From mysticowl at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 00:04:05 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:04:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Half Blood, Pure Blood--Help Pease In-Reply-To: References: <29873-429C99C8-1040@storefull-3312.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129807 Now you guys got me thinking. I remember wondering a while ago if a child of a witch/wizard and a muggle who's not magical is called a squib or a muggle. Now, I'm wondering if two squibs get together and have a magical child, is that child considered muggleborn or not? I still don't have a clear idea of whether squibs are normally part of the magical world or not. We have Filch and Figgs, one exists fully in the magical world and the other is in contact with it, her life in the muggle world seems to be a front. On the other hand, Ronald has that distant relative who's an accountant, is he a squib or a muggle related through marriage? If a squib, then he's an example of one who's not part of the magical world. Assuming that squibs are part of the magical world, then I guess a magical child of two squibs would not be called muggleborn, right? Alina, who just confused herself. From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Wed Jun 1 00:25:28 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:25:28 -0000 Subject: Mystified by the new JKR FAQ Poll! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "caesian" wrote: > Ceasia wrote: > These days, it seems that I simply enjoy reading the messages and > theories of others, and only post when I am absolutely gob-smacked > by something Potter-related. Or perhaps rather Potter-fan-related. > Can 56% of Potter fans really be wrong? Perhaps someone here at > HPfGUs can help me out. Max responds: I think a lot of people assume the FAQ won't be answered until after the book is released, but I'll eat my hat if that is the case. :) Why would she even bother with questions 1 & 2 if she wasn't planning on possibly answering them before HBP publication? I think people also feel that we'll find out the answers to 1 & 2 in six weeks anyway, so why not choose the question that might *not* be addressed in Book 6. Personally, I'll choose the bigger spoiler any day! I still haven't decided if I'll vote for 1 or 2. Max From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 00:59:30 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:59:30 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129809 Jen Reese: So let's say for argument's sake that canon supports Legilimens! Lupin. Why wait to tell Harry and the readers? One strong possibility is we're going to hear more backstory about Lupin in the next two books, like where exactly he went after Hogwarts, why his best friends suspected he was the spy, and how he became an expert in DADA. If this is true, then it makes sense we will hear about becoming a Legilimens in the context of Lupin's magical development post-Hogwarts. Alla: Jen, this is all your fault :-), but I am indeed posting my speculation, which I raised earlier but in a bit different aspect. If Lupin is indeed a Legilimenc and I am finally convinced that it is likely, I think it is possible that he was one of the Dumbledore's spies during those twelve years we know nothing about. It is also a possibility, IMO, that he started spying during Voldemort's first rise and one of the reasons why James and Sirius suspected him. Who knows, maybe they spotted him in the company of suspected DE or something. I do think that we will discover that Snape was not the only spy. After all dear Fudge in PoA says that "Dumbledore , who was of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies" - PoA, p.204, paperback. So, if Dumbledore had many spies I think it is reasonable to assume that we will be introduced to at least one more of them and for quite some time Remus stroke me as a very good candidate for that. Just my opinion, Alla From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 1 01:18:13 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:18:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429D0CD5.6040904@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 129811 Lupinlore wrote: >>I suspect that JKR was taken aback by the deep dislike many fans expressed toward Angry!Harry in OOTP. Indeed, it is the main complaint one reads on fan sites about OOTP. >> >> >> >>BG writes: >>I for one do not understand why so many are surprised at Harry acting >>like a teenage boy - HE IS ONE. His character would not be believable >>any other way either by teens or by adults. Teen readers identify >>with him and his feelings. >> >> >>I hope she keeps the angry, questioning, moody yet - loyal and kind >>Harry. He is afterall only 16 in this next book. 14 - 17 were my >>kids most explosive years. According to JKR Harry has much more >>hardships and challenges in store for him so things are not going to >>ease up on him. >> I'm going to jump in here with my first post -- so excited to find this list! Anyway. I too am surprised that many people would have a problem with Angry!Harry. Well, I understand it -- my own husband doesn't like it, he's a very sensitive sort and all that negativity is difficult for him to read. But I love it. If Harry were sailing through all these hardships... from learning his parents were murdered, to dealing with fame, to dealing with infamy... being shunned by peers, accused of evil doings, accused of madness, accused of being an attention-seeker... to being physically attacked on numerous occasions, to being emotionally attacked... to finally find the joy of a happy family father-figure, to having it brutally and unjustly ripped from under him before the relationship even really had a chance to get started... to learning that his idolized parents might not have been so perfect as he believed... to being ignored by the one authority figure he depended on the most (Dumbledore)... to being *psychically* attacked by the greatest dark wizard ever known... I mean, if he were all bright and chipper and positive through all that, this wouldn't be a great adventure or coming-of-age story. It would just be a cartoon. I really and totally appreciate that she is brave enough to take us down this dark road. Harry has been thrown a whole lot of garbage in his life, and he will have to face his demons. I also think it's possible that the connection between Harry and Voldemort, especially strong in OOTP, is contributing to his being prone to anger, negativity, and longing for glory. Voldemort gave part of himself to Harry that night in GH... part of his power (eg parseltongue) and part of his self. Harry does have something that Voldemort never had, as Dumbledore tells him in the Ministry, which we presume to be love or something along those lines, which will keep the Voldemort-side of Harry's personality from gaining control. But with Voldemort in actual contact with him, this side of him was strengthened. And I don't think it's finished yet. I think this exchange of personalities goes both ways. When Harry told Dumbledore that Voldemort had used Harry's blood in his resurrection magic, he thought he saw a glimpse of triumph in Dumbledore's expression. This hasn't been mentioned again... there's been no explanation yet as to WHY this would be important to Dumbledore. It has the unfortunate effect that Voldemort CAN now harm Harry, but I suspect it will also mean that some of Harry's strengths (love, loyalty, compassion) will have transfered to Voldemort, and will subtly interfere with his powers, in effect weakening him. heather the buzzard From mysticowl at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 01:51:24 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:51:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest: Rules Repost In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530634DC06@mimas> References: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530634DC06@mimas> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129813 Compulsory Predictions: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? A lot of people seem to think Percy, but I say either Charlie or Bill, leaning most towards Charlie. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) You know, I don't think it's a person at all. I think it could be a name of a plant, or perhaps an animal of some sort. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) If she had one, I'd say that she was communicating with Petunia working to arrange adoption of Harry should something happen to her and James. I'm probably wrong. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The real Moody. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I don't really think any of the currently known characters fit here, but the one I think is most likely is Ginny. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I'm going with Mrs. Bones as well. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Just to be a rebel, I don't think it's a pensieve, I think it's a magical object we haven't seen before. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yep. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Nope. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Six. Optional Predictions. 1. Ron will become Quidditch captain halfway through the book when the team realizes that he has a natural talent as a strategist that makes him better at the job than the current captain. 2. Dumbledore's Army will continue to exist alongside normal DADA lessons as an extracurricular club/activity. 3. Kreatcher will be in service of Narcissa Malfoy (there might be a cameo of him in that role, or it might simply be mentioned by someone) 4. We'll see Harry visit his parents' graves. 5. We'll find out more details about Neville's early life - where was he while his parents were tortured, was a Memory charm put on him, etc. Alina. From fiscused at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 01:52:38 2005 From: fiscused at yahoo.com (fiscused) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 01:52:38 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Neville and Ginny (was: Harry and Ginny Weasley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129814 Melissa: > Ginny also defends Neville on the train to Hogwarts, albeit from himself. In > the Luna Lovegood chapter Harry and Neville have just seen Luna for the first > time. Nev: Yes, I've wondered if that's a sign of affection, or JKR letting us see some of what the "new" Ginny is capable of. Or reminding us of Neville's lack of confidence. Or something else. There's so many possibilities in even such a simple scene...course that's what makes it fun! > Melissa: > Oh I think he does have a larger role to play just not as Voldemort's > defeater . Nev: I think so too. Then some days I think that's just what JKR wants me to think. Then I think something else. Then I think I was right in the first place... Whatever happens, I bet I'll be surprized. Nev From mysticowl at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 02:01:40 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:01:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: <429D0CD5.6040904@sympatico.ca> References: <429D0CD5.6040904@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129815 BG wrote: "I hope she keeps the angry, questioning, moody yet - loyal and kind Harry. " I think right you summarized why I'm one of the people that has a big problem with Angry!Harry - he's not kind and loyal anymore! He keeps on getting on his friends' cases, lashing out at them and acting like they're doing wrong by him. "What do they understand, stupid Ron, stupid Hermione, I'm the great Harry, how dare they act like they know anything about how hard my life is." Remember that scene where Ginny basically calls Harry stupid for forgetting that she's the only person he knows who's been possessed by Voldemort? Harry keeps on acting like he's the only person who goes through hardships or does anything worth while and even the above-mentioned scene didn't wake him up to the reality that there are other people out there who know things he doens't. Alina. From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 1 01:58:28 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:58:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429D1644.5090200@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 129816 flyingmonkeypurple wrote: >Ok does anyone think that it is really weird that Hagrid is half >giant? It's kind of imposible to be half-giant. Not to get >inappropriate or anything but She huge and it's not posible. Maybe >because she was writing this for kids they would not catch this part. >Or Unless their is some other way to have a baby when your a witch. I >just have a problem with this it's weird > Heehee... I agree it's weird. But apparently it's not impossible! Hagrid's mother was a giantess (not a witch BTW, his father was a wizard). Perhaps the females are slightly smaller than the males? Hmm. Grawp was considered a 'runt' in his tribe. Perhaps their mum was small as giants go? Well, Hagrid's dad seemed to adore her, so I'm sure he found a way to make it work. Perhaps an engorgement spell was all that was necessary? And at any rate, she seemed less than impressed with the whole deal in the end, and ran off. So not impossible, but not all that common either. As for the whole no-one-knew-he-was-a-half-giant thing, I hardly think that a giantess actually living with a local wizard and bearing his child would go unnoticed. It happened a long time ago, and was probably not freely talked about, so it's not surprising that none of the KIDS would know. But I suspect the elder folk did. heather the buzzard From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 02:17:43 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 02:17:43 -0000 Subject: Harry not kind and loyal anymore? Was:Re: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129817 BG wrote: > "I hope she keeps the angry, questioning, moody yet - loyal and kind Harry. " Alina: I think right you summarized why I'm one of the people that has a big problem with Angry!Harry - he's not kind and loyal anymore! He keeps on getting on his friends' cases, lashing out at them and acting like they're doing wrong by him. "What do they understand, stupid Ron, stupid Hermione, I'm the great Harry, how dare they act like they know anything about how hard my life is." Alla: Well, certainly Harry is not very kind for the most part of OOP, IMO. But I am one of those who think that besides the fact that it is very understandable phase of the teenager development, Harry was justified in acting the way he did. He was put through a horrible ordeal at the end of GoF and he was kept from contacts with his friends all summer along,w hile that could have helped to ease the trauma. He unwillingly participated in voldemort's return and he was kept in the dark about anything what was happening by the man he trusted unconditionally - Dumbledore. I also don't remember the examples of Harry acting like "I am the great Harry". He WAS lashing out on Ron and Hermione, true and no, they did not deserve it, but I think that true friends should stand by each other even when their friend is not acting too maturely, to put it mildly. Ron and Hermione for the most part patiently let Harry run his mouth at them, because ( IMO) they understood Harry's need to let his frustration out. Good for them. :-) I said before that I consider this friendship to be one of the most touching friendships I ever read about in fiction.\ They ALL had been acting immaturely throughout the books. Remember how badly was Harry hurt when Ron refused to believe him in GoF? Remember Hermione in PoA? Well, this book was Hary's turn to show some immaturity. I think he was entitled to it. :-) Just me of course. So, Harry was not kind, but could you give me the examples of his disloyalty? To me disloyalty means much more than screaming at one's friends and I cannot remeber any examples of Harry's disloyalty. Alina: Remember that scene where Ginny basically calls Harry stupid for forgetting that she's the only person he knows who's been possessed by Voldemort? Alla: Yep, he forgot and did feel bad when Ginny called him on it. There are NOT that many people by the way who knows what it means to be possessed by Voldie. So far we know about only two. Alina: Harry keeps on acting like he's the only person who goes through hardships or does anything worth while and even the above-mentioned scene didn't wake him up to the reality that there are other people out there who know things he doens't. Alla: On the contrary, I think that throuout the book Harry's reality was he knew that other people know things he does not and won't tell him. I honestly don't ask you to like OOP! Harry. I know that not everybody did. I love him much more after OOP, personally. Just my opinion and my opinion only, Alla. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 04:11:12 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 04:11:12 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129818 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > If Lupin is indeed a Legilimenc and I am finally convinced that it > is likely, I think it is possible that he was one of the > Dumbledore's spies during those twelve years we know nothing about. > > It is also a possibility, IMO, that he started spying during > Voldemort's first rise and one of the reasons why James and Sirius > suspected him. Who knows, maybe they spotted him in the company of > suspected DE or something. > > I do think that we will discover that Snape was not the only spy. Jen: I'm so curious find out why James & Sirius suspected Lupin. One good theory Entropy put forth was that Lupin was of Eastern European descent and spent the first war in that area recruiting. (There was more to her theory involving Prague and some symbolism there, but it escapes me now). If Lupin was living away from his friends at the time, it would be easier to suspect him than Peter. Because there Peter is, sitting between James and Lily in that Order photo, looking like a dear friend and loyal Order member. Creepy. And Lupin was nowhere to be seen in that photo, even though he was clearly one of the Old Crowd according to Dumbledore. I think you're right that he must have been a spy during the first war. And as the sphinx tells us in GOF: "First think of the person who lives in disguise, who deals in secrets and tells naught lies." If Lupin was a spy, he was undoubtedly doing strange things that mystified his friends. Perhaps Lupin was also working undercover as a professor at the time, in a wizard school where being a werewolf was overlooked. It would explain all of Lupin's knowledge of DADA, dark creatures and the Professor R.J. Lupin satchel. Such intrigue! I hope Lupin isn't like Dudley in the end, a 'what you see is what you get' character and we hear no more backstory. Jen From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 04:51:55 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 04:51:55 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Neville and Ginny (was: Harry and Ginny Weasley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129819 Melissa wrote: Ginny also defends Neville on the train to Hogwarts, albeit from himself. In the Luna Lovegood chapter Harry and Neville have just seen Luna for the first time. Nev replied: Yes, I've wondered if that's a sign of affection, or JKR letting us see some of what the "new" Ginny is capable of. Or reminding us of Neville's lack of confidence. Or something else. There's so many possibilities in even such a simple scene...course that's what makes it fun! *Marcela adds now: Just for kicks, in a shipping debate site we found a scene in PoA with a possible Neville/Ginny foreshadowing. It's when the Dementors get into the train on the way to Hogwarts. Neville came into the three friends' compartment and sat down, while the lights were off. Soon after, Ginny walks in bumping into Hermione: "...'Who's that?' 'Ginny?' 'Hermione?' 'What are you doing?' 'I was looking for Ron-' 'Come in and sit down-' 'Not here!' said Harry hurriedly. 'I'm here!' 'Ouch!' said Neville. ..." PoA Schol.ed. p/b page 82. It's funny the way Jo put it, :) I'm not a Neville/Ginny shipper, but I saw some Neville -> Ginny in OoTP. Marcela From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 05:38:12 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 05:38:12 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129820 Frankly I do not understand the people who didn't like Harry in the OOP book. And I am shocked by that, in fact. My god, the kid has been though more than most adults in a lifetime. What do people want to see him do instead? Take drugs, kill himself or something? He is angry, good! He has, as I have said before, PTSD and I would not think that JKR was any good as a writer if Harry didn't show some signs of that after everything that happened in the graveyard. All in all I think that Harry, with the help of DD and Molly at the end of GOF and his friends in OOP, has come through it all rather well. I also think that we are going to see Harry come to the breaking point in HBP and as Lupinlore said some won't like it. But I say to them "watch, listen and learn". I think that JKR is a great teacher. And she is teaching about life and how to live it and how to handle the ups and downs without becoming LV in the process. I also think that the fact that the books are "children's" books give us all a chance to listen and learn without feeling talked down to. I know that I have learned a lot from watching Harry and listening to the wisdom of DD. Whatever our age there is something that we can take away from the books that will make us a better person. There is a time for everything under heaven, as the saying goes. And this means there is a time to cry, to scream, to swear, to be angry, and all of us must (if we are *real*) sometimes have to say that we are sorry to even our closest friends. I think that JKR has done an excellent job of portraying a mentally health young man on his way to become a truly great human being. But first, things are going to get rather ugly in the next book. I would expect it. He might even have thoughts of turning to the dark side, but he won't. Tonks_op From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 1 06:41:25 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 06:41:25 -0000 Subject: Half Blood, Pure Blood--Help Pease In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129821 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Alina wrote: Alina: > Now you guys got me thinking. I remember wondering a while ago if a > child of a witch/wizard and a muggle who's not magical is called a > squib or a muggle. Geoff: Canon suggests that squib would be the correct word... '"And what on earth's a Squib?" said Harry. To his surprise, Ron stifled a snigger. "Well - it's not funny really - but as it's Filch.." he said. "A Squib is someone who was born into a wizarding family but hasn't got any magic powers. Kind of the opposite of Muggle-born wizards but Squibs are quite unusual..."' (COS "The Writing on the Wall" pp.110/11 UK edition) From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 07:14:37 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:14:37 -0000 Subject: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129822 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Lattes" wrote: > > > > Raised by a very elderly widower > > and Death Eater father, > Chys: > > That makes it sound like two people. I was wondering if he wasn't > somehow related to Snape, any ideas? > > Chys bboyminn: I think the quote above is intended to read - 'Raised by a father who is an elderly widower and a Death Eater.' So, I think it's one person who is both a widower and Death Eater. As far as being related to Snape, that is possible and even somewhat likely, but I'm not so sure it's significant. Not significant in how closely they are related (distant cousins) and possibly not significant to the story. I guess only time will confirm this idea. Steve/bboyminn From jaanise at hello.lv Wed Jun 1 08:13:52 2005 From: jaanise at hello.lv (JanisE) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:13:52 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid In-Reply-To: <429D1644.5090200@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20050601081400.E7889ABB62@mail.livas.lv> No: HPFGUIDX 129823 ----------------------------------------- From: heather the buzzard So not impossible, but not all that common either. ----------------------------------------- Jaanis: Yes, I suppose folks of the WW sometimes do this. Another example would be Madame Maxime. ^_^ From jaanise at hello.lv Wed Jun 1 08:26:43 2005 From: jaanise at hello.lv (JanisE) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:26:43 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050601082652.20AC9ABB65@mail.livas.lv> No: HPFGUIDX 129824 ---------------------------------------------- From: lilhogan86 ---------------------------------------------- This leaves me wondering how T. Nott's mother died--whether it was through something related to LV/DE (which would maybe explain him ending up to be the "Good Slytherin", but I can't imagine him living with his DE father in that case). Otherwise, do we know specifically what other things people in the WW can die from? Accidents? Hexes? Falling off a broomstick? Jaanis: I don't really see Theodore Nott as the "good Slytherin". He's just cleverer than Draco and doesn't feel the need to join his gang (or any other gang for that matter). His father _is_ Death Eater after all, and it looks like he's OK with it. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 09:21:27 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 02:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry not kind and loyal anymore? Was:Re: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050601092127.90924.qmail@web32714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129825 Alla wrote: Well, certainly Harry is not very kind for the most part of OOP, IMO. But I am one of those who think that besides the fact that it is very understandable phase of the teenager development, Harry was justified in acting the way he did. I also don't remember the examples of Harry acting like "I am the great Harry". He WAS lashing out on Ron and Hermione, true and no, they did not deserve it, but I think that true friends should stand by each other even when their friend is not acting too maturely, to put it mildly. Lynn: I think if I were in Harry's shoes I would feel like they did deserve it. He expected loyalty from them and instead felt betrayed that they didn't tell him anything and that had to hurt. Hermione had already figured out that Harry would be angry - just as any of them would had positions been reversed. I would feel betrayed that they were willing to "give me up" just to be on the inside. Ron and Hermione promised not to tell Harry anything and yet, when it was Harry who would be getting information, Ron's first expectation was that Harry would tell him everything. I've wondered if Ron's faltering there is because he's wondering if it will be Harry's "payback" or if because Ron finally realized just why Harry felt the way he did. Alla wrote: Yep, he forgot and did feel bad when Ginny called him on it. There are NOT that many people by the way who knows what it means to be possessed by Voldie. So far we know about only two. Lynn: I also think it is understandable that Harry forgot. Voldemort keeps focusing on Harry - not on Ginny or Ron or whossits. In addition, Harry is feeling incredible guilty because he didn't understand what was going on and, again, information that would have eased his mind was not forthcoming. Alla wrote: Alina: Harry keeps on acting like he's the only person who goes through hardships or does anything worth while and even the above-mentioned scene didn't wake him up to the reality that there are other people out there who know things he doens't. Alla: On the contrary, I think that throuout the book Harry's reality was he knew that other people know things he does not and won't tell him. Lynn: I agree, which increases the frustration level particularly as he has to feel manipulated. The ones he trusted, Dumbledore, Sirius and Lupin, keep telling him what to do without explaining anything. It's not so much what they know about other things as much as what they know as it pertains to him and still won't tell him. I'd put it down to his age except I wonder how many of us wouldn't feel that same way if we were in Harry's position - grief-stricken, guilt-ridden, knowing something strange is happening to us and yet those people most likely to help with the answers just won't do it. It seems to me that Harry is expected to act like an adult and yet continues to be treated as a child. At the end, Dumbledore acknowledges that this was a mistake - his mistake. How differently might Harry have acted had he been given the information which pertained to him early on. For example, how would any of us feel to discover we've been under surveillance by someone we trust for a long period of time. I think I'd feel as if they didn't trust me. He knows people are talking about him yet why aren't they talking to him. Also, how much of that anger would have been avoided had Harry received proper attention after GOF. Here he is, barely escaping with this life, seeing Cedric die, feeling responsible for his death, then sent off back to the Dursleys to try to sort out all those feelings for himself and in addition having the worry of Voldemort being back and also feeling responsible for that. I think Harry did quite well to hold it together as much as he did. Alla wrote: I honestly don't ask you to like OOP! Harry. I know that not everybody did. I love him much more after OOP, personally. Lynn: I agree, I love Harry more after OOP. He became real. test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 09:22:46 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:22:46 -0000 Subject: Meaning of honour (was:Re: House Elves and justice, etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129826 > a_svirn: > > Try another dictionary. If yours skip such obvious meanings of > honour as `elevated position of rank', `quality of rightness and > moral superiority' it can't be a very good one. Finwitch: Something I read somewhere - you can put me behind locks and tie me up and you could not hold me. But if you drew a line around me and I gave my word not to cross it, that line would hold me for that is honour. - Interesting to have an escaped prisoner like Sirius, in the series... particularly in OOP. Guess he promised Dumbledore to stay put in GP12 (after that trip to London, perhaps?) unless *Harry needs him* and that's what kept him until Harry needed him in the Ministry. I'd go by the quality of rightness - or *moral* superiority. Even someone sentenced to death (and thus supposedly of the lowest) can act with honour - you know, like a martyr would. What say you - 'elevated position of rank'? I guess it is considered an hounour to be knighted or something and that the one in higher rank is expected to act honourably particularly towards those below him in rank. As for house-elves, I believe some, if not most of them (like Winky) consider it an honour AND pleasure to serve. (why does the phrase sound so familiar?) Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 09:39:49 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:39:49 -0000 Subject: Half Blood, Pure Blood--Help Pease In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Alina wrote: > > Alina: > > Now you guys got me thinking. I remember wondering a while ago if a > > child of a witch/wizard and a muggle who's not magical is called a > > squib or a muggle. > > Geoff: > Canon suggests that squib would be the correct word... > > '"And what on earth's a Squib?" said Harry. > To his surprise, Ron stifled a snigger. > "Well - it's not funny really - but as it's Filch.." he said. "A Squib > is someone who was born into a wizarding family but hasn't got any > magic powers. Kind of the opposite of Muggle-born wizards but Squibs > are quite unusual..."' > (COS "The Writing on the Wall" pp.110/11 UK edition) Finwitch: The BIGGEST difference between a squib and a muggle, is that a squib has always known about the magical world and more or less ignorant about Muggle-world whereas muggles are ignorant of magic world - until and unless a magical child is born into their family. Actually, I've wondered whether a muggle becomes a squib trough gaining a magical child into his/her family, but when Hermione says in OOP -- 'prefect is something they can understand'. - I'd say that a Squib understands magic, having seen it in use in everyday life as a child... What I wonder, is Petunia. JKR tells us (when asked if she's a squib) "no, she's a muggle, but.." - but- since Lily, Petunia's sister, was magical, Petunia *knows* about as much of magic as much as a Squib does. BUT - since Petunia rejected all that magic-business (and married a big muggle like Vernon) including her sister, she's a Muggle. In her case, it's a matter of *attitude* rather than awareness. Finwitch From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 1 10:33:54 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:33:54 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Alina wrote: Alina: > I think right you summarized why I'm one of the people that has a big > problem with Angry!Harry - he's not kind and loyal anymore! He keeps > on getting on his friends' cases, lashing out at them and acting like > they're doing wrong by him. "What do they understand, stupid Ron, > stupid Hermione, I'm the great Harry, how dare they act like they know > anything about how hard my life is." Remember that scene where Ginny > basically calls Harry stupid for forgetting that she's the only person > he knows who's been possessed by Voldemort? Harry keeps on acting like > he's the only person who goes through hardships or does anything worth > while and even the above-mentioned scene didn't wake him up to the > reality that there are other people out there who know things he > doens't. Geoff: I feel that there are many factors to be taken into account here - as several other contributors have pointed out. He is a teenager, at a difficult age in the no man's land between childhood and adulthood when, as someone else said, he is expected to act like an adult and is treated as a child. He is unique in that he is the only person who has faced up to Voldemort (in his various incarnations) five times and lived to tell the tale. He can be forgiven for forgetting Ginny's experience - which was about two and a half years previous to the events of Book 5. He has been deprived of information which involved him. I can remember getting very angry when I was a Head of Department in my school when decisions were made which affected my teaching programme and my departmental facilities and were almost presented to me as a fait accompli if a colleague hadn't warned me privately. It is very easy for anyone to feel that they are going through it on their own and no one else knows or understands - or cares. I am sure that many of us have had moments like that. Another personal memory which comes back to me was about 25 years ago when my wife went through a period of severe depression. Many friends did not know how stressful this was and made encouraging (but useless) noises. It was only when I found out that a colleague at school had been through the same traumas that I was able to talk about it and feel that someone really understood. Several months ago, we discussed this question of Harry's reactions in OOTP and, in message 118574, I started a thread entitled "Harry's developing behaviour - average or unique?" As part of that opening post, I wrote: "What about him in OOTP? I said earlier that at 11, things are black and white. It is as we approach our teens that the grey areas begin to creep in. People we have looked up to as marvellous ? maybe even parents or grandparents ? suddenly have occasions when they let us down, embarrass us and try to continue directing our lives as they did when we were younger. Teens want room to flex their muscles ? physically, behaviourally and socially ? and like to spend time pushing at the barriers and seeing if they can be prised open a little further. And with it can come the tempers and the outbursts. I know about that ? I had red hair (then!). Both my sons went through spells like this in their mid-teens. My elder son was dreadful; we didn't dare take him anywhere. He was angry, moody, sullen and anti-social. Today, he is happily married and working towards a doctorate in Theology as a mature student. My younger son lived on a short fuse for years (as did our nerves). Something would displease him and there would be a minor volcanic eruption. He would address us in capital letters and then stomp off to his room; you could tell by The diminishing sounds of doors being slammed hard where he was. He is now a highly-paid computer consultant used to making measured decisions for companies. OK, so Harry had extra reasons for blowing his top over and above the usual pressures of adolescence but much of what he does and thinks are in part the normal behaviour and development of average teenage males. Will Harry revert to being like he was before his outburst years? No. But he will return to being more civilised. He will not return to the unquestioning and na?ve Harry of 11 but he will be the experienced and worldy-wise Harry of 17 or 18 growing into adulthood. This is How it works out in the real world and I see this as being the same for the Wizarding World. Let's stop trying to label Harry as a freak and consider him as a normal teenager for whom the screw has been turned a notch or so tighter than normal." From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Wed Jun 1 10:40:45 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:40:45 -0000 Subject: Killing and murdering in the UK WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129829 Once again I have to apologise for my ongoing inability to snip like a civilised person. But, on the subject of why LV is said to have 'murdered' rather than 'killed' the senior Potters, I would say as a speaker of British English that you murder people in cold blood, in accordance with a plan. It is your specific intention to murder them and only them. If you kill, it might be accidental or random, or it might be in battle - Sirius was veiled in a fair fight, and the right word there would be 'kill', regardless of the personal issues that were also involved. So interesting, sometimes, how the language of books can raise these issues that we (on opposite sides of the English language divide!) would never otherwise think about. Deborah, in her language-sorting hat From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 12:11:06 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:11:06 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129830 Jen wrote (about Entropy's theory) > And Lupin was nowhere to be seen in that photo, even though he was > clearly one of the Old Crowd according to Dumbledore. Ginger: Oh, Jen, I hate to pull the legs out of your cockroach clusters, but Lupin was in the photo in question. US hardcover, ch. 9, p. 174. (Moody speaking): ...and that's Emmeline Vance, you've met her, and that there's Lupin, obviously... Benjy Fenwick, he copped it too... So he was there. Sorry. It is on a page turn and easy to miss. Ginger, who thinks Lupin is a huggybunny. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 13:01:16 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:01:16 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129831 > Ginger: > Oh, Jen, I hate to pull the legs out of your cockroach clusters, but > Lupin was in the photo in question. > > US hardcover, ch. 9, p. 174. > > (Moody speaking): ...and that's Emmeline Vance, you've met her, and > that there's Lupin, obviously... Benjy Fenwick, he copped it too... > > So he was there. Sorry. Jen: Oh dear, that was actually *my* part of the theory too. Ahem, well....a revision ;). So Lupin was in the picture. But you'll notice he's seated quite far away from Sirirus, James, Lily and Pettigrew, who are all grouped together according to Moody's description. Lupin's back from doing whatever mysterious work he was up to in the first war, probably the same work that keeps pulling him away from Grimmauld in OOTP. And the split is happening, James and Sirius have fingered him as the spy in the Order and he's no longer part of their tight little group. And he may very well be a spy in the Order, doing inexplicable tasks that worry the others, but of course they are misreading his actions. Which we know is canon for the first war: "Imagine that Voldemort's powerful now. You don't know who his supporters are, you don't know who's working for him and who isn't; you know he can control people so that they do terrible things without being able to stop themselves..." (GOF, US, chap. 27, p. 527) > Ginger, who thinks Lupin is a huggybunny. Jen, who completely agrees. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 1 13:13:47 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:13:47 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129832 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > Jen wrote (about Entropy's theory) > > And Lupin was nowhere to be seen in that photo, even though he was > > clearly one of the Old Crowd according to Dumbledore. > > Ginger: > Oh, Jen, I hate to pull the legs out of your cockroach clusters, but > Lupin was in the photo in question. > > Ginger, who thinks Lupin is a huggybunny. Pippin: Huggybunny my foot. But since Jen asked for explanations other than EverSoEvil!Lupin, I'll just point out that Sirius's suspicion of his old friend isn't the only thing besides legilimency/occlumency that needs explaining. In no particular order: Why does Lupin seem unaffected by the dementor on the train? What was Lupin doing for twelve years between GH and Book Three? Why is he afraid of Trelawney? What's so funny about a cockroach? Is his boggart really a full moon or does the "silvery orb" represent something else? Why is Lupin absent on Christmas day in PoA when it shouldn't be full moon yet? How predictable is the period of transformation? If it's not predictable, how could the prank work? Why did Snape think Lupin was in on the prank? Why isn't Lupin in any of Harry's photos? Why wasn't Lupin at Harry's christening? What is Lupin doing for the Order? Why does Lupin's case say "Professor R. J. Lupin" in peeling gold letters, if he's never had paid work? When Lupin leapt between Harry and Malfoy at the ministry battle, why didn't Malfoy curse him? Pippin From tab1669 at elnet.com Wed Jun 1 02:31:56 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 02:31:56 -0000 Subject: Hagrid In-Reply-To: <429D1644.5090200@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129833 flyingmonkeypurple wrote: > >Ok does anyone think that it is really weird that Hagrid is half > >giant? It's kind of imposible to be half-giant. Not to get > >inappropriate or anything but She huge and it's not posible. > >Maybe because she was writing this for kids they would not catch > >this part. Or Unless their is some other way to have a baby when > >your a witch. I just have a problem with this it's weird Heather the buzzerd wrote: > Heehee... I agree it's weird. But apparently it's not impossible! > > Hagrid's mother was a giantess (not a witch BTW, his father was a > wizard). Perhaps the females are slightly smaller than the males? Flying monkeypurple: I know she is a giant I meant a different way for a giant to have a baby. Also I thought giants did not like wizards. Don't you think that the giants would not like the fact that she is with a wizard. Just some food for thought. flyingmonkeypurple From kgpopp at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 04:47:49 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 04:47:49 -0000 Subject: House Elves and justice, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > You seem to imply that honour, integrity, values etc. is something > inherent to human (or elfish as the case may be) beings. Well, they > are not. They are culturally constructed concepts and they are > nurtured. You may be by nature calm, bad-tempered, kind, cruel etc. > but you, even if you are free modern human being, can't be > dignified or honourable by nature. This is something you learn to > be in the course of your life and education. Draco can be naturally > arrogant and even cruel, but he cannot be "naturally" prejudiced > against muggles. This is something he has learned. Hermione can be > naturally kind-hearted and brave, but she cannot be "naturally > principled". She must have acquired these principles together with > the knowledge of alphabet and numbers. > > Suppose you were captured and made slave (which God forbid, of > course). You would try to preserve your dignity; you would cling to > that quote from Eleanor Roosevelt, you would remind yourself that > so long as you have you free will your spirit is not broken. But > suppose you were born slave? More importantly, raised as one? > Suppose you never heard of dignity much less of Eleanor Roosevelt? > Suppose you grew up among other poor wretches and were taught since > when you could remember that you are lowly sort? That you are by > nature slave? That God himself ordained it so that you and all your > kin exist only for a purpose to serve your masters? You'd have to > possess a really exceptional personality to withstand the pressure > of convention, I am afraid. Dobby has, but then he *is* exceptional > (or a weirdo, depends on one's point of view). > > As for honour or justice ? it's simply mockery to apply these > terms to slaves. Honour implies superiority both moral and social. > Justice implies authority both in terms morality and in terms of > power. Slaves are inferior (socially and according to > convention "naturally") and subject to their masters' authority. Kristen Again: Good point I did not mean to imply that honor, integrity, or a person's values are inherent to human. I totally agree that these are learned behaviors. I'll even agree that if I were born a slave into a society where Slaves where common it is a very good possiblity that I would accept my circumstance and even think I was inferior to my owner or the ruling class. However I still think that in this case I can still act with honor and dignity if I hold true to my values and beliefs and take pride in the work and things I do. I'm not saying that I'd see myself as having the same rank or level of honor that my owner my have. But I can still act with honor. Now depending on the beliefs I've been taught, other may or may not find my actions to be honorable but that is also true of a person who is free. (I don't think I'll convince you of this and that is okay.) 2nd, not sure if you agree with my point about free will but... Even I were condemned to the situation to which you describe I would still argue that I have free will. I may be trained or brought up to do as I'm told, but in the end my actions are still my choice no matter how much pressure the environment exerts on me. I may feel that I have no choice, and I may never decide to do what I want but I stand by my arguement that I do have a choice. (Assuming that is that I'm not under the Imperius Curse. :-) 3rd and last I would argue that given humans and other cognizant beings ability to learn and adapt; I still hold that some who are born into slavery will challenge the situation (If not physically at least mentally). And if they challenge the assumptions, I think it is possible for a slave to decided that they are not naturally inferior. I see a multitude of ways this could happen: - They could see that there are differences in skills and abilities within the ruling class and differences in skills and values of slaves and draw a conclusion that if educated and trained that they could do more. - They could just have a really stupid owner and come to realize that they and other slaves tend to make better decisions. - They could have a parent or owner who instills in them idea that they can do anything if they work at it. Again: I won't go so far as to claim that this is necessarily wide spread or common but . I do think it is part of human nature to learn and adapt so I do think over time slaves could question the assumptions on which slavery is founded. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 1 13:26:23 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:26:23 -0000 Subject: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: <20050601082652.20AC9ABB65@mail.livas.lv> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129835 >>Lilhogan/Lauren wrote n Post #129782: snip I guess that the fact JKR said "very elderly widower" leans towards Nott having an older mother as well, but I'm also not sure if women in the WW can have children at an older age. This leaves me wondering how T. Nott's mother died--whether it was through something related to LV/DE (which would maybe explain him ending up to be the "Good Slytherin", but I can't imagine him living with his DE father in that case). Otherwise, do we know specifically what other things people in the WW can die from? Accidents? Hexes? Falling off a broomstick? Snip Potioncat: Welcome to our group! We don't know whether Nott's mother was old or young or in between. I'm assuming her death is the one he saw (he can see Threstrals) JKR hasn't given us any clue about Mrs. Nott's cause of death. Luna's mother died in a magical accident. I'm sure there could be magical illnesses, accidents, or even murder. >>Inkling wrote about Tom Riddle's birth in #129794 snip No, of course not, but again, speaking just for myself, I'd be surprised if a mediwizard even in the 20's and 30's could not prevent death from happening in the first place, especially in the case of childbirth. Potioncat: I thought she either had the child in a Muggle hospital or at the Muggle orphanage. It's very likely that Muggle treatments wouldn't work on a witch. But even with today's technology, pregnancy and childbirth are not the safest experiences in the world. In #129832, which I can't seem to make my computer copy and paste, Steve and Chys discussed if Nott could be related to Snape. That idea actually came up a long time ago, before we knew the weedy boy was Nott, even before we knew Nott was raised by a widower. The idea came from both Theo Nott and young Snape being described in weed-like terms. Of course, there are several groups of descriptions that run through the WW and it's hard to tell if a family relationship is being implied. A relationship to Snape might have an impact if for some reason Theodore's situation becomes important to the plot. For example, if his mother is dead and his father is in Azkaban, where will he go over the Holiday and does it impact Harry in some way? OTOH, your standard HP fan --and if you're reading this, you are not a standard fan? has never read about Nott's father being a widower, would most likely not remember the two weed descriptions, and might not recognize the name Theodore Nott. >>Jaanis wrote: I don't really see Theodore Nott as the "good Slytherin". He's just cleverer than Draco and doesn't feel the need to join his gang (or any other gang for that matter). His father _is_ Death Eater after all, and it looks like he's OK with it. Potioncat: We know that Theo Nott was reading the Quibbler with Draco in the library. He's part of the Slytherins in the classes, but he doesn't seem to hang around with Draco at other times. We know he didn't join in on the hexing party on the train when Draco, Crabbe and Goyle attacked Harry. We don't know what his relationship with his father was like. Or if that will matter. Seems the less we know, the more we can project and imagine and the more fun it is! Potioncat From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Wed Jun 1 07:59:01 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:59:01 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: <429D0CD5.6040904@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129836 This is my first time here (although I have been reading these posts for quite some time)... BG writes: > I for one do not understand why so many are surprised at Harry > acting like a teenage boy - HE IS ONE. His character would not be > believable any other way either by teens or by adults. Teen > readers identify with him and his feelings. I completely agree...I know this is fictional, but any teenager that goes through torture and witnesses death is bound to have to go into trauma counselling and would possibly suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder for years. I actually think that Harry wasn't at all as angry as he should or could have been. There has been no support at all in regards to what HArry has experienced, the only release I can remember was when he cried on Molly's shoulder in the hospital ward of Hogwarts. I think his venting is very real (if anything I think he should vent a bit more) and justified. I do think that he will need to learn to control his anger (but mainly because otherwise LV will be able to access control of Harry alot better when he is). Occlumency reminds me of learning how to meditate...because one of the first steps you learn is to clear all your thoughts, and it can be really hard to do if you are angry or upset... I like Heather the Buzzard's idea of LV inheriting some of Harry's love and loyalty...that would be very interesting! pot_of_harry From inkling108 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 13:43:51 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:43:51 -0000 Subject: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129837 > "K": > > > Bookshelf > > December 2002 > > > Rowling says she would be happy with any advance the group manages > to make. For her part, she will continue campaigning. Given her > commitment to awareness-raising, she might be expected to try and > write a character with the disease into one of her multimillion- > selling Harry Potter novels. Well, it's not quite as simple as that. > As Rowling explains: "One problem with the world of Hogwarts - or > not, depending on how you look at it - is that, being wizards, they > tend not to have to suffer what the rest of us do. I spent ages > working out what magic could and couldn't do with regard to illness > and decided that normal human ailments - such as MS - could be > cured. Wow, Thanks, K, this sheds a lot of light on the question. To me, this means that for a witch like Tom Riddle's mother to die in childbirth, (definitely a normal human medical situation), something had to be amiss. Maybe as Potioncat speculates, she was in a muggle hospital or orphanage -- but why wouldn't she seek magical help at such a crucial moment? Did she reject the WW or was she rejected? Arthur Levine said we would learn how Voldy became Voldy in book 6 and I'm guessing his mother's story has a lot to do with it. Only six weeks now...!! Inkling From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 1 13:09:50 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:09:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Half Blood, Pure Blood--Help Pease In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429DB39E.7050804@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 129838 finwitch wrote: >Actually, I've wondered whether a muggle becomes a squib trough >gaining a magical child into his/her family, but when Hermione says >in OOP -- 'prefect is something they can understand'. - I'd say that >a Squib understands magic, having seen it in use in everyday life as >a child... > > I don't see how Hermione's statement has anything to do with Squibness. She just means that Prefect is something that *muggles* can understand, since muggle schools also have Prefects. Unless you're trying to say that this is evidence that her parents don't understand most everything else in the WW and thus could not be called Squibs? If that's what you're meaning, then I'd agree. Squibs are, by definition, wizard-born but non-magical. They are the inverse of muggle-born wizards (like Hermione). The wizard parents of a squib are still wizards; the muggle parents of a wizard are still muggles. >What I wonder, is Petunia. JKR tells us (when asked if she's a >squib) "no, she's a muggle, but.." - but- since Lily, Petunia's >sister, was magical, Petunia *knows* about as much of magic as much >as a Squib does. BUT - since Petunia rejected all that magic-business >(and married a big muggle like Vernon) including her sister, she's a >Muggle. In her case, it's a matter of *attitude* rather than >awareness. > > Like I said above, I don't think 'attitude' has anything to do with the label. And I would argue that Petunia does not know *as much as* a squib would... but she certainly knows more than the average muggle. But her muggle-ness is her 'birthright', she couldn't become a squib even if she became the staunchest supporter of wizards and magic ever seen, even if she moved to Hogsmeade and opened a teashop in Diagon Alley... she'd still be a muggle. Just like a wizard who rejected the wizarding world (or didn't know they were a wizard, like Harry, and Tom Riddle even), who lives in the muggle world, is still a wizard (whether they know it or not, and whether they want to admit it or not). It's just what they *are*, more than a self-described label. I could live my life as a man, but without major surgery I'd still actually be a woman. :) heather the buzzard From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 14:10:46 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:10:46 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129839 > Pippin: > Huggybunny my foot. But since Jen asked for explanations > other than EverSoEvil!Lupin, I'll just point out that > Sirius's suspicion of his old friend isn't the only thing > besides legilimency/occlumency that needs explaining. > In no particular order: > Why wasn't Lupin at Harry's christening? Jen: It's clear Lupin was under suspicion by this point. JKR did say the christening was a 'hurried' affair and therefore only Sirius was present. I actually find the fact that Lupin was under suspicion by his friends his most *un-suspicious* canonical act. Just as with Snape, Peter, Crouch jr., & Sirius, Lupin was yet another character in canon who turned out to be 'other than he appeared' in his introduction. And none of those characters have yet been discovered to be who Harry originally suspected. From the moment the Sneakoscope went off in the train, to Snape's suspicions, to the climax in the Shrieking shack where we think Lupin is in cahoots with Sirius, there's a shadow of doubt cast over Lupin. But the shadow was cleared by the end of POA and Lupin established in canon as a Good guy. > What is Lupin doing for the Order? Jen: I agree with Alla that he was a spy, most likely working in another country. She made canon arguments why she believes this in 129809. > Why does Lupin's case say "Professor R. > J. Lupin" in peeling gold letters, if he's never had > paid work? Jen: Lupin does say in POA "{Dumbledore} gave me a job when I have been shunned all my adult life, unable to find paid work because of what I am." (chap. 18, p. 356, US). I find that a typically self- effacing Lupin answer. He's in the middle of a guilt-trip about Dumbledore, casting him in the role of savior during the speech, when Lupin himself has done the actual hard work of living life as a werewolf in a very discriminatory society. 'Unable to find paid work' says to me Lupin has never had a long-term job, but he's obviously had paid work from time-to-time or how would he be surviving? And this idea that Lupin *has* worked before is supported again in OOTP: Sirius tells us Umbridge 'drafted a bit of anti- werewolf legislation two years ago that makes it *almost impossible* for him to get a job." Meaning, there were points in the past Lupin was able to find paid work but that became incredibly difficult after the legislation. > When Lupin leapt between Harry and Malfoy at > the ministry battle, why didn't Malfoy curse him? Jen: Because Lucius is having second-thoughts about the Dark Lord's return and trying to save his own skin. ;) From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 15:29:43 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:29:43 -0000 Subject: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129840 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: Maybe as Potioncat speculates, she was in a muggle > hospital or orphanage -- but why wouldn't she seek magical help at > such a crucial moment? Did she reject the WW or was she rejected? > Arthur Levine said we would learn how Voldy became Voldy in book 6 > and I'm guessing his mother's story has a lot to do with it. > Tonks: I think that Tom Riddle's mother was disowned by her family and they were, like the Malfoys, people with a lot of power and influence. She could not show her face anywhere. She had married a Muggle and was expecting a Muggle child, a half-breed. She had "befouled the grand and noble house of ___", and the bloodline as well. She was a disgrace to the WW. She was then abandoned by that slime of a Muggle that she married and there she was. She was in the Muggle world but could not do magic there for fear of being arrested by the MOM for doing magic in the presence of Muggles. She did not want her child born in Azkaban. She died alone in a Muggle hospital. Her son was left to be raised by Muggles in an unloving environment. Any sign of his *magic* was ridiculed by the other kids and probably feared by the adults. He was a problem child from the beginning. Is it any wonder that Tom grew to hate the Muggles so much? Maybe he even hates his mother and the whole idea of "Love". If she hadn't fallen in "love" with one of *them* he would be the important respected wizard from a pureblood family. Poor Tom. Look at what all of his anger and rage has made of him. I suspect that DD has shed a tear for Tom too over the years. Maybe this is why LV isn't painted by the author to be as evil to us as some of the others such as Bella, or Umbridge. Or maybe it is just the bleeding heart liberal in me. I hate Umbridge, but still have hope for Tom. Tonks_op From WNCMegs at aol.com Wed Jun 1 15:20:56 2005 From: WNCMegs at aol.com (Megan) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:20:56 -0000 Subject: Harry not kind and loyal anymore? Was:Re: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129841 > Alina: > I think right you summarized why I'm one of the people that has a big > problem with Angry!Harry - he's not kind and loyal anymore! He keeps > on getting on his friends' cases, lashing out at them and acting like > they're doing wrong by him. "What do they understand, stupid Ron, > stupid Hermione, I'm the great Harry, how dare they act like they > know anything about how hard my life is." > > Alla: > > Well, certainly Harry is not very kind for the most part of OOP, > IMO. But I am one of those who think that besides the fact that it > is very understandable phase of the teenager development, Harry was > justified in acting the way he did. >>> Alla: > > On the contrary, I think that throuout the book Harry's reality was > he knew that other people know things he does not and won't tell him. > Megan: I agree. Harry is what, 15 years old during this book, an age at which his hormones are raging. He has seen someone die. Seen the ghost of his parents. Barely got past Voldermort... All these things only 2-3 months before. He was then sent back to a place he despices, where people despise him, only to be kept in the dark by his friends, who send him tantilizing letters. It does not matter if they were having fun, they were together and he was alone. Harry is going through what every teenager goes through. Mood-swings. Confusion. Unexplained feelings and assuming the world revolved around himself. He is not getting much from the others. 1) they are the same age and going through "similar" feelings, 2) Dumbledore is not paying him ANY attention, not only that, IGNORING him and not even looking at him, which is worse. 3) He has a HORRIBLE new teacher (Umbridge) that, instead of teaching the children what they need to know about magical protection, hid the truth, and punished the kids for speaking out. 4) He was forced, without any real explination, to take lessons from a professor he hates, whom hates him. Snape gave him no real instructions, nor did anyone else, on how and why he was supposed to do Occulemency. These are just a few examples on why I believe Harry acts the way he did. Yes, I do not like Harry as much in this book, but, I understand these feelings having been 15 once upon a time. This is why I love this book so much-- Harry is acting his age, and Jo writes the book accurately from the point of view of a 15 year old boy. *Megan goes back to Lurking in the shadows of her cave, waiting for the 6th book" From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 1 15:26:34 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:26:34 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129842 Alina wrote: > I'm one of the people that has a big problem with > Angry!Harry he's not kind and loyal anymore! Not Loyal? He risked his life for his friends. People go on and on about how terrible Harry acted in book 5 but what did he do that was so bad; he unjustly raised his voice at his friends a few times and then apologized a few minutes latter. Harry had been tied to a tombstone and tortured so horribly he wanted to die, that would make anyone a little grouchy. And in book 4 Ron acted far far far worse than Harry ever did and for less reason. > how dare they act like they know anything about > how hard my life is." And Harry was quite right about that, none of Harry's friends truly understand how hard his life is, none of them had to face Voldemort. > Remember that scene where Ginny basically calls > Harry stupid for forgetting that she's the > only person he knows who's been possessed by Voldemort? And remember how Harry apologized immediately afterward. eggplant From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 16:57:19 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:57:19 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > Frankly I do not understand the people who didn't like Harry in the > OOP book. And I am shocked by that, in fact. My god, the kid has > been though more than most adults in a lifetime. What do people want > to see him do instead? Take drugs, kill himself or something? He > is angry, good! He has, as I have said before, PTSD and I would not > think that JKR was any good as a writer if Harry didn't show some > signs of that after everything that happened in the graveyard. > (Julie -- being brought to the keyboard by the use of a mental health diagnosis). I find it interesting that you have said Harry is PTSD. Aside from his being subjected to life-threatening situations and seeing someone else killed, how do you see Harry fitting the criteria? Julie From k.coble at comcast.net Wed Jun 1 17:20:52 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:20:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves and justice, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129844 On May 31, 2005, at 5:08 PM, a_svirn wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble > wrote: > > > > K: > > > My dictionary gives one definition of honor as: > > ????? a ????? Principled uprightness of character; personal > integrity. > > > > a_svirn: > > Try another dictionary. If yours skip such obvious meanings of > honour as `elevated position of rank', `quality of rightness and > moral superiority' it can't be a very good one. > K: It has them. I merely point out that it has, in addition to those definitions it also has this one. I never claimed that your definitions were not correct; however you claimed that mine did not exist. I submit to you that it does exist, and it is a quality that is familiar to anyone who is any way related to a United States Marine. I would also submit that it is a definition familiar to anyone who subscribes, as do I, to the philosophies of John Locke, Thomas Paine and Jesus Christ. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 17:35:59 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050601173559.67176.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129845 > Pippin: > Huggybunny my foot. But since Jen asked for explanations > other than EverSoEvil!Lupin, I'll just point out that > Sirius's suspicion of his old friend isn't the only thing > besides legilimency/occlumency that needs explaining. > In no particular order: > {SNIP} > Why is he afraid of Trelawney? Well, no comment about the others but this is a no-brainer. It's because she's practically stalking the guy. She comes down to the Christmas feast (and this is presented as quite a surprise by Dumbledore), dressed to the nines and the first thing she says is "where is dear Professor Lupin?" She's not subtle. Offering to read his tea leaves or whatever she offered to do would require them to be private. No wonder the man fled. That's not ESE! That's just sound common male bachelor sense. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From k.coble at comcast.net Wed Jun 1 18:06:02 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:06:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I don't get it WAS Re: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45701e9141f2d433aa35b57201afd644@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129846 On Jun 1, 2005, at 10:29 AM, Tonks wrote: > > Maybe this is why LV isn't > painted by the author to be as evil to us as some of the others such > as Bella, or Umbridge. Or maybe it is just the bleeding heart > liberal in me.? I hate Umbridge, but still have hope for Tom. > > K: Forgive me for not hunting down and pasting in the other posts to which I allude, but they were so numerous I thought I'd serve this as my jumping-off point. I don't understand why there seem to be so many people so hopeful to see the "bad" guys--ie. Snape, Malfoy, even fargin' LV--as Potentially Good, while there seem to be at the same time many people advancing the idea that "good guys" (ie. Lupin, Ron, Dumbledore) are really on the verge of turning into some flesh-eating bacteria. I get the whole concept of moral ambiguity, and I get the concepts of fluidity of character. As a Christian I definitely believe in the concept of redemption for any individual, regardless of their past actions or fallen nature. That being said: 1. I don't think the HP books are expressly Christian in nature. Moral, yes. Christian, no. Allegorical, in part. Ethical, very much so. 2. I think that JKR intends for us to be fairly sure of the dichotomy of parties in the WW. There are good things and bad things. There is some waffling to be sure (Sirius' origins vs. his outcome, the Marauders' indiscretions, HRH's numerous rule breaking sprees) but I think she is very clear on the nature of Malum Prohibitum (bad because it breaks a rule or law) versus Malum in se (Bad because the thing itself is bad) Malum Prohibitum--Harry and Ron flying the car to Hogwarts Malum in Se--Voldermort murdering hundreds of people MP--90% of what Fred and George do in any given story MiS--Barty and the LeStranges torturing the Longbottoms into insanity I'm confused because while we often see the baddies engaging in MP behaviour (think Malfoy and the buttons or the being out of bed late at night to catch the goings on with the Dragon), we never see the goodies engaging in MiS behaviour. We've never seen Hagrid murder anyone; we've never known of Lupin to be torturing his DADA class members. JKR does give us several examples of wizards who fell on the wrong side out of misguidance but their actions are not MiS. The best example I can think of is Ludo Bagman. He was accused as a DE, but his actions were those of passing information and doing so misguidedly. These can be argued as MP or MiS, but I would place them as MP. All of this is to say that I really empathize with all who want to hope to see the redemption of certain characters, but as far as this work of literature goes I don't think we'll see it. I think that the various rainbow of baddies serves to show the stages of rot within the WW that are born of its exclusionary principles. While the WW as a whole will be redeemed through unification and elimination of class disctinction, I think that the various characters who embody the elements of class disctinction will not see the light. Lastly, as far as LV goes, I don't see how you can say he's not painted as badly as other characters. He looks like a snake, he subsists off of snake venom, he advocates the murder of anyone that crosses his path, he drives others to committ crimes--even going so far as to possess an 11 year old girl. He is so wicked that fully 99% of the WW is afraid to even mention his name. I'd think the boat has sailed on this guy. Besides which, the means don't justify the end. Respectfully, Katherine [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chnc1024 at earthlink.com Wed Jun 1 18:27:21 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.com (Chancie) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:27:21 -0000 Subject: JKR interview in 2 weeks, send in your ?'s Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129847 Katie Couric from the "Today Show" on NBC will be interviewing JKR in 2 weeks, and they are asking for people to submit questions to ask her during a live interview from Scottland. I thought if we submitted questions, that we might at lest have a chance of getting some wanted answers. Just out of curiosity, if you could be guaranteed that JKR would answer any *ONE* question you had, which would you choose? Here's the link to send your questions in: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8060100 Chancie From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 19:05:37 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:05:37 -0000 Subject: Killing and murdering in the UK WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129848 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: But, on the subject of why LV is said to have 'murdered' rather than > 'killed' the senior Potters, I would say as a speaker of British > English that you murder people in cold blood, in accordance with a > plan. It is your specific intention to murder them and only them. If > you kill, it might be accidental or random, or it might be in battle - > Sirius was veiled in a fair fight, and the right word there would be > 'kill', regardless of the personal issues that were also involved. > > Deborah, in her language-sorting hat I've been thinking about it, and I think that, on the western side of the Pond, we generally don't use "murder" as a verb. We generally say, "He committed a murder," or else we use it in the passive voice, "THree people were murdered," but even then we tend to use "kill." It may be due to our ongoing problem with victimization and lack of adament responsibility for heinous acts. This may be due to a very litigious society and the unwillingness to libel or slander and thus open ourselves up to lawsuits. JM$.02. TK -- TigerPatronus From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 19:13:22 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:13:22 -0000 Subject: JKR interview in 2 weeks, send in your ?'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chancie" wrote: > Katie Couric from the "Today Show" on NBC will be > interviewing JKR in 2 weeks, and they are asking for > people to submit questions to ask her during a live > interview from Scottland. I thought if we submitted > questions, that we might at lest have a chance of > getting some wanted answers. Just out of curiosity, > if you could be guaranteed that JKR would answer any > *ONE* question you had, which would you choose? > > Here's the link to send your questions in: > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8060100 > > > > Chancie bboyminn: Just a few thoughts on question asking. First, it's one thing to ask a question that you would dearly love answered, which is a nice fantasy, but this is a real 'Q & A', so I would suggest you temper the questions you would LIKE answered with the idea of what JKR is likely to answer. In otherwords, if you ask an obvious and direct question like 'Who is the Half-blood Prince?', you are not going to get an answer. Another illustration of what I am getting at might be in the question about Snape and Vampires. For a long time many people speculated that Snape might be a Vampire. Eventually some one ask JKR, but they did so in a subtle way. (to the best of my memory) They didn't ask flat-out 'Is Snape a vampire?', which would have most likely not have gotten an answer at all. Instead they ask 'Is there any connection between Snape and Vamipres?', that more general question was indirect enough that JKR was willing to answer it. I would suggest softening your questions and make them general enough that you actually leave room for JKR to respond to them. Also, if your question or it's answer are too long and complex, they are not likely to be asked. So, if I can force my own context onto Chancie's post above, two proposals are being made- 1.) Submit to MSNBC a question that CAN be answered. 2.) Submit to the group a question that you WANT answered. Again re-enforcing the point that most question we WANT answered CAN'T and won't be answered. Sorry, I sort of feel like a 'spoil-sport' in posting this but I do think it reflects the harsh reality of the situation. Steve/bboyminn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 19:23:31 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:23:31 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129850 Pippin: Huggybunny my foot. But since Jen asked for explanations other than EverSoEvil!Lupin, I'll just point out that Sirius's suspicion of his old friend isn't the only thing besides legilimency/occlumency that needs explaining. In no particular order: Alla: Personally, I don't find half of your questions to be suspicious and the other half to be plot based suspicious ( because as Jen said Lupin needed to be ambious through PoA), but I will try to answer a few. In exchange would you finally promise to answer only TWO of mine? Yes, as creator of ESE!Lupin :-) Please? Pippin: > What's so funny about a cockroach? Alla: I think Nora explained it once that cockroach is a reference to British cartoon or comics or something like that. Pippin: > Is his boggart really a full moon or does the "silvery orb" > represent something else? Alla: Full moon, definitely full moon. :-) Pippin: > Why is Lupin absent on Christmas day in PoA when > it shouldn't be full moon yet? Alla: Hmmm, maybe he is one of those mysterious Hogwarts teachers, yet to be revealed, who is married and wanted to spend Cristmas with his family? Just a guess of course. Pippin: > Why did Snape think Lupin was in on the prank? Alla: Oh, this one is easy. :-) Snape thinks that EVERYBODY was in on the Prank. I will not be surprised if he thinks that Dumbledore was in on the Prank. I will leave others to somebody else . Jen, loved your answers. :-) And now, my question, what do you make of the fact that JKR wished him Happy Birthday? Is he the only villain, who had been wished Happy Birthday so far? If so, why make an exception? I also want to know what do you make of the fact that JKR would love him to teach her daughter? OK, in all other instances when she praises Lupin, I guess you can make a case that she refers specifically to his teaching skills, not to him as a person, but I am having a very hard time buying an argument that JKR would want a teacher for her daughter, who serves an evil monster, even thouh he is professionally all right. Just my opinion of course, Alla. From jaanise at hello.lv Wed Jun 1 19:30:49 2005 From: jaanise at hello.lv (JanisE) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:30:49 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Flying Motorcycle In-Reply-To: <1c6d8f136c860f93a2d11174c01f7ecb@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20050601193100.24128ABB5F@mail.livas.lv> No: HPFGUIDX 129851 ---------------------------------- From: Katherine Coble > I think that Sirius's old motorcycle was transfigured into > Buckbeak. Hagrid had the motorcycle last, and he also had Buckbeak. > Also, Buckbeak seemed very trusting of Sirius when he escaped on > his back, even though Sirius doesn't bow. > > Then how come Hagrid or someone else didn't transfigure Buckbeak back and avoid the heartache of the trial? Jaanis: Oh, that's because then Hagrid and Dumbledore would have got into trouble themselves, as Ministry would know they did something; similar scenario was proposed in the book. From chnc1024 at earthlink.com Wed Jun 1 19:32:10 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.com (Chancie) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:32:10 -0000 Subject: JKR interview in 2 weeks, send in your ?'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chancie" wrote: > > Katie Couric from the "Today Show" on NBC will be > > interviewing JKR in 2 weeks, and they are asking for > > people to submit questions to ask her during a live > > interview from Scottland. I thought if we submitted > > questions, that we might at lest have a chance of > > getting some wanted answers. Just out of curiosity, > > if you could be guaranteed that JKR would answer any > > *ONE* question you had, which would you choose? > > > > Here's the link to send your questions in: > > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8060100 > > > > > > > > Chancie > > bboyminn: > > Just a few thoughts on question asking. First, it's one thing to ask a > question that you would dearly love answered, which is a nice fantasy, > but this is a real 'Q & A', so I would suggest you temper the > questions you would LIKE answered with the idea of what JKR is likely > to answer. > > So, if I can force my own context onto Chancie's post above, two > proposals are being made- > > 1.) Submit to MSNBC a question that CAN be answered. > > 2.) Submit to the group a question that you WANT answered. > > Again re-enforcing the point that most question we WANT answered CAN'T > and won't be answered. > > Sorry, I sort of feel like a 'spoil-sport' in posting this but I do > think it reflects the harsh reality of the situation. > > Steve/bboyminn Chancie: Yes, you are right about the interview questions. The likely hood that JKR would give any truly shocking answers (like who is the HBP) are something like 9 zillion to 1, I'm not supposing we ask those, that would only be a great waste of our time, as well as the person who has to sort through all those questions. I'm supposing we submit questions that might provide *SOME* type of information. For instance I believe it was you who proposed that Hogwarts should have classes to learn apparation (I apologize if it was not). So asking things like that have a chance of being answered, and it's not plot sensitive material, or at least I don't think so. And you are also right that the second half of my post was asking hypothetically if you could guarantee that any one question you asked JKR would be answered what would you choose to ask her. In other words, if you could have her tell you anything about HP what you would you MOST want to know and why. Sorry if my post was somewhat unclear, that's what I get for trying to post when my daughter is awake. Chancie From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 19:31:26 2005 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:31:26 -0000 Subject: More-More Thoughts about Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129853 bboyminn: > > > When Tom Riddle murdered his parents, he made a life choice, he > defined himself in a away that crossed a line that I'm sure we can > safely say he will never cross back over. Given his total lack of > regret, and that he doesn't seem remotely sorry for his action. Nor > does he display any indication that he has intent or capacity to be > sorry for that action. So, I can safely say that Voldemort will > never be redeemed even while acknowledging that the theoretical > potential for redemption still exists. > > Draco is still in a postion to be able to understand the dark nature > of his actions, to regret them, and to choose a new path in life. > But,much like Tom Riddle, there is a line that he will likely cross > beyond which he will never find his way back. Eustace_Scrubb: Erm, don't know why I'm picking nits here, but Tom Riddle didn't kill his parents, just his father and _his_ parents. And 50 plus years later, I agree he's unlikely to suddenly regret it. As to Draco, perhaps it's true that he hasn't yet made the decision that sets his path permanently to the dark side, but there's been precious little character development that would lead readers to doubt that he will. As he has a chapter named after him in HBP, I'm guessing we don't have to wait long to find out...unless the character development's just going to start there with the resolution in book 7. But if JKR's going to throw us a Draco monkey wrench, "Draco's Detour" would be a good name for it. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 19:32:24 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:32:24 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129854 >>Ginger, who thinks Lupin is a huggybunny.< >>Pippin: >Huggybunny my foot.< Betsy Hp: Agreed. I don't think Lupin is ESE, but he *is* a bad-ass. Probably one of the tougher wizards Harry has met, and his mild meek manner is all part of the act. [fyi - I've re-ordered some of Pippin's questions where I wanted to answer a few at once.] >>Pippin: >Why does Lupin seem unaffected by the dementor on the train?< Betsy Hp: Because he's a bad-ass. Seriously, Lupin does his old "shucks ma'm twernt nothin'" act, but he is able to teach Harry about repelling dementors because he really *is* that good at DADA. He knows what dementors are and he was able to prepare himself for its attack. >>Pippin: >What was Lupin doing for twelve years between GH and Book Three? >Why does Lupin's case say "Professor R. J. Lupin" in peeling gold letters, if he's never had paid work?< Betsy Hp: I love the idea of Lupin spying - probably out of country. And he *must* have had some sort of teaching experience. Not just because of his suitcase label but also because he's so at ease in the classroom. I like the idea that Dumbledore brings him back specifically because of Sirius and that Lupin is not all that thrilled to be walking down memory lane. (Hence his reluctance to talk to Harry about his parents.) >>Pippin: >What's so funny about a cockroach? >Is his boggart really a full moon or does the "silvery orb" represent something else?< Betsy Hp: I think his boggart is the moon, and my out on a limb thought about the cockroach is that it's actually a scarab (according to Egyption myth, didn't scarabs push the sun across the sky)? The one flaw in this theory is that JKR doesn't *suggest* that the moon turns into a cockroach, she out and out states that it turns into a cockroach. But I go against all reason and stick with my scarab theory. (Maybe Lupin's been doing work in Egypt?) >>Pippin: >Why is he afraid of Trelawney? >Why is Lupin absent on Christmas day in PoA when it shouldn't be full moon yet?< Betsy Hp: Here's another out on a limb idea: What if Lupin is married? Maybe he went to spend Christmas with his wife and he avoids Trelawney because his wife is a bit of a secret (no idea why) and he's afraid he might let something slip while repelling her advances? Or, he avoids Trelawney because she's annoying, and he spent Christmas day with his folks (since he hasn't seen them for so long, being out of country and all). I like this better because I do admit I like the idea of Sirius/Remus being JKR's little subversive addition to her tale. >>Pippin: >How predictable is the period of transformation? >If it's not predictable, how could the prank work?< Betsy Hp: I recall there was a really indepth discussion on this list a while back (one of many I assume) about Lupin transforming only when hit by the rays of the moon. I honestly think that was a bit of a Flint or poetic license on JKR's part (i.e. the moon just happened to rise at the exact same moment the clouds cleared). But despite the problems raised by that scene, I believe the transformation *is* predictable. I don't think Lupin could have attended Hogwarts otherwise. It would have also been hard for his friends to know when and how to show up at the Shack, and it would have made the Prank very difficult to pull off. >>Pippin: >Why did Snape think Lupin was in on the prank? >Why isn't Lupin in any of Harry's photos? >Why wasn't Lupin at Harry's christening?< Betsy Hp: I wonder if part of the reason for the break of trust between Potter and Lupin and Black isn't *because* of the Prank? After all, Sirius came very close to turning Lupin into a murderer and a cannibal. At the very least Sirius showed a breath taking lack of respect for Lupin. If there was a break between Lupin and Sirius over the prank I imagine James would side with Sirius (in the pensieve scene, their relationship seemed the core of the group) and Peter seemed primed to go wherever James went. Which would explain why Lupin doesn't show up in any of the pictures of James and Lily. I feel like they start dating after the prank, and at that point Lupin might not have been part of the group. I wonder if Lupin had a hard time forgiving Sirius for the prank? So maybe it wasn't that James and Sirius and Peter moved away from him, but he moved away from them. As to Snape, well he was very much on the outside looking in. Lupin was the quiet one to begin with. (The fact that Lupin gets the prefect job suggests that he didn't get caught in Maurader adventures very often.) And Snape and the Mauraders may well have stopped having anything to do with each other after the prank. So if there was a cooling of friendship occuring, Snape may well have missed it. >>Pippin: >What is Lupin doing for the Order?< Betsy Hp: He's at Grimmauld Place often enough that I doubt he's doing as much out of country work as before (I state like we know for sure that's what he was doing in the first place ). And he approaches that newly formed werewolf when everyone's visiting Arthur Weasley. So Lupin might be working on recruiting so-called "dark" creatures to the Order's side. >>Pippin: >When Lupin leapt between Harry and Malfoy at the ministry battle, why didn't Malfoy curse him?< Betsy Hp: Maybe Lupin threw a hex of his own? Or maybe he raised a shield? Harry doesn't stick around long enough to find out really. He turns his attention onto Neville almost immediately. Also, if Lupin was a spy for Voldemort, and if Malfoy knew about it (or even if Lupin was Malfoy's spy), wouldn't it seem suspicious to *not* strike at him? Especially since Lupin is *directly* interfering with Malfoy's attempt to get the prophecy. If Lupin was a spy wouldn't it have made more sense for him to hold back for just the few seconds it would have taken for Malfoy to accio the prophecy? And here's the number one reason I hope that Lupin is not ESE. Snape. I don't know if everyone's picked up on this, but I kinda dig Snape and would very much like to see him survive and thrive at the end of the series. Amandageist predicted that Snape would die by series end (see message here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129605 ) because he's trapped in the past. This particular prediction made me cry, because it does make sense. However, if Snape is able to let go of his past and move on, then the chances of his survival would, I think, start to raise. And I think Lupin could be a key element in Snape finally laying the old demons of his childhood to rests. But I don't think that could work if Lupin is ESE. Betsy Hp From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 20:14:56 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:14:56 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129855 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: > > (Julie -- being brought to the keyboard by the use of a mental health > diagnosis). I find it interesting that you have said Harry is PTSD. > Aside from his being subjected to life-threatening situations and > seeing someone else killed, how do you see Harry fitting the > criteria? > Tonks: We discussed this topic some time ago (in late fall) and I and others posted at that time all of the criteria for making such a diagnosis. I can try to look for the post, but I understand that these can be very difficult to find in yahoomort. Basically Harry fits the DSMIV criteria for making that diagnosis, such as nightmare, flashbacks, irritability, hyper-vigilance, etc. I think that JKR has done a very good job of protraying someone with that diagnosis. Tonks_op From n.crins at planet.nl Wed Jun 1 20:53:36 2005 From: n.crins at planet.nl (niekycrins) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:53:36 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129856 Just wondering, why would this room, containing a force that is needed to conquer VM, be closed and apparently protected? Why not "unleash" it on LV while he was in the DOM? Nieky From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 21:01:35 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:01:35 -0000 Subject: Meaning of honour (was:Re: House Elves and justice, etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129857 > > Finwitch: > As for house-elves, I believe some, if not most of them (like Winky) > consider it an honour AND pleasure to serve. (why does the phrase > sound so familiar?) > Or yes it *does* sounds familiar! And JKR plays with the meanings of "service", "serve", and "servant", and "services" throughout the whole OOP. As for `honour' and `pleasure' ? you are quite right of course, but it has nothing to do with elves' "moral superiority and integrity etc", but rather with that of their masters. Lets consult a dictionary: in the New Oxford Compact entry for `honour' runs for two full pages and the first meaning is: `1. High respect or reverence accorded to exalted worth or rank; deferential admiration and approbation. a. As felt or entertained in the mind for some person or thing. b. as received or shown: the expression of high estimation. c. As received, held gained and enjoyed; glory renowned fame, credit, reputation; the opposite of dishonour, disgrace'. It fits your example perfectly, but here we have again the inferiors render respect to the superiors. The latter have all the honours so to speak, while the former dwell in the state of disgrace. a_svirn From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 21:06:36 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:06:36 -0000 Subject: I don't get it WAS Re: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: <45701e9141f2d433aa35b57201afd644@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129858 >>K: >I don't understand why there seem to be so many people so hopeful to see the "bad" guys--ie. Snape, Malfoy, even fargin' LV--as Potentially Good, while there seem to be at the same time many people advancing the idea that "good guys" (ie. Lupin, Ron, Dumbledore) are really on the verge of turning into some flesh- eating bacteria.< Betsy Hp: I think you can lay the blame squarely at the feet of JKR. One of the most fasinating and frustrating things she does is mix up her genres. Is the Harry Potter series a fairy-tale, a hero's journey, a school-days story, a gothic tale, a mystery? In a word, yes. And while a fairy-tale or hero's journey tend to be very straight forward with easily recognizable arc-types as characters, a mystery is an entirely different animal. And from PS/SS JKR makes clear that not everything we're told will hold true throughout the story. Will Voldemort remain the main villain? Sure. And Harry will no doubt remain the hero. But everyone else is fair game, and even the hero and the villain get shaken out of their predictable roles. Harry has and will act in some less than noble ways; Voldemort had a horrifying childhood. We've already been told that the last Order nearly fell because of a traitor in its midst. Commonsense dictates that where there's one spy there may very well be more. So all "good guys" are suspect. And if the Order has spies of their own then all "bad guys" might not necessarily be bad. >>K: > 1. I don't think the HP books are expressly Christian in nature. Moral, yes. Christian, no. Allegorical, in part. Ethical, very much so.< Betsy Hp: I agree, though I don't think the books are all that allegorical. Not expressly so, anyway. >>K: > 2. I think that JKR intends for us to be fairly sure of the dichotomy of parties in the WW. There are good things and bad things. There is some waffling to be sure (Sirius' origins vs. his outcome, the Marauders' indiscretions, HRH's numerous rule breaking sprees) but I think she is very clear on the nature of Malum Prohibitum (bad because it breaks a rule or law) versus Malum in se (Bad because the thing itself is bad)< Betsy Hp: And here's where things get lovely and gray. Because, yes JKR is generally fairly clear about good and bad, but sometimes they're not always that easy to identify. A prime example is house-elves. Through Hermione and Dobby, JKR seems to be saying slavery is bad. Makes sense. But then Hermione's actions on behalf of house-elves aren't necessarily all that good. The Ministry is another good example. Voldemort and his Death Eaters are bad, but Crouch, Sr. and his methods of hunting down the Death Eaters are not all that great themselves. >>K: >I'm confused because while we often see the baddies engaging in MP behaviour (think Malfoy and the buttons or the being out of bed late at night to catch the goings on with the Dragon), we never see the goodies engaging in MiS behaviour. We've never seen Hagrid murder anyone; we've never known of Lupin to be torturing his DADA class members.< Betsy Hp: Here's were the mystery aspect of the story comes in. Right up until the end of PoA the good guys would say that they'd seen Pettigrew engage in some MP behavior, but *never* MiS behavior. So why on earth would they believe that he's really a bad guy? But then the truth is revealed and it turns out that Pettigrew *was* engaged in MiS behavior. He just wasn't caught. Pippin (who I think is the biggest champion of ESE!Lupin) would argue that Lupin *has* engaged in MiS behavior, he's just not been caught yet. I've taken a shine to ESE!McGonagall ('cause it would make an interesting twist) and though she's not done a thing wrong that we've seen -- if she is a traitor I'm sure some MiS stuff would soon follow the reveal. Of course, someone like Lupinlore would (I think) argue that Dumbledore has engaged in MiS behavior by allowing Harry to live at the Dursleys. Which gets into the actual ethical rules as laid out by the books and questions if they are indeed ethical. And that's a whole other argument. >>K: >JKR does give us several examples of wizards who fell on the wrong side out of misguidance but their actions are not MiS. The best example I can think of is Ludo Bagman. He was accused as a DE, but his actions were those of passing information and doing so misguidedly. These can be argued as MP or MiS, but I would place them as MP.< Betsy Hp: And those who think Bagman is really a sleeper Death Eater agent would argue that Bagman passed the information on *knowingly* and so therefore was MiS rather than MP. That's where the arguments come in, I think. Because one type of action is much more easily forgiven than another. >>K: >All of this is to say that I really empathize with all who want to hope to see the redemption of certain characters, but as far as this work of literature goes I don't think we'll see it. I think that the various rainbow of baddies serves to show the stages of rot within the WW that are born of its exclusionary principles.< Betsy Hp: And I would argue that Draco and Snape (two baddies mentioned) don't really *need* to be redeemed. Draco has only acted in a manner I would catagorize as MP. In fact, I would argue that his MP actions are well within the range of MP actions the "good guys" have engaged in. And Snape, though possibly taking part in MiS action while a Death Eater, seems to have already redeemed himself (based on Dumbledore's trust). Both characters need to be redeemed in *Harry's eyes* and I have hopes that both will be. Of course Draco is really teetering on the edge, I think. It would be very easy for him to do something in the MiS category now that war has come and he's personally involved. But I do hope he's somehow directed in another direction. Both characters have been painted too subtley by JKR for me to agree that they're just there to serve an allegorical role. Plus, I like both characters and I hope that the story ends well for them. Honestly, as far as redemption goes, the only characters that I think qualify for the big save (eg Luke redeeming Vader) are Pettigrew and Voldemort. Pettigrew is a possibility; there is that life debt after all. Perhaps he'll sacrifice himself to save Harry thereby redeeming himself. Voldemort... has a *much* longer way to go, IMO, and I honestly don't see it happening. Tom Riddle's reluctance to go back to the orphanage in CoS pulled a small pang of sympathy out of me. But since he'd brought the school closing down on himself (by KILLING someone!) I wasn't really heart-broken on his behalf. Perhaps Tom could have been reached at this time, but I think his problems started a long time ago. (I recall reading a theory that Tom was twisted by dementors when he was just a baby. I thought it came from Redhen, but now I can't find it. Does this ring any bells for anyone?) If JKR was writing a pure fairy-tale or an allegorical tale then I could agree that it's silly for people to look for something good in the "bad guys" or rotten in the "good guys". (It's rare for someone to argue on behalf of the evil queen in Snow White, for example.) But JKR has given us a much deeper and more human story where the bad guys and the good guys are a tiny bit harder to identify. Betsy Hp From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 21:23:06 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Killing and murdering in the UK WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050601212306.36279.qmail@web32711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129859 tigerpatronus wrote: I've been thinking about it, and I think that, on the western side of the Pond, we generally don't use "murder" as a verb. We generally say, "He committed a murder," or else we use it in the passive voice, "THree people were murdered," but even then we tend to use "kill." It may be due to our ongoing problem with victimization and lack of adament responsibility for heinous acts. This may be due to a very litigious society and the unwillingness to libel or slander and thus open ourselves up to lawsuits. JM$.02. TK -- TigerPatronus Lynn: Hence the reason for using the word "allegedly" until such time as someone has been convicted of a crime. I happen to think the reason we use kill more than murder is due there being so many varying degrees and until the prosecution decides the degree, we don't know if it was 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, 3rd degree murder, manslaughter, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, reckless endangerment, depraved indifference to human life, assasination, capital murder, serial murder, mass murder ... well you get the idea. It is far easier to say kill. Cheers Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kempermentor at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 21:34:58 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:34:58 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" > wrote: > > > > (Julie -- being brought to the keyboard by the use of a mental health > > diagnosis). I find it interesting that you have said Harry is PTSD. > > Aside from his being subjected to life-threatening situations and > > seeing someone else killed, how do you see Harry fitting the > > criteria? > > > > Tonks: > We discussed this topic some time ago (in late fall) and I and others > posted at that time all of the criteria for making such a diagnosis. I > can try to look for the post, but I understand that these can be very > difficult to find in yahoomort. Basically Harry fits the DSMIV criteria > for making that diagnosis, such as nightmare, flashbacks, irritability, > hyper-vigilance, etc. I think that JKR has done a very good job of > protraying someone with that diagnosis. Kemper now: Though Harry may experience some of the criteria for PTSD, my understanding is that it's not a 'disorder' unless it affects two or more aspects of one's life: school, work, social, family. Which isn't to say that Harry isn't experiencing Post Traumatic Stress... it's just not a Disorder. This leads me to my fear of "some won't like it". This next bit is sort of a rant and may include some abreviated, base language much like Vernon used... There has got to be some closure/death ritual for Sirius. I don't necessarily need to read a chapter on it, just a sentence or two to know that it was done. Every adult in OP didn't say shiznit about Cedric's death. Like... Arthur: Have you been lucky enough not to experience loss by death? I will wait to rant on you... Molly: Has lost her twin brothers and fears the death of her husband, her children and Harry. You suck, Molly, coddling in fair weather! Lupin: Has known isolation because of who he is and has also more than likely witnessed deaths during the First War. You pussy-cat werewolf! There are 27 days in a lunar month that you can sit Harry's ass down and have a talk. You got him through the Patronus lessons, but no howl to the death of Cedric? What's up? Sirius: Has witnessed the deaths of 12 muggles (and was wrongly accused of their deaths) and may have witnessed even more during the First War. He says nothing to Harry. Eff you, Sirius! Your mentoring relationship is lame if not self-serving. These four had best opportunity to speak with Harry as it was only a month or so after Harry's time in the graveyard. All four know that Harry wouldn't seek emotional support from his aunt. Hagrid: I hold no resentment towards you as you got to the party late and, I'm hoping, you would assume that someone has brought the topic up already so why beat a dead thestral. Albus: Hmm... it's hard to have a conversation with someone who's inner snake wants to kill you, so I am willing to forgive you, Albus, but grudgingly. Minerva: Closest adult, physically, to Harry during most of OP. Yet you mention nothing except a little criticism regarding his retention of Dolores' hidden message in her speech. Can you transfigure a heart? The only adult who seemed willing to bring it up in his own way was Moody, with his mortuary like picture album. It was a great opportunity for Harry to bring up any issue, but Harry didn't really know the real Moody and it was in a crowded kitchen/dining room. But good try, Moody! Maybe you can get it right in HBP... Kemper, who knows he may be harshing too hard, but holds firmly on his opinion regarding Sirius. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 1 21:41:10 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:41:10 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129861 > Alla: > And now, my question, what do you make of the fact that JKR wished > him Happy Birthday? He's a Pisces. Kind and wonderfully appreciative of others' needs. But also dual-natured, easily misled, great actors, fickle and oft-deceived by their hopes. Alla: > Is he the only villain, who had been wished Happy Birthday so far? If so, why make an exception? Pippin Honestly, I think you could get more out of analyzing the coffee grounds Heroes aren't the only people who get birthday greetings. Alla: > OK, in all other instances when she praises Lupin, I guess you can make a case that she refers specifically to his teaching skills, not to him as a person, but I am having a very hard time buying an argument that JKR would want a teacher for her daughter, who serves an evil monster, even thouh he is professionally all right. Pippin: To paraphrase Arthur Weasly, when you're dealing with a witch like Umbridge, you sometimes have to join forces with those you'd rather avoid. Lupin is what the WW has made him; in our world, where JKR's daughter lives, his choices would be different. Pippin From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 1 21:52:59 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:52:59 -0000 Subject: Killing and murdering in the UK WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > Once again I have to apologise for my ongoing inability to snip like a > civilised person. > > But, on the subject of why LV is said to have 'murdered' rather than > 'killed' the senior Potters, I would say as a speaker of British > English that you murder people in cold blood, in accordance with a > plan. It is your specific intention to murder them and only them. If > you kill, it might be accidental or random, or it might be in battle - > Sirius was veiled in a fair fight, and the right word there would be > 'kill', regardless of the personal issues that were also involved. > > So interesting, sometimes, how the language of books can raise these > issues that we (on opposite sides of the English language divide!) > would never otherwise think about. > > Deborah, in her language-sorting hat Geoff: Speaking as a native English person, to me "kill" would also include the "murder" option. However, regarding Sirius, I hardly think it was a fair fight. The Order members had arrived to rescue Harry and were involved in exchanging spells to disable the Death Eaters as were the DA members present. Look at the tally of spells used: DA and Order members: Protego, Reducto, Colloportus, Stupefy, Expelliarmus, Accio, Silencio, Petrificus Totalis, Diffindo, Finite, Crucio Death Eaters: Alohomora, Avada Kedavra, Impedimanta, unspecified (used to attack Hermione), Stupefy, Tantallegra, Accio. Protego An interesting and interesting tally. The Crucio is, of course, Harry's directed at Bellatrix otherwsie the spells used by this group were to protect or disarm. There are two AKs noted by name from the opponents but there are others using green lights plus whatever was used on people such as Luna and Ron which are not specified in the text. So, I believe that the Death Eaters were quite cold-bloodedly aiming to kill. Sirius is hit by something which is instrumental or partly instrumental in his death (depnding on how you see the function of the veil) whereas he is merely trying to assist in the rescue and apprehnding of Voldemort's gang. I think that it is quite in order to say that the Death Eaters present and Voldemort himself were attempting to "murder" the students and Phoenix members who were in the Ministry. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 22:01:42 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:01:42 -0000 Subject: House Elves and justice, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129863 > Kristen: > > However I still think that in this case I can still act with honor > and dignity if I hold true to my values and beliefs and take pride in > the work and things I do. a_svirn: But if you agree with me that honour and dignity is something one "learns", I don't see how you would behave with either if you hadn't been "taught" to be honourable and dignified in the first place. Not to mention that for a slave dignified behaviour would entail certain logistical problems (and very unpleasant consequences). > 2nd, not sure if you agree with my point about free will but... Even > I were condemned to the situation to which you describe I would still > argue that I have free will. I may be trained or brought up to do as > I'm told, but in the end my actions are still my choice no matter how > much pressure the environment exerts on me. I may feel that I have > no choice, and I may never decide to do what I want but I stand by my > arguement that I do have a choice. (Assuming that is that I'm not > under the Imperius Curse. :-) a_svirn: Well, I have nothing against Free Will, but I don't see the immediate connection with the matter of honour and dignity. Your will may be as free as they come, but your choices are limited by the combination of natural and cultural constraints, after all. > > 3rd and last I would argue that given humans and other cognizant > beings ability to learn and adapt; I still hold that some who are > born into slavery will challenge the situation (If not physically at > least mentally). And if they challenge the assumptions, I think it > is possible for a slave to decided that they are not naturally > inferior. a_svirrn: Yes, well, I never said it is impossible for a slave to challenge the assumption of his or her inferiority. I just pointed out that said slave should be exceptional indeed. I see a multitude of ways this could happen: > - They could see that there are differences in skills and abilities within the ruling class and differences in skills and values of slaves and draw a conclusion that if educated and trained that they could do more. a_svirn: But ideology of inequality is more subtle than that, you see: you are not inferior or superior because you are less or more skilled or less or more intelligent. You are inferior or superior just because you are. Just because that's in your nature. Just because God ordained it so. > - They could just have a really stupid owner and come to realize that > they and other slaves tend to make better decisions. a-svirn: Ah, but it doesn't change the basic principle. If someone with a deeply imbedded "slave mentality" found themselves in a possession of a "bad" owner, they wouldn't crave for freedom, but rather for a "good" master. That's, by the way, the Kreacher's case. > - They could have a parent or owner who instills in them idea that > they can do anything if they work at it. a_svirn: Hmm But wouldn't that owner have to free them first, if he or she is in earnest? In which case they wouldn't be slaves anymore, would they? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 22:05:14 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:05:14 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129864 Alla: And now, my question, what do you make of the fact that JKR wished him Happy Birthday? Pippin: He's a Pisces. Kind and wonderfully appreciative of others' needs. But also dual-natured, easily misled, great actors, fickle and oft-deceived by their hopes. Alla: What is Pisces? Is it a personal name or just a definition for what you described? Thanks and sorry - language issues again. :-) Alla earlier: Is he the only villain, who had been wished Happy Birthday so far? If so, why make an exception? Pippin Honestly, I think you could get more out of analyzing the coffee grounds Heroes aren't the only people who get birthday greetings. Alla: Oh, of course it is meta meta thinking, but I thought quite a few people agreed that no bad guys had been wished happy birthday so far I take it you are not one of them then. I guess I can continue thinking that Snape can be a villain in disguise. :-) Thank you, I had been very curious to know your opinion on this one for quite some time. Betsy Hp: > I wonder if Lupin had a hard time forgiving Sirius for the prank? > So maybe it wasn't that James and Sirius and Peter moved away from > him, but he moved away from them. Alla: If Lupin was having a hard time forgiving Sirius for the actions which are not very clear to me yet, he definitely does not show it in the Shrieking Shack, IMO. He is very dismissive about the whole thing, IMO. Just my opinion, Alla. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 1 22:07:15 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:07:15 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "niekycrins" wrote: Nieky: > Just wondering, why would this room, containing a force that is needed > to conquer VM, be closed and apparently protected? > > Why not "unleash" it on LV while he was in the DOM? geoff: I don't think that we are told that this power will actually "conquer" Voldemort in a physical sense.... "There is a room in the Department of Mysteries," interrupted Dumbledore, "that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, then the forces of nature. It is alos, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room thatyou possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. in the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you." (OOTP "The Lost Prophecy" p.743 UK edition) This force doesn't sound as if it is some sort of weapon - like a hand grenade - that you can hurl at Voldemort. It is obviously some sort of power which is held personally by someone. There have been various suggestions as to what it might be but I believe it is something intangible; it can't be handled or picked up or handed around. My own vote, for what it's worth is love; others as I know from the past will have differing ideas.... From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 22:40:19 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:40:19 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129866 > Alla: > > If Lupin was having a hard time forgiving Sirius for the actions > which are not very clear to me yet, he definitely does not show it in > the Shrieking Shack, IMO. > > He is very dismissive about the whole thing, IMO. > > Well, he was trying to convince Harry that Sirius is one of the good guys, not to rehash the past. And although I would agree that Sirius's actions and motivations are far from clear, two things at least are given: he did try to kill Snape and he did betray Lupin in the process. (Unless Lupin was privy to his plans, which I simply can't imagine). a_svirn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 22:51:04 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:51:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Was: Re: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129867 a_svirn: And although I would agree that Sirius's actions and motivations are far from clear, two things at least are given: he did try to kill Snape and he did betray Lupin in the process. (Unless Lupin was privy to his plans, which I simply can't imagine). Alla: I so don't want to open The Prank again, but these two things are most definitely NOT given to me. I will send you links to some of the Prank discussions later, if you'd like ( I am away from my home computer at the moment), but the only thing which is sort of a given to me only of course is that Sirius told SOMEBODY how to get to Shrieking Shack and Snape heard it. We don't even know, IMO that Sirius said it directly to the Snape. Snape overhearing it seems more likely to me. I said earlier that I absolutely cannot imagine Snape listening to what Sirius said and believing it and DOING what Sirius told him to do. Whom Sirius said it to, whether he said it in a staged conversation or not, why he said it, what was Remus role in the events and many other things are not clear at all, to me only, of course. JMO of course, Alla From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 22:57:00 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:57:00 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Was: Re: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > a_svirn: > > And although I would agree that Sirius's actions and motivations are > far from clear, two things at least are given: he did try to kill > Snape and he did betray Lupin in the process. (Unless Lupin was privy > to his plans, which I simply can't imagine). > > > Alla: > > I so don't want to open The Prank again, but these two things are > most definitely NOT given to me. I will send you links to some of the > Prank discussions later, if you'd like ( I am away from my home > computer at the moment), but the only thing which is sort of a given > to me only of course is that Sirius told SOMEBODY how to get to > Shrieking Shack and Snape heard it. We don't even know, IMO that > Sirius said it directly to the Snape. Snape overhearing it seems more > likely to me. > I said earlier that I absolutely cannot imagine Snape listening to > what Sirius said and believing it and DOING what Sirius told him to > do. > > Whom Sirius said it to, whether he said it in a staged conversation > or not, why he said it, what was Remus role in the events and many > other things are not clear at all, to me only, of course. > > JMO of course, > > Alla You are right, they are not given. But they are most likely though. a_svirn From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 1 23:05:53 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:05:53 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129869 > Pippin: > He's a Pisces. Kind and wonderfully appreciative of others' needs. > But also dual-natured, easily misled, great actors, fickle and > oft-deceived by their hopes. > > > Alla: > > What is Pisces? Is it a personal name or just a definition for what > you described? Pippin: Lupin's birth sign is Pisces, the astrological sign of the fishes. http://www.elore.com/Astrology/Study/pisces.htm Alla: > Oh, of course it is meta meta thinking, but I thought quite a few > people agreed that no bad guys had been wished happy birthday so far I take it you are not one of them then. Pippin: I'm not going to base my opinion of a character on whether they got a birthday wish from the author's website -- ambivalent characters like Snape and Percy have been greeted, good characters like Dumbledore have been passed over, and if Lupin is evil, then an evil character has been greeted, so what does that do to the theory? The problem with viewing the unanswered questions about Lupin as red herrings is that they've never been resolved. A proper red herring is part of the plot -- for example, we find out the reasons for Bagman's and Karkaroff's actions in GoF, we learn why Snape was following Harry around in PS/SS, we learn what Percy was up to in CoS and Hagrid in OOP. But we don't have any answers for Lupin except the ones we've been making up ourselves. It's very hard to reason against ESE!Lupin without calling on Flints and plotholes, isn't it? Pippin From jmoses22002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 15:39:36 2005 From: jmoses22002 at yahoo.com (jmoses22002) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:39:36 -0000 Subject: Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129870 Flying monkeypurple: > I know she is a giant I meant a different way for a giant to have a > baby. Also I thought giants did not like wizards. Don't you think > that the giants would not like the fact that she is with a wizard. > Just some food for thought. Jmoses Now I believe you are beginning to generalize. If there is anything JKRowling has tought us it is not to judge a book solely on it's cover. Take Dobby. All house elves are suppose to do what they're told, but he didn't. There is always the exception that proves the rule. From alishak at spu.edu Wed Jun 1 18:10:06 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:10:06 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: <429D0CD5.6040904@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129871 I just felt the need to jump in here and explain a little of why I personally didn't like Harry in OotP. It wasn't that he was angry. I actually liked that about him. It /did/ make him seem more realistic. He needed to explode because so much crap has happened to him in the past 4 years. He had every right to be angry at Dumbledore for ignoring him. He was understandably pissed at his friends for not keeping him informed. What I didn't like about him was his feeling of entitlement. I don't have my book with me as I'm at work right now, but I got the feeling that most of Harry's moodiness stemmed from his attitude of "I'm Harry Potter! I deserve to know these things!" My second favorite part of the book (after McGonagall's awesomeness in "Careers Advice") was when Phineas Nigellus finally told Harry off. Yes, Harry is special. Yes, he's the only one to have gone through what he's gone through. Yes, he did apologize when Ginny called him on his idiocy. The thing that upset me most about Harry was that, after four years of cringing when people looked at his scar and wishing that people would stop gawking at him in the corridors and putting his name in the paper, he suddenly decides to play the fame card. I know he's been through a lot in the few months before we see him in book 5, but I don't see that this particular attitude change was well constructed. Anger in this situation is natural, his sudden embrace of "Harry Potter-ness" is not. Alisha- who is glad she has a distinct shortage of 15-year-old boys in her life. From alishak at spu.edu Wed Jun 1 20:51:54 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:51:54 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129872 > Pippin: > > Is his boggart really a full moon or does the "silvery orb" > > represent something else? > > Alla: > > Full moon, definitely full moon. :-) Alisha: Doesn't Lupin say as much when asking Hermione how she figured out he was a werewolf? > Alla: > And now, my question, what do you make of the fact that JKR wished > him Happy Birthday? > > Is he the only villain, who had been wished Happy Birthday so far? If > so, why make an exception? > > I also want to know what do you make of the fact that JKR would love > him to teach her daughter? > > OK, in all other instances when she praises Lupin, I guess you can > make a case that she refers specifically to his teaching skills, not > to him as a person, but I am having a very hard time buying an > argument that JKR would want a teacher for her daughter, who serves > an evil monster, even thouh he is professionally all right. > > Just my opinion of course, > Alisha: JKR has also mentioned that Lupin is (at least one of) her favorite (s). In an interview with cBBC Newsround in July 2000: Interviewer: Now the future. Lupin's going to come back in book five isn't he? JKR: You'll see Lupin again in five yeah, yeah - do you like Lupin? Interviewer: Oh yes, he's my favourite. JKR: Yeah and me. I always looked forward to writing book three because of Professor Lupin, I love him. It seems unlikely that JKR would love him if he were really evil. She has said, for instance, that while she loves writing Snape, she doesn't like him. Alisha- who hopes against hope that Lupin remains as cool as he is right now. From maliksthong at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 22:02:34 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:02:34 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129873 Alina: Harry keeps on acting like > he's the only person who goes through hardships or does anything worth > while and even the above-mentioned scene didn't wake him up to the > reality that there are other people out there who know things he > doens't. I think Snape's been trying to tell him that all along, he's just too much of a loner to understand. Chys From weaslediva at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 22:54:22 2005 From: weaslediva at yahoo.com (Deborah Hunt) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Flying Motorcycle In-Reply-To: <20050601193100.24128ABB5F@mail.livas.lv> Message-ID: <20050601225422.96038.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129874 Sirius's old motorbike is in the Weasley shed. Arthur used it as the proto-type for the flying car. The Weasleys will give it to Harry. Then Harry will have a vehicle associated with Sirius, Hagrid, and the Weasleys. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 1 23:50:42 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:50:42 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129875 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > a_svirn: > > And although I would agree that Sirius's actions and motivations are > far from clear, two things at least are given: he did try to kill > Snape and he did betray Lupin in the process. ... > Alla: > > ... the only thing which is sort of a given to me only of course is > that Sirius told SOMEBODY how to get to Shrieking Shack and Snape > heard it. ... > > I said earlier that I absolutely cannot imagine Snape listening to > what Sirius said and believing it and DOING what Sirius told him to > do. > > Whom Sirius said it to, whether he said it in a staged conversation > or not, why he said it, what was Remus role in the events and many > other things are not clear at all, to me only, of course. > > JMO of course, > > Alla bboyminn: A couple points, although I too dread a rehash of this about as much as a dread another time turner discussion. We know that, through Sirius, Snape found out how to get into the Whomping Willow. It is implied that Sirius did this intentionally. But as Alla implies, Sirius could have done this through an unnecessarily loud conversation that he knew Snape was overhearing. In this case, while Sirius is somewhat responsible for instigating the events, it was Snape's own actions that put him at risk. Yes, Sirius intended for it to go the way it did, but it was Snape's choice to act. As an alternative, Sirius may have applied some reverse psychology by first directly telling Snape how to get into the Whomping Willow, then telling him that it was a dangerous and deadly thing to do. Further assuring him that he would die a terrible death if he acted on that information. (I have the whole scenario worked out, if you would like it with quotes, but I'm sure you get the idea and can make up your own dialog.) To a 15/16 year old boy, 'if you do this you will die', is more of a challange than a deterrent. Yet it does leave Sirius with an ever-so-lovely 'plausible deniability'. Sirius can always say after the fact that he warned Snape not to go, and told him that it was deadly dangerous. In the cold light of after-the-fact analysis, this would seem like a fair and reasonable warning. However, to two rival schoolboys, they would see it for exactly what it was, a goading of one by the other. This also helps explain why the punishment was as mild as it was. Sirius had certainly broken several rules and put his classmate into danger, but Sirius did warn Snape not to go, so again the ever-so-lovely 'plausible deniability'. So, we can reasonably suspect that this was a trick Sirius was playing on Snape, but part of the trick could have been that Snape's own stubborn determination and pig-headedness would be the actual thing that put Snape in danger. Further, it is only by Snape's assertion that we are told that Sirius literally tried to kill Snape. One could speculate that in Sirius's mind, once Snape saw what was there in the Shack, he would turn tail and run faster than a bullet. Being the erogant shortsighted teenager that he was, it is very likely that Sirius never thought it through and never realized what a terrible position, he was putting Lupin in, or what a position he was putting Snape in. Some will choose to see that as out and out evil, but sadly that's very close to normal teenage male behavior. Teen male are not noted for being the most deep thinking or far thinking creatures on this earth. So we can fairly and reasonable accept that this was a VERY BAD thing for Sirius to do, and that Sirius intended for it to happen, however, without the exact details of the events and what lead up to them, we can make no real claims of evil intent or attempted murder. Snape's anger could just as easily stem from having been made a fool of, as from having his life put at risk. The 'I told you not to go' scenario would work nicely for Snape having been made a fool of. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 00:07:55 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 00:07:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Flying Motorcycle In-Reply-To: <20050601225422.96038.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129876 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Deborah Hunt wrote: > Sirius's old motorbike is in the Weasley shed. Arthur used it as the > proto-type for the flying car. The Weasleys will give it to Harry. > Then Harry will have a vehicle associated with Sirius, Hagrid, and > the Weasleys. bboyminn: In the past, I would have argued 'How did Arthur get the bike?', and countered with the fact that Hagrid was the last one to have it, and he wasn't able to give it back to Sirius or the Black family, so Hagrid likely just stored it somewhere at Hogwarts and forgot about it. However, now that I ponder it, a motorcycle would be a non-charmable muggle artifact, and therefore could have been turned over to Mr. Weasley. Further, knowing Arthur's fondness for all thinks muggle, it would have been extremely difficult for him to part with such a fastinating object. Therefore, he could very reasonably justify taking it home for some 'further offical investigation'. Though, I lean toward my Hagrid explanation, there is some fair and reasonable weight to the Arthur Weasley idea. However, I find the idea of the motorcycle wandering around loose in the Forbidden Forest very unlikely. I think the independant actions of the Weasley Ford Anglia are intended to be very unusual and unique. Just a couple thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jun 2 00:14:21 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 00:14:21 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129877 Pippin: > A proper red herring is part of the plot -- for example, we find out > the reasons for Bagman's and Karkaroff's actions in GoF, we learn why > Snape was following Harry around in PS/SS, we learn what Percy > was up to in CoS and Hagrid in OOP. But we don't have any answers > for Lupin except the ones we've been making up ourselves. > > It's very hard to reason against ESE!Lupin without calling on Flints > and plotholes, isn't it? Jen: HA! Ain't that the truth? ESE!Lupin is the most canon-tight, hard- to-defend theory on the boards, IMO. Every defense has to work around the ambiguous charaterization of Lupin in POA, which was necessary for the plot but frustratingly circular for Lupin defenders. Now I do have to disagree with the idea there's been *no* resolution to the red-herring. That moment in the Shrieking Shack, when we think Snape was right, Lupin was helping Sirius into the castle, then oops! no, that's not quite right, then finallly we can affirm Peter is the villain in the plot--that's resolution. But that scene didn't completely resolve the ambiguity around Lupin. In my own view, JKR sacrificed Lupin's characterization for Sirius in POA, and that's the bulk of the problem. Sirius had to be Good, he had to be redeemed. And therefore Lupin *had* to struggle with not turning him in, had to act the part of the coward, had to waffle, baffle, etc. And really there's a certain symmetry to that. Just as Lupin in Potterverse is sacrificed by his friends and the community at large for selfish pursuits, JKR is guilty of the same darn thing! It's fitting, really. Betsy brought up the interesting point that Lupin didn't actually want to walk down memory lane. I love that perspective. That does throw a different light on the matter, on how he interacts with Harry, how he struggles with himself over Sirius, how he struggles with 'doing the right thing' to please DD when actually *Lupin's* the one doing DD a favor! That resolves some of the ambiguous characterization for me and fits with Lupin's life, as someone who struggles constantly for mere survival unlike most of the other characters he associates with. Jen, still laughing at Betsy calling Lupin a bad ass and thinking maybe she'll upgrade her own view of Lupin to a bad-ass huggybunny. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 00:22:07 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 00:22:07 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129878 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > > > > > > a_svirn: > > > > And although I would agree that Sirius's actions and motivations are > > far from clear, two things at least are given: he did try to kill > > Snape and he did betray Lupin in the process. ... > > > > Alla: > > > > ... the only thing which is sort of a given to me only of course is > > that Sirius told SOMEBODY how to get to Shrieking Shack and Snape > > heard it. ... > > > > I said earlier that I absolutely cannot imagine Snape listening to > > what Sirius said and believing it and DOING what Sirius told him to > > do. > > > > Whom Sirius said it to, whether he said it in a staged conversation > > or not, why he said it, what was Remus role in the events and many > > other things are not clear at all, to me only, of course. > > > > JMO of course, > > > > Alla > > bboyminn: > > A couple points, although I too dread a rehash of this about as much > as a dread another time turner discussion. > > We know that, through Sirius, Snape found out how to get into the > Whomping Willow. It is implied that Sirius did this intentionally. But > as Alla implies, Sirius could have done this through an unnecessarily > loud conversation that he knew Snape was overhearing. In this case, > while Sirius is somewhat responsible for instigating the events, it > was Snape's own actions that put him at risk. Yes, Sirius intended for > it to go the way it did, but it was Snape's choice to act. > > As an alternative, Sirius may have applied some reverse psychology by > first directly telling Snape how to get into the Whomping Willow, then > telling him that it was a dangerous and deadly thing to do. Further > assuring him that he would die a terrible death if he acted on that > information. (I have the whole scenario worked out, if you would like > it with quotes, but I'm sure you get the idea and can make up your own > dialog.) To a 15/16 year old boy, 'if you do this you will die', is > more of a challange than a deterrent. Yet it does leave Sirius with an > ever-so-lovely 'plausible deniability'. > > Sirius can always say after the fact that he warned Snape not to go, > and told him that it was deadly dangerous. In the cold light of > after-the-fact analysis, this would seem like a fair and reasonable > warning. However, to two rival schoolboys, they would see it for > exactly what it was, a goading of one by the other. This also helps > explain why the punishment was as mild as it was. Sirius had certainly > broken several rules and put his classmate into danger, but Sirius did > warn Snape not to go, so again the ever-so-lovely 'plausible deniability'. > > So, we can reasonably suspect that this was a trick Sirius was playing > on Snape, but part of the trick could have been that Snape's own > stubborn determination and pig-headedness would be the actual thing > that put Snape in danger. > > Further, it is only by Snape's assertion that we are told that Sirius > literally tried to kill Snape. One could speculate that in Sirius's > mind, once Snape saw what was there in the Shack, he would turn tail > and run faster than a bullet. Being the erogant shortsighted teenager > that he was, it is very likely that Sirius never thought it through > and never realized what a terrible position, he was putting Lupin in, > or what a position he was putting Snape in. Some will choose to see > that as out and out evil, but sadly that's very close to normal > teenage male behavior. Teen male are not noted for being the most deep > thinking or far thinking creatures on this earth. > > So we can fairly and reasonable accept that this was a VERY BAD thing > for Sirius to do, and that Sirius intended for it to happen, however, > without the exact details of the events and what lead up to them, we > can make no real claims of evil intent or attempted murder. > > Snape's anger could just as easily stem from having been made a fool > of, as from having his life put at risk. The 'I told you not to go' > scenario would work nicely for Snape having been made a fool of. > > Just a few thoughts. > > Steve/bboyminn Whether Sirius said it outright, or staged the conversation for Snape to overhear, doesn't really matter, now does it? He did intend to feed him to a werewolf and how he'd brought it about is of a secondary importance. Was it a prank or a murder attempt? Depends of your idea of fun, I suppose. But what I find more disturbing about the whole business is the fact that he tried to use his friend to do his dirty work for him, to turn Lupin's misfortune to his advantage. He betrayed Lupin in every possible sense, unless of course Lupin was in on a joke which is highly improbable. a_svirn From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jun 2 00:44:25 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 00:44:25 -0000 Subject: Three Questions.- Re: JKR interview in 2 weeks, send in your ?'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129879 Chancie: > > > Katie Couric from the "Today Show" on NBC will be > > > interviewing JKR in 2 weeks, and they are asking for > > > people to submit questions to ask her during a live > > > interview from Scottland. I thought if we submitted > > > questions, that we might at lest have a chance of > > > getting some wanted answers. Just out of curiosity, > > > if you could be guaranteed that JKR would answer any > > > *ONE* question you had, which would you choose? > > > > > > Here's the link to send your questions in: > > > > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8060100 > > > > Chancie Valky: Here are three questions from me. 1. That I suggest because it has room to be answered without giving a whole lot away, and could generate some interesting discussion if it was answered well. Q1: Does anyone have (or did anyone have) a Unicorn Patronus. 2. That I suggest out of pure fantasy. It probably couldn't be answered but if it was it would be a TBay field day for me. Q2: Did Voldemort pass the power of Legilimency to Harry? 3. That I suggest as just basically a thought experiment to see the body language reaction from JKR. Q3: Has Snape ever been directly involved in a murder of someone who would be important to Harry? I will probably submit one off my own initiative, but I also think that HPFGU's group could sumbit something as a team effort, so I offer all three to be considered for that. Valky From inkling108 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 01:40:40 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:40:40 -0000 Subject: I don't get it WAS Re: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: <45701e9141f2d433aa35b57201afd644@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129880 Katherine Coble wrote: (snip) > I don't understand why there seem to be so many people so hopeful to > see the "bad" guys--ie. Snape, Malfoy, even fargin' LV--as Potentially > Good, while there seem to be at the same time many people advancing the > idea that "good guys" (ie. Lupin, Ron, Dumbledore) are really on the > verge of turning into some flesh-eating bacteria. > (Snip) I think that JKR intends for us to be fairly sure of the dichotomy > of parties in the WW. There are good things and bad things. Inkling now: Generally speaking, I agree. I don't expect any of the main good guys to turn evil, nor do I expect the main bad guys to be redeemed. The one exception is Voldemort himself, for reasons I'll explain below. If there are to be any big surprises about the true nature of characters, I expect them to concern those characters who are already in the murky middle, like Peter and Snape. (another big snip) > Lastly, as far as LV goes, I don't see how you can say he's not painted > as badly as other characters. He looks like a snake, he subsists off > of snake venom, he advocates the murder of anyone that crosses his > path, he drives others to committ crimes--even going so far as to > possess an 11 year old girl. He is so wicked that fully 99% of the WW > is afraid to even mention his name. I'd think the boat has sailed on > this guy. Besides which, the means don't justify the end. I would agree, except for one thing Voldy has that none of the other baddies has, which is his connection with Harry. That changes everything. Tom Riddle was born alone and abandoned and aspired to a state of absolute power, which means absolute aloneness. He loves nobody, he trusts nobody, he is an island. Then he encountered Harry, inadvertantly created the scar connection, and now, against his will, he is intimately bound to another human being. This is the *last* thing he wanted but he is stuck with it. Moreover by his own actions, Voldemort "marked him (Harry) as his equal" an orphan with his own burden of aloneness (as the only one who can fulfill the prophecy). So he has created a kind of twin, and he is fascinated in spite of himself. I can't imagine Rowling creating such a situation without there being the possibility of redemption for Tom Riddle -- whatever is left of him within Lord V, and there must be a little bit, or Dumbledore would not have called him "Tom." I don't know what "neither can live while the other survives" means, but I think it has to do with the mystery inherent in Harry and Lord V being sealed within this house of mirrors. In a strange way, they are the only ones who can really understand each other. But the redemption of Tom Riddle would probably mean the death of Lord Voldemort -- with a return to humanity would come a return to mortality. (this is where the prophecy language gets so slippery -- is it talking about Harry and Voldemort, or the split being that calls himself Voldemort?) And, if the future of the world depends on Voldemort being vanquished, does that mean Tom Riddle *must* be redeemed? Inkling From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jun 2 01:59:26 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:59:26 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129881 > > a_svirn: > Whether Sirius said it outright, or staged the conversation for > Snape to overhear, doesn't really matter, now does it? He did intend > to feed him to a werewolf and how he'd brought it about is of a > secondary importance. Valky: I would just like to interject to say that I agree with this statement in as much as it says Sirius managed to definitely portray these intentions. But I don't disregard that it is possible Sirius acted on different intentions without properly realising the consequences. He was after all young and troubled at the time and it is proven that Sirius, even up to his death, behaved erraticly and rashly especially when provoked. a_svirn: > Was it a prank or a murder attempt? Depends of > your idea of fun, I suppose. Valky: A hint of sarcasm there. ;D You might already know that I am a Marauders defense stalwart, I just cannot agree that this is a fair pretense. It is Snape that makes the implication that the prank was purely an exercise in fun, Sirius doesn't ever actually reinforce this directly, and mores the point Sirius even implies that he feels it was a rash and foolish mistake, not fun. a_svirn: > But what I find more disturbing about > the whole business is the fact that he tried to use his friend to do > his dirty work for him, to turn Lupin's misfortune to his advantage. > He betrayed Lupin in every possible sense, unless of course Lupin > was in on a joke which is highly improbable. Valky: In this context I think "tried" is too strong a word. But I agree that betrayal however rash and inadvertant is betrayal. I agree that Lupin was not in on these goings on, and I believe that neither was James. But they did forgive Sirius for what he'd done and remember that Lupin trusted Sirius less later on. I think Sirius acted alone and impulsively, and that if any other one of the Marauders were in on it that it would be Peter snickering in the background egging Sirius on. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 02:19:04 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 02:19:04 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129882 >>Kemper: >This leads me to my fear of "some won't like it". This next bit is sort of a rant and may include some abreviated, base language much like Vernon used... >There has got to be some closure/death ritual for Sirius. I don't necessarily need to read a chapter on it, just a sentence or two to know that it was done.< Betsy Hp: I absolutely agree that there needs to be *something*, and since JKR herself cried when she wrote Sirius' death scene, it will be strange indeed if nothing is mentioned. I loved your rant, I just had a few comments. >>Kemper: >Lupin: Has known isolation because of who he is and has also more than likely witnessed deaths during the First War. You pussy-cat werewolf! There are 27 days in a lunar month that you can sit Harry's ass down and have a talk. You got him through the Patronus lessons, but no howl to the death of Cedric? What's up?< Betsy Hp: The only thing I can figure is that Lupin stepped aside for Sirius. He has very little interaction with Harry in OotP - a noticably small amount, IMO. He hovers in the background a bit when Harry and Sirius are struggling to talk and he plays peacemaker when Sirius and Molly get into it, but Lupin has very little time with Harry himself. My theory is that Lupin very much wanted Harry and Sirius to develop a good relationship for both their sakes. He may also have been hyper-alert to stepping on Sirius' toes. So I give Lupin a bit of a pass here. HBP will be very telling, IMO. >>Kemper: >Hagrid: I hold no resentment towards you as you got to the party late and, I'm hoping, you would assume that someone has brought the topic up already so why beat a dead thestral.< Betsy Hp: I have a bit of a love/hate reaction to Hagrid. Sometimes he annoys the hell out me, sometimes he melts my heart. His conversation with Harry at the end of GoF was one of those heart melting times. "When [Hagrid] had made tea and offered around a plate of doughy cookies, he leaned back in his chair and surveyed Harry closely through his beetle-black eyes. "You all righ'?" he said gruffly. "Yeah," said Harry. "No, yeh're not," said Hagrid. "'Course yeh're not. But yeh will be." (GoF scholastic hardback p.718) I don't know why, but to me this was one of the warmest and helpful exchanges Harry has with any adult after Cedric's death. I strongly suspect that if Hagrid had been at Hogwarts at the beginning of OotP, and if he'd not been so distracted by Gawp when he did finally arrive, he could have helped Harry through some of his more stressful times. Hagrid can be pretty obtuse at times, especially when it comes to his creatures, but he's probably the most loving presence in Harry's life and he's very good to Harry. >>Kemper: >Minerva: Closest adult, physically, to Harry during most of OP. Yet you mention nothing except a little criticism regarding his retention of Dolores' hidden message in her speech. Can you transfigure a heart?< Betsy Hp: And how weird is that? I mean the woman is supposed to be a head of house! Maybe I'm defining the job incorrectly, but isn't McGonagall supposed to be a parent substitute for the children in her house? I would expect she'd be the one to go to if your parents are getting a divorce or you're homesick or your grandfather dies. Am I wrong about that? Because I don't get the sense that Gryffindor sees McGonagall as a comfort source. And she seems to take no interest in Harry's emotional well being. I mean I know all about the stiff upper lip - but isn't this taking it a step or two too far? Betsy Hp From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Wed Jun 1 22:26:09 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:26:09 -0000 Subject: PTSD Harry (was Re: "Some won't like it") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129883 > > Tonks: > > Basically Harry fits the DSMIV criteria for making that > > diagnosis, such as nightmare, flashbacks, irritability, > > hyper-vigilance, etc. I think that JKR has done a very > > good job of protraying someone with that diagnosis. > > Kemper now: > Though Harry may experience some of the criteria for PTSD, my > understanding is that it's not a 'disorder' unless it affects > two or more aspects of one's life: school, work, social, family. > Which isn't to say that Harry isn't experiencing Post Traumatic > Stress...it's just not a Disorder. Hi Just wanted to make a note on PTSD - Much of the language in mental health seems to be arbitrary and any thing that fits outside the "norm" (whatever that may be) would be considered as a "Disorder" - I don't agree with that rational - especially when the reactions are completely justified from a traumatic experience, but as a rehab counsellor, you don't worry too much about the labels, rather the symptoms and experiences (even if they are subjective) are more important in trying to get some lives working in a more functional and productive way. Flashbacks are definitely part of PTSD - many people who have car accidents (and especially if they see death) have these experiences, although on a lighter side....Harry doesn't seem to carry the fear through him in comparison....unless someone can remind me otherwise...for example, he doesn't freeze up in shock, or suffer from anxiety...although maybe he expresses this through his anger???? pot_of_harry From betsymarie123 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 2 01:36:06 2005 From: betsymarie123 at hotmail.com (Betsy Corts) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:36:06 +0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129884 >Nieky: > > Just wondering, why would this room, containing a force that > > is needed to conquer VM, be closed and apparently protected? > > > > Why not "unleash" it on LV while he was in the DOM? > >Geoff: > I don't think that we are told that this power will > actually "conquer" Voldemort in a physical sense.... > > > This force doesn't sound as if it is some sort of weapon - like > a hand grenade - that you can hurl at Voldemort. It is obviously > some sort of power which is held personally by someone. There > have been various suggestions as to what it might be but I > believe it is something intangible; it can't be handled or picked > up or handed around. My own vote, for what it's worth is love; > others as I know from the past will have differing ideas.... Betsy: I've been reading this post, which btw I found it very interesting, and I just had an idea why the door at the DoM was locked. Maybe it just needs someone to channel whatever is in it. Ok, let me explain. I guess the door was locked because the person who holds a power such as the one there hasn't use or channel or be in touch with it yet. So, if Harry has that power within himself, he just needs to be in contact with that power for the door to open and then use whatever is hidden there. I hope this would make sense. Another thought, what happened with the door while Harry was thinking about Sirius during LV's attack? Was the door unlocked for a few minutes?? I don't know perhaps I'm just watching too much sci-fi, but what if... From lyraofjordan at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 01:57:41 2005 From: lyraofjordan at yahoo.com (lyraofjordan) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:57:41 -0000 Subject: JKR interview in 2 weeks, send in your ?'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129885 Chancie wrote: > > Katie Couric from the "Today Show" on NBC will be > > interviewing JKR in 2 weeks, and they are asking for > > people to submit questions to ask her > bboyminn replied: > Just a few thoughts on question asking. First, it's one thing > to ask a question that you would dearly love answered, which > is a nice fantasy, but this is a real 'Q & A', so I would > suggest you temper the questions you would LIKE answered with > the idea of what JKR is likely to answer. Lyra adds another thought: Don't know who at NBC has the task of culling thru all these questions, but I think something that person will be keeping in mind, and therefore anyone hoping to get a question answered should also bear in mind, is that the 'Today' show has a broad general audience with many people who (gasp!) don't care about the minutiae that comes up among the more dedicated fans. I think they'll be looking for questions that most people can at least follow. In other words, questions such as "who sent the Devil's Snare as a Christmas present to Bode at St. Mungo's" (just to pull an arcane example out of thin air) aren't going to be selected. Questions about familiar characters and familiar plot lines would, I would venture to guess, be more likely to be selected from the slush pile that's probably growing higher every minute over at MSNBC. (just my 2 knuts) From k.coble at comcast.net Thu Jun 2 04:48:47 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:48:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR interview in 2 weeks, send in your ?'s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129886 On Jun 1, 2005, at 8:57 PM, lyraofjordan wrote: > Chancie wrote: > > > Katie Couric from the "Today Show" on NBC will be > > > interviewing JKR in 2 weeks, and they are asking for > > > people to submit questions to ask her > > > bboyminn replied: > > but this is a real 'Q & A', so I would > > suggest you temper the questions you would LIKE answered with > > the idea of what JKR is likely to answer. > > > Lyra adds another thought: > > Don't know who at NBC has the task of culling thru all these > questions, > I would venture to guess, be more likely to be selected from the > slush pile that's probably growing higher every minute over at > MSNBC. (just my 2 knuts) > K: Plot Question I'd love to see answered: "What is the purpose of the veil, and are those on the other side truly dead?" WW Logistics Question I'd love to see answered: "For what is money needed in the WW and when is money not necessary? For example, some foodstuffs appear to cost money, while others (such as the cream sauce from Mrs. Weasley's wand) appear to be conjurable and thus not costly." Typical Question that Katie Couric will most likely ask: "How do you find the time to write with a husband and three beautiful children?" and "Now that you are so wealthy, where do you buy your shoes?" and "What was it like to meet the Queen?" Not that I'm cynical or harbour a secret loathing for Katie and her overall perkiness. Or anything. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 2 05:24:35 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:24:35 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129887 "madorganization" wrote: > he suddenly decides to play the fame card. > I know he's been through a lot in the > few months before we see him in book 5, > but I don't see that this particular attitude > change was well constructed. Anger in > this situation is natural,his sudden embrace > of "Harry Potter-ness" is not. I think you are referring to the time when Harry finds out that Ron has been made a prefect and he Harry has not. Harry thinks (quite correctly) that he has done more and suffered more and is more capable than Ron, or more than anyone for that matter; if Harry did not have these thoughts he would not be human, or at least not be very intelligent. It is to Harry's credit that even though he has these thoughts he says nothing that would spoil Ron's rare moment of triumph. I do not think people should be condemned for having thoughts, particularly if those thoughts are true. Eggplant From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 2 05:39:21 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:39:21 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129888 "niekycrins" wrote: > why would this room, containing a force that is needed > to conquer VM, be closed and apparently protected? > Why not "unleash" it on LV while he was in the DOM? I hope it's more than just love, otherwise the story could get so sweet we'd all get diabetes. Love probably has something to do with it but there must be something more than that because Dumbledore says it is not only more wonderful than death it is more terrible too. Perhaps courage and skill and sacrifice and "old magic" and something else that's hard to put a finger on; I guess you could say the room contains The Right Stuff. So why is it locked? I don't think the wizards locked it and are in fact trying to unlock it but without success. I think in book 7 Harry will find a way to unlock it, something even Dumbledore couldn't do. He knows that opening the door is the only way to destroy Voldemort but Harry also knows that if he does so he will die too; remember that powerful "old magic" involves sacrifice. I predict that in the second to last chapter of book 7 entitled "The Man Who Died", the one just before epilog where the adult lives of the surviving characters are described, he opens that door and Harry Potter is no more. Eggplant From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 06:36:43 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 06:36:43 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > A_svirn > > Whether Sirius said it outright, or staged the conversation for > Snape to overhear, doesn't really matter, now does it? He did intend > to feed him to a werewolf and how he'd brought it about is of a > secondary importance. Was it a prank or a murder attempt? Depends of > your idea of fun, I suppose. But what I find more disturbing about > the whole business is the fact that he tried to use his friend to do > his dirty work for him, to turn Lupin's misfortune to his advantage. > He betrayed Lupin in every possible sense, unless of course Lupin > was in on a joke which is highly improbable. > > a_svirn bboyminn: OK, you've heard my 'Reverse Psychology' and 'I told you so' scenarios, now let me propose a third, and I do this because I want everyone to consider Snape's own culpability in these events. Scenario - The Lily Ploy Sirius approaches Snape and says... I have a message for you from Lily. Go to the Whomping Willow at midnight, prode the knot on the tree with a stick and it will freeze. That will allow you to enter the tunnel under the tree. Lily said she would meet you at the far end of the tunnel. How does Sirius's and Snape' culpability in that last scenario compare to the first two? In the first two, Sirius knows Snape will act on the information, but Sirius doesn't send Snape into the tunnel. Snape comes to that conclusion and makes that decision on his own. In this more recent scenario Sirius intentionally causes Snape to enter the tunnel on false pretenses. He flat out SENDS Snape into the tunnel. It is done by deceit and false pretenses. In this last case, it's reasonable and expected for Snape to go. In the first two examples, and especially in the 'I told you so' example, Snape is acting totally counter to what he has been told. In the 'I told you so case', Snape is specifically told NOT to go into the tunnel. We all agree that in all cases, Sirius's actions were wrong, but in this last case, they were they were far more wrong. In the first two cases Snape must take a much greater share of the blame, but in the last case, while Snape must accept some blame, his part is much smaller. Restated, in the first two cases, Sirius INDIRECTLY aids in someone putting themselves in harms way. In the last case, Sirius flat out and directly puts Snape in harms way. I have to believe you can see the moral difference in these cases, and further have to believe you can see the degree of shift in blame. In no case is anyone blameless, but in the first two cases, a greater share of the blame falls on Snape. Part of my point is that without the details, we can't be sure to what degree each of the player deserves blame. So, without details, I personally think that any references by third parties to 'murder' are over the top. Just one man's opinion. Steve/bboyminn From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 2 06:52:30 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 06:52:30 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129890 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "niekycrins" wrote: > > > why would this room, containing a force that is needed > > to conquer VM, be closed and apparently protected? > > Why not "unleash" it on LV while he was in the DOM? Eggplant: > I hope it's more than just love, otherwise the story could get so > sweet we'd all get diabetes. Love probably has something to do with > it but there must be something more than that because Dumbledore says > it is not only more wonderful than death it is more terrible too. Geoff: No, we won't all get diabetes because it's real, deep love which /is/ more wonderful than death. Back in January 2004, I posted message 89069 which was in a thread about the locked room where I said that the room could could contain both truth and love; the following is part of what I wrote: "Turning to Love. The problem with "love" is that, certainly in the English language, it is a word which has a wide range of meanings and is often used very loosely. It can range from "I love chocolate ice- cream" (which is really expressing a liking) to "I love you, my darling" to the altruistic love which can show itself in self- sacrifice ? Lily protecting Harry as an example. I have on two occasions at least referred to C.S.Lewis' "The Four Loves" in which he writes on the four Greek words for love ? eros, philos, agape and the one which always slips my memory(!)**; each one looking at a different facet of love. The deepest love ? at least in my opinion as a Christian ? is agape which is, I suppose, best described as the altruistic, serving, love which is not seeking anything in return but seeks only the best interest of its recipient." Jesus said "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13 New International Version). That is not solely a Christain prerogative; we see it often in the world today. I am not suggesting this either as the only way in which Harry can harness the power of the locked room. **Just for completeness,the missing word was "storge" - this was before the word had emerged in a possible title for Book 6. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 06:56:53 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 06:56:53 -0000 Subject: JKR interview in 2 weeks, send in your ?'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129891 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > > On Jun 1, 2005, at 8:57 PM, lyraofjordan wrote: > > > Chancie wrote: > > > > Katie Couric from the "Today Show" on NBC will be > > > > interviewing JKR in 2 weeks, and they are asking for > > > > people to submit questions to ask her > > > > > bboyminn replied: > > > > > > but this is a real 'Q & A', so I would suggest you temper the > > >questions you would LIKE answered with the idea of what JKR is > > likely to answer. > > K: > > Plot Question I'd love to see answered: > > "What is the purpose of the veil, and are those on the other side > truly dead?" > bboyminn: The perfect question to illustrate my point. Speaking of the purpose of the Veil and whether people on the other side are dead, I think, deals too much with the future story. However, it could be rephrased to something like this. "I know you can't tell us about how the Veiled Archway will appear in the next books, but could you give us some of the backstory and history of the Veiled Archway in the Department of Mysteries?" That question, if answered, would give us a lot of information that we could use to guess what will happen in future books. > K: > WW Logistics Question I'd love to see answered: > > "For what is money needed in the WW and when is money not necessary? > For example, some foodstuffs appear to cost money, while others > (such as the cream sauce from Mrs. Weasley's wand) appear to be > conjurable and thus not costly." > bboyminn: Serves as an illustration, but that particular question has already been asked and answered. Things that are conjured are impermanent; they come from nothing and quickly return to nothing. You would starve to death eating conjured food, on the other hand, you could eat conjured ice cream by the gallon and never gain an ounce. > K: > Typical Question that Katie Couric will most likely ask: > > "How do you find the time to write with a husband and three > beautiful children?" and "Now that you are so wealthy, where do you > buy your shoes?" and "What was it like to meet the Queen?" > > Not that I'm cynical or harbour a secret loathing for Katie and her > overall perkiness. Or anything. > > K bboyminn: Sadly you are right, she will probably ask the same old tired unoriginal questions that everyone else has asked a thousand times before. They are going for quick easy sound bites, not actual information. Steve/bboyminn From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Thu Jun 2 07:29:12 2005 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:29:12 +0200 Subject: ESE!Arthur Message-ID: <9b719c9ea44d4d0e7dbd5adb3223e67e@m4x.org> No: HPFGUIDX 129892 Jen Reese >HA! Ain't that the truth? ESE!Lupin is the most canon-tight, hard- >to-defend theory on the boards, IMO Olivier I am not sure. I would rather say that ESE!Lupin has the most dedicated, eloquent and talented defender. In fact, I have sometimes thought that ESE!Theories are in a sense dishonest theories in the sense that one could take any character in the series and build a convincing case for him being evil. I wanted to do so with a random character but soon discovered that ESE!McGonagall and ESE!Sirius already existed as well as ESE!Percy, ESE!Fudge and ESE!Dumbledore (ESE!Pigwidgeon also exists, as unlikely as this may seem). ESE!Snape is too easy. So that left me with Arthur Weasley. Well, here is my try. So Arthur Weasley is evil, shocking at first but makes a lot of sense. First of all, his motives are crystal clear: he is a Pureblood and has not the status he feels he deserves. He has been relegated to an obscure broom cupboard, because of his love for Muggles we are told, but more probably because he is an eccentric with a very dubious behavior towards laws (illegaly bewitching artifacts, going out of his way to help Moody escape the law...). He has grown a deep resentment towards Muggles and the Wizarding World as it is, and as thus joined the Dark Lord (already during the first WW). That Arthur feels under-appreciated is at any rate canon: Percy knows it, Hermione feels it, Ron feels it (most notably in OoP chapter 4). Now, what has he actually done? Plenty of things. He has passed informations from the Ministry to Voldemort during the first WW. He has arranged a staged fight with Lucius Malfoy, his old accomplice, in order to ensure that Lucius will be able to slip Riddle's diary to his own daughter in the confusion that ensues. Also note that in CoS, we discover that Lucius strongly advises his son to at least pretend to be friendly towards Harry. Undoubtedly, Arthur has also done so to his own son. The convergence is odd. Besides, despite Harry's tip that Malfoy has many dark artifacts, Arthur never take actions, and it is up to Dumbledore to warn Malfoy. In PoA, he insists on telling Harry about Sirius, hoping to spur his curiosity, just as Malfoy does. Another example of a strange convergence: how would Draco know if not by his Father telling him to slip a hint about it? He, of course, knows everything about the Triwizard Tournament in GoF (the book where serious doubts start) so he tipped his Master, and ensures that everyone knows he thinks highly of Moody in order to reinforce Barty's cover. He also covered for Barty right after Barty's attack on Moody. Think about it: a powerful and paranoid Auror is defeated by a man that has just passed many years under the Imperius curse without leaving any spurious hints? I believe their fight left many signs that were removed by Arthur. He could of course very well have conjured the Dark Mark during the QWC, and was conspicuous only by his absence during the Third task. Could he have been in a graveyard? Note also that Dumbledore doesn't trust him fully: he wasn't in the original order and Dumbledore seems not so sure he has a place in the new one. "Am I right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?" are his words. So there is a doubt then? And there are plenty of other clues... Barty Crouch under Moody's appearance implies that Arthur would "would know that one. Gave the Ministry a lot of trouble at one time, the Imperius Curse." Has Arthur specialized in it under the glorious years of his reign? OoP is his triumph. He basically sets everything in motion in this book. First, he tries to get Harry expelled by hiding him in his office and his insisting that they have plenty of time while perfectly knowing the time has changed. His colleague ruins his plan, but he still manages not to loose his morning by performing the Imperius curse on Sturgis while pretending to wait for Harry outside. Remark by the way how very similar his behavior towards Malfoy is to his behavior towards Shacklebolt. We assume that former is genuine and the later staged, but what if it was the reverse? He could also have tipped the Malfoys about 12, Grimmauld Place via Kreacher. Then there's the staged attack. Here we have Voldemort in snake form unable to finish off a deeply wounded Arthur Weasley? Who are we kidding? This was a deliberately staged attack in order to convince Harry that his visions were useful, and of course it worked perfectly well. Harry explicitly refers to his vision of Arthur to overcome Ron and Hermione's doubts about Sirius being prisoner: 'How d'you explain Ron's dad then, what was all that about, how come I knew what had happened to him?'. And where was he during the battle at the Ministry? Think about it: the most dramatic event of OoP is the direct consequence of Harry believing he saved Arthur's life. Suppose Arthur had died (much more realistic, seeing he was already almost dead and pitched against Voldemort). Then Harry would have been devastated but would have had an incredibly strong motivation to learn Occlumency ('Do it for my Dad, Harry' said Ron miserably not to mention that Harry wouldn't want to witness his friends dying one after the other under his own eyes). Of course, I don't believe one word of what I have written, this was just my attempt to prove that with enough dedication, one can find many many fishy things about any character. Indeed, if I was to take seriously what precedes, I would say that the "staged fight theory" with Lucius in CoS, the "cover Barty theory" in GoF and the "staged snake attack theory" in OoP are easily as convincing as the best arguments in favor of ESE!Lupin (and Dumbledore's suspicion well worths Sirius' suspicion, not to mention that if we are to take seriously Sirius' suspicion, Snape is worst than Voldemort). Ditto for Arthur's alleged motives. Arthur and Lupin are both struggling economically because of choices or personality traits the Wizarding World considers anomalous. They have both been denied a proper place (rights for Lupin, a place worth of the purity of his blood for Arthur) they hope Voldemort can give them. As it is, I personally don't believe in any theory. So Lupin could be evil, Arthur could be Voldemort right-hand's man, Crookshanks could be the Animagus form of Florence spying for Dumbledore's brother who really is Hermione in disguise. But I'll wait and see. Olivier [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jun 2 09:09:35 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:09:35 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129893 a_svirn wrote: > Was it a prank or a murder attempt? Depends of > your idea of fun, I suppose. Valky replied: >>A hint of sarcasm there. ;D You might already know that I am a Marauders defense stalwart, I just cannot agree that this is a fair pretense. It is Snape that makes the implication that the prank was purely an exercise in fun, Sirius doesn't ever actually reinforce this directly, and mores the point Sirius even implies that he feels it was a rash and foolish mistake, not fun.<< Rebecca: (hello Valky!) I am wondering what makes you think that Sirius thinks it was a rash or foolish mistake. He certainly seemed to imply that about what Harry saw in the pensieve incident, but his reaction to the prank (at least in the shrieking shack, when admittably he's not thinking quite straight) is that he hasn't changed his mind about it. A bit of PoA for you: ' "He has his reasons... you see, Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me --" Black made a derisive noise. "It served him right," he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to... hoping he could get us expelled...." ' [snip] ' "Sirius thought it would be -- er -- amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me." ' Sirius' attitude is quite clear. Sadly, he is not apologetic (even in front of Lupin) and he doesn't correct Lupin about it being an "amusing" thing to do. Even years and years later, he still doesn't see how stupid and reckless of a "prank" that was. -Rebecca / HunterGreen From Snarryfan at aol.com Thu Jun 2 09:36:01 2005 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:36:01 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Was: Re: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129894 > Alla: > > I so don't want to open The Prank again, but these two things are > most definitely NOT given to me. I will send you links to some of the > Prank discussions later, if you'd like ( I am away from my home > computer at the moment), but the only thing which is sort of a given > to me only of course is that Sirius told SOMEBODY how to get to > Shrieking Shack and Snape heard it. We don't even know, IMO that > Sirius said it directly to the Snape. Snape overhearing it seems more > likely to me. The discussion is already avanced on the scenarii, but if you want I have Jo's word that Sirius wanted it (chat 2004): Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow? JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course. For her, he wanted to send Snape to Lupin, but apparantly, "because he followed us trying to expell us" is not the big reason. Christelle From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jun 2 10:28:31 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:28:31 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129895 > a_svirn wrote: > > Was it a prank or a murder attempt? Depends of > > your idea of fun, I suppose. > > Valky replied: > > It is Snape that makes the implication that the prank was purely an > exercise in fun, Sirius doesn't ever actually reinforce this > directly, and mores the point Sirius even implies that he feels it > was a rash and foolish mistake, not fun.<< > > Rebecca: (hello Valky!) > I am wondering what makes you think that Sirius thinks it was a rash > or foolish mistake. He certainly seemed to imply that about what > Harry saw in the pensieve incident, but his reaction to the prank > (at least in the shrieking shack, when admittably he's not thinking > quite straight) is that he hasn't changed his mind about it. > > ' "He has his reasons... you see, Sirius here played a trick on him > which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me --" > Black made a derisive noise. > "It served him right," he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find > out what we were up to... hoping he could get us expelled...." ' > [snip] > ' "Sirius thought it would be -- er -- amusing, to tell Snape all he > had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and > he'd be able to get in after me." ' > Valky: Oops Mea Culpa, I was confusing the two issues. The derisive noise and Lupins statement prove me dead wrong about that one, sorry a_svirn. Now I have still as of always believed that the prank was not quite what Snape makes it out to be in the shrieking shack, but I guess its purely academic now if I give the reason for it, since I bodged my first attempt so awfully. Just in case someone does still want to take my POV seriously after I've coated my face in egg like this, I'll just explain that I read the derisive noise Sirius makes as something other than a snicker at the original amusement that was the prank. OTOH my foot is still officially in my mouth from last post so I had better shut it. LOL ;P Thanks Hunter. Valky From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 11:43:55 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:43:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Was: Re: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129896 Christelle: The discussion is already avanced on the scenarii, but if you want I have Jo's word that Sirius wanted it (chat 2004): Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow? JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course. For her, he wanted to send Snape to Lupin, but apparantly, "because he followed us trying to expell us" is not the big reason. Alla: I LOVE this quote, Christelle. Don't you see how interestingly it is worded? :-) The part that keeps me the most hopeful is of course "you'll find out more about it in due course" So, we are told clearly that there ARE holes in Prank backstory and Sirius/Snape story and we will learn something about it. Now, look at the question . It does not ask - what made Sirius decide to kill Snape . It asks what made Sirius decide to send Snape to Willow and in the answer not ONLY JKR says that Sirius loathed Snape, but does add that feeling was entirely mutual. So, what did happen due to the fact that feeling was entirely mutual? Why add the part about Snape's loathing, if Sirius supposed to be the only guilty party? Nope, I am still reserving judgment about Prank till all holes are revealed. Just my opinion, Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 2 12:36:37 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:36:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129897 > bboyminn: > > OK, you've heard my 'Reverse Psychology' and 'I told you so' > scenarios, now let me propose a third, and I do this because I want > everyone to consider Snape's own culpability in these events. Potioncat: Sorry, I don't buy it. If Snape had known that a werewolf was in the tunnel and that it was dangerous to go there, AND he then used Sirius' information to go in: then yes, Snape had some share of the blame. However, he didn't know that. I give both 16-year-old boys the same benefit of the doubt. (having an impulsive, invincible 16 year-old myself.) However it happened, Severus expected to discover something about Remus; and Sirius expected Severus to be scared out of his socks. Given the consquences that we've all worked out, it is telling that the adult Sirius doesn't have any remorse for the joke. From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Thu Jun 2 12:48:02 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:48:02 -0000 Subject: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129898 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" > wrote: > Maybe as Potioncat speculates, she was in a muggle > > hospital or orphanage -- but why wouldn't she seek magical help at > > such a crucial moment? Did she reject the WW or was she > rejected? > > Arthur Levine said we would learn how Voldy became Voldy in book 6 > > and I'm guessing his mother's story has a lot to do with it. > > > > > Tonks: > I think that Tom Riddle's mother was disowned by her family and they > were, like the Malfoys, people with a lot of power and influence. > She could not show her face anywhere. She had married a Muggle and > was expecting a Muggle child, a half-breed. She had "befouled the > grand and noble house of ___", and the bloodline as well. She was a > disgrace to the WW. She was then abandoned by that slime of a > Muggle that she married and there she was. She was in the Muggle > world but could not do magic there for fear of being arrested by the > MOM for doing magic in the presence of Muggles. She did not want her > child born in Azkaban. She died alone in a Muggle hospital. > > Her son was left to be raised by Muggles in an unloving environment. > Any sign of his *magic* was ridiculed by the other kids and probably > feared by the adults. He was a problem child from the beginning. Is > it any wonder that Tom grew to hate the Muggles so much? Maybe he > even hates his mother and the whole idea of "Love". If she hadn't > fallen in "love" with one of *them* he would be the important > respected wizard from a pureblood family. Poor Tom. Look at what > all of his anger and rage has made of him. I suspect that DD has > shed a tear for Tom too over the years. Maybe this is why LV isn't > painted by the author to be as evil to us as some of the others such > as Bella, or Umbridge. Or maybe it is just the bleeding heart > liberal in me. I hate Umbridge, but still have hope for Tom. > > Tonks_op Deborah now, and still unsnippable - grrr! OK, this discussion is potentially something of a tear-jerker. But there's a counter-example which reveals the limitations not only of WW medicine (oops - healing - sorry!) but also of the WW's greatest power. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you: Mrs Crouch. The lady is dying. The lady loves her son enough to sacrifice herself for him. The son watches this happen, and is an adult at the time and well aware of all the nuances and consequences. The lady dies. The son continues ESE! with redoubled enthusiasm. Bleak, yes. Unexpected, certainly. What surprises await us in mid-July? Deborah, all eagerness From elfundeb at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 12:45:52 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (Debbie) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:45:52 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: HBP Spoiler Policy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129899 Greetings from Hexquarters! As we all count down the days until the release of HBP, the rumour- mill is beginning to spin faster and faster, spitting out tidbits (whether true or false) about what we'll find between the covers come 16 July. Beginning today, we would like members to use the "HBP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for HBP. Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "HBP: It's Salazar!" rather defeats the point of the HBP prefix. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "HBP: Harry, Snape." Harry and Snape are so interconnected in previous books that this isn't a spoiler. "HBP: Harry, Lupin" on the other hand, *would* be a spoiler, as we don't know whether Lupin is in Book 6. "HBP: Lupin" would be better (as for all we know, you might be posting on why Lupin isn't in the book). Remember that a subject header which has *both* a chapter number and a subject is in itself a spoiler. 'HBP: Chapter 32 - Lupin' tells readers that Lupin turns up in Chapter 32. For a reader only on Chapter 7, that's a spoiler. If you want to discuss a particular chapter, use chapter numbers *only*. 'HBP: Chapter 32' is fine. Also, because Yahoo's format may make reading some text impossible to avoid, please include a few lines of S P O I L E R space before revealing any spoilers. Be sure to type characters into your spoiler lines, or Yahoo will skip over the blank lines and display the spoiler. What's a spoiler? Use common sense. A spoiler is anything you KNOW will be in Book 6. Not as in 'I saw it in a dream'; more 'I saw it in the Scholastic catalog/ on the cover art / on the press release.' Anything that you THINK will be in HBP based on evidence in Books 1-5, or your own wild speculation is *not* a spoiler. We've been speculating about what we THINK will be in HBP for the last couple of years, after all... So, if you KNOW that parts of your post include information that will be in HBP, you need the HBP: prefix and spoiler space. Please begin using the new "HBP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter -- beginning today. And remember, if you have any comments about any HBP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com And if you don't use it, don't be surprised if you suddenly find yourself being hung upside down over the Slytherin Common Room fire. ;-) "The truth." Dumbledore sighed. "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." [PS/SS Chapter 17] Be like Dumbledore. Tell people as little as possible. ;-) Counting down to 16 July, The Administration Team From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 12:52:01 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:52:01 -0000 Subject: Filk (and answer to filk support query) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129900 Dungrollin wrote: > Apologies, I said I'd never do it again, I honestly thought > I'd only ever write one FILK. Turns out it's addictive. > *Just say no*. Is there a support group I can join...? > Ginger: Ah, no, my dear. There is no help for you. Resistance is futile; you will be assimilated. So I dedicate this one to you. Relax, enjoy, and filk again. Uncle Albus/Slytherin Severus to the tune of Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey by Sir Paul McCartney. The scene: James and Sirius have been taken to McGonnagal's office after the Prank. Anxious to eavesdrop, Severus has hidden inside an oddly echoing adjoining broom closet. DD enters the scene. "Explain yourselves." he says. James and Sirius affect their most beguiling personas and wheedling tones. JAMES AND SIRIUS We're so sorry, Uncle Albus. We're so sorry we've brought Gryffindor to shame. We're so sorry, Uncle Albus, But we're really not as bad As dear old Sevvie wants to claim. We're so sorry, Uncle Albus. We're so sorry, but we thought it was a joke to play. We're so sorry, Uncle Albus, But old Sevvie is a git and we just thought he'd go away. SEVERUS (in the closet) Heads of the Marauders ('rauders) Heads are gonna fly. Heads of the Marauders ('rauders) Heads are gonna fly. DUMBLEDORE Slytherin Severus notified me He followed your advise and he went up to a tree. He went to take a look and just what did he see- But Werewolf Guy. (The full moon had arose, so he was no more a guy.) SEVERUS Heads of the Marauders ('rauders) Heads are gonna fly. Heads of the Marauders ('rauders) Heads are gonna fly. Oh, I feel a little tipsy- Get around. (get around) Get around this, Stag and Hound. Wanna see you get around. (repeat) (reprise of Heads of the Marauders) At this time, we don't know if they did get around it, but there are two more books. Maybe we'll find out. Ginger, who is so glad to get this post sent. The computer ate it the first time, and the power went out during the second writing. Hopefully the third time is a charm. From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Thu Jun 2 13:25:55 2005 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:25:55 -0000 Subject: JKR interview in 2 weeks, send in your ?'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129901 Something I really want to know is this, though it's probably too complicated and nerdily specific for a tv show question. I was wondering about the difference, in magical terms, between portraits that can obviously communicate and seem to have an awareness and wizarding photographs, which move but do not. *As regards portraits, do the wizards in them have true awareness, as if they were somehow still alive within the portrait if they were dead, for example, or is it a bit like an interactive simulation? *If someone is alive and has a portrait somewhere, can knowledge pass between the two, so that if portraitdumbledore! was watching something happen, realdumbledore! would know? *Does creating a portrait leave someting of the person behind in the way that becoming a ghost does? I starting thinking that it would be lovely to be able to continue to communicate with a dead person through keeping their portrait with you and that led to me wondering if that would really be what you would be doing, even in the wizrding world. If it is, I don't see why everyone doesn't have their portrait painted! Snapesangel From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 2 14:40:54 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:40:54 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129902 I must beg the list's indulgence for starting with the prank. Putting Lupin's history in chronological order makes it easier to understand, but it also puts the most speculative area of the theory first. There is more than one clue to show that Lupin could have been Voldemort's spy and his second-in-command, that he could have sent the Lestranges to attack the Longbottoms, aided Quirrell and Lucius with their plotting, arranged for Peter Pettigrew's escape, helped to murder Cedric, and killed off Sirius Black. But for this bit, what I mostly have to go on is Snape's claim that Lupin was in on it (1) -- "it" being the "highly amusing joke" that would have resulted in Snape's death(2). Since Snape doesn't give any evidence for his belief, it seems merely another symptom of his irrational hate -- except that if Lupin did indeed plot to kill him, Snape's hatred isn't irrational at all! Snape's suspicion does not make a good red herring because it is never explained. On the other hand it makes an excellent Chekhov's gun -- a plot element introduced and left hanging with the expectation that it will prove important to later events. (The name comes from Chekhov's often quoted rule that if you bring a rifle onstage, someone must think of using it.) Because nothing is made of Snape's suspicion, no contrary evidence is presented, which means a brief confession would be enough for Rowling to establish Lupin's guilt if it comes time to reveal All. Moreover, chronologically and psychologically, involvement in the prank forms a plausible foundation for what I suspect to be Lupin's role in later events. The story of the prank in canon is simply told. Snape wanted to know where Lupin went every month. One evening, he spotted Madam Pomfrey taking Lupin out to the Whomping Willow. Sirius thought it would be amusing to tell Snape how to get inside. "Of course" Snape tried it. If he had gotten as far as the Shrieking Shack, he would have met a full grown werewolf, but James, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back. Ever since then, Snape has known that Lupin was a werewolf. (3) The beginning and end of the story are maddeningly incomplete. How did Sirius find out what Snape had seen? How did James learn what Sirius did? What happened afterward? Was anyone punished? But the biggest gap comes right in the middle. As befits the theme of Book Three, it has to do with *timing*. The joke will be pointless if Snape enters the willow when Lupin is not there or finds him before he transforms. For the prank to work, the timing of the transformation must be predictable, and Lupin must be transformed while he is the Shrieking Shack. This has grave implications for the timing of Pettigrew's escape. But for now, we are dealing with the earlier event. Iif Snape wanted to know where the willow passage led, wouldn't it have made more sense for him to explore it when Lupin wasn't likely to be in there? On the face of it the answer is implied in the text. Snape followed Lupin hoping to get him in trouble. (4) But Snape knew that Lupin's visit to the willow was sanctioned, after all he'd seen Madam Pomfrey taking him there. The willow was forbidden territory; if Snape was caught snooping inside it, he, not Lupin, would have some explaining to do. (5) Possibly Snape already suspected Lupin was a werewolf and meant to expose him...but this seems unlikely too. Werewolves belong to the Ministry of Magic's most dangerous category of fantastic beasts. (6) Surely no wizard in his right mind, still less one who, unlike Hagrid or Sirius, was known to be cunning and clever and good at keeping himself out of trouble, (7) would take on a werewolf alone. What possessed Snape to follow Lupin into the willow on a night of full moon? Canon places much stress on the ways in which one wizard may induce another to take a rash or foolish action: potions that bewitch the mind and ensnare the senses (8), the confundus charm (9), the dreaded Imperius curse (10). Sirius could have used one of these to make sure that his "joke" was effective, but it seems most unlike Sirius to have done so. I can believe that Sirius would assault Snape and try to murder him outright -- but I can't see him setting a trap, not all on his own, anyway. In all the time Sirius was after Pettigrew, that is one tactic he doesn't seem to have tried. Could Snape have been bewitched by someone else? If he suspected this, would he have overstated his case as usual, shrilly accusing James and all his friends of a deliberate plot against him? We can imagine how it might have looked to Dumbledore; on the one hand, three exceptionally bright and popular students and their tagalong pal Peter, troublemakers but surely not murderers, on the other, one unhappy Slytherin with a grudge against them. It seems that the use of magical coercion is difficult to establish after the fact - - no one could prove or disprove Lucius Malfoy's claim that he was under the Imperius curse. Legilimency might not help; there are hints that werewolves are immune. (11) Sirius's admission would seem to be much more plausible than some wild conspiracy theory. Why would Lupin take part in a joke that, if it worked, would expose his secret? But there was more than one secret to be concealed. Lupin was engaged in activities far more dangerous and reprehensible than turning into a vicious monster once a month. He had aided three of his friends in the practice of illegal magic (12), and every month, with their help, he was evading the protections which had been set in place for his safety and invading the castle grounds and the village of Hogsmeade. (13) Snape's vigilance might mean the end of these outings, the only thing which made Lupin's tranformations bearable. (14) But worse than that, it might not. Sirius and James were reckless and high-spirited (15). They might decide that they could evade Snape's vigilance and let the werewolf roam again. If Snape spotted the Animagi and learned their secret, then not only Lupin but all of his friends would be expelled and subject to penalties severe enough to make hardbitten Rita Skeeter consider a year of poverty and unemployment preferable. Besides that, the Marauders might have been held responsible for their depredations in Hogsmeade: "There were near misses, many of them." (16) Innocent lives had been threatened. There was a good chance that Lupin would get away with it. He was used to keeping secrets; he had the means of disposing of the body; blood, shrieks and signs of a struggle would all be taken as the usual aftermath of his transformation. (17) Snape's disappearance might have remained a mystery. Even if Lupin was suspected, what proof would there be? Only Sirius would know that Lupin had been in on it. But if Sirius was not thinking of murder, he wouldn't suppose that Lupin was either. Sirius probably only hoped for the sight of a terrified Snape fleeing from the monster's lair, though he told the Trio it would have served Snape right if something worse had happened. (18) Lupin could have trusted him to keep silent; Sirius was above all loyal to his friends (19). It would be a desperate plan -- but Lupin might have been desperate enough to try it. Fortunately for him, somehow James found out what Sirius had done, went after Snape and saved him. Snape, caught out of bounds, was forbidden to tell what he saw, ( and probably warned to stay far away from the willow henceforth.) The Marauders' secrets remained safe. Next: Part II -- The Spy Notes -- All references US hardcovers, except FBAWTFF (1) PoA ch 18 p 357 (2) PoA ch 14 p 285 (3) PoA ch 18 p 357 (4) "sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to...hoping he could get us expelled..." PoA ch 18 p 356 (5) "we were forbidden to go near it" PoA ch 10 p 186 (6) FBAWTFT, entry on the werewolf, p 61 (7)"Snape's certainly clever and cunning enough to keep himself out of trouble" GoF ch 27 p (8)"bewitching the mind, ensnaring the sense" SS ch 8 p 137, also see OOP ch 18 p 383 (9)Confundus Charm, PoA ch 21 p 386 (10) Imperius Curse, GoF ch 14 p (11) "An odd, closed expression appeared on Lupin's face." PoA ch 14 p 288. Also '"Don't ask me to fathom the way a werewolf's mind works," hissed Snape' PoA ch 19 p 361 (12) "[...] I had led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally." PoA ch 18 p 355 (13) "roaming the school grounds and the village by night" PoA ch 18 p 355 (14)"make my transformations bearable" PoA ch 18 p 354 (15) "We were young, thoughtless --carried away with our own cleverness" PoA ch 18 p 355 "The risk would've been what made it fun for James." OOP ch 14 p 305 (16) PoA ch 18 p 355 (17) "The screams and howls the villagers used to hear were made by me." PoA ch 18 p 352. "[...]so I bit and scratched myself instead." PoA ch18 p 353 "[...] there were stains all over the floor; every piece of furniture was broken as though somebody had smashed it." PoA ch 17 p 337 (18) PoA ch 18 p 356 (19) Sirius's loyalty -- http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=6 1 From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 16:06:18 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:06:18 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129903 > Valky: > I would just like to interject to say that I agree with this statement > in as much as it says Sirius managed to definitely portray these > intentions. But I don't disregard that it is possible Sirius acted on > different intentions without properly realising the consequences. > He was after all young and troubled at the time and it is proven that > Sirius, even up to his death, behaved erraticly and rashly especially > when provoked. a_svirn: I'd say that the fact that he was "young and troubled" doesn't diminish the potential wickedness of his intentions in the least. Would he be more likely to contemplate murder if he were mature and happy? I don't think so somehow. As for not properly realising consequences it's ... well, let's say I just don't buy it. How dim should he has been not to know exactly what is more likely to happen if his classmate were to walk into a transformed werewolf? And we've been told that Sirius was an exceptionally bright student. > Valky: > In this context I think "tried" is too strong a word. a_svirn: I don't see why. I think it's a pretty neutral word in any context. Valky: >But I agree that > betrayal however rash and inadvertant is betrayal. a_svirn: It would be inadvertent if it were a mere slip of tongue. But it wouldn't be a betrayal then, would it? Valky: >I agree that Lupin > was not in on these goings on, and I believe that neither was James. > But they did forgive Sirius for what he'd done and remember that Lupin > trusted Sirius less later on. a_svirn: He didn't betray James, so he had nothing to forgive. As for Lupin, from what we've seen in the books his dependence of his friends' acceptance is his greatest weakness. It's actually not to his credit, that he forgave Sirius. From julierice8 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 15:16:34 2005 From: julierice8 at yahoo.com (Julie Rice) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050602151634.70334.qmail@web50503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129904 I've been reading this thread and a connection occurred to me. It comes from the Van Helsing movie from last summer. In that movie the only thing that could kill a vampire was a werewolf. There has been a lot of speculation that Snape is a vampire. Hence the connection. Lupin the werewolf would have been the only one who could have killed Snape the vampire. Any thoughts. Julie Ohio __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 16:32:13 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:32:13 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129905 > bboyminn: > > > I have to believe you can see the moral difference in these cases, and > further have to believe you can see the degree of shift in blame. In > no case is anyone blameless, but in the first two cases, a greater > share of the blame falls on Snape. > a_svirn: You mean that Snape deserved to be eaten or bitten by a werewolf because he was a slimy Slytherin busybody? From julierice8 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 16:26:44 2005 From: julierice8 at yahoo.com (Julie Rice) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry and Post traumatic stress disorder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050602162644.72591.qmail@web50501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129906 Julie wrote: > (Julie -- being brought to the keyboard by the use of > a mental health diagnosis). I find it interesting > that you have said Harry is PTSD. Aside from his > being subjected to life-threateningsituations and > seeing someone else killed, how do you see Harry > fitting the criteria? The information for PTSD comes from webmd.com I edited it for brevity and it's still too long. I'll put in any examples that I can think up off the top of my head. Please snip and cite any examples that you come up with. Common symptoms of PTSD include: * Recurring, intrusive, and distressing memories of the event. In PTSD, you continue to relive the traumatic event through painful memories, vivid dreams, or flashbacks. Reliving the event may cause intense fear, helplessness, and horror similar to what you felt at the time the event took place. This distress may cause physical symptoms of extreme anxiety or a panic attack. After Cedric dies and Harry is at the Dursleys', Dudley brings up the fact that Harry is dreaming of Cedric and his murder. Harry is unable to sleep well. * Avoiding situations that remind you of the event. * Becoming emotionally numb and withdrawing. * Difficulty sleeping and concentrating, and fearing for your personal safety. Any fear that Harry has of his own personal safety is probably justified as Voldemort does want to kill him. I don't think it's due to PTSD. Webmd.com also states that the closer you are to the event, and the stronger your reaction to it. Obviously Harry saw Cedric murdered and LV rise again, so his reaction would be a lot stronger than somebody just hearing about it or someone further away. PTSD can cause: * Difficulty sleeping. Already discussed * Outbursts of anger or irritability. Harry is extremely mad at his friends at 12 GP and seems mad through most of the book. * Difficulty concentrating. He is having a difficult time getting LV out of his head and LV uses this to his advantage. * Becoming overly startled when someone surprises you. * Feelings of intense guilt (especially if you survived when others died). Harry feels horrible that Cedric died. he blames himself for telling Cedric to grasp the cup with him. PTSD is increased if: * You were directly exposed to the traumatic event as a victim or a witness. This happened. * The event was significant or intense. No arguing there. * You had a severe reaction to the event such as shaking, crying uncontrollably, rapid heart rate, vomiting, or other similar physical and emotional responses. Harry clutched onto Cedric's body and wouldn't let go. * You suffered from childhood abuse or other traumatic experiences. Parents killed, raised by the Dursley's. Harry's emotional abuse has already been covered here. * You are a male. Males are affected by PTSD more often than females. While I don't believe Harry has every symptom, I believe he has many and his actions and reactions in OOTP seem fitting with the trauma he experienced. All asterik (*) marks are quotes from www.webmd.com. Another Julie Ohio From alishak at spu.edu Thu Jun 2 16:47:56 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:47:56 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129907 >Eggplant: > I think you are referring to the time when Harry finds out that > Ron has been made a prefect and he Harry has not. Harry thinks > (quite correctly) that he has done more and suffered more and > is more capable than Ron, or more than anyone for that matter; Alisha: Actually, I was just starting book 5 again last night when I came across the first incident of this feeling of entitlement. When Harry is moping about not getting all the information he'd like from his friends (even though, as they have repeatedly explained, it would be a security risk for them to tell him anything), he doesn't reason that he has as much right as Ron and Hermione to know what's going on. He thinks he has more. Again, I don't have my book with me, but there's a lot of "wasn't it him who..." thinking going on. /He's/ the one who did this.../he's/ faced more than either of them...Voldemort killed /his/ parents. This is the attitude in Harry that I, personally, resent. From alishak at spu.edu Thu Jun 2 17:02:28 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:02:28 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129908 > "niekycrins" wrote: > > > why would this room, containing a force that is needed > > to conquer VM, be closed and apparently protected? > > Why not "unleash" it on LV while he was in the DOM? > Eggplant: > I hope it's more than just love, otherwise the story could get so > sweet we'd all get diabetes. Love probably has something to do with > it but there must be something more than that because Dumbledore says > it is not only more wonderful than death it is more terrible too. Alisha: I don't think this necessarily means that it must be more than love. Have you ever been in love? Really truly in love? It's a terrible thing. Or how about this. Have you ever really loved someone and then lost them? It's the most terrible thing in the world. But if this type of loss wasn't associated with love, love itself wouldn't be so wonderful. The most wonderful things in the world are the ones we know are temporary. I think when DD says that love (if that's what he's talking about) is "at once more wonderful and terrible than death," he's thinking specifically about Tom Riddle. He has never loved or cared about anyone. Because of this, he will never have to experience the pain of losing someone (it's easier to die than to watch someone you love die), but he has also never experience the wonderful joy of loving someone and having them love you back. From bethg2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 17:18:02 2005 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (Beth) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:18:02 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129909 "pippin_999" wrote: > Why does Lupin seem unaffected by the dementor on the > train? He knows what is happening. The unknown is always scarier than something we know. He also knows what to do to stop it and does it. > What was Lupin doing for twelve years between GH and > Book Three? No idea, but isn't it possible he was caring for an ailing grandparent rather than plotting the resurrection of the dark lord? My guess is after losing everyone important to him he wanted to get away from the memories. I like the idea of him doing some sort of magical pest control. > Why is he afraid of Trelawney? Pick one: -If Trelawney kept hitting on you wouldn't you try to avoid her? (Where is dear Prof. Lupin..... Come up to my tower for a private reading... come on would you go up t oher tower for a private reading?) -Nobody knew about his relationship with Sirius and he was trying to keep it a secret. -She's annoying, he was trying to avoid her. Minerva and Severus don't like her either. > Is his boggart really a full moon or does the "silvery orb" > represent something else? It's a full moon, that was one of the clues that he was a werewolf and that particular mystery was wrapped up at the end of POA. > Why is Lupin absent on Christmas day in PoA when > it shouldn't be full moon yet? Plenty of non-evil explanations that carry as much water as the evil ones. He could be visiting relatives, he could have a hard time dealing with holidays without his friends, he was embarrased he still couldn't afford gifts for people. > Why did Snape think Lupin was in on the prank? If Snape won't separate Harry from James I doubt he would separate one marauder from the pack. > Why isn't Lupin in any of Harry's photos? I have always thougt most of Harry's photos came from Lupin. He took them, that's why he's not in them. After all it's not like any of Lily's friends have shown up. Hagrid got those pictures from someone. > Why wasn't Lupin at Harry's christening? Maybe he was on a mission. After all, only Sirius was there, no friends of Lily's, no Peter, no Dumbledore. His not being there is hardly any more suspicous than anyone else's abscense. > Why does Lupin's case say "Professor R. > J. Lupin" in peeling gold letters, if he's never had > paid work? Again, many possible explanations. -He worked as tutor for werewolf children who could not go to wizarding schools. -He is RJ Lupin Jr. the case was his father's. -He always wanted to teach so his friends gave him the case as gift many years ago. > When Lupin leapt between Harry and Malfoy at > the ministry battle, why didn't Malfoy curse him? We don't really know what happened then because Harry stopped paying attention. Beth From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Jun 2 17:22:32 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:22:32 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129910 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "madorganization" wrote: > > > Alisha: > Actually, I was just starting book 5 again last night when I came > across the first incident of this feeling of entitlement. When > Harry is moping about not getting all the information he'd like > from his friends (even though, as they have repeatedly explained, > it would be a security risk for them to tell him anything), he doesn't reason that he has as much right as Ron and Hermione to > know what's going on. He thinks he has more. Again, I don't have > my book with me, but there's a lot of "wasn't it him who..." > thinking going on. /He's/ the one who did this.../he's/ faced > more than either of them...Voldemort killed /his/ parents. This > is the attitude in Harry that I, personally, resent. But everything he is thinking there is true, madorganization! Harry DOES have more right to know what's going on than either Ron or Hermione do. There is nothing wrong with feeling entitled when you genuinely ARE entitled, which Harry most definitely is. If he did not think that way it would be silly and unrealistic, as well as untrue. Lupinlore From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 17:25:41 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:25:41 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129911 Potioncat: Sorry, I don't buy it. If Snape had known that a werewolf was in the tunnel and that it was dangerous to go there, AND he then used Sirius' information to go in: then yes, Snape had some share of the blame. However, he didn't know that. Alla: I am NOT so sure about that. Allow me to raise my earlier speculation about the fact that Snape was studying the question about werewolfes in the pensieve scene AND the fact that he assignes the same question for the essay AND the fact that dear Hermione, bless her heart, figures it out perfectly. Do you think it is unreasonable to assume that Snape indeed figured out that Remus is a werewolf before he went to the tunnel? Potioncat: Given the consquences that we've all worked out, it is telling that the adult Sirius doesn't have any remorse for the joke. Alla: It is telling to me too, but for a different reason - like maybe deep hatred which both those boys felt for each other was based on something very significant. Bboyminn: I have to believe you can see the moral difference in these cases, and further have to believe you can see the degree of shift in blame. In no case is anyone blameless, but in the first two cases, a greater share of the blame falls on Snape. a_svirn: You mean that Snape deserved to be eaten or bitten by a werewolf because he was a slimy Slytherin busybody? Alla: I am really hesitant to speak for Steve, but I think he meant that IF Snape went to the tunnel on his own and we have NO indication as far as I can remember that Sirius tied him up and dragged him to the Shack, THEN Snape was at least very stupid to do so. It does not mean that he deserved to be provoked to go there, but again as far as we know nobody forced him to. Am I being confusing? Sirius may as well have an intent to send Snape there, but if he was warned about danger beforehand, the story becomes a bit different. Just speculating here of course. Alla. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 17:46:16 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:46:16 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129913 > > Alla: > >IF > Snape went to the tunnel on his own and we have NO indication as far > as > I can remember that Sirius tied him up and dragged him to the Shack, > THEN Snape was at least very stupid to do so. > > It does not mean that he deserved to be provoked to go there, but > again > as far as we know nobody forced him to. Am I being confusing? a_svirn; Frankly, you are, at least to me. "Forced him to be provoked?" ? Hardly a feat anyone is capable of. And if Snape simply was on the prowl that night, and Sirius had nothing to do with it whatsoever, then there is nothing to it to discuss, is there? From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 17:49:59 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:49:59 -0000 Subject: MAGIC TUMBLE DRYER (was: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129914 Hello All, I think that the 7 Heavenly Virtues being represented in each of the 7 books are an excellent model for interpreting the HP saga. However, I think Maus has misidentified the Heavenly Virtue for Book 5 (see below.) It seems to me that OotP is not about Hope vs. Disillusionment but is about Prudence vs. rashness/stupidity. Read below and then I've written more after the quote. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mightymaus75" wrote: > Book 5: Hope (also associated with: desire, belief, reliance, expectation) > Vs. disillusionment > At the start of the book Harry is disillusioned by the lack of news in his friends' letters and the Daily Prophet. And Harry has to deal with more disillusionment when it turns out that Hogwarts is not save from the influences of the outside world, and when Dumbledore is suddenly a lot > less open and fatherly towards Harry. On top of this Harry also finds out that his role as the hero who neatly solves everything isn't always that simple. Harry then finally conquers his disillusionment and shows true hope when he thinks of being with Sirius as Voldemort possesses and tries to kill him in the MoM. > > Book 6: Prudence (also associated with wisdom, vigilance, carefulness, thoughtfulness, discretion) > Vs. rashness/stupidity > Be prepared for Harry to act rashly and stupidly for a large part of HBP, only to redeem himself at the very end of the book where he will show true prudence, presumably while fighting with Voldemort. > In OotP: Harry rashly pokes his nose into Snape's penseive and thus gets thrown out of Occlumency lessons. He is intemperate and thoughtless with his friends by snapping at them and forgetting that Ginny, too, had been possessed by Voldy. He is intolerant of DD's emotional withdrawl. Mad-Eye Moody's quote in the beginning of the book is "Eternal Vigilance!" and thus a reference back to the Virtue described. Harry rashly zooms off to the MoM when he thinks Sirius is being held and crucio'ed by Voldy instead of trying to find out more than Kreacher's word or using the mirrors (stupid, stupid Harry!). Etc. (I'm sure there are many more examples, but I'm reading GoF right now. Fellow seekers: please fill in examples here.) This leaves the virtues of Hope and Love for the last two books. I'll bet that HBP is hope, and that Harry is depressed and hopeless thoughout it. Thus, this is what JKR said that we won't like. TK -- TigerPatronus > Come to the KITTENS & RAINBOWS website: > http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html I will indeed! --TK From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 17:52:10 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:52:10 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129915 Alla: IF Snape went to the tunnel on his own and we have NO indication as far as I can remember that Sirius tied him up and dragged him to the Shack, THEN Snape was at least very stupid to do so. It does not mean that he deserved to be provoked to go there, but again as far as we know nobody forced him to. Am I being confusing? > a_svirn; > > Frankly, you are, at least to me. "Forced him to be provoked?" ? > Hardly a feat anyone is capable of. And if Snape simply was on the > prowl that night, and Sirius had nothing to do with it whatsoever, > then there is nothing to it to discuss, is there? Alla: Apologies then. Allow me to clarify. I have not said "forced him to be provoked". I said that Snape did not deserve to BE provoked, but as far as we know nobody forced him to go into the Shack. I agree though if to you everything is clear what occurred that night, then there is not much to discuss. To me the story is full with holes and blanks. We will just have to wait and see, I guess. JMO, Alla. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 17:58:52 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:58:52 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129916 > > Alla: > I said that Snape did not deserve to BE provoked, but as > far as we know nobody forced him to go into the Shack. > a_svirn: And who says that he was "forced" to go there? Not even Snape clamed that. From lhuntley at fandm.edu Thu Jun 2 18:19:18 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:19:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129917 Steve (bboymn): >> I have to believe you can see the moral difference in these cases, >> and >> further have to believe you can see the degree of shift in blame. In >> no case is anyone blameless, but in the first two cases, a greater >> share of the blame falls on Snape. >> A_svirn: > You mean that Snape deserved to be eaten or bitten by a werewolf > because he was a slimy Slytherin busybody? Play nice. If you had read and/or understood Steve's post (and his previous one), you would know that this is not even *remotely* the gist of his argument. It is a canonical fact that the antagonism between Snape and the Marauders (particularly Sirius and James) was *mutual*. Furthermore, I think it's giving Sevvie too little credit to assume that he was some completely innocent, passive victim in the Prank events. That said, Sirius WAS wrong. He was way more wrong than Snape may or may not have been, and, as far as I'm concerned, the vast majority of the blame falls on his shoulders. Laura http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 18:23:40 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:23:40 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129918 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Bboyminn: > > I have to believe you can see the moral difference in these cases, > and further have to believe you can see the degree of shift in > blame. In no case is anyone blameless, but in the first two cases, > a greater share of the blame falls on Snape. > a_svirn: > You mean that Snape deserved to be eaten or bitten by a werewolf > because he was a slimy Slytherin busybody? > Alla: > > I am really hesitant to speak for Steve, but I think he meant that > IF Snape went to the tunnel on his own and we have NO indication as > far as I can remember that Sirius tied him up and dragged him to the > Shack, THEN Snape was at least very stupid to do so. > > It does not mean that he deserved to be provoked to go there, but > again as far as we know nobody forced him to. Am I being confusing? > Sirius may as well have an intent to send Snape there, but if he was > warned about danger beforehand, the story becomes a bit different. > > Just speculating here of course. > > Alla. bboyminn: Thank you, Alla, you are absolutely right. First, in none of my scenarios or in my posts have I ever said that Sirius bore NO responsibility, because he does. But Snape made a choice, he made a choice to override a security measure that was obviously put in place for his protection; the Whomping Willow. Further, you can't convince me that Snape didn't logically conclude that the Headmaster did not want students going near that tree or tunnel, and most certainly did not want students entering the tunnel. Snape made a conscious choice to put himself in harms way and to go against the rules put in place to protect him. Snape bares some responsibility. As Alla pointed out, Sirius did not tie Snape up and throw him into a dean of werewolfs. Snape went of his own free will. I realized that my scenario titles were messed up a bit, 'Reverse Psychology' and 'I told you so' are the same one; it's 'Reverse Psychology' and 'Eavesdropping'. In those cases Sirius simply made somewhat neurtal information available and Snape made a choice to use it. In the 'Lily Ploy', Sirius is much more cold and claculated in his actions. In the first two, he uses truth to entice Snape, but in the third, he really tricks Snape into going by giving him false information specifically and directly intended to cause Snape to enter the tunnel. That's measurably closer to tying him up and throwing him to the wolves than the first two. In the third case, Snape still makes his own choice to go. He still does something that any reasonable person would conclude has an element of danger, and he still knows he is acting against the Headmaster. So, in all cases, there is blame for both, but the balances of that blame shifts depending on the circumstances, and that is the very point I am trying to make. We don't know what happened, though we can fairly conclude that Sirius's actions were wrong, we have only Snape's word that they constituded anything close to intended /murder/. And once again, in no case is Snape without guilt of his own. Snape made a conscious choice to do something that is both wrong and logically dangerous. He chose to put himself in harms way. Let me conclude by re-enforcing the point that no matter how much guilt may belong to Snape, it doesn't absolve Sirius's action. Also, Sirius's continued bad attitude toward the incident is easy enough to understand since it is long after the fact, and Snape was never truly harm; well, his ego might have been harmed, but he wasn't physically hurt. In simpliest terms, there is a difference between throwing someone into a dean of wolves, and simply telling him where the dean is. That's all I'm trying to say. Steve/bboyminn From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 18:26:23 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:26:23 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129919 > > Ginger (previously) thinks Lupin is a huggybunny. > > Pippin: > Huggybunny my foot. But since Jen asked for explanations > other than EverSoEvil!Lupin, I'll just point out that > Sirius's suspicion of his old friend isn't the only thing > besides legilimency/occlumency that needs explaining. > In no particular order: Ginger interrupts: Actually, Pippin, the "huggybunny" term was coined in association with Lupin in an offlist e-mail. Allow me to quote myself: I love Lupin and I think he is the huggiest bunny in the bunch and wouldn't hurt a fly. I also think that ESE!Lupin is the most amazing reading of canon I have seen for proving something that I will never believe. Pippin has almost had me yelling "I see the light!" on more than one occasion. Then I return to my senses. end quote. So, that said, I will make a feeble attempt to answer your questions: Q:> Why does Lupin seem unaffected by the dementor on the > train? A: He had chocolate, and he knew how to use it. Q:> What was Lupin doing for twelve years between GH and > Book Three? A: Transforming into a werewolf, filling out job applications, darning his robes... Q:> Why is he afraid of Trelawney? A: I didn't read it as being afraid of her specificly, only (in her perspective) fleeing when she offered to crystal gaze for him. I think she was implying a *private* reading. Up close and personal. Two options here. 1) She is for real and would find out that he was aware of Black's animagus status. 2) She is a fraud and would find something that would require further and more intimate readings. As others have said, it is a smart bachelor who flees the reading of his private crystals. Q:> What's so funny about a cockroach? A: Maybe he has a funny memory of cockroach clusters. (Don't ask me to fathom the mind of a werewolf) Q:> Is his boggart really a full moon or does the "silvery orb" > represent something else? A: He did say in the Shack that it was the moon. And of course we can trust everything he says. Q:> Why is Lupin absent on Christmas day in PoA when > it shouldn't be full moon yet? A: He was suffering from PMS (pre-moon-syndrome) Q:> How predictable is the period of transformation? > If it's not predictable, how could the prank work? A: Hmm, this sounds like a question for the ESE!Sirius gang. After all, Lupin was an innocent bystander. I would think that seeing as he only kept his mind under the influence of Wolfsbane (a recent development), that during the Shack days he would not have been in a mode to take notes. Hard without opposable thumbs and a lucid mind. Q:> Why did Snape think Lupin was in on the prank? A: Well, coming from a guy who thought Harry should be banned from Quidditch just because he was there when Mrs Norris was found, I'd say "guilt by association" is in keeping with Snape's character. Q:> Why isn't Lupin in any of Harry's photos? A: He's camera-shy? (I also liked the suggestion that he was the one taking them) Q:> Why wasn't Lupin at Harry's christening? A: JKR took the fun out of this one-it was a rushed affair, per her website. Q:> What is Lupin doing for the Order? A: Keeping Sirius out of trouble. Probably reaching out to other werewolves. Fetching Harry. Probably doing a lot of fetching. Lupine, canine, same general idea. Good for fetching. Q:> Why does Lupin's case say "Professor R. > J. Lupin" in peeling gold letters, if he's never had > paid work? A: The man's an optomist. Although it could have belonged to his twin, Romulus Jack. (who went to school elsewhere) Q:> When Lupin leapt between Harry and Malfoy at > the ministry battle, why didn't Malfoy curse him? A: Let's see. Harry had just "blasted Malfoy off his back", and Lupin jumped in before Malfoy "could draw breath to strike". I'd say Harry had knocked the wind out of Malfoy. Harry and Neville turn and run after this. Lupin may have had Malfoy at wand-point. Shades of "go ahead, make my day". As you can tell, I'm pulling most of this out of thin air. Whatever it takes to keep you going on the topic. Looking forward to your future posts on the subject. Ginger, digging out the old SLURP badge. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 18:51:25 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:51:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > > > Bboyminn: > > > > I have to believe you can see the moral difference in these cases, > > and further have to believe you can see the degree of shift in > > blame. In no case is anyone blameless, but in the first two cases, > > a greater share of the blame falls on Snape. > > > > a_svirn: > > You mean that Snape deserved to be eaten or bitten by a werewolf > > because he was a slimy Slytherin busybody? > > > > Alla: > > > > I am really hesitant to speak for Steve, but I think he meant that > > IF Snape went to the tunnel on his own and we have NO indication as > > far as I can remember that Sirius tied him up and dragged him to the > > Shack, THEN Snape was at least very stupid to do so. > > > > It does not mean that he deserved to be provoked to go there, but > > again as far as we know nobody forced him to. Am I being confusing? > > Sirius may as well have an intent to send Snape there, but if he was > > warned about danger beforehand, the story becomes a bit different. > > > > Just speculating here of course. > > > > Alla. > > bboyminn: > > Thank you, Alla, you are absolutely right. > > First, in none of my scenarios or in my posts have I ever said that > Sirius bore NO responsibility, because he does. But Snape made a > choice, he made a choice to override a security measure that was > obviously put in place for his protection; the Whomping Willow. > Further, you can't convince me that Snape didn't logically conclude > that the Headmaster did not want students going near that tree or > tunnel, and most certainly did not want students entering the tunnel. > Snape made a conscious choice to put himself in harms way and to go > against the rules put in place to protect him. Snape bares some > responsibility. > > As Alla pointed out, Sirius did not tie Snape up and throw him into a > dean of werewolfs. Snape went of his own free will. > > I realized that my scenario titles were messed up a bit, 'Reverse > Psychology' and 'I told you so' are the same one; it's 'Reverse > Psychology' and 'Eavesdropping'. In those cases Sirius simply made > somewhat neurtal information available and Snape made a choice to use it. > > In the 'Lily Ploy', Sirius is much more cold and claculated in his > actions. In the first two, he uses truth to entice Snape, but in the > third, he really tricks Snape into going by giving him false > information specifically and directly intended to cause Snape to enter > the tunnel. That's measurably closer to tying him up and throwing him > to the wolves than the first two. > > In the third case, Snape still makes his own choice to go. He still > does something that any reasonable person would conclude has an > element of danger, and he still knows he is acting against the Headmaster. > > So, in all cases, there is blame for both, but the balances of that > blame shifts depending on the circumstances, and that is the very > point I am trying to make. We don't know what happened, though we can > fairly conclude that Sirius's actions were wrong, we have only Snape's > word that they constituded anything close to intended /murder/. And > once again, in no case is Snape without guilt of his own. > > Snape made a conscious choice to do something that is both wrong and > logically dangerous. He chose to put himself in harms way. Let me > conclude by re-enforcing the point that no matter how much guilt may > belong to Snape, it doesn't absolve Sirius's action. > > Also, Sirius's continued bad attitude toward the incident is easy > enough to understand since it is long after the fact, and Snape was > never truly harm; well, his ego might have been harmed, but he wasn't > physically hurt. > > In simpliest terms, there is a difference between throwing someone > into a dean of wolves, and simply telling him where the dean is. > > That's all I'm trying to say. > > Steve/bboyminn There is a difference between "not without guilt" and "greater share of guilt". You say that Snape is to blame because he acted on his own free will, according to his own choices, based on the information he'd got and breaking school rules and security measures in the process. But that's exactly what Harry Potter has been doing since his year one. Would you say that he bears "the greater share of guilt" that Voldermort for his near brushes with death? I suspect you would not, but where is the difference? The way I see it the only difference is that Harry is nice and good, while Snape is a horrid slimeball. a_svirn From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 19:02:59 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:02:59 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "niekycrins" wrote: > I hope it's more than just love, otherwise the story could get so > sweet we'd all get diabetes. Love probably has something to do with it but there must be something more than that because Dumbledore says it is not only more wonderful than death it is more terrible too. Tonks: "There is no good or evil, only power and those too afraid to use it." This is what LV believes. That is what Tom Riddle believes. We can understand, given his history, how Tom could come to that idea. I think that we can all identify with Tom in his struggles as well as with Harry in his. Haven't we all at one time or another felt the type of anger that is rage? Yet most of us, like Harry, have not acted on that to the extent that we have killed someone. But Tom has. Tom has let his rage born of his fear of death and his fear of Love control his life. And see what it has made of him. To some extent Tom is right. We don't usually look for words of wisdom from the evil guy, but there is a hint of truth in what he says. He has chosen the wrong and weaker *power*. There is a greater power and Tom has been too afraid to use it. How did Tom become LV? I have a theory about that, and here goes. There is an ancient magic, this much we know. In this ancient magic before time and space there were 2 forces. One is the force of pure Love in its highest form. This is the type of love that C.S. Lewis refers to as Agape Love. In this ancient magic there was also another type of force, one that was weaker. The weaker force appears to be stronger because it is fueled by strong and dangerous emotions of fear and hate. The stronger force is Love which appears weaker because it is gentle and kind. Within the force of Love is something else that is not show to the world often, but is the part of Love that give it power "at once more wonderful and more terrible than death ". And this part of Love is self sacrifice and forgiveness. There is a saying, I think a quote by one of the Saints, and it goes like this. "Love and do as you will." This implies something of the "there is no good or evil only power" idea. The idea is that if you truly Love with a capital L, then you will not do anything to harm another living thing. This type of Love is what is in the room in the MoM. Back to the second power, the weaker one. I know there are many different spiritual believes in the members of this group, but lets use the term *Devil* for a moment just to make the point easier to illustrate. Let's say there is such an entity as the *Devil* and the second type of power is his. How would this play out in the life of Tom Riddle? Given his background it is possible to see Tom as a teenager who was both afraid of death and of love. One of the weapons the Devil has is *fear*. It is his most powerful weapon and he uses it well. He uses it as he whispers in the mind of Tom and later through Tom to Harry. Hate is also a weapon that the Devil uses. These two, fear and hate, combined can work within anyone and does work within Tom Riddle to make him into something that is the embodiment of the second power and the opposite of Love. Remember when Lupin (or was it DD?) tells Harry that it is good that he is only afraid of *fear* itself? That is another way of saying that there is nothing that can separate us from Love, not even death. There is nothing to fear, but the idea of fear. I am not saying this well, but it mean that the only thing to fear is allowing the feeling of fear to come upon us. As long as we do not fear we can do anything. As long as we do not fear, the Dark Lord (by whatever name you know him) can not harm us. Those who practice real magick have a saying that in order to perform a spell and make it work you must have "faith without fear". That concept is what is at work here as well. The bottom line of what I am saying here is that it is Love that is the great and powerful weapon in the DoM. It is not the syrupy sweet love that Eggplant fears it will be. It is a strong, powerful, dangerous and wonderful Love with a capital L. (Of course, you all know by now what *Who* I think that really is. And you also know that I think that this is the message the author has in mind when writing her books.) Tonks_op From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 19:31:23 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:31:23 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129922 Pippin wrote: > I must beg the list's indulgence for starting with > the prank. Putting Lupin's history in chronological > order makes it easier to understand, but it also > puts the most speculative area of the theory > first. There is more than one clue to show that > Lupin could have been Voldemort's spy and his > second-in-command, that he could have sent the > Lestranges to attack the Longbottoms, aided > Quirrell and Lucius with their plotting, arranged > for Peter Pettigrew's escape, helped to murder > Cedric, and killed off Sirius Black. > > But for this bit, what I mostly have to go on is > Snape's claim that Lupin was in on it (1) -- "it" > being the "highly amusing joke" that would have > resulted in Snape's death(2). Since Snape doesn't > give any evidence for his belief, it seems merely > another symptom of his irrational hate -- except > that if Lupin did indeed plot to kill him, Snape's > hatred isn't irrational at all! > > The beginning and end of the story are maddeningly > incomplete. How did Sirius find out what Snape had > seen? How did James learn what Sirius did? What > happened afterward? Was anyone punished? But the > biggest gap comes right in the middle. As befits > the theme of Book Three, it has to do with > *timing*. The joke will be pointless if Snape > enters the willow when Lupin is not there or finds > him before he transforms. > > > Canon places much stress on the ways in which one > wizard may induce another to take a rash or foolish > action: potions that bewitch the mind and ensnare > the senses (8), the confundus charm (9), the > dreaded Imperius curse (10). Sirius could have used > one of these to make sure that his "joke" was > effective, but it seems most unlike Sirius to have > done so. I can believe that Sirius would assault > Snape and try to murder him outright -- but I can't > see him setting a trap, not all on his own, anyway. > In all the time Sirius was after Pettigrew, that > is one tactic he doesn't seem to have tried. > > Could Snape have been bewitched by someone else? If > he suspected this, would he have overstated his > case as usual, shrilly accusing James and all his > friends of a deliberate plot against him? > Neri: First, congratulations for finally coming with the full theory! Regarding the Prank part, I'm not sure what is the scenario that you are suggesting. I find it difficult to conceive even a single reasonable scenario in which Remus but *not* Sirius is guilty of a murder attempt. First of all the "timing" issue. Madam Pomfrey would only lock Remus in the Shack immediately before the time due to the transformation (no sense to lock the poor kid in there when he's not transformed). So Severus sees Pomfrey taking Remus in and becomes curious, Sirius tells him how to get in, Severus (assuming he has some brain left) waits until Madam Pomfrey is out (and perhaps also until it's completely dark, so no one will see him), and then he goes in and of course meets Remus already transformed. I don't see any issue that needs to be explained with this timing. Secondly, how could Remus make Severus go into the Willow? You suggested potions that "bewitch the mind and ensnare the senses", the confundus charm or Imperius. Assuming 16 yrs old Remus knew how to use any of these, and he wanted to get rid of the nosy Severus for good, why not simply order him to step off the astronomy tower or into the lake or something? Why did he have to involve both his transformed self and the innocent Sirius at all? To quote 12 yrs old Ron, have you ever heard of a plan that is more likely to go wrong? Neri From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 19:58:39 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:58:39 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129923 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Yes! More! More! I like this interp of The Prank. On this reading of the series (leading up to HBP), I had begun to wonder if The Prank and James's saving of Snape's life were the same thing, but I think they are. Your interp of The Prank makes sense. TK -- TigerPatronus From drliss at comcast.net Thu Jun 2 20:27:37 2005 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 20:27:37 +0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? Message-ID: <060220052027.8762.429F6BB80005266D0000223A22070206539C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129924 It's Lupin. I'm so here. I think all of these questions have answers. Some we do know or can figure out pretty quick, and some (like the 12 years) I suspect we'll get more answers, but there's plenty of plausible non-ESE answers out there. > Why does Lupin seem unaffected by the dementor on the > train? A: I agree that he knew what was happening. Plus, Lupin lives with many of his worst memories and was expecting it. And the man is as in control of his emotions as you get. Q:> What was Lupin doing for twelve years between GH and > Book Three? Good question, but I love the theory he was traveling a lot. Q:> Why is he afraid of Trelawney? A: Maybe he was afraid she'd see something about Sirius, but I also go with the people who said that "want a private reading" coming from a lady who looks like a bug is enough to get any sensible bachelor to tuck his tail between his legs and run. Q:> What's so funny about a cockroach? A: Lupin has the sense of humor of a 12 year old boy. He thought dressing Snape up in Neville's grandmother's clothes was hysterical. Why shouldn't he find a cockroach funny? Q:> Is his boggart really a full moon or does the "silvery orb" > represent something else? A: It's the moon. He says it is, and that makes complete sense and fit with the plot of the book. Q:> Why is Lupin absent on Christmas day in PoA when > it shouldn't be full moon yet? Honestly? Because JKR is bad at maths and didn't consult a moon chart like we nutcases (myself loudly included) are prone to do. It was convenient for her to have the full moon on Christmas, so she made the full moon on Christmas. I mean, if you were writing PoA (which she probably started before the HP phenomenon was so huge), would YOU think that your fans would check to see that you got the full moon on the right date, especially when you didn't really give years? Q:> Why did Snape think Lupin was in on the prank? A: Why shouldn't he? How often did Sirius act not in tandem with James, Peter, or Remus? Q:> Why isn't Lupin in any of Harry's photos? A: He was taking them, and also Hagrid asked for pictures of Harry's parents. I'll bet there's pictures around of Lupin with Harry, or even with James, but Remus didn't send them because either he didn't want to part with them or he understood what Hagrid was doing and didn't think they were appropriate. After all, Sirius is only in one. Q:> Why wasn't Lupin at Harry's christening? A: Well, notice that Peter and Dumbledore aren't there, either. My theory is that the three of them decided that their presence attracted too much attention, and it was better if only the Potters and Sirius were there. Safer that way. Q:> What is Lupin doing for the Order? A: Spying. He's a double agent for Dumbledore. Q:> Why does Lupin's case say "Professor R. > J. Lupin" in peeling gold letters, if he's never had > paid work? A: Because it was a convenient way to get Hermione to know who he was immediately. But if you want something a little more interesting, I like the theory it was a gift from his friends. Q:> When Lupin leapt between Harry and Malfoy at > the ministry battle, why didn't Malfoy curse him? A: Well, we don't know he DIDN'T. We just know Lupin was still standing at the end of the battle. Harry's attention was turned away at that point. Also, Lucius strikes me as something of a coward. He might have had a very easy time attacking a 15 year old boy, but hesitated a bit at the sight of a full-grown wizard. Lissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 21:10:56 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050602211056.99444.qmail@web32710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129925 Alisha wrote: Actually, I was just starting book 5 again last night when I came across the first incident of this feeling of entitlement. When Harry is moping about not getting all the information he'd like from his friends (even though, as they have repeatedly explained, it would be a security risk for them to tell him anything), he doesn't reason that he has as much right as Ron and Hermione to know what's going on. He thinks he has more. Again, I don't have my book with me, but there's a lot of "wasn't it him who..." thinking going on. /He's/ the one who did this.../he's/ faced more than either of them...Voldemort killed /his/ parents. This is the attitude in Harry that I, personally, resent. Lynn: I'm curious to know why people feel Harry shouldn't feel entitled to know the information. After all, it directly affects him. He's the one Voldemort is after, who Voldemort wants dead. Yea, he's entitled to the information much more than Ron or Hermione. Harry should have been told earlier why he had to go to the Dursleys, why Dumbledore wouldn't even look at him, why he was being watched in secret and my personal favorite, why Hermione was brought into the loop before Harry. I can understand Ron as he was with his Mom and Dad and I think Harry would understand that as well. But Hermione? Why Hermione? More than likely it was for her safety but Harry wouldn't know that, no one is telling him anything. And, if Hermione is being brought in for her safety, why is he being left hanging out there? Dementors were sent after him! It was only a month before that Voldemort tried to murder him! He doesn't know that being with the Dursleys is the safest place for him. At this point it must have felt to Harry that he was the only one being kept in the dark, which he was. On top of that, he saves Duddy Dear's life and gets solitary confinement for it. That can really do damage to someone who is already dealing with feelings he isn't equipped to handle. I sure wouldn't have been able to get over what Harry went through that quickly with help, never mind in a hostile environment. The impression I'm getting is that people feel that Harry should have already gotten over it, should be acting as if he hasn't gone through anything, that all the trauma he experienced in GOF should have all gone away and Harry should just accept whatever happens like a good little boy. Forget it! As I've said before, Harry is expected to act like an adult but continues to be treated as a child. He has been through more that most in the wizarding world and faced the danger as a man and yet, feels as if he is being treated as a child who can't handle the truth of the situation, which is what is happening. And yet, in his view, others who haven't done as much or been through those same fights, are told things while he's kept in the dark. It doesn't make sense to him and he doesn't understand it. Harry's initial outpouring of anger is natural and justified. Once Harry gets his feelings about the situation out of him, he doesn't ask the questions and accepts that he can't know. And yet, Sirius calls him on being that good little boy. Why isn't Harry asking the questions. What happens? Harry hears again that it's Dumbledore that doesn't want Harry to know, people he trusts who are keeping the truth from him. We recently had a situation on our PTA Board where someone on the Nominating Committee was asked about a position and the committee member refused to answer due to confidentiality. So the 30+ yo person asking the question blew up because she felt her "friend" was being disloyal by not answering the question. Now, if this adult can feel this way over a PTA position, why shouldn't a teenager who justifiably feels that the information is a matter of life or death for him? I wonder if all those who resent Harry's attitude have ever gotten angry when their government did something they didn't like or approve of, particularly if it ended up affecting them directly. For example, the last time government raised taxes to pay for even more programs that aren't working? How about laws that take away someone's right to privacy? Wouldn't we feel violated to know someone is secretly spying on us? And yet, Harry can't feel angry that this is happening to him without being told why? What about in our jobs? Those of us who have had major changes in our job situation sprung on us which adversely affect us know how Harry is feeling. Yea, maybe the bosses did it in the best interests of whatever but it would have been nice to know they were planning to screw up lives so those lives could be planned better. What about when a partner in a relationship makes a decision that affects the family without talking it over with the other partner? Without explaining it to the kids? Should we just say, oh, that's okay, you know what's best for us. I don't think so. And I don't think any intelligent, mature adult would. So why should Harry? Inquiring minds and all that. test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mysticowl at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 21:12:28 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:12:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MAGIC TUMBLE DRYER (was: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129926 Mightymaus75 wrote: Book 7: Charity/Love (also associated with: generosity, benevolence, helpfulness, mercy) Vs. selfishness/hate. Be prepared for Harry to act selfish for a large part of the book, only to redeem himself at the very end of the book where he will show true charity by either being merciful towards Voldemort or by sacrificing himself for the good of the wizarding world. I personally think though that JKR might go with the original meaning of the word: love. In which case, be prepared for Harry to be filled with hate for a large part of the book, only to redeem himself at the very end of the book where he will show true love. As it says in the New Testament: Me: I had a brief discussing last year in class about charity vs love and the meaning of caritas when we were discussing the Prioress in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. And as I understand it, Love as Amore means romantic/sexual love while Charity/Caritas is love for humankind. I think then that caritas IS the appropriate theme for book 7, not amore, because so far the books haven't been romantice books (they have romance, but only so far as it develops character) and caritas is a better contrast to Voldy and the DE's hatred of the halfbloods and muggleborns. Alina. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 2 21:17:12 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 21:17:12 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129927 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "madorganization" wrote: > Alisha: > Actually, I was just starting book 5 again last night when I came > across the first incident of this feeling of entitlement. When > Harry is moping about not getting all the information he'd like > from his friends (even though, as they have repeatedly explained, > it would be a security risk for them to tell him anything), he doesn't reason that he has as much right as Ron and Hermione to > know what's going on. He thinks he has more. Again, I don't have > my book with me, but there's a lot of "wasn't it him who..." > thinking going on. /He's/ the one who did this.../he's/ faced > more than either of them...Voldemort killed /his/ parents. This > is the attitude in Harry that I, personally, resent. The same here. I can imagine him feeling this way, but that does not mean I have to like it, or condone it. He is right to want answers, but his - I am HARRY POTTER attitude - deserves a kick in the butt. What I also did not like in him in OoP is his refusal to use his brains. From the other books, I never got the feeling he was stupid. Lazy, yes. But never stupid. But with the occlumency, where someone HAS given him all the anwers, he still follows what he wants, instead of using his brains. Now there have been suggestions that LV is messing with his emotions. But I am not convinced this is true. LV gives him the dreams, and messes with his emotions in the dreams. But Harry does a very good job on his own in fooling himself that what he wants to have is the right thing. I like the Harry who is teaching the DA though. Gerry From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu Jun 2 21:20:58 2005 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 21:20:58 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129928 Steve/bboyminn: > > So, in all cases, there is blame for both, but the balances of that > > blame shifts depending on the circumstances, and that is the very > > point I am trying to make. We don't know what happened, though we > can > > fairly conclude that Sirius's actions were wrong, we have only > Snape's > > word that they constituded anything close to intended /murder/. Eloise: We live in a culture which seems to have a strong need to asssign *blame* rather than think about responsibility. Whether Sirius intended *murder*, it is without doubt that whatever he did to tempt Snape into the tunnel was at the very least foolhardy. In fact Lupin is the one who has the most reason to be angry about the situation. What ever Sirius did it was a betrayal of a close friend who at the least would have had to leave the school had he bitten Snape, probably suffering a penalty far worse. I am the mother of a teenage boy. I know that teenage boys make stupid decisions and often don't think through the consequences of their actions, but that doesn't make them less culpable when they are caught. Sirius' desired to get back at Snape led him to do something that could have disasterously affected two classmates' lives, possibly even robbing both of them of their lives. I'm clear where the prime responsibility lies (as you admit below). Steve/bboyminn: And > > once again, in no case is Snape without guilt of his own. > > > > Snape made a conscious choice to do something that is both wrong > and > > logically dangerous. He chose to put himself in harms way. Eloise: I don't think we actually have any evidence that Snape knew that what he was doing was going to put his own life in danger. Yes, he was breaking rules, just as Draco did to spy on Harry et al at Hagrid's hut. Draco was punished; I've no doubt that Snape was also. But the guilt is in respect of something relatively minor, namely spying on a classmate. Sirius knew exactly what he was doing in tempting him to follow a werewolf into an enclosed environment. Steve/bboyminn: Let me > > conclude by re-enforcing the point that no matter how much guilt > may > > belong to Snape, it doesn't absolve Sirius's action. Eloise: No, it doesn't. What he did was utterly wrong, yet he shows no regret, not even an acknowledgement that it was wrong, just childishly tries to justify it like my kids might: "Don't hit your sister." "But she was annoying me." Steve/bboyminn: > > Also, Sirius's continued bad attitude toward the incident is easy > > enough to understand since it is long after the fact, and Snape was > > never truly harm; well, his ego might have been harmed, but he > wasn't > > physically hurt. Eloise: No thanks to Sirius. And his ego was harmed, I would argue, more by James' rescue than by Sirius' trick. Sirius' bad attitude seems to stem more from his continued animosity towards someone he had a pre- existing grudge towards. And as you admit it is *long* after the incident. So if Snape was supposed to have got over being fed to a werewolf, why shouldn't Sirius get over Snape having spied on MWWP? Let me draw an analogy. You're in a car, driving someone else and decide to show off. You crash. The passenger is nearly killed. It leaves him with a grudge. You're entitled to have an attitude towards that person for having that grudge simply because they came to no serious physical harm? I think not. And in this case, the "Prank" was designed with malice aforethought, even if Sirius hadn't thought the implications through completely. Steve/bboyminn: > > > > In simpliest terms, there is a difference between throwing someone > > into a dean of wolves, and simply telling him where the dean is. > > > > That's all I'm trying to say. Eloise: If you *know* that the person will enter the den, then morally, there's no difference at all, IMHO. a_svirn: > > There is a difference between "not without guilt" and "greater share > of guilt". You say that Snape is to blame because he acted on his > own free will, according to his own choices, based on the > information he'd got and breaking school rules and security measures > in the process. But that's exactly what Harry Potter has been doing > since his year one. Would you say that he bears "the greater share > of guilt" that Voldermort for his near brushes with death? I suspect > you would not, but where is the difference? The way I see it the > only difference is that Harry is nice and good, while Snape is a > horrid slimeball. Eloise: I wouldn't put it quite like that ;-) There is a difference in that Harry's life-endangering rule breaking has normally been in pursuit of a higher aim (rescuing the Philosopher's Stone, rescuing Ginny). But yes, Snape's rule breaking is of a different order from deliberately ensnaring a fellow student into a life-threatening situation. ~Eloise From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Thu Jun 2 22:44:58 2005 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:44:58 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: [snip] > I have never understood the idea that McGonagall respects Snape > (beyond the demands of her profession) or regards him with anything > other than disdain. The idea that she would be friends with someone > who abuses the members of her own house is utterly ludicrous. Demetra: I guess I'm one of those people who read it differently. I'm certainly not trying to change your mind or give the impression that I think my reading is "right" and yours is "wrong". I just want to lay out my reasons, for what they're worth. I don't think that McG is able to hide her disdain of people she considers to be poor teachers very well. It seems to me that she has little regard for teachers who are full of crap regarding their subject - ie Trelawney, Lockhart. I cannot recall any instance where McG speaks to Snape, or about Snape, in the same manner in which she speaks about these two. Keep in mind, too, she makes disparaging remarks about Trelawney to a class of students! If she has disdain for Snape, I think we would have been treated to at least one of her trademark sarcastic comments about him. As for the end of OOTP, when McG returns from St Mungo's, I read it that Snape is genuinely happy to see her back - hence the exclamation points when he says "Professor McGonagall!" "Back from St. Mungo's I see!" Note that there is no mention of Snape sneering or smirking when he says this, not even a mention of him saying it in a silky voice - one of which is usually mentioned when he is in full snark- mode. And I think McG's business like response was more to remind Snape that Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle were still there, and he couldn't be seen acting all happy to see her back. Now to go off on a tangent, I found your last statement interesting. Now, I'm going to preface this with a statement that I really like McG overall as a character. She often cracks me up - "tripe, Sybill" for example. But much as I love her, I contend that her mistreatment of Neville, while less frequent, is as abhorrent as Snape's. Here's some canon: GoF, page 236 McG says in front of the whole class "Longbottom, kindly do not reveal that you can't even perform a simple Switching Spell in front of anyone from Durmstrang!" Rather humiliating for Neville, no? And why the concern about Durmstrang finding this out? hmmm... PoA, Ch 13, p 268 (after McG found out Neville had written down the passwords to Gryffindor tower and left it lying around) "Neville was in total disgrace. Professor McGonagall was so furious, she had him banned from all future Hogsmeade visits, given him a detention and forbidden anyone to give him the password..." "Poor Neville was forced to wait outside the common room every night for someone to let him in, while the security trolls leered unpleasantly at him." (after McG sent a letter to Gran telling her what happened, Neville got a howler from Gran) "shreiking about how he had brought shame on the whole family." If we never found out it was Crookshanks who gave the password list to Sirius and that Neville was not to blame, I suppose we could assume that she was just genuinely upset about the circumstances. But, we know better. Yet, we never see her apologize to Neville. Never a statement to the rest of the Gryffindors admitting that Neville wasn't to blame, and perhaps she overreacted. And did she ever set Gran straight? I personally think that this humiliation from McG, who is supposed to be the parent away from home is worse than Snape's. All the other Gryffs know Snape is biased against them - when Snape acts out he is just being the bastard he is. Sometimes it even binds the Gryffindors together - like when he called Hermione an insufferable know-it-all. But to have McG humiliate you, put you in a position where your housemates witness your humiliation every day and then never admit that you were wrong to do so, is incredibly cruel,IMO. Demetra From kgpopp at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 23:08:27 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:08:27 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129930 > But everything he is thinking there is true, madorganization! Harry > DOES have more right to know what's going on than either Ron or > Hermione do. There is nothing wrong with feeling entitled when you > genuinely ARE entitled, which Harry most definitely is. If he did > not think that way it would be silly and unrealistic, as well as > untrue. > > Lupinlore Now I'm not bashing teens but ....I'd also say that feeling entitled is a fairly normally feeling amoung teens. (at least in the US). They feel entitled to have cars, thier own phone, go to parties. Most I think are testing thier boundaries and grow out of it. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 23:09:02 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:09:02 -0000 Subject: My Character Analysis of Snape (was:The Geist Predicts) In-Reply-To: <002c01c562fe$fe9c5280$5d59aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129931 My apologies of being so late to the mark (RL, you now), but since Nora and Amanda published some of their predictions regarding Snape, I couldn't avoid posting mine. This is not a plot theory (like MAGIC DISHWASHER or VASSAL) but more of a prediction or a character theory (like LOLLIPOP or George or Diana). Much of it isn't based on hard canon (since we have very little of it regarding Snape) but rather on my gut feeling and the vibes I think I get from the canon that we do have. Snape fans should be advised that my reading of Snape is quite different from Fanon!Snape, but this is my little theory, and I'll hug it and pet it and call it, er... maybe Fred? Anyway, in order to make it easier I arranged it according to all the common Snape questions. So here goes: * What was Severus like as a child? We only get two very short glimpses of Snape as a child (the memories that Harry saw in his mind) so I take it that they show us the most important things about him. Like Harry and Tom, Snape was an abused child and ridiculed by other children. As a result he became obsessed with gaining power through knowledge, and this is the origin of his dedication to the Dark Arts. This is also the origin of his obsession with fame and status ("you'll address me as Sir", "I'm the Potions master in this school", "bottle Fame, brew Glory", etc.) and why he's so vindictive. I believe the Snapes were purebloods, but probably not from a distinguished or a rich family, since I find nothing aristocratic about Snape (especially compared with Lucius). * What was Severus like at Hogwarts? As a pureblood and a passionate student of the Dark Arts, Snape was naturally sorted to Slytherin. Was he indeed part of the Lestranges' gang? I think they included him just because he was useful to have around, with all his Dark Arts skills, but as a strange kid he was never popular even in Slytherin. I find it significant that none of the gang appeared to help Severus in his Pensive memory. Either they were all older than him and had left Hogwarts by that time, or they were not present at that moment, or they were there but stayed low. Any of these options strongly suggests he was something of an outsider even within his own gang. The responses of the watching kids in the Pensieve memory show clearly that Snape was a hated kid at Hogwarts (at least among the non-Slytherins). This could be the herd following the popular leader in bullying a weak and strange kid, except that I can't see Snape as weak (like Neville for instance). Even James was able to meet him a curse for a curse only with the advantage of surprise and some backup from Sirius. I doubt any other kid at Hogwarts could take on Snape alone. This suggests to me that Snape was hated because he indulged in his own more sneaky style of bullying, and the vendetta between him and James was a two-side thing. In the light of grown-up Snape's comments to Harry about his father I certainly buy Lupin's opinion that Snape envied James' popularity. * Did Snape believe in the pureblood ideology? I think that as a pureblood and a Slytherin he grew up on it, but being more intelligent than most of his fellow Slytherins I'm sure he noticed that some muggleborn were more powerful and skilful than many purebloods. I think Snape never hated muggleborn more than he hated purebloods like James and Sirius. Snape was (and is) obsessed with knowledge, power and status, but not with ideology. * The role of the Prank I don't see the Prank as driving Snape to support Voldemort. I think he would have gone to Voldemort anyway, simply because Voldemort was the greatest Dark wizard in the world and Snape most probably worshipped his power and knowledge. IMO the Prank was fateful only because James saved Severus' life. Similarly to some Snape-like people I knew, I believe Snape couldn't stand "owing" a favor to anybody, especially not to his greatest adversary. For him this was like admitting James' superiority. He felt that he must "get even" before he could take real revenge of James. It is this twisted sense of honor, I think, that might prove Snape's redeeming quality. * Why did Snape join Voldemort? I see no mystery here at all. It was the easy default choice because all of his gang joined, but in Snape's case it was most probably his passion to become Voldemort's student and learn the Dark Arts from him. Snape also thought that in Voldemort's service he'll rise faster than the more popular but less intelligent Slytherins, and finally receive the status and fame that he deserved. * Did Snape take part in any atrocities while being a DE? Considering the canon regarding Regulus Black, I find it very difficult to believe he managed to avoid them completely, but I definitely see Snape doing more spying, planning and research than the actual torturing. This was more up his ally, and intelligent servants like him were certainly a rarer commodity than thugs like Crabbe and Goyle, or even fanatics like the Lestranges. * The Key Question: what is Snape's connection with Voldemort? I believe most Snape theories grossly underestimate the full implications of being a DE. It's not just taking part in atrocities. I think being a DE means, in some yet unspecified way, surrendering a part of your soul and become connected with Voldemort through some symbiotic, extremely powerful, super-evil Dark Arts link. As Crouch!Moody noted, some spots *never* come off. I believe this connection is The Key to Snape's character and all the mysteries that surround him, and it also what'll go BANG once it's revealed. We weren't told the exact nature of this connection, of course, so I'll have to use metaphors here. It might be helpful to think of Snape as if he was addicted to an extremely powerful drug. Voldemort had made him an addict, and only he can supply him with the drug. Or think of Snape as the servant of a vampire, supplying his master with blood and fast on the way to become a vampire himself. Only I suspect it's not standard vampirism that Voldy and the DEs are practicing, and it's not blood that they're addicted to, but other people's fear. Voldemort's existence and/or powers depend in some way on people fearing his name, and the connection of the Dark Mark with fear suggests that this is also true for his DEs (reminds you of Bella crucio-ing Neville and saying "that was just a taster"? Did she mean for Neville or for herself?). It also explains why Snape terrorizes his students in class, and why he goes especially after Neville. Neville is so afraid of Snape that Snape became his Boggart. Such an acute fear must be a special treat for Snape. * So why did Snape change sides? This is the great mystery, and IMO the reason wasn't moral, ideological, or romantic. It wasn't even just revenge, although (since Snape is a very vindictive person) this is most probably a part of it. The real reason is a plot reason that is related to the secret connection between Voldy and Snape. I suspect that Snape, being more intelligent and versed in the complexities of the Dark Arts than the other DEs, discovered the connection with Voldy is not symbiotic but parasitic, with himself in the role of the victim. Using the addiction metaphor, Snape discovered that Voldemort is slipping him the drug, and he realized that this drug will kill him in the end. DD is the only one who has an antidote that might cure Snape of his addiction. * How does Snape spy on Voldemort? I'm working on it . My work hypothesis is that the very secret that Snape had discovered about Voldy, the one that made Snape change sides, is also what enables him to spy on Voldy, or at least spy on the DEs. This would be elegantly economical plotting. Also, canon hints this has something to do with Lucius, although this of course might be a red herring. * Why does DD trust Snape? Simply put, because without DD Snape is dead, period. DD is Snape's only shield against Voldemort, and the only one who can help Snape to cut the connection and stay alive. But more than that, I think DD trusts Snape as a matter of principle. DD is battling with Voldemort over Snape's soul, and this battle is personal ("we both know that there are other ways of destroying a man than killing him"). DD believes in free will and choice. He thinks that *only* if Snape is given a truly free choice, he'll choose what's right over what's easy. * Why does DD let Snape teach? Because he must keep Snape at Hogwarts under his protection and guidance, but I think it's more than that. I suspect DD knows that Snape cannot survive without a small taste of other people's fear now and then, so he lets him feed on the kids, as long as Snape doesn't take too deep a bite. DD figures the kids can learn how to withstand it and even become immune, so they can stand better against their fear of Voldemort. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. * Why did Snape undertake the mission that DD asked of him in the end of GoF? Mainly because he knew this mission was necessary for defeating Voldemort, and thus for saving his own life, but again I think there's more to it. The "strange glitter" in Snape's eyes is telling. He's been abstaining for 14 years now, except for some meager doses of school children's fear, and now he's asked, for the greater good, to take a big dose of The Real Stuff one more time. It's extremely dangerous and it might kill him, but at least he'll have this one big feast. * Is Snape passionate about Potions? IMO, not really. Snape's real passion is and always has been the Dark Arts. Since it isn't taught at Hogwarts, Snape would have settled for teaching DADA, but DD wisely realized this would be too much of a temptation. So Snape is stuck in Potions, and he teaches it the way he would like to teach the Dark Arts. Analyzing the famous first lesson in SS/PS, practically all of Snape's "poetry" and questions have sinister connotations (addiction, mind control, poison, death, etc.) except for the "fame" and "glory" (which hint to Snape's obsession with status). I don't see any reason why Potions as a subject has to be sinister, why it has to be taught in the dungeons, etc. These are all clues to Snape's character, not to Potions. * Is Snape a good or a bad teacher? I actually think that strictly speaking he's not a bad teacher in Hogwarts standards . He's certainly better than Trelawney or Binns, not to mention Lockhart or Umbridge. I won't say he's a good teacher, mainly because I think (and I suspect JKR thinks so too) that a teacher's first duty is to teach his students to behave like human beings, and only after that the subject. Snape would have to get extremely good results to offset his behavior in class. If it turns out in HBP that Harry, Ron and Neville all got an `Outstandng' in Potions I'll have to change my mind, but I don't think it'll happen. * But Snape is entertaining! That he's most certainly is. So? JKR is an entertaining writer. Lucius Malfoy, for example, while getting much less stage time than Snape, also makes some of those entertaining sharky remarks ("you call this a house?" "Longbottom! Your grandmother is used to losing family members to our cause"). Does this mean we were intended to like him, or that he's a-good-person-although-his-not-a-nice-person? * Was Snape intended to be a romantic character? IMO, not in the sense of romance literature. I suspect many think so because he's so mysterious, which leaves a lot of room for reader's projection, and because he superficially resembles the dark-and-dangerous type that is frequently casted as the hero in romantic literature. But generally, JKR is not a romance writer. In five books none of the major plot developments happened because of romantic love. I doubt that anyone but James was ever in love with Lily, but if there must be someone my first bet would be Peter, then Remus. Severus as I read him wouldn't be attracted to Lily, not strictly because she was a muggleborn, but because she didn't represent enough status. As a whole, I think the "poetic" and "gothic" suggestions regarding Snape (billowing black robes, cold dungeons, potions and poisons, fame and glory and death...) were intended to portray him as romantic in the, er... classic meaning of this word. That is, Snape is a Faustian character, someone who had made a pact with the devil to get power and knowledge and is now trying to wriggle out of it. * Will Snape be redeemed? Surprisingly perhaps, I give him a very good chance. Voldemort and Snape both sold their soul for power, presumably in the same or a similar way. Voldemort is obviously a lost case, so I think Snape has to be the one to prove that DD isn't wrong about second chances. It might literally kill him, but I predict he will redeem himself. * What's in a name? JKR is devious with names; we all know that. But I suspect she's been twice as devious with Snape's name. On the surface, the interpretation of the name is as follows (using Webster Online): Severe: of a strict or stern bearing or manner. Snap: to retort to or interrupt curtly and irritably. This is obvious enough, but there's might be a second, more sneaky meaning: Sever: to remove (as a part) by or as if by cutting. Snap: to break suddenly with a sharp sound. So what is it that Snape severed, or is going to sever? May I suggest it will be his ties with a certain Dark Lord? Neri From k.coble at comcast.net Thu Jun 2 23:22:00 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:22:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95f431d3a21dd126c6da636a7ca3e74b@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129932 On Jun 2, 2005, at 12:18 PM, Beth wrote: > "pippin_999" wrote: > > > Why does Lupin seem unaffected by the dementor on the > > train? > > K: Since the books are from Harry's POV, and he was so greatly > affected, we aren't necessarily aware of how Lupin was/wasn't > affected. > > What was Lupin doing for twelve years between GH and > > Book Three? > K: I kind of think he must have been teaching something, somewhere. The letters on on valise which said "Professor RJ Lupin" were flaking, meaning they had been there awhile. Meaning, naturally, that he'd been a Professor for awhile. Where and of what are the questions.... > > > > Why is he afraid of? Trelawney? > K: I'm with others who think that he wasn't so much afraid of her as just avoiding her. > > Is his boggart really a full moon or does the "silvery orb" > > represent something else? > K: Occam's razor says that it's a full moon. > > Why is Lupin absent on Christmas day in PoA when > > it shouldn't be full moon yet? > K: Not to be rude, but many women have cramps before their cycles start. I've always assumed that Lupin may experience the same kind of general malaise when his cycle comes due..... > > Why did Snape think Lupin was in on the prank? > K: Because Snape, like Harry, can be a paranoid whiner at times. I think that much of his behaviour is supposed to be as a cautionary tale to Harry. > > Why isn't Lupin in any of Harry's photos? > K: He either took them (as another post-er mentioned) or they were of events wherein he wasn't present. My husband's best friends from High School aren't in many of our photos as a couple. Lupin is, however, in Madeye's picture of the order. > > Why wasn't Lupin at Harry's christening? > K: See above...... > > > Why does Lupin's case say "Professor R. > > J. Lupin" in peeling gold letters, if he's never had > > paid work? > Again, many possible explanations. > -He worked as tutor for werewolf children who could not go to > wizarding schools. > -He is RJ Lupin Jr. the case was his father's. > -He always wanted to teach so his friends gave him the case as gift > many years ago. K: All good points, and all which I agree with. Also, he _has_ had paying work. The conversation in OotP is that the paying work is MORE difficult to get after Umbridge's new decrees---which I took to mean that said decrees were passed down in the years between PoA and OotP. Harry's observations being that Lupin looked MORE shabby, etc. > > When Lupin leapt between Harry and Malfoy at > > the ministry battle, why didn't Malfoy curse him? > > K: That entire ministry battle was a huge Charlie Foxtrot, and not everyone had their wits about them. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From k.coble at comcast.net Thu Jun 2 23:36:25 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:36:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f521bc14b053f9ff04d59b49916f673@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129933 On Jun 2, 2005, at 12:45 PM, Tonks wrote: > > Tonks: > "There is no good or evil, only power and those too afraid to use > it." This is what LV believes. K: It's what he believes. Unfortunately, he is wrong. > > How did Tom become LV?? I have a theory about that, and here goes.? > There is an ancient magic, this much we know. In this ancient magic > before time and space there were 2 forces.? One is the force of pure > Love in its highest form.? This is the type of love that C.S. Lewis > refers to as Agape Love.? In this ancient magic there was also > another type of force, one that was weaker.? The weaker force > appears to be stronger because it is fueled by strong and dangerous > emotions of fear and hate.? K: This is Star Wars Cross Contamination, in my opinion. I think of LV's fall as more in line with Lucifer--driven by pride and a desire for immortality. > The stronger force is Love which appears > weaker because it is genital and kind.? K: I know this is a typo, but this type of love is Eros...;-) > Within the force of Love is > something else that is not show to the world often, but is the part > of Love that give it power "at once more wonderful and more terrible > than death?".? And this part of Love is self sacrifice and > forgiveness.? K: Nope. That's Grace. God's nature is Love. Grace is the action springing from that nature. > There is a saying, I think a quote by one of the Saints, and it goes > like this.? "Love and do as you will." K: This is a saying from Wicca, actually. I doubt a Catholic Saint would have said it. > ?? This implies something of > the "there is no good or evil only power" idea.? K: Again, you are trying to reconcile two diametrically opposed belief systems....the pantheistic Wiccan belief of dualism with the Christian belief of self-sacrificing love. I don't think it works. > The idea is that if > you truly Love with a capital L, then you will not do anything to > harm another living thing. This type of Love is what is in the room > in the MoM. > > Back to the second power, the weaker one.?? I know there are many > different spiritual believes in the members of this group, but lets > use the term *Devil* for a moment just to make the point easier to > illustrate.? Let's say there is such an entity as the *Devil* and > the second type of power is his.?? How would this play out in the > life of Tom Riddle??? Given his background it is possible to see Tom > as a teenager who was both afraid of death and of love.? One of the > weapons the Devil has is *fear*.? It is his most powerful weapon and > he uses it well.? He uses it as he whispers in the mind of Tom and > later through Tom to Harry.? Hate is also a weapon that the Devil > uses.?? These two, fear and hate, combined can work within anyone > and does work within Tom Riddle to make him into something that is > the embodiment of the second power and the opposite of Love.??????? > K: Two things...this is Star Wars cross-contamination again. "Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to hate....etc." All of that BS that Yoda spouts. One, Fear is natural. It gives us a context for struggle. Two, Anger is not bad or sinful. How one acts on their anger is. The other thing is that the Devil's greatest tool is pride. Pride is what he uses to lure Adam and Eve in the fall, etc. As Milton's Satan says "I'd rather Rule in Hell than Serve in Heaven." That is the nature of the Christian satan, and I believe is also the nature of LV. > Remember when Lupin (or was it DD?) tells Harry that it is good that > he is only afraid of *fear* itself?? That is another way of saying > that there is nothing that can separate us from Love, not even > death.? There is nothing to fear, but the idea of fear. K: Hey, it worked for FDR...... > > > The bottom line of what I am saying here is that it is Love that is > the great and powerful weapon in the DoM.It is a strong, > powerful, dangerous and wonderful Love with a capital L.? (Of > course, you all know by now what *Who* I think that really is. And > you also know that I think that this is the message the author has > in mind when writing her books.) > K: I've missed earlier discussions, I think. I can't recall the *who* that you think this is. I'm sorry if I've not been more verbose in my explanation. Basically, I realize that these stories are not overtly Christian in nature. However, I think that it would be nice, after sitting through 6 star wars movies, 4 of which were gratingly disappointing, that I'd like to see this story have a slightly different resolution. I'd like to see the bad guy be the bad guy for once and I'd like to see him vanquished. That's just my hope anyway. I'm not at all saying Tonks is wrong. I'm just bringing my baggage with me. Katherine [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jun 2 23:42:23 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:42:23 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > > > Alla: > > > I said that Snape did not deserve to BE provoked, but as > > far as we know nobody forced him to go into the Shack. > > > a_svirn: > And who says that he was "forced" to go there? Not even Snape clamed > that. Valky: I think Alla's point is that if Severus was not forced to go to the Shack against his will, then he must shoulder blame as far as at least making the decision to go there. I agree with that, and this is, in most ways, how I read the derisive noise that Sirius makes when Snape begins his monologue about the "prank". I don't think Sirius is expressing continued amusement at the prank I think he is expressing his contempt for the whole "I am completely blameless and innocent" line from Severus. Sirius does not think Sevvie was blameless, and apparently neither did Dumbledore. Also in respect to my point about James forgiving him, I think James needed to forgive the mess that Sirius got him and Lupin into. James would have needed to protect Snape from Transformed Lupin *without* giving away his animagii form. Besides the fact that I really doubt that James, in spite of his cockiness, didn't care about the danger Lupin had been put in either. So James had some things to forgive Sirius for, and he managed to. The entire Marauders crew would simply have to be a bunch of murderous malignants for it to be remotely possible that Snape was completely innocent. Is anyone prepared to argue flat out that they are? Valky From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jun 3 00:07:31 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:07:31 -0000 Subject: About Lupin's boggart Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129935 Many people have asked why there should be any doubt about the identity of Lupin's boggart. I would consider it solved, except that in OOP it's still being called a silvery orb --- Lupin looked from Mrs. Weasley to the dead Harry on the floor and seemed to understand in an instant. Pulling out his own wand, he said, very firmly and clearly, "Riddikulus!" Harry's body vanished. A silvery orb hung in the air over the spot where it had lain. Lupin waved his wand once more and the orb vanished in a puff of smoke.-- OOP ch 9 ---- The narrative voice is not given to poesy -- so why not say 'moon'? The other point is that Lupin doesn't say straight out that his boggart is the full moon -- he uses the same sort of equivocal language as when Snape asked about the map. "Full of Dark Magic?" he repeated mildly. "Do you really think so, Severus? It looks to me as though it is merely a piece of parchment that insults anybody who reads it. Childish, but surely not dangerous? I imagine Harry got it from a joke shop--" PoA ch 14 "Or did you realize that the boggart changed into the moon when it saw me?" -- PoA ch19 Pippin From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 01:31:37 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 01:31:37 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: <8f521bc14b053f9ff04d59b49916f673@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129936 Katherine: "I think that it would be nice, after sitting through 6 star wars movies, 4 of which were gratingly disappointing, that I'd like to see this story have a slightly different resolution. I'd like to see the bad guy be the bad guy for once and I'd like to see him vanquished." My own feeling is that this is not what JK Rowling is building towards. I also think it raises the question of whether there is truly any evil that does not, in some small measure, exist within us all. >From my perspective, Voldemort is evil yes ? but the true evil exists within the wizarding society, and he has been able to tap into this. I don't believe that this can be dealt with by vanquishing the `evil one'. I think this POV tends to place `evil' externally to the self and I think that's dangerous. Much like Hitler in Nazi Germany. Hitler behaved in evil ways, yes, but how does one man cause an entire nation to commit a reprehensible crime if there is not something preexisting in that society that makes it vulnerable to that? Too many times, I think, we are ready to localise the `badness' in others rather than in ourselves. It is an argument that suggests that if only the 'evil one' is vanquished, then evil will cease to exist and I think this leads to societal blindness. I think it will be more useful for Harry to identify Voldemort's humanity than for him to be vanquished without ever having been claimed as a product of the society that bred him. Sienna From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 01:38:16 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 01:38:16 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129937 > There is a difference between "not without guilt" and "greater share > of guilt". You say that Snape is to blame because he acted on his > own free will, according to his own choices, based on the > information he'd got and breaking school rules and security measures > in the process. But that's exactly what Harry Potter has been doing > since his year one. Would you say that he bears "the greater share > of guilt" that Voldermort for his near brushes with death? I suspect > you would not, but where is the difference? The way I see it the > only difference is that Harry is nice and good, while Snape is a > horrid slimeball. > > a_svirn Valky: Another difference I see is that Harry is not carrying on like a royal prat about others putting him in danger, he accepts his blame and yes when he seeks out Voldemort I think I recognises that his share of guilt is greater. I think OOtP is a big testamnet to this about Harry, notice that he is worried about the danger he put his friends in, it doesn't really cross his mind at all to blame anyone for his own life being threatened, he is quite resolute about that. Yes he blames Snape for Sirius' death, but that is on a different level, and in any case at this stage its just a salve of denial for a fresh wound so it means hardly a thing in comparison to Snapes carry on. I think that an important thing to remember is that Dumbledore probably handled Severus after the prank in the same way he handled Harry after OOtP, (ie telling him that the responsibility for action lies with the person who did it ultimately). Consider Snape in the shoes of Harry when DD tells him that Sirius death was a consequence of Sirius' own choices, imagine Snape being told the same thing about himself. All these 20 years later he still hasn't accepted that, what if in just a few weeks Harry does? He probably will and that is a fact which is the biggest difference between Snape and Harry. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 02:01:15 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 02:01:15 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129938 Steve/bboyminn: And once again, in no case is Snape without guilt of his own. Snape made a conscious choice to do something that is both wrong and logically dangerous. He chose to put himself in harms way. Eloise: Sirius knew exactly what he was doing in tempting him to follow a werewolf into an enclosed environment. Alla: I'd like to say that we don't know yet whether Sirius knew exactly what he was doing that night and what exactly Sirius was doing. Just me of course. Steve/bboyminn: Let me conclude by re-enforcing the point that no matter how much guilt may belong to Snape, it doesn't absolve Sirius's action. Eloise: No, it doesn't. What he did was utterly wrong, yet he shows no regret, not even an acknowledgement that it was wrong, just childishly tries to justify it like my kids might: "Don't hit your sister." "But she was annoying me." Alla: Doesn't it strike you as strange that Sirius after spending twelve years in Azkaban reacts so violently at the first mention of Snape's name. Granted, you can argue that Sirius is a vicious murderer, who always wanted to kill Snape, but isn't it possible that this reaction shows hatred which relies on something much more in depth than the fact that Snape was spying on them? For twelve years Dementors were eating up Sirius' happy thoughts. If his reactions about Snape were left intact, isn't it possible that something VERY unhappy connects those two? Eloise: And in this case, the "Prank" was designed with malice aforethought, even if Sirius hadn't thought the implications through completely. Alla: I don't think we know yet for sure that Prank was designed with malice aforethought. I may be wrong of course. Steve/bboyminn: In simpliest terms, there is a difference between throwing someone into a dean of wolves, and simply telling him where the dean is. That's all I'm trying to say. > Eloise: > If you *know* that the person will enter the den, then morally, > there's no difference at all, IMHO. Alla: Oh, I disagree with you, Eloise and I agree with Steve. Simple hypothetical. The person whom I consider to be my enemy tells me that if I jump of the cliff to the river or ocean and dive, I will find there "Harry Potter book 7". THEN this person tells me ( and he knows that I cannot swim well) that the river is very deep there and I can drown easily. So, for me as obsessive HP fan the temptation is huge. I choose to jump off the cliff and I almost drown, alas. Are you saying that I bear no culpability in that situation? Are you saying that there is no difference in culpability of the other person as if he would not have warned me or forced me to jump? I chose to go and look for the book. I refused to wait another few years. :-) I was being an idiot, I would say. Wouldn't you agree? > Valky: Sirius does not think Sevvie was blameless, and apparently neither did Dumbledore. Alla: I don't know for sure what Dumbledore thinks of course, but I believe that what you are saying IS a possibility, because I always thought that " My memory is as good as ever" to be opened to very wide interpretations. One more thing - we all know JKR's answer on her website to the question " Do you like Sirius Black?", where she lists his positive and negative qualities. I am not going to quote the whole answer again, but just one sentence. "Sirius is brave, loyal, reckless, embittered and slightly unbalanced by his long stay in Azkaban." The word which I am looking at here is loyal. If loyalty is one of Sirius' determining qualities, isn't it possible that he did not actually betray Remus or at least was not planning consciously to betray Remus and again, maybe there is something about Prank we are not privy to yet. Please forgive me for talking like a Parrot. :-) Just my opinion of course, Alla From nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 02:06:55 2005 From: nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com (catimini15) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 02:06:55 -0000 Subject: Why Did Voldemort Live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129940 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mightymaus75" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" > > wrote: > > > Actually, Rowling didn't say that we should be asking "Why did > > > Voldemort live?" Instead, she said that no one's ever asked her > this > > > question: "Why didn't Voldemort die?" (Edinburgh Book Festival > > > transcript). (snip) > > I think you have made an important point there. In my opinion the > > reason Voldemort did not die is that he is not truly alive. > Voldemort > > cannot feel love, Voldemort cannot feel the pain that goes with > love, > > Voldemort has lost everything that made him alive as a result of > the > > steps he took long ago to guard himself against death. This then is > > why Dumbledore tells Harry at the end of PS/SS: "not being truly > > alive, he cannot be killed." (Snip, snip, snip) Bonjour, I apologize for going so far up-thread but I wanted to find the last post on the "Why didn't Voldemort die" because I noticed something while rereading PS/SS in preparation for HPB. Tamara might be right when she says that You-Know-Who cannot die because he is already dead. But this is not why I am posting. The point I want to make is that some characters, in the first book at least, seem to think that it is pretty obvious that Voldemort can't die. Let me explain... I just realized, right from chapter one (The Boy Who Lived), that McGonagall, who's seeking information by questioning DD in Privet Drive, has all the reason in the world to believe that You-Know-Who is dead because, after all, no one has ever survived an AK. But strangely, even before DD confirms everything she has heard, she never says You-Know-Who - oh, all right, Voldemort - is d-e-a-d, dead. Talking about Voldy to DD in Privet Drive, she says (at 4 different moments): -"A fine thing it would be if, on the very day You-Know-Who seems to have disappeared..." -"I suppose he really has gone, Dumbledore?" -"As I say, even if You-Know-Who has gone..." -"No one knows why, or how, but they're saying that when he couldn't kill Harry Potter, Voldemort's power somehow broke - and that's why he's gone." Incidently, she does not have any problem to say that James and Lily are dead because she knows they have sadly been the target of a well cast avada kedavra. But the AK curse Voldy intended to kill Harry with bounced, and apparently hit Voldy back. Why does McGonagall seem so sure that Voldemort is just gone and did not die? Because she knows already that he can't die. Just like Hagrid when he says later on: "Some say he died. Codswallop, in my opinion. Dunno if he had enough human in him to die". What's with Voldy? Why does it seem normal for some characters to assume that he can't die? Who or what is he? Oh! Oh! I see a Sally Slytherin's possession theory coming this way... Fire on! But bear in mind that I have not posted since December 2004 (too busy, new job and all), and my written English is rusty. So is my HP knowledge. I have been lurking from time to time all winter and spring though, and I miss Kneasy, SSSusan, Snow and JustCarol67. I don't see your posts that often anymore... Hope your're well. Nadine (catimini15) From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Jun 3 02:27:27 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 02:27:27 -0000 Subject: Snape/McGonagall/Neville (was: Admonishing Snape) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129941 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "demetra1225" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > wrote: > [snip] > > I have never understood the idea that McGonagall respects Snape > > (beyond the demands of her profession) or regards him with anything > > other than disdain. The idea that she would be friends with someone > > who abuses the members of her own house is utterly ludicrous. > > Demetra: > > > I don't think that McG is able to hide her disdain of people she > considers to be poor teachers very well. It seems to me that she has > little regard for teachers who are full of crap regarding their > subject - ie Trelawney, Lockhart. I cannot recall any instance where > McG speaks to Snape, or about Snape, in the same manner in which she > speaks about these two. Keep in mind, too, she makes disparaging > remarks about Trelawney to a class of students! If she has disdain > for Snape, I think we would have been treated to at least one of her > trademark sarcastic comments about him. > > As for the end of OOTP, when McG returns from St Mungo's, I read it > that Snape is genuinely happy to see her back - hence the exclamation > points when he says "Professor McGonagall!" "Back from St. Mungo's I > see!" Note that there is no mention of Snape sneering or smirking > when he says this, not even a mention of him saying it in a silky > voice - one of which is usually mentioned when he is in full snark- > mode. And I think McG's business like response was more to remind > Snape that Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle were still there, and he couldn't > be seen acting all happy to see her back. > > > Now to go off on a tangent, I found your last statement interesting. > Now, I'm going to preface this with a statement that I really like > McG overall as a character. She often cracks me up - "tripe, Sybill" > for example. But much as I love her, I contend that her mistreatment > of Neville, while less frequent, is as abhorrent as Snape's. Here's > some canon: > > > I personally think that this humiliation from McG, who is supposed to > be the parent away from home is worse than Snape's. All the other > Gryffs know Snape is biased against them - when Snape acts out he is > just being the bastard he is. Sometimes it even binds the Gryffindors > together - like when he called Hermione an insufferable know-it-all. > > > Demetra Very interesting. What do others think of the McGonagall/Snape/Neville dynamic? As I say, I think the thing that gets in the way of my believing McGonagall regards Snape as a friend is his unfairness to, indeed open disdain for, her house. I find it hard to believe that she would just wave that off and merrily stroll arm in arm with him through the gardens on his way to abusing more Gryffindors. Also I read the end of OOTP as a rather amusing example of her using the rules, in prime McGonagall style, to whittle Snape down to size, right up to the final touch of taking the last ten points from Harry (i.e. "Oh yes, I've given 300 points but you do have to have your measly ten, don't you Sevvie?"). Talk about thrusting the knife in then twisting it! In that sense I see it as a mirror of Dumbledore hanging Snape out to dry at the end of PoA. However, her treatment of Neville is indeed questionable. Indeed, her handling of Harry in OOTP gives new meaning to "stupid and maladroit." The best I can say for her is she just isn't very adept at people problems -- not a minor failing for someone who heads a house full of adolescents. Perhaps she relies on Dumbledore to step in if there is a real personal crisis with one of the students, and of course he was not available in OOTP. Anyway, what do you think? Lupinlore From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 02:38:00 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 02:38:00 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129942 > > > Valky: > > Sirius does not think Sevvie was blameless, and apparently neither > did Dumbledore. > > Alla: > > I don't know for sure what Dumbledore thinks of course, but I > believe that what you are saying IS a possibility, because I always > thought that " My memory is as good as ever" to be opened to very > wide interpretations. > > Valky: I based that on the fact that Sirius was not given a satisfactory punishment according to Snape. So it is fairly clear that Dumbledore doesn't agree with Snape about the level of responsibility each child had for the whole thing. I expect that if Dumbledore thought Snape was blameless he would have told him so and there would be more indications of this from everyone. Snape would be more satisfied with the disciplinary action for a start. It does seem that part of Sevvies problem with this is that his claim of innocence has never been vindicated. I suppose its mainly opinion but I think that its fairly well supported if I had more time I would investigate it myself. Valky From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 03:01:40 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 03:01:40 -0000 Subject: Bad Ass Lupin (was:Re: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129943 >>Jen: >Jen, still laughing at Betsy calling Lupin a bad ass and thinking maybe she'll upgrade her own view of Lupin to a bad-ass huggybunny.< Betsy Hp: Glad I could amuse. :) So here's some reasons that I think Lupin is much more of a bad-ass than many folks give him credit for (including his fellow characters). I first started re-thinking "sweet, good- natured" Lupin after reading this essay by Donnaimmaculata: http://www.livejournal.com/users/donnaimmaculata/59827.html Obviously she was talking mainly about how she uses Lupin in her fanfiction, but she brought up some interesting points. For one thing, Lupin was damn *scary* in the Shrieking Shack. Sirius may have had the whole, "I'm crazy, man! There's no telling *what* I might do!" vibe going on. But Lupin was very much the ice-cold, "You have succeeded in annoying me, so of course you must die," clinical killer guy. He was the one Peter was most at risk from, and Peter *knew* it. >From the moment Lupin greeted him with his: "Well, hello, Peter," said Lupin pleasantly, [...] "Long time, no see." (PoA scholastic hardback p.366) to his equally tranquil: "You should have realized," said Lupin quietly, "if Voldemort didn't kill you, we would. Good-bye, Peter." (ibid p.375) Lupin remains calm and cool and ready to execute Peter once he has all the information he needs, with no suggestion of "proper authorities". And Lupin doesn't have the "I've been rotting in Azkaban!" excuse that Sirius has. No, Lupin is thinking quite clearly and comes quite calmly to the conclusion that cold-blooded murder is the proper response. I would also point out that when Peter is desperately arguing for his life, Sirius needs to go all capslocks on him to shut him up. "But Lupin silenced him with a look." (ibid p.371) Lupin is most definitely the man in charge. There are hints throughout PoA that Lupin is something more than "mild-mannered professor". First is how quickly and apparently easily he handles the dementor on the train. Another big hint is Snape's behavior when he drops off Lupin's potion. Snape does not turn his back on him. "He backed out of the room, unsmiling and watchful." (ibid p.156) Why? I can't imagine Snape treating Sirius like he was that dangerous. In fact, I think Snape would cultivate an air of contempt (he seems to in OotP, I think.) But with Lupin, Snape backs out of a room. To my mind, Snape must either know something or suspect something about Lupin that tells him, this man is dangerous - treat with extreme caution. (Okay, yes, he's a werewolf, but I don't think Snape thought Lupin would suddenly transform and jump him as he left the office.) Another interesting part of this scene is Lupin's subtle digs at Snape. During the entire scene Lupin refers to Snape as Severus. I think he's the only person besides Dumbledore who does so. I seriously doubt Snape (who calls Lupin, Lupin throughout the scene) asked Lupin to call him Severus. And it seems that staff members generally stick with last names. Lupin certainly refers to Snape as Professor Snape when he talks about him with Harry, but while talking to Snape, he calls him Severus. It's small, but to me its an example of Lupin getting a bit of his own back. I love it! He was the last wizard standing at the final battle in OotP and I think it's because, until Dumbledore showed up, Lupin was the most dangerous man in the room. Pippin makes an excellent argument for ESE!Lupin (message # 129902) and there's definitely more to Lupin than first meets the eye. The only rebuttle I can make is "No! No! I *like* Lupin!" and cross my fingers and hope that Lupin isn't evil, he's just a bad-ass. Betsy Hp, so this is a second attempt at posting after some emergency cut and pasting. I apologize for any format weirdness. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 03:15:54 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 03:15:54 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Loyalty (was:Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129944 >>Alla: [quoting JKR] >"Sirius is brave, loyal, reckless, embittered and slightly unbalanced by his long stay in Azkaban." >The word which I am looking at here is loyal. If loyalty is one of Sirius' determining qualities, isn't it possible that he did not actually betray Remus or at least was not planning consciously to betray Remus...< Betsy Hp: Is Sirius loyal to Remus? Up until James and Lily and Harry were betrayed to Voldemort, Sirius thought Remus was the traitor. So there was a good long time when Sirius probably had no loyalty towards Remus. And from the brief glimpse we had during the pensieve scene it looked like the core friendship was James and Sirius with Remus and Peter more on the outside. Sirius was awfully cavalier about Remus' disease as well. I'm not saying Sirius didn't *like* Remus, but I think his loyalty was mainly towards James. Just a thought. Betsy Hp From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 03:22:30 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 03:22:30 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129945 I'm not really replying to what anyone has said so far, but I though I'd add an idea I just had, so you can fuss at me if its already been listed. First off, we know from some of the quotes from the book that Snape followed the Marauders around, sorry I don't have quotes handy. It was said he followed them around to get them in trouble. On a side note to that, isn't that exactly what he still does to students, follows them around, Example of the scene in the GOF during the Yule Ball where he's finding kids in the garden's to punish. Hummm....Snape Police?? (laughs) Ok, so we know young Snape obviously would have exibited the same tendancy. Second, Isn't it also stated that Sirius, James, and Peter always hung out when Lupin in Animagus form while he was a WereWolf? Sorry if I have this info wrong, but I though they said they could keep him calm...etc etc, and hung out together OK, so here is the scene/theory, if Lupin was heading to the Shack to transform, and Sirius and James and Peter hung out with him while he was a Werewolf, Isan't it very easy to assume that Sirius was heading to the Shack to meet up with the group to go inside and hang out with Lupin? Could it be easy to assume that perhaps Sirius got to the shack Early or was on the way their when he noticed Snape following him, or he was approached by Snape while outside waiting for James or Peter or both. Wouldn't Snape being the little policeman that he is say something like. "What are you doing outside Black, you know you're not supposed to be out here"....etc etc. Maybe even if he were near the Womping Willow, perhaps a measure of taunting. "What are you up to Black, I'd love to see whats so all fire exciting about being out here near the Womping Willow? If your planing on commiting death by tree, I think I'll stay and watch?" So, if something like that did happen, wouldn't Sirius come back with his own taunt. "Why the bloody hell do you always have to follow us around, Snivillus! If you want to know so bad, why don't you do xyz and you can sneak past the tree and see whats so all fire exciting. or "Well Snivillus if you think your man enough why don't you do xyz and see what happens, I dare you, you little sneak." So, perhaps Snape did exactly that, and When James arrived and Sirius might have said "That Bloody Snivillus was following me, I'm tired of him, I hope he wets himself when he gets in their." And James might say. "Are you crazy, you might get him killed, I don't want his blood on our hands, I don't care how much I hate him. What were you thinking!" Sirius might say..."DOH." (ok..LOL probably not that) But I was kinda thinking along the lines that, Sirius probably didn't put that much though into what happened or what he was saying to Snape. He might have just been mad that Snape followed him. Anyway, I hope this idea isan't something someone has already had, it just seems like it might be close to what might have happened, what do you guys think? KarentheUnicorn From alishak at spu.edu Thu Jun 2 17:55:58 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:55:58 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129946 > Lupinlore: > But everything he is thinking there is true, madorganization! > Harry DOES have more right to know what's going on than either > Ron or Hermione do. There is nothing wrong with feeling > entitled when you genuinely ARE entitled, which Harry most > definitely is. If he did not think that way it would be silly > and unrealistic, as well as untrue. Alisha: I don't think it is true. Now, we as readers know, now, that Harry is entitled to more information than he gets, but this is because we know: 1) The prophecy. We know that Harry is destined to defeat Voldemort, so we think he should have all the information he can get to help him in this task 2) The title of the series. We all know that all the books are called "Harry Potter and..." We know there will be seven books and, even before the prophecy, we could surmise that, at the end of the seventh book, Harry would defeat Voldemort. However, at this point in the story, Harry doesn't know either of these things. Yes, he has faced more than Ron or Hermione. Yes, Voldemort is trying to kill him. These things are true and valid, but since when do either of them make him more entitled to information? Especially when he knows that they /can't/ send him any pertinent info via owl. He has been told by Molly that DD has his reasons for sending Harry back to the Dursley's. LV even told him in the graveyard that he cannot reach him while Harry is with his relatives. I realize that throughout OotP Harry comes to distrust DD because DD won't talk to him, but this is not the case at the beginning of the book. Harry has come to trust DD over the last four books. He may not always confide in him, but, generally, when DD says something, Harry takes it as true (Snape having truly changed sides, for instance), even when DD doesn't divulge his reasons. So why the sudden, sullen sulking over a situation no one can change? Alisha - using my last post of the day way too early for me to stay sane for the whole rest of it. From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 2 18:04:47 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:04:47 +0100 Subject: The next to die in book 6 Message-ID: <001101c5679d$91c12d90$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 129947 We have all, I know, been conjecturing who will be next to go in HBP. One or two seem to have suggested Percy. I personally feel Jo would kill him off if it was a case of his refusing to have the grace to recognise his mistakes and apologise to his family. In chapter 9 of OotP, we notice Molly's state when she sees the dead figures of her family. During the subsequent conversation, she confided her concern that Percy's death would occur whilst they were still at loggerheads. I, however, feel that Percy will have seen the error of his ways by the next book. Let's face it, he can't stick to his attitude that Harry's deluded, now that Fudge has seen Voldemort himself or now it's been in the papers. Regarding Charley and Bill, I feel that their death could be possible, but I feel Molly could even be considered. After all, Harry's now coming to consider her as a mother figure. Derek From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 03:26:14 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 03:26:14 -0000 Subject: Bad Ass Lupin (was:Re: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129948 > >>Jen: > >Jen, still laughing at Betsy calling Lupin a bad ass and thinking > maybe she'll upgrade her own view of Lupin to a bad-ass huggybunny.< > > Betsy Hp: > Another interesting part of this scene is Lupin's subtle digs at > Snape. During the entire scene Lupin refers to Snape as Severus. I > think he's the only person besides Dumbledore who does so. I > seriously doubt Snape (who calls Lupin, Lupin throughout the scene) > asked Lupin to call him Severus. And it seems that staff members > generally stick with last names. Lupin certainly refers > to Snape as Professor Snape when he talks about him with Harry, but > while talking to Snape, he calls him Severus. It's small, but to me > its an example of Lupin getting a bit of his own back. I love it! > > He was the last wizard standing at the final battle in OotP and I > think it's because, until Dumbledore showed up, Lupin was the most > dangerous man in the room. > > Pippin makes an excellent argument for ESE!Lupin (message # 129902) > and there's definitely more to Lupin than first meets the eye. The > only rebuttle I can make is "No! No! I *like* Lupin!" and cross my > fingers and hope that Lupin isn't evil, he's just a bad-ass. Valky: Ooh Besty I like Badass Lupin! You make a good case for it, and then I also have to add that in OOtP its interesting how Lupin saying No *I* will talk to Severus, about Harry's occlumency lessons really sits Sirius back down about it. This one never really sat still with me, and I have looked in to any number of Theories to explain it. After all *Sirius* is the Bad Ass right? Why is Lupin the one who should get this sorted? It would be perfect that Lupin is the one who'll intimidate the hell out of Sevvie just by walking towards him, that would suit me fine. BTW Betsy, IMO Lupin will NEVER be proven ESE, however I highly respect and admire the case Pippin has made for it. I like BadAss Lupin much more for numerous reasons. Like, for example, he'd have to be relatively tough after going through his life of torture, and he handles a bunch of rowdy teenagers with fussless perfection yep I think so, it fits. From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 2 18:53:25 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:53:25 -0400 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429F55A5.3000603@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 129949 >Alisha: >>there's a lot of "wasn't it him who..." thinking going on. >>/He's/ the one who did this.../he's/ faced more than either >>of them...Voldemort killed /his/ parents. This is the >>attitude in Harry that I, personally, resent. Lupinlore wrote: > But everything he is thinking there is true, madorganization! > Harry DOES have more right to know what's going on than either > Ron or Hermione do. There is nothing wrong with feeling > entitled when you genuinely ARE entitled, which Harry most > definitely is. If he did not think that way it would be silly > and unrealistic, as well as untrue. Besides which, he feels guilty for these thoughts. He can't help feeling them and fights against them, then feels bad that he has them, then has them all over again. Who among us has NEVER thought "I am better than so-and-so, I deserve more than so-and-so"? Come on, be honest. It doesn't mean that, in the greater scheme of things, we are snobs or stuck-up, because 99% of us quickly realize "oh wait, that may be in part true, but it's not fair, they're better than me in these other areas, we're all human here". That doesn't stop the fleeting thought, the sense of injustice. I would even argue that Harry's feelings of guilt over his feelings of 'entitlement' or 'injustice' are a large part of the reason why he does lash out at his friends. In psycho- speak, he's just externalizing his anger at himself. It's totally irrational, but it's human. You're upset with your friends, so you lash out at them. Then you feel guilty about it. So you get mad at yourself. So you lash out at your friends some more, rather than truly admit your own fault to yourself. Anyway. I think the whole thing *should* be settled by the fact that Harry does harbour guilt over these negative feelings. He knows they're not 'right' but he can't help it. The whole book shows Harry struggling with feelings he KNOWS he shouldn't be having, but he's powerless against them. Now we could argue as to whether he could actually have been trying harder, or whether he was just 'giving in' to the feelings too easily. However, even then I would argue that the latter is totally normal, for any human being, and especially for a teenager, and ESPECIALLY a teenager who has been abused, neglected, and tortured. Poor guy must be emotionally exhausted, no wonder he behaves immaturely. And I'll suggest again, that I would not be at all surprised if his 'connection' to Voldemort is further influencing the strength and the tenacity of his negative emotions, in other words Voldemort's own negative feelings are affecting Harry's. heather the buzzard From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 18:52:07 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:52:07 -0400 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429F5557.7040500@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129950 quigonginger wrote: > Q:> Why is Lupin absent on Christmas day in PoA when > > it shouldn't be full moon yet? > A: He was suffering from PMS (pre-moon-syndrome) There was a full moon on Halloween. It's 55 days between Halloween and Christmas (30 + 25). That's also 28 + 27. Depending on what time the moon rose, it could be that he was hanging out in his office on Christmas waiting for the moon to rise! He surely wouldn't want to risk ruining everyone's Christmas feast by transforming in front of them all! Michelle, who utterly rejects the ESE!Lupin but is fascinated (though unconvinced) by ESE!McGonagall From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 2 19:08:00 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:08:00 -0400 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429F5910.2030602@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 129951 quigonginger wrote: >Q:> Why does Lupin's case say "Professor R.J. Lupin" in peeling >gold letters, if he's never had paid work? >> >A: The man's an optomist. Although it could have belonged to >his twin, Romulus Jack. (who went to school elsewhere) Heehee... I know you're being funny, and we know that JKR has said that Remus does not have a twin named Romulus though she appreciates why we would think so... But that did get me thinking. Perhaps Lupin's father was a professor? With the same initials? That's not unheard of. He's really not old enough to have a briefcase that tattered and worn. His clothes are understandable -- he rips them when he transforms, and he's poor from not getting much work and has to buy second-hand. But if he buys stuff second-hand, how did he get a briefcase with his name on it? If he got the briefcase second-hand and had his name added to it, how would the name already be peeling? Generally, someone with their name on their briefcase, has been using it for quite some time. So there are really only 2 possiblities that I can see. 1) He was a professor elsewhere in the intermediary time, and the statement of not finding paid work was a red herring of some sort, or 2) the case belonged to an older relative, presumably a father or perhaps an uncle (heck, why not even a mother or an aunt?) heather the buzzard From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 2 19:15:28 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:15:28 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129952 "madorganization" wrote: > he doesn't reason that he has as much > right as Ron and Hermione to know > what's going on. He thinks he has more. Well the fact is, Harry has done more to defeat Voldemort than Ron or Hermione or Dumbledore for that matter, and he has suffered far more than they have because of it, so he does have more of a right to know what was going on. I cannot imagine any real flesh and blood person not feeling some resentment under those conditions. A comic book hero might say "ah shucks what I did ain't nothing" but a real person never would, at least not say it and mean it. > there's a lot of "wasn't it him who..." > thinking going on. /He's/ the one who > did this.../he's/ faced more than > either of them...Voldemort killed /his/ parents. Thinking! Doesn't Harry have the right to think what he wants? And again, Harry's reasoning was absolutely positively 100% correct. Harry would have to be retarded not to realize that his accomplishments would be remarkable for a wizard of any age let alone one who had just turned 15. Harry doesn't ask to be treated like a hero, he just doesn't like to be treated like a lying attention seeking little fool who is too stupid to be informed about what is going on. Eggplant From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 2 19:41:47 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:41:47 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129953 "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > No, we won't all get diabetes because it's real, That may well be true but the question is will it make a good story? To be blunt Harry Potter needs more gratuitous violence, like the wonderful graveyard scene in book 4. I don't want the series to end in a love fest, I want it to end in a bloodbath. I don't want Voldemort to be loved to death in book 7, I want him to be disemboweled. And if at least one self appointed guarding of the nation's morals doesn't thunder that Rowling is corrupting the next generation then she is not doing her job. Eggplant From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 2 20:13:32 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 20:13:32 -0000 Subject: Harry and Post traumatic stress disorder In-Reply-To: <20050602162644.72591.qmail@web50501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129954 Julie Rice wrote: > Harry saw Cedric murdered and LV rise again, > so his reaction would be a lot stronger than somebody > just hearing about it or someone further away. I'm surprised you didn't mention that Harry was tied to a tombstone and tortured so horribly he quite literally wanted to die; that would induce PTSD in most people. Eggplant From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 04:01:36 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 04:01:36 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? In-Reply-To: <429F5910.2030602@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129955 > quigonginger wrote: > >Q:> Why does Lupin's case say "Professor R.J. Lupin" in peeling > >gold letters, if he's never had paid work? > >> > >A: The man's an optomist. Although it could have belonged to > >his twin, Romulus Jack. (who went to school elsewhere) > > > heather the buzzard > Heehee... I know you're being funny, and we know that JKR has > said that Remus does not have a twin named Romulus though she > appreciates why we would think so... > > But that did get me thinking. Perhaps Lupin's father was a > professor? With the same initials? That's not unheard of. > He's really not old enough to have a briefcase that tattered > and worn. His clothes are understandable -- he rips them when > he transforms, and he's poor from not getting much work and has > to buy second-hand. But if he buys stuff second-hand, how did > he get a briefcase with his name on it? If he got the briefcase > second-hand and had his name added to it, how would the name > already be peeling? > > Generally, someone with their name on their briefcase, has been > using it for quite some time. So there are really only 2 possiblities that I can see. 1) He was a professor elsewhere in > the intermediary time, and the statement of not finding paid work > was a red herring of some sort, or 2) the case belonged to an > older relative, presumably a father or perhaps an uncle (heck, > why not even a mother or an aunt?) Valky: I see another possibility not considered. Perhaps Lupin was a professor in his first job out of school some years ago before word got around about his condition. He bought himself a nice new briefcase to celebrate his prospects of a happy and relatively normal future... then suddenly a mishap occurs and he's found out, nobody wants him around anymore and he goes home taking his shiny new briefcase with him. He spends years resigned to never being able to hold down another job while his shiny happy briefcase sits forlornly in a musty cupboard as a reminder of the misfortune that he will never overcome. Then he gets the call from Dumbledore, asking him to teach Harry and his friends, and something stirs in him, a happy memory of his friends James and Lily, the sense of comfort and belonging that Dumbledore carries like an aura everywhere he goes. Remus takes out his old suitcase, its shabby from all the times he kicked and scratched it during transformations, the gold is faded and peeling, but it still represents the same wonderful hope that it did when he first bought it all those years ago. With his childhood dreams firmly in hand Lupin goes to Kings Cross to catch the Hogwarts express. Valky From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jun 3 04:06:49 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:06:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Some won't like it". Message-ID: <27.7386cc7a.2fd13159@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129956 In a message dated 6/2/2005 10:24:46 PM Central Standard Time, alishak at spu.edu writes: However, at this point in the story, Harry doesn't know either of these things. Yes, he has faced more than Ron or Hermione. Yes, Voldemort is trying to kill him. These things are true and valid, but since when do either of them make him more entitled to information? . So you're saying that Harry's NOT entitled to know why a homicidal maniac has made 4 separate attempts on his life? IMO, that more than any other reason does entitle him to some cold hard facts. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Fri Jun 3 05:08:41 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (ericoppen) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 05:08:41 -0000 Subject: My own take on the infamous Prank Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129957 I think, myself, that the Prank resulted not so much from _murderous_ intent on Sirius' part as "familiarity breeding contempt." Sirius had been hanging with a werewolf for so long that he may have forgotten just _how_ dangerous werewolves are. Kind of like this: Let us say that I am an absolutely crack horseman--- that there is nothing on four hooves I can't ride. (I'm nothing of the sort, but bear with me) And I have someone in my life who's been a load in my trousers, so to speak, since Day One. I could see myself inducing this PITA to try to ride a very dangerous buckin' bronco, thinking, (subconsciously) that "of course he won't be hurt. After all, I can do this perfectly easily. He _will_ get the scare of his life, though...and won't it serve him right?" Although I may have no intention of actually murdering my enemy, he could well die, just because I was so used to this that it didn't occur to me that _he_ might well not be as well-equipped to deal with it as I am. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 06:15:37 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:15:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129958 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > > Valky: > > > > Sirius does not think Sevvie was blameless, and apparently neither > > did Dumbledore. > > Alla: > > > > I don't know for sure what Dumbledore thinks of course, but I > > believe that what you are saying IS a possibility, because I > > always thought that " My memory is as good as ever" to be opened > > to very wide interpretations. > Valky: > I based that on the fact that Sirius was not given a satisfactory > punishment according to Snape. So it is fairly clear that Dumbledore > doesn't agree with Snape about the level of responsibility each > child had for the whole thing. > > ...edited... > > Valky bboyminn: OK, so how was Sirius punished? Do you know? Of course you don't and that is the whole point. You don't know so you can say with certainty whether the punishment was fair or not. And since when does Snape get to decide what punishments are handed out by the headmaster? Are you implying that 16 year old Snape knows better and is more objective than the 130 year old headmaster of the school? I think not. That would be like letting Draco determine what punishments were justified for Harry, or Harry determining Draco's punishments. Headmaster and teachers simply don't do that. We don't know what the punishment was, so WE don't know if it was just or not. Snape is still holding a grudge in the matter, absolving himself and placing full blame on Sirius, but that doesn't mean an unbiased informed third part would agree. Further, to my main point, we don't know what happened during the Prank. We don't know how Snape was enticed into entering the Whomping Willow. Without this information, we can not reasonable assign a degree of blame to any of the participants. The best we can do is realize that neither Snape nor Sirius was blameless. You are certainly free to speculate that Sirius tried to kill/murder Snape, but there is no evidence of that fact. In one of the hypotheticals I posted (Reverse Psychology), Sirius actually tells Snape that it is deadly dangerous, and further, specifically tells him not to go. Of course, I can't say that is how it happened, I simply proposed three scenarios in which the degree of blame shifted between parties. Just because Snape is still holding a childish grudge doesn't not validate his opinion as absolute fact; Snape is a highly biased. If we are going to take this tack, then we could say that Draco tried to kill Harry by telling McGonagall about the Dragon/Norbert, because Draco's action cause Harry to get a detention that almost lead to his death. If Draco had kept his mouth shut, Harry wouldn't have been in danger. You can debate whether that is a fair analogy, but the fact remains that we simply do not know enough about the details of the Prank to be bandying about terms like 'attempted murder'. Still making the same point. Steve/bboyminn From k.coble at comcast.net Fri Jun 3 06:57:37 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 01:57:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bad Ass Lupin (was:Re: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a974782e19a87c889131e0c230bf9cc@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129959 On Jun 2, 2005, at 10:26 PM, M.Clifford wrote: > > > >>Jen: > > >Jen, still laughing at Betsy calling Lupin a bad ass and thinking > > maybe she'll upgrade her own view of Lupin to a bad-ass huggybunny.< > > > > Betsy Hp: > > > Valky: > Ooh Besty I like Badass Lupin! > BTW Betsy, IMO Lupin will NEVER be proven ESE, however I highly > respect and admire the case Pippin has made for it. I like BadAss > Lupin much more for numerous reasons. Like, for example, he'd have to > be relatively tough after going through his life of torture, and he > handles a bunch of rowdy teenagers with fussless perfection yep I > think so, it fits. > K: I confess. Lupin is one of the 3 literary characters upon whom I've developed a slight crush over the years (Sherlock and Charles Butler being the other two.) I so don't want him to be evil. Pippin has a well-reasoned case, but I've got my blinders on. I like Betsy's theory, if only because it is my read on the character and it is why he's the one I'm fondest of. I'd like to be Ron's mom or kindly aunt, but I have a special fondness for Lupin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wherr009 at umn.edu Fri Jun 3 00:38:18 2005 From: wherr009 at umn.edu (wherr009) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:38:18 -0000 Subject: About Lupin's boggart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Many people have asked why there should be any doubt > about the identity of Lupin's boggart. > > I would consider it solved, except that in OOP it's still being > called a silvery orb > --- snip: wherr009 I can see where you are coming from with this, but my big question is; If the silvery orb is not the moon, then what is it? And further more what is it that would point to Lupin being ESE? From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 3 02:45:54 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:45:54 -0400 Subject: About Lupin's boggart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429FC462.3000704@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 129961 pippin_999 wrote: >Many people have asked why there should be any doubt >about the identity of Lupin's boggart. > >I would consider it solved, except that in OOP it's still being >called a silvery orb >--- >Lupin looked from Mrs. Weasley to the dead Harry on the >floor and seemed to understand in an instant. Pulling >out his own wand, he said, very firmly and clearly, >"Riddikulus!" > >Harry's body vanished. A silvery orb hung in the air over >the spot where it had lain. Lupin waved his wand once >more and the orb vanished in a puff of smoke.-- OOP ch 9 >---- This is only indirectly related, but this is actually something that's always bugged me about this scene... AFTER Lupin says "Riddikulus", the boggart turns into the moon/orb/whatever-it's-supposed-to-be, then vanishes. >From the canon of how boggarts work in the previous books, shouldn't the boggart have turned into an orb, THEN Lupin says "Riddikulus", THEN it turns into something funny (like Lupin's cockroach), THEN people laugh and they can capture it? Not only is it out of order (becoming the thing feared after the Riddikulus incantation) but it's incomplete; there's nothing funny, there's no laughter. He just 'waves his wand' and it vanishes. Is this just me? heather the buzzard From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 07:19:30 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:19:30 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129962 > Valky: > > Sirius does not think Sevvie was blameless, and apparently neither > did Dumbledore. > > > Alla: > > I don't know for sure what Dumbledore thinks of course, but I > believe that what you are saying IS a possibility, because I > always thought that " My memory is as good as ever" to be opened > to very wide interpretations. > > > > Valky: > > I based that on the fact that Sirius was not given a satisfactory > > punishment according to Snape. So it is fairly clear that > > Dumbledore doesn't agree with Snape about the level of > > responsibility each child had for the whole thing. > > > > ...edited... > > > > bboyminn: > > OK, so how was Sirius punished? Do you know? Of course you don't and > that is the whole point. You don't know so you can say with > certainty whether the punishment was fair or not. > Valky: Huh? :s Read again, it says that the punishment/discipline was not satisfactory **according to Snape**. Not me! Steve: > And since when does Snape get to decide what punishments are handed > out by the headmaster? Are you implying that 16 year old Snape knows > better and is more objective than the 130 year old headmaster of the > school? I think not. Valky: Not even nearly Steve, read again. I said that Dumbledore doesn't agree with Snape. So since DD is a fair person, theres HEAPS of reason to believe that Snape is just carrying on about it, hence Sirius wasn't trying to murder anyone. Hey BTW I am graduating my opinion to agree with Eric Oppens, Really good post Eric! Steve: > Snape is still holding a grudge in the matter, absolving > himself and placing full blame on Sirius, > Valky: Thats exactly what I said. Steve: > You are certainly free to speculate that Sirius tried to kill/murder > Snape, but there is no evidence of that fact. Valky: Hey! I was the one who said "tried" was too strong a word. I'm with Eric, and if I remember correctly, some months ago I posted a scenario that was like your reverse psychology scenario. I am not trying to claim first dibs but seriously Steve... *puts hands up*.... I am innocent see for yourself. From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 3 03:49:19 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: JKR interview in 2 weeks, send in your ?'s In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050603034919.78061.qmail@web80101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129963 Snapesangel said: -snip- *As regards portraits, do the wizards in them have true awareness, as if they were somehow still alive within the portrait if they were dead, for example, or is it a bit like an interactive simulation? *If someone is alive and has a portrait somewhere, can knowledge pass between the two, so that if portraitdumbledore! was watching something happen, realdumbledore! would know? *Does creating a portrait leave someting of the person behind in the way that becoming a ghost does? Now Chris: I thought this sounded kind of familiar. I checked on Quick Quotes and found this, it's from Edinburgh Book Festival, August 15, 2004: All the paintings we have seen at Hogwarts are of dead people. They seem to be living through their portraits. How is this so? If there was a painting of Harry?s parents, would he be able to obtain advice from them? That is a very good question. They are all of dead people; they are not as fully realised as ghosts, as you have probably noticed. The place where you see them really talk is in Dumbledore?s office, primarily; the idea is that the previous headmasters and headmistresses leave behind a faint imprint of themselves. They leave their aura, almost, in the office and they can give some counsel to the present occupant, but it is not like being a ghost. They repeat catchphrases, almost. The portrait of Sirius? mother is not a very 3D personality; she is not very fully realised. She repeats catchphrases that she had when she was alive. If Harry had a portrait of his parents it would not help him a great deal. If he could meet them as ghosts, that would be a much more meaningful interaction, but as Nick explained at the end of Phoenix?I am straying into dangerous territory, but I think you probably know what he explained?there are some people who would not come back as ghosts because they are unafraid, or less afraid, of death. It would be nice to talk to the people who have passed on and get real answers, but I guess it is not to be. Chris (flowerchild4) From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 3 07:27:55 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:27:55 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: <8f521bc14b053f9ff04d59b49916f673@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129964 > > There is a saying, I think a quote by one of the Saints, and it goes > > like this. "Love and do as you will." > > K: This is a saying from Wicca, actually. I doubt a Catholic Saint > would have said it. > Gerry: This is not a Wiccan saying. > > > This implies something of > > the "there is no good or evil only power" idea. > > > K: Again, you are trying to reconcile two diametrically opposed belief > systems....the pantheistic Wiccan belief of dualism with the Christian > belief of self-sacrificing love. I don't think it works. In Christianity you find the dualism: God and their Devil. In Wicca there is no dualism, the idea of evil is more like the Buddhist idea of not being awakened. Evil exist but there is no external bad force to tempt you. What there is in Wicca is polarity. The divine seen as God an Goddess, two connecting forces that make creation possible. The Wiccan crede you mean is An it harm none, do as you Will, which is an invitiation to live op to your highest expectations, be the best human being you can possibly be. Not your every day wishes, but to follow the guidance of your Soul. LV to me is typically somebody who missed it in a big way. His idea of 'only power' is the idea of somebody who cannot connect, because good and evil are ideas that assume relationships. Actually his position is the pinnacle of loneliness. I think it entirely possible that Love is the force in the DoM. Love in this sense is the binding factor of all religions. Gerry From magistera at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 04:43:41 2005 From: magistera at gmail.com (magistera_coi) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 04:43:41 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129965 > Alla: > Allow me to raise my earlier speculation about the fact > that Snape was studying the question about werewolves in > the pensieve scene AND the fact that he assigns the same > question for the essay AND the fact that dear Hermione, > bless her heart, figures it out perfectly. > > Do you think it is unreasonable to assume that Snape indeed > figured out that Remus is a werewolf before he went to the > tunnel? Mags: I just had to respond to this because I'm glad I'm not the only one who holds this theory (or at least considers it possible). I can't see any way, if Pensieves are accurate & the 'Worst Memory' occurred before the Prank, that Snape could *not* know what he was walking into, or at least have a pretty good idea. Which leads into all sorts of interesting wonderings: -What he was doing going down there anyway, in that case? -Did Sirius know Snape knew? -Is Snape's resentment of James' rescue exacerbated by the fact that from his point of view, he didn't need rescuing? -Mags From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 04:50:09 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 04:50:09 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129966 "festuco" wrote: > with the occlumency, where someone > HAS given him all the anwers, Huh? Harry is told it is very important to learn occlumency but he is never told exactly why, the lessons are extremely unpleasant and taught by someone he neither likes nor trusts, it's little wonder he doesn't work hard. Who would? Eggplant From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 05:00:32 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 05:00:32 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129967 "madorganization" wrote: > Yes, he has faced more than Ron or Hermione. Yes, Voldemort > is trying to kill him. These things are true and valid, > but since when do either of them make him more entitled to > information? To answer your question I'd say since human beings developed a basic sense of justice. More than any other person on the planet Harry has earned the right to know what's going on and what is trying to kill him and why. Harry has every right to be angry when this is denied him, especially when it caused the death of his Godfather. When Harry was wrecking Dumbledore's office I was cheering, I just wish he'd taked a swing at him. Eggplant From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 3 07:34:47 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:34:47 -0000 Subject: About Lupin's boggart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129968 > wherr009 wrote: > > I can see where you are coming from with this, but my big question is; > > If the silvery orb is not the moon, then what is it? And further more what is it that would > point to Lupin being ESE? Potioncat: As a fellow believer in the boggart-is-not-the-moon (I think we number at approximately two) I'll toss out some possibilities. And they wouldn't have to make Lupin ESE. (I believe in ESE!Lupin on alternate days.) It's a prophesy orb. It's the lights at St. Mungo's. It's a bubble of droobles best blowing gum. It's a cockroach egg. JKR may have used the bit of dialogue between Lupin and Hermione to tell us that the boggart was the moon. Just like the digalogue "part of a gang of Slytherins" told us Snape's House, but, except for that one time, it is never called a moon. Many readers think "orb" is a red herring, I think Lupin's calling it a moon is a red herrring. I also think there is a clue or a connection between the orb disolving into a cockroach and the jar of cockroaches that crashes over Harry's head. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 3 07:57:21 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:57:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "unicorn_72" wrote: > Sirius might say..."DOH." (ok..LOL probably not that) But I was > kinda thinking along the lines that, Sirius probably didn't put that > much though into what happened or what he was saying to Snape. He > might have just been mad that Snape followed him. > > Anyway, I hope this idea isan't something someone has already had, > it just seems like it might be close to what might have happened, > what do you guys think? It seems an extremely likely scenario to me. I also think that Sirius, because nothing really bad happened, thinks that Snape should get over it. Sirius does not seem to have much imagination for what might have been, or might happen. See also his disappointment in OoP when Harry does not want to take risks Sirius thinks are fun... Snape on the other hand, quite possibly has a vivid imagination, he realizes he truly could have died, or become even more an outcast than he already was. So we have on the one hand Sirius, who thinks it is high time that Snape stops whining, and cannot really see how wrong his actions were (I think deep down he knows but he would rather bite his tongue than give Snape this kind of satisfaction). And on the other hand Snape, who almost died and gets stuck in 'he wanted to murder me.' I also think Snape is convinced of this, because if he himself would have done such an action, he would have had a very clear intent of what he wanted the outcome to be. Snape is a very serious kind of person, whereas Sirius is much more happy-go-lucky, they are exactly opposite each other. I don't think they truly understand how the mindset of the other works, and I think that is one of the causes they have so many problems with each other. Gerry From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 08:29:43 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:29:43 -0000 Subject: Harry's entitlement - Long!(was Re: "Some won't like it".) In-Reply-To: <20050602211056.99444.qmail@web32710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129970 > Lynn: > > I'm curious to know why people feel Harry shouldn't feel entitled to know the information. After all, it directly affects him. He's the one Voldemort is after, who Voldemort wants dead. Yea, he's entitled to the information much more than Ron or Hermione. Ginger: I snipped the rest of the post, which was very good, but I just wanted to comment on this one point. People have been going back and forth on what Harry was entitled to and why or why not. Personally, I think he was entitled to answers, as much as people knew them, but at the right time. I am entitled to my paycheck. I got one tonight, covering last week and the week before, but not this week. I am entitled to my pay for this week, but I have to wait until the right time. I'm not going into accounting in the morning and saying "I put in a full week, and Joe was on vacation, and I had to train the temps and they wouldn't listen and I hit my head on the forklift so hard my ears plugged up and the computer acted up and the nutcase who knows everything was in my face and I WANT MY MONEY." None of this would be incorrect information on my part, and no one in accounting would doubt that I worked those hours, but I still wouldn't get the check. And it would probably be my last when it came. Harry ended the school year with horrible trauma. His lack of questioning everything under the circumstances is understandable. He was hurting to the point of being numb. It isn't I'm entitled!Harry that made me want to sit him down and give him a good talking to. It was Impatient!Harry. Ron and Hermione (and Sirius) sent him letters telling him straight out that they couldn't say anything in a letter, but that he would be with them soon. Not soon enough for Impatient!Harry. Then when he gets there, Arthur says that DD has changed his position and Harry will have to be filled in to a certain extent now that he's staying with the order. He is allowed to ask freely and is answered until he gets to asking what the weapon is. By this time, Harry has said outright that he will tell Ron and Hermione whatever the adults tell him, so they let the kids stay. This isn't about Harry alone any more. It is Order business. Which they are, by their membership, not allowed to divulge. Not just "we can't tell Harry" but "we can't tell all these kids". During Occlumency lessons, Snape tells Harry *exactly* why he needs the lessons. LV may be in his head. They suspected it, but only after Arthur was attacked did they know it. All good reason not to say anything in front of Harry that they didn't want LV to know. Harry has had visions that he *is* LV. The connection has been explained to him as well as they understand it. And he is still Impatient!Harry. In some cases, what they weren't telling Harry was information that they didn't know, or had only a vague guess about. In other cases, it was something they didn't want LV to know. The time was all wrong on that last count. So does this mean Harry was acting outside of what was rightfully due him? Not in my opinion. Harry not only wanted to know these things, he felt that for his own safety he needed to know them. I don't fault Harry on this. He was impatient (did I mention that? ;)) but he was not told why he couldn't be told until after Christmas. That is a long time to go with burning questions. The ideal solution, IMO, would have been to have someone go to the Dursley neighbourhood incognito, catch Harry as he was wandering around, and just tell him, "I know you have a ton of questions, but they will have to wait for your own personal safety. We can't tell you everything because we're still figuring it out. We'll keep you posted. Stay cool. You know you have to stay with these creeps for your protection, so hang tight. We'll send for you as soon as possible. We're working on it." If they had someone watching him, surely Tonks could have approached him. I think that was why Arabella was trying to get him over to tea. Finding out what was going on in his head wouldn't have been a bad plan either. A little counselling, talking about it. Works wonders. The long and short of it (too late for the short, I know) is that Harry had good reason to feel the way he did, and the Order had good reason to act as it did. There just needed to be a bridge (the Order's fault) and Harry needed to chill out (Harry's fault). Given Harry's recent trauma and the fact that he is still a teenager (and the major players in the Order have plenty of experience with teenagers), I'd say the Order could have handled the situation a lot better. Harry's impatience didn't help things at all. Hopefully, he will grow up and understand. So, am I sitting on the fence? Yup, with a big cushioning charm. Apply the usual "IMO" disclaimer to all of the above. Ginger, assuring heather the buzzard that she was kidding about Romulus Lupin. From k.coble at comcast.net Fri Jun 3 07:37:12 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 02:37:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129971 On Jun 3, 2005, at 2:27 AM, festuco wrote: > > > >? There is a saying, I think a quote by one of the Saints, and it > goes > > >? like this.? "Love and do as you will." > > > > K:? This is a saying from Wicca, actually.?? I doubt a Catholic > Saint > > would have said it. > > > Gerry: > This is not a Wiccan saying. > > > K: Okay, forgive me for going over my 3 post limit, but I am so wrong here. The OP was right. It was Augustine...... Sorry sorry sorry. As for the debate about the Christianity of Augustine, we can do that in another forum. ;-p [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 08:51:25 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:51:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > Steve: > > Snape is still holding a grudge in the matter, absolving > > himself and placing full blame on Sirius, > > > > Valky: > Thats exactly what I said. > > Steve: > > You are certainly free to speculate that Sirius tried to > > kill/murder Snape, but there is no evidence of that fact. > > > Valky: > Hey! I was the one who said "tried" was too strong a word. > ... I am not trying to claim first dibs but seriously Steve... * > puts hands up*.... I am innocent see for yourself. bboyminn: I already sent Valky an apology by email. The problem is I was using Valky's statements to make general points only I didn't make that clear and it logically seemed like I was attacking her statements. Definitly, my bad. On a general note, I want to take one more opportunity to re-enforce my general point which again is that we simply don't have enough information to make a judgement about these event, and I'm convinced that Snape is so biased we can't really take what he says as absolute truth. So, this is my additional point, while Snape was certainly in great danger, he was not exactly helpless. While we don't actually know, I think we can reasonably assume that Snape had his wand with him, so again, he's not exactly defenseless. Further, we are given reason to believe that Snape was a brilliant student, who knew plenty of curse, and a fair amount of Dark Magic. Conclusion; he was a competent, accomplished wizard with a wand, in danger, but not defenseless. However, at the same time that I say that, I have to fall back on our lack of information. We don't know what it takes to defend against a werewolf. Would a powerful Stunning Curse be enough, or would it just bounce of like it does with Hagrid? Are there special spells specifically for defending against a werewolf? We don't know. Without that knowledge, we know there was danger, but we can't really assess the level of danger. We don't know, and that is exactly the point I have been making, we don't know enough to assign DEGREES of blame, to know if the participant were treated and punished fairly, or by what method Snape was enticed to enter the tunnel, and I say again, we certainly don't have enough information to accuse Sirius of attempted murder; reckless-yes, negligent-yes, shortsighted-yes, foolhardy/stupid/thoughtless/inconsiderate/insensitive-yes, but murder-no. Simply not enough information. Steve/bboyminn From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Fri Jun 3 09:08:00 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:08:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050603090800.45057.qmail@web86206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129973 --- Steve wrote: > Conclusion; he was > a competent, > accomplished wizard with a wand, in danger, but not > defenseless. > But we do have some information in addition to that. Dumbledore, who is not exactly seeing the prank through Snape's eyes, seems to think that James had saved Snape's life. For that to happen, there had to be a realistic (or maybe even certain?) life threat. The Marauders (and their fans) can't have it both ways: if James gets the glory of life-saving, then Sirius must get the blame of putting that life into the danger. If there was no danger, there is no life-debt obligation to James. Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 09:46:59 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 02:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050603094700.53612.qmail@web32712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129974 eggplant107 wrote: festuco" wrote: > with the occlumency, where someone > HAS given him all the anwers, Huh? Harry is told it is very important to learn occlumency but he is never told exactly why, the lessons are extremely unpleasant and taught by someone he neither likes nor trusts, it's little wonder he doesn't work hard. Who would? Eggplant Lynn: In addition, he is being taught by someone who is delighting in humiliating him in the process. Oh yeah, I'd anxiously be awaiting each lesson. Can you hear the sarcasm there? Again, Harry is expected to be a good, little, obedient boy without any reason being given for it and is expected to handle it as a mature, wizened adult. The answer "Because its important" doesn't work with my 6 yo and people expect that to work for Harry? Heck, it's important to dress warmly, eat right, etc. but not doing so isn't generally life threatening. How many of us would put ourselves through that whole humiliating and uncomfortable experience without having a clue as to why except that it's important? Harry told Sirius his concerns and, while steps were taken, Harry had no way to know that the occlumency and his "visions" were related. Dumbledore has told Harry that Harry has shouldered the burdens of a grown wizard, Harry has done more than was expected, etc. and yet, Harry isn't being told why it is important that he does things. Add to everything Harry's natural curiousity. Dumbledore admits it was a mistake not to tell Harry that Voldemort would try to lure him to the Department of Mysteries. Had Harry known he would have been able to make the connection between that "door" and the occlumency. On a need to know basis, Harry needed to know. Did he have to know that whole truth? No, that would have been dangerous because then Voldemort would have had access to the prophesy. But how much would Harry's mind have been relieved had he been told that the reason Voldemort was after him was due to a prophesy, that Voldemort is trying to get to a copy of the prophesy and Harry will be told what the prophesy is after it is determined just how strong Voldemort is and whether Voldemort will be able to use the connection between himself and Harry to get to the prophesy. Harry knows about the connection between him and Voldemort, he would understand that. So, Harry has been given no information that Voldemort doesn't know and yet, the whole situation has been explained enough to give Harry credit for intelligence and still provide for his safety. test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Fri Jun 3 10:10:45 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 10:10:45 -0000 Subject: Lupin and the comical cockroach Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129975 Lupin transforms the full moon into a cockroach, but this is not necessarily because of any humorous potential in the insect. It's always been my impression that he chose a cockroach because they are universally despised, thought of as dirty, loathsome, unwelcome ... and as quickly as possible, trodden on with maximum malice. Does the List agree that this is how he feels about his werewolf status? And that his greatest wish would be to terminate it? Personifying ... no, reifying ... no, insectifying it as a roach seems to me to make perfect poetic, symbolic sense. Deborah, happy to stick up for Lupin, but he mustn't come to rely on it From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 3 10:26:42 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 10:26:42 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: <20050603094700.53612.qmail@web32712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > eggplant107 wrote: > > festuco" wrote: > > > with the occlumency, where someone > > HAS given him all the anwers, > > Huh? Harry is told it is very important to learn occlumency but he is never told exactly why, the lessons are extremely unpleasant and > taught by someone he neither likes nor trusts, it's little wonder he > doesn't work hard. Who would? > > Eggplant > > Lynn: > > In addition, he is being taught by someone who is delighting in humiliating him in the process. Oh yeah, I'd anxiously be awaiting each lesson. Can you hear the sarcasm there? > > Again, Harry is expected to be a good, little, obedient boy without any reason being given for it and is expected to handle it as a mature, wizened adult Gerry Please both of you read OoP p. 468-470 (Bloomsbury hardcover) for the first lesson and then explain te me why you think he is not told why he needs it, as Snape explains exactly why he does. Gerry From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Jun 3 10:26:42 2005 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 10:26:42 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129977 Alla:> Eloise: > > Sirius knew exactly what he was doing in tempting him to > follow a werewolf into an enclosed environment. > > > Alla: > > I'd like to say that we don't know yet whether Sirius knew exactly > what he was doing that night and what exactly Sirius was doing. > > Just me of course. Eloise: Fair enough. Though I'm hard pressed to see how one of the brightest students of the year *didn't* know what the probable results of encouraging someone to follow a werewolf into a dead end on transformation night wouldn't be pretty dire. I acknowledge that there's a logical flaw in my argument, since in fact, I think Sirius *didn't* think. If he *had* thought, then he would have realised the possible consequences for Lupin. That lack of thought, IMHO, is a result of his loathing for Snape, a loathing which led him to think it might be "amusing" to tempt him to follow Remus and a loathing which makes him continue to be unapologetic. > > > Steve/bboyminn: > Let me conclude by re-enforcing the point that no matter how much > guilt may belong to Snape, it doesn't absolve Sirius's action. > > Eloise: > No, it doesn't. What he did was utterly wrong, yet he shows no > regret, not even an acknowledgement that it was wrong, just > childishly tries to justify it like my kids might: > > "Don't hit your sister." > "But she was annoying me." > > > Alla: > > Doesn't it strike you as strange that Sirius after spending twelve > years in Azkaban reacts so violently at the first mention of Snape's > name. Granted, you can argue that Sirius is a vicious murderer, who > always wanted to kill Snape, but isn't it possible that this > reaction shows hatred which relies on something much more in depth > than the fact that Snape was spying on them? Eloise: I don't know what is the root cause of Sirius' enmity towards Snape, any more than I *know* what is at the root of the enmity between James and Snape. What I do know is that Lupin is part of the same group. Lupin, whom many regard as flawed (and I'd agree) is actually the one who acknowledges that the "Prank" nearly killed Snape and that it involved him. He shows none of Sirius' animosity towards Snape, despite the fact that his nosiness could have ended up with Lupin's expulsion (or death? What is the WW penalty for a captured werewolf who has killed?) He also shows no hostility towards Sirius over the incident. I'm prepared to cut Sirius some slack (plenty of slack) for being unbalanced after twelve years in Azkaban. But he did something that was foolhardy, dangerous and wrong, however "innocent" his intentions at the time. I maintain that, as with my children, his justification of his actions represents an unspoken acknowledgement of that fact combined with an unwillingness to lose face by admitting it. Alla: > For twelve years Dementors were eating up Sirius' happy thoughts. If > his reactions about Snape were left intact, isn't it possible that > something VERY unhappy connects those two? Eloise: Possibly. Though I doubt he had any happy thoughts about Snape anyway. Except for remembering how he'd tempted him into the tunnel of course. ;-) I'm not commenting on what fuelled their animosity. I just find it regrettable that Sirius is unable to admit that he did something which could have had such dangerous consequences. It shows strength, not weakness to acknowledge that you've made a mistake. Of course, I wouldn't alter anything. In fact one of my great disappointments of OoP was that we didn't see more Sirius-Snape interaction. But it's still one of the reasons that I find it difficult to like Sirius. Eloise: > > And in this case, the "Prank" was > designed with malice aforethought, even if Sirius hadn't thought the > implications through completely. > > Alla: > > I don't think we know yet for sure that Prank was designed with > malice aforethought. I may be wrong of course. Eloise: Could you suggest an innocent "amusing" reason for tempting Snape into the tunnel? > Steve/bboyminn: > > In simpliest terms, there is a difference between throwing someone > into a dean of wolves, and simply telling him where the dean is. > > That's all I'm trying to say. > > > Eloise: > > If you *know* that the person will enter the den, then morally, > > there's no difference at all, IMHO. > > Alla: > > Oh, I disagree with you, Eloise and I agree with Steve. Simple > hypothetical. Eloise: If I did that to you, knowing that you couldn't resist the bait, then yes, I believe I would bear the lion's share of the responsibility and all the *culpability*. Taking advantage of another's weakness is never pretty. I guess my bottom line is that I have the right to do something foolish with my own life (and yes, that's my responsibility) but I don't have the right to encourage someone else to do something foolish with theirs. Surely it is *wrong* to do something for our own amusement that any reasonable person could see had a strong likelihood of harming another. I never said that Snape wasn't foolish for falling for the bait. But we have *no* reason whatsoever to believe that Sirius suggested to Snape that he would be entering a dangerous situation. Yes, Snape should have been able to work it out for himself (although he could reasonably have expected that a werewolf might have been somewhat more restrained, caged perhaps) and that's where the inconsistency lies. Actually (sorry) I blame JKR. ;-) I'm stepping back for a minute to look a this as a piece of writing. I think it's incredibly hard to set up this kind of thing without some inconsistencies creeping in. Sirius trying to feed Snape to a werewolf is the counterpoint to (and the ostensible reason for) Snape wanting to feed Sirius to the Dementors. The snooping around after MWWP is the superficial reason we are given for the initial resentment between them (which I quite agree might have a deeper cause). Unfortunately, the snooping around *ought* to have alerted Snape to what he might face. It's compounded in OoP by having Snape reading about werewolves, a detail surely meant to remind us of the snooping, the resentment, but inconsistent with his decision to enter the tunnel. But then, books in general are full of these sorts of things. In this series, how is it *possible* that Harry both asks and confides so little? A good thing it is, too, or there's be no plot at all to speak of if he did what any sensible boy should do and tell the greatest wizard of the age whenever he had a suspicion that something was wrong instead of going it alone. These books are scrutinised to a degree that no author ought to have to put up with, every little inconsistency is found and we desperately try to find internal justifications for them, justifications which I believe will sometimes be elusive. In this case, I think we have details given as an aid to characterisation slightly clashing with the plot. > > > > Valky: > > Sirius does not think Sevvie was blameless, and apparently neither > did Dumbledore. > > Alla: > > I don't know for sure what Dumbledore thinks of course, but I > believe that what you are saying IS a possibility, because I always > thought that " My memory is as good as ever" to be opened to very > wide interpretations. Eloise: Snape was breaking school rules and I'm sure he was punished, just as Draco was in similar circumstances. As, I presume, were Sirius and James. If they weren't, then Snape had good cause for resentment. Alla: > One more thing - we all know JKR's answer on her website to the > question " Do you like Sirius Black?", where she lists his positive > and negative qualities. > > I am not going to quote the whole answer again, but just one > sentence. > > "Sirius is brave, loyal, reckless, embittered and slightly > unbalanced by his long stay in Azkaban." > > The word which I am looking at here is loyal. If loyalty is one of > Sirius' determining qualities, isn't it possible that he did not > actually betray Remus or at least was not planning consciously to > betray Remus and again, maybe there is something about Prank we are > not privy to yet. Eloise: I don't think for one minute he *planned* to betray Remus (if by that you are referring to the possible consequences of the "Prank"). What I think is that blind hatred and that recklessness which is another of the determining characteristics mentioned above led him to do something which Lupin would be equally justified on resenting. Only Lupin doesn't. Alla: > Please forgive me for talking like a Parrot. :-) Eloise: Ditto. ~Eloise From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 3 11:24:17 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:24:17 -0000 Subject: JIgsaw Puzzle (was Re: Sirius and Prank again? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129978 Potioncat here, not responding to one particular post, but to the thread. What we have here is a failure to communicate...oops, wrong movie, and I never saw it anyway. What we have here is a jigsaw puzzle. The pieces are scattered on the table and came from a brown box labeled "The Prank". We're all standing around trying to put the blooming thing together. But there are several problems: Well, for one, we like to argue. We don't know what the finished picture will look like. We have an idea, but we don't agree to the details. We don't even agree on how big it is. We know pieces are missing, but we aren't sure how many. We think we know which pieces it is, but we aren't sure of the shape or how they actually fit. We think some of the pieces are in boxes labeled "The Pensieve Incident" or "The Shrieking Shack" and more but again we aren't sure, nor do we agree on how they fit. Some of us think there are extra pieces in our box that don't really belong. So some of us want to toss them out or at least take them off the table. Then of course, every now and then, a few pieces fall to the floor and we struggle along without them until another person points them out. Some of us have made pieces out of construction paper and glue. They're pretty good actually and they fit, sort of. But we've had them so long and used them so often, that we've forgotten they aren't part of the original contents of the box and might not be true to the picture. It's a heck of a way to spend a rainy afternoon! With any luck, we'll find more pieces in a very big box labeled, HBP. But I'm sort of hoping not all the pieces are in there either. Potioncat (sleep deprived, so please overlook the excessive errors.) From Lynx412 at AOL.com Fri Jun 3 12:16:06 2005 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:16:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] My own take on the infamous Prank Message-ID: <1fe.2e3c83f.2fd1a406@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129979 In a message dated 6/3/2005 1:12:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, oppen at mycns.net writes: > I could see myself > inducing this PITA to try to ride a very dangerous buckin' bronco, > thinking, (subconsciously) that "of course he won't be hurt. After > all, I can do this perfectly easily. He _will_ get the scare of his > life, though...and won't it serve him right?" Although I may have no > intention of actually murdering my enemy, he could well die, just > because I was so used to this that it didn't occur to me that _he_ > might well not be as well-equipped to deal with it as I am. This does fit with Sirius' rather rash and careless personality as we know it, as well. It would also explain James' rush to rescue Snape. James, more conscious of the possibilities, including that the Marauders might be broken up and Lupin expelled if Snape learned the truth or perhaps just more concerned about how Lupin might feel, jumped in to stop him. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 12:42:59 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 05:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050603124259.39361.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129980 --- Steve wrote: > Snape made a conscious choice to do something that is both wrong > and logically dangerous. He chose to put himself in harms way. Let > me conclude by re-enforcing the point that no matter how much guilt > may belong to Snape, it doesn't absolve Sirius's action. Well, that's not entirely true. There's no indication from canon that Snape knew he was putting himself in harm's way. And without that little bit of knowledge, then I think Sirius' telling him how to access the tree is pretty bad. One thing I wonder: what if Snape thought that Sirius told him about accessing the tree because he thought Sirius wanted to be friends? Might explain why Snape went seriously mental on Harry when Harry poked his head into the pensieve ("Why am I so stupid as to trust Marauders AGAIN????"). Dumbledore's comment to Harry about Snape-James being like Harry-Draco would also take on new meaning as I really believe that as much as he goes after Harry so much Draco very much wants to be Harry's friend (as much as Draco understands the word). Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 12:47:19 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 12:47:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in ... In-Reply-To: <20050603090800.45057.qmail@web86206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129981 Irene: But we do have some information in addition to that. Dumbledore, who is not exactly seeing the prank through Snape's eyes, seems to think that James had saved Snape's life. For that to happen, there had to be a realistic (or maybe even certain?) life threat. The Marauders (and their fans) can't have it both ways: if James gets the glory of life-saving, then Sirius must get the blame of putting that life into the danger. If there was no danger, there is no life-debt obligation to James. Alla: I don't see why we cannot have it both ways, actually. I cannot speak for anybody else, but I am not arguing that Snape's life was not in danger when he got to the Shack ( although surprise revelations are a possibility, IMO). What I am arguing is that we don't know how and why Snape went there in the first place and as Steve eloquently put it, there are scenarious when Snape gets to share a blame for going there in the first place. So, James saves his life, which he partially put in danger himself. :-) Just speculating of course. :-) But since I consider Prank to be almost complete mystery, I am not completely opposed to another speculation - there was another incident when James saved Snape's life, which we are not aware of yet. I don't remember who raised it. Although I admit that I don't find it to be very likely. Oooo, how about that - Snape is a vampire, and Sirius figures it out and knows that vampires can fight werewolfes and decides to organise boxing match between them to make Snape part of the group. :-) ( Just kidding) Potioncat: What we have here is a jigsaw puzzle. The pieces are scattered on the table and came from a brown box labeled "The Prank". We're all standing around trying to put the blooming thing together. But there are several problems... Alla: LOL! That was a very eloquent summary of our discussions. :-) JMO Alla. From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 12:50:56 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 12:50:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129982 "festuco" wrote: Snape is a very serious kind of person, > whereas Sirius is much more happy-go-lucky, they are exactly opposite > each other. I don't think they truly understand how the mindset of the > other works, and I think that is one of the causes they have so many > problems with each other. > > Gerry KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Yes, I have also been thinking along the same lines. I am reminded of a comment that was made by I believe Lupin, or it might have been Sirius, but it was said Snape was jealous of James because of his skill on the Quidditch field. I would like to consider that in playing Quidditch one does not always think far ahead, one needs to have split second thinking, or for a lack of a better though, be able to not think and just act quickly. Also, to fight against the Dark Arts, one has to be--for lack of a better words--quick on your feet. Now, I have no doubt that Snape can be quick, swift, curt, exactly...whatever word you like to use when you describe his thinking and quick snarky comebacks to adults and students. But I also think that he may be a person that plans out things to a T. He could be someone who considers things with a serious mind and delves deeply into things, so he might not be quick to act on certain things, but consider ways to work things to his advantage. So, he is obviously someone who is obsessed about thing that happen to him in his youth, this makes me think he is a person that goes over events again and again to try and rework them or find mistakes. Lots of times when we are imbarrised or hurt, we try to re play the event in our mind to see what we could have done differently, to change the outcome in our favor. So, it may be that Snape believe's in his own mind Sirius tried to kill him, but, it might also be a case for Snape being angry at himself, for being fooled by Sirius and shamed by the events that happened. I have a cousin who insists on taking things apart, just to see how they work, like buying a new playstation and taking it apart, just too see how its put together. I fathom Snape as being someone who has to know everything about everything, but don't expect him to give you anything of himself, because, he considers knowledge about a person or a thing power, and the last thing he wants is people to have power over him. I also believe that perhaps this is a case for how he acts with students. I'm thinking he is the kind of person that will snark at you just to see you loose your temper, he is forcing you by words, and seeing how far he can push you, because this gives him power over you when you break down and get sucked into his game. Generally not always a good thing depending on the person....and I am not trying to give Snape any slack on how he treats Harry and Neville or any other child, just a general though on how the Snarky Snape mind might work. Sirius on the other hand is one who just wants to have fun, the reble without a cause (laughs) He knows all the lines of pureblood glory, he has lived in it since he was born. He is obviously sick of all the highbrowed royal pureblood attitude. He's a teenager he wants to have fun, and be normal. So, here we have someone named Sirius who takes nothing serious, and we have Severus who takes things too seriously....If I didn't know better, I'd almost say their family...perhaps cousins??? I don't know why I keep thinking that somehow they are cousins. I just keep getting the feeling that James, Sirius and Severus may have known each other before school, or at least two out of the three...meh...anyway. KarentheUnicorn From lhuntley at fandm.edu Fri Jun 3 03:28:22 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:28:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6767d0023e559f279563bb10c2d2eb90@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 129983 Alisha: > What I didn't like about him was his feeling of entitlement. I suspect that you and I read a number of passages in entirely different lights. I never once thought Harry felt "entitled" to things -- that is, he certainly felt he had the right to know certain things (which he does), and perhaps a greater right than some other people (again, true), but IMO he never felt entitled in the sense of "I'm the great Harry Potter, and I should know all things." His attitude, again IMO, was more of the "there are maniacs out there trying to kill me, I have very good reason to believe one of them has become immeasurably more powerful of late, and no one will tell me *anything*. Also, I have gone through/am going through some pretty horrible things and not only will no one explain these things to me, but they all seem to have forgotten that they even happened. " > I don't have my book with me as I'm at work right now, but I got the > feeling that most of Harry's moodiness stemmed from his attitude > of "I'm Harry Potter! I deserve to know these things!" Again, I think it was more like "I've nearly been murdered at least six times in the past four years! The Dark Lord who is bent on my destruction has recently been re-embodied! I deserve to know what's going on because my life is at stake! Furthermore, I think I've proved myself capable of handling knowledge and danger, especially as these things always seem so find me whether the adults around me intend it or not." Honestly, I don't see how the adults in Harry's life get off on trying to protect him by shielding him from the very things that he could use to *defend* himself. Because, with astonishing regularity, Harry *does* have to defend himself on his own. > My second favorite part of the book (after McGonagall's awesomeness > in "Careers Advice") was when Phineas Nigellus finally told Harry > off. Well . . . I hate to ruin it for you, but what Phineas actually says is: Ootp, Am. Ed., pg. 496: *** "[. . .] Have you never paused, while feeling hard-done-by, to note that following Dumbledore's orders has never yet led you into harm?" *** Er . . . well, YEAH. First, Dumbledore, very, very rarely gives Harry direct orders. As we all know, communication is not his strong point. It's hard to give orders to someone you have very little actual contact with. Therefore, I will consider all of the times when Dumbledore's actions and misjudgments have cause harm to come to Harry. Dumbledore sent Harry to the Dursley's, didn't he? That certainly led to harm, from Harry's perspective. Dumbledore has allowed Snape's behavior against Harry to continue for five years at this point. Dumbledore put Harry in the care of Quirrell and Lockhart, who both tried to permanently harm Harry. Dumbledore also put Harry in the care of Fake!Moody, who, as we all know, was plotting to have Harry killed. Dumbledore continues to send Harry back to Privet Drive without so much as a warning of potential danger, and in OotP Harry gets attacked by dementors. Dumbledore withholds important information from Harry, and this -- time and time again -- causes him to endure physical and/or emotional hardship. I really could go on, but I think you get the picture. Therefore, I think it's a bit rich of Phineas to suggest that Harry trust Dumbledore's judgment without question. *Especially* as Dumbledore has been playing it even closer to the chest than normal. Furthermore, if you go back and read the entirely passage, you will see that Harry is *happy* when Phineas first says he has a message from Dumbledore. He's not even upset with the order to stay at Grimmauld Place. What Harry reacts negatively to is that the entirety of that message is "Stay where you are." No explanation, no reassurances, nothing. As was the case with the dementor attack on Privet Drive, no one is going to tell Harry anything, despite the fact that he knows and we know full well that being ignorant isn't going to save him from another life-threatening experience. > Yes, Harry is special. Yes, he's the only one to have gone through > what he's gone through. What he's gone through . . . but also what he's *going* to have to go through. Harry is under no illusions about Voldemort's intentions regarding him (even before the revelation of the prophecy). He *knows* something bad is going to happen to him. He fully realizes that someone, somewhere is plotting to do him harm. And he also has *excellent* reason to believe that the adults are incapable of shielding him from this harm. I understand his frustration. It's like he's a fighter -- one who's proven himself time and again -- being blindfolded and handcuffed and told to sit quietly while several gunmen try to shoot at him and silly people with pieces of tinfoil run about trying to deflect the bullets. His external defenses have been *proved* inadequate, and despite the fact that he has shown some ability to defend *himself*, he is deprived of the necessary tools to do so. Yeah, I'd be angry too. > Yes, he did apologize when Ginny called him > on his idiocy. I don't think he was being an idiot -- he was sleep-deprived, had just gone through severe emotional turmoil, and had just heard a number of people who *do* know what's going on discuss the possibility that he has been possessed. Moreover, he has excellent reason to believe this might be the case -- what with the dream and the feeling he got when he looked at Dumbledore. I think he had a lot of good evidence to believe Moody's interpretation of the events, and if he forgot a little bit of negative evidence that occured three years ago in a completely unrelated case -- well, I can forgive him. Furthermore, this might not have any bearing on this particular argument, but Ginny was wrong, BTW. Whether it was because she hadn't really been possessed by a real person, or because she was actually possessed by Tom Riddle and NOT Voldemort -- her experience of possession was completely different than what Harry himself experiences at the end of OotP. Actually, if Harry had thought to remember back to the only *other* person he has known to be possessed by Voldy, he might have been able to determine the invalidity of Ginny's argument. Quirrel, for instance, did not experience memory loss along with his possession, the way Ginny says she did. I think it was actually Hermione's reasoning and Ron's testament to the fact that Harry never left his bed that were the best arguments for why Harry, had not, in fact, been possessed. On the other hand, if Moody -- who probably has more experience with the different ways people can be possessed -- could still believe that Harry may have been possessed . . . well then, I think there probably *was* a possibility that he could have been possesed, no matter what Ginny, Hermione, or Ron think or say. > The thing that upset me most about Harry was that, > after four years of cringing when people looked at his scar and > wishing that people would stop gawking at him in the corridors and > putting his name in the paper, he suddenly decides to play the fame > card. I really don't think he's playing the "fame card" at ALL. I'm a bit baffled as to how you could have this reading, actually, but . . . well, I don't know how to argue against this (other than what I have already said), without sounding like I think my reading is intrinsically better than yours. All I can say is -- after four years of *not* playing the fame card, why would he suddenly start now? I don't have time to try to find specific references, but I don't think he's any more pleased than he has ever been when his fellow students treat him differently because he's "Harry Potter". Even when he's thinking about why he should have gotten the prefect position over Ron, he doesn't think about his fame -- he thinks about the things he's actually *done*, on his own. And, I might add, he doubts himself. Despite the fact that his reasoning *is* correct (and Dumbledore confirms this in The Lost Prophecy), he still can't quite accept it. (Also, on a side note, when Ron and Hermione get all, "Oh, you silly boy, of *course* you can teach DADA -- look at all things you've done!" he gets very defensive and argues *aganist* them. He doesn't think he's particularly strong or clever or anything.) > I know he's been through a lot in the few months before we > see him in book 5, but I don't see that this particular attitude > change was well constructed. Anger in this situation is natural, > his sudden embrace of "Harry Potter-ness" is not. *shrugs* If that's your reading, I'm sure there's little I can say to change it (I know I have a very hard time accepting other people's POV on certain events -- ESE!Lupin, for example), but I thought I'd give it a go, anyway. ^_~ Laura http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 14:24:45 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:24:45 -0000 Subject: Lupin and the comical cockroach In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129984 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > Lupin transforms the full moon into a cockroach, but this is not > necessarily because of any humorous potential in the insect. It's > always been my impression that he chose a cockroach because they are > universally despised, thought of as dirty, loathsome, unwelcome ... > and as quickly as possible, trodden on with maximum malice. > > Does the List agree that this is how he feels about his werewolf > status? And that his greatest wish would be to terminate it? Not to mention that while the moon is up in the sky, untouchable ['To permanently alter the face of the moon' was a scavenger hunt Impossible Item when I played a few years ago], a cockroach can be so easily and gratifyingly smushed under foot. There's something inherently ridiculous about turning a massive piece of rock into a cockroach, and that fits very well with the spell, doesn't it? -Nora generally bets against ESE!Lupin but still wants listie bets about Draco's fate to be sent to her From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 14:34:35 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:34:35 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in ... In-Reply-To: <20050603090800.45057.qmail@web86206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene Mikhlin wrote: > The Marauders (and their fans) can't have it both ways: if James gets > the glory of life-saving, then Sirius must get the blame of putting > that life into the danger. If there was no danger, there is no life- > debt obligation to James. Actually, that's something of a non sequitur as you have an unproved/able assumption about intentionality folded in. I don't think anyone is generally arguing that Snape's life wasn't probably in danger. But what is rather unclear is whether Sirius *intended* to explicitly 'put Snape's life in danger' or not. Snape did get himself over there, after all, which means even from a strict causal perspective (which isn't my favorite POV for dealing with the Potterverse) he shares some of the causality. I deeply subscribe to the belief that the intentions behind actions are very, very important in the fictional world of the Potterverse, which is why I think it's important to not just focus on results--as if that were clear either. Potioncat's puzzle pieces analogy is really delightful for thinking about this incident. My conclusion is that it really is a case of not enough information, and the complete unreliability of our own puzzle pieces that we've created to fill in the blanks. Given the present information *and* the knowledge that we're missing things, this incident could end up as any of a number of mutually exclusive possibilities. There's one answer that's right, but it probably hinges on things that we just don't know yet. I can't make it make sense to myself. Given the small snapshot of climate we have, I find Madga's idea that Snape thought Sirius wanted to be friends to be a little hard to reconcile with Snape's general character--although I don't know enough to be sure. Nobody has made good sense of the basic objective mechanics of the thing--and we have a very deliberate authorial choice to muddy the waters of motivation. Sneaky, she is. I hope it ends up being something really unobvious. -Nora gets back to getting back on track From lhuntley at fandm.edu Fri Jun 3 14:49:07 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 10:49:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16232707f4238c3354c6be8e2b17a514@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 129986 A_svirn: > I'd say that the fact that he was "young and troubled" doesn't > diminish the potential wickedness of his intentions in the least. > Would he be more likely to contemplate murder if he were mature and > happy? I don't think so somehow. As for not properly realising > consequences it's ... well, let's say I just don't buy it. So . . . you think the Prank was an intentional, out-and-out attempted murder on Sirius's part? You think it was actually his intention to get Snape killed? Somehow, I don't think so. JKR *loves* Sirius. She admits he has many flaws, but, ultimately, she thinks well of him. She cried when he died. Do you really think she would admire his character if he were, in fact, capable of murder at 16? > How dim > should he has been not to know exactly what is more likely to happen > if his classmate were to walk into a transformed werewolf? Well, how dim do you have to be to let your guard down in order to mock a deadly adversary in the middle of a small, yet intense, battle? Honestly. I think JKR has shown that Sirius's biggest flaw -- in fact, his *fatal* flaw -- is his inability to think things through and to act rashly. He's bright, yes, in the sense that he can do well at school and preform advance magic at a young age, but that does not necessarily mean he's any good at considering the consequences of his actions. In a way, Sirius is the consummate Gryfinndor -- he has all of the best qualities of the house (bravery, loyalty, etc.) combined with all of the very worst (rashness, bravado, recklessness etc.). Laura From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 15:09:15 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:09:15 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Message 129952 Eggplant: > Well the fact is, Harry has done more to defeat Voldemort than > Ron or Hermione or Dumbledore for that matter, and he has suffered far more than they have because of it "K": Since we actually know so very little of the life of Dumbledore how can we say Harry has done more to defeat Voldemort and has suffered far more? As of now we don't know that to be true. Sounds like wishful thinking. ;-) A desire for Harry to be the one and only great hero. As for the "some won't like it" comment, I believe that covers a wide range of topics. If you are a Ron/Hermione shipper, some might not like HBP. If you are a Snape fan, you might not like HBP. We all have our own pet theories and we all want the books to go in a certain direction and if that doesn't happen some won't like it. That's all. The author is just going to stay true to her story, as it should be. "K" From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 3 15:49:38 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:49:38 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > > No, we won't all get diabetes because it's real, Eggplant > That may well be true but the question is will it make a good story? > To be blunt Harry Potter needs more gratuitous violence, like the > wonderful graveyard scene in book 4. I don't want the series to end in > a love fest, I want it to end in a bloodbath. I don't want Voldemort > to be loved to death in book 7, I want him to be disemboweled. Geoff: The series doesn't have to end in a lovefest or with gratuitous violence which I always see as a copout anyway. I do not believe that the books will not end with a saccharin-riding-off-into-the-sunset-with- swelling-music end. Real "agape" love shows itself in other ways. As examples within the Potterverse, we see Lily standing between Harry and Voldemort regardless of her own safety; we see Harry, Hermione and Ron looking out for each other in the "Philosopher's Stone" and Ron risking injury or death in the chess game; we see Harry risking injury or death in the "Goblet of Fire" to accede to Cedric's last wish. In "Lord of the Rings" we see Sam and Frodo watching each other's backs and Sam in particular supporting Frodo at the end to get him to Mount Doom, each knowing that they risk injury or death. And in the real world, we have examples such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of the leaders of the German Confessing Church who was in Canada in 1939 when war broke out and oinsisted on returning home to support his fellow believers in the hell of Nazi Germany and sailed on the last ship back knowing that he was risking his life in so doing and who was executed in 1945, one month before the Nazi surrender and the numberless nameless folk who in war situations have risked their won safety to rescue and support their fellows. There are plenty of ways in which love can play a major part in the Wizarding World without Harry going up to Voldemort and kissing him so that he runs from the scene in case anyone sees him blushing..... From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Fri Jun 3 16:38:18 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:38:18 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129989 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > I can't make it make sense to myself. Given the small snapshot of > climate we have, I find Madga's idea that Snape thought Sirius wanted > to be friends to be a little hard to reconcile with Snape's general > character--although I don't know enough to be sure. Nobody has made > good sense of the basic objective mechanics of the thing--and we have a > very deliberate authorial choice to muddy the waters of motivation. > > Sneaky, she is. I hope it ends up being something really unobvious. I've always believed that Sirius told Snape that they were going to finally settle things once and for all. Sirius and Snape would meet for a no holds barred duel, something strongly frowned upon at the school and worthy of expulsion. By Snape going to the Shack for the duel, he placed some wrong doing in his own corner. Dumbledore couldn't expel the Marauders unless he also expelled Snape for his own actions. That would also explain Dumbledore's statement that his memory was as good as it ever was. Casey From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 17:14:46 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050603171446.96025.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129990 --- nrenka wrote: > But what is rather unclear is whether Sirius *intended* to > explicitly 'put Snape's life in danger' or not. Snape did get > himself > over there, after all, which means even from a strict causal > perspective (which isn't my favorite POV for dealing with the > Potterverse) he shares some of the causality. I think it's quite clear that Sirius didn't intend to put Snape's life in danger; had that been the case, Dumbledore would have kicked his padfooted butt so far over the astronomy tower that he wouldn't have touched down before he'd reached Derbyshire. Dumbledore takes a very dim view of physical abuse; no apologies would have covered it. I will also give Sirius the benefit of the doubt that if he'd intended to harm or kill Snape, then he'd have paused for at least a second and realized that it would be Lupin who'd cause the harm or death. And the only way I can reconcile Sirius' use of Lupin in the prank is if in fact he only meant for Snape to get a good scare. On the other hand, there's also the little matter of thinking ahead and considering the law of unintended consequences - which seems to have been something that James had no trouble working out - Sirius should have considered that something could go badly wrong. I've always thought it was a good thing that JKR makes it clear in the text that Sirius was considered to be a really bright student; sort of makes up for the fact that he's responsible for some pretty stupid actions. > Nora: > I can't make it make sense to myself. Given the small snapshot of > climate we have, I find Madga's idea that Snape thought Sirius > wanted > to be friends to be a little hard to reconcile with Snape's general > character--although I don't know enough to be sure. Snape is a desperately lonely individual who's frightened of intimacy and friendship at the same time that he craves them. Nothing I've seen of Snape shows me someone who's comfortable around people or who knows how to act in a social setting or who knows how to make friends. A young, insecure, teenager like this could fall for an offer of comradeship that seemed to be sincere. Magda __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 17:19:02 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050603171902.23417.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129991 --- eggplant107 wrote: > Huh? Harry is told it is very important to learn occlumency but he > is never told exactly why, the lessons are extremely unpleasant and > taught by someone he neither likes nor trusts, it's little wonder > he doesn't work hard. Who would? We have had this debate a few months ago but if you go back to the chapter with the first occlumency lesson, Snape explains why Harry has to learn occlumency and Harry's questions make it clear that he does understand the importance. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kristyne60 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 13:56:55 2005 From: kristyne60 at yahoo.com (Wynterr) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: <1117798498.629.67103.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050603135656.60347.qmail@web51007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129992 > Tonks: > like this. "Love and do as you will." > > K: This is a saying from Wicca, actually. Actually the saying from Wicca is, "if it harms none, do what thou will. A lot can be taken from that one saying and used in all different forms. WynterOwl Smile, it makes people wonder what you've been up to... An ye harm none, do as you will From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jun 3 20:04:27 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:04:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: About Lupin's boggart Message-ID: <1eb.3c4d594e.2fd211cb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129993 In a message dated 6/3/2005 2:37:39 AM Central Standard Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: Just like the digalogue "part of a gang of Slytherins" told us Snape's House, but, except for that one time, it is never called a moon. Many readers think "orb" is a red herring, I think Lupin's calling it a moon is a red herrring Ok I *know* that this is movie contamination. . please forgive me .. but if that silvery orb were supposed to be anything other than the moon (especially if it was supposed to be a clue to something else) I think that JKR would have told Cuaron and Kloves that it shouldn't be shown as the moon. We know that she told Cuaron he couldn't put a graveyard where the sundial was in POA (the movie) because the Hogwart's cemetary was in another place. I think that she would have corrected this as well. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lebiles at charter.net Fri Jun 3 20:13:53 2005 From: lebiles at charter.net (leb2323) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:13:53 -0000 Subject: scary MoM possibility Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129994 Reading all of these book 6 predictions has made my brain spin in some unpleasant directions. One of my predictions was that Umbridge would get credit for the inordinately high pass rate for DADA owls which was really because of Harry's tutoring in the DA. But, to take that a step further . . . What if Umbridge is made the new MoM because the ministry is looking for someone strong in DADA and they mistakenly think her the expert? Just gives you the shivers thinking about it. Does anyone else think this may be a possibility? leb From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Fri Jun 3 20:16:17 2005 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:16:17 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eloise_herisson" wrote: Eloise: much more in depth >Lupin shows none of Sirius' animosity towards Snape, > despite the fact that his nosiness could have ended up with Lupin's > expulsion (or death? What is the WW penalty for a captured werewolf > who has killed?) He also shows no hostility towards Sirius over the > incident. Renee: Death, I'd say. If you ask me, it's no coincidence that we get to hear the story of the prank in the same book that sees Buckbeak fall foul of the Committee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures. If a hippogryff fan be sentenced to death for inflicting a minor injury, what chance would a werewolf have to escape the axe, once he has killed? From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 20:51:29 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:51:29 -0000 Subject: JKR and Inconsistency (was:Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129996 >>Eloise: >Actually (sorry) I blame JKR. ;-) I'm stepping back for a minute to look a this as a piece of writing. >I think it's incredibly hard to set up this kind of thing without some inconsistencies creeping in. Sirius trying to feed Snape to a werewolf is the counterpoint to (and the ostensible reason for) Snape wanting to feed Sirius to the Dementors.< Betsy Hp: Except that's not the sole reason Snape wants to feed Sirius to the dementors. It's not pure tit for tat. Snape believes that Sirius betrayed James and Lily, murdered Peter and the muggles, and came to Hogwarts for the sole purpose of murdering Harry. As far as Snape is concerned Sirius is continuing down a path he started way back in school. Yes, Snape is thrilled to finally see Sirius get his, but he's also convinced that Sirius is guilty of the crimes he's been accused of. (Keep in mind that Lupin is quite prepared to kill Peter then and there for those exact same crimes. And Peter is protesting too.) >>Eloise: >The snooping around after MWWP is the superficial reason we are given for the initial resentment between them (which I quite agree might have a deeper cause).< Betsy Hp: Well, no. Not the *initial* resentment anyway. At least in my opinion, JKR does a good job of showing that these two (Snape and Sirius) had not liked each other for a good long while. I was always under the impression that the snooping around was *because* of a mutual dislike, not the cause of it. >>Eloise: >Unfortunately, the snooping around *ought* to have alerted Snape to what he might face. It's compounded in OoP by having Snape reading about werewolves, a detail surely meant to remind us of the snooping, the resentment, but inconsistent with his decision to enter the tunnel.< Betsy Hp: Hmm, I know others on the list think Snape should have made the connection between his werewolf studies and Lupin. But I disagree. For one thing, Snape's battle seems to have been mainly with Sirius and James. They're the ones he would have been snooping around after. Lupin, as prefect and as someone who obviously saw little amusing in the way James and Sirius treated Snape, would have garnered very little notice from Snape, IMO. Plus, Lupin is a king at keeping secrets. He's been bred to it since the day he was bitten. I think his natural inclination is to say nothing until you absolutely have to and even then, hesitate. Dumbledore worked hard to keep Lupin's illness a secret as well. It would have been inconceivable to a child raised in the WW that a school would allow a werewolf to attend, so I see little reason for Snape to suspect such a thing. And I suspect any staff member in on the secret would have worked hard to make it appear that nothing at all was amiss with Remus Lupin. (It would be harder to keep roommates out of the loop, of course.) Frankly, we are still missing some very key factors to what happened the night of the prank. So I think it's a bit early in the game to start leveling charges of inconsistency at JKR. So far, I think she's done a bang up job. :) >>Eloise: >But then, books in general are full of these sorts of things. In this series, how is it *possible* that Harry both asks and confides so little? A good thing it is, too, or there's be no plot at all to speak of if he did what any sensible boy should do and tell the greatest wizard of the age whenever he had a suspicion that something was wrong instead of going it alone.< Betsy Hp: I think JKR has done a good job at mitigating those factors. For one, we are shown that Harry had been raised to *not* ask questions, ever. For another, Dumbledore is usually conveniently (and believably) out of the picture when things really start to go wrong. But Harry usually *does* try to go to a responsible adult when things go wrong. Actually, something I think JKR does very well is to not have Harry be a savior all the time (usually he's very much *not*) and to not have the villain make really obviously stupid decisions that lead to their downfall. Of course once the books are over we may be overwhelmed with the number of Flints, but at this point of the game I think JKR's story stands up to the fanatical scrutiny rather well. Betsy Hp From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 3 20:53:15 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:53:15 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room - a correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129997 I have just realised that there is a mistake in my post 129988 which makes the message contradict itself. The second sentence should read.... "I do not believe that the books will end with a saccharin-riding-off- into-the-sunset-with-swelling-music end." ..and not as shown. I shall make an appointment with my optician... :-( From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 21:51:50 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:51:50 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: <20050603171902.23417.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > > --- eggplant107 wrote: > > > Huh? Harry is told it is very important to learn occlumency but > > he is never told exactly why, the lessons are extremely unpleasant > > and taught by someone he neither likes nor trusts, it's little > > wonder he doesn't work hard. Who would? > Magda > > We have had this debate a few months ago but if you go back to the > chapter with the first occlumency lesson, Snape explains why Harry > has to learn occlumency and Harry's questions make it clear that he > does understand the importance. > > Magda bboyminn: Here are my thoughts on this specific event. There is a big difference between mentioning something and have the person you are speaking to grasp the basic concept, and repeatedly drilling home in no uncertain terms the magnitude, importance, and significant of a vitally critical piece of knowledge. This strikes me to some extent as the adult attitude that children should be spared from the gory details of things. Plus, Dumbledore has always been known to give extremely terse and limited detail in his explanation. So I speculate that others like Snape, would follow suit unless Dumbledore specifically gave them orders to do as I suggested and drill that concept into Harry until he fully comprehends the significants and magnitude of the fact. But it does seem clear that from that ONE casual conversation, while Harry understood it in the most basic way, no one bother to re-enforce the fact, and because of this, Harry didn't truly understand what it meant. The whole thing strikes me as being very Dursley-like, just do as I say and don't ask questions. When you objectively look as the importance of Harry learning Occlmency, it seems very shortsighted of all the adults involved for not having made sure Harry was better informed. Yes, Snape gave Harry the basic 'what' of the situation, then he let it drop, and never once delved into the 'why'. Further, and we've definitely had this discussion before, no only did Snape and others avoid the signigicant 'why' of Occlmency, but they failed miserably at the 'how'. Illustration, people everyday are told to relax, put aside their worries, and lower their stress levels, but unless someone gives the average person an effective 'how' then it's not going to happen. I've said in the past that the Occlumency lessons combined with all Harry's other frustrations are akin to coming up to a furiously angry person and giving him hard pokes with a sharp stick while saying 'calm down, calm down'. Sorry, but it's just doesn't work that way. I mean something as simple as reading a couple chapters of a good book before going to bed would have had a good likelihood of helping Harry calm down and clear his mind before bed. But did anyone even suggest such a simple and easy thing? NO. Back to the original point, if Harry learning Occlumency was so all-fired important, then why didn't the people involved impress that fact on Harry until he knew it with absolute clarity and certainty? Steve/bboyminn From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 22:40:05 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: <20050603171902.23417.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050603224005.15000.qmail@web32710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129999 Magda wrote: We have had this debate a few months ago but if you go back to the chapter with the first occlumency lesson, Snape explains why Harry has to learn occlumency and Harry's questions make it clear that he does understand the importance. Lynn: Well, this was a much nicer way to tell some of us that we may have forgotten a few pages. Thank you. Now, while I agree that Snape did explain things to Harry, there is also the part that says it doesn't make sense to Harry. "Harry's heart was pumping fast again. None of this added up." (p. 469 UK) What doesn't add up to Harry is the question. Is it the explanation that doesn't add up? Or is it why it is so bad that Harry has the connection with Voldemort? Somethinge else? Harry knows it is important but does he really understand why? Snape seemed much more interested in establishing his dominance than in making sure Harry really understood what was happening. Throughout that explaination, Snape belittles Harry and implies that Harry is too stupid to understand anything anyway and should just do what Snape says. Harry keeps asking questions and yet Snape appears to have a set script and doesn't want to answer Harry's questions directly. So, Harry may know that it is important but doesn't really know how important. JMO Lynn test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 23:15:26 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050603231526.84146.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130000 --- Steve wrote: > Back to the original point, if Harry learning Occlumency was so > all-fired important, then why didn't the people involved impress > that > fact on Harry until he knew it with absolute clarity and certainty? I guess they figured that since this was Voldemort - the guy who killed Cedric where he was standing right beside Harry, the guy who tied Harry to a tombstone and took some of his blood for a rebirthing spell, the guy who tortured him with crucio, the guy who ordered a pack of (incompetent but Harry didn't know it at the time) DE's after Harry, the guy whose wand regurgitated James and Lily and other dead people who then gave Harry advice - that Harry wouldn't need to have it spelled out in one-syllable words exactly why it was important to keep Voldemort out of his mind. I quite agree that Dumbledore can and should be criticized for giving Harry the silent treatment and not letting anyone tell him anything but I would have thought after what Harry had gone through at the end of GOF he might have grasped the importance of not being open to Voldemort without anyone dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's for him. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 23:36:50 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 23:36:50 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: <20050603231526.84146.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > --- Steve wrote: > > > Back to the original point, if Harry learning Occlumency was so > > all-fired important, then why didn't the people involved impress > > that fact on Harry until he knew it with absolute clarity and > > certainty? > Magda: > > I quite agree that Dumbledore can and should be criticized for > giving Harry the silent treatment and not letting anyone tell him > anything but I would have thought after what Harry had gone through > at the end of GOF he might have grasped the importance of not being > open to Voldemort without anyone dotting all the i's and crossing > all the t's for him. > > Magda bboyminn: The question isn't whether or not Harry knows that Voldemort is a badass, because nobody knows it better than Harry. The true question is whether Harry fully understands the nature of the Scar Connection and the extent to which Voldemort can exploit that connection in the future. The two-way aspect of the Scar Connection is something new, something that has just been discovered by Voldemort and realized by Dumbledore. It has only been mentioned once to Harry, and little effort was made during that one time to make Harry grasp just how serious this was and make him fully aware of how it could be exploited. Harry says himself that while the connection is not pleasant, it has been helpful. That makes it pretty clear that he doesn't grasp the extent to which Voldemort can use the connection to his own ends. Harry has always had access to Voldemort, that's nothing new, what has changed, and what Harry must be critically aware of, is that NOW Voldemort has access to Harry. So, it's the critical importance of Voldemort being able to exploit the connection that must with absolute clarity be impressed upon Harry, not just the existance of the connection or the general nature of Voldemort. One man's opinions. Steve/bboyminn From moonlit_howl at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 20:14:53 2005 From: moonlit_howl at yahoo.com (moonlit_howl) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 20:14:53 -0000 Subject: NOT RON! In-Reply-To: <200009201207.e8KC7Io05835@ccpl.carr.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130002 Pippin wrote: > > Notice that the description of the dead unicorn in SS is > > carefully drawn to parallel and foreshadow the death of Cedric > > in GOF, and Cedric, we are told, has unicorn hair in his wand -- > > and (oh no!) so does Ron (oh dear!) No not Ron, PLEASE not > > Ron, I'll do anything... Kathy wrote: > I feel like I should be DOING something, instead of just sitting > here for the next year, waiting to see if Ron will die. Let's > see, hunger strike? No, that won't work. Leaflet campaign? OK, > that's it, I'm founding SPUHTOBR (Society for the Prevention of > Undue Harm to Our Beloved Ron). 2 sickles to join! Laurel: NOOOOOOOOOOOO! They can't kill Ron. If J.K kills him.. I don't know what I'll do to her...But I don't think she'll kill ron...because he's one of the most valuable characters...but then again she killed Sirius... --------------------------------------------------------------------- In denial 'Sirius'ly... We know we're called Gred and Forge... Laurel From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 16:07:46 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:07:46 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130003 "koinonia02" wrote: > Since we actually know so very little > of the life of Dumbledore how can we > say Harry has done more to defeat > Voldemort and has suffered far more? That's not playing fair. You can always say that my wacky theory about character X can be defended if only we knew more about him but Rowling just hasn't bothered to tell us about it. As far as Harry knows and as far as we readers know Harry in 15 years has done more than Dumbledore has in 150. That's probably why the first book wasn't called "Albus Dumbledore And The Philosopher's Stone". Eggplant From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 16:42:31 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: <16232707f4238c3354c6be8e2b17a514@fandm.edu> Message-ID: <20050603164231.29531.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130004 A_svirn: > > I'd say that the fact that he was "young and > > troubled" doesn't diminish the potential wickedness of his > > intentions in the least. Would he be more likely to contemplate > > murder if he were mature and happy? I don't think so somehow. As > > for not properly realising consequences it's ... well, let's say > > I just don't buy it. and laura wrote: > So . . . you think the Prank was an intentional, > out-and-out attempted murder on Sirius's part? You think it was > actually his intention to get Snape killed? Somehow, I don't > think so. JKR *loves* Sirius. She admits he has many flaws, but, > ultimately, she thinks well of him. She cried when he died. Do > you really think she would admire his character if he were, in > fact, capable of murder at 16? As a general rule lots of things are possible at sixteen. But my take on the whole 'prank' thing is that if Sirius was doing it to get at Snape it'd be more like to scare the living heck out and/or possibly do injury to snape but most certainly not death. One can assume (if you ever have pulled a prank) said person wouldn't seriously be hurt by it. laurie __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 16:42:09 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:42:09 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130005 "festuco" wrote: > Please both of you read OoP p. 468-470 > (Bloomsbury hardcover) for the first > lesson and then explain te me why you > think he is not told why > he needs it, > as Snape explains exactly why he does. Ok, let's see what the book says. When the subject is first brought up Harry asks: "Why do I have to study Occlu? thing?" Snape replies: "Because the Headmaster thinks it a good idea," Harry tries again: "`But why does Professor Dumbledore want to stop it?' he asked abruptly. 'I don't like it much, but it's been useful, hasn't it? I mean I saw that snake attack Mr Weasley and if I hadn't, Professor Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to save him, would he? '" After a long string of insults the closest thing to an answer to Harry's very reasonable question is: "It appears that the Dark Lord has been unaware of the connection between you and himself until very recently". Harry tries a third time: "'How do you know?' said Harry urgently. 'Is this just Professor Dumbledore guessing, or -?' 'I told you,' said Snape, rigid in his chair, his eyes slits, 'to call me "sir".' 'Yes, sir,' said Harry impatiently, 'but how do you know -?' 'It is enough that we know,' said Snape" So let's review, Snape says that Dumbledore says various things but Harry has a very deep distrust of Snape and has no way of knowing if that is true because the Headmaster won't talk to him or even look at him. Snape says the lessons will strengthen his mind but Harry finds from direct experience that the exact opposite seems to be happening. So who should Harry believe, Snape or his eyes. To top it off the lessons are extremely unpleasant and literally make him sick. Perhaps it's just me but I wouldn't find that situation entirely satisfactory. Would that give you a incentive, would that be enough to make you diligently study a distasteful subject from a teacher who despises you, especially when you know that if you'd mastered it a month ago your best friend's father would be dead? Eggplant From alishak at spu.edu Fri Jun 3 16:42:50 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:42:50 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130006 Alisha: > > Yes, he has faced more than Ron or Hermione. Yes, Voldemort > > is trying to kill him. These things are true and valid, > > but since when do either of them make him more entitled to > > information? Eggplant: > To answer your question I'd say since human beings developed a > basic sense of justice. More than any other person on the planet > Harry has earned the right to know what's going on and what is > trying to kill him and why. Harry has every right to be angry when > this is denied him, especially when it caused the death of his > Godfather. When Harry was wrecking Dumbledore's office I was > cheering, I just wish he'd taked a swing at him. Alisha: I really think you're missing the point of my whole post. The point is that in the scene I was referring to, Harry doesn't know these things yet. He doesn't know that it will lead to the death of his godfather (which really, is just a result of Harry not listening when people /do/ tell him things). I was happy when he was upset in DD's office as well. It was about time he got upset. It's not the anger of Harry that bothers me. It's his superior attitude towards those who he knows care about him. Alisha - who thinks Harry's attitude problem in OotP is nothing compared to Sirius's From alishak at spu.edu Fri Jun 3 16:57:57 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:57:57 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: <27.7386cc7a.2fd13159@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130007 Alisha: > However, at this point in the story, Harry doesn't know either of > these things. Yes, he has faced more than Ron or Hermione. Yes, > Voldemort is trying to kill him. These things are true and valid, > but since when do either of them make him more entitled to > information? Melissa: > So you're saying that Harry's NOT entitled to know why a homicidal > maniac has made 4 separate attempts on his life? IMO, that more > than any other reason does entitle him to some cold hard facts. Alisha: That's not at all what I'm saying. The fact is, this isn't the information Harry seems to want. He doesn't ever even think to ask why LV has tried to kill him. He just wants to know what's going on right now. And, as far as we can deduce from the text, only a handful of /adult/ witches and wizards do (even his friends don't really know anything he couldn't have guessed for himself). If this were the information that he was wanting, I would be applauding him. It's about time he started wondering those things. I could identify with that curiosity. I know I'd like to know why a homicidal maniac was consistently targeting me. But he's so caught up in Ron and Hermione being "where the action is" that he can't even figure out what it is he really does have a right to know. Alisha - who wishes Harry could've been left alone to grow up into the really, really cool person he was starting to become. From blairb82 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 19:40:46 2005 From: blairb82 at yahoo.com (blairb82) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:40:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130008 Alla: Snip > But since I consider Prank to be almost complete mystery, I am not > completely opposed to another speculation - there was another > incident when James saved Snape's life, which we are not aware of > yet. I don't remember who raised it. > > Although I admit that I don't find it to be very likely. Yo'm Blair I would also see this as very unlikely seeing as we do not see any other incidents of James possibly saving Snape's life. But I do have one question about James saving the life of Snape here. Lupin came into close enough contact with a werewolf before entering Hogwarts to become one himself but of course he did not die he merely became a werewolf. It would seem that Snape, having several years at school to learn to defend himself would meet at worst a similar fate as Lupin. If this is so did James really save Snape's life or merely his existence as a non-wwrewolf? It is this question that has always given me an inkling that the life debt Snape owes James comes from a different source. This is my first post and I hope it doesn't just retread things already discussed but it seems like and interesting question at least to me Yo'm Blair From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 01:04:01 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 01:04:01 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130009 >>bboyminn: >The question isn't whether or not Harry knows that Voldemort is a badass, because nobody knows it better than Harry.< Betsy Hp: Does he? I thought that was part of the problem throughout OotP. Harry *never* fully grasps just how bad Voldemort is. He thinks he can take him. He thinks he's taken him before. Except Harry has never really taken Voldemort. He's been damned lucky, and it's unfortunately led Harry to become far too cocky. IMO of course. (Though to give Harry the benefit of the doubt, I think his belief that he's successfully taken Voldemort is one of the few things helping him sleep at night.) >>bboyminn: >The true question is whether Harry fully understands the nature of the Scar Connection and the extent to which Voldemort can exploit that connection in the future.< Betsy Hp: I think Harry knows and understands better than anyone. After all, he's experienced the connection before. The problem is he's working under the mistaken assumption that he can play Voldemort. I think Voldemort probably dialed up Harry's over-confidence, (see Amanda Geist's repost of her excellent breakdown on exactly how well Voldemort played Harry here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129474 ) but Harry played right into Voldemort's hands. >>bboyminn: >The two-way aspect of the Scar Connection is something new, something that has just been discovered by Voldemort and realized by Dumbledore. It has only been mentioned once to Harry, and little effort was made during that one time to make Harry grasp just how serious this was and make him fully aware of how it could be exploited.< Betsy Hp: I think Snape was pretty darn clear, myself. "The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return --" "And he might try and make me do things?" asked Harry. "Sir?" he added hurriedly. "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. "Which brings us back to Occlumency." (OotP scholastic p.533) Harry seems to grasp the concept as well. (Actually, Harry is remarkably accurate.) And since Harry lies to Snape about his continuing dreams and the amount of effort he puts into practicing, I'm not sure how it is that Snape should have been able to come to the conclusion that Harry completely missed the "here's why we have to endure each other's company" conversation. And honestly, I think Amanda is dead on with the suggestion that Harry falls under Voldemort's influence and that it's actually *Voldemort* sabotaging the lessons. Betsy Hp From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jun 4 01:38:55 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 01:38:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's entitlement - Long!(was Re: "Some won't like it".) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130010 > Ginger: I am entitled to my paycheck. I got one tonight, covering last week > and the week before, but not this week. I am entitled to my pay for > this week, but I have to wait until the right time. I'm not going > into accounting in the morning and saying "I put in a full week, and > Joe was on vacation, and I had to train the temps and they wouldn't > listen and I hit my head on the forklift so hard my ears plugged up > and the computer acted up and the nutcase who knows everything was in > my face and I WANT MY MONEY." > > None of this would be incorrect information on my part, and no one in > accounting would doubt that I worked those hours, but I still > wouldn't get the check. And it would probably be my last when it > came. This isn't the greatest analogy because you signed a contract that says when you will get payed and how much. Harry didn't get a contract that said when he would get to put in the know. He didn't get told, you do this and we can tell you everything (BTW, the most effective teaching technique would have been to tell Harry that he could be made a Junior OOTP member once he learned to Keep Voldie out. He would have learned occulomency faster than that summoning charm). He was just left to hang in the dark. > It isn't I'm entitled!Harry that made me want to sit him down and > give him a good talking to. It was Impatient!Harry. I agree with you that Harry was impatient and I think rightfully so. Maybe its because I am not the worlds most patient person but I was completely in Harry's corner the whole book. There could have been a thousand different ways to convey information to Harry in a way that Voldemort couldn't get to. Dumbledore just didn't implement them because he wanted to keep Harry ignorant. He just didn't want to say anything becuase he couldn't face the responsibility. the person in the wrong throughout the book isn't Harry. It'sDumbledore and the people he convinces to leave Harry out of the loop. > This isn't about Harry alone any more. It is Order business. Which > they are, by their membership, not allowed to divulge. Not just "we > can't tell Harry" but "we can't tell all these kids". That didn't matter. It was Harry who couldn't learn anything. Ron and Hermione were shielded because they are teenagers, Harry wasn't told because he had a phone line to the dark lord in his head. the fact that he would share info with his friends doesn't matter a lick. > During Occlumency lessons, Snape tells Harry *exactly* why he needs > the lessons. LV may be in his head. They suspected it, but only > after Arthur was attacked did they know it. All good reason not to > say anything in front of Harry that they didn't want LV to know. > Harry has had visions that he *is* LV. The connection has been > explained to him as well as they understand it. And he is still > Impatient!Harry. No it wasn't. They kew exactly what Voldemort was after and how he was going to try and get it. thats why they weren't telling him anything. All Snape told him was that Voldemort could get into his head and use his emotions. Not the why of the situation. Why would Voldemort spend his time picking through Harry's head? why would he try to make Harry do anything? Harry doesn't have any knowledge, power and influnce for Voldemort go after (as far as Harry knew), what could he possibly want that was locked in Harry's head? How hard would it have been to say, "Harry, voldemort will want you do something. no I can't tell you what until after you learn occulomency. but if you have any strange urges or dreams, for gods sake don't give in to them. they will most likely be a trick!" > In some cases, what they weren't telling Harry was information that > they didn't know, or had only a vague guess about. Dumbledore knew the answer to virtually every question Harry asked in OOTP. he just played things too close to the chest. > The ideal solution, IMO, would have been to have someone go to the > Dursley neighbourhood incognito, catch Harry as he was wandering > around, and just tell him, "I know you have a ton of questions, but > they will have to wait for your own personal safety. We can't tell > you everything because we're still figuring it out. We'll keep you > posted. Stay cool. You know you have to stay with these creeps for > your protection, so hang tight. We'll send for you as soon as > possible. We're working on it." I think this would have been a great compromise. > The long and short of it (too late for the short, I know) is that > Harry had good reason to feel the way he did, and the Order had good > reason to act as it did. There just needed to be a bridge (the > Order's fault) and Harry needed to chill out (Harry's fault). Actually the order's reasons weren't good. Dmbledore admits that it was wrong to leave Harry in the dark for the year. Tat says to me that Dumbledore had a method to give Harry information and he just decided not to use it because that meant Harry would have to learn the prophecy that dumbledore didn't want to share. I say about 90% of the blame is on Dumbledore, about 9% is on the rest of the order for going along with such crapy decision making and 1% on Harry. > Given Harry's recent trauma and the fact that he is still a teenager I have a minority opinion of one on this list apparently. I don't think Harry's attitude has much to do with him being a teenager and everything to do with being Harry. Harry is a doer. he needs to feel like he is participating and helping out with the war effort. shutting him in Hogwarts drove him about as insane as Sirius went over at the GP. Virtually any other teenager would have either passively went along with the order (Hermione, Neville) or grumbled about being treated like a kid but still not done much (Ron, Ginny). Harry is proactive in a way that no other character in the book is and no one in the order honored that. Frankly I think they could have gotten away with hiding a whole lot more from Harry if they just made him feel like what he was doing mattered to the war effort. if Dumbledore or Snape connected learning occulomency to some kind of reward like becoming a junior member of the order or some knowledge about what was going on, I think Harry would have thrown himself into the lessons with gusto, regardless of who was teaching them. but he was expected to just learn them with no added promises of being brought more into the know. contrast that with if he could just make it through that door... this whole conversation reminds me of why I didn't like OOTP. the book relies too much on smart characters being stupid. I don't have a hundred years of teaching experience and even I know that kids will go to the bat for you if you give them some trust and responsibility. They, like everyone else, want to feel like what they do matters. phoenixgod2000 From prncssme at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 01:18:34 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 01:18:34 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130011 "koinonia02" wrote: > > Since we actually know so very little > > of the life of Dumbledore how can we > > say Harry has done more to defeat > > Voldemort and has suffered far more? Eggplant: > That's not playing fair. You can always say that my wacky theory > about character X can be defended if only we knew more about him > but Rowling just hasn't bothered to tell us about it. As far as > Harry knows and as far as we readers know Harry in 15 years has > done more than Dumbledore has in 150. That's probably why the > first book wasn't called "Albus Dumbledore And The Philosopher's > Stone". And even if Dumbledore HAS done more against Voldemort, he was already a grown man when he did it. Harry has essentially had his whole childhood stolen from him. Even before he discovered the truth about LV and his parents' deaths, he'd had to endure what basically amounts to child abuse as a result of LV. When he does discover the WW, he immediately becomes a target again and had to face possible death at the age of 11...then 12...then 13... Harry IS exceptional because not only has he survived, he's done it at an age when most other kids are just barely able to function autonomously! So regardless of how much DD did or did not do in comparison with Harry, I think we can say that Harry has done more and suffered more in the fight against LV. Now, is Harry's attitude rational? No, because as another poster mentioned, he's asking the wrong questions for the wrong reasons. But keep in mind, he's very much a teenager in OoP and is reacting like one. Nothing, and I mean nothing, seems fair when you're that age. The whole world seems like it's out to get you and in Harry's case, this is true. The WW is convinced he's a nutter, a madman's after him, and no one's telling him anything about said madman. If I'd done what Harry's done by the time I was fifteen, I think I'd have a bit of an entitlement complex as well. - Sara From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 02:21:13 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 02:21:13 -0000 Subject: Harry's entitlement - Long!(was Re: "Some won't like it".) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130012 Guinger: The connection has been explained to him as well as they understand it. And he is still Impatient!Harry. Phoenixgod: No it wasn't. They kew exactly what Voldemort was after and how he was going to try and get it. thats why they weren't telling him anything. All Snape told him was that Voldemort could get into his head and use his emotions. Not the why of the situation. Why would Voldemort spend his time picking through Harry's head? why would he try to make Harry do anything? Harry doesn't have any knowledge, power and influnce for Voldemort go after (as far as Harry knew), what could he possibly want that was locked in Harry's head? How hard would it have been to say, "Harry, voldemort will want you do something. no I can't tell you what until after you learn occulomency. but if you have any strange urges or dreams, for gods sake don't give in to them. they will most likely be a trick!" Alla: Yes, yes, Phoenixgod, ITA with your whole post. :-) No, I completely disagree that Harry was given clear explanation as to why he had to learn Occlumency. Let's not forget WHO gave him that explanation. :-) That is why I am so adamant that Snape's creating constant emnity between him and Harry during these five years blew in the Order face in a spectacular sort of way. Snape was the last person Harry would believe, IMO. And as Eggplant pointed out Harry did ask whether this is what Dumbledore guesses about the connection, but in response he got "I told you to call me Sir" :-) At least Snape could have rely on Dumbledore to make Harry trust the information more, IMO. Guinger: In some cases, what they weren't telling Harry was information that they didn't know, or had only a vague guess about. Phoenixgod: Dumbledore knew the answer to virtually every question Harry asked in OOTP. he just played things too close to the chest. Alla: Oh, they knew all right, IMO. They knew perfectly well that Voldemort may try to lure Harry in DoM and why or at least Dumbledore did. They did guard the Prophecy after all. THAT what Harry needed to hear, or at least as you said - that Voldemort may have send false dreams in Harry's head in general. Harry knows about connection between him and Voldie for a long time. He experienced the connection since GoF at least. What he had not been told is what changed. Why now the connection become especially dangerous, IMO. Phoenixgod: Actually the order's reasons weren't good. Dmbledore admits that it was wrong to leave Harry in the dark for the year. Tat says to me that Dumbledore had a method to give Harry information and he just decided not to use it because that meant Harry would have to learn the prophecy that dumbledore didn't want to share. I say about 90% of the blame is on Dumbledore, about 9% is on the rest of the order for going along with such crapy decision making and 1% on Harry. Alla: Let's also not forget that not only Dumbledore admits that it was wrong to keep Harry in the dark the whole year, but the whole idea of him keeping distance from Harry in itself was wrong and useless. "I was sure that if he realised what our relationship was - or had ever been - closer than that of headmaster or pupil, he would have seize his chance to use you as means to spy on me. ... I was trying , in distancing myself from you, to protect you. An old man mistake... ... Voldemort's aim in possessing you, as he demonstrated tonight, would not have been my destruction. It would have been yours. he hoped, when he possessed you briefly a short while ago, that I would sacrifice you in hopes of killing him." - OOP, paperback, p.828. It seems to me that Dumbledore acknowledges that he was wrong to keep the distance from Harry in the first place, because it would not have made any difference to Voldie. Phoenixgod: if Dumbledore or Snape connected learning occulomency to some kind of reward like becoming a junior member of the order or some knowledge about what was going on, I think Harry would have thrown himself into the lessons with gusto, regardless of who was teaching them. but he was expected to just learn them with no added promises of being brought more into the know. contrast that with if he could just make it through that door... Alla: Interesting. I have to think about this one. :-) Just my opinion of course, Alla From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 4 02:21:15 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 02:21:15 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Message 130003 eggplant: > That's not playing fair. You can always say that my wacky theory >about character X can be defended if only we knew more about him >but Rowling just hasn't bothered to tell us about it. As far as >Harry knows and as far as we readers know Harry in 15 years has >done more than Dumbledore has in 150. That's probably why the first >book wasn't called "Albus Dumbledore And The Philosopher's Stone". "K": The fact still remains that we have yet to be told just what Dumbledore has been doing all these years. I don't believe he has been sitting on the sidelines just passing time. Look, I am a Harry fan. I love the kid and want him to be a hero, but in all honesty the thought of Harry and only Harry being the great hero with everyone else bowing down kissing his feet is not what I hope to see. Harry isn't the only person who has suffered during the Voldemort reign. Many have lost their lives in the effort to defeat Voldemort. Families have lost loved ones so let's not forget that. Harry isn't the *only one* in this war. Yes, the books are about Harry Potter and that's fine with me though I wouldn't mind if Harry took a small vacation in HBP and more focus was on a few other characters, including Dumbledore. :-) So, this isn't really about taking anything away from Harry. It's just acknowledging Harry isn't the only one in the fight and he isn't the only one to suffer. I don't need Harry to be the one "who has suffered the most". I don't need Harry to be the one "who has done more than anyone" in order to love the character. From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Sat Jun 4 02:22:07 2005 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 02:22:07 -0000 Subject: MAGIC TUMBLE DRYER (was: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130014 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" wrote: > I think that the 7 Heavenly Virtues being represented in each of > the 7 books are an excellent model for interpreting the HP saga. > However, I think Maus has misidentified the Heavenly Virtue for > Book 5 (see below.) It seems to me that OotP is not about Hope vs. > Disillusionment but is about Prudence vs. rashness/stupidity. > OotP was the first Harry Potter book that gave me the impression that it had a very clear-cut central theme, OotP was what made me wonder if not perhaps all Harry Potter books had one single defining theme. So I hope you'll understand if I'm somewhat reluctant to change my views. I have to admit though that a very good case can be made for Prudence vs. Rashness being the main theme of OotP: Harry acts rashly when he speaks up in Umbridge's DADA class even when he is told not to, Harry acts rashly when he attacks Draco after the Quidditch match against Slytherin, Harry acts rashly when he wants to run of alone after the snake attack on Arthur Weasley, and Harry certainly acts rashly when he rushes of to the MoM to save Sirius. The reason I still don't think Prudence vs. Rashness is the main theme of OotP is that at the pivotal moment, the battle at the MoM, Harry never shows true prudence. What would be the point of showing Harry acting rashly the whole year if Harry in the end doesn't overcome his rashness and shows he has learned from his mistakes? And there are plenty of reasons to see Hope vs. Disillusionment as being the main theme of OotP: at the start of the book Harry is disillusioned by the fact that nothing seems to happen after the return of Voldemort, Harry is disillusioned when he finds out how many of the old order have died, Harry is disillusioned when Hogwarts turns out not to be save from outside influences when Umbridge slowly takes away everything he likes about Hogwarts, Harry is disillusioned when he finds out that James and Sirius were not always the nice people he imagined them to be, and Harry is disillusioned when he finds out that his role as the hero who neatly solves everything isn't always that simple. This is then also nicely symbolised by the Disillusionment charm at the beginning of the book. But most important of all in the battle at the MoM Harry shows true hope when he thinks of being with Sirius as Voldemort possesses and tries to kill him. Luna reminds Harry of this hope when she tells him we will see the people we loved again and when she isn't worried about her things turning up in the end, and the book even ends with an image of hope when Harry leads the Dursleys out of the train station into the bright sunlit street. If you really want to convince me that Hope vs. Disillusionment is not the main theme of OotP, you will have to show me a moment where Harry shows true prudence. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Alina wrote: > I had a brief discussing last year in class about charity vs love > and the meaning of caritas when we were discussing the Prioress in > Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. And as I understand it, Love as Amore > means romantic/sexual love while Charity/Caritas is love for > humankind. I think then that caritas IS the appropriate theme for > book 7, not amore, because so far the books haven't been romantice > books (they have romance, but only so far as it develops character) > and caritas is a better contrast to Voldy and the DE's hatred of the > halfbloods and muggleborns. > We seem to have a slight misunderstanding here. There never was any doubt if the original meaning of this virtue came from caritas or if it came from amore, it most definitely came from the word caritas as used in early Latin versions of the New Testament. The question was how the original Latin caritas could best be translated in a single English word with the same meaning. Most modern versions of the Bible translate it as love, the King James version of the Bible however translates it as charity (which explains why the Seven Heavenly Virtues now include the virtue charity). As you pointed out caritas originally referred to a kind of divine love of all humankind, I therefore think love comes closer to the original meaning than charity does. You are right though in that love doesn't really cover the entire meaning of the word, so feel free to substitute 'divinely inspired love for all humankind' wherever it says 'love' in the original post. -Maus Come to the KITTENS & RAINBOWS theory website: http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 05:40:04 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 05:40:04 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy Hp: > I think Snape was pretty darn clear, myself. > Snips quote that proves this. Tonks: I think that Harry knew what he was to do and why as Betsy has shown. In addition I would like to point out: First this is a war situation. When your superior tells you to dig a ditch you do it and do it now. You don't ask "why?" Also Harry is not yet an adult and should still do as he is told by an adult in authority over him. (Except Umbridge, which is another story.) I know that this is a shocking idea in modern America and maybe the UK as well, but I don't think that it is in the WW which operated in the 18th century or so. Just how many people have to tell Harry before he gets it? They all told him, not just Snape and DD. Even Sirius told him. Harry wouldn't listen to anyone. Hermione isn't the only *little know it all* this time around. Sometimes when one is a spy or in a war situation it is best not to know all the details. This is a game of chess and the pawn doesn't ask the chess master what his plans are, he just makes the moves he has been given. (Ya, I know Harry is going to be the white King, but he isn't yet.) And the bottom line is, of course, if Harry had listened and done what was expected of him we wouldn't have a story would we? We wouldn't have such a keen illustration of what can happen when we are led astray by the forces of evil. We wouldn't have such a good illustration of the importance of stopping and thinking first before we act. We wouldn't have an example of why we should listen to the voice of reason over emotion. Now there is a lesson Snape can give. Hermione tried to, but Harry was too caught up in his emotions to hear her. There are a lot of great lessons here for kids which we would not have had if Harry hadn't screwed up. We can't blame the adults. Harry is not stupid, he knew what he needed to do and why. He didn't want to do it because of his curiosity and maybe just a bid of pride. He can see these things and no one else can, that is kinda cool. No he doesn't say this, but it might have been in the back of his mind, that back of his mind where LV is tugging. I know that we all love Harry and he is a kid, and has been through a lot, but we really can't let him off the hook here. It broke my heart to see Harry mess up so badly. But I think the author did this to help kids understand that even a really serious mistake can be forgiven and life can go on. Tonks_op From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jun 4 07:02:59 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:02:59 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130016 > Tonks: > I think that Harry knew what he was to do and why as Betsy has > shown. In addition I would like to point out: > > First this is a war situation. When your superior tells you to dig > a ditch you do it and do it now. You don't ask "why?" Funny I don't recall him being given an Auror pin or a phoenix badge. Harry isn't a soldier and he wasn't drafted into any organization (except maybe by destiny). Dumbledore didn't give him a junior fledging Order of the Phoenix card. Maybe if he had, you would have some room to stand on, but as it stands, Harry isn't under orders to anyone other than his conscience. Harry is under no duty to obey General Dumbledore unless the order is 'do your homework.' >Also Harry > is not yet an adult and should still do as he is told by an adult in > authority over him. Snape isn't in authority over him when it comes to his 'remedial potion lessons'. Occulomency is completely outside of his authority as a school teacher. it is outside of class and Harry is under no duty to listen to Snape or obey him in any way other than when it directly pertains to his school duties. Which Occulomency does not fall under. Harry is there of his own volition. Why do you think Snape doesn't take any points away (If I am remembering correctly)? > Just how many people have to tell Harry before he gets it? They all > told him, not just Snape and DD. Even Sirius told him. Harry > wouldn't listen to anyone. Hermione isn't the only *little know it > all* this time around. They all told him it was important. Not a single one of them said why it was important. How could shielding his mind possibly be more valuable than knowing what Voldemort knows? That is the answer no one gives. > Sometimes when one is a spy or in a war situation it is best not to > know all the details. This is a game of chess and the pawn doesn't > ask the chess master what his plans are, he just makes the moves he > has been given. Harry wasn't asked to make any moves. He was just given short curt answers that did nothing to assuage his real questions and did everything to make him ANGRY!Harry. > And the bottom line is, of course, if Harry had listened and done > what was expected of him we wouldn't have a story would we? And if Dumbledore were competent the world wouldn't have to repeatedly rely on a scarred kid to save the school every year, but there we are. >We wouldn't have an example of why we should listen to the > voice of reason over emotion. Now there is a lesson Snape can > give. You're kidding right? You cannot possibly mean that Severus Snape should serve as an example of emotional control and the triumph of reason over emotion. the same guy who hates a child he's never met based on looking like his high school bully father? the same guy who thinks that humiliating childern is jolly good fun? That guy? unless you mean as an object lesson, ie 'never turn out like that guy' >We > can't blame the adults. Sure we can Even your vaunted Dumbledore blames the adults, so I can. Harry is not stupid, he knew what he needed > to do and why. Once again, no he didn't. He knew the general purpose of Occulomency but nothing about why Voldemort wanted to take a peek inside his mind. that was what was needed to be answered. He didn't want to do it because of his curiosity and > maybe just a bid of pride. He can see these things and no one else > can, that is kinda cool. I...thats...I don't even know where to begin to respond to that other than I completely disagree and don't think that is borne out within canon in even the slightest measure. this is what I believe Harry was thinking: If I can get behind that door I will finally know something important. DD will have to let me in. he won't be able to avoid me if I know something. maybe I can save someone else like I did Mr Weasley. Maybe then they'll trust me and let me in. If I can just show them what I can do they'll have to let me in the order... Harry wanted to be needed. Like I said in an earlier post, he wanted to believe that what he was doing and enduring mattered. That it meant something. > I know that we all love Harry and he is a kid, and has been through > a lot, but we really can't let him off the hook here. It broke my > heart to see Harry mess up so badly. Sure Harry bares some responsibility, but imo he only hung himself with the noose that Dumbledore and the rest of the order conveniently left hanging around his neck. But I think the author did > this to help kids understand that even a really serious mistake can > be forgiven and life can go on. I agree. Harry will eventually forgive Dumbledore for stringing him along and not treating him like the competent warrior he has repeatedly demonstrated to be :) phoenixgod2000 From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat Jun 4 07:25:44 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:25:44 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: are extremely unpleasant and literally make him sick. > > Perhaps it's just me but I wouldn't find that situation entirely > satisfactory. Would that give you a incentive, would that be enough to > make you diligently study a distasteful subject from a teacher who > despises you, especially when you know that if you'd mastered it a Can you explain to me why you disregard the rest of the conversation. The part where Snape gives an (for him) extensive explanation? Gerry From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 07:32:41 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:32:41 -0000 Subject: Harry's entitlement - Long!(was Re: "Some won't like it".) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > ...edited... > > Phoenixgod: > if Dumbledore or Snape connected learning occulomency to some kind > of reward like becoming a junior member of the order or some > knowledge about what was going on, I think Harry would have thrown > himself into the lessons with gusto, regardless of who was teaching > them. but he was expected to just learn them with no added promises > of being brought more into the know. contrast that with if he could > just make it through that door... > Alla: > > Interesting. I have to think about this one. :-) > > Just my opinion of course, > > Alla Bboyminn: Now I think Phoenixgod has touched on something very important; something I also tried to stress but approached it differently. "...learning occulomency to some kind of reward..." "...added promises..." Except I think the key is more general than a 'reward' or 'promise'. The key is /motivation/. No kid was ever motivated by 'because I said so', and certainly NO teenager was ever motivated by that approach. There were ample opportunities to motivate Harry without giving away any secrets. Let go for the quote first- ---Quote - OotP - Am Ed HB - Pg 433--- "The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return --" "And he might try and make me do things?" asked Harry. "Sir?" he added hurriedly. "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. "Which brings us back to Occlumency." - - - end quote - - - Right there at the end is the perfect opportunity to clear things up. Yes, Harry does say "...he might try and make me do things?", but how does Snape respond? With a causal 'maybe' and a dismissal of the core question. Which, by the way, is just one of a long frustrating series of dismissals and avoidances of Harry questions. That was the perfect opportunity for Snape to say, 'Yes! That is exactly why you need to learn to block Voldemort from you mind.' But Snape does not truly confirm Harry suspicions, relative to this critical and vitally important KEY piece of knowledge and understanding, Snape is 'cold and unconcerned'. If there is anything in that conversation that Snape and Harry should be concerned about, it's making aboslutely sure that Harry understands the full magnitude and importance of that point. ---Quote - OotP - Am Ed HB - pg 538--- "I want you back here same time on Wednesday, and we will continue work the." [Snape is speaking] "Fine," said Harry/ He was desperate to get out of Snape's office and find Ron and Hermione. "You are to rid your mind of all emotion every night before you sleep -- empty it, make it blank and clam, you understand?" [again Snape is speaking] "Yes," said Harry, who was barely listening. - - - end quote - - - Again, a perfect opportunity is lost. Harry understands that he is suppose to block his dreams, but I will bet dollars to donuts that Harry, Ron, and Hermione ALL assume that means Harry is support to stop the normal dreams that Harry is having where he views things that are happening to Voldemort. At this critical point, no one impresses on Harry that Voldemort now has the ability to intentionally project images into Harry's dreams, and more importantly, that Voldemort can project false images and scenes. If Harry understood that these /special/ dreams he had been having of real events NOW had the potential to be false dreams, false dreams manufactured by Voldemort with the clear intent of making Harry take action based on that false information, Harry would have had clear and sure /motivation/ to try and lock out those dreams, and to give far less weight to any dreams he might have. This is shown in a crystal clear manner to be Harry's exact attitude when he has the dream about Sirius. Despite Hermione's speculation to the contrary, all Harry's previous /special/ dreams had been of true events, and he had no reason, no MOTIVATION, to think that this dream was any different. Further, to reveal this information to Harry would not have compromised the Order or their secrets or plans in any way. It is all pretty neutral information, that would have been of tremendous help to Harry and of no detriment to anyone else. All this said, I really do understand this attitude by adults with regard to keeping kids in the dark. It's not always so much that they are willfully keeping kids in the dark, it's just that kids thoughts and feelings are given very little consideration by adults. Harry is tucked away at the Dursleys, yes - it's difficult for him, but he'll muddle through, time marches on, Dumbledore has things to do, and Harry is just left without a thought; essentially warehoused. Perhaps not willfully with calculated intent is he warehouse, but in the end, functionally, that is exactly what happens. He's a kid; the adults will handle this. Of course, the ultimate answer to this problem is that things went this way because JKR needed the story to go this way. Given that this is the direction JKR had to force the story, was she able to do it in a way that was consistent with the related characters? Let's see - Snape is a jerk - [check] Dumbledore is very tight with information - [check] Sirius is headstrong and impulsive - [check] Harry has a 'saving people thing' - [check] Adults are adults - [check] Kids are kids - [check] Teens are moody, hard put upon, and angst ridden - [check] All systems - GO! Steve/bboyminn From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 07:44:22 2005 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:44:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's entitlement - Long!(was Re: "Some won't like it".) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > > Ginger: >Frankly I think they could have gotten away with hiding a whole lot more from Harry if they just made him feel like what he was doing mattered to the war effort. if Dumbledore or Snape connected learning occulomency to some kind of reward like becoming a junior member of the order or some knowledge about what was going on, I think Harry would have thrown himself into the lessons with gusto, regardless of who was teaching them. but he was expected to just learn them with no added promises of being brought more into the know. contrast that with if he could just make it through that door... I agree wholeheartedly here. From the way I interpret Harry he works best when he understands the *reason* behind things. When there is a clear goal or explanation he is just fine, but, in my personal opinion, when he is not given a clear reason or his questions are ignored it reminds him of the Dursley's, and so he reacts accordingly. The cardinal rule for Harry growing up was "Don't ask questions!" So Harry doesn't automatically understand as most children learn that sometimes there is a good reason for an adult not to answer a question, he would certainly not connect the lack of communication to it being for his saftey because in his experience the Dursleys never answered his questions simply to be spiteful and hurtful towards him. In the first book, Harry accepts Dumbledore's explanation that there will be a time when it is appropriate for him to know exactly *why* Voldemort is after him, because Dumbledore states very clearly that there is a reason but that he cannot tell him at that point. He doesn't exactly give a full explanation but he does say more than "don't ask questions!" and Harry accepts it. However, following the traumatic events of the third task Harry is feeling, rightfully so, that he *needs* to know more about why Voldemort is after him. But he is basically being told "stop asking because we won't tell you." If Dumbledore had bothered to talk to Harry at this point instead of plain ignoring him things would have probably gone smoother at that point. However, Dumbledore's treatment of him coupled with his questions being ignored without explanation would lead Harry back to feeling like the adults he thought he could trust were acting just like the Dursley's. Kateydidnt From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat Jun 4 07:46:25 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:46:25 -0000 Subject: Harry's entitlement - Long!(was Re: "Some won't like it".) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130020 > No it wasn't. They kew exactly what Voldemort was after and how he > was going to try and get it. thats why they weren't telling him > anything. All Snape told him was that Voldemort could get into his > head and use his emotions. Not the why of the situation. Why would > Voldemort spend his time picking through Harry's head? why would he > try to make Harry do anything? Harry doesn't have any knowledge, > power and influnce for Voldemort go after (as far as Harry knew), > what could he possibly want that was locked in Harry's head? Now I don't agree. If a supposedly smart 15 year old cannot understand why it is a bad thing the main enemy has a direct connection to his mind, he deserves to be kept in the dark. This level of stupidity is frankly downright dangerous. Besides if someone cannot understand this very simple fact, what else do they need to have spelled out for them which is so very, very obvious? If Harry were five, yes, telling why would have been necessary. But he is 15! I agree that DD should have told more. But here it was Harry who was entirely to blame for his unwillingness to understand. I don't believe that LV's influence reaches much beyond the dreams. Gerry From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat Jun 4 07:57:49 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 07:57:49 -0000 Subject: Harry's entitlement - Long!(was Re: "Some won't like it".) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130021 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > I have a minority opinion of one on this list apparently. I don't > think Harry's attitude has much to do with him being a teenager and > everything to do with being Harry. Harry is a doer. he needs to > feel like he is participating and helping out with the war effort. > shutting him in Hogwarts drove him about as insane as Sirius went > over at the GP. Virtually any other teenager would have either > passively went along with the order (Hermione, Neville) or grumbled > about being treated like a kid but still not done much (Ron, > Ginny). Harry is proactive in a way that no other character in the > book is and no one in the order honored that. Frankly I think they > could have gotten away with hiding a whole lot more from Harry if > they just made him feel like what he was doing mattered to the war > effort. Yes, excellent point if Dumbledore or Snape connected learning occulomency to > some kind of reward like becoming a junior member of the order or > some knowledge about what was going on, I think Harry would have > thrown himself into the lessons with gusto, regardless of who was > teaching them. This I don't agree to at all. We are talking about a higly dangerous membership of a secret order in a war. You get in because you are useful and know how to handle yourself, in other words because you have a certain level of maturity so people can count on you. It is not a reward for being a good boy. What Harry shows throughout the book is that he is not fit to be a member of the Order. He has not the necessary level of maturity yet. Maybe he will do some growing up over the summer so he can be a part, but the Harry in book 5 is far too immature, and therefore too much a danger to the others. Gerry From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 08:01:58 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 08:01:58 -0000 Subject: Harry's entitlement - Long!(was Re: "Some won't like it".) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130022 Phoenixgod said: Harry didn't get a > contract that said when he would get to put in the know. He didn't > get told, you do this and we can tell you everything (BTW, the most > effective teaching technique would have been to tell Harry that he > could be made a Junior OOTP member once he learned to Keep Voldie > out. He would have learned occulomency faster than that summoning > charm). He was just left to hang in the dark. Ginger: True! He wasn't given a contract at all. LV just decided that he was the one to go after and kill. Everyone on the good side has been risking themselves to protect Harry (and the WW through him). If anything, Harry should be badgering LV for information. I like the jr. OoP technique. If nothing else, it would have given him a goal to work towards and kept his mind off whining. Phoenixgod: > I agree with you that Harry was impatient and I think rightfully so. > Maybe its because I am not the worlds most patient person but I was > completely in Harry's corner the whole book. Ginger: I have extremely limited patience, which is why I was so annoyed with Impatient!Harry. I go throught this at work every time I have to train someone. You know what you are doing. You have the experience, but they know it all after 5 minutes because they used to work in a beet plant (or whatever) and can't be bothered with things like "Turn off the air pressure before you stick your hand in the compressor or you can squish your hand." Just following orders seems to be beneath people's dignity these days. I have no patience with impatience ;) Phoenixgod: There could have been > a thousand different ways to convey information to Harry in a way > that Voldemort couldn't get to. Ginger: Complete agreement here! Phoenixgod: Dumbledore just didn't implement > them because he wanted to keep Harry ignorant. He just didn't want > to say anything becuase he couldn't face the responsibility. the > person in the wrong throughout the book isn't Harry. It'sDumbledore > and the people he convinces to leave Harry out of the loop. Ginger: I'd only partly agree with this. Until LV came back, DD really had no reason to let Harry in on a lot of the stuff, and when he did come back, there was the scar connection thing. Harry gets a larger share of the blame from me than he gets from you simply because the whole time he was demanding answers, he wasn't listening. Not *really* listening. He wanted to know what he wanted to know at the time, and everything else people told him just went in one ear and out the other. It didn't qualify to him, so he just kept on a-ranting. Phoenixgod: > No it wasn't. They kew exactly what Voldemort was after and how he > was going to try and get it. thats why they weren't telling him > anything. Ginger: Do you think they knew the whole prophecy thing? I got the impression that the adults other than DD didn't know exactly what "the weapon" was. I really didn't think that they knew specificly that LV would make Harry go to the DoM. I had thought that DD and Snape only figured this out *after* Harry started Occulemency lessons and Snape saw the dreams in Harry's head. Before that, I thought it was just general worry about the scar connection. I could be wrong on this. I don't think it ever really says. Phoenixgod: All Snape told him was that Voldemort could get into his > head and use his emotions. Ginger: I'm thinking that would suffice. "There's a Dark Lord in your head. I'm going to teach you to keep him out." I don't know about you, but as curious as I may be about *why* someone's reading my mind, the fact that they are would be enough to make me serious about getting them out. Phoenixgod: Not the why of the situation. Why would > Voldemort spend his time picking through Harry's head? why would he > try to make Harry do anything? Harry doesn't have any knowledge, > power and influnce for Voldemort go after (as far as Harry knew), > what could he possibly want that was locked in Harry's head? Ginger: Until Snape saw the dream, did anyone know? Even DD was only guessing at this point. Phoenixgod: > How hard would it have been to say, "Harry, voldemort will want you > do something. no I can't tell you what until after you learn > occulomency. but if you have any strange urges or dreams, for gods > sake don't give in to them. they will most likely be a trick!" > Ginger: I don't think they knew quite that much, but I agree with the sentiment. "Harry, LV is trying to access your mind. He may put things there. When you learn to block things out, *then* we can tell you all. Right now, you're an open book. Whatever we tell you, we are telling him." Phoenixgod: > I have a minority opinion of one on this list apparently. I don't > think Harry's attitude has much to do with him being a teenager and > everything to do with being Harry. Ginger: I'd say being Harry (as you say later, a "doer") does play a part. So does his trauma, and, recalling my teenage years when I was as much of a self-centered little $4!+ as Harry, I'd say that his immaturity does come into play. He isn't mature enough to see the situation as a larger picture. He is only interested in his own piece of the puzzle, and if it doesn't fit with the whole, then screw the whole. Very immature attitude. Some people don't grow out of it, and for those types, I'd say it is part of their personality, but I have found those "me-centred" people to be much stupider than Harry, so I'm chalking it up to Harry's age rather than making a character judgement. I'm snipping the rest as this is getting long and I think your points are valid, although I'd quibble a tad on specifics. Thanks for your response, Ginger From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Jun 4 08:42:55 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 08:42:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's entitlement - Long!(was Re: "Some won't like it".) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, phoenixgod wrote: > > I have a minority opinion of one on this list apparently. I don't > think Harry's attitude has much to do with him being a teenager and > everything to do with being Harry. Harry is a doer. he needs to > feel like he is participating and helping out with the war effort. > shutting him in Hogwarts drove him about as insane as Sirius went > over at the GP. Virtually any other teenager would have either > passively went along with the order (Hermione, Neville) or grumbled > about being treated like a kid but still not done much (Ron, > Ginny). Harry is proactive in a way that no other character in the > book is and no one in the order honored that. Frankly I think they > could have gotten away with hiding a whole lot more from Harry if > they just made him feel like what he was doing mattered to the war > effort. if Dumbledore or Snape connected learning occulomency to > some kind of reward like becoming a junior member of the order or > some knowledge about what was going on, I think Harry would have > thrown himself into the lessons with gusto, regardless of who was > teaching them. but he was expected to just learn them with no added > promises of being brought more into the know. contrast that with if > he could just make it through that door... Hmmm. I think there is a compromise possible here. I agree that much of Harry's behavior in this situation comes from fixed personality patterns rooted in his upbringing, his experiences, and in just being who he is. However, those personality patterns are affected by the fact that Harry is at a certain stage in his emotional development. In other words, it isn't that he's Harry, or that he's a teenager, it's that he's a teenaged Harry. > > this whole conversation reminds me of why I didn't like OOTP. the > book relies too much on smart characters being stupid. I don't have > a hundred years of teaching experience and even I know that kids > will go to the bat for you if you give them some trust and > responsibility. They, like everyone else, want to feel like what > they do matters. > This I definitely agree with. OOTP was definitely Rowling's worst effort, filled with clumsy contrivances so poorly handled as to be appalling at times. Having said that, I do have to admit it does illustrate accurately many of the issues that arise between adults and teenagers, particularly with regard to communication. In other words, I agree that adults and teenagers as a generic rule act in ways like this. However, I found it very hard to believe that THESE adults (particularly) would have acted like this in this situation. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Jun 4 09:03:29 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:03:29 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > > > > First this is a war situation. When your superior tells you to dig > a ditch you do it and do it now. I'll have to agree with Phoenixgod here, I don't recall Harry getting any draft papers along the way. I also don't recall anybody giving Dumbledore a crown and sceptre and proclaiming him high king of all wizards and witches. You don't ask "why?" Also Harry > is not yet an adult and should still do as he is told by an adult in > authority over him. (Except Umbridge, which is another story.) I > know that this is a shocking idea in modern America and maybe the UK > as well, but I don't think that it is in the WW which operated in > the 18th century or so. > Not when the adult is a sadistic moron, you don't. That way lies the door to all kinds of abuse, including that of Umbridge. Once you start, "just do what 'X' says because they're 'X'" your into a very, very deadly situation. Also, I might point out that Dumbledore has no such attitude. He admits that he was wrong to appoint Snape, thus backhandedly admitting that Harry was in some sense right in his failure to work with the man. > Just how many people have to tell Harry before he gets it? They all > told him, not just Snape and DD. Even Sirius told him. Harry > wouldn't listen to anyone. Hermione isn't the only *little know it > all* this time around. > And why should he listen to anyone, as they were quite pointedly failing to attempt to understand his situation and help? Because they're "adults?" That's good for a belly laugh. > > And the bottom line is, of course, if Harry had listened and done > what was expected of him we wouldn't have a story would we? We > wouldn't have such a keen illustration of what can happen when we > are led astray by the forces of evil. Oh, now this is REALLY a stretch. Failure of communication between adult and teenager being led astray by the forces of evil? I'm sure my mother and father never knew how many times they supped with Satan! We wouldn't have such a good > illustration of the importance of stopping and thinking first before > we act. We wouldn't have an example of why we should listen to the > voice of reason over emotion. Now there is a lesson Snape can > give. Excuse me, I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type for the tears. Snape, the voice of reason over emotion? I guess when you discount, oh -- pretty much everything about him, that might have an extreme outside chance of being vaguely true. > > I know that we all love Harry and he is a kid, and has been through > a lot, but we really can't let him off the hook here. Of course we can. Dumbledore has it right in taking the blame on himself. Despite some tempting symbolism, Dumbledore is NOT God. He's an old man with too much on his mind, a surprisingly naive view of human nature, and a streak of arrogance that makes him think he has the right to meddle in other people's lives. He can and does screw up royally. And in OOTP, he screwed up more than royally -- he screwed up on an Imperial scale. It broke my > heart to see Harry mess up so badly. But I think the author did > this to help kids understand that even a really serious mistake can > be forgiven and life can go on. > It broke my heart to seach such an abysmal mess of a book after JKR's first four triumphs. JKR is not trying to help kids do anything. She is not trying to help adults do anything. She is not trying to teach anything to anybody. She is trying to tell a story. In this case, as phoenixgod has pointed out, it's a story about otherwise smart people like Dumbledore who inexplicably act like utter idiots in a particularly tense and important situation. One can only hope they manage to find some brains before they manage to screw things up worse (although since we have two whole books to go yet, they may very well not). Lupinlore From magistera at gmail.com Sat Jun 4 06:27:57 2005 From: magistera at gmail.com (magistera_coi) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 06:27:57 -0000 Subject: JKR and Inconsistency (was:Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130025 Betsy Hp: > Hmm, I know others on the list think Snape should have made the > connection between his werewolf studies and Lupin. But I disagree. > For one thing, Snape's battle seems to have been mainly with Sirius > and James. They're the ones he would have been snooping around > after. Lupin, as prefect and as someone who obviously saw little > amusing in the way James and Sirius treated Snape, would have > garnered very little notice from Snape, IMO. Mags (jumping in because this is one of my hobbyhorses): Speaking as one of those people, albeit a newbie - It's not just that he was studying werewolves. It's also the things that James, Sirius & Remus say in the Pensieve scene. I mean, even if you posit that Snape didn't actually hear the comments (which personally I think is problematic, unless Pensieves aren't all that accurate and the memory is colored by Snape's later discovery of Remus' secret) - they make three references to it in - what? twenty minutes, maybe? They're just not that careful about keeping it quiet - Remus does shush James once, but he jokes about it even more openly himself (and in a crowd, no less). So even if Snape didn't overhear that particular conversation, if he was really following them around (and in particular, trying to find out where Remus went "every month", as Remus says), it seems like he would have overheard similar exchanges. A couple of references like that, and noticing that the person in question disappears once a month, and it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to put it together. It just seems to me that there's something odd about the whole sequence of events. I'm torn on whether I think that a) Snape knew what was up when he went to the Shack, b) Pensieves are only as accurate as human memory, or c) the Prank actually happened before the Pensieve scene; but it seems to me that one of those things must be true, and (a) strikes me as the most likely. -Mags From Vivamus at TaprootTech.com Sat Jun 4 09:28:21 2005 From: Vivamus at TaprootTech.com (Vivamus) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 05:28:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] scary MoM possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200506040528851.SM00752@devbox> No: HPFGUIDX 130026 DU getting credit for the DADA OWLs has been discussed before. IMO, JKR is the story goddess; she can do it that way if she wants, but I wouldn't like how far it stretches credibility. Politicians are slippery characters, and it is hard to say what the people will do when enough spin has been put on the truth, so she *could* make it believable that DU gets the job. OTOH, DU attempted an Unforgivable on a student in front of witnesses, she tortured many students with obvious pleasure -- including one for no reason other than his telling the truth, and she went on a rampage to seize total control of Hogwarts, oust DD, and quell news about LV's return. When it finally came out that LV was back, all these things caused the one *truly* unforgivable sin for a political lackey: destruction of one's boss' career. Depending on how fast Fudge was voted out of office, he probably had plenty of time to make sure she was properly "rewarded" for doing this to him. How nasty would he be? That is the real question. I'm thinking that Fudge would probably not dump her in Azkaban, but would probably do something along the lines of disgracing her by stripping her pension, stripping her rank, and firing her. With nowhere to go and nothing to lose, that puts her in a perfect position to be recruited by the DEs and provide a lot of inside information to them about the MoM. Vivamus > -----Original Message----- > From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > [mailto:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of leb2323 > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 4:14 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] scary MoM possibility > > Reading all of these book 6 predictions has made my brain > spin in some unpleasant directions. > > One of my predictions was that Umbridge would get credit for > the inordinately high pass rate for DADA owls which was > really because of Harry's tutoring in the DA. But, to take > that a step further . . . > > What if Umbridge is made the new MoM because the ministry is > looking for someone strong in DADA and they mistakenly think > her the expert? > Just gives you the shivers thinking about it. > > Does anyone else think this may be a possibility? > leb From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 12:41:28 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:41:28 -0000 Subject: Clues to Books Six and Seven Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130027 I've searched the archives for discussion of JKR's statement that she was surprised that the third movie contained clues to book six and seven that were not written in POA. Has this topic been discussed? Thanks. From cottell at dublin.ie Sat Jun 4 13:15:04 2005 From: cottell at dublin.ie (muscatel1988) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 13:15:04 -0000 Subject: Clues to Books Six and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130028 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: > I've searched the archives for discussion of JKR's statement that she > was surprised that the third movie contained clues to book six and > seven that were not written in POA. Has this topic been discussed? > Thanks. I'm sure it has, and I'm pretty sure the Elves might say it was OT, so they're welcome to scrub this response. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2004/0504-usatoday-puig.htm From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jun 4 14:13:49 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:13:49 -0000 Subject: DADA OWLs (was scary MoM possibility) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130029 Leb wrote: > > One of my predictions was that Umbridge would get credit for the > inordinately high pass rate for DADA owls which was really because of > Harry's tutoring in the DA. But, to take that a step further . . . > > What if Umbridge is made the new MoM because the ministry is looking > for someone strong in DADA and they mistakenly think her the expert? > Just gives you the shivers thinking about it. Potioncat: I don't think there will be a high pass rate for DADA this year. Harry only instructed a small number of 5th years. The previous year Crouch! Moody taught all 5th years and the previous year Lupin taught all 5th years. So I would think we would see a trend of rising scores over this 3 year period: first in Lupin's year, higher in Crouch!Moody's year (they had 2 good teachers in a row) and possibly an actual drop in this year, with a small number of students scoring exceptionally high. (Those who had Lupin, C!M and Harry.) Although keep in mind, the DA may have done much better in the practical portion than in the theory portion of the test. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Jun 4 14:24:35 2005 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:24:35 -0000 Subject: JKR and Inconsistency (was:Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130030 > Betsy Hp: > Except that's not the sole reason Snape wants to feed Sirius to the > dementors. It's not pure tit for tat. Snape believes that Sirius > betrayed James and Lily, murdered Peter and the muggles, and came to > Hogwarts for the sole purpose of murdering Harry. As far as Snape > is concerned Sirius is continuing down a path he started way back in > school. Yes, Snape is thrilled to finally see Sirius get his, but > he's also convinced that Sirius is guilty of the crimes he's been > accused of. (Keep in mind that Lupin is quite prepared to kill Peter > then and there for those exact same crimes. And Peter is protesting > too.) Eloise: Oh, yes, Snape's convinced that Sirius is guilty of all that (as I've argued strongly in the past against those who think Snape is solely out for personal revenge). But he only needs to take him back to the castle to get his just desserts. "Vengeance is very sweet," Snaped breathed at Black. "how I hoped I would be the one to catch you". At that particular moment, it *is* personal vengeance that is on Snape's mind. It's also the personal experience that convinces him of Sirius' and Lupin's guilt (it's the event that he's used to suggest to Dumbledore that Lupin isn't trustworthy and hence he has presumably been brooding on it all year). In any case, it doesn't alter the case that we have two parallel scenarios: Sirius attepts to feed Snape to a werewolf, Snape attempts to feed Sirius to the Dementors. It makes a nice balance. > > >>Eloise: > >The snooping around after MWWP is the superficial reason we are > given for the initial resentment between them (which I quite agree > might have a deeper cause).< > > Betsy Hp: > Well, no. Not the *initial* resentment anyway. At least in my > opinion, JKR does a good job of showing that these two (Snape and > Sirius) had not liked each other for a good long while. I was > always under the impression that the snooping around was *because* > of a mutual dislike, not the cause of it. Eloise: I don't think we can argue this one conclusively either way, actually. Interestingly I'm involved in a discussion on another list where precisely the opposite point has been put to me: that we have no knowledge of the chronology or substance of the enmity between them (granted this comes from someone who doesn't trust a word Dumbldeore says). I certainly believe Snape and James hated each other from day one (or possibly even earlier) but it's not clear when Sirius and Lupin come into it. > > >>Eloise: > >Unfortunately, the snooping around *ought* to have alerted Snape to > what he might face. It's compounded in OoP by having Snape reading > about werewolves, a detail surely meant to remind us of the > snooping, the resentment, but inconsistent with his decision to > enter the tunnel.< > > Betsy Hp: > Hmm, I know others on the list think Snape should have made the > connection between his werewolf studies and Lupin. But I disagree. Eloise: This has been answered by Mags in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130025 If Snape set the werewolf homework in an attempt to expose Lupin and Hermione realised, then surely Snape, two school years further down the line, snooping after MWPP and noticing that Lupin disappeared every month (did he really not notice it was full moon?) should also have put two and two together. Again, I think JKR has been giving us deliberate parallels. Betsy Hp: > Frankly, we are still missing some very key factors to what happened > the night of the prank. So I think it's a bit early in the game to > start leveling charges of inconsistency at JKR. So far, I think > she's done a bang up job. :) Eloise: I'm not "leveling charges", just saying that I think its inevitable that such inconsistencies creep in, particularly when you just want to give enough to hint at a background without going laboriously into detail. I take comfort from knowing that I'm not the only one to find such inconsistencies and if JKR manages to finish the series tying up every single on of them, she will have my undying admiration. ~Eloise From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 14:25:51 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:25:51 -0000 Subject: scary MoM possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323" wrote: > One of my predictions was that Umbridge would get credit for the > inordinately high pass rate for DADA owls which was really because of > Harry's tutoring in the DA. But, to take that a step further . . . > > What if Umbridge is made the new MoM because the ministry is looking > for someone strong in DADA and they mistakenly think her the expert? > Just gives you the shivers thinking about it. Heh. I think it would make an amusing sub-plot for her to *try* to take credit. I get this picture of Hermione and Lupin (and possibly, Arthur) coaching Harry about his political responsibilities and the possibilities open to him due to his fame/notoriety. Or one of my favorite daydreams about a possible scene in HBP: Hermione squaring off against Umbridge in a public debate. One where Umbridge can't take points or assign detention. Amiable Dorsai From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 14:36:16 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:36:16 -0000 Subject: Clues to Books Six and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: > I've searched the archives for discussion of JKR's statement that she > was surprised that the third movie contained clues to book six and > seven that were not written in POA. Has this topic been discussed? > Thanks. As I remember, it was that Alphonse, the director, wanted Hermione to slug Draco in a graveyard b/c it would look cool. JKR told him that, no, the graveyard was over *there,* somewhere else, so he couldn't use that, and that the graveyard would be inportant in 6 or 7. Odd that no one has used that in the HBP prediction contest yet. TK -- TigerPatronus From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jun 4 14:45:08 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:45:08 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130033 Phoenixgod: Valky: Wow, Phoenix, I totally agree with almost all your points in that post.. Except for just this one, so I just need to ask you about it. Tonks wrote: > > And the bottom line is, of course, if Harry had listened and done > > what was expected of him we wouldn't have a story would we? > Phoenixgod wrote: > And if Dumbledore were competent the world wouldn't have to > repeatedly rely on a scarred kid to save the school every year, but > there we are. > Valky: Ouch! That takes a really hard line with Dumbledore, personally. I mean, I adore the Marauders and they are pretty hotshot themselves, so is it fair to say that DD is the only one who might potentially take this burden from Harry? To be honest I think that DD, James Lupin and Sirius, Lily the Longbottoms, the list goes on of strong powerful wizardkind who have done their plain darndest to take matters into their own hands. Somehow someway Harry was chosen for the job, despite the sincere efforts of Dumbledore. Its a sad but true reality in the plot, and I really can't blame the old bloke for that. Oh By the way Phoenix.... Tonks wrote: > >We wouldn't have an example of why we should listen to the > > voice of reason over emotion. Now there is a lesson Snape can > > give. > Phoenixgod: > You're kidding right? You cannot possibly mean that Severus Snape > should serve as an example of emotional control and the triumph of > reason over emotion. the same guy who hates a child he's never met > based on looking like his high school bully father? the same guy who > thinks that humiliating childern is jolly good fun? That guy? > > unless you mean as an object lesson, ie 'never turn out like that > guy' > Valky: Woohoo here here! I don't think that Snapes voice of reason came through all that clearly through the ice cold unfeeling barricade he put up around it. IMHO what phoenixgod posited is fair to say, Harry was desperate to have a reason that he could believe in, that Occlumency was a hope for the good of something. Snape represents it as a self effacing barely necessary precaution, which is hardly the fair truth or a voice of reason. At least Hermione expresses a reasonable concern for what might happen if he doesn't successfully learn it, Snape as good as rebukes the notion that anything will happen. He even directly rebukes notions that Harry would be of any interest to Voldemort. From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 14:56:32 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:56:32 -0000 Subject: Clues to Books Six and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130034 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: > > I've searched the archives for discussion of JKR's statement that > she > > was surprised that the third movie contained clues to book six and > > seven that were not written in POA. Has this topic been discussed? > > Thanks. > > As I remember, it was that Alphonse, the director, wanted Hermione to > slug Draco in a graveyard b/c it would look cool. JKR told him that, > no, the graveyard was over *there,* somewhere else, so he couldn't use > that, and that the graveyard would be inportant in 6 or 7. > > Odd that no one has used that in the HBP prediction contest yet. > > TK -- TigerPatronus Yes, that information was also discussed in the interview JKR gave with the producers of the POA DVD. A "bonus" disk 2 is included, in which JKR discusses that she was amazed at certain things that were "added" to the POA movie (with no help from her!) and stated that fans will look back after reading books six and seven and say that significant clues were put in the third movie foreshadowing the last two books, which according to this interview, was apparently just an amazing coincidence! Perhaps I should direct future postings regarding this topic to the movies group, I think it might be crossing over...thanks! From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 15:35:02 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 15:35:02 -0000 Subject: Clues to Books Six and Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130035 Cindy ------------- discussion of JKR's statement that she was surprised that the third movie contained clues to book six and seven that were not written in POA. Has this topic been discussed? tinglinger I thought that the biggest clue BY FAR in the POA movie was how fond Lupin was of Lily. Lupin seems to have lost far more than his Marauder buddies due to the Godric's Hollow disaster. Since movie discussion is somewhat off-topic due to the fear of Movie Pollution, I will post more on Lupin's loss and the consequences thereof in potterplots before the weekend is done... tinglinger whose yahoo group potterplots is always open for theories http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots check it out..... From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 4 15:38:41 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 15:38:41 -0000 Subject: "Some Won't Like It" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130036 I've got a broader take on what that means. JKR said that in this book we would start to get the answers. Some people have taken very dogmatic positions on what the answers ought to be, and been quite forthright in saying that no alternative interpretation would satisfy them. Pippin From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 16:23:34 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 16:23:34 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130037 Tonks said: > And the bottom line is, of course, if Harry had listened and done > what was expected of him we wouldn't have a story would we? We > wouldn't have such a keen illustration of what can happen when we > are led astray by the forces of evil. Lupinlore replied: Oh, now this is REALLY a stretch. Failure of communication between adult and teenager being led astray by the forces of evil? I'm sure my mother and father never knew how many times they supped with Satan! Tonks now: Ah, Lupinlore, I know that you like to fight for the fun of it and I am not rising to the bait except to say that you misunderstood what I meant here. Harry being lead astray by the forces of evil, means the connection that he has with LV in his mind and the way that LV used that against Harry. And this happened because Harry did not do what he knew he should have done. Of course, I disagree with everything else you have said, but what else is new. ;-) OK, I'll give you a tidbit Poor communication is no excuse. There was enough communication for Harry to know what he was to do. Harry is still responsible for his choices and actions and no amount of trying to blame someone else is going to change that. Period. Tonks_op From vidarfe at start.no Sat Jun 4 16:37:02 2005 From: vidarfe at start.no (vidar_fe) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 16:37:02 -0000 Subject: Percy's future In-Reply-To: <001101c5679d$91c12d90$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130038 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Thorburn" wrote: > We have all, I know, been conjecturing who will be next to go in > HBP. One or two seem to have suggested Percy. I personally feel > Jo would kill him off if it was a case of his refusing to have the grace to recognise his mistakes and apologise to his family. In chapter 9 of OotP, we notice Molly's state when she sees the dead figures of her family. During the subsequent conversation, she confided her concern that Percy's death would occur whilst they > were still at loggerheads. I, however, feel that Percy will have > seen the error of his ways by the next book. Let's face it, he > can't stick to his attitude that Harry's deluded, now that Fudge > has seen Voldemort himself or now it's been in the papers. > > Regarding Charley and Bill, I feel that their death could be > possible, but I feel Molly could even be considered. After all, Harry's now coming to consider her as a mother figure. > > Derek Yes, I can definitely imagine Percy seeing 'the error of his ways'. At least he will admit to himself that he was wrong. However, I can not imagine him admitting it to anyone else, especially his parents. He's far to proud to come back with his tail between his legs. (Even though he will be received with open arms, and he knows it.) IMHO, the only way for him to redeem himself his to die, saving the life of another, most likely one of his brothers's or Harry's. Vidar From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 17:14:44 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 17:14:44 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130039 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > Valky: > Woohoo here here! I don't think that Snapes voice of reason came > through all that clearly through the ice cold unfeeling barricade he put up around it. IMHO what phoenixgod posited is fair to say, Harry was desperate to have a reason that he could believe in, that > Occlumency was a hope for the good of something. Snape represents it as a self effacing barely necessary precaution, which is hardly the fair truth or a voice of reason. At least Hermione expresses a > reasonable concern for what might happen if he doesn't successfully > learn it, Snape as good as rebukes the notion that anything will > happen. He even directly rebukes notions that Harry would be of any > interest to Voldemort. Tonks translating Tonks: What I was saying was that Snape is an example of turning off your emotions. Mind over emotions. Snape is the unemotional one. Now I know that some here don't see him that way, but some of us do. He turns off his emotions and presents this cold exterior. I am not suggesting that Harry become like Snape in that way. I am suggesting that Harry can see in Snape's behavior the idea that one must turn off strong emotions. (Which except for a couple of times Snape is able to do.) Hasn't Harry been told that strong emotions are how the Dark Lord can manipulate someone? (I'd like to say to Harry: "You know Harry, sometimes we can learn even from those we dislike.") Also to explore what you have said about Snape downplaying Harry's importance, etc. I think that what we might possible have here is the idea that you don't give the Dark Lord the fuel that he needs to manipulate you. In other words: Don't think about the Dark Lord, or that you might be important to him. "You are neither special nor important" Snape says. The idea is humility. The Dark Lord uses your pride and sense of self importance. Yes Harry is important to the fight against LV, but to fight LV he must not feel that he is the only one even when he is the only one. (Imagine what a burden it would have been for Harry to know about the prophesy earlier in his life.) And I know I am not expressing myself clearly here and someone is bound to misunderstand it. In Christian terms one humbles oneself so that the power of God can work in and through you, but you know, really *know* that you are as the saying goes *a worm and no man*. That is the idea that Snape is trying to teach Harry, directly or indirectly, IMHO. ;-) Harry must be humble. Being humble means being honest with yourself. And I think that for the most part Harry is. Snape fears that Harry is not humble, perhaps because this is one of the way that the Dark Lord trapped Snape, and Snape is projecting here. Or maybe Snape thinks that Harry really is neither special nor important, but ... well who can fathom the mind of a potions master? Tonks_op From buckbeak1391 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 12:43:37 2005 From: buckbeak1391 at yahoo.com (buckbeak1391) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:43:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Flying Motorcycle In-Reply-To: <002901c563af$6b209050$0201a8c0@bettysue> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130040 > buckbeak1391 wrote: > > Also, Buckbeak seemed very trusting of Sirius when he > > escaped on his back, even though Sirius doesn't bow. > > Betty wrote: > I don't think it's possible to bow when crawling out a window. Still, a hippogriff is proud, and it would most likely be dangerous if not respected. "buckbeak1391" From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 4 16:42:10 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 16:42:10 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130041 "madorganization" wrote: > in the scene I was referring to, > Harry doesn't know these things yet. I don't know the scene you're referring to but from page 1 Harry knew he had done more than any wizard in living memory, if he was honest with himself he must have known that. And from page 1 he knew he was being treated like dirt and he figured he didn't deserve that and it made him angry. It would make me angry too. > He doesn't know that it will lead to the > death of his godfather (which really, is > just a result of Harry not listening when > people /do/ tell him things You are the one not listening, you are not listening to Dumbledore, he said it was almost entirely his fault alone and I think he was quite correct. And Dumbledore told him very little, most of the time it was Snape saying Dumbledore said this or that; and as the book progressed Harry had less and less reason to trust in Dumbledore's judgment and even less reason to trust Snape. > It's not the anger of Harry that bothers > me. It's his superior attitude towards > those who he knows care about him. But Harry doesn't act superior, he just had the thought that he has done more than they, AND HE HAS. Eggplant From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 19:08:17 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:08:17 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130042 > Alla: > > > "Sirius is brave, loyal, reckless, embittered and slightly > unbalanced by his long stay in Azkaban." > > The word which I am looking at here is loyal. If loyalty is one of > Sirius' determining qualities, isn't it possible that he did not > actually betray Remus or at least was not planning consciously to > betray Remus and again, maybe there is something about Prank we are > not privy to yet. a_svirn: He's loyal to the Potters, but he doesn't seem to care much for anyone else. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 19:44:55 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:44:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > > > > > > Alla: > > > > > I said that Snape did not deserve to BE provoked, but as > > > far as we know nobody forced him to go into the Shack. > > > > > a_svirn: > > And who says that he was "forced" to go there? Not even Snape clamed > > that. > > > Valky: > I think Alla's point is that if Severus was not forced to go to the > Shack against his will, then he must shoulder blame as far as at least > making the decision to go there. a_svirn: Well, in GoF Voldemort "forced" Harry to come to the Graveyard, while in OOP he just gave Harry information and waited patiently for Harry to "freely" make up his mind. Does it mean that Voldemort mellowed a bit over the year? That his behaviour in OOP is less murderous than in GoF? And if not, why we should apply different criteria to Sirius? If he *wanted* to kill Snape it doesn't matter in the least whether he "forced" him or lured him into the Shack playing on his weaknesses. In fact the latter seems even more cynical, especially considering that the betrayal of his friend was involved. If he didn't intend to kill or even to play a prank and the whole business was an accident ? well, then there is nothing more to say. It doesn't seem likely though. > Valky: > > I agree with that, and this is, in most ways, how I read the derisive > noise that Sirius makes when Snape begins his monologue about the > "prank". I don't think Sirius is expressing continued amusement at the > prank a_svirn: Because it wasn't a prank. It would have been a prank if James had been in on it. But if Lupin to be believed he wasn't, which makes it look more like a murder attempt. > Valky: I think he is expressing his contempt for the whole "I am > completely blameless and innocent" line from Severus. a_svirn: And when did ever Snape say that? > Valky: > Sirius does not think Sevvie was blameless, a_svirn: Of course, he wouldn't! But then he blamed Snape for the very fact of his existence. > Valky: and apparently neither did > Dumbledore. a_svirn: And how is that apparent? > Valky: > Also in respect to my point about James forgiving him, I think James > needed to forgive the mess that Sirius got him and Lupin into. James > would have needed to protect Snape from Transformed Lupin *without* > giving away his animagii form. Besides the fact that I really doubt > that James, in spite of his cockiness, didn't care about the danger > Lupin had been put in either. So James had some things to forgive > Sirius for, and he managed to. The entire Marauders crew would simply > have to be a bunch of murderous malignants for it to be remotely > possible that Snape was completely innocent. Is anyone prepared to > argue flat out that they are? > a_svirn: Innocent of what? Do you blame him for being a "poisonous toadstool" as Ron put it? Or do you blame him for being nearly killed? From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 20:02:18 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:02:18 -0000 Subject: JKR and Inconsistency (was:Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130044 > Eloise: > > Oh, yes, Snape's convinced that Sirius is guilty of all that (as I've > argued strongly in the past against those who think Snape is solely > out for personal revenge). But he only needs to take him back to the > castle to get his just desserts. > > "Vengeance is very sweet," Snaped breathed at Black. "how I hoped I > would be the one to catch you". > > At that particular moment, it *is* personal vengeance that is on > Snape's mind. a_svirn: And what was on Sirius's mind all that year? Also vengeance, I am afraid. He could just as well have taken Pettygrew up to the Castle, yet he was going to kill him in the presence of three children, and only because of Harry's interference he didn't. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 20:14:44 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:14:44 -0000 Subject: JKR and Inconsistency (was:Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130045 >>Betsy Hp: >Hmm, I know others on the list think Snape should have made the connection between his werewolf studies and Lupin. But I disagree.< >>Mags (jumping in because this is one of my hobbyhorses): >Speaking as one of those people, albeit a newbie - It's not just that he was studying werewolves. It's also the things that James, Sirius & Remus say in the Pensieve scene.< Betsy Hp: Welcome to the list. I'm glad you jumped in. :) I *am* going to posit that Snape did not hear what the Mauraders said to each other. Because if he had it would have been game over for Lupin. (Same if anyone else had overheard what they were saying -- *very* careless of the boys, but completely in character.) One word to a well placed parent (and Snape, per canon, is connected to some high placed families) and pressure would have been brought to bare on Dumbledore and Lupin would have been out. (Dumbledore may well have lost his position as Headmaster as well.) I'm not going to get into how pensieves work, 'cause I don't really know and it's something I just take the author's word on. (Lazy, I admit, but I've got other windmills to tilt at. ) But we know for a fact that Snape is *not* paying attention to the Mauraders. In fact the only reason he settles so close to them is because he has no idea that they're there until he's attacked. >>Mags: >So even if Snape didn't overhear that particular conversation, if he was really following them around (and in particular, trying to find out where Remus went "every month", as Remus says), it seems like he would have overheard similar exchanges. A couple of references like that, and noticing that the person in question disappears once a month, and it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to put it together.< Betsy Hp: Why would Snape know anything about where Lupin slept? And as I said upthread, Snape was more interested in what James and Sirius got up to than Lupin, IMO, who as far as we've been shown had little to do with the war James and Sirius were waging on Snape. As to what Lupin tells Harry, I don't trust he's telling the whole truth. Throughout PoA he holds back information and uses dribs and drabs of information to misdirect people. He tells Harry, in PoA, that Snape hated James because of James' quidditch skills. As we learn in OotP, there's a lot more to it. Plus, I just cannot see Snape, even at fifteen, being stupid enough to try and take on a full grown werewolf by himself. Even Harry would hesitate to do something so foolhardy, and he's suffers a lot more of the "fools rush in" syndrom than I imagine Snape ever did. (Of course I could well be proved wrong. ) >>Mags: >It just seems to me that there's something odd about the whole sequence of events. I'm torn on whether I think that a) Snape knew what was up when he went to the Shack, b) Pensieves are only as accurate as human memory, or c) the Prank actually happened before the Pensieve scene; but it seems to me that one of those things must be true, and (a) strikes me as the most likely.< Betsy Hp: I seriously doubt (c) is true. Otherwise Sirius and James are even bigger jerks than they appear. And Snape would have been *way* more leery of Lupin. But yes, the sequence of events *is* odd. Because we still don't have the full story. I think it's Potioncat who referred to the prank as a jigsaw puzzle, and I think that's an apt analogy. Until we have all the pieces the picture won't make sense. >>Eloise: >If Snape set the werewolf homework in an attempt to expose Lupin and Hermione realised, then surely Snape, two school years further down the line, snooping after MWPP and noticing that Lupin disappeared every month (did he really not notice it was full moon?) should also have put two and two together. Again, I think JKR has been giving us deliberate parallels.< Betsy Hp: Yes, there are parallels, but I don't think they are meant to be exact. eg There are parallels between the Maurader generation and Harry's generation, but no character *exactly* parallels another. And if Hermione was the *only* student who picked up on the essay assignment, as a third year, doesn't that show a certain above normal intelligence on her part? Hogwarts students have been studying werewolves for decades, I would imagine. Why is Snape the only student who *should* have figured Lupin's secret out? (Because, again, I don't know why Snape would realize that Lupin wasn't sleeping in his dormroom on full-moon nights.) >>Eloise: >Oh, yes, Snape's convinced that Sirius is guilty of all that (as I've argued strongly in the past against those who think Snape is solely out for personal revenge). But he only needs to take him back to the castle to get his just desserts. >At that particular moment, it *is* personal vengeance that is on Snape's mind. It's also the personal experience that convinces him of Sirius' and Lupin's guilt (it's the event that he's used to suggest to Dumbledore that Lupin isn't trustworthy and hence he has presumably been brooding on it all year). >In any case, it doesn't alter the case that we have two parallel scenarios: Sirius attepts to feed Snape to a werewolf, Snape attempts to feed Sirius to the Dementors. It makes a nice balance.< Betsy Hp: It *does* make a nice balance, and it does shape the distrust Snape has towards all the Mauraders. Actually, I agree with everything you've said here. It is personal, Snape does want to see Sirius die (just as Lupin and Sirius want to see Peter die). I don't see how any of this falls under the catagory of author inconsistencies though. >>Betsy Hp: >At least in my opinion, JKR does a good job of showing that these two (Snape and Sirius) had not liked each other for a good long while.< >>Eloise: >I don't think we can argue this one conclusively either way, actually.< Betsy Hp: Well, I do think a lot of hints have been dropped, especially in OotP, that James and Snape practically disliked each other on sight. And we know that Sirius was a very good friend to James. So it makes sense that Sirius would dislike Snape too. However I agree that we don't know anything for absolute sure. We don't have enough information, yet. But again, I fail to see where JKR has done a poor job. Until we have the full tale I don't see how we can point to various ambiguities and say this is the fault of JKR's plot inconsistencies. Because there very well could be information she's waiting to tell us (I believe she's said books 6 & 7 will be all about answers) that will clarify things beautifully. >>Eloise: >I'm not "leveling charges", just saying that I think its inevitable that such inconsistencies creep in, particularly when you just want to give enough to hint at a background without going laboriously into detail. I take comfort from knowing that I'm not the only one to find such inconsistencies and if JKR manages to finish the series tying up every single on of them, she will have my undying admiration.< Betsy Hp: Oh, there are tons of "inconsistencies". That's why there's so much debate going on. But I think they're all quite deliberate on JKR's end. She knows exactly where Snape stands and why he is the way he is. She knows if Lupin is ESE or not, and she knows how Draco's story will end. But she doesn't want us to know. Not yet anyway. Just like Agatha Christie knew who dunnit but waited until the final chapter to let everyone in on the secret. Of course my biggest fear is that JKR will unveil her plot and it will make no kind of sense. However, I have a pretty strong faith that my worst fears will not come true and most if not all inconsistencies will be cleared up. At this point though I stand by my statement that it's still too early to blame the inconsistencies on author failure. Betsy Hp From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 20:40:47 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:40:47 -0000 Subject: The Dark Mark - You've Got Dirt Under Your Nose, by the way, Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130046 I know that many of you might consider this a most egregious example of micro-reading, but FOUR TIMES in ten pages, noticed by 4 different characters, and Jo's love of wordplay maakes this worthy of mention. Maybe it's worth something or maybe it's just our "dirty" little secret till Book 7.... I wonder if Ron's smudged nose is an omen of death, a la the Dark Mark, or just as a symbol of being below ground.... (SS-95) Harry sat down next to the window where, half-hidden, he could watch the [Weasleys] on the platform and hear what they were saying. Their mother had just taken out her handkerchief." "Ron, you've got something on your nose." (SS-98) The door of the compartment slid open and [Ron] came in. "anyone sitting there?" he asked, .... Harry shook his head and the boy sat down....Harry saw he still had a black mark on his nose (SS-110) "All right --- I only came in here because people outside are behaving childishly, racing up and down the corridors," said Hermione in a sniffy voice."And you've got dirt on your nose, by the way, did you know?" (SS-114) "The Sorting Hat ceremony will take place in a few minutes in front of the rest of the school. I suggest you all smarten yourselves up as much as you can while you are waiting." Her (i.e. McGonagall's) eyes lingered for a moment on Neville's cload, which was fastened under his left ear, and on Ron's smudged nose...." Comments? tinglinger who needs to get out more, but is currently too busy rereading SORCERER'S STONE and posting to potterplots http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/ From vidarfe at start.no Sat Jun 4 21:04:01 2005 From: vidarfe at start.no (vidar_fe) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:04:01 -0000 Subject: Quidditch and Firebolt In-Reply-To: <001701c56615$d0bd4b20$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130047 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Thorburn" wrote: > As a blind person and great fan of the books, I have just finished listening > to 'OOTP' for the third time (I managed to get it with my Christmas money) > and am asking myself whether Harry will get his Firebolt back in the next > book and also permission to compete in Quidditch once again. The last > reference to his broom we had was in Chapter 32 when Umbridge told him it > was still in the dungeons, where it had been moved after Fred and George's > escape. Jinny assured Harry that, the way she saw it, his ban from > Quidditch was only whilst Umbridge was at the school. > > Derek I can't imagine any of Umbridge's rules, bans etc staying in force. Why would Dumbledore allow it? From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 21:29:38 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:29:38 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130048 >>Lupinlore: >I'll have to agree with Phoenixgod here, I don't recall Harry getting any draft papers along the way.< Betsy Hp: "They're saying he tried to kill the Potter's son, Harry. But -- he couldn't. He couldn't kill that little boy. No one knows why, or how, but they're saying that when he couldn't kill Harry Potter, Voldemort's powers somehow broke -- and that's why he's gone." (SS paperback p. 12) "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches [...] born as the seventh month dies [...] The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies.... (OotP scholastic hardback p.841) >>Lupinlore: >I also don't recall anybody giving Dumbledore a crown and sceptre and proclaiming him high king of all wizards and witches.< Betsy Hp: "Everyone knows you're the only one You-Know- oh all right, *Voldemort*, was frightened of." "You flatter me," said Dumbledore calmly. (SS p.11) "Albus Dumbledore (currently headmaster of Hogwarts). Considered by many the greatest wizard of modern times, Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945..." (ibid pp.102-103) "Voldemort has returned," Dumbledore repeated. "If you accept that fact straightaway, Fudge, and take the necessary measures, we may still be able to save the situation." [...] "You -- you cannot be serious!" Fudge gasped, shaking his head and retreating further from Dumbledore." [...] "If your determination to shut your eyes will carry you as far as this, Cornelius," said Dumbledore, "we have reached a parting of the ways. You must act as you see fit. And I -- I shall act as I see fit." [...] "The only one against whom I intend to work," said Dumbledore, "is Lord Voldemort. If you are against him, then we remain, Cornelius, on the same side." (GoF scholastic hardback pp.707-709) >>Tonks: >Also Harry is not yet an adult and should still do as he is told by an adult in authority over him.< >>Lupinlore: >Not when the adult is a sadistic moron, you don't.< Betsy Hp: I don't recall Dumbledore ever being referred to as a sadistic moron. "Listen to me Harry," he said urgently, "you must study Occlumency as hard as you can, do you understand me? Do everything Professor Sanpe tells you and practice it particularly every night before sleeping so that you can close your mind to bad dreams -- you will understand why soon enough but you must promise me --" (OotP p.622) >>Lupinlore: >And why should he listen to anyone, as they were quite pointedly failing to attempt to understand his situation and help? Because they're "adults?" That's good for a belly laugh.< Betsy Hp: You'll have to point out some examples of adults failing to listen to Harry and trying to help him. I've looked through the books and yes, Sirius lets him down when he first shares his fears, but Dumbledore and Snape are specifically attacking what most worries him -- being possessed by Voldemort. And Harry *does* realize that's what the Occlumency is for. He says as much to Snape. Only Harry decides that it's worth being possessed by Voldemort if he can only keep having his nifty dream. Despite all the adults' (and Hermione's) attempts to tell him that the dreams are dangerous. >>Lupinlore: >Oh, now this is REALLY a stretch. Failure of communication between adult and teenager being led astray by the forces of evil? I'm sure my mother and father never knew how many times they supped with Satan! < Betsy Hp: Well, I *am* giving Harry the benefit of the doubt here and supposing that his highly stupid insistence on keeping up with the dream after he *knows* that Voldemort is aware of their particular link is partially because of Voldemort's subtle influence. Though if you read through all of Harry's dreams (as Amanga Geist does in her post here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129474 ) it seems fairly obvious that Voldemort *is* influencing Harry. >>Lupinlore: >Excuse me, I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type for the tears. Snape, the voice of reason over emotion? I guess when you discount, oh -- pretty much everything about him, that might have an extreme outside chance of being vaguely true.< Betsy Hp: After you finish laughing, Lupinlore, I'd love to hear your explanations as to the many times Snape has saved Harry's life, the reason he took part in the Occlumency lessons in the first place, and his putting up with Sirius in order to talk to Harry about Occlumency lessons. Emotionally, as far as we know, I'm sure Snape would have rather told Sirius to stick it, and left Harry to mentally battle with Voldemort on his own. I won't say that Snape is completely in control of his emotions (witness PoA) but he's certainly not as ruled by them as, say, Sirius. And if Harry had contained his own emotions, he may have thought to check with Snape before flying off to the Ministry. >>Tonks: >I know that we all love Harry and he is a kid, and has been through a lot, but we really can't let him off the hook here.< >>Lupinlore: >Of course we can. Dumbledore has it right in taking the blame on himself.< Betsy Hp: But if that's the case than there's *no way* Harry should ever be allowed *near* the Order. If Harry is so extremely disconnected from his actions then he is far too much a child to take any part in a war. Dumbledore holds some blame, but Harry hold some blame as well. For Harry to become an adult he must recognize and atone for the mistakes he's made so that he doesn't make them again. Otherwise, he's an untrustworthy child. >>Lupinlore: >He can and does screw up royally. And in OOTP, he screwed up more than royally -- he screwed up on an Imperial scale.< Betsy Hp: Yes, Dumbledore erred, but not *that* badly. (Unless I totally misread the ending of OotP, the Order scored a bit of a victory there.) Dumbledore hesitated in telling Harry that he (Harry) is the weapon Sirius was referring to back in the beginning of OotP. I think it was a very human mistake. Who wants to tell a child they care for that they're destined to become a killer? But if Harry leans on that mistake and insists that all other mistakes flowed from that one, and that therefore he, Harry, is completely in the clear, well then Harry is refusing to grow. And there ain't nothing healthy or powerful in that. >>Lupinlore: >It broke my heart to seach such an abysmal mess of a book after JKR's first four triumphs. In this case, as phoenixgod has pointed out, it's a story about otherwise smart people like Dumbledore who inexplicably act like utter idiots in a particularly tense and important situation. One can only hope they manage to find some brains before they manage to screw things up worse (although since we have two whole books to go yet, they may very well not).< Betsy Hp: Obviously, you're entitled to your opinion, and I doubt I can change your mind. Though I do see some circular reasoning going on here. I thought you saw Dumbledore as a hopeless idiot and cold-hearted bastard from SS/PS on? That's what you've seemed to have argued in other postings regarding Dumbledore's treatment of Harry and reactions to various events, IIRC. So if you think Dumbledore was an idiot in OotP, wouldn't that be an example of JKR's consistency? Betsy Hp, who *loved* OotP, especially when it showed Dumbledore thinking on his feet, and who will continue to pimp Amanda Geist's post regarding the Occlumency lessons until all have been assimilated. heh. From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 21:47:27 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:47:27 -0000 Subject: The Dark Mark - You've Got Dirt Under Your Nose, by the way, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > > I wonder if Ron's smudged nose is an omen of death, > a la the Dark Mark, or just as a symbol of being > below ground.... >> tinglinger > I think it's more likely that it's an excellent example of continuity. TK -- TigerPatronus From llamadroid at hotmail.com Sat Jun 4 20:41:29 2005 From: llamadroid at hotmail.com (Liane) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:41:29 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130050 I have been reading the fantastic predictions with interest for a while (I'm a long-term lurker finally submitting my first post!) so thought I'd put in my two knuts worth ... >Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): >1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore - I've always said it, and it seems that lots of people have the same ideas as me! >2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I'm going to say that it's not a "who" but a "where". It sounds like the name for a pub to me, and I think that's exactly the sort of think JK would do to us! >3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I don't think there's going to be any big reveal in book 6, but I would like to learn just how much Petunia knows about the WW. >4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The Real Moody gets my vote >5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Susan bones I think (NOT Hermy!) >6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory - I think he will cause problems for the Order, and Harry especially, not fully being able to forgive him for being alive when Cedric isn't. Who needs a quiet life! >7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve - not Dumbledore's - with memories in it about the night James and Lily died. Maybe they were placed in there from Harry during the missing 24hours... >8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, we need the Harry/Snape moments! >9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? I also think Yes for this one, especially if Neville is going to be a Healer. >10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Not History but all the others (Astronomy will be gradede up because of the McGonnagal incident, and the examiners know Divination is a load of rubbish, so pass them all no matter what!) >Predictions (0-10 points each): >1. The DA will continue as a whole school society, with Harry as leader and he will be forced to allow Slytherins to join, not that Malfoy's lot will sign up, and this will lead us to meet... >2. The Good Slytherin. There will be more than one, but THE important one we learn most about will be Blaise Zabini. >3. Harry will continue to learn Occlumency and Legilimency will be added, but no longer taught by Snape (sorry, Professor Snape!). Either Moody (DADA teacher) or Dumbledore himself will take on the job. >4. Neville will become more proficient at magic now that he has his own wand, and will suprise everyone with his sudden improvments. >5. We will find out that Lupin was a spy for the Order and was always away from the other Marauders, and that is why they suspected him and let Peter be secert keeper. I love Lupin (he is a baa-ass huggybunny as one group member put it so eloquently) and can't believe that he is ESE (now ESE!McGonagall, that i can believe!! It's a fantastic theory, so can't wait to see how that plays out... not until book 7 though, when with Dumbledore out the way she will be head-mistress, and then the fun begins!!!) Well thats it, can't wait until July 16th now... From cattatra at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 4 21:36:33 2005 From: cattatra at yahoo.co.uk (cattatra) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:36:33 -0000 Subject: 4 Privet Drive; Rooms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130051 In Prisoner of Azkaban where did Aunt Marge sleep? Because there is no mention of A) Her sleeping in Harry's room instead B) Her sleeping on the sofa, etc. C) Anyone being kicked out of their room for her So where did she sleep? Do the Dursleys have a guest room, making it a four bedroomed house? If so why not put Harry in there, instead of Dudley's second bedroom? Help me out here peeps! Cattatra From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Sat Jun 4 22:14:36 2005 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:14:36 -0000 Subject: Snape/McGonagall/Neville (was: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130052 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: Snip: > As I say, I think the thing thatgets in the way of my believing McGonagall regards Snape as a friend > is his unfairness to, indeed open disdain for, her house. I find it > hard to believe that she would just wave that off and merrily stroll > arm in arm with him through the gardens on his way to abusing more > Gryffindors. [snip] Demetra: But does she really see his actions as abuse of her Gryffindors? I've pondered the question of what the other teachers think of Snape and his methods for a while. I haven't found any evidence in the books to indicate to me that the other teachers have issues with Snape as a teacher. Again, look at McGonagall's comments about Trelawney and Lockhart, her dislike of them as teachers is obvious. Furthermore, look at all of the teacher's comments about and treatment of Umbridge. I think that if the other teachers, especially McGonagall, had issues with Snape we would have seen clearer evidence by now. As for the question of *why* the other teachers seem to be OK with him ? I'm not sure, but I suspect that this may have to do with cultural differences in what methods are OK when dealing with a difficult and potentially dangerous subject matter. A couple of RL analogies come to mind. I was a nurse on a surgical unit in a University Medical Center for a number of years. This means I witnessed many "teaching moments" between medical students and/or residents and attending surgeons. Sadistic is almost a mild word to describe how the surgeons sometimes verbally assailed the residents. They would latch on to the tiniest weakness and proceed to flail the students and residents. Mind you, this behavior was totally accepted and defended as necessary to training the doctor so that they could think quickly, because in medicine you don't always have the time to go to the library and look something up. It always seemed to me that the attending surgeons particularly delighted in their sadistic behavior ? they wore it like a badge of honor. And quite frankly no one, including those who had been raked over the coals, ever complained. Of course, playing devils advocate with myself, one problem I see with this analogy, is that these residents are young men and women in their early 20's (barring the occasional Doogie Howser), not 11 to 17 year olds like the kids at Hogwarts. The other analogy probably fits better with the age range. Think about the young girls involved in competitive gymnastics. Now, this is an area I have no special knowledge of, except for occasionally watching during the Olympics. But, I do recall seeing a segment on TV about some gymnastics coaches (like Bela Karolyi, etc). They are very successful in turning out medal winning gymnasts, but the training methods are extremely harsh. These young girls are pushed to train past the appropriate point, IMO. Methods include feeding them little and raging if their weight creeps above 100 lbs. The girls often suffer from stress fractures and stunted growth. Yet there is very little criticism of these coaches or their methods from the gymnastics community. In fact, parents of budding gymnastics stars pay exorbitant amounts of money to send their children to be abused in this fashion. So while *I* find the methods objectionable, those in the industry apparently don't. Perhaps there is a similar situation going on at Hogwarts. While you and I see a problem, in the context of life at Hogwarts, the other teachers simply don't think there is anything wrong with Snape's methods. Demetra From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat Jun 4 22:18:18 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:18:18 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130053 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > You are the one not listening, you are not listening to Dumbledore, he > said it was almost entirely his fault alone and I think he was quite > correct. And Dumbledore told him very little, most of the time it was > Snape saying Dumbledore said this or that; and as the book progressed > Harry had less and less reason to trust in Dumbledore's judgment and > even less reason to trust Snape. Gerry I don't agree. Dubledore made mistakes, yes. But that does not mean Harry is blameless here. If he had used his brains, if he had paid attention to his occlumency lessons, if he had used the two-way mirror, if he had remembered Snape was a member of the order, than things would have been different. > > > It's not the anger of Harry that bothers > > me. It's his superior attitude towards > > those who he knows care about him. > > But Harry doesn't act superior, he just had the thought that he has > done more than they, AND HE HAS. Gerry And how do we know? Harry was not even alive for the largest part of LV's reign of terror. DD has founded a society to actively oppose him, he has been fighting him even now. He saved Harry's life two times, in book 1 and in book 5. Both times Harry managed to get into trouble with LV on his own and without any real need. Harry does not have clue what other people have done, and thus we have none either. Gerry From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 4 22:28:39 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 17:28:39 -0500 Subject: Changing the title because I'm tired of it, was "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. References: Message-ID: <004601c56954$c39023e0$cb58aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130054 Phoenixgod: > Funny I don't recall him being given an Auror pin or a phoenix > badge. Harry isn't a soldier and he wasn't drafted into any > organization (except maybe by destiny). Dumbledore didn't give him a > junior fledging Order of the Phoenix card. Maybe if he had, you > would have some room to stand on, but as it stands, Harry isn't > under orders to anyone other than his conscience. Harry is under no > duty to obey General Dumbledore unless the order is 'do your > homework.' Oh, come *on.* If Harry's whole attitude at the first of the book, and the whole basis for his resentment throughout, is not an awareness that this is a time of crisis and conflict and that there is an enemy to be fought, I don't know what else it could be. > Snape isn't in authority over him when it comes to his 'remedial > potion lessons'. Occulomency is completely outside of his authority > as a school teacher. I disagree on a couple of points. One, even if it is for a purpose outside the standard lesson, it *is* something the headmaster of a school has asked this particular master to teach this particular student. The need for cover is due to the complicating factor of Umbridge. Two, Snape has authority over Harry at any time of the day, for any reason, because he is part of the administration of the school at which Harry lives. Three, Snape has authority over Harry because he is an adult and Harry is a child and a certain amount of respect is due. > They all told him it was important. Not a single one of them said > why it was important. How could shielding his mind possibly be more > valuable than knowing what Voldemort knows? That is the answer no > one gives. Snape gave it, but Harry didn't understand it. It was important that, until the channel could be controlled or turned off, that Harry not know too much, because it was a clear and present danger that Voldemort would become aware of, and then use, that channel for intelligence and manipulation purposes. > Harry wasn't asked to make any moves. He was just given short curt > answers that did nothing to assuage his real questions and did > everything to make him ANGRY!Harry. Awww. Poor baby. Here he is, the center of the universe, and nobody's telling him anything. After all he's suffered and gone through and done. Poor woobie. Hey, sometimes the answer is "you can't know that yet" and sometimes the situation is an emergency. If I tell my kid to stop balancing on the balcony, I want her *down* and RIGHT NOW and I am not about to get into a debate about the dangers until the immediate danger is past. I will go and get her, and if I make her mad because I didn't explain or didn't listen, too bad--she's alive to be mad. She'll get over it. > You're kidding right? You cannot possibly mean that Severus Snape > should serve as an example of emotional control and the triumph of > reason over emotion. the same guy who hates a child he's never met > based on looking like his high school bully father? the same guy who > thinks that humiliating childern is jolly good fun? That guy? I think Severus Snape controls a great deal of emotion. He's usually quite controlled. That's the main reason that it stands out so when his control slips. Yes, if Harry would ever see Snape as Snape, I think there are many skills there he could benefit from. I don't think Snape likes Harry, but I don't believe Snape ever set himself up as Harry's enemy. For God's sake, Snape is a grown man with better things to do with his time. When Harry crosses his path, Snape feels no obligation to be pleasant, but I doubt Harry is in Snape's mind with anything like the frequency or venom that Snape is in Harry's. ~Amanda From Snarryfan at aol.com Sat Jun 4 22:32:46 2005 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:32:46 -0000 Subject: 4 Privet Drive; Rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130055 > Cattatra : > > In Prisoner of Azkaban where did Aunt Marge sleep? Because there is > no mention of > > A) Her sleeping in Harry's room instead > B) Her sleeping on the sofa, etc. > C) Anyone being kicked out of their room for her > > So where did she sleep? Do the Dursleys have a guest room, making it > a four bedroomed house? If so why not put Harry in there, instead of > Dudley's second bedroom? > > Help me out here peeps! There is a guest room, yes but reserved to Marge and other visitors: "The Durseley's house had four bedrooms: one for Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia, one for visitors (usually Uncle Vernon's sister, Marge), one where Dudley slept and one where Dudley kept all the toys and things that wouldn't fit into his first bedroom." So they kinda need this one always free. Christelle. From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jun 4 22:54:14 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 15:54:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Changing the title because I'm tired of it, was "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: <004601c56954$c39023e0$cb58aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: <009701c56958$55e75670$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130056 > You're kidding right? You cannot possibly mean that Severus Snape > should serve as an example of emotional control and the triumph of > reason over emotion. the same guy who hates a child he's never met > based on looking like his high school bully father? the same guy who > thinks that humiliating childern is jolly good fun? That guy? I think Severus Snape controls a great deal of emotion. He's usually quite controlled. That's the main reason that it stands out so when his control slips. Yes, if Harry would ever see Snape as Snape, I think there are many skills there he could benefit from. I don't think Snape likes Harry, but I don't believe Snape ever set himself up as Harry's enemy. For God's sake, Snape is a grown man with better things to do with his time. When Harry crosses his path, Snape feels no obligation to be pleasant, but I doubt Harry is in Snape's mind with anything like the frequency or venom that Snape is in Harry's. ~Amanda Sherry now: Ok. Now I have to say, oh come on! We have been told that Snape hates Harry because of James. Are you calling that a "grown man"? It's one of the most incredibly immature and ridiculous things I've ever heard of! (I mean that attitude in Snape is ridiculous, not you, Amanda.) To hate a child because of that child's parents, to have preconceived ideas about that child that you are not willing to release, that is not the example of a reasonable, emotionally controlled or mature individual. Occlumency was doomed to fail, because there is absolutely no reason for Harry to trust Snape. I'm thinking from Harry's point of view, not from ours as objective adult readers. It isn't good enough to say that Dumbledore trusts him, so Harry should. It's not good enough that Dumbledore asked him to do these lessons, considering Dumbledore hasn't even looked him in the eye all year. I tend to think the failure of the lessons was the fault of both Harry and Snape, because those two cannot work together. Dumbledore even admits that he should have known this couldn't work. And again I wonder, why so many people insist that Harry should act with a maturity and understanding beyond his years and yet excuse Snape for his childish and unreasonable attitudes and behavior. Putting aside the fact that perhaps English boarding schools have different ideas about discipline and all that as has been discussed repeatedly here. i go back again to my utter astonishment that a man who can hate a child because of his parents can be considered to be mature and reasonable. I had a teacher in high school that literally drove me into having an ulcer at age 15. if someone had told me I had to learn a valuable, possibly life saving technique from that man, I'd have had a reaction similar to Harry's. I'd have had no more reason to believe or trust him than Harry feels he has to believe or trust Snape. Sherry From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 23:00:45 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 16:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050604230045.74851.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130057 > Valky: > The entire Marauders crew would simply > have to be a bunch of murderous malignants for it to be remotely > possible that Snape was completely innocent. Is anyone prepared > to argue flat out that they are? This is a straw-man argument. Why does Snape have to be "completely innocent" (of anti-Marauder feelings and trying to get them in trouble, I assume)? Is there some kind of sliding scale whereby people we don't like are acceptable targets of dangerous pranks? And the entire M. crew wouldn't have to be "a bunch of murderous malignants" either; they'd just have to be a bunch of teenagers having a particularly bad attack of the stupids. Although since Lupin and James weren't in on the whole thing, it really comes down to Siriusly-Idiotic with a possible assist from Peter. I think that the internal dynamic of the Marauders was strained somewhat by the Prank with a lot of shock and hurt feelings all around. Lupin's discovery the next morning of what might have happened must have been traumatic. And for James Potter it must have been a wake-up call, the first real incident that jolted him into looking at himself and his friends and asking himself if perhaps Lily Evans didn't have a point after all. I can see him contemplating his acts not in the light of the mutual support team that was the Marauders - my-best-friend-right-or-wrong Sirius Black, insecure-and-grateful Remus Lupin, suck-up Peter Pettigrew - but how it looked from her POV. And I think the answer rather scared him, as he realized how things could spiral badly out of control. I anticipate that we'll see that this was the beginning of James' transformation into Head-Boy material and husband of Lily: he stopped looking at his reflection in the mirror of his friends' and started thinking about the bigger picture. Magda __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jun 4 23:07:02 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:07:02 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130058 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > >>Lupinlore: > >I'll have to agree with Phoenixgod here, I don't recall Harry > getting any draft papers along the way.< > > Betsy Hp: > "They're saying he tried to kill the Potter's son, Harry. But -- he > couldn't. He couldn't kill that little boy. No one knows why, or > how, but they're saying that when he couldn't kill Harry Potter, > Voldemort's powers somehow broke -- and that's why he's gone." (SS > paperback p. 12) You misunderstand me. I said in my post that you could argue that he was drafted by destiny, but Tonks was saying that Harry should be a good little soldier and blindly do what he was told by his superiors. He certainly wasn't drafted by any earthly army so that arguement doesn't hold up imo. Harry is under no duty to do anything that DD and Snape want that doesn't directly apply to his schooling. Since he was under no duty, he required a more extensive explanation that I think would have given him the incentive he needed to buy into the lessons. > > Betsy Hp: > I don't recall Dumbledore ever being referred to as a sadistic > moron. > > "Listen to me Harry," he said urgently, "you must study Occlumency as > hard as you can, do you understand me? Do everything Professor Sanpe > tells you and practice it particularly every night before sleeping so > that you can close your mind to bad dreams -- you will understand why > soon enough but you must promise me --" (OotP p.622) Good point. but once again, its all vague threats and dire (but shadowy) warnings. There is no why in his answer. Harry needed a better reason than that to counter the obvious benefits of having a line to the enemy. remember, this is pretty shortly after he saved a mans life thanks to the connection. He needed a reason and not orders but once again Dumbledore would rather keep secrets than spread knowledge, a poor philosophy for a teacher imo. > Betsy Hp: > You'll have to point out some examples of adults failing to listen to > Harry and trying to help him. I've looked through the books and yes, > Sirius lets him down when he first shares his fears, but Dumbledore > and Snape are specifically attacking what most worries him -- being > possessed by Voldemort. As other people pointed out Harry was specifically belittled and made to feel unimportant by Snape during the lessons. I don't think that impressed on Harry the seriousness of the situation. To him, I think he saw the lessons as onerus make-work, and yet another cross added to his burden. As for DD, he had done precious little that year to earn any goodwill for Harry. And I certainly wouldn't put any trust in a man who wouldn't look me in the eye for a year either. Remember, while this is a short period of time for a novel, the time span is a year. that is days upon days, weeks upon weeks, and months upon months of being left in the dark, isolated, beset on all sides by enemies both within and without the school. That is a long damn time for Dumbledore to leave Harry twisting in the wind. And Harry *does* realize that's what the > Occlumency is for. He says as much to Snape. Only Harry decides > that it's worth being possessed by Voldemort if he can only keep > having his nifty dream. Despite all the adults' (and Hermione's) > attempts to tell him that the dreams are dangerous. Of course they also saved someones life and was proving to be Harry's only source of information for an entire year. I wouldn't want to shut that down with what I knew either. > Betsy Hp: > After you finish laughing, Lupinlore, I'd love to hear your > explanations as to the many times Snape has saved Harry's life, the > reason he took part in the Occlumency lessons in the first place, and > his putting up with Sirius in order to talk to Harry about Occlumency > lessons. Because Dumbledore is his boss and even Snape isn't going to want to watch a child die if he could stop it. Emotionally, as far as we know, I'm sure Snape would have > rather told Sirius to stick it, and left Harry to mentally battle > with Voldemort on his own. I won't say that Snape is completely in > control of his emotions (witness PoA) but he's certainly not as ruled > by them as, say, Sirius. Sure he is. Snape is a bundle of neuroses that leak so badly I amazed I can pick the pages of the book apart. EVerything he does is based on childhood trauma. Snape isn't the bad cop to Dumbledores good cop. He is an emotionally disturbed man and Dumbledore was insane to think that he could handle one on one tutoring with Harry. > Betsy Hp: > But if that's the case than there's *no way* Harry should ever be > allowed *near* the Order. If Harry is so extremely disconnected from > his actions then he is far too much a child to take any part in a > war. Dumbledore holds some blame, but Harry hold some blame as well. > For Harry to become an adult he must recognize and atone for the > mistakes he's made so that he doesn't make them again. Harry doesn't need to *atone* for anything. Atoning implies that Harry has sinned and I don't think he has. Atoning is what Snape and Sirius needed to do. Its what Dumbledore needs to do. It's what Percy needs to do. It's not what Harry needs to do. All he needs to do is two things. One, read a copy of Enders Game. It'll teach him a lot. And secondly he needs to learn how to act and not react to events. Hopefully the second is going to happen in the next book and unfortunately the first is only going to happen in Fanfics. Otherwise, > he's an untrustworthy child. I agree that he shouldn't have been made a full member of OOTP. He is after all still in school. However, considering his role in what's to come allowances should have been made, regardless of what his age is. I think allowing him limited access to Order information and some sort of junior status once he learned occulomency would have been a fair and easily accomplished middle ground and left him happy. And informed. > Betsy Hp: > Yes, Dumbledore erred, but not *that* badly. (Unless I totally > misread the ending of OotP, the Order scored a bit of a victory > there.) Depends on your definition. If it was a victory then it was a small one compared to the losses and damage done. Dumbledore hesitated in telling Harry that he (Harry) is the > weapon Sirius was referring to back in the beginning of OotP. I > think it was a very human mistake. Who wants to tell a child they > care for that they're destined to become a killer? But if Harry > leans on that mistake and insists that all other mistakes flowed from > that one, and that therefore he, Harry, is completely in the clear, > well then Harry is refusing to grow. I agree that Harry needs to learn from what happened and should grow from the events but I think you are wrong. What happened did flow from that central mistake of Dumbledore's. Harry did hang himself because of his lack of foresight, but he hung himself with the rope that Dumbledore provided by keeping Harry ignorant. > Betsy Hp: Though I do see some circular reasoning going on here. I > thought you saw Dumbledore as a hopeless idiot and cold-hearted > bastard from SS/PS on? That's what you've seemed to have argued in > other postings regarding Dumbledore's treatment of Harry and > reactions to various events, IIRC. So if you think Dumbledore was an > idiot in OotP, wouldn't that be an example of JKR's consistency? Other than my issues with leaving Harry with the dursley (which I was willing to give him a pass on before OOTP) Dumbledore was my second favorite character in the series. I liked him because he wasn't the typical school master. He was funny and had a sweet tooth. He was slightly irreverent and not one to stand on convention. He was a good teacher and most of all, He *trusted* Harry. He let Harry have his adventures and even gave his tacit approval to many of them. He recognized Harry's formidable talents and respected them. He recognized the boy's competency in the face of danger. That man disappeared in OOTP and he was replaced by someone I didn't recognize and certainly didn't like. Where did the man go who told Harry at the end of the previous year that he had shouldered adult burdens and bore them well? Why couldn't he have trusted Harry one more time like he had so many other times before when even he himself had been caught off guard? > Betsy Hp, who *loved* OotP, especially when it showed Dumbledore > thinking on his feet I did like his escape scene from Hogwarts. the one DD scene in the book that made me smile. Here's to more of those in the next book phoenixgod2000 From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Jun 4 23:11:25 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:11:25 -0000 Subject: Are we supposed to hate Draco? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130059 Hickengruendler: Not very long ago there was the discussion if maybe JKR doesn't want us to hate Draco. I thought, and still think, she does, but since I also was one of those, who used some evidence that isn't directly from the books, namely, among other things, the birthdays calendar on her website, it's just fair that I point this out now. She does wish him a Happy Birthday, today on her website. Hickengruendler From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 4 23:25:46 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:25:46 -0000 Subject: Changing the title because I'm tired of it, was "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: <009701c56958$55e75670$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130060 Amanda: I don't think Snape likes Harry, but I don't believe Snape ever set himself up as Harry's enemy. Alla: I believe that that is exactly what Snape did - starting since the first lesson, when he attacked Harry for no reason ( that is just me of course) Amanda: For God's sake,Snape is a grown man with better things to do with his time. When Harry crosses his path, Snape feels no obligation to be pleasant, but I doubt Harry is in Snape's mind with anything like the frequency or venom that Snape is in Harry's. Sherry now: Ok. Now I have to say, oh come on! We have been told that Snape hates Harry because of James. Are you calling that a "grown man"? It's one of the most incredibly immature and ridiculous things I've ever heard of! (I mean that attitude in Snape is ridiculous, not you, Amanda.) To hate a child because of that child's parents, to have preconceived ideas about that child that you are not willing to release, that is not the example of a reasonable, emotionally controlled or mature individual. Alla: Ditto, Sherry! I can call Snape a being who is stuck on the level of emotional development of fifteen year old,if I am feeling generous but most certainly NOT a grown man. Moreover, if before OOP I had some hopes that Snape indeed did not hate Harry because of James, after OOP I personally have no doubt whatsoever. Of course I can be proved wrong later, but Dumbledore's "some wounds run too deep" is very telling, IMO. Lupinlore: Not when the adult is a sadistic moron, you don't.< Betsy Hp: I don't recall Dumbledore ever being referred to as a sadistic moron. Alla: Betsy, I am not 100% sure of course, but I think Lupinlore referred to Snape as sadistic moron, NOT Dumbledore. :-) Just my opinion of course, Alla. From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sat Jun 4 23:52:29 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 00:52:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A23EBD.1010206@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130061 a_svirn wrote: > Innocent of what? Do you blame him for being a "poisonous toadstool" > as Ron put it? Or do you blame him for being nearly killed? > I always find this discussion fascinating. On a meta-level, it answers so well the questions like "If James&Sirius were so bad, how comes McGonagall remembers them fondly?" or "Why the omniscient Dumbledore didn't notice a pair of bullies operating in his school?" The truth is that most people are just not prepared to believe that a handsome, clever, popular and (most important) socially fitting boy is a bully. Especially if he chooses his targets carefully. People will go to extraordinary lengths to find excuses for him, and perform the most amazing mental equilibristics on the way. Irene From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 5 00:30:16 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 00:30:16 -0000 Subject: Changing the title because I'm tired of it, was "Some won't like it". The Sc In-Reply-To: <009701c56958$55e75670$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130062 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: Occlumency was > doomed to fail, because there is absolutely no reason for Harry to trust > Snape. What reason could Harry probably have not to trust Snape? He knew Snape was a member of the Order, he knew Snape at least once saved his life. He did not LIKE Snape. And he did not need to. Though it is easier to learn a skill from someone you like, it is certainly possible to learn from someone you don't like. All you need is willingness to appy yourself. Harry uses his dislike of Snape to spin theories about him, which give him excuses to disregard his practice and his lessons. And again I wonder, why so many > people insist that Harry should act with a maturity and understanding beyond > his years and yet excuse Snape for his childish and unreasonable attitudes > and behavior. Actually I think even a ten year old can understand that if a big bad villain has a link to your mind this is NOT A GOOD THING. Harry is fifteen, nothing here which requires maturity and understanding beyond his years. Snape is childish in how he views Harry, true, but at least he makes an honest effort to teach Harry. Harry however does not make an honest effort to learn. Gerry From nrenka at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 00:44:52 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 00:44:52 -0000 Subject: Changing the title because I'm tired of it, was "Some won't like it". The Sc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130063 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > What reason could Harry probably have not to trust Snape? Trust is a tricky thing. There's a big difference between trusting someone because someone else vouches for them, and trusting someone because you yourself know (experientially too) that someone is trustworthy. The latter is built out of experience and over time. Think of Ron and Hermione and their contrasting perspectives. Hermione trusts Snape because Dumbledore does; she's willing to take him as The Truth And The Guide. Ron doesn't trust Snape; he wants to know for himself, and is not willing to take the word of an interlocutor. In my own Occlumency model (which I'm too lazy to pull up the post numbers of), it's rather like learning a martial art--which requires trust #2 and not trust #1. You have to really truly know, in and of yourself and for yourself, that someone can be trusted. And I would humbly submit that all the little things of Snape's behavior had added up to a situation where Harry knows on level #1 that Snape is to be trusted, but not level #2--and this profoundly damaged the attempt to learn something so based in the self as Occlumency, not to mention daily functioning. -Nora needs to get back on the mat herself From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 5 00:48:33 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 00:48:33 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > That man disappeared in OOTP and he was replaced by someone I didn't > recognize and certainly didn't like. Where did the man go who told > Harry at the end of the previous year that he had shouldered adult > burdens and bore them well? Why couldn't he have trusted Harry one > more time like he had so many other times before when even he > himself had been caught off guard? > I don't think it was an issue of trust. I think because Harry had been through such a lot in the previous year DD wanted him to have a bit of freedom, without any more burdens. Not so much as keeping him in the dark as giving him space, a last bit of childhood before he had to be told about the prophecy. Ofcourse this was not what Harry needed, and I think DD would have realised this if he could have had any real contact with Harry. But his fear that LV would try to possess Harry through the connection if he had any close contact with Harry - a fear that b.t.w. was completely grounded - prevented that. Gerry From nrenka at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 00:55:49 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 00:55:49 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: <42A23EBD.1010206@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130065 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene wrote: I have to snip out and quote a little bit in advance: Irene: > People will go to extraordinary lengths to find excuses for him, > and perform the most amazing mental equilibristics on the way. I think that if you did a statistical survey of HPfGU over time, one character would receive far more apologia than any other. Far, far more, explaining away in positive terms any and all aspects of behavior. But that's a little beside the point--I just found the irony delightful. > The truth is that most people are just not prepared to believe that > a handsome, clever, popular and (most important) socially fitting > boy is a bully. Especially if he chooses his targets carefully. > People will go to extraordinary lengths to find excuses for him, > and perform the most amazing mental equilibristics on the way. If I read you correctly, you're saying that Dumbledore and McGonagall were both fooled by James et al. because he was handsome, clever, etc. I have a hard time reconciling this with the Dumbledore who's very sharp at what's going on around school and very quick to pick up on people who are not really what they seem to be--young Tom Riddle being a main example. You read the objections made from a fairly solid canonical basis as trying to explain away nasty habits. But this argument posits its own explaining away, one that makes Dumbledore and McGonagall into fairly willing dupes/completely biased/or maybe just ignorant. There's quite possibly, in contrast, a formulation by which all of these aspects fit together--why they're remembered so fondly without casting aspersions upon the perceptions of those doing so, but also the nasty and cruel behavior perpetrated. Missing information. What a drag. -Nora admits to playing generally with the card of authorial attitudes towards characters in mind, but who bets against the author in a WiP? From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sun Jun 5 01:25:19 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 02:25:19 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A2547F.40404@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130066 nrenka wrote: > >>The truth is that most people are just not prepared to believe that >>a handsome, clever, popular and (most important) socially fitting >>boy is a bully. Especially if he chooses his targets carefully. >>People will go to extraordinary lengths to find excuses for him, >>and perform the most amazing mental equilibristics on the way. > > > If I read you correctly, you're saying that Dumbledore and McGonagall > were both fooled by James et al. because he was handsome, clever, > etc. I have a hard time reconciling this with the Dumbledore who's > very sharp at what's going on around school and very quick to pick up > on people who are not really what they seem to be--young Tom Riddle > being a main example. Tom Riddle was a very different case - he wasn't socially fitting, he was a manipulative sociopath. > > You read the objections made from a fairly solid canonical basis as > trying to explain away nasty habits. It might be my personal bias, but lots of arguments about how the Prank was mostly Snape's own fault, and how the Pensieve scene is not really two-on-one, are bordering on the "blame the victim". But then again, it might be just my personal buttons pushed, I accept that. But this argument posits its > own explaining away, one that makes Dumbledore and McGonagall into > fairly willing dupes/completely biased/or maybe just ignorant. I worked with children. The bullying is not always as clear-cut as Draco vs. Neville. Very often the bullies are well-liked by all children, clever, charming, polite to the teachers, bring glory and points to their house. It's very difficult for an adult not to get into "they are nice children, they don't mean any harm really" attitude. And the victim is a generally very unpleasant child - might be a liar, or as we had in one case, prone to stealing. It's very difficult for an adult not to get into "servers him right" attitude. > There's quite possibly, in contrast, a formulation by which all of > these aspects fit together--why they're remembered so fondly without > casting aspersions upon the perceptions of those doing so, but also > the nasty and cruel behavior perpetrated. > > Missing information. What a drag. > > -Nora admits to playing generally with the card of authorial > attitudes towards characters in mind, but who bets against the author > in a WiP? Not me. I'm not the one declaring that if books 6 and 7 do not turn out exactly as I want them to, it would be a mistake on JKR's part. :-) She can completely kill any sympathy I have for Snape, and I will accept it. Irene From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 5 01:38:02 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 01:38:02 -0000 Subject: Draco & Harry (was: Sirius and Prank again? ) In-Reply-To: <20050603124259.39361.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130067 Magda: > Dumbledore's comment to Harry about Snape-James being like > Harry-Draco would also take on new meaning as I really believe that > as much as he goes after Harry so much Draco very much wants to be > Harry's friend (as much as Draco understands the word). SSSusan: I know this wasn't the main point of your post, Magda, but it intrigues me. I notice you used the *present* tense here. Is that what you think? That Draco still WANTS to be Harry's friend, or that at one time he truly WANTED to be his friend? If the former, I would love to hear more. Siriusly Snapey Susan From k.coble at comcast.net Sun Jun 5 01:42:38 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 20:42:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Puss Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <099a188b3bbcbbb9cb3a6d7dcd20df68@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130069 Cats. They're all over the place, and it seems to me that there is something more to them. The two people in the series who have cats and are completely devoted to them are Mrs. Figg and Argus Filch. Squibs. Godric Gryffindor is the founder of Gryffindor House, which has as it's symbol the Lion. We are led to believe that Godric Gryffindor was the champion for the underdogs--non-Purebloods and the like. What if....Just thinking aloud here..... 1. Cats are somehow empowered in the WW to serve as guardians for Squibs since they are basically handicapped by being forced to live "between worlds" 2. Crookshanks seeks Hermione out to be Hermione's protector since he has Feline Blood and can sense that there is danger ahead with the war going on. I just can't believe that with the great mythology surrounding cats that there isn't more to do with them in the upcoming books---especially with the Felix Felicitis chapter..... I apologize that these theories are half-formed. Anyone have any thoughts? http://pio.tripod.com/magicpaw/catmyths.html Katherine From k.coble at comcast.net Sun Jun 5 01:49:31 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 20:49:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dark Mark - You've Got Dirt Under Your Nose, by the way, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78a618047eb8a4bde30d0aa989b2bc6e@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130070 On Jun 4, 2005, at 3:40 PM, tinglinger wrote: > I know that many of you might consider this a most > egregious example of micro-reading, but FOUR TIMES > in ten pages, noticed by 4 different characters, > and Jo's love of wordplay maakes this worthy of > mention. > Maybe it's worth something or maybe it's just our > "dirty" little secret till Book 7.... > > I wonder if Ron's smudged nose is an omen of death, > a la the Dark Mark, or just as a symbol of being > below ground.... > I've always thought it was the subconscious way of marking Ron as a friend for Harry. Harry, who has the scar on his face that makes him feel as though he stands out. Ron's introduction of having something on his face, albeit temporary, sets up: 1. He's from a harried mother who has a lot of children and doesn't have time to pamper any of them. 2. He can be forgetful and absent-minded 3. He stands in contrast to Malfoy who looks perfect on the outside but is not perfect by any means. 4. Both of Harry's friends are described as not the most attractive people initially. This lets all of the people who feel insecure about their own looks to identify with and embrace the characters. Being a Ron-Fan I certainly hope it isn't a death omen. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 02:22:37 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 02:22:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130071 Nora: You read the objections made from a fairly solid canonical basis as trying to explain away nasty habits. Irene: It might be my personal bias, but lots of arguments about how the Prank was mostly Snape's own fault, and how the Pensieve scene is not really two-on-one, are bordering on the "blame the victim". But then again, it might be just my personal buttons pushed, I accept that. > > Alla: > See, I cannot speak for others, but MY argument relies on the asssumption that we do NOT know yet that Snape was the complete victim, unless I forgot some crucial info from canon. Are you prepared to argue that we know everything about the Prank night? If yes, here are some questions I have for you ( and the list is definitely not inclusive). I don't remember canon having exact answers to any of them. :-) When did it happen? ( after pensieve scene or before it, or in a different school year)? If it happened after pensieve scene, is there any significance to the fact that Snape was reading the question about werewolfes? Is there any significance to the fact that Snape saw Lupin with Madam Pomfrey dissapearing in the Shack? Why did Snape listen to the information from the boy who supposedly was one of his sworn enemies? How exactly this conversation occurred? Why did Snape go there in the first place? Where was Peter at the time of the Prank? Where was James at the time of the Prank ( prior to him going and saving Snape)? Who told James about the Prank? Since Yahoo won't let us edit the post, I am replying to my previous one and adding more questions for you. 1. Why is this sentence appears to be not finished? "Black made a derisive noise. "It served him right," he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to... hoping he could get us expelled...." - PoA, paperback, p.356. 2. What does Dumbledore's "my memory is as good as ever" means? What does he remember? 3. Why are there three periods in the middle of this sentence? "Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch field...anyway Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform" - PoA, p.357. Anybody who thinks that we have more questions than answers about Prank night, please feel free to add them. :-) JMO, Alla From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 03:03:19 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 03:03:19 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130072 I am really getting a bit perturbed over all of this blaming of DD for everything. Harry is coming of age and it is high time he starts taking responsibly for his actions and for *his* mistakes. Harry is not stupid. He was told and told again by everyone. He was told by those he trusted and those he didn't. He was told by Headmaster, Professor, Friends, Order members and even his God Father. You can not tell me that Harry did not know what he was suppose to do and why. He knew. Now we can argue that till the owls come home and I will say to the very end that Harry *knew*. But he didn't do it. He didn't make a serious attempt to study Occlumency. He didn't want to close his mind. He was having an adventure every night in his sleep and he didn't want it to end. He was curious to see what was behind the door. (And I don't want to hear about `if someone had told him what was behind the door then maybe he wouldn't have wanted to see'.) We have been with Harry for years now. We all know him very, very well. Harry would have continued to have the dreams or for one reason or another have convinced himself that it was the *thing* to do to keep his connection with LV. When have we ever seen Harry not take the bait for an adventure of some sort, an adventure that he thinks that only he can save the world or the school or whatever. Harry is Harry. He is an active person. He is the ego of the trio, the part that *does*. Harry has a remarkable ability at time to deceive himself. He doesn't need LV to do that. He can do it by himself. Remember all the times he was wrong? All the times he thought something was one way and it was really another? So I say that Harry knew and for his own reasons he chose not to follow what he knew to be true. Harry deceived himself. And IMO LV also worked in Harry's mind to deceive him. LV does this the way the Dark Lord always does this sort of thing, by making his victim *think* that what they are doing is for the greater good. I wonder how many of those who later became DE's were recruited by being told that they would be doing something noble, something good for the WW? I don't think that most people, wizards or muggles would follow the powers of Darkness knowingly, at least in the beginning of that encounter. Harry has allowed the Dark Lord to lead him astray. Maybe it would have helped if someone had explained it to Harry, and maybe not. Harry understood when he told Snape "maybe LV would make me do things?" and Snape says "maybe". That is clear enough for me. Harry is a free agent as are we all. He has free will. All another person can do is tell him, advise him, even plead with him as Hermione has done. They can't make the decision for him. He made that decision himself. I did not like to see Harry make the wrong choice like he did. It upset me a lot, but I do not need to project the blame onto someone else. Harry did not kill Sirius, Bella did. Harry is not responsible for Sirius' death, Bella is. But Harry did something very, very stupid. He made a serious mistake. It would not have matter if the Virgin Mary appeared to him and explained everything. He would still have done the same thing. He made a mistake and someone died. It is hard to face this. It is hard for Harry to face this and it is in some respect even harder for us the readers to accept this. But it is what it is and we have to face it and so will Harry. Sure DD is going to try to take the blame, what do you expect him to do? He is trying to soften the blow for Harry, but DD doesn't fool me for one minute. I know who is responsible for what and I will not project blame on DD for something that is not his. You can disagree with me and I am sure many will, but this is my opinion on this matter. Tonks_op From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 5 03:12:34 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 03:12:34 -0000 Subject: Explaining the danger to Harry (was: Changing the title because I'm tired of it) In-Reply-To: <004601c56954$c39023e0$cb58aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130073 Amanda: > Awww. Poor baby. Here he is, the center of the universe, and > nobody's telling him anything. After all he's suffered and gone > through and done. Poor woobie. Hey, sometimes the answer is "you > can't know that yet" and sometimes the situation is an emergency. > If I tell my kid to stop balancing on the balcony, I want her > *down* and RIGHT NOW and I am not about to get into a debate about > the dangers until the immediate danger is past. I will go and get > her, and if I make her mad because I didn't explain or didn't > listen, too bad--she's alive to be mad. She'll get over it. SSSusan: I don't think the two situations are quite analogous. Like you, I'd darn well get my daughter or son DOWN and *then* worry about the explanation, but that's because the child is in a situation fraught with immediate danger. The child has no role to play *except* getting down. Harry, OTOH, has a potentially much bigger role to play in the crisis situation, should it come. We don't know the specifics of the danger he is in -- nor even when he will be at the point of peak danger. The training is to be ongoing, not a one-time "This is an emergency! DO this and LEARN this NOW!" kind of thing. What DD (and likely Snape, if DD told him much) suspect is that Harry will need to be prepared and that it will take a fair bit of work on his part to get himself adequately prepared. Your daughter or my son need ONLY to GET DOWN and it's over. Harry needs to learn a skill so that he'll be able to take action in the future, possibly several times in the future, and potentially without the guidance or assistance of any adult when it matters most. Our children can be taught *simply* once they're in safety why what they were doing was dangerous and why they should avoid it in future. Harry, however, I would argue, needs a much more complete explanation for a situation he doesn't know the specifics of, can't fully anticipate, and doesn't really even understand. He believes, for instance, that his connection to Voldy is USEFUL and doesn't quite know why he needs to do what Snape's telling him he needs to do. Yes, Snape did the best job Snape's ever done in explaining something to Harry, but it didn't get fully to the heart of it, really... and their 5-year relationship got in the way of Harry's hearing enough and Snape's answering all the key questions. Harry really did need to understand more fully, I think, why the DANGER of the connection outweighed the clear (to him) USEFULNESS of the connection. So much more needed to be understood in the situation, and so much more of the danger is of a murky nature, that I would argue much greater care needed to have been taken to ensure that Harry really heard, understood and accepted the need to master Occlumency. Amanda: > I don't think Snape likes Harry, but I don't believe Snape ever > set himself up as Harry's enemy. For God's sake, Snape is a grown > man with better things to do with his time. When Harry > crosses his path, Snape feels no obligation to be pleasant, but I > doubt Harry is in Snape's mind with anything like the frequency or > venom that Snape is in Harry's. SSSusan: If Snape has better things to do with his time (and I fully agree that he does), then why DOESN'T he do better things with his time? Why DOES he persist in going out of his way to be so nasty to Harry? Harry deserves some of the remarks Snape sends his way, but it sure does seem to me that Snape spends an inordinate amount of time focusing precisely upon this child and the ways in which he can humiliate him and cut him down. Siriusly Snapey Susan From magistera at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 01:42:04 2005 From: magistera at gmail.com (magistera_coi) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 01:42:04 -0000 Subject: JKR and Inconsistency (was:Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130074 > Betsy Hp: > Welcome to the list. I'm glad you jumped in. :) I *am* going to > posit that Snape did not hear what the Mauraders said to each other. > Because if he had it would have been game over for Lupin. (Same if > anyone else had overheard what they were saying -- *very* careless of > the boys, but completely in character.) One word to a well placed > parent (and Snape, per canon, is connected to some high placed > families) and pressure would have been brought to bare on Dumbledore > and Lupin would have been out. (Dumbledore may well have lost his > position as Headmaster as well.) Mags: But if he didn't hear it, how is it in his memory? I know you said you didn't want to get into the pensieve issue, but it seems as though, if pensieve scenes contain things that are both true and not remembered by the owner of the memory, that they'd be the ultimate surveillance tool. Pull out your memory of breakfast and find out what Lord Thingy is up to today! Or, even if you have to be close by (as Harry believes) - stand outside a door for a minute, then go find out what was going on in there. It just doesn't make any sense, IMO. But even stipulating that the memory somehow does contain true things that Snape didn't hear - as I mentioned earlier, it comes back to the fact that if they were talking about it that openly (and frequently), someone who was trying to find out their secrets would have heard them make other references to it. > Betsy Hp: > But we know for > a fact that Snape is *not* paying attention to the Mauraders. In > fact the only reason he settles so close to them is because he has no > idea that they're there until he's attacked. Mags: Well, we knew he didn't *appear* to be paying attention. On the other hand, he does react "so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack" (OotP 646). (I've used the nose-in-a-book trick myself many times, so I never trust that someone who's apparently absorbed in something can't hear me :P) > Betsy Hp: > Why would Snape know anything about where Lupin slept? And as I said > upthread, Snape was more interested in what James and Sirius got up > to than Lupin, IMO, who as far as we've been shown had little to do > with the war James and Sirius were waging on Snape. Mags: I'm going by what Lupin said in the Shack - that Snape was "very interested in where [he] went every month". Unless he's flat-out lying there, it sounds like enough of Snape's attention was focused on Lupin to at least give him that impression (IMO, it sounds almost like Snape had made his intentions clear, actually). The fact that Snape saw Madame Pomfrey leading Lupin out to the Willow suggests to me that he was following Lupin around as well. And if he's noticed that Lupin disappears from classes and so on once a month, and become interested in it enough to try to solve the mystery - well, as was mentioned elsewhere on the thread, it didn't take long for Hermione to figure it out, and it didn't take the other Marauders much longer once they started wondering what was up. > Betsy Hp: >As to what Lupin > tells Harry, I don't trust he's telling the whole truth. Throughout > PoA he holds back information and uses dribs and drabs of information > to misdirect people. He tells Harry, in PoA, that Snape hated James > because of James' quidditch skills. As we learn in OotP, there's a > lot more to it. Mags: Well, he does say that he only thinks that's the reason - but I guess it comes down to whether you believe their confrontations were mostly one-sided or not - which, ironically enough, comes down to whether you believe Lupin is telling the truth or not when he says they weren't. Personally, I think what we saw in the pensieve scene was one act in a play that had been going on for a long time. At the beginning it probably was something as simple as jealousy on Snape's end (although I'm not saying that *was* the cause, just something along those lines) and something equally stupid on James' side, but they found all sorts of new reasons to hate each other as time went on. > Betsy Hp: > Plus, I just cannot see Snape, even at fifteen, being stupid enough > to try and take on a full grown werewolf by himself. Mags: He might not have intended to take him on, though. He could, for example, been looking for proof - either to try to get Lupin expelled, or (depending on whether or not he was in Voldemort's camp yet) to discredit Dumbledore. Or for blackmail purposes - who knows? I do agree, though, that he probably wasn't planning on a battle (although I don't know why Stupefy wouldn't work, if you were prepared in advance). > > >>Mags: > or c) the Prank actually happened before > the Pensieve scene; but it seems to me that one of those things must > be true, and (a) strikes me as the most likely.< > > Betsy Hp: > I seriously doubt (c) is true. Otherwise Sirius and James are even > bigger jerks than they appear. And Snape would have been *way* more > leery of Lupin. I agree with you here :) Lupin does say that Snape & James continued to take every opportunity to curse each other right through seventh year, but I tend to doubt it escalated to the level of the pensieve scene post-Prank. -Mags From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 5 02:07:31 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:07:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Puss Theory In-Reply-To: <099a188b3bbcbbb9cb3a6d7dcd20df68@comcast.net> References: <099a188b3bbcbbb9cb3a6d7dcd20df68@comcast.net> Message-ID: <42A25E63.90106@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130075 Katherine Coble wrote: >Godric Gryffindor is the founder of Gryffindor House, which has as it's >symbol the Lion. We are led to believe that Godric Gryffindor was the >champion for the underdogs--non-Purebloods and the like. > > Well, lions are a pretty commonplace symbol for courage and strength, for instance in heraldry. Not necessarily anything more to it than that. Although, the story of the lion-like person in the upcoming book might -- or might not -- give more relevance to that fact heh. >What if....Just thinking aloud here..... > >1. Cats are somehow empowered in the WW to serve as guardians for >Squibs since they are basically handicapped by being forced to live >"between worlds" > >2. Crookshanks seeks Hermione out to be Hermione's protector since he >has Feline Blood and can sense that there is danger ahead with the war >going on. > > Crookshanks is part Kneazle, a very intelligent and protective animal. So his behaviour all 'round is not surprising. As for the idea of regular cats protecting squibs... Hm. Cats are one common variety of witches' 'familiars' so again I don't think it's much of a stretch, though it is interesting that we haven't really seen any pet cats in the books with anyone who was NOT a squib. >I just can't believe that with the great mythology surrounding cats >that there isn't more to do with them in the upcoming >books---especially with the Felix Felicitis chapter..... > > There's great debate as to what "Felix Felicitis" means. Is it a happy cat? A person's name (the lion fellow, for instance)? A spell incantation? My personal leaning is toward the happy cat interpretation, but we'll just have to wait and see, won't we? heather the buzzard From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 5 02:13:14 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:13:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dark Mark - You've Got Dirt Under Your Nose, by the way, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A25FBA.4010404@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130076 tinglinger wrote: >I know that many of you might consider this a most >egregious example of micro-reading, but FOUR TIMES >in ten pages, noticed by 4 different characters, >and Jo's love of wordplay maakes this worthy of >mention. > > >I wonder if Ron's smudged nose is an omen of death, >a la the Dark Mark, or just as a symbol of being >below ground.... > > I think it's mentioned 4 times in ten pages by 4 different characters primarily as simply a comic device. Also it provides a connecting thread between the scenes and the characters, a common link unifying the images and sequence of events in the readers' minds. Finally, it shows very efficiently Ron's status as coming from a 'poor' family. I don't think there's any greater significance to it other than as a literary device. If it meant more, I would expect similar echos to have been made in later books. So far as I can recall, Ron's nose has been clean ever since. Hee. Of course, not trying to invoke movie contamination here, but from hat we've been told JKR was quite precise as to what had to be included in the movies for reasons of later continuity, and Hermione DOES give her dirty-nose quote to Ron on the train (though the others do not). Again, though, I think this functions primarily as character exposition -- Ron is poor and dirty, Hermione is brash and, um, not necessarily tactful. Heh. heather the buzzard From editor at texas.net Sun Jun 5 03:41:28 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:41:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Explaining the danger to Harry (was: Changing the title because I'm tired of it) References: Message-ID: <002001c56980$7649b700$1e58aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130077 SSSusan: > I don't think the two situations are quite analogous. Like you, I'd > darn well get my daughter or son DOWN and *then* worry about the > explanation, but that's because the child is in a situation fraught > with immediate danger. The child has no role to play *except* > getting down. > > Harry, OTOH, has a potentially much bigger role to play in the > crisis situation, should it come. We don't know the specifics of > the danger he is in -- nor even when he will be at the point of peak > danger. The training is to be ongoing, not a one-time "This is an > emergency! DO this and LEARN this NOW!" kind of thing. What DD (and > likely Snape, if DD told him much) suspect is that Harry will need > to be prepared and that it will take a fair bit of work on his part > to get himself adequately prepared. > > Your daughter or my son need ONLY to GET DOWN and it's over. Harry > needs to learn a skill so that he'll be able to take action in the > future, possibly several times in the future, and potentially > without the guidance or assistance of any adult when it matters > most. Our children can be taught *simply* once they're in safety > why what they were doing was dangerous and why they should avoid it > in future. Harry, however, I would argue, needs a much more > complete explanation for a situation he doesn't know the specifics > of, can't fully anticipate, and doesn't really even understand. > > He believes, for instance, that his connection to Voldy is USEFUL > and doesn't quite know why he needs to do what Snape's telling him > he needs to do. Yes, Snape did the best job Snape's ever done in > explaining something to Harry, but it didn't get fully to the heart > of it, really... and their 5-year relationship got in the way of > Harry's hearing enough and Snape's answering all the key questions. > Harry really did need to understand more fully, I think, why the > DANGER of the connection outweighed the clear (to him) USEFULNESS of > the connection. So much more needed to be understood in the > situation, and so much more of the danger is of a murky nature, that > I would argue much greater care needed to have been taken to ensure > that Harry really heard, understood and accepted the need to master > Occlumency. I accept that Harry didn't get it. But I do wonder what it would take to hand him a clue. Every single person he was associated with seemed to understand the danger--which I argue *was* clear and immediate, as witness what happened the two times Dumbledore met Harry's eyes. It is only because Dumbledore was right, and avoided Harry, that something more significant didn't occur. Let's remove my analogy from an immediate danger, to one that you may feel is more applicable. I try to teach my child not to walk into the road. Everyone else my child knows, tells her not to walk into the road. I explain to my child why not to walk into the road. You are telling me that I must make certain that child understands and accepts why not to walk into the road; that she must believe the USEFULNESS of this instruction outweighs the DANGER. You're saying I need her buy-in; that I can't expect to compel this behavior on the basis of my authority. BUT. My child may not understand, even when explained graphically, even if shown pictures. The concept of danger and hurt and death is simply beyond some ages; sometimes beyond some children. And so it may well be that in a given situation, my child will believe the USEFULNESS of its ability to walk into the road outweighs the DANGER, and will do it anyway, even after all the warnings and explanations. That child would be wrong. But it would think it was right. And it might feel persecuted if a guard were set on the road, or if authority figures tried to prevent it from walking into the road, and it might just get exasperated and angry and feel all misunderstood that those friends and authority figures just didn't UNDERSTAND--especially if there were some alluring thing beckoning on the other side of the road. And if a book were written from that child's perspective? We'd have OoP. Harry may well not have been capable of comprehending--LV was in his mind, and looking at the overall pattern when I analyzed the Occlumency lessons, I think it's likely that LV was twisting Harry to believe he was doing a reasonable and good thing. But he *is* old enough to understand the stakes--especially after Sirius' rant to the twins when Arthur is in the hospital; and to me, that is old enough to listen to, and honor the wishes of, someone you acknowledge as a leader in this conflict. SSSusan: > If Snape has better things to do with his time (and I fully agree > that he does), then why DOESN'T he do better things with his time? I think he does. The only time we ever see Snape is through Harry's eyes, so of necessity it's when he's talking to--and probably being nasty to--Harry. That's quite likely a very small percentage of his time. ~Amanda From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 03:57:34 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 03:57:34 -0000 Subject: Explaining the danger to Harry (was: Changing the title because I'm tired of it) In-Reply-To: <002001c56980$7649b700$1e58aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130078 Amanda: Let's remove my analogy from an immediate danger, to one that you may feel is more applicable. I try to teach my child not to walk into the road. You are telling me that I must make certain that child understands and accepts why not to walk into the road; that she must believe the USEFULNESS of this instruction outweighs the DANGER. You're saying I need her buy-in; that I can't expect to compel this behavior on the basis of my authority. BUT. My child may not understand, even when explained graphically, even if shown pictures. And so it may well be that in a given situation, my child will believe the USEFULNESS of its ability to walk into the road outweighs the DANGER, and will do it anyway, even after all the warnings and explanations. Alla: The problem I see with this analogy is that your child had not really EXPERIENCED the usefullness of walking down the road. I am understanding you correctly, right? Your child may only think it is useful, but Harry indeed experienced the usefullness of his connection with Voldie - he saved Arthur's life. I'd say it is a very important reason for him to keep such connection in his mind. And nobody explained to him why despite the fact the hesaved an order member , he should shut it down, IMO. JMO, Alla. From editor at texas.net Sun Jun 5 04:15:10 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 04:15:10 -0000 Subject: Changing the title because I'm tired of it, was "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: <009701c56958$55e75670$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130079 Amanda: > I think Severus Snape controls a great deal of emotion. He's usually quite > controlled. That's the main reason that it stands out so when his control > slips. Sherry now: > > Ok. Now I have to say, oh come on! We have been told that Snape hates > Harry because of James. Are you calling that a "grown man"? It's one of the > most incredibly immature and ridiculous things I've ever heard of! (I mean > that attitude in Snape is ridiculous, not you, Amanda.) To hate a child > because of that child's parents, to have preconceived ideas about that child > that you are not willing to release, that is not the example of a > reasonable, emotionally controlled or mature individual. Let me clarify that I differentiate "control" from "maturity" or "reasonability." Snape's hatred of Harry, and of Sirius and Lupin, is usually quite controlled and focused. The hatred itself is another issue; but his control of it is demonstrable in canon. Largely, as I have pointed out, by contrast with the moments when, under extreme provocation, it slips (Shrieking Shack; end of PoA) or comes very close (kitchen scene in OoP). ~Amanda From nrenka at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 04:26:30 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 04:26:30 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: <42A2547F.40404@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene wrote: > Tom Riddle was a very different case - he wasn't socially fitting, > he was a manipulative sociopath. True on the sociopathy part--but he sure did fool almost everyone else. Well-liked, handsome, respected, not suspected, Services to the School, etc. It says a lot about Dumbledore's skills of discerning character to figure out what seemed to elude everyone else, no? > And the victim is a generally very unpleasant child - might be a > liar, or as we had in one case, prone to stealing. It's very > difficult for an adult not to get into "servers him right" > attitude. But how does this apply to Dumbledore and/or McGonagall, both of whom are presented as rather sharp in their judgements of people? I have a hard time attributing a "serves him right" attitude especially to Dumbledore (I can perhaps see it with McG, but she's so strictly fair in most occasions that it's hard). On the other hand, Dumbledore does like to generally let people work things out on their own. At the moment, I'm disinclined to assume any gross idiocy or negligence in the past on Dumbledore's part, but again--this falls into the "oops missing evidence" area. > She can completely kill any sympathy I have for Snape, and I will > accept it. You're a rara avis, in at least some circles--but that is my approach as well, the not betting against the author. It's one reason why I'm reluctant to assume Dumbledore's idiocy or negligence regarding Snape and MWPP in the past--Rowling likes to make Dumbledore right, and that's powerful enough not to bet against with confidence. It could always swing the other way, of course. -Nora will have to go and statistically compile those apologia, someday From mysticowl at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 04:56:31 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 00:56:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: References: <42A2547F.40404@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130081 Quoted from a few emaisl ago: "Steve/bboyminn: In simpliest terms, there is a difference between throwing someone into a dean of wolves, and simply telling him where the dean is. That's all I'm trying to say. > Eloise: > If you *know* that the person will enter the den, then morally, > there's no difference at all, IMHO. Alla: Oh, I disagree with you, Eloise and I agree with Steve. Simple hypothetical. The person whom I consider to be my enemy tells me that if I jump of the cliff to the river or ocean and dive, I will find there "Harry Potter book 7". THEN this person tells me ( and he knows that I cannot swim well) that the river is very deep there and I can drown easily. So, for me as obsessive HP fan the temptation is huge. I choose to jump off the cliff and I almost drown, alas. Are you saying that I bear no culpability in that situation? Are you saying that there is no difference in culpability of the other person as if he would not have warned me or forced me to jump? I chose to go and look for the book. I refused to wait another few years. :-) I was being an idiot, I would say. Wouldn't you agree?" Whew, ok my response: Using your metaphore, the person could also have said, "HP Book 7 is at the bottom of that river, it's pretty shallow, don't worry." And then you wouldn't be quite so foolish for jumping in and almost drowning. Of course, we don't have a way of knowing which option was presented to Snape. Personally, I think Sirius didn't say anything, just told Snape how to freeze the Willow. I don't think Snape new there was a werewolf inside, and decided that if the Marauders trek into the Willow passage regularly, then whatever is on the other end is safe for a teenage wizard. That doesn't mean I don't think Snape's responsible for being a sneaking busybody... It's already been mentioned a lot that Sirius through this almost made his friend a murderer, but I also have a nother point. Was he so arrogant that he thought Dumbledore would cover up for him and his friends once Snape did find Lupin in his transformed form? Did he expect that the teachers would think it all very funny too? That conjecture I think goes along with what some people have been saying in this discussion about adults tending to believe children like Sirius. It looks like he might have been used to being coddled and believed. (except by his family) alina. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 05:03:36 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 05:03:36 -0000 Subject: Explaining the danger to Harry (was: Changing the title because I'm tired of it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130082 >>Alla: >And nobody explained to him why despite the fact the hesaved an order member , he should shut it down, IMO.< Betsy Hp: Okay, I'm tired and just about to go to bed so I apologize in advance if I sound snarky, but what part about THE DARK LORD KNOWS YOU WERE IN HIS HEAD!! HE IS NOW TRYING TO GET INTO YOURS!!! do folks who *insist* Harry had no earthly idea that anything was wrong not understand? What part of YOU MEAN HE COULD MAKE ME FEEL OR DO THINGS? SIR? comes across as "Errrr... I don't understand what you said there professor, could you maybe use one syllable words and a picture book, please? I mean, yes I'm fifteen, but remember when you called me an idiot back in the day and I cried and cried and cried? Turns out you were right."??!?!??!??!???! Seriously -- answer me that. I might start to take arguments about Harry the dewy-eyed innocent a little more seriously if there wasn't such a blatent refusal to deal with canon taking place. (And there's a large group of you, so this isn't directed at you personally, Alla. I'm honestly curious as to why folks feel like the above scene and Dumbledore's FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BOY -- LEARN OCCLUMENCY OR ALL IS LOST!! scene are completely disregarded.) Betsy Hp, who will now toddle off to bed From kjones at telus.net Sun Jun 5 05:42:25 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:42:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Explaining the danger to Harry (was: Changing the title because I'm tired of it) In-Reply-To: <002001c56980$7649b700$1e58aacf@texas.net> References: <002001c56980$7649b700$1e58aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: <42A290C1.6090007@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130083 > SSSusan: > > > If Snape has better things to do with his time (and I fully agree > > that he does), then why DOESN'T he do better things with his time? > > I think he does. The only time we ever see Snape is through Harry's eyes, so > of necessity it's when he's talking to--and probably being nasty to--Harry. > That's quite likely a very small percentage of his time. > > ~Amanda > > Kathy writes: I find that build-up through the books interesting. In SS, Harry feels that Snape hates him. He asks Hagrid for confirmation. Hagrid does not tell Harry the truth, but is obviously aware of Snape's feelings. In spite of this, Harry does not fear Snape. He is puzzled and annoyed by it. As is normal, he dislikes the teacher who dislikes him. There are only a few Snape interactions in the book. In CoS, again, Harry is frustrated and angered by Snape's treatment of him, but Draco is the suspect in Harry's mind. Snape is something to be avoided, and treated with caution. Again Harry does not fear Snape. In the duelling scene, Harry and Ron are betting on Snape. Snape is more respected, if less liked than Lockhart. Hary dislikes him because he is unfair. Again there are few Snape interactions in this book. In PoA, the conflict seems to increase considerably. Harry is caught in Hogsmeade when he did not have permission to go. Snape is suspicious of him and keeps much more of an eye on Harry than usual. Again, Harry does not fear him, but he still does not hate him. Harry was beginning to deal with him. Snape was the one getting out-maneuvered through this book. In the Shrieking Shack, neither Harry or Snape took the hexing personally. The Trio hexed Snape to give them all some time to figure things out, and Snape just assumed that they were confunded. For a supposedly immature and hateful person, it seems to me that Snape handled that surprisingly well. Harry is more agressively fighting back when he and Snape have to deal with each other. Harry and Snape are being pushed together more often. In GoF, it starts out with Harry's scar hurting. Fairly early in the book, it mentions that Snape is loathed by Harry. Harry is beginning to be loathed by Snape as much for himself as for James. This book describes Harry wanting to use the Cruciatus on Snape, watch him suffer, hit him over the head with a cauldron. I think what we are beginning to see is Voldemort's effect on Harry's emotions through the connection. Harry is not a "hating" kind of person. Later in the book Harry is described as so angry at Snape that his hands were shaking, but did not describe it as hate. Harry also became so angry at Ron that he threw a badge and hit him in the forehead with it. This just does not seem like Harry. Again. the Snape interactions are more frequent. By the time we get to OotP, Harry is angry at everybody. He is horrified at having extra lessons with Snape. Snape again handles being hexed by Harry, and has the only civil, informative talk with Harry that we have ever seen. Harry becomes increasingly angry with Snape, resentful, and secretive with everybody, and distrustful and resentful of Dumbledor. Again, I think that we are being led to a realization, as is Harry, that the connection with Voldemort is causing his personality to change over time. We see a few moments of "old" Harry when he demands an explanation for what he has seen in Snape's pensieve. We see more moments of "someone else". This book has more than doubled the Snape/Harry interactions and shown us two distinct variations of Harry's attitude toward Snape. On one hand he knows he can trust him as an Order member, and on the other hand feels waves of intense hatred toward him. I think JKR has to push them closer together in the next book. Snape may be the cause of Harry's revelation that he is feeling what V. feels instead of himself. Perhaps Harry will realize that no one could tell him anything because of the risk of the connection with Voldemort. JMO KJ From bamf505 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 05:54:03 2005 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday, Draco Message-ID: <20050605055403.33748.qmail@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130084 Draco's birthday was noted on JKR's site today - June 5th. That makes Draco a Gemini and older than Harry. ta! bamf "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jun 5 06:56:46 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17ptf) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 06:56:46 -0000 Subject: Explaining the danger to Harry (was: Changing the title because I'm tired of it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130085 Alla wrote: Harry indeed experienced > the usefullness of his connection with Voldie - he saved Arthur's > life. > > I'd say it is a very important reason for him to keep such > connection in his mind. > > And nobody explained to him why despite the fact the hesaved an > order member , he should shut it down, IMO. > > > JMO, > Alla. I agree that this is probably the biggest issue DD and Snape neglected to address. And I think it was *part* of what motivated Harry to neglect the Occlumency lessons. After all, if he could do something useful with the connection to LV, then why shouldn't he use it? Why listen to DD and Snape's assertions that he had to block the connection? What do they know anyway? Partly that is teenage reasoning, of course, thus natural for Harry. It's also natural teenage ego for Harry to believe he could control the connection, to believe himself indestructible. And in Harry's specific case, the fact that he'd previously defeated Voldemort (with help, but still he'd survived the encounters intact), just added to his blind confidence. The second reason Harry neglected the lessons was because of extreme curiosity, and nothing else. He *had* to know what was behind that door. It was driving him crazy to nearly get there, to be so close to having his burning curiosity satisfied, then to be denied again. Basically, he was obsessed, and I suspect that was largely Voldemort's doing. As for blame, DD took the largest part of it, not only because he did bear a large part of the responsibility, but because he wanted to spare Harry from being overwhelmed with guilt while Harry is still reeling from the death of his godfather. But in the end, once he's quit shifting all the blame onto Snape, Harry will blame himself. THANK GOD. Because if Harry didn't recognize that his own mistakes, as well those of DD and Snape, led to the confrontation at the DoM and the resulting death of Sirius (whose own mistake also contributed to his death), then there would be little hope of Harry becoming the man he is destined to be. Accepting blame for our own mistakes is part of the maturing process for all of us. That said, another part of maturing is putting it all into perspective. Harry (as well as DD, Snape, and Sirius) all made mistakes that ultimately *led* to the confrontation between Sirius and Bellatrix. But none of them killed Sirius. That was Bellatrix's doing alone. When Harry recognizes that fact, then he will truly be able to accept the loss of his godfather and move on. Julie From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 07:05:05 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 07:05:05 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Pranks, Bullies, Nerds, School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > a_svirn: > > Well, in GoF Voldemort "forced" Harry to come to the Graveyard, > while in OOP he just gave Harry information and waited patiently for > Harry to "freely" make up his mind. > > Does it mean that Voldemort mellowed a bit over the year? That his > behaviour in OOP is less murderous than in GoF? And if not, why we > should apply different criteria to Sirius? If he *wanted* to kill > Snape it doesn't matter in the least whether he "forced" him or > lured him into the Shack playing on his weaknesses. In fact the > latter seems even more cynical, especially considering that the > betrayal of his friend was involved. If he didn't intend to kill or > even to play a prank and the whole business was an accident ? well, > then there is nothing more to say. It doesn't seem likely though. > > > a_svirn: bboyminn: Ooooo, nice one...close by no cigar. If you are going to apply this analogy to the overal discussion, then you shouldn't compare Sirius to Voldemort, although that does have some merit, you need to analogize Harry to Snape. In GoF, Harry is force to go to the graveyard. It's absolutely out of his control ....poof! and he's gone. In OotP, just like Snape, Harry made a conscious decision and a direct determined concerted effort to go. Therefore, as anyone can see, Harry does hold a share of the blame for what happened at the Dept of Mysteries. However, as Dumbledore clearly points out in the 'wrap up' talk, Dumbledore and the people around Harry take the bulk of the blame. And of course, Voldemort like Sirius holds blame in all cases. I've been a major factor in the discussion of this particular subject, but I have never claimed that all the blame falls on Snape, nor have I claimed that no blame falls on Snape. What I have claimed is that /some/ degree of blame does fall on Snape, but without the details of that incident, we can't really determine how much. To state the obvious, the more blame Snape holds, the less falls on Sirius, and conversely, the less blame that falls on Snape, the more blame falls on Sirius. But exactly how much fall where, we don't know. I would agree perhaps that Sirius was surely malicious in his intent, but he may have informed Snape in a way, as illustrated by my sample scenarios, in which he wasn't or at least tried not to be malicious in his actions. There is a difference. However, that difference in no way excuses Sirius, and in no way makes him blameless. In all cases, for his intent, Sirius will alway share the blame. But again, without the details, we can't determine what degree of blame falls where. I can confidently say that all parties share blame, but the real question is how much? Side note: Someone else said in responding to this thread that James (and/or Sirius) IS a bully. While I'm grammar nitpicking, the story tells us that James WAS a bully. The point is, that at some point James saw that petty schoolboy bullying would not carry him far in real life, and he changed his ways. That explains why everyone, near the end of his school career and in his later life thought so highly of him. Short version, he wised up and grew up. I will also re-enforce what some one else said on the subject of bullies in school. Frequently they are very popular and priviledge students. They are the star of the football team. They may have rich parents. They are probably good looking and can afford nice clothes. In short, they tend to be the popular kids. In reality, they are the generic suburban middle-class mass market high-consumer 'Pop' culture kids, and god have mercy on anyone who dares not to conform to that perfect 'Pop' image. Short version, 'That which does not validate me, is not valid'. I always found it very odd, when the jocks are picking on the nerds, there never seems to be a teacher around, but the minute a nerd retaliates and defends himself, the teacher seem to come flying out of the woodwork. Highschool has to be the strangest most disfunctional yet supported and encouraged social structure on earth. Sorry for the rant, but I couldn't help myself. Steve/bboyminn From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 5 10:42:08 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 10:42:08 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: <42A23EBD.1010206@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene wrote: > The truth is that most people are just not prepared to believe that a > handsome, clever, popular and (most important) socially fitting boy is a > bully. Especially if he chooses his targets carefully. People will go to > extraordinary lengths to find excuses for him, and perform the most > amazing mental equilibristics on the way. I think it is a bit more complicated. A person can be a bully to another person, and to the rest of the world a genuinely kind, nice guy. That is why they are socially fitting, because most of the time they are social. I think this was the case with James and Sirius. They probably bullied people who 'deserved it' e.g. people with a fascination for the dark arts like Snape. And especially if the target fights back, it is difficult to see the bullying, but it becomes easy in the eyes of the grown up, to just see children fighting among each other, with the one who first resorts to physical violence (or nasty hexes) in the wrong. What seems to be the worst offence: giving someone a mouth full of soap bubbles (James)or gashing a face (Snape)? Gerry From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 5 11:00:36 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:00:36 -0000 Subject: Changing the title because I'm tired of it, was "Some won't like it". The Sc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130088 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > Trust is a tricky thing. There's a big difference between trusting > someone because someone else vouches for them, and trusting someone > because you yourself know (experientially too) that someone is > trustworthy. The latter is built out of experience and over time. > > Think of Ron and Hermione and their contrasting perspectives. > Hermione trusts Snape because Dumbledore does; she's willing to take > him as The Truth And The Guide. Ron doesn't trust Snape; he wants to > know for himself, and is not willing to take the word of an > interlocutor. Well, actually I don't see it that way. Both Ron and Harry do not like Snape. They have known Snape for almost five years, so they have experienced him as a very nast teachter and as the saviour of Harry's life. They have no reason not to trust Snape, any other than that he is not a nice person. Hermione even points it out to Ron: 'How many times have you suspected Snape and when have you ever been right?' Hermione uses her own experiences of Snape, together with her faith in DD to come to the conclusion that he is indeed trustworthy. She does not get her emotions about Snape get in the way of her evaluation. Their main point is that the occlumency lessons weaken Harry, instead of helping him. Do the do any research on occlumency to see if this is a normal proces? Does Harry tell Ron he does not really practice, and that might create a problem too? No. It is easier to go with their emotions and blame Snape than use their brains. If Harry would have had the same problems with a teacher he would have liked, it would not have entered either Harry's or Ron's brains that the teacher could be the problem. Gerry From empooress at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 04:15:14 2005 From: empooress at yahoo.com (Kim McGibony) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scary MoM possibility In-Reply-To: <1117845392.1597.57062.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050605041514.92548.qmail@web52101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130089 Leb wrote: "One of my predictions was that Umbridge would get credit for the inordinately high pass rate for DADA owls which was really because of Harry's tutoring in the DA. But, to take that a step further . . . What if Umbridge is made the new MoM because the ministry is looking for someone strong in DADA and they mistakenly think her the expert? Just gives you the shivers thinking about it. Does anyone else think this may be a possibility?" I had thought it might be possible as, at the end of OotP, she was still Undersecratery. Not having my book handy, I can't quote the text, but I'm sure at some point she said she was second in line under Fudge. I believe this was in McGonagall's office during Harry's career conference. Hadn't really thought about her being considered an expert, that could just seal the deal, so to speak. Empooress __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun Jun 5 13:33:52 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 06:33:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Explaining the danger to Harry (was: Changing the title because I'm tired of it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801c569d3$3815dce0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130090 As for blame, DD took the largest part of it, not only because he did bear a large part of the responsibility, but because he wanted to spare Harry from being overwhelmed with guilt while Harry is still reeling from the death of his godfather. But in the end, once he's quit shifting all the blame onto Snape, Harry will blame himself. THANK GOD. Because if Harry didn't recognize that his own mistakes, as well those of DD and Snape, led to the confrontation at the DoM and the resulting death of Sirius (whose own mistake also contributed to his death), then there would be little hope of Harry becoming the man he is destined to be. Accepting blame for our own mistakes is part of the maturing process for all of us. That said, another part of maturing is putting it all into perspective. Harry (as well as DD, Snape, and Sirius) all made mistakes that ultimately *led* to the confrontation between Sirius and Bellatrix. But none of them killed Sirius. That was Bellatrix's doing alone. When Harry recognizes that fact, then he will truly be able to accept the loss of his godfather and move on. Julie Sherry now: Excellent post, Julie. I think you clarified what so many of us have been trying to say. The only thing I would like to point out is that I doubt that the best occlumency lessons with all the detailed explanations in the world would have stopped Harry going to the ministry to rescue Sirius. The incident with Arthur and the snake would have made him feel he couldn't risk waiting to find out. He may have taken some better precautions, tried harder to find an adult he could trust to help, but he would still have gone. Would any of us have just sat around and waited, if we believed our dearest loved one was in deadly danger? We'd call the police and then we'd rush off to try to help. I am so against the idea of Harry ever blaming himself or accepting blame for that. Of course, he will blame himself, as would anyone. But to me, there is only one person to blame, two actually, Bella and Voldemort. Sherry From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 13:52:50 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:52:50 -0000 Subject: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130091 Alla: And nobody explained to him why despite the fact the hesaved an order member , he should shut it down, IMO.< Betsy Hp: Okay, I'm tired and just about to go to bed so I apologize in advance if I sound snarky, but what part about THE DARK LORD KNOWS YOU WERE IN HIS HEAD!! HE IS NOW TRYING TO GET INTO YOURS!!! do folks who *insist* Harry had no earthly idea that anything was wrong not understand? What part of YOU MEAN HE COULD MAKE ME FEEL OR DO THINGS? SIR? comes across as "Errrr... I don't understand what you said there professor, could you maybe use one syllable words and a picture book, please? I mean, yes I'm fifteen, but remember when you called me an idiot back in the day and I cried and cried and cried? Turns out you were right."??!?!??!??!???! Seriously -- answer me that. I might start to take arguments about Harry the dewy-eyed innocent a little more seriously if there wasn't such a blatent refusal to deal with canon taking place. (And there's a large group of you, so this isn't directed at you personally, Alla. I'm honestly curious as to why folks feel like the above scene and Dumbledore's FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BOY -- LEARN OCCLUMENCY OR ALL IS LOST!! scene are completely disregarded.) Alla: Ummm, Betsy, nobody ignores that part of canon ( myself included) . :-) People actually addressed it ( myself included) several times but before I do some quoting I will be happy to reiterate the gist of my answer to you. :-) Voldie is ALWAYS in Harry's head and he is aware of it. What he had NOT been explained is what CHANGED, why despite the fact that he saved Arthur with that connection, he cannot do that anymore. I can perfectly see that in Harry's mind for example to continue keep the connection would be the greater good and nobody told him why it won't be. The clumsy attempt at explanation was given by Harry's least trusted teacher, who did not even bother confirm that that is what Dumbledore thinks "Is it what professore Dumbledore guesses? I told you to call me Sir" ( paraphrase) Harry has no reason to trust Snape, IMO. He has no reason to believe anything Snape says. Here again I repeat myself - Snape spend five years cultivating emnity and mistrust between them . It finally blew up in his and Dumbledore's face. I'd say it is about time. :-) Phoenixgod in the message 130058 said: "As other people pointed out Harry was specifically belittled and made to feel unimportant by Snape during the lessons. I don't think that impressed on Harry the seriousness of the situation. To him, I think he saw the lessons as onerus make-work, and yet another cross added to his burden. As for DD, he had done precious little that year to earn any goodwill for Harry. And I certainly wouldn't put any trust in a man who wouldn't look me in the eye for a year either. Remember, while this is a short period of time for a novel, the time span is a year. that is days upon days, weeks upon weeks, and months upon months of being left in the dark, isolated, beset on all sides by enemies both within and without the school. That is a long damn time for Dumbledore to leave Harry twisting in the wind." Eggplant in 130005 said : "Ok, let's see what the book says. When the subject is first brought up Harry asks: "Why do I have to study Occlu? thing?" Snape replies: "Because the Headmaster thinks it a good idea," Harry tries again: "`But why does Professor Dumbledore want to stop it?' he asked abruptly. 'I don't like it much, but it's been useful, hasn't it? I mean I saw that snake attack Mr Weasley and if I hadn't, Professor Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to save him, would he? '" After a long string of insults the closest thing to an answer to Harry's very reasonable question is: "It appears that the Dark Lord has been unaware of the connection between you and himself until very recently". Harry tries a third time: "'How do you know?' said Harry urgently. 'Is this just Professor Dumbledore guessing, or -?' 'I told you,' said Snape, rigid in his chair, his eyes slits, 'to call me "sir".' 'Yes, sir,' said Harry impatiently, 'but how do you know -?' 'It is enough that we know,' said Snape" So let's review, Snape says that Dumbledore says various things but Harry has a very deep distrust of Snape and has no way of knowing if that is true because the Headmaster won't talk to him or even look at him. Snape says the lessons will strengthen his mind but Harry finds from direct experience that the exact opposite seems to be happening. So who should Harry believe, Snape or his eyes. To top it off the lessons are extremely unpleasant and literally make him sick. Perhaps it's just me but I wouldn't find that situation entirely satisfactory. Would that give you a incentive, would that be enough to make you diligently study a distasteful subject from a teacher who despises you, especially when you know that if you'd mastered it a month ago your best friend's father would be dead?" Alla: So, I don't think anybody is ignoring anything here , Betsy. I just find whatever bits and pieces of info were given to Harry extremely unsatisfactory AND I also find a messenger to be very unsatisfactory. :-) Oh, and perhaps you will be surprised but I am not even arguing that Harry was entirely right. :-) He sure made some mistakes and I am sure will recognise them, BUT when I start COMPARING his mistakes and Dumbledore and Snape, then Harry's mistakes pale to me. Then I cannot assign more than tiny percentage of blame to Harry, because I find what Dumbledore and Snape did so eggregious. But if I analyse Harry by himself, sure he had his share of mistakes. Just my opinion, Alla. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 5 14:14:01 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 14:14:01 -0000 Subject: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Voldie is ALWAYS in Harry's head and he is aware of it. What he had > NOT been explained is what CHANGED, why despite the fact that he > saved Arthur with that connection, he cannot do that anymore. Gerry: He heard enough and experienced enough to know this was not a simple one way ride: "But as Dubledore's fingers closed over Harry's skin, a pain shot through the scar on his forehad he he felt again that terrible, snakelike longing to strike Dumbledore, to bite him, to hurt him -" OoP. And that is the second time this happens. It surely would not take a genius to figure out that there is far more to the connection Harry is aware of, especially after he heard the comment of Moody in the hospital about the possibillity of LV possessing him. That there is potential danger there. Gerry From jferer at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 14:32:10 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 14:32:10 -0000 Subject: Changing the title because I'm tired of it, was "Some won't like it". The Sc In-Reply-To: <004601c56954$c39023e0$cb58aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130093 Phoenixgod: " Funny I don't recall him being given an Auror pin or a phoenix badge. Harry isn't a soldier and he wasn't drafted into any organization (except maybe by destiny). Dumbledore didn't give him a junior fledging Order of the Phoenix card." Harry's got something more than that. The fate of the wizard world is on his shoulders, and he knows it, knew it even before the Prophecy was completely revealed to him. Yeah, he's been drafted. Sybil Trelawney delivered his notice. He's taken his one step forward, and he's in. Phoenixgod:" Snape isn't in authority over him when it comes to his 'remedial potion lessons'. Occulomency is completely outside of his authority as a school teacher." Amanda: "I disagree on a couple of points. One, even if it is for a purpose outside the standard lesson, it *is* something the headmaster of a school has asked this particular master to teach this particular student." That's good enough reason. Harry's a student to be educated, and Dumbledore decides who needs what. There's no United Federation of Teachers here to argue that Occlumency isn't in Snape's job description. Plus, see above. Harry is committed. It would have been much better if someone had explained the need for Occlumency better. Adults can be told to shut up and pay attention, but adolescents are what they are and need to be told a little more. Amanda:"Snape gave it, but Harry didn't understand it. It was important that, until the channel could be controlled or turned off, that Harry not know too much, because it was a clear and present danger that Voldemort would become aware of, and then use, that channel for intelligence and manipulation purposes." That's right, and Harry should have had it explained to him. He's not the only one guilty of poor communication. Snape's explanation was grudging, curt, and unsatisfactory. It would have been easy, probably from someone else: "Harry, it's going to be difficult, but you must learn Occlumency so that Voldemort can't enter your mind. We must shut off this link. If we don't, then he can learn things from you or use the link to deceive you. That is why there are things we cannot tell you until we know your mind is safe from Voldemort." Amanda: "Awww. Poor baby. Here he is, the center of the universe, and nobody's telling him anything. After all he's suffered and gone through and done. Poor woobie. Hey, sometimes the answer is "you can't know that yet" and sometimes the situation is an emergency." Yes, but this situation wasn't like that. Why should Harry have been told more? Because it would have furthered the mission, and that's all that matters. Human nature says that people work together better the more they understand what it's all for. Actually, if Harry had been made to understand more of what was going on, he could have taken "you can't know that yet" better when it was necessary. Amanda: "I think Severus Snape controls a great deal of emotion. He's usually quite controlled. That's the main reason that it stands out so when his control slips. Yes, if Harry would ever see Snape as Snape, I think there are many skills there he could benefit from." I think Snape owns the Harry/Snape problem. Snape has had a grudge against Harry since Day One, and Harry didn't know Snape from Snape-ola when he arrived. Snape's behavior makes it impossible for Harry to benefit from Snape's skills. And Snape's not nearly as much of an adult as he should be. He's still the greasy oddball kid who was a persecuted outcast at school. He can't even tell the difference between his tormentor and his son. We're asking more maturity from fifteen year old Harry than from forty year old Snape. Jim Ferer From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 5 15:06:37 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:06:37 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Draco In-Reply-To: <20050605055403.33748.qmail@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130094 Metylda wrote: > Draco's birthday was noted on JKR's site today - June > 5th. That makes Draco a Gemini and older than Harry. Hannah now: It's also very interesting from the point of view of future plot developments. Draco Malfoy is a 'baddie' - or has certainly been portrayed as one so far. Last year his birthday passed without any comment from JKR on the website (it was up and running then, wasn't it?). Is JKR merely putting it there to please the legions of Draco fans? Or does it foreshadow a change in JKR's own attitude to Draco and a possible 'redemption' storyline in HBP? I'm not a fan of Draco, and have in the past been against the idea that he might get 'reformed' at some point in canon. But now I'm starting to wonder if there might be something of that sort after all. I'm not talking about a fanfiction style full conversion, seeing Draco best friends with Harry, dating Hermione or Ginny, and generally an all round good guy. But perhaps he will see the error of the 'dark side' and decide not to follow the same path as his father (or perhaps I've been watching too much Star Wars). JKR has said she finds the Draco worship very worrying - yet by wishing him 'happy birthday' she seems to be changing her tune. Then there's the infamous 'Draco's Detour' chapter of HBP, and that deleted scene where she'd 'wanted to show how Draco acted when with someone he considered an equal.' It seems late in the day for JKR to bring about a conversion of her junior arch-baddie, yet I'm beginning to wonder if that is what she has in mind. Or is she just leading along all the poor fangirls out there? Surely not. Hannah From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 15:05:33 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:05:33 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Draco In-Reply-To: <20050605055403.33748.qmail@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Metylda wrote: > Draco's birthday was noted on JKR's site today - June > 5th. That makes Draco a Gemini and older than Harry.>> ta! > bamf I guess that settles the debate (re:Lupin) about whether bad guys are every wished Happy B-day on JKR's site. TK -- TigerPatronus From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 15:59:35 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050605155935.94706.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130096 > Betsy Hp: > Okay, I'm tired and just about to go to bed so I apologize in > advance if I sound snarky, but what part about THE DARK LORD KNOWS > YOU WERE IN HIS HEAD!! HE IS NOW TRYING TO GET INTO YOURS!!! do > folks who *insist* Harry had no earthly idea that anything was > wrong > not understand? > Alla: > > Voldie is ALWAYS in Harry's head and he is aware of it. What he had > NOT been explained is what CHANGED, why despite the fact that he > saved Arthur with that connection, he cannot do that anymore. > I totally agree with Betsy. I'm going to quote a big chunk of text here because it's the part where Harry asks an imporant question and gets an answer. This is the part of canon that told Harry that things had changed and that precedes the quote Betsy used (important parts in CAPS): "But why does Professor Dumbledore want to stop it [the dreams]?" he [Harry] asked abruptly. "I don't like it much but it's been useful hasn't it? I mean...I saw that snake attack Mr. Weasley and if I hadn't, Professor Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to save him, would he? Sir?" Snape stared at Harry for a few moments, still tracing his mount with his finger. When he spoke again, it was slowly and deliberately, as though he weighed every word. "It appears that the Dark Lord has been unaware of the connection between you and himself until very recently. Up till now it seems that you have been experiencing his emotions, and sharing his thoughts, WITHOUT HIS BEING ANY THE WISER. However, the vision you had shortly before Christmas -" "The one with the snake and Mr. Weasley?" "Do not interrupt me, Potter," said Snape in a dangerous voice..... ...But Harry did not care if Snape was angry; AT LAST HE SEEMED TO BE GETTING TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS BUSINESS; HE HAD MOVED FORWARDS IN HIS CHAIR SO THAT, WITHOUT REALIZING IT, HE WAS PERCHED ON THE VERY EDGE, TENSE AS THOUGH POISED FOR FLIGHT.... ..."The important thing is that THE DARK LORD IS NOW AWARE THAT YOU ARE GAINING ACCESS TO HIS THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS. HE HAS ALSO DEDUCED THAT THE PROCESS IS LIKELY TO WORK IN REVERSE; THAT IS TO SAY, HE HAS REALIZED THAT HE MIGHT BE ABLE TO ACCESS YOUR THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS IN RETURN -" "AND HE MIGHT TRY AND MAKE ME DO THINGS?" asked Harry.... So there, that explains clearly to Harry what changed between his having the snake-Arthur vision and the decision to teach him occlumency. I don't care how rude or obnoxious Snape was - this is vital information and it's clear that Harry knows (at the time) that it's important. What no one realizes - and what Dumbledore et al didn't apparently think to check - is how strong these "feelings" of Voldemort's are inside Harry. I'm assuming that it's the churned up anger of Voldemort that leads Harry to take up residence in Stupidville for a large part of the book. To summarize: Harry asked, he was told, he knew what had changed. And in the press of circumstances - he apparently forgot. Magda __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun Jun 5 16:16:55 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 16:16:55 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130097 > JKR has said she finds the Draco worship very worrying - yet by > wishing him 'happy birthday' she seems to be changing her tune. > Then there's the infamous 'Draco's Detour' chapter of HBP, and that > deleted scene where she'd 'wanted to show how Draco acted when with > someone he considered an equal.' It seems late in the day for JKR > to bring about a conversion of her junior arch-baddie, yet I'm > beginning to wonder if that is what she has in mind. > > Or is she just leading along all the poor fangirls out there? > Surely not. > > Hannah JKR has stated that she has had the whole story in her head from the beginning. So it doesn't make sense that she would bow to popular opinion. She knows all about her characters and has gradually fed us bits and pieces that fall into place as the story unfolds. I, for one, think that Draco is not a pure blood and that may be HIS detour - he will have to re-evaluate who he is. The bit and piece? Draco's dad wanted him to go to Dumstrang, his mother did not. She said she didn't want him that far away from home. Why? It is not as if she visits him at Hogwarts. I think that Dumstrang screens its students thoroughly and this would have revealed that Draco (on his mother's side)was not a pure blood. I doubt that Draco and Harry will ever be friends but he may join the DA eventually and fight against his father who turned against him and his mother when the truth was revealed. IMHO of course BG From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 16:27:47 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 16:27:47 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Pranks, Bullies, Nerds, School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130098 > bboyminn: > To state the obvious, the more blame Snape holds, the less falls on > Sirius, and conversely, the less blame that falls on Snape, the more > blame falls on Sirius. But exactly how much fall where, we don't know. a_svirn; That's what I really can't get: what blame? Last time I checked trying to find out what a bunch of Gryffindor bullies and pranksters was up to wasn't a capital offence. Especially since they were up to no good. > bboyminn: > > I would agree perhaps that Sirius was surely malicious in his intent, > but he may have informed Snape in a way, as illustrated by my sample > scenarios, in which he wasn't or at least tried not to be malicious in > his actions. There is a difference. a_svirn: You mean that rather than assault him outright or lie to him outright Sirius gave Snape some options knowing full well that one of them was potentially fatal? You seriously think that it makes it any better? Honestly, Sirius lashing out at Snape for something he'd done (and he might well have done something dreadful) is bad enough. Sirius playing God to alleviate his boredom is simply too disgusting to contemplate. He is not without fault, but I don't think he's as bad as that. From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 5 12:53:06 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:53:06 +0100 Subject: Harry and Cho Message-ID: <000c01c569ce$4464bfc0$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 130099 I suppose one situation dealt with in OotP I have enjoyed studying is the relationship - or perhaps I should say 'failed' relationship between Harry and Cho Chang. At first, I wondered why he handled the situation the way he did, but looking back over the series, we must understand that he has never remembered a mother's love (this is clearly mentioned at the end of Chapter 36 of GoF). His life with the Dursleys has been a life of frustration, hardship and unacceptance. By the time he comes into contact with Cho, he just doesn't know how to handle it. In PoA, we read that when he first saw her, he had a strange feeling that he just couldn't account for. The only way he can describe this to himself was that it had nothing to do with nerves. Throughout GoF, he wants to approach her, but is just too embarrassed. Hermione, I felt, was so kind and helpful to him in OotP when she just very simply tried to explain the situation to him and how he should have handled it. Perhaps Harry will one day see how fortunate he has been to have a girl as a best friend. Derek From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 5 15:48:54 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:48:54 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130100 "festuco" wrote: > That does not mean Harry is blameless > here. If he had used his brains, if > he had paid attention to his occlumency lessons Harry did use his brains. Snape, a man he despised and distrusted said his Occlumency lessons would strengthen his mental defenses, however Harry used his brains and found from direct experience that this was not true, it made him weaker. This discrepancy is never explained in book 5. My theory is that Snape couldn't stand giving something as powerful as Occlumency to Harry so he, perhaps unconsciously, sabotaged the lessons. I predict that in the next book Dumbledore will personally teach it and Harry will pick it up in 5 minutes flat. > DD has founded a society to > actively oppose him [Voldemort]. So did Harry, and he did it at the age of 15 not 150. > He saved Harry's life two times And Harry saved the entire world at least three times. Eggplant From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun Jun 5 16:37:36 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 16:37:36 -0000 Subject: Changing the title because I'm tired of it, was "Some won't like it". The Sc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130101 Why should Harry have been told more? Because it would have furthered the mission, and that's all that matters. Human nature says that people work together better the more they understand what it's all for. Actually, if Harry had been made to understand more of what was going on, he could have taken "you can't know that yet" better when it was necessary. BG writes: The key sentence here is "Because it would have furthered the mission". That is exactly where DD knew he had failed not only Harry but the WW. He cared too much about Harry - cared too much to burden him with the prophecy and thus destroy what little childhood Harry had left. His childhood days were not ordinary for certain but he still had a bit of youthful innocence left. Now he must face the fact that he will kill or be killed and the WW depends on him to make the right choices during the dark days ahead, an awful lot for a boy of 16 to shoulder. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 17:16:43 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050605171643.55215.qmail@web32710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130102 festuco wrote: He heard enough and experienced enough to know this was not a simple one way ride: "But as Dubledore's fingers closed over Harry's skin, a pain shot through the scar on his forehad he he felt again that terrible, snakelike longing to strike Dumbledore, to bite him, to hurt him -" OoP. And that is the second time this happens. It surely would not take a genius to figure out that there is far more to the connection Harry is aware of, especially after he heard the comment of Moody in the hospital about the possibillity of LV possessing him. That there is potential danger there. Lynn: Pages 424-425 UK address one reason why Harry may not have understood the seriousness of what was happening. He tells Sirius that he was the snake that attacked Arthur Weasley. Sirius answers that since Dumbledore knows, if it was anything to worry about, Harry would have been told. Harry continues and explains that when Harry looked at Dumbledore he thought he was a snake and wanted to attack Dumbledore. Sirius puts it down to the aftermath of the vision. When Harry persists, Sirius tells Harry that Harry needs to sleep and that he's in shock. In addition, both Sirius and Molly reinforce that if it hadn't been for what Harry saw, Arthur would be dead. We learn at the end that these revelations alarmed Sirius enough to make sure Dumbledore knew about them and the outcome was the Occlumency lessons. So, Harry has been told by an adult he respects and trusts that there really isn't anything to the connection, including the fact that Dumbledore must not think it is anything to worry about. On to telling Harry about the Occulumency lessons (pgs. 458-459). After Snape explains what Occulmency is, Harry's response was to wonder why. "But he was not being possssed, they had all agreed on that...." He asks Snape why he had to study and the response is only that the Headmaster thinks its a good idea. When asked why Dumbledore isn't doing it, Snape's reply is that it is the headmaster's privilege to delegate less enjoyable tasks. Sorry, I don't see anything in these conversations that convey the importance of what is happening to Harry. What I see is the downplaying of the importance of the situation, that it is no big deal and, in fact, not important enough for Dumbledore to get involved. Now, emphasis was placed on the importance for secrecy and under normal circumstances that probably would have been a big clue. However, since everything was a secret due to Umbridge, that did not underscore it's importance. During that first lesson, Harry is focusing on Voldemort reading his mind and Harry Voldemort's, not on the fact that Voldemort could place thoughts into Harry's head. During this session, Harry feels that he is at last getting the information that will make sense of everything. And yet, instead of putting emphasis on the answers to Harry's questions, Snape speaks those dismissively. On to the lessons themselves. "Snape had struck before Harry was ready, before he had even begun to summon any force of resistance." "'Repel me with your brain and you will not need to resort to your wand.' 'I'm trying,' said Harry angrily, 'but you're not telling me how!' 'Manners, Potter,' said Snape dangerously. 'Now, I want you to close your eyes.' Harry threw him a filthy look before doing as he was told. He did not like the idea of standing there with his eyes shut while Snape faced him, carrying a wand." (pg. 471-473 UK) Not a very auspicious beginning to the lessons. Not a great way to ensure the type of trust needed for learning. As we go on, Snape discovers the door Harry has been dreaming about. Harry closely watches for Snapes reaction when he speaks about the Department of Mysteries. What is Snape's response? First it's to yell at Harry for saying 'Voldemort.' Then, Snape lies to Harry. "There are many things in the Department of Mysteries, Potter, few of which you would understand and none of which concern you. Do I make myself plain?" (pg. 475 UK) (pg.471) Seems to me that it would take a genius to wade through the lies, contradictions and dismissiveness of what Harry was experiencing to determine that what was happening was important and serious. Just who or what is Harry to believe when friend and enemy alike are evading or lying to him? Lynn test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 5 17:41:17 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:41:17 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > > DD has founded a society to > > actively oppose him [Voldemort]. Nope, did not. Founded a society to learn defense. > And Harry saved the entire world at least three times. Lets see: He lived because of his Mum, LV was defeated because of HER sacrifice, none of his doing. Saved thw world in book 1: nope, DD did. In book 2: saved Ginny, did he save the world? Nope In book 3: together with Hermione saved Sirius and Buckbeak. In book 4: got out alive, with a lot of luck and help. Saved the world? nope. In book 5: got out alive because the Order came to save his ass. Saved the world? Nope. Gerry From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 5 17:45:26 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:45:26 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "festuco" wrote: > > > That does not mean Harry is blameless > > here. If he had used his brains, if > > he had paid attention to his occlumency lessons > > Harry did use his brains. Snape, a man he despised and distrusted said > his Occlumency lessons would strengthen his mental defenses, however > Harry used his brains and found from direct experience that this was > not true, it made him weaker. This discrepancy is never explained in > book 5. Well, Harry did not do anything to find out more about how occlumency works now, did he? Hermione did, and she told Ron to check up on Harry because he would be weaker after lessons. I'm not going to quote this again. I did so a couple of months ago. As for the distrusting: he had no reason for that at all. So why that is such a big point I cannot imagine. If anything it proves only how easy Harry lets his personal feelings cloud his judgement, something he really, really needs to get over. It is called growing up, and at fifteen it is high time to take such a step. Gerry From doliesl at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 17:47:47 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050605174747.40734.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130105 > Betsy Hp: > Okay, I'm tired and just about to go to bed so I apologize in > advance if I sound snarky, but what part about THE DARK LORD KNOWS > YOU WERE IN HIS HEAD!! HE IS NOW TRYING TO GET INTO YOURS!!! do > folks who *insist* Harry had no earthly idea that anything was wrong > not understand? What part of YOU MEAN HE COULD MAKE ME FEEL OR DO > THINGS? SIR? comes across as "Errrr... I don't understand what you Betsy, in my opinion I think some posters here just wanted to completely excuse poor Harry and argue CanDoNoWrong!Harry and How-Dare-You-Harry-is-always-aboslutely-Right and Let's-Always-Blame-Others so bad that they turn a blind eye to some blalantly obvious things, at least to me as a reader. We read JKR writings for 5 books, the whole passages are like screaming foreshadowing on what will happen. The half second after I read that quote "YOU MEAN HE COULD MAKE ME FEEL OR DO THINGS? SIR?" I get it that instantly. Those who tried to argue "well at the end LV used faux image, not making Harry do stuff, so that's different!~ Blah blah what's the difference? The keypoint is idea of "fatal influence and link from LV through head" is told to Harry, in both obvious and subtle ways, again and again. How dumb can Harry be? Harry IS dumb, this is what everyone agrees because everyone cheers on him being so right in lacking basic logic, basic understanding skill, and lacking in subtlety (which all means we all agree Snape is RIGHT about that at least!). 'But I5 years old are that thick,' as if that is the mantra to convince how all readers cannot have other reaction to the text, because "He's 15" we ought to find such 15 years old idiotic behavior lovable, and must excuse everything to become Harry-Apologist (and engaged in savage pleasure in blaming others,....) > Alla: > > Ummm, Betsy, nobody ignores that part of canon ( myself > included) . :-) > > People actually addressed it ( myself included) several times but > before I do some quoting I will be happy to reiterate the gist of my > answer to you. :-) So ironic that you quote back the so-called "quotes' claim that other person as prove "see? don't think anybody is ignoring anything here", because it exactly points out how deliberately he IGNORE the following passagse. Here's some of the quotes that are 'missing', (paste from other post) ..."The important thing is that THE DARK LORD IS NOW AWARE THAT YOU ARE GAINING ACCESS TO HIS THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS. HE HAS ALSO DEDUCED THAT THE PROCESS IS LIKELY TO WORK IN REVERSE; THAT IS TO SAY, HE HAS REALIZED THAT HE MIGHT BE ABLE TO ACCESS YOUR THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS IN RETURN -" "AND HE MIGHT TRY AND MAKE ME DO THINGS?" asked Harry.... > > Oh, and perhaps you will be surprised but I am not even arguing that > Harry was entirely right. :-) No, I keep reading from this list that people ARE arguing Harry was absolutely right, especially point out how right his attitude in Occlumency lesson (see? because the teacher sucks who can't teach shit, therefore the student is right for not making an effort to practice~ ). Also [people cheer on thow 'absolutely right' Harry for not listening and distrusting Snape, which means such right decision and right attitude also led to the RIGHT decision that to believe the false vision, making the RIGHT decision in going to MoM that led to Sirius's death. Sorry Sirius, you're RIGHT to die, you deserve to die, because every bad decision, oops not bad but RIGHT, bottom line is Harry is right in not practicing. > He sure made some mistakes and I am sure will recognise them, BUT > when I start COMPARING his mistakes and Dumbledore and Snape, then > Harry's mistakes pale to me. >From a non Harry apologist view, I see how every key fatal decision is made by Harry (A: believe in vision, B: stupidly forgetting Snape, C: stupidly conveniently forgetting the mirror, and D: going to MoM). Harry's mistakes is gigantic and he made the decisions himself. Just like how some argue the Prank, it's the one who made the decision to go that's what it's all about. > Then I cannot assign more than tiny percentage of blame to Harry, > because I find what Dumbledore and Snape did so eggregious. It is exactly this arguing of so-called percentage of blame that I find silly and pointless. Well it's different way to read books for different people I guess. Some people take it all about blame game and excuse/apologize for their favorite character. To some people it is all about: to hate and to blame. Does blaming and excusing suddenly make more sense to text/characterization (hell no is my opinion), or convince others to become Harry apologists? To me I enjoyed a story and understands plot devices and things have to happen. Whether I buy the writing and characterization. I'm okay with OOTP, the most problem I have is how blatantly stupid she made Harry and DD to let the story works (since Harry is the hero and the book is all about Harry, and he appears on pages most of the time and he made those 4 decisions, so he's more annoying, hope he redeemed himself in next book). D. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 5 17:59:06 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:59:06 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130106 > Neri: > > First, congratulations for finally coming with the full theory! Pippin: Thank you! Neri: > Regarding the Prank part, I'm not sure what is the scenario that you > are suggesting. I find it difficult to conceive even a single > reasonable scenario in which Remus but *not* Sirius is guilty of a > murder attempt. > > First of all the "timing" issue. Madam Pomfrey would only lock Remus > in the Shack immediately before the time due to the transformation > (no sense to lock the poor kid in there when he's not transformed). > So Severus sees Pomfrey taking Remus in and becomes curious, Sirius > tells him how to get in, Severus (assuming he has some brain left) > waits until Madam Pomfrey is out (and perhaps also until it's > completely dark, so no one will see him), and then he goes in and of > course meets Remus already transformed. I don't see any issue that > needs to be explained with this timing. > Pippin: You're assuming it all happened on one night? I should have made clear that I see the events happening over two moon cycles. Snape sees Lupin being led out to the willow, but Sirius doesn't let Snape know how to get inside until a month later, after they've had four frustrating weeks of being deprived of one of their hideouts, and the hideous realization that with Snape watching the willow, there aren't going to be any more werewolf outings. Unless Lupin can be in two places at once, he couldn't have consulted with the others or found out what Snape had seen until after he'd come out of the willow, and it would have been absurd for Snape to suspect him. Snape's suspicions, while often overblown, are never absurd. Harry *does* know something about the attack on Mrs. Norris, he *does* know something about Sirius's escape, he *does* want the dreams to continue, etc. Only Snape's suspicion that Harry deliberately made Neville look bad is completely off base, and even that makes sense once you realize that Snape's philosophy is "Like father, like son." It does sound like something Pensieve!James might have done. Neri: > Secondly, how could Remus make Severus go into the Willow? You > suggested potions that "bewitch the mind and ensnare the senses", the > confundus charm or Imperius. Assuming 16 yrs old Remus knew how to > use any of these, and he wanted to get rid of the nosy Severus for > good, why not simply order him to step off the astronomy tower or > into the lake or something? Why did he have to involve both his > transformed self and the innocent Sirius at all? To quote 12 yrs old > Ron, have you ever heard of a plan that is more likely to go wrong? Pippin: Of course it went wrong! James found out, for one thing. I'd really like to know how that happened. Did Snape leave a note for Lily, To Be Opened If Anything Happens to Me? But we know from OOP that even someone under Imperius will fight back if they're ordered to do something they know they can't do. If ordered to jump off the Astronomy Tower, Snape would undoubtedly have resisted. But finding out what was inside the willow was something Snape surely wanted to do, it's just that it would have been a lot more sensible to wait. If he could wait for Pomfrey to come out, and wait till it got dark, why not wait until Lupin had come out again? As for why hide behind Sirius and his transformed self, Lupin is a coward, by his own admission. He hides behind Neville when he wants to embarrass Snape in PoA, and he hides behind Snape rather than admit his own culpability for his resignation. He also hides behind Sirius, making up a story that Sirius has learned dark arts from Voldemort, rather than admitting that he led Sirius to become an an animagus and that Sirius knows an unguarded entrance into the school. Pippin From jaxx189 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 16:45:46 2005 From: jaxx189 at yahoo.com (jaxx189) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 16:45:46 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130107 BG: > I doubt that Draco and Harry will ever be friends but he may join > the DA eventually and fight against his father who turned against > him and his mother when the truth was revealed. > > IMHO of course I agree that I do not think that Harry and Draco will ever be friends, but is it possible that when and if these two work together, their relationship will be similar to Snape/Sirius? john hernandez From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 5 16:58:25 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 12:58:25 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday, Draco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A32F31.8070900@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130108 B.G. wrote: >I, for one, think that Draco is not a pure blood and that may be >HIS detour - he will have to re-evaluate who he is. The bit and >piece? Draco's dad wanted him to go to Dumstrang, his mother did >not. She said she didn't want him that far away from home. Why? >It is not as if she visits him at Hogwarts. I think that Dumstrang >screens its students thoroughly and this would have revealed that >Draco (on his mother's side)was not a pure blood. That is an interesting idea, but Draco's mother Narcissa, is a Black. And Sirius has said that his whole family is pureblood. If Narcissa is not pureblood, then neither is Bellatrix, her sister. We know that their other sister Andromeda married a muggle, Ted Tonks -- but she's been basically disavowed from the family. Unless you want to consider the possibility that Narcissa, Andromeda, and Bellatrix are not full sisters -- that their mother had an affair or something. JKR does give hints in names, and Narcissa's name is unique in this generation of the family for not being a name of a heavenly body. Maybe she's a secret love-child... heh... Of course, this is very unlikely given that this series, while more than just a 'kids book' does try to be 'family-oriented'. We do have other half-siblings though, with Hagrid and Grawp. But that's not a 'lovechild' scenario, and if the sisters' mom had been re-married at some point, I'm sure the whole wizarding world would know about it... heather the buzzard From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 18:16:49 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:16:49 -0000 Subject: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) In-Reply-To: <20050605174747.40734.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130109 D: So ironic that you quote back the so-called "quotes' claim that other person as prove "see? don't think anybody is ignoring anything here", because it exactly points out how deliberately he IGNORE the following passagse. Here's some of the quotes that are 'missing', (paste from other post) ..."The important thing is that THE DARK LORD IS NOW AWARE THAT YOU ARE GAINING ACCESS TO HIS THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS. HE HAS ALSO DEDUCED THAT THE PROCESS IS LIKELY TO WORK IN REVERSE; THAT IS TO SAY, HE HAS REALIZED THAT HE MIGHT BE ABLE TO ACCESS YOUR THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS N RETURN -" "AND HE MIGHT TRY AND MAKE ME DO THINGS?" asked Harry.... Alla: Let's finish this quote, shall we? ;) "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. "Which brings us back to Occlumency" - OOP, p.333, paperback. Nope, does not sound to me as stressing importance of the lessons at all. If Snape sounded unconcerned, why exactly should Harry be more concerned than him? D: Also [people cheer on thow 'absolutely right' Harry for not listening and distrusting Snape, which means such right decision and right attitude also led to the RIGHT decision that to believe the false vision, making the RIGHT decision in going to MoM that led to Sirius's death. Sorry Sirius, you're RIGHT to die, you deserve to die, because every bad decision, oops not bad but RIGHT, bottom line is Harry is right in not practicing. Alla: Nope, Harry was not RIGHT not to trust Snape, but he was justified in not trusting Snape, IMO. Snape gave him no reasons to trust him during these five years. Remember ? "Mr. Potter, our new celebrity" Remember than at the end of the POA they tried to tell Snape the TRUTH about what happened. What did they get in response? Oh, yes. The children were confunded. Remember when Harry begged Snape to tell him where Dumbledore is in GoF when Barty Sr. needed help? Yes, I do think that Snape ghave Harry no reasons to trust him whatsoever. And yes, I do remember PS/SS, but Snape sure made a considerable effort to make Harry forget about it. :-) Just my opinion, Alla. From doliesl at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 18:18:51 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 11:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Happy Birthday, Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050605181852.73767.qmail@web30304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130110 > Metylda wrote: > > Draco's birthday was noted on JKR's site today - June > > 5th. That makes Draco a Gemini and older than Harry. TK: >I guess that settles the debate (re:Lupin) about whether bad guys are > every wished Happy B-day on JKR's site. Yeah some people must feeling silly now ;DDDD Be consistence people, if past posts always indicates one's stand in believing Snape/Percy are horrible evil baddies then one can't use the "but no baddies are ever wished happy birthday" argument as support to whatever. Now here's Draco, one more nail to the coffin. > Hannah now: It's also very interesting from the point of view of > future plot developments. Draco Malfoy is a 'baddie' - or has > certainly been portrayed as one so far. Last year his birthday > passed without any comment from JKR on the website (it was up and > running then, wasn't it?). Draco's birthday wasn't passed over last year was it? I remember the birthday celebration started last year in July, starting with Neville and Harry's birthday. > Is JKR merely putting it there to please the legions of Draco fans? I'm no Draco fan, but even I'd rather know about Draco's birthday than some other minor 'who cares' characters like Professor Sprout, Bill and Charlie. I most wanted to know DD. (and I was dead sure Sirius was have an Aries birthday, guess he's either definitely dead for a birthday wish or it's coming up, and we either have more Gemini or Cancer). I like to check signs (and so far it's been quite true to each characters) Here's a bit on signs from freeastrology.org Gemini is Mercury signs: In mythology, Mercury is the messenger of the Gods, and hence is the symbol of communication and travel. Its influence on your natal chart is on the way in which you think and express yourself. But Mercury is also the trickster, he is - literally - mercurial, not always quite what he seems, and is therefore also associated with transformation (particularly self-transformation) and change Keyword is "trickster, change and transformation" So I speculate a transformation of Draco in HBP (either for better or worst) D. From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 5 17:21:11 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:21:11 -0400 Subject: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) In-Reply-To: <20050605155935.94706.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050605155935.94706.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A33487.90004@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130111 Magda Grantwich wrote: >..."The important thing is that THE DARK LORD IS NOW AWARE THAT >YOU ARE GAINING ACCESS TO HIS THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS. HE HAS ALSO >DEDUCED THAT THE PROCESS IS LIKELY TO WORK IN REVERSE; THAT IS TO >SAY, HE HAS REALIZED THAT HE MIGHT BE ABLE TO ACCESS YOUR THOUGHTS >AND FEELINGS IN RETURN -" > >"AND HE MIGHT TRY AND MAKE ME DO THINGS?" asked Harry.... > >So there, that explains clearly to Harry what changed between his >having the snake-Arthur vision and the decision to teach him >occlumency. I don't care how rude or obnoxious Snape was - this >is vital information and it's clear that Harry knows (at the time) >that it's important. > >What no one realizes - and what Dumbledore et al didn't apparently >think to check - is how strong these "feelings" of Voldemort's are >inside Harry. I'm assuming that it's the churned up anger of >Voldemort that leads Harry to take up residence in Stupidville for >a large part of the book. > >To summarize: Harry asked, he was told, he knew what had changed. > >And in the press of circumstances - he apparently forgot. heather the buzzard: Here's my take on it. Harry was starting to get to the bottom of it, this is true. He comes to the correct conclusion. But when he gets there, Snape does not concretely confirm it, but brushes it aside. This is point #1 -- Snape could have (and probably should have) said "yes, Harry, that is exactly what we're afraid of -- he could plant more dreams in your head that are not real, he could trick you into believing falsehoods." I think when Harry was talking about "make me do things" he's thinking of a more direct Imperius sort of control. He's not made the further step of considering a more devious route, of planting false information and then leaving Harry to 'do' things by himself. Note that in the end, Voldemort did NOT actually 'make' Harry do anything. Harry chose to do things based on what he had seen; noone had properly explained to him, though, that the things he sees might not be *true*. So far as he could tell, he was still just seeing what Voldemort saw, and Voldemort hadn't yet done anything to try to control him. But I get ahead of myself. At this point, I believe Harry did try to do the Occlumency as best as he could, at least at first. It was difficult, and here is point #2: Snape was not actually that much help. Rather than telling him what to do to protect his mind, he just said "Ok, I'm going to attack your mind, try to keep me out." Okay, but HOW?? "Clear your mind of all emotions". Okay, but HOW? That's a horrendously difficult thing to do even when you're in a GOOD mood. When you're insanely worried about a Dark Lord seeing into your mind, your best friends (adult ones anyway) are ignoring you, you're feeling put upon by the world (whether a just and defensible feeling or not, that doesn't change the fact that the feeling is there), it is just not so easy to just turn it all off! Snape tells him to practice by clearing his head of emotion every night -- and leaves the instruction at that. Once again, Okay, but HOW? Perhaps Snape is so used to doing it easily himself that he has forgotten how difficult it is to start -- a common mistake made by pedagogues in any field. When Harry does poorly on his first attempts, Snape doesn't say "hey, that wasn't bad for a beginner, now try doing it this way and it should be even better". He basically says "you numbskull, that sucked, you're never going to be any good at this that way, you're not trying, you're going to fail." Which surely helps Harry to control his emotions... [/sarcasm] Snape's constant insulting manner and denigration of Harry's attempts only adds to Harry's emotional burden, making it MORE difficult to clear his mind. Wonderful teaching methods, professor! When his initial efforts meet with little to no success and insults rather than educational suggestions for improvement, it's little wonder that Harry starts to lose what motivation he had to start with. He still knows it's important, but when he did try, he got nowhere, so why bother continuing to try? Which brings us to point #3. With things not going well with Snape, he starts to find himself feeling actually weaker. He starts to wonder if the sessions themselves are the cause of this, which further weakens his faltering motivation. From there it's a vicious circle... He's giving up. It's sad, it's pitiable, you could argue that he should have been stronger and tried harder, but I would argue that he was just pushed too hard, too far, with not enough support underneath him and he fell. It was too difficult for him to master under the kind of pressure and the 'teaching methods' Snape was using. I really think Harry's failure at Occlumency is only in small part due to him 'not being explained to' properly. Yes, I think there should have been more explanation, but yes he did have a decent idea to the reason. But the teaching ITSELF was the greater cause. What little motivation he had to start with was beaten out of him by Snape's constant belittling, by his own psychic fatigue, by his paranoia that it was only making things worse. He should have been trying harder, yes, but I would submit that these are the reasons why he was giving up. Add into this the 'curiosity factor' (point #4)... that he did want to see what was behind that door, EVEN THOUGH he knew he was supposed to be blocking and ignoring these dreams. He was weak to do so, no argument from me there. But it was still real, that intense curiosity, and whether he rationalized it to himself or it was legitimate, he felt that noone had properly explained to him why he shouldn't open the door -- wasn't he still just seeing what Voldemort saw? Refer to point #1 -- 'making me do something' isn't the same thing as 'planting false images' in his mind. He had the precedent that his visions were reliable on several occasions. So long as all he was seeing were dreams and visions, he felt (with the brazenness of youth) that he was still in control. He wasn't hearing voices, he wasn't being controlled to actually do things. He was only seeing things. He was mistaken, but I don't blame him 100% for this. heather the buzzard From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 5 18:53:56 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:53:56 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130112 Pippin: > As for why hide behind Sirius and his transformed self, Lupin > is a coward, by his own admission. He hides behind Neville > when he wants to embarrass Snape in PoA, and he hides > behind Snape rather than admit his own culpability for > his resignation. He also hides behind Sirius, making up > a story that Sirius has learned dark arts from Voldemort, > rather than admitting that he led Sirius to become an > an animagus and that Sirius knows an unguarded > entrance into the school. > SSSusan: I know we'll never agree on this, so I shouldn't even try, but.... ;-) You see that scene as Lupin hiding BEHIND Neville in order to embarrass Snape. I see it as Lupin helping Neville STEP UP to take on Snape and return a bit of the humiliation Snape's forced him to take over the years. While I think Lupin has some concerns where cowardice is involved, this scene never struck me as cowardly at all. Siriusly Snapey Susan From doliesl at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 19:04:35 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050605190435.72455.qmail@web30310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130113 > Alla: > > Let's finish this quote, shall we? ;) > > "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. "Which brings > us back to Occlumency" - OOP, p.333, paperback. > > Nope, does not sound to me as stressing importance of the lessons at > all. If Snape sounded unconcerned, why exactly should Harry be more > concerned than him? See this is exactly the sorry excuse apologists hang onto that painted Harry's character so incredibly petty and pathetic. So the 'why it's dangerous and important' point is already made, but posters here often screamed "NO THEY DIDN"T TELL HIM ANYTHING!!!!" Again and again. Then everytime someone quote (and in this sorry ironic post you have to chose to quote, that person deliberately miss the key passage), then you all changed to "well then the importance and danger not emphasizes enough~" Yeah it'd never be enough for apologist alright because the point is to excuse Harry to squeaky white clean. (Then can we stop the "but they didn't tell him a thing at all'?). And I'd tell you, NOTHING will ever be enough, not a good teacher Lupin will do, and you know why, because then THERE'D BE NO STORY!). The key for me is Harry is so stupid to that it just went over his head because it sure didn't went over mine, as a reader I GOT it as an omen like half a second, and I can't stand stupid hero. Harry is not only stupid, lacking common sense and ignorant to understand, he's so thick to the point (yet he thinks Grabbe and Goyle are dumb?) where he must relied on the other party(ies) to pound an exclamation mark at the end, figurative speaking of course. It's all about other, NEVER me~~~ Gosh this made Harry sound so petty and stupid. Point is made, Harry also saids it himself, yet he deliberately didn't care for it. He made that decision. And he screw up himself, making one fatal mistakes after another, it's his story, they were his decisions. It's all about him and no matter what, it's always Harry. It is exactly Harry's own mistakes that makes the consequence tragic events heartbreaking, and the whole laughable pointless 'percentage of blame" games takes away the powerful impact of Harry's tradegy and making Harry a sorry, petty, whiny irresponsible 'it's all other people fault, see let's calculate _excuses and excuse_ and see how I only shed 1% ok" brat. > Alla: > > Nope, Harry was not RIGHT not to trust Snape, but he was justified > in not trusting Snape, IMO. Snape gave him no reasons to trust him > during these five years. So? Again, the book is about Harry, not Snape, it's still Harry's own sorry decisions to act certain way that led the story. Sirius's to die because Harry's sorry decision(s). If whatever Harry feels like is justified, that's only justified in the sense of "story and character relationship is setup that way, must happen this way', not to excuse how Harry's decisions to act certain way are sooooo not sorry and not bad, as Harry apologists insist. D. From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 18:30:57 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 14:30:57 -0400 Subject: Puss Theory In-Reply-To: <42A25E63.90106@sympatico.ca> References: <099a188b3bbcbbb9cb3a6d7dcd20df68@comcast.net> <42A25E63.90106@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <42A344E1.3030500@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130114 heather the buzzard wrote: > As for the idea of regular cats protecting squibs... Hm. Cats > are one common variety of witches' 'familiars' so again I don't > think it's much of a stretch, though it is interesting that we > haven't really seen any pet cats in the books with anyone who > was NOT a squib. Hermione would tell you straight away that Millicent Bulstrode, in Slytherin, had a cat! And she is surely not a squib. Michelle From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 5 19:05:30 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:05:30 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130115 "festuco" wrote: > Nope, did not. Founded a society > to learn defense. Yep, he did. Within months of its founding it was battling Voldemort and his Death Eaters. > He lived because of his Mum Yes that is true, he would not exist without his mother. Or his father. > none of his doing. If true then none of Dumbledore's accomplishments were his doing either, he's the man he is because of his genes and his environment and he controls neither. Just because you can explain why a person did a great thing does not make it any less great. > Saved thw world in book 1: nope Yep. He save the world twice in book 1. > In book 2: saved Ginny, did he save the world? Nope Yep. Without Harry Voldemort would have returned in book 2. > In book 4: got out alive, with a lot of luck and help. He got out because Harry was stronger than Voldemort at magical arm wrestling. Harry forced Voldemort's wand to regurgitate old spells not the other way round. > In book 5: got out alive because > the Order came to save his ass. And also because Voldemort wasn't strong enough to posses Harry for more than a few seconds, even though he'd shown the ability to posses Ginny and even a Dark Arts teacher for months at a time. Eggplant From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jun 5 19:24:28 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17ptf) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:24:28 -0000 Subject: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130116 Alla wrote: > > Oh, and perhaps you will be surprised but I am not even arguing that > Harry was entirely right. :-) > > He sure made some mistakes and I am sure will recognise them, BUT > when I start COMPARING his mistakes and Dumbledore and Snape, then > Harry's mistakes pale to me. > > Then I cannot assign more than tiny percentage of blame to Harry, > because I find what Dumbledore and Snape did so eggregious. > I'm not surprised, Alla ;-) I think just about everyone is assigning some blame to each of the three parties above (and even to Sirius, because he took Bellatrix far too lightly). But you've probably hit on the crux of the matter, which is how much blame we assign to each person. Again, I think it is not only incorrect but it would be damaging to assign Harry only a *tiny* percentage of the blame. If he doesn't accept that his own actions (or inactions) can have consequences down the road, i.e, take responsibility for his own mistakes, then how can he grow and mature as a person? And I'm not saying he deserves a lion's-share of the blame. In fact, I don't think it's even about percentages. It's just about the actions. Dumbledore takes the most blame, and probably justly so as his actions had the most consequences. He didn't give Harry enough information, falsely believing he was somehow protecting Harry. Then he assigned a teacher who had a terrible relationship with Harry to teach him a skill that requires complete trust between the parties (who are, after all, potentially privy to each other's darkest secrets). Snape, who actually acted slightly better toward Harry during Occlumency than he normally does in Potions (he actually gave Harry grudging praise at one point during Occlumency, perhaps the first he has ever delivered to Harry), still only manages to improve his behavior *slightly.* And that wasn't enough, not when so much was at stake. Snape didn't suck it up for the cause like he should have, and put all his personal feelings aside, which was his mistake. As for Harry, his mistake wasn't doubting whether the Occlumency was working, or doubting whether it was really that dangerous to have such contact with LV (it helped him save Arthur Weasley after all). He had reason for doubting both (though he can't come back later and claim he wasn't TOLD how important Occlumency was, because he was told). He just wasn't shown in any meaningful way what the consequences were (back to Dumbledore not sharing enough information). Harry's biggest mistake--besides believing himself invincible in that teenager sense that is impossible to eradicate until maturity kicks in--was the same as Dumbledore's. He didn't share information. Even though he was told how important the lessons were, he didn't tell Snape or Dumbledore that it didn't seem to be working, or that his visions were getting stronger, or that he had an increasingly uncontrollable urge to see what was behind that door. Now, granted, Harry said some things to Ron and Hermoine, and granted Snape and Dumbledore weren't exactly approachable for different reasons, but Harry knew he was wrong to keep pursuing the visions. He THOUGHT so to himself. But he also kept it to himself. And he even resorted to lying to everyone about whether he was practicing Occlumency to stay a course he knew was wrong. But this is all about Harry maturing and reaching his potential. If he is to do that, then he must look back at where *he* went wrong and accept his mistakes (as Dumbledore accepts his own mistakes), and even assign himself more blame than is perhaps necessary (as Dumbledore did himself). That's part of maturing. (Oh, and whether Snape does the same--doubtful--is beside the point, because this is about Harry growing up and fulfilling his potential as a person, not Snape--who likely never will.) So I for one hope in HBP to see Harry accept some blame for the Occlumency debacle, and not just a tiny percentage of it (i.e, saying "Well, I made mistakes, but the ones DD and Snape made were so much worse that mine hardly count.") In the end it is about accepting responsibility for your own actions, and leaving others to accept or not accept their own culpability. That is what will prove Harry's character, to himself and to us. Julie From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun Jun 5 19:34:04 2005 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:34:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Pranks, Bullies, Nerds, School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130117 > bboyminn: > To state the obvious, the more blame Snape holds, the less falls on > Sirius, and conversely, the less blame that falls on Snape, the more > blame falls on Sirius. But exactly how much fall where, we don't know. Eloise: I'm glad you said that because it defines exactly where we disagree. It's not obvious. See, I don't see blame in this sort of situation like a cake, where you can share it out so that the more one has, the less the other has. This is the kind of argument that tries to lessen the blame placed on a man who rapes a woman based on the fact that she should have known not to dress so provocatively or suggests that a battered wife is to blame for her own misfortunes by virtue of not leaving her husband. Crimes passionelles possibly aside, I personally don't think it has much validity. In other words, if we were to make a visual representation of the blame, a pie chart would be inappropriate. Instead, a bar chart, showing Sirius' blame at 100% and Snape's at whatever percentage we thought his foolishness merited would be better. As Alla pointed out, it is Snape's vulnerability to the suggestion that he should follow Lupin that leads him to fall for the trick. Sirius exploits that weakness, which IMHO makes what he did *worse*, not better. bboyminn: > I would agree perhaps that Sirius was surely malicious in his intent, > but he may have informed Snape in a way, as illustrated by my sample > scenarios, in which he wasn't or at least tried not to be malicious in > his actions. There is a difference. Eloise: I'm afraid you've lost me there. bboyminn: However, that difference in no way > excuses Sirius, and in no way makes him blameless. In all cases, for > his intent, Sirius will alway share the blame. But again, without the > details, we can't determine what degree of blame falls where. > > I can confidently say that all parties share blame, but the real > question is how much? Eloise; As you say, Snape is responsible for his own actions. He may have been mind-bogglingly stupid for falling for the trick, but a trick, and a nasty one, is what it was. It was conceived (pace Pippin) solely by Sirius and the *blame* for it is his and his alone. The fact that he exploited Snape's weakness does not transfer blame from him. Snape couldn't have fallen for it if Sirius hadn't set it up. bboyminn: > I always found it very odd, when the jocks are picking on the nerds, > there never seems to be a teacher around, but the minute a nerd > retaliates and defends himself, the teacher seem to come flying out of > the woodwork. Highschool has to be the strangest most disfunctional > yet supported and encouraged social structure on earth. Eloise: It's the nature of the beast; it doesn't just happen in high school. As a parent I observe that nine times out of ten it's the victim who draws attention to themselves by their retaliation and ends up being reprimanded, the original perpetrator having done whatever it was out of sight of any adult. ~Eloise From editor at texas.net Sun Jun 5 19:32:01 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:32:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) References: Message-ID: <003101c56a05$4023dcc0$f058aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130118 This thread is rapidly getting to the "agree to disagree" point, but let me answer some things. It's in sections, and my use of capitals is not meant to shout, but to stand out, because formatting options are limited. Alla: Voldie is ALWAYS in Harry's head and he is aware of it. What he had NOT been explained is what CHANGED, why despite the fact that he saved Arthur with that connection, he cannot do that anymore. I can perfectly see that in Harry's mind for example to continue keep the connection would be the greater good and nobody told him why it won't be. Amanda: Section I. SNAPE TOLD HIM WHY I categorically disagree. How things had changed had been explained to Harry in detail. Snape was being unusually forthcoming in the conversation and spoke quite clearly. I don't want to type the whole thing, so I am going to type salient Snape phrases. They are embedded in a conversation, and some of you may feel that the context, rather than the content of what Snape says, drove Harry's comprehension. I maintain, however, that the repetition alone should have carried the point. 1. 530, OoP "Snape continued to survey him through narrowed eyes for a moment, then said, "Now, Occlumency. As I told you back in your dear godfather's kitchen, this branch of magic seals the mind against magical intrusion and influence." (I personally got it at this point and considered that Harry's immediate question of "why does Dumbledore think I need it" was to pump Snape for information; I never thought Harry could possibly not understand at that point.) 2. 531, OoP ...(Snape is speaking) "Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection." Whatever Snape said, Legilimency sounded like mind reading to Harry and he did not like the sound of it at all. "So he could know what we're thinking right now? Sir?" Here, Harry has grasped the gist. With that question, he understands that the channel works both ways. 3. 531, OoP "Well, then, why do I have to learn Occlumency?" Snape eyed Harry, tracing his mouth with one long, thin finger as he did so. "The usual rules do not seem to apply with you, Potter. The curse that failed to kill you seems to have forged some kind of connection between you and the Dark Lord. The evidence suggests that at times, when your mind is most relaxed and vulnerable--when you are asleep, for instance--you are sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and emotions. The headmaster thinks this inadvisable to continue. He wishes me to teach you how to close your mind to the Dark Lord." At this point, Snape has clearly explained the existence of the connection and why Harry is not protected at Hogwarts the way anyone else would be. Now, this is the part most of you cite as key: Harry asking why stop it, if it's been useful. 4. 531-532, OoP Snape stared at Harry for a few moments, still tracing his mouth with his finger. When he spoke, it was slowly and deliberately, as though he weighed every word. "It appears that the Dark Lord has been unaware of the connection between you and himself until very recently. Up till now it seems that you have been experiencing his emotions and sharing his thoughts without his being any the wiser. However, the vision you had shortly before Christmas--" .... "represented such a powerful incursion upon the Dark Lord's thoughts---" Harry interrupted Snape twice in this particular exchange. Snape is clearly tense in this scene. He is speaking in a manner unusual enough for Harry to notice and mark it. Slowly and deliberately. He is being careful what he reveals to Harry. I am betting there's a reason. My theory is that the reason they know Voldemort is aware, is that Voldemort said something in Snape's hearing, and to reveal details of how they know could risk Snape's mission and/or life. Snape is, I believe, saying all he can. 5. 532-533, OoP "You seem to have visited the snake's mind because that was where the Dark Lord was at that particular moment," snarled Snape. "He was possessing the snake at the time and so you dreamed you were inside it too...." "And Vol--he--realized I was there?" "It seems so," said Snape coolly. "How do you know?" said Harry urgently. "Is this just Professor Dumbledore guessing, or -- ?" .... "It is enough that we know," said Snape repressively. This again sounds to me as if there is an edge Snape is walking, in what Harry needs to be told, and what he can safely be told. Given Snape's general impatience with Harry, that he spent so long explaining amazed me while I was reading it. 5 continued: (Snape speaking) "The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return --" "And he might try and make me do things?" asked Harry. "Sir?" he added hurriedly. "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. "Which brings us back to Occlumency. The messages I think should have come across loud and clear were said in so many words: --You need to learn to close your mind against external influences (in quotes 1, 3) --There is an established connection between you and Voldemort (quote 3, as if Harry didn't already know this from scar prickles and such throughout earlier books) --You need this because Voldemort has become aware of the connection between you (quotes 4, 5) --You need this because he might try to influence your thoughts or behavior (quote 5) The only thing not said: --You need this because Voldemort can spy on us through you (touched on but not said specifically, in quote 2). I maintain that this last, given all the rest, is not a tremendous reach to achieve. I have tutored. You repeat things in different ways until the student gets it. And it really looks to me like Snape gave it a good shot to explain, as much as he could. But at that point, I think Snape believed Harry got it--because as I stated in my huge Occlumency analysis, Harry *lied* to Snape *and* Hermione, and Ron, repeatedly about Harry's efforts towards Occlumency, his dreams, and his understanding. How, if Harry never tried to communicate a lack of understanding to anyone, could anyone know they needed to explain it *again.* My bottom line: Harry did not *want* to succeed, and I cannot grant that lack of understanding was part of that reason. I will give you that by that time, Voldemort may have been in the driver's seat, and will not blame Harry quite as much as I sound like. Section II. VOLDEMORT WAS A POTENTIAL PARTICIPANT IN THE CONVERSATION I believe much of the Snape characterization we see in this scene is misinterpreted. Harry believes so fully that Snape's hatred of him is a driving force, he sees all Snape reactions in terms of it. I believe that there may well be other reasons--such as Snape being tense, or Snape deciding what can safely be told to Harry in the context of the broader effort and their knowledge of how much Voldemort is likely to "hear" from Harry's mind. The "coolly" and "cool and unconcerned" were flags to me, because they happened so rapidly after reactions Harry sees as fury (i.e., immediately after Snape "snarls" a response). I think it's likely that Snape is trying very hard *not* to have emotion attached to these sessions with Harry at all--because he wants to be able to hide them from Voldemort later. I believe Snape is mastering rather a lot of tension at personal danger and threat to the overall effort; not only in this scene, but in all the lessons. I believe Harry is shortsightedly interpreting all of it in as being very personal and directed at him. For Harry--and for a lot of the posters who read this section--Snape's reactions are all about Harry. I don't think this is the case. I think there are three parties to the conversation--Snape, Harry, and Voldemort--and that Snape realizes this and Harry will not. Snape's reactions and "coolness" are attempts to carry out this Occlumency task while not endangering his other task for the Order. However, Harry continues to treat this as some kind of duel; he is satisifed when a question unnerves Snape. He expects (and does not get) a personal reaction when he breaks into Snape's memories later. OMG, I'm combining. A last note, from Dolies' post: ..."The important thing is that THE DARK LORD IS NOW AWARE THAT YOU ARE GAINING ACCESS TO HIS THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS. HE HAS ALSO DEDUCED THAT THE PROCESS IS LIKELY TO WORK IN REVERSE; THAT IS TO SAY, HE HAS REALIZED THAT HE MIGHT BE ABLE TO ACCESS YOUR THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS IN RETURN -" "AND HE MIGHT TRY AND MAKE ME DO THINGS?" asked Harry.... Alla: Let's finish this quote, shall we? ;) "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. "Which brings us back to Occlumency" - OOP, p.333, paperback. Nope, does not sound to me as stressing importance of the lessons at all. If Snape sounded unconcerned, why exactly should Harry be more concerned than him? Amanda: Because this conversation has the potential to include Voldemort, as Snape knows, Harry should know, and Snape is in the process of telling him in case he *doesn't* know. As I said above, I think Snape's coolness is deliberate and is an action to protect his other task. Look at the schizophrenic way Snape (according to Harry's interpretation) is blipping from anger to coolness to anger, etc. This is Snape, agitated, and doing his best to control it, so that it will have no great emotional tags to it and he will be able to hide it from Voldemort. This ties in to the reason I believe Snape never ate at the Order headquarters, nor stayed long. And, incidentally, another reason he's so nasty to Harry et al. (not that I think it's a great effort for him to be nasty). I think he needs to minimize any memories that would be difficult to explain to Voldemort, and I think he's been keeping his "memories" clean for years in preparation for this current task. Section IIII. YES, HARRY SHOULD TRUST SNAPE AT LEAST THIS FAR Combining again, ye gods. Alla: Nope, Harry was not RIGHT not to trust Snape, but he was justified in not trusting Snape, IMO. Snape gave him no reasons to trust him during these five years. Remember ? "Mr. Potter, our new celebrity" Amanda: Remember Snape breaking Quirrell's curse to save Harry, and refereeing the Quidditch game afterward to prevent something similar, both of which Harry was told about? [and neither of which he ever acknowledged in any way to Snape, by the way.] Alla: Remember than at the end of the POA they tried to tell Snape the TRUTH about what happened. What did they get in response? Oh, yes. The children were confunded. Amanda: An alternate interpretation has been that Snape was letting them off by saying this--otherwise he would have been justified in asking for their expulsion following their attack on him in the Shack. Etc. I'm tired. But I can tell you one thing that is true, a point I made in my Occlumency post. Snape has done a lot of things--been nasty, vindictive, rude, mean, etc. But he has *never* lied to Harry. Ever. Snape's methods suck--but his actions have been consistently protective. Harry doesn't need to like Snape to work with him, and has more than enough reason to trust him far enough to do that work--if he had let himself. Section IV. HARRY UNDERSTANDS SNAPE'S AUTHORITY Oh, one more point to Phoenixgod: here is the exchange wherein Harry accepts Snape's authority in Occlumency [p. 530, OoP]: "This may not be an ordinary class, Potter," said Snape, his eyes narrowed malevolently, "but I am still your teacher and you will therefore call me 'sir' or 'Professor' at all times" "Yes...sir," said Harry. Section V. DUMBLEDORE WAS NOT REMISS IN ASSIGNING SNAPE I think a lot of you are seeing this incorrectly. I think Snape was a very dangerous, and reluctantly settled upon, alternative. Dumbledore would have preferred to teach Harry. He thought it too risky, and he was right--because Voldemort *was* coiled in the back of Harry's mind. This is evidenced by what happened the two times Dumbledore *did* meet Harry's eyes. I cannot fault Dumbledore for making a correct assumption and doing the best he could to work around it (i.e., assigning the next best person skilled at Occlumency to teach Harry). That he considered benefits to Harry learning this outweighed the risks to Snape and Snape's task, staggered me. ~Amanda From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Jun 5 20:13:25 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 20:13:25 -0000 Subject: Time frame of OOTP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130119 I read order of the phoenix in about six hours. I would imagine that most everyone on this list and probably read the story in a pretty short period of time as well. I think because of that a lot of us are forgetting just how long a period of time the book covers. One year. Have you ever been ignored for a year? Have you ever been left out of something that involved you for a year? Have you had a person you hated violate your thoughts and your personal space for months at a time? Have you had a person in a authority make it their personal mission to get you fired or expelled? Have you have pratically your only outlet taken away from you? Have you even been thought of as a liar by all of your peers and society? Have you ever had the same dream for a year? A year is a long time. For Harry, I think it must have been forever. Think about that when your letting Dumbledore off the hook for his neglect, when your writing about how Snape's lessons in mind violation was doing the best he could, when Harry rushed to his grandfathers aid, thankful that he finally could at least *do* something instead of sit like a mushroom. Like he had for a year. A year can be a very long time. Phoenixgod2000, whose been thinking a lot about time lately because his birthday was yesterday.(Are they supposed to be this depressing when you aren't even thirty?) From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 5 19:27:31 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:27:31 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130120 "festuco" wrote: > Well, Harry did not do anything to > find out more about how occlumency > works now, did he? Hermione did, > and she told Ron to check up on > Harry because he would be weaker > after lessons. It didn't take much scholarly research on Hermione's part to figure out that Harry was vulnerable, after the lesson to "strengthen" him he looked like death warmed over and said he felt terrible and weak. It doesn't sound to me that Hermione knows much about Occlumency, it sounds to me like she's guessing and trying to cheer Harry up. This is from book 5: 'Maybe it's a bit like an illness,' said Hermione, looking concerned when Harry confided in her and Ron. 'A fever or something. It has to get worse before it gets better.' 'The lessons with Snape are making it worse,' said Harry flatly. > As for the distrusting: he had > no reason for that at all. No reason?! If I make no secret of hating your guts with an almost insane intensity and then say I'm going to teach you something to make you stronger would you believe me, even if my first lesson made you sick and weak? Eggplant From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 5 21:15:13 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:15:13 -0000 Subject: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) In-Reply-To: <003101c56a05$4023dcc0$f058aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: Alla: > Nope, does not sound to me as stressing importance of the lessons at all. If Snape sounded unconcerned, why exactly should Harry be more concerned than him? > > Amanda: > > Because this conversation has the potential to include Voldemort, as Snape knows, Harry should know, and Snape is in the process of telling him in case he *doesn't* know. As I said above, I think Snape's coolness is deliberate and is an action to protect his other task. Pippin: It isn't only Snape who has to hide the conversation from Voldemort. Full disclosure: it's been a very long time since I played DandD, but I checked with my gamer son, and he confirms that it's still considered a very bad idea to brainstorm about enemy strategy when the DungeonMaster is listening in. You don't, you *really don't*, want to give him ideas. As they used to say in WWII, "Loose lips sink ships." It isn't only Snape whose mind is permeable to Voldemort, it's Harry's. The Dark Lord can't directly listen in on the lessons through the mind-link, (if he could, he'd be making Harry do things already) but there's the possibility that he can pick up on Harry's memories of them later, especially if Harry is dwelling on them as he falls asleep. One of Voldemort's great weaknesses is his tendency to overlook the obvious. If by chance he hasn't thought of all the ways he could use the mindlink to make Harry do something, why give him the idea? The last thing Dumbledore and Snape want is to get DADA prodigy Harry to do Voldemort's thinking for him. It was essential that Harry learn to block his mind without knowing in detail why he had to do it. I think Harry would have had a hard time accepting that, even from Dumbledore or Lupin. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 5 21:51:28 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:51:28 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130122 > SSSusan: > I know we'll never agree on this, so I shouldn't even try, but.... ;-) > > You see that scene as Lupin hiding BEHIND Neville in order to > embarrass Snape. I see it as Lupin helping Neville STEP UP to take > on Snape and return a bit of the humiliation Snape's forced him to > take over the years. While I think Lupin has some concerns where > cowardice is involved, this scene never struck me as cowardly at all. > Pippin: See, when Lupin wanted to help Harry to step up to the dementors, he didn't have Harry use riddikulus, because that would only have helped Harry cope with the boggart. It wouldn't have been any use against a real dementor at all. Harry had to learn to take the worst a dementor could throw at him and still keep his happy thought in mind. So, I don't think helping Neville cope with his fear of Snape was Lupin's priority. It was about embarrassing Snape, and that wasn't likely to help Neville -- indeed it didn't, for we soon learn that Snape was bullying Neville worse than ever. Pippin From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 5 22:50:11 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 22:50:11 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130123 I know my entry is a little late (I've been away) but I couldn't resist joining in. So here goes: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore, but he won't be the only one. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) A descendant of Godric Gryffinor, who is now dead. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Her magic once saved Petunia's life/family. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The old Lion Guy, who may be an old friend of Dumbledore's. But I reckon Snape will eventually take over the job (With dire consequences) as 'OLG' will be called away doing whatever it was that stopped him being DADA teacher last year. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one, but he will get closer to Ginny as they are finally playing quidditch together. He'll also get punched by whoever it is that is going out with Ginny at the time. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones (Girl Power!! I would say that Hermione should go for the job as a long term plan ) Also, she's intelligent and fair. A perfect leader in these difficult times. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A penseive. Dull answer, I know. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes! 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No way! 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He'll fail one of them (most likely Astronomy). So will Ron. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Ron will become quidditch captain. 2. Hermione gets top marks in all but one OWL and can't stop going on about how she is unhappy with her performance. This will not please Ron. At all. 3. Ron will start dating a Hufflepuff/Ravenclaw girl. She will eventually dump him because of Hermione. This time, he'll finally understand. 4. We'll find out what Snape was up to in the last book, and a little more about what happened to make him change sides. 5. Theodore Nott will play a part in the main story. And Draco Malfoy won't like it, whatever it is. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Jun 5 23:02:12 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:02:12 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130124 > > Pippin: > See, when Lupin wanted to help Harry to step up to the dementors, he > didn't have Harry use riddikulus, because that would only have helped > Harry cope with the boggart. It wouldn't have been any use against a > real dementor at all. Harry had to learn to take the worst a dementor > could throw at him and still keep his happy thought in mind. > > So, I don't think helping Neville cope with his fear of Snape was > Lupin's priority. It was about embarrassing Snape, and that wasn't > likely to help Neville -- indeed it didn't, for we soon learn that > Snape was bullying Neville worse than ever. you use different methods with different students, especially when they are dealing with different problems. Just because he wasn't helping Neville with the same method he used to help Harry doesn't mean he wasn't trying to help neville. phoenixgod2000 From kgpopp at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 23:38:39 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:38:39 -0000 Subject: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "juli17ptf" wrote: > Again, I think it is not only incorrect but it would be damaging to > assign Harry only a *tiny* percentage of the blame. If he doesn't > accept that his own actions (or inactions) can have consequences > down the road, i.e, take responsibility for his own mistakes, then > how can he grow and mature as a person? Kristen: Here, Here! Great post! It has been really fun to watch the 2 sides debate this topic. I finally had to show my support for Julie's post. (I fall into they are both to blame camp myself.) > And I'm not saying he deserves a lion's-share of the blame. In > fact, I don't think it's even about percentages. It's just about > the actions. Dumbledore takes the most blame, and probably justly > so as his actions had the most consequences. He didn't give Harry > enough information, falsely believing he was somehow protecting > Harry. Kristen again - I agree DD made a mistake but what I love is that he can admit it and I expect he will learn from it. > Snape, who actually acted slightly better toward Harry during > Occlumency than he normally does in Potions (he actually gave Harry > grudging praise at one point during Occlumency, perhaps the first > he has ever delivered to Harry), still only manages to improve his > behavior *slightly.* And that wasn't enough, not when so much was > at stake. Snape didn't suck it up for the cause like he should > have, and put all his personal feelings aside, which was his > mistake. Kristen again. You make a good point about Snape, but this is another place I feel Harry made a mistake. While it made for a great story and interesting reading I think Harry was way out of line to take a dip in the pensive s to see Snape's memories. Granted it does not really fair that Snape gets to hide some of his memories in a pensive while Harry's memories are available for Snape to probe. but... unfortunately life is not often fair. > As for Harry, his mistake wasn't doubting whether the Occlumency > was working, or doubting whether it was really that dangerous to > have such contact with LV (it helped him save Arthur Weasley after > all). He had reason for doubting both (though he can't come back > later and claim he wasn't TOLD how important Occlumency was, > because he was told). He just wasn't shown in any meaningful way > what the consequences were (back to Dumbledore not sharing enough > information). > Harry's biggest mistake--besides believing himself invincible in > that teenager sense that is impossible to eradicate until maturity > kicks in--was the same as Dumbledore's. He didn't share > information. Even though he was told how important the lessons > were, he didn't tell Snape or Dumbledore that it didn't seem to be > working, or that his visions were getting stronger, or that he had > an increasingly uncontrollable urge to see what was behind that > door. > > Now, granted, Harry said some things to Ron and Hermoine, and > granted Snape and Dumbledore weren't exactly approachable for > different reasons, but Harry knew he was wrong to keep pursuing the > visions. He THOUGHT so to himself. But he also kept it to himself. > And he even resorted to lying to everyone about whether he was > practicing Occlumency to stay a course he knew was wrong. Kristen: I really like the point you make about Harry's own behavior and his mistake being the same as DD. Note: I think the canons are clear that Harry knew he was doing something that was wrong or at least risky and he continued out of curiosity. Now I'm sure that some would argue he wouldn't have been curious if DD had told him more information While we can debate forever what more DD could/should have told Harry the key point to me is that Harry knew it was wrong to keep having the dreams because he lied to his friends and felt guilty. Again this doesn't mean I don't hold DD also accountable. > But this is all about Harry maturing and reaching his potential. If > he is to do that, then he must look back at where *he* went wrong > and accept his mistakes (as Dumbledore accepts his own mistakes), > and even assign himself more blame than is perhaps necessary (as > Dumbledore did himself). That's part of maturing. (Oh, and whether > Snape does the same--doubtful--is beside the point, because this is > about Harry growing up and fulfilling his potential as a person, > not Snape--who likely never will.) > > So I for one hope in HBP to see Harry accept some blame for the > Occlumency debacle, and not just a tiny percentage of it (i.e, > saying "Well, I made mistakes, but the ones DD and Snape made were > so much worse that mine hardly count.") In the end it is about > accepting responsibility for your own actions, and leaving others > to accept or not accept their own culpability. That is what will > prove Harry's character, to himself and to us. > > Julie Kristen again great post From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jun 5 23:52:21 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17ptf) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:52:21 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130126 Eggplant wrote: > > It doesn't sound to me that Hermione knows much about Occlumency, it > sounds to me like she's guessing and trying to cheer Harry up. This is > from book 5: > > 'Maybe it's a bit like an illness,' said Hermione, looking > concerned when Harry confided in her and Ron. 'A fever or > something. It has to get worse before it gets better.' > 'The lessons with Snape are making it worse,' said Harry flatly. Julie says: You bring up a good point. I was thinking about this last night. If this weakness is a normal byproduct of the Occlumency lessons, then certainly Snape or Dumbledore should have warned Harry it would happen. But the question is, does a student in training always feel that weakness after lessons? Remember, there is a potentially big difference during Harry's lessons than during usual Occlumency lessons. Harry is *already* linked to another mind. If we use Snape as a student example, as far as we know, when DD taught Snape Occulmency he was the only one in Snape's mind at the moment. Snape may have felt fine after the lessons, as might have legions of other students. I think Hermoine may be right in her sickness analogy. Up until the lessons Voldemort was lazily strolling his way through Harry's mind (to use a favorite adverb of JKR's!). But once Harry started learning Occlumency and Voldemort felt resistance, Voldemort came instantly to attention. He quit goofing around and put his all into controlling Harry's mind. Harry only knew the Occlumency wasn't working, figured Snape was behind it, and quit trying. Which only gave the newly determined Voldemort easier access. Again it all depends on how Occlumency lessons affect students normally, and Harry is decidedly NOT normal in this case. So, either Snape fell down on the job by not warning Harry about the after- effects, or Harry unwittingly sabotaged the Occlumency lessons by not telling Snape (or Dumbledore) that he was getting weaker, not stronger. (And, yeah, yeah, I know Harry didn't trust Snape, with some good reason due to their past relationship, which is where Dumbledore made his mistake--and that was not in expecting *Snape* to get over his feelings as much as in expecting *Harry* to get over his feelings, i.e., not recognizing Harry's inablity to put the complete trust required for Occlumency in a teacher who's engendered only negative feelings in him over the past four plus years.) Anyway, I hope we do see Occlumency again and learn more about it, so we can better judge exactly how it is taught under more normal circumstances, and between a student and teacher who don't have so much baggage with each other. It will make it easier to more accurately judge just where it all went wrong in OotP. Julie From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 5 23:56:45 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 16:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco & Harry (was: Sirius and Prank again? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050605235645.64112.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130127 >> Magda: >> Dumbledore's comment to Harry about Snape-James being like >> Harry-Draco would also take on new meaning as I really believe >> that as much as he goes after Harry so much Draco very much wants >> to be Harry's friend (as much as Draco understands the word). > > > SSSusan: > I know this wasn't the main point of your post, Magda, but it > intrigues me. I notice you used the *present* tense here. Is that > what you think? That Draco still WANTS to be Harry's friend, or > that at one time he truly WANTED to be his friend? If the former, > I would love to hear more. Magda again: Well, as I said above, Draco's idea of friendship probably isn't the same as Ron's or Harry's; for one thing, it would probably involve sitting around listening to a LOT of talk about "my father says" and hearing about what Draco got for Christmas. But yes, I do think that Draco would still like to "be friends with" Harry if he could figure out a way to do it. In Draco's mind it would require Harry coming to him apologetically and Draco grandly forgiving Harry his foolishness over the past five years. I think that a lot of Draco's animosity to the people that Harry cherishes - Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, Dumbledore - is based on Draco's desire to supplant them. (And yes I know he's a prejudiced little git; I'm not saying that ALL of his animosity derives from his feelings about Harry, only that as much as it's personal for him as opposed to the stuff his parents' have been feeding him for years.) All of this is up to the end of OOTP, of course. There definitely does seem to be a change in Draco's attitude during the final chapter's confrontation so it could be that Draco's attitude has changed. We'll know in six weeks. To reach back to James/Sirius/Snape: I wondered if the Marauders' view that Snape followed them around to get them in trouble (at least in the first few years) is accurate because I was re-reading PS/SS and it occurs to me that before Hermione becomes friends with Ron and Harry, what she does could be described as following them around trying to get them in trouble. When of course she's trying to make friends with them, which is why Ron's comment that no one likes her makes her hide in the bathroom and cry. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Jun 6 00:18:40 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:18:40 -0000 Subject: Snape/McGonagall/Neville (was: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130128 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "demetra1225" wrote: > > > Demetra: > But does she really see his actions as abuse of her Gryffindors? > > I've pondered the question of what the other teachers think of Snape > and his methods for a while. I haven't found any evidence in the > books to indicate to me that the other teachers have issues with > Snape as a teacher. Again, look at McGonagall's comments about > Trelawney and Lockhart, her dislike of them as teachers is obvious. > Furthermore, look at all of the teacher's comments about and > treatment of Umbridge. I think that if the other teachers, > especially McGonagall, had issues with Snape we would have seen > clearer evidence by now. > As for the question of *why* the other teachers seem to be OK with > him ? I'm not sure, but I suspect that this may have to do with > cultural differences in what methods are OK when dealing with a > difficult and potentially dangerous subject matter. A couple of RL > analogies come to mind. > > I was a nurse on a surgical unit in a University Medical Center for > a number of years. This means I witnessed many "teaching moments" > between medical students and/or residents and attending surgeons. > Sadistic is almost a mild word to describe how the surgeons > sometimes verbally assailed the residents. They would latch on to > the tiniest weakness and proceed to flail the students and > residents. Mind you, this behavior was totally accepted and > defended as necessary to training the doctor so that they could > think quickly, because in medicine you don't always have the time to > go to the library and look something up. It always seemed to me > that the attending surgeons particularly delighted in their sadistic > behavior ? they wore it like a badge of honor. And quite frankly no > one, including those who had been raked over the coals, ever > complained. > Of course, playing devils advocate with myself, one problem I see > with this analogy, is that these residents are young men and women > in their early 20's (barring the occasional Doogie Howser), not 11 > to 17 year olds like the kids at Hogwarts. > > The other analogy probably fits better with the age range. Think > about the young girls involved in competitive gymnastics. Now, this > is an area I have no special knowledge of, except for occasionally > watching during the Olympics. But, I do recall seeing a segment on > TV about some gymnastics coaches (like Bela Karolyi, etc). They are > very successful in turning out medal winning gymnasts, but the > training methods are extremely harsh. These young girls are pushed > to train past the appropriate point, IMO. Methods include feeding > them little and raging if their weight creeps above 100 lbs. The > girls often suffer from stress fractures and stunted growth. Yet > there is very little criticism of these coaches or their methods > from the gymnastics community. In fact, parents of budding > gymnastics stars pay exorbitant amounts of money to send their > children to be abused in this fashion. > So while *I* find the methods objectionable, those in the industry > apparently don't. > Perhaps there is a similar situation going on at Hogwarts. While > you and I see a problem, in the context of life at Hogwarts, the > other teachers simply don't think there is anything wrong with > Snape's methods. > > Demetra Very good points, Demetra. I wouldn't have any problems with it except that Snape applies his methods in such a drastically uneven manner. Granted, we haven't really seen him with Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs yet, but he certainly has a reputation for not liking Gryffindors and being viciously unfair to them. I could certainly see McGonagall being friends with a harsh and unfair teacher who applied his methods evenly across the houses. I can't see her being friends with someone who is so obviously biased, and particularly has a reputation of being harshly unfair to her own house above all the others. Lupinlore From juli17 at aol.com Mon Jun 6 00:19:03 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17ptf) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:19:03 -0000 Subject: Time frame of OOTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130129 Phoenixgod wrote: > > Think about that when your letting Dumbledore off the hook for his > neglect, when your writing about how Snape's lessons in mind > violation was doing the best he could, when Harry rushed to his > grandfathers aid, thankful that he finally could at least *do* > something instead of sit like a mushroom. Like he had for a year. > > A year can be a very long time. > > Phoenixgod2000, whose been thinking a lot about time lately because > his birthday was yesterday.(Are they supposed to be this depressing > when you aren't even thirty?) Julie says: I really don't think anyone here has been letting Dumbledore off the hook. The argument is more along the lines of how to partition the blame. From your posts I'm guessing you'd assign the "blame" something like Dumbledore--85%, Snape--14%, and Harry 1%. Others would assign different percentages, and still others (myself included) would avoid the percentages because it's not really an accurate way to represent the mistakes made by all three, and, further, it's irrelevant now. I should add that these are mistakes which led to the confrontation at the DoM, which then led to Sirius dying (and Sirius made his own mistake in misjudging Bellatrix's intent and ability). Had any of the four taken different actions, it's possible the confrontation wouldn't have happened and Sirius wouldn't have died. But again, it's pretty much irrelevant, because no one is to blame for Sirius's *death* except Bellatrix. She killed him, nobody else. (Though some will throw in a bit of blame on Voldemort too, and probably rightly so.) I've said it before, but my main reason for wanting Harry to shoulder his share of the blame--i.e., own up to his mistakes that helped set the stage for the DoM tragedy--is for his own sake, so he can recognize where he made mistakes and learn from them. And so he can accept what happened--NOT his fairytale version that "hateful and evil Professor Snape" caused his godfather's death, but the reality that Sirius died needlessly and tragically because of EVIL (the capital letter type of evil) perpetuated by Bellatrix and Voldemort. Because of EVIL that might be perpetuated over and over again on other innocent wizards if Dumbledore and his allies, including Harry (and-yikes-Snape), can't stand up to Voldemort and his cronies and take them down once and for all. When Harry owns up to his mistakes and places the blame for Sirius's death where it truly belongs, then he can move forward, and then he will be on his way to becoming not only a great wizard but a great man as well. (Something Snape, with all his anger and bitterness, is never going to be.) As for Dumbledore's mistakes and how they affected Harry, that's a completely different issue. The trust between them has been breached, and Harry will have to decide how and when--even if--that breach will be healed. (And healed doesn't mean it will ever be exactly the same again). Julie From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Jun 6 00:23:59 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:23:59 -0000 Subject: Changing the title because I'm tired of it, was "Some won't like it". The Sc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130130 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" said: > > > Lupinlore: > Not when the adult is a sadistic moron, you don't.< > > > Betsy Hp: > I don't recall Dumbledore ever being referred to as a sadistic > moron. > > Alla: > > Betsy, I am not 100% sure of course, but I think Lupinlore referred > to Snape as sadistic moron, NOT Dumbledore. :-) > > Chuckle. Yes, indeed, Alla, you have it correctly. Dumbledore, for all his faults, is not a sadistic moron. Snape, on the other hand, certainly qualifies. Lupinlore From PenapartElf at aol.com Mon Jun 6 00:33:37 2005 From: PenapartElf at aol.com (penapart_elf) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:33:37 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: your moderation status at HPfGU Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130131 Greetings and salutations! The List Elves hereby remind those of you who are still moderated that if you wish to participate competently and on a timely basis in the discussion of The!New!Book (aka Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince) from the get-go, you have until July 16th to demonstrate to us your ability to follow our posting rules, which can be read at http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/hbfile.html#2 Please give yourself enough time to earn your release from the moderated status; even those of you who rarely venture out of Lurkdom may wish to end your silence in face of new canon. You are still on moderated status if you have *not* received notification to the contrary and should check with us to be sure if you cannot remember. Or you can go on just reading us from Lurkville. That's fine with us too. So, if you are one of our beloved lurkers, haven't posted in recent months, or are not sure whether you are still a moderated member, to check on your current status please send an email from the email account associated with your membership of our main list to: HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (without the extra space) As always, replies to admins like this one should be sent to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com or to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Feedback , never to the main list. This particular message is being sent to all members on Special Notice as well as the main list. :) Penapart Elf for the HPfGU List Admin Team From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Jun 6 00:50:48 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:50:48 -0000 Subject: HBP: Romance Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130132 S P O I L E R W A R N I N G An excerpt from an interview with Arthur Levine of Scholastic has been posted over on Sugarquill as well as Mugglenet and The Leaky Cauldron. It says: Alas, I was less successful wheedling any information about the new Harry Potter from the book's editor, Arthur Levine. "There's a new character named Maclaggen," he said, and spelled the name. And ...? And nothing. Levine clammed up. Jim Dale had mentioned yesterday that somebody dies. True? "I can neither confirm nor deny." Does Harry have a girlfriend? "I can't say ... He's definitely growing up in all areas of his life." Later, he said he didn't experience this book to be as dark as the last, though the overall arc of the series is that the "world is getting more pernicious (dangerous)." This one, he said, "has more romance in general." And then he and marketing VP Jennifer Pasanen, who was sitting in, started humming "Love is in the air." Well, it's a clue. Interesting, interesting. Lupinlore From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon Jun 6 01:00:34 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 01:00:34 -0000 Subject: Time frame of OOTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130133 > Julie says: > I've said it before, but my main reason for wanting Harry to shoulder > his share of the blame--i.e., own up to his mistakes that helped set > the stage for the DoM tragedy--is for his own sake, so he can > recognize where he made mistakes and learn from them. And so he can > accept what happened--NOT his fairytale version that "hateful and > evil Professor Snape" caused his godfather's death, but the reality > that Sirius died needlessly and tragically because of EVIL (the > capital letter type of evil) perpetuated by Bellatrix and Voldemort. > Because of EVIL that might be perpetuated over and over again on > other innocent wizards if Dumbledore and his allies, including Harry > (and-yikes-Snape), can't stand up to Voldemort and his cronies and > take them down once and for all. The reason why I react so strongly to this arguement is because it is the cornerstone of everything that I hated about OOTP. I'm worried that Rowling verson of Harry 'mastering' his feelings is going to involve abject appologizing to Snape and Dumbledore for ever disobeying their perfect plans and getting Sirius killed and becoming an obedient little soldier for DD. I agree that Harry needs to learn from his mistakes, but by the same token I want to see him put pressure on DD and Snape to learn from theirs. He has a lot to be (legitimately) angry about with the two of them and I want to see that part honored as well. The thing is, I don't think I am going to see that. I think I am going to see a story that is going to end up legitimizing all of the mistakes the Order and DD made with Harry during OOTP and legitimizing the crapy insult filled lessons of Snape. Thus leaving Harry, the wronged party in my opinion, forced to appologize to both of them. (Something Snape, with all his anger and bitterness, is > never going to be.) That we can agree on > As for Dumbledore's mistakes and how they affected Harry, that's a > completely different issue. The trust between them has been breached, > and Harry will have to decide how and when--even if--that breach will > be healed. (And healed doesn't mean it will ever be exactly the same > again). I am worried and hopeful about the Dumbledore/Harry dynamic in HBP. I liked the cover and I like the possibility of one on one training, but I am also worried that Harry is going to forgive DD too quickly and the many problems between them are going to get glossed over without DD doing anything to make up for them. I think Rowling likes DD too much to leave him in the doghouse as he should be based on the previous year and thus will be the recipient of Authorial Whitewashing to make him right and knowledgeable once again. The new book really needs to come out. I really want to recover the faith I lost after OOTP but I am worried that I won't. phoenixgod2000 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 01:17:42 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 01:17:42 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil/Explaning Danger to Harry/Prank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130134 SSSusan: You see that scene as Lupin hiding BEHIND Neville in order to embarrass Snape. I see it as Lupin helping Neville STEP UP to take on Snape and return a bit of the humiliation Snape's forced him to take over the years. While I think Lupin has some concerns where cowardice is involved, this scene never struck me as cowardly at all. Pippin: So, I don't think helping Neville cope with his fear of Snape was Lupin's priority. It was about embarrassing Snape, and that wasn't likely to help Neville -- indeed it didn't, for we soon learn that Snape was bullying Neville worse than ever. Alla: No secret that I am 100% in agreement with Susan, but I want to elaborate a little bit more. Yes, I am positive that Lupin's goal was to help Neville, BUT I don't see the goal of such help as changing Snape's attitude. I don't think that anybody but Snape could do that and I am not very optimistic about it. I think that lupin's goal was to change Neville's attitude for the best, even if for the short period of time. I think he achieves such goal spectacularly. Neville laughes at the subject of his worst fear for the first time. Have you EVER seen Neville laughing at Snape again? "Crack! Snape was back. This time Neville charged forward looking determined. "Riddikulus!" he shouted,and they had a split second's view of Snape in his lacy dress before Neville let outa great "Ha!" of laughter,a nd the boggart exploded, burst into a thousand tiny wisps of smoke and was gone" - PoA, paperback, p.138. I hope he can achieve doing it on more permanent basis in HBP. :-) > Eloise: > As Alla pointed out, it is Snape's vulnerability to the suggestion > that he should follow Lupin that leads him to fall for the trick. > Sirius exploits that weakness, which IMHO makes what he did *worse*, > not better. Alla: Sorry, Eloise I don't remember saying that. In any event even if you understood my remark as such, it does not define my position clearly. :-) IMO, we don't know whether Snape was vulnerable to such suggestion and whether Sirius exploited it or not and even if he did for the reasons unknown to me, I am with Steve, if Snape was not Imperio!d or was not told something like there is a message to him from Lily or something like that, I think he bears part of blame. But again, this is not the gist of my argument. Alla wrote earlier: Nope, Harry was not RIGHT not to trust Snape, but he was justified in not trusting Snape, IMO. Snape gave him no reasons to trust him during these five years. Remember ? "Mr. Potter, our new celebrity" Amanda: Remember Snape breaking Quirrell's curse to save Harry, and refereeing the Quidditch game afterward to prevent something similar, both of which Harry was told about? [and neither of which he ever acknowledged in any way to Snape, by the way.] Alla: OK, I snipped your great post, which I almost entirely disagree with, but today must have been a day of me being exceptionally unclear. :-) In the post which you replied to. I said that Yes, I remember PS/SS, but Snape made a considerable effort to make Harry forget about it, IMO. :-) Besides, yes, indeed Snape did a good deed, but IMO he did exactly what ANY teacher of Hogwarts is supposed to do. I mean, thanks G-d that he is able to remember to do his job at least when Harry is about to get killed. One more thing, Dumbledore also saved Harry's life in PoA when he was falling down from the sky after dementor's attack. Do you think that this action also needs special acknowledgement? Just my opinion, Alla. From Calimora at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 01:17:49 2005 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 01:17:49 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130135 > Anyway, I hope we do see Occlumency again and learn more about it, so > we can better judge exactly how it is taught under more normal > circumstances, and between a student and teacher who don't have so > much baggage with each other. It will make it easier to more > accurately judge just where it all went wrong in OotP. > > Julie Calimora: I do wonder how likely that is. One of the things that always bothered me was how useful Occlumency is and how few people seem to know it. In OotP Dumbledore gives the distinct impression that Snape is the only person avalible who is proficient in the technique, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sence. If Voldemort could pick stuff out of peoples mind's just by looking them in the eye then a Traitor in the Order wouldn't have been such a big deal. Also, can you imagine a Slytherin who came across the technique and its corrilary to not study it? As to an Occulmency instructor not having a lot of baggage with Harry - Strike Dumbledore and probably McGonnagal. ~Calimora (Back from the Dead!) From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 01:38:52 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 01:38:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130136 >>Phoenixgod: >You misunderstand me. I said in my post that you could argue that he was drafted by destiny, but Tonks was saying that Harry should be a good little soldier and blindly do what he was told by his superiors. He certainly wasn't drafted by any earthly army so that arguement doesn't hold up imo. Harry is under no duty to do anything that DD and Snape want that doesn't directly apply to his schooling.< Betsy Hp: I was replying more to Lupinlore's implication that Harry was well out of the fight until mean old Dumbledore pulled him in. But if you're talking an actual draft notice you'll need to point out an actual WW army. IOW, I doubt Lily or James or Sirius or Lupin received any draft papers either. And since Occlumency was an actual lesson under an actual professor and assigned by the actual headmaster of an actual school, Harry was indeed under an obligation to behave like an actual student. >>Betsy Hp: >I don't recall Dumbledore ever being referred to as a sadistic moron.< >"Listen to me Harry," he said urgently, "you must study Occlumency as hard as you can, do you understand me? Do everything Professor Sanpe tells you and practice it particularly every night before sleeping so that you can close your mind to bad dreams -- you will understand why soon enough but you must promise me --" (OotP p.622)< >>Phoenixgod: >Good point. but once again, its all vague threats and dire (but shadowy) warnings. There is no why in his answer.< Betsy Hp: Here's where I go, "Awwww, poor baby Potter having to operate with only vague threats and shadowy warnings. Life is soooo hard for you," with little to no pity since the prophecy Dumbledore has been acting under is pretty much a vague hope and shadowy warnings. Welcome to a semi-realistic battle field, kid. The enemy won't be wearing black hats and he sure as hell ain't sharing his plans with you. I'll also posit that Dumbledore may not have had an exact "why". I don't think he knew exactly how Voldemort would choose to attack Harry, he just had the knowledge that Voldemort had realized there was a mental link. (We don't even know how exactly Dumbledore learned this fact. His cool silver toys? A darn good guess? Intel from Snape?) I think Dumbledore may have been acting under the idea that Voldemort having *any* kind of control over Harry was a bad thing. And he weren't wrong. As Amanda pointed out in her Occlumency post, Voldemort *did* have control over Harry and it did nearly screw things up but good for the Order. Fortunately Snape came through in the crunch and Dumbledore proved, once again, that he thinks damn well on his feet. >>Phoenixgod: >As other people pointed out Harry was specifically belittled and made to feel unimportant by Snape during the lessons. I don't think that impressed on Harry the seriousness of the situation. To him, I think he saw the lessons as onerus make-work, and yet another cross added to his burden.< Betsy Hp: Actually, I thought Snape was strangely *supportive* of Harry throughout the lessons. He didn't do anything with the majorly embarrassing information he culled from Harry's mind. He didn't get upset when Harry invaded his mind, he even *praised* Harry for it. "Well, Potter... that was certainly an improvement...." [...] "I don't remember telling you to use a Sheild Charm... but there is no doubt that it was effective...." (OotP scholastic p.592) And while he demanded Harry treat him with respect (calling him professor or sir, not interrupting) he answered all the questions he could. If Harry did see the lessons as "make-work" it wasn't because of any action of Snape's. I personally think it was Voldemort's work, because frankly, I don't think Harry's usually that stupid. >>Phoenixgod: >As for DD, he had done precious little that year to earn any goodwill for Harry. And I certainly wouldn't put any trust in a man who wouldn't look me in the eye for a year either.< Betsy Hp: *sigh* Okay. If that's how you want to see it, if you want to completely ignore the murderous and animalistic rage that swept through Harry whenever Dumbledore *did* look him in the eye, or the obvious manuvering Dumbledore had to do to keep the Ministry as out of Hogwarts as possible, fine. There's nothing I can say. I suppose we'll have to ignore Dumbledore's defense of Harry keeping him out of Azkaban and in Hogwarts at the beginning of OotP, and Dumbledore's sacrifice of his headmaster position to once again keep Harry in Hogwarts in the middle of OotP too. And yes, if *all* of those factors and incidents are removed, Dumbledore was shockingly lazy and mean. (We'll do best to ignore the many times Dumbledore has saved Harry's life as well. That might just confuse the issue.) >>Phoenixgod: >Remember, while this is a short period of time for a novel, the time span is a year. that is days upon days, weeks upon weeks, and months upon months of being left in the dark, isolated, beset on all sides by enemies both within and without the school. That is a long damn time for Dumbledore to leave Harry twisting in the wind.< Betsy Hp: I can see your point here, Phoenixgod. And it's unfortunate that Dumbledore was *unable* to approach Harry and only Snape had the ability to help Harry. I think Dumbledore hoped that the DA club (the equivalent of a junior Order) would keep Harry occupied and give him a sense of accomplishment. Again, I don't think anyone realized how deeply Voldemort had sunk into Harry's mind. Because I think the biggest frustration for Harry, throughout OotP, was trying to figure out what was in the DoM. And honestly, that wasn't really Harry's bugaboo, it was Voldemort's. >>Phoenixgod: >Of course they [the dreams] also saved someones life and was proving to be Harry's only source of information for an entire year. I wouldn't want to shut that down with what I knew either.< Betsy Hp: So you wouldn't mind the thought that your greatest enemy had total access to your mind? And could make you feel or do things against your will? I would add that the dreams provided Harry with a lot of *false* information. >>Betsy Hp: >After you finish laughing, Lupinlore, I'd love to hear your explanations as to the many times Snape has saved Harry's life...< >>Phoenixgod: >Because Dumbledore is his boss and even Snape isn't going to want to watch a child die if he could stop it.< Betsy Hp: So answer me this, why didn't McGonagall do anything? Or Flitwick? Or Sprout? >>Betsy Hp: >But if that's the case than there's *no way* Harry should ever be allowed *near* the Order. If Harry is so extremely disconnected from his actions then he is far too much a child to take any part in a war. Dumbledore holds some blame, but Harry hold some blame as well. >For Harry to become an adult he must recognize and atone for the mistakes he's made so that he doesn't make them again.< >>Phoenixgod: >Harry doesn't need to *atone* for anything. Atoning implies that Harry has sinned and I don't think he has.< Betsy Hp: Rather than get into a symantics argument I'll reword. Harry needs to learn from and make amends for his mistakes. As Dumbledore has (and is probably still) doing. As Snape has been doing (IMO) for five books. I'm not saying Harry has commited a great and horrible sin for which he must crawl through broken glass. A simple apology to Ron and the others would go a long way, I think. I don't even expect an apology to Snape (though a thank you for saving my life. Again. would be nice). Only then will Harry be able to grow, I think. And maybe he'll do a bit more conferring with others and a little less rushing in. >>Betsy Hp: >Yes, Dumbledore erred, but not *that* badly. (Unless I totally misread the ending of OotP, the Order scored a bit of a victory there.) >>Phoenixgod: >Depends on your definition. If it was a victory then it was a small one compared to the losses and damage done.< Betsy Hp: Okay, I'm going to come across as cold-hearted here, but the only Order loss was Sirius. I like Sirius, and I hate that he died, but he was the weakest Order member, and his personal issues nearly compromised Harry's life. Voldemort *still* doesn't know the whole prophecy and his resurrection has been exposed. Voledomort also lost a very well placed Death Eater (Malfoy) who even if not held in Azkaban for long will not have the same influence over WW affairs he used to have. The loss of Sirius was a strong blow to Harry, and that is probably the worst thing that happened. But Harry, though important of course, is not, at this time, the most important member of the Order. That would be Dumbledore, and he is still functioning. >>Betsy Hp: >I thought you saw Dumbledore as a hopeless idiot and cold-hearted bastard from SS/PS on? >So if you think Dumbledore was an idiot in OotP, wouldn't that be an example of JKR's consistency?< >>Phoenixgod: >That man disappeared in OOTP and he was replaced by someone I didn't recognize and certainly didn't like. Where did the man go who told Harry at the end of the previous year that he had shouldered adult burdens and bore them well? Why couldn't he have trusted Harry one more time like he had so many other times before when even he himself had been caught off guard?< Betsy Hp: Dumbledore, IMO, did not change a bit in OotP. He kept a secret he told Harry he was going to keep in PS/SS. He allowed Harry to get into his schoolboy adventures (the battle against Umbridge) and at the same time did his best to keep Harry safe. The one who changed, again IMO, was Harry. Harry had always seen Dumbledore as almost god- like in his powers and knowledge. Now that Harry is growing up he's starting to realize that the all-powerful adults around him are merely human. Betsy Hp From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 6 01:43:38 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 01:43:38 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Boggarts (was Re: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130137 Snipping a conversation between SSSusan and Pippin: > > SSSusan: > > I know we'll never agree on this, so I shouldn't even try, but.... > ;-) > > > > You see that scene as Lupin hiding BEHIND Neville in order to > > embarrass Snape. I see it as Lupin helping Neville STEP UP to take > > on Snape and return a bit of the humiliation Snape's forced him to > > take over the years. While I think Lupin has some concerns where > > cowardice is involved, this scene never struck me as cowardly at > all. Potioncat: Keep in mind, Neville identifies Snape as his biggest fear. The way you banish a Boggart which has assumed your strongest fear, is to turn it into something funny so that you can laugh at it. A long time ago I issued a challenge: how could Lupin have helped Neville, without making the Snape!Boggart funny. No one came up with a better solution. Anything that would have generated laughter, would have embarrassed Snape. Of couse, Lupin could have skipped Neville, but once he asked him, what was he to do? From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 02:18:16 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 02:18:16 -0000 Subject: Saving Harry (was:Re: Lupin is Ever So Evil/Explaning Danger to Harry/Prank) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130138 >>Amanda: >Remember Snape breaking Quirrell's curse to save Harry, and refereeing the Quidditch game afterward to prevent something similar, both of which Harry was told about? [and neither of which he ever acknowledged in any way to Snape, by the way.]< >>Alla: >Besides, yes, indeed Snape did a good deed, but IMO he did exactly what ANY teacher of Hogwarts is supposed to do.< >I mean, thanks G-d that he is able to remember to do his job at least when Harry is about to get killed.< Betsy Hp: What's your view of Professor McGonagall and Madam Hooch then I wonder? Because they did jack diddly squat. Hagrid did nothing either. I doubt that they're *all* ESE, but the fact that they took no action suggests that Snape was using either special talents or was much quicker witted than the rest of the staff. It also suggests that he saved Harry for something more than a job requirement. >>Alla: >One more thing, Dumbledore also saved Harry's life in PoA when he was falling down from the sky after dementor's attack. >Do you think that this action also needs special acknowledgement?< Betsy Hp: Well, yeah. Generally, if someone saves my life, I express some form of gratitude. It's how my mama raised me. :P Betsy Hp From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 02:32:01 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 02:32:01 -0000 Subject: Saving Harry (was:Re: Lupin is Ever So Evil/Explaning Danger to Harry/Prank) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130139 > >>Alla: > > >Besides, yes, indeed Snape did a good deed, but IMO he did exactly > what ANY teacher of Hogwarts is supposed to do.< > >I mean, thanks G-d that he is able to remember to do his job at > least when Harry is about to get killed.< Betsy Hp: What's your view of Professor McGonagall and Madam Hooch then I wonder? Because they did jack diddly squat. Hagrid did nothing either. I doubt that they're *all* ESE, but the fact that they took no action suggests that Snape was using either special talents or was much quicker witted than the rest of the staff. It also suggests that he saved Harry for something more than a job requirement. Alla: I am not sure why is it so surprising that former DE can recognise Dark curse faster than anybody else in the facility. Nobody else seemed to understand what happened, especially Hagrid "dunno what Hary thinks he is doing," Hagrid mumbled. he stared through his binoculars. "If I didn't know better, I'd say he'd lost control of his broom... but he can't have..." - PS/SS. p.189, paperback. I think McGonagall and Hooch were in the same situation as Hagrid was. So, NO it does not suggest to me that Snape was saving Harry as more than job requirement. Besides, let's not forget another very important party in Harry's rescue - Hermione. I think she should at least share credit with Snape, won't you agree? Alla: One more thing, Dumbledore also saved Harry's life in PoA when he was falling down from the sky after dementor's attack. Do you think that this action also needs special acknowledgement?< Betsy Hp: Well, yeah. Generally, if someone saves my life, I express some form of gratitude. It's how my mama raised me. :P Alla: Sigh again. More than "Thank you" Betsy, do you think Dumbledore's action deserves more than thank you? What if the only positive action of Dumbledore's towards Harry was that rescue and he otherwise would have been a sadistic bastard like Snape? Do you think Harry would still have to respect Dumbledore? JMO, Alla. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 02:35:24 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 02:35:24 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130140 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > SSSusan: > > I know we'll never agree on this, so I shouldn't even try, but.... > ;-) > > > > You see that scene as Lupin hiding BEHIND Neville in order to > > embarrass Snape. I see it as Lupin helping Neville STEP UP to take > > on Snape and return a bit of the humiliation Snape's forced him to > > take over the years. While I think Lupin has some concerns where > > cowardice is involved, this scene never struck me as cowardly at > all. > > > > Pippin: > See, when Lupin wanted to help Harry to step up to the dementors, he > didn't have Harry use riddikulus, because that would only have helped > Harry cope with the boggart. It wouldn't have been any use against a > real dementor at all. Harry had to learn to take the worst a dementor > could throw at him and still keep his happy thought in mind. > > So, I don't think helping Neville cope with his fear of Snape was > Lupin's priority. It was about embarrassing Snape, and that wasn't > likely to help Neville -- indeed it didn't, for we soon learn that > Snape was bullying Neville worse than ever. Neri: Like SSSusan, I realize this is all a matter of opinion, but I think DD is of the same opinion as SSSusan, or he wouldn't have joined Lupin in embarrassing Snape with that little joke with the stuffed vulture hat that came out of the cracker in the Christmas feast. And in front of Harry, Ron, Hermione and all the teachers too. I see this as DD making his opinion known, in his typical good-natured manner, about whom does he side with in this specific matter. Cheers, Albus. Regarding your scenario for the Prank, Pippin, I'm still not 100% clear about how exactly it goes. In any case, I guess it could be made to work, since we know so little about the Prank and we can invent whatever we don't know. As you pointed out we can't even be sure if it happened over one night or more. Still, I find it very difficult to imagine super-evil Remus who at the age of 16 is capable of cold-blood murder, knows how to use the Imperious or something equivalent, and manages to hide it all from both DD and his friends, *but* can't even device a simple and efficient plan to get rid of Severus, and instead invents this complex plot that involves himself and his friends and naturally fails, not to mention that it could have easily failed much worse than it did. Remus could have been an evil mastermind like Tom, or he could have been a rather stupid and coward kid, but I can't see him being *both*. Neri From Calimora at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 03:03:49 2005 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 03:03:49 -0000 Subject: Explaining the danger to Harry (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130141 Julie Said: > > Snape, who actually acted slightly better toward Harry during > > Occlumency than he normally does in Potions (he actually gave > > Harry grudging praise at one point during Occlumency, perhaps > > the first he has ever delivered to Harry), still only manages > > to improve his behavior *slightly.* And that wasn't enough, not > > when so much was at stake. Snape didn't suck it up for the > > cause like he should have, and put all his personal feelings > > aside, which was his mistake. Me (Calimora): I'm not sure Snape can suck it up that much. Consider, if Snape knew that Voldemort could be spying on the Order through Harry, then he knew that his life could literaly rest on his ability to teach. This should be the defining moment of his teaching career. (Depending on how many layers of double agenting you think Snape is acting under.) After all, Harry has more information on Snape's activities than any other (active) member of the order. In my mind, this should be one heck of a motivating factor. It is also a motivation that Harry lacks entirely. As Julie mentions later in her post, the visions have never caused him harm, infact, they helped saved a life. People may have told him that things had changed, but in previous years authority figures have told him on numerous occasions to stay out of things - but when he gets into them he's always been praised for his actions after the fact. Also important to keep in mind is that Harry has never been irrepairably injured or punished for specific and resonable incidences. Cedric was random. The Durselys, Snape, and Umbridge got him for everything and anything, while the one other serious detention mentioned - 150 pts for breaking curfew in 1st yr - actually should have been for dragon smuggling and much worse. The impact of that punishment was further mitigated by Dumbledore's point game at the closing feast. In Harry's experience, action and negative consequences are rare companions. (In many ways I think the HP kids are probably somewhat less mature than muggles of a similar age, simply because so much can be 'fixed' with magic. But that's a whole other can of worms.) Kristen Said: You make a good point about Snape, but this is > another place I feel Harry made a mistake. While it made for a > great story and interesting reading I think Harry was way out of > line to take a dip in the pensive s to see Snape's memories. > Granted it does not really fair that Snape gets to hide some of > his memories in a pensive while Harry's memories are available for > Snape to probe. But... unfortunately life is not often fair. Me: Actually, I blame this one almost entirely on Dumbledore and the lack of a 'wizarding culture' class at Hogwarts. When a child is caught sneaking a cookie, the parent's should give him a swat on the hand and extra broccoli at dinner, not offer to pour the milk. Harry did dip into a penseive once before and insted of being told that it was a gross violation of privacy he and Dumbledore sat down and discussed what he saw. The thing that bugged Harry most about the episode was not that he peeked, but that he opened a cupboard to do so. Snape's was right in the open. It was also the first time personal information was seen in a pensieve. The difference between the two experiences is like going over a work note book and reading a diary. As for Harry's hesitation equalling knowlage of wrong doing - He didn't really know that he was Wrong, he knew that he'd get In Trouble and that he shouldn't be doing it. Both of which are entirely different than wrong (as in moraly reprehensible). Julie Said: > > And he even resorted to lying to everyone about whether he was > > practicing Occlumency to stay a course he knew was wrong. > And Kristen replied: > I really like the point you make about Harry's own > the key point to me is that Harry knew it was wrong to keep having > the dreams because he lied to his friends and felt guilty. Me: I find it amusing that Harry's lying is noteworthy in this instance. Go reread the books. Fudge is about the only authority figure that the trio haven't lied to or deliberately manipulated. It's also not the first time Harry's lied to his friends about something 'important'. Remember the Second Task? It may have been 'just a game' but Harry thought it was life and death. After all, people had died in the tournament. Actually, so much of what Harry has done in the past few years was life and death that he probably has problems thinking in half measures. Julie Again: > > But this is all about Harry maturing and reaching his potential. > > If he is to do that, then he must look back at where *he* went > > wrong and accept his mistakes. That's part of maturing. (Oh, and > > whether Snape does the same--doubtful--is beside the point, > > because this is about Harry growing up and fulfilling his > > potential as a person, not Snape--who likely never will.) > > > > In the end it is about accepting responsibility for your own > > actions, and leaving others to accept or not accept their own > > culpability. That is what will prove Harry's character, to > > himself and to us. Me: I totaly agree, As one of my favorite fanfic authors said - Being an adult is not knowing more or doing more. It is making your own choice about how much you should know and how much you should do. ~Calimora (But am bloody-minded enough to want others to notice Harry's growth and get what's coming to them.) From kking0731 at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 03:26:37 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 03:26:37 -0000 Subject: Possible Spoiler: The one who dies in HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130142 S P O I L E R S P A C E . . . . . For those of you who could not help but take a peek at who has been rumored to die in HBP, you already know then that it has been said to be Dumbledore. At first, remembering that Dumbledore was also rumored to die in OOP, I dismissed it as nothing more than hype. I personally can't see how Dumbledore's death could further the storyline other than Harry loses all his mentors and loved one's, like Job in the bible, and still stays strong in his convictions. However, most recently with the HBP books being stolen, I have reevaluated this possibility and thought that this rumor could come to light, but still can't see his death pushing the story further. Dumbledore dead, nahhh though it would make a great conclusion to this book and lead into the finale. Then I said to myself, out loud so that my children could hear me, Dumbledore dieing serves very little useful purpose. My daughter hearing this replied, "of course he's going to die but he will be reborn in his ashes". The Dumbledore/Fawkes connection has always been intriguing to me. One of the most exciting scenes in the books so far, to me, is the one in Dumbledore's office when he said to Fudge: " Well- it's just that you seem to be laboring under the delusion that I am going to ? what is the phrase? Come quietly >snip utter chaos up to the Fawkes representation< Fawkes circled the office and swooped low over him. Dumbledore released Harry, raised his hand, and grasped the phoenix's tail. There was a flash of fire and the pair of them had gone. OOP pg. 621 and 622 Now this isn't like Floo powder that protects you from the flames to move from place to place. Fawkes and Dumbledore have a connection, imo, that goes deeper than mere pet. I have always suspected that Fawkes feathers were a connection with Dumbledore, Tom Riddle and Harry. Past post referencing: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/109837 but more so in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/109908 I rather like the idea of Dumbledore dieing only to resume his mentor type behavior via his Fawkes-like abilities. Snow From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 6 04:33:36 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 04:33:36 -0000 Subject: JKR interview in 2 weeks, send in your ?'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lindseyharrisst" Snapesangel wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129901 : << I was wondering about the difference, in magical terms, between portraits that can obviously communicate and seem to have an awareness and wizarding photographs, which move but do not. >> According to Colin Creevey in CoS, wizarding photos move because they were developed in a special potion. It is said that one of the extras on the CoS DVD (I have not seen it myself) is JKR explaining that the magical portraits are made in a time consuming way that includes the model must sit for it for a long time and some body material of the model is mixed into the paint. It makes sense that portraits have much more oomph! than photographs as they're so much harder to make. << *As regards portraits, do the wizards in them have true awareness, as if they were somehow still alive within the portrait if they were dead, for example, or is it a bit like an interactive simulation? *If someone is alive and has a portrait somewhere, can knowledge pass between the two, so that if portrait!dumbledore was watching something happen, real!dumbledore would know? >> Some listies think Yes, saying that the way Dumbledore knows so much is because he can see and hear everything any of his Chocolate Frog cards can see or hear. I don't believe it, myself. << *Does creating a portrait leave something of the person behind in the way that becoming a ghost does? I starting thinking that it would be lovely to be able to continue to communicate with a dead person through keeping their portrait with you and that led to me wondering if that would really be what you would be doing, even in the wizrding world. If it is, I don't see why everyone doesn't have their portrait painted! >> JKR answered that in her Edinburgh post-OoP lecture: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2004/0804-ebf.htm << Q: All the paintings we have seen at Hogwarts are of dead people. They seem to be living through their portraits. How is this so? If there was a painting of Harry's parents, would he be able to obtain advice from them? JKR: That is a very good question. They are all of dead people; they are not as fully realised as ghosts, as you have probably noticed. The place where you see them really talk is in Dumbledore's office, primarily; the idea is that the previous headmasters and headmistresses leave behind a faint imprint of themselves. They leave their aura, almost, in the office and they can give some counsel to the present occupant, but it is not like being a ghost. They repeat catchphrases, almost. The portrait of Sirius' mother is not a very 3D personality; she is not very fully realised. She repeats catchphrases that she had when she was alive. If Harry had a portrait of his parents it would not help him a great deal. If he could meet them as ghosts, that would be a much more meaningful interaction, but as Nick explained at the end of Phoenix ? I am straying into dangerous territory, but I think you probably know what he explained ? there are some people who would not come back as ghosts because they are unafraid, or less afraid, of death. >> When I reported that answer to my friend Lee, she argued with it. She agreed that the portrait of Mrs Black can well be described as repeating catch phrases she had when she was alive, but perhaps the portrait's raving insanity is due to the painting being only a faint imprint rather than to Mrs Black having suffered from, I forget the exact name, cortical temporal lobe dementia. (More colloquially called "she got to be as loopy as Kreachur".) But, she said, the portraits of former Headmasters and Headmistresses, especially Phineas Nigellus, show as much reaction to and opinion of current events as the ghosts do. My own question is whether all the moving paintings at Hogwarts are portraits. Is Sir Cadogan a real person who had his portrait painted, rather than a generic illustration of medieval adventure tales? How about the cows among whom the Fat Lady hid? From Calimora at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 04:34:00 2005 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 04:34:00 -0000 Subject: Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130144 > Betsy Hp: > > And since Occlumency was an actual lesson under an actual professor and assigned by the actual headmaster of an actual school, Harry was indeed under an obligation to behave like an actual student. > Me (Calimora): To that, no, just no. If my dean of genetics comes to me and tells me it is vitaly important for me to master the Kama Sutra so I must attend practical lessons with my chemistry professor, I have a right to say no. Even if I have been listening to his advice for four years. (I don't care if I have a duty to procrate or not.) You might say that this is a bad anology, but consider Harry's state after each lesson. Exhausted, angry, humiliated, his every thought, emotion, experience and secret laid bare to a man he loaths. As savior to the wizarding world he Might have an obligation to endure this, but NOT for his role as a student. > Betsy Hp: > Here's where I go, "Awwww, poor baby Potter having to operate with > only vague threats and shadowy warnings. Life is soooo hard for > you," with little to no pity since the prophecy Dumbledore has > been acting under is pretty much a vague hope and shadowy > warnings. Welcome to a semi-realistic battle field, kid. The > enemy won't be wearing black hats and he sure as hell ain't > sharing his plans with you. Me: I can never find fault when Harry chooses not to react to the vague and shadowy warnings. His whole life at Hogwarts has been vague and shadowy warnings compounded with vague and shadowy threats, but prior to OotP Harry and friends have always come through unscathed. In fact, prior to the department fiasco, the only death or maiming Harry had ever seen came entirely without warning. (i.e. Cedric and Barty Crouch, Jr.) > >>Phoenixgod: > >As for DD, he had done precious little that year to earn any > >goodwill for Harry. And I certainly wouldn't put any trust in a > >man who wouldn't look me in the eye for a year either.< > Betsy Hp: > *sigh* Okay. If that's how you want to see it, if you want to > completely ignore the murderous and animalistic rage that swept > through Harry whenever Dumbledore *did* look him in the eye. Me: I'm with PhoenixGod, on this one. 'Dumbledore couldn't even look at him' is not an excuse for leaving your orphaned protege twisting in the wind for a year. Not in a society with ink and paper. "Dear Harry, I'm sorry we can't speak face to face right now. I'll tell you why - in person - once you've mastered Occulmency. -Dumbledore p.s. Feel to send a note via houselves any time you need me." An 'explanation' and a goad for his curiosity - solid motivation for Harry - all in one. No vague 'you will understand soon enough' (which he didn't). > Betsy Hp: > or the obvious manuvering Dumbledore had to do to keep the > Ministry as out of Hogwarts as possible, fine. Me: Nobody likes an Idiot trampling their turf. And Fudge is demonstrateably an Idiot. > Betsy Hp: > we'll have to ignore Dumbledore's defense of Harry keeping him out > of Azkaban and in Hogwarts at the beginning of OotP, and > Dumbledore's sacrifice of his headmaster position to once again > keep Harry in Hogwarts in the middle of OotP too. Me: You have a valid point here. Sort of. A) Dumbledore is fighting a war. One that the ministry doesn't want him to fight. In a way, It was probably easier for him to do it from hiding than in the well watched fish bowl of Hogwarts. B) How much of a sacrifice was it? All of the teachers were still loyal to him. The students that loathed Umbridge still loathed her. What I thought was the most blanant abuse of power, The Inquistorial Squad, was made while Dumbledore was still there. So the students were distracted from their studies and learned and learned nothing in DADA, just like most other years. All that changed was that Harry no longer had even the possiblity of asking Dumbledore for help (not that Harry would have). > >>Phoenixgod: > >Of course they [the dreams] also saved someones life and was > >proving to be Harry's only source of information for an entire > >year. I wouldn't want to shut that down with what I knew either. > > > Betsy Hp: > So you wouldn't mind the thought that your greatest enemy had > total access to your mind? And could make you feel or do things > against your will? I would add that the dreams provided Harry > with a lot of *false* information. Me: Three things to keep in mind in addition to PheonixGod's information point: One, The Dreams Saved a Weasley. Two, Prior to Bellatrix killing Sirius, Snape was Harry's *second* greatest enemy. And from Harry's point of veiw, a heck of a lot more prevelent on a day to day basis than Voldemort. Three, The only information that was proven to Harry to be false was the DoM. And that was discovered a little late. > Betsy Hp: > Dumbledore, IMO, did not change a bit in OotP. He kept a secret > he told Harry he was going to keep in PS/SS. He allowed Harry to > get into his schoolboy adventures (the battle against Umbridge) > and at the same time did his best to keep Harry safe. The one who > changed, again IMO, was Harry. Harry had always seen Dumbledore > as almost godlike in his powers and knowledge. Now that Harry is > growing up he's starting to realize that the all-powerful adults > around him are merely human. Me: Dumbledore did stay the same. But so did Harry (with the exception of ALLCAPS) and therein lies the problem. The situation had changed. While I have issues characterizing any event that requires a prepubidecent child to slaughter a poisonous man eating snake or help a convict escape from the authorities as 'schoolboy' anything, I do agree that Dumbledore managed to manage them. Indeed, they were often urged on by his cryptic statments. The difference was that the stakes had changed, and the secret Harry was looking for was one of Dumbledore's. As to Dumbledore not being all powerful and God like. Read it again. Specificaly the scene where Dumbledore takes out a squad of aurors in his office and where he saves Harry next to the Fountain of Magical Brethern. If that's not Deux Ex Machina, I don't know what is. ~Calimora (getting a bit shirty, sorry about that.) From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 6 04:37:39 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 04:37:39 -0000 Subject: Patronus/Animagus In-Reply-To: <429A60F4.8090802@yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130145 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Michelle Crowe wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129723 : << It does *not* make sense to me, however, that Harry's animagus form would be the same as his father's. There is no mention (that I recall) of any hereditary nature in animagus skill. >> I don't think there's anything hereditary about animagus form, but it is canon that animagus form reflects personality: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm << kelly_holland: When you turn into an Animagus, can you choose what animal you become? Or does this get "assigned" to you? JK Rowling replies -> No, you can't choose. You become the animal that suits you best. Imagine the humiliation when you finally transform after years of study and find that you most closely resemble a warthog. >> (I'd be relieved to find I resembled a warthog more than the kind of hog who gets barbecued.) James's stag form reflected that he was a natural leader, proud, competitive, even combative. I don't think it reflected his intelligence, nor his loyalty to his friend, his wife, his child, and Dumbledore/goodness, nor his flying and Quidditch ability. In past discussions, some listies have said that they expect Harry's Animagus form would be a stag because he is developing into a natural leader. To me, the Animagus form that would fit Harry's personality best of all I can think of is a raven. Because of his innate flying ability, his intelligence, his black hair... But James had those traits and didn't become a raven ... We'll never find out, as Harry is not going to become an Animagus: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/109 9-pressclubtransc.htm << Sean Bullardquestion19 {24.56}: We're going to take a few more questions and um, the next one is: "Will Harry ever turn into a *shape-changer* like his father?" J.K. Rowling: No, Harry's not in training to be an animagus. If you ... unless you've read book 3, you won't know ... that's a wizard that ... it's very, very difficult to do. They, they ... learn to turn themselves into animals. No, Harry is not ... Harry's energies are going to be concentrated elsewhere and he's not going to have time to do that. He's got quite a full agenda coming up, poor, poor boy. >> From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 6 04:49:46 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 04:49:46 -0000 Subject: Sorting/Lockhart/Remus/Malfoys/Theo'sMum/TMR'sMum/PeterAtGH/ 1/2Giant/theOoP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130147 Caput Draconis: http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/38/3814.html << 38:14 ? The sun, the moon, and all the planets (seem to) move around the earth in a belt that is at most 18 degrees wide. This belt is known as the zodiac (see 35:3 in Group 35). The middle of the belt is known as the ecliptic, or the "way of the sun." The movement of the moon around the earth follows an orbit that is slightly slanting in relation to the ecliptic. On each of its revolutions around the earth the moon cuts the ecliptic at two places. The point where the moon cuts the ecliptic from south to north is known as the moon's north node or caput draconis, the dragon's head. [picture] These signs for the north node have different forms but are, nevertheless, similar to one another. These nodes take 18?19 years to move one full revolution through the zodiac. The 18-year cycles are important both in astronomy, as they make eclipses possible to predict, and in human life, as they correspond to the age when individuals are allowed to marry, manage their own bank accounts, drive cars, etc. The sign in the middle of those shown here is the graph for the north node as it was drawn in a Greek natal chart more than 2,000 years ago. According to astrology [picture] in a natal chart is a symbol for gifts and resources made available to the individual without them having been consciously sought. It is also associated with blood relations and sexual contacts that lead to childbirth. >> Snow wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/129670 : << So then it is just peer-pressure that causes a child to react to the house in which he resides? If you are in Hufflepuff, you automatically realize that you are NOT book-learned (Ravenclaw) or BRAVE (Gryffindor) or AMBITIOUS (Slytherin) and then, you adjust to the spirit of said house? >> Well, Cedric Diggory from Hufflepuff was visibly Brave, and putting his name in the Goble of Fire strikes me as Ambitious. Eloise wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129678 : << in PoA a charlatan of a DADA teacher (and surely Dumbledore knew that) >> Apparently DD knew not only about the lying, but about the Memory Charms, because at the end of CoS when the kids explained to DD that Lockhart was hit by a Memory Charm, DD said something about, "well, Gilderoy, impaled with your own sword?" Christelle wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129679 : << Are we sure the potion is needed all the week before the full moon? >> Whether Remus has to take the potion once anytime during that week (my first impression) or once each day of that week, or some other schedule, is one of the questions that madden me with lack of answers. Ginger wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129919 : << I love Lupin and I think he is the huggiest bunny in the bunch and wouldn't hurt a fly. >> Hey! Of course Remus is the huggiest bunny in the bunch, but he's NOT a wuss! He was going to help Sirius KILL Peter, knowing they'd both be sent to Azkaban for it, only because honor demanded vengeance for James and loyalty demanded sharing the penalty with Sirius. As Elkins said, he has Edge. Btw WHY did they roll up their sleeves? Most of the spells I can think of for magically killing someone (e.g. strangling him with that role that materialized from fingertips and ties people up) don't involve messy blood! Betsey wrote more about his Edge in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129943 . Geoff wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129690 : << I wonder sometimes whether the marriage of Narcissa and Lucius had something of an arranged match about it and that, having produced an heir, Lucius is too involved with other matters to be really close to his wife. >> Or whether Narcissa and Lucius are 'bestest mates' but view children as boring nuisances and their own child as a necessary evil (necessary for the sake of perpetuating the family line). If there ever really was discussion of sending him to Durmstrang and Narcissa objected, it may not have been because she didn't want her little boy to go so far away, but that she thought him too frail to survive the punishments at Durmstrang. If Draco died, they'd have to start over with another baby. Amber sunnylove quoted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129704 : << "I know much more about Theodore Nott than has ever appeared in the books. Raised by a very elderly widower and Death Eater >> I suppose Theo can see the Thestrals because he witnessed his mother's death -- I don't think it's too far a conclusion to jump to, that when a child is raised by its widowed father, the dead wife was the child's mother. What did she die of? If she was as elderly as her husband, she could have died of old age. If she was as elderly as her husband, wouldn't she be well past menopause (even if long-lived witches reach menopause much later than short-lived muggles) and unable to bear a child Theo's age? Years ago, I put in my fanfic that young Nott was the offspring of old Nott and a young second wife, somewhat younger than his children by his first wife. lilhogan/Lauren also asked my above question in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129782 and also : << Otherwise, do we know specifically what other things people in the WW can die from? Accidents? Hexes? Falling off a broomstick? >> Well, in Quidditch Through the Ages (QTTA), we learned that there is an annual broomstick race through a Swedish dragon reserve, where it is popular for fans to gather at the starting line to watch the contestants take off, and then Apparate to the finish line to congratulate the survivors. So, burnt or eaten by dragons. We also learned that the great player 'Dangerous' Dai Llewellyn was killed by a Chimera while vacationing on Mykonos. Inkling wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129784 : << Still it seems bizarre that a witch would die in childbirth when it so rarely happens even in the muggle world these days. >> It has been suggested on-list that childbirth is MORE dangerous for a witch than a Muggle. It has been established that wizarding children do involuntary magic when they're frightened or angry. MAYBE the wizarding children can't do involuntary magic until they can walk or until they can speak or some other age-related milestone. But if they're BORN with that ability, like the ability to breathe or the ability to suck, when would they be MORE frightened and angry than when being pushed through an excessively narrow tube into a cold and unfamiliar world? Magda wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129766 : << I don't believe that Voldemort took anyone with him to GH except Pettigrew, to make sure that Pettigrew was telling the truth about the location of GH and to sadistically rub it in to James that one of his closest friends had turned ("the power of Voldemort knows no limits!"). >> I'm sure LV took Peter to Godric's Hollow, whoever else he did or didn't take. I used to believe he took Peter to make sure that Peter was telling him the truth rather than leading him into an ambush, but the revelation that LV can read minds (Legilimency) means he had that easier way to find out if Peter was conning him. That's why I was so grateful for your http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129686 : << I think the plan then was for Sirius, having arranged to check on Pettigrew that night, would do what he said in POA he did: get nervous and go to GH to make sure everything was all right. Except that he would run into a triumphant Voldemort who would kill him. Peter would then be able to blubber to Dumbledore that he'd killed Sirius in self-defense and out of rage at his betrayal of the Potters. Then Pettigrew could return to the Order and resume spying, having proved his loyalty credentials... >> Jen wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr ownups/message/129767 : << Until this moment I never saw the fly in the ointment, but Snape wouldn't be able to find GH if it's hidden by Fidelius. And if he *did* find GH because Peter disclosed the location to him (by note so Snape doesn't know it's Peter and not Sirisu), when Snape shows up at the Potter's door James would know Peter has betrayed them by revealing the location to Snape. They would have contacted DD and been removed to another location. >> Snape could not have warned James at Godric's Hollow for the reason you explain, but he could have told Dumbledore for Dumbledore to pass the warning on to James, and Dumbledore could have arranged for James to come to Hogwarts to hear Snape's tale in person. Heather the buzzard wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129816 : << As for the whole no-one-knew-he-was-a-half-giant thing, I hardly think that a giantess actually living with a local wizard and bearing his child would go unnoticed. It happened a long time ago, and was probably not freely talked about, so it's not surprising that none of the KIDS would know. But I suspect the elder folk did. >> Then why was it such a big deal when Rita Skeeter published about it? Gerry wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130021 : << We are talking about a higly dangerous membership of a secret order in a war. You get in because you are useful and know how to handle yourself, in other words because you have a certain level of maturity so people can count on you. It is not a reward for being a good boy. What Harry shows throughout the book is that he is not fit to be a member of the Order. He has not the necessary level of maturity yet. >> But Sirius does? And Snape? And Mundungus? From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 06:01:54 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 06:01:54 -0000 Subject: Draco & Harry - Nature of Friendship In-Reply-To: <20050605235645.64112.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > >> Magda: > >> Dumbledore's comment to Harry about Snape-James being like > >> Harry-Draco would also take on new meaning as I really believe > >> that as much as he goes after Harry so much Draco very much wants > >> to be Harry's friend (as much as Draco understands the word). > > SSSusan: > > ...Magda, ...I notice you used the *present* tense here. Is that > > what you think? That Draco still WANTS to be Harry's friend, or > > that at one time he truly WANTED to be his friend? If the former, > > I would love to hear more. > Magda again: > > Well,..., Draco's idea of friendship probably isn't the same as > Ron's or Harry's; ... But yes, I do think that Draco would still > like to "be friends with" Harry if he could figure out a way to do > it. In Draco's mind it would require Harry coming to him > apologetically and Draco grandly forgiving Harry his foolishness > over the past five years. > bboyminn: I'm inclined to agree, in 'More-More Thoughts about Draco' post# 129700, I comment on the nature of Draco's friendship. I think Draco's first overtures at friendship with Harry, while highly disfunctional, were genuine attempts within the context that Draco understands friendship. And I think Draco, still deep deep down, subconsciously desires that friendship. In the first part of the post I referrenced, I discuss how it is possible to despise Draco for his actions, but knowing his backstory, still have sympathy for him. And, while I think he is an arrogant, obnoxious, nastly, self-centered twit, I do truly feel very sorry for Draco. While he plays his game well and puts on a good front, one that has even him fooled, I have to believe that deep down Draco is very lonely and unsatisfied. The friendships he has are very 'strategic'. Most of the people he is close to are more 'hangers on' that actually friends, and I have to believe that Draco can never trust the affections of anyone who shows him kindness, because, and rightfully so, those affections are probably very self-serving. Has Draco ever really had a personal conversation with anyone in his entire life? Has he ever sat down with a selfless intellectual equal, and dealt with them one-on-one, heart-to-heart, mind-to-mind? I doubt it. Such a simple thing, a friend to talk to, yet to Draco, so very elusive. Sadly, because of this relationship disfunction, I see a very sad, lonely, embittered life for Draco, although, Draco is sufficiently deluded by his disfunction, that he many never consciously realize that loneliness. > Magda continues: > > To reach back to James/Sirius/Snape: I wondered if the Marauders' > view that Snape followed them around to get them in trouble ... is > accurate because I was re-reading PS/SS and it occurs to me that > before Hermione becomes friends with Ron and Harry, what she does > could be described as following them around trying to get them in > trouble. When of course she's trying to make friends with them, > which is why Ron's comment that no one likes her makes her hide in > the bathroom and cry. > > Magda bboyminn: I find this comparison/parallel between Snape and Hermione very interesting, and yes, I think there is a fair comparison there. Although, I think the depth of Snape social disfuntion goes far deep, and has been in place far longer than Hermione's. Hermione is somewhat disfunction, but she comes for a good family, and has the good fortune to stumble across a couple people that she 'clicks' with. Snape on the other hand, based on the small clues we have received regarding his backstory, does not come from a nice family, and the depth and darkness of his social disfunction runs long and deep. We never see Snape in a comfortable social situation. Certainly with students brusk and to-the-point, but even with staff and other wizards, he seems stiff, formal, and distant. Maybe there was a chance, when Snape was younger, for him to stumble across a couple true and loyal friends the way Hermione managed, but I think, those would have had to have been some very tolerant, insightful, patient, and very understanding people. But sadly, a lot of life is luck. Instead of finding deep and true friend like Hermione, Snape found the same 'strategic' friends that Draco has, only they were far more dark, dangerous, and intelligent than Grabbe and Goyle. I suspect that under the best conditions, there will alway be an element of sadness to Draco's life; whether he sees it or not. Steve/bboyminn From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon Jun 6 06:22:36 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 06:22:36 -0000 Subject: Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130149 > Betsy Hp: > I was replying more to Lupinlore's implication that Harry was well > out of the fight until mean old Dumbledore pulled him in. But if > you're talking an actual draft notice you'll need to point out an > actual WW army. IOW, I doubt Lily or James or Sirius or Lupin > received any draft papers either. But they all volunteered. Harry did too and was turned down. That pretty much ends their wartime authority imo. > > And since Occlumency was an actual lesson under an actual professor > and assigned by the actual headmaster of an actual school, Harry was > indeed under an obligation to behave like an actual student. Not when the lessons are outside the normal curriculm. But I was also a notoriously anti-authoritarian teen :) that could be tainting my opinion. > Betsy Hp: > Here's where I go, "Awwww, poor baby Potter having to operate with > only vague threats and shadowy warnings. Life is soooo hard for > you," with little to no pity since the prophecy Dumbledore has been > acting under is pretty much a vague hope and shadowy warnings. > Welcome to a semi-realistic battle field, kid. The enemy won't be > wearing black hats and he sure as hell ain't sharing his plans with > you. I agree that the enemy doesn't do that. Seems to me thats a good reason to share as much information as humanly possible between allies. Knowledge is always better than Ignorance. I understand why Harry couldn't be told everything and I think so did Harry. Still there was a pretty wide gulf between the amount of information that DD could have shared safely and did share. As he freely admits at the end of the book. > I'll also posit that Dumbledore may not have had an exact "why". I > don't think he knew exactly how Voldemort would choose to attack > Harry, he just had the knowledge that Voldemort had realized there > was a mental link. He didn't seem all that surprised the Voldemort went after the prophecy. I think he forsaw exactly what Voldemort wanted and how he would try to get it. > Betsy Hp: > Actually, I thought Snape was strangely *supportive* of Harry > throughout the lessons. He didn't do anything with the majorly > embarrassing information he culled from Harry's mind. How was he going to bring that up without blowing his cover? I think if he could have he certainly would have used it against Harry. This is after all a guy who made a specific point to mock a fourteen year olds teeth. He didn't get > upset when Harry invaded his mind, he even *praised* Harry for it. There were more than than a few insults flying from Snapes mouth on various occasions. He also specifically designed a cover that would publiclly humiliate Harry. he didn't need to do that. combined with the invasive nature of the lessons and the personal animosity between them I don't see how the lessons could have ended any differently. Even without Voldemort's influence. I think there probably is a bit of both of our POVs in the lessons and we are both just focusing on the parts that reinforce our beliefs. > Betsy Hp: > *sigh* Okay. If that's how you want to see it, if you want to > completely ignore the murderous and animalistic rage that swept > through Harry whenever Dumbledore *did* look him in the eye, Yes, because their certainly aren't a million ways around that. I don't know, how about using a calming potion to keep Harry from flying off the handle, his giant magical bird's chirp of peace to keep Voldie out (you think he would be able to possess Harry around a phoenix?), telling what you know to Harry *after* you put him in a full body bind, or hell, using Dobby and pad of Notebook paper. Harry can still read, right? I just don't buy that DD's only option was deeply invasive lessons with a teacher Harry hates. It's just...implausible. >the > obvious manuvering Dumbledore had to do to keep the Ministry as out > of Hogwarts as possible, fine. Yeah, that was all for Harry and not to preserve his own power or for the greater good of the war (I'm glad he did, but that wasn't designed to help Harry. It was designed to protect the institution he loved). And he didn't even do a very good job of it since all his authority was snatched out from under his nose. I suppose > we'll have to ignore Dumbledore's defense of Harry keeping him out of > Azkaban and in Hogwarts at the beginning of OotP, Was that the time where he showed up, didn't look or speak to harry, saved him and then left right away without saying hi? Not what I would call the greatest trust building exercise I've ever seen. and Dumbledore's > sacrifice of his headmaster position to once again keep Harry in > Hogwarts in the middle of OotP too. A good point. I always liked that scene. Best DD scene in the book. Maybe one of the best in the series. And yes, if *all* of those > factors and incidents are removed, Dumbledore was shockingly lazy and > mean. I knew you would see it my way ;) (We'll do best to ignore the many times Dumbledore has saved > Harry's life as well. That might just confuse the issue.) Are we also forgetting all the times Harry has saved the day or the school or someones life so that we can pretend that Harry is just another teenager who needs to be sheltered from the badness of the world. That could also confuse the issue and make Dumbledore look, well, bad. > Betsy Hp: > I can see your point here, Phoenixgod. And it's unfortunate that > Dumbledore was *unable* to approach Harry and only Snape had the > ability to help Harry. I think Dumbledore hoped that the DA club > (the equivalent of a junior Order) would keep Harry occupied and give > him a sense of accomplishment. It also struck me as odd that if he wanted to give Harry a normal teenagers life for one more year, why not make him a prefect. his reasoning always seemed off to me, but a relatively minor off compared to other more glaring issues I have. > Betsy Hp: > So you wouldn't mind the thought that your greatest enemy had total > access to your mind? And could make you feel or do things against > your will? I'm a bad example. I would have learned Occulomency but I would also be Animagus by this book :) As for the connection, if I thought I could get more positve than negative out of the deal I wouldn't shut it down. hell, I would focus on Legimency so I could start making V do things. that would end the war quick. I would add that the dreams provided Harry with a lot of > *false* information. None of that was known at the time. Only in hindsight was it realized. up till that point his dreams and scar had led him true. > Betsy Hp: > So answer me this, why didn't McGonagall do anything? Or Flitwick? > Or Sprout? Maybe they didn't know the counter charm or realize that harry's broom was charmed and it wasn't just a first time quiddich player screwing up due to nerves. > Betsy Hp: > Rather than get into a symantics argument I'll reword. Harry needs > to learn from and make amends for his mistakes. As Dumbledore has > (and is probably still) doing. As Snape has been doing (IMO) for > five books. I'm not saying Harry has commited a great and horrible > sin for which he must crawl through broken glass. A simple apology > to Ron and the others would go a long way, I think. I agree. He should definitely thank the others for following him into battle. I don't even > expect an apology to Snape (though a thank you for saving my life. > Again. would be nice). Maybe. Although I personally thank that saving Harry is the least Snape could do considering how much crap he gives the kid. It balances out imo. Only then will Harry be able to grow, I > think. And maybe he'll do a bit more conferring with others and a > little less rushing in. Definitely agree. > Betsy Hp: > The loss of Sirius was a strong blow to Harry, and that is probably > the worst thing that happened. But Harry, though important of > course, is not, at this time, the most important member of the > Order. We disagree once again. Seems to me that by defintion the guy who can win the war is the most important one and when you weapon is a living breathing person with feelings, its best not to leave them a wreck. Also, there is a reason that a huge number of fan fics start out year six with Harry bitter and disillsioned with DD. Because that is an outcome that could easily occur. It won't thanks to author fiat but Dumbledore doesn't have that knowledge. You are right, it wasn't as bad as it could have been but it could have been a prophecy ending catastrophe. and it would have been all because DD wouldn't share information. > > Betsy Hp: > Dumbledore, IMO, did not change a bit in OotP. I still say that before OOTP Dumbledore was shown to deeply respect Harry's abilities and accomplishments. I cannot square the actions of that man with the coward that I saw in OOTP. I mean for gods sake, he sent Harry back in time! two years ealier. It doesn't make any sense to me that the man who could do that was unable to do better in this book. He kept a secret he > told Harry he was going to keep in PS/SS. And he should have when Harry was eleven. Things changed. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I don't see either of us budging much. phoenixgod2000 From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 06:23:47 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 06:23:47 -0000 Subject: Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130150 Catlady quoted me: > Ginger wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129919 : > > << I love Lupin and I think he is the huggiest bunny in the bunch and > wouldn't hurt a fly. >> And Catlady replied: > Hey! Of course Remus is the huggiest bunny in the bunch, but he's NOT > a wuss! He was going to help Sirius KILL Peter, knowing they'd both > be sent to Azkaban for it, only because honor demanded vengeance for > James and loyalty demanded sharing the penalty with Sirius. As Elkins > said, he has Edge. Btw WHY did they roll up their sleeves? Most of the > spells I can think of for magically killing someone (e.g. strangling > him with that role that materialized from fingertips and ties people > up) don't involve messy blood! Ginger now: I'd say he wouldn't hurt a fly. A rat, however, is another story. ;) The above quote was in the context of ESE!Lupin. I have no doubt that Lupin would do what was necessary for the Order and/or for the fight against LV, but not because it is his nature, rather it is because he has come to understand from his involvement in VWI that sometimes one must harm someone to save someone else. I also think that his gentleness has been purposely cultivated (but also part of his nature) to offset how he must feel about his lycanthropic impulses. No, I loved Betsy's "badass" Lupin, but I do hold that he wouldn't hurt a fly. A DE, a rat, possibly even a Senior Undersecretary are all fair game should they put themselves in such a postiton, but flies are pretty safe, unless they're animagi. Ginger, taking an intense interest in our werewolf as of late. From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 07:00:32 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 07:00:32 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Motivation - That's One, Sirius, thats one Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130151 In response to a recent post here, I said that the biggest clue BY FAR in the POA movie was how fond Lupin was of Lily. Lupin seems to have lost far more than his Marauder buddies due to the Godric's Hollow disaster. This also parallels the ESE!Lupin Theory, but differs in many important respects. In particular I do not believe that Lupin was a Death Eater or supported Voldemort in any way. But Lily did play an important role in Lupin's life. So as promised, here goes .......... In Chapter 14 of OOP, Percy and Padfoot, Sirius makes a very interesting statement when he appears in the fire in the Gryffindor common room: Harry had owled Sirius a cryptic message (pg 280) asking whether Umbridge was a Death Eater and/or under the control of Lord Voldemort and whether she had anything to do with the pain in his scar. Exerpting... "So you don't think it had anything to do with Umbridge touching me when I was in detention with her?" Harry asked. "I doubt it," said Sirius. "I know her by reputation and I'm sure she's no Death Eater-" "she's foul enough to be one," said Harry darkly and Ron and Hermione nodded vigorously in agreement. "Yes, but the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters," said Sirius with a wry smile. "I know she's a nasty piece of work, though - you should hear Remus talk about her." Now although I feel that Lupin did many thing in his life that he regretted, I just don't buy into the theory that he was a spy for Voldemort. It just doesn't fit somehow... After all, TWO spies within the marauders requires too much of a stretch in judgment since Peter has been extensively described as being in league with Voldemort to be doubted. But there IS room to doubt that Lupin is as wonderful as he is described or that he does not have significant problems. So where do I see the flaws with Good!Lupin? Lupin is too passive in dealing with his friends, but that is not his FATAL flaw. He has ANOTHER flaw - a law that can be understood yet never can be condoned. The flaw is that he can NEVER forgive Sirius for destroying his life both in the past and, if he did not act, in the present as well. And ultimately this flaw will consume him before the series is concluded. Before Godric's Hollow ------------------------------------- In Chapter 18 of POA at the shrieking shack, Lupin tells his story - his being bitten as a child, the painful transformations, the lonely friendless childhood. Only when Dumbledore became headmaster was a powerful wizard able to take the necessary precautions to allow Remus to attend Hogwarts. He still became a werewolf but was protected, first by Dumbledore and Madame Pomfrey, and then by his new friends, the first he ever had...... As Lupin says (pg 354) "But apart from my transformations, I was happier than I had ever been in my life. For the first time ever, I had friends, three great friends, Sirius Black... Peter Pettigrew... and of course, your father, Harry - James Potter." This friendship continued..... and according to the POA movie, eventually included Lily, as described in a very poignant scene on the bridge with Harry. Lupin talks of what a special person Lily was, how caring and brave she was - as we read as well in Chapter 28 in OOP, Snape's Worst Memory. (Jo commented in her interview on the POA DVD about how the director "added a lot of insight"). After graduation, the marauders stayed together as members of the order, and presumedly the friendship continued, even after Lily and James were married. In fact, Lily was the first woman who was kind to him, perhaps even unafraid... And he celebrated the birth and first year of life of their first child, Harry. But Lord Voldemort was at the heights of his power and the friendships forged will soon be torn asunder... Each marauder had their flaw - Sirius was reckless, Peter was weak, James was an inconsiderate show-off, and Lupin was too passive and could not stand up to his friends..... At least not then...... And the combination of these flaws would lead to disaster at Godric's Hollow. Who's To Blame? -------------------- Lupin still blamed Sirius for the death of the Potters, even though all the evidence as provided by Sirius pointed to Petter Pettigrew, and even after Lupin provided the explanation to Harry in his own words. But then .... (POA 365) "Harry... I as good as killed them," he croaked. His voice broke. He turned away. "Enough of this," said Lupin, and there was a steely note in his voice that Harry had never heard before. Hmmm... Lupin heard, understand, and still could not listen to the excuses, the weakness... He could not forgive Sirius for his role in the Potter's death. Peter was dismissed as a weakling and non-factor by everyone who described him. Why would Sirius make Peter a SK if he hadn't in some ways screwed up himself? (Droobles Gum Wrapper Theory) And then again, I always found the following exchange rather strange .... (POA 373) "Forgive me, Remus," said Black. "Not at all, Padfoot, old friend," said Lupin, .... Figure of speech? Play on words? Maybe, but I wonder... The Consequences ------------------ So, as a result of Sirius' bad judgment at best, or his sheer recklessness at worst, Lupin's comfortable world was irretrievably shattered after Godric's Hollow. His friends dead or imprisoned, the one woman who was kind to him gone as well, her son removed to parts unknown. Remus Lupin was alone for the first time in his adult life. Whether you buy into my Droobles Gum Wrapper theory or not, there is still ample room to understand why Lupin would not be too thrilled with his old friend. He would have many long years to think about the consequences of both Sirius' actions, and his inaction. Though werewolves weren't trusted by the wizarding community, hadn't Sirius know Lupin for years? Wouldn't it have been a perfect plan.... even more of a bluff, yet even more responsible to choose him as SK rather than a weakling like Peter? As Dumbledore tells Harry, it is our choices that define us ... And Sirius' choice would not be forgotten by Lupin. That's one, Sirius, that's one ...... From littleleah at handbag.com Mon Jun 6 07:35:43 2005 From: littleleah at handbag.com (littleleahstill) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 07:35:43 -0000 Subject: Harry's role in OotP (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130152 Calimora wrote: >I'm with PhoenixGod, on this one. 'Dumbledore couldn't even look at >him' is not an excuse for leaving your orphaned protege twisting in >the wind for a year. Not in a society with ink and paper. >"Dear Harry, I'm sorry we can't speak face to face right now. I'll >tell you why - in person - once you've mastered Occulmency. >-Dumbledore >p.s. Feel to send a note via houselves any time you need me." >An 'explanation' and a goad for his curiosity - solid motivation for >Harry - all in one. No vague 'you will understand soon enough' >(which he didn't). Leah now: But DD feared Voldemort was poking about in the recesses of Harry's mind. If DD had written that note, what might VM find next time he 'got in'? Harry thinking, "I must block this, I must master Occlumency, because then DD will tell me EVERYTHING". If I were Voldemort and 'heard' that, I'd just lie quietly for a while; no more dreams until that glorious day arrived. I'm not happy with DD's behaviour, but I don't think there's a simple alternative. Leah From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Mon Jun 6 07:51:38 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 07:51:38 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130153 Geoff: The series doesn't have to end in a lovefest or with gratuitous violence which I always see as a copout anyway. I do not believe that the books will not end with a saccharin-riding-off-into-the-sunset-with- swelling-music end. Deborah: I really hope Geoff's wrong ... and I don't prefer the gratuitous-violence ending either; just want a middle way! I keep on keeping on about the Dark Is Rising books by Susan Cooper; plenty analogies, plenty differences. May I mention the ending? Please STOP NOW if you intend reading them ... < > < > < > < > S U S A N C O O P E R OK, that should do it! The idea is that there are some people - Merlin, King Arthur, Wayland Smith - and some on the dark side as well of course who can and do exist throughout time. They combat each other, combine to meet various threats, recombine later ... and all over the world, people called Old Ones are aware of and part of this ongoing struggle. In our time, the final countdown! The last of the Old Ones is born, and starts to come into his knowledge and power on his (ahem!) eleventh birthday. He meets various guides - Merlin, the Old Lady - and learns about others. His memory is spectacular, his opponents disappointing frankly. But in the fourth book he meets the Pendragon, son of Arthur and Guinevere, magically transported into our time for safety and now coming into his own power. A difficult child, almost albino, prickly and puzzled and aware of the mysteries in his past but ignorant of who he is and all the reasons. So he and the youngest Old One finally team up, succeed in defeating the bad guys, and then ? the world is left to its own devices! All the magical/supernatural excuses have become empty and invalid, and we must roll up our actual sleeves and sort out the planet and ourselves. A very optimistic message! But only possible if the magical characters withdraw; and they do, they head off to the star which will be their home - of course, there's more for them to do elsewhere in the universe as well! The youngest Old One will join them, in his own way, when he is ready (presumably, when his long life starts to look suspicious). And the Pendragon? Invited most warmly by his father - King Arthur, no less - to leave Earth with this most impressive and delightful set of travelling companions, he chooses to stay. He has formed 'loving bonds' with his adoptive father, and will voluntarily forget everything that has happened. And Arthur is proud of him, though regretful. A real tossed salad of an ending, but it works brilliantly for me. I don't' for a moment expect JKR to duplicate someone else's story line; but I do certainly trust her to be at least as subtle and imaginative, and not plunge us all into either a Stephen King bout of violent silliness or a diabetic coma. Did I mention that I can't wait? From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Mon Jun 6 08:07:26 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 08:07:26 -0000 Subject: Deborah's Bragging Hat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130154 My daughter, 15 and a dedicated Potter person, has just come to me with her reading of Fudge/Dumbledore ... she's preparing for a History exam. And she, all by herself, saw an analogy between Fudge and Neville Chamberlain, and Dumbledore and Churchill. Appease, close your mind to the facts, refuse to face the ghastly truth, and silence and sideline the one person who consistently shakes you out of your synthetic comfort zone! So, she's backing DD for the position of MfM ... and focusing on D-Day rather than Dunkirk! Share my happy moment! From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Mon Jun 6 08:11:23 2005 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 08:11:23 -0000 Subject: Snape/McGonagall/Neville (was: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > Snape applies his methods in such a drastically uneven > manner. Granted, we haven't really seen him with Ravenclaws and > Hufflepuffs yet, but he certainly has a reputation for not liking > Gryffindors and being viciously unfair to them. We practically haven't seen McGonagall with anybody but Gryffindors, maybe she's not much better than Snape? McGonagall is no saint, certainly, she's seen as "good" character mostly because Harry likes her. She criticized other teachers in front of her students (even more often than Snape), sent first-years to the Forbidden Forest against Dumbledore's explicit ban, was known not to bother with hiding impatience torwards less gifted students of her own house (Pettigrew, Longbottom) > I could certainly see > McGonagall being friends with a harsh and unfair teacher who applied > his methods evenly across the houses. I somehow don't think that, when she stopped giving homework to Gryffindors to better their chances in a match, she extended the same courtesy to Slytherins. She's as partisan as Snape, only uses different methods. > I can't see her being friends > with someone who is so obviously biased, and particularly has a > reputation of being harshly unfair to her own house above all the others. Ah, reputation... Actually, we'll have to wait till Half-Blood Prince to know how good teachers all Hogwarts staff REALLY are. There's nothing like a thorough exam by independent examiners to show who's EFFICACIOUS teacher. McGonagall certainly has no liking for teachers who fail to teach their students anything, if Snape is able of hammering knowlege into the students' heads, I think he's just fine by Minerva. Monika From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 08:38:32 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 08:38:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's role in OotP - The Connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "littleleahstill" wrote: > Calimora wrote: > > >I'm with PhoenixGod, on this one. 'Dumbledore couldn't even look at > >him' is not an excuse for leaving your orphaned protege twisting in > >the wind for a year. Not in a society with ink and paper. > > >"Dear Harry, I'm sorry we can't speak face to face right now. I'll > >tell you why - in person - once you've mastered Occulmency. > > >-Dumbledore > >p.s. Feel to send a note via houselves any time you need me." > > > An 'explanation' and a goad for his curiosity - solid motivation > > for Harry - all in one. No vague 'you will understand soon enough' > > (which he didn't). > Leah now: > > But DD feared Voldemort was poking about in the recesses of Harry's > mind. If DD had written that note, what might VM find next time > he 'got in'? Harry thinking, "I must block this, I must master > Occlumency, because then DD will tell me EVERYTHING". If I were > Voldemort and 'heard' that, I'd just lie quietly for a while; no > more dreams until that glorious day arrived. > > I'm not happy with DD's behaviour, but I don't think there's a > simple alternative. > > Leah bboyminn: It's no secret that I'm in the school that thinks Dumbedore or someone else could have very easily given Harry sufficient motivation to understand the need for Occlumency without giving away any secrets. In the example currently under discussion, you need to remind yourself that Harry only gets the 'everything' when he has learned to protect that 'everything'. And for the record, the previous poster wasn't suggesting that Harry be told 'everything', just that Dumbledore would explain what was going on once Harry learned Occlumency. The Promise of explanation would be the motivation to learn; the explanation would be the reward. The key is that in providing motivation, whether in the form of a promise of immediate need and later explanation, or sufficient information to help Harry understand the need, they could have given Harry reason to study harder. As it was, they only TOLD him to study but with no explanation as to why. He was left with frustration, confusion, anger, and an obvious lack of understanding; which are the very things that Harry didn't need in order to reach his objective. Again, poking and angry person with a sharp stick is not an effective way to calm them down. So, the 'why' doesn't have to be 'everything', just enough to motivate Harry, to give him reason for the urgencey. And I already said that I believe that could have been done without compromising Order secrets. Further, let's take a closer look at this Scar Connection; people have greatly overrate this connection by making logical but greatly exaggerated assumptions. The connection does not give Voldemort a 24 hour-a-day, know-all, see-all window into Harry's mind. Harry doesn't see into Voldemort's mind that way, so their is no reason to assume it works that way for Voldemort. So far Harry, when he is vulnerable or susceptible, as when he is in fitful sleep, can pick up on real events that are happening to Voldemort, but it is very random. Second, Harry can sense Voldemort emotions at certain times when those emotions are very strong. But he can't read Voldemort mind, he can't mine Voldemort's total bank of knowledge and memories at will. Further, so far, we have not seen that Harry can project thoughts into Voldemort's mind. I think being able to do this is like beating a lie detector. You have to so thoroughly believe what you are saying/projecting that in essense it becomes truth to you. For example, if Dumbledore, through Harry's scar connection, wanted to give Voldemort false information perhaps to just mislead him, or perhaps to lure him into a trap, it would have to be done by Harry sending a false projection of what appeared to be a real-time real-life occurance. For that to happen effectively, I speculate, Harry would have to thoroughly believe it to be true, and have a complete mental image of the events to project. Even more so, to do that, they would have to sense when Voldemort was vulnerable and therefore receptive to the projection. For Harry, that would be an extremely difficult task. Voldemort does have some advantages in the he is skilled at Legilimens, but that skill is not full 100% all-knowing all-seeing mind reading. We have been told that Voldemort can always tell when people are lying. We have also been told that a Legilimens reader can sense certain thoughts and feelings related to a lie. But again, this seems to be more like an intuitive process than like watching a TV. I have always contended that the Legilimens Spell is not an exact replica of the legilimens process/talent/skill. The Spell creates an uncontrollable cascade of random memories. Take note that I said memories, not thoughts. That's not very helpfull when you are looking for one specific thing. In a sense, you are trusting on dumb luck for what you need to come randomly floating by. Plus, then you have to interpret what you see, and for it to be effective, you have to interpret accurately. I think the process/skill/talent of Legilimency, in all likelihood, allows you to be more selective, to scan for more specific thoughts and feelings, but the trade off is that the information comes in a much more vague and intuitive format. At the same time, don't discount the nature of a true intuitive divination skill, it can be very powerful and accurate, but again, it's not like watching TV. So, in exploiting the mind link, Voldemort certainly, being an older, experience, skilled, and powerful wizard, has an advantage, but he doesn't, in my estimation, have 100% 24 hours all-knowing all-seeing Harry Vision. We have seen Harry 'remote view' events involving Voldemort. We have seen Harry sense Voldemort's real-time feelings when they are very strong. We have seen Voldemort project false images into Harry mind. But we haven't seen Voldemort call up specific information from Harry's mind when ever he feels like it. We have nothing to establish that the link goes that far. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 10:33:43 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:33:43 -0000 Subject: Possible Spoiler: The one who dies in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130157 SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE Snow: ". . . . . For those of you who could not help but take a peek at who has been rumored to die in HBP, you already know then that it has been said to be Dumbledore. At first, remembering that Dumbledore was also rumored to die in OOP, I dismissed it as nothing more than hype. I personally can't see how Dumbledore's death could further the storyline other than Harry loses all his mentors and loved one's, like Job in the bible, and still stays strong in his convictions." Man people are convinced that Dumbledore will die towards the end of this book or in Book 7, not because of any clues, but because it's a common thing in quest literature and it works thematically that Harry must complete his quest alone, without his mentor and protector. The torch will be passed. ("No more training do you need.") The Fawkes idea is interesting. Who will become Fawkes's companion on Dumbledore's death? Who else? It makes you wonder who Fawkes has been with before, since DD is his master for an eyeblink of time. Is it always the Headmaster? Jim Ferer From Snarryfan at aol.com Mon Jun 6 12:26:25 2005 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 12:26:25 -0000 Subject: Snape/McGonagall/Neville (was: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130158 lupinlore wrote: > > Snape applies his methods in such a drastically uneven > > manner. Granted, we haven't really seen him with Ravenclaws and > > Hufflepuffs yet, but he certainly has a reputation for not liking > > Gryffindors and being viciously unfair to them. > Monika: > We practically haven't seen McGonagall with anybody but Gryffindors, > maybe she's not much better than Snape? McGonagall is no saint, > certainly, she's seen as "good" character mostly because Harry likes > her. She criticized other teachers in front of her students (even > more > often than Snape), sent first-years to the Forbidden Forest against > Dumbledore's explicit ban, was known not to bother with hiding > impatience torwards less gifted students of her own house (Pettigrew, > Longbottom) > We know at least one example where a student failed a spell and transform another student into a badger, and we (Harry) heard her screaming at him from the hallways. I don't remember if it's here that someone said Snape wanted to be like McGonagall, only he didn't understand everything. He can see his preference to Slytherin like normal, if in his memories, he saw McGonagall let the Marauders without punishment but not him, or more strict with the Slytherins than with the Gryffindors. But McGonagall is not someone without discipline, so the chance are that when she didn't punish the Marauders, it's was when she had no proof, but when she catched them, the detention was severe, and he realized that. If they escaped punishment from her, it wasn't favoritism, but the lack of proof. And it was he followed them. Because he wanted proofs. It's an attitude he kept now, he didn't told about Quirrel to DD because he only had a feelings, not a proof. I always found strange that Snape had a grudge against all the Gryffindor, even sometimes against DD, but never against McGonagall. I think he saw her like someone just, strict and fair, the incarnation of authority he likes. And he wants to be like that, he thinks he's like that. But he doesn't know the limits. Christelle From nrenka at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 13:05:24 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:05:24 -0000 Subject: Changing the title because I'm tired of it, was "Some won't like it". The Sc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130159 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > Well, actually I don't see it that way. Both Ron and Harry do not > like Snape. They have known Snape for almost five years, so they > have experienced him as a very nast teachter and as the saviour of > Harry's life. They have no reason not to trust Snape, any other > than that he is not a nice person. Hermione even points it out to > Ron: 'How many times have you suspected Snape and when have you > ever been right?' Hermione uses her own experiences of Snape, > together with her faith in DD to come to the conclusion that he is > indeed trustworthy. She does not get her emotions about Snape get > in the way of her evaluation. But you haven't solved my problem fully: Hermione does not *know* that Snape is trustworthy. She has good reasons to, but her ultimate trump card is, of course (to paraphrase: I'm at the library): "If you can't trust Dumbledore who can you trust?" Given that the end of book 5 is Dumbledore's giant mea culpa, does anyone else re-read that statement and shiver ever-so-slightly? [I've never been completely convinced by the "Snape saved Harry's life" argument, but that's another thread.] I've argued elsewhere, back in the Occlumency posts, that teaching something like that requires trust based on a knowledge of someone's character. Harry knows that Snape is capricious towards him; he's overheard Snape's hypocrisy in explaining his own behavior (the line to Fudge--"I try to treat him like any other student"--I don't see any other way than to read that as either overtly hypocritical or massive self-unaware"). So while he may know on an academic level that Snape is trustworthy, that's (philosophically, as well) a very different kind of knowledge than personal experience and evaluation of someone as trustworthy. It's also a different thing to depend upon another person. So, if you can point to those clues in the story that tell us that we may KNOW in all security that Snape is on the side of the angels and should be trusted, I'd love to see them. But that was really never the point. It's much easier to go "oh, trustworthy" from our position outside the text, but much harder from Harry's inside, and even tougher when it comes to working on something delicate and personal as opposed to a more general confidence. -Nora should really keep post numbers for big things From chnc1024 at earthlink.com Mon Jun 6 14:14:40 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.com (Chancie ) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 07:14:40 -0700 Subject: HBP Printing Complete, and possible spoiler Message-ID: <410-22005616141440671@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130160 Hi, I got this bit of info off of Muggle Net this morning, I thought some of you might find it a bit interesting. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Scholastic president of children's book publishing, Barbara Marcus, announced at the previously mentioned BookExpo today that printing of the initial 10.8 million copies is complete. You can read the entire story over at Reuters. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=8699154 The website also included this bit of info... ***S*** ***P*** ***O*** ***I*** ***L*** ***E*** ***R*** ********* SPACE********* (Again, this is from the Reuters.com site) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ She [Barbara Marcus] declined to give away much about the new book, beyond repeating a few snippets that Rowling has already revealed. "There's a new minister of magic, someone dies but it's not Harry or Voldemort, and the half blood prince is not Harry or Voldemort," she said. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I don't guess that's too much of a Spoiler, but I guess it confirms that someone WILL die in HBP. Chancie~ who would like to thank everyone who helped her with her posting problems (finally fixed!!! =D ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 6 14:19:43 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:19:43 -0000 Subject: FILK: Ah, But After Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130161 Ah, But After Death (OOP, Chap. 38) To the tune of Ah, But Underneath, from Sondheim's Follies Dedicated to Pippin A brief excerpt of the song can be heard here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000FDK4/qid=1118067063/sr=2- 2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/002-0004733-8922441 (This song parodies the style of an old vaudeville strip-tease number) THE SCENE: The hallway outside the Charms classroom. SIR NICHOLAS DE MIMSY-PORPINGTON tells HARRY all he knows about the world to come. HARRY: Sirius was not in the mirror He had it not the day he died But suddenly to me it is clearer I've found a more reliable guide. I may learn a post-mortem definition When I consult with Hogwarts apparitions It's my idea to ask Mimsy, Of truth he cannot heedless be. It ought to be a ghost Is who will know the most HARRY & NEARLY HEADLESS NICK He was true-blue, braver than an Auror Ah, but after death He was quite through when he clashed with horror Ah, but after death NEARLY HEADLESS NICK Mister Black, the Grimmauld carrier Got blast across the barrier But that which made me warier To him was far less scarier, the terrier was merrier. Though a Wiz is only a mere mortal Yet he can decide Upon death to choose or not the portal To the other side When I died, I'd soon rejected the secret of the ol' Veil For I dreaded what came after death And I wouldn't dare risk the travail And so I fled finality, the door to immortality And once you become a ghost, you see, you dwell on Earth unendingly Magic can grant `em time as a phantom Though it does scant `em ? pale and poor while none applaud, we Plod through life without a body It's wonderful if we could duly clarify the details But nobody knows what is really there beyond all those Veils He was tough, gruff, great and grand and gracious That was Mister Black Let's avoid the urge to wax loquacious: He ain't coming back He said "Ecch!" to ectoplastic, as he did breathe his last breath, As he stepped out toward the Fantastic - It is here your mind must be elastic, I trust this is not bombastic..... What comes after death? It is.... (SIR NICHOLAS gestures as if he were about to make some astonishing revelation) It is.... (Likewise) It is.... (Likewise) Sadly, we've now hit a wall For ghosts don't know a thing at all. (SIR NICHOLAS vanishes through the wall) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 6 12:43:46 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:43:46 +0100 Subject: Umbridge for Minister? Message-ID: <000301c56a95$62c77f80$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 130162 Recently someone conjectured about Umbridge being Minister, as she was under-secretary to Fudge. Personally, I don't think she'll even be considered. At the end of OotP, it is evident that the WW now knows and, moreover, is convinced that Voldemort has now returned. After Harry was returned to Hogwarts by means of the port key, Dumbledore promised Fudge half an hour during which all would be made clear and he also told Fudge to remove Umbridge from Hogwarts. In Chapter 37 of OotP, Dumbledore clearly tells Harry that he has watched his career closely and, if he was watching the scene from afar when Umbridge was about to attempt the cruciatus curse, he would have told Fudge about this. If Umbridge went about her duties with the attitude 'while the cat's away, the mice will play', I very much doubt the Wizengamot would vote her as Minister. I personally think Amelia Bones would get it. She seemed to question Harry during the hearing with an extremely unbiassed attitude. Derek From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 6 05:36:14 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 05:36:14 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130163 "Renee Daniels" wrote: > In OotP Dumbledore gives the distinct > impression that Snape is the only person > avalible who is proficient in the > technique, but that doesn't make a > whole lot of sence. I got the impression that Occlumency is an extremely difficult skill and Snape is one of the very few wizards who has mastered it. Voldemort can almost always tell if somebody is lying to him, only a person skilled in Occlumency could deceive him; and that's what made Snape such a valuable spy, he was one of the rare breed who could look Voldemort straight in the face and lie without him detecting deception. And that brings up another theory of mine, I think Snape's mission at the end of book 4 was to teach Occlumency to the Death Eaters. Even the most loyal Death Eater would very much want to develop this skill because being able keep things hidden from a boss that powerful and that bad tempered could save your life. I don't think you can learn Occlumency from a book, you need a teacher and Snape is one of the best at it in the world, at least he is if he really wants his student to learn it (I don't think he wanted Harry to learn it). It would be useful if there were plots among the Death Eaters Voldemort could not detect, and Snape could get valuable intelligence information from flashes of memory from their minds during the lessons. Eggplant From k.coble at comcast.net Mon Jun 6 14:45:52 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:45:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130164 On Jun 6, 2005, at 12:36 AM, eggplant107 wrote: > " And that brings up another theory of mine, I think Snape's mission at the end of book 4 was to teach Occlumency to the Death Eaters. Even the most loyal Death Eater would very much want to develop this skill because being able keep things hidden from a boss that powerful and that bad tempered could save your life." K: Good theory, and one I like a lot because it would clarify several things. It does bring to mind a question about how much access Snape has to the DEs. I have always assumed that he is the "one who left [LV] service forever" in the circle at the Graveyard at Little Hangleton. If that is the case, is he being easily welcomed back? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 14:46:40 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:46:40 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it". In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "Renee Daniels" wrote: > > > In OotP Dumbledore gives the distinct > > impression that Snape is the only person > > avalible who is proficient in the > > technique, but that doesn't make a > > whole lot of sence. > > I got the impression that Occlumency is an extremely difficult skill > and Snape is one of the very few wizards who has mastered it. > Voldemort can almost always tell if somebody is lying to him, only a > person skilled in Occlumency could deceive him; and that's what made > Snape such a valuable spy, he was one of the rare breed who could look > Voldemort straight in the face and lie without him detecting deception. > > And that brings up another theory of mine, I think Snape's mission at > the end of book 4 was to teach Occlumency to the Death Eaters. Even > the most loyal Death Eater would very much want to develop this skill > because being able keep things hidden from a boss that powerful and > that bad tempered could save your life. I don't think you can learn > Occlumency from a book, you need a teacher and Snape is one of the > best at it in the world, at least he is if he really wants his student > to learn it (I don't think he wanted Harry to learn it). It would be > useful if there were plots among the Death Eaters Voldemort could not > detect, and Snape could get valuable intelligence information from > flashes of memory from their minds during the lessons. > > Eggplant Harry had no choice but to comply DD's orders, but who would want to give to their fellow DE a free access to their mind? It's like signing one's own death warrant. a_svirn From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 6 14:58:08 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:58:08 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130166 Neri: . Still, I find it very difficult to imagine super-evil Remus who at the age of 16 is capable of cold-blood murder, knows how to use the Imperious or something equivalent, and manages to hide it all from both DD and his friends, *but* can't even device a simple and efficient plan to get rid of Severus, and instead invents this complex plot that involves himself and his friends and naturally fails, not to mention that it could have easily failed much worse than it did. Remus could have been an evil mastermind like Tom, or he could have been a rather stupid and coward kid, but I can't see him being *both*. Pippin: LOL! Don't blame me for the dualities in Lupin's character! I'm not the one who wrote that Lupin was filled with self-disgust over betraying Dumbledore's trust and twenty pages later had him ready to commit cold blooded murder. (Odd that Lupin seems to have so little faith in wizarding justice, seeing as how the Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot at the time was none other than Dumbledore himself. ) How JKR is going to resolve the contradictions in Lupin I can't say. But in my scenario, his evil springs from desperation. Imagine yourself in sixteen year old Lupin's shoes for a moment. For almost as long as you can remember, you have suffered with a horrible disease that subjects you to an excruciatingly painful transformation which turns you into a beast. You will howl and scream for hours as you claw and bite your own flesh. Your one respite from this condition, the only thing that you've ever found that could make it bearable, is about to be taken away from you by a geeky little oddball. There's no help for you...your friends think it is a big joke and have been coming up with ridiculous scenarios all month to evade Snape's vigilance and keep up the visits to Hogsmeade. If you go to the authorities you'll have to admit that you and your friends have been breaking laws and violating trust right and left -- Either way, you and your friends are going to expelled, you'll be *separated* (this would have been the worst to me at 16) Dumbledore, to whom you owe everything, will be disgraced, you'll be living proof that everything they say about werewolves being untrustworthy is true... The days are ticking away, it's almost full moon again...you don't know what you're going to do... And then Padfoot says, "Serve him right if he did find his way in!" And the whole plan leaps into your head at once. Maybe you know how to do the confundus curse (like many sickly children, you have a lot of time to read) or maybe somebody is working on a hotheadedness draught for NEWT potions, and a few drops find their way into Snape's evening pumpkin juice. Of course it's desperate and foolish and too clever by half, but so was going into Hogsmeade and encouraging his friends to become animagi. Pippin From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 6 15:04:49 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:04:49 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Muggle born magical sibs? Message-ID: <42A46611.00000B.03148@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 130167 Turning to those in the know, is Colin Creevey muggle born? I know in CS, US version, page 96, chapter "Gilderoy Lockhart", Colin introduces himself to Harry and says: "I never knew all the odd stuff I could do was magic until I got the letter from Hogwarts. My dad's a milkman, he couldn't believe it either.". Then in GoF, US version, page 174, chapter "The Triwizard Tournament", Colin says: "Harry, guess what? Guess what, Harry? My brother's starting! My brother Dennis!". If Colin is muggle born so would his brother be. Isn't it a bit unusual for sibs from muggle families to be magical? If sibs from muggle families can be magical, isn't it possible for Petunia to be magical, too, but just reject it? We know Petunia knows more about the ww than she lets on. Donna [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 16:07:14 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:07:14 -0000 Subject: Snape the Zen Master/ was Re: Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee Daniels" wrote: Calimora said: consider Harry's state after each lesson. Exhausted, angry, humiliated, his every thought, emotion, experience and secret laid bare to a man he loaths. Tonks: And just think if the person that was with him was LV. He would not be very prepared to face the enemy now would he? Think of the basic training folks in the Army get. It is a place that I would never want to be and I would never survive it because I would tell my commanding officer to go to hell after the first hour. And I know people don't want to see Harry as *drafted*, etc. He's still a kid, yada, yada But like it or not he is in a war and he is the prime objective for LV. I understand that basic training for the Army is rather nasty. They say mean, nasty things to you. You are exhausted, angry, and humiliated on a daily basis. How is Harry's experience any different than that? And for the same reason, he has to be prepared to meet the enemy face to face. And the next time he meets LV face to face he will have to face him alone. No Phoenix to come to his rescue, no DD to show his power, no ghosts from the wand to hold LV off. Harry is going to have to face LV ALONE. LV is a powerful wizard, second only to DD. Harry hasn't got a chance in his present state of being blown by the wind in all directions. LV can do with him as he wills. Harry has no discipline. Harry has been a child playing with LV and the adults around Harry have protected him as DD has watched him grow in the knowledge and strength that will hopefully prepare Harry for the day that is to come. Harry has been is training without realizing it. Now as to the manner in which Snape attempts to teach Harry Occlumency. Snape doesn't give explicit directions as he might in potions class. I think that this is because of the subject. Perhaps this subject is taught in the manner of a Zen Master. Now I don't know a whole lot about Zen and maybe one of our Lurkers can come forward and enlighten us on this in more detail. From what little I know about it, the Zen Master does not give explicit directions either. And the little intriguing saying the Zen Master uses such as "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" are meant to teach the student to stop thinking. For a long time when I heard these saying I would ponder them as an exercise in philosophy. But then I heard that the purpose of these sayings are not for the student to think about and try to figure out the answer. The purpose is to teach the student to be empty. To close his mind to thinking. (I may have this all wrong, so if someone knows this better please come forward and tell us.) I think that a Zen Master sometimes hits his students too. So all in all what I am saying here is that Harry's training in Occlumency probably was attempted in the correct manner. I think Snape is a perfectionist and takes pride in doing whatever he does well. He is probably a good Occlumency teacher, a good Zen Master, but Harry and we the readers just don't *get* it. Tonks_op From sam2sar at charter.net Mon Jun 6 16:38:53 2005 From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:38:53 -0000 Subject: Muggle born magical sibs? In-Reply-To: <42A46611.00000B.03148@D33LDD51> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130169 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: If sibs from muggle families can > be magical, isn't it possible for Petunia to be magical, too, but just > reject it? We know Petunia knows more about the ww than she lets on. > I wouldn't be suprised if Petunia has a little bit of magic or even turned down the opportunity to go to Hogwarts. JK was asked about her in the Edinburgh 2004 interview . It would sure make things interesting wouldn't it? Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? "Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet." From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 16:44:02 2005 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: We are not alone (springboarding from: Snape the Zen Master In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050606164402.8693.qmail@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130170 --- Tonks wrote: [some serious pruning] > I understand that basic training for the Army is > rather nasty. They say mean, nasty things to you. You are exhausted, angry, and humiliated on a daily basis. How is Harry's experience any different than that? And for the same reason, he has to be prepared to meet the enemy face to face. And the next time he meets LV face to face he will have to face him alone. No Phoenix to come to his rescue, no DD to show his power, no ghosts from the wand to hold LV off. Harry is going to have to face LV ALONE. akh: This got me thinking (rather than finishing my "To Do" list). In fact, Harry has NEVER been alone. In each instance, from SS/PS through OOTP, he has been aided by what he perceived to be lucky chances, coincidences, fortuitous arrivals of assistance. Given JKR's own statement that anyone who knew her religious convictions would have an edge in solving the HP mystery, I got to thinking about one of the Christian creeds Protestants recite in church, and it begins, "We are not alone. We live in God's world," and goes on from there. Harry is not alone. He has his friends in PS/SS, his knowledge of the Mirror of Erised and his mother's protection. He has the Sorting Hat, Godric Gryffindor's sword, Fawkes and his unswerving loyalty to Dumbledore. He has Lupin, Hermione, and his skill with Expecto Patronum in POA. His humane treatment of Peter Pettigrew may come to his assistance in the future. He has his wand and the help of the Prior Incantatem figures in GOF. We know his helpers in OOTP. Ultimately, he must vanquish LV himself, but he need not do it alone. akh, who has to go to lunch now, not alone __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Cyrna at europe.de Mon Jun 6 15:01:14 2005 From: Cyrna at europe.de (Danny) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:01:14 +0200 Subject: AW: [HPforGrownups] re: Sorting/Lockhart/Remus/Malfoys/Theo'sMum/TMR'sMum/Petera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c56aa8$99a5d840$0b01a8c0@dannypc> No: HPFGUIDX 130171 Hi there! I try delurking and hope not to get bashed to hard ... My name is Danny, I'm not a native english speaker so please excuse any grammatical errors I won't post that often as I still have a job to maintain *g* (with all that high traffic here) My memory is regrettably not eidetic so I'm not infallible ... but I think I am a person to reason with ... Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130147 >Caput Draconis: http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/38/3814.html ><< 38:14 . The sun, the moon, and all the planets (seem to) move > [...snip...]The 18-year cycles are important both in >astronomy, as they make eclipses possible to predict, and in human >life, as they correspond to the age when individuals are allowed to >marry, manage their own bank accounts, drive cars, etc. [...snip...] I beg to differ with the author, as the border when one comes of age varies with culture and history. In past times one did come of age pretty early. Nowadays you can drive a car with 16 (in the US), open a bank account (admittedly for pocket money) at 12 without any notice of your parents, marry with 16, drink alcohol with 16 (or with 21 depending on the country) ... For the point on JKR using Geomantic names in HP - http://www.accio.org.uk/SPSipal.shtml As she uses also Fortuna Major, Albus and Rubeus. For nice definitions of some of the names in general http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ma.rathfelder/Katy/HarryPotterorigins.htm >Well, Cedric Diggory from Hufflepuff was visibly Brave, and putting >his name in the Goble of Fire strikes me as Ambitious. And Hermione is definitly book-learned (and ambitious if you recall her getting good grades through learning)! >Hey! Of course Remus is the huggiest bunny in the bunch, but he's NOT >a wuss! He was going to help Sirius KILL Peter, knowing they'd both >be sent to Azkaban for it, only because honor demanded vengeance for >James and loyalty demanded sharing the penalty with Sirius. As Elkins >said, he has Edge. I also think Remus is a very nice man ... if you are on his right side ... he is after all a werewolf and lived long enough to know that being nice alone get you nowhere. He likes Harry (and feels for the loss of Harrys parents, his friends) and Harrys friends so he is nice to them. Also I think he takes his responsibility as being teacher very serious and has his teaching methodes opposed to Snape. >Btw WHY did they roll up their sleeves? Most of the >spells I can think of for magically killing someone (e.g. strangling >him with that role that materialized from fingertips and ties people >up) don't involve messy blood! The 'roll up the sleeves' could be psychological - either for boosting their morale/self assurance (lots of people roll up their sleeves when they have a really hard task to accomplish) or the other way round, to intimidate - see we REALLY mean it. >Geoff wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129690 : ><< I wonder sometimes whether the marriage [...snip...] to be really close to >his wife. >> >Or whether Narcissa and Lucius [...snip...] If Draco died, they'd have to start over with another baby. I'd like to think of their marriage as an arranged one . with being THE pureblooded family the Malfoys are (and have been) I think the expectations on Lucius have been equally high as they are on Draco. And a good looking woman from an old and pureblood family as the Blacks (and having the same political believes!) ... and being around the same age as Lucius, I think a father (who likes arranging things) must be hard pressed, NOT to use this opportunity. Wether they are best buddies or not ... I can't really believe it ... The children thing could easily be so. Narcissa can also be annoyed with all the Dark Lord stuff and hope that their son will not be so eager and easily join the Dark Lord when he goes to a school were a known white wizard is headmaster. But in the other side I don't think if Lucius wants something, exspecially for his heir, that Narcissa could overrule him. Maybe he just wants his son to have the best poptions teacher available at school as I don't think every school has a potions master as potions teacher. Draco can get the 'bad indoctrination' from his 'friends' and at home... It has been suggested on-list [...snip...] when would they be MORE frightened and angry than when being pushed through an excessively narrow tube into a cold and unfamiliar world? I agree with that, that would also explain why there are more muggles than wizards. If wizards live as long as they do, there should be more families like the Weasleys -> there should be more wizards. The magical ability can be innate - gets out the first time (maybe or not) at birth (I don't think Neville would've killed his mother at birth), then comes again when the child is more fully aware of its surroundings. >Heather the buzzard wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129816 : ><< As for the whole no-one-knew-he-was-a-half-giant thing, [...snip...] >Then why was it such a big deal when Rita Skeeter published about it? Did they actually live near people? And on the other hand I can imagine, if they were nice and friendly that the local people kept their mouths shut, maybe the were shunned but nobody talked openly. As it is often in small rural communities. So the majority of wizards (as reading the Daily Prophet and mostly not noticed for having an open mind) are shutting off their minds and going berserk... Gerry wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130021 : << We are talking about a higly dangerous membership [...snip...] He has not the necessary level of maturity yet. >> But Sirius does? And Snape? And Mundungus? Not really, but they have a more realistic chance to realise when things get live-threatening, either things they do or say ot things which are happening and are not really in their control. (ehem maybe ...) But really ... to reward the lesson you are learning for your own safety if not sanity with membership in something so vital and secret as the Order? With knowledge maybe but both is like in invitation for LV to lie low. Even if he can't read most things in Harrys mind, these things would be most prominently on Harrys mind the whole time, so not that hard to miss ... Danny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rosered2318 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 15:08:28 2005 From: rosered2318 at yahoo.com (rosered2318) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:08:28 -0000 Subject: My Pet Snape Theory (Long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130172 This is my first post because the list elves told me to. I still feel I am a little inexperienced but....what can you do. Let's leave a little space for people who have the preview option on their messages, in case they consider it a spoiler.... Anyway - my pet Snape theory goes like this. I take it for granted that Snape was DD's informant that Voldy was after the Potters (and I think most everybody else does - please don't bombard me if you don't =). However, this, to me, is not enough reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape....he pulled a turncoat which indicates that he is likely to do it again. Especially considering the countless possible motivations for becoming a spy in the first place. Personally, I am highly skeptical of Snape's actions - I believe he is always on his own side. My first instinct was to believe that Snape became a white hat because he heard the prophecy or at least realized his side was going to lose. But what makes Dumbledore so sure that this time, Snape is rolling with the white hats permanently? It would have to be something pretty big to counteract Snape's most basic character traits. I don't want to argue Snape's motivations for his change of heart because I don't feel we have been left any such clues. But I do think we have been left clues about where Snape fits into the Potter Puzzle - and it is much larger than just telling Dumbledore the Potters were in danger. It ties up some very loose ends with several different puzzles as well... and it goes a little something like this... We learned in OOtP that only the Secret Keeper can grant access to the place of hiding (when Harry reads DD note). In fact, it is such a powerful spell that Harry needed to have the meaning of the note sink in before Grimmauld Place actually materialized in front of him (he looked left at 11, then right at 13, but it didn't appear until Lupin said "Think about what you've just read, Harry."). This has other implications, as well, in that the secret cannot be divulged by someone who already knows it (one of the forward guard could have told him, otherwise). I am also operating under the (rather large) assumption that the only person who can break the spell is someone who already knows the secret. So what does this have to do with that Halloween night? Well, think about it this way...Pettigrew was the only person who could let anybody know where the Potters were. Hagrid delivered baby Harry to his Aunt and Uncle. Ummmm....is it just me or there is a huge non- sequitor here? Somehow the news got out, and only Pettigrew could let people know there was even news to tell. So the question is, who did he run to? Who can he trust? Enter Snape - the only person in the Death Eaters he knows well (and possible knows of) because he spent so much time with the people that tortured him in school. He tells Snape what has happened, then tells Snape the Secret. This is how the white hats know that the Potter's have been attacked and killed, and baby Harry is still alive. How else could they have found out? It wasn't going to be on the news because nobody could see the place! Nobody could find it even if they knew where it was until the secret was told and the information was processed. The only person we are aware of that was in a position to get the Secret told to him was Snape. So now, Snape has a choice. He can act like nothing has happened which is in his own best interest, or he can save baby Harry. Whatever caused his change of heart, he had to be the one to pull baby Harry out of the flaming wreckage because he couldn't tell anyone where Harry was, and anyone else who knew would have no interest in saving him. This would be a pretty big reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape, and answers most of the Halloween night questions nicely. I also don't think Snape is The spy in Voldemort's inner circle. I think he is A spy, but not The spy. But that is for another post... RoseRed From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Mon Jun 6 17:05:58 2005 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:05:58 -0000 Subject: Saving Harry (was:Re: Lupin is Ever So Evil/Explaning Danger to Harry/Prank) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130173 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > >>Alla: > > > > >Besides, yes, indeed Snape did a good deed, but IMO he did > exactly > > what ANY teacher of Hogwarts is supposed to do.< > Betsy Hp: > What's your view of Professor McGonagall and Madam Hooch then I > wonder? Because they did jack diddly squat. Hagrid did nothing > either. > Alla: > I am not sure why is it so surprising that former DE can recognise > Dark curse faster than anybody else in the facility. > Nobody else seemed to understand what happened, especially Hagrid > I think McGonagall and Hooch were in the same situation as Hagrid > was. > So, NO it does not suggest to me that Snape was saving Harry as more > than job requirement. First, Hooch, as an experienced referee, she should have known that someting's fishy. Second, Snape has quite a record of rushing to Harry's and his friends' rescue. Take PoA for example, when Snape couldn't possibly know that Harry will not be hurt by Sirius and Remus (which, in fact, was far from certain till the end) and even if he was hoping for Sirius's arrest/firing Lupin, he certainly didn't wait till they hurt students. On the other hand, McGonagall's record of protecting Harry doesn't go much further than sending him into a dangerous place with a half- squib for protection (PhS). Snape's better. > Besides, let's not forget another very important party in Harry's > rescue - Hermione. I think she should at least share credit with > Snape, won't you agree? Absolutely. Hermione acted on wrong assumptions, but she certainly deserves full credit for trying. So does Snape. So does Harry himself. > > Alla: what if the only positive action of Dumbledore's towards Harry was > that rescue and he otherwise would have been a sadistic bastard like > Snape? > Do you think Harry would still have to respect Dumbledore? Harry had saved himself so often that he may be excused of not valuing much being saved by other people. Either that or he is an ungrateful bastard. When it comes to saving lives, the most important thing is that the lives ARE saved, not whom by. The most beautiful thing about Harry is that he acts like a real teenager. He sticks to his opinions and doesn't give a damn what other people think. He likes Mr Weasley, so it's OK if Arthur breaks the rules he's supposed to enforce. He doesn't like Mr. Malfoy, so it's all so wrong that the man tries to have justice done about his son being wounded. Harry may be wrong. In fact, he quite often is. Monika From nrenka at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 17:01:44 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:01:44 -0000 Subject: Snape the Zen Master/ was Re: Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130174 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: First, let me pimp myself back at 126908 with a projected model for Occlumency, which addresses some things here: > But then I heard that the purpose of these sayings are not for the > student to think about and try to figure out the answer. The > purpose is to teach the student to be empty. To close his mind to > thinking. (I may have this all wrong, so if someone knows this > better please come forward and tell us.) I don't recall Snape offering anything to make one think in that kind of paradoxical manner so beloved by Zen masters. (By the way, the koan of 'one hand clapping' *actually does have an answer*.) My take on "Close your mind", from a lot of personal experience doing things with relaxation, is that it's pretty impossible to do yourself as a beginner without a feedback mechanism. Hitting a student is not feedback; giving them pressure that allows them to feel what they're doing is. Snape never gives any ideas as to how to clear one's mind, which is something that I know personally can be done. It's an essential *component* of the process of learning by doing. A Zen master gives a student something that's very productive to think about and go on. A Zen master also tends not to lose his temper dramatically at the foibles of youth. I don't see any of Snape's statements falling into that category of koan-like, nor do I see his instruction as like that of a meditation master. My experiences only speaking, of course. -Nora could use a little free time to think, herself From riyo at verizon.net Mon Jun 6 15:24:26 2005 From: riyo at verizon.net (riyo at verizon.net) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:24:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost Message-ID: <16955541.1118071467019.JavaMail.root@vms068.mailsrvcs.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130175 Compulsory Predictions: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I'm thinking one of the Weasley boys. Probably Charlie or Bill although it would probably make a better story if it were Percy. What would happen if Percy, after deciding to make peace with his family or decided that they were correct, was killed before telling them his feelings? 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Portrait of Godric Gryffindor? Or maybe another portrait. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was working secretly with Snape (big stretch, I know) and helped Dumbledore make the decision to trust him. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Moody. I just can't see Lupin becoming the DADA instructor because everyone knows his secret. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny. Possibly Luna. It would really surprise me if it were Luna though. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yep. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? I would love for him to take the class just to piss off Snape (although I do love his character). However, I highly doubt he takes it. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Six. Optional Predictions. 1. Harry will be seeker again. 2. Ginny will be chaser 3. Ron and Hermoine will become closer although they will continue to bicker like an old married couple. 4. Molly will lose someone very important to her (I'm betting Percy or Arthur and hope it's not the twins). 5. The Twins will be very important in the fight again Voldemort. I'm guessing their joke shop will be involved in some way. 6. Because of Kreacher, I doubt The Order meetings will be held at Grimmauld Place. They will probably be held at the twins joke shop. 7. If Kreacher doesn't die, he will seek residence with the Malfoys. 8. Petunia is actually a squib and hated Lily for it. 9. Snape is not a vampire. *snerk* 10. Ron will become captain of the Quidditch team. ~~~tiiana From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 6 16:01:30 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:01:30 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130176 "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > to leave Earth with this most impressive > and delightful set of travelling companions, > he chooses to stay. He has formed >'loving bonds' with his adoptive father, > and will voluntarily forget everything > that has happened. The very very worst ending of the Potter series would be for Harry and all other wizards to lose their powers to defeat Voldemort and they become Muggles and even worse they are happy about it. Too many fantasy and science fiction stories end with the object of wonder being destroyed, the alien planet blows up, the incredible creature is killed , the secret to the amazing invention is destroyed, and their exciting adventure is forgotten, so everybody can go back to their safe pedestrian lives. > I do certainly trust her to be at least > as subtle and imaginative, and not plunge > us all into either a Stephen King bout > of violent silliness or a diabetic coma. Don't underestimate Stephen King, he's written some very good stuff, and he's a big Potter fan too. Of course King has written some junk too, his problem is that he writes too much. I hope Rowling has seen the revenge fantasy film "Kill Bill" and takes some inspiration from it, the last Star Wars movie too. We've already seen Harry the angelic little boy, it would be interesting to see him transform into an angel of death. The thing is, if Harry were a real person I'd want him to have a happy life and always do the most moral thing, but as he is a fictional character I don't want that at all; I want him to do the most interesting thing and have the most interesting life. Eggplant From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 6 16:10:17 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 12:10:17 -0400 Subject: Muggle born magical sibs? In-Reply-To: <42A46611.00000B.03148@D33LDD51> References: <42A46611.00000B.03148@D33LDD51> Message-ID: <42A47569.5070007@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130177 Donna wrote: > Then in GoF, US version, page 174, chapter "The > Triwizard Tournament", Colin says: "Harry, guess what? > Guess what, Harry? My brother's starting! My brother > Dennis!". > > If Colin is muggle born so would his brother be. Isn't > it a bit unusual for sibs from muggle families to be > magical? If sibs from muggle families can be magical, > isn't it possible for Petunia to be magical, too, but just > reject it? We know Petunia knows more about the ww than > she lets on. I think it's possible -- if for instance, muggle-born wizards are just random, say 1 in a million births -- then it's highly unlikely for siblings to be magical. Unlikely, but not impossible. Colin and Dennis would be like the lottery-winners. Perhaps there's something important about them, though, that will be revealed later. I mean, they haven't had any major roles yet, they are side characters. Perhaps JKR is just waiting for something, some big reveal about them. :) Perhaps there is also some magic in their family history that they didn't know about. Maybe their grandmother was a witch who was shunned from the WW and decided to live life as a muggle and never told her family. Her children were squibs but then the grandchildren were full-fledged wizards. I'm stretching, perhaps. Heh. But at any rate, I don't think that Colin and Dennis would be any indication that Petunia would have magic too. If she had, then she would have been invited to Hogwarts as well, and canon suggests that she was not. Are there other examples of muggle-born wizards with non-magical siblings? We know that Seamus is half-blood (but is he a prince? heh) but does he have any siblings? Hermione seems to be an only child. Anyone else? heather the buzzard From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 6 16:34:55 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 12:34:55 -0400 Subject: Draco & Hermione (was Re: Draco & Harry - Nature of Friendship) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A47B2F.4010809@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130178 bboyminn: >In the first part of the post I referrenced, I discuss how it >is possible to despise Draco for his actions, but knowing his >backstory, still have sympathy for him. > > > >I suspect that under the best conditions, there will alway be an >element of sadness to Draco's life; whether he sees it or not. This brings to mind an interesting dream last night, which actually led me to some serious speculation. I watched the PoA movie last night -- we only just bought the movies since my son is now reading the books. I hadn't seen it since the theatres, and watching it I was being mindful of how JKR said that there were some interesting insights, some accidental foreshadowing in the movie that was very interesting. I was trying to figure out what it might have been. I did notice Lupin's fondness for Lily, for instance, as well as all the Hermione/Ron interactions. There is of course that cute scene after they've left the shrieking shack where Ron is putting up the brave face about his leg, maintaining that it's injured beyond repair and will have to come off -- seemingly trying to get sympathy from Hermione, who sits with him and soothes him. In my dream, it was not Hermione and Ron, but Hermione and Draco. It was not exactly the same situation, but Draco was injured and Hermione was being kind to him. In my dream, this was a small and unimportant scene in the movie, which I took to be an important foreshadowing of future events. Of course this is all totally speculative, since it's based not only on the movie (which can lead to 'contamination') but on a dream about something that never even happened in the movie! But, it did get me thinking. James was a show-off, a knowitall, a bully, and Lily called him on it. She wouldn't give him the time of day. But later, he settled down a bit, she softened to him, they ended up all right. With the discussions of Draco possibly being redeemed... I'm now envisioning a scene where something bad happens to Draco, something seriously bad. Not like when the Hippogriff attacked him, which was his fault and he totally played it up. Not like the ferret-bouncing, which he also 'earned'. Something that even he did not deserve. His 'friends' (being just as cowardly as he is) abandon him. Hermione at first was going to do nothing, revenge is sweet and all that, but when she sees him abandoned and helpless (actually helpless, not just being drama-queeney), she can't help but do the noble thing. "Here, Malfoy, let me help you". He resists at first, let a filthy mudblood like her touch him?, but acquiesces when he realizes he has no other choice. He's proud, but I doubt that when push came to shove he would rather die than be helped by a 'mudblood.' This could be the beginning of Draco's 'transformation', if indeed that is going to happen. A mudblood shows him kindness -- true kindness, which he has rarely been shown in his life -- when the DE offspring all abandoned him. Hermione sees him at his weakest, maybe he says some things about his past, his sadness and loneliness, and she softens towards him as well. I'm not expecting a H-D pairing out of this, but a change in their relationship. The start of Draco's change of heart, and Hermione's support of him. It would take time, and Harry and Ron would NOT understand at first. They would believe he was faking, that Hermione was being stupid. Draco would go through a lot of soul-searching, back-and-forth, confusion and disillusionment. But eventually, he'd do something noble to help Harry and Ron, who would finally start to see that he was in fact changing. So now I'm wondering if there might be anything in the books foreshadowing anything like this. I think there is precedent in the Lily-James situation, so who knows? Any thoughts? heather the buzzard From lhuntley at fandm.edu Mon Jun 6 17:41:58 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:41:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle born magical sibs? In-Reply-To: <42A47569.5070007@sympatico.ca> References: <42A46611.00000B.03148@D33LDD51> <42A47569.5070007@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <9cb4f98407c30eb6c1c60210e8a0a2f8@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 130179 Donna: >> If Colin is muggle born so would his brother be. Isn't >> it a bit unusual for sibs from muggle families to be >> magical? If sibs from muggle families can be magical, >> isn't it possible for Petunia to be magical, too, but just >> reject it? We know Petunia knows more about the ww than >> she lets on. Heather the Buzzard: > I think it's possible -- if for instance, muggle-born wizards are just > random, say 1 in a million births -- then it's highly unlikely for > siblings to be magical. Unlikely, but not impossible. Colin and > Dennis > would be like the lottery-winners. Perhaps there's something important > about them, though, that will be revealed later. Actually, we know, per JKR's explanation, that magical ability is determined by genes. Now, if magical ability is genetic (even funky-JKR-genetic), then that means that there must be magic genes floating around out there in the general Muggle population, and that any muggleborns are the result of these genes combining in the right way. Therefore, while producing a muggleborn might be rare (two Muggles with the right recessive or inactive genes must bear a child, and that child must get the right combination of genes from its parents), once you already *have* a couple (i.e. Colin's parents) that are capable of producing a magical child, the chances of them producing *another* magical child are actually relatively quite good . Laura (who apologizes for the absolutely convoluted way that was explained and hopes everyone could follow.) From lealess at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 17:39:09 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:39:09 -0000 Subject: Snape's Access In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130180 eggplant107 wrote: "And that brings up another theory of mine, I think Snape's mission at the end of book 4 was to teach Occlumency to the Death Eaters. Even the most loyal Death Eater would very much want to develop this skill because being able keep things hidden from a boss that powerful and that bad tempered could save your life." lealess: What would it take for any of these Death Eaters to turn Snape in, though? They fear Voldemort, and are supposed to be loyal to him. They are also mostly Slytherins, presumably, therefore always looking to their own advantage. What better advantage than turning in someone actively working against the Dark Lord? So, much as I would like this theory to be true, I kinda doubt it. I do think Snape is spying on some of the Death Eaters, which is dangerous enough, as any of them can turn on him should Voldemort's belief that someone left him forever (and should die) become a certainty. lealess From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 17:45:00 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:45:00 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > or maybe somebody > is working on a hotheadedness draught for NEWT potions, and > a few drops find their way into Snape's evening pumpkin juice. > Pippin TK: Let us not forget the Mimbulus mimbletonia! It was introduced in OotP, subtly, so it may play a role in later books. If you wanted a hotheadness potion, some mimbulus given to a normal person might just do it. Cut-paste of previous post (85556) about Mimbulus here: Wild, Wild Western Speculations: I thought I'd heard of a "Mimbulus" before, so I googled it, and there's a "Mimulus" which is native to the US. (I'm from Arizona. It's one of the few pretty flowers without razor-sharp spines. We have aggressive flora and fauna in the desert.) What's more, in the Great Basin area of the US, there's a variety of Mimulus called "Mimulus evanescens." Evans? Is that ever a coincidence? (Yes. Probably.) There's a South American version called Mimulus niaiandinus 'Andean Nymph'. Nymphs? Has Neville snuck a nymph into his bedroom? Here's an odd one: A collary to Jungian archetypal theory is the "Bach Flower Essences" approach to therapy. From weird website: "Archetypal Flower Essences made from plants representing the archetypes....Taking these remedies reminds the soul of the original archetypes within..., so that we can regain our original balanced personality. Archetypal essences in this kit include The Pilgrim; The Warrior; the Magician; The Trickster; The Heroine Within; and The Orphan.... They are not prescribed according to a patient's emotional needs but to his weakest archetypes. If a client is anxious, for example, a Bach flower therapist might prescribe him *Mimulus* [emphasis added] to assist him to find access to his inner courage." Neville's got a courage plant! Look at those other Jungian Archetypes! Eeek! Another Back Flower Essence website: "Mimulus is used as a type remedy for people who tend to be nervous, timid and shy generally. Sometimes people of this type may blush easily or stammer, and they will usually avoid social occasions and any event where they will be in the limelight. Mimulus is the remedy to encourage the quiet courage and strength that lies hidden in such people, so that they can face the everyday trials of life with steadfastness. Dr Bach's description: Fear of worldly things, illness, *pain* [emphasis added], accidents, poverty, of dark, of being alone, of misfortune. The fears of everyday life. These people quietly and secretly bear their dread, they do not freely speak of it to others." Sounds like our Neville, and sounds like our new and improved Neville! TK -- Tigerpatronus From lhuntley at fandm.edu Mon Jun 6 18:15:43 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:15:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape the Zen Master/ was Re: Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130182 Tonks: > And just think if the person that was with him was LV. He would not > be very prepared to face the enemy now would he? Before I really get going, I'd just like to point out that this entire analogy only works IF brow-beating and nastiness is at all an effective way of teaching Occlumency. After all, it's not really Snape's job to toughen Harry up so that he can win a staring contest with the Dark Lord, is it? What he's SUPPOSED to be doing is teaching Harry to use a powerful tool that has a concrete application against Voldy. If he fails at this, and especially if that failure is a direct consequence of the way he went about teaching the subject, then all the toughening in the world isn't going to help Harry shield his mind, and Snape is, IMO, at fault. > Think of the basic training folks in the Army get. It is a place > that I would never want to be and I would never survive it because I > would tell my commanding officer to go to hell after the first hour. > And I know people don't want to see Harry as *drafted*, etc. He's > still a kid, yada, yada? But like it or not he is in a war and he > is the prime objective for LV. > > I understand that basic training for the Army is rather nasty. They > say mean, nasty things to you. You are exhausted, angry, and > humiliated on a daily basis. How is Harry's experience any different > than that? And for the same reason, he has to be prepared to meet > the enemy face to face. And the next time he meets LV face to face > he will have to face him alone. You keep coming back to the solider analogy, which I think is invalid, because Harry *isn't* a solider. Furthermore, he will never *be* a solider -- nor *should* he. In so many ways, the solider mentality (which is what basic training *really* accomplishes) is directly opposed to Harry's natural character. Harry is a hero. He's never going to follow orders without questioning them. He's never going to report to a superior or follow a chain of command. He's never going to allow tactical loss of life for the greater good. He'll never hesitate to put his life in danger to save someone else, even though his own life is by far more important to the war effort. Harry's personality (and from what you said, your own) will *never* allow him to be a good solider. But he's still going to defeat the Dark Lord, and he's going to do it *because* he's a hero (with all of the strengths and weaknesses that go along with it), and not a solider. Is this realistic? Maybe, maybe not. But if I wanted to read a story about soliders, I would read a history book. When I want a story about a hero, I read fantasy. That's just the way it is, and, IMO, the way it should be. > No Phoenix to come to his rescue, no > DD to show his power, no ghosts from the wand to hold LV off. Harry > is going to have to face LV ALONE. I recall two times when Harry has met LV in what amounted to a one-on-one battle of strength. The first is the Priori scene, in which Harry triumphs basically because he is as stubborn as all get out. The second is when he is possessed in the DoM -- and in this case he triumphs because he *loves*. Now, neither of these qualities are things that make good soldier -- in fact, being stubborn and succumbing to emotion are things that soldiers should specifically NOT do. But these ARE the weapons that will allow Harry to defeat LV for good. As Dumbledore says, Harry has a power that Voldemort knows not, and *that's* what's going to make Harry different from all of the countless other Aurors and Order member (i.e. the common fighters -- soldiers) that Voldemort has killed. > LV is a powerful wizard, second > only to DD. Harry hasn't got a chance in his present state of being > blown by the wind in all directions. LV can do with him as he wills. > Harry has no discipline. Harry has been a child playing with LV and > the adults around Harry have protected him as DD has watched him > grow in the knowledge and strength that will hopefully prepare Harry > for the day that is to come. Harry has been is training without > realizing it. Oh, I agree with that. Dumbledore put Harry into training the second he left him on the Dursley's doorstep. Laura (who left the rest of this post to be responded to by someone who has some actual experience with Zen training.) From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Mon Jun 6 18:33:20 2005 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:33:20 -0000 Subject: My Pet Snape Theory (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130183 Hmm, good point. However, it is true that, moments after the Potters were attacked, everybody seemed to know that LV is gone. Much as I like your theory (I'm a partisan Snape's fan) I'm afraid that these particular event doesn't prove anything about Snape, except perhaps that he's inteligent and fast-thinking, which we knew already. Though you can say that Snape joined the "white hats" because he was ancious about baby Harry, one can argue that he heard about Voldemort's death and got cold feet. No, I rather stand by what Dumbledore said, that Snape became a spy long before LV fell, and was spying for the good guys "at great personal risk". Ah, and by the way - although spying does not seem to be a gentlemanly thing, and I can quite see why people don't trust anybody who'd changed colours, I still prefer a sneaky spy to a splendid Auror who went around torturing and murdering *suspects* after Crouch allowed such behaviour. Monika --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rosered2318" wrote: > This is my first post because the list elves told me to. I still > feel I am a little inexperienced but....what can you do. Let's leave > a little space for people who have the preview option on their > messages, in case they consider it a spoiler.... > > > > > Anyway - my pet Snape theory goes like this. I take it for granted > that Snape was DD's informant that Voldy was after the Potters (and I > think most everybody else does - please don't bombard me if you don't > =). However, this, to me, is not enough reason for Dumbledore to > trust Snape....he pulled a turncoat which indicates that he is likely > to do it again. Especially considering the countless possible > motivations for becoming a spy in the first place. Personally, I am > highly skeptical of Snape's actions - I believe he is always on his > own side. My first instinct was to believe that Snape became a white > hat because he heard the prophecy or at least realized his side was > going to lose. But what makes Dumbledore so sure that this time, > Snape is rolling with the white hats permanently? It would have to > be something pretty big to counteract Snape's most basic character > traits. > > > I don't want to argue Snape's motivations for his change of heart > because I don't feel we have been left any such clues. But I do > think we have been left clues about where Snape fits into the Potter > Puzzle - and it is much larger than just telling Dumbledore the > Potters were in danger. It ties up some very loose ends with several > different puzzles as well... and it goes a little something like > this... > > We learned in OOtP that only the Secret Keeper can grant access to > the place of hiding (when Harry reads DD note). In fact, it is such > a powerful spell that Harry needed to have the meaning of the note > sink in before Grimmauld Place actually materialized in front of him > (he looked left at 11, then right at 13, but it didn't appear until > Lupin said "Think about what you've just read, Harry."). This has > other implications, as well, in that the secret cannot be divulged by > someone who already knows it (one of the forward guard could have > told him, otherwise). I am also operating under the (rather large) > assumption that the only person who can break the spell is someone > who already knows the secret. > > So what does this have to do with that Halloween night? Well, think > about it this way...Pettigrew was the only person who could let > anybody know where the Potters were. Hagrid delivered baby Harry to > his Aunt and Uncle. Ummmm....is it just me or there is a huge non- > sequitor here? Somehow the news got out, and only Pettigrew could > let people know there was even news to tell. So the question is, who > did he run to? Who can he trust? Enter Snape - the only person in > the Death Eaters he knows well (and possible knows of) because he > spent so much time with the people that tortured him in school. He > tells Snape what has happened, then tells Snape the Secret. > > This is how the white hats know that the Potter's have been attacked > and killed, and baby Harry is still alive. How else could they have > found out? It wasn't going to be on the news because nobody could > see the place! Nobody could find it even if they knew where it was > until the secret was told and the information was processed. The > only person we are aware of that was in a position to get the Secret > told to him was Snape. > > So now, Snape has a choice. He can act like nothing has happened > which is in his own best interest, or he can save baby Harry. > Whatever caused his change of heart, he had to be the one to pull > baby Harry out of the flaming wreckage because he couldn't tell > anyone where Harry was, and anyone else who knew would have no > interest in saving him. This would be a pretty big reason for > Dumbledore to trust Snape, and answers most of the Halloween night > questions nicely. > > I also don't think Snape is The spy in Voldemort's inner circle. I > think he is A spy, but not The spy. But that is for another post... > > RoseRed From lhuntley at fandm.edu Mon Jun 6 18:34:49 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:34:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Some won't like it". The Scar Connection Implications. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130184 I'm sorry that this is rather late . . . I actually wrote it on Friday, but I didn't have internet access over the weekend, so . . . Steve: >> The question isn't whether or not Harry knows that Voldemort is a >> badass, because nobody knows it better than Harry. Betsy HP: > Does he? I thought that was part of the problem throughout OotP. > Harry *never* fully grasps just how bad Voldemort is. He thinks he > can take him. He thinks he's taken him before. Except Harry has > never really taken Voldemort. He's been damned lucky, and it's > unfortunately led Harry to become far too cocky. You're right that Harry's been damn lucky. In fact, he says as much in the American Edition of Ootp, pg. 327: *** "Listen to me!" said Harry, almost angrily, because ROn and Hermione were both smirking now. "Just listen to me, alright? It sounds great when you say it like that, but that stuff was luck -- I didn't know what I was doing half the time, I didn't plan any of it, I just did whatever I could thank of, and I nearly always had help --" *** This is in response to Hermione's suggestion that he form the DA, after both she and Ron start listing off all the things Harry has done. A little bit later he goes on (pg, 328): *** "[. . .] and you two sit there acting like I'm a clever little boy to be standing here, alive, like Diggory was stupid, like he messed up -- you just don't get it, that could just as easily have been me, it would have been if Voldemort hadn't needed me --" *** I really don't see why so many people try to argue that Harry is getting too cocky with regard to LV, or that he doesn't take him seriously. Harry *knows* the man is deadly, he *knows* he's only survived by luck so far. The fact that, despite this knowledge, Harry is still willing to fight, still willing to defy the Dark Lord, is what makes him special -- what makes him a *hero*, at least in my book. > IMO of course. > (Though to give Harry the benefit of the doubt, I think his > belief that he's successfully taken Voldemort is one of the few > things helping him sleep at night.) But he's *not* sleeping at night, is he? He's plagued (especially in the summer, before the corridor dreams take center stage) by horrible nightmares about the graveyard resurrection and Cedric's death. Honestly, I don't think anyone takes LV more seriously than Harry. Laura From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 6 18:08:21 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:08:21 -0400 Subject: Muggle born magical sibs? In-Reply-To: <9cb4f98407c30eb6c1c60210e8a0a2f8@fandm.edu> References: <42A46611.00000B.03148@D33LDD51> <42A47569.5070007@sympatico.ca> <9cb4f98407c30eb6c1c60210e8a0a2f8@fandm.edu> Message-ID: <42A49115.2020709@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130185 Heather the Buzzard: >>I think it's possible -- if for instance, muggle-born wizards are just >>random, say 1 in a million births -- then it's highly unlikely for >>siblings to be magical. Unlikely, but not impossible. Colin and >>Dennis >>would be like the lottery-winners. Perhaps there's something important >>about them, though, that will be revealed later. >> >> Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote: > >Actually, we know, per JKR's explanation, that magical ability is >determined by genes. Now, if magical ability is genetic (even >funky-JKR-genetic), then that means that there must be magic genes >floating around out there in the general Muggle population, and that >any muggleborns are the result of these genes combining in the right >way. Therefore, while producing a muggleborn might be rare (two >Muggles with the right recessive or inactive genes must bear a child, >and that child must get the right combination of genes from its >parents), once you already *have* a couple (i.e. Colin's parents) that >are capable of producing a magical child, the chances of them producing >*another* magical child are actually relatively quite good . > > Yes, I see what you mean. I hadn't been aware that JKR had invoked genetics, but I guess it does make sense. :) Mea culpa! Back to the issue of Petunia though... if she *did* have some magic ability, then what happened to it? Her complaints about Lily were that her parents adored having a witch in the family, they were so proud of her. It seems, to me anyway, that her primary dislike of Lily was the favouritism rather than the magic itself -- she grew to hate the magic because of the favouritism, rather than the other way around. If she did have any magic herself, she would have been invited to Hogwarts, and we still have no evidence of that. People have speculated that she might have 'refused' the invitation, but that would only be possible if she originally hated magic -- which, as stated above, I don't agree with, myself. If her primary motivation was love-and-acceptance-from-parents, she would have gone in order to be like Lily. Hang on now. Do we know who the elder sister is? If Petunia were the elder, and had refused the invitation (maybe thinking her parents wouldn't approve), and THEN Lily had accepted and gotten all the positive response from the parents, Petunia could be kicking herself for having decided wrong and then gone all 'sour grapes'. I don't think we know their relative ages, do we? Only that they bore children around the same time so they're not too far off in age. The fly in this ointment is -- if Petunia had been offered a place at Hogwarts, then some of the long-term staff would know about it... and would probably have mentioned it to Harry at some point. Back in the first chapter of PS McGonagle complains about those muggles... wouldn't she be likely to know if there was more to Petunia? Of course, there IS more to Petunia, something that does have to do with the WW. She knows more about it than she cares to admit (viz. her knowledge of Dementors) and she has some sort of pact with Dumbledore. I wonder if it's something like Hermione and Rita Skeeter -- Dumbledore knows something that she did and is keeping quiet while she protects Harry. I think it's something more than that though. She was so shamefaced and stunned and quieted at receiving DD's Howler. I still don't think she's magic. And she's not a squib by definition -- she would have to have magical parents for that. But there's some mystery about her. Gosh darn it! heather the buzzard From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Jun 6 19:33:37 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 19:33:37 -0000 Subject: Snape the Zen Master/ was Re: Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > > I don't recall Snape offering anything to make one think in that kind > of paradoxical manner so beloved by Zen masters. (By the way, the > koan of 'one hand clapping' *actually does have an answer*.) My take > on "Close your mind", from a lot of personal experience doing things > with relaxation, is that it's pretty impossible to do yourself as a > beginner without a feedback mechanism. Let's see, a Snape Koan. How about "What is the sound of one moron snarking?" I actually discussed this very subject recently with a Buddhist monk I know. He's in the Theravadin tradition but his Sangha uses a lot of Zen meditation practices. He's also a big Harry Potter fan. He said of the whole Occlumency scene that he found it all very silly. The two instructions Snape gave, "Clear your mind" and "Master yourself" were essentially worthless. The first (once again in his belief) takes years to learn how to do effectively, and the second takes ten thousand lifetimes. > > Hitting a student is not feedback; giving them pressure that allows > them to feel what they're doing is. Snape never gives any ideas as > to how to clear one's mind, which is something that I know personally > can be done. It's an essential *component* of the process of > learning by doing. I don't know if my friend's Sangha uses hitting or insults. I've never seen such, but perhaps it goes on there when I'm not around. My friend has said, in other contexts not having to do with Harry Potter, that he has found most accomplished meditation masters to be jolly, jovial sorts. But that is hearsay, so take it as such. > A Zen master gives a student something that's very productive to > think about and go on. A Zen master also tends not to lose his > temper dramatically at the foibles of youth. I don't see any of > Snape's statements falling into that category of koan-like, nor do I > see his instruction as like that of a meditation master. > Well, my friend said about Snape, "A wounded bird cannot teach anyone to fly." Now, I should say he loves to do a Kwai-chang Cain act -- he finds it vastly amusing to watch people's reactions. So take that for what it's worth. Lupinlore From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 20:15:30 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:15:30 -0000 Subject: Muggle born magical sibs? Genetics and Social Order In-Reply-To: <9cb4f98407c30eb6c1c60210e8a0a2f8@fandm.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote: > Donna: > >> If Colin is muggle born so would his brother be. Isn't > >> it a bit unusual for sibs from muggle families to be > >> magical? If sibs from muggle families can be magical, > >> isn't it possible for Petunia to be magical, too, but just > >> reject it? We know Petunia knows more about the ww than > >> she lets on. > > Heather the Buzzard: > > ... if ..., muggle-born wizards are just random, say 1 in a > > million births -- then it's highly unlikely for siblings to be > > magical. Unlikely, but not impossible. ... Perhaps there's > > something important about them, though, that will be revealed > > later. > Laura: > > ...per JKR's explanation, that magical ability is determined by > genes. Now, if magical ability is genetic (...), then that means > that there must be magic genes floating around... in the ... Muggle > population, and that any muggleborns are the result of these genes > combining in the right way. Therefore, while producing a muggleborn > might be rare (...), once you already *have* a couple (i.e. Colin's > parents) that are capable of producing a magical child, the chances > of them producing *another* magical child are actually relatively > quite good . > > Laura bboyminn: I'll add a lot of words, although I'm not sure if I'll add too much new information. I look at magical ability as a form of genius. Families of extreme genius tend to produce kids with genius capability. Of course, we can't deny the environment aspect, children of geniuses tend to grow up in an environment that nurtures genuis, but that is more about genius realized then about the existance of genius potential. I knew someone who was a member of Mensa, a social club for geniuses, and she pointed out in response to our assumption that all geniuses were stunningly successful, that one of the members with an outstanding IQ was content to spend his life as a dishwasher in a bar and the rest of his time collecting comic books. More on this later. So, intelligent people tend to product intelligent kids. Every now and then two generally intelligent people produce a child of extreme intelligence; genius. Re-enforcing Laura's point, once this couple produces a genius, they have pretty much verified that they have the genetic combination that brings that potential forward, and increase the likelihood of it happening again. Collin's parent in a sense have verified they have the combination of genes that can product magical genius, and therefore have in increased potential for it to happen again, hence Dennis. In some ways magic genius is like intellectual genius, in that it's either there or not. JKR has said that there is no such thing as slightly magic or almost magic; you either are or you aren't. But once you cross the threshold into genius/magic, they is a range of power in magic just as there is in genius. My point is that unlike general intelligence which is always there, magical genius is either ON or OFF, but once it on, it manifest itself in a range of power levels and specific talents. Now on a point made by Heather-the Buzzard... "Back to the issue of Petunia though... if she *did* have some magic ability, then what happened to it? ..." As I pointed out above, the presence of genius doesn't always mean the manifestation of genius. If we except the premise of Petunia as magical, we must realize that she is now an adult and completely untrained in magic. Further, given her restrained manner and that she is an adult, she is unlikely to /do/ magic except in the most exceptionally extreme circumstance. Heather again: "People have speculated that she might have 'refused' the invitation (to Hogwarts), but that would only be possible if she originally hated magic..." I don't think it's question of Petunia hating magic at the time she received her (hypothetical) invitation to Hogwart. It's a question of her loving social propriety and fear of being different. Prim and proper Petunia would never do anything as unsavory as go to a school for witches, I mean, afterall, what would the neighbors think? Further, since she places so much value on social propriety, she would think that she was doing the right thing, that she was making the choice that her parents, her peers, and her society would approve of. She is one of those middle class people who lives by the subconscious credo 'That which does not validate me is not valid'. Schools for witches would not validate Petunia's preconceived image of proper social order, and therefore she would reject it as invalid. The hating of magic would come in when Petunia saw how much praise and attention Lily got for doing what Petunia deemed to be improper. Again, 'that which does not validate me is not valid'. In Petunia's middle class mind, the praise and attention Lily was getting did not fit Petunia's model of social order, since it doesn't validate her, then it must not be valid, and therefore is a horrible terrible voilation that must be despised and hated. This concept of 'validation' or lack there of, is responsible for a lot of ill-will, hate, and conflict in the world. Final note; I'm in that camp that believes that Petunia indeed did turn down her own inviation to Hogwarts. Just a few observations. Steve/bboyminn From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 6 20:39:39 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:39:39 -0700 Subject: wizard family planning Message-ID: <410-22005616203938984@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130188 OK, granted this question is coming from WAY out in left field, but I was wondering, is there any cannon on having babies in the WW? What I mean is, there any "Maternity Ward" in St. Mungo's? Do they use birth control? What happens if a couple is infertile? How would they deal with an unplanned pregnancy, are there adoptions? The reason I was wondering, is because there seem to be many different types of families in the WW. The Weasley's have 7 kids, the Malfoy's 1, and Tom Riddle/Voldy had to go to a Muggle orphanage, where there no Wizards/ Witches willing to take him in? I've read the books a few times, and can't remember finding anything on this, so if you have no decisive bit of cannon to offer, any educated guesses?? Chancie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 21:05:32 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 21:05:32 -0000 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <19b.355b3d6e.2fd60eed@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130190 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Schlobin at a... wrote: > > Brussels > Potter insult to Dutch PM > By Gilles Castonguay > June 7, 2005 > BELGIUM has apologised to the Dutch prime minister after its foreign > minister compared him to Harry Potter, the boy wizard. >...edited... > > Susan McGee > ### Orchard St., > Eureka, XX ###03 > ###-441-1434 (voice) > ###-616-7898 (cell) bboyminn: Here is the part I don't get, what was the insult. If I read your article correctly, the person in question has even compared himself to Harry Potter. So, I don't understand the media's outrage or see why it required an apology. I suspect if we get to deep into this subject, we'll have to move the the 'Off-Topic' group. Also, is suspect your FULL name and address in your post was because to have a signature attached to your emails. I would suggest changing that. It's extremely unwise to display that very personal information in a general public forum. You never know, I might not only be a Harry Potter fan, but also a completely deranged pscho stalker axe murderer; although I can assure you, I'm not. Steve/bboyminn From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 6 21:37:22 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 21:37:22 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > Geoff: > The series doesn't have to end in a lovefest or with gratuitous > violence which I always see as a copout anyway. I do not believe that > the books will not end with a saccharin-riding-off-into-the-sunset- with- > swelling-music end. > > Deborah: > > I really hope Geoff's wrong ... and I don't prefer the > gratuitous-violence ending either; just want a middle way! Geoff: Deborah's quote came from my message 129988 but I think that it may have been overlooked that in message 129997 I published a correction when I said that the "not" in the second sentence should not have been there and the correct reading was: "I do not believe that the books will end with a saccharin-riding-off- into-the-sunset-with-swelling-music end. In other words, I think we agree on our hopes for the ending. From grega126 at aol.com Mon Jun 6 21:53:19 2005 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 21:53:19 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "niekycrins" wrote: > > > why would this room, containing a force that is needed > > to conquer VM, be closed and apparently protected? > > Why not "unleash" it on LV while he was in the DOM? > > I hope it's more than just love, otherwise the story could get so > sweet we'd all get diabetes. Love probably has something to do with > it but there must be something more than that because Dumbledore says > it is not only more wonderful than death it is more terrible too. > Perhaps courage and skill and sacrifice and "old magic" and something > else that's hard to put a finger on; I guess you could say the room > contains The Right Stuff. So why is it locked? I don't think the > wizards locked it and are in fact trying to unlock it but without > success. I think in book 7 Harry will find a way to unlock it, > something even Dumbledore couldn't do. He knows that opening the door > is the only way to destroy Voldemort but Harry also knows that if he > does so he will die too; remember that powerful "old magic" involves > sacrifice. I predict that in the second to last chapter of book 7 > entitled "The Man Who Died", the one just before epilog where the > adult lives of the surviving characters are described, he opens that > door and Harry Potter is no more. > > Eggplant Just for anyone reading the thread, this isn't exactly on the thread's original topic so much as a reply to this individual post. The Harry Potter series is currently on track to be an all-time classic, destined to be read by all future generations. If Harry, Ron or Hermione dies at the end of book 7 (or any point in between) the peole who bought it and have been reading the whole series will read it, and that will be the end of Harry Potter. What parent wants to sit down with their 8 year old, and read over 2,500 pages of book about a hero who dies at the end? In order for this book to entire the list of all time classics, good has to triumph over evil. That means Harry has to beat Voldemort, not "tie" him by dying with him. Dumbledore giving his life for Voldemort's would be one thing. Dumbledore's lived a long and full life. Harry's just going to be 17. If Harry, Ron or Hermione dies, I'll throw my 7 books away and never look at anything Harry Potter ever again. If good wins, I'll read them to my kids one day. JKR has to know that. From brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org Mon Jun 6 20:49:39 2005 From: brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org (Wilson, Bruce) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:49:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] wizard family planning Message-ID: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B082720@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> No: HPFGUIDX 130193 Chancie: > OK, granted this question is coming from WAY out in left field, > but I was wondering, is there any cannon on having babies in > the WW? That's an interesting question; I can't remember anything 'canon' on this, but then it is primarily a children's series. I can't remember anything about one of the female teachers taking the girls aside for THE TALK, or female students going to Mme. P. for--er--supplies. How do hormones work on magical abilities? The fact that wizardling children aren't given serious instruction until adolescence indicates that perhaps they do. Do a witch's spells go awry more often during THAT TIME OF THE MONTH? Do pregnant witches avoid major spellcastings? Bruce From kking0731 at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 22:21:34 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:21:34 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130194 Pippin Snipped: Imagine yourself in sixteen year old Lupin's shoes for a moment. For almost as long as you can remember, you have suffered with a horrible disease that subjects you to an excruciatingly painful transformation which turns you into a beast. You will howl and scream for hours as you claw and bite your own flesh. Your one respite from this condition, the only thing that you've ever found that could make it bearable, is about to be taken away from you by a geeky little oddball. There's no help for you...your friends think it is a big joke and have been coming up with ridiculous scenarios all month to evade Snape's vigilance and keep up the visits to Hogsmeade. Snow: Yes, it is always best if you can visualize a given situation from someone else's viewpoint and place yourself in their shoes to get the best overall portrayal. This sounds very similar to the Pencieve where thoughts are examined from each individual's point of view that you are interested in. (Example: When Harry was seated next to Dumbledore and Moody in the Pencieve, he saw the courtroom view from their perspective however, if Harry had been sitting next to Rita Skeeter, Harry would have been enlightened by her own views and comments.) I created, some time ago, the following scenario, that doesn't seem to be too far off from your own, attempting to use this same type of formula; looking at the picture from each person's viewpoint. I nicknamed this little scenario The Prank and the Pencieve: The Marauders, at least James and Sirius, appear to be portrayed as very caring and protective of their small group of friends; especially the handicapped Lupin. James and Sirius, not as much Peter who was not in it for friendship but protection, were capable of various sorts of actions to look out for their challenged friend as well as the little dweeb they underestimated even to the point of becoming unregistered animagus. James and Sirius went to great lengths ["it took the best part of three years to work out how to do it" POA pg.354] to become animagi and to include the chubby little wannabe ["Peter needed all the help he could get from James and Sirius" POA pg. 354] all for the sake of Lupin's well being. Oh what nights they had, especially during the full moon. No one was the wiser of where the gang went or what any of them could become. They were unstoppable until Snape took to spying on them. [" Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to hoping he could get us expelled " POA pg. 356] Snape could ruin all their fun if he exposed Lupin to be a werewolf. Something had to be done about this. It was becoming increasingly clear that the Marauders good old days were numbered. Fast forward to the Pencieve scene by the lake, which was the very end of the Marauder's fifth year having just taken their OWL exams. The Marauders had only just managed their transformations in their fifth year. [" Finally, in our fifth year, they managed it. They could each turn into a different animal at will" POA pg. 354] Snape's spying/stalking behavior was evidenced when he followed the Marauders down by the lake in the Pencieve memory. Snape followed the Marauders hoping to find out about their dirty dealings as to get them expelled. Snape did not seat himself in normal earshot range from the Marauders but if Snape had any extraordinary powers that may be lent him due to the old Vampire/Snape suspicions, let's say impeccable hearing, then this would be close enough to listen in. (Or, for those who don't like the Vampire/Snape theory, could Snape have possibly had a pair of Fred and George's extendable ears) Snape wouldn't have to be extremely close to catch a conversation or even a set-up conversation: {Imagine Sirius in a fake discussion with Wormtail} you know all you have to do to get that Willow to stay still is prod the knot on the tree with a long stick, but we both know what you'll find if you do. (After all if Snape wants to spy you may as well feed him useful information that would benefit yourself) I personally see young Lupin sitting on the bank-side staring at his book, all the while engrossed in the confrontation that ensued between Sirius, James and Snape, knowing that he had recently informed (whined to) the Gang that Snape was coming very near the truth about his werewolf transformations and that it would severely impede their time and outings together every month if Snape were to make public who and what he had become. Sirius, after all the efforts he and his colleagues had made to become animagi for Lupin's protection and all the fun that they had had on their outings to make Lupin feel "normal", felt extremely annoyed by greasy Snape's interference to put an end to all their hard efforts. Try as they may the Marauders jinxing and humiliation did not deter Snape from his quest. So, Sirius thought of a better way to deal with Snape's interference. I don't think that Lupin knew what Sirius had up his sleeve in resolving the problem with Snape but Lupin must have felt appreciative over the many attempts his friends made on his behalf to stop Snape from his harassing behavior as is viewed by Lupin's neglect at intervening when they attacked Snape at the lake. Sirius took it upon `himself' to ensure that Snape would stop his spying behavior, via the prank setup. Snape would surely stop this ridiculous behavior, and the Marauders could once again enjoy their monthly escapades, if Snape was sufficiently frightened, he would discontinue his antics. Now, at some point in time, very near Snape's entry to the Willow, James had been enlightened by Sirius, in-between his bark like laughing fits, of his newfound resolution to the problem with their monthly outings. James, not being as desperate as Sirius to ensure the outings to the point of endangering someone's life, took it upon `himself' to do the right thing (very much like his son) and saved `the enemy' (think Dudley or better yet Pettigrew). James didn't hesitate to proceed to the Willow possibly realizing the repercussions for Lupin if the deed would have been done. Lupin may have felt some rejection to James life saving pursuit, and very much offended that James would think more of Snape than of himself and their time together. Lupin may have seen this as a rejection of their friendship on James' part after all Sirius was up for it in Lupin's mind. Lupin wouldn't have cared, or thought, of the consequences himself, about the prank, anymore than Sirius as to what may have happened if the werewolf would have gotten the best of Snape. Lupin said that his friends becoming animagus were " the best times of my life" (POA pg. 354) and he didn't want to give that up did he? And Snape wasn't going to stop the best time of Lupin's life if his friends had any say in it. Trouble was one of his friends didn't back him up and ruined a good plan to stop Snape, which would have allowed Lupin's glory days (or rather nights) to continue. This incident could have caused quite a rift between the old gang. I can imagine both Lupin and Sirius being a bit upset at James response in saving old Sevey, at least at first. James would have informed them of the downside of the prank's proposed resolution to Snape's spying afterwards. No matter how you look at it though, after the prank, the Marauder's monthly outings would have come to a complete halt because Snape did know at this point what Lupin became each month and it would have been very easy for Snape to be on top of his spying game. Of course Snape was forbidden by Dumbledore to reveal Lupin's secret but it would not have stopped him from following the Marauders each night at the full moon. All good things must come to an end and so it did. Usual disclaimer, JMO Snow From k.coble at comcast.net Mon Jun 6 22:23:01 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:23:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] wizard family planning In-Reply-To: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B082720@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> References: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B082720@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> Message-ID: <528ac4be22d8fcfcfb1874a01fa7abfa@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130195 On Jun 6, 2005, at 3:49 PM, Wilson, Bruce wrote: > Chancie: > > OK, granted this question is coming from WAY out in left field, > > but I was wondering, is there any cannon on having babies in > > the WW? > > that perhaps they do.? Do a witch's spells go awry more often during > THAT TIME OF THE MONTH?? Do pregnant witches avoid major > spellcastings? > > K: Okay. I'm gonna so resist the urge to just absolutely lose it. Because you know, in the Muggle world, we women are quite obviously not able to completely function up to par during our periods, and we really shouldn't work at our jobs during our pregnancies. Right? Right? All that aside, I have always felt that the reproductive issue plays into my theory about the sociopolitical influence of British politics in the series. The Weasleys with their 7 children are so abhorred by the "right-thinking" Purebloods, most of whom seem to have 1 or 2 children, extrapolating from the fact that we only know of 1 Malfoy, 1 Crabbe, 1 Goyle, etc. Most the world over, the larger families tend to be Catholic, whereas those whose beliefs differ have fewer children. I've always thought that the Weasleys, with their red hair and large brood are the allegorical Catholics of the stories, much maligned by the Norman Aristocracy. Katherine [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 22:24:31 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:24:31 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130196 >>Nora: >A Zen master gives a student something that's very productive to think about and go on.< >>Lupinlore: >I actually discussed this very subject recently with a Buddhist monk I know. >He said of the whole Occlumency scene that he found it all very silly. The two instructions Snape gave, "Clear your mind" and "Master yourself" were essentially worthless. The first (once again in his belief) takes years to learn how to do effectively, and the second takes ten thousand lifetimes.< Betsy Hp: Honestly, I think we're looking in the wrong direction if we compare Occlumency with Zen or the ilk. I remember reading a review that compared the magic of the Harry Potter world to the magic of the imagination. I think that's a more proper direction to look. Because from the very beginning we are told that the magic of the WW works because the wizard or witch *believes* it will work. Remember what Molly first tells Harry when he's trying to get onto Platform 9 3/4 : "All you have to do is walk straight at the barrier between platforms nine and ten. Don't stop and don't be scared you'll crash into it, that's very important. Best do it at a bit of a run if you're nervous." (SS paperback p.93) She specifically tells Harry that it's "very important" that he not believe he's going to crash into the barrier. Harry even closes his eyes so he won't see himself crash. Now, there may be some Zen-like aspects to the idea that believing something allows you to do it (I know nothing about Zen), but I don't think that was the thrust of JKR's vision regarding the magic of the WW. In order to enter the WW Harry has to *believe* in magic, otherwise the magic doesn't work. I think this idea is more in line with Peter Pan's lessons in flying than in any real world meditation techniques. So I think that best way to measure the efficacy of Snape's methods for teaching Occlumency is to compare them with Lupin's methods for teaching the Patronus. That way we're staying within the world JKR has created and the rules she has given us. If we take a look at the instructions Lupin gave Harry for the Patronus lessons we'll see that Lupin doesn't give Harry any good advice as far as *how* to produce the mental state that allows one to conjure a Patronus. The first direction comes after Harry asks how to conjure a Patronus. "With an incantation, which will work only if you are concentrating, with all your might, on a single, very happy memory." (PoA scholastic hardback p.237) After Harry tries and fails, Lupin gives more advice. "You might want to select another memory, a happy memory, I mean, to concentrate on.... That one doesn't seem to have been strong enough...." (ibid p.239) Again Harry fails, and Lupin gives further instruction: "Ready?" [...] "Concentrating hard? All right -- go!" (ibid p.241) In the end, Harry doesn't produce a really strong Patronus against the boggart dementor. He does produce something against the Draco! Dementor, but Lupin quickly tells him that it only worked *because* he wasn't going up against a real dementor [ibid p.263]. Which holds true. Harry fails when he first goes up against real dementors. [ibid p.383] The only reason Harry *does* finally produce a Patronus is because of the paradox of time travel. "I knew I could do it this time," said Harry, "because I'd already done it.... Does that make sense?" (ibid p.412) Now lets compare Lupin's lessons with Snape's. There are some obvious differences in that whereas before Harry was the eager student and Lupin the reluctant teacher, Harry is now quite a reluctant student. (I'm hard pressed to figure out Snape's mindset here. He says he's not that eager to teach Harry, but he certainly doesn't try and talk Harry out of learning, as Lupin does several times.) Here's Snape's first actual instructions: "You may use your wand to attempt to disarm me, or defend yourself in any other way you can think of," said Snape [...] "I am about to attempt to break into your mind," said Snape softly. "We are going to see how well you resist. I have been told that you have shown aptitude at resisting the Imperius Curse.... You will find that similar powers are needed for this.... Brace yourself, now.... Legilimens!" (OotP scholastic hardback p.534) Harry fails in his first attempt and Snape gives further instruction. "You let me get in too far. You lost control." [...] "You managed to stop me eventually, though you wasted time and energy shouting. You must remain focused. Repel me with your brain and you will not need to resort to your wand." (ibid p.535) Harry asks for more instruction on (I assume) repelling Snape with his brain. "Now, I want you to close your eyes." [...] "Clear your mind, Potter," said Snape's cold voice. "Let go of all emotion...." [...] "You're not doing it, Potter.... You will need more discipline than this.... Focus now...." [...] "Let's go again... on the count of three... one -- two -- three -- Legilimens!" (ibid) Already, in the very first lesson, Snape appears to be giving more instruction than Lupin did, at least as far as the mental discipline required. Snape refers back to a type of magic Harry has already mastered, and he talks Harry through clearing his mind. Whereas Lupin's advice really came down to "like that only happier!" The lesson continues for a bit and Snape is very unhappy with Harry's inability to empty himself of emotion. Then there's the minor breakdown when Harry realizes that his dreams have been taking place at the DoM and Snape realizes (maybe the first to do so) that Harry has been receiving dreams from Voldemort. But the interesting thing, to me anyway, is that Snape gives Harry a homework assignment working on the very thing Harry has said he's having a hard time with... emptying himself of emotion. "You are to rid your mind of all emotion every night before sleep -- empty it, make it blank and calm, you understand?" [...] "And be warned, Potter... I shall know if you have not practiced..." (ibid p.538) I find this interesting because though Harry never produces a strong Patronus with Lupin because, as per Lupin, his happy thought isn't happy enough, Lupin doesn't assign any kind of homework to Harry at all. If Lupin, who we all agree is a great teacher, *doesn't* assign homework, I think it reflects well on Snape that he *does* assign Harry homework. Snape has identified where Harry is the weakest and he attempts to have Harry exercise this one area so that he becomes stronger. The problem isn't Snape's instructions, it's Harry's lack of discipline. I've read *tons* of posts that talk about how hard it is to empty your mind, but isn't it just as hard, or nearly as hard, to think of a happy thought when you're in the midst of a clinical depression (which is essentially the affect dementors have on people)? And not just a happy thought, but a truly *powerful* happy thought? For that matter, how hard must it be to be faced by your absolute worst fear and figure out someway to make it silly? And yet that sort of mental discipline is expected of third years in JKR's world. In fact the kind of mental discipline that can make a brick wall just go away is expected of children younger than eleven (Ginny gets through the barrier and I believe she's only ten at the time). Of course, JKR isn't really expecting the rules of her world to translate to ours. (I don't recommend anyone close their eyes and run at a brick wall.) Just as the rules of Peter Pan's world don't translate to ours, either. (Ditto to jumping off the barn roof while thinking gleefully of mermaids.) But working *within the rules of JKR's world* I think Snape, though asking a lot of Harry, was not asking the impossible. And I imagine that if Harry is ever to learn Occlumency we will find him sitting in his bed every evening focusing on emptying his mind of all emotion. And I expect Harry will manage it, too. (With a pinch of fairy dust, of course. ) Betsy Hp From buffyeton at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 22:26:38 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:26:38 -0000 Subject: Any Gryfindors who will be DEs? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130197 So far, only Sytherins have become DEs, or had parents who are DEs. Do you think that any other characters already mentioned will go evil or have parents who do? We know that Sirius was in Gryfindor, but it seems the rest of his family was Slytherin. Tamara From buffyeton at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 22:33:54 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:33:54 -0000 Subject: wizard family planning In-Reply-To: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B082720@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wilson, Bruce" wrote: > Chancie: > > OK, granted this question is coming from WAY out in left field, > > but I was wondering, is there any cannon on having babies in > > the WW? > That is a good question. It also brings up the question of wizarding world population. It seems to me that during the time LV was really gaining steam, and doing a lot of the killings, there were less kids being born in the wizard world. Harry's class and the years before him at Hogwarts seem smaller than they would normally be. Tamara From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 6 22:47:24 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:47:24 -0000 Subject: Any Gryfindors who will be DEs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130199 >>Tamara: >So far, only Sytherins have become DEs, or had parents who are DEs. Do you think that any other characters already mentioned will go evil or have parents who do? We know that Sirius was in Gryfindor, but it seems the rest of his family was Slytherin.< Betsy Hp: Well, there's Peter Pettigrew - a proud member of Gryffindor. Quirrell was never identified by House. Neither was Crouch, Jr. (Both struck me as somewhat Ravenclawish.) Karkaroff is also never identified by House - though I don't know if he even attended Hogwarts. As far Sirius and his family, it raises some interesting thoughts. Because Regulus was most likely in Slytherin and he tried to back out of being a Death Eater -- Voldemort went too far for his taste. Sirius tells Harry that his parents were never Death Eaters. And if *all* of Sirius' family were Slytherins that means that Andromeda, who married a Muggle-born, was in Slytherin House as well. Things to think about. Betsy Hp From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 6 23:01:27 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:01:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] wizard family planning Message-ID: <410-2200561623127500@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130200 Chancie: > > > OK, granted this question is coming from WAY out in left field, > > > but I was wondering, is there any cannon on having babies in > > > the WW? > > > > that perhaps they do. Do a witch's spells go awry more often during > > THAT TIME OF THE MONTH? Do pregnant witches avoid major > > spell castings? > > > > > > K: Okay. I'm gonna so resist the urge to just absolutely lose it. > Because you know, in the Muggle world, we women are quite obviously not > able to completely function up to par during our periods, and we really > shouldn't work at our jobs during our pregnancies. Right? Right? > > ************************************** Chancie: I would just like to interject that the second paragraph under my name, was NOT made by me! And before you "lose it" I am a woman myself, so, please don't think that I started this topic to be sexist or whatever. So definitely I am not saying anything like that, because I didn't type it. And no, for the record, I don't think that women shouldn't be able to work during pregnancy or any other time for that matter, but if a woman chooses not to or can't work during her pregnancy (much like I was, due to the fact that for the first half of my pregnancy I was vomiting every 5 mins, and the last half due to pre-term labor) she shouldn't be seen in as any less of a woman than one who can/chooses to. ************************************** > All that aside, I have always felt that the reproductive issue plays > into my theory about the sociopolitical influence of British politics > in the series. The Weasley's with their 7 children are so abhorred by > the "right-thinking" Purebloods, most of whom seem to have 1 or 2 > children, extrapolating from the fact that we only know of 1 Malfoy, 1 > Crabbe, 1 Goyle, etc. > <> > Katherine ************************************* Chancie: Interesting thoughts, so is it your thinking that the WW does have birth control? Weasley's seem to be only family of that size in the story, what do you suppose they use to "plan" families? Spells? Potions? Any other Ideas? Chancie~ who hopes she didn't sound rude in her reply, because it was not meant to be. From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 6 23:22:36 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:22:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: wizard family planning Message-ID: <410-22005616232236750@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130201 > > Chancie: > > > OK, granted this question is coming from WAY out in left field, > > > but I was wondering, is there any cannon on having babies in > > > the WW? > > > > That is a good question. It also brings up the question of wizarding > world population. It seems to me that during the time LV was really > gaining steam, and doing a lot of the killings, there were less kids > being born in the wizard world. Harry's class and the years before him > at Hogwarts seem smaller than they would normally be. > > Tamara > ******************************** Chancie: I would seem to me, that you probably are right about people in the WW being less likely to have children during a time of such chaos. It's not exactly an environment you would want a helpless child to be part of, or one that would really put you "in the mood". And too perhaps that could help answer JKR's answer to how many student's attend Hogwarts. Maybe Voldy did actually manage to lessen the amount of births in the WW. ******************************** How do hormones work on magical abilities? The fact that wizardling children aren't given serious instruction until adolescence indicates that perhaps they do. Do a witch's spells go awry more often during THAT TIME OF THE MONTH? Do pregnant witches avoid major spellcastings? Bruce ******************************** Chancie: I would venture to say that witches probably do just as much spell casting when pregnant than when not. Especially in cases like Molly, could you imagine if she didn't do magic when she was pregnant with Ginny? I have a hard enough time keeping up with house work with just one toddler, could you imagine trying to deal with all her kids especially the twins doing Muggle cleaning, cooking and all that? It makes me tired just thinking about it! But, as far as hormones effecting magic, well hormones can effect emotion, and we know that strong emotion from anyone male or female can cause accidental magic. Chancie From gelite67 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 00:16:32 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:16:32 -0000 Subject: Who is on the Wal-Mart HBP countdown display? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130202 Forgive me if this is old news, but I saw the HBP countdown display at my local Wal-Mart yesterday. It is the Pensieve scene but shows more at the bottom than what I've seen online. To the left, it shows a boy and girl, whom I assume are Hermione and Ron. On the bottom right, it shows a girl with long, distinctly red hair. I can only assume this is Ginny, which would seem to suggest that she is going to have a more prominent role in HPB. No real surprises there. (Didn't see a blonde, who would suggest Luna; also didn't see any sign of Neville). All three of them are looking up at Harry and DD. Don't know what that means. I also saw the Dark Mark. Could this be a sign the killings and terror are going to resume full scale? Has anyone else noticed anything of significance? Angie From buffyeton at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 00:51:49 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:51:49 -0000 Subject: wizard family planning In-Reply-To: <410-22005616232236750@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chancie " wrote: > > > Chancie: > > > > OK, granted this question is coming from WAY out in left field, > > > > but I was wondering, is there any cannon on having babies in > > > > the WW? > > > > > > > That is a good question. It also brings up the question of wizarding > > world population. It seems to me that during the time LV was really > > gaining steam, and doing a lot of the killings, there were less kids > > being born in the wizard world. Harry's class and the years before him > > at Hogwarts seem smaller than they would normally be. > > > > Tamara > > > ******************************** > > Chancie: > > I would seem to me, that you probably are right about people in the WW > being less likely to have children during a time of such chaos. It's not > exactly an environment you would want a helpless child to be part of, or > one that would really put you "in the mood". And too perhaps that could > help answer JKR's answer to how many student's attend Hogwarts. Maybe > Voldy did actually manage to lessen the amount of births in the WW. > Harry's year has 31 pupils in it from what I can tell. Of those 15 are wizard born, I think. Harry's Class: Boot, Terry Brocklehurst, Mandy Corner, Michael Goldstein, Anthony Li, Su McDougal, Morag Patil, Padma Turpin, Lisa Brown, Lavender Finnigan, Seamus Granger, Hermione Longbottom, Neville Patil, Parvati Potter, Harry Thomas, Dean Weasley, Ron Abbott, Hannah Bones, Susan Finch-Fletchley, Justin Hopkins, Wayne Jones, Megan Macmillan, Ernie Bulstrode, Millicent Crabbe, Vincent Davis, Tracey Goyle, Gregory Greengrass, Daphne Malfoy, Draco Nott, Theodore Parkinson, Pansy Zabini, Blaise Tamara From buffyeton at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 00:57:20 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:57:20 -0000 Subject: OP members contacting each other Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130204 Has it been figured out yet what the secret way is that OP members use to contact each other? JKR said it has already been used in a previous book. Tamara From ajroald at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 01:39:57 2005 From: ajroald at yahoo.com (Lea) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:39:57 -0000 Subject: wizard family planning In-Reply-To: <410-22005616203938984@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130205 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chancie " wrote: What I mean is, there any "Maternity Ward" in St. > Mungo's? Do they use birth control? What happens if a couple > is infertile? How would they deal with an unplanned pregnancy, > are there adoptions? ... Tom Riddle/Voldy > had to go to a Muggle orphanage, where there no Wizards/ > Witches willing to take him in? > > Chancie > According to the Lexicon, there is nothing remotely resembling a maternity ward at St. Mungo's. Who took Tom Riddle to the orphanage? I was under the impression it was his mother (or parents), but maybe I've just read too much fanfiction. From hambtty at triad.rr.com Tue Jun 7 01:52:50 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:52:50 -0000 Subject: OP members contacting each other In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > Has it been figured out yet what the secret way is that OP members use > to contact each other? JKR said it has already been used in a previous > book. > > Tamara BG writes: In GOF, DD sent for Hagrid by using his wand to emit what appeared as a white strand that turned into what Harry thought looked like some type of bird. I think this is how they summon each other. It is not doubt a phoenix hence the name Order of the Phoenix. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 01:54:32 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:54:32 -0000 Subject: Repost of " Dumbledore "wrote" Book 1" by Dicentra ( LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130207 Alla: So, I was thinking of Phoenixgod argument that Dumbledore changed in book 5, because he suddenly became very protective over Harry while in all other books he let him have some very dangerous adventures. I was also thinking about Pippin's ( I think) reply that this argument only makes sense if we are sure that Dumbledore really knew about all Harry's adventures, had everything under control, so to speak. I am one of those readers who HOPES that Dumbledore is not a puppetmaster and does not have everything and everybody including Harry under his complete control, but who thinks nevertheless that Dumbledore knows A LOT of what is going on in Hogwarts. So, as to whether Dumbledore knew about Hary's previous adventures, I really think that canon sort of lets him completely off the hook in GoF only, where it is stated that Harry has to compete in TWT because of binding magical contract. Personally, I still think that Dumbledore could have find the loophole in that law if he wanted to, but it is only my speculation,which is directly contradicted by canon,so let's assume that I agree that in GoF Dumbledore had no choice, but to let Harry compete. In book 3 Dumbledore sends Hermione and Harry off himself, so I don't see how one can argue that Dumbledore did not know. I think that in book 2 one can also argue that Dumbledore knew a lot based on the fact that he dropped waay too many hints to Harry, which became useful to him in the Chamber. And now, finally to book 1, the main purpose of this post. I think that Dumbledore knew everything and staged the major part of it. I think Dicentra's post sums up brilliantly why Dumbledore "wrote book 1" so to speak and I agree with every word of it. And yes, when I think of Dumbledore of PS/SS, who let eleven year old face Voldemort,even if in his weakened stage. I have a VERY hard time reconciling him with Dumbledore of OOP. All of that had been just my opinion only. Enjoy Dicentra's post. :-) Dicentra in 33289: In 33131, I asked the group what had been said about the ease with which Harry and company made it through the gauntlet of spells to get to the Sorcerer's Stone. Thanks to Angela AKA Sweet Usagi (33144), Eloise (33145), and blenberry (33148) for giving me some good synopses of the theories posted here. > I'd like to propose a theory that builds on all that's been said and then goes one step further: The spells were breakable by first-year students because Dumbledore MEANT for Harry to face Voldemort. And in fact, most of the events of SS were engineered by Dumbledore for Harry's benefit. (Sincere apologies if this very argument has been made before, but parsing 33,000 posts to find out was a bit daunting.) > This is why, I believe: 1. It cannot be a coincidence that Harry was with Hagrid when he recovered the stone. Dumbledore sent Hagrid to collect Harry and get the stone at the same time. 2. It is also no coincidence that the stone was retrieved the day Quirrell broke into Gringotts. Dumbledore must have known what had happened to Quirrell in Albania and what Voldemort was up to. He brought the stone to Hogwarts to protect it, yes, but he also knew Voldemort would follow it. Perfect opportunity to let Harry confront him. > 3. As has been mentioned, the Mirror of Erised was the only real protection the stone had. Quirrell and Voldemort would have no problem getting through the other kinds of "protection" surrounding the stone (though it did slow them down some). The mirror was kind of a monkey trap--you can't pull your hand out until you let go of the fruit--that Voldemort could never foil. > 4. Dumbledore gave Harry the Cloak of Invisibility for Christmas, telling him to "use it wisely." What could that mean except "go roaming about the school after hours to figure out this mystery"? > 5. It's therefore no coincidence that Harry found the Mirror of Erised. After Dumbledore tells Harry how the mirror works, he says "The Mirror will be moved to a new home tomorrow, Harry, and I ask you not to go looking for it again. If you ever do run across it, you will now be prepared." At the time, Harry probably thought the last sentence meant that he wouldn't waste away in front of it, but I think he was referring to the confrontation with Voldemort. (And, by the way, the stone was probably in the mirror the whole time (even before Christmas?), "unprotected" by the other spells.) > 6. Some have suggested, with reason, that the tests required the cooperation of all three to pass and were deliberately set up this way. The only test that didn't have this quality was the troll, which Dumbledore knew would have been defeated by Quirrell before Harry met up with it. > 7. That the test was ultimately meant for Harry alone is shown in Snape's potions test. Only one person can make it through to the mirror. Dumbledore counted on that one person being Harry. (If no one was meant to get to the stone, ALL the vials would contain poison.) 8. Dumbledore was counting on Harry to figure out where the stone was and who was after it. When Harry asks him later about the fate of Nicolas Flamel, he brightens up: "Oh, you know about Nicolas?" said Dumbledore, sounding quite delighted. "You *did* do the thing properly, didn't you?" The "thing" was the mystery Dumbledore had set up for Harry. > 9. It's possible that Dumbledore was not fooled in the least by the fake MoM message, instead understanding that Quirrell was making his move. He "leaves" Hogwarts, but he probably doesn't go far. (He tells Harry that he makes it as far as London, but I wonder...) As Hermione later recounts "we were dashing up to the owlery to contact Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance hall--he already knew--he just said,'Harry's gone after him, hasn't he?' and hurtled off to the third floor." > 10. Ron then asks, "D'you think he meant you to do it? Sending you your father's cloak and everything?" Harry responds (after Hermione's obligatory horrified reaction), "I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It's almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could...." I don't think this is Harry?s personal interpretation. I think this is JKR's message to the reader. I wondered what would possess Dumbledore to not only allow, but to arrange for, a first-year student to confront Voldemort (weak, yes, but Quirrell wasn't). He must have known that Quirrell wouldn't be able to touch Harry because the spell that protected him against AK in the first place was still working. But as he says, "I feared I might be too late....For one terrible moment there, I was afraid [the effort to keep Quirrell off you had killed you]." Ah well, I guess that there is no reward without risk. But what a risk! So, that makes Dumbledore the "author" of SS/PS in the sense that he was the ultimate cause of the action. In Book 2, it was Lucius Malfoy, believe it or not, because he set it all in motion by giving Ginny the diary. In Book 3 it was Sirius Black, whose dead sexy escape set off the chain of events. (Or was it Cornelius Fudge, who gives Sirius the newspaper, or the Weasleys for getting their picture taken, or the editor of The Daily Prophet for publishing the picture, etc.?) And in Book 4, it was the fake Mad-Eye Moody. Wonder who will make Book 5 rock? From editor at texas.net Tue Jun 7 01:41:55 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:41:55 -0500 Subject: Authority, just for Phoenixgod, was Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...) References: Message-ID: <006201c56b03$c1f59be0$1b59aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130208 Once more, to possibly settle at least one point. There's such a flurry of posts, Phoenixgod, you probably missed this, so after your and Betsy's comments I repeat a section of an earlier post. Betsy Hp: And since Occlumency was an actual lesson under an actual professor and assigned by the actual headmaster of an actual school, Harry was indeed under an obligation to behave like an actual student. Phoenixgod: Not when the lessons are outside the normal curriculm. But I was also a notoriously anti-authoritarian teen :) that could be tainting my opinion. Amandageist: Here is the exchange wherein Harry accepts Snape's authority in Occlumency [p. 530, OoP]: "This may not be an ordinary class, Potter," said Snape, his eyes narrowed malevolently, "but I am still your teacher and you will therefore call me 'sir' or 'Professor' at all times." "Yes...sir," said Harry. Even if these lessons are outside the standard curriculum, Snape has just outlined the basis of his authority and Harry has accepted it, even to the point of obeying Snape's specification as to mode of address. I don't think the argument that Snape has no authority over Harry, based in a student/teacher relationship, can hold water. ~Amanda From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 7 02:12:06 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:12:06 -0000 Subject: Authority, just for Phoenixgod, was Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...) In-Reply-To: <006201c56b03$c1f59be0$1b59aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130209 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" > Amandageist: > > Here is the exchange wherein Harry accepts Snape's authority in Occlumency I gracefully concede that *one* point ;) I totally forgot that happened. Still, I wonder what would have happened had Harry not accepted Snapes authority. Do a better job of fighting the man, Harry! phoenixgod2000, who would have made a great hippy, but makes a way better Libertarian. From editor at texas.net Tue Jun 7 02:16:14 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:16:14 -0500 Subject: New LOON. Was Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) References: Message-ID: <008301c56b06$e20b62e0$1b59aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130210 O-kay. She did it. Betsy has impressed the socks off me with this post. Her other ones are very good, but in this one she went and retrieved canon from three books to support an interpretation of magical instruction and its application in the comparison of two separate "special lesson" styles provided to Harry, and their efficacy. Wow. This sort of fanatical adherence to canon--the simultaneous subjectivity of the chase of a good theory, along with the objectivity of the written word--is the sort of schizophrenia L.O.O.N.s* are made of. So... Betsy, if you are not already a L.O.O.N.**, I recognize you as a sister on the basis of your lunatic attention to canon detail and the skillfull braiding of same into a coherent pattern. An owl will be along shortly to give you the password to the special wing of the library. ~Amanda, founding L.O.O.N. *League Of Obsessive Nitpickers, whose devotion to canon detail puts them in a class (and only *sometimes* a padded room, thank you) by themselves. **Our first president, Joywitch, accidentally used the L.O.O.N. records as tinder when trying to prepare a cooking fire in a hurry when a preschool field trip strayed too near her cave; they have not yet been reconstructed. ----- Original Message ----- From: "horridporrid03" To: Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 5:24 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) > >>Nora: > > >A Zen master gives a student something that's very productive to > think about and go on.< > > > >>Lupinlore: > >I actually discussed this very subject recently with a Buddhist > monk I know. > > >He said of the whole Occlumency scene that he found it all very > silly. The two instructions Snape gave, "Clear your mind" > and "Master yourself" were essentially worthless. The first (once > again in his belief) takes years to learn how to do effectively, and > the second takes ten thousand lifetimes.< > > > Betsy Hp: > Honestly, I think we're looking in the wrong direction if we compare > Occlumency with Zen or the ilk. I remember reading a review that > compared the magic of the Harry Potter world to the magic of the > imagination. I think that's a more proper direction to look. > Because from the very beginning we are told that the magic of the WW > works because the wizard or witch *believes* it will work. > > Remember what Molly first tells Harry when he's trying to get onto > Platform 9 3/4 : > > "All you have to do is walk straight at the barrier between > platforms nine and ten. Don't stop and don't be scared you'll crash > into it, that's very important. Best do it at a bit of a run if > you're nervous." (SS paperback p.93) > > She specifically tells Harry that it's "very important" that he not > believe he's going to crash into the barrier. Harry even closes his > eyes so he won't see himself crash. Now, there may be some Zen-like > aspects to the idea that believing something allows you to do it (I > know nothing about Zen), but I don't think that was the thrust of > JKR's vision regarding the magic of the WW. In order to enter the > WW Harry has to *believe* in magic, otherwise the magic doesn't > work. I think this idea is more in line with Peter Pan's lessons in > flying than in any real world meditation techniques. > > So I think that best way to measure the efficacy of Snape's methods > for teaching Occlumency is to compare them with Lupin's methods for > teaching the Patronus. That way we're staying within the world JKR > has created and the rules she has given us. > > If we take a look at the instructions Lupin gave Harry for the > Patronus lessons we'll see that Lupin doesn't give Harry any good > advice as far as *how* to produce the mental state that allows one > to conjure a Patronus. The first direction comes after Harry asks > how to conjure a Patronus. > > "With an incantation, which will work only if you are concentrating, > with all your might, on a single, very happy memory." (PoA > scholastic hardback p.237) > > After Harry tries and fails, Lupin gives more advice. > > "You might want to select another memory, a happy memory, I mean, to > concentrate on.... That one doesn't seem to have been strong > enough...." (ibid p.239) > > Again Harry fails, and Lupin gives further instruction: > > "Ready?" [...] "Concentrating hard? All right -- go!" (ibid p.241) > > In the end, Harry doesn't produce a really strong Patronus against > the boggart dementor. He does produce something against the Draco! > Dementor, but Lupin quickly tells him that it only worked *because* > he wasn't going up against a real dementor [ibid p.263]. Which holds > true. Harry fails when he first goes up against real dementors. > [ibid p.383] The only reason Harry *does* finally produce a > Patronus is because of the paradox of time travel. > > "I knew I could do it this time," said Harry, "because I'd already > done it.... Does that make sense?" (ibid p.412) > > Now lets compare Lupin's lessons with Snape's. There are some > obvious differences in that whereas before Harry was the eager > student and Lupin the reluctant teacher, Harry is now quite a > reluctant student. (I'm hard pressed to figure out Snape's mindset > here. He says he's not that eager to teach Harry, but he certainly > doesn't try and talk Harry out of learning, as Lupin does several > times.) > > Here's Snape's first actual instructions: > > "You may use your wand to attempt to disarm me, or defend yourself > in any other way you can think of," said Snape > [...] > "I am about to attempt to break into your mind," said Snape > softly. "We are going to see how well you resist. I have been told > that you have shown aptitude at resisting the Imperius Curse.... You > will find that similar powers are needed for this.... Brace > yourself, now.... Legilimens!" (OotP scholastic hardback p.534) > > Harry fails in his first attempt and Snape gives further instruction. > > "You let me get in too far. You lost control." > [...] > "You managed to stop me eventually, though you wasted time and > energy shouting. You must remain focused. Repel me with your brain > and you will not need to resort to your wand." (ibid p.535) > > Harry asks for more instruction on (I assume) repelling Snape with > his brain. > > "Now, I want you to close your eyes." > [...] > "Clear your mind, Potter," said Snape's cold voice. "Let go of all > emotion...." > [...] > "You're not doing it, Potter.... You will need more discipline than > this.... Focus now...." > [...] > "Let's go again... on the count of three... one -- two -- three -- > Legilimens!" (ibid) > > Already, in the very first lesson, Snape appears to be giving more > instruction than Lupin did, at least as far as the mental discipline > required. Snape refers back to a type of magic Harry has already > mastered, and he talks Harry through clearing his mind. Whereas > Lupin's advice really came down to "like that only happier!" > > The lesson continues for a bit and Snape is very unhappy with > Harry's inability to empty himself of emotion. Then there's the > minor breakdown when Harry realizes that his dreams have been taking > place at the DoM and Snape realizes (maybe the first to do so) that > Harry has been receiving dreams from Voldemort. But the interesting > thing, to me anyway, is that Snape gives Harry a homework assignment > working on the very thing Harry has said he's having a hard time > with... emptying himself of emotion. > > "You are to rid your mind of all emotion every night before sleep -- > empty it, make it blank and calm, you understand?" > [...] > "And be warned, Potter... I shall know if you have not practiced..." > (ibid p.538) > > I find this interesting because though Harry never produces a strong > Patronus with Lupin because, as per Lupin, his happy thought isn't > happy enough, Lupin doesn't assign any kind of homework to Harry at > all. If Lupin, who we all agree is a great teacher, *doesn't* > assign homework, I think it reflects well on Snape that he *does* > assign Harry homework. Snape has identified where Harry is the > weakest and he attempts to have Harry exercise this one area so that > he becomes stronger. The problem isn't Snape's instructions, it's > Harry's lack of discipline. > > I've read *tons* of posts that talk about how hard it is to empty > your mind, but isn't it just as hard, or nearly as hard, to think of > a happy thought when you're in the midst of a clinical depression > (which is essentially the affect dementors have on people)? And not > just a happy thought, but a truly *powerful* happy thought? For > that matter, how hard must it be to be faced by your absolute worst > fear and figure out someway to make it silly? And yet that sort of > mental discipline is expected of third years in JKR's world. > > In fact the kind of mental discipline that can make a brick wall > just go away is expected of children younger than eleven (Ginny gets > through the barrier and I believe she's only ten at the time). Of > course, JKR isn't really expecting the rules of her world to > translate to ours. (I don't recommend anyone close their eyes and > run at a brick wall.) Just as the rules of Peter Pan's world don't > translate to ours, either. (Ditto to jumping off the barn roof > while thinking gleefully of mermaids.) > > But working *within the rules of JKR's world* I think Snape, though > asking a lot of Harry, was not asking the impossible. And I imagine > that if Harry is ever to learn Occlumency we will find him sitting > in his bed every evening focusing on emptying his mind of all > emotion. And I expect Harry will manage it, too. (With a pinch of > fairy dust, of course. ) > > Betsy Hp > > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 00:33:38 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:33:38 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130211 After being away for a while, I decided to enter the contest, maybe a little late, but... > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley > > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe > more.) Maybe Seamus Finnigan or Dean Thomas > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) None > > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Bill Weasley > > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? > Amelia Bones > > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Pensive > > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? > Yes > > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? >Nope > > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 > Predictions (0-10 points each): > 1- DD WILL NOT die 2- The TRIO will remain as is 3- Neville will get quite a few OWLS (even in potions) 4- Harry will meet LV or his DEs at the beginning of the book, not at the end as usual. 5- Harry will have his first Birthday party ever and he'll receive something from either his parents or Sirius. 6- Remus is NOT ESE 7- The Malfoys get into trouble: Draco doesn't get enough OWLS, Lucius remains in jail, and Narcissa, well she may get signed (=dark mark). 8- Ron will fully realize his feelings for Hermione 9- We'll see Crookshanks (sp?)a lot more 10- Harry will take NEWT classes for becoming and Auror, Ron on the other hand won't, he'll choose a new career, maybe at the MoM. 11- Hermione will realize there's no point of SPEW, the elves are happy the way they are. 12- Firenze will be allowed back into the forest. 13- We'll hear one last 'true' prophecy from Trelawney before she dies all of a sudden. 14- Tonks or Bill will be the new DADA teacher (probably Bill since Tonks as an Auror has too much work already). 15- Arthur will get a better paid job at the MoM 16- The new MoM will be an Order Member (Kingsley) (sp?) or Amelia Bones. 17- Percy won't return to his family 18- We'll find out who was at Godric Hollow and what happened during the missing 24 hours. 19- Petunia will tell Harry all she knows about the WW and will give him some of Lily's old belongings 20-Sirius left a will with Harry as his only benefactor 21- Petunia will do some magic Juli - Counting the days 'til July 16th From nrenka at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 03:53:49 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 03:53:49 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130212 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > So I think that best way to measure the efficacy of Snape's methods > for teaching Occlumency is to compare them with Lupin's methods for > teaching the Patronus. That way we're staying within the world JKR > has created and the rules she has given us. Okay--we have two massively different things. :) First of all, *there is an incantation* that one must use. There's no 'Expecto Patronum!' focus-word for Occlumency. > Already, in the very first lesson, Snape appears to be giving more > instruction than Lupin did, at least as far as the mental > discipline required. Snape refers back to a type of magic Harry > has already mastered, and he talks Harry through clearing his > mind. Whereas Lupin's advice really came down to "like that only > happier!" I don't think that Snape ever really gives any information on how to clear your mind. He says 'focus!' and all of that, but none of that gives Harry any clue as to what to really do. Focus on what? How do you clear your mind out? Part of the essence of the problem is that Occlumency doesn't hinge upon one thing in the way that a Patronus does. All you need for a Patronus is a focus upon a happy memory. This is tricky (as we see), but is a goal in big flashing neon lights. In contrast, clearing your mind is a goal of absence, and you run into the white elephant problem. (Try not to think of white elephants right now. See?) A Patronus has this very specific goal. Occlumency has a nebulous, difficult goal, and is more a state of being than a momentary expenditure of effort. > I've read *tons* of posts that talk about how hard it is to empty > your mind, but isn't it just as hard, or nearly as hard, to think > of a happy thought when you're in the midst of a clinical > depression (which is essentially the affect dementors have on > people)? And not just a happy thought, but a truly *powerful* happy > thought? For that matter, how hard must it be to be faced by your > absolute worst fear and figure out someway to make it silly? No. :) In part, it's because a happy memory has to be pulled out of you but is then projected outwards, into a physical manifestation, something that you can see. Clearing your mind is a purely internal thing, and takes far, far more getting together with yourself than anything that goes outward. Harry can make a Patronus under intense pressure, but I don't think he's shown himself able to do Occlumency under the same. > But working *within the rules of JKR's world* I think Snape, though > asking a lot of Harry, was not asking the impossible. I don't think he was asking the impossible. I think he was going about it in a way that takes a lot longer for the student to master, and is decidedly unhelpful. No supplementary *exercises* with feedback involved, just vague instructions. No meditation, no calming exercises, no puzzle solving, nothin'. Just hit the kid and expect him to respond. -Nora is admittedly biased, but does know at least a something about clearing one's mind and how to teach it From Calimora at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 03:56:06 2005 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 03:56:06 -0000 Subject: wizard family planning In-Reply-To: <410-2200561623127500@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130213 > > Katherine: > > All that aside, I have always felt that the reproductive issue > > plays into my theory about the sociopolitical influence of > > British politics in the series. The Weasley's with their 7 > > children are so abhorred by the "right-thinking" Purebloods, > > most of whom seem to have 1 or 2 children, extrapolating from > > the fact that we only know of 1 Malfoy, 1 Crabbe, 1 Goyle, etc. > > > Chancie: > > Interesting thoughts, so is it your thinking that the WW does have > birth control? Weasley's seem to be only family of that size in > the story, what do you suppose they use to "plan" families? > Spells? Potions? Any other Ideas? > > It would seem to me, that you probably are right about people in > the WW being less likely to have children during a time of such > chaos. It's not exactly an environment you would want a helpless > child to be part of, or one that would really put you "in the > mood". And too perhaps that could help answer JKR's answer to how > many student's attend Hogwarts. Maybe Voldy did actually manage to > lessen the amount of births in the WW. Calimora (me): Given the amount of things in the wizarding world that seem to be driven by will or desire, I think the most effective form of birth control in the wizarding world is probably not wanting more kids. If the Desire and Sacifice of a mother can save her son from death, it probably played a part in wether she had a son or not. If that's the case then chaos naturaly depresses the birth rate. Nobody wants their two year old to have to dodge unforgivables. It would also explain why so many Death Eaters have kids Harry's age, born at the height of Voldemort's power. In contrast the only auror's child we know of in that age group is Neville. The Malfoys and other un-cuddly purebloods would only go for an Heir and a Spare at most, otherwise they'd have to split thier fortunes/heritage too much. (Remember Draco's "More children than they can afford"?) The largest 'right thinking' pureblood family mentioned are Sirius' cousins Bellarix, Narcissa, and Andromeada. All of witch are female, leading me to wonder things about wizarding inheratance laws. While freindly personable folk like the Weasleys can feild their own Quidditch teams if they choose. I wonder about infertility inthe wizarding populace. Has there been any mention of an married couple without children? (Flamel's don't count.) Lea Said: > According to the Lexicon, there is nothing remotely resembling a > maternity ward at St. Mungo's. > Who took Tom Riddle to the orphanage? I was under the impression it > was his mother (or parents), but maybe I've just read too much > fanfiction. Calimora: Given the lack of a maternity ward, I'm inclined to believe that Tom's mum probably gave birth under the care of muggle physicians or midwife, and they were the ones who saw to the child's placement. Afterall, she had been living in the muggle world enough to meet Tom Sr. ~Calimora (v-e-r-y sleepy) From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 04:11:00 2005 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Death in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050607041100.64569.qmail@web32903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130214 Ok...I know that we have all discussed and debated this ad nauseum, however I just read something and I had to get opinions. I was reading an article on MSN about two guys in London were arrested for stealing two copies of the book and attempting to sell them. The article goes on to discuss the release of the book in July and how there is much anticipation - especially since JKR has said a very important character is going to die. This is EXACTLY how the end of the article reads: "The sixth and newest Harry Potter novel has sparked massive interest since author JK Rowling revealed a major character will be killed in the book. With a flood of bets in late May that the Hogwarts' head teacher, Professor Dumbledore, would die in the book, many bookmakers suspended betting, suspecting that information had been leaked. - Sapa-AP" Am I the only one wondering if this is a leak in itself?? To me it sounds almost like confirmation that it will be Dumbledore will die. What does everyone else think?? Anxious and Excited, Beckah --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 05:53:04 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 05:53:04 -0000 Subject: Socks, Jung, and the Dark Lord Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130215 Socks, Jung, and the Dark Lord In PS/SS when DD looks in the Mirror of Erised (Desire) he says that he sees himself with a pair of socks. He says people insist on always giving him books, but what he really wants is a pair of socks. In CS Dobby is set free with a sock. DD's full name is Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. I know that at one time, and in some cultures, it is not that unusual to have so many middle names, but still I wonder. His patronus is a Phoenix; his bird is a Phoenix I wonder if it is possible that DD like the phoenix, reincarnates after so many years and each reincarnation he gets an additional name. Put that together with a desire for socks and maybe the only way for DD to be free of his series of death and rebirth is the same as Dobby's. This is rather off the wall, but it does make me wonder. I know that I have seen a lot of Christian symbols in the HP series. But there may be others there as well. This would be what? Buddhist? The Buddha said that desire is the root of all evil. The eight fold path to enlightenment helps one to break out of the path of desire. Reincarnation is more Hindu. I really don't know that much about these two religions to see the symbols properly if they are there. Does anyone else know? I tend to think that while the series is based on Christian ideas that there are elements of all religions in it. I am also beginning to wonder about Jung. I am not a Jungian. My training was more Freudian. I wonder if one could make a case for LV being Harry shadow side? There seems to be many things in the series that could be interpreted as the stages of becoming. By that I mean the psychological stages that a child goes through to become a whole complete mentally healthy adult. I wonder if this is part of what JKR is up too. Someone here said that there was a picture of our author with a copy of Jung's book behind her. Given how she loves to toy with us and drop little hints here and there, well it just make we wonder. It makes me wonder a *lot*. I also wonder about Tom Riddle, LV, and the Dark Lord. I wonder if the Dark Lord and LV are the same person. We know that LV is Tom. But is the DL someone or something else? Maybe the DL is an entity that takes over a wizard. So in one time it was Grindelwald, and then he came back through Tom as LV. Scary because if this is true than if LV is defeated, the DL will come back yet again when another young wizard comes too close to the dark side. (No Star Wars tie intended.) Maybe the DE worship the *Dark Lord*, not LV. I don't know a lot about witchcraft, but I think that there is some ancient worship of *the Dark Lord*, and I'm not sure if he is seen as evil. Again maybe someone here that knows more about this and can enlighten us. I found this poster in a Witchcraft catalog that I have, it is about the *Dark God*. ------ "Listen to the charge of the Dark God, who was of old called Iakchos, Donn, Anubis, Hades, Setesh, Hoder and by many other names: I am the shadow in the bright day; I am the reminder at the height of living. I am the never-ending veil of Night where the star goddess dances. I am the death that must be so that Life may continue, for behold, Life is immortal because the living must die. I am the strength that protects, that limits; I am the power that says No, and No Further and That Is Enough. I am the things that can not be spoken of; I am the laughter at the edge of death. Come with me in the warm enfolding dark; feel my caresses in the hands, in the mouth, in the body of the one you love, and be transformed. Gather in the moonless night and speak in unknown tongues; the Dark Mother and I will listen. Sing to us and cry out and the power will be yours to wield. Blow me a kiss when the sky is dark, and I will smile, but no kiss returns; for my kiss is the final one for all mortal flesh." ----- Doesn't that remind you of some of the things about LV, DE's and Dementors?? (And that "life is immortal because the living must die"? I have no clue what that means.) But maybe all Tom needs is a pair of socks!! Tonks_op From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 7 07:54:27 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:54:27 -0000 Subject: Death in HBP In-Reply-To: <20050607041100.64569.qmail@web32903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130216 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Sylvester wrote: snip > "The sixth and newest Harry Potter novel has sparked massive interest since author JK Rowling revealed a major character will be killed in the book. > > With a flood of bets in late May that the Hogwarts' head teacher, Professor Dumbledore, would die in the book, many bookmakers suspended betting, suspecting that information had been leaked. - Sapa-AP" > > Am I the only one wondering if this is a leak in itself?? To me it sounds almost like confirmation that it will be Dumbledore will die. What does everyone else think?? JLV here: I'm not sure that this is a leak - after all it is the bookmakers who are suspending betting, not the book publishers! (Ooh a play on words!) But I have my own 'Am I the only one?' question inspired by these speculations. Am I the only one who pictures Harry in his final battle with Voldemort seeing a vision of Dearlydeparted!Dumbledore saying to him in a voice fronm the beyond "Use the Fawkes Harry... Use the Fawkes..."? JLV xx From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 7 08:16:21 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:16:21 -0000 Subject: OP members contacting each other In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130217 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > > Has it been figured out yet what the secret way is that OP members > use > > to contact each other? JKR said it has already been used in a > previous > > book. > > > > Tamara > > BG writes: > In GOF, DD sent for Hagrid by using his wand to emit what appeared as > a white strand that turned into what Harry thought looked like some > type of bird. I think this is how they summon each other. It is not > doubt a phoenix hence the name Order of the Phoenix. JLV: I was ever so happy when I saw that JKR might be answering the question on the Order's communication method as it is one of the only debates I've got involved in in this group. There is some discussion of this starting with this post by Chancie suggesting kneazles: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/122350 Which sparked a debate about communication methods leading to whether or not the bird (as mentioned by BG) is always a phoenix or whether it may be a Patronus. Although I took the Patronus side, I'm still not sure either way... But I am sure that it is this bird that is the communication method of the Order. JLV xx From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Tue Jun 7 08:27:56 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:27:56 -0000 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130218 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Schlobin at a... wrote: > Here is the part I don't get, what was the insult. If I read your > article correctly, the person in question has even compared himself to > Harry Potter. So, I don't understand the media's outrage or see why it > required an apology. Well, the minister actually compaired our 'dear' prime minister with a combination of Harry Potter and prim and proper middle class social values. The actual idiom is too difficult to translate, is not nice, and sums up as a Petunia Dursley personality with the looks of Harry Potter. And no, that is not a compliment. He made it even worse by criticizing the EC referendum campaign, said our ministers butched it badly, by having a totally negative campaing, frightening voters in what would happen if they voted No. I laughed my head off when I read it, the man is absolutely right, as well as in typecasting Balkenende as in the EC referendum campaign (for those who have nog guessed, I really, really do not like our prime minister). Most people I spoke about it, found it hilarious as well. But yes, it was insulting, and good diplomats don't do that. Gerry From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 09:55:44 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 09:55:44 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130219 Nora wrote: > > I don't think that Snape ever really gives any information on how to > clear your mind. He says 'focus!' and all of that, but none of that > gives Harry any clue as to what to really do. Focus on what? How do > you clear your mind out? Part of the essence of the problem is that > Occlumency doesn't hinge upon one thing in the way that a Patronus > does. > > All you need for a Patronus is a focus upon a happy memory. This is > tricky (as we see), but is a goal in big flashing neon lights. In > contrast, clearing your mind is a goal of absence, and you run into > the white elephant problem. (Try not to think of white elephants > right now. See?) > > A Patronus has this very specific goal. Occlumency has a nebulous, > difficult goal, and is more a state of being than a momentary > expenditure of effort. Finwitch: Indeed -- and to add it, as Lupin says Harry needs a very happy thought for a patronus -- well, what Harry NEEDED in order to master the spell were happy experiences. Doing homework is not going to make you happy (unless, maybe if you're Hermione) - so *of course* Lupin doesn't assign any, and gaining things that make you happy is something Harry would do anyway (and *telling* him to do so would IMO lessen the happiness). Note, however, that Harry DID manage something while in his lessons, by thinking the day he recieved his Hogwarts letter. If I recall, to Harry, that was is *happiest* memory. Mainly due to the fact that he could leave the Dursleys. His stronger Patronus (not yet corporeal) by the lake is given by Sirius' offer to give him a home. The first corporeal patronus, right after that one: 1)He's NOT under Dementor influence, being on the opposite side of the lake, so he doesn't need to battle Dementors - even as a Boggart. Note that sending Patronus after Draco didn't as yet produce a corporeal Patronus. 2)He's just realised he CAN produce a Patronus - and, as Dumbledore put it, found his father within himself. That realisation on ABILITY to produce that nice stag-patronus made Harry very happy... but he must have been happy playing Quidditch, too... I'd say that the BIG learning experience, the crack, wasn't really the corporeal one, it was the powerful one Harry cast, in the midst of Dementors thinking, with all his might: 'I'm going to live with Sirius'. Further, after that whenever Harry feels Very Happy, he immediately thinks: "I could produce the World's Best Patronus right now". As for Snape/Occlumency -- well, telling a 15-year old to empty his mind of all emotion is well - rather hopeless. Because extremely strong emotions ARE a part of being a teenager. I agree with Dumbledore, Harry wasn't nearly as angry as he should have been -- I was surprised nothing exploded... And I do believe that 15-year old, angry Harry is/was quite unable to 'empty his mind of all emotion' - simply because his veins are running with adrenaline (justified anger in general + survival, considering the Blood Quill) - and boosts of testosterone etc. just add to it... and certainly not without proper instruction. Snape insults Harry (just MORE adrenaline into his veins) --> Harry can't empty his mind -> Snape scolds him for it -- > Harry gets frustrated -- > More adrenaline -- > less ability... See? it WAS getting worse. Snape in Potions/Umbridge in DADA keep the adrenaline (anger) level high (and McGonagall, taking points off for 'not keeping his temper in check' just adds fuel to the fire...) I'm surprised Harry didn't blow something up! Is it going to happen in HBP? Finwitch From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 10:18:40 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:18:40 -0000 Subject: wizard family size; was wizard family planning In-Reply-To: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B082720@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130220 Chancie: "OK, granted this question is coming from WAY out in left field, but I was wondering, is there any cannon on having babies in the WW?" No, other than the mere fact Lily and James had one. Bruce: " That's an interesting question; I can't remember anything 'canon' on this, but then it is primarily a children's series. I can't remember anything about one of the female teachers taking the girls aside for THE TALK, or female students going to Mme. P. for--er--supplies. How do hormones work on magical abilities? The fact that wizardling children aren't given serious instruction until adolescence indicates that perhaps they do. Do a witch's spells go awry more often during THAT TIME OF THE MONTH? Do pregnant witches avoid major spellcastings?" One place to start is reminding ourselves that these books are not a window into the wizard world; they're a tiny little peephole. We don't see 98% of what goes on in the wizard world. (BTW, you're either the bravest Gryffindor in history or Peeves's twin to kick over a hornets' nest like this. Bon chance, mon ami, and would you like a blindfold?) As far as having babies goes, I wrote some dialogue in a fanfic once where I imagined that many wizards believe in taking care of their babies the same as we Muggles do. It would be easy to clean up the little tyke's byproducts with a wave of a wand, but loving parents clean up by hand and hold the bottle by hand because it strengthens the bonds between parents and babies. Just a little aside by a Muggle dad who wouldn't have missed any of it for his babies, who are now 11 and 13. There's no reason to think that the students' hormones have anything to do with their magical abilities. I don't need to see and we aren't going to see the details of how wizard people deal with their bodily functions. OTOH, the fertility or otherwise of the wizard world is a major social issue for them. Pureblood wizards are likely to have low fertility rates because of their restricted gene pool. They're even likely to develop problems with things like haemophilia or even Tay-Sachs disease, all of the intermarriage problems that affected groups such as European royal families. The wizards whose lines are being invigorated with fresh blood from non-magical folk, however, are less likely to have these problems and also more likely to have larger families. This alone is a source of tension in the wizard world. Not only do the Malfoys feel increasingly outnumbered, but I doubt they like seeing the things like blue jeans, soccer balls and U2 posters that the Muggleborn kids inevitably introduce their schoolmates to. I'd guess they feel their grip on the wizard world slipping. Ron was right. The wizard world would have died out long ago if they hadn't married Muggles. There's no way for them to stay at a comfortable small number - they'd pay far too high a price as a society for it. Actually, their society would eventually fade away. Jim Ferer From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 11:28:45 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 11:28:45 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Flying Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130221 "buckbeak1391" : > > Still, a hippogriff is proud, and it would most likely be dangerous > if not respected. Finwitch: Yes, well - I think Hagrid had tamed him a bit. Draco straight out insulted Buckbeak, and got away with a scratch! (I think a wild Hippogriff would have killed him). Besides, Sirius must have said or acted in a manner of surprised appreciation and gratitude (well, they WERE saving his soul there...) and Buckbeak knew that... Anyway, Harry&Hermione - who WERE polite and also saved Buckbeak's life (I think the Hippogriff realised that, too) were inviting this third person who at least is NOT openly insultive. Finwitch From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 7 03:38:02 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 23:38:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Repost of " Dumbledore "wrote" Book 1" by Dicentra ( LONG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A5169A.6070905@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130222 Alla, quoting Dicentra: >So, that makes Dumbledore the "author" of SS/PS in the sense that he >was the ultimate cause of the action. In Book 2, it was Lucius >Malfoy, believe it or not, because he set it all in motion by giving >Ginny the diary. In Book 3 it was Sirius Black, whose dead sexy >escape set off the chain of events. (Or was it Cornelius Fudge, who >gives Sirius the newspaper, or the Weasleys for getting their >picture taken, or the editor of The Daily Prophet for publishing the >picture, etc.?) And in Book 4, it was the fake Mad-Eye Moody. Wonder >who will make Book 5 rock? > > Obviously that post was pre-OOTP? You could argue that Umbridge was the impetus for the events of book 5. So now we're left wondering who will be the 'author' of book 6! heather the buzzard From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 7 04:23:23 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 04:23:23 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130223 "greg_a126" wrote: > In order for this book to entire the > list of all time classics, good has > to triumph over evil. That means > Harry has to beat Voldemort, > not "tie" him by dying with him. I think you're way off the mark with that, most of the really great classics are tragedies, because it gives the stories a certain gravitas they would not otherwise have, at least that's what the ancient Greeks thought and I agree . In Shakespeare's best plays the hero dies and they are still enormously popular 400 years later; in the most profitable movie of all time, Titanic, the hero also dies. I think Harry will die too. >JKR has to know that. JKR knows that if she kills Harry it will be extraordinarily controversial, people will say she is traumatizing children, there will be gnashing of teeth and riots in the street. How could any author resist doing that, she's need a will of iron. Eggplant From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 7 04:53:49 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 04:53:49 -0000 Subject: Death in HBP. In-Reply-To: <20050607041100.64569.qmail@web32903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130224 Rebecca Sylvester wrote: > To me it sounds almost like confirmation > that it will be Dumbledore will die. > What does everyone else think?? I concluded that Dumbledore would die at the end of book 6 long ago, about the time book 4 came out; it will make a great cliffhanger. After Dumbledore teaches Harry everything he knows (he will teach defense against the dark arts himself in the next book I think) he will have served his purpose and can't be around for Harry's big fight with Voldemort in book 7, Harry can't have a backup plan with Dumbledore waiting in the wings. The fate of the world will all be on Harry's shoulders alone. I further predict that his death will come about because Percy led the Headmaster and Harry into a trap, Dumbledore is killed and Harry nearly is, but Percy escapes justice, at least until the last book. Eggplant From blairb82 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 06:54:27 2005 From: blairb82 at yahoo.com (blairb82) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 06:54:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130225 Calimora: > I'm with PhoenixGod, on this one. 'Dumbledore couldn't even look at > him' is not an excuse for leaving your orphaned protege twisting in > the wind for a year. Not in a society with ink and paper. > > "Dear Harry, I'm sorry we can't speak face to face right now. I'll > tell you why - in person - once you've mastered Occulmency. > > -Dumbledore > p.s. Feel to send a note via houselves any time you need me." > > An 'explanation' and a goad for his curiosity - solid motivation for > Harry - all in one. No vague 'you will understand soon enough' > (which he didn't). Yo'm Blair I do love the points that bboyminn made on this quote in post #130156. However, the sentence here about "not in a society with ink and paper" got me thinking. With the little we know about Occlumens/Legelimens and as well about the charms that protected the Potter's before LV showed up that fateful night, the idea of ink and paper made me wonder. It seems from cannon that Dumbledore and possibly Sirius knew where the Potters were but could not tell because Pettigrew was the secret keeper. It also seems from OotP that Kreacher could not tell all the secrets of the Order of the Phoenix to the DE's because Dumbledore was the secret keeper of the Order. This particular post reminded me of the fact that it was Dumbuldore who wrote the address of # 12 Grimmauld Place for Harry to read and therefore learn where the Order's hideout was. The question I am trying to raise is why Dumbledore did not tell Harry everything in a note and then make that Order of the Phoenix information. If Voldemort, through Legelimency, could break the secret keeper charm without being told, then he could just look at someone who knew, including Pettigrew (as well as Dumbledore and Sirius possibly) and know where the Potters were. But it seems from cannon that he cannot do this, he needs the secret keeper to give this information. So, why can't Dumbledore give Harry the information about the prophecy and whatever he wants by writing it down, delivering it to Harry through an Order member, and becoming the secret keeper to it. Yes it would alienate Ron and Hermione but at least Harry would know the seriousness of Occlumency as well as going to the MoM. I still love all five books but I still have many questions I can't wait to be answered. Yo'm Blair (who hopes that this advances the discussion) From Bazile2OO3 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 7 11:44:11 2005 From: Bazile2OO3 at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Glazier) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:44:11 -0400 Subject: Muggle born magical sibs? In-Reply-To: <1118109277.1643.19378.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130226 heather the buzzard said: >Her complaints about Lily were that >her parents adored having a witch in the family, they were so proud of >her. It seems, to me anyway, that her primary dislike of Lily was the >favouritism rather than the magic itself -- she grew to hate the magic >because of the favouritism, rather than the other way around. Bazile: And this, in my opinion is why Petunia shows so much favoritism towards Dudley over Harry. I think that part of it is the fact that Dudley is her child, while Harry is her sister's. Before the Godric's Hollow Incident, Petunia, as stated in SS/PS was content to pretend that she did not even have a sister. Afterwards, this baby of her sister's and her freak husband appears on her doorstep. She can't not take him. He's family. The situation gives her the oppurtunity to right the wrongs of her parents. Lilly was special because she was a witch. Thus Dudley becomes extra-special in her mind because he's normal. Harry is unnatural, greedy, bad. Little Duddykins is perfect. He's a Muggle. I don't think that Petunia consciously made the decision to neglect Harry in favor of Dudley. I'm not saying that what's she's doing is okay, but I don't think that at first she even realized what she was doing. Thoughts and Ramblings http://www.livejournal.com/users/bazile03 From anurim at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 12:38:07 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 05:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death in HBP. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050607123807.33593.qmail@web32602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130227 --- eggplant107 wrote: > I concluded that Dumbledore would die at the end of > book 6 long ago, > about the time book 4 came out; it will make a great > cliffhanger. > After Dumbledore teaches Harry everything he knows > (he will teach > defense against the dark arts himself in the next > book I think) he > will have served his purpose and can't be around for > Harry's big fight > with Voldemort in book 7, Harry can't have a backup > plan with > Dumbledore waiting in the wings. The fate of the > world will all be on > Harry's shoulders alone. I further predict that his > death will come > about because Percy led the Headmaster and Harry > into a trap, > Dumbledore is killed and Harry nearly is, but Percy > escapes justice, > at least until the last book. Am I the only one who interprets the following statement on Jo's page as meaning that Dumbledore will make it to the end of the series? "Section: F.A.Q. We haven't heard the school song since the first book. Did the teachers rebel against it? Dumbledore called for the school song when he was feeling particularly buoyant, but times are becoming ever darker in the wizarding world. Should Dumbledore ever suggest a rousing encore, you may assume that he is on top form once more." Of course, it is not unconceivable to hear Dumbledore conduct the song from 'beyond the veil' so to say, but we do know that dead people never come back, so I would see this second option as a bit of cheating. I suggest two other possible interpretations, which are in agreement with most people thinking that Dumbledore will die in book 6 (although I want to make clear I am not one of those people): - Harry and Voldemort lock wands once again, now in the middle of the school; Dumbledore had been killed by Voldemort, therefore his shadow comes out through Priori Incantatem, and leads the students in a song that gives Harry strength to vanquish the Dark Lord once and forever. or: - Since Dumbledore is not afraid of death, the one true sacrifice I can think of would be for him to become a ghost, so that he could still be around Harry and help him in the final battle. Upon happy conclusion, Dumbledore's ghost soothes his longing for an eternity of knowledge (the next big adventure) by making the whole school join once again in Hogwarts' song. Of course, at limit Dumbledore might call for the song from a portrait as well, but I still think that, phoenix or no phoenix, we'll have the dear Headmaster with us until the very end of the series (when he might well give up on life himself, now that his mission would have been accomplished). The one thing I am curious about is: will the Weasley twins still be the last to finish the song, long after everybody else has become silent? I truly hope Jo will give us this treat, or at least make other characters imitate them in fond remembrance. Mira __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 7 12:38:15 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 12:38:15 -0000 Subject: Death in HBP In-Reply-To: <20050607041100.64569.qmail@web32903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130228 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Sylvester wrote: > The article goes on to discuss the release of the book in July and >how there is much anticipation - especially since JKR has said a >very important character is going to die. This is EXACTLY how the >end of the article reads: > > With a flood of bets in late May that the Hogwarts' head teacher, >Professor Dumbledore, would die in the book, many bookmakers >suspended betting, suspecting that information had been leaked. - Sapa-AP" > > Am I the only one wondering if this is a leak in itself?? To me >it sounds almost like confirmation that it will be Dumbledore will >die. What does everyone else think?? Karen> This was actually in the UK press quite a while ago now. JKR says the following about this alleged leak on her website in the "News" section (on 26/5/05): "Well, here we go again! The gossip, the non-stories, the ever- wilder speculation... Please remember that allegations of 'leaks' concerning deaths in 'Half-Blood Prince' are very easy to make. Any comment I make on such rumours would be a spoiler, so I'll just repeat: keep those barrels of salt handy." HTH! Karen From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jun 7 13:29:06 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 13:29:06 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130229 Betsy: > I find this interesting because though Harry never produces a > strong Patronus with Lupin because, as per Lupin, his happy > thought isn't happy enough, Lupin doesn't assign any kind of > homework to Harry at all. If Lupin, who we all agree is a great > teacher, *doesn't* assign homework, I think it reflects well on > Snape that he *does* assign Harry homework. Snape has identified > where Harry is the weakest and he attempts to have Harry exercise > this one area so that he becomes stronger. The problem isn't > Snape's instructions, it's Harry's lack of discipline. Jen: The bottom line is, when faced with a hundred dementors gliding across the lake Harry was able to produce a fully-formed corporeal Patronus. When faced with intrusions by the Dark Lord into his mind, Harry was unable to use Occlumency to block them. As Dumbledore might say, "It mattered not which teacher was the greatest, what mattered in the end is was how well Harry learned." ;) This isn't an attempt to discount your analysis of mental discipline in general though. Several smaller incidents came to mind reading your excellent post, like Harry reading the location of Grimmauld Place and imagining it into being, and Harry controlling his mind and emotion to repel the beads back into Voldemort's wand. And regarding mental discipline, I think Lupin and Snape *both* show signs of having excellent mental and emotional control. I find it interesting that those two not only survived the first war, but managed to become very skillful and powerful wizards along the way (I believe this is how Rowling is presenting them). Both had serious flaws that could have rendered them ineffective, Lupin's lycantrophy and Snape's attraction to the Dark Arts, but both overcame those 'particular barriers' to become part of the inside circle of the Order. Betsy: > But working *within the rules of JKR's world* I think Snape, > though asking a lot of Harry, was not asking the impossible. And > I imagine that if Harry is ever to learn Occlumency we will find > him sitting in his bed every evening focusing on emptying his mind > of all emotion. And I expect Harry will manage it, too. (With a > pinch of fairy dust, of course. ) Jen: Oh, I definitely think Harry is capable of learning Occlumency. Unfortunately, that's the single most powerful argument against Snape's effectiveness as a teacher for this particular student. Harry *is* capable of enormous discipline, he proved that by throwing off the Imperius and in the Priori Incantatem scene. Therefore, the problem in learning Occlumency had to be one of the factors at play besides Harry's ability. Snape's teaching style, Harry's motivation, intrusions by LV into his mind--all probably affected his ability to learn. From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Jun 7 13:35:58 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:35:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050607133558.66316.qmail@web86207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130230 --- Jen Reese wrote: > Therefore, the problem in learning Occlumency had to > be one of the > factors at play besides Harry's ability. Snape's > teaching style, > Harry's motivation, intrusions by LV into his > mind--all probably > affected his ability to learn. All true, and don't forget the act of sabotage by Sirius! Sirius undermined Harry's motivation from the get go, treating the idea of the lessons as Snape's private whim or something. Brilliant, Sirius, that will really communicate to Harry just how important Dumbledore finds these lessons. Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 14:19:07 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:19:07 -0000 Subject: New LOON. And now a congratulatory filk! In-Reply-To: <008301c56b06$e20b62e0$1b59aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130231 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > O-kay. > > She did it. > > Betsy has impressed the socks off me with this post. (snip) > Betsy, if you are not already a L.O.O.N.**, I recognize you as a sister on > the basis of your lunatic attention to canon detail and the skillfull > braiding of same into a coherent pattern. An owl will be along shortly to > give you the password to the special wing of the library. > > ~Amanda, founding L.O.O.N. > > *League Of Obsessive Nitpickers, whose devotion to canon detail puts them in > a class (and only *sometimes* a padded room, thank you) by themselves. > **Our first president, Joywitch, accidentally used the L.O.O.N. records as > tinder when trying to prepare a cooking fire in a hurry when a preschool > field trip strayed too near her cave; they have not yet been reconstructed. Ginger: I hope the preschoolers will be reconstructed soon. Betsy, congratulations on your LOONhood. It has been a very long time since anyone has been honoured in this way. This calls for a filk! So, Betsy, this one's for you. Voldy in My Mind with Visions to the tune of Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds by the Beatles. Harry (singing to himself) Picture yourself in a hall in a basement With blue lights and doors- beyond them a prize. Hear your self speaking, quite high-pitched and coldly And find you've herpetical eyes. Always the doorway with sights yet unseen Runs in the dreams in your head. Ron's fateful snoring comes as a surprise, And it's gone. Voldy in My Mind with Visions (repeat) Bowing low down is a man with the knowledge Of Prophecy records and what therein lies. Rookwood now grovels- you thank him profusely. Your voice is so cold and so high. Summoned now, Avery appears at the door Wishing he could run away. Look in the glass, at your serpentine skull And it's gone. Voldy in My Mind with Visions (repeat) Picture yourself in a hall in a basement, Your arms reaching outward to capture the prize. Suddenly you're with your friends in your bedroom With no more herpetical eyes. Ginger, hoping Betsy likes the Beatles From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 7 14:37:36 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:37:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Socks, Jung, and the Dark Lord Message-ID: <410-22005627143736578@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130232 > I also wonder about Tom Riddle, LV, and the Dark Lord. I wonder if > the Dark Lord and LV are the same person. We know that LV is Tom. > But is the DL someone or something else? Maybe the DL is an entity > that takes over a wizard. So in one time it was Grindelwald, and > then he came back through Tom as LV. Scary because if this is true > than if LV is defeated, the DL will come back yet again when another > young wizard comes too close to the dark side. (No Star Wars tie > intended.) > > Tonks_op > ***************************************** Chancie: Hmmm... Your post really made me think, but I did have just a few comments on this. Luckily we know that *WHEN* Harry defeats LV/DL/whatever-else-you-want-to-call-him, he won't "reincarnate" this time, if he indeed do before as you suggest, the prophecy clearly states "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches" so it will indeed be the Dark Lord who is done away with, even if LV is a different persona all together. I'm kind of confused on the whole thing, but would the DL vs. LV be kind of like a possession, or split personality, or what? From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 7 14:55:02 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:55:02 -0700 Subject: Send JKR questions to TLC and Muggle Net!! Message-ID: <410-2200562714552421@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130233 Hi! I just wanted to let you guys know, that MuggleNet and TLC are accepting questions to ask JKR in July when they interview her. They are only accepting questions likely to be answered, and suggest checking the transcripts of past interviews before submitting your question on their forums. This is a part of the post on MuggleNet: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ask JK Rowling a question! As many of you are aware, on July 16, Melissa from TLC and I will be in Scotland interviewing JK Rowling on the day of the release of Half-Blood Prince. We know you're all dying to get a question asked, and while we've got a stockpile of our own questions, we want to be sure that you guys have your voices heard, too. So Melissa and I are both opening threads on our sites' respective forums where you may post questions for JKR that we will consider when drawing up our list. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I just thought some of you might like to submit. Have fun! Chancie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 7 15:00:32 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:00:32 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] --CORRECTION-- Send JKR questions to TLC and Muggle Net!! Message-ID: <410-2200562715032843@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130234 > [Original Message] > From: Chancie > To: HP4GU > Date: 6/7/2005 7:55:37 AM > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Send JKR questions to TLC and Muggle Net!! > > Hi! I just wanted to let you guys know, that MuggleNet and TLC > are accepting questions to ask JKR in July when they interview her. > They are only accepting questions likely to be answered, and suggest > checking the transcripts of past interviews before submitting your > question on their forums. > > This is a part of the post on MuggleNet: > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Ask JK Rowling a question! > As many of you are aware, on July 16, Melissa from TLC and > I will be in Scotland interviewing JK Rowling on the day of the > release of Half-Blood Prince. > > We know you're all dying to get a question asked, and while > we've got a stockpile of our own questions, we want to be sure > that you guys have your voices heard, too. So Melissa and I are > both opening threads on our sites' respective forums where you > may post questions for JKR that we will consider when drawing > up our list. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > I just thought some of you might like to submit. Have fun! > > Chancie > _____________ Sorry, but I should have said "questions NOT likely to be answered in book 6". Also, they will pick the questions by doing a poll of the top 10 questions, and the 3 with the most number of votes will be added to their list of questions to ask JKR. Chancie From k.coble at comcast.net Tue Jun 7 15:34:17 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:34:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130235 On Jun 6, 2005, at 11:23 PM, eggplant107 wrote: > "greg_a126" wrote: > > > In order for this book to entire the > > list of all time classics, good has > > to triumph over evil. That means > > Harry has to beat Voldemort, > > not "tie" him by dying with him. > Eggplant: > I think you're way off the mark with that, most of the really great > classics are tragedies, because it gives the stories a certain > gravitas they would not otherwise have, at least that's what the > ancient Greeks thought and I agree . I think these stories are not structured as a tragedy. The tragic elements are woven throughout, thus there is plenty of gravitas to go around. Not ALL ancient Greek stories are tragic, either. They had comedies. Eggplant: > In Shakespeare's best plays the > hero dies K: Actually, I take issue with that. I don't think the tragedies ARE his best plays. I hate Romeo & Juliet with every fibre of my being. Hamlet is tiresome, and the Scottish Play makes me want to smack people. I LOVE As You Like It, Taming of the Shrew, Midsummer Night's Dream, Twelfth Night, etc. Eggplant: > and they are still enormously popular 400 years later; in > the most profitable movie of all time, Titanic, the hero also dies. K: The most profitable movie ever made was Deep Throat. Plenty of The Little Death in that movie, but I don't think Linda Lovelace dies. (I've never seen it.) The most profitable _mainstream_ movie of all time is _My Big Fat Greek Wedding_, which is a happy story about families and love. I think that a lot of what makes HP popular is that they are stories about family, whether they are families by blood (The Weasleys, The Dursleys) or families by choice (HRH, Gryffindor House, etc.) In an age where our families are getting smaller and more spread out, the books can be a place for children and adults to seek familial companionship. Harry is the readers' surrogate into that world, and to kill him would be a betrayal of the entire series, which appears so far to be about unification. Katherine [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nrenka at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 15:35:07 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:35:07 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) In-Reply-To: <20050607133558.66316.qmail@web86207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130236 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene Mikhlin wrote: > All true, and don't forget the act of sabotage by Sirius! Sirius > undermined Harry's motivation from the get go, treating the idea of > the lessons as Snape's private whim or something. Brilliant, > Sirius, that will really communicate to Harry just how important > Dumbledore finds these lessons. I have a question: since I'm lazy and forgetful, I can't remember any time afterwards when Sirius' admonitions/warnings/'sabotage' recur in Harry's mind. If so, are we perhaps putting too much importance upon it? If JKR never felt the need to bring it up again and thus invoke it as a cause for Harry's attitude, then it's a bit of a leap that we're making between the comment and Harry's actions. Unless, of course, you want to argue that it was an utterly essential component poisoning everything from the beginning, and stuck with Harry throughout. A difficult argument to make when other reasons and motivations are actually stated in the text as important. I'd agree that Harry's motivation isn't top-par, by any means. But if Harry never thinks specifically about Sirius' comments again, who are we to make them into an item of such grand significance, especially above things which actually *do* get multiple mentions in the text? -Nora hopes we get some more information, maybe in interview, about the teaching of Occlumency From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 7 16:28:05 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:28:05 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Occlumency ( was Mental Discipline) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Message 130236 "nrenka" > I have a question: since I'm lazy and forgetful, I can't remember >any time afterwards when Sirius' admonitions/warnings/'sabotage' >recur in Harry's mind. "K": "Yes, said Harry. "Who's going to be teaching me?" Snape raised an eyebrow. "I am," he said. ~snip~ "Why can't Dumbledore teach Harry?" asked Sirius aggressively. "Why you?" ~snip~ "Wait a moment," said Sirius, sitting up straighter in his chair. ~snip~ "If I hear you're using these Occlumency lessons to give Harry a hard time, you'll have me to answer to." oop/ch 24/pgs 520-521/us _____________________________________________________________________ LUPIN: "Harry, I know you don't like Snape, but he is a superb Occlumens and we all --- Sirius included ---want you to learn to protect yourself, so work hard, all right?"~~ oop/ch 24/pg 527/us _____________________________________________________________________ "He told me he'd never teach me Occlumency again," said Harry indifferently, "like that's a big disppointment__" "He WHAT?" shouted Sirius, causing Harry to jump and inhale a mouthful of ashes. "Are you serious, Harry?" said Lupin quickly. "He's stopped giving you lessons?" "Yeah," said Harry, surprised at what he considered a great overreaction. "But it's okay, I don't care, it's a bit of a relief to tell you the __" "I'm coming up there to have a word with Snape!" said Sirius forcefully and he actually made to stand up, but Lupin wrenched him back down again. But Harry, first of all, you're to go back to Snape and tell him that on no account is he to stop giving you lessons Harry, there is nothing so important as you learning Occlumency!" Do you understand me? Nothing! oop/ch 29/pg 672/us _____________________________________________________________________ He (Harry)ended up saying to them truthfully that Sirius wanted Harry to resume Occlumency lessons. oop/ch 30/pg 681/us "K": I'm not commenting on the above, just passing along the quotes I know of. However, I believe there's far more to Occlumency than is talked about on this board. With all that occurs in the lessons what is usually discussed is the 'blame game'. Ah well, I'm content just to wait for HBP. From lebiles at charter.net Tue Jun 7 16:33:26 2005 From: lebiles at charter.net (leb2323) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:33:26 -0000 Subject: Death in HBP - the school song In-Reply-To: <20050607123807.33593.qmail@web32602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mira wrote: > The one thing I am curious about is: will the Weasley > twins still be the last to finish the song, long after > everybody else has become silent? I truly hope Jo will > give us this treat, or at least make other characters > imitate them in fond remembrance. I don't have the book with me so can't confirm this but didn't the twins sing the school song as a funeral dirge? I hope this wasn't foreshadowing the end of Hogwarts (or the twins for that matter)! leb From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 7 16:36:06 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:36:06 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > I have a question: since I'm lazy and forgetful, I can't remember any time afterwards when Sirius' admonitions/warnings/'sabotage' recur in Harry's mind. If so, are we perhaps putting too much importance upon it? If JKR never felt the need to bring it up again and thus invoke it as a cause for Harry's attitude, then it's a bit of a leap that we're making between the comment and Harry's actions. > I'd agree that Harry's motivation isn't top-par, by any means. But if Harry never thinks specifically about Sirius' comments again, who are we to make them into an item of such grand significance, especially above things which actually *do* get multiple mentions in the text? Pippin: Hmmm...."not knowing how" doesn't get a lot of mention in the text either,does it? Seems to me the multiple mentions are on Harry not *wanting* to clear his mind and on the fact that despite Harry apparently doing what he is asked to do over the first few lessons, he finds his sensitivity to Voldemort increasing -- something he *never* tells Snape. But Harry does *not* get more sensitive to _Snape's_ intrusions.The memories Snape is able to access are less and less important to Harry as the lessons progress until finally Snape is only dredging up "a stream of very early memories [Harry] had not even realized he still had" and the memory of the dream about the darkened room which Harry had tried to "push..to the back of his mind." When Snape then tries for the memories Harry *knows* he doesn't want Snape to see, Harry keeps his awareness and is able to consciously fend Snape off. He's learned it, by George -- but it doesn't keep Voldemort out, as the Dark Lord triumphantly demonstrates by sending a broad daylight vision of the corridor into Harry's mind. Snape observes this-- that Harry can block him but not Voldemort, and jumps to the conclusion that Harry isn't trying. *That* was his big mistake, IMO, and if he wasn't so down on Harry he might have seen it -- but I don't think his technique was at fault, just his general attitude towards Harry. The significance of Sirius's warning is that it lent gravity to Ron's suggestion that Snape might be sabotaging the lessons, which Harry tried to use as an excuse for his failure. I have been thinking about JKR's remark that 'destiny' is just a word we use when a choice has dramatic consequences, and thinking that she may have a similar opinion about 'heroism' and 'villainy' or even 'good' and 'evil.' In other words, would we care so much about who was at fault for the failure of the lessons if Sirius hadn't died? Pippin From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 7 13:49:48 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 09:49:48 -0400 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A5A5FC.2010907@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130240 nrenka wrote: >>But working *within the rules of JKR's world* I think Snape, though >>asking a lot of Harry, was not asking the impossible. >> >> > >I don't think he was asking the impossible. I think he was going >about it in a way that takes a lot longer for the student to master, >and is decidedly unhelpful. No supplementary *exercises* with >feedback involved, just vague instructions. No meditation, no >calming exercises, no puzzle solving, nothin'. Just hit the kid and >expect him to respond. > >-Nora is admittedly biased, but does know at least a something about >clearing one's mind and how to teach it Thanks Nora, I think you said better what I was trying to say previously about Snape not teaching well. It's true -- there are exercises to clear one's mind, involving mantras or imagery, etc. One could argue that the 'happy memory' to conjure a Patronus is simply an exercise designed to bring a focussed feleing of happiness, and it is the feeling of happiness itself that permits the Patronus rather than the specific details of the memory. Consequently, Occlumancy involves a focused feeling of calmness, or emptiness, rather than happiness. If you were told "Feel happy" you'd have a hard time. If you were told "Remember when you were happy and concentrate on that", you'd do better. Similarly, "clear your mind of all emotion" is a rather meaningless direction. "Focus your mind on a single number, or a word, or an image, let all other thoughts wash around it, just focus on that one thing". It's still hard, but at least it is a tangible goal. Of course, there is the issue of Harry's successful resistance of the Imperius curse -- which, it should be noted, Moody did not give any real 'instructions' on how to do, just 'try to resist'. This is something, though, for which the secret is not a feeling (like Happiness) or a state of being (like Calm and Emotionless), but more of a character trait -- Stubborness! It is similar in that all of those qualities could be thought of as 'mental states', so Harry has shown some ability in controlling his mental states. Arguably, perhaps Snape thought that because Harry was a 'natural' at resisting Imperius (Stubborness) that the same would be true for Occlumency. Unfortunately, Stubborness is a totally different kind of concentration than Emptiness - you might say Stubborness requires tension, and Emptiness requires release. One was easy for Harry, the other quite difficult. I do think he'll master it in the next book, once he starts to calm down. We can argue about WHY he was over-excited in OOTP, but the fact is, whatever the reason, whether justified or not, he WAS, and that's why he had a hard time. heather the buzzard From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 7 16:36:56 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:36:56 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130241 Katherine Coble wrote: > I think these stories are not structured as a tragedy. Perhaps the first few books are not tragedies, although there are very dark elements in them; but in book 4 the bad guy wins, and at the end of book 5 the surviving good guys limp home with the hero in a deep depression. Not exactly a comedy . > to kill him would be a betrayal of the entire series To be conventional and predictable would betray the entire series. They may talk about it but in their heart of hearts most people cannot imagine Rowling killing Harry, and that is exactly why she should. Eggplant From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Tue Jun 7 17:22:25 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:22:25 -0000 Subject: Snape the Zen Master/ was Re: Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130242 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee Daniels" > I think that a Zen Master sometimes hits his students too. So all in > all what I am saying here is that Harry's training in Occlumency > probably was attempted in the correct manner. I think Snape is a > perfectionist and takes pride in doing whatever he does well. He is > probably a good Occlumency teacher, a good Zen Master, but Harry and > we the readers just don't *get* it. Gerry Funny, I was thinking exactly the opposite. Snape is very good in Occlumency and quite probably a natural at it. Being good at a subject does not make you a good teacher, quite often the opposite. Because everything comes natural, you 1)don't see where a pupil will have difficulties. Also, you often do what you do almost instinctively, which means 2)you have never thought consciously about *how* you do it, so you have no clear way of explaining it. Now compare how Snape teaches Occlumency with how he teaches Potions. In both cases he gives instructions: what do students have to do. Does he explain technique: no. With potions this is not necessary. Because the techniques in making potions are familiar. They are cutting, stirring etc. Nothing anybody does not understand, though doing it correctly is something else. With clearing your mind, suddenly it seems to be different. How do you clear your mind? My guess is that for Snape this is something he immediately understands, and does. He does not explain any further because he never needed it himself. And he cannot imagine anybody else needing it, as he also cannot imagine a first year not understanding what 'cut this root in 1 inch pieces' means. Emptying himself of all emotions, for example for Snape means repressing them, I think. And as with a lot of people who are bullied, he has trained himself not to let the bullies see what he does not want them to see, but this is a subconscious way of training. I guess he uses the same technique for his emotions in Occlumency. And has no idea that he actually has been training all his years in Hogwarts, and probably even before. Gerry From nrenka at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 17:23:38 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:23:38 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130243 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > Hmmm...."not knowing how" doesn't get a lot of mention in the text > either, does it? Ch 24: "Well, for a first attempt that was not as poor as it might have been", said Snape, raising his wand once more. 'You managed to stop me eventually, though you wasted time and energy shouting. You must remain focused. Repel me with your brain and you will not need to resort to your wand." "I'm trying", said Harry angrily, "but you're not telling me how!" "Manners, Potter", said Snape dangerously. "Now, I want you to close your eyes." Harry threw him a filthy look before doing as he was told. He did not like the idea of standing there with his eyes shut while Snape faced him, carrying a wand. "Clear your mind, Potter", said Snape's cold voice. "Let go of all emotion..." But Harry's anger at Snape continued to pound through his veins like venom. Let go of his anger? He could as easily detach his legs... "You're not doing it, Potter... you will need more discipline than this... focus, now..." Harry tried to empty his mind, tried not to think, or remember, or feel... ------ Sounds like Harry could use some useful discussion of method rather than the generic "focus, clear your mind" mantra. He *asks* how to do this, and all he gets is the 'close your eyes' and then comments that he's not focusing. How do you focus? How do you let go of anger? Those are all valid questions packed into the "you're not telling me how". > I have been thinking about JKR's remark that 'destiny' is just a > word we use when a choice has dramatic consequences, and > thinking that she may have a similar opinion about 'heroism' > and 'villainy' or even 'good' and 'evil.' In other words, would > we care so much about who was at fault for the failure of > the lessons if Sirius hadn't died? Probably not. But in some ways (it's not the only factor leading to that outcome, of course) it's the culmination of the pattern of Snape's actions towards Harry. The animosity begun by Snape and continued and not resolved finally exploded into something with tragic results for Harry. Harry doesn't trust Snape because of how Snape has behaved towards him, and all those everyday little bits add up over time. And the most devoted fans of the good professor wonder why JKR keeps warning them and asking why people love him? :) -Nora is, of course, open to all options but doesn't believe in betting against the author in a WiP From nrenka at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 17:38:06 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:38:06 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Occlumency ( was Mental Discipline) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Message 130236 > > "nrenka" > >> I have a question: since I'm lazy and forgetful, I can't remember >> any time afterwards when Sirius' admonitions/warnings/'sabotage' >> recur in Harry's mind. I was thinking of, given my phrasing, the *negative* implications. Sirius is rather supportive of the efforts in all of those later citations. Especially when he hears that Snape has ended the lessons- -he really wants Harry to start doing them again. This speaks against the idea that Sirius' influence was a continual negative presence; there's only the initial one-off which Harry doesn't think about again (as it's not mentioned again). Now *Ron* is rather negative in his evaluation of the effects, but that's a different character with different importance and motivation. > However, I believe there's far more to Occlumency than is talked > about on this board. With all that occurs in the lessons what is > usually discussed is the 'blame game'. > > Ah well, I'm content just to wait for HBP. I do think we've all argued ourselves into a standstill and need some sheer clarification of method, the nuts and bolts. I have a model I like, but there are so many factual questions to ask... -Nora stops posting and gets back to writing notes, but wanted to clarify her position there From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 17:55:34 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:55:34 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130245 Katherine Cobble: to kill him would be a betrayal of the entire series Eggplant: To be conventional and predictable would betray the entire series. They may talk about it but in their heart of hearts most people cannot imagine Rowling killing Harry, and that is exactly why she should. Alla: Oh, Eggplant. Agree with you as I am on so many points, I do disagree on this one. I mean, it is no secret that I would LIKE for Harry to live at the end of the series, but I also do not think that not killing him will mean conventional and predictable ending of the series. I am pretty sure that Rowling can come with something cool and let Harry live. There are SO many possibilities, IMO. But I share the POV that to defeat Voldie, Harry must defeat his fear of death first, to be able to go into last battle with the thought that he may die and willing to do so. I said it before, but I am saying it again. I of course cannot predict how series end in details, but for Harry I do predict symbolic death and resurrection, whether it will be using phoenix symbolism, Snape's potion, or something like that. Besides, speaking about commercial implications of killing Harry so to speak ( NO, I don't think that JKR cares much about commercial implications , I think she cares about telling a story she wants to tell first and foremost and so she should) But let's pretend that it is at least on the back of her mind, after all, if she wanted to tell a story ONLY for herself, she would not have published books in the first place, right? I already mentioned the idea that if Harry dies at the end, I will most likely not reread the series , or at least book 7. NO, I will not think of them as "bad literature", I will not also think that author should please me, etc,etc. But as a reader the thought of rereading seven books where I expected happy or semihappy ending for the main character for few years and no happy ending would follow will be a bit depressing for me. NOT every reader thinks like me, but I am pretty sure that some do, so those readers when say introducing books to their children (and I would LOVE for my child to decide for himself whether to read Harry or not) would mention that main character dies at the end. I think that not everybody would want to start reading the books , knowing that. Again, this is just my musing. I am sure many many people could care less whether Harry lives or dies at the end, so just accept it as my opinion and my opinion only. Alla. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 19:16:38 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:16:38 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > To be conventional and predictable would betray the entire series. > They may talk about it but in their heart of hearts most people cannot > imagine Rowling killing Harry, and that is exactly why she should. > Tonks: I agree that the ending can not be predictable. I also think that either DD or Harry must die, but not both. It would just be too much of a blow if they both died. I think that either DD dies and then Harry has a near death experience in which he dies and comes back to later marry Ginny, have 12 children and become Minister of Magic. Or DD lives and Harry dies. As much as I love DD and will be much more depressed if DD dies over Harry, I suspect that the *other* prophey will be true. That is the one where Harry lives, marries, has 12 children and become MoM. So a near death experience might work here just fine. But the books will not be the same to me if DD dies. I don't care that much about Harry, to tell the truth. Tonks_op From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 18:51:19 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:51:19 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130247 Katherine Cole: >>to kill him would be a betrayal of the entire series Eggplant: >>To be conventional and predictable would betray the entire series. They may talk about it but in their heart of hearts most people cannot imagine Rowling killing Harry, and that is exactly why she should. Juli now: Sure killing Harry would be a HUGE shock for all of us, specially since the books are called "Harry Potter", I mean when does the main character dies? only in lame movies, in good movies the star gets to live, even if he/she's all alone in the world. And I believe this whole series are "good". I would hate it if Harry was to die in HBP, then the seventh book couldn't even be called HP and xxx, it'd have to be another title (Ron Weasley & Hermione Granger and the xxx). So my bet is Harry will live, but his best friends may not. Juli From julierice8 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 11:32:13 2005 From: julierice8 at yahoo.com (Julie Rice) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OP members contacting each other In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050607113214.15298.qmail@web50511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130248 Tamara wrote: > Has it been figured out yet what the secret way is > that OP members use to contact each other? JKR said it > has already been used in a previous book. Julie: When JKR mentioned that, I immediately thought of the mirror that Harry smashed. Maybe that was the way they communicated and just always had one with them, like a cell phone. Harry was told only to use it in an emergency (or something like that) because Sirius didn't want him keeping it with him all the time and "listening in" on Order stuff. From wherr009 at umn.edu Tue Jun 7 00:58:07 2005 From: wherr009 at umn.edu (wherr009) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:58:07 -0000 Subject: My Pet Snape Theory (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130249 rosered: > Enter Snape - the only person in the Death Eaters he knows well >(and possible knows of) because he spent so much time with the > people that tortured him in school. He tells Snape what has > happened, then tells Snape the Secret. > > This is how the white hats know that the Potter's have been > attacked and killed, and baby Harry is still alive. How else > could they have found out? It wasn't going to be on the news > because nobody could see the place! Nobody could find it even if > they knew where it was until the secret was told and the > information was processed. The only person we are aware of that > was in a position to get the Secret told to him was Snape. > > So now, Snape has a choice. He can act like nothing has happened > which is in his own best interest, or he can save baby Harry. > Whatever caused his change of heart, he had to be the one to pull > baby Harry out of the flaming wreckage because he couldn't tell > anyone where Harry was, and anyone else who knew would have no > interest in saving him. wherr009: Very good theory, but I have a couple of questions for people a little bit more in the known than I. Who performed the Fidelis (sp?) charm to hide the potters? Was it James or Lily or someone else? If it was James or Lily then when they died is it possible that the charm was lifted and everybody could see GH? Just a couple of things I am curious about. wherr009 From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 7 20:19:34 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:19:34 -0000 Subject: Death in HBP - the school song In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130250 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mira wrote: > > The one thing I am curious about is: will the Weasley > > twins still be the last to finish the song, long after > > everybody else has become silent? I truly hope Jo will > > give us this treat, or at least make other characters > > imitate them in fond remembrance. > > I don't have the book with me so can't confirm this but didn't the > twins sing the school song as a funeral dirge? I hope this wasn't > foreshadowing the end of Hogwarts (or the twins for that matter)! > leb Geoff: They did indeed. From canon: 'Everybody finished the song at different times. At last, only the Weasley twins were left singing along to a very slow funeral march. Dumbledore conducted their last few lines with his wand and when they had finished, he was one of those who clapped loudest.' (Philosopher's Stone "The Sorting Hat" p.95 UK edition) From muggles at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 17:04:01 2005 From: muggles at gmail.com (RR) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:04:01 -0000 Subject: Who is on the Wal-Mart HBP countdown display? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130251 gelite67 wrote: > Forgive me if this is old news, but I saw the HBP countdown > display at my local Wal-Mart yesterday. It is the Pensieve scene > but shows more at the bottom than what I've seen online. > > To the left, it shows a boy and girl, whom I assume are Hermione > and Ron. On the bottom right, it shows a girl with long, distinctly > red hair. I can only assume this is Ginny, Hi there, my vote goes to Ginny too, I knew she was going to be a more important character. Though some people say she may be Lily, because of the red hair and because she seems a bit less "clear" than the other girl and the boy, like a ghost or something. But I still think it's Ginny. RR From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 7 20:35:14 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:35:14 -0000 Subject: OP members contacting each other In-Reply-To: <20050607113214.15298.qmail@web50511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130252 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Julie Rice wrote: > Tamara wrote: > > Has it been figured out yet what the secret way is > > that OP members use to contact each other? JKR said it > > has already been used in a previous book. > > Julie: > > When JKR mentioned that, I immediately thought of the > mirror that Harry smashed. Maybe that was the way > they communicated and just always had one with them, > like a cell phone. Harry was told only to use it in > an emergency (or something like that) because Sirius > didn't want him keeping it with him all the time and > "listening in" on Order stuff. I'm afraid JKR has said that this can't be the case. Taking this from JKR's webiste, rumour section: "The Order of the Phoenix communicates using chocolate frog cards "This is such a great idea that I was in two minds whether to shoot it down; however, *a chocolate frog card, or any object that would have to be remembered and carried on the person, would always be vulnerable to loss, destruction or trickery*. The Order communicates in a way that requires *nothing but a wand*. You saw the Order's method of communication in use even before you knew about the existence of the Order; it was employed by an Order member." JLV xx From irishwynch at aol.com Tue Jun 7 18:01:24 2005 From: irishwynch at aol.com (irishwynch at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:01:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) Message-ID: <1f8.b538968.2fd73af4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130253 SSSusan: > You see that scene as Lupin hiding BEHIND Neville in order to > embarrass Snape. I see it as Lupin helping Neville STEP UP to > take on Snape and return a bit of the humiliation Snape's forced > him to take over the years. While I think Lupin has some concerns > where cowardice is involved, this scene never struck me as > cowardly at all. Marla: I completely agree with SSS. When Lupin told Snape how confident he was with Neville's ablility he was standing up for him and at the same time making a point of letting Snape know, as well as the other students, how he disapproved of Snape's method's of teaching. Subtle yet effective. Marla From jellocat at comcast.net Tue Jun 7 20:28:27 2005 From: jellocat at comcast.net (jellocat at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:28:27 +0000 Subject: Will Harry die or not? Message-ID: <060720052028.28913.42A6036B0008A3BD000070F122070009539B0E0C0104040A06@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130254 eggplant107 that stated the following: > In Shakespeare's best plays the hero dies and they are still > enormously popular 400 years later; in the most profitable movie > of all time, Titanic, the hero also dies. I think Harry will die > too. greg_a126: > >JKR has to know that. eggplant107: > JKR knows that if she kills Harry it will be extraordinarily > controversial, people will say she is traumatizing children, there > will be gnashing of teeth and riots in the street. How could any > author resist doing that, she's need a will of iron. I'd like to add just a few cents to the discussion of whether Harry dies or not but please forgive me for not being able to quote too many sources (because I'm at work...). I'm hoping he lives. I'm hoping he lives and the end of book 7 is left wide open - left to our imaginations as to what Harry ends up doing in the future. I think killing him would be too cliche at this point. For one thing, these are children's stories, as JKR has stated herself, though easily gobbled up by adults as well, as all great stories are universal in regards to the ages they reach out to. Killing Harry would be incredibly traumatic to children all over the world who look up to Harry as a kid that fought back the forces of evil and won by his own accord. To me, these stories show stages we go through from child to adult - the loss of a parent, becoming resourceful in the world, finding friendship and loyalty, fighting for what you believe in, discovering love, standing up for yourself, fighting depression, and so on. Harry's death would simply obliterate, to me, JKR's seeming stance on maintaining decorum, strength and courage in the face of all that's nasty and bitter in the world and finding solace in friends, family and your own convictions. I think these stories are much different from the usual hero archetype we all grew up with. Yes, many Shakespearian heroes die but because of a tragic misuse of power, usually. To me, these stories of Harry are born of hope and what good would the death of its protagonist do to keep that hope alive in children who look to Harry as someone they can emulate. I, for one, really hope that the trio survive, intact, simply because their courage is symbolic, to me, of human courage in all respects. And killing any part of that would be like turning off a light on possibility. OH: Had to laugh when I read Katherine Coble's msg. Deep Throat as the most profitable movie ever and LL doesn't die - LOL!!!!! Thanks for that! I agree entirely with you, Katherine, about the themes of family, etc. killing off Harry would totally be a betrayal of the entire series. Eggplant also stated: > "To be conventional and predictable would betray the entire > series. They may talk about it but in their heart of hearts most > people cannot imagine Rowling killing Harry, and that is exactly > why she should." See, I think the opposite - killing him would be too predictable and cliche, at that. jellocat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From richlauraelaina at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 7 20:52:22 2005 From: richlauraelaina at sbcglobal.net (richandlaura1) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:52:22 -0000 Subject: Repost of " Dumbledore "wrote" Book 1" by Dicentra ( LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130255 > Alla wrote: > > So, I was thinking of Phoenixgod argument that Dumbledore changed > in book 5, because he suddenly became very protective over Harry > while in all other books he let him have some very dangerous > adventures. > (snip) > And yes, when I think of Dumbledore of PS/SS, who let eleven year > old face Voldemort, even if in his weakened stage. I have a VERY > hard time reconciling him with Dumbledore of OOP. I enjoyed reading all of Alla's comments and Dicentra's post and I just want to make one short point about Dumbledore's seemingly inconsistent behavior concerning Harry's adventures in SS and OoTP. JKR's writing in OoTP explains how Dumbledore's feelings for Harry's personal well-being have grown since he entered the WW 5 years ago. In Dumbledore's dialogue/monologue at the end of OoTP, he admits to his feelings getting in the way of a 'plan'. He states that in the beginning, his arrangements for Harry were based on carrying out this plan. Over time, his affection grew and now it isn't as simple to follow through with decisions-for-the-greater good that put Harry in harm's way or make Harry uncomfortable. (That's the general point. Sorry, you'll have to look up the exact canon yourself.) I think you'll find if you reread the last chapters of OoTP you'll be able to reconcile today's Dumbledore with the Dumbledore seen in SS. Thanks for listening; that's all I wanted to say. Laura From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 7 21:48:23 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:48:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest: References: <1118081747.2617.64035.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000801c56baa$a4525a40$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 130256 Oh go on then... >Compulsory Predictions: >1. Who will be the most major character to die? My personal money would go on Percy and Arabella. But in the light of recent speculation, I don't think we'll be saying hello to Dumbledore at the beginning of book 7 >2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," >describe more.) No one real. A symbol, who knows, possibly alchemical. Hans may know that, being the resident expert >3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated >and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She doesn't have one >4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Maclaggan. Felix Felicis is a spell designed to get Harry to get a grip and stop whingeing. >5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I'd like to say Luna, because Harry needs to get a line to his intuitive side. But I think it'll be no one. >6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Wouldn't it be nice if it was Lucius Malfoy? But I suspect someone innocuous like Madam Bones >7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Like everyone else, I'm going for a pensieve >8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Only if Snape continues to teach it. There's far too much fun in the tension between the two. >9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Probably not. Only if Snape stops teaching it.. >10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Passed Astronomy because the examiner took account of the special circumstances in the practical. Failed History for the opposite reason. Failed Divination because he's no bloody good at it. Passed all the others. Optional Predictions (which sound a bit like Harry and Ron's divination homework) 1. The Hogwarts elves, goaded beyond endurance by Hermione's antics, go on strike and will only return to work when Hermione is forced to write with Umbridge's black quill, the words "only a stupid naive Muggle would think that slavery was the relation between elves and wizards" until she believes it. 2. Harry finds and reads Snape's memoirs. "All my life I have walked in shadow. I have known grief, and pain, and rage, and endless bitterness." Finding out the truth, he realises that he's spent the previous books being an arrogant, precious, whiny little boy who's had it really good compared to his teacher. 3. As Dumbledore dies, he tells Harry "I'm sorry, I never gave you any real choices but put you in the position where you had to act as you did all the way through. It was to make you into the weapon that had the only chance of defeating Voldemort. There is just one spell that could help you, part of the ancient magic that saved you as a baby. That spell is ... arrrrgh..." "That's a funny name for a spell" said Harry, "oh..." 4. A mysterious new elf named Kneasy joins the Hogwarts establishment 5. Trelawney proves to be ESE hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 7 21:53:36 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:53:36 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: <1f8.b538968.2fd73af4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130257 > Marla: > > I completely agree with SSS. When Lupin told Snape how confident he was with Neville's ablility he was standing up for him and at the same time making a point of letting Snape know, as well as the other students, how he disapproved of Snape's method's of t eaching. Subtle yet effective. Pippin: First of all, it's not Lupin's business to approve or disapprove of Snape's methods. Last I looked, Dumbledore, not Lupin, was headmaster. Second, the distinction that's being lost is that Neville has a problem with the real Snape *and* the boggart-Snape. Lupin helped him deal with boggart-Snape, at the cost of worsening the situation with the real Snape. With Harry, he did the reverse. Harry was ashamed over not getting to face a boggart in class, but he could have imagined the dementor, or even Voldemort, tripping over its/his robes (he does this when he faces a boggart dementor in GoF.) That would have spared Harry feeling that Lupin thought he couldn't hack it, but it wouldn't have helped him one bit against a real dementor -- or the real Voldemort. Neville might have been ashamed if Lupin had stepped in front of him and said, "I'll deal with it," forcing the boggart to take another form, but it would have spared Neville having to deal with an aggravated Snape all year. I think we can all agree that aggravated!Snape was a bigger problem for Neville than being ashamed of not dealing with a boggart would have been. Then, if Lupin really had wanted to help Neville get over his fear of the real Snape, he would have let Neville practice potions with a boggart-Snape glaring and sneering until it didn't bother him anymore. In response to Potioncat, I sure hope Lupin had some contingency plans in case somebody conjured an inappropriate boggart and their imagination failed them, ala Molly...but there's more than one way to skin a boggart. Lupin forces one back with his wand, and makes another explode without using riddikulus. He could have shown Neville how to do one of those techniques instead. Pippin From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 21:59:37 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:59:37 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130258 >>Betsy Hp: >So I think that best way to measure the efficacy of Snape's methods for teaching Occlumency is to compare them with Lupin's methods for teaching the Patronus. That way we're staying within the world JKR has created and the rules she has given us.< >>Nora: >Okay--we have two massively different things. :) >First of all, *there is an incantation* that one must use. There's no 'Expecto Patronum!' focus-word for Occlumency.< Betsy Hp: But, as Lupin says, the incantation "will only work if you are concentrating, with all your might, on a single, very happy memory." (PoA scholastic hardback p. 237) Yes, there is no single focus-word for Occlumency (I think that's part of what makes it such advanced magic) but the call for mental focus and discipline are relatively the same. There *are* differences, but I wouldn't catagorize them as massive. >>Nora: >A Patronus has this very specific goal. Occlumency has a nebulous, difficult goal, and is more a state of being than a momentary expenditure of effort.< Betsy Hp: Yet, it's not merely a happy memory that will do the trick. It's needs to be a powerfully happy memory. And you have to be able to dredge it up while in the midst of a mental barrage of decidedly *un*happy thoughts. But Lupin doesn't give Harry any direction as what *type* of happy memory to go for. Just as Snape doesn't give Harry directions on how exactly to focus. Both teachers merely tell Harry he has to do better. The reason for this, I think, is that mental discipline is already present in a wizard or witch. After all, they manifest their gifts by displaying certain mental powers; that which they wish to have happen, happens. (The reappearing hair, the shrinking sweater, the ability to bounce.) >>Betsy Hp: >I've read *tons* of posts that talk about how hard it is to empty your mind, but isn't it just as hard, or nearly as hard, to think of a happy thought when you're in the midst of a clinical depression (which is essentially the affect dementors have on people)? And not just a happy thought, but a truly *powerful* happy thought?< >>Nora: >No. :) >In part, it's because a happy memory has to be pulled out of you but is then projected outwards, into a physical manifestation, something that you can see. Clearing your mind is a purely internal thing, and takes far, far more getting together with yourself than anything that goes outward. Harry can make a Patronus under intense pressure, but I don't think he's shown himself able to do Occlumency under the same.< Betsy Hp: Okay, you'll have to quote canon if I'm going to be persuaded here. Because Harry *never* has a strong enough happy thought. Not in PoA, anyway. Even the thought of going to live with Sirius produces a mere mist. Nothing is pulled from Harry. Even with the incantation he was very nearly food for the dementors. It was only the paradox of time travel that caused the Patronus to form (the happiness of knowing he could do it, I guess, or maybe that *he* was his father). As to Occlumency, Harry *does* perform under intense pressure. As Pippin points out in post # 130239 Harry succeeds in keeping Snape out of his mind. He's even able to take it a step farther and enter into Snape's mind. And Snape praises him for his efforts. It's only when it comes to Voldemort's visions, which Voldemort has cunningly made to be as attractive to Harry as he can, that Harry fails. Which means, to my mind, that the failure isn't Harry's Occlumency skills. >>Nora: >No supplementary *exercises* with feedback involved, just vague instructions. No meditation, no calming exercises, no puzzle solving, nothin'. Just hit the kid and expect him to respond.< Betsy Hp: No exercises? Nora, Snape assigns Harry nightly exercises. That Harry chooses not to do them is not really Snape's fault. I think you're still looking at this as a muggle discipline, and it's not. >> -Nora is admittedly biased, but does know at least a something about clearing one's mind and how to teach it< Betsy Hp: Not to wizards and witches, you don't. Unless you've been holding back on us and are actually a member of the WW. :) >>Jen: >The bottom line is, when faced with a hundred dementors gliding across the lake Harry was able to produce a fully-formed corporeal Patronus. When faced with intrusions by the Dark Lord into his mind, Harry was unable to use Occlumency to block them.< Betsy Hp: But it doesn't necessarily follow that the teacher alone is to blame. At least, not for his techniques. Because Harry *does* learn to push those out of his mind that he doesn't want there. Or he gets a good start on it, at least. I again point towards Pippin's post. The breakdown seems to occur with motivation. And yes, I do agree that Snape has some culpability here, as does Dumbledore, and as does Sirius. All three allowed Voldemort an in. Dumbledore did so by keeping secrets from Harry, Snape did so by helping Dumbledore keep his secrets, and Sirius did so by implying that the Occlumency lessons were not all that important. (Harry was surprised that his "bad boy" act - the lessons were boring, no big loss - didn't please his Godfather, who'd been egging him on to be a bad boy from almost the beginning of OotP.) >>Jen: >Oh, I definitely think Harry is capable of learning Occlumency. Unfortunately, that's the single most powerful argument against Snape's effectiveness as a teacher for this particular student. Harry *is* capable of enormous discipline, he proved that by throwing off the Imperius and in the Priori Incantatem scene. Therefore, the problem in learning Occlumency had to be one of the factors at play besides Harry's ability. Snape's teaching style, Harry's motivation, intrusions by LV into his mind--all probably affected his ability to learn.< Betsy Hp: I agree with all three of those factors. I would say that Voldemort's intrusion probably had the biggest impact because it also affected Harry's motivation. Snape's teaching style (or possibly just the fact that Snape was the teacher) did factor into the failure. I'm sure Voldemort tweaked it a bit but Harry's distrust (a somewhat illogical distrust, fed by Sirius) of Snape was not a help. However, I think what Snape tells Harry to do, the instructions he gives are about what Harry would have received from any other teacher. (This will be an easy theory to test with the next book, if Harry continues Occlumency lessons under Dumbledore.) And I think Harry's abilities only added to Snape's frustration. As you said, Harry had already proven himself capable of great focus and mental discipline, with the Patronus, the repelling of the Imperius curse, and the showdown with Voldemort at the end of GoF (which Snape may well have witnessed). That his mental discipline was so flightly when it came to keeping Voldemort out of his head (something that should have seemed an obvious goal) must have driven Snape crazy. >>Jen: >And regarding mental discipline, I think Lupin and Snape *both* show signs of having excellent mental and emotional control. I find it interesting that those two not only survived the first war, but managed to become very skillful and powerful wizards along the way (I believe this is how Rowling is presenting them).< Betsy Hp: Oh I totally agree. And if Harry could learn from both of them he'll be quite a formidable wizard. It's part of the reason I really, really, really, hope Pippin is wrong about ESE!Lupin. I'd like both wizards to have Harry's back. (I really wish we could have witnessed Lupin's discussion with Snape regarding the Occlumency lessons. How did it go, what was discussed, how did it conclude? I want to know!) Betsy Hp (a LOON! Yay!) From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Jun 7 22:14:11 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:14:11 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A61C33.2030203@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130259 nrenka wrote: > > I have a question: since I'm lazy and forgetful, I can't remember any > time afterwards when Sirius' admonitions/warnings/'sabotage' recur in > Harry's mind. I could argue that these warnings worked on subconscious level. The first time Harry entered the lesson, he already didn't want to be there. Before Snape did or say anything. But I'm ready to postpone the verdict for now. Let's hope there is more information about Occlumency in book 6, or an interview. Irene From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 7 22:33:03 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:33:03 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130260 Pippin wrote: > In response to Potioncat, I sure hope Lupin had some contingency > plans in case somebody conjured an inappropriate boggart and their > imagination failed them, ala Molly...but there's more than one way to > skin a boggart. Lupin forces one back with his wand, and makes > another explode without using riddikulus. He could have shown > Neville how to do one of those techniques instead. Potioncat: I've had to remind myself that this is fiction, and JKR or any author, could ignore certain possibilities, but I've thought this too. Neville's fear of Snape is played for humor in this chapter, but what if it had been a real, more personal fear? What if the biggest fear was being hurt by a parent? Or being afraid of a parent, or a classmate? I thought that before OoP, and once we saw Molly's Boggart I wondered to myself, how could you possibly Riddikulus that away! Suddenly I have the answer. Lupin should have spoken with each student privately before class. And possibly worked with students privately. Of course, that's from inside looking out, as if these were real people. I think JKR wrote this chapter to cover several things at once. We saw how to counter a Boggart, JKR got to stick it to Snape without really sticking it to Snape, and she created some comic relief, for us and for the characters. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 23:05:41 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:05:41 -0000 Subject: Harry's Shadow (was:Re: Socks, Jung, and the Dark Lord) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130261 >>Tonks: >I am also beginning to wonder about Jung. I am not a Jungian. My training was more Freudian. I wonder if one could make a case for LV being Harry shadow side?< Betsy Hp: I'm not an expert on either discipline. What I know I learned for the purpose of literary criticism, and that was a while ago. I do recall that Jung had theories I liked (mainly because they tied so beautifully into universal myth ideas). But as far as shadows go, I don't think Voldemort is Harry's shadow. I think perhaps Tom Riddle played the role of shadow to Harry for a bit in CoS. He was the evil opposite of Harry in so many ways. But Harry faced and destroyed him at the end of CoS, so I don't think Tom is a factor anymore. Honestly, I think Draco Malfoy is more Harry's shadow. He's the first peer wizard Harry meets. He's the face of the house Harry almost joined, and therefore represents aspects of Harry that Harry would rather deny having - ambition, cunning, pride. Harry uses Draco as his moral measuring stick. When he's working through his feelings on Ron being made prefect instead of him Harry wonders if he's "as arrogant as Draco Malfoy".[OotP scholastic hardback p.166] But Draco could also represent the strengths of Slytherin as listed by Dumbledore in CoS: resourcefulness, determination, independent thought (or a "certain disregard for the rules"). Not that Draco himself is a perfect representation of those strengths, but that for Harry to see the good in his own Slytherin side he'll need to acknowledge that there *is* good in Slytherin - or good in Draco. And so I wonder if Draco doesn't represent something Harry will need to embrace in order to become a man. In a sense, since Harry killed off the truly evil side of Slytherin (Tom Riddle) maybe he's now more open to harnessing the good side of Slytherin. (Will Harry have to face and destroy the evil side of Gryffindor? Who would represent that particular foe? Has Peter Pettigrew already played that part?) I think Voldemort is more the evil father to Dumbledore's good father. And Harry, as he grows into manhood is choosing which role- model to follow. Does he emulate Voldemort or Dumbledore? In a sense Voldemort refused to embrace his Gryffindor side (the side of him that loved his mother, or didn't fear death?). Whereas Dumbledore, by working so well with Phineas Nigellus, has embraced his Slytherin side. It's possible for Harry to become either of those men and the coming of age factor of the books could be represented in Harry's struggle to become a good man. I think the struggle between Snape and Sirius is also interesting, as it applies to Harry's development. This may be more Freudian, because the mother and the father are involved. But Snape seems to have been hurt by a bad father, and Sirius seems to have been hurt (and ulitimately killed - Bellatrix as Black matriarch) by a bad mother. Harry may need to come to terms with both men's weaknesses to fully grow. (If Lupin is not ESE then he may represent someone who's come to terms with both mother and father and therefore someone who could help Harry in this aspect of his journey.) I'm looking at this in a symbolic fashion, and I may not be making any sense, but it's stuff I've been kicking around in my mind. (Scary, huh?) Betsy Hp, who's terribly afraid that none of this made any sense. From vloe at dallasnews.com Tue Jun 7 22:07:40 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (firebird) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:07:40 -0000 Subject: Who is on the HPP Wal-Mart countdown display Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130262 gelite67 wrote: > Forgive me if this is old news, but I saw the HBP countdown > display at my local Wal-Mart yesterday. It is the Pensieve scene > but shows more at the bottom than what I've seen online. > > To the left, it shows a boy and girl, whom I assume are Hermione > and Ron. On the bottom right, it shows a girl with long, distinctly > red hair. I can only assume this is Ginny ... Firebird now: I think it's Lily. You'll notice the Dark Mark in the sky. I think the scene Harry and DD are observing in the pensieve(with Ron and Hermione observing them observing it) is the night Lily and James died. That's why the column is between R/Hr and Lily -- they're not physically present at the same time and place. From rosered2318 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 21:33:14 2005 From: rosered2318 at yahoo.com (rosered2318) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:33:14 -0000 Subject: My Pet Snape Theory (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130263 wherr009: > Who performed the Fidelis (sp?) charm to hide the potters? Was it > James or Lily or someone else? If it was James or Lily then when > they died is it possible that the charm was lifted and everybody > could see GH? Just a couple of things I am curious about. That is a very good point! As I recall, it has not been said who performed the charm, and we have not been told whether or not the charm lifts if the performer dies. Anyone have any canon evidence for either? Rose From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 23:35:55 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050607233555.95735.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130264 > Irene Mikhlin wrote: > > All true, and don't forget the act of sabotage by Sirius! Sirius > undermined Harry's motivation from the get go, treating the idea > of the lessons as Snape's private whim or something. Brilliant, > Sirius, that will really communicate to Harry just how important > Dumbledore finds these lessons. Actually, upon re-reading the chapter, I wonder if Sirius was jealous that someone else was involved in teaching Harry something important. That it was Snape of all people just made it worse, but the spurt of resentment would have existed no matter who it was. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 00:34:21 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:34:21 -0000 Subject: Luna and Viktor SHIP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130265 I've been out of touch a while and haven't read all the posts I missed. :( So please excuse me if this is a repeat or off topic. I've been rereading GOF. I really like Viktor Krum. IMHO, he may be the HBP. Maybe! :) I have no backup for that except that JKR created an interesting character and the fact that Hermione is still writing to him in OOTP may indicate a reappearance in Books 6 or 7. Especially if you believe in the two book rule. (Appears first in Book 4, then maybe Book 6) So I was thinking, what if Krum comes back to Hogwarts. Maybe he needs remedial Charms work or something. Maybe as a lab assistant. While there he trys to get closer to Hermione, but she finally has to tell him she just wants to be friends. (cause I go for the Hermione/Ron SHIP). In the mean time Ron is having fits. (chuckle, chuckle). Then Viktor meets Luna. Wouldn't Luna and Viktor make an interesting couple? He's so dark and brooding, she's so wacky. What fun! Anyway it's just a thought. Bonnie From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 01:12:38 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:12:38 -0000 Subject: Ending the Series Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130266 Alla said: > Snip> >But I share the POV that to defeat Voldie, Harry must defeat his fear >of death first, to be able to go into last battle with the thought >that he may die and willing to do so. Bonnie: If I remember correctly, Harry has been ready to die several times. In the graveyard scene at the end of GOF Harry decides to go down fighting. That decision to fight is what ultimately saved him when LV and Harry's wands connect. Also, at the battle at the MOM when LV has possessed Harry, Harry decides he wouldn't mind dying, then he could "see Sirius again. That's one of his traits that I like. He isn't afraid. I do agree that JKR will come up with a really good ending. She may well wow us all. From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 01:19:29 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:19:29 -0000 Subject: OP members contacting each other Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130267 Was quoted: I'm afraid JKR has said that this can't be the case. Taking this from JKR's webiste, rumour section: "The Order of the Phoenix communicates using chocolate frog cards "This is such a great idea that I was in two minds whether to shoot it down; however, *a chocolate frog card, or any object that would have to be remembered and carried on the person, would always be vulnerable to loss, destruction or trickery*. The Order communicates in a way that requires *nothing but a wand*. You saw the Order's method of communication in use even before you knew about the existence of the Order; it was employed by an Order member." JLV xx Bonnie: Chapter 28 of GOF speaking of DD " He raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird." Bonnie again: Then shortly afterward Hagrid appears. I wonder if this silvery stuff is the same stuff in the pensives. -Thoughts- perhaps? From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 8 01:24:59 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:24:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My Pet Snape Theory (Long) Message-ID: <55.74d4bd3a.2fd7a2eb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130268 In a message dated 6/7/2005 6:16:04 PM Central Standard Time, rosered2318 at yahoo.com writes: That is a very good point! As I recall, it has not been said who performed the charm, and we have not been told whether or not the charm lifts if the performer dies. Anyone have any canon evidence for either? Rose I think its more likely that the charm would lift when the person or persons that are being protected by it dies .. regardless of who actually performs the charm. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 8 01:33:47 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:33:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Will Harry die or not? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130269 In a message dated 6/7/2005 4:02:19 PM Central Standard Time, jellocat at comcast.net writes: Killing Harry would be incredibly traumatic to children all over the world who look up to Harry as a kid that fought back the forces of evil and won by his own accord. Only problem with this line of reasoning is that when JKR conceived and plotted these books out, there weren't legions of children all over the world looking up to Harry. Melissa (who hopes that Harry lives as well) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jun 8 03:35:49 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 03:35:49 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130270 Jen: > >The bottom line is, when faced with a hundred dementors gliding > >across the lake Harry was able to produce a fully-formed corporeal > >Patronus. When faced with intrusions by the Dark Lord into his > >mind, Harry was unable to use Occlumency to block them.< > > Betsy Hp: > But it doesn't necessarily follow that the teacher alone is to > blame. At least, not for his techniques. Because Harry *does* > learn to push those out of his mind that he doesn't want there. Or > he gets a good start on it, at least. I again point towards > Pippin's post. Jen: I definitely agree with you that the teacher alone cannot determine a student's skill level. Especially after the student leaves the classroom and practices in the RW. All sneering and provoking aside, the text implies that Snape was clearly aware of the danger if Harry failed to learn Occlumency. He did take the job seriously, no matter his personal feelings for Harry, and he did attempt to teach Harry the skill. The Occlumency lessons failed to produce a positive outcome, however, so there was a breakdown along the way that didn't occur when Harry learned to cast a Patronus. And back to the idea of mental discipline. I can't resist a Star Wars parallel here: The mental discipline required for practicing magic, *particularly* Occlumency, reminds me of the Jedi teachings regarding the ways of the Force. Free yourself from negative emotions, practice emptying your mind, remain focused. Maybe Harry would have responded better to Yoda: "Empty your mind, control your emotions and repel the Dark Lord you will." Heh. Betsy: > The breakdown seems to occur with motivation. And yes, I do agree > that Snape has some culpability here, as does Dumbledore, and as > does Sirius. All three allowed Voldemort an in. Dumbledore did > so by keeping secrets from Harry, Snape did so by helping > Dumbledore keep his secrets, and Sirius did so by implying that > the Occlumency lessons were not all that important. (Harry was > surprised that his "bad boy" act - the lessons were boring, no big > loss - didn't please his Godfather, who'd been egging him on to be > a bad boy from almost the beginning of OotP.) Jen: YES! Couldn't agree more, esp. about the secretive nature of Dumbledore and Snape in regards to Occlumency. On the one hand it was essential to the secrecy of the Order. OTOH, was Dumbledore's strategy really working at this point? Harry was a loose cannon and couldn't be convinced otherwise. That alone endangered the agenda as much as DD's fears about LV's intrusions. But hey, DD admitted he made a few mistakes. Can't string him up for thinking he chose the lesser evil at the time. I mean *someone* will, but it won't be me. Betsy: > However, I think what Snape tells Harry to do, the instructions he > gives are about what Harry would have received from any other > teacher. (This will be an easy theory to test with the next book, > if Harry continues Occlumency lessons under Dumbledore.) Jen: It's never the content of Snape's speech that's the problem, it's simply how he says it. Your canon quotes from Snape's speech in your original post left out many of the descriptors for how Snape talks to Harry: "said contemptuously"; "said in a dangerous voice"; "spat Snape"; "snarled Snape"; "said Snape coolly"; "said Snape repressively"; "said Snape's cold voice"; "said Snape sharply"; "said Snape savagely".....(OOTP, US, chap. 24, pps. 530- 537) I suppose someone is going to argue with me that this is a POV issue. So let's say Harry is accurate in describing Snape's tone and manner about 50% of the time. Now I know some fans wouldn't mind having Snape for a teacher, lover, etc., but I'm thinking if anyone talked to me that way 50% of the time, I'd say "you suck, go away." But Harry and Snape don't have that luxury. Another teacher would probably use very similar language to describe the process of Occlumency to Harry, to train him on the skills he needs to learn. Without the sneering, coolness, danger, snarling, and contempt, perhaps Harry will hear what they have to say. Jen From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 04:21:57 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 04:21:57 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130271 Marla: I completely agree with SSS. When Lupin told Snape how confident he was with Neville's ablility he was standing up for him and at the same time making a point of letting Snape know, as well as the other students, how he disapproved of Snape's method's of t eaching. Subtle yet effective. Pippin: First of all, it's not Lupin's business to approve or disapprove of Snape's methods. Last I looked, Dumbledore, not Lupin, was headmaster. Alla: Well, no, Lupin is not a Headmaster , unfortunately. One of my "dream endings" would be him indeed becoming a Headmaster, which would show, IMO, how many attitudes of WW drastically changed for the better. :-) But I think that it is absolutely his business to care about emotional wellfare of the students. Especially since some of teachers pay little or no attention to it. He noticed that Neville has a big problem and he at least temporarily eased this porblem, IMO. He showed Neville that he CAN laugh at Snape and if he finds it within himself, he can do it on a regular basis. Which I find very likely by looking on OOP Neville.Oh, what would I give to read about Neville laughing at real Snape, even if it would cost him points and even detention. :-) I am also still not sure how the fact that Lupin helped Harry in a different way than he helped Neville shows Lupin Evillness. As Phoenixgod said - you use different methods with different students ( anything that works and not abusive towards the student is good in my book anyway) Potioncat: I think JKR wrote this chapter to cover several things at once. We saw how to counter a Boggart, JKR got to stick it to Snape without really sticking it to Snape, and she created some comic relief, for us and for the characters. Alla: Oh, I absolutely agree. Even though I am adamant that Lupin's very main concern was to help Neville, I also consider this scene a great example of "vicarious retribution" ( Thanks Guinger for the term) Just my opinion. Alla, who WAS surprised that Draco was wished Happy Birthday, but who still thinks that evil servants of Voldie are not wished Happy Birthday. Although will definitely eat her words if she sees Congratulations to Bella or Lucius or Peter or Voldy himself. :-) From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 04:24:15 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 04:24:15 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130272 We have debated all sides of the Occlumency situation. Whoever we blame for the failure of Harry to learn Occlumency, I think that we can all agree that Occlumency is important skill to have when battling the Dark Lord. I think that that is the main thing that JKR wants us to remember. Closing your mind, controlling your emotions to battle the forces of darkness within yourself and within the world is an important skill to have. So even though we are all left to debate long into the night the ramifications of poor teaching skills, poor communication, lack of motivation, etc. etc., the one thing that we are all left with is the undisputed knowledge that Occlumency is an important skill for a young wizard like Harry to learn. Since these are children's books and the kids identify with Harry and his struggles, I think that JKR has taught her lesson well. We have all *gotten it*, even if Harry didn't. Tonks_op From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 06:45:51 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:45:51 -0000 Subject: Teaching Styles and Motivation, (WAS: Mental Discipline in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130273 Betsy Hp: In order to enter the WW Harry has to *believe* in magic, otherwise the magic doesn't work. I think this idea is more in line with Peter Pan's lessons in flying than in any real world meditation techniques. If we take a look at the instructions Lupin gave Harry for the Patronus lessons we'll see that Lupin doesn't give Harry any good advice as far as *how* to produce the mental state that allows one to conjure a Patronus. The first direction comes after Harry asks how to conjure a Patronus. Bookworm: To be more specific, Betsy, Lupin doesn't give clear directions on how to "produce the mental state that allows one to conjure a Patronus." But then, neither does Snape give clear directions on how to "empty the mind." How does one think of nothing, when as soon as you start thinking...*thoughts* are in you mind. (Nora, my elephants were pink and flew around the room ;-) ) What Lupin does in give *positive encouragement*. Lupin's comment: "You might want to select another memory, a happy memory, I mean, to concentrate on.... That one doesn't seem to have been strong enough...." (PoA, p.239) Imagine Snape's comment in a similar lesson: "Can't you think of a better memory than that? Betsy: Again Harry fails, and Lupin gives further instruction: "Ready?" [...] "Concentrating hard? All right -- go!" (ibid p.241) Harry fails in his first attempt and Snape gives further instruction. "You let me get in too far. You lost control." [...] "You managed to stop me eventually, though you wasted time and energy shouting. You must remain focused." (OoP, p.535) Harry asks for more instruction on (I assume) repelling Snape with his brain. "Now, I want you to close your eyes." [...] "Clear your mind, Potter," said Snape's cold voice. "Let go of all emotion...." [...] "You're not doing it, Potter.... You will need more discipline than this.... Focus now...." [...] "Let's go again... on the count of three... one -- two -- three -- Legilimens!" (ibid) Already, in the very first lesson, Snape appears to be giving more instruction than Lupin did, at least as far as the mental discipline required. Snape refers back to a type of magic Harry has already mastered, and he talks Harry through clearing his mind. Whereas Lupin's advice really came down to "like that only happier!" Bookworm: Snape's directions seem to be more detailed, but they are full of negatives: "wasted time and energy", "You're not doing it," "need more discipline" Role reversal again: Lupin's imaginary instructions: "That's good, Harry. You did it. Now, let's try it again and see if you can do it using a little less effort. Remember to stay calm and keep focusing." I know which instructor's style I prefer. ;-) Nora: First of all, *there is an incantation* that one must use. There's no 'Expecto Patronum!' focus-word for Occlumency. A Patronus has this very specific goal. Occlumency has a nebulous, difficult goal, and is more a state of being than a momentary expenditure of effort. Bookworm: To take this a step further, a Patronus is a positive effort. It produces something. Occlumency is defensive. You are reacting to someone else's action. The wizard is trying to block someone from reading/seeing thoughts, which IMO is much more difficult. If someone is `pushing' against you, the usual reactions are to fall back or push back. That won't work for Occlumency. We saw Harry push back at Snape. But if you don't want the Dark Lord to know you are hiding something from him, you can't push him out without him getting even more suspicious. (Legilimency would seem to be much easier because it is active; you are the one in control.) Now, having said all that, there is also a big difference in Harry's motivation in the different lessons. Harry *wanted* to learn the Patronus ? he asked Lupin (a teacher he liked) to teach him how to defend himself. OTOH, Harry was *told* to study with Snape (a teacher his despises) to block thoughts that he really doesn't want to block. Even if their teaching styles were the same and Harry liked both men, Lupin would have seemed to be a more successful teacher than Snape simply because Harry was motivated to learn the Patronus but not Occulumency. Jen: I definitely agree with you [Betsy] that the teacher alone cannot determine a student's skill level. The Occlumency lessons failed to produce a positive outcome, however, so there was a breakdown along the way that didn't occur when Harry learned to cast a Patronus. Maybe Harry would have responded better to Yoda: "Empty your mind, control your emotions and repel the Dark Lord you will." Heh. Bookworm: Didn't Yoda also say, "Mindful of your feelings you must be." ?? Or was that Obi-Wan? Jen: And regarding mental discipline, I think Lupin and Snape *both* show signs of having excellent mental and emotional control. I find it interesting that those two not only survived the first war, but managed to become very skillful and powerful wizards along the way Betsy Hp: Oh I totally agree. And if Harry could learn from both of them he'll be quite a formidable wizard. It's part of the reason I really, really, really, hope Pippin is wrong about ESE!Lupin. Bookworm: Here's where I get to say, "Me too!" to both Jen and Betsy. Ravenclaw Bookworm From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 06:51:08 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:51:08 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130274 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > We have debated all sides of the Occlumency situation. Whoever we > blame for the failure of Harry to learn Occlumency, I think that we > can all agree that Occlumency is important skill to have when > battling the Dark Lord. I think that that is the main thing that > JKR wants us to remember. bboyminn: Well, I sort of agree and sort of disagree; how that for firm commitment? The lessons with Snape were a failure, and we can debate the finer points of why, whose fault, etc..., but Occlumency itself, in the broader picture, was not a failure. Once he is no longer blinded by his animosity toward Snape, Harry will realize 'Hey, I can do this', and he can. >From very early on we see indications that Harry can block memories he doesn't want people to see, and he managed to do it in a variety of ways from defensive spell, to blocking spells, to flat out refusal to allow the images to be seen. As should be obvious from my past posts that I believe Snape approached the lessons all wrong, though that is not unexpected given the general relationship between Snape and Harry. Others have argued that perhaps there really is no way to learn this except by try, try, try, and try again. That perhaps the process is so internal that it somewhat defies explanation. None the less, I have to believe that any competent teacher can see that Snape is working against himself, and is intentionally or unintentionally subverting the process. While the 'try and try again' method may be the only way to learn, Snape creates an atmosphere and uses a general method that is counter productive, and no one will ever sway me from that position. When Harry does block a memory a good teacher wouldn't belittle his student, he would say 'Well done, you successfully block a memory you don't want me to see, but you have to learn to stop all memories even when you don't care if I see them, or when you yourself do want to see them. You've got the basic idea, now we need to refine it'. Harry gets encouragement for his success, and an explanation of how and where he needs to proceed from their. Shaun has pointed out before that he had a very Snape like teach who was extremely strict and demanding, but as brutally as this teacher may have demanded success, I suspect he also gave his student the tools to succeed. So, it's not necessarily Snape hard and direct no-nonsense approach that I object to, it the fact that Snape doesn't give Harry the tools and atmosphere that support learning. There is a big difference in being strict and demanding for it's own sake, and being stict and demanding toward a productive goal. I don't off-hand remember the subject that Shaun's teacher taught, but it seems like it might have been one of those subjects that students univerally hate and resist when they are young, but greatly appreciate when they are older. So this teacher may have fiercely demanded success because he knew the reward for his work lay far down the road. Regarding the second aspect of the lesson, the dreams, 'Calm down' and 'clear your mind' are near impossible tasks, but there are very common techinques that are well known and thousands of year old that Snape could have given to Harry. As far as the classes themselves, I think Harry was as curious as Snape to see the cascade of general memories that came from Harry's mind. It's hard to stop something that you are interested in seeing. But whenever a personal memory came to Harry, he was able to cut if off immediately. Plus it's hard to block your dreams when the very person who it telling you to clear you mind, is also the person who is aggitating and aggrivating you to the point where, even for someone who knew how to do it, it would have been a difficult task. > Tonks_op continues: > > Closing your mind, controlling your emotions to battle the > forces of darkness within yourself and within the world is an > important skill to have. So even though we are all left to debate > long into the night the ramifications ... the one thing that we > are all left with is the undisputed knowledge that Occlumency is an > important skill for a young wizard like Harry to learn. ... We have > all *gotten it*, even if Harry didn't. > > Tonks_op bboyminn: I think in a somewhat spiritual or deeper 'life' sense, you are right. This internal struggle against outside influences is part of the deep message and symbolism of Occlumency. Be a free thinker, don't let others get into your mind and influence you with their own thoughts. >From a more practical perspective, I think it is a case of JKR introducing a concept with in a limited context that will have greater story significants in the future. Is there really anyone here who thinks Harry's skill at Occlumency won't be tested and proven at some point in the future? The immediate context is for Harry to be so aggitated by circumstance and so aggrivated by Snape, that he can't block the dream that JKR needs him to see in order for the story to go where it needs to go. In a somewhat broader context, Snape and Harry learn things about each other that they otherwise would never of been able to know. I think away from the fanned flames of anger, they will both realize that they have come to a deep understanding of each other, and that in turn will prehaps bring about a reduced level of hostility between them. Though I suspect in the short term, the flames will burn hotter before they actually mellow. I also wonder if the lessons weren't the seed for a future 'show down' or 'clear of the air' between Snape and Harry. A clearing of the air that will try to resolve increased hostility with the deeper understanding. So, I think Occlumency is one of those things that goes beyond the immediate plot need, and will have ramifications large and small in assorted other areas of the general plot and in Harry's life. And further, since I can see several potential payoffs in the future, I'm not sure I can rate is as a failure. Just some general thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From fiscused at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 01:36:53 2005 From: fiscused at yahoo.com (fiscused) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:36:53 -0000 Subject: Luna and Viktor SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130275 Bonnie wrote: > Then Viktor meets Luna. Wouldn't Luna and Viktor make an > interesting couple? He's so dark and brooding, she's so > wacky. What fun! I never thought of that! It might work. I think it would be hilarious! But it probably wouldn't get a lot of "page time" in the context of the books. Makes me wonder if Viktor is still hung up on Hermione. We only know he's writing her, and assume he's still interested. If Vikky's letter are amorous, what would Hermoine think if he came to Hogwarts, but then stopped pursuing her in favor of another girl... I go to ponder... Nev From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed Jun 8 07:02:44 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:02:44 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A69814.8030300@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130276 dumbledore11214 wrote: > He noticed that Neville > has a big problem and he at least temporarily eased this porblem, > IMO. He showed Neville that he CAN laugh at Snape and if he finds > it within himself, he can do it on a regular basis. Which I find > very likely by looking on OOP Neville. Yes, I hope Neville is capable to stand up to Snape now. But Lupin had nothing to do with it! The Boggart lesson was in the beginning of Year 3, and it didn't ease Neville's problem at all. If I recall, Neville was more scared of Snape than ever that year. So if during the events of Year 5 Neville discovered his inner Gryffindor, Lupin can now take any credit for it, a year and a half later? I don't think so. :-) Harry can take some credit, and most of all Neville himself. Irene From tifflblack at earthlink.net Wed Jun 8 02:04:38 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:04:38 -0700 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130277 Alla: > I would LIKE for Harry to live at the end of the series, but I > also do not think that not killing him will mean conventional > and predictable ending of the series. > > But I share the POV that to defeat Voldie, Harry must defeat > his fear of death first, to be able to go into last battle with > the thought that he may die and willing to do so. Tiffany: I too hope Harry will live in the end, but if Harry dies, I would hope he dies fighting and does defeat Voldemort. To me, it's not the fact that he could die, but how he dies if he does that would matter. Tiffany From tab1669 at elnet.com Wed Jun 8 02:33:54 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 02:33:54 -0000 Subject: Underage Wizardry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130278 Random new topic but in the fifth book Fred and George are using magic outside of school. They passed their apparation test and were going all over the place. If Harry had to go to a trial for fighting off dementors and he was in a lot of trouble, then why can Fred and George do magic without getting in trouble? It sounds like they are very strict about underage wizardry for Harry. Is it ok for the twins to do magic because it's their last year at school? They can do magic whenever. I would still think that I would consider them to be underage. Or is it that the Weasley family is all wizards that they overlooked this? Or that they thought Harry was crazy and overlooked the Weasleys? Can someone help me with this? "flyingmonkeypurple" From jmarcato at charter.net Wed Jun 8 02:37:27 2005 From: jmarcato at charter.net (Jennifer) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 02:37:27 -0000 Subject: Possible Ministry Regulations (Long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130279 Hi, I am primarily a lurker, but this is something that has been buzzing around in my brain. What could a cooperative, effective Ministry of Magic do to combat the Death Eaters? What kind of punishment will work? I think we have seen that even Azkaban is not going to keep those captured off the streets for long, so what is the next step without becoming a dictatorship, or stripping citizens of all their rights? I have tried to come up with a scheme that respects individuals, while protecting the community. Here in Alabama we have the death penalty. While we allow a number of appeals, and prisoners may sit on death row for years, that may not be possible to allow for the Death Eaters. I'm not trying to start a political discussion, but I think these might be some possible ideas: Laws 1. Penalties a. Death Penalty (AK or veil) for: i. Anyone convicted of DE activity with or without Dark Mark ii. Death Penalty only available when Wizengamot renders unanimous verdict. b. Confiscation of all assets minus a living allowance for survivors in the following cases: i. Anyone convicted of DE activity with or without Dark Mark ii. Anyone dead before trial who has a Dark Mark and was not registered with the Ministry. c. Magic Removal i. Anyone with Dark Mark 1. Unless registered with Ministry 2. If those registered show evidence of resumed dark activities without Ministry authorization, penalty may be reinstated. ii. Anyone convicted of DE activity with or without Dark Mark iii. Those who are rendered squibs will then be sentenced to prison for life with possible parole after ten years. iv. Available in cases where Wizengamot does not render unanimous verdict. v. A prisoner may petition to receive Death Penalty rather than magic removal regardless of Wizengamot vote. 2. Ministry/Wizengamot Protection Policies a. Each morning check arms, using spells to prevent glamours. b. Anyone with access to sensitive materials will be questioned under veritaserum weekly. c. Any Ministry/Wizengamot personnel may request relocation to a secure compound for his/her family. 3. Ministry Accountability a. All trials will have at least one press representative. b. All prisoners will be questioned under veritaserum if they so desire. c. All witnesses will be questioned under veritaserum. d. Priori Incantantem shall not be considered as conclusive evidence of guilt. 4. Appeal Process a. Death Penalty or Magic Removal penalties shall not be carried out until all appeals are exhausted. b. Assets may be frozen pending exhaustion of appeals c. First appeal will be for reconsideration by Wizengamot. d. Second Appeal will be to an appointed international body. 5. These Emergency Laws will expire one year from date of passage, unless renewed by an eighty percent vote of the Wizengamot. Notes: I assume here that magic removal is possible. I also assume that Voldemort would not be that interested in rescuing those rendered squibs. I also allow that some who served Voldemort in his first reign might not do so now. Bookgirl137 From hogwarts121943 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 05:54:06 2005 From: hogwarts121943 at yahoo.com (hogwarts121943) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:54:06 -0000 Subject: Has anyone thought that Dumbledore knows what the outcome is going to be? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130280 I have heard all 5 of the books on tape for years now, I love Jim Dale's voice, so I put on a tape before I go to sleep and am lulled off to sleep, but I have a few questions that need to be answered: That time turner, what makes us think that he has not used it to see what is going to Harry? He can't interfere with what is going to happpen, but he can keep Harry safe... And why not tell him about the eye contact thing? "hogwarts121943" From wherr009 at umn.edu Wed Jun 8 03:49:52 2005 From: wherr009 at umn.edu (wherr009) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 03:49:52 -0000 Subject: Secret Keeper / charm questions (was Re: My Pet Snape Theory (Long)) In-Reply-To: <55.74d4bd3a.2fd7a2eb@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130281 > Melissa: > I think it's more likely that the charm would lift when the > person or persons that are being protected by it dies .. > regardless of who actually performs the charm. wherr009: This brings another question to mind. Was Harry protected by the charm? Or even more specific, what is the secret that Peter was "holding"? Was it the location of GH or was it that the Potters were *in* GH? Just a couple of more questions for everyone out there in HPFGU land. wherr009 From katiebug1233 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 07:26:21 2005 From: katiebug1233 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:26:21 -0000 Subject: Underage Wizardry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130282 In OOP the Weasely twins were 17 and therefore no longer considered underage in the wizarding world. I have a feeling this is also why they were able to quit school at the end of the book without their mother completely disowning them. I'm sure that Molly wasn't happy about it but they were at no longer underage wizards so it was ultimately their choice. -Katie From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 8 07:35:06 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:35:06 -0000 Subject: Underage Wizardry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130283 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "flyingmonkeypurple" wrote: > Is it ok for the twins to do magic because it's their last year at school? > "flyingmonkeypurple" They are allowed to do magic in the summer after their sixth year - quoting from OotP, chapter five: "'FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE!' screamed Mrs Weasley. 'THERE WAS NO NEED ? I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS ? JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE ALLOWED TO USE MAGIC NOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WHIP YOUR WAND OUT FOR EVERY TINY LITTLE THING!' "'We were just trying to save a bit of time!' said Fred, hurrying forward to wrench the bread knife out of the table." I wonder what Harry will do next summer? JLV xx From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 08:26:03 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:26:03 -0000 Subject: Possible Ministry Regulations (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130284 "Jennifer": > I'm not trying to start a political discussion, but I think these > might be some possible ideas: > > Laws > 1. Penalties > a. Death Penalty (AK or veil) for: > i. Anyone convicted of DE activity with or without Dark Mark > ii. Death Penalty only available when Wizengamot renders > unanimous verdict. Finwitch: I can't help thinking of poor Sirius - you must first make certain that people DO, at least, get a trial! Jennifer: > b. Confiscation of all assets minus a living allowance for > survivors in the following cases: > i. Anyone convicted of DE activity with or without Dark Mark > ii. Anyone dead before trial who has a Dark Mark and was not > registered with the Ministry. Finwitch: They can't do that. Goblins run the ONLY bank, so wizards can't touch the money. AND houses etc. can (and usually are) protected with various spells so that no one can FIND them unless the owner wants them to... > c. Magic Removal > i. Anyone with Dark Mark > 1. Unless registered with Ministry > 2. If those registered show evidence of resumed dark > activities without Ministry authorization, penalty may be > reinstated. > ii. Anyone convicted of DE activity with or without Dark Mark > iii. Those who are rendered squibs will then be sentenced to > prison for life with possible parole after ten years. > iv. Available in cases where Wizengamot does not render > unanimous verdict. > v. A prisoner may petition to receive Death Penalty rather than > magic removal regardless of Wizengamot vote. Finwitch: They DO take the wand away for several offences as it is. Wizards are born with the magic, and even if it were possible to take that birth-gift away, I doubt wizards have EVER bothered to learn how (or that they will). Apparently they CANNOT give magical abilities to Muggles either... > 2. Ministry/Wizengamot Protection Policies > a. Each morning check arms, using spells to prevent glamours. > b. Anyone with access to sensitive materials will be questioned > under veritaserum weekly. > c. Any Ministry/Wizengamot personnel may request relocation to a > secure compound for his/her family. Finwitch:a) you're thinking Muggle way here -- anyone entering Ministry building (aside from small children/non humans) IS armed with a wand. Presumably that's why the require registration of a wand. Moody's Wand-care ought to be everyone's concern. b. Well, Veritaserum CAN be countered by Occlumency, so it's not foolproof. Also, I suppose that if a DE (or whoever) found out about sensitive information from a Ministry personnel, the DE would - being aware of the process, Obliviate the source as to the 'giving of information'. Therefore even the said ministry personnel wouldn't be aware of anything... it just wouldn't WORK. c. Move? Why would they move when they can place themselves under Fidelius, unplottable etc. and I doubt they need permission for that, either - and I'd say that Gringotts already HAS secure accounts (like I believe vaults 711 and 713 to be). Wizards ARE very good in spells designed for hiding ever since the decision to hide from Muggles was made. > 3. Ministry Accountability > a. All trials will have at least one press representative. > b. All prisoners will be questioned under veritaserum if they so > desire. > c. All witnesses will be questioned under veritaserum. > d. Priori Incantantem shall not be considered as conclusive > evidence of guilt. Finwitch: If a minor is on trial/a witness, I would have it a *Closed* trial - and the Veritaserum isn't all that foolproof, (JKR says so in her website) - it CAN be countered by a Master Occlumens (and there *could* be a counter-potion as well, which could be taken before...) No, I'd say that you just need at least one Legilimens in Wizengamot. But more important than describing a trial, we must ensure ALL get one. Jennifer: > 4. Appeal Process > a. Death Penalty or Magic Removal penalties shall not be carried > out until all appeals are exhausted. > b. Assets may be frozen pending exhaustion of appeals > c. First appeal will be for reconsideration by Wizengamot. > d. Second Appeal will be to an appointed international body. Finwitch: I wounder if these appeals would have saved Buckbeak? And considering Sirius (possibly some other innocent prisoners), we have to, first, ensure that there IS a trial... You know - I wonder if there's more to why Dumbledore asks 'can you hear me' before asking anything else from Barty Crouch- because the answer - well, MUST be yes if it's to be truthful - No would be an OBVIOUS lie... I suppose that sort of question counters SOME techniques used to counter Veritaserum. And - I think that it'd take POWERFUL Occlumency to counter Veritaserum AND Legilimency at the same time... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 08:55:39 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:55:39 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) In-Reply-To: <20050607233555.95735.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130285 > > Irene Mikhlin wrote: > > > > All true, and don't forget the act of sabotage by Sirius! Sirius > > undermined Harry's motivation from the get go, treating the idea > > of the lessons as Snape's private whim or something. Brilliant, > > Sirius, that will really communicate to Harry just how important > > Dumbledore finds these lessons. > Magda: > Actually, upon re-reading the chapter, I wonder if Sirius was jealous > that someone else was involved in teaching Harry something important. > That it was Snape of all people just made it worse, but the spurt of > resentment would have existed no matter who it was. Finwitch: You know, I think there IS the possibility of this, too, being a mistake of Dumbledore's. If Dumbledore didn't tell Sirius of this plan -- at least, as Harry's guardian, I don't think Sirius was all THAT out of place. Interestingly, the question of Snape teaching Harry is a mistake Dumbledore admitted, AND Harry need be told - AGAIN, Sirius was right over Dumbledore. What I think angered Sirius more than anything here, with Snape (and with Molly for that matter) was that his position as Harry's guardian was not properly acknowledged. Don't forget that James and Lily had not only named him Harry's godfather, but appointed him as Harry's guardian... Even more, I think that Sirius was fighting to keep his sanity and godfathering Harry is one of the ways he has of doing it. AND, I do think he's genuinely loving Harry like a parent. That settled, then look at how things are in OOP: 1. Harry's off with Dursleys instead of with Sirius, resulting in Harry being attacked by Dementors AND getting in trouble for defending himself... 2. Harry's not told 'more than he needs to know' because Dumbledore said so (acc. Molly) - as much as Sirius resents that, it's apparent that his idea of how much Harry needs to know is VERY different from Molly's. And Molly questions Sirius' authority on the matter... and acts lowly with that comment of Azkaban... Sirius only tries to give her an example of NOT getting in the way of parent/child relationship as he tells F&G that 'it's your parents' decision'. I can only imagine how much Sirius had to battle with Molly about guarding Harry off scene... 3. Harry has that vision which saves Arthur Weasley - and the next thing Sirius hears if Snape coming to talk to Harry and informing about Occlumency-lessons... as Legilimency is such an offence on Harry's privacy- I'd say Sirius is quite right defending Harry (who of course didn't know what Occlumency even was, but I'm positive Sirius DID know). And, giving Harry that mirror-- trying to assure Harry's not being abused on the excuse of a lesson... why did he think Molly wouldn't approve? Finwitch From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Jun 8 09:17:25 2005 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:17:25 -0000 Subject: Secret Keeper / charm questions (was Re: My Pet Snape Theory (Long)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130286 > wherr009: > > This brings another question to mind. Was Harry protected by > the charm? Or even more specific, what is the secret that Peter > was "holding"? Was it the location of GH or was it that the > Potters were *in* GH? Just a couple of more questions for > everyone out there in HPFGU land. > Eloise: I think it's more complicated than that. I don't think that the location of Godric's Hollow was a secret, possibly not even that the Potters lived there, but we are told that even if Voldemort had his nose pressed up against their sitting-room window, he wouldn't have been able to find them. So I think he could have known precisely where they were from another source, but unless *Pettigrew* chose to tell him, he would be unable to find them. It's not so much the knowledge that's protected, but the ability to use that knowledge. I guess it's a bit like a magnification of the effect you get when you know exactly where your keys are and you look there three times before you actually manage to see them. Only much more. The description of how it works in PoA doesn't *quite* tally with Harry's experience in OoP. There, 12 Grimauld Place is completely invisible - in fact not even occupying any space, apparently - until the secret is divulged to him. It's difficult to see how anyone could have their nose pressed up to the living room window there. But then again, it could be that the building has always occupied a magical space and been invisible to those who didn't know about it. It would be belts and braces to have the presence of the Order there protected with a Fidelius as well. ~Eloise From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 09:28:31 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:28:31 -0000 Subject: Has anyone thought that Dumbledore knows what the outcome is going to be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130287 hogwarts121943:"I have heard all 5 of the books on tape for years now, I love Jim Dale's voice, so I put on a tape before I go to sleep and am lulled off to sleep, but I have a few questions that need to be answered: That time turner, what makes us think that he [DD?] has not used it to see what is going to [happen to?] Harry? He can't interfere with what is going to happen, but he can keep Harry safe... And why not tell him about the eye contact thing?" I do the same thing with Jim Dale's performances. My daughters do, too. I believe that when you say that Dumbledore can't change the future but he can keep Harry safe, that's a contradiction. Actually, we've never seen that a Time Turner can go into the future, except for a moment from its previous departure. Dumbledore *should* have told Harry about the eye contact thing, along with a lot of other stuff. His avoidance hurt Harry. It won't happen again, but some damage was done, particularly the MoM battle that included Sirius's death. OTOH, the battle was a major defeat for Voldemort. Jim Ferer From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 10:32:25 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:32:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130288 > Alla: > > I'd like to say that we don't know yet whether Sirius knew exactly > what he was doing that night and what exactly Sirius was doing. > > Doesn't it strike you as strange that Sirius after spending twelve > years in Azkaban reacts so violently at the first mention of Snape's > name. Granted, you can argue that Sirius is a vicious murderer, who > always wanted to kill Snape, but isn't it possible that this > reaction shows hatred which relies on something much more in depth > than the fact that Snape was spying on them? > > For twelve years Dementors were eating up Sirius' happy thoughts. If > his reactions about Snape were left intact, isn't it possible that > something VERY unhappy connects those two? Finwitch: Excellent point, Alla - and indeed, there IS a mutual, strong hatred between them - particularly obvious in GoF. Something that's in the very core of them -- and I suppose that something is also part of 'he exists' that James told Lily. My favourite theory about that 'prank', considering that question of werewolves which Snape issued for a homework, Snape's apparent study of that question/listening the conversation which more or less clearly stated that Lupin was a werewolf-- is that Snape DID know. What he went there for, was to commit *suicide by a werewolf*. Why? To get at Sirius, of course! Trying to make Sirius appear guilty of murder - which Snape is STILL doing with that claim... At the very least, I believe that Sirius reckons Snape went there to kill himself, become a ghost and therefore, frame him for murder. After spending 12 years with dementors for a similar act, forced to dwell in whatever it is he hates Snape so much for - saying 'serves him right' fits in. In that situation, I think I'd be saying the same. As for Snape, it's: 1)He did exactly what Sirius thinks he did, and is still stuck with the goal of having Sirius bear the blame of 'attempt' of murder. 2)He truly believes that Sirius tried to kill him - whatever the truth of the matter is. But in that case, WHY did he go to the shack? And whatever else, Snape WAS more than ready to have Sirius kissed by Dementors - not bothering to listen, not bothering for a trial (he never does, does he?) - and that only ADDS to what Sirius figures of him... Finwitch From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Wed Jun 8 11:04:07 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:04:07 -0000 Subject: The late Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130289 The prophecy certainly seems to suggest the deaths of both Harry and Voldemort, and this would be rather a weak ending in my view, though pretty well in line with Hamlet. But actually, child readers can put up with death if it's well motivated. What about Beth in Little Women - or did she survive into Good Wives? (Nobody reads The Old Curiosity Shop any more, so let's ignore Little Nell - but grown men and women wept in the streets when the magazine in which she finally became extinct appeared, and they all survived and kept on buying Dickens!) And there's always the final CS Lewis volume in the Lion, Witch and Wardrobe series - is it The Last Battle? The three main human characters - Peter, Edmund and Lucy - are in a train crash, and are delighted to discover that they've died in it because now they need never leave their alternative world. Which is obviously heaven, since Narnia ends. And we know that the books were written with a clearly evangelical purpose ... which we don't know about the HP books. We may suspect that they follow the usual pattern of good triumphing over evil, but to call this Christian is too narrow. The idea of Dumbledore rising from the dead like a phoenix is charming, but alas! I can see too many holes in it. And as for Harry, my best bet is still that he survives as a mortal being but without his magical talent - becomes a Squib, I suppose. And that would be a kind of death. But certainly gentler than the real thing, and something that could very well move the plot along to its conclusion: something like: only by Harry doing a Prospero and renouncing that rough magic can Voldemort lose his own power. My other great hope of the moment is that JKR is less, er, sentimental than some of her fans! Children are the great realists, remember. We shall see. Deborah, who would love to see through walls and into printing works! From hambtty at triad.rr.com Wed Jun 8 11:37:57 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:37:57 -0000 Subject: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130290 > But actually, child readers can put up with death if it's well > motivated. What about Beth in Little Women - or did she survive into > Good Wives? (Nobody reads The Old Curiosity Shop any more, so let's > ignore Little Nell - but grown men and women wept in the streets when > the magazine in which she finally became extinct appeared, and they > all survived and kept on buying Dickens!) And there's always the final > CS Lewis volume in the Lion, Witch and Wardrobe series - is it The > Last Battle? The three main human characters - Peter, Edmund and Lucy > - are in a train crash, and are delighted to discover that they've > died in it because now they need never leave their alternative world. > Which is obviously heaven, since Narnia ends. And we know that the > books were written with a clearly evangelical purpose ... which we > don't know about the HP books. We may suspect that they follow the > usual pattern of good triumphing over evil, but to call this Christian > is too narrow. > > The idea of Dumbledore rising from the dead like a phoenix is > charming, but alas! I can see too many holes in it. And as for Harry, > my best bet is still that he survives as a mortal being but without > his magical talent - becomes a Squib, I suppose. And that would be a > kind of death. But certainly gentler than the real thing, and > something that could very well move the plot along to its conclusion: > something like: only by Harry doing a Prospero and renouncing that > rough magic can Voldemort lose his own power. > > My other great hope of the moment is that JKR is less, er, sentimental > than some of her fans! Children are the great realists, remember. > BG writes: JKR is adamant that there will only be 7 books. She stated that after we have read book 7 there will be no need for any more or for a prequel series. This leads me to believe that she will explain not only all that happened in GH that fateful night but also what happens to Harry. Now whether it is in a last minute flash-forward to his death as an old man or his untimely death remains to be seen, err read. As to her statement about we will know her faith by the end of book 7, this makes me think she will show someone, IMO Harry, in an afterlife state. LV has in essence "lost his soul" in his search for immortality and in dying he will be released from his "something worse than death" state. In POA when the dementors suck out a soul it was said to be worse than death. Harry and LV will both die in book 7. Harry will have everlasting life because of his choices. He will release LV from his "worse than death" existence by killing him. Harry will go "into the light" and LV will cease to exist ? anywhere. By choosing to do what was right, Harry he will live forever, in Heaven. LV chose evil and he will die. From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Wed Jun 8 11:46:41 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:46:41 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130291 1. Who will be the most major character to die? The new DADA teacher. Though some old friends will cop it too, and there may well be some disagreement as to whether the new DADA teacher is a more major character than a Weasley brother. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Dumbledore. Firenze will see something about The Half-Blood Prince in the stars (or in the dew on a spider's web, or in Hedwig's entrails, or something). Felix felicis (whoever he turns out to be) will be the obvious suspect. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) The first "important thing" we learned was about her defending nasty people (Snape) against good people (James) when they're innocent. Harry will have to do something like that too (i.e. defend Snape at some point because he's innocent of whatever he's being accused). The rest of the important stuff about Lily won't be revealed in HBP, but it will be something about her eyes and seeing goodness in people, and giving them second chances. Bleugh. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix felicis, who may or may not be the leonine chap, but he *will* be a great teacher, (he *might* turn out to be a DE spy/agent) and it will irritate Snape (who can't stand him, naturally) no end. FF might even teach Harry Occlumency, (which will irritate Snape even more). 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Eugh... shipping forecasts aren't my sort of thing, but here goes: HBP will not clear up either of the two major shipping questions. Harry and Ginny will not get together, though we will undoubtedly see more of Ginny being witty and fun. Ron and Hermione will carry on bickering and bantering, but we will be in more or less the same shipping climate wrt these two as we are now (only with more canon for the shippers to fight over). Harry may flirt with and possibly even kiss someone else, though it's more likely that he's chased by this someone than that he does the chasing. How about... Lavender Brown? 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Felix Felicis, who will be a bad guy in disguise. (I know, I know... it's called "hedging your bets". Whoever FF turns out to be, with a name like that he'll be for the chop before the end of the book, I betcha.) 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? With Lucius in Azkaban, Arthur will finally get to search the Malfoy's manor, and in the secret whatsit under the dining room he will find ... a pensieve. His loyalty to the Order will conflict with his loyalty to the ministry, and the pensieve will make its way to Dumbledore, who will find the contents *fascinating*. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Bien s?r mes chers! 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Doubt it. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Oops. 20. No, hang on... 7. Yes, 7. Additional (0-10 points each): 1. We're going to find out more about Voldemort and his past, probably from DD. We'll find out what it was that Voldy was up to in those immortality experiments, and I'm still betting it's to do with snakes (specifically Nagini, which is how she became so dear to Voldy) ? which might mean it's also to do with Slytherin (giving us a reason to see the Hogwarts graveyard, perhaps). 2. Ron will be shocked to get an O in divination, insisting that he was making it all up. He's not a real seer, but he *is* a convincing bluffer. He'll carry on with divination for NEWTs (along with his 4 auror subjects) because he thinks it's easy, and since we need some way for Harry to hear about Firenze's Half-Blood Prince thingy (Harry, on the other hand will carry on with either CoMC or Herbology). This will mean that he's in divination with a lot of giggling girls, and will have plenty of opportunity to make Hermione screamingly jealous. 3. Sirius was a hot-headed fool, and mucked up something very important which will cause Harry a lot of grief. However, he also managed to give Harry the wrong mirror, which is actually one of a pair, one of which belonged to his brother, Regulus, the other one is in the possession of Narcissa. Harry will therefore find out that he can spy on the Malfoys, hence how we find out about "Draco's Detour", and about the pensieve of Voldemort's ending up with DD. (And why the mirror wouldn't have helped as much as we thought, but will help more than we might think.) Goodness, so many guesses (I'd hardly call them predictions) and so few bangs... So (joining in Olivier's ESE!Challenge) let's try: 4. ESE!Aberforth. The shifty barman of the Hog's Head, oh yes. Brother betraying brother... Need I say more? Oh, well, I will anyway: If DD dies (ignore the contradictions with the above nonsense) it won't be a magical bang, it will be POISON. That's what Aberforth was up to with the goats ? getting bezoars, so he could experiment... Oh yes. And I bet he gets Winky to do it. But there's Mundungus's story, too: a dodgy deal with Aberforth went wrong, a fight in the pub in front of someone from the Ministry, Dung was barred. DD stepped in to get him out of trouble, and realised that Aberforth was Up To No Good. DD didn't know about all of it though, just the petty criminal stuff. Forgave Aberforth and gave him another chance... Big mistake. It'll all end in tears, you mark my words... And after that outpouring of barely coherent nonsense, I've got to get on with some work. Dungrollin. PS Does anyone else wonder if the Hog's Head was shortened from The Hogwarts Headmaster? More importantly, can anyone pin a theory to it? Could the pub, perhaps, date from the time of the founders? From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Jun 8 12:13:17 2005 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:13:17 -0000 Subject: Hog's Head (was: Re: HBP prediction contest) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130292 Dungrollin: > PS Does anyone else wonder if the Hog's Head was shortened from The > Hogwarts Headmaster? More importantly, can anyone pin a theory to > it? Could the pub, perhaps, date from the time of the founders? Eloise: It's just a nice coincidence. A hogshead is an old English measure of capacity. The precise capacity ahs varied a bit over the years and interestingly, it also varied according to what was being measured. http://www.sizes.com/units/hogshead.htm The Hog's Head, or Hogshead isn't an uncommon pub name in RL. And what else would you call a pub in Hogsmeade? (Aside from the Three Broomsticks, that is. ;-) ) ~Eloise From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jun 8 12:18:17 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:18:17 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130293 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > We have debated all sides of the Occlumency situation. Whoever we > blame for the failure of Harry to learn Occlumency, I think that we > can all agree that Occlumency is important skill to have when > battling the Dark Lord. I think that that is the main thing that > JKR wants us to remember. Closing your mind, controlling your > emotions to battle the forces of darkness within yourself and within > the world is an important skill to have. Jen: I'm not certain what JKR intends with Occlumency. After all, Dumbledore tells Harry in OOTP: "In the end it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you." (chap. 37, p. 844) It's an ambiguous statement--does Harry need to continue Occlumency if indeed his heart will save him over and over from Voldemort? His heart led him through the trapdoor, down to the COS to save Ginny, and certainly saved him in the graveyard since only the 'pure of heart' feel inspired when hearing the Phoenix song. Rowling is telling us emotional control is essential to fighting the Dark Lord, but I'm not sure about her message re: Occlumency yet. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 8 12:44:54 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:44:54 -0000 Subject: Hog's Head (was: Re: HBP prediction contest) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130294 > Dungrollin: > > PS Does anyone else wonder if the Hog's Head was shortened from The > > Hogwarts Headmaster? More importantly, can anyone pin a theory to > > it? > Eloise: snip > The Hog's Head, or Hogshead isn't an uncommon pub name in RL. And what else would you call a pub in Hogsmeade? (Aside from the Three > Broomsticks, that is. ;-) ) Potioncat: Oh, I do hope this was the last pun of the series to go over my head! And such an obvious one too! But, given JKR's love of puns....back to Dungrollin's question: If it is HOGwart's HEADmster, it doesn't look good for DD of his faith in Snape... A severed(us) head? From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 13:02:53 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:02:53 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130295 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > First of all, it's not Lupin's business to approve or disapprove of > Snape's methods. Last I looked, Dumbledore, not Lupin, was > headmaster. Then Snape is, of course, being equally as rude in his far more overt and open disapproval of Lupin's methods? The distinction, as I see it, is that Lupin is covertly critiquing Snape's methods *when Snape pokes his nose, unnecessarily, into Lupin's class as it's going on*. That's a far different situation than Snape coming in to teach Lupin's class and proceeding to disparage Lupin's teaching style, skills, etc. (while making a hilarious mistake himself). > Neville might have been ashamed if Lupin had stepped in front of him > and said, "I'll deal with it," forcing the boggart to take another > form, but it would have spared Neville having to deal with an > aggravated Snape all year. I think we can all agree that > aggravated!Snape was a bigger problem for Neville than being > ashamed of not dealing with a boggart would have been. I think it's a hypothetic that Snape wouldn't have found some reason and/or way to become aggravated with Neville. He does it so very well. > Then, if Lupin really had wanted to help Neville get over his > fear of the real Snape, he would have let Neville practice > potions with a boggart-Snape glaring and sneering until it didn't > bother him anymore. So Lupin is supposed to take over remedial Potions tutoring for Neville as well? He's a busy werewolf, you know. :) -Nora would almost love to just ask JKR right out about this situation From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 13:07:26 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:07:26 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130296 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Yes, there is no single focus-word for Occlumency (I think that's > part of what makes it such advanced magic) but the call for mental > focus and discipline are relatively the same. There *are* > differences, but I wouldn't catagorize them as massive. I'd say that the differences are still profound because it's state vs. action. With the Patronus, Harry has to get into the state which will enable him to commit a single act of intention--the casting of the spell--to summon the beastie. With Occlumency, Harry is attempting to get into a state and maintain it. The Patronus may be complex, but it's still really just a Charm. > But Lupin doesn't give Harry any direction as what *type* of happy > memory to go for. Just as Snape doesn't give Harry directions on > how exactly to focus. Perhaps because any strong happy memory will work? "Happy memory" is already a fairly concrete category of thing, as opposed to "focus". In fact, thinking about being happy is one way to get little aikido students to relax and be able to focus. :) > Because Harry *never* has a strong enough happy thought. Not in > PoA, anyway. Even the thought of going to live with Sirius produces > a mere mist. Nothing is pulled from Harry. Even with the > incantation he was very nearly food for the dementors. It was only > the paradox of time travel that caused the Patronus to form (the > happiness of knowing he could do it, I guess, or maybe that *he* was > his father). This is rather contradictory; let's play a logic game. Harry must have a very happy memory in mind to summon a Patronus. Harry summons a Patronus. Ergo, Harry must have called forth a very happy memory-- or at least a state of such. Of course for plot and personal reasons he can't do it until the very end, but I really don't see what your point is here. > No exercises? Nora, Snape assigns Harry nightly exercises. That > Harry chooses not to do them is not really Snape's fault. I think > you're still looking at this as a muggle discipline, and it's not. "Clear your mind", vague as it is, is not an exercise but rather (so we are told) the goal that Snape is trying to get Harry to. Visualizations are games and exercises that get one to clear the mind. Practicing the charm itself beforehand is an exercise. >> -Nora is admittedly biased, but does know at least a something about clearing one's mind and how to teach it< > Not to wizards and witches, you don't. Unless you've been holding > back on us and are actually a member of the WW. :) I don't buy your exceptionalism argument. We are all human, wizards and Muggles, and therefore these basic fundamental ideas about mind/body relationships and such should apply. A stiff muscle is always weaker than a relaxed one; a tense and nervous mind is always less functionally alert than a relaxed and aware on. Now, if you want to toss out these ideas about subtle psychological functioning, then you should also toss out all your Muggle ideas about the psychology of the characters in other areas. No more arguments about Draco and his daddy, or how Draco really just wants to be friends with Harry, since that's obviously Muggle thinking. We're happy to think about characters psychologically in broad strokes--why not think about the lower levels too? Magic is, in many forms, intention made manifest--and there are all kinds of ways that we poor non-magical folk have to study the relationships between intention and action, and how to get from one to the other. (Try Pilates. You'll learn a lot about how your mind and actions work that way.) I think I've demonstrated in the past how some of the language and ideas line up very neatly, while keeping meaningful distinctions between state and action. I don't see any reason to assume that wizards are so unlike us; JKR is certainly not writing the kind of mystical and numinous fantasy world where this might really apply. Now, if JKR were playing in the kinds of things that A. S. Byatt complained that she doesn't, I'd be happier to play with that argument. But in many ways the HP series is very mundane fantasy (that's a thread in and of itself), and the whole point of the thing on one level is a kind of meta-critique of current 'Muggle' society. Hence why I don't want to be so choosily exceptional without overt reasons, and I don't think those have been demonstrated. -Nora notes that WW exceptionalism is a very, very well greased slope From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 8 13:12:53 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 06:12:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Underage Wizardry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003301c56c2b$c81833b0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130297 Random new topic but in the fifth book Fred and George are using magic outside of school. They passed their apparation test and were going all over the place. If Harry had to go to a trial for fighting off dementors and he was in a lot of trouble, then why can Fred and George do magic without getting in trouble? It sounds like they are very strict about underage wizardry for Harry. Is it ok for the twins to do magic because it's their last year at school? They can do magic whenever. I would still think that I would consider them to be underage. Or is it that the Weasley family is all wizards that they overlooked this? Or that they thought Harry was crazy and overlooked the Weasleys? Can someone help me with this? Sherry now: The twins would have turned 17 in April of GOF. I believe they even say that when the age restriction for the triwizard tournament is announced. WW kids are of age at 17 and therefore, they would be able to use magic whenever they choose. Yet they would still go to school because they haven't finished yet. Just as kids here in the US can still be in their senior year of high school even when they are 18, legal adults and even eligible to vote. sherry From happydogue at aol.com Wed Jun 8 13:29:13 2005 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:29:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Underage Wizardry In-Reply-To: <003301c56c2b$c81833b0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <8C73A45323B0F6D-A50-1138F@mblk-r36.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130298 I was wondering about this last night too. In general housedhold life it seems as if kids would begin doing chores etc using magic. Why whould a mom clean the kitchen after dinner using magic but a kid would be expected to wash the dishes by hand? How about laundry or cleaning on one's room. When magic would make it so easy. Besides there seems to be no classes at HW regarding using magic in everyday life. It seems odd that a child couldn't learn this everyday use of magic at home and use it under supervision instead of waiting until he/or she was of age to peel carrots using magic. Of course we need to remember its only a book. j -----Original Message----- From: Sherry Gomes To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 06:12:53 -0700 Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Underage Wizardry Random new topic but in the fifth book Fred and George are using magic outside of school. They passed their apparation test and were going all over the place. If Harry had to go to a trial for fighting off dementors and he was in a lot of trouble, then why can Fred and George do magic without getting in trouble? It sounds like they are very strict about underage wizardry for Harry. Is it ok for the twins to do magic because it's their last year at school? They can do magic whenever. I would still think that I would consider them to be underage. Or is it that the Weasley family is all wizards that they overlooked this? Or that they thought Harry was crazy and overlooked the Weasleys? Can someone help me with this? Sherry now: The twins would have turned 17 in April of GOF. I believe they even say that when the age restriction for the triwizard tournament is announced. WW kids are of age at 17 and therefore, they would be able to use magic whenever they choose. Yet they would still go to school because they haven't finished yet. Just as kids here in the US can still be in their senior year of high school even when they are 18, legal adults and even eligible to vote. sherry Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 13:31:59 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:31:59 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest: Email entry to Tiger, too! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130299 Just a reminder: If you don't email your entry to me (Tiger), then you are *not* entered in the HBP prediction contest. You will receive a confirmation of your entry by email after you email your predictions to me. Only 36 days left to enter the contest! The HBP contest closes at noon EDT on Friday, July 15. TK -- TigerPatronus From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 8 13:36:10 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 06:36:10 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Underage Wizardry In-Reply-To: <8C73A45323B0F6D-A50-1138F@mblk-r36.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <003701c56c2f$08fc43a0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130300 I was wondering about this last night too. In general housedhold life it seems as if kids would begin doing chores etc using magic. Why whould a mom clean the kitchen after dinner using magic but a kid would be expected to wash the dishes by hand? How about laundry or cleaning on one's room. When magic would make it so easy. Besides there seems to be no classes at HW regarding using magic in everyday life. It seems odd that a child couldn't learn this everyday use of magic at home and use it under supervision instead of waiting until he/or she was of age to peel carrots using magic. Sherry: I've kind of wondered about this, too. My guess is that in wizarding families, children must be taught some things under the supervision of their parents, much like a muggle teenager learning to drive with its parents. Maybe the law is more strict in Harry's situation, or with other half-blood or muggle borns, because of the proximity of muggles. I just can't imagine that WW kids never ever do magic or learn anything before age 11. Sherry From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Jun 8 13:38:22 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:38:22 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130301 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > We have debated all sides of the Occlumency situation. Whoever we > blame for the failure of Harry to learn Occlumency, I think that we can > all agree that Occlumency is important skill to have when battling the > Dark Lord. I think that that is the main thing that JKR wants us to > remember. Hmmm. First of all, I don't think JKR is trying to teach anyone anything. She is telling a story, within which Occlumency serves several purposes. Given her horror of preaching and her stated disdain for stories and scenes built around particular "morals" to be told, I think advancing her story is what she is doing. Any "moral" or "message" is at best secondary. First of all, we can't really say that Occlumency is a vital and necessary skill for battling the Dark Lord, since most of the people who are battling him can't do it. If it were that important, it would be a regular part of the Hogwarts curriculum. We might argue that it is an important skill for Harry to have, but I wouldn't even want to go that far. It wasn't Occlumency that saved Harry in the end, as several people have pointed out, and it wasn't calm and clearing his mind of emotion, but the exact opposite (i.e. FILLING himself with emotion). Beyond specifics, what general themes was she introducing? Well, there truly is the theme of control of emotions or lack thereof (in the case of both Snape and Harry). There is the theme of Dumbledore and his responsibilities and mistakes. There is the theme, oft mentioned by nrenka, of how the dysfunctional relationship between Harry and Snape has built up over the years to the point of disaster. There is the theme of memory and identity, and the way the past determines the present and the future. And, of course, it laid the foundation, ultimately, for the "I'll never forgive him" scene at the end of OOTP, with all its dark implications for the future. Altogether, it IS an incredibly pregnant sequence, and it's no wonder Occlumency is a subject we keep coming back to. How will these themes play out? I don't think it's at all clear. For instance how will the idea of controlling one's emotions appear in the last two books? I don't know. It could be a dominant theme. It could, however, turn out to be merely a practical matter (i.e. calm down Harry so we can talk). It could be presented as a part of adolescent development (i.e. not so much that there are lessons to be learned as that this is just the process adolescents go through, hormones and all). It could turn out to be a very ambivalent subject - - for instance it might well turn out that while it's a bad idea to be completely controlled by emotion, it's a worse one to repress your emotions to the point of coldness (as Voldemort and to a certain extent Snape have done). So, in short, I don't think we know enough at this point to say much at all about how the Occlumency episode and the themes it introduced will impact the last two books. But, we don't have that long to wait. Lupinlore From k.coble at comcast.net Wed Jun 8 13:50:33 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:50:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b0053c58a18dfda4b4e53a43a92e404@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130302 On Jun 8, 2005, at 6:04 AM, deborahhbbrd wrote: > The prophecy certainly seems to suggest the deaths of both Harry and > Voldemort, and this would be rather a weak ending in my view, though > pretty well in line with Hamlet. > > But actually, child readers can put up with death if it's well > motivated. What about Beth in Little Women K: Beth was clearly not the main character. Likening Beth's death to Harry's is faulty. It would be more like Neville's death, were that to happen. > - or did she survive into > Good Wives? K: Yes. She dies a far bit into _Good Wives_. Most modern editions of LW include Good Wives as a 2nd part of the whole; thus the confusion. \ > (Nobody reads The Old Curiosity Shop any more, so let's > ignore Little Nell - but grown men and women wept in the streets when > the magazine in which she finally became extinct appeared, and they > all survived and kept on buying Dickens!) K: Little Nell was the unfortunate byproduct of Dickens' canonization of his dead sister-in-law, Mary Hogarth. He was so torn up by her death that he 'worked through it' in the person of Little Nell. At any rate In 1841 the death of children was far more common, especially children as ill used as Nell. But you said it best yourself when you said "Nobody reads The Old Curiosity Shop anymore" Dickens' parables don't all weather well...this one is unfortunately preceeded by the bad word of mouth. > And there's always the final > CS Lewis volume in the Lion, Witch and Wardrobe series - is it The > Last Battle? K: Yep. My personal favourite of all of the CoN. > The three main human characters - Peter, Edmund and Lucy > - are in a train crash, and are delighted to discover that they've > died in it because now they need never leave their alternative world. K: We see many of the English participants "die" in England to be resurrected in Narnia. Their "death" is merely the 'wardrobe device' used to bring them to Narnia for the culmination of events there. It actually inserts them into the action, rather than removing them from it. They exist fully as both observers and participants in the end stage events in Narnia. > Which is obviously heaven, since Narnia ends. And we know that the > books were written with a clearly evangelical purpose ... which we > don't know about the HP books. We may suspect that they follow the > usual pattern of good triumphing over evil, but to call this Christian > is too narrow. > K: Good discussions of this exist over at Hans' group. I'm enjoying them immensley. > The idea of Dumbledore rising from the dead like a phoenix is > charming, but alas! I can see too many holes in it. K: Resurrection is a key theme in the books. Basically, taking comfort in life after death as a form of resurrection. I think this is why we have the repeated theme of the Phoenix. I'd expect that, like Dickens, this is how JKR works through the death of someone close to her--in this case her mother. > And as for Harry, > my best bet is still that he survives as a mortal being but without > his magical talent - becomes a Squib, I suppose. K: Ack. I'd rather see him dead. I know that sounds bitter, but Harry Potter's _home_ is in the WW. I don't want to see him orphaned twice. I think that Harry will retain is Wizard abilities given to him by LV on the curse night. He (Harry) is the crucible in which that part of LV is redeemed. I'm still in disagreement with Tonks on the redemption of Tom Riddle as a whole, but I think that part of him--his magic, his abilities--can be redeemed through Harry. > My other great hope of the moment is that JKR is less, er, sentimental > than some of her fans! Children are the great realists, remember. > K: Children handle death well when it is the death of a pet or the death of an older relation. I don't expect that they will handle the death of their hero well. Yes, everyone dies. But there is no structural story reason thus far that I can see for Harry to die. Some people seem to be fond of the idea because it would be a "cool twist" or something. But other than that, no one can explain to me why, story-wise, he _needs_ to die, or be reduced. Unless Voldemort survives. And that would be pointless. As a final note, I'd like to mention that one character who died was brought back to life by the author, when public outcry was so great. My beloved Sherlock, who persists on living to this day. People's relationship to Harry seems much more akin to Sherlock than any of the above. Katherine [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 15:07:08 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:07:08 -0000 Subject: The Final Showdown Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130303 Something occurred to me recently. We've all been assuming that the Big Confrontation between Harry and LV will take place at the end of book seven, most likely in June of his seventh year. It stands to reason, after all--that's the pattern that's been set up. But there's nothing to say that the final battle won't take place earlier, is there? Say, at Halloween of his seventh year? Or even during HBP? If that were to be the case, the rest of the book(s) would deal with all of the other issues--the sorting out of loyalties and romantic stuff, the paying of old debts, that sort of thing. If LV were to go down (and I think we all assume that he will eventually go down, one way or another--death, time- turnered back to babydom, whatever) in book six, there's even room for Bonkers Bella and friends to stand in as antagonists for a bit. And of course, if that were to be the case, the question of Harry's survival viz a viz the prophesy would be moot--the series really can't go more than a chapter or two after Harry's demise, since the point of view has been almost entirely over his shoulder up to this point. So, what do we think? Is there any possibility that LV will buy it before June of 1998? Antosha, who isn't sure, but thought he should throw the idea around From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 8 15:13:08 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:13:08 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130304 Potioncat: > I think JKR wrote this chapter to cover several things at once. We saw > how to counter a Boggart, JKR got to stick it to Snape without really > sticking it to Snape, and she created some comic relief, for us and for > the characters. Pippin: We also got to see how different teachers deal with a colleague who upset their class. Not that I didn't enjoy boggart Snape as much as anyone, but I would love to have seen McGonagall deal with the poisoned toad trauma..."You will be relieved to know, Mr. Longbottom, that Professor Snape has been threatening to poison someone or something ever since he came to this school. There have been no casualties [beat] so far." McGonagall lets her Gryffindors know her opinion of Trelawney, as one family member to another, with the skillful use of praeteritio (I'm not going to tell you that that's a pretended omission for rhetorical effect) . She also lets them know that it would reflect badly on *her* if she were known to be badmouthing a colleague. That seems to keep the gossip down; at any rate we don't hear that McGonagall's opinion of Trelawney is the talk of the school. (If it were, everyone would already know that Sybil's a fraud.) Unlike the situation between Snape and Lupin. Nora: I think it's a hypothetic that Snape wouldn't have found some reason and/or way to become aggravated with Neville. He does it so very well. Pippin: I suppose this is essentialism, which I don't understand anyway. Are you saying that if Harry hadn't had the aggravations he did in OOP, he'd have found some other reason to be CAPSLOCK!Harry? Or does this fixed in the groove thing apply only to certain characters? Pippin From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 15:43:52 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:43:52 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Nora: > > I think it's a hypothetic that Snape wouldn't have found some reason > and/or way to become aggravated with Neville. He does it so very > well. > > Pippin: > I suppose this is essentialism, which I don't understand anyway. You might study up on it, since JKR's universe is rather essentialist. That's the only way I can make sense of reading the whole "Choices *show* what we are, far more than our abilities" statement. As well as JKR's recent comments about Harry vs. Neville as Prophecy Boy: "Would a Neville bearing the lightning scar have been as successful at evading Voldemort as Harry has been? Would Neville have had the qualities that have enabled Harry to remain strong and sane throughout all of his many ordeals? Although Dumbledore does not say as much, he does not believe so: he believes Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to be able to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar." Innate qualities that Harry has and Neville doesn't; that's textbook essentialism. The more I think about it, the more I become convinced that JKR thinks of her characters with Character in mind. This is not to say that people are necessarily completely static, but that they are born with abilities and tendencies and their choices express what they are. Something like ESE!Lupin is based on a very different read of what Lupin actually *is*, which is something yet to be settled in the books. I'll still take my cautious bet against, and if I happen to be right I will very much enjoy reading your rethinking of the themes of the series, Pippin :) > Are you saying that if Harry hadn't had the aggravations he did > in OOP, he'd have found some other reason to be > CAPSLOCK!Harry? Or does this fixed in the groove thing apply only to > certain characters? I think some characters have shown themselves to be more fixed in grooves than others, yes. Some characters are more fixated upon particular ways of thinking and courses of action than others; some are more open to re-evaluation of their ideas. And if Harry hadn't had those aggravations, we scarcely would have had a book, methinks. What weighs upon him is what drives the plot itself, and seems more manifold than what bothers most characters. (Not to mention that Harry wasn't even what I was discussing at the moment, but _tu quoque_ is so easy to fall into.) -Nora isn't terribly comfortable with essentialism either, but as it seems to be what's in play here, nothing to do but suck it up and think about it From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 16:27:34 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:27:34 -0000 Subject: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <6b0053c58a18dfda4b4e53a43a92e404@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130306 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > > K: Children handle death well when it is the death of a pet or the > death of an older relation. I don't expect that they will handle > the death of their hero well. Yes, everyone dies. But there is no > structural story reason thus far that I can see for Harry to die. > Some people seem to be fond of the idea because it would be a "cool > twist" or something. But other than that, no one can explain to me > why, story-wise, he _needs_ to die, or be reduced. Unless Voldemort > survives. And that would be pointless. > > As a final note, I'd like to mention that one character who died was > brought back to life by the author, when public outcry was so great. > My beloved Sherlock, who persists on living to this day. People's > relationship to Harry seems much more akin to Sherlock than any of > the above. > > Katherine bboyminn: Sometimes leaving the main character, the hero, alive at the end serves the reader well, but it's not necessarily a good thing for the hero. I just finished reading "Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card, which I highly recommend, and here we see a hero that like many hero's is horribly damage by his experience. He is left with a crushing weariness combine with an unyeliding weight of conscience, that while it eases over his lifetime, never truly lifts. He is so damgage by his experience that he can never be the person he had the potential to be before his 'heroic experience'. There is a limit to how much misery, stress, and trama, and how much weight a human can endure before he is damaged in ways that can never truly be healed. This is true of real life heroes as well, we welcome them back from the war, we pat their back, we shake their hands, we throw them parades, and give them metals, and we think that makes up for the lifetime of damage and misery we leave them with. It's true, within a certain perspective, there are fates worse than death. I also want to point out another aspect of literature, the always 'happily ever after' ending is, to some extent, a Western culture construct. There are certain cultures that really do love a good tragedy, they like a sad story, or a bittersweet ending. They prefer their entertainment to leave them with some emotion rather than being 2.5hrs of mind-numbing escape from reality. I have speculated that it's possible for Harry's story to have a bittersweet ending. That yes Harry lives, but not without deep abiding scars. Not without a terrible price paid to the hero's soul. Part of that price could be to some extent an abandoning of the wizard world. Right now, as an escape from the Dursley's, the wizard world is the place where he finds peace. But how much piece will he have after Voldemort's defeat. Look at how much Harry hates his hero's status among the public now, and think how much attention and pressure he will feel after defeating Voldmort. Politician will want to use him, the public will never stop hounding him, never stop pounding him with their adoration. It's possible that once this is over, Harry will be so weary that all he wants to do is forget about it and live his life in peace, but what peace will he find in the wizard world? What peace would Frodo find if he return the the Hobbits? What peace would Ender Wiggin have found if he had returned to earth? Sadly, sometimes the pain of being a hero is so great, that you can never go home. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboymin PS: I don't have words strong enough to tell you what a great, deep, moving as well as charming story "Ender's Game" is. I bought it recently in paperback at WalMart for $4.00, and if I have paid 10 times that much I would have still gotten more than my money's worth. This is a gripping moving story that has tremedous heart and even more soul. If you love literature, then you really need to add this to your list of good books. If you doubt me, you can read excerpts and independant reviews at Amazon.com. I've had it describe to me as the greatest science fiction story ever written. From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Wed Jun 8 16:28:04 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:28:04 -0000 Subject: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130307 > BG writes: Harry and LV > will both die in book 7. Harry will have everlasting life because > of his choices. He will release LV from his "worse than death" > existence by killing him. Harry will go "into the light" and LV > will cease to exist ? anywhere. By choosing to do what was right, > Harry he will live forever, in Heaven. LV chose evil and he will > die. Unless Harry returns to Hogwarts as a ghost. Not because he was afraid to move on but because he loved it so much it's "like" heaven to him. Casey From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 8 16:45:43 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:45:43 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One -- The Prank (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130308 Nora: > You might study up on it, since JKR's universe is rather essentialist. That's the only way I can make sense of reading the whole "Choices *show* what we are, far more than our abilities" statement. As well as JKR's recent comments about Harry vs. Neville as Prophecy Boy: > > "Would a Neville bearing the lightning scar have been as successful at evading Voldemort as Harry has been? Would Neville have had the qualities that have enabled Harry to remain strong and sane throughout all of his many ordeals? Although Dumbledore does not say as much, he does not believe so: he believes Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to be able to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar." > > Innate qualities that Harry has and Neville doesn't; that's textbook essentialism. > Pippin: The important word for me in the quote is "remain" -- Harry remained strong and sane under conditions in which Neville's strength and sanity would have crumbled. However, as Neville has not been forced to undergo those ordeals, his strength and sanity are intact-- he is in Gryffindor after all. Therefore, strength and sanity can not be essentials, and Harry has some other quality which enabled him to preserve his strength and sanity. One might imagine that if Neville had been subjected to Harry's life, he might have died, or become like Riddle to survive. What is open is to what extent strength and sanity can be restored once they are damaged. Since Dumbledore believes in second chances, I don't see how he can be an essentialist, but maybe I am missing something. Ron and Hagrid are the essentialists, if you ask me. 'Poisonous toadstools don't change their spots', 'Bad blood--that's what it is'. Harry is wavering -- he was raised to be an essentialist, the Dursleys are nothing if not that-- but Dumbledore is swaying his ideas. Nora: > The more I think about it, the more I become convinced that JKR thinks of her characters with Character in mind. This is not to say that people are necessarily completely static, but that they are born with abilities and tendencies and their choices express what they are. Something like ESE!Lupin is based on a very different read of what Lupin actually *is*, which is something yet to be settled in the books. I'll still take my cautious bet against, and if I happen to be right I will very much enjoy reading your rethinking of the themes of the series, Pippin :) Pippin: It will be like having a whole new set of books to read! But Lupin, good or bad, seems to be about a refusal to choose. There never was a character so set on having his cake and eating it. Pippin From mggoulden at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 8 11:34:55 2005 From: mggoulden at yahoo.co.uk (Michael) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:34:55 -0000 Subject: Has anyone thought that Dumbledore knows what the outcome is going to be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: hogwarts121943:"That time turner, what makes us think that he [DD?] has not used it to see what is going to [happen to?] Harry? He can't interfere with what is going to happen, but he can keep Harry safe..." Jim Ferer: "Dumbledore *should* have told Harry about the eye contact thing, along with a lot of other stuff. His avoidance hurt Harry. It won't happen again, but some damage was done, particularly the MoM battle that included Sirius's death. OTOH, the battle was a major defeat for Voldemort." mggoulden: Hello all. First time poster, so I've got my fingers crossed I'm doing everything right! Dumbledore is my favourite character in the books because he has always come across as deceptively complex. Also, he's powerful, both physically and politically, but never comes across as arrogant or manipulative, although there is a definitive Machiavellian streak in him! Does he know the future? Interestingly, I have come across a theory - implausible - which states that he did meddle with time during the events of Halloween 1980 in order to keep Harry safe from harm: (http://www.redhen-publications.com/24Hours.html). Add to this, his positively ludicrous decision to entrust an innocent man's fate to two 13 year-old wizards, and something is decidedly fishy. And yet, I just don't believe that Dumbledore would openly and brazenly meddle with time - he himself says it is dangerous (from experiece, perhaps? You see, it's still fishy!) - but then I am clouded by my desire to see the old Headmaster of Hogwarts in a positive light. In my opinion, he is the proverbial shrewd operator, who's guesses tend to be right 90% of the time. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, I think people too often can't force themselves away from the "Harry POV". Of course we want Dumbledore to tell the boy everything; otherwise how are we supposed to find out? Contrary to this attitude, I've always fought against the narrow perspective JKR gives us in her stories, and the advantages this attitude can bring are greatest in PS and OotP, and in both instances, it's because of Dumbledore. Let me explain: I believe that in PS Dumbledore knew that Professor Quirrel was under the control of Voldemort. As such, he had the Philosopher's Stone placed in the school to tempt Voldemort out of hiding. Now, I'm sure the Headmaster didn't know Voldemort was under the turban, but he did know that he was around somewhere. His trick with the Mirror of Erised at the end was a masterstroke, possibly designed to keep Voldemort/Quirrel stumped so that he could confront them. Unfortunately, Harry got involved. I'm not the first to come up with this idea, but I certainly subscribe to it, partly because it highlights my favourite aspect of the stories: the mental and political conflict between Dumbledore and Voldemort. In OotP, the Headmaster utilised the same trick that he did in PS - he explicitly tempted Voldemort with an object the latter was desperate to obtain, i.e, the Prophecy. Dumbledore knew, and Voldemort came to know, that only two people can take Prophecies out of the DoM - in this instance, Harry and Voldemort. The two enemies know that Voldemort doesn't want to risk rushing into the Ministry himself as that would result in the exposure of his return (which is what happened in a roundabout way - see how Fudge was alerted?), so that leaves just Harry. Dumbledore kept Harry in the dark precisely because he knew Voldemort was always there in the boy's head somewhere; some of Harry's anger was down to Voldemort, surely? All the "cloak and dagger" stuff in OotP highlights this mental battle of wills between the Headmaster and the Dark Lord, locking horns in a way they have been doing ever since Dumbledore suspected Riddle of opening the Chamber. It's fascinating reading OotP from this perspective; the machinations at play are numerous and fairly complex. Yes, keeping Harry unawares hurt him and ultimately led to Sirius' death, but Dumbledore (who is perhaps a closet utilitarian) never lost sight of the ultimate goal: to reveal Voldemort's return and get the Ministry back on his side. Sirius may have been killed, but now the world knows You Know Who is back. In light of this, I have to ask myself, would Dumbledore do things differently if he could go back and change things? And even though he's my favourite character, I have to say that, given the choice, Dumbledore probably wouldn't change a thing. -Michael From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 17:13:12 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:13:12 -0000 Subject: Character (was: Re: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130310 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > The important word for me in the quote is "remain" -- Harry > remained strong and sane under conditions in which Neville's > strength and sanity would have crumbled. However, as Neville has > not been forced to undergo those ordeals, his strength and sanity > are intact-- he is in Gryffindor after all. > > Therefore, strength and sanity can not be essentials, and Harry has > some other quality which enabled him to preserve his strength and > sanity. One might imagine that if Neville had been subjected to > Harry's life, he might have died, or become like Riddle to survive. I really, really don't understand your logic here. Your reading would mean that Neville's strength and sanity were of an inferior quality to Harry's possession of those virtues. [Aristotelian and Platonic philosophy and their discussion of virtue (_arete_, which can also mean excellence or skill), is essentialist-- these are innate qualities and properties.] In those terms then, Harry is more excellent in his virtue than Neville because Neville might have cracked but Harry has not. This is operative whether or not Neville went through what Harry did. What it does boil down to is that JKR is pretty much saying that (at least Dumbledore thinks) that Harry is innately, and this got him through his crappy life, in possession of certain qualities. Strength and sanity, and even the ability to preserve one's character under fire, are essential components of someone's character, the very stuff of what a person is. > What is open is to what extent strength and sanity can be restored > once they are damaged. Since Dumbledore believes in second chances, > I don't see how he can be an essentialist, but maybe I am missing > something. Because he believes in the possibility of things which are there but hidden becoming manifest. But if it was never, ever there to begin with, then it cannot become so. Here's some support for the fire: JKR's comments that Tom Riddle has *never* loved anyone. Tom Riddle is thus innately deficient, defective in virtue...and what isn't there at all can never show itself. This comment which has boggled many a listie as unrealistic and not fitting into her world system makes sense from an essentialist perspective. > Ron and Hagrid are the essentialists, if you ask me. 'Poisonous > toadstools don't change their spots', 'Bad blood--that's what it > is'. Harry is wavering -- he was raised to be an essentialist, > the Dursleys are nothing if not that-- but Dumbledore is swaying > his ideas. The DEs are a particular kind of essentialist, as well. But you don't have to be a DE variety to still subscribe to an essentialist philosophy (such as virtue ethics) as opposed to an existentialist one (a bit of an artificial divide at times but meaningful!), and I submit that's a lot of what JKR is playing with. Of course there's a strong volition component in there, but that seems to operate as a component of character. -Nora wonders what will happen if we don't get that whole new set of books to read... From muggles at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 16:47:39 2005 From: muggles at gmail.com (RR) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:47:39 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130311 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > I agree that the ending can not be predictable. I also think that > either DD or Harry must die, but not both. It would just be too much > of a blow if they both died. Ok, I admit that I like the first most (marrying Ginny and having 12 children). Besides, I'm almost convinced that DD will die at the end of book seven. It seems that a big sacrifice like that is in order. Hard times coming. But there are plenty of surprises in the series (as you very well say) and it may be that both of them survive, despite the "are you sure Harry survives the seventh book?" that Jo always says. I think she does so to keep the mistery. Blackrobes From Cyrna at europe.de Wed Jun 8 09:43:45 2005 From: Cyrna at europe.de (Danny) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:43:45 +0200 Subject: OP members contacting each other In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c56c0e$91d95ad0$0b01a8c0@dannypc> No: HPFGUIDX 130312 >Bonnie: >Chapter 28 of GOF >speaking of DD " He raised his wand into the air and pointed it in >the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart >out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird." >Bonnie again: >Then shortly afterward Hagrid appears. I wonder if this silvery >stuff is the same stuff in the pensives. -Thoughts- perhaps? Not really, as everyone we see using a Pensieve first has to drag the thoughts out of his head per wand. Also it flies of it's own accord, when the thoughts just fall like leaves in autumn. "Snape pulled out his wand from an inside pocket [...] but Snape merely raised the wand to his temple and placed it's tip into the greasy roots of his hair. When he withdrew it some silvery substance came away stretching from temple to wand like a thick gossamer strand, which broke as he pulled the wand away from it and fell gracefully into the Pensieve." OotP (Bloomsbury ed) p471 It could be something similar though. Does it have any connection with the Patronus? It's also silvery stuff and you have to think to make it happen (ok, most of the wizarding spells are made by thinking, so not a valid point by this evidence) Danny (who couldn't find the scenes with Dumbledore in the earlier books) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jeterluver2 at aol.com Wed Jun 8 17:09:10 2005 From: jeterluver2 at aol.com (Marissa) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:09:10 -0000 Subject: Possible Ministry Regulations (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130313 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > "Jennifer": > > > I'm not trying to start a political discussion, but I think these > > might be some possible ideas: > > > > Laws > > 1. Penalties > > a. Death Penalty (AK or veil) for: > > i. Anyone convicted of DE activity with or without Dark Mark > > ii. Death Penalty only available when Wizengamot renders > > unanimous verdict. > > Finwitch: > > I can't help thinking of poor Sirius - you must first make certain > that people DO, at least, get a trial! Marissa: I agree with Finwitch and also want to bring up another point. The Death Penality is absolutely final. There is no way to go back and fix it if there is a mistake. Which brings to mind, to me at least, one of the most obvious lessons of Potterverse, "Things aren't always what they seem to be." Sirius wasn't the murderer that he seemed, Snape wasn't helping Voldemort, Riddle wasn't just a noble Head Boy, Mrs. Figg etc... Crouch had what JKR terms "admittedly rather convincing" evidence on Sirius, and Sirius probably would've been put into Azkaban even if there was a trial. If they had used the death penalty, then Sirius would have been dead even though he had been innocent. So even if they are allowed a trial, with all the magical loopholes in this world it would be hard to be 100% completely sure of anything enough to condemn a person to death. JKR's Quote http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=105 From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 8 17:42:31 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:42:31 -0000 Subject: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130314 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > And as for Harry, > my best bet is still that he survives as a mortal being but without > his magical talent - becomes a Squib, I suppose. And that would be a > kind of death. But certainly gentler than the real thing, and > something that could very well move the plot along to its conclusion: > something like: only by Harry doing a Prospero and renouncing that > rough magic can Voldemort lose his own power. What could possibly be gentle about Harry becoming either an outcast or a severely handicapped person in the world he has come to love? Never be able to ride a broom, no more quidditch, never be able to have an equal relationship with his friends because he cannot even do the simplest of magic any more? What kind of futere would he have? Become the next Filch? Or go back to the muggle world with no education? I've seen stories where the hero looses his magic. But what happened was that he became just an ordinary person again. Not something less. And that is what would happen if Harry would loose his magic. Besides: what rough magic? That would imply that Harry's magic only comes from LV, and that he was born as a squib. Now squibs are extremely rare according to canon, so why would this little boy be one? I can see him loosing the ability to speak parceltonque or any other powers LV gave him. But magic belongs to Harry. As an ordinary person in the WW. Gerry From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 17:13:16 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:13:16 -0000 Subject: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130315 Casey wrote: Unless Harry returns to Hogwarts as a ghost. Not because he was afraid to move on but because he loved it so much it's "like" heaven to him. Let's remember Harry is a teenager, he may think Hogwarts is a lot more like Heaven than Privet Drive... But, heaven is school??? No way, he enjoys the Burrow much more, or even 12 GP (when Sirius was alive). Who in their right mind would like to spend all eternity at their school? I had fun in high school, but I would never go back for longer than a few hours. IMO of course Juli From vloe at dallasnews.com Wed Jun 8 17:02:38 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (firebird) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:02:38 -0000 Subject: The late Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130316 >Bboyminn wrote: > >I have speculated that it's possible for Harry's story to have a >bittersweet ending. That yes Harry lives, but not without deep abiding >scars. Not without a terrible price paid to the hero's soul. I foresee a different bittersweet ending -- with more emphasis on the sweet. I think Harry will want to die but will choose to live because he must, to defeat LV per the prophecy. Fortunately, that sacrifice will not only save the WW but will, mysteriously, ease his terrible loneliness and sense of loss. Lily's choice gave him his destiny as The Boy Who Lived. It's now up to him to choose that destiny for himself. Harry has had a subliminal death wish ever since we met him. As an orphan, he feels a natural curiosity about and even a yearning for the realm beyond the veil. His instinct when he encountered the Mirror of Erised in PS/SS was to plunge into its surface and be reunited with his parents. (Actually, if you read that passage next to the description of Sirius' death, the imagery is almost identical.) Moving through the books, Harry has resigned himself to death a number of times, although he's always wanted to die with dignity. From the moment he encountered the veil in OoP, he wanted to step through the archway. Dumbledore and Luna have reinforced the idea that death is not to be feared. By the end of OoP, Harry was wanting, pretty overtly, to die -- or at least not to endure the pain of living. Among DD's "things that are worse than death" is, perhaps, the fear of death. Being consumed by that fear, LV is fated to die. Being free of that fear, Harry is free to choose. That makes him truly alive in a way LV is not. His victory -- and the salvation of the WW -- is to embrace life in all its pain. firebird From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 8 18:19:19 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:19:19 -0000 Subject: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130317 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble > I have speculated that it's possible for Harry's story to have a > bittersweet ending. That yes Harry lives, but not without deep abiding > scars. Not without a terrible price paid to the hero's soul. > > Part of that price could be to some extent an abandoning of the wizard > world. Right now, as an escape from the Dursley's, the wizard world is > the place where he finds peace. But how much piece will he have after > Voldemort's defeat. Look at how much Harry hates his hero's status > among the public now, and think how much attention and pressure he > will feel after defeating Voldmort. Politician will want to use him, > the public will never stop hounding him, never stop pounding him with > their adoration. It's possible that once this is over, Harry will be > so weary that all he wants to do is forget about it and live his life > in peace, but what peace will he find in the wizard world? What peace > would Frodo find if he return the the Hobbits? What peace would Ender > Wiggin have found if he had returned to earth? Sadly, sometimes the > pain of being a hero is so great, that you can never go home. I like your point about the hero not being able to get back from wher he started. This is very true, but I don't think it will be as bleak for Harry. I think Harry will manage in the WW, and I don't think his situation can be compared with Ender's. Ender was a child who unwillingly became a mass murderer by exterminating a species. Also Ender was completely alone, was deliberately isolated from all friendly human contact, was made into a little killing machine. Harry is growing up, is very much aware of the threat he is in, and actively wants to stop this evil. One of the strenghts of Harry is that he has friends. He ia also not easy to manipulate. Politicians who want to use him, will have a very difficult time, because the way Harry is developing, a mature Harry will not let himself be used. As for fame: it is fickle, and people will forget. I dont' think Harry will have it easy, but not as hard as Ender. One of Frodo's problems is that from the beginning he was very much aware of the burden being his, and his alone. The others helped, but could not really share the burden. What kept Frode going was his vision of the Shire. But: he went away and found out that he had changed when he came back, and so had the Shire. You cannot go back to the past. Harry is not going away, nor is he coming back. Harry is growing up in the world where the fight is. He has no ideal world where he wants to come back to, to find he has outgrown it (like a lot of soldiers have). Harry's fight is in the world, and as the world changes, so does he. In Harry's case, there is much more sharing, and much more common ground. Harry is not the only one to have suffered by the hands of LV, he is not the only one on the death list. He only now knows that he is instrumental in defeating LV, before that though he was 'the boy who lived' he knew this was not because of anything he himself did, so he did not perceive himself differently from others. Plus that in most fights he has had, he never was alone. So I think his emotional support network will give him opportunities to cope Frode and Ender never had. I can imagine him living somewhere more or less isolated, but I can easier imagine him to become a professional quidditch player an have a couple of years of pure fun before he figures out what he wants to do with the rest of his life. Though I cannot imagine him becoming Minister of Magic, that sounds far too boring for someone like him. Gerry From lealess at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 18:28:44 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:28:44 -0000 Subject: Character (was: Re: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: >big snip > Because he [Dumbledore giving second chances] believes in the > possibility of things which are there but > hidden becoming manifest. But if it was never, ever there to begin > with, then it cannot become so. > lealess: I am trying to understand this. Is essentialism then a black or white thing, a born bad or born good, in the blood thing -- a Griffindor or Slytherin thing -- determined at birth? Leaving second chances aside, although I think that is a good point (who gets second chances -- only the ones Dumbledore knows to be good? what about the string of disastrous DADA teachers?), what is the role of choice here? Are you saying that character determines choices, and not moral soul-searching or reflection, or a momentary lapse of awareness? Leaving out a sociopath like Tom Riddle, who probably doesn't have a choice based on whatever causes sociopathology, what about someone who makes a wrong choice and then works to correct it, who reforms (Snape, hopefully). What about someone who fails to make a right choice once (Lupin not taking wolfsbane before a full-moon evening) -- were all their choices predetermined by character? If that is true, then what does essentialism say about their characters? Just trying to understand this point of view. lealess From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 8 19:01:58 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:01:58 -0000 Subject: OP members contacting each other In-Reply-To: <000001c56c0e$91d95ad0$0b01a8c0@dannypc> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130319 >It could be something similar though. Does it have any connection with the Patronus? It's also silvery stuff and you have to think to make it happen (ok, most of the wizarding spells are made by thinking, so not a valid point by this evidence) >Danny (who couldn't find the scenes with Dumbledore in the earlier books) JLV here: I don't think it's a `pensieve thought-strand' either. I am inclined to think it is a patronus and I am basing this on the following bits of canon: "Rumour: The Order of the Phoenix communicates using chocolate frog cards. JKR: This is such a great idea that I was in two minds whether to shoot it down; however, a chocolate frog card, or any object that would have to be remembered and carried on the person, would always be vulnerable to loss, destruction or trickery. The Order communicates in a way that requires nothing but a wand. You saw the Order's method of communication in use even before you knew about the existence of the Order; it was employed by an Order member." (Website Rumours section) Connecting this to the silvery thing Dumbledore shoots out in GoF (ch. 28, p. 486, UK ed.): "[Dumbledore] raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird." I believe this is the method because: 1) Dumbledore seems to be sending a message to Hagrid 2) It only required a wand 3) We saw it before we knew about the Order As far as I have seen in discussions on this subject, no-one has come up with any other moment in the books which also fits these criteria - but that doesn't mean there isn't one! In making the connection between this "ghostly bird" and a patronus, I defer to descriptions of Patroni in PoA ans this Edinburgh Book Day quote: "What form does Dumbledore's Patronus take? Good question. Can anyone guess? You have had a clue. There was a little whisper there. It is a phoenix, which is very representative of Dumbledore for reasons that I am sure you can guess." Now, I took this clue to which JKR refers to be *exactly the same scene* in GoF where Dumbledore sends out the silvery thing. It is only a clue because we don't get to see the form of the bird because it is moving so fast. Now, it could be that I have completely misinterpreted this and the clue is just that Dumbledore has a Phoenix, but the fact she says "a clue" not "some clues" leads me to believe that she is referring to a specific incident ? this moment on GoF ? rather than a more general selection of clues. But this is all just my opinion, of course! JLV xx From lyraofjordan at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 19:18:04 2005 From: lyraofjordan at yahoo.com (lyraofjordan) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:18:04 -0000 Subject: Underage Wizardry In-Reply-To: <8C73A45323B0F6D-A50-1138F@mblk-r36.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130320 j wrote: > In general housedhold life it seems as if kids would begin doing > chores, etc., using magic. Besides there seems to be no > classes at HW regarding using magic in everyday life. It seems > odd that a child couldn't learn this everyday use of magic at > home and use it under supervision instead of waiting until he or > she was of age to peel carrots using magic. Lyra: Yes, to me it's one of the irritating things about the WW. They spend tons of time learning how to transfigure a porcupine into a pincushion, and many equally, basically useless other tricks, but Tonks (in an early OOTP chapter) admits she's never learned the "householdy" spells. And she knows a spell for packing Harry's trunk, but just barely. Now, wouldn't the packing spell be a good one to teach any Hogwarts kid, since they have to pack up their belongings and cart them off to school/home at least once each per year. I guess someone needs to convince Dumbledore that "domestic magic" would be a useful subject. (He might realize it's a lot less dodgy than divination.) From jeterluver2 at aol.com Wed Jun 8 19:50:54 2005 From: jeterluver2 at aol.com (Marissa) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:50:54 -0000 Subject: Underage Wizardry - the twins In-Reply-To: <003301c56c2b$c81833b0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130321 > Sherry: > The twins would have turned 17 in April of GOF. I believe > they even say that when the age restriction for the triwizard > tournament is announced. WW kids are of age at 17 and > therefore, they would be able to use magic whenever they > choose. Marissa: Actually, I always wondered about Fred and George and their experimenting, not their apparating which as Sherry points out they were old enough to do. They seemed to be using magic to create Weasley's Wizard Wheezes. "We've been hearing explosions out of their room for ages, but we never thought they were actually making things,' said Ginny, 'we thought they just liked the noise." -GoF They weren't 17 in the fourth book, and Ginny says "for ages" so it obviously had been for a few years. Does creating potions or their inventions not count as magic? And even if it can't be detected, wouldn't they still have to use their wands to create ton-tongue toffees and canary creams? Maybe because there is so much magic in the Weasley house already what they're doing can't be detected. Anyone have ideas on this? From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 20:19:12 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:19:12 -0000 Subject: Character (was: Re: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130322 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > >big snip > > > Because he [Dumbledore giving second chances] believes in the > > possibility of things which are there but > > hidden becoming manifest. But if it was never, ever there to begin > > with, then it cannot become so. > > > > > lealess: > > Is essentialism then a black or white > thing, a born bad or born good, in the blood thing -- a Griffindor or > Slytherin thing -- determined at birth? Leaving second chances aside, > although I think that is a good point (who gets second chances -- only > the ones Dumbledore knows to be good? what about the string of > disastrous DADA teachers?), what is the role of choice here? Are you > saying that character determines choices, and not moral soul- searching > or reflection, or a momentary lapse of awareness? Leaving out a > sociopath like Tom Riddle, who probably doesn't have a choice based on > whatever causes sociopathology, what about someone who makes a wrong > choice and then works to correct it, who reforms (Snape, hopefully). > What about someone who fails to make a right choice once (Lupin not > taking wolfsbane before a full-moon evening) -- were all their choices > predetermined by character? If that is true, then what does > essentialism say about their characters? Neri: Perhaps JKR's apparent essentialist/existentialist contradiction might be resolved depending on the relevant point-of-view (very similar to discussing the book in two different ways, either from within the plot or using "meta-thinking"). When estimating another character as an object you are allowed to be an essentialist, but when considering yourself as a subject you should to be an existentialist. So DD is allowed to estimate that Neville doesn't have Harry's ability to make the right choices, but Neville himself is not allowed to say "I don't have the strength to make the right choice, and therefore it's OK for me to take the easy and wrong choice". DD is allowed to say that Kreacher is to be pitied because he's what wizards made of him, but that doesn't mean that Kreacher is allowed to say "I'm what wizards had made of me, therefore it's OK for me to send Harry Potter to his death". As to JKR herself, since she's writing these characters she's allowed to be even more than an essentialist. She can be a determinist and a fatalist. From her POV she's allowed to say "Tom is a sociopath and utterly evil. He had never known love and never will. And besides I needed an evil overlord for my story and I invented Tom for that role". But that doesn't mean Tom is allowed to say "I'm a sociopath and therefore I have no choice but to kill people". From Tom's POV as a subject, he has a choice if to kill people or not. Neri From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 20:37:10 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:37:10 -0000 Subject: Teaching Styles and Motivation, (WAS: Mental Discipline in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130323 >>Bookworm: >To be more specific, Betsy, Lupin doesn't give clear directions on how to "produce the mental state that allows one to conjure a Patronus." But then, neither does Snape give clear directions on how to "empty the mind."< Betsy Hp: That's *exactly* my point. For that matter, Fake!Moody doesn't give any specific instructions on resisting the Imperius curse either: "...watch his {Harry's] eyes, that's where you see it..." (GoF scholastic hardback p.232) There is never a description of a class where the reader comes away knowing exactly how to do the thing being asked of the student, IIRC. So I think to judge Snape for not saying *how* to clear your mind is a non-starter. How do you come up with a happy memory in the face of such overwhelming depression? What exactly are the students suppposed to see in Harry's eyes? >>Bookworm: >What Lupin does in give *positive encouragement*.< >>Jen: >It's never the content of Snape's speech that's the problem, it's simply how he says it. Your canon quotes from Snape's speech in your original post left out many of the descriptors for how Snape talks to Harry: "said contemptuously"; "said in a dangerous voice"; "spat Snape"; "snarled Snape"; "said Snape coolly"; "said Snape repressively"; "said Snape's cold voice"; "said Snape sharply"; "said Snape savagely".....(OOTP, US, chap. 24, pps. 530- 537)< Betsy Hp: The personal difficulty Harry has with Snape (exasperated by Sirius) *was* a factor. I don't deny that. Heck, even Dumbledore admits as much. And yes, Lupin is the more positive teacher, and he would have been freer with the praise. I doubt, however, that the basic instructions would have changed. And Harry *has* managed to learn under Snape in the past. So, *if Harry had wanted to learn* he would have learned under Snape. Class content wasn't really the problem, IMO. >>Bookworm: >Now, having said all that, there is also a big difference in Harry's motivation in the different lessons. Harry *wanted* to learn the Patronus ? he asked Lupin (a teacher he liked) to teach him how to defend himself. OTOH, Harry was *told* to study with Snape (a teacher his despises) to block thoughts that he really doesn't want to block. Even if their teaching styles were the same and Harry liked both men, Lupin would have seemed to be a more successful teacher than Snape simply because Harry was motivated to learn the Patronus but not Occulumency.< Betsy Hp: Exactly! If Harry had wanted to learn Occlumency, he'd have learned it. Personally, I think even if Lupin had been the teacher instead of Snape, Harry would *still* have failed to block his dreams. He may have felt a bit more guilty about not doing the work, but he would have followed the same path. (And the drama would have gone *way* down.) >>Jen: Another teacher would probably use very similar language to describe the process of Occlumency to Harry, to train him on the skills he needs to learn. Without the sneering, coolness, danger, snarling, and contempt, perhaps Harry will hear what they have to say.< Betsy Hp: I think Snape gave Harry an excuse, actually. Harry didn't want to stop the dreams and Snape provided a good scapegoat for not doing the work. Because I think Harry *did* hear what Snape was telling him, he just chose not to believe him. Betsy Hp From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Wed Jun 8 20:38:18 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:38:18 -0000 Subject: Hog's Head (was: Re: HBP prediction contest) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130324 Dungrollin: > PS Does anyone else wonder if the Hog's Head was shortened from The > Hogwarts Headmaster? More importantly, can anyone pin a theory to > it? Could the pub, perhaps, date from the time of the founders? Eloise: It's just a nice coincidence. A hogshead is an old English measure of capacity. The precise capacity ahs varied a bit over the years and interestingly, it also varied according to what was being measured. http://www.sizes.com/units/hogshead.htm The Hog's Head, or Hogshead isn't an uncommon pub name in RL. And what else would you call a pub in Hogsmeade? (Aside from the Three Broomsticks, that is. ;-) ) Dung again: I knew there were pubs called The Hog's Head (even had a pint in one) though I didn't know it was a measure. Personally, if I had a pub in Hogsmeade I'd call it The Swine and Carbuncles. Or, The Dragon and Doxy. Or, The Three-Headed Dog and Troll. Or, The Pumpkin and Slug Pellet. The Hog's Head has rather a Muggle ring to it, doesn't it? Perhaps it dates from before the Statute of Secrecy and all that. Dunno, just thinking aloud. So to speak. As it were. > Potioncat: > Oh, I do hope this was the last pun of the series to go over my head! And such an obvious one too! > But, given JKR's love of puns....back to Dungrollin's question: If it is HOGwart's HEADmster, it doesn't look good for DD of his faith in Snape... A severed(us) head? and Dung again: I was wondering if it referred to a previous headmaster, perhaps the first headmaster. That was Gryffindor, wasn't it? Was the Hog's Head once upon a time The Gryffindor Arms? Which came first, Hogwarts or Hogsmeade? I can't remember if we're ever told. Dungrollin From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 8 21:35:47 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:35:47 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Pet Snape Theory (Long) References: <1118204535.1849.48499.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000d01c56c72$09d5b840$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 130325 wherr009 wrote: > Very good theory, but I have a couple of questions for people a little bit more in the known than I. Who performed the Fidelis (sp?) charm to hide the potters? Was it James or Lily or > someone else? If it was James or Lily then when they died is it possible that the charm was lifted and everybody could see GH? Just a couple of things I am curious about. Hagrid admits that he didn't know that the Potters were concealed by the Fidelius. As a result, if the spell had still been in force, he couldn't have found the place to rescue Harry. Therefore the spell must have disappeared by that point. The "proof positive that Voldemort had gone" (to satisfy the Ministry and the media) must have been given by an eyewitness who must have been sufficiently close to see it happen but sufficiently distant not to have intervened. Therefore the spell must have disappeared by that point. My bet is that it dissipated when James fought Voldemort (at the threshold, given the magical implications of such places) and died. There would (I suspect) have been some physical damage to the house at that point, also. hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 21:44:33 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:44:33 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130326 >>Betsy Hp: >Because Harry *never* has a strong enough happy thought. Not in PoA, anyway. Even the thought of going to live with Sirius produces a mere mist. Nothing is pulled from Harry. Even with the incantation he was very nearly food for the dementors. It was only the paradox of time travel that caused the Patronus to form...< >>Nora: >This is rather contradictory; let's play a logic game. Harry must have a very happy memory in mind to summon a Patronus. Harry summons a Patronus. Ergo, Harry must have called forth a very happy memory--or at least a state of such. Of course for plot and personal reasons he can't do it until the very end, but I really don't see what your point is here.< Betsy Hp: The logic is destroyed, IMO, by the paradox. A happy memory is never described. And Harry doesn't say, I did it because I finally figured out a strong happy memory, he says he did it because he knew he'd already done it. Of course it's contradictory -- it's Time Travel (tm), creator of contradiction headaches and unsolvable paradoxes the world over . But it's the paradox that allows Harry to finally produce a Patronus. My point is that producing the happy memory must not be that easy if it took a paradox to get Harry to do it. And Lupin never gets into any kind of mental exercises, etc., to teach Harry how to pull forth a happy memory. Actually what he does is hit the kid, over and over and over. >>Nora: >"Clear your mind", vague as it is, is not an exercise but rather (so we are told) the goal that Snape is trying to get Harry to.< Betsy Hp: No, the goal is for Harry to be able to block someone from entering his mind. Occlumency. Clearing his mind is a nightly exercise that is supposed to help Harry have greater control over his emotions. >>Nora: >I don't buy your exceptionalism argument. >We are all human, wizards and Muggles, and therefore these basic fundamental ideas about mind/body relationships and such should apply. A stiff muscle is always weaker than a relaxed one; a tense and nervous mind is always less functionally alert than a relaxed and aware on.< Betsy Hp: Well, yeah. But you're not going to convince me that you can walk through a brick wall just by "believing" that it's not there, or that you can regrow your hair overnight after a bad haircut. And no matter how stiff or relaxed your muscles, I don't think you'd bounce after being dropped out a window by your great-uncle. The magic is, in and of itself, the exceptional aspect of the story, and should be treated as such. (I think there's a great deal of symbolism to the magic -- but it's not something we can recreate in the real world, no matter how detailed the Hogwarts lesson we peek in on.) >>Nora: >Now, if you want to toss out these ideas about subtle psychological functioning, then you should also toss out all your Muggle ideas about the psychology of the characters in other areas. No more arguments about Draco and his daddy, or how Draco really just wants to be friends with Harry, since that's obviously Muggle thinking.< Betsy Hp: I can argue this two ways. 1) Draco Malfoy and Lucius Malfoy don't actually exist and so therefore do not have a relationship, good or bad. (boring) 2) Relationships within the WW are equivalent to the Muggle world and therefore can be judged in a similar fashion. I can bring the same ideas to bare upon the family life of the Dursleys or the Grangers as I can on the Malfoys or the Weasleys. I cannot, however, expect to have the same detailed understanding of how Arthur's flying car works as I can on how Vernon's quite Muggle car works. One works according to physical laws I'm fully aware of (or can become aware of) and one works according to laws to which I've only been briefly and marginally exposed. So, as far as magical lessons are concerned, we can argue teacher methodology as far as attitude, etc. are concerned, but we have a harder time arguing lesson content. e.g. We can say that Snape treated Neville badly in his first ever potion lesson, but we can't say Snape was wrong about adding nettles. The first is universal, the second is particular to the WW. >>Nora: >I don't see any reason to assume that wizards are so unlike us; JKR is certainly not writing the kind of mystical and numinous fantasy world where this might really apply. Now, if JKR were playing in the kinds of things that A. S. Byatt complained that she doesn't, I'd be happier to play with that argument. But in many ways the HP series is very mundane fantasy (that's a thread in and of itself), and the whole point of the thing on one level is a kind of meta-critique of current 'Muggle' society. Hence why I don't want to be so choosily exceptional without overt reasons, and I don't think those have been demonstrated.< Betsy Hp: Then show me. Show me examples of detailed instructions in magical lessons that would back up the idea that Snape didn't give Harry full instruction in Occlumency. I've given several examples where mental discipline needs to be exercised in order to complete a magical task and very little detail was given. Give me an example where a Hogwarts professor sets out the kind of mental exercises you feel are necessary for a successful Occlumency class. Because, yes, the WW is very like our own. But not when it comes to magic. We can make cars go. We cannot make them fly. There's an exception. We can stand over a broom and say "Up!" with a great deal of authority, but the broom will not leap into our hands. There's an exception. We can try desperately to will ourselves out of a clinical depression with one happy thought, but I think most mental health professionals will say that probably won't work. There's an exception. And no, I don't think any of those exceptions start us down a slippery slope that ends in a complete unraveling of character dynamics. Because the magic really isn't the main thing. At least not for me. It's the character interactions that I find so fascinating. It's not the lack of magical training that did Harry in, it was the lack of trust he had for Snape, and the secrets Dumbledore kept from him, and the clever manipulations of Voldemort. There are plenty of arguments to be made on those levels. But the argument "that's not how you teach Occlumency" just doesn't hold water as far as I've seen. Betsy Hp, who googled A.S. Byatt and isn't quite sure how she applies From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 23:33:55 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 23:33:55 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130327 >> Betsy Hp: The magic is, in and of itself, the exceptional aspect of the story, and should be treated as such. (I think there's a great deal of symbolism to the magic -- but it's not something we can recreate in the real world, no matter how detailed the Hogwarts lesson we peek in on.) Alla: I am sure Nora will produce much more eloquent reply, I will just make a brief comment - you said it yourself - there IS a great deal of symbolism to Magic and I do treat Occlumency as a symbolic type, not "rechnical one" so to speak since it is even said that occlumency is an "obscure branch of magic". I think JKR called it magic simply to make it sound more fun, frankly. :-) >> Betsy Hp: So, as far as magical lessons are concerned, we can argue teacher methodology as far as attitude, etc. are concerned, but we have a harder time arguing lesson content. e.g. We can say that Snape treated Neville badly in his first ever potion lesson, but we can't say Snape was wrong about adding nettles. The first is universal, the second is particular to the WW. Alla: Oh, I am glad we at least agree that methodology and attitude ARE universal and Rowling is not writing about aliens race. :-) I do think that Magical world IS a muggle world in disguise in very many things and magic added simply to make it more fun, but people in WW world do not become that different from us simply because they are more physically resilient and know how to do magic. Betsy Hp: Then show me. Show me examples of detailed instructions in magical lessons that would back up the idea that Snape didn't give Harry full instruction in Occlumency. I've given several examples where mental discipline needs to be exercised in order to complete a magical task and very little detail was given. Give me an example where a Hogwarts professor sets out the kind of mental exercises you >feel are necessary for a successful Occlumency class. Alla: My argument is that we have NOT seen any kind of lessons which could be analogised to Occlumency yet. As to examples you gave earlier - let's take going through barrier for example. Sure you need to concentrate, BUT no matter how good you are you CAN be prevented from going through the barrier, as Dobby showed us in CoS. It seems to me that if you learned the Occlumency , you know it, although you can probably be outdone by good Legilimenc. Anyways, as I said I don't buy that one as direct analogy Betsy: Because, yes, the WW is very like our own. But not when it comes to magic. We can make cars go. We cannot make them fly. There's an exception. We can stand over a broom and say "Up!" with a great deal of authority, but the broom will not leap into our hands. There's an exception. We can try desperately to will ourselves out of a clinical depression with one happy thought, but I think most mental health professionals will say that probably won't work. There's an exception. Alla: The cars in our world do NOT fly, period, same with flying on the brooms, I think :-), BUT as Nora showed in her previous posts, there are mental relaxation techniques in muggle world which COULD be looked at as similar to Occlumency. As you said though, hopefully our theories will be proved or disproved in HBP , if Harry will indeed learn Occlumency woith Dumbledore. Then hopefully we will see how good or not Snape was in doing the teaching. :-) Just me of course, Alla. From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 23:36:08 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 23:36:08 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130328 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy Hp: > Well, yeah. But you're not going to convince me that you can walk > through a brick wall just by "believing" that it's not there, or > that you can regrow your hair overnight after a bad haircut. And > no matter how stiff or relaxed your muscles, I don't think you'd > bounce after being dropped out a window by your great-uncle. Ah, the laws of physics are twisted indeed via magic. But Neville does indeed do better once he gets some confidence and relaxes--which is the psychological level I was thinking of. > Betsy Hp: > Then show me. Show me examples of detailed instructions in magical > lessons that would back up the idea that Snape didn't give Harry > full instruction in Occlumency. I've given several examples where > mental discipline needs to be exercised in order to complete a > magical task and very little detail was given. Give me an example > where a Hogwarts professor sets out the kind of mental exercises > you feel are necessary for a successful Occlumency class. There isn't, in part because from my perspective, Occlumency is exceptional. It boils down yet again to our state vs. action distinction. We've never seen *anything else* where the object is not so much to do Thing X, a clearly defined action, as to be in a state where one's mind cannot be penetrated. It's because of that distinction that I simply cannot agree with the casual roping together of all these mental disciplines into one boat. The closest thing is the Imperius resistance, where we get a certain internal description (and Harry has something of a knack for it). I've provided a reading/explanation of those scenes before based on the best analogous situations I can think of. Magic in JKR's world has funky rules, but the way that Occlumency is presented is pointedly *not* as the kind of "wave your wand and do this" magic that almost everything else is (and we must follow the story to get), but as something almost mundane. And since intention does play a role in other spells (Crucio, for one), I think it's a valid topic to get into some RL comparisons and discussions of how the mind actualizes intentions and learns to control things that are generally involuntary. You can do a lot of things with mind and body together that strike people as magical. :) Yes, I know it's not the same--but I'm not convinced that these functional principles that work for all humans wouldn't also apply to the exercise of a mental state, which is what Occlumency seems to be. If you want to keep ignoring the profound differences, then go right ahead. New canon may settle our arguments. It's still picking and choosing what parts of human psychology you want to apply. > There are plenty of arguments to be made on those levels. But the > argument "that's not how you teach Occlumency" just doesn't hold > water as far as I've seen. My argument was always only that I think I understand why Harry had so many problems, as a combination of these other factors and the teaching method. > Betsy Hp, who googled A.S. Byatt and isn't quite sure how she applies Google a little harder. She wrote a rather snide essay about the whole phenomenon, and what she really doesn't like is the lack of the numinous in HP. The magic is 'ersatz', for her. -Nora goes to recover from an hour of working out mind and body From ShylahM at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 00:37:55 2005 From: ShylahM at gmail.com (Shylah) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:37:55 +1200 Subject: My Predictions - Contest Message-ID: <403e946f0506081737710022f6@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130329 Prediction Contest Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Cornelius Fudge. Reason being, he is not going to go quietly after fighting to preserve his status for so long, and it would create a sudden vacuum that LV might find useful. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) The HBP, well, I think it will be someone we already know well rather than a new character, and it was said that the revelation would be a surprise, so after a think, my guess is. Sirius Black. Nothing has been said if the HBP character is dead or alive that I can recall. I can also imagine Bellatrix's reaction (for one) to find out a hitch with her line. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I think she was in league with Dumbledore prior to Godric's Hollow, with the advanced level of charm work required. However, I don't believe that she knew fully the outcome, or else, why hide in the first place. Some of her sacrifice had to contain a level of hope and faith that she was doing the right thing. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Probably that new character McClarren (spelling) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Considering that I expect anyone who dates Harry will be a major target, potential toast. I would like him to continue as is for the meantime, and stick with friendships. Dating no one seriously. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Ideally, Amelia Bones. But I fear that things will get worse before they get better. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. However, like the difference in computers, as in between a desktop and a notebook. It is not Dumbledore's one, which appears to be smaller and lighter. I think it is one that is very old, and seems to be made for the stand it is on, rather than easily moved. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. Snape doesn't do himself any favours in that respect by teaching at such an advanced level, as noted by Umbridge. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? I think that he received a mark just high enough after the exam seemed to go well for him. However, it would hinge on the fact that whether potions at NEWT level was an optional subject or not, once the grade was reached. If it is compulsory, I'd have to say yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All but Astronomy. But I think that his DADA would have received the highest mark Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Hogsmeade visits will be cancelled, or at the very least, severely curtailed at some point in the book. 2. Neville, knowing that Bellatrix was the only one to escape from the MOM will have had all summer to focus on that, and will show up, changed somewhat. More in line with a noticeable continuation of his DA club improvements, but this time, the school population in general will get to see it. 3. The Dursley's learn of Mrs Figg's real status and are forced, for their own safely, to endure more contact with Wizards adding protections and securing the home more, but they are still un-noticed by the neighbours. 4. Ron is a target as he is so close to Harry. But, judging from past information. Temptations rather than threats are attempted first. Voldemort would be very smug if he could prove that even Harry's closest friends could be turned. Thinking back to the speech as TM in the Chamber of Secrets. 5. Draco suffers a major case of upset over his father's actions. Possibly due to question 2 answer. This time, he cannot blame anyone. His response to this will determine which side he will end up on. With him idolising his father so much, it will not go well for him. From brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org Wed Jun 8 20:46:50 2005 From: brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org (Wilson, Bruce) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:46:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Underage Wizardry Message-ID: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C567E@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> No: HPFGUIDX 130330 Lyra: I guess someone needs to convince Dumbledore that "domestic magic" would be a useful subject. (He might realize it's a lot less dodgy than divination.) [Wilson, Bruce] The Wizardling equivalent of Home Economics? This would be especially useful for Muggleborns (or Mugglereared) like Hermione and Harry. Children raised in a wizard household could learn those sorts of spells from their parents. Even requiring the professors to have a unit on 'practical household applications' as a part of each class would be useful. However, remember---absense of presence is not the same thing as presence of absence. Just because we aren't shown something in the Wizardling World doesn't mean that it isn't there. Like Narnia, Middle Earth, and Wonderland, the WW--or even Velgarth and the Seven Kingdoms---has an existance outside of the author's published works. BAW From brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org Wed Jun 8 20:50:22 2005 From: brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org (Wilson, Bruce) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:50:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Underage Wizardry - the twins Message-ID: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C567F@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> No: HPFGUIDX 130331 Marissa: Does creating potions or their inventions not count as magic? And even if it can't be detected, wouldn't they still have to use their wands to create ton-tongue toffees and canary creams? Maybe because there is so much magic in the Weasley house already what they're doing can't be detected. Anyone have ideas on this? [Wilson, Bruce] I always assumed that the underage magic rules were for kids like Hermione and Harry who lived in Muggle households; kids growing up in wizardling households would be presumed to be doing magic under their parents' supervision. (Sort of like farm kids driving cars and trucks on the farm even if they were not old enough to be licensed to take them on the public roads.)--BAW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 21:33:26 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:33:26 -0000 Subject: Underage Wizardry - the twins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130332 Marissa wrote: > Does creating potions or their inventions not count as magic? And > even if it can't be detected, wouldn't they still have to use their > wands to create ton-tongue toffees and canary creams? Maybe because > there is so much magic in the Weasley house already what they're > doing can't be detected. Anyone have ideas on this? When I read this, I remembered in PS/SS when HRH go to their first class with Snape, in the chapter 'Potions Master' he says something like this "there won't be any silly wand movement here...some of won't even consider what we do magic..." This makes me think that Potions *is* magic of course, but not detectable magic, I mean it doesn't take any special wizarding skill to mix and stir certain ingredients, I believe even a Squib could do some potions (don't tell Snape I said that ;) ) Just like when the twins and Ron went over to Privet Drive in the Ford Anglia, it was a magic transport, but they weren't *doing* any magic per se. Or Floo Powder or Port Keys , it's magic alright, but not detectable. Juli From lealess at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 21:57:55 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:57:55 -0000 Subject: Character (was: Re: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130333 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: >Neri: > Perhaps JKR's apparent essentialist/existentialist contradiction > might be resolved depending on the relevant point-of-view (very > similar to discussing the book in two different ways, either from > within the plot or using "meta-thinking"). When estimating another > character as an object you are allowed to be an essentialist, but > when considering yourself as a subject you should to be an > existentialist. So DD is allowed to estimate that Neville doesn't > have Harry's ability to make the right choices, but Neville > himself is not allowed to say "I don't have the strength to make > the right choice, and therefore it's OK for me to take the easy > and wrong choice". DD is allowed to say that Kreacher is to be > pitied because he's what wizards made of him, but that doesn't > mean that Kreacher is allowed to say "I'm what wizards had made of > me, therefore it's OK for me to send Harry Potter to his death". > > As to JKR herself, since she's writing these characters she's > allowed to be even more than an essentialist. lealess: I think I see what you are saying, but I am still confused. Taking Dumbledore as an example of point of view, if he sees Kreacher as the creature the wizards made, do you think Dmbledore still excuses him completely for the choice Kreacher made? Dumbledore also hoped Snape would overcome his hatred, and I would speculate hoped that Lupin would control his lycanthropy. Why would he have set either on their paths if he had an inkling of what the outcome was sure to be? Dumbledore seems the sort to see good in anyone, even Tom Riddle, who he addresses as a person and not a monster of destiny. I am not sure he sees others in terms of absolute character, but rather as complex individuals with some inate character traits or patterns of behavior, capable of making choices independent of those traits or patterns. Dumbledore also makes mistakes in his estimation of the choices people will make, as noted above and up to keeping Harry in the dark in OotP. (If he is seeing everyone in absolute terms, then he is not doing a very good job of it. In terms of consequences for choices, he does seem fatalistic, I'll grant.) Further, you are saying that characters cannot fall back on an essentialistic excuse for their own behavior. Fair enough, but will it even matter, in an essentialist world, if they question their motives from their POV? They are bound to follow their natures, and will end up following a certain path regardless, it seems, so wrapping their brain cells around choice is an exercise in futility. Following up my own questions about Snape and Lupin, two mysterious characters, does it follow that Lupin will always let someone down in a stressful situation, and Snape will always make extreme choices, and both are ever doomed to do so, based on character, regardless of whether they indulge in a moment of reflection beforehand? I can see that an author is allowed to write characters in a deterministic/fatalistic way, of course, especially when the whole story is plotted out in advance. I also appreciate that readers can/have made their own essentialist determinations, as any discussion of Snape or Lupin will show. I am not convinced that we as readers, interacting with the text, should necessarily do that. But that is our choice ... or is it? lealess (muddying the waters even more) From Cyrna at europe.de Wed Jun 8 22:16:27 2005 From: Cyrna at europe.de (Danny) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:16:27 +0200 Subject: AW: [HPforGrownups] Re: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c56c77$b8799150$0b01a8c0@dannypc> No: HPFGUIDX 130334 Gerry: > I like your point about the hero not being able to get back from > where he started. This is very true, but I don't think it will be > as bleak for Harry. [...snipped Ender parts...] Harry is growing > up, is very much aware of the threat he is in, and actively wants > to stop this evil. One of the strenghts of Harry is that he has > friends. He is also not easy to manipulate. Politicians who want > to use him, will have a very difficult time, because the way Harry > is developing, a mature Harry will not let himself be used. As for > fame: it is fickle, and people will forget. [...] I agree with the coming back thing of the hero ... I also agree that Harry will not be easy to use for any politician. But I don't think that people in the WW will easily forgot the feat of stopping Voldemort. Dumbledore himself is (maybe not the hero he once was, defeating Grindelwald but) a revered and feared member of the WW. He is a member of the wizengamot, has several honours and has his portrait on chocolate frog cards. With a feat so big and a long living communita like the WW is I think they will not forget this easily. And so Harry will maybe not be manipulated by politicians but he will get very annoyed by their persitance to try again and again (p like the current MoM at least). I agree that with his friend s it will be a lot easier for him, whatever happens. >One of Frodo's problems is that from the beginning he was very much >aware of the burden being his, and his alone. The others helped, but >could not really share the burden. What kept Frode going was his >vision of the Shire. But: he went away and found out that he had >changed when he came back, and so had the Shire. You cannot go back >to the past. Harry is not going away, nor is he coming back. Harry >is growing up in the world where the fight is. He has no ideal world >where he wants to come back to, to find he has outgrown it (like a >lot of soldiers have). Harry's fight is in the world, and as the >world changes, so does he. But Harry also says time and time again that it's his burden alone (or am I imagining things from FF?) He wishes somebody else would've been the child-who-lived ... His friends can help in a more emotional way than Frodos could though. >In Harry's case, there is much more sharing, and much more common >ground. Harry is not the only one to have suffered by the hands of >LV, he is not the only one on the death list. He only now knows >that he is instrumental in defeating LV, before that though he >was 'the boy who lived' he knew this was not because of anything he >himself did, so he did not perceive himself differently from >others. Plus that in most fights he has had, he never was alone. So >I think his emotional support network will give him opportunities >to cope Frode and Ender never had. I agree with all except the perceiving thing ... [...] you've still been here haven't you? You've still been together! Me I've been stuck at the Dursleys' for a month! And I've handeled more than you two've ever managed and Dumbledore knows it - Who saved the Philosopher's Stone? Who got rid of Riddle? Who saved both your skins from the Dementors? [...] (OotP Bloombnury Ed p63) I agree that he is in a very emetional state at this moment. But the point is, he knows he is different from others not by his own fault or choice but by 'fate'. (at this moment) >I can imagine him living somewhere more or less isolated, but I can >easier imagine him to become a professional quidditch player an >have a couple of years of pure fun before he figures out what he >wants to do with the rest of his life. Though I cannot imagine him >becoming Minister of Magic, that sounds far too boring for someone >like him. He either lives somewhere isolated or becomes a professional quidditch player (I agree) before he returns to Hogwarts to teach DaDA or History of Magic (if they can get rid of the ghost, whats its name?) Not because he likes bragging about himself (we know he likes to be relativly unnoticed) but because in this way he can tell children what happened and tell them why you don't want to become a Dark Lord, how easy it is to get from well meaning (I'm exaggerating here) to being a tyrant. Danny (who wishes upon having an word version of all the books to find evidence faster ...) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alishak at spu.edu Wed Jun 8 23:26:13 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 23:26:13 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130335 > Juli now: Sure killing Harry would be a HUGE shock for all of us, > specially since the books are called "Harry Potter", I mean when > does the main character dies? only in lame movies, in good movies > the star gets to live, even if he/she's all alone in the world. > And I believe this whole series are "good". I would hate it if > Harry was to die in HBP, then the seventh book couldn't even be > called HP and xxx, it'd have to be another title (Ron Weasley & > Hermione Granger and the xxx). So my bet is Harry will live, but > his best friends may not. Alisha: I have to disagree with you here, Juli. The most popular movies are the ones where the star lives, but I don't think the best ones are. People like to be told that good always wins unequivically, but people need to be told that sometimes good people die and we can only hope that they take down some evil along the way. That's what makes the difference between fiction and literature. One tells people what they want to hear and the other tells people what they need to hear. This is why As You Like It (however much I may love it), is taught as a satire in university level Shakespeare classes. Shakespeare's audiences wanted a comedy (though he much preferred tragedies), so he simply threw up his hands and said, "As you like it." Alisha-who sees Harry Potter as more of a Horatio Hornblower than a David Copperfield. From srbecca at hotmail.com Thu Jun 9 00:07:25 2005 From: srbecca at hotmail.com (Rebecca Dreiling) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:07:25 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The late Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130336 Steve wrote: > "I have speculated that it's possible for Harry's story to have a > bittersweet ending. That yes Harry lives, but not without deep > abiding scars. Not without a terrible price paid to the hero's > soul." Maybe Harry's ending will be similiar to that of Lyra in the His Dark Materials series. She loses her ability to read the alethiometer with the ease she once did. Then she choses to devote her life to the study of how to read it without the special gifts she was given before she went on her journeys. Perhaps Harry's powers will be limited, stripped down. He might have to learn again what had once been natural to him once the conflict with LV ends. Maybe he'll no longer be a wizard with natural talent. More like Neville perhaps. Rebecca From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 01:48:43 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 01:48:43 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130337 Alla wrote earlier: I'd like to say that we don't know yet whether Sirius knew exactly what he was doing that night and what exactly Sirius was doing. Doesn't it strike you as strange that Sirius after spending twelve years in Azkaban reacts so violently at the first mention of Snape's name. Granted, you can argue that Sirius is a vicious murderer, who always wanted to kill Snape, but isn't it possible that this reaction shows hatred which relies on something much more in depth than the fact that Snape was spying on them? For twelve years Dementors were eating up Sirius' happy thoughts. If his reactions about Snape were left intact, isn't it possible that something VERY unhappy connects those two? Finwitch: Excellent point, Alla - and indeed, there IS a mutual, strong hatred between them - particularly obvious in GoF. Something that's in the very core of them -- and I suppose that something is also part of 'he exists' that James told Lily. Alla: Oh, yes. I should have added " because he exists: to my question marks about Snape anmd Marauders in general and Prank in particular. I mean sure one can read such remark as simple arrogance of the bully towards his victim, but it is not just " because he exists" it is also " if you know what I mean" ( paraphrase). I do think that something is here which also points out to deeper connection, IMO. Finwitch: My favourite theory about that 'prank', considering that question of werewolves which Snape issued for a homework, Snape's apparent study of that question/listening the conversation which more or less clearly stated that Lupin was a werewolf-- is that Snape DID know. What he went there for, was to commit *suicide by a werewolf*. Why? To get at Sirius, of course! Trying to make Sirius appear guilty of murder - which Snape is STILL doing with that claim... Alla: I can EASILY buy the speculation that Snape figured out who Remus was exactly because of that question. Of course it could be just a simple coincidence that he assigns EXACTLY the same question to Harry's class hoping that someone would out Remus ... again. :-) Was that Pippin who said something to the effect that if the gun is planted it will go off eventually? Hmmm, maybe it was not a coincidence. What I am not sure I am buying is the fact that Snape would exact his revenge over Marauders that way. I mean, if he commits suicide, he does lose a lot, right? I guess he can come back as a ghost, but would he really want this kind of sad existence? I mean if he really hated marauders so much that he would not mind dying in order to stick it to them, I don't know... I think it is very sad. Now, we ARE speculating here, but if we assume that Snape indeed figured out who Remus was , but did not want to commit suiside, could you come up with another idea of why he decided to go to the Shack? Another related question. I went to Lexicon today and realised that I have not looked at their timelines for a long time. Lexicon places Prank in the sixth year. Is it because of "Sirius Black showed that he was capable of murder at the age of 16" or other obvious quote which I can't remember now? What if Sirius turned sixteen in their fifth year? I sort of share the speculation that Prank may have occurred right after pensieve scene, but if it indeed happens in their sixth year, Severus would have even more time to do a little research on Remus. :-) Finwitch: At the very least, I believe that Sirius reckons Snape went there to kill himself, become a ghost and therefore, frame him for murder. After spending 12 years with dementors for a similar act, forced to dwell in whatever it is he hates Snape so much for - saying 'serves him right' fits in. In that situation, I think I'd be saying the same. Alla: I LOVED Potioncat's analogy of the Prank with jigsaw puzzle. I firmly believe that we are missing some crucial pieces of that puzzle. I definitely think that this sentence may not be finished and as I asked earlier I REALLY want to know what this may mean. "Black made a derisive noise. "It served him right," he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to... hoping he could get us expelled...." - PoA, paperback, p.356. Just my opinion, Alla. From fredalss at ca.inter.net Thu Jun 9 02:24:55 2005 From: fredalss at ca.inter.net (freda18ca) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 02:24:55 -0000 Subject: GOF - Riddle question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130338 I am re-reading GOF and this time around noticed something that I can't explain. The 3 Riddles are found dead - parents and a grown son, Tom. A teen-aged boy -pale with dark hair was seen by Frank Bryce, the gardener. What I want to know is -if Tom was killed, where did Voldemort come from? Is the teenager Tom? Explanations would be appreciated. Freda From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 02:27:31 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 02:27:31 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130339 Alisha wrote: > > I have to disagree with you here, Juli. The most popular movies are > the ones where the star lives, but I don't think the best ones are. > People like to be told that good always wins unequivically, but people need to be told that sometimes good people die and we can only hope that they take down some evil along the way. You're probably right Alisha, people want to feel good about the book or movie they're reading or watching, at least I do, I think the world is complicated enough as it is so why add more stress to it? The best books I've read usually end in a sort of happy ending, it doesn't have to be "happily ever after", just "it?s ok, not pefect, just ok". This is a weak reason, but it's a children's book, and they are supposed to be happy, they should teach something, it would be discouraging for kids (and adults) if the bad guys win. I'd be completly disappointed in JKR if at the end Voldemort takes over Europe and the rest of the world. Probably Harry's friends will die, his family is already death, but I believe he will find that even if life kinda sucks it will get better, he'll se the light on the other side. Juli From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 9 01:48:11 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:48:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A79FDB.6010101@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130340 >>Juli now: Sure killing Harry would be a HUGE shock for all of us, >>specially since the books are called "Harry Potter", I mean when >>does the main character dies? only in lame movies, in good movies >>the star gets to live, even if he/she's all alone in the world. >>And I believe this whole series are "good". >Alisha: > >I have to disagree with you here, Juli. The most popular movies are >the ones where the star lives, but I don't think the best ones are. >People like to be told that good always wins unequivically, but people need to be told that sometimes good people die and we can only hope that they take down some evil along the way. That's what makes the difference between fiction and literature. One tells people what they want to hear and the other tells people what they need to hear. heather now: I agree with Alisha. Not just in movies, but in any type of story. The hero surviving gives a 'happy ending' but sometimes only on a superficial level... there are different kinds of 'happy endings'. In regards to the idea of the 'message' Harry dying would give to kids reading the series: jellocat said: To me, these stories of Harry are born of hope and what good would the death of its protagonist do to keep that hope alive in children who look to Harry as someone they can emulate. heather now: We should remember the very beginning of Harry's story -- his mother's sacrifice. This has been described many times in the novels as the greatest showing of love possible, to give your own life for those you love. This could only been done as an act of 'hope' -- hope that Harry would survive and thrive, even without her; she knew -- or felt -- that his continued existence was more important than hers. That is not self-deprecation, that is noble recognition of your role in the state of things... Anyway. So what would happen if Harry died? It would depend on how he died. If, as I expect it would happen (if it indeed happens at all), it is a case of he-must-sacrifice-himself-in-order-to-save-the-world, then the message of hope and emulating a worthy role model still stands. The message is not, then, 'do good and you will have a long happy life'. It is more complex than that... 'do good and you will have done good - even though you may not be around to see it, the world will live a longer and happier life'. Self-sacrifice is a very honourable notion, and something sorely lacking in today's world for the most part. Most folks don't want to live without their fancy fuel-guzzling SUV's, for instance, deliberately oblivious to the harm that might be done to the earth for others now and in the future. We all want stuff for ourselves to make our lives easier, more luxurious, and we want our stuff cheaper -- if that means that it's made on the backs of the poor (in China, for example) or by destroying the last remaining forests or just in contempt of those who have less, well then so be it. *I* am more important than *they*, since this is *my* life. Self-sacrifice recognizes that there is a greater good than your own life. This does not limit the importance and the value of your life and your happiness -- but it does put an important contextualization on it. There are already enough meta-messages out there saying "you are your own god, do what you want for yourself" -- there could stand to be a few more saying "you are part of something larger, please be considerate of others"! Given the importance placed on Lily's sacrifice at the beginning, I would not be at all surprised if Harry had to do something similar at the end of the tale. I heard a rumour -- cannot remember where, and have NO idea how grounded in fact it is -- that the second-last chapter of the last book will be called "The Man Who Died". Of course that could refer to anyone, though the parallel to the first chapter would obviously be intended to make us THINK one way... If it DID go that way, it would indeed be a beautiful parallelism, both with the growth of the character and with his mother's sacrifice at that first time. The other characters would of course be grief-stricken. But, they would recognize the nobility of his sacrifice and forever be grateful for it. There would probably be a 'Harry Potter Day', just as McGonagall predicted back in that first chapter. Anyway. I don't know if this will happen, of course. I'm really just saying two things: 1) Self-sacrifice For the Greater Good is as great a message as 'live happily ever after' 2) Such a self-sacrifice would make a beautiful parallel to Lily's, closing the circle, as it were, and be highly effective as a literary device. heather the buzzard From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 9 01:28:35 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:28:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Underage Wizardry - the twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A79B43.5040101@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130341 jlnbtr wrote: >>Does creating potions or their inventions not count as magic? And >>even if it can't be detected, wouldn't they still have to use their >>wands to create ton-tongue toffees and canary creams? >> Marissa wrote: >When I read this, I remembered in PS/SS when HRH go to their first >class with Snape, in the chapter 'Potions Master' he says something >like this "there won't be any silly wand movement here...some of >won't even consider what we do magic..." This makes me think that >Potions *is* magic of course, but not detectable magic, I mean it >doesn't take any special wizarding skill to mix and stir certain >ingredients, I believe even a Squib could do some potions (don't >tell Snape I said that ;) ) Just like when the twins and Ron went >over to Privet Drive in the Ford Anglia, it was a magic transport, >but they weren't *doing* any magic per se. Or Floo Powder or Port >Keys , it's magic alright, but not detectable. heather now: Exactly my thinking on that issue. "Doing magic" is not the same as "Using magical items"... otherwise it would be totally IMPOSSIBLE for any wizard-born child to avoid all magical items while at home. [Wilson, Bruce] said: I always assumed that the underage magic rules were for kids like Hermione and Harry who lived in Muggle households; kids growing up in wizardling households would be presumed to be doing magic under their parents' supervision. (Sort of like farm kids driving cars and trucks on the farm even if they were not old enough to be licensed to take them on the public roads.)--BAW heather now: If that were the case, then Molly's statement of "Just because you're allowed to do magic now..." wouldn't apply. As to how this applies to the kids at home -- younger kids I mean. I believe that before a child is 11, before they're old enough to go to Hogwarts, they do magic -- but only of the 'accidental' sort, the uncontrolled and vague sort of 'wandless' magic that seems to exist in the universe. We know that magical children do engage in magical activities while playing -- the little kid poking the slug with his father's wand, for instance, as well as any incident where the child 'did something' when they were emotional (the vanishing glass). I don't think there's any way that this sort of doing magic could be *stopped*. Youngsters would just not have the mental discipline to not do it. Besides which, how then would folks know which kids were magical and which were squibs or ordinary muggles? So, I believe that kids below age 11 do magic, but they are not taught any magical refinements -- because they're not capable of the focus and discipline yet. Sure it would be helpful if they could help with the wash by magic rather than by hand, but their magical control is not yet strong enough and they'd probably ruin everything even if they were taught. I also think that magical ability itself is something that takes time to grow and develop. A toddler will show magical ability, but will not have sufficient... I dunno... magical 'aura' about them to be able to do anything concrete with it, even if they did have the mental ability to understand it. If you think of magic as a sort of 'field' permeating a person, then youngsters perhaps have weak fields, inconsistent fields, blotchy fields... one day strong, the next barely there... stronger in certain areas than others... Over time, it strengthens and evens out, until it reaches a point where it becomes controllable. 11 seems to be the age in the WW where it is deemed that children both 1)have the mental discipline and maturity required to start to learn to control their magical abilities and 2)their magical 'strength' is mature enough. So they're sent off to Hogwarts to learn how to harness their energies. Before they're 17, though, their 'magic fields' are still unpredictable, though to a lesser extent than when they were little children. Combine that with 'social' immaturity, relatively speaking, and it makes sense that they are only allowed to *practice* their skills in the closely guarded halls of Hogwarts. I also want to make the distinction of *practice* in the sense of "work on in order to get better" rather than of "engage in an activity". I think that at Hogwarts, all the classes, all the magic work, are *practice* magic. Students aren't expected to really use their spells *on their own*, not until they've passed OWL's and gained some maturity. So at 11, they're mature enough to begin to study their craft, well-supervised, and at 17 they're mature enough to actually *do* their craft. This applies equally to wizard-borns as well as muggles and has nothing to do with that, IMO. Folks like Harry & co. are totally exceptional situations, of course. Heh. heather the buzzard From flor2128 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 02:41:27 2005 From: flor2128 at yahoo.com (lj pierce) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GOF - Riddle question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050609024127.4922.qmail@web52502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130342 Freda wrote: > The 3 Riddles are found dead - parents and a grown son, Tom. A > teen-aged boy -pale with dark hair was seen by Frank Bryce, the > gardener. What I want to know is -if Tom was killed, where did > Voldemort come from? Is the teenager Tom? I think that the Tom who died was actually Voldemort's father and the other two his grandparents. If I remember correctly he hated his father because when he found out that voldemort's mother was a witch he left them. "flor2128" From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 9 02:56:01 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:56:01 -0400 Subject: GOF - Riddle question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A7AFC1.9020403@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130343 freda18ca wrote: > The 3 Riddles are found dead - parents and a grown son, Tom. A > teen-aged boy -pale with dark hair was seen by Frank Bryce, the > gardener. What I want to know is -if Tom was killed, where did > Voldemort come from? Is the teenager Tom? That threw me off at first too -- but just remember that Tom was named after his father. The three dead were Tom's dad (Tom Sr.), and Tom's grandparents. The teenager was indeed Tom Jr. Tom Sr. is the fellow from which Voldey grave-robs a 'bone of the father' at the end of GOF. heather the buzzard From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 9 03:01:11 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 23:01:11 -0400 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A7B0F7.3010805@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130344 >> Alisha wrote: >> The most popular movies are the ones where the star lives, but >> I don't think the best ones are. >Juli: >This is a weak reason, but it's a children's book, and they are >supposed to be happy, they should teach something, it would be >discouraging for kids (and adults) if the bad guys win. I'd be >completely disappointed in JKR if at the end Voldemort takes >over Europe and the rest of the world. Oh, but who said that Harry dying would mean that Voldemort wins? Harry's death might be necessary in order to 'bring down Voldemort with him', or something like that. That to defeat Voldemort he has to sacrifice himself. And successfully -- the world is free of Voldemort for good, and praise the memory of the noble Harry, who valued the safety of the world and its future over his own life; which I think is a noble and 'good' message. I just made a loooong post about that, so I won't repeat myself. Just wanted to make that point -- Harry dying does not necessarily equal Voldemort winning. That *would* suck for an ending, I agree lol... heather the buzzard From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 03:21:26 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 23:21:26 -0400 Subject: GOF - Riddle question In-Reply-To: <20050609024127.4922.qmail@web52502.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050609024127.4922.qmail@web52502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A7B5B6.4070007@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130345 lj pierce / "flor2128" wrote: > I think that the Tom who died was actually Voldemort's father and > the other two his grandparents. If I remember correctly he hated > his father because when he found out that Voldemort's mother was > a witch he left them. Yup, and he was named for his father and grandfather (the Marvolo part; I expect that was his wizard grandfather). So the Tom found dead was LV's father. Swine, but still.... Michelle From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 03:34:24 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 03:34:24 -0000 Subject: Who is on the HPP Wal-Mart countdown display In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130346 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "firebird" wrote: > gelite67 wrote: > > Forgive me if this is old news, but I saw the HBP countdown > > display at my local Wal-Mart yesterday. It is the Pensieve scene > > but shows more at the bottom than what I've seen online. > > > > To the left, it shows a boy and girl, whom I assume are Hermione > > and Ron. On the bottom right, it shows a girl with long, distinctly > > red hair. I can only assume this is Ginny ... > > Firebird now: > > I think it's Lily. You'll notice the Dark Mark in the sky. I think the > scene Harry and DD are observing in the pensieve(with Ron and Hermione > observing them observing it) is the night Lily and James died. That's > why the column is between R/Hr and Lily -- they're not physically > present at the same time and place. Angie again: Interesting. I never thought of that -- but the girl looked very young to me. Next time I go in, I'll have to look at it more closely (like a dork) and see if the redhead's eyes are like Harry's (or the other way around, I guess). Using a Pensieve to find out what happened at GH has been a pet theory of mine -- I hope that's what's happening! From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Jun 9 03:41:17 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:41:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: <42A79FDB.6010101@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <00eb01c56ca5$18759590$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130347 >>Juli now: Sure killing Harry would be a HUGE shock for all of us, >>specially since the books are called "Harry Potter", I mean when >>does the main character dies? only in lame movies, in good movies >>the star gets to live, even if he/she's all alone in the world. >>And I believe this whole series are "good". >Alisha: > >I have to disagree with you here, Juli. The most popular movies are >the ones where the star lives, but I don't think the best ones are. >People like to be told that good always wins unequivically, but people need to be told that sometimes good people die and we can only hope that they take down some evil along the way. That's what makes the difference between fiction and literature. One tells people what they want to hear and the other tells people what they need to hear. Sherry now: i totally disagree with that. Literature can have either or ending. However, life, real life, is full of enough circumstances without happy endings. I dislike books or movies with no hope. In fact, though my very favorite book in the world of my whole life, has a mixed ending, happy and sad, the overall feeling of hope is what makes it work for me. Otherwise, I don't like to read things that are supposedly good literature but filled with misery and hopelessness. My real life has been hard enough for me to know about hard times already. The daily news is full of unhappy endings. I read fiction to enjoy myself. I read nonfiction to educate myself, even about difficult things. To me, Harry dying would be an act of total hopelessness and futility. If I was a child reading them, it would have filled me with despair and a sense that it wasn't worth trying to be brave and good, because you were still going to get kicked down anyway. JKR may very well end the series with the death of Harry, but many of us will be very unhappy with that, and many children will feel betrayed. As for happy endings meaning a book isn't good literature, what about Jane Austen? I'd rather read her any day than say Dickens. I just don't think Harry dying, even if it's by self sacrifice would make a satisfying ending in any way. But thankfully, we don't have to worry about that quite yet! Whew. Sherry From k.coble at comcast.net Thu Jun 9 03:33:15 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:33:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rumours In-Reply-To: <42A79FDB.6010101@sympatico.ca> References: <42A79FDB.6010101@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <7a1cc8962b1146f31d06f858cc53ac72@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130348 On Jun 8, 2005, at 8:48 PM, heather the buzzard wrote: > > I heard a rumour -- cannot remember where, and have NO idea how > grounded in fact it is -- that the second-last chapter of the last > book will be called "The Man Who Died".? K: See, this is the thing about rumours. You heard that here, in this group. It was somebody's prediction in one of the earlier discussions. We're getting seriously meta-meta-meta here. Katherine [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anurim at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 03:53:00 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rumours In-Reply-To: <7a1cc8962b1146f31d06f858cc53ac72@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20050609035300.9508.qmail@web32607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130349 heather the buzzard: > > I heard a rumour -- cannot remember where, and > have NO idea how > > grounded in fact it is -- that the second-last > chapter of the last > > book will be called "The Man Who Died". > Katherine > > See, this is the thing about rumours. You heard > that here, in this > group. It was somebody's prediction in one of the > earlier discussions. > We're getting seriously meta-meta-meta here. Actually, I proposed that as a possible title for the last chapter on HPANA many weeks ago, but I, for once, meant it as a joke. I think it might be a bit too cheap for Jo - but who knows? Perhaps it only seems cheap to me because I got used to the idea. Mira __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 03:57:28 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 03:57:28 -0000 Subject: Teaching Styles and Motivation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130350 Betsy Hp: And Harry *has* managed to learn under Snape in the past. So, *if Harry had wanted to learn* he would have learned under Snape. Bookworm: I agree with your second statement, but IMO Harry has managed to learn *in spite* of Snape for many of his lessons. I will, however, concede that he definately learned to pay attention to the details from Snape Betsy Hp: Exactly! If Harry had wanted to learn Occlumency, he'd have learned it. Personally, I think even if Lupin had been the teacher instead of Snape, Harry would *still* have failed to block his dreams. He may have felt a bit more guilty about not doing the work, but he would have followed the same path. (And the drama would have gone *way* down.) Bookworm: There is the possibility that Lupin would have described the situation in such a way that Harry could accept the importance of Occlumency. Maybe not, and it definately wouldn't have been as dramatic - or deadly - but Lupin does have a way of reaching out to his students the Snape lacks. >>Jen: Another teacher would probably use very similar language to describe the process of Occlumency to Harry, to train him on the skills he needs to learn. Without the sneering, coolness, danger, snarling, and contempt, perhaps Harry will hear what they have to say.< Bookworm: When you say "another teacher" does this mean other than Lupin or Snape? And would that teacher describe the process the same way that Snape did without the nastiness? Or use the same words in a nicer tone of voice? For a motivated, or even a mildly interested, student either option might work. For an unmotivated student, very little will work until the motivation is addressed. Yes, I know the arguments that Harry lied to Snape. Snape also said he would know if Harry was not practicing. As a teacher, he failed to recognize his student's failings. Betsy Hp: I think Snape gave Harry an excuse, actually. Harry didn't want to stop the dreams and Snape provided a good scapegoat for not doing the work. Because I think Harry *did* hear what Snape was telling him, he just chose not to believe him. Bookworm: Definitely. The whole situation has several conflicting aspects that makes analysis of it difficult: Harry's motivation, Lupin and Snape's teaching styles, and Harry's feeling towards each of the professors. The Occlumency lessons were the worst possible combination of those aspects. Ravenclaw Bookworm From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 05:51:14 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 05:51:14 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: <42A7B0F7.3010805@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > > Harry's death might be necessary in order to 'bring down Voldemort > with him', or something like that. That to defeat Voldemort he has to sacrifice himself. And successfully -- the world is free of Voldemort for good, and praise the memory of the noble Harry, who valued the safety of the world and its future over his own life; > which I think is a noble and 'good' message. Tonks: I agree. I have said this before and I am going to say it again, but somewhat disguised to make it more palatable to all. I am going to say it again with a slightly different twist too. I think this is how the series will end and most readers here will probably be OK with this ending. Picture it: DD teaches Harry about the secret of the Phoenix sometime in book 6 or maybe early in book 7. In addition, Harry understands that he must sacrifice his life to save the world or worlds (WW/MW). Harry is prepared to do that and will give himself freely. He will have a chance to save himself or have someone else save him, but he will not take that way out, he will accept the fact that he must die. Then some sort of exciting story unfolds which leads up to his death. Upon his death, the power of the *Dark Lord* is broken. Perhaps Tom Riddle is released and goes on to his own journey behind the veil. Of if Tom/LV/Dark Lord are really all one person, then again the power of the Dark Lord/LV is broken and he goes beyond the veil with Harry. Harry may go somewhere else while he is beyond the veil and there may be some meeting there with I am not sure who. (Sort of like going into the depth of Hell. This Harry will have to do to break the connection with Tom/LV.) Now everyone (us the readers) will cry and scream and carry on like some of us did when we thought that JKR had killed off Arthur. Then before the last pages Harry will use the secret of the Phoenix that DD taught him and he will come back either to live as a wizard with a normal life span Or he will come back only briefly to tell his friends and others the secret of the Phoenix and that they too can have eternal life. And then he will get on his broomstick and fly back through the veil. Some of the ghost may choice to go with him. He will be happy and so will his friends because they know that he is alive in another place and that some day they will join him there. Also he will tell them, like DD, that whenever someone needs help all they have to do is call for his help and Harry in the form of Faulks will come to their aid. Tonks_op From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 9 06:16:20 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 06:16:20 -0000 Subject: Underage Wizardry In-Reply-To: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C567E@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130352 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wilson, Bruce" wrote: > Lyra: > > I guess someone needs to convince Dumbledore that "domestic magic" > would be a useful subject. (He might realize it's a lot less dodgy > than divination.) > > > [Wilson, Bruce] > The Wizardling equivalent of Home Economics? This would be especially useful for Muggleborns (or Mugglereared) like Hermione and Harry. Children raised in a wizard household could learn those sorts of spells from their parents. > > Even requiring the professors to have a unit on 'practical household applications' as a part of each class would be useful. > > However, remember---absense of presence is not the same thing as presence of absence. Just because we aren't shown something in the Wizardling World doesn't mean that it isn't there. Like Narnia, Middle Earth, and Wonderland, the WW--or even Velgarth and the Seven Kingdoms---has an existance outside of the author's published works. > > BAW I think you're right about there being a unit on 'practical household applications' within standard lessons that we do not see. I also think that pure blood wizzards probably help their muggle- born/raised housemates with such things. We see Hermione knitting magically and she complains that she was not as fast during the holidays when she had to do it 'manually', but we've never seen her dashing off for a 'magical dressmaking and needlecrafts' lesson! I suspect that Ginny showed her how, having been taught at home by Molly, who we know specuialises in jumpers. I think this also helps explain why Harry is pounced on for doing magic at home. They know that he is the 'only wizard in the village'. At his trial when Mrs Figg testifies someone remarks that there are no other magical people registered in Little Whinging. Therefore if something magical happens there, it must be Harry. QED. If there are magical happenings in The Burrow, however, there are adult wizards living there to whom it could be (and probably is) attributed. Karen From labmystc at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 04:12:28 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (labmystc) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 04:12:28 -0000 Subject: "Love" is the power to vanquish LV Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130353 I'm new so be patient with me here. I've had a theory since finishing OoTP. The theme that has run strong through this series, especially for Harry, has been the assistance from those he cared about. Ron and Hermione, Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid, all have helped him in some ways to overcome his present situations. Most of all was the "blood protection" that Lily passed on to him through her death. This protection has served Harry well, and perhaps prevented his death at least twice at the hands of LV. However, does anyone really think Harry has the knowledge or power to defeat LV on his own? I personally don't think so and with that I offer this theory: Dumbledore by all accounts is more powerful than LV, has more knowledge, even of the dark arts(possibly), and is rumored to be the only one LV fears. Even though Harry has thwarted LV four times, LV still does not fear him, these things only make him angrier. Dumbledore has grown very fond of Harry, and some would say he even LOVES him like a son. What if, through his own sacrifice for Harry, Dumbledore somehow transfers his powers to Harry? I have thought and thought about this, and it seems the only way Harry can survive. I think Dumbledore is the only one with the knowledge and practical use of magic to defeat LV, and this would provide the method for Harry to fulfill the prophecy. What do you all think? Chris From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 9 09:04:44 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:04:44 -0000 Subject: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130354 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca Dreiling" wrote: > Perhaps Harry's powers will be limited, stripped down. He might have to learn again what had once been natural to him once the conflict with LV ends. Maybe he'll no longer be a wizard with natural talent. More like Neville perhaps. > What powers would that be? Lyra has an exceptional skill, she did not have to learn. Harry has two skills we know of that he did not have to learn: flying and parceltonque. He has a talent for DADA but needs to practice, just as for the rest of his classes. Neville lacks confidence. As soon as he gets it, or proper motivation he soars. One question which severely bothers me: What is it that people have with a necessary 'bad' ending. Harry either dying or loosing his powers as something positive, good and of more moral value than him surviving and getting on with his life? Isn't it far more a question of the ending fitting the story, the ending being consistent with the WW? Harry dying could be done, but the loosing his powers? I'm sorry, but that is just not consistent with the WW, where magic is a genetical thing, inherent in people, not a fluke accident. Alisha: The most popular movies are the ones where the star lives, but I don't think the best ones are. People like to be told that good always wins unequivically, but people need to be told that sometimes good people die and we can only hope that they take down some evil along the way. Gerry I don't agree at all. The best books and the best movies are where the plot is consistent. And in my opinion, the best ones there are are the ones that give you hope, and give you something which helps you along in your own life. The hero dying is not necessarily good or what people need to be told. I don't believe in 'people need to be told.' Life itself does quite a good job in confronting people with pain, death and suffering as well as surviving, getting over things and joy. If JKR lets Harry die, it will be meaningful. If she lets him survive, it will be meaningful. But I sincerely hope she will not let him die because that is somehow more literary acceptible according to the current fashion. Gerry From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 09:28:37 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:28:37 -0000 Subject: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130355 Gerry: > > I can imagine him living somewhere more or less isolated, but I can > easier imagine him to become a professional quidditch player an have a > couple of years of pure fun before he figures out what he wants to do > with the rest of his life. Though I cannot imagine him becoming > Minister of Magic, that sounds far too boring for someone like him. Finwitch: Well, if he survives, I'd say he will become an auror. (at least, that's what he wants to do...) But - I do not know if Harry will survive. Being 'for children' does not mean the hero can't die - (just think of the poor little girl trying to sell matches, or the original Grim-tale of little mermaid - these are fairy tales). There can be an end where Harry dies. Let's say Harry sacrifices his life for Neville or Ron (or whoever) - and Voldemort repeats his error - and THIS time Voldemort dies when the curse bounces back to him. Harry may even become a phoenix later... bound to the person he died for. NOT an animagus, but a true phoenix... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 10:56:42 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:56:42 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Loyalty (was:Re: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130356 > > Betsy Hp: > Is Sirius loyal to Remus? Up until James and Lily and Harry were > betrayed to Voldemort, Sirius thought Remus was the traitor. So > there was a good long time when Sirius probably had no loyalty > towards Remus. And from the brief glimpse we had during the pensieve > scene it looked like the core friendship was James and Sirius with > Remus and Peter more on the outside. Sirius was awfully cavalier > about Remus' disease as well. I'm not saying Sirius didn't *like* > Remus, but I think his loyalty was mainly towards James. Finwitch: As I see it, Remus, James, Sirius and Peter formed a pack. Their leader (or alpha) was James (or Prongs). His loyalty, as I view it, belonged to the pack. When James married and fathered Harry - the whole family was part of that pack, the pack which, then, included Remus and Peter. As for the events later - Yes, Remus IS in charge. The potential Albus saw in him long time ago... I'd say Sirius does submit to him. (after all, REMUS is now the one who has lived in the world etc.) Remus shows inteeresting reaction when Harry says he heard his father when Dementors closed upon him. And then, when *Harry* stops these two adults -- he's borrowing his father's authority - that of Prongs over Moony and Padfoot... (and he CAN do it - as Remus knows that Harry witnessed the death of Prongs - but doesn't know any details). Besides, I think they both agreed that being sentenced to Dementor's Kiss would be worse than death... Finwitch From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 9 11:58:33 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:58:33 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130357 snip Alla wrote: snip > Lexicon places Prank in the sixth year. Is it because of "Sirius > Black showed that he was capable of murder at the age of 16" or > other obvious quote which I can't remember now? > > What if Sirius turned sixteen in their fifth year? I sort of share > the speculation that Prank may have occurred right after pensieve > scene, but if it indeed happens in their sixth year, Severus would > have even more time to do a little research on Remus. :-) Potioncat: You know, in spite of the fact that we're missing pieces, we've done a pretty good job of getting this puzzle together. I mean, after all, the pieces didn't come in one box, but were scattered out over several boxes, erm books. We learned in SS/PS that James Potter saved Severus Snape's life. Did anyone think for a moment that it happened at Hogwarts? Then in PoA we learn that according to Snape 16-year-old Sirius tried to kill Severus; and later in PoA we learn that there was a joke played by Sirius that could have caused Severus to be killed. Finally in OoP, we get a closer look at the true animosity between the boys. At last, via JKR's website, we learn that both Severus and Remus were 16 by OWLs. Now, if the age is specific--a clue tossed out by JKR--then the prank could have happened in 5th or 6th year.(Depending on when Sirius' birthday is.) By Harry's time, there was a week of school left after OWLs were finished. So if the DADA OWL had been the first test, it's possible there was still two weeks of school left, and there could have been another full moon before the end of school. There is time for the prank to happen those last two weeks. Now, what if Severus did suspect Remus was a werewolf? He studies on the ways to subdue a werewolf (or maybe even to kill one, that's part of the essay he will assign) and he goes after Remus with the intent to discover whether he is one, and to kill him if need be. Sirius doesn't think Severus knows. Who knows what James thinks? But James pulls Severus to safety. Maybe it's really Remus' life James saved, but Snape has put a different spin on it. Or, perhaps DD knows that Sirius put Severus in danger on purpose, but that Severus was putting Remus in danger on purpose and both 16 year-old boys were "capable of murder". And perhaps he knows how impulsive a 16-year old boy can be. The fact that DD downplays the "murder" aspect tells me that he doesn't see it the same way that Snape does. Potioncat From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Thu Jun 9 12:30:01 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:30:01 -0000 Subject: Ending the series Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130358 Tonks, with snips, said: No: HPFGUIDX 130359 Hello again everyone, long time no post (although I admit to being a lurker rather than a poster!) One thing has always puzzled me about the Half Blood Prince. As far as know, I can't find any reference to royalty in the WW. If there was no royalty, then the HBP must be royal from his muggle side. I ask myself who and when? If the marriage between witch/wizard happened in the distant past, then the current character would only hold the title of Prince, if he was actually part of a current royal family. Hmmm - there is no denying that some of the Brits could have fathered an illegitimate child along the way, but then they definitely wouldn't be given the title prince! I don't think that JKR will go down that road.... So we might have a character who is part of ancient history and now dead and the description given on JKRs website was of a portrait. Or, it is someone with links to a recent royal family that no longer exists - say the Russian one (they were murdered before the first world war), or one of the Eastern European families (although I know virtually nothing about them, so apologies if I've got that totally wrong.) If it was one of those families, then Victor Krum might be a possibility, but personally I don't think so. Or we might have a situation where one of the characters in the book had a relationship with a royal and they had a son. It seemed to me that the description of the HBP (if that was the HBP and not the new DDA teacher) was of an older man, so that rules out most of the characters except the older teachers - DD, McGonagall, Moody (god help us!) etc. Again, I'm not really persuaded. If the description was not the HBP, then my bet would be on Sirius having an affair, but that would mean that his son was around Harry's age, and that Sirius didn't know of his existance. All these suggestions seem unsatisfactory to me, and but for the fact that I'm convinced that the half blood prince is Caradoc Dearborn, who I think still lives, I would be tempted to think the HBP is dead and gone, and that's why he has the title of Prince. OK anyone else, got any ideas about how our new character can have a claim to the title of Prince? Saraquel From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Jun 9 13:34:53 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:34:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002601c56cf8$05a6bdb0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130360 Finwitch: But - I do not know if Harry will survive. Being 'for children' does not mean the hero can't die - (just think of the poor little girl trying to sell matches, or the original Grim-tale of little mermaid - these are fairy tales). There can be an end where Harry dies. Let's say Harry sacrifices his life for Neville or Ron (or whoever) - and Voldemort repeats his error - and THIS time Voldemort dies when the curse bounces back to him. Sherry now: As a child, I hated Grimm's fairytales, Hans Christian Andersen and the rest. They were so negative, with no hope or purpose in the bad endings. i suppose part of my reaction to the idea of Harry dying is that I am living, and I don't see the deaths of my loved ones, especially those who died too young, as something peaceful, adventurous or wonderful. i am part of the left behind, and to quote a poem, whose title and author escapes me right now, i am not resigned! The poem was about someone's reaction to death and the common view that it should be accepted, it is ok and just part of life. No, I am not resigned, and I will not be resigned if Harry dies and stays dead at the end of book seven! He is young, and he's had a very unhappy life. He deserves to live and find peace and happiness after kicking Voldemort's butt. A bow to supposedly good literature and killing him off will never work for me. Of course, not that my feelings on the matter should matter to JKR. She is the author, and she will do whatever she has planned to do. But I can never see the death of a 17-year-old boy as something noble and right. Sentimental old fool, that's me! smile. Sherry From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 13:54:17 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:54:17 -0000 Subject: Did Lily and James store themselves as memories in Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130361 Hi everyone, not sure if this topic has been discussed already but I haven't seen it. It occurs to me that Lily and James have stored themselves as memories in Harry, in the same way that Tom Riddle stored himself in the diary in COS. Lily would have stored herself in Harry's eyes, James perhaps in his face and hair. At the end of POA, DD says to Harry: POA p312 Br Ed "You think the dead we have loved ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble? Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him. How else could you produce that particular patronus? Prongs rode again last night. ... (paragraph cut) So you did see your father again last night, Harry ... you found him inside yourself." Some time ago, someone posted (apologies, I'm not sure who you were) that they thought James and Lily worked in the Department of Mysteries as unspeakables. I liked this idea, and it could be that they were researching something which could vanquish LV, which is why he was after them. They could have "hidden" something in Harry, by hiding memories of themselves in him, so that even if they died, he would continue to have access to it. I don't think it's anything as simple as information, as that would have been shared with Dumbledore and the Order, though what it might be I don't know. However, there is the point that LV specifically suggests that Lily does not need to die, which she would if LV suspected that she had been working as an unspeakable (unless she was a double agent, but let's not go there...). But hey, even if the details aren't right, I still think there might be something in the general concept. That is, that something has been hidden inside Harry by his parents, possibly contained in memories of themselves. Is this the "power the Dark Lord knows not" in the prophecy. Any thoughts anyone? Saraquel From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Thu Jun 9 09:05:12 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:05:12 -0000 Subject: Madam Hooch: Yellow Eyes? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130362 Hi, I apologise if this has been talked about before (and if you have can you tell me what posts to look at), but my question to anyone that is interested is: Why is Madam Hooche's eyes yellow? I can't remember any other witch or wizard having different coloured eyes from the usual, except for maybe LV. Rowling also describes them as hawk like. I know she doesn't play a major role in the books, but I am curious to know if anyone has any theories? pot_of_harry From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 9 12:32:15 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:32:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rumours In-Reply-To: <20050609035300.9508.qmail@web32607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050609035300.9508.qmail@web32607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A836CF.1010800@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130363 heather the buzzard: >>> I heard a rumour -- cannot remember where, and have NO idea how grounded in fact it is -- that the second-last chapter of the last book will be called "The Man Who Died". >>> Katherine >>See, this is the thing about rumours. You heard >>that here, in this group. It was somebody's prediction in one of >>theearlier discussions. We're getting seriously meta-meta-meta here. Mira wrote: >Actually, I proposed that as a possible title for the >last chapter on HPANA many weeks ago, but I, for once, >meant it as a joke. I think it might be a bit too >cheap for Jo - but who knows? Perhaps it only seems >cheap to me because I got used to the idea. Hahahaaa! That's too funny. I don't think I actually heard it on this list -- I've only been on here for a week or so. I don't recall where I read it, but it was definitely on a website somewhere. I would guess, then, then someone else read it here 'weeks ago' then incorporated it into their own theory... Gosh, now I wish I could remember where I read it. I don't think that JKR has released ANY information about the last chapter titles, so I was pretty sure it was groundless. However, it fits so nicely into my theory of Harry's necessary self-sacrifice that I decided to 'run with it'. I still think it would be a GREAT title, not cheap at all. So, kudos on your more-apt-than-you-intended 'joke'. :) heather the meta-meta-meta-buzzard From kc_bryantpelton at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 12:49:42 2005 From: kc_bryantpelton at yahoo.com (Kelly Pelton) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 05:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's failure to learn Occulmency Message-ID: <20050609124942.35787.qmail@web32715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130364 I've noticed several posts talking about Harry's failure to learn Occulmency. What if he is learning, but this skill requires years of work to become proficient at it. For example, most people don't learn how to play a musical instrument overnight. Their are many things in life that take a lot of practice to learn to do really well: cooking, driving a car, even the practice of self control. If we didn't all learn how to control our feelings and desires to some extent we'd all be in a world where we'd be nothing more than toddlers (preschoolers) on a larger scale but look how long it takes to become an adult. Perhaps Occulmency is something that you cannot learn quickly. It could be that Dumbledore sees he will need this skill in a few years but he sees that Harry's strong enough to start learning now. Kelly From brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org Thu Jun 9 13:13:49 2005 From: brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org (Wilson, Bruce) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:13:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) Message-ID: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C568E@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> No: HPFGUIDX 130365 >> Betsy Hp, who googled A.S. Byatt and isn't quite sure how she >> applies Nora wrote: > Google a little harder. She wrote a rather snide essay about the > whole phenomenon, and what she really doesn't like is the lack of the > numinous in HP. The magic is 'ersatz', for her. [Wilson, Bruce]: I found the essay. Although she has some points, she lost me when she said that the Wood is 'dangerous only because [Rowling] says it is.' The books clearly show the dangers of the Wood and the creatures that live there. I wouldn't want Byatt or anyone else to say that she likes the books when she does not, but her essay misses the point. Rowling is not trying to write the same sort of fantasy that LeGuin was; comparing the two is 'apples and oranges.' BAW From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 13:32:52 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (madam_marozi) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:32:52 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130366 > >>Betsy Hp: > A happy memory is > never described. And Harry doesn't say, I did it because I finally > figured out a strong happy memory, he says he did it because he knew > he'd already done it. Of course it's contradictory -- it's Time > Travel (tm), creator of contradiction headaches and unsolvable > paradoxes the world over . But it's the paradox that allows > Harry to finally produce a Patronus. Madam M: But Harry actually first produced a corporeal Patronus at the Quidditch match vs. Ravenclaw. He himself was too focused on the snitch to notice: "He didn't stop to think. Plunging a hand down the neck of his robes, he whipped out his wand and roared, 'Expecto patronum!' Something silver-white, something enormous, erupted from the end of his wand. He knew it had shot directly at the dementors but didn't pause to watch" (US pb 262). But Lupin and Dumbledore both saw Prongs clearly enough: "'That was quite some Patronus,' said a voice in Harry's ear. Harry turned around to see Professor Lupin, who looked both shaken and pleased" (263). "'Prongs rode again last night...Last night Sirius told me all about how they became Animagi,' said Dumbledore, smiling...'And then I remembered the most unusual form your Patronus took, when it charged Mr. Malfoy down at your Quidditch match against Ravenclaw'" (428). The difference between the two instances when Harry produces a corporeal Patronus and the occasions where Harry only produced incomplete Patroni (practice with Lupin and his first attempts to protect Sirius by the lake) is that in the latter instances, the process is described: We see Harry select a happy memory and consciously attempt to apply it. Time-traveling Harry, on the other hand, as in the Quidditch match, operates automatically. We don't see a happy memory referred to, but that doesn't mean there isn't one making the charm work, just that Harry is not consciously aware of it. He's not overthinking things, just letting what he has practiced function as second-nature. In this way learning magic seems less a conventional intellectual discipline and more akin to music: you practice again and again so that, in concert, you don't have to think about which note comes next. Or athletics: baseball players practice, but no one ever hit a home run by *thinking* about when to swing the bat. So the "hit'em over and over" technique, which both Lupin and Snape use, seems to be an appropriate one for teaching defensive magic. And it wasn't completely unsuccessful in Snape's case; Harry did try to fight Snape out of his mind, and managed a couple of partial successes. But the lessons stopped before he had progressed far enough. From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 9 14:51:23 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:51:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP - who was the royal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A8576B.6080208@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130367 saraquel_omphale wrote: >One thing has always puzzled me about the Half Blood Prince. As far >as know, I can't find any reference to royalty in the WW. If there >was no royalty, then the HBP must be royal from his muggle side. I >ask myself who and when? > The first time I heard the suggestion that this might be the title of the next book (before it was confirmed), I said "blech... no way... that's not even a *believable* rumour." For exactly that reason -- there is never any mention of royalty in Rowling's universe. The idea of 'royal' wizards just does not fit with the society as it has heretofore been described. Besides which, it sounded 'cheesy'. Then it was confirmed, and Rowling has gone on to say that she *loves* this particular title (and it was originally a working title for what turned into CoS, and held that title even after the plotline had been removed simply because she loved it so much). I normally have great respect for her sense of taste... heh... So I had to re-think a lot of things. I still think it's a cheesy title. But, I thought "Goblet of Fire" was a horridly cheesy title too, and it turned into a fantastic book. And come on... "Chamber of Secrets"? Okay, they are kids' books, after all. So I'm allowed to be less than impressed with the titles, even though I deeply admire and adore the stories themselves *heh*. So I'm not predisposed to think the story will be cheesy just because I'm not fond of the title. The Goblet of Fire, for instance, was not actually the focal point of its book. It was relaly just a small part of the tale. The Triwizard Tournament was the main element of the story, and the book was almost called that, but GoF had more dramatic punch. The HBP might, therefore, only be a minor part of the plot. Integral, but not momentous, if you would. Anyway -- back to the royalty issue. JKR hasn't disappointed me yet with her plotlines, so I'm optimistic that it will all be explained convincingly. I admit I hadn't thought of the idea of it being a prince on his MUGGLE side, that could work. Also, I would guess it's a foreigner, from eastern lands perhaps, where royalty is treated differently (and perhaps even there is royalty in the WW in other countries). If there is all of a sudden a royal wizarding family in Britain that has never been mentioned before, then I'll be P-O'd. Heh. >If the description was not the HBP, then my bet would be on Sirius >having an affair, but that would mean that his son was around >Harry's age, and that Sirius didn't know of his existance. > > I doubt the HBP will be the result of any 'affair'. These are, after all, kids' books. I mean, it's possible. If she did it, she would find a way to work it in inoffensively, I'm sure. But I still doubt it would be Sirius -- he was only a few years out of school when he went to Azkaban, and there's been no mention of his ever having a girlfriend or anything. Just my opinion. :) heather the buzzard From alishak at spu.edu Thu Jun 9 16:16:10 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:16:10 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130368 "greg_a126" wrote: > The Harry Potter series is currently on track to be an all-time > classic, destined to be read by all future generations. If Harry, > Ron or Hermione dies at the end of book 7 (or any point in between) > the peole who bought it and have been reading the whole series will > read it, and that will be the end of Harry Potter. > If good wins, I'll read them to my kids one day. JKR > has to know that. Alisha: JKR may indeed know this (if it's actually true, which is debatable). However she has said over and over again that she is writing these books for herself, not for any of her readers. She also said that she never expected the books to be so popular. So, while the Harry Potter series may end up being immensely popular (no matter how much I love it, I don't think it will ever be a "classic"), JKR is /not/ writing a classic story. She's writing her story, and if Harry (or Ron or Hermione) has to die in order for her artistic and literary conscience to be pacified, then he will. And Harry dying doesn't mean that good doesn't win. It just means that good loses something in the fight, which is important. Without sacrifice, victory means nothing. -Alisha From alishak at spu.edu Thu Jun 9 17:10:28 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:10:28 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: <00eb01c56ca5$18759590$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130369 > >>Juli now: Sure killing Harry would be a HUGE shock for all of us, > >>specially since the books are called "Harry Potter", I mean when > >>does the main character dies? only in lame movies, in good movies > >>the star gets to live, even if he/she's all alone in the world. > >>And I believe this whole series are "good". > > >Alisha: > > > >I have to disagree with you here, Juli. The most popular movies are > >the ones where the star lives, but I don't think the best ones are. > >People like to be told that good always wins unequivically, but people need > to be told that sometimes good people die and we can only hope that they > take down some evil along the way. That's what makes the difference between > fiction and literature. One tells people what they want to hear and the > other tells people what they need to hear. > > Sherry now: > > i totally disagree with that. Literature can have either or ending. > However, life, real life, is full of enough circumstances without happy > endings. I dislike books or movies with no hope. In fact, though my very > favorite book in the world of my whole life, has a mixed ending, happy and > sad, the overall feeling of hope is what makes it work for me. Otherwise, I > don't like to read things that are supposedly good literature but filled > with misery and hopelessness. My real life has been hard enough for me to > know about hard times already. The daily news is full of unhappy endings. > I read fiction to enjoy myself. I read nonfiction to educate myself, even > about difficult things. To me, Harry dying would be an act of total > hopelessness and futility. If I was a child reading them, it would have > filled me with despair and a sense that it wasn't worth trying to be brave > and good, because you were still going to get kicked down anyway. JKR may > very well end the series with the death of Harry, but many of us will be > very unhappy with that, and many children will feel betrayed. As for happy > endings meaning a book isn't good literature, what about Jane Austen? I'd > rather read her any day than say Dickens. I just don't think Harry dying, > even if it's by self sacrifice would make a satisfying ending in any way. > But thankfully, we don't have to worry about that quite yet! Whew. > > Sherry Alisha: Wow, that really got my defenses up, so I'll try to keep calm about this. I never said that happy endings made the difference between fiction and literature. I said that literature tells us what we need to hear as opposed to what we want to hear. Sometimes we need to hear that Elizabeth Bennet, for all her poor upbringing and uncouth family, wins the heart of Darcy and goes on to do great and noble things with her new position. Sometimes we need to know that good people have good things happen to them. And sometimes it's true, that does happen. However, a happy ending does not necessarily make a good ending. Harry Potter's story is a distinctly moral story (not religious, not allegorical, just moral). Therefore it is necessary that Good triumph over Evil in the end. It is not, however, necessary that Harry lives and Voldemort dies. Think of Hamlet (depressing, I know). Hamlet doesn't survive the story, but he takes down his unscrupulous mother and his villainous uncle before he goes. That's what's important. JKR may be able to tell her story without having Harry die. That would work. It would also work to have Harry die to show that sacrifice is sometimes necessary for victory. I do think, however, that even if Harry lives, it won't be the happy ending most children are expecting. If JKR is to make this story believable and real, then Harry will never be the same again. We won't ever see that happy, healthy boy we met on the train to Hogwart's. To bring in a similar story, he'd have to be like Frodo, broken by his experience. -Alisha " 'But.' said Sam, and tears started in his eyes, 'I thought you were going to enjoy the Shire, too, for years and years, after all you have done.' 'So I thought too, once. But I have been deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them.'" J.R.R. Tolkien Return of the King From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 17:09:48 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:09:48 -0000 Subject: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <002601c56cf8$05a6bdb0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130370 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: As a child, I hated Grimm's fairytales, Hans Christian Andersen and the rest. They were so negative, with no hope or purpose in the bad endings. Tonks: Ah, but they do have a purpose. I know a Psychologist who once told his client that the client had flunked their fairytale reading as a child and assigned him to read the Grimm tales. These stories and stories like them are used to convey deep truth. There is a type of psychotherapy that uses metaphor to bring about the change in the client that the client longs for. This type of story has been used since the beginning of time when our ancestors were sitting around the firelight listening to the wise men and women of the tribe. It is one of the best ways to teach deep truth because it bypasses our conscious mind and seeps into our soul. Do I think that this is the type of story that JKR is writing? Yes!! Tonks_op From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 9 17:23:34 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:23:34 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130371 Potioncat: > Now, what if Severus did suspect Remus was a werewolf? He studies > on the ways to subdue a werewolf (or maybe even to kill one, that's > part of the essay he will assign) and he goes after Remus with the > intent to discover whether he is one, and to kill him if need be. > Sirius doesn't think Severus knows. Who knows what James thinks? > But James pulls Severus to safety. Maybe it's really Remus' life > James saved, but Snape has put a different spin on it. Or, perhaps > DD knows that Sirius put Severus in danger on purpose, but that > Severus was putting Remus in danger on purpose and both 16 year-old > boys were "capable of murder". And perhaps he knows how impulsive a > 16- year old boy can be. > > The fact that DD downplays the "murder" aspect tells me that he > doesn't see it the same way that Snape does. SSSusan: This may have been suggested this way before, but if it has, I don't recall it. I really think this is a distinct possibility, Potioncat - - that while Sirius did not believe Snape had the foggiest idea what he'd be getting himself into, Snape *did* suspect what Lupin was and went into the tunnel prepared to kill Lupin, and that James "rescued" *two* potential 16-year-old murderers that night. As you say, it would go a long way towards making DD's "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus," remark make sense. Snape shuts up at that point, stops his protestations, so maybe those words of DD's were just a "dig" enough for Snape to have gotten the reminder? Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 17:43:57 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:43:57 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130372 Sherry: I dislike books or movies with no hope. In fact, though my very favorite book in the world of my whole life, has a mixed ending, happy and sad, the overall feeling of hope is what makes it work for me. Otherwise, I don't like to read things that are supposedly good literature but filled with misery and hopelessness. To me, Harry dying would be an act of total hopelessness and futility. If I was a child reading them, it would have filled me with despair and a sense that it wasn't worth trying to be brave and good, because you were still going to get kicked down anyway. JKR may very well end the series with the death of Harry, but many of us will be very unhappy with that, and many children will feel betrayed. As for happy endings meaning a book isn't good literature, what about Jane Austen? I'd rather read her any day than say Dickens. I just don't think Harry dying,even if it's by self sacrifice would make a satisfying ending in any way. But thankfully, we don't have to worry about that quite yet! Whew. > Alisha: Wow, that really got my defenses up, so I'll try to keep calm about this. I never said that happy endings made the difference between fiction and literature. I said that literature tells us what we need to hear as opposed to what we want to hear. However, a happy ending does not necessarily make a good ending. Harry Potter's story is a distinctly moral story (not religious, not allegorical, just moral). Therefore it is necessary that Good triumph over Evil in the end. It is not, however, necessary that Harry lives and Voldemort dies. I do think, however, that even if Harry lives, it won't be the happy ending most children are expecting. If JKR is to make this story believable and real, then Harry will never be the same again. We won't ever see that happy, healthy boy we met on the train to Hogwart's. To bring in a similar story, he'd have to be like Frodo, broken by his experience. Alla: I am pretty much in agreement with Sherry, so I hope my post won't bring your defenses up. :-) We are all just describe what kind of ending we hope for, right? No, happy ending does not necessarily make good literature, just as vice versa is true. You think that sacrifice may be necessary for the good ending, right? I sort of agree, I just don't think that this sacrifice should necessarily end up in Harry's dying. He may go into last battle thinking that he would die and ready to die, but survive eventually. There are plenty of sacrifices in series so far and I am pretty sure there will be more. I just don't think that Harry's sacrifice would be death. It could be the loose of the majority of his powers, I guess. I also think that Harry will be changed by his experiences, may be even hurt by them badly, but I absolutely don't think that for the good ending he should be broken forever as Frodo. I think that the openness for healing and Harry having loved ones around him could be done as great ending too. One of my favourite books of all time is "Crime and punishment" by Dostoevsky and even though the genre is very different and main character is much darker than Harry, he DOES gets to live at the end and gets redeemed because of love. And this book is considered to be classic literature not only in Russia,as far as I know. All that I am saying that IMO happy or semi happy ending for Harry will not diminish the quality of the series in general. Just my opinion, Alla. From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 9 18:04:55 2005 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:04:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: Potioncat: Now, what if Severus did suspect Remus was a werewolf? He studies on the ways to subdue a werewolf (or maybe even to kill one, that's part of the essay he will assign) and he goes after Remus with the intent to discover whether he is one, and to kill him if need be. Sirius doesn't think Severus knows. Who knows what James thinks? But James pulls Severus to safety. Maybe it's really Remus' life James saved, but Snape has put a different spin on it. Or, perhaps DD knows that Sirius put Severus in danger on purpose, but that Severus was putting Remus in danger on purpose and both 16 year-old boys were "capable of murder". And perhaps he knows how impulsive a 16- year old boy can be. The fact that DD downplays the "murder" aspect tells me that he doesn't see it the same way that Snape does. SSSusan: This may have been suggested this way before, but if it has, I don't recall it. I really think this is a distinct possibility, Potioncat - - that while Sirius did not believe Snape had the foggiest idea what he'd be getting himself into, Snape *did* suspect what Lupin was and went into the tunnel prepared to kill Lupin, and that James "rescued" *two* potential 16-year-old murderers that night. As you say, it would go a long way towards making DD's "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus," remark make sense. Snape shuts up at that point, stops his protestations, so maybe those words of DD's were just a "dig" enough for Snape to have gotten the reminder? Siriusly Snapey Susan Sue(hpfan): This is *very* intriguing on two fronts. If Snape did intend to kill Remus in the Shrieking Shack or the tunnel leading to it and James thwarted him, he has even more reason to hate James. The blaming of James for being part of the prank is what he tells Harry, but the truth would more likely be that he lost recognition and perhaps even an "Order of Merlin". After all, Lockhart has one. The second area I find interesting about this is DD and his decision to allow Snape to stay at school, knowing he attempted to kill another student. If DD believes (as he seems to) that what Sirius did was not commit an attempted murder but a prank that he believed Snape walked into with his eyes open, why did he protect Severus at that time? They were all in trouble, I am sure, but if DD knew for a fact that Snape intended to commit murder...that's a lot of forgiving. Sue From anurim at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 18:10:09 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rumours In-Reply-To: <42A836CF.1010800@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20050609181009.79446.qmail@web32604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130374 --- heather the buzzard wrote: > I don't think that JKR has released ANY information > about the last > chapter titles, so I was pretty sure it was > groundless. However, it > fits so nicely into my theory of Harry's necessary > self-sacrifice that I decided to 'run with it'. I > still think it would be a GREAT title, not cheap at > all. So, kudos on your more-apt-than-you-intended > 'joke'. :) Heather the buzzard, by 'cheap' I meant a bit obvious. 'The boy who lived' is an intriguing title and it stimulates associations, so I wouldn't be surprised if many other people came up with the same idea independently. But why should we take it to refer automatically to Harry? Why couldn't it refer to Voldemort instead? Mira __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 18:10:17 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050609181017.31603.qmail@web32713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130375 madorganization wrote: I said that literature tells us what we need to hear as opposed to what we want to hear. If JKR is to make this story believable and real, then Harry will never be the same again. We won't ever see that happy, healthy boy we met on the train to Hogwart's. Lynn: Well, if literature is what we need to hear, then Harry will survive and go on to live happily ever after since that's what I need to hear. However, since others probably need to hear something different, I guess the series won't satisfy everyone. That's the problem with the statement that literature tells us what we need to hear, just who determines what that is? Personally, I think literature is more about what the author wants to tell us. After all, how would they know what each individual needs to hear? Then, if we want to listen, we'll read what they've written. I certainly hope Harry is never the same. He wasn't a happy, healthy boy when he boarded that train to Hogwarts. He was a malnourished, abused, apparently friendless, unhappy boy who has finally gotten nourishment, is cared for, has friends and has learned to laugh and have fun. Obviously there is a different interpretation regarding the beginning of the book so who is to decide what type of ending is believeable or real? Or even if it has to be real? People keep talking about what lessons there should be and how the classics do this or that. However, JKR isn't CS Lewis, Tolkien, Austen, Hemingway or any other author. She has her own distinctive voice and I'm looking for her to give her own very distinctive ending. If the ending is one I don't want to listen to, then I'll probably never read a majority of the series again. However, if I want to listen, then the series will probably end up just like my Austen books, having to be replaced over and over for having been read so often. Lynn (who personally would like to see the series end with Harry killing Voldemort while saving Dumbledore then going on to be the DADA teacher and eventually replacing Dumbledore as Headmaster. He'll marry Ginny who will replace Flitwick when he retires.) test'; "> --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 18:12:40 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:12:40 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130376 SSSusan: This may have been suggested this way before, but if it has, I don't recall it. I really think this is a distinct possibility, Potioncat - - that while Sirius did not believe Snape had the foggiest idea what he'd be getting himself into, Snape *did* suspect what Lupin was and went into the tunnel prepared to kill Lupin, and that James "rescued" *two* potential 16-year-old murderers that night. As you say, it would go a long way towards making DD's "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus," remark make sense. Snape shuts up at that point, stops his protestations, so maybe those words of DD's were just a "dig" enough for Snape to have gotten the reminder? Alla: This makes sense for me too. In fact it makes more sense than Severus committing suicide. That is of course only makes sense if you are buying the idea of Snape figuring out who Remus was in advance, but as I said in my previous post, I am pretty much sold on it. This would also make sense in light of the JKR's answer about Prank in 2004, which was quoted few days ago here. There should be a reason of why when she answered why Sirius sent Snape to the Shack, she answered because Sirius loathed Snape and the loathing was entirely mutual. Now, I suppose it would be impulsive of Snape to try and kill werevolf, but we did see that he indeed can be very impulsive. > Sue(hpfan): The second area I find interesting about this is DD and his decision to allow Snape to stay at school, knowing he attempted to kill another student. If DD believes (as he seems to) that what Sirius did was not commit an attempted murder but a prank that he believed Snape walked into with his eyes open, why did he protect Severus at that time? They were all in trouble, I am sure, but if DD knew for a fact that Snape intended to commit murder...that's a lot of forgiving. Alla: Well, I don't find it implausible, if Dumbledore considered intentions of both parties. If Dumbledore indeed believed that Sirius had no clue about Snape's knowledge of Remus' situation, that makes Sirius to be quite guilty too. I think Dumbledore could have just gave them both second chances and of course was protecting Remus. Just speculating here of course. Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 9 18:15:34 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:15:34 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130377 Sue wrote: > The second area I find interesting about this is DD and his decision > to allow Snape to stay at school, knowing he attempted to kill > another student. If DD believes (as he seems to) that what Sirius > did was not commit an attempted murder but a prank that he believed > Snape walked into with his eyes open, why did he protect Severus at > that time? They were all in trouble, I am sure, but if DD knew for a > fact that Snape intended to commit murder...that's a lot of forgiving. Potioncat: Perhaps I made my point too strongly. Let's say, Snape suspects Remus is a werewolf and sees a chance to confirm that. He feels confident that he can defend himself/subdue the werewolf if need be. Severus is after all, Merlin's gift to DADA. Just as Sirius doesn't seem to intend Severus' death in the prank, Severus doesn't intend to kill Remus. But, either Remus or Severus could have died. So if this is at all close to the actual event, DD would see two 16- year-old boys who had created a situation of grave danger: equally guilty and equaly innocent. And James is still a hero for going in after Severus. Potioncat From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 18:18:33 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:18:33 -0000 Subject: HBP - who was the royal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > Hello again everyone, long time no post (although I admit to being a > lurker rather than a poster!) > > One thing has always puzzled me about the Half Blood Prince. As far > as know, I can't find any reference to royalty in the WW. If there > was no royalty, then the HBP must be royal from his muggle side. I, too, have wondered about the title. Does the word "Prince" have to denote royalty? I come at this from the unique perspective of having the maiden name "Prince." Perhaps it is not royalty, per se, but a characteristic. Or, perhaps it is what *others* thought of a particular person, either flattering or not. Granted, all of this is speculation until we read the book. I merely wanted to point out the possibility that royalty may not be the issue. Julie - who has learned to definitely think outside the box when reading JKR From lhuntley at fandm.edu Thu Jun 9 18:22:25 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:22:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <293c75c806edb8256a1ce720a3ce02dc@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 130379 Alisha: > Wow, that really got my defenses up, so I'll try to keep calm about > this. First off, kudos for a temper well kept. ^_^ > I never said that happy endings made the difference between > fiction and literature. I said that literature tells us what we > need to hear as opposed to what we want to hear. This is quite a strong, yet somewhat ambiguous, statement, and I was wondering if you could elaborate on why you think this is the case. I'm a little opposed to the idea of a clear demarcation between fiction and "literature", anyway (although I certainly admit that there are specific examples which fall pretty clearly to one side of the spectrum), and I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. How do we differentiate between what we "need" and what we "want" in fiction? If, as you seem to imply further into your argument, we sometimes "need" positive messages as much as negative ones, who is to say Harry Potter cannot be an example of such? (Sorry if I've misinterpreted your position.) While I think "telling" the reader something is an integral part of literature as a whole, I disagree that the quality of the message is a good measure of the difference between classic "literature" and mere "fiction". > Sometimes we need > to hear that Elizabeth Bennet, for all her poor upbringing and > uncouth family, wins the heart of Darcy and goes on to do great and > noble things with her new position. And, sometimes, don't we also need to hear that an orphaned boy, saddled with abusive caretakers, a dire prophecy, and an immortal nemesis can't find peace and happiness and family somewhere down the road? I'm being a bit facetious here, but this message boils down to a universal "truth" in literature: the downtrodden *do* have hope. > Sometimes we need to know that > good people have good things happen to them. So why not Harry Potter? > And sometimes it's > true, that does happen. However, a happy ending does not > necessarily make a good ending. Harry Potter's story is a > distinctly moral story (not religious, not allegorical, just > moral). Therefore it is necessary that Good triumph over Evil in > the end. It is not, however, necessary that Harry lives and > Voldemort dies. I agree wholeheartedly, but I disagree that the reverse is necessarily true. > Think of Hamlet (depressing, I know). Hamlet > doesn't survive the story, but he takes down his unscrupulous mother > and his villainous uncle before he goes. That's what's important. > JKR may be able to tell her story without having Harry die. That > would work. I still agree. (Wow, we're on a role here.) ^_^ > It would also work to have Harry die to show that > sacrifice is sometimes necessary for victory. I do think, however, > that even if Harry lives, it won't be the happy ending most children > are expecting. If JKR is to make this story believable and real, > then Harry will never be the same again. We won't ever see that > happy, healthy boy we met on the train to Hogwart's. . . . Aaaand, here's where I balk. First of all, Harry wasn't really happy or healthy when we met him, was he? He was supressed, half-starved, un-loved, &c. In some ways, I think one of the biggest themes of the series is about Harry slowly repairing and, in many way, constructing his psyche anew. He learns (sometimes slowly) to have friendship, to have a family, to have a home, to sacrifice himself for others and to allow others to do the same for him, to rely upon other people, to take their feelings into account -- all of the things he missed out on when he lived with the Dursleys. Really, the story *starts* with a broken Harry. It doesn't really make thematic sense to me, then, to have the story end where it started -- with a Harry that isn't whole. Now, one can argue that the damage to his psyche done by the Dursley is quite minimal given the circumstances, but this speaks directly to Harry's inborn (or perhaps *instilled* -- by his mother) resilience and inner strength. Give these qualities, I find it quite realistic and in-character that he will be capable of enjoying a reasonably happy, normal-ish life someday. Sure, there will be scars -- but everybody *has* scars. Perhaps the message might be that pain and suffering and old wounds are a part of life, but that doesn't preclude one from *living*. > To bring in a > similar story, he'd have to be like Frodo, broken by his > experience. LoTR is, of course, an excellent story, but I see no reason why JKR might want to rewrite it. She gets sued for plagiarism enough as it is. ^_~ Laura http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 9 18:46:16 2005 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:46:16 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130380 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Sue wrote: The second area I find interesting about this is DD and his decision to allow Snape to stay at school, knowing he attempted to kill another student. If DD believes (as he seems to) that what Sirius did was not commit an attempted murder but a prank that he believed Snape walked into with his eyes open, why did he protect Severus at that time? They were all in trouble, I am sure, but if DD knew for a fact that Snape intended to commit murder...that's a lot of forgiving. Potioncat: Perhaps I made my point too strongly. Let's say, Snape suspects Remus is a werewolf and sees a chance to confirm that. He feels confident that he can defend himself/subdue the werewolf if need be. Severus is after all, Merlin's gift to DADA. Just as Sirius doesn't seem to intend Severus' death in the prank, Severus doesn't intend to kill Remus. But, either Remus or Severus could have died. So if this is at all close to the actual event, DD would see two 16- year-old boys who had created a situation of grave danger: equally guilty and equaly innocent. And James is still a hero for going in after Severus. Potioncat Sue(hpfan) I see. No question here that Snape would have believed he could defend himself. It is possible that James knew Severus was over confident about his ability to protect himself from a werewolf, but because of his first hand experience thought he would probably get killed. How many people in school (or out for that matter) could manage against a werewolf? I sincerely hope we finally get some insight into what Snape was like in school in the next book. We have certainly seen him as a victim, what else is he? Sue, who is astounded at how fast this website moves! From jmnabers at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 16:49:07 2005 From: jmnabers at yahoo.com (jmnabers) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:49:07 -0000 Subject: Prediction Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130381 Is it possible to add a prediction to my list? If so: I predict that the new password to Dumbledore's office will be "Skiving Snackbox." From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 9 18:56:58 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:56:58 -0700 Subject: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler?) Message-ID: <410-22005649185658312@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130382 Hi, I'm not sure if the group has discussed this or not, because I was on Vacation when the pictures were released. But I was on TLC just looking around, and came across a picture of the HBP Deluxe cover. The web address is here for anyone who would like to look: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2005/05/hbpdeluxecover.html ~*S*~ ~*P*~ ~*O*~ ~*I*~ ~*L*~ ~*E*~ ~*R*~ ~*~*~*SPACE*~*~*~ The cover shows Harry and Dumbledore walking in a very heavily wooded forest. It seems clear, to me at least, that it's the forbidden forest, and that it points IMO to Aragog being the connection to COS. This picture in addition to Bloomsbury having spider webs on it's site, and the title "Spinner End" can all point to Aragog. Not that I proposing that he's the HBP or anything, just that he's part of the plot. Perhaps he knows who the HBP is? Do any of you agree, or maybe just think that I'm trying too hard to make things add up? Any other thoughts? Chancie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 9 19:04:38 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:04:38 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130383 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "madorganization" wrote: > JKR may be able to tell her story without having Harry die. That > would work. It would also work to have Harry die to show that > sacrifice is sometimes necessary for victory. I do think, however, > that even if Harry lives, it won't be the happy ending most children > are expecting. If JKR is to make this story believable and real, > then Harry will never be the same again. We won't ever see that > happy, healthy boy we met on the train to Hogwart's. To bring in a > similar story, he'd have to be like Frodo, broken by his > experience. Gerry The problem I have with these kind of theories is that people who support them don't look at the stories themselves. You cannot take the ending out of the stories and make a general point. The ending is good and fitting, because *it fits the story* not because this is what people supposedly need to hear. Harry is not Frodo. LoTR is not HP. Frodo starts out as a normal, happy hobbit, part of the shire who during the books gets more and more isolated because of his experiences. This trend starts at Weathertop where he is hit by the Nazgul sword and continues throughout the novels. That Frodo cannot settle in the Shire is completely logical. You can see it coming halfway through the story and even before. Sam, Pippin and Merry, who also have quite a bit of nasty experiences can fit in though. Not in the same way as before they went, they changed a great deal. But they are actually better for it. Harry starts out completely isolated, and as Laura pointed out, what he learns in the story is connecting, healing himself. Now if JKR would go for the Frodo ending, she would need to make Harry disconnect himself from his friends and the WW pretty quickly to make it believable. I don't think it likely though. In OoP he was at his most disconnected, had the terrible experience of Sirus dying, and in what way the book ends: In him connecting with Luna, both sharing the experience of having a loved on die. To paraphrase Laura: Lord of the Rings is already written, just as Narnia, Hamlet or the bible and I really do not think JKR needs to imitate others to make a believable ending to the story. Gerry From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 9 20:15:03 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:15:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > Sue(hpfan) > > I see. No question here that Snape would have believed he could > defend himself. Pippin: Then why is he so adamant that the joke would have "resulted in my death", and why does he say that James only saved him to help out his friends? (Much the same rationale that Harry gives for saving Peter.) Adult Snape clearly regards Lupin as very dangerous. He ties up Lupin, not the proven murderer Sirius. I think that the "my memory is as good as it ever was" has to do with Snape's career as a Death Eater... I don't think he spent his time conjuring "Voldy Lives" badges and passing out leaflets. For my money, Snape is in no position to talk about who's capable of murder. Pippin From k.coble at comcast.net Thu Jun 9 20:51:36 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:51:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5fe5a3e2657c2d2fd0bff1b90a35cbcb@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130385 On Jun 9, 2005, at 12:10 PM, madorganization wrote: > > Alisha: > Wow, that really got my defenses up, so I'll try to keep calm about > this.? I never said that happy endings made the difference between > fiction and literature.? I said that literature tells us what we > need to hear as opposed to what we want to hear.? K: I don't know that I agree on this point. I don't think that "literature" always has to serve some artificially ennobled calling, like making us Aware Of The Plight Of Others. I think that is an artificial construct papered together by universities and Serious Authors. To my way of thinking, books are like trains; they are there to take the reader on a journey. Sometimes you want to get on the train to go to a fun place, like the shore. Other times you may want to get on to go to visit an elderly aunt or fulfill a court date in another town. One train isn't better than the other. They both serve a purpose. My hope for this lifetime is to see the false snobbery about Literature vs. Novels abolished. Not every damn book has to be Theodore Dreiser, and not every book that isn't about Man's Inhumanity To Man is trash. > Sometimes we need > to hear that Elizabeth Bennet, for all her poor upbringing and > uncouth family, wins the heart of Darcy and goes on to do great and > noble things with her new position.? Sometimes we need to know that > good people have good things happen to them. K : And sometimes we are adults who can figure out what we need on our own, without being preached at by an Author Who Knows Better. So, we put down the electric bill and the phone bill and turn off the news of the latest explosions and pick up a book to take the train to the seaside for twenty minutes or so. [This is my problem with Oprah's book club. Every book is about someone being raped or killed or dying of AIDS. Now she's abandoned all pretense and embraced Faulkner. Oprah may have an easy enough life to routinely depress herself when she reads. I do not.] > ? And sometimes it's > true, that does happen.? However, a happy ending does not > necessarily make a good ending. K: Is this the castor oil school of reading? "The boy dies, but it's GOOD for you, so read it and heal!!!!" I'd compare this case to _The Sisterhood Of The Travelling Pants_. Both are books with young people, and both deal honestly and upfront with death. Both books end happily, even though there is much grieving along the way. I don't see why this is a bad thing. > ? Harry Potter's story is a > distinctly moral story (not religious, not allegorical, just > moral).? Therefore it is necessary that Good triumph over Evil in > the end.? It is not, however, necessary that Harry lives and > Voldemort dies.? K: It may not be necessary for the structure of the story, but I think it is necessary for the theme of the story, as I've mentioned previously. These are stories about maturity and ad hoc families. They are not stories about Christology, and Harry Potter is NOT Sydney Carton. > Think of Hamlet (depressing, I know).? Hamlet > doesn't survive the story, but he takes down his unscrupulous mother > and his villainous uncle before he goes.? K: Hamlet is a different story altogether. It is a tragedy that is clearly played that way from beginning to end. It is a populist play designed to offer the audience the Schadenfreude of seeing that the Royals in the Palace are even more snafu'd then they are. When you were living in the dirt and crossing rivers of urine to buy spoiled meat, this kind of play had an odd sense of feelgood about it. You went in _knowing_ that everyone was toast. Harry Potter is not structured this way at all. > That's what's important.? > JKR may be able to tell her story without having Harry die.? That > would work.? It would also work to have Harry die to show that > sacrifice is sometimes necessary for victory.? K: I think she shows that in numerous ways, but also shows the hero still standing for a purpose. > I do think, however, > that even if Harry lives, it won't be the happy ending most children > are expecting.? If JKR is to make this story believable and real, > then Harry will never be the same again.? We won't ever see that > happy, healthy boy we met on the train to Hogwart's. K: What books are you reading? On that first train to Hogwart's, Harry was newly happy, and not all that healthy. He was undernourished and maladjusted. Dumbledore even comments on it later. Unlike Frodo, who lived for many decades in the somnolent peace of the Shire, Harry had a rough go from the beginning. Unlike Frodo, who lazed around with his friends for months before starting on his journey, Harry is thrown right in. Frodo is an allegorical character who embodies the lost hopes of all the young men who left Britain to fight a war they didn't understand against a tyrant they feared. They came back to an island that had been despoiled by the tentacles of that war and realized that the realm for which they watched their friends die would never return. That's the story Tolkein wrote from his own experiences, viewed through the lens of his Catholicsm; a religion that celebrates the sacrifice of Christ. As I've opined previously, Rowling is writing phase 2 of what Tolkein wrote. She grew up in that Britain, on whose empire the sun now routinely sets. Think of the Harry Potter novels not as twins to the Tolkein works but as a protracted playing out of the Cleansing of the Shire. Britain's problems are no longer with Mordor (Germany), but with its own outmoded class system. The snobby Purebloods are Sharkey, and the Halfbloods, Muggleborns, etc. are the Hobbits. So many people seem to be caught up in the Campbellized version of the Hero's Journey that I think they will be disappointed if Harry _doesn't_ end up paying some grave psychic price and spending his twilight years in a dodgy tower block with a needle and cookspoon. > ? To bring in a > similar story, he'd have to be like Frodo, broken by his > experience.? > > -Alisha > > " 'But.' said Sam, and tears started in his eyes, 'I thought you > were going to enjoy the Shire, too, for years and years, after all > you have done.' > 'So I thought too, once. But I have been deeply hurt, Sam. I tried > to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must > often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give > them up, lose them, so that others may keep them.'" > > J.R.R. Tolkien > Return of the King > > K: As an aside, I think that there can be a small allegory made to the Hobbits thusly: Sam=Harry Merry=Hermione Pippin=Ron Frodo=Dumbledore That is why I have always thought that Dumbledore will take the ship to the Grayhavens. Er, die, I mean. Katherine, who is of the Neil Stephenson/Stephen King school of Fictional Equivalences. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From llamadroid at hotmail.com Thu Jun 9 20:45:27 2005 From: llamadroid at hotmail.com (Liane) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:45:27 -0000 Subject: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler?) In-Reply-To: <410-22005649185658312@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130386 Chancie wrote: S P O I L E R (SNIPPED) > The cover shows Harry and Dumbledore walking in a very heavily > wooded forest. It seems clear, to me at least, that it's the > forbidden forest, and that it points IMO to Aragog being the > connection to COS. (MORE SNIPS!) > When I fisrt saw the cover I had the same thoughts as you, forest = forbidden forest, obviously! But then I looked at it a bit harder and noticed Harry and Dumbledore seem to be standing by a broken wooden fence. So maybe this isn't the forbidden forest after all. (It always seemed odd to me that Harry would be at Hogwarts for Chapter two anyway, isn't that a little early in the book?) What if it's Godrics Hollow, which has been allowed to get very overgrown since the night of the attack? Of course this is JMHO! We shall have to wait and see. What do you think? Be kind to this long time lurker with only one other post to my name! Liane From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 9 19:54:21 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:54:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler?) In-Reply-To: <410-22005649185658312@earthlink.net> References: <410-22005649185658312@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42A89E6D.7060909@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130387 Chancie wrote: >Hi, I'm not sure if the group has discussed this or not, because I >was on Vacation when the pictures were released. But I was on >TLC just looking around, and came across a picture of the HBP >Deluxe cover. The web address is here for anyone who would like to look: >http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2005/05/hbpdeluxecover.html > > >~*S*~ >~*P*~ >~*O*~ >~*I*~ >~*L*~ >~*E*~ >~*R*~ > >~*~*~*SPACE*~*~*~ > >The cover shows Harry and Dumbledore walking in a very heavily >wooded forest. It seems clear, to me at least, that it's the >forbidden forest, and that it points IMO to Aragog being the >connection to COS. This picture in addition to Bloomsbury >having spider webs on it's site, and the title "Spinner End" >can all point to Aragog. Not that I proposing that he's >the HBP or anything, just that he's part of the plot. Perhaps >he knows who the HBP is? Do any of you agree, or maybe just >think that I'm trying too hard to make things add up? >Any other thoughts? > > heather adds: I'm still not convinced on Aragog. I mean, he might make an appearance. But I doubt he's a major element to the story. As for being the link to book 2 -- didn't JKR say she took out all references to the plot she moved to this book? There is something she said Harry will learn more about that he first discovered in COS... I suppose that could have to do with Aragog... but what could Aragog know? He came to Britain as a baby, I don't think he's ever known anything except Hagrid and the forbidden forest. Besides which, the "Spinners End" chapter is #2 -- far too early for Harry to be in the forest looking for spiders. I prefer the idea that it's a house, and love the idea that Harry is having his first ever birthday party there. As for what they could be doing in the forbidden forest... besides Aragog, there are also centaurs, and thestrals, and Grawp, not to mention unicorns. Any one of those might somehow be useful to the tale. I'm more intrigued with this cover, by the fact that Dumbledore himself is out with Harry. How often have we actually seen Dumbledore 'out and about' doing things? His actions are mostly behind-the-scenes, or reactive, or limited to his office. We know he does a whole lot, but we are not privy to most of it. He gives Harry some cryptic clues then sends him off to do some task... or he has a heartfelt talk with him... but actually going out with him to do stuff? I think the closest we've had to that is the MoM, and even then he didn't go *with* him per se, but showed up with the Order in order to rescue him. heather the buzzard From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 21:19:35 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:19:35 -0000 Subject: GoF Sphinx's riddle: Did Harry get it wrong? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130388 (I have too much time on my hands.) Howdy All, I'm just finishing up the rereading of GoF in prep for HBP, and I was bumped out again by Harry's answer to the Sphinx's riddle within the maze of the 3rd task of the Triwizard Tourney. The Sphinx's Riddle: "First think of the person who lives in disguise, Who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies, Next tell me what's always the last thing to mend, The middle of middle and end of the end? And finally give me the sound often heard, During the search for a hard-to-find word. Now string them together, and answer me this, Which creature would you be unwilling to kiss?" Harry's answer was a "spider," as such: A person who lives in disguise: spy last thing to mend: "D" search for a hard to find word: er A creature you're unwilling to kiss: spider As you can see, as in British-style (and NYer-style) cryptic crosswords, spelling doesn't matter and "spy" can become "spi"-der. However, what if Harry got it wrong? Maybe Crouch!Moody Confounded the Sphinx to let Harry pass. I submit, the real answer is thus: "First think of the person who lives in disguise, Who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies," A Death Eater, or a "DE." "Next tell me what's always the last thing to mend, The middle of middle and end of the end?" The last word on the first line: "mend" "And finally give me the sound often heard, During the search for a hard-to-find word." Harry got this part right: "-er." Now string them together, and answer me this, Which creature would you be unwilling to kiss?" "DE-mend-er" = dementor. I think Harry got the riddle wrong, and Crouch!Moody must've helped him out so that the Sphinx didn't attack. Anybody else? TK -- TigerPatronus From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 21:12:39 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:12:39 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130389 >>Betsy Hp: >Then show me. Show me examples of detailed instructions in magical lessons that would back up the idea that Snape didn't give Harry full instruction in Occlumency.< >>Nora: >There isn't, in part because from my perspective, Occlumency is exceptional. It boils down yet again to our state vs. action distinction. We've never seen *anything else* where the object is not so much to do Thing X, a clearly defined action, as to be in a state where one's mind cannot be penetrated.< Betsy Hp: You knew I was going to bring up resisting the Imperius Curse, right? Because not only is it *exactly* resisting the penetration of your mind or will (without wand or words), but Snape even tells us (and Harry) that Occlumency calls on similar skills. And I can't resist a certain ironic chuckle at you raising an exceptionalism argument. Because I have to differ. There's not a single aspect of Occlumency, as described in the books that seems outside of the construct of magic JKR has already given us. >>Nora: >It's because of that distinction that I simply cannot agree with the casual roping together of all these mental disciplines into one boat. The closest thing is the Imperius resistance, where we get a certain internal description (and Harry has something of a knack for it). I've provided a reading/explanation of those scenes before based on the best analogous situations I can think of.< Betsy Hp: Yep, I knew you knew I'd raise it . And we'll have to agree to disagree I think. *All* of JKR's magic has the common link of the imagination. If you believe strongly enough, you can make it so. Yes, the children start with focus words, etc. But the books are filled with magic that required no words and no wand. And the examples start with the very first book. I imagine that eventually most of the students get to a level where the word isn't necessary. A few may even move beyond needing their wands (as Harry has been hinted at accomplishing). >>Nora: >Magic in JKR's world has funky rules, but the way that Occlumency is presented is pointedly *not* as the kind of "wave your wand and do this" magic that almost everything else is (and we must follow the story to get), but as something almost mundane.< Betsy Hp: And yet, within JKR's world we've seen *tons* of examples of magic without wands and words. The first magic we witness is wandless and wordless (the disappearing glass). I would also point out how very mundane the magic actually is. Wizards and witches don't need to reach a certain spiritual level in order to access their powers. Their magic is as much a part of them as their fingers and toes. And they use their magic in much the same way, as a simple tool rather than a conduit to another dimension or plane. The children have magic; they learn to use it. And if you don't have magic, no matter what sort of mental gymnastics you put yourself through, you will never have magic (hence the tragedy of Filch). >>Alla: >My argument is that we have NOT seen any kind of lessons which could be analogised to Occlumency yet.< Betsy Hp: And my reply is that you're ignoring canon when you make such arguments. No, there's nothing that matches *perfectly*, but there's plenty that have similar requirements, as I've pointed out. >>Nora: >You can do a lot of things with mind and body together that strike people as magical. :) Yes, I know it's not the same--but I'm not convinced that these functional principles that work for all humans wouldn't also apply to the exercise of a mental state, which is what Occlumency seems to be.< >>Alla: >The cars in our world do NOT fly, period, same with flying on the brooms, I think :-), BUT as Nora showed in her previous posts, there are mental relaxation techniques in muggle world which COULD be looked at as similar to Occlumency.< Betsy Hp: Mmm. I just don't buy it. It's like when your friends get *way* too fired up about Star Wars and try and move things with their minds. It ain't going to happen. Whatever mental discipline techniques you practice in the real world, you're not going to be able to break into someone elses mind and plant manipulative visions. And, taking it a step further, you're not going to learn how to block those visions. Because it isn't real. It's a construct of JKR's imagination to which she's applied certain rules and consistencies. Now, you can argue that with this particular form of magic, JKR has broken away from her construct. (I'd disagree, but you can argue it.) And you can argue that her construct makes no sense within the real world. But to argue that JKR is somehow showing us how to actually use Occlumency if only Snape would be a little clearer in his instructions.... I just don't buy it. >>Nora: >If you want to keep ignoring the profound differences, then go right ahead. New canon may settle our arguments. It's still picking and choosing what parts of human psychology you want to apply.< Betsy Hp: Wait, what am I ignoring again? Because if Dumbledore takes over teaching Occlumency to Harry and he says, "Right, now tell me, what's the sound of one hand clapping?" I will be shocked, to say the least. I'm not "picking and choosing what parts of human psychology" to apply. JKR has already done that for us. Wizards and witches can overcome a clinical depression by thinking of one happy thought and using the proper incantation. It flies in the face of our understanding of human psychology, but that's magic. >>Betsy Hp, who googled A.S. Byatt and isn't quite sure how she applies< >>Nora: >Google a little harder. She wrote a rather snide essay about the whole phenomenon, and what she really doesn't like is the lack of the numinous in HP. The magic is 'ersatz', for her.< >>[Wilson, Bruce]: >I found the essay. Although she has some points, she lost me when she said that the Wood is 'dangerous only because [Rowling] says it is.' The books clearly show the dangers of the Wood and the creatures that live there. I wouldn't want Byatt or anyone else to say that she likes the books when she does not, but her essay misses the point. Rowling is not trying to write the same sort of fantasy that LeGuin was; comparing the two is 'apples and oranges.'< Betsy Hp: Well thank goodness Rowling doesn't imitate LeGuin, whose interesting plots are peopled with colorless characters, IMO. (But I'm not a huge LeGuin fan.) It's the characters that make the Harry Potter series, for me anyway, and it's their interactions with each other that I find so fascinating. Betsy Hp From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 21:23:37 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:23:37 -0000 Subject: Teaching Styles and Motivation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130390 >>Betsy Hp: >I think Snape gave Harry an excuse, actually. Harry didn't want to stop the dreams and Snape provided a good scapegoat for not doing the work. Because I think Harry *did* hear what Snape was telling him, he just chose not to believe him.< >>Bookworm: >Definitely. The whole situation has several conflicting aspects that makes analysis of it difficult: Harry's motivation, Lupin and Snape's teaching styles, and Harry's feeling towards each of the professors. The Occlumency lessons were the worst possible combination of those aspects.< Betsy Hp: Which just goes to show JKR knows how to make things interesting. :) Seriously, I'm of mixed minds as to how I'd like to see Occlumency handled in the next book (assuming it *will* be handled). On the one hand, it'd be nice to see another teacher tackle the subject (Dumbledore and possibly Lupin seem the only options at the moment), just to see what they do differently from Snape. On the other hand, it'd be interesting to see how a motivated Harry (which I assume he will be) reacts to Snape's current methods. >>Madam M: >In this way learning magic seems less a conventional intellectual discipline and more akin to music: you practice again and again so that, in concert, you don't have to think about which note comes next. Or athletics: baseball players practice, but no one ever hit a home run by *thinking* about when to swing the bat. So the "hit'em over and over" technique, which both Lupin and Snape use, seems to be an appropriate one for teaching defensive magic. And it wasn't completely unsuccessful in Snape's case; Harry did try to fight Snape out of his mind, and managed a couple of partial successes. But the lessons stopped before he had progressed far enough.< Betsy Hp: Fake!Moody used the hit the kid again and again technique as well. Harry seemed to use that method in his DA classes as well. There were a lot of duels going on, IIRC. I imagine whatever new Occlumency teacher Harry has, they'll rely on the same technique. Betsy Hp From inkling108 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 21:25:00 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:25:00 -0000 Subject: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler?) In-Reply-To: <42A89E6D.7060909@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130391 S P O I L E R > > heather wrote: > > I'm more intrigued with this cover, by the fact that Dumbledore himself > is out with Harry. How often have we actually seen Dumbledore 'out and > about' doing things? His actions are mostly behind-the-scenes, or > reactive, or limited to his office. We know he does a whole lot, but we > are not privy to most of it. He gives Harry some cryptic clues then > sends him off to do some task... or he has a heartfelt talk with him... > but actually going out with him to do stuff? I think the closest we've > had to that is the MoM, and even then he didn't go *with* him per se, > but showed up with the Order in order to rescue him. Good point. I was just looking at the two US covers (standard and deluxe) and as near as I can tell, Dumbledore and Harry are wearing the same flowing robes in both, so it's possible that these covers show two different scenes from the same chapter. Also, I never noticed this before, but Harry is wearing a kind of outfit I've never seen in any Grand Pre illustration before. It's not a Hogwarts robe, it's not muggle style casual wear, it looks like something from ancient times. Hmmm. Inkling From happydogue at aol.com Thu Jun 9 21:24:15 2005 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:24:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8C73B50B904C174-AB0-532B@mblk-r42.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130392 I don't think it is a fence. It looks like a broken limb across a path or in the woods in general. The branch seems to get wider at the end and fences boards are the same with all the way across. JMM -----Original Message----- From: Liane To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:45:27 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler?) Chancie wrote: S P O I L E R (SNIPPED) > The cover shows Harry and Dumbledore walking in a very heavily > wooded forest. It seems clear, to me at least, that it's the > forbidden forest, and that it points IMO to Aragog being the > connection to COS. (MORE SNIPS!) > When I fisrt saw the cover I had the same thoughts as you, forest = forbidden forest, obviously! But then I looked at it a bit harder and noticed Harry and Dumbledore seem to be standing by a broken wooden fence. So maybe this isn't the forbidden forest after all. (It always seemed odd to me that Harry would be at Hogwarts for Chapter two anyway, isn't that a little early in the book?) What if it's Godrics Hollow, which has been allowed to get very overgrown since the night of the attack? Of course this is JMHO! We shall have to wait and see. What do you think? Be kind to this long time lurker with only one other post to my name! Liane Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 9 21:41:17 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:41:17 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "madorganization" wrote: Alisha: > However she (JKR) has said over and over again that she is > writing these books for herself, not for any of her readers. She > also said that she never expected the books to be so popular. So, > while the Harry Potter series may end up being immensely popular (no > matter how much I love it, I don't think it will ever be > a "classic"), JKR is /not/ writing a classic story. She's writing > her story, and if Harry (or Ron or Hermione) has to die in order > for her artistic and literary conscience to be pacified, then he > will. Geoff: One of my dictionaries has, among its definitions of "classic", the following: Adjective (1) judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality Noun (1) a work of art of established value (2) a thing recognised to be an excellent example of its kind. My own personal view is that the Harry Potter books fit those definitions. There is no law which states that popular fiction cannot be classic. Much of Dickens' work was published as magazine material to begin with yet remains judged as being of the highest quality. I am not necessarily drawn by a story that is labelled classic but by a story which, once I have read it, I feel I want to read it again (and possibly again and again...). One of the great attractions to me about JKR's work is that, like Tolkien, it is unique as a genre in its blending of the real world with the Wizarding World and its ability to make us see our real selves ? with our lack of magical ability ? as almost deprived within the context of the book. And, like "The Lord of the Rings", deep down at its heart, it draws on the Christian - and common sense? - background of British culture without brandishing it in our faces. I make no bones about the fact that I dearly want to see Harry live. There are few characters in literature to whom I have felt such rapport as Harry because, as I have said in previous posts, I see myself behaving in similar ways as a teenager growing up into the adult world and enduring the setbacks, uncertainties, the highs and the lows of that particular time of our lives. I agree with what many folk have said in that he has moved from being a withdrawn, dysfunctional boy of 11 suddenly thrust into the spotlight and catapulted into a new world, to someone who has been forced to develop coping and people skills. Yes, he doesn't always listen to advice, he thinks on his feet and makes the wrong decisions; but he stands by his friends, he sees which side is right and he tries to use his powers and knowledge to shape the world he lives in rather than sitting back and letting Voldemort make all the play. In that, he is an everyman for us all to recognise. I hope Jo Rowling does let her hero live and come out of the experience in one piece. Not a "happily ever after" scenario; very few of us in real life do that. We all come out of life like a well- used car with dented bumpers and scratched wings! Then will he retain classic status and give encouragement to those folk who do not feel that they are among the movers and shakers but who would like to feel that they have left the world a little better because they passed that way. In the film version of "The Lord of the Rings", Galadriel says to Frodo: "Even the smallest person can change the course of the future" and that should be an encouragement to all those of us who are "Harrys" at heart. From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 9 21:58:51 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:58:51 -0000 Subject: GoF Sphinx's riddle: Did Harry get it wrong? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" wrote: > (I have too much time on my hands.) > > Howdy All, > > I'm just finishing up the rereading of GoF in prep for HBP, and I was > bumped out again by Harry's answer to the Sphinx's riddle within the > maze of the 3rd task of the Triwizard Tourney. > > The Sphinx's Riddle: > "First think of the person who lives in disguise, > Who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies, > Next tell me what's always the last thing to mend, > The middle of middle and end of the end? > And finally give me the sound often heard, > During the search for a hard-to-find word. > Now string them together, and answer me this, > Which creature would you be unwilling to kiss?" > > Harry's answer was a "spider," as such: > A person who lives in disguise: spy > last thing to mend: "D" > search for a hard to find word: er > A creature you're unwilling to kiss: spider > > As you can see, as in British-style (and NYer-style) cryptic > crosswords, spelling doesn't matter and "spy" can become "spi"- der. > > However, what if Harry got it wrong? Maybe Crouch!Moody Confounded > the Sphinx to let Harry pass. I submit, the real answer is thus: > > "First think of the person who lives in disguise, > Who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies," > > A Death Eater, or a "DE." > > "Next tell me what's always the last thing to mend, > The middle of middle and end of the end?" > > The last word on the first line: "mend" > > "And finally give me the sound often heard, > During the search for a hard-to-find word." > > Harry got this part right: "-er." > > Now string them together, and answer me this, > Which creature would you be unwilling to kiss?" > > "DE-mend-er" = dementor. > > I think Harry got the riddle wrong, and Crouch!Moody must've helped > him out so that the Sphinx didn't attack. > > Anybody else? > > TK -- TigerPatronus I really love this - it is well thought out and a great idea - and I don't want to rain on it - but the way I say it, dementor doesn't sound much like demender. I'm British (if that helps) and I pronounce the t like the t in tea. It's also, now I try, really hard to describe the difference! JMO, JLV (whose pal Katie can't understand why Americans call her Kay-dee not Kay-Tee!) From llamadroid at hotmail.com Thu Jun 9 21:58:33 2005 From: llamadroid at hotmail.com (Liane) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:58:33 -0000 Subject: Book Titles (LONG) (Was: Re: HBP - who was the royal?) In-Reply-To: <42A8576B.6080208@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130396 heather the buzzard wrote: (major snippage) > The Goblet of Fire, for instance, was not > actually the focal point of its book. It was relaly just a small > part of the tale. The Triwizard Tournament was the main element > of the story, and the book was almost called that, but GoF had > more dramatic punch. > > The HBP might, therefore, only be a minor part of the plot. > Integral, but not momentous, if you would. Please bear with me on this (I'm a long time lurker!) but your point got me thinking. We are all wondering who (or what) the Half-Blood Prince is, but I think that it is just not important. (I will insert a big IMO now, to save me adding it after every line!) Let me explain... BOOK 1 - PS/SS If we had been doing analysis of the title before the book came out, a quick search on google would have told us what it was, since the PS/SS was once thought to be a real object. The importance of the it lies in what happens if Voldemort gets his hands on it and NOT what the object itself is. BOOK 2 - CoS Ok, so the CoS was important for this book, I don't deny it, but would anyone have guessed before the release of the book what it was? It's not important that it was a chamber hidden beneath a girls bathroom with a whopping great snake in it, but if it wasn't for the chamber we wouldn't have learnt about Aragog, Dobby or Lucious. Hagrid wouldn't have had his name cleared, Lockhart wouldn't have caught his own memory charm, and we wouldn't have learnt about the true connection between Harry and Voldemort. It is the secrets that we learn, and not the chamber which is important. BOOK 3 - PoA This is the only other book with a person in the title, and so maybe the most information about the HBP can be found here. We find out about Sirius Black, a mad escaped murderer on page 18 (uk childrens edition) when he is mentioned on the news. We find out that Sirius was a Prisoner from Azkaban on page 33, so what about the rest of the book?!!! What is important is not that Sirius was a PoA, but that he is Harry's Godfather, and that it is Harry that clears his name, which leads to Harry producing his first real Patronus, and so saving his own life! BOOK 4 - GoF As Heather said (which caused this whole theory!) the Goblet is not important, but rather it is the object that gets Harry into the TWT, and leads eventually to the final duel with Harry and Voldy. Book 5 - OOTP We learn about the Order on page 65 (uk childrens ed) when Hermoine says "It's a secret society... It's the people who fought against You-Know-Who last time." What I think the order represents for Harry is protection, but it also reminds us that he is still a child, not being old enough to join the Order. And of course it is when the Order come to the childrens rescue in the DOM that Sirius falls through the veil (I didn't say he's dead, I'm still hoping we will see him again, but I'm also prepared for a huge disappointment there!) So, what about the Half-Blood Prince? I don't know who he is, none of us do. I'm not totally sure that its a person and not a pub somewhere, but looking at the previous titles, i'm sure that whoever the HBP is, the important thing will be the influence that it has on Harry's life. I'm sure that with the PoA we could not have guessed beforehand that Sirius was his Godfather, even with his brief mention in PS/SS (flying motorcycle) But saying all this, it's still fun to guess! Hope this wasn't too much of a ramble! Liane x From shalimar07 at aol.com Thu Jun 9 17:37:08 2005 From: shalimar07 at aol.com (mumweasley7) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:37:08 -0000 Subject: TMR's name, mother (was Re: GOF - Riddle question) In-Reply-To: <42A7B5B6.4070007@yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130397 > Michelle: > Yup, and he was named for his father and grandfather (the > Marvolo part; I expect that was his wizard grandfather). Has anyone ever wonder why Tom's mother named her son after the father and grandfather who abandoned her because she was a witch? Did she still love her husband? Or could she see so far into the future she knew she'd be revenged? Shalimar From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Jun 9 18:19:28 2005 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (Jazmyn Concolor) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:19:28 -0700 Subject: Madam Hooch: Yellow Eyes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A88830.1000808@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130398 pot_of_harry wrote: >Why is Madam Hooche's eyes yellow? >I can't remember any other witch or wizard having different >coloured eyes from the usual, except for maybe LV. >Rowling also describes them as hawk like. >I know she doesn't play a major role in the books, but I am >curious to know if anyone has any theories? Maybe she tried to change into a hawk or eagle and it went badly and left her with yellow eyes? Maybe there was an owl feather in her polyjuice potion? Maybe she had a spell backfire on her? Maybe it's contact lenses. Maybe one of her parents was part pooka? Maybe they are not as yellow as we think and just an off shade of brown? Maybe she's Tonk's mother remarried with a new name and she can change her looks and just decided to stop with yellow eyes and not bother changing anymore? Maybe Fawkes is her brother and she's a Phoenix changed into a human? Maybe she smoked bad pipe weed. (Had some bad hooch there, Madam Hooch?) We may never know for sure, but I am sure we will see a lot of theories pop up and one or two fanfics involving this. Jazmyn From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jun 10 00:29:56 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:29:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Sphinx's riddle: Did Harry get it wrong? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130399 In a message dated 6/9/2005 4:21:20 PM Central Standard Time, tigerpatronus at yahoo.com writes: "First think of the person who lives in disguise, Who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies," A Death Eater, or a "DE." "Next tell me what's always the last thing to mend, The middle of middle and end of the end?" The last word on the first line: "mend" "And finally give me the sound often heard, During the search for a hard-to-find word." Harry got this part right: "-er." I think Spider was correct First off the WW doesn't refer to Death Eaters as D.E.s. That's a fandom thing. So I can';t see the Sphinx (or Harry) coming up with the reference as part of a rhyme . Secondly the second line of this couplet makes no sense if the answer is actually the last word of the 1st line. Nah I think that Harry got it right the 1st time. Crouch Jr. might have been removing obstacles from Harry's path but IMO the things that Harry did confront, he managed to defeat on his own. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 00:38:22 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:38:22 -0000 Subject: Character (was: Re: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130400 > lealess: > > I think I see what you are saying, but I am still confused. Neri: Just for the record, I can only guess what JKR means or what DD thinks. I'm just saying that whenever we make an essentialist/existentialist statement it is useful to be very clear from who's POV we are talking. Mixing different POVs in the same statement is like mixing arguments from within the story and from outside it. It's likely to come out nonsensical, like Dr. Murray's suggestion that DD didn't try to kill Voldy in the MoM because he knew there are two more books to go. > lealess: Taking > Dumbledore as an example of point of view, if he sees Kreacher as the > creature the wizards made, do you think Dmbledore still excuses him > completely for the choice Kreacher made? Neri: >From DD's POV he certainly has the right to make his own choice to excuse Kreacher completely. Did he? I'm not sure it's so complete. In any case, from Kreacher's POV I don't think it's relevant to his choice. If you make a choice to wrong somebody, can you justify it by saying "but that's ok because he's a very forgiving person and I believe he'll excuse me completely"? (not to mention that DD wasn't the main person that Kreacher's choice had wronged). > lealess: Dumbledore also hoped Snape > would overcome his hatred, and I would speculate hoped that Lupin > would control his lycanthropy. Why would he have set either on their > paths if he had an inkling of what the outcome was sure to be? > Neri: I don't know if DD simply made honest mistakes in assessing Lupin's and Snape ability to make the right choices. This is perhaps the greatest mystery regarding DD's character: what kind of philosophy is he following? Some would argue (and I can see their point) that DD breaks the distinction between the different POVs because he's a character but he's also JKR's prophet within the plot, so maybe he gets hints from Her how he should act. This would be breaking the rules, but as we all know DD is not very fussy about rule breaking . Myself, I prefer to think that DD believes a person can make the right choice only if you give him real freedom to make this choice, and that's why he's so trusting. > lealess: > Dumbledore seems the sort to see good in anyone, even Tom Riddle, who > he addresses as a person and not a monster of destiny. Neri: I agree. I don't think DD sees any good in Tom today, but he sees the good that Tom could have been if he'd chosen differently, and he's still treating him as a person with free will, rather than as a mindless monster. > lealess: I am not sure > he sees others in terms of absolute character, but rather as complex > individuals with some inate character traits or patterns of behavior, > capable of making choices independent of those traits or patterns. Neri: Yes. I think DD believes that if people can choose between good and evil, it means they can change themselves, and thus make themselves good or bad. Since I have practically zero background in philosophy I don't know where would this place DD relative to the formal definitions of essentialism, existentialism or any other ism. But I think it is possible to believe that a certain person is "in essence" a good person or a bad person, and still believe that this person has the ability to change his own essence by changing his choice. I don't think this is a contradiction of terms, but an educated philosopher might be horrified. > lealess: > Dumbledore also makes mistakes in his estimation of the choices people will make, as noted above and up to keeping Harry in the dark in OotP. (If he is seeing everyone in absolute terms, then he is not doing a very good job of it. In terms of consequences for choices, he does seem fatalistic, I'll grant.) Neri: DD is certainly full of apparent contradictions, maybe even more so than Snape. Personally I prefer to think that he's not a fatalist, but he believes that he must give other people the full freedom to make their choices, which frequently makes him appear fatalistic. And since he really gives people a completely free choice, they sometimes surprise him and sometimes disappoint him. Otherwise it wouldn't be *free* choice. I like to think that DD is similar to Captain Cordelia Naismith from the books of Lois McMaster Bujold (recommended, BTW). When Koudelka accuses her "you trust beyond reason!" she answers "yes, that's how I get results beyond hope". > lealess: > Further, you are saying that characters cannot fall back on an > essentialistic excuse for their own behavior. Fair enough, but will > it even matter, in an essentialist world, if they question their > motives from their POV? They are bound to follow their natures, and > will end up following a certain path regardless, it seems, so wrapping their brain cells around choice is an exercise in futility. Neri: I don't think I want to get into this very deep philosophical question, but I'm pretty sure JKR believes that people do have free will, regardless of their brain cells. Her story doesn't have much to do with brain cells, and a lot to do with choices. JKR repeatedly shows us persons making choices that go against what should have been "their nature". Hagrid almost never misuses his physical power despite his wild giant blood. Dobby helps Harry despite the magic that enslaves all his species. Lupin acts kindly despite turning into a monster every month. Firenze saves Harry and joins DD despite the reclusive and fatalistic ways of centaurs. Harry saves people despite being an abused child. Snape changed sides despite being a DE. Sirius renounced the pureblood ideology despite growing up in a very pureblood family. James saved Snape and gave his life for his wife and child despite being a bully at 15. This list goes on and on. I guess you can say that they were all just following their *true*, hidden nature by making these choices, but this still sounds nonsensical to me. From JKR's POV they were indeed following the true nature she had set for them, but from the POV of each of these characters he had no way to find out what his true nature was, other than making the choice. Even the Sorting Hat couldn't tell Harry what his true nature was. > lealess: Following up my own questions about Snape and Lupin, two mysterious characters, does it follow that Lupin will always let someone down in a stressful situation, and Snape will always make extreme choices, and both are ever doomed to do so, based on character, regardless of whether they indulge in a moment of reflection beforehand? Neri: An estimation of Snape's essence is very difficult because we know so little about him, but I took the risk and published my full analysis of him only several days ago. This was my POV as a reader, but from Snape's POV he has the free will to change his choice, for the good or the bad, despite his nature. As for Lupin, I estimate him as a good person in essence, with some faults (like most people). But still, from Lupin's POV he has the free will to "fail" and choose wrong against his "essence" (otherwise it's not really free will). BTW, in the "meta-thinking" level Snape and Lupin always failing in the same way would have made them very predictable and boring characters. > lealess: > I can see that an author is allowed to write characters in a > deterministic/fatalistic way, of course, especially when the whole > story is plotted out in advance. I also appreciate that readers > can/have made their own essentialist determinations, as any discussion of Snape or Lupin will show. I am not convinced that we as readers, interacting with the text, should necessarily do that. But that is our choice ... or is it? > Neri: I think I fully agree with all the above 8-) Neri From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 10 01:07:33 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:07:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP Deluxe Cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A8E7D5.8090907@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130401 inkling108 wrote: > > >Good point. I was just looking at the two US covers (standard and >deluxe) and as near as I can tell, Dumbledore and Harry are wearing >the same flowing robes in both, so it's possible that these covers >show two different scenes from the same chapter. Also, I never >noticed this before, but Harry is wearing a kind of outfit I've >never seen in any Grand Pre illustration before. It's not a >Hogwarts robe, it's not muggle style casual wear, it looks like >something from ancient times. Hmmm. > > heather now: Hmm. I had also noticed Harry's outfit on the deluxe cover, though hadn't noticed anything with the Pensieve scene. *scuttles off to look at the pensieve cover* You know, that one looks like a regular dress-shirt collar to me. Nothing interesting. *scuttles off to look at the british/canadian covers, which she'll be getting* On the children's cover, it looks like Harry is just wearing a black long-sleeved shirt. It's hard to tell, you don't really see his front, but it doesn't look like robes and there's no collar at all. And of course the adult version is a book, no Harry at all. SIDE NOTE -- the book on that cover is "Advanced Potion Making". Ergo, I believe Harry DOES take Advanced Potions, and that's important somehow... Perhaps just as a reference to Harry's advancing state of magical training. Anyway, back to the Deluxe edition cover. My first guess was actually that it's his nightclothes, with wizard's robes thrown hastily over top. Not sure though. I also like the idea of that being a fence, though I'm unconvinced. Just have to wait and see... sigh... heather the buzzard (noticing also that Dumbledore is out-and-about with Harry on ALL the covers except for the book one, so that's something significant, especially after OOTP) From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 10 00:46:10 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:46:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Sphinx's riddle: Did Harry get it wrong? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A8E2D2.9090208@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130402 tigerpatronus wrote: >I'm just finishing up the rereading of GoF in prep for HBP, and I was >bumped out again by Harry's answer to the Sphinx's riddle within the >maze of the 3rd task of the Triwizard Tourney. > > >"Next tell me what's always the last thing to mend, >The middle of middle and end of the end?" > >The last word on the first line: "mend" > > >"DE-mend-er" = dementor. > >I think Harry got the riddle wrong, and Crouch!Moody must've helped >him out so that the Sphinx didn't attack. > > No way. That second couplet doesn't work for 'mend'. How does "mend" fit with "middle of middle" and "end of the end"? The answer has to be something that fits *all three* of those criteria. Your original assessment of Harry's own solution also only referenced "last thing to mend", when in fact it's all of those. There's also the already-mentioned problem that "DE" as short for death eaters just isn't used in the WW, and that "demender" does not sound like "dementor" close enough to be a 'good' riddle. Besides which, there hadn't been any Death Eaters at that point in time for 13 years (so far as anyone knew)... most people would remember them, but it'd hardly be a common term to employ in a riddle. The ONLY thing about this 'solution' that's better than the actual one is the last part, 'unwilling to kiss'. So yeah, it's too bad that it doesn't work for dementor heh. But the kicker is that the riddle was actually a clue for what was coming up next in the maze. What did he meet next? An enormous Acromantula. Spider, indeed. heather the buzzard From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 9 18:24:51 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:24:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rumours In-Reply-To: <20050609181009.79446.qmail@web32604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050609181009.79446.qmail@web32604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A88973.50805@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130403 Mira wrote: >Heather the buzzard, by 'cheap' I meant a bit obvious. >'The boy who lived' is an intriguing title and it >stimulates associations, so I wouldn't be surprised if >many other people came up with the same idea >independently. But why should we take it to refer >automatically to Harry? Why couldn't it refer to >Voldemort instead? > > Oh I agree, and I believe I said so in my original post. It could refer to anybody, though Harry would be the obvious thing we're intended to think, even as a 'red herring', if that title were used. I was just saying that I, myself, would enjoy the parallelism of the boy who lived becoming the man who died, but there are many possibilities of course. heather the buzzard From kking0731 at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 03:44:13 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:44:13 -0000 Subject: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler?) In-Reply-To: <410-22005649185658312@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130404 Chancie snipped: The cover shows Harry and Dumbledore walking in a very heavily wooded forest. It seems clear, to me at least, that it's the forbidden forest, and that it points IMO to Aragog being the connection to COS. This picture in addition to Bloomsbury having spider webs on it's site, and the title "Spinner End" can all point to Aragog. Snow: My first response to the Deluxe cover of HBP, post 128791, was that it was Godric's Hollow and that it had been allowed to be protected by over growing its remains into a forest possibly the Forbidden Forest. Since then I have been (privately) attempting to prove the point through a pattern that exists in past book chapters. Let me explain. If this cover represents the Forbidden Forest and we know that the second chapter of HBP is Spinners End then, can we assume that Spinner represents Aragog? (This is the only glitch I see in the theory so far anyway) If you believe that Aragog (that JKR said we will see again) has something to do with Spinners End, then continue to the proposed format of events. I started with all of the books' second chapters to see what each of these chapters has told us thus far: Book one chapter two- Harry spoke to a snake, although he didn't realize how he was able to until much, much later. Harry also made the glass disappear without the aid of a wand, which has yet to be sufficiently explained, although he has performed this type of magic since; most recently in the MOM when he asked the revolving room "Where's the exit" and it immediately complied. Book two chapter two- Harry is told by Dobby of the fact that Riddle is Voldemort "not he-who-must-not-be-named-sir" but again Harry doesn't realize what he was being told until much later in the book. (Side note: He-who-must-not-be-named or Voldemort is a separate being from Riddle in Dobby's huge eyes, definite distinction) Book three chapter two- Harry is introduced to Sirius, an escapee from prison, but again Harry doesn't realize that this escapee has anything to do with himself until later when he thinks he's guilty and again later when he knows that he is not. Book four chapter two- Harry realizes his scar has a connection between himself and Voldemort even when he isn't close to him because he writes to Sirius about it, but Harry doesn't learn that he has more than just a long distance scar connection, but also a wand connection, until later in the book. Book five chapter two- The fifth book shows Harry that Aunt Petunia has known more about the Wizarding World than she has let on but Harry also finds at the end of the book to what extent when Dumbledore tells Harry about Petunia taking him in. In conclusion all the books so far has shown something that was hinted at in chapter two but became clearer at the end of the book. So my proposal, using this pattern is: Book six chapter two- Spinners End (or the Forbidden Forest), will be a prelude to the place that Harry will go to at the end of the book. I look at it this way; Harry went home with the Dursley's in the condition he was in (wont go into that at this time) having just been informed that Aunt Petunia took him in grudgingly etc. and also knowing that she, Petunia, is a little too aware about the Wizarding World. Harry becomes very unlike himself, under his condition, and starts to pursue a field of questioning that even Vernon wants to know the answers to. Petunia blusteringly opens up the can of worms that should not have been opened and tells Harry about the events of Godric's Hollow that she was aware of. (The beginning chapter of HBP is made up of discarded chapters of Philosopher's Stone, JKR web site) This bleating behavior from Aunt Petunia is in direct violation in part of the pact she made with Dumbledore. [Little insert I believe that the U.S. cover with the Pencieve is two- fold; one side is a young James and Lily coming home from a date seeing the Morsmordre symbol over their houses and the other side is an older Lily right before she went into hiding to protect her son.] Back at the Dursley's then. We know that Dumbledore is quite aware of all that is said and done there. (If you need canon examples, I'm more than happy to comply) Dumbledore knowing of what Harry had just been informed of by Aunt Petunia is compelled to visit Aunt Petunia, who just reneged on their pact. (Instead of the usual Owl arrival we will see a phoenix arrival along with Dumbledore himself. Hasn't been done yet, has it?) Dumbledore at this point needs to explain further to Harry that which was blurted out by Petunia this is where the Pencieve comes into play. Now, Harry would know of the background of events but not visited the actual site that won't happen until the end of the book that is if all the second chapters relate in the same manner. This would be when we see Dumbledore and Harry going through the woods. So Dumbledore enlightens Harry of the events that had happened to his parents' families leading up to Godric's Hollow but we will still be in the dark as to what actually happened or better yet, how it all played out that night and who all was involved. It is after all a Pencieve of memories and Lily died before she could store anything that happened that night. Usual disclaimer, JMO Snow From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 10 00:53:44 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:53:44 -0400 Subject: Book Titles (LONG) (Was: Re: HBP - who was the royal?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A8E498.7040402@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130405 heather the buzzard wrote: >(major snippage) >The HBP might, therefore, only be a minor part of the plot. >Integral, but not momentous, if you would. Liane added: (more major snippage) >So, what about the Half-Blood Prince? I don't know who he is, >none of us do. I'm not totally sure that its a person and not a >pub somewhere, but looking at the previous titles, I'm sure that >whoever the HBP is, the important thing will be the influence >that it has on Harry's life. heather now: Thanks, Liane. That's a great explanation and summation of the point I (rather poorly perhaps) was trying to make. Titles refer to objects/people who are plot *initiators*, they are an impetus, the beginning force, the starting point from which other things cascade. But they are not in and of themselves, the most important thing. So the HBP, whatever it/he is, will be revealed fairly early in the book, and it will *lead to something*. But it will not even necessarily be a major character, if JKR stays true to form. Myself, I'm now leaning toward a historical figure. No idea what the impetus thusly derived would be, but that's my instinct today. Yesterday it was something different... lol... heather the buzzard From adena_w at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 02:59:33 2005 From: adena_w at yahoo.com (adena_w) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:59:33 -0000 Subject: Madam Hooch: Yellow Eyes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130406 > pot_of_harry: > Why is Madam Hooche's eyes yellow? > I can't remember any other witch or wizard having different > coloured eyes from the usual, except for maybe LV. > Rowling also describes them as hawk like. > I know she doesn't play a major role in the books, but I am > curious to know if anyone has any theories? Maybe she deliberately transfigured her eyes, so she would have the "eyes of a hawk". It could be dead useful for a Quidditch player. Or maybe, back when she was playing professionally, her whole team transformed their eyes, the way some teams will all shave their heads or get the same tattoo. What's your theory? "adena_w" From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Jun 10 04:08:50 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:08:50 -0000 Subject: Teaching Styles and Motivation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130407 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > >>Betsy Hp: > > > Betsy Hp: > Which just goes to show JKR knows how to make things > interesting. :) Seriously, I'm of mixed minds as to how I'd like to > see Occlumency handled in the next book (assuming it *will* be > handled). On the one hand, it'd be nice to see another teacher > tackle the subject (Dumbledore and possibly Lupin seem the only > options at the moment), just to see what they do differently from > Snape. On the other hand, it'd be interesting to see how a > motivated Harry (which I assume he will be) reacts to Snape's > current methods. > Well, I think if anyone else besides Snape COULD have done it, including Lupin, Dumbledore would have had them do it in OOTP, although it would have been very dangerous to bring Lupin to Hogwarts under Umbridge's nose. So that pretty well leaves Dumbledore and Snape, or else a new character. As for the Snape possibility, I certainly hope Dumbledore isn't THAT stupid. That would definitely match up with the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over again expecting a different result. With regard to Harry being motivated, I doubt seriously that he'll be motivated to work with Snape in any capacity, even if Snape were to suddenly act like Lupin. JKR went to great lengths to set up that "I'll never forgive him" scene, and she put it at the end of the book, which is some of the most valuable real estate. You don't do things like that only to have the hero discover over the summer that "Well, I was projecting for my own guilt and I really need to cooperate with Snape for the greater good." Naah, nope, nyet, thank you for playing. In fact, considering the depth of hatred Harry felt for Snape at the end of OOTP, I wouldn't even be very surprised if he refused to take advanced potions after getting in some way or other. He wouldn't even need to worry very much about his goal of being an auror. As several fanfic writers have pointed out, if Voldemort wins Harry won't have to worry about it anyway. If Harry wins, the Auror office wouldn't dare refuse the person who just defeated the worst dark wizard in history. This would be, of course, immature and selfish by one way of thinking (a way of thinking I don't share, but I acknowledge it exists). However, it would fit perfectly with Harry's age (i.e. it's the type of thing I could readily see a teenage boy doing) and his feelings at the end of OOTP. In fact, I'm not at all sure that Harry really IS very motivated to "buckle down" and "go after Voldemort" as many have suggested. He certainly hates Voldemort, but he is still reeling from the news of the prophecy and has to digest its contents. Sullen stubborness and rebellion would be very typical behavior for a teenager in such a situation. And it's all very well to say things like "Harry hasn't got time for that, there's a war starting," but practicality has essentially no standing in the court of emotional affairs. I have no doubt he will face Voldemort in the end, if only to save his friends, but at the moment he is far from an enthusiastic crusader, and it may be a very rocky road. Lupinlore From ophelia_de_la_nuit at hotmail.com Fri Jun 10 03:03:18 2005 From: ophelia_de_la_nuit at hotmail.com (Kabuki) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:03:18 -0000 Subject: HBP - who was the royal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130408 "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > As far as know, I can't find any reference to royalty in the > WW. If there was no royalty, then the HBP must be royal from > his muggle side. Perhaps it was someone who destroyed a dark lord in the past. If Grindewald came before Voldemort, what's not to say that someone else like Harry has had to confront one in the past? Just a thought. "Kabuki" From stephenm42 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 10 03:31:37 2005 From: stephenm42 at hotmail.com (stargzrsteve) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:31:37 -0000 Subject: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler?) In-Reply-To: <42A89E6D.7060909@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130409 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > > > > > >~*S*~ > >~*P*~ > >~*O*~ > >~*I*~ > >~*L*~ > >~*E*~ > >~*R*~ > > > >~*~*~*SPACE*~*~*~ > > > heather adds: > Snip > I'm more intrigued with this cover, by the fact that Dumbledore himself > is out with Harry. How often have we actually seen Dumbledore 'out and > about' doing things? His actions are mostly behind-the-scenes, or > reactive, or limited to his office. Snip > heather the buzzard stargazer wonders: Does the inclusion of Dumbledore on three different covers indicate a more active role for the headmaster? What if Dumbledore is around Harry more because he is teaching him something. If the UK Adult cover with the Advance Potion Making text is added to the mix I have to wonder if perhaps Dumbledore isn't teaching Potions in HBP. This could be the year Snape gets the DADA position, leaving Dumbledore with Potions. stargazer steve From spherissa at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 00:41:57 2005 From: spherissa at gmail.com (Amanda Coleman) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:11:57 +0930 Subject: GoF Sphinx's riddle: Did Harry get it wrong? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c203281050609174169221dc2@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130410 tigerpatronus at yahoo.com wrote: "Next tell me what's always the last thing to mend, The middle of middle and end of the end?" The last word on the first line: "mend" Amanda: I think looking at this that this couplet is refering to the letter 'd'. Last thing to mend? ==d. (if looked at literally) Middle of middle? =? (unless we're pedantic and say it's nothing which I don't think JKR would do to us, at least not in conjunction with the other two clues ie 'last thing to mend' and 'end of the end') End of the end ==d. Now.. singly I wouldn't put much credence in the 'd' being significant, but they all reinforce one another and that seems a Rowlingesque Riddle to me. Though... having reasoned out that the couplet is referring to the letter dee I am stuck for ideas of what significance this holds. Amanda From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 10 04:13:02 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:13:02 -0400 Subject: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A9134E.1050904@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130411 Snow: >My first response to the Deluxe cover of HBP, post 128791, was >that it was Godric's Hollow and that it had been allowed to be >protected by over growing its remains into a forest possibly >the Forbidden Forest. heather the buzzard: Problem with that, is that isn't the Forbidden Forest supposed to have been there for ages? How could all those beasts, who claim to actually have rights to the land there (Centaurs, for instance) have moved in in less than 10 years? Those trees grew mighty fast too -- though of course they could magically grow them... but again, I think it would be more common knowledge if a forest had suddenly sprung up right at the edge of Hogwarts barely a decade previous. Also, JKR has said that Godric's Hollow is an entire village, not just one house. Would there be an entire village butted up against the hogwarts grounds? snow: >Since then I have been (privately) attempting to prove the point >through a pattern that exists in past book chapters. Let me >explain. If this cover represents the Forbidden Forest and we know >that the second chapter of HBP is Spinners End then, can we assume >that Spinner represents Aragog? (This is the only glitch I see in >the theoryso far anyway) heather: The problem with this is that it presumes a relationship between the cover and the second chapter. The cover might be the forbidden forest, but the second chapter be something totally unrelated (for instance, one of the other theories, like that it's the name of an Estate). Or the cover might be some other place -- perhaps even Godric's Hollow, but the second chapter is about Aragog. In either case, there's no actual relationship between the cover and the second chapter. Now for your analyses of the second chapters, I'll ask, do any of them connect to the cover art (any cover art)? snow: >Book one chapter two- Harry spoke to a snake, although he didn't >realize how he was able to until much, much later. Harry also made >the glass disappear without the aid of a wand, which has yet to be >sufficiently explained, although he has performed this type of >magic since; most recently in the MOM when he asked the revolving >room "Where's the exit" and it immediately complied. heather: There has been a great deal of wandless magic performed in the books, by various characters. I thought I read an essay on it at the Harry Potter Lexicon recently, but of course NOW I can't find it heh... snow: >[snip other chapter 2s] >In conclusion all the books so far has shown something that was >hinted at in chapter two but became clearer at the end of the >book. So my proposal, using this pattern is: heather: But I would counter that this is a fairly mundane thing for a second chapter to do... introduce a new element to set up a mystery or foreshadowing for a later payoff. It just makes structural sense. snow: >Book six chapter two- Spinners End (or the Forbidden Forest), will >be a prelude to the place that Harry will go to at the end of the >book. heather: Again, this is with the assumption that the cover art is the second chapter (or at least, what the second chapter is hinting at). However, JKR has said that this time, Harry will leave the Dursley's for a happy reason. I can't see heading into a spider-infested forest being a happy thing... or even THINKING about it lol... snow: >Back at the Dursley's then. We know that Dumbledore is quite >aware of all that is said and done there. (If you need canon >examples, I'm more than happy to comply) heather: I've actually just read the Lexicon essay on the Put-Outers and possible surveillance on 4 Privet Drive, which was quite thought-provoking! I certainly agree that DD seems to be, um, unusually aware of what happens there! snow: >Dumbledore at this point needs to explain further >to Harry that which was blurted out by Petunia this is where the >Pencieve comes into play. Now, Harry would know of the background >of events but not visited the actual sitethat won't happen until >the end of the book that is if all the second chapters relate in >the same manner. This would be when we see Dumbledore and Harry >going through the woods. heather: I do like the idea of Harry visiting the site and I hope it happens. However, I still think it's a stretch to try to combine this, PLUS the different covers, PLUS the second chapter title, all into one single plot element. I mean, why not assume that the covers have to do with "Draco's Detour"? Or assume that "Spinner's End" has to do with the Advanced Potions book on the adult version cover? It just doesn't follow. I doubt that JKR would give us so many interconnected clues ahead of the book's release. heather the buzzard From wherr009 at umn.edu Fri Jun 10 01:58:45 2005 From: wherr009 at umn.edu (wherr009) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:58:45 -0000 Subject: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130412 Finwitch: > I do not know if Harry will survive. Being 'for children' does > not mean the hero can't die - (just think of the poor little > girl trying to sell matches, or the original Grim-tale of > little mermaid - these are fairy tales). wherr009 now Just thought I would add to the list of main characters dying. Everyone has forgotten about Charlotte from "Charlotte's Web". Granted she is not the hero of book (she is more like DD) but, she is a character in the book that the reader comes to love and she still dies at the end of the book. wherr009 From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 05:24:39 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:24:39 -0000 Subject: TMR's name, mother (was Re: GOF - Riddle question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mumweasley7" wrote: > > Michelle: > > Yup, and he was named for his father and grandfather (the > > Marvolo part; I expect that was his wizard grandfather). > shalimar: > Has anyone ever wonder why Tom's mother named her son after the > father and grandfather who abandoned her because she was a witch? > Did she still love her husband? Or could she see so far into the > future she knew she'd be revenged? > > Shalimar bboyminn: I've always thought part of the reason was to keep a strong connection between young Tom and his father. I think she suspected that at some point in the furture young Tom would try to claim his rightful place in the Riddle family, if for no reason other than to inherit the estate. Because of this I think young Tom's first name is after his father, and his middle name is after grandfather Riddle. Again re-enforcing Tom's heritage in public records and in the minds of the people who were there when Tom was born. Of course, simply having the name doesn't prove anything, but if giving him that name motivated who ever was there at his birth to list Tom Riddle Sr as the father of record then it becomes a legal document. So, to some extent I think Tom's mother was re-enforcing young Tom's connection to the Riddle family in the hope that it would help insure that Tom would be taken care of in some way in the future. The origins of Tom's middle name might be a good question to ask JKR. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From kking0731 at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 05:36:38 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:36:38 -0000 Subject: Character (was: Re: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part One ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130414 Neri, terribly snipped of very compelling viewpoints: Even the Sorting Hat couldn't tell Harry what his true nature was. Snow: The sorting hat and Trelawney, I believe, both saw what lied within the person named Harry Potter, which was Voldemort/Tom Riddle. Neri snipped again: An estimation of Snape's essence is very difficult because we know so little about him, but I took the risk and published my full analysis of him only several days ago. This was my POV as a reader, but from Snape's POV he has the free will to change his choice, for the good or the bad, despite his nature. Snow: To me, the last sentence you made here, Neri, is the essence of the books. A person needs the freedom to choose which path and not because someone enlightened him to circumstances to sway him in his decision. Dumbledore always remains true to allowing others the decision of when another should be informed of the difficulties they personally have endured. Snape, and everything that he was and is, will have to disclose to Harry how he feels when and if the time comes that he should do so. Dumbledore blatantly tells Harry that it is a matter between Snape and himself when Harry asks about Snape. Dumbledore does not divulge another person's private information that, in Dumbledore's estimation, is up to the individual to disclose or not. Neville and his parents, in the same manner, deserve their own indulgence. Dumbledore asks Harry not to disclose the information that he had learned until what time Neville was ready to, if at all. This so reminds me of a particular instance in my own family where my niece had become pregnant, and could not or most likely would not, for her own reasons, disclose who the father was. My sister was beside herself on what to do mainly because she wanted the assurance of who the father was. My sister asked me what to do and I said that each person has to live with their own decisions whatever they are, if you make a decision for her she will then have to live with Your decision. My niece, unfortunately, has to live with another person's decision, because of disclosure, and is forced to subject her child to a life she would have, in the end, been better off without had she had had the choice to do so. Let each person make their own decision as to when to disclose information or NOT after all they are the ones who have to live with it and sometimes it's not something you want to live with yourself let alone share with the world, as is Neville's situation. Neville didn't want anyone to know about his parents, but circumstances forced it to be known. Neither Dumbledore nor Harry was truly accountable for the situation with Neville, it just happened and Neville dealt with it. This is as it should be. A situation occurs and if left to its own end will conclude on its own if left to its own devise. If not, and you become indulgent, you could be a time twister instead of a time turner. Usual disclaimer, JMO Snow From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 10 06:35:05 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (karen barker) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:35:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: HBP Spoiler Policy - Spilers in general In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050610063505.78771.qmail@web25606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130415 Hi Debbie! I have resisted the temptation to post the following to the list so am pasting what I wanted to write in here to you in the hope that you will do something about this. Please can you ask them to stop doing this, I'm sure I read in the admin mail or somewhere that we are supposed to annonce spoilers to other books too. Thanks for your help! Karen >>>> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wherr009" wrote: > Finwitch: > > I do not know if Harry will survive. Being 'for children' does > > not mean the hero can't die - (just think of the poor little > > girl trying to sell matches, or the original Grim-tale of > > little mermaid - these are fairy tales). > > > wherr009 now > > Just thought I would add to the list of main characters dying. > Everyone has forgotten about Charlotte from "Charlotte's Web". > Granted she is not the hero of book (she is more like DD) but, > she is a character in the book that the reader comes to love > and she still dies at the end of the book. > > wherr009 Does everyone HAVE to keep telling the whole group what happens at the end of other books. It's becoming quite prevalent and it's really rather annoying. When I read a book for the first time I don't want to know who dies at the end or whatever. It's happening particulary with Lord of the Rings at the moment which I have neither read nor seen on film, but which I was planning to read after HBP. Not sure whether I shall now, having had half the plot revealed here over the past few days. Please could you all try and remember that not everyone has read every book. Karen --- Debbie wrote: ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 10 06:36:47 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:36:47 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: HBP Spoiler Policy - Spilers in general In-Reply-To: <20050610063505.78771.qmail@web25606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130416 Hi everyone - I don't know how this ended up on the list because I replied to an email that Debbie sent to me into my email account, so I apoligise for the fact that this is OT!!! Karen --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, karen barker wrote: > Hi Debbie! > > I have resisted the temptation to post the following > to the list so am pasting what I wanted to write in > here to you in the hope that you will do something > about this. Please can you ask them to stop doing > this, I'm sure I read in the admin mail or somewhere > that we are supposed to annonce spoilers to other > books too. > > Thanks for your help! > > Karen > > > >>>> > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wherr009" > wrote: > > Finwitch: > > > I do not know if Harry will survive. Being 'for > children' does > > > not mean the hero can't die - (just think of the > poor little > > > girl trying to sell matches, or the original > Grim-tale of > > > little mermaid - these are fairy tales). > > > > > > wherr009 now > > > > Just thought I would add to the list of main > characters dying. > > Everyone has forgotten about Charlotte from > "Charlotte's Web". > > Granted she is not the hero of book (she is more > like DD) but, > > she is a character in the book that the reader comes > to love > > and she still dies at the end of the book. > > > > wherr009 > > Does everyone HAVE to keep telling the whole group > what happens at the end of other books. It's becoming > quite prevalent and it's really rather annoying. When > I read a book for the first time I don't want to know > who dies at the end or whatever. It's happening > particulary with Lord of the Rings at the moment which > I have neither read nor seen on film, but which I was > planning to read after HBP. Not sure whether I shall > now, having had half the plot revealed here over the > past few days. > > Please could you all try and remember that not > everyone has read every book. > > Karen > > --- Debbie wrote: > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday > snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 10 06:48:58 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:48:58 -0000 Subject: GoF Sphinx's riddle: Did Harry get it wrong? In-Reply-To: <8c203281050609174169221dc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Amanda Coleman wrote: > tigerpatronus wrote: > "Next tell me what's always the last thing to mend, > The middle of middle and end of the end?" > > The last word on the first line: "mend" Amanda: > I think looking at this that this couplet is refering to the letter > 'd'. > > Last thing to mend? =d. (if looked at literally) > Middle of middle? =dd (unless we're pedantic and say it's nothing > which I don't think JKR would do to us, at least not in conjunction > with the other two clues ie 'last thing to mend' and 'end of the end') > End of the end =d. > > Now.. singly I wouldn't put much credence in the 'd' being > significant, but they all reinforce one another and that seems a > Rowlingesque Riddle to me. > > Though... having reasoned out that the couplet is referring to the > letter dee I am stuck for ideas of what significance this holds. Geoff: I'm inclined to go with the riddle at face value as JKR wrote it. Someone has pointed out that DE is used mainly as an abbreviation by poeple such as ourselves in commentary and discussion of the books. Glancing briefly through one or two chapters where they are in evidence, JKR tends to call them by their full name each time. Again, Harry is in the middle of the Tri-Wizard Tournament and Death Eaters are not at the forefront of his mind at that point in time. He's working against time, he is looking for what, to him, is a straightforward answer to the riddle is, if that isn't a contradiction in terms. He's weighing up the various options put forward by the Sphinx.... If someone was to throw the first couplet of the riddle at me out of the blue and say "What do you reckon the answer to that is?" I think that my response would be very similar to Harry's - his answer doesn't even consider a Voldemort connection; interestingly, it's just occurred to me that he does think of "impostor", which is what Crouch!Moody is, but that's a side thought. And again,in the "demender" theory, mend doesn't fit the second line of its couplet as an answer and, as someone has already remarked, I can't think of any British local accent which would turn "ment" into "mend" and I live in an area which does a lot of funny things with its pronunciation! From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 10 11:56:57 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:56:57 -0000 Subject: HBP: is Steve (bboy) a seer? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130418 Sorry, couldn't help myself, I have to share this blast from the past: Post 50072 written Jan 18, 2003 by Steve, (Bboy). The thread was about the name of Hogwarts and why it was "Witchcraft and Wizardry" instead of just "Magic". The general idea was that the former sounded better. Here's Steve's reply: > bboy_mn: > > I agree, if you got an invitation to a 'magic school', you could > easily think it was a stage magicians school. A place where some guy > would teach your kids to perform card tricks at parties. Not very > appealing. But 'School of Witchcraft and Wizardry', leaves little > doubt, and it does sound very grand and majestic. Plus we hear it very > early in the series, so not only is it Harry's introduction, it is our > introduction to the school. So the name is meant to impress us as much > as it is meant to impress Harry. > > As a side note: Did you know that there are 150 muggle magical > societies in Britain. Some of the oldest in the world. And, that > Prince Charles is a practicing magician. He belongs to the Magic > Circle magical society and to maintain his membership he has to give > at least one performance a year. > > I think it's entirely possible that there are some wizards hiddden in > the Windsor family tree. > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn Potioncat who probably should have told Steve she was doing this, but didn't. From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri Jun 10 13:20:34 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:20:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The late Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002f01c56dbf$2f7a1c00$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130419 wherr009 now Just thought I would add to the list of main characters dying. Everyone has forgotten about Charlotte from "Charlotte's Web". Granted she is not the hero of book (she is more like DD) but, she is a character in the book that the reader comes to love and she still dies at the end of the book. wherr009 Sherry now: I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore, but you got my attention with this comment about Charlotte's web. Here are a couple differences I see between Harry and Charlotte. Ok, I would consider Wilbur to be the main character of Charlotte's Web. It's all about him. What would children have thought if Wilbur had indeed been made into pork chops? i kind of doubt that the book would have been the wonderful classic it is! The other point is that it is natural that spiders--normal real world barn spiders anyway--live short lives. This was ok with the natural flow of life, and Charlotte left some of her children to be company for Wilbur too. However, in 1990's England, it is not normal for a 17-year-old boy to die. Yes, they do, obviously, but it shouldn't be normal. So, for me, anyway, that would have a very different impact than Charlotte's death did when I first read that book so many years ago. Oh yes, I cried when Charlotte died, but it was nothing compared to the dread when i thought Wilbur was going to become the family's dinner! Sherry From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 13:47:54 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:47:54 -0000 Subject: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy Hp: > You knew I was going to bring up resisting the Imperius Curse, > right? Because not only is it *exactly* resisting the penetration > of your mind or will (without wand or words), but Snape even tells > us (and Harry) that Occlumency calls on similar skills. And I can't > resist a certain ironic chuckle at you raising an exceptionalism > argument. Because I have to differ. There's not a single aspect of > Occlumency, as described in the books that seems outside of the > construct of magic JKR has already given us. The difference, again, is that while Imperius resistance depends upon the generation of a state of being (Harry hears the little voice, etc.), it's then actualized into *a single act of resistance*, expelling the invader. > Betsy Hp: > And yet, within JKR's world we've seen *tons* of examples of magic > without wands and words. The first magic we witness is wandless > and wordless (the disappearing glass). I would also point out how > very mundane the magic actually is. Wizards and witches don't need > to reach a certain spiritual level in order to access their > powers. Their magic is as much a part of them as their fingers and > toes. And they use their magic in much the same way, as a simple > tool rather than a conduit to another dimension or plane. The > children have magic; they learn to use it. And if you don't have > magic, no matter what sort of mental gymnastics you put yourself > through, you will never have magic (hence the tragedy of Filch). Babies have to learn how to walk, although they have feet to do it on. And no amount of will can make you do a backflip if you don't know how and haven't built up the muscles. (Front flips are so much easier... :) That is to say, while magic is definitely mundane there is still a learning process for actualizing one's abilities. If it were so easy, no one would have to go to school. I'd say there is a certain spiritual (or perhaps better, psychological) level to magic, though. Look at poor Neville. McG is right--what he needs is confidence in himself, getting down with himself, to make his magic work. And if book 5 isn't the story of Neville's cultivation of his previously latent and unactualized qualities, I don't know what he's doing in the book. Harry can't cast an effective Crucio because he's lacking in the desire to hurt people--but Bellatrix's words imply that this can be cultivated. I wouldn't say there's a ton of wandless magic. Wandless magic in the kids is presented as being uncontrolled (vanishing glass, etc.); Dumbledore does things, but he's badass and continually presented as exceptional. Authorial comment via interview (which is so useful for mechanics of a world, which is what we're arguing now) tells us that wandless magic is unpredictable/etc. But again, what distinguishes all these things is that they're discrete actions. Dumbledore claps and summons the food. Snape controls the ropes he'd summoned with his wand, with his hand. Harry makes the wand light up. Occlumency is the least discrete *action* magic we've ever seen. Occlumency is not the act of pushing someone out of your mind so that they know they've been pushed out, or else it would be utterly ineffective for spying. [This is, of course, making a small assumption that Occlumency is being used by Snape for spying--which I am under the impression you were a general partisan of. I can't imagine how Occlumency would be useful in a stealth situation if the Legilimens it was being used against really could *tell* that it was being used. This is admitted conjecture, but if you have a way around it. Snape had to have some way to keep his ass from getting fried iin the first war, and I can't see Voldemort not pulling out the big guns if he could tell someone was hiding things, even if he couldn't then tell what they were hiding.] It's a being-thing (I am in a condition where my mind is impenetrable, I will not let you in) as opposed to a doing-thing (get OUT!). Now, if you can show me any other magic that seems about getting oneself into a condition as opposed to taking a discrete action... Patronus is a discrete action, resulting in a summoning. Imperius Resistance is a discrete action, which throws off the curse in a concerted act of will. Effectively resisting the continued application of force...stative. Maybe I'm on the wrong track and making too fine of a philosophical distinction (kinesis, kinema, whatever). But I think there's a significant enough thing dissimilar. > Betsy Hp: > Wait, what am I ignoring again? Because if Dumbledore takes over > teaching Occlumency to Harry and he says, "Right, now tell me, > what's the sound of one hand clapping?" I will be shocked, to say > the least. I'm not "picking and choosing what parts of human > psychology" to apply. JKR has already done that for us. Wizards > and witches can overcome a clinical depression by thinking of one > happy thought and using the proper incantation. It flies in the > face of our understanding of human psychology, but that's magic. They can banish a Dementor--which is not depression in and of itself (an internal phenomenon) but an external being that JKR was inspired to create out of her experience of depression, which induces a state thereof. If depression itself were so easily banished, why was Sirius so unhappy all through OotP? (Fine distinctions, you know.) If DD teaches Occlumency, I wouldn't be surprised if he takes a far more indirect approach than Snape, as opposed to "Clear your mind and I'm going to try this on you." But then he's an altogether much more subtle personality and probably has a finer appreciation of how to approach something by building up seemingly secondary skills. -Nora loves words that don't quite work in English like being-thing From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jun 10 14:23:50 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:23:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was... Message-ID: <1a8.3932fef5.2fdafc76@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130421 In a message dated 6/10/2005 8:53:26 AM Central Standard Time, nrenka at yahoo.com writes: That is to say, while magic is definitely mundane there is still a learning process for actualizing one's abilities. If it were so easy, no one would have to go to school. JKR was once asked about Hagrid's magical ability (I've been looking for the qoute but haven't found it yet) and she replied that it was never going to be as good as it could have been since he was chucked out of school during his second year. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cottell at dublin.ie Fri Jun 10 14:29:12 2005 From: cottell at dublin.ie (muscatel1988) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:29:12 -0000 Subject: GoF Sphinx's riddle: Did Harry get it wrong? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130422 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > And again,in the "demender" theory, mend doesn't fit the second line > of its couplet as an answer and, as someone has already remarked, I > can't think of any British local accent which would turn "ment" > into "mend" and I live in an area which does a lot of funny things > with its pronunciation! And you're absolutely right, Geoff. No British dialect does. But the phonology of American English works differently. The middle consonant of, for example, "rider" is pronounced the same there as the middle consonant of "writer". Where BritEng has a voiced alveolar stop in the former and a voiceless stop in the latter, AmEng has a voiced alveolar flap in both. As for how "writer" and "rider" are distinguished in AmEng, given that the medial consonant doesn't do it, the difference lies in the vowel of the first syllable, which is longer in the first than the second. So it's unlikely that JKR, who doesn't have this stop > flap rule, would have meant "dementor", since she'd have "dementor" and "demendor" pronounced differently. > JLV (whose pal Katie can't understand why Americans call her Kay-dee > not Kay-Tee!) That's why! From lhuntley at fandm.edu Fri Jun 10 14:47:53 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:47:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Sphinx's riddle: Did Harry get it wrong? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16f97a6a3c06aa845c5b3369b08a5533@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 130423 Muscatel: > And you're absolutely right, Geoff. No British dialect does. > > But the phonology of American English works differently. The middle > consonant of, for example, "rider" is pronounced the same there as the > middle consonant of "writer". Where BritEng has a voiced alveolar > stop in the former and a voiceless stop in the latter, AmEng has a > voiced alveolar flap in both. > > As for how "writer" and "rider" are distinguished in AmEng, given that > the medial consonant doesn't do it, the difference lies in the vowel > of the first syllable, which is longer in the first than the second. I've been sitting here whispering "writer" and "rider" under my breath for several minutes now (probably giving my coworkers some doubts about my sanity in the process), and I've got to say that at least with *my* brand of American English "writer" and "rider" don't sound anything alike. "Writer" sounds like "write-er", and "rider" sounds like "wry-der". Completely different. Still, I can see how "demendor" pronounced sloppily enough could give the impression of "dementor," which is all that's really needed for this type of riddle, anyway. On the other hand, I think Harry was right with his "spider" answer -- Potterverse characters do not think of Death Eaters as "DE's", and "mend" makes no sense as an answer to the second couplet. Also, the "spider" answer is an obvious reference to the Acromantula Harry encounters further into the maze. Laura http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 10 15:08:48 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:08:48 -0700 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... Message-ID: <410-22005651015848643@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130424 Hi, with all the talks of what's on the covers, I thoughts some of you might like to see the full cover of the UK edition of HBP. they removed the summary from the back as well. The link is: http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/june10/fullukhbpcover.jpg ~*S*~ ~*P*~ ~*O*~ ~*I*~ ~*L*~ ~*E*~ ~*R*~ SPACE ************************************************ The back cover shows a pensive (or what most of us assume to be a pensive) in an underground cave with water in it. The "pensive" is siting on a circular stone platform in the middle of the "lake". There also appears to be a gold looking boat. There are marks on the cave wall, but I don't think they are supposed to be words from all I can tell... Can anyone see anything I've missed? Chancie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 10 15:14:30 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:14:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... Message-ID: <410-220056510151430362@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130425 > [Original Message] > From: Chancie > To: HP4GU > Date: 6/10/2005 8:09:44 AM > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... > > Hi, with all the talks of what's on the covers, > I thoughts some of you might like to see the > full cover of the UK edition of HBP. they > removed the summary from the back as well. > > The link is: > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/june10/fullukhbpcover.jpg > > ~*S*~ > ~*P*~ > ~*O*~ > ~*I*~ > ~*L*~ > ~*E*~ > ~*R*~ > > > SPACE > ************************************************ > > The back cover shows a pensive (or what most of us assume > to be a pensive) in an underground cave with water in it. The > "pensive" is siting on a circular stone platform in the middle of > the "lake". There also appears to be a gold looking boat. There > are marks on the cave wall, but I don't think they are supposed > to be words from all I can tell... Can anyone see anything I've > missed? > > > Chancie **************** Chancie again: I also wanted to add, that there are two hands connected by what looks like a rope of fire, and just above the title located on the spine, there is a ring. From ash_silverfurn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 07:30:10 2005 From: ash_silverfurn at yahoo.com (Japie Maree) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:30:10 -0000 Subject: My predictions for HBP - not for contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130426 I'm not going to enter the contest but I want to make a few predictions 1 ? Draco is the HBP He acts like he is a Prince, he at least leads the slytherin's of his year to a certain extent. He might be part Veela. Fleur and the Veela of the world cup will then be a clue about his ancestry. Even if he only has a Muggleborn ancestor it would still work since the one aspect of bigotry that has not been addressed is the hypocrites who are what they hate the most and hide that fact from the world. A dark family secret then? Or does Draco know about it. 2 ? Harry will be gone from the Privet Drive on or just before his 16th birthday so that he can have his first ever birthday party. 3 ? Draco will want revenge for his Father's capture, so even if he is not the HBP he will play a more important role in Book 6. 4 ? If the school is attacked then Draco will for the first time see the consequences of his father's beliefs and that might lead to a change of heart. 5 ? On a lighter note Harry will not fail Divination but he wont continue with it and he will pass Potions but perhaps not with an O so we will see what happens. Ash From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 10 13:06:19 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:06:19 -0400 Subject: GoF Sphinx's riddle: Did Harry get it wrong? In-Reply-To: <8c203281050609174169221dc2@mail.gmail.com> References: <8c203281050609174169221dc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42A9904B.2050900@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130427 Amanda: >I think looking at this that this couplet is refering to the letter >'d'. >Now.. singly I wouldn't put much credence in the 'd' being >significant, but they all reinforce one another and that seems a >Rowlingesque Riddle to me. >Though... having reasoned out that the couplet is referring to the >letter dee I am stuck for ideas of what significance this holds. No 'significance', just part of the riddle. Spy+D+er = spider. I guess it's 'significant' because it's the part Harry didn't actually figure out. And it's not even really a "Rowlingesque" riddle, really. Rowling's riddles follow classic riddle techniques. This one uses the trickery of making you think about the meaning of the words, when in fact the answer lies within the actual words themselves. This is typical of cryptic crosswords, for instance, where the actual literal meaning of the clues is usually totally irrelevant; it's the letters in the words themselves that are important. heather the buzzard From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 10 16:55:57 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:55:57 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: <410-220056510151430362@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130428 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chancie " wrote: > > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Chancie > > To: HP4GU > > Date: 6/10/2005 8:09:44 AM > > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... > > > > Hi, with all the talks of what's on the covers, > > I thoughts some of you might like to see the > > full cover of the UK edition of HBP. they > > removed the summary from the back as well. > > > > The link is: > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/? image_location=/june10/fullukhbpcover.jpg > > ~*S*~ ~*P*~ ~*O*~ ~*I*~ ~*L*~ ~*E*~ ~*R*~ SPACE ************************************************ > > > > The back cover shows a pensive (or what most of us assume > > to be a pensive) in an underground cave with water in it. The > > "pensive" is siting on a circular stone platform in the middle of > > the "lake". There also appears to be a gold looking boat. There > > are marks on the cave wall, but I don't think they are supposed > > to be words from all I can tell... Can anyone see anything I've > > missed? > > > > > > Chancie > > > > **************** > > Chancie again: > > I also wanted to add, that there are two hands connected > by what looks like a rope of fire, and just above the > title located on the spine, there is a ring. Wow ? this one has sent my heart racing with anticipation. My mouth is positively watering! The thing that really set it off is the ring. It seems to be a dark precious stone with a mark through it, and looking closely this mark is shaped like a bolt of lightning (ooooh). I've got my other Bloomsbury books and had a look at the spines: PS ? (Darn ? I can't find it! Where is it?? Did I led it to someone? Nooo!) I guess it was probably a picture of a stone CoS ? Hedwig ? close-up from front cover with Harry and Ron in the flying Ford Anglia PoA ? Black dog's head (Grim/Padfoot!) The dog is also on the back cover. This would have been a major clue if I was looking for them back then GoF ? Owl (Hedwig again?) taken from the back cover picture (of stairs in Hogwarts) ? which doesn't really have a great deal to do with the story as far as I can remember. OotP ? Golden feather which I assume is from a Phoenix. Also, the interlocked hands with magical binding look like one is old (Dumbledore?) and one is young (Harry?). I'm guessing Dumbledore and Harry have to team up in this one. I really can't possibly focus enough on thinking (still trying to calm down) to come up with ideas as to what this all means, but I'm sure you guys are the people to look to for spectacular speculations and devastating deductions. 35 days JLV xx From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 17:03:40 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:03:40 -0000 Subject: HBP contest update -- UK full cover elements now off limits - no spoilers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130429 Hi All, Any element obviously contained in the UK Bloomsbury full-wrap cover is now off limits. Cover is at this link: http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/? image_location=/june10/fullukhbpcover.jpg For example, if the cover had contained an image of a pegasus (and it doesn't, because this is a spoiler-free post), then any prediction like "Harry will utilize a pegasus" or "Harry will utilize a pegasus to rescue Hermione from LV" would be worth no points. TK -- TigerPatronus From inkling108 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 18:02:40 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:02:40 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130430 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chancie " > wrote: > > > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > From: Chancie > > > To: HP4GU > > > Date: 6/10/2005 8:09:44 AM > > > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... > > > > > > Hi, with all the talks of what's on the covers, > > > I thoughts some of you might like to see the > > > full cover of the UK edition of HBP. they > > > removed the summary from the back as well. > > > > > > The link is: > > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/? > image_location=/june10/fullukhbpcover.jpg > > > > ~*S*~ > ~*P*~ > ~*O*~ > ~*I*~ > ~*L*~ > ~*E*~ > ~*R*~ > > > SPACE > ************************************************ > > > > > > The back cover shows a pensive (or what most of us assume > > > to be a pensive) in an underground cave with water in it. The > > > "pensive" is siting on a circular stone platform in the middle of > > > the "lake". There also appears to be a gold looking boat. There > > > are marks on the cave wall, but I don't think they are supposed > > > to be words from all I can tell... Can anyone see anything I've > > > missed? > > > > > > Inkling now: By chance I spent a good part of this morning looking through an illustrated book on the Grail Legends and when I saw the full UK cover I nearly fell off my chair. Now I know this is a big, big leap but that Chalice-like object with light streaming from it certainly resembles the Grail. And it wouldn't be the first time that JKR has taken a legend of Western esoteric lore and presented it as a literal object -- the Philosopher's Stone, the Veil between the worlds. Also the little boat -- the Grail legends are ull of journeys in boats large and small, the most famous maybe being the journey Arthur took after his final battle, the journey by boat to Avalon. Just wildly speculating -- !!! :-) The interlocked, fire enlaced hands looks like a touch of Marvel Comics -- POW! ZAP! Can't wait! Inkling From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 10 15:23:59 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:23:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Sphinx's riddle: Did Harry get it wrong? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A9B08F.3060600@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130431 "Geoff Bannister" >>I can't think of any British local accent which would turn "ment" >>into "mend" and I live in an area which does a lot of funny things >>with its pronunciation! >> >> > > > muscatel1988 wrote: >And you're absolutely right, Geoff. No British dialect does. > >But the phonology of American English works differently. The middle >consonant of, for example, "rider" is pronounced the same there as the >middle consonant of "writer". Where BritEng has a voiced alveolar >stop in the former and a voiceless stop in the latter, AmEng has a >voiced alveolar flap in both. > >As for how "writer" and "rider" are distinguished in AmEng, given that >the medial consonant doesn't do it, the difference lies in the vowel >of the first syllable, which is longer in the first than the second. > > Yup, this is a known peculiarity of north american english. Laura had trouble hearing it, but I'll suggest that it's extremely difficult to separate our perception of a word from it's actual pronounciation, as a matter of habituation. There is a difference in the vowel sound, as you say, and that could confuse the issue. Perhaps a better example would be "batter" and "badder", or "better/bedder", "leader/litre". That's not to say there aren't north americans who do distinguish the t sound, but it is not standard. In fact, it was an issue recently in the Scripps spelling bee (which I admit I watch, fascinated) -- in an unfamiliar word, if you don't know the origins of a word, it's near impossible to know if it's a 't' or a 'd' sound. The commentators made a specific note of informing us that. A similar problem is the "schwa" vowel... the habit of turning any unaccented vowel into "uh". Think of the unaccented syllable in -- well, 'syllable' -- SIL-uh-bl. How about "motor" and "voter" -- they rhyme, but with different vowels. Anyway. All that being said, there is a difference when we get to the demender-dementor example. For in this case, the t/d is preceded by an n, and that changes everything. I can't imagine anyone, even an american, saying 'demender' for 'dementor'. Neither would "Dudley Demented" sound like "Dudley Demended". The preceding n makes a huge difference, and here we pronounce it as a t. "Fender/renter" don't rhyme. "Hinting" "into" "until"... clearly 't' sounds. It's not just n's either. "Empty" is not emdee. "Uptown" is not 'updown' (teehee!). "Nifty" -- now interestingly, that does come out like nif-dee to me. So it's not just a clearcut case as 't medial between 2 vowels is d, and t preceded by a consonant is t'. It seems to depend on the consonant. How fascinating! And I KNOW that I've read all about this online previously, but darn it I can't find it right now. So to sum up -- demender=dementor does not work in american (or canadian) english, just as doesn't work in british enlgish, so the spider solution still stands as the best. heather the buzzard From lhuntley at fandm.edu Fri Jun 10 18:30:07 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:30:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP: Full UK Cover In-Reply-To: <16f97a6a3c06aa845c5b3369b08a5533@fandm.edu> References: <16f97a6a3c06aa845c5b3369b08a5533@fandm.edu> Message-ID: <8c3e36655588e7301a99661f2bf054a0@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 130432 *crosses fingers and hopes she is complying with the spoiler guidelines* * * * * * * * * S P O I L E R S * * * * * * * Ahem. It's the Pensieve! It's a glowing boat! It's a funky black-gemmed ring with a lightning bolt emblazoned on it! It's . . . two fellas holding hands! *maniacal grin* Please, someone, discuss. I need a nice elaborate theory on what all of this means, and I'm too excited/apprehensive/elated/worried to come up with one on my own. Laura P.S. Did JKR say that she originally had Harry being discovered on an island by Hermione's father (who lived on the mainland)? I'm sure I heard something to that effect. Perhaps the boat has to do with Godric's Hollow. P.P.S. Please take the above speculation with a grain of salt until I can find the reference -- I don't want to start any unfounded rumors! From alishak at spu.edu Fri Jun 10 18:40:17 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:40:17 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: <293c75c806edb8256a1ce720a3ce02dc@fandm.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130433 > Alisha: > > Wow, that really got my defenses up, so I'll try to keep calm about > > this. > > First off, kudos for a temper well kept. ^_^ Alisha: Why, thank you. :) > > > I never said that happy endings made the difference between > > fiction and literature. I said that literature tells us what we > > need to hear as opposed to what we want to hear. > > This is quite a strong, yet somewhat ambiguous, statement, and I was > wondering if you could elaborate on why you think this is the case. > I'm a little opposed to the idea of a clear demarcation between fiction > and "literature", anyway (although I certainly admit that there are > specific examples which fall pretty clearly to one side of the > spectrum), and I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. > How do we differentiate between what we "need" and what we "want" in > fiction? If, as you seem to imply further into your argument, we > sometimes "need" positive messages as much as negative ones, who is to > say Harry Potter cannot be an example of such? (Sorry if I've > misinterpreted your position.) Alisha: Hmm...I think you have misinterpreted my position. I'm not saying that Harry Potter can't end with a whole, happy, very much alive Harry. I'm not even saying that this would be a bad thing. What I am saying is that it is entirely possible, plausible and understandable that the series will end with Harry broken or even dead. And this is not a bad thing. Either ending could be done and done well, and neither would make for a poor ending to the series. I only wanted to point out to those who seem to think that only a happy ending would work or be appropriate, that there is much precedence for the opposite to be true. > > While I think "telling" the reader something is an integral part of > literature as a whole, I disagree that the quality of the message is a > good measure of the difference between classic "literature" and mere > "fiction". Alisha: I disagree here. I love to write "fiction". I am very good at coming up with stories that are interesting. My problem is that when I'm finished, any workshopping I've ever had done on my pieces seems to bring up the same issue. "What's at stake here?" IOW, why is this important? A story, or a piece of fiction can be interesting, entertaining, even moral, but in order for it to be literature (something that has the ability to survive into future generations as a work worthy of in-depth discussion) it must have some theme or deeper significance from the author. Often times the author may not be aware of what this is, but it should still be there. I see the difference between "fiction" and "literature" to be similar to the difference between Art and something that is artistic. I do collages, that's artistic. It requires a certain asthetic sense, but I'm not an artist. I don't seek for anything beyond beauty in my work. I think literature has to be more than just a good book, it has to have larger social implications. I have to be honest here. I really don't think Harry Potter falls into the literature category. I love it, and it is exceptionally good fiction, but I still don't see it as literature. > > > Sometimes we need > > to hear that Elizabeth Bennet, for all her poor upbringing and > > uncouth family, wins the heart of Darcy and goes on to do great and > > noble things with her new position. > > And, sometimes, don't we also need to hear that an orphaned boy, > saddled with abusive caretakers, a dire prophecy, and an immortal > nemesis can't find peace and happiness and family somewhere down the > road? I'm being a bit facetious here, but this message boils down to a > universal "truth" in literature: the downtrodden *do* have hope. Alisha: Yes, sometimes we do, indeed, need to hear this. But sometimes, that is just what we want to hear. > > > Sometimes we need to know that > > good people have good things happen to them. > > So why not Harry Potter? Alisha: No reason, unless the result is a cop-out ending where everyone lives happily ever after because it will make people happy. > > > And sometimes it's > > true, that does happen. However, a happy ending does not > > necessarily make a good ending. Harry Potter's story is a > > distinctly moral story (not religious, not allegorical, just > > moral). Therefore it is necessary that Good triumph over Evil in > > the end. It is not, however, necessary that Harry lives and > > Voldemort dies. > > I agree wholeheartedly, but I disagree that the reverse is necessarily > true. Alisha: So do I. > > > Think of Hamlet (depressing, I know). Hamlet > > doesn't survive the story, but he takes down his unscrupulous mother > > and his villainous uncle before he goes. That's what's important. > > JKR may be able to tell her story without having Harry die. That > > would work. > > I still agree. (Wow, we're on a role here.) ^_^ > > > It would also work to have Harry die to show that > > sacrifice is sometimes necessary for victory. I do think, however, > > that even if Harry lives, it won't be the happy ending most children > > are expecting. If JKR is to make this story believable and real, > > then Harry will never be the same again. We won't ever see that > > happy, healthy boy we met on the train to Hogwart's. > > . . . Aaaand, here's where I balk. First of all, Harry wasn't really > happy or healthy when we met him, was he? He was supressed, > half-starved, un-loved, &c. Alisha: I agree, and I think I should have phrased this differently. When we first met Harry, he was all of those things. But when we first saw him on the Hogwart's Express, he was happy, at least, though perhaps for the first time in his life. > > In some ways, I think one of the biggest themes of the series is about > Harry slowly repairing and, in many way, constructing his psyche anew. > He learns (sometimes slowly) to have friendship, to have a family, to > have a home, to sacrifice himself for others and to allow others to do > the same for him, to rely upon other people, to take their feelings > into account -- all of the things he missed out on when he lived with > the Dursleys. Really, the story *starts* with a broken Harry. It > doesn't really make thematic sense to me, then, to have the story end > where it started -- with a Harry that isn't whole. > > Now, one can argue that the damage to his psyche done by the Dursley is > quite minimal given the circumstances, but this speaks directly to > Harry's inborn (or perhaps *instilled* -- by his mother) resilience and > inner strength. Give these qualities, I find it quite realistic and > in-character that he will be capable of enjoying a reasonably happy, > normal-ish life someday. Sure, there will be scars -- but everybody > *has* scars. Perhaps the message might be that pain and suffering and > old wounds are a part of life, but that doesn't preclude one from > *living*. Alisha: I find these points intriguing, and, as I said, I'm not saying this can't or won't happen, I'm just arguing that the other options should not be dismissed. I think that one of the reasons people read fiction is because the characters are familiar. But the reason people don't stop reading after three chapters is because there's something there that they don't see everyday. You compare Harry's scars to the scars that "everybody" has. But Harry isn't everybody. Not everyone has their parents murdered when they are 1 (right in front of them, I might add). Not everyone has repeated attempts made on their lives by a madman who's trying to take over the world. Not everyone sees a schoolmate die when they are 14. The things that Harry has gone through mean that his wounds will necessarily be deeper than most people's. I do, however, agree that this does not preclude him from living. He may live, but he will never be the same again. > > > To bring in a > > similar story, he'd have to be like Frodo, broken by his > > experience. > > LoTR is, of course, an excellent story, but I see no reason why JKR > might want to rewrite it. She gets sued for plagiarism enough as it > is. ^_~ I'd be horrified if she tried to rewrite it, but you can't deny the similarities. Alisha:who's spent the last 4 years studying "literature" and wouldn't mind if she got to have a happy, fluffy ending for once, just not with this series. From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 10 15:32:59 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:32:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: <410-22005651015848643@earthlink.net> References: <410-22005651015848643@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42A9B2AB.60608@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130434 Chancie wrote: >Hi, with all the talks of what's on the covers, >I thoughts some of you might like to see the >full cover of the UK edition of HBP. they >removed the summary from the back as well. > >The link is: >http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/june10/fullukhbpcover.jpg > >~*S*~ >~*P*~ >~*O*~ >~*I*~ >~*L*~ >~*E*~ >~*R*~ > > >SPACE >************************************************ > >The back cover shows a pensive (or what most of us assume >to be a pensive) in an underground cave with water in it. The >"pensive" is siting on a circular stone platform in the middle of >the "lake". There also appears to be a gold looking boat. There >are marks on the cave wall, but I don't think they are supposed >to be words from all I can tell... Can anyone see anything I've >missed? > > > I also wanted to add, that there are two hands connected >by what looks like a rope of fire, and just above the >title located on the spine, there is a ring. > > Wow. Very cool, thanks. I'll just go on record right now as saying I have absolutely NO idea what any of this might mean. Wild guesses: The ring belongs to the half-blood prince and is some indicator of royalty. The ring has a sort of serpentine look to it, so it's actually Voldemort's. The ring belongs to Dumbledore. The ring is one of the 3 Elven rings and will soon be called to... oh, wait, wrong book. The cave is at Hogwarts, hidden under the lake, or under the cliff. The boat may not actually be gold, but just glowing from reflected light. The cave and pensieve are in the Chamber of Secrets, which can be explored now that the basilisk is gone, and the pensieve is Tom Riddle's. Harry and Ron do some sort of blood-brother bond ritual. One arm looks a bit older; that's the HBP passing his powers on to Harry. Hermione and Ron finally hold hands, and sparks fly. Harry and Voldemort resolve their battles with a 'thumb war'. heather the buzzard From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 10 15:32:59 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:32:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: <410-22005651015848643@earthlink.net> References: <410-22005651015848643@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42A9B2AB.60608@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130435 Chancie wrote: >Hi, with all the talks of what's on the covers, >I thoughts some of you might like to see the >full cover of the UK edition of HBP. they >removed the summary from the back as well. > >The link is: >http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/june10/fullukhbpcover.jpg > >~*S*~ >~*P*~ >~*O*~ >~*I*~ >~*L*~ >~*E*~ >~*R*~ > > >SPACE >************************************************ > >The back cover shows a pensive (or what most of us assume >to be a pensive) in an underground cave with water in it. The >"pensive" is siting on a circular stone platform in the middle of >the "lake". There also appears to be a gold looking boat. There >are marks on the cave wall, but I don't think they are supposed >to be words from all I can tell... Can anyone see anything I've >missed? > > > I also wanted to add, that there are two hands connected >by what looks like a rope of fire, and just above the >title located on the spine, there is a ring. > > Wow. Very cool, thanks. I'll just go on record right now as saying I have absolutely NO idea what any of this might mean. Wild guesses: The ring belongs to the half-blood prince and is some indicator of royalty. The ring has a sort of serpentine look to it, so it's actually Voldemort's. The ring belongs to Dumbledore. The ring is one of the 3 Elven rings and will soon be called to... oh, wait, wrong book. The cave is at Hogwarts, hidden under the lake, or under the cliff. The boat may not actually be gold, but just glowing from reflected light. The cave and pensieve are in the Chamber of Secrets, which can be explored now that the basilisk is gone, and the pensieve is Tom Riddle's. Harry and Ron do some sort of blood-brother bond ritual. One arm looks a bit older; that's the HBP passing his powers on to Harry. Hermione and Ron finally hold hands, and sparks fly. Harry and Voldemort resolve their battles with a 'thumb war'. heather the buzzard From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Fri Jun 10 14:59:58 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:59:58 -0000 Subject: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler?) In-Reply-To: <42A89E6D.7060909@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130436 > Chancie wrote: > > This picture in addition to Bloomsbury having spider > >webs on its site, and the title "Spinner End" can all point > >to Aragog. heather adds: > There is something she [JKR] said Harry will learn more > about that he first discovered in COS... I suppose that could > have to do with Aragog... but what could Aragog know? He came > to Britain as a baby, I don't think he's ever known anything > except Hagrid and the forbidden forest. But if Aragog is the link, then maybe Hagrid is the Half-BLood Prince. As Heather wrote, all Aragog knew was Hagrid and the forest. And Hagrid is half-giant/half-human so the half-blood thing applies to him. Rachael P.S. sorry if someone's already mentioned this, but I'm new to the group and it's pretty impossible to catch up on everything that's been written From tab1669 at elnet.com Fri Jun 10 17:08:14 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:08:14 -0000 Subject: If Dumbledore dies...... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130437 People keep saying that Dumbledore is going to die. I feel if Dumbledore dies then LV has no one to fear. Dumbledore is the only reason it has taken LV a long time to regain his powers. If Dumbledore dies then Lv can do what ever he wants to do. Harry has no change without Dumbledore alive. If Dumbledore gone who is going to run the order to stop LV. They might as well all kiss their safety goodbye. IMO If LV does murder Dumbledore killing every other person is going to be like taking candy from a baby. LV would not let anything stop him once he defeated Dumbledore. flyingmonkeypurple From srbecca at hotmail.com Fri Jun 10 17:16:55 2005 From: srbecca at hotmail.com (Rebecca Dreiling) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:16:55 +0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130438 Chancie wrote: Hi, with all the talks of what's on the covers, I thoughts some of you might like to see the full cover of the UK edition of HBP. they removed the summary from the back as well. That's more like it. I am used to the UK/Canada covers. Now that I'm in the States I'll have to settle for the US cover. It seems a little more action packed does it not! How exciting! I'd say it is right up there with the GoF UK/Canada edition as far as action is concerned. I might just have to order from Canada! "srbecca" From brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org Fri Jun 10 18:50:39 2005 From: brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org (Wilson, Bruce) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:50:39 -0400 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) Message-ID: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C56BA@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> No: HPFGUIDX 130439 > Alisha (madorganization) wrote: > I do, however, agree that this does not preclude him from living. > He may live, but he will never be the same again. [Wilson, Bruce]: Of course he won't be "the same" again. Whatever our experiences are we are not "the same." As the old Greek philosopher said, 'panta rhe'--everything flows; you can't step into the same river twice. In Christian terms it is the difference between Jesus coming down off of the cross and Jesus enduring the cross, death, burial, descent to the underworld---and then bursting out of the Tomb on Easter Sunday. BAW From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 19:07:45 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:07:45 -0000 Subject: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stargzrsteve" wrote: > > > > > > > > >~*S*~ > > >~*P*~ > > >~*O*~ > > >~*I*~ > > >~*L*~ > > >~*E*~ > > >~*R*~ > > > > > >~*~*~*SPACE*~*~*~ > > > > stargazer wonders: Does the inclusion of Dumbledore on three different covers indicate a more active role for the headmaster? What if Dumbledore is around Harry more because he is teaching him something. If the UK Adult cover with the Advance Potion Making text is added to the mix I have to wonder if perhaps Dumbledore isn't teaching Potions in HBP. This could be the year Snape gets the DADA position, leaving Dumbledore with Potions. Tonks: I think DD is going to pass along some secrets to Harry. And because everyone thinks that DD is going to die and the DADA position is cursed anyway it would make sense that DD might teach DADA to the advanced students. As to the book cover, here are my first impressions: Looks like 2 boys hand wresting with lighting entwining them. Maybe Harry and Tom? A boat on a rock in a cave with writing on the wall. A stone Pensive? On a column with claw feet on a round flat stone with lines one it. Reminds me of a Necromancers circle without the protective markings. Could this be a part of the Chamber of Secrets that we have not seen? Why would DD allow a Chamber like that to be at Hogwarts now that He knows where it is. Wouldn't he do something to try to destroy it? I wouldn't want a dangerous room like that lurking in my castle. Maybe this isn't the only hidden room in the castle. Maybe GG also left a secret room behind. It would make sense that is would be under the lake since I see the lake as the symbol of the water of baptism when the first years come to the castle by boat, but they don't after the first year. Whatever happens in HBP must be pretty impressive by the look of the front of the cover. We are going to see even more of DD's power. He is my hero so I am looking forward to this even if he dies in the end. I don't think he will stay dead. Maybe he is the half-blood prince. Tonks_op From lhuntley at fandm.edu Fri Jun 10 19:07:56 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:07:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] If Dumbledore dies...... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80ab27e161696b3f4e039900d42b2a25@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 130441 Flyingmonkeypurple: > People keep saying that Dumbledore is going to die. > I feel if Dumbledore dies then LV has no one to fear. I think you've sort of missed the whole point. *Harry* is the only one who can permanently defeat LV (and I do think LV knows or suspects that, and is at least a *little* perturbed), and in order for him to meaningfully fulfill this role, the "safety" needs to be turned off. That is, Dumbledore has to be out of the picture -- dead, captured, in a coma, whathaveyou. > Dumbledore > is the only reason it has taken LV a long time to regain his powers. Er . . . canon? If we take the books at face-value (and, indeed, Dumbledore's *words* at face-value), Harry is the reason why it has taken LV a long time to regain his powers. Now, you may argue that Dumbledore has been out there, fighting the good fight, striking down Vapor!Voldy at every turn, but such speculation would be purely . . . well, speculative. Indeed, the books (and, again, Dumbledore) suggest that Voldy has been in *hiding* for a decade when Harry comes to Hogwarts. The good guys don't really know what he is doing or where he is -- they suspect he will be back, of course, but being on guard hardly counts as thwarting anything. At the end PS/SS Dumbledore tells Harry that while his efforts have not done away with Voldemort for good, they *have* succeeded setting him back. I agree with him -- throughout the books, any temporary "defeat" of Voldy has been mainly Harry's doing. (Interestingly, in the passage I am refering to, Dumbledore goes on to mislead Harry quite thoroughly WRT to what we know about the Prophecy -- he says that if good people keep setting Voldy back, he may never regain power. However, we now know that Dumbledore *knows* Harry's going to have to meet Voldy and either kill or be killed. Hrm.) > If Dumbledore dies then Lv can do what ever he wants to do. Harry > has no change without Dumbledore alive. I'd argue that it'd be a pretty dull, pointless sort of ending to have Harry defeat Voldemort -- but only with Dumbledore watching over his shoulder. Kind of goes against the whole plot of the book, doesn't it? > If Dumbledore gone who is > going to run the order to stop LV. They might as well all kiss their > safety goodbye. IMO If LV does murder Dumbledore killing every other > person is going to be like taking candy from a baby. LV would not > let anything stop him once he defeated Dumbledore. Agreed. Dumbledore's death/incapacitation will definitely raise the ante. Yet, Dumbledore *will* be defeated -- in some form -- before the climax of the series. It *has* to be this way -- otherwise how can Harry really be the hero? Remember, this isn't Dumbledore's story. It's not even the story of his generation or Harry's parent's generation. Eventually, the "all-powerful" adults will have to be removed so that the younger generation of heroes can save their world for themselves. Laura http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 10 19:15:48 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:15:48 -0000 Subject: If Dumbledore dies...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130442 > flyingmonkeypurple: > People keep saying that Dumbledore is going to die. JLV: True, but it is just a rumour. > I feel if Dumbledore dies then LV has no one to fear. JLV: Except our hero Harry Potter! Hasn't he learnt anything from Godric's Hollow? Well, perhaps not... > flyingmonkeypurple: Dumbledore > is the only reason it has taken LV a long time to regain his powers. JLV: I'm sure Harry did help at first, at least during PS and CoS. the outcomes of PoA and GoF (which weren't great on the surface) may come to be useful when the time comes to defeat Voldie. > flyingmonkeypurple: > If Dumbledore dies then Lv can do what ever he wants to do. Harry > has no change without Dumbledore alive. If Dumbledore gone who is > going to run the order to stop LV. JLV: Harry can - he already has his own version of the Order - the DA - and I'm sure that, now he's older, Harry will be capable of going it alone. He has many of Voldemort's own special powers and he is capable of becoming a very powerful wizard. If he can just... keep... calm... > flyingmonkeypurple: They might as well all kiss their > safety goodbye. JLV: It will be dangerous, yes, (and exciting for us readers) but I'm sure Harry will pull through. He has to if the Good is to win over the Evil. > flyingmonkeypurple: > IMO If LV does murder Dumbledore killing every other > person is going to be like taking candy from a baby. LV would not > let anything stop him once he defeated Dumbledore. JLV: Except Harry - seriously - the series is about Harry Potter, not Dumbledore. It *will* be down to Harry alone in the end. Dumbledore will *not* step in in the final battle. This is Harry's destiny, and his alone. I am sure of this (still it is JMHO!) And anyway, if Dumbledore does bite the big one, who says he has to be murdered by Voldemort? Why can't he pass away of old age - it must happen to some wizards and he is very old. The narrative occasionally notes that Harry has noticed how very old Dumbledore looks. I'm sure Dumbledore would prefer to pass peacefully than be blown up... at least *I* would. And anyway, I hope Dumbledore doesn't buy the farm, but I can see that if he did, it wouldn't (literally) be the end of the world. Just My Opinion, JLV xx From lhuntley at fandm.edu Fri Jun 10 19:27:34 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:27:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP: Full UK Cover In-Reply-To: <8c3e36655588e7301a99661f2bf054a0@fandm.edu> References: <16f97a6a3c06aa845c5b3369b08a5533@fandm.edu> <8c3e36655588e7301a99661f2bf054a0@fandm.edu> Message-ID: <04eaae35732fd53482f496c39c7eae79@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 130443 Ah, pathetically replying to my own post -- but I did find the passage that I referred to in my post-script. Read on, if you're interested. * * * * * * * * S P O I L E R S * * * * * * * I said: > P.S. Did JKR say that she originally had Harry being discovered on an > island by Hermione's father (who lived on the mainland)? I'm sure I > heard something to that effect. Perhaps the boat has to do with > Godric's Hollow. Quoted from JKR's website, 'Extras' section: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=1 *** The very, very earliest drafts of the first chapter of 'Philosopher's Stone' have the Potters living on a remote island, Hermione's family living on the mainland, her father spotting something that resembles an explosion out at sea and sailing out in a storm to find their bodies in the ruins of their house. I can't remember now why I thought this was a good idea, but I clearly recognised that it wasn't fairly early on, because the Potters were re-located to Godric's Hollow for all subsequent drafts *** This would imply that Godric's Hollow is not, in fact, on an island and that the whole boat/baby!Harry scenario was scrapped. Too bad, I was likin' it -- it was nice and consistent with the theory that we'd be seeing more of the Godric's Hollow events in the Pensieve. Sigh. Laura (who apologizes for not finding this quote *before* she sent her first post on the subject.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From angellima at xtra.co.nz Fri Jun 10 19:21:56 2005 From: angellima at xtra.co.nz (Angel Lima) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:21:56 +1200 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... Message-ID: <00c101c56df1$b5208380$894336d2@Angel> No: HPFGUIDX 130444 > ~*S*~ > ~*P*~ > ~*O*~ > ~*I*~ > ~*L*~ > ~*E*~ > ~*R*~ > > > SPACE > ************************************************ > > Chancie again: > I also wanted to add, that there are two hands connected > by what looks like a rope of fire, and just above the > title located on the spine, there is a ring. > Inkling: > By chance I spent a good part of this morning looking through > an illustrated book on the Grail Legends and when I saw the > full UK cover I nearly fell off my chair. A ring? I nearly fell off my chair too, inkling :) though for a different reason, no doubt. I think this is my second if not first post, so bear with me folks, if you please. :) The ring seems to hold an amethyst stone...to me. Not only is Amethyst known to protect (Harry waiting under the shade of a lilac tree for Dudley OotP) mainly the mind (from legilimens and Harry/Voldy link perhaps. Dumbledore often wears purple - even his pajamas are purple) it is also known to induce visions. Most common amethyst ring bearers like bishops wear it for such reasons. Amethyst also represents transformation. A change from what one was. Tonks the animorphmagi's hair is described as a violent shade of violet. Harry is continually changing but he's still a way to go, perhaps. Amethyst also heals or straightens maladies to do with the third eye (divination?) and crown (thoughts/memories/scar?). Now it could mean Dumbledore or whoever gives Harry the ring to clear his spiritual/mental blockages so they could visit Harry's memory in the pensieve of the events at GH, or the ring is given to unleash Harry's mental prowess, he could well be a seer, or at least gauge Voldy's plans, and this is a terrible stretch I know... but I think it could heal his scar - of its link to Voldemort (whereby Harry would lose the ability to speak parseltongue as well as feel Voldy's emotions etc)...if not physically as well. The amethyst in elixir form is used mainly to treat skeletal ailments (Remus?) but also against heart problems etc. Arm-wrestle My muggle mind sees it as Harry and Snape finally getting down with the get down ha! Pensieve Definitely a pensieve IMO, in the girl's bathroom at the entrance to the chamber of secrets for that chamber most definitely holds more than one secret. We're gonna be seeing Slythy again in some form, so it makes sense Gryffy makes an appearance also. "Angel Lima" From noesumeragi at yahoo.es Fri Jun 10 20:04:52 2005 From: noesumeragi at yahoo.es (noesumeragi) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:04:52 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: <42A9B2AB.60608@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130445 > >~*S*~ > >~*P*~ > >~*O*~ > >~*I*~ > >~*L*~ > >~*E*~ > >~*R*~ > heather the buzzard wrote: > The ring belongs to the half-blood prince and is some indicator of royalty. > The ring has a sort of serpentine look to it, so it's actually Voldemort's. noe now: well, it can be also seen as... a lighteing bolt, you know. Maybe it was some... royal mark? maybe the ring owner is who has taht kind of mark? But JKR said that the form of Harry's scar was not of importance, itself... > The cave is at Hogwarts, hidden under the lake, or under the cliff. > The boat may not actually be gold, but just glowing from reflected light. you know, all that greeninsh light... it seem a ghost boat, to me... maybe it means something from the past. > The cave and pensieve are in the Chamber of Secrets, which can be > explored now that the basilisk is gone, and the pensieve is Tom Riddle's. ok, first, it's that really a pensieve? It looks like one, but a lot bigger. Remember that Dumbledore's could be carried along, as the one Snape used (which I believe it was Dumbledore's, by the way) What kind of pensieve is this? I also believe that it is located in the Chamber of Secrets, but because it's Salazar Slytherin's pensieve. Old, half a man height, made of stone, bright with a greenish light... > One arm looks a bit older; that's the HBP passing his powers on to Harry. maybe Dumbledore passing his powers on to Harry? noe From alishak at spu.edu Fri Jun 10 20:18:10 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:18:10 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130446 > > JKR may be able to tell her story without having Harry die. That > > would work. It would also work to have Harry die to show that > > sacrifice is sometimes necessary for victory. I do think, however, > > that even if Harry lives, it won't be the happy ending most children > > are expecting. If JKR is to make this story believable and real, > > then Harry will never be the same again. We won't ever see that > > happy, healthy boy we met on the train to Hogwart's. To bring in a > > similar story, he'd have to be like Frodo, broken by his > > experience. > > Gerry > > The problem I have with these kind of theories is that people who > support them don't look at the stories themselves. You cannot take the > ending out of the stories and make a general point. > > The ending is good and fitting, because *it fits the story* not > because this is what people supposedly need to hear. Harry is not > Frodo. LoTR is not HP. Frodo starts out as a normal, happy hobbit, > part of the shire who during the books gets more and more isolated > because of his experiences. This trend starts at Weathertop where he > is hit by the Nazgul sword and continues throughout the novels. That > Frodo cannot settle in the Shire is completely logical. You can see it > coming halfway through the story and even before. Sam, Pippin and > Merry, who also have quite a bit of nasty experiences can fit in > though. Not in the same way as before they went, they changed a great > deal. But they are actually better for it. > > Harry starts out completely isolated, and as Laura pointed out, what > he learns in the story is connecting, healing himself. Now if JKR > would go for the Frodo ending, she would need to make Harry disconnect > himself from his friends and the WW pretty quickly to make it > believable. I don't think it likely though. In OoP he was at his most > disconnected, had the terrible experience of Sirus dying, and in what > way the book ends: In him connecting with Luna, both sharing the > experience of having a loved on die. > > To paraphrase Laura: Lord of the Rings is already written, just as > Narnia, Hamlet or the bible and I really do not think JKR needs to > imitate others to make a believable ending to the story. > > Gerry Alisha: As I mentioned in response to Laura's post, I'm not at all arguing that JKR needs to end the book this way. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be written off as unbelievable or inappropriate. I don't think that Harry will end up /exactly/ like Frodo, I was merely using him as an example of the style of ending that we could have, where Harry has to lose /something/ (as Frodo had to lose the Shire to save it for others) in order to achieve final victory, something really important to him, possibly, though not necesarrily, his life. -Alisha: who didn't realize she was opening such a big can of worms by suggesting we all keep our minds open to differing possibilities. From alishak at spu.edu Fri Jun 10 20:38:55 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:38:55 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: <5fe5a3e2657c2d2fd0bff1b90a35cbcb@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130447 > > Alisha: > > Wow, that really got my defenses up, so I'll try to keep calm about > > this.? I never said that happy endings made the difference between > > fiction and literature.? I said that literature tells us what we > > need to hear as opposed to what we want to hear.? > > K: I don't know that I agree on this point. I don't think that > "literature" always has to serve some artificially ennobled calling, > like making us Aware Of The Plight Of Others. I think that is an > artificial construct papered together by universities and Serious > Authors. To my way of thinking, books are like trains; they are > there to take the reader on a journey. Sometimes you want to get on > the train to go to a fun place, like the shore. Other times you may > want to get on to go to visit an elderly aunt or fulfill a court date > in another town. One train isn't better than the other. They both > serve a purpose. > > My hope for this lifetime is to see the false snobbery about Literature > vs. Novels abolished. Not every damn book has to be Theodore Dreiser, > and not every book that isn't about Man's Inhumanity To Man is trash. > Alisha: We're just going to have to disagree on this one. By the way, I never once suggested that fiction as opposed to literature was trash. I enjoy a good, entertaining book as much as the next person. I just think that there is a time and place for both. > > > Sometimes we need > > to hear that Elizabeth Bennet, for all her poor upbringing and > > uncouth family, wins the heart of Darcy and goes on to do great and > > noble things with her new position.? Sometimes we need to know that > > good people have good things happen to them. > > > K : And sometimes we are adults who can figure out what we need on our > own, without being preached at by an Author Who Knows Better. So, we > put down the electric bill and the phone bill and turn off the news of > the latest explosions and pick up a book to take the train to the > seaside for twenty minutes or so. Alisha: And sometimes we can realize that when we want to hear a certain viewpoint we read a certain book and when we want another one we read another one, but either way, we are being preached at by an Author Who Knows Better. > > [This is my problem with Oprah's book club. Every book is about > someone being raped or killed or dying of AIDS. Now she's abandoned > all pretense and embraced Faulkner. Oprah may have an easy enough > life to routinely depress herself when she reads. I do not.] > Alisha: Again, I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on this. The purpose of reading a book about rape or AIDs or something like that is not to depress oneself. It is, partially, to experience catharsis (a cleansing of one's emotions by experiencing the emotions of others). > > ? And sometimes it's > > true, that does happen.? However, a happy ending does not > > necessarily make a good ending. > > K: Is this the castor oil school of reading? "The boy dies, but it's > GOOD for you, so read it and heal!!!!" > > I'd compare this case to _The Sisterhood Of The Travelling Pants_. Both > are books with young people, and both deal honestly and upfront with > death. Both books end happily, even though there is much grieving > along the way. I don't see why this is a bad thing. Alisha: Again, I never said this was a bad thing. Sometimes you need a happy ending, and sometimes you need a sad one. > > > ? Harry Potter's story is a > > distinctly moral story (not religious, not allegorical, just > > moral).? Therefore it is necessary that Good triumph over Evil in > > the end.? It is not, however, necessary that Harry lives and > > Voldemort dies.? > > K: It may not be necessary for the structure of the story, but I think > it is necessary for the theme of the story, as I've mentioned > previously. These are stories about maturity and ad hoc families. > They are not stories about Christology, and Harry Potter is NOT Sydney > Carton. > > > > > Think of Hamlet (depressing, I know).? Hamlet > > doesn't survive the story, but he takes down his unscrupulous mother > > and his villainous uncle before he goes.? > > K: Hamlet is a different story altogether. It is a tragedy that is > clearly played that way from beginning to end. It is a populist play > designed to offer the audience the Schadenfreude of seeing that the > Royals in the Palace are even more snafu'd then they are. When you > were living in the dirt and crossing rivers of urine to buy spoiled > meat, this kind of play had an odd sense of feelgood about it. You > went in _knowing_ that everyone was toast. > > Harry Potter is not structured this way at all. > Alisha: If that's really what you think about Hamlet, good for you. An example is not a one to one ratio comparison. It is a jumping off point. > > > That's what's important.? > > JKR may be able to tell her story without having Harry die.? That > > would work.? It would also work to have Harry die to show that > > sacrifice is sometimes necessary for victory.? > > > K: I think she shows that in numerous ways, but also shows the hero > still standing for a purpose. > > > I do think, however, > > that even if Harry lives, it won't be the happy ending most children > > are expecting.? If JKR is to make this story believable and real, > > then Harry will never be the same again.? We won't ever see that > > happy, healthy boy we met on the train to Hogwart's. > > K: What books are you reading? On that first train to Hogwart's, > Harry was newly happy, and not all that healthy. He was undernourished > and maladjusted. Dumbledore even comments on it later. Unlike Frodo, > who lived for many decades in the somnolent peace of the Shire, Harry > had a rough go from the beginning. Unlike Frodo, who lazed around > with his friends for months before starting on his journey, Harry is > thrown right in. > > Frodo is an allegorical character who embodies the lost hopes of all > the young men who left Britain to fight a war they didn't understand > against a tyrant they feared. They came back to an island that had > been despoiled by the tentacles of that war and realized that the realm > for which they watched their friends die would never return. That's > the story Tolkein wrote from his own experiences, viewed through the > lens of his Catholicsm; a religion that celebrates the sacrifice of > Christ. Alisha: Allegory is the forbidden word when dealing with Tolkien. He despised it in all forms (which is why he didn't like the Narnia Chronicles, though C.S. Lewis was his best friend). Many people try to argue that LOTR was an allegory of WWII, but it simply doesn't hold water. For that matter, Harry Potter could be seen the same way. (LV=Hitler, etc.) And the idea of losing something to help others is a theme carried through much classical (and pre-Christian) literature. Think of the Iliad and the Aeneid. > > As I've opined previously, Rowling is writing phase 2 of what Tolkein > wrote. She grew up in that Britain, on whose empire the sun now > routinely sets. Think of the Harry Potter novels not as twins to the > Tolkein works but as a protracted playing out of the Cleansing of the > Shire. Britain's problems are no longer with Mordor (Germany), but > with its own outmoded class system. The snobby Purebloods are Sharkey, > and the Halfbloods, Muggleborns, etc. are the Hobbits. > > So many people seem to be caught up in the Campbellized version of the > Hero's Journey that I think they will be disappointed if Harry > _doesn't_ end up paying some grave psychic price and spending his > twilight years in a dodgy tower block with a needle and cookspoon. > Alisha: It's not Campbell that has given us this idea. It's human experience. People who go through the sorts of ordeals that Harry has gone through do experience trauma. This is what so many people are arguing to explain CAPSLOCK!Harry from OotP. Something inside him must change. The experiences he's had mean he will never be able to experience the normal growing up period he would need to be a completely well-adjusted adult. > > ? To bring in a > > similar story, he'd have to be like Frodo, broken by his > > experience.? > > > > -Alisha > > > > " 'But.' said Sam, and tears started in his eyes, 'I thought you > > were going to enjoy the Shire, too, for years and years, after all > > you have done.' > > 'So I thought too, once. But I have been deeply hurt, Sam. I tried > > to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must > > often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give > > them up, lose them, so that others may keep them.'" > > > > J.R.R. Tolkien > > Return of the King > > > > > > K: As an aside, I think that there can be a small allegory made to the > Hobbits thusly: > > Sam=Harry > Merry=Hermione > Pippin=Ron > Frodo=Dumbledore > > That is why I have always thought that Dumbledore will take the ship to > the Grayhavens. Er, die, I mean. > > Katherine, who is of the Neil Stephenson/Stephen King school of > Fictional Equivalences. > > Alisha: If you are so opposed to my using LOTR as a comparison for HP, I wonder that you would use this allegory to predict DD's end. It seems a bit double-standardish to me. -Alisha: who is weary with having to explain again that this is only my reasoning for why we /might/ not end up with a healthy, happy and alive Harry. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 20:39:35 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP: Full UK Cover In-Reply-To: <8c3e36655588e7301a99661f2bf054a0@fandm.edu> Message-ID: <20050610203935.13614.qmail@web32712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130448 Laura wrote: *crosses fingers and hopes she is complying with the spoiler guidelines* * * * * * * * * S P O I L E R S * * * * * * * Ahem. It's the Pensieve! It's a glowing boat! It's a funky black-gemmed ring with a lightning bolt emblazoned on it! It's . . . two fellas holding hands! *maniacal grin* Please, someone, discuss. I need a nice elaborate theory on what all of this means, and I'm too excited/apprehensive/elated/worried to come up with one on my own. Lynn: Oh, this is an easy one. The ring is the wedding ring Harry is going to give to his bride. The boat is the vehicle they use to go to the secret wedding chamber, in the center of which is the basin where water of everlasting love is kept. They will each dip their hands in the basin, after which they will hold hands and the fiery rope will bind them together to symbolize their undying love. So, just whose hand is Harry holding? Well, it looks like Harry is going for an older woman so I'd say - Madam Bones! Lynn (who's feeling a bit silly today) test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 10 20:48:32 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:48:32 -0000 Subject: HBP: Full UK Cover In-Reply-To: <20050610203935.13614.qmail@web32712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130449 * * * * * S P O I L E R S * * * * * * Lynn: Oh, this is an easy one. The ring is the wedding ring Harry is going to give to his bride. The boat is the vehicle they use to go to the secret wedding chamber, in the center of which is the basin where water of everlasting love is kept. They will each dip their hands in the basin, after which they will hold hands and the fiery rope will bind them together to symbolize their undying love. Lynn (who's feeling a bit silly today) Oh - it all makes sense now! And the basin is clearly atop the legendary Pillar of Storg?! JLV xx From adesahafford at wmconnect.com Fri Jun 10 20:39:10 2005 From: adesahafford at wmconnect.com (Adesa) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:39:10 -0000 Subject: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130450 * * * S P O I L E R * * * Tonks_op: On a column with claw feet on a round flat stone with lines one it. Adesa: Those claws sure do look dragon-like to me. Will we finally start learning those uses for dragons' blood? Is that what Dumbledore will teach Harry? If so, then I'd guess Snape gets DADA and Dumbledore takes over Potions, and Harry will finally excel at it. Adesa From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 10 21:34:57 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:34:57 -0000 Subject: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130451 > Tonks: > As to the book cover, here are my first impressions: > A boat on a rock in a cave with writing on the wall. A stone > Pensive? On a column with claw feet on a round flat stone with > lines one it. Reminds me of a Necromancers circle without the > protective markings. Could this be a part of the Chamber of > Secrets that we have not seen? SSSusan: YES! My thought exactly, Tonks! This could be something else down there -- after all, how many of us have wondered about the Chamber of Secret*s*? What else could we need to know about it? I was also pleased to see that this pensieve also seems to be exuding *greenish* light, which adds to my belief that what we're going to see in that pensieve is the attacks on Godric's Hollow. (The greenish cast is from the AKs, imo.) Siriusly Snapey Susan From k.coble at comcast.net Fri Jun 10 19:38:29 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:38:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Writing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7996d1d4369fe48443771a1fb757cf5d@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130452 On Jun 10, 2005, at 1:40 PM, madorganization wrote: > > Alisha: > > Alisha: > I disagree here.? I love to write "fiction".? I am very good at > coming up with stories that are interesting.? My problem is that > when I'm finished, any workshopping I've ever had done on my pieces > seems to bring up the same issue.? "What's at stake here?"? IOW, why > is this important?? A story, or a piece of fiction can be > interesting, entertaining, even moral, but in order for it to be > literature (something that has the ability to survive into future > generations as a work worthy of in-depth discussion) it must have > some theme or deeper significance from the author. K: No offense, but this sounds exactly like something from a workshop or a tenured professor. It's the kind of ivory tower thinking that makes a lot of writers afraid to write. I've had countless workshops, countless literature classes and they all say the same thing. It's as though they approach writing like alchemy, and aren't satisfied unless they've got pure gold. I've been writing for 20 years and had two small books published (both non-fiction.) There are those who Write Literature, and starve. There are those who write what they love to write, make a decent living, and make books that other people like to enjoy. Neal Stephenson addresses this best in the Slashdot interview he gave here: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/20/1518217 I highly recommend it as reading for anyone who wants to be an author. I'm pleased to be friends with many published fiction authors, and we discuss this a great deal. To a (wo)man they will tell you that the first thing you need to do is forget 90% of what you've been taught in school and workshops and just write because you love it. > ? Often times the > author may not be aware of what this is, but it should still be > there.? I see the difference between "fiction" and "literature" to > be similar to the difference between Art and something that is > artistic.? I do collages, that's artistic.? It requires a certain > asthetic sense, but I'm not an artist.? I don't seek for anything > beyond beauty in my work.? I think literature has to be more than > just a good book, it has to have larger social implications.? > K: No. That's what you've been told by clinicians and professors. It's simply not the case. Look at Beethoven's 9th Symphony--written to express joy and beauty and the love of music. It endures because we can feel those things through the centuries. > I have to be honest here.? I really don't think Harry Potter falls > into the literature category.? I love it, and it is exceptionally > good fiction, but I still don't see it as literature. > K: Thank God. Let Jonathan Franzen and A.S. Byatt do that type of thing, with all of the exhausting sex [1] and Meaning Of Life that no one will talk about outside of Twentieth Century Fiction 213. Let Harry Potter live in the hearts and minds of readers for generations. Like Little Women, Pride and Prejudice, To Kill a Mockingbird. All personal stories told by authors who wanted to share a piece of their life and joy. > > > Alisha:who's spent the last 4 years studying "literature" and > wouldn't mind if she got to have a happy, fluffy ending for once, > just not with this series. > > K: Take it from someone who has been down that road. Stop studying "literature" and start reading books. It'll make you a far better writer than dissecting the symbolism of Willa Cather. Katherine [1] http://www.countercurrents.org/arts-byatt110703.htm "I know that part of the reason I read Tolkien when I'm ill is that there is an almost total absence of sexuality in his world, which is restful." ----- I just want to know what kind of sex she's having that is so stressful?!?!? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tab1669 at elnet.com Fri Jun 10 21:21:39 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:21:39 -0000 Subject: If Dumbledore dies...... In-Reply-To: <80ab27e161696b3f4e039900d42b2a25@fandm.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130453 > Flyingmonkeypurple: > > People keep saying that Dumbledore is going to die. > > I feel if Dumbledore dies then LV has no one to fear. Laura wrote: > I think you've sort of missed the whole point. *Harry* is the > only one who can permanently defeat LV (and I do think LV knows > or suspects that, and is at least a *little* perturbed), and in > order for him to meaningfully fulfill this role, the "safety" > needs to be turned off. Flyingmonkey writes back: I never said that Dumbledore has to kill LV in the end. If Dumbledore dies then LV will know he has defeated the one wizard everyone thought was such a great wizard. Flyingmonkeypurple: > > If Dumbledore dies then LV can do what ever he wants to do. > > Harry has no chance without Dumbledore alive. Laura: > I'd argue that it'd be a pretty dull, pointless sort of ending > to have Harry defeat Voldemort -- but only with Dumbledore > watching over his shoulder. Kind of goes against the whole > plot of the book, doesn't it? Flyingmonkeypurple writes back: Harry looks at Dumbledore as his mentor. He needs him there for support. I just don't see Harry killing LV without hearing Dumbledore saying something wise at the end of the book or anything. > Flyingmonkeypurple: > > IMO If LV does murder Dumbledore killing every other > > person is going to be like taking candy from a baby. LV would > > not let anything stop him once he defeated Dumbledore. Laura: > Agreed. Dumbledore's death/incapacitation will definitely > raise the ante. Yet, Dumbledore *will* be defeated -- in some > form -- before the climax of the series. It *has* to be this > way -- otherwise how can Harry really be the hero? Remember, > this isn't Dumbledore's story. It's not even the story of his > generation or Harry's parent's generation. Eventually, the > "all-powerful" adults will have to be removed so that the > younger generation of heroes can save their world for > themselves. Flingmonkeypurple writes back: I know Harry has to kill LV in the end. How is Dumbledore being have to do with Harry being a Hero. All the times Harry was agents LV Dumbledore did not tell Harry what to do. If all the adults are gone imo what would this bring Harry except the knowledge that he killed LV? All the people that worked for this are dead. Flyingmonkeypurple From anurim at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 21:53:25 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050610215325.48062.qmail@web32607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130454 S P O I L E R --- noesumeragi wrote: > you know, all that greeninsh light... it seem a > ghost boat, to me... > maybe it means something from the past. > > I also believe that it is located in the Chamber of > Secrets, but > because it's Salazar Slytherin's pensieve. Old, half > a man height, > made of stone, bright with a greenish light... In my prediction contest entry, I said that the object on the cover of the US version belongs to the CoS because when Harry enters the room in Book 2, he notices a strange kind of green fumes filling it. Now, Ron says that the Chamber is probably well below the lake. The lake is there, so far, for almost no specific purpose, except to try the candidates in the Triwizard Tournament. I am sure there will be a more important role to it. All in all, we can connect the two and say that perhaps what we see on the cover is an underground bay, which perhaps has the entrance through the Chamber of Secrets. Or perhaps Dumbledore remodelled the chamber as this cave. Or perhaps Gryffindor left a secret chamber as well. Come to think of it, it is more than obvious: the cover describes an underground bay which is... The Godric Hollow! Hollow, because it is cave-like. Godric, because Gryffindor inherited or built it. We know Hagrid reached Harry to tell him about Hogwarts by flying over a lake. Could it be that he reached Harry first and saved him from the ruins of the house in exactly the same setting? Perhaps not just, but it is an idea. One more guess: Lily's green eyes have something to do with the water. Harry inherited this something-to-do. I venture that the lake surrounding Hogwarts is what keeps Harry safe at the school, besides Dumbledore. Any other ideas along these lines? Mira PS: Did Godric have a scar as well? If yes, how did he gain it? __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From anurim at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 21:58:52 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Writing In-Reply-To: <7996d1d4369fe48443771a1fb757cf5d@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20050610215852.41751.qmail@web32606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130455 --- Katherine Coble wrote: > K: Thank God. Let Jonathan Franzen and A.S. Byatt > do that type of > thing, with all of the exhausting sex [1] and > Meaning Of Life that no > one will talk about outside of Twentieth Century > Fiction 213. Let > Harry Potter live in the hearts and minds of readers > for generations. > Like Little Women, Pride and Prejudice, To Kill a > Mockingbird. All > personal stories told by authors who wanted to share > a piece of their > life and joy. I love what you say here, Katherine. I don't have literature studies, but there are so many contemporary books who seem to me workshoped into complete inoffensiveness. The three books I read more often than all the others are the Little Prince, To kill a mockingbird and the HP series. They go straight into my heart and, at the very least, make me truly understand and love this world, and want to be better. Thanks for putting it so nicely. Mira __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 10 22:02:53 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:02:53 -0000 Subject: Occlumency and Spies (Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130456 >>Nora: >Occlumency is the least discrete *action* magic we've ever seen. Occlumency is not the act of pushing someone out of your mind so that they know they've been pushed out, or else it would be utterly ineffective for spying.< Betsy Hp: Aha! Now we're getting somewhere. Because I didn't realize you were coming at Occlumency from this angle. So, Occlumency as a spy's tool: I buy that. I think it's been useful for Snape. *However* I don't think that's what Snape is trying to teach Harry to do. IIRC Snape never tells Harry, "I felt you push me out!" or any such thing. In fact Snape overtly attacks Harry's mind and only praises Harry when Harry actively and overtly pushes him back out. Snape wants Harry to be efficient at pushing out intruders, but I don't recall any instruction that suggested he wanted Harry to be *subtle* about pushing out intruders. So, I don't think Snape or Dumbledore care if Voldemort realizes he can't get into Harry's mind. They just want to make sure Voldemort *cannot* get into Harry's mind, or if he does get in that Harry can recognize the intrusion and push him out. That's how I interpert the lessons, anyway. [And actually, if part of Dumbledore's plan was to get Voldemort desperate enough for the prophecy he'd risk going to the DoM himself (which I think was Dumbledore's plan) there'd be a certain advantage to quite noticably shutting the door on Harry, I would think.] >>Nora: >[This is, of course, making a small assumption that Occlumency is being used by Snape for spying--which I am under the impression you were a general partisan of. I can't imagine how Occlumency would be useful in a stealth situation if the Legilimens it was being used against really could *tell* that it was being used. This is admitted conjecture, but if you have a way around it. Snape had to have some way to keep his ass from getting fried iin the first war, and I can't see Voldemort not pulling out the big guns if he could tell someone was hiding things, even if he couldn't then tell what they were hiding.]< Betsy Hp: Oh yes, I'm a card caring member of the Spy!Snape school of thought . And I do think Snape uses Occlumency for this reason. However, being so much more advanced at it he can use it in a much more subtle fashion, is my thought. IOW Voldemort can tell if someone is lying merely by looking at them (another advanced Occlumency user), but Snape is able to block the lie from slipping out. I also feel that if Voldemort did dip into Snape's mind, Snape wouldn't use his Occlumency to push Voldemort out, he'd use it to hide certain secrets he needed to keep. For example, he may allow his anger and frustration with Harry (and Dumbledore's preoccupation with Harry) to float to the top of his mind, but cover up his worry for Harry's safety and his loyalty to Dumbledore. (I'm entering the land of pure speculation here.) Snape, IMO, is playing a much more dangerous game with Voldemort than what either Dumbledore or Snape wanted Harry to be involved with. So Snape needs to call on more subtle uses of the Occlumency art. Harry, again IMO, was free to use Occlumency as a bludgeon and was being taught to do so. >>Nora: > They can banish a Dementor--which is not depression in and of itself (an internal phenomenon) but an external being that JKR was inspired to create out of her experience of depression, which induces a state thereof. If depression itself were so easily banished, why was Sirius so unhappy all through OotP? (Fine distinctions, you know.)< Betsy Hp: Because once you get outside of magic, wizards and witches are just people. So Harry can call up a Patronus, but the death of Sirius still depresses him. Snape is a bang up Occlumentor, but he can still flip out and become an emotional wreck when confronted with the demons of his past. That's part of the reason I think JKR's magic is more practical than spiritual; it's a tool not a character builder. Betsy Hp From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 10 22:22:22 2005 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:22:22 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130457 alishak at spu.edu said: >If JKR is to make this story believable and real, >then Harry will never be the same again. We won't ever see that >happy, healthy boy we met on the train to Hogwart's. To bring in a >similar story, he'd have to be like Frodo, broken by his >experience. I definitely do not agree. We will never see the same person we met on the train to Hogwarts because that boy was an eleven-year-old orphan from a, to put it mildly, unsupportive family who'd just discovered his real background and potential. What we will see, I believe, is a grownup Harry Potter, wizard and hero. This in no way invalidates the possibility of that grownup living the life of a wizard (not an ordinary wizard, but Dumbledore, Krum, and others in the Wizarding World manage to be out of the ordinary and still have lives. Not to mention Fudge, Bagman, and Lockhart, each in their way ...). And can someone please explain to me why people claim it would be *better* literature, writing, or moral example if Harry died? I can see, although disagree with, the argument that it would be *just as good (assuming Voldemort was defeated by means of Harry's death),* but not that an unhappy ending with everyone miserable at the hero's funeral is somehow *superior* to a happy ending as a just reward for a hard-fought battle between good and evil. Janet Anderson From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Fri Jun 10 23:04:05 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:04:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42AA1C65.6000102@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130458 Janet Anderson wrote: > > And can someone please explain to me why people claim it would be *better* > literature, writing, or moral example if Harry died? That's one-part Dostoevschina (moral good can be only achieved through suffering) to two-parts intellectual snobbery (obviously happy-end will be more popular, so it must be less worthy). You can decide the percentage of sarcasm vs. seriousness in the above. Irene From ayaneva at aol.com Fri Jun 10 23:47:20 2005 From: ayaneva at aol.com (AyanEva) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:47:20 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130459 S P O I L E R S P O I L E R I do hope this is sufficient "spoiler space." --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "noesumeragi" wrote: Noe Responding to Heather the buzzard: > > heather the buzzard wrote: > > > The ring belongs to the half-blood prince and is some indicator of > royalty. > > The ring has a sort of serpentine look to it, so it's actually > Voldemort's. > > noe now: > well, it can be also seen as... a lighteing bolt, you know. Maybe it > was some... royal mark? maybe the ring owner is who has taht kind of > mark? But JKR said that the form of Harry's scar was not of > importance, itself... Now me responding to both Noe and Heather: A couple thoughts on the ring. The first thing that I thought when I looked at it was that it looks like a snake or cat eye. You know, the slitty pupil? However, I don't actually think it's supposed to bear any relation to Harry's lighting bolt scar; if it was, I would expect it to follow the same zigs and zags as his scar. The ring goes zag- zig-zag and Harry's scar goes zig-zag-zig. And I'd expect the ring to be green or something like his eyes. But that's just me and I'm probably completely wrong because I don't think JKR would give us so obvious a hint as a green zig-zag-zig ring anyway. So, it might be connected to Harry's scar, but then there's the whole thing, as Noe pointed out, about the shape of Harry's scar not being important. Ok, I think Heather is speaking right here again: > > The cave is at Hogwarts, hidden under the lake, or under the cliff. > > The boat may not actually be gold, but just glowing from reflected > light. > > you know, all that greeninsh light... it seem a ghost boat, to me... > maybe it means something from the past. > > The cave and pensieve are in the Chamber of Secrets, which can be > > explored now that the basilisk is gone, and the pensieve is Tom > Riddle's. Me again: I won't speculate on the pensieve (I think it's a pensieve too, despite it's size; or maybe some sort of wash basin or...*shrugs*). I too think that the scene with the boat and the basin may be the Chamber of Secrets. But maybe not; I'm wondering about the little boat. The boat reminds me of the boats that the First Years use to cross the lake into Hogwarts. Perhaps there's some branch of water or something that splits off from the path normally taken by the First Years. That would still put the scene on the cover under Hogwarts, but that's all I can get out of that. Noe (I think): ok, first, it's that really a pensieve? It looks like one, but a lot > bigger. Remember that Dumbledore's could be carried along, as the > one Snape used (which I believe it was Dumbledore's, by the way) Me: But I'm thinking it *is* a Pensieve because it seems like it may be the same bowl-ish object on the cover of the Scholastic version of the book (I think it's that one) where Harry and Dumbledore are looking perturbed and harried (no pun intended) and have their wands out. Maybe it's not the Pensive in the Bloomsbury edition that's big, maybe everything else is small. That's right folks, it was *really* Hobbits that built Hogwarts! I got nothin'. Noe: One arm looks a bit older; that's the HBP passing his powers on to > Harry. > > maybe Dumbledore passing his powers on to Harry? > Me: And about the arm. I don't know whose arm it is, but I'm almost certain it's not Dumbledore's...Ok, not *certain*, but I suspect that it's not. The robe that the figure is wearing looks like it's black in color; I've never seen Dumbledore wear black robes. It's always something gaudy, like bright purple with golden suns and singing Blue birds or something. Which brings me back to my favorite suspect, Snape. *readers groan in dismay* Yes, here I go again. I just can't help it! I'm just trying to put together all of the clues that we have from all of the covers and I'm biased. The cover of Bloomsbury adult version of the book just sticks in my mind. The Potions book *has* to mean something in relation to the other cover scenes. Is the liquid in a pensieve a potion? If it is, what special about this particular pensieve in the cavern? And if it's not a pensieve, is the liquid in the bowl *still* a potion? And why? And is the fire from the front cover with Dumbledore and Harry somehow related to the fire-looking stuff that twines around the two arms on the inside of the jacket? I think someone, not sure who, mentioned some kind of binding. It would be too easy for the joined hands connect to the front cover by being those of Dumbledore and Harry (and see my previous problem with the older hand being Dumbledore's). But what do I know? I don't know if anyone has posted this link. It's on Book 6 theories based on the covers and can be found at Mugglenet: http://www.mugglenet.com/books/futurebooks/hbpcoverart.shtml AyanEva From ayaneva at aol.com Sat Jun 11 00:26:29 2005 From: ayaneva at aol.com (AyanEva) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:26:29 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130460 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "AyanEva" wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > P > O > I > L > E > R >The cover of Bloomsbury adult version of the book > just sticks in my mind. The Potions book *has* to mean something in > relation to the other cover scenes. Is the liquid in a pensieve a > potion? If it is, what special about this particular pensieve in the > cavern? And if it's not a pensieve, is the liquid in the bowl *still* > a potion? And why? Darn, darn, darn. I don't know if it's against the rules to respond to your own post, but I had intended to include this question in the post above and the query is too short for a new thread: Did we ever figure out whose name was on the cover of the potions book on the Bloomsbury adult? I still can't quite make it out... AyanEva From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Jun 11 00:36:51 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:36:51 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130461 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "AyanEva" wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > I do hope this is sufficient "spoiler space." > > > > > > > Which brings me back to my favorite suspect, Snape. *readers groan in > dismay* Yes, here I go again. I just can't help it! I'm just trying > to put together all of the clues that we have from all of the covers > and I'm biased. The cover of Bloomsbury adult version of the book > just sticks in my mind. The Potions book *has* to mean something in > relation to the other cover scenes. Is the liquid in a pensieve a > potion? If it is, what special about this particular pensieve in the > cavern? And if it's not a pensieve, is the liquid in the bowl *still* > a potion? And why? Well, no actually, there is no reason whatsoever the potions book should mean something in relation to other cover scenes. The cover art in the various editions is done by different artists who may well choose unrelated scenes from the books. Mary Gran Pre, who does the American cover art, says that JKR has no real involvement in the creation of the cover art. Rather, each artist reads a draft of the book and chooses a scene on which to base their art. When they are finished they forward a print to JKR who gives a thumbs up or thumbs down. The artists evidently don't communicate with each other and JKR does not try to coordinate their work. Lupinlore From ayaneva at aol.com Sat Jun 11 00:56:08 2005 From: ayaneva at aol.com (AyanEva) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:56:08 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130462 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "AyanEva" wrote: > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > I do hope this is sufficient "spoiler space." > > > >> > Well, no actually, there is no reason whatsoever the potions book > should mean something in relation to other cover scenes. The cover > art in the various editions is done by different artists who may well > choose unrelated scenes from the books. Mary Gran Pre, who does the > American cover art, says that JKR has no real involvement in the > creation of the cover art. Rather, each artist reads a draft of the > book and chooses a scene on which to base their art. When they are > finished they forward a print to JKR who gives a thumbs up or thumbs > down. The artists evidently don't communicate with each other and JKR > does not try to coordinate their work. > > > Lupinlore Just as you said, the artists read the *same* drafts and, presumably, choose something that they think is poignant for the cover art. And JKR approves said choice. It would seem to me that the scenes that the various artists choose to depict, being important and all (theoretically), AND approved by JKR, should provide some clues that can be pieced together. I'm making a huge leap of logic that all of the important bits in the book are interconnected, the artists choose from various bits that they feel are important and these are likely to *be* the actual important and interconnected bits (so far Gran Pre has been right on, so it's not such a far out theory). Therefore all of the covers should bear some relation to each other and hold important clues that connect together somehow. I admit that rather than going something like A-B-C-D, the covers could end up going B-F-I-Z, each element (or letter in this case) is important but huge chunks are missing that prevent us from figuring out any of the potential plot. But I really think the covers have something to do with each other and, taken together, can allude to more of the forthcoming story than just one cover studied alone. I love reading into things! Fruitless, but fun! *grin* AyanEva From nrenka at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 01:18:05 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:18:05 -0000 Subject: Occlumency and Spies (Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130463 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > *However* I don't think that's what Snape is trying to teach Harry > to do. IIRC Snape never tells Harry, "I felt you push me out!" or > any such thing. In fact Snape overtly attacks Harry's mind and > only praises Harry when Harry actively and overtly pushes him back > out. Snape wants Harry to be efficient at pushing out intruders, > but I don't recall any instruction that suggested he wanted Harry > to be *subtle* about pushing out intruders. My books are currently packed, so I'm not looking at anything either. I just found it to be very...interesting that Snape is very much aware of when he is 'in', and when he has been pushed out. It seems to me that, of course, the ultimate goal is to not let someone in at all rather than evicting them noisily; this informs my idea of Occlumency as a state that one is in (solid as a rock, I cannot be pushed over) rather than a thing that one does (push out the invader!). I would actually agree that some of it is that Snape is probably much better. In my general experience of these rough types of things, it's much faster and more effective to not teach it as the bludgeon, but to approach it indirectly. Here's another thought; since one can use Occlumency against Veritaserum, that also could be read as putting oneself into a condition rather than actively engaging in pushing out a foreign invader. It could have components of both, but they're not quite the same thing in how you generally go about it. > Betsy Hp: > Because once you get outside of magic, wizards and witches are just > people. So Harry can call up a Patronus, but the death of Sirius > still depresses him. Snape is a bang up Occlumentor, but he can > still flip out and become an emotional wreck when confronted with > the demons of his past. > > That's part of the reason I think JKR's magic is more practical > than spiritual; it's a tool not a character builder. Spiritual was your word, not mine, IIRC. I'm interested at present in the relationship of magic to psychological factors, which was illustrated with all the delightful material that you snipped out. :) JKR's magic and her ethical judgement of characters is heavily intention-based, after all. -Nora looks for someone to do push-hands with...anyone? From k.coble at comcast.net Fri Jun 10 21:04:02 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:04:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:LOTR/ Harry SPOILERS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6cde9677c159b9af1b5d2557e242685d@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130464 On Jun 10, 2005, at 3:38 PM, madorganization wrote: > K > > > My hope for this lifetime is to see the false snobbery about > Literature > > vs. Novels abolished.?? Not every damn book has to be Theodore > Dreiser, > > and not every book that isn't about Man's Inhumanity To Man is > trash. > > > > > Alisha: > We're just going to have to disagree on this one.? By the way, I > never once suggested that fiction as opposed to literature was > trash.? I enjoy a good, entertaining book as much as the next > person.? I just think that there is a time and place for both. > > K: It wasn't your suggestion per se. More a sentiment that permeates the current world of publishing and literary study. See my other post re. Writing. \ > > > K :? And sometimes we are adults who can figure out what we need > on our > > own, without being preached at by an Author Who Knows Better.?? > So, we > > put down the electric bill and the phone bill and turn off the > news of > > the latest explosions and pick up a book to take the train to the > > seaside for twenty minutes or so. > > Alisha: > And sometimes we can realize that when we want to hear a certain > viewpoint we read a certain book and when we want another one we > read another one, but either way, we are being preached at by an > Author Who Knows Better. > K: No. There is a difference between sharing an experience and being preached at. Harper Lee shares experiences. Maya Angelou preaches. Jane Austen shares experiences. James Joyce preaches. > > > > > [This is my problem with Oprah's book club.? Every book is about > > someone being? raped or killed or dying of AIDS.? Now she's > abandoned > > all pretense and embraced Faulkner.?? Oprah may have an easy > enough > > life to routinely depress herself when she reads.? I do not.] > > > > > Alisha: > Again, I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on this.? The purpose > of reading a book about rape or AIDs or something like that is not > to depress oneself.? It is, partially, to experience catharsis (a > cleansing of one's emotions by experiencing the emotions of others). > > K: I guess it's clear that our approaches to reading and writing are different. Which happens, believe me. > > > ? And sometimes it's > > >? true, that does happen.? However, a happy ending does not > > >? necessarily make a good ending. > > > > K:? Is this the castor oil school of reading?? "The boy dies, but > it's > > GOOD for you, so read it and heal!!!!" > > > > I'd compare this case to _The Sisterhood Of The Travelling Pants_. > Both > > are books with young people, and both deal honestly and upfront > with > > death.?? Both books end happily, even though there is much > grieving > > along the way.? I don't see why this is a bad thing. > > Alisha: > Again, I never said this was a bad thing.? Sometimes you need a > happy ending, and sometimes you need a sad one. > > > > > > Alisha: > If that's really what you think about Hamlet, good for you.? An > example is not a one to one ratio comparison.? It is a jumping off > point. > K: I think I've said before that I hate Hamlet. I really do. Trust me on this. I hate Hamlet and I love that they all die. > Alisha: > Allegory is the forbidden word when dealing with Tolkien.? K: It may be what he thought, but he still wrote from his experiences. > He > despised it in all forms (which is why he didn't like the Narnia > Chronicles, though C.S. Lewis was his best friend). K: He also perhaps didn't like that at the time Lewis had a larger audience and was more influential. I've always thought his whole "allegory is so beneath me" is an extension of the Ivory Tower philosophy I lament across the board. Lewis was very unOxbridge at times. > ? Many people try > to argue that LOTR was an allegory of WWII, but it simply doesn't > hold water.? K: Please note that I did not say the books were an allegory of WWII. I said that Frodo was an allegorical character. There is a difference. He is born of Tolkein's experiences in life, which just happened to be WWII. > For that matter, Harry Potter could be seen the same > way.? (LV=Hitler, etc.)? And the idea of losing something to help > others is a theme carried through much classical (and pre-Christian) > literature.? Think of the Iliad and the Aeneid.? > K: Yeah, I know. But since you've already said that HP isn't literature, I guess it's okay if the books have a happy ending, right? > > > > As I've opined previously, Rowling is writing phase 2 of what > Tolkein > > wrote.?? She grew up in that Britain, on whose empire the sun now > > routinely sets.?? Think of the Harry Potter novels not as twins to > the > > Tolkein works but as a protracted playing out of the Cleansing of > the > > Shire.?? Britain's problems are no longer with Mordor (Germany), > but > > with its own outmoded class system.? The snobby Purebloods are > Sharkey, > > and the Halfbloods, Muggleborns, etc. are the Hobbits. > > > > So many people seem to be caught up in the Campbellized version of > the > > Hero's? Journey that I think they will be disappointed if Harry > > _doesn't_ end up paying some grave psychic price and spending his > > twilight years in a dodgy tower block with a needle and cookspoon. > > > Alisha: > It's not Campbell that has given us this idea.? It's human > experience.? K: The larger portion of this list and other discussions reference Campbell to an astonishing extent. And yes, I've not said the experiences don't change him. I just don't think that the negative experiences preclude him reaching a happy conclusion. That's what I'm arguing here. I think that there are many folks on this list who believe that being through negative experiences means that one is unable to have a happy life. Or, as you say "broken by his experience." Many of us believe that he DOESN'T have to be broken utterly, merely matured. I think it is all the fashion these days to glory in the suffering of mankind and celebrate the broken hero. I don't want JKR to follow that fashion, and I presume from what I've read in this and other discussion forums that many are of the same mindset. > > > > > > > > K:? As an aside, I think that there can be a small allegory made > to the > > Hobbits thusly: > > > > Sam=Harry > > Merry=Hermione > > Pippin=Ron > > Frodo=Dumbledore > > > > That is why I have always thought that Dumbledore will take the > ship to > > the Grayhavens.? Er, die, I mean. > > > > Katherine, who is of the Neil Stephenson/Stephen King school of > > Fictional Equivalences. > > > > > Alisha: > If you are so opposed to my using LOTR as a comparison for HP, I > wonder that you would use this allegory to predict DD's end.? It > seems a bit double-standardish to me. > K: Please understand that I wasn't opposed to using LOTR as a comparison at all. I do it myself. I just am arguing with your reasoning that Harry=Frodo. I think it is a faulty comparison within the structure of the story. You argue that Harry will end up broken by his experiences and, by extension, that death or diminishment is a necessary next step. > -Alisha: who is weary with having to explain again that this is only > my reasoning for why we /might/ not end up with a healthy, happy and > alive Harry. > K: We all know the reasons. We are very familiar with Literary conventions. We are explaining again that a happy ending isn't the redheaded stepchild of world literature. I've given many examples that directly oppose your thesis. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 11 01:49:08 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:49:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42AA4314.1070803@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130465 AyanEva wrote: >Did we ever figure out whose name was on the cover of the potions book on the Bloomsbury adult? I still can't quite make it out... > > I made it out to be Libatius Borage... Libatius refering to drinkable things, and I believe Borage is a soothing plant-sourced compound? Borage oil comes to my mind, but I'm not 100% certain on that. heather the buzzard From vloe at dallasnews.com Sat Jun 11 01:24:31 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (firebird) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:24:31 -0000 Subject: Voldemort, dragon's blood and the AK curse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130466 Forgive me if this is an old subject, but does anyone think LV's experiments in immorality, which prevented his death that night in GH, might have involved dragon's blood? Seems to fit with the fact that curses rebound off dragons' hides. There would also be a neat irony if DD's discovery ended up preserving LV's life. firebird From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 03:11:51 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:11:51 -0000 Subject: Occlumency and Spies (Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130467 >>Nora: >My books are currently packed, so I'm not looking at anything either. I just found it to be very...interesting that Snape is very much aware of when he is 'in', and when he has been pushed out. It seems to me that, of course, the ultimate goal is to not let someone in at all rather than evicting them noisily; this informs my idea of Occlumency as a state that one is in (solid as a rock, I cannot be pushed over) rather than a thing that one does (push out the invader!).< Betsy Hp: I think part of the lesson was to recognize when you're being invaded -- hence Snape's obviousness at invading. And the other part was learning how to most efficiently push someone out. I would imagine that someone who practices Occlumency is not "on" all the time, but when they feel something tickling at their mind they can quickly throw up shields. Of course for Harry the main goal *was* pushing out the invader. And keeping him out. >>Nora: >Here's another thought; since one can use Occlumency against Veritaserum, that also could be read as putting oneself into a condition rather than actively engaging in pushing out a foreign invader. It could have components of both, but they're not quite the same thing in how you generally go about it.< Betsy Hp: This raises another thought. Did Barty Crouch, Jr. know Occlumency? One could see him needing such skills to so fully fool Dumbledore. And if he *did* know Occlumency it shows that it's something you have to call up. It's not always on. Otherwise, even dazed from Dumbledore's initial attack, I doubt he'd have folded so easily. (Of course this entire argument is based on one whopper of an assumption, so take it as you will. ) >>Betsy Hp: >That's part of the reason I think JKR's magic is more practical than spiritual; it's a tool not a character builder.< >>Nora: >Spiritual was your word, not mine, IIRC. I'm interested at present in the relationship of magic to psychological factors, which was illustrated with all the delightful material that you snipped out. :) JKR's magic and her ethical judgement of characters is heavily intention-based, after all.< Betsy Hp: Well, you brought up A.S. Byatt and she complained that JKR's magic wasn't numinous enough, that it was too mundane. (I'm assuming you brought up her views because yours are in agreement?) I'm just saying, yes JKR's magic is practical. I kind of like that about it. And honestly, I think the connection of JKR's magic to psychology is... simple. Or maybe heavy-handed is a better word? It's so overt as to be symbolic rather than subtle. But I think she makes good use of it. Betsy Hp From buffyeton at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 03:26:13 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:26:13 -0000 Subject: Entertainment in the WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130468 One of the main things I have noticed in the HP books is the lack of entertainment mentioned in the magic world. Television is talked about in the muggle world, but nothing like it in the wizard one. I find this incredibly unusual as most of the stories take place in what is essentially a high school. As most any former or current high school student can attest, a constant source of conversation is television, movies, music, celebrities and even books. Yet, there is little to none of these things at Hogwarts. Yes, there is a mention of the Weird Sisters, but other than that there is nothing. These things could most likely be chalked up to the fact that wizards don't use electricity, the mainstay of television, DVDs, and radios. Most unusual though is that Hermione, Harry and Ron do not read for pleasure, unless it is non- fiction such as the history of Quidditch. The only celebrity whom has appeared has been a non-fiction author. Does fiction not exist in the magically world? Or is it there, but Harry is just too busy for it, or feels his life is already enough like a novel that he doesn't need to read? Tamara From nrenka at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 03:44:49 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:44:49 -0000 Subject: Occlumency and Spies (Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130469 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy Hp: > Well, you brought up A.S. Byatt and she complained that JKR's magic > wasn't numinous enough, that it was too mundane. (I'm assuming you > brought up her views because yours are in agreement?) I'm just > saying, yes JKR's magic is practical. I kind of like that about it. > And honestly, I think the connection of JKR's magic to psychology > is... simple. You know what they say--when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. :) I'm not fond of Byatt's argument because it misses the point. I find the mundanity of the magic rather attractive. It means that I look far more for the psychological than the spiritual or symbolic, even-- and that's what drew me into my attempts at aiki explanation for Occlumency. -Nora posts shortly as a fine corrective From kc_bryantpelton at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 02:41:13 2005 From: kc_bryantpelton at yahoo.com (Kelly Pelton) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Marauder's Map Message-ID: <20050611024114.18307.qmail@web32708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130470 Just a quick question, does anyone know if the Chamber of Secrets appears on the Marauder's Map? Kelly? From fuzzlebub85 at aol.com Sat Jun 11 04:21:27 2005 From: fuzzlebub85 at aol.com (fuzzlebub85 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:21:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130471 Just a quick question, does anyone know if the Chamber of Secrets appears on the Marauder's Map? Kelly? Kaylee Tonks-Lupin here: I wouldn't think so. Sorry for not having the canon to prove it (help would be much appreciated) but I believe the MM would only show places the Marauders had visited, and as none of them were the Heir of Slytherin and there's no record of Basilisk attacks during the Marauders' time period, I highly doubt MWPP knew about it. Just my two Knuts, Kaylee [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jun 11 04:20:29 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:20:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map Message-ID: <216.29f7b7f.2fdbc08d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130472 In a message dated 6/10/2005 11:12:13 PM Central Standard Time, kc_bryantpelton at yahoo.com writes: Just a quick question, does anyone know if the Chamber of Secrets appears on the Marauder's Map? Kelly? I don't think that we know for certain but I rather doubt it. Since the map was made by the marauder's its my guess that it contains only areas that they would definitely have known existed. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sat Jun 11 04:32:32 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:32:32 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: <42AA4314.1070803@sympatico.ca> References: <42AA4314.1070803@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130473 ***********SPOILER****************** * S * P * O * I * L * E * R * * * * After looking at the image of the boat, I noticed that the reflection doesn't exactly match the object that is the boat. If you turn the image of the cover upside down, it appears that there is almost a ghostly Dumbledore-like (large white beard) in the boat and a round moon-like object over his shoulder. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 05:43:53 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:43:53 -0000 Subject: Prediction #2007 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130475 Prediction # 2007 I have made so many I can't remember what number I am on. ;-) Here is my latest Cassandra prediction (not for the contest, of course): The HBP is someone from long, long ago. DD is one in a long line of wizards that shall we say took on the *cloak* or mantel of this person and that is why he has the Phoenix. It will be time for him to teach the next one in line and that will be Harry. Harry has been marked by the forces of Evil as the *chosen one* to use JKR's own words. In HBP we will see Harry as an apprentice of sorts to DD. DD will give him special instructions somewhat like Lupin did, but more so. In fact how do we know that DD didn't suggest (I can't remember) to Lupin to teach Harry some extra things. I think that DD has been grooming Harry all along. I know that everyone says that DD must die. I will buy a truck load of Kleenex in preparation, because as much as I don't want it to happen, part of me knows that you are right. DD will go on to his next great adventure and Harry will be given the mantel and the bird (Phoenix that is). And He will defeat LV somehow without using any curses. He will vanquish LV with the mysterious force of the ancient magic as represented by the Phoenix which is sacrificial, forgiving, Love. And as I have said, He will die, go into hell, and come back, and all the rest This way Harry can live on and marry Ginny and have 12 kids, and later become, in his mid-life, after a time as an auror, the MoM. Tonks_op From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sat Jun 11 06:03:10 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:03:10 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: References: <42AA4314.1070803@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130476 >***********SPOILER****************** >* >S >* >P >* >O >* >I >* >L >* >E >* >R >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* > >After looking at the image of the boat, I noticed that the >reflection doesn't exactly match the object that is the >boat. If you turn the image of the cover upside down, it >appears that there is almost a ghostly Dumbledore-like >(large white beard) in the boat and a round moon-like >object over his shoulder. > >Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sorry to follow up my own post, but the markings on the wall seem to look like a dragon's head. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 06:41:02 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 06:41:02 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130477 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Lynn Walsh wrote: > >***********SPOILER****************** > >* > >S > >* > >P > >* > >O > >* > >I > >* > >L > >* > >E > >* > >R > >* > >* > >* > >* > >* > >* > >* > >* > >* > >* > >* > >* > >* > >* > >* > > > >After looking at the image of the boat, I noticed that the > >reflection doesn't exactly match the object that is the > >boat. If you turn the image of the cover upside down, it > >appears that there is almost a ghostly Dumbledore-like > >(large white beard) in the boat and a round moon-like > >object over his shoulder. > > Tonks: I took the image into my photo editor and was able to see the old man in the boat too. And I also saw that the bottom of the Pensive/ Chalice?? has markings on it, but I can't make them out. The marking I was looking for would have been on the larger stone. I was looking for Necromanancer symbols, but there was nothing there. But there is something on the base of the pensive thingy. And I can't make out the writing on the way. Is there someone here with a better photo editor that can see this stuff?? Also maybe the ring has a rune marking on it. Tonks_op From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 11 07:01:19 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:01:19 -0000 Subject: Voldemort, dragon's blood and the AK curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "firebird" wrote: firebird: > Forgive me if this is an old subject, but does anyone think LV's > experiments in immorality, which prevented his death that night in GH, > might have involved dragon's blood? Seems to fit with the fact that > curses rebound off dragons' hides. There would also be a neat irony if > DD's discovery ended up preserving LV's life. Geoff: My mine boggles that Voldemort was experimenting with immorality... Children, leave the room at once! :-) From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 11 07:07:44 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:07:44 -0000 Subject: CoS too easy to get into/DD knew about Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130479 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: Tamara: > Is it just me, or were the obsticles that had to be overcome to to into > the CoS waaayyy to easy? It seems any wizard worth his salt would have > been able to pass them. And did Dumbledore know that Quirrell had LV > under his hat? Geoff: Are you confusing the dungeon in "Philosopher's Stone" with the Chamber of Secrets? There were no real obstacles to the latter - except knowing where the entrance to the darned place was and also being a fluent Parseltongue speaker...... From buffyeton at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 07:17:59 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:17:59 -0000 Subject: CoS too easy to get into/DD knew about Quirrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130480 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > > Tamara: > > Is it just me, or were the obsticles that had to be overcome to to > into > > the CoS waaayyy to easy? It seems any wizard worth his salt would > have > > been able to pass them. And did Dumbledore know that Quirrell had LV > > under his hat? > > Geoff: > Are you confusing the dungeon in "Philosopher's Stone" with the Chamber > of Secrets? Doh, my bad. Change the question to make it the PS dungeon. It seems only the mirror was a real problem... Tamara From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 07:44:06 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:44:06 -0000 Subject: Wand question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130481 I'm having a Star Wars weekend with my 9-year-old Godson, and out of no where, whilst playing with my CoS Lego set, he asked me "how do they know which end the magic comes out of?" I had never thought of this before. I would assume a wand can be held backwards, and that pointing a wand the wrong way would cast the curse in the opposite direction. Are they tapered (like a conductor's baton) or do they have a definite "handle"? Do they just feel it? Any thoughts? Now he's got me curious. Ginger, trying to talk Star Wars and Harry Potter at the same time with a kid who changes subjects at the drop of a hat and always uses pronouns without antecedents. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat Jun 11 07:50:55 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:50:55 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130482 > -Alisha: who didn't realize she was opening such a big can of worms > by suggesting we all keep our minds open to differing possibilities. Gerry I'm sorry but that is not what you said. You said this: "If JKR is to make this story believable and real, then Harry will never be the same again. We won't ever see that happy, healthy boy we met on the train to Hogwart's. To bring in a similar story, he'd have to be like Frodo, broken by his experience." (post 130369) Here you exclude every other possible ending, especially an ending which does not have a deeply traumatized Harry, for a believable story. And that is what opened the can :) Because a lot of people - me among them - don't believe in a standard response everyone has to have to trauma. Gerry From buffyeton at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 08:39:59 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:39:59 -0000 Subject: Wand question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > I'm having a Star Wars weekend with my 9-year-old Godson, and out of > no where, whilst playing with my CoS Lego set, he asked me "how do > they know which end the magic comes out of?" > > I had never thought of this before. I would assume a wand can be held > backwards, and that pointing a wand the wrong way would cast the curse > in the opposite direction. Are they tapered (like a conductor's > baton) or do they have a definite "handle"? Do they just feel it? > > Any thoughts? Now he's got me curious. > > Ginger, trying to talk Star Wars and Harry Potter at the same time > with a kid who changes subjects at the drop of a hat and always uses > pronouns without antecedents. In the film at least, the wands seem to be bulbous at one end. But I don't remember any canon. Maybe it is just sort of part of the magic, like how each wizard/witch can tell their own wand from others very easily. Tamara From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat Jun 11 08:45:12 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:45:12 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130484 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "madorganization" wrote: > Alisha: > We're just going to have to disagree on this one. By the way, I > never once suggested that fiction as opposed to literature was > trash. I enjoy a good, entertaining book as much as the next > person. I just think that there is a time and place for both. Gerry One of the problems I have with literary criticism is that critics so often want to presume what people should read, why they should read it and how they should react. Especially when it comes to entertainment, which [sarcasm]is ofcourse not of the same value as a deeply literary work that has a Purpose and Teaches us something [/sarcasm]. Critics tend to forget that most of the books they hyped up in their days are forgotten a couple of years ago, while there are a lot of books they disdained that survived. Dickens is already mentioned. Critics also tend to forget that quite a lot of people are not in reading to be Taught, but because they want to immerse in a story, so they can forget about their real life experiences. And yes, they can pick literature for that as well. I studies literature, and one of the things I learned is to analyze to analyze, to analyze. The most important reason I did not want to go on with it was that the people who taught me could no longer truly be in a story, they had to be the separated reader, analyzing what happened, very busy with what The Author Wants To Tell, instead of letting themselves be touched by the story and see what happens in the interaction. Now I like analyzing, I like finding out why a character or a scene works for me, but not to the extent that I want to separate my own reactions and emotions from the text to find out the message of the author. If the author want to tell a message, I suggest he writes a sermon. > Alisha: > And sometimes we can realize that when we want to hear a certain > viewpoint we read a certain book and when we want another one we > read another one, but either way, we are being preached at by an > Author Who Knows Better. Gerry Yeah, that's the probem I have with many 'literary' authors. Beautiful style, deep message, too bad they cannot write a story. And ofcourse thinking that you know better, and preaching to the reader quite often is nothing but arrogance and it makes the story weaker. > Alisha: > Again, I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on this. The purpose > of reading a book about rape or AIDs or something like that is not > to depress oneself. It is, partially, to experience catharsis (a > cleansing of one's emotions by experiencing the emotions of others). Gerry Or curiosity, or thinking now you know something about it, or whatever other reason people might have. The problem I have with these kind of books is not that they exist, but that they are made somehow more important and better than books that do not have a 'deep' theme, are not about misery and how it is dealt with. Ofcourse there is a category of people who gain something from reading such a book, for some people it might actually help them emotionally. But it is not the be all and end all. I don't want to read books about relations that don't work, about people with cancer, about rape or other day to day misery people experience. Why not? Because they don't help me, they just make me angry. I read for beauty, for enjoyment, for fun, or because I don't want to think about some things in my very real life. I don't want to read a story about cancer, I've experienced a good friend dying from it, and no way a story will do justice to my experiences. I don't want to read a story made up abouot AIDS, I'm convinced it will do no justice to the real people who actually have it. Harry Potter, on the other hand, helps me deal with my real experiences. Helps me to escape, gives me joy and hope and those I take with me from the story, to my very real life. I think that is one of the reasons escapism (so much disdained by critics) is important. Because it helps you deal with your own life, it gives you strenght and nourishment. For me this is true. For others it might be completely opposite. But I don't need a critic to tell me what I Need nor an author. > Alisha: > Again, I never said this was a bad thing. Sometimes you need a > happy ending, and sometimes you need a sad one. Gerry Why do you suppose it is another who can tell a reader what they need? To me this is a very arrogant point of view. > Alisha: > It's not Campbell that has given us this idea. It's human > experience. People who go through the sorts of ordeals that Harry > has gone through do experience trauma. This is what so many people > are arguing to explain CAPSLOCK!Harry from OotP. Something inside > him must change. The experiences he's had mean he will never be > able to experience the normal growing up period he would need to be > a completely well-adjusted adult. Gerry I'm sorry but that is rubbish. There is enough psychological evidence to see that the experiences themselves are not the most important, but it is the way someone deals with them. People with horrible experiences quite often are much less traumatized than people with far less experiences but who do not have the inner resources to cope. Harry, as we see him from the beginning and as we see him develop, has quite a lot of inner resources. And quite a lot of potential for happiness. Gerry From mysticowl at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 10:41:14 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 06:41:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wand question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130485 In the movies the wands have a handle. All the shops I've seen online that sell wands as HP merchandise also seem to give the wands handles. However, in book 4, during the wand weighing, I remember Harry feeling embarassed about the finger marks all over his wand, which is suggestive of a handless wand (albeit, it's not 100%). If I remember correctly, there was a Wizard of the Month on Rowling's website who held a wand and it had a handle. Since the finger marks on Harry's wand in book four could come from just day to day handling of the wand while it's shuffled around with other school things as opposed to holding it while spellcasting, I guess the safer assumption is that wands have handles. Alina. From eileen_nicholson at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 06:34:02 2005 From: eileen_nicholson at yahoo.com (Eileen Nicholson) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...) Message-ID: <20050611063402.16849.qmail@web60213.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130486 phoenixgod2000 says: I still say that before OOTP Dumbledore was shown to deeply respect Harry's abilities and accomplishments. I cannot square the actions of that man with the coward that I saw in OOTP. I mean for gods sake, he sent Harry back in time! two years ealier. It doesn't make any sense to me that the man who could do that was unable to do better in this book. Eileen: I haven't been able to see DD as a coward in OoP. He seems to me to be playing a difficult hand very carefully. I even see a touch of the Snape!performance in the office scene..... It seems to me that DD knew it was likely that Harry would go to the MoM from the outset of OoP, and the less information that Harry is given, the more likely he is to go - once Snape realised that Harry had been having the MoM dreams, DD would have been fairly certain that he'd go. My feeling is that DD knows Harry needs to learn Occlumency and Legilimens in order to deal more effectively with the link between himself and Voldemort, in order to take control of it, but this is a longer term aim and he is not expecting Snape's lessons with Harry to prevent him going to the MoM. Both the Order members and DD arrived fairly promptly at the MoM - I think they were expecting the call; it was part of DD's plan to force VM out into the open. On balance, Sirius' death suits DD: He got Harry away from the 'danger' of being brought up by his nominated guardian by getting Hagrid to deliver him to Privet Drive and the Dursleys only to have him back on his hands after Peter Pettigrew returns to VM, and with increasing influence on Harry. Sirius vindicated and guardian of Harry is still very much a threat to DD's plans; Sirius loved and dead is a very important part of the process of turning Harry into a weapon for the Order against VM. At the end of OoP, DD knows that Harry is full of anger and grief, that he is starting to understand that the adults around him are not only not perfect, but that their intentions aren't necessarily the same as his own. DD does two things - he gives Harry a suggestion about DD's own guilt in relation to the death of Sirius, and then gives him a lot of information about something that is bound to become the focus of Harry's thoughts because it centres on him - the prophecy. DD is, among other things, ensuring that when Harry focuses on Sirius' death (small picture) he will have the prophecy (big picture) context to place it in. Harry is currently blaming Snape for Sirus' death, but when if and when he recognises DD's involvement and does not understand the mitigating circumstances, it could lead to a dangerous breach between them - DD doesn't want to find himself up against the sharp end of his own Weapon!Harry Just a few thoughts. I only finished reading the books in February, so I'm still trying to play catchup and may have missed a lot of key posts - if anyone can point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it! Eileen Nicholson J I --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eileen_nicholson at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 09:41:03 2005 From: eileen_nicholson at yahoo.com (Eileen Nicholson) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 02:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Has anyone thought that Dumbledore knows what the outcome is going to be? Message-ID: <20050611094103.80732.qmail@web60216.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130487 Michael (mggoulden) wrote: Dumbledore is my favourite character in the books...... his positively ludicrous decision to entrust an innocent man's fate to two 13 year-old wizards, and something is decidedly fishy. And yet, I just don't believe that Dumbledore would openly and brazenly meddle with time - he himself says it is dangerous (from experiece, perhaps? You see, it's still fishy!) - but then I am clouded by my desire to see the old Headmaster of Hogwarts in a positive light. In my opinion, he is the proverbial shrewd operator, who's guesses tend to be right 90% of the time. Eileen: I thought myself that if DD wanted to save Sirius, he'd have found a more reliable way to do it than entrusting it to two kids with a time turner - he had Sirius locked in the castle, after all - so I don't think this was his objective. Which left me wondering what he wanted to achieve. Since he had already seen that Buckbeak had vanished in a very short space of time, he would have been aware that a time turner might be in use by someone who was motivated to rescue Buckbeak. After he has spoken to Snape, (when Sirius is imprisoned in the castle and the kids are in the hospital wing) he knows that the dementors attacked Harry and Hermione (they also attacked Sirius but I don't think this is a major concern for DD) and that something drove them off. DD realises that the time turner is needed to drive away the dementors from Harry and Hermione, and that Harry with his 'saving people thing' can be relied on to do it while saving Sirius. Harry and Hermione, then, are the 'more than one innocent life' that DD intends to be saved. Michael wrote: I believe that in PS Dumbledore knew that Professor Quirrel was under the control of Voldemort. As such, he had the Philosopher's Stone placed in the school to tempt Voldemort out of hiding. Now, I'm sure the Headmaster didn't know Voldemort was under the turban, but he did know that he was around somewhere. His trick with the Mirror of Erised at the end was a masterstroke, possibly designed to keep Voldemort/Quirrel stumped so that he could confront them. Unfortunately, Harry got involved. Eileen: I think you're right, but that it was no accident that Harry got involved. The Mirror of Erised trick had to have someone with Harry's motivation involved in order to bring Voldemort out in the open - without him, you would have had Quirrell, the mirror, and stalemate. Michael again: In OotP, the Headmaster utilised the same trick that he did in PS - he explicitly tempted Voldemort with an object the latter was desperate to obtain, i.e, the Prophecy. Dumbledore knew, and Voldemort came to know, that only two people can take Prophecies out of the DoM - in this instance, Harry and Voldemort. The two enemies know that Voldemort doesn't want to risk rushing into the Ministry himself as that would result in the exposure of his return (which is what happened in a roundabout way - see how Fudge was alerted?), so that leaves just Harry. Dumbledore kept Harry in the dark precisely because he knew Voldemort was always there in the boy's head somewhere; some of Harry's anger was down to Voldemort, surely? All the "cloak and dagger" stuff in OotP highlights this mental battle of wills between the Headmaster and the Dark Lord, locking horns in a way they have been doing ever since Dumbledore suspected Riddle of opening the Chamber. It's fascinating reading OotP from this perspective; the machinations at play are numerous and fairly complex. Yes, keeping Harry unawares hurt him and ultimately led to Sirius' death, but Dumbledore (who is perhaps a closet utilitarian) never lost sight of the ultimate goal: to reveal Voldemort's return and get the Ministry back on his side. Sirius may have been killed, but now the world knows You Know Who is back. In light of this, I have to ask myself, would Dumbledore do things differently if he could go back and change things? And even though he's my favourite character, I have to say that, given the choice, Dumbledore probably wouldn't change a thing. -Michael Eileen: I quite agree that he wouldn't want to change a thing; Voledemort out in the open exactly as planned, and Sirius'life sacrificed for Harry as a bonus. He might have some difficult explaining to do, but for him that would be a small price to pay. Eileen Nicholson --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jun 11 14:05:22 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:05:22 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130488 > > >***********SPOILER****************** > > >* > > >S > > >* > > >P > > >* > > >O > > >* > > >I > > >* > > >L > > >* > > >E > > >* > > >R > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > > > > >After looking at the image of the boat, I noticed that the > > >reflection doesn't exactly match the object that is the > > >boat. If you turn the image of the cover upside down, it > > >appears that there is almost a ghostly Dumbledore-like > > >(large white beard) in the boat and a round moon-like > > >object over his shoulder. > > > > > Tonks: > > I took the image into my photo editor and was able to see the old > man in the boat too. And I also saw that the bottom of the Pensive/ > Chalice?? has markings on it, but I can't make them out. The > marking I was looking for would have been on the larger stone. I was > looking for Necromanancer symbols, but there was nothing there. But > there is something on the base of the pensive thingy. And I can't > make out the writing on the way. Is there someone here with a better > photo editor that can see this stuff?? Also maybe the ring has a > rune marking on it. > > Tonks_op I have done the photo editor thing with the ring and it looks to me that the carving in the ring stone is of two figures in a handgrasping pose - the same pose that is on the fold-in sections. I am thinking does this mean that the biggest clue to the plot of HBP on this cover is that there is going to be a kind of Older Wizard younger Wizard bond, perhaps a confirmation of the Tom-Salazar bond. What say yer? ;D Valky Thinking the boat is really worth discussing but not able to clearly make out the figure inside it in the reflection and wondering just what is overhead in the reflection (the moon?). From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 11 05:13:13 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: <410-22005651015848643@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050611051313.40372.qmail@web80107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130489 Chancie wrote: Hi, with all the talks of what's on the covers, I thoughts some of you might like to see the full cover of the UK edition of HBP. they removed the summary from the back as well. The link is: http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/june10/fullukhbpcover.jpg ~*S*~ ~*P*~ ~*O*~ ~*I*~ ~*L*~ ~*E*~ ~*R*~ * * SPACE ************************************************ The back cover shows a pensive (or what most of us assume to be a pensive) in an underground cave with water in it. The "pensive" is siting on a circular stone platform in the middle of the "lake". There also appears to be a gold looking boat. There are marks on the cave wall, but I don't think they are supposed to be words from all I can tell... Can anyone see anything I've missed? Chris now: I missed the ring at the first look. It appears to be an amethyst in a gold band. The stone definitely seems to have some kind of mark on it. It's hard to say if it is a slit like a cat's eye (maybe a snake eye?) or if it is a lightening bolt. Could it belong to the HBP or maybe it's an inheritance for Harry from Sirius. I wonder why the little boat is glowing? It does appear to be in an underground cavern with a small lake. The glow is reflecting on the cave wall. Can anyone see what the "scratches" on the wall are? There seems to be some straight lines and some "S" (Slytherin?) shaped ones? Are these words or just random lines and squiggles? That pedestal is definitely clawed. Could it be a dragon claw? What, if anything, could that signify? I think that is the pensieve we see on the US cover. It has a very similar shape and also looks to be made of stone. The two hands entwined by fire/lightening appear to be one old and one young. One has rougher looking skin and the veins are standing out and the other appears smooth, like a young persons would be. My immediate thought is DD and Harry. But, perhaps it is the HBP. The other thing that strikes me about this is the way in which the hands are clasped. I think an enemy would be highly unlikely to clasp hands in this way, it is too "friendly". My other major impression is that they are transfering power (or perhaps combining power?) Chris with more questions than answers tonight. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carmenharms at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 14:48:23 2005 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:48:23 -0000 Subject: Entertainment in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130490 --- "Tamara" wrote: > One of the main things I have noticed in the HP books is the lack of > entertainment mentioned in the magic world. >Does fiction not exist in the magically world? It does seem strange. The only thing we've seen the kids reading for pleasure is Ron's "pile of comics which all seemed to feature *The Adventures of Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle*", from Chamber of Secrets. That same book gives us a glimpse of wizard radio: "[T]he old radio next to the sink had just announced that coming up was 'Witching Hour, with the popular singing sorceress, Celestina Warbeck'." I'd like to know more about wizard radio. Does it come by magic through Muggle radios in wizarding houses? Or are wizard radios different, constructed to pick up the magical channels? Besides the Weird Sisters, we've heard of the Hobgoblins. In Order of the Phoenix, Harry reads in "The Quibbler" that one Doris Purkiss is alleging that "Sirius Black is actually Stubby Boardman, lead singer of popular singing group The Hobgoblins". It does seem surprising that teenagers aren't more interested in the world of entertainment -- particularly the Muggle-borns, who go still spend summers in the Muggle world with TV, radio, CDs, movies, and video games. --snazzzybird From yutu75es at yahoo.es Sat Jun 11 16:10:44 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:10:44 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... References: <20050611051313.40372.qmail@web80107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001801c56ea0$209ba0a0$8000a8c0@casa> No: HPFGUIDX 130491 > ~*S*~ > ~*P*~ > ~*O*~ > ~*I*~ > ~*L*~ > ~*E*~ > ~*R*~ > * > * > SPACE > ************************************************ Chris wrote: > The two hands entwined by fire/lightening appear to be one old and one > young. One has rougher looking skin and the veins are standing out and > the other appears smooth, like a young persons would be. My immediate > thought is DD and Harry. But, perhaps it is the HBP. The other thing > that strikes me about this is the way in which the hands are clasped. I > think an enemy would be highly unlikely to clasp hands in this way, it is > too "friendly". My other major impression is that they are transfering > power (or perhaps combining power?) Me (Fridwulfa): You know, when I first saw the hands I thought of Fawkes, this fire rope or whatever it is made me think of a phoenix and the more I look at it, the more I think we are going to see Harry become a member of the Order, and maybe this image of the hands and the fire is just some sort of, I don't know, ritual or something you follow when you become a member of the OoP, with Harry and Dumbledore sealing a pact of silence and trust or whatever it is you do to be a full member of a secret society or order of this kind. Does it make sense to you? Cheers, Fridwulfa ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, ms seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 11 01:40:18 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:40:18 -0400 Subject: Writing In-Reply-To: <7996d1d4369fe48443771a1fb757cf5d@comcast.net> References: <7996d1d4369fe48443771a1fb757cf5d@comcast.net> Message-ID: <42AA4102.6010301@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130492 madorganization wrote: >> Often times the author may not be aware of what this is, but >> it should still be there. I see the difference between >> "fiction" and "literature" to be similar to the difference >> between Art and something that is artistic. I do collages, >> that's artistic. It requires a certain asthetic sense, but >> I'm not an artist. I don't seek for anything beyond beauty >> in my work. I think literature has to be more than just a >> good book, it has to have larger social implications. Katherine Coble wrote: > No. That's what you've been told by clinicians and professors. > It's simply not the case. Look at Beethoven's 9th Symphony-- > written to express joy and beauty and the love of music. It > endures because we can feel those things through the centuries. Actually... now you're delving into my territory. If you're talking about a contrast between 'art' and 'artistic', then you could have picked a better example than Beethoven. :) Beethoven was VERY much the type who was striving for something greater, something bigger, in his music. ESPECIALLY in his symphonies. #3 was originally meant as a tribute to Napoleon, who he saw as a great political figure -- until he crowned himself emperor. Disillusioned, he renamed it the "Eroica", or "Heroic" symphony. It's not just 'love of music', it's expression of heroicism, nobility, and greatness. Beethoven was a staunch humanist, and sought to empower and communicate his fervent beliefs in the power of mankind. #9, you example, is not actually about "Joy". The original poem by Schiller that was set (and which is only a small part in the last movement of the whole symphony, really) was "Ode to Freedom", and was really quite politically rebellious. Beethoven wanted to use that, but in the political climate of the time couldn't risk it, so substituted 'Joy' (joy is "Freude" and freedom is "Freiheit"). If you read the whole text, you see it really is a humanist manifesto. So while it is totally possible to listen to it and just hear joy and beauty, its actual intentions are to be 'great art', invoking nobility, grandeur, and the betterment of the human race. A better example of music 'just for the love of music' would be Mozart. He did write a lot of big-g Great works of art, but huge portions of his oeuvre are just simple dance pieces, for the court balls, for background music. They are utterly gorgeous and 'great' in their own way -- but it's a different scale of intended impact. Now if 'intent' is the measure of 'great art' as opposed to 'artistic', then the Harry Potter books would not be 'great literature', because that was not JKR's intent. Even if she does have some moral, some message, in mind, her primary intent is really just to tell an interesting story. However, I would say that "intent" is not the only measure. Again, my expertise is in music so I'll use that for examples. There are pieces that were composed 'just because', with no grandiose ideals in mind, that later were considered to be 'great art'... for instance, Vivaldi's Four Seasons has no 'great' message, they're just character pieces. But they are classics in the truest sense of the word. Conversely, a composer might have the grandest notions in mind with his works, but actually come up with flops and garbage. Skryabin believed that his was divinely appointed to create master artworks that would combine sound, light, all the senses, that would literally bring about the transfiguration of mankind. He wrote some really wonderful pieces, I myself have performed the 5th piano sonata and it's a realy workhorse and comes close to transfiguration in my mind! But most are rarely played, and are relegated to the back shelf as interesting oddities. Then there's the 1812 Overture, which is a celebration of the glories of independence and freedom and all that grandiose stuff... it truly is a grand piece... complete with cannons and churchbells, there's no way Tchaikovsky intended it to be something 'light' and 'just for the love of music'. However, it's become so overly popular that its meaning has been lost, it belongs to the 'pops' orchestras and is heard in TV commercials the world over. Back to Harry Potter -- even if JKR wrote it with no idea of greatness in mind, it still might develop that greatness. That will take history to tell. There can be greatness without intention. It might be judged to be 'literature' in the grand scheme of things. Or, it might be just a really nice children's book series... In other words, sometimes 'just beauty' is not enough to take something out of 'amateur art' and into the annals of greatness... but sometimes, it is. I mean, look at the Mona Lisa, or Starry Night. Pachelbel's Canon would be another good example (though also suffering the fate of the 'pops'). It is truly and achingly beautiful, and so has become 'great' though initially it was 'just another string chaconne'. Whether something is considered 'literature' or 'fiction' is something that, I think, can only be determined with the passage of time and the judgment of decades. I personally think that some of Stephen King's novels will come to be regarded as 'great literature' in the future, complete with deeper meanings, allegories, clever literary devices, etc etc. But not all of them. As for Harry... well, I'll wait and see what the final 2 books bring. I would not be surprised if it does make that 'leap'. heather the buzzard ADMIN NOTE: If you wish to respond to heather's comments about music or art without relating your comments to HP, please post it to OTChatter - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter Thanks! From vloe at dallasnews.com Sat Jun 11 15:49:34 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (firebird) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:49:34 -0000 Subject: Voledmort, dragon's blood and the AK curse (revised) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130493 Thanks to Geoff for catching my freudian slip: "immorality" for "immortality." In an earlier post what I meant to say was: Forgive me if this is an old subject, but does anyone think LV's experiments in immortality, which prevented his death that night in GH, might have involved dragon's blood? Seems to fit with the fact that curses rebound off dragons' hides. There would also be a neat irony if DD's discovery ended up preserving LV's life. (blushing) firebird (Although, come to think of it, Voldy IS an experiment in immorality.) From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Sat Jun 11 16:58:15 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:58:15 -0700 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER Message-ID: <410-22005661116581578@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130494 With all the excitement over the full cover of HBP being released, I thought a few of you might like to view this. As well as releasing the cover art for HBP they have also made a Screen Saver, with some VERY interesting art work. Here's the Link for anyone who would like to see: http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/ring.gif ~*S*~ ~*P*~ ~*O*~ ~*I*~ ~*L*~ ~*E*~ ~*R*~ ~*~ ~*~ SPACE ********************* This page includes a VERY close up view of the Ring, and of the Hands in the "rope of fire". It's clear that one of the hands appears to be MUCH older than the second as many have said, and the ring appears to be more black than anything else from what I can see. If I had to call the design in the ring anything, it would probably have to be a lightning bolt, much like Harry's scar. Any other thoughts? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 11 17:22:39 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:22:39 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER In-Reply-To: <410-22005661116581578@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130495 > Chancie: > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/ring.gif > ~*S*~ ~*P*~ ~*O*~ ~*I*~ ~*L*~ ~*E*~ ~*R*~ ~*~ ~*~ SPACE ********************* > It's clear that one of the hands appears to be MUCH > older than the second as many have said, and the ring > appears to be more black than anything else from what > I can see. If I had to call the design in the ring anything, > it would probably have to be a lightning bolt, much like > Harry's scar. Any other thoughts? JLV's Crazy Ideas about the ring: It is connected to Voldemort's `immortality', which is why the shape matches the shape of Harry's scar (i.e. the shape itself isn't relevant, but the fact that they match *is*). On a side note, I am also sure that Harry's scar will disappear when Voldemort is defeated. It's a Black family heirloom (as it is black) that Harry inherits. Sirius had a whole lot of interesting magical artefacts (mirrors, the knife etc) as does Lucius Malfoy ? perhaps his secret stash is discovered now he's in jail and this ring is amongst it. It *must* be full of Dark Magic. Ooh so another candidate for ring ownership is Severus Snape. It also could be the ring of Slytherin which will be found in the Chamber of Secrets (as pictured on the back cover). Alternatively it is a good ring ? something Dumbledore uses to protect Harry?? Okay, I'm out of ideas for now ? but loving the suspense. But funny it had to be a ring you'd think JKR would be sick of LotR connections so would avoid suggesting them JLV xx From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 11 17:38:11 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:38:11 -0000 Subject: Voldemort, dragon's blood and the AK curse (revised) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130496 > firebird: > does anyone think LV's > experiments in immortality, which prevented his death that night in > GH, might have involved dragon's blood? Seems to fit with the fact > that curses rebound off dragons' hides. There would also be a neat > irony if DD's discovery ended up preserving LV's life. Based on this quote: (1999 interview) Q: What are the 12 uses for dragon's blood? -- Kelsey Biggar, age 9 A: I have a very good reason for not telling you -- the movie script writer wants me to give him that information for the film. But I can say that the 12th use is oven cleaner. Dragon's blood *must* have something to do with something (ooh, how vague of me). That it is connected to Voldemort's immortality experiments is the obvious connection, especially as Dragons (as you say) repel curses and are highly magical creatures. My speculation is perhaps Voldemort enlisted Snape to help make whatever potion it was he needed from the blood. When Snape changed sides he may have told Dumbledore everything he knew about what Voldemort did Now who has the upper hand? JLV xx From ms-tamany at rcn.com Sat Jun 11 18:15:03 2005 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:15:03 -0400 Subject: UK Cover closeup - comments on the ring (no real spoilers) In-Reply-To: <410-22005661116581578@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42AAF1E7.26617.9A8A10C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 130497 On 11 Jun 2005 at 9:58, Chancie wrote: > > With all the excitement over the full cover of HBP being > released, I thought a few of you might like to view this. > As well as releasing the cover art for HBP they have > also made a Screen Saver, with some VERY interesting > art work. Here's the Link for anyone who would like to see: > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/ring.gif > > > ~*S*~ > ~*P*~ > ~*O*~ > ~*I*~ > ~*L*~ > ~*E*~ > ~*R*~ > ~*~ > ~*~ > SPACE > ********************* > > This page includes a VERY close up view of the Ring, > and of the Hands in the "rope of fire". > > It's clear that one of the hands appears to be MUCH > older than the second as many have said, and the ring > appears to be more black than anything else from what > I can see. If I had to call the design in the ring anything, > it would probably have to be a lightning bolt, much like > Harry's scar. Any other thoughts? My father used to make jewelry, and I used to help him. Of course, that was nearly 25 years ago, but rocks don't change . . . much. ;-) Anyway, to me, that looks like either onyx, jet, or obsidian. Onyx is similar to jade in many ways -- fairly soft, easy to crack, sensitive to heat. Jet is *quite* soft, being a form of coal, and tends to actually melt and make greasy smears on things when overheated. Obsidian, being a volcanic glass, is quite strong, but also very brittle, and though extremely heat- resistant, can chip and shatter under sharp impact. Now, the pattern on the stone looks very like a crack, with perhaps some chipping or spalling going on as well. Either that, or the ring's upside down, and the pattern is a hand grasping a lightning bolt. But I don't think it's that -- the 'bolt' pattern extends through the bevelled edge of the stone, toward the actual gold bezel that holds the stone in. Most engraved stones (and it was a very common practice for centuries) restrict the engraved design to the flat face of the stone, for better clarity. As for the construction of the ring itself, it lacks setting prongs -- those little tiny bent doohickies around the rock that keep it in place -- which tells me that the stone is not held in by prongs, but was cast into the ring itself. See, for a very long time, now, most cast jewelry has been done in a 'lost wax' method, where the jeweler sculpts a wax original of the piece (ring, pendant, whatever), and then makes a plaster or sand mold around the wax. Once the mold is completely hardened, the soft wax is melted out, leaving a hollow in the exact form of the piece to be cast. Molten metal is then poured into the mold, and voila! There's your piece, all ready to be cleaned and polished. Now, certain stones can take the heat of the molten metal, and are therefore sometimes set into the wax original, so that the setting is smooth and seamless around the stone, rather than set in place with bent-over prongs after the piece has been cast. It's an aesthetics thing, y'see. Anyway, the way this ring is constructed, with no prongs, means to me that the stone, whatever it is, was in place when the metal was poured. That means it couldn't be jet -- that would have melted and burned up. It's not likely to be onyx -- that tends to crack under the high heat of molten metals (I ruined my class ring, that I made for myself in high school, by setting the stone in the wax original and casting it in place -- it cracked in the heat). My best guess would be obsidian, easily able to take the heat of molten gold (which, being very soft itself, melts at a relatively low temperature, compared to many other metals). If it is a crack, it seems somewhat gaping, doesn't it? I think it's shown that way to make it clear that it *is* a crack, not necessarily that it's a GAPING crack -- cracks in stones can be hard to depict in drawings, I suppose. But it doesn't look, to me, like the type of crack obsidian would take -- like I said, that tends to shatter and chip. The faint patterns to either side of the crack, though, could be chips . . . or they could be an actual engraving or etching, possibly of a crest or shield. Obsidian doesn't like to be engraved, though it can be acid-etched, so maybe it is engraved onyx, and was unwisely cast in place, or possibly cracked sometime after being cast (onyx doesn't always crack in the heat, see), while possibly subjected to some mighty spellcasting, or something. Oh, now, look at how I've gone on, here. :-D And I've been so comfortably lurking for so long, too! I just had to get in on this, though. :-D *** Tammy Rizzo ms-tamany at rcn.com What were you in your pants that was still pining over and went to the businessman? -- 'Atlanta Nights', by Travis Tea (chapter 34) From ms-tamany at rcn.com Sat Jun 11 18:25:41 2005 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:25:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] UK Cover closeup - comments on the ring (no real spoilers) In-Reply-To: <42AAF1E7.26617.9A8A10C@localhost> References: <410-22005661116581578@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42AAF465.22056.9B25BDB@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 130498 On 11 Jun 2005 at 14:15, Tammy Rizzo wrote: > My father used to make jewelry, and I used to help him. Of course, that was > nearly > 25 years ago, but rocks don't change . . . much. ;-) AAAAUGHH! I'm sorry! I thought this was on the OT-list. My bad! No actual HP content, I'm so sorry. **off to slam her ears in the oven** *** Tammy Rizzo ms-tamany at rcn.com What were you in your pants that was still pining over and went to the businessman? -- 'Atlanta Nights', by Travis Tea (chapter 34) From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 18:46:18 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:46:18 -0000 Subject: Wand question - I speculate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > ... my 9-year-old Godson, ... he asked me "how do they know which > end the magic comes out of?" > > I had never thought of this before. ... Are they tapered (like a > conductor's baton) or do they have a definite "handle"? Do they > just feel it? > > Any thoughts? Now he's got me curious. > > Ginger, ... bboyminn: Let me be a slight jerk and ask, if you held your cell phone upside down would it still work? I don't mean would you be able to functionally use it, but would the device itself still function? The answer is - of course. What I'm getting at is that a wand is somewhat like an antenna. It's purpose is to channel, focus, and direct the magic. Let's say for example that you cast a Stunning Curse. I would (greatly) speculate that if an inexperience person performed a wandless Stunner, the force would burst from them in a sphere or globe of red stunning force moving equally in all directions. A more experience, yet still wandless person, might, through concentration and force of will, be able to make the stunning force move in a specific but general direction, but none the less, the force would be wide and somewhat dispersed. Now using a wand, the stunning force is channeled through the narrow conduit of the wand and focused into a narrow beam so the impact of the Stunner on it's target has greater force. I also think the wand enhances the flow of magic. In a sense, holding a wand creates a 'path of least resistance', and therefore make the magic flow easier. So, given all this admitted speculation of how a wand works, I think you could hold a wand backwards and still get it to work since you are channeling magic /out/ of yourself and /through/ the wand. The spell you cast would just be slightly more dispersed than if you were holding the wand correctly. Although, that might depend of the amoung of taper for that particular wand. I would guess a tapered wand would be more dispersed when used backwards, but a uniform cylindrical wand would be nearly the same in each direction. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From noesumeragi at yahoo.es Sat Jun 11 19:08:25 2005 From: noesumeragi at yahoo.es (noesumeragi) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:08:25 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: > > Chancie: > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/ring.gif > > > ~*S*~ > ~*P*~ > ~*O*~ > ~*I*~ > ~*L*~ > ~*E*~ > ~*R*~ > ~*~ > ~*~ > SPACE > ********************* JLV's Crazy Ideas about the ring: (heavily edited) > > It is connected to Voldemort's `immortality', which is why the shape (...) > matches the shape of Harry's scar > It's a Black family heirloom (as it is black) that Harry inherits. > as does Lucius Malfoy ? > Ooh so another candidate for ring ownership is Severus Snape. > It also could be the ring of Slytherin which will be found in the > Chamber of Secrets (as pictured on the back cover). > Alternatively it is a good ring ? something Dumbledore uses to > protect Harry?? noe now: I want to add an idea to your list, what about being a royal heirloom? and therefore property of the in-famous half-blood prince... After all, kings and Church personalities used to have rings that showed their position and power, rings that were kissed upon as a way of showing respect and obedience. Maybe possessions of that ring mark you as from royal blood? From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 11 19:19:16 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:19:16 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130501 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > >***********SPOILER****************** > > >* > > >S > > >* > > >P > > >* > > >O > > >* > > >I > > >* > > >L > > >* > > >E > > >* > > >R > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > >* > > > > > > Also maybe the ring has a rune marking on it. (Something happened when I was trying to reply to this so if a truncated reply appears I'm really sorry - I'm not having much luch with the PC at the moment!!) The first thing I did was check that symbol in the ring in a book of runes and it is not there. There is a similar one (but the wiggly bits go the other way (IYSWIM). That one is called sigel - the sun and it did interest me that it says it is closely associated with the astrological sign Leo (Harry is a Leo isn't he?). When this rune appears in a reading it implies that the subject has been overstretched of late and is in need of a rest (*!*). It also means that they are in a situation that they need to take control of (*! *). If this rune appears next to other positive ones then it means the subject is at the peak of their powers. This rune can further be seen as the principal of the guiding light. It's appearance can mean that the subject is in need of help, needing someone or something to arise and show them the way forward. All I can say is the mind boggles. Perhaps the artist meant it to be this one, but got the 'squiggle' wrong. Perhaps it's just a coincidence? Anyone out there with actual rune knowlege rather than just a reference book - HELP!!! Karen > > Tonks_op From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 19:20:09 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:20:09 -0000 Subject: ...dragon's blood & the AK : Tangent - Skin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: > > firebird: > > does anyone think LV's experiments in immortality, which > > prevented his death that night in GH, might have involved dragon's > > blood? Seems to fit with the fact that curses rebound off > > dragons' hides. There would also be a neat irony if DD's discovery > > ended up preserving LV's life. > JLV: > > Based on this quote: > > (1999 interview) > Q: What are the 12 uses for dragon's blood? -- Kelsey Biggar, age 9 > A: I have a very good reason for not telling you --... But I can > say that the 12th use is oven cleaner. > > Dragon's blood *must* have something to do with ... Voldemort's > immortality experiments ..., especially as Dragons (as you > say) repel curses and are highly magical creatures. > ... > > JLV xx bboyminn: A lot of people have speculated that Snape helped Voldemort with his Immortality Experiments, but Voldemort is twice as old as Snape. I have to believe Voldemort performed many, or some, of his experiments before Snape was even born. That however, does not mean that Snape couldn't have help with later experiments. Given JKR's quote, it seems like Voldemort's experimentation might be an area where Dragon's blood could come into play. However, if there is a connection between Dragon's blood and 'protection', it could be applied to the stories in a variety of ways. -People are always specualting that Lily performed, /performed/ not just invoked, some ancient magic at Godrics Hollow. Perhaps she was feeding Harry a dragon blood potion to protect him. -Other's, meaning ME, have speculated that Voldemort will kill Harry but only by technical definition. In that moment of Harry's apparent death, Voldemort will be at his peak vulnerability, which will allow someone else to kill him. So, to allow Harry a technical death but still protecting him from true death, Harry will take at protective, but short term, dragon blood potion, and/or a restorative or reviving dragon blood potion. Perhaps a mix of dragon's blood, and a mixture of unicorn blood which was either voluntarily given or taken without harming the unicorn. I'm sure if I worked on it long enough I could think of other ways to bring dragon's blood into the story in areas other than Voldemort's immortality. Although, even though I could think of other places to fit it into the story, that wouldn't necessarily it couldn't be applied to Voldie too. On a tangent, we know the hide of living dragons is magically protected, magic bounces off of it, but I wonder about Dragon hide gloves or the dragon skin jackets that the twins were wearing? The protective gloves does somewhat imply that they are capable of protection greater than simple rough cowhide gloves. So, could I fairly extend that to imply that dragon skin jackets might have some shielding characteristics that could be beneficial in a magical fight? So much speculation, and so little time. Steve/bboyminn From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 19:34:28 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Love" is the power to vanquish LV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050611193428.3938.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130503 > Dumbledore has grown very fond of Harry, and some would say he > even LOVES him like a son. What if, through his own sacrifice for > Harry, Dumbledore somehow transfers his powers to Harry? I have > thought and thought about this, and it seems the only way Harry can > survive. I think Dumbledore is the only one with the knowledge and > practical use of magic to defeat LV, and this would provide the > method for Harry to fulfill the prophecy. What do you all think? > > Chris Welcome Chris. That's an interesting theory. Certainly there's nothing to prevent it from happening and Lily's sacrifice would imply that it's effective magic. We assume that it was a mother's sacrifice and love but there's nothing in canon (I think) that would prevent anyone from doing it. Hmmm.... Good theory. Magda __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 11 19:11:44 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:11:44 -0400 Subject: UK Cover closeup - comments on the ring (no real spoilers) In-Reply-To: <42AAF1E7.26617.9A8A10C@localhost> References: <42AAF1E7.26617.9A8A10C@localhost> Message-ID: <42AB3770.2080908@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130504 Tammy Rizzo wrote: >>http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/ring.gif >> >> >> ~*S*~ >> ~*P*~ >> ~*O*~ >> ~*I*~ >> ~*L*~ >> ~*E*~ >> ~*R*~ >> ~*~ >> ~*~ >> SPACE >> >Now, the pattern on the stone looks very like a crack, with >perhaps some chipping or spalling going on as well. > >If it is a crack, it seems somewhat gaping, doesn't it? I think >it's shown that way to make it clear that it *is* a crack, not >necessarily that it's a GAPING crack -- cracks in stones can be >hard to depict in drawings, I suppose. Aw shoot, here I thought I was going to be the first to postulate that it was actually a crack in the gemstone... that occurred to me when I was looking at the full cover, just a few minutes before I saw this new artwork, which only makes me think it all the more. THEN I read your post. Guess I dawdled too much lol... Anyway. I agree with you that it looks like a crack -- like you said, it extends over the beveled edge, and I agree that there seems to be a shield etched on the face, though that *could* also just be ridges from whatever cracked it. I like to think that it's a family stone, perhaps with a coat of arms. If it belongs to the Black family, then it cracked when Sirius died (as the last real "Black"). Perhaps it's a birthstone... Onyx belongs to February (along with Amethyst, which is interesting since on the full cover it does look purple), but none of the characters (that we know of) have February birthdays. I also like the idea that the ring belongs (or belonged) to the HBP, who is an ancient, historical character and so this ring is an antique, cracked with age. It *is* interesting that the crack is a lightning bolt shape. It might be coincidental, as it's common for cracks to take that sort of shape... but it could be meaningful as well. Perhaps it belonged to the Potters, and it cracked under LV's AK spell in the same pattern as it left on Harry at the same time, and there's some connection between that ring and the 'ancient magic' that protects him. Hmm. heather the buzzard From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 11 19:39:07 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:39:07 -0000 Subject: full cover: the ring - SPOLER Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130505 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * S P O I L E R OMG I think it's the dark mark - I have just zoomed right into it and if you look at it with your head on your left shoulder it looks like a skull behind the obvious 'slash' which would then be the serpent in the mouth. Can anyone else see this? Karen From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 11 19:25:28 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:25:28 -0400 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER In-Reply-To: <410-22005661116581578@earthlink.net> References: <410-22005661116581578@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42AB3AA8.3040005@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130506 Chancie wrote: >http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/ring.gif > > > ~*S*~ > ~*P*~ > ~*O*~ > ~*I*~ > ~*L*~ > ~*E*~ > ~*R*~ > ~*~ > ~*~ > SPACE > ********************* > >This page includes a VERY close up view of the Ring, >and of the Hands in the "rope of fire". > >It's clear that one of the hands appears to be MUCH >older than the second as many have said, and the ring >appears to be more black than anything else from what >I can see. > heather: I just offhandedly said to my SO that maybe the hands are Harry reaching through the veil to grab Sirius, the fire is some magical bond needed to connect them through the 'dimensions', for to pull him back through. He said "Oooooooooooohhh... good one!!" He also thinks that the scene in the water cave is reminiscent of the River Styx and is hypothesizing based on that idea. The pensieve could be at the entrance to whatever the equivalent is in JKR's world, where all the 'dead' must leave their memories before going on into the underworld. So my idea of reaching 'through the veil' ties in with that quite nicely. If it were an entrance to the dwellingplace of the dead, then you probably would need a magical (glowing gold) boat to get there, and there could be an eerie boatman who can only be 'seen' in reflections. (Maybe that's what powers the first-year's boats too heheh) And imagine what you could learn by delving into THAT pensieve! That would open up all kinds of possibilities for what DD and Harry are looking at in the first US 'pensieve' cover. James and Lily's memories? Other ancestors? heather the buzzard From kempermentor at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 20:03:17 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:03:17 -0000 Subject: Wand question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130507 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > I'm having a Star Wars weekend with my 9-year-old Godson, and out of > no where, whilst playing with my CoS Lego set, he asked me "how do > they know which end the magic comes out of?" > ... > Any thoughts? Kemper: I'm guessing that Olivander bores out a twig from one of the special wand trees (the ones with those tree faerie things with the sharp teeth, then places the magical core (dragon heart string, unicorn hair, phoenix feather). Maybe there's some magical fussion on Olivander's part, leaving the wand essentially a twig of varying length. So, what I'm taking a long time to say is that the wizard probably holds the weightier side of the twig which is probably the side with more overall circumference than the other. It's more ergonomical. Maybe. Kemper From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 11 20:22:36 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:22:36 -0000 Subject: Voledmort, dragon's blood and the AK curse (revised) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130508 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "firebird" wrote: > Thanks to Geoff for catching my freudian slip: "immorality" > for "immortality." In an earlier post what I meant to say was: > > > Forgive me if this is an old subject, but does anyone think LV's > experiments in immortality, which prevented his death that night in > GH, might have involved dragon's blood? Seems to fit with the fact that > curses rebound off dragons' hides. There would also be a neat irony > if DD's discovery ended up preserving LV's life. > > (blushing) firebird > (Although, come to think of it, Voldy IS an experiment in immorality.) Geoff: Your final line reminded me of one of my favourite quotes from the Narnia books. In "The Magician's Nephew", the following exchange occurs: 'And there was such merriment that the Jackdaw himself plucked up courage again and perched on the cab-horse's head, between its ears, clapping its wings and said: "Aslan! Aslan! Have I made the first joke? Will everybody always be told how Imade the first joke?" "No, little friend," said the Lion. "You have not /made/ the first joke; you have only /been/ he first joke."' Now all we need is for us to fit Voldemort into a similar context and he will rush from the scene blushing - not because Harry kissed him as I wickedly suggested in message 129988 - but because of acute embarrassment at being laughed at.... :-) From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sat Jun 11 21:24:20 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:24:20 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130509 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Lynn Walsh >wrote: >> >***********SPOILER****************** >> >* >> >S >> >* >> >P >> >* >> >O >> >* >> >I >> >* >> >L >> >* >> >E >> >* >> >R >> >* >> >* >> >* >> >* >> >* >> >* >> >* >> >* >> >* >> >* >> >* >> >* >> >* >> >* >> >* >> > >> >After looking at the image of the boat, I noticed that the >> >reflection doesn't exactly match the object that is the >> >boat. If you turn the image of the cover upside down, it >> >appears that there is almost a ghostly Dumbledore-like >> >(large white beard) in the boat and a round moon-like >> >object over his shoulder. >> > > >Tonks: > >I took the image into my photo editor and was able to see the old >man in the boat too. And I also saw that the bottom of the Pensive/ >Chalice?? has markings on it, but I can't make them out. The >marking I was looking for would have been on the larger stone. I was >looking for Necromanancer symbols, but there was nothing there. But >there is something on the base of the pensive thingy. And I can't >make out the writing on the way. Is there someone here with a better >photo editor that can see this stuff?? Also maybe the ring has a >rune marking on it. > >Tonks_op > I keep looking and now I think that the upside down boat looks like there is a man with a bushy white beard on the left, a darker round object over his left shoulder (a boy's face?) and a round bright object over the darker round thing (a moon?, a hole in the ceiling?). My interpretation of it: probably Dumbledore, probably Harry, and probably the hole in the ceiling (why would you be able to see the moon in an underground cavern-like place?). Why can't you see them in the "real" image? Invisibility cloak? Invisibility spell? The image lingers after the people are gone? The wall behind it (right side up now), I can see in two different ways. In one way, it looks like an alligator-like monster, with its mouth open to the right. In the other way, it looks like the head of a dragon, eyes to the right and upward, snout down and to the left, with a curly tendril coming up from the end of the snout and possibly one eye damaged. My suggestion - it looks like dragons have something to do with the chamber, especially since the thing on the pedestal seems to have clawed feet. The ring: I can't make it look like anything other than a fat eel-like serpent - a graduation ring for Slytherin house members? :-) The base under the pedestal seems to be divided into 12 sections - months? twelve uses of dragon's blood? Zodiac? The pedestal itself (nomenclature?) seems to be divided into 6 sections. It almost looks like there are vague facelike markings in two of those sections - a blond haired one with a sort of crown on the right, a long necked one on the left (reddish hair). I know this is stretching it a lot, because you could probably convince yourself that almost anything is on there. But, oh well, if I am guessing, I might as well guess. I think the arms look definitely like one older and one younger, corresponding to the front cover? - Harry and DD? I didn't see them as arm-wrestling, though, but rather holding on to control or transfer some energy. Probably over-interpretation of the whole thing. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sat Jun 11 21:47:07 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:47:07 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK Cover closeup - comments on the ring (no real spoilers) In-Reply-To: <42AB3770.2080908@sympatico.ca> References: <42AAF1E7.26617.9A8A10C@localhost> <42AB3770.2080908@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130510 >Tammy Rizzo wrote: > >>>http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/ring.gif >>> >>> >>> ~*S*~ >>> ~*P*~ >>> ~*O*~ >>> ~*I*~ >>> ~*L*~ >>> ~*E*~ >>> ~*R*~ >>> ~*~ >>> ~*~ > >> SPACE >>> >Anyway. I agree with you that it looks like a crack -- like you >said, it extends over the beveled edge, and I agree that there >seems to be a shield etched on the face, though that *could* also >just be ridges from whatever cracked it. The problem with the crack idea is that the beveled edges still seem to be parallel and it the appropriate places. I would think that a crack of that magnitude would deform the rest of the setting. or at least the parallel edges of the bevels. >I like to think that it's a family stone, perhaps with a coat of >arms. If it belongs to the Black family, then it cracked when >Sirius died (as the last real "Black"). Perhaps it's a >birthstone... Onyx belongs to February (along with Amethyst, which >is interesting since on the full cover it does look purple), but >none of the characters (that we know of) have February birthdays. I would like to believe the shield idea, but it looks like an eye to me - or at least a shield with some sort of arch over it. The crack isn't quite close enough to Harry's scar for me to be convinced of that connection. But I withdraw my speculation that it looked like a snake on the cover of the book. :-) Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 22:05:15 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:05:15 -0000 Subject: Occlumency and Spies (Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130511 >>Betsy Hp: >Well, you brought up A.S. Byatt and she complained that JKR's magic wasn't numinous enough, that it was too mundane. (I'm assuming you brought up her views because yours are in agreement?)< >>Nora: >You know what they say--when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. :) >I'm not fond of Byatt's argument because it misses the point.< Betsy Hp: Didn't mean to make you (or me) an ass! :) I do wonder why you brought up Byatt in the first place if you completely disagreed with her sentiment. I must have missed the point you were trying to make. >>Nora: >I find the mundanity of the magic rather attractive. It means that I look far more for the psychological than the spiritual or symbolic, even-- and that's what drew me into my attempts at aiki explanation for Occlumency. Betsy Hp: I think you're looking too hard at the magic. Seeing something that isn't there. Though there is an intention behind it (eg the need to *want* to cause pain to successfully cast a Crucio; the need to find a genuinely powerful happy thought to successfully cast a Patronus against a dementor) the intention is rather basic. It calls upon certain aspects of the witch or wizard -- but it's fairly simple in its psychology. Much more simple than anything comparative in real life, IMO. Betsy Hp From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat Jun 11 22:41:46 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:41:46 -0700 Subject: Goderic's Hollow (was: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER...) In-Reply-To: <20050610215325.48062.qmail@web32607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050610215325.48062.qmail@web32607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1041605534.20050611154146@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130512 ***SPOILER SPACE*** . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Friday, June 10, 2005, 2:53:25 PM, Mira wrote: M> Come to think of it, it is more than obvious: the M> cover describes an underground bay which is... The M> Godric Hollow! Hollow, because it is cave-like. If you're right, then I think Jo has engaged in a very clever bit of punstering (is that a word?) -- By the numerous references of the Potters living in Goderic's "Hollow", she has put into our minds the kind of hollow that is a cozy rural town or hamlet situated in a valley, e.g. "Sleepy Hollow". But if the Potters' home was in the *other* kind of "hollow", as in a hollow cave or chamber (of Secrets?), then she done quite a masterful job of leading us astray with wordplay! -- Dave From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 23:35:44 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK Cover closeup - comments on the ring (no real spoilers) In-Reply-To: <42AB3770.2080908@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20050611233544.44090.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130513 Tammy Rizzo wrote: >>http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/ring.gif >> >> >> ~*S*~ >> ~*P*~ >> ~*O*~ >> ~*I*~ >> ~*L*~ >> ~*E*~ >> ~*R*~ >> ~*~ >> ~*~ >> SPACE >> >Now, the pattern on the stone looks very like a crack, with >perhaps some chipping or spalling going on as well. > It *is* interesting that the crack is a lightning bolt shape. It might be coincidental, as it's common for cracks to take that sort of shape... but it could be meaningful as well. Perhaps it belonged to the Potters, and it cracked under LV's AK spell in the same pattern as it left on Harry at the same time, and there's some connection between that ring and the 'ancient magic' that protects him. Hmm. heather the buzzard I have not heard anyone mention if this is a man's or woman's ring. I get the feeling that everyone is assuming that it is a man's ring. I cannot help but think that it may be a woman's ring and building on what heather had to say..... what if it is Lily's ring... maybe a wedding ring that was in the potter family. Could it have been cracked as she was shielding Harry? moonmyyst --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Cfitz812 at aol.com Sat Jun 11 23:45:16 2005 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:45:16 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER In-Reply-To: <410-22005661116581578@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130514 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chancie " wrote: > With all the excitement over the full cover of HBP being > released, I thought a few of you might like to view this. > As well as releasing the cover art for HBP they have > also made a Screen Saver, with some VERY interesting > art work. Here's the Link for anyone who would like to see: > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/ring.gif > > > ~*S*~ > ~*P*~ > ~*O*~ > ~*I*~ > ~*L*~ > ~*E*~ > ~*R*~ > ~*~ > ~*~ > SPACE > ********************* > > This page includes a VERY close up view of the Ring, > and of the Hands in the "rope of fire". > > It's clear that one of the hands appears to be MUCH > older than the second as many have said, and the ring > appears to be more black than anything else from what > I can see. If I had to call the design in the ring anything, > it would probably have to be a lightning bolt, much like > Harry's scar. Any other thoughts? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Claire here (delurking after many months): The first thing that struck me about the ring is that it looks rather like yin and yang, with Harry and Voldemort being the two sides separated by the lightning bolt. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 00:00:04 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP Deluxe Cover (Spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050612000004.77342.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130515 Tonks wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stargzrsteve" wrote: > > > > > > > > >~*S*~ > > >~*P*~ > > >~*O*~ > > >~*I*~ > > >~*L*~ > > >~*E*~ > > >~*R*~ > > > > > >~*~*~*SPACE*~*~*~ > > > > Tonks: Whatever happens in HBP must be pretty impressive by the look of the front of the cover. We are going to see even more of DD's power. He is my hero so I am looking forward to this even if he dies in the end. I don't think he will stay dead. Maybe he is the half-blood prince. Tonks_op If DD is the half-blood prince, if DD dies, and with all the fire that we see on the cover, could DD be half phoenix? We see a lot of thorizing as to WHO is the HBP but I have not seen much about WHAT is the other half??? DD.... half decendent from GG and half phoenix...... or a step further over the edge..... with the experiments that LV has had with imortality, could DD not be GG who used dragon's blood to merge himself with a phoenix to become immortal? Could this be where LV got the idea?? moonmyyst (walking the fine line between fantasy and insanity) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 01:15:16 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:15:16 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the Strategist (Re: Has anyone thought that Dumbledore knows...) In-Reply-To: <20050611094103.80732.qmail@web60216.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130516 >>Michael (mggoulden): >Dumbledore is my favourite character in the books...... his positively ludicrous decision to entrust an innocent man's fate to two 13 year-old wizards, and something is decidedly fishy.< >>Eileen: >I thought myself that if DD wanted to save Sirius, he'd have found a more reliable way to do it than entrusting it to two kids with a time turner...< Betsy Hp: Except, one of those two kids has been using a time turner (with Ministry approval) for the entire school year. Hermione, at this point, probably has more experience in time turner use than most adult witches or wizards. Plus, Dumbledore has very little people he can trust at this point in PoA. Lupin is off in the Forbidden Forest, baying at the moon, Hagrid is off drinking somewhere, and Snape is at the very end of his tether and likely to do nothing to help Sirius even if under direct orders. Dumbledore himself can do nothing or he will be under immediate suspicion. For Sirius to be rescued he *had* to act quickly. Harry and Hermione were his only options, IMO. Also, as far as Harry's adventures go, his travel back in time was fairly benign. I don't recall a moment when either he or Hermione were in any kind of danger (note, I'm talking about the time travelling pair here). And Hermione had enough knowledge and responsibility (something I'm sure Dumbledore was aware of) to keep Harry from breaking the time traveler's code and seriously mucking up the time line. >>Eileen: >Since he had already seen that Buckbeak had vanished in a very short space of time, he would have been aware that a time turner might be in use by someone who was motivated to rescue Buckbeak.< Betsy Hp: Exactly! And who has been running around with a time turner all year? And really, once you've got a flying hippogriff on your side, staging a jail break from a tower room becomes, well, child's play. >>Eileen: >After he has spoken to Snape, (when Sirius is imprisoned in the castle and the kids are in the hospital wing) he knows that the dementors attacked Harry and Hermione (they also attacked Sirius but I don't think this is a major concern for DD) and that something drove them off. DD realises that the time turner is needed to drive away the dementors from Harry and Hermione, and that Harry with his 'saving people thing' can be relied on to do it while saving Sirius. Harry and Hermione, then, are the 'more than one innocent life' that DD intends to be saved.< Betsy Hp: I don't know if Dumbledore knew absolutely that time-turner!Harry had driven off the dementors. No one saw what had happened. However, he did know Harry had been taking Patronus lessons, so I imagine Dumbledore made an educated guess. Which would serve two purposes: a) it would reinforce the suggestion that a time turner had been in play; b) it would certainly suggest that if Harry *didn't* go back in time, he and Sirius would die. So I agree that Harry and Hermione were among the innocent lives saved. I do take issue with the idea that Dumbledore cared little if Sirius lived or died. Dumbledore, while a very clever and stratigic thinker, has always struck me as someone with a heart. I believe he was horrified to realize that Sirius had been innocent this entire time, especially since his testimony helped send Sirius away. And so I think the rescue of Sirius was definitely an important part of Dumbledore's goal when he sent Harry and Hermione off on their adventure. >>Michael: >I believe that in PS Dumbledore knew that Professor Quirrel was under the control of Voldemort. As such, he had the Philosopher's Stone placed in the school to tempt Voldemort out of hiding. Now, I'm sure the Headmaster didn't know Voldemort was under the turban, but he did know that he was around somewhere. His trick with the Mirror of Erised at the end was a masterstroke, possibly designed to keep Voldemort/Quirrel stumped so that he could confront them. Unfortunately, Harry got involved.< >>Eileen: >I think you're right, but that it was no accident that Harry got involved. The Mirror of Erised trick had to have someone with Harry's motivation involved in order to bring Voldemort out in the open - without him, you would have had Quirrell, the mirror, and stalemate.< Betsy Hp: But, wouldn't Dumbledore have *wanted* a stalemate? Honestly, I can't think of a worst case scenario than a highly gifted and intelligent Death Eater with his hands on both the Stone and Harry. It'd be like Christmas for Voldemort. However, a stumped Death Eater caught in front of a mirror that would never yield its prize sounds like a perfect trap to me. I agree with Michael that Harry's presence very nearly screwed the entire plan. Where I disagree with Michael is how quickly Quirrell was suspected. I think *Death Eater* activity was suspected (hence having Hagrid fetch the Stone to Hogwarts), but I think Dumbledore didn't realize it was Quirrell until Snape cottoned on to him after the troll incident. Since Quirrell was so young (and presumably not a Death Eater before his world tour) I'm sure they (Snape and Dumbledore) suspected an older more powerful Death Eater working behind him. I think the obstacles and the mirror were a very cleverly set up trap, and Harry was *never* supposed to be involved. >>Michael: >In OotP, the Headmaster utilised the same trick that he did in PS - he explicitly tempted Voldemort with an object the latter was desperate to obtain, i.e, the Prophecy. >In light of this, I have to ask myself, would Dumbledore do things differently if he could go back and change things? And even though he's my favourite character, I have to say that, given the choice, Dumbledore probably wouldn't change a thing.< >>Eileen: >I quite agree that he wouldn't want to change a thing; Voledemort out in the open exactly as planned, and Sirius'life sacrificed for Harry as a bonus. He might have some difficult explaining to do, but for him that would be a small price to pay.< Betsy Hp: Again, I agree with the Prophecy being bait in a trap, just like the Stone in PS/SS. However I do disagree with the thought of Dumbledore being so cold blooded. Yes, the losses the Order endured were small; Sirius was their weakest member. But I think Dumbledore highly regrets his loss. Especially since he'd been so recently returned to them. And though Sirius was a weak member of the Order, I don't think he was an actual liability. Honestly, the amount of Order members seem small enough that I imagine Dumbledore has uses for every member he can find. Betsy Hp From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 02:09:16 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:09:16 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: <20050611063402.16849.qmail@web60213.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130517 Eileen: > On balance, Sirius' death suits DD: He got Harry away from the 'danger' of being brought up by his nominated guardian by getting Hagrid to deliver him to Privet Drive and the Dursleys only to have him back on his hands after Peter Pettigrew returns to VM, and with increasing influence on Harry. Sirius vindicated and guardian of Harry is still very much a threat to DD's plans; Sirius loved and dead is a very important part of the process of turning Harry into a weapon for the Order against VM. Alla: Could you please clarify something for me? Are you saying that Dumbledore KNEW in advance ( as in foreseeing the future or something like that) that Sirius would die and did not do anything to avoid him or you are simply saying that NOW when Dumbledore evaluates the situation after the fact , Sirius' death suits him? Because if it is the first one, I want to raise my very old problem with such argument - I think this would make Dumbledore to be one of the most idiotic generals in the history of literature. :-) Consider very simple scenario - Harry LEARNS that Dumbledore somehow played a direct part in Sirius' death. Don't you think that Harry would refuse to fight for Dumbledore cause if he learns that? Now, if you are arguing the second scenario , well it very well could be that Dumbledore decides that Sirius' death suits him, but I am still not sure how, since even without Dumbledore's direct involvement Harry is pretty mad him at the end of OOP and I am thinking that Dumbledore would prefer the relationship between them to be diffrent than it is now ( judging by the covers I hope it would be better in HBP :-)) Eileen: > DD is, among other things, ensuring that when Harry focuses on Sirius' death (small picture) he will have the prophecy (big picture) context to place it in. Harry is currently blaming Snape for Sirus' death, but when if and when he recognises DD's involvement and does not understand the mitigating circumstances, it could lead to a dangerous breach between them - DD doesn't want to find himself up against the sharp end of his own Weapon!Harry Alla: Right, so you made a pretty convincing argument as to why Dumbledore would NOT want Harry to be more mad at him and he sure would be IF Dumbledore indeed was complicit in Sirius' death. I am honestly confused as to how Sirius' death suits Dumbledore Eileen: Just a few thoughts. I only finished reading the books in February, so I'm still trying to play catchup and may have missed a lot of key posts - if anyone can point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it! Alla: Welcome! I did like your post, but if you could provide more clarification, I would be very grateful. Betsy Hp: Again, I agree with the Prophecy being bait in a trap, just like the Stone in PS/SS. However I do disagree with the thought of Dumbledore being so cold blooded. Yes, the losses the Order endured were small; Sirius was their weakest member. But I think Dumbledore highly regrets his loss. Especially since he'd been so recently returned to them. And though Sirius was a weak member of the Order, I don't think he was an actual liability. Honestly, the amount of Order members seem small enough that I imagine Dumbledore has uses for every member he can find. Alla: Cough, cough... I agree with you, well sort of. I disagree with the part of "Sirius being the Order weakest member" for many reasons. Harry getting emotional support from him being one( if not much in OOP, then definitely in GoF) and I am of firm opinion that emotional health of the most important person in this war does mean something. I also think that Dumbledore could have made use of Sirius' unregistered animagus form, if he really put his mind to it. Yeah, so what do I agree with you about? I agree that Dumbledore is not so cold blooded as to not care whether Sirius lives or dies, or at the very least I want to believe that. Just my opinion, Alla. From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 11 23:26:34 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:26:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goderic's Hollow In-Reply-To: <1041605534.20050611154146@mindspring.com> References: <20050610215325.48062.qmail@web32607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1041605534.20050611154146@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <42AB732A.8080005@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130518 ***SPOILER SPACE*** >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >Friday, June 10, 2005, 2:53:25 PM, Mira wrote: > >M> Come to think of it, it is more than obvious: the >M> cover describes an underground bay which is... The >M> Godric Hollow! Hollow, because it is cave-like. > > Dave Hardenbrook wrote: >If you're right, then I think Jo has engaged in a very clever bit of >punstering (is that a word?) -- By the numerous references of the >Potters living in Goderic's "Hollow", she has put into our minds the >kind of hollow that is a cozy rural town or hamlet situated in a >valley, e.g. "Sleepy Hollow". > Heather now: Except for the fact that JKR has said outright that Godric's Hollow is a village. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=86 So unless she's lying in her own FAQ, she's not using that sort of wordplay. Besides which again, where would Lily and James' house have been? Voldy went up to the 'front door', not the 'mouth of the cave'. Also, JKR apparently had direct input into the film scene of GH, and it looked like a pretty straight-forward normal house in normal (ie, not cave) surroundings. Cute idea, but it doesn't stand up to canon. I just think it's a hitherto-undiscovered part of the Chamber of Secrets. :) heather the buzzard From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 11 19:54:46 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:54:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] full cover: the ring - SPOLER In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42AB4186.3040300@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130519 Karen Barker wrote: >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >S >P >O >I >L >E >R > > > > > >OMG I think it's the dark mark - I have just zoomed right into it >and if you look at it with your head on your left shoulder it looks >like a skull behind the obvious 'slash' which would then be the >serpent in the mouth. > >Can anyone else see this? > > I can sorta see how you could see this; however, if you look at the new art, the one where the ring is more clearly black, it's quite definitely NOT the dark mark. I remain totally convinced that it is a crack in the gemstone. heather the buzzard From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jun 12 02:15:00 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:15:00 EDT Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... Message-ID: <87.29776a56.2fdcf4a4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130520 m o r e S P O I L E R S P A C E Laura wrote: > > I think the arms look definitely like one older and one younger, > corresponding to the front cover? - Harry and DD? I didn't see > them as arm-wrestling, though, but rather holding on to control > or transfer some energy. > > Probably over-interpretation of the whole thing. > Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net > > Julie says: That's my first impression too--that the two hands are gripped together creating or controlling the energy. Oddly, my other first impression was that the two hands were of a woman and a man. I didn't immediately think the larger hand and wrist belonged to someone older, just someone male. And for some reason, I thought of James and Lily. I did take a second look, and I don't really see the larger hand and arm as necessarily belonging to an "old" person (such as DD). We are seeing the inside of a wrist, and when a person has a tight grip on something the bones and sometimes veins of the wrist stand out in relief. Also some people naturally have thinner skin and veins closer to the surface, while others have to interminably poked and prodded to find a vein. The smaller hand/wrist could certainly be Harry's (as teenage boys still haven't fully developed their musculature), or it could be a woman's hand/wrist. But I think the larger hand could be any fully grown man's--DD, James, Sirius, Salazar, etc. Julie (who could only find a very fuzzy close-up look at the hands) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From weaslediva at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 00:20:00 2005 From: weaslediva at yahoo.com (Deborah Hunt) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050612002000.17623.qmail@web60823.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130521 Kaylee Tonks-Lupin here: I wouldn't think so. Sorry for not having the canon to prove it (help would be much appreciated) but I believe the MM would only show places the Marauders had visited, and as none of them were the Heir of Slytherin and there's no record of Basilisk attacks during the Marauders' time period, Weaslediva: Since Peter Pettigrew returned to Hogwarts and noting the rat debris in the Chamber, it is entirely possible that he now knows about the chamber. Also, a movie clue, yet interesting to note, the movie specifically shows a rat running around while Harry is running from teh basilisk. Weaslediva __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 03:49:41 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:49:41 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130522 >>Betsy Hp: >Yes, the losses the Order endured were small; Sirius was their weakest member. But I think Dumbledore highly regrets his loss.< >>Alla: >Cough, cough... I agree with you, well sort of.< Betsy Hp: Hee! Well, even partial agreement is good. :) >Alla: >I disagree with the part of "Sirius being the Order weakest member" for many reasons. Harry getting emotional support from him being one (if not much in OOP, then definitely in GoF) and I am of firm opinion that emotional health of the most important person in this war does mean something.< Betsy Hp: I agree about Sirius being an emotional support for Harry. Though Sirius is so emotionally bruised himself in OotP that I think he's not always the best influence on Harry. However, his love for Harry is genuine and I think that it's one of Sirius' strongest assests to the Order. (Well that, and his connection to the underground. Didn't Sirius bring Mundungus in?) The reason I think Sirius was the weakest member of the Order was his own emotional instability (I wonder how much drinking alone he did throughout OotP) and the fact that he was a wanted criminal. Sirius was of very little use to the Order because he wasn't able to leave the Headquarters. Everyone else in the Order seemed heavily involved in various diplomatic and reconnaissance type work that Sirius could not participate in. It's also unfortunate that his animagus form had been compromised. >>Alla: >I also think that Dumbledore could have made use of Sirius' unregistered animagus form, if he really put his mind to it.< Betsy Hp: Honestly, I think the fact that Dumbledore *didn't* find ways to make more use of Sirius suggests that Dumbledore cared for him. I think Dumbledore wanted to keep Sirius safe. Just as he wanted to keep Harry safe. After all, Sirius was a powerful and intelligent wizard. I'm sure there were ways he could have been helpful. The risk of his capture (by the Ministry or Death Eaters) would have been there, but Sirius had already shown himself to be fairly cagey. Betsy Hp From AllieS426 at aol.com Sun Jun 12 04:05:00 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 04:05:00 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130523 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "AyanEva" wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > I do hope this is sufficient "spoiler space." > > > > > The cave is at Hogwarts, hidden under the lake, or under the > cliff. > > > The boat may not actually be gold, but just glowing from > reflected > > light. > > > > you know, all that greeninsh light... it seem a ghost boat, to > me... > > maybe it means something from the past. > > > The cave and pensieve are in the Chamber of Secrets, which can be > > > explored now that the basilisk is gone, and the pensieve is Tom> > Riddle's. > Are we sure that it's a cave? My first impression was that the boat was in front of the outline of a fence, and for some reason I thought of a graveyard. THE graveyard maybe? Allie From ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 04:15:07 2005 From: ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com (Constance Vigilance) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 04:15:07 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130524 ***********SPOILER****************** * S * P * O * I * L * E * R * * * * Regarding the boat. I feel quite confident that this is a First Year's boat. There is a literary device, commonly known as Chekov's rifle, that says, if you bring a rifle on stage, someone must eventually fire it. We were set up with these small boats early in the series and haven't heard from them since. Furthermore, there seems to be very little reason for having the boats in the first place. Unless they were to become critical in a future book. As many who have read my Quirrell To The Rescue theory know, these boats are an important part to the theory. For a quick rundown of the important bits, I believe Quirrell survived the showdown in the Mirror room and escaped, with Dumbledore's help, out through the Hogwarts plumbing into the lake where he took a First Year's boat to Durmstrang. There are good and logical reasons for all these points. My point is not to debate my theory here, but to give a reason for there being 1) a small boat and 2) ready access to water beneath Hogwarts. I think there is quite a network of catecombs beneath Hogwarts, and I think these are watery. Reasons? 1 - There was surely a backdoor into the Sorceror's Stone maze. How else could Quirrell have gotten the gigantic Mountain Troll into the 5th room of the maze? Up to the 3rd floor and then down through the trapdoor? Not likely. There must have been a backdoor. I'm hypothesizing that the entrance is through the Hogwarts plumbing and into the room that would hold the Mirror of Erised and then through the room that would hold Snape's challenge. It is just the most likely explanation of how Quirrell got the troll into position, and it jibes well with watery access below Hogwarts. 2 - The plural of Chamber of Secrets. This room is wet and far below Hogwarts. How did the small animals get in there for the basilisk to feed upon? Down Myrtle's pipe? Or through another access? I think there must be a way to get from the Basilisk chamber to the outside. I have no proof that the way must be wet, but it just seems logical, and I'll leave it at that. I think there is much yet to be discovered below Hogwarts that having a small boat would be quite handy. So that is why I think it is a First Year boat, taken by someone, presumeably Harry, to another Secret in the chamber. ~Constance Vigilance From k.coble at comcast.net Sat Jun 11 21:12:31 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:12:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] full cover - SPOLER In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <636a0263e76d847e4cb5f7367611b2ae@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130525 Please, everyone. Please please please watch the titles of your posts. For those of us puposely avoiding details of the full cover, there was a header on the original post that gives something away. (Yeah, I'm trying to avoid cover details.....) Thanks, Katherine From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 05:13:49 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:13:49 -0000 Subject: Wand question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130526 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > I'm having a Star Wars weekend with my 9-year-old Godson, and out of > no where, whilst playing with my CoS Lego set, he asked me "how do > they know which end the magic comes out of?" > > I had never thought of this before. I would assume a wand can be held backwards, and that pointing a wand the wrong way would cast the curse in the opposite direction. Are they tapered (like a conductor's > baton) or do they have a definite "handle"? Do they just feel it? > > Any thoughts? Now he's got me curious. Tonks: A magic wand works because the wizard knows how to channel the powers of the universe and his own personal mental powers through a wand. Your grandson is confused about this as are many Muggle children. The wand does not hold the power it is only the conducting material. Some such as in the RW who are specialist in some of the Martial Arts can do like Yoda and use wandless magic and repel an enemy with just the power of their mind channeling the chi. (I saw this demonstrated on a Bill Moyer special on PBS once some years ago.) Our wizards in the WW could do that as well with years of experience. But most wizards and certainly younger wizards use a wand. I am told that there is an historical connection between the wand and the baton. I was asleep a lot in History of Magic class and forgot most of that part of the history, but I know that one came from the other. I also remember something about some wands being black on one end and white on the other. This is a way for a straight wand to be used for positive energy or negative energy. The color that is pointed away from you is the one in use. (I an not sure where this idea came from.) Again I don't remember a lot about this tidbit of history either. Ah, poor professor Bimms, it is a wonder any of us every pass our OWLS. Some wands have handles of varying sorts and some are tapered. Some have a crystal on the tip to help channel the energy. (Some healers use just a 4 to 6 inch crystal held in their hand and nothing else.) Each type of wood has different magical properties and can enhance the type of magic that is being used by adding a bit of its own natural power. And in Harry's world adding a Phoenix feather, or dragon heart string, etc. gives some of the power of that animal to the wand as well. This probably fits in with the Shaman traditions. Some Wicca folks, I understand, like a wand with different types of wood in one wand. There are whole books written about wands. To answer the basic question that was asked here, I personally think that the handle allows one to hold on to the wand better that just a straight piece of wood. It is important that the wand not be broken as Ron's was, because that will mess up the flow of energy. Basically magic is done with the power of the mind connecting with a power outside of itself and channeling that power. Some channel that power just through their hands as in the healing arts. It is a very real power and not just in JKR made-up world. The first to use it were the Shaman, it is used in all religions and in New Age healing practices. It is only called *magic* by those who don't understand the source or the process. IMO. Tonks_op From seusilva at uol.com.br Sat Jun 11 20:31:33 2005 From: seusilva at uol.com.br (jim potter) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:31:33 -0300 Subject: UK Cover closeup - comments on the ring (no real spoilers) In-Reply-To: <42AB3770.2080908@sympatico.ca> References: <42AAF1E7.26617.9A8A10C@localhost> <42AAF1E7.26617.9A8A10C@localhost> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050611172840.00a4a4c0@pop3.uol.com.br> No: HPFGUIDX 130527 >heather the buzzard: >I like to think that it's a family stone, perhaps with a coat of >arms. If it belongs to the Black family, then it cracked when >Sirius died (as the last real "Black"). > >I also like the idea that the ring belongs (or belonged) to the >HBP, who is an ancient, historical character and so this ring is >an antique, cracked with age. > > Perhaps it belonged to the Potters, and it cracked under >LV's AK spell in the same pattern as it left on Harry at the same >time, and there's some connection between that ring and the >'ancient magic' that protects him. A passage from OoP: "They found an unpleasant-looking silver instrument, something like a many-legged pair of tweezers, which scuttled up Harrys arm like a spider when he picked it up, and attempted to puncture his skin. Sirius seized it and smashed it with a heavy book entitled Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Genealogy.(...) "Several times Kreacher sidled into the room and attempted to smuggle things away under his loincloth, muttering horrible curses every time they caught him at it. When Sirius wrested a large golden ring bearing the Black crest from his grip, Kreacher actually burst into furious tears and left the room sobbing under his breath and calling Sirius names Harry had never heard before. 'It was my father's,' said Sirius, throwing the ring into the sack. 'Kreacher wasn't quite as devoted to him as to my mother, but 1 still caught him snogging a pair of my father's old trousers last week.' " "seusilva" From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jun 12 06:47:01 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:47:01 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: <20050611024114.18307.qmail@web32708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kelly Pelton wrote: Kelly: > Just a quick question, does anyone know if the Chamber of Secrets appears on the Marauder's Map? Geoff: I'm mildly surprised that no one has referred to the following piece of canon which I turned to straight away. '"Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at the school. The heir alone would be able to unseal the Chamber of Secrets, unleash the horror within and use it to purge the school of all who were unworthy to study magic." There was silence as he finished telling the story but it wasn't the usual sleepy silence that filled Professor Binns' classes. There was unease in the air as everyone continued to watch him, hoping for more. Professor Binns looked faintly annoyed. "The whole thing is arrant nonsense, of course," he said. "Naturally, the school has been searched for evidence of such a chamber, many times, by the most learned witches and wizards. It does not exist. A tale told to frighten the gullible"..... ...."That will do," he said sharply. "It is a myth! It does not exist! There is not a shred of evidence that Slytherin ever built so much as a secret broom cupboard!...." (COS "The Writing on the Wall" pp.114-115 UK edition) The implication of this is that, although it is a known fact to staff, it is not mentioned generally so that pupils probably do not know about the story and so it would not be on the Marauders' Map anyway. It is noticeable that it is Hermione who asks Binns the question and she is probably the only person in the school who has bothered to read "Hogwarts: A History" where there might be a mention.... From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 12 01:37:00 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Final Showdown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050612013700.17275.qmail@web80106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130529 Antosha wrote: >>Something occurred to me recently. We've all been assuming that >>the Big Confrontation between Harry and LV will take place at >>the end of book seven, most likely in June of his seventh year. >>It stands to reason, after all--that's the pattern that's been >>set up. >> >>But there's nothing to say that the final battle won't take >>place earlier, is there? Say, at Halloween of his seventh year? >>Or even during HBP? If that were to be the case, the rest of >>the book(s) would deal with all of the other issues--the sorting >>out of loyalties and romantic stuff, the paying of old debts, >>that sort of thing. >> >>So, what do we think? Is there any possibility that LV will buy >>it before June of 1998? Chris now: I have been reasonably certain all along that LV will snuff it about half way, or maybe a little more, through book 7. (Weren't we told, I forget where, that book 6 is kind of a part 1 of 2?) This would leave plenty of space for the wrap up. I strongly believe that Harry, as well as Ron and Hermione, will live to see their graduations. I also believe that Harry will retain all of his magic. I am not as certain about any of the "transferred" powers inadvertently given him by LV, he may or may not retain those. There has to be a kind of epilogue at the very end. We have been told by JKR that there will be no need for any more books after #7, so a wrap up, IMO, is a definite. Chris (flowerchild4) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 12 03:05:28 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:05:28 -0400 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: <87.29776a56.2fdcf4a4@aol.com> References: <87.29776a56.2fdcf4a4@aol.com> Message-ID: <42ABA678.9010808@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130530 >m >o >r >e > > >S >P >O >I >L >E >R > > >S >P >A >C >E > > >Julie says: >Oddly, my other first impression was that the two hands were >of a woman and a man. I didn't immediately think the larger >hand and wrist belonged to someone older, just someone male. >And for some reason, I thought of James and Lily. Oh yeah, that reminded me. I did have a thought that this was representative of a wizard's wedding ceremony... a symbolic band of fire uniting the two lives. My SO's thought was of perhaps Ron and Hermione... hey, they're 16 now, they probably could with permission... it could be anyone, but a young marriage in the face of danger might be interesting. I hadn't thought of it being James and Lily, though. I like that idea, considering we're likely to get more backstory on them this time around. Then, perhaps the ring is a wizard wedding band, and it's broken for some symbolic reason... Lily's secret? Petunia's secret? The mystery around where James was during GH? The ring is featured prominently on the screensaver pic with the clasped hands, they have GOT to be related. >Julie: >The smaller hand/wrist could certainly be Harry's (as teenage >boys still haven't fully developed their musculature), or it >could be a woman's hand/wrist. I agree that it *could* be a woman's hand, but it doesn't really strike me as such. It has an underdeveloped-ness that makes me 99% sure that it's a young person (male or female). heather the buzzard From prncssme at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 03:29:21 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:29:21 -0000 Subject: If Dumbledore dies...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130531 > > flyingmonkeypurple: > > If Dumbledore dies then Lv can do what ever he wants to do. > > Harry has no chance without Dumbledore alive. If Dumbledore > > gone who is going to run the order to stop LV. > JLV: > Harry can - he already has his own version of the Order - the > DA - and I'm sure that, now he's older, Harry will be capable > of going it alone. He has many of Voldemort's own special > powers and he is capable of becoming a very powerful wizard. Princess Sara: I have to agree with JLV here. Dumbledore may be the only wizard LV is afraid of but if I remember correctly, this is only said before Harry re-enters the WW. Just because he's out of the way, doesn't mean Harry's as good as dead. > > flyingmonkeypurple: They might as well all kiss their > > safety goodbye. > JLV: > It will be dangerous, yes, (and exciting for us readers) but > I'm sure Harry will pull through. He has to if the Good is to > win over the Evil. Princess Sara: Although I really wouldn't be surprised if Dumbledore gives up the ghost in HBP, I think it would present some logistical problems with regards to the safety of Hogwarts. Dumbledore, as headmaster, would reasonably have some knowledge of the spells needed to maintain the anti-apperation wardsand other various protections of the school. Also, the assumption most people in canon make (and I will admit to that being an assumption) is that Hogwarts is safe because of the "only one he ever feared" thing. These two factors leave me with the impression that Hogwarts would be breached very quickly after DD's death or incapacitation. Assuming whatever deaths there are in HBP come at the end (as has been the pattern thus far), this would mean that LV's attack on Hogwarts would happen at the beginning of the seventh book. This would inevitably lead to the showdown between Harry and LV... JKR has followed a pretty predicatble set up with her boarding school framing narrative and I highly doubt she'd break from it. That's why I find the idea of DD's death in book six problematic. Now, in book 7, I'm all for seeing him "buy the farm"! ;o) > JLV: > And anyway, if Dumbledore does bite the big one, who says he > has to be murdered by Voldemort? Why can't he pass away of > old age - it must happen to some wizards and he is very old. > The narrative occasionally notes that Harry has noticed how > very old Dumbledore looks. I'm sure Dumbledore would prefer > to pass peacefully than be blown up... at least *I* would. Princess Sara: Wouldn't it just be delightfully anti-climactic if DD just died in his sleep. I don't think that'll happen but it would be a great twist if it did! From vloe at dallasnews.com Sun Jun 12 03:44:25 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (firebird) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:44:25 -0000 Subject: Voldemort, dragon's blood and the AK curse (revised) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130532 >bboyminn wrote: >A lot of people have speculated that Snape helped Voldemort with >his Immortality Experiments, but Voldemort is twice as old as >Snape. I have to believe Voldemort performed many, or some, of >his experiments before Snape was even born. That however, does >not mean that Snape couldn't have help with later experiments. firebird now: Despite the age difference, I like this idea. It would help to account for Snape's extremely complicated attitude toward Harry. If he feels some residual guilt for LV'S survival, that would explain why he protects Harry and torments him at the same time. Very interesting. >bboyminn wrote: >People are always specualting that Lily performed, /performed/ >not just invoked, some ancient magic at Godrics Hollow. Perhaps >she was feeding Harry a dragon blood potion to protect him. > >Others, meaning ME, have speculated that Voldemort will kill >Harry but only by technical definition. In that moment of Harry's >apparent death, Voldemort will be at his peak vulnerability, >which will allow someone else to kill him. So, to allow Harry a >technical death but still protecting him from true death, Harry >will take a protective, but short term, dragon blood potion, >and/or a restorative or reviving dragon blood potion. firebird now: Very Romeo-and-Juliet (the part about taking a potion that simulates death). Those are perfectly plausible theories, but for some reason that I can't explain, I'd rather think that love alone is what saved Harry in the beginning and will somehow save him in the end. Pretty soppy (and not particularly canonical), but there it is. >Firebird earlier: > come to think of it, Voldy IS an experiment in immorality. > >Geoff: >Your final line reminded me of one of my favourite quotes from >the Narnia books. > > >Now all we need is for us to fit Voldemort into a similar context >and he will rush from the scene blushing - not because Harry >kissed him as I wickedly suggested in message 129988 - but >because of acute embarrassment at being laughed at.... :-) firebird now: Sounds like a job for the Weasley twins. Actually, I've always thought that the joke shop will play some kind of pivotal role in the end. There's something about Gred and Forge's subversive humor that might really shake up LV. After all, if there was ever a guy who takes himself too seriously, it's the DL. From quick_silver71 at yahoo.ca Sun Jun 12 05:43:11 2005 From: quick_silver71 at yahoo.ca (quick_silver71) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:43:11 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130533 horridporrid03 wrote: > The reason I think Sirius was the weakest member of the Order > was his own emotional instability and the fact that he > was a wanted criminal. Sirius was of very little use to the > Order because he wasn't able to leave the Headquarters. > Everyone else in the Order seemed heavily involved in various > diplomatic and reconnaissance type work that Sirius could not > participate in. I disagree. Sirius is probably one of the stonger Order members magcially speaking. Of the 5 that go to the DoM two, Tonks and Moody (both Aurors), are taken out by the DEs with ease (they fail to take a single DE with them). Sirius loses to Bellatrix but so does Kingsley...the only difference being that there was a veil behind Sirius. Sirius main problem is that he lacks a skill that the Order can regularly use not the he is a weak member. "quick_silver71" From shelbyleigh at gmail.com Sat Jun 11 22:18:45 2005 From: shelbyleigh at gmail.com (Shelby) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:18:45 -0000 Subject: Question: Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130534 Forgive me in advance if someone else has asked this question but as I am finding it hard to keep ahead of all the post or even with them I beg your indulgance. What is the Prediction Contest? Do we need to answer specific questions or just say what we predict? Where can I post my answers to the prediction contest? If there is any other information that I may need please let me know. Shelby Elf note: TK - TigerPatronus' original Prediction Contest post can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128530 though possibly there may be some updates or such that TK can direct you to... :-) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 12 08:46:51 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 08:46:51 -0000 Subject: Prefect / Malfoys / Fidelius Charm / Boggart / do wizards have fiction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130535 Phoenixgod mentioned in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130149 : << It also struck me as odd that if he wanted to give Harry a normal teenagers life for one more year, why not make him a prefect. his reasoning always seemed off to me, but a relatively minor off compared to other more glaring issues I have. >> Being made a prefect was much more important for Ron than for Harry. For Ron, it not only got him his mother's approval instead of disapproval, it got him a new broomstick, without which he wouldn't have been able to join the Quidditch team. (I had been hoping for years that Ron would become prefect and Keeper, but *expecting* that the prefect would be either Harry because he's the hero or Neville because DD figured it would improve him.) But in that final conversation, it would have been utterly counter- productive for DD to tell Harry that Ron needed to be prefect more than he did. And telling Harry that DD 'recognized' that he should have been prefect but DD had the most affectionate reason for not appointing him served Dumbledore's purpose of making Harry feel appreciated. Of course, this implies that Dumbledore was lying in the very conversation where he had finally promised to tell the whole truth.... Danny wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130171 a lot of things I agree with and also: << I'd like to think of their marriage as an arranged one . with being THE pureblooded family the Malfoys are (and have been) I think the expectations on Lucius have been equally high as they are on Draco. And a good looking woman from an old and pureblood family as the Blacks (and having the same political believes!) ... and being around the same age as Lucius, I think a father (who likes arranging things) must be hard pressed, NOT to use this opportunity. >> You'd probably right about what JKR will tell us really happened, but I still prefer to believe that Lucius and Narcissa arranged their own marriage. They must have known each other at Hogwarts if not before, and they knew each other's worthy bloodlines and wealth, each other's shared beliefs and ambitions, and and recognized each other as a worthy and helpful partner. I like to believe that they enjoyed each other's company as well as being sexually attractive to each other. The latter two points are not required for a 'suitable' marriage but make it more enjoyable. They told their parents they wanted to marry each other before the parents got around to arranging it. Rose Red wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130172 : << Pettigrew was the only person who could let anybody know where the Potters were. Hagrid delivered baby Harry to his Aunt and Uncle. Ummmm....is it just me or there is a huge non-sequitor here? Somehow the news got out, and only Pettigrew could let people know there was even news to tell. >> As we saw in OoP, the Secret Keeper can 'tell' the Secret via written note. I figure that Peter wrote such a note to Sirius, and wrote such a note to Dumbledore but disguising his handwriting to look like Sirius's. He could have written another note to Hagrid or Dumbledore could have shown his note to Hagrid (which strikes me as kind of a rude thing to do with someone else's secret). wherr009 wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130249 : << Who performed the Fidelis (sp?) charm to hide the potters? Was it James or Lily or someone else? >> I think it must have been James or Lily or Sirius or Peter, because their big idea was that everyone would think Sirius was the Secret Keeper but really Peter was the Secret Keeper (therefore the bad guys would try to capture and torture Sirius for the information, but Sirius wouldn't be able to reveal it because he wasn't the Secret Keeper; it apparently never occured to Sirius that he *did* know that Peter was the Secret Keeper and where Peter was hiding, so he *could* have been made to reveal that to the bad guys, who could then capture and torture Peter). Therefore, it would have been very foolish to allow yet another person to know (via casting the spell) that Peter was really the Secret Keeper. (Of course I am jumping to the assumption that the person who casts the spell must know who the Secret Keeper is, probably must cast it on him in person.) Further, I assume that Peter didn't cast the spell because he was the magically weakest of the four. If the Fidelius Charm requires to be cast by a person who is neither the Secret Keeper nor the Secret's owner, then it would have been Sirius. Potioncat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130260 : << I've had to remind myself that this is fiction, and JKR or any author, could ignore certain possibilities, but I've thought this too. Neville's fear of Snape is played for humor in this chapter, but what if it had been a real, more personal fear? What if the biggest fear was being hurt by a parent? Or being afraid of a parent, or a classmate? I thought that before OoP, and once we saw Molly's Boggart I wondered to myself, how could you possibly Riddikulus that away! >> I wrote a fanfic of "Lupin's Boggart Class with the Third Year Slytherins" in which Draco's biggest fear was Lucius, Blaise's biggest fear was Draco, Pansy's biggest fear was dying the way her mother had, and Millicent's biggest fear was her mother dying the way her father had. Lupin and the kids turned these fears into jokes adequately enough to dispell the Boggart. I figure a DADA teacher has to be able to think on his feet. The difference with having the Boggart appear as Voldemort is that the whole class, at least all the kids from wizarding families, would totally panic and it would be impossible to keep order. Here I am imagining, as apparently was Remus, that people who know about Voldemort know what he looks like, enough to recognize him. Tamara wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130468 : << ... Hermione, Harry and Ron do not read for pleasure, unless it is non-fiction such as the history of Quidditch. The only celebrity whom has appeared has been a non-fiction author. Does fiction not exist in the magically world? >> I'm afraid that may be so. Here's something JKR said in the World Book Day chat: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm << mnich: If you had a job in the wizarding world, what do you think you would be? JK Rowling replies -> I can't think of anything I'd rather do than write, so I suppose I'd write spellbooks! >> I can't imagine a world without stories (violent adventure stories, sleazy romance stories, funny stories mocking inferior people like Muggles), so I'd think she could have the exact same job in the wizarding world that she has in this one. From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 10:13:28 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:13:28 -0000 Subject: Wand question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kempermentor" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" > wrote: > > I'm having a Star Wars weekend with my 9-year-old Godson, and out > of > > no where, whilst playing with my CoS Lego set, he asked me "how do > > they know which end the magic comes out of?" > > > ... > > Any thoughts? > > > Kemper: > I'm guessing that Olivander bores out a twig from one of the special > wand trees (the ones with those tree faerie things with the sharp > teeth, then places the magical core (dragon heart string, unicorn > hair, phoenix feather). Maybe there's some magical fussion on > Olivander's part, leaving the wand essentially a twig of varying > length. So, what I'm taking a long time to say is that the wizard > probably holds the weightier side of the twig which is probably the > side with more overall circumference than the other. It's more > ergonomical. Finwitch: It's entirely possible that the magic comes out of the end the wizard wants it to come out of... Intention and all that... At any case, I'd say that to a wizard a question like 'which end is which' is something they never think of, something so self-clear it needs no explaining. Apparently even two-year-olds can tell the difference (remember Kevin enlarging a slug), so I suppose it's instinctive... If it matters at which end a wizard holds his wand, I'd say that the wizards can sense that magic by instinct to know it. You know - like how do two magnets know which way they'll connect/reject? Magnetic Force -- and you CAN make things like paperclips float in midair... or even summon needles... Speaking of which -- I think there IS a connection between Magnetism and Magic... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 10:34:55 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:34:55 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130537 > Betsy Hp: > I agree about Sirius being an emotional support for Harry. Though > Sirius is so emotionally bruised himself in OotP that I think he's > not always the best influence on Harry. However, his love for Harry > is genuine and I think that it's one of Sirius' strongest assests to > the Order. (Well that, and his connection to the underground. > Didn't Sirius bring Mundungus in?) > The reason I think Sirius was the weakest member of the Order was his > own emotional instability (I wonder how much drinking alone he did > throughout OotP) and the fact that he was a wanted criminal. Sirius > was of very little use to the Order because he wasn't able to leave > the Headquarters. Everyone else in the Order seemed heavily involved > in various diplomatic and reconnaissance type work that Sirius could > not participate in. It's also unfortunate that his animagus form had > been compromised. Finwitch: Well, yes - Sirius was emotionally unstable. I believe he was fighting for his sanity and claustrophobia. His love for Harry is the one thing that helps him. Obsession got him out of Azkaban. (and since then, he's had a tendency to fall on obsessions. I think he was obsessed about getting rid of Black things, but not enough so to kill Kreacher...) As for Mundungus, he's in because he owes Dumbledore -- so no. As for Harry, they keep each other sane. Sirius is LESS obsessed whenever Harry is around. Like with the tapestry - the portrait - even Kreacher... and of course, Lupin helps also. As for Sirius' disappearances... was Lupin around? If not, it may be on Full Moon and Padfoot kept Moony company... he may have been writing letters to be opened in case of his death or something like that... looking after Buckbeak, too. Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 11:07:02 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:07:02 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130538 > > Kaylee Tonks-Lupin here: > > I wouldn't think so. Sorry for not having the canon to prove it (help would > be much appreciated) but I believe the MM would only show places the Marauders > had visited, and as none of them were the Heir of Slytherin and there's no > record of Basilisk attacks during the Marauders' time period, I highly doubt > MWPP knew about it. > Finwitch here: I agree - it won't appear. Because even if the Marauders HAD figured out there was one - (like Tom did, reading Hogwarts:a History, Myrtle, Hagrid, Aragog...) and then they WOULD have tried to find it -- they had to find, and possibly even enter - all those places appearing on the map... I think it was required to enter a place to put it onto the map. They may have figured out the basilisk etc. but NOT enter. (None of them is/was a parselmouth, after all) Aside from the Chamber, there's also the Room of Requirement that doesn't appear on the map -- as the Marauders never found it. (Or Sirius would definately had told Harry about it instead of that corridor...). Of course, as Harry has found them, he might ADD those places onto the map. (Lupin can tell him how). Finwitch From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Sun Jun 12 12:14:32 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:14:32 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Claire" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chancie " > wrote: > > With all the excitement over the full cover of HBP being > > released, I thought a few of you might like to view this. > > As well as releasing the cover art for HBP they have > > also made a Screen Saver, with some VERY interesting > > art work. Here's the Link for anyone who would like to see: > > > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/ring.gif > > > > > > ~*S*~ > > ~*P*~ > > ~*O*~ > > ~*I*~ > > ~*L*~ > > ~*E*~ > > ~*R*~ > > ~*~ > > ~*~ > > SPACE Julia here: Some random thoughts about the ring (and those hands which appear in the screensaver along with the ring): First of all - I think that it is a crest of Slytherin "in" this ring. Dont know why Slytherin's but that's my guess. It's black which reminds me of something dead, not alive any more or just destroyed and without any power left. The crack on it in the shape of lighting bolt can be a connection to Harry and the events in GH - the crack might have appeared exactly then! But at the same time it can be just a coincidence cause cracks on various things almost always are in that shape. It could also be destroyed on purpose - maybe it was some kind of a seal that was broken (you know, something like the one that Pope owns - it's made when the new Pope is elected and broken when he dies...) I think that this ring can be HBP's and the other hand (one belongs to Harry) might be the hand of HBP's too. Which would mean that HBP is a Slytherin... Maybe the secret of the ring is one of the secrets that lie in the Chamber of Secrets (which makes it connected to Slytherin) My another idea is that it's a ring which belongs to Salazar Slytherin and was broken when the last descendant of Slytherin died... I'm also wondering what powers (if any!) has this ring. The screensaver suggest that the ring is a 'cause' of what happens with the two hands. Maybe it is a source of the ancient magic, or dark magic?It might be helpful for Harry to become more powerful or be one of the most desirable things for Voldemort... I dont know... so many possibilities :D What do you think? Julia From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Jun 12 12:40:08 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 08:40:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's... Message-ID: <85.297ac873.2fdd8728@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130540 In a message dated 6/12/2005 3:35:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, quick_silver71 at yahoo.ca writes: I disagree. Sirius is probably one of the stonger Order members magcially speaking. Of the 5 that go to the DoM two, Tonks and Moody (both Aurors), are taken out by the DEs with ease (they fail to take a single DE with them). Sirius loses to Bellatrix but so does Kingsley...the only difference being that there was a veil behind Sirius. Sirius main problem is that he lacks a skill that the Order can regularly use not the he is a weak member. --------------------- Sherrie here: A lot depends upon your definition of your terms. Speaking strictly in terms of magical ability, you're probably right - but speaking in terms of his overall effectiveness as a member of the Order, Sirius was definitely the weakest link. And he knew it. The problem is that strong magic doesn't do much good if it can't be used. As to the DoM fight, that whole situation shows that not only is he the weakest link in usefulness to the Order, he is also Harry's Achilles heel, his area of greatest vulnerability. Given that Harry is the one person necessary to the Order's stated purpose of the defeat of Voldemort, anything that weakens HIM weakens the Order. That made Sirius not just the weakest link, but a liability to the Order's purpose. Sherrie "My best friend is the man who'll get me a book I ain't read." - A. Lincoln [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Sun Jun 12 13:05:11 2005 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:05:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the Strategist (Re: Has anyone thought that Dumbledore knows...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130541 > >>Michael (mggoulden): > [Dumbledore's] positively ludicrous decision to entrust an innocent man's fate to two 13 year-old wizards, and something is decidedly fishy.< Laying aside question of Black's perceived innocence (why the hell NOBODY protested when he was being thrown to Azkaban for life?) I always supposed that Harry and Hermione were chosen for the task because they were innocent and 13 (i.e. underage and not liable to ministry prosecution). An adult wizard caught with Buckbeak on a lash would have serious trouble with the Ministry, children risked only failure, not legal problems. > Betsy Hp: > Plus, Dumbledore has very little people he can trust at this point in > PoA. Lupin is off in the Forbidden Forest, baying at the moon, > Hagrid is off drinking somewhere, and Snape is at the very end of his > tether There were two other adult wizards who knew all about timeturner, were (unlike Hagrid) highly skilled proffesionals and could be trusted completely: Minerva McGonagall and himself, Albus Dumbledore. > Dumbledore himself can do nothing or he will be under > immediate suspicion. He wasn't, even after all that Harry and Hermione had done, and he was an accomplice. Who would notice that Headmaster had disappeared for a second and who would ask questions how long this second lasted for him? On the other hand, if he was seen freeing Buckbeak or Sirius... yes, I can quite understand why he sent kids. And, mark you, he aced fair. Even if somebody dragged Harry and Hermione in by their ears, screaming that something must be done about those two young *#%! who free criminals, DD could kindly ask him not to manhandle his students and promise heavy punishments for themischief-makers. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 12 13:09:28 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:09:28 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's... In-Reply-To: <85.297ac873.2fdd8728@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130542 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > As to the DoM fight, that whole situation shows that not only is he the > weakest link in usefulness to the Order, he is also Harry's Achilles heel, his > area of greatest vulnerability. Given that Harry is the one person necessary > to the Order's stated purpose of the defeat of Voldemort, anything that > weakens HIM weakens the Order. That made Sirius not just the weakest link, but a > liability to the Order's purpose. Following your logic, everybody who is close to Harry is, or can be a liability. So now Sirius is dead, the next liability to the Order's purpose, according to this theory is Ron, and after that Hermione, and after that probably Ginny, or Molly or Arthur or the Twins or Dubledore himself, and so on, and so on. Because if they are in danger Harry will rush in (hopefully not as foolhardy as the first time). Actually, if LV had been patient and waited for the holiday he could have used an image of either Ron or Hermione to lure Harry to the MoM just as easily. And then he would have been alone, could not have warned anybody and things would have ended very differently. Gerry From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 12 13:27:33 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:27:33 -0000 Subject: Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...) In-Reply-To: <20050611063402.16849.qmail@web60213.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130543 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen Nicholson > On balance, Sirius' death suits DD: He got Harry away from the 'danger' of being brought up by his nominated guardian by getting Hagrid to deliver him to Privet Drive and the Dursleys only to have him back on his hands after Peter Pettigrew returns to VM, and with increasing influence on Harry. Sirius vindicated and guardian of Harry is still very much a threat to DD's plans; Sirius loved and dead is a very important part of the process of turning Harry into a weapon for the Order against VM. Gerry There has been a lot of comment on your post, so I will not repeat others and just post my own unmentioned disagreements : ) First: Sirius was Harry's godfather, not his nominated guardian. So there was no danger at all that Sirius would have been able to raise baby Harry, as he was not a relative. Why would Sirius vindicated be a danger to DD's plans? Harry is not being turned into a weapon for the order against LV. Harry has quite a strong inner motivation in wanting to fight LV. The man killed his parents and tried to kill him. Not only as a baby but a few times later as well. And Harry knows he will try to kill him again. Sirius has nothing to do with it. The order's main purpose for the moment is keeping Harry long enough alive to give him a chance to defeat LV. Up til now he has been lucky, but his luck has to go sour only once and the order will have a dead Harry on its hands. Sirius death is actually bad for Harry. Again he lost someone. He now has anger, hate and grief to deal with. If he comes out all right, leaves the anger and the hate behind, he will be a stronger person for it. If he does not, he will be weaker. Now some Machiavellian like character may like the idea of focussing that anger and hate against LV and thus create a 'weapon' for the order, but as I pointed out, there is no need for that, and even if DD were this kind of person, this is an extremely dangerous strategy that can easily go wrong. Now Harry living with Sirius from his third year onward could have been a problem, because of the blood protection. But that could easily have been solved. Ofcourse DD would have had to explain this bit to Harry and Sirius, but it would have been easily possible to work out a compromise where Privit Drive would still be his home, and he would also have spent time with Sirius until he would have come of age. Gerry From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Sun Jun 12 13:29:14 2005 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:29:14 -0000 Subject: poor Grangers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130544 Don't you think that Mrs and Mr Granger are the most wronged characters in entire series? These kind people brought up their girl well, taught her to study, to be a decent person, to help those weaker that herself (remember how kind Hermione was torwards Neville and how she rose to the defence of unpopular girls?). And what did they get in return? They hardly see their darling, who shares her time between Hogwarts' and Weasley family, cuts short holidays with her devoted parents and experiments with her teeth against better advice of the two dentists who love her dearly? Can we really blame wizard-born kids for disliking Muggles, if exemplary Muggle-borns (Harry and Hermione) do their best to avoid their Muggle families? True, Colin Crevey seems to like his family better, but he's crazy as an otter anyway... Monika From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun Jun 12 13:51:06 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:51:06 -0000 Subject: Our very own pensieve Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130545 What a wonderful pensieve is this website! We can deposit our thoughts along with others and see patterns and threads more clearly. While Re-reading the books, as most of us are in preparation for Book 6, I was reminded of several similarities between characters that I hadn't thought much about before. Such as - Hermione and Myrtle: both are upset by hurtful remarks, both hide in a bathroom, and both face death as a result. What's the difference? Tom Riddle went into the bathroom to release the basilisk on a muggleborn - Harry entered the bathroom at great personal risk to save a muggleborn. Harry early on was choosing what was right over what was easy. I also am noticing (currently re-reading Book 5) that all the Houses are represented in the core group - Harry (Slytherin), Ron (Griffindor), Hermione (Ravenclaw) and Neville (Hufflepuff). And all the Houses are represented except Slytherin in the DA - will the "good Slytherin" be the first to join in Book 6? It is obvious that all Houses must work together to fight LV as the adults have in The Order. It is also interesting how JKR used Umbridge to gather information regarding the teachers. We now know when each of the teachers came to Hogwarts and a bit more about they handle themselves in a difficult situation. The most surprising to me is McGonagall - she tends to do what is easy over what is right - IMO. From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun Jun 12 13:58:22 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:58:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801c56f56$cd555780$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130546 Gerry First: Sirius was Harry's godfather, not his nominated guardian. So there was no danger at all that Sirius would have been able to raise baby Harry, as he was not a relative. Sherry now: I agree with most of your post, Gerry. however, and forgive me for not quoting, as all my books are packed away right now, But Sirius is both Godfather and guardian. Doesn't he, in POA, tell Harry that he is Harry's guardian and ask if Harry would like to come and live with him? often time, people will make whoever is the godparent the guardian as well. I know it was that way in my case, and I was always so glad my aunt and uncle never had to assume guardianship, which would have been a disaster in my life, for more than the obvious! Knowing what we do of the closeness between James and Sirius, I can't imagine him choosing anyone else to be Harry's legal guardian. That's one reason I've always been confused about why Sirius let Hagrid take baby Harry so easily. It's one of the things I hope will be explained someday in canon. Sherry check out my live journal at: www.livejournal.com/users/sherriola owner/moderator of LOTR discussion group councils at Rivendell From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Sun Jun 12 14:05:40 2005 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:05:40 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: Gerry wrote: > Actually, if LV had been patient and waited for the holiday he could > have used an image of either Ron or Hermione to lure Harry to the MoM > just as easily. And then he would have been alone, could not have > warned anybody and things would have ended very differently. Right! and it's not the only time when LV turns out to be an incompetent villain. Actually I don't think he's really dangerous. Just consider: - in PhS, LV and Quirell together proved to be about as competent as a bunch of first years' - in CoS young Riddle had brains enough to use a third party (Ginny) to do the killings, but it did not occur to him that "less talk, more action" attitude may serve better in winning the final fight - In GoF, LV made a stupid mistake of keeping Harry alive after he had got the blood he needed. What for? To show that he's stronger that a teenager? C'mon... - In Oop, why did he need Harry at all? He could have heard the Prophecy himself or "ask" other people who mihgt have heard it years ago - not Dumbledore, of course, but Trelawney or the barman or some other innocent bystander. monika From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 12 14:07:35 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:07:35 -0000 Subject: Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...) In-Reply-To: <001801c56f56$cd555780$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > I agree with most of your post, Gerry. however, and forgive me for not > quoting, as all my books are packed away right now, But Sirius is both > Godfather and guardian. Doesn't he, in POA, tell Harry that he is Harry's > guardian and ask if Harry would like to come and live with him? Gerry Yep, you're right. But that opens up more questions for me. Because Sirius lent Hagrid his bike to bring Harry to the Dursleys. So what happened here? Did Sirius not know that he was the guardian then? Seems unlikely. Did he agree with DD that Harry would be safest at the Dursley's especially at the beginning, because they did not know that LV was definitely gone? Did DD already suspect Sirius of being a traitor (as he was the secret keeper) and therefore wanted to keep Harry away from him? > That's one reason I've always been confused about why Sirius let > Hagrid take baby Harry so easily. It's one of the things I hope will be > explained someday in canon. > Gerry I hope so too. And now I get this vision of JKR having published book 7 and thinking it is time to sit back and start something new when a whole storm of owls hits her home with all kinds of questions from the people of HPfG on all kinds of nitpicking details like this one she somehow forgot to wrap up. And that will be book 8. Gerry From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 14:13:05 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 07:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Our very own pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050612141305.10148.qmail@web32708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130549 "B.G." wrote: It is also interesting how JKR used Umbridge to gather information regarding the teachers. We now know when each of the teachers came to Hogwarts and a bit more about they handle themselves in a difficult situation. The most surprising to me is McGonagall - she tends to do what is easy over what is right - IMO. Lynn: I'm not sure what you mean by this. I think it would have been much easier for the teachers to tell Umbridge off and leave. It was right and much harder for them to put up with Umbridge in order to be there for the kids as much as possible. Consider, if they had left, just who would Umbridge have brought in to take their place? When McGonagall wanted to help Dumbledore, he wouldn't let her because she was needed at Hogwarts. So again, she did what was right over what was easy. Perhaps, though, you meant something different. Lynn test'; "> --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 14:31:00 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:31:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] poor Grangers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130550 On 6/12/05, monika_zaboklicka wrote: > Don't you think that Mrs and Mr Granger are the most wronged characters > in entire series? Not even remotely. They're getting a bit of a raw deal, I'd agree, but they are her parents and they could say no to all this stuff. But aside from that, I'd say that Harry who has lost everything resembling a parent he's ever had, and the Diggorys who lost their son have been wronged far more. In addition, the Weasleys have had one become estranged, two sons quit school, a daughter kidnapped and almost killed, and a third son embarrass the family by being seen by muggles in a flying car. > Can we really blame wizard-born kids for disliking Muggles, if > exemplary Muggle-borns (Harry and Hermione) do their best to avoid > their Muggle families? True, Colin Crevey seems to like his family > better, but he's crazy as an otter anyway... Harry isn't muggle born. And I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that Hermione is doing her best to avoid her parents. It's basically just during Order of the Phoenix that she skips out on her parents, before the year starts and during the Christmas holidays. And, during the holidays one of her best friends has a parent who might be dying. -- Gregory Lynn From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun Jun 12 14:32:35 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:32:35 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130551 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quick_silver71" wrote: > horridporrid03 wrote: > > The reason I think Sirius was the weakest member of the Order > > was his own emotional instability and the fact that he > > was a wanted criminal. Sirius was of very little use to the > > Order because he wasn't able to leave the Headquarters. > > Everyone else in the Order seemed heavily involved in various > > diplomatic and reconnaissance type work that Sirius could not > > participate in. > > > I disagree. Sirius is probably one of the stonger Order members > magcially speaking. Of the 5 that go to the DoM two, Tonks and > Moody (both Aurors), are taken out by the DEs with ease (they fail > to take a single DE with them). Sirius loses to Bellatrix but so > does Kingsley...the only difference being that there was a veil > behind Sirius. Sirius main problem is that he lacks a skill that > the Order can regularly use not the he is a weak member. > > "quick_silver71" BG's two cents: Sirius was careless and enjoyed taking risks. Don't get me wrong, I like Sirius and he did love Harry very much but he was not a strong father figure for him. He didn't practice what he preached nor did he think of what was best for Harry. During one of the fireplace visits he even scolded Harry and acted childishly when he made the remark about Harry not being so much like his father afterall after Harry exhibited his cautious side. Sirius' death was due his own lack of good judgement. He taunted Beatrix that she "could do better than that" instead of focusing on taking her out when he had the chance. He paid little attention to where he was standing - the thrill of being in a life and death situation and his arrogance were his downfall. DD did not sacrifice Sirius for the cause although his death probably made all of The Order and Harry safer. From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun Jun 12 15:00:36 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:00:36 -0000 Subject: Our very own pensieve In-Reply-To: <20050612141305.10148.qmail@web32708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130552 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > "B.G." wrote: > > > It is also interesting how JKR used Umbridge to gather information > regarding the teachers. We now know when each of the teachers came > to Hogwarts and a bit more about they handle themselves in a > difficult situation. The most surprising to me is McGonagall - she > tends to do what is easy over what is right - IMO. > > > Lynn: > > I'm not sure what you mean by this. I think it would have been much easier for the teachers to tell Umbridge off and leave. It was right and much harder for them to put up with Umbridge in order to be there for the kids as much as possible. Consider, if they had left, just who would Umbridge have brought in to take their place? > > When McGonagall wanted to help Dumbledore, he wouldn't let her because she was needed at Hogwarts. So again, she did what was right over what was easy. > > Perhaps, though, you meant something different. > > Lynn > BG: My point about Umbridge's evaluation visits was that it was JKR's clever technique to give us information about when each of the teachers came to Hogwarts so we could use it for a reference. Harry's lifetime line is key here. Snape came before or right after Lily and James died, McGonagall was there long before LV started his terror and so on. And a bit more personality information on other teachers about whom we previously had little - Sprout and Flitwick for example. This all being because we have only Harry's POV. JKR uses the Umbridge visits and Harry's observations most effectively. About McGonagall - like I said, this is a great pensieve and reading others thoughts makes me re-examine mine. There may be a bit of movie corruption going on in my mind about this character. I keep seeing Maggie Smith's face as I read. And she definitely has some great expressions at key moments. I'll need to re-read certain passages again and stay off the movies until November. > > --------------------------------- > Discover Yahoo! > Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anurim at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 15:35:22 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 08:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...) In-Reply-To: <001801c56f56$cd555780$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <20050612153522.87770.qmail@web32611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130553 > Sherry now: > > I agree with most of your post, Gerry. however, and > forgive me for not > quoting, as all my books are packed away right now, > But Sirius is both > Godfather and guardian. Doesn't he, in POA, tell > Harry that he is Harry's > guardian and ask if Harry would like to come and > live with him? often time, > people will make whoever is the godparent the > guardian as well. I know it > was that way in my case, and I was always so glad my > aunt and uncle never > had to assume guardianship, which would have been a > disaster in my life, for > more than the obvious! Knowing what we do of the > closeness between James > and Sirius, I can't imagine him choosing anyone else > to be Harry's legal > guardian. That's one reason I've always been > confused about why Sirius let > Hagrid take baby Harry so easily. It's one of the > things I hope will be > explained someday in canon. The priority for Sirius was at the time to expose Peter as the traitor, otherwise he would have had to take all the blame, as he did in the end. This had to be his first movement not only pragmatically, but emotionally as well; he was aching for the deaths of James and Lily at least as badly as Harry aches now for his, and of course he screamed revenge. Actually, looking at how Harry reacts now might be a good way to understand how Sirius felt back then, guilt included. I am sure that Sirius didn't stop to think much about Harry at the time. He only started taking comfort in having a godson, a second James perhaps, while in jail. Before this, I think he was in shock and quite fatalistic as disposition. Just the way I see it. Mira __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Sun Jun 12 15:44:08 2005 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:44:08 -0000 Subject: poor Grangers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130554 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Gregory Lynn wrote: > On 6/12/05, monika_zaboklicka wrote: > > Don't you think that Mrs and Mr Granger are the most wronged characters > > in entire series? > > Not even remotely. They're getting a bit of a raw deal, I'd agree, > but they are her parents and they could say no to all this stuff. Interesting point. Could they? One wonders how much they actually know what's going on and what arguments had been used to persuade normal parents to send their child to a high school that officially does not even exist? > But > aside from that, I'd say that Harry who has lost everything resembling > a parent he's ever had, and the Diggorys who lost their son have been > wronged far more. In addition, the Weasleys have had one become > estranged, two sons quit school, a daughter kidnapped and almost > killed, and a third son embarrass the family by being seen by muggles > in a flying car. That's beside the point. Harry, Cedric - and, of course Neville - liked their parents or revered their memory. Cedric at a point felt embarassed by what his father was saying, and Neville was obviously afraid of his grandmother, but still they were spending their free time with their families. Weasleys are another matter - Arthur was breakig the Ministry rules himself, and Molly was not willing to earn a knut, yet she felt free to prohibit her children to earn their own money. They as well as invited most of their problems. The thing about Ginny is the only exception. > > Can we really blame wizard-born kids for disliking Muggles, if > > exemplary Muggle-borns (Harry and Hermione) do their best to avoid > > their Muggle families? > Harry isn't muggle born. OK, he's brought up by Muggles, but that's again beside the point. His only surviving family are Muggles, and he doesn't like them. The question was rised in CoS, and I doubt whether Harry's answer had been considered satisfying. > And I don't think there's any evidence to > suggest that Hermione is doing her best to avoid her parents. It's > basically just during Order of the Phoenix that she skips out on her > parents, before the year starts and during the Christmas holidays. > And, during the holidays one of her best friends has a parent who > might be dying. No. How may Christmas holidays Hermione spent with her parents? Why every time when Harry goes to the Weasleys for the second half of his holidays, he always and without failure finds out that Hermione was there before him? Hermione is seeing Mrs Weasley more often than her own mother and that's a fact. In OoP she's just provided with a better excuse. I'm not telling that Hermione is heartless and am not suggesting that her parents are terrible abductors behind the kind facade - all evidence suggests that the Grangers are kind people who love their girl well. Isn't it a little unfair that the brightness of wizarding world lured their only child away from them? From elanorpam at yahoo.com.br Sun Jun 12 16:11:01 2005 From: elanorpam at yahoo.com.br (Paula "Elanor Pam") Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:11:01 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...) References: Message-ID: <00a401c56f69$57865dc0$0601010a@harrypotter> No: HPFGUIDX 130555 From: "festuco" > > Sherry Gomes > > > > That's one reason I've always been confused about why Sirius let > > Hagrid take baby Harry so easily. It's one of the things I hope will be > > explained someday in canon. > > > Gerry > > I hope so too. Actually, I think there's a fair explanation that. Sirius had just noticed Pettigrew had betrayed them, that the Potters were dead and he had failed to protect them. He blamed himself for having given the idea of using Peter, and when he learned that Dumbledore had plans for Harry he decided the kid was safer in the care of the only one Voldy ever feared. He was blaming himself and his self steem was pretty low in that moment. All he could probably think about was how he just wouldn't have the power to protect Harry, how his best friend was dead and how useless he had been... and so he gave Harry and his own motorbike to Hagrid, because he was going to face the traitor and he wasn't expecting, or even intending to make it back alive. He was probably ready to throw his life away, so he put his most prized possessions in the hands of someone who could protect them and love them as he would. Not that I think leaving a motorbike and a baby in Hagrid's hands was sane, but Sirius was never known for having common sense anyway. Elanor Pam ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail, cada vez melhor: agora com 1GB de espao grtis! http://mail.yahoo.com.br From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun Jun 12 16:27:09 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:27:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...) In-Reply-To: <00a401c56f69$57865dc0$0601010a@harrypotter> Message-ID: <003401c56f6b$957abd40$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130556 He was blaming himself and his self steem was pretty low in that moment. All he could probably think about was how he just wouldn't have the power to protect Harry, how his best friend was dead and how useless he had been... and so he gave Harry and his own motorbike to Hagrid, because he was going to face the traitor and he wasn't expecting, or even intending to make it back alive. He was probably ready to throw his life away, so he put his most prized possessions in the hands of someone who could protect them and love them as he would. Not that I think leaving a motorbike and a baby in Hagrid's hands was sane, but Sirius was never known for having common sense anyway. Elanor Pam Sherry again: I think you are probably dead on about Sirius' mindset at that time. The rage and guilt he must have been feeling would have been overwhelming. However, I actually think there was noone better to give Harry to than Hagrid. We've seen how Hagrid is so tender and loving with the fiercest of creatures. I bet he was incredibly tender with Baby Harry! i can absolutely picture him cooing over the baby, comforting him in his instinctive and gentle way. He might be kind of scattered about some things and not good at keeping secrets, but he'd be gentle and careful with a baby, I think. Sherry From johnk at gwu.edu Sun Jun 12 13:42:27 2005 From: johnk at gwu.edu (John Kearns) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:42:27 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130557 > > Kaylee Tonks-Lupin: > > > > I wouldn't think so. Sorry for not having the canon to prove it > > (help would be much appreciated) but I believe the MM would only > > show places the Marauders had visited. > > > > Finwitch: > > I think it was required to enter a place to put it onto the > map. They may have figured out the basilisk etc. but NOT enter. > (None of them is/was a parselmouth, after all) > > Aside from the Chamber, there's also the Room of Requirement that > doesn't appear on the map -- as the Marauders never found it. When Kaylee asked for canon evidence, the first thing that popped into my mind was Hagrid's hut. Remember in PoA, Lupin describes how he was watching the Map and saw the trio enter Hagrid's hut, and then when they left, they were "accompanied by someone else (Wormtail)." The logical assumption is that the interior of Hagrid's hut is a 'dead zone' where the map doesn't work, or Lupin would have seen Pettigrew inside. This also would explain why Wormtail was hiding in the hut in the first place. He disappeared well after Harry learned who he was, and he knew he was in danger of being discovered on the map - particularly since, as Ron's pet, he would frequently have been very near Harry. So he sought out a hiding place where he knew the map wouldn't show him. He helped write it, after all. Presumably the map doesn't show the inside of the hut because the Marauders never went there themselves. Which makes sense - how many students have actually been in there, especially in the days before they had to hide from Blast-Ended Skrewts? It's also interesting that you bring up the Room of Requirement - it made me think, what about all those rooms that move around or change places? Or the staircases, for that matter. Would they change on the map as well? Hmm. John From johnk at gwu.edu Sun Jun 12 13:58:15 2005 From: johnk at gwu.edu (John Kearns) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:58:15 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130558 > > wherr009: > > << Who performed the Fidelis (sp?) charm to hide the potters? > > Was it James or Lily or someone else? >> > > Catlady: > I think it must have been James or Lily or Sirius or Peter, because > their big idea was that everyone would think Sirius was the Secret > Keeper but really Peter was the Secret Keeper. > > (Of course I am jumping to the assumption that the person who > casts the spell must know who the Secret Keeper is, probably must > cast it on him in person.) Catlady, I agree that it must have been one of the four. Following your assumption about the caster knowing who the secret keeper is, anyone else casting the charm would have been able to tell Dumbledore after James and Lily were killed that the secret keeper had been changed. If our assumption is incorrect and the caster does not need to know the secret keeper's identity, of course the caster of the spell could have been anybody (probably Dumbledore). Here's what makes me curious: Dumbledore knew that somebody close to James and Lily was passing information. So why not make James or Lily the secret keeper? Being the secret keeper doesn't prevent you from entering the building; after all, we know Dumbledore enters Grimmauld Place. Wouldn't that be the safest bet of all? Or is Godric's Hollow somehow James and Lily's secret in a way that Grimmauld Place is not Dumbledore's? I am making one other assumption, I suppose: that Dumbledore does in fact enter Grimmauld. We never actually see him there, so perhaps when he refers to going there he's actually on the front porch or something. But this isn't really logical; why on earth shouldn't the secret keeper be allowed to enter? Any ideas? John. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Jun 12 16:41:06 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:41:06 -0000 Subject: FILK: To Do Her Dark Detention Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130559 To Do Her Dark Detention (OOP, Chap. 15) To the tune of I Am So Proud from Gilbert & Sullivan's The Mikado http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/mikado/webopera/song10.html THE SCENE: The Great Hall. McGONAGALL & ANGELINA JOHNSON react with anger when they learn that HARRY has earned himself a second week of detention with Delores Umbridge. McGONAGALL You both got loud But I'm allowed To quiet the scene And intervene For my advice Did not suffice To shut your trap When Dolores talks crap. I'll take away points To make my point You're out of joint You disappoint You disappoint ANGELINA: Our Quidditch team Won't rank supreme We will fall through All thanks to you, All thanks to you; If you'd the wit To simply sit Through class, you'd cruise We would not lose Now this young witch In woe is rich We'll Seek no Snitch Thanks to your glitch HARRY: I heard her say That Quirrell's OK The criminal who Helped You-Know-Who I did not fail To mock her tale And so detained, detained With too much pain. But I defy Old Fudge's ally I tell no lie Is ever my cry The three repeat their verses, all singing simultaneously (thus preventing the would-be eavesdroppers from Ravenclaw from listening in) MCGONAGALL Your plight Tonight is that you must write Just make this leap: Your temper keep Make not a peep Against that creep Rewards you'll reap You'll get more sleep ANGELINA: Your plight Tonight is that you must write I'm sure you see That your duty Is be truly For the GQT That once flew free With rare beauty HARRY My plight Tonight, although I write, Let her begin To carve my skin Despite her sin To her chagrin I'll not give in She will never win! MCGONAGALL (simultaneously with the other two singers) You'll get more sleep, etc. ANGELINA: (simultaneously with the other two singers) With rare beauty, etc. HARRY (simultaneously with the other two singers) I'll not give in She will never win, etc. HARRY, McGONAGALL & ANGELINA To do her dark detention is a drear dread drill As I/you hear her hemful hacking like a sharp shriek shrill I/You scribble every sentence with her cold cruel quill That bids my/your blood be battered to this fiend fulfill! To do her dark detention is a drear dread drill And hear her hemful hacking like a sharp shriek shrill I/You scribble every sentence with her cold cruel quill That bids my/your blood be battered to this fiend fulfill! A drear dread drill! A sharp shriek shrill! A cold cruel quill! A fiend fulfill! To do a dark detention As I/you hear her hemful hacking And to scribble every sentence That bids my/your blood be battered to this fiend fulfill! - CMC (whose rhyming and alliterating muscles are now quite fatigued) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated 6/12/05 with 100 new filks!) From eileen_nicholson at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 09:02:35 2005 From: eileen_nicholson at yahoo.com (Eileen Nicholson) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Message-ID: <20050612090235.54475.qmail@web60213.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130560 >>Alla: >Could you please clarify something for me? Are you saying that Dumbledore KNEW in advance ( as in foreseeing the future or something like that) that Sirius would die and did not do anything to avoid him or you are simply saying that NOW when Dumbledore evaluates the situation after the fact, Sirius' death suits him? Because if it is the first one, I want to raise my very old problem with such argument - I think this would make Dumbledore to be one of the most idiotic generals in the history of literature. :-) Consider very simple scenario - Harry LEARNS that Dumbledore somehow played a direct part in Sirius' death. Don't you think that Harry would refuse to fight for Dumbledore cause if he learns that? Now, if you are arguing the second scenario , well it very well could be that Dumbledore decides that Sirius' death suits him, but I am still not sure how, since even without Dumbledore's direct involvement Harry is pretty mad him at the end of OOP and I am thinking that Dumbledore would prefer the relationship between them to be diffrent than it is now ( judging by the covers I hope it would be better in HBP :-)) >> Eileen: I don't think Dumbledore planned Sirius' death, although I have concerns that he appeared to be standing by and doing nothing while Sirius and Bella continued their fight at the MoM - perhaps there was no time to do anything (What, with all those time turners around the place? Cool it, Eileen, the chip on your shoulder is showing :-)) I think he believes that Sirius, having gone through the veil 'alive', is going to be of use to Harry in his dealings with Voldemort in some specific way that we don't have any information about, and I think that he is also aware that it makes death that much more acceptable to Harry, and has given him a directly experienced example of someone giving up their life for someone else. So, on the whole, he sees it as a positive. I'm expecting that the information Harry now has is going to make him stop and think, and we should see some changes in his relationships going forwards. I think his blaming Snape was just an automatic reflex - he's so used to blaming Snape, it allows him to let off a bit of steam. But I expect he will start to have a better understanding of what is going on around him, enabling him to make better decisions and take more responsibility. So his relationship with Dumbledore will start growing again after the hiatus that was OoP, but this time evolving towards that of two equals. That has to be better, doesn't it? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From valy1x2 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 12 16:10:46 2005 From: valy1x2 at hotmail.com (Valy) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:10:46 +0200 Subject: Who taught Voldemort? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130561 This is a little question that suddenly popped up in my brain: Who taugh Voldemort the AK and Cruciatus Curse when he graduated out from Hogwarts? We know he is a powerful wizard, have created incredible curses and hexes, but well... I think the AK curse is much older than Voldie himself. And I dont think they taught unforgivable curses at Hogwarts, unless the headmaster and some teachers were into Dark Arts... (Phineas Nigellus anyone?) Or his friends at Hogwarts, into the Dark Arts, taught him between classes (despite he was incredibly talented to begin to call himself as "Lord Voldemort"), since he was locked into a muggle orphanage while holydays until he became adult? Valy. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 18:35:32 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:35:32 -0000 Subject: More Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > ...edited... > > Rose Red wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130172 : > > << Pettigrew was the only person who could let anybody know where > the Potters were. Hagrid delivered baby Harry to his Aunt and Uncle. > Ummmm....is it just me or there is a huge non-sequitor here? Somehow > the news got out, and only Pettigrew could let people know there was > even news to tell. >> > Catlady: > As we saw in OoP, the Secret Keeper can 'tell' the Secret via > written note. I figure that Peter wrote such a note to Sirius, and > ... to Dumbledore .... He could have written another note to Hagrid > wherr009 wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130249 : > > << Who performed the Fidelis (sp?) charm to hide the potters? Was it > James or Lily or someone else? >> > Cataldy: > I think it must have been James or Lily or Sirius or Peter, ...; it > apparently never occured to Sirius that he *did* know that Peter was > the Secret Keeper and where Peter was hiding, so he *could* have > been made to reveal that to the bad guys, ... > > ... (Of course I am jumping to the assumption that the person who > casts the spell must know who the Secret Keeper is, probably must > cast it on him in person.) > > Further, I assume that Peter didn't cast the spell because he was > the magically weakest of the four. If the Fidelius Charm requires > to be cast by a person who is neither the Secret Keeper nor the > Secret's owner, then it would have been Sirius. > bboyminn: I think there are far too many detail missing from our knowledge of how the Fidelius Charm works. For example, only the secret keeper can reveal the secret. But exactly what is the 'secret'. Let's use 12 Grimmauld Place as an example. Is the postal address of '12 Grimmauld Place' the secret, or is it the building itself. In otherwords, is it the revealing of the location of the building or the revealing of the building itself that is reveal as the 'secret'. Still slightly foggy I'm sure. Harry knows the secret, he knows that the /protected/ address of the Phoenix Headquarters is '#12 Grimmauld Place; London, England'. Does the Fidelius Charm magically prevent him from speaking those words in any circumstance where he could be overheard? If he were walking down the hallway about to speak those words and some one was listening in to his conversation, would he magically forget the address, would he simply be struck mute - unable to utter those secret words, or what? As an alternative, would he be able to speak those words thereby revealing the address, but the magic around 12 Grimmauld Place would not allow the PLACE to be reveal because the address had not been given by the Secret Keeper. Let's say for example that Neville overheard Harry speak those words. Then later in an emergency Neville rushes to #11 Grimmauld Place (yes Eleven). He sees #11, he sees #13, but to his eye and to every means of preception he has, magical or normal, he can't find #12. As far as he is able to determine, #12 simply doesn't exist. So, in a sense, he has the secret, but he doesn't have THE SECRET. So, now I think you probably see my point. Harry has revealed the address to Neville, but Harry has not revealed the secret. Neville can know where it is, but knowing where it is doesn't not allow him to find the place because the place continues to be hidden by the charm because it was not the Secret Keeper who reveal the information. I'm not say that this is how it does work, just pointing out that given how little we know, this is how it might work. To further compound the confusion, we are assuming that the 'secret' is the location, that it is, the place, the building itself that is the secret. But nothing has be specified indicating that that's how the harm has to work. Why couldn't Lily and James themselves be the secert rather than their house in Godrics Hollow? To protect Lily and James it would still have to be their /location/ that was secret, but if the Charm hid them rather than the house, then the protection would follow them were ever they went. It's the difference between making 'the location of Jame and Lily' a secret, and making the house at #10 Spinners End, Godrics Hollow, Powys County, Wales the secret. Remember, Prof. Flitwick said Voldemort could have been looking in the window, and he still wouldn't have been able to find Lily and James. While we can't really lend much weight to that statement, it does imply that a circumstance where you can find the house, but not the people is possible. Further, if the house itself is the secret, then James could have cast the Fidelius Charm, because it's not himself that he is enchanting, but the house, and only as a secondary efffect is he protected by being in that house. That means that anyone, not just James and Lily, would also be protected by being in the house. I'm not even saying that this is right. I'm just trying to point out that many of us are operating under easy assumptions that aren't really supported by direct knowledge. We can reasonably assume that critical people knew where Lily and James were. Someone had to bring the groceries, someone had to bring them news. Can you apparate into and out of a Fidelius protected house. We didn't see anyone do that at Grimmauld Place. Entrance by Apparation would certainly solve some logistical problems, but would access be limited to people who had officially be given the secret? You would certainly /want/ it to be limited, but we don't know that it is. Again, my real point is nothing more than trying to encourage us to be careful about unfounded assumptions that are commonly being made about the nature of the Fidelius Charm and how it works. In the scenario I outline above, it's possible to give out the address without revealing the secret. -Minor Points- -Logically, some people had to know where James and Lily were hiding and have access to that place. Again, simple things like groceries have to be dealt with. -We don't know how the Fidelius Charm can be broken. Was the house in Godrics Hollow revealed, meaning the secret broken, when the house was destroyed? Was it literally because the house was destroyed or was the revealing of the secret a side effect of the sudden burst of general but powerful magic when Voldemort's spell rebounded? Or is the answer as simple as Dumbledore and Hagrid knowing the secret. Too many assumptions; too little information. steve/bboyminn From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Sun Jun 12 18:43:44 2005 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:43:44 -0000 Subject: Who taught Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Valy" wrote: > Who taugh Voldemort the AK and Cruciatus Curse when he graduated out from > Hogwarts? At one point it was mentioned that young Riddle travelled abroad after graduating Hogwarts, I always assumed he learnt his curses then. > We know he is a powerful wizard, have created incredible curses and hexes, > but well... I think the AK curse is much older than Voldie himself. I think so too, mainly because Avada Kevadra seems to be one of the few spells that are in no way related to Latin. I guess that Voldemort learnt it somewhere outside Europe. > since he was locked into a muggle orphanage while holydays > until he became adult? Come to think of it, where there any fatal "accidents" in the orphanage while Riddle was still there? He was underage, his activities would have been monitored, but I do wonder. Monika From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Sun Jun 12 19:24:12 2005 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:24:12 -0000 Subject: unforgivable curses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130564 OK, my question is: why are unforgivable curses unforgivable? General subquestion: why they are illegal only when used against other humans? What about goblins, centaurs, Veela etc? Don't they have any legal protection? 1. Cruciatus - that's the easiest one; probably invented for torture in the first place. I can imagine lawful use of that one - in the situations when Muggle doctors would have used electroshocks, but I'm sure healers have other methods of shocking their patients. 2. Imperius - that's a spell that might be very easily misused, but in my opinion is not evil itself. It can be used to stop an attempted suicide, calm down panicking people etc. Quite a number of lifeguards would have given their whistles to be able to say "Imperio! Stop beating around the water and trying to kill John, he wants to help you. Swim to the shore. OK, Finite incantem." Furthemore, if wizards are so much against influencing the minds of people, why do they use Obliviate on regular basis? 3. Avada Kevadra - the only one that does not seem to be rooted in Latin, therefore I suppose it was not invented in Europe. But that's beside the point. AK always seemed to me to be an uncomfortable curse. It's too long: "Avada Ke..." "Crucio!" "Ke...aaargh!!!" Six syllables - that's too much for an easy use in a battle. My pet theory is that it was, in fact, a curse for executioners, who weren't afraid that their victim might curse them back before they finish, but would want to make sure that the people they cursed remained dead. And one more question: can you come back as a ghost if you were killed by AK? From eileennicholson at aol.com Sun Jun 12 15:09:48 2005 From: eileennicholson at aol.com (eileennicholson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:09:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't lik... Message-ID: <64.5703a45b.2fddaa3c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130565 Gerry _vuurdame at _ writes: >Gerry: >There has been a lot of comment on your post, so I will not >repeat others and just post my own unmentioned disagreements : ) > >First: Sirius was Harry's godfather, not his nominated guardian. >So there was no danger at all that Sirius would have been able to >raise baby Harry, as he was not a relative. < Eileen: 'Well ... your parents appointed me your guardian,' said Sirius stiffly. 'If anything happened to them ...' PoA UK paperback p.277. Hagrid had the task of taking Harry to Privet Drive from Godric's Hollow, and had to persuade Sirius to let him do so. PoA P.154. >Why would Sirius vindicated be a danger to DD's plans? Harry is >not being turned into a weapon for the order against LV. Harry >has quite a strong inner motivation in wanting to fight LV. The >man killed his parents and tried to kill him. Not only as a baby >but a few times later as well. And Harry knows he will try to >kill him again. Sirius has nothing to do with it. < Eileen: Given the prophecy and Voldemort's reaction to it, Harry would always be motivated to fight LV but, living with Sirius, he may not have lived long enough to do it, and his motivation might not be as pure - Dumbledore wants to defeat LV, but he also wants to change the wizarding culture to ensure that there's no room for a successor to LV. By OoP, the risk to Harry is less, but still sufficient for the order to think it worthwhile for the Weasleys as well as Lupin to stay in Grimmauld Place over the summer, and Molly and Lupin seem to provide a lot of advice to both Harry and Sirius... >The order's main purpose for the moment is keeping Harry long >enough alive to give him a chance to defeat LV. Up till now he >has been lucky, but his luck has to go sour only once and the >order will have a dead Harry on its hands. Sirius' death is >actually bad for Harry. Again he lost someone. He now has anger, >hate and grief to deal with. If he comes out all right, leaves >the anger and the hate behind, he will be a stronger person for >it. If he does not, he will be weaker. Now some Machiavellian >like character may like the idea of focussing that anger and >hate against LV and thus create a 'weapon' for the order, but >as I pointed out, there is no need for that, and even if DD were >this kind of person, this is an extremely dangerous strategy that >can easily go wrong. Eileen: I think the prophecy was a weapon for the Order from the moment when LV thought there might be some risk to him in it, and LV himself chose Harry as the weapon when he attacked him in Godrics Hollow and was defeated. Dumbledore has simply done his best to keep LV thinking that way since then. ;-) Until now, Harry has been lucky, and there have been some good arguments in previous posts to suggest that his luck is partly due to his magical power. He has also had the (gradually being withdrawn over time, I think) protection of Dumbledore and the Order members. But LV is once again out in the open and the threat to Harry is much greater - he needs to grow up very quickly to deal with it, and losing Sirius and hearing the prophecy will cause him to do just that. Sirius' death has already helped him defeat LV in the MoM atrium, when his emotion ended Harry's possession by LV, and I think JKR has some further idea of Sirius helping Harry from beyond the veil that we don't know about yet. It seems to me Dumbledore is both a great strategist and an opportunist, and combines the two very effectively. Incidentally, I have been wondering why Dumbledore's eyes twinkle. It was suggested that it was due to occlumency, but both Snape and Lupin appear to be skilled in occlumens but without the twinkle.....any ideas? Eileen I'm sending this post from AOL, I hope it doesn't clash with Yahoomort! From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 12 20:16:57 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:16:57 -0000 Subject: Fidelius Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130566 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John Kearns" wrote: > Here's what makes me curious: Dumbledore knew that somebody close > to James and Lily was passing information. So why not make James > or Lily the secret keeper? > > Any ideas? Very interesting. I've had a though about this and it is that the secret is James' and Lily's. They need someone to keep their secret for them: the secret keeper. Therefore the subject/s of the secret cannot be their own secret keeper there needs to be a second or third person. I can apply this to the secret keeper of the Order by saying that Dumbledore is not The Order, he is a member, or even the leader of, The Order but he is not The Order therefore he is able to be its (The Order's) secret keeper. This made sense in my head, but I'm not sure that I've managed to articulate it properly! Karen From missbluepie at yahoo.com.au Sun Jun 12 15:16:13 2005 From: missbluepie at yahoo.com.au (missbluepie) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:16:13 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130567 Bear with me folks, this is my first post. >Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Nine Weasleys. It's greedy to have the family survive intact after Voldemort's first reign of terror, therefore I'm giving Percy the kiss of death. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) My money is on Seamus. It seems illogical to keep him hovering in the foreground for so long with no apparent purpose. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Why, it's her scandalous tryst with Snape while at Hogwarts, of course. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape's day will finally come as he is appointed DADA teacher. This will provide a platform for himself and Harry to perform as equals for both have similar talent in the area. This may provide an outlet for them to expel their mutual disdain through a shared focus on the task at hand, while garnering an appreciation for each other, for both their lives depend on defeating Voldemort. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? After Harry finally recognises Ron's feelings about Hermione, Harry will realise his own concerning her, thus creating animosity between Ron and himself. I don't think Harry will have a relationship with anyone more than he will begin to recognise another level of what it means to care for another romantically. But the seeds will be planted for Harry and Hermione. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Kingsley Shaklebolt > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? I don't think it's a pensieve -too big- rather the mysterious weapon in MoM. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, he shall. Dumbledore will teach potions due to its importance. Harry will learn some of the uses of dragons blood which shall be vital in defeating Voldemort. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All but Astronomy and potions > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* > come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will > receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in > his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. I'm not a fan of shipping but there has to be a reason plotwise why so much focus is centred on the relationships. Following on from answer five above, I think Hermione will gravitate toward Harry leaving Ron seething and opening the door for Ron to go 'bad'. 2. Aberforth will be the old lion guy and will play a much larger role in the HBP. 3. Petunia Dursley somehow inadvertently contributed to Lily's death, therefore out of guilt took Harry in as a baby. 4. Sirius' mirror will prove essential to the resolution of HBP. 5. Neville will drastically improve in his abilities and show himself to be one of Harry's staunchest allies. As Ron turns nasty, Neville will begin to fill the role as Harry's closest male friends. "missbluepie" From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jun 12 20:31:26 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:31:26 -0000 Subject: unforgivable curses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "monika_zaboklicka" wrote: > OK, my question is: why are unforgivable curses unforgivable? > General subquestion: why they are illegal only when used against > other humans? What about goblins, centaurs, Veela etc? Don't they > have any legal protection? Geoff: May I direct your attention to a fairly lengthy thread on this topic which was running last year? The title is "The Unforgiveable Curses" and the thread starts at message 94933. From quick_silver71 at yahoo.ca Sun Jun 12 17:41:09 2005 From: quick_silver71 at yahoo.ca (quick_silver71) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:41:09 -0000 Subject: Who taught Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130569 Valy wrote: > Who taugh Voldemort the AK and Cruciatus Curse when he graduated > out from Hogwarts? > > I think the AK curse is much older than Voldie himself. And I > don't think they taught unforgivable curses at Hogwarts, unless > the headmaster and some teachers were into Dark Arts... Or his > friends at Hogwarts, into the Dark Arts, taught him between > classes (despite he was incredibly talented to begin to call > himself as "Lord Voldemort"), since he was locked into a muggle > orphanage while holidays until he became adult? We know that in the restricted section of the library they keep books of advanced Dark Arts that are only used by students in advanced Defense against the Dark Arts. And Fake Moody states the Unforgivable are discussed/taught, at least their effect and probably theory, in the 6th year. If a student was good at experimenting they could probably master the Unforgivable quite easily...Harry has no experience but he manages to shut Bella up pretty quick. Imagine if he had practiced on spiders for a month before hand. And then there is Knockturn Alley which is devoted to the Dark Arts and clearly open to the wizarding public since it is the Weasley parents and not the law that keeps the Twins and Ron out. There are probably tons of ways for old Voldemort to get his hand on material...he is supposed to be the most brilliant student to ever go to Hogwarts (and both Hermione and Harry know spells well above there grade level). "quick_silver71" From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 20:40:39 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050612204039.11798.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130570 > Eileen: > > > On balance, Sirius' death suits DD: He got Harry away from > the 'danger' of being brought up by his nominated guardian by > getting Hagrid to deliver him to Privet Drive and the Dursleys only > to have him back on his hands after Peter Pettigrew returns to VM, > and with increasing influence on Harry. Sirius vindicated and > guardian of Harry is still very much a threat to DD's plans; Sirius > loved and dead is a very important part of the process of turning > Harry into a weapon for the Order against VM. > > Alla: > > I am honestly confused as to how Sirius' death suits Dumbledore Well, for one thing, it would mean that Dumbledore wouldn't have to worry about Harry turning himself into James-the-sequel in order to give Sirius back the best years of his life, namely the Hogwarts years. The number of times in both GoF and OOTP when Harry swallowed his fears or his real feelings in some way so that Sirius wouldn't do something Harry considered rash indicates to me that Harry was stifling his own personality out of deference to his godfather. Had Harry continued to develop a relationship with Sirius and had they become closer, then I think there was a real danger of that happening and Dumbledore knew it. A dead Sirius can be safely praised and ignored; the live one was always in danger of coming up with yet another brilliant plan like the one that cost James and Lily their lives. That kind of initiative Dumbledore does NOT need this time around. Magda __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html From mikeyrph at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 19:51:18 2005 From: mikeyrph at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:51:18 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130571 > > Betsy Hp: > > The reason I think Sirius was the weakest member of > > the Order was his own emotional instability and the fact that > > he was a wanted criminal. Sirius was of very little use to > > the Order because he wasn't able to leave the Headquarters. > > Everyone else in the Order seemed heavily involved in various > > diplomatic and reconnaissance type work that Sirius could > > not participate in. It's also unfortunate that his animagus > > form had been compromised. > > Finwitch: > Well, yes - Sirius was emotionally unstable. I believe he was > fighting for his sanity and claustrophobia. His love for Harry > is the one thing that helps him. Obsession got him out of > Azkaban. I find this discussion of Sirius to be especially troubling in light of real-world events. Any war has victims. Many do not survive. Few survive unscathed. When a war is just sacrifices must be made and often the best of us must sacrifice the most. No character reflects this truth more than Sirius Black, who rejected the comfort and advantages his background would've permitted, defied Voldemort, and, as a result endured 13 years of the worst torture imaginable. Do we now judge such a man on the basis of his future worth to a cause for which he has already given his utmost? Sirius is/was a HEROIC character in the broadest sense. The circumstances surrounding the last year of his life do not change this in the least! Who among us could hope to say the same of our lives? "Mike" From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon Jun 13 01:12:05 2005 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 01:12:05 -0000 Subject: poor Grangers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "monika_zaboklicka" wrote: > > d> > > > No. How may Christmas holidays Hermione spent with her parents? Why > every time when Harry goes to the Weasleys for the second half of his > holidays, he always and without failure finds out that Hermione was > there before him? Hermione is seeing Mrs Weasley more often than her > own mother and that's a fact. In OoP she's just provided with a > better excuse. > > I'm not telling that Hermione is heartless and am not suggesting that > her parents are terrible abductors behind the kind facade - all > evidence suggests that the Grangers are kind people who love their > girl well. Isn't it a little unfair that the brightness of wizarding > world lured their only child away from them? Sue here: Chuckle! Well, they did learn about toothflossing stringmints, anyway. It's strange, really, but everybody except certain scary kids (at the school Harry was supposed to attend before Hogwarts turned up) seems to go to boarding school in the HP universe, so they wouldn't see much of her anyway. She does seem to spend some time at home, from which she sends Harry healthy snacks, and she went to France with her parents during one set of holidays and skiing over Christmas another time (in PS). The Grangers seem to be a pleasant, peaceful couple. I imagine them, from the few scenes in which they appear or are mentioned, as slightly bemused by all that magic, but quite proud of their accomplished daughter. I'm not sure how they'd feel, mind, if they were aware of all the danger she was getting into in the wizarding world, and I wonder what they'd do if they found out what happened to her in the MoM goings-on? From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon Jun 13 01:24:26 2005 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 01:24:26 -0000 Subject: Who taught Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quick_silver71" wrote: > Valy wrote: > > Who taugh Voldemort the AK and Cruciatus Curse when he graduated > > out from Hogwarts? > > > > I think the AK curse is much older than Voldie himself. And I > > don't think they taught unforgivable curses at Hogwarts, unless > > the headmaster and some teachers were into Dark Arts... Or his > > friends at Hogwarts, into the Dark Arts, taught him between > > classes (despite he was incredibly talented to begin to call > > himself as "Lord Voldemort"), since he was locked into a muggle > > orphanage while holidays until he became adult? > > > We know that in the restricted section of the library they keep > books of advanced Dark Arts that are only used by students in > advanced Defense against the Dark Arts. And Fake Moody states the > Unforgivable are discussed/taught, at least their effect and > probably theory, in the 6th year. If a student was good at > experimenting they could probably master the Unforgivable quite > easily...Harry has no experience but he manages to shut Bella up > pretty quick. Imagine if he had practiced on spiders for a month > before hand. > > And then there is Knockturn Alley which is devoted to the Dark Arts > and clearly open to the wizarding public since it is the Weasley > parents and not the law that keeps the Twins and Ron out. > > There are probably tons of ways for old Voldemort to get his hand on > material...he is supposed to be the most brilliant student to ever > go to Hogwarts (and both Hermione and Harry know spells well above > there grade level). > > "quick_silver71" Sue: All this and also, don't forget that Riddle was a Slytherin and there would have been kids who, like the young Snape, already knew curses before they arrived. I mean, if he did, why not some before his time? I bet there was a Malfoy at Hogwarts (Lucius's Dad?) and we know that they collect Dark Arts goodies, and the dreadful Black family (before they produced that white sheep Sirius). He could easily have learned curses from his fellow Slytherins, as well as from the restricted books, which he might have been allowed to look at because he was such a nice boy, so good at his work, and good at sucking up to the librarian. (I'm a school librarian myself and I know how I love it when a student enjoys reading). "I know I'm only in fifth year, Madam X, but I really want to be an auror and I need to have a look at some of those books to get into sixth year DADA..." From gelite67 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 02:16:58 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:16:58 -0000 Subject: Goderic's Hollow In-Reply-To: <42AB732A.8080005@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > ***SPOILER SPACE*** > > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >. > >Friday, June 10, 2005, 2:53:25 PM, Mira wrote: > > > >M> Come to think of it, it is more than obvious: the > >M> cover describes an underground bay which is... The > >M> Godric Hollow! Hollow, because it is cave-like. > > > > > Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > > >If you're right, then I think Jo has engaged in a very clever bit of > >punstering (is that a word?) -- By the numerous references of the > >Potters living in Goderic's "Hollow", she has put into our minds the > >kind of hollow that is a cozy rural town or hamlet situated in a > >valley, e.g. "Sleepy Hollow". > > > > Heather now: > > Except for the fact that JKR has said outright that Godric's Hollow is a > village. > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=86 > > So unless she's lying in her own FAQ, she's not using that sort of wordplay. > > Besides which again, where would Lily and James' house have been? Voldy > went up to the 'front door', not the 'mouth of the cave'. Also, JKR > apparently had direct input into the film scene of GH, and it looked > like a pretty straight-forward normal house in normal (ie, not cave) > surroundings. > > Cute idea, but it doesn't stand up to canon. > > I just think it's a hitherto-undiscovered part of the Chamber of > Secrets. :) > > heather the buzzard Angie here: If I remember correctly, first years are taken by boat via through an underground cave -- wonder where else it goes? From gelite67 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 02:21:42 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:21:42 -0000 Subject: Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: <42ABA678.9010808@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > >m > >o > >r > >e > > > > > >S > >P > >O > >I > >L > >E > >R > > > > > >S > >P > >A > >C > >E > > > > > >Julie says: > >Oddly, my other first impression was that the two hands were > >of a woman and a man. I didn't immediately think the larger > >hand and wrist belonged to someone older, just someone male. > >And for some reason, I thought of James and Lily. > > > Oh yeah, that reminded me. I did have a thought that this was > representative of a wizard's wedding ceremony... a symbolic band > of fire uniting the two lives. My SO's thought was of perhaps > Ron and Hermione... hey, they're 16 now, they probably could with permission... it could be anyone, but a young marriage in the face > of danger might be interesting. > > I hadn't thought of it being James and Lily, though. I like that idea, considering we're likely to get more backstory on them this time around. Then, perhaps the ring is a wizard wedding band, and it's broken for some symbolic reason... Lily's secret? Petunia's secret? The mystery around where James was during GH? The ring > is featured prominently on the screensaver pic with the clasped hands, they have GOT to be related. > > >Julie: > >The smaller hand/wrist could certainly be Harry's (as teenage > >boys still haven't fully developed their musculature), or it > >could be a woman's hand/wrist. > > > I agree that it *could* be a woman's hand, but it doesn't really strike me as such. It has an underdeveloped-ness that makes me > 99% sure that it's a young person (male or female). > > heather the buzzard Angie here: Is it just me, or does one hand/arm (presumably the older one)look darker than the other? My kooky theory is that the hands belong to Harry and the Half-Blood Prince and it is a grip of solidarity, b/c they are joining forces. From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 02:42:41 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:42:41 -0000 Subject: poor Grangers - they will need protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130578 sbursztynski The Grangers seem to be a pleasant, peaceful couple. I imagine them, from the few scenes in which they appear or are mentioned, as slightly bemused by all that magic, but quite proud of their accomplished daughter. I'm not sure how they'd feel, mind, if they were aware of all the danger she was getting into in the wizarding world, and I wonder what they'd do if they found out what happened to her in the MoM goings-on? tinglinger ------------- They will know soon enough once Voldemort finds out that it was Hermione who was instrumental in having Harry's story published in the Quibbler. Hermione's parents may well be in great danger in Book Six, and it just might be up to Mr. Weasley, the great Muggle Protector, to become more closely involved and live up to his billing. This scenario makes a lot of sense plotwise ( to RH SHIPPERS in particular) and was also somewhat foreshadowed OOP (CH 21, The Eye of the Snake - Hagrid's thestral lesson) [Hermione] "Well, it's like Hagrid said, ... they can look after themselves, ......they are very interesting, aren't they? The way some people can see them and some can't! I wish I could." "Do you?" Harry asked her quietly. She looked horrorstruck. Be careful what you wish for, Hermione..... You just might get your wish... And haven't you noticed that wishes DO seem to come true more often than not at Hogwarts..... tinglinger, Who loves hatching theories in the potterplots yahoogroup.... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 02:50:39 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:50:39 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: <20050612204039.11798.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130580 > > Alla: I am honestly confused as to how Sirius' death suits Dumbledore > Magda: > Well, for one thing, it would mean that Dumbledore wouldn't have to worry about Harry turning himself into James-the-sequel in order to give Sirius back the best years of his life, namely the Hogwarts years. The number of times in both GoF and OOTP when Harry swallowed his fears or his real feelings in some way so that Sirius wouldn't do something Harry considered rash indicates to me that Harry was stifling his own personality out of deference to his godfather. Had Harry continued to develop a relationship with Sirius and had they become closer, then I think there was a real danger of that happening and Dumbledore knew it. A dead Sirius can be safely praised and ignored; the live one was always in danger of coming up with yet another brilliant plan like the one that cost James and Lily their lives. That kind of initiative Dumbledore does NOT need this time around. Alla: I think I am confused again. Am I understanding you correctly that your argument is that Sirius' death suits Dumbledore in essense because Harry will be a better person without Sirius and/or he will be simply safer with Sirius dead? If this is indeed the gist of your argument , I would like to comment that essentially what Sirius wanted for Harry ( despite all his emotional unstability) in OOP, turned out to be the right thing for Harry after all. Namely, Sirius wanted to give Harry ALL information about Prophecy and Dumbledore admitted at the end that he indeed was wrong in not giving Harry that information. I tend to think that even being so depressed during OOP, Sirius realised what is best for Harry, which to me speaks volumes. I mean sure he made mistakes, but I do think that if he would survive the war and managed to continue relationship with Harry, it would have done both of them lots of good. One more thing , about Sirius coming up with brilliant plan, which cost Lily and James their lives. I am sure that was raised before but from what little I know about Lily so far, I don't consider her to be stupid, rash or impulsive and she seemed to agree to that plan. Maybe there were some merits to it after all. Just my opinion, Alla. From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 03:41:01 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:41:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full View of UK HBP cover. SPOILER... In-Reply-To: <42A9B2AB.60608@sympatico.ca> References: <410-22005651015848643@earthlink.net> <42A9B2AB.60608@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <42AD004D.7070807@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130582 Wild guesses: > > The ring belongs to the half-blood prince and is some indicator of > royalty. > The ring has a sort of serpentine look to it, so it's actually > Voldemort's. > The ring belongs to Dumbledore. > The ring is one of the 3 Elven rings and will soon be called to... oh, > wait, wrong book. > > The cave is at Hogwarts, hidden under the lake, or under the cliff. > The boat may not actually be gold, but just glowing from reflected light. > The cave and pensieve are in the Chamber of Secrets, which can be > explored now that the basilisk is gone, and the pensieve is Tom Riddle's. > > Harry and Ron do some sort of blood-brother bond ritual. > One arm looks a bit older; that's the HBP passing his powers on to Harry. > Hermione and Ron finally hold hands, and sparks fly. > Harry and Voldemort resolve their battles with a 'thumb war'. > > heather the buzzard These were so clever! The thumb war one made me howl... we just watched True Lies last week. Thanks Heather! Michelle From glcherry at bellsouth.net Mon Jun 13 03:46:15 2005 From: glcherry at bellsouth.net (stardancerofas) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 03:46:15 -0000 Subject: HBP:Cover:Spolier Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130583 It has been quite awhile since I've posted so hope I remember to do this. * * * * * * S P O I L E R S P A C E ********************* Of all the names I've seen being presented as the possible 'older' man that 'Dumbledore' is holding hands with, I've yet to see this name: Nicolas Flamel. I know in SS that Dumbledore said he would die, but he did not say when. For some reason this person (Flamel) keeps popping into my head...anyone else? Lorrie From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 13 02:52:53 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:52:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Goderic's Hollow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42ACF505.3040403@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130584 ***SPOILER SPACE*** >> >> >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>>. >>> >>> > > >Angie here: >If I remember correctly, first years are taken by boat via through an >underground cave -- wonder where else it goes? > > Where does it say that? I'm not recalling that tidbit (and my son has purloined my copy of PS, which is where I assume that factoid would be revealed, so I can't go check for myself *sob*). How would they get from the surface of the lake to an underground cave? heather the buzzard, confuzzled From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 04:16:56 2005 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050613041656.8011.qmail@web32908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130585 forgive me if this has been posted before, but i haven't had much time to check my emails so i'm kind of out of the loop...and I just downloaded the bloomsbury screen saver. That being said... * * * * * *S* *P* *O* *I* *L* *E* *R* * * * * * (did I do that right) Ok, so anyway...I just looked at the screensaver and the very last screen is an Advanced Potions book!!! Am I reading this correctly that this is confirmation that HP WILL be taking AP with Snape?? At least that's my take on it...any other thoughts?? Beckah Julia wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Claire" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chancie " > wrote: > > With all the excitement over the full cover of HBP being > > released, I thought a few of you might like to view this. > > As well as releasing the cover art for HBP they have > > also made a Screen Saver, with some VERY interesting > > art work. Here's the Link for anyone who would like to see: > > > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/ring.gif > > > > > > ~*S*~ > > ~*P*~ > > ~*O*~ > > ~*I*~ > > ~*L*~ > > ~*E*~ > > ~*R*~ > > ~*~ > > ~*~ > > SPACE Julia here: Some random thoughts about the ring (and those hands which appear in the screensaver along with the ring): First of all - I think that it is a crest of Slytherin "in" this ring. Dont know why Slytherin's but that's my guess. It's black which reminds me of something dead, not alive any more or just destroyed and without any power left. The crack on it in the shape of lighting bolt can be a connection to Harry and the events in GH - the crack might have appeared exactly then! But at the same time it can be just a coincidence cause cracks on various things almost always are in that shape. It could also be destroyed on purpose - maybe it was some kind of a seal that was broken (you know, something like the one that Pope owns - it's made when the new Pope is elected and broken when he dies...) I think that this ring can be HBP's and the other hand (one belongs to Harry) might be the hand of HBP's too. Which would mean that HBP is a Slytherin... Maybe the secret of the ring is one of the secrets that lie in the Chamber of Secrets (which makes it connected to Slytherin) My another idea is that it's a ring which belongs to Salazar Slytherin and was broken when the last descendant of Slytherin died... I'm also wondering what powers (if any!) has this ring. The screensaver suggest that the ring is a 'cause' of what happens with the two hands. Maybe it is a source of the ancient magic, or dark magic?It might be helpful for Harry to become more powerful or be one of the most desirable things for Voldemort... I dont know... so many possibilities :D What do you think? Julia Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kempermentor at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 05:06:06 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 05:06:06 -0000 Subject: Dis/Apparating 12 Grimmauld Place was (More Fidelius Charm) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130587 Steve: Can you apparate into and out of a Fidelius protected house[?] We didn't see anyone do that at Grimmauld Place. Entrance by Apparation would certainly solve some logistical problems, but would access be limited to people who had officially be given the secret? You would certainly /want/ it to be limited, but we don't know that it is. Kemper: I assumed that 12 Grimmauld Place was a place a bit like Hogwarts: you can't apparate out of it or disapparate in to it. Sirius' grandfather (or some male Black male) had all sorts of magical protections. I thought one of those protections was making it impossible to dis/apparate. It seems as though this type of protection would be incorporated by the affluent members of the WW. I would guess the Malfoy Mansion has this protection as well. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 05:11:58 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 05:11:58 -0000 Subject: Goderic's Hollow - Hogwart's Cave In-Reply-To: <42ACF505.3040403@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130588 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > >Angie here: > >If I remember correctly, first years are taken by boat via through > >an underground cave -- wonder where else it goes? > > > > > Heather: > Where does it say that? I'm not recalling that tidbit (and my son > has purloined my copy of PS, which is where I assume that factoid > would be revealed, so I can't go check for myself *sob*). How would > they get from the surface of the lake to an underground cave? > > heather the buzzard, confuzzled bboyminn: No need for spoiler space since this information is in the first book. Of course, the first years always cross the lake, and we know that Hogwarts is on a high cliff overlooking the lake. So, the cave is in the cliff face at lake level below the castlel. --- Quote - PS/SS Am Ed, PB, pg 139-140 --- And the fleet of little boats moved off all at once, gliding across the lake, which was as smooth as glass. Everyone was silent, staring up at the great castle overhead. It towered over them as they sailed nearer and nearer to the cliff on which it stood. "Heads down!" yelled Hagrid as the first boats reached the cliff; they all bent their heads and the little boats carried them through a curtain of ivy that hid a wide opening in the cliff face. They were carried along a dark tunnel, which seemed to be taking them right underneath the castle, until they reached a kind of underground harbor, where they clambered out onto rocks and pebbles. - - - end quote - - - ...wide opening in the cliff face... ...dark tunnel... ...underneath the castle... ...underground harbor... ...rocks and pebbles... One of those things that make you go ... hummmmmm? Steve/bboyminn From k.coble at comcast.net Mon Jun 13 00:57:34 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:57:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Avada Kevadra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130589 On Jun 12, 2005, at 2:24 PM, monika_zaboklicka wrote: > OK, my question is: why are unforgivable curses unforgivable? > 3. Avada Kevadra - the only one that does not seem to be rooted in > Latin, therefore I suppose it was not invented in Europe. But that's > beside the point. AK always seemed to me to be an uncomfortable > curse. It's too long: > I've always thought that of all the spells in HP, this was the one that most harkens unto "real" magick--in that it is related to that practiced from Kaballah and gematria. From Worldwidewords.org: [1] abrasadabra (the change from s to c seems to have been through a confused transliteration of the Greek). It originated as a secret and mystical word with a Gnostic sect in Alexandria called the Basilidians (named after their founder Basilides of Egypt). It was probably based on Abrasax, the name of their supreme deity (Abraxas in Latin sources), but is sometimes said to have been constructed from the initial letters of three Hebrew Words: Ab, the father, Ben, the son, and Acadsch, the holy spirit. It was used as a charm, written in the shape of a triangle on a piece of parchment worn round the neck, and was believed to have the power to cure toothaches, malaria and other scourges. And Abraxas itself was said to have magical powers of its own, as a word that represented the number of days in the year, 365. This was derived by adding up the numerical values of its seven Greek letters by a process called gematria. For this reason, it was often engraved on amulets and precious stones. ----- Further discussion from Global Yeshiva [2]: ?Abracadabra? and defined it as the Hebrew words ?abra? = (I will create) and ?k?dabra? = (as, like spoken). The ancient Hebrews, and many Jews to this day believe it is a sin to speak the name of God. The sacred Name, and the powerful magick it bespeaks has been the topic of many religions throughout the world, and many novels as well (Umberto Eco's _Foucault's Pendulum_, for example.) I've always believed that Avada Kevadra is a permutation of the original Hebrew. Instead of "I will Create As Spoken" (Abra K'Dabra), I believe it is "I Will Destroy as Spoken" . My Hebrew is very very rusty--I've left off studying it for 8 years now, and cannot remember. It would be of great help to me if there are any Hebrew speakers on either list who can further enlighten. Katherine [1] http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-abr1.htm [2] http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/8901015011/m/7981059901/r/ 4481032221 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 05:24:26 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 05:24:26 -0000 Subject: Dis/Apparating 12 Grimmauld Place was (More Fidelius Charm) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kempermentor" wrote: > Steve: > Can you apparate into and out of a Fidelius protected house[?] We > didn't see anyone do that at Grimmauld Place. Entrance by Apparation > would certainly solve some logistical problems, ... You would > certainly /want/ it to be limited, but we don't know that it is. > Kemper: > I assumed that 12 Grimmauld Place was a place a bit like Hogwarts: > you can't apparate out of it or disapparate in to it. Sirius' > grandfather (or some male Black male) had all sorts of magical > protections. I thought one of those protections was making it > impossible to dis/apparate. > > It seems as though this type of protection would be incorporated by > the affluent members of the WW. I would guess the Malfoy Mansion > has this protection as well. > > Kemper bboyminn: I was all set to argue with you when I remembered and old discussion we had. This old discussion pondered why no one apparated into the Bank or into other businesses. If people can apparate, then they could enter and exit unseen and undetected as steal whatever they wanted. In light of this, and in light of the fact that most businesses are staying in business, Charms and Spell to prevent entry by stealth must be pretty common on all places. We know the Black family ancestors put every protection imaginable on their house, but I think the book specifically mentions muggle protections. That would seem to contradict your point but as I think of it, it probably mean protection from muggles seeing the Black House. But it seems very reasonable that they would have also included entrance and detection by magical means. It seems reasonable to picture the Black family as slightly paranoid, so full magic and muggle protections. One small detail to ponder, Fred and George apparated within the Black House several times; room-to-room. Also, we have seen at least some of the enchantment protecting the Black House in operation, but we know very little about the nature of the protection on Godrics Hollow. I do suspect that under the circumstances some type of anti-apparation jinx would be standard fair. Not sure if I actually got around to saying anything, but there it is. Steve/bboyminn From srbecca at hotmail.com Sun Jun 12 21:19:06 2005 From: srbecca at hotmail.com (Rebecca Dreiling) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:19:06 +0000 Subject: Harry's use of an Unforgivable excused? (was: Who taught Voldemort?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130591 Quick silver wrote: Harry has no experience but he manages to shut Bella up pretty quick. Imagine if he had practiced on spiders for a month before hand. You know I'm sure this has come up in discusssion before but Harry did use an Unforgivable curse in OoP. Is he excused because of the context of the spell's use? Is he excused because he was fighting LV? Does anyone think that he will have to deal with a punishment for this in HBP? Or is it that the war has started and all rules/bets are off as far as spells/curses are concerned? Just curious if there is a thread discussing this. Rebecca From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 13 06:30:39 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:30:39 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow - Hogwarts' Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130592 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard > wrote: > > > >Angie here: > > >If I remember correctly, first years are taken by boat via through > > >an underground cave -- wonder where else it goes? > bboyminn: > Of course, the first years always cross the lake, and we know that > Hogwarts is on a high cliff overlooking the lake. So, the cave is in > the cliff face at lake level below the castlel. > > ...wide opening in the cliff face... > > ...dark tunnel... > > ...underneath the castle... > > ...underground harbor... > > ...rocks and pebbles... > > One of those things that make you go ... hummmmmm? Geoff: It is, however, described as a /tunnel/ and not a cave. And the fact that they have to keep their heads down and the opening is hidden by an ivy curtain suggests a smallish entry. Interesting thought just crossed my mind as to whether there is a subterranean link to the Chamber of Secrets at this level - though I presume it would be closed off in some way to stop Bertie the Basilisk ambling off for a trip round the lake and a cup of tea with the giant squid. From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 06:56:08 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:56:08 -0000 Subject: POV question in book 4, chapter 2- Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130593 Ok, so the book is from Harry's POV (Point of View) For most of the story- But how come when he wakes from the dream/vision of Frank Bryce being murdered does he SEE (or try to which implies he's in a vantage point to be looking!) LV sitting in his chair (as if he's from Frank's POV) and then sees Frank falling to the floor? Wouldn't Frank have been behind him from that vantage point, or am I missing something here? Page 17, chapter 2: The Scar, scholastic version for reference if you want to read what I was reading. He sees Peter/Wormtail and the snake as well, and this is my confusion: Where is he in the room, if he has a mental connection, through that scar of his to LV? Is he like a ghost watching, or like an intruder in LV's mind? Hasn't he seen from LV's eyes at some point, like in the MOM with the snake biting Arthur? Shouldn't he see from his eyes every time he has a vision? Or does he only see through others eyes (Like seeing inside the DOM doors, and the pathway to the prophecy shelf, someone other than LV had seen it right? So was LV projecting it to him?) Also, though I'm not too sure about this part; Why does he seem to feel the pain of the people that LV kills/tortures? (This is the feeling I got from all the books. I don't quite follow it though. Maybe it's just the scar, but I don't understand it. It was mentioned on this page too, when Harry saw LV in the chair, or tried to, right at the moment when LV killed Frank. It's been mentioned in many many fanfics as well, so I assume other people have caught this feeling from his scar pains as well, based on their interpretation of the events in their writings, so is there any truth to it?) I would really appreciate if someone can clear this up for me. Thanks, Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 07:18:27 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:18:27 -0000 Subject: Madam Hooch: Yellow Eyes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130594 wrote: > Hi, > I apologise if this has been talked about before (and if you have can > you tell me what posts to look at), but my question to anyone that is > interested is: > Why is Madam Hooche's eyes yellow? > I can't remember any other witch or wizard having different coloured > eyes from the usual, except for maybe LV. > Rowling also describes them as hawk like. > I know she doesn't play a major role in the books, but I am curious to > know if anyone has any theories? > Chys, trying to catch up with posts: I thought bird eyes right away, like she'd tried to transfigure as an animagus and got caught in the morph. (Why do I think of K.A. Applegate's 'Animorphs': 'Nothlits' creatures caught in the transformation or in form of another creature because they stayed in that form for too long -2 hour limit- without changing back, when I think of this possibility? Was there ever a time limit mentioned with an animagus's transformations?) Ollivander has silver eyes, btw. Was he a halfling or something like that, or caught in an irreversible transformation to unicorn? (Unicorn hairs on quick supply, anyone? *LOL*) Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 07:39:51 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:39:51 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map another question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130595 > Kelly: > > Just a quick question, does anyone know if the Chamber of Secrets > appears on the Marauder's Map? Chys: I believed that only things that the Marauders knew of could appear on the map, aside from people passing through these magically mapped areas while the holder of the map observes their passing? Since no one knew where it was, or so it seems, it leads me to believe it was not mapped. It seems that way since they'd never been there, but if Harry brought it with him to the chamber, would it write itself in as an extension of the owner's knowledge? Chys From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 08:24:12 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:24:12 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow - Hogwarts' Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > bboyminn: > > > Of course, the first years always cross the lake, and we know that > > Hogwarts is on a high cliff overlooking the lake. So, the cave is > > in the cliff face at lake level below the castlel. > > > > > > > > One of those things that make you go ... hummmmmm? > > > > bboyminn > Geoff: > It is, however, described as a /tunnel/ and not a cave. And the fact > that they have to keep their heads down and the opening is hidden by > an ivy curtain suggests a smallish entry. > > Interesting thought just crossed my mind as to whether there is a > subterranean link to the Chamber of Secrets at this level - though I > presume it would be closed off in some way to stop Bertie the > Basilisk ambling off for a trip round the lake and a cup of tea with > the giant squid. bboyminn: Well, I'm going to cheat a bit here; I'm going to agree and disagree, and propose a compromise. Technically, at least by some definition, is man-made, while a cave is natural. However, in general common speech, to some extent, those term can be interchanged. In fact, my dictionary makes no distinction regarding a tunnel being man-made. None the less, they typically are. Let's look at the quote again- "...the little boats carried them through a curtain of ivy that hid a wide opening in the cliff face. " "They were carried along a dark tunnel,..." 'A wide opening in the cliff face' and 'a dark tunnel'; I'm reading a bit into this but my visual image is a large opening and a smaller tunnel. That tells me that the 'large opening' is a natural, but somewhat shallow cave that has been undercut into the cliff face, and the 'dark tunnel' is a wizard-made extension that extends under the castle. In the 'harbor' area, there is a stairs that takes you up to the castle; again implying that that end of the 'tunnel' has been wizard-made. As far as ducking to get in, that may have simply been because of the overhanging vines. You duck because you don't want to get hit in the face by a curtain of vines. So, that may not reflect the true size of the entrance. Quoting again "...a curtain of ivy that HID a wide opening...". So, a blend of natural and wizard-made. Side Note: In that scene, when the students come up out of the tunnel, despite reading it many times, I have never been able to figure out where the stairs comes out. Does it literally come out inside the castle? I know the first time I read it, my mental image was of the students arriving at the top of an outside/outdoors stairway, and then walking into the castle. Later books, didn't give me that impression, but neither was it clear where in the castle the harbor-stairs are found. Just curious how other people envisioned this. Steve/bboyminn From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Mon Jun 13 09:42:18 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:42:18 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130597 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I think it would be someone from Weasley family or/and one of the students. Not Dumbledore cause it's too early for him. He must be alive at least till the half of the seventh book. I was wondering about Hagrid but am not sure... 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Dont have the slightest idea... In my opinion it would be a Slytherin or/and someone from the past. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I dont think there is any really big secrets about Lily! 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Someone new. Although if there were some problems with choosing the right person in the 5th book there is a possibility of choosing someone from the Order (Kingsley, Tonks, Lupin or Mad Eye) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? With Luna 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Mrs Bones or a Death Eater (of course somone who isnt officialy DE :D) 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Some kind of pensive but it's not like the one DD owns. It maybe a basin with some other kind of powerful potion or elixir... 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. But it will be probably private lessons cause he wont get 'O' in OWLs. Snape will agree to teach him but not in normal classes so nobody will ask questions (malfoy) like 'why the saint Potter can take advanced potions when he didnt reach the needed level!?' 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No, give poor Neville a break! He really doesnt want to study it! 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Harry will be elected a new Quidditch capitan but he will not want to become one as he knows that Ron is better at strategy and all that stuff. He will ask the team to elect Ron instead of him 2. Harry and Snape will reach a certain level of civil communication. But before it happens Harry will have a huge row with Snape (something like the one with DD at the end of OotP) when he'll tell him that he blames him for Sirius death. Harry will also be able to take advanced potions in his sixth year but he will tell Snape that he don't want to attend his classes any more and blah blah blah... DD will have to step in and in order to make Harry trust Snape (and Snape respect Harry) he will tell Harry why HE trusts Snape!! HA HA! 3. Hermione and Ron will start realising their feelings for each others or maybe even start dating officialy :D 4.Draco Malfoy will do something that will be a surprise to everybody 5. It will turn out that Harry has inherited something more than one two way mirror after Sirius' death... Julia From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 10:26:31 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:26:31 -0000 Subject: Filk: The Old Wand Song Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130598 To the tune of "The Hairbrush Song" from VeggieTales. It's one of the Silly Songs with Larry. To CMC, fellow VeggieFan, not that I'm trying to lower your cultural status or anything. The scene: The Burrow, the summer before Ron sets off to Hogwarts. Charlie has come home for a visit. Charlie digs through his old dresser drawer, in search of his old unicorn haired-wand, but finds only a wooden dowel. Unbeknownst to him, Ron is secretly practicing wand movements elsewhere in the house with the dowel's counterpart. NARRATOR: Our story opens as Charlie, now visiting his family home, is searching for his old wand. Having no success, Charlie cries out: CHARLIE: Oh, where is my old wand? Oh, where is my old wand? Oh, where, oh, where, oh, where, oh, where Oh, where, oh, where, oh, where, oh, where, Oh, where... is my old wand? NARRATOR: Having heard his cry, Percy enters the scene. Shocked, and slightly embarrassed at the sight of Charlie with a dowel, he regains his composure and reports: PERCY (gesturing downstairs): I think I saw your old wand down there. CHARLIE: Down there is my old wand. Down there is my old wand. Down there, down there, right down the stair, Right there, down there, down there, right there, Down there... is my old wand. NARRATOR: Having heard his joyous proclaimation, his sister Ginny enters the scene. Shocked, and slightly embarrassed at the sight of Charlie with a dowel, Ginny regains her composure and comments: GINNY: Why do you need your old wand? Your new wand has more hair. NARRATOR: Charlie is taken aback. The thought had never occurred to him. More hair? What does this mean? What will become of him? What will become of his old wand? Charlie wonders: CHARLIE: More hair in my new wand. More hair in my new wand. More hair, more hair, more hair in there, More hair in there, in there more hair, More hair... in my new wand. NARRATOR: Having heard his wondering, Molly, his mother enters the scene. Shocked and slightly embarrassed at the sight of Charlie with a dowel, she regains her composure and confesses: MOLLY: Charlie, that old first wand of yours. Well, you never use it. Y- You don't really need it. So, well, I'm sorry, I didn't know, but I gave it to our Ron, 'cause he needs hair. NARRATOR: Feeling a deep sense of loss, Charlie stumbles back and laments: CHARLIE: Not fair, oh, my old wand. Not fair, my poor old wand. Not fair, not fair, not fair, not fair, Not fair, more hair, more hair, not fair, Not fair, my little old wand. NARRATOR: Having heard his lament, young Ron enters the scene, himself with a dowel. Both Charlie and his bro are shocked and slightly embarrassed at the sight of ...each other. But recognizing Charlie's generosity, young Ron is thankful: RON: Thanks for your old wand. NARRATOR: Yes, good has been done here. Young Ron exits the scene. Charlie smiles, but still feeling an emotional attachment to his old wand, Charlie calls out: CHARLIE: Take care of my old wand. Take care of my old wand. Take care, take care, take care, take care, Don't dare not care, don't dare not care, Take care... of my old wand. NARRATOR: The end. Ginger, inspired to write about a hairbrush due to having had 24 inches of her own hair cut off today. If you want to see pics, e- mail me at quigonginger at yahoo.com. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jun 13 13:09:06 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:09:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's use of an Unforgivable excused? (was: Who taught Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130599 > You know I'm sure this has come up in discusssion before but Harry did > use an Unforgivable curse in OoP. Is he excused because of the > context of the spell's use? Is he excused because he was fighting LV? > Does anyone think that he will have to deal with a punishment for this > in HBP? Or is it that the war has started and all rules/bets are off > as far as spells/curses are concerned? > > Just curious if there is a thread discussing this. > > Rebecca Hi Rebecca, This one has been discussed before but I don't think I have ever really contributed directly to it. The way I see it Harry can't be excused for using (read trying to use) the unforgivable Crutiatus. On the other hand by a stroke of interesting irony I think the point is that he can be *forgiven* for his mistake, it might be time to change the name of the curses. LOL Valky From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 13 14:33:04 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:33:04 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Thread on HBP midnight parties moved to OTC Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130600 Greetings from Hexquarters! We are naturally delighted to see our posters avidly discussing the possibilities of midnight release parties and meeting up with each other. However, such discussion is Off-Topic for this list, and should be moved to OTC, our sister list for everything else you could want to discuss. Existing posts have be moved there, and all future posts to those threads must go there as well; any additional messages will be removed. If you'd like to see the thread at OTC, you can find it here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/27547 Thanks, Shorty Elf, for the Admin Team From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 14:53:02 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:53:02 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 31 days left -- email entry to Tiger Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130601 Copy the questions below and post your answers *both* to the newsgroup and*email them* to *tigerpatronus* *at* *yahoo* *dot* *com.* If you do not email the entry to TK, you are not entered in the contest. You will receive an email confirmation of your entry. Any details released by JKR or subsidiaries are worth no credit *after* they are released. Example: if you predict that "A chapter will be entitled `Draco's Detour,'" it will be worth 0 points. However, if you make a prediction *and email your prediction to the list and to TigerPatronus* and *then* the detail is released, you will get full credit. See list for updates on what has been disallowed. If you are JKR, work at the publishing company, or have somehow else have already read the book, don't enter. We will find out, e-hunt you down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. Specificity will be rewarded. Brevity is . . . wit. All decisions of the judges (TigerPatronus and her minions) are arbitrary, ruthless, and final. (Minion recruitment will be based on number of entries received.) ***Deadline: July 15, 2005, Noon, EDT.*** Prizes: Grand Prize (1): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Your Brilliance," "Leader of the Intelligentsia," "The HP-est," or a title of your own choosing. A filk will be composed in your honor. A year's worth of free butterbeer. Honorable Mentions (10): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Pretty Smartie," "A Member of the Intelligentsia," "Quite HP-ish," or a subordinate title of your own choosing. A free case of butterbeer. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. TK - TigerPatronus! From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 15:05:28 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:05:28 -0000 Subject: Harry's use of an Unforgivable excused? (was: Who taught Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca Dreiling" wrote: > > You know I'm sure this has come up in discusssion before but Harry did use an Unforgivable curse in OoP. Is he excused because of the context of the spell's use? Is he excused because he was fighting LV? Does anyone think that he will have to deal with a punishment for this in HBP? Or is it that the war has started and all rules/bets are off as far as spells/curses are concerned? > Tonks: I think that Harry was very wrong to do that curse, even under the circumstances. When I *watched* him doing it, I screamed "NO Harry, NO!!" But will he be arrested for it? Probably not. My reasoning here is that while everything an underage wizard does outside of Hogwarts seems to be monitored, and (especially at Pivot Dr. because the MoM is probably monitoring that area extra close), since this was in the MoM it may have gone unnoticed. Also, it may be that the victim must press charges just as in the Muggle world. But on a more important point, I think that Harry has to search his soul about this. Here is another situation in which he did not stop and think and control his emotions. Yes, I know that it would be hard to do in that situation, but control his emotions he must. (I sound like Yoda, I know.) In RL we all, at some time in our lives, become angry enough to hurt or even kill someone, but most of us don't. And we don't because we have control of our strong emotions. I think that Harry will have to learn this as well. True, his attempt did not go well because it wasn't in him to *really* do it, but still I think he needs to sit in the corner for a bit and think about the ramifications of it all. I think that only Aurors have the sanctions to use the Unforgivables in wartime. Wizards like DD are above that and are, as we have seen, very able to defend themselves and others without stooping to such methods. I also don't think that JKR is going to give the message to children that it is OK to zap your enemy. There is enough of that in the world already. Tonks_op From feenyjam at msu.edu Mon Jun 13 16:47:43 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:47:43 -0000 Subject: Dis/Apparating 12 Grimmauld Place was (More Fidelius Charm) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130603 > > bboyminn said: > > I was all set to argue with you when I remembered and old discussion > we had. This old discussion pondered why no one apparated into the > Bank or into other businesses. If people can apparate, then they could > enter and exit unseen and undetected as steal whatever they wanted. > > In light of this, and in light of the fact that most businesses are > staying in business, Charms and Spell to prevent entry by stealth must > be pretty common on all places. > > We know the Black family ancestors put every protection imaginable on > their house, but I think the book specifically mentions muggle > protections. That would seem to contradict your point but as I think > of it, it probably mean protection from muggles seeing the Black > House. But it seems very reasonable that they would have also included > entrance and detection by magical means. It seems reasonable to > picture the Black family as slightly paranoid, so full magic and > muggle protections. > > One small detail to ponder, Fred and George apparated within the Black > House several times; room-to-room. > > Also, we have seen at least some of the enchantment protecting the > Black House in operation, but we know very little about the nature of > the protection on Godrics Hollow. I do suspect that under the > circumstances some type of anti-apparation jinx would be standard fair. > > Not sure if I actually got around to saying anything, but there it is. > Greenfirespike says: Steve, if I remember correctly, you have previously mentioned your fixation with magical transportation. Reading this thread reminded me of this. So, please indulge me, does the existence of Portkeys bother you? We know from OotP that you can use a Portkey to move into/out of Hogwarts, as well as a magically guarded places such as 12 Grimmuald Place. As I understand it, only authorized persons can summon a Portkey. Which has opened up several questions for me. 1) Is DD authorized to generate a Portkey? 2) If not, then is there a way for the Ministry of magic to recognize the illegal creation/use of one? I am going to assume yes because there is Department of Magical Transport, and I would hope they can identify an illegal/unauthorized Portkey. 3) Why doesn't LV, or any of the DE's use a Porkey (either create one themselves, or control a Department of Magical Transport employee to create one for them) to launch an attack in Hogwarts. At the very least, we know you can create a Portkey into the Headmasters office in Hogwarts. And I can't think of a better place to launch a surprise attack from inside Hogwarts. Ever wondering and rereading. Greenfirespike From johnk at gwu.edu Mon Jun 13 13:33:40 2005 From: johnk at gwu.edu (John Kearns) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:33:40 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts' Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130604 > bboyminn: > In that scene, when the students come up out of the tunnel, despite > reading it many times, I have never been able to figure out where the > stairs comes out. Does it literally come out inside the castle? > > I know the first time I read it, my mental image was of the students > arriving at the top of an outside/outdoors stairway, and then walking > into the castle. Later books, didn't give me that impression, but > neither was it clear where in the castle the harbor-stairs are found. > Just curious how other people envisioned this. > I always read this scene as if the cave/tunnel were entirely wizard- made, like the castle was built out over a part of the lake. And I certainly always read it as though the stairs lead directly into Hogwarts, though I was probably influenced by the movie (which I saw before I ever picked up the book). And this doesn't make a lot of sense with the maps we've seen or with the idea that Harry and Hermione can walk around the lake several times (if my image was correct, they'd also have to walk around the castle). Now that I look at the passage again, it describes how the students "walked up a flight of stone steps and crowded around the huge, oak front door." Sure sounds to me like they've gone outside, and are now going to enter the castle through the main entrance. Depending on how many steps they walked, the cave might even be some distance from the school. I wish the cave was referenced at some other point in the books, to give it some context. Perhaps it was hidden purposefully. John From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 13 15:54:54 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:54:54 -0000 Subject: Harry's use of an Unforgivable excused? (was: Who taught Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130605 "Rebecca Dreiling" wrote: > Harry did use an Unforgivable curse in OoP. > Is he excused because of the context of the spell's use? No, he is excused because Wizard law is never ever enforced to the letter UNLESS you are in the Ministry's disfavor, and by the end of OoP Harry was back in their good graces. As far as the Ministry is concerned I imagine Harry could literally get away with murder now, the same privileged position Lucius Malfoy once had. Eggplant > From riyo at verizon.net Mon Jun 13 16:49:56 2005 From: riyo at verizon.net (tiiana) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:49:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: poor Grangers - they will need protection Message-ID: <11200556.1118681396808.JavaMail.root@vms068.mailsrvcs.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130606 >tinglinger >------------- >They will know soon enough once Voldemort finds out >that it was Hermione who was instrumental in having >Harry's story published in the Quibbler. >Hermione's parents may well be in great danger in >Book Six, and it just might be up to Mr. Weasley, >the great Muggle Protector, to become more closely >involved and live up to his billing. tiiana said: Something I just thought about and it may be a prediction to who will die in HBP. There is nothing to say that either or both of Hermione's parents would be killed. Granted, there isn't too much about them in the books to justify them dying, but it will put a spin on Hermione's emotions. Also, it would give reason for Hermione spending the rest of her time with the Weasley's as opposed to just summers and other vacation time which basically doubled in OotP. tinglinger said: >Be careful what you wish for, Hermione..... >You just might get your wish... >And haven't you noticed that wishes DO seem to come >true more often than not at Hogwarts..... > tiiana said: Exactly. I hope that it doesn't happen at all be it book 6 or 7. However, since the "you ask what you wish for" scenario seems to happen quite often in the HP series (don't have the books with me so don't kill me if it isn't true), I can really see this coming true. Sorry for just repeating myself. I just completely lost my train of thought. ~~~tiiana -<--{@ From feenyjam at msu.edu Mon Jun 13 17:21:51 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:21:51 -0000 Subject: Who taught Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130607 > > > Who taugh Voldemort the AK and Cruciatus Curse when he graduated > > > out from Hogwarts? > > > > > > I think the AK curse is much older than Voldie himself. And I > > > don't think they taught unforgivable curses at Hogwarts, unless > > > the headmaster and some teachers were into Dark Arts... Or his > > > friends at Hogwarts, into the Dark Arts, taught him between > > > classes (despite he was incredibly talented to begin to call > > > himself as "Lord Voldemort"), since he was locked into a muggle > > > orphanage while holidays until he became adult? > > > > > > We know that in the restricted section of the library they keep > > books of advanced Dark Arts that are only used by students in > > advanced Defense against the Dark Arts. And Fake Moody states the > > Unforgivable are discussed/taught, at least their effect and > > probably theory, in the 6th year. If a student was good at > > experimenting they could probably master the Unforgivable quite > > easily...Harry has no experience but he manages to shut Bella up > > pretty quick. Imagine if he had practiced on spiders for a month > > before hand. > > > > And then there is Knockturn Alley which is devoted to the Dark Arts > > and clearly open to the wizarding public since it is the Weasley > > parents and not the law that keeps the Twins and Ron out. > > > > There are probably tons of ways for old Voldemort to get his hand > on > > material...he is supposed to be the most brilliant student to ever > > go to Hogwarts (and both Hermione and Harry know spells well above > > there grade level). > > > > "quick_silver71" > > > Sue: > > All this and also, don't forget that Riddle was a Slytherin and there > would have been kids > who, like the young Snape, already knew curses before they arrived. I > mean, if he did, why > not some before his time? I bet there was a Malfoy at Hogwarts > (Lucius's Dad?) and we > know that they collect Dark Arts goodies, and the dreadful Black > family (before they > produced that white sheep Sirius). He could easily have learned > curses from his fellow > Slytherins, as well as from the restricted books, which he might have > been allowed to look > at because he was such a nice boy, so good at his work, and good at > sucking up to the > librarian. (I'm a school librarian myself and I know how I love it > when a student enjoys > reading). "I know I'm only in fifth year, Madam X, but I really want > to be an auror and I > need to have a look at some of those books to get into sixth year > DADA..." Greenfirespike says: This is my favorite non-Harry related topic. How did LV become LV? How did he get an army of DE's? How many DE's? Who are they? Sadly we have little information about this, and I often find my thoughts wandering to a hopefully soon to be published chapter entitled "Creating the Darkest of Wizards, and the Darkest of Armies." Alas, I doubt this will ever come true. What we do know is this TR is extraordinary bright, and cunning, as he figured out how to open the Chamber of Secrets as managed to pin the entire blame on Hagrid. We know that at the end of his Hogwarts career, TR's close friends (who are these people!!!) began to call him LV. We know that after graduation, TR/early!LV began to travel far and wide, chilling with the worst kind of dark wizards. Thus we can assume that he knowledge is from his Hogwarts schooling, and teaching from other dark wizards. I highly doubt that one witch/wizard alone taught LV a good amount of what he knows. Grindelwald is really the only person we know of that could be the only tutor for LV. We know that he was defeated by DD in 1945, and he was the darkest wizard for a century (or something close). But is seems to me that Grindelwald was defeated about the time TR graduates from Hogwarts (thanks to the Lexicon timeline). Thus making a tutoring by Grindelwald unlikely. GFS From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 13 17:26:08 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:26:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts' Tunnel *SPOILER* In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42ADC1B0.8000608@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130608 S P O I L E R S P A C E I'm putting the spoiler space back in because even though we're talking about a tunnel that's mentioned in the first book, we're actually using it as a reference for discussing the pictures on the HBP cover. I also changed the subject line from "cave" to "tunnel", for the same reason... Thanks to those who quoted the relevant passage about the tunnel from the lake from PS. I had *totally* forgotten about it. My 7yo son finished PS about a week ago, and I had read passages to him sometimes, but not that particular one. Very interesting, indeed. John Kearns wrote: >I always read this scene as if the cave/tunnel were entirely wizard- >made, like the castle was built out over a part of the lake. > > >And this doesn't make a lot of sense with the maps we've seen or with the idea that Harry and Hermione can walk around the lake several times (if my image was correct, they'd also have to walk around the castle). > > heather now: I would guess something like this... the shore of the lake is not all flat. At least at one spot on the outer rim of the lake, it butts up against a cliff face. You can walk over this easily though, it's just walking up a hill with a cliff to one side. The shore slopes, in other words. You would be at this point, walking over the tunnel. While the lake *appears* to end at the cliff face, it actually does extend into this hidden tunnel. Inside the tunnel, the water ends, and there are stone steps to go back up to the main grounds. John: >I wish the cave was referenced at some other point in the books, to >give it some context. Perhaps it was hidden purposefully. > Now that I know about this passage, I'm inclined to agree with you. My first impression when I saw the cover art, like many others, was the first-year rowboats. I would not be at all surprised if there is another hidden offshoot, either within that tunnel or another separate tunnel altogether. What puzzles me, though, is that if there is something secret down there, why would they take the first-years through? Everyone at Hogwarts knows about this tunnel. Unless, it's a secret cave that even the adminstration doesn't know about. Maybe there's a storm on September 1st and the boats get blown off course, and one boat accidentally stumbles across this hidden cave with a strange pensieve that used to belong to someone who apparently called themselves the half-blood prince... and events start to unfold from there... heather the buzzard From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 17:37:38 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050613173738.10916.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130609 > Alla: > > I think I am confused again. Am I understanding you correctly that > your argument is that Sirius' death suits Dumbledore in essense > because Harry will be a better person without Sirius and/or he will > be simply safer with Sirius dead? Yes to both. Dumbledore wouldn't have WANTED Sirius to die; he doesn't want anyone to die. But let's just say that I don't think he's blinded by grief. > If this is indeed the gist of your argument , I would like to > comment that essentially what Sirius wanted for Harry ( despite all > his emotional unstability) in OOP, turned out to be the right thing > for Harry after all. So what? I mean really, why does this matter? There's a lot of things Sirius wanted for Harry - including that Harry be a substitute "bestest mate" for himself. Some things were good, some were bad. > I tend to think that even being so depressed during OOP, Sirius > realised what is best for Harry, which to me speaks volumes. If Sirius truly had any idea of what was best for Harry, he'd have worked harder at getting closer to him rather than hiding out in Buckbeak's room for hours at a time, he'd have sucked up his disappointment about his life and put on a confident front so that Harry's stress level didn't erupt, and he'd have refrained from telling Harry that "you're less like your father than I thought" and abruptly ending a floo conversation. It was Harry who knew better what was good for Sirius. Sirius was projecting his and James' reactions to things onto Harry and being surprised when they didn't stick. > I mean sure he made mistakes, but I do think that if he would > survive the war and managed to continue relationship with Harry, it > would have done both of them lots of good. They could have continued to grow up together. > One more thing , about Sirius coming up with brilliant plan, which > cost Lily and James their lives. I am sure that was raised before > but from what little I know about Lily so far, I don't consider her > to be stupid, rash or impulsive and she seemed to agree to that > plan. Maybe there were some merits to it after all. What merits, precisely? Twelve dead muggles might disagree with that assessment. Lily wouldn't be the first wife who'd gone along with her husband's views. Magda __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 13 17:44:44 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:44:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 31 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42ADC60C.7060208@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130610 Prizes: >Grand Prize (1): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU >members must address you as "Your Brilliance," "Leader of the >Intelligentsia," "The HP-est," or a title of your own choosing. A >filk will be composed in your honor. A year's worth of free >butterbeer. > > Oh, how can I resist THAT? =D >Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > >1. Who will be the most major character to die? > > Lupin. >2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," >describe more.) > > (New character) A historical figure from long, long ago, with some supernatural connection to current events and characters. >3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated >and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) > > It's connected to Petunia's secrets. And it involves Lupin. That's all I'll say. >4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? > > Kingsley Shacklebolt. >5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? > > Luna. >6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? > > Madam Bones. >7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? > > Pensieve. *Whose* pensieve is the bigger question. >8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? > > Indubitably. >9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? > > Nope, but he'll be in Advanced Herbology. >10. How many OWLs did Harry get? > > I can't even figure out how many he tried. My best count is 9, so I would say he passed 8 of them. But if Percy got 12, then there must be more classes... Harry didn't do Runes or Arithmancy or Muggle Studies, what else is there? Anyway, my official answer is this: He'll get all that he tried except for one. >Predictions (0-10 points each): >Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > > 1. Harry will continue to wrestle with his anger and grief, being generally a most unpleasant fellow to be around. This will create distance between himself and Ron and Hermione -- despite their attempts to help him, he pushes them away. 2. The only student he really feels calm around will be, surprisingly, Luna, because she really just make a big deal out of anything. They will discover unexpected connections, and thus their romance will ensue. She will have some secret that is important for him to know. 3. Harry will stubbornly continue to try and contract Sirius "through the veil". And in a surprising break with tradition, will actually succeed. 4. Ron and Hermione will continue to butt heads, as her relationship with Viktor comes to an important decision-making time. Viktor has graduated from Durmstrang and wants to get 'serious' with Hermione, which will make Ron, um, rather jealous, as he finally starts to realize and accept his feelings. 5. Gryffindor will win the Quidditch cup, with Ron as their captain, despite the friction between the captain/keeper and the seeker. This will, in fact, be the beginning of their reconciliation. heather the buzzard From nrenka at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 17:45:27 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:45:27 -0000 Subject: Lily and the SK Switch (Was: Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: <20050613173738.10916.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130611 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: >> Alla: >> One more thing, about Sirius coming up with brilliant plan, which >> cost Lily and James their lives. I am sure that was raised before >> but from what little I know about Lily so far, I don't consider her >> to be stupid, rash or impulsive and she seemed to agree to that >> plan. Maybe there were some merits to it after all. > > What merits, precisely? Twelve dead muggles might disagree with > that assessment. Lily wouldn't be the first wife who'd gone along > with her husband's views. The original merits would have been avoiding the obvious (Sirius) and thus (hopefully) gaining some more security in what were apparently very difficult times. Of course it goes badly wrong, but James and Lily agree to doing it, with three parties being fooled badly by the fourth. We don't know anything more about the scenario. What I think Alla is trying to express is that from what little we know of Lily, she's been presented as a sharp, daring (testing the limits of the Statue of Secrecy, per interview; not to mention the unknown 'defying him three times') and independent-minded character. I can't see her rolling over and just acquiescing to something that she didn't like. A little more likely to say "I don't like your plan. It sucks." if she felt that it did. It is possible that there was a big argument and she was against it but went along with it anyways--we're clearly in the realm of the hypothetical. I don't see it as fitting what we know of her personality, though. And I certainly don't see James as able to bully or argue her into submission, or Sirius as being so eloquent and charming as to persuade her--if she didn't agree. YMMV. This may well be answered in a month or so. -Nora gets back to more fun with Mr. Bartok From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 18:00:47 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:00:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts' Tunnel *SPOILER* In-Reply-To: <42ADC1B0.8000608@sympatico.ca> References: <42ADC1B0.8000608@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130612 On 6/13/05, heather the buzzard wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > What puzzles me, though, is that if there is something secret down > there, why would they take the first-years through? Everyone at > Hogwarts knows about this tunnel. > > heather the buzzard > > I always looked at is as a symbolic crossing from one world to another. In many mythologies there is a boatman who takes the dead from the land of the living to the land of the dead. I see it like that except it's taking Harry from the muggle world to the wizard world. Of course this is Harry-centric but there ya go. -- Gregory Lynn From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 13 18:41:06 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:41:06 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--The Spy (LONG) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130613 For Part One see Msg # 129902 With this part of the theory we move to firmer ground. Only Snape seems to think that Lupin could have been involved in the incident popularly known as The Prank. But we have multiple grounds to think that Lupin might be involved with the Death Eaters: not only Snape, but also Sirius and even Hermione(!) have entertained the idea. None of the evidence is direct, but once again, all JKR has to do is connect the dots. But Peter was the secret-keeper and betrayed the secret, doesn't that make him the spy? Well, no, it doesn't. The spy is linked to Voldemort's second in command, (1) and JKR's website suggests that the second in command isn't Pettigrew. The Lestranges were 'sent' after the Longbottoms (2), and by that time they thought Pettigrew was dead. That was a good thing for him, because according to Sirius, the DE's in Azkaban wanted a little chat with Peter about what had gone wrong at Godric's Hollow. From what Sirius says, (3) it's highly unlikely that the Lestranges would have let Peter Pettigrew send them anywhere, even if they had known he was alive. The only evidence against Peter as the spy is the confession that CAPSLOCK!Sirius bullied out of him...and we know that Peter is easily bullied. If it is credible that he was bullied into betraying his friends, it is credible that he was bullied into confessing falsely. There are other reasons to doubt Peter's confession. Peter flinches at the Dark Lord's name. (4) But Voldemort's closest confederates: Quirrell, (5) Lucius (6), Barty Crouch (7) and Bella (8), do not. They also profess a sychophantic admiration for their Master, as Pettigrew never does. He gushes about his new hand, but even then he never fawns on Voldemort the way that he fawned on James. The spy would have had to deceive Dumbledore for an entire year, and though no magic power is foolproof, Dumbledore can usually tell when someone is lying to him. (9) Peter shows no sign of skill at occlumency -- Crookshanks was immediately suspicious of him (10) Peter certainly doesn't seem to have any control of his feelings; his nerve collapsed the moment he heard that Sirius was on the loose (11). How could he possibly have served two masters for an entire year unsuspected? Tom Riddle said he thought someone would realize Hagrid couldn't be Slytherin's Heir. Should we not ask, how could anyone believe that Peter was the spy? His friends certainly never suspected him, or they would never have chosen him to be the secret-keeper. Lupin, on the other hand, has a problem with the ministry, is practiced at keeping secrets, and seems to be an occlumens. Even Sirius thought he had turned. He must have had a compelling reason, beyond knowing that he himself was innocent. It is possible to come up with excuses for all of Lupin's behavior that we know about, after all, so why wouldn't Sirius have done so? Why did he think Lupin had turned? We don't know. But one thing we do know, and it is key: Dumbledore feels that those who have been unjustly treated by the wizarding world will be tempted to join Voldemort(12) Spies, both in literature and real life, are often recruited from the ranks of those with dual loyalties. We can see in OOP that there was tension between Hermione's goals and the Order's when it came to the freedom of House Elves. Hermione accepted that the Order's needs came first -- we don't see her trying to trick Kreacher into accepting freedom the way she tried to trick the Hogwarts Elves. But Hermione is only an underage witch, and one with a great respect for authority in general and Albus Dumbledore in particular. And her crusade for the House Elves is, after all, the sort of teenaged enthusiasm that waxes and wanes. But Lupin was a grown man, an experienced subversive, a full member of the Order, and the cause of werewolves was obviously a matter of intense personal importance to him. Sirius implies that Lupin is very angry at Umbridge for the laws she's recently passed which make it even harder for werewolves to find work(13) -- but since Lupin was already jobless, his wrath must be on behalf of others. Lupin wears his poverty like a badge; his case is knotted together with string instead of being repaired by magic, he wears his usual shabby robes even to the opening feast. Is he making a statement? With the oppressive Ministry regime working against Voldemort, tension between Lupin and the Order over how far to support it would seem inevitable. Lupin says himself that if Voldemort offers the goblins rights and freedoms they've been denied for centuries, they'll be tempted. (14) Why should werewolves be different? Dumbledore has sent emissaries to the Giants (15) and the Goblins (16) to encourage them to resist Voldemort's effforts to recruit them. We do not know directly that Voldemort was recruiting werewolves, but we know that even Dumbledore believes people will assume that a werewolf could only be on Voldemort's side. ( 17)Even Hermione cites Lupin's lycanthropy as a reason to believe he's helping Sirius, ie, working for Voldemort.(18 ) Voldemort might have been able to offer something more concrete than the promise of a world where werewolves will be treated decently. The wolfsbane potion is a recent development. (19) Why recent? There have been werewolves for centuries. Little effort seems to have been spent on managing the condition, which after all affects only an unhappy few. But Voldemort would certainly have a use for manageable werewolves and he had an expert potions maker at his disposal. It sounds like the orphan drug issue, a problem JKR would be familiar with from her mother's struggle with MS. Lupin could never exercise his full talents in a world controlled by the ministry. But in the Death Eaters, he might command even purebloods like Malfoy and the Lestranges. It is worth noting that it is the faction who are *opposed* to Voldemort who fear and distrust werewolves: Mrs. Black, the Slytherin parents, even Molly. At any rate, it looks like something came between Lupin and his old friends. He is not sitting next to James or Sirius in Moody's photo (20), he is apparently not to be found in Harry's collection of photos of Lily and James (was he the photographer?) and he was not present at Harry's christening (21). Fudge hints that school friends don't always remain close. (22) Dumbledore himself offered to be the Potters' secret- keeper, but James refused. He would trust only Sirius Black. Dumbledore remained worried. (23) Secretly, however, James and Lily chose Peter Pettigrew to be their secret-keeper instead (24). It is a puzzling matter. Why did the Potters refuse Dumbledore's offer? Would they have risked their own lives and the life of their son just to show confidence in Sirius? Surely the Potters didn't think that Dumbledore would betray them (he would have had lots of chances to do so already) and he was known to be the only one whom Voldemort feared. It seems more likely that they thought that someone Dumbledore trusted enough to transmit the secret would deliver it to Voldemort instead. Now the switch makes sense. Sirius would not have expected Voldemort to come after the secret personally. He would have expected the spy to do it -- and he thought that Lupin was the spy (25). James seems to have agreed, since he went along with the choice. Perhaps something in the web of guilty secrets that bound them all together aroused their suspicions while making it impossible to tell Dumbledore why they had come to distrust their old friend. I have suggested the prank, but it might have been some incident that we don't know about yet. Sirius and James kept their suspicions secret from Lupin instead of confronting him, another indicator that they weren't as close as they used to be. They may have been trying to set a trap. Sirius would pretend to reveal the secret to Lupin, Voldemort would attack the wrong house, and the spy would be exposed without any awkwardness about animagi, schoolboy confidences and raids on Hogsmeade. The last minute switch to Peter ensured that Sirius couldn't be made to reveal the real secret even by trickery. But if Lupin was the spy who betrayed Pettigrew, how did he find out? There was one other person who knew about the Secret-Keeper switch. Did Lily tell Lupin, unwittingly betraying herself? As a Muggleborn she might have sympathized with Lupin much as Hermione does. *Someone* seems to have bargained with Voldemort for Lily's life -- perhaps Lupin thought that if he betrayed Peter, he could save her. Next: Godric's Hollow and After Notes: (All references US hardcovers. I am sorry I can't give pages for GoF, I can only find my Raincoast edition at the moment) (1) Links between the spy and the second in command 'Black was a big supporter of You-Know-Oo' PoA ch 3 p 38, 'Very close to You Know 'Oo, they say,' PoA ch 3 p 39 'I 'eard he thought 'e'd be second-in-command once You-Know-'Oo 'ad taken over.' PoA ch 3 p39 'his most devoted servant' (Fudge) PoA ch 10 p 209 'one of their best men' (Pettigrew) PoA ch 19 p369 (2) The Lestranges were 'sent' http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/rumours_view.cfm?id=25 (3)Sirius re: the DE's attitude toward Peter PoA ch 19 368 (4)Peter flinches PoA ch 19 p 368 (5)Quirrell says the name, SS ch 17 p 290, 291 (6) Lucius hears it, CoS ch 18 p 335 (7) Barty Crouch says it, GoF ch 35 , hears it GoF ch 35 (8) Bella hears it, OOP ch 35, p 784 (9) Dumbledore can tell when someone is lying OOP ch 37 p 832 (10) Crookshanks is suspicious PoA ch 4 p 59 (11) Peter's nerve collapses PoA ch 19 p 364 (12)"We wizards have mistreated and abused our fellows for too long, and we are now reaping our reward" (Dumbledore) OOP ch 37 p 834 (13) "You should hear Remus talk about [Umbridge]" (Sirius) OOP ch 14 p 302 (14 "they're going to be tempted" (Lupin) OOP ch 5 p 85 (15) GoF ch 36 p Also see OOP ch 5 p 85 (16) OOP ch 5 p 85 (17) "werewolves are so distrusted by most of our kind that his support will count for very little" (Dumbledore) PoA ch 21 p392 (18) "He's been helping Black get into the castle, he wants you dead too -- he's a werewolf!" (Hermione) PoA ch 17 p 344 (19) wolfsbane potion is recent PoA ch 18 p 352 (20) Moody's photo OOP ch 9 p 174 (21) Harry's christening http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 (22) "Nothing changed when they left school" (Fudge) PoA ch 10 p 204 (23)Dumbledore was worried PoA ch 10 p 205 (24) Lily and James chose the secret-keeper PoA ch 19 p 369 (25) Sirius thought Lupin was the spy PoA ch 19 p 373 From devika261 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 13 18:42:55 2005 From: devika261 at hotmail.com (Devika) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:42:55 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: In-Reply-To: <42ADC60C.7060208@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130614 Crawling out of a deep and long lurkdom... :) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" wrote: > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy, although I think that Dumbledore will be made unavailable in some way by the end of the book. He'll come back in Book 7 for the final battle with Voldemort. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Godric Gryffindor. I think that Harry is a descendent of Gryffindor and that he will find this out and what it means, if anything. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I don't think she had a big secret, although we still don't know very much at all about either Lily or James. Hopefully in this book Harry will ask more questions and find out more about his parents. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis, the "Lion Man," although I'm at a complete loss to make any predictions about him. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one, in this book. However, he will begin to see Ginny in a whole new light by the end, setting the stage for a relationship in Book 7. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I think Fudge will stick around at least until the end of the book. After that, maybe Amelia Bones. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and say it's a Pensieve, although I don't think it belongs to Dumbledore. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No, although I think he passed the OWL. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Everything besides Divination and Astronomy (which he doesn't need anyway if he still wants to be an Auror) > > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. We will see the Department of Mysteries again, most likely the room where they study death. 2. Harry will visit Godric's Hollow. 3. Harry will see the Fidelius Charm performed and possibly participate in it himself. I also think that the picture of the hands on the UK cover is the Fidelius Charm being performed. 4. We will find out what Harry's parents did for a living and why they were such a threat to Voldemort (i.e. why they were attacked by Voldemort 3 times before Harry was born) 5. As the closest thing to a descendent that Sirius had, Harry will inherit Number 12, Grimmauld Place. Devika, going back into semi-lurkdom :) From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 17:58:49 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (parisfan_ca) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:58:49 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: <20050613173738.10916.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130615 magda wrote; > It was Harry who knew better what was good for Sirius. Sirius was > projecting his and James' reactions to things onto Harry and being > surprised when they didn't stick. Let us not forget that Sirius lost twelve years to grow and mature as an adult and to be in solitary confinment for said time surround by dementors and left to his own worst thoughts is psycologically damaging enough for anyone. I am an optimist in that I beleive if given half the chance to be free and experience life in a positve way Sirius would have emotionally grown up a lot laurie From larriepam2000 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 18:08:06 2005 From: larriepam2000 at yahoo.com (larriepam2000) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:08:06 -0000 Subject: poor Grangers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130616 "monika_zaboklicka" wrote: > Don't you think that Mrs and Mr Granger are the most wronged characters > in entire series? These kind people brought up their girl well, taught > her to study, to be a decent person, to help those weaker that herself > And what did they get in return? They > hardly see their darling, who shares her time between Hogwarts' and > Weasley family, cuts short holidays with her devoted parents and > experiments with her teeth against better advice of the two dentists > who love her dearly? > You have to think like an only child, which Hermiome is. We crave the family we never had.Hermione see Ginny as the sister, Percy, George, Fred, Ron as brothers. In this way she has made great strides in sharpening her social skills that she so dearly needed. In my minds eye I see the Grangers as a bit older than most parents. They had their career in place before starting a family. Hermione is an excellent example of the only child. Book smart but lacking in any social skills what so ever, understandable, who would she ever practice on? Her parents gave her a good foundation now she needs to find her place in the world, like we all did. She will make mistakes and have failors but now she has two families to support her as she finds her way. Lucky girl. Lauriepam. From jennefer_pizza at muzak.com Mon Jun 13 13:55:05 2005 From: jennefer_pizza at muzak.com (jenzajlp) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:55:05 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER In-Reply-To: <410-22005661116581578@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chancie " wrote: > With all the excitement over the full cover of HBP being > released, I thought a few of you might like to view this. > As well as releasing the cover art for HBP they have > also made a Screen Saver, with some VERY interesting > art work. Here's the Link for anyone who would like to see: > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbp/ring.gif > > > ~*S*~ > ~*P*~ > ~*O*~ > ~*I*~ > ~*L*~ > ~*E*~ > ~*R*~ > ~*~ > ~*~ > SPACE > ********************* > > This page includes a VERY close up view of the Ring, > and of the Hands in the "rope of fire". > > It's clear that one of the hands appears to be MUCH > older than the second as many have said, and the ring > appears to be more black than anything else from what > I can see. If I had to call the design in the ring anything, > it would probably have to be a lightning bolt, much like > Harry's scar. Any other thoughts? Hello. I've been a lurker for a long time and have only posted once, quite a long time ago with my theory that Ginny will be revealed to be an animagus (transforming to a cat). Wanted to put in my 2 cents on this cover, specifically the two hands bound by the gold rope thingie. I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned this, but as soon as I saw it, I was reminded of the end of GOF when Harry and Voldy are drawn together in that golden web, just before Cedric et.al. came out of Voldy's wand. I think that Harry is going to face Voldemort head on in this book and those two hands represent Harry and Voldemort. They already have a number of magical connections (sharing powers, viewing each others' thoughts, feeling each others' feelings, same wand cores, etc.). Perhaps there will be a showdown in this book, where Harry ultimately fails (perhaps Dumbledore dies here - Harry blames himself?), but manages to survive. This could leave him in a very dark place before his final battle in Book 7. Thoughts? Jenza From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 13 15:43:13 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:43:13 -0000 Subject: Who taught Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130618 Who taught Voldemort? Well there is only one person we know with certainty taught Voldemort, Albus Dumbledore; if he ever lost his job at Hogwarts I doubt if he'd place that fact prominently on his resume'. Eggplant From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 18:57:31 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:57:31 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: <20050613173738.10916.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130619 > Alla wrote earlier: your argument is that Sirius' death suits Dumbledore in essense because Harry will be a better person without Sirius and/or he will be simply safer with Sirius dead? Magda: > Yes to both. Dumbledore wouldn't have WANTED Sirius to die; he > doesn't want anyone to die. But let's just say that I don't think > he's blinded by grief. Alla wrote earlier: I would like to comment that essentially what Sirius wanted for Harry ( despite allhis emotional unstability) in OOP, turned out to be the right thing for Harry after all. Magda: So what? I mean really, why does this matter? There's a lot of things Sirius wanted for Harry - including that Harry be a substitute "bestest mate" for himself. Some things were good, some were bad. Alla: It matters ( IMO only of course) because you are arguing that Harry is better off without Sirius and that is the only reason why Dumbledore is not "blinded by grief". You are arguing that Dumbledore has no selfish, manipulative, Puppetmaster!Dumbledore reasons to be glad that Sirius dead. He is only glad because Harry will be better person with Sirius dead ( I hope I am not misstating your argument). So, if it is so, Dumbledore has no reason (IMO only) to be glad of Sirius' death IF Sirius indeed was a good father figure for Harry AND I am arguing that even when he was depressed ( and I don't think it is that easy to stop being depressed when you are stuck in the house which you run away from as a teenager, even if you would much prefer to do so), he knew often what is the best for Harry, SO he was not a bad father figure for him and if he got a chance to get better psychologically , he would have been a great father figure for Harry, IMO only. Now, if you were arguing that Sirius' death suits Dumbledore for selfish reasons, then indeed it would not have matter whether what Sirius wanted for Harry was good or bad for him. That is how I see the situation anyway. Alla wrote earlier: One more thing , about Sirius coming up with brilliant plan, which cost Lily and James their lives. I am sure that was raised before but from what little I know about Lily so far, I don't consider her to be stupid, rash or impulsive and she seemed to agree to that plan. Maybe there were some merits to it after all. Magda: What merits, precisely? Twelve dead muggles might disagree with that assessment. Lily wouldn't be the first wife who'd gone along with her husband's views. Alla: I am in agreement with what Nora wrote on this one, but I would like to add a brief comment. NO, I don't see Lily as going along with her husband's views, unless she was very much in agreement with them. After all, she showed unwillingness to go with James' views when they were still in school. I doubt that she somehow lost that capacity later in her life. Just my opinion, Alla. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 18:50:01 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:50:01 -0000 Subject: Old & New Predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130620 I was just looking at some old polls (before OoP), and I found some interesting stuff: only 3% predicted Sirius to die, while 45% thought it was Hagrid. Noone thought the DADA teacher would be evil, 6% thought that Dumbledore would get sacked. 24$ said Ron would get into the Quidditch team, and many other cool predictions, some completely wrong, some accurate enough. Where I'm trying to get is that even if we have a million predictions, odds are they will be wrong, so I want to add some completely ridiculous predictions, and maybe this way I'll get one right. 1- DD is the HBP 2- Draco and Luna SHIP 3- Pettigrew is a spy for DD 4- Snape is Harry's uncle 5- Gwarp becomes a Hogwarts teacher 6- Tonks marries Lupin, or at least they get together. 7- Percy is actually a spy for DD in the MoM Juli From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Jun 13 17:28:04 2005 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (Jazmyn Concolor) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:28:04 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts' Cave In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42ADC224.6000105@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130621 John Kearns wrote: >wizard-made, like the castle was built out over a part of the lake. >And I certainly always read it as though the stairs lead directly >into Hogwarts, though I was probably influenced by the movie (which >I saw before I ever picked up the book). And this doesn't make a >lot of sense with the maps we've seen or with the idea that Harry >and Hermione can walk around the lake several times (if my image was >correct, they'd also have to walk around the castle). >Depending on how many steps they walked, the cave might even be some >distance from the school. The tunnel was created by magic obviously and thus doesn't have to follow the muggle laws of physics. It could very well come out in another country or another planet if there was enough magic behind it...Passing through lakes, volcanos, anything at all... Use your imagination.. Jazmyn From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 19:10:12 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:10:12 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts' Cave In-Reply-To: <42ADC224.6000105@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jazmyn Concolor wrote: > John Kearns wrote: > >wizard-made, like the castle was built out over a part of the lake. > >And I certainly always read it as though the stairs lead directly > >into Hogwarts, though I was probably influenced by the movie (which > >I saw before I ever picked up the book). And this doesn't make a > >lot of sense with the maps we've seen or with the idea that Harry > >and Hermione can walk around the lake several times (if my image was > >correct, they'd also have to walk around the castle). > > >Depending on how many steps they walked, the cave might even be some > >distance from the school. > > > The tunnel was created by magic obviously and thus doesn't have to > follow the muggle laws of physics. > > It could very well come out in another country or another planet if > there was enough magic behind it...Passing through lakes, volcanos, > anything at all... Use your imagination.. > > Jazmyn You used the word "obviously" to say the cave was created by magic. What did you notice in canon that made it obvious? Julie From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 18:03:58 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP:Cover:Spolier In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050613180358.76302.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130623 --- stardancerofas wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > ********************* > > Of all the names I've seen being presented as the > possible 'older' man that 'Dumbledore' is holding hands with, I've > yet to see this name: Nicolas Flamel. Actually Nicolas Flammel is dead. JKR says so in her website (under FAQ). Juli From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Mon Jun 13 19:15:33 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:15:33 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: <20050612204039.11798.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > the live one was always in danger of coming up > with yet another brilliant plan like the one that cost James and Lily > their lives. That kind of initiative Dumbledore does NOT need this > time around. Actually it was a very good plan. The only problem was that the person the three of them trusted, just like he was trusted by the rest, including Dumbledore, was a traitor. If Peter had not been a traitor nothing would have gone wrong with this plan. That it did, was not Sirius' fault, nor James's nor Lily's. If you want to blame someone except Peter and LV for the deaths of Lily and James, why not blame Dumbledore, or any other member of the Order. All were taken in by Peter. Gerry From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Mon Jun 13 19:18:15 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:18:15 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: <20050613173738.10916.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130625 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > What merits, precisely? Twelve dead muggles might disagree with that > assessment. Those twelve were killed by Peter, the traitor. Again nothing to do with Sirius, who tried to catch him. Gerry From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 19:16:36 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:16:36 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130626 * * * * * S * P * O * I * L * E * R * * * * * Just like everyone else I've downloaded the Bloomsbury screen savers. Here goes what I think of them: The children's edition doesn't show much except what we've already discussed (the ring, which looks like a face to me with a torch; the Hands, DD and HP?). But the Adult Version is much more interesting: Firt we see a red glowing rock, which reminds me of the Philosopher's stone. Then 2 snakes engraved in a rock, possibly a door, I think it looks like one of the doors in CoS A small island made entirely of rocks with a castle. A cup that looks like the Goblet of Fire A big golden bird, which could be either a Phoenix or an Eagle A text book: Advanced Potion-Making, which I think means Harry will take Advanced Potions Juli From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Mon Jun 13 19:22:30 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:22:30 -0000 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130627 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Bellatrix (Dumbledore won't die til the last book) > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Hagrid (if not him, it's someone related to Sirius, since being a Black is practically royalty) > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) That she was once close with Petunia, who got very involved with the wizarding world (and we'll find out at least some of Petunia's secrets) > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character... someone that knew Lily or Sirius maybe? > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? In book 6? Let's go with Parvati Patil (Ginny won't be til the last book) > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All but divination > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Ron and Hermione will start dating (openly, if they've already been dating in secret) 2. Katie Bell will become quidditch captain (and Harry will be back on the team as seeker, with Ginny as chaser) 3. Percy will come crawling back to the Weasleys 4. Tonks will play a stronger role in Harry's life - she'll become a stronger sister/mother role model because she's an auror and a link to Sirius 5. Fred and George will join the Order of the Phoenix Rachael From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 19:53:07 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:53:07 -0000 Subject: poor Grangers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "larriepam2000" wrote: > "monika_zaboklicka" wrote: > > Don't you think that Mrs and Mr Granger are the most wronged > characters > > in entire series? These kind people brought up their girl well, > taught > > her to study, to be a decent person, to help those weaker that > herself > > And what did they get in return? They > > hardly see their darling, who shares her time between Hogwarts' and > > Weasley family, cuts short holidays with her devoted parents and > > experiments with her teeth against better advice of the two > dentists > > who love her dearly? > > > > > > You have to think like an only child, which Hermiome is. We crave the > family we never had. Hermione is an excellent example of the only child. > Book smart but lacking in any social skills what so ever, > understandable, who would she ever practice on? > > I disagree with the stereotype of an only child. Research does not support that only children lack in social skills compared to sibling children. The only factors that are indicated by research are that only children tend to score higher on IQ and achievement tests. Everything else is not significant. Actually, with Hermione being a muggle-born wizard and her parents BOTH being dentists, one can infer that she was in a school setting, either public or private, and nto home-schooled. Therefore, she would have had as much if not more practice with social skills than some kids born into wizard families. While canon may support her need for tact when she first arrived at Hogwarts, I see this as more personality characteristics than attributing this to her being an only child. Remember, JKR did originally intend for her to have a younger sister, and I would bet that her character development in the literary sense was already established. Julie From julwalker7614726 at aol.com Mon Jun 13 19:58:30 2005 From: julwalker7614726 at aol.com (ejom723) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:58:30 -0000 Subject: HBP Predictions contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130629 1. Next most major character to be killed. Percy or Bill 2. Who is the HBP? Most likely, a new character. 3. Lily's big secret. She doesn't have one. 4. New DADA teacher: Felix Felicis 5. Harry's romantic relationship. Luna. OOTP hinted at this. 6. New ministry of magic? Madame Bones 7. Bowl thing? The HBP's peinsieve which will be central to the storyline. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions. Unfortunately for him, yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions. Most certainly. 10. O.W.L.s Harry will recieve: 9 Five predictions: 1. Ron will finally kiss Hermione. 2. Sanpe will turn out to be married. 3. Neville will become a strong asset and friend to Harry, so much so that instead of a trio they will be a quartet. 4. Something big will be revealed about Tom Riddle, which could be a possible clue to his defeat in book 7. 5. Harry will make a friend out of someone he thought was his enemy. "ejom723" From anurim at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 20:36:08 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Old & New Predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050613203608.99375.qmail@web32613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130631 --- jlnbtr wrote: > Where I'm trying to get is that even if we have a > million > predictions, odds are they will be wrong, so I want > to add some > completely ridiculous predictions, and maybe this > way I'll get one > right. > > 1- DD is the HBP > 2- Draco and Luna SHIP > 3- Pettigrew is a spy for DD > 4- Snape is Harry's uncle > 5- Gwarp becomes a Hogwarts teacher > 6- Tonks marries Lupin, or at least they get > together. > 7- Percy is actually a spy for DD in the MoM These are not such ridiculous predictions in fact. Not that I believe they will happen, neither do I disbelieve it, but the idea that DD is the HBP has, I think, a lot of fans, and I don't find anything ludicrous about it. 2 might come true because Draco might need approval and validation from somebody closer to Harry, somebody outside his usual circle, and Luna is pure-hearted enough to be able to love even an apparently evil person; if it happens, however, I predict Luna will die in this book. We know that all pure-blooded families are related, so there is no reason why Severus and James would not be distant cousins, even if Snape is not pure-blooded but has one muggle parent (which is not necessarily unlikely). As for Percy, he is ambitious enough to like the part where he gets to act like a mistreated hero when all ends well :-) When it became known that one major character will die in OotP, I was pretty sure it was Sirius, because his name cannot be cleared in the present circumstances, therefore he would not add much to the story if he were alive. On similar grounds I predict now that Dumbledore will not die, although, as many people suggested, he might be taken ill for a large part of the story - incidentally, not the middle part as it has happened so far, but the end itself. Hermione couldn't help Harry in Book2, Hagrid was taken away in the same book, Ron was ill at the end of Book 3, McGo was not around for the big adventure at the MoM, I think it is time for Dumbledore to let Harry manage on his own to the end. But I don't think he will die. If I am to make one ridiculous prediction that I think might have chances to happen in Book 6, I will say that either the twins, or Fred only, or even Ron will be tempted to turn nasty. Percy never will, though. Percy fights for what is right, even if in a rather boring way. But I'd like to see Luna loving Draco and leaving him broken hearted and grown-up when he loses her. Poor Luna. There is a lot of potential for conflicts with romantic undertone, what with Viktor coming back and hormones pushing human Mandrakes to move in each other's pots and the centaurs saying that Harry is close to being an full-grown man, and all. There is a lot of space to explore this theme without getting all soapy-opera. Coming back to your predictions, I don't think it is unlikely that Peter spies for the Order either. Or at least for Lupin. Who, if will seem to be ESE, as suggested here and as I find very possible, will most definitely be revealed as a double-spy. Where does this leave Severus? In a place where we keep a very close watch on him, as Jo herself suggested. Mira __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 20:38:47 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:38:47 -0000 Subject: Portkeys: was Dis/Apparating 12 Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greenfirespike" wrote: > > > > bboyminn said: > > > > ... pondered why no one apparated into the Bank or into other > > businesses. If people can apparate, then they could enter and > > exit unseen and undetected as steal whatever they wanted. > > > > In light of this, and in light of the fact that most businesses > > are staying in business, Charms and Spell to prevent entry by > > stealth must be pretty common on all places. > > > > Greenfirespike says: > > Steve, if I remember correctly, you have previously mentioned your > fixation with magical transportation. ... does the existence of > Portkeys bother you? We know from OotP that you can use a Portkey > to move into/out of Hogwarts, as well as a magically guarded places > such as 12 Grimmuald Place. > > ..., only authorized persons can summon a Portkey. Which ... opened > .. several questions.... > 1) Is DD authorized to generate a Portkey? > 2) If not, then is there a way for the Ministry of magic to > recognize the illegal creation/use of one? > I am going to assume yes because there is Department of Magical > Transport, and I would hope they can identify an > illegal/unauthorized Portkey. > 3) Why doesn't LV, or any of the DE's use a Porkey (either create > one themselves, or control a Department of Magical Transport > employee to create one for them) to launch an attack in Hogwarts. > > At the very least, we know you can create a Portkey into the > Headmasters office in Hogwarts. And I can't think of a better place > to launch a surprise attack from inside Hogwarts. > > Ever wondering and rereading. > > Greenfirespike bboyminn: Oh yes, I have many many theories and ideas about Portkeys. My orginal theory is stated here - (actually re-stated) Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:54 pm Subject: Re: Turning Items to Portkeys http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52127 This post will take you to a list of links to several posts I made on Portkeys - Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:40 pm Subject: Portkeys - Curses foiled again http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/73735 While the details of my original theory were proven wrong, I still stand behind the underlying concept; Portkeys are difficult and dangerous. 1.) No Dumbledore, while fully capable and competent, is not authorized to create Portkeys. Notice how Fudge gets angry in the Atrium of the Ministry of Magic when Dumbledore creates the Portkey to send Harry back to Hogwarts. 2.) I believe that Ministry of Magic has ways of detecting the occurance of magic, but I have likened it to whether radar, it's intent is to detect magical 'storm' that might require intervention by the Accidental Magic Reversal Squad or the Obliviators. Remember that the primary goal of the Ministry is to keep the existance of magic hidden from muggles. That is the primary law enforcement goal. So while that have the capability of monitoring specific magic, as they do for Harry at Privet Drive, they simply can't do that for every square inch of the UK and for every single wizard in existance in the UK. It's not practical and it's not productive. So, to answer your question, unless the need for a specific individual case of monitoring arises, I don't think they are tracking every occurance of Portkey related magic. 3.) Keep in mind that Dumbledore controls Hogwart, therefore he controls all the protections around Hogwarts. He can create acceptions for his own convenience. We have seen both Portkey and Floo Powder entry into Dumbledore's office; Harry by Portkey, Dumbledore by Floo Poweder. But note that they both occur in Dumbledore's office. We have never seen any other wizard or witch enter or exit from Hogwarts by any magical means, nor have we seen this happen in any other Hogwarts location except the headmaster's office. So, again, Dumbledore controls the protections, and therefore, he controls the exceptions. General- While the details of my orignal Portkey theory were proven wrong, the underlying premise was that the Portkey enchantment is a dangerous and difficult task to perform. The spell itself is simple; 'Portus'. But think of what is behind that simple word. Don't think of the enchanting aspect, but instead of the programming aspect. The casting wizard's intent sets the many parameters of the Portkey; what triggers it, when and how does it activate, when and how does it deactivate, to what location does it go. That's a lot of complex data to hold in you thoughts, to hold in your magical intent, in that brief second when the spell is cast. If you get one small aspect of the programming wrong, I speculate it could be deadly and dangerous. We know that Apparation is dangerous. Mr. Weasley gave an example of a couple who 'splinched' themselves. They made an error in magical intent and programming calculation in the brief moment before they Apparated and they payed a dear price for it. The Portkey in my view, is merely a variation, perhaps a magical precursor or predecessor to Apparation. The difference is, the magical intent and magical programming occur in the instant that you create the device, whereas, in Apparation, they occur at the instant you travel. So, Apparation is dangerous, because getting the detail parameters right is difficult, and the results of getting them wrong is deadly and dangerous. Therefore, Apparation must be licensed to assure that the people who are doing it are safely capable of the task. Portkey are a less sophisticated form of magic. But they are still difficult and dangerous; and given the level of Ministry control, we must assume this is true in the extreme. So much so that the average person can't be trusted with it. So, only Ministry Authorized wizard are allowed to perform the charm. Since wizards have other magical mean of transportation, the Ministry sees no reason to make this magical techinology available to the 'common folk'. That's a quick overveiw. If you follow the other link shown above, you will find several deep and long discussion on Portkeys and the general nature of magical transportation. Random, hardly related notes- My deep interest in magical transportation comes from a plan I have for a fanfic in which Harry, in conjuction with some other people, produces and sells through Weasley Enterprises a magical Port-Pager. It is a combination Programmable Portkey and Summoning Device (pager). To write this effectively, I have to know the nature, and more importantly the limits, of magical transportation. To further complicate matters, Harry invents the 'Fly-Board', which is a wizards equivalent of a 'skateboard'; it's a foot board that flys. So, to resolve all the parameters of these devices, I have been obssessed with trying to figur out magical transportation. JKR has said that these means of magical transportation have very definite limits. I just wish she would say exactly what they are. The editors of The Leaky Cauldron and Mugglenet are having a private Q&A with JKR, and I submitted a question about the limits of magical transportation. I hope she answers it, it will save me a few sleepless nights. Just rambling. Steve/bboyminn From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 20:44:44 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050613204444.40295.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130633 > Nora: > >The original merits would have been avoiding the obvious (Sirius) >and thus (hopefully) gaining some more security in what were >apparently very difficult times. Of course it goes badly wrong, but >James and Lily agree to doing it, with three parties being fooled >badly by the fourth. We don't know anything more about the scenario. > Gerry: > Actually it was a very good plan. The only problem was that the > person the three of them trusted, just like he was trusted by the > rest, including Dumbledore, was a traitor. If Peter had not been a > traitor nothing would have gone wrong with this plan. That it did, > was not Sirius' fault, nor James's nor Lily's. If you want to blame > someone except Peter and LV for the deaths of Lily and James, why > not blame Dumbledore, or any other member of the Order. All were > taken in by Peter. The Peter-as-SK plan was not a good one. I'm curious as to why everyone thinks it was. The fidelius charm was not designed for long-term protection; if the Potters were really going into hiding for as long as it took for Voldemort to be defeated, then they had to be realistic enough to know that it might take years. Relying on a weak reed like Peter was not a good idea for longer than a few days. Let us say that Peter wasn't a traitor, that he was what James and Sirius thought he was: "weak, talentless" (Sirius), needed all the help he could get (Lupin). Is this a person who's going to stand up to anyone who might be willing to use violence to find out where the Potters were hiding or how they were able to hide? (Assuming that the DE's didn't know about the fidelius charm.) So the only way it would work would be if Peter himself went into deep hiding for an extended period of time. Now James Potter had enough funds that he didn't have to work (according to JKR) so being cooped up with wife and child in a house in a small village might seem quite cozy. Are we sure that Peter had the same resources? Could Peter live without going to a 9-5 job? Probably not. And what about Remus? If he was the spy that Sirius (and presumably James) thought he was, wouldn't he tell the DE's that Peter was the weak link if they wanted to find out where the Potters were hiding? And if they couldn't find a sign of the Potters, wouldn't Remus be able to tell them where Peter was likely to be hiding? There were a lot more things wrong with this plot than Peter being a traitor. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org Mon Jun 13 12:55:03 2005 From: brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org (Wilson, Bruce) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:55:03 -0400 Subject: Entertainment in the WW Message-ID: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C56C6@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> No: HPFGUIDX 130634 Tamara wrote: > Does fiction not exist in the magically world? Or is it there, > but Harry is just too busy for it, or feels his life is already > enough like a novel that he doesn't need to read? Absence of proof is not the same thing as proof of absence. But I think that things like fiction don't exist in the wizardling world, as the writing of fiction is as close as we muggles can get to magic. (See JRRT 'On Fairy Stories'.) "Bruce" From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 20:59:05 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:59:05 -0000 Subject: Who taught Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130635 Eggplant wrote: > Who taught Voldemort? Well there is only one person we know with > certainty taught Voldemort, Albus Dumbledore; if he ever lost his job > at Hogwarts I doubt if he'd place that fact prominently on his resume'. > > Eggplant Why not? As Ollivander pointed out: "After all, He- Who-Must-Not-Be- Named did great things -- terrible, yes, but great". If he indeed leaned a lot from Dumbledore, there will be no shortage of those who would want to benefit from his expertise, I would imagine. a_svirn From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 20:58:43 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:58:43 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130636 >>Alla: >So, if it is so, Dumbledore has no reason (IMO only) to be glad of Sirius' death IF Sirius indeed was a good father figure for Harry AND I am arguing that even when he was depressed ( and I don't think it is that easy to stop being depressed when you are stuck in the house which you run away from as a teenager, even if you would much prefer to do so), he knew often what is the best for Harry, SO he was not a bad father figure for him and if he got a chance to get better psychologically , he would have been a great father figure for Harry, IMO only.< Betsy Hp: I'd agree with Sirius being a good father figure in GoF. Maybe even in the beginning of OotP. But by the end of OotP Sirius shows himself to be horribly lacking. First there's Sirius' strangely lack-luster response to Harry's confessed fear that he might be going mad. Harry is desperate to talk to Sirius. He's obviously incredibly upset about *being* the snake, and what does Sirius do? He blames Harry's fears on shock and lack of sleep, tells him not to worry, pats him on the shoulder and leaves Harry standing there. (OotP scholastic hardback p.481) The whole scene struck me as weird. It's not like Sirius has anywhere he has to be. Why did he blow Harry off like that? It certainly left Harry in a frightened and confused state. And in GoF and even earlier in OotP Sirius had seemed much more willing to talk to Harry, discuss things with him. What's changed? Then there's that scene where Sirius tells Harry that he's not as brave or funloving as his father (I can't find it for the life of me and so can't recall if this is before or after the "I think I'm crazy!" Really? Got to go!" scene). And that struck me as horribly cruel. I imagine (from her portrait) that Mrs. Black was emotionally abusive, and it seems that Sirius picked up a few of his mother's tricks. And again, I'm not sure why Sirius, who had been so loving towards Harry previously, would suddenly turn so cruel. And of course there was the whole undermining of the Occlumency lessons before they even got started bit. Rereading the scene Sirius is the first to attack Snape. "I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house you see."(ibid p.518) All Snape had done was tell Harry to sit down. Nothing overly extreme. And remember, this is soon after Harry has told Sirius that he's afraid he's going mad. Why would Sirius sabatoge the very lessons that could help his godson? The downward spiral of Sirius is strange to me. Yes, the house holds bad memories, but why does he seem to get worse as time goes by? There were hints of darkness in GoF (his advice to maim the dragon for example) but Sirius seems to be retrograding back to Shrieking Shack!Sirius instead of slowly getting better. And unfortunantely Harry seems to bare the brunt of Sirius' emotional breakdown. I've read some theories: Sirius is being drugged (I think I read that on this list - don't remember the post though); he's slipping into alcoholism (http://www.redhen- publications.com/MansBestFriend.html). I personally like the alcoholic!Sirius read. (It adds the interesting twist that Sirius may have been a bit drunk when he rushed off to the MoM, and that's why Bella so easily dispatched him.) I still doubt that Dumbledore is either relieved or chortling over how well his plan came together regarding Sirius' death. But I do think that his influence, especially as the book went on, was not a good one for Harry. In the end Harry was acting more like a parent towards Sirius than Sirius was towards Harry. That's never a good situation for a child to find themselves in, and for someone under as much stress as Harry is, it's got disaster written all over it. And seeing how it all ended with Sirius' death, I'd say the disaster occured. Betsy Hp From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 21:21:27 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050613212127.56830.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130637 --- horridporrid03 wrote: > I still doubt that Dumbledore is either relieved or chortling over > how well his plan came together regarding Sirius' death. But I do > think that his influence, especially as the book went on, was not a > good one for Harry. In the end Harry was acting more like a parent > towards Sirius than Sirius was towards Harry. That's never a good > situation for a child to find themselves in, and for someone under > as much stress as Harry is, it's got disaster written all over it. > And seeing how it all ended with Sirius' death, I'd say the > disaster occured. Harry was rapidly outgrowing Sirius, who'd always been the embodiment of a wonderful post-Hogwarts, non-Dursley future rather than an active part of the present for Harry. Harry wants Sirius to stay safe so they can have a future together; it's what Harry is looking forward to and most wants. There's a lot of canon evidence that he found the present Sirius hard to approach. In OOTP he stays with Mrs. Weasley de-doxying drapes rather than glom onto his godfather, he rarely has any private time with him without Ron and Hermione being there, and I can think of only one time when he and Sirius actually had quality time together: in GOF when he tells Sirius about fighting with Ron and the dragon task as they floo in the fireplace together. Sirius' death means that Harry has had this wonderful future snatched away and his options have narrowed again to (apparently) kill or be killed by Voldemort. Voldemort is responsible for Harry's lack of choices and options in his life, the removal of all other possible outcomes. It heightens the dramatic tension leading up to the Final Confrontation. Harry was closest to Sirius the farther away the actual man was and the harder the man was to talk to. Harry's struggles to communicate with his godfather were most impressive until you consider that when he was in the same house with him Harry seemed to prefer to do almost anything else except talk to him. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eileennicholson at aol.com Mon Jun 13 20:49:17 2005 From: eileennicholson at aol.com (eileennicholson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:49:17 EDT Subject: Dumbledore the Strategist Message-ID: <1eb.3cf3e1cb.2fdf4b4d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130638 >Betsy Hp: >snip< >Dumbledore himself can do nothing or he will be under immediate suspicion. For Sirius to be rescued he *had* to act quickly. Harry and Hermione were his only options, IMO.< Eileen: I just thought that since he had Sirius with him in the castle, he could have done something very simple, such as hiding him somewhere or sending him off somewhere by magical means, and just leaving the 'prison' door open. It would just add another strand to Sirius' reputation for escaping. Using the time turner seemed unnecessarily complex if the purpose was just to save Sirius. Why would Dumbledore be immediately under suspicion? He provided (at least some of) the evidence that sent Sirius to Azkaban in the first place (and - guessing here - I imagine he tipped Fudge off about Sirius' whereabouts after Godric's Hollow). The only one who might give him away is Snape, and although Snape is really mad at him, I'm sure Dumbledore knows he wouldn't do so. >Betsy Hp: >snip< >I do take issue with the idea that Dumbledore cared little if Sirius lived or died. Dumbledore, while a very clever and stratigic thinker, has always struck me as someone with a heart. I believe he was horrified to realize that Sirius had been innocent this entire time, especially since his testimony helped send Sirius away. And so I think the rescue of Sirius was definitely an important part of Dumbledore's goal when he sent Harry and Hermione off on their adventure.< Eileen: Having Harry save Sirius would be much better from Dumbledore's point of view than doing it himself, I agree; it fits in with his plans for Harry. Was Dumbledore convinced of Sirius' innocence? I think he probably was, but I'm not sure...did he want to save Sirius from the Dementors? Yes, I don't think Dumbledore would wish that fate on anyone. >Betsy Hp: >snip< >I agree with Michael that Harry's presence very nearly screwed the entire plan. Where I disagree with Michael is how quickly Quirrell was suspected. I think *Death Eater* activity was suspected (hence having Hagrid fetch the Stone to Hogwarts), but I think Dumbledore didn't realize it was Quirrell until Snape cottoned on to him after the troll incident. Since Quirrell was so young (and presumably not a Death Eater before his world tour) I'm sure they (Snape and Dumbledore) suspected an older more powerful Death Eater working behind him. I think the obstacles and the mirror were a very cleverly set up trap, and Harry was *never* supposed to be involved.< Eileen: He would have been confident of catching Quirrell in the trap...but he didn't need to, did he, as he already knew Quirrell was involved. Presumably he was out to catch the older more powerful Death Eater as well, and there was always the chance that this might turn out to be Voldemort...how did he think he might achieve this? This post was returned to me for snipping, so I had a chance to think a bit more about it. ;-) When Dumbledore set up the Mirror of Erised, he knew that Harry understood its secret, didn't he? The information about the Devil's Snare had already been taught to the first years, Harry and Ron should really have remembered it themselves. They'd already defeated a troll. Harry would be the ideal choice if you were looking for someone to catch a flying key from a broomstick. Hagrid was known for letting information slip out, and he was seeing Harry outside lessons, perhaps encouraged by Dumbledore? Ron had demonstrated his skills at Wizard's Chess. Hermione had proved to be good at logic, plus we don't know whether there was actually any poison in the potion bottles. And Dumbledore had provided Harry with the invisibility cloak. I think there are some reasonable grounds here for considering that Dumbledore might have thought the three friends would get involved. >Betsy Hp: >Again, I agree with the Prophecy being bait in a trap, just like the Stone in PS/SS. However I do disagree with the thought of Dumbledore being so cold blooded. Yes, the losses the Order endured were small; Sirius was their weakest member. But I think Dumbledore highly regrets his loss. >snip< Eileen: I guess I'm just thinking back to the way it used to be - Voldemort in power and seemingly unstoppable. Order members being picked off one by one. Dumbledore needing to find a weak link in Voldemort's armour. And he finds one - the prophecy. Perfect! If it hadn't existed, he'd have needed to invent it. And it gave him the opportunity to introduce a flaw into Voldemort's game plan, the fear and uncertainty of what Harry might do or become. And to achieve this, Dumbledore was prepared to put Harry through living with the Dursleys - and that seems to me to be rather cold-blooded.(I'm letting the personal element creep in here; I worked in Local Authority Children's Homes for a while and saw a lot of examples of the damage done.) And I don't think having Sirius as Harry's guardian would have suited Dumbledore at all, either after Godric's Hollow or after Azkaban. I'd be really pleased to be convinced about Dumbledore's good intentions, so help me out here if you can, but I'm a bit concerned that he thinks sometimes the end justifies the means....... Eileen Nicholson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org Mon Jun 13 19:00:35 2005 From: brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org (Wilson, Bruce) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:00:35 -0400 Subject: HBP contest: Message-ID: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C56D5@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> No: HPFGUIDX 130639 Devika: > Crawling out of a deep and long lurkdom... :) > > 5. As the closest thing to a descendent that Sirius had, Harry > will inherit Number 12, Grimmauld Place. [Wilson, Bruce]: Unless it is entailed, or Sirius died intestate, in which it will go to his next-of-(blood)-kin. Of course, if nobody can be located or if the person doesn't want it, Harry (through guardian-ad-empiendo appointed for him, probably Mr. Weasley, could buy it.) From Cyrna at europe.de Mon Jun 13 21:11:54 2005 From: Cyrna at europe.de (Danny) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:11:54 +0200 Subject: AW: [HPforGrownups] Old & New Predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c5705c$87ee9830$0b01a8c0@dannypc> No: HPFGUIDX 130640 jlnbtr wrote: >1- DD is the HBP >2- Draco and Luna SHIP >3- Pettigrew is a spy for DD >4- Snape is Harry's uncle >5- Gwarp becomes a Hogwarts teacher >6- Tonks marries Lupin, or at least they get together. >7- Percy is actually a spy for DD in the MoM *Not *really *spoiler *but *just *to *be *on *the *cautious *side Another weird one: Snape owns Hogwarts, that's the reason he's still teaching there and he still can sow fear in the hearts of most potions students and is not really reproved for his teaching manners. That's also the reason why he can't stand Harry (or James) because that's the other side who would/could inherit it. So the two hands on the cover is the accreditation of Hogwarts (from Snape) that Harry can inherit it. The ring would be the magic key to open the chamber where the pensieve stands in the water (no I don't think the round stone thing on which it stands has anything to do with Necromancy it has more to do with masonry, not enough circles and wriggles and such) it's located somewere behind Salazar's Head in the Chamber of Secrets. (walk through the Head and then row some). Danny (who is feeling quite silly tonight) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 21:36:37 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:36:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130641 > Betsy Hp: > I'd agree with Sirius being a good father figure in GoF. Maybe even > in the beginning of OotP. But by the end of OotP Sirius shows > himself to be horribly lacking. > The downward spiral of Sirius is strange to me. Yes, the house > holds bad memories, but why does he seem to get worse as time goes > by? There were hints of darkness in GoF (his advice to maim the > dragon for example) but Sirius seems to be retrograding back to > Shrieking Shack!Sirius instead of slowly getting better. And > unfortunantely Harry seems to bare the brunt of Sirius' emotional > breakdown. Alla: It is clear that we are on the diametrally opposed side of the spectrum on this topic, but I just want to make couple brief comments. I am not arguing that Sirius was exemplary Godfather, but I am saying that he had a potential, which as you said he shows in GoF to be a really good one. Yes, I DO blame a lot of his mistakes in OOP on his depression. I am not sure why it is so strange for you. IMO this house holds not only bad memories, but horrible memories for Sirius, since he run away from home and never looked back. I found his spiral to be perfectly logical and understandable without drugs or alcoholism ( I really would like to see more canon evidence on this one, actually. NO, not the sign of Sirius being drunk once, but the signs of him being an alcoholic). And, yes, I cannot help but going back to Dumbledore absolute inability of deal with the psychological issues of the people he deals with. I cannot stand Puppetmaster!Dumbledore. I don't think that Dumbledore is a puppetmaster, but I do think that he is in bad need of taking psychology 101 course or something like that. To put the man who craves action in that house, was , IMO, very stupid thing to do. Yes, he probably wanted to save Sirius' life, but I really think that he had more chances of helping him to stay alive if he would find something to do for him. Again, as we saw in GoF, Sirius was perfectly capable of staying safe and not visible to authorities when he was needed by Harry. Oh, and I also do not think that Sirius "confused" Harry and James that much. Sure he was looking for some James in Harry. I think it is perfectly understandable to try and look for some qualities of the parent in the child, especially when parent was your best friend and was cruelly taken away from you. But I think that Sirius loved Harry as Harry too. As JKR said "Sirius loved James like brother and transferred that affection to his son" (paraphrase), which she also calls Sirius' greatest redeeming quality. I don't think Harry has nearly enough of that in his life and would a have benefitted greatly from it. Just my opinion, Alla. From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jun 13 21:56:43 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:56:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001d01c57062$ca813b20$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130642 Alla: It is clear that we are on the diametrally opposed side of the spectrum on this topic, but I just want to make couple brief comments. I am not arguing that Sirius was exemplary Godfather, but I am saying that he had a potential, which as you said he shows in GoF to be a really good one. Yes, I DO blame a lot of his mistakes in OOP on his depression. I am not sure why it is so strange for you. IMO this house holds not only bad memories, but horrible memories for Sirius, since he run away from home and never looked back. I found his spiral to be perfectly logical and understandable without drugs or alcoholism ( I really would like to see more canon evidence on this one, actually. NO, not the sign of Sirius being drunk once, but the signs of him being an alcoholic). And, yes, I cannot help but going back to Dumbledore absolute inability of deal with the psychological issues of the people he deals with. I cannot stand Puppetmaster!Dumbledore. I don't think that Dumbledore is a puppetmaster, but I do think that he is in bad need of taking psychology 101 course or something like that. To put the man who craves action in that house, was , IMO, very stupid thing to do. Yes, he probably wanted to save Sirius' life, but I really think that he had more chances of helping him to stay alive if he would find something to do for him. Again, as we saw in GoF, Sirius was perfectly capable of staying safe and not visible to authorities when he was needed by Harry. Oh, and I also do not think that Sirius "confused" Harry and James that much. Sure he was looking for some James in Harry. I think it is perfectly understandable to try and look for some qualities of the parent in the child, especially when parent was your best friend and was cruelly taken away from you. But I think that Sirius loved Harry as Harry too. As JKR said "Sirius loved James like brother and transferred that affection to his son" (paraphrase), which she also calls Sirius' greatest redeeming quality. I don't think Harry has nearly enough of that in his life and would a have benefitted greatly from it. Sherry now: Alla, of course you know I agree with you. I think it's easy to forget the trauma of Sirius life, not just being cooped up in that hateful house, but the years and years before. He could even have been suffering from a form of post traumatic stress disorder, and easily could have been clinically depressed. As for Harry not spending much time with him during the stay in Grimauld place, that actually felt natural. He seemed secure in his knowledge that Sirius was there, and so he could easily have fun with his friends. As for whether or not Sirius was a good father, well, he was the father figure Harry wanted and loved. My dad was not a great father. He divorced several times. He detached himself from his children, starting when each of his daughter turned 13, but also spreading to his sons. Yet, we all loved him, wanted him and hoped for a closer relationship with him. The outside world would have judged him harshly, but we did not. Six years before his death, he finally grew up and reached out to his kids, all of whom were adults by then, and most of them with kids of their own. He worked hard to get close to us. We could have scorned him, but we were all ready and eager to have a close relationship with him. I imagine Harry feeling like that. to us, to people like Molly, maybe, Sirius is not an ideal father, but he and Harry loved each other. If circumstances had allowed the dream of being able to have a home together, Sirius could have grown into a great father. There's no doubt Harry would have been loved, and that Sirius would have gone to great lengths to care for him and protect him. It's probably the hardest thing for me to accept in all the books, that Harry had to lose the one person he needed so much! Sherry From brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org Mon Jun 13 12:43:00 2005 From: brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org (Wilson, Bruce) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:43:00 -0400 Subject: Occlumency and Spies (Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison...) Message-ID: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C56BE@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> No: HPFGUIDX 130643 Betsy Hp: > Well, you brought up A.S. Byatt and she complained that JKR's > magic wasn't numinous enough, that it was too mundane. [Wilson, Bruce]: I think that Byatt's objection to JKR is motivated by jealousy. Byatt's novels are regarded as 'better literature' by the cognoscetti, but JKR us much more successful--and wealthy. (Richer than the Queen, last I heard.) From brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org Mon Jun 13 17:42:58 2005 From: brucewilson at mail.courtswv.org (Wilson, Bruce) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:42:58 -0400 Subject: Who taught Voldemort? Message-ID: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C56D2@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> No: HPFGUIDX 130644 GFS / greenfirespike: > But is seems to me that Grindelwald was defeated about the > time TR graduates from Hogwarts (thanks to the Lexicon > timeline). Thus making a tutoring by Grindelwald unlikely. [Wilson, Bruce]: Perhaps not all of Grindelwald's disciples/supporters/lieutenants were caught/killed; perhaps TR took up with one of them. Admin Note: Will the author of this post, , please contact the list elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space) at his/her earliest convenience, please? Thanks! From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 13 22:47:32 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:47:32 -0000 Subject: Death, rings and spoilery things Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130645 I know this is a really obvious speculation based on previous discussions, I have been connecting together this quotation from OoP (thanks to "seusilva"): "Several times Kreacher sidled into the room and attempted to smuggle things away under his loincloth, muttering horrible curses every time they caught him at it. When Sirius wrested a large golden ring bearing the Black crest from his grip, Kreacher actually burst into furious tears and left the room sobbing under his breath and calling Sirius names Harry had never heard before. "'It was my father's,' said Sirius, throwing the ring into the sack. 'Kreacher wasn't quite as devoted to him as to my mother, but 1 still caught him snogging a pair of my father's old trousers last week.' " And JKR's response to a question in the World Book Day chat: "Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out." Also from Canadian Broadcasting Co Q&A, 2000: "There are reasons for the deaths in each case, in terms of the story. So that's why I'm doing it." And S P O I L E R the ring on the cover of HBP makes me think a number of things. 1) something very important to the *plot* is gained from Sirius' death ? and I really don't think he died just to teach Harry an important life lesson ? after all, he already knows that loved ones can be taken away 2) the ring is something relevant to the plot of HBP 3) Sirius had a ring ? but it looks like he threw it away ? but JKR saw fit to mention how particularly upset Kreacher was about this. 4) Sometimes JKR mentions little things in passing that turn out to be important (remember the bug in GoF?) Let's, for fun, assume that the Black family ring was never thrown away ? Kreacher took it back somehow. After all, in chapter 23, the trio look into Kreacher's den: "In a far corner glinted small objects and coins that Harry guessed Kreacher had saved, magpie-like, from Sirius's purge of the house." One of these things could possibly be a ring. Is this a cunningly hidden clue? Or am I not-so-much reading between the lines as going off the rails? I'm going to go with `Crazy Sensible' (those Honda ads really sum up my feelings on HP4GUs!) Now, given that Sirius is dead, we don't know what will happen to 12 Grimmauld Place, its contents and Kreacher (actually I can't remember if this part is true ? did Kreacher run away permanently?). The likely inheritance candidates (IIRC) are Sirius's cousins (his closest relatives) Bellatrix Lestrange, Narcissa Malfoy and Andromeda Tonks or his friends Harry, Lupin or the Order of the Phoenix itself. The main thing is that /because/ Sirius had died, the ring will change hands, Hence we have a possible reason that he had to die: to set off events in HBP. So I propose two scenarios: Scenario A ? Good Guys The (good) person who inherits the house plays with the ring and finds out something magical about it, setting off a chain of events in the book Scenario B ? Bad Guys The bad guys will recognise the ring's hidden power and use it, setting off a chain of events in the book Any thoughts? I'm still trying to reach a conclusion on what the chain of events may be... JLV xx From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 23:00:59 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: <001d01c57062$ca813b20$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <20050613230100.26174.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130646 > Alla: > > As JKR said "Sirius loved James like brother and transferred that > affection to his son" (paraphrase), which she also calls Sirius' > greatest redeeming quality. > > I don't think Harry has nearly enough of that in his life and would > a have benefitted greatly from it. > > > Sherry now: > > I imagine Harry feeling like that. to us, to people like Molly, > maybe, Sirius is not an ideal father, but he and Harry loved each > other. If circumstances had allowed the dream of being > able to have a home together, Sirius could have grown into a great > father. There's no doubt Harry would have been loved, and that > Sirius would have > gone to great lengths to care for him and protect him. The personal tragedy of Sirius Black was that he was not the man that Harry needed; he was the man that Harry convinced himself he needed. Sirius was lacking in many important ways and Harry was the one who was the caretaker in the relationship. Sirius would not have grown into a great father; he wasn't mature enough for it, had never gone through whatever personal fire James had gone through so that he grew up enough to cause Lily to love him. Sirius was an adult-boy, someone whose pack instincts lead him to a my-friends-right-or-wrong outlook. As JKR said, he was good on the abstract principles but didn't always transfer it to the daily realities. If he liked you, he'd crawl over broken glass for you; if he didn't like you, well, you'd better not be someone he had any control over. Sirius was a tragedy of unfulfilled potential, unfulfilled largely due to his own weaknesses. Harry needs much more than to be loved; he needs guidance and Sirius could not provide it. Magda __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 23:10:35 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:10:35 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: <20050613230100.26174.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130647 Magda: > Sirius would not have grown into a great father; he wasn't mature > enough for it, had never gone through whatever personal fire James > had gone through so that he grew up enough to cause Lily to love him. Alla: OK, I will concede that the first part fo your sentence is strictly the matter of opinion. I say he would have, you say he would ahve not and I guess we simply have to agree to disagree. But I am really curious as how do you know that Sirius had never gone through personal trials. As far as I remember we do not know much about their pre Azkaban life, no matter how short it was, we also know very little about their school life and war does cause people to mature fast, IMO. Magda: Harry needs much more than to be loved; > he needs guidance and Sirius could not provide it. Alla: I disagree of course. There are SO many people starting with Dumbledore who attempt to provide Harry with gudance. There are SO few adults who attempt to love Harry for himself. I wish he would have such person in his life and NO, Dumbledore's declaration of love was not impressive much for me. Maybe Remus will step up to the plate Just me of course, Alla. From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 23:34:12 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:34:12 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- email entry to Tiger, too Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130648 In addition to posting your HBP prediction contest entry on the newsgroup, you *must* *email* your entry to *tigerpatronus* *at* *yahoo* *dot* *com.* If you don't email it, you aren't entered. You will receive an email confirmation when your entry is received and logged. TK -- TigerPatronus From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 23:30:26 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050613233026.96346.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130649 Alla wrote: ...edited... There are SO few adults who attempt to love Harry for himself. I wish he would have such person in his life. Maybe Remus will step up to the plate Juli now: I agree with you Alla in most of your message (which I snipped a lot), but I don't think Remus could take the place as Harry's "father", I mean, he doesn't even call him by his first name, to Harry Remus is always Professor Lupin my ex-DADA teacher, not Remus my "uncle". Others may try to fill Sirius' shoes, but he will never be replaced, he was the first adult who truly understood him, who was always there for him, Molly could do it, also Tonks, Remus or whoever, BUT none of them are his Godfather. Sirius was a good guide for Harry, HArry listened to him, and valued his opinion above everyone else's. Sirius was a father to Harry, and he knew it. Juli __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 13 23:20:47 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050613232047.32818.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130650 > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > S > > * > > P > > * > > O > > * > > I > > * > > L > > * > > E > > * > > R > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > > >> James : It's funny though, isn't it? Why would Harry get such an old tattered copy of Advanced Potion-Making? He always buys his books new. I think harry will definitely be in Advanced Potions, but what if showing the book means he will do some sort of ancient (hence the old tattered book) spell, perhaps with Dumbledore I like this idea, Dumbledore teaches Harry some ancient magic (perhaps something like the death sacrifice Lily gave Harry), then this way he could finally defeat LV, but if DD is the teacher, then why is the book called "Advanced potion-making"? we know DD is THE transfiguration master while Snape in the Potions master (according to a chapter title in PS/SS), so what if Severus and Harry finally make some peace and understand and respect each other? then Snape could teach Harry all about potions, not only the NEWT class, but even more. Juli __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html From tab1669 at elnet.com Tue Jun 14 01:49:23 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:49:23 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130651 I was just re reading the third book and I was thinking how it shows all of Hogwarts. After Harry and Hermione use the time turner and are just sitting and waiting to rescue Black. Woudn't the Marader's Map show them on the map. If the invisibility cloak can be detected so can time travel. both Lupin and Snape saw the map. Flyimgmonkeypurple From prncssme at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 02:13:32 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:13:32 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: <20050613233026.96346.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130652 > Sirius was a good guide for > Harry, HArry listened to him, and valued his opinion > above everyone else's. Sirius was a father to Harry, > and he knew it. > > Juli > Princess Sara: I can see both sides of this argument but I think you're going a bit far in saying that Sirius was a good guide for Harry. Yes, Harry listened to him but Sirius' example was not necessarily a good one. Take for instance the scene at Grimmauld Place when Snape's there to inform Harry of his forthcoming Occlumency lessons: Snape calls Sirius a coward, which makes Sirius fly off the handle. When Harry tries to get them to act like reasonable adults, Sirius yells for him to get out of it! There are many other canon examples of Sirius giving Harry bad advice and/or steering him in the wrong direction. Sirius becomes angry with Harry when Harry expresses the very reasonable concern that certain activities could get Sirius caught. Sirius frequently shows a complete disregard for the kind of common sense that is essential in an effective father figure. I also don't think that Sirius WAS a father figure to Harry, especially in OotP. Instead, he acts more like a morose, brooding older brother. Sirius' attempts to guilt/mold Harry into being James and not fatherly in the slightest, as they are borne of a very adolescent and selfish need to reclaim his past. JKR has said that Lily and James were about 22 when they died which means that Sirius was the same age when he went to Azkaban. When did he ever have a chance to mature in a healthy enough way to be a father to anyone? Certainly not in the 12 years he spent plotting revenge on Pettigrew. So, did Harry need Sirius? Yes. Sirius is/was a very tangible connection to James and Lily and as someone else pointed out, the embodiment of a bright, sparkly, Dursley-free future for Harry. And he did love Harry very much. His loss will greatly effect Harry, for good or ill, and will force him to mature in way that his godfather never really did. However, I think that saying Sirius was a good guide and/or role model is seriously problematic. He may have become a good father figure if he'd lived to see his name cleared but that is purely speculation. -Princess Sara From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 03:30:36 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 03:30:36 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--The Spy (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130653 > Pippin: > With this part of the theory we move to firmer ground. Neri: Indeed. Since we know so little about The Prank, it is possible to invent anything and almost nothing can be contradicted. But here we have considerably more details, so building an alternative story that actually works becomes harder. > Pippin: > But Peter was the secret-keeper and betrayed the secret, > doesn't that make him the spy? Well, no, it doesn't. > The spy is linked to Voldemort's second in command Neri: I have always took the "Voldemort's second-in-command" to be a complete fabrication, a typical Daily Prophet catch phrase. I wouldn't be surprised if it was coined by Rita Skeeter's quick-quote quill. It is only said in regard to Sirius, with the obvious author's intention to make him the big bad red herring in the beginning of PoA, and only by characters that knew nothing about the truth: Fudge and (for haven's sake) Stun Shunpike. The idea that a fresh student out of Hogwarts would become Voldemort's second-in-command in just one year sounds pretty absurd anyway, especially if he's a spy. Since when are spies made second-in-command? A second-in-command sits at HQ so he can, well, command, and the others should know him so they would, well, take his commands. But which DEs knew ESE!Lupin, and that he's the Big Boss' second-in-command? Karkaroff apparently didn't know. Snape didn't know either. He may have suspected, but apparently not enough to tell Dumbledore, and even in the Shack he only accused Lupin with helping Sirius, not with being a spy. So who did know? Bellatrix? Lucius? Frankly, do you see Lucius Malfoy takings orders from a poor Gryffindor in shabby robes, a person who is only a year in the DE organization, 5 yrs his junior, and a werewolf to boot? Can you see Bella I-learned-the-Dark-Arts-from-the-Dark-Lord-himself taking orders from "a filthy half-blood"? > Pippin: > The only evidence against Peter as the spy is the > confession that CAPSLOCK!Sirius bullied out of him Neri: Sirius was 11 long years in Azkaban with many DEs, which he heard talking and screaming in their sleep. During all this time, why hadn't he managed to discover the simple "fact" that the traitor and the spy were two different people? He knew Peter was the traitor, but he wasn't close to the possibility that Lupin was the spy, since he had suspected it himself for some time. How come he wasn't even suspecting it anymore? In the Shack Sirius says the DEs think that Peter is dead, and they think that "the double-crosser double-crossed them". Why would they think that Peter is a "double-crosser"? If they captured him only a week before GH and bullied him to reveal the secret, and then their boss got vaporized in GH, they can hardly blame Peter that he's a "double crosser" who "double-crossed" them. They had bullied and forced this information out of him. But most of all, why weren't they saying anything about the spy who had led them to Peter? The one who should have warned them about the trap lurking in GH? The one who's still *alive*, the one who had escaped Azkaban completely. Why isn't *he* a double-crosser? Why weren't the DEs in Azkaban screaming in their sleep "it's the damn werewolf! We should have never trusted a werewolf! He betrayed us all to this hell while he's out there laughing at us!" Neri From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 14 04:08:37 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:08:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42AE5845.1030208@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130654 >S >* >P >* >O >* >I >* >L >* >E >* >R >* >* >* >* >* > > jlnbtr wrote: >Just like everyone else I've downloaded the Bloomsbury screen >savers. Here goes what I think of them: The children's edition >doesn't show much except what we've already discussed (the ring, >which looks like a face to me with a torch; the Hands, DD and HP?). >But the Adult Version is much more interesting: > >Firt we see a red glowing rock, which reminds me of the >Philosopher's stone. > >Then 2 snakes engraved in a rock, possibly a door, I think it looks >like one of the doors in CoS > >A small island made entirely of rocks with a castle. > >A cup that looks like the Goblet of Fire > >A big golden bird, which could be either a Phoenix or an Eagle > >A text book: Advanced Potion-Making, which I think means Harry will >take Advanced Potions > > heather now: Yabbut, aren't those just the adult covers of all the previous books? The 'castle' is Azkaban, the rock is indeed the PS, the snakes are indeed guarding the CoS, the cup is indeed the GoF, the bird is indeed a Phoenix (as in Order Of The). The latest adult cover is the Potions book, which I agree probably means that Harry will take Advanced Potions, but that cover is not 'news', it's been released for awhile now. Sorry if I missed your point... ? heather the buzzard From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 14 04:18:32 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:18:32 -0400 Subject: Harry's Gold Message-ID: <42AE5A98.7050400@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130655 Celebrating my release from moderated status, (cookies for all the elves will be sent out shortly), but I'm still pretty new around here, so apologies if this has been discussed before. Where on earth did Harry's gold come from? I mean, obviously from Lily and James, but where did THEY get it from? It's an awful lot. We haven't seen how much is 'normal' for a wizarding family to have, we've only really had a look at the Weasley's fortunes and they're supposed to be poor. But they make Harry out to be really, really rich -- maybe even as in Malfoy rich, 'old-money' rich. We don't know much about James, but I haven't had the impression that he's 'old money'. We don't even know for sure if he's pureblood! Lily and James were still very young. What had they done to earn all that money? I'd expect James inherited some from his parents (what did they die of, anyway? and Lily's parents to, now you mention it). I wonder if Lily's big secret has to do with all that money. Maybe it'll turn out to be blood money of some sort and Harry feels too guilty to keep it. Or, I wonder if there was a 'trust fund' set up when Harry was orphaned... grateful witches and wizards from all over Britain sent a few Galleons for the magnificent, unfortunate boy. Add that in to the miracle of compound interest... heather the buzzard From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Tue Jun 14 05:22:36 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:22:36 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Gold In-Reply-To: <42AE5A98.7050400@sympatico.ca> References: <42AE5A98.7050400@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130656 >Where on earth did Harry's gold come from? > Well, we know of at least one way to make gold - the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone. There was one KNOWN maker of the Philosopher's Stone. (PS, p. 161). What if Lily had been able to make another Philosopher's Stone? Or what if James were related to Nicholas Flamel? What if Lily's secret is that she was able to make a Philosopher's Stone and that Voldemort had promised to spare Harry if she would tell him how? Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 05:41:21 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:41:21 -0000 Subject: Harry's Gold In-Reply-To: <42AE5A98.7050400@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > > Where on earth did Harry's gold come from? > > I mean, obviously from Lily and James, but where did THEY get it from? > It's an awful lot. We haven't seen how much is 'normal' for a wizarding > family to have, we've only really had a look at the Weasley's fortunes > and they're supposed to be poor. But they make Harry out to be really, > really rich -- maybe even as in Malfoy rich, 'old-money' rich. > > We don't know much about James, but I haven't had the impression that > he's 'old money'. We don't even know for sure if he's pureblood! > > Lily and James were still very young. What had they done to earn all > that money? I'd expect James inherited some from his parents (what did > they die of, anyway? and Lily's parents to, now you mention it). > heather the buzzard Here is a quote from Jo from the America Online chat transcript, AOL.com, 19 October 2000 Question:What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive? Her Answer "Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later." Brent. PS I'm guessing that one or both were teachers at Hogwarts. From fmaneely at bellsouth.net Tue Jun 14 03:10:49 2005 From: fmaneely at bellsouth.net (fhmaneely) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 03:10:49 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlnbtr" wrote: > * > * > * > * > * > S > * > P > * > O > * > I > * > L > * > E > * > R > * > * > * > * > * > Juli: > Just like everyone else I've downloaded the Bloomsbury screen > savers. Here goes what I think of them: The children's edition > doesn't show much except what we've already discussed (the ring, > which looks like a face to me with a torch; the Hands, DD and HP?). > snip Fran: The ring looks pretty interesting to me. Looks an awful lot like Harry's scar....Also if you look at the arms linked by the clasped hands, turn it sideways, looks alot like the mark on the ring and Harry's scar...... My humble opinion anyway. Have not seen the adult screensaver.....will have to check it out! From marshamoon at charter.net Tue Jun 14 06:09:21 2005 From: marshamoon at charter.net (Marsha) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:09:21 -0000 Subject: HBP Predictions Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130659 Ignorance is bliss. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Kingsley Shacklebolt for sure, and one of the Weasleys, but I haven't decided which one. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I confess to cluelessness on this-I think it is a new character and thus, we cannot describe this person. Quite probably, it is McLagen, who is also the "old Lion guy" as described by JKR as having a lion like mane, etc... 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Everything about Lily is a secret. The "you have your mother's eyes, Harry" thing is questionable because it seems to hold some sort of secret. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? McLagen. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Hermione. Hermione. That is, if Hermione has anything to do with it. Hermione. This does not mean that he won't be kissed, fondled, ogled, or licked by Ginny, Luna, Parvati, Lavendar, Draco (that's for the H/D shippers), Susan, Tonks, Rita Skeeter, or some new chick. Kissing is one thing, romance is another. Hermione. Did I mention I think it'll be Hermione? 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I'm thinking Arthur Weasley. The ministry board will ask Dumbledore's advice, and he'll recommend Arthur. That will force Percy's to decide on a side. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It's a Pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Absolutely 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He failed History of Magic. I'm guessing 8. 5 predictions: 1. Harry is a Metamorphmagus. This ability will prove valuable in his own defense. 2. Fred and George's joke wands, snacks, or other products (extendable ears!) will prove important for defense or surveillance in the upcoming war. F &G will be members of the Order of the Phoenix. Thin Cauldron bottoms may determine the outcome of a battle. 3. New SHIP? Rita Skeeter and Luna Lovegood's Dad. 4.Hagrid's Flesh Eating Slug Repellent will show up again, and on the giant front, we will be shown a King Kong moment where Grawp actually picks Hermy up and carries her off in his zeal for her. 5. Old SHIPs resolved: Ron will either show or tell Hermione he likes her; this will go badly. Hermione will indicate her feelings for Harry, which will initially surprise/shock him-but he will return her feelings. Ron/Luna. Ron will spend a fair amount of time pushing Ginny toward Harry, without success. 6. Ron will be captain of the Quidditch team. From vloe at dallasnews.com Tue Jun 14 03:42:15 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (firebird) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 03:42:15 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130660 >Magda wrote: >The personal tragedy of Sirius Black was that he was not the man >that Harry needed; he was the man that Harry convinced himself >he needed. . . . Sirius was a tragedy of unfulfilled potential, >unfulfilled largely due to his own weaknesses. > >Princess Sara wrote: >Did Harry need Sirius? Yes. Sirius is/was a very tangible >connection to James and Lily and, as someone else pointed out, >the embodiment of a bright, sparkly, Dursley-free future for >Harry. And he did love Harry very much. His loss will greatly >effect Harry, for good or ill, and will force him to mature in >way that his godfather never really did. firebird, now: As much as Sirius and Harry loved one another, and as much as Harry longed to depend on Sirius, Harry is learning the very, very hard way that ultimately he must depend upon no one but himself. Dumbledore has been telling Harry since PS/SS that Harry is up to the task at hand, but he, understandably, doesn't feel that way. Harry can count on the loyalty and the help of a growing cadre of allies, and they will undoubtedly be instrumental to him as he approaches the final showdown with LV. But Harry is the Chosen One and if he cannot ultimately summon the resources he needs from inside himself, he and the WW will be lost. Another of Harry's lessons is that sometimes the wisdom we seek is not found in those we love or admire (Sirius) but those we despise or distrust (Snape). These are terribly painful lessons, especially for someone as emotionally starved as Harry. But I suppose it's an important part of the tempering that will prepare him to meet his fate. firebird From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 14 06:14:27 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:14:27 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--The Spy (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > > There are other reasons to doubt Peter's confession. > Peter flinches at the Dark Lord's name. (4) I just wanted to comment on the above. The fact that Peter called LV 'The Dark Lord' was what convinced me that he was the spy. Only DEs call him 'The Dark Lord', every one else calls him 'You Know Who' or 'He Who Must Not Be Named' (apart from the very few who actaully call him Lord Voldemort). I haven't got my books to hand but this is in canon because Harry asks Snape why he calls him The Dark Lord when only DEs call him that - I think it's during the Occlumancy lessons, but not sure about that. He flinches at his name because he's terrified of him. He went to his side because he's weak and easily led and he thought he was going to be on the side of the ones with all the power (like he was at Hogwarts being in with the 'In-Crowd') and he went back to him because he had no where else to go. LV says this to him in OotP. JMO! Karen From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Jun 14 03:47:35 2005 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (Jazmyn Concolor) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:47:35 -0700 Subject: Hogwarts' Cave In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42AE5357.4060101@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130662 Julie / fanofminerva wrote: >You used the word "obviously" to say the cave was created by >magic. What did you notice in canon that made it obvious? Can you REALLY see wizards using shovels and digging tunnels by hand? Many of them use their wands for just about everything.... My canon: It's a school for witches and wizards. Why would they make a tunnel by MUGGLE means? Where is your canon that Witches or Wizards dug it by hand or that it was dug by muggles? Jazmyn From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 14 04:22:07 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:22:07 -0000 Subject: Occlumency and Spies. (Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison...) In-Reply-To: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C56BE@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130663 "Wilson, Bruce" wrote: > I think that Byatt's objection to JKR > is motivated by jealousy. Byatt's > novels are regarded as 'better literature' > by the cognoscetti, but JKR us much more > successful--and wealthy. (Richer > than the Queen, last I heard.) I think that jealousy is big reason literature snobs don't like Rowling, but they would never admit it even to themselves. But the truth is that writers who can impress literary critics are a dime a dozen, nor is their blessing a sign of artistic immortality. Have you ever heard of Sully Prudhomme? Me neither, but he won the very first Nobel Prize in literature in 1901 because they thought Mark Twain was too popular and just wrote children's books. On the other hand writers like Rowling who are extraordinarily popular across all cultures around the world only come around once or twice a century. However I do wish Rowling would use fewer adverbs in dialog attribution, he said furiously. Eggplant From natti_shafer at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 04:47:35 2005 From: natti_shafer at yahoo.com (Nathaniel) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:47:35 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--The Spy (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130664 Pippin said: > But we have multiple grounds to think that Lupin might > be involved with the Death Eaters: not only Snape, but > also Sirius and even Hermione(!) have entertained the > idea. None of the evidence is direct, but once again, > all JKR has to do is connect the dots. Nathaniel here: Snape has a history of incorrectly suspecting those he dislikes. One such instance is when he suspected James of being involved in the prank. However, Dumbledore and Sirius both say James was not involved and neither mentions the involvement (or lack thereof) for Lupin. Another instance is when Snape accused Harry of stealing potion ingredients. We, the reader, know for a fact he never did. They were stolen by Dobby and Barty Crouch Jr. Clearly, Snape's suspicions are not always spot on. As for Sirius, we don't really know how much he entertained the idea that Lupin was a spy. But it does seem unlikely that he had had more than just vague suspicions, or he wouldn't have so quickly come to the conclusion that Peter was the spy. Hermione does not particularly seem to believe that Lupin is evil either. If she did, she would not have kept that fact that he's a werewolf a secret. And although she shouts out that Lupin has been helping Sirius, one must remember the context. At the time in the novel, Lupin has just embraced Sirius (who Harry, Ron, Hermione, and the reader for that matter) are all told is evil. But Hermione drops her suspiscions of Lupin like a hot potato when the story comes out. Hermiones suspiscion of has everything to do with Lupin's friendship to Sirius and nothing to do with anything overtly evil has done. Since Sirius has been exonerated, in Hermione's eyes Lupin has been too. She is hardly evidence of an Ever So Evil Lupin. -Nathaniel From eileennicholson at aol.com Tue Jun 14 04:54:19 2005 From: eileennicholson at aol.com (eileennicholson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:54:19 EDT Subject: Sirius' potential (was: Sirius as Father Figure) Message-ID: <97.616e54d8.2fdfbcfb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130665 Magda said: >Sirius was a tragedy of unfulfilled potential, unfulfilled largely due to his own weaknesses.< Eileen: How much of a chance did he really have to fulfill that potential? His life up to the point where he ran away from home looks far from ideal, judging on what we see in OoP; once he'd recovered from the trauma of running away from home and had got a place of his own he probably had some scope, and maybe he can be considered to have wasted it, being 'too busy being a big rebel' (JKR Edinburgh World Book Day 2004), but at 22 he was in Azkaban without trial, and after that, every time we see him with an opportunity something else goes wrong. Its like he's on a rollercoaster and can't get off - the high points are very brief and go very quickly, the low points are dragged out in episodes of depression. And there was something badly wrong with him in OoP, judging by the contrast with the man we saw in GoF, if not PTSD then something else. IMO he keeps getting more potential heaped upon him (by the end of OoP there's so much of the stuff he's almost carting it around in wheelbarrows, psychologically speaking :-) ) but never gets a real opportunity for redemption before he goes through the veil. For me, the tragedy of Sirius' death was that Jo didn't redeem him sufficiently after she'd built up such an opportunity, so I think (hope?) that she'll do it in the next book or books. At which point perhaps I'll get closure too, and be able to read something other than HP again! Eileen Nicholson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 14 05:12:44 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old & New Predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050614051244.30619.qmail@web80107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130666 Juli wrote: >I was just looking at some old polls (before OoP), and I found >some interesting stuff: only 3% predicted Sirius to die, while >45% thought it was Hagrid. Noone thought the DADA teacher would >be evil, 6% thought that Dumbledore would get sacked. 24$ said >Ron would get into the Quidditch team, and many other cool >predictions, some completely wrong, some accurate enough. > >Where I'm trying to get is that even if we have a million >predictions, odds are they will be wrong, so I want to add some >completely ridiculous predictions, and maybe this way I'll get >one right. Now Chris: This is a fun idea... 1. Harry finds a "true" love.. someone no one expects, how about Susan Bones or Lavender Brown? 2. Some one is able to apparate into and out of Hogwarts. How about "very powerful" Harry. 3. Filch will do magic and shock himself! 4. The marauders map will help save the students when the school is over run by DEs. 5. Ron becomes a general in Harry's army. 6. DD appears to have died, ala Phoenix, just bursts into flames! 7. Draco will join the DA, without Crabbe and Goyle, and Harry lets him. 8. It's really Neville who takes Advanced Potions along with Hermione. 9. The Twins invent "James Bond" style stuff and the joke shop becomes a cover for DD's spies. I think that will be enough for now ;-) Chris (flowerchild4) From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 14 06:33:12 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:33:12 -0000 Subject: Potions book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130667 Something I've been meaning to say for ages and never got around to it is this. That old and frayed potions text book on the adult cover of HBP. As soon as I saw it I thought it was Ron's text book, obviously second-hand, indicating that Ron at least would be taking NEWT Potions. Just a thought! Karen From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 14 07:05:25 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:05:25 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: <20050613173738.10916.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130668 phoenixgod2000: I'm back from vacation. Time to defend my boy Padfoot. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > Yes to both. Dumbledore wouldn't have WANTED Sirius to die; he > doesn't want anyone to die. But let's just say that I don't think > he's blinded by grief. I begin to disagree right here :) I think Dumbledore liked Sirius a lot. I think that the old man could appreciate his sense of humor and deep personal loyalty. I'd lay money that DD himself was an arrogant hellraiser in his youth before he settled down. And if the order of the phoenix was a clandestine conspiracy to fight Voldemort, why would DD include someone he didn't respect in the group? Is DD blinded by grief, no. DD rarely gets blinded by anything other than Harry, but I think he feels Sirius loss on a personal level far more deeply than you give him credit for. But I admit that is my fanwank. but we also don't know yours is any more true. > So what? I mean really, why does this matter? It matters because your assertion that Sirius wouldn't be a good guardian for Harry gets holes put in it when most of the stances he takes in regards to Harry end up basically being right. Shows good guardian instincts to me. >There's a lot of > things Sirius wanted for Harry - including that Harry be a substitute > "bestest mate" for himself. Other than Molly and Hermione, there isn't any *actual* evidence that is true at all, and neither are the most objective arbitors of Sirius' character. Sirius is pretty much everything Hermione hates about school kids rolled up in one guy and the less said about Molly and Sirius the better. I think Sirius wanted to believe something of his hellraising buddy survived in Harry and thought mischief would be the best way to connect with Harry like he did with his father, but I think Sirius clearly understood the difference between James and Harry. He loved Harry for Harry imo. > If Sirius truly had any idea of what was best for Harry, he'd have > worked harder at getting closer to him rather than hiding out in > Buckbeak's room for hours at a time, he'd have sucked up his > disappointment about his life and put on a confident front so that > Harry's stress level didn't erupt, and he'd have refrained from > telling Harry that "you're less like your father than I thought" and > abruptly ending a floo conversation. I agree that some of OOTP!Sirius isn't the greatest but I think he was doing the best he could while dealing with his own demons and within the strictures DD placed on him. > They could have continued to grow up together. That is an incredibly cruel statement. Sirius is a hero. he survived in a prison that's left everyone else a gibbering wreck. He did it through willpower and the same stubborness that caused him to leave a family that held disgusting beliefs that he disagreed with. He stuck with friends in a war that had families turning on each other. he joined a group dedicated to a fight he didn't have to participate in since his blood would have shielded him. He did the best he could with the time he had. Was he the worlds most mature person? Maybe not, but he didn't have the decade of life experience that everyone else around him did. He tried to work with what he could to protect the teenager he loved until he was locked away again by someone he trusted. He was left to twist and molder while others took on important jobs with the order and with Harry. It ate at him over the span of a year, but when Harry needed him, he tried to be there for him the best as he could and when Harry was in trouble he came running. Sirus was locked in a prison he didn't earn for crimes he didn't commit. He suffered a fate that would have left any other member of the order a drooling basketcase and came out of it fighting. Sirius is a hero who gave everything he had to the cause and to Harry. You can't ask for more than that. And all you can say is they could have grown up togther? phoenixgod2000, who read the thread about literature, Harry, and death and is desperatly trying to avoid posting on it. And losing. From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 08:49:56 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:49:56 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130669 "flyingmonkeypurple": > I was just re reading the third book and I was thinking how it shows > all of Hogwarts. After Harry and Hermione use the time turner and are > just sitting and waiting to rescue Black. Woudn't the Marader's Map > show them on the map. If the invisibility cloak can be detected so can > time travel. both Lupin and Snape saw the map. Finwitch: They would - if someone watched the map while both Harrys & Hermiones were within the Hogwarts grounds showing on the map. However, Hagrid's hut is NOT on the map -- and as for Wormtail: while he stays on Hagrid's hut, Remus can't see him on the map AND no cats around (given that Hagrid is allergic to cats)... I'd say they weren't on the map most of the time. (except the HHR in the hospital wing or going there). Also -- I'd say that neither the Chamber of Secrets nor the Room of Requirement are on it - since you need to be a parselmouth to enter the former and Sirius apparently didn't know of the latter. But any room the Marauders had found... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 09:15:51 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:15:51 -0000 Subject: Harry's Gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130670 Laura Lynn Walsh : > > Well, we know of at least one way to make gold - the > Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone. There was one KNOWN > maker of the Philosopher's Stone. (PS, p. 161). What > if Lily had been able to make another Philosopher's > Stone? Or what if James were related to Nicholas > Flamel? What if Lily's secret is that she was able > to make a Philosopher's Stone and that Voldemort > had promised to spare Harry if she would tell him > how? Finwitch: Well, on Rowling's webpage www.jkrowling.com - on Extra Stuff/edits it says that her disregarded plan was that James&Lily had stolen the stone... but, of course, that didn't really work out. There's also a notion that 'James didn't need a high-paying job' - and that he, too, had *inherited* the Potter fortune. As for where Harry's grandparents got it, well... apparently it's not important to the plot, but... I got one silly idea, regarding Harry's hair: remember how it defied all attempts to flatten or cut it in Philosopher's Stone - and how very much it looked like James' hair -- even though Lily apparently thought James had *taken effort to make it look like he had just coumd out of playing Quidditch*? What I thought was that, quite possibly, James was trying to flatten it in vain or pretending his hair was like that because he wanted it to be so BUT in truth his hair was just as defying of barbering as Harry's. And that this kind of 'Potter-hair' was hereditary, as well as a certain defiance. I'd say that very long time ago... 1)Potters made Pottery and sold it. 2)They made *bets* about their hair - that particularly if someone commented as to how messy it was - they'd make a bet that the other does something to fix it (and since they never could, the Potter won the bet)... 3)They've made good investments (Harry investing into WWW may have been one) that turned out to be very profitable. Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 09:55:40 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:55:40 -0000 Subject: Entertainment in the WW/Hermione at risk In-Reply-To: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C56C6@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130671 Bruce: > Absence of proof is not the same thing as proof of absence. But > I think that things like fiction don't exist in the wizardling > world, as the writing of fiction is as close as we muggles can > get to magic. (See JRRT 'On Fairy Stories'.) Finwitch: Considering Hermione's 'light reading' actually IS a school book of Alchemy -- why not? A story that for Muggles would work as a fairy tale, is HISTORY to magical folk. But there IS fiction in WW, too: the comic Martin the Mad Muggle as an example. (mentioned in GoF - Ron reads it, apparently). And dangerous books, too: Sonnets of the Sorcerer - you'll speak in limericks for the rest of your life if you read it... What was in the book you couldn't stop reading- (some fiction books DO seem to have that effect, they're just so interesting - or do they put me under a spell?) - or the one that burned your eyes out? Ron mentions them to Harry (remember TR's diary WAS nearly causing Ginny's death due possession etc.) Somewhere... JKR asks why no one's worried of Hermione... and actually, I think she's likely to fall. Book 1: she's nearly killed by a troll if not for Ron&Harry to save her. Book 2: she's petrified by a basilisk Book 3: she's overtiring herself trying to study too much (Ron breaks his leg, but Madam Pomfrey can fix that quite easily) and she couldn't beat her boggart Book 4: she insults several house-elves with her SPEW-idea Book 5: SPEW is going on, and she's in as much at risk as others of DA (which she came up with). In addition, Hermione has an ongoing habit of running into the library by herself without so much as telling anyone - add this to those dangerous books... Finwitch From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 14 10:08:19 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:08:19 -0000 Subject: Harry's Gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: Finwitch: > 3)They've made good investments (Harry investing into WWW may have > been one) that turned out to be very profitable. Geoff: I have visions of that being a good little earner for Harry. But of course, there'a still the tidy sum which was held by Gringotts. 'All Harry's - it was incredible. The Dursleys couldn't have known about this of they'd have had it from him faster than blinking. How often had they complained how much Harry cost them to keep? And all the time there had been a small fortune belonging to him, buried deep under London.' (PS "Diagon Alley" p.58 UK edition) It would indeed be interesting to know more about the Potters' inheritance and its source. It seems to have been a fairly substantial bequest. Do we know definitely what careers James and Lily followed? Obviously they didn't get well established since Voldemort killed them when they were both still very young. The Lexicon suggest that James was only about 21 so they had only been out of Hogwarts about three years, so they would not have accumulated much money of their from work by that time. From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 10:13:32 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:13:32 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130673 > Betsy Hp: > The downward spiral of Sirius is strange to me. Yes, the house > holds bad memories, but why does he seem to get worse as time goes > by? There were hints of darkness in GoF (his advice to maim the > dragon for example) but Sirius seems to be retrograding back to > Shrieking Shack!Sirius instead of slowly getting better. And > unfortunantely Harry seems to bare the brunt of Sirius' emotional > breakdown. > > I've read some theories: Sirius is being drugged (I think I read > that on this list - don't remember the post though... > Betsy Hp Arrgh, I'm trying to find the reference in OOtP, but can't in the limited time I have right now. There's a scene where Harry is trying to read something for class but isn't focusing well; his reading about some potion meant to cause confusion is interspersed with random thoughts about Sirius. It was this passage that made me wonder if Sirius' unbalanced mental state was at least in part due to chemical or magical "help" from someone. My apologies for not finding the exact source - I'll post that if I get the chance to look more closely later. Lorel From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 10:16:02 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:16:02 -0000 Subject: Harry's use of an Unforgivable excused? (was: Who taught Voldemort?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "Rebecca Dreiling" wrote: > > > Harry did use an Unforgivable curse in OoP. > > Is he excused because of the context of the spell's use? Eggplant: > No, he is excused because Wizard law is never ever enforced to the > letter UNLESS you are in the Ministry's disfavor, and by the end of > OoP Harry was back in their good graces. As far as the Ministry is > concerned I imagine Harry could literally get away with murder now, > the same privileged position Lucius Malfoy once had. Finwitch: Also, consider that no spell left Harry's wand when tried that. He did NOT cast cruciatus on Bella (as she apparently didn't feel the pain). It's questionable whether even 'attempt to cast that spell' will hold - since no spell left Harry's wand for this. His intent and desire, however - yes, Harry's *morally* guilty, but I find it doubtful if he is so *legally*. Also, it may be that Bella would need to press charges (and if she tried, SHE would be back in Azkaban, and no one would listen) - and, there's nothing to prove this... particularly if Harry learns Occlumency to block Veritaserum influence... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 10:32:19 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:32:19 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts' Tunnel *SPOILER* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130675 > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > What puzzles me, though, is that if there is something secret down > > there, why would they take the first-years through? Everyone at > > Hogwarts knows about this tunnel. > > > > > heather the buzzard > > > > >Gregory: > > I always looked at is as a symbolic crossing from one world to > another. In many mythologies there is a boatman who takes the dead > from the land of the living to the land of the dead. I see it like > that except it's taking Harry from the muggle world to the wizard > world. Of course this is Harry-centric but there ya go. Finwitch: Now-- I think this tradition - bringing first years over the lake - has to do with Hogwarts protections. It's an introduction of new students - (and it gives the older ones/teachers time to seat themselves before they arrive). After sorting, the students CAN enter trough the gate via carriage (newer method, considering they really didn't have the thestrals earlier)... I'm positive there's some MAGICAL reason for it, aside from all the ceremonial matters. Finwitch From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 14 11:48:40 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:48:40 -0000 Subject: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore? Was: Re : Harry's Role in OotP (long) In-Reply-To: <20050613204444.40295.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > Let us say that Peter wasn't a traitor, that he was what James and > Sirius thought he was: "weak, talentless" (Sirius), needed all the > help he could get (Lupin). Is this a person who's going to stand > up to anyone who might be willing to use violence to find out > where the Potters were hiding or how they were able to hide? Karen: That was the whole point though. Sirius persuaded James and Lily to make Peter their SK on the basis that no one would be stupid enough to trust a person like Peter with such a secret and therefore LV and the DEs would not bother him. POA UK Paperback p 271. Chapter 19 - The Servant of Lord Volemort. '"Lily and James only made you Secret-Keeper because I suggested it," Black hissed, "I thought it was the perfect plan ... a bluff ... Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you..."' Karen From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 14 12:21:59 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:21:59 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--The Spy (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nathaniel" > Nathaniel here: > > As for Sirius, we don't really know how much he entertained the idea > that Lupin was a spy. But it does seem unlikely that he had had more > than just vague suspicions, or he wouldn't have so quickly come to > the conclusion that Peter was the spy. > I agree and I think that Sirius thought that Lupin was the spy more by default than anything else. Sirius' possible train of thought: James or Lily cannot be the spy, I *know* I'm not the spy, Peter cannot be the spy because he's too stupid, therefore Lupin must be the spy. Karen From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 14 12:57:40 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:57:40 -0000 Subject: Harry's Gold In-Reply-To: <42AE5A98.7050400@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130678 Heather the buzzard: > I mean, obviously from Lily and James, but where did THEY get it > from? It's an awful lot. We haven't seen how much is 'normal' > for a wizarding family to have, we've only really had a look at the > Weasley's fortunes and they're supposed to be poor. But they make > Harry out to be really, really rich -- maybe even as in Malfoy > rich, 'old-money' rich. SSSusan: I've always liked the idea that James was a descendant of Bowman Wright's, the inventor of the Golden Snitch, who we know from QttA was also a resident of Godric's Hollow. I suspect this invention brought Mr. Wright a cool little fortune, and this is what got passed down to James & Harry (along with, perhaps, some Quidditch skill?). Siriusly Snapey Susan From ethel11scorpio at hotmail.com Tue Jun 14 11:01:30 2005 From: ethel11scorpio at hotmail.com (Ethel) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:01:30 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's use of an Unforgivable excused? (was: Who taught Voldemort?) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130679 Finwitch: > Also, consider that no spell left Harry's wand when tried that. He > did NOT cast cruciatus on Bella (as she apparently didn't feel the > pain). It's questionable whether even 'attempt to cast that spell' > will hold - since no spell left Harry's wand for this. Uhhh... no VISIBLE spell left Harry's wand. But certainly Bellatrix was influenced by something, when she stopped laughing and fell down for a moment. There are many scenes in the book, where we see Cruciatus being used and as with Imperius: no flashy special effects. Harry did cast a real Cruciatus, just not a very strong one. However, I think it's unlike Harry will be punished. After all, no-one knows he cast the spell - only he and Bellatrix. Somehow I don't think accusations by Death Eaters are going to be believed. Harry might confess - but then again he might just forget about the incident. Lots of things happened that night. Ethel From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 14 11:13:19 2005 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:13:19 -0000 Subject: Potions book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130680 Karen Barker wrote: > Something I've been meaning to say for ages and never got around to > it is this. That old and frayed potions text book on the adult cover > of HBP. As soon as I saw it I thought it was Ron's text book, > obviously second-hand, indicating that Ron at least would be taking > NEWT Potions. My first thought on seeing the Potions Book was that it indicated, whomsoever it belongs to, the importance of Snape in the coming story. It might even be Snape's old book and we'll be getting (please!)some more backstory on how and why Snape's the way he is. In fact I'd just like to know what he is, never mind why. hettiebe From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 14 13:16:54 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:16:54 +0100 Subject: Hermione and parents Message-ID: <000f01c570e3$5703c880$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 130681 I have read with great interest the discussions about Hermione and her parents. As I read the Harry Potter books, I can sympathize with the way her parents must have felt, hardly seeing their daughter whilst she was at Hogwarts. I am a blind person and spent all my scholastic years at boarding schools, so I know what it's like to leave home for long periods. We only get short glimpses of Hermione's parents, but I think that, with her being an only child they would have been delighted that she had friends of their own. Mum and Dad always wanted me to have a brother or sister, but were advised not to try for another child, in case he or she turned out to be blind and I know that when I finally got over the homesickness period, they were delighted I had my own friends. As the schools I attended were a great distance from home, I personally had no friends in my locality. Again, if Hermione had that bossy know-it-all attitude before Hogwarts, we have to ask ourselves whether or not she had friends in her locality. Derek From llamadroid at hotmail.com Tue Jun 14 13:24:12 2005 From: llamadroid at hotmail.com (Liane) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:24:12 -0000 Subject: HBP Audiobook (possible spoiler) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130682 I can't see a post on this already, so I apologise if there is, but on www.veritaserum.com there is an article about the release of the HBP audiobook in the US. This itself is not a spoiler, but there was something that made me think... * * * S P O I L E R ? ? * * * Ok, this was casually slipped into the article: "Jim Dale, the narrarator of the first five HP audiobooks, will voice Half-Blood Price as well, providing the voices for 117 characters in the book. The unabridged audiobook is 19 hours long." 117 characters!! Sounds like a lot of stuff is going to be happening in this book! Incidently, does anyone know how many characters there are in the other books? I've never even thought of this before, but this would be what causes a spoiler, ie if there are usually much less of much more speaking characters! Just thought I'd share! Liane From elfundeb at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 14:19:46 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (Debbie) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:19:46 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Update and Clarification of Spoiler Policy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130683 Greetings from Hexquarters! Many thanks to those of you who are using the S P O I L E R space and the HBP prefix, which we announced in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129899 We have a few important clarifications to add -- DON'T RELY ON SPOILER CHARACTERS IN QUOTES We want to remind everyone that Yahoo skips over quoted material in selecting material to include in the post summary that appears on the message list. Therefore, please don't rely on the spoiler characters written by the person you are quoting. You must add your own spoiler space or your spoiler will appear in the message summary and irritate your fellow readers. SPOILERS IN SUBJECT HEADINGS We also want to remind everyone NOT to include any spoilers in the subject heading because they're, well, they're spoilers and some people don't want to read them. A subject heading that says "HBP Cover Art: the pensieve" tells the reader that there is a pensieve on the cover. That's a spoiler. A better heading would be "HBP: Cover Art". SPOILERS FROM OTHER BOOKS Please also remember to give spoiler warnings when discussing spoilers in literature other than HP on the list. Many members have not read Austen, LotR, and other works that are compared to HP on this list. INJUNCTION PROHIBITING DISCLOSURE OF TEXT OF HBP JKR has been granted an injunction against any premature disclosure of the text of HBP. Accordingly, any post containing (or purporting to contain) portions of Book Six before one second after midnight, Greenwich Summer Time on July 16 will be immediately deleted and the poster placed on moderated status on all HPFGU lists. Thank you! Debbie aka Speedy Elf for the List Elves From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jun 14 14:30:19 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:30:19 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP Audiobook (possible spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c570ed$97f3e230$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130684 117 characters!! Sounds like a lot of stuff is going to be happening in this book! Incidently, does anyone know how many characters there are in the other books? I've never even thought of this before, but this would be what causes a spoiler, ie if there are usually much less of much more speaking characters! Sherry: I remember after GOF, that Jim dale said he voiced 125 characters. He was given that book in segments, a few pages at a time. The original audio book didn't even give the title at the beginning, just said this is the fourth book in JK Rowling's Harry Potter series! Remember, the title was a closely guarded secret. So, he's done a few less voices for the new book. But GOF had a lot of bit characters, people we never saw after the world cup or the first chapter in little Hangleton for instance. All the books are like that. Sherry From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 15:22:48 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:22:48 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts' Cave In-Reply-To: <42AE5357.4060101@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130685 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jazmyn Concolor wrote: > > Julie / fanofminerva wrote: > >You used the word "obviously" to say the cave was created by > >magic. What did you notice in canon that made it obvious? > > > Can you REALLY see wizards using shovels and digging tunnels by > hand? Many of them use their wands for just about everything.... > My canon: It's a school for witches and wizards. Why would they > make a tunnel by MUGGLE means? Where is your canon that Witches > or Wizards dug it by hand or that it was dug by muggles? > > Jazmyn I didn't say I knew how it was dug or by whom or if it was natural. I thought you had read something in canon that made it obvious to you and that I had missed it. That's all. When I read posts on this list, I try to differentiate between canon and speculation. For instance, Geoff almost always provides canon with his posts, either in quotes or in book/publisher/page references. I just thought you read something I missed and was wondering what that was. Julie From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 16:09:26 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:09:26 -0000 Subject: HBP Audiobook (possible spoiler) In-Reply-To: <000401c570ed$97f3e230$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130686 > 117 characters!! Sounds like a lot of stuff is going to be > happening in this book! Incidently, does anyone know how many > characters there are in the other books? I've never even thought of > this before, but this would be what causes a spoiler, ie if there > are usually much less of much more speaking characters! > > Sherry: > > I remember after GOF, that Jim dale said he voiced 125 characters. He was > given that book in segments, a few pages at a time. The original audio book > didn't even give the title at the beginning, just said this is the fourth > book in JK Rowling's Harry Potter series! Remember, the title was a closely > guarded secret. So, he's done a few less voices for the new book. But GOF > had a lot of bit characters, people we never saw after the world cup or the > first chapter in little Hangleton for instance. All the books are like > that. > > Sherry Antosha Thanks, Sherry! That sounds about right--when I'm reading the book to my younger daughter there're always these peculiar characters--mirrors, folks on the street, etc.--who come and go quickly. When you think about it, Harry's close circle--let's say the DA--is 30 people. Add another 10 for the Hogwarts staff and faculty that Harry actually talks with, 20 or so for Malfoy, his cronies and the other Hogwarts students that Harry isn't close to, a half-dozen for the members of the Weasley clan who don't go to school, the same for members of the Order, another 10-plus for your typical contingent of Death Eaters/villainous types.... You've reached close to 75, and that's just the standing cast! No strange shop-keepers, no magical creatures, no pub-dwellers, no talking tea pots, no odd people in the street... 119 sounds fairly normal to me, now that I think about it. From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Jun 14 16:26:00 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:26:00 -0000 Subject: Byatt and Rowling (was re: Occlumency and Spies) In-Reply-To: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C56BE@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130687 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wilson, Bruce" wrote: > > [Wilson, Bruce]: > I think that Byatt's objection to JKR is motivated by jealousy. Byatt's novels are regarded as 'better literature' by the > cognoscetti, but JKR us much more successful--and wealthy. (Richer > than the Queen, last I heard.) I don't think that is entirely the case. I grant you that Byatt probably does feel some jealousy -- she would not be human if she did not. But I don't think her critique can be dismissed QUITE that easily. In my opinion, she is on the firmest ground when she criticizes concrete elements of Rowling's writing. For instance, she is correct that the whole explanation about Harry, the Dursleys, and Dumbledore has been poorly done and extremely unconvincing. She is also definitely correct that Rowling is derivative, often extraordinarily so. Finally, I think she is right that Rowling doesn't do a very good job of conveying sweeping issues of light and darkness -- in large part because the chief villain is such a comic book moustache-twister and his minions such clumsy bunglers. However, Byatt gets into trouble when she departs from concrete critique and launches into more theoretical realms. For one thing, her assumption that derivative=bad is, while common, not really a good one. After all, there really isn't anything new under the sun, and everything arises from multiple roots. Besides, if there ever was anything totally new it would be useless and incomprehensible, as we have no way of approaching anything except through the touchstones of our personal experience. Byatt's complaint that Rowling's writing lacks the numinous is, I think, untrue. I agree that Rowling doesn't do a very good job, always, of conveying the sense of transcendant good and evil at work, but I don't agree that such issues aren't present. Finally, the equation of Rowling's popularity with some widespread desire for regression is facile. It's the kind of amorphous explanation that, pressed hard enough, can explain anything and everything. So, on the whole, Byatt's critique is of mixed quality. When dealing with specific aspects of Rowling's writing, her criticism is often sharp and telling. When she moves on to more theoretical issues, however, her critique begins to flounder. Lupinlore From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 14 14:27:20 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:27:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's use of an Unforgivable excused? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130688 finwitch" wrote: > no spell left Harry's wand when > tried that. Hedid NOT cast > cruciatus on Bella I'll have to disagree with you on that. Granted the curse was not expertly cast but I'll bet the very first time Voldemort tried that spell it was not at 100% either. Harry's curse was strong enough to make Bella scream, and you'll notice she stopped with that silly baby talk after that and took Harry far more seriously. It's clear to me that Harry did violated the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law too for that matter; however it is equally clear to me that he will not be prosecuted for it. Eggplant From labmystc at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 14:57:36 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (labmystc) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:57:36 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130689 1.Who will be the most major character to die? I'm thinking Lupin. 2.Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Dumbledore. "Prince" being reference not to royalty but to a champion of sorts. He loves his half-bloods! 3.What is Lily's big secret? She dated Snape before falling in love with James. Wouldn't that be hilarious? 4.Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape will finally get his wish and teach his own brand of Defense. 5.With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I have to go with Luna here. I think they connect. 6.Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones seems the likely choice here. 7.What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Obviously a pensieve! 8.Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course! 9.Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. He will emerge as a potion-maker with abilities that rival those of Snape! 10.How many OWLs did Harry get? 8 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Sirius will return in some form or another. 2. Ron and Hermione will leave the trappings of youth behind them and declare their love for each other. 3. The trio will become animagi. Harry will be a stag, Hermione will be a unicorn, and Ron a weasel(fits the name right?) 4. Filch will complete his Qwikspell course and find new ways to deal with students. 5. Percy will complete his transformation to the Dark-Side, Darth- Vader style. labmystc From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 15:00:55 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius as Father Figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050614150055.53060.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130690 firebird wrote: > > Another of Harry's lessons is that sometimes the > wisdom we seek is not found in those we love or admire (Sirius) but > those we despise or distrust (Snape). These are terribly > painful lessons, especially for someone as emotionally starved as > Harry. But I suppose it's an important part of the tempering that > will prepare him to meet his fate. I cannot agree more with what you said firebird. It can be said that at some point we all have to swallow some hard truths that come from people we (in general) don't like or trust. I know Harry does not like Snape or trust him as far as harry can toss a stone but I'd like to think Harry will go to realize that not everyone is as black and white as he use to see them. laurie From labmystc at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 16:27:31 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (labmystc) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:27:31 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore knows more than we give credit for In-Reply-To: <20050611094103.80732.qmail@web60216.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130691 > Eileen wrote: > > I thought myself that if DD wanted to save Sirius, he'd have found >a more reliable way to do it than entrusting it to two kids with a >time turner - he had Sirius locked in the castle, after all - so I >don't think this was his objective. Which left me wondering what he >wanted to achieve. I think DD knows this is the most reliable way because somehow he can see the future. > Since he had already seen that Buckbeak had vanished in a very >short space of time, he would have been aware that a time turner >might be in use by someone who was motivated to rescue Buckbeak. We assume that DD in the past, when Harry and Hermione had returned through time to rescue BB and Sirius, was not aware of a time-turner being used until he saw that BB had disappeared. I disagree. I think he was aware: "The hippogriff began to walk, rustling its wings irritably. They were still ten feet away from the forest, in plain view of Hagrid's back door." "'One moment, please, Macnair,' came Dumbledore's voice. 'You need to sign too.' The footsteps stopped." PA, U.S. pb ed., p.401 Macnair was close to walking out the back door of the cabin and see Harry struggling to move BB into the forest. Dumbledore had stopped Macnair from leaving at exactly the moment he would see Harry in the garden. Coincidence, maybe. But there is more: "Hagrid's back door had opened with a bang...'It was tied here!' said the executioner furiously. 'I saw it! Just here!' 'How extraordinary,' said Dumbledore. There was a note of amusement in his voice." PA, U.S. pb ed., p.402 I think there's amusement because DD knew the whole time he was there that Harry and Hermione were out back preparing to take BB. He knew because he was aware that sometime later that night he was going to tell them to use the time turner and go back in time. I think either DD can see the future, or future DD told his past self that Harry and Hermione were coming and he would have to distract Macnair, Fudge, and the commitee member so Harry and Hermione would not be discovered. DD already knew BB would be rescued; after they discovered BB was gone, Dumbledore played it off and asked Hagrid if he could have some tea. Would something potentially tragic and devastating be dismissed so easily if DD didn't already know what was coming? Here's something else to prove DD may me a master manipulator. Up until going back through time, Harry could not produce a full-fledged Patronus. All he could summon was a silvery vapor or smoke, enough to repel dementors perhaps, but not enough to get rid of them completely. When Hermione comments on the fact that he produced one, Harry responds with "I knew I could do it this time, because I'd already done it. Does that make sense?" Did DD know that this would allow Harry to overcome this inability? Did DD already know that perhaps somewhere down the line, Harry would be attacked by two dementors in an alley in Little Whinging, and he would need this particular charm? My answer is yes. How about when Harry arrives for his trial in OoTP? DD shows up to save the day even though he wasn't informed the trial had been moved. When Fudge acts surprised at DD's arrival, DD states he lucky he arrived at the ministry three hours early. Did he already know in advance the trial had been moved? My answer is yes. There is a lot more going on with DD than we all can possibly imagine. It is my guess that he even knows the outcome of this war. I think he may even know which one will die, Harry, LV, or both. It will be intersting to see what is revealed about DD in the last two books. As I stated in my contest entry, I think that DD IS the HBP, and I am willing to bet that most of HBP will focus on DD, his past, and perhaps just a little bit more of his powers. Chris From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue Jun 14 18:48:52 2005 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:48:52 -0000 Subject: Accio 2005 press release: registration coming to an end Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130692 Accio 2005 would like to remind you that if you prefer to take part in late night bar discussions without that irritating worry of 'where was my hotel again?' - the deadline for registering for the full weekend, with an on-campus room, is fast approaching. After 30th June we'll have to ask people to find their own accommodation. So if you don't want to be looking for a taxi cab when everyone else is just telling the painting the password, book now. Accio 2005 is an unofficial friendly event, bringing together academics and adult Harry Potter fans to discuss all aspects of J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter books. Planned events include a Grand Jury style trial of Snape, workshops, presentations, panels, speeches, games, a feast, and the aforesaid informal discussions into the wee hours. Remember, this will be your first opportunity to discuss Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince with fellow fans and interested professionals. Accio 2005, the first Harry Potter conference in the UK, will take place at the University of Reading over the weekend of 29 - 31 July, 2005. For more information, please see our website at http://www.accio.org.uk./ From philnel at ksu.edu Tue Jun 14 19:00:37 2005 From: philnel at ksu.edu (Philip Nel) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:00:37 -0400 Subject: unsubscribe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118775637.42af295534026@webmail.ksu.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 130693 Quoting Ali : > > > > > Accio 2005 would like to remind you that if you prefer to take part > > in late night bar discussions without that irritating worry > > of 'where was my hotel again?' - the deadline for registering for > > the full weekend, with an on-campus room, is fast approaching. After > > 30th June we'll have to ask people to find their own accommodation. > > > > So if you don't want to be looking for a taxi cab when everyone else > > is just telling the painting the password, book now. > > > > Accio 2005 is an unofficial friendly event, bringing together > > academics and adult Harry Potter fans to discuss all aspects of J. > > K. Rowling's Harry Potter books. Planned events include a Grand Jury > > style trial of Snape, workshops, presentations, panels, speeches, > > games, a feast, and the aforesaid informal discussions into the wee > > hours. Remember, this will be your first opportunity to discuss > > Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince with fellow fans and > > interested professionals. > > > > Accio 2005, the first Harry Potter conference in the UK, will take > > place at the University of Reading over the weekend of 29 - 31 July, > > 2005. For more information, please see our website at > > http://www.accio.org.uk./ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html > > > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material > from posts to which you're replying! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 18:58:11 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050614185812.34371.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130694 Princess Sara: ...edited... Sirius' attempts to guilt/mold Harry into being James and not fatherly in the slightest, as they are borne of a very adolescent and selfish need to reclaim his past. I have to disagree with you here, I don't think that Sirius tries to mold Harry into James, he sees they are a lot alike but he clearly differences them. Sure Sirius would love to get James back, but he knows it's not possible, he knows the only link he's got to his best friend is Harry. But he also sees Harry as his "son", someone he's always looking out for, and yes, someone he loves more than anyone. Juli __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html From eileennicholson at aol.com Tue Jun 14 20:36:34 2005 From: eileennicholson at aol.com (eileennicholson at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:36:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore knows more than we give credit for Message-ID: <1ea.3ec2840c.2fe099d2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130695 Chris (Labmystc@) wrote: >I think DD knows this is the most reliable way because somehow he >can see the future. >snip< >There is a lot more going on with DD than we all can possibly >imagine. Eileen: Chris, what a great post! There's certainly a lot more going on than I imagined! Its possible that DD decided in advance of Buckbeak's execution, that he was either going to go back himself later, or send someone else back, to rescue Buckbeak, and was making sure extra time was provided for this. But in this situation, where it is all still to happen in the future, so to speak, I can't see why he would be amused, the amusement has to be retrospective. And the foreknowledge about the trial suggests that moving backwards and forwards in time may be a habit with him. So he may be going back and/or forwards mentally, or physically, or both. And if it was physical, his apparent invisibility ability (sorry!) would ensure that he doesn't get seen.... Wow! What possibilities that opens up. Godric's Hollow - When the Fidelius charm is broken, DD knows where Godric's Hollow is and goes back and watches the whole thing, probably sticking his oar in at some point to change the course of events. Or DD goes forward and watches events at Godric's Hollow, complete with oar, and then nips back and suggests the Fidelius charm to the Potters - Machiavelli, eat your heart out! But that leaves even less of an excuse for Sirius' death. :-((( There had better be a reason, and it sure needs to be a good one after this... ....back to reading from the start of book 1 again! Eileen Nicholson From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 21:14:30 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:14:30 -0000 Subject: Harry's Gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130696 cubfanbudwoman I've always liked the idea that James was a descendant of Bowman Wright's, the inventor of the Golden Snitch, who we know from QttA was also a resident of Godric's Hollow. I suspect this invention brought Mr. Wright a cool little fortune, and this is what got passed down to James & Harry (along with, perhaps, some Quidditch skill?). tinglinger Though I love concocting complex threories, I think the answer to the riddle of the source of Harry's fortune is quite logically obvious {given that there are no other complex facts about the Potter or Evans family to go on at this point...} Flamel and Dumbledore, as per the frog cards, etc.} are partners and alchemists. James and Lily were their apprentices {DD and NF are getting on in years and need some new blood, so to speak}. We know that Flamel and Dumbledore had access to the Sorcerer's Stone, and could have used it to produce both wealth and immortality, both valuable in the fight against Voldemort. James and Lily studied alchemy and used the Sorcerer's Stone, to produce as much gold as thy and the order needed. As another thought, Just as the Flamels used the SS to extend their lives, the Potters may have also have attempted to achieve immortality {SS pg 53 Hagrid -- "CAR CRASH!" roared Hagrid, "How could a car crash kill Lily and James Potter? It's an outrage!" } I always wondered about that line.... tinglinger who has more theories on James and Lily and the Sorcerer's Stone in potterplots http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 21:42:44 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:42:44 -0000 Subject: Harry's Gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130697 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" > wrote: > > Finwitch: > > > > > 3)They've made good investments (Harry investing into WWW may have > > been one) that turned out to be very profitable. > Geoff: > I have visions of that being a good little earner for Harry. But of > course, there'a still the tidy sum which was held by Gringotts. > > ...edited... > > It would indeed be interesting to know more about the Potters' > inheritance and its source. It seems to have been a fairly > substantial bequest. Do we know definitely what careers James and > Lily followed? ... they had only been out of Hogwarts about three > years, so they would not have accumulated much money of their from > work by that time. bboyminn: Once again, I'm going to do what I do best - speculate. Although I really really do try to make logical and reasonable speculations. I hope I base them on some reasonable model of life and literature, and futher hope my conclusions come from sound reasoning rather than flighty impulsive speculation. In the age the the wizard's society seems to be modeled on, we see two significant levels of wealth. The first in our modern age, we would call middle-class; doctors, lawyers, shopkeepers, and other specific-function businessmen. The second would be the upper-class, people who in a sense don't have a specific profession, but instead make money off of money; in simple terms, they are investors. Take Scrooge in 'The Christmas Carol', or Nicholas' Uncle Ralph in 'Nicholas Nicholby' or the Twins in 'Nicholas Nicholby', what was their occupation? The answer is they were rich; that was their occuption. For that matter, what is Lucius Malfoy's occupation, again, the answer is he's rich; that's how he makes money. In a more practial sense, these people were investors. They invested in land, either farm or real estate, and made money off of rent and/or crop shares. Further, they likely invested in business transactions; in a sense, acting as a short term money lenders. They may have invested as a partner in what they preceived to be a good long term successful business venture. All the while their true objective is to maintain and hopefully increase the family fortune while maintaining their lavish lifestyle. My point, to some extent, is that once James had the family fortune, he would have been able to work, long term or short term, at whatever job appealed to him at the moment. Not needing a routine day-to-day work situation, he had the luxury of dedicating his time to helping fight Voldemort. I'm sure as a young man, he thought the immediate problem of Voldemort was more important, and that managing the family fortune could wait a few years. I also, while I can't prove it, got the sense that James and Lily lived somewhat modest lifestyles; confortable but modest. They don't strike me as the type to live in a large manored estate and ride around in a golden carriage. As far as the original Potter family fortune, a reasonable guess is that it started with land, or some specific working business, and was built from their on investments. As an aside, I wonder if there aren't long term original Potter family investments in land and/or business partnerships that are still paying dividends and adding to Harry's bank account? Regardless, whether you go back one year or one thousand years, this concept of wealth built on investments has always supported the upper crust of society. As a further side note; many have speculated that perhaps the Potter fortune comes from a direct family link to Bowman Wright of Godrics Hollow who invented the Snitch. Harry, to this day, could still be receiving royalties for that invention. As fun an idea as that is, I think it's a bit of a stretch. But none the less, the Potter fortune could be founded in some type of invention, and expanded from their by investments. Certainly speculation, but do you find it reasonable speculation? Steve/bboyminn From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 21:55:36 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:55:36 -0000 Subject: Harry's Gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > cubfanbudwoman > I've always liked the idea that James was a descendant > of Bowman Wright's, the inventor of the Golden Snitch, > who we know from QttA was also a resident of Godric's > Hollow. I suspect this invention brought Mr. Wright a > cool little fortune, and this is what got passed down > to James & Harry (along with, perhaps, some Quidditch > skill?). > > > tinglinger > Though I love concocting complex threories, I think the > answer to the riddle of the source of Harry's fortune is > quite logically obvious {given that there are no other > complex facts about the Potter or Evans family to go on > at this point...} > Flamel and Dumbledore, as per the frog cards, etc.} are > partners and alchemists. James and Lily were their > apprentices {DD and NF are getting on in years and need > some new blood, so to speak}. We know that Flamel and > Dumbledore had access to the Sorcerer's Stone, and could > have used it to produce both wealth and immortality, both > valuable in the fight against Voldemort. > James and Lily studied alchemy and used the Sorcerer's > Stone, to produce as much gold as thy and the order needed. > As another thought, Just as the Flamels used the SS to > extend their lives, the Potters may have also have > attempted to achieve immortality {SS pg 53 Hagrid -- > "CAR CRASH!" roared Hagrid, "How could a car crash kill > Lily and James Potter? It's an outrage!" } > I always wondered about that line.... > > > tinglinger > who has more theories on James and Lily and the Sorcerer's > Stone in potterplots > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots I always wondered about that line, too. Of course, it could mean that being wizards, they used apparition or the floo network and did not ride in cars. However, I wonder if they were studying ways to become "immune" to the AK curse? That would have been invaluable in the war with LV. Furthermore, that could explain the "ancient magic" Lily used to protect Harry. How does this connect with the gold? I dunno. Perhpas it is a direct connection with the Stone. Perhaps it was "venture capital" or payment in advance but they were killed before it was delivered? The exciting thing is I'm sure we will find out! Julie From lexical74 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 21:58:42 2005 From: lexical74 at yahoo.com (Brian Brinkman) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:58:42 -0000 Subject: Predictions and Poll Answers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130699 1. Death(s)? For the book to be believable, there must be more than one on both sides: Draco seems a tragic character. His death is surely near. For his tragedy to be complete, there should be no redemption this side of the veil. Fudge (he's got no friends) The Grangers (they'd see more of their kid within the Catholic doctrine of Communion of the Saints...)--they're toast. Dumbledore. He will be removed from active duty, but he is somehow different and will be reachable. 2. The identity of the half-blood prince is one unknown to us, otherwise finding him wouldn't be an adventure worthy of a book title. 3. Lily's secret: She was gay. Just kidding. Actually, her secret is that she orchestrated her and James's deaths after a long talk with DD about the prophecy. She had to leave James out of the loop. 4. DADA teachers? Dumbledore. He hasn't had enough moments. 5. Romance for Harry? Cho, who will come to her senses. Luna won't be over Ronald yet. 6. New minister of magic? Someone unnamed who will annoy the good side. Madame Bones is too rational to succeed. 7. Bowl? The same pensieve in books IV and V, only this time showing Voldemort trying to kill Harry with the AK. The memory is from Lily, who hurriedly deposited it before dying. 8. AP for Harry? Yes, but only because of DD's intervention. 9. AP for Neville? No. Let the guy concentrate on his strengths. 10. Harry's owls? Just enough to slide by. Predictions: JKR will milk the R/H thing for all it's worth. Nothing satisfying for R/H-ers will happen in book 6. In book seven, perhaps even by the end of book 6, Shacklebolt will become the headmaster at Hogwarts. He didn't say, "It's what I'd do" when discussing prefects in book five for nothing. Hermione will have a major falling out with Hagrid. Someone's got to tell the guy to get his act together! Percy will live to be embarrassed about his actions in OOTP. Unfortunately, his embarrassment will turn to guilt following one of the deaths. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 22:07:59 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:07:59 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the Strategist / Dumbledore Knows... In-Reply-To: <1eb.3cf3e1cb.2fdf4b4d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130700 >>Betsy Hp: >snip< >Dumbledore himself can do nothing or he will be under immediate suspicion.< >>Eileen: >I just thought that since he had Sirius with him in the castle, he could have done something very simple, such as hiding him somewhere or sending him off somewhere by magical means, and just leaving the 'prison' door open.< Betsy Hp: There's an assumption that Dumbledore's freeing of Sirius would go unnoticed and unremarked, and I think that's a dangerous assumption to make. (One Dumbledore would hesitate to rely on!) For one, Hogwarts is crawling with ghosts of varying degrees of loyalty, I'm sure. For another, there are portraits everywhere, and while I do think the headmaster portraits are under certain obligations of secrecy, I doubt the rest of the portraits are. (Hogwarts secrets have a tendency to get out, and I'm of the opinion that the portraits are prime suspects.) Plus, Sirius Black had attacked and terrified a portrait (the Fat Lady) so I doubt the portraits would be all that thrilled to assist in his escape, even by just keeping mum. >>Eileen: >Why would Dumbledore be immediately under suspicion? He provided (at least some of) the evidence that sent Sirius to Azkaban in the first place (and - guessing here - I imagine he tipped Fudge off about Sirius' whereabouts after Godric's Hollow). The only one who might give him away is Snape, and although Snape is really mad at him, I'm sure Dumbledore knows he wouldn't do so.< Betsy Hp: I agree that Snape wouldn't snitch. He doesn't, after all, when Dumbldore drops the hint at how the escape was accomplished (the "two places at once" comment). But if it was obvious that it was an inside job (an unlocked door, for example) than the headmaster of the school could well be questioned. Another thought I've had is that the dementors may have been able to follow Sirius. They came after him when he was in dog form, so his disguise is no longer of use. And they managed to figure out he was by the lake. They probably use a sort of spiritual or psychic sniffing out, rather than an actual scent, but Sirius flying away on Buckbeak may well have killed any chance of the dementors following after him. Dumbledore would obviously know if this was the case, that flight was the best way to escape, so he may have realized that Buckbeak was Sirius' only chance. >>Betsy Hp: >snip< I agree with Michael that Harry's presence very nearly screwed the entire plan. >I think the obstacles and the mirror were a very cleverly set up trap, and Harry was *never* supposed to be involved.< >>Eileen: >He would have been confident of catching Quirrell in the trap...but he didn't need to, did he, as he already knew Quirrell was involved. Presumably he was out to catch the older more powerful Death Eater as well, and there was always the chance that this might turn out to be Voldemort...how did he think he might achieve this?< Betsy Hp: By setting up a difficult enough labyrinth that Quirrell turned to his Death Eater sponser for help, but making it beatable enough that the two thought it worth entering the trap. The genius of the obstacles, IMO, was the very different skill types needed to complete each task. Hermione even comments on the logic puzzle being able to stump (or *trap*) many powerful wizards. "This isn't magic -- it's logic -- a puzzle. A lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an ounce of logic, they'd be stuck in here forever." (SS scholastic paperback p.285) Quirrell, as an involved professor, may well have had some hints of what skills were required and so realized that he couldn't surmount them himself. (He's young enough, I think, to have been a recent Hogwarts' graduate, so I think Dumbledore would be quite aware of Quirrell's skills.) >>Eileen: >I think there are some reasonable grounds here for considering that Dumbledore might have thought the three friends would get involved.< Betsy Hp: Except they very nearly died, several times. The Devil's Snare came very close to strangling Ron and Harry to death. And even though Hermione knew what it was, she completely lost her head on how to defeat it. Honestly, if Dumbledore had expected the three to face the Devil's Snare wouldn't he have encouraged Professor Sprout to give a fairly intense class on what to do if caught by the plant? Hermione only recognized what it was and what it liked. Harry made an educated guess that fire would repel it, but I didn't get the impression that this was taught to them at all. And Ron is good at chess, yes. But he was hit so hard in the head he was actually knocked out. He could well have died. And that's with playing the game properly. Plus, after facing Quirrell, Harry was unconscious for *three days*. That's a long time for a kid to be out. Dumbledore tells Harry that "the effort involved nearly killed you. For one terrible moment there, I was afraid it had." (ibid p.297) And even Hermione mentions, "Dumbledore was so worried --" (ibid p.301) while Harry was in his little coma. If the labyrinth had been set up for Harry and friends to go through, I imagine it would have been made a little more kid- friendly. Finally, what on Earth does Dumbledore gain by sending Harry through the labyrinth? Why would Dumbledore, who does everything in his power to prevent Voldemort from getting his hands on Harry in every other book, set up a cozy little tete-a-tete between Voldemort and an eleven year old Harry? The mirror keeps Voldemort (or, IMO, the suspected powerful Death Eater) occupied until Dumbledore and gang can arrive to sweep him up. But once Harry releases the Stone, all bets are off. All the powerful Death Eater needs to do is overpower an eleven year old wizard and run. (Actually, Harry was lucky he met up with Voldemort -- he's the only wizard affected by that "no touching" protection Harry had.) And why, if Dumbledore is expecting Harry to go traipsing into the trap, would he leave the school with only a week or so left of term? If Dumbledore had been a second later Harry could well have died. (Dumbledore, as shown above, was actually afraid that he *was* too late.) It seems like a massive risk with no clear gain, IMO. >>Betsy Hp: >However I do disagree with the thought of Dumbledore being so cold blooded.< >>Eileen: >I guess I'm just thinking back to the way it used to be - Voldemort in power and seemingly unstoppable. Order members being picked off one by one. Dumbledore needing to find a weak link in Voldemort's armour. And he finds one - the prophecy. Perfect! If it hadn't existed, he'd have needed to invent it. And it gave him the opportunity to introduce a flaw into Voldemort's game plan, the fear and uncertainty of what Harry might do or become. And to achieve this, Dumbledore was prepared to put Harry through living with the Dursleys - and that seems to me to be rather cold-blooded.< Betsy Hp: So you're suggesting that Dumbledore actually *planned* on the Potters being killed? What do you base that on? It seems to me that Dumbledore did everything in his power to hide the Longbottoms and the Potters away. I also think that Dumbledore had no idea he was about to hear a prophecy nor did he think there was going to be a spy of Voldemort's lurking about to hear his job interview with someone he'd been planning to turn away. Yes, it was unfortunate that Harry's only blood relatives were so icky. But when Harry's life is put in the balance, I think the treatment at the Dursleys was worth keeping Harry alive. (I know there are *plenty* who disagree. ) Often times, especially in war, the practical solution seems incredibly cold-blooded. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that the decision maker *is* cold-blooded. (Think Churchill or Truman during WWII.) >>Eileen: >And I don't think having Sirius as Harry's guardian would have suited Dumbledore at all, either after Godric's Hollow or after Azkaban.< Betsy Hp: Certainly not after Godric's Hollow. Sirius' didn't have the power to keep Harry safe like Petunia Dursley could. However, Sirius does give Harry over to Hagrid, so it seems like he was willing to go along with Dumbledore's advice. Once Sirius was free of Azkaban he *was* Harry's guardian and I don't recall seeing any evidence that he interfered with Dumbledore's guardianship of Harry. If anything, Sirius seemed to be a big supporter of Dumbledore. So I'm not sure how Sirius acted as a fly in the ointment. And if Dumbledore really had wanted to get rid of Sirius all he'd have to do was send Sirius out on some dangerous mission somewhere. Sirius' was certainly game, and he had plenty of dangerous enemies. >>Chris (in post # 130691): I think DD knows this is the most reliable way because somehow he can see the future.< >There is a lot more going on with DD than we all can possibly imagine. It is my guess that he even knows the outcome of this war. I think he may even know which one will die, Harry, LV, or both.< Betsy Hp: This is my absolute *least* favorite way of viewing Dumbledore. I hate, "Dumbledore the Omniscient". Because it takes away all of the coolness that is Dumbledore to my mind. I love the idea (and I think there's the most evidence for it, IMO) that Dumbledore is a keen observer in the same vein as Ms. Marple or Hercule Poirot of Agatha Christie fame. Honestly, how often are criminals simply amazed at what Poirot or Marple picked up simply by observing? Perhaps Dumbledore spotted Harry and Hermione hiding while he and Fudge and all walked down to Hagrid's hut. Perhaps he caught a glimpse of Harry and Buckbeak through the window while Harry was convincing Buckbeak to follow him. There's *tons* of explanations that don't rely on strange and mysterious powers. We *know* that Dumbledore is quick on his feet. We saw that in chpt. 27 in OotP when we knew that Dumbledore had been caught by surprise with evidence that Harry had been running an illegal school club. If Dumbledore was seriously a time traveler that already expected Umbridge's charge... it takes away the entire tension of that scene. And really, I don't think there's *anything* in the books that suggests Dumbledore has that particular power. If anything, the end of OotP showed us how very *human* Dumbledore is. Quite capable of making mistakes, and quite capable of heartily regretting them. Betsy Hp From labmystc at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 22:04:01 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (labmystc) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:04:01 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130701 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * S * P * O * I * L E * R * * * * * * * * * * * * * I've watched the screensaver over and over again, and viewed it from every angle imaginable. Here's my take on the cover art from the Bloomsbury Screensaver. I'm going to take it in portions and that way my theories don't get jumbled up. (1) On the adult version, there is a battered copy of an Advanced Potions text-book. I assume that our favorite trio will all take Advanced Potions in their sixth year at Hogwarts. Though Ron has made do with secondhand books in the past, this copy looks extremely old and well-worn. This leads me to believe it is a reference to Snape and that this is his textbook from when he was in school. I believe that a great deal of HBP will focus on Snape and why he has the issues that he does. I have another theory that I will describe in a second. (2) The ring: I have looked at this particular picture from all angles like many people on here have, and these are my conclusions: The crest in the back is the symbol of Slytherin, a snake forming the letter "S." As I explained in another post, I believe DD to be the HBP so I don't think that it belongs to the HBP. I think it belongs to LV, the sole remaining descendant of Salazar Slytherin. If you look closely in the right-hand corner, it even looks like there may be a hooded figure on the ring, LV perhaps? The slash down the center of the ring is Harry's scar, and since it is over top of the crest, this may be a foreshadowing of Harry's victory over LV. (3) The arms: As most people have said, it seems the owner of the left arm is much younger than that of the right arm. I believe the younger of the two is Harry's and the older one is Dumbledore's. The rings of fire surrounding their hands indicate a binding magical contract between the two. More on that in a minute... (4) The boat and the pensieve: Green light is spilling from the pensieve, and the boat is surrounded by it as well. The only thing we have associated with green light so far is the Avada Kedavra curse, and imminent death. I like the idea several people have mentioned that the boat reminds them of the one that crosses the river Styx, ferrying souls into the underworld. This is where I tie it all together to form an idea. I think more spoiler space is required. * * * * * * * * * * * * * I mentioned in an earlier post that the only way for Harry to defeat LV was to somehow gain DD's powers. I believe the art foreshadows this: A binding magical contract between DD and Harry, where DD through his death transfers all of his powers, memories, and thoughts (rep. by pensieve)into Harry. Harry then possesses every bit of magic he would ever need to defeat LV, and win in the end. Just my humble thoughts...feel free to laugh, ridicule, and cruciatus me to death :-) Chris From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 14 22:20:15 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:20:15 -0000 Subject: My thoughts on the halfblood prince. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130702 I've been thinking about the identity of the HBP. Everyone seems so concerned about it because they think he is going to play a role in the story. I'm not so sure thats true. Most of the other titles in the HP series are merely things that serve as a catalyst for the story, but without being overly central to Harry. I think the HBP is going to serve a similar function. My opinion on the half blood prince is this: I think the HBP is a story, piece of history, or Allegory that Harry is going to learn about in the next book. A story of a man who will have been put in a similar situation to Harry as the victim of a prophecy and beat it. I think Harry is going to draw upon that story for strength. An example he can follow and maybe even get some ideas from. How will he learn the story? Maybe Hermione or Binns will tell him about it, but I personally think that based on the art of the books that Dumbledore is going to tell him the tale. I think that DD is going to be taking Harry under his wing to learn some special skills and I think the story is going to be part of it. Anyway, thats what I think. phoenixgod2000 From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 22:38:54 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:38:54 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130703 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, > write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters > or characteristics of new character for full credit. > > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Vernon Dursley > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Remus Lupin > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily is a pureblood, she was adopted by her parents who thought they couldn't have children, but they didn't know she was a witch. Petunia is the Evans' natural "surprise" child. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Severus Snape > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Mad-Eye Moody > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's Pensieve > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, Snape will finally get the DADA position > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, see above reason > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 5 - DADA, Potions, Transfiguration, Charms, and Care of Magical Creatures (with DADA being the only O) > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. > > 1. Snape will appear to have turned traitor during HBP, leading to his leaving his position at Hogwarts. 2. Harry's "happy exit" from the Dursleys will be to attend Bill and Fleur's wedding 3. Hermione will finally get somewhere with SPEW, with the Hogwarts elves choosing to come to the aid of the Order. 4. Hedwig will be severely injured or killed. 5. Luna and Ron will date, but Ron only so he can make Hermione jealous. Tammy, who finally decided to join in the fun. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 22:39:48 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:39:48 -0000 Subject: Byatt and Rowling (was re: Occlumency and Spies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130704 lupinlore wrote: > > In my opinion, she is on the firmest ground when she criticizes > concrete elements of Rowling's writing. For instance, she is > correct that the whole explanation about Harry, the Dursleys, and > Dumbledore has been poorly done and extremely unconvincing. She is > also definitely correct that Rowling is derivative, often > extraordinarily so. Finally, I think she is right that Rowling > doesn't do a very good job of conveying sweeping issues of light and > darkness -- in large part because the chief villain is such a comic > book moustache-twister and his minions such clumsy bunglers. > I completely disagree with that. For one thing it's really funny that Byatt, whose own writing after all is an elaborate play with quotations and allusions (which is surely a kind of derivation) and whose creative method owes its existence to such authors as Eco for example accuse someone of being "derivative". Now, really. "Possession" and "Angels and Insects" is a derivation par excellence. Which is why they are so good and popular. As for "sweeping issues of light and darkness" -- I am not sure by the way that Byatt cares much for them herself. She complains about the absence of mystery for the most part. About JKR's complete indifference to the supernatural. This much is true I suppose, but I for one don't regard it as a shortcoming. Byatt says that the HP books are written: "for people whose imaginative lives are confined to TV cartoons, and the exaggerated (more exciting, not threatening) mirror-worlds of soaps, reality TV and celebrity gossip. Its values, and everything in it, are, as Gatsby said of his own world when the light had gone out of his dream, "only personal." Now, I have never in my life seen any TV cartoons which is why I probably fail to see the connection, but it is astonishing why someone like Byatt would pointedly ignore the obvious allusions to Macbeth, The Tempest, Dr. Faustus to name only few of great classic titles. The Order of the Phoenix is not about any "personal values" it raises the disturbing questions about the nature of authority and power, about the ontology of Evil. You may not like the way JKR portrays Voldemort, but his two-dimensionness is deliberate, it is not a lack of skill on her part. LV is not a *person* any more. He ceased to be one when he chose to become Lord Voldemort. Not overnight of course but by the time we made his acquaintance he already had been "much more than a man". In this JKR's moral message is indeed influenced by Christian ethic. In his search for immortality LV rejects his own humanity and embraces non-being instead. This is what DD meant by his "There are things worse than death". Non-being is surely worse. This is why he stressed the importance of Harry's being human. a_svirn From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 23:03:52 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:03:52 -0000 Subject: HBP bookcover and a new Prediction - Spoiler Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130705 Spoiler Spoiler HPB book cover invokes yet another New Prediction I settle into my easy chain and slip quickly into a deep trance. Suddenly sitting bolt upright my mouth opens and out comes the voice of Cassandra. "Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore will go into the chamber. The chamber of ancient secrets. Two will go in, but only one will return. They will discover the secret of LV. They will see the hand fasting between Tom Riddle and the Power of Darkness. Bond by chains of fire Tom is free no longer. The ring is the ring of dark power. The darkness has no name and no shame. It speaks only lies. >From the chamber DD will return no more. Harry will be taught the ancient secret of the Phoenix and he will return to the world above. He will now have the power that DD has taught him and must save the world and Tom Riddle. The ancient chamber must be destroyed. The time approaches." Tonks_op (ah.. hello.. where am I?? Guess I dozed off..) From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 23:12:27 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:12:27 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130706 >>Alla: >Yes, I DO blame a lot of his mistakes in OOP on his depression. I am not sure why it is so strange for you. IMO this house holds not only bad memories, but horrible memories for Sirius, since he run away from home and never looked back.< Betsy Hp: It's strange to be because Sirius chose to go back to his house. He "offered it to Dumbledore". (OotP scholastic hardback p.79) And he's only been there, what a month? Maybe? On the outside? And with an entire gaggle of Weasleys there to help chase the Black ghosts away. Seems like an awfully quick slide to me. Especially when he seemed so eager and enthusiastic at the end of GoF, a mere month or so ago. And then he's so incredibly cruel to Harry. For no real reason. "You're less like your father than I thought, he said finally, a definite coolness in his voice. "The risk would've been what made it fun for James." [...] "Well, I'd better get going, I can hear Kreacher coming down the stairs," said Sirius, but Harry was sure he was lying. "I'll write to tell you a time I can make it back into the fire, then, shall I? If you can stand to risk it?" (ibid p.305) I mean, wow! Sirius really knows how to hit Harry, and he seems to have no qualms about doing so. All because Harry didn't want to risk Sirius coming to Hogsmeade? Talk about a lame reason to be so cruel. It's illogical behavior and beyond mere depression, IMO. >>Alla: >I found his spiral to be perfectly logical and understandable without drugs or alcoholism ( I really would like to see more canon evidence on this one, actually. NO, not the sign of Sirius being drunk once, but the signs of him being an alcoholic).< Betsy Hp: Read the Redhen post. http://www.redhen-publications.com/MansBestFriend.html It goes into more detail. There's not any hard canon, IMO, to back up Sirius being an alcoholic, though having been around alcoholics while they're drinking I can attest to their sliding maturity and their cruelty to those they love. I'm honestly not married to the theory, but it goes towards explaining a lot, IMO. (As does the Sirius is being drugged theory.) >>Alla: >Oh, and I also do not think that Sirius "confused" Harry and James that much.< Betsy Hp: No. After their little fireside chat I think Harry realizes that Sirius really *doesn't* confuse him with James. As per Sirius, Harry doesn't measure up to his father. >>Juli >...I don't think that Sirius tries to mold Harry into James, he sees they are a lot alike but he clearly differences them. Sure Sirius would love to get James back, but he knows it's not possible, he knows the only link he's got to his best friend is Harry. But he also sees Harry as his "son", someone he's always looking out for, and yes, someone he loves more than anyone.< Betsy Hp: Not only does Sirius see the differences between Harry and James, he uses those differences to whip Harry with. Not the act of a loving father. Possibly the act of an alcoholic or someone under the influence of those drugs Harry read about. (ibid pp. 383-384) And I would say by chalking up Sirius' strange behavior (the cruelty, the lack of help and/or sympathy when Harry tells him he's afraid he's going mad, the pointless digging at Snape) to either his being drugged or his being an alcoholic is actually speaking *up* for Sirius. Because if Sirius becomes so very cruel and hot-headed merely by staying in a house he hates, a house he *volunteered* to the Order, it doesn't say much for his strength of character. But if he's suffering from a disease, or even more excusably he's being maliciously drugged, well... doesn't that give Sirius an out? It turns him from a rather pathetic little man, kicking at children because he's bored and unhappy, into a tragic figure, drugged into a mindset not his own. IMO, anyway. Betsy Hp From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Tue Jun 14 23:53:34 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:53:34 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130707 >Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > >1. Who will be the most major character to die? Definitely Charlie Weasley, probably killed fighting giants in Romania. But also someone more major in the plot ? Professor McGonagall and/or Lupin. >2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," >describe more.) I'm divided here between Caradoc Dearborn (Caradoc is part of a Welsh legend who married King Arthur's daughter, was bitten by a snake and went into hiding for 12 ? if I remember rightly - years.) and a character from the dim and distant past. JKR said that there was a graveyard somewhere in the Hogwarts grounds, I think that if it is a historical figure he could be buried there. If the Old Lion Guy is the HBP, then it's either a description of Caradoc or a description of a portrait probably hanging in Hogwarts somewhere. >3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated >and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I don't think Lily had a big secret, but I think there is a big secret connected to Lily ? see predictions at the bottom. >4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Snape finally becomes the DADA teacher, due to the fact that we are now in a war situation and he knows better than anyone how the Death Eaters and LV attack and what defences are needed against them. >5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Tricky. There's a temptation to say Luna, but she fancies Ron not Harry. I think he's more likely to have a fling with someone like Susan Bones, but end up treating her badly because he is angry and getting angrier. I think the only girl who can really hack Harry's anger is Ginny, I think they will get closer in this book and get together either at the end of this book or in book 7. >6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic Amelia Bones. >7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? I don't think it's a pensieve. I think that it is something we have not yet been introduced to and I think it relates to or belongs to the HBP and is probably going to be found in a tomb. >8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, and do better at it because there is a new teacher. >9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. >10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He failed History of Magic. But got Divination, Astronomy, Transfiguration, Herbology, DADA, Potions and Charms ? which makes 7. However the number of possible exams is difficult to judge, as others have got 12, so Harry got at least 7. >Predictions (0-10 points each): >Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > 1) Bill Weasley plays an important role as a curse breaker. Re the graveyard at Hogwarts ? he breaks a curse on a tomb there. 2) We discover that either or both, Lily and James worked in the department of mysteries as an unspeakable. 3) Harry kills someone. Not sure if it's a death eater, or accidentally, someone from his own side, which would really pile on the angst. 4) The big secret connected to Lily is that she is stored as a memory in Harry's eyes, in a similar way to how Tom Riddle stored himself in the diary. We may not discover this until book 7 in which case, will the points be awarded posthumously? :-) 5) I think in this book, Harry is severely tempted by the dark side and it starts to eat away at him. At some point in the book, Harry will be under a sort of house arrest, guarded by members of the Order under Dumbledore's instructions, to try and stop him doing something stupid. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 00:41:08 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Gold In-Reply-To: <42AE5A98.7050400@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20050615004109.23951.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130708 heather the buzzard wrote: Where on earth did Harry's gold come from? I still like the idea from about a year ago. I do not remember who came up with it so appologies to the brilliant mind. It came about, iirc, from a comparison of Maurauders age and current kids. I do not remember the complete discussion, like I said, but JP and SB were compared to Gred and Forge. The money comes from the ......nose biting teacups!!!! moonmyyst --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 15 00:46:08 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:46:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Gold Message-ID: <12f.5f38cc92.2fe0d450@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130709 In a message dated 6/14/2005 7:42:02 PM Central Standard Time, moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com writes: heather the buzzard wrote: Where on earth did Harry's gold come from? JKR said that James inherited his money and because of this he didn't need a high paying job. IMO that sounds like James inherited a very large amount of money that was left to Harry. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 15 00:56:46 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:56:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > >>Alla: > Betsy Hp: > It's strange to be because Sirius chose to go back to his house. > He "offered it to Dumbledore". (OotP scholastic hardback p.79) And > he's only been there, what a month? Maybe? On the outside? And > with an entire gaggle of Weasleys there to help chase the Black > ghosts away. Seems like an awfully quick slide to me. Especially > when he seemed so eager and enthusiastic at the end of GoF, a mere > month or so ago. Gerry To me this is completely logical. He is now about two years out of Azkaban. One year of trying to look after Harry, a couple of months of delicious freedom in a warm, sunny, climate and then back in another kind of prison, where he also feel completely useless. He is still a fugitive, still on the run. And now also with a lot of time on his hand to brood, in an environment that is 'perfect' for it. Betty > I mean, wow! Sirius really knows how to hit Harry, and he seems to > have no qualms about doing so. All because Harry didn't want to > risk Sirius coming to Hogsmeade? Talk about a lame reason to be so > cruel. It's illogical behavior and beyond mere depression, IMO. Gerry Well, twelve years in Azkaban do strange things to a person. I also think that Sirius never really got how truly dangerous and evil Umbridge is. He clearly understands the danger of Voldemort, and was very anxcious that Harry did not take unnessesary risks in GoF because of the DE at Hogwarts. But Umbridge... I think he takes a schoolboy attitude to her. Just a teacher with a chip on her shoulder, fun to get around her... He is very wrong ofcourse. When LV is concerned he does take everyting very seriously. He is very upset when he hears that Snape has cancelled the lessons. > And I would say by chalking up Sirius' strange behavior (the > cruelty, the lack of help and/or sympathy when Harry tells him he's > afraid he's going mad, the pointless digging at Snape) to either his > being drugged or his being an alcoholic is actually speaking *up* > for Sirius. Because if Sirius becomes so very cruel and hot-headed > merely by staying in a house he hates, a house he *volunteered* to > the Order, it doesn't say much for his strength of character. But > if he's suffering from a disease, or even more excusably he's being > maliciously drugged, well... doesn't that give Sirius an out? It > turns him from a rather pathetic little man, kicking at children > because he's bored and unhappy, into a tragic figure, drugged into a > mindset not his own. IMO, anyway. Gerry I don't think he is alcoholic or being drugged. I think his story is tragic enough as it is. As far as his lack of help when Harry is afraid to go mad is concerned: I think this touches very closely to the information Sirius promised Dumbledore not to give, and that Sirius simply did not know how to comfort Harry without saying too much. Gerry From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 01:25:06 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:25:06 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130711 > >>Alla wrote earlier: > > >Yes, I DO blame a lot of his mistakes in OOP on his depression. I > am not sure why it is so strange for you. IMO this house holds not > only bad memories, but horrible memories for Sirius, since he run > away from home and never looked back.< > > Betsy Hp: > It's strange to be because Sirius chose to go back to his house. > He "offered it to Dumbledore". (OotP scholastic hardback p.79) And > he's only been there, what a month? Maybe? On the outside? And > with an entire gaggle of Weasleys there to help chase the Black > ghosts away. Seems like an awfully quick slide to me. Especially > when he seemed so eager and enthusiastic at the end of GoF, a mere > month or so ago. Alla: Umm, he offered the house to Dumbledore. He did not, as far as I remember anyway, offered to stay locked up in the said house. There is no "regular" time frame during which person can slip into depression,as far as I know. The house is a living reminder of very unhappy times in Sirius' life, IMO. I am not surprised at all. Betsy: > And then he's so incredibly cruel to Harry. For no real reason. I mean, wow! Sirius really knows how to hit Harry, and he seems to have no qualms about doing so. All because Harry didn't want to risk Sirius coming to Hogsmeade? Talk about a lame reason to be so cruel. It's illogical behavior and beyond mere depression, IMO. Alla: NO, I think because Sirius longed to spend time outside WITH Harry, because he wanted to be helpful somehow , just as he was in GoF. And NO, depressed person's behaviour is not always logical,as far as I know. Sirius was not always at his best with Harry in OOP, but frankly under circumstances I am surprised he managed to do as well as he did. Please allow me to quote Phoenixgod, whose posts I always adore and whose opinion of Sirius in OOP sums up mine perfectly. Phoenixgod in 130668: " Sirius is a hero. he survived in a prison that's left everyone else a gibbering wreck. He did it through willpower and the same stubborness that caused him to leave a family that held disgusting beliefs that he disagreed with. He stuck with friends in a war that had families turning on each other. he joined a group dedicated to a fight he didn't have to participate in since his blood would have shielded him. He did the best he could with the time he had. Was he the worlds most mature person? Maybe not, but he didn't have the decade of life experience that everyone else around him did. He tried to work with what he could to protect the teenager he loved until he was locked away again by someone he trusted. He was left to twist and molder while others took on important jobs with the order and with Harry. It ate at him over the span of a year, but when Harry needed him, he tried to be there for him the best as he could and when Harry was in trouble he came running. Sirus was locked in a prison he didn't earn for crimes he didn't commit. He suffered a fate that would have left any other member of the order a drooling basketcase and came out of it fighting. Sirius is a hero who gave everything he had to the cause and to Harry. You can't ask for more than that." > Betsy Hp: > And I would say by chalking up Sirius' strange behavior (the > cruelty, the lack of help and/or sympathy when Harry tells him he's > afraid he's going mad, the pointless digging at Snape) to either his > being drugged or his being an alcoholic is actually speaking *up* > for Sirius. Because if Sirius becomes so very cruel and hot- headed > merely by staying in a house he hates, a house he *volunteered* to > the Order, it doesn't say much for his strength of character. Alla: Should we really start talking about Snape here? :-) Snape taunted Sirius just as much as Sirius did , IMO. They were not on their most mature behaviour, IMO, but were you expecting Sirius NOT to answer Snape's taunts? That would be really expecting too much, IMO. As to alcoholism and drugs, well, not that I am seriously opposed to them, but as you said yourself - there is really no canon to back it up ( at least there is possible hint for drugs, but not for alcoholism, IMO), therefore I cannot adopt it for now. And as Gerry said, I consider Depressed!Sirius who struggled to be helpful to the Order and to be helpful to his Godson by telling him what he needed to hear, but could not because Dumbledore forbade him, to be tragic enough without adding alcoholism or drugging to the mix. Just my opinion, Alla. From grega126 at aol.com Wed Jun 15 01:33:31 2005 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:33:31 -0000 Subject: Ending the series (was Dept. of Mysteries, "Love" room.) In-Reply-To: <42A7B0F7.3010805@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: Harry's death might be necessary in order to 'bring down Voldemort with him', or something like that. JKR has had years, and years, and years to figure out exactly how she wanted to word that prophecy. I choose to believe that she specifically did not say that a sacrifice would be required to rid the world of evil. She did not say that the hero of the story was going to give his life to kill the bad guy. She said neither can live while the other survives. So Voldemort stops surviving, Harry's gravy. I don't think DD's going to make it. If I had to guess, he'll pull and Obi-Wan Kenobi kind of thing and sacrifice himself so that Harry can get the time he needs to be ready. I think he's going to bite it in this next book. From Ch. of of PS/SS we know that Voldemort's first reign of terror was 11 years. We know from PoA that Voldemort's gonna be, "greater and more terrible than ever before." He's only got 2 years left to be greater and more terrible, when the first time around he was so terrible that 14 years after he was gone people still shudder at his name. I think Hagrid's sentiment of, (paraphrasing) "so long as we've got DD we'll be ok." I don't think he's alone in thinking that. I think if Voldemort kills him, that'll go along way to magnifying his terror. Greg "Harry's got to live" From electrawman2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 02:32:31 2005 From: electrawman2 at yahoo.com (electrawman2) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:32:31 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- email entry to Tiger, too In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130713 All right, I'll de-lurk, I can't help myself. Hello to all. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Maybe Dumbledore, but most probably Molly Weasley and definitely Peter Petigrew. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Griffyndor, who may be the OLG. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I'm so sure I'm right on this one that I won't post it. *sigh* 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Someone new. Perhaps The OLG. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Parvati Patil and/or Susan Bones, but he'll end up with Ginny. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? "O" in DADA and COMC, both written and practical. "E" in Transfiguration ; "A" in Astronomy; either "O" or "E" in Potions and whatever's lower than "A" in both Divination and History of Magic Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. The first chapter will pertain to the Voldemort's successful experiment. 2. Harry will survive Voldemort at the end because PP will repay his life-debt. 3. Snape will be irrevocably compromised and will become DADA teacher in the 7th book. 4. The fourth-floor mirror (the one Fred and George say is blocked) will play a role, as will the Hand of Glory 5. Nott will be a good guy and Neville's getting his own wand will drastically improve his magic performance Electrawman2 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 03:52:37 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 03:52:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130714 Alla: > As to alcoholism and drugs, well, not that I am seriously opposed to > them, but as you said yourself - there is really no canon to back it > up ( at least there is possible hint for drugs, but not for > alcoholism, IMO), therefore I cannot adopt it for now. Alla: OK, I decided to reread my post and realised that I REALLY need to make one correction here. Of course I meant to say " not that I am seriously opposed to them as the reason of Sirius' misery". I don't embrace drugs and alcoholism per se. :-) Sorry about replying to my own post, but could not let this one go. ;-) From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 15 04:30:06 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 04:30:06 -0000 Subject: Ending the series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130715 greg_a126" wrote: > JKR has had years, and years, and > years to figure out exactly how she > wanted to word that prophecy. I > choose to believe that she specifically > did not say that a sacrifice would be > required to rid the world of evil. > She did not say that the hero of > the story was going to give his life > to kill the bad guy. Of course the prophecy is somewhat ambiguous, Rowling is going to write 7 books, she's not about to tell you in book 5 how the entire series is going to end. > She said neither can live while the > other survives. So Voldemort stops > surviving, Harry's gravy. And if Harry stops surviving Voldemort is gravy, and if neither survives the prophecy is also fulfilled, the only thing we know for sure is that both can't survive. > I don't think DD's going to make it. I agree, but I don't think Dumbledore will die until the end of the book, in the meantime he will teach defense against the dark arts himself. I also think Percy will be deeply involved in the plot to kill Dumbledore. In the end I don't think Harry is going to make it either. Eggplant From PerditaGranger at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 07:07:37 2005 From: PerditaGranger at gmail.com (perdita_granger) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:07:37 -0000 Subject: Hermione's social skills (was: poor Grangers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130716 wrote: > Hermione is an excellent example of the only child. > Book smart but lacking in any social skills what so ever, > understandable, who would she ever practice on? I think that Hermione's lack of social skills has more to do with her intelligence than whether she has or doesn't have any siblings. (Personally, I think JKR could have kept the sister if she'd made her older, already away at university ;-) Judging by her academic success, she probably qualifies as profoundly gifted. That sets her apart from the average child her age almost as much as being that far in the other direction. When they're young, kids like her don't realize how differently others think. She'd understand things in a flash and be impatient with her peers when they needed things explained to them. And her peers would get tired of always feeling stupid when they're around her, so they'd start avoiding her, kind of in self-defense. She probably got along with her teachers and other adults a lot better than with her classmates, except of course for the adults who felt threatened by a child who knew more than she did. By the time she got to Hogwarts, she was probably used to her status as a "weird kid" and, though she might have had high hopes of changing her image, making new friends and finally fitting in, they probably included the old gifted standby of "and it won't be primary school any more, the other kids will be more mature," and disappointment when they're basically the same kids they were the previous spring, just with wands. Her social skills would still be more geared towards adults and she'd make many of the same mistakes, have many of the same misunderstandings. And the other kids would still take it personally when she knew more than they did, for "making them look bad," not realizing she wasn't thinking about them at all, only responding to the teacher who was asking the question. Despite being *intelligent*, Hermione is still *emotionally* young, perhaps even younger than many of her classmates. People have a very difficult time reconciling a child with an impressive vocabulary, who can talk like an adult about history or politics or whatever, with the fact that the child can still *react* like a child, with unreasonable expectations, emotional outbursts, resentful sulks, eagerness to please adults, etc. Hermione has actually done quite well for a profoundly gifted child. She's learned how to read other people fairly well, as evidenced by her understanding of Cho's complex emotions. She's remarkably patient with Harry's emotional outbursts and with putting up with teasing and taunting, perhaps through long practice. I can't help but expect her to have an academic understanding of psychology, but not necessarily be able to apply that understanding to herself; she'll still act like a sixteen- or seventeen-year-old in book 6. - Perdita Granger aka Hermiones_Sister -- the Mycroft of the Granger family "Dullard: someone who can open an encyclopedia or dictionary and only read what they'd planned to" From pfsch at gmx.de Wed Jun 15 08:11:33 2005 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:11:33 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "labmystc" wrote: > 3. The trio will become animagi. Harry will be a stag, Hermione will > be a unicorn, and Ron a weasel(fits the name right?) I like that one. Only wondering what might be the occasion that forces them to learn that complicated magic (for the Marauders it was Lupin's "dates" with the moon). And I presume that (since Jo said you can't chose your animagus form) the animagus form is the same as the patronus. So Hermione's got to be an otter. Goodbite setrok (http://www.setrok.de) From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 15 08:25:00 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 04:25:00 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ending the series Message-ID: <1f4.bc7ff42.2fe13fdc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130718 In a message dated 6/15/2005 2:58:01 AM Central Standard Time, eggplant107 at hotmail.com writes: I agree, but I don't think Dumbledore will die until the end of the book, in the meantime he will teach defense against the dark arts himself. I also think Percy will be deeply involved in the plot to kill Dumbledore. In the end I don't think Harry is going to make it either. Eggplant There are a couple of little bits in the books that make is seem like Harry does survive. This is from PS/SS. I will have to look up the other excerpt. Chapter 16 -- Through The Trapdoor In years to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting through the door at any moment. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 15 08:30:22 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:30:22 -0000 Subject: Green Light - SPOILERS - (Was Re: Was: Bloomsbury Screen Saver!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130719 S P O I L E R S P A C E **************************************************************** --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "labmystc" wrote: > The only thing we > have associated with green light so far is the Avada Kedavra curse, > and imminent death. I just had to pick this one up because I really don't think it is true. It is what I call a fannacy (geddit!). In the books there are plenty of things that glow green or involve green light (think of floo powder flames etc) - probably because green just is a good colour for magic. We fans often think of AK because it is much more significant. There are far more wonderful conclusions to be drawn from the premise that the above is true than if green light /could/ mean almost anything. Also, cross reference my (and others') exitement that the ring looks like it has lightning on it. This led me to several immediate conclusions before I realised I was guilty of fannacy somewhere along the line. It isn't that I don't think that there is anything in it - there very well could be - it is just that in our desperation to find significance we may leap to conclusions citing falsehoods as evidence. I love the speculations, but find it difficult when contingent things are treated as proven. Especially as I know I do it all the time! And if you are still not convinced of the terrible power of fannacy, chant the mantra 'Remember Mark Evans'. JMO, you understand. JLV From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 08:40:52 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:40:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore knows more than we give credit for In-Reply-To: <1ea.3ec2840c.2fe099d2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130720 > Chris (Labmystc@) wrote: > >I think DD knows this is the most reliable way because somehow he > >can see the future. > >snip< > >There is a lot more going on with DD than we all can possibly > >imagine. > > Eileen: > > Chris, what a great post! There's certainly a lot more going on than I imagined! > > Its possible that DD decided in advance of Buckbeak's execution, that he was > either going to go back himself later, or send someone else back, to rescue > Buckbeak, and was making sure extra time was provided for this. But in this > situation, where it is all still to happen in the future, so to speak, I can't > see why he would be amused, the amusement has to be retrospective. > And the foreknowledge about the trial suggests that moving backwards and > forwards in time may be a habit with him. > So he may be going back and/or forwards mentally, or physically, or both. > And if it was physical, his apparent invisibility ability (sorry!) would ensure > that he doesn't get seen.... Finwitch: Well, he *does* tell Harry that he doesn't need a cloak to become invisible - as early as PS... However, I'm not sure if Dumbledore knew in advance that Buckbeak was going to be rescued. He may have planned it, though. Not that he thought of a time-turner etc. at the time, and certainly not about sending Harry. Except that he DID know that Harry&Hermione had rescued Buckbeak, later. He knew that Harry had summoned Patronus to rescue them from Dementors - much like Lupin before sending Harry back in time... He tells them - 'maybe you manage to save yet another innocent life today' - he does not know whether it was Harry timeturned or NOT timeturned who saved Buckbeak, just that Harry DID rescue Buckbeak. As for Dumbledore using timeturner - how ELSE could he have had time to discuss with Sirius? As to Dumbledore knowing so much... Experience of 150 years, books, portraits, house-elves, legilimency, invisibility & timeturner and maybe he can even truly discuss with Fawkes and let's not forget the sorting hat. But he does NOT know everything, and even if he did figure things out due the timeturner, one must NOT attempt to change the past. I'd say that the result of 150 years of learning may well seem all- knowing to a boy who's only one tenth of his age... Finwitch From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Wed Jun 15 08:44:44 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:44:44 -0000 Subject: Harry's gold Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130721 We quite obviously don't know where Harry's inheritance came from; if it's important we will know ... but equally it might remain one of the Unsolved Mysteries of Our Time. However, wherever James and Lily got it from, there was clearly an oversupply. And they were often, one must assume, called away from home as members of the Order of the Phoenix. And they had a baby. Where did their House Elf go? Deborah, who wouldn't mind if it joined her household From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 15 12:02:02 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 05:02:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: <410-2200563151222156@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130722 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "labmystc" > wrote: > > > 3. The trio will become animagi. Harry will be a stag, Hermione will > > be a unicorn, and Ron a weasel(fits the name right?) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > I like that one. Only wondering what might be the occasion that forces > them to learn that complicated magic (for the Marauders it was Lupin's > "dates" with the moon). And I presume that (since Jo said you can't > chose your animagus form) the animagus form is the same as the > patronus. So Hermione's got to be an otter. > > Goodbite setrok (http://www.setrok.de) > > *********************************** Chancie: Actually, JKR said that Harry's energy will be concentrated on other things and he would not have time to study to be an animagus. Here is the link to the exact quote. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-pressclubtransc.html From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 15 13:45:11 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:45:11 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--Replies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130723 Neri: I have always took the "Voldemort's second-in-command" to be a complete fabrication, a typical Daily Prophet catch phrase. Pippin: Then what do you make of JKR's statement that the Lestranges were "sent" after the Longbottoms? Neri: The idea that a fresh student out of Hogwarts would become Voldemort's second-in-command in just one year sounds pretty absurd anyway, especially if he's a spy. Since when are spies made second-in-command? A second-in- command sits at HQ so he can, well, command, and the others should know him so they would, well, take his commands. But which DEs knew ESE!Lupin, and that he's the Big Boss' second-in-command? Pippin: Why "just one year"? Sirius was twenty-two when he was sent to Azkaban, so Lupin had been out of school four or five years already. Lafayette was commanding American forces in the Revolutionary War at a similar age, Joan of Arc was even younger. It's unusual but hardly absurd. In a sense *all* the Death Eaters are spies, since it's an undercover organization. Presumably there are code words or spells by which officers can identify themselves to DE's who don't know them. Only DE's know how to cast the Dark Mark, for example. If the DE's only knew Lupin by his code name, then they couldn't have spilled the beans on him. Neri: Karkaroff apparently didn't know. Snape didn't know either. He may have suspected, but apparently not enough to tell Dumbledore, and even in the Shack he only accused Lupin with helping Sirius, not with being a spy. Pippin: Snape could hardly accuse Lupin of spying on the order without blowing his cover -- and the Order's too. It's clear Snape believes that Lupin has been helping Sirius all along, though he never had proof. His objections date back to when Lupin was hired, before Lupin could have helped Sirius do anything. Snape certainly didn't conceal his suspicions from Dumbledore. Bella didn't know her own master was a halfblood. She might not know that Remus was a werewolf either. He doesn't socialize,and his identity was kept secret while he was in school. A very neat solution is to suppose that Voldemort used the codename "Wormtail" for his spy all along, so that the DE's never knew that Peter and Lupin were two different people.They're physically different of course, but the DE's are quite familiar with the uses of polyjuice potion. Karen: just wanted to comment on the above. The fact that Peter called LV 'The Dark Lord' was what convinced me that he was the spy. Only DEs call him 'The Dark Lord', every one else calls him 'You Know Who' or 'He Who Must Not Be Named' (apart from the very few who actaully call him Lord Voldemort). Pippin: Harry is not an accurate observer. Draco Malfoy refers to the 'Dark Lord' and so does Trelawney in True Seer mode. Nathaniel: As for Sirius, we don't really know how much he entertained the idea that Lupin was a spy. But it does seem unlikely that he had had more than just vague suspicions, or he wouldn't have so quickly come to the conclusion that Peter was the spy. Pippin: Sirius didn't tell us his reasoning, but we know he assumed that only he, James, Peter and Lily knew about the switch, and that Lupin didn't. In that case, only Peter could have told Voldemort about the switch, ergo Peter was the spy. But Sirius could have been wrong. The idea that Sirius only vaguely suspected Lupin loses credibility once we find out in OOP that there were others close to Lily and James. Presumably anyone in Moody's photo, barring the deceased, could have been the spy. There had to be some reason that Sirius specifically thought it was Lupin. Nathaniel: Hermione does not particularly seem to believe that Lupin is evil either. Pippin: I didn't say she does. What she believes is that some werewolves support Lord Voldemort. I was dealing with the objection, raised in the past, that werewolves would not join forces with the champion of the purebloods. Pippin From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 15 11:36:02 2005 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:36:02 -0000 Subject: Hermione's social skills (was: poor Grangers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130724 > Hermione has actually done quite well for a profoundly gifted child. > She's learned how to read other people fairly well, as evidenced by > her understanding of Cho's complex emotions. She's remarkably patient > with Harry's emotional outbursts and with putting up with teasing and > taunting, perhaps through long practice. I can't help but expect her > to have an academic understanding of psychology, but not necessarily > be able to apply that understanding to herself; she'll still act like > a sixteen- or seventeen-year-old in book 6. > > - Perdita Granger I agree but would go further. I think Hermione exhibits a high degree of emotional intelligence, not just in comparison to Harry and Ron, which might be expected, but also in comparison to other girls her age. The sheer embarrassment and confusion that is the daily lot of teenagers that age tends to make them pretty self-obsessed. Hermione by comparison demonstrates remarkable thoughtfulness and awareness of others. I'm thinking here particularly of her role of go between for Harry and Ron during Goblet of Fire and, as Perdita mentioned, the way she handles Harry's temper in OoTP. She's more than just book smarts. No matter clever she was I doubt Viktor Krum, her 'older man', would have been half so attracted to her if she'd been as silly and giggly as the other girls in the run-up to the Yule Ball. Hettiebe From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 15 12:37:19 2005 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:37:19 -0000 Subject: Not letting go of the past Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130725 When I was at school I suffered from an amount of bullying. I wasn't exceptional and, depending on how you quantify it, I think at some time everybody goes through this. Popular girls get called sluts; those judged to be geeks and nerds get ostracised; anyone who physically matures either earlier or later than the majority will get teased etc etc. As an adult the thing I find much harder to deal with is the bullying I handed out, even if I was just acting as part of a crowd. That which was done to me I really don't care about, I view it as all part of growing up. That which I did I still feel guilty about and can only hope that those on the receiving end have taken the same view that I have about it being part of life and are not seriously affected. So much for letting go of the past. What I really don't understand is the immaturity of Snape, Sirius, and, to a certain extent, Lupin in continuing their feuds from their schooldays. From my own personal experience I would think that they would want to move on and, after all, they are supposed to be on the same side now and the issues are life and death. Sirius could be said to be suffering from arrested emotional development because of the time spent in prison, but what is wrong with Snape? Is it because he has spent most of his adult life in a school that he has not progressed beyond the level of his students? This is a pretty frightening thought that children are being left in loco parentis with those no more capable of making reasoned judgements than they are. Hettiebe From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 15 11:40:26 2005 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:40:26 -0000 Subject: Harry's gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > We quite obviously don't know where Harry's inheritance came from; if > it's important we will know ... but equally it might remain one of the > Unsolved Mysteries of Our Time. > > However, wherever James and Lily got it from, there was clearly an > oversupply. And they were often, one must assume, called away from > home as members of the Order of the Phoenix. And they had a baby. > > Where did their House Elf go? > > Deborah, who wouldn't mind if it joined her household To expand on that argument, who was looking after baby Ron at the time? Perhaps they had a baby sitting ring or maybe Aberforth lulled them to all to sleep with the faint smell of goat. Hettiebe From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 15 13:48:09 2005 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:48:09 -0000 Subject: Why I don't believe DD will die until book 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130727 Looking at it from the point of view of how Harry (and therefore the reader) gets to know and understands what is going on, noone else seems to have Dumbledore's grasp of past and present events. Those that might be able to provide pieces of the jigsaw puzzle are either not available to Harry during the school year or have their own reasons (eg Snape) for not giving him the full information. Therefore, just for plot device, I don't see how he can be done away with when there is still another book to go. Hettiebe From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Wed Jun 15 12:06:11 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:06:11 -0000 Subject: Madam Hooch: Yellow Eyes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130728 pot_of_harry wrote: > > my question to anyone that is interested is: > > Why is Madam Hooche's eyes yellow? Chys: > I thought bird eyes right away, like she'd tried to transfigure as > an animagus and got caught in the morph. Sorry took so long to reply, been away for a while... I think yourself and Jazmyn could be right...probably a transformation that didn't quite end up as it should have, or maybe her eyes are permenantly transformed to her advantage. I am not sure which book, (I have been sifting through the pages of the first two books without any luck), but I remember Harry walking past McGonagall's class and overheard someone being turned into a badger and having red eyes for a while afterwards? Describing them as hawk like, might be a clue to her being animagus, but I am sure Rowling would have shown her as a hawk in the books if she was (i.e McGonagall and her turning into a cat). It would be interesting to know the dangers of transformation....or even the restricitons of it (like you said, maybe there is a time limit)? pot_of_harry From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 13:52:54 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:52:54 -0000 Subject: To all the lurkers who entered the HBP contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130729 Okay, you've officially de-lurked yourself and entered the bragging rights contest. Now, you have to stay de-lurked and contribute to the newsgroup. Welcome out of the broom closet, TK -- TigerPatronus From jmoses22002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 12:22:42 2005 From: jmoses22002 at yahoo.com (jmoses22002) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:22:42 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130730 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "labmystc" wrote: > S > * > P > * > O > * > I > * > L > E > * > R > (4) The boat and the pensieve: Green light is spilling from the > pensieve, and the boat is surrounded by it as well. > > Chris * S P O I L E R * A L E R T * I performed a print screen then zoomed in on the pensieve, and there seems to be the contour image of a serpent in the mist. Forgive me if I'm not the first one to bring this up. I find it dificult to keep up with posts. -jmoses22002 From ellydan at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 14:07:19 2005 From: ellydan at yahoo.com (Melete) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] To all the lurkers who entered the HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050615140720.98179.qmail@web54604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130731 --- tigerpatronus wrote: > > Okay, you've officially de-lurked yourself and > entered the bragging > rights contest. Now, you have to stay de-lurked and > contribute to the > newsgroup. > > Welcome out of the broom closet, > > TK -- TigerPatronus Looks around anxiously, I can't lurk again! Actually that is a fairly clever and funny thing to do. We'll have to see how well it works in the long run though. I will certainly make a more concentrated effort not to lurk. With Book 6 coming out so very soon I'm sure it will be easy for everyone to find something to discuss, niggle about, etc, once the book is in their hands. Amused, Ellyddan __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html From cubs9911 at aol.com Wed Jun 15 14:19:32 2005 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:19:32 -0000 Subject: JK Interview Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130732 I thought JKR was going to be interviewed today by Katie Couric on the Today show. Does anyone know anything about this? Did the interview happen? JR From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 14:45:06 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:45:06 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Emotional Intelligence (was: poor Grangers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130734 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hettiebe" wrote: > > Hermione has actually done quite well for a profoundly gifted child. > > She's learned how to read other people fairly well, as evidenced by > > her understanding of Cho's complex emotions. She's remarkably patient > > with Harry's emotional outbursts and with putting up with teasing and > > taunting, perhaps through long practice. I can't help but expect her > > to have an academic understanding of psychology, but not necessarily > > be able to apply that understanding to herself; she'll still act like > > a sixteen- or seventeen-year-old in book 6. > > > > - Perdita Granger > > I agree but would go further. I think Hermione exhibits a high degree > of emotional intelligence, not just in comparison to Harry and Ron, > which might be expected, but also in comparison to other girls her age. > The sheer embarrassment and confusion that is the daily lot of > teenagers that age tends to make them pretty self-obsessed. Hermione by > comparison demonstrates remarkable thoughtfulness and awareness of > others. I'm thinking here particularly of her role of go between for > Harry and Ron during Goblet of Fire and, as Perdita mentioned, the way > she handles Harry's temper in OoTP. > > She's more than just book smarts. No matter clever she was I doubt > Viktor Krum, her 'older man', would have been half so attracted to her > if she'd been as silly and giggly as the other girls in the run-up to > the Yule Ball. > > Hettiebe Daniel Goleman literally wrote the book on "Emotional Intelligence." I will name the characteristics of EQ and follow them with my opinion of Hermione. I am curious of what others think. Emotional Intelligence is defined as abilities such as... (1) being able to motivate oneself and persist in the face of frustrations --> I think Hermione demonstrates this in her continual pursuit of an answer to a question, such as going to the library on her own to research in detail topics/questions of interest; also demonstrated by her trying the use of a time-turner to learn even more. (2) to control impulse and delay gratification --> I cannot recall much of her needing to do this, perhaps because she does it so much it is not noticeable; I certainly will defer this to others with more canon knowledge than I (3) to regulate one's own moods and keep distress from swamping the ability to think --> I think we see Hermione doing this constantly. Her mood is very stable, with the occasional outburst but certainly within normal limits, or less than what would be expected for teenage girls his age. We also see this is PS/SS and her ability to think in the face of danger. (4) to empathize and to hope --> We see Hermione doing this continually, especially with Harry. So, in summary, I see Hermione as being high both in generalized intelligence, academic abilities, and emotional intelligence. She is still an adolescent with all the developmental tasks adolescents face. Like Hettibe said, others tend to expect Hermione to act like a young adult and when she doesn't, it is very noticeable. Julie From dorbandb at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 15:33:21 2005 From: dorbandb at yahoo.com (dorbandb) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:33:21 -0000 Subject: HBP:Cover:Spolier In-Reply-To: <20050613180358.76302.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > --- stardancerofas wrote: > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > ********************* > > > > Of all the names I've seen being presented as the > > possible 'older' man that 'Dumbledore' is holding hands with, I've > > yet to see this name: Nicolas Flamel. > > > Actually Nicolas Flammel is dead. JKR says so in her > website (under FAQ). > > Juli Hi Juli, As I'm a big fan of the notion that Flamel is not yet dead and will be critical to the outcome of the story, I went to check this out. Sorry, I couldn't find the specific faq that states this. I *think* I read them all... Could you/would you be so kind as to post the specifics? Appreciate it. Brian From ellydan at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 15:36:24 2005 From: ellydan at yahoo.com (Melete) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why I don't believe DD will die until book 7 In-Reply-To: <20050615142040.81064.qmail@web54609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050615153625.59585.qmail@web54605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130736 Staring in confusion at Yahoo trying to figure out where her message went. Ok let's try this again. > > > --- hettiebe wrote: > > > Looking at it from the point of view of how Harry > > (and therefore the > > reader) gets to know and understands what is going > > on, noone else seems > > to have Dumbledore's grasp of past and present > > events. That is definately a valid point. It does seem that most of the key bits of vital information do come from Dumbledore. Albeit most of the time the he drops the hint with a bit of circumlocution. It does seem with the end of the last book (OotP) Dumbledore is finally speaking more plainly and honestly with Harry. And with the covers of HBP all prominently featuring Dumbledore, it seems as if he will take a more proactive role in Harry's life. With that being said though we do know that pattern of JK's books since GoF have included at the climax a character death. Each character that has died has been more and more significant to Harry's life (it can be argued I'm sure otherwise). Also as many others have pointed out, following in many other story traditions the mentor figure bows out so that the hero may assume his mantle for the final battle. This leads us to Dumbledore dying either in the 6th or 7th book. Even with your argument of Dumbledore's centrality to Harry's knowledge and training, I still think there is a great possibility that Dumbledore will die at the end of book 6. It would certainly fill the irony quotient to have him die at the end of the book after he finally takes an even larger or at least more visible role in Harry's training and education. If JKR takes out (shudder horrible phrasing for me to use) Dumbledore at the end of 6, I feel it leaves book 7 to begin with an even more tenuous and interesting situation. The WW would be without its great hero and defender and realize even more what a desperate position they are in. Enter Harry having a book to find inner strength and true heroism within himself and not from one of his greatest outside sources --Dumbledore, his great father-figure/mentor. If JKR is to keep Dumbledore until just before the climax in book 7, it puts a great deal more pressure on that last bit of book to not only feature character growth but also exposition. Saying all that about how I interpret Dumbledore's possible demise, we will have to see in just a few weeks when we have HBP in our hands how it all ends. I know I won't be disappointed either way. Now I'm just succumbing to excitement again because it's a month away and the manager at the bookstore I work at is already assigning HP tasks. Ellyddan *crossing fingers that the message will not vanish like magic ink this time!* __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From ajroald at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 15:43:03 2005 From: ajroald at yahoo.com (Lea) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:43:03 -0000 Subject: JK Interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130737 I found the following article on http://www.veritaserum.com/ ~ NBC broadcast of JKR interview delayed The "Today" show co-host Katie Couric announced on the show two weeks ago that she would be interviewing JK Rowling on the show tomorrow morning. Unfortunately, the broadcast has been delayed, and Ms. Couric's interview is no longer set to air tomorrow. NBC did not provide a reason for the delay and also could not say when the interview will air when asked over the phone. The show is still accepting questions from fans for the interview, which can be submitted through their website. ~ Lea --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" wrote: > I thought JKR was going to be interviewed today by Katie Couric on the > Today show. Does anyone know anything about this? Did the interview > happen? > > > > JR From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 15 15:54:37 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:54:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JK Interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005201c571c2$892f74f0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130738 Hi, Are you saying that we can submit questions to the Today show web site? sherry -----Original Message----- From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com [mailto:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lea Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 8:43 AM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JK Interview I found the following article on http://www.veritaserum.com/ ~ NBC broadcast of JKR interview delayed The "Today" show co-host Katie Couric announced on the show two weeks ago that she would be interviewing JK Rowling on the show tomorrow morning. Unfortunately, the broadcast has been delayed, and Ms. Couric's interview is no longer set to air tomorrow. NBC did not provide a reason for the delay and also could not say when the interview will air when asked over the phone. The show is still accepting questions from fans for the interview, which can be submitted through their website. ~ Lea --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" wrote: > I thought JKR was going to be interviewed today by Katie Couric on the > Today show. Does anyone know anything about this? Did the interview > happen? > > > > JR Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 15 15:57:15 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:57:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JK Interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005401c571c2$e74b19e0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130739 Sherry now: my bad! Forgive the post with the improper formatting! I wasn't thinking and just shot off a response. i am sorry. I will go and iron my ears or something as punishment. Sherry --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" wrote: > I thought JKR was going to be interviewed today by Katie Couric on the > Today show. Does anyone know anything about this? Did the interview > happen? > > > > JR Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 16:22:05 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:22:05 -0000 Subject: Flamel is Dead (Was: Re: HBP:Cover: Spolier) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dorbandb" > Hi Juli, > As I'm a big fan of the notion that Flamel is not yet dead and will be > critical to the outcome of the story, I went to check this out. > Sorry, I couldn't find the specific faq that states this. I *think* I > read them all... > Could you/would you be so kind as to post the specifics? Appreciate > it. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/rumours_view.cfm?id=32 Nicolas Flamel is going to come to Hogwarts to teach potions Flamel has now died; Dumbledore explained in `Philosopher's Stone' that his old friend was going to choose death rather than allow his stone to fall into the wrong hands. ----------------- Hard to reinterpret that one, but I'm sure someone here will take a stab at it because JKR is sneaky, right? -Nora has fun with ritornelli From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 15 16:30:27 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP:Cover:Spolier Message-ID: <410-220056315163027687@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130741 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > --- stardancerofas wrote: > > > S > > > P > > > O > > > I > > > L > > > E > > > R > > > > > > S > > > P > > > A > > > C > > > E > > > ********************* > > > > > > Of all the names I've seen being presented as the > > > possible 'older' man that 'Dumbledore' is holding hands with, I've > > > yet to see this name: Nicolas Flamel. > > > > > > Actually Nicolas Flammel is dead. JKR says so in her > > website (under FAQ). > > > > Juli > > > Hi Juli, > As I'm a big fan of the notion that Flamel is not yet dead and will be > critical to the outcome of the story, I went to check this out. > Sorry, I couldn't find the specific faq that states this. I *think* I > read them all... > Could you/would you be so kind as to post the specifics? Appreciate it. > Brian > > ****************************************************** Chancie: I am obviously not Juli, but she is very right. JKR has said that Flamel is dead. Here is the full quote: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rumour: Nicolas Flamel is going to come to Hogwarts to teach potions JKR: Flamel has now died; Dumbledore explained in Philosophers Stone that his old friend was going to choose death rather than allow his stone to fall into the wrong hands. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You can visit JKR's offical site at : http://www.jkrowling.com I highly recommend checking it out, it has a lot of useful information on the books. From Cfitz812 at aol.com Wed Jun 15 16:38:44 2005 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:38:44 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130742 * S * P * O * I * L * E * R (sort of) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "labmystc" wrote: (parts deleted) > I mentioned in an earlier post that the only way for Harry to > defeat LV was to somehow gain DD's powers. I believe the art > foreshadows this: > > A binding magical contract between DD and Harry, where DD through > his death transfers all of his powers, memories, and thoughts (rep. > by pensieve)into Harry. Harry then possesses every bit of magic he > would ever need to defeat LV, and win in the end. > > Just my humble thoughts...feel free to laugh, ridicule, and cruciatus > me to death :-) > > Chris Now Claire: I just had a "duh!" moment reading your post (which is a good thing). It explains a couple things for me: (1) the thread throughout the books that DD is the only one Voldemort ever feared, and (2) DD allowing Harry to confront Voldemort by giving him enough information (or, rather, the benefit of his knowledge) to allow Harry to succeed. It makes sense, then, that DD transfers all he knows to Harry before he dies such that Harry is now the one to be feared. From imontero at iname.com Wed Jun 15 17:25:02 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:25:02 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 31 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130743 Finally I got the courage to present my predictions! >Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > >1. Who will be the most major character to die? Peter Pettigrew, a member of the Weasley clan and DD could also be a good candidate. >2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," >describe more.) It is going to be a new character, maybe a historical figure. In COS the Half-blood theme is introduced for the first time, it is logical that there is a story related to someone who took on himself to defend half-blood rights, etc >3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated >and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) It is the power she had in her eyes and that she passed to Harry. Harry will probably learn about it in HBP, but it could be in book 7. >4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character. It is always a new character and it will be the lion guy >5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny, who will remain the love of his life. I don't see Jo writing a serial kisser / dater Harry. >6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madam Bones or Mafalda Hopkins. >7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It is not a pensieve. It is something similar from which information can be reached, but not in the form of a memory like in the pensieve. Probably it will be the means Harry will use to reach the Half blood prince in the past? >8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? YES. >9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No, he'll study Advanced Herbology and will become the new Herbology professor when he finishes school. >10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All of them except History, Divination and maybe Astronomy >Predictions (0-10 points each): >Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question 1. Harry will return to the Quidditch team, but not as a captain, and Ginny will then become a chaser. 2. Ron will start to realize his feelings for Hermione; there will be some kind of resolve between those two. 3. Bill and Fleur will get married and this is possibly the reason why Harry will be having his shortest stay in Privet Drive. In the party he'll start noticing Ginny. 4. Harry will use the mirrors Sirius gave to him as a communication tool as part of some kind of plan. 5. Petunia will unexpectedly perform magic in HBP or in book 7. It'll be a very fun scene to read! Luna (crossing her finger!) From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 15 17:45:52 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:45:52 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--Replies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130744 > Karen: > just wanted to comment on the above. The fact that Peter > called LV 'The Dark Lord' was what convinced me that he > was the spy. Only DEs call him 'The Dark Lord', every one > else calls him 'You Know Who' or 'He Who Must Not Be > Named' (apart from the very few who actaully call him > Lord Voldemort). > > > > Pippin: > Harry is not an accurate observer. Draco Malfoy refers to > the 'Dark Lord' and so does Trelawney in True Seer mode. > Karen again: Yes and Draco Malfoy's father is a Death Eater. Draco would have grown up hearing him referred to as The Dark Lord at home. As for Trelawney in True Seer Mode - who knows who she's channelling! From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Jun 15 17:48:52 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:48:52 -0000 Subject: My thoughts on the halfblood prince. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > I've been thinking about the identity of the HBP. Everyone seems so > concerned about it because they think he is going to play a role in > the story. I'm not so sure thats true. Most of the other titles in > the HP series are merely things that serve as a catalyst for the > story, but without being overly central to Harry. I think the HBP is > going to serve a similar function. That is a very interesting perspective on things, phoenixgod. I don't know that I would agree, however. The Goblet, for instance, is basically shorthand for the TriWizard Tournament, which is certainly central to Harry in GoF. And the Prisoner of Azkaban is definitely a matter of deep concern to Harry in the book of that title. As for the Stone, I agree the stone itself is not central, but the things inextricably bound to it most certainly are, as is the case with the Chamber of Secrets. I would argue that Rowling just fixes on whatever catchy title suggests itself from the storyline, without their necessarily being a fixed relationship between Harry and the thing named. > > My opinion on the half blood prince is this: I think the HBP is a > story, piece of history, or Allegory that Harry is going to learn > about in the next book. A story of a man who will have been put in a > similar situation to Harry as the victim of a prophecy and beat it. > I think Harry is going to draw upon that story for strength. An > example he can follow and maybe even get some ideas from. How will > he learn the story? Maybe Hermione or Binns will tell him about it, > but I personally think that based on the art of the books that > Dumbledore is going to tell him the tale. I think that DD is going > to be taking Harry under his wing to learn some special skills and I > think the story is going to be part of it. > What a fascinating idea! I don't think I've seen it anywhere before, and it sounds perfectly logical. It would certainly be a kind of plot device we haven't seen before, at least not in such a central position. Of course, it also dovetails with the idea that Dumbledore himself might be the Half Blood Prince. The story might involve his fight against Grindlewald. Or maybe not. I agree that the covers seem to portend the the Harry/Dumbledore relationship is central to HBP. I, personally, find that a good omen. Hopefully this will provide a conduit for many of the "answers" JKR has promised. I would not be adverse to several more answers about the Harry/Dumbledore plot thread itself -- nor do I think you would be, phoenixgod. :-) Whether the two of them will be involved in training, per se, I don't know. I imagine there will be some of that, at least. I still suspect that the HBP is a person. However, I would not be suprised for it to be a story, or an inn (as some have suggested), or a drink or potion (as others have suggested), or a diamond, or whatever. Lupinlore From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 18:27:31 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:27:31 -0000 Subject: Madam Hooch: Yellow Eyes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pot_of_harry" wrote: > pot_of_harry wrote: > > > my question to anyone that is interested is: > > > Why is Madam Hooche's eyes yellow? > > Chys: > > I thought bird eyes right away, like she'd tried to transfigure as > > an animagus and got caught in the morph. > > > > Sorry took so long to reply, been away for a while... > I think yourself and Jazmyn could be right...probably a transformation > that didn't quite end up as it should have, or maybe her eyes are > permenantly transformed to her advantage. I am not sure which book, > (I have been sifting through the pages of the first two books without > any luck), but I remember Harry walking past McGonagall's class and > overheard someone being turned into a badger and having red eyes for a > while afterwards? Describing them as hawk like, might be a clue to > her being animagus, but I am sure Rowling would have shown her as a > hawk in the books if she was (i.e McGonagall and her turning into a > cat). It would be interesting to know the dangers of > transformation....or even the restricitons of it (like you said, maybe > there is a time limit)? > > pot_of_harry I was reminded of the paper revealed at the second opening of the Room of Requirements on JKR's website: "He looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp." Wonder if there is a connection to Madame Hooch? Julie From clio44a at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 18:58:14 2005 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:58:14 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130747 A HBP poll, yay. Time for Clio to post at HP4GU after an extremely long break from anything Potter related. > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Headmaster Dumbledore (of course) > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Severus Snape > 3. What is Lily's big secret? Knowing that Snape is the Half-Blood Prince > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? That MacLaggan character > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? NOT a pensieve. Its a magical gadget we have not heard of yet and it belonged to the four founders of Hogwarts. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7 > Predictions (0-10 points each): > 1. Ron and Hermione will become a couple which leads to the trio's biggest crisis yet. > 2. The clasped hands on the back of the British bookcover belong to Harry and Snape. > 3. We will meet the proverbial 'good Slytherin' and learn about the inner conflict in Slytherin house. > 4. By the end of the book Minerva McGonagall will be Headmistress of Hogwarts. > 5. Petunia Dursley will have her finest hour and in a conflict with Vernon she will take Harry's side. That was fun!! I am counting down the days till the 16th. Clio From dorbandb at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 19:04:32 2005 From: dorbandb at yahoo.com (dorbandb) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:04:32 -0000 Subject: Flamel is Dead (Was: Re: HBP:Cover: Spolier) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dorbandb" > > > > Hi Juli, > > As I'm a big fan of the notion that Flamel is not yet dead and will be > > critical to the outcome of the story, I went to check this out. > > Sorry, I couldn't find the specific faq that states this. I *think* I > > read them all... > > Could you/would you be so kind as to post the specifics? Appreciate > > it. > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/rumours_view.cfm?id=32 > > Nicolas Flamel is going to come to Hogwarts to teach potions > > Flamel has now died; Dumbledore explained in `Philosopher's Stone' that > his old friend was going to choose death rather than allow his stone to > fall into the wrong hands. > > ----------------- > > Hard to reinterpret that one, but I'm sure someone here will take a > stab at it because JKR is sneaky, right? > > -Nora has fun with ritornelli Hi Nora, Thanks for that - I guess. It does shoot my entire theory though...dang! Oh well..... Brian From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 15 19:29:55 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:29:55 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--Replies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130749 > > Pippin: > > Harry is not an accurate observer. Draco Malfoy refers to > > the 'Dark Lord' and so does Trelawney in True Seer mode. > > > > Karen again: > > Yes and Draco Malfoy's father is a Death Eater. Draco would have > grown up hearing him referred to as The Dark Lord at home. As for > Trelawney in True Seer Mode - who knows who she's channelling! Pippin: The prophetic voice is most unlikely to be a Voldemort supporter, or it would have made sure that he got the entire prophecy. Dobby also uses the term (CoS-US ch 2 p15) and though he's certainly a Malfoy associate, he's no Death Eater. Whoever wrote the valentine for Harry "The hero who conquered the Dark Lord" used it too.(CoS-US ch 13 p 238). Its use didn't reap any shocked exclamations, so evidently most people aren't upset when they hear it. Certainly no one present took it as a clue that Ginny had been possessed! And if that's not enough, Harry himself uses it! PoA-US ch16 p 324 "You --you just told me that the -- the Dark Lord's going to rise again...that his servant's going to go back to him..." I'm afraid Harry was just giving Snape a hard time. Pippin From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 15 20:32:12 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:32:12 -0000 Subject: My thoughts on the halfblood prince. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: Lupinlore: > I still suspect that the HBP is a person. However, I would not be > suprised for it to be a story, or an inn (as some have suggested), > or a drink or potion (as others have suggested), or a diamond, or > whatever. Geoff: Picking up on your thoughts that the Half-blood Prince is a person and then also your reminder that it might be the name of a inn has been suggested, many UK pubs with names like that are so named because it was a real person or possibly a character from a story or legend.... So we could /possibly/ score double points for that. PS I have my doubts about a drink. Can you imagine going into the Three Broomsticks and asking "May I have a pint of Half-blood Prince please?" It just doesn't sound right. From jaanise at hello.lv Wed Jun 15 20:36:07 2005 From: jaanise at hello.lv (JanisE) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:36:07 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who taught Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050615203613.18655ABB1E@mail.livas.lv> No: HPFGUIDX 130751 ---------------------------- From: Eggplant Who taught Voldemort? Well there is only one person we know with certainty taught Voldemort, Albus Dumbledore ---------------------------- Jaanis: Yes, this is to be kept in mind. Only the meaning of the question was who taught Voldemort into Dark Arts. And it certainly wasn't Dumbledore. He just taught Transfiguration at Hogwarts. Like to any other student at that time. From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 20:39:23 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:39:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 31 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130752 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Kingsley Shacklebolt > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) A historical figure other than the founders who doesn't really play all that important a role in the plot. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) That she was an outsanding legilimens. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The old lion guy, a new character with little or no connection to anyone. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He'll get closer to one with Ginny > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's Pensieve > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Nine, including potions. Excluding divination and history of magic. > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. > > 1. We will learn that Ron is an excellent swimmer > 2. A new animal will be introduced that will either be a comination of two other animals (like a hippogriff) or very much like a regular muggle animal but different (like a unicorn) > 3. The Half-Blood Prince will be introduced into the story on Halloween > 4. We will not learn who wins the House Cup > 5. Hermione will spend hours examining the wording of the prophecy and find something that Harry didn't -- Gregory Lynn From heidi at heidi8.com Wed Jun 15 21:13:36 2005 From: heidi at heidi8.com (Heidi) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:13:36 -0400 Subject: ADMIN: The TODAY SHOW Interview Message-ID: <5913e6f805061514131730906@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130753 Hi - I'm Heidi, one of the residents of HEXquarters, and also an editor at The Leaky Cauldron. The Mod Squad has asked me to report on the issue of Katie Couric's purported J.K. Rowling interview, which has been an issue of concern to many of you, for understandable reasons. We at TLC recently received word from an NBC rep that the Rowling-Couric interview is tentatively scheduled to air Monday, Tuesday and/or Wednesday in the week starting July 11, though that may easily change. The interview is taking place today in Scotland and seems to be planned to air to go with a whole Harry Potter themed week on the Today show, starting on July 11. However, a different, yet knowledgable, source put the air date at July 18 instead of the week of July 11. So, stay tuned for an exact date; we'll update you if you check in at the-leaky-cauldron.org as we get it. This topic was touched on during today's Today Show, where it was implied that Katie is in Scotland interviewing JKR this week, which would explain the source of the confusion. Hope this clears things up - any additional discussion can go onto our Off Topic Chatter list at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/hpfgu-otchatter - see you there! Best, Heidi http://www.fictionalley.org - Where Creativity is Magic From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 21:14:06 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:14:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130754 On 6/15/05, Claire wrote: > * > S > * > P > * > O > * > I > * > L > * > E > * > R > (sort of) > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "labmystc" > > A binding magical contract between DD and Harry, where DD > through > > his death transfers all of his powers, memories, and thoughts (rep. > > by pensieve)into Harry. Harry then possesses every bit of magic he > > would ever need to defeat LV, and win in the end. > > > > Just my humble thoughts...feel free to laugh, ridicule, and > cruciatus > > me to death :-) > > > > Chris > > Now Claire: > > I just had a "duh!" moment reading your post (which is a good > thing). It explains a couple things for me: (1) the thread > throughout the books that DD is the only one Voldemort ever feared, > and (2) DD allowing Harry to confront Voldemort by giving him enough > information (or, rather, the benefit of his knowledge) to allow Harry > to succeed. It makes sense, then, that DD transfers all he knows to > Harry before he dies such that Harry is now the one to be feared. Holy frogbrains batman! Death and rebirth have been a major theme in the books to the extent that one of them was named after a creature known for dying and being reborn. It seems the only goal of Riddle's existence is to ensure that he doesn't die and She who made this world tells us the question we should be asking is not "Why did Harry live?" but "Why didn't Voldemort die?" I'm going to ramble a bit, but hang in there. The Order of the Phoenix fights Voldemort, but why call it the Order of the Phoenix? Surely they are all willing to die in the fight, and Fawkes at least showed that he was willing to die in the fight at the Ministry. And yet it seems there should be more than that because Phoenixes don't just die--they die and are reborn. Perhaps the Phoenix referred to is not really a phoenix, but a person who has accepted the responsibility of being "the Phoenix." I'm probably not going to say this well but I envision a line of people extending back into the past, perhaps to Godric Gryffindor who each pass their accumulated experiences to a successor. When one phoenix dies, he is "reborn" in his successor in the sense that the successor has inherited all the experiences of all the previous phoenixes. The phoenix is dedicated to fighting those who practice the dark arts. He accepts the pain and loneliness to help others (his tears have healing powers). He accepts the insanely difficult chore of fighting evil (he can bear very heavy burdens). I can see it. -- Gregory Lynn From joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 18:15:51 2005 From: joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com (joyfulstoryteller) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:15:51 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Percy's Prospects (was Re: Ending the series) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130755 "eggplant107" wrote: snip > > I don't think Dumbledore will die until the end of the > book, in the meantime he will teach defense against the dark arts > himself. I also think Percy will be deeply involved in the plot to > kill Dumbledore. In the end I don't think Harry is going to make it > either. > I also feel that Dumbeldore will make it through the majority of HBP. Past that I don't know, but I find the idea of his taking over the DADA teaching position to be a very interesting one. I think that it is probably more likely than the return of Lupin, and certainly more likely than Harry teaching those classes, even though the members of the DA have become much more proficient. I find your proposal that there will be a specific plot to kill Dumbledore (as opposed to him dying some other way, or not dying at all) very intriguing. I'm not entirely certain about the idea of Percy being an active participant. I suppose that if you folow the "Dumbledore and Harry are the reason for Fudge falling out of favor/power, so it's their fault that I've lost my own power base and potential for influence" line of reasoning, then it would make a twisted sort of sense for Percy to want them out of the picture. Sadly, Percy seems to garner most of his self-esteem from his association with authority, and since he backed the wrong authority, his self-esteem is probably pretty low right now. This will make him vulnerable to anyone skilled at manipulation, and Voldemort is a master. What may keep him from turning entirely to "The Dark Side" to borrow from Star Wars, is his genuine caring for Ron and Ginny. He seems to feel some measure of protectiveness and caring for both of these younger siblings, and maybe they will be able to help him change his attitudes and choices. However, I rather suspect that the chances of Percy getting involved with Voldemort's supporters is high. He has already faced one inquiry at the MOM over the disappearance of Mr. Crouch Sr., and I would guess that he may well face another after his sycophantic support not only of Fudge, but of Umbridge and her educational "policies". I'm sure that Amelia Bones will have had plenty to report to her mother about the last school year. I don't think that Percy's career at the Ministry will be able to survive a second inquiry. He could end up sacked, or at least demoted to some closet even more obscure than the one his father's Department is currently lodged in. I think that losing his appearance of being able to influence powerful individuals is going to be a real blow to Percy. Joyfulstoryteller From fozzie60 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 20:33:57 2005 From: fozzie60 at yahoo.com (Sue) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:33:57 -0000 Subject: Contest Predictioins Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130756 Another lurker pulled out of hiding......this has been one of the more interesting threads I've seen here. Thanks!! 1. Who will be the most major character to die? A tough one. But since there are lots of Weasley's, surely we can lose one. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I think it will be a new character. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I think the whole Lily thing is a big red herring and there is no secret about her. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Much as I would like it to be Lupin, I think this will be a new character also. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? After the big reveal with DD at the end of book 5, I don't think Harry is going to want to be involved with ANYbody, romantically or otherwise. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I like Madame Bones, but she is likely to be too obvious. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Something in the locked room at the MOM, maybe a penseve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All but 2 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Felix Felicitious(?) is a spell/charm name, not a person. 2. Petunia will do magic. 3. We will see Gilderoy Lockhart again in this book. 4. Draco's Detour is to the good side. 5. I think the ring on the book cover and the rings that Draco and several other cast members wore in Movie 3 are related somehow. Thanks for having me, now back to my regular scheduled lurking. Sue From lycanthropylupus at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 20:46:47 2005 From: lycanthropylupus at gmail.com (jenny latzhall) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:46:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130757 Delurking for the second time. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? The Old Lion Guy - Goddric Gryffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? She worked in the Department of Mysteries 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one, although he will get closer to Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Harry learns that he is a metamorphmagus and begins to develop this skill. 2. Harry will put back together the mirror he destroyed at the end of book 5 and it will be used for communication purposes. 3. The DA will continue, but do so openly now. Theodore Nott will end up joining the DA, either officially or more secretly, and will be the 'good Slytherin.' 4. We find out that Harry spent at least some of the missing 24 hours at the Longbottoms house. 5. We find out why James and Sirius suspected Lupin as the spy. Cheers! Gwen From labmystc at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 20:50:22 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (labmystc) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:50:22 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the Strategist / Dumbledore Knows... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130758 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > We *know* that Dumbledore is quick on his feet. We saw that in > chpt. 27 in OotP when we knew that Dumbledore had been caught by > surprise with evidence that Harry had been running an illegal school > club...it takes away the entire tension of > that scene. Chris: Do we really know he was caught by surprise? DD seems in full control from the moment Umbridge escorts Harry into his office. Remember, when Fudge asks Harry if he knew why he was there, Harry is about to defiantly scream "Yes!" but one look at DD convinces him not to. It's almost as if DD knows what is coming and is steering Harry through his answers. Look at the situation with Marietta Edgecombe. Umbridge had notified Fudge after Edgecombe came to her after dinner that evening. However, Fudge had no idea who the witness was before she was introduced. But DD is reserved as hell when she is introduced, almost as if he knew this was coming. He even gives Shacklebolt signals that cause Shacklebolt to modify Edgecombe's memory, already knowing that Marietta was about to spill the beans. Was there ever really any tension present here? DD steers the entire conversation away from Harry, puts it on himself, and then stuns everybody in the room with no more trouble than popping a lemon drop into his mouth. I understand that people like DD, and I am one of those people. BUt there are just too many circumstances where DD knows what is going on before everyone else does. There is something special about DD that we don't know as of yet. LV boasts accurately (and DD confirms) that he knows more dark magic than anyone else alive. LV knows all about the prophecy, which states that Harry is the only one that can kill him. Why then is DD the only one that LV fears? Because there's more to DD than meets the eye. Chris From Cyrna at europe.de Wed Jun 15 21:31:21 2005 From: Cyrna at europe.de (Danny) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:31:21 +0200 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c571f1$948f1830$0b01a8c0@dannypc> No: HPFGUIDX 130759 I'll try my luck: >Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > >1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy (or one of the twins) >2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," >describe more.) Someone we have not seen before, probably someone long dead >3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated >and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She has seen Petunia perform accidental magic. (e.g. Petunia oppressed her magic as it being not normal and then seeing her younger sister getting more attention from their parents because of her not being normal - this is more humiliating for her than anything the twins could think of.) >4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Tonks (I'd love to see her in that role *g*) >5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I think Ginny will finally try her luck, but it will be short lived (in this book) as LV stages his next surprise and everyone will be busy with other things again. >6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones if they're intelligent. If they're all dimwits it will be Percy before he dies. >7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve or something working similar. (a long lost wizarding device for 3D Adventures without a PC *g*) >8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes >9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? I'd like to see him try but I think not. He will excel at Herbology though. >10. How many OWLs did Harry get? One more than he needs to pass >Predictions (0-10 points each): >Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question 1. Sirius is not dead and Harry will find this out through the mirror. (Which does not mean he can come back easily) 2. We will find out what Trelawny's first (or second? The one we don't know yet) real prediction is. 3. Charlie will join the war against LV with the dragons. 4. Draco will realise that serving LV is more suicidal than rewarding and joins the 'other side'. (Still hates Harry and vice versa) 5. Harry will still have his Occlumency lessons with Snape ... under harder circumstances. Danny (who tomorrow will kick herself for not writing in the cool predictions she will probably have tonight) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 21:37:25 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:37:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130760 >>Alla: >The house is a living reminder of very unhappy times in Sirius' life, IMO.< >Sirius was not always at his best with Harry in OOP, but frankly under circumstances I am surprised he managed to do as well as he did.< Betsy Hp: I just don't think Sirius was all that helpful to Harry. Not after Harry returned to Hogwarts anyway. I was cheering loudly for Sirius when he stood up to Molly and told Harry as much about the Order as he could. But then suddenly, Sirius takes a deep dive into toxic- adult land, that to my mind is just not explainable by, "I've been in this house for a WEEK, a WEEK I tell you! I've gone MAAAAD!!" Because that's the huge reason I think Depressed!Sirius doesn't work. In the course of one week he slides from Grumpy!Sirius to the reckless and hateful Depressed!Sirius of the fire call? I just don't buy it. It's too schizophrenic. It's not like Sirius has been in solitary or anything. Within the first week of Harry going away he gets a letter from his godson asking for his help. And how does Sirius handle the conversation that follows? With a vicious attack on Harry that would give even Snape pause. Odd behavior to my mind. >>Alla: >And NO, depressed person's behaviour is not always logical,as far as I know.< Betsy Hp: Sirius isn't just acting illogically. He's being incredibly cruel. To Harry. His attack is very specifically aimed at Harry. (I'm not an expert, but do depressed people generally lash out at loved ones like that?) But what is most illogical to me is the 180 degree spin from helpful and supportive Godfather, to petulant and hurtful Godfather. Within a time frame of less than two weeks. >>Gerry: >I also think that Sirius never really got how truly dangerous and evil Umbridge is.< Betsy Hp: They'd moved on from Umbridge. Harry was worried about Death Eaters spotting Sirius in his dog form. Apparently Sirius doesn't get how dangerous and evil Death Eaters can be. (Or, IMO, he's under some sort of influence.) >>Alla: >Should we really start talking about Snape here? :-) Snape taunted Sirius just as much as Sirius did , IMO. They were not on their most mature behaviour, IMO, but were you expecting Sirius NOT to answer Snape's taunts?< Betsy Hp: No, especially if he's drunk. ;) Though if you read that scene you'll note that Sirius *starts* the argument. Sirius then ups the ante by trying to physically intimidate Snape. Sirius is the first to pull his wand, and he's the first to raise his wand. It's in direct response to *Sirius'* actions that Harry (once again, playing the adult to Sirius' child) tries to stop the argument from becoming physical. Was Snape mature in rising to the bait of an obviously not all there man? Of course not. But Snape didn't start anything, he responded to Sirius' cues. >>Alla: >And as Gerry said, I consider Depressed!Sirius who struggled to be helpful to the Order and to be helpful to his Godson by telling him what he needed to hear, but could not because Dumbledore forbade him, to be tragic enough without adding alcoholism or drugging to the mix.< Betsy Hp: I guess I didn't really see Sirius struggling to be helpful to Harry. Not after Harry leaves for Hogwarts anyway. Instead I see a man so self-involved he completely lets down the boy he's supposed to be helping and forces Harry to step into the parent role. Fortunately, as Magda has pointed out, Harry has a strong enough sense of self-preservation that he, for the most part, avoids Sirius when he can, and dreams of a nebulous future when Sirius is all better and they can live a happy life together. (Sounds a bit like an afterschool special, huh?) >>Alla: >Please allow me to quote Phoenixgod, whose posts I always adore and whose opinion of Sirius in OOP sums up mine perfectly.< Betsy Hp: I agree with most of Phoenixgod's post, though I think it's a little too shiny. A little too Sirius and not enough Black, IMO. Because Sirius *is* a Black, much as he tries to fight it. It's his Black- ness that gives his story in OotP such a wonderful gothic flavor. And it's part of the reason I like the alcoholic theory. If it's a flaw Sirius has inherited from his mother, a trait he learned at her knee (as RedHen puts it) it gives a nice symmetry to the tale that a behind the scenes poisoning lacks, IMO. (Though I will say JKR did a pretty heavy job of hinting towards the latter.) Betsy Hp, who cut and snipped a lot for this post and so warns that things may well be out of order. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 21:49:31 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050615214931.23133.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130761 hettiebe wrote: To expand on that argument, who was looking after baby Ron at the time? Perhaps they had a baby sitting ring or maybe Aberforth lulled them to all to sleep with the faint smell of goat. Hettiebe well, for Ron.... Remember the statement from Lupin to Molly during the dead weasley/boggart scene? She was not in the order the first time around. I believe that most of the money came from the Potter family and that we will find out more in the next book. I still stand by James and Sirius inventing things to sell to Zonko's. Just look at how well they did with the Maurauder's Map. Who is to say they did not have a little coming in from that as well? They have been compared to the twins often enough. moonmyyst --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 21:48:21 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Speculation on Percy's Prospects (was Re: Ending the series) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050615214821.8479.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130762 > JoyfulStoryTeller wrote: > Sadly, Percy seems to garner most of his self-esteem > from his > association with authority, and since he backed the > wrong authority, > his self-esteem is probably pretty low right now. > This will make him > vulnerable to anyone skilled at manipulation, and > Voldemort is a > master. > I can see as well Percy being vulnerable to Voldermorts underlings at this point as well. I am sure he is probably wondering what to do after being told he bought the whole 'you know who' aint back is REALLY back and that what his family was saying was correct. If it were me writing the last two books I'd have him return to the family fold severly humbled by what has happened to him. as for his job, I'd like to see him canned just to make sure his humbling is complete laurie __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jun 15 22:06:32 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:06:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's gold Message-ID: <6d.4760e784.2fe20068@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130763 In a message dated 6/15/2005 8:49:45 AM Central Standard Time, carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk writes: To expand on that argument, who was looking after baby Ron at the time? Perhaps they had a baby sitting ring or maybe Aberforth lulled them to all to sleep with the faint smell of goat. Hettiebe According to Lupin, Molly at least wasn't a member if The Order in the prior war. Chapter 9 The Woes of Mrs Weasley 'Molly that's enough; said Lupin firmly. 'This isn't like last time. The Order are better prepared, we've got a head start, we know what Voldemorts up to -' Mrs Weasley gave a little squeak of fright at the sound of the name. 'Oh, Molly, come on, it's about time you got used to hearing his name - look, I can't promise no one's going to get hurt, nobody can promise that, but we're much better off than we were last time. You weren't in the Order then, you don't understand. Last time we were outnumbered twenty to one by the Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one ... Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 23:23:41 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:23:41 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore vs Fudge Chp 27 in OotP (long) (was:Re: Dumbledore the Strategist...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130764 >>Betsy Hp: >We *know* that Dumbledore is quick on his feet. We saw that in chpt. 27 in OotP...< >>Chris: >Do we really know he was caught by surprise? DD seems in full control from the moment Umbridge escorts Harry into his office.< Betsy Hp: Right. Let's dissect that scene. *rubs hands together gleefully, because totally lives for this stuff* [All references from OotP scholastic hardback] First thing we see is a crowded office with Dumbledore (looking serene), McGonagall, Fudge (looking especially pleased with himself), Percy, Kingsley, and Dawlish (redshirt Auror). [610] So at first glance, yes I'll agree, Dumbledore seems in complete control. The important word though is "seems". It would never do for him to look worried or confused. This is a poker game between Dumbledore and Fudge and appearances are *everything*. In fact, by looking so smug and gloating with Umbridge over having caught Harry, Fudge has already given Dumbledore ground. Fudge is letting the entire room know how important this find is, while Dumbledore has yet to give away anything. [610] Moving along, Fudge and Umbridge do their little gloating and then Fudge asks Harry if he knows why he's there: classic interrogation technique. Harry who's been all about the "never mind the maneuvers, just go straight at them" school of thought this year is about to blurt out everything. Dumbledore, knowing what a huge mistake this would be (talk about showing your hand), prompts Harry to say no. [611] >>Chris: >Remember, when Fudge asks Harry if he knew why he was there, Harry is about to defiantly scream "Yes!" but one look at DD convinces him not to. It's almost as if DD knows what is coming and is steering Harry through his answers.< Betsy Hp: Dumbledore steers Harry through *this* answer. And it's a no- brainer really. Don't give your interrogator *anything*. Make them work for every crumb. The cleverness of this particular tactic is shown when Harry's answer of no completely throws Fudge off-stride. Fudge quickly moves from pleased to incredulous to sarcastic to anger. And Umbridge is forced to reveal their informant. [611] If Harry had answered the question truthfully, he'd have informed on himself. Dumbledore didn't need to know anything about what Fudge and Umbridge had on Harry to decide to take this route. It's the obvious route to take. There's no evidence Dumbledore knows exactly *what* Fudge and Umbridge have on Harry, but by keeping his cards close, Dumbledore forces Fudge and Umbridge to reveal theirs. Enter Marietta Edgecombe. At this point it's Hermione who comes to Harry's rescue. By the content of her testimony to Umbridge it seems pretty clear that Marietta wasn't wanting to be too involved. She dropped a few hints and hoped that Umbridge would figure out the rest. So I think the Sneak jinx hits her pretty hard. She's totally involved now, and she's terrified and paralyzed by that involvement. Dumbledore, at this point, has nothing to do with Marietta's reluctance to speak. That's all on Hermione. [612-613] >>Chris: >Look at the situation with Marietta Edgecombe. Umbridge had notified Fudge after Edgecombe came to her after dinner that evening. However, Fudge had no idea who the witness was before she was introduced. But DD is reserved as hell when she is introduced, almost as if he knew this was coming.< Betsy Hp: The last thing Dumbledore should do at this point is panic or even react. Any reaction on Dumbledore's part would give Fudge something to work with. And frankly, the very fact that Fudge hasn't met with his informant prior to the meeting (which, as you point out Chris, is made obvious to everyone in the room) shows that Fudge really hasn't got a clue on how to run an interrogation. Heck, *I* can tell he's messing up, and everything I know I learned from TV. (And, you know, family life .) Since Marietta refuses to talk Umbridge takes over and she brings up the Hogs Head meeting, a meeting that Dumbledore is already aware of thanks to Mundungnus [370]. I'm sure Dumbledore was expecting Fudge to bring that meeting up, and Dumbledore uses the law against him [614]. (Actually, I imagine that Dumbledore had been prepared for the Hogs Head meeting to come up for a while now. He had to have realized that the Ministry had its own informants, so I think he was fully alert to the fact that the meeting was not illegal.) Now things are back on the reluctant informant. Can Marietta testify to six months worth of meetings? Thanks to Kingsley, Marietta is made to lie [615]. >>Chris: >He even gives Shacklebolt signals that cause Shacklebolt to modify Edgecombe's memory, already knowing that Marietta was about to spill the beans.< Betsy Hp: I'm not seeing any clear-cut signal from Dumbledore to Kingsley. Kingsley is a top-level Auror well used, I imagine, to thinking on his feet. Dumbledore *does* make clear that evidence of continuing meetings would be a bad thing [615]. And he later praises Kingsley for thinking quickly. "He was remarkably quick on the uptake, modifying Miss Edgecombe's memory like that while everyone was looking the other way -- thank him for me, won't you Minerva?" [621] It seems to me that Kingsley acted on his own. Just as I'm sure he maneuvered to be one of the Aurors accompanying Fudge to Hogwarts. It's no secret to the Order that part of their battle, at this point, is with the Ministry. And then, in spite of all of Dumbledore's maneuverings, everything seems lost. Pansy was quick enough to grap the list of DA member names that proves there was at least one illegal meeting taking place [617]. And one meeting is all they need to expel Harry Potter. Something Dumbledore cannot allow to happen. But then Fudge points out that the group have named themselves Dumbledore's Army. "Dumbledore reached out and took the piece of parchment from Fudge. He gazed at the heading scribbled by Hermione months before and for a moment seemed unable to speak. Then he looked up smiling." [618] We see Dumbledore thinking here. The DA used his name. Fudge is desperate to get him. Dumbledore can give Fudge a bigger fish and save Harry. And that's exactly what he does. He even goes so far as to say there was never a meeting that night so that no other student on the list can be expelled. And Fudge, fool that he is, falls completely into Dumbledore's trap. Because Fudge sees this all as a political game, and Dumbledore realizes that it's a war. So Dumbledore is willing to use force to keep himself out of Ministry hands. "I have absolutely no intention of being sent to Azkaban. I could break out, of course -- but what a waste of time, and frankly I can think of a whole host of things I would rather be doing." [620] Hee! Of course Dumbledore has to be rather forceful with McGonagall to make sure she didn't sacrifice herself as well [620]. But in the end, he gets away. Is it a perfect ending? Of course not. It is much more convenient for Dumbledore to be at Hogwarts. But it's better than Harry getting expelled and forced to go home to the Dursleys (if they'd even take him). >>Chris: >Was there ever really any tension present here?< Betsy Hp: Of course there was. Dumbledore started out in the weak position of being the accused. (Or having Harry as the accused, which was even worse.) Through clever use of interrogation tactics Dumbledore managed to put the pressure over on Fudge (helped, of course, by Fudge's general incompetence) only to have a Slytherin student make all of his maneuverings for naught. At that point Dumbledore seized on the one way he had to turn the attention from Harry to himself and sacrificed himself so that Harry remained safe. >>Chris: >DD steers the entire conversation away from Harry, puts it on himself, and then stuns everybody in the room with no more trouble than popping a lemon drop into his mouth.< Betsy Hp: True, we never see him sweat. But that's because Dumbledore is a bad-ass and Fudge is an incompetent. No need for special powers for Dumbledore to prevail. A cool head and some quick thinking was more than enough to rule the day. (Though I would argue that things became a bit more complicated than eating candy in there. Dumbledore just knew enough to not allow his anxieties to show.) >>Chris: >I understand that people like DD, and I am one of those people. BUt there are just too many circumstances where DD knows what is going on before everyone else does.< Betsy Hp: This was not one of those times. Can you point out any others? Times when not even a keen sense of observation or a little skill with Legilimency would make a difference? >>Chris: >LV knows all about the prophecy, which states that Harry is the only one that can kill him. Why then is DD the only one that LV fears? Because there's more to DD than meets the eye.< Betsy Hp: First, Voldemort doesn't know all about the prophecy. He's only heard part of it and doesn't realize that *only* Harry can kill him. So he fears Dumbledore because Dumbledore *is* a highly powerful wizard with a keen sense of observation and a fine strategic mind. Dumbledore is who he's always been, IMO. I will be surprised if there's any super huge power left to be revealed. Especially after JKR went through all this trouble to show Dumbledore as merely human. Betsy Hp From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 23:39:14 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:39:14 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--Replies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130765 > Neri: > I have always took the "Voldemort's second-in-command" to > be a complete fabrication, a typical Daily Prophet catch > phrase. > > Pippin: > Then what do you make of JKR's statement that the > Lestranges were "sent" after the Longbottoms? Neri again: This single word "sent" should be considered in the context in which it appeared, that is, in the rumors section of JKR's site: ******************************************** http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/rumours.cfm Rumor: The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him. JKR's answer: No, they weren't, they were very definitely sent after Neville's parents. I can't say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret. ******************************************** The word "sent" seems to appear in JKR's answer only because it appeared in the original rumor (which was probably sent by a fan or encountered by JKR in some website), while JKR's answer itself is obviously concerned with other issues she wanted to clarify: that the Lestranges weren't after Neville and that they didn't know about the prophecy. In this context, I'd say it's a rather long shot to conclude that the Lestranges were "sent" by some "second-in-command" who's very existence is highly doubtful. They could have been sent by somebody lower in the hierarchy, but who had some key information about the Longbottoms that the Lestranges didn't have, or by someone higher in the hierarchy but still not a mysterious "second-in-command" (Lucius Malfoy, for example). Having a "second-in-command" strikes me as extremely out-of-character for Voldy. Such a title implies that if something happens to the first-in-command, the second-in-command takes his place, an unthinkable idea for Voldy. The whole organization exists for him alone. In the graveyard scene he stood in the center, all the DEs stood around him in a circle, and there wasn't any special room reserved for a "second-in-command". The most Voldy would allow is someone like Malfoy being the commander of specific operations, but Malfoy too stands in the circle with all the other DEs. > Pippin: > Why "just one year"? Sirius was twenty-two when he was > sent to Azkaban, so Lupin had been out of school four > or five years already. Neri: I wrote one year because according to Sirius in the Shack Wormtail was spying for one year before GH. And while Sirius doesn't say how he came up with this time period, it seems likely that he had heard it too from the DEs in Azkaban, or he would have been less specific. Voldy's words to Wormtail in the graveyard also imply that Wormtail is a returning member. "You returned to me, not out of loyalty, but out of fear of your old friends (GoF, Ch. 33, p. 649 US)". Why would Voldy expect any loyalty from an enemy who was caught and bullied to give information only a week before GH? A page later Voldy adds, after issuing Wormtail his new silver hand: "may your loyalty never waver again". Then Wormtail "takes his place in the circle", a place apparently reserved for him by the other DEs. This suggests he was already a DE before GH, a rather fast promotion if he did it in a single week. > Pippin: > A very neat solution is to suppose that Voldemort used > the codename "Wormtail" for his spy all along, so that > the DE's never knew that Peter and Lupin were two > different people. Neri: This neat solution doesn't fit very well with the sequence of events. You suggest Voldemort gave ESE!Lupin the codename "Wormtail" long before GH. This was in order to confuse the Order, I assume? Then why did Sirius suspect Lupin but *not* Wormtail? Then a year or so after that the Potters decided to protect themselves with a Fidelius, and whom did they choose, very unexpectedly, to be their Secret Keeper? Wormtail. Was this an amazing coincidence, or is Voldy a seer? Neri From labmystc at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 19:05:16 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (labmystc) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:05:16 -0000 Subject: SPOILERS - (Was Re: Was: Bloomsbury Screen Saver!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130766 S P O I L E R S P A C E **************************************************************** labmystc wrote: > > The only thing we > > have associated with green light so far is the Avada Kedavra curse, > > and imminent death. **snip** JLV wrote: >This led me to several immediate conclusions before I realised I >was guilty of fannacy somewhere along the line. It isn't that I >don't think that there is anything in it - there very well could be - >it is just that in our desperation to find significance we may leap >to conclusions citing falsehoods as evidence. I love the >speculations, but find it difficult when contingent things are >treated as proven. Especially as I know I do it > all the time! > > And if you are still not convinced of the terrible power of fannacy, > chant the mantra 'Remember Mark Evans'. After I wasted an entire afternoon looking at screensavers and posting this message, I started to think along the same lines as you are. Jo and her publishers know about the kind of furor we have in poring through everything she's done, from the books to the interviews. Perhaps she works with the artists to produce these kinds of things, knowing full well we are going to throughly examine them and pick them apart. Several people have posted that they think the crack on the ring is just that, a crack. But perhaps it was drawn in such a way to provoke the discussion that it is in fact Harry's scar. Who knows? I know one thing, I do like the discussions here, and the predictions and suppositions that are made. IT is fun, isn't it? Chris P.S. not one of the fans to fall for Mark Evans. :-) From bunniqula at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 19:53:28 2005 From: bunniqula at gmail.com (Dina Lerret) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:53:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Madam Hooch: Yellow Eyes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a27384005061512537ba114f3@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130767 On 6/15/05, fanofminerva wrote: > his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish > eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, > Wonder if there is a connection to Madame Hooch? Possibly related to Remus Lupin? {g} I could've sworn Lupin's eye colour was referenced as being in the yellow/gold spectrum. Dina From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 23:50:23 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's social skills (was: poor Grangers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050615235023.46986.qmail@web54704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130768 wrote: > Hermione is an excellent example of the only child. > Book smart but lacking in any social skills what so ever, > understandable, who would she ever practice on? My reply: I question how book smart Hermione is. Why? She works an awful lot for those grades. She is always studying, she is one of the hardest workers I know. And really lack of social skills? I would say the gold in that department goes to Percy and he's definitely not an only child. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From julierice8 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 23:21:20 2005 From: julierice8 at yahoo.com (Julie Rice) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry had to fail Message-ID: <20050615232120.21068.qmail@web50504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130769 There's been a lot of talk about how people didn't like Harry in OOTP. I won't snip because there are too many of you. I'm included in that. There's also a lot of talk about Dumbledore's motivation and Sirius' depression and actions. I'd like to make the hypothesis that all these things had to happen so that Harry could fail. JKR had to have Harry fail in Book 5 so that the series was more realistic. (Yeah, I just used Harry Potter and realistic in the same sentence.) Think about it. Harry is 15 and already, with some help, he has defeated a troll, quirrelmort, 16 year old Tom Riddle, a basilisk, dementors, a dragon, newly born Voldemort. I'm sure there's others I'm missing. Yes, he had some luck and some help, but he's been successful in everything he's tried. He had to fail in book 5 so that we as readers would actually wonder if he will make it at the end of book 7. If he did just fine in book 5 and book 6, there's no way he could fail in book 7. I guess he could, but we would all hate the series because "it's all about the ending" (a quote from a recent Johnny depp movie). Harry needed to fail so that he can grow in book 6. I like this from Ellydan: Enter Harry having a book to find inner strength and true heroism within himself and not from one of his greatest outside sources --Dumbledore, his great father-figure/mentor. And then he can be humble and teachable enough to triumph in book 7. I personally didn't like the angst!Harry in book 5, but figure that after he is able to come to terms with Sirius' death, he will be able to mature and focus on the task at hand. I could understand where Sirius and Dumbledore were coming from although I may not have agreed with their actions. And all of that put together led to the MOM show down. Where as I said before, Harry had to fail. I hope I was able to convey my thoughts on the matter. Julie Ohio __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 23:28:57 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:28:57 -0000 Subject: Who taught Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <20050615203613.18655ABB1E@mail.livas.lv> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130770 Eggplant wrote: > >>Who taught Voldemort? Well there is only one person we know with certainty taught Voldemort, Albus Dumbledore Juli replies: Sure DD was a teacher at Hogwarts, but he taught Transfiguration, besides, LV could have easily learned the dark arts from books, HRH studied all by themselves before the TWT, later Harry taught the DA stuff he'd learned from books. So I guess it wouldn't have been very difficult to purchase some dark arts book (maybe at Knockturn Alley), or even at Hogwarts (at the library). He performed an AK before he was out of school (I think), because he was about 17 when he killed his father and his grandparents, so this doesn't leave much time to learn the unforgivable curses in his travels considering he spent all the school year at Hogwarts and summers at the orphanage. So for me the only option is Hogwarts, then after he left school he could have learned a lot more. Juli From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Wed Jun 15 19:54:24 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:54:24 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Emotional Intelligence (was: poor Grangers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130771 Hettiebe wrote: > > I agree but would go further. I think Hermione exhibits a high > degree > > of emotional intelligence Julie wrote: > Daniel Goleman literally wrote the book on "Emotional > Intelligence." I will name the characteristics of EQ and follow > them with my opinion of Hermione. I am curious of what others think. > [snip analysis] > > So, in summary, I see Hermione as being high both in generalized > intelligence, academic abilities, and emotional intelligence. She > is still an adolescent with all the developmental tasks adolescents > face. Like Hettibe said, others tend to expect Hermione to act like > a young adult and when she doesn't, it is very noticeable. Rachael: I'd just like to add that the idea that a gifted/exceptional child (or adult) lacks emotional or social skills is generally not true. According to all the psychology, development, and teaching courses I have taken, gifted children are generally just as adept socially and emotionally (if not more) than "normal" children. They tend to have a large amount of friends, make lasting relationships, and grow to be successful, well-adjusted adults who have loving relationships. So the fact that Hermione is emotionally and socially competent should not be a surprise (except for the fact that she started off seeming like she was in the first book). Rachael From vivienne_davalon at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 21:32:30 2005 From: vivienne_davalon at yahoo.com (vivienne_davalon) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:32:30 -0000 Subject: I'm presenting "Snape's Appeal in Canon: Severus, Meet Sherlock" at this fall's Harry Potter Symposium in Salem!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130772 Well, it's official. At the Harry Potter Symposium in Salem this October, The Witching Hour (http://www.witchinghour.org/) I will be: 1) presenting one paper; 2) co-leading a round table discussion; and 3) assisting with an event. 1) The paper I am presenting is called "Snape's Appeal in Canon: Severus, Meet Sherlock" and the summary follows: At our previous Harry Potter Symposium, Nimbus 2003, I attended a panel discussing Snape's appeal in Canon and Fanon. The conclusion drawn by the head of the panel was that Snape really had no appeal in Canon, only in Fanon. I would dispute this conclusion by pointing out the similarities between Snape and another famous and exceedingly popular literary misanthrope, Sherlock Holmes, using extensive examples from both Canons as well as literary critiques of the Holmes stories. One famous quote refers to Holmes as a totally unlikable drug addict, "without a single redeeming quality." And yet Holmes is one of the most beloved characters of all time. In this paper I will point out numerous similarities between Snape and Holmes in appearance, attitude and manner, professional pursuits and morality. I will close by discussing some theories about why Holmes is so popular and suggest that for those same reasons, Snape will also go down in history as one of the best loved misanthropes of literature. By way of example: they both have a "hawklike nose," "piercing eyes," and "sallow skin"; they both love chemistry (particularly poisons); they are both "shrewd," "calculating," love logic, and seem to read minds ("My dear Holmes," says Watson in "A Scandal in Bohemia," "You would certainly have been burned, had you lived a few centuries ago"). They desire recognition and take great pride in their abilities, despite the need for secrecy in their spying activities -- both men infiltrate underground networks run by master criminals. They also share numerous negative qualities, including racism and distrust of foreigners. They both sulk, are cold and antisocial, and snarl and sneer with sarcasm. Holmes' anger sends criminals running in fear for their lives, similar to Harry's reaction when Snape looks "murderous." They are both bitter, cruel, and notoriously amoral. (In one story Holmes tests a pill for poison by giving it to his landlady's dog, who expires forthwith ? shades of Snape's test of Neville's potion on Trevor.) Yet despite this, Holmes is one of the most wildly popular literary characters of all time. According to Ellery Queen "more ha[s] been written about [him] than any other character in fiction." Who knows but that writings about Snape will one day match or surpass him. Holmes' very eccentricity and amorality are what gives us such pleasure as readers, though "the traits that are now familiar, even endearing, were to his first readers alternately intriguing and appalling ? and eminently mysterious." (1) Could Holmes, in another Universe, have become a Potions Master at Hogwarts? In his own words, "there, but for the grace of God, goes Sherlock Holmes." (1) Atkinson, Michael. "Psychologizing the Text of a Study in Scarlet: Repression in the Textual Unconscious." The Secret Marriage of Sherlock Holmes and Other Eccentric Readings. Ann Arbor, the University of Michigan Press, ? 1996 2) The round table I will be co-leading is on the topic of Harry Potter and Wicca (in lieu of my presenting my paper on that topic) 3) The event I am assisting with is Tea With Trelawney (I am also a tarot reader). If anybody here is planning to attend The Witching Hour, please drop me a line at Vivienne_davalon at yahoo.com. I would love to hear from you so I can keep an eye out, and I look forward to meeting you! BB, Vivienne D'Avalon From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 01:23:02 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:23:02 -0000 Subject: DD's Failure to Inform Harry He Would Be a Witness -- OOP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130773 Does anybody have any theories as to why DD failed to inform Harry that he would be at Harry's hearing before the Wizengamot? Even if DD he didn't want to talk to Harry in person, he had to know Harry would be sweating it. I can appreciate that DD wouldn't want to give Harry a sense of false hope or coach him regarding how to testify, but it almost seems cruel to me not to tell him that DD and Arabella Figg were going to testify on his behalf. Surely, DD didn't do it deliberately as a "character building" lesson. Maybe DD was busy with business for the Order and didn't know if he would be able to appear? But wouldn't DD have have made time for something so important? If Harry got expelled and had to surrender his wand, how could he ever hope to defeat Voldemort? Maybe the larger question is why did JKR have DD not inform Harry? Any ideas? Angie From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 01:31:37 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:31:37 -0000 Subject: Fudge, Harry's Expulsion, and the Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130774 I've questioned in another post who knows about the Prophecy. I'm now re-reading OOP and it occured to me to ask: If Fudge is not in cahoots with Voldemort, but knows about the Prophecy and believes Harry is the one with the power to defeat Voldemort, then why on earth would he be so keen to expel Harry from Howgarts and take away his wand? How could Harry defeat Voldemort if he has no wand and doesn't continue to learn magic? Fudge can't be that incompetent, can he? Even if Fudge sincerely believes Harry is a deluded, attention-seeking prat, there is still the Prophecy to contend with. Thoughts, anyone? Angie From chspnll at aanet.com.au Thu Jun 16 01:32:59 2005 From: chspnll at aanet.com.au (saieditor) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:32:59 -0000 Subject: SPOILER - (Images in Bloomsbury Screen Saver!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "labmystc" wrote: S P O I L E R S P A C E **************************************************************** labmystc wrote: > > The only thing we > > have associated with green light so far is the Avada Kedavra curse, and imminent death. **snip** JLV wrote: After I wasted an entire afternoon looking at screensavers and posting this message, I started to think along the same lines as you are. Jo and her publishers know about the kind of furor we have in poring through everything she's done, from the books to the interviews. Perhaps she works with the artists to produce these kinds of things, knowing full well we are going to throughly examine them and pick them apart. Chris P.S. not one of the fans to fall for Mark Evans. :-) ******************************************************** Thanks Labmystic, you gave me an idea. I took screenshots of both the screensavers. With the Clasped Hands and Ring, I took a screenshot - pasted to Adobe Photoshop - fiddled around with the levels and saturation until the ring turned amythest in colour - enlarged the ring - assumed that the ring is cracked - copied each side of the ring - pasted into one image (see the Files Section, HBP Ring, "joined.jpg") presto, the Ring appears, (I say appears after some speculation), to be a cracked S in a badge, somewhat like the S on the front of the Superman outfit. Hmm, I did some cloning to make the join look a bit more like a proper join without a crack, and you can see the results in the Files Section, HBP-Ring, joined-cloned.jpg That image is just some quick work to make things clearer. The other thing that interests me is the "wall" behind the boat on the lake. There appears to be letters in the gyrations of the tree limbs. I cannot work it out. Chris (in Australia) From nantray at hotmail.com Thu Jun 16 01:29:32 2005 From: nantray at hotmail.com (remarkably_raven) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:29:32 -0000 Subject: This is my portkey (HBP Predictions) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130776 Out of lurkdom !! ( I sure hope!) 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Part of me hopes that the most major charactor to die, already has.. Sirius.. however, being that JKR is so amazing with her twists and turns, I suspect it may be another beloved major player that dies before the series is through. I am guessing Dumbledore, and I am thinking it will be in some form of protecting Harry. However, there is good argument to suspect it may be Snape that dies. He is playing double agent and could be discovered by LV and the DE that he is actually spying for the Order. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I personally think it will be a new charactor.. and I believe the 'Old Lion Guy' to be Dumbledore. We may just find our beloved headmaster is an animagus.. recall when he "paces alot in his study" according to the maurders map... well, pacing is one of the traits of a lion ;) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Gosh, this I have given so much thought too and I am wondering if maybe the secret is something to do with Snape. He is very fond of Lily and hates James with a passion. There has to be a connection there somehow. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? I would love to see Lupin return to the post. However, perhaps is Good ol Felix, see below ! 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Romance will be in the air and I might be off my rocker, but I think that we might just see Harry and Hermione come together. I know I know, the odds are on her and Ron... but that just seems to obvious. Harry and Hermoine are always a team and she is always so worried for him, and is drawn to him. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I think it might be someone dark... Someone who buys there way to the top... any guesses ? 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? I totally think its a pensieve. Maybe Harry's ? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? I believe, yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? After how Neville kicked butt in the end of the last book !! YES !! 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? hmmm. Good question. I think he got all, but barely ! Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Felix Felicitious(?) Felix means happy and Felicitious is close in spelling to felicitous which means 1.very well suited or expressed 2. PLEASANT, DELIGHTFUL... so... Happy well suited.. could it be a person well suited for a position. Perhaps the DADA ? OH crap, my own prediction.. ok.. 2. We will find out the truth about what Petunia is so darn afraid of all the time. 3. Sirius is not dead. Well, maybe dead in body but he will be back in s ome form. 4. Lucious gets knocked down a peg or two. 5. Snape and Sirius are half brothers. 6. Neville becomes less of a bumblehead and more confident in the HBP. I hope I just did this right ! Ok. back to reading in ernest ! Raven From shalimar07 at aol.com Thu Jun 16 01:08:12 2005 From: shalimar07 at aol.com (mumweasley7) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:08:12 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130777 * S * P * O * I * L * E * R > > (sort of) > Gregory Lynn wrote: > Perhaps the Phoenix referred to is not really a phoenix, > but a person who has accepted the responsibility of being "the > Phoenix." I'm probably not going to say this well but I > envision a line of people extending back into the past, perhaps > to Godric Gryffindor who each pass their accumulated experiences > to a successor. When one phoenix dies, he is "reborn" in his > successor in the sense that the successor has inherited all the > experiences of all the previous phoenixes. Ohhhhh Gregory...I think you may be on to something. I've always felt that Dumbledore would die before the end of the series but it hadn't occured to me that he would be able to transfer his powers/knowledge to Harry. If it's true that Harry may have Riddle's soul/essence (who really knows except JKR) then he would have his, Riddle's and Dumbledore's powers...."But he will have power the Dark Lord knows not". Shalimar From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Thu Jun 16 02:16:20 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 02:16:20 -0000 Subject: Madam Hooch: Yellow Eyes? In-Reply-To: <1a27384005061512537ba114f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dina Lerret wrote: > On 6/15/05, fanofminerva wrote: > > > his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish > > eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, > > > Wonder if there is a connection to Madame Hooch? > > Possibly related to Remus Lupin? {g} I could've sworn Lupin's eye > colour was referenced as being in the yellow/gold spectrum. > Nope. They have dark circles under them, and his eyes twinkle, but no colour references... From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Jun 16 02:21:58 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 02:21:58 -0000 Subject: SPOILER WARNING: HBP Covers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130779 Spoiler Warning Spoiler Warning Spoiler Warning Spoiler Warning Spoiler Warning Spoiler Warning Spoiler Warning Spoiler Warning Spoiler Warning I just read an interesting speculation on another site. It was suggested that the fire we see encircling Harry and Dumbledore on the UK childrens' cover may actually come from Heliopaths. That opens up a number of possibilities. Are they attacking Harry and DD or protecting them? And if they are attacking, why? Is it part of a desperate attempt by Fudge or Umbridge to "get even?" Anyway, an interesting possibility, even if it turns out to be untrue. Lupinlore From prncssme at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 01:41:27 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:41:27 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: <20050614185812.34371.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130780 Juli: > I have to disagree with you here, I don't think that > Sirius tries to mold Harry into James, he sees they > are a lot alike but he clearly differences them. Sure > Sirius would love to get James back, but he knows it's > not possible, he knows the only link he's got to his > best friend is Harry. But he also sees Harry as his > "son", someone he's always looking out for, and yes, > someone he loves more than anyone. Princess Sara: Hmmm...I do think he recognizes that they are different people but I don't think he likes that fact. I just keep thinking about this passage: "There was a pause in which Sirius looked out of the fire at Harry, a crease between his sunken eyes. 'You're less like your father than I thought,' he said finally, a definite coolness in his voice. 'The risk would've been what made it fun for James.' " (OotP, UK paperback edition pg 273) It's probably a matter of interprestation but I think there is a definite unspoken "...so be more like James so I can have fun again" tacked onto that statement. I don't think Sirius ever believes that Harry is James, but he is definitely disappointed by the fact that Harry is not a carbon-copy of his old school chum. And though I think Sirius truly cares about Harry in a father-son type of way, he falls into the mistake that many step-parents make: trying to be more of a friend than an authority figure. All of this is just IMHO, of course. My interpretation of the above passage is just an interpretation. :o) From natti_shafer at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 02:24:08 2005 From: natti_shafer at yahoo.com (Nathaniel) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 02:24:08 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--Replies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130781 > Pippin: > > Sirius didn't tell us his reasoning, but we know he > assumed that only he, James, Peter and Lily knew about the > switch, and that Lupin didn't. In that case, only Peter > could have told Voldemort about the switch, ergo Peter > was the spy. But Sirius could have been wrong. > > The idea that Sirius only vaguely suspected Lupin loses > credibility once we find out in OOP that there were > others close to Lily and James. Presumably anyone > in Moody's photo, barring the deceased, could have > been the spy. There had to be some reason that Sirius > specifically thought it was Lupin. > Nathaniel: I disagree on both counts. Second objection first. Being in the the original Order of the Phoenix hardly constitutes being close to the Potters. Acquainted with, yes. Close to, no. The whole reason that Dumbledore tried to dissuade the Potters from choosing Sirius as their Secret Keeper is that someone close to them had been passing information about the Potters movements. If it had been any one in the Order of the Phoenix, then their knowledge would not be specific to the Potters, but would pertain rather to all Phoenix members. Now if Sirius deeply, firmly believed that Lupin was the Spy, then his first thought would have been, "How did Lupin know about the switch? How did he get the information out of Peter?" We know that a Secret Keeper does not need to directly convey the information to the recipient. Their writing will suffice, as that is how Dumbledore conveyed the location of 12 Grimmauld Place to Harry. Perhaps, other second hand means would be sufficient as well. (Pensieve, or wizarding photograph taken by the Secret Keeper of the location perhaps?) So if Sirius truely, firmly believed that Lupin was the spy, Peter could have simply been careless and accidently conveyed the information to Lupin. Sirius might ask, "How could Peter have been so careless as to leave their location written down?" Or "How could he have been so weak as to give the information over to Lupin?" Instead, Sirius quickly drops his passing notion that Lupin might be the spy and reassigns his suspicions to Peter. He chases Peter down and his already in accuasation mode. He does not ask Peter how Lupin got the information out out of him. He once again underestimated Peter (as everyone seems to do . . .) and Peter gets the drop on him, blowing up the street and seemingly himself. -Nathaniel (Natti) From prncssme at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 02:07:50 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 02:07:50 -0000 Subject: HBP Predictions -- Contest Entry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130782 Princess Sara: As a recent de-lurker, I feel it is my civic duty to enter the contest. :o) 1. Next most major character to be killed. Someone in the Order. My bets are on a Weasley or Dumbledore. 2. Who is the HBP? Godric Gryffindor, of course! 3. Lily's big secret. She wasn't supposed to die in the attack on Godric's Hollow. That's why her sacrifice was so powerful. 4. New DADA teacher: I'm liking Dumbledore in the position because it would put Snape in a right snit, which would possibly call his loyalty into question and reveal the reason why Dumbledore trusts him but won't give him the DADA position. 5. Harry's romantic relationship. No one but he'll begin to show interest in Ginny...which she ignores. 6. New minister of magic? I'm going out on a limb and saying...Lucius Malfoy! If you look at the Papal succession way back in the day, Pope Lucius I deposed the previous pope and kept him imprisoned for *two years* before a rebel force assasinated Lucius. It could happen in the HP-verse too! ;o) 7. Bowl thing? penseive 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions. Yeppers. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions. Only if he has a death wish 10. O.W.L.s Harry will recieve: All but History of Magic and Astronomy Five predictions: 1. Luna will cozy up to Ron and Hermione's unexpected jealousy will be the catalyst for Hermy and Ronnie-kins to couple up. 2. ESE!Percy will make his debut, possibly killing or harming a family member. 3. We'll find out that the Potter family is related to Godric Gryffindor, hence the importance of the HBP to Harry. 4. Harry will become a full member of the Order. 5. Harry leaves the Dursley's in order to go on some super secret mission w/Dumbledore at Spinner's End. From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Thu Jun 16 02:51:05 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:51:05 EDT Subject: Preordered copy of book 6 Message-ID: <6.472af714.2fe24319@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130783 Hey, someone I work with, said that the place where he preordered his book from, says he'll get it 2 weeks early because that store will get their books 2 weeks before the 16th. I of course don't believe him because he wouldn't tell me what store it was. Has anyone else heard of anything like this. I always thought the stores didn't even get the potter books until at least 2 days before they go on sale. Just wanted to see if anyone else has heard. Hey, isn't it cool that the books have had more than half a million preordered. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Jun 16 03:10:36 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 03:10:36 -0000 Subject: "Some Won't Like It" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130784 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > I've got a broader take on what that means. JKR said > that in this book we would start to get the answers. > Some people have taken very dogmatic positions > on what the answers ought to be, and been quite > forthright in saying that no alternative interpretation > would satisfy them. > > > Pippin Sorry to be so late replying to this, as I just stumbled across it. I think you may be correct in general, Pippin. I wonder how closely JKR follows most fandom arguments, though. Certainly on the major issues like Snape and Harry she seems to keep an eye on the pulse of the fans. But how far she goes with watching other trends I don't know. And I seriously doubt she follows much beyond general trends. I can't imagine she would be particularly worried about/enthralled by specific debates over character and plot, at least beyond perusing them for amusement. Certainly you are correct about how many in the fandom will approach the last two books. I will toss the whole series in the trash if we don't get a much better explanation of Dumbledore's decisions regarding Harry, particularly his years at the Dursleys and why the greatest wizard in the world didn't intervene to stop flagrant child abuse. Others will burn the books if Harry winds up with Hermione, or if Snape turns out to be evil after all. At this point, the fandom is so deeply divided that anything JKR does will result in angering some semi-organized constituency. The price of success, I suppose. [Shrug] Like I say, I doubt JKR herself is paying much attention to anything other than overall trends. Lupinlore From frost_indri at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 03:57:03 2005 From: frost_indri at yahoo.com (frost_indri) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 03:57:03 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: yeay. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130785 Sorry if this comes as a double post, I was trying to send it to both addies and I sent it to only one by accident, but I'm not sure which. So I'm guessing Tigerpatronus and sending it again to the group as a whole... ::: Behold, another lurker is sucked out by this magnet. :p TigerPatronus > Rules: > If you are JKR, work at the publishing company, or have somehow else > have already read the book, don't enter. We will find out, hunt you > down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. > Ummm... maybe someone's already commented on this, but You'd give JKR a virtual Thermonuclear wedgie? I mean, seriously, her messing with our heads is a little mean, but given her position, can you blame her? :} > > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) I believe that the Half-blood prince is a honorary title, not a sign of actual nobility. I think that it is a historical figure, but not "The Old Lion Guy." Possibly someone mentioned in passing in the History of Magic. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She had some sort of prior relationship to Tom Riddle/Voldemort. NOT romantic at all. (Or at least I really hope not. Ergh... creepy vibes.) > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Someone not well known before this. (Unnamed, unknown.) > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Himself! Erhem. I mean, no one. I think there will be overtones of interest, but he'll be too depressed/self-centered/busy for any such thing. Hopefully by the end someone will help pull him out of it, but it won't be a dating relationship. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amiela Bones. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? NOT Dumbledore's pensive, that's for sure. (DD's Pensive is portable, unlike that thing.) I think the Bowl is the Pensive/scrying version of "Hogwarts, A History." Laced with the memories of the founders and headmasters through the years. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. This question is illegal by your own rules, as the "Adult" cover of HBP that was released has the "Advanced Potions" book on it. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. Not if he can help it. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All but Divination, Astronomy, and History. I forget how many that is exactly. *blushes* > Predictions (0-10 points each): > 1. Snape and Harry with have one hell of a show/down confrontation where their differences are adequatly resolved or buried. (Please note "adequately." This does not mean that they become friends or even respect each other. I'm just expecting Harry to have to eat some crow on this one.) > 2. It turns out that there is some sort of spy/infiltration into the Order by the DeathEaters. > 3. Scurvy-grass, lovagr, and sneazewort. One of these was used on Sirius, some sort of poison/potion introduced to the environment by the afore mentioned Spy. Basically taking a man on the edge and giving him that helpful little push... > 4. The "caved in" Passage way mentioned by Fred and George comes into play. > 5. Grawp's presence is made known to the school at large, and he is much more well behaved than at any point in book 5. From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 16 04:36:52 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:36:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Preordered copy of book 6 Message-ID: <410-2200564164365293@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130786 > > Hey, someone I work with, said that the place where he preordered his book > from, says he'll get it 2 weeks early because that store will get their books 2 > weeks before the 16th. I of course don't believe him because he wouldn't > tell me what store it was. Has anyone else heard of anything like this. I always > thought the stores didn't even get the potter books until at least 2 days > before they go on sale. Just wanted to see if anyone else has heard. > Hey, isn't it cool that the books have had more than half a million > preordered. > > *************************************************************** Chancie: Well, I hate to be rude, but your co-worker is a big fat liar! NO ONE is allowed to release the book prior to July 16 at 12:01am. Even if the stores get the book early, they would be at risk of not being allowed to carry the books at all anymore, and NO store is going to pass that up. Besides, JKR was granted an injunction because of the 2 people who stole a copy, an tried to sell it to a news paper. It basically says that: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ anyone who obtains a copy of HBP before July 16 begins is obligated to turn it over to JKR or Bloomsbury, and is also barred from disclosing any contents of the book, including the story, plot, characters or dedication. In other words, one cannot summarize the plot and try to get around the order in that way; technically, someone who's read the book cannot even say whether Harry Potter has a line of dialogue in the book. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So you might want to tell this person that when his copy is delivered, "early", that he might not want to accept it, since I hear those international shipping fees can be some what expensive. TLC also has a copy of the injunction that you can view and even take a copy to work with you and then see what he has to say. Chancie~who wishes it actually was possible to get HBP early, because she' rather impatient! From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Thu Jun 16 05:54:50 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:54:50 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILER - (Images in Bloomsbury Screen Saver!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130787 S P O I L E R * W A R N I N G * S P O I L E R * W A R N I N G * >Hmm, I did some cloning to make the join look a bit more like a proper >join without a crack, and you can see the results in the Files >Section, HBP-Ring, joined-cloned.jpg It looks pretty good to me. >The other thing that interests me is the "wall" behind the boat on the >lake. There appears to be letters in the gyrations of the tree limbs. >I cannot work it out. >Chris (in Australia) I speculated before about this. (How DO you look up message numbers?) I have two possible ways of looking at the wall. Both seem to show monsters, but the one I prefer is an image of a dragon's head, with the top of the head to the upper right and the snout angling down to the left. There appears to be a curly tendril sticking up towards the end of the snout. One eye, the upper one looks fine; then there is a hole in the head, just to the right of the mid-line. The eye on the right (which would be the dragon's left eye) is obscured. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 06:23:22 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:23:22 -0000 Subject: The Order of the Phoenix/ was Re: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Gregory Lynn wrote: > > The Order of the Phoenix fights Voldemort, but why call it the Order of the Phoenix? Surely they are all willing to die in the fight, and Fawkes at least showed that he was willing to die in the fight at the Ministry. And yet it seems there should be more than that because Phoenixes don't just die--they die and are reborn. > > Perhaps the Phoenix referred to is not really a phoenix, but a person who has accepted the responsibility of being "the Phoenix." I'm probably not going to say this well but I envision a line of people extending back into the past, perhaps to Godric Gryffindor who each pass their accumulated experiences to a successor. When one phoenix dies, he is "reborn" in his successor in the sense that the successor has inherited all the experiences of all the previous phoenixes. > > The phoenix is dedicated to fighting those who practice the dark arts. He accepts the pain and loneliness to help others (his tears have healing powers). He accepts the insanely difficult chore of fighting evil (he can bear very heavy burdens). > *************************************************************** Tonks: I think that The Order of the Phoenix is called that because it represents the concept of eternal life and of the death and resurrection of Jesus. In this way it is the symbol of the early Christian Church, with the original *Phoenix* being Jesus. I see Fawkes as the Holy Spirit. I do also think that DD has that *special* power that comes from being the leader of this group. When you think about it here we have LV who is about 67 years old and Harry who is 16. One would think that LV should be defeated by some one of his generation, and that Harry would do battle with someone from his. But the story doesn't seem to be going that way, so we have to explore the transfer of power to the next generation of *keepers*. I do think that DD will transfer that *power* to Harry for Harry to battle for his generation against the older power of evil. In a sense it is like the transfer of power that came down to the Disciples from Jesus. This transfer of power occurred (and still occurs) in the Christian church and the same sort of thing may happen between DD and Harry. Like the Pope who is the Vicar of Christ on Earth, DD may be the same sort of thing in the WW and will transfer the (as I have called it before) *power of the Phoenix* and the teaching of the phoenix to Harry. To be a member of the Order of the Phoenix is for each member to fight the power of darkness where ever it may be found, even in one's self. And the leader is granted a special *power* which, as you say, comes down from generation to generation from the original source. Tonks_op From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 06:27:38 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:27:38 -0000 Subject: The Order of the Phoenix/ was Re: Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130789 Re: the postbefore this one .. I hope I did this right. There isn't a spoiler in this post, but do not go up thread. I probably goofed. Sorry. Just go forward and not back and you should be OK.. or maybe not.. Where is an elf when you need one?? Tonks From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 16 06:34:05 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:34:05 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Percy's Prospects (was Re: Ending the series) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "joyfulstoryteller" wrote: Joyfulstoryteller: I'm sure > that Amelia Bones will have had plenty to report to her mother about > the last school year. I don't think that Percy's career at the > Ministry will be able to survive a second inquiry. He could end up > sacked, or at least demoted to some closet even more obscure than the > one his father's Department is currently lodged in. Geoff: Please excuse a rush of pedantry to the head, but you mean Susan Bones. Her mother is Amelia Susan Bones. (OOTP "The Hearing" p.127 UK edition) From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 07:08:38 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Voldemort Didn't Die (was Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050616070838.14188.qmail@web32707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130791 Gregory Lynn wrote: She who made this world tells us the question we should be asking is not "Why did Harry live?" but "Why didn't Voldemort die?" Lynn: There has been a lot of speculation on a couple of topics. First, how will Harry defeat Voldemort and second, what was the gleam of triumph Harry saw in Dumbledore's eyes when he exammined where Wormtail took Harry's blood. Is it possible that both of these things are now related? Is it possible that Harry has already defeated Voldemort and at Volemort's own hand and Dumbledore knows this? Or, given that Dumbledore kept his distance early in OOP, could it be that he knew this exchange of blood would strengthen the bond between Harry and Voldemort and it is this bond that will eventually defeat Voldemort? Any thoughts? test'; "> --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 03:27:21 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge, Harry's Expulsion, and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050616032721.89783.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130792 Angie wrote (edited): If Fudge is not in cahoots with Voldemort, but knows about the Prophecy and believes Harry is the one with the power to defeat Voldemort, then why on earth would he be so keen to expel Harry from Howgarts and take away his wand? How could Harry defeat Voldemort if he has no wand and doesn't continue to learn magic? Fudge can't be that incompetent, can he? Juli replies: I think the reason is that Fudge DOES NOT believe LV is back, therefore Harry isn't in any danger. Now that he knows LV is back, I bet he's going to start being really nice to Harry, cause he probably knows DD and HP are the only hope the WW has. Juli __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rowanbrookt at hotmail.com Thu Jun 16 07:15:10 2005 From: rowanbrookt at hotmail.com (rowanbrookt) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:15:10 -0000 Subject: COS - Hermione didn't face the Boggart. Meaning? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130793 I have been reading COS again and realised that in Lupin's Boggart lesson Harry isn't the only one not to face the Boggart. Lupin purposly lets every pupil but Harry experience the Boggart, but now I realise he also didn't let Hermione have a go. Ron teases her that her most frightening thing ever would be a homework that only got 9/10, but I wonder if JKR will return to the fact that Hermione didn't face the Boggart in a later book. Maybe Lupin knows something about Hermione's past that hasn't been reveiled in the books. After all, we know very little about Hermione's home life. Maybe Hermione will play a much bigger part, other than Harry's friend, or maybe she has suffered in some way. What do you think? From cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 04:39:17 2005 From: cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com (cleverestwitchofherage) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 04:39:17 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Percy's Prospects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130794 "joyfulstoryteller" wrote: > Sadly, Percy seems to garner most of his self-esteem from his > association with authority, and since he backed the wrong authority, > his self-esteem is probably pretty low right now. This will make him > vulnerable to anyone skilled at manipulation, and Voldemort is a > master. > (Snip) I rather suspect that the chances of Percy getting involved > with Voldemort's supporters is high. He has already faced one inquiry > at the MOM [and] (Snip) I don't think that Percy's career at the > Ministry will be able to survive a second inquiry. He could end up > sacked, or at least demoted to some closet even more obscure than the > one his father's Department is currently lodged in. > > I think that losing his appearance of being able to influence powerful > individuals is going to be a real blow to Percy. Cleverwitch here: I agree with joyfulstoryteller about Percy's future, but fear that the deaths he will cause will be those of Fred and George rather than that of Dumbledore. It has been obvious all through the series that Percy is all about law and order, while the twins have a very cavalier attitude toward the rules. This is a conflict waiting to happen, but it has not yet happened, and that is the main reason I fear for the lives of Gred and Forge. I don't think they take Percy seriously enough. He was an extremely gifted student. With a powerful backer and the right motivation, he could be a very dangerous adversary. He is ambitious, proud, and bitter toward his family--especially toward the twins and his father. Ron suggested once (in GoF?) that Percy would be willing to turn family members over to the Dementors if they stood in the way of his career. I can easily see his going over to the dark side, or else into the department of magical law enforcement--(I am allowing for the fact that he might just go into the law enforcement department and NOT become a Deatheater--as Sirius pointed out, the world is not divided into good people and Deatheaters)--or both, and then going after his brothers, feeling entirely justified in doing so. And I do fear for them. Or he could just be Dumbledore's mole after all A few random thoughts from --Cleverwitch From maliksthong at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 05:36:13 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:36:13 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore knows more - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130795 > > Chris (Labmystc@) wrote: > > >I think DD knows this is the most reliable way because somehow he > > >can see the future. > > >snip< > > >There is a lot more going on with DD than we all can possibly > > >imagine. > > Chys: Yes, like his amazing ability to look out a window. I though that was it each time I read it, but this elaborate plot seems thrilling in comparison! In the quote they were visible to the window, and DD was in there, HE's the one who stopped them from going out right at that moment. Who says he didn't glance out himself? So obviously.... Chys From labmystc at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 04:48:38 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 04:48:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore vs Fudge Chp 27 in OotP (long) (was:Re: Dumbledore the Strategist...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy Hp: > I'm not seeing any clear-cut signal from Dumbledore to Kingsley. > Kingsley is a top-level Auror well used, I imagine, to thinking on > his feet. Dumbledore *does* make clear that evidence of continuing > meetings would be a bad thing [615]. And he later praises Kingsley > for thinking quickly. > > "He was remarkably quick on the uptake, modifying Miss Edgecombe's > memory like that while everyone was looking the other way -- thank > him for me, won't you Minerva?" [621] > > It seems to me that Kingsley acted on his own. Just as I'm sure he > maneuvered to be one of the Aurors accompanying Fudge to Hogwarts. > It's no secret to the Order that part of their battle, at this > point, is with the Ministry. But he does give Shacklebolt signals in his speech. Using the same edition of OoTP: "Well," said Dumbledore, surveying her with polite interest over the top of his interlocked fingers, "the certainly WOULD be, if they HAD continued after the decree came into effect. Do you have any evidence that these meetings continued?" My empasis was caps, in the text it was in italics. While DD was saying these words, Shacklebolt modified Marietta's memory. I respect Shacklebolt as an auror and a member of the Order, however it looks as if he is prompted here. *snip* > But then Fudge points out that the group have named themselves > Dumbledore's Army. "Dumbledore reached out and took the piece of >parchment from Fudge. He gazed at the heading scribbled by Hermione >months before and for a moment seemed unable to speak. Then he >looked up smiling." [618] > > We see Dumbledore thinking here. The DA used his name. I don't think the slight pause is DD thinking how to respond. I honestly think he is moved that Harry and the group had chosen to call themselves "Dumbledore's Army." I think he gets slightly emotional at the thought, and has to pause. *snip* > >>Chris: > >DD steers the entire conversation away from Harry, puts it on > himself, and then stuns everybody in the room with no more trouble > than popping a lemon drop into his mouth.< > > Betsy Hp: > True, we never see him sweat. But that's because Dumbledore is a > bad-ass and Fudge is an incompetent. No need for special powers for > Dumbledore to prevail. A cool head and some quick thinking was more > than enough to rule the day. (Though I would argue that things > became a bit more complicated than eating candy in there. > Dumbledore just knew enough to not allow his anxieties to show.) Do you really think he is anxious? I agree with your statement above that Dumbledore is a bad-ass. Most normal bad-asses are secure enough to think they can overcome any situation, but most can still get fearful in certain situations. I just don't see this with Dumbledore. He overcomes Fudge, Umbridge, and Dawlish (a trained auror) trashing his office in the process, and it seems like a walk in the park. I laughed out loud at the line: "Don't be silly Dawlish...I'm sure your an excellent auror...but if you attempt to-er- bring me in by force, I will have to hurt you" (620) Does this sound like someone anxious to you? Also, look at the scene in the Veil room. Dumbledore strides in, and wheels the DE's in like fish on a line. Then there's the confrontation with LV. He acts facing the darkest Wizard in the world is nothing to him. Jo describes it as "...though he had not a fear in the world, as though nothing had happened to interrupt his stroll up the hall." (814) > >>Chris: > >I understand that people like DD, and I am one of those people. BUt > there are just too many circumstances where DD knows what is going > on before everyone else does.< > > Betsy Hp: > This was not one of those times. Can you point out any others? > Times when not even a keen sense of observation or a little skill > with Legilimency would make a difference? I pointed one out in an earlier post in which the subject of Harry and Hermione going back in time was discussed (I can't remember which post, but it's the one with Buckbeak and the Time Turner.) > I have to agree with you that DD has a keen and powerful mind, and that he is a great strategist. But there is something else going on with him that I can't put my finger on. Maybe it's just instinct...perhaps it is wishful thinking. We shall have to see. Chris From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 07:51:06 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:51:06 -0000 Subject: Flamel is Dead (Was: Re: HBP:Cover: Spolier) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130797 Nora provided: > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/rumours_view.cfm?id=32 > > Nicolas Flamel is going to come to Hogwarts to teach potions > > Flamel has now died; Dumbledore explained in `Philosopher's Stone' that > his old friend was going to choose death rather than allow his stone to > fall into the wrong hands. > > ----------------- > > Hard to reinterpret that one, but I'm sure someone here will take a > stab at it because JKR is sneaky, right? Finwitch: JKR did not say anything about Mrs Flamel - does SHE still live? I'd guess that she's learned loads about Potions/Alchemy during the 650+ years she has lived. NOW died -- so he's been alive for a few years since the stone was destroyed. I'd say that she could still live for 2 years... Finwitch From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 08:17:35 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050616081735.36302.qmail@web32704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130798 horridporrid03 wrote: But then suddenly, Sirius takes a deep dive into toxic- adult land, that to my mind is just not explainable by, "I've been in this house for a WEEK, a WEEK I tell you! I've gone MAAAAD!!" Because that's the huge reason I think Depressed!Sirius doesn't work. In the course of one week he slides from Grumpy!Sirius to the reckless and hateful Depressed!Sirius of the fire call? I just don't buy it. It's too schizophrenic. It's not like Sirius has been in solitary or anything. Within the first week of Harry going away he gets a letter from his godson asking for his help. And how does Sirius handle the conversation that follows? With a vicious attack on Harry that would give even Snape pause. Odd behavior to my mind. Sirius isn't just acting illogically. He's being incredibly cruel. To Harry. His attack is very specifically aimed at Harry. (I'm not an expert, but do depressed people generally lash out at loved ones like that?) But what is most illogical to me is the 180 degree spin from helpful and supportive Godfather, to petulant and hurtful Godfather. Within a time frame of less than two weeks. Lynn: It is obvious you are not an expert on depression and it appears that you've also been fortunate enough not to have had to deal with a clinically depressed person on a regular basis. First, not all depression is emotional; there is also physical depression. This is when there is an imbalance in the seratonin levels in the brain. Many people have "seasonal" depression particually in the Fall when the reduction of sunlight facilitates the imbalance. This may apply to Sirius. From what we learned, Sirius was apparently living in a sunny climate and even when we last saw him in GOF, it was the beginning of summer. When we see him again, he is in a very dark place. That sudden shift could cause a seratonin imbalance which would bring on depression. And no, it doesn't take weeks or months. It can take as little as a week or less so for it to have been two week to a month is entirely plausible. Add to this, Sirius would have emotional issues to contribute to any depression. I think one of the biggest was that he didn't save his best friend and he also wasn't there to save Harry. In this dark, dank house he hates, he has time to dwell on that. He was dealing with a lot of guilt which is why I found Molly's comment about all those years in Azkaban particularly cruel. Add to all this the fact that he feels worthless to the Order. Oh yea, I can see a quick plunge into the depths of depression. I see any amount of drunkness speaking more to trying to drown the pain he is feeling rather than alcoholism. As to depressed people lashing out at loved ones, well you can ask my husband about that. It is totally irrational and comes as a surprise from left field, and no, I'm not schizophrenic. It is probably the biggest signal that I am in a freefall of depression and that I should start taking meds again. It is usually in the Fall but it can happen throughout the year depending on various stimulus such as lack of sunshine, diet, exercise, amount of sleep, stress and other factors. All these factors appear to be an influence in Sirius's life at this point. That he was still up so late when Arthur Weasley was hurt can point to insomnia, another symptom of depression. It happens quickly and a person is there before they are aware of it. Given the tenor of the WW, depression would probably be seen as a shameful thing, in fact, it still is today as many people still see people who suffer from this illness as weak, emotional cripples. People are judged by those with insufficient facts regarding the illness and so people keep it a secret. However, just as those with diabetes need insulin to keep their blood sugar levels stable, so people with the illness of depression may need medication to keep their brain chemicals stable. However, I doubt Sirius would have sought help for it and it is obvious no one in the Order had a clue about any of it. Given that Sirius cannot affect some of those things that contribute to the physical depression (lack of sun, lack of exercise, proper diet, continued stress) as well as the emotional depression (feeling worthless, being somewhere he hates, etc.) it is doubtful that he could "climb out" of it without help - help that he will neither ask for nor which is forthcoming from another arena. There is no "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" with clinical depression no matter how hard one tries. I believe his wanting to get out of the house as an instinctive knowledge that he needs to change his surroundings in order to fight through what he is dealing with. We see no evidence of alcoholism prior to OOP and even in OOP, we only see Sirius drinking. In fact, since it appears Sirius is able to function during the Christmas visit without any alcohol that we know of, evidence would point away from alcoholism rather than to it. However, we can point to 13 years in Azkaban when searching for depression and it may well be that Sirius suffered with depression as a teenager given his home circumstances. As usual, IMO based on personal experience --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 08:23:24 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:23:24 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Percy's Prospects (was Re: Ending the series) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "joyfulstoryteller" > wrote: > > Joyfulstoryteller: > I'm sure > > that Amelia Bones will have had plenty to report to her mother about > > the last school year. I don't think that Percy's career at the > > Ministry will be able to survive a second inquiry. He could end up > > sacked, or at least demoted to some closet even more obscure than the > > one his father's Department is currently lodged in. > > Geoff: > Please excuse a rush of pedantry to the head, but you mean Susan Bones. > Her mother is Amelia Susan Bones. > > (OOTP "The Hearing" p.127 UK edition) JLV: Really sorry to be correcting the correction (please excuse the rush of pedantry etc etc) but Amelia Bones of the Ministry is Susan Bones' aunt, not her mother. I believe she says this at the Hog's Head meeting (IIRC). From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 16 10:48:20 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:48:20 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--Replies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130800 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > A very neat solution is to suppose that Voldemort used > the codename "Wormtail" for his spy all along, so that > the DE's never knew that Peter and Lupin were two > different people.They're physically different of course, > but the DE's are quite familiar with the uses of > polyjuice potion. Gerry Usually I stay out of this debate because I think -though interesting to read- the theory of ESE!Lupin is completele and utter nonsense an can only be upheld by twisting canon and strange logic (sorry Pippin), but this bit I made my fingers itch. Why would LV use as codename for his spy the very name Peter used for himself as part of the Marauders? Ofcourse Pippin would probably argue that this is another proof of clever Lupin who sets up Peter. But I am very curious how Pippin will explain away Trelawney's Prediction. "The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant ha been chained these twelve years. Tonight, before midnight, the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater an dmore terrible than ever before. (PoA, p.238 Bloomsbury hardcover edition)." And we know from GoF that Peter indeed rejoins LV, and is very, very usefull to him. Also with Sirius in Azkaban, why would Peter have stayed a rat for all these years? Because of Lupin somewhere free? This would mean Peter is such a good friend and he fears Lupin so much he rather has his friend Sirius rot in Azkaban than tell somebody (for example DD) the truth... Gerry, who really wonders what Pippin will do as in the rest of the books there will be no ESE!Lupin. Gerry From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 12:27:51 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:27:51 -0000 Subject: I'm presenting "Snape's Appeal in Canon: Severus, Meet Sherlock" at this fall's Harry Potter Symposium in Salem!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivienne_davalon" wrote: > > 1) The paper I am presenting is called "Snape's Appeal in Canon: > Severus, Meet Sherlock" and the summary follows: KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I personally have never read the Sherlock Holmes stories, Generally I have only seem the potrail in tv movies and the like. In most of the movies I've ever watched related to Holes they make him out to be a hero. I'm sure you can also compare this to how Snape is shown in Fanon, and also in the HP movies to a degree. I have not read a lot of fanfic's to be able to like Snape from Fanon, so, my regard for the character has come from the book's and the movie, but mostly from the books since, their are only 3 movies so far and I've read all five books. I personally have a list of some reason Snape may be appealing, feel free to use them if they appeal to you :-) To some people it is the mystery, they don't know much about him so, they crave and imagine what they do not know. In reading OOTP, some are much like Harry, they are feeling a bit sorry for Snape, maybe even now have sympathy for him in a way they never did before. For some who may have had similar experiences in school with being bullied, or were deamed "The little oddball", they might even see a little bit of themself in Snape. For the adults fans who may have, shall we say, a sarcastic wit about them, well, nothing beats a smart ass, now does it. For some, it is hard to know which side he is on, but to some he is trying to do the right thing, despite his unfriendly personality, and their is a certain nobility in doing the right thing, even if you hate it. For some, dealing with a school full of teenagers is enough to pull out your hair, add in the little fact of teenagers with magical abilites that can kill you, and lets just say, one might totally understand why he's such a git. Another reason is, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, some fans tend to read what Harry is thinking about Snape, and take it with a grain of salt, one would not think teenagers would describe their least likeable teacher as: he looks ok, or his looks are normal, one would assume any young teenage boy would pick out the worst qualities and amplify them to suit their own idea of the person. Another reason some like him, he appears to be single, nothing says attractive to a female like: single, mysterious, a bit of a bad boy, a little sad and lonely, and powerful. It doesn't matter what he looks like in this case, he's exciting simply because of those fact. Also, their are not so many adult characters in the book with a major role, who are the adult fans supposed like, everyone's not going to like the same thing in a character, is their not room for everyone to like their favorite character for whatever reason, without getting their opinions squashed just because one doesn't agree, or do we have th change the characters just to suit our own needs, can't the character be what it is, just how it is..oh wait, this is the internet isn't it...darn. Another reason, Vampire folk. I hope some of you don't get offended by this comment, but some Vampire lovers and Gothic types have turned him into their posterchild. Some protest with much anger at you when you tell them you don't think Snape is a vampire, talk about biting your head off! I am personally one who hope he is not a vampire, simply for the fact, the whole vampire thing is just...too overdone now adays in my opinion. It seems Snape being a darn wizard is not enough for some, he has to be a vampire also....sorry, I'm ranting now, but anyway, for me personally, if JKR turns Snape into a vampire, I will be sourly disapointed. OK, to go along with that theory, another of my own personal feelings/opinions. Some want to turn Snape into, well fanon. It seems to me, if one wanted a knight in shinning armor, one would write another novel about another character, and not Snape. If one wants a Snarky wizard, then write him Snarky, not loveiedoveie. Some can write Snape very well, and also make him acceptable, even if they are giving him a romatic role, or giving him a love of his own, or making him fall in love, or, have him doing something nice, like saving a puppy..whatever...etc etc. But, and this is a big but, when Snape turns into a puppy himself and is spouting love sonnets, or is totally out of character...I'm sorry...for whatever reason, I personally don't want his character to change that much. Making the character perfect is not an option for me. I do remember JKR answering a question and saying something along the lines of "I've made the perfect little hero"(not sure if thats exact)but, She was speaking about Harry, and it was in reply to a Snape question I believe. To me, perfect isn't easy, and, in all honesty, I do not want perfect anymore, in life, or from characters in books. One would also see that JKR did not make Harry perfect, maybe a "perfect hero", but not perfect. So, why would Snape himself have to live up to perfection and no other character has in the book. It is easy to dismiss it, and say well Snape should do XYZ because he should just get over things. But, noone yet knows his whole story, its like judging someone you hardly know and saying, that person is stuckup, just because said person may not speak to you, maybe they are shy, maybe they are very quiet and don't talk much. Perhaps you are in high opinion of yourself and think everyone should speak to you...hum...sorry, I went into Snape mode their. But, I myself have found people to be easy to judge, and not very quick to forgive or give up their opinions about people or characters. So I personally see a lot of Snape in the fans who clame to hate Snape...go figure. OK, so, their are some reasons I think folks like the Canon Snape, and a couple of my own person thoughs thrown in for salting. Feel free to use any you like to prove the case that some folks do like book Snape, cause not everyone reads fanon religiously. KarentheUnicorn From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 13:19:41 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:19:41 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130802 This has been puzzling me for some time. As I understand it, the whole point of everything DD did in OotP was to keep LV from learning the remainder of the prophecy. After the battle in the MoM, LV knows that the prophecy has smashed and the contents are lost. DD knows that Harry has not got far with Occlumancy and that LV is aware of the connection so can access Harry's mind. Why then does DD immediately tell Harry the contents of the prophecy? Now LV can get it from Harry's mind. If it was so important that LV didn't find out then why not continue the "Oh dear the prophecy is smashed" line. If it's suddenly not really that important that LV could access it from Harry, why did DD have to stay away from Harry all year, leave him stewing in ignorance all summer and allow a situation to develop that ended up in the loss of one of the most important people in Harry's world? Any thoughts? Karen From buffyeton at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 13:30:59 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:30:59 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: If it's suddenly not really that important that LV could access it from Harry, why did DD have to stay away from Harry all year, leave him stewing in > ignorance all summer and allow a situation to develop that ended up in > the loss of one of the most important people in Harry's world? > > Any thoughts? > > Karen I think it is because DD realized that keeping major secrets from Harry, the whys of things so to speak, put Harry and the people around him in greater danger than if Harry didn't know those things. For instance, if Harry HAD known about the prophecy he wouldn't have resisted the lessons from Snape, because he would have known what was down the corridor and behind the door. So he wouldn't have wanted the dreams to continue to find out what was there. He would have made better choices, or at least had the chance to make better ones. Tamara From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 14:06:37 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:06:37 -0000 Subject: COS - Hermione didn't face the Boggart. Meaning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130804 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowanbrookt" wrote: > I have been reading COS again and realised that in Lupin's Boggart > lesson Harry isn't the only one not to face the Boggart. Lupin > purposly lets every pupil but Harry experience the Boggart, but now I > realise he also didn't let Hermione have a go. > > Ron teases her that her most frightening thing ever would be a homework > that only got 9/10, but I wonder if JKR will return to the fact that > Hermione didn't face the Boggart in a later book .....snip..... > > What do you think? First - I think you are re-reading PoA, not CoS... unless you have a very rare edition! Second - I believe that Hermione does not face the Boggart in the lesson to disguise the fact that Harry doesn't. Lupin pretends the reason is that they answered questions correctly at the start of the class. In the end, only Harry notices he's been stopped form fighting the Boggart and everyone gets points for Gryffindor at the end of the lesson. Third - and as you are re-reading and can't remember the ending P o A S P O I L E R Hermione does face a Boggart in her Final exam in PoA. It is Professor McGonagall telling her she's failed. She emerges from the encounter very upset and, it appears, has not cast riddikulus correctly. JLV xx From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 14:35:21 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:35:21 -0000 Subject: Fudge, Harry's Expulsion, and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: <20050616032721.89783.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130805 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > Angie wrote (edited): > > If Fudge is not in cahoots with Voldemort, but knows > about the Prophecy and believes Harry is the one with > the power to defeat Voldemort, then why on earth would > he be so keen to expel Harry from Howgarts and take > away his wand? How could Harry defeat Voldemort if he > has no wand and doesn't continue to learn magic? > Fudge can't be that incompetent, can he? > > Juli replies: I think the reason is that Fudge DOES > NOT believe LV is back, therefore Harry isn't in any > danger. Now that he knows LV is back, I bet he's going > to start being really nice to Harry, cause he probably > knows DD and HP are the only hope the WW has. > > Juli Precisely, Juli. Fudge thought that the terms of the prophecy had *already* been fulfilled when Harry was one year old. As far as Fudge was concerned, Voldemort was dead and could not return, *ever*. This smacks of a lack of thought about all the stuff about marking as equal etc, but as prophecies are generally vague, it is not unforgivable. Why think that a 'dead' man has come back to life? This, you'll note, is a mistake Fudge makes *twice*. The MfM only started getting annoyed with Harry and Dumbledore when they started saying that Sirius Black was innocent and Voldemort was not dead and was on his way back to power with the help of Peter Pettigrew. At the start of PoA he was nice as pie to Harry and stops him getting punished for the Aunt Marge debacle. As for him being nice to Harry again now the truth is out, this is possible (there may be some bitterness though), but his attitude won't make a lot of difference as, IIRC, he will be replaced by a new Minister for Magic in this book *because* he repeatedly ignored Harry and Dumbledore's warnings about the return of the Dark Lord. I would think that a vote of no confidence is on the cards. The trust of the wizarding world is lost. As for his reasons for ignoring the truth... I think it is because it was easier and less frightening to believe LV to be dead rather than plan a war and face the possibility of losing. It is also easier to be convinced you are right than accept you may have made a mistake. (And I really hope I haven't!). JMO, JLV xx From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 16 14:08:55 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:08:55 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILER - (Images in Bloomsbury Screen Saver!) References: Message-ID: <42B187F7.000010.03604@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 130806 Laura said...... S P O I L E R * W A R N I N G * S P O I L E R * W A R N I N G * >Hmm, I did some cloning to make the join look a bit more like a proper >join without a crack, and you can see the results in the Files >Section, HBP-Ring, joined-cloned.jpg It looks pretty good to me. >The other thing that interests me is the "wall" behind the boat on the >lake. There appears to be letters in the gyrations of the tree limbs. >I cannot work it out. >Chris (in Australia) I speculated before about this. (How DO you look up message numbers?) I have two possible ways of looking at the wall. Both seem to show monsters, but the one I prefer is an image of a dragon's head, with the top of the head to the upper right and the snout angling down to the left. There appears to be a curly tendril sticking up towards the end of the snout. One eye, the upper one looks fine; then there is a hole in the head, just to the right of the mid-line. The eye on the right (which would be the dragon's left eye) is obscured. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net >From Donna: I must have the wrong screensaver. Mine shows the "stone", "snake door", castle on island", "cup", "phoenix", and "book". What have I missed? Could someone help this poor old woman? Donna [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 15:47:13 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:47:13 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: yeay. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130807 > TigerPatronus > > Rules: > > > If you are JKR, work at the publishing company, or have somehow > else > > have already read the book, don't enter. We will find out, hunt > you > > down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "frost_indri" wrote: > Ummm... maybe someone's already commented on this, but You'd give > JKR a virtual Thermonuclear wedgie? I mean, seriously, her messing > with our heads is a little mean, but given her position, can you > blame her? :} Tiger: I don't play favorites. If you have actual knowledge and you cheat, you get an e-wedgie. (And if you are reading this, Jo, get back to work on HP7!) TK -- TigerPatronus From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 15:50:10 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:50:10 -0000 Subject: SPOILER - (Images in Bloomsbury Screen Saver!) In-Reply-To: <42B187F7.000010.03604@D33LDD51> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > Laura said...... > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > * > W > A > R > N > I > N > G > * > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > * > W > A > R > N > I > N > G > From Donna: > I must have the wrong screensaver. Mine shows the "stone", "snake door", > castle on island", "cup", "phoenix", and "book". What have I missed? Could > someone help this poor old woman? You got the "adult" version of the screensaver. I like that one better, myself. You need the "kids" version to see all the spoily stuff. TK -- TigerPatronus From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 16:04:19 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:04:19 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Percy's Prospects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cleverestwitchofherage" wrote: > "joyfulstoryteller" wrote: > > Sadly, Percy seems to garner most of his self-esteem from his > > association with authority, and since he backed the wrong > authority, > > his self-esteem is probably pretty low right now. This will make > him > > vulnerable to anyone skilled at manipulation, and Voldemort is a > > master. > > (Snip) I rather suspect that the chances of Percy getting involved > > with Voldemort's supporters is high. He has already faced one > inquiry > > at the MOM [and] (Snip) I don't think that Percy's career at the > > Ministry will be able to survive a second inquiry. He could end up > > sacked, or at least demoted to some closet even more obscure than > the > > one his father's Department is currently lodged in. > > > > I think that losing his appearance of being able to influence > powerful > > individuals is going to be a real blow to Percy. > > Cleverwitch here: > I agree with joyfulstoryteller about Percy's future, but fear that > the deaths he will cause will be those of Fred and George rather > than that of Dumbledore. It has been obvious all through the series > that Percy is all about law and order, while the twins have a very > cavalier attitude toward the rules. This is a conflict waiting to > happen, but it has not yet happened, and that is the main reason I > fear for the lives of Gred and Forge. I don't think they take Percy > seriously enough. He was an extremely gifted student. With a > powerful backer and the right motivation, he could be a very > dangerous adversary. He is ambitious, proud, and bitter toward his > family--especially toward the twins and his father. Ron suggested > once (in GoF?) that Percy would be willing to turn family members > over to the Dementors if they stood in the way of his career. I can > easily see his going over to the dark side, or else into the > department of magical law enforcement--(I am allowing for the fact > that he might just go into the law enforcement department and NOT > become a Deatheater--as Sirius pointed out, the world is not divided > into good people and Deatheaters)--or both, and then going after his > brothers, feeling entirely justified in doing so. And I do fear for > them. > Or he could just be Dumbledore's mole after all > A few random thoughts from > --Cleverwitch While Percy is ambitious, etc., the Sorting Hat must have "sorted through" these characteristics and found something more, placing him in Gryffindor. Could it be that we have yet to see these lion- traits in Percy? FanofMinerva From ellydan at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 17:06:22 2005 From: ellydan at yahoo.com (Melete) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Preordered copy of book 6 In-Reply-To: <410-2200564164365293@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050616170622.84668.qmail@web54601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130810 --- Chancie wrote: > > > > > Hey, someone I work with, said that the place > where he preordered his > book > > from, says he'll get it 2 weeks early because that > store will get their > books 2 > > weeks before the 16th. > > Chancie: > > Well, I hate to be rude, but your co-worker is a big > fat liar! NO ONE > is allowed to release the book prior to July 16 at > 12:01am. Even if > the stores get the book early, they would be at risk > of not being allowed > to carry the books at all anymore, and NO store is > going to pass that up. I wanted to confirm with Chancie on this. I work at a bookstore full time and there is no way we A. would get them that early. It's usually within the same week, or B. sell them early. Preordering a copy to our store means that the customer will have a copy held for them specifically (in case for some unknown reason the distributing centers were not to send enough copies for all the customers.) For those particular customers, we also hold them through the weekend. For customer who pay for a ship to home copy, we are told by the company that we are UPS will ship it to their mail centers on the 15th so that it will make it to their homes on the 16th. Even on this I'm a bit foggy except that they will try their hardest to get it to them sometime on the 16th. For the last book we received a big, huge shipment a few days prior to the book sale. The boxes were kept locked up until the day of the party. On that day the boxes were moved up to the cash registers and lined up behind them. With none being opened up until right before the first sale. We don't even get to peak at the book before the customers at all. Which is fine with me to be honest, I like that type of security actually. It really heightens the tension and excitement with all of us booksellers as well. >From what I understand, there a few major chains of stores that are not being allowed this year to sell Harry Potter because they did break the sale date last time. You can imagine what a fiscal loss this is for a bookstore to be refused such a huge booksale by the publishers. This is why strict-on-sale dates are so regimentally kept. Ellyddan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From natti_shafer at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 09:24:17 2005 From: natti_shafer at yahoo.com (Nathaniel) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:24:17 -0000 Subject: COS - Hermione didn't face the Boggart. Meaning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowanbrookt" wrote: I wonder if JKR will return to the fact that > Hermione didn't face the Boggart in a later book. Maybe Lupin knows > something about Hermione's past that hasn't been reveiled in the books. Sorry to disagree, but Hermione does face her bogart -- at the end of year exams. It turns out to be McGonnagal telling her she's failed everything is her boggart. This little plot point has alreay been fulfilled. -Nathaniel (Natti) From natti_shafer at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 09:36:50 2005 From: natti_shafer at yahoo.com (Nathaniel) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:36:50 -0000 Subject: Why is Ron allowed 2 friends at the World Cup? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130812 Sorry if this subject has been discussed before, but it isn't mentioned in the FAQ and it has bothered me for sometime now. Why is Ron allowed to take two of his friends to the World Cup and none of his many siblings are allowed to take any -- especially considering Hermione doesn't even particularly like Quidditch? Surely Lee Jordan, who comments on the Quidditch matches at Hogwarts would be interested in watching Bagman do the play-by-play from the box seats. It seems unfair to me that Ron gets to bring both his best friend and his second best friend, but no other Weasleys get to bring anyone. I know Hermione is also friends with Ginny, but she doesn't appear to be one of Ginny's best friends. Comments anyone? -Nathaniel (Natti) From smilingator81 at aol.com Thu Jun 16 12:24:57 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:24:57 -0000 Subject: COS - Hermione didn't face the Boggart. Meaning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowanbrookt" wrote: > I have been reading COS again and realised that in Lupin's Boggart > lesson Harry isn't the only one not to face the Boggart. Lupin > purposly lets every pupil but Harry experience the Boggart, but now I > realise he also didn't let Hermione have a go. > > Ron teases her that her most frightening thing ever would be a homework > that only got 9/10, but I wonder if JKR will return to the fact that > Hermione didn't face the Boggart in a later book. Maybe Lupin knows > something about Hermione's past that hasn't been reveiled in the books. > After all, we know very little about Hermione's home life. Maybe > Hermione will play a much bigger part, other than Harry's friend, or > maybe she has suffered in some way. > > What do you think? This is discussed in Unofficial Guide to HP... in PoA, Lupin gives the students a final examination which is set up like an obstacle course. The students do face a boggart... in fact, this is the part of the course where Hermione messed up. Ron's "teasing" turned out to be accurate (as it usually does): Hermione's boggart was Professor McGonagall telling her that she "failed everything" (U.S. version, page 319). It was also speculated in the Guide that the reason Lupin did not allow Hermione to face the boggart was because he knew of her time travelling and did not want her greatest fear to expose that she had the Time-Turner. But, I also like the idea that Lupin knows more about Hermione and her past. We know a lot about the Weasleys because they are in the wizarding community. But I wonder about the Grangers. How would you feel/what would you think if your child were best friends with "the boy who lived"? Do they even know what's going on in the wizarding community? Smilingator From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 16 17:34:00 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:34:00 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--Replies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130814 > Gerry > > Usually I stay out of this debate because I think -though interesting to read- the theory of ESE!Lupin is completele and utter nonsense and can only be upheld by twisting canon and strange logic (sorry Pippin), but this bit I made my fingers itch. > Pippin: Canon-twisting? Strange logic? Jo is way ahead of us. She's the one who wrote the twisty "c-can't t-tell you how p-pleased I am to meet you" and perpetrated Dobby's logic-bending excuse for saying that the CoS plot had nothing to do with He Who Must Not Be Named. When fathoming the mysteries of the Potterverse, twists and strange logic are your bestest friends. Gerry: > Why would LV use as codename for his spy the very name Peter used for himself as part of the Marauders? Pippin: That's equally a problem if Peter is the only one using the name; but LV calls Peter 'Wormtail' all through GoF. Presumably that was the name used by the prisoners Sirius overheard in Azkaban. Otherwise the Ministry would have known that Peter Pettigrew had been involved. It could have been an in-joke or a taunt, but I can't say which without knowing who else knew about the Marauder nicknames. Gerry: > "The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. > His servant ha been chained these twelve years. Tonight, before > midnight, the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his > master. The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than ever before. (PoA, p.238 Bloomsbury hardcover > edition)." > > And we know from GoF that Peter indeed rejoins LV, and is very, very > usefull to him. Pippin: It's very, very, *very* significant, in light of that prophecy, that we have no idea at all what Lupin was doing between Moody's photograph and September 1, 1993. Twelve years, in fact. We also know that he broke free of the chain binding him to Wormtail and escaped before midnight in PoA. I'll be dealing with this in more detail in later posts, but don't you think it's odd that LV would trust Peter, whom he seems to regard as extremely unreliable, to immerse him, wandless, in a cauldron, where, as Harry notes, he could have easily drowned? Tough luck if LV didn't have any gillyweed handy. Gerry: Also with Sirius in Azkaban, why would Peter have > stayed a rat for all these years? Because of Lupin somewhere free? > This would mean Peter is such a good friend and he fears Lupin so much he rather has his friend Sirius rot in Azkaban than tell somebody (for example DD) the truth... Pippin: If I am right, then Peter had no way of knowing that Sirius was innocent -- for all he knew Sirius and Lupin had both turned. And Peter was still an illegal animagus and the betrayer of James and Lily's secret, under duress or no. I think he believes, as Sirius told him, that he should have died rather than betray them. Though he pleads for mercy, he does not expect it...he is as dumfounded as Sirius and Lupin when Harry saves him. He also doesn't know which of the Death Eaters who've gone free think he might really be responsible for the defeat of their master. > Gerry, who really wonders what Pippin will do as in the rest of the > books there will be no ESE!Lupin. Pippin: Go back to working crosswords, I guess But ESE!Lupin, which was developed prior to OOP, not only held up beautifully through that book but was enhanced with a much more plausible motive than the one I had guessed, a clue that turned up as predicted (you can see the Quidditchpitch from the DADA office) and a still more horrendous crime (the murderof Sirius.) I'm far more confident now than I was pre-OOP. Pippin From jennefer_pizza at muzak.com Thu Jun 16 14:03:34 2005 From: jennefer_pizza at muzak.com (jenzajlp) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:03:34 -0000 Subject: Harry had to fail - Harry's Tragic Flaws In-Reply-To: <20050615232120.21068.qmail@web50504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130815 Julie Rice References: <001801c56f56$cd555780$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130816 On 6/12/05, Sherry Gomes wrote: [snip] > more than the obvious! Knowing what we do of the closeness between James > and Sirius, I can't imagine him choosing anyone else to be Harry's legal > guardian. That's one reason I've always been confused about why Sirius let > Hagrid take baby Harry so easily. It's one of the things I hope will be > explained someday in canon. Suppose that Sirius and Hagrid both arrived at the Potters' destroyed house post-curse and rescued Harry from the wreckage. Sirius knew immediately that Pettigrew, their friend, had betrayed them. Given Sirius' calm, calculating personality--er, not--I think he probably went after Peter as soon as Harry was safe, leading to the exact opposite of what everyone for the next 13 years thought the situation had been: "Sirius, that poor silly boy, he tried to stop Pettigrew by himself, if you can believe." A reminder, too, that even "weak" wizards can cause a hellacious mess when fully trained. He may well have planned to take guardianship of Harry as soon as Pettigrew was "settled," but was delayed by being immediately framed and imprisoned... What I wonder is, why was Sirius not confident enough to be the Potters' secret-keeper himself? I don't imagine that it could have been tortured out of him, but maybe the secret is revealed if the keeper is killed. -John From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 14:28:04 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:28:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050616142804.2068.qmail@web26308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130817 Karen Barker wrote: Why then does DD immediately tell Harry the contents of the prophecy? Now LV can get it from Harry's mind. Hells: I believe that Dumbledore showed Harry an edited version of the prophesy and that he will reveal the rest later. The information in the prophecy was rather pointless in my mind, we didn't really learn anything that we hadn't already guessed. No part of it should have been described as "a weapon of sorts". From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 14:51:07 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge, Harry's Expulsion, and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050616145107.41335.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130818 JLV WROTE: (...edited...) Fudge thought that the terms of the prophecy had *already* been fulfilled when Harry was one year old. As far as Fudge was concerned, Voldemort was dead and could not return, *ever*. This smacks of a lack of thought about all the stuff about marking as equal etc, but as prophecies are generally vague, it is not unforgivable. Why think that a 'dead' man has come back to life? Juli again: I don't think so, Fudge (like most of the wizards, IMO), believe that LV is gone, but not death, he's heard the rumors, he used to listen to DD, he can't be that stupid (or can he?). I think Fudge doesn't want to believe, but deep down I think he *knows* LV is back, it's just easier to ignore DD and Harry than to actually face the fact that LV is back with all his strengh, Sirius says something like this in GoF (when he meets HRH at Hogsmade) and Arthur Weasley also explains at the Quidditch world cup what it would mean to have LV back. IMO of course Juli __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 12:28:26 2005 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:28:26 -0000 Subject: Occlumency and Spies (Re: Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison...) In-Reply-To: <726B49A9C4770949BC4A979E87ACF00B012C56BE@exchange2000.domain1.courtswv.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130819 Betsy Hp: > > Well, you brought up A.S. Byatt and she complained that JKR's > > magic wasn't numinous enough, that it was too mundane. > > [Wilson, Bruce]: > I think that Byatt's objection to JKR is motivated by jealousy. Byatt's novels are regarded as 'better literature' by the > cognoscetti, but JKR us much more successful--and wealthy. (Richer > than the Queen, last I heard.) But is it art? If one of the marks of literature is the ability of the writer to use language in original and unexpected ways, exploiting our expectations to surprise and stimulate and affording us fresh insights into the subject matter, then I'd say that this message board is proof enough that JKR has achieved that. Let's not forget, one person's derivation is another's intertextual referencing ;) Hettiebe From cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 15:26:30 2005 From: cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com (cleverestwitchofherage) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:26:30 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Percy's Prospects (was Re: Ending the series) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130820 > Geoff: > Please excuse a rush of pedantry to the head, but you mean Susan Bones. > Her mother is Amelia Susan Bones. > > (OOTP "The Hearing" p.127 UK edition) Cleverwitch: Excuse me, Geoff, but isn't Amelia Bones Susan's "Auntie" rather than her mother? (She tells this to Harry et al in the Hogshead. --Peace, Cleverwitch From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 16 16:41:07 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:41:07 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130821 1.Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Goddric Gryffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? She has an older half brother by the name of Tom Riddle. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Dumbledore. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Umbrage. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 4; Charms, Potions, Transfiguration, and in Defense Against The Dark Arts Harry will get the highest score ever recorded, beating the old record set by young Tom Riddle. Other Predictions : 1)Harry's stay with the Dursleys will be cut short because he is invited to the wedding between Hagrid and Madame Maxime. 2)The new DADA teacher, Dumbledore, teaches at such a high level that even Hermione is struggling, only Harry seems to understand it immediately, so he tutors the others in DA meetings. 3)Percy will pretend to make up with his family but it's all a sham, he will later help the Death Eaters lead Harry and Dumbledore into a trap causing Dumbledore's death and nearly killing Harry too. Percy gets away. 4)Harry will perform an unforgivable curse again. Eggplant From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 17:05:12 2005 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:05:12 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury Screensaver Spoiler Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130822 S P O I L E R * W A R N I N G Calling all herbologists. What do you think the plant in the background of the intertwined snakes in the screensaver might be. It looks familiar to me and I think it might be some sort of water plant but I'm no horticulturalist. JKR seems to like playing with the folkloric resonances of various plants and trees so I thought it might be significant. Apologies if anyone has asked this already, I did as many searches as I could think of and didn't come up with anything. Hettiebe From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 16 17:09:57 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:09:57 +0100 Subject: Fudge, the prophecy and Harry's expulsion Message-ID: <004301c57296$3a7d2cb0$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 130823 I have been reading with great interest the post regarding Fudge, the prophecy and Harry's expulsion. In the first book, Hagrid, whilst answering the many questions Harry was asking, told him of Fudge's election as Minister. Unfortunately, I will need to rely on memory from the audiobooks, as I can't see, but from what I gather, Hagrid seemed to infer that Fudge wasn't any good as Minister and was continually asking Dumbledore's advice as to what to do. The way I see it, as far as Fudge was concerned, Harry had broken the law and, as he looked on LV's return as a story told by some deluded old fogey, he chose to look at the dementors' attack in the same light. To me, Fudge seems to be a man who acts before he thinks and we must also remember that he was in ignorance that Umbridge was unworthy of his trust. If he had only made inquiries as to whether two dementors had deserted their posts on the evening of 2nd August, he could then have got the ministry together, possibly with someone present who was able to sense whether or not everyone was telling the truth. Derek From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Thu Jun 16 17:50:58 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:50:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is Ron allowed 2 friends at the World Cup? Message-ID: <1ff.3c98218.2fe31602@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130824 That's a good question, since the story is from Harry's pov it may be that Lee Jordan may have been there, and Harry never saw them. I think it's because of 2 reasons, one because Harry is Harry, the Weasely's love having him around and knowing he probably wouldn't get to go, and two because Hermione is muggle born, and both wouldn't have had the opportunity to get tickets as their parents ie guardians wouldn't be able to get tickets to go. Whereas many of the Weasley's friends are mostly not of muggle backgrounds and their parents would understand why it would be important to go. Coming out of lurkdom danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 17:52:08 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore the Strategist / Dumbledore Knows... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050616175208.75145.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130825 > Chris: Do we really know he was caught by surprise? DD seems in > full control from the moment Umbridge escorts Harry into his > office. Remember, when Fudge asks Harry if he knew why he was > there, Harry is about to defiantly scream "Yes!" but one look at DD > convinces him not > to. It's almost as if DD knows what is coming and is steering Harry > through his answers.... > Look at the situation with Marietta Edgecombe. Umbridge had > notified Fudge after Edgecombe came to her after dinner that > evening. However, Fudge had no idea who the witness was before she > was introduced. But DD is reserved as hell when she is introduced, > almost as if he knew this was coming. He even gives Shacklebolt > signals that > cause Shacklebolt to modify Edgecombe's memory, already knowing > that Marietta was about to spill the beans. > Was there ever really any tension present here? DD steers the > entire conversation away from Harry, puts it on himself, and then > stuns everybody in the room with no more trouble than popping a > lemon drop into his mouth. > > I understand that people like DD, and I am one of those > people. BUt there are just too many circumstances where DD knows > what is going on before everyone else does. Actually I think you have the answer right in your own words. Dumbledore is "reserved as hell" - he gives nothing away, including the fact that he's feeling out a situation even as he seems to be above it all. When he signals Harry to say "no" to Umbridge's question, he's really trying to find out just what Umbridge really knows. All she's done so far is give Harry the chance to tell them everything. If Harry shuts up, then Umbridge and Fudge will have the onus on them of making a case against Harry. Dumbledore basically makes sure that Harry doesn't incriminate himself before he hears what the charges are. This isn't a matter of knowing in advance; it's a matter of tactics that have probably served Dumbledore well over the decades. Ditto with Marrietta. Kingsley is a member of the Order; do he and DUmbledore really have to know what she might say to decide that a mute Marietta will cause Umbridge's case to crumble to dust? What Umbridge needs is someone to admit something about the DA. If everyone goes mum, she's helpless, as she shows when she's driven to manhandle Marietta in her fury. Dumbledore doesn't know in advance what's going to happen, he's just better equipped to wing it than other people. Magda __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 16 18:04:59 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Preordered copy of book 6 In-Reply-To: <20050616170622.84668.qmail@web54601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050616180459.32126.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130826 > > Chancie's response to a poster about receiving the book early: > > Well, I hate to be rude, but your co-worker is a big > fat liar! NO ONE is allowed to release the book prior to July 16 at > 12:01am. Even if the stores get the book early, they would be at risk > of not being allowed to carry the books at all anymore, and NO store is > going to pass that up. Chancie, if you truly hate to be rude then perhaps you should choose phrases like "your co-worker is mistaken" or "your co-worker doesn't appear to know what he/she is taking about." Using phrases like "big fat liar" reeks of one's enjoyment of bad manners. Perhaps the co-worker is pulling the posters leg. Using such phrasing sours conversation and turns away those who treasure quality discussion and debate. I agree that that no store would break the release date agreement. Reassuring the poster of this was, I am sure, your goal. I also understand that we all get a tad inpatient with those people--like the co-worker--who spread untruths and rumors--especially so close to the release date with all of us on pins with anticipation. theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Jun 16 18:14:09 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:14:09 -0000 Subject: Harry had to fail - Harry's Tragic Flaws In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenzajlp" wrote: >> > Jen replies: > I completely agree with this opionion and wanted to expand on it a > little. I think that Harry will also continue to fail through HBP, > wherein he will eventually learn the lessons he needs to defeat > Voldemort in Book 7. OotP was the first book that really showed us > all of Harry's flaws, which I think is why so many people > finished > that book disliking him. I believe that like every tragic hero, > these flaws will lead to his downfall (which may not be death). Well, that depends on your definition of tragedy, doesn't it? This is the kind of standard Aristotelian definition, which is really to say it mirrors the dramatic theories and practices of Sophocles. But many other great tragic authors, even the other great Greek tragic authors, had very different ideas about what constituted a tragedy. In Aeschylus the tragedy lies in the broken nature of the world, in Euripides in the damage wrought on society and individuals when unchecked passions burst forth. In Lyric Tragedy you often had a purely good individual caught in disastrous circumstances. All of which is to say that if JKR wants to play up "tragic" elements of her plot, she has many models at hand that don't depend on Harry's "flaws" -- most of which, in my own opinion, are not flaws at all but simply realistic character traits that happened not to be very advantageous in the particular situations chronicled in OOTP. Actually, I rather doubt that JKR intends to turn the saga into a pure tragedy, much less a classic tragedy. She doesn't strike me as that kind of author. Which is not to say there won't continue to be tragic elements. But I doubt we will have a mass killing as in "Hamlet" or an attack of Furies as in the "Orestia" -- and I seriously doubt that Harry will symbolically castrate himself in grief over his sins, as Oedipus does by blinding himself in "Oedipus Tyrannus. Lupinlore From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 16 18:59:50 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:59:50 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--Replies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130828 Neri: Having a "second-in-command" strikes me as extremely out- of-character for Voldy. Such a title implies that if something happens to the first-in-command, the second-in- command takes his place, an unthinkable idea for Voldy. The whole organization exists for him alone. In the graveyard scene he stood in the center, all the DEs stood around him in a circle, and there wasn't any special room reserved for a "second-in-command". The most Voldy would allow is someone like Malfoy being the commander of specific operations, but Malfoy too stands in the circle with all the other DEs. > Pippin: > Why "just one year"? Sirius was twenty-two when he was sent to Azkaban, so Lupin had been out of school four or five years already. Neri: I wrote one year because according to Sirius in the Shack Wormtail was spying for one year before GH. And while Sirius doesn't say how he came up with this time period, it seems likely that he had heard it too from the DEs in Azkaban, or he would have been less specific. Pippin: We know that Dumbledore suspected a spy before GH. I thought Sirius was dating from the first of the string of Order members who got picked off one by one. You make a good point about the second-in-command. Let's see, we have an ambitious, dedicated, naive young fellow who is rapidly and mysteriously promoted over the heads of the obviously more qualifed, by a leader who really isn't into sharing power...hmmm, sounds familiar, doesn't it? Couldn't be that Voldemort was trying to recruit a spy, could it? This is Voldemort we're talking about; you know he'd prommise anything to anybody if he thought it would help him get the One destined to destroy him. Of course Lupin wouldn't know that's why he had been recruited any more than Percy did. Nor, depending on what Lupin knew about the prophecy, would he know that Voldemort's target was Harry all along. Neri: Voldy's words to Wormtail in the graveyard also imply that Wormtail is a returning member. "You returned to me, not out of loyalty, but out of fear of your old friends (GoF, Ch. 33, p. 649 US)". Why would Voldy expect any loyalty from an enemy who was caught and bullied to give information only a week before GH? A page later Voldy adds, after issuing Wormtail his new silver hand: "may your loyalty never waver again". Then Wormtail "takes his place in the circle", a place apparently reserved for him by the other DEs. This suggests he was already a DE before GH, a rather fast promotion if he did it in a single week. > Pippin: > A very neat solution is to suppose that Voldemort used the codename "Wormtail" for his spy all along, so that the DE's never knew that Peter and Lupin were two different people. Neri: This neat solution doesn't fit very well with the sequence of events. You suggest Voldemort gave ESE!Lupin the codename "Wormtail" long before GH. This was in order to confuse the Order, I assume? Then why did Sirius suspect Lupin but *not* Wormtail? Then a year or so after that the Potters decided to protect themselves with a Fidelius, and whom did they choose, very unexpectedly, to be their Secret Keeper? Wormtail. Was this an amazing coincidence, or is Voldy a seer? Pippin: If Dumbledore knows there's a spy in the Order, he's not likely to share information like Death Eater codenames that can only have come from his spies in the DE's. Sirius was likely ignorant of the spy's codename until he went to Azkaban. We have to await developments as to when Snape and Dumbledore first learned of the Marauder nicknames, though. I suspect that Lupin/Wormtail started passing info to the werewolves years before he was recruited to the DE's. I'm speculating here but a Jonathan Pollard scenario seems plausible: the Order was spying on the Ministry, and ESE!Lupin saw nothing very wrong with helping the werewolves by passing on some third party info to his new friends. He could have picked the Wormtail alias as casually as Harry decided to be "Neville Longbottom" on the Knight Bus. If Lupin AKA Wormtail and Peter AKA Wormtail are the same person as far as the other DE's are concerned, then Peter can neatly step into Lupin's place in the circle, while Lupin himself stays discretely hidden, ready to pick off poor Peter with a well-placed AK if he shows signs of deviating from the script, f'rinstance like drowning LV in the cauldron. In that case, Sirius's choice of Wormtail to be the real secret keeper was a stroke of luck for Lupin, but the plot to frame Sirius would have worked just as well if Sirius had remained the Secret-Keeper. Lupin would have found some way to obtain the secret, given it to Voldie, then made it look like Sirius himself had betrayed the Potters. The subterfuge was necessary since if the plot to dispose of the Potters had succeeded, there were still the Longbottoms to deal with. You will see that this scenario gives Lupin a very excellent reason to want to keep Harry alive. By now he must fear that once Harry is dead, his master will have no further use for him... Pippin From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Thu Jun 16 19:09:47 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:09:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Preordered copy of book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130829 It's not as if I really believed him because I know about the security, but I was just wondering if anyone else had heard of anything or if someone they knew were saying the same thing. danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pbarhug at earthlink.net Thu Jun 16 19:15:23 2005 From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:15:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SPOILER - (Images in Bloomsbury Screen Saver!) References: Message-ID: <005301c572a7$bf5b3e20$0201000a@DJZCB631> No: HPFGUIDX 130830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > Laura said...... > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > * > W > A > R > N > I > N > G > * > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > * > W > A > R > N > I > N > G > From Donna: > I must have the wrong screensaver. Mine shows the "stone", "snake door", > castle on island", "cup", "phoenix", and "book". What have I missed? Could > someone help this poor old woman? You got the "adult" version of the screensaver. I like that one better, myself. You need the "kids" version to see all the spoily stuff. TK -- TigerPatronus Well, maybe you can help this befuddled old woman as well. Can someone repost the link to the screen saver? I've searched around the Bloomsbury site, but I still can't find it. drpam who realizes she probably looked right at it but didn't recognize it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 16 21:00:06 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:00:06 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Percy's Prospects (was Re: Ending the series) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130831 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cleverestwitchofherage" wrote: > > Geoff: > > Please excuse a rush of pedantry to the head, but you mean Susan > Bones. > > Her mother is Amelia Susan Bones. > > > > (OOTP "The Hearing" p.127 UK edition) > > Cleverwitch: > Excuse me, Geoff, but isn't Amelia Bones Susan's "Auntie" rather than > her mother? (She tells this to Harry et al in the Hogshead. > --Peace, > Cleverwitch Geoff: Mea culpa. I shall have to iron my hands. Just after I hit the Send buton, I had an awful feeling I'd got it wrong and didn't have time to check or reply. I was however half-right - as befits a half-blood. The girl /is/ Susan Bones. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 16 21:06:05 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:06:05 -0000 Subject: Harry had to fail - Harry's Tragic Flaws In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130832 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenzajlp" wrote: Jen: > My prediction is that in HBP, these flaws will continue to grow until > Harry causes something bad to happen because of them. It is only > then that he will realize the error of his ways and be able to > overcome them to defeat Voldemort. Geoff: Having just returned from two hours leading the church boys' club and dealing with a couple of dozen guys who are short-tempered, arrogant and self-pitying, I realise that we are describing a Harry who is.... ...just a normal teenager. From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 21:16:15 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:16:15 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--Replies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130833 > Pippin: > Go back to working crosswords, I guess But ESE!Lupin, which was > developed prior to OOP, not only held up beautifully through that book > but was enhanced with a much more plausible motive than the one I > had guessed, a clue that turned up as predicted (you can see the > Quidditchpitch from the DADA office) and a still more horrendous > crime (the murderof Sirius.) I'm far more confident now than I was > pre-OOP. Would you mind elaborating as to why being able to see the quiddtch pitch from the DADA classroom is a clue to Lupin being ESE and to what (more plausable) motive it is an indicator? Sorry if I'm being incredibly stupid but I can't work out what you mean although it does sound very interesting. Karen From jenneferp at muzak.com Thu Jun 16 20:30:17 2005 From: jenneferp at muzak.com (jenzajlp) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:30:17 -0000 Subject: Harry had to fail - Harry's Tragic Flaws In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130834 Lupinlore wrote: > Actually, I rather doubt that JKR intends to turn the saga into a > pure tragedy, much less a classic tragedy. She doesn't strike me >as that kind of author. Which is not to say there won't continue to >be tragic elements. But I doubt we will have a mass killing as > in "Hamlet" or an attack of Furies as in the "Orestia" -- and I > seriously doubt that Harry will symbolically castrate himself in > grief over his sins, as Oedipus does by blinding himself in "Oedipus" Jenza replied: Oh dear, I didn't mean to make it sound all that bad. Perhaps comparing it to a traditional tragedy was not the best way to explain myself. I was speaking very generally from my limited knowledge of the definition of a (Greek) tragedy wherein: A hero's tragic flaws lead to his/her downfall. My point with the HP series is that I think Harry's flaws (which do make him more realistic and human, but are still indeed flaws)will lead to a downfall of sorts. I think that these flaws will be the catalyst for Some Undisclosed Bad Thing to happen. However, JKR, not being a 'tragic author' will give Harry a chance to redeem himself - He will be forced to recognize his flaws and work to overcome all or some of them in order to 1. heal and 2. defeat Voldemort. From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Thu Jun 16 18:57:45 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:57:45 -0000 Subject: Why Voldemort Didn't Die (was Bloomsbury Screen Saver! SPOILER!) In-Reply-To: <20050616070838.14188.qmail@web32707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130835 > Gregory Lynn wrote: > > She who made this world tells us the question > we should be asking is not "Why did Harry live?" but "Why didn't > Voldemort die?" Lynn wrote : > > There has been a lot of speculation on a couple of topics. First, how will Harry defeat Voldemort and second, what was the gleam of triumph Harry saw in Dumbledore's eyes when he exammined where Wormtail took Harry's blood. > > Is it possible that both of these things are now related? Is it possible that Harry has already defeated Voldemort and at Volemort's own hand and Dumbledore knows this? Rachael: I've always thought that those two were related, but my theory is that Harry's blood made Voldemort human enough to die. In the first book, I remember Hagrid saying something along the lines of Voldemort not being human enough to die. As well, in GoF, Voldemort says that he was willing to embrace mortal life again (instead of settling for nothing less than immortality). So I think that Dumbledore's triumph is due to the fact that since Voldemort is now mortal, Harry can defeat Voldemort (and Harry is not doomed to be the one that dies). >Lynn: > Or, given that Dumbledore kept his distance early in OOP, could it be that he knew this exchange of blood would strengthen the bond between Harry and Voldemort and it is this bond that will eventually defeat Voldemort? Rachael: I think that you're right that Dumbledore realized that it would strengthen the bond, but I don't think the bond itself will defeat Voldemort (unless Harry sacrifices himself). But I don't think the knowledge that their bond is stronger would have made Dumbledore look triumphant, because he seems to care more about Harry's well- being than getting rid of Voldemort (though I know there's a lot of dispute around Dumbledore's intentions). Rachael From eileennicholson at aol.com Thu Jun 16 22:09:33 2005 From: eileennicholson at aol.com (eileennicholson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:09:33 EDT Subject: Rumpling hair despair Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130836 I just wondered why, if Harry's hair 'simply grew that way, all over the place' (UK Paperback PS p.21) did James need to be 'messing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like you've just got off your broomstick' , as Lily put it (OotP p.714) ? I have been trying to use the Yahoo search engine to find posts where it has been discussed before, my fingers have gone numb and my eyes are glazing over..can anyone help? thanks Eileen Nicholson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 16 22:51:44 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:51:44 -0000 Subject: Lupin is Ever So Evil, Part Two--Replies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130837 Karen: > Would you mind elaborating as to why being able to see the quiddtch > pitch from the DADA classroom is a clue to Lupin being ESE and to what (more plausable) motive it is an indicator? Sorry if I'm being incredibly stupid but I can't work out what you mean although it does sound very interesting. Pippin: Oops, I wasn't clear. The quidditch pitch clue is not related to ESE!Lupin's motive. What the pitch clue confirms is that Lupin, waiting out his transformation in his office, could have spotted Sirius in the stands, and (just possibly) sicced the dementors on him. As to motive, the original ESE!Lupin theory post, 39362, supposed that Lupin might be hiding his nasty real self behind a facade, much like Riddle. I have to say, even I had trouble squaring that image with the Lupin in the books. But OOP shows us just how far the Ministry is willing to go to and how relentless it can be when it deals with undesireables. Harry became a revolutionary after just a month of the Umbridge treatment. Lupin's been up against her and her kind all his life. If anybody could make Voldy look good, it's Dolores. Plus, OOP told us Lupin has a long history of cutting his pals too much slack, forgetting his guilty feelings, hanging around with bullies, and so on. If the Order wasn't prepared to help werewolves against the Ministry, and Voldemort was...well, it's easy to see how Lupin could be tempted, IMO. Pippin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 23:33:39 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:33:39 -0000 Subject: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (1 of 4) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130838 ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> "This is a macho thing, right?" said Faith in exasperated tone. "Well, duh!" said Captain Neri and loaded another box of ship biscuits on a cart. "No, I mean, *really*," said Faith. "Sailing a new and untested theory into the Bay just 30 days before Hurricane Jo returns in full force? We all know what will be the end of that, don't we? You're going to sink like a stone, washed ashore like a wretched dog, and I'll have to make a fool out of you in front of all the Bay denizens. Again. And until then you'll be living for 4 weeks on ship biscuits." "I also brought you some tuna cans," said George, walking out of his bar with another box in his arms. "Thanks," said Neri while George added the box to the already loaded cart and Faith rolled her eyes. "I think this should be enough for the voyage. A current poll suggests the hurricane will last two weeks at most". He started pushing the cart down the eerily deserted street in the direction of the dock. Faith hurried after him. "Look, everybody is already prepared for the hurricane watch," she tried one last time. "No sane soul is out here. They all sit at home, listening to the forecast and making predictions". "But Faith, we have received some new and important information regarding Neville and his parents in the last months, and how can we possibly go and read HBP now without an updated Neville theory?" "I can," muttered Faith. "Easily. Er wait a minute, did you say this is a *Neville* theory? I thought you're taking the VASSAL". They have just reached the dock and were passing a very strange, half-finished ship. She looked as if some mad designer had tried to rebuild her again and again, each time with a different plan in mind, and never finished. On her bow the name, which seemed to have hastily painted over many times, now spelled "Voldy And Snape Share A Link v.2.4.11017c-beta" "Erm the VASSAL," said Captain Neri uneasily. "Well, after your inspection uncovered that first hole I was never completely satisfied with the design. But not to worry - in the meantime I was building a new Neville theory. Well, not really new - the design is mainly a refinement and adaptation of several Neville theories, some of which were developed even before OotP, such as those collected and presented in the classic three-post Memory-Charm Symposium by Elkins: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38812 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38813 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38848 Down the dock just passed the VASSAL was tethered a small but neat sailing yacht, the name on her bow spelling E.L.K.I.N.S. A.V.E.N.G.E.D. "My first TBAY acronym; I'm ridiculously proud of it," confided Neri and started moving supply boxes from the cart to the little ship. Faith wasn't paying attention. "The Memory Charm Symposium, oh yes, yes, that was quite a memorable event," she said reminiscently. "In fact, I still have some of the scars. You see, I was sitting in the third row when Elkins started smashing umm , now wait just one moment!" Faith halted and eyed the little ship in dawning horror. "Surely you're not suggesting no, you can't be I mean, even you aren't that Captain, please, *please* tell me that you're not planning to sail into the hurricane in a in a *Memory Charm* theory!" The Captain fidgeted. "You must have lost it completely!" exploded Faith. "Why am I wasting my time trying to teach you?! Didn't I tell you a hundred times that Memory Charm theories were some of the most unsafe, subversive and far-fetched vessels to *ever* litter the bottom of the bay? And they aren't even *fashionable* anymore! In OotP there were very few allusions to Neville's memory, if at all, and lots of suggestions that he just lacks self-confidence." "Look, I know all that, but I've made some changes in the specs and increased the safety margins," explained Captain Neri and loaded another box on the tiny sailing ship. "The Memory Charm is now a completely modular part of the design, practically detachable. I can even afford to lose it entirely in the storm and the theory would still reserve enough buoyancy to float with no problems. You'll see, it will work like a cha I mean, it will be all right". Faith caught her head in her hands and was reduced to mumbling incoherently while the Captain finished loading the supply and secure it. "So are you coming aboard?" he asked. There was a short silence. "What?" said Faith finally in a very controlled tone. "Well, you can't inspect it from the dock", said Neri reasonably. "I'm not setting a foot on that thing", said Faith. "We won't even be moving from the dock. Cm'on, you promised you'll inspect my new ship whenever it's ready" "I have never promised such a thing". "I have it in writing", said Neri. He pulled the ship log from the helm bay and leafed quickly through it. "In message #116373, right in the end, you said " "OK, stop, stop, I said OK " Faith shut her eyes for a moment. Hard. Then opened them, took a deep breath, released it, took a deeper breath, crossed the boarding plank and gingerly set a 4?-inch heel on the deck of the ELKINS AVENGED. "I'm on board of a Memory Charm theory", she mumbled to herself in disbelief, gripping the rail. "First a Snape theory, and now this. Oh, the things I do for TBAY. I definitely, *definitely* deserve a raise. Increased hazard compensation, too." "See, it's not that bad," said Captain Neri encouragingly. "Just one more step now and another one here is your chair here is your life belt now, do we have everything we need for the inspection? Oh, I know", he produced an old and battered Pensieve and set it between their chairs. "Now we're ready". (to be continued) ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 23:38:51 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:38:51 -0000 Subject: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (2 of 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130839 ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> (continued from post #130838) Captain Neri pulled out his wand and tapped the Pensieve. The small, slowly revolving figure of a woman floated out of it. The woman was coated with grime and covered with scratches. Her clothing was tattered and her hair matted. Her eyes rolled wildly in their sockets. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45290 > "Repent!" she screamed. "The day of reckoning is at hand! Oh, > can't you smell it on the air? Can't you hear it in the wind?" > "Oh, it is later than you think! It is later than you think!" > "It's *coming!* > The Author! She is coming back to claim what is Hers! She will > divide the Righteous from the Unrighteous, and the Faith-ful from the > Subversive! She will--" "Oops, sorry, wrong post." Captain Neri hastily eliminated the image with a wave of his wand. "Must've forgotten to rewind". He frantically stirred the content of the Pensieve fifteen or twenty revolutions counterclockwise and tapped it again. The slowly revolving woman reappeared, but she was much tidier now, and her voice was calm and rational: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38812 > As I've said > before, I'm not totally sold on the whole Memory Charm thing myself. > I think, though, that if there is a red herring swimming around in > this aquarium, then it is far more likely to be darting around > somewhere in the vicinity of the notion that Neville witnessed his > parents' torture at *all.* I am far more willing to abandon MC'd > Neville altogether than to buy into the notion that Neville both > witnessed something so unspeakably horrible as a child *and* that he > can remember it clearly. This is because, to my mind, there is far > too much evidence in the text to suggest that Neville is *not,* in > fact, ordinarily very much troubled by traumatic remembrance. Neri removed the image with his wand. "Yes, I absolutely agree with Elkins here," he said. "I think baby Neville had never witnessed his parents' torture". "Well, what a discovery," scoffed Faith. "*I* have said it since the day I was born". "Yes, but you see," said Neri apologetically, "it is necessary to start with the torture. Because for years we have all believed that Neville's story parallels Harry's story". He raised his eyebrows at Faith. "Am I right to assume that you have believed it yourself?" "Er yes", admitted Faith. "Of course Neville's story parallels Harry's story. The parallels cannot be denied. Both lost both of their parents when they were very young to Unforgivable curses. Both grew up with relatives that, erm did not treat them very well. Both sorted to Gryffindor, both harassed by Snape. Harry even borrowed Neville's name once. And unlike some theories I could name, this parallelism proved true in OotP - we have learned that both pairs of parents were in the Order, both escaped Voldemort three times, both children were born within a day of each other, and both were implicated by the prophecy. If this isn't a literary parallelism, I don't know what a literary parallelism is." "Indeed," said Neri. "But several weeks ago, JKR herself told us that this parallelism only goes *this* far. Neville is a might-have-been, but he's not prophecy boy and not a replacement: ********************************************************************* http://www.wizardnews.com/story.200505163.html So where does this leave Neville, the boy who was so nearly King? Well, it does not give him either hidden powers or a mysterious destiny. He remains a 'normal' wizarding boy, albeit one with a past, in its way, as tragic as Harry's. Some of you, who have been convinced that the prophecy marked Neville, in some mystical fashion, for a fate intertwined with Harry's, may find this answer rather dull. ********************************************************************* "I admit that I indeed find this break of the parallelism rather dull," said Neri. "It doesn't fit well with the trend JKR had set. But this is what Herself ruled. Maybe in the end she will somehow rescue this parallelism, but for now, she has told us that Neville is on his own". "And several months ago," added Neri, "JKR also told us that the Lestranges were *not* sent after Neville, but after his parents, and *not* because of the prophecy. This too breaks the parallelism between the two families. There is now no special reason to assume that the Longbottoms were attacked at their home, as the Potters were, and that Neville was present, as Harry was. There is no canon for that at all, AFAIK not even a suggestion or an allusion, except for the now-broken parallelism. It is now much more reasonable to assume that the Longbottoms were attacked while doing their job as aurors. I submit that Neville did not witness the torture of his parents because he wasn't even there." "Some might feel that your scenario lacks Bang," commented Faith, "although *I'm* not complaining, naturally. But haven't you mentioned a Memory Charm earlier? Why would anybody bother using a Memory Charm on Neville if he didn't witness the torture, never suffered a trauma, never heard some terrible secret, and wasn't even at the scene of the crime? I submit the whole Memory Charm thing is a bogus." "Maybe, and maybe not", Neri smiled mysteriously. "I'll return to the Memory Charm later. But first, as you point out so graciously, this scenario seems to lack Bang. So lets raise the Bang quotient a bit. In fact, lets turn it all the way up to max. Deep inside the Longbottoms' tortured minds must be hidden some big secret, and I mean BIG. It's not the prophecy. The prophecy wasn't such a big Bang even when it was revealed in the end of OotP, but solving the Longbottoms' mystery in Book 6 or 7 only to find the prophecy *again*, that would definitely be a Dud. Besides, JKR already told us that the Lestranges didn't know about the prophecy." Neri considered again. "No," he said resolutely. "It can't be the prophecy or anything similar. There are only two books left, and this late in the game JKR doesn't have much time for goose chases. And she has already promised us `some answers'." "So what would such a BIG secret be?" asked Faith, unable to hide her curiosity. "Please don't tell me that *both* Lupin and McGonagall are Ever So Evil?" "Actually, the theory would work regardless of *what* the secret is," said Neri. "It only requires that the secret exists, and that it's BIG. But personally I don't think it's ESE!this or ESE!that. I think it's a way to vanquish Voldemort. A way that even Dumbledore doesn't know about. Now *that* would be big enough for me." "And why," asked Faith skeptically, "would Frank and Alice know a way to vanquish Voldemort that even Dumbledore doesn't know? And if they did know it, why didn't they tell him?" "Here we come to the next part of the theory," said Neri. "I find it quite suspicious that the Longbottoms are canonically connected with the Ministry in three different ways: 1. They were both aurors, and thus their direct boss was Crouch Sr., the ambitious and ruthless Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. 2. One of their attackers just happened to be one Crouch Jr., the very son of said boss. 3. In the end of GoF, the current Minster Cornelius Fudge was uncharacteristically determined to silence said Crouch Jr. permanently, so he never had the chance to tell us anything about the attack on the Longbottoms. "Very convenient coincidences, don't you think?" Said Neri. "Now add another tip from JKR: Fudge is going to lose his job in Book 6. Why? Denying Voldemort's return for a whole year apparently wasn't enough of a bungle to kick him out of office, so what can he possibly do in Book 6 that would be even worse?" "So here is a theory to explain all the above: After Voldemort was vaporized in Godric Hollow, Crouch Sr. secretly devised a plan to find, capture and annihilate him for good. This plan was highly controversial, and involved some Dark and questionable means, but that's OK if it's for a good cause, isn't it? We probably don't have enough information to deduce what exactly was this plan, but my guess is that it involved the veil in the DoM. This would explain why the "death room" is shaped like an amphitheater with spectator seats: Crouch planed a public trial for Vapor!mort in front of the Wizengamut and as many wizards as possible, then an execution by pushing Vapor!mort through the veil. After such a public display of power Crouch would not only be made Minister, but surely be considered the greatest wizard in the world. Even greatest than one Albus Dumbledore who, after all, had only managed to defeat the comparably insignificant Grindelwald." "Ah yes, that does sound like our old Barty Crouch," allowed Faith. "Crouch had all the experts, resources and knowledge kept in the DoM under his command," continued Neri. "And he could investigate the captured DEs to learn about the steps that Voldemort took to make himself deathproof (we know that the DEs knew about these steps, and Karkaroff for example would probably tell Crouch anything to get out of Azkaban). Fudge, as a Junior Minister in the Department of Magical Catastrophes, apparently knew about the plan, although he probably wasn't given an important task (Crouch was over-ambitious, not stupid). The Longbottoms as aurors were assigned the mission of finding Vapor!mort and bringing him to justice. We can assume that they had a good plan how to achieve this too, although I don't have a clue what it was. Why didn't they tell Dumbledore? Perhaps because Crouch swore them to secrecy, or maybe he sealed the whole plan under a Fidelius and made himself the Secret Keeper." "So where did the plan went wrong? Crouch Sr. himself, out of carelessness, or more likely out of an urge to brag, let slipped something about it to his son. Young Barty, unknowingly to his father already a junior DE, realized that the Longbottoms were the key to locating Vapor!mort, and immediately recruited the Lestranges to attack them. A Fidelius Charm on the plan would explain why Crouch Sr. was so certain in the Pensieve trial that his son was guilty - he knew that as the Secret Keeper, only he himself was able to give the plan away, and he knew he had gave it away only to his son." "The Lestranges and Young Barty were captured only after they managed to torture the Longbottoms, but the Longbottoms didn't give away anything. As an aside: I believe that Moody lost his leg and eye while battling the Lestranges, because in the Pensieve trials in GoF, Moody was present in the preceding trials with both his eyes intact, but in the Lestranges' trial he wasn't there. He was probably still at St. Mungo's at the time. However, I believe Moody was just doing his job protecting fellow aurors. He had never known about the plan. Crouch Sr. wouldn't tell him because he was openly Dumbledore's close friend, sitting beside him in all these trials. But it's quite possible that Crouch didn't know about the Longbottoms being Order members. They could have been double agents similar to Shacklebolt and Tonks in the present Order. So Crouch drafted the Longbottoms instead of Moody for his plan. Them being younger and less paranoid, he could perhaps convince them that his plan was better than Dumbledore's `do nothing' strategy." "Naturally, after Crouch's colossal failure, he was shunted to a side department and Fudge, who managed to avoid responsibility, was appointed Minister instead. The whole story was hushed and buried *very* deep. So deep, in fact, that when it turned out in the end of GoF that Crouch Jr. was alive and talking, Fudge panicked and summoned a dementor to silence him." "Hmmm", said Faith. "All this sounds horribly familiar somehow". "Yes," said Neri. "It's loosely based on the theory that Elkins, in the third part of the Memory Charm Symposium, termed `Cover-up In The Ministry'. The difference is that in the original scenario the Ministry was covering up that the DEs were actually framed (the `Round Up the Usual Suspects' sub-theory), or that the torture was actually done by corrupted aurors (the "Bad Aurors" sub-theory). Elkins, however, was quick to point out the problem with these scenarios." Captain Neri summoned the Elkins image out of the Pensieve again: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38848 > The problem that I can see with this, though, is that it leaves the > Bang potential just a little bit Duddy. If there were no DE > conspiracy, then what could the great shocker revelation when Neville > or his parents are finally freed from their memory charms be? That > the Ministry is corrupt? That some Aurors (whom we don't know and > don't care about) are Evil, Evil, Evil? "I agree," nodded Neri and eliminated the Elkins image with a wand wave. "This would be insufficient Bang, even if it turns out that the evil aurors are Moody or Shacklebolt. My upgraded theory therefore solves this problem by assuming that the secret is the way to eliminate Voldemort." "Still sounds far-fetched to me," remarked Faith. "But there's another difference between your theory and the old `Cover-up In The Ministry' scenarios. They assume that Neville was zapped by a Memory Charm because he was in the house with his parents during the attack, but you hypothesize that the attack wasn't in the house at all and Neville wasn't present. So again, why would he end up with a Memory Charm?" "Well," said Neri, "I guess it's time for the Memory Charm part." (to be continued) ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 00:19:39 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:19:39 -0000 Subject: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (3 of 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130840 ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> (continued from post #130839) "Even before OotP, before we have encountered the Longbottoms in the same ward with Memory Charmed Lockhart," said Captain Neri, "Debbie had a very intriguing idea: the Longbottoms are *not* insane and traumatized for years because of the torture. No, in fact they are both Memory Charmed. Elkins discussed this possibility in the Memory Charm symposium." Neri tapped the Pensieve and the image of Elkins appeared again: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38848 > Mainly, though, what impresses me here is the extremely compelling > canonical defense that Debbie provided for the notion that what > afflicts Neville's parents may not be trauma at all, but a Memory > Charm. Having first brought up all of the usual objections to the > Longbottom subplot -- that the Longbottoms' amnesiac state is simply > not in the least bit believable as a normal human response to > extended abuse, that it seems even more unlikely that *two* people > should have responded in precisely the same idiosyncratic way to > trauma, and so forth -- Debbie then wrote: The small, slowly revolving Elkins-in-the-Pensieve produced her own little Pensieve and tapped it with a wand. From this Pensive rose a second figure, even smaller and revolving twice as fast, of an elf with a feather boa over her shoulders, which said: > > On the other hand, the description of the Longbottom's condition is > > completely consistent with a Memory Charm. For support, I compare > > the description of the Longbottoms (about whom Dumbledore > > says "They are insane. . . . They do not recognize [Neville]") with > > Prof. Lockhart (about whom Ron reports "Hasn't got a clue who he > > is, or where he is, or who we are.") I think the descriptions sound > > very similar. Elkins-in-the-Pensieve eliminated the elf image with her wand, vanished her small Pensieve, and said: > Wow, Debbie! > > Yeah, so do I. I think that you may just have sold me on this idea. > Memory Charm'd Mr. and Mrs. Longbottom really does makes perfect > sense to me, and it also provides for quite the opportunity for > Banginess later on. Just think of all the dirt that Frank Longbottom > might be able to spill, if only he could, well, you know. Stop > drooling for just a little while. Neri eliminated the Elkins figure and said: "I also like Debbie's idea that the Longbottoms are Memory Charmed, and I think it looks even more attractive today, after Lockhart appeared in OotP in the same ward with them. However, note that Lockhart is in better shape, while the Longbottoms apparently can't even talk. This suggests that if the Longbottoms are indeed Memory Charmed, then unlike Lockhart they are repeatedly dosed with fresh anti-memory blasts to prevent any recovery. OTOH Lockhart's state also shows that, while certain recovery from a Memory Charm *is* possible, it's very slow and gradual, and the older and really important memories might not be regained even after years. This means that even if in Book 6 the reason for the Longbottoms' condition will indeed be found to be a Memory Charm, it would still be many years before, ahem, Frank Longbottom can stop drooling long enough to tell us anything of importance. This of course would be unacceptable from plot considerations: we need the Longbottoms to recover immediately, at least enough to tell us the secret they've been keeping." "Therefore I'm going to further improve Debbie's idea by suggesting that the Longbottoms *weren't* blasted with the usual Memory Charm. Instead, Fudge have been sending them, during all these years, bubblegum that was treated with Forgetfulness Potion." "Forgetfulness Potion???" repeated Faith ominously, her hand sneaking into a long cylindrical black package that somehow appeared by her side. "I don't remember such a thing. Where's the canon?" "Right behind you," said Captain Neri. Faith turned around in her chair and noticed, for the first time, the little can(n)on stationed on the deck. On it were engraved the words: ********************************************************************* SS/PS, Ch. 16, p.262 US: They had practical exams as well. Professor Flitwick called them one by one into his class to see if they could make a pineapple tap-dance across a desk. Professor McGonagall watched them turn a mouse into a snuff-box ? points were given for how pretty the snuff-box was, but taken away if it had whiskers. Snape made them all nervous, breathing down their necks while they tried to remember how to make a Forgetfulness Potion. ********************************************************************* "First Year exam material at Hogwarts, sounds to me like Fudge might be able to handle it," said Captain Neri, noticing with relief that the long black package had vanished. "Now I'm going to borrow one of the many ideas suggested by the crew of the SILK GOWNS: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80592 although I think they have blamed it on all the wrong people: Lucius Malfoy or Gran or Uncle Algie or the Healer ? practically everybody around *but* the real villain here. I mean, isn't it *obvious* it's Fudge? The DEs would have no scruples offing the Longbottoms, had they had any reason to, the way they did Bode. But Fudge isn't as evil as the DEs. He's only corrupted and fearing for his job. The Longbottoms were probably indeed traumatized by the torture in the beginning, but after a year or two they had started to come out of it, and Fudge, who by that time had already got used to his cushy new post, panicked about what they might reveal. Better let sleeping dogs lie. Fudge could have easily sent the Forgetfulness Potion treated bubblegum as gifts to the Longbottoms, every holiday or so, directly from the Ministry as an appreciation to aurors that were injured on the line of duty. The Healer probably wouldn't object. She would think that it's nice of the Ministry to show that they still care, and that the chewing could be a good motor exercise for the patients. So the Longbottoms got fresh doses of Forgetfulness Potion all the time." "Interesting," said Faith doubtfully. "I guess Forgetfulness Potion might be able to work at least as well as the usual Memory Charm. But what about Neville's memory problems?" "That was the idea of the SILK GOWNS," said the Captain. "Although they were speculating wildly since they didn't know about the existence of Forgetfulness Potion. You see, Neville apparently visits his parents every holiday, and Gran's words in the close ward scene in OotP indicate that it was not the first time his mother was giving him `presents'. Er that's the next can(n)on." Faith noticed that there was another small can(n)on stationed next to the first. She went there and read: ********************************************************************* OotP, Ch. 23, p.514 US: She did not seem to want to speak, or perhaps she was not able to, but she made timid motions towards Neville, holding something in her outstretched hand. "Again?" said Mrs. Longbottom, sounding slightly weary. "Very well, Alice dear, very well ? Neville, take it, whatever it is." ********************************************************************* "Note that `again'," said Neri. "And Gran's words further hint that Neville keeps these presents in his bedroom." Faith continued to read the words engraved on the second can(n)on: ********************************************************************* OotP, Ch. 23, p.515 US: "Well, we'd better get back," sighed Mrs Longbottom, drawing on long green gloves. "Very nice to have met you all. Neville, put that wrapper in the bin, she must have given you enough of them to paper your bedroom by now." ********************************************************************* "This means that Neville might have been exposed to traces of Forgetfulness Potion for years," said Neri. "Not nearly as much as his parents, since he hadn't actually chewed any of the bubblegum himself, but he had touched the wrappers repeatedly, and so he has suffered similar but much milder memory problems. If in Book 6 someone finally realizes what's going on, Neville and his parents can be given the antidote for Forgetfulness Potion and recover immediately. I'm assuming there *is* an antidote for Forgetfulness Potion, since even Snape won't let ickle firsties mess with something that might cause them long-lasting harm. A quick and dramatic recovery of Frank and Alice would produce a nice Bang *and* be much more practical plotwise, as it will allow them to tell us their secret right away." "That would be convenient," admitted Faith. She raised her eyes and noticed several additional small can(n)ons stationed next to the second. "You have more?" "I have," said Captain Neri. "Logically, Neville wouldn't be the only one who have been touching the wrappers. The Healer of the Janus Thikey ward, Miriam Strout, probably has been giving the bubblegum to the Longbottoms, and so she also should suffer from memory problems. And indeed she admits she forgot to lock the door of the ward, enabling Lockhart to slip out, despite knowing it's dangerous for him. In fact, her words suggest that this was not the first time she had let Lockhart slip out." Faith went to the next can(n)on and read the words engraved on it: ********************************************************************* OotP, Ch. 23, p.510 US: "He's in a closed ward, you know, he must have slipped out while I was bringing in the Christmas presents, the door's usually kept locked not that he's dangerous! But," she lowered her voice to a whisper, "he's a bit of a danger to himself, bless him doesn't know who he is, you see, wanders off and can't remember how to get back" ********************************************************************* "But somebody apparently doesn't remember to lock the door so Lockhart can wonder off," said Neri. "And this is not the only evidence that Hr. Strout suffers from memory problems. The next two can(n)ons are on loan from the SILK GOWNS. Well, I didn't ask for permission, but I doubt they'll notice the absence, having so many can(n)ons on their ship. Anyway, the crew of the SILK GOWNS noticed that Hr. Strout failed to recognize the Devil's Snare that the DEs had sent to Bode:" ********************************************************************* OotP, Ch. 25, p.546 US: St Mungo's Hospital promised a full inquiry last night after Ministry of Magic worker Broderich Bode, 49, was discovered dead in his bed, strangled by a pot plant. Healers called to the scene were unable to revive Mr. Bode, who had been injured in a workplace accident some weeks prior to his death. Healer Miriam Strout, who was in charge of Mr. Bode's ward at the time of the incident, has been suspended on full pay and was unavailable for comment yesterday, but a spokeswizard for the hospital said in a statement: "St Mungo's deeply regrets the death of Mr. Bode, whose health was improving steadily prior to this tragic accident. "We have strict guidelines on the decorations permitted on our wards but it appears that Healer Strout, busy over the Christmas period, overlooked the dangers of the plant on Mr. Bode's bedside table. As his speech and mobility improved, Healer Strout encouraged Mr. Bode to look after the plant himself, unaware that it was not an innocent Flitterbloom, but a cutting of Devil's Snare which, when touched by the convalescent Mr. Bode, throttled him instantly. ********************************************************************* The last can(n)on in the row was a very small one, Faith went to read it: ********************************************************************* OotP, Ch. 29, p. 656 US: "Well, I don't fancy Healing," said Ron on the last evening of the holidays. He was immersed in a leaflet that carried the crossed bone-and-wand emblem of St. Mungo's on its front. "It says here you need at least "E" at NEWT level in Potions, Herbology, Transfiguration, Charms and Defense Against the Dark Arts. I mean blimey don't want much, do they?" ********************************************************************* "Interesting that JKR made sure to tell us in OotP that Healers *must* be very proficient in Herbology," remarked Captain Neri. "Hr. Strout should have recognized Devil's Snare immediately. During the very short time we met her in OotP she had committed two grave errors out of forgetfulness. Note also that she had committed *both* these errors while handling the Christmas presents that the ward patients had received. May I suggest that she was also holding the Longbottoms' presents at the time, which perhaps included a new package of Droobles Best Blowing Gum from the Ministry?" (to be continued) ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> From buffyeton at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 00:43:01 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:43:01 -0000 Subject: Rumpling hair despair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eileennicholson at a... wrote: > I just wondered why, if Harry's hair 'simply grew that way, all over the > place' (UK Paperback PS p.21) did James need to be 'messing up your hair because > you think it looks cool to look like you've just got off your broomstick' , > as Lily put it (OotP p.714) ? > > thanks > > Eileen Nicholson > Degrees of messiness?? I think that Harry's hair was emphasised to show he had natural magic in him. Where as James's hair may be like Harry's, but James would make it even more messy to try and look good. Tamara From buffyeton at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 00:47:38 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:47:38 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: <20050616142804.2068.qmail@web26308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, hells456 wrote: > > Karen Barker wrote: > > Why then does DD immediately tell Harry the contents of the prophecy? Now LV can get it from Harry's mind. > > > > Hells: > > I believe that Dumbledore showed Harry an edited version of the prophesy and that he will reveal the rest later. The information in the prophecy was rather pointless in my mind, we didn't really learn anything that we hadn't already guessed. No part of it should have been described as "a weapon of sorts". I don't think that DD, seeing the error of his past ways, would tell Harry only half the truth. I think he told him the prophecy in full, but is sort of leaving it to Harry to work out its meaning for himself. Or amongst his friends as we know he will tell Ron and Hermione whom each think differently than Harry does, and will put a different spin on it. Tamara From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 00:49:05 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:49:05 -0000 Subject: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (4 of 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130843 ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> (continued from post #130840) Faith went gingerly back to her chair on the deck of the ELKINS AVENGED, gripping the life-belt she was wearing. "OK, so you do have some canon," she said when she settled. "But I still see a BIG problem with this vessel. You claim that Fudge has been slipping the Longbottoms Forgetfulness Potion in the bubblegum, to prevent them from telling about the Ministry's failed plan to vanquish Voldemort, and Neville memory problems are an accidental byproduct, only because he's been touching the wrappers all these years." "Exactly," said Captain Neri. "It might work in the plot level," said Faith, "but in the thematic level it sounds *awful*. This scene of Neville with his mother and the bubblegum wrapper is one of the most moving scenes in OotP, or even in the whole series. Oh, I cry every time I reread it! Alice timidly offers the wrapper in her her tiny shriveled hand and brave Neville saying quietly "thank mom" right there in front of his staring classmates, and then Gran tells him to throw it in the bin but he he hides it in his his pocket, Oh " at this point Faith had to conjure a tissue to wipe her eyes and blow her nose. Noisily. "This scene packs emotional power equal to that of Harry in front of the Mirror of Erised! And now you're suggesting that Alice Longbottom, by somehow recognizing the memory of her son deep in her tortured mind, and giving him the only thing she got left in this world as a Christmas present, was actually causing the damage that was hindering him at Hogwarts all these years??? Fie!!! Shame on you!!!" "OK, OK, keep your hairnet on," said Neri. "This is what I thought too, in the beginning. I only adopted this explanation as the easy default, because it was the most economical plotwise. It would enable Frank and Alice to know the big secret and reveal it quickly, there would be no need for further explanations of Neville's memory problems, and no need to explain how the wrappers are some secret message and how Frank and Alice who can't even talk are somehow able to devise a secret code. But lately I came to think that this theory *would* make some thematic sense too. It was actually Elkins who convinced me, in that part of the symposium where she talks about the possibility that baby Neville had caused the Memory Charm to himself with spontaneous magic. I think this also fits with the new theory." Captain Neri invoked the Elkins-image from the Pensieve one last time: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38812 > Indeed. Really, it's just the sort of thing that *would* happen to > Neville, isn't it? I love the boy dearly, but there's just no > getting around the fact that he's a terrible bungler. He's unlucky. > And he's accident-prone. "Indeed," said Neri. "And it's not only Neville, is it? It's the whole damn family. They are so dysfunctional in their old-fashioned well-meaning pure-bloody pride. Gran and Uncle Algie and the whole clan, the way they discourage Neville, telling his schoolmates in his presence that he's such a disappointment to them, throwing him from windows and piers, making him use his father's wand that is probably not suitable for him, failing to teach him how to fly a broomstick, preventing him from going to the QWC with all his friends, giving him only toads and weird plants and worthless rememberalls as presents. I can definitely see why there are ESE!Gran and ESE!Algie theories around, although I find them too simplistic. And Neville's parents too, the great aurors with this powerful literary parallelism on their side, somehow they just didn't manage to leave him a magical love protection or a great Patronus. Or Quidditch reflexes. Or an invisibility cloak, or their smiling images in a magical mirror, or their echoes coming out of his wand to save his life, or anything like that. No, all poor Neville had inherited were two drooling empty shells that he has to visit every holiday, and a wand that doesn't fit him and breaks at the moment of truth." "Well, I think I can see what you mean," admitted Faith. "there *is* a kind of recurring theme here. And perhaps mirroring of Harry's and Neville's wands." "I think the thematic role of the Longbottoms family might be to represent the pureblood families that are good, yet weak," said Neri. "The purebloods are weakening, this is definitely a theme, but JKR can't let them all be bad like the Malfoys or corrupted like the Crouches. This would break the proper balance. Of course, we do have the Weasleys to represent the good purebloods, but the Weasleys are also strong. They have the right instincts. They have many children, most of which are the some of the best young wizards around. This still leaves the position of the good-yet-weak pureblood family open. And that's the Longbottoms, IMO. The Longbottoms which were members of the Order of the Phoenix, but unlike the Potters were also aurors. They served the corrupted Ministry. They had followed Crouch's orders. They had been authorized to use the Unforgivables, and perhaps they did." "So Alice Longbottom recognizing Neville and showing her love to him, but also hurting him unintentionally while doing so, might actually be a part of the Longbottoms theme," continued Neri. "And Neville taking and keeping the gum wrappers that are bad for him may be thematic too. Neville is brave, in his timid way, but he's a terrible bungler. He's making the right choices, only he's going very badly about it. JKR had been working very hard in the DoM battle scene to render each and every heroic deed of Neville bungled and comical. We now know that she wanted to make it clear that Neville, while being very brave and noble, could have never survived the dangers that Harry survived. So by taking and keeping the "presents" his mother gave him, Neville was making a noble choice, and of course, being Neville, he did it badly. But in the end it would be the *right* choice, because if he hadn't took the wrappers, nobody in Book 6 would have the evidence to deduce what's going on with the Longbottoms. Neville's choice will save both his parents and himself in the end." "Hmmm," said Faith doubtfully. "I'm still not sure I like it, but it might be made to work." "It can work, and it's also waterproof," said Neri, and shot a quick superstitious glance down the ship's engine bay. It was reasonably dry. "The ELKINS AVENGED is waterproof and sea worthy. Admit it." "It's generally waterproof, as far as I can see," agreed Faith, "but then, most of the really far?fetched theories are waterproof, you know. It's because they are built of so few planks, there's almost no place for any cracks to occur. But in the hurricane this hardly matters. A single big wave can sink you whole. This *is* a Memory Charm theory, after all. Or rather a Forgetfulness Potion theory, which isn't any better. As even Elkins had to admit, the HP saga can go on just fine without blaming Neville forgetfulness on some magical device." "Yes, but Neville's memory problems aren't absolutely necessary for my theory," said Neri. "I might be proved wrong on this, but the secret that the Longbottoms are hiding might still be the plan to vanquish Voldy. So I may be able to keep floating even if I lose the Forgetfulness Potion part in the hurricane." "Except that the Ministry plan part is based on almost no canon at all," said Faith. "I realize that," signed Neri. "And yet it sounds reasonable, IMO, and the theory as a whole solves a surprising number of mysteries and questions: 1. What will be the role of the veil in the story? 2. Why are there spectator seats in the DoM death room? 3. Why were the Longbottoms attacked? 4. How did the Longbottoms come to be attacked by their boss' son? 5. Who sent the Lestranges after the Longbottoms? 6. Why was Crouch Sr. so sure that his son was guilty? 7. Why did Bellatrix say that she had tried to find Voldemort? 8. Why was Fudge eager to get rid of Crouch Jr. in the end of GoF? 9. Why will Fudge be kicked out of office in HBP? 10. How can the Longbottoms be cured quickly? 11. What is the big secret the Longbottoms will reveal? 12. What is the role of the bubblegum wrappers in the plot? 13. Why are we shown that Healer Strout has memory problems? 14. Why was Neville having memory problems all these years? 15. How can the Longbottoms' subplot be reconnected to the main heart-of-it-all mystery? "Well, yes," agreed Faith. "And besides, I think I like the idea of Frank and Alice recovering completely. Neville deserves it, and it would inject some feeling of new hope and healing into a series that had started to become a bit morbid for my taste." "Does this mean I've passed the inspection?" Asked the Captain eagerly. "I guess it does." "Good! I thought this would be just the time to set sail!" Faith was on the dock in two and a half seconds. "Well, goodbye then," sighed Neri. "Take George his cart back, will you?" He started the motor and untied the tether. The ship began to open the distance from the dock, slowly gathering speed as its bow was directed towards the open bay. Captain Neri waved from the helm. "See you after the hurricane!" Faith waved back from the dock. "Or not", she muttered under her breath, and started pushing the empty cart back to George's, stomping her high-heel Mary-Janes as she walked just to fill the nice calming solidity of the earth under her feet, and taking several deep breathes of salty sea air. The wind was starting to build power. "I really love hurricanes!" Faith said to herself. "The Bay is always so refreshingly clean after them. So empty and ready for new possibilities". She looked once over her shoulder at the small sailing ship making her way towards the black storm clouds gathering on the horizon. "But I guess even mad theorists have their place. And after all, we always have a fresh supply of them." The sun sent its last ray of light before disappearing behind the clouds, and the name on the little ship's bow shone suddenly: E.L.K.I.N.S. A.V.E.N.G.E.D. Enthralled Longbottoms Know the INside Secret: the Ability to Vanquish the ENemy is Guarded in the Elusive Department. Neri ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> Elkins' Memory Charm Symposium is in posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38812 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38813 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38848 The madwoman's warning is from a later Elkins post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45290 which was written shortly before OotP and coined the "hurricane watch" metaphor. SILK GOWNS, which suggested many scenarios for the Longbottoms' condition including some very similar to my own, was described in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80592 The notions of Bang and Dud in Theory Bay are explained in: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#bigbang and Faith is described in: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#faith ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 23:25:06 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius' wand Message-ID: <20050616232507.35088.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130844 I don't remember if we have reached a conclusion about whether when an animagus transforms he keeps his wand? how abou the clothing? While I was thinking of that, a question came to my mind: Where did Siruis get a wand? He didn't have one at Azkaban, but then later in OoP he's got one. Was it his old wand or did someone (DD) got him a new one? I guess the MoM takes the wands of wizards sent to Azkaban, and gives them back once they're out. But Sirius escaped from Azkaban, so where did he get his wand? he couldn't have walked into Ollivander's and buy one, or perhaps he used Crookshanks like he did with Harry's broom in PoA. Thoughts anyone? Juli __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 01:24:05 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' wand In-Reply-To: <20050616232507.35088.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050617012405.9645.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130845 --- Juli wrote: > I don't remember if we have reached a conclusion > about whether when an animagus transforms he keeps > his > wand? how abou the clothing? > good question--I had kind of wondered that as well. I always assumed that it was like being a werewolf in terms of you'd end up naked after transformation from an animal to person and it was a question of storing your stuff where you'd remember where it was. laurie ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From labmystc at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 01:27:30 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:27:30 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: ** ** > > Any thoughts?> > > Karen < I think DD tells Harry the contents of the prophecy for the exact reason you mentioned above. He has been away from Harry all year, left him to stew in his own anger and outrageous thoughts, and allowed the situation to progress beyond his control, i.e. the death of Sirius. DD shows what feelings he has for Harry during this scene, almost as if he is Harry's father. I had talked about DD being all-knowing in an earlier post, and got reamed for it. So, I went back and re-read some of OoTp. I think DD had no idea that the situation would spiral out of control, and result in Sirius's death. In his drive to stop LV from obtaining the prophecy, I think DD became a little nearsighted, and overlooked the fact that his potential protege was suffering. However, I think DD finally realizes that Harry can handle more than he thought he could, and that's why he felt he should tell him the prophecy. As for LV finding out, I think that perhaps Harry will realize that Occlumency is important, and perhaps DD will teach him this time around. Chris From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 17 01:40:49 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:40:49 -0000 Subject: Why is Ron allowed 2 friends at the World Cup? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130847 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nathaniel" wrote: > Sorry if this subject has been discussed before, but it isn't > mentioned > in the FAQ and it has bothered me for sometime now. Why is Ron > allowed > to take two of his friends to the World Cup and none of his many > siblings are allowed to take any -- especially considering Hermione > doesn't even particularly like Quidditch? > > Surely Lee Jordan, who comments on the Quidditch matches at Hogwarts > would be interested in watching Bagman do the play-by-play from the > box > seats. It seems unfair to me that Ron gets to bring both his best > friend and his second best friend, but no other Weasleys get to > bring > anyone. I know Hermione is also friends with Ginny, but she doesn't > appear to be one of Ginny's best friends. Comments anyone? > -Nathaniel (Natti) Valky: My take on that situation is that Amos(is it Amos who gets Arthur the tickets?) probably went out of his way to get one for Harry Potter anyway. With Harry's every move watched closely by the WW it would be common knowledge that Harry would turn up at the QWC if his friends the Weasley's were there. I would be not the slightest bit surprised if the extra two tickets were intentionally given to Arthur to be specifically for Harry and his muggle girlfriend. Hence noone was really favouring Ron in this instance, but as usual the MOM at large was favouring Harry. From slmuth at hotmail.com Thu Jun 16 19:39:08 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:39:08 -0000 Subject: New Droobles Anagram? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130848 Being dissatisfied with the "Gold Bribe below St. Mungo's" anagram for "Droobles best blowing gum" I went looking for another, and found this: Dig D.L. bones below Urg's tomb D.L. being short for Dark Lord, and Urg being a goblin, perhaps Urg the Unclean mentioned in GoF (p618 US). We know that the Death Eaters were torturing the Longbottoms for their knowledge of where to find Voldemort -- perhaps they buried him, or knew where his body was buried, i.e. below Urg's tomb. JKR has said that the graveyard at Hogwarts will come into the story at some point. Maybe Urg's tomb is there. Maybe there is still some use for Voldemort's bones, or some knowledge to be gained from them. All this time the Longbottoms have managed to hold on to this crucial piece of knowledge, trying compulsively over the years to tell the only one who might listen: Neville. Or maybe this anagram is just a conicidence. Thoughts? Janeway From labmystc at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 01:41:45 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:41:45 -0000 Subject: Fudge, Harry's Expulsion, and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: <20050616145107.41335.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130849 > Juli again: > I don't think so, Fudge (like most of the > wizards, IMO), believe that LV is gone, but not death, > he's heard the rumors, he used to listen to DD, he > can't be that stupid (or can he?). I think Fudge > doesn't want to believe, but deep down I think he > *knows* LV is back, it's just easier to ignore DD and > Harry than to actually face the fact that LV is back > with all his strengh, Sirius says something like this > in GoF (when he meets HRH at Hogsmade) and Arthur > Weasley also explains at the Quidditch world cup what > it would mean to have LV back. > > IMO of course > > Juli S P O I L E R S P A C E Also, remember at the end of GoF when the dementors had killed Barty Crouch, and everyone was gathered in the infirmary ward. Fudge believed at that point that Harry was crazy. He had read the articles by Rita Skeeter, and had found out things he didn't know before, like Harry being a Parselmouth, and having "fits" as Fudge calls them, due to the pains from his scar. Fudge suspects Harry of having hallucinations, and perhaps such that Harry is imagining LV's return, and DD is covering for him as usual. And as DD states, Fudge is "blinded by the love of the office he holds." He has been minister of magic during a relatively quiet 13 years, and he fears a revolt and dismissal from office if he spreads the word that LV is back. Take a look at the real world today. It is entirely possible for leaders to be blinded by their own power and arrogance. I am in agreeance with some: I think now that Fudge knows LV is back, and that Harry is the final solution so to speak, I think his feelings toward Harry will change quite quickly, whether he gets sacked or not. Chris From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jun 17 01:45:59 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:45:59 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130850 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > This has been puzzling me for some time. As I understand it, the > whole point of everything DD did in OotP was to keep LV from > learning the remainder of the prophecy. Jen: As an aside, the prophecy was also bait to lure the DE's and/or preferably Voldemort to the MOM and thus out in the open. Standing guard by the prophecy room allowed Order members to alert authorities the minute DE's or Voldemort entered the area. (Credit to MAGIC DISHWASHER theorists here, I believe). That doesn't answer the question of which Order member was supposed to be on guard the night Harry & Co. went to the MOM. I suppose that Order member was attacked and removed by the DE's prior to Harry's arrival. But we don't find out who it was in OOTP. Hmmm. Karen: > After the battle in the MoM, LV knows that the prophecy has > smashed and the contents are lost. DD knows that Harry has not > got far with Occlumancy and that LV is aware of the connection so > can access Harry's mind. Why then does DD immediately tell Harry > the contents of the prophecy? Now LV can get it from Harry's > mind. If it was so important that LV didn't find out then why not > continue the "Oh dear the prophecy is smashed" line. Jen: I read this part to mean Dumbledore feels Harry is safe from Voldemort's intrusions now. Perhaps he supects LV will no longer try to invade Harry's mind again after discovering Harry is 'full of the force he detests'. DD did say that in the end 'it mattered not that you could not close your mind' which could very well spell the end of Occlumency. (all quotes US, chap. 37, p. 844) OTOH, Harry could be safe only for awhile. Dumbledore may suspect LV won't try to invade Harry again immediately because he paid a high price for it and weakened himself, at least temporarily. If that's the case, DD takes the opportunity to tell Harry 'everything' feeling the benefit outweighs the risk. Dumbledore certainly learned keeping Harry in the dark was *not* a good idea. Karen: > If it's suddenly not really that important that LV could access it > from Harry, why did DD have to stay away from Harry all year, > leave him stewing in ignorance all summer and allow a situation to > develop that ended up in the loss of one of the most important > people in Harry's world? Jen: It wasn't only the prophecy Dumbeldore was trying to protect from Voldemort. He was also trying to protect members of the Order, Hogwarts teachers, Order secrets, etc. Anything Harry had access to could be retrieved by Voldemort. I suspect in Dumbledore's mind, it was only a matter of time before Voldemort heard the contents of the prophecy. They stalled as long as they could, but it probably wasn't the most *significant* Order secret Dumbledore was hiding from Voldemort. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jun 17 01:57:24 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:57:24 -0000 Subject: New Droobles Anagram? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catjaneway" wrote: > Being dissatisfied with the "Gold Bribe below St. Mungo's" anagram > for "Droobles best blowing gum" I went looking for another, and > found this: > > Dig D.L. bones below Urg's tomb > > D.L. being short for Dark Lord, and Urg being a goblin, perhaps Urg > the Unclean mentioned in GoF (p618 US). > > We know that the Death Eaters were torturing the Longbottoms for > their knowledge of where to find Voldemort -- perhaps they buried > him, or knew where his body was buried, i.e. below Urg's tomb. JKR > has said that the graveyard at Hogwarts will come into the story at > some point. Maybe Urg's tomb is there. > > Maybe there is still some use for Voldemort's bones, or some > knowledge to be gained from them. All this time the Longbottoms have > managed to hold on to this crucial piece of knowledge, trying > compulsively over the years to tell the only one who might listen: > Neville. > > Or maybe this anagram is just a conicidence. Thoughts? > > Janeway Valky: I completely agree with your precept Janeway. The Longbottoms were /rumoured?/ to have specific knowledge of Voldies whereabouts, so it makes sense that a secret message from Alice would entail something of that nature. Besides I was never satisfied with Gold Bribe.. which I *think* I am partially credited with after coming up with the embarrassing Old Bridge below St Mungos theory and being corrected by the spawner of the gold bribe theory. So I like the concept that a Doobles anagram would led to information about Voldies bones, plus I can see it as plot viable too. The Lestranges might have intended to resurrect him, I can imagine that LV left his faithful with exact instructions of how to do that, and orders to do so in the event of his death. As for the actual unscramble that you have suggested, well, it's OK and could work, but I am not too sure yet wether its the right one exactly. Have you come up with anything else based around the word dig yet? Just to carry on with the theory of Voldies bones for a little.. How exactly do you suppose it might help in the fight against LV if Neville digs him up? Valky From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 02:15:03 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:15:03 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury page on Mythology - possible spoiler Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130852 While looking for the Bloomsbury screensaver I looked around their site and came across this page: http://bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/default.asp?sec=4 Surely someone else here has found this eons ago and there has probably been discussion about it. I just wonder what sort of foreshadowing there might be there, give that *is* the Publisher's site. For example Graup calls Hermione, Herme. Why does JKR use this name? Does this mean that Hermione is going to have something to do with taking someone to the land of the dead?? Dragons are immune to fire. Humm a use for dragon's blood here?? Nagini - a shape changer?? Lot of interesting things on this page and just make me go hummmm?? Tonks_op From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Thu Jun 16 08:18:08 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:18:08 -0000 Subject: Madam Hooch: Yellow Eyes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130853 Fanofminerva: > > > his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen > yellowish > > > eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, > > > > > Wonder if there is a connection to Madame Hooch? Dina Lerret: > > Possibly related to Remus Lupin? {g} I could've sworn Lupin's eye > > colour was referenced as being in the yellow/gold spectrum. Arcum: > Nope. They have dark circles under them, and his eyes twinkle, but no > colour references... Going off the track a bit...the lion guy could be related to Hooch. Or maybe the lion guy is part chimaera. That was my first impression of the description, although Rowling likes to describe her characters in relation to animals. From labmystc at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 02:00:56 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:00:56 -0000 Subject: Rumpling hair despair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eileennicholson at a... wrote: > I just wondered why, if Harry's hair 'simply grew that way, all over >the place' (UK Paperback PS p.21) did James need to be 'messing up >your hair because you think it looks cool to look like you've just >got off your broomstick',as Lily put it (OotP p.714) ? I can't point you to a specific message as I'm relatively new here, and I don't want to search through 130,000+ messages either. BUt I can give you my thoughts: Everyone has always commented to Harry exactly how much he reminds them of James and Lily. DD has even remarked that Harry has some of his father in him. Remember in SS/PS, Harry's hair *magically* grows back after Petunia takes him and has his head nearly shaved bald. Perhaps since James purposefully made his hair that way, and Harry retains a little bit of his father's *magic* so to speak, Harry's hair naturally does what it does. Chris From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 17 02:48:53 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:48:53 -0700 Subject: Time Magazine to interview JKR Message-ID: <410-22005651724853287@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130855 Chancie: I found this info on Muggle Net, and thought many of you would like to know: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ TIME also to interview JKR An article in today's Boston Globe reports that J.K. has granted an interview to TIME Magazine, bringing the final number of interviews to four. Posted by Emerson on 06/16 http://mugglenet.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you would like to read the article from the Boston Globe, the the link is: http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2005/06/16/harry_potter_and_the_gilded_book_launch/ I read through the article and couldn't find a date that the interview would be released, but perhaps I only over looked it. If anyone sees a date, please let me know Chancie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 17 02:48:57 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:48:57 -0700 Subject: Today show interview air date Message-ID: <410-22005651724857302@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130856 Chancie: Hi, TLC has received word from NBC giving the Interview date for Katie Couric's interview with JKR. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ Here's their post: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Update: Couric Interview to Air July 17 and 18 We've just received an update from NBC letting us know that Katie Couric's interview with Jo Rowling will air on July 17 on Dateline and July 18 on Today. More details about Today's HBP week as we go. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So much for getting to se an interview BEFORE HBP. I'm guessing the interview must contain some type of spoilers or something, and that's why it's not being aired before July 16. Oh well, at least we've passed the 30day mark. Less than a month left!!!!! Chancie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cheeky_tasha at hotmail.com Thu Jun 16 18:23:57 2005 From: cheeky_tasha at hotmail.com (cheeky_tasha) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:23:57 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: <20050616142804.2068.qmail@web26308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130857 Karen Barker wrote: > > Why then does DD immediately tell Harry the contents of the prophecy? Now LV can get it from Harry's mind. Hells: > > I believe that Dumbledore showed Harry an edited version of the prophesy and that he will reveal the rest later. The information in the prophecy was rather pointless in my mind, we didn't really learn anything that we hadn't already guessed. No part of it should have been described as "a weapon of sorts". I always believed that Voldermort assuming the prophecy destroyed and unaware of dumbledorrs method of storage will not attempt to penetrate Harry's mind to look for it, he wouldn't believe it to be there in the first place. "cheeky_tasha" From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 02:49:10 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:49:10 -0000 Subject: New Droobles Anagram? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130858 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catjaneway" wrote: > Being dissatisfied with the "Gold Bribe below St. Mungo's" anagram > for "Droobles best blowing gum" I went looking for another, and > found this: > > Dig D.L. bones below Urg's tomb > > D.L. being short for Dark Lord, and Urg being a goblin, perhaps Urg the Unclean mentioned in GoF (p618 US). > > We know that the Death Eaters were torturing the Longbottoms for > their knowledge of where to find Voldemort -- (Snip)> > Maybe there is still some use for Voldemort's bones, or some > knowledge to be gained from them. Tonks: Now I am a bit confused here. I thought that LV didn't have a body to dig up? That it evaporated or something at GH. I have had this theory that the DL is someone or something else than TR/LV. You may have read my post on it in message 130215. Would this theory fit with any of this? Maybe it isn't TR/LV's bones we need. Maybe the DL is *something* else and these are the bones that are needed to stop TR/LV. What do you think?? It sure sounds to me that if JKR mentioned Urg in GOF and you can actually make an anagram that says that.. WOW!!! You might be on to something here. But I thing the DL is the key, not LV. Tonks_op From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 17 02:58:09 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:58:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bloomsbury page on Mythology - possible spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B23C41.2050200@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130859 Tonks wrote: >http://bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/default.asp?sec=4 > >For example Graup calls Hermione, Herme. Why does JKR use >this name? Does this mean that Hermione is going to have something >to do with taking someone to the land of the dead?? > >Dragons are immune to fire. Humm a use for dragon's blood here?? > >Nagini - a shape changer?? > >Lot of interesting things on this page and just make me go hummmm?? > > Tonks, you're going to have to be more specific... that link just leads to a general page, with some links, no actual information on it. It uses scripting whereby all the pages read off those links has the same url, so you can't just copy and paste the url, you need to give us 'directions' of how to get there from the above link. I followed all the links with that url and couldn't find anything about Grawp or Nagini, just pictures of the bookcovers, older JKR interviews, etc. heather the buzzard From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jun 17 03:06:32 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 03:06:32 -0000 Subject: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (4 of 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130860 >Neri: > The sun sent its last ray of light before disappearing behind the > clouds, and the name on the little ship's bow shone suddenly: > > E.L.K.I.N.S. A.V.E.N.G.E.D. > > Enthralled Longbottoms Know the INside Secret: the Ability to Vanquish > the ENemy is Guarded in the Elusive Department. Jen: Bravo, Neri! You deserve some sort of TBAY trophy (or a really stiff drink) for tying together pretty much all the dangling plotlines around the Longbottom torture, Pensieve Four, the Crouches, Fudge....and need I go on? (The Veil, Neville, Gran--oh wait--how does Trevor fit in all this?). I need to re-read and see if there are any holes in the deck or leaks below , but really, the idea of Fudge's involvement and the Forgetfulness potion is both a very compelling plot-line and a fitting, yet heart-breaking, theory for Neville's forgetfulness (and it *is* described as "forgetfulness" when he receives the Remembrall in PS/SS). And you've given perhaps my favorite thematic explanation for the Longbottoms: Weak, pure-blood bunglers with hearts of gold (my addition ). Well, except there's a teeny-tiny hole there in that Gran describes them as 'highly gifted' in OOTP, but then what would we expect her to say? Of course she wants to remember her son as 'highly gifted' given his current condition. There's still one puzzling part for me about the Droobles wrappers. Not only related to Neri's theory, but all wrapper theories. Why does Gran not know what Alice is handing Neville after all the years if it was always Droobles? She says: "Very well, Alice dear, very well---Neville, take it, whatever it is." (US, chap. 23, p. 514) Maybe she *doesn't* always give him wrappers, or maybe it's not always Droobles. Or something. Will have to ponder that. ****************************************************************** Jen totters off in search of a stiff drink herself, muttering under her breath about launching a ship *now* of all times, with a hurricane on the way and loyal TBAYers battening the hatches and whatnot in preparation. "But that Captain Neri, he spins a good yarn, doesn't he? Hehe. Crouch Sr. planning the demise of Voldemort in an amphitheatre; Fudge orchestrating the delivery of Droobles for the Ministry's 'favorite patients' at St. Mungos; Neville inadvertently saving his family and probably Harry when the Longbottom's secret is revealed....Hey, and Lupin doesn't have to be ESE! Yes, I like it....." Jen stumbles around the dark bay, wishing she'd thought to bring a jacket and some supplies for the long wait until Hurricane Jo. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Jun 17 03:12:34 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 03:12:34 -0000 Subject: Harry had to fail - Harry's Tragic Flaws In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130861 > Julie Rice > series was more realistic.< > > actually wonder if he will make it at the end of book > 7. If he did just fine in book 5 and book 6, there's > no way he could fail in book 7. I guess he could, but > we would all hate the series because "it's all about > the ending" (a quote from a recent Johnny depp movie).< Phoenixgod2000 Reply to Julie Rice: I agree with you. Harry had to lose in OOTP because it is supposed to heighten the tension for the later books. If all Harry ever does is win then the story is going to get stale. The drama is lessened. That having been said, I think the book ultimately failed at that because the events and mistakes did not flow logically, at least for me. I've talked about it with a few other list members about it and I think we came to the conclusion that Rowling so needed the story to get to a certain point by the end of the book she rushed the characters and warped them a little from their previous actions in the other book, to the point where they became OOC so that they would make the mistakes she needed them to make so that the actions she needed taken were for the good of the plot. I've called it Author's Fiat in the past because the characters just do what she needs them to do instead of actions that arose organically out of the personalities and histories that are previously established. Honestly, Ron, Draco and Snape were the only three characters that seemed in character to me--at least to the way I have always interepreted them. Well, them and Dobby :) > Jen replies: > I completely agree with this opionion and wanted to expand on it a > little. I think that Harry will also continue to fail through HBP, > wherein he will eventually learn the lessons he needs to defeat > Voldemort in Book 7. OotP was the first book that really showed us all of Harry's flaws, which I think is why so many peopl finished > that book disliking him. Reply to Jen: I disagree with you Jen because I think OOTP is going to be Harry's lowest point in terms of his personal life. while the books and the war might grow darker I don't think Harry is going to sink any lower. HBP is going to be a story about Harry pulling himself back up with book seven sealing the deal. Harry needs a win bad in HBP and I think he is going to get it. The way I see the story going is that end of OOTP caused Harry to lose a bit of his edge and nerve (second guessing himself) and the HBP is going to be about the recovery of his essential Harry Potterness (at least that's what I think). >Harry is: > *Short-tempered: I think that Harry's tendency to fly off the > handle may soon alienate some of his friends, or may land him in big > trouble. Actually, I would argue that Harry is the opposite of short tempered. How often before OOTP have we seen him lose his temper? Not often, iirc. Harry is a slow boiler and OOTP pushed him to his boiling point. Well, that and puberty. Thats it. He's much more even tempered in all the rest of the books. >More telling is > his inability to control his temper around Umbridge, even though he > was specifically warned by McGonagall on more than one occasion to > stay quiet. McG's advice is terrible in the book. For someone who's taught for forty years she doesn't seem to have a great grasp of teenage psychology. Her punishments and scoldings made things worse for Harry. Not better. It made him feel like he had no one to turn to which led to his desperation at the end of the book. Besides, standing up and telling the truth may not have been smart, but it was moral. and it had nothing to do with his temper. > *Arrogant: What really surprised me about Harry in OotP was his > outright disregard for the advice his friends and mentors gave him > because he either felt he was entitled to something or simply felt he > was above it. I don't think there is any evidence of Harry being arrogant and certainly occulomency wasn't part of it. Harry didn't want to learn it because he was curious, not arrogant. And since the information that was being concealed was about him, I would say he was entitled to it. I also think the way he handled the DA is the best example of Harry's lack of arrogance. > *Self-pitying: Some of you may disagree with me here, or may think > Harry is entitled to feel this way given all of the tragedy he has > seen in his formative years. I think there are more productive ways to > deal with his feelings and he needs to overcome this flaw in order to > concentrate on what's ahead. I agree with you that Harry could deal with things in a more constructive way but thats true of everyone in OOTP. Snape, Sirius, DD, Lupin, Molly, Ron, Hermione, Cho, Lucius, Draco, and Voldemort all could have dealt with things on a more constuctive level. Pretty much everyone but Luna. Luna was very constructive at all times in the story. For those who pity him as well and > feel that he is justified, I give you Neville as an example, who has > had his share of tragedies and has never pulled the "You > don't > understand/Woe is me" card that Harry pulled with his friends on > multiple occassions in OotP. First of all, Neville hasn't suffered more than Harry, and secondly Neville has a crapload of his own problems to deal with. He is deeply self pitying, but his self esteem is so low that he doesn't bother complaining to anyone because he doesn't think it'll do any good. > *Impulsive: When Harry thought that Sirius was being tortured in > OotP, he was ready to do just about anything to get there and save > him. When he is placed in these situations he doesn't think > about repercussions ? at these times, Hermione has always been > his grounding force, trying to make him stop and think first before doing. But what happens if Hermione isn't there to slow him down? Harry is impulsive but that quality has so far saved more lives than it has taken. His impulsivity has saved Sirius, Hermione, Ginny, and just about every other main character in the books at one point or another. On balance, I think Harry's instincts help far more than they hurt. >And it's true > that > at times that this can save the day - but I don't think it > ultimately works in the context of defeating Voldemort. Voldemort > doesn't think with his heart because he doesn't have one. He > deals > in manipulation, torture, and ultimately, strategy. Harry needs to > be able to think before dealing with him which leads to an nteresting > dilemma. Harry needs to think in order to reach the endgame with the big V, but ultimately harry is going to win through his passion and instincts. It's not going to come down to a duel or fight to the death. Its going to end because Harry is going to do something simple and instinctive. Something that voldemort couldn't have concieved of and that will be what spells his end. Harry is going to win because he is human and Voldemort isn't. I think if Harry becomes to much of a thinker he's going to lose some of his essential Harryness, which is a person who looks before he leaps because of his saving people thing. And thats why I like him! phoenixgod2000 From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 03:25:05 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 03:25:05 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury page on Mythology - possible spoiler In-Reply-To: <42B23C41.2050200@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > Tonks, you're going to have to be more specific... that link just leads to a general page, with some links, no actual information on it. It uses scripting whereby all the pages read off those links has the same url, Tonks: Oh, man, I thought I had lost my mind there for a minute. I couldn't find it again. I don't really know how I got there. But thank goodness I found it again in my list of sites viewed. So here it is: http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/content.asp?sec=5&sec2=6 I hope this one works. Tonks_op From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 03:44:46 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 03:44:46 -0000 Subject: Harry had to fail - Harry's Tragic Flaws/ Neville's sufferings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130863 Jen: For those who pity him as well and > > feel that he is justified, I give you Neville as an example, who > has > > had his share of tragedies and has never pulled the "You > > don't > > understand/Woe is me" card that Harry pulled with his friends on > > multiple occassions in OotP. Phoenixgod: > First of all, Neville hasn't suffered more than Harry, and secondly > Neville has a crapload of his own problems to deal with. He is > deeply self pitying, but his self esteem is so low that he doesn't > bother complaining to anyone because he doesn't think it'll do any > good. Alla: Oh, absolutely. I love Neville. I love his character development and if he were a little more developed from the beginning, he would have been my second favorite child character after Harry. ( Although I am quite happy with what Neville become). Said all that, I cannot even compare his sufferings and Harry's, although I will concede that Neville comes the closest to Harry in the amount of misery he went through. Neville did not have Dursleys in his life though, although yes, he did have that wonderful uncle of his. :-) Phoenixgod: Harry is going to > win because he is human and Voldemort isn't. I think if Harry > becomes to much of a thinker he's going to lose some of his > essential Harryness, which is a person who looks before he leaps > because of his saving people thing. And thats why I like him! > Alla: And again I agree. Of course we don't know what the ending is going to be, but I think that "it is your heart that saved you" ( paraphrase) is going to play major role somehow. I sincerely hope that while Harry will "master his emotions" :-) he will never shut them down completely, otherwise he maybe become like one of his teachers we all know :-) and THAT I hope won't happen. :) Great post, Phoenixgod. Just my opinion, Alla. From barbfulton at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 03:40:40 2005 From: barbfulton at yahoo.com (Barb Fulton) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 03:40:40 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130864 I wrote these weeks ago. This is the 4th time I've tried to submit them. Hopefully, it will work one of these days! Thanks, Tigetpatronus-this was fun-doing my predictions and reading others! 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Professor Trelawny (too many Divination teachers at the moment!). LV will get a hold of her to get the full prophesy. There will be many minor character deaths, some Muggles, Hermione's dad, and more. DD wil die, (sniff, sob), but not until book 7. 2. Who is the half-blood prince? The lion man, who is a historical figure 3. What is Lily's big secret? Lily placed the Secret Keeper Charm, and the ancient magic that protected Harry. Lily was the brightest witch of her age. There really won't be a lot on her in book 6, but much more in book 7. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Tonks, but nobody will know it's her for a while. She'll be using her metamorphmagus abilities to disguise herself. DD wants an Auror at Hogwarts to keep an eye on things, especially the children of DE's. The trio will keep noticing how clumsy the DADA teacher is, and will fingure it out about mid-book. That's when we'll find out for sure, too, although we'll suspect. (I have a theory that Felix Felices is Tonks's alias as the DADA teacher, but the whole thing may be a bit far fetched, huh?) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Relationship is too strong of a word for Book 6. He'll date a few girls-probably Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones, Parvati, and maybe one more. But none of them will go very well, and he'll wonder if he's unlovable. He'll also be afraid to get too close to anyone, thinking it would put her in danger. Throughout the book, he'll start to notice Ginny more and more, but won't ask her out because she's dating Dean. Ginny will also date at least one other guy (a Slytherin, probably Nott)- Ron will NOT approve (that's how we come to know a "good Slytherin.) In book 7, Harry and Ginny will get together. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I had been thinking Amelia Bones, (although my theory was that she would be killed in this book, and a DE would take her place.) But now I'm thinking Amos Diggory, who we will NOT be happy about. So, I'll go with Amos. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? DD's pensieve, which will allow Harry to see more about Godric's Hollow. DD wasn't there, but Hagrid will put in his memories about picking him up, including highlights of the missing 24 hours. Harry will put in his own memories of that night, and will discover much more than he ever thought he knew. 8. Will Harry take advanced potions? Yes, and it will irk Snape to no end. Since he did not administer the test, Snape will insist that Harry did not earn it. We will never know if the results were changed or not. 9. Will Neville take advanced potions? Yes. He will be more confident, but still won't do terribly well at first. At least he won't melt anymore cauldrons! He'll improve slowly over the year and end up earning very high marks. He will stand up to Snape, and gain a grudging respect, although Snape will never admit it! 10. How many OWLS did Harry get? Eight...DADA (O), Charms (O), Transfiguration (E), Potions (O), CoMC (O), Herbology (E), History of Magic (A), Astronomy (A) (Did not pass Divination-the examiner should've died already? come on!) 5 Predictions: 1. The Gryffindor Quidditch Team: Captain Katie Bell; Chasers: Katie Bell, Ginny, and someone we don't know; Seeker: Harry; Beaters: Dean Thomas and Colin Creevey; Keeper: Ron (Dean tried out to be with his girlfriend Ginny, and Colin wants to impress Ginny-didn't work.) 2. Fred and George are full members of the Order, and are developing products that will assist the Order. I think we'll see a nifty little invention that will identify Deatheaters by letting others see their Dark Mark. 3. There are good Slytherins (note the plural!). Some of them will be in the DA, which is Hogwarts most popular school-sancioned club, led by Harry. 4. There will be an attempt to kill the Weasley twins. One of the twins will be captured, and we won't know if he survived for a while. Percy will be instrumental in freeing his brother, and that's how he will be accepted back into the family. 5. At least one of Dobby's parents was the house-elf at the Potter house. That's where Dobby was as a small child, and that's why he was so unhappy at the Malfoy's. He was used to being treated well (and seeing his parents treated well) by the Potters. To Dobby, Harry means "home." Yeah, far-fetched, but hey, I had fun! -Barb From kjones at telus.net Fri Jun 17 05:39:10 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:39:10 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I'm presenting "Snape's Appeal in Canon: Severus, Meet Sherlock" at this fall's Harry Potter Symposium in Salem!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B261FE.1040402@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130865 unicorn_72 wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivienne_davalon" > wrote: > > > > > > 1) The paper I am presenting is called "Snape's Appeal in Canon: > > Severus, Meet Sherlock" and the summary follows: Kathy writes: You made some very good comparisons and have some very good points. I think there are some interesting differences in the writing of the characters. 1. Holmes himself wasn't the most interesting part of the stories. He was merely the vehicle used to demonstrate the use of logic and the "use of the brain". Snape on the other hand is not a vehicle so much as an enigma. 2. Holmes was not a cruel person. He was simply not involved in the lives of anyone including Watson. He appeared to have no discernible need for anyone in his life, including his twin brother. He was rude, opinionated, brooked no argument, and frequently hurt Watson's feelings. Holmes was snarky to everybody except interesting clients. Snape is cruel and deliberately hurtful. While he often arrives at the correct conclusion through the use of observation and logic, he just as often fails to do so because of the inability to see beyond his personal hates and fears. Snape appears to be quite pleasant with fellow teachers and those in authority. 3. Having read all of the Sherlock Holmes stories, I don't recall ever wondering what his home life was like, or what his family was like. It was as if he was dropped fully formed on the earth. He was very much a two dimensional character. Watson had more humanity than did Holmes. Snape is given more personality. He can be angered, upset, frightened, spiteful, and is much more of a character. He hasn't really done anything brilliant as yet and still he has captured our interest and attention as a person. We are curious about him. 4. Holmes was written as an erratic genius with insomnia. Snape is a competent wizard with insomnia. (so far) 5. Homes was on the side of good and if it was an interesting problem, otherwise he could not care less. We have not been totally convinced that Snape is on the side of good, bad, or let's see who comes out on top. 6. Holmes was the absolute authority. He had enormous personal power. Snape would like to be the absolute authority. He has power only over his students. 7. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle hated Sherlock Holmes by the end and hated having to write stories about him. He could not understand why anybody would read them. JKR likes writing Snape, but she can't understand the interest that this particular character has generated. I can't really explain why, but I find the character of Snape to be more interesting and intriguing than Harry, Dumbledore, or Lupin. I don't really care if Sirius ever returns and Ron and Hermione are just characters. I read around Harry to get to Snape. Of course, come to think of it, I read around Sherlock to get to the puzzle. I hope that you are well-received in Salem. It was an excellent summary. KJ From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 05:55:56 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 05:55:56 -0000 Subject: Why is Ron allowed 2 friends at the World Cup? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nathaniel" wrote: > Sorry if this subject has been discussed before, but it isn't > mentioned > in the FAQ and it has bothered me for sometime now. Why is Ron > allowed > to take two of his friends to the World Cup and none of his many > siblings are allowed to take any -- especially considering Hermione > doesn't even particularly like Quidditch? > > Surely Lee Jordan, who comments on the Quidditch matches at Hogwarts > would be interested in watching Bagman do the play-by-play from the > box > seats. It seems unfair to me that Ron gets to bring both his best > friend and his second best friend, but no other Weasleys get to bring > anyone. I know Hermione is also friends with Ginny, but she doesn't > appear to be one of Ginny's best friends. Comments anyone? > -Nathaniel (Natti) I believe I remember something about George and Fred going off with Lee Jordan when Harry, Ron and Hermione go to get the water. I would think by book four Harry is almost considered a member of the family. He is certainly friends with most of the Weasley's children and after saving Ginny in CoS I think they owed him this. I know Hermione did help on that also. By OotP Hermione seems pretty close to to Ginny as well. Even in GoF Ginny knows about Hermione and Krum and even Harry and Ron didn't know about that. We don't really hear about to many of the other childrens friends so who is to say who else was close enough to merit a ticket that wasn't already going with their family. Percy's girlfriend is not mentioned as far as I remeber but who knows if that lasted past Hogwarts. Bill and Charlie were adults and not living in England at the time their friend most likely were not an option. When Arther got the tickets from Bagman I would think he got 10 with 1 for Harry and the rest for his family and Molly opted not to go and they had an extra ticket and that is how Hermione got to go. I would think Ron and/or Ginny lobbied for her to go. Brent From victoria at missionary.com.sg Thu Jun 16 14:31:18 2005 From: victoria at missionary.com.sg (victoria =)) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:31:18 -0000 Subject: My thoughts on the halfblood prince. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130867 > Lupinlore: > > I still suspect that the HBP is a person. About the HBP, I was just wondering if he could be Dumbledore... Rowling only mentioned that he's neither Potter nor Voldemort. "victoria =)" From maliksthong at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 05:21:23 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 05:21:23 -0000 Subject: New Droobles Anagram? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130868 > Valky > Just to carry on with the theory of Voldie's bones for a little.. > How exactly do you suppose it might help in the fight against LV > if Neville digs him up? Herbology- plant a plant on his grave. See what sprouts. Chys From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 07:29:59 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:29:59 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: -- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, hells456 wrote: Karen Barker wrote: > Tamara We have to think...what if the prophecy involved more than TWO and DD had to edit it for Harry...DD would not tell Harry this...but he certainly does AWARD...and definitely NOT Discourage...Neville, Hermione, and Ron...(nor Fred and George for that matter).... Even in POA, Trelawney mentioned more than just Harry and Voldemort.. We do get that slightest of hints of time travel regarding Fred and George in GOF....(they had the M.Map for mnany years...did either of them stumble in to dd's pensieve sometime over the years(just like Harry?!?!?!?) DD never gives us the "whole"...the only appearances of him giving us more than what we imagined in OOP....Of course he knows a great deal more....but he can tell no one if his inital plans/instincts want to return the wheels of time/change... I have a sneaky suspicion of Ginny signing up for as many courses as Hermione....Why expose her to the existence of time turners in OOP? DDMoe From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Jun 17 07:37:23 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:37:23 -0000 Subject: HBP Predictions Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130870 > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? > Percy > > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Hagrid. He will become the leader of the giants, and the giants will support Hagrid's idol, Albus Dumbledore... > > > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) > Her eyes have special powers. > > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Harry > > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He and Ginny will have an "oddly formal" relationship by the end of HBP... > > > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? > > Madam Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? > > It's a Pensieve. > > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, he needs it to become an auror.. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. He will eventually teach Herbology. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? > > Everything but Astronomy and Divination. > > 5 predictions: > 1. It will be revealed that Sirius and Remus were partners/lovers. 2. We will find out why Snape left the Death-Eaters. 3. Aunt Petunia will use magic...she will be one of the few people to whom magic comes in later life...she will probably use it to save Dudley. 4. Ginny will be captain of the Gryffindor Quidditch team. 5. Viktor Krum will transfer to Hogwarts for his last year Susan McGee, now in northern California From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 09:50:39 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:50:39 -0000 Subject: Rumpling hair despair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130871 Eileen Nicholson wrote: > > I just wondered why, if Harry's hair 'simply grew that way, all over > the > > place' (UK Paperback PS p.21) did James need to be 'messing up your > hair because > > you think it looks cool to look like you've just got off your > broomstick' , > > as Lily put it (OotP p.714) ? Finwitch: I think that Lily was in error, and James *didn't* mess up his hair because he thought he looked cool that way. No - it might be that James pretended to do so OR was actually trying to make his hair lie flat in vain like Harry does and Lily erred in interpreting the gesture. I can imagine James asking Lily to fix his hair after that and when she objects he says: "I thought you didn't like my hair this way. Why don't you do something about it, then?" And if, as I imagine the Potter hair to be, James' hair is back the way it was within few hours, well... it's a start. Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 10:13:52 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:13:52 -0000 Subject: Sirius' wand In-Reply-To: <20050617012405.9645.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130872 > --- Juli wrote: > > > I don't remember if we have reached a conclusion > > about whether when an animagus transforms he keeps > > his > > wand? how abou the clothing? Laurie replied: > good question--I had kind of wondered that as well. I > always assumed that it was like being a werewolf in > terms of you'd end up naked after transformation from > an animal to person and it was a question of storing > your stuff where you'd remember where it was. Finwitch: Well, when McGonagall transforms, she's certainly keeping her robes. We've known this for ages: "He turned to smile at the tabby, but it had gone. Instead he was smiling at a rather severe-looking woman who was wearing square glasses exactly the shape of markings the cathad had around its eyes. She, too, was wearing a cloak, an emerald one." .. (PS, Paperback, page. 13) So, I'd say that animagus keeps the wand where it is - pocket, sleeve or holster... (BTW, where did McGonagall keep that MAP she was reading?) As for Sirius, his wand in OOP was purchased by Dumbledore (As strict as Ollivander is, well- Dumbledore is one of the very few who can give him Phoenix-feathers and Ollivander needs them, so...); Sirius' own, original wand was not with him but in the saddle bag of his motor-cycle when he ended up in Azkaban or he had two to begin with, other one was kept safe somewhere and he got it; the wand was his mother's; it was a Weasley-prank-wand as Sirius never did cast any spells as I recall; he bought/made one while in south where the British Ministry of Magic has no authority; something else... Finwitch From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Fri Jun 17 12:09:21 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:09:21 -0000 Subject: Possible blonde moment Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130873 Lupin's a werewolf. The other three Marauders become animagi to keep him company at full moon. OK so far. The other three can become their animal personae at any time they like. Can Lupin join them, or is he restricted to his monthly visitor? In ohter words, is he both a werewolf and an animagus, or is it either/or? Deborah, who used to be a genuine blonde herself but is now mostly metaphorical! From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 17 12:24:09 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:24:09 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130874 I keep reading about 'the good slytherin' and just wondered where this came from. Is it something Jo has said (I can't find anything) or is it just a myth? Having said that, and never one to look a gift horse in the mouth!, it made me think the following: If there is a good Sltherin, I think Viktor Krum is it. He comes from Durmstrang, which appears to be a school full of Syltherins - they are taught to use the Dark Arts, not just to defend themselves against them, their Headmaster is a Deatheater and they all naturally gravitated to the Slytherin table in the great hall. VK, however says many times that he likes Hogwarts and it's nicer than Durmstrang. I then wondered further as to what happened to SS after he threw his teddy out of the pram and stormed out of Hogwarts because the other founders kept insisting on admitting 'the wrong' sort of students. Did he flounce off to Bulgaria where he could set up his own school the way he wanted? Are the Durmstrang students literally Slitherins? Karen From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Fri Jun 17 12:25:13 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:25:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible blonde moment Message-ID: <1ab.3a2cc538.2fe41b29@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130875 According to the book, he's only a werewolf. There's no cannon to suggest he too can change at will, remember at the end of POA he says Dumbledore never knew there were 3 animagi running around school not 4. So to me that suggests he can't. Because he changed once a month, Lupin probably decided not to learn how to become an animagi because he never wanted to be wolf more than once a month. Danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Fri Jun 17 12:32:00 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:32:00 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The good Slytherin Message-ID: <143.4725afb2.2fe41cc0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130876 I don't think JKR said anything about a good slytherin, I think that someone else came up with it, I think I really only heard it on here. But it's an interesting point about Slytherin leaving and setting up durmstrang. That is always a possibility. danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Jun 17 13:06:10 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:06:10 -0000 Subject: Harry had to fail - Harry's Tragic Flaws/ Neville's sufferings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130877 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Phoenixgod: > > > First of all, Neville hasn't suffered more than Harry, and > secondly > > Neville has a crapload of his own problems to deal with. He is > > deeply self pitying, but his self esteem is so low that he doesn't > > bother complaining to anyone because he doesn't think it'll do any > > good. > > Alla: > > Oh, absolutely. I love Neville. I love his character development and > if he were a little more developed from the beginning, he would have > been my second favorite child character after Harry. ( Although I am > quite happy with what Neville become). > > Said all that, I cannot even compare his sufferings and Harry's, > although I will concede that Neville comes the closest to Harry in > the amount of misery he went through. > > Neville did not have Dursleys in his life though, although yes, he > did have that wonderful uncle of his. :-) > Hickengruendler: I find it very problematic to compare people's sufferings anyway. IMHO, Neville has suffered more than enough. True, he did not have to live with the Dursleys, but he does live with a grandmother, who tells him regularly that he is not as good as his father. IMO, this is partly worse than what the Dursleys do, because Mrs Longbottom does not seem Dursley-like in that she hates the boy. She loves him. But comparing him regularly too Frank, whom Neville never had a chance to get to know, and telling him basically that he is not as good as she had hoped, is quite cruel in it's own way as well. At least Harry knows that the Dursleys hate him and therefore has a reason not to care when they say mean things about him or his parents. But with Neville, it are people, who love him, that belittle him on a regularly basis. No wonder that he lacks self esteem. So yes, shame on old Mrs Longbottom for the way she treats Neville, even though I can understand where she's coming from and that she misses Frank. But I also think she concentrates more on Neville's weaknesses than his strengths. And because Uncle Algie is mentioned. Despite of his, uhm, unorthodox parental methods, I have a different opinion about him. It was him, who gave Neville the plant, therefore probably realising where his real strengths and interesses lay. Hickengruendler From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 17 13:21:09 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:21:09 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: <20050616142804.2068.qmail@web26308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130878 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, hells456 wrote: Hells: > I believe that Dumbledore showed Harry an edited version of the prophesy and that he will reveal the rest later. The information in the prophecy was rather pointless in my mind, we didn't really learn anything that we hadn't already guessed. No part of it should have been described as "a weapon of sorts". Geoff: Personally, I have nmy doubts that Dumbledore showed Harry an edited version. Just looking at the relevant piece for a moment: 'A figure rose out of it, draped in shawls, her eyes magnified to enormous size behind her glasses and she revolved slowly,her feet in the basin. But when Sybill Trelawney spoke, it was not in her usual ethereal, mystic voice, but in the harsh, hoarse tones Harry had heard her use once before: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not.. and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." The slowly revolving Professor Trelawney sank back into the silver mass below and vanished.' (OOTP "The Lost Prophecy" p.741 UK edition) This looks to me like a complete replay of Dumbledore's stored memory. As a corollary to Hells' comment, this throws up the question of "editing" a Pensieve memory. Surely it is not being suggested that you can take your own stored memory and actually alter it - amalgamating, modifying it so that it does not reflect the actual real events? This seems that you could almost perform memory modification on yourself.... So that you end up with a different set of memories to reality? That could lead to some very strange results and sounds a potentially dangerous procedure. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jun 17 15:07:07 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:07:07 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130879 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > This has been puzzling me for some time. As I understand it, the > whole point of everything DD did in OotP was to keep LV from learning > the remainder of the prophecy. After the battle in the MoM, LV knows that the prophecy has smashed and the contents are lost. DD knows that Harry has not got far with Occlumancy and that LV is aware of the connection so can access Harry's mind. Why then does DD immediately tell Harry the contents of the prophecy? Pippin: I think Dumbledore is convinced the unheard part of the prophecy applied to things that had already happened and it wouldn't have done any harm if Voldemort had heard it. The prophecy was bait. "Nevertheless, you should never have believed for an instant that there was any necessity for you to go to the Department of Mysteries tonight." (OOP-US ch 37 p 825) I'm also pretty sure the scar connection is broken for now -- Voldemort ought to be furious over what happened, yet from the moment Voldemort releases him, there's no more mention of Harry's scar hurting at all. Karen: If it's suddenly not really that important that LV could access it from Harry, why did DD have to stay away from Harry all year, leave him stewing in ignorance all summer and allow a situation to develop that ended up in the loss of one of the most important people in Harry's world? Pippin: Dumbledore felt that he and Harry had such an intense emotional attachment that Voldemort would be able to sense when Harry was in Dumbledore's presence if they made eye contact. LV might use Harry to attack Dumbledore, to try to force one of them to destroy the other, or he might try to use legilimency to spy on Dumbledore through Harry's mind. Canon shows this fear was justified. But even remote contact would have been dangerous, because there were other ways in which Voldemort could have exploited the relationship -- he could have used an illusion of Dumbledore as bait the same way he used Sirius, for example. Dumbledore ignored Harry very publicly at the hearing, which was certainly reported to Voldemort. After that, Voldemort would be unlikely to send Harry an Owl in what purported to be Dumbledore's handwriting, saying, "Meet me at the Department of Mysteries, there's something I have to show you," and if he did, Harry would have been suspicious of it. Voldemort has never experienced real love or friendship but in his life as Riddle there were probably many people who liked him, as Ginny did, until they found out what he was like. That's how friendships go, in Voldemort's experience. It wouldn't be suspicious to him that Dumbledore had suddenly grown cold toward Harry. He would assume that Dumbledore had never really liked Harry at all and that Harry now knew it. Pippin From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 14:12:05 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:12:05 -0000 Subject: Blonde wolves and ESE!Lupin In-Reply-To: <1ab.3a2cc538.2fe41b29@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130880 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nrsedany2be at a... wrote: Lupin probably decided not to > learn how to become an animagi because he never wanted to be wolf more than once > a month. > Danielle Interesting thought, that. Lupin turns into a wolf because he is infected with lycanthropy, but that doesn't mean that, if he became an animagus, his animagus form would be a wolf. Generally, one's patronus and animagus forms are the same. Lupin's patronus charm never took a recognizable form in the books, AIR, and even in the movies, his patronus was indistinct and smoky. I wonder what Lupin's animagus and patronus forms would be? If they are also wolves, then might that not support the ESE!Lupin theory? But I think we have no canon on this. TK -- TigerPatronus From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jun 17 15:44:17 2005 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (Smythe, Boyd T {FLNA}) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:44:17 -0500 Subject: ELKINS AVENGED Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130881 Neri, you have successfully driven me from retirement with your fantastic TBAY and theory. Makes me long for the old days when beautiful boats cruised the harbor by the dozens. Congratulations on your lovely new vessel! A few thoughts: * Extra points for explaining a goodly number of otherwise inexplicable plot points. Like many, I've been bothered by JKR's inclusion of the Longbottom subplot, complete with a number of unique characters and locations. Far too much detail for something so seemingly innocuous...unless it has all been to set up something similarly bangy to ELKINS AVENGED. * I never liked the other memory charm theories--too messy, poor fit with the themes, IMHO. This one, however, seems much tighter. Though I'm not sure it is necessary to give Neville *any* memory issues of his own, given his familial propensity for highbrow oddity. He seems more the byproduct of a well-intentioned, but overly 1900's-era British pureblood household. And he's just not that smart at some things. But, as you say, the rest appears to float on its own. * Are you sure neither Gran nor Strout are in on the action? Perhaps Fudge is exercising some Ministerial powers to gain their cooperation, no? Although Gran may simply be quite detached, Strout innocently overlooking the Devil's Snare seems a bit unreasonable. * What of Lockhart? Not my favorite character, but Jo has spent quite a few pages building him. Might that still have future value to your theory? Perhaps during his ward wanderings he witnessed something that will be the clue to unraveling the riddle of the forgetfulness potion? Perhaps he'll try something sneaky, be caught, and inadvertently divulge that key clue. * If we don't find out via Lockhart, does that mean we'll be visiting Neville's room before the school year begins, to see all those wrappers? Could be fun, but what other purpose could it serve? Usually Jo knits a few useful bits together before she takes us somewhere new. * This theory assumes that Fudge already knows that LV is a genuine threat, yet cares more for his career than for both the Longbottoms and the protection of the WW. But perhaps he has simply been in denial, proverbially sticking his head in the sand when it comes to LV. And perhaps when it becomes clear in HBP that LV has returned in full force, Fudge will be the one to finally see the light and make things right by the Longbottoms. Doesn't feel any better, but he is a cipher, that Cornelius. I do hope you're right with this one--it would be a most satisfactory wrap-up to the Longbottom subplot. No obvious holes yet, so enjoy the high seas while you can! --boyd Drawn out to comment on a memory theory?!? Must be losing my touch. Nice job, Neri. :) From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Fri Jun 17 16:00:43 2005 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:00:43 -0000 Subject: HBP contest predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130882 All of the following (except for for #5!) will be defunct after 7/16. All in good fun :o) 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I wish it were Hagrid (yes, I'm evil and horrible, I know), but I feel that there's a strong chance that it could be McGonagall (which will make me die). Her whole being stunned in OotP and the emphasis places on her age and ability to recover made me quite, quite nervous. The thing about Dumbledore dying is that Harry is ridiculously unprepared to fight right now and I hope that he'll take up teaching Harry occlumency and any number of other cool Jedi master tricks. I don't doubt him kicking it in the last book, however. McGonagall dying would be more of a spur to the rest of Hogwarts. The rest of the school doesn't have the same relationship with Dumbles as Harry & Co. do. Her dying would be more of a personal shock to students and would create a line of demarcation -- also, Harry has gotten by a lot of things because of her interference: Quidditch, the Nimbus 2000, her taking up of the Make Harry An Auror crusade -- how will he fare out from under her protective wing? Head of Gryffindor house dead, will the house members (and her students in other houses, for that matter) regather and cling closer to Harry's leadership characteristics? Will the Gryff/Slyth divide become more pronounced? Would Harry become even more distrustful of Snape? Even if that all isn't dealt with right away, I think that her death would be appropriately devastating and inciting. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Salazar Slytherin...maybe. There's too much that was mentioned in the second book that was never mentioned again, and I think (like many others) that the story of the founders will play a more important role in this book (as it does seem that it could've been expanded on in CoS, but was kept to basics to stick with the Chamber storyline) 3. What is Lily's big secret? That she had green contacts after all. Oh dear. This is really the thing I have the least inkling on. If the basin on the HBP cover is a pensieve, and is hers, than we're looking for something that she would've had in her own memories. That doesn't entirely rule out something about her heritage (as the memory could be someone telling her), but I'd venture to guess that the secret which we'll find out first hand from her pensieve has something to do with Halloween 1981 at Godric's Hollow -- JKR has said that the first chapter of HBP was something that has been written since the beginning...I can see this having to do with Lily. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Not Snape, Not McWhooziwhat...I'd love to see Bill step up, or Kingsley for that matter -- I want to believe that the DADA teacher this year will not be evil, but will, along the lines of Lupin, help prepare Harry for his impending battle. A seasoned Auror could teach him a lot...but I wouldn't put it past Dumbledore to have something entirely unexpected up his sleeve. (I feel like the "cursed" aura of the job is lessened a bit after Umbrage...granted, she probably will never be able to take a peaceful walk around the horse-and-buggies of Central Park South, but she was a terror and I can see a bit more of an applicant eagerness to avenge her general stupidity.) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I believe that overall in the series, Harry and Hermione will be together. Whether it happens in this book or the next is a damn fine question. The thing I feel about this book is that this is where Harry will undergo the "apotheosis" stage of the hero's journey where he must embrace something which he is not in order to become more complete ('divine') and thence be prepared for the final battle. I believe that Hermione is the compliment to his character: her logical/female vs. his emotional/male...they aren't opposites to the point where they aren't in frictional opposition, but their traits, when combined make for a wholeness which was foreshadowed with the forming and running of Dumbledore's Army. I believe that this book will mark the beginnings of the impetus to their relationship -- on the back cover of the UK HPB jacket, the boat seems to be banked next to a steep stone wall which I feel indicates the space pictured as being the inside of a cave. Apotheosis in the hero's journey takes place in a symbolic womb (as the hero must be reborn into his completeness) which is usually depicted as a deep water, a temple or a cave. I don't believe that Hermione will be in the room with Dumbledore and Harry (as it seems they are looking over the same basin in the US cover as is pictured in the UK), but I believe that the whole book will be Harry's preparation, his training, his becoming more complete. A burgeoning relationship with Hermione would fall into this theme. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones -- she's been a minor character but with just enough oomph to be featured (i. e. Cho in PoA, Cedric in PoA). With the hints we've been getting of a book which is not as dark as OotP, a cooperative and competent Ministry would really go a long way in making Harry's preparations more viable. Jo's done the 'incompetent government' thing in OotP; I know she's said that things will get worse for Harry, but I believe that those 'worse things' will be more personal while his public life will become more smooth. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Pensieve seems the logical answer, and if it is, it's Lily's. The canon-picker part of me wants to see it as some kind of receptacle for Dumbledore teaching Harry about the potent magic of Dragon's Blood, but I'm being rather far-fetched there. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes -- perhaps one of the last 'favors' he receives from McG? If he's in Advanced Potions, I would most certainly venture to guess that it was a push by McG. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes -- and he will have earned it on his own. I can most certainly see Neville blooming in this book...there area couple of things which could unfold in his storyline: finding out about his role in the prophecy, finally getting the reassurance he needs from a fantastic Potions O.W.L. score and doing quite well in Snape's class... 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? How many classes did he take? 9? The only OWLs I can see him failing are Divination, and possibly Astronomy and History of Magic (quite extraneous circumstances, yes?) So I'm going for at the most 8, and at the least 6. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Parseltongue will make a reappearance. We haven't seen any of it since the second book, and for this link between Harry and Voldemort to simply be used as a one-time plot point instead of being mentioned again is rather curious. 2. The DA will continue and the DADA professor may even be cooperative and help out a la Lockheart's dueling club with a lot less stupidity. 3. We will find out about Snape's timeline in relation to what he knew and when (i.e.: Did he find out that Peter was the spy while they were both in the Death Eater inner circles the year before the Potters' death (as the rest of the DEs in Azkaban did)? If so, why did he implicate Sirius in the Shrieking shack?) 4. Hogwarts function as a place of refuge will be made clear (Dumbledore hires Trelawney right after she makes the prophecy; Dumbledore hires Snape roundabouts the time he was revealed as a spy at Karkaroff's trial; Dumbledore hires Firenze after he is shunned to the point of threatened death by the other centaurs...) 5. Harry will not grieve over Sirius in the beginning of the book, but will be too busy (shortest stay at Privet Drive) to actually mourn for him, and will at some lull in action be very forcefully confronted with his grief. Longwindedly, Stefanie From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 17 15:45:55 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:45:55 -0000 Subject: Harry had to fail - Harry's Tragic Flaws In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130883 "jenzajlp" wrote: > I'm not saying that his outbursts in > Umbridge's class were unwarranted, > because, she is a evil little troll, > but it was not the smart thing to do. I disagree. Harry was being brave when he confronted Umbrage in class, I think that is beyond dispute, but even though it caused him injury I don't think Harry was being a fool because it had to be done. If he had not then Umbrage's lies would have gone unchallenged and the class would figure she must be telling the truth and Harry was not only a nutcase but a cowardly nutcase. As it is Cho thought him very brave and I'm sure she wasn't the only one. "jenzajlp" wrote: > Sirius, Lupin, Hermione, AND Dumbledore > who all stressed the monumental importance > of learning Occlumency. And not one of them explained clearly exactly why it was so monumentally important or why he should willingly put his life in the hands of Snape, somebody he dislikes and distrusts, or why his wonderful Occlumency lessons make him weaker not stronger. "jenzajlp" wrote: > I give you Neville as an example, who has > had his share of tragedies and has never > pulled the "You don't understand/Woe is me" > card that Harry pulled with his friends > on multiple occassions in OotP. Neville's way of dealing with life's unfairness is to develop very low self esteem, Harry deals with it in a much more productive way, he gets mad and tries to change it. I might add that we don't really know what Neville is thinking because there is only character we have direct access to inner thoughts and feelings, Harry; for all the other characters we have to infer what they are thinking from their actions; Rowling never says Neville thought X or felt Y. "jenzajlp" wrote: > What happens if, as I predicted earlier, > Harry's arrogance and short-temper > alienate his friends? If it alienates his friends then they weren't very good friends because the worse thing Harry did was raise his voice a few times and then apologies a few seconds latter; Ron did far worse with less reason and for a much longer time in book 4 and yet Harry is still his friend. Eggplant From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 16:51:45 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:51:45 -0000 Subject: Neville's sufferings/ Problematic comparison? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130884 Alla wrote earlier: > > > > Oh, absolutely. I love Neville. > > Said all that, I cannot even compare his sufferings and Harry's, > > although I will concede that Neville comes the closest to Harry in the amount of misery he went through. Neville did not have Dursleys in his life though, although yes, he did have that wonderful uncle of his. :-) > > Hickengruendler: > I find it very problematic to compare people's sufferings anyway. IMHO, Neville has suffered more than enough. True, he did not have to live with the Dursleys, but he does live with a grandmother, who tells him regularly that he is not as good as his father. Alla: Oh, I agree that Neville had more than enough and yes, usually I think it is problematic to compare people's sufferings. The only reason I run with it is because I found the initial comparison to be problematic - Neville also suffered, he does not pity himself. But I agree with the responce that we don't really know what Neville thinks about it anyway. Nevertheless, sometimes I don't find it problematic to compare characters sufferings ( not RL people). The best example would be Ron. Now, I like Ron, I really do, but when he starts complaining how bad his life is , I cannot help myself but wanting to tell him to stop now. He has his issues, absolutely, but I don't think that he had it as bad as Harry did, not even close. Yes, so back to Neville. I agree that his Gran hurts his self esteem badly, but as you said, she loves him and I do hope that she would see the light eventually. Unless of course we will learn that she is ESE! :-) Just my opinion, Alla. From k.coble at comcast.net Fri Jun 17 15:06:47 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:06:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I'm presenting "Snape's Appeal in Canon: Severus, Meet Sherlock" at this fall's Harry Potter Symposium in Salem!!! In-Reply-To: <42B261FE.1040402@telus.net> References: <42B261FE.1040402@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130885 On Jun 17, 2005, at 12:39 AM, Kathryn Jones wrote: > unicorn_72 wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivienne_davalon" > > wrote: > > > > > >? > > >? > 1) The paper I am presenting is called "Snape's Appeal in Canon: > >? > Severus, Meet Sherlock"? and the summary follows: > > > ??? Kathy writes: > > ????? You made some very good comparisons and have some very good > points.? I > think there are some interesting differences in the writing of the > characters. > > 1.? Holmes himself wasn't the most interesting part of the stories.? > He > was merely the vehicle used to demonstrate the use of logic and the > "use > of the brain". > ???? Snape on the other hand is not a vehicle so much as an enigma. Katherine: As an ardent Holmesophile (my screen name and business name is Mycropht), I take issue with this. Holmes is very much the most interesting part of the stories, because he not only serves as the vehicle for clean logic and deduction but also was an enigmatic character in his own right, with super abilities and intensely crippling flaws. > > 2.? Holmes was not a cruel person.? He was simply not involved in the > lives of anyone including Watson. He appeared to have no discernible > need for anyone in his life, including his twin brother. Katherine: Moriarty had a twin. Mycroft (my most beloved character, obviously) was NOT Sherlock's twin. We first meet him in "The Greek Interpreter" Holmes laughed at my suggestion. "My dear Watson," said he, "I cannot agree with those who rank modesty among the virtues. To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate one's self is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate one's own powers. When I say, therefore, that Mycroft has better powers of observation than I, you may take it that I am speaking the exact and literal truth." ????? "Is he your junior?" ????? "Seven years my senior." ????? "How comes it that he is unknown?" ????? "Oh, he is very well known in his own circle." ????? "Where, then?" ????? "Well, in the Diogenes Club, for example." > > > 3.? Having read all of the Sherlock Holmes stories, I don't recall > ever > wondering what his home life was like, or what his family was like.? > It > was as if he was dropped fully formed on the earth.? He was very much > a > two dimensional character.? Watson had more humanity than did Holmes. > K: That was the point of Holmes, and a large measure of his success. He was coming to the page fully formed, without all of the traumatic orphanhood that had been so popular in recent literature (i.e. Dickens) His home life and relationships are broached in some degree through several stories. Especially through the lens of Mycroft. Katherine http://mycropht.blogspot.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 17:02:55 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:02:55 -0000 Subject: I HAVE GOT IT - Re: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130886 I have got it!!! I have it ... I have it!!!! Maybe I will get a promotion to MoM!!! I just occured to me, reading the prophecy for the 999th time. Drum roll... "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not.. and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." Think of this like the riddle of the Sphinx. *Riddle*, get it?? It does NOT say LV. It says DL. Think of the DL as something different than Tom or LV and you have it. (See DL post in my ramblings in post Message # 130215) The DL is *Death* or the power of death. It is bond to Tom when Tom becomes LV. The neither can live is Tom and Harry. But the one with the power is Harry. The DL is death. Thrice defied him might mean that the parents of both Harry and Neville have survived a near death 3 times. It follows that when Harry defeats *Death*, both he and Tom will be free. And this fits with Harry being a Christ symbol, because it is Christ that defeats the powers of death. Tonks_op From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 17:04:54 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:04:54 -0000 Subject: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (4 of 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130887 > Jen: Bravo, Neri! You deserve some sort of TBAY trophy (or a really > stiff drink) for tying together pretty much all the dangling > plotlines around the Longbottom torture, Pensieve Four, the > Crouches, Fudge....and need I go on? (The Veil, Neville, Gran--oh > wait--how does Trevor fit in all this?). Alla: Yes, yes, medal for Captain Neri. Can I jump on board of this one too? and ask questions at the same time? If indeed Longbottoms knew a secret of how to defeat Voldemort, does it mean that they knew what Harry had to do to defeat him or does it mean that Harry is not the only one who can defeat him and has the power Voldemort knows not? You said it involved meddling with Dark Arts, right? Who would be doing it? Crouch himself? Oh, and about Neville's memory problems. I loved how neatly you tied it up. I guess you don't share idea that Neville is scared of Snape because Snape was supposedly there when Longbottoms were tortured, since Neville was not there himself according to your theory. To tell you the truth, I do think that Snape scared Neville quite enough during the lessons to be his worst fear without adding chidlhood trauma to the mix, but for a while I found this idea to be quite attractive. :-) Jen: Hey, and Lupin doesn't have to be > ESE! Yes, I like it....." Jen stumbles around the dark bay, wishing > she'd thought to bring a jacket and some supplies for the long wait > until Hurricane Jo. Alla: Indeed. Alla, who hopes that there will be a day when she learns how to communicate properly with TBAY residents. :-) From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jun 17 17:05:36 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:05:36 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130888 Jen: > That doesn't answer the question of which Order member was supposed to be on guard the night Harry & Co. went to the MOM. I suppose that Order member was attacked and removed by the DE's prior to Harry's arrival. But we don't find out who it was in OOTP. Hmmm. Pippin: I don't think there's any canon that Order was still guarding the door, at least by the same means. It would have been useless and dangerous since Voldemort had become aware of the guard and how he was concealed. Pippin From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 17 16:38:42 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:38:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050617163842.63944.qmail@web26306.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130889 Geoff: Just looking at the relevant piece for a moment: "born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not.." Hells: For example, this part does not sound right to me, it is grammatically incorrect and flows very badly. It would look and sound much better if there was proper punctuation like her other prophesy did. Geoff: Surely it is not being suggested that you can take your own stored memory and actually alter it - amalgamating, modifying it so that it does not reflect the actual real events? Hells: I'm not suggesting that Dumbledore is modifying his own memory, just that he is showing Harry selected excerpts that he has meshed together. Dumbledore himself said that he used the pensieve to spot patterns. We know that memories can be manipulated and not just shown from beginning to end in order. In GoF chapter 30, We see an excerpt of a memory of Bertha Jorkins, and we also see Harry's face "change smoothly into Snape's". What I'm trying to say is not that he changed the memory, just that he didn't show Harry the entire prophesy, that he had edited some very sensitive stuff out. I would be interested to hear what other people think was in the prophesy that would be dangerous for Voldemort to know? --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PCcalling worldwide with voicemail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From historygrrl1 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 09:06:48 2005 From: historygrrl1 at yahoo.com (historygrrl1) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:06:48 -0000 Subject: HBP Predictions Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130890 I don't post often, but I feel moved to predict. > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy. He'll wind up serving as a tragic example of the dangers of blind obedience to unworthy authorities. > > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) A historical figure. Someone dead (but not Sirius, obviously). > > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Something to do with her relationship with her family/Petunia. > > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The lion guy. > > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I think Harry has been so traumatized by Sirius's death that it will either be a long time until he has a romantic relationship, or a very short time befoe he begins having a series of very short and emotionally fraught romantic relationships. His options are severely limited by interhouse tensions. He won't hook up with a Slytherin ever. With the exception of Luna, Ravenclaws are out because of the Cho/Marietta debacle. Luna is unlikely because he thinks she's nuts. He also won't get involved with Parvati (because he was such a dork at the Yule Ball), Hermione or Ginny (blames himself for putting them in danger and keeps his distance). There are other girls in Gryffindor, but we don't seem to hear about them when they're not dating Weasleys or playing Quidditch. This leaves the Hufflepuffs. Honestly, I don't see love in Book 6 for Harry. > > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? > > Amos Diggory > > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? > > It's the Half-Blood Prince's penseive. > > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. > > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. > > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Everything but History of Magic and Divination. > > 5 predictions: 1. Hagrid and Dumbledore continue to reach out to non-humans as potential allies. 2. Harry forms a closer relationship with Lupin. 3. Lupin reveals something important about Harry's parents. 4. Pettigrew reveals something important about Harry's parents. 5. Harry and Firenze discuss the prophecy. The discussion opens up new interpretations, but doesn't seem to offer Harry a more pleasant destiny. -Ellen From k.coble at comcast.net Fri Jun 17 15:13:24 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:13:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blonde wolves and ESE!Lupin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130891 On Jun 17, 2005, at 9:12 AM, tigerpatronus wrote: > Tiger Patronus: > Interesting thought, that. Lupin turns into a wolf because he is > infected with lycanthropy, but that doesn't mean that, if he became > an animagus, his animagus form would be a wolf. > > Generally, one's patronus and animagus forms are the same. K: How do we know this? I don't recall ever reading it or hearing it other than speculation. Harry's Patronus is the same as his father's animagus. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 17:48:17 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:48:17 -0000 Subject: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (4 of 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130892 > Jen: Bravo, Neri! You deserve some sort of TBAY trophy (or a really > stiff drink) for tying together pretty much all the dangling > plotlines around the Longbottom torture, Pensieve Four, the > Crouches, Fudge....and need I go on? (The Veil, Neville, Gran--oh > wait--how does Trevor fit in all this?). > Neri: No Trevor, sorry . I still wonder about him and also about the Mimibulus Mimbeltonia, but I simply didn't have enough details on Uncle Algie to play with, so I kept him in the thematic support, with an option to be promoted into the plot if some new details are added in the beginning of HBP. Another loose end I didn't manage to tie in is that tea that Neville had with Crouch!Moody in GoF. There are of course several optional ways to make it fit it into the ELKINS AVENGED, but everything I could think of involved at least as much assumptions as solved mysteries, so I let it lie for the moment. > Jen: > I need to re-read and see if there are any holes in the deck or > leaks below , but really, the idea of Fudge's involvement and > the Forgetfulness potion is both a very compelling plot-line and a > fitting, yet heart-breaking, theory for Neville's forgetfulness (and > it *is* described as "forgetfulness" when he receives the Remembrall > in PS/SS). And you've given perhaps my favorite thematic explanation > for the Longbottoms: Weak, pure-blood bunglers with hearts of gold > (my addition ). Well, except there's a teeny-tiny hole there in > that Gran describes them as 'highly gifted' in OOTP, but then what > would we expect her to say? Of course she wants to remember her son > as 'highly gifted' given his current condition. Neri: I should clarify that I don't think Frank and Alice were bunglers like Neville. I really don't see them passing auror training if they were (although Tonks apparently made it while bumping into every piece of furniture in the way). No, I think Crouch Sr. would have chosen only the best aurors for his (hypothetical) plan. The best and the most pureblood. I do see Frank and Alice as bunglers in a more metaphysical level. The Potters were killed by Voldy, but at least they had kept their dignity. The Longbottoms' humiliating situation is the ward probably has a symbolic meaning. Also, in sharp contrast with the Potters, the Longbottoms didn't manage to leave their son anything magical. This is also symbolic. The purebloods aren't necessarily blunderers, some of them are very powerful, but they're damaged in some deep way. There's also a Chekhov Rifle on the wall since GoF that hadn't shot yet (or most probably it did, but we weren't told about it yet): Crouch Sr. had authorized the aurors to use the Unforgivables. Fighting the enemy using evil ways must come with a grave symbolic price. Perhaps Frank and Alice were tempted to use the Unforgivables and are paying the price now. Neri From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 17 18:51:09 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:51:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: <20050617163842.63944.qmail@web26306.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050617163842.63944.qmail@web26306.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42B31B9D.30104@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 130893 Geoff: >"born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not.." > >Hells: >For example, this part does not sound right to me, it is grammatically incorrect and flows very badly. It would look and sound much better if there was proper punctuation like her other prophesy did. > > Sorry, but what about the grammar is incorrect? I know that "neither can live while the other survives" is a bit wonky (and likely deliberately so) but I'm not seeing any grammatical errors in the above quote. I agree a comma before "but" would be nice, but it's not totally necessary, so far as I see it. heather the buzzard From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 17 12:42:46 2005 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:42:46 -0000 Subject: Possible blonde moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > Lupin's a werewolf. The other three Marauders become animagi to keep > him company at full moon. OK so far. > > The other three can become their animal personae at any time they > like. Can Lupin join them, or is he restricted to his monthly visitor? > > In ohter words, is he both a werewolf and an animagus, or is it either/or? > > Deborah, who used to be a genuine blonde herself but is now mostly > metaphorical! I don't have the book in front of me right now but I'm pretty sure that werewolves can change from man to animal any time they want, it's just that at the time of the full moon they have no choice but to change. Hettiebe From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 15:10:07 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050617151007.1282.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130895 ...edited... FINWITCH wrote: It was a Weasley-prank-wand as Sirius never did cast any spells as I recall I remember Sirius casting an Accio Butterbeer in OoP after the attack on Arthur Weasley right after the Weasleys and Harry got to 12GP. Juli ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 17:23:34 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] I HAVE GOT IT - Re: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050617172334.85699.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130896 --- Tonks wrote: ...edited... >> The DL is *Death* or the power of death. It is bond to Tom when Tom becomes LV. The neither can live is Tom and Harry. But the one with the power is Harry. The DL is death. Thrice defied him might mean that the parents of both Harry and Neville have survived a near death 3 times. It follows that when Harry defeats *Death*, both he and Tom will be free. WOW wow wow... Love the theory Tonks. But I have a small question for you: If Tom frees himself from Voldemort, then he lives, right? but remember that the AK that bounced of Harry *killed* him, I think it killed the Tom inside Voldemort, so if Voldemort dies, then Tom can finally die and have some peace (in hell or heaven, I don't know). What do you think? Juli ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 21:18:42 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:18:42 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130897 >>Karen: >I keep reading about 'the good slytherin' and just wondered where this came from. Is it something Jo has said (I can't find anything) or is it just a myth?< Betsy Hp: It's a theory. One I've seen all around the various Harry Potter boards and blogs. I'm not sure how long it's been around but it gained a lot of weight after OotP and the Sorting Hat's song emphasizing unity. "For our Hogwarts is in danger >From external deadly foes And we must unite inside her Or we'll crumble from within" (OotP scholastic hardback pp.206-207) And then Harry *really* drove the message home with his tempting of fate (always dangerous for fictional characters to do ). "And it wants all the Houses to be friends?" said Harry, looking over at the Slytherin table, where Draco Malfoy was holding court. "Fat chance." (ibid p.209) Especially after we got a fleshing out of Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws through the DA club the time seems ripe for a "good Slytherin" to show him (or her) self. >>Karen: >If there is a good Sltherin, I think Viktor Krum is it. He comes from Durmstrang, which appears to be a school full of Syltherins - they are taught to use the Dark Arts, not just to defend themselves against them, their Headmaster is a Deatheater and they all naturally gravitated to the Slytherin table in the great hall. VK, however says many times that he likes Hogwarts and it's nicer than Durmstrang.< Betsy Hp: It's a theory. One I'd find particularly disappointing myself. (Of course I have high hopes Draco will be the "good Slytherin" so take this for what it's worth. ) For one thing Krum is not a Hogwarts graduate, for another he's not Harry's peer, and most importantly he's not a Slytherin. Karkaroff, as a friend of Snape, had his students sit with Slytherin, but Krum didn't seem to interact with any of the students, IIRC (except Hermione). I also take issue with the idea that all things dark and evil should be associated with Slytherin. It sounds to stereotypical to my mind, and it lays too much on the Slytherin doorstep, IMO. Slytherin wanted students far removed from the Muggle world (which was a threat to wizards and witches at the time of the school founding) and who had ambition and cunning. None of that reads as particularly evil or even overly dark to me. I can, however, see Krum maybe returning to Hogwarts (as a teacher? to woo Hermione?) and somehow being a good influence on some of the Slytherins. >>Karen: >I then wondered further as to what happened to SS after he threw his teddy out of the pram and stormed out of Hogwarts because the other founders kept insisting on admitting 'the wrong' sort of students.< Betsy Hp: Just as a point of order, it is by no means certain that Slytherin left because the other founders disagreed with his student choices, or that he disagreed with theirs. I know Binns says as much in CoS, but there's a bit of a contradiction in the Sorting Hat's song in OotP. The Sorting Hat says that, "Hogwarts worked in harmony For several happy years, But then discord crept among us Feeding on our faults and fears," (ibid pp.205-206) So there was fighting between *all four* founders. The "feeding on our faults and fears" suggests that whatever each founder was worried about grew to a paranoia. So perhaps Slytherin *did* start worrying about the presence of muggle-born students. But if all four founders were fighting that couldn't have been the only bone of contention. (Ravenclaw may have complained there were too many stupid students. Gryffindor may have protested there were too many cowards or timid students. I've no idea what Hufflepuff would have complained about, but I guess she found something. ) What we do know is that once Slytherin left it shocked the other founders into renewing their friendships. And the Sorting Hat does imply that Slytherin was missed. >>Karen: >Did he flounce off to Bulgaria where he could set up his own school the way he wanted? Are the Durmstrang students literally Slitherins? < Betsy Hp: It is an interesting theory that Slytherin formed Durmstrang. But since he did it after Hogwarts and not with the other founders, I can't see a Durmstrang student being a symbol of Hogwarts unity. Betsy Hp From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Fri Jun 17 21:23:55 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:23:55 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP Predictions Contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130898 > >5. Viktor Krum will transfer to Hogwarts for his last year > >Susan McGee, now in northern California Or how about Victor Krum becomes the new DADA teacher? He should already be finished with schooling at Durmstrang. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From alishak at spu.edu Fri Jun 17 21:34:17 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:34:17 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130899 Karen wrote: > This has been puzzling me for some time. As I understand it, the > whole point of everything DD did in OotP was to keep LV from learning > the remainder of the prophecy. After the battle in the MoM, LV knows > that the prophecy has smashed and the contents are lost. DD knows > that Harry has not got far with Occlumancy and that LV is aware of the > connection so can access Harry's mind. Why then does DD immediately > tell Harry the contents of the prophecy? Now LV can get it from > Harry's mind. If it was so important that LV didn't find out then why > not continue the "Oh dear the prophecy is smashed" line. If it's > suddenly not really that important that LV could access it from Harry, > why did DD have to stay away from Harry all year, leave him stewing in > ignorance all summer and allow a situation to develop that ended up in > the loss of one of the most important people in Harry's world? > > Any thoughts? > Alisha: I'm confused as to why DD's reasoning necessarily had to do with the prophecy. I'm operating without my books at hand, so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here. I thought that DD had said that he was avoiding Harry so that Voldemort wouldn't suspect that their relationship was any closer than the normal relationship between headmaster and student. DD was worried that if Voldemort knew the nature of their relationship Voldemort might use Harry to attack or "get at" DD. After their encounter in the MoM, DD has already shown Voldemort that he cares about Harry, so it is no longer necessary to avoid him. As for why DD isn't worried about Voldemort getting the prophecy, I think he assumes that Voldemort has quite enough on his hands recovering from the battle and whatever injuries he sustained from his brief possession of Harry, without trying to break into Harry's mind again just now. -Alisha From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 22:11:26 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:11:26 -0000 Subject: ELKINS AVENGED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130900 Boyd wrote: > > * I never liked the other memory charm theories--too messy, poor fit with > the themes, IMHO. This one, however, seems much tighter. Though I'm not sure > it is necessary to give Neville *any* memory issues of his own, given his > familial propensity for highbrow oddity. He seems more the byproduct of a > well-intentioned, but overly 1900's-era British pureblood household. And > he's just not that smart at some things. But, as you say, the rest appears > to float on its own. Neri: I don't have any real background in anything British, but I wondered about something: JKR mentioned in one of her interviews that she was given "Hons and Rebels" in her teens, and since then Jessica Mitford had been the biggest influence on her writing. She said she had even named her daughter Jessica after Mitford. Might this give us any insight into the role of old-fashioned well-meaning 1900' British household in the HP saga? > * Are you sure neither Gran nor Strout are in on the action? Perhaps Fudge > is exercising some Ministerial powers to gain their cooperation, no? > Although Gran may simply be quite detached, Strout innocently overlooking > the Devil's Snare seems a bit unreasonable. Neri: This is all possible, of course, but I was following my "keep it simple, stupid" policy regarding theorizing. Also, too many ESEs doesn't strike me as very elegant. If whenever you blindly throw a stone you hit an ESE, it takes the fun out of the game, IMO. But I'm quite open to any explanation that will manage to frame Gran or Strout in a convincing way. > * If we don't find out via Lockhart, does that mean we'll be visiting > Neville's room before the school year begins, to see all those wrappers? > Could be fun, but what other purpose could it serve? Usually Jo knits a few > useful bits together before she takes us somewhere new. Neri: I thought that, Gran being such a staunch supporter of Dumbledore, the new HQ of the Order might be in the Longbottom's house. It might even be called "Spinner's End", although I'd like this to be the far end of Knockturn Ally, as this is high in my list of magical placed to visit. > * This theory assumes that Fudge already knows that LV is a genuine threat, > yet cares more for his career than for both the Longbottoms and the > protection of the WW. But perhaps he has simply been in denial, proverbially > sticking his head in the sand when it comes to LV. And perhaps when it > becomes clear in HBP that LV has returned in full force, Fudge will be the > one to finally see the light and make things right by the Longbottoms. > Doesn't feel any better, but he is a cipher, that Cornelius. > Neri: We don't necessarily have to assume that Fudge ever agreed with Crouch's plan, or even knew much about it. I think the ELKINS AVENGED scenario would bang the loudest if he knows almost nothing, because this can leave Frank and Alice as the last people alive who really know how to vanquish Voldy. Fudge needs to know only enough to make him responsible. Perhaps he only knew that Crouch had some colossal failure that was connected with the attack on the Longbottoms, and he had made a deal with Crouch ? Fudge's silence in return to Crouch's supporting Fudge for the Ministry. Keeping the Longbottoms sedated may have been part of the deal, and it's this deal that Fudge has been hiding. Later, of course, he also had to hide that he was sedating the Longbottoms, and for that he had to silence Crouch Jr., so as usually with these cases one thing just led to another. Hmm. This has just gave me an idea: what if it was only Crouch Sr. who was sedating the Longbottoms all these years? After all, he also needed to hide the fact that he was keeping his son in his house. This would explain the seeming improvement in Neville's memory in the OotP year, when Crouch was dead. But it won't explain why Strout still has memory problems, why Frank and Alice aren't showing an improvement, and why would Fudge lose his job in HBP. As a whole, it's difficult to say how precisely the responsibility is divided here between Crouch Sr. and Fudge, but this only helps the theory. As Elkins noted in the MC symposium, flexibility is a hallmark of good speculation . Neri From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 22:17:18 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:17:18 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: <20050616081735.36302.qmail@web32704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130901 >>Betsy Hp: >But then suddenly, Sirius takes a deep dive into toxic-adult land, that to my mind is just not explainable by, "I've been in this house for a WEEK, a WEEK I tell you! I've gone MAAAAD!!" >Sirius isn't just acting illogically. He's being incredibly cruel. To Harry. His attack is very specifically aimed at Harry. (I'm not an expert, but do depressed people generally lash out at loved ones like that?) >>Lynn: >It is obvious you are not an expert on depression and it appears that you've also been fortunate enough not to have had to deal with a clinically depressed person on a regular basis.< Betsy Hp: Oh, I'm not and I haven't. I hope I didn't come across as presenting myself as an expert! I do appreciate your insight. It makes the Depressed!Sirius a bit more palatable to me. However, I still have problems linking Sirius' behavior to being kept in the Black house alone. For one thing it puts him in a weaker (character-wise) position than Barty Crouch, Jr. Barty, though in Azkaban for less time than Sirius, was locked in a house he hated for a longer time, and was still emotionally stable enough to pull one over on Dumbledore right under his nose. There are such obvious parallels between Sirius and Barty (and their families), and I somehow think that JKR would have us see Sirius as the stronger, more resiliant, of the two. So I have a hard time believing that she'd have *only* the atmosphere of the Black House do Sirius in. Now, if Sirius had some sort of *inherited* mental imbalance that would fit right in with the gothic tale the House of Black so resembles. Whether that inherited weakness comes out as depression or alcoholism, I can take either one. They both lend themselves to the same symmetry, especially if it's something Sirius got from his mother. However, JKR may well be writing a mystery with a gothic flavor. (She so loves to mix her genres. ) In which case what first comes across as madness running through a family line could well have another source. Enter the Sirius is being poisoned theory. JKR certainly gives us some heavy hints along those lines. Much heavier than the drinking or the clinical depression, IMO. She gives us specific canon telling of plants that bring about exactly Sirius' behavior. And I've noticed as I've paged through OotP looking for canon that Sirius displays a definite rollar-coaster of emotions. First he's an excellent parental stand-in, holding off Molly and telling Harry what Harry should be told. Then he's horrid and cruel. Then he's back to giving Harry good, solid, advice. Then he's picking a stupid fight with Snape. Then he's quite mature in handling Harry's father-crisis. It's enough to give you whiplash. So the idea of someone deliberately tampering with Sirius' emotions makes sense to me. (I do doubt that the culbrit is Kreacher, however. For one, I imagine there's pretty strong magic preventing house-elves from poisoning their owners. For another, the poison is wizarding enough that it's studied at Hogwarts and house-elf magic always seems quite apart from wizard magic.) But in either case, there needs to be a reveal; the inherited problem is discovered or the mystery is solved. So I do expect that if there's more to the tragic story of Sirius Black we will learn about it future books. This could be done with the details of the prank (See! Sirius was mentally unstable even back then!) or with the discovery of the ESE!fill-in-your-favorite-name (Don't trust him/her! She/he poisoned Sirius!). Only JKR knows for sure. Betsy Hp, who'd be happy with either pure gothic or gothic mystery From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Fri Jun 17 21:48:38 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:48:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Transfiguration Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130902 I have another question - which probable has been asked before.. When Riddle was talking to Harry in the CoS, Riddle mentioned that Dumbledore during his time at Hogwarts taught transfiguration. McGonagall transforms into a cat, and I was wondering if Dumbledore transforms into anything? I suppose you don't need to in order to teach the subject....just curious if anyone had any thoughts on the matter. pot_of_harry From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 17 18:32:41 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:32:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: New Droobles Anagram? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050617183241.54055.qmail@web26303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130903 Tonks: > Maybe the DL is *something* else and these are the > bones that are needed to stop TR/LV. What do you think?? Hells: Maybe the DL it refers to is Grindelwald. His body may have been buried somewhere. Old bones appear to be powerful as LV demonstrated during his rebirthing. If there is a graveyard near Hogwarts, Snape might be able to use them in a potion to help defeat LV. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 22:38:29 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:38:29 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130904 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > I keep reading about 'the good slytherin' and just wondered where > this came from. Is it something Jo has said (I can't find anything) > or is it just a myth? > > ...edited.. > > Karen bboyminn: First some of us just logically conclude that regardless of what Ron and Hagrid say, all Slytherins can't be bad. Remember, we only see a very very few of them, and logically that's because they never cause Harry any trouble. So, by extension, most Slytherins while ambitious and cunning, are simply kids like any others, just trying to get throught school. Next, the Sorting Hat brought up the theme of the Houses needing to Unite. For that to happen, there has to be some Slytherins willing to join in. Most have speculated that Theodore Knot will be at least one of the 'Good Slytherins'. Here are some past links I found in one of my index files- Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:48 pm Subject: Switching houses http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/93350 Indirectly touches on the 'Good Slytherin' subject. Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:00 am Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91320 Nice long thread that touches on several aspects of the latest book including the Good Slytherin. Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:43 am Subject: Re: The Good Slytherin - Stringy & Weedy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/84984 Discusses who likely candidate are for the Good Slytherin. Subject line refers to the books describing one Slytherin as 'weedy' and another one as 'stringy'. Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:22 am Subject: What the Sorting Hat REALLY Said, and The Good Slytherin. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/84899 Discussion of whether Harry said he wants to be Gryffindor or if he simply said 'not Slytherin'. Additional thought on the Good Slytherin. Started with a discussion of the Sorting Hat and how it works. Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:27 pm Subject: Thestrals and Slytherins http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71039 Starts as a discussion of the 'stringy' Slytherin who could see the Thestral and quickly switches to this title "Good Slytherin (Was: Re: Thestrals and Slytherins)". Hope that helps. Steve/bboyminn From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 22:54:38 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:54:38 -0000 Subject: I HAVE GOT IT - Re: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: <20050617172334.85699.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130905 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > WOW wow wow... Love the theory Tonks. But I have a > small question for you: If Tom frees himself from > Voldemort, then he lives, right? but remember that the > AK that bounced of Harry *killed* him, I think it > killed the Tom inside Voldemort, so if Voldemort dies, > then Tom can finally die and have some peace (in hell > or heaven, I don't know). What do you think? > Tonks: Yes, I agree that Tom probably died that night at GH and what is left is his connection to the DL in the form of LV. Also thinking about all of this it has occured to me that maybe these books are JKR's therapy. Jungian Therapy. And what was she dealing with? The death of her mother. So while the books are good vs. evil, they are even more the story of the ancient magic of *LOVE* over the ancient evil of *Death*. So we are going to see Love over Death, and the defeat of the DL. LV is only one manifacation of the DL, because of the *thing* that TR did. What Tom did was to somehow connect himself with the DL. But Tom is NOT the DL. The DL was there before Tom came along. If you read what I copied about the DL in my proir post, there is something that the DL (Death) gives his followers and that is what Tom received when he made his *deal*. I also think that when an author writes we see parts of their subconcious mind. It is sort of like bearing your soul to the world. I think that a Jungian therapist would see a lot in her writing that tell the internal stuggles of JKR as well as weaving an exciting story. Sometimes therapist do instruct their clients to write stories. So who knows.. who knows?? What I am sure of now is that the story is about the power of Love over the power of Death. And the DL is death. Tonks_op Auror and Investigator From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Fri Jun 17 10:14:37 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:14:37 -0000 Subject: SPOILER - (Images in Bloomsbury Screen Saver!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130906 S P O I L E R S P A C E saieditor: > I took screenshots of both the screensavers. With the Clasped Hands > and Ring, I took a screenshot > > > Hmm, I did some cloning to make the join look a bit more like a proper > join without a crack, and you can see the results in the Files > Section, HBP-Ring, joined-cloned.jpg > > That image is just some quick work to make things clearer. >> Took a look at the ring and happened to be flicking through OoP...maybe the ring is the "large golden ring bearing the Black crest" (pg 117 UK version - I think) that Sirius was taking off Kreacher...the one he threw into the sack when cleaning the drawing room...just a thought? not sure about the wall... I thought there might be a face in the green glow, and the reflection looks like there is someone or something in the boat... who knows? po_of_harry From slmuth at hotmail.com Fri Jun 17 19:41:11 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:41:11 -0000 Subject: New Droobles Anagram? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130907 > > Tonks: > Now I am a bit confused here. I thought that LV didn't have a body > to dig up? That it evaporated or something at GH. > According to LV, he was "ripped from his body" (GOF 653) so I think it's still a mystery as to whether anything was left or not. > >I have had this > theory that the DL is someone or something else than TR/LV. You may > have read my post on it in message 130215. > > Would this theory fit with any of this? Maybe it isn't TR/LV's > bones we need. Maybe the DL is *something* else and these are the > bones that are needed to stop TR/LV. What do you think?? > Could be. The DEs all seem to use "Dark Lord" rather than any of the other names. I guess in that case though you have to work harder to find a reason why the bones of this other DL entity might be involved. Janeway From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 17 23:10:43 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:10:43 -0000 Subject: SPOILER - (Images in Bloomsbury Screen Saver!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pot_of_harry" wrote: S P O I L E R S P A C E > > > pot_of_harry: > Took a look at the ring and happened to be flicking through > OoP...maybe the ring is the "large golden ring bearing the Black > crest" (pg 117 UK version - I think) that Sirius was taking off > Kreacher...the one he threw into the sack when cleaning the drawing > room...just a thought? > > po_of_harry Seusilva pointed out this quote a few pages back, and I posted about it (and what it suggests plot-wise to me) in message 130645: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130645 I am thinking that the ring is the Black family ring at the moment, mostly because it is the only real clue I have! I think the fact that JKR mentions this ring so particularly, and shows that Kreacher has saved some things may be important... I think the picture on the ring looks like a serpent on a shield, but it really is too fuzzy to tell. JLV xx From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 23:11:20 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:11:20 -0000 Subject: Vampire!Snape (was:Re: I'm presenting "Snape's Appeal in Canon...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130909 >>KarentheUnicorn: > Another reason, Vampire folk. I hope some of you don't get offended by this comment, but some Vampire lovers and Gothic types have turned him into their posterchild. Some protest with much anger at you when you tell them you don't think Snape is a vampire, talk about biting your head off! I am personally one who hope he is not a vampire, simply for the fact, the whole vampire thing is just...too overdone now adays in my opinion. It seems Snape being a darn wizard is not enough for some, he has to be a vampire also....sorry, I'm ranting now, but anyway, for me personally, if JKR turns Snape into a vampire, I will be sourly disapointed.< Betsy Hp: I had the same reaction to the idea of Vampire!Snape as you do, Karen. It all seemed a little silly and overly complicated to me. But then I read some posts (starting with this post here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/adaptor/7969.html ) and slowly became a bit more open to the idea. I'm still not sure it'll turn out to be true. But some of the evidence is certainly thought provoking. First there's the vampire essay Lupin assigned after Snape's werewolf essay. And then there is Snape's fascination with Fake!Moody's foe glass. Plus there's that lip tracing thing he did in OotP, which struck me as a little odd. So, if Snape *is* a vampire will that mean he'll suddenly start wearing flowy poet shirts and compelling innocent young women with his intense gaze? I hope not, and I doubt it. Because if Snape is a vampire (or a half-vampire if he's the "half-blood" prince) this is a fact JKR has known about him the entire time. So his character won't change, we'll just get a little more insight into his motivations, etc. Because, yes, vampires have been overdone (and this from a huge "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" fan) but I trust JKR to handle vampires in her own unique way. Just as she's handled werewolves and centaurs and goblins. So hopefully it won't sour you to the character (if it's true at all). Betsy Hp From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Jun 17 23:13:58 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:13:58 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130910 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > >>Karen: > >If there is a good Sltherin, I think Viktor Krum is it. He comes > from Durmstrang, which appears to be a school full of Syltherins - > they are taught to use the Dark Arts, not just to defend themselves > against them, their Headmaster is a Deatheater and they all > naturally gravitated to the Slytherin table in the great hall. VK, > however says many times that he likes Hogwarts and it's nicer than > Durmstrang.< > > Betsy Hp: > It's a theory. One I'd find particularly disappointing myself. (Of > course I have high hopes Draco will be the "good Slytherin" so take > this for what it's worth. ) For one thing Krum is not a Hogwarts > graduate, for another he's not Harry's peer, and most importantly > he's not a Slytherin. Hickengruendler: I agree, there's a huge difference between being a Slytherin and being a Durmstrang. Durmstrang is a school in Eastern Europe, and despite of it's bad reputation, I think it's fair to say that many students, who go there, chose it for purely geographical reasons. Many students probably went there because it's closest to their home. It would be ridiculous if every student from the region would be evil, just because they attend the school. Although I must say that I also think that Viktor has a particular strong character for befriending a Muggle-born, in spite of being taught by Karkaroff and his prejudices all those years. Slytherin on the other hand is a house in Hogwarts. It has it's dark reputation, and if we believe Dumbledore when he implied in CoS, that the students are sorted not only by their ability, (although I do think this plays a part. The Sorting Hat never offered Harry to go to Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw, for example), but also by their choice, than we must see the Slytherin students as those who do not care about it's bad reputation, or at least not enough to reject the house, like Harry did. And what Harry IMO has to realize is, that in spite of this, those students can turn out to be okay as well. Just because someone chose the house with the worst history, does not mean he is scum as well. It would be awful if it means that 25% of the wizards population in Britain are irredeemably evil, just because they chose Slytherins when they were 11. And I'm sure JKR will address this as well, because she did not write "The Sorting Hat's New Song" for nothing. She even emphasized later during the conversation between the Trio and Nearly-Headless Nick, that the Slytherins should not be excluded, and she wrote that Gryffindor and Slytherin once had been friends. > I also take issue with the idea that all things dark and evil should > be associated with Slytherin. It sounds to stereotypical to my > mind, and it lays too much on the Slytherin doorstep, IMO. > Slytherin wanted students far removed from the Muggle world (which > was a threat to wizards and witches at the time of the school > founding) and who had ambition and cunning. None of that reads as > particularly evil or even overly dark to me. Hickengruendler: Slytherin also plotted to kill Muggleborn-Students and put a Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets. He basically helped killing Moaning Myrtle. Maybe we will learn in book 6 that everything was a big misunderstanding, and that he put the Basilisk only there for studying reasons, but until then I put him in the "evil" category, because what we know of him so far is pretty horrible, IMO. And I do not think that his possible fear of Muggles justify his actions, if they were really like they appear to be. Hickengruendler From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 00:19:56 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:19:56 -0000 Subject: Why is Ron allowed 2 friends at the World Cup? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130911 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nathaniel" wrote: > ... Why is Ron allowed to take two of his friends to the World Cup > and none of his many siblings are allowed to take any -- especially > considering Hermione doesn't even particularly like Quidditch? > > ... It seems unfair to me that Ron gets to bring both his best > friend and his second best friend, but no other Weasleys get to > bring anyone. I know Hermione is also friends with Ginny, but she > doesn't appear to be one of Ginny's best friends. Comments anyone? > > -Nathaniel (Natti) bboyminn: I haven't been following this thread to closely but I do want to make a few comments. First, consider the tickets themselves, and focusing on that one point, ask yourself why? These are TOP BOX tickets. The same seats at a muggle sports stadium would each be worth a king's randsom. Affordable only to Large Corporation, multi-millionaires, Kings, Presidents, and other high dignitaries. Yet, Harry and the entire Weasley family are right there with the Ministers from Bulgaria and the UK Minister of Magic. The answer is, it has to be Harry. Harry is a dignitary; he's the darling hero of the wizard world. Certainly, given how many ticket Arthur needed, if Harry hadn't been there, Arthur would have rated the worst seats in the house. But given Harry's presents and the good PR it brings to the Minister and the Ministry, and, let's not forget the favor Arthur did for Bagman, they all rate the premium seats. Certainly the Minister at that point would want to be seen with Harry Potter, and he would want to be seen as kind and friendly to Harry's friends. I won't do, at least not in Harry's eyes, to put Harry in the Top Box, and cram the rest of Harry's party down in the bleachers with the dregs of society. For Fudge, it's just a sound political move. To be associated and even friends with a hero, to be seen as kind and generous is all good public relations. So, to your question, Arthur got tickets because he helped Bagman out of a spot of bother. That in in itself isn't a big think. But the got THOSE specific premium seats simply because Harry was there and Hermione was allowed to tag along because she is Harry's best friend. In reality, I suspect that the ticket didn't cost anyone anything. These are probably part of a large block of courtesy or complimentary tickets that are given to the Ministry. The Ministry then in turn gives away the ticket to dignitaries, generous donors like Malfoy, and other people who palms or egos they want to grease. So, the actual /cost/ of the tickets isn't that important, but that doesn't change the fact that the tickets had /value/ and that value was indeed a king's randsom. Not sure if that helps. Steve/bboyminn From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 00:34:01 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:34:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (4 of 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130912 > Alla: > > Can I jump on board of this one too? > Neri: Sure thing! But better bring your life-belt, and perhaps I should warn you that the insurance won't be covering anything as long as the small craft advisory is still on (i.e., until the hurricane watch is over). > and ask questions at the same time? > Neri: Ah, yes. I have suspected that having a crew might mean *more* work, not less . > If indeed Longbottoms knew a secret of how to defeat Voldemort, does > it mean that they knew what Harry had to do to defeat him or does > it mean that Harry is not the only one who can defeat him and has the > power Voldemort knows not? > Neri: The way I imagine it is that Crouch Sr., or his research people at the DoM, discovered the key information needed to vanquish Voldy. They uncovered the technical part of it, but they didn't realize that it wouldn't work without Harry. Perhaps Crouch and DD had a fallout because Crouch hinted that he has a plan, but DD wouldn't be a part of it, since he knew that only Harry can vanquish Voldemort, so Crouch never told DD the details and decided to continue alone. But this part of the theory is certainly very vague, and I'll welcome any ideas. > You said it involved meddling with Dark Arts, right? Who would be > doing it? Crouch himself? > Neri: The Dark Arts part might be the veil. Although the veil itself doesn't strike me as evil, using it for executing people might very well be. As to who would be doing it, Sirius said in GoF that Crouch was "a great wizard powerfully magical", but still I don't see him doing all this personally. Crouch was an institution person. He would have issued orders while aurors and unspeakables would have done the dirty work. Neri From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 17 20:50:35 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:50:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Yet another prophecy question In-Reply-To: <42B31B9D.30104@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20050617205035.81808.qmail@web26309.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130913 > heather the buzzard wrote: > > "born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will > > mark him as his equal but he will have power the Dark Lord > > knows not.." heather the buzzard: > Sorry, but what about the grammar is incorrect? Hells: It just doesn't read right to me. The "... and" parts sound incorrect to me. I don't understand why the entire prophecy is written as on long run on sentence, there should be far more punctuation. From white_owl at earthlink.net Fri Jun 17 23:39:31 2005 From: white_owl at earthlink.net (Sarah L Gales) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:39:31 -0600 Subject: HBP Predictions Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004901c57395$d064de80$f01ee404@gales> No: HPFGUIDX 130914 > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Ginny doing something brave > > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) The new DADA teacher. > > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and > > full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She really didn't love James or some other family secret. > > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Somebody new that we don't know of who is the half blood prince. > > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Nobody, his emotional state will hinder him. > > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? > > Umbridge > > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? > > Harry's new penseive. > > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. > > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No > > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Everything but History of Magic, Divination and astronomy. > > 5 predictions: 1. Hagrid and Dumbledore continue to reach out to non-humans as potential allies. 2. Harry forms a closer relationship with Lupin. 3. Harry has another encounter with some sort of magic at the Dursley's and is taken to Grimmauld Place. This could be either magic around him or caused by him. 4. Everyone tries to force Harry to talk about Sirius and Harry doesn't want to talk so Ginny will tell him off and eventually that will strengthen their friendship. 5. More will be revealed about Snape such as why he left the Death Eaters and how he came to be a Hogwarts' Professor. Sarah Who is new to the group. From kjones at telus.net Sat Jun 18 01:44:23 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:44:23 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I'm presenting "Snape's Appeal in Canon: Severus, Meet Sherlock" at this fall's Harry Potter Symposium in Salem!!! In-Reply-To: References: <42B261FE.1040402@telus.net> Message-ID: <42B37C77.1090708@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130915 Katherine Coble wrote: > > On Jun 17, 2005, at 12:39 AM, Kathryn Jones wrote: > > > unicorn_72 wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivienne_davalon" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) The paper I am presenting is called "Snape's Appeal in Canon: > > > > Severus, Meet Sherlock" and the summary follows: > > snip > > > Katherine: > As an ardent Holmesophile (my screen name and business name is > Mycropht), I take issue with this. Holmes is very much the most > interesting part of the stories, because he not only serves as the > vehicle for clean logic and deduction but also was an enigmatic > character in his own right, with super abilities and intensely > crippling flaws. > > > > > 2. Holmes was not a cruel person. He was simply not involved in the > > lives of anyone including Watson. He appeared to have no discernible > > need for anyone in his life, including his twin brother. > > Katherine: > > Moriarty had a twin. Mycroft (my most beloved character, obviously) > was NOT Sherlock's twin. We first meet him in "The Greek Interpreter" > Vivienne snip Kathy writes: I bow to your greater wisdom. It has been a few decades. (snicker) I suspect that,(of course not knowing your age) the interest or lack of it in Holmes as a person might have something to do with whatever ages we were when we were first involved with the stories. I expect that children reading Harry have a completely different take on Snape than we do. KJ From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 02:33:02 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 02:33:02 -0000 Subject: Blonde wolves and ESE!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130916 > > On Jun 17, 2005, at 9:12 AM, tigerpatronus wrote: > > Generally, one's patronus and animagus forms are the same. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > K: How do we know this? I don't recall ever reading it or hearing it -> other than speculation. > Harry's Patronus is the same as his father's animagus. > Tiger: You know, I think you're right about it not being necessarily in the books. I know I've deduced it, or it's at least highly suggested. >From the following JKR quotes, you can see that she correlates them though, I agree with you, I have not found a case where someone both is an animagus and can conjure a patronus. TK -- TigerPatronus AOL Chat w JKR 19 Oct 2000: Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality? JKR: Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach! JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004: kelly_holland: When you turn into an Animagus, can you choose what animal you become? Or does this get "assigned" to you? JK Rowling replies -> No, you can't choose. You become the animal that suits you best. Imagine the humiliation when you finally transform after years of study and find that you most closely resemble a warthog. Sunday 15 August 2004 J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival: What form does Dumbledore's Patronus take? JKR: Good question. Can anyone guess? You have had a clue. There was a little whisper there. It is a phoenix, which is very representative of Dumbledore for reasons that I am sure you can guess. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 02:39:23 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 02:39:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Transfiguration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130917 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pot_of_harry" wrote: > > I have another question - which probable has been asked before.. > > When Riddle was talking to Harry in the CoS, Riddle mentioned that > Dumbledore during his time at Hogwarts taught transfiguration. > McGonagall transforms into a cat, and I was wondering if Dumbledore > transforms into anything? I suppose you don't need to in order to > teach the subject....just curious if anyone had any thoughts on the > matter. > > pot_of_harry I have a rather outlandish hypothesis about this. I've wondered if DD is either part Demiguise or transforms into one. According to "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them," a Demiguise is "able to make itself invisible when threatened, and can be see only by wizards skilled in its capture...The whole body is covered with long, fine, silky, silvery hair...pelts are highly valued as the hair may be spun into Invisibility Cloaks." (page 9) Support: DD has said he does not need an invisibility cloak to become invisible (forgive me for not citing text); also, DD seems to be able to see through Invisibility Cloaks; his hair and beard appear to meet the description Against: DD had auburn hair when he was younger; I don't think he is a registered animagus or Hermione would probably have mentioned it (speculation) Alternate explanation for ability to see through invisibility cloaks: he is skilled in catching a Demiguise, so he knows how to look for them (beasts and cloaks) Any thoughts? Julie From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 02:57:25 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 02:57:25 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130918 Okay, my brain is fried. But let me think. Now why do we have to keep the prophecy secret from LV? Surely by now he's figured out that Harry is the one he needs to worry about? Okay, he doesn't know Harry has powers he knows not. But by now he must realize Harry is a worthy opponent. Or does he just feel Harry has escaped all these times through dumb luck. (which is a good theory really) I'm wondering if indeed those "....and"'s in the prophecy do hide something. Why did DD let Harry hear the whole prophecy? Isn't DD worried that LV will be able to read Harry's mind and know it too? Couldn't DD just have pulled out the part of his memory to put in the pensive that he wanted Harry to hear and left the rest? Off topic. Lupin cannot be evil IMO. I really think he is next to die. He's too tragic a character and doesn't have a real role to fill anymore, except to add to Harry's misery by dying. Got to go. Help me if you can. Bonnie From chspnll at aanet.com.au Sat Jun 18 03:00:41 2005 From: chspnll at aanet.com.au (saieditor) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 03:00:41 -0000 Subject: SPOILER - (Images in Bloomsbury Screen Saver!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130919 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pot_of_harry" > wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > P > A > C > E > > > > > > pot_of_harry: > > Took a look at the ring and happened to be flicking through > > OoP...maybe the ring is the "large golden ring bearing the Black > > crest" (pg 117 UK version - I think) that Sirius was taking off > > Kreacher...the one he threw into the sack when cleaning the drawing > > room...just a thought? > > > > po_of_harry > > Seusilva pointed out this quote a few pages back, and I posted about > it (and what it suggests plot-wise to me) in message 130645: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130645 > > I am thinking that the ring is the Black family ring at the moment, > mostly because it is the only real clue I have! I think the fact > that JKR mentions this ring so particularly, and shows that Kreacher > has saved some things may be important... > > I think the picture on the ring looks like a serpent on a shield, > but it really is too fuzzy to tell. > > JLV xx --------------------------------------- JLV I think you are right, it is a bit fuzzy. And it *could* be a serpent on a shield. I have enlarged the ring to 300 dpi and taken a screenshot - it's in the same folder in the files section HBP Ring, full-screen.jpg its quite fuzzy on the top right there, but you know, it could well be a serpent. I was somewhat thinking this ring had something to do with Lily, but the issue of the Black Shield or Crest on a ring Sirius wrenched from Kreacher is probably a good canon for the ring's heritage. saieditor From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 03:36:21 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 03:36:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure /Depression/Paralles with Barty Jr. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130920 > Betsy Hp: > Oh, I'm not and I haven't. I hope I didn't come across as > presenting myself as an expert! I do appreciate your insight. It > makes the Depressed!Sirius a bit more palatable to me. > > However, I still have problems linking Sirius' behavior to being > kept in the Black house alone. For one thing it puts him in a > weaker (character-wise) position than Barty Crouch, Jr. Barty, > though in Azkaban for less time than Sirius, was locked in a house > he hated for a longer time, and was still emotionally stable enough > to pull one over on Dumbledore right under his nose. > > There are such obvious parallels between Sirius and Barty (and their > families), and I somehow think that JKR would have us see Sirius as > the stronger, more resiliant, of the two. So I have a hard time > believing that she'd have *only* the atmosphere of the Black House > do Sirius in. Alla: I am confused now. Are you saying that if out of two people who underwent through similar tragic circumstances only one person had depression as result of those circumstances, that makes such person to be the person of weaker character than the other? If this is indeed what you are saying, allow me to strongly disagree with such statement. Depression has NOTHING to do with one's strength of character, absolutely nothing. It is an illness, that is all. Right, so back to canon. I don't see many parallels between Barty Jr. and Sirius in a sense that Barty had just as many grounds to get depression as Sirius did. Sure, Barty Sr. seems to be quite strong authority figure, but he also appears to be somebody who loved his son ( after all, he indeed got his son out of Azkaban) No, I don't have a high opinion of him, but I don't remember any canon evidence which shows that his son hated his home life as a child (he joined DE true, but do we know for sure why?), and we have strong evidence that Sirius in fact did, so he may have had depression as a teenager as Lynn speculated as result of his home life. Oh, and even if I were to concede that there are strong parallels between Barty Sr. and Sirius, which I don't ( I see some, but not that many), I would indeed argue that JKR shows us Sirius as MUCH more resilient out of two. Sirius managed to get away from his family at sixteen, while Barty joined Voldie and Co as young man. So, if I were to judge who is more resilient , my answer would definitely be Sirius. Just my opinion, Alla. From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Jun 18 01:40:59 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:40:59 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > I keep reading about 'the good slytherin' and just wondered where > this came from. Is it something Jo has said (I can't find anything) > or is it just a myth? I am making my first post as urged by the list elf. I would like to see the theme of a "good Slytherin" principle developed before the end of the books. It is the one thing that has struck me as lacking. There ought to be a high, as well as a low, expression of the Slytherin type, just as there is among Gryffindors. Something like the the two expressions of Scorpio--the Scorpion and the Eagle. If there is a correspondence between the Hogwarts houses and the four elements, Slytherin would be water. Houyhnhnm From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 18 04:05:30 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:05:30 -0500 Subject: Snape as father figure, was Sirius as Father Figure References: Message-ID: <009001c573ba$f8158b80$3659aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130922 Alla: > There are SO many people starting with > Dumbledore who attempt to provide Harry with gudance. There are SO > few adults who attempt to love Harry for himself. I differentiate "providing Harry with guidance" and "loving him for himself" pretty cleanly. Read on. > I wish he would have such person in his life and NO, Dumbledore's > declaration of love was not impressive much for me. > > Maybe Remus will step up to the plate Let's stir the anthill. (Assuming, of course, someone has not already done so; my email is woefully slow to download and I'm far behind. I want to respond and get to bed, so I may miss some bit of brilliance that came later.) Father figures =/= love, necessarily. I think the one that Harry will grow closer to--and please note I do *not* say love, or even like--is Snape. Snape and Harry are the ones who need to see each other for themselves, and not for the emotional associations they represent. Snape has been a consistent male authority figure from day one. He represents a critical aspect of "father": the authority, the disciplinarian, the existing Power whose standards and restrictions the child rebels against. He's the father who won't listen; who doesn't seem to care; who sets rules and allows no excuses; whose rules seem to be arbitrary and mean; who is *always there.* Snape is the aspect of father that a child appreciates after he is grown. When the value of discipline and limits are appreciated; when the ability to see multiple viewpoints has matured. Harry is only beginning to reach this point. I think he will come farther along this path in HBP. And so I think it is the relationship with Snape that will fill a certain emotional niche for him. Maybe not pleasantly; but effectively, like Snape himself. Snape and Harry, in my opinion, grew closer in OoP, and not one whit warmer. There is a tremendously strong bond between them, which grew stronger through OoP, and which neither of them seems inclined to break. It is a bond of emotion, and although the emotion is hatred, it is a bond nonetheless. Neither of them will release one iota of that emotion; they remain embedded in each other. The subjectivity of this bond gets very in the way of them appreciating, or truly seeing, each other. I think Snape holds to his hatred for a reason; while it's real enough, I think it also helps with a smokescreen he must maintain for his role. The times we have seen Snape lose control--for Snape is quite controlled--have been with respect to James and Sirius, not Harry (for I consider Snape's reaction after the Pensieve scene to be to James, not to Harry). Snape finds it convenient, and easy, to keep hating Harry, but I don't think there's real passion there. So Snape is able to have a degree of objectivity towards Harry; it allows him to teach Occlumency to him, and it allows him some effectiveness as a father figure. Harry, on the other hand, has not had one belief to date about Snape's actions that was not entirely Harry-centric. And his scapegoating of Snape after Sirius' death is an active resistance to objectivity. I think that as Harry grows older, and finds himself in more and more challenging situations where there is not one "right" answer or clear path, he will begin to appreciate that there may be more than one reason and motivation. And as soon as he admits to himself that Snape may have some non-Harry reason for his actions, I think he will begin to realize how valuable (I do not say pleasant) the lessons he has learned from Snape really are--but we have not seen this potential in Harry yet. He is clinging to the bonds he has--and one of the strongest, most enduring, and most defining is his negative bond with Snape. Objectivity would threaten that, and Harry needs as much of his world to stay the same as he can hold, right now. So the likelihood of him recognizing, much less appreciating, Snape's role are low, in my opinion. Which puts Harry at risk, emotionally, and Snape at risk, plotwise. Because the last aspect I mentioned of Snape as a father figure--that he is always there--is something that Harry hates. But it, and Snape, are constants of his world. When Sirius goes through the gate, it is the fact that Sirius does not answer--is not *there* for him--that brings home his loss. If Harry had to realize that Snape was no longer there, I think the loss and shock would be as great. It would not be a hole defined by love; but it would be a tremendous hole--the disappearance of someone who represented such a large investment of emotion over so long a time. The loss of Snape would devastate Harry. I suspect it would take something that catastrophic to shock Harry into a different view of Snape. Heh. ~Amanda From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jun 18 04:31:17 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:31:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as father figure, was Sirius as Father Figure In-Reply-To: <009001c573ba$f8158b80$3659aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: <000801c573be$92779c60$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130923 Amanda Father figures =/= love, necessarily. I think the one that Harry will grow closer to--and please note I do *not* say love, or even like--is Snape. Snape and Harry are the ones who need to see each other for themselves, and not for the emotional associations they represent. Snape has been a consistent male authority figure from day one. He represents a critical aspect of "father": the authority, the disciplinarian, the existing Power whose standards and restrictions the child rebels against. He's the father who won't listen; who doesn't seem to care; who sets rules and allows no excuses; whose rules seem to be arbitrary and mean; who is *always there.* Snape is the aspect of father that a child appreciates after he is grown. When the value of discipline and limits are appreciated; when the ability to see multiple viewpoints has matured. Harry is only beginning to reach this point. I think he will come farther along this path in HBP. And so I think it is the relationship with Snape that will fill a certain emotional niche for him. Maybe not pleasantly; but effectively, like Snape himself. Sherry now: i completely disagree with the idea that the authority role is the one the child remembers and appreciates when he grows up. The authority figure, if not tempered by love as well, would be remembered as harsh, cruel and even abusive. I dearly love my stepmother, and she was very hard and very much the authority when she was married to my dad. But I don't remember those things about her. I remember that she comforted me when I had nightmares, took me to all my doctors appointments, listened to me when I had heartbreaks, defended me fiercely when people made fun of my disability. Yes, i remember her being tough, strict and all the rest. But the reason I still love her and consider her to be mom even though she and my dad divorced over 30 years ago, is because she loved me and taught me that some love could be trusted. If the only bond Harry has with Snape is the one of authority, yes, someday, when he matures, he may understand Snape better, but I seriously doubt he will see him as any kind of father figure. There is nothing to temper Snape's abuse. He has no liking or warmth for Harry. He is so wrapped up in his immature hatred of Harry due to who Harry's father was, that he can't be the right kind of authority figure. If Dumbledore hadn't screwed up so much in OOTP, he would still be the true father figure to Harry, I think. The two of them, Harry and Snape, will have to learn to work together, I think, but I don't see either of them looking back on it with fondness or understanding later. A true father figure would have authority and love which would be the most balanced thing for a child. I realize you did say it wouldn't necessarily be a warm relationship. i just think that Snape's kind of authority is the absolute wrong kind and isn't something Harry will appreciate when he's an adult. Sherry From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 18 04:35:18 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 04:35:18 -0000 Subject: FILK: Harry and You-Know-Who Again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130924 Harry and You-Know-Who Again To the tune of Everything Old is New Again, by Peter Allen Dedicated to Ravenclaw Bookworm You can hear a rather wan MIDI at: http://www.hamienet.com/cat11595.html At the 7th month's middle We'll learn some more about Thomas Riddle They're straight from Jo Rowling's pen Both Harry and You-Know-Who again (Dumbledore) peers long inside his odd Pensieve Who''ll teach us Dark Arts Defensive? Our orders we'll get at Borders, when It's Harry and You-Know-Who again Bring back our Hermy, Weasleys & Wormtail Some ships sinking, while others sail There's rumors that someone ends up dead But that's wrong ? or so Jo said Oh, upon that magic day DEs battle the fierce DA Fate must pursue again Both Harry and You-Know-Who again Bring back our Snapey, our Crabbe & our Goyle Call out the half-blood they say is royal We'll take Draco Malfoy's detour And see things that once were obscure Upon that magic day DEs battle the fierce DA Let's all meet at Spinners End With Harry and You-Know-Who again! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated 6/12/05 with 100 new filks) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 04:42:27 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 04:42:27 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure, was Sirius as Father Figure In-Reply-To: <009001c573ba$f8158b80$3659aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130925 Amanda wrote earlier: > Let's stir the anthill. > Father figures =/= love, necessarily. I think the one that Harry will grow > closer to--and please note I do *not* say love, or even like--is Snape. > Snape and Harry are the ones who need to see each other for themselves, and > not for the emotional associations they represent. > > Snape has been a consistent male authority figure from day one. He > represents a critical aspect of "father": the authority, the disciplinarian, > the existing Power whose standards and restrictions the child rebels > against. He's the father who won't listen; who doesn't seem to care; who > sets rules and allows no excuses; whose rules seem to be arbitrary and mean; > who is *always there.* And as > soon as he admits to himself that Snape may have some non-Harry reason for > his actions, I think he will begin to realize how valuable (I do not say > pleasant) the lessons he has learned from Snape really are--but we have not > seen this potential in Harry yet. >If Harry had to realize that Snape was no longer there, I think the loss and shock would be as great. It would not be a hole defined by love; but it would be a tremendous hole--the disappearance of someone who represented such a large investment of emotion over so long a time. The loss of Snape would devastate Harry. I suspect it would take something that catastrophic to shock Harry into a different view of Snape. Alla: Hmmm, I remember last time we had discussion about Snape as father figure in Harry's life and I concede that he can be seen as a "rule enforcer" plot wise - unfair, arbitrary, but rules enforcer nevertheless. I am sorry, I still cannot call him father figure, even simply as his plot function - I understand it on the intellectual level, but simply cannot make myself to do so :-). To me - he is the one who abuses Harry on the regular basis and I am uncapable to call child abuser ( which is of course my opinion and my opinion only) a father figure for such child. But I think you are going further than simply analysing Snape's plot function, right? You are arguing bond between them on the emotional level, correct? What can I say? It is indeed possible that Snape became constant in Harry's world in a negative sort of way, but I honestly doubt that Snape's loss would devastate Harry, IF nothing would change between them till the end. So, Harry would be surprised that somebody who hated him for so long is not here anymore. I think he would get over such surprise fast enough, or at least I hope so ( that is if Harry himself survives of course). So far, the only valuable lesson ( IMO only) which Snape gave to Harry is NOT to be like him , NOT hold grudges against dead people and especially their kids, NOT become bitter at the world,and at least try to forgive, if not your enemies than at least their children, who really did not do anything to you. I suppose those kind of lessons ARE valuable indeed ( I am not being sarcastic here) To conclude, I see what you are saying in the general kind of sense ( and it does not come as a surprise to me - I have read some of Snape as Harry's father fanfiction ), but I think that Harry deserves REAL kind of father figure, the one which would love him, NOT hate him, even if such bond of hatred is one of the stable things in Harry's life so far. Just my opinion, Alla. From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 18 06:12:24 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 06:12:24 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130926 > >Karen: > >If there is a good Sltherin, I think Viktor Krum is it. > Betsy Hp: > It's a theory. One I'd find particularly disappointing myself. (Of > course I have high hopes Draco will be the "good Slytherin" Karen again: Isn't it interesting the way people can read the same thing differently? I love it! Now I would personally be disappointed if Draco was the 'good Syltherin' (not that I'm hanging out for it to be Krum btw - Nott or someone not in Draco's 'inner circle' would be acceptable to me!) I would take a lot of persuading that Draco had changed his ways - to me it would seem like he was taking a leaf out of his father's book: presenting a respectable face to the world whilst in private continuing to be an evil git. > I also take issue with the idea that all things dark and evil should > be associated with Slytherin. It sounds to stereotypical to my > mind, and it lays too much on the Slytherin doorstep, IMO. > Slytherin wanted students far removed from the Muggle world (which > was a threat to wizards and witches at the time of the school > founding) and who had ambition and cunning. None of that reads as > particularly evil or even overly dark to me. Karen again: not in and of itself no, I'd certainly agree with you on the above point, but what about incorporating a secret chamber, presumably at the time of the castle's initial construction (it would have been very hard to do it secretly later, surely?) for the express purpose of concealing a wacking great bassilic for the purpose of killing muggle-borns. This certainly shows and extremely dark and evil aspect of SS's character to me. > Betsy Hp: > Just as a point of order, it is by no means certain that Slytherin > left because the other founders disagreed with his student choices, > or that he disagreed with theirs. > "Hogwarts worked in harmony > For several happy years, > But then discord crept among us > Feeding on our faults and fears," (ibid pp.205-206) > > So there was fighting between *all four* founders. But if all > four founders were fighting that couldn't have been the only bone of > contention. (Ravenclaw may have complained there were too many > stupid students. Gryffindor may have protested there were too many > cowards or timid students. I've no idea what Hufflepuff would have > complained about, but I guess she found something. ) Karen again: Again I read this differently. I read it that SS objected to any but pure bloods being admitted and the other 3 'ganged up on him', if you like, to insist that muggle-borns were also worthy of a place. As long as they were brave and true they were OK by GG. As long as they were very clever they were OK by RR. HH was the most enlightened as she belived anyone who showed magical ability was welcome. There may have been some discord as to what type of muggle-born was acceptable but I believe the catalyst was SS's pure-blood mania. Karen From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 18 06:47:39 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 06:47:39 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore & Registered Animagus was Re: Dumbledore and Transfiguration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130927 Julie wrote: > I don't think he is a registered animagus or Hermione would probably > have mentioned it (speculation) Karen I have a theory on this and it is that Hermione said she looked it up in the library and there had only been x (sorry not got book to hand) number if animagi registered this centuary. Dumbledore, however, is about 150 years old so I think that he was registered *last* centuary so Hermione didn't see him in her book. Karen From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jun 18 07:47:16 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:47:16 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure, was Sirius as Father Figure In-Reply-To: <009001c573ba$f8158b80$3659aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130928 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Snape has been a consistent male authority figure from day one. He > represents a critical aspect of "father": the authority, the disciplinarian, > the existing Power whose standards and restrictions the child rebels > against. He's the father who won't listen; who doesn't seem to care; who > sets rules and allows no excuses; whose rules seem to be arbitrary and mean; > who is *always there.* I am going to agree with Sherry and Alla (good job the both of you, btw), Snape isn't that kind of father figure for one reason. The kind of tough uncompromising father that kids grow up to respect and understand do what they do out of love. they want their children to grow up strong and disciplined so they enforce that discipline until the child is ready to enforce that discipline on themselves. I grew up with a father like that. My dad was an ex-military prison administrator. He ran his home like a prison ward and could smell trouble at fifty paces. And I got off relatively easy because I wasn't his daughter! When I was a teen I hated my father and we had a terrible relationship. I didn't understand what he was trying to do. I'm older and wiser now and I see more clearly. He might have been an ass sometimes, but he was an ass that had my best interest at heart and in the end I am better off for what my father did. Snape doesn't have Harry's best interest at heart. He isn't being hard on Harry for any other purpose other than being hard on the son of his bully makes whatever passes for his heart a little lighter. thats what seperates Snape from what you're talking about. > Snape and Harry, in my opinion, grew closer in OoP, and not one whit warmer. > There is a tremendously strong bond between them, which grew stronger > through OoP, and which neither of them seems inclined to break. It is a bond > of emotion, and although the emotion is hatred, it is a bond nonetheless. > Neither of them will release one iota of that emotion; they remain embedded > in each other. The subjectivity of this bond gets very in the way of them > appreciating, or truly seeing, each other. I actually agree with you here. I think there was the glimmer of a breakthrough between the two of them that is broken by actions on both their parts. Growing closer without growing warmer is a perfect way to describe it. Snape finds > it convenient, and easy, to keep hating Harry, but I don't think there's > real passion there. So Snape is able to have a degree of objectivity towards > Harry; it allows him to teach Occlumency to him, and it allows him some > effectiveness as a father figure. Nope, sorry. I don't buy Snape having anything close to objectivity towards Harry at all. Objectivity would allow him to see Harry as himself and not an extension of his father placed in Hogwarts for Snapes own amusement and torment. But something tells me we aren't ever going to quite see eye to eye on Snape :) phoenixgod2000 From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 18 10:16:19 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:16:19 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: Betsy Hp: > It's a theory. One I'd find particularly disappointing myself. (Of > course I have high hopes Draco will be the "good Slytherin" so take > this for what it's worth. ) For one thing Krum is not a Hogwarts > graduate, for another he's not Harry's peer, and most importantly > he's not a Slytherin. > > Karkaroff, as a friend of Snape, had his students sit with > Slytherin, but Krum didn't seem to interact with any of the > students, IIRC (except Hermione). > > I also take issue with the idea that all things dark and evil should > be associated with Slytherin. It sounds to stereotypical to my > mind, and it lays too much on the Slytherin doorstep, IMO. Geoff: Just in passing, I must admit that I have a sneaking wish that Draco might just turn back from the dark side of things..... However, my main comment is that, if we look on "good" as meaning turning away from the Dark Arts and working with the side of light, we do have a good Slytherin already. Much as I dislike the man, Snape fits this category already. He has turned his back on his Death Eater status and is obviously working for Dumbledore's side and facing a substantial degree of risk. The problem is that he carries all this off with such bad grace. Someone has remarked in a reply that just because a person chooses Slytherin doesn't make them scum. We need to remember that they didn't /choose/ the house, the Sorting Hat placed them there. They may have accepted this because, at the age of 11, they thought that this was what Hogwarts wanted and couldn't be altered; so I wonder how many incoming pupils over the years have challenged the Sorting Hat's thinking as Harry did? From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 18 10:24:41 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:24:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as father figure, was Sirius as Father Figure References: <000801c573be$92779c60$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <000a01c573ef$f1bb7760$d558aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130930 Sherry: > > i completely disagree with the idea that the authority role is the one the > child remembers and appreciates when he grows up. I didn't say "the one" anywhere. I don't think there is any one man in these books who is a complete father figure to Harry. I think Snape is one of many; most of the adult men with whom Harry has contact represent, I believe, various aspects of the male parent. For Harry, those aspects are much more discrete than for most of the rest of us. He can have his negatives associated with Snape; his respect and admiration associated with Dumbledore; his affection associated with Arthur Weasley; etc. What I was saying, was that I think his relationship with Snape is going to be the one that develops further, and that I doubt he will allow himself to recognize it or its importance to him. Alla: > To conclude, I see what you are saying in the general kind of sense > ( and it does not come as a surprise to me - I have read some of > Snape as Harry's father fanfiction ), but I think that Harry > deserves REAL kind of father figure, the one which would love him, > NOT hate him, even if such bond of hatred is one of the stable > things in Harry's life so far. I wasn't making a commentary on what Harry deserves; I was talking about what Harry's got. I don't disagree with you, but a "real" father figure is not what Harry has now, at least not rolled into one person. ~Amanda From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 18 10:34:47 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:34:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as father figure, was Sirius as Father Figure References: Message-ID: <001301c573f1$59e32c60$d558aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130931 Phoenixgod: > Snape doesn't have Harry's best interest at heart. He isn't being > hard on Harry for any other purpose other than being hard on the son > of his bully makes whatever passes for his heart a little lighter. > thats what seperates Snape from what you're talking about. With all due respect--we can't say that in certainty from canon. We know next to nothing about Snape's motives. I think it likely that Snape does have Harry's best interest at heart--if only because Harry is central to the winning of the conflict that is now the heart of Snape's existence. I give you all the point: there is no love for Harry there--but I believe a respect is growing, that Snape will be better prepared to acknowledge than Harry will. See my earlier post (which I sent before this one downloaded, don't know what's up with the email)--Harry has many father figures who each fill part of the role. Phoenixgod: > I actually agree with you here. I think there's a 12-step program for that available. :) > I think there was the glimmer of a > breakthrough between the two of them that is broken by actions on > both their parts. Growing closer without growing warmer is a perfect > way to describe it. Thanks. I really think that was one of the more brilliant plot devices JKR has come up with, the Occlumency lessons, because it allowed such information exchange without any of the "getting to know you" emotions or development usually associated with learning such things about each other. ~Amanda From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Jun 18 11:26:50 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:26:50 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > Someone has remarked in a reply that just because a person chooses > Slytherin doesn't make them scum. Hickengruendler: I think you meant my post. But that's not really what I said. I said that choice wasn't the only reason why the students are sorted into a particular house, as we can see with Harry, since Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff never seemed to be an alternative. But nonetheless choice does play a part, IMO, and the students, who went to Slytherin, obviously went there despite it's bad reputation and it's bad history. They do not seem to care enough about this to reject the house, and what Harry has to learn, IMO, is, that that doesn't make them bad people. They could have completely legitime reasons not to be appaled by the house's history or to choose the house despite of this, for example because all their family members went there or because they are very ambitious people. You said that Harry questioned the Sorting Hat. But IMO he did not. He went there thinking "Not Slytherin", and the Sorting Hat than answered to his thoughts. I don't think he was the only student, who had heared about Slytherin's bad reputation and went to the Hat, thinking, "I hope I'm not a Slytherin". Sure, the Sorting Hat then teased Harry and said that he could have been powerful in Slytherin, and then Harry rejected his words, but I'm still sure he's not the only student to do so. In fact, this simplistic thinking like "I still don't want to go there, because I don't want to be evil" is rather typical for children. Hickengruendler From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 18 12:11:17 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:11:17 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130933 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > > > > Someone has remarked in a reply that just because a person chooses > > Slytherin doesn't make them scum. Hickengruendler: > I think you meant my post. But that's not really what I said. I said > that choice wasn't the only reason why the students are sorted into a > particular house, as we can see with Harry, since Ravenclaw and > Hufflepuff never seemed to be an alternative. But nonetheless choice > does play a part, IMO, and the students, who went to Slytherin, > obviously went there despite it's bad reputation and it's bad history. > They do not seem to care enough about this to reject the house, and > what Harry has to learn, IMO, is, that that doesn't make them bad > people. Geoff: Perhaps I, in turn, did not make myself clear. I was thinking of pupils, like Harry, who are coming from a Muggle background and, for whom, Slytherin membership carries no baggage. After all, the only reason Harry knows anything about it is what Ron has told him during their conversation on the journey. He could easily have reached the school ignorant of the house's reputation and been sorted into it. Hickengruendler: > You said that Harry questioned the Sorting Hat. But IMO he did not. He > went there thinking "Not Slytherin", and the Sorting Hat than answered > to his thoughts. I don't think he was the only student, who had heared > about Slytherin's bad reputation and went to the Hat, thinking, "I hope > I'm not a Slytherin". Geoff: I think there is a difference between "Not Slytherin" and "I hope I'm not in Slytherin". The former seems more decisive. I still think that Harry did question the Hat. The Hat seems to think so.... 'Harry gripped the edges of the stool and thought,"Not Slytherin, not Slytherin." "Not Slytherin, eh?" said the small voice. "Are you sure? You could be great, you know, it's all here in your head and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that - no? Well, if you're sure - better be GRYFFINDOR!"' (PS "The Sorting Hat" pp.90-91 UK edition) Doesn't sound lke teasing to me..... From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 13:46:24 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:46:24 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure, was Sirius as Father Figure (FIGHT SCENE QUESTIONS) In-Reply-To: <000a01c573ef$f1bb7760$d558aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130934 > > Alla wrote : > > I wasn't making a commentary on what Harry deserves; I was talking about > what Harry's got. I don't disagree with you, but a "real" father figure is > not what Harry has now, at least not rolled into one person. > KarentheUnicorn reply: CANNON QUOTES BELOW if you haven't read OOTP or POA don't read my reply (hehe) I don't think anyone would disagree on what Harry needs or what Harry should have, it sounds like everyone is just simply arguing what the term Father Figure means, I believe their are many different examples that can be used to show a father figure. I personally do believe JKR is using many different Adult males in Harry's life to represent the different aspects of a father. That is personally just how I myself have read it and I believe a lot of people see that in the story as well. We could all obviously be very wrong, but it just plays out to us in that way. I myself view Sirius as more of the Cool Uncle figure, that relation who has been a little wild, might have a shady past or a background that any teenage boy would think is cool. I remember Harry bragging to Uncle Vernon(cannon Quote) "Godfather?" sputtered Uncle Vernon. "You haven't got a godfather!" "Yes, I have," said Harry brightly. "He was my mum and dad's best friend. He's a convicted murderer, but he's broken out of wizard prison and he's on the run. He likes to keep in touch with me though....keep up with my news....check if I'm happy..." Now, to me that's classic teenager stuff! (laughs) I've got a really bit tough uncle and he's going to beat you up. The only reason I maybe don't see it as Father is because, Sirius up till that point and in the next book is not really around Harry a lot on a day by day basis. Now, if we are using Snape as the other example for father figure, yes, I also do seem him as more of the authority father figure, that is the figure a lot of people see when they think of father. Now, I know people can use examples of their own life to twist this to their own point of view. But generally when dad says No, don't ask questions, if you do, you get the LOOK. Now, some people attribute the look only to mothers, speaking from experience, a father has the LOOK, and all of you that had a dad like mine will know exactly what I'm talking about, if you don't then sorry, I can't explain it to you, read more Snape and you will understand where we are coming from when we say, Snape is a father figure to Harry. I also have a somewhat curious though on something that happened in the OOTP and here is the cannon quote to example what I'm curious about. Scene, Harry is just getting told he is to take Occlumency with Snape, Snape is leaving and Snape and Sirius get into their usually agressive behavior towards each other. Snape Snarks at Sirius, Sirius snarks back. Snape snarks again, and Sirius becomes quite agressive. Sirius pushed his chair roughly aside and strode around the table towards Snape, pulling out his wand as he went; Snape whipped out his own. They were squaring up to each other, Sirius looking livid, Snape calculating, his eyes darting from Sirius's wand tip to his face. "Sirius!" said Harry loudly, but Sirius appeared not to hear him. "I've warned you, Snivellus," said Sirius, his face barely a foot from Snape's, "I don't care if Dumbledore thinks you've reformed, I know better--" "Oh, but why don't you tell him so?" whispered Snape. "Or are you afraid he might not take the advice of a man who has been hiding inside his mother's house for six months very siriously?" "Tell me, how is Lucius Malfoy these days? I expect he's delighted his lapdog's working at Hogwarts, isn't he?" "Speaking of dogs," said Snape softly, "did you know that Lucius Malfoy recognized you last time you risked a little jaunt outside? Clever idea, Black, getting yourself seen on a safe station platform...gave you a cast-iron excuse not to leave your hidey-hole in future, didn't it?" Sirius raised his wand. "NO!" Harry yelled, valting over the table and trying to get in between them, "Sirius, don't--" "Are you calling me a coward?" roared Sirius, trying to push Harry out of the way, but Harry would not budge. "Why, yes, I suppose I am," said Snape. "Harry--get---out--of--it!" snarled Sirius, pushing him out of the way with his free hand. Ok, lets see, where do I begin with these though and questions I have. Everyone says Harry is so much like his father, but, I see Lily all over this. Am I wrong? I also am wondering, OK, Harry hates Snape right, we can pretty much announce that as a given. So, why get in the middle of two grown wizards fight? When we would assume Harry would be, kick ass Sirius! OK, so maybe Harry is worried about Sirius getting hurt, but before this scene he notices that Sirius is rather taller than Snape, and right after that Harry notices Snape balling his fist over his wand, a sudden reaction to Sirius's approach, maybe even an action out of instinct. It is almost like Snape is the one more afraid than Sirius, and it seems to me Harry is noticing that right their. Ok, we all talk about how mean Snape is to Harry, yet, Sirius is the one Snarling at Harry and physically pushing on him, Snape is just mouthing off. Sirius is the first to yank out his wand...why is he so childish to let Snape provoke him so much with just words? A lot of what Snape says to Sirius is true. So Perhaps its just the way that Snape says it that offends us so much? Generally the old saying is the truth Hurts. Maybe Sirius just doesn't like the fact that its coming from Snape. Imagine if Lupin had of been the one to say Sirius you were seen you Idiot, what were you thinking. Sirius did screw up and he was not supposed be out in the open, he was seen by none other than Lucius Malfoy, we notice that Sirius is the one that calls Snape LapDog, he is also the one calling Snape names. Sirius is the one that asks are you calling me a coward, Snape simply says yes, I believe I am. I don't really see where Snape called Sirius any names at all. Sirius is the one being agressive throught the whole thing. If Snape is a bad father figure, then I also see Sirius as a bad father figure, though I do understand he was trying to protect Harry, Sirius also is letting what happened between him and Snape at school be just as much of a problem as Snape is. If Snape is holding a grudge then Sirius is also doing the same bloody thing, he doesn't seem to be able to get past what happened between them either. Yet, its easier to forgive Sirius I suppose... meh, they seem almost like the same character in some way. One coin, opposite sides, its still the same coin if you ask me, and its monitary value is still the same.....ok I'm getting really deep with that coin analogy...hehehe. But, to get right down to it, It seems like Harry may have been trying to protect Sirius, but he seems to notice things about Snape that leads me to believe he was protecting Snape....go figure. Karen From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 18 13:49:59 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:49:59 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure, was Sirius as Father Figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130935 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > But I think you are going further than simply analysing Snape's > plot function, right? You are arguing bond between them on the > emotional level, correct? > > What can I say? It is indeed possible that Snape became constant in > Harry's world in a negative sort of way, but I honestly doubt that > Snape's loss would devastate Harry, IF nothing would change between > them till the end. > > So, Harry would be surprised that somebody who hated him for so long is not here anymore. I think he would get over such surprise fast enough, or at least I hope so ( that is if Harry himself survives of course). > > So far, the only valuable lesson ( IMO only) which Snape gave to > Harry is NOT to be like him , NOT hold grudges against dead people > and especially their kids, NOT become bitter at the world,and at > least try to forgive, if not your enemies than at least their > children, who really did not do anything to you. > > I suppose those kind of lessons ARE valuable indeed ( I am not > being sarcastic here) > > To conclude, I see what you are saying in the general kind of sense > ( and it does not come as a surprise to me - I have read some of > Snape as Harry's father fanfiction ), but I think that Harry > deserves REAL kind of father figure, the one which would love him, > NOT hate him, even if such bond of hatred is one of the stable > things in Harry's life so far. > Pippin: It would be nice if Harry had such a father in the same way it would be nice if Voldemort gave up seeking world domination and decided to devote his energies to becoming all-wizard Gobstones champion, ie, it would give the characters something to cheer about and completely spoil the story from the reader's point of view. IMO, Harry's challenge is to grow into someone who could be a capable father himself despite having lost the good father he had in James. That means he has to winnow the good from the bad in all his father figures, Snape included. It's true that Snape doesn't love Harry -- but as every parent learns, parenting has to be done even when you don't feel loving, even when it's tedious, even when your kids remind you of everything you hate. Sirius was a great parent --when he felt like being one. When he didn't, he was almost as appalling as Snape. ::ducks rotten veggies:: A good father would be as loving as Sirius without the inconstancy, as constant as Snape without the cruelty, as affectionate as Arthur without the passivity, as proactive as Dumbledore without the distance -- you get the idea. If Harry never learns to appreciate Snape's constancy, the way that Snape kept trying to do what was asked of him despite his obvious dislike and unsuitablity for the task, then Harry will have failed to learn something he needs to know to be an effective parent. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 14:11:28 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:11:28 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure, was Sirius as Father Figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130936 Amanda: > Snape finds > > it convenient, and easy, to keep hating Harry, but I don't think > there's > > real passion there. So Snape is able to have a degree of > objectivity towards > > Harry; it allows him to teach Occlumency to him, and it allows him > some > > effectiveness as a father figure. Phoenixgod: > Nope, sorry. I don't buy Snape having anything close to objectivity > towards Harry at all. Objectivity would allow him to see Harry as > himself and not an extension of his father placed in Hogwarts for > Snapes own amusement and torment. Alla: Oh, yes. I think I have a question for Amanda, which I meant to ask yesterday. I mentioned it recently that prior to OOP I WAS hoping that whether Snape hated James or not, he did not really hated Harry, that he indeed can differentiate between two Potters, but does what he does to the boy for the reasons unknown to us yet - to help him prepare for Voldemort, or something like that... Did I like the means? Oh, definitely not, but I was at least prepared to cut Snape SOME slack in that area... You know, that maybe he indeed KNOWS that Harry is not James. In the post-OOP world, I am truly puzzled, Amanda, when anybody ( not just you) starts arguing that Snape can have ANY kind of objectivity towards Harry. I think Dumbledore pretty much spelled it out for us: "But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong" - OOP, paperback, p.833. Now, of course you can argue that Dumbledore is wrong here. I myself had argued that on several occasions, BUT then I think the fair asumption would be that Dumbledore can be wrong about the first part of the quote . You know, "I trust Severus Snape". If you don't argue that Dumbledore is wrong though, I think his words effectively foreclose ANY kind of objectivity that Snape can have towards Harry. I honestly think that Snape is incapable of being objective towards Harry and when he looks at him all that he sees is the copy of James with Lily's eyes. I can be wrong of course and believe it or not, I would LOVE to be wrong on this one. That is of course just my opinion, Alla From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jun 18 14:32:00 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:32:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as father figure, was Sirius as Father Figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001d01c57412$7d7cc750$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130937 Alla: I mentioned it recently that prior to OOP I WAS hoping that whether Snape hated James or not, he did not really hated Harry, that he indeed can differentiate between two Potters, but does what he does to the boy for the reasons unknown to us yet - to help him prepare for Voldemort, or something like that... snip In the post-OOP world, I am truly puzzled, Amanda, when anybody ( not just you) starts arguing that Snape can have ANY kind of objectivity towards Harry. I think Dumbledore pretty much spelled it out for us: "But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong" - OOP, paperback, p.833. snip If you don't argue that Dumbledore is wrong though, I think his words effectively foreclose ANY kind of objectivity that Snape can have towards Harry. I honestly think that Snape is incapable of being objective towards Harry and when he looks at him all that he sees is the copy of James with Lily's eyes. I can be wrong of course and believe it or not, I would LOVE to be wrong on this one. Sherry now: Thanks, Alla, for that quote. Without access to any of my books right now, I couldn't find it. What I'd like to see is that both Harry and Snape realize the consequences of their actions and their feud. And this in no way means I think Harry has any blame for the death of Sirius. In spite of what happened and losing my favorite adult character, i for one, felt very proud of Harry for being willing to risk so much to try to save Sirius. However, maybe both Harry and Snape can see that if they had learned to trust each other, at least, it might have been prevented. I don't mean a warm fuzzy trust, male bonding and all that, but a simple fact that Harry could trust Snape to do the right thing, when he appealed to him. I lay more blame on Snape for this because he is the so-called adult, even though he acts more immaturely than Harry. Harry and all the rest of us knew Snape hated Sirius. We also knew that Snape hated Harry. How on earth could Harry have believed Snape would help, when he had the vision? Of course, we know that Snape couldn't tell Harry he would take care of it with Umbridge right there, but Harry has had five years to learn that he cannot trust Snape, and of course, he can't risk the possibility that Snape might not help. If Snape had been truly objective toward Harry, there might have been a chance to keep the whole ministry fiasco from happening. And then of course the ending of the book would have been entirely different. So, if I had a wish for future Harry and Snape in the next two books, then it is that they need not like each other, but that they can learn to work with each other. Far too much is at stake now. Harry can tell Snape where to stick it when the war is over, and I'd love to see that, but for now, they *must* learn to work together. I hope that the events leading up to Sirius' death can show them both that they have to make some kind of change. Unfortunately, though Snape is the adult, I think it will be up to Harry to try to make the changes happen, because I don't know if even now Snape can put his enmity toward James aside long enough to see Harry for Harry and to realize how his treatment of the boy made Harry feel that he had absolutely nowhere to turn, noone to trust when he was so desperate. Sherry From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 14:59:55 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:59:55 -0000 Subject: HBP: stays with Dursleys... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130938 You know, about the little part JKR said about HBP being like the first part of one book... So - I think it may be that - after his shortest stay ever (leaving before the morning of 31st July; could be midnight as well) - Harry's NOT going back to them until the end (or the middle) of 7th book, when he defeats them. He could use Veritaserum or Legilimency or both to get Aunt Petunia to tell him all he needs to know... and then he leaves them and never looks back. Finwitch From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 18 16:25:08 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:25:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as father figure References: Message-ID: <002d01c57422$4bf3b4e0$b459aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130939 What IS the world coming to, I'm combining responses. (1) It was quite early this morning and I forgot to make another point to Phoenixgod's post. Phoenixgod quite neatly made my own point for me and I did not call it out. Phoenixgod: > The > kind of tough uncompromising father that kids grow up to respect and > understand do what they do out of love. The whole point is, the children in the equation don't necessarily see that. And we are seeing the relationship entirely through the child's eyes in this case. The motivating factor for the adult is almost immaterial, for to a child's perspective, all that matters or holds weight is the child's reasoning and the child's perception--which are not mature enough to have moved out of "victim" mode. > they want their children to > grow up strong and disciplined so they enforce that discipline until > the child is ready to enforce that discipline on themselves. And I submit that Snape wants Harry to be disciplined until he can grow to discipline himself. And Harry has shown Snape precious little evidence that he can. Nothing you have said so far is inapplicable to Snape; in fact, it's a really good summary of what I think Snape is trying to do. > When I was a teen I hated my father and we had > a terrible relationship. I didn't understand what he was trying to > do. This is Harry now. > I'm older and wiser now and I see more clearly. He might have > been an ass sometimes, but he was an ass that had my best interest > at heart and in the end I am better off for what my father did. This is where I hope Harry will allow himself to be mature enough to achieve. > Snape doesn't have Harry's best interest at heart. And this is the part I answered in my earlier post. Basically, (a) we don't know that, and (b) even if we did, *Harry* is not mature enough to understand what Snape is trying to do. (2) Okay, Alla's turn. She (she?) said she was asking me a question and then instead stated an opinion. I'll do my best. Alla: > In the post-OOP world, I am truly puzzled, Amanda, when anybody ( > not just you) starts arguing that Snape can have ANY kind of > objectivity towards Harry. > > I think Dumbledore pretty much spelled it out for us: > > "But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too > deep for healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his > feelings about your father - I was wrong" - OOP, paperback, p.833. > > Now, of course you can argue that Dumbledore is wrong here. I myself > had argued that on several occasions, BUT then I think the fair > asumption would be that Dumbledore can be wrong about the first > part of the quote . You know, "I trust Severus Snape". > > If you don't argue that Dumbledore is wrong though, I think his > words effectively foreclose ANY kind of objectivity that Snape can > have towards Harry. I don't think Dumbledore's wrong at all. I don't think Snape can overcome his feelings about James. Dumbledore didn't say "Snape can't overcome his feelings about *you* because you're James' son"--he said "about your father." I argue that Snape exhibits objectivity towards Harry -- as an example, during the Occlumency lessons--especially after Harry "breaks into" Snape's thoughts and sees some of Snape's memories. Harry, typical for his perception, braces for a very personal response and instead meets a very professional one. An objective one. Snape's reaction after the Pensieve is an old and powerful reaction to James. I think he would have thrown *anyone* out of his office who saw that. It probably didn't help a damn bit that it was Harry--in fact, I saw this as a betrayal of trust. Snape didn't remove his memories, lock them in a cabinet, and set a spell on it. Snape is extending a trust to Harry to behave like an adult and respect his limits--which Harry does not do. Harry does not live up to Snape's expectations and behaves like a child, peeking where he knew he was not wanted (and, if he were paying attention, where he should have known might result in danger to himself and others). And lastly, I think we are wrong to infer that Dumbledore knows everything that happened with Harry, Snape, and the Pensieve. My personal thought is that Snape did not tell Dumbledore what happened, because I can't imagine Dumbledore would not have told Harry how wrong that was. I think Snape just went to Dumbledore and said something like, "I'm sorry, every time I look at Harry I see James and I just can't handle it, I can't keep teaching him, it's giving me ulcers." I can't imagine Snape would want anyone to know any more about his private humiliation; it was clearly painful to him and I doubt he wanted to discuss it, even to the point of telling Dumbledore. SO, what Dumbledore says to Harry may well be based on incomplete information. Did that answer? (3) Now to Karen: > I myself view Sirius as more of the Cool Uncle figure, that relation > who has been a little wild, might have a shady past or a background > that any teenage boy would think is cool. I think this is a very good perception and quite valid. And Sirius became the "wilder" one of the pair. In fact, Harry's relationship with Sirius underwent a little role-reversal in OoP, to where Harry was behaving more like the father, and Sirius more like the child chafing at restrictions. If Sirius' response to Harry in the fire was not the lashing out of a petulant child at a mean and obtuse authority figure, I don't know what it was. (4) And Pippin, lovely Pippin: > It would be nice if Harry had such a father in the same way it > would be nice if Voldemort gave up seeking world domination > and decided to devote his energies to becoming all-wizard > Gobstones champion, ie, it would give the characters > something to cheer about and completely spoil the story > from the reader's point of view. > he has to winnow the good > from the bad in all his father figures, Snape included. > > It's true that Snape doesn't love Harry -- but > as every parent learns, parenting has to be done even when > you don't feel loving, even when it's tedious, even when > your kids remind you of everything you hate. > A good father would be as loving as Sirius without the inconstancy, > as constant as Snape without the cruelty, as affectionate as Arthur > without the passivity, as proactive as Dumbledore without the > distance -- you get the idea. I have nothing to add. But this was so well stated I just had to cheer Pippin, and since I'm dutifully combining, I can surely add this onto the bottom of a substantive post. As I've said to friends--good parenting is not that you never want to throw your children out the window; it's not doing it when you feel like it. Superb parenting is when they can't tell you feel like it. Snape isn't a great father figure; but I think he quite effectively fulfills the minimum qualifications: looking out for the child; trying to keep the child safe until the child gets a clue; trying to give the child a clue; being present in the child's life to fulfill those ends. ~Amanda, premier Snapologist From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jun 18 16:42:38 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 16:42:38 -0000 Subject: Order Guard on that Fatefut Night (Re: Yet another prophecy question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130940 > Jen: > > That doesn't answer the question of which Order member was > > supposed to be on guard the night Harry & Co. went to the MOM. > > I suppose that Order member was attacked and removed by the > > DE's prior to Harry's arrival. But we don't find out who it was > > in OOTP. Hmmm. > Pippin: > I don't think there's any canon that Order was still guarding > the door, at least by the same means. > It would have been useless and dangerous since Voldemort had > become aware of the guard and how he was concealed. Jen: So you're saying after Arthur was attacked, the Order stopped guarding the prophecy room, at least under an Invisibility Cloak. That would mean Dumbledore was putting all his eggs in the Occlumency basket, a shaky project at best given the participants. It seems a dangerous idea to leave the area unguarded at night, not only due to the possibility of DE's and LV appearing at the MOM, but also Snape is only too aware that Harry still believes he's 'helping' the Order seeing these visions. Given Harry's track record, it's only a matter of time before he figures out where the corridor and door are and makes his way to the DOM. So the door needs to be guarded for Harry's sake as well. But Pippin is right there's no canon for a guard that night. No one is missing by the end of the book, or at St. Mungos with the others. Dumbledore can make himself invisible, but if he were there the whole fiasco wouldn't take place. It just seems really risky not to back up the Occlumency with *something*. Jen From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 18 17:28:29 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:28:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order Guard on that Fatefut Night (Re: Yet another prophecy question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050618172829.27731.qmail@web26304.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130941 Jen: So you're saying after Arthur was attacked, the Order stopped guarding the prophecy room, at least under an Invisibility Cloak. It seems a dangerous idea to leave the area unguarded at night... Hells: Dumbledore said that he gave the MoM an excuse as to why Arthur was down in the DoM. His excuse must have been good because Arthur didn't get any official backlash from it. I think he got the ministry to stand guard or place additional security measures, after all they wouldn't want people to know that a huge snake nearly killed a staff member in the MoM. The Order wouldn't be necessary (or able) to continue the guard in this case. --------------------------------- How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 18:11:00 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:11:00 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore & Registered Animagus was Re: Dumbledore and Transfiguration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > Julie wrote: > > > I don't think he is a registered animagus or Hermione would probably > > have mentioned it (speculation) > > Karen > > I have a theory on this and it is that Hermione said she looked it up > in the library and there had only been x (sorry not got book to hand) > number if animagi registered this centuary. Dumbledore, however, is > about 150 years old so I think that he was registered *last* centuary > so Hermione didn't see him in her book. > > Karen Excellent point. So, what is your opinion of the DD/Demiguise connection, whether animagus, part heritage, or simply skilled hunter? Julie From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 18:19:02 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:19:02 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130944 > Amanda: (2) Okay, Alla's turn. She (she?) said she was asking me a question and then instead stated an opinion. I'll do my best. Alla: Yes, it was me. Sorry about that. I think my question was supposed to be is whether you are finding any signs of Snape's objectivity towards Harry in canon and then I indeed stated my opinion that I don't see any. Sorry for being unclear. Alla wrote earlier: > If you don't argue that Dumbledore is wrong though, I think his words effectively foreclose ANY kind of objectivity that Snape can have towards Harry. Amanda: I don't think Dumbledore's wrong at all. I don't think Snape can overcome his feelings about James. Dumbledore didn't say "Snape can't overcome his feelings about *you* because you're James' son"-- he said "about your father." Alla: Wait, wait a second. Dumbledore says that in direct response to Harry's accusations that Snape did not teach him Occlumency effectively, so yes I read this quote as "Snape could not overcome his feelings about James, and THAT IS WHY he could not teach you Occlumency effectively" In other words, Snape could not teach Harry because he could not overcome his feelings about James and transferred them on Harry ( You are just like your father, Potter...) I wonder did Snape seriously thought that Harry will go and tell his friends about what he saw in the Pensieve? If it is so, then I think Snape should have take a look at more memories of Harry's life. Again, I am not saying that other interpretation is not possible, it is just to me this one seems as an obvious. JMO, of course. Amanda: And lastly, I think we are wrong to infer that Dumbledore knows everything that happened with Harry, Snape, and the Pensieve. My personal thought is that Snape did not tell Dumbledore what happened, because I can't imagine Dumbledore would not have told Harry how wrong that was. I think Snape just went to Dumbledore and said something like, "I'm sorry, every time I look at Harry I see James and I just can't handle it, I can't keep teaching him,it's giving me ulcers." I can't imagine Snape would want anyone to know any more about his private humiliation; it was clearly painful to him and I doubt he wanted to discuss it, even to the point of telling Dumbledore. SO,what Dumbledore says to Harry may well be based on incomplete information. Alla: You are speculating that Dumbledore does not know about everything what happened on, right? ( I am not being sarcastic, I may have forgotten where it stated to the contrary in canon) and I love speculating, just want to be clear. Dumbledore says that he "knows about that", so I think it is possible that he indeed knows everything what happened during the lessons. And I don't know about him scolding Harry about looking into Snape's pensieve. Especially, if say Dumbledore used a little Legilimency on Snape and found out that he left it out on purpose in order for Harry to see how bad James really was to poor Severus. Yes, I am just speculating here too. :-) > Seriously though, Dumbledore had very mild reaction as to Harry looking into his Pensieve. "I'm sorry," Harry mumbled. Dumbledore shook his head. "Curiousity is not a sin," he said. "But we should exercise caution with our curiosity... yes, indeed" - GoF, paperback, p.598. So, I would think that even if Dumbledore knows everything that happened, his assesment of the situation is quite correct. Oh, one more thing. When I reread this quote from GoF, I SO wanted to slap Snape again. Harry apologises to Dumbledore right away for doing it, I think he would have done the same to Snape, if he would ... I don't know give him couple of minutes before throwing him out of the office. Amanda: Did that answer? > Alla: I cannot move closer to your interpretation, but at least now I sort of see how such intepretation can be made in the first place. Thank you. Just my opinion, Alla. From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 18:30:15 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius as Father Figure /Depression/Paralles with Barty Jr. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050618183015.12918.qmail@web54709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130945 > Betsy Hp: > Oh, I'm not and I haven't. I hope I didn't come across as > presenting myself as an expert! I do appreciate your insight. It > makes the Depressed!Sirius a bit more palatable to me. > > However, I still have problems linking Sirius' behavior to being > kept in the Black house alone. For one thing it puts him in a > weaker (character-wise) position than Barty Crouch, Jr. Barty, > though in Azkaban for less time than Sirius, was locked in a house > he hated for a longer time, and was still emotionally stable enough > to pull one over on Dumbledore right under his nose. > > There are such obvious parallels between Sirius and Barty (and their > families), and I somehow think that JKR would have us see Sirius as > the stronger, more resiliant, of the two. So I have a hard time > believing that she'd have *only* the atmosphere of the Black House > do Sirius in. My reply: We are severly underestimating Sirius the man is incredibly clever. Not only did he conceal the fact that he was infact an animagus, sneak into a castle, and escape Azkaban. All of this is just as interesting as the concealments that Barty Crouch did, inmho. So by you to say that Barty was in more of a sane mental state makes makes no sense to me. I would argue that it is possible that he could be drugged or even that it's just that he wasn't trying to be clever in book five. Who was he trying fool? Not really anyone.... ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 18:37:02 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:37:02 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Father Figure (was:Re: How Sirius' death suits Dumbledore?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130946 > > Betsy Hp: > And I've noticed as I've paged through OotP looking for canon that > Sirius displays a definite rollar-coaster of emotions. First he's > an excellent parental stand-in, holding off Molly and telling Harry > what Harry should be told. Then he's horrid and cruel. Then he's > back to giving Harry good, solid, advice. Then he's picking a > stupid fight with Snape. Then he's quite mature in handling Harry's > father-crisis. It's enough to give you whiplash. So the idea of > someone deliberately tampering with Sirius' emotions makes sense to > me. > > (I do doubt that the culbrit is Kreacher, however. For one, I > imagine there's pretty strong magic preventing house-elves from > poisoning their owners. For another, the poison is wizarding enough > that it's studied at Hogwarts and house-elf magic always seems quite > apart from wizard magic.) > > But in either case, there needs to be a reveal; the inherited > problem is discovered or the mystery is solved. So I do expect that > if there's more to the tragic story of Sirius Black we will learn > about it future books. This could be done with the details of the > prank (See! Sirius was mentally unstable even back then!) or with > the discovery of the ESE!fill-in-your-favorite-name (Don't trust > him/her! She/he poisoned Sirius!). Only JKR knows for sure. Finwitch: I think the idea of Sirius being fed that plant that causes recklessness etc. IS true. It hit me right as Harry was reading about the plant - is someone feeding it to Sirius? As for Kreacher doing it -- Sirius wanted breakfast and began calling Kreacher. So if Kreacher usually makes his food he certainly had opportunity. And it's the *plant's* magic, not even a potion -- so Kreacher has as much chance at doing it as any other (like Snape). And that plant wouldn't even be *poison* as such - it's not lethal per se, is it? It's affect on a house-elf might be different, though. For all we know, Narcissa gave it to Kreacher with instructions... Kreacher was missing when Hermione tried to give that blanket -- soon after that we witness Severus Snape vs. Sirius Black fight... Wonder why it didn't work on Harry, though? Or did it, but with different delay/went off to teen-angst? Dumbledore wasn't there, Snape didn't stay to eat (Sirius wouldn't let him), Moody wouldn't eat it (you know how he is)... Molly with her nasty comment to Sirius -- was she under influence, too? Lupin didn't seem to be, but if the plant was served on full moon... or maybe it's not effective on werewolves? Finwitch From prncssme at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 18:13:39 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:13:39 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <002d01c57422$4bf3b4e0$b459aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130947 > Phoenixgod: > > > The > > kind of tough uncompromising father that kids grow up to respect and > > understand do what they do out of love. > Amanda: > The whole point is, the children in the equation don't necessarily see that. > And we are seeing the relationship entirely through the child's eyes in this > case. The motivating factor for the adult is almost immaterial, for to a > child's perspective, all that matters or holds weight is the child's > reasoning and the child's perception--which are not mature enough to have > moved out of "victim" mode. > Phoenixgod: > > they want their children to > > grow up strong and disciplined so they enforce that discipline until > > the child is ready to enforce that discipline on themselves. > Amanda: > And I submit that Snape wants Harry to be disciplined until he can grow to > discipline himself. And Harry has shown Snape precious little evidence that > he can. Nothing you have said so far is inapplicable to Snape; in fact, it's > a really good summary of what I think Snape is trying to do. > Phoenixgod: > > When I was a teen I hated my father and we had > > a terrible relationship. I didn't understand what he was trying to > > do. > Amanda: > This is Harry now. > Phoenixgod: > > I'm older and wiser now and I see more clearly. He might have > > been an ass sometimes, but he was an ass that had my best interest > > at heart and in the end I am better off for what my father did. > Amanda: > This is where I hope Harry will allow himself to be mature enough to > achieve. > Phoenixgod: > > Snape doesn't have Harry's best interest at heart. > Amanda: > And this is the part I answered in my earlier post. Basically, (a) we don't > know that, and (b) even if we did, *Harry* is not mature enough to > understand what Snape is trying to do. Princess Sara now: Amanda, I just wanted to give you a bit of back up because the Snape-as-father-figure argument has been forming in my mind for about a year now. The point has been made several times here that the books are from Harry's point of view, not anyone else's. Sure, Snape's a right horrible bastard (I believe JKR called him a "deeply horrible person"), but he has saved Harry's life more times than we even possibly know about. Just in OoP, he gives Umbridge fake veritaserum and manages to decode Harry's actions in Umbridge's office towards the end of the book. If he truly couldn't stand that the spawn of James was walking the earth, I don't think he'd have been so vigilant about the boy's safety. Is Snape a nice man? Absolutely not. Is he capable of caring about someone? I think this is shown throughout canon multiple times. In SS/PS, Snape volunteers to referee a quidditch match, something that doesn't seem like a normal occurance, in order to protect Harry from Quirrell. I haven't read CoS in a while (I'm gonna before July 16th, I swear!) so I can't think of book example, though the scene in the movie where Snape suggests Harry was in the wrong place at the wrong time stands out to me. Probably not in the book. Anyway, in PoA, Snape's concern about Lupin seems to stem from the fact that he was friends with Sirius and could be letting the convict into the castle *to harm Harry*. He follows the trio into the Shrieking Shack to face a murderer and his "accomplice" Lupin all by his lonesome to save Harry from what he believes to be a grisly fate. I could continue but I'm getting long winded. All I'm trying to say is that saying Snape doesn't have Harry's best interests at heart is contradictory to canon. And it totally makes sense that Snape represents the authoritarian aspect of the "father figure". I can totally see a scene coming at the end of book 7 in which Snape either a) sacrifices himself to save Harry or b) Snape spends the battle covering Harry's back. I think we will see a deepening respect between Snape and Harry in contrast to a cooling relationship with Lupin. - Princess Sara (who's desperately hoping Snape doesn't buy the farm in book 6. Desperate crying would ensue) From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jun 18 19:42:25 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:42:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004401c5743d$dad5d100$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130948 I could continue but I'm getting long winded. All I'm trying to say is that saying Snape doesn't have Harry's best interests at heart is contradictory to canon. And it totally makes sense that Snape represents the authoritarian aspect of the "father figure". I can totally see a scene coming at the end of book 7 in which Snape either a) sacrifices himself to save Harry or b) Snape spends the battle covering Harry's back. I think we will see a deepening respect between Snape and Harry in contrast to a cooling relationship with Lupin. - Princess Sara Sherry now: The way I read Snape's efforts to save Harry is a little different. First of all, he feels indebted to James for saving his life and believes he must repay that by saving Harry's. That isn't necessarily honorable or done out of Harry's best interest. It's Snape's best interest. Also, as a Hogwarts teacher, it is his duty to protect the children. The WW doesn't seem to care if a teacher is a deeply abusive person, in the verbal and emotional sense, which in my opinion, Snape most definitely is, but it is his job to protect the physical well being of the students. I don't see his behavior being motivated for caring about Harry, as an individual. I see the opposite. I am quite sure it galls the hell out of him to have to protect the son of James. Again, a sign of his immaturity in not being able to see that the son is not the father. He can never truly have Harry's best interest at heart, till he lets go of that old hate and recognizes that Harry is not James. Sherry From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Jun 18 20:01:31 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:01:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's potential father figures (was Re: Snape as father figure) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > > Pippin: > It would be nice if Harry had such a father in the same way it > would be nice if Voldemort gave up seeking world domination > and decided to devote his energies to becoming all-wizard > Gobstones champion, ie, it would give the characters > something to cheer about and completely spoil the story > from the reader's point of view. I disagree completely. I don't think it would "spoil" the story at all, although I acknowledge it would spin it off in another direction. Development of character is integral to a story, as you say. However, the hero can't be the ONLY character who develops or the the story becomes a mere intellectual exercise rather than a believable narrative. And, as multiple characters develop, the relationships among them change -- sometimes in healthy ways, sometime in unhealthy ways. Nothing could be more natural or believable, or more interesting to read. > > IMO, Harry's challenge is to grow into someone who could be a > capable father himself despite having lost the good father > he had in James. That means he has to winnow the good > from the bad in all his father figures, Snape included. Once again, I disagree completely. I think the "multiple father figure" approach, while very interesting and clever, amounts to overanalyzing badly when you link it to "Harry's challenge." Harry's challenge is to defeat Voldemort and live to tell about it. I acknowledge that a search for a father figure is a part of Harry's quest (JKR herself has said so). However, I think that describes an aspect of his character and personality (a very believable one considering his history), not the central challenge he faces. > > If Harry never learns to appreciate Snape's constancy, the way > that Snape kept trying to do what was asked of him despite his > obvious dislike and unsuitablity for the task, then Harry will have > failed to learn something he needs to know to be an effective > parent. > > You may well be correct about that. However, if the other characters do not grow in their interaction with Harry, then they will have been revealed as sterile figures and the potential for growth in their relationships, presently rich with possibility, will only stagnate, thus revealing Harry, and to a certain the other kids, as the only ones with true capability for growth and change. It may be that JKR intends that, but it will be very sad if that turns out to be the case, particularly with regard to Lupin, who most needs growth in this area, and Dumbledore, who may have the most potential. I tend to agree that Harry will not have a single "father figure" in the classic sense. That does not mean that there will not be development, and clarification, in some of the potential "paternal" relationships he does have. As I say, Dumbledore has perhaps the most potential for growth in this aspect of his characterization, and Lupin certainly has the most need, as a character, for such development. If, as the veils of mystery surrounding so much of the plot and characters fall away, these relationships do not show further development, it will be very sad. Such a wastage of potential would, unfortunately, be true to life, but not at all pleasant or interesting to read about. That, I think, would come close to "spoiling the story from the reader's point of view" -- at least from the point of view of this reader. Lupinlore From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 00:04:19 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:04:19 -0000 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130950 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Mr. Lovegood - most major in the sense that it will bring Harry closer to Luna since he is the only one she will depend on because she has no other friends or family. Why else were "the Lovegoods" mentioned in GOF if not to establish Luna's quidditch mania and her knowing what the Dark Mark is? 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Draco Malfoy - only because that makes the slytherin lot all the more interesting when they discover that Lucius Malfoy is not as pure as everyone believed. JKR also makes some interesting tongue in cheek comments throughout the book that makes the possibility plausible though not probable. I would also not be suprised if the allegedly "leaked" character is the HBP, though that would be more of a dirty trick by JKR. (see potterplots for more detail in a day or so..) 3. What is Lily's big secret? She is up to her [eyes and ears] in alchemy with DUmbldore, Flamel, and James to the point of allowing the sorcerer's stone to be used to both create the potter's wealth and Harry's immortality (or at least his high durability - hair survival of the Dursley's snipping is significant of a power far greater....) I would be VERY suprised if much of this was revealed in book 6.... 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Severus Snape - he can't be worse than Umbridge and it would serve to both allow Harry to "place out" of the section if necessary and also to take advanced potions along with Neville. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna in BOok 6. I have posted on this extensively in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/messages/11 If this or #1 does not happen (regardless of outcome) then I don't deserve to even be considered to win this even if every other prediction is totally on point. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory - the ministry needs someone else thick headed yet with some credibility and he fits the bill. (btw i wonder what he did with Diggory's body? Wouldn't suprise me if they are a flock of vampires...) 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It is where Dumbledore will deposit all of his memories so that they will be available for Harry after his demise.... kind of like a Tidy-Bowl Obe Wan Kenobe 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? probably hundreds - he will be much sought after in HBP - some may even be carrying letters As for his coursework, he will get OWLs in everything but History of Magic - he didn't have a ghost of a chance on that one.... as far as Divination, he WILL get an Owl I can't predict why though ..... Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1.Mr. Lovegood will die within the first hundred pages of HBP while attempting to publish the last edition of the Quibbler before his aborted summer vacation. He will be killed by Goyle Sr., (who was not at the MOM and therefore is on the loose), with or without the help of other Death Eaters. To me this event is A CERTAINTY not a prediction. 2. Luna and Harry will be a SHIP in HBP because of #1 above and the fact that she has no remaining family or friends to turn to besides Harry, who has offered to help her twice before. 3. Knockturn Alley will plan a very big part in HBP before Harry ever goes to Hogwarts. Since their jokeshop is nearby in Diagon Alley, Fred and George will somehow come to Harry's aid or otherwise be a big help to him. If Fred, George or Hagrid somehow meet their end in HBP it will happen here..... 4. Actions or inactions by Sirius will be revealed as the major cause of the failure of events at Godric's Hollow - above and beyond his suggesting to James and Lily that they use Wormtail as Secret Keeeper. This failure will involve some parchment gone missing containing vital information that proved to Voldemort that the Potters were at Godric's Hollow. (shades of Droobles Gum Wrappers!) 5. SOMEONE ELSE besides the Potters and Lord Voldemort was at Godric's Hollow at the time the Potters were killed. This person could not be a pure death eater or they would have killed Harry even as Voldemort failed to do so. This person also could not be a pure order member since he would have teamed with James to try to defeat VOldemort. Therefore, for reasons explained elsewhere, this person was either Snape or Lupin (or both, but probably at different times....) I have posted on this before in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/messages/40 tinglinger who predictably, loves to make predictions on his yahoogroup potterplots....... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Jun 18 22:05:39 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:05:39 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure, was Sirius as Father Figure In-Reply-To: <009001c573ba$f8158b80$3659aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Let's stir the anthill. (Assuming, of course, someone has not already done [...] > > I think Snape holds to his hatred for a reason; while it's real >enough, I think it also helps with a smokescreen he must maintain for >his role. After re-reading OotP this summer, I have this unshakable conviction that Snape's harshness and favoritism toward students have been part of the role he is playing to maintain his bona fides with Malfoy and other supporters of LV. Of course he buries himself in the part because he has so much baggage to contned with. > Harry, on the other hand, has not had one belief to date about >Snape's actions that was not entirely Harry-centric. [...] Even though the books are written in the third person, in the tradition of coming-of-age stories, the world that is presented to us is the world as it appears to Harry. Part of the process of growing up is learning to see adults as they really are rather than as the benignant or scary giants of childhood. I agree that there is some kind of "obligatory scene" that has to take place between Harry and Snape. I am eager to see what it is. I can hardly wait till July. Houyhnhnm From kking0731 at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 00:42:41 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:42:41 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore & Registered Animagus was Re: Dumbledore and Transfiguration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130952 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > Julie wrote: > > > I don't think he is a registered animagus or Hermione would probably > > have mentioned it (speculation) > > Karen > > I have a theory on this and it is that Hermione said she looked it up > in the library and there had only been x (sorry not got book to hand) > number if animagi registered this centuary. Dumbledore, however, is > about 150 years old so I think that he was registered *last* centuary > so Hermione didn't see him in her book. > > Karen Snow: So, who were the other possible, I think seven, registered animagus? I've heard all types of theories on who could be an animagus but we know that McGonagall is one of; I think eight, registered animagus this century, then who are the other seven? Has anyone thought about whom these registered, with the Ministry, animagus are? Could they possibly be important, or is it just a throw away line? I truthfully never thought about this myself and just wandered since the subject came up if anyone else thought about whom they might be (remember they are from the last century)? From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 01:07:03 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:07:03 -0000 Subject: FILK: Just You Wait! (WAS:Harry and You-Know-Who Again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130954 CMC: I'm going to immediately upload this "Waiting for Book Six" filk to the appropriate page on my site. If anyone else has a filk on this topic, post it here, and with your OK I'll add it straight-away (since filks in this category have such a short sell-by date) Harry and You-Know-Who Again To the tune of Everything Old is New Again, by Peter Allen Dedicated to Ravenclaw Bookworm Bookworm: Vielen Dank. Thank you. I love it - and I'll be there at Spinner's End! Now you've inspired me to return the favor. Just You Wait! To the tune from "My Fair Lady" by Lerner and Loewe Dedicated to Caius Marcius Just you wait, Fans of Potter, just you wait! You'll be tired, but you'll stay up late! You'll be broke, but it's Jo's money; Some she'll donate, she's a Honey! Just you wait, Fans of Potter, just you wait! Just you wait, Fans of Potter, you'll be slick, As you scream for a copy double-quick. You'll line up a second after; The store's filled to the rafters! Oh ho ho, Fans of Potter, just you wait! Oooooooh, Fans of Potter! Just you wait until you're crowded in the store! Oooooooh, Fans of Potter! As you get sep'rated more come in the door! When the temp'rature gets hotter, It's `cause you're dressed as Harry Potter! Oh ho ho, Fans of Potter, just you wait! Tonight we'll have HBP! We'll read right away. Thanks to Jo for her writing, it's now the big day! That evening the fans will say: "O-oh, Jo Rowling, We and all the World, your praises do sing." That day on the sixteenth of July, The books off the tables will fly! All the readers will celebrate the glory of Jo, And whatever she writes and says we're eager to know. "Thanks a lot, Jo," say we, in a manner well-bred; "But all we ask is which one is dead?" "None," says our Jo with a glint, "If you can trust what I hint." Then you'll line up, Fans of Potter, in the store. And the Manager will shout, "Bring out more." As you buy that piece of heaven, you'll ask: "Now where's book Seven!" Oh ho ho, Fans of Potter, Just days to go, Fans of Potter! Just you wait! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 01:19:01 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:19:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (4 of 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130955 Alla previously > > If indeed Longbottoms knew a secret of how to defeat Voldemort, does > > it mean that they knew what Harry had to do to defeat him or does > > it mean that Harry is not the only one who can defeat him and has the > > power Voldemort knows not? > > > > Neri: > The way I imagine it is that Crouch Sr., or his research people at the > DoM, discovered the key information needed to vanquish Voldy. They > uncovered the technical part of it, but they didn't realize that it > wouldn't work without Harry. Perhaps Crouch and DD had a fallout > because Crouch hinted that he has a plan, but DD wouldn't be a part of > it, since he knew that only Harry can vanquish Voldemort, so Crouch > never told DD the details and decided to continue alone. But this part > of the theory is certainly very vague, and I'll welcome any ideas. > Alla: I don't know if this would qualify as an idea, more like follow up question or speculation, I think, but here it goes. Suppose that Longbottoms were indeed involved in the research of that great power in the locked room in DoM ( is there anything in canon which forbids the idea of aurors doing double duty so to speak - namely doing research too, not only fighting on the battlefield?) Yes, so they were all willing to deliver Voldie for Crouch or help him vanish Voldie with the use of that mysterious power, etc, but when they learn about prophecy and that it may mean that their son could be the one involved in the project, they decided to back out. Maybe that is why Bella and Co were able to get to them ,since Crouch refused to give them extra security or something. I guess today I am inclined to be a bit more charitable towards Longbottoms, namely that they would probably figured out who Crouch really is, but I am not so sure at all. I have to say that if I think about it, I have to admit that they probably stayed with Crouch till their end. I also think that your idea about Longbottoms paying symbolic price for their willingness to use unforgivables has a lot of merit. Does it sound too outlandish to you, captain? :-) JMO, Alla, who lent her copy of OOP and hopes that she did not say anything too anticanonical. :-) From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 02:05:20 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 02:05:20 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore & Registered Animagus was Re: Dumbledore and Transfiguration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130956 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" > wrote: > > Julie wrote: > > > > > I don't think he is a registered animagus or Hermione would > probably > > > have mentioned it (speculation) > > > > Karen > > > > I have a theory on this and it is that Hermione said she looked it > up > > in the library and there had only been x (sorry not got book to > hand) > > number if animagi registered this centuary. Dumbledore, however, > is > > about 150 years old so I think that he was registered *last* > centuary > > so Hermione didn't see him in her book. > > > > Karen > > Snow: > > So, who were the other possible, I think seven, registered animagus? > I've heard all types of theories on who could be an animagus but we > know that McGonagall is one of; I think eight, registered animagus > this century, then who are the other seven? > Has anyone thought about whom these registered, with the Ministry, > animagus are? Could they possibly be important, or is it just a throw > away line? I truthfully never thought about this myself and just > wandered since the subject came up if anyone else thought about whom > they might be (remember they are from the last century)? Come to think of it, we have learned a lot more about unregistered animagi than registered ones. I wonder if this info will come in handy in the war? It is possible that one or more may be death eaters. Or, could some DEs also be unregistered animagi? Considering how Rita Skeeter got around undetected and got so much information, imagine how much damage a DE could do. From bccissell at hotmail.com Sun Jun 19 03:15:58 2005 From: bccissell at hotmail.com (bciss1) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 03:15:58 -0000 Subject: Why were they guarding the prophecy in the first place? In-Reply-To: <20050618172829.27731.qmail@web26304.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130957 I don't think it makes sense that they would have just stopped guarding it after what happened to Mr. Weasley. After all, the attack on him just proved that Voldemort could somehow get in. But I wonder why they didn't just destroy it in the first place (I know, then we wouldn't have had that whole book). Dumbledore knew what it said, so the order didn't need to keep it around, and it would seem that the best way to keep anyone else from hearing it would be to destroy it. Bciss1 From kjones at telus.net Sun Jun 19 03:28:46 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:28:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <002d01c57422$4bf3b4e0$b459aacf@texas.net> References: <002d01c57422$4bf3b4e0$b459aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: <42B4E66E.4070606@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130958 Amanda Geist wrote: > What IS the world coming to, I'm combining responses. > The whole point is, the children in the equation don't necessarily see that. > And we are seeing the relationship entirely through the child's eyes in this > case. The motivating factor for the adult is almost immaterial, for to a > child's perspective, all that matters or holds weight is the child's > reasoning and the child's perception--which are not mature enough to have > moved out of "victim" mode. > And I submit that Snape wants Harry to be disciplined until he can grow to > discipline himself. And Harry has shown Snape precious little evidence that > he can. Nothing you have said so far is inapplicable to Snape; in fact, it's > a really good summary of what I think Snape is trying to do. > I argue that Snape exhibits objectivity towards Harry -- as an example, > during the Occlumency lessons--especially after Harry "breaks into" Snape's > thoughts and sees some of Snape's memories. Harry, typical for his > perception, braces for a very personal response and instead meets a very > professional one. An objective one. > ~Amanda, premier Snapologist Kathy writes: I think that Amanda has some very interesting points, as do the other posters. I can see where Snape never has to actually like or understand Harry. In fact, Harry never has to understand or like Snape. What I think will happen is that Harry will remember that Snape was the one teacher who taught him "expelliarmus", Snape has demonstrated that he is quite capable in defensive magic, and that Snape was the only one to honestly answer his questions about Volemort's affect on his mind. Harry knows that Snape attempted to save him from Quirrel and to protect him from Umbridge. Harry also knows that Snape for whatever reason, protected him from the Minister by claiming that he was "confunded". Harry knows that Dumbledore has his best interests at heart, but this has screwed him up. He was not trusted with knowledge and Sirius was killed because of it. Harry is not yet ready to blame Dumbledore instead of Snape for Sirius's death because it would mean that the only person he can trust is the one person who he hates and who hates him. I think Harry will be forced to choose a male adult that he can trust above all others who is capable of doing what Harry believes needs to be done to stop Voldemort. Dumbledore will be unwilling to risk Harry, Lupin would not have the authority or back-bone to risk Harry. He would waver. I believe that Snape would, if the plan was feasible, if the odds were good, and if the outcome would protect the WW, risk Harry and act as his protector. Snape will probably be the one that Harry goes to for assistance. KJ From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Jun 19 03:39:34 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 03:39:34 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <002d01c57422$4bf3b4e0$b459aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Phoenixgod: > > > The > > kind of tough uncompromising father that kids grow up to respect and > > understand do what they do out of love. > > The whole point is, the children in the equation don't necessarily see that. > And we are seeing the relationship entirely through the child's eyes in this > case. The motivating factor for the adult is almost immaterial, for to a > child's perspective, all that matters or holds weight is the child's > reasoning and the child's perception--which are not mature enough to have > moved out of "victim" mode. phoenixgod200: lets begin on a note of agreement. The book should come out tomorrow, right? Now onward to the arguing! The motivating factor is everything when it comes to father figures. Understanding the motivation is the key to coming to accepting/respecting your fathers actions. You move out of victim mode because you realize you were never the victim in the first place. Harry *is* Snape's victim in a lot of ways (although not as much as Neville). He doesn't need to learn how to respect or understand him. What he needs is to learn how to stand up to the man and to let his petty actions roll off of his back. It's closer to what the child of an emotional abusive parent has to go through instead of the child of a strict but basically caring parent which seems to me what you're arguing. To boil it down: The type of father figure a child comes to respect later in life is the kind of father who is tough but has your best interests at heart and not the kind of father who is tough but uninterested or actively antagonistic with his child. No one comes to respect the second type of father, they just come to endure him. Guess which one I think Snape is :) > And I submit that Snape wants Harry to be disciplined until he can grow to > discipline himself. And Harry has shown Snape precious little evidence that > he can. Nothing you have said so far is inapplicable to Snape; in fact, it's > a really good summary of what I think Snape is trying to do. I agree that Harry is undisciplined and if you were to say that Snape is a representation of 'Authority' in the novel I wouldn't have any arguement with you other than what sort of authority he represents. But father figures are something different and I don't think Snape fits into that camp. To be honest, I don't even think that Dumbledore fits into that camp. When I talk about a father figure I am speaking of a more symbolic familial role for the character and neither Snape nor DD fit in my view. A generic authority figure yes, but not a father figure. > Snape doesn't have Harry's best interest at heart. > And this is the part I answered in my earlier post. Basically, (a) we don't > know that, and (b) even if we did, *Harry* is not mature enough to > understand what Snape is trying to do. It seems pretty clear to me that Snape doesn't have Harry's best interests at heart. He does what he does out of obligation to Dumbledore and his understanding of what DD would want--ie, keeping the kiddies alive. And there certainly isn't any evidence that Snape knows the extent of the role Harry is to play in the coming conflict. I can't imagine he would ever have quit occulomency lessons if he did. > I argue that Snape exhibits objectivity towards Harry -- as an example, > during the Occlumency lessons--especially after Harry "breaks into" Snape's > thoughts and sees some of Snape's memories. Harry, typical for his > perception, braces for a very personal response and instead meets a very > professional one. An objective one. You think Snapes reaction was objective? You apparently operate under a different definition than I do. Objectivity is dispassionate and clear thinking which is pretty much the opposite of what Snape does. phoenixgod2000, who totally knows he's going to catch crap from people for not thinking of DD as a father figure. From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun Jun 19 03:41:39 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:41:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <42B4E66E.4070606@telus.net> Message-ID: <00a101c57480$cdc78c90$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 130960 Kathy writes: I think that Amanda has some very interesting points, as do the other posters. I can see where Snape never has to actually like or understand Harry. In fact, Harry never has to understand or like Snape. What I think will happen is that Harry will remember that Snape was the one teacher who taught him "expelliarmus", Snape has demonstrated that he is quite capable in defensive magic, and that Snape was the only one to honestly answer his questions about Volemort's affect on his mind. Harry knows that Snape attempted to save him from Quirrel and to protect him from Umbridge. Harry also knows that Snape for whatever reason, protected him from the Minister by claiming that he was "confunded". snip Sherry now: Are you seriously suggesting that Snape's reasons for telling Fudge the kids were confunded was to protect them? i absolutely do not believe that. Snape did not want to believe them, because it might mean having to let go of his preconceived notions. He might actually have to admit Sirius was innocent and Lupin was not working in cahoots with Sirius to try to hurt Harry. Oh my, how could he let that be? And the order of Merlin, too! That temper tantrum he threw in the shrieking shack and in the hospital wing didn't seem much like protecting anyone but himself. Sherry From empooress at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 03:43:35 2005 From: empooress at yahoo.com (Kim McGibony) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HBP -- COS Connection In-Reply-To: <1119151671.2284.93760.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050619034336.9318.qmail@web52103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130961 First I must confess I saw this posted on another board and had not seen it posted here. It was just so clever that I thought I'd share it. In COS, at Sir Nicholas' Death Day Party are the members of the headless hunt. They are headed up by Sir Patrick Delany Padmore, perhaps the great grand relative of Sturgis Podmore. Maybe that's the half blood prince. Empooress ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 04:00:33 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 04:00:33 -0000 Subject: HBP -- COS Connection In-Reply-To: <20050619034336.9318.qmail@web52103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130962 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kim McGibony wrote: > > In COS, at Sir Nicholas' Death Day Party are the > members of the headless hunt. They are headed up by > Sir Patrick Delany Padmore, perhaps the great grand > relative of Sturgis Podmore. Maybe that's the half > blood prince. > Tonks: If he is Sir, he is a Knight, not a Prince. However, for one to be a Knight one must be Knighted by a King. Right?? There is a King in the background of Hogwarts somewhere, and if a King, it follows that there is a Price. But a long, long ago. Tonks_op From kking0731 at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 04:01:01 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 04:01:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (4 of 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130963 Snow: This has to have been the best TBAY post I have seen yet, Neri! Wow what research you put into this four-part post, well done! This one should go directly to the Fantastic Post archives. I have a few, very few, comments or rather possible contributions to strengthen your ship's sail or not, depending. This is in regards to the missing 24 hours and the possibility that Harry had been taken to the Longbottoms for care until Hagrid could deliver Harry later that evening to the Dursley's. The Longbottoms torture could have been a result of that involvement There was a large tawny owl that "none of them noticed" at the Dursley's just as Uncle Vernon had left for work, pg. 2 SS. I have a strong feeling that this was the owl that informed Petunia that she should meet Dumbledore at a specific time and place. Dumbledore would had to have informed the Longbottoms of the previous nights happenings (at Godric's Hollow) if they were to watch over Harry until what time he could make arrangements for his Aunt to take him, so Dumbledore used the Longbottom's owl in messaging Petunia just after Vernon left. The connection to the Longbottoms and the large tawny owl is on pg. 194 of GOF: "A large tawny owl soared down to Neville Longbottom and deposited a parcel into his lap- Neville almost always forgot to pack something." What is this line for to tell us that Neville is forgetful, again? Or is it that this `tawny owl' has something important to say? This owl was on page two of the very first book and when we hear from him again, is it just a throw away line or is it a connection? Neri: mysteries and questions: 1. What will be the role of the veil in the story? Snow: Where Harry rescues Sirus duh 3. Why were the Longbottoms attacked? Snow: `Cause Alice worked with Lily as an unspeakable in an attempt to combat Voldemort with an ancient charm that he knows of but underestimates. 4. How did the Longbottoms come to be attacked by their boss' son? Snow: This one is too easy the Imperious curse that Jr. couldn't resist anywhere near Harry's ability too. Jr. had been bound to his father and Winky for nigh on to twelve years and could not defeat the effect of this curse that Harry had overcome in what three tries? (And Crouch Jr. got twelve Owls, how many should Harry get?) 5. Who sent the Lestranges after the Longbottoms? You're starting to make my head hurt Neri; if we knew the answer then we would know the answer to the puzzle? I will however reply with a Lucius because he is just too slippery. 6. Why was Crouch Sr. so sure that his son was guilty? Snow: Didn't matter to Sr. whether or not his son was guilty, it was all about him(self). 7. Why did Bellatrix say that she had tried to find Voldemort? Snow: Sorry, don't recall this incident at all. 8. Why was Fudge eager to get rid of Crouch Jr. in the end of GoF? Snow: He's a politician! And Crouch Jr. was a possible informant. Fudge is only out for himself and anyone that could possibly jeopardize his position needs to be extinguished. 9. Why will Fudge be kicked out of office in HBP? Snow: This part could be the humor in the book. The Goblins, very little seen or heard about, annoying so in my opinion, will finally make their debut, will not only take down Fudge but Ludo too. 10. How can the Longbottoms be cured quickly? Snow: Not so sure about Frank but Alice definitely will recover. Alice was an unspeakable, imo, along with Lily! And is trying to reach her son by giving him clues that are representative of where she worked. Then again, to Gran it's all about Frank HER SON and Alice, even if she had a reportable position, Gran would never admit it. 11. What is the big secret the Longbottoms will reveal? Snow: That Alice knew, along with Lily, how to possibly defeat Voldemort; at the very least they were working on it. Neri: E.L.K.I.N.S. A.V.E.N.G.E.D. Enthralled Longbottoms Know the INside Secret: the Ability to Vanquish the ENemy is Guarded in the Elusive Department. Snow: Love the boat; you defiantly got something here Neri! Snow From editor at texas.net Sun Jun 19 04:42:39 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:42:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as father figure References: Message-ID: <001201c57489$53914ca0$9959aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130964 Amanda originally: > > I argue that Snape exhibits objectivity towards Harry -- as an example, > > during the Occlumency lessons--especially after Harry "breaks into" Snape's > > thoughts and sees some of Snape's memories. Harry, typical for his > > perception, braces for a very personal response and instead meets a very > > professional one. An objective one. Phoenixgod: > You think Snapes reaction was objective? You apparently operate > under a different definition than I do. Objectivity is dispassionate > and clear thinking which is pretty much the opposite of what Snape > does. Let's look at the passage. It's a bit long to type, so I will recap--but it begins at the bottom of page 591, OoP, for those who want to follow along with the home game. Snape has cast Legilimens. Harry has managed some resistance, can still see Snape, and raises his own wand and casts the shield spell, "Protego." Snape is staggered, and "suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his." Snape breaks the bond; Harry staggers back. He sees "Snape was shaking slightly, very white in the face." Snape repairs the jar that has broken when Harry fell back against the shelf. And then he says, "Well, Potter...that was certainly an improvement..." He pants slightly as he straightens the Pensieve and continues, "I don't remember telling you to use a Sheild Charm...but there is no doubt that it was effective..." Harry does not speak; he is unnerved by what he saw and he also is, characteristically, expecting a personal attack from Snape in retaliation. Then, "Let's try again, shall we?" said Snape. Stop the tape. Okay, this is a man who has just had James Potter's son see into his past and personal memories. And are we shown, even through Harry's eyes, that Snape snarls? narrows his eyes? says anything "silkily" or sarcastically or any of the other familiar adjectives and descriptions of Snape being mean or cruel? No. Snape simply *says* things. He has been shaken; but Harry breaking through into his own mind is a risk he accepted from the outset--as evidenced by his safeguarding certain memories in the Pensieve--and it happened. Okay. He took a couple of moments to collect himself, and immediately *tries again.* This is a professional response. This is what a teacher does--when a student gets it right, you immediately reinforce it. And Snape did so without passion or anger. Roll tape. Snape casts Legilimens again. [and if I may make an aside, I cannot fathom why Harry is always caught so unprepared, because Snape always makes a point of saying "I'm casting the spell now" and then counting to three. Can't Harry count? How hard is it to figure out it's coming..?] And this time, Harry has a vision of the Department of Mysteries and makes it through the door--which Snape evidently sees, and breaks the connection himself. And *here* we see anger. Here Snape is "standing over him, looking furious" and "For some reason, Snape seemed even angrier than he had done two minutes before, when Harry had seen into his own memories." End clip; they are interrupted soon after. This is not personal anger. This is professional and goal-oriented anger. This is the anger of a teacher whose student is not working. This is the frustration of one who is risking himself, trying to teach someone who wilfully won't learn, even knowing the stakes are high. And Harry's "For some reason" thought is telling--for it shows that Harry understands their interaction only on a personal feud-level, and is incapable of understanding that they can interact any other way. Incapable of seeing Snape as a teacher and not an adversary. In any case. Snape is angry at Harry for not working at Occlumency. Snape is not angry at Harry for successfully resisting him and accidentally breaking into his memories. So yes, I call that professional and objective. At least a damn sight more than Harry is managing. [and yes, for you Harry-defenders out there, I have already made the case that Voldemort may have been influencing Harry and will not blame him overly for this.] ~Amandageist From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Jun 19 04:58:03 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:58:03 -0700 Subject: Very Elderly Wizards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <304060726.20050618215803@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130965 Just wondering -- If Dumbledore is circa 150, how old does that make Prof. Marchbanks and the other OWL examiners?? -- Dave From kjones at telus.net Sun Jun 19 05:26:56 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:26:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <00a101c57480$cdc78c90$0400a8c0@pensive> References: <00a101c57480$cdc78c90$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <42B50220.9040305@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 130966 Sherry Gomes wrote: > Sherry now: > > Are you seriously suggesting that Snape's reasons for telling Fudge the kids > were confunded was to protect them? i absolutely do not believe that. > Snape did not want to believe them, because it might mean having to let go > of his preconceived notions. He might actually have to admit Sirius was > innocent and Lupin was not working in cahoots with Sirius to try to hurt > Harry. Oh my, how could he let that be? And the order of Merlin, too! > That temper tantrum he threw in the shrieking shack and in the hospital wing > didn't seem much like protecting anyone but himself. > > Sherry > Kathy writes: So far Snape has accused Harry of being a publicity seeker, conceited, a thief, an arrogant rule-breaker. Why in the world would he tell Fudge that Harry, Ron, and Hermione were confunded? He has not made excuses for him before. Perhaps Dumbledore told him not to accuse Harry of assisting Sirius, but the only concession Snape would have made would be to say nothing and let Fudge come to his own conclusions. He certainly never mentioned that Lupin must have been confunded. Again, he did not mention Lupin at all, let Fudge come to his own conclusions. I don't believe that Harry thought for a minute that Snape believed that he was confunded.When Snape snapped, he went back to blaming Harry for everything. I believe that Snape is fully aware of the prophecy and that he has to help keep Harry alive and free to fulfill that prophecy. I believe that he was protecting them from a perceived prosecution by the Ministry for aiding a fugitive. I'm sure the idea that Sirius was innocent never crossed his mind. I'm also sure that he is not protecting Harry because he likes him, or feels sorry for him, or because Snape owes his father a life debt. Regardless of how Snape feels about Harry, Harry will draw his own conclusions about Snape's place in his life based on the information he has. KJ From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Jun 19 05:46:20 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 05:46:20 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <001201c57489$53914ca0$9959aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130967 > > In any case. Snape is angry at Harry for not working at Occlumency. Snape is > not angry at Harry for successfully resisting him and accidentally breaking > into his memories. So yes, I call that professional and objective. At least > a damn sight more than Harry is managing. [and yes, for you Harry- defenders > out there, I have already made the case that Voldemort may have been > influencing Harry and will not blame him overly for this.] > > ~Amandageist Wait a minute, I thought we were talking about the scene where Harry sneaks a peak in Snapes memories? Methinks we are talking about two different things. phoenixgod2000 From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Jun 19 06:04:52 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 06:04:52 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > > > > > In any case. Snape is angry at Harry for not working at > Occlumency. Snape is > > not angry at Harry for successfully resisting him and accidentally > breaking > > into his memories. So yes, I call that professional and objective. > At least > > a damn sight more than Harry is managing. [and yes, for you Harry- > defenders > > out there, I have already made the case that Voldemort may have > been > > influencing Harry and will not blame him overly for this.] > > > > ~Amandageist > > Wait a minute, I thought we were talking about the scene where Harry > sneaks a peak in Snapes memories? Methinks we are talking about two > different things. > > phoenixgod2000 I meant to say took a look in Snapes pensive not memories. I am way too mixed up right now. phoenixgod2000 From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 06:05:18 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 06:05:18 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury ScreenSaver Download Shows MORE -- SPOILER Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130969 Spoiler Warning************************************************************** ***Spoiler S*P*O*I*L*E*R********************************* *********************************** *********************************************** I downloaded the screensaver and there are indeed things there that don't show on the cover of the book (for the adult version) that is on their website. There is a wealth of information there!! If you don't want to know.. stop reading now . One of the first things is the red stone. I bought a plate on E-bay awhile back, from the UK of the Mirror of Erised. I know that JKR has to approve all of the art, not just for the books, but for every item that they make. (Doubt me if you will, but the WB rep. I talked to told me this.) The picture on the plate is the same as this stone on the screensaver. On the plate it shows Harry looking into the mirror in the scene where (in the book) he finds the stone in his pocket. But in this artist rendition, the stone is in his heart and radiation out like is often seen in pictures of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I have packed the plate away so I can't send a picture of it. You will have to take my word for it the stone on the plate is the same as in the screen saver. It is the SS. And it disappears into the eye of one of the snakes that are entwined on the wall with the vine on it. It looks like the room that the snakes are in is somehow accessible through the outside wall in the tower, on the right of the second window. In an *upper room* (the middle window of 3 windows on the tower of Hogwarts (I assume that it is Hogwarts, it may be some other castle.), there is the chalice. The chalice is wood, but I don't think it is the same one as the Tri-wizard tournament. It has a blue flame in it. And it is hard to make out because the screensaver moves too fast, but there might be some kind of marking on the floor to the right. But I may be wrong about that, it may mean nothing. Then there are flames and a golden phoenix. The phoenix does not look like a living bird. It looks like a golden image of a phoenix. The whole screensaver starts and ends with a picture of the Potions book. Didn't we decide that borage was a type of plant? Is that the plant or vine on the wall? Or maybe the author's name means nothing. I am not sure if the castle is Hogwarts. The water looks very rough. Maybe Harry and DD get in a boat and go ?? and find this other castle which is the castle of the HBP. And the stuff there is his. I think entwining snakes are a symbol of healing, like you see on a doctor's license plate. The Caduceus comes from ancient Mesopotamia where the intertwining serpents were a symbol of the god who cures all illnesses. I don't think that the image of snakes on this wall has anything to do with Slytherin and evil. I think that Harry and DD find the castle of the HBP and discover the ancient mystery of the Phoenix. (I may be wrong, but I don't think that golden Phoenix is a good sign. It reminds me of a molten calf in the Bible accounts, where the people worshiped the image and not God. ) In order to see all of this you have to download the screensaver. It is worth doing. I would love to hear what everyone else thinks of the images there. It tells far more than anything that we have seen before. IMO. Also the other screensaver for the children's edition is really, really COOL!! I don't usually download stuff, but I really like that one. Tonks_op From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jun 19 06:55:32 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 02:55:32 EDT Subject: Snape as father figure Message-ID: <1e4.3dd7f020.2fe670e4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130970 > Amanda: > I don't think Dumbledore's wrong at all. I don't think Snape can > overcome his feelings about James. Dumbledore didn't say "Snape > can't overcome his feelings about *you* because you're James' son"-- > he said "about your father." > > > Alla: > > Wait, wait a second. Dumbledore says that in direct response to > Harry's accusations that Snape did not teach him Occlumency > effectively, so yes I read this quote as "Snape could not overcome > his feelings about James, and THAT IS WHY he could not teach you > Occlumency effectively" > Julie says: I think you might both be working on the same interpretation here ;-) Snape can't overcome his feelings about James, which is WHY he reacted so badly when he caught Harry delving into his pensieve memories--those memories bring back the humiliation he felt, as well as his hatred of James for putting him in that position--thus it is also WHY he could not teach Harry Occlumency effectively. Truly though, we can't know the exact meaning of Dumbledore's comment, because, like so many other hotly disputed scenes, we don't get all the facts. We don't know what reason Snape gave Dumbledore for discontinuing the lessons, whether Snape revealed everything that happened, or if kept the more humiliating bits (like Harry's venture into the pensieve) to himself. One slightly suspicious thing to me is that Dumbledore brings up Snape's mistake in not being able to overcome his feelings about James, but he doesn't so much as mention Harry's invasion of Snape's privacy. (And while Dumbledore might dismiss Harry's first pensieve venture as natural "curiosity," it's hard to see him dismissing this incident as the same.) It really makes me wonder if Dumbledore knows the whole story. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prncssme at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 04:18:14 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 04:18:14 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <004401c5743d$dad5d100$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130971 > Sherry now: > The way I read Snape's efforts to save Harry is a little different. First > of all, he feels indebted to James for saving his life and believes he must > repay that by saving Harry's. That isn't necessarily honorable or done out > of Harry's best interest. It's Snape's best interest. *snip* Again, a sign of his immaturity in not being able to see > that the son is not the father. He can never truly have Harry's best > interest at heart, till he lets go of that old hate and recognizes that > Harry is not James. Princess Sara: You've brought up two interesting points here and I must admit, I'd almost completely forgotten about the life debt thing. I agree, the instinct to protect Harry may have initially risen from a feeling of obligation because of the debt owed to James. However, if Snape truly loathed Harry as much as has been assumed, I don't know that he would have continued doing so for five years. Saving him from Quirrell probably would have cleared Snape's questionable conscience and as James is dead, who was going to bring it up again? My interpretation: Snape actually cares if Harry dies. Your second argument is eerily familiar to the Sirius=father figure debate. Do Severus and Sirius recognize that Harry is not James? I'm going to argue that they both do. However, as in Sirius' case, Harry's strong resemblance to James causes expectations that are difficult to control or analyze. While Sirius expects Harry to be as mischievious as James, Snape expects him to be as arrogant as James. While we, the audience, know that Harry isn't as arrogant or attention-seeking as James, when has Harry ever given Snape reason to believe otherwise? Even in Oop, when they have the most personal contact, Harry's demands sound very much like, "I'm the famous Harry Potter and I deserve to know everything." Harry's continual rule-breaking, while good intentioned and required at times, is just another comparison Snape can draw to his father. Now, is Snape a *good* father figure? Just like Sirius, Snape is lacking a few necessary characteristics to qualify for that position. However, just as Harry learned about love from Sirius, he can learn about control for Snape. And yes, I do believe that Snape is incredibly controlled until pushed. How else could he have survived being a spy? So, in conclusion, I still maintain that he had Harry's best interests at heart. - Princess Sara From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Sun Jun 19 08:15:19 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:15:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore & Registered Animagus was Re: Dumbledore and Transfiguration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130972 Karen wrote: > > >Dumbledore, however, is about 150 years old so I think that he was registered *last* centuary so Hermione didn't see him in her book. Snow: > > > > So, who were the other possible, I think seven, registered > animagus? > > I've heard all types of theories on who could be an animagus but > we know that McGonagall is one of; I think eight, registered animagus this century, then who are the other seven? Karen: > Come to think of it, we have learned a lot more about unregistered > animagi than registered ones. -------------------------------------------------------------- I also thought DD wasn't animagus...although that is a good point about registered list of the past century. I am sure we would have seen a hint somewhere...maybe he is a barn owl! There have been hints about unregistered ones (padfoot, prongs, lupin and wormtail) whether it be via an essay, charm or pet. So if DD is registered or even unregistered...there must be a clue...(and clues to some of the other seven). ..but I like Julie's idea of DD being part (or can transform into a) Demiguise. I too wondered how he could see through invibility cloaks, later I thought Occlumency, but ruled it out since Snape can't see through to Harry under the cloak. Not sure...must ponder on that one.... pot_of_harry From ryokas at hotmail.com Sun Jun 19 14:12:05 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:12:05 -0000 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130973 Yeah, I guess I'll jump on the bandwagon. > We will find out, e-hunt you > down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. Details respectfully requested. > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Bill/Charlie Weasley. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Tonks. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily, instead of the more apparent candinate James, had a mysterious old connection to the Gryffindor line. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? New character - Old Lion Guy. I expect the teacher to be just the kind of person Dumbledore would hire at this moment; competent and powerful, and eager to repair the damage Dolores caused. You will get a good education from him, whether you want to or not. Veterancy of the last war, including dramatic/tragic events during its course, comes with the package. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley is unavoidable. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones, who seems cut out for the job. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? An ordinary Pensieve; whether or not the contents are ordinary is irrelevant. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, very reclutantly indeed. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. He has no real reason not to jump ship the first chance he gets. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Six. This just sounds like a nice round number and our knowledge of the system is patchy. > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Harry will visit his parents' graves and have a Dramatic Moment but will receive no direct advantage. 2. A suspicious but nonevil person will be the target of a witch-hunt (sorry) after being falsely accused of Death Eaterhood. 3. There will be a humorous or semi-humorous incident involving transmogrification gone wrong. 4. Harry won't brood on the nature of death and the like much and no religion will be named, as JKR needs to keep her story fun to read and to keep it from espousing any particular religious viewpoint. 5. A rift will develop between Vernon and Petunia Dursley but not hit its apex. From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sun Jun 19 15:32:45 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 07:32:45 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore & Registered Animagus was Re: Dumbledore and Transfiguration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130974 >I also thought DD wasn't animagus...although that is a good point >about registered list of the past century. >I am sure we would have seen a hint somewhere...maybe he is a barn >owl! There have been hints about unregistered ones (padfoot, prongs, >lupin and wormtail) whether it be via an essay, charm or pet. So if >DD is registered or even unregistered...there must be a clue...(and >clues to some of the other seven). But I thought his name WAS the clue. I thought the name Dumbledore had something to do with bumblebees. It would be easy to get around a huge old castle as a bumblebee, though a tad noisier than I would have thought. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 16:14:22 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:14:22 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130975 Amandageist: In any case. Snape is angry at Harry for not working at > Occlumency. Snape isnot angry at Harry for successfully resisting him and accidentally breaking into his memories. So yes, I call that professional and objective. At least a damn sight more than Harry is managing. [and yes, for you Harry- defenders out there, I have already made the case that Voldemort may have been influencing Harry and will not blame him overly for this. Phoenixgod: > Wait a minute, I thought we were talking about the scene where Harry > sneaks a peak in Snapes memories? Methinks we are talking about two > different things. Alla: Yes, Phoenixgod, I think you were talking about two different episodes and I was talking about whole thing in general. SO, ONCE during the whole Occlumency thing Snape manages to keep his mouth shut and show a response close to what teacher has to show, I will give you that, Amanda. I will still say that his behaviour as a whole during comes not even CLOSE to being professional and objective. JMO of course. "How do you know?" said Harry urgently. "Is this just Professor Dumbledore guessing, or ---?" "I told you," said Snape, rigid in his chair, his eyes slits, "to call me Sir." - p.533. "I'm trying," said Harry angrily, " but you're not telling me how!" "Manners, POtter," said Snape dangerously." Now I want you to close your eyes" - p.535. And of course, the much cited last scene. "So," said Snape, gripping Harry's arm so tightly Harry's hand was starting to feel numb. " So... been enjoying yourself, Potter?" "N-no..." said Harry trying to free his arm. It was scary: Snape's lips were shaking, his face was white, his teeth were bared. "Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?" said Snape shaking Harry so hard his glasses slipped down his nose. "I-didn't-" Snape threw Harry from him with all his might. Harry fell hard onto the dungeon floor." - OOP., p.649 I cannot call this a professional behaviour. If Snape can loose it so badly. I would say he is simply too dangerous to be around Harry. After all, who knows what he can do to Harry, when he thinks about James Potter next time. Having said all this, I am arguing that EVEN IF Snape was an example of professional behaviour throuhout Occlumency lessons, it was already too late. As somebody said earlier, Snape completely owns Harry/Snape problem. When Harry arrived at Hogwarts, he had no clue who Snape was and he had no grounds whatsoever to hate him. Snape ripped into him on their first lesson and continued his tactics of abuse and humiliation during those years. So, when Occlumency starts, Harry does not trust Snape and even if he was told over and over again that Snape is a trusted member of the Order, Harry remembers what Snape does to him over and over again and I doubt that based on his experiences he can trust Snape much. I do blame Snape for Occlumency disaster, NOT only based on his behaviour during the lessons ( because indeed Harry was not practicing enough too and he was not supposed to look in Snape's pensieve), but based on what Snape did to Harry before lessons ever happened. What I think is very telling is how Harry feels when he comes before the lesson even started - "Shut the door behind you, POtter." "Harry did as he was told with the horrible feeling that he was imprisoning himself as he did so" - OOP, p.529. He goes to Occlumency as if he goes to Prison. Hmm, I wonder how productive such lesson can be. Just my opinion of course, Alla. From thewifenwv at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 08:08:53 2005 From: thewifenwv at yahoo.com (Jennifer) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:08:53 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury ScreenSaver Download Shows MORE -- SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130976 I think that each of the scenes on the screensaver are from the cover of each of the adult Bloomsbury editions. Check out this page on Bloomsbury's site. It shows each of the children's and the adults versions next to each other. http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/default.asp?sec=4 Then go to jacket images. Jennifer From julierice8 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 14:30:17 2005 From: julierice8 at yahoo.com (Julie Rice) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 07:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why were they guarding the prophecy in the first place? Message-ID: <20050619143017.56467.qmail@web50505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 130977 Bciss1 wrote snip I don't think it makes sense that they would have just stopped guarding it after what happened to Mr. Weasley. After all, the attack on him just proved that Voldemort could somehow get in. Julie OHio reply: Just because there wasn't a mention of someone guarding the prophecy (and possibly being disposed of before Harry and his group came) doesn't mean there wasn't one. We just can't tell for sure. Bciss1 wrote snip But I wonder why they didn't just destroy it in the first place (I know, then we wouldn't have had that whole book). Dumbledore knew what it said, so the order didn't need to keep it around, and it would seem that the best way to keep anyone else from hearing it would be to destroy it. Julie Ohio replies The only people who could take the prophecy from the shelf were the people the prophecy was about. So, only Harry or Voldemort could have taken the prophecy. AFter that, anyone could have destroyed it (as so happened). So no one in the Order could have destroyed it without getting Harry to take the prophecy out. And considering that both Harry and Dumbledore were not in favor at the ministry and the ministry saw no reason to believe that Voldemort was back, there was very little chance that the prophecy could have been destroyed. JMO ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 19 16:47:33 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:47:33 -0000 Subject: Why were they guarding the prophecy in the first place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bciss1" wrote: > But I wonder why they didn't just destroy it in the first place (I > know, then we wouldn't have had that whole book). Dumbledore knew > what it said, so the order didn't need to keep it around, and it > would seem that the best way to keep anyone else from hearing it > would be to destroy it. But how were they going to manage that when Harry and Voldemort were the only people who could pick it up? Also I doubt that Fudge would have allowed any of Dumbledore's known associates to set foot in the Dept of Mysteries, and even if he had I can't seee him allowing them to blast a whole shelf full of prophecies for six, which would seem to be the only option bearing in mind the handling issue. Karen From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 17:08:17 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:08:17 -0000 Subject: HBP -- COS Connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130979 > Tonks: > > If he is Sir, he is a Knight, not a Prince. However, for one to be a > Knight one must be Knighted by a King. Right?? There is a King in the > background of Hogwarts somewhere, and if a King, it follows that there > is a Price. But a long, long ago. Not necessarily. Any noble could dub a knight by mere resting his sword on a shoulder of a person thus honoured. Of course, the existence of nobility implies the existence of royalty, but there is no reason to suggest that it had anything to do with Hogwarts and/or magic. Wizards and Muggles did live together before 1696. a_svirn From darkthirty at shaw.ca Sun Jun 19 17:38:32 2005 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:38:32 -0000 Subject: Yet another prophecy question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130980 Bonnie wrote: > Now why do we have to keep the prophecy secret from LV? Surely by now he's figured out that Harry is the one he needs to worry about? dan: I haven't the foggiest idea why. I've posted a few times that Potter might be tempted to tell Voldemort the prophecy in some attempt to take the focus off his friends, off the rest of the world. It might happen later, who knows. When Potter has enough information to make the revelation count.... The point is well-taken, though, if Voldemort can't say nemesis yet, he's got lead for brains. It reminds me of the stern admonition not to move that Dumbledore shouts to Potter in the Ministry - what's the difference if Potter is still or if he moves? Like, Voldemort might forget he was there? "Hmm, wasn't that nasty little schoolboy around here somewhere?... No... oh, well... What's that? Oh, yes, him, right, there he is. Let's possess him!!!!" The current theory is that we'll find out first chapter of HBP why Voldemort doesn't quite get it, or seems not to. > I'm wondering if indeed those "....and"'s in the prophecy do hide something. Why did DD let Harry hear the whole prophecy? Isn't DD worried that LV will be able to read Harry's mind and know it too? dan: Perplexing question again. It reminds me of the irksome question about how Snape could want to get Potter expelled so often - like, the Wizarding World is safer with Potter untrained in magic, living among muggles and so forth. Snape must either a) think Dumbledore's a crock (ie disagree with his approach to saving the world) or b) not know a damn thing (for security reasons of his role or whatever) Maybe Snape has a visceral response to the presence of someone who survived the AK - perhaps it represents or embodies something very unnatural to him. And that's an interesting thought. dan From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 17:39:50 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:39:50 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury ScreenSaver Download Shows MORE -- SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer" wrote: > I think that each of the scenes on the screensaver are from the cover of each of the adult Bloomsbury editions. Check out this page on > Bloomsbury's site. It shows each of the children's and the adults > versions next to each other. > Tonks: Oh, shoot. I knew it was too good to be true!! I saw that the children's screensaver was like that, but I didn't realize that the adult one was too. Bummer. Well back to the drawing board as they say. Such is the life of a detective. Tonks_op From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jun 19 17:42:47 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:42:47 -0000 Subject: Order Guard on that Fateful Night In-Reply-To: <20050618172829.27731.qmail@web26304.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130982 > Hells: > Dumbledore said that he gave the MoM an excuse as to why Arthur was > down in the DoM. His excuse must have been good because Arthur > didn't get any official backlash from it. I think he got the > ministry to stand guard or place additional security measures, after > all they wouldn't want people to know that a huge snake nearly > killed a staff member in the MoM. The Order wouldn't be necessary > (or able) to continue the guard in this case. Jen: I know it's true (about Arthur getting off) because the plot says so ;). But it still doesn't ring true for the continuity of OOTP. So Fudge suddenly believes a story Dumbledore feeds him, surely another 'whopper' because what else would explain a giant snake attacking Arthur in the most isolated and secretive part of the MOM? So Fudge buys the story, unlike all the *other* stories Dumbledore has told him since the end of GOF. OK. But there's no reason to see the giant snake inside the Ministry as anything other than a fluke if you don't believe LV is back. So it seems unlikely Fudge would provide extra security for that incident alone. And certainly not someone stationed outside the DOM. But back to the unanswered question--IF the Order was no longer guarding the door to the prophecy the night Harry & Co. visit the DOM, what was Dumbledore's back-up plan if the Occlumency lessons failed? He's a good strategist, leader of a rebel group; there was no plan B? Jen From darkthirty at shaw.ca Sun Jun 19 17:49:43 2005 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:49:43 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130983 Amanda: > And lastly, I think we are wrong to infer that Dumbledore knows everything that happened with Harry, Snape, and the Pensieve.... I think Snape just went to Dumbledore and said something like, "I'm sorry, every time I look at Harry I see James and I just can't handle it, I can't keep teaching him,it's giving me ulcers." I can't imagine Snape would want anyone to know any more about his private humiliation... dan: Regardless of what Dumbledore knows, the point is that we readers don't know enough about why Snape put those memories into the pensieve - they are hardly the most compromising one's in terms of Snape alluded to spy role, are they? Unless they hide something like that, or his spy role has to do with his rivalry with the marauders. The idea of the pensieve is associated with shame in this case - Snape's in the content and Harry's in the revelation about his father and his father's friends and in the prying into on discovery by Snape, and then Snape's again in that he is reminded that it was THIS memory he set aside (not a spy memory, say) which of course just directs the shame of both the original scene and the prying into it back on himself again. So, if Snape is "stern, implacable" father figure, the motivating force and the connection with Harry seems to be shame. Yikes. dan From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 19 18:21:06 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:21:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Very Elderly Wizards References: <1119184035.1597.34546.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002101c574fb$aa409660$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 130984 Dave wrote: >Just wondering -- If Dumbledore is circa 150, how old does that make >Prof. Marchbanks and the other OWL examiners?? It stretched the boundaries a bit, Marchbanks's revelation that she'd examined Dumbledore. I think that a lot of us had assumed that Dumbledore's age meant that wizarding folk lived about twice as long as Muggles. There is other canon to support reappraising that. I'm thinking of the description of Armando Dippet in CoS. He sounds very much older then than Dumbledore is now. If Dumbledore is around 150 at the start of the series, it means that he was born around 1840 and was therefore examined in the mid to late 1850s. Although examinations are carried out now by retired professors, that doesn't mean that that was always so. My own theory is that at the time Dumbledore took his exams, they were marked in-house. Let's wonder whether Marchbanks was round about MacGonagall's age when she examined him, that's around 70. That would place her year of birth round about 1790. It also suggests that wizarding folk can potentially live three times as long as Muggles. Barring potential accidents, Dumbledore could theoretically be headmaster for another 50 years or so and still remain hale. I doubt that the WW has any concept of retirement ages or old age pensions! hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 19 18:52:37 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:52:37 -0000 Subject: TBAY/Ring/Hagrid&MaraudrMap/Adults/GoodPlan?/Animagi/Devi'slSnare/Sirius/QWC Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130985 Neri TBAYed in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130839 : << Besides, JKR already told us that the Lestranges didn't know about the prophecy. >> Excuse me, can you give me the URL or other citation for that? Jim Potter seusilva quoted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130527 : << a large golden ring bearing the Black crest >> Usually a ring shows the shield of arms rather than the crest, but most people CALL the shield of arms 'crest'. I like to imagine that the Black shield of arms is either plain black or it's a black snake on a black background. (The latter is absolutely against the laws of heraldry, but since when do Dark wizards obey Muggle laws?) John Kearns wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130557 : << the first thing that popped into my mind was Hagrid's hut. Remember in PoA, Lupin describes how he was watching the Map and saw the trio enter Hagrid's hut, and then when they left, they were "accompanied by someone else (Wormtail)." The logical assumption is that the interior of Hagrid's hut is a 'dead zone' where the map doesn't work, or Lupin would have seen Pettigrew inside. This also would explain why Wormtail was hiding in the hut in the first place. He disappeared well after Harry learned who he was, and he knew he was in danger of being discovered on the map - particularly since, as Ron's pet, he would frequently have been very near Harry. So he sought out a hiding place where he knew the map wouldn't show him. He helped write it, after all. Presumably the map doesn't show the inside of the hut because the Marauders never went there themselves. Which makes sense - how many students have actually been in there, especially in the days before they had to hide from Blast-Ended Skrewts? >> I snipped so poorly because I agree with everything I quoted except I'm sure the Marauders were frequent guests in Hagrid's home (remember how affectionately he chuckled in memory of James and Sirius's trouble-making) and probably many students have been (consider the many parents who wrote letters demanding that DD keep Hagrid on despite Skeeter outing him as half-giant -- there is some indication that they loved him from their own school days). I've always assumed that the reason that the map didn't show the inside of Hagrid's hut was that the Marauders were respecting his privacy. Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130613 : << But Lupin was a grown man, >> No, he wasn't. None of them were. Being of legal adult age is not the same as being a grown man or woman. It appears that James and Lily were 19 when they married, 20 when they became parents, and 21 when they died. 18 - 19 used to be a terribly normal age to marry and 19 - 20 a terribly normal age to have one's first child, but all the 20 and 21 year olds that I've met since turning 25 (and I'm 47 now) are still children themselves (even Chris and Michelle who married at 18 and had Colleen when they were 19 and are pretty good parents), full of hope and naivete znd ignorance and either nervousness or arrogance... Gerry festuco wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130624 : << Actually it was a very good plan. The only problem was that the person the three of them trusted, just like he was trusted by the rest, including Dumbledore, was a traitor. If Peter had not been a traitor nothing would have gone wrong with this plan. >> Actually, I think it was a somewhat flawed plan in the first place. altho' Very brave of Sirius. He meant to be decoy/bait for LV; the bad guys who assumed he was the Secret Keeper would capture him and torture him to give up the secret, but even if they killed/destroyed him, he couldn't give them the Secret because he wasn't the Secret Keeper. But it didn't occur to him that he *could* tell them that Peter was the Secret Keeper *and* tell them where Peter was hiding. And whatever combination of Cruciatis, Imperius, Legilimency and Veritaserum they were using would override their impression that choosing a vulnerable weakling like Peter as Secret Keeper was too idiotic a thing for reasonably intelligent Potters to have done. labmystic predicted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130689 : << The trio will become animagi. Harry will be a stag, Hermione will be a unicorn, and Ron a weasel (fits the name right?) >> As Chancie wrote in post number 130972, according to JKR, Harry will not become an Animagus: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/109 9-pressclubtransc.htm << Sean Bullard question19 {24.56}: We're going to take a few more questions and um, the next one is: "Will Harry ever turn into a *shape-changer* like his father?" J.K. Rowling: No, Harry's not in training to be an animagus. If you ... unless you've read book 3, you won't know ... that's a wizard that ... it's very, very difficult to do. They, they ... learn to turn themselves into animals. No, Harry is not ... Harry's energies are going to be concentrated elsewhere and he's not going to have time to do that. He's got quite a full agenda coming up, poor, poor boy. >> Of course, I don't know how much we can trust her since she said in a chat years ago that the Bones killed by LV were Susan Bones' grandparents, and in OoP she wrote that they were her uncle and his family. A lot of people think that Harry's Animagus form would be a stag, but I like to think it would be a raven -- black-headed, flies, clever. Yes, James had those same characteristics and became a stag, but I think that was because of arrogance and show-off-ness that Harry lacks. I don't know if it is possible for an Animagus's animal form to be a magical beast, such as a unicorn or a phoenix. Alla wrote about Sirius in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130711 : << As to alcoholism and drugs, well, not that I am seriously opposed to them, but as you said yourself - there is really no canon to back it up ( at least there is possible hint for drugs, but not for alcoholism, IMO), therefore I cannot adopt it for now. >> There is just as much a possible hint for alcoholism: one time Harry notices an order of stale drink around Sirius. Altho' I think it was supposed to represent self-medicating his depression rather than to represent alcoholism. There are old threads debating that Sirius could not have been very drugged to recklessness and bad temper because Lupin and other people who knew Sirius better than we do would have noticed that he was acting out of character and tried to find out why. Alcoholism doesn't have that objection: his old friends would see clearly what was wrong. I don't know whether sitational alcohol abuse (attempting to self- medicate situational depression) is considered to be alcoholism. Karen the Unicorn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130934 : << I see Lily all over this. Am I wrong? >> You are right. Also when Harry told Sirius and Lupin not to kill Pettigrew but turn him over to the legal authorities. << Sirius is the first to yank out his wand...why is he so childish to let Snape provoke him so much with just words? >> First of all, Snape is very, very skilled at using words. He knows just what to say to hurt Sirius the most painfully. Second, it's not childishness, it's a cultural difference. Men being angered by mere words to the point of killing and dying was good etiquette for centuries, altho' usually in the form of a scheduled duel rather than a spontaneous brawl. One example that leaps to my mind is Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr. There are STILL cultures in this world where men being angered by mere words to the point of killing and dying in spontaneous brawls is considered properly masculine behavior. Natti wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130812 : << Why is Ron allowed to take two of his friends to the World Cup and none of his many siblings are allowed to take any -- especially considering Hermione doesn't even particularly like Quidditch? >> I have a theory that Arthur really only got ONE extra ticket and he told the kids still at home to choose whom to invite and they all agreed on Harry because he is the Gryffindor Seeker and it could be good for his game and therefore for Gryffindor victories for him to watch the best players compete. And I agree with Brent in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130866 that << Molly opted not to go and they had an extra ticket and that is how Hermione got to go >> except while Brent << would think Ron and/or Ginny lobbied for her to go >>, I think that Molly herself chose to give her ticket to Hermione because she was trying to match-make. But I must wave to Steve bboyminn's theory that it was Fudge the politician wanting to be seen with The Boy Who Lived. From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Sun Jun 19 07:45:56 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 07:45:56 -0000 Subject: SPOILER - (Images in Bloomsbury Screen Saver!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130986 > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > > > > JLV: > > I think the picture on the ring looks like a serpent > > on a shield, but it really is too fuzzy to tell. saieditor: > I think you are right, it is a bit fuzzy. > And it *could* be a serpent on a shield. Yeah...I can see a serpent on a shield...on a pillar? pot_of_harry From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Sun Jun 19 11:03:27 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:03:27 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury ScreenSaver Download Shows MORE -- SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130987 Tonks wrote: Spoiler Warning********************************************************* ***Spoiler S*P*O*I*L*E*R********************************* *********************************** *********************************************** > > It is the SS. And it disappears into the eye of one of the > snakes that are entwined on the wall with the vine on it. It > looks like the room that the snakes are in is somehow accessible > through the outside wall in the tower, on the right of the > second window. > > Didn't we decide that borage was a type of plant? Is that the > plant or vine on the wall? Or maybe the author's name means > nothing. Has anyone linked the two snakes on the wall/door to the two smoky snakes that came out of DD trinket in OOtP "but in essence divided?"? I remember a lot of talk about the trinket some time ago... As for Borage: It's an herb...I remember thinking about growing it many years ago and did a bit of research about it....the flowers can be used in salads and it's mainly used as an herbal tea....good for your memory and the effects is known to "give people courage", and therefore is known to be the drink of courage. pot_of_harry From sesshomiru25 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 19:40:37 2005 From: sesshomiru25 at yahoo.com (sesshomiru25) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:40:37 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore animagus theroy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130988 Has anyone ever thought that Dumbledore may be an animagus and his form may be a white owl, say "Hedgwig". This is just a theory but it would explain how Dumbledore knows a lot about what Harry does without using occulmency. "sesshomiru25" From sesshomiru25 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 19:42:45 2005 From: sesshomiru25 at yahoo.com (sesshomiru25) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:42:45 -0000 Subject: HBP possibility Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130989 I think that the HBP has not been a main character yet but he has been introduced and it is Dumbledore's brother. What do you think? "sesshomiru25" From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 20:25:48 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:25:48 -0000 Subject: TBAY/Ring/Hagrid&MaraudrMap/... - link and qute provided In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130990 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Neri TBAYed in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130839 : > > << Besides, JKR already told us that the Lestranges didn't know > about the prophecy. >> > > Excuse me, can you give me the URL or other citation for that? > Neri: Oops, forgot to include this link. Here it is: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/rumours_view.cfm?id=25 Section: Rumours The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him No, they weren't, they were very definitely sent after Neville's parents. I can't say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret. Neri From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 20:31:12 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:31:12 -0000 Subject: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (4 of 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130991 > Alla: > > Suppose that Longbottoms were indeed involved in the research of > that great power in the locked room in DoM ( is there anything in > canon which forbids the idea of aurors doing double duty so to > speak - namely doing research too, not only fighting on the > battlefield?) > > Yes, so they were all willing to deliver Voldie for Crouch or help > him vanish Voldie with the use of that mysterious power, etc, but > when they learn about prophecy and that it may mean that their son > could be the one involved in the project, they decided to back out. > Maybe that is why Bella and Co were able to get to them ,since > Crouch refused to give them extra security or something. > Neri: Well, assuming Frank and Alice knew about the prophecy (which we don't know for sure. For that matter, is there any canon that James and Lily knew it?) then after GH they would know that Harry is The One who had been marked, and therefore their little Neville is off the hook. But this certainly raises a difficulty: if Frank and Alice did know the prophecy, would they cooperate with Crouch on any plan that didn't involve Harry? But if Crouch's plan did involve Harry, why wouldn't DD be part of it? Hmm, this could have been a hole in the ELKINS AVENGED, but luckily we don't know if the Longbottoms knew the prophecy. In fact JKR specifically said in her FAQ answer regarding the Lestranges and Neville that it's a critical issue who was in on the prophecy. And First Mate Alla, please try not to rock the boat too much . If we're sunk even *before* the hurricane, Faith would never stop laughing at me. It would be impossible to conduct any conversation with her. For the record, I hereby declare that I don't know any canon whatsoever for the existence of the Ministry's plan to vanquish Voldemort. It's a totally unfounded assumption, which I adopted only because it seems to solve many other questions and mysteries in the Longbottoms' story. I can think of two non-canonical but compelling (IMHO) reasons for the existence of the Ministry plan. First, how could the Ministry *not* have any plan against the greatest enemy of the WW, especially with an ambitious zealot like Crouch Sr. heading the Department of Magical Law Enforcement? Second, would JKR waste a wonderful location such as the DoM for a single battle? The DoM, and especially the veil and the locked room, would surely play a key role in what's coming. Neri From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 20:59:23 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:59:23 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure (Continuing Saga of the Father Figure) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130992 > dan wrote: > Regardless of what Dumbledore knows, the point is that we readers > don't know enough about why Snape put those memories into the pensieve > - they are hardly the most compromising one's in terms of Snape > alluded to spy role, are they? Unless they hide something like that, > or his spy role has to do with his rivalry with the marauders. > > The idea of the pensieve is associated with shame in this case - > Snape's in the content and Harry's in the revelation about his father > and his father's friends and in the prying into on discovery by Snape, > and then Snape's again in that he is reminded that it was THIS memory > he set aside (not a spy memory, say) which of course just directs the > shame of both the original scene and the prying into it back on > himself again. > > So, if Snape is "stern, implacable" father figure, the motivating > force and the connection with Harry seems to be shame. > KarentheUnicorn's Reply (yes its long, so hex me): First off Maybe we should change the Father Figure to Dominate Male Figure, I think that would appease a lot of people that take issue with the word Father. A lot of people say Snape put that memory from the Occlumency scene there on purpose, but, I don't know, tis a good theory, but somehow the way the character of Snape appears to me, he is a person that values and wants Respect above everything else, perhaps he demands it in the classroom so much because it is possible something he never had. I don't think he would willingly let Harry see something that would so humiliate him, because he is demanding Sir/professor so much. And others have demanded it for him as well, Dumbledore and also I believe Molly also corrected Harry as well on that, wanting him to call Snape, Professor Snape. I can see why Dumbledore might do it, what is Molly's reason for doing it? I had not though of her as being so caught up in the sir, madam thing. She is in the Order, so, she must know quite a bit about Snape...meh..I guess that is stuff for later. If we look at the situation with the pensive, and the comments by Sirius as to Snape being a little oddball, we are led to believe Snape was not respected by very many students, one also might wonder was he even respected among Slytherin...So, I would think, if he is the kind of person that needs respect very badly to validate himself, then having that authority stepped on, or in any way undermined can make him very upset and very stressed/unreasonable, even if it is in his own imagination. I'll put my own self into this position; depending on who the person is, if said person Embarrasses or does something to publicly humiliate me, I get very hurt and defensive, I do know the difference between joking around and someone who is being crule...and I myself do remember the people that do those kinds of things to me. So, if I were to imagine myself in a situation like the pensive scene, I can see how I wouldn't exactly have James and Sirius on my christmas card list. I don't care if they are 16 year olds and just kids. Generally it has been my own personal experience those popular kids are the people that do the large amount of bulling. So, even if Snape was a little git back then, could it not be said they pushed him even further to the...meh..'dark side' (LOL). Here we have James and Sirius, the most popular boys at school at the time, the hero's, all the girls swoon...cheer, want to be their girlfriend, Griffendor's to the max, everyones favorite, LOVE LOVE LOVE for them. Is it not possible that James/Sirius's actions towards Snape could easily have pushed him towards being in with Lucius/Voldemort's crowd? OK, look at it this way, James and Sirius are supposed to be the good guys/ heros, the people that do no wrong, to Snape, they would not appear to be good guys, now would they?? Who does one turn too, when noone believes you when you say they are not good guys or heros, who sucks in destressed kids who are the rejected...people like Lucius and Voldemort..of course...meh..thats my own theory...but anyway. Plus I think a lot of people are thinking of Snape even in the pensive scene as Older Snape, if the scene is real, he's only around 16, young, foolish, while he is a death eater, how old is he...late teens early twenty's...How many boys are wreckless and do foolish stuff at that age...sheash is their a % on that?? Is 'A Lot' a good estimate? Now I remember reading either here or somewhere else, Snape was probably a little git then to, he deserved it. I will not really argue that so much, maybe he did. But, both Sirius and James attacked him, while James did most of it, Sirius was their to back James up. OK, I've also read a comment to the effect saying, well maybe Snape was tough and both were needed to handle him....hum, somehow that just doesn't jive well with me. Why would they attack him then?? If the scene is real, it didn't look like to me he was tougher. OK, I saw that once someone commented, Snape drew blood from James in the pensive scene, and it was said something to the affect he is obviously meaner because of that...um...I believe right before that the spell James used caused Snape to choke on soap suds, So, imagine yourself being held down, coking on soap suds you can't stop them....I believe choking is not exactly up their on the top ten of funny things to do to someone, I generally consider that just as violent as drawing blood...in this situation at least. Now, as far as spying goes, I do remember the comment that I can give to Sirius, that Snape always followed them around, to get them in trouble. To go back to what I wrote about, Snape's feelings that James and Sirius are not good guys, it can easily be attributed to, he wanted to get them in trouble because he might have had the desire to show everyone they were not "Wonderful Good Guys"... Now, we don't see Snape's actions, so, he was probably just as big of a git as James was, they were rivals so, one would view the other as pond scum, but we are talking about why Snape is the way he is and why he is a dominate figure in Harry's life, James the actual father is dead, so Harry needs substitute fathers...Snape is one, be it father, or just male figure. I'm not in any way cuting Snape any slack here on how he treats children, but I will use the first scene we see Harry and Snape together in the classroom as an example. Snape is grilling Harry on what he knows. I am sure, Snape is aware of all the talk, the whispers about the boy who lived coming to school, so regardless of how he might feel about James. It can easily be seen as Snape really actually might want to see what the boy knows, or size him up to show the rest of the class, just because he is though of as something special, I want the rest of you to not be distracted by "famous potter" Let me show you how smart he really is..etc etc. Now, Harry is thinking in his head in this scene, how does this man expect me to know the whole book already, well, sitting right beside you is Hermione G, she does, shes practicly jumping to answer Snape's question. Now, in my experience with school, some teachers never call on the person raising their hand, they get the person in the back sleeping, is that evil...meh, if you are the kid, yea. So, the fact that Harry is sitting beside someone that knows the answers, one can easily think Snape might consider, well, another griffendor knows the answer, how come mr. famous doesn't. If you move into this scene, then you will clearly see, Harry snarks back at Snape; Why don't you ask her...thus, drawing laughter from students....now, one can clearly imagine steam coming out of Snape's head at this point. Potter is telling me how to run my class and who to ask. One would imagine Snape would take away, 20 points, 10 points in the least for this cheekie backtalk, and undermining his authority in front of other students....meh..no, he takes away one point....One might even imagine that, this sort of backtalk might be exactly how James might have talked to teachers at some point, or even from the first, Perhaps James made comments to make the class room errupt into giggles, this would obviously reinforce Snapes opinion of Harry being just like James. Now, this is all wild speculation on my part, but, if you move further into the scene, we see, Neville screwing up, Snape turns on Harry and blames him saying something to the affect of, "Though he would make you look good if he got it wrong, did you?" Ok...I'm torn between why this happens, I can see two reasons Snape has this reaction, well three, but I'll stick with the two. First, we clearly get Neville into the story now, if one imagines that Snape knows the profecy or part of it, then he knows Neville is the other boy. While, I can't see how he would think Harry would know who Neville is, their is a common thread here between the two boys that we are all aware of now, but at the time of reading the first book we were not. So if you go back and look at it now, their seems to be more going on with that comment that just a nasty teacher. Neville is second place, because of Harry...etc etc. So, its reinforcing Snapes idea that Harry wants to be better than Neville and everyone else. Now, the other idea I have is, what if James did exactly this sort of thing in class with Snape, Did Slytherin and Griffendor have double potions together way back then, we might assume probably they did. Could James possibly have foiled a potion lesson for Snape in a similar manner by letting Snape screw up, or causing his lesson to fail in some way? So, again, Snape's opinion of Harry being like James is reinforced again....just on their first day together.... Again, all speculation on my part...meh..isn't this fun. Obviously Snape is coming to the wrong theory about Harry, I don't give him any cookies for acting like a git.... If he is as I said, someone who wants respect so badly, and to have some little kid come in and screw up your day, and not to mention its the son of the guy who humilated you way back when, well, it is easy to see who he acts like a jerk, not an excuse, just a reasoning why. Also I am reminded that Slytherin, before Harry came to school, was on top, they won the Quidditch cup a bunch of times in a row, did they also win the house cup too??? I can't remember, but I do remember the comment in the first book about Slytherin, sadly, I can't find it right now...So, Snape has been in first place for a while, one might imagine he is blaming Harry also for loosing him that dominate place on the Quidditch field, and possibly the house cup....meh...again, wild speculation on my part again. Me thinks Snape needs a wakeup call, I imagine it might be coming in book 6....but again, that is pure wild speculation on my part...Can that be a good prediction for the next book. Professor Snape, Your wake up call has arrived! (laughs) Wonders if anything I said amounts to anything, probably not, waits for answers in the next book...(bounces with excitment) Karen From t.forch at email.dk Sun Jun 19 21:05:54 2005 From: t.forch at email.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:05:54 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (4 of 4) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050619225811.01ddbf00@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 130993 At 20:31 19-06-05 +0000, nkafkafi wrote: >Neri: >Well, assuming Frank and Alice knew about the prophecy (which we don't >know for sure. For that matter, is there any canon that James and Lily >knew it?) I do not recall any such canon evidence. Nor has there, to the best of my knowledge, been any suggestion of additional precautions surrounding either Longbottoms or Potters from the time the Prophecy was made and until Dumbledore learned that Voldemort was after the Potters specifically -- only then were, as far as we know, James and Lily warned and protected. There has, AFAIK, been no suggestion at any time of any extra protections for the Longbottoms. I do assume that all members of the first Order of the Phoenix were, by default, rather well protected and were always alert to any (known) Death Eaters etc. This might mean that Dumbledore could allow himself to wait telling the parents about the danger to them. From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Sun Jun 19 21:43:16 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:43:16 -0000 Subject: FILK: Ozymandias Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130994 Alternative version of "Ozymandias", by Percy Bysshe Shelley, discovered engraved onto the side of a desk in Professor Binns' History of Magic Classroom. "Ozymandias" is, of course, a well-known spell (sometimes misspelled "Ozzymanjus"), which can be terrifically handy for redesigning the house. The effect is to age the charmed object by approximately 5,000 years in a little less than 5 seconds, with no need to hire a skip. It is, however, important that the misspelling is not allowed to affect pronunciation, as it completely changes the spell's effect, turning the charmed object into the roadie of a 5,000-year-old rock star with a craving for Sunny Delight. Dedicated to CMC and Ginger, Filkeurs extraordinaires, whose last few have been top-notch. I met a student from the trophy room Who said: Two vast and prolix lists of kids Are there, etched in stone. Near them in the gloom Half broke, a dusty trophy lies, whose cup, Ornate lip, and corroded silver bloom, Tell that its winner well his school did serve, Which yet survives, teaching the hoi-polloi, The Head who gave it, and the youth with nerve, And on the trophy's base these words appear: "My name is Tom, the orphan and Head Boy: Remember my designs, ye Mudbloods, and despair!" Nothing beside remains. Round the decay, Upholding glories past and ancient feats, The dusty cluttered shelves stretch far away. Dungrollin From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 21:54:26 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:54:26 -0000 Subject: Blonde wolves and ESE!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" wrote: > Tiger: > > You know, I think you're right about it not being necessarily in the > books. I know I've deduced it, or it's at least highly suggested. > From the following JKR quotes, you can see that she correlates them > though, I agree with you, I have not found a case where someone both > is an animagus and can conjure a patronus. > > TK -- TigerPatronus > > AOL Chat w JKR 19 Oct 2000: Does the animal one turns into as an > Animagi reflect your personality? JKR: Very well deduced, Narri! I > personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, > which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I > turned out to be a cockroach! > > JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004: kelly_holland: When > you turn into an Animagus, can you choose what animal you become? Or > does this get "assigned" to you? JK Rowling replies -> No, you can't > choose. You become the animal that suits you best. Imagine the > humiliation when you finally transform after years of study and find > that you most closely resemble a warthog. Meltowne: She is suggesting here that the animagus form represents the person's personality. Think about the animagi we know - McGonaggle, Rita Skeeter, and the Maruaders. Each of their forms tells us something about them, doesn't it. > Sunday 15 August 2004 J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival: > What form does Dumbledore's Patronus take? JKR: Good question. Can > anyone guess? You have had a clue. There was a little whisper there. > It is a phoenix, which is very representative of Dumbledore for > reasons that I am sure you can guess. She is again suggesting something about personality, but I don't think it is reflected the same way. Here we see DD's patronus as a phoenix, but I think that's because DD consider's the patronus to be protective. He has a deep trust for the pheonix, and knows it can save him. Harry's patronus takes one of his father's forms - he trusts his father to protect him. Of course that doesn't tell us much about the other characters' patronuses. From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 21:58:38 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:58:38 -0000 Subject: Clues from the Sorcerer's Stone - Does 1945=1997 ? (Part One) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130996 I have finally finished my reread of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone and have never been more convinced that the ultimate outcome to the series is prognosticated in this book. Here are some of the more interesting points: 1. Vernon Dursley never saw Harry as a baby (ss 4). --------------------------------------------------- It is entirely possible that Petunia has never seen Harry either since she despises Lily and James. This could be another reason that Dumbledore found it convenient and necessary to remove Harry from direct contact with the wizarding world - the wizard world may learn too much about Harry if they were closer to him, and Dumbledore to eventually defeat Voldemort he needs the Harry he helped create in one piece. 2. Has anyone wondered why McGonagall was at Privet Drive when Harry was delivered there? ---------------------------------------------------------- Why McGonagall? Does her skills as a transfiguration specialist have anything to do with her being there? or is she more involved with the Potters than we are aware of at this point. We know that James is competent at transfiguration as well - (ss 82)Lily's wand useful for charms, James' wand is useful for transfiguration 3. What might the inability for the Dursleys to change the appearance of Harry's hair imply?(ss 24) ------------------------------------------------------------ His Tonks-like skill may tell us a lot in the future. It may also tell us that his origin is not quite as "human" as it appears. (Manxmouse theory) When Hagrid fills Harry in on being a wizard and what it means, he says several very interesting thing that stuck out: 4. (SS 53) "How could a car crash kill Lily and James Potter? It's an outrage! A scandal!" ------------------------------------------------------------ Were Harry and Lily immortal? What would happen if an Avada Kedavra would be cast on an immortal? Was this why Voldemort didn't die and Harry survived? 5. (SS 55) "[vOLDEMORT] didn't dare try taking the school, not jus' then anyway." -------------------------------------------------------------- If not then, when? A few death eaters hidden by invisibility cloaks and with the Marauders Map could wreak havoc at Hogwarts once Dumbledore was gone. 6. (ss 55) "[Voldemort] probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with the Dark Side." ------------------------------------------------------------ This is the best quote yet to indicate that James and Lily {and Harry!} were up to their eyes in alchemy and all that it implies (immortality, creation of gold, etc.). 7. (ss 57) "Dunno if he had enough human in him left to die." - and repeated again in Harry's thoughts while he was talking to Firenze (ss 259) ---------------------------------------------------------------- 8.(ss 58) Hagrid to the Dursleys - "seven years [at Hogwarts] and he won't know himself" ----------------------------------------------------------- This is one of the better hints that Harry may indeed be occupied by the dark lord during his last year at hogwarts (Trichotomy theory) 9. The sorting hat's song .... (ss 117) "There's nothing hidden in your head The Sorting Hat can't see" and later ... (ss 121) "you could be great you know, it's all here in your head" ------------------------------------------------------------------ Yeah.....like the Dark Lord is... just biding his time.... 10. (ss 155) Hermione to Ron and Harry "... and you'll lose all the points I got from Professor McGonagall for knowing about Switching Spells" ------------------------------------------------------------- Switching spells are mentioned but never described - what are the consequences of a Switching Spell gone wrong? I always felt that Harry was hit by this spell rather than an AK spell at Godric's Hollow... 11. (ss 209) [Harry standing in front of the Mirror or Erised] "Mom?" he whispered."Dad?" They just looked at him smiling. -------------------------------------------------- Always an interesting scene ... never a confirmation ... and read #12 below .... 12. (ss 213) [Dumbledore finding Harry once again in front of the mirror... Dumbledore speaking] "It [the mirror] shows us nothing more or less than the deepest, most desperate desire of our hearts. You, who have never known your family, see them standing around you. Ronald Weasley, who has always been overshadowed by his brothers, sees himself standing alone, the best of all of them. {emphasis mine} HOWEVER, THIS MIRROR WILL GIVE US NEITHER KNOWLEDGE OR TRUTH. Men have wasted away before it, entranced by what they have seen, or been driven mad, NOT KNOWING IF WHAT IT SHOWS IS REAL OR EVEN POSSIBLE." ------------------------------------------------------------- Why neither knowledge nor truth? Isn't Harry looking at his family in the mirror? I am not so sure...... This whole passage is very spooky and open to interpretation. Maybe Harry doesn't have the family he thinks he does...... maybe the Manxmouse theory isnt so far fetched after all? 13. (SS 220) The [Sorcerer's Stone] will transform any metal into purge gold. It also produces the Elixir of Life, which will make the drinker immortal. ------------------------------------------------------------ The Flamels were immortal but seemingly chose to die ...... The sorcerer's stone could also have produced the Potter's fortune 14. (ss 220) Mr Flamel, who celebrated his 665th birthday last year, enjoys a quiet life in Devon with his wife Pernelle (658). ------------------------------------------------------------ Which in case anyone couldnt figure it out, if Flamel did die, he died at age 666 ....... 15. (ss 293-294) [Voldemort - emphasis mine] "... and once I have the Elixir of Life, I WILL BE ABLE TO CREATE A BODY OF MY OWN ..." -------------------------------------------------------------- If Voldemort can do it, why not Flamel or Dumbledore?????????? Why couldn't they create a "body" with special properties to house the child of Lily and James? We don't know much about exactly what properties would be useful to defeat Voldemort at this point but Harry clearly has all of his survival skills intact! This is the best hint that the manxmouse theory is possible and should not be ruled out. 13. (ss 103) DuMBLEDORE's Chocolate Frog Card Considered to be the greatest wizard of modern times, Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald (1945) .... for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood, ..... and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicholas Flamel - ---------------------------------------------------------- which tells me the following - 1945 is a VERY critical year in wizarding history since that is also the year when Tom Riddle disappeared from Hogwarts (SEE Voldemort's timeline from the lexicon http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/timeline_voldemort.html if Flamel had access to the sorcerer's stone so did Dumbledore... and suggests a possible link between dragon's blood and unicorn's blood ============================== In short, there are many more parallels in the lives(?) of Harry Potter and Tom Riddle than we have been told to this point... I will summarize the parallels of 1945 and 1997 in a later post tinglinger who has full presentations of the theories mentioned herein at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 21:59:43 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:59:43 -0000 Subject: Sirius-Barty parallels / Poisoned Sirius (was:Re: Sirius as Father Figure...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130997 >>Betsy Hp: >However, I still have problems linking Sirius' behavior to being kept in the Black house alone. For one thing it puts him in a weaker (character-wise) position than Barty Crouch, Jr.< >>Alla: >I am confused now. Are you saying that if out of two people who underwent through similar tragic circumstances only one person had depression as result of those circumstances, that makes such person to be the person of weaker character than the other?< Betsy Hp: Gosh, no! I was using the word "character" to mean, "one of the persons of a drama or novel" rather than "moral excellence and firmness". (quoted from Webster's 9th New Collegiate Dictionary) What I was suggesting is that if you have two characters jump from a great height (to use a highly simplistic example) and one is able to get up and keep running and the other is down for the count, the first is a stronger character within the story. More physical strength, greater athletic ability, etc. And that it is strange for an author to make her villain stronger (in that way) than her hero. Especially when the villain and hero share such parallels, IMO. >>Alla: >Right, so back to canon. I don't see many parallels between Barty Jr. and Sirius in a sense that Barty had just as many grounds to get depression as Sirius did.< Betsy Hp: The parallels I see are these: Both boys were attractive, charming and smart. Both boys come from pure-blooded families. Both turn against, and are disowned by, those families. Sirius' name has been burnt off his family tapestry; Barty is publically disowned by Crouch at the conclusion of his trial. "You are no son of mine! [...] I have no son!" (GoF scholastic hardback p.596) Both have support within those families (Sirius had his uncle, Barty his mother). Both manage the impossible and escape from Azkaban. Both are trapped in the family home they hate, unable to do anything in support of the cause they love. >>Alla: >Oh, and even if I were to concede that there are strong parallels between Barty Sr. and Sirius, which I don't ( I see some, but not that many), I would indeed argue that JKR shows us Sirius as MUCH more resilient out of two. >Sirius managed to get away from his family at sixteen, while Barty joined Voldie and Co as young man.< Betsy Hp: Canon tells us that Barty was sent to Azkaban at the young age of nineteen. Since he comes out of his home imprisonment fully knowledgable in the dark arts and quite comfortable casting Unforgivables I strongly suspect he learned these skills *prior* to getting caught at the Longbottom's. Which would mean that he joined Voldemort's group at a younger age... maybe when he was sixteen? >>Melanie: >We are severly underestimating Sirius the man is incredibly clever. Not only did he conceal the fact that he was infact an animagus, sneak into a castle, and escape Azkaban. All of this is just as interesting as the concealments that Barty Crouch did, inmho. So by you to say that Barty was in more of a sane mental state makes makes no sense to me.< Betsy Hp: Yes, both men are quite clever and strong wizards. But Barty is able to keep himself mentally together enough (while surrounded by evidence of those Death Eaters that walked free) to completely fool Dumbledore. Sirius, on the other hand, can't seem to keep it together enough to not viciously attack Harry in a manner clearly designed to wound deeply, or to provide Harry a modicum of comfort when Harry's afraid he's going mad, or to not sabatoge the lessons Hrry desperatly needs before they even begin. >>Melanie: >I would argue that it is possible that he could be drugged or even that it's just that he wasn't trying to be clever in book five. Who was he trying fool? Not really anyone....< Betsy Hp: If Sirius is aware of his own depression, he's trying to (or should be trying to) fool Harry. A parent shouldn't (in a perfect world) lay the burden of their own demons on their children's shoulders. Sirius, by acting in such an unstable manner, puts the burden of parenthood on Harry's shoulders. So Harry feels he must protect and nurture Sirius, when really it should have been the reverse. >>Finwitch: >I think the idea of Sirius being fed that plant that causes recklessness etc. IS true. It hit me right as Harry was reading about the plant - is someone feeding it to Sirius? >As for Kreacher doing it -- Sirius wanted breakfast and began calling Kreacher. So if Kreacher usually makes his food he certainly had opportunity. >For all we know, Narcissa gave it to Kreacher with instructions...< Betsy Hp: The first instance of unstable behavior, IMO, is the first fireplace chat Sirius has with Harry where he tells Harry that he's a lesser man than his father. And that came only a week after Harry et al left for Hogwarts. That's part of the reason I doubt Kreacher is the culprit, because it's before he's given the command to get out and goes for a nice little visit with Mrs. Malfoy. As to why no one else seems affected (I think Molly is acting well in character when she yells at Sirius, IMO, she's fond of shrieking, that one) by the poison, perhaps it's delivered in something only Sirius partakes of. (Maybe his private liquor stash? That would tie somethings together nicely...) >>Catlady: >There are old threads debating that Sirius could not have been very drugged to recklessness and bad temper because Lupin and other people who knew Sirius better than we do would have noticed that he was acting out of character and tried to find out why. Alcoholism doesn't have that objection: his old friends would see clearly what was wrong.< Betsy Hp: If the poison was delivered in his liquor, that could provide a readily available excuse for the irrational behavior. It also appears that Sirius wasn't noticably worsening. He'd behave badly, and then he'd seem to pull himself together until the next instance of unstable behaviour. There's also the strong possibility that it was one of his "old friends" doing the poisoning. If it wasn't Kreacher, than it must have been an Order member. And, as has been pointed out by many in this thread, Sirius certainly has good reason to fall apart. There may have been a reluctance to question why Sirius fell apart so badly on those sporadic occasions because so many felt bad and/or guilty over his false imprisonment. Betsy Hp From bccissell at hotmail.com Sun Jun 19 22:52:49 2005 From: bccissell at hotmail.com (bciss1) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:52:49 -0000 Subject: Why were they guarding the prophecy in the first place? In-Reply-To: <20050619143017.56467.qmail@web50505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Julie Rice wrote: > > Just because there wasn't a mention of someone > guarding the prophecy (and possibly being disposed of > before Harry and his group came) doesn't mean there > wasn't one. We just can't tell for sure. Bciss1 replies Sorry if I wasn't clear, this is exactly what I think. There probably was someone still guarding it somehow and that person was disposed of (as was the main Ministry guard at the front desk) and it wasn't important to the plot so it wasn't explained later. > Julie Ohio wrote> > The only people who could take the prophecy from the > shelf were the people the prophecy was about. So, > only Harry or Voldemort could have taken the prophecy. > AFter that, anyone could have destroyed it (as so > happened). So no one in the Order could have > destroyed it without getting Harry to take the > prophecy out. And considering that both Harry and > Dumbledore were not in favor at the ministry and the > ministry saw no reason to believe that Voldemort was > back, there was very little chance that the prophecy > could have been destroyed. Bciss1 replies True, no one but Harry or Voldemort could have removed it from the shelf, but I think that anyone could have blown it up. In OOTP Chapter 35 (when they find the right room in the Ministry and are trapped by the DE) in order to escape they knock the shelves down and shatter "a hundred glass spheres". So I would think that someone could have gone in there and cast a reducto spell at it. A good wizard might have managed to only destroy the one he was aiming at. From maidne at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 23:14:58 2005 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:14:58 -0000 Subject: HBP possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 130999 If Dumbledore's brother is a half blood prince, then wouldn't Dumbledore be one, too? Susan --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sesshomiru25" wrote: > I think that the HBP has not been a main character yet but he has > been introduced and it is Dumbledore's brother. What do you think? > > "sesshomiru25" From saavi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 23:35:53 2005 From: saavi at yahoo.com (saavi) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:35:53 -0000 Subject: "Reading" the books covers: some clues and possible spoilers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131000 P O S S I B L E * * * S P O I L E R I know I'm not the first one who theorizes about what can we "read" in the different versions of the "HP and the HBP" covers, but I just wanted to share my ideas. And please forget the grammar: my first language is Spanish. Now, about the images shown in the Bloomsbury (children edition) cover: ? When I look at them, I see fear in Harry's and Dumbledore's faces, so they must be in a battle and with possibilities to loose it. ? I can't see any fire coming out of Harry's wand, only from Dumbledore's. Besides, I don't think the fire is meant to attack, but to protect; otherwise it wouldn't be around Harry and Dumbledore, but directed toward an enemy. ? But then we see the joined hands with the same circles of fire around them. Maybe Dumbledore's powers are not enough to defeat their enemy (Voldy?). He needs to join powers with Harry and my guess is that Harry's powers must be unique and related with the green in his and Lily's eyes. And that takes us to the green light. ? Whatever is inside that cauldron/pensive, it has its own light (we can see how this light reflects itself against the boat). And I don't think that the container is the important object here, but the content: the green light or green fire. Let's call it the green fire. Could it be that Lily and Harry are the only ones who can access to the power of this green fire? Could it be that Voldy needs these powers too and that is why he was willing to forgive Lily's live? It would be too much of a coincidence for this fire to be green, just the same as Harry's and Lily's eyes. ? I also used to think that this green fire was in the chamber of secrets and maybe that the reason why Lily never used the fire against Voldy is that she didn't know where to find it. Or she didn't know that it existed :) ? Let's suppose for a minute that Lily (and the OOP members) did not reach the green fire because they didn't know how to get to the Chamber of Secrets. Now Harry can access the chamber and Dumbledore knows this. Then why didn't Dumbledore ask Harry to look after this green fire before? If you look at the US deluxe edition cover art of book six, you can see Harry and Dumbledore walking in a forest. A very dark and greenish forest. So, maybe the green fire (or thing) is not in the Chamber of Secrets, but in the forbidden forest. Until know, all the interesting things have been hidden there. ? So: Lily and the OOP members know about this green fire and its power, but they don't know how to get it. Here is where the HBP enters the scene. My guess is that the HBP is the only one who knows how to get to the green fire. And maybe the ring (the one in the Bloomsbury cover) belongs to him. ? That ring can be a clue of how to find the way to the green fire or a key to open the way that lead to the green fire (or stuff ). If you ask me, I think that ring is broken. I know many people see a lighting bolt or a snake in it, but to me it looks broken. Harry can expend the whole book trying to figure out how to make a broken ring work... after he finds out that the rings is good for something, of course. ? And finally, the cover for the British adult edition: we only see a really old book that (to me) looks a lot like a school text book. "Advanced potion making", by "Libalius Borage". The book has something like and old sticker in the upper side of the cover, the kind of sticker you use to put your name in your school books. But we cannot read any names in that sticker. Maybe the book belongs to the HBP and here we have a clue that this "prince" has advanced knowledge about potion making. Could it be Snape? Maybe, maybe someone older. And going back to that fire coming out of Dumbledore's wand: does anyone know what kind of core does Dumbledore's wand have? I bet it is a phoenix feather (not Fawkes, of course, but there must be more than one Phoenix.) And could it be possible that Dumbledore has the same powers as a Phoenix? After all his patronus is a phoenix (said by the mighty powerful JKR) Oh, and does anyone have the back of the US edition cover? I could only find the front. Very green cover, indeed. From fozzie60 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 23:11:07 2005 From: fozzie60 at yahoo.com (Sue) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:11:07 -0000 Subject: Clues from the Sorcerer's Stone - Does 1945=1997 ? (Part One) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131001 Doing my own pre-HBP rereads, it strikes me again as odd that if the baby HP is in soooooo much danger that he needs to be with the Muggles, why on earth would they leave him on the doorstep all night? DD left, McG left, Hagrid left, and HP was laying asleep on the doorstep all night until Petunia found him in the morning. The family blood protection doesn't go into effect until she "takes him in" so what protected him all that night before? Mrs Figg?? The Longbottoms were tortured AFTER LV disappeared, so the DEs are still out running around, PP and Sirius have not met up yet so why should baby Harry be assumed to be safe outside all night?? Ok, back to lurkdom Sue From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 00:58:38 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:58:38 -0000 Subject: HBP possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131002 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maidne" wrote: > If Dumbledore's brother is a half blood prince, then wouldn't > Dumbledore be one, too? Maybe he's Dumbledore's half-brother? The common parent being a witch or wizard, and the other parent being a muggle prince/princess? I don't think it's Aberforth, but I wouldn't discount it offhand. From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Jun 20 02:12:06 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:12:06 -0000 Subject: Harry and Advanced Potions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131003 Well, this one is definitely one of the most interesting and talked about subjects with relation to HBP. Will Harry be in Advanced Potions? If so, how does he get there? There are quite a few issues involved here. First, will Harry make an "O" on his potions OWL? Many people, including me, think that would amount to rank cheating on JKR's part. People just don't come up with superior test grades in classes they despise and in which they do not perform well, even IF the teacher isn't hovering over their shoulder and even IF they get a lucky break on the essay question. Secondly, will Snape be teaching potions? The only other place he's likely to go, assuming he's at Hogwarts at all, is DADA. If Dumbledore was worried about him in that position for so long, why would he give it to him now? The midst of a war is absolutely the worst time to have someone in such a key position you don't have absolute confidence in. If Harry doesn't make an "O" (an "E" I could believe, but not an "O") how will he get into the class? Will Dumbledore/McGonagall force Snape's hand, perhaps as retribution for the mess he made of Occlumency, or with the excuse that war requires special measures? Will Draco or another Slytherin need an exception forcing Snape to generally lower the bar? I think that last one is a real possibility. I would find it somewhat contrived, but not nearly so much as giving Harry on "O" on his potions OWL. How do we know that Harry still wants to take Advanced Potions? He's learned a lot since "Career Advice." Maybe being an auror isn't nearly so appealing anymore. And let's not forget the "I'll never forgive him" moment. I, for one, would find it completely unbelievable for Harry to get over that in the course of a summer. Why on earth would he want to be in Snape's presence? Could it be that Dumbledore insists Harry take potions? What would he do if Harry simply refused? DD's leverage ain't exactly what it used to be. Could it be that Harry refuses to take potions (or Snape refuses to let him in) but instead gets private tutoring? That would make a kind of sense, as it would be a way for Dumbledore to minimize friction by keeping Snape and Harry apart as much as possible. Who would do the tutoring? McGonagall? That would fit with the "if I have to coach you nightly" remark. Dumbledore himself? And there is the question of the Potions book on the UK adult cover. It would seem to indicate that advanced potions will be a part of the plot. But the potions book is ragged and coming to pieces. As many have remarked, Harry does not buy used books. Whose book is it, then? Snape's? Dumbledore's? Ron's? McGonagall's? Whose? I think that covers all the issues at present. Anything else I've forgotten? Lupinlore From derenmcc at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 01:32:25 2005 From: derenmcc at yahoo.com (derenmcc) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 01:32:25 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131004 Alla wrote: > Having said all this, I am arguing that EVEN IF Snape was an example > of professional behaviour throuhout Occlumency lessons, it was > already > too late. > > As somebody said earlier, Snape completely owns Harry/Snape problem. I would like to leave lurkdom to add my opinion to this. I am not excusing Snape's behavior, however, to excuse Harry's behavior based on Snape's treatment, (which is not anywhere near as bad as the Dursley's, btw) is inappropriate. I believe that Snape wanted to keep a professional distance between himself and Harry during the Occlumency lessons and that is why he insisted on being called "Professor" or "Sir." It's clear that Snape dislikes Harry, but Harry hasn't been fair to him either. Granted, Harry is a child and cannot be expected to think as an adult. But Harry knew he should have practiced and chose not to. Harry also knew it was wrong to look into the pensieve, but chose to do it anyway, to find out what Snape did not want him to see. He is responsible for his own behavior. Thanks, again I go to Lurk. derenmcc From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Jun 20 02:42:30 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:42:30 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131005 What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What characters do you really want to see interacting and how? Here's my list: 1. DD and Harry: "Harry, I'm very sorry ... Dursleys ... Snape... Umbridge...Dementors...general cold heartedness and stupidity...please forgive me." 2. DD and Harry: "Harry, the reason I trust Professor Snape is..." 3. Harry and Lupin: General bonding type stuff, or at least getting Lupin off his ass 4. Harry and Snape: Don't care what's said, so long as they both end up frothing at the mouth and have to be forcibly separated, preferably after Snape is hurt very badly 5. Ron and Hermione: Time to get this ship rolling... 6. Harry and Ginny: Ditto 7. Harry and Lupin: "Remus, tell me about my parents..." 8. Harry and Vernon: "Vernon, I'll be of age next year. Enjoy your last twelve months as a human." 9. Harry and Petunia: "I understand you took me in, Aunt Petunia. I certainly hope you don't expect me to thank you." 10. Harry and Minerva: "Any pieces of advice this year, Professor? The ones you gave me last year were SO wise and helpful." 11. Harry and Hermione: "Hermione, shut up." Lupinlore From thursdaymorning at outgun.com Mon Jun 20 01:39:38 2005 From: thursdaymorning at outgun.com (thursday morning) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:39:38 +0800 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure Message-ID: <20050620013938.0A9FD23D03@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131006 KarentheUnicorn: > the way the character of Snape appears to me, he is a person that > values and wants Respect above everything else, perhaps he demands > it in the classroom so much because it is possible something he > never had. I don't think he would willingly let Harry see something > that would so humiliate him, because he is demanding Sir/professor > so much. And others have demanded it for him as well, Dumbledore and > also I believe Molly also corrected Harry as well on that, wanting > him to call Snape, Professor Snape. I can see why Dumbledore might > do it, what is Molly's reason for doing it? I had not though of her > as being so caught up in the sir, madam thing. She is in the Order, > so, she must know quite a bit about Snape...meh..I guess that is > stuff for later. Not saying that Severus Snape doesn't want to be treated with respect but I've always thought this was also just teaching basic good manners. Growing up I was permitted to address adult friends of the family by their first names but all throughout my parents childhoods and back children neither addressed nor referred to adults in 'familiar terms.' Wizard culture is certainly old fashioned. More than once I've read a comparison to the Victorian era. Also, with the greater age to which wizards and witches live, the majority of them would have been raised with a very much stricter expectation of behavior than I was having been born during the flower child era. I think this does more to explain why *all* the adults (except Sirius of course) correct the children than the 'Snape is demanding respect he hasn't earned' theory. Even Lupin corrects Harry on this point. Thursday From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jun 20 02:54:49 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:54:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00db01c57543$6d0ca110$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 131007 What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What characters do you really want to see interacting and how? Here's my list: 1. DD and Harry: "Harry, I'm very sorry ... Dursleys ... Snape... Umbridge...Dementors...general cold heartedness and stupidity...please forgive me." 2. DD and Harry: "Harry, the reason I trust Professor Snape is..." 3. Harry and Lupin: General bonding type stuff, or at least getting Lupin off his ass 5. Ron and Hermione: Time to get this ship rolling... 6. Harry and Ginny: Ditto 7. Harry and Lupin: "Remus, tell me about my parents..." 11. Harry and Hermione: "Hermione, shut up." Lupinlore Sherry now: I left in some of your list, as my way of saying, I agree with those choices. Here are a few of my own. 1. The wizengamut and Fudge, "Hit the road Jack, and don't you come back no more, no more, no more no more!" 2. Harry to Molly, "Mrs. Weasley, I know you love me like one of your own, but I need to tell you I think it was really unkind of you to insult Sirius as you did last year, especially right in front of me. whatever you thought of his parenting skills, he was my guardian and I loved him and ..." Ok, ok. a boy probably isn't going to talk like that, but I've been rereading OOTP, and though I am generally a big molly supporter, I was disgusted with her behavior at the beginning of the book, in regard to Sirius and Harry. 3. Harry to Sirius, in a dream or however it could happen, "Sirius, I'm so sorry. It's all my fault." Then Sirius, "Harry, knock it off. It's my witch of a cousin's fault, not yours ..." and various helpful words to keep Harry's guilt down to a bare minimum. 4. Dumbledore to Umbridge in his capacity as head of the court, "Dolores, as soon as you get out of the locked ward, you'll be heading off to Azkaban. since you love dementors so much. Had any centaurs for visitors lately?" Ok, i've got a mean streak, but that woman deserves Azkaban as much as any death eater, and i wish I could be the one to lock her up! sherry Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 03:35:33 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 03:35:33 -0000 Subject: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131009 > Alla earlier: > > > Having said all this, I am arguing that EVEN IF Snape was an > example > > of professional behaviour throuhout Occlumency lessons, it was > > already > > too late. > > > > As somebody said earlier, Snape completely owns Harry/Snape problem. Derenmcc: > I would like to leave lurkdom to add my opinion to this. I am not > excusing Snape's behavior, however, to excuse Harry's behavior based > on Snape's treatment, (which is not anywhere near as bad as the > Dursley's, btw) is inappropriate. I believe that Snape wanted to > keep a professional distance between himself and Harry during the > Occlumency lessons and that is why he insisted on being > called "Professor" or "Sir." It's clear that Snape dislikes Harry, > but Harry hasn't been fair to him either. Granted, Harry is a child > and cannot be expected to think as an adult. But Harry knew he should > have practiced and chose not to. Harry also knew it was wrong to > look into the pensieve, but chose to do it anyway, to find out what > Snape did not want him to see. He is responsible for his own > behavior. Alla: Welcome, Derenmcc! I hope you don't mind me completely disagreeing with your post. :-) Well, actually not even completely disagreeing, more like clarifying what I said earlier. First, I also said it in my previous post - Harry made some mistakes during Occlumency disaster, so we are on the same page here. Second, I will not ever agree that Snape was exhibiting professional behaviour during Occlumency lessons as a whole, but even if he did, it would not really matter to me. I blame him for CREATING Harry's attitude about Snape in the first place. Harry arrived to Hogwarts knowing absolutely nothing about who Severus Snape is, but during five years Snape emotionally abused Harry on the day to day basis, SO of course Harry is responsible fo his own behaviour, but I find it very reasonable that Harry does not ... like him much. That's what I meant when I said ( or more like repeated another poster's words) that Snape owns Snape/Harry problem. I think that consequences of emotional abuse can be devastating (and yes, the issue whether Snape emotionally abuses Harry in the first place is always very debatable, but not for me) and during the Occlumency lessons Snape in the metaphorical sense ate the fruits of his labor during those five years. That is why I hope that Snape would get it in to his head eventually that his strategy of dealing with Harry was humongous mistake ( if he ever had any kind of strategy). I also hope that Dumbledore understood that his strategy of letting Snape do whatever he wants with Harry was a mistake, since it backfired so badly. Oh, and even though it would sound contradictory with my post, I do hope that we will get many Harry/Snape interactions in HBP, because I am sort of addicted to them. :-) That is just my opinion of course. Are you sure that you want to go back to lurking ? :-) Alla. From editor at texas.net Mon Jun 20 04:04:33 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:04:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure References: <20050620013938.0A9FD23D03@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <003001c5754d$2b498fe0$db58aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131010 Thursday: > Not saying that Severus Snape doesn't want to be treated with respect but I've always thought this was also just teaching basic good manners. Growing up I was permitted to address adult friends of the family by their first names but all throughout my parents childhoods and back children neither addressed nor referred to adults in 'familiar terms.' Wizard culture is certainly old fashioned. More than once I've read a comparison to the Victorian era. Also, with the greater age to which wizards and witches live, the majority of them would have been raised with a very much stricter expectation of behavior than I was having been born during the flower child era. I think this does more to explain why *all* the adults (except Sirius of course) correct the children than the 'Snape is demanding respect he hasn't earned' theory. Even Lupin corrects Harry on this point. Amanda: I agree, but I think there may be more to it. This has been a half-formed thought in my mind, which this particular tangent brought out: Why does Snape seem to insist on a correct mode of address at points in conversations in the Occlumency lessons when it seems absolutely irrelevant? I note that Snape derails Harry's inquiries right when it seems Harry might learn something concrete about what "our side" knows or believes. I doubt this is by accident. Snape is using a mechanism that is already well-established between the two of them, to control the information flow to Harry. Why? Because, as I've postulated before, Snape is very, very aware that there may be a third party to the conversation. Voldemort, as Snape tells Harry, is now aware of the connection, and it may not be certain how "clear" the channel is or how much Voldemort is tapping it. In addition, depending on what Snape's connection with Voldemort is now, there could be two possible avenues for Voldemort to "hear": he could access Harry's knowledge and memories (the channel we know), or he may be able to extract this information from Snape. To explain the latter: as I've postulated before, I believe Snape has been very careful over the years to keep his memories and emotional associations as "sortable" as possible. For example, I believe the reason Snape never eats at Grimmauld Place is because he does not want to have to keep track of stray memories of being there when he's practicing Occlumency with hostile parties. I believe one reason Snape is consistently horrible to Harry is that this behavior creates consistent memories and associations that Snape has established ways of handling during Occlumency. So--Snape redirects the conversations with Harry at key points, using an old familiar mechanism, to (a) keep Harry from becoming excited about an answer, as the excitement may attract Voldemort's attention "inside" Harry, and therefore basically telling Voldemort much about what we know of his movements and motives; and (b) to keep the conversation with Harry on a familiar, standard, level of interaction to avoid difficulties with Snape's own Occlumency later. ~Amanda > > Thursday > > > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 04:21:04 2005 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 04:21:04 -0000 Subject: Bode's visitor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131011 Hello everyone. I haven't posted much at all as of late, but I am in the midst of my pre-HBP reread and I came across a passage in OOTP that caught my eye and I wanted to see what the list thought about it, even if I'm only pointed towards the thousands of posts that have already beaten it to death. Anyway, in chapter 22, St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Malladies and Injuries, page 486 (US hardback), Harry and the Weasleys are going to visit Arthur at the hospital after he was bitten by Voldie!Snake. One of the wizards waiting in line at the Welcome Witch's desk is going to see Broderick Bode, the Unspeakable whom we later learn was Imperioed by Mr. Malfoy into taking the Prophecy from the shelf and is eventually throttled by an anonymously sent Devil's Snare presumably to keep him quiet about anything that he might know. The visitor is described as an "old and stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet". Now, what I want to know is, who the heck is this guy? It is possible, and entirely likely, that it is just one of Bode's relations come to cheer him up, but couldn't it also have been a disguised DE come to see how he's doing and whether or not he'll need to be finished off? Could it possibly be Wormtail under a supremely clever disguise? Anyway, I'm probably half-cracked trying to look for stuff I haven't spotted yet in my tenth reread, but I thought I'd bring it up and see what all you faithful listees have to say. Meri - so insanely psyched that there are only 25 days left!!!! From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 09:40:53 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:40:53 -0000 Subject: HBP possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131012 Susan wrote: > If Dumbledore's brother is a half blood prince, then wouldn't > Dumbledore be one, too? > > Susan Finwitch: Not if Albus Dumbledore as the older one(white haired people are usually older than grey-haired) is the half blood King :-) At least Albus is like a king in some aspects... Or if he and Aberforth are half-brothers and Aberforth's royalty or half-blood or both come from the side which Albus doesn't share. Or if that 'prince' does not refer to hereditary royalty but rather Aberforth is the Prince of beverages/goats/bezoars -- or whatever. It *could* be that both of them descend from king Arthur (don't forget that the name of Merlin keeps coming up AND the head of the Weasley family is apparently named after the legendary king) which would explain that royalty... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 10:09:00 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:09:00 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What characters do > you really want to see interacting and how? Here's my list: > > 1. DD and Harry: "Harry, I'm very sorry ... Dursleys ... Snape... > Umbridge...Dementors...general cold heartedness and stupidity...please > forgive me." > 2. DD and Harry: "Harry, the reason I trust Professor Snape is..." > 3. Harry and Lupin: General bonding type stuff, or at least getting > Lupin off his ass > 4. Harry and Snape: Don't care what's said, so long as they both end > up frothing at the mouth and have to be forcibly separated, preferably > after Snape is hurt very badly > 7. Harry and Lupin: "Remus, tell me about my parents..." > 8. Harry and Vernon: "Vernon, I'll be of age next year. Enjoy your > last twelve months as a human." > 9. Harry and Petunia: "I understand you took me in, Aunt Petunia. I > certainly hope you don't expect me to thank you." Finwitch: I left those to say how I agree -- particularly the comment to Vernon. Except that Harry's leaving earlier so that twelve months ought to be changed into one month in book 7. As for mine: 1. "And you say that like it's a bad thing" - what someone to say to Molly of how she view's the twins' lack of ambition (GoF) - or to Hermione and Harry's saving-people-thing(OOP). 2. (Ron, Harry, Luna or a person of some authority) and Hermione: "Hermione, you read too much. One day you'll burn your eyes out". (remember about all the dangerous books Ron listed out in CoS AND Hermione was the one attacked by the basilisk...) Hermione questions it and Ron (or Arthur) tells her that such books actually DO exist.. 3. Luna and Hermione - not so much as to what's said but Luna coming out the better of an arguement. (And likely, too -- one cannot argue with faith, after all.) 4. I definately want to see Harry & Sirius - be it a dream, discussion trough the Veil or whatever - oh, bring in James & Lily, too, if Sirius is fully and completely dead now... 3 things: 1.Harry's NOT responsible for Sirius' death - 2. he's absolutely NOT supposed go on using Unforgivables even on Death Eaters like Bellatrix... 3. what REALLY happened, the full story of when Sirius was sixteen, what Lupin calls "that trick" and Snape "attempt of murder" - and James saving their immediate enemy. 5. Dobby and Harry: "Dobby, how would you like to work for me?" 6. Dobby and Kreacher: That would be interesting conversation, no matter what they would say to each other... 7. Dobby & Mrs.Black's portrait: "You shall not insult Harry Potter" (and the painting is blasted out by house-elf magic) Finwitch From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Mon Jun 20 10:27:22 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:27:22 -0000 Subject: TBAY/Ring/Hagrid&MaraudrMap/Adults/GoodPlan?/Animagi/Devi'slSnare/Sirius/QWC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131014 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Actually, I think it was a somewhat flawed plan in the first place. > altho' Very brave of Sirius. He meant to be decoy/bait for LV; the bad > guys who assumed he was the Secret Keeper would capture him and > torture him to give up the secret, but even if they killed/destroyed > him, he couldn't give them the Secret because he wasn't the Secret > Keeper. But it didn't occur to him that he *could* tell them that > Peter was the Secret Keeper *and* tell them where Peter was hiding. > And whatever combination of Cruciatis, Imperius, Legilimency and > Veritaserum they were using would override their impression that > choosing a vulnerable weakling like Peter as Secret Keeper was too > idiotic a thing for reasonably intelligent Potters to have done. > Gerry But if they would know that Sirius disappeared and then Peter, they'd know their secret was discovered, they could find a new hiding place and a new secret keeper. If they discovered early enough Sirius was missing Peter could have found a new hiding place in time. Gerry From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 12:40:10 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:40:10 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <20050620013938.0A9FD23D03@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131015 Thursday wrote: > Not saying that Severus Snape doesn't want to be treated with respect but I've always thought this was also just teaching basic good manners. Growing up I was permitted to address adult friends of the family by their first names but all throughout my parents childhoods and back children neither addressed nor referred to adults in 'familiar terms.' Wizard culture is certainly old fashioned. More than once I've read a comparison to the Victorian era. Also, with the greater age to which wizards and witches live, the majority of them would have been raised with a very much stricter expectation of behavior than I was having been born during the flower child era. I think this does more to explain why *all* the adults (except Sirius of course) correct the children than the 'Snape is demanding respect he hasn't earned' theory. Even Lupin corrects Harry on this point. > > Thursday KarentheUnicorn's Reply: This is a good point, but, I don't remember so much the other children being corrected, can someone share canon...I missed I--and the Lupin one also.(hehe, I can't remember everything :-) I don't know, it just seems that if it was only because of the Wizard culture, it doesn't seem like it would be made a point of directly to Harry so readily, and rememberable, or at least rememberable by me, because generally I forget half of what I've read. Like the first book when Dumbledore is correcting Harry, it just doesn't seem very importaint to me for DD to be correcting Harry at that time about anything, since, the boy did just about get himself killed, and saved the day, and is just recovering....Dumbledore is quite a kind man, I believe he would have just let it slide at that point, but he doesn't. Ok, I suppose it can just be the uptight culture...meh, it just seems so in your face at that point. Also in that same scene Dumbledore is speeking kinda flippantly about Snapes personal grudes, "Its funny how people's minds work" We know he is talking about Snape....Call him Professor, but his mind works funny....hum...Somehow thats a little weird if you as me...but maybe I'm reading to much into it. Also, Lupin along with Molly are part of the order, I don't really remember Lupin being out right disrespectful to Snape in the book, but, I suppose I need to go back and read it again, I haven't read POA in a while. It seems Lupin would also be aware of what Snape has done for the order...meh...I don't know, it just seems so...noticable, as if, it means more than say: because its Snape doesn't mean you shouldn't call him sir or Professor, or, we don't respect him either, or we really don't think he deserves it, but you better call him sir or Professor. meh...prob I'm reading to much into it :-) KarentheUnicorn From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 13:02:25 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:02:25 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131016 "lupinlore" wrote: > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What characters do > you really want to see interacting and how? Here's my list: > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > 1. DD and Harry: "Harry, I'm very sorry ... Dursleys ... Snape... > Umbridge...Dementors...general cold heartedness and stupidity...please > forgive me." Answer: Harry Might Say: Yea, How about some answers OLD MAN! WOULD SOMEONE JUST TALK TO ME AND EXPLAIN SOMETHING!!!! or..something to that effect > 2. DD and Harry: "Harry, the reason I trust Professor Snape is..." Answer: Dumbledore Might Say: Okay Harry, I know He's really is a git, but he's our git, and he really makes great cheesecake!! Come on Harry, I'll have him make us one right now and prove it... > 3. Harry and Lupin: General bonding type stuff, or at least getting > Lupin off his ass Answer: Harry might ask: Ok, so, exactly why did you not take your potion that night in the shreeking shack, you know, it would have been a lot easier if you would work with us lupie. > 4. Harry and Snape: Don't care what's said, so long as they both end > up frothing at the mouth and have to be forcibly separated, preferably > after Snape is hurt very badly Answer: Snape Might Say to Lupinlore: See if I give you any of my delicious cheesecake Lupinlore, for that comment, I'll take, 20 points from you. Whats Potter going to do, give me a paper cut...HAY..get away from me you little brat..AYEEEE!..(hehe) > 5. Ron and Hermione: Time to get this ship rolling... Answer: Cover of Newspaper Daily Profet might reads: Two students Expelled, caught snogging in bushes by Professor Snape. The two students were the very valuable and desperatly needed friends of Harry Potter a Mr. Ron Weasley, and Miss Hermione Granger, we here at the paper wonder what Potter is going to do without the people who are always saving his neck, for whatever reason, the two snogging students had Cheese cake dumped on them...and Griffendor lost 200 points... > 6. Harry and Ginny: Ditto Answer: Two days later Paper reports Harry and Ginny expelled for likewise behavior, no cheesecake involved this time. > 7. Harry and Lupin: "Remus, tell me about my parents..." Answer: Everyone expect Harry Might Ask: Ok Harry, you blablabla so much about how you want your parents...waawaa..yet..You have not even asked eve a stupid question like..What was my mum's favorite color...favorite food, did she like flowers or candy...NOT ONE DAMN QUESTION ABOUT YOUR MUM! YOU LITTLE GIT. > 8. Harry and Vernon: "Vernon, I'll be of age next year. Enjoy your > last twelve months as a human." Answer: Waves the we hate Vernon Banner and cheers Harry ON...ou ou ou, make him a slug..make him a slug..NO...a donkey a donkey!! > 9. Harry and Petunia: "I understand you took me in, Aunt Petunia. I > certainly hope you don't expect me to thank you." Answer: Smack the evil aunt with a fish, Harry might say "HERE do your on dishes from now on, some blood relitive you are, I'D rather live with SNAPE at least he make good cheesecake!!" > 10. Harry and Minerva: "Any pieces of advice this year, Professor? The ones you gave me last year were SO wise and helpful." Answer: Harry might say: You are supposed to be my head of hourse right....so, is all I am to you is a good quidditch player?? You just want that cup don't you MINERVA...I'm switching to Slytherin! NANANA > > 11. Harry and Hermione: "Hermione, shut up." Answer: Snape: "Shut up you know it all" Ron: "Hermione, shut up..and kiss me." Harry: "STOP RAISING YOUR HAND, he isn't going to call on you IDIOT" Draco: I'm so stupid...I really do like you..but..wait..NO..I didn't just say that. Neville: Stop..YOUR NOT HELPING ME..SHUT UP you know it all. Genny: How did you get Victor as your boyfriend...he's kinda hot..Shut up hermione. Library Doors might have a sign on them that says: No Hermione, stop coming in here, you have read all the books I have and NO there are NO NEW BOOKS TODAY! OK...welding the comic sword of justice today! Muwhahahah KarentheUnicorn > > > Lupinlore From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Mon Jun 20 13:09:48 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:09:48 -0000 Subject: Sirius-Barty parallels / Poisoned Sirius (was:Re: Sirius as Father Figure...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy Hp: > Yes, both men are quite clever and strong wizards. But Barty is able > to keep himself mentally together enough (while surrounded by > evidence of those Death Eaters that walked free) to completely fool > Dumbledore. Sirius, on the other hand, can't seem to keep it > together enough to not viciously attack Harry in a manner clearly > designed to wound deeply, or to provide Harry a modicum of comfort > when Harry's afraid he's going mad, or to not sabatoge the lessons > Hrry desperatly needs before they even begin. > Gerry Well, there is a difference between suffering one year of dementors and twelve years. Remember, Barty was dying after just one year, while Sirius was still sane after twelve. He had a devoted house elf on his side who persuaded his father to give him treats etc. Barty did only manage to fight his father's imperius after twelve years.... And then only partially, he needed LV and Wormtail to really get out, thoug he was in excellent healt. Sirus managed to escape, while Barty was rescued by his mother. Barty was able to actively support his master in GoF, doing what he wanted to do and knowing his despised father was suppering (great moral boost), while Sirus was forced into inactivety in OoP. If Sirius could have had a more active role, he would have acted very differently. Barty was high in the game, no problems to be on his best there, he was working for everything he ever wanted. That does not take the same amount of strength that Sirius needed to go back into one prison after having spent twelve years innocently in another. Sirius is at least twice the man Barty was an probably much, much more. Gerry From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 20 14:08:00 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:08:00 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <003001c5754d$2b498fe0$db58aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131018 > Thursday: > > Not saying that Severus Snape doesn't want to be treated with respect but I've always thought this was also just teaching basic good manners. snip Potioncat: Whether or not in RL England kids address adults as "Sir" they certainly did in fictional schoolboy stories; and JKR uses many of the standard fictional approaches in this series. (Which is why, I think, Harry was left on a doorstep in a basket.) As this thread has developed, I also happened to read a section of dialogue in OoP between Draco and Snape (erm, Professor Snape) Just about every other word is "sir". Then I went back and looked at other times I could find conversation between them. Draco uses "sir" all the time. Here's two examples, just quoting Draco's lines: CoS, ch 15 "Sir," said Malfoy loudly. "Sir, why don't you apply for the headmaster's job?" .... "Yeah, right," said Malfoy, smirking,. "I expect you'd have Father's vote, sir, if you wanted to apply for the job--I'll tell Father you're the best teacher here, sir--" In Oop ch28 Harry and Professor Snape are about to start Occlumency when Draco bursts in: "Professor Snape, sir--oh--sorry--" ... "I didn't know." ... ..."It's Professor Umbridge, sir--she needs your help," said Malfoy. "They've found Montague,sir. He's turned up jameed inside a toilet on the fourth floor." ... "I don't know, sir, he's a bit confused." I can't find the conversation with Flitwick-- the time he breaks up a fight between Malfoy and Ron--to see how Draco addresses him. The first time Draco speaks to Lupin, he makes a point of using "Professor" but does so with "a tiny hint of sarcasm." I expect that Snape expects all his students to address him as "sir." In the example from OoP, Snape has even addressed Malfoy as "Draco" but the boy continues to use "sir". I think modern readers view the use of "sir and ma'am" as some sort of cruel manipulation by adults or some sort of brown-nosing by underlings, but I remember when sir and ma'am were expected and normal and no more uncomfortable to use than "please and thank you". > Amanda: > > I agree, but I think there may be more to it. This has been a half- formed > thought in my mind, which this particular tangent brought out: Why does > Snape seem to insist on a correct mode of address at points in conversations > in the Occlumency lessons when it seems absolutely irrelevant? > > I note that Snape derails Harry's inquiries right when it seems Harry might > learn something concrete about what "our side" knows or believes. I doubt > this is by accident. Snape is using a mechanism that is already > well-established between the two of them, to control the information flow to Harry. snip Potioncat: Oh, very good point! Count me in as a "me too". > From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 20 14:27:59 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050620142759.88590.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131019 KarentheUnicorn [snip] >it just seems so...noticable, as if, it means more than say: >because its Snape doesn't mean you shouldn't call him sir or >Professor, or, we don't respect him either, or we really don't >think he deserves it, but you better call him sir or Professor. >meh...prob I'm reading to much into it :-) I would also add that no one insists students call Hagrid by his new status of Professor. He has been given the position and assumedly if all were equal would also warrant the Sir or Professor courtesy. The emphasis on awarding Snape the courtesy and the lack of it for Hagrid has always interested me. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mysticowl at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 14:33:24 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:33:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <20050620142759.88590.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050620142759.88590.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131020 > I would also add that no one insists students call Hagrid by his new status of Professor. He has been given the position and assumedly if all were equal would also warrant the Sir or Professor courtesy. The emphasis on awarding Snape the courtesy and the lack of it for Hagrid has always interested me. > > Theotokos That's a very good point. On one hand, Hagrid is more "loyal and dedicated muscle" than "brains" and conventionally the latter brings more respect than the former. However, you got me thinking... could his half-bloodedness be the cause? There's certainly a strong theme of discrimation against non-humans by wizards throughout the books. The fountain in the ministry suggests to me that even those wizards that are not maliciously racists still consider themselves inherently better/smarter than non-humans. That could be the reason that even most "good" characters don't insist on the students showing respect to Hagrid. Alina. From mysticowl at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 15:01:33 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:01:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Advanced Potions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131021 > If Harry doesn't make an "O" (an "E" I could believe, but not an "O") > how will he get into the class? Will Dumbledore/McGonagall force > Snape's hand, perhaps as retribution for the mess he made of > Occlumency, or with the excuse that war requires special measures? > Will Draco or another Slytherin need an exception forcing Snape to > generally lower the bar? I think that last one is a real possibility. > I would find it somewhat contrived, but not nearly so much as giving > Harry on "O" on his potions OWL. > Lupinlore I have another possibility in mind, one that you haven't mentioned in your post. I think it's possible for Snape to suggest Harry join his class, even if Harry doesn't make the grade. I don't think Snape could have peace of mind if Harry isn't somehow under his watchful eye, both to torture and to protect (and I do believe that instances like Snape refereeing the Quidditch match in PS was purely for Harry's protection. Wizard's debt to James does not make it a selfish action IMO). Alina. From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 15:24:49 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:24:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why were they guarding the prophecy in the first place? In-Reply-To: References: <20050619143017.56467.qmail@web50505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131022 I think anyone could have destroyed the prophecy just by taking a hammer to it. However, I think there was some value in keeping it intact. As long as it was intact, Voldemort would come after it. If it were destroyed, he would go after someone else who had the information. By keeping it intact, the Order A) knows what Voldie is going after, and B) can set a trap for him. Think about it, what's the thing the Order wants the most? For the powers that be to recognize that Voldie is back. What better way than to have Voldie show up in the MOM? Dumbledore knew that eventually there would be some kind of shoedown at the ministry where Voldie and his death eaters would show up. They made sure they were around so that they could descend en masse and trap them there until Fudge et al. could see for themselves. -- Gregory Lynn From cat_kind at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 15:54:00 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:54:00 -0000 Subject: Harry and Advanced Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131023 lupinlore: > Secondly, will Snape be teaching potions? The only other place he's > likely to go, assuming he's at Hogwarts at all, is DADA. If > Dumbledore was worried about him in that position for so long, why > would he give it to him now? The midst of a war is absolutely the > worst time to have someone in such a key position you don't have > absolute confidence in. catkind: Well, I could see a couple of possible ways around this. Firstly, the middle of a war is a time you desperately need a competent defence teacher, especially when your prospective war hero is in the class. That might override Dumbledore's objection, if Snape actually is good at Defence. (And DD does seem to have a lot of confidence in Snape, for whatever reason. Apart from anything else, most of us seem to be assuming Snape's acting as a spy, and you don't employ someone as a spy unless you're very sure they're really on your side.) Or it might be that DD's problem is more about Snape, as an undercover Death Eater teaching the DEs' kids defence, being pressured into teaching them Dark Arts too. If his cover was blown over the summer, the problem might go away. Of course that would mean DD was already expecting the second war from square one, but is that ruled out? Though to be honest I just want Snape to teach defence for all the fun of the conflicts that would cause. catkind From peckham at cyberramp.net Mon Jun 20 16:51:46 2005 From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:51:46 -0000 Subject: Harry and Advanced Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > If Harry doesn't make an "O" (an "E" I could believe, but not an "O") > how will he get into the class? Will Dumbledore/McGonagall force > Snape's hand, perhaps as retribution for the mess he made of > Occlumency, or with the excuse that war requires special measures? > Will Draco or another Slytherin need an exception forcing Snape to > generally lower the bar? I think that last one is a real possibility. > I would find it somewhat contrived, but not nearly so much as giving > Harry on "O" on his potions OWL. Another possibility to consider is how many students are required for the class to "make"? While it is very likely that Hermione receives an "O" in potions, there are no other Gryffindor or Slytherin students that are sure "O" grades. As we have no direct evidence as to how well the Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff students in Harry's year are doing in potions, it is possible that they are not doing overly well as a group either. If you assume that five or more students are needed for the Advanced Potions class to meet minimum headcount requirements, and that no more than three students besides Hermione receive an "O" level on their potions OWL, then a situation were allowing students with an "E" level presents itself for the class to be held. If such a situation were to occur it would not be out of character for Dumbledore to encourage Snape to allow "E" level students into the class. Harry qualifing for Advanced Potions in such a manor would also have plot usefulness as it adds one more thing about Harry for Snape to hate. Allen From Cfitz812 at aol.com Mon Jun 20 17:00:44 2005 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:00:44 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What characters do > you really want to see interacting and how? Here's my list: > (snipping all but my favorite) > 8. Harry and Vernon: "Vernon, I'll be of age next year. Enjoy your > last twelve months as a human." > > > Lupinlore Claire's list: 1. Harry and Dudley (sort of going along with Lupinlore's Vernon conversation): "Dudders, you may be a BMOC (big man on campus), but one more nasty crack and you'll have the entire pig's body to deal with." 2. Harry and Neville: "What have you done with all those chewing gum wrappers?" 3. Harry and Flitwick: "Tell me about my mum's 'charmed' life." Claire From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 20 17:03:45 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:03:45 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Adult vs. Child Editions Message-ID: <42B6F6F1.000011.01332@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 131026 Excuse me for sounding so ignorant but until I joined this group I was not aware there were two editions of the Harry Potter books. What is the difference between the two? How do I know which edition I have? I'm in the US. Thanx, Donna [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 17:12:40 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:12:40 -0000 Subject: Adult vs. Child Editions In-Reply-To: <42B6F6F1.000011.01332@D33LDD51> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131027 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > Excuse me for sounding so ignorant but until I joined this group I was not > aware there were two editions of the Harry Potter books. What is the > difference between the two? How do I know which edition I have? I'm in the > US. > > Thanx, > > Donna Hi Donna, We Yanks only get one edition. (Well, two, hardback and paperback, but that's later.) The lucky Brits get a choice of covers so they don't look like they're reading a little kids' book. It's all just cover design, maybe some text formatting inside the book. But the poor Brits don't get the nifty artwork by Mary GrandPre. That's just for us. And, of course, in the Brit kids' book and the puritanical US edition, they delete all references to the hot snogging between Draco and Hermione that's been going on in all 5 books so far. TK -- TigerPatronus From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 20 17:25:06 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:25:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Adult vs. Child Editions In-Reply-To: <42B6F6F1.000011.01332@D33LDD51> References: <42B6F6F1.000011.01332@D33LDD51> Message-ID: <42B6FBF2.4070708@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131028 Donna wrote: >Excuse me for sounding so ignorant but until I joined this group I was not >aware there were two editions of the Harry Potter books. What is the >difference between the two? How do I know which edition I have? I'm in the >US. > > The difference is only the cover. It is 'housed' in a more 'mature' fashion, the idea I guess being that grown-ups can buy the book without feeling like they're buying a 'kid's book'. In all likelihood, you just have the 'regular' US editions. The adult editions are UK, and are noticeably more formal and mature. heather the buzzard From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 14:26:59 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050620142659.81144.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131029 --- lupinlore wrote: > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? > What characters do > you really want to see interacting and how? for me its: Harry to Petunia: "You treated me like dirt all my life--why the heck did you EVER take me in?" and "what's up with dissing my mum?" Harry and Snape: Don't really care what they say as long as they come to an understanding (after a SEVERE altercation) and tone down the hatred. Harry and Lupin: General bonding type bonding and lupin being able to help Harry to grieve over Sirius's lost. Harry to Malfoy; 'get a life dude!' laurie From electrawman2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 14:31:01 2005 From: electrawman2 at yahoo.com (electrawman2) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:31:01 -0000 Subject: Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131030 meriaugust wrote: > Anyway, in chapter 22, St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Malladies and > Injuries, page 486 (US hardback), Harry and the Weasleys are going to > visit Arthur at the hospital after he was bitten by Voldie!Snake. One > of the wizards waiting in line at the Welcome Witch's desk is going > to see Broderick Bode, the Unspeakable whom we later learn was > Imperioed by Mr. Malfoy into taking the Prophecy from the shelf and > is eventually throttled by an anonymously sent Devil's Snare > presumably to keep him quiet about anything that he might know. The > visitor is described as an "old and stooped wizard with a hearing > trumpet". > Now, what I want to know is, who the heck is this guy? (SNIP REMAINDER) I assumed it was Nott, SR, actually. IN GOF, pg 651 (American Version) As Voldemort is walking around the circle of Death Eaters he says, "The same goes for you, Nott," said Voldemort quietly a he walked past a stooped figure in Mr. Goyle's shadows. Also, I believe (can't find my book right now) that he's described as a stooped figure in the very end of OoTP when they're in the DoM. From hackett1171 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 17:40:12 2005 From: hackett1171 at yahoo.com (kim hagen) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: <20050620142659.81144.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050620174012.89447.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131031 lupinlore wrote: > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? > What characters do > you really want to see interacting and how? I would love to see Harry and Petunia: I cant believe your a witch and you treat me like dirt and your disgusted by my mom or "Your are Squibb" Hugs, Kim, CJ, & Lily From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 20 17:58:19 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:58:19 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: <20050620142659.81144.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131032 Voldemort to Harry: Harry I can see you were right, you were right about everything. I can't thank you enough for returning my lost little puppy, Skippy, to me. You've taught me the true meaning of friendship and the true meaning of Christmas too. I know now I've made some poor decisions in my life. Harry, I'm sorry I tortured you and murdered your parents, I don't think that was a very nice thing to do, I really don't. Harry to Voldemort: Ah, forget it you knucklehead, none of us are perfect we all make mistakes. Eggplant From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 20 18:05:10 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:05:10 -0000 Subject: Harry's potential father figures (was Re: Snape as father figure) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131033 Pippin previously: > > IMO, Harry's challenge is to grow into someone who could be a > > capable father himself despite having lost the good father > > he had in James. That means he has to winnow the good > > from the bad in all his father figures, Snape included. Lupinlore: > Once again, I disagree completely. I think the "multiple father figure" approach, while very interesting and clever, amounts to overanalyzing badly when you link it to "Harry's challenge." Harry's challenge is to defeat Voldemort and live to tell about it. I acknowledge that a search for a father figure is a part of Harry's quest (JKR herself has said so). However, I think that describes an aspect of his character and personality (a very believable one considering his history), not the central challenge he faces. Pippin: To me, that's like saying the central challenge of Harry's education is to pass his NEWTs. He needs to pass his NEWTs, but only because that will prove he's become a very capable wizard. In the same way, defeating Voldemort will prove that he's become a very capable adult human being, in contrast to Voldemort, who is neither adult nor human. I'm sure that JKR won't cheat us of the blazing wands confrontation most of us want, but I don't think that's going to be how Harry *wins*. In every book so far Harry has learned to replace a childish attitude or behavior with a more mature one, which, almost incidentally, allows him to survive the final confrontation. I want him to be able to do all this the way he's done it all along, that is, despite being disappointed in his father figures. I want to see him start relating to Snape as an adult, which is not, IMO, "I'll display mature behavior when he does." It's "I don't need Snape to be mature about me in order to be mature about him. I am going to be fair and objective, not because it's something Snape deserves, but because I can't be fair if I'm not objective, and I won't be a fair person if I only treat some people fairly." And I think it will be a revelation to Snape if Harry treats him this way. I would like to see Harry realize that he doesn't need to punish his oppressors to feel empowered against them. And that will be a revelation too. Lupinlore: > I tend to agree that Harry will not have a single "father figure" in > the classic sense. That does not mean that there will not be > development, and clarification, in some of the potential "paternal" > relationships he does have. As I say, Dumbledore has perhaps the most potential for growth in this aspect of his characterization, and Lupin certainly has the most need, as a character, for such development. If, as the veils of mystery surrounding so much of the plot and characters fall away, these relationships do not show further development, it will be very sad. Such a wastage of potential would, unfortunately, be true to life, but not at all pleasant or interesting to read about. That, I think, would come close to "spoiling the story from the reader's point of view" -- at least from the point of view of this reader. > Pippin: I think it's Snape who will reveal unexpected potential, while Lupin will be seen to have wasted his, just as he wasted his opportunity to be DADA teacher. But the story is about the kids, as Jo keeps saying--IMO, for Harry to transform any of the adults in some Pollyanna-ish way would be jumping the shark*. It seems to me some readers feel the absence of a happy childhood so keenly that they want to keep Harry a child into what the WW considers adulthood so that he could have a chance to experience it, but I think Dumbledore's behavior in OOP showed us the folly of this. Pippin * from television -- the moment, often marked by a radical plot-twist, when a fan realizes that a series has gone into irretrievable decline. From acoteucla at hotmail.com Mon Jun 20 18:10:58 2005 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:10:58 -0000 Subject: Harry and Advanced Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131034 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > There are quite a few issues involved here. First, will Harry make an > "O" on his potions OWL? Many people, including me, think that would > amount to rank cheating on JKR's part. People just don't come up with > superior test grades in classes they despise and in which they do not > perform well, even IF the teacher isn't hovering over their shoulder > and even IF they get a lucky break on the essay question. There was a teacher in my high school who taught AP Biology. His philosophy was to make the class so hard that the AP test was a cakewalk by comparison. Students hated him, hated the class, got horrible grades in the class... but over 80% of them got a 5 on the AP test (the highest grade possible). When using Hogwart students to determine the curve, I would agree that Harry receiving an "O" would be somewhat ridiculous. But I think that Hogwart students overall are going to be very pleasantly surprised with their test results. Snape has extraordinarily high standards, and it is to his standards that we are ranking Harry. But Snape's standards are not the standards of the OWL testing committee. From alishak at spu.edu Mon Jun 20 18:57:34 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:57:34 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What characters do > you really want to see interacting and how? Here's my list: > > 2. DD and Harry: "Harry, the reason I trust Professor Snape is..." If we're going to see the answer to this question, it would have to be more of Snape to Harry: "The reason DD trusts me is..." Remember DD already told Harry that that information was between him and Snape. > 5. Ron and Hermione: Time to get this ship rolling... Hear, hear! > 6. Harry and Ginny: Ditto I'd wait 'til book 7 for this > 7. Harry and Lupin: "Remus, tell me about my parents..." I'd really like him to start asking someone about his mum. -Alisha From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 19:12:07 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050620191207.77661.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131036 Dumbledore to Harry: All about Lily, James, and Sirius during the first Voldemort war. Remus to Severus: The truth about "The Prank", James involvement and why Sirius did it Severus and Harry: We don't have to like each other, but at least we can respect each other and work together Harry to the members of the OoP: Tell me PLEASE more about my parents. For the entire Discussion go to message # 117371 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/117371 Juli __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 20 18:27:58 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:27:58 +0100 Subject: wizards' owls Message-ID: <000501c575c5$c9d34340$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 131037 I've just started PoA again and in Chapter 1, 'Owl Post', I notice that as far as Harry was aware, Hedwick was 'off hunting', yet she turned up with Hermione's birthday present . Hermione was in France at the time and commented in her letter that she'd been worried as to how she was going to get his present to him, but then, as she added, Hedwick turned up. Hermione said she thought Hedwick was making sure Harry got a birthday present. Apart from this event, all other reference made to owl posts is of wizards sending letters or packages to people, so it has made me wonder if, in the WW, owls did have a concern about their owners, especially those living in similar muggle situations to Harry. Derek From kcartweel at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 18:08:31 2005 From: kcartweel at yahoo.com (kcartweel) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:08:31 -0000 Subject: Harry and Advanced Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131038 Lupinlore wrote: And there is the question of the Potions book on the UK adult cover. > It would seem to indicate that advanced potions will be a part of the > plot. But the potions book is ragged and coming to pieces. As many > have remarked, Harry does not buy used books. Whose book is it, then? > Snape's? Dumbledore's? Ron's? McGonagall's? Whose? > > I think that covers all the issues at present. Anything else I've > forgotten? > > I thought that the second hand falling apart look of the book meant that it was very rare, not cheap. I don't think that Potions would be the same without Snape teaching it so I really can't believe that he would not teach it. I also don't think that Harry managed even an "E," I mean he really isn't that good, is he? On the other hand, if all of the grades are on a curve then it is possible that his was raised up to an O. For the IB diploma (anyone heard of it?) The highest test grade is a 7, but in such classes as higher level physics you only need a high C to get the 7. Perhaps potions is like that. Also, I don't think that JKR would take the snape/harry interaction out of the books. ~Kcartweel (25 days!) From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 20 15:12:21 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:12:21 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <20050620142759.88590.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131039 Theotokos wrote: > I would also add that no one insists students call Hagrid by his new status of Professor. He has been given the position and assumedly if all were equal would also warrant the Sir or Professor courtesy. The emphasis on awarding Snape the courtesy and the lack of it for Hagrid has always interested me. > Potioncat: Early on Hagrid told Harry to call him Hagrid. That's up the adult, not to the child. I don't think Lupin insists on being called "sir" either. I went back and read the Patronus lesson chapter. Harry never uses "sir" to Lupin. The one time he speaks directly, he uses "Professor Lupin" but all other questions, answers and comments are without any sort of special address. I don't think we have any situations where Harry has referred to "McGonagall" or "Lupin" in front of anyone else to be or not to be corrected. Although IIRC, Percy once refers to "Dumbledore" in his home without correction. Potioncat From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 19:43:48 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] wizards' owls In-Reply-To: <000501c575c5$c9d34340$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: <20050620194348.87980.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131040 --- Derek Thorburn wrote: ...edited... Hermione said she thought Hedwick was making sure Harry got a birthday present. Apart from this event, all other reference made to owl posts is of wizards sending letters or packages to people, so it has made me wonder if, in the WW, owls did have a concern about their owners, especially those living in similar muggle situations to Harry. Juli: I think owls are just like any other pet you may have, they care for you as you care for them, apparently owls are very intelligent (at least Hedgwig). Hedwig got mad at Harry in GoF when he sent an other owl with a message to Sirius, she didn't like the tropical birds Sirius sent Harry in GoF, He helped a school owl carry Eroll... Juli __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Jun 20 20:01:11 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:01:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's potential father figures (was Re: Snape as father figure) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131041 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > I want to see him start relating to Snape as an adult, which is not, > IMO, "I'll display mature behavior when he does." It's "I don't > need Snape to be mature about me in order to be mature > about him. I am going to be fair and objective, not because it's > something Snape deserves, but because I can't be fair if I'm > not objective, and I won't be a fair person if I only treat some > people fairly." And I think it will be a revelation to Snape if > Harry treats him this way. > > I would like to see Harry realize that he doesn't need to punish his > oppressors to feel empowered against them. And that will be a > revelation too. That would be...insipid. Sunday school lessons have no place in non- religious literature. Of course, the extent to which this is a non- religious story is itself a matter of debate. In any case, this would turn the Potter story into an After School Special, which would be seriously revolting. > > > > > Pippin: > I think it's Snape who will reveal unexpected potential, while Lupin > will be seen to have wasted his, just as he wasted his opportunity > to be DADA teacher. But the story is about the kids, as Jo keeps > saying--IMO, for Harry to transform any of the adults in > some Pollyanna-ish way would be jumping the shark*. > > It seems to me some readers feel the absence of a > happy childhood so keenly that they want to keep Harry a > child into what the WW considers adulthood so that he could have > a chance to experience it, but I think Dumbledore's behavior in > OOP showed us the folly of this. > Well, I would say that Dumbledore's behavior shows the folly of secrecy, which is generally not a good thing in a relationship, paternal or otherwise. Childhood, per se, has nothing much to do with paternal relationships. One can have a healthy father figure well into adulthood. As for jumping the shark, I would say that if this turns out to be nothing more than "orphan grows up well despite being treated badly by adults," there won't be a shark tank to jump, because the main storyline will be so pitiful that it would be hard to make it any sillier. Lupinlore From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 20 20:08:02 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:08:02 -0000 Subject: Harry and Advanced Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131042 Lupinlore wrote: > I think that covers all the issues at present. Anything else I've > forgotten? Potioncat: How about remedial potions over the summer? and taking the OWL exam over? Are RL students ever allowed to re-take the corresponding test? OK, I've got it. :p Neither Draco nor Harry earn an O. So both end up at Snape manor for lessons. We'll read about it in Draco's Detour. Followed, no doubt by the chapter: Snape's Drinking Problem. In another post someone else asked if very many students would get an O. But based on other hints in the books, I think quite a few will. And a great deal of them will earn at least an A. And, one more thought. I know she's been at it for a long time, but McG certainly knows a lot about Auror requirements. She was explaining the courses and how the knowledge would be used as if she was very familiar with Auror work. From arolls at igc.org Mon Jun 20 20:21:01 2005 From: arolls at igc.org (algnash) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:21:01 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131043 Lupinlore: > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What > characters do you really want to see interacting and how? Neville to Bellatrix: "Eat this, Bella!" (applies Unforgivable) Bellatrix: "You can't do it, Peabrain, you have to really *want* to hurt me..." Neville: "Heh, heh..." Bella: "AAAaaaaargh!" Algnash From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 20 21:05:13 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:05:13 -0000 Subject: Harry's potential father figures (was Re: Snape as father figure) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131044 Pippin: > I want to see him start relating to Snape as an adult, And I think it will be a revelation to Snape if > > Harry treats him this way. > > > > I would like to see Harry realize that he doesn't need to punish > his oppressors to feel empowered against them. And that will be a > > revelation too. > Lupinlore: > That would be...insipid. Sunday school lessons have no place in non- > religious literature. Of course, the extent to which this is a non- > religious story is itself a matter of debate. In any case, this > would turn the Potter story into an After School Special, which > would be seriously revolting. Pippin: I'm not sure what you mean by Sunday school lessons and After School Specials. The Sunday school I attended was more on the order of " the wicked will get what's coming to them" and I've never watched an After School Special. I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious as to what in canon you feel supports the idea that Harry will only feel truly powerful when he's made Snape suffer, if that's what you're getting at. The punishers and would-be punishers, Voldemort, Snape,the Dursleys, Sirius and Lupin, Filch, all seem to be acting from a sense of weakness and disempowerment. But as for the place of religious themes in popular literature, have you looked at the NYTimes best-seller list lately? (Discussion of this not related to canon should go to OT-Chatter) Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 21:36:19 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:36:19 -0000 Subject: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131045 > Pippin: I would like to see Harry realize that he doesn't need to punish his oppressors to feel empowered against them. And that will be a revelation too. > > > Lupinlore: That would be...insipid. Sunday school lessons have no place in non- religious literature. Of course, the extent to which this is a non-religious story is itself a matter of debate. In any case, this would turn the Potter story into an After School Special, which would be seriously revolting. > > Pippin: > > I'm not sure what you mean by Sunday school lessons and After > School Specials. The Sunday school I attended was more on the > order of " the wicked will get what's coming to them" and I've > never watched an After School Special. I'm not being snarky, > I'm genuinely curious as to what in canon you feel supports the > idea that Harry will only feel truly powerful when he's made > Snape suffer, if that's what you're getting at. > > The punishers and would-be punishers, Voldemort, > Snape,the Dursleys, Sirius and Lupin, Filch, all seem to be acting > from a sense of weakness and disempowerment. Alla: Again, I may be wrong, Pippin, but I think Lupinlore thought that you were arguing religious aspect of forgiveness and that is why he brought up after school special. I do think that JKR is influenced by Christian ideas, BUT I also think that she is influenced by MANY other ideas ( religious or not) including secular humanism, etc. What I would agree with Lupinlore though is not liking much the ending, if it will end up to be word by word allegory of the Bible, for example. You know, for example if as someone suggested earlier that Ron will take the role of Juda, literally, Harry will take the role of Jesus, literally, etc,etc. The good example will be much brought up LOTR and "Chronicles of Narnia" I love LOTR. I don't think that anybody would argue that Tolkien was very much influenced by Christian ideas, right? But it is very subtly done in his book, IMO. To tell you the truth, till I started reading books about Tolkien, I had no idea that he was influenced by Christian ideas. At the same time, I could not finish "Narnia", I just could not, no matter how well it was written. I felt that author was beating me over the head with the baseball bat on where he stands, etc. I do not like that and I hope Harry Potter will not end up like that. Now, would I mind seeing some cristian metaphorical language, ideas? Of course not, I love them and I feel that some of them are already there, BUT going back to Harry/Snape, I feel that simple forgiveness, without retribution first will not work for me. I do NOT mind Harry being a better person and treating Snape better than he treated the boy all these years, but my basic sense of fairness as reader will rebel if I will read about forgiveness first, without Snape getting his due (it could be in the metaphorical sense, it could be not necessarily from Harry - another Snape as boggart scene or something like that for example will work perfectly to me. :- )) first. SO, to answer your question, I don't think that it would make Harry more powerful if he makes Snape suffer, BUT I do think it will be unfair ( IMO as a reader) if Snape will not suffer at least something for all he did. Of course, it all goes back to whether you view Snape's actions towards Harry as evil ( everyday evil, so to speak). If you don't, you definitely do not see the need for Snape to pay for them. I do view them as evil therefore I want Snape to see the error of his ways before Harry forgives him, but of course it may not be true and Harry will simply forgive him and that would be it. I guess I would be able to live with it, but I really prefer to see at least some kind of retribution done first. Just my opinion, Alla. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Mon Jun 20 21:41:58 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:41:58 -0000 Subject: Not letting go of the past In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131046 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hettiebe" wrote: > When I was at school I suffered from an amount of bullying. I wasn't > exceptional and, depending on how you quantify it, I think at some > time everybody goes through this. Snip > > So much for letting go of the past. What I really don't understand is > the immaturity of Snape, Sirius, and, to a certain extent, Lupin in > continuing their feuds from their schooldays. From my own personal > experience I would think that they would want to move on and, after > all, they are supposed to be on the same side now and the issues are > life and death. Gerry This is an old post, but I still want to reply to it, because I think you missed the point. From what I read in your post you do not have much experience with bullying, lucky for you. Real bullying is not a bit of names calling, it is not someting that everybody goes through. Being bullied is continously being picked at whatever you do, wherever you are, name calling which goes for the maximum of hurt. Using every means to make you cry or angry and having fun if you do. There are also the threaths, destroying of personal stuff and often real physical violence. It often takes years and years and years and only stops when the victim leaves school and it can actually destroy people. I remember a television program about bullying where there were victims as well as perpetrators. People who were recent victims and adults who were victims in their youth. And the very scary thing was that I could point them out, each and every one of them. They were victims, there was something destroyed in them. It was awful to see. If Snape's memories can be seen as general depictions of his life, it is clear that he was being bullied for all his Hogwart years. And that he tried everything to get even. If the memories of his home life are also representative of that situation, then there was nothing at all to compensate for the time he had at school. No wonder he cannot let go of the past. He would need professional help for that. As for the other two: seven years of very real hatred, and current hatred make it not easy to let go. Gerry From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 21:44:40 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:44:40 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: <20050620191207.77661.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131047 Harry stops whatever he is doing and looks up right into the face of *you* the reader and say: "Man you people need to get a life. I have heard that you (especially the nice folks there on HPFGU) are watching my every move and are debating every detail of my life. Parts of my life I don't even remember, *you* remember and in great detail. Even I don't ruminate on it that much and it's *my* life!!!" If JKR kills me off, it will be all your fault!! (Because she wants you all to move on. As my dear mentor DD said "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. You folks *have* been listening to DD haven't you?? He is very wise and I value his advice, even if I don't always tell you so.") Harry to Snape: Ah, you know Sir, I want to apologize for being so rude as to peak in your pensive. That was very wrong of me and I apologize. I see that your childhood wasn't much better than my own and I can understand why you.. ah, forgive me for saying this, why you seems so nasty at times. I forgive you for the way that you have treated me over the course of my stay here at Hogwarts. Also you can rest assured that I have never and will never tell anyone what I saw." Harry to Ginny: Ah, would you like to.. ah.. go to the, ah.. Christmas ball with me? (blush). Dudley to Harry: Hey Dude, I ah, like apologize for being such a twit all of those years. You like saved my life, man. That is kinda cool. Tonks_op From fkilc at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 21:27:06 2005 From: fkilc at yahoo.com (fkilc) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:27:06 -0000 Subject: Harry and Advanced Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131048 Lupinlore wrote: > Well, this one is definitely one of the most interesting and talked > about subjects with relation to HBP. Will Harry be in Advanced > Potions? If so, how does he get there? Yes, I agree that having Harry manage an "O" would be the easiest way out for Rowling. On the other hand, all we have to judge Harry's skills in Potions is Harry's POV. In other words, if Harry is constantly comparing is results to Hermione's, then he might be doing better overall that what he thinks. In OP, for example, (no book for direct quote, sorry) Harry is angry because he will be getting a zero for one of his potions, when it isn't any worse than some of his other class mates. The grade, it seems, is more due to Snape's usual behaviour than Harry's abilities. --Francois From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 20 22:13:44 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:13:44 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131049 Hermione: Oh! I get it. House elves don't need saving. It's just that some wizards need a little more respect for them and their work. And I know exactly how to help without offending *anyone*. Ron: Wow, Hermione, that actually is a good idea! And I'm sure it'll work. Neville to Snape: I got an O in potions, no thanks to you. Now get out of my way you greasy-haired git. Snape to Neville: Why you little . DA to Snape: Don't even think about it! Dumbledore: I would listen to the boy if I were you, Severus. And have a wash for goodness sake. Arthur Weasley to Lucius Malfoy: I wasn't pleased when you were given community service in the Misuse of Muggle Artefacts office, but I'm going to try to make the best of a bad situation. Now. I've heard about more exploding toilets - near Diagon Alley this time. A muggle was apparently so surprised they turned into a canary. Now, I want /you/ to tidy it all up. Lucius Malfoy snarls, and puts on a pinny and rubber gloves. Talking of stuff in the books that makes you go yay, my two favourite bits of the last book were: 1) When Peeves saluted Fred and George 2) When McGonagall kicked some Umbridge ass in the careers meeting So I basically want more revenge and more McGonagall! That lady sure is cool. From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 16:04:40 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:04:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Advanced Potions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131050 On 6/19/05, lupinlore wrote: > There are quite a few issues involved here. First, will Harry make an > "O" on his potions OWL? Many people, including me, think that would > amount to rank cheating on JKR's part. People just don't come up with > superior test grades in classes they despise and in which they do not > perform well, even IF the teacher isn't hovering over their shoulder > and even IF they get a lucky break on the essay question. Sure you do, it happens all the time, and I speak from personal experience. In high school, many of my teachers adopted higher standards than the people scoring the tests. Snape is very much like this. The idea is that if you set the bar high early, and keep it high, it will be all that much easier to get over the lower hurdle later. The idea is to make the student more afraid of the teacher than the test so that when the students get into the test environment they a) don't have the fear of the exam, and b) are reassured by the fact that the answers to the test are coming easier than the answers to previous tests. I don't know exactly how many of my fellow students told me afterwards that an AP test was easier than the tests in class, but it was a lot. And note, that the "fear the teacher more than the test" is not necessarily to be taken as outright fear of the teacher a la Professor Snape. -- Gregory Lynn From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 22:23:48 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:23:48 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131051 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What characters do > you really want to see interacting and how? Here's my list: > > Lupinlore I tried posting this earlier, but my post got lost in Yahoo-land. Let me see if I can remember: 1. Gilderoy Lockhart: Just about anything because I bet it's a hoot 2. Luna: "This is why you need to read the Quibbler upside down." 3. Ginny to Harry: "You're off the pedestal but not off the radar screen." 4. Twins to Ron: "We want to make you sales manager for Hogwarts. We'll be paying you, of course." 5: Molly's reaction when she finds out Harry provided the Twins with their start-up capital 6. Wizengamut to Ms. Bones: "You're the new Minister of Magic." 7. Ms. Bones: "Fire Weasley. No, not Arthur! PERCY!" 8. ANYONE to Harry: "This is what is so important about your mother's eyes." 9. Dudley, "Well, look at this," as he snaps his fingers and food flies out of the refrigerator." Petunia, "Dudders, darling, you need to remember to close the door," as she snaps her fingers and the door shuts. Vernon, "AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!" 10. Anyone to Draco, "How's your Dad's new pad?" 11. Alice Longbottom, "I love you, Neville." I'll try to remember the other one or two I had down originally. Julie -- whose 4 year old son can't wait to wear his Quidditch costume to the bookstore! From nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com Mon Jun 20 22:37:39 2005 From: nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com (catimini15) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:37:39 -0000 Subject: Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131052 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > Hello everyone. I haven't posted much at all as of late, but I am in > the midst of my pre-HBP reread and I came across a passage in OOTP > that caught my eye and I wanted to see what the list thought about > it, even if I'm only pointed towards the thousands of posts that have > already beaten it to death. > Anyway, in chapter 22, St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Malladies and > Injuries, page 486 (US hardback), Harry and the Weasleys are going to > visit Arthur at the hospital after he was bitten by Voldie!Snake. One > of the wizards waiting in line at the Welcome Witch's desk is going > to see Broderick Bode, the Unspeakable whom we later learn was > Imperioed by Mr. Malfoy into taking the Prophecy from the shelf and > is eventually throttled by an anonymously sent Devil's Snare > presumably to keep him quiet about anything that he might know. The > visitor is described as an "old and stooped wizard with a hearing > trumpet". > Now, what I want to know is, who the heck is this guy? It is > possible, and entirely likely, that it is just one of Bode's > relations come to cheer him up, but couldn't it also have been a > disguised DE come to see how he's doing and whether or not he'll need > to be finished off? Could it possibly be Wormtail under a supremely > clever disguise? Anyway, I'm probably half-cracked trying to look for > stuff I haven't spotted yet in my tenth reread, but I thought I'd > bring it up and see what all you faithful listees have to say. > > Meri - so insanely psyched that there are only 25 days left!!!! Hi- I hate quoting my own posts but here it is, 102571 (June 23, 2004): (snip) "A couple of months ago (I'm sorry, I couldn't find the posts) there was speculations that the visitor was Wormtail in disguise with his silver hand transfigured into a hearing device. I would like to stress the word ?disguise? because I came across something interesting while I was rereading GoF. In the first chapter (The Riddle House), Wormtail tries to convince Voldy to use another wizard instead of Harry (for the dark magic rebirth potion 10 months later) and he says: "You know that I can disguise myself most effectively." Is Wormtail referring to his hability as an animagus or is he mentionning other ways of successfully transforming his appearance? I think the visitor was a DE nevertheless..." A DE indeed: Wormtail in disguise is one of my favorite theory (I've said that many times). Nadine From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 22:46:21 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:46:21 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131053 Luna: Look Hermione, over there. Hermione: Oh my ---; a crumple horned snorkack. DD: Severus, the past is the past. What do you want? To be right, or to be happy? Get with the program - go to drphil.com Ginny: Just back off Ron, or Harry and I will never get together. Arthur to Ron: Yes I know you think you love Hermione, but look at me and your mother, do you want to be henpecked all your life? Harry: So what did happen that day at Godrics Hollow? Hagrid: ..... (text deleted) Er, I shouldn't have told you that. Just some of many I could think of. Saraquel From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 20 22:50:35 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:50:35 -0000 Subject: HP as Winnie the Pooh (Re: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131054 Alla wrote: > I guess I would be able to live with it, but I really prefer to see > at least some kind of retribution done first. > > Just my opinion, > Potioncat: Sorry, Alla, I can't help it. This is the image that burst in full Disney Winnie the Pooh glory when I read that: It's from "Tigger Gets Lost" Rabbit!Harry revealing his plan to Pooh!Hermione and Piglet!Ron (OK, switch them if you want) "We'll take him into the Forbidden Forest and lose him...Oh we won't really lose him. But soon he'll be a less frightening Snape, an "Oh Potter, am I glad to see you" Snape. We'll take the billow right out of him! Then it'll much better at Hogwarts. With apologies to Milne, Disney, and Rowling. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 17:26:18 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:26:18 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131055 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What characters do > you really want to see interacting and how? > Lupinlore Conversations or statements I'd like to read: 1. Gilderoy Lockhart --> anything probably would be amusing 2. Luna to anyone --> "This is why the Quibbler is read upside down." 3. Ginny to Harry --> "You're off the pedestal but not off the radar screen." 4. Dursley conversation: Dudley, "Hey, watch this." Snaps his fingers and food flies out of the rerigerator. Petunia, "Dudders, dear, you forgot to close the door" snpas her fingers and the door closes. Vernon, "AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!" 5. DD, Lupin, MM, or anyone who knows, "Harry, your mother's eyes could _______________" 6. Hagrid to Harry, "Well, dun ya know where ter wat ya owe yer gold? Oh, I shouldn't have said that...I really shouldn't have said that." 7. Twins to Ron, "We'd like to make you our point-of-sales at Hogwarts. We'll pay you handsomely for it." 8. Molly's expression when she finds out Harry is the Twins' seed money. 9. Wizengamut, "The next Minister of Magic is Ms. Bones." Ms. Bones, "Percy, shut up" or "Fire Weasley. No, heaven's no, not Arthur...PERCY!" 10. Alice Longbottom, "I love you, Neville." Julie -- (My 4 year-old son can't wait to wear his Harry Potter Quidditch costume to the book store July 15!) From golden_faile at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 23:36:17 2005 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:36:17 -0000 Subject: "And for the good Wizard... State Farm is there...." Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131056 I just had a thought... We know that part of Harry's money is inherited from James and someeone touched briefly on a a "trust fund " theory in an earlier post, but have we ever considered whether there is a such thing as Life Insurance in the wizarding world? Just my thoughts on that one knawing question about where all of that gold in Harry's vault came from. Makes sense... His parents were afraid that they were going to die, Voldy was after them, why not take out a policy? They would want to make sure that Harry was taken care of if anything happened to them. I don't think that this has been discussed before, but if it has I'm sure someone will tell me! Laila From bccissell at hotmail.com Mon Jun 20 22:21:30 2005 From: bccissell at hotmail.com (bciss1) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:21:30 -0000 Subject: Why were they guarding the prophecy in the first place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131057 Gregory Lynn wrote: (snip) >> However, I think there was some value in keeping it intact. As long > as it was intact, Voldemort would come after it. If it were > destroyed, he would go after someone else who had the information. By > keeping it intact, the Order A) knows what Voldie is going after, and > B) can set a trap for him. > > Think about it, what's the thing the Order wants the most? For the > powers that be to recognize that Voldie is back. What better way than > to have Voldie show up in the MOM? > Wow! That is a good theory. The only problem seems to be in the execution. They didn't (assuming this was their plan) have a very good way to alert the Order that Voldie is at the MOM. Arthur was attacked and they only found out because of Harry; Bode was hit with an imperius curse, and (hmmm, I can't seem to remember who found him or how); and then the DE's were in the ministry waiting for Harry to show up, but the order didn't know he was there until Snape guessed that must be where he went. Of course I think all of that can be explained away, but I hope the Order is better prepared for their next plan. Bciss1 From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 23:49:29 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:49:29 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Why neither Harry nor Ron is right for Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131058 OK, you shippers out there, I've never posted a SHIP before and generally don't take too much interest in the romances, so this may have been said many times before, if so apologies and vote with your X button. Personally I think that no-one would be made happy by any members of the triangle getting together. (Including the gay option - but JKR doesn't seem to be rolling that one - now that would be a surprise!) Hermione and Harry: Harry needs a little lightness in his life. He needs someone to say, 'Yeh, true, but so what...' that's why he gets on so well with Ron. As seen in the GoF section when Ron withdraws his friendship, Harry finds being with Hermione far too serious. Harry takes Hermione's views seriously, even if he doesn't directly say so. Take the firebolt storyline in PoA. He acknowledges that she has a point and therefore finds his desires struggling to break free. Harry needs to learn mastery over his impulses for himself, rather than have them cut down to size by Hermione. In a relationship he would end up feeling trapped and resentful. Also, my reading of their relationship in the books has always been friendship. Hermione is too easy with Harry physically (she has hugged him quite a few times) to have an adolescent attraction to him. Ron and Hermione: IMO, if JKR is touting any SHIP between the major characters, it's this one. Although the Aaah factor would be sort of satisfying, I really don't think it would be a good match. There is obvious chemistry between them, but not enough respect. I could see them continuing to bicker and ending up in a Molly/Arthur scenario. Staying together, but neither of them really bringing out the best in each other. Ron needs someone lighter, who will make him feel good about himself and increase his confidence. Hermione needs: Someone she can respect, so that the bossiness in her character doesn't have full reign. She needs to feel safe, because she's very vulnerable. She needs someone who is her intellectual equal, so that that part of her character is satisfied and she has some space to develop other things. Probably someone older. Who comes to mind - er Krum. Well, let's see if we hear more about him. Although I don't think the chemistry is there on Hermione's side, it obviously is on Krum's. But somehow, I don't think JKR is going to take that one much further. After all that - when do we ever chose what we need, rather than what we want, when we're a teenager. I certainly didn't! Saraquel From golden_faile at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 00:24:18 2005 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:24:18 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131059 > > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What > characters do > > you really want to see interacting and how? > > Conversations or statements I'd like to read: > > 1. Hermione to Neville: "Wow! Neville that was really great! Can you show me how to do that?" > > 2. Harry to Neville: "Neville, I'm really sorry about your parents... if you need to talk..." > > 3. Anyone to Neville : "Want to hang out?" > > >4. Alice Longbottom: "I love you, Neville." > >5.Neville to gran: "Quit it already!" 6. Harry to Snape: " I am not my father you STUPID GIT!" 7. Harry to DD: " Sir, I want to apologize for my behavior..." 8. Aunt Petunia to Harry: "I want to tell you about your family..." From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 01:10:17 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:10:17 -0000 Subject: "And for the good Wizard... State Farm is there...." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131060 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "golden_faile" wrote: > I just had a thought... We know that part of Harry's money is > inherited from James and someeone touched briefly on a a "trust fund " > theory in an earlier post, but have we ever considered whether there > is a such thing as Life Insurance in the wizarding world? Just my > thoughts on that one knawing question about where all of that gold in > Harry's vault came from. Makes sense... His parents were afraid that > they were going to die, Voldy was after them, why not take out a > policy? They would want to make sure that Harry was taken care of if > anything happened to them. I don't think that this has been discussed > before, but if it has I'm sure someone will tell me! > > Laila KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Hum...I can see the insurance person now, trying to set up the Potter's Policy coverage: "You say you've faced the Dark Lord three times, and now you are in hiding....no no...we are sorry, we simply can't cover you, You are too much of a risk... KarentheUnicorn From gelite67 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 01:58:18 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:58:18 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: <20050620174012.89447.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131061 ---> lupinlore wrote: > > > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? > > What characters do > > you really want to see interacting and how? > > Angie here: Anyone to Hermione: "You MUST chill, Jill!" Harry to Dumbledore: "Yo, dude. Think maybe you could tell me something important BEFORE page 500? You're not getting any younger, you know. Plus, you might not make it to the end of the book!" Neville to his grandmother: "Ever heard of positive reinforcement?" Harry to Snape: "That's right, Snivellus. I said it -- [insert snide comment of your preference here]." Harry to the Dursleys: "Thanks for nothing. David Copperfield, what a great life HE had." Dumbledore to the Dursleys: "Because Lord Voldemort destroyed your house, I've made arrangements for you to stay at the Leaky Cauldron -- or perhaps Hogsmeade? No thanks are necessary." Harry to his broken mirror: "Reparo"; Sirius to Harry: "'Bout time, boy!" A horrified Vernon, pulling out tufts of his mustache while speaking to the pack of reporters camped on his doorstep: "H-Harry who? N- nephew? I-I don't know any Harry Potter! Whaddya mean wizard? Hogwarts?" [bellowing] "Petunia!!" From gelite67 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 02:14:43 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:14:43 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131062 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "golden_faile" wrote: > > > > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What > > characters do > > > you really want to see interacting and how? > > > > > Conversations or statements I'd like to read: > > > > 1. Hermione to Neville: "Wow! Neville that was really great! Can > you show me how to do that?" > > > > 2. Harry to Neville: "Neville, I'm really sorry about your > parents... if you need to talk..." > > > > 3. Anyone to Neville : "Want to hang out?" > > > > > >4. Alice Longbottom: "I love you, Neville." > > > >5.Neville to gran: "Quit it already!" > > 6. Harry to Snape: " I am not my father you STUPID GIT!" > > 7. Harry to DD: " Sir, I want to apologize for my behavior..." > > 8. Aunt Petunia to Harry: "I want to tell you about your family..." Angie here: I really like your post because I really want Neville to come into his own. How about these? Neville, who finally mastered transfiguration to Draco: "Oh, sorry -- was my wand pointed at you? Don't worry. In another six years I'll know how to reverse it." Hannah Abbott, speaking shyly and fluttering her eyelashes at Neville: "Since you're the best in the class, could you help me with my Herbology homework?" Mrs. Longbottom (Gran) to Neville: "Your parents would have been so proud of you. I know I am." DD to Snape (the least likely of all): "Now, Severus. It's high time you apologized to Neville for the cruel manner in which you've treated him. And don't let me catching you doing it anymore, Snivellus, or they'll be he** to pay." From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jun 21 02:26:31 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:26:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] "And for the good Wizard... State Farm is there...." Message-ID: <154.53639305.2fe8d4d7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131063 In a message dated 6/20/2005 6:37:23 PM Central Standard Time, golden_faile at yahoo.com writes: Just my thoughts on that one knawing question about where all of that gold in Harry's vault came from. Makes sense... His parents were afraid that they were going to die, Voldy was after them, why not take out a policy? I rather doubt it. JKR said that James inherited all of his money and that's why he didn't Need a "high paying" job. Sounds to me like James came from a monied background Melissa. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwright at amdocs.com Tue Jun 21 02:40:04 2005 From: jwright at amdocs.com (pitaprh) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:40:04 -0000 Subject: Pensieve Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131064 What are everyone's thoughts? When you put memories into a pensive are they then removed from your mind? For example in OOTP when Snape is telling Harry why he has to teach him Occlumency he then appears to remove the previous conversation (I am assuming so LV doesn't find it) from his mind and puts it in the pensive. Does that mean he will not remember the conversation now? Does Dumbledor on a daily basis remember the court case of Barty Crouch JR, does he have to return to the pensive to recall it? Pitaprh From vloe at dallasnews.com Tue Jun 21 02:54:33 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (firebird) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:54:33 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131065 Ron to Hermione: Can I borrow your copy of "Hogwarts, a History"? Hermione to Ron: I'm sick of studying; let's go tickle the giant squid. Ginny to Harry: How many boyfriends am I going to have to run through before you wake up, seeker boy? Neville to Gran: I just meant to call you "old bat" ? not turn you into one! DD to Harry: Your dad was an OK wizard, but your mother rocked! DD to Lily (in the pensieve): We can hope LV never shows up, but if he does, the best thing you can do is force him to kill you. Lily to DD (in the pensieve): That's the best plan you can come up with? It is? Well, alright, then. Lily to Harry (in the pensieve): I know it's going to be a real pain in the ***, being "The Boy Who Lived," but in the end, all the pain will be worth it. I promise. Harry to all: Screw the prophecy. I'll find my own way. Victoria From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 21 03:07:00 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 03:07:00 -0000 Subject: Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131066 "pitaprh" wrote: > What are everyone's thoughts? When you put memories into a pensive are > they then removed from your mind? Potioncat: It appears to me that the usual method would be to place the memories into the Pensieve for a brief period of time and then to return them to your head. DD was taking thoughts out to see if they formed a pattern. Snape appeared to be taking thoughts out to keep them from Potter. In each case, Snape waits till the last minute to remove them, then replaces them as soon as possible. Many readers seem to think it was his way of taunting Potter, but I think it was standard procedure. From golden_faile at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 03:12:27 2005 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 03:12:27 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131067 I know it was a bit sappy,but I feel so bad for poor Neville... yours were quite good. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > > Angie here: > > I really like your post because I really want Neville to come into > his own. > > How about these? > > Neville, who finally mastered transfiguration to Draco: "Oh, sorry -- > was my wand pointed at you? Don't worry. In another six years I'll > know how to reverse it." > > Hannah Abbott, speaking shyly and fluttering her eyelashes at > Neville: "Since you're the best in the class, could you help me with > my Herbology homework?" > > Mrs. Longbottom (Gran) to Neville: "Your parents would have been so > proud of you. I know I am." > > DD to Snape (the least likely of all): "Now, Severus. It's high > time you apologized to Neville for the cruel manner in which you've > treated him. And don't let me catching you doing it anymore, > Snivellus, or they'll be he** to pay." From golden_faile at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 03:16:06 2005 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 03:16:06 -0000 Subject: "And for the good Wizard... State Farm is there...." In-Reply-To: <154.53639305.2fe8d4d7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131068 Well,it was worth a try... I saw the commercial earlier while I was reading the posts and thought I would chime in my two cents... I thought about hagrid saying "Did you think your folks would leave you with nothing?" or something to that effect...kind of made it sound like they prepared for the worst. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/20/2005 6:37:23 PM Central Standard Time, > golden_faile at y... writes: > Just my > thoughts on that one knawing question about where all of that gold in > Harry's vault came from. Makes sense... His parents were afraid that > they were going to die, Voldy was after them, why not take out a > policy? > I rather doubt it. JKR said that James inherited all of his money and that's > why he didn't Need a "high paying" job. Sounds to me like James came from a > monied background > > Melissa. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From golden_faile at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 03:20:42 2005 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 03:20:42 -0000 Subject: "And for the good Wizard... State Farm is there...." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131069 Yeah, I was thinking about that earlier too... I was thinking that if they did manage to get coverage their premiums would be through the roof!!! Oh well, It was a passing fancy but I will fall out laughing if that DOES end up being the reason he has so much money. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "unicorn_72" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "golden_faile" > wrote: > > I just had a thought... We know that part of Harry's money is > > inherited from James and someeone touched briefly on a a "trust > fund " > > theory in an earlier post, but have we ever considered whether there > > is a such thing as Life Insurance in the wizarding world? Just my > > thoughts on that one knawing question about where all of that gold > in > > Harry's vault came from. Makes sense... His parents were afraid that > > they were going to die, Voldy was after them, why not take out a > > policy? They would want to make sure that Harry was taken care of if > > anything happened to them. I don't think that this has been > discussed > > before, but if it has I'm sure someone will tell me! > > > > Laila > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > > Hum...I can see the insurance person now, trying to set up the > Potter's Policy coverage: > "You say you've faced the Dark Lord three times, and now you are in > hiding....no no...we are sorry, we simply can't cover you, You are too > much of a risk... > > > KarentheUnicorn From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 21 04:16:49 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Chris Whittaker) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:16:49 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131070 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What characters do > you really want to see interacting and how? Here's my list: >>snip<< now mine: 1. Hermione to Ron: "Kiss me, Quick!" 2. Harry to Ron and Hermione: "I need some help. We have to figure out how I can destroy Lord Voldemort without the AK. I can't use the unforgivables, I won't stoop to his level." 3. New MoM: "Mr. Potter due to the extreme level of danger to you, the limits on underage wizardry on lifted for you. However, please try not to use magic in front of muggles if you can help it." 4. DD to Harry: "I will be teaching you advanced DADA this year. This will be in addition to your regular class. I would also like you to continue with the DA meetings you started last year. I am very proud of the progress you have made with your fellow students. Well done." Chris (flowerchild4) From jmoses22002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 11:14:39 2005 From: jmoses22002 at yahoo.com (jmoses22002) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:14:39 -0000 Subject: Spoiler - Screen Saver Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131071 S * p * o * i * l * e * r * * * A * l * e * r * t * * Has anyone had the idea yet that the pensieve on the backside cover of the HBP could be a really old one. I don't recall reading how long a pensieve can how your memories. I would assume that it would how them for a while, as long as the container was not damaged or turn over. If the pensieve were put somewhere out of the way, lets say in the middle of an underground lake, it may never lose the memories of its owner. Jmoses From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Tue Jun 21 12:53:49 2005 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 21 Jun 2005 12:53:49 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1119358429.239.63064.w118@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131072 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: How long should the HPFGU Spoiler Policy remain in effect after HBP is released on 16 July? Vote for all the options that reflect your opinion. o No spoiler policy is necessary after HBP is released. RAYOR (Read At Your Own Risk) is fine. o It's fine if the spoiler policy remains in effect for one week after HBP release. o It's fine if the spoiler policy remains in effect for two weeks after HBP release. o RAYOR is not acceptable. o A one-week post-HBP spoiler policy is unacceptable. o A two-week post-HBP spoiler policy is unacceptable. To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1871247 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From elfundeb at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 12:58:25 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (Debbie) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:58:25 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Poll on Post-HBP Spoiler Policy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131073 Wanted! Listmember views on how long the HBP spoiler policy should remain in place AFTER July 16, when HBP will actually be available. When OOP was released, we observed spoiler rules for two weeks after the list reopened. In fact, *every* post during the two-week spoiler period was about OOP, so every post contained the spoiler warning. The spoiler policy primarily protects prospective new members, as existing members who visit this list (or any HP list or website) after July 16 will expect to find spoilers. It also protects existing members who live in places where HBP will not be available on July 16. We are considering three options: 1. Spoiler policy remains in effect for two weeks after list reopens. 2. Spoiler policy remains in effect for one week after list reopens. 3. Spoiler policy will be lifted immediately when the list reopens; a RAYOR (Read At Your Own Risk) policy will apply and it will be prominently displayed on the home page. We want to hear your opinion, so we've set up a poll here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1871247 And, we encourage you to post more detailed comments on the Feedback list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Feedback or send them directly to the Elves at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoo.com Please do not reply directly to this message, as the comments will go to the main list, where they will be considered off-topic. Thanks! Debbie aka Speedy Elf for the List Elves From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Tue Jun 21 13:07:54 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:07:54 -0000 Subject: "a much pleasanter reason" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131074 In "the Snitch" site, they give different things coming up in HBP http://www.thesnitch.co.uk/site/index.php?class=The% 20Snitch&page=Book%20Six%20::%20Facts One says: Harry Potter's stay at the Dursley's will be the shortest yet; this will not result from another court case, since he will be leaving for "a much pleasanter reason." I suggest it may be APPARATING lessons. Just as Fred and George passed their apparating tests outside of Hogwarts during the summer holidays, summer may be a good time for lessons to be held. I assume apparating rules are similar to muggle driving rules - a youth can learn to drive even before he/she is old enough to get their license. Likewise, Harry can't sit for his apparating test till Book 7 (I think) but lessons may still be available to him now. Besides, going to apparating classes with Ron and Hermoine would be as fun as going to the Quidditch World Cup in GOF. aussie_lol From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 21 13:41:17 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:41:17 -0000 Subject: appertating was "a much pleasanter reason" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131075 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > One says: > Harry Potter's stay at the Dursley's will be the shortest yet; since he will be leaving for "a much pleasanter reason." > > I suggest it may be APPARATING lessons. > I assume apparating rules are similar to muggle driving rules - a > youth can learn to drive even before he/she is old enough to get > their license. Not in the UK they can't, or at least not on public roads. If your family had enough private land then your parents could teach you on that, but there is no formal training until you are 17. Harry will be only just 16 at the start of the 6th year, whereas Hermione will be 17 a few days after term starts and Ron in March. As we all know by now(!), you cannot apperate inside Hogwarts so they may not chose to learn until the following summer when they could all learn together. If they do learn before the end of the book though, I wonder if it could be significant. In that they could all be in an encounter with DEs and/or Voldemort (outside Hogwarts ground) and Hermione and/or Ron apperate to safety while Harry cannot. While we're here - what does everyone think about the possibility that someone who can apperate could carry someone who cannot, and apperate that person with themself? Karen From Snarryfan at aol.com Tue Jun 21 13:48:50 2005 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:48:50 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131076 > > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What > characters do > > you really want to see interacting and how? Snape to a psy: "It's all my father's fault, he killed my puppy." Ron to Hermione: "Could you please not diminish my success, please? Thanks" Hermione in class: "*whistle* What? The answer? No, I don't know it, work yourself, for once." The squid to the students: "*whatever noise a squid makes*" Harry to Remus: "So, my mother, can you talk to me about her? No I didn't ask you about my father, I asked my mother." DD to Harry: "here, an answer clear and simple". Snape to Minerva: "I kinda like you, a little." Minerva to Snape: "If you only think to get back to the Dark Art, I'll bring you back by the ear, and give you detentions. I don't care you're not a child anymore. I won't let you destroy yourself." Flitwick to Sprout: "So, if we follows this plan, we'll take the lead for the century to comes. The reign of Slytherin and Gryffindor is ending." Snape to Crabbe and Goyle: "Gahhhh!!! You're so stupid, if your fathers haven't the possibility to...hehehehe." Harry to Voldy: "Less clich?, and less talk, please." Hagrid to the trio: "Snape is not evil! How many time I must tell you that! I remember when he was little, and he was so cute with this little hurt bird he try to heal and...oh hello Professor Snape. Why the glare...I shouldn't have say that." It's funnier it should be ;D Christelle. From martyb1130 at aol.com Tue Jun 21 12:29:22 2005 From: martyb1130 at aol.com (martyb1130 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:29:22 EDT Subject: Hedwig Message-ID: <1fe.40dddde.2fe96222@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131077 I was just reading the SS and came across something very interesting. When Harry had just gotten Hedwig and all of his books he sat down and decided to pick a name for his owl. He looked in Hogwarts A History and pulled out the name Hedwig. I have a funny feeling that Hedwig the person is going to come into play. What do you guys think? Brodeur [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 21 11:38:46 2005 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:38:46 -0000 Subject: Not letting go of the past In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131078 hettiebe wrote: > > When I was at school I suffered from an amount of bullying. I wasn't > > exceptional and, depending on how you quantify it, I think at some > > time everybody goes through this. > > > Snip > > > > So much for letting go of the past. What I really don't understand is > > the immaturity of Snape, Sirius, and, to a certain extent, Lupin in > > continuing their feuds from their schooldays. From my own personal > > experience I would think that they would want to move on and, after > > all, they are supposed to be on the same side now and the issues are > > life and death. > Gerry wrote: > Snip > I think > you missed the point. From what I read in your post you do not have > much experience with bullying, lucky for you. Real bullying is not a > bit of names calling, it is not someting that everybody goes through. > > I haven't included your whole post but I guess I was just viewing this as 'children can be cruel' whereas, as you pointed out, real bullying is abusive and formative. Sorry, I stand corrected. Hettiebe From carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 21 13:24:59 2005 From: carol_sutcliffe at yahoo.co.uk (hettiebe) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:24:59 -0000 Subject: Spoiler - Screen Saver In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131079 S * p * o * i * l * e * r * * * A * l * e * r * t * * --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmoses22002" wrote: > Has anyone had the idea yet that the pensieve on the backside cover > of the HBP could be a really old one. I don't recall reading how long > a pensieve can how your memories. I would assume that it would how > them for a while, as long as the container was not damaged or turn > over. If the pensieve were put somewhere out of the way, lets say in > the middle of an underground lake, it may never lose the memories of > its owner. I love this idea. Godric Gryfindor's Pensieve perhaps. Could give all sorts of clues about the showdown between the founders and maybe some prophecy about the Heir of Slytherin. Equally good would be Voldemort's Pensieve, I'm sure he's got a few memories that he doesn't want anybody else accessing through a bit of legemancy. Hettiebe From slytherin501 at yahoo.es Tue Jun 21 10:24:49 2005 From: slytherin501 at yahoo.es (Sembei Grindelwald) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:24:49 -0000 Subject: IMO, Sirius and Albus... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131080 English is not my native language, so I will be very brief: I think Sirius Black and Albus Dumbledore are the same person. This idea, has been discussed before? Sembei From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 21 14:01:18 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "a much pleasanter reason" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050621140118.64143.qmail@web80103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131081 Hagrid wrote: In "the Snitch" site, they give different things coming up in HBP http://www.thesnitch.co.uk/site/index.php?class=The% 20Snitch&page=Book%20Six%20::%20Facts One says: Harry Potter's stay at the Dursley's will be the shortest yet; this will not result from another court case, since he will be leaving for "a much pleasanter reason." I suggest it may be APPARATING lessons. >>SNIP<< I like this idea. I have had a feeling brewing ever since about book 4 that Harry will eventually apparate into or out of Hogwarts. He will be the only one to ever do it. The way Hermione reminds them that "you can apparate into Hogwarts" over and over and over makes it sound like the old "methinks she doth protest too much." any comments, flames, ideas? Chris (flowerchild4) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 15:19:55 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "a much pleasanter reason" In-Reply-To: <20050621140118.64143.qmail@web80103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050621151955.17871.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131082 ...edited... > > Hagrid wrote: > One says: > Harry Potter's stay at the Dursley's will be the > shortest yet; this > will not result from another court case, since he > will be leaving > for "a much pleasanter reason." > > I suggest it may be APPARATING lessons. > Ever since JKR posted this on her website I've had an idea, Harry leaves for a Birthday party for himself: the Order Members and the Weasleys seeing how depressed Harry is they decide to have a surprise birthday party for him. Another option (and a bit less likely), is Bill and Fleur's wedding. As for apparating, I agree with an earlier post, I don't think you can take lessons BEFORE you turn 17, and by this summer Harry will be still 15, turning 16, a bit young I think. Juli ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From bccissell at hotmail.com Tue Jun 21 15:15:59 2005 From: bccissell at hotmail.com (bciss1) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:15:59 -0000 Subject: "And for the good Wizard... State Farm is there...." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131083 Goldenfaile wrote: > I just had a thought... We know that part of Harry's money is > inherited from James and someeone touched briefly on a a "trust fund " > theory in an earlier post, but have we ever considered whether there > is a such thing as Life Insurance in the wizarding world? (snip) That is a good thought, and a pretty funny picture of Harry's parents being denied for being too-high risk. Also, we have no reason to believe that something like this doesn't exist in the wizarding world. But I am still hoping that we haven't been given an explanation of the fortune for some specific reason. It could turn out to be a good story. Brenda From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 15:28:05 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] IMO, Sirius and Albus... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050621152805.19669.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131084 --- Sembei Grindelwald wrote: > I think Sirius Black and Albus Dumbledore are the > same person. > Hi! It's an interesting idea, but I don't think so, for me, the ability for time travel bound itself to the fact that the same person can't occupy the same space, what I'm trying to say is that if they were the same person, they could have never been together or even touch each other. Also Jo has said on her website that "none of the characters have returned from the future". You may say that Sirius is DD from the past, but I've never read any hint about it in the books, have you? The other option would be if DD or Sirius had clonned themselves, but I don't think it's possible (not in the real word or in the WW) Here's the quote from www.jkrrowling.com (in rumours) : "Dumbledore is really Ron/Harry from the future Your inventiveness knows no bounds, and I do not mean that sarcastically; these theories open up exhilarating new vistas of possibility but theyre wrong. Could it be that by speculating that Harry/Ron becomes Dumbledore, you are seeking reassurance that neither dies young? Ive also heard a whisper about Ron and Hermiones son time-travelling, so I shall go further and tell you that NONE of the characters in the books has returned from the future. As for the idea of Ron and Hermione having a son (chuckles as the distant roars of a million shippers reach my ears, all cursing me to an eternity of unsatisfied curiosity)." Juli __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Tue Jun 21 15:35:28 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:35:28 -0000 Subject: "a much pleasanter reason" In-Reply-To: <20050621151955.17871.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131085 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > Ever since JKR posted this on her website I've had an > idea, Harry leaves for a Birthday party for himself: > the Order Members and the Weasleys seeing how > depressed Harry is they decide to have a surprise > birthday party for him. Another option (and a bit less > likely), is Bill and Fleur's wedding. Gerry Both would be nice, but I would prefer Hagrid and Mme Maxine's wedding. I want true love for Hagrid! > > As for apparating, I agree with an earlier post, I > don't think you can take lessons BEFORE you turn 17, > and by this summer Harry will be still 15, turning 16, > a bit young I think. Apparating lessons seem totally unlikely to me. If you could start lessons before coming of age he twins would have been eligible for apparating lessons in GOF and they would have complained about getting to the quidditch match by portkey even louder. Gerry From golden_faile at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 15:53:54 2005 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:53:54 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "golden_faile" wrote: > > > > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What > > characters do > > > you really want to see interacting and how? > > > > > Conversations or statements I'd like to read: > > > > 1. Percy to Molly and Arthur: "Mother... Father..." *nods curtly* "I've been meaning to get around to errr..." *looks around uncomfortably* "Been very busy and all... you know how it is..." From golden_faile at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 16:47:07 2005 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:47:07 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "golden_faile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "golden_faile" > wrote: > > > > > > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What > > > characters do > > > > you really want to see interacting and how? > > > > > > > > Conversations or statements I'd like to read: > > > > > > 1. Molly to Winky: " Get your things... you're coming home with us." I think that's it! They just keep coming to me! Laila > > From alishak at spu.edu Tue Jun 21 16:48:07 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:48:07 -0000 Subject: appertating was "a much pleasanter reason" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131088 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > While we're here - what does everyone think about the possibility that > someone who can apperate could carry someone who cannot, and apperate > that person with themself? > Alisha: I think this is unlikely. If it were possible, you'd think that the Weasleys would have used this method to get to the World Cup. They at least could have taken /some/ of those who were too young to apparate. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 21 16:50:49 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:50:49 -0000 Subject: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131089 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > I do NOT mind Harry being a better person and treating Snape better > than he treated the boy all these years, but my basic sense of > fairness as reader will rebel if I will read about forgiveness first, > without Snape getting his due (it could be in the metaphorical sense, > it could be not necessarily from Harry - another Snape as boggart > scene or something like that for example will work perfectly to me. :- > )) first. > > SO, to answer your question, I don't think that it would make Harry > more powerful if he makes Snape suffer, BUT I do think it will be > unfair ( IMO as a reader) if Snape will not suffer at least something > for all he did. Pippin: It would be namby-pamby if Harry forgave Snape because he thought that's what good little boys do. Yuck! But if Harry cannot get past being humiliated until Snape acknowledges that he was wrong to do it, then Harry is going to have a rather tedious Snape-like life, even if Snape complies. There are always going to be people who are less than impressed with the importance of Mr. H. Potter, after all. I would rather have Harry understand that criticism you don't deserve is part of life just as praise you don't deserve is, and not an occasion for revenge. It would be just to let Snape suffer as much emotional and physical damage as Harry has suffered, but it seems that he already has. And if Snape is to suffer for Sirius's death, it would only be fair to have retribution light on Harry and Dumbledore as well... oh and let's not forget Bella or whoever really killed Sirius ...and Voldemort. But that's a lot of punishment to exact for one death, isn't it? Pippin From alishak at spu.edu Tue Jun 21 16:53:47 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:53:47 -0000 Subject: IMO, Sirius and Albus... In-Reply-To: <20050621152805.19669.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > > You may say that Sirius is DD from the past, > but I've never read any hint about it in the books, > have you? Alisha: I think the biggest argument against this theory is that, if Sirius were DD from the past, when he died DD would have disappeared. He wouldn't have lived to old age to become DD. From jjpandy at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 16:55:00 2005 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (JJ Pandy) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:55:00 -0000 Subject: wizards' owls In-Reply-To: <20050620194348.87980.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131091 > > --- Derek Thorburn wrote: > if, in the WW, owls did have a concern > about their owners, especially those living in > similar muggle situations to Harry. > Juli wrote: > Juli: > I think owls are just like any other pet you may > have, they care for you as you care for them, > apparently owls are very intelligent (at least > Hedgwig). Hedwig got mad at Harry in GoF when he sent > an other owl with a message to Sirius, she didn't like > the tropical birds Sirius sent Harry in GoF, He helped > a school owl carry Eroll... > JJ's reply: Perhaps Hedwig is one of the most intelligent of her kind (parallel to Sirius' comment on Crookshanks). As another example to what Juli posted, Hedwig was already waiting for Harry when he got off of the Knight Bus n POA. > JJ > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From jjpandy at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 17:01:53 2005 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (JJ Pandy) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:01:53 -0000 Subject: Will Ginny be a prefect? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131092 It has been a while since I visited this message board and I tried the search feature. If this has been discussed already, please let me know the message number(s). Thanks! Do you think Ginny will be made a prefect in HBP? If she is not, then what does that say about Ginny and her similarities to the twins? Would Molly and Aurthur be extremely disappointed if she were not made a prefect? If she is made a prefect, would Molly be as overjoyed as she was when Ron became one (although other factors played into Molly desparately needing to hear good news at that time). Would the twins tease Ginny like they teased Ron ? The twins seem to have a greater respect for Ginny than Ron. - JJ From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 17:38:45 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:38:45 -0000 Subject: Snape and Harry again. Was: Re: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131094 Alla earlier: ...I don't think that it would make Harry more powerful if he makes Snape suffer, BUT I do think it will be unfair ( IMO as a reader) if Snape will not suffer at leastsomething for all he did. Pippin: It would be namby-pamby if Harry forgave Snape because he thought that's what good little boys do. Yuck! Alla: I am glad to hear that at least on this one we agree. :-) Pippin: But if Harry cannot get past being humiliated until Snape acknowledges that he was wrong to do it, then Harry is going to have a rather tedious Snape-like life, even if Snape complies. Alla: And here my agreement ends. Firstly, I do expect fictional bad guys to get their dues exactly because in RL they don't always do. Granted, one can argue that the book will be more "real" if that won't happen just as it does not always happen in RL, but surely I can hope that it won't be so? :-) Another thing, I consider what Snape does to be a part of life, which you have to fight against. Granted, one have to pick one's battles, but I disagree that RL Snapes should be allowed to do what they want. ( by RL Snapes I don't mean strict teachers, by the way. I mean teachers who persecute their students for the sins of their fathers, that is all) Pippin: It would be just to let Snape suffer as much emotional and physical damage as Harry has suffered, but it seems that he alreadyhas. Alla: I'd like to see that, if he did. :-) Pippin: And if Snape is to suffer for Sirius's death, it would only be fair to have retribution light on Harry and Dumbledore as well... oh and let's not forget Bella or whoever really killed Sirius ...and Voldemort. But that's a lot of punishment to exact for one death, isn't it? Alla: Pippin, I of course like Sirius very much, but I am not quite sure where you got the impression that I want Snape to be punished primarily for Sirius' death. :-) Believe me, even though I think that Snape has some share of blame for that, I consider Sirius' death to be the result of the chain of numerous events, albeit sad one for me, so even if Sirius was alive, I would still think that there is plenty for what Snape deserves to suffer. Just my opinion, Alla. From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 17:45:46 2005 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:45:46 -0000 Subject: appertating was "a much pleasanter reason" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131095 Karen Barker" wrote: > > While we're here - what does everyone think about the possibility > that > > someone who can apperate could carry someone who cannot, and > apperate > > that person with themself? > > > > Then Alisha: > I think this is unlikely. If it were possible, you'd think that the > Weasleys would have used this method to get to the World Cup. They at > least could have taken /some/ of those who were too young to apparate. Now Cory: I agree, and furthermore, if it were possible to carry someone with you while apparating, the advance guard in OotP would have apparated with Harry to 12 Grimmauld Place instead of risking taking broomsticks. --Cory From jrwahlund at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 18:25:43 2005 From: jrwahlund at gmail.com (JoAnna) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:25:43 -0000 Subject: A question for those who have their books handy... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131096 Was Draco Malfoy stripped of his prefect status at the end of OotP (due to his involvement with the Inquisitorial Squad), or is that something I've apparently made up? Thanks, JoAnna From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Tue Jun 21 18:55:27 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:55:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question for those who have their books handy... Message-ID: <129.5f6da7b8.2fe9bc9f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131097 It really didn't say he was stripped of his prefect status. I believe it mentions that the inquisistorial squad was disbanded. but no mention of his prefect status. I sincerely doubt that he was stripped of being a prefect, mainly it's not a good story plot. danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jrwahlund at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 18:59:07 2005 From: jrwahlund at gmail.com (JoAnna) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:59:07 -0000 Subject: A question for those who have their books handy... In-Reply-To: <129.5f6da7b8.2fe9bc9f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131098 Ah, okay. I seem to remember reading something about Draco being stripped of his prefect status since he abused his authority, but perhaps I'm thinking of a fanfic I read and confusing it with canon. JoAnna --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nrsedany2be at a... wrote: > It really didn't say he was stripped of his prefect status. I believe it > mentions that the inquisistorial squad was disbanded. but no mention of his > prefect status. I sincerely doubt that he was stripped of being a prefect, mainly > it's not a good story plot. > danielle > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 20:18:34 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:18:34 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131099 Sorry, I know it's just me, but I really want to see.... [Harry and Ron in the shower] Harry: Hey Ron,... nice butt. Ron: Kiss me, Harry. [Harry and Draco in the shower] Harry: Hey Draco,... nice butt. Draco: Bite me, Potter! Harry: Saaaay Pleeease. OK, I got that out of my system. [Harry upon hearing Gran Longbottom rag on Neville one too many times] Harry: Neville! Neville! Let me tell you a thing or two about Neville... I know others have already done this, but I REALLY! think it's high time someone told that woman off. [Harry to Dumbledore after another one of his profound yet totally lacking any substance speeches] Harry: Cut the crap! Start talking old man, and don't stop until you've said it all. I know others have touched on this theme too. But I think it pretty clear from the forum posts and the fanfic I read that there is a substantial group of people who think Dumbledore is a self-serving manipulative 'son of an unwed mother'. [a finally feed-up Harry to Dumbledore] Harry: Enough of this crap. I want full and unlimited access to everyone and everything I need, and screw school, let's start concentrating on Voldemort. Ok, this has also been said, but come on, how many of us are tired of Dumbledore's 'wise old man behind the scenes' act. Time to stop acting and start doing; time to kick some sweet scaly butt. [Harry to Snape] Harry: Snape! Get over it! Time to grow up! Snape: Mommy... Again, it's been said in this thread already, but I think it's time for both Harry and Snape to get over it. They don't have to like each other, but this childish playground war they are waging with each other needs to stop. [McGonagall to Harry] Prof.McGonagall: Oh just forget about potions, and take herbology instead. Harry: Have a biscuit. I really don't believe Potions is a requirement to be an Auror. It's just a reasonable and logical area of knowledge that would serve an Auror well, but I think Harry could get a working base of that core knowledge in other ways. Really, if he had an 'E' in OWL Potions and an 'O' in NEWT Herbology, wouldn't that be good enough? Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Tue Jun 21 20:20:59 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:20:59 -0000 Subject: Mundungus banned from the Hog's Head Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131100 I don't know if this has already been discussed, but does anyone have any theories why Mundungus was banned from the Hog's Head 20 years ago? (OotP) That's about the time that Voldemort was on the rise and possibly about the time that the prophecy was made in the Hog's Head (correct me if I'm wrong). And if it is Aberforth that's the barman at the Hog's Head (and therefore the one that banned Mundungus), do you think there's a rift between Aberforth and Dumbledore? Or maybe Mundungus was banned because he's the one that snitched on Aberforth for performing inappropriate charms on a goat! Rachael From ramyamicro at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 20:32:25 2005 From: ramyamicro at yahoo.com (Ramya Rajagopalan) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:32:25 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Why neither Harry nor Ron is right for Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131101 Saraquel wrote: (SNIP)> Ron and Hermione: IMO, if JKR is touting any SHIP between the major > characters, it's this one. Although the Aaah factor would be sort > of satisfying, I really don't think it would be a good match. There > is obvious chemistry between them, but not enough respect.(SNIP) > Hermione needs: Someone she can respect, so that the bossiness in > her character doesn't have full reign.(SNIP) Probably someone > older. Who comes to mind - er Krum. (SNIP) That is an excellent post. I too feel that JKR is building up the Ron/Hermione angle, but I don't think they are suited either. In addition to what you say about Hermione needing someone whom she can look up to for a change, I think Ron is quite rude to her many times, not even ready to hear her opinion, while Harry at least tries to, even if he does not agree with her all the time. A Hermione/Krum pair would certainly be interesting. However, we will need to see more of Krum and the relationship developing before we, as readers, can have some satisfaction in that ship. That is why I feel that a Harry/Hermione match would make more sense. I don't think we have any major indications in the text that way, except that Harry seems to mean so much more to Hermione than anyone else. She exerts herself a lot for him and she does respect him, though maybe not look up to him. Their friendship may serve as the foundation for a stable relationship, and Hermione may learn to loosen up a little. After all, JRK has said that she was a little like Hermione when she was a kid! I think the HBP might give us some definite clues as to where at least some of these ships are going... Rams From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 20:35:59 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:35:59 -0000 Subject: Mundungus banned from the Hog's Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rachaelmcadams" wrote: > I don't know if this has already been discussed, but does anyone have > any theories why Mundungus was banned from the Hog's Head 20 years > ago? (OotP) ...edited... > > Rachael bboyminn: Well, we know Mundungus is a petty thief, so it's not much of a stretch to think he might have been trying to sneak a case of wiskey or a keg of Ale out the back door. I don't think it's a great mystery, I think it's just more of Mundungus's typical behavior. Just a thought. True, not a fun or exciting thought, but still reasonable. Steve/bboyminn From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 21 21:03:51 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:03:51 -0000 Subject: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: Alla: > I do think that JKR is influenced by Christian ideas, BUT I also > think that she is influenced by MANY other ideas ( religious or not) > including secular humanism, etc. > > What I would agree with Lupinlore though is not liking much the > ending, if > it will end up to be word by word allegory of the Bible, for example. > The good example will be much brought up LOTR and "Chronicles of > Narnia" > > I love LOTR. I don't think that anybody would argue that Tolkien was > very much influenced by Christian ideas, right? > > But it is very subtly done in his book, IMO. To tell you the truth, > till I started reading books about Tolkien, I had no idea that he was > influenced by Christian ideas. > > At the same time, I could not finish "Narnia", I just could not, no > matter how well it was written. > > I felt that author was beating me over the head with the baseball bat > on where he stands, etc. I do not like that and I hope Harry Potter > will not end up like that. Geoff: I have commented on more than one occasion about JK Rowling, JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis in the context of their Christian beliefs. It is a well documented fact that Lewis /intended/ the Narnia books to be allegorical. His first book "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" is a retelling of the Christian gospel for children, pitched in a magical, fantasy world. The later books diverge from this in that the direct allegorical references are much fewer although, in "The Last Battle", there is some fascinating writing in his description of heaven. Tolkien certainly eschewed allegory - as I believe Jo Rowling has - but his Christian beliefs are well-known. He was one of the people instrumental in bringing CS Lewis to faith although, curiously, he was a Catholic while Lewis became an evangelical Protestant. I believe that writers who create books which are labours of love are bound to incorporate their views, hopes and beliefs into their work and it is there to be recognised even in a covert form by those who search. I do not believe that writers such as these would produce results in their stories which went against the grain of their own world view, be that Christian or otherwise. I think that characters such as Frodo or Harry Potter are the result of these labours of love; they are characters who are well fleshed out with whom we can relate. As any Christian worth his or her salt will tell you, our lives are like that. We have good days and bad days, do great things and crass things, things which we prefer, in hindsight, to forget about and I, for one, like to be able to see myself in a similar situation and maybe reacting in the same way. There are many writers who almost employ assembly line techniques to produce strings of books which are, for example, thrillers or horror stories or crime stories which seem to be amoral and really present no ethical view of the world depicted in their pages. I tend to avoid this sort of book and much prefer a book which will take me into a different world than the often uninspiring real world of today which is why I enjoy the company of the characters from the Wizarding world so much as we journey through life together. A starry-eyed view perhaps but it's one man's view - to pinch a tag from Steve.. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 23:20:35 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:20:35 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131104 >>Geoff: >Just in passing, I must admit that I have a sneaking wish that Draco might just turn back from the dark side of things.....< Betsy Hp: Yay! Here's to a good Draco emerging! >>Geoff: >However, my main comment is that, if we look on "good" as meaning turning away from the Dark Arts and working with the side of light, we do have a good Slytherin already. >Much as I dislike the man, Snape fits this category already.< Betsy Hp: I agree. However, I think there's a generational thing going on too. Because if we look at the three generations we've been introduced to (Dumbledore's, the Marauders', and Harry's) each one has it's own Slytherin issues. Dumbledore, being much further along the path of wisdom , seems to have already found his Slytherin counterpart. We had hints of this in CoS when Dumbledore so easily and quickly came up with some positive qualities of Slytherin house. And in OotP Dumbledore's "good Slytherin" was embodied in Phineas Nigellus. I think Dumbledore has already benefited from his more rational view of Slytherin with his recruitment of Snape. Snape, though, is not Dumbledore's Slytherin. He's the Marauders. Snape has already provided James a means to prove his maturity (the prank) and possibly win the fair maiden and the rank of Head Boy. But I think that for total healing to occur (and for at least *one* of the Marauders to survive the war with Voldemort) Lupin and Snape need to come to some sort of understanding. I've shared my views in previous posts on how strong I think each wizard is in their own right. But if they could somehow unite their efforts, I think Lupin and Snape could add some serious might to the Order's (and Harry's) quest to defeat Voldemort. So that means Harry needs to get his own Slytherin. He's certainly the least far along compared to Lupin and Dumbledore. I don't think Harry sees *any* redeeming factor in Slytherin, and I think that's a weakness on his part. It means he's not making use of the full power of Hogwarts, IMO. I personally think Harry's Slytherin will be Draco because Draco *is* Slytherin for Harry. I also think that the break-through may require more than just a reluctant agreement to work together. As per the Sorting Hat the friendship of Slytherin and Gryffindor was worthy of legend. I suspect that for Harry to truly prevail, to not only defeat Voldemort but actually help bring about a seismic change in the way the WW works (as was foreshadowed by the destruction of the fountain in the MoM), Harry will need to actually befriend his "good Slytherin". >>Hickengruendler: >[Slytherin] has it's dark reputation, and if we believe Dumbledore when he implied in CoS, that the students are sorted not only by their ability, (although I do think this plays a part. The Sorting Hat never offered Harry to go to Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw, for example), but also by their choice, than we must see the Slytherin students as those who do not care about it's bad reputation, or at least not enough to reject the house, like Harry did.< Betsy Hp: Yes, but the so-called "bad reputation" has been fed to Harry from some rather suspect sources. Hagrid tells Harry in PS/SS that all the wizards who've gone bad come from Slytherin. But we learn by the end of PS/SS that this is not true. And then we learn in CoS that Hagrid has his own personal reasons for having such a bias towards Slytherin. I don't blame Hagrid (Tom played him but good) but he's not a reliable source. I think Ron also piles on Slytherin, but his family is as Gryffindor as Sirius' family was Slytherin. He's been brought up to hate the house, so again I doubt the source. (It's like asking a Cubs fan about the Yankees. Or a Cannon's fan about the Tornados if we want to be truly Harry Potter-centric. ) Looking at those who *don't* hold a grudge, Slytherin is not really treated as the house of all that's evil. McGonagall trusts Crabbe and Goyle to carry her bags up to her office when she comes back from sick-leave in OotP. Dumbledore sees positive aspects to the house. Being the house of Voldemort *does* cast a shadow on Slytherin, but to judge them solely on Voledmort would be as fair as judging Gryffindor on Peter Pettigrew, IMO. >>Karen Barker: >Isn't it interesting the way people can read the same thing differently? I love it!< >...what about incorporating a secret chamber, presumably at the time of the castle's initial construction (it would have been very hard to do it secretly later, surely?) for the express purpose of concealing a wacking great bassilic for the purpose of killing muggle-borns. This certainly shows and extremely dark and evil aspect of SS's character to me.< >>Hickengruendler: >Slytherin also plotted to kill Muggleborn-Students and put a Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets. He basically helped killing Moaning Myrtle.< Betsy Hp: As to the source of Slytherin house, Salazar himself, for me the jury is still out. I don't feel like I have enough on hand to judge him with. Yes, a raging psychopath claims him as his big ideas man, but I tend to take whatever Tom Riddle says with a grain of salt. The basilisk is not a sweet fuzzy creature, that's true. But it was pretty securely locked away, and even when Tom did set it loose upon the school it wasn't really all that lean and mean of a killing machine. It managed to kill one muggle-born. And that was by accident. This was supposed to be the mighty blood-cleanser of Hogwarts? Didn't the Sorting Hat say something about Salazar and friends being the most powerful wizards of their era? I raise an eye-brow to the basilisk plan, if that is what it indeed was. >>Betsy Hp: >So there was fighting between *all four* founders. >But if all four founders were fighting that couldn't have been the only bone of contention.< Karen Barker: >Again I read this differently. I read it that SS objected to any but pure bloods being admitted and the other 3 'ganged up on him', if you like, to insist that muggle-borns were also worthy of a place. As long as they were brave and true they were OK by GG. As long as they were very clever they were OK by RR. HH was the most enlightened as she belived anyone who showed magical ability was welcome. There may have been some discord as to what type of muggle-born was acceptable but I believe the catalyst was SS's pure-blood mania.< Betsy Hp: In the end though, three out of the four founders were exclusionary in what students they wanted to teach. Slytherin would have refused Hermione. Ravenclaw would have refused Neville. Gryffindor would have refused Luna. And when Slytherin did finally leave, the other founders were upset that he was gone. They chose to keep his house at Hogwarts and they chose to keep his method of selection within the Sorting Hat. I cannot imagine that if Salazar really was a bad egg that any aspect of his would have been allowed to remain at the school. I expect we will learn more in book six. (Okay, suddenly I'm *really* curious about the Sorting Hat's next song. ) Betsy Hp From chspnll at aanet.com.au Tue Jun 21 23:27:03 2005 From: chspnll at aanet.com.au (saieditor) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:27:03 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131105 Here are mine: Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Albus Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Severus Snape is the Half-Blood Prince. Part of the narrative is the resolution of the working and schoolboy relationships between Snivellus and the boy who always breaks the rules. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily was an Unspeakable who worked at the Department of Mysteries had access to different spells and ancient magics. Lily also tranferred some knowledge and power to Harry through the GREEN EYES. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Mad Eye Moody. He has a soft spot for Harry, and gives some extra tuition. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? There will not be time for a full blown romance; too many issues on Harry's mind. But as JKR told, what's life without a little romance on the side? It will be a momentary flirtation with Ginny Weasley, the hopscotch between boys champion. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Felix Felicius, the Old Lion Guy, is the new minister for Magic. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Salazar Slytherin's Pensive. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. He will focus on Herbology 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 11. All Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Harry will have a dream communication from Sirius and locate the Flying Motorbike. Harry will use this Motorbike to travel ~ and fly back in time with Hermione (and possibly Ron) to Godrics Hollow looking for a certain clue. 2. Harry has some scrying power of his own. We will find that "some of LV's powers transferred to Harry" and some form or another of acquiring knowledge or information very similar to Legilmency or indeed, legilimency itself, is one of these powers. As with Parseltongue, Harry is unaware of having this power at the moment. 4. Moaning Myrtle has a clue on her grave or Tombstone. The Date is critical. 5. Charlie Weasley takes charge the Order's Defence (and defence of Magic-kind as a whole) and enlists Harry's skills as a chaser. Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus. 6. The Dursleys will be menaced by Dementors during term, whilst Harry is at Hogwarts. Petunia will do involuntary magic to protect Dudders and her despicable husband. 7. Harry will use the room of requirement to do something he badly needs; to obtain protection from the inner essence of LV striking out at DD when they meet and talk. 8. The Twins stage a sell out and close down business to camoflage making Magical Defensive Weapons for Harry and Co From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 23:50:15 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:50:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131106 Forgive me, I don't know who said these originally but... > I would like to see Harry realize that he doesn't need to punish his > oppressors to feel empowered against them. And that will be a > revelation too. > > Lupinlore: > That would be...insipid. Sunday school lessons have no place in > non- religious literature. Of course, the extent to which this is a > non-religious story is itself a matter of debate. In any case, this > would turn the Potter story into an After School Special, which > would be seriously revolting. I don't entirely agree. Of course I don't entirely disagree either. If it were done in a sickly sweet manner I'd probably barf. And yet we had a somewhat analogous situation in Goblet of Fire where, when Ron came to apologize after the first task, Harry discovered he didn't need to hear it. Meanwhile, in Phoenix, Harry finally gets a glimpse of the Dursleys as victims when it hits him that Aunt Petunia lost her sister. I can very much see a situation where Harry decides that the Dursleys have suffered enough, or that he has been through enough that getting back at the Dursleys just doesn't have any appeal. It doesn't need to be done in an "It's wrong to get revenge" kind of way but rather could be done in a "It's just not worth it" kind of way. -- Gregory Lynn From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 23:56:36 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:56:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mundungus banned from the Hog's Head In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131107 On 6/21/05, Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rachaelmcadams" > wrote: > > I don't know if this has already been discussed, but does anyone have > > any theories why Mundungus was banned from the Hog's Head 20 years > > ago? (OotP) ...edited... > > > > Rachael > > > bboyminn: > > Well, we know Mundungus is a petty thief, so it's not much of a > stretch to think he might have been trying to sneak a case of wiskey > or a keg of Ale out the back door. I don't think it's a great mystery, > I think it's just more of Mundungus's typical behavior. > > Just a thought. True, not a fun or exciting thought, but still reasonable. > > Steve/bboyminn I was always of the opinion that it was Mundungus who overheard the prophecy and sold the information to Voldemort. I don't know that there's anything in canon to support it but it would fit his personality and his banning from the Hog's Head. -- Gregory Lynn From Schlobin at aol.com Wed Jun 22 00:09:08 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:09:08 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131108 I LOVE Alice Longbottom to Neville "I love you, son". My wishes: Dumbledore to Harry. "Let me tell you why I trust Severus Snape." Harry to Hermione: "Hermione, I can't thank you enough for your brilliance,effectiveness and friendship. Without you, the wizard/witch world would have never have heard my story directly. I know you didn't want me to try to rescue Sirius, but you went with me anyway. That's true friendship. I loved the way you lured Delores Umbrage into the forest. I like the way you think outside the box about house elves. You're an amazing person -- even if you don't understand Quidditch." Dumbledore "For their inventiveness, resistance to oppression, and swamp making, I am making Fred and George Weasley honorary graduates of Hogwarts and awarding each of them Special Services to the School Awards." McGonagall to Harry. "Let's start your training as an Auror." Dumbledore to Harry "I'd like you to take the temporary post as Defense Against the Dark Arts instructor." Cornelius Fudge. "Dumbledore, Harry..you were right...I apologize. I'll be resigning now." Hermione to Ron: "Sorry, Ron. I'm just not interested. In either you or Harry. I like you a lot, we're good friends, but you are just too immature. I won't have a lot of time for romance for a while, but in the meantime, I do like Viktor quite a bit." Harry to Molly Weasley. "Mrs. Weasley, I can't thank you enough for your love and care. I appreciate you thinking of me as another son -- it means the world to me." Harry to Snape. "So, ProFESSor, let's talk. The headmaster trusts you. I don't get it, but we're on the same side. For the moment. For the record - You're nasty and sadistic. Whatever my father did or didn't do to you, I'm not he. I'm Harry, not James. Taking out your bile on an 11 year old is unspeakable. It's your fault that Sirius is dead because you failed to teach me occulemency. Stay as far away from me as possible." Percy to his parents "I've behaved unspeakably. Can you ever forgive me?" Mrs. Dursley to Mr. Dursley. "Honey, I just transfigured Dudley into a teapot." Harry to the Dursleys: "Well, the best part about this year's stay was that it's short. By the way, do you realize you've ruined your son? He's brutish, aggressive, totally spoiled, and unlikable." Susan in northern California From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 00:12:24 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:12:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131109 I want to see Harry and Snape have it out. A real knock down drag out shouting frenzy where they scream all sorts of nastiness at each other during which they realize how similar their pasts really are. I want to hear more from Ginny. I want to hear someone tell Draco to shut the bloody hell up. -- Gregory Lynn From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 00:36:35 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:36:35 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131110 Hi everyone, I've enjoyed the "which conversations do you most want to see" thread, thanks for the idea and everyone's input, which has had me LOL on more than one occasion. Whilst reading the books, I've come across a few "one liners" which have always puzzled me - as in, "why put in that detail?" Some of them may be real clues and others false trails, but I thought it might be interesting to collect together all the as yet unexplained oddities in one cauldron and cook up a potion. Or alternatively, dump all our thoughts into one Pensieve and see if a pattern emerges. The intention is not to wonder about non sequitors such as - how can Snape still be a spy after LV was present in Quirrel's turban in the Forest conversation in COS and he was named as one in court - but to collect together short lines of actual text. Then, we can also see what questions still remain after we've read HBP. Here are some that have stuck in my head: All quotes are from the British editions: PS p45: (Hagrid about Harry's parents) "Suppose the myst'ry is why You- Know-Who never tried to get 'em on his side before..." Why would LV particularly want them on his side and - before what? GOF p500 (Harry's dream during divination) "He was riding on the back of an EAGLE owl.." (my capitals) - the Malfoy's owl is an eagle owl. POA p315 (Sirius' letter to Harry) "I used your name but told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred and eleven." - why tell Harry the number of the vault. OOTP p158 (Moody showing Harry the Order photograph) "Caradoc Dearborn, vanished 6 months after this, we never found his body ..." Confession of a hopeful obsession - is this the HBP - OK confession over, but mark my words, Caradoc will reappear... So, tell me some really interesting ones I've completely failed to notice! Saraquel From joecubs66 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 20:35:16 2005 From: joecubs66 at yahoo.com (joecubs66) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:35:16 -0000 Subject: Will Ginny be a prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131111 JJ Pandy wrote: > Do you think Ginny will be made a prefect in HBP? I do think that Ginny will be made a prefect. The main reason that I believe this is the case is due to the fact that we haven't met any of the other fifth year girls. JKR hasn't found any of them important enough to put in the story thus far so I believe that she will make Ginny the fifth year girls prefect. Of course there is always the possibility that JKR could use this opportunity to introduce us to a new character. We'll know for sure soon. JR From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Tue Jun 21 20:57:31 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:57:31 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Why neither Harry nor Ron is right for Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131112 Saraquel wrote: > Ron and Hermione: IMO, if JKR is touting any SHIP between the major characters, it's this one. Ramya Rajagopalan wrote: > I think Ron is quite rude to her many times, not even ready to hear her opinion, while Harry at least tries to, even if he does not agree with her all the time. I think Ron just needs to mature a bit. They are teenageers after all, and generally females mature before males. At least Harry has some tact about him, I think Ron just needs to learn how to be a bit more sensitive towards Hermione.... I personally prefer Harry or Krum, but only because they seem to show they care. I am sure we will see a few changes (growing pains) in the next book. pot_of_harry From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 21 21:34:38 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Chris Whittaker) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:34:38 -0000 Subject: appertating was "a much pleasanter reason" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: >>snip<< > While we're here - what does everyone think about the possibility that > someone who can apperate could carry someone who cannot, and apperate > that person with themself? > > Karen Chris: If wizards could bring someone with them when they apparated then there would be no need for the Weasleys to take the Ford Anglia to King's Cross in COS, or for the ministry to send a car for Harry and the others in POA. They would have just made a few apparating trips directly onto Platform 9 3/4. In COS,IIRC, when Harry expresses concern about leaving with the car, Ron tells Harry his parents will just apparate home. (sorry, I'm at work and I don't have my book with me.) Chris (flowerchild4) who thanks Smiley Elf for the help From smilingator81 at aol.com Tue Jun 21 22:15:07 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:15:07 -0000 Subject: New Droobles Anagram? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catjaneway" wrote: > Being dissatisfied with the "Gold Bribe below St. Mungo's" anagram > for "Droobles best blowing gum" I went looking for another, and > found this: > > Dig D.L. bones below Urg's tomb > > D.L. being short for Dark Lord, and Urg being a goblin, perhaps Urg > the Unclean mentioned in GoF (p618 US). > > Catjaneway: I love this theory! I always knew there was something about the gum wrapper, but I never thought about it being an anagram. So, I decided to see if I could figure one out. The Dig D.L. part has bothered me because there is only one "D" in the phrase "Droobles Best Blowing Gum", but there are two "d's" used in the "Dig D.L." portion of the anagram you found. I'm not 100% sure on the rules concerning anagrams, but I thought each letter could only be used the number of times it was present. In any event, I came up with "Nobles, dig below Urg's tomb". Perhaps it is a stretch, but since the next book is about a "half-blood prince", maybe this prince really is noble and he needs to get a shovel and dig below Gringotts bank, Hogsmeade, or wherever the bones of Urg the Goblin are buried. Any other thoughts? smilingator4915 From catwoman1683 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 21 22:17:20 2005 From: catwoman1683 at yahoo.co.uk (Charlie Jones) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:17:20 -0000 Subject: Redemption for Percy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131115 Hello all. Hopefully I'm not rehashing something that's been covered a million times already, but I wanted to ask opinions because this is a topic that really interests me. Does anyone think that Percy will redeem himself after his disgusting behavior towards his family in the last book? I would love to see him have a redemption scene. I don't think Percy is bad, rather very pig headed and extremely misguided. Possibly even naieve, too. I really don't think he's a bad guy deep down, and I would like to be proven right. That, and I've always been such a sucker for bad-guy-turned- good type characters! However, I think it would be fitting if Percy's redemption came at a price, prehaps to show the readers the true errors of his ways. I've been reading other forum's, and a lot of people seem to be into the idea of Percy dying to save his family as he finally realises his wrong doings. As someone who enjoys the drama and misery that comes with character deaths, I have to say that I love the idea. To me it seems fitting, and the Weasley clan are so large in numbers I don't think all of them will make it through the series alive. What do you think? I'm interested to know your point of views. :) Take care, Charlie. From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 00:55:53 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:55:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "a much pleasanter reason" In-Reply-To: References: <20050621151955.17871.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131116 > Apparating lessons seem totally unlikely to me. If you could start > lessons before coming of age he twins would have been eligible for > apparating lessons in GOF and they would have complained about getting > to the quidditch match by portkey even louder. Lots of things get left out merely because they aren't relevant to Harry's situation. Just as an example, we never heard about the trips into Hogsmeade until Azkaban, but surely Harry saw the notices. I think it very likely that Hary will get Apparition lessons but I don't think it remotely likely that those lessons are the much pleasanter thing. I don't have any real canon based ideas of what this pleasanter thing could be. Speculation is all we have and things like a Bill/Fleur wedding have as much validity as anything else. Personally, I think it will be something a little more Harry-centric than the marriage of a couple fairly minor characters. I basically see two possibilities. One, he gets the story of his family, or two he gets to leave the Dursleys permanently. Either would be much pleasanter than a new trial. Then again, standing in line to do your taxes would be much pleasanter. My own non canonical gut feeling is that he gets sort of semi adopted by the Weasleys. There was a scene in OOP where Molly worries what will happen to her kids if something happens to her and Arthur and Lupin basically says "Do you really think we'd let them starve?" Well as far as the wizarding world is concerned Harry's guardian was Sirius Black who is now dead. If you're Sirius Black and you want someone to take care of your godson, aren't the Weasleys the obvious choice in spite of the differences? Lupin might make an excellent father but it would be just him and he's busy with the Order. -- Gregory Lynn From Schlobin at aol.com Wed Jun 22 00:54:25 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:54:25 -0000 Subject: Redemption for Percy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Charlie Jones" wrote: > Hello all. Hopefully I'm not rehashing something that's been covered > a million times already, but I wanted to ask opinions because this is > a topic that really interests me. > > Does anyone think that Percy will redeem himself after his disgusting > behavior towards his family in the last book? I would love to see him > have a redemption scene. I don't think Percy is bad, rather very pig > headed and extremely misguided. Possibly even naieve, too. I really > don't think he's a bad guy deep down, and I would like to be proven > right. That, and I've always been such a sucker for bad-guy-turned- > good type characters! However, I think it would be fitting if Percy's > redemption came at a price, prehaps to show the readers the true > errors of his ways. I've been reading other forum's, and a lot of > people seem to be into the idea of Percy dying to save his family as > he finally realises his wrong doings. As someone who enjoys the drama > and misery that comes with character deaths, I have to say that I > love the idea. To me it seems fitting, and the Weasley clan are so > large in numbers I don't think all of them will make it through the > series alive. > > What do you think? I'm interested to know your point of views. :) > > Take care, > Charlie. At some point, JKR states that Snape's redemption would become a pattern for others. Petunia? Obviously SOME people try to leave Voldemort -- Snape, Regulus Black..... I don't want to believe that Percy is truly evil, either, given how much I love all the Weasleys.....but he was truly horrible in OoP.... Susan From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 01:07:03 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:07:03 -0000 Subject: apparating - Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131118 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris Whittaker" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" > wrote: > >>snip<< > > > While we're here - what does everyone think about the possibility > > that someone who can apperate could carry someone who cannot, and > > apperate that person with themself? > > > > Karen > Chris: > If wizards could bring someone with them when they apparated then > there would be no need for the Weasleys to take the Ford Anglia ..., > or for the ministry to send a car.... They would have just made a > few apparating trips directly onto Platform 9 3/4. > > ...edited... > > Chris (flowerchild4) > who thanks Smiley Elf for the help bboyminn: Here is my theory on Apparation. You can Apparate with another person. In fact, although it is not flat out and specifically stated, it is implied that that's what Voldemort did when he and Lestrange escape from the Ministry of Magic Atrium. My impression is that we are lead to believe that Voldemort apparated and took Lestrane with him as he did so. But, on general principle, I don't think it is an easy or safe thing to do, so it would be avoided by most wizards most of the time. To some extent magic is controlled and/or modified by intent. When one person brings a second preson along when he apparates, we have the potential for conflicting intent. Let's say the two people are cooperating. Wiz-1 say, 'let's go to Diagon Alley' Wiz-2: says, 'Ok, but you'll have to take me, I'm feeling to hung-over to apparate'. So Wiz-1 grabs Wiz-2 and apparates. Unfortunately, Wiz-1 is thinking about getting something to eat, so he is focused on and intent on going to an outdoor cafe. Wiz-2 is thinking about getting another mug of meade, so he is focusing on and intent on the Leaky Cauldron. Even though, Wiz-1 controls the apparation, Wiz-2 still has magical power and magical intent. Because of these conflicting intents, the door is open for something to go wrong. The perfect situation for a good splinching. For this to work, the passive wizard must maintain an almost meditative state of 'non-intent' in order to prevent any conflict. Now, a person could be kidnapped this way under ideal circumstances. If Bad-Wiz apparated to Good-Wiz's side, grabbed him and instantly Disapparate. It's possible Good-Wiz would be gone so quickly he would never have time to marshal any intent at all. But again, if Apparation is like Floo or Portkey, and there is some preception of time and space as they travel, then that limit time awareness could give the Good-Wiz time to marshal clear and deliberate intent while 'in-flight'. Now we have much more that just a slight variation of intent, we have magical intents that are drastically opposed to each other. Who know what the out come of that could be. Just some speculation, but JKR has set limits on here world, nothing is infinite and perfect, and this seem like a reasonable limit. Steve/bboyminn From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 01:19:47 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:19:47 -0000 Subject: Will Ginny be a prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131119 JJ: "It has been a while since I visited this message board and I tried the search feature. If this has been discussed already, please let me know the message number(s). Thanks! Do you think Ginny will be made a prefect in HBP? If she is not, then what does that say about Ginny and her similarities to the twins? Would Molly and Arthur be extremely disappointed if she were not made a prefect? If she is made a prefect, would Molly be as overjoyed as she was when Ron became one (although other factors played into Molly desperately needing to hear good news at that time). Would the twins tease Ginny like they teased Ron ? The twins seem to have a greater respect for Ginny than Ron." Ginny well might be a prefect. She'd be a good one, having seen every kind of student shenanigans from, er, close range. Just try fooling her. The twins won't tease her as much, being out of school, and she's likely to tell them both what to do with their jokes. Ginny's parents will be very proud of her if she is a prefect, but they must be very proud of her already for her part in the Ministry battle. She's shown courage and loyalty and she doesn't need to prove anything more. There's steel in that girl's spine, and we'll see a lot more of it before this is over. Jim Ferer From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 01:22:38 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:22:38 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131120 > >>Hickengruendler: > > >[Slytherin] has it's dark reputation, and if we believe Dumbledore > when he implied in CoS, that the students are sorted not only by > their ability, (although I do think this plays a part. The Sorting > Hat never offered Harry to go to Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw, for > example), but also by their choice, than we must see the Slytherin > students as those who do not care about it's bad reputation, or at > least not enough to reject the house, like Harry did.< > > Betsy Hp: > Yes, but the so-called "bad reputation" has been fed to Harry from some rather suspect sources. Hagrid tells Harry in PS/SS that all the wizards who've gone bad come from Slytherin. But we learn by the end of PS/SS that this is not true. I think Ron also piles on Slytherin, but his family is as Gryffindor as Sirius' family was Slytherin. He's been brought up to hate the house, so again I doubt the source. (It's like asking a Cubs fan about the Yankees. Or a Cannon's fan about the Tornados if we want to be truly Harry Potter-centric. ) > Looking at those who *don't* hold a grudge, Slytherin is not really treated as the house of all that's evil. Alla: I am absolutely with Hickengruendler here. I don't think that Slytherins' bad reputation is purely in the eye of the beholder. I also think that whoever will be the good Slytherin or Slytherins to emerge will reject the ideology of their house. We HEAR Slytherins' ideology from Draco's mouth and the gist of it is that "Muggleborns are inferiour to purebloods". That is an objective statement, which could be judged quite independently from Harry's POV. Now, whether ALL Slytherins share such ideology is of course a totally different story and I definitely hope that this is not the case, since I do absolutely want to see good Slytherin or Slytherins. And even though Slytherin is not treated as a house of evil, ( of course not - after all they won the cup for seven years. If Dumbledore REALLY had a grudge against whole Slytherin house, would he have allowed it?) the IDEOLOGY of this House definitely is, IMO. Now, Ron, IMO does not just dislike the Slytherins. He dislikes the ideology of those who proclaims that Muggleborns witches and wizards are second class citizens. I do not agree that this is the same as ask the fan of one team about the opposing one. I think this is quite an objective stance, for which I cheered twelve year old Ron . Now, I think he will absolutely learn that not ALL Slytherins are like Draco, or if you want not all Slytherins think that Muggleborns are inferiour, but I hope that Ron won't change his stance on the ideology of Slytherin house. Oh, and no Betsy I don't judge them as solely as House of Voldemort. I also judge them as house of Lestrange, house of Lucius Malfoy , house of that whole infamous Slytherin gang and yes, house of Draco Malfoy. Now, do we need the counterpart to those guys in Slytherin? Absolutely, just with different ideological stance, IMO. Just my opinion, Alla. From joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 00:30:35 2005 From: joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com (joyfulstoryteller) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:30:35 -0000 Subject: Will Ginny be a prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131121 JJ: > Do you think Ginny will be made a prefect in HBP? If she is > not, then what does that say about Ginny and her similarities to > the twins? > Would Molly and Aurthur be extremely disappointed if she were not > made a prefect? If she is made a prefect, would Molly be as > overjoyed as she was when Ron became one (although other factors > played into Molly desparately needing to hear good news at that > time). Would the twins tease Ginny like they teased Ron ? The > twins seem to have a greater respect for Ginny than Ron. I think that Ginny would make an excellent prefect. She has courage, good interpersonal skills, a lot of maturity for her age, and shows solid leadership skills. She probably also has fairly good marks. With both parents and a number of siblings active in the Order of the Phoenix, she may be a great liason between the order and the student body (I think that the DA will continue in importance). The one thing I could see as a potential drawback, is that she HAS spent time possessed by Tom Riddle. While personally I think it might be more of a benefit (she will have insight that others lack) I don't know how Dumbledore or the other Staff might view this issue. As for Fred & George, they don't give Ginny nearly as much grief as they do Ron, but I'm sure they wouldn't miss an opportunity to twit her a bit. If she wasn't a prefect, they would probably congratulate her for following in their footsteps. She does seem to have a rebellious streak similar to that of the twins. What might be an interesting discussion would be to look at the various Weasley offspring and how being a prefect or not (or Head Boy or not) affected them. As for her parents, I think that in many ways, Ginny being the youngest and the only girl puts her in a special place. Not being made a prefect wouldn't get her the kind of scolding from Molly that not being prefects earned the twins (although if one prefect has to be a girl, maybe Dumbledore didn't want to separate the twins by choosing one over the other as a prefect and so chose neither). Joyfulstoryteller From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 02:06:02 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 02:06:02 -0000 Subject: Death of Snape (wasRe: Snape as father figure, was Sirius as Father Figure) In-Reply-To: <009001c573ba$f8158b80$3659aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131122 >>Amanda: >Father figures =/= love, necessarily. >Snape has been a consistent male authority figure from day one. He represents a critical aspect of "father": the authority, the disciplinarian, the existing Power whose standards and restrictions the child rebels against. He's the father who won't listen; who doesn't seem to care; who sets rules and allows no excuses; whose rules seem to be arbitrary and mean; who is *always there.*< Betsy Hp: I'm a tiny bit behind on commenting on this, but I love this post. Totally agree with everything you've said, including your replies to various dissenting posts. However... >>Amanda: >Which puts Harry at risk, emotionally, and Snape at risk, plotwise. >The loss of Snape would devastate Harry. I suspect it would take something that catastrophic to shock Harry into a different view of Snape. >Heh.< Betsy Hp: No, not "heh" -- "whaa!". This cannot be! But since emotional outcries generally aren't a good way to logically state an opposing view, let me try and put forth a stronger case. I do see the argument that Snape needs to die before Harry realizes what Snape has actually done for him. But I think it could be a little repetitive for Harry to lose yet another father figure to death. Especially if Dumbledore is as marked for doom as so many think he is. I do think it'll take some sort of big bang plot-wise for Harry to see Snape outside of his own "Harry-centric" view (which, to my mind would signal a maturing of Harry), and for Snape to gain a certain respect for Harry (which, to my mind would signal a healing for Snape). But I don't think Snape's death is the only, or even the most interesting, way for those changes to occur. Here's hoping JKR has something else up her sleeve for these two characters. Betsy Hp From golden_faile at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 02:38:12 2005 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 02:38:12 -0000 Subject: "a much pleasanter reason" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131123 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Gregory Lynn wrote: > > I basically see two possibilities. One, he gets the story of his > family, or two he gets to leave the Dursleys permanently. Either > would be much pleasanter than a new trial. Then again, standing in > line to do your taxes would be much pleasanter. > > My own non canonical gut feeling is that he gets sort of semi adopted > by the Weasleys. There was a scene in OOP where Molly worries what > will happen to her kids if something happens to her and Arthur and > Lupin basically says "Do you really think we'd let them starve?" > > Well as far as the wizarding world is concerned Harry's guardian was > Sirius Black who is now dead. If you're Sirius Black and you want > someone to take care of your godson, aren't the Weasleys the obvious > choice in spite of the differences? Lupin might make an excellent > father but it would be just him and he's busy with the Order. > > -- > Gregory Lynn Aren't we forgetting the fact that he has to call #4 Privet Drive home in order to remain safe from Voldemort? Can't it be something as simple as going on a trip with the Weasley family or hanging out with friends? The birthday party was a good idea also... maybe he gets to visit Wealey Wizard Wheezes. Whatever it is I don't think that it will be something complicated--- just different for a change and simple. Laila From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 03:00:18 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 03:00:18 -0000 Subject: Forgiving Snape / was Re: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131124 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > But if Harry cannot get past being humiliated until Snape > acknowledges that he was wrong to do it, then Harry is going to > have a rather tedious Snape-like life, even if Snape complies. > There are always going to be people who are less than > impressed with the importance of Mr. H. Potter, after all. > > I would rather have Harry understand that criticism > you don't deserve is part of life just as praise you > don't deserve is, and not an occasion for revenge. > > It would be just to let Snape suffer as much emotional and physical > damage as Harry has suffered, but it seems that he already > has. Tonks: I agree with Pippin and want to add that if Harry is the better man and forgives Snape that does a number of things: 1. It allows Harry to move on with his life and not be bound to Snape because of his anger towards Snape. Harry can let it go for his own sake. This is good mental health. As the saying goes the best way to get even with an enemy is to live well. 2. It is also possible that if Snape has any ounce of humanity in him, and I think that he does, being forgiven by Harry would be heaping coals of fire on his head. If I behaved like Snape I might at least at some level know what a jerk I had been and when the kid forgives me, it would just eat me alive. So that is one way of having your retribution, if it is retribution that you want. Personally I can understand the rage, not mere anger, but *rage* that would drive someone to want retribution and to see the other suffer. However, I think that this lowers us as humans to the same level as the perpetrator. It is difficult to take the higher road, but it makes one a better person for doing so. I have seen parents whose child was murdered, in a most horrable fashion, able to forgive the murderer. I have seen a group of people whose dearest friend was killed pray for the killer and really mean it. It was a shock to me at the time, over 25 years ago, but I have come to understand how this is the better thing. I think that Harry has it in him to be this type of person who can forgive not only Snape, but LV as well. Tonks_op From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 22 03:15:00 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:15:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Forgiving Snape / was Re: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000f01c576d8$93adedb0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 131125 Tonks: I agree with Pippin and want to add that if Harry is the better man and forgives Snape that does a number of things: 1. It allows Harry to move on with his life and not be bound to Snape because of his anger towards Snape. Harry can let it go for his own sake. This is good mental health. As the saying goes the best way to get even with an enemy is to live well. Sherry now Why does there need to be either retribution or forgiveness? I would consider Harry to be acting in a very mature fashion, if he decided he still hated Snape's guts, realized he had to work with him till Voldemort was defeated, then turned his back on Snape and never dealt with him again. Neither forgiving nor taking vengeance, but living his life with Snape not affecting it either way. I don't think Harry has to forgive to be mature or even to be the better man. I think he can choose to do neither and allow indifference to be his main feeling toward Snape someday. And even if he does forgive, let us remember, that forgiveness does not necessarily mean forgetting. Sherry From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 03:28:17 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 03:28:17 -0000 Subject: Forgiving Snape / was Re: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: <000f01c576d8$93adedb0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131126 > Sherry now > > Why does there need to be either retribution or forgiveness? I would > consider Harry to be acting in a very mature fashion, if he decided he still > hated Snape's guts, realized he had to work with him till Voldemort was > defeated, then turned his back on Snape and never dealt with him again. > Neither forgiving nor taking vengeance, but living his life with Snape not > affecting it either way. Alla: Now THAT I would love to see, Sherry and at least it sounds plausible to me in light of Harry's character and it will not be too sacharine sweet. There is one thing though, which I am not sure of. I can absolutely see Harry deciding that he needs to work with Snape against Voldemort, without ever changing his feelings about the man. The problem is I am not so sure that Snape will agree to do so, even if Harry decides to be more mature person. See, I am not so sure that Snape IS in reality the mature person, who does not have negative feelings towards Harry, but only about James. Another thing is that I am not so sure at all that Snape is aware about the prophecy ( I am going back and forth on this one though), unless he was the one who overheard it. Dumbledore does not seem to share much of other people's business even with those he trusts and prophecy does seem to be very much Harry's business, even if it is concerns Wizarding World as whole. I really DO think that it is that difficult for Snape to have the sone of James Potter around, SO to make a long story short, do you think that Snape will cooperate, if Harry offers at least temporary truce? I do indeed hope that Snape hates Voldie so badly, that he would not mind to work with Harry Potter. Oh, and as I said earlier - I don't mind forgiveness, I don't exclude this possibility at all, just please let Snape see that Harry is not James first. :-) JMO, Alla. From joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 01:57:48 2005 From: joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com (joyfulstoryteller) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:57:48 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Percy's Prospects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131127 Cleverwitch : I agree with joyfulstoryteller about Percy's future, but fear that the deaths he will cause will be those of Fred and George rather than that of Dumbledore. It has been obvious all through the series that Percy is all about law and order, while the twins have a very cavalier attitude toward the rules. FanofMinerva: While Percy is ambitious, etc., the Sorting Hat must have "sorted through" these characteristics and found something more, placing him in Gryffindor. Could it be that we have yet to see these lion- traits in Percy? Upon further reflection, I have to agree with Cleverwitch that Fred & George may be in much greater danger from Percy than Dumbledore is. Not only have they flouted authority (Umbridge in particular), but they have clearly decided to show off about it by making a truly spectacular exit from Hogwarts. They chose to NOT FINISH SCHOOL, a decision that Percy probably can't comprehend, and did it with panache. I do hope that Percy will redeem himself with his Gryffindor qualities (he must have them, as mentioned by FanofMinerva), but I suspect that he may have to go overboard first. Perhaps being the cause of the death (or even the harm) of a family member would lead him to see the error of his ways. Thanks for the discussion, and sorry if there are too many parentheses! Joyfulstoryteller From joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 01:34:34 2005 From: joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com (joyfulstoryteller) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:34:34 -0000 Subject: Susan Bones and her aunt . Was: Speculation on Percy's Prospects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131128 > Geoff: snip > Just after I hit the Send buton, I had an awful feeling I'd got it > wrong and didn't have time to check or reply. > > I was however half-right - as befits a half-blood. The girl /is/ > Susan Bones. My apologies, I DID mean Susan Bones, and I also forgot the "Aunt" relationship. This will teach me to have my books next to the computer when I post, rather than relying on my (obviously faulty) memory. But I suspect that Susan and her Aunt DO have a close relationship. Susan seems very confident about her information, and also that her Aunt will listen to what she has to say. I wonder how many of the Wizengamot who missed DD were loyal Hufflepuffs? Joyfulstoryteller. From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 22 03:43:20 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:43:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Forgiving Snape / was Re: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001901c576dc$895021e0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 131129 Alla, I really DO think that it is that difficult for Snape to have the sone of James Potter around, SO to make a long story short, do you think that Snape will cooperate, if Harry offers at least temporary truce? I do indeed hope that Snape hates Voldie so badly, that he would not mind to work with Harry Potter. Sherry now: Well, of course, I wasn't even thinking about Snape on that one. I do hope that Snape can put aside his childish grudge against Harry and be able to work together toward the defeat of Voldemort. For instance, I think Lupin doesn't like Snape much, but Lupin tries to work with him. He is not his friend. He may not have forgiven him for anything that had happened in their school days, but he is civil to him, in the way you can be civil to someone you dislike but must work with. That's how I think Harry could be without it being too sugary sweet with total forgiveness and all that. If forgiveness could be done without being sappy, then maybe that would work. I just don't think it needs to be either forgiveness or retribution, as I said. But Snape, well, he will have to let go of the hatred of years, in order to see Harry for himself and not for who his father was. I confess, I would very much like to see that. It's ok to say, Harry's got to be the more mature of the two ... and all that some have said, but why can't Snape have to grow up at last as well? Why does the kid have to be the one to be mature, while the adult can be a baby? I'm not just going by Harry's POV in this. Dumbledore has on several occasions indicated that Snape's dislike of James is behind his attitude toward Harry. I just don't understand that, except as a brilliant plot device, of course! Sherry From hackett1171 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 01:00:38 2005 From: hackett1171 at yahoo.com (kim hagen) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's money (was: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ?) Message-ID: <20050622010038.8968.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131130 After reading Saraquel's post I thought a good topic was brought up.... Saraquel wrote: POA p315 (Sirius' letter to Harry) "I used your name but told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred and eleven." - why tell Harry the number of the vault. I think you have touched on a good point about Sirius using Harry's name and his vault number. Since Sirius has no other relatives that he associates with maybe he has left whatever gold he has to Harry, so does Harry get 12 Grimauld Place too? Kim From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 03:53:27 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 03:53:27 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar (Nigellus & Connecting 4 houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131131 > > Betsy Hp wrote : And in OotP > Dumbledore's "good Slytherin" was embodied in Phineas Nigellus. I > think Dumbledore has already benefited from his more rational view > of Slytherin with his recruitment of Snape. > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I loved your reply, I think poor old Phineas Nigellus is a very underplayed character, but his portrait seemed quite distressed to know Sirius had died. I also liked how Phineas gave Harry a talking to when he was ready to run away. Who was it that exactly said P.N. was the worst Headmaster at Hogwarts? I can't remember and I know it was stated at least maybe twice that I can remember, can someone point me to the quotes of who said it, or why he was the worst?? It also seems JKR has a thing for the use of 'US' in a name, and making them the nasty people...Nigellus...Severus....how come I'm seeing a connection here??? I also went out to find the quotes from the sorting hat about Slytherin and here they are: Or perhaps in Slytherin You'll make your real friends, Those cunning folks use any means To achieve their ends. Slytherin's have real friends?... hum, cunning, not always a bad trait, sounds sorta spyish to me, sounds like possibly they make good solders from that comment...meh... Next Song, cliped for Slytherin descriptions: Shrewd Slytherin, from fen.... And power-hungry Slytherin Loved those of great ambition...... ok...fen...swampy, well, Snakes do like swampy areas... power hungry and ambition...sound like we'er going into the political field of work now, swampy powerhungry and ambitious, why, that just screams politician...Was the Minister of Magic a Slytherin???hum.... Next Song Please, for were there such friends anywhere as Slytherin and Gryffindor?.... Said Slytherin, "We'll teach just those whose ancestry is purest."..... Slytherin took only pure-blood wizards of great cunning, just like him..... And at last there came a morning when old Slytherin departed and though the fighting then died out he left us quite downhearted. And never since the founders four were whittled down to three have the Houses been united as they once were meant to be..... Ok, so, nothing much here, except, Slytherin and Griff were friends, This sorta reminds me of Draco offering friendship to Harry...ok, don't take that the wrong way, I personally have no love for little Draconus Major, but, anywayz, it just seemed quite interesting. Also, I keep thinking, OK, so when was the Hogwarts school founded, so says the History, around a 1,000 years ago...maybe 999...we can't be sure. I have a question, we've got two Men...and we've got..two women....ok..over 1,000 years ago, so, who exactly was married?? I don't recall women and men exactly being buddies back in those days, more along the lines of, wife and mother, and generally taht was it....Unless the wizard community, even 1,000 years ago already had women's equality back then?? Well, I guess it does make a difference when, the woman can wip out her wand and zap you to kingdom come, but, still, it just seems odd, two of each, and maybe JKR is not too worried about addding any info about that to the story. I'll vote for Rowena Ravenclaw was Salizar's Slytherin's main sqeeze, and Helga Hufflepuf is Godrick's Griffendor's girl....or..maybe its the other way around...meh...or it could be...um..well...nevermind..LOL. Sheash, I hope I spelled their names right..don't kill me if I didn't. KarentheUnicorn From mich at ntl.sympatico.ca Wed Jun 22 03:26:01 2005 From: mich at ntl.sympatico.ca (Mich Verrier) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:26:01 -0400 Subject: Audio Versions of the Books Message-ID: <017101c576da$21634870$655ae2d1@michaelyxnei3t> No: HPFGUIDX 131132 Hi All. Has any one read the audio versions of the books? Both the US and the UK versions? What I mean is the US and Canadian versions are read by Jim Dale and the others are read by Stephen Fry I think; I am just wondering what people think of both these narrators and their style of reading? I personally have only heard the books read by Jim Dale and not by Stephen Fry. PS Does anyone know whether Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them and Quidditch Through The Ages are available in another format besides print? Like Audio Tape or CD? Because I have these 2 books in Print but I was just wondering whether they are available in any more formats. PS What is a Kneazle? I read it once in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them but I forget what it is. Many Thanks. >From Mich Verrier from Elk Lake Ontario Canada. From cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 04:03:22 2005 From: cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com (cleverestwitchofherage) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 04:03:22 -0000 Subject: Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: (SNIP) >...in chapter 22, St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Malladies and > Injuries, page 486 (US hardback), One > of the wizards waiting in line at the Welcome Witch's desk is going > to see Broderick Bode, the Unspeakable whom we later learn was > Imperioed by Mr. Malfoy into taking the Prophecy from the shelf and > is eventually throttled by an anonymously sent Devil's Snare > presumably to keep him quiet about anything that he might know. The > visitor is described as an "old and stooped wizard with a hearing > trumpet". > Now, what I want to know is, who the heck is this guy? Cleverwitch here: I've said (twice!) before that I think it is Elphias Doge. No reason except the wheezy voice. Peace, Cleverwitch From ramyamicro at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 04:18:12 2005 From: ramyamicro at yahoo.com (Ramya Rajagopalan) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 04:18:12 -0000 Subject: Redemption for Percy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131134 "Charlie Jones" wrote: > Does anyone think that Percy will redeem himself after his disgusting > behavior towards his family in the last book? I would love to see him > have a redemption scene. I don't think Percy is bad, rather very pig > headed and extremely misguided. Possibly even naieve, too. I really > don't think he's a bad guy deep down, and I would like to be proven > right. I think he will too. I believe Percy does have his heart in the right place. His enthusiastic reaction to Gryffindor winning the Quidditch Cup in PoA and his coming to meet Ron with so much concern after the second task in the Triwizard tournament only proves that IMHO. Only he has temporarily allowed himself to be blinded by ambition. Hopefully, seeing that two of his superioirs(Bartemius Crouch and Cornellius Fudge), sticklers for rules and regulations were completely wrong and misguided in their decisions will knock some sense into him, and he will come back apologising in the HBP timeline! Rams From cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 04:24:24 2005 From: cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com (cleverestwitchofherage) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 04:24:24 -0000 Subject: Redemption for Percy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131135 Charlie wrote: > (Snip) Does anyone think that Percy will redeem himself after > his disgusting behavior towards his family in the last book? Cleverwitch here: I think he probably will have a change of heart--after being responsible directly or indirectly for the death of one or more family members. He will be shocked and horrified about what he has done, and will die redeeming himself. (Or not.) Just a flight of fancy... --Cleverwitch From cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 04:40:49 2005 From: cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com (cleverestwitchofherage) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 04:40:49 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Percy's Prospects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131136 > Joyfulstoryteller: > Upon further reflection, I have to agree with Cleverwitch that > Fred & George may be in much greater danger from Percy than > Dumbledore is. > > I do hope that Percy will redeem himself with his Gryffindor > qualities (he must have them, as mentioned by FanofMinerva), but > I suspect that he may have to go overboard first. Perhaps being > the cause of the death (or even the harm) of a family member > would lead him to see the error of his ways. Thanks, Joyfulstoryteller, I really hope I'm wrong about this. Fred and George are two of my favorite characters. And about Percy (though he is NOT one of my favorite characters). I'm afraid, however, that his being from Gryffindor is not a good enough reason to think he will do the right thing--though he may, in the end, redeem himself, as you suggest, after causing great harm to his family. Peace, Cleverwitch From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Wed Jun 22 05:29:41 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:29:41 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Audio Versions of the Books In-Reply-To: <017101c576da$21634870$655ae2d1@michaelyxnei3t> References: <017101c576da$21634870$655ae2d1@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131137 >Hi All. Has any one read the audio versions of the books? Both the >US and the UK versions? What I mean is the US and Canadian versions >are read by Jim Dale and the others are read by Stephen Fry I >think; I am just wondering what people think of both these >narrators and their style of reading? I personally have only heard >the books read by Jim Dale and not by Stephen Fry. PS Does anyone >know whether Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them and Quidditch >Through The Ages are available in another format besides print? Like >Audio Tape or CD? Because I have these 2 books in Print but I was >just wondering whether they are available in any more formats. PS >What is a Kneazle? I read it once in Fantastic Beasts and Where to >Find Them but I forget what it is. Many Thanks. > >From Mich Verrier from Elk Lake Ontario >Canada. I have listened to all 5 audiobooks many, many times read by Stephen Fry, Jim Dale, and (in German) Rufus Beck. I have also listened to the l'ecole des Sorciers in French. I would probably have to say that I prefer the Stephen Fry, but for a rather superficial reason: I like to have the "real" wordings. I don't like the translations to American English. Each reader has their own strengths. I prefer Stephen Fry's Dobby, for instance. But I like Jim Dale's rather dry drawl. All in all, the little differences don't make that much difference to me, but some people may find Dale's drawl more annoying, even though _I_ rather like it. I like a LOT of Rufus Beck's voices, but I absolutely cannot abide his Rita Skeeter (Rita Kimmkorn in German). He gives her a slangy American accent (Ya, know) and I find it completely annoying (I am an American) - my German friends find it highly amusing (I think they enjoy poking fun at Americans). I do NOT like the French version very well. It makes Hagrid sound like a complete moron and everyone else sounds like they are spitting. I recently listened to all 5 books by Stephen Fry and I am now in the middle of listening to the Jim Dale versions again. [I listen in the car when I am driving anywhere.] I prefer Stephen Fry's Kingsley Shacklebolt, but I like Jim Dale's Mad Eye Moody. I would like to try the Spanish versions, but they are too expensive for me. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 05:59:02 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 05:59:02 -0000 Subject: Audio Versions of the Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131138 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Lynn Walsh wrote: > >Hi All. Has any one read the audio versions of the books? Both the > >US and the UK versions? What I mean is the US and Canadian versions > >are read by Jim Dale and the others are read by Stephen Fry I > >think; I am just wondering what people think of both these > >narrators and their style of reading? I personally have only heard > >the books read by Jim Dale and not by Stephen Fry. PS Does anyone > >know whether Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them and Quidditch > >Through The Ages are available in another format besides print? Like > >Audio Tape or CD? Because I have these 2 books in Print but I was > >just wondering whether they are available in any more formats. PS > >What is a Kneazle? I read it once in Fantastic Beasts and Where to > >Find Them but I forget what it is. Many Thanks. > > > >From Mich Verrier from Elk Lake Ontario > >Canada. > > I have listened to all 5 audiobooks many, many times > read by Stephen Fry, Jim Dale, and (in German) Rufus > Beck. I have also listened to the l'ecole des Sorciers > in French. I would probably have to say that I prefer > the Stephen Fry, but for a rather superficial reason: > I like to have the "real" wordings. I don't like the > translations to American English. Each reader has > their own strengths. I prefer Stephen Fry's Dobby, > for instance. But I like Jim Dale's rather dry drawl. > All in all, the little differences don't make that much > difference to me, but some people may find Dale's drawl > more annoying, even though _I_ rather like it. I like > a LOT of Rufus Beck's voices, but I absolutely cannot > abide his Rita Skeeter (Rita Kimmkorn in German). He > gives her a slangy American accent (Ya, know) and I > find it completely annoying (I am an American) - my > German friends find it highly amusing (I think they > enjoy poking fun at Americans). I do NOT like > the French version very well. It makes Hagrid sound > like a complete moron and everyone else sounds like > they are spitting. I recently listened to all 5 books > by Stephen Fry and I am now in the middle of listening > to the Jim Dale versions again. [I listen in the car > when I am driving anywhere.] I prefer Stephen Fry's > Kingsley Shacklebolt, but I like Jim Dale's Mad Eye > Moody. I would like to try the Spanish versions, but > they are too expensive for me. > > Laura Walsh lwalsh at a... I agree both the Jim Dale and Stephen Fry have their merits. I find I listen to the Fry versions more but he does some annoying things in my opinion most in book 5 though. He gives Susan Bones a lisp. This does distinguish her but is not really necessary. I guess you do this many characters and you want to liven things up. I can't stand the "Weasly is our king" lyrics in his version. The Jim Dale version has them sung like a song but Fry's version makes them sound like a weird chant. They are both very good at what they do so I would think anyone would be happy with either one. It depends on which you can get also. Living in the US I had to order the Fry version from overseas so there was shipping etc to consider. Ebay is the place I found the Fry version. Brent From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 22 06:24:45 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:24:45 -0000 Subject: Staying at No. 4 was "a much pleasanter reason" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "golden_faile" wrote: > Aren't we forgetting the fact that he has to call #4 Privet Drive > home in order to remain safe from Voldemort? I do think that this is the last summer for that to be applicable. 'Next summer' he will be 17 on his birthday and become a legal adult so I don't think it will be necessary for him to return after this summer. Karen (hoping that this means that whatever the reason for his early departure, it is preceeded by some long overdue home truths being directed at the Dursleys!) From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 06:26:17 2005 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:26:17 -0000 Subject: Haven't been here in a long time... questions on transportation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131140 Hello all! I haven't been on this board in a VERY long time. But, since the new book is about to come out I have been having lots of theories about the book and was wanting other fans to discuss with. Anywho, since it has been so long, this might have been addressed already, but... I have always wondered about the floo network and portkeys at Hogwarts. We know that portkeys have been able to transport students to and from Hogwarts (specifically in Dumbledors office) And if Harry can let his head transport through floo powder to another fire, and Sirius can transport his head to Hogwarts through the fire, there has been a connection both ways, which would lead one to assume that there entire body can travel through the floo network to and from Hogwarts. Has anyone else thought this peculiar? Again, I hope this has not been over discussed, and I apologise if it has. ~Mo From Schlobin at aol.com Wed Jun 22 06:29:46 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:29:46 -0000 Subject: Audio Versions of the Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131141 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brent" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Lynn Walsh > wrote: > > >Hi All. Has any one read the audio versions of the books? Both the > > >US and the UK versions? What I mean is the US and Canadian versions > > >are read by Jim Dale and the others are read by Stephen Fry I > > >think; I am just wondering what people think of both these > > >narrators and their style of reading? I personally have only heard > > >the books read by Jim Dale and not by Stephen Fry. PS Does anyone > > >know whether Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them and Quidditch > > >Through The Ages are available in another format besides print? > Like > > >Audio Tape or CD? Because I have these 2 books in Print but I was > > >just wondering whether they are available in any more formats. PS > > >What is a Kneazle? I read it once in Fantastic Beasts and Where to > > >Find Them but I forget what it is. Many Thanks. > > > > > >From Mich Verrier from Elk Lake Ontario > > >Canada. > > > > I have listened to all 5 audiobooks many, many times > > read by Stephen Fry, Jim Dale, and (in German) Rufus > > Beck. I have also listened to the l'ecole des Sorciers > > in French. I would probably have to say that I prefer > > the Stephen Fry, but for a rather superficial reason: > > I like to have the "real" wordings. I don't like the > > translations to American English. Each reader has > > their own strengths. I prefer Stephen Fry's Dobby, > > for instance. But I like Jim Dale's rather dry drawl. > > All in all, the little differences don't make that much > > difference to me, but some people may find Dale's drawl > > more annoying, even though _I_ rather like it. I like > > a LOT of Rufus Beck's voices, but I absolutely cannot > > abide his Rita Skeeter (Rita Kimmkorn in German). He > > gives her a slangy American accent (Ya, know) and I > > find it completely annoying (I am an American) - my > > German friends find it highly amusing (I think they > > enjoy poking fun at Americans). I do NOT like > > the French version very well. It makes Hagrid sound > > like a complete moron and everyone else sounds like > > they are spitting. I recently listened to all 5 books > > by Stephen Fry and I am now in the middle of listening > > to the Jim Dale versions again. [I listen in the car > > when I am driving anywhere.] I prefer Stephen Fry's > > Kingsley Shacklebolt, but I like Jim Dale's Mad Eye > > Moody. I would like to try the Spanish versions, but > > they are too expensive for me. > > > > Laura Walsh lwalsh at a... > > I agree both the Jim Dale and Stephen Fry have their merits. I find > I listen to the Fry versions more but he does some annoying things in > my opinion most in book 5 though. He gives Susan Bones a lisp. This > does distinguish her but is not really necessary. I guess you do > this many characters and you want to liven things up. I can't stand > the "Weasly is our king" lyrics in his version. The Jim Dale version > has them sung like a song but Fry's version makes them sound like a > weird chant. They are both very good at what they do so I would > think anyone would be happy with either one. It depends on which you > can get also. Living in the US I had to order the Fry version from > overseas so there was shipping etc to consider. Ebay is the place I > found the Fry version. > > Brent I also like both versions (Fry; Dale). I like to order the UK books because I have been upset and aggravated ever since the U.S. publishers insisted the title of the first book be changed. As a citizen of the U.S.A., I must state that not all of us are ignoramuses, some of us read....every single time I see the movie where Hermione says to Ron and Harry "don't you read?"..I want to scream YES WE DO, AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE SORCERER"S STONE......the PHILOSOPHER'S STONE is based in history..Nicholas Flamel..the alchemists....urggghhhhh... Anyway, it's cheaper/easier to get Jim Dale here in the States. I love Jim Dale..and both my kids (now age 5 and 7) have listened to him....my 7 year old is now reading the Philosopher's Stone himself...and is threatening to steal the HPB from my partner and me... One thing I want to say --- the audio tapes for HP often spoil you for other audio tapes...they are SO GOOD!...BBC version of the LOTR's is also good Susan McGee...Humboldt County, California From Schlobin at aol.com Wed Jun 22 06:36:25 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:36:25 -0000 Subject: Will Ginny be a prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131142 I think Ginny is a cinch for a prefect. What an amazingly strong character she has turned out to be. She's on the Quidditch team; she's quite popular; she's a member of the D.A...... No question that she'll be picked. Susan McGee in the wilds of northern California "If you're interested in a small informal list and you're over 40, come check out Harry Potter for Grownups Over 40 -- email me at SusanGSMCGee at aol.com for more details" From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 22 06:38:48 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:38:48 -0000 Subject: Audio Versions of the Books In-Reply-To: <017101c576da$21634870$655ae2d1@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mich Verrier" wrote: > Hi All. Has any one read the audio versions of the books? Both the > US and the UK versions? What I mean is the US and Canadian versions > are read by Jim Dale and the others are read by Stephen Fry I > think; I am just wondering what people think of both these > narrators and their style of reading? I am about halfway through OotP on my second 'hearing' of the audio books by Stephen Fry. The first time I heard them I was totally blown away because when I read something I enjoy, I rattle through the books so quickly that I miss a lot of the detail. Even though I make a conscious decision not to do that, I can't stop myself. When I listened to the audio, I picked up LOADS of things I had missed in the original readings - for that reason I would heartily recommend the audio to everyone. I love Stephen Fry anyway, so am biased in his favour, but I think he reads the books wonderfully. I don't really fancy listening to the American version to be honest - I think the Americanization of English (bangs for fringe, sorcerer for philosopher etc) would just irritate me!! Sorry! Karen Karen From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jun 22 06:54:18 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:54:18 -0000 Subject: Haven't been here in a long time... questions on transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131144 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fauntine_80" wrote: Mo: > I have always wondered about the floo network and portkeys at > Hogwarts. We know that portkeys have been able to transport students > to and from Hogwarts (specifically in Dumbledors office) And if Harry > can let his head transport through floo powder to another fire, and > Sirius can transport his head to Hogwarts through the fire, there has > been a connection both ways, which would lead one to assume that there > entire body can travel through the floo network to and from Hogwarts. > > Has anyone else thought this peculiar? Geoff: I don't see why this is odd? Using a portkey and using the fireplace Floo network to speak to someone (rather than travelling there) seems to happen in a number of places, why not Hogwarts? Surely the only thing which cannot be achieved in and out of the school is Apparating? Perhaps I am missing the thrust of your question? From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Jun 22 07:40:55 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:40:55 -0000 Subject: Forgiving Snape / was Re: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: <000f01c576d8$93adedb0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131145 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > Tonks: > > 1. It allows Harry to move on with his life and not be bound to > Snape because of his anger towards Snape. Harry can let it go for > his own sake. This is good mental health. As the saying goes the > best way to get even with an enemy is to live well. Perhaps in actual life - for certain kinds of people with certain kinds of belief systems in certain kinds of situations. For other kinds of people with other beliefs in other situations this just ain't gonna work. As a psychologist friend of mine who specializes in abuse cases often says, "sometimes nothing in the world is healthier than hatred." The philosophy of whether Harry should forgive Snape can be argued in either direction from multiple standpoints. From a certain perspective it would be healthy to do so, and morally appropriate. >From another moral and psychological perspective it would be selfish and irresponsible. In one kind of situation it might be a sign of maturity and even a kind of vengeance (as Horace Bushnell said "oh what a terrible thing it is to be forgiven"). In another kind of situation it would be profoundly unhealthy and destructive of self. Some hold that time heals all wounds. Others, such as Emily Dickinson, say that time only makes the scars deeper and stronger. But the question at hand here is would it make for a good story? I think if done explicitly and for the reasons stated here, the answer is "no." It would amount to preaching and heavy-handed moralizing of the type JKR claims to hate. > > Sherry now > > Why does there need to be either retribution or forgiveness? I would > consider Harry to be acting in a very mature fashion, if he decided he still > hated Snape's guts, realized he had to work with him till Voldemort was > defeated, then turned his back on Snape and never dealt with him again. > Neither forgiving nor taking vengeance, but living his life with Snape not > affecting it either way. I don't think Harry has to forgive to be mature or > even to be the better man. I think he can choose to do neither and allow > indifference to be his main feeling toward Snape someday. And even if he > does forgive, let us remember, that forgiveness does not necessarily mean > forgetting. > Once again, I think we need to ask what would make a good story. What would be an appropriate and believable end to the character arcs traced by these two people? Within the context of the story JKR has laid out so far, coming to such a non-end would hardly be satisfying or particularly logical. Now, I grant you that such happens in life often enough, but stories are not the real world. They operate by an internal logic and process often quite different than reality. And the particular processes of the Harry/Snape relationship so far don't seem to admit of such a conclusion (or lack thereof). In order to make this "fit," JKR would have to alter their trajectory radically. So far we have seen little evidence of this. HBP may provide it - and I think will have to provide it if JKR wants such an end and hopes to pull it off. Lupinlore From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Wed Jun 22 08:04:41 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:04:41 -0000 Subject: Apparating -- Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131146 Steve sets out very clearly the possible Apparating glitches involving Wiz Sober and Wiz Overhung, and points out that intention is crucial to (most?) magic ? at this point we all think about the magic Harry did before he even knew it existed. But what about Harry before he thought at all? The intentions of a baby are pretty obvious and unsophisticated: Want Milk! Need New Nappy! Need But Do Not Want Sleep! Pat Doggy! Pull Tail! Waaah! And they don't seem to be directional ? they require a change of state but not a change of place. OK, so, back to Godric's Hollow one more time: is it possible to Apparate while carrying a baby? And if it is, why wasn't it done, by either James or Lily, in order to prolong the life of their child even if just for a few minutes longer? Any parent would think those few minutes were worth while ... Deborah, waiting for the real thing but having fun meanwhile From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 08:28:12 2005 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:28:12 -0000 Subject: Audio Versions of the Books In-Reply-To: <017101c576da$21634870$655ae2d1@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131147 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mich Verrier" wrote: > Hi All. Has any one read the audio versions of the books? Both the > US and the UK versions? What I mean is the US and Canadian versions > are read by Jim Dale and the others are read by Stephen Fry I > think; I am just wondering what people think of both these > narrators and their style of reading? I personally have only heard > the books read by Jim Dale and not by Stephen Fry. > > From Mich Verrier from Elk Lake Ontario > Canada. Sue here: I have heard both Jim Dale and Stephen Fry. Both are excellent. I have only heard one by Jim Dale, mind you, and that was because I couldn't get hold of the Fry version from my library and I wasn't prepared to pay A$250 to find out, but I was very pleasantly surprised. Go to your local library and see if the Stephen Fry versions are available. If you like Dale, you'll also enjoy Fry. He is one of the top actors in Britain. From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 09:17:16 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:17:16 -0000 Subject: Mundungus banned from the Hog's Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131148 > Rachael: > I don't know if this has already been discussed, but does anyone have > any theories why Mundungus was banned from the Hog's Head 20 years > ago? (OotP) That's about the time that Voldemort was on the rise and > possibly about the time that the prophecy was made in the Hog's Head > (correct me if I'm wrong). Finwitch: He was caught redhanded trying to steal something - beverage or money. What ever it was, I believe Albus Dumbledore saved Mundungus *then* (I recall Sirius telling Harry this happened) from the wrath of Aberforth. Rachel: > And if it is Aberforth that's the barman at the Hog's Head (and > therefore the one that banned Mundungus), do you think there's a rift > between Aberforth and Dumbledore? Finwitch: Think he is, but as for the rift, well... 1)Dumbledore's spending his Christmases at Hogwarts, Aberforth nowhere in sight - why don't the two get together unless there was? During OOP, he MIGHT have spent the holiday with Aberforth, though. 2)Consider Dumbledore's desire (Unlike harry, I believe he was honest). "I see myself holding a pair of thick socks. Another year gone and I didn't get a single pair. People keep insisting on giving me books". -- and "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising improper charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No, he held his head up and went about his business as usual- then again, I'm not entirely certain he can read, so it might not have been bravery". At the very least, I believe there WAS a rift between them when Dumbledore was looking at the Mirror of Erised. Would a 'don't know if he's literate'-brother send books for christmas? No, it may have been that Aberforth sent Albus socks until this rift came about and sent nothing at all... It might be: Aberforth thinks Albus has banned his pub from students... Rachel: > Or maybe Mundungus was banned because he's the one that snitched on > Aberforth for performing inappropriate charms on a goat! Finwitch: Definate thing to Aberforth get angry about. Particularly if he did no such thing... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 09:30:54 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:30:54 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131149 Saraquel: Then, we can also see what > questions still remain after we've read HBP. > > Here are some that have stuck in my head: > > All quotes are from the British editions: > > PS p45: (Hagrid about Harry's parents) "Suppose the myst'ry is why You- > Know-Who never tried to get 'em on his side before..." Why would LV > particularly want them on his side and - before what? > > GOF p500 (Harry's dream during divination) "He was riding on the back > of an EAGLE owl.." (my capitals) - the Malfoy's owl is an eagle owl. > > POA p315 (Sirius' letter to Harry) "I used your name but told them to > take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred and eleven." - > why tell Harry the number of the vault. > > OOTP p158 (Moody showing Harry the Order photograph) "Caradoc > Dearborn, vanished 6 months after this, we never found his body ..." > Confession of a hopeful obsession - is this the HBP - OK confession > over, but mark my words, Caradoc will reappear... > Finwitch: Just a few theories of mine: As for the Eagle Owl, Harry may have seen the events in Riddle House trough it's eyes... and it IS a Malfoy Owl. Harry just didn't realise it until he was sharing senses with an owl the second time. As for telling Harry the vault number -- yes, it's odd. Maybe it's to subtly say Harry's authorised to use it as his own? Or just to say how much Sirius trusts Harry? Curious that Harry, Hermione or Ron *don't* wonder about that. Another matter that *might* come up later - Sirius returns in some form but can no longer become Padfoot. How, but by Vault number, could he convince Harry he truly is Sirius and not some evil Metamorphmagus just pretending? Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 10:20:21 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:20:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius-Barty parallels / Poisoned Sirius (was:Re: Sirius as Father Figure...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131150 > >>Finwitch: > >I think the idea of Sirius being fed that plant that causes > recklessness etc. IS true. It hit me right as Harry was reading about > the plant - is someone feeding it to Sirius? > >As for Kreacher doing it -- Sirius wanted breakfast and began calling > Kreacher. So if Kreacher usually makes his food he certainly had > opportunity. > > >For all we know, Narcissa gave it to Kreacher with instructions...< > > > Betsy Hp: > The first instance of unstable behavior, IMO, is the first fireplace > chat Sirius has with Harry where he tells Harry that he's a lesser > man than his father. And that came only a week after Harry et al > left for Hogwarts. That's part of the reason I doubt Kreacher is the > culprit, because it's before he's given the command to get out and > goes for a nice little visit with Mrs. Malfoy. Finwitch: Well, I interpret that Fire-place discussion quite differently. For one thing, the most beautiful thing of Sirius (god)parenting (in GoF in particular) is the way he's willing if not eager to risk everything just to be with Harry. Harry's upset and Sirius suggests meeting (which in some ways could actually be safer than the monitored fire-place - not if they meet in the cave and Harry brings James' invisibility cloak for extra measure). Harry declines - 'not safe'. As if Sirius wasn't aware of the risk (which he was, but was willing to take it). In other words, they can't meet because Harry doesn't have enough nerve. Don't forget that 'their daring, nerve and chivalry set Gryffindors apart' - which is a set of values Harry's 'stay safe' violates, and sort of undermines Sirius' willingness to take risks... And well, just as Harry didn't appreciate his own safety all that much when Dobby tried to keep him from coming to Hogwarts... neither does Sirius. I'd say Sirius was disappointed that Harry didn't have the nerve to dare meet him... (and so Sirius would get out of the Black house he hated). And Sirius told Harry that he'd prefer a Dementor-attack to staying put in that house previously. And what he said was: "You're less like your father than I thought. Risk would have been what made it fun for James". Not that he's a lesser man. More of a rebuke of not having enough nerve to take risks... they ARE Gryffindors, after all. I wonder what would have happened if Sirius had been able to meet Harry -- shortly in the cave and then fly off on Buckbeak again. I actually believe they could have pulled it off without Umbridge noticing. Finwitch From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 11:26:26 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:26:26 -0000 Subject: Apparating -- Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131151 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > OK, so, back to Godric's Hollow one more > time: is it possible to Apparate while carrying a baby? And if it > is, why wasn't it done, by either James or Lily, in order to > prolong the life of their child even if just for a few minutes > longer? Any parent would think those few minutes were worth while... At a guess, it's not possible (or it's difficult/risky) to Apparate with another person, else why bother with the broomflight from Privet Drive, or the annual rigamarole of getting Harry and the Weasley kids to Platfom 9-3/4? Even if it's possible to Apparate with a baby, we know that Dumbledore can cast an anti-apparition spell of some sort (he does so at the Ministry to keep the Death Eaters from escaping), so presumably Voldy could and did do the same at Godric's Hollow. Speaking of Apparition, if I were Dumbledore--given Harry's propensity for finding himself in bad places--I think I'd try to find a way to teach him early. Or,at least, provide him with a Portkey for emergencies. For that matter, emergency Portkeys would be a pretty good way to protect the population as a whole (assuming, of course, that there isn't some easy way for Tommy's Toerags to interfere with them). Fudge is on his way out, I wonder if the new Minister would be open to this sort of thing for the duration? Amiable Dorsai From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 11:33:52 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:33:52 -0000 Subject: Sirius-Barty parallels / Poisoned Sirius (was:Re: Sirius as Father Figure...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131152 > Finwitch wrote : > > Well, I interpret that Fire-place discussion quite differently. For > one thing, the most beautiful thing of Sirius (god)parenting (in GoF > in particular) is the way he's willing if not eager to risk > everything just to be with Harry. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Well, I think that was part of the problem, I think Sirius wanted to be with Harry, to protect him, and also just to have a friend. It seems, if Sirius had Lupin and Harry around, it would be more like James was back with them. Finwitch wrote: I'd say Sirius was disappointed that Harry didn't have > the nerve to dare meet him... (and so Sirius would get out of the > Black house he hated). And Sirius told Harry that he'd prefer a > Dementor-attack to staying put in that house previously. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: In a way, Sirius was just a kid himself still. Most time's, being a parent, I think means doing what you should do and must do, not what you want to do. And, that was part of the problem. Of course, I think Sirius wanted to get out of the house for more than just he hated the house, he also has been locked up for 12 years in prison, so, now he probably feels like he is locked up again. Still, I think he should have realized what was at stake, if he were killed or captured, Harry would loose someone he loved, and, maybe Sirius didn't think that far along into it, and yes, the Griffindor bravery, he had to live up to it of course. Also, wasn't it Snape that contacted Sirius to find out if he was captured....or, I forget, will have to go back and look. I can just imagine the scene, where Snape is telling Sirius to stay put......I'm sure that went over like a snowball in hell. Still, I think Sirius, being that he knows how Snape is, is just as stubborn and unforgiving as Snape. if Snape should be the one to get over it, then I think Sirius also should have been the better man and got over it. But, well, we have no idea what they both need to get over....the pensive scene shows us something of there rivalry. I'll say, Sirius was more fired up to attack Snape that James was (even though James did most of the attacking), so, what else are the two so all fired up mad about. I still say, there is more going on between Sirius and Snape, there is way to much anger between them. Finwitch wrote: > And what he said was: "You're less like your father than I thought. > Risk would have been what made it fun for James". Not that he's a > lesser man. More of a rebuke of not having enough nerve to take > risks... they ARE Gryffindors, after all. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Yea, I agree with this, but, its probably both. Sirius wants Harry to be James, it seems Sirius is also, living in the past, to a certain degree. But, I think that is what happens when you have lost 12 years of your young life...you wish you could get them back. KarentheUnicorn From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 11:48:43 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:48:43 -0000 Subject: Harry the Slytherin, Silly thoughs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131153 Okay, we must all remember, the Sorting Hat was going to place Harry in Slytherin, I think, Harry has his own Slytherin qualities, I don't think its just from Tom Riddle either. Just Imagine if, James and Lily were actually alive, Lets change the story a little, the two brave Griffendors....and their dear sweet child Harry...how would that have played out, if Harry actually did get into Slytherin. Would Mum and Dad be upset....hum... Dear Mum and Dad, Um, somehow I ended up in Slytherin, my head of house is a man by the name of Professor Snape. He just gave me this weird look, and then he grinned at me, like he was happy, or, it was kinda a weird grin. He's kinda greasy, and ugly, but he was very nice to me, he said he knew both of you at school. I know you said you were Griffendor, and that it would be okay if I got into another house, I hope Slytherin is okay. Love Harry Harry ending up in Slytherin....HOW Snape would have Gloated!!! How shocking would that be! What would that be like? Dear Mr. Potter, HA! JAMES POTTER you overgrown DEER! YES! We see where your bloodline is going. Your little offspring is obviously a better man than you are. Lily might not be a pureblood, but I say it all came from her. How sweet this next seven years will be, with your little son, in my care, every day. I bet you didn't see this coming, while you were planning your happy little family, and your happy little life. Oh be assured, I'm going to teach your dear little boy, everything I know. How is Lily, by the way. Maybe I'll pop in for a little chat with her, while you are out rounding with that dog Sirius. S.Snape Okay,Maybe, Two letters?? Dear Mrs. Lily Potter, I would like to congratulate you, your dear son, Harry, is a Slytherin. I know you must be proud. I assure you madam, that I can let go of past differences I have had with your Husband, and the boys..ah..father. I plan to take very extra special care of your son, now that he is in my care. I am sure it must be difficult for you, James and Sirius, always out, leaving you home with a child to care for. Ahh, the difficulties of being a mother in the wizarding world. But, knowing how caring you were in school, leads me to believe you are an excellent mother. I will gladly pop in, and, give you updates on your dear little boy, if that would be acceptable. I feel, being head of house at Hogwarts is a very worthy task, and I want each and every parent to feel like they are involved. Regards, Snape OK, so, I actually have wondered what might have been different if Harry had went to Slytherin, instead of Griffendor. KarentheUnicorn From katiebug1233 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 05:46:49 2005 From: katiebug1233 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 05:46:49 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131154 Saraquel: > Whilst reading the books, I've come across a few "one liners" which > have always puzzled me - as in, "why put in that detail?" One that has always stuck out to me was when Hermione is trying to nail Rita Skeeter in GOF and she looks up the registered animagi. She says "there have only been 6 this century" or something to that effect. Besides McGonagall, who are the others? Hermione never tells us. Kate. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Jun 22 12:23:11 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:23:11 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar (Nigellus & Connecting 4 houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "unicorn_72" wrote: > > > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > > I loved your reply, I think poor old Phineas Nigellus is a very > underplayed character, but his portrait seemed quite distressed to > know Sirius had died. I also liked how Phineas gave Harry a talking > to when he was ready to run away. > Who was it that exactly said P.N. was the worst Headmaster at > Hogwarts? I can't remember and I know it was stated at least maybe > twice that I can remember, can someone point me to the quotes of who > said it, or why he was the worst?? Hickengruendler: Sirius said in chapter 6 of OotP, that Phineas was the least favourite Headmaster Hogwarts ever had. It's when he shows Harry the Black family tree. However, IMO this is not exactly the same as being the worst headmaster. Phineas is a very sarcastic fellow and he doesn't seem to have much patience for kids. He also admitted to Harry in the chapter that plays at Christmas in Grimmauld Place, that he loathed being a teacher. Therefore it's IMO easy to see, why he was unpopular, especially among the kids. But I don't think, that that makes him necessarily the worst Headmaster, or that worst and most disliked is the same in this case. He could have done his work otherwise properly, but still be disliked, because of his sarcastic nature. (Not to mention that after OotP he probably has a pretty strong competition in the least favourite Headmaster spot, after the short reign of Cruella). > It also seems JKR has a thing for the use of 'US' in a name, and > making them the nasty people...Nigellus...Severus....how come I'm > seeing a connection here??? Hickengruendler: Sirius, Remus, Albus, Rubeus, Filius... ;-) From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 12:44:48 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:44:48 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar (Nigellus & Connecting 4 houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131156 > > Hickengruendler wrote: > > Sirius, Remus, Albus, Rubeus, Filius... ;-) KarentheUnicorn's reply: HOLY COW PIE BATMAN, DUH..I didn't even think of them...meh..sorry I just woke up...but still, whats up with the US in names......hum...OK, wait...Maybe the US means good!!! Could Snape and Nigellus really be good because they have the US in their name! DANG..wait Lucius...CRAP..their goes that theory to...meh, I need to wake up! WAIT...whats with the US...ARGGggg!, I since a patter here, maybe its a wizard thing! KarentheUnicorn From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 22 13:19:28 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:19:28 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Audio Versions of the Books In-Reply-To: <017101c576da$21634870$655ae2d1@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: <001701c5772d$05795ac0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 131157 Hi All. Has any one read the audio versions of the books? Both the US and the UK versions? What I mean is the US and Canadian versions are read by Jim Dale and the others are read by Stephen Fry I think; I am just wondering what people think of both these narrators and their style of reading? I personally have only heard the books read by Jim Dale and not by Stephen Fry. PS Does anyone know whether Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them and Quidditch Through The Ages are available in another format besides print? Like Audio Tape or CD? Because I have these 2 books in Print but I was just wondering whether they are available in any more formats. PS What is a Kneazle? I read it once in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them but I forget what it is. Many Thanks. >From Mich Verrier from Elk Lake Ontario Canada. Sherry now: I've only ever heard bit and pieces of the Fry recordings. i've heard the difference described as Fry is a more laid back reader, doesn't do all the voices that Dale does. Personally, as one who has read audio for years, I usually prefer readers who have a lot of inflection and who use different voices for main characters. With Jim Dale, I always know what character is speaking, even when I book is new and the dialog isn't attributed to any particular character. However, I would love to have the Fry recordings, to be able to hear the original UK editions without the silly language changes. As to Fantastic Beasts and Quidditch through the Ages, I don't know if they were ever recorded on commercial audio. They have been embossed in braille, and the US national library service for the Blind has recorded them. Sherry From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed Jun 22 13:24:36 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:24:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Forgiving Snape / was Re: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050622132436.44200.qmail@web86203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131158 --- lupinlore wrote: > Once again, I think we need to ask what would make a > good story. What > would be an appropriate and believable end to the > character arcs > traced by these two people? To me it would be something like this: There is a situation where Harry needs to trust either Snape, or information that comes from Snape. Harry does not, some people are killed, possibly including Snape himself. Only then would they come to a catharsis, if you will. Irene ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jun 22 13:35:53 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:35:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry the Slytherin, Silly thoughs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001e01c5772f$50b27c90$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 131159 Unicorn-72 wrote Okay, we must all remember, the Sorting Hat was going to place Harry in Slytherin, I think, Harry has his own Slytherin qualities, I don't think its just from Tom Riddle either. Sherry now: Actually, we don't know that. The sorting hat didn't say anything either way, till Harry said, "not Slytherin." Then the hat began to question him about it. Harry assumes that the hat would have put him there, if he hadn't asked not to be, but I wonder if it really would have. Before Harry said his first "not Slytherin" the hat was pointing out how he had characteristics from all the houses. It would have been interesting to see where the hat would have sorted him, if he hadn't been so adamant about not going to Slytherin. But There's no reason to think it would necessarily have ended up being Slytherin. Harry does have many Slytherin qualities, but he also has qualities of all the houses, as I suppose most people do. As his character has developed, I think he is still essentially Gryffindor. Sherry From labmystc at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 12:30:55 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:30:55 -0000 Subject: Haven't been here in a long time... questions on transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131160 Geoff: > Using a portkey and using the fireplace Floo network to speak to > someone (rather than travelling there) seems to happen in a number of > places, why not Hogwarts? > > Surely the only thing which cannot be achieved in and out of the school > is Apparating? > > Perhaps I am missing the thrust of your question? Chris: I think where he may be leading is the general idea of safety at Hogwarts. The school is supposed to be one of the safest locations in the WW. We know people can't disapparate or apparate within the school grounds (although some have done it: house elves and DD come to mind. However, people can arrive through the Floo Network and by using a Portkey. So how is this safe if people can show up just as easily as apparating? I think that's the gist? The probable response is: Both usage of portkeys, and travelling via the Network are strictly monitored by the Ministry. Portkeys are to be registered and the Network is policed. However, we have seen gaps in this protection before. DD and Mad-Eye Barty have both conjured unauthorized portkeys, and of course Sirius has travelled the Floo Network without being caught (almost, but not quite). So there are gaps. However, I think that the school probably has protections against these kinds of things as well. Also, I think the reason everyone in the WW believes the school is safe is not due to the magical protections it has, but because Dumbledore is its headmaster. Just MHO. Chris From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Wed Jun 22 13:47:15 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:47:15 -0000 Subject: Harry the Slytherin, Silly thoughs In-Reply-To: <001e01c5772f$50b27c90$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131161 Unicorn-72 wrote: > Okay, we must all remember, the Sorting Hat was going to place Harry > in Slytherin, I think, Harry has his own Slytherin qualities, I > don't think its just from Tom Riddle either. Sherry wrote: > Actually, we don't know that. The sorting hat didn't say anything either > way, till Harry said, "not Slytherin." Then the hat began to question him > about it. Harry assumes that the hat would have put him there, if he hadn't > asked not to be, but I wonder if it really would have. Before Harry said > his first "not Slytherin" the hat was pointing out how he had > characteristics from all the houses. Rachael: I don't have my book with me, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that the sorting hat mentions qualities from all the houses EXCEPT Hufflepuff, which I've always found interesting. Why leave just Hufflepuff out when Ravenclaw is included? Rachael From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 22 12:57:55 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:57:55 +0100 Subject: apparating in and out of Hogwarts Message-ID: <002901c5772a$032e39a0$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 131162 Regarding apparating in and out of Hogwarts, it isn't just Hermione who protests regarding this theory in PoA. Snape, in Chapter 22, protests against it to Fudge during his tantrum in the Hospital Wing. He clearly tells Fudge that you can't apparate in and out of Hogwarts. Whatever we might think about Snape (and I personally feel it's time Dumbledore gave him an ultimatum regarding his unreasonable behaviour to his students), we can't get away from the fact that he's been there for over 10 years and would know the various spells protecting the castle. We read in Chapter 24 of OotP that he tells Harry that the Castle is protected by spells which will ensure the safety of the students against Voldemort's attacks. Derek From annee19 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 13:57:07 2005 From: annee19 at yahoo.com (Anne) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:57:07 -0000 Subject: Redemption for Percy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131163 > "Charlie Jones" wrote: > > > Does anyone think that Percy will redeem himself after his > disgusting behavior towards his family in the last book? I would love to see > him have a redemption scene. I don't think Percy is bad, rather very > pig headed and extremely misguided. Possibly even naieve, too. I really > > don't think he's a bad guy deep down, and I would like to be proven > > right. > Rams wrote: > I think he will too. I believe Percy does have his heart in the right > place. His enthusiastic reaction to Gryffindor winning the Quidditch > Cup in PoA and his coming to meet Ron with so much concern after the > second task in the Triwizard tournament only proves that IMHO. > > Only he has temporarily allowed himself to be blinded by ambition. (snip) Anne says: I think you make a good point, Rams. Percy is extremely ambitious, no question, but he was sorted into Gryffindor, after all, not Slytherin. Something in him, as far as the Sorting Hat is concerned, trumped ambition as his predominant quality. It could be loyalty-- either to family or to "what is right". That gives hope for Percy's redemption. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 14:14:34 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:14:34 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar (Nigellus & Connecting 4 houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131164 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "unicorn_72" wrote: > > I'll vote for Rowena Ravenclaw was Salizar's Slytherin's main > sqeeze, and Helga Hufflepuf is Godrick's Griffendor's > girl....or..maybe its the other way around... Tonks: You are overlooking another posibility. Maybe, they were all *Religious*. That is a noun. Women Religious (members of a religious order) were often of Noble birth and would have been equal with the men. Tonks_op From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 14:29:46 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:29:46 -0000 Subject: apparating in and out of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <002901c5772a$032e39a0$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Thorburn" wrote: > Regarding apparating in and out of Hogwarts, it isn't just Hermione > who protests regarding this theory in PoA. Snape, in Chapter 22, > protests against it to Fudge during his tantrum in the Hospital Wing. > He clearly tells Fudge that you can't apparate in and out of Hogwarts. You know, I've got a funny feeling that we're being set up. We've seen a character Apparate, or do something very much like it, at Hogwarts-- In CoS, Dobby disappeared from Harry's grip with a loud crack when Colin Creevey was brought in. Now, house elf magic may be a bit different than human, but one exception implies the possible existence of others. If I'm right, the scene where Hermione learns about this should be priceless! Amiable Dorsai From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 22 14:41:35 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Audio Versions of the Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050622144135.74159.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131166 susanmcgee48176 wrote: One thing I want to say --- the audio tapes for HP often spoil you for other audio tapes...they are SO GOOD!...BBC version of the LOTR's is also good Susan McGee...Humboldt County, California That is the truth. The HP audios were my first audio book experience. Others I have tried since do not compare. I only have the Jim Dale (US) version and I like them. I will say that he bugs me in several ways: all the girls sound like whiny twits and in book 5 he givesLe Strangee a french accent which is also obnoxiously whiny. She is not French and he didn't give her one in the previous book. My daughter and I listen to them all the time during our commute to and from work/school. She loves them as well. theotokos Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 22 14:45:35 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Audio Versions of the Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050622144535.52508.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131167 Karen Barker wrote: I love Stephen Fry anyway, so am biased in his favour, but I think he reads the books wonderfully. I don't really fancy listening to the American version to be honest - I think the Americanization of English (bangs for fringe, sorcerer for philosopher etc) would just irritate me!! Sorry! Karen To my understanding the publishers quit doing that after the first book. I do know later books have "fringe" and "jumper" and "trainers" in them. theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ewe2 at 4dot0.net Wed Jun 22 14:15:10 2005 From: ewe2 at 4dot0.net (ewe2) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:15:10 +1000 Subject: What makes Voldy run? Message-ID: <20050622141510.GA13521@4dot0.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131168 >From an iceberg floating somewhere outside Theory Bay, a penguin speaks: I've been rereading OotP in preparation for HBP revelation, and a question is nagging still: WHY is Voldy doing all this? What's his motivation (and by extension, the DE's)? Ok, so we know he has a hankering for eternity, and desires to prove that he's Top Wizard. We know he has a problem with his upbringing and practically reinvented himself. WHY? The story given thus far doesn't add up to a satisfactory reason why he should need immortality so badly. What made Voldy fear death so? DD has been giving us little hints all the way through about his preferred attitude towards death ("there are worse things", "to the organized mind, death is but the next greatest adventure"), and perhaps we can feel something of Voldy's attitude in Harry, who has been undecided up to this point. Is it narcissism? Egomania? Why polarize the WW, gathering a bunch of hangers-on, and presumably threaten the Muggle world? Apart from hating Muggles, do Muggles have anything to do with his plans? Another big hint from DD: Voldy is afraid of love. I'm sure plenty of people are, but they don't go around claiming they cannot die as a result. If I have a hope for HBP, it's that we get get further away from the cartoon villian Voldemort to the more uncomfortably real Tom Riddle. One intriguing note is DD's calling Voldy Tom at the MoM, out of familiar contempt perhaps? If the WW can't call him Voldemort, don't they know his real name? Hmmm....back to fishing then. * splash * -- sed awk grep cat dd ..Im a luser baby ,so why don't you killall -kill me. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 15:04:15 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:04:15 -0000 Subject: Calling All Detectives/ Re: New Droobles Anagram? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131170 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smilingator4915" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catjaneway" wrote: > > for "Droobles best blowing gum" I went looking for another, and > > found this > > Dig D.L. bones below Urg's tomb > > D.L. being short for Dark Lord, and Urg being a goblin, perhaps Urg the Unclean mentioned in GoF (p618 US). > > > > Catjaneway: > > > In any event, I came up with "Nobles, dig below Urg's tomb". Perhaps it is a stretch, but since the next book is about a "half- blood prince", maybe this prince really is noble and he needs to get a shovel and dig below Gringotts bank, Hogsmeade, or wherever the bones of Urg the Goblin are buried. > Tonks: You guy are brilliant!! I think that you have got it. The Lexicon says that Urg lead a goblin revolt/rebelion in the 18th century. What was the revolt about? Why can only a *Noble* dig? What would a Noble be looking for? What were the Longbottoms investigating when they were caught by Bella and gang? Maybe LV has nothing to do with it directly. Maybe it has something to do with how to defeat LV. What we are looking for is something of the HBP. His bones or some other object. Maybe Urg, even in his death, is protecting some object of great value. If you are not Nobility you can not get past Urg, even now. And I think Urg's tomb is in Egypt. Bill was working there for Gringott's and he was looking at old tombs. Why?? OK, all you Aurors and detectives, get working! Tonks_op From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Jun 22 15:14:11 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:14:11 -0000 Subject: FILK: Muggle-Chopper Flee-er Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131171 I apologize to those of you who get these messages e-mailed. I deleted my first posting of this, when I noticed that I failed to include "FILK" in the subject line. Muggle-Chopper Flee-er To the tune of Sheb Wooley's The Purple People Eater Hear a MIDI at: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/9621/halwen1.htm Malfoy certainly did talk about flying a lot. He complained loudly about first years never getting on the house Quidditch teams and told long, boastful stories that always seemed to end with him narrowly escaping Muggles in helicopters. - PS/SS, Chap. 9 Here's the same story, from the helicopter pilot's point of view HELICOPTER PILOT Well, I saw this kid comin' out of the air He wore a leather thong, long blonde hair He commenced to drawlin' and I said "ooh-eee, It looks like a Muggle-chopper flee-er to me!" PILOT (& CHORUS OF MUGGLES) It was a malformed Malfoy flying Muggle-chopper flee-er (Malformed Malfoy flying Muggle-chopper flee-er) A malformed Malfoy flying Muggle-chopper flee-er Out of range from me (malformed?) PILOT Well, he had him a broom and it was mighty quick I said Junior Muggle-chopper flee-er, what's your shtik? I heard him boast in a sneer so low DRACO: I won't flee you cuz you're so slow PILOT (& CHORUS OF MUGGLES) It was a malformed Malfoy flying Muggle-chopper flee-er (Malformed Malfoy flying Muggle-chopper flee-er) A malformed Malfoy flying Muggle-chopper flee-er Out of range from me (Malfoy?) PILOT I said Junior Muggle-chopper flee-er, what's your plan? He said it's getting my own chopper for the Malfoy clan And after I take it to my secret den DRACO: I'll paint it black and sell it to the U.N PILOT (& DRACO) Well, Crabbe & Goyle, rock and royal, flyin' Muggle-chopper flee-er Under-sized, idolized, flyin' Muggle-chopper flee-er (I serve Dark Lords) Flyin' Muggle-chopper flee-er Out of range from me PILOT And then he swung round his broom and he said, I'm so cool My name can be heard in a slogan at school It was in hazy Latin quite euphonious DRACO: Sing Dra co dor miens nun quam ti til lan dus PILOT (& DRACO) Well, Crabbe & Goyle, rock and royal, flyin' Muggle-chopper flee-er Seeker boy, sneaky boy, flyin' Muggle-chopper flee-er (I like Dark Lords) Flyin' Muggle-chopper flee-er Out of range from me (Muggle Flee-er?) But with a flutter and flap, there came in a big owl With a red-hot note that began to howl >From the Magic Office of ol' Mafalda Hopkirk Saying underage magic now had better stop, jerk! (Instrumental bridge, as the Ministry owl chases Draco back to the Malfoy estate) DRACO: Kedavra - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From jane_starr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 15:26:48 2005 From: jane_starr at yahoo.com (Jane Starr) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Audio Versions of the Books In-Reply-To: <017101c576da$21634870$655ae2d1@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: <20050622152648.41983.qmail@web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131172 --- Mich Verrier wrote: > Hi All. Has any one read the audio versions of the > books? Both the > US and the UK versions? What I mean is the US and > Canadian versions > are read by Jim Dale and the others are read by > Stephen Fry I > think; I am just wondering what people think of both > these > narrators and their style of reading? Jim Dale only reads the US version - it is just that Scholastic, having missed out on the Canadian rights for the print books, managed to get their (American) audio versions into our market. If you want the original UK version which is the same as the Canadian version, get the Stephen Fry versions. I ordered them from Amazon.co.uk and was very happy with their service. Which you will prefer depends - I find people generally prefer the one they heard first. I ADORE Stephen Fry's versions but I got the Jim Dale versions from the public library and found them very irritating. Fry reads the books more the way I would read them to my kids, whereas Dale acts it out more. I never even considered buying the Dale versions because I wanted the original text and anyway, I've always liked Stephen Fry as an actor and had never heard of Jim Dale. > PS Does anyone > know whether Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them > and Quidditch Through The Ages are available in > another format besides print? Like Audio Tape or CD? Don't think so, but try searching Amazon.co.uk - if anyone has them, they will. > PS What is a Kneazle? I read it once in Fantastic > Beasts and Where to Find Them but I forget what it > is. Sort of a cat but smarter and with a tail more like a lion's. Crookshanks is half kneazle. JES (Edmonton, Alberta, Canada) __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From bethg2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 15:47:34 2005 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (Beth) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:47:34 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131173 I'm with you all on the most of the suggestions. Remus to Harry : 1.I'm not your professor anymore, call me Remus. 2.We need to talk 3. About that picture you found of Sirius and I kissing..... Okay, so I'll settle for 2 out of 3. Molly and Arthur to Harry: Look, we put a hand for you up on the clock, and stop with the Mr. and Mrs. stuff dear, first names or Aunt Molly and Uncle Arthur will be fine. Tonks: So, how do you feel about older women? Harry : Guh. Dumbledore: I hired another idiot for DADA, but at least they are on our side. You and and your friends will be commuting to the Shreiking Shack for lessons with Lupin and Shackelbolt. Beth Who would have also got a kick out of Sirius or Arthur trying to give Harry "the talk" Arthur: You see lad, there are plugs and there are outlets...... Sirius: Now, if you start the map with this password it will show you all he secluded spots in the castle. There are a few moves you can start with..... From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 15:49:02 2005 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: questions on transportation In-Reply-To: <1119426122.1880.25500.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050622154902.55006.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131174 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131175 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Ginny's parents will be very proud of her if she is a prefect, but > they must be very proud of her already for her part in the Ministry > battle. She's shown courage and loyalty and she doesn't need to prove > anything more. > > There's steel in that girl's spine, and we'll see a lot more of it > before this is over. > Alisha: If Ginny doesn't make prefect and Molly says something like, "I'm proud of you anyway. You really showed your stuff in the MoM battle." I'll be very upset. By the time Ron was 13, he had been nearly killed twice (once by a giant chess set and once by a cave-in in the home of a basilisk). He's shown courage and loyalty more times than Ginny's even had to think about it. If that wasn't enough for Molly in Ron's case, I'll be very upset if it's enough for Ginny. -Alisha: who really does think that Ginny is an incredible character, but that Ron's actions are being overshadowed by even his younger sibling. From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 16:43:42 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:43:42 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131176 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What characters > do you really want to see interacting and how? Harry to a Gringott's investment advisor: "OK, take some of the loose change in the Black Family vault and buy me a controlling interest in Grunning's Drills Limited." A random Weasley to Vernon Dursley: "How's the air holding out in that cupboard?" Harry to Draco Malfoy: "So, why are you so anxious to become a half-blood's house elf?" Draco to Lucius: "So, why are we so anxious to become a half-blood's house elves?" Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 17:09:09 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:09:09 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > So, tell me some really interesting ones I've completely failed to > notice! Madam Pomphrey commenting about 4 Aurors Stunning McGonagal at night: "As if one of them could have Stunned Minerva McGonagall face-on by daylight!" Why does Poppy think McGonagall is so formidable? Amiable Dorsai From ellydan at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 17:14:28 2005 From: ellydan at yahoo.com (Melete) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050622171428.49933.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131178 --- potioncat wrote: > > > Thursday: > > > Not saying that Severus Snape doesn't want to be > treated with > respect but I've always thought this was also just > teaching basic > good manners. > snip > > Potioncat: > Whether or not in RL England kids address adults as > "Sir" they > certainly did in fictional schoolboy stories; and > JKR uses many of > the standard fictional approaches in this series. > (Which is why, I > think, Harry was left on a doorstep in a basket.) > > As this thread has developed, I also happened to > read a section of > dialogue in OoP between Draco and Snape (erm, > Professor Snape) Just > about every other word is "sir". Then I went back > and looked at other > times I could find conversation between them. Draco > uses "sir" all > the time. Here's two examples, just quoting Draco's > lines: > I don't think I ever picked up on Draco's address of Snape. Well picked out Potioncat! Everyone keeps saying that this is antiquated and seems stifling today. I can't help but wonder how everyone else on the list addresses their elders, professors, teachers, mentors etc. Personally I went to high school 3 years in Mississippi and the only reason my history teacher didn't kick me out of her class anytime I forgot to say Ma'am is because she knew I was a Yank. Now that I've learned it, I seriously think it's just absolute good manners. I almost cringe to hear people being too informal. In the American South, it's a degree of respect you show for everyone whether or not you like them. It's certainly more of a pleasure to use such niceties when it is someone you truly do admire and respect (as I'm sure it is for Malfoy.) Ellyddan -- just a little 2 cents there. ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 16:22:32 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: apparating in and out of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050622162232.55300.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131179 --- amiabledorsai wrote: > > You know, I've got a funny feeling that we're being > set up. We've > seen a character Apparate, or do something very much > like it, at > Hogwarts-- In CoS, Dobby disappeared from Harry's > grip with a loud > crack when Colin Creevey was brought in. Now, house > elf magic may be > a bit different than human, but one exception > implies the possible > existence of others. > Jo has explained it at the website (under FAQ), here's the quote: "You say that people cannot Apparate or Disapparate within Hogwarts and yet Dobby manages it, why is this? House-elves are different from wizards; they have their own brand of magic, and the ability to appear and disappear within the castle is necessary to them if they are to go about their work unseen, as house-elves traditionally do." As for other beings, I don't think they can, only elves Juli ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 16:37:28 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius & Remus Message-ID: <20050622163728.59960.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131180 I've read everywhere that people think that Remus and Sirius are (were) a couple, I've re-read all the books looking for hints at this, but I have found none. Am I missing something, or is this just fanfic? To me both of them are straight, they are best friends, sure, but does it mean they're lovers? The only time I remember they hugged is at the Shrieking Shack, but come on, they haven't seen each other for 12 years, I think they are allowed to Hug. Is it that in the UK men *can't* hug? or something else? Juli __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From wargames at stratuswave.net Wed Jun 22 16:12:59 2005 From: wargames at stratuswave.net (uscsmarine4) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:12:59 -0000 Subject: Which School? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131181 I'm sorry if this has been addresed before, but I've been away for some time and haven't had a chacne to catch up. I was re-reading Goblet of Fire and noted that the goblet has to have the name and school of everyone who wishes to participate. This is mentioned several times through the book, but the school is never given. JKR never says what school Harry was entered under. He must have been entered under a fourth as the goblet chooses only one champion from each school. What, if any, significance is this obvious failure to say what school he was entered under. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 17:08:39 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:08:39 -0000 Subject: Redemption for Percy.? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131182 "Charlie Jones" wrote: > Does anyone think that Percy will redeem > himself after his disgusting behavior > towards his family in the last book? > I would love to see him have a redemption > scene. I don't think Percy is bad, rather > very pig headed and extremely misguided. I think Percy is more than just pig headed and misguided but I rather hope that Rowling doesn't redeem him, I think it would be far more interesting to show how members of the same family can end up on opposite sides in a civil war. I think Percy will become a Death Eater, not because he's a sadist or hates mudbloods or loves Voldemort but because he's very ambitious, has no conscience, and can make a cold calculation. It seems that in book 6 Fudge will be discredited and probably removed from power and everyone knows Percy is closely linked with Fudge so Percy will figure he has no future with the ministry and Voldemort can give him a better deal. He'll probably pretend to be sorrowful and apologize to his family so they will not be on their guard around him and then when Harry isn't looking Percy would stun him in the back, bind him with ropes and turn him over to the Death Eaters. I can then see him saying something like this to Harry: "I couldn't talk them out of it, they're going to kill you Harry but not before they've tortured you for a few days I'm afraid. It's a real shame, nobody regrets this unfortunate situation more than me but it can't be helped. I was too closely linked to Fudge and now that he has been proven to be disastrously wrong my chance for advancement within the ministry is extremely small, so it's clear that now my best bet is with the Dark Lord's team. Nothing could improve my standing with that organization more than to hand you over to He Who Must Not Be Named. I hope you understand Harry that my leading you to your death wasn't personal; I never had any animosity toward you, in fact I rather liked you but a opportunity like this doesn't come along every day, I couldn't just ignore it now could I. It was strictly a business decision not personal. Well, it looks like the Death Eaters are about ready to start working on you and as I have a rather weak stomach I'd rather not witness that, so I'll leave you now. Goodbye Harry, I don't expect we'll meet again." And then I think Percy is entirely capable of turning around walking away without another word and sleeping soundly the next night. If you think I'm being too harsh on Percy remember he happily took part in a proceeding that attempted to destroy a boy and possibly send him to Azkaban, a boy who saved his sister's life and was the best friend of his brother, he didn't visit his father in the hospital when he was near death or even ask about him, he called Umbrage "delightful" for heavens sake and she was as foul a human being as you will find. Ron understands what sort of person his brother is, he thought Percy would throw family members to the Dementors to advance his career. I found this quote from Goblet Of Fire, and remember this was before he did even more odious things in Order Of The Phoenix: "Wonder if Percy knows all that stuff about Crouch?" Ron said as they walked up the drive to the castle. "But maybe he doesn't care . . . It'd probably just make him admire Crouch even more. Yeah, Percy loves rules. He'd just say Crouch was refusing to break them for his own son." "Percy would never throw any of his family to the dementors," said Hermione severely. "I don't know," said Ron. "If he thought we were standing in the way of his career .. . Percy's really ambitious, you know. ..."" Eggplant From elanorpam at yahoo.com.br Wed Jun 22 17:59:09 2005 From: elanorpam at yahoo.com.br (Paula "Elanor Pam") Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:59:09 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? References: Message-ID: <006201c57754$236a89b0$0601010a@harrypotter> No: HPFGUIDX 131183 Hermione: "I'm starting to think there's something wrong in my approach of the House Elves' problems." Harry: "...........DUH" Harry: "Snape, I'd like to clarify the fact that I'm not my father's clone." Snape: "BlablablablalablablahARROGANT blahblahblblabalblblaHUMILIATEYOU BECAUSEI'VETHEMENTAL AGEOFAKID blalblbalbalblablblabla INEEDTHERAPY blablbalblah." Harry: *shrugs and walks off* Ron and Hermione: *sing Spamalot's Song That Goes Like This* Dumbledore: "Hey, kid, sit down, we gotta talk. Want a lemon drop?" Ginny: "Stop calling me a Mary Sue just because you can't read between lines." Draco: "No, I'm not the good slytherin." Percy: "Haha, fooled you all!! What? Can't a guy have an agenda that doesn't include either the Ministry, Lord Thingy, or Dumbledore?" Bill: "I'll be a daddy!" *faints* Grawp: "I love Charles Dickens. :D" Cho: "The therapist said this medicine will make me feel better." Marietta: "MOOOOMMYYYYYYYYY!! ;__; " Elanor Pam _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Acesso Grtis - Internet rpida e grtis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/ From mysticowl at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 18:10:17 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:10:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <20050622171428.49933.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050622171428.49933.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131184 > I don't think I ever picked up on Draco's address of > Snape. Well picked out Potioncat! Everyone keeps > saying that this is antiquated and seems stifling > today. I can't help but wonder how everyone else on > the list addresses their elders, professors, teachers, > mentors etc. Personally I went to high school 3 years > in Mississippi and the only reason my history teacher > didn't kick me out of her class anytime I forgot to > say Ma'am is because she knew I was a Yank. > > Ellyddan -- just a little I live in Canada and I addressed my high school teachers and university professors as "Sir" and "Ma'am," and so did some of my classmates. I agree Snape is a horrible person, but I think if I was his student, I'd still address him as "Sir," because it has simply been drilled into my head from childhood to respect my elders. That's why I never found his and everyone else's insistence that he be called "Sir" and "Professor" to be anything but an emphasis on good manners. Harry should stop thinking that being polite to Snape would be somehow giving into him and starts thinking that being polite to Snape is being better than Snape. Alina. From amis917 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 18:27:49 2005 From: amis917 at hotmail.com (amis917) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:27:49 -0000 Subject: Will Ginny be a prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131185 Jim Ferer: There's steel in that girl's spine, and we'll see a lot more of it before this is over. Amie: I totally agree! As I reread all of the books, I come to like Ginny even more. I think she has something really special about her. I love that scene in OOTP when she's talking to Harry about being possessed by Voldemort. "'Well, that was a bit stupid of you,' said Ginny angrily, 'seeing as you don't know anyone but me who's been possed by You-Know-Who, and I can tell you how it feels'" (OOTP hardback 499) I'm pretty sure she'll be made a prefect. If for no other reason than we don't really know any other Griffindor's in her year. -Amie From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 22 18:31:04 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:31:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: <20050622163728.59960.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > I've read everywhere that people think that Remus and > Sirius are (were) a couple, I've re-read all the books > looking for hints at this, but I have found none. Am I > missing something, or is this just fanfic? To me both > of them are straight, they are best friends, sure, but > does it mean they're lovers? The only time I remember > they hugged is at the Shrieking Shack, but come on, > they haven't seen each other for 12 years, I think > they are allowed to Hug. Is it that in the UK men > *can't* hug? or something else? I've done likewise and the only 'clue' I can come up with is Christmas during OotP when it says that Sirius and Remus gave Harry a set of DADA books. I guess it could be read that they gave a joint present as a couple, but personally I think that Sirius bought them for Harry and knowing Remus' extreme poverty said "Here you are, you can sign my gift tag too". Karen From smilingator81 at aol.com Wed Jun 22 18:26:58 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:26:58 -0000 Subject: House Elves: Beasts or Beings? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131187 I apologize if this issue has been addressed previously, but I searched and did not find anything. I have read "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them", and I had a question about house-elves... are they considered beasts or beings? It is obvious that they are treated as inferior by some of their masters, but does this fact make them "beasts". According to Scamander's book, beasts do not understand the laws of the magical community and can not help in shaping those laws. But don't house-elves have understanding of those laws? Why do they choose to remain in their subordinate position? JKR has said that house-elf magic is different from wizard magic... since house elves can apparate within Hogwarts, does it mean that elf magic is more powerful? Any thoughts? There is probably a great storyline behind house-elves and how they ended up in the position they are in. Hope JKR let's us in on the secret soon. smilingator4915 From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 18:58:37 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050622185838.11630.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131188 Karen Barker wrote: > I've done likewise and the only 'clue' I can come up with is Christmas during OotP when it says that Sirius and Remus gave Harry a set of DADA books. I guess it could be read that they gave a joint present as a couple, but personally I think that Sirius bought them for Harry and knowing Remus' extreme poverty said "Here you are, you can sign my gift tag too". Juli It's nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks they are NOT gay. I had an idea about the gift: Sirius has money but can't leave the house (and I bet owl-catalogue is out of question considering 12 GP is under Fideluis), and Remus can leave the house but doesn't have a knut, so Sirius puts the money, and Remus buys it. Or maybe they both put some money... I don't know, but a set of DADA books must be quite expensive. Juli ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From smilingator81 at aol.com Wed Jun 22 18:17:58 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:17:58 -0000 Subject: apparating in and out of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20050622162232.55300.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131189 > --- amiabledorsai wrote: "...In CoS, Dobby disappeared from Harry's > > grip with a loud > > crack when Colin Creevey was brought in. Now, house > > elf magic may be > > a bit different than human, but one exception > > implies the possible > > existence of others." Juli: > Jo has explained it at the website (under FAQ), here's > the quote: > "You say that people cannot Apparate or Disapparate > within Hogwarts and yet Dobby manages it, why is this? > House-elves are different from wizards; they have > their own brand of magic, and the ability to appear > and disappear within the castle is necessary to them > if they are to go about their work unseen, as > house-elves traditionally do." > As for other beings, I don't think they can, only > elves Yes, house-elves can apparantly apparate and disapparate at Hogwarts. But are they the only non-humans that can? After all, can't phoenixes apparate and disapparate? In CoS, "... flames erupted at the top of the nearest pillar (in the Chamber). A crimson bird the size of a swan had appeared..." The bird is of course, Fawkes. Dobby got into Hogwarts in CoS... though he was trying to help Harry out. But could Dark Wizards send their house-elves into the castle to do treacherous things? smilingator4915 From mich at ntl.sympatico.ca Wed Jun 22 11:02:50 2005 From: mich at ntl.sympatico.ca (Mich Verrier) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:02:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Haven't been here in a long time... questions on transportation References: Message-ID: <024f01c57719$eec87710$8ae1e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> No: HPFGUIDX 131190 Mo wrote: > I have always wondered about the floo network and portkeys at > Hogwarts. We know that portkeys have been able to transport students > to and from Hogwarts (specifically in Dumbledors office) And if Harry > can let his head transport through floo powder to another fire, and > Sirius can transport his head to Hogwarts through the fire, there has > been a connection both ways, which would lead one to assume that there > entire body can travel through the floo network to and from Hogwarts. > > Has anyone else thought this peculiar? Mich Verrier: I really don't think that Harry or any one else who uses the Floo Network can travel their whole body through the fire, or if they can then they do it only at certain times. The part in The Chamber of Secrets comes to mind when Harry ended up in Knockturn Alley the first time he travelled by Floo Powder. At that time he was able to climb out of the fireplace and look around at where he was. I do however think that the only way that he would just have used his head to travel through and left the rest of him where he was would have been when he needed to have a quick word with people like Lupin or some one like that. Mich Verrier. From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 19:22:35 2005 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050622192235.816.qmail@web30309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131191 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > I've read everywhere that people think that Remus and Sirius are (were) a couple, I've re-read all the books looking for hints at this, but I have found none. > Am I missing something, or is this just fanfic? To me both of them are straight, they are best friends, sure, but does it mean they're lovers? Karen responded: > I've done likewise and the only 'clue' I can come up with is Christmas during OotP when it says that Sirius and Remus gave Harry a set of DADA books. I guess it could be read that they gave a joint present as a couple, but personally I think that Sirius bought them for Harry and knowing Remus' extreme poverty said "Here you are, you can sign my gift tag too". akh adds: I think some of the notions about Remus and Sirius are due to omissions as much as to any oblique reference. In neither case is there any mention of previous girlfriends or crushes, which is particularly singular in Sirius' case, given that we've been told how handsome he was in school and thereafter (e.g., wedding picture). That he completely ignores the girls giving him the eye in the Pensieve scene in OOP is further proof, for those seeking it. The Medium That Must Not Be Named may be seen to corroborate this idea, with the addition of Snape's line in the Shrieking Shack, commenting on Remus and Sirius "quarreling like an old married couple." Personally, I'd rather think there are extenuating circumstances (i.e, JRK) preventing us from knowing about their love lives, but if it makes for a more enjoyable read for others, why not? Until it's proven wrong, that is... akh, who kind of likes her fictional heroes to be straight; she gets enough exposure to handsome gay men in real life. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cottell at dublin.ie Wed Jun 22 19:24:27 2005 From: cottell at dublin.ie (muscatel1988) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:24:27 -0000 Subject: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: <20050622163728.59960.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > I've read everywhere that people think that Remus and > Sirius are (were) a couple, I've re-read all the books > looking for hints at this, but I have found none. Am I > missing something, or is this just fanfic? To me both > of them are straight, they are best friends, sure, but > does it mean they're lovers? The only time I remember > they hugged is at the Shrieking Shack, but come on, > they haven't seen each other for 12 years, I think > they are allowed to Hug. Is it that in the UK men > *can't* hug? or something else? I don't have an opinion either way on this, but there's an interesting and rather thoughtful (if tongue-in--cheek at times) discussion of the relationship here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/elwing_alcyone/11152.html At the end, the author admits that the evidence he (?) adduces only shows that the relationship is passionate - whether passionate friends or passionate lovers is moot. But it makes one think. From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 19:32:24 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: <20050622185838.11630.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050622193224.86523.qmail@web54709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131193 It's nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks they are NOT gay. I had an idea about the gift: Sirius has money but can't leave the house (and I bet owl-catalogue is out of question considering 12 GP is under Fideluis), and Remus can leave the house but doesn't have a knut, so Sirius puts the money, and Remus buys it. Or maybe they both put some money... I don't know, but a set of DADA books must be quite expensive. Juli My reply: Remus would go and get the books and Sirius probably paid for them. That doesn't mean that they are gay that means that they both wished to give a very special boy in their lives a gift. Remus did not give Harry a gift when he was a teacher because it would be innappropriate. Remember this is the only link they have to their best friend now..and JKR was probably putting some of that in because she wanted to show a band between Remus and Harry for future books when Sirius is gone. :) ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ethel11scorpio at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 19:37:36 2005 From: ethel11scorpio at hotmail.com (Ethel) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:37:36 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius & Remus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131194 Well, if Sirius and Remus were not lovers, then Sirius, who due to certain 10 00 galleon reward did not have many chances to go out, would have been rather unloved* during his last few free years... Naah, I prefer the idea of them cuddling up before the fireplace whanever Lupin haf free time of his order duties. An then there is the matter of just... a certain feeling. Them having similar animal forms could be considered a hint, though it probably isn't. *unloved as in not loved by a consort; I don't doubt that Harry loved him or that Lupin wouldn't have loved him like a true friend, were they truly only friends. Ethel. From lliannanshe at comcast.net Wed Jun 22 20:02:55 2005 From: lliannanshe at comcast.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:02:55 -0000 Subject: Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131195 electrawman2 wrote: > I assumed it was Nott, SR, actually. IN GOF, pg 651 (American > Version) As Voldemort is walking around the circle of Death > Eaters he says, > > "The same goes for you, Nott," said Voldemort quietly a > he walked past a stooped figure in Mr. Goyle's shadows. > > Also, I believe (can't find my book right now) that he's described > as a stooped figure in the very end of OoTP when they're in the > DoM. There are several other stooped wizards mentioned . . I always assumed that it was Mr. Borgin. Chummy with Malfoy SR. in COS. COS, p51 US.ED. "A stooping man had appeared behind the counter, . . . Mr. Borgin". Perkins while not described as stooping has lumbago (Painful lower back condition)GOF US.ED pg 80. And POA US.ED. pg 42 "A stooping figure bearing a lantern . . . It was Tom, the wizened, toothless landlord." Thanks, I will add Mr. Nott to my list I seemed to have missed him. LliannanShe From mich at ntl.sympatico.ca Wed Jun 22 14:54:46 2005 From: mich at ntl.sympatico.ca (Mich Verrier) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:54:46 -0400 Subject: Harry the Slytherin, Silly thoughs References: Message-ID: <03bc01c5773a$561b10b0$8ae1e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> No: HPFGUIDX 131196 KarentheUnicorn: > OK, so, I actually have wondered what might have been > different if Harry had went to Slytherin, instead of Gryffindor. Mich Verrier Wrote: Well if Harry had ended up in Slytherin then maybe his best friends would be Draco Malfoy instead of Ron, and Millicent Bullstrode instead of Hermione. from Mich Verrier. From cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 05:11:50 2005 From: cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com (cleverestwitchofherage) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 05:11:50 -0000 Subject: Audio Versions of the Books In-Reply-To: <017101c576da$21634870$655ae2d1@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131197 Mich Verrier wrote: > Hi All. Has any one read the audio versions of the books? Both > the US and the UK versions? Cleverwitch here: Yes, I have all of the CDs--both the Jim Dale and Stephen Fry versions. They are all good, but I prefer the Jim Dale ones--the little tune that plays at the beginning and end, and the interpretations of some of the characters. Stephen Fry does Susan Bones with a lisp, and I'm not crazy about that. Sometimes--though rarely--Dale seems to forget who is talking at the beginning of a quotation, and occasionally he misinterprets a line--gives words inappropriate emphasis, for example--but overall, he does a terrific job. Which is not to say Fry doesn't, but the production value of the American version just seems more...polished. Don't know about whether the other books have been taped, and don't have them up here at my lake house to look up the information you requested. Sorry. Peace, Cleverwitch From bunniqula at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 08:27:05 2005 From: bunniqula at gmail.com (Dina Lerret) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 04:27:05 -0400 Subject: Audio Versions of the Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a273840050622012778c9a121@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131198 On 6/22/05, susanmcgee48176 wrote: > I also like both versions (Fry; Dale). > > I like to order the UK books because I have been upset and > aggravated ever since the U.S. publishers insisted the title > of the first book be changed. As an American, I'm not bothered by either the British or the Americanization--I'm not some strict purist. {g} I think, if you can *really* appreciate a work in one format and have the ability to expand upon this interest (comprehension is key), purity is irrelevant. For example, I can appreciate Shakespeare in its original format but I also can enjoy the 'modernization' of it as well. Going back to the audiobooks, am I the only one amused when folk reference 'reading' in relationship to audiobooks? {g} I think listening would be more accurate, but anyway, I've heard both versions and I like Jim Dale's rendition more than Stephen Fry's, which is not saying I'm not bugged by some things in the Dale reading. I'm not one for subtle nuances in voice and I like the aspect of the reading being a performance versus a narration. As much as Stephen Fry 'rawks', I find myself wanting more... "energy" in the readings, so Jim Dale gets my vote. Sometimes, I wonder if Jim Dale is being rated on his reading... or just his reading material. Dina From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 22 14:06:23 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:06:23 +0100 Subject: audio versions of the books Message-ID: <003b01c57733$93cde970$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 131199 I have all five Stephen Fry narrations and have pre-ordered HBP, which will come out in audio format on 25th August in the UK. I have always found Fry's narration excellent and especially like his portrayal of the Dursleys - especially Vernon, Dumbledore, Snape, Hermione and Malfoy. For those wishing to check whether or not 'Quidditch through the ages' and 'Fantastic Beasts and where to find Them' are available in audio format, I would either check Ebay or amazon.co.uk. Derek From badger.hharrington at verizon.net Wed Jun 22 14:30:59 2005 From: badger.hharrington at verizon.net (Jocelyn) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:30:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Audio Versions of the Books Message-ID: <30343827.1119450659238.JavaMail.root@vms062.mailsrvcs.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131200 >Sherry: >I've only ever heard bit and pieces of the Fry recordings. I've >heard the difference described as Fry is a more laid back reader, >doesn't do all the voices that Dale does. Personally, as one who >has read audio for years, I usually prefer readers who have a lot >of inflection and who use different voices for main characters. >With Jim Dale, I always know what character is speaking, even >when a book is new and the dialog isn't attributed to any >particular character. However, I would love to have the Fry >recordings, to be able to hear the original UK editions without >the silly language changes. I actually listened to the books (unabridged, of course)before reading them. This next one I will have to set eye to page if I want the UK version - the audio isn't due to come out until August. I actually liked the Jim Dale (U.S.) audio until I heard Stephen Fry (U.K.) I found his characterizations clearer - I could tell which character was speaking. He just does it more subtly. He is less 'theatrical' in his reading. I think he does characters without seeming to do characters, if that makes any sense. The Slytherins (Snape (at times), both Malfoys, and Phineas Nigelus all sound alike because they all have the patented Slytherin drawl. Their speech patterns are similar, but that is Rowling, not the narrator.) He conveys the 'British-ness' of the series well. His Scottish burr is quite nice. Stephen Fry, as Sherry pointed out, uses the British text, which is a big plus. Then again, my husband and I buy the British editions of the books also, though, we are American born and bred. Jocelyn From mich at ntl.sympatico.ca Wed Jun 22 14:45:47 2005 From: mich at ntl.sympatico.ca (Mich Verrier) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:45:47 -0400 Subject: Sirius-Barty parallels / Poisoned Sirius (was:Re: Sirius as Father Figure...) References: Message-ID: <039401c57739$178fabe0$8ae1e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> No: HPFGUIDX 131201 Finwitch wrote: > And what he said was: "You're less like your father than I > thought. Risk would have been what made it fun for James". > Not that he's a lesser man. More of a rebuke of not having > enough nerve to take risks... they ARE Gryffindors, after all. Mich Verrier: I am not trying to be nitpicky about this but I think that what Sirius said was "You're less like your father than I thought. The risk would have been what made it fun for James". I just wanted to add in that extra word because I remember hearing that same quote but there was a 'The' in front of the 'Risk' part. So I am just correcting that little error. from Mich Verrier. From mich at ntl.sympatico.ca Wed Jun 22 10:42:46 2005 From: mich at ntl.sympatico.ca (Mich Verrier) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:42:46 -0400 Subject: Audio Versions of the Books References: <017101c576da$21634870$655ae2d1@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: <022301c57717$221bfd60$8ae1e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> No: HPFGUIDX 131202 Laura Walsh: > I would probably have to say that I prefer > the Stephen Fry, but for a rather superficial reason: > I like to have the "real" wordings. I don't like the > translations to American English. Each reader has > their own strengths. Mich Verrier Says: I have only seen the books read by Jim Dale, I have never come across the ones read by Stephen Fry. I think that I did hear Stephen Fry read them once when I was watching an A and E Biography of JKR and they showed a part of someone reading the book and I think it was Stephen Fry but I couldn't really tell. Susan McGee: > Anyway, it's cheaper/easier to get Jim Dale here > in the States. > > I love Jim Dale..and both my kids (now age 5 and 7) have > listened to him.... > > One thing I want to say --- the audio tapes for HP often > spoil you for other audio tapes...they are SO GOOD!...BBC > version of the LOTR's is also good. Mich Verrier writes: I too agree that the BBC version of LOTR is good but so is the unab version of LOTR that is read by Rob Inglis. Well that is talking about LOTR and getting a bit off topic because this is an HP list. So let's get back to that now but that was just my thoughts on the LOTR audio versions as well. Karen: > I love Stephen Fry anyway, so am biased in his favour, > but I think he reads the books wonderfully. I don't really > fancy listening to the American version to be honest - I think > the Americanization of English (bangs for fringe, sorcerer for > philosopher etc) would just irritate me!! Sorry! Mich Verrier Writes: I don't find the change of bangs for fringe really that bad but like I say I have never heard the books read by Stephen Fry so I really have nothing to compare it to. >From Mich Verrier from Elk Lake Ontario Canada.. From mich at ntl.sympatico.ca Wed Jun 22 17:45:37 2005 From: mich at ntl.sympatico.ca (Mich Verrier) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:45:37 -0400 Subject: Audio Versions of the Books References: <001701c5772d$05795ac0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <009a01c57752$381522a0$14a223cf@michaelyxnei3t> No: HPFGUIDX 131203 Mich Verrier Wrote: I enjoy Jim Dale's reading of Harry Potter, I too like the way that he makes up different voices for the different characters. Just for your information, he holds the world record for the most character voices in a audio book for Order Of The Phoenix. And thanks for telling me that NLS has recorded Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them and Quidditch Through the Ages; I will have to contact The CNIB and see whether I can get them through them. from Mich Verrier. From arolls at igc.org Wed Jun 22 19:49:27 2005 From: arolls at igc.org (algnash) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:49:27 -0000 Subject: Calling All Detectives/ Re: New Droobles Anagram? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131204 Catjaneway wrote: > > for "Droobles best blowing gum" I went looking for another, > > and found this: > > Dig D.L. bones below Urg's tomb > > D.L. being short for Dark Lord, and Urg being a goblin, > > perhaps Urg the Unclean mentioned in GoF (p618 US). smilingator4915: > In any event, I came up with "Nobles, dig below Urg's tomb". Here's a variation (albeit using the much-despised D.E. shorthand for Death Eater): "D.E. Goblins Below Urgs Tomb " Clearly, Alice was investigating Voldie's recruiting and training of goblins in the secret passages below the (Hogwart's?) graveyard... -Algnash From lliannanshe at comcast.net Wed Jun 22 20:50:53 2005 From: lliannanshe at comcast.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:50:53 -0000 Subject: Harry the Slytherin, Silly thoughs In-Reply-To: <001e01c5772f$50b27c90$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131205 > Sherry now: > > Actually, we don't know that. The sorting hat didn't say anything either > way, till Harry said, "not Slytherin." Then the hat began to question him > about it. Harry assumes that the hat would have put him there, if he hadn't > asked not to be, but I wonder if it really would have. ...Snip... COS pg 206 US.ED. "Bee in your bonnet, Harry Potter?" "You've been wondering whether I put you in the right house," "Yes...you were particularly difficult to place. But I stand by what I said before"..."you would have done well in Slytherin-" Harry takes off the hat and does not let the sorting hat finish his statement. Like Sherry said Harry thought "not Slytherin" then the sorting hat questioned Harry about his choice. We may never know where the sorting hat would have placed Harry. LliannanShe From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 21:04:35 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:04:35 -0000 Subject: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: <20050622163728.59960.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131206 >>Julie: > I've read everywhere that people think that Remus and > Sirius are (were) a couple, I've re-read all the books > looking for hints at this, but I have found none. Am I > missing something, or is this just fanfic? To me both > of them are straight, they are best friends, sure, but > does it mean they're lovers? The only time I remember > they hugged is at the Shrieking Shack, but come on, > they haven't seen each other for 12 years, I think > they are allowed to Hug. Is it that in the UK men > *can't* hug? or something else? Betsy Hp: I like the idea of Sirius/Remus being JKR's little subversive addition to the text. There's nothing that points definitively *to* a gay relationship, but there's nothing that points *away* from one either. And there are all those delicious little hints at possible couple-hood. Remus cares deeply for Sirius, well before we learn he's innocent. (I don't see Remus lying to Dumbledore regarding any of Pettigrew's secrets.) There is of course *the Hug* (and I should surround that with little flashing hearts and stars, but I'll hold back ). There's Sirius and Remus shacking up together at the end of GoF. There's Remus's obvious influence over Sirius in OotP. Of course there's *the Gift* (again worthy of hearts and stars). And there's the distinct lack of female companions mentioned in either their school days or currently. And this in a society where early marriage seems the norm. Of course there could well be reasonable explanations for all the above without the glittery hearts and stars. But there really isn't anything anyone can point to (yet) to say see, they certainly were *not* a couple. So it's a fun and not totally out there Ship to sail on. Betsy Hp, who'd be a bit bummed if Remus suddenly hooked up with Tonks but would probably chalk it up to grief :) From jmrazo at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 21:06:54 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:06:54 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Alina wrote: > I live in Canada and I addressed my high school teachers and > university professors as "Sir" and "Ma'am," and so did some of my > classmates. I agree Snape is a horrible person, but I think if I was > his student, I'd still address him as "Sir," because it has simply > been drilled into my head from childhood to respect my elders. I don't truly understand where this idea that Harry is being disrespectful comes from. Other than peaking into his pensieve, Harry is almost always perfectly respectfuly to Snape--at least by the standards I use in my own classroom. Yes, Draco uses Sir all the time. He also happens to be a obsequious booklicker of the highest caliber. Young Malfoy is hardly the barometer I would use to measure appropriate levels of student/teacher respect. To Snapes face, Harry gives him far more respect than Draco does to *Professor* Hagrid so its not like Draco is a paragon of respectfulness. Honestly, Harry gives Snape more respect in the classroom than the man deserves. Whenever Harry is corrected by someone, he is refering to Snape, not directing a comment towards Snape himself. No one, other than the prickly Snape himself, has made mention of Harry treating Snape disrespectfully to his face. Why care what he calls Snape when Snape isn't around? Honestly, you guys make it sound like Harry is calling him a &*@##$ in the middle of the classroom. He's not. Harry gives all the respect Snape's position afords him inside the classroom that Snape is due and little respect outside the classroom because outside the classroom Snape hasn't earned any. which is fine by me. I agree that everyone else corrects Harry as a form of good manners, but I think Snape himself has a far more petty reason for insisting on the sirs. Like every other petty person who has ever gotten an ounce of authority, Snape likes to remind people of his position in order to make himself feel important. To reassure himself that he isn't the fifteen year old being picked on by the mean boys anymore. I've seen it before in other teachers who get caught up in exerting their authority for no other reason other than they can. phoenixgod2000 From mich at ntl.sympatico.ca Wed Jun 22 20:46:13 2005 From: mich at ntl.sympatico.ca (Mich Verrier) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:46:13 -0400 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is? Message-ID: <051e01c5776f$af52c6c0$14a223cf@michaelyxnei3t> No: HPFGUIDX 131208 Hi All. I am wondering who people think HBP Is? JKR has already said that it is not Harry or LV so those 2 are out. I personally think it is Neville. Also do you think that Harry is going to tell Ron and Hermione about the prophecy and that he has to either kill LV or be killed himself? Just some thoughts and I look forward to other people's responses. >From Mich Verrier. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 21:46:32 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:46:32 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131209 >>Alla: >I don't think that Slytherins' bad reputation is purely in the eye of the beholder. I also think that whoever will be the good Slytherin or Slytherins to emerge will reject the ideology of their house.< Betsy Hp: If that happens, then IMO, we're not actually getting a good "Slytherin", we're just getting a good guy. Which is boring to my mind. "Oh Harry, you're so right, and my house is so wrong! Please can I be your friend?" What will Harry have learned? Nothing about Slytherin. He won't be making use of Slytherin strengths and will therefore not be making use of the entire strength of Hogwarts. IMO, anyway. >>Alla: >We HEAR Slytherins' ideology from Draco's mouth and the gist of it is that "Muggleborns are inferiour to purebloods". That is an objective statement, which could be judged quite independently from Harry's POV.< Betsy Hp: Well, Draco certainly shares the *Malfoy* ideology to anyone who will listen. (Usually with a "my father says" thrown in for good measure.) And I agree that this ideology is wrong. It's what led his father to the Death Eaters (and kept him there) and it's an ideology that Draco will have to reject if he's to become the "good Slytherin". But I disagree that this is the *Slytherin* ideology. For one, we never hear Snape (or Phineas Nigellus for that matter) say similar things. For another we know of at least one Slytherin who rejected the ideology enough to *marry* a muggle-born. I think *Harry* thinks it's the Slytherin ideology. But that's because he's had a biased view of the house for years now. It's a bias I think he needs to get over. >>Alla: >Now, Ron, IMO does not just dislike the Slytherins. He dislikes the ideology of those who proclaims that Muggleborns witches and wizards are second class citizens. I do not agree that this is the same as ask the fan of one team about the opposing one. I think this is quite an objective stance, for which I cheered twelve year old Ron.< Betsy Hp: Here's where I disagree most strongly. Ron admits, in CoS, that he had no idea that Salazar Slytherin had only wanted to teach pure- bloods. So his dislike of the house had *nothing* to do with blood ideology. His brothers hissed at first years who were newly sorted into the house (a little young to be pure-blood ideologues, I think) so I think the sports analogy is apt. The Weasleys don't like Slytherin *because* they're Slytherin. Any logical reasons for the dislike are just icing on the cake for them. >>Alla: >...I hope that Ron won't change his stance on the ideology of Slytherin house.< Betsy Hp: Since I think Harry needs to change his view on Slytherin in order to defeat Voldemort, I disagree. Ron, if he's to be a support to Harry, definitely needs to change his view of Slytherin as well. Of course I hope Ron *doesn't* change his view on the importance (or lack thereof) of blood purity. >>Alla: >Oh, and no Betsy I don't judge them as solely as House of Voldemort. I also judge them as house of Lestrange, house of Lucius Malfoy, house of that whole infamous Slytherin gang and yes, house of Draco Malfoy.< Betsy Hp: Out of curiosity, if you *had* to judge Gryffindor based soley on Peter Pettigrew and the current actions of Percy Weasley, what view would you have of Gryffindor house? Not a positive one I'd wager. I'll also add that since Voldemort more than likely had a hand in the recruiting of Lucius, who then had a hand in the recruiting of the "Slytherin gang" and is the influential father of Draco, I feel pretty comfortable casting all of that under the heading: Shadow of Voldemort. It's a big shadow, and not something to be sneezed at. That's another reason Hogwarts (not just Harry) needs a good Slytherin to show themselves. Snape is already doing his part, IMO, but as we learned during the Occlumency lessons, Snape wasn't really a mover and shaker in his house. So I feel like this next Slytherin has to be someone the rest of the house looks up to, has pride in, and considers one of their own. (A popular prefect maybe? ) Betsy Hp From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 22 21:51:11 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:51:11 -0000 Subject: 1000 galleon reward Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131210 I'm just listening to the last of the audiobooks prior to a final read- through of the series before HBP (who are you calling sad?!) and have just come across the following that I hadn't really thought about before (it's about half-way through chapter 25 when Harry and Cho first get to Hogemead). It refers to a poster displayed in the window of Dervish and Banges "The poster 'By Order of the Minestry of Magic' offered a thousand galleon reward to any witch or wizard with information leading to the re-capture of any of the convicts pictured". As they managed to cause the re-capture of 9 (I think) of these death eaters it looks like Ron and Ginny might finally be in the money! Karen From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 22:07:33 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:07:33 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131211 >>Phoenixgod: >I don't truly understand where this idea that Harry is being disrespectful comes from. Other than peaking into his pensieve, Harry is almost always perfectly respectfuly to Snape--at least by the standards I use in my own classroom.< Betsy Hp: I think part of the difference is between new school and old school standards. Hogwarts is definitely old school and by old school standards Harry is a bit cheeky to Snape from day one and throughout the books. Harry *doesn't* respect Snape (for almost the entirety of PS/SS he thought Snape was his mortal foe) and he treats Snape as he treats the Dursleys. With subversive digs and asides that the Dursleys are too slow to pickup on but that don't slide by Snape. >>Phoenixgod: >Harry gives all the respect Snape's position afords him inside the classroom that Snape is due and little respect outside the classroom because outside the classroom Snape hasn't earned any.< Betsy Hp: As per old school, Snape has earned the respect Harry is told to show him, inside the classroom and out, by virtue of being a teacher. Full stop. Snape doesn't have to *do* anything to earn respect because he's not only an adult, he's a professor at the school Harry is attending. Harry could walk in on Snape drunk out of his mind and collapsed in a pile of naked witches. Harry would still need to address Snape as professor or sir. And he'd do well not to smirk. :) Betsy Hp From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 22:12:39 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:12:39 -0000 Subject: Harry the Slytherin, Silly thoughts In-Reply-To: <03bc01c5773a$561b10b0$8ae1e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131212 KarentheUnicorn: > OK, so, I actually have wondered what might have been > different if Harry had went to Slytherin, instead of Gryffindor. Mich Verrier Wrote: Well if Harry had ended up in Slytherin then maybe his best friends would be Draco Malfoy instead of Ron, and Millicent Bullstrode instead of Hermione. Bookworm: Now this would make an interesting AU Fanfic. How much of Harry's outlook and beliefs are shaped by Ron and Hermione? Would Draco continue to put down half-breeds if his best friend's mother was muggle-born? How would Lucius respond to his son being friends with the One who could defeat the Dark Lord? But then, if as I suspect, Lucius is playing the dangerous game of trying to use Voldemort to gain power for himself, he might welcome assistance from the One. IMO, Snape is playing up to Lucius to spy on the Death Eaters. Imagine the crimp it would put in his attitude toward Harry if Harry was in Slytherin and best friends with Draco. Ravenclaw Bookworm From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 22:35:41 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:35:41 -0000 Subject: 1000 galleon reward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131213 Karen: "The poster 'By Order of the Minestry of Magic' offered a thousand galleon reward to any witch or wizard with information leading to the re-capture of any of the convicts pictured". As they managed to cause the re-capture of 9 (I think) of these death eaters it looks like Ron and Ginny might finally be in the money! Bookworm: That would be nice, wouldn't it? Keep in mind though, the 1000 galleons should be divided between everyone who was there, including Ron, Ginny, Neville, Luna, Hermione, Harry, Remus, Mad-eye, Tonks, Kingsley, Dumbledore, and possibly Sirius. Even if, as is likely, Dumbledore and Harry refuse their shares, that leaves about 100 galleons each (about $733 or ?500). Nothing to sneer at, especially for a couple of poor teenagers, but not the $3665/?2500 it would be for just the 2 of them. (Reference: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizworld/galleons.html) Ravenclaw Bookworm From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 22 22:45:33 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:45:33 -0000 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is? In-Reply-To: <051e01c5776f$af52c6c0$14a223cf@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mich Verrier" wrote: > Hi All. I am wondering who people think HBP Is? JKR has already said that it is not Harry or LV so those 2 are out. I personally think it is Neville. > From Mich Verrier. I feel the half blood prince is highly unlikely to be Neville, as he is not Half-Blood. There is a currently lot of support (as far as I can tell) for the HBP being a historical figure who will not actually be part of the *main* plot of the book. This is supported by the fact that the Prince plotline was cut from CoS, but there are so many possibilities... I just can't wait for the book. JLV xx From swimsalone at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 21:54:15 2005 From: swimsalone at hotmail.com (swimsalone) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:54:15 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131215 > Alla said: > > Now, do we need the counterpart to those guys in Slytherin? > Absolutely, just with different ideological stance, IMO. Now Swimsalone: I agree wholeheartedly with you, Alla, in that I would enjoy seeing Slytherin counterparts to Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle who might be loyal to their house, yet oppose the pure-blood doctrine and who have no love for Voldemort. I think it would be interesting if the new "romantic interest" for Harry in HBP were, in fact, a girl from Slytherin...one whom he would find himself attracted to despite his feelings for her house (and its head). Perhaps if he found himself tutoring her in the DA and realized she was not as cruel as Pansy Parkinson or the lot he would be forced to re-evaluate his feelings toward slytherins in general. Just my two cents, Swimsalone From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 22:51:41 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:51:41 -0000 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is? In-Reply-To: <051e01c5776f$af52c6c0$14a223cf@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131216 Hi Mich, if your interested in this, there has been lots of discussion on the list starting on June 28 when the book title was revealed. It starts at message 103116. There is also a poll with lots of options and lots of opinions! Happy reading. Saraquel From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 22:27:50 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who do people think HBP Is? In-Reply-To: <051e01c5776f$af52c6c0$14a223cf@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: <20050622222750.85606.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131217 --- Mich Verrier wrote: > Hi All. I am wondering who people think HBP Is? JKR > has already said that it is not Harry or LV so those > 2 are out. I personally think it is Neville. > You should check the archives and search for the Subject: Prediction Contest. Many members have answered who they think the HBP is and other questions. I think the HBP is Lupin, but I'm probably wrong. > Also do you think that Harry is going to tell Ron > and Hermione about the prophecy and that he has to > either kill LV or be killed himself? JKR wrote somewhere on her website (forgot where) that HArry will tell his dearest, I suppose she means Ron and Hermione, who else is really close to him considering that Sirius is death? Juli ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From amis917 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 21:54:48 2005 From: amis917 at hotmail.com (amis917) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:54:48 -0000 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is? In-Reply-To: <051e01c5776f$af52c6c0$14a223cf@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131218 Mich Verrier said: Hi All. I am wondering who people think HBP Is? JKR has already said that it is not Harry or LV so those 2 are out. I personally think it is Neville. Also do you think that Harry is going to tell Ron and Hermione about the prophecy and that he has to either kill LV or be killed himself? Just some thoughts and I look forward to other people's responses. Amie: My first thought about the HBP, shortly after the title was released, was that it's Hagrid. He was the only character I could think of that may be able to be called a prince. It's possible his mom could have been queen. He's also a half-blood, so that rounded out my thinking. Now, months later, I'm not so sure of that thought. My second guess is that it's a character we havn't met yet. I do belive that Harry will tell his friends about the prophecy. It is possible, however, that I read that in a JKR interview somewhere..... Every day, we're one day closer to knowing for sure! :) -Amie From kcartweel at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 22:03:25 2005 From: kcartweel at yahoo.com (kcartweel) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:03:25 -0000 Subject: 1000 galleon reward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131219 > As they managed to cause the re-capture of 9 (I think) of these death > eaters it looks like Ron and Ginny might finally be in the money! > > Karen Hmm, that would be really great. I'm really interested to see who gets what money. There is Serius's estate that I am sure is worth a large amount. The capture of the DE's might lead to some money but I somehow doubt that they will actually end up getting it. ~K From anurim at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 23:04:56 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who do people think HBP Is? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050622230456.67556.qmail@web32607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131220 --- jlv230 wrote: > I feel the half blood prince is highly unlikely to > be Neville, as he > is not Half-Blood. There is a currently lot of > support (as far as I > can tell) for the HBP being a historical figure who > will not actually > be part of the *main* plot of the book. This is > supported by the fact > that the Prince plotline was cut from CoS, but there > are so many > possibilities... I just can't wait for the book. Since the subject broke again, I will add a few more or less related thoughts I had today. It might be that they were brought up already (perhaps even by myself - I tend to think in circles and don't really keep track of what I write and what not). In PS Hagrid tells Harry that Voldemort feared Dumbledore so much that he wouldn't dare to attack Hogwarts - well, not now, anyway. It makes sense to read this as meaning that Voldemort did attack the school, under a different headmaster. The only possibility is that this attack brought down Armando Dippet, which is why Dumbledore quit the Transfiguration chair for Minerva well after the school had started (in December, thirty-nine years before OotP). We know that the an important element in the HBP is something Harry found out in CoS. Could it be that this relates to Dumbledore being a Transfiguration teacher? Could it mean that Fawkes is the HBP? I haven't seen this theory anywhere, although I'm sure it has been mentioned, as everything has; but if we think back of the CoS, which element of the story was important enough to deserve a place in the title? Either something connected to Salazar, but this is not likely because we know that Voldemort, the last heir of Slytherin, is not the HBP, or, even more poignant, Fawkes himself. Any thoughts? Mira __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 22:11:41 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1000 galleon reward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050622221141.78797.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131221 Karen wrote: "The poster 'By Order of the Minestry of Magic' offered a thousand galleon reward to any witch or wizard with information leading to the re-capture of any of the convicts pictured". As they managed to cause the re-capture of 9 (I think) of these death eaters it looks like Ron and Ginny might finally be in the money! Juli: That'd be nice, but I think the money should be split more ways for there were a lot of people there: Harry, Ron, Ginny, Luna, Neville, Sirius, Remus, Kingley, Tonks, Moody, and Dumbledore. So that's 9.000 G for 11 people, so each should receive 818 G. Not bad, and if Sirius doesn't count (since he's dead, and a fugitive), then 900 for each!!! 1.800 for the Weasleys, I'd love that! Just like Harry said in PoA "no one else deserves it more than the Weasleys" (from memory, sorry). If the new MoM is smarter than Fudge (which I don't think is very difficult), then he/she ought to give all the participants of the battle at the DoM. I wonder what Harry would do with the money, probably give it to the Weasleys, or just keep it. Juli ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From sapphire_sweetie94 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 22:18:07 2005 From: sapphire_sweetie94 at yahoo.com (sapphire_sweetie94) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:18:07 -0000 Subject: Will Ginny be a prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131222 > Jim Ferer: > There's steel in that girl's spine, and we'll see a lot more of > it before this is over. > > Amie: > I totally agree! As I reread all of the books, I come to like > Ginny even more. I think she has something really special about > her. I'm pretty sure she'll be made a prefect. I love Ginny too. Those around her shouldn't underestimate the influence that Fred and George have had on her though; I don't know if she will be a prefect, but I invision the legacy of Fred and George will live on in Ginny. "sapphire_sweetie94" From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 23:38:06 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050622233806.7000.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131223 >Julie: > I've read everywhere that people think that Remus and > Sirius are (were) a couple, I've re-read all the books > looking for hints at this, but I have found none. Am I > missing something, or is this just fanfic? To me both > of them are straight, they are best friends, sure, but > does it mean they're lovers? I think if Sirius and Remus had been lovers, then Sirius wouldn't have felt so totally bummed out. He would have had something, a relationship, to hang onto. So I don't think there was anything sexual or romantic between them. Magda ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 00:19:22 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:19:22 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar (Nigellus & Connecting 4 houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131224 > > Tonks: > > You are overlooking another posibility. Maybe, they were all > *Religious*. That is a noun. Women Religious (members of a religious > order) were often of Noble birth and would have been equal with the men. > > Tonks_op KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I didn't think of that... From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 00:25:42 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:25:42 -0000 Subject: Harry the Slytherin, Silly thoughs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131225 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lliannanshe" wrote: > > Sherry now: > > > > Actually, we don't know that. The sorting hat didn't say anything > either > > way, till Harry said, "not Slytherin." Then the hat began to > question him > > about it. Harry assumes that the hat would have put him there, if > he hadn't > > asked not to be, but I wonder if it really would have. > ...Snip... > > COS pg 206 US.ED. > "Bee in your bonnet, Harry Potter?" > "You've been wondering whether I put you in the right house," > "Yes...you were particularly difficult to place. But I stand by what > I said before"..."you would have done well in Slytherin-" > > Harry takes off the hat and does not let the sorting hat finish his > statement. Like Sherry said Harry thought "not Slytherin" then the > sorting hat questioned Harry about his choice. We may never know > where the sorting hat would have placed Harry. > > LliannanShe KarentheUnicorn's Reply: meh...I guess I'm wrong again, I since another pattern here lately, I guess I need to go back and read the books again, feels stupid...crawls away, I guess my humor was not valued or valid, since, I made a mistake, hides in corner. KarentheUnicorn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 00:54:41 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:54:41 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131226 > >>Alla earlier : > > >I don't think that Slytherins' bad reputation is purely in the eye > of the beholder. I also think that whoever will be the good > Slytherin or Slytherins to emerge will reject the ideology of their > house.< > > Betsy Hp: > If that happens, then IMO, we're not actually getting a > good "Slytherin", we're just getting a good guy. Which is boring to > my mind. "Oh Harry, you're so right, and my house is so wrong! > Please can I be your friend?" What will Harry have learned? > Nothing about Slytherin. He won't be making use of Slytherin > Strengths and will therefore not be making use of the entire > Strength of Hogwarts. IMO, anyway. Alla: Well, I definitely disagree then. No, actually, I should have Clarified - this person (hypothetical good Slytherin) should reject Slytherin's "purebloodism" and absolutely hold on to Slytherin strengths, but the problem is that so far to me - the "purebloodism" , NOT Slytherins's strengths is what defines Slytherin House. Since my money is on Theodore Nott being one of the good Slytherins, I find it very telling that JKR called him on his website "clever loner who does not feel a need to join gangs" (paraphrase) I think that Theo will decide for himself that ambition does not have to go hand in hand with thought that only purebloods are entitled to the best things in society. As you probably know, I share POV that in "potterverse" ideological lines are drawn quite clearly and the site of "purebloods are better than anybody else" is not the one to be on, IMO. Therefore I don't see anything wrong in admitting by "good Slytherins" that their thinking is flawed on so many levels. So, yes, I do think that Slytherin House at the end will be the one to change the most or there will be no more houses in Hogwarts at all. I can see this one even better. > >>Alla earlier: > >We HEAR Slytherins' ideology from Draco's mouth and the gist of it > is that "Muggleborns are inferior to purebloods". That is an > objective statement, which could be judged quite independently from > Harry's POV.< > > > Betsy Hp: > Well, Draco certainly shares the *Malfoy* ideology to anyone who > will listen. (Usually with a "my father says" thrown in for good > measure.) And I agree that this ideology is wrong. It's what led > his father to the Death Eaters (and kept him there) and it's an > ideology that Draco will have to reject if he's to become the "good > Slytherin". > > But I disagree that this is the *Slytherin* ideology. For one, we > never hear Snape (or Phineas Nigellus for that matter) say similar > things. For another we know of at least one Slytherin who rejected > the ideology enough to *marry* a muggle-born. I think *Harry* > thinks it's the Slytherin ideology. But that's because he's had a > biased view of the house for years now. It's a bias I think he > needs to get over. Alla: I unfortunately cannot find my earlier posts on that issue, so I will just summarize. The reason why I think that "purebloodism" IS Slytherin's house ideology is because we have not seen ANY Slytherin yet ( in the younger generation at least) who does not share such ideology. Now, you may argue that we have not seen any Slytherins but Draco and his cronies sharing this ideology either, but is the absence of the evidence equals evidence to the contrary? I am not so sure. Since JKR does not have book space to develop every secondary character, I create an impression of Slytherin House based on representatives of Slytherin house I read about so far and if you don't know yet, they REALLY don't appeal to me that much. :-) I mean, I absolutely think that JKR may not have introduced the good Slytherin yet on purpose and may pull the rug later, but I don't see any sign that "purebloodism" does not belong in Slytherin House. Snape, well, again, I sure hope that he rejected this view when he betrayed Voldemort, but I submit that we have no evidence that he did. He could have betrayed Voldemort for purely personal reasons and it does not mean that he had to stop thinking that "purebloods are better than anybody else" to do so. And we have at least a possibility that Snape still thinks that way Password to Slytherin Dorms was "pureblood" after all. It may not mean anything, since we don't even know who comes up with passwords, but I think the passwords have to be acceptable to the students, no? > >>Alla earlier : > >Now, Ron, IMO does not just dislike the Slytherins. He dislikes the > ideology of those who proclaims that Muggleborns witches and Wizards > are second class citizens. > Betsy Hp: > Here's where I disagree most strongly. Ron admits, in CoS, that he > had no idea that Salazar Slytherin had only wanted to teach pure- > bloods. So his dislike of the house had *nothing* to do with blood > ideology. His brothers hissed at first years who were newly sorted > into the house (a little young to be pure-blood ideologues, I think) > so I think the sports analogy is apt. The Weasleys don't like > Slytherin *because* they're Slytherin. Any logical reasons for the > dislike are just icing on the cake for them. Alla: This quote is at the very least opened to interpretation, IMO " I always knew Salazar Slytherin was a twisted old loony", Ron told Harry and Hermione as they fought their way through the terming corridors at the end of the lesson to drop off their bags before dinner. But I never knew he started all this pure blood stuff. I wouldn't be in his house if you paid me. Honestly, if Sorting Hat tried to put me in Slytherin, I'd've got the train straight back home" - Cos, p.152, paperback. Ron clearly has not a good opinion of Salasar and the fact that he did not know that he started "pureblood stuff" does not mean that Ron did not know what Slytherin house stands for.\ As to twins hissing, yes, that was not nice, but I submit that was indeed icing on the cake and underneath of that is the idea that any Slytherin is potential hater of Muggleborns,which surely is not good. As to signing up eleven years old as potential racists and DE, well, yes, it bothers me too. > Betsy Hp: > Out of curiosity, if you *had* to judge Gryffindor based soley on > Peter Pettigrew and the current actions of Percy Weasley, what view > would you have of Gryffindor house? Not a positive one I'd wager. Alla: Erm , yes, of course, not a positive one. But we do have many good Gryffindors to act as counterparts to Peter and even though I am not a Percy's defender, I submit that he is not quite on the evil side yet. Swimsalone: I agree wholeheartedly with you, Alla, in that I > would enjoy seeing Slytherin counterparts to Malfoy, Crabbe, and > Goyle who might be loyal to their house, yet oppose the pure-blood > doctrine and who have no love for Voldemort. > > I think it would be interesting if the new "romantic interest" for > Harry in HBP were, in fact, a girl from Slytherin...one whom he would > find himself attracted to despite his feelings for her house (and its > head). Alla: Hee, it is nice to hear the note of agreement. I am not sure that JKR will go for Harry's romantic interest being in Slytherin though (although I could be wrong of course), unless she decides to go for secondary character. I am more and more inclined to think that Harry's eventual romantic interest will have red hair and many brothers. :-) Now, if indeed JKR were to play out the redemption of Draco Malfoy ( shudders), then I would think that having a romantic interest in the other house would be a nice hint for such redemption. Just my opinion, Alla From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 01:19:35 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:19:35 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131227 Hickengruendler: I think you meant my post. But that's not really what I said. I said that choice wasn't the only reason why the students are sorted into a particular house, as we can see with Harry, since Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff never seemed to be an alternative. But nonetheless choice does play a part, IMO, and the students, who went to Slytherin, obviously went there despite it's bad reputation and it's bad history. They do not seem to care enough about this to reject the house, and what Harry has to learn, IMO, is, that that doesn't make them bad people. Geoff: Perhaps I, in turn, did not make myself clear. I was thinking of pupils, like Harry, who are coming from a Muggle background and, for whom, Slytherin membership carries no baggage. After all, the only reason Harry knows anything about it is what Ron has told him during their conversation on the journey. He could easily have reached the school ignorant of the house's reputation and been sorted into it. Hickengruendler: You said that Harry questioned the Sorting Hat. But IMO he did not. He went there thinking "Not Slytherin", and the Sorting Hat than answered to his thoughts. I don't think he was the only student, who had heared about Slytherin's bad reputation and went to the Hat, thinking, "I hope I'm not a Slytherin". Geoff: I think there is a difference between "Not Slytherin" and "I hope I'm not in Slytherin". The former seems more decisive. I still think that Harry did question the Hat. The Hat seems to think so.... 'Harry gripped the edges of the stool and thought,"Not Slytherin, not Slytherin." "Not Slytherin, eh?" said the small voice. "Are you sure? You could be great, you know, it's all here in your head and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that - no? Well, if you're sure - better be GRYFFINDOR!"' (PS "The Sorting Hat" pp.90-91 UK edition) Doesn't sound lke teasing to me..... The Barmaid now: I do not think the Sorting Hat is teasing Harry, but I also do not think Harry is "questioning" The Hat. In fact, I think The Hat is questioning Harry. I read this as a sort of a test, The Hat is tempting Harry. "Are you sure you do not want Slytherin -- are you not tempted at all by the drive to prove yourself above all else." And of course right at that moment that was a temptation for Harry, proving himself in this new world. The thing about Harry's sorting that I have always felt was very important is that it is he, not The Hat, who first brings up Slytherin. Therefore we have no way of knowing if The Hat would have brought it up on its own. I tend to think that The Hat's comments have everything to do with what It sees as Harry's internal struggle and perhaps nothing to do with where The Hat, independently of what Harry is saying (thinking), would have placed him. I am inclined to believe that sorting over all is more about what the student desires, what their goals and dreams are, and less about innate abilities or fixed character traits. --The Barmaid, who is very much looking forward to what The Sorting Hat has to say in HBP! From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 23 01:23:26 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:23:26 -0400 Subject: Apparating into Hogwarts Message-ID: <42BA0F0E.2070903@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131228 I think I just fanwanked something about the problem of the floo network, apparating into Hogwarts, etc. We know that the protection on the school is in the form of *spells*. We don't know, as far as I can recall, if these spells were cast by DD or if they were pre-existant. Possibly, they're pre-existant, but their strength is supported and determined by the strength of the current headmaster, who maintains the integrity of the protective spells. We also know that DD can be quite tricky with his protective spells; and we know that magic has an awful lot to do with *intent*. I thought way back to the Philosopher's Stone, and the Mirror of Erised. Only one who wanted to find the stone -- find it, but not use it -- could get it out of the mirror. "One of my more brilliant ideas", says DD. If this sort of intent-based spell could prevent Voldemort himself from getting a stone, why could the same sort of thing not protect Hogwarts from the bad guys? A bad guy trying to apparate into Hogwarts would find himself like Quirrel in front of the mirror... tantalizingly close to almost being there, but just not able to do it. The spell would sense their intent, and thwart them. Similarly with the floo network -- only one who wanted to find a Hogwarts fireplace -- find it, but not attack through it -- could use it. I think it really could be a matter of the baddies not being able to FIND the place (it is unplottable, after all -- again a related magick?) Perhaps the same is true for Portkeys. Maybe anyone can portkey OUT of Hogwarts, but only those with good 'intent' can portkey in. So Harry was able to get back in at the end of GOF... we know that Voldey *intended* to use the Portkey to get back to Hogwarts after killing Harry, but maybe, if I'm guessing right... it wouldn't have worked anyway. If anyone can use a portkey to get into Hogwarts, you think those bad guys would have done it long ago! Now those of you who are observant should be saying "that's all quite brilliant, Heather, we bow to your intellectual prowess... but you're forgetting one thing. Canon says that NOBODY can apparate into Hogwarts, not just the baddies". Well I haven't forgotten. What I think might be possible, is that there's a bit of a catch with the apparation, unlike the portkey or the floo network. See, the portkey, in general, is pretty much infallible. It's 'no-brainer' transportation. You grab it, it takes you. Similarly, the only 'risk' with the floo network is ending up in the wrong grate. There's no actual danger. With apparation, though, there is training required, a certain level of maturity and magical development, and a great risk of doing it wrong... ending up in totally the wrong place or, even worse, splinching yourself. So... I would guess that the protective layer around Hogwarts is possible to get through with good intent, but it's difficult. With portkeys and the floo network, the object or network itself works through the difficult part, you're just along for the ride. But with apparation, you yourself have to get through the difficult part. And even if your intent is noble, your risk is very, very high. So they put the story out that no-one can apparate into Hogwarts, period. Baddies might try it, and will quickly discover it's true, since their negative intent totally blocks them. Good people, being good, believe the story and don't try it. Or perhaps a few try it just for kicks, are unprepared for the difficulty, splinch themselves, which reinforces the story and no-one tries it again. I would not be at all surprised if *very* powerful witches and wizards, who know the ins and outs of the protective spell and who have good intent, can apparate into Hogwarts. But they wouldn't make this a well-known fact... heather the buzzard From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 01:51:51 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:51:51 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar (Nigellus & Connecting 4 houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131229 KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I have a question, we've got two Men...and we've got..two women....ok..over 1,000 years ago, so, who exactly was married?? I don't recall women and men exactly being buddies back in those days, more along the lines of, wife and mother, and generally taht was it....Unless the wizard community, even 1,000 years ago already had women's equality back then?? Well, I guess it does make a difference when, the woman can wip out her wand and zap you to kingdom come, but, still, it just seems odd, two of each, and maybe JKR is not too worried about addding any info about that to the story. I'll vote for Rowena Ravenclaw was Salizar's Slytherin's main sqeeze, and Helga Hufflepuf is Godrick's Griffendor's girl....or..maybe its the other way around...meh...or it could be...um..well...nevermind..LOL. Sheash, I hope I spelled their names right..don't kill me if I didn't. KarentheUnicorn Now The Barmaid: Men and women have lived in various states of equality and inequality at various times and places throughout human history. Certainly the WW that Harry is experiencing seems to have somewhat greater gender equality than much of the Muggle world of the same time. I think one of the keys to knowing how the founders related on gender lines would be to have a clear understanding of when the WW pulled away from the Muggle world. It is very possible, maybe even likely, that the split occurred before the overt oppression of women was so common in Britain. If so, it would not necessarily be that odd for these four to be friends whether they were coupled or not. (And of course it is always possible that they were coupled along same sex lines as well.) Overall it seems to me that JKR is creating a world where gender is not really an issue as it relates to what sort of jobs one can do or how successful or powerful an individual can become. Having gender balance in the founders goes a long way in building this idea. This is one of the things that appealed to me about the books from the start. -- The Barmaid From hackett1171 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 23:35:25 2005 From: hackett1171 at yahoo.com (kim hagen) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1000 galleon reward In-Reply-To: <20050622221141.78797.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050622233525.74742.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131230 Karen wrote: "The poster 'By Order of the Minestry of Magic' offered a thousand galleon reward to any witch or wizard with information leading to the re-capture of any of the convicts pictured". As they managed to cause the re-capture of 9 (I think) of these death eaters it looks like Ron and Ginny might finally be in the money! Juli: 1.800 for the Weasleys, I'd love that! Just like Harry said in PoA "no one else deserves it more than the Weasleys" (from memory, sorry). If the new MoM is smarter than Fudge (which I don't think is very difficult), then he/she ought to give all the participants of the battle at the DoM. I wonder what Harry would do with the money, probably give it to the Weasleys, or just keep it. Kim: Great thoughts about the money Juli. IMO, Harry would put it towards either the DA, or THE ORDER itself. I don't think that he would keep it for himself, putting it to use for the relentless battle against YKW would be my guess. I would be thrilled for the Weasleys to get that money, but let's hope Percy doesn't come back for the greedy reasons. He was very excited to get his winnings from Penelope after the bet on the Quidditch match. Kim Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 23 02:24:51 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:24:51 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131231 Phoenixgod wrote: > I don't truly understand where this idea that Harry is being > disrespectful comes from. Other than peaking into his pensieve, Harry > is almost always perfectly respectfuly to Snape--at least by the > standards I use in my own classroom. Potioncat: I "upthreaded" for a number of posts, and unless you're referring to a post that somehow is out of thread, I don't see what you're talking about. At least from my point of view, I'm only discussing the use of "sir". Using "sir' or "ma'am" is a cultural thing, and to those who aren't used to it, it seems uncomfortable or incredibly formal. But as I said in another post, it can be as comfortable and as expected as "please and thank you". In the context of "schoolboy story" it seems very appropriate. And it's all right that other teachers don't require the "sir". Phoenixgod: Yes, Draco uses Sir all the > time. He also happens to be a obsequious booklicker of the highest > caliber. Young Malfoy is hardly the barometer I would use to measure > appropriate levels of student/teacher respect. Potioncat: Nor would I. But the point I was making was that Draco uses "sir" a lot when talking to Snape. He used it when he was brown-nosing and he used it under stress when Montague had been found. And for those 2 conversations my point was that it appears Snape expects "sir" from all his students, or else Draco wouldn't be using it. Draco managed to be rude, although just barely, while calling Lupin "Professor". For some reason I can't find the conversation between Draco and Flitwick to see if he uses "sir" with him. Phoenixgod: Why care what he calls Snape when Snape > isn't around? Potioncat: But that's what DD and Molly do, isn't it? They correct him. If they hear him say "Snape" they add the "Professor". Must be a reason for that. The kids refer to McGonagall all the time. I don't think they've done it in front of another adult. And I'm sure if they did, they would be corrected. Phoenixgod: > Honestly, you guys make it sound like Harry is calling him a &*@##$ in > the middle of the classroom. He's not. Potioncat: Again, unless you're referring to another post that I don't see in this thread, (using the upthread button) I don't get it. No one has suggested that. Phoenixgod: > I agree that everyone else corrects Harry as a form of good manners, > but I think Snape himself has a far more petty reason for insisting on > the sirs. Potioncat: Oh, well, that may well be his motive, but it's still his due. Then again, it may be as someone else suggested, he's using it to re- direct Harry's attention. From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 02:55:56 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:55:56 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar (Ye Purebloods, Merlin was What!?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131232 > > > Now The Barmaid : > Overall it seems to me that JKR is creating a world where gender is > not really an issue as it relates to what sort of jobs one can do or > how successful or powerful an individual can become. Having gender > balance in the founders goes a long way in building this idea. This > is one of the things that appealed to me about the books from the > start. > > -- The Barmaid KarentheUnicorn's Reply: So, since I've been so charged lately, with being mistaken, I suppose I should clarify more and justify my silly thoughs, since, some of them were just fun comments, or maybe I should just shut up...meh..I go for clarify I think, We have in the story such a big idea of family involved in the book, and in the wizarding world that JKR is describing. I don't see monks or nuns here, in this wizarding community I have read about so far, these people are having kids, and getting married, and by the amount of students that are showing up at Hogwarts. I don't see them as, holy obstainers...meh..maybe that went to the religious idea I replied to earlier in this thread, so, take that as it is, just an offhand comment. I don't think these ideals all of a sudden came up now that Harry is in school in the 90's. I imagine, perhaps as someone said, maybe the original founders were, very religeous, or something to that affect, so sqashing my notion of the founders being involved with each other, I would still wager though, they may have though about being married to each other, you can't get two men and two women together without that though never occuring, but, maybe they were workaholics...building a castle is a lot of work I imagine, even for wizards. Yes, I can hear some of you argue that, you can indeed get two men and women in a room and they will not think of getting married, and this is a childrens book, but I wager, considering what I know, if they were adults, that at least though it once. Perhaps that could have been why they seperated from the muggle community, because they wanted to not worry about the women/man issue. If that is so, I say, you go girls, Rowena and Helga sure trained Godrick and Salizar, of course, one wonders how old they were when they founded Hogwarts, I don't know if there is any canon to give there ages..so...I'll digress from that. But, I also think, we are assuming something here, Was Hogwarts the origination of the Wizarding World, Seperate from the Muggle World, or was the Wizarding World, already seperated from the Muggle world? I believe this is a what came first, the chicken or the egg question. It might be considered that perhaps the teachers are the one's who, do not have a family life, because being a teacher of magical children is a full time job, but I also remember that JKR made a comment about Professors being married, I suppose their is more to come of that. The idea of being Pureblood, the big ideas of having kids continue the pureblood ideals, and the pureblood line, don't seem like very non gender related topic to me. It is harkening back to the days when women were sold to the highest bidder, and, if these pureblood ideals still exist, then I would say in the wizarding world it would still have to go on to some extent, so, the book's don't seem to show, at least to me, that they the wold JKR had created is minus in the normal muggle gender bias. Families who are pureblood and also friends, would have to assure their children married, and had children who were pureblood. That may be a mutual thing between the two who are going to marry, and it may just be a time honored tradition in the Slytherin house, but, it is also being brought up in a very non gender friendly way, if you ask me. A woman would be forced to accept her family's choice, purely based on the bloodline and nothing else. The books also overflows with, family, Mother, Father, Child....and those without a mother and father. The weasley's are a somewhat traditional family, mother says home, dad works, they have a bunch of kids. The Malfoy's also purebloods, seem to have the same system, father seems to be in charge from what we have seen so far. Well, one might argue the point with the Weasley's as to who is in charge, but by Arthur working, he is the breadwinner, and theirfor head of house...I suppose one can argue that fact with me..but anyway. The Weasley's also are pureblood, so, not all pureblood's are in slytherin, Now I know, some of you are going to correct me, probably with canon, someone said..yes I know, that being a pureblood is a farce, no real wizard anymore is actually a pureblood. To get right down to it, no wizard anywhere, has ever actually been pureblood. If I remember correctly, the story based Merlin was born of a nun seduced by an evil spirit, though, I very seriously doubt JKR is putting that in her childrens book, though his name is used quite a lot, and that is just the facts of the story Merlin, again, I didn't make it up. The roles to me seem very traditional, you might even take some of the teachers as example. Dumbledore is in charge, McGonagall is second to him at Hogwarts, again, keeping the traditional role of Male in charge, female as the backup. OK, that might be taking it a bit too far, but it is how the school is run, I didn't make it that way. Again, Head of Houses, Snape/male, Flitwick/male, McGonagal/female, Sprout/female, ok, no, I'm not saying there hooked up! (laughs) I'm saying, you again, have an balance, two of each. I don't know if it was always this way, but, it is what we are most aware of as far as storyline goes. I don't think there is going to be a flood in the books and everyone is going to walk on the ark two by two, its just a noticable and very real thing I see in the books. The woman have their role, and the men also have theirs, is that gender bias, or whatever someone might say about it or my opinon....I don't know really. Are the books lacking in gender related topics,and has JKR made a world where women and men are exactly the same, I don't think so, of course, one can disagree with me on that, but, I see that, their is a very real role that the men and women play in this story....generally its just the fact of life, the story is reflecting reality, again, I didn't make the laws of nature so don't blame me for it, or for thinking it. Though, you can blame me for my twisted since of humor, I still say Salizar pined after Rowena, dang it! How boring is it if they were all 200 years old...and never even looked at each other once..that seems boring...I say they had a few arguments, and not just over what kids to let into school. I'll bet Rowena told Salizar he's not putting his stinking pet basalisk in the castle, she told him better put the dang thing as far away from her as possible or she is going to chop out its eyes and....ok..again, my imagination is running away with me again. "But Row...hes really a nice sort of snake." "I told you, if you bring that thing into the castle, I'll not talk to you for a week!" Ok, I'll stop now, I know my humor is bad. KarentheUnicorn From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 23 03:14:23 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:14:23 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131233 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > >>Alla earlier : > > > > >I don't think that Slytherins' bad reputation is purely in the > eye > > of the beholder. I also think that whoever will be the good > > Slytherin or Slytherins to emerge will reject the ideology of > their > > house.< Potioncat: I think it will all depend on JKR's intent. Is it to show that ambition, cunning and racism are each bad? If so, there won't be a good Slytherin. Except for Snape and Nigellus, we haven't seen any "good" Slytherins...and those two are suspect. But I agree with other posters, while the Sorting Hat says Purebloods are selected for Slytherin, it doesn't say the individuals have to be racist. (OK, I know the argument comes up that this isn't two different races, but for brevity, let's call it racism.) So a Pureblood who is cunning and ambitious would go to Slytherin. A Pureblood was not brave, clever or loyal would go to Slytherin. A cunning, ambitious Muggle-born or Half-blood would go to Hufflepuff. But you could be an ambitious, cunning Pureblood who has absolutely no delusions of superiority based on blood and end up in Slytherin. At least, that's the way I read the Sorting Hat. JKR may not agree and it is afterall, her toy. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Jun 23 03:28:47 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:28:47 -0000 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131234 --- "amis917" wrote: > Mich Verrier said: > Hi All. I am wondering who people think HBP Is? > Also do you think that Harry is going to tell Ron and Hermione > about the prophecy and that he has to either kill LV or be killed > himself? > Amie: > My first thought about the HBP, shortly after the title was released, was that it's Hagrid. He was the only character I could think of that may be able to be called a prince. Which group has a Monarchy to include Princes let alone a HBP? English Muggles, but not Wizards. So Prince Charles love-child with a witch? Giants? - then Hagrid or Gwramp Bulgarian Wizards? Or my favourite suggested new character ... the wizard from a tropical country that Sirius Black stayed with after escaping and sent Harry a tropical bird instead of an owl. After Sirius died in the last Book, this may be an appropriate time from that person's appearance. From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 23 03:29:35 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Americanization of Text was: Audio Versions of the Books In-Reply-To: <1a273840050622012778c9a121@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050623032935.29923.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131235 Dina Lerret expresses quite a few people's opinion on Americanization of the text: As an American, I'm not bothered by either the British or the Americanization--I'm not some strict purist. {g} I think, if you can *really* appreciate a work in one format and have the ability to expand upon this interest (comprehension is key), purity is irrelevant. For example, I can appreciate Shakespeare in its original format but I also can enjoy the 'modernization' of it as well. ******************** The issue for me is that when I pick up a book I want the actual book written. If it has been abridged or adapted for use in any way I want that stated clearly on the edition. I don't think that was the case with PS/SS. Correct me if I am wrong, but if it does state in the book that the book has been edited for American language usage then it is not clear. Theotokos Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Thu Jun 23 03:58:24 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:58:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure References: Message-ID: <006901c577a7$d0f3a780$e858aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131236 Phoenixgod: > I agree that everyone else corrects Harry as a form of good manners, > but I think Snape himself has a far more petty reason for insisting on > the sirs. Like every other petty person who has ever gotten an ounce > of authority, Snape likes to remind people of his position in order to > make himself feel important. To reassure himself that he isn't the > fifteen year old being picked on by the mean boys anymore. I've seen > it before in other teachers who get caught up in exerting their > authority for no other reason other than they can. And I maintain that Snape is making these corrections deliberately, to control the conversation, for reasons that have nothing to do with Harry personally and everything to do with the fact that Voldemort has a window into Harry's mind. I posted on this at the beginning of this thread, and reiterate here (because individual emails don't show post numbers and I can't put in a link): I note that Snape derails Harry's inquiries right when it seems Harry might learn something concrete about what "our side" knows or believes. I doubt this is by accident. Snape is using a mechanism that is already well-established between the two of them, to control the information flow to Harry. Why? Because I believe Snape is very, very aware that there may be a third party to the conversation. Voldemort, as Snape tells Harry, is now aware of the connection, and it may not be certain how "clear" the channel is or how much Voldemort is tapping it. In addition, depending on what Snape's connection with Voldemort is now, there could be two possible avenues for Voldemort to "hear": he could access Harry's knowledge and memories (the channel we know), or he may be able to extract this information from Snape. To explain the latter: as I've postulated before, I believe Snape has been very careful over the years to keep his memories and emotional associations as "sortable" as possible. For example, I believe the reason Snape never eats at Grimmauld Place is because he does not want to have to keep track of stray memories of being there when he's practicing Occlumency with hostile parties. I believe one reason Snape is consistently horrible to Harry is that this behavior creates consistent memories and associations that Snape has established ways of handling during Occlumency. So--Snape redirects the conversations with Harry at key points, using an old familiar mechanism, to (a) keep Harry from becoming excited about an answer, as the excitement may attract Voldemort's attention "inside" Harry, and therefore basically telling Voldemort much about what we know of his movements and motives; and (b) to keep the conversation with Harry on a familiar, standard, level of interaction to avoid difficulties with Snape's own Occlumency later. ~Amanda From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Jun 23 04:33:32 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:33:32 -0000 Subject: Calling All Detectives/ Re: New Droobles Anagram? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131237 > > > Dig D.L. bones below Urg's tomb > > > D.L. being short for Dark Lord, and Urg being a goblin, > > > perhaps Urg the Unclean mentioned in GoF (p618 US). > > smilingator4915: > > In any event, I came up with "Nobles, dig below Urg's tomb". > "D.E. Goblins Below Urgs Tomb " > > Clearly, Alice was investigating Voldie's recruiting and training > of goblins in the secret passages below the (Hogwart's?) graveyard... > > -Algnash In POA Chap 5, Hermoine says: "But Hogsmeade's a very interesting place, isn't it?" Hermione pressed on eagerly. "In Sites of Historical Sorcery it says the inn was the headquarters for the 1612 goblin rebellion, ..." There is no reason for a Goblin killed 400 years ago to be in Hogwarts, but Hogsmeade, Yes! From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Jun 23 04:47:15 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:47:15 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Phoenixgod wrote: > > I don't truly understand where this idea that Harry is being > > disrespectful comes from. Other than peaking into his pensieve, > Harry > > is almost always perfectly respectfuly to Snape--at least by the > > standards I use in my own classroom. > > Potioncat: > I "upthreaded" for a number of posts, and unless you're referring to > a post that somehow is out of thread, I don't see what you're talking > about. At least from my point of view, I'm only discussing the use > of "sir". I was refering to a few of the other posters who seemed (at least to me) to be saying that Harry wasn't being respectful to Snape because he wasn't throwing a sir in every four words. In my opinion Harry has given Snape plenty of respect within the bounds of Snape's job even though he he does not use sir all the time. I don't know anything about school boy stories, I've never read any of them, but by real world standards, Harry has acted within the bounds of respectfulness (aside from the pensive incident), that I would hold my own students to. As far as I am concerened, anything else would just be stroking Snape's ego. But I've never been one to believe much in formality or giving respect to someone who hasn't actually earned any, so I'm coming from a weird point of view :) phoenixgod2000 From tmar78 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 05:10:59 2005 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1000 Galleon Reward In-Reply-To: <1119491534.2732.23802.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050623051059.70616.qmail@web33115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131239 Regarding the 1000 Galleon Reward offered for the capture of any of the escaped DEs, I had a thought. JKR said that Harry will leave Privet Drive early in the summer for a "pleasant" reason. What if its to collect the reward money? Thoughts anyone? Tyler __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 07:16:19 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:16:19 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131240 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > Whilst reading the books, I've come across a few "one liners" which > have always puzzled me - as in, "why put in that detail?" Some of > them may be real clues and others false trails, but I thought it might > be interesting to collect together all the as yet unexplained oddities > in one cauldron and cook up a potion. Or alternatively, dump all our > thoughts into one Pensieve and see if a pattern emerges. > So, tell me some really interesting ones I've completely failed to > notice! > > Saraquel First off great topic for before book 6. On re-listening to the audio version for PS I picked up on this line that has been eating away at me for the last could weeks. In the beginning of Chapter one when describing the Dursleys there is a line thrown in "None of them noticed a Tawny Owl flutter past the window". He is the question I have. Who is that owl going to see? I can't see it being Miss Figg, as since Harry had just been attacked I can't see her being in place yet. If it was Miss Figg then either that was pretty quick or DD must have seen this coming to have her in place already. It can't be to Minerva McGonagall as the comments about her getting to Privet drive are after the fact. That leaves Petunia or someone else since Vernon Dursley leave shortly after this. As Petunia seems to appear to not understand what Vernon is talking about after he gets home from work I would figure it is not to her. But what if it was and tells her something that Vernon doesn't know. Maybe it was from the MoM telling her, her sister died or from DD telling her Harry was coming so he knew she would agree to take him in before dumping him on the doorstep. Brent From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 09:26:04 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:26:04 -0000 Subject: House Elf question? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131241 Who or what cleans the student clothing if the elves can't even touch it without being freed? Hermione put elf hats and socks out and they would not even clean the common room anymore so I can't see them going to get them to be cleaned. It is never mentioned that Harry or anyone else cleans them while at school that I remember. Mrs. Weasley cleans them a couple times but not while at school. They don't go home for months. Unless they use spells to clean them. But what about the younger students like the 1st years. Unless that is a prefects job. From buffyeton at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 09:53:17 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:53:17 -0000 Subject: Voldemort: Born or Made Evil? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131242 Do you think Lord Voldemort was born so terribly evil, or was he made that way by his circumstances? Tamara From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 23 10:43:04 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:43:04 -0000 Subject: House Elf question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131243 > Brent said: > Who or what cleans the student clothing if the elves can't even touch > it without being freed? JLV: Actually, I'm sure they can touch *other people's* clothes, particularly if they're being worn. Anyway, the house elves could probably use their 'special brand of magic' to clean clothes, towels and sheets which doesn't involve actually picking up any clothes. > Brent: > Hermione put elf hats and socks out and they > would not even clean the common room anymore so I can't see them going > to get them to be cleaned. JLV: Hermione didn't leave the hats out to be cleaned, she (1) disguised them as rubbish to trick the elves and (2) intended to give the clothes to the elves to free them. I think that as the elves are a proud specie, they were mortally affronted by Hermione's behaviour and perhasp even refused to clean them up on principle. It doesn't follow that they can't touch clothes. It may be that Hermione was mistaken in thinking that the hats would free the elves (in fact I wouldn't be surprised if she was - she's not showing great judgment here). > Brent: >It is never mentioned that Harry or anyone > else cleans them while at school that I remember. JLV: I'm guessing it's one of those many things that happen but aren't mentioned. In my (often inaccurate) recollection, Harry has only taken one bath in five years (although IIRC there is a mention of showers after Quidditch) and has *never* been to the toilet. If the house elvesclean the clothes (which I don't doubt) they would do it unnoticed by all anyway. And sometimes details are unimportant and, frankly, I don't want to hear everything... especailly about *all* the things a teenage boy may get up to when not saving the world (*shudders*). JMO, JLV xx From drliss at comcast.net Thu Jun 23 02:43:33 2005 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:43:33 -0400 Subject: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: <1119491534.2732.23802.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20050622223515.01897de0@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131244 >Madga: >I think if Sirius and Remus had been lovers, then Sirius wouldn't >have felt so totally bummed out. He would have had something, a >relationship, to hang onto. So I don't think there was anything >sexual or romantic between them. Lissa now.... I wrote a long response to the first post, but for some reason my posts don't seem to either be going through or being returned to me. Hmmm.... Anyway, I do think they were a couple, although I agree that there's nothing to point to or away from it definitively. I see it in the emotional interactions between the two of them; the way that Remus is so open to Sirius when he appears closed and polite to everyone else, and the way Sirius calms down around Remus in a way he won't for anyone else- including Harry and Dumbledore. The hug in PoA had NOTHING to do with my perception of them this way, and even as an ardent shipper I don't perceive the hug as a gesture of romantic love. But going back to the comments above, Sirius might have loved Remus, but all the love in the world wasn't going to keep Sirius from being depressed in OotP. He was a prisoner in his own house, and Remus could come and go (and did frequently, on missions for the Order). Love is great, but it's not a cure-all, and even if they had a perfect romantic relationship, it wouldn't have solved the true problems in Sirius's life. As long as Sirius was a prisoner, he was going to be miserable- and rightfully so!!!! I do firmly believe you can read it either way. Heck, Molly and Arthur are far from goopily affectionate with each other- the way Sirius and Remus are written is much the same. They come across to me as a couple that has no need to flaunt their relationship, and is quite comfortable keeping it private. (And given that Sirius can't even properly hug Harry and Remus is... well, Remus... it fits them.) So it does work, if you want to read it that way (and adds a little happiness to their lives in OotP!), or it works reading it as just friends, too. Lissa From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Jun 23 10:54:23 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:54:23 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131245 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > > > I was refering to a few of the other posters who seemed (at least to > me) to be saying that Harry wasn't being respectful to Snape because > he wasn't throwing a sir in every four words. In my opinion Harry has > given Snape plenty of respect within the bounds of Snape's job even > though he he does not use sir all the time. I don't know anything > about school boy stories, I've never read any of them, but by real > world standards, Harry has acted within the bounds of respectfulness > (aside from the pensive incident), that I would hold my own students > to. As far as I am concerened, anything else would just be stroking > Snape's ego. > > But I've never been one to believe much in formality or giving > respect to someone who hasn't actually earned any, so I'm coming from > a weird point of view :) Oh, not weird phoenixgod, I definitely agree with you. :-) Snape has not earned Harry's respect, and Harry should not give it to him, Full Stop (to quote Betsy). Regardless of what the standards of Hogwarts (a poorly run school) or the Wizarding World (a corrupt and backwards society) or the Old School (a ridiculous and abusive philosophy) are, Full Stop (to quote Betsy again). :-) Being a teacher and a adult entitles Snape to very little respect - mostly it has to be earned, Full Stop (to quote Betsy a third time, she's very quotable today). Lupinlore > > phoenixgod2000 From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 23 10:57:20 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:57:20 -0000 Subject: Voldemort: Born or Made Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > Do you think Lord Voldemort was born so terribly evil, or was he made > that way by his circumstances? > Tamara I'd say neither. Either way it seems to absolve Voldemort of blame, as if the 'victim' of circumstance or fate. It is a tricky moral minefield I'm walking into, so I am deliberately keeping this free of 'Real World' morality or explicitly religious ideas. Instead I shall dive straight into canon quote the wisest person I can think of: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Voldemort *chose* an evil path, but he could have made other choices. I am also sure he was aware of the consequences of the decisions he made, so if he get burned, he really will deserve it. The contingency is important to me. And I think Dumbledore (and JKR) will agree with me on this. Still, it's JMHO, JLV xx From srbecca at hotmail.com Thu Jun 23 04:15:25 2005 From: srbecca at hotmail.com (Rebecca Dreiling) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:15:25 +0000 Subject: Americanization of Text was: Audio Versions of the Books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131247 Dina Lerret wrote: >For example, I can appreciate Shakespeare in its original >format but I also can enjoy the 'modernization' of it as >well. And yet as an actor, one is taught to always prepare from a First Folio edition to get the true scansion and meaning of the text. You know it's funny the Canadian version is the same as the British version. Having lived in the UK,Canada and the states.. it's hard to believe that if Canadians can understand a British text, Americans can't...and yet the publishers never questioned whether Canadians would understand. I can tell you I've never heard a Canadian call desert "pudding" and I've heard no protest.. I would hate to read an American version of Great Expectations. I read books to learn about other cultures to be immersed in that world. When I was young and I first read the Brontes it was exciting to learn what a "moor" was..what "heather" is. Of course I heard that they put subtitles in the American version of Trainspotting. They didn't do that in Canada either. I'm just saying I enjoy the differences. I'm not a purist. I just think that there is something to be said for learning some new vocab. Who knows, you might just enjoy the lit world that is created in the book more. I agree that if there is to be an American version, footnotes could be used. Besides jokes/humour are funny because of the way they are phrased at times..and I when people mess with a good joke by explaining so I can get it..in case I don't know Brit slang...well, that's just not funny. "srbecca" From eighthweasley at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 04:24:42 2005 From: eighthweasley at gmail.com (The Eighth Weasley) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:24:42 -0700 Subject: 1000 galleon reward In-Reply-To: <20050622233525.74742.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050622221141.78797.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> <20050622233525.74742.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6c20bff80506222124185b0314@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131248 Karen wrote: "The poster 'By Order of the Minestry of Magic' offered a thousand galleon reward to any witch or wizard with information leading to the re-capture of any of the convicts pictured". As they managed to cause the re-capture of 9 (I think) of these death eaters it looks like Ron and Ginny might finally be in the money! Juli wrote: >>If the new MoM is smarter than Fudge (which I don't think is very difficult), then he/she ought to give all the participants of the battle at the DoM.<< Kim wrote: >> Harry would put it towards either the DA, or THE ORDER itself. I don't think that he would keep it for himself, putting it to use for the relentless battle against YKW would be my guess. << -- Eighth writes (dipping her first toe into the discussions): So if it's nine Death Eaters, that's 9,000 galleons, which then divided by six would be 1500 per DA member. That's really a LOT of money, isn't it? More than Harry's Triwizard earnings. Although the Order members who helped would get some, too... how many people were there? A few dozen. And it was Dumbledore, in the end, who actually captured them, wasn't it? -- Kim also wrote: >>I would be thrilled for the Weasleys to get that money, but let's hope Percy doesn't come back for the greedy reasons. He was very excited to get his winnings from Penelope after the bet on the Quidditch match.<< -- Eighth writes: How could Percy get his hands on the money? Or do you mean that he would only come back to the family because they're suddenly wealthy? Fred and George are now independently well-off, thanks to the shop, or at least they appear to be; Charlie and Bill, I believe, are also independent of their parents. I imagine that the Weasleys actually aren't so badly off as they used to be... Eighth From maliksthong at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 09:59:41 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:59:41 -0000 Subject: Calling All Detectives/ Re: New Droobles Anagram? A code? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131249 > Catjaneway: > Dig D.L. bones below Urg's tomb > D.L. being short for Dark Lord, and Urg being a goblin, > perhaps Urg the Unclean mentioned in GoF (p618 US). I don't understand how that relates to the Voldemort thing though. I always thought that Urg was a goblin that Ron simply made up, as you mentioned there in GOF, during the time that Molly and Bill visited during tri-wiz tourney, at the feast. At least, that's what it sounds like, he was saying they all have names like that. About the bubblegum wrappers, I wondered if they didn't have a list of contents like many other wrappers do, and perhaps every time Neville visits her his mother had circled or marked yet another letter or set of words on the wrapper, a code, trying to communicate with him? (Would explain why he keeps them if not for sentimental value.) Chys From maliksthong at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 10:15:11 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:15:11 -0000 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is?/ Hagrid a Halfling. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131250 > Amie: > My first thought about the HBP, shortly after the title was > released, was that it's Hagrid. He was the only character I > could think of that may be able to be called a prince. > > Which group has a Monarchy to include Princes let alone a HBP? > > English Muggles, but not Wizards. So Prince Charles love-child > with a witch? > Giants? - then Hagrid or Gwramp > Bulgarian Wizards? > > Or my favourite suggested new character ... the wizard from a > tropical country that Sirius Black stayed with after escaping > and sent Harry a tropical bird instead of an owl. > After Sirius died in the last Book, this may be an appropriate > time from that person's appearance. Chys: Not to make an arse of myself, but isn't it more appropriate, if indeed the HBP was Hagrid, to call him and/or /the title of book 6/ 'The Halfling Prince', rather than half-blood, since he's not really half-blood that way, if he's more of a halfling? I think the HBP is probably a wizard without any non-human parents. Just stands to reason, IMO. Like Fleur or her parent is part veela, with halfling blood. Doesn't mean it's not pure-blood, just another species. Or something. The wizard from a tropical country would be good for fanfics. *smiles as I think some up...* Chys From slytherin501 at yahoo.es Thu Jun 23 10:18:13 2005 From: slytherin501 at yahoo.es (Sembei Grindelwald) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:18:13 -0000 Subject: Founders / Re: The good Slytherin / Salazar (Nigellus & Connecting 4 houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131251 > KarentheUnicorn: > > I have a question, we've got two Men...and we've got..two > women.... Well... one of them could be a goblin, or a house elf... Sembei From maliksthong at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 11:26:42 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:26:42 -0000 Subject: IMO, Sirius and Albus... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131252 > Juli wrote: > > You may say that Sirius is DD from the past, > > but I've never read any hint about it in the books, > > have you? > > Alisha: > I think the biggest argument against this theory is that, if Sirius > were DD from the past, when he died DD would have disappeared. He > wouldn't have lived to old age to become DD. Chys: Dropping in my 2 knuts here: Maybe they dunno he's really dead and just assume that you pass through the veil to death? Maybe he's been sent back in time, to a random time in history, and that would be why he seems to know everything- one thing against it, why didn't he stop certain things from happening- maybe he couldn't and not affect time up until this point? *just playing around with theory here* Chys From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Thu Jun 23 12:03:08 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:03:08 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131253 Any Hogswart character to any other, at the breakfast table: Do you suppose those ruddy House Elves will *ever* notice we've run out of Marmite? (That will keep the Americans on the List busy and happy for months ...) Draco to Harry: Good Slytherin, phooey! A detour isn't a U-turn, Potter. Avada Ke ... aaargh! Harry to the smoking ruins of Draco: No more Mr Good Gryffindor either. Now, where's Snape ... er, Professor Snape? Deborah, going away for a while ... anything to distract me ... From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 12:21:29 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:21:29 -0000 Subject: House Elf question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131254 > > Brent said: > > Who or what cleans the student clothing if the elves can't even touch > > it without being freed? > > JLV: > Actually, I'm sure they can touch *other people's* clothes, > particularly if they're being worn. Anyway, the house elves could > probably use their 'special brand of magic' to clean clothes, towels > and sheets which doesn't involve actually picking up any clothes. Tammy: If merely picking up clothes could free a House Elf, Dobby would have been free years ago. I can't see Narcissa cleaning the blood off of Lucius' DE robes - Perhaps they can pick up clothing left aside, and it's only if they are "given" clothes that they are freed. > > > Brent: > > Hermione put elf hats and socks out and they > > would not even clean the common room anymore so I can't see them > going > > to get them to be cleaned. > > JLV: > Hermione didn't leave the hats out to be cleaned, she (1) disguised > them as rubbish to trick the elves and (2) intended to give the clothes > to the elves to free them. I think that as the elves are a proud > specie, they were mortally affronted by Hermione's behaviour and > perhasp even refused to clean them up on principle. It doesn't follow > that they can't touch clothes. It may be that Hermione was mistaken in > thinking that the hats would free the elves (in fact I wouldn't be > surprised if she was - she's not showing great judgment here). > Tammy: My concern about Hermione trying to free the House Elves is whether or not Hermione has the authority to free them. I think she's being awfully arrogant to assume that as a mere student of Hogwarts that she has the right, power, and authority to free any of the Hogwarts House Elves. I mean if anyone could just walk in and free a House Elf, think of the possibilities. If you want to know what's really going on at Lord Voldemort's house, just walk on up and give his House Elf a sock! *Poof* you've freed the elf, and you can now interrogate the House Elf for information. I would guess that the only ones with the power to free the Hogwarts House Elves would be the higher ranking professors - Dumbledore definitely, probably Minerva, and then possibly the remaining three House Professors, Sprout, Snape, and Flitwick. -Tammy, who thinks that 25 days, 15 hours, and 39 minutes is far too long to wait for anything. From Snarryfan at aol.com Thu Jun 23 12:32:40 2005 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:32:40 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131255 > Potioncat: > Nor would I. But the point I was making was that Draco uses "sir" a > lot when talking to Snape. He used it when he was brown-nosing and he > used it under stress when Montague had been found. And for those 2 > conversations my point was that it appears Snape expects "sir" from > all his students, or else Draco wouldn't be using it. > > Draco managed to be rude, although just barely, while calling > Lupin "Professor". For some reason I can't find the conversation > between Draco and Flitwick to see if he uses "sir" with him. Found it, PS, chapter 10, when Harry received his broom: "Not arguing, I hope, boys?" he[Flitwick] squeaked. "Potter's been sent a broomstick, Professor," said Malfoy quickly. Christelle. From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 23 12:36:18 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:36:18 -0000 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is?/ Hagrid a Halfling. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131256 > Chys: > Not to make an arse of myself, but isn't it more appropriate, if > indeed the HBP was Hagrid, to call him and/or /the title of book > 6/ 'The Halfling Prince', rather than half-blood, since he's not > really half-blood that way, if he's more of a halfling? My apologies, Chys. I seem to have a lot of opinions today. I do see your point, but I can't actually recall JKR calling anything a halfling. I remember Umbridge ranting about 'half-breeds' and similar, but that was clearly an impolite way of describing them - as sub-human and not worthy of equal treatment or respect. *If* (big if - my memory is terrible) JKR has not used the term 'halfling' so far then it doesn't stand to reason that she would describe Hagrid as one. I may. of course, be swiftly pointed to a passage where something is described as a halfling, in which case I'll have a big helping of humble pie (with extra gravy). But even if she has used the term, it still doesn't follow that she would never describe what you call a 'halfling' as half-blood. In fact, it seems to me that the term halfling actually misses out the half-WIZARD part. Any half-blood definitely has one wizard parent and one parent who is not seen as pure wizard (be they non wizard or, like Lily, a muggle-born wizard). Analogously, a halfling would be one who has one /human/ parent and one parent who is not seen as pure human. As far as I can see, the terms needn't be mutually exclusive. Furthermore, I know there is established fantasy vocabulary out there, but from what I have seen, JKR doesn't really subscribe to much of it: she makes things her own - makes up her own words and definitions when things depart from reality. She can call everything what she darn well likes. In conclusion, I still have no idea who the HBP is. The only pople I can rule out are the pure-blood characters - like Neville, James or Sirius. Still, it's all JMO anyway, JLV xx From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jun 23 12:53:33 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:53:33 -0000 Subject: Voldemort: Born or Made Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131257 Tamara: > Do you think Lord Voldemort was born so terribly evil, or was he made > that way by his circumstances? Jen: We know he wasn't born evil from the World Book Day chat in 2004: mnich: "Was Voldemort born evil?" JK Rowling replies -> "I don't believe that anybody was born evil. You will find out more about the circumstances of his birth in the next book." But that leaves alot of room to determine exactly how Riddle evolved into Lord Voldemort! I can't tell if JKR's comment implies that the mysterious circumstances of Riddle's birth *contributed* to his evil path, or if those are separate issues: 'He wasn't born evil. But since you ask about his birth, yes, there is more to the story' vs. 'He wasn't born evil, but there were circumstances during his birth that contributed to the path he chose later.' Given his young age when he starts evolving into the Dark Lord, the ideas contributed by Kneasy et. al. re: possession by Salazar when Riddle visits the COS are intriguing. I don't believe he was actually possessed by Slytherin, more that he visited the COS and probably did talk to Salazar's ghost, who said things he wanted to hear about Power and Immortality. An old plot twist, seduction by promises of power, but a goodie. Hey, at least we don't have long to wait now! Jen From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 23 13:15:29 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:15:29 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131258 Lupinlore: > Oh, not weird phoenixgod, I definitely agree with you. :-) Snape has not earned Harry's respect, and Harry should not give it to him, Pippin: Respect may not be due for the teacher, but what about the subject? We've known from day one that potions are dangerous, even life-threatening, if mishandled. If the authority of the professor is not respected, someone could be very badly hurt. Regardless of how he feels about Snape as a person, Harry cannot be allowed to reject Snape's authority and remain in his class. It would endanger him and all his fellow students besides. Pippin From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 23 13:35:17 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:35:17 -0000 Subject: 1000 Galleon Reward In-Reply-To: <20050623051059.70616.qmail@web33115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney wrote: > Regarding the 1000 Galleon Reward offered for the > capture of any of the escaped DEs, I had a thought. > JKR said that Harry will leave Privet Drive early in > the summer for a "pleasant" reason. What if its to > collect the reward money? Thoughts anyone? Yes. I posted the original message about the reward and this exact same thought ocurred to me, rather belatedly, last night when I was supposed to be going to sleep! I didn't make myself clear in the original post (there's a surprise!) but my gut reaction was that the reward would be 9000 galleons and that the adults would decline to share it, although Lupin may be persuaded to take his share due to his personal circumstances. I also think that Harry and Hermione will decline, as neither of them are needy financially. This will leave the reward to be shared between Ron, Ginny, Luna (she is also not well off. At the Quiddich world cup Mr Weasly said that people with the cheaper tickets had to go much earlier and they were told when they got to the portkey 'station' that the Lovegoods had been on site 2 weeks already) and possibly Neville and Lupin. I also thought last night, when wondering if this could be the 'pleasant reason', that they may also be being awarded with a Junior Merlin award or something similar. A sort of cross between the Merlin First and Second class awards that some of the adults have and the Chilren of Courage awards from the RW. Karen From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 23 13:50:22 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:50:22 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > So, tell me some really interesting ones I've completely failed to > notice! Pippin: No such list would be complete without Dumbledore's famous Gleam, though I doubt you failed to notice it Here are some other, mostly to do with Lupin, I'm afraid: "However, due to a lucky mistake I arrived at the Ministry three hours early, so no harm done." (OOtP-US 8,139) The name Professor R.J. Lupin was stamped across one corner in peeling letters. (PoA-US 5, 74) "Forward, Neville, and finish him off!" said Lupin as the boggart landed on the floor as a cockroach. (PoA-US 7, 139) "I made an entire cauldronful," Snape continued, "if you need more." (PoA-US 8, 156) An odd, closed expression appeared on Lupin's face. (PoA-US 14,288) "As long as I take it in the week preceding the full moon, I keep my mind when I transform...I am able to curl up in my office, a harmless wolf, and wait for the moon to wane again." (PoA-US 18, 353) "He let me into Hogwarts as a boy,and he gave me a job when I have been shunned all my life, unable to find paid work because of what I am." (PoA-US 18, 356) "So that's why Snape doesn't like you," said Harry slowly, "because he thought you were in on the joke?" (PoA-US 18, 357) "Not if he thought I was the spy, Peter," said Lupin. (PoA-US 19, 373) The moon drifted in and out of sight behind the shifting clouds. (PoA-US 21,408) Lupin shifted the grindylow tank slightly so that he and Dumbledore could shake hands. (PoA-US 21,425) "I think it depends on what they're offered," said Lupin. "And I'm not talking about gold; if they're offered freedoms we've been denying them for centuries they're going to be tempted." (OOtP-US 5, 85) ...and Lupin, who was staying in the house with Sirius, but who left it for long periods to do mysterious work for the Order... (OOtP-US 6 ,118) When he next looked up, night had fallen and the Quidditch pitch was no longer visible. (OOtP-US 13,274) "I know she's a nasty piece of work though -- you should hear Remus talk about her." (OOtP-US 14, 302) Harry heard Bellatrix Lestrange's triumphant scream but knew it meant nothing -- (OOtP-US 35, 806) "Master, I am sorry, I knew not, I was fighting the Animagus Black!" sobbed Bellatrix, flinging herself down at Voldemort's feet as he slowly paced nearer. (OOtP-US 36, 812) "You are not his master, he could lie to you without even needing to punish himself." (OOtP-US 37, 829) Note that the two quotes about the moon contradict Harry's implied understanding of how the transformation works, and that Lupin's account of his work history is contradicted by the evidence of the case. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 23 13:48:00 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:48:00 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <006901c577a7$d0f3a780$e858aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131261 Amanda wrote: > And I maintain that Snape is making these corrections deliberately, to > control the conversation, for reasons that have nothing to do with Harry > personally and everything to do with the fact that Voldemort has a window > into Harry's mind. Potioncat: Good point. I think you're right. I don't think we know the real truth about Occlumency lessons. Harry was told why he was taking lessons, just like McG was told why baby Harry was being left with the Dursleys. Truth, but perhaps not the whole truth. And I've always thought Snape was in danger just by offering the lessons. We know he often does seemingly "mean" things for what turns out to be "good" reasons. Just like Crouch!Moody did "good" things for "bad" reasons; and this would fit that pattern. Christelle found the site for Draco addressing Flitwick as Professor. And I found the section where McG caught Draco and the others out after midnight (Norbert incident) Draco uses "Professor" everytime he speaks to McG. Of course, under those circumstances, he would. So it's hard to tell if this is Draco's pattern or a Slytherin pattern. More interesting is the DADA class that Snape subs. No one calls him sir except for Hermione and "Professor" isn't always used either. He never corrects anyone. Ron finally gets into trouble for rudeness, but by then, he is mouthing off. (and with good reason.) From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 13:05:35 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050623130535.88527.qmail@web33701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131262 Julie: >To me both of them are straight, Marozi: Eh, I've never known any straight men who, on hearing a woman's outfit described, would think to ask about the handbag. :D Seriously, I always took them for lovers and was a bit surprised when I realized other adult readers weren't seeing it that way. Then when I thought about why, I realized it had something to do with how POA is written. The first two books have mystery elements but are basically coming-of-age adventure stories, but POA is really a Gothic Mystery, and the Deep Dark Secret at the heart of the plot is the connection between Lupin and Sirius. The teasing way in which this is revealed practically seethes with the sort of suppressed romantic energy you find in those types of novels; for example, Lupin dropping his briefcase at the mention of Sirius's name is like something out of Wilkie Collins. So while it isn't necessary to read their story as one of star-crossed love, it does work rather brilliantly that way. It makes sense out of the huge, dramatic, but vaguely-defined emotions that drive POA. Why is Snape so sure that Lupin will help his "old friend?" Why does Dumbledore say that Lupin would be discredited if he tried to testify on Sirius's behalf because they were "old friends?" Given that Sirius's supposed victims were also Lupin's friends, this seems to be assuming a rather perverse level of devotion on Lupin's part. Understanding "old friend" as a euphemism makes it make sense. And they do act very "couply" in OotP - "like an old married couple" as Alan Rickman would say I guess - right down to parenting Harry together. The joint gift is really the least of it. What about this: Ginny did not go quietly. They could hear her raging and storming at her mother all the way up the stairs, and when she reached the hall Mrs. Black's earsplitting shrieks were added to the din. Lupin hurried off to the portrait to restore calm. It was only after he had returned, closing the kitchen door behind him and taking his seat at the table again, that Sirius spoke. "Okay, Harry...what do you want to know?" (US pb 91). Why? Why is Lupin even part of this conversation, let alone the one who actually decides how much Harry should know? Because he and Sirius operate as one of two competing sets of surrogate parents, and honestly, Molly could stand to take a lesson in co-parenting from them. She disrespects Arthur in front of the kids all the time. Betsy Hp: > I like the idea of Sirius/Remus being JKR's little > subversive > addition to the text. Marozi: Yeah, radical tolerance and equal rights are the values most consistently upheld by the books, and you can see that in the subplots of both characters. Gifted teachers should not be kept from working by the ignorant prejudice of parents and politicians. Teenagers should not be driven from home by bigoted mothers who call them "abominations." There's a lot of subtextual resonance there. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From hackett1171 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 12:23:41 2005 From: hackett1171 at yahoo.com (kim hagen) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Voldemort: Born or Made Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050623122341.64822.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131263 > Tamara wrote: > Do you think Lord Voldemort was born so terribly evil, or was > he made that way by his circumstances? JLV: > Voldemort *chose* an evil path, but he could have made other > choices. I am also sure he was aware of the consequences of > the decisions he made, so if he get burned, he really will > deserve it. The contingency is important to me. Good point JLV.... IMO, I think that power can bring someone down the wrong path, even if they know it is wrong. Voldie did make choices but the power he was obtaining and the following he was gathering whilst in school was gving him such a great feeling that he kept on the path of evil.....disregarding the consequences and what choices may lay in the future, becuase at that point does the future matter to a 16 year old, it's the power that matters and that's it. Just my 2 knuts "hackett1171" From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 23 14:03:13 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:03:13 -0000 Subject: Forgiving Snape / was Re: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" > wrote: > > Tonks: > > > > > 1. It allows Harry to move on with his life and not be bound to > > Snape because of his anger towards Snape. Harry can let it go for > > his own sake. This is good mental health. As the saying goes the > > best way to get even with an enemy is to live well. Lupinlore: > Perhaps in actual life - for certain kinds of people with certain > kinds of belief systems in certain kinds of situations. For other > kinds of people with other beliefs in other situations this just ain't gonna work. As a psychologist friend of mine who specializes in abuse cases often says, "sometimes nothing in the world is healthier than hatred." But the question at hand here is would it make for a good story? I think if done explicitly and for the reasons stated here, the answer is "no." It would amount to preaching and heavy-handed moralizing of the type JKR claims to hate. Pippin: I can't see how sticking to what would work in real life would amount to heavy-handed preaching and moralizing. And I think the question also has to be asked, "What does JKR think is healthy?" There is some indication that she agrees that hatred is healthy. She has Harry say that it's impossible to live with the Dursleys and not hate them. (CoS-US 11,200) But I can find no indication in canon that she thinks hurting others in order to gratify hatred is healthy or productive, even if they have earned punishment. I think there's a clear distinction in the books between punishment inflicted justly in righteous anger and punishment inflicted to gratify hate. When Harry confronts Dudley over his treatment of Mark Evans, the moment when Harry stops being outraged about Dudley's actions and starts thinking about how good it feels to make Dudley afraid is clearly delineated. Harry daydreams of inflicting a crucio on Snape. But it's significant that even as filled with hatred as he has ever been, Harry can't will himself to injure Sirius or even Bella. Hatred alone, JKR seems to be saying, need not bring us to harm anyone. It might well be that Harry injures Snape, but if he does I think he will live to regret it. That might be even smarmier than not doing it in the first place, though. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 14:05:58 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:05:58 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <006901c577a7$d0f3a780$e858aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131265 Amanda: > So--Snape redirects the conversations with Harry at key points, using an old > familiar mechanism, to (a) keep Harry from becoming excited about an answer, > as the excitement may attract Voldemort's attention "inside" Harry, and > therefore basically telling Voldemort much about what we know of his > movements and motives; and (b) to keep the conversation with Harry on a > familiar, standard, level of interaction to avoid difficulties with Snape's > own Occlumency later. > Alla: Well, I am going to put aside my opinion that it would be perfectly in character for Snape to demand that from Harry simply to massage his ego for one second and point out that option (b) could be problematic for one factual reason - we don't know whether Snape is indeed came back to Voldemort and if he did not, Snape has no need to hide anything from Voldemort. If it is indeed so, then he keeps conversation with Harry on familiar standard level simply because he is who he is, IMO. Of course he could have been spying by conventional means, but I alwys found the fact that the name of the person who was giving the report to the Order not named to be quite suspicious, among many other things. JMO, Alla. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 23 14:12:38 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:12:38 -0000 Subject: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: <20050622233806.7000.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > >Julie: > > I've read everywhere that people think that Remus and > > Sirius are (were) a couple, I've re-read all the books > > looking for hints at this, but I have found none. Am I > > missing something, or is this just fanfic? To me both > > of them are straight, they are best friends, sure, but > > does it mean they're lovers? > > > I think if Sirius and Remus had been lovers, then Sirius wouldn't > have felt so totally bummed out. He would have had something, a > relationship, to hang onto. So I don't think there was anything > sexual or romantic between them. > > Magda Marianne: Oh, I don't know about that. Couples, gay or straight, can go through tough and trying times when things aren't working out and neither side seems to be able to communicate to the other. And, in the case of Sirius and Remus, in OoP they may have been trying to put things back together after having spent well over 10 years apart. I would think they'd have a lot of baggage to deal with which couldn't be dealt with and put behind them quickly. If Sirius was unsure of where they stood, and Remus, not being one to wear his emotions on his sleeve, was not always forthcoming about his feelings, plus was absent on Order business, then I think this could add to Sirius' depression. I'm in whole-hearted agreement with Betsy's post. For my part, thinking these two are/were lovers just rings true in how the characters feel to me, if that makes any sense. Should JKR torpedo this ship, so be it. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if she leaves the door open. Marianne From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Jun 23 14:16:43 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:16:43 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > Pippin: > > Respect may not be due for the teacher, but what about the > subject? > > We've known from day one that potions are dangerous, even > life-threatening, if mishandled. If the authority of the > professor is not respected, someone could be very badly hurt. > Regardless of how he feels about Snape as a person, Harry > cannot be allowed to reject Snape's authority and remain > in his class. It would endanger him and all his fellow students > besides. > > Pippin Good point, but I don't recall Harry ever refusing to follow instructions on making potions. It's true he doesn't pay attention sometimes, and I suppose you can argue that his disrespect for Snape is a part of that, but if so he is no worse than Ron or many of the other students -- including some of the Slytherins, judging by Goyle setting fire to his own robes. I guess you could make a more general argument that disrespect leads to a "loose" and "dangerous" classroom, but we've certainly seen no sign of that. No one seems to regard the accidents that arise in Potions class as anything other than par for the course. You are right that disrespect would become dangerous if Harry were to say "Stupid git, I'm not GOING to put the bat wings in. I'll put the newt's eye in and show him!" But Harry never does any such. To expand, I would say that in Potion making (that is his technical knowledge about potions and how to prepare them) Snape has largely earned Harry's respect. In so far as that goes I will admit that I spoke too sweepingly and modify my statement about Snape not earning respect from Harry. And, in Potion making (which is not exactly the same as Potions CLASS), he is granted respect (or as much respect as any teacher is going to get from most students of that age). Now, in Occlumency Snape did not earn Harry's respect, thus leading to disaster. You could say, I suppose, that Snape acts no differently in Occlumency than he does in potions, but Harry doesn't have the same physical and mental reaction to potions, either. A different situation, then, and respect in one area does not automatically carry over into another. Neither does Snape earn Harry's respect in most other areas -- for instance with regard to his policies about enforcing school rules. Lupinlore From amis917 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 23 14:45:26 2005 From: amis917 at hotmail.com (amis917) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:45:26 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131268 Saraquel: Whilst reading the books, I've come across a few "one liners" which have always puzzled me - as in, "why put in that detail?" Amie: When reading OOTP, I question this one each time.. (Aunt Petunia's just heard the howler) "'What is this?' Uncle Vernon said hoarsely. 'What -- I don't -- Petunia?'" I'm not sure why he's so confused. When they took Harry in, was he not included in all of the details? The message clearly makes sense to Petunia, because she made Harry stay. I'm just interested in knowing what actually happened when Harry was taken in by the Dursleys. Amie From maliksthong at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 14:44:06 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:44:06 -0000 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is?/ Hagrid a Halfling. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131269 > > Chys: > > isn't it more appropriate, if indeed the HBP was Hagrid, > > to call him and/or /the title of book 6/ 'The Halfling Prince', > > rather than half-blood, since he's not really half-blood that > > way, if he's more of a halfling? JLV: > My apologies, Chys. I seem to have a lot of opinions today. I do > see your point, but I can't actually recall JKR calling anything > a halfling. I remember Umbridge ranting about 'half-breeds' and > similar, but that was clearly an impolite way of describing them > - as sub-human and not worthy of equal treatment or respect. Chys: Yes, that was the phrase that I was thinking of, thanks for reminding me! (How else do you describe it, though? I think it's all in how it's spoken, in terms of respect. To me halfling is milder, but that's JMO.) I don't know myself if the actual word halfling was used in the book but it's the same meaning in essence, and as you got my point, it's understood. Half-breed and halfling are the same concept here. > JLV: > But even if she has used the term, it still doesn't follow that > she would never describe what you call a 'halfling' as half-blood. > In fact, it seems to me that the term halfling actually misses out > the half-WIZARD part. Any half-blood definitely has one wizard > parent and one parent who is not seen as pure wizard (be they non > wizard or, like Lily, a muggle-born wizard). Analogously, a > halfling would be one who has one /human/ parent and one parent > who is not seen as pure human. As far as I can see, the terms > needn't be mutually exclusive. Chys: I'm not ruling out that she could. You understood me correctly, but I was thinking what difference would it make for Hagrid, being wizard or no, if the coupling is with another species? I assume his father was wizard because simply, Hagrid attended Hogwarts at one point. (I don't remember if it was mentioned specifically his father's wizarding background.) It's a wizarding school, not a school for giants. With all the rampant descrimination, I figured it would be taken into account. Even if by that definition he were half-blooded, it's different. In the long run for any coupling, it may have been a pure blooded wizard or a muggle and someone of another species, makes no difference where the other species is concerned... (Unless JKR comes up with something like a coupling between a -muggle- and a giant wouldn't produce, then it's beside the point. We'd know for certain his father were wizard in that circumstance, pure-blooded or not, that's another question. Beside the point.) I was just thinking wouldn't the majority of wizarding society see him as a halfling or half-breed, rather than half-blooded specifically? It's the greater identifier. That was what I was getting at. > JLV: > Furthermore, I know there is established fantasy vocabulary out > there, but from what I have seen, JKR doesn't really subscribe to > much of it: she makes things her own - makes up her own words and > definitions when things depart from reality. She can call > everything what she darn well likes. Chys: Yes, and neither do I know the established fantasy vocabulary, this was just something I used to attempt to describe the ancestry off the top of my head. (I play D&D on a very rare basis, so maybe that's where I got it from. *shrugs*) To me halfling is from two different species coupled to produced mixed offspring, JMO. Hagrid fits this description. > JLV: > In conclusion, I still have no idea who the HBP is. The only > people I can rule out are the pure-blood characters - like > Neville, James or Sirius. > > Still, it's all JMO anyway, Chys: Of course, same here. I just think it's a good argument against the HBP being Hagrid, where titles are concerned. Or someone whose part Veela, or part goblin for that matter, in the same category. Chys From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 15:27:12 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:27:12 -0000 Subject: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20050622223515.01897de0@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131270 Been biting my tongue on this one, but I can't stand it a minute longer. I suppose that it is just a sign of the times, but I am really sick of people thinking that because two people of the same sex are best friends, and like an old married couple, that they have to be homosexual. I have had young people ask me when I take my best friend somewhere if she is my mother or my lover. NO, she is my *friend* and I am straight. Geech I think that we have gone too far in the other direction. Sometimes people are friends. Can't two people be friends anymore!? Does everything have to be sexual? I think that Remus and Lupin are just that, friends. Which is a deeper bond than lover, if you ask me. A lover can leave, a real friend never does. Tonks_op From mich at ntl.sympatico.ca Thu Jun 23 15:13:09 2005 From: mich at ntl.sympatico.ca (Mich Verrier) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:13:09 -0400 Subject: Voldemort: Born or Made Evil? References: Message-ID: <068401c57806$17733410$bc59e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> No: HPFGUIDX 131271 Tamara: > Do you think Lord Voldemort was born so terribly evil, or was > he made that way by his circumstances? Mich Verrier Writes: I think that he was made that way. I mean look at him, he was abandoned by his parents so he grew resentful of his muggle up-bringing. And yes, I think that he was made that way because of his circumstances. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 15:43:09 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:43:09 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131272 Tonks wrote: Been biting my tongue on this one, but I can't stand it a minute longer. I suppose that it is just a sign of the times, but I am really sick of people thinking that because two people of the same sex are best friends, and like an old married couple, that they have to be homosexual. I think that we have gone too far in the other direction. Sometimes people are friends. Can't two people be friends anymore!? Does everything have to be sexual? I think that Remus and Lupin are just that, friends. Which is a deeper bond than lover, if you ask me. A lover can leave, a real friend never does. Alla: I don't think anyone was arguing that two people of the same sex cannot be friends anymore, but same is true for the other option and two people of the same sex can be lovers too, right? There are at least hints in OOP that Remus and Sirius could be a couple and I find it fun to think that they in fact were. Madam Marozi, I think offered great interpretation of those hints. Could it be that JKR indeed teasing us? Yes, of course, but as long as she does not flat out deny that Sirius and Remus were lovers, I am going to think thay in fact were. I mean, if she wanted to deny this ship, she would do so as she did with Draco /Hermione ( Thanks G-d . :-) This SHIP was giving me very bad reaction ) They work well as friends, but they work for me at least even better as lovers and that can offer so many interesting interpretations of the past. JMO, Alla, who likes Sirius and Snape as a couple the most in fanfiction, but who grew to like Sirius and Remus very much too as most canonically plausible one. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 15:46:48 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius & Remus (replies to many posts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050623154648.85054.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131273 --- Tonks wrote: > Been biting my tongue on this one, but I can't stand > it a minute > longer. I suppose that it is just a sign of the > times, but I am really > sick of people thinking that because two people of > the same sex are > best friends, and like an old married couple, that > they have to be > homosexual. I have had young people ask me when I > take my best friend > somewhere if she is my mother or my lover. NO, she > is my *friend* and I > am straight. Geech I think that we have gone too > far in the other > direction. Sometimes people are friends. Can't two > people be friends > anymore!? Does everything have to be sexual? I > think that Remus and > Lupin are just that, friends. Which is a deeper > bond than lover, if > you ask me. A lover can leave, a real friend never > does. Juli (replies to many posts) I agree with you 110% Tonks, and after reading all the posts about people who think they may be gay, and I haven't read any argument that may persuade me into thinking otherwise... Shippers are just basing their theories on scenes that are perfectly straight (AFAIK), I mean, they could easily be scenes between me and my best friends, either my best girl-friend (and we're not gay), or my best guy-friend (and we're not a couple). As Tonk says the bonds between two friends is much deeper than a lovers'. Let's consider that Remus and Sirius have known each other for about 20 years, they sure are closed. Remember that Sirius (& co) even became animagi just to keep Remus company while the full moon, if it isn't true friendship I don't know what is. Unless Jo shows us in a more explicit way their "relationship", I'm sticking to the Just Friends Theory. And just to show a bit of canon from Jo's website (News- J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival) "Does Harry have a godmother? If so, will she make an appearance in future books? No, he doesnt. I have thought this through. If Sirius had married Sirius was too busy being a big rebel to get married. When Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, just the best friend. At that point it looked as if the Potters would have to go into hiding so obviously they could not do the big christening thing and invite lots of people. Sirius is the only one, unfortunately. I have got to be careful what I say there, havent I?" Juli __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 23 15:57:17 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:57:17 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131274 Alla: > They work well as friends, but they work for me at least even better > as lovers and that can offer so many interesting interpretations of > the past. Potioncat: I'll start off with apologies if I say something patronizing, or rude, I don't mean to. (If I say something just plain stupid, that's par for the course.) Given that there is enough canon support for the idea that that Sirius and Remus are partners, this line from James has a new twist: "Well, it's more the fact that he *exists*, if you know what I mean..." That's the same excuse used by gay bashers after beating someone up for being different. From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 16:32:32 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050623163232.6985.qmail@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131275 Alla: > I don't think anyone was arguing that two people of > the same sex > cannot be friends anymore, Marozi: No, no one argues that. I've never seen it seriously argued, for example, that Harry and Ron are anything other than close friends, in spite of Ron being Harry's most cherished person in GOF. No one suggested that Sirius and *James* were anything other than good friends, in spite of Sirius saying he would have died for him. Devaluing or being unable to recognize friendship is not the point at all. Anyway, "friends" and "lovers" are not mutually exclusive. Couples of long standing are usually both. *waves at Alla* ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From alishak at spu.edu Thu Jun 23 16:40:15 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:40:15 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar (Ye Purebloods, Merlin was What!?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131276 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "unicorn_72" wrote: I don't see monks > or nuns here, in this wizarding community I have read about so far, > these people are having kids, and getting married, and by the amount > of students that are showing up at Hogwarts. I don't see them as, holy > obstainers...meh..maybe that went to the religious idea I replied to > earlier in this thread, so, take that as it is, just an offhand > comment. Alisha: Well, there is the Fat Friar. Also, I think the issue of religious figures was brought up to show that it's possible Helga and Rowena could have been educated, single women brought up in a convent, and therefore considered with reverence and equality. > > I don't think these ideals all of a sudden came up now that Harry is > in school in the 90's. I imagine, perhaps as someone said, maybe the > original founders were, very religeous, or something to that affect, > so sqashing my notion of the founders being involved with each other, > I would still wager though, they may have though about being married > to each other, you can't get two men and two women together without > that though never occuring, but, maybe they were > workaholics...building a castle is a lot of work I imagine, even for > wizards. Yes, I can hear some of you argue that, you can indeed get > two men and women in a room and they will not think of getting > married, and this is a childrens book, but I wager, considering what I > know, if they were adults, that at least though it once. > Perhaps that could have been why they seperated from the muggle > community, because they wanted to not worry about the women/man issue. > If that is so, I say, you go girls, Rowena and Helga sure trained > Godrick and Salizar, of course, one wonders how old they were when > they founded Hogwarts, I don't know if there is any canon to give > there ages..so...I'll digress from that. Alisha: What about the possibility of them having spouses outside the foursome? Perhaps it's Salazar and Samantha Slytherin or Rowena and Robert Ravenclaw. > > But, I also think, we are assuming something here, Was Hogwarts the > origination of the Wizarding World, Seperate from the Muggle World, or > was the Wizarding World, already seperated from the Muggle world? I > believe this is a what came first, the chicken or the egg question. Alisha: Wasn't the International Act of Wizarding Secrecy (or whatever it's called) set up in the 1400s? So if Hogwart's was founded 1000 years before CoS, then it would have been about 400 years before the wizards separated from the muggles. > > It might be considered that perhaps the teachers are the one's who, do > not have a family life, because being a teacher of magical children is > a full time job, but I also remember that JKR made a comment about > Professors being married, I suppose their is more to come of that. > > The idea of being Pureblood, the big ideas of having kids continue the > pureblood ideals, and the pureblood line, don't seem like very non > gender related topic to me. It is harkening back to the days when > women were sold to the highest bidder, and, if these pureblood ideals > still exist, then I would say in the wizarding world it would still > have to go on to some extent, so, the book's don't seem to show, at > least to me, that they the wold JKR had created is minus in the normal > muggle gender bias. Families who are pureblood and also friends, would > have to assure their children married, and had children who were > pureblood. > > That may be a mutual thing between the two who are going to marry, and > it may just be a time honored tradition in the Slytherin house, but, > it is also being brought up in a very non gender friendly way, if you > ask me. A woman would be forced to accept her family's choice, purely > based on the bloodline and nothing else. Alisha: I don't see how this flows logically from the pureblood ideal. If the males in the family hold such prejudices, it is entirely possible that the females do as well. There's no way of knowing what would happen to a woman who chose to marry a non- pureblood wizard. She would probably be disowned, but that is no different than what happens to Tonks' mother. Narcissa Malfoy probably chose to marry a pureblood wizard based on her own prejudices not necessarily those of her family. And inversely, if a wizard chose to marry a non-pureblood witch, he would also probably have been disowned. It is not only the women who might have been pressured into marrying against their will. In order for a family to remain "toujours pur", both the witches and the wizards would have to marry only purebloods. > > The books also overflows with, family, Mother, Father, Child....and > those without a mother and father. > The weasley's are a somewhat traditional family, mother says home, dad > works, they have a bunch of kids. The Malfoy's also purebloods, seem > to have the same system, father seems to be in charge from what we > have seen so far. Well, one might argue the point with the Weasley's > as to who is in charge, but by Arthur working, he is the breadwinner, > and theirfor head of house...I suppose one can argue that fact with > me..but anyway. Alisha: Again, I don't see this as entirely logical. First of all, it is apparent that Narcissa carries at least some sway in the Malfoy household. It was her decision for Draco to attend Hogwart's instead of Durmstrang. Also, it's possible that Molly chose to stay home with the children. She seems a capable witch in her own right, I'm sure she could have gotten a job if she chose to. The presence of a homemaker does not always indicate a patriarchal system. And to say that since Arthur is the breadwinner he is the head of the house is simply propagating patriarchal values. That's the argument that people have used for centuries to argue male superiority. Since the man is the one who "works" he is the one to whom the female should submit. The reason that men worked, historically, was because they were physiologically better suited to the work that needed to be done. It is natural in many animals as well for one gender to do specific work because they are physically better capable. (Think of lionesses doing the hunting because the male lions' manes make them too conspicuous for stalking prey.) > > The Weasley's also are pureblood, so, not all pureblood's are in > slytherin, Now I know, some of you are going to correct me, probably > with canon, someone said..yes I know, that being a pureblood is a > farce, no real wizard anymore is actually a pureblood. To get right > down to it, no wizard anywhere, has ever actually been pureblood. If I > remember correctly, the story based Merlin was born of a nun seduced > by an evil spirit, though, I very seriously doubt JKR is putting that > in her childrens book, though his name is used quite a lot, and that > is just the facts of the story Merlin, again, I didn't make it up. Alisha: This is only one version of the story of Merlin. When it comes to legends, there are no "facts", only interpretations. > > The roles to me seem very traditional, you might even take some of the > teachers as example. Dumbledore is in charge, McGonagall is second to > him at Hogwarts, again, keeping the traditional role of Male in > charge, female as the backup. OK, that might be taking it a bit too > far, but it is how the school is run, I didn't make it that way. > > Again, Head of Houses, Snape/male, Flitwick/male, McGonagal/female, > Sprout/female, ok, no, I'm not saying there hooked up! (laughs) I'm > saying, you again, have an balance, two of each. I don't know if it > was always this way, but, it is what we are most aware of as far as > storyline goes. Alisha: JKR has pointed out several times that she intentionally kept the balance of teaching staff at Hogwart's 50% male and 50% female. And there are certainly witches among the headmasters' portraits in DD's office, so while the current headmaster is male, that has apparently not always been the case. > > I don't think there is going to be a flood in the books and everyone > is going to walk on the ark two by two, its just a noticable and very > real thing I see in the books. The woman have their role, and the men > also have theirs, is that gender bias, or whatever someone might say > about it or my opinon....I don't know really. > > Are the books lacking in gender related topics,and has JKR made a > world where women and men are exactly the same, I don't think so, of > course, one can disagree with me on that, but, I see that, their is a > very real role that the men and women play in this story....generally > its just the fact of life, the story is reflecting reality, again, I > didn't make the laws of nature so don't blame me for it, or for > thinking it. Alisha: It seems to me that we have a very limited view of the majority of the wizarding world to be making these sort of assumptions. I can only think of two cases that we know of where the husband "works" and the wife stays at home (Malfoys and Weasleys), but if you think about it, Lucius Malfoy doesn't really work. He just manages the estate and keeps the wheels greased for his political maneuverings. Think about Amelia Bones. She's very high up in the ministry. Think of Bellatrix Lestrange. She's practically Voldemort's right hand woman. Think of Neville's Gran. Although a generally umpleasant person, she seems to be the head of her family. > > Though, you can blame me for my twisted since of humor, I still say > Salizar pined after Rowena, dang it! How boring is it if they were all > 200 years old...and never even looked at each other once..that seems > boring...I say they had a few arguments, and not just over what kids > to let into school. > I'll bet Rowena told Salizar he's not putting his stinking pet > basalisk in the castle, she told him better put the dang thing as far > away from her as possible or she is going to chop out its eyes > and....ok..again, my imagination is running away with me again. > "But Row...hes really a nice sort of snake." > "I told you, if you bring that thing into the castle, I'll not talk to > you for a week!" > > Ok, I'll stop now, I know my humor is bad. > Alisha: I find your humor to be quite amusing actually. The idea of Rowena putting her foot down made me chuckle! -Alisha: who has surprised herself once again with her vehement rejections of supposed misogyny. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 16:53:59 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:53:59 -0000 Subject: Voldemort: Born or Made Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131277 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > Do you think Lord Voldemort was born so terribly evil, or was he made that way by his circumstances? > Tonks: First one is not born evil. And JKR has even said that. One could argue the point that what we have here in the books, books written for children, is a discourse on Bullying. First we have Tom Riddle, mistreated in the orphanage by we assume his peers and perhaps by the adults as well. Tom was different than the other kids; he acted differently because of his magical abilities. This would have caused other to react. The adults may have been like Vernon, afraid of magic. The kids may have been like Dudley, bullies. And see what happened to poor little orphan Tom. See what all of his anger and rage made of him. (In the U.S., as most of you know, kids have killed whole groups of their classmates, even innocent people, because they were the victim of bullying and couldn't take it anymore.) Tom would have been justified to feel this type of hatred towards the kids in the orphanage who mistreated him. So we are left with the question, who is to blame for the existence of LV? Tom is the most to blame because he chose to react by returning evil for evil. But I do not think that it is Tom's fault alone. I think that LV exist because of the mistreatment of Tom Riddle. I think that the bullies have a part of the blame and the society that allows it to happen also has a part. We are asked to think about what kept LV from dying? I think one answer can be the inhumanity of man to man. As was once said: "We are all involved in mankind, what happens to one happens to all. Never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for ye" (pardon my poor paraphrasing.) Next we have Snape. He too was the victim of bullying. And see what his anger has made of him. A man not able to let go of the past. A man able to master his emotions enough to be a good spy, but not able to get over his feelings towards James. (And I am beginning to wonder just what kind of a nasty piece of work James really was, to be frank. But that is another post.) Then we have Harry. Harry is an example of someone like the other two who has somehow (??) managed to rise above it all. And the mystery is just how has he been able to do that? I think that the books are about many things, and one of them is the developing the ability to overcome the evil done to us by other so that we do not give it back to the world. Tonks_op From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Thu Jun 23 17:10:24 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:10:24 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131278 > Alla: > > I don't think anyone was arguing that two people of the same sex > cannot be friends anymore, but same is true for the other option and > two people of the same sex can be lovers too, right? Funny, I always took Sirius and Lupin as lovers, and I don't even like Sirius. One thing Jo has done is shown how wrong prejudice is, just look at Harry's opinion of the statue in the MoM. Add to that the blood purity and the only comments about gays in the book came from Dudley, it's pretty plain that she is a very tolerant person. She probably knows that putting an out gay couple in the book would have made many parents uneasy about their children reading the stories. I mean she's getting grief because of the increasing violence, imagine if she had an out and proud homosexual or lesbian? Casey From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 17:39:06 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050623173906.27805.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131279 > Lupinlore: > > Oh, not weird phoenixgod, I definitely agree with you. :-) > Snape has not earned Harry's respect, and Harry should not give it > to him, One of the main reasons I find this argument tiresome is that at the ripe old age of 15, uncurious-to-the-point-of-braindead-sometimes Harry Potter is in no position to decide whether Snape deserves respect or not. He knows next to nothing about the man's life and actions, except the snippets he's heard from others, and without a more complete knowledge of Snape I really don't see how a teenager can make a sweeping assumption about whether or not he "earned" respect. Lupinlore and Phoenixgod will rush in to claim otherwise of course but I don't find their arguments at all persuasive. Magda (cant wait for the next 26 days to be over so we'll stop going over the same ground again and again) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 18:01:26 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:01:26 -0000 Subject: apparating in and out of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131280 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smilingator4915" wrote: > > --- amiabledorsai wrote: > > > "...In CoS, Dobby disappeared from Harry's grip with a loud > > > crack when Colin Creevey was brought in. Now, house elf magic > > > may be a bit different than human, but one exception implies > > > the possible existence of others." > > Juli: > > Jo has explained it at the website (under FAQ), here's > > the quote: > > > "You say that people cannot Apparate or Disapparate > > within Hogwarts and yet Dobby manages it, why is this? > > House-elves are different from wizards; they have > > their own brand of magic, and the ability to appear > > and disappear within the castle is necessary to them > > if they are to go about their work unseen, as > > house-elves traditionally do." > > > As for other beings, I don't think they can, only > > elves > > smilingator4915: > > Yes, house-elves can apparantly apparate and disapparate at > Hogwarts. But are they the only non-humans that can? After all, > can't phoenixes apparate and disapparate? In CoS, "... flames > erupted at the top of the nearest pillar (in the Chamber). A crimson > bird the size of a swan had appeared..." The bird is of course, > Fawkes. > > Dobby got into Hogwarts in CoS... though he was trying to help Harry > out. But could Dark Wizards send their house-elves into the castle > to do treacherous things? > > smilingator4915 bboyminn: A couple of minor comments- First I want to thank Juli for that quote, I can't believe I missed reading it in the past, or perhaps I read it and it just didn't sink in. Notice that JKR specifically mentions "...ability to appear and disappear WITHIN the castle...". Now sometime, like all people, JKR generalizes in her responses to question, and we as eager reader and discussers take what she says as an absolute all-encompassing all-defining statement of fact. But you will notice that this particular statement only deal with 'popping' about WITHIN the castle. She doesn't imply that Dobby or other elves can cross the boundary or perimeter of the castle grounds. But neither does she say the Elves are limited to 'within' the castle only 'popping'. I'm not sure whether to accept that as an all-defining statement, meaning within the castle, yes, but across the perimeter, no, or if she is simply illustrating how elves are different from wizard and why, but without intending it to be an all-encompassing statement. Also, related to this, and to Smilingator's statement about other creatures like the Phoenix being able to Apparate, I want to say that we need to make a distinction between that which is Apparation and that which is Apparation-LIKE. In a sense, it's the old 'apples and oranges' argument. By some stretch of logic we can say that cars are the same as airplanes, and to a neutral outside third party, a fair argument could be made for that, but to people who are knowledgable and who are able to look beyond the surface, we see that cars are not really all that much like airplanes. My point is that the castle was created by wizards for wizard, and is defended against other dark wizards, and rightly so, since the beginning of time, man has always been his own worst enemy. And while Elves may be very loyal and very willing, they don't seem like they would make very good soldiers. You might be able to send them on a specific task with a specific objective, but it is unlikely they would take any initiative to fullfill the mission beyond a direct straight line approach. So, in general, I don't think there is much need to defend against attack by other creatures. The only creature who seems intelligent enough, as well as independant and free thinking, not to mention trouble making, are the goblins. And right now the goblins are holding all the money in the wizard world, so I don't think wizards are likely to do anything to antagonize them. I guess my point is that while we can ponder somewhat likely alternative plans of attack on the castle, the rare and generally unlikely, and poorly effective alternatives aren't really that much of a thread. It would always be far more effective for a free thinking human to attempt to attack the castle than for a servile elf. Just a thought, though admittedly a somewhat rambling thought. Steve/bboyminn From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Jun 23 18:28:45 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:28:45 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <20050623173906.27805.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > > One of the main reasons I find this argument tiresome is that at the > ripe old age of 15, uncurious-to-the-point-of-braindead-sometimes > Harry Potter is in no position to decide whether Snape deserves > respect or not. He knows next to nothing about the man's life and > actions, except the snippets he's heard from others, and without a > more complete knowledge of Snape I really don't see how a teenager > can make a sweeping assumption about whether or not he "earned" > respect. > > Lupinlore and Phoenixgod will rush in to claim otherwise of course > but I don't find their arguments at all persuasive. > > Magda (cant wait for the next 26 days to be over so we'll stop going Rushing in, as predicted. :-) I suppose it all depends on your idea of what respect should be. Respect, IMO, is not like a badge that you pin on and wear so that someone automatically accords you certain deference irregardless of how you treat them or your actions that they have seen and experienced. It is not a gold star awarded by a great teacher in the sky (although Snape, I'm sure, thinks that's exactly what it should be). It is not a quality that someone can be "competent" or "incompetent" to judge like technical ability or academic achievement. Nor is it something that can be given just because someone else says "so and so is worthy of it" Respect, in other words, is not a quality that adheres to a person like being tall or kindly or snarky or whatever. To say whether Snape is "worthy of respect" is therefore, IMO, non-sensical. Rather respect is something that arises within the context of a given relationship when one person earns the respect of another. And Snape has not earned it from Harry in most of the contexts within which they interact, irregardless of whether he's earned it from someone else in other contexts. And of course it is your right not to be persuaded, Madga. I don't find a lot of people's arguments, statements, prejudices, and rants (and everybody indulges in all four) at all persuasive, particularly where the adults of the Wizarding World are concerned. Being persuaded, like giving respect, is not a quality that adheres mechanically. I do agree that we will have more to chew on come July 16. But that won't last long. After a relatively brief period of novelty we will gradually settle into gridlock again. It probably won't be exactly the same gridlock over exactly the same issues, but the trenches will inevitably get dug once more. Then after Book 7 a true quagmire, characterized by issues and opinions that evolve with glacial slowness, will ensue. All of which is to say, don't get too upset over treading the same ground. This, like it or not, is our life. And with that cheeful and (I'm sure) heart-warming bit of prophecy, I'm done for the day. Lupinlore > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 18:44:46 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius & Remus (replies to many posts) In-Reply-To: <20050623154648.85054.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050623184446.3644.qmail@web32713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131282 Juli wrote: I agree with you 110% Tonks, and after reading all the posts about people who think they may be gay, and I haven't read any argument that may persuade me into thinking otherwise... Shippers are just basing their theories on scenes that are perfectly straight (AFAIK), I mean, they could easily be scenes between me and my best friends, either my best girl-friend (and we're not gay), or my best guy-friend (and we're not a couple). As Tonk says the bonds between two friends is much deeper than a lovers'. Let's consider that Remus and Sirius have known each other for about 20 years, they sure are closed. Remember that Sirius (& co) even became animagi just to keep Remus company while the full moon, if it isn't true friendship I don't know what is. Unless Jo shows us in a more explicit way their "relationship", I'm sticking to the Just Friends Theory. Lynn: I've stayed out of this one as I'm amazed people have even thought of this. I guess it never occurred to me to question who is straight and who is gay. I figured if it was important to the story, we would have been told. Otherwise, who cares? If it was important to the story that Sirius and Remus are a couple, we would/will be told. That said, one thing to remember when considering "The Hug" which seems to mean something to people. This is probably the first time Sirius and Remus have seen each other since James died. At that time, it appears that each suspected the other of being the spy. So, there must have been a difference in their relationship at that point, a coolness and a distance. Now, they see each other knowing who is the true traitor. I saw that more as long lost brothers seeing each other again than anything else. I guess I've always seen James, Sirius and Remus as being more like brothers than just friends. There appeared to be a stronger bond between them. I agree with the comments also that it is sad when just because there is physical contact between people it is automatically seen as sexual. Heaven forbid, as kissing when greeting or leaving someone is European countries is very common. test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From emza at tesco.net Thu Jun 23 19:13:31 2005 From: emza at tesco.net (emza29) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:13:31 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131283 Ah... Mrs Black bugs me every time she yells:- "Filth! Scum! By-products of dirt and vileness! Half-breeds, mutants, freaks, begone from this place! How dare you befoul the house of my fathers - " (p 74 OOTP UK edition) and 'My father put every security measure known to wizardkind on it when he lived here' (p 106 as before) and '...nasty old blood traitor with her brats messing up my mistress's house, oh, my poor mistress, if she knew, if she knew the scum they've let into her house, what would she say to old Kreacher' (p 100 as before) Is Number 12 Grimmauld Place the Black ancestral seat or some other pureblood family's? If it's the house of the Toujours Pur Blacks, how is it the house of Mrs Black's fathers? If it's not the Black hereditament, who did it originally belong to? Do we know anything of Sirius's grandparents on his mother's side? Was Mrs Black perhaps born Miss Black, and when she married, either married another Black family member, or made Mr take her surname? (It does seem to be an unusually matriarchal family.) It's turned into more than one liners I'm afraid. But I'm curious. Emma Curious From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 19:18:35 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:18:35 -0000 Subject: ...questions on transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131284 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fauntine_80" wrote: > Hello all! > > ... > > I have always wondered about the floo network and portkeys at > Hogwarts. We know that portkeys have been able to transport students > to and from Hogwarts (specifically in Dumbledors office) And if > Harry can let his head transport through floo powder ..., which > would lead one to assume that there entire body can travel ... > > Has anyone else thought this peculiar? > > > Again, I hope this has not been over discussed, and I apologise if > it has. > > ~Mo bboyminn: First, no need to apologies for something having been discussed before. I can assure you that, yes indeed, it has been discussed before, but new members join all the time, and we re-approach old topics from a new direction all the time, and sometimes we just rehash old topics. It's not a problem. Floo Network at Hogwarts and elsewhere- We have seen the Floo Network used two ways, Communication and Transportation. There is no reason why those can be mutually exclusive. At Hogwart, as at any boarding school, the movement of students must be restricted. If the Floo Network was wide open, students would be in and out of the castle all the time, it would be chaos. So it seems reasonable that they must be able to apply Communication Only Enchantments to the fireplaces. Certainly, it would be a huge flaw in the story if Harry could have fully traveled to 12 Grimmauld Place from Gryffindor Fireplace or Umbridge's fireplace. If true, he would have just entered the house and searched for Sirius himself. Since he didn't and since we have never seen anyone Floo Travel into or out of a student area of the castle, and since there have been situations where if it could be done, it certainly would have been done, we must reasonable conclude that it can't be done. Simply, if Harry could have traveled to 12 Grimmauld Place in that moment of extreme need and doubt, he would have. Since he didn't, I logically conclude that a majority of fireplaces are restricted to travel within the bounds of the castle (Lupin to Snape's office) and are limited to internal and external communication only use. As far as Dumbledore Flooing and Portkeying into his own office, I like to remind people that as headmaster /Dumbledore controls the protection, and therefore he also controls the exceptions/. He may have personal means of entering and exiting the school that are not available to anyone else. So, I personally have no problem with the fireplaces being limited to Communication Only, and I have no conflict with Dumbledore being able to enter and exit the castle by means that are not available to other people. Steve/bboyminn From swimsalone at hotmail.com Thu Jun 23 19:25:20 2005 From: swimsalone at hotmail.com (swimsalone) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:25:20 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131285 Potioncat: > So a Pureblood who is cunning and ambitious would go to Slytherin. A > Pureblood was not brave, clever or loyal would go to Slytherin. A > cunning, ambitious Muggle-born or Half-blood would go to Hufflepuff. > But you could be an ambitious, cunning Pureblood who has absolutely > no delusions of superiority based on blood and end up in Slytherin. > Swimsalone: These are very interesting thoughts, but: Percy Weasley is as clever, cunning, and ambitious a Pureblood as anyone we've seen in Slythierin...and the sorting hat put him in Griffindor. Given his lack of loyalty to his family, his ability to abandon all ties to his loved ones in pursuit of a successful and profitable career, and his apparent glee at helping in the attempt to wrongfully expel and discredit Harry, wouldn't this indicate that he possesses all of the dreaded qualities associated with Slytherin? Why, then, was he sorted into Griffindor? Surely the potential for betrayal must have been "all right there in his head" for the sorting hat to see. Similarly, Sirius was a brave, loyal, cunning, and clever Pureblood from one of the oldest (and darkest) wizarding families and he was sorted into Griffindor. Puzzling. Again: Padma and Parvati Patil are twins with (presumably) the same parentage and upbringing, and they were sorted into Ravenclaw and Griffindor (which is the most telling IMHO). This seems to indicate that it is not one's lineage or heritage that guides the sorting hat, but rather one's own innate gifts or tallents (with the possible exeption of Percy, noted above). Finally, Tom Riddle was clearly not a Pureblood and he was sorted into Slytherin. To my mind, this further demonstrates that the sorting hat was able to see Riddle's great ambition and desire for power and believed that Slytherin would best be able to help him toward those ends, regardless of his Half-blood status. Swimsalone From Mhochberg at aol.com Thu Jun 23 19:37:36 2005 From: Mhochberg at aol.com (Mhochberg at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:37:36 EDT Subject: Sirius & Remus Message-ID: <1d4.3e8d7950.2fec6980@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131286 Tonks_op writes: "Been biting my tongue on this one, but I can't stand it a minute longer. I suppose that it is just a sign of the times, but I am really sick of people thinking that because two people of the same sex are best friends, and like an old married couple, that they have to be homosexual." Tonks, I have to agree with you. It reminds me of the similar assumptions that a man and a woman cannot be friends, that an adult who has a friendship with a child must be a pedophile, or that two adults of the same sex cannot be close friends with out also being lovers. I just read an article about JM Barry (author of Peter Pan) that mentioned in passing, that there is NO evidence that his relationship with the 4 young brothers was sexual. What's next? McGonagall and Madam Pinch? Tonks_op also wrote: " A lover can leave, a real friend never does." And if you are truly blessed, the lover comes back as a friend. ---Mary From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 19:48:07 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:48:07 -0000 Subject: Apparating -- Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131287 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > > Steve sets out very clearly the possible Apparating glitches ..., > and points out that intention is crucial to (most?) magic ? ... > > ... The intentions of a baby are pretty obvious and unsophisticated: > Want Milk! Need New Nappy! Need But Do Not Want Sleep! Pat Doggy! > Pull Tail! Waaah! > > And they don't seem to be directional ? they require a change of > state but not a change of place. OK, so, back to Godric's Hollow > one more time: is it possible to Apparate while carrying a baby? ... > > Deborah, waiting for the real thing but having fun meanwhile bboyminn: Thank for the acknowledgement. As to your basic question, 'can you apparate while holding a baby?'. I fall back on my original statement, yes it is possible, but it's difficult, dangerous, unreliable, and unpredictable, and therefore very ill-advised. You are right about a babies intentions and desire being very basic. But to some extent you are focusing on /articulated/ intentions and desire, regardless of whether they are internally/mentally or externally/verbally spoken. But magic goes to a much deeper level than 'articulation', especially in the area of desire and to some extent, intent. For example, even a baby who can't speak can still have FEELINGS of desire and intent. For example, a mother is about to Apparate while holding a baby. In that final second just before she turns her intent into action, the baby looks across the room and sees his favorite toy. The baby is not able to verballize, internally or externally, a desire or intent to be with that toy. But the baby is able to feel the desire and intent. The mother envisions herself and her child at the grocery store, the child wants, needs, desires, intends, and pictures itself across the room, on the floor, playing with it's toy. That creates conflicting intent. In a sense the desires of the baby create very very strong intent. Babies are very short on logical reasoning, but they DO know what they want and when they want it, and as they are acting somewhat on instinct, somewhat on primal needs, those wants, needs, desires, and intents can be very powerful. I can't say that I am right, only that this seems like a reasonable and logical analysis of the general concept and of what we see in the books. So, infant, toddler, child, teen, or adult, you can bring another person along when you Apparate, it just not a very safe or wise thing to do. Further, I suspect that Apparation takes a certain amount of concentration. Also, we don't know what parameters must be considered when Apparating. I read someplace where Phases of the Moon had to be take into consideration. Although, I've never been able to validate that. None the less, it serves as a good illustration of how many possible things may need to be considered, and a definite concerted concentrated effort may be needed to accomplish the task. I also suspect that Apparating across the room, as in the Dumbledore/Voldemort duel is somewhat easy. But to apparate a significant distance to a precise location, may not be that easy when you are under a great deal of stress. Steve/bboyminn From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 23 20:06:30 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:06:30 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131288 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > To expand, I would say that in Potion making (that is his technical > knowledge about potions and how to prepare them) Snape has largely > earned Harry's respect. > Now, in Occlumency Snape did not earn Harry's respect, thus leading to disaster. You could say, I suppose, that Snape acts no differently in Occlumency than he does in potions, but Harry doesn't have the same physical and mental reaction to potions, either. A different situation, then, and respect in one area does not automatically carry over into another. Neither does Snape earn Harry's respect in most other areas -- for instance with regard to his policies about enforcing school rules. Pippin: Well, that is just the point, isn't it? Harry never twigged to the fact that he was in just much danger from not respecting Snape's authority in Occlumency as he would have been in if he didn't respect Snape's authority in potions, (where, after the first lesson, he has never failed to address Snape properly) and for the same reason -- he has neither the knowledge nor the experience to judge for himself what is dangerous. The same goes for the school rules. In the areas where Snape has authority over Harry, Snape has that knowledge and experience, and it should be respected. I think that is what the adults are trying to get across when they insist on 'Professor' Snape. I do think that Amanda has a good point, and that Snape's insistence just at that time, on being called 'sir' has something to do with his eyes being narrow and then slitted-- Snape wants to distract Harry from the forbidden subject of how Dumbledore knows what he knows about Voldemort, not a safe subject whether Snape is the spy or someone else is. Pippin From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 20:27:09 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:27:09 -0000 Subject: questions on transportation In-Reply-To: <20050622154902.55006.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131289 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me wrote: > > > > Mo: > > Oops, I'm sorry, I didn't make my question clearer. > The reason I find it odd is because Sirius says he > broke into someone's house to use their fireplace. > That would essentially mean, that any wizard could use > any floo fireplace and get into Hogwarts without any > security measures. ... > > ~Mo bboyminn: I have another response elsewhere in this thread that expands on what I'm going to say here. Sirius may have broken into a house with a Floo fireplace, and that fireplace may allow travel and communication, but that doesn't mean the Hogwarts fireplaces have to allow BOTH travel and communication. I suspect the Hogwarts (especially student) fireplaces are limited by Communication Only Charms/Spells. So while Sirius could get out of his fireplace, again that doesn't mean he could get into the Hogwarts fireplace. Given the overall flow of the stories, it seems reasonable that most Hogwarts fires are restricted to Communication Only even though no one flat-out says it. Steve/bboyminn From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 20:30:08 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:30:08 -0000 Subject: 1000 Galleon Reward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131290 tyler maroney wrote: Regarding the 1000 Galleon Reward offered for the capture of any of the escaped DEs, I had a thought. JKR said that Harry will leave Privet Drive early in the summer for a "pleasant" reason. What if its to collect the reward money? Thoughts anyone? Karen: but my gut reaction was that the reward would be 9000 galleons and that the adults would decline to share it, although Lupin may be persuaded to take his share due to his personal circumstances. I also think that Harry and Hermione will decline, as neither of them are needy financially. Bookworm: It all depends on the wording of whatever legal document the Ministry wrote. Many times a reward offered is split between all the people who provided information; other times each person gets the total amount offered. If, as Karen suggests, each person gets 1000 galleons, then each person would have to claim it for themselves. For example, if Harry declined his share, his 1000 galleons would stay with the Ministry - it wouldn't be divided among the others. If he wants Ron, Ginny, Neville, etc. to split it, Harry will have to claim his share then divide it himself. So the total amount received would be either G1000 each, or G1000 divided by the number of claims. Either way, no one would be sharing G9000. Since I think Harry would either not claim his share or give it away (like the Tournament winnings), I don't think that will be the "pleasant reason" he leaves Privet Drive early. Just MHO, of course. ;-) Ravenclaw Bookworm From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 23 20:35:20 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:35:20 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131291 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amis917" wrote: > When reading OOTP, I question this one each time.. > > (Aunt Petunia's just heard the howler) "'What is this?' Uncle Vernon > said hoarsely. 'What -- I don't -- Petunia?'" > I'm not sure why he's so confused. When they took Harry in, was he > not included in all of the details? The message clearly makes sense > to Petunia, because she made Harry stay. I'm just interested in > knowing what actually happened when Harry was taken in by the > Dursleys. My personal theory on this is the following (and it's pure speculation): Petunia is a witch, but an untrained one. She received a letter to Hogwarts, but being a straight-laced little girl and convinced her parents would not approve, she declined to go. A couple of (or however many) years later her little sister also got the same letter. She accepted. Her parents were delighted to have "a witch in the family". Petunia, astonished and upset by her parents obvious delight made a point of strongly disapproving and making a totally 'normal' life for herself, even down to marrying the most straight-laced and narrow-minded man she could get her hands on. At the beginning of PS and owl is seen in Privet Drive, just after Vernon had left for work. This was from Dumbledore telling her that her nephew was now an orphan and needed to stay in her home in order to receive the protection of living where his Mother's blood resided. Anticipating her almost inevitable refusal, he says he'll tell Vernon that she is a witch if she says "No" and asks how her husband would react to the news that he is married to a witch. I believe that Harry was left on the doorstep so that his arrival would be 'a complete surprise' to them both and Petunia could insist that they couldn't possibly stick a baby in an orphanage because what would the neighbours think? I think "Remember my last" is a sharp reminder that Vernon is even less likey to take the news that his wife is a witch well, and Veron is totally baffled as he has no idea that Petunia has had previous correspondance with "his sort" other than the original note that came with baby Harry on the doorstep, which probably said little more than his parents were dead and he was in need of a home. JMHO Karen From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 20:59:08 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:59:08 -0000 Subject: Which School? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131292 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "uscsmarine4" wrote: > ... > I was re-reading Goblet of Fire and noted that the goblet has to > have the name and school of everyone who wishes to participate. ... > JKR never says what school Harry was entered under. ... What, if any, > significance is this obvious failure to say what school he was entered > under. bboyminn: Well, first the fourth school isn't mentioned by name because there is no fourth school; it can't have a name because it doesn't exit. The Goblet, if I recall correctly was hoodwinking into forgetting there were only three school. So even if Harry entry was missing a school name, he would have still been the only candidate his his catagory, and that catagory would have defaulted to 'Other'. In a sense, the Goblet sorts the names into catagories, one catagory for each named school, and one unnamed catagory. Then it picks the best from the list of names in those catagories. Harry was in a 'class' by himself, so of course he was picked. Also, if Harry's name was entered in this format - Harry Potter Then 'Harry' become the name of the champion, and 'Potter' becomes the name of the school. Further, the fourth school could have been ".", or " " or some other nondescript punctuation. The point is, since the Goblet is confused, it doesn't matter what the fourth school is, whether it's 'blank' or 'Potter' or period ('.'), just as long as it's different from the others, and by being different, creates a fourth catagory. Did that make sense? Steve/bboyminn From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Thu Jun 23 20:09:46 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:09:46 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131293 Swimsalone wrote: > These are very interesting thoughts, but: Percy Weasley is as clever, > cunning, and ambitious a Pureblood as anyone we've seen in > Slythierin...and the sorting hat put him in Griffindor. This seems to indicate that it is not one's lineage or heritage that guides the sorting hat, but rather one's own innate gifts or tallents (with the possible exeption of Percy, noted above). > > Finally, Tom Riddle was clearly not a Pureblood and he was sorted > into Slytherin. To my mind, this further demonstrates that the > sorting hat was able to see Riddle's great ambition and desire for > power and believed that Slytherin would best be able to help him > toward those ends, regardless of his Half-blood status. Rachael: I've always assumed that it's really not one's gifts or talents, but rather where he/she wants to be. Or, if it's someone that has no knowledge or preconception about the houses, then it would be which traits they value most (not necessarily which traits they have strongly). That would work with Percy (since ambitiion seems to be his strongest trait) and Wormtail (who really doesn't show much courage) because they both probably wanted to be in Gryffindor. Percy likely because Bill and Charlie and both his parents were in Gryffindor. Sirius didn't agree with his family's views, so probably thought "Not Slytherin" like Harry; Parvati and Padma are different people, so they value different things and may have even just wanted space from each other; Riddle/Voldemort was a descendent of Slytherin (and may have known that), was ambitious, and probably wanted to be sorted there. Rachael From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 21:21:21 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius & Remus (replies to many posts) In-Reply-To: <20050623154648.85054.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050623212121.61796.qmail@web54705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131294 No, he doesn?t. I have thought this through. If Sirius had married Sirius was too busy being a big rebel to get married. When Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, just the best friend. At that point it looked as if the Potters would have to go into hiding so obviously they could not do the big christening thing and invite lots of people. Sirius is the only one, unfortunately. I have got to be careful what I say there, haven?t I?" Juli My reply: Tis interesting she is watching her tongue on that end. I mean what does she have to hide now? Sirius is dead..did he eventually marry? Was their a girl involved...or maybe my theory that Remus is the married one will end up panning out. I still say that Remus and Tonks are married. Yes, I know there is an age difference. But why else would she just be sitting around there all the time. She was there quite a bit more than any other Order member. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vloe at dallasnews.com Thu Jun 23 21:27:37 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (firebird) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:27:37 -0000 Subject: Calling all detectives/Re: New Droobles anagram? A code? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131295 OK, I have no idea what this might mean in terms of the narrative, but the first thing that jummped out at me was phrase "muggle blood." Once I saw it, I couldn't let it go. Here's just one of the possibilities that emerged when I started there: Muggle blood bribes towns (But again, don't ask me to build a coherent case for what it might mean.) firebird From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jun 23 21:31:05 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:31:05 -0000 Subject: Calling all detectives/Re: New Droobles anagram? A code? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131296 Firebird wrote: > (But again, don't ask me to build a coherent case for what it might > mean.) Potioncat: Sorry. I must do this, I can't help myself. And I don't know who first posted this: Draco Malfoy = Lord of a YMCA. From mich at ntl.sympatico.ca Thu Jun 23 20:06:35 2005 From: mich at ntl.sympatico.ca (Mich Verrier) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:06:35 -0400 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is?/ Hagrid a Halfling. References: Message-ID: <00ee01c5782f$0f3e8a00$5259e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> No: HPFGUIDX 131297 Mich Verrier Wrote: The only person who I know who used the term Halfling was J. R. R. Tolkien and Tolkien's word was used to discribe the Hobbits. I don't know whether it is even spelled that way, I think that it might be spelled differently and pronounced differently as well, and the way I think it might be spelled and pronounced is Haffling. >From Mich Verrier. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 21:51:24 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:51:24 -0000 Subject: 1000 Galleon Reward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131298 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rbookworm46" wrote: > tyler maroney wrote: > Regarding the 1000 Galleon Reward offered for the > capture of any of the escaped DEs, I had a thought. > JKR said that Harry will leave Privet Drive early in > the summer for a "pleasant" reason. What if its to > collect the reward money? Thoughts anyone? > Karen: > but my gut reaction was that the reward would be 9000 > galleons and that the adults would decline to share it, although > Lupin may be persuaded to take his share .... > > Bookworm: > It all depends on the wording of whatever legal document the > Ministry wrote. Many times a reward offered is split between all > the people who provided information; other times each person gets > the total amount offered. > > If, as Karen suggests, each person gets 1000 galleons, > > Ravenclaw Bookworm bboyminn: I don't think the reward is G1,000 to each person who helped capture the escaped Death Eaters, it's G1,000 per Death Eater captured. A agree, what ever the reward is, it's divided among the qualifying participants. So, each ESCAPED Death Eater has a G1,000 reward on his/her head. But the is only for the ESCAPED Death Eater. There would be no reward for people like Lucius Malfoy. Well, that's not completely true, the Minitry might create a separate independant reward, but that is unrelated to the Escaped DE's. Now all we have to do is sort out how many of those capture were on the poster of escaped DE's and multiply that by G1,000. As far as who gets the money, I'm inclined to think that Auror, who in a sense are professional policemen (like FBI) aren't allowed to accept rewards. I further think all the adults not working for the Ministry would decline. But, when the rewards are divided among the select DA members, Harry will talk everyone into kicking back a share so that Lupin gets a cut. Although, Moody could qualify for a share of the reward, I think as an ex-Auror, he would refuse on general principle. So, ((how many escapees captured) X G1,000) divided by (the participating DA member plus Lupin). So, how much is that? Steve/bboyminn Quick and easy money conversion G1:?5:$7.5 From arolls at igc.org Thu Jun 23 19:00:36 2005 From: arolls at igc.org (algnash) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:00:36 -0000 Subject: Calling All Detectives/ Re: New Droobles Anagram? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131299 > Catjaneway wrote: > > for "Droobles best blowing gum" I went looking for another, > > and found this: > > Dig D.L. bones below Urg's tomb > > D.L. being short for Dark Lord, and Urg being a goblin, > > perhaps Urg the Unclean mentioned in GoF (p618 US). > > smilingator4915: > In any event, I came up with "Nobles, dig below Urg's tomb". Oh no! More anagrams! GOBLINS MTG. BELOW OUR BEDS (further to my subterranean Death Eater Goblin rally theory) MUGGLES TOWN BLOOD BRIBES (Corruption in the MoM!) UMBRIDGES STOLEN BOWL BOG (MoM secrets hidden in Dolores's pensieve lost on the moors?) -Algnash (who is having a slow day at work...) From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 23 22:01:28 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:01:28 -0000 Subject: Voldemort: Born or Made Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: Tonks: > Then we have Harry. Harry is an example of someone like the other > two who has somehow (??) managed to rise above it all. And the > mystery is just how has he been able to do that? I think that the > books are about many things, and one of them is the developing the > ability to overcome the evil done to us by other so that we do not > give it back to the world. Geoff: I am reminded firstly of the old couplet: "Two men looked out from prison bars, One saw mud and one saw stars." It has also been said that an optimist sees a glass as half-full, a pessimist as half-empty. Much hinges on a person's attitude of mind. People who are faced with difficulties and problems such as illness, misfortune or being treated badly by others - as Harry,Tom and Snape for example - can react in two ways. They can let it take over their lives, they can brood over injuries, real or imagined, and complain to all who will listen about their bad luck and wallow in it or they can set their sights on rising above it and defeating it rather than the converse. Harry has had to adopt the latter course in order to stay positive - not necessarily consciously but because he possesses that kind of temperament. As ever, Dumbledore's comment on choices comes back into play. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 22:06:33 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:06:33 -0000 Subject: Gothic House of Black and a bit of Remus/Sirius(wasRe: Which "One liners"...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131301 >>Emma: >Is Number 12 Grimmauld Place the Black ancestral seat or some other pureblood family's? If it's the house of the Toujours Pur Blacks, how is it the house of Mrs Black's fathers? If it's not the Black hereditament, who did it originally belong to? Do we know anything of Sirius's grandparents on his mother's side? Was Mrs Black perhaps born Miss Black, and when she married, either married another Black family member, or made Mr take her surname? (It does seem to be an unusually matriarchal family.)< Betsy Hp: Those quotes raised an eye-brow for me too. But if you think about how much of a Gothic tale the whole House of Black reads like, it fits into the genre to have the Black family a little interrelated (a common trait among those seeking genetic purity). I feel that if Mr. and Mrs. Black were actually brother and sister, there'd have been some sort of commentary about it. But they could well have been cousins. So I think it *was* Miss Black marrying her cousin, Mr. Black. And it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Miss Black came from the main branch of the family and so grew up in the house she now hangs in. As to the Blacks being matriarchal - well it's a common theme of JKR's to have the women folk be far stronger than the men. (I can't think of a single married couple where the wife doesn't reign supreme. The Malfoys are an unknown at this point.) However, Mrs. Black makes such a thing about "her fathers" that I think her daddy (and you just *know* Mrs. Black was Daddy's little princess) had been the family ruler. I think she tried to shape her sons into miniture versions of her father (or grandfather) and Sirius rebelled. Tying this into the whole Sirius/Remus debate, Marozi brought this up in post # 131262: "The first two books have mystery elements but are basically coming-of-age adventure stories, but POA is really a Gothic Mystery, and the Deep Dark Secret at the heart of the plot is the connection between Lupin and Sirius. The teasing way in which this is revealed practically seethes with the sort of suppressed romantic energy you find in those types of novels; for example, Lupin dropping his briefcase at the mention of Sirius's name is like something out of Wilkie Collins." Betsy Hp: To continue with the Gothic theme, having Remus playing the role of innocent ingenue to Sirius' black prince from the corrupt family fits in well, to my mind. Especially with the guarded secret of Remus' non-pure status. If Sirius was looking for a relationship to shock his folks with, Remus would be perfect on so many levels. And then there's Remus' attempt to save Sirius from his family only to have Sirius die in the end. Killed by his cousin, no less. Gosh, their story could be a book in and of itself! Betsy Hp From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 23 22:08:03 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:08:03 -0000 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is?/ Hagrid a Halfling. In-Reply-To: <00ee01c5782f$0f3e8a00$5259e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mich Verrier" wrote: Mich Verrier: > The only person who I know who used the term Halfling was > J. R. R. Tolkien and Tolkien's word was used to discribe > the Hobbits. I don't know whether it is even spelled that > way, I think that it might be spelled differently and > pronounced differently as well, and the way I think it > might be spelled and pronounced is Haffling. Geoff: You are quite right. "Hobbit" was the term used by the hobbits themselves while the men of Gondor used the term "halfling" and the Rohirrim on occasion used "holbytla". Hagrid definitely does not qualify as a halfling. He wouldn't get through the front door of the house. ;-) From k.coble at comcast.net Thu Jun 23 16:02:29 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:02:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131303 On Jun 23, 2005, at 10:57 AM, potioncat wrote: > Alla: > > They work well as friends, but they work for me at least even better > > as lovers and that can offer so many interesting interpretations of > > the past. > > > Potioncat: > I'll start off with apologies if I say something patronizing, or rude, > I don't mean to. (If I say something just plain stupid, that's par for > the course.) > > Given that there is enough canon support for the idea that that Sirius > K: I just don't see it. I think it is a lot of people reading into Canon what isn't there. Two people of the same gender CAN be and often ARE very good friends without having the wacka-wacka guitar playing in the background. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drliss at comcast.net Wed Jun 22 19:53:40 2005 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:53:40 +0000 Subject: Sirius & Remus Message-ID: <062220051953.24748.42B9C1C30008DBBA000060AC22070029539C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131304 Juli: I've read everywhere that people think that Remus and Sirius are (were) a couple, I've re-read all the books looking for hints at this, but I have found none. Am I missing something, or is this just fanfic? To me both of them are straight, they are best friends, sure, but does it mean they're lovers? The only time I remember they hugged is at the Shrieking Shack, but come on, they haven't seen each other for 12 years, I think they are allowed to Hug. Is it that in the UK men *can't* hug? or something else? Lissa now: Heh. Not that this is my favorite subject or anything.... There is no canon evidence, one way or the other, that Sirius and Remus are straight or gay. You can argue it both ways, but absolutely no evidence. That said... I'm someone who ships the two of them together and thinks that it COULD have happened, unless JKR gives us evidence in the next book. And it has nothing- absolutely nothing- to do with the fact they hugged. The hug in the Shrieking Shack was a lot of things: it was absolution. It was acceptance. It was friendship. It was apology. It was comfort for both parties. It was brotherhood. It was welcome. It was relief. It was trust. It was probably one of the most powerful moments in the books. But it was not intended as the hug of a lover, and most people who put them together agree with that statement. But just because that was not the hug of a lover- and means nothing about that side of their relationship- does not discount that they could have been lovers at some point in time, or became lovers after Sirius escaped Azkaban. The reason I ship Sirius and Remus together isn't all that easy to explain. I can point you to little clues, like the fact that Remus lives with Sirius in OotP, or that they gave Harry a joint Christmas present. But little clues are easily- and reasonably- refuted. Remus may have lived with Sirius in OotP because he knew Sirius needed the support of a friend (he did seem to have a place to live), and he and Sirius gave a joint gift because it was expensive and Remus didn't have much money and Sirius didn't have much freedom. So giving you lots of little clues and hints is just silly- especially since, as I said in the beginning, none of these points conclusively to a romantic relationship. But they're also all plausable indications of a romantic relationship. It's very confusing, especially when you consider a truly good relationship usually has some basis in friendship. What does it for me is the way they are written, particularly in OotP. (Their interaction in PoA was so emotionally charged anyway, I didn't really start thinking it until I saw them together in OotP.) The way Remus opens up to Sirius (evidenced by the way Sirius says "you should hear Remus talk about her!" to Harry), and the way Sirius calms down for Remus when he won't for anyone else- not even Harry or Dumbledore. To me, they act like a couple that's comfortable and sure in themselves, and doesn't feel the need to flaunt their coupledom. They're both very reserved men anyway- Sirius can't even manage a proper hug with Harry, and Remus is... well, Remus. (Does this need more explanation? ;) ) But that was how I read it. And on top of it, JKR does not write gooey, physically affectionate couples. Molly and Arthur barely touch each other in public, and we haven't seen too many kisses on screen. It's not the physical contact that makes people think they were lovers, it's the emotional interaction. There are a lot of arguments for or against it that, quite honestly, sound very silly when you pick them apart. You could argue that JKR wouldn't put a homosexual couple in a kid's book (because, y'know, it's so much more disturbing than killing a 17 year old kid or having Umbridge torture Harry with her quill). You could argue that the hug in the Shack DID mean they were lovers (and you KNOW that means something's going on with Harry and Molly, too, because they hugged! ;) ) I could dredge up endless examples, being a veteran of this particular ship war at this point. But the truth is... we don't know, and odds are very, very good it's not important to the plot. My instinct tells me JKR wrote them as friends, but she couldn't have not known how some things would be taken- things that have no real influence on the plot- and perhaps she's just amused at the ambiguity. But unless Harry and Remus have it out over Remus's relationship with Sirius, I have a feeling the love lives of Remus Lupin and Sirius Black have very little to do with the story of Harry Potter. So in answer to your question... no one knows for sure if it's a canon thing or not, but you can definitely read it either way at this point. Lissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 22:54:46 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:54:46 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131305 >>Alla: >...this person (hypothetical good Slytherin) should reject Slytherin's "purebloodism" and absolutely hold on to Slytherin strengths, but the problem is that so far to me - the "purebloodism" , NOT Slytherins's strengths is what defines Slytherin House. >As you probably know, I share POV that in "potterverse" ideological lines are drawn quite clearly and the site of "purebloods are better than anybody else" is not the one to be on, IMO. >Therefore I don't see anything wrong in admitting by "good Slytherins" that their thinking is flawed on so many levels.< Betsy Hp: Okay, make sure you're sitting down, because I actually agree with you. A little bit anyway . Because I *do* agree that the interest in pure-blood is the negative aspect of Slytherin house that *must* be changed in order for Hogwarts to work as one. It's that negative ideology that Voldemort played on to gather his Death Eaters and so it falls under the "Voldemort's Shadow" that I see as darkening Slytherin house. However, I don't think pure-blood is the only ideology of Slytherin house, and I doubt it's even the prevailing ideology. (We know of at least two half-bloods, Harry and Tom, who were wooed by house Slytherin. And, with the Weasley that never happened, JKR tells us that a girl born of a Squib and a Muggle would have been sorted into Slytherin and done quite well there.) But, more than any other house, Slytherin has an unhealthy interest in blood. That interest does need to be changed. That's why I think the "good Slytherin" needs to be a very strong Slytherin, someone the entire house looks to. An outsider could never bring about the kind of change Slytherin needs to experience. A Luna type character, rejected by their house, would never work, IMO. But someone who can say, "look this is what's cool about being a Slytherin, this other bit has to go, was never really us in the first place" could well do the job I think is required and bring Slytherin back into the Hogwarts fold. >>Alla: >The reason why I think that "purebloodism" IS Slytherin's house ideology is because we have not seen ANY Slytherin yet (in the younger generation at least) who does not share such ideology. >Now, you may argue that we have not seen any Slytherins but Draco and his cronies sharing this ideology either, but is the absence of the evidence equals evidence to the contrary?< Betsy Hp: No, it's evidence of Harry's blinders when it comes to that particular house. He's decided they're all bad, so they're all bad and none of them are worth listening to. In many ways I think the appearence of the "good Slytherin" will come at a maturing of Harry, a willingness on his part to stop seeing the world in such uncompromising black and white. >>Alla: >I am not so sure. Since JKR does not have book space to develop every secondary character, I create an impression of Slytherin House based on representatives of Slytherin house I read about so far and if you don't know yet, they REALLY don't appeal to me that much. :-)< Betsy Hp: Of course they don't. Because they don't appeal to *Harry* that much. Until Luna came along the books implied that all Ravenclaws were book-loving, library-living, nerds. Until we met Cedric all Hufflepuffs seemed like rule-following, stay-with-the-herd, lemmings. And until we meet the "good Slytherin" all Slytherins appear to be rasicist little facists, hiss worthy at age eleven. The only house that didn't fall immediately into a stereotype was Gryffindor, but that was because Harry met Gryffindors right off the bat. Slytherin had the dubious honor of being stereotyped right from the very beginning. (And completely incorrectly we quickly learned, though Harry didn't: not all evil wizards came from Slytherin; Draco is many things, but he's certainly not the wizarding equivelent to Dudley.) I imagine the de-stereotyping of Slytherin will come about with the biggest bang. And just to throw a monkey wrench into the entire works .... In the only instances witnessed by the reader where a wizard openly and without a mask singles out and attacks a muggle, the perpetrator was a Gryffindor. Hagrid attacked Dudley in PS/SS and the twins attacked Dudley in CoS. Slytherin, by no means, has the corner on wizarding cruelty. Betsy Hp From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 23:17:08 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <006901c577a7$d0f3a780$e858aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: <20050623231708.44687.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131306 --- Amanda Geist wrote: > And I maintain that Snape is making these corrections deliberately, > to control the conversation, for reasons that have nothing to do > with Harry personally and everything to do with the fact that > Voldemort has a window > into Harry's mind.... > > So--Snape redirects the conversations with Harry at key points, > using an old familiar mechanism, to (a) keep Harry from becoming > excited about an answer, as the excitement may attract Voldemort's > attention "inside" Harry, and therefore basically telling > Voldemort much about what we know of his > movements and motives; and (b) to keep the conversation with Harry > on a familiar, standard, level of interaction to avoid > difficulties with Snape's own Occlumency later. I don't disagree with Amanda's statements but I would like to add that after the initial order to "address me as Sir" at the start of lesson one, the later insistences come just when Harry is asking questions that Snape might not be able to answer. It's an interjection that buys Snape some time to think of an alternative to the truth and reinforces Harry's anti-Snape feeling. Magda ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From eighthweasley at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 21:54:09 2005 From: eighthweasley at gmail.com (The Eighth Weasley) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:54:09 -0700 Subject: House Elf question? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6c20bff805062314547c0b3d09@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131307 Brent wrote: > Who or what cleans the student clothing if the elves can't even touch it without being freed? Hermione put elf hats and socks out and they would not even clean the common room anymore so I can't see them going to get them to be cleaned. It is never mentioned that Harry or anyone else cleans them while at school that I remember. Mrs. Weasley cleans them a couple times but not while at school. They don't go home for months. Unless they use spells to clean them. But what about the younger students like the 1st years. Unless that is a prefects job. < Eighth writes: "Please note that all students' clothes must carry name tags." That's on Harry's Hogwarts letter. I believe that this labeling of the clothes as someone else's prevents the house elves from being freed whenever they pick up the laundry. I think the name tags are more than to just prevent mixups of clothes; they're to prevent house-elves from accidentally being freed. Another option is something I've seen in a fanfic, where a house-elf was handling laundry with a set of tongs. *g* Eighth From shalimar07 at aol.com Thu Jun 23 21:55:22 2005 From: shalimar07 at aol.com (mumweasley7) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:55:22 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131308 Petunia to Harry: Okay, I'm going to tell you what was in the letter Dumbledore wrote to us when he left you. Dumbledore to Harry: Harry, Here's the 'Reader's Digest' version of what's been going on. Harry to Uncle Vernon: Would you like a 'tic tac'? For all the times he gets in Harry's face and sprays him with spit. Harry to Hermione: I don't have long to live, so either give me the answers or do my homework for me. Harry to Ron: Are you ever going to develop a backbone? (no disrespect..I love Ron!) Snape to Harry: It doesn't matter if we like or don't like each other, we're going to have to work together to defeat LV. Ron to Hermione: Quietly.."It's like I'm seeing you for the first time Hermoine. You're beautiful." Harry to Neville: Neville, let's go see Professor Flitwick about removing that memory charm. Shalimar From prncssme at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 23:44:25 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:44:25 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131309 Lupinlore said: > Respect, IMO, is not like a badge > that you pin on and wear so that someone automatically accords you > certain deference irregardless of how you treat them or your actions > that they have seen and experienced. It is not a gold star awarded > by a great teacher in the sky (although Snape, I'm sure, thinks > that's exactly what it should be). It is not a quality that someone > can be "competent" or "incompetent" to judge like technical ability > or academic achievement. Nor is it something that can be given just > because someone else says "so and so is worthy of it" Respect, in > other words, is not a quality that adheres to a person like being > tall or kindly or snarky or whatever. Now Princess Sara says: I agree with your definition to a point. When I interact with another adult in an informal setting, I don't expect that person to automatically respect me. However, as a teacher, when I work with a student, I do expect and sometimes need to demand that respect. The relationship between Harry and Snape is that of teacher/student (or father figure/son, depending on where your convictions lie ;o)) not of adult aquaintances. Snape is in a position of authority and that demands respect, whether Harry likes the man and his methods or not. I would never tolerate my students addressing me as "Sara" or any other familiar nickname in a school setting. Essentially, using an informal address in a formal situation (say, like school) is extremely rude. However, many people feel that the type of mandatory respect for people like doctors, teachers, and elders is old fashioned. But really, good manners never go out of style. Snape may be being rude and/or ignoring the rules he is trying to impose on Harry, but he is still Harry's teacher AND elder. Perhaps if Harry had complied (did he comply? I can't remember and I'm not to that point in my pre-HBP re-read yet), Snape may have respected his questions and curiousity. - Princess Sara From eighthweasley at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 21:58:18 2005 From: eighthweasley at gmail.com (The Eighth Weasley) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:58:18 -0700 Subject: ...questions on transportation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6c20bff80506231458529b8bc8@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131310 Steve (bboyminn) wrote: > Certainly, it would be a huge flaw in the story if Harry could have fully traveled to 12 Grimmauld Place from Gryffindor Fireplace or Umbridge's fireplace. If true, he would have just entered the house and searched for Sirius himself. Since he didn't and since we have never seen anyone Floo Travel into or out of a student area of the castle, and since there have been situations where if it could be done, it certainly would have been done, we must reasonable conclude that it can't be done. < Eighth writes: It's also quite possible that Harry was following inhibitions, that his own hesitancy was preventing him from doing more than he thought was allowed. Remember that when he tells Sirius and Remus that Snape stopped his Occlumency lessons, Sirius stands up and says, "I'm coming over right now," and whenever I envision that scene, Sirius is moving towards the fireplace as if he's going to Floo in. He can certainly stick his head in the fireplace; perhaps the only reason he didn't try to actually visit Harry before was for an easier escape? Could that be the same reason why Harry didn't go physically in search of Sirius? Or maybe he didn't know he *could* use the Floo to get there. Sorry if that's a little scattered. Eighth From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Fri Jun 24 00:09:25 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:09:25 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42BB4F35.2040506@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131311 potioncat wrote: > I'll start off with apologies if I say something patronizing, or rude, > I don't mean to. (If I say something just plain stupid, that's par for > the course.) > > Given that there is enough canon support for the idea that that Sirius > and Remus are partners, this line from James has a new twist: "Well, > it's more the fact that he *exists*, if you know what I mean..." > > That's the same excuse used by gay bashers after beating someone up for > being different. > Oooh, that's a very clever point. Not that I believe JKR will go there for a second, but it's a very good theory. Imagine, how it would contribute to Sirius' hate of Snape - knowing how his dearest friend James hates gays, feeling his own inclinations towards Remus, being ashamed of them, being horrified that James would realise he is one of "them". Yes, he wouldn't miss an opportunity to torture Snape, the "dirty pervert". Before anyone screams how it does not make a psychological sense - it makes a perfect sense to me. During my childhood, the children who led an antisemitic campaigns, often had their own Jewish grandma or grandpa to hide. Irene From llamadroid at hotmail.com Thu Jun 23 22:54:31 2005 From: llamadroid at hotmail.com (Liane) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:54:31 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration classes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131312 Excuse me if this question has been asked before (maybe you can point me to the right posts) but I am currently on my pre-HBP re-read and have been thinking about the classes. I'm really interested in the classes and the different types of magic JKR decided to choose as core subjects. There seems to be a lot of canon on the other classes and what the students actually learn, but not for transfiguration. The classes seem to be used mainly for McGonagall to give out announcements, and any magic that is performed (except her animagus transformation) seem to be mentioned in passing only. So, I was just wondering if I could hear some people's theories about Transfiguration, and how it actually works. I mean, are there wand movements or incantations? "Liane" From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 23 23:12:20 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:12:20 -0000 Subject: Which School? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131313 "uscsmarine4" wrote: > > ...I was re-reading Goblet of Fire and noted that the goblet > > has to have the name and school of everyone who wishes to > > participate. ... JKR never says what school Harry was entered > > under. > bboyminn: > Well, first the fourth school isn't mentioned by name because > there is no fourth school; it can't have a name because it > doesn't exist. The Goblet, if I recall correctly was hoodwinking > into forgetting there were only three schools. Pat: You're both right. GOF pg 676 Scholastic HC, BC Jr. says: "Who put your name in the Goblet of Fire, under the name of a different school? I did." But the Goblet had to me made to forget that it is the TRIwizard tournament, and be hoodwinked into accepting a fourth name. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 00:27:33 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Transfiguration classes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050624002733.68943.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131314 --- Liane wrote: ...edited... > So, I was just wondering if I could hear some > people's theories about > Transfiguration, and how it actually works. I mean, > are there wand > movements or incantations? > Juli: I believe transfiguration is as much magic as everything else. They do use their wands: in PS/SS in the first lesson they learn how to transform a Pin or something, a beetle into something, then in PoA they have to transform a turtle into a tea pot... there are many examples of using a wand in transfiguration, as for actually saying incantations I don't remember any, but of course I may be mistaken. >From a muggle point of view, transfiguration to me is just a chemical and physical reaction in order to rearrange molecules and turn them into something else. Considering pretty much everything is made on Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen, with a *small* change in the structure you could turn a piece of Coal into a Diamond. So I guess that the wizards have this ability, to change the physical and chemical structure on any given object. Juli - only 22 days to go Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From llamadroid at hotmail.com Fri Jun 24 00:17:04 2005 From: llamadroid at hotmail.com (Liane) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:17:04 -0000 Subject: Calling All Detectives/ Re: New Droobles Anagram? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131315 "algnash" wrote: > Oh no! More anagrams! > MUGGLES TOWN BLOOD BRIBES > (Corruption in the MoM!) > > UMBRIDGES STOLEN BOWL BOG > (MoM secrets hidden in Dolores's pensieve lost on the moors?) Sorry this is a late reply, but I've been away and am trying to catch up!! If you're looking for corruption in the wizarding world, mugglenet.com has this as the Droobles anagram... Gold bribe below St. Mungos (Well Alice has been in the hospital for a long time, giving her the inside scoop maybe?!!) Sorry I couldn't come up with my own anagram, I'm bad at stuff like that! Liane From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Jun 24 00:39:18 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:39:18 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131316 > Now Princess Sara says: > > I agree with your definition to a point. When I interact with another adult in an informal > setting, I don't expect that person to automatically respect me. However, as a teacher, > when I work with a student, I do expect and sometimes need to demand that respect. The > relationship between Harry and Snape is that of teacher/student not of adult aquaintances. Snape is in a > position of authority and that demands respect, whether Harry likes the man and his > methods or not. There is a difference between respecting the man and the office. The man deserves the personal respect he has earned. The position Snape holds demands respect because there is a default position of respect from a student to a teacher as a result of that teacher's authority and knowledge. But a teacher can also use up that respect by misusing his power as I think Snape does. He insults students, blatently favors his own house through unequal punishments, sabatoges lessons (which he does to Harry at least one time in OOTP), and otherwise acts in a manner unbefiting a person in his position. To be honest, I think Harry gives *more* respect to Snape than the man deserves. Sara, how much respect would you honestly think you deserve from your students if you acted like Snape does in the classroom? Yes, a student is obligated to respect a teacher, but by the same token a teacher is obligated to be someone worthy of being respected. Of course that could be my wacky ethics and desire to be a good teacher talking :) I would never tolerate my students addressing me as "Sara" or any other > familiar nickname in a school setting. Essentially, using an informal address in a formal > situation (say, like school) is extremely rude. But there isn't any evidence that Harry is being disrespectful directly to Snape inside the classroom! No, he doesn't use sir fifty times a sentence, but he does what he's told in classroom and his potions never seem to be all that much off the mark. It seems to me that he is meeting the respect requirements both of us would demand of our own students. I suppose that if your are judging respect by acting in a bootlicking servile fashion, someone like Draco is your model, but I would think less of Harry if he acted the same way. And Harry uses an informal address to a third party when Snape isn't around. I still want to know why Molly and DD get their knickers in a twist over that. As far as I'm concerned, students can say anything they want outside of the classroom. It's inside that matters. And inside the classroom, aside from a few lapses in judgement, Harry is respectful to Snape. > However, many people feel that the type of mandatory respect for people like doctors, > teachers, and elders is old fashioned. But really, good manners never go out of style. It depends on what you think good manners are. I happen to think that Harry is demonstrating admirable restraint and good manners when he deals with Snape. Better manners than Snape deals with Harry in many cases. At fifteen, I would have been far less tolerant. phoenixgod2000, who is wondering if he could convince his students to call him Mr. Phoenixgod. 'cause talk about ego stroking :) From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 23 23:31:17 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:31:17 -0000 Subject: apparating in and out of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131317 Steve/bboyminn: > But you will notice that this particular statement only > deal with 'popping' about WITHIN the castle. She doesn't imply > that Dobby or other elves can cross the boundary or perimeter > of the castle grounds. But neither does she say the Elves are > limited to 'within' the castle only 'popping'. > > > > I guess my point is that while we can ponder somewhat likely > alternative plans of attack on the castle, the rare and generally > unlikely, and poorly effective alternatives aren't really that > much of a thread. It would always be far more effective for a free > thinking human to attempt to attack the castle than for a servile > elf. Pat: In COS, Dobby got himself from Malfoy Manor into Hogwarts to tamper with the bludger, and to visit Harry after he was hurt. Dobby certainly didn't have help or permission from Lucius, since he was working against Lucius in doing this. After Harry freed him, Dobby threw Lucius down the stairs, and further intimidated him to stop him from attacking Harry. I think the house elves would be a tremendous weapon in the war, especially since their presense and power are probably taken for granted. As George said of Ginny, size is no guarantee of power. Dobby was unique in taking his own initiative, but Dumbledore has 100 elves who are loyal to him. They could be a formidable force in the war. Rishmosmom aka Pat From hackett1171 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 23:43:50 2005 From: hackett1171 at yahoo.com (kim hagen) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050623234350.29166.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131318 >Julie: > I've read everywhere that people think that Remus and > Sirius are (were) a couple, I've re-read all the books > looking for hints at this, but I have found none. Am I > missing something, or is this just fanfic? To me both > of them are straight, they are best friends, sure, but > does it mean they're lovers? I have read the posts about Sirius and Remus being lovers, and I just don't see it. I see nothing wrong with men giving joint gifts and hugging. My husband and his very good and LONG time friends hug all the time when they see each other. If it turns out that they are then I will give my house elf a piece of clothing.... Kim From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Fri Jun 24 00:07:27 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:07:27 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131319 > K wrote: > > I just don't see it. I think it is a lot of people reading into Canon > what isn't there. Two people of the same gender CAN be and often ARE > very good friends without having the wacka-wacka guitar playing in the > background. > I can't see it either...but I have a feeling it may be a cultural difference and I am not talking the differences in relationships/friendships comparing it to different countries...I am talking about social groups. In my experience, my male friends don't find it a problem to give each other a hug, however if I were to look at other people I know.... some men would find it offensive (unfortunately: in my opinion). I have never related affection towards the same or opposite sex to sexuality, unless they show intimacy towards each other (especially as adults). (I didn't see much, if any intimacy in the canon). Apologies if it sounds very corny! pot_of_harry From hackett1171 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 23:59:10 2005 From: hackett1171 at yahoo.com (kim hagen) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1000 galleon reward / Percy In-Reply-To: <6c20bff80506222124185b0314@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050623235910.64392.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131320 > Eighth wrote: > How could Percy get his hands on the money? Or do you mean > that he would only come back to the family because they're > suddenly wealthy? > > I imagine that the Weasleys actually aren't so badly > off as they used to be... Eighth, I was implying that Percy would come back because there was some money in the family now. I don't think they are as hard stuck as they used to be since they only have 2 kids in school instead of having 3-4 enrolled at one time. Kim From lyraofjordan at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 00:40:19 2005 From: lyraofjordan at yahoo.com (lyraofjordan) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:40:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: <20050623130535.88527.qmail@web33701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131321 > Julie: > > To me both of them are straight, > Marozi: > Seriously, I always took them for lovers and was a bit > surprised when I realized other adult readers weren't > seeing it that way. (huge snip) lyra: I understand how that passages you cite can be interpreted that way. However, if they are indeed lovers, Sirius apparently never sat down with Harry and had a heart-to-heart explaining "some boys like girls and some like ..." because after Cho kisses him, "Harry [sat] staring into the fire wishing more than anything that Sirius' head would appear there and give him some advice about girls." (OOTP, page 461, U.S0 From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Jun 24 01:04:50 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:04:50 -0000 Subject: Matriarchal books? (was Gothic House of Black and a bit of Remus/Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131322 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > As to the Blacks being matriarchal - well it's a common theme of > JKR's to have the women folk be far stronger than the men. (I can't > think of a single married couple where the wife doesn't reign > supreme. The Malfoys are an unknown at this point.) Why is that? Why portray men as so incompetent when it comes to relationships and family while women are inexplicibly knowing? Why is Ginny more confident with her first boyfriend than most women five years older than her and many more guys under their belts? Why is Hermione so knowledgeable about dating when she only has about fifteen more minutes of experience than both of the boys. Why is Ron so comically clueless about girls when he has so many older brothers he can go to for advice, including one whose basically a blend of indianna Jones and a rock star? Why does it seem like every guy in the book stands around like an open mouthed bass when a girl walks around while the women can practically read boys brains? Why is it interesting and compelling to knock James off his pedestal while Saint!Lily gets to walk around with a gleaming halo? And was Arthur Weasley always missing a backbone or did Molly just grind into dust while they were married? Is it for humor? does she think she's making a social point? Does she really think interactions between people are like this? The way she wrote James' backstory and Arthur, I wonder if she has some kind of issue with fathers in general. Are there any good, strong fathers in the book other than five minutes of older James? I actually find it insulting to my gender that she writes men, boys, and fathers like this. Although I do have to say I thought Harry/Cho was very well done. It's about the most genuine boy/girl interaction in the books. phoenixgod2000 From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 01:08:04 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:08:04 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar (Ye Purebloods, Merlin was What!?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131323 > > Alisha wrote: > Well, there is the Fat Friar. Also, I think the issue of religious > figures was brought up to show that it's possible Helga and Rowena > could have been educated, single women brought up in a convent, and > therefore considered with reverence and equality. > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Yea, I didn't think of him, I think I was really combining both thoughs there really, I was thinking of the founders and the people in the books now at the same time. I'm am not wholly person into the history of the 900's, but I read a essay someone did about the time period regarding what was going on in Brit, at the time Hogwarts was founded, so I guess all that feel into my thoughs, at the same time. (laughs) > > Alisha wrote: > What about the possibility of them having spouses outside the > foursome? Perhaps it's Salazar and Samantha Slytherin or Rowena and > Robert Ravenclaw. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Muwhahahaaaaaa, Samantha!!! Does she twitch her nose!!!! Muwhaha...Robert...How about Robin Ravenclaw..muwhaha. Holy Accio Salazar, your wife Samantha is a bonny lass... > Alisha wrote: > Wasn't the International Act of Wizarding Secrecy (or whatever it's > called) set up in the 1400s? So if Hogwart's was founded 1000 years > before CoS, then it would have been about 400 years before the > wizards separated from the muggles. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: And that my friends, is..Uni..do the math....meh..I don't know, I don't have a fact book with all these laws in it. Yes, I know, the police will tell me, that ignorance of the law is no excuse....sorry Sir, I'm just a Unicorn. > Alisha wrote: I don't see how this flows logically from the pureblood > ideal. If the males in the family hold such prejudices, it is > entirely possible that the females do as well. There's no way of > knowing what would happen to a woman who chose to marry a non- > pureblood wizard. She would probably be disowned, but that is no > different than what happens to Tonks' mother. Narcissa Malfoy > probably chose to marry a pureblood wizard based on her own > prejudices not necessarily those of her family. And inversely, if a > wizard chose to marry a non-pureblood witch, he would also probably > have been disowned. It is not only the women who might have been > pressured into marrying against their will. In order for a family > to remain "toujours pur", both the witches and the wizards would > have to marry only purebloods. > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Yes, I though of that actually, But still, the point I was making was about the gender friendly way everything is supposed to be balanced, if say, you are a pureblood woman, and have to choose between the man you love and your family..well..thats not very gender balanced, ok so maybe thats a family problem, but I suppose the logic I was following, the wizarding world is not 50/50 balanced if this sort of thing is going on. And yes, I do see that the children like Belle have been brought up and believe just as strongly as the men, I was just making the point that not everyone would be that way, so, their is a strong gender bias even in the wizarding world....I think that was sorta..what I meant by that....I think most of my post was basicly to show that even though its a nice though that the wizarding world is sorta this balance woman man thing, There are still just as many issues as the regular muggle folks have. > > > Alisha wrote: > Again, I don't see this as entirely logical. First of all, it is > apparent that Narcissa carries at least some sway in the Malfoy > household. It was her decision for Draco to attend Hogwart's > instead of Durmstrang. > Also, it's possible that Molly chose to stay home with the > children. She seems a capable witch in her own right, I'm sure she > could have gotten a job if she chose to. The presence of a > homemaker does not always indicate a patriarchal system. And to say > that since Arthur is the breadwinner he is the head of the house is > simply propagating patriarchal values. That's the argument that > people have used for centuries to argue male superiority. Since the > man is the one who "works" he is the one to whom the female should > submit. The reason that men worked, historically, was because they > were physiologically better suited to the work that needed to be > done. It is natural in many animals as well for one gender to do > specific work because they are physically better capable. (Think of > lionesses doing the hunting because the male lions' manes make them > too conspicuous for stalking prey.) KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I though they had those mane's because it made them look sexy...Hay..You lion, Your not Sexy, Your lazy, you eat all the food, and you bash my cubs around....hum..but you do have a cute tooshie...ok, so maybe I'll hang around and raise your rotten litter of 6 cubs...rotten man. Well, maybe we will see that Narssie is the boss and Lucius is just following her orders...muwhahah. I simply though she wanted her baby boy close to home. If that is what you meant in your reply, as, thats the only thing I can remember really being said about her....except the comment about she looks like shes got dung under her nose..teehee, If that is the statment you were talking about, That is almost like a complaint of a winny rich woman, pleading with her husband not to send her son so far away from her. I mean, in my mind, I'm seeing her doing a Rowena Ravenclaw putting foot down episode that I so comically indicated. "If you send my little Draco all the way to that school, I will never speak to you again Lucius!!" I was also not trying to say that Molly and Aurther have anything but a loving relationship, but working and earning money is importaint to life, obviously the Weasley's are in need of money. The wizarding world is no different there compaired to the muggle world. So if they are so poor and in need of money I wonder why Molly doesn't work? I'm not complaining about it, or, saying shes wrong, so please, I hope nobody is getting offended and saying I'm using a male point of view..since..um..I'm a girl. I was just using my power of observation to point out, Even though it is being said that the wizarding world is balanced 50/50, well, their are still examples of the same muggle system....Be it by choice or forced. > Alisha wrote: > This is only one version of the story of Merlin. When it comes to > legends, there are no "facts", only interpretations. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Meh..um...Generally, wouldn't that also be the case in any "information" JLR might put in her books about Merlin. But, thats just compairing a story, to a story..since..well, last I checked..the potter universe was...under a great deal of interpretation right now. So, anything we say about, Merline, Rowena Ravenclaw, Salizar Slytherin, is actually, one version of our own idea of the story, and until JKR gives us facts...I will submit that it is all open for interpritation. > >> > Alisha wrote: > JKR has pointed out several times that she intentionally kept the > balance of teaching staff at Hogwart's 50% male and 50% female. And > there are certainly witches among the headmasters' portraits in DD's > office, so while the current headmaster is male, that has apparently > not always been the case. KarentheUnicorn's reply: Yea, but, you need 50% woman, how else are you going to get little girls into the story....Hermione and McGonagall must hold down the fort! wait..we need girls as founders to! wait...lets add somemore girls...we need to meet the quota...ok..I was being silly again... > > Alisha wrote: > It seems to me that we have a very limited view of the majority of > the wizarding world to be making these sort of assumptions. I can > only think of two cases that we know of where the husband "works" > and the wife stays at home (Malfoys and Weasleys), but if you think > about it, Lucius Malfoy doesn't really work. He just manages the > estate and keeps the wheels greased for his political maneuverings. > Think about Amelia Bones. She's very high up in the ministry. > Think of Bellatrix Lestrange. She's practically Voldemort's right > hand woman. Think of Neville's Gran. Although a generally > umpleasant person, she seems to be the head of her family. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Bella, a high up woman, you mean that lady in the ministry of magic trying to kill Harry, the same woman that was cowering before Voldemort begging for forgiveness......yuck..please don't use her as an example, she reaks of harlot to me. I wanta smack her and tell her to stop the baby talk. Sorry, went into a Belle rant...I just dont' like her...maybe its cause she wasted Sirius...meh, I'd like to claw her eyes out...CATFIGHT..or um...Unicorn fight..okay, so...I'll poke her eye out...I don't have claws do I. > >> > > Alisha wrote: > I find your humor to be quite amusing actually. The idea of Rowena > putting her foot down made me chuckle! KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Thank You. Come on, what woman wouldn't. Maybe Helga would say, How the bloody hell are we going to feed that overgrown Snake, Salizar..You are totally crazy. I don't care, build it where ever you want, but keep it away from MY AREA, maybe you should dig deeper..like really deeper...no, I will not help you catch poor bunny rabbits to help feed your nasty basalisk. OK..so we've got to add a Godrick here. "You know Salzie...um..that thing is going to get pretty big when it grows up, have you told the girls about it yet.....meh, you might want to let it go..or...get rid of it..I don't think Row is going to like seeing it very much. It is kinda cute though..what do they eat...what BUNNY RABBITS..NO..get rid of it...thats just...cruel. Well I know its got to eat, but thats just wrong..NO I don't want to see it eat a live BUNNY, you are a sick man Salzie, exacly why are we friends. Ok..nuff said, laugh if you want to, curse me if you need to. KarentheUnicorn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 01:18:33 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:18:33 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131324 > Betsy Hp: Because I *do* agree that the interest in pure-blood is the negative aspect of Slytherin house that *must* be changed in order for Hogwarts to work as one. It's that negative ideology that Voldemort played on to gather his Death Eaters and so it falls under the "Voldemort's Shadow" that I see as darkening Slytherin house. Alla: MAHAHAHA! Told you - miracles do happen sometimes. :-) > >>Alla wrote earlier: > >The reason why I think that "purebloodism" IS Slytherin's house > ideology is because we have not seen ANY Slytherin yet (in the > younger generation at least) who does not share such ideology. >> > > Betsy Hp: > No, it's evidence of Harry's blinders when it comes to that > particular house. He's decided they're all bad, so they're all bad > and none of them are worth listening to. Alla: Erm, NO, not really. Unless of course under evidence of Harry's blinders you mean the fact that he have not noticed the good Slytherin yet. Am I making sense? I would absolutely agree that for plot purposes Harry and us, readers, do not see good Slytherin, but I think that those Slytherins which Harry already SAW are evaluated quite objectively, be it Harry POV or not. I mean, we primarily saw Draco and his chronies as representatives of Slytherins, right? Now, you like Draco, I ... well, pretty much hate him, but we do agree that ideology he expresses is a bad one, right? So, yes, I think what Harry saw in Slytherin House he evaluates quite objectively. It is VERY possible that he did not see everything yet, but really, I would be quite dissapointed if he changes his POV as to what he already saw, IMO only of course. > Betsy Hp: > Of course they don't. Because they don't appeal to *Harry* that > much. Until Luna came along the books implied that all Ravenclaws > were book-loving, library-living, nerds. Until we met Cedric all > Hufflepuffs seemed like rule-following, stay-with-the-herd, > lemmings. And until we meet the "good Slytherin" all Slytherins > appear to be rasicist little facists, hiss worthy at age eleven. Alla: NO again, because I extremely dislike the ideology these Slytherins express. I maintain that this is quite objective POV. Look, regardless of who would be describing Draco's spitting "Mudblood" at Hermione, be it McGonagall, Hagrid, Harry, or Snape, it would be quite enough for me to think that Slytherin's ideas equal "BAD" ideas. It may be unfair to think of the whole house when I only hear Draco, but again, I have not met other Slytherins yet, not really. And believe me, I had absolutely no negative feelings towards either Ravenclaws in general or Hufflepuffs in general before we met Luna or Cedric. Slytherin House pretty much stood up to me as house of racists, fascists, antisemits ( pick any RL equivalent you want). I said it many times, it indeed bothers me that quarter of wisarding kids is signed up to be future villains of WW at the age of eleven and I indeed hope that it is not so, but so far I saw little evidence to the contrary. JMO, Alla. From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Fri Jun 24 01:45:12 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:45:12 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131325 I've noticed that Pr. McGonnagal explains the 4 houses in the first book quite neutrally, as does the sorting hat (well, maybe a bit less neutral, but it says "ambition", not "evil sorcerers). I think, since we see the story from Harry's POV for the most part, we see the Slityrins as evil and unsavory, but some of them are okay. Harry just doesn't know it yet. Remember when Dumbledore addressed the students at the end of GOF? He said everyone (looking meaningfully at the Durmstrang students, whose headmaster is a former death eater) was welcome at any time. And, early in OP, Hermione says she thinks there is too much inter-house rivalry. The Quidditch fans take this as heresy, but she insists that Voldemort can only lose power if they have ties with Slytherins. I think Harry demonstrates one of his poorer traits by replying that he will NEVER like a Slytherin. Maybe Hermione knows some Slytherins who don't hold the racist views of the Malfoys. Hogwartsmom. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 02:07:22 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050624020722.95764.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131326 --- hogwartsmom wrote: ....edited... I think Harry demonstrates one of his> poorer traits by replying that he will NEVER like a Slytherin. Maybe Hermione knows some Slytherins who don't hold the racist views of the Malfoys. My grandmother always said "never say never" cause it may come back. Harry says he'll never like a Slytherin, which means he WILL like a Slytherin, my bet is a female Slytherin... interesting... Harry's new love could be a Slytherin, but a new one, not Pansy Parkinson or the others in Malfoy's gang, a nice Slytherin, one who isn't a Voldemort supporter or a Pure-blood freak. A girl with ambition, who doesn't like rules and with Slytherin's good qualities. What do you think? Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From buffyeton at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 02:15:14 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:15:14 -0000 Subject: Voldemort: Born or Made Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131327 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > Tonks: > > > > > Then we have Harry. Harry is an example of someone like the other > > two who has somehow (??) managed to rise above it all. And the > > mystery is just how has he been able to do that? I think that the > > books are about many things, and one of them is the developing the > > ability to overcome the evil done to us by other so that we do not > > give it back to the world. > > > Geoff: > I am reminded firstly of the old couplet: > > "Two men looked out from prison bars, > One saw mud and one saw stars." > > It has also been said that an optimist sees a glass as half-full, a > pessimist as half-empty. > > Much hinges on a person's attitude of mind. People who are faced with > difficulties and problems such as illness, misfortune or being > treated badly by others - as Harry,Tom and Snape for example - can > react in two ways. They can let it take over their lives, they can > brood over injuries, real or imagined, and complain to all who will > listen about their bad luck and wallow in it or they can set their > sights on rising above it and defeating it rather than the converse. > > Harry has had to adopt the latter course in order to stay positive - > not necessarily consciously but because he possesses that kind of > temperament. > > As ever, Dumbledore's comment on choices comes back into play. I think being sorted into Gryffindor, which as we all know he requested, made a big difference. I don't see Harry as being very optimistic. But he has the huge support of Hermione and the Weasleys who are optimistic. If LV and Snape had the same support system, they might have turned out differently. Tamara From drliss at comcast.net Fri Jun 24 01:13:37 2005 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:13:37 -0400 Subject: SHIP: Sirius and Remus In-Reply-To: <1119565308.1836.99785.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20050623205716.0187fa20@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131328 K: >I just don't see it. I think it is a lot of people reading into Canon >what isn't there. Two people of the same gender CAN be and often ARE >very good friends without having the wacka-wacka guitar playing in the >background. Lissa: I bit earlier, but I'll bite again for this comment, since I see it echoed over and over on this thread. One of the most popular myths about Sirius/Remus shippers is exactly what's being said here... and honestly, it really speaks kind of badly for those of us who DO ship them as a pair. I fully believe in platonic friendship. 100%. I think James and Sirius were completely platonic. I think Ron and Harry are completely platonic- and that's with Ron being the thing that Harry will miss the most when the other two male champions had their current loves taken away. And interestingly, if you look at the demographics, Ron/Harry is an EXTREMELY small ship, and very few Sirius/Remus shippers ship it. To me, that speaks volumes about the shippers. For many shippers, Sirius/Remus is their only slash ship. That also says a lot about this particular ship. I mean, my other ships are Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, Bill/Fleur... you get the idea. For many shippers, it's not an "oooh, look! Two hot guys who are friends! They must be gay!" sort of phenomenon. It has nothing to do with the hug in the Shrieking Shack. The Hug was a lot of things: it was absolution, it was forgiveness, it was acceptance, it was brotherhood, it was friendship, it was "welcome back after 12 years"... it was one of the most emotional moments of the books. But for a lot of shippers, it has absolutely no indication of a romance. So what makes us believe there is a romance between Sirius and Remus? I didn't ship them until OotP came out. The only moment that raised my eyebrows in PoA when I first read it was that Remus freaked out when Harry asked if he knew Sirius, and then calmed down when a friendship was cited. Goblet of Fire, Lupin's one mention made complete sense. It was when Remus and Sirius were living together, giving Harry a joint Christmas present (when Remus couldn't even send a card the year before, or could have gotten candy or a little trinket like Tonks did), acting in concert constantly, and responding to each other on a truly emotional level that my eyebrows got raised. (For the record, the comment that made me start thinking it was the living together bit, and the comment that made it all click was the "You should hear Remus talk about her!" bit. When do WE ever see Remus rant?) But those are details that can be explained either way, and it gets really silly to get into arguments over them precisely BECAUSE they can be explained either way. I said it earlier in my post... it's just the way they're written. It's not a feeling I get with any other friendship in the book. I can sit here and cite every other same-sex friendship... but that would get really, really redundant. It's just something about the closeness and the intimacy that's there that to me says "couple", but to others, doesn't. But for the record, it's not those-things-which-shall-not-be-named-here-but-are-directed-by-Cuaron. It's not the fact that two men hugged. It's not the fact that they're close friends. It's a sum of many things- none of which are the three listed right here. (Although, speaking as a woman who married her best friend, the line between friendship and love is the line that's truly thin- not the line between love and hate!) I'm not trying to convert anyone- It IS an ambiguous ship, and I don't think everyone needs to read it the same way. But please give the shippers (especially those on the grownups list!) a little credit for intelligence. I promise you many of us are very bright ;) Lissa From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 24 03:14:17 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:14:17 -0400 Subject: Cute Quote Message-ID: <42BB7A89.5090801@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131329 I'm reading PoA again, and this little one-liner caught my eye. P. 130 (Bloomsbury kid's edition) -- They've just come out of their first DADA class with Snape and rant about him. Remember that none of the backstory of these characters is known yet. Ron says "'Why's he got it in for Lupin? D'you think this is all because of the Boggart?' 'I don't know,' said Hermione *pensively*." Heehee. If it was deliberate (referring to how Harry later found out the history of Snape and MWPP) then it's subtle, and cute. If it's coincidental, it's still cute. :) heather the buzzard From maliksthong at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 03:20:03 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:20:03 -0000 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is?/ Hagrid a Halfling. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131330 > Mich Verrier: > > The only person who I know who used the term Halfling was > > J. R. R. Tolkien and Tolkien's word was used to discribe > > the Hobbits. I don't know whether it is even spelled that > > way, I think that it might be spelled differently and > > pronounced differently as well, and the way I think it > > might be spelled and pronounced is Haffling. > > Geoff: > You are quite right. "Hobbit" was the term used by the hobbits > themselves while the men of Gondor used the term "halfling" and the > Rohirrim on occasion used "holbytla". > > Hagrid definitely does not qualify as a halfling. He wouldn't get > through the front door of the house. > ;-) Chys: I used the word halfling as I know it: To describe a child born of two different species, (Human and Giant fits this in my opinion.) So if you're confused by another definition of the word, I'm sorry, I suppose I should have researched it better, I didn't think that it would be so confusing. I was looking for the word 'half-breed' but had forgotten if that was what was used in the book or not. It makes little difference, seeing as I was thinking it was a descriminatory name, as thinking that people would think of Hagrid as 'half giant' rather than, or before they would think of him as 'half-blooded wizard'. I wasn't saying it wasn't a possibility, just that if it was, it wouldn't have been obviously apparent, and wouldn't a different title (for him) have made more sense? I did say not to make an arse of myself. *snicker* Guess I have. I haven't read tolkein, only seen the movie, so I'm no expert there, but I didn't get the word halfling from that definition. I use that word in my own original writing as well, I just assumed everyone would pick up my meaning. Chys From labmystc at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 03:23:14 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:23:14 -0000 Subject: Cute Quote In-Reply-To: <42BB7A89.5090801@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > I'm reading PoA again, and this little one-liner caught my eye. > > P. 130 (Bloomsbury kid's edition) -- They've just come out of their > first DADA class with Snape and rant about him. Remember that none of > the backstory of these characters is known yet. Ron says "'Why's he got > it in for Lupin? D'you think this is all because of the Boggart?' > 'I don't know,' said Hermione *pensively*." > > Heehee. If it was deliberate (referring to how Harry later found out > the history of Snape and MWPP) then it's subtle, and cute. If it's > coincidental, it's still cute. :) > > heather the buzzard I noticed the same thing! There's also another reference, I can't remember from where, where the word "imperiously" is used. I found it funny that she uses these words given the context. Chris From juli17 at aol.com Fri Jun 24 03:25:57 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:25:57 EDT Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131332 >Lupinlore: >>Oh, not weird phoenixgod, I definitely agree with you. :-) >Snape has not earned Harry's respect, and Harry should not give it >to him, Julie says: I think there is a distinction between respecting a person and SHOWING respect for a person's position. Harry doesn't have to (and probably does not) respect Snape as a person. He's free to think that Snape is nothing more or less than a mean, bitter git of a man with no qualities worthy of admiration. But he is NOT free to show disrespect to Professor Snape while he remains Snape's student (in Potions or Occlumency), or while he's a student at Hogwarts period, where Snape is in an accepted position of authority. That is why Dumbledore, McGonagall, Lupin, Molly, et al, admonish Harry to call Snape "professor" or "sir." They aren't telling him what he must think or feel about Snape. They are telling him how he must conduct himself as a student of Hogwarts. It's a matter of courtesy (which is one definition of "respect") or good manners. It's not a matter of esteem or homage--that type of respect only comes from the heart. It's that kind of respect--if only in a grudging sense--I hope to see develop between Harry and Snape before it's all over, but it certainly isn't there yet, on either side! Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Jun 24 03:30:22 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:30:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131333 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > > On Jun 23, 2005, at 10:57 AM, potioncat wrote: > > > Alla: > > > They work well as friends, but they work for me at least even better > > > as lovers and that can offer so many interesting interpretations of > > > the past. > > > > > > Potioncat: > > I'll start off with apologies if I say something patronizing, or rude, > > I don't mean to. (If I say something just plain stupid, that's par for > > the course.) > > > > Given that there is enough canon support for the idea that that Sirius > > > > K: > > I just don't see it. I think it is a lot of people reading into Canon > what isn't there. Two people of the same gender CAN be and often ARE > very good friends without having the wacka-wacka guitar playing in the > background. > > > > You bet that two people of the same gender can be true and wonderful friends without being lovers....but if you assume that two people of the same gender can NEVER be lovers, then what is that called? There isn't too much in the canon to support the Remus/Sirius as lovers theory, BUT in the FILM, JKR specifically says that there are hints that are congruent with canon, and that there's nothing in the film that is NOT congruent with canon..and in the film...we hear Snape say "oh, bickering like an old married couple..."....also Cuaron refers to Lupin as everyone's favorite gay uncle, and there are other indicators in the film...if JKR had been uncomfortable it wouldn't have happened... Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Jun 24 03:34:17 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:34:17 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Sirius & Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131334 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Casey" wrote: > > > Alla: > > > > I don't think anyone was arguing that two people of the same sex > > cannot be friends anymore, but same is true for the other option > and > > two people of the same sex can be lovers too, right? > > > Funny, I always took Sirius and Lupin as lovers, and I don't even > like Sirius. > > One thing Jo has done is shown how wrong prejudice is, just look at > Harry's opinion of the statue in the MoM. Add to that the blood > purity and the only comments about gays in the book came from > Dudley, it's pretty plain that she is a very tolerant person. She > probably knows that putting an out gay couple in the book would have > made many parents uneasy about their children reading the stories. I > mean she's getting grief because of the increasing violence, imagine > if she had an out and proud homosexual or lesbian? > > Casey Casey, I think your comments are very nice. However, I doubt very much that JKR really cares TOO much about what people think about the books. No matter what, hundreds of thousands of people will buy them....If Sirius and Remus were lovers in her original vision of the tale, then they will be, and JKR will not care what others think... One thing that someone said on this list stayed with me...the books are really told from Harry's point of view. From young children's point of view, adults are sex-less.....from young heterosexual kids point of view, all adults are straight.....but now Harry is growing up..... Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Jun 24 03:36:24 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:36:24 -0000 Subject: Sirius & Remus (replies to many posts) In-Reply-To: <20050623154648.85054.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131335 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > > --- Tonks wrote: > > > Been biting my tongue on this one, but I can't stand > > it a minute > > longer. I suppose that it is just a sign of the > > times, but I am really > > sick of people thinking that because two people of > > the same sex are > > best friends, and like an old married couple, that > > they have to be > > homosexual. I have had young people ask me when I > > take my best friend > > somewhere if she is my mother or my lover. NO, she > > is my *friend* and I > > am straight. Geech I think that we have gone too > > far in the other > > direction. Sometimes people are friends. Can't two > > people be friends > > anymore!? Does everything have to be sexual? I > > think that Remus and > > Lupin are just that, friends. Which is a deeper > > bond than lover, if > > you ask me. A lover can leave, a real friend never > > does. > > Juli (replies to many posts) > > I agree with you 110% Tonks, and after reading all the > posts about people who think they may be gay, and I > haven't read any argument that may persuade me into > thinking otherwise... Shippers are just basing their > theories on scenes that are perfectly straight > (AFAIK), I mean, they could easily be scenes between > me and my best friends, either my best girl-friend > (and we're not gay), or my best guy-friend (and we're > not a couple). As Tonk says the bonds between two > friends is much deeper than a lovers'. Let's consider > that Remus and Sirius have known each other for about > 20 years, they sure are closed. Remember that Sirius > (& co) even became animagi just to keep Remus company > while the full moon, if it isn't true friendship I > don't know what is. Unless Jo shows us in a more > explicit way their "relationship", I'm sticking to the > Just Friends Theory. > > And just to show a bit of canon from Jo's website > (News- J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival) > > "Does Harry have a godmother? If so, will she make an > appearance in future books? > > No, he doesn't. I have thought this through. If Sirius > had married Sirius was too busy being a big rebel to > get married. When Harry was born, it was at the very > height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening > was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, > just the best friend. At that point it looked as if > the Potters would have to go into hiding so obviously > they could not do the big christening thing and invite > lots of people. Sirius is the only one, unfortunately. > I have got to be careful what I say there, haven't I?" > > Juli > OF COURSE TWO PEOPLE can be friends and affectionate and love each other forever, without being lovers...but can't you see that by rejecting the idea that ANY INDIVIDUAL in the HP universe might be gay, that you are affirming the dominant view of the universe? That EVERYONE must be heterosexual? That by suggesting that someone might be gay or lesbian that you are insulting or demeaning them? Susan > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Jun 24 03:47:45 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:47:45 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration classes In-Reply-To: <20050624002733.68943.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131336 > --- Liane wrote: > > ...edited... > > So, I was just wondering if I could hear some > > people's theories about > > Transfiguration, and how it actually works. I mean, > > are there wand > > movements or incantations? > > > > Juli: > > I believe transfiguration is as much magic as > everything else. They do use their wands: in PS/SS in > the first lesson they learn how to transform a Pin or > something, a beetle into something, then in PoA they > have to transform a turtle into a tea pot aussie: and for defence, during the fist Task in GOF, one tactic was to transfigure a rock into a dog to distract the Dragon ... it all helps aussie From juli17 at aol.com Fri Jun 24 03:54:28 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:54:28 EDT Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure Message-ID: <7d.6bdf47d5.2fecddf4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131337 phoenixgod2000 writes: > And Harry uses an informal address to a third party when Snape isn't > around. I still want to know why Molly and DD get their knickers in > a twist over that. As far as I'm concerned, students can say > anything they want outside of the classroom. It's inside that > matters. And inside the classroom, aside from a few lapses in > judgement, Harry is respectful to Snape. Julie says: I sent my last post before I read this far. My apologies for belaboring the point about manners. As for why Molly and DD insist Harry call Snape "Professor Snape," I think it is simply to reinforce the that Harry is required to show respect for Snape's position. Also, they know Harry and Snape do not have a friendly relationship, but they both consider Snape an important ally. Insisting on a show of respect by Harry for Snape may be their way of trying to influence Harry to actually respect (i.e. trust) Snape as a vital ally in the Order. They may or may not know how hard it is for Harry--and how hard Snape *makes* it for Harry--to do this, but I do think it is part of their intent. And Lupin's as well. Also Dumbledore usually corrects Harry at Hogwarts. Since Hogwarts is a boarding school, Snape's authority extends well beyond the classroom. In these cases, I think Dumbledore is again reinforcing that requirement for Harry to show respect Snape's position and authority at Hogwarts. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vloe at dallasnews.com Fri Jun 24 04:05:45 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (firebird) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:05:45 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Sirius and Remus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131338 >Lissa: > >I think James and Sirius were completely platonic. > > Firebird now: This whole discussion poses the interesting quesiton: Does gaydar, to the degree that any of us has it, operate within a literary context? Oddly, I'd never considered the Sirius/Remus ship possibility. And my gut reaction is, "nope." But Sirius and James, now that's entirely a different matter. Even with James' attempts to catch Lily's eye, it seems to me that his interactions with Sirius in OoP (as remembered by Snape, at least) pretty much ooze sexual tension. I'm not saying that was JKR's intention, or that they were actually lovers -- or that, even if they were, it has any bearing on Harry's journey. Just an observation that hadn't quite jelled for me before this thread. firebird From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 04:22:13 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius & Remus (replies to many posts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050624042214.21671.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131339 Susan wrote: > > OF COURSE TWO PEOPLE can be friends and affectionate > and love each > other forever, without being lovers...but can't you > see that by > rejecting the idea that ANY INDIVIDUAL in the HP > universe might be > gay, that you are affirming the dominant view of the > universe? That > EVERYONE must be heterosexual? That by suggesting > that someone might > be gay or lesbian that you are insulting or > demeaning them? > I'm sorry, but I think you got the idea wrong, I have absolutely nothing against homosexual people, in fact a very good friend of mine is gay, and I love him for everything he is. But I have this gut feeling that they are not a couple, I've read the books about 4 times each and not once did I get the idea that they were lovers, that's why I started this thread, I wanted to see why people thought they were gay, that's it. As a straight woman in this world I like to dream about characters in books, and I fell in *love* with Sirius since the Shrinking Shack scene at PoA, so personally it would be a huge disapointment if he turned out to be gay because then he'd be out of reach. Of course there can be homosexuals in JKR's world, I have no problem with that, but I just don't want it to be Sirius or Lupin. If you told me that someone else, say Sturgis Podmore was gay, then OK, good for him, but please let the Marauders be straight. It's just me, but this is how I feel. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 05:05:18 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 05:05:18 -0000 Subject: Sirius & Remus (replies to many posts) In-Reply-To: <20050624042214.21671.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131341 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > I'm sorry, but I think you got the idea wrong, I have > absolutely nothing against homosexual people, in fact > a very good friend of mine is gay, and I love him for > everything he is. (Snip) As a straight woman in this world I like to dream about characters in books, and I fell in *love* with > Sirius since the Shrinking Shack scene at PoA, so > personally it would be a huge disapointment if he > turned out to be gay because then he'd be out of > reach. Of course there can be homosexuals in JKR's > world, I have no problem with that, but I just don't > want it to be Sirius or Lupin. Tonks: I agree with everything that Juli says here. And I would like to add this: Remember when Sirius tells Harry that the world isn't divided into DE and everyone else or something like that. Well the world, WW or otherwise, isn't divided into those in a *relationship*, or looking for a *relationship*, and the dead. I know a lot of folks on this list are young and that tends to be where you mind is when you are young. You are in the phase of life where you are looking for the perfect relationship, your life partner, paring of whatever variety, but that is not how the whole rest of the world lives. Believe it or not, many people the world over live perfectly satisfactory and productive lives with out a sex partner of whatever persuasion. And Remus and Lupin are in (what) their late 30's early 40's. Maybe *looking for love* is not uppermost on their mind. I don't think that the sexual or romantic paring is a big thing in the books and it is not a slight to homosexuals if they are not represented. It is JKR's books after all, and children's books at that, and she can do whatever she wants. And fans can read whatever they want into it for that matter, even if it was not put there by the author. I choose to see a few of the characters as part of the group that has not yet *come out of the closet* and that group are those who are celibate. Ah, except for Lupin, of course. ;-) Hey Juli maybe we can double date. ;-) Tonks_op From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Fri Jun 24 05:07:34 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 05:07:34 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131342 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amis917" wrote: > > When reading OOTP, I question this one each time.. > > > > (Aunt Petunia's just heard the howler) "'What is this?' Uncle Vernon > > said hoarsely. 'What -- I don't -- Petunia?'" > > > I'm not sure why he's so confused. When they took Harry in, was he > > not included in all of the details? The message clearly makes sense > > to Petunia, because she made Harry stay. I'm just interested in > > knowing what actually happened when Harry was taken in by the > > Dursleys. Karen wrote: > My personal theory on this is the following (and it's pure > speculation): Petunia is a witch, but an untrained one. She received > a letter to Hogwarts, but being a straight-laced little girl and > convinced her parents would not approve, she declined to go. A couple > of (or however many) years later her little sister also got the same > letter. She accepted. Her parents were delighted to have "a witch in > the family". Petunia, astonished and upset by her parents obvious > delight made a point of strongly disapproving and making a > totally 'normal' life for herself, even down to marrying the most > straight-laced and narrow-minded man she could get her hands on. > > At the beginning of PS and owl is seen in Privet Drive, just after > Vernon had left for work. This was from Dumbledore telling her that > her nephew was now an orphan and needed to stay in her home in order > to receive the protection of living where his Mother's blood resided. > Anticipating her almost inevitable refusal, he says he'll tell Vernon > that she is a witch if she says "No" and asks how her husband would > react to the news that he is married to a witch. > > I believe that Harry was left on the doorstep so that his arrival > would be 'a complete surprise' to them both and Petunia could insist > that they couldn't possibly stick a baby in an orphanage because what > would the neighbours think? > > I think "Remember my last" is a sharp reminder that Vernon is even > less likey to take the news that his wife is a witch well, and Veron > is totally baffled as he has no idea that Petunia has had previous > correspondance with "his sort" other than the original note that came > with baby Harry on the doorstep, which probably said little more than > his parents were dead and he was in need of a home. > > JMHO John: This is an intriguing idea; however JKR has confirmed that Petunia is indeed only a muggle, albeit one with a little more to her than immediately "meets the eye." Asked at the World Book Day Chat last year (see News section, JKR's site): "Is Aunt Petunia a Squib?" JKR responded: "Good question. No, she is not, but ? [Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but ? [Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a Squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet." John. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 05:23:09 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 05:23:09 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131343 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Someone" wrote: > > John: > This is an intriguing idea; however JKR has confirmed that Petunia > is indeed only a muggle, albeit one with a little more to her than > immediately "meets the eye." > > "Is Aunt Petunia a Squib?" > > JKR responded: > > "Good question. No, she is not, but ? [Laughter]. No, she is not a > Squib. She is a Muggle, but ? [Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a > little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will > find out what it is. She is not a Squib, although that is a very > good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly > indiscreet." Tonks: Well now JKR says that the Squib guess is a good one, but not correct. And that Petunia is a Muggle. That doesn't mean that Petunia didn't give up the possibility of being a witch at some point to continue to live as a Muggle. I have wondered about that myself. She might have given it up for Vernon, without his knowing it. Or as the previous poster said decided against it when she got the letter. So I don't think that this inteview disproves this theory. Tonks_op From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Jun 24 05:40:41 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 05:40:41 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: <7d.6bdf47d5.2fecddf4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131344 Insisting on a > show of respect by Harry for Snape may be their way of trying to > influence Harry to actually respect (i.e. trust) Snape as a vital > ally in the Order. They may or may not know how hard it is > for Harry--and how hard Snape *makes* it for Harry--to do this, > but I do think it is part of their intent. And Lupin's as well. You're probably right. > Also Dumbledore usually corrects Harry at Hogwarts. Since > Hogwarts is a boarding school, Snape's authority extends well > beyond the classroom. DD's insistence on proper modes of address wouldn't bother me as much if there was any indication he was also putting pressure on Snape to treat Harry better. I want to know if DD is also correcting Snape in private to refer to Mr. Potter more respectfully as well. I just get the feeling that everyone seems to want Harry to go the entire way when it comes to Snape without Snape making any effort at all to keep up his end of the respect bargain. phoenixgod2000 From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 24 06:01:01 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:01:01 -0000 Subject: 1000 Galleon Reward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131345 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Now all we have to do is sort out how many of those capture were on > the poster of escaped DE's and multiply that by G1,000. As far as > who gets the money, I'm inclined to think that Auror, who in a > sense are professional policemen (like FBI) aren't allowed to > accept rewards. I further think all the adults not working for the > Ministry would decline. > > But, when the rewards are divided among the select DA members, > Harry will talk everyone into kicking back a share so that Lupin > gets a cut. > Although, Moody could qualify for a share of the reward, I think > as an ex-Auror, he would refuse on general principle. > So, ((how many escapees captured) X G1,000) divided by (the > participating DA member plus Lupin). > > So, how much is that? > > Steve/bboyminn > > Quick and easy money conversion G1:?5:$7.5 Yes that is more or less what I have said previously - the adults will decline (or be ineligable), but Lupin may be persuaded and Harry and Hermione will decline (and possibly Neville - don't know his financial circumstances) leaving Ron, Ginny and Luna to share with Lupin. Someone said that the Ministry wouldn't share out a declined share, but what I meant was that everyone eligable would take their reward and then those that didn't need it would divvy their share amongst those that did. I have been suggesting that the total reward will be G 9000 based on the fact that there were 10 escaped DEs (their 10 faces stared out of front page of the Daily Prophet at them) and only Bellatrix escaped. Karen From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 06:02:36 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:02:36 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131346 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Someone" > wrote: > > > > John: > > This is an intriguing idea; however JKR has confirmed that Petunia > > is indeed only a muggle, albeit one with a little more to her than > > immediately "meets the eye." > > > > "Is Aunt Petunia a Squib?" > > > > JKR responded: > > > > "Good question. No, she is not, but ? [Laughter]. No, she is not a > > Squib. She is a Muggle, but ? [Laughter]. You will have to read > the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a > > little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will > > find out what it is. She is not a Squib, although that is a very > > good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly > > indiscreet." > > > Tonks: > Well now JKR says that the Squib guess is a good one, but not > correct. And that Petunia is a Muggle. That doesn't mean that > Petunia didn't give up the possibility of being a witch at some > point to continue to live as a Muggle. I have wondered about that > myself. She might have given it up for Vernon, without his knowing > it. Or as the previous poster said decided against it when she got > the letter. So I don't think that this inteview disproves this > theory. > > Tonks_op Since Lily and Petunia's parents are stated to be muggles on several occasions. At least it is suggested by the mudblood comments. Then she can't be a squib by definition. We don't have any reference to what happens if someone declines to be a witch or wizard. I think one could say she is a muggle, as Hagrid put it "non magic folk", but that she could be a non-trained witch would still be possible. I have a theory that maybe one or both of Lily's parents was the squib and that is why they were happy to have a witch in the family. Without someone saying exactly what they are I don't see a way for someone to know for sure. Brent From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 24 06:03:23 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:03:23 -0000 Subject: Calling All Detectives/ Re: New Droobles Anagram? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131347 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "algnash" wrote: > > UMBRIDGES STOLEN BOWL BOG > (MoM secrets hidden in Dolores's pensieve lost on the moors?) Or - for the British readers - UMBRIDGES STOLEN BOG BOWL - LOL!!! Karen From prncssme at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 06:30:57 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:30:57 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131348 Phoenixgod says: > Sara, how much respect would you honestly think you deserve from > your students if you acted like Snape does in the classroom? Yes, a > student is obligated to respect a teacher, but by the same token a > teacher is obligated to be someone worthy of being respected. Of > course that could be my wacky ethics and desire to be a good teacher > talking :) Princess Sara: You're assuming I don't act like Snape. ;o) Actually, I see your point here. I just think it's problematic for students to separate the teacher-in-office from the teacher-as-person in terms of respect. I can't remember which post it was but someone on the list mentioned that Harry knows little to nothing about the man himself. And I think we may have to wait to see the O.W.L. results before we can judge how effective his *ahem* abrasive teaching style is. Phoenixgod again: > I suppose that if your are judging respect by > acting in a bootlicking servile fashion, someone like Draco is your > model, but I would think less of Harry if he acted the same way. Princess Sara again: Whoa now! I never said that Harry should be toadying up to Snape like some spoiled pure-blood Slytherin! I'm just saying that Snape's request to be called "sir" falls well within his rights as Harry's teacher and elder. Harry has no problem remembering to address Lupin as Professor, even though they are arguably in a much closer relationship than Harry and Snape are. Phoenixgod: > And Harry uses an informal address to a third party when Snape isn't > around. I still want to know why Molly and DD get their knickers in > a twist over that. As far as I'm concerned, students can say > anything they want outside of the classroom. It's inside that > matters. And inside the classroom, aside from a few lapses in > judgement, Harry is respectful to Snape. Princess Sara: I agree with you on this one, though I can kinda see why DD would be annoyed. And I personally wouldn't want to hear what my students say about me, no matter how good a teacher I think I am. Regarding how respectful Harry is, I think it's a matter of how we read the scenes... Phoenixgod: > It depends on what you think good manners are. I happen to think > that Harry is demonstrating admirable restraint and good manners > when he deals with Snape. Better manners than Snape deals with Harry > in many cases. At fifteen, I would have been far less tolerant. Princess Sara: You may have a higher tolerance than I do when it comes to student behavior when you say Harry is well-mannered to Snape. Harry interrupts Snape consistently throughout the first occlumency lesson, even when Snape is trying to explain things. He refuses the suggestions given to him and even yells at Snape. I personally think Snape showed greater respect for Harry, first in answering questions he was being badgered for and secondly, for keeping his temper while Harry could not keep his. > phoenixgod2000, who is wondering if he could convince his students > to call him Mr. Phoenixgod. 'cause talk about ego stroking :) Princess Sara: Heehee! I wonder if I could get away with "Your Highness." ;o) Anyway, all I'm saying is that Snape deserves respect from Harry because he is a teacher, an elder, and someone who is trying to help (despite what Harry may think). - Princess Sara From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 24 06:48:41 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:48:41 -0000 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is?/ Hagrid a Halfling. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131349 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Lattes" wrote: > Chys: > > I used the word halfling as I know it: To describe a child born of > two different species, (Human and Giant fits this in my opinion.) So > if you're confused by another definition of the word, I'm sorry, I > suppose I should have researched it better, I didn't think that it > would be so confusing. I was looking for the word 'half-breed' but > had forgotten if that was what was used in the book or not. Geoff: I just got the following information from Wikkipedia (via Google): "Originally, 'Halflin' was an old Scottish word, pre-dating The Hobbit and Dungeons & Dragons. It meant an awkward rustic teenager, who is neither man nor boy, and so half of both. Another word for halflin is hobbledehoy. Some fantasy stories use halfling to describe a person born of a human parent and a parent of another race, often a human female and an elf. Terry Brooks describes characters such as Shea Ohmsford from his Shannara series as a halfling of elf-human parentage." Note that the meaning which you use is a modern post-Tolkien invention. So you could place Hagrid in that context but in the original Scots meaning or Tolkien''s for that matter, I think he would not fit the definition. However, its not worth fighting over. :-) From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 24 06:54:41 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:54:41 -0000 Subject: Cute Quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131350 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: Chris: > I noticed the same thing! There's also another reference, I can't > remember from where, where the word "imperiously" is used. I found it > funny that she uses these words given the context. Geoff: I've commented in the past on some of JKR's subtle wordplays - Diagon Alley, Knockturn Alley and Umbridge spring immediately to mind....... From buffyeton at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 09:25:44 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:25:44 -0000 Subject: Prophecies Always Come True? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131351 Maybe it's because a lot of my mind still lives in the Buffyverse when it comes to prophecies, but in HP land, do the prophecies always come true? Or can they be thwarted? Tamara From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Fri Jun 24 09:30:40 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:30:40 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131352 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Someone" > wrote: > > > > John: > > This is an intriguing idea; however JKR has confirmed that Petunia > > is indeed only a muggle, albeit one with a little more to her than > > immediately "meets the eye." > > > > "Is Aunt Petunia a Squib?" > > > > JKR responded: > > > > "Good question. No, she is not, but ? [Laughter]. No, she is not a > > Squib. She is a Muggle, but ? [Laughter]. You will have to read > the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a > > little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will > > find out what it is. She is not a Squib, although that is a very > > good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly > > indiscreet." > > > Tonks: > Well now JKR says that the Squib guess is a good one, but not > correct. And that Petunia is a Muggle. That doesn't mean that > Petunia didn't give up the possibility of being a witch at some > point to continue to live as a Muggle. I have wondered about that > myself. She might have given it up for Vernon, without his knowing > it. Or as the previous poster said decided against it when she got > the letter. So I don't think that this inteview disproves this > theory. > John: Well I suppose it depends on what you mean by the term `muggle'. I've always taken it for granted that any person with the magical gene is a `wizard' or `witch', regardless of whether they choose to exercise that potential. Lawyers and doctors and chartered accountants become so only after professional training; wizards or witches are born. Recall that Hagrid told Harry that he was "a wizard" before the boy had even accepted his Hogwarts letter of offer. Therefore, IMO, you can't "give up the possibility of being a witch [or wizard]." It doesn't seem to be a matter of choice. Nor, as the Dursleys, much to their chagrin, found out, can one's wizard-ness be stamped or beaten out. It would seem that even an untrained witch or wizard would continue (unintentionally) to do remarkable, distinctly un-muggle-like things, such as growing all of their hair back overnight or bouncing harmlessly along the pavement when dropped from a second story window. Petunia may have willfully forfeited her place at Hogwarts; she may have chosen to remain an untrained witch; but in that case she would still be a 'witch', after all, and not a muggle. That's the way I've always seen it (until now). John. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 24 10:05:13 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:05:13 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131353 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Someone" wrote: John: > Therefore, IMO, you can't "give up the possibility of being a witch > [or wizard]." It doesn't seem to be a matter of choice. Nor, as the > Dursleys, much to their chagrin, found out, can one's wizard-ness be > stamped or beaten out. It would seem that even an untrained witch or > wizard would continue (unintentionally) to do remarkable, distinctly > un-muggle-like things, such as growing all of their hair back > overnight or bouncing harmlessly along the pavement when dropped > from a second story window. Petunia may have willfully forfeited her > place at Hogwarts; she may have chosen to remain an untrained witch; > but in that case she would still be a 'witch', after all, and not a > muggle. Geoff: To quote Dumbledore, "Yes and no". I believe in certain skills, that if you decide that you do not wish to pursue them, then OK, you don't pursue them. Full stop. In matters such as innate talents as you mention, I wonder whether there might be a "use it or lose it" effect. As an example, when I was much younger, I could speak fairly reasonable French. But since I have not had the opportunity to practise the language for many, many years, my knowledge has gone completely. I doubt if I could string even one sentence together. I take your point about Harry's hair and Great Uncle Algie's experiments with the coefficient of restitution but those were under conditions of extreme stress; Petunia, being Petunia, would arrange her well-ordered life to try to avoid these conditions...... I think I would agree with you on the subject of Petunia's status though. From hackett1171 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 11:18:31 2005 From: hackett1171 at yahoo.com (kim hagen) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP Re: Sirius and Remus Message-ID: <20050624111831.39186.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131354 Lissa: > >I think James and Sirius were completely platonic. > > Firebird now: This whole discussion poses the interesting question: Does gaydar, to the degree that any of us has it, operate within a literary context? Oddly, I'd never considered the Sirius/Remus ship possibility. And my gut reaction is, "nope." But Sirius and James, now that's entirely a different matter. Even with James' attempts to catch Lily's eye, it seems to me that his interactions with Sirius in OoP (as remembered by Snape, at least) pretty much ooze sexual tension. Kim Now In OotP Sirius is telling Harry about how James' family took him in as his own. (pg 111 US hardcover) "You ran away from home?" "When I was about sixteen," said Sirius. "I'd had enough" "Where did you go?" Asked Harry, staring at him. "Your dad;s place," said Sirius. "Your grandparents were really good about it; they sort of adopted me as a second son. Yeah I camped out at your dad's during the school holidays, and then when I was seventeen I got a place of my own......" "I was always welcome at Mr. and Mrs. Potters for Sunday lunch, though." I see this is Sirius having the brother he never had in Regulus and vice verse for James. If assumptions are right they have been friends since the age of 11. SO, IMO, for them to have any kind of interaction it is a sibling level of intimacy --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilybella719 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 07:22:16 2005 From: lilybella719 at yahoo.com (LilyBella) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP Re: Sirius and Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050624072217.32365.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131355 Im not replying to anyone specifically and I dont usually get into these kinds of debates, but this was one I couldnt resist, simply because I do not now, nor have I ever understood the Sirius/Remus ship for numerous reasons. I wont go into them all now; Id end up writing an essay, but well Before Azkaban, Sirius and James were best friends. There is no denying that, and Ive always gotten the impression that no one ever came before James as far as Sirius was concerned, before or after his imprisonment. I think because Sirius had James, someone he loved, someone he depended on, he didnt really care for or bother with romantic relationships. Thats not to say I think James and Sirius were lovers (you can, however, interpret it that way if you like), I just dont think he felt the need for a girlfriend (or boyfriend, if you prefer) in his life because he already had someone who fulfilled him. Thats not to say he didnt date, I imagine he dated plenty, I just dont think he was ever serious with anyone, and I think this can be backed up by a JKR quote about Harrys christening from the Edinburgh Book Festival that was pointed out earlier: *Does Harry have a godmother? If so, will she make an appearance in future books? No, he doesnt. I have thought this through. If Sirius had married Sirius was too busy being a big rebel to get married. When Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, just the best friend. At that point it looked as if the Potters would have to go into hiding so obviously they could not do the big christening thing and invite lots of people. Sirius is the only one, unfortunately* I imagine if Sirius were in a serious relationship with anyone they would have been invited to the christening with him. Going by this quote, however, not even Lupin was invited. If he and Sirius were lovers at this point, I think itd be safe to assume hed be there to witness something like that, but she said it, Sirius was the only one and what reason would there be to say Lupin wasnt there? Especially when some people seem to think JKR set out for Lupin and Sirius to be partners, youd think shed be happy to give that little detail. Itd only serve as more evidence. After Azkaban, not only do I doubt one of Sirius main priorities was to find himself a shag partner, but GoF canon shows us after Harry discovered the truth, Sirius spent another year hiding out with Buckbeak, no mention of Lupin anywhere until Dumbledore asks Sirius to hide out his place at the end of the book. The argument stands if they were lovers, why wouldnt Sirius go to Lupin instead of living off rats to be near Harry? Surely Harry could have kept Sirius just as updated at this ex-professors house than with him living in a cave, not to mention there would have been food, a place to bathe By the time we see Sirius again in OotP, hes not the same guy he was in GoF. Hes constantly depressed, often immature, and it seemed to me that Lupin was at Grimmauld Place more out of the need to watch Sirius in the way a mother watches a child, rather than two friends living together because welljust because. I think at this point, Lupin couldnt have had a relationship with Sirius he was too damaged; it wouldnt have been healthy, not for either of them. Lupin wouldnt have allowed it. LilyBella From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 12:02:06 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:02:06 -0000 Subject: Prophecies Always Come True? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > Maybe it's because a lot of my mind still lives in the Buffyverse when > it comes to prophecies, but in HP land, do the prophecies always come > true? Or can they be thwarted? > > Tamara KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Fairy Tales, Can come true, it can happen to you...if your a little kid..thats got an evil wizard after you.... I feel a song parody coming on..urg..Needs all the words to this song. (haha) Ok, for my real though, I personally, hope, that the whole prophecy thing will, shrink up and die like a old prune. But, I'm not writing the story, so, meh, I personally hope that yes, that prophecies can be thwarted. Meh, but probably not in this case, since, its taken on such an importaints in the story. I sorta hoped that the big weapon that Voldemort was trying to get out of the Ministry was really something a little more..interesting, instead of a glowing orb of what someone said might happen later. Ok, so it furthers the plot, and lets us know How Voldie knew about Harry, because someone overheard part of prophecy, and told him, so, now we know how old Voldifellow's knew about Harry...Yay! Plot Continuation Assured..Yay! Fan's Cheer, Snape screams, Dumbledore Ponders,McGonagall tears up and tries to actually look caring and nice, Hagrid giggles, aww a little baby, can't we keep him....ok. So, either its a really nifty plot device, or, its all fire spectacularly importaint.....If I had been in there, I'd have wiped out all the prophecies, laughed evily..Muwhahaha...Now all of you are on your own, SUCKERS!....Does that mean, I should go join Voldemort???? meh...no, it just means I am really pissed at Harry for being such a blockhead, and going to the ministry, for a stupid glowing orb. Darnet, why couldn't it have been like a big trogan bunny, or, directions to Voldemorts secret Lair...or, at least his favorite Pizza, so, Dumbledore and the order could do a bad pizza dilvery scene. OK..wait, If I remember right, and I probably don't. But, if the only person that can get the prophecy from the Ministry, is the person that the prophecy is about...then, if you want to get right down to it, wasn't it about Voldemort too. OK, I know it was saying a baby would be born, but wasn't it a baby that would defeat Voldemort..so, doesn't that make it Voldemorts prohecy to??? MEH...Uni confused, need advil....CURSE YOU EVIL PLOT DEVICE!!!! KarentheUnicorn From labmystc at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 12:13:43 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:13:43 -0000 Subject: Prophecies Always Come True? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131357 > OK..wait, If I remember right, and I probably don't. But, if the > only person that can get the prophecy from the Ministry, is the > person that the prophecy is about...then, if you want to get right > down to it, wasn't it about Voldemort too. Yes, it was about Voldemort too. But the only reason LV sent Harry the images of Sirius in the MoM was to get Harry there to get it for him. He wasn't about to make it well known to everyone that he was back in full power, especially when everyone disbelieved Harry and DD. DD had it right when he told Harry that it is our choices which define us, and not our abilities. And maybe that could be extended to prophecies as well. Yes, prophecies do come true, but remember they are future predictions, things that can be changed before they occur, depending on the choices we make. Chris From phil at pcsgames.net Fri Jun 24 12:41:37 2005 From: phil at pcsgames.net (Phil Vlasak) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:41:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cute Quote References: <42BB7A89.5090801@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <000a01c578ba$2155f9e0$6600a8c0@phil> No: HPFGUIDX 131358 Heather the buzzard said: > I'm reading PoA again, and this little one-liner caught my eye. > > P. 130 (Bloomsbury kid's edition) -- They've just come out of their > first DADA class with Snape and rant about him. Remember that none of > the backstory of these characters is known yet. Ron says "'Why's he got > it in for Lupin? D'you think this is all because of the Boggart?' > 'I don't know,' said Hermione *pensively*." > > Heehee. If it was deliberate (referring to how Harry later found out > the history of Snape and MWPP) then it's subtle, and cute. If it's > coincidental, it's still cute. :) > > heather the buzzard Now Phil: I found a similar quote in book 4 and 5, GOF: ... come on, Longbottom, I've got some books that might interest you." Neville looked pleadingly at Harry, Ron, and Hermione, but they didn't say anything, so Neville had no choice but to allow himself to be steered away, one of Moody's gnarled hands on his shoulder. "What was that about?" said Ron, watching Neville and Moody turn the corner. "I don't know," said Hermione, looking pensive. Now Phil again, Will we find more aboutNeville through a Pensieve? And from, OOP: Tonks paused at his open wardrobe to look critically at her reflection in the mirror on the inside of the door. "You know, I don't think purple's really my color," she said pensively, tugging at a lock of spiky hair. Now Phil, Will we find out more about Harry's Metamorphmagus abilities in a Pensieve? From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 24 14:34:30 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:34:30 -0000 Subject: Prophecies Always Come True? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131359 > Maybe it's because a lot of my mind still lives in the Buffyverse when > it comes to prophecies, but in HP land, do the prophecies always come > true? Or can they be thwarted? > > Tamara I have a great deal to say about this, as the philosophy of time and causation is one of my favourite topics (apart from Harry Potter). It is my opinion that the 'real' prophecies in the books (like the ones held in the DoM) *always* *always* do come true. This is because I picture the predictions as if Trelawney was repeating something told to her by someone travelling back from the future for a just a moment, and this future was the future of a time in which she had already made the prediction. (Our language is actually quite inadequate to communicate things like this so I apologise for the lack of clarity here). Effectively, Trelawney's prediction may be regarded as one of the causes that made the future turn out the way it did when she predicted it. The reason why this is confusing is that it constitutes a causal loop - the future events cause the past which caused the future. If the future did not turn out that way, the prediction would never have been made in the first place. The people who know the future cannot set about changing it because, to some extent, it must have already happened for them to know what it was in the first place... (I realise I sound crazy, but this is how I think things are.) This, to me, ties in nicely with the time turner episode in PoA. TT! Harry and TT!Hermione appear, apparently out of nowhere, at Hogwarts during that fateful evening, and cause a chain of events. It is only when we get to midnight that we find the 'cause' of their sudden appearance - they time turned. This is also a causal loop. There is much debate amongst modern philosophers and physicists about whether or not causal loops are possible, but one of the more popular modern theories is that if causal loops are possible, and objects may interact with the events of the past (like TT!Harry), they may only do so in a *logically* consistent way, i.e. in a way that preserves the already established events of the past. This is perfectly demonstrated by the TT episode in PoA, particularly by Harry's patronus, but is inconsistent with Hermione's remarks about wizards who have killed their past selves (which is *logically* impossible). But this is the wizarding world and a fictional world, so logic may go amiss once or twice. The point is that the actual book events are logically consistent. And, IMO, Hermione should learn not to believe everything she's read/been told by teachers - especially when the logic breaks down. Back to the Future this ain't. Apart from the TT episode, my other evidence I have for thinking that prophecies must come true is that Dumbledore says that Lord Voldemort was not trying to 'thwart' the prophecy when he went to kill Harry; instead he thought he was fulfiling its terms. In fact, he *did* fulfil its terms, but not in the way he was expecting. and so I conclude that the real magic of the prophecy is the way it is worded so it shapes events in just the right way to make itself come about, but without giving the whole plot away. And this magic is performed by Jo Rowling, not by a wizard. And, for the record, it is her that I picture whispering in Sybil's ear. I hope this makes sense! JLV xx From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 24 14:42:50 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:42:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Sirius and Remus In-Reply-To: <20050624072217.32365.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131360 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, LilyBella wrote: > I'm not replying to anyone specifically and I don't > usually get into these kinds of debates, but this was > one I couldn't resist, simply because I do not now, > nor have I ever understood the Sirius/Remus ship for > numerous reasons. I won't go into them all now; I'd > end up writing an essay, but well Marianne: Fair enough. Some people see it; some people don't and it remains to be seen whether any definitive canon will support the pairing beyond a shadow of a doubt, or sink it along with the other shattered timbers of wrecked ships. speculation about Sirius' best-friend relationship with James being fulfilling enough for Sirius/ and the Sirius "big rebel" JKR quote> LilyBella: > I imagine if Sirius were in a serious relationship > with anyone they would have been invited to the > christening with him. Going by this quote, however, > not even Lupin was invited. If he and Sirius were > lovers at this point, I think it'd be safe to assume > he'd be there to witness something like that, but she > said it, Sirius was the only one and what reason would > there be to say Lupin wasn't there? Marianne: Unless Lupin was away on Order business and couldn't be there? Or perhaps the Order was so concerned about their members being picked off by DEs that caution determined only the barest number of people could attend the ceremony. At what point did homosexual relationships become legal in the UK? Was Sirius being a "big rebel" not because he was playing the field, but because his relationship with another man was technically against the law? LilyBella: > After Azkaban, not only do I doubt one of Sirius' main > priorities was to find himself a shag partner, but GoF > canon shows us after Harry discovered the truth, > Sirius spent another year hiding out with Buckbeak, no > mention of Lupin anywhere until Dumbledore asks Sirius > to hide out his place at the end of the book. The > argument stands if they were lovers, why wouldn't > Sirius go to Lupin instead of living off rats to be > near Harry? Marianne: I too doubt that looking for sex was a high priority for a man who had just spent 12 years in a forced depressive state. Plus, as great distrust had obviously seeped into whatever relationship the two men had prior to the Potters' deaths, it seems unlikely that they could simply pick up where they left off, even if we're talking about friendship only. As for why Sirius wouldn't stay with Remus, I think he wouldn't want to run the risk of Remus getting caught hiding a fugitive. If Sirius is caught by the Ministry near Hogwarts, he doesn't drag anyone else down with him. And, I also think Sirius believed his responsibility was towards Harry. LilyBella: > By the time we see Sirius again in OotP, he's not the > same guy he was in GoF. He's constantly depressed, > often immature, and it seemed to me that Lupin was at > Grimmauld Place more out of the need to watch Sirius > in the way a mother watches a child, rather than two > friends living together because well just because. I > think at this point, Lupin couldn't have had a > relationship with Sirius he was too damaged; it > wouldn't have been healthy, not for either of them. > Lupin wouldn't have allowed it. Marianne: And you may be completely correct in this reading. We can speculate back and forth and not come to agreement. However, I don't understand your point regarding Lupin not being able to have a relationship with Sirius because Sirius was too damaged. Are you saying that Remus would only offer friendship at this point because Sirius was so far beyond help that anything else would have been a mistake? I agree that they probably would not have had the healthiest of relationships, but that doesn't always stop people. Anyway, I'm not trying to say you're wrong and I'm right. I think both sides in this debate can easily speculate from canon to show different interpretations of whatever relationship existed between Remus and Sirius. If you subscribe to the ESE!Lupin as described so eloquently by Pippin, Remus may very well have been the one to send Sirius through the veil. I'm sure HBP will give us additional fodder, at least into the workings of Mr. Lupin. Marianne From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 15:04:47 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:04:47 -0000 Subject: Prophecies Always Come True? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131361 > > Apart from the TT episode, my other evidence I have for thinking that prophecies must come true is that Dumbledore says that Lord Voldemort was not trying to 'thwart' the prophecy when he went to kill Harry; > instead he thought he was fulfiling its terms. In fact, he *did* > fulfil its terms, but not in the way he was expecting. and so I > conclude that the real magic of the prophecy is the way it is worded > so it shapes events in just the right way to make itself come about, > but without giving the whole plot away. Tonks: Hummmm. Is it possible that the battle in the MoM was TT and the first time someone else went throught the veil. Sirius and DD come back to send Sirius instead of _______?? Because someone has to die and you can't change that, but you can change *who*?? I only have this question because you say that LV was there to fulfill the prophecy, not just see it. Oh, it is just all too confusing for me. Tonks_op From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 15:27:21 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:27:21 -0000 Subject: Prophecies Always Come True? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > Maybe it's because a lot of my mind still lives in the Buffyverse when > it comes to prophecies, but in HP land, do the prophecies always come > true? Or can they be thwarted? > > Tamara bboyminn: The answer is YES ...sort of. I assume you are wondering about the conflict between fate/destiny and free will. Are we force to act in way over which we have no control, our destiny seal no matter what we do, or can we still make free will choices and even possibly avoid out fate? Again, the answer to both is ...sort of. Harry does have free will. That is. he can move to Australia and try to avoid the whole affair. Remember the Prophecy say he CAN defeat the Dark Lord, not that he WILL. So, he can move away and avoid the whole thing. On the other hand, even if he does avoid Voldemort, his life is somewhat controlled by the Prophecy. Because he is forced to move away, he has had to give up people and places he wanted. He has been force to do things he would prefer not to do, and the specter of Voldemort will always be hanging over him. So, while he has avoided the Prophecy he is not free of it or it's influence. Also, Prophecies are so vaguely and strangely worded that you can always find data after-the-fact to fit your assumed interpretation. Further, Harry wouldn't have been fated by the prophecy if it wasn't in his nature to play in out. True, Harry could move to Australia, there is nothing stopping him from making that choice, but is he likely to, is that in Harry's nature? Is he one to run from a fight? I don't think so. My point here is that Fate or Prophecy is not forcing these choices on him, these are the choices he would naturally make. So, the Prophecy influences our future, but it doesn't force it. The prophecy defines our destiny but it doesn't dictate it. At least that's how I see it. Steve/bboyminn From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 24 15:57:47 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:57:47 -0000 Subject: New anagram challange (was Calling all detectives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131363 First I wrote: > Potioncat: > Sorry. I must do this, I can't help myself. And I don't know who first > posted this: > > Draco Malfoy = Lord of a YMCA. Now I know that in post 95677, a little over a year ago, Ginger wrote: I hope we find out that middle name if he intends to be Lord Something. Otherwise we are left with "LORD OF A YMCA" and I'm not even sure if the British have those. Ginger, humming "young man, there's a place you can go..." to herself So, I wonder if Ginger ever wroe a filk with that in mind? And as it seems we're all going out of our minds waiting for HBP, I issue a challenge. Come up with a middle name for Draco in order to make a HP appropriate anagram! Personally, I'm no good at word puzzles, I think I'll go check out a summer catalogue. Potioncat (BTW, Lupin means wolf) From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Fri Jun 24 16:03:54 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:03:54 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Sirius and Remus In-Reply-To: <20050624111831.39186.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131364 > Firebird now: > > This whole discussion poses the interesting question: Does gaydar, to > the degree that any of us has it, operate within a literary context? > Casey: I wonder if those of us that have close relationships with gay "couples" think of Sirius and Remus as gay more than others. It's hard to explain what the indicators (true or not) are that makes them ping. I've also never felt disappointment if an actor/singer/television charactor was gay. I mean it's not like I would have a chance with Alan Rickman anyway, much to my disappointment. I can still look at Kyan Douglas (US Queer Eye) and want to eat him with a spoon, even though I know that I would have just as much luck with him as I would with Alan. Never got any ping from James and Sirius together, although I do think Sirius worshipped James far too much. Casey From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 24 16:28:57 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:28:57 -0000 Subject: Prophecies Always Come True? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131365 > JLV: > Dumbledore says that Lord Voldemort > was not trying to 'thwart' the prophecy when he went to kill Harry; > instead he thought he was fulfiling its terms. In fact, he *did* > fulfil its terms, but not in the way he was expecting. > > Tonks: > Hummmm. Is it possible that the battle in the MoM was TT and the first > time someone else went throught the veil. Sirius and DD come back to > send Sirius instead of _______?? Because someone has to die and you > can't change that, but you can change *who*?? I only have this > question because you say that LV was there to fulfill the prophecy, not > just see it. > > Oh, it is just all too confusing for me. > > Tonks_op JLV: I knew I wouldn't say it right. To make things clear, when I said "Lord Voldemort was not trying to 'thwart' the prophecy when he went to kill Harry" I was talking about when Voldemort went to kill Harry as a baby, not when he appeared at the DoM to steal the orb. I believe Voldemort wants to hear the full prophecy because it will tell him his fate. He knows, as Harry does, that one of them will kill the other. The very fact that he knows that this has been predicted means that Voldemort is going to try to kill Harry at every opportunity, because he knows that if he doesn't kill Harry, he'll be killed /by/ Harry. The prophecy is therefore self- fulfilling to a large extent, but Voldemort wouldn't bother trying to fulfil the terms of the prophecy in his favour if thought there was a chance the prophecy wouldn't come true. I can only assume that he thinks this because all past prophecies that he knows about *have* come true. If one hadn't, he might be more relaxed about the whole thing. And also just to clarify, as Harry has seen Sirius go through the veil we *know* that was what happened. The whole point is that with time turning, there is no `first time' and `second time'. Only one set of events occur, but there is a loop such that the causes of some things are linked to future instead of past events. I know it is confusing, but the point I was trying to make is that once something has happened, it cannot be undone - Buckbeak never did get the chop in PoA and Harry was able to produce the patronus because he knew he had already done it. It makes sense in my world, but only just. Anyway, JMO, JLV xx From cottell at dublin.ie Fri Jun 24 17:56:25 2005 From: cottell at dublin.ie (muscatel1988) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:56:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Remus - and how little we know about WW law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131366 (vast snip) > At what point did homosexual relationships become legal in the UK? > Was Sirius being a "big rebel" not because he was playing the field, > but because his relationship with another man was technically > against the law? (vast snip) "In England and Wales, gay sex was legalized in 1967, for consenting males aged over 21. Scotland followed in 1980, and Northern Ireland in 1982. The age of consent was lowered in 1994 from 21 to 18, and again in 2000 to 16 in mainland Britain and 17 in Northern Ireland. This last change gave it equal treatment with the heterosexual age of consent." (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual) That's the legal history for muggles at least, but there's at least two complicating factors for R/S. The first is that we don't know very much about how wizarding law differs from muggle law. The second is that the legal situation doesn't necessarily provide an accurate barometer of general social attitudes (to anything). And since homosexual acts were only criminalised in the 19th C in the UK, it's possible that the WW never had them at all. To diverge a bit from the topic here, the first point brings up a whole set of other issues which are directly or indirectly important in the Potterverse, which basically concern the We don't, for example, know how inheritance works, other than that it exists in some form (Harry's inheritance from his parents, though he seems to have access to it long before he would in the MW) - there's been so much discussion about who gets Sirius's estate in this forum, but we don't know for example whether the WW includes entailment (since JKR is such an Austen fan, this wouldn't surprise me at all *). Neither do we know much about the WW legal status of marriage: does the WW recognise a muggle marriage? This one's of interest because of TR's parents - she's referred to by TR as his "wife". But we don't know whether there was a muggle wedding only (in which case the MW would regard TR as legitimate) - would this have been regarded as a "legal" marriage in WW terms? Or was there just a WW wedding, which the WW would recognise, but which would leave TR as an illegitimate child in MW terms, possibly then providing a reason justifiable in law for shipping the child off to an orphanage. Of course, it's possible in the Riddle case that this parents weren't married at all, and he's rewriting history in using "wife". And what does a WW wedding consist of, anyway? Who has the authority to perform one? Is there WW divorce? Are the laws on consanguinity different? So many questions, and so little time left to answer them. I'm betting that we'll get some insight into inheritance in HBP, but as for the marriage issues, I doubt we'll ever know. -------------------------------------------------------------------- * It's just occurred to me in thinking of entailment: who is Sirius's closest male blood relative? His brother is dead and he has no children, so the line would pass to his cousins. Bellatrix, Narcissa and Andromeda are female, and Lucius isn't blood, which would mean (squeak!) Draco. I confess that I haven't paid a lot of attention to inheritance posts here - perhaps I should have. Crumbs! From editor at texas.net Fri Jun 24 18:08:22 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:08:22 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131367 Phoenixgod: > DD's insistence on proper modes of address wouldn't bother me as > much if there was any indication he was also putting pressure on > Snape to treat Harry better. I want to know if DD is also correcting > Snape in private to refer to Mr. Potter more respectfully as well. You better get used to being bothered, then--because that's not anything Harry's likely to see, unless he overhears it (a la the "staffroom scene" in CoS or the night conversation between Dumbledore and Snape in the Great Hall in PoA). > I > just get the feeling that everyone seems to want Harry to go the > entire way when it comes to Snape without Snape making any effort at > all to keep up his end of the respect bargain. Not at all. It has to be from both sides. I just think that Snape may already be doing what you want to an appreciable degree, internally-- but is constrained by what he can express (or needs to be on record for expressing). And since Harry either can't see it or is not correctly interpreting it*, it's not "there" for us as readers. *and on that note, let me state for the record my frustration with Harry's double-think in the OoP, in Umbridge's office, when he has just agonized over how to give a message to Snape that Umbridge will not understand--and then doesn't seem to have a clue that Snape can't say, right there, "OH! I understand, you're talking about Sirius, right?" or even "I'll take care of it, Potter," If Harry knows to be secret about it, why the hell doesn't he realize Snape can't give any evidence of understanding him without piquing Umbridge's interest? Mmf. *sigh* Need new canon. ~Amanda From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jun 24 18:23:19 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:23:19 -0000 Subject: New anagram challange (was Calling all detectives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131368 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Potioncat: > I hope we find out that middle name if he intends to be Lord > Something. Otherwise we are left with "LORD OF A YMCA" and I'm not > even sure if the British have those. Geoff: Tut, tut, tut. The YMCA is a British invention. It was started by a guy from Somerset (the county in which I now live) in 1844 and didn't reach the heathen side of the pond until 1851. :-)) > Potioncat (BTW, Lupin means wolf) Geoff: Sorry, I'm in pedant mode. "Lupin" is a flower. "Lupine" means wolf-like. So Remus is a flower power hippy wolf. From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 24 18:34:01 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:34:01 +0100 Subject: bickering between Ron and Hermione Message-ID: <001401c578eb$4bb3cf10$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 131369 I'm listening to GoF at present and have noticed that in both GoF and OotP we get the bickering between Ron and Hermione the most. I'm not surprised that in OotP Harry told both of them to shut up and the sad thing is that the bickering is over such small subjects such as house elves and Victor Krumb. With all Harry was going through in OotP, I think he was quite right to put his foot down. "Okay," he says, "Enough is enough - stop being daft and grow up, both of you. Haven't we got enough with Umbridge on our tails without you two bickering about such silly subjects as creatures who are just falling over themselves to ensure we receive all these lovely meals and comforts in our living quarters and another guy?" Let's hope they have a bit more sense in the next installment. Derek From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 18:35:20 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:35:20 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131370 Ok, I'll play: DD at opening feast: I'd like to introduce our new DADA teacher, Professor Shackelbolt. Ron to everyone: Did you hear? The Chudley Canons are sending scouts to watch our games! Their keeper is retiring in 3 years. Cho to Marietta: I don't think we'll be hanging out as much this year. Winky to Hermione: Winky is a free elf now, and Winky is giving Miss a piece of her mind. Miss isn't ought to be butting in where Miss isn't wanted. Miss is ought to be knitting for the homeless. DD to Kreacher: (sings) All in all, you're just another head on the wall. DD to Molly: We have an elf who is not taking well to freedom and will die of alcoholism if not re-enslaved. Since you are so busy with the order, would you mind helping her? Snape to MM: Hold still. There seems to be something on your neck. Let me get a closer look. (wave to Pippin) Aberforth to Albus: I never did get over the disappointment of when I met our new nanny. DD to Lupin (beginning of book): I have a favour to ask for the summer. Please have Harry stay with you and teach him advanced DADA. It will be good for you both. Oh, yes, and tell him about his parents. He is suffering from a deplorable lack of curiosity. (10 points to your house if you get the movie reference.) Hagrid to Mme Maxime: Er, so would yer marry me? Some goofy ones for linguists: Snape to Lucius: It's my fault really. I didn't fully translate the potion and didn't realize that it didn't say "one ounce dragon heart" until I heard the Longbottom boy say "Accio Ventrical". Hermione to Snape: Professor? Did someone mistranslate this potion? I'm sure step 4 should be to add 2 dragon's *eggs*. Bad Ginger. Go to your room. Ginger, who spent too much time on the computer last night and has mouse arm. Ouch. From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 11:53:03 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Matriarchal books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050624115304.55429.qmail@web33712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131371 phoenixgod2000: >Why portray men as so incompetent when > it comes to > relationships and family while women are > inexplicibly knowing? Marozi: This doesn't really strike me as an accurate assessment at all. Lupin is probably the most observant, empathetic, and communication-savvy character in the series. Whereas Molly believes that Hermione is a heartbreaking tramp because she read it in the paper. phoenixgod2000: > Why is Ginny more confident with her first boyfriend > than most women > five years older than her and many more guys under > their belts? Marozi: Ginny has six older brothers. She's not surprisingly comfortable with boys. Though she wasn't very confident with her first crush. phoenixgod2000: > Why is Hermione so knowledgeable about dating when > she only has about > fifteen more minutes of experience than both of the > boys. Marozi: Hermione did wipe the floor with Ron in the post-Yule-Ball argument. But knowledgeable- "you should have told her how ugly you think I am?" I'm not so sure she's quite the expert she presents herself as in OotP. What about this: Of course, she would have been expecting him to ask her out after what had just happened...The thought made his stomach clench painfully. 'Oh well,' said Hermione distantly, buried in her letter once more, 'you'll have plenty of opportunities to ask her...' 'What if he doesn't want to ask her?' said Ron, who had been watching Harry with an unusually shrewd expression on his face. 'Don't be silly,' said Hermione vaguely, 'Harry's liked her for ages, haven't you, Harry?' (us pb 460) There's a lot more to emotional intelligence than knowing who likes who. phoenixgod2000: > Why is it interesting and compelling to knock James > off his pedestal > while Saint!Lily gets to walk around with a gleaming > halo? Marozi: Lily doesn't really come across as a saint in SWM. She comes across as a fairly typical type of teenage girl who enjoys dramatizing righteous indignation and disdain. Even Harry notices that she has to try not to smile. She certainly doesn't help Snape any. And she apparently doesn't have a thing to say about *Sirius* being arrogant and bullying. Just that Potter. She can't stand him! He's such a jerk! *tosses hair* phoenixgod2000: > And was Arthur Weasley always missing a backbone or > did Molly just > grind into dust while they were married? Marozi: His manner may be meek but he's got a will of his own. His way of dealing with Molly seems to be to do as he pleases and let her get on with the yelling. After 20+ years, he knew how she would react to the stitches, but he did it anyway because he wanted to. And it's Arthur, not Molly, who's angry at Percy. phoenixgod2000: > Are there any good, > strong fathers in > the book other than five minutes of older James? Marozi: ...Aragog? *runs* __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Jun 24 19:02:50 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:02:50 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131372 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" > > You better get used to being bothered, then--because that's not > anything Harry's likely to see, unless he overhears it (a la > the "staffroom scene" in CoS or the night conversation between > Dumbledore and Snape in the Great Hall in PoA). but a guy can dream, can't he? > > Not at all. It has to be from both sides. I just think that Snape may > already be doing what you want to an appreciable degree, internally-- > but is constrained by what he can express (or needs to be on record > for expressing). And since Harry either can't see it or is not > correctly interpreting it*, it's not "there" for us as readers. I don't know about that. Snapes problems with Harry strike me as far to real and raw for him to be truly making an effort. At least thats the way I read things. > *sigh* Need new canon. A note of agreement. phoenixgod2000 From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Fri Jun 24 02:29:31 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:29:31 -0000 Subject: Forgiving Snape / was Re: Harry's potential father figures /Religion in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131373 Alla wrote: I can absolutely see Harry deciding that he needs to work with Snape against Voldemort, without ever changing his feelings about the man. The problem is I am not so sure that Snape will agree to do so, even if Harry decides to be more mature person. Hogwarstmom: Snape already helped Harry by counter jinxing Quirrel's attempt to pitch him off his broom. Unfortunately, he was misunderstood. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jun 24 19:49:15 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:49:15 -0000 Subject: Lupin/Lupine was (Re: New anagram challange (was Calling all detectives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131374 > Geoff: > Sorry, I'm in pedant mode. > > "Lupin" is a flower. "Lupine" means wolf-like. > > So Remus is a flower power hippy wolf. Potioncat: So was Little Red Riding Hood picking lupins when she met the Lupine? And who could be LRRH in the HP books? Is Lupin (ESE!) the one you shouldn't stop and talk to on the train... erm I mean path? Poitoncat who supposes this added nothing new. But is suffering after hearing a novice violin player performing the Theme to Harry Potter (soundtrack) at an elementary school talent show today. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 19:59:45 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:59:45 -0000 Subject: Prophecies Always Come True? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: > > JLV: > > ...edited... > > I believe Voldemort wants to hear the full prophecy because it will > tell him his fate. He knows, as Harry does, that one of them will > kill the other. The very fact that he knows that this has been > predicted means that Voldemort is going to try to kill Harry at > every opportunity, because he knows that if he doesn't kill Harry, > he'll be killed /by/ Harry. The prophecy is therefore self- > fulfilling to a large extent, ...edited... > > ...edited... > > Anyway, JMO, > JLV xx bboyminn: Excellent thoughts, and for the most part I agree with your assessment. I especially like you very realistic view of Time Travel one that is very close to my own. As far as Voldemort and the Prophecy, again I don't dispute anything you said, but I do want to expand one point a little more. Yes, Voldemort was interested in the Prophecy just to know the nature of his fate. But I think the book implies that he wanted more than that, I think it implies that he was looking for a loophole. I also want to re-enforce, that since Voldemort doesn't know the Prophecy, he doesn't know if the information contained in it will or will not help him gain some advantage over Harry. WE know it will not because we have heard it, but to Voldie it is a great and powerful unknown with the POTENTIAL to be very enlightening. For example, there could be something in the Prophecy that goes like this - "..And the Dark Lord shall have power of darkness, and /he/* shall have power of light. When the moon rises full /he/ shall have power, and but in the darkest of night, the Dark Lord will shine..." or some other such similar nonsense. (*/He/ of course being Harry) Of course, it doesn't say that BUT the Dark Lord doesn't know. IF this were true, then Voldie would have his loophole. He would know that he was most powerful at the new moon, and that Harry was most powerful at the full moon. That could be the WEAPON he was looking for; the loophole. Again, without knowing the Prophecy, Voldie doesn't know if it will or will not help him, and until he knows it in full, he doesn't know the extent or context of the Prophecy's influence on the situation. Until he knows the Prophecy, he is only dealing with a fraction of the knowledge that his enemies have available. So, yes, Voldie is seeking to fully understand the nature of his fate, but he is also looking and hoping for a loophole. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From dk59us at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 20:05:32 2005 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:05:32 -0000 Subject: Prophecies Always Come True? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131376 Tamara wrote: > > Maybe it's because a lot of my mind still lives in the Buffyverse > > when it comes to prophecies, but in HP land, do the prophecies > > always come true? Or can they be thwarted? Then Steve/bboyminn wrote (in part): > > The answer is YES ...sort of. > > I assume you are wondering about the conflict between fate/destiny > and free will. Are we forced to act in way over which we have no > control, our destiny sealed no matter what we do, or can we still > make free will choices and even possibly avoid our fate? Again, the > answer to both is...sort of. > > Harry does have free will. That is, he can move to Australia and try > to avoid the whole affair. Remember the Prophecy say he CAN defeat > the Dark Lord, not that he WILL. So, he can move away and avoid the > whole thing. On the other hand, even if he does avoid Voldemort, > his life is somewhat controlled by the Prophecy. > He has been forced to do things he would prefer not to do, > and the specter of Voldemort will always be hanging over him. > Also, Prophecies are so vaguely and strangely worded that you can > always find data after-the-fact to fit your assumed interpretation. > > Further, Harry wouldn't have been fated by the prophecy if it wasn't > in his nature to play it out. Now Eustace_Scrubb: I agree...sort of. I agree that the subjects of a prophecy aren't forced to act in a certain way because of the prophecy. They have free will on a day-to-day basis. Harry _could_ move to Australia to avoid the prophecy, no question--much as Oedipus left Corinth to avoid fulfilling the prophecy that he would kill his father,etc. But having free will doesn't mean that one escapes the prophecy. Oedipus later discovered that he had been adopted by Polybus of Corinth and that the man he killed on the road to Delphi was in fact his real father and that he had in fact married his mother. Prophecy fulfilled. And it's not just a matter of interpretation. It objectively worked out that way. [Of course it's true that the prophecy doesn't say that anyone _will_ vanquish the Dark Lord, though one will have the power to do so. But if Harry interprets the line "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives" to mean that he must become either a murderer or a murder victim (as Dumbledore encourages him to believe--possibly incorrectly) then this would be the part that Harry might wish to avoid.] So it's Harry's choice whether to flee to Australia, but if prophecies work in the Potterverse the way they do in Greek (and other) mythologies, he can't escape in the end. And as Steve says, it runs against Harry's nature to run away from the prophecy. Though I suspect he'll be sorely tempted to do so before the end. But the real question is how Rowling views these prophecies. She's certainly borrowed liberally from various mythologies throughout the series, so it might make sense that she'll have Potterverse prophecies come true in the end, despite anyone's attempts to subvert or escape them. But perhaps she's just using them as a plot device (as others in this thread have suggested) or maybe she's going to explicitly debunk the-prophecy-as-inescapable-fate idea as the series concludes. I suppose Potterverse prophecies could turn out to be analogous to the visions seen in the Mirror of Galadriel _or_ what the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come shows Scrooge--possible futures that may not come to pass at all, depending on choices made. But then those aren't really prophecies, are they? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 19:42:49 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius's whereabouts in GOF (was SHIP Re: Sirius and Remus) In-Reply-To: <20050624072217.32365.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050624194249.94741.qmail@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131377 LilyBella: > Surely Harry could have kept Sirius just > as updated at this ex-professors house than with him > living in a cave, not to mention there would have > been food, a place to bathe Marozi: You know, we don't really know where Sirius was keeping himself for the better part of the year. In September, he writes to Harry that he has returned to England and is "well hidden." Before the first task, he speaks to Harry by Floo and appears well-fed and well-groomed. Then in spring, he turns up in Hogsmeade full of gossip about the Crouches etc. that he has "heard" since his escape. So I think he *was* hiding with someone - possibly Lupin, possibly Mundungus Fletcher for all I know. But he doesn't seem to have been sharing rats and caves with Buckbeak the whole time. ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 20:23:03 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's whereabouts in GOF (was SHIP Re: Sirius and Remus) In-Reply-To: <20050624194249.94741.qmail@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050624202303.91759.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131378 > Marozi: > > You know, we don't really know where Sirius was > keeping himself for the better part of the year. In > September, he writes to Harry that he has returned > to > England and is "well hidden." Before the first > task, > he speaks to Harry by Floo and appears well-fed and > well-groomed. Then in spring, he turns up in > Hogsmeade full of gossip about the Crouches etc. > that > he has "heard" since his escape. So I think he > *was* > hiding with someone - possibly Lupin, possibly > Mundungus Fletcher for all I know. But he doesn't > seem to have been sharing rats and caves with > Buckbeak > the whole time. > Juli: I agree, we don't really know where Sirius was, but here's what I *know*: During the summer between PoA and GoF he was probably in some tropical paradise (remember the birds). When Harry wrote him saying the scar was hurting, he went back north, then we learn he's in England. He first talks to Harry through the chimeney, still living in a house I think (Short hair, clean) Harry gets picked for the TWT in October, DD is worried, so he recomends the cave to hide. Sirius spends the winter months hiding in the cave. (he lost a lot of weight and his hair grew back) At springtime he lets Harry know where he is. After LV returns DD sends him to Lupin's, then sometime during the summer (probably June), he moves back to 12 GP. This is how I see it, but I could be mistaken. PS I loved Tonks idea about a double date, you go out with Lupin, right? And I go out with Sirius ;) Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From BrwNeil at aol.com Fri Jun 24 20:36:16 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:36:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] bickering between Ron and Hermione Message-ID: <7f.60ca9aea.2fedc8c0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131379 In a message dated 6/24/2005 2:35:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com writes: >I'm listening to GoF at present and have noticed that in both GoF and OotP >we get the bickering between Ron and Hermione the most. I'm not surprised >that in OotP Harry told both of them to shut up and the sad thing is that >the bickering is over such small subjects such as house elves and Victor >Krumb. The size of the subject depends on its importance to the individual. Hermione considers house elves as enslaved, Ron comments that his mother would like to have one for doing the ironing. Such differing opinions on slavery were one of the reasons for the US civil war. This is one subject that either Ron or Hermione will need to make a full turn around on if they are to ever be a couple. Second, if Ron truly likes Hermione, he should be concerned that she is writing Victor such a lengthy letter. It could be completely innocent and just as a pen pal, but as Ron says, Victor wanted more than to be a pen pal to Hermione. These subjects may not be as important as Voldemo's return, but the are every bit as important as Harry's relationship to Cho. Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Fri Jun 24 20:40:59 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:40:59 -0000 Subject: SHIP - SB/RL Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131380 My 2 cents on the discussion. Let me begin by saying I'm a straigt, happily married woman of middle-age and while I've been friends with lesbians I've never known that any men in my circle of friends and acquaintances are gay. My husband and I really disaggree about this ship, too. I had a sort of frisson about SB/RL in PoA, but it wasn't the hug, it was the way Remus reacted to Harry when he brought Sirius up, dropping his briefcase, asking "Do you really think anyone diserves that?" about up the Dementor's Kiss. Snape's badgering about Remus letting Sirius in the castle. Then at the end of GoF there was the "Lay low at Lupin's" remark of Dumbledore's. Then in OotP, it was the Grimmald Place scenes. Lupin stares at Sirius for 40 lines of text at one point! And Remus is definitely the only one who can control Sirius: "Molly, be quiet! Sirius, sit down!"(quote from memory) Oh boy, does Sirius look whipped there. Remus and Sirius really get along a lot like Molly and Arthur do: as a couple. I almost choked in the theatre at the 'old married couple" comment, and I wondered if Lupin's reference to "people like me teaching their children" wasn't an indirect refernce to parental homophobia. If it's true, poor Remus is probably doubly outcast. Perhaps as my husband suggests I'm reading too much into this. I find nothing incongurous in that JKR might address prejudice against homosexuals in an indirect manner in light of her rejection of other froms of societal prejudice. So what do I want out of HBP? Perhaps a talk between Harry and Remus, where Remus says, "Of course I miss him, Harry. Although James was my friend, I was closer to Sirius than to anyone else." From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 21:06:21 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: SHIP - SB/RL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050624210622.26299.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131381 --- Lynete wrote: ...edited... > > So what do I want out of HBP? Perhaps a talk between > Harry and Remus, > where Remus says, "Of course I miss him, Harry. > Although James was my > friend, I was closer to Sirius than to anyone else." So if Remus has this talk with Harry, then would you agree that they were a couple? If I read that sentence I would just think, but of course he was closer to Sirius, James has been dead for 14 years, and he's the only friend he had left, the grief of losing James is over, he has mourned him for over a decade, but now it's time to cry for Sirius. Unless I hear Jo saying "Yes, they are a gay couple", or I read something in th next 2 books that leaves no doubt as a passionate kiss or "yes Harry, Sirius and I have been in love for 20 years", I won't buy it. All the ideas I've read don't lead me to a gay relaionship, and I am very paranoid and always think a completely different story for each character, I even thought Sam in LOTR was in love with Frodo, but then he got married so my theory pretty much died. 21 days!!! Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From brianna_hp2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 20:53:05 2005 From: brianna_hp2 at yahoo.com (Brianna Sautter) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Petunia a witch? Message-ID: <20050624205305.34934.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131382 I am not sure what to make of JKR's statement about Petunia, but I've always wondered about her kitchen. It's sparkling clean. I've thought about it being unnaturally clean, and wondered if magic was involved. But this portrait of Petunia could simply be a joke on the bored and meaningless life of a suburban housewife. What also made me wonder about Petunia is that she was unhappy about her sister being a witch, while her parents were delighted. Did she then marry the ultimate muggle to spite her parents? And, does she know any of Lily's old friends? I wonder if this character is going to have to pick up a wand to defend her family, and be capable of some real magic. Brianna ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 24 21:50:18 2005 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:50:18 -0000 Subject: That Night at Godric's Hollow - a discussion of what I'll be looking out Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131383 There's a lot of speculation that what happened the night that the Potters were killed at Godric's Hollow may be the Chapter One of HBP that's been 13 years in the brewing. If this is correct then I will be very interested in looking out for any hints that the person who makes the final stand against Voldemort to protect Lily and Harry isn't James. (This is a theory that arose from the flashback in the PS/SS film. As JKR wrote this herself, according to an interview in Empire Online with Columbus, I take it as canon. In the flashback Geraldine Somerville and a child are shown, but the audience just sees the black-clad arm and hand of the person standing in front of her. Also the cast list is in order of appearance but Adrian Rawlins is not credited alongside Geraldine Somerville. He is credited much later. This implies that Adrian Rawlins only played James in the Mirror of Erised scene, not the Godric's Hollow scene.) I'll be particularly scrutinising the attribution of the man's dialogue in chapter one. If it is followed by things like James said or replied James, then it will confirm that the person with Lily was Harry's father. If, however, there are no qualifying tags to indicate the name of the speaker then I will consider that this does not rule out the possibility that it isn't James, but is A. N. Other. If it is A. N. Other, then I support the theory that it was Snape. (To recap, the canon argument for Snape being there is that originally Dumbledore was tipped off by a spy that the Potters were in danger, and we know Snape was a spy. If he was trying to protect Lily and James, on finding out that the Secret Keeper had told Voldemort of their whereabouts, it would be logical for Snape to have gone to Godric's Hollow to warn them. However he may have been disbelieved by James. It's suggested that Snape's comment to Harry in POA, "You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black" may be evidence of this. From the film there's a suggestion that the disembodied hand looks like Alan Rickman's hand, but having scrutinised the flashback several times, the shot is too blurry and brief to make any positive identification.) Even if we get a line like "'James', cried Lily" (because there's a suggestion that this is what Geraldine Somerville is mouthing in the film, although other theories are that it is help or help me), if the male speaker is not definitively identified as James, I still think it is open to interpretation. Also if the man uses an Invisibility Cloak, then I think that means he is not James, even though Harry and the reader associate this item with his father. Back in PS Dumbledore said James gave the cloak to him before he went into hiding, so he can't use it, because he doesn't have it. However I suspect most child and non-fan adult readers will have forgotten this fact. Finally even if the scene portrays Voldemort blasting the man with a spell and the man falling to the ground, I will still not be convinced that it is James being killed, unless JKR explicitly uses terms like "dead", "dying", "killed" or "murdered". If I recall correctly, there is a scene in one of Agatha Christie's books in which someone appears to be shot in the leg, and she describes the visible effect in terms of a flow of red. She does not explicitly mention blood, but the reader jumps to the conclusion that it is blood. Later in the book this assumption is proved to be illusionary. JKR has already proved herself to be good at misdirection and may want the reader to believe one thing when what is actually happening is different. Of course on 16 July chapter one might turn out to be something totally different JoTwo From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 24 21:51:23 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:51:23 -0000 Subject: SHIP - SB/RL In-Reply-To: <20050624210622.26299.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131384 I think what we have here is a classic case of HoYay*. There is (usually) nothing in it, but the yay! factor makes people look for things 'between the lines' - because it's fun - (yay)! I think the attraction of it comes from the idea that the love must be secret, and secret love is intense, exciting, sexy and passionate (yay). All you need is some intensity of emotion between two people, and you may let your mind create the rest (if you want). It doesn't matter if there is only the slightest bit of evidence - in fact, the less evidence there is, the more secret the love, and hence the more fun it is (yay!). But if that's not you're cup of tea, then just say HoNay (or HoNo) and get back to other matters. I personally don't think that JKR originally designed Sirius and Remus to be gay, but given the way things have panned out, she may just humour the HoYay fans a little longer, unless she has some plot point which requires sinking the ship... JLV xx ----------------------------------------------------------------- *HoYay: short for "Homoeroticism, Yay!," a celebration of textual and subtextual homoeroticism Cross reference televisionwithoutpity.com forums Just for reference, some common sources of HoYay: Lord of the Rings Brideshead Revisited Top Gun Smallville Spartacus The Shawshank Redemption. HoYay city, that one. From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 24 21:53:11 2005 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:53:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's parents - was it in the stars? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131385 Even before JKR started posting the dates on her web site, many fans enjoyed playing guessing games about various characters' birthdays. This wasn't just because of a liking for as much "factual" information as possible but because fans were trying to match characterisations to western astrological star or sun signs. Each sign of the zodiac describes an archetypal personality. Now, sceptics point out that there can't be any validity in this system of classifying personality types, as how can one-twelfth of the people in the world be the same just because they were born between particular dates? Astrologers counter this by arguing that the sun sign descriptions are broad-brush generalisations, and to assess an individual they would draw up a birth chart, which would be modified by unique factors like the exact time of birth and the angles between planets. Whether astrology is true in the real world is however irrelevant in the Harry Potter universe. What matters is that it is a well-known source of personality typing and I think that JKR has drawn on it in creating her characters. For instance, Virgos are supposed to be perfectionists and worriers, and this can certainly be applied to Hermione whose birthday is 12 September. Sagittarians allegedly like the outdoors and are blunt-spoken, which fits December-born Hagrid. Snape believes in enforcing rules and is the head of Slytherin House, associated with ambition. These traits are typical for Capricorn, which is Snape's sign. Another influence on JKR is alchemy. Although I do not interpret the Harry Potter series solely as an alchemical allegory, there are references to alchemy throughout. For example, alchemy features animal symbolism, like the stag and the phoenix, that are familiar to JKR's readers. The different stages of the alchemical process are referred to as different colours, such as the albedo (white) and rubedo (red) stage. These are echoed in the names Albus Dumbledore and Rubeus Hagrid. So, working from the premises that JKR has used astrological and alchemical stereotypes I'm going to attempt to guess the star signs of Harry's parents. Starting with James, we know that on the day of the DADA Owl on which he tormented and humiliated Snape, that James was 15. In the British examination system, on which Hogwarts is modelled, the public exams are taken at the end of May and the beginning of June. As in the real world, pupils take their fifth year exams in the academic year in which they turn 16. An academic year in England runs from 1st September until 31st August in the following calendar year. From this we can deduce that as James was still only 15, he can only logically have been born under one of the following signs: Gemini c 22 May - 21 June, Cancer c 22 June - 22 July, Leo c 23 July - 23 August, or in the earliest part of Virgo c 24 August - 31 August. (Please note that the start and end dates of signs are sometimes given slightly differently by astrologers. This is because the time when the sun leaves one sign and enters the next varies slightly each year. However, for my purposes in this essay, the precise changeover does not matter. Virgo, of course, continues till c 22 September, but this is not relevant to this theory either.) Out of all these signs I think Leo fits James best. The negative stereotype for Leo is that they are arrogant and they love being the centre of attention. This certainly describes James as portrayed in Snape's Worst Memory. He's convinced that he's gained an Outstanding grade in the DADA Owl. He's a big headed show-off. Firstly, he is playing with the Snitch and lapping up Peter's adulation. Then he begins publicly bullying Snape, culminating in claiming he's going to take off Snape's underpants in front of his audience. Of course, Leos have positive qualities associated with them too. They are described as charming and likeable. James was the height of cool among his peers and Madam Rosmerta thought he was amusing. He was well liked by Sirius, Remus, Dumbledore and Hagrid, who all speak highly of him. Leos are also supposed to be brave. James was sorted into Gryffindor, the House where courage is valued. As an adult he fought for the Order of the Phoenix and defied Voldemort three times, which suggests that he possessed, as well as admired, courage. To refer to somebody as lion-hearted means they are brave, and the lion is the symbol that represents Leo, and which JKR may have borrowed for Gryffindor. Leos are often said to behave irresponsibly in their youth but to take on responsibility and leadership as they grow up. This fits James, who went from school bully to head Boy. Leo is traditionally the sign of Fatherhood. Its ruling planet, the sun, is associated with fatherhood too. James' primary role in canon is to be the father of the hero. Thus timing, personality type and symbolism all point to James being a Leo. When Lily's birthday falls is not implicit in canon, as it was for James. Harry and the reader are not told whether she was still 15 or had turned 16 in Snape's Worst Memory. However I think her character and plot function do give clues to her star sign. From this, I suspect that Lily may have been a Cancerian. Cancer is the archetypal sign of motherhood. The moon, its ruler, is also linked with feminine traits, including motherhood. Obviously Lily is the hero's mother. As is often pointed out, Harry only survived Voldemort's killing curse because Lily loved him so much that she sacrificed herself for him. Cancerians are also supposed to be protective in general. This fits with Lily defending Snape when he was being bullied. There is a whole system of underlying correspondences between different objects that are considered to share a similar quality in astrology and indeed in the theory of magic generally. Moon-ruled Cancer has things that are silver and white associated with it. Many books about astrology state that white flowers are associated with Cancer, particularly the lily. This could be a co-incidence, but knowing how much effort JKR puts into choosing names for characters that reflect their personality and role in the plot it may well be deliberate and significant. So, for me, there are hints that imply Lily was born under Cancer. However, what about the fact that Lily was a Gryffindor? For James I argued that the symbol of the house correlated with Leo. Also the characteristic of bravery equally applies to Lily. She was the only one who stood up to the popular, cool kids when they were bullying an isolated, unpopular student. Lily was a member of the Order who personally defied Voldemort thrice. I agree that Leo could be an alternative for Harry's mother, especially if you subscribe to the theory that James and Lily equals Harry and Ginny. The latter pair are both Leos and they physically resemble the Potters. However the Harry is like James argument took a battering in OOP. Harry has never bullied anyone and was appalled to witness his father doing so. He was more like Lily in that he had compassion at the end for Luna. Also the dynamics of the James/Lily ship and the potential for a Harry/Ginny ship are completely different. James liked Lily but she initially disliked him. She only started going out with him in seventh year after he had deflated his head a bit. Ginny had a crush on a famous boy who never really noticed her, which she has now grown out of. Harry, so far, has only had a romantic interest in Cho, and is only friendlier with Ginny now because she can now speak to him and she is part of his surrogate family, the Weasleys. The Cancerian and Leonine traits in Lily could be reconciled. If someone is born on the cusp i.e. near to the date of the change of signs, it is often believed that they are a mixture or both signs. Astrologers usually say that this isn't possible because you are either one sign or the other. However JKR is probably not an expert astrologer so perhaps Lily is a Cancerian who was born on the Cancer/Leo cusp. If James was a Leo and Lily's sign was Cancer then this would fit with a major source of symbolism within canon: alchemy. The sun and the moon are the respective rulers of Leo and Cancer. Sun and moon are often mentioned in alchemical texts. Often they represent a union of opposites. For example, there is an illustration from an alchemical manuscript, Splendor Solis by Trismosin, called The Sacred Marriage. This shows a King and Queen, with sun and moon shining over their heads. In alchemy, often a divine child was born of the marriage of King and Queen. Sometimes this child was identified with the Stone itself, as described in another alchemical text, The Emerald Tablet, that stated, "the said stone is born of First matter. The sun is its father, the Moon its mother." Although alchemy in Harry Potter is described in traditional magical terms as the quest to turn base metal into gold and to make the elixir of life that confers immortality, it is often interpreted in psychological and spiritual terms. While some alchemists concentrated on trying to achieve physical transmutations, other alchemical adepts interpreted it as a code that gave secret information about a spiritual quest. In this reading the moon/Queen/mother represented intuition and feeling and the sun/King/father symbolised reason and intellect. Both modes of perception had to be in harmonious balance in the alchemist so that his soul (or in psychological language, his consciousness) could develop and gain true wisdom. I'm not one of those people who interpret every character and event in Harry Potter as part of an alchemical allegory but I think the idea that the plot is about the protagonist's spiritual growth is partly true. In this case, then the marriage of James and Lily represents the union of the solar and lunar principles. The child of this union, Harry, represents the soul/consciousness that seeks knowledge. To reiterate my conclusions, I predict that James was a Leo and Lily was born under Cancer. If only JKR would tell us when their birthdays were. I hope I have guessed right, but if JKR had something different in mind I'd stand corrected. After all, remember how most of fandom thought Snape was a Scorpio JoTwo From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 24 21:55:35 2005 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:55:35 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Hags Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131386 Harry and the Hags In The Sorcerer's Companion A Guide to the Magical World of Harry Potter by Allan Zola Kronzck and Elizabeth Kronzck I read the following entry. "The British Isles are said to be populated by a great variety of hags. Some are benevolent spirits associated with harvests and spinning, others are witchlike figures who torment and even eat people The most famous hag in England is Black Annis, an one-eyed cannibal with blue skin, long white teeth, and claws of iron. She is said to dwell in the hills of Leicestershire, in a cave she carved from the rocky terrain with her own fingernails. In front of her cave stands a great old oak tree, in which she sits to survey the countryside in search of prey. When a tasty-looking child comes into sight, she swoops down and has a feast. When not in the tree, Black Annis is often seen sitting at the mouth of her cave, perched atop a pile of her victim's bones." As most fans know, JKR features many creatures from folklore in her books, and this includes hags. For example, one of Gilderoy Lockhart's works of fiction was called Holidays with Hags; Hagrid said that Quirrell had a "nasty bit o' trouble with a hag"; and when staying at The Leaky Cauldron Harry spotted "what looked suspiciously like a hag, who ordered a plate of raw liver from behind a thick woollen balaclava". Hags have featured in the canon outside the novels. Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them mentions a disastrous summit between wizards and other magical beings organised by Burdock Muldoon, Chief of the Wizards' Council. Among the chaos caused by a variety of creatures, "hags glided about the place in search of children to eat". This shows JKR is aware of the bad reputation of hags. She has also alluded to it in the newsletters called The Daily Prophet that were sent to members of an early fan club organised by Bloomsbury, and which, according to the Harry Potter Lexicon, were written by JKR herself. One Daily Prophet contained a letter from someone called Black Annis. She was not the only hag involved in correspondence. Another sent in a missive entitled "A word in support of hags", in which she tried to sound friendly but ended by offering babysitting services. There was also an article about a Professor Regulus Moonshine who claimed to have developed a potion that reduces the appetite for human flesh in hags. There are also Famous Hag Cards. JKR confirmed on her web site that she wrote the original Famous Wizard Cards, but I don't know if she wrote these as well. Some of them are twists on fairy tales. One particularly caught my attention. "Somnolens, Leticia This spiteful hag was jealous of the king's daughter and caused her to prick her finger on a spindle tainted with a Draught of the Living Death. A young wizard who had smeared his lips with Wiggenweld potion kissed the princess and brought her out of her trance." This is obviously based on Sleeping Beauty. Going off at a tangent, the reference to an antidote to the Draught of Living Death struck me as interesting. I wonder if it will appear in the novels. To weld also means to join, so I wonder if Wiggenweld potion doubles as a love potion. The offspring of a muggle princess and a wizard would be half-bloods, but it's probably a wild flight of fantasy to speculate if this has anything to do with the ancestry of the half-blood prince. Maybe coming slightly more down to earth, Chapter Two of the HBP is called Spinners End. I wonder if there is any connection to the spinning done by hags. We will find out soon enough. In a wider debate, there has been discussion about which side in the second war magical creatures like the centaurs, goblins and merpeople will support. I don't think anyone has really discussed what part hags might play. Given that JKR has already emphasised their flesh- eating tendencies I have had the idea that Voldemort may try and recruit them into his army of Dark creatures. Maybe he will offer them the chance to eat people. As they are supposed to devour children, perhaps he would use them in the attack that most fans are convinced that he will make on Hogwarts. I know this is a gruesome possibility, but it's not far removed from the traditional role attributed to hags. The alternative is that JKR may spring another surprise on the readers and turn the reputation of a Dark creature on its head. If I were asked to suggest candidates for this I would choose either vampires or hags. Indeed, one of the Famous Wizard Cards features Honoria Nutcombe, founder of the Society for the Reformation of Hags. As several of the characters featured on these cards did something relevant to canon e. g. Felix Summerbee, inventor of Cheering Charms, Ignatia Wildsmith, inventor of Floo Powder, maybe Honoria is significant too. Let's hope that the Society has done its work well and that the hags remain neutral at least, or even join the good side. That's all the possibilities that I can come up with. Whether any will turn out to be correct, it's a case of wait and see. JoTwo From ewe2 at 4dot0.net Fri Jun 24 22:01:54 2005 From: ewe2 at 4dot0.net (ewe2) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:01:54 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050624220154.GK13521@4dot0.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131387 Me too! Draco to Lucius: Hey Dad, what does Death taste like? Auughh!! Snape to McGonigall: Here, let me buy you another butterbeer. Apparently Lupin means wolf... DD to Fawkes: Why are you disguised as a ham on rye sandwich? I can't threaten Voldemort with a SNACK?! Hermione to Percy: You know, we've got a lot in common, wanna date? Tonks to Anyone: Sorry, sorry. Didn't see you in that chair in the corner there. Can't think how I managed to spill boiling soup on you from the kitchen. How was I to know about that loose floorboard. MoM Customer service to Voldemort: Thankyou for calling our customer service, we value your call! Please choose from our quick and easy menu. For evil plans to overthrow the WW, please press 1. For dastardly alliances with horrible monsters, please press 2. For picking the most obvious way for Harry to defeat you, please press 3. To return to the main menu please press 4. To have a customer service representative attend your fireplace, please press 5. All our Floos are full and our operators are busy. Please hold the fire and an operator will be with you as soon as possible. Thankyou for your patience! [insert infuriatingly cheerful music here] Lupin to Harry: Well Harry, DD asked me to fill you in on a few details about my past and your parents. Did you know that Lupin means "wolf"? (duck) Ewe2. -- sed awk grep cat dd ..Im a luser baby ,so why don't you killall -kill me. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 22:11:18 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:11:18 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131388 >>Alla: >I would absolutely agree that for plot purposes Harry and us, readers, do not see good Slytherin, but I think that those Slytherins which Harry already SAW are evaluated quite objectively, be it Harry POV or not.< Betsy Hp: Yes, but what Slytherins have we seen? Other than Draco and Pansy have we heard any of the Slytherins of Harry's class say one word? Has Pansy said anything that implies a blood bias? Has any Slytherin said anything that implies a blood bias? IIRC the *only* Slytherin we hear saying anything about blood purity is Draco, and we've been clearly shown, IMO, that Draco learnt all of his bias at his father's knee. (I'm not including Death Eaters in this because it seems like a blood bias is a prerequisite to joining up.) So yes, we've evaluated what Draco has said objectively, and it's certainly a bad ideology -- but do we know for sure that it's a specifically *Slytherin* ideology? Do we know for sure that it's the *defining* ideology of Slytherin? I would submit that we know neither of those things, because Harry doesn't really know *any* Slytherin at all. >>Alla: >I mean, we primarily saw Draco and his chronies as representatives of Slytherins, right?< Betsy Hp: We see Draco and friends as *members* of Slytherin, but when Draco (who again, is I believe the only Slytherin we've heard spouting on about blood bias) says what he says is he really speaking for his entire house? Do Slytherins strike you as the sort of people to elect a twelve year old (the age Draco really starts to let loose his venom) to be their house representative? >>Alla: >So, yes, I think what Harry saw in Slytherin House he evaluates quite objectively.< Betsy Hp: But what has Harry seen of Slytherin house? Nothing, really. He barely knows the names of his Slytherin class-mates. (Pansy apparently has a whole circle of Slytherin girls she runs with and I don't think we know a single name.) The Slytherin he *does* know sort of is Draco. And he judges the entire house on him. Not very fair to my mind, and not really all that objective. >>Alla: >Look, regardless of who would be describing Draco's spitting "Mudblood" at Hermione, be it McGonagall, Hagrid, Harry, or Snape, it would be quite enough for me to think that Slytherin's ideas equal "BAD" ideas.< Betsy Hp: But how do you know that Draco's ideas are supported and encouraged by Slytherin? Again, we have more evidence that Draco's bias has been taught to him by his family than his house. We've heard Lucius Malfoy tell his son that he should be ashamed of being beaten by a muggle-born. We've never seen a Slytherin prefect or Snape telling Draco that muggle-borns are bad. So why should we assume that Draco's ideas come from his house? >>Alla: >It may be unfair to think of the whole house when I only hear Draco, but again, I have not met other Slytherins yet, not really.< Betsy Hp: Exactly! It's just as fair to judge Slytherin solely by Draco's actions as it is to judge Gryffindor soley by, for example, how we saw Percy acting in OotP, or by Hermione's actions with regards to the Hogwarts house-elves (trying to trick them into their freedom). >>Alla: >And believe me, I had absolutely no negative feelings towards either Ravenclaws in general or Hufflepuffs in general before we met Luna or Cedric. >Slytherin House pretty much stood up to me as house of racists, fascists, antisemits ( pick any RL equivalent you want).< Betsy Hp: Because *Harry* never had any negative thoughts towards Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, except to think both houses rather spiritless and boring. But he did and does have huge negative thoughts towards Slytherin. And Draco fulfilled his worst imaginations. But since Draco *is* Slytherin to Harry, no other view point stood a chance. And as such, we've not heard from a single other Slytherin *except* for Draco. And it's a bit much to judge an entire house based on one member, IMO. Betsy Hp From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 22:23:17 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:23:17 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131389 > >>Alla: > >It may be unfair to think of the whole house when I only hear > Draco, but again, I have not met other Slytherins yet, not really.< > > Betsy Hp: > Exactly! It's just as fair to judge Slytherin solely by Draco's > actions as it is to judge Gryffindor soley by, for example, how we > saw Percy acting in OotP, or by Hermione's actions with regards to > the Hogwarts house-elves (trying to trick them into their freedom). Alla: OK, Betsy I feel like we are arguing in circles. I am OPEN to the idea of good Slytherin, really. I just do not see how Harry can have a better opinion of Slytherins , if all what he saw is Draco and his chronies. I am only objecting to the idea that Harry is biased to the Slytherins he saw. I AGREE with you that Harry did not see all Slytherins yet, I just disagree that what he has a twisted POV as to what he already saw. > Betsy Hp: But he did and does have huge negative thoughts towards > Slytherin. And Draco fulfilled his worst imaginations. But since > Draco *is* Slytherin to Harry, no other view point stood a chance. > And as such, we've not heard from a single other Slytherin *except* > for Draco. And it's a bit much to judge an entire house based on > one member, IMO. Alla: I think you have my train of thought backwards. I do not believe that Harry was predisposed to dislike Slytherin BEFORE he met Draco. I believe that Harry dislikes Slytherins BECAUSE he met Draco and THAT I believe is a very rational thing to do. Again, I AGREE that Harry will see that not all Slytherins are as bad as Draco is, but for now in my mind Draco is the typical representative of House Slytherin simply because I did not see anything to the contrary. Well, no, I guess the fact that some Slytherins drank to Cedric's memory could be seen as good sign, but it could also be seen as them being scared of Dumbledore. JMO, Alla. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 00:38:26 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:38:26 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin - Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > >>Alla: > > >It may be unfair to think of the whole house when I only hear > > Draco, but again, I have not met other Slytherins yet, not > > really.< > > Betsy Hp: > > Exactly! It's just as fair to judge Slytherin solely by Draco's > > actions as it is to judge Gryffindor soley by, for example, how we > > saw Percy .. > Alla: > > OK, Betsy I feel like we are arguing in circles. > > I am OPEN to the idea of good Slytherin, really. I just do not see > how Harry can have a better opinion of Slytherins , if all what he > saw is Draco and his chronies. > > Betsy Hp: > > But he did and does have huge negative thoughts towards > > Slytherin. And Draco fulfilled his worst imaginations. But since > > Draco *is* Slytherin to Harry, no other view point stood a chance. > > ... > Alla: > > I think you have my train of thought backwards. > > I do not believe that Harry was predisposed to dislike Slytherin > BEFORE he met Draco. I believe that Harry dislikes Slytherins > BECAUSE he met Draco and THAT I believe is a very rational thing > to do. > > Again, I AGREE that Harry will see that not all Slytherins are as > bad as Draco is, but for now in my mind Draco is the typical > representative of House Slytherin simply because I did not see > anything to the contrary. > > ... > > > JMO, > > Alla. bboyminn with general comments: Hummm.... tricky business this good Slytherin thing. First I don't think /good/ means good, I think it means /not bad/; not hopelessly evil. To illustrate, if Draco is redeemed, he will still be a jerk, he'll just be a jerk who is not on Voldemort's side. The same is true of other Slytherins, just because they don't support Voldemort, just because they don't actively oppose Harry, doesn't mean that are all going to break out into a rousing chorus of 'A Spoon Full of Sugar'. Slytherin probably are selfish and ambitious, which is exactly how they got into that House. The probably do lean toward believing that there is something to being a pureblood. But there are all kinds of people who elevate themselves for a variety of harmless reason. Some people in the USA take great status in saying there ancestors came over on the Mayflower. Personally, I just discovered that a relative on my father's side of the family signed the Declaration of Independance. In Europe, being related to Royalty carries a lot of status and pride. Even being able to classify yourself as an 'aristocrat', whatever that means, carries pride and status. Being able to take pride in being Pureblood isn't really any different that taking pride in being among the aristocracy. Yes... yes.. I know everyone equates it with racism, and for Draco that is true, but for other Slytherins, rather than being a psychotic obssession, it may simply be a point of pride. So, how do we know that other Slytherin are not as deranged, obssessed and nasty as Draco, because of the very fact that Harry doesn't know them. If they were in-his-face, if they were causing him problems, he would sure enough know who they are. The fact that they are not, tells me that they are minding their own business. It further implies that when the chips are finally down, they will not necesarily side with Draco. It's also possible for the other Slytherins to be nearly a ruthless, greedy, and cunning as Draco, but to also realize that if their parents aren't among the rank and file Death Eaters, then Voldemort winning spells economic ruin for their very ambitious plans to get stinking rich. Any smart ambitious business person know that if the world is taken over by a psychotic deranged dictator it's never good for business. The corrupt and powerful at the top get stinking rich, but that wealth comes at the economic detriment of everyone else. If I'm an ambitious Slytherin, that doesn't sound like a good plan to me. There is plenty of room for the 'good' Slytherin to be generally /not nice/, and still not support Voldemort. If they don't support Voldemort, then cooperation with the rest of the wizard world is to their advantage. That in turn mean they work for the good guys, which in turn makes them 'good' Slytherins even if they are not nice Slytherins. In a sense, good Slytherins are simply Slytherins who will not follow Draco or Voldemort. It certainly does not mean that they will be showering Harry with warn hugs and kisses. Search for the answer in the shades of grey, not in pure black and white. Just one man's opinion. Steve/bboyminn From rzl46 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 01:00:58 2005 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 01:00:58 -0000 Subject: FAQ Poll answer (the old one) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131391 Please forgive me this message. I've been out of the country for a while, and have been away from the internet. I enjoyed the break from the world of superconnectiveness until I returned to discover that JKR had answered the poll question that I felt I had been waiting years to read and that the answer was no longer posted on her site. I searched her site to the best of my dial up capabilites and have searched the posts here. I've found commentary on her response, but not the actual response. If any of you have a copy of her answer, or can direct me to a copy, I'd be very grateful. Thanks, MaggieB From cottell at dublin.ie Sat Jun 25 01:19:51 2005 From: cottell at dublin.ie (muscatel1988) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 01:19:51 -0000 Subject: FAQ Poll answer (the old one) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131392 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > Please forgive me this message. I've been out of the country for a > while, and have been away from the internet. I enjoyed the break from > the world of superconnectiveness until I returned to discover that JKR > had answered the poll question that I felt I had been waiting years to > read and that the answer was no longer posted on her site. I searched > her site to the best of my dial up capabilites and have searched the > posts here. I've found commentary on her response, but not the actual > response. If any of you have a copy of her answer, or can direct me > to a copy, I'd be very grateful. > > Thanks, > > MaggieB Mugglenet has an archive of old polls here: http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrcom/faqpollarchive.shtml From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 02:35:21 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 02:35:21 -0000 Subject: Prophecies always come true. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131393 I think we were discussing this a while back. Didn't someone mention Macbeth. I like the theory that prophecies always do come true, but that they are generally misunderstood. As has been mentioned, they are worded so vaguely. We don't even know if we've heard the whole version yet. Except for Trelawney's predictions that Harry would die, some of her "insights' actually do come true in a way. For example, when she sees the Grim in POA. Maybe it wasn't the Grim at all, it was Sirius and she misinterpreted it. When we hear a Prophecy we immediately put our own interpretation on it, when in reality it may be about something else entirely that we would never have guessed. For example, "neither can live while the other survives". Does that mean in a literal "live or die" sense, or is it in a "live life to its fullest" sense. I bet we will be surprised. IMO Harry should do what he feels is right and disregard the prophecy. In the long run that may fulfill it more than we could guess. Maybe, Bonnie From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 03:17:28 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 03:17:28 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131394 >>Alla: >I am OPEN to the idea of good Slytherin, really. I just do not see how Harry can have a better opinion of Slytherins , if all what he saw is Draco and his chronies. >I am only objecting to the idea that Harry is biased to the Slytherins he saw. I AGREE with you that Harry did not see all Slytherins yet, I just disagree that what he has a twisted POV as to what he already saw. >I do not believe that Harry was predisposed to dislike Slytherin BEFORE he met Draco. I believe that Harry dislikes Slytherins BECAUSE he met Draco and THAT I believe is a very rational thing to do.< Betsy Hp: Ah, I think I'm clearer on where you're coming from. Yes, Draco did nothing to help his house in any of his meetings with Harry. He (rather ignorantly) managed to push all of Harry's buttons in their first two meetings, and it was all down hill from there. Of course, Draco was helped along by Hagrid and Ron and Professor Snape as well. So, no, Harry's views weren't formed in a vacuum. But Harry (and his friends it seems like) have written the entire house off as Death Eaters in training and that's a mistake, IMO. (And apparently the Sorting Hat's too .) Actually, that's why I'm thinking it's going to be big-bangy type of situation that will reveal the Harry's "good Slytherin". Because Harry is so *set* in his dislike of the entire house I feel like it'll take something fairly spectacular for him to finally realize that being Slytherin does not automatically mean evil. >>Alla: >Again, I AGREE that Harry will see that not all Slytherins are as bad as Draco is, but for now in my mind Draco is the typical representative of House Slytherin simply because I did not see anything to the contrary.< Betsy Hp: And this is a view I could *never* agree with. Not in a universe as beautifully grey as JKRs. For one, Draco is such a *bad* Slytherin. There's nothing cunning about him, so it's hard for me to judge him as a "typical" Slytherin (though I agree that Harry does see him this way). For another, judging a house by the behavior of one student is just... you can see that it's unfair right? And *especially* since JKR has already taken such delight in knocking down stereotypes she sets up for the other houses (not to mention the twists and turns she likes to take her characters through) that I think it's slightly dangerous to think Slytherin will stay the cartoony, mustache- twirling villains Harry has painted them as being. And it's not that the Slytherins will decide mustache-twirling is so twenty years ago. I think *Harry* will have to let go of some of his preconceptions regarding Slytherin. >>Alla: >Well, no, I guess the fact that some Slytherins drank to Cedric's memory could be seen as good sign, but it could also be seen as them being scared of Dumbledore.< Betsy Hp: Try *all* of them. Dumbledore asks everyone to stand and raise a glass to Cedric, and *everyone* does. "They did it, all of them; the benches scraped as everyone in the Hall stood, and raised their goblets, and echoed, in one loud, low, rumbling voice, "Cedric Diggory." (GoF hardback, scholastic p.721) The Slytherins, many of them, do not stand for *Harry*. But from their point of view Harry is a glory-seeking, suck-up, a constant thorn in the side of their head of house, an obvious favorite of Dumbledore, and a spoiled little rich kid who's always sporting the latest broom with which he's able to out-play their own Seeker. Heck, by the time school starts up again, one of Harry's own dorm mates doubts the story Dumbledore gave at the closing feast. I doubt Seamus would have stood for Harry if the closing feast speech had been given at the beginning of their fifth year. >>bboyminn: >Hummm.... tricky business this good Slytherin thing. First I don't think /good/ means good, I think it means /not bad/; not hopelessly evil. >To illustrate, if Draco is redeemed, he will still be a jerk, he'll just be a jerk who is not on Voldemort's side. The same is true of other Slytherins, just because they don't support Voldemort, just because they don't actively oppose Harry, doesn't mean that are all going to break out into a rousing chorus of 'A Spoon Full of Sugar'.< Betsy Hp: I totally agree. We can see this in the "good Slytherins" already shown. Neither Snape nor Nigellus would sing anything to anybody, I imagine . However, I do take issue with the idea that no Slytherin could *ever* be sweetly good. (Actually, there's something a bit Slytherin in Mary Poppins herself, wouldn't you say? ) I feel like all four houses are, in the end, rather neutral with the talents they look for. I think you could sift through each house and find wonderfully good people and horribly bad people. That's part of why I enjoy the books. Nothing automatically predisposes someone to be good or evil. But, just as various members of the other three houses have been varied in their reactions to Harry and his fight with Voldemort (Smith vs. Macmillan, Cho vs. Luna, Seamus vs. Neville) I'm sure there will be varied reactions within Slytherin house as well. Some may welcome the chance to come on board, some may sneer at Harry a bit, some may decide to join Voldemort. But what I'm hoping for is that not every new recruit for Voldemort is a Slytherin. Betsy Hp From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 04:40:49 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 04:40:49 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131395 > Betsy Hp: > But Harry (and his friends it seems like) have written the entire > house off as Death Eaters in training and that's a mistake, IMO. (And > apparently the Sorting Hat's too .) Alla: And I am saying that IF this is a mistake, there was no way Harry could NOT make it. I hate explaining it by plot related reasons, but I see no other explanations. Betsy: Because Harry is so *set* in his dislike of the entire house I feel like it'll take something fairly spectacular for him to finally realize that being Slytherin does not automatically mean evil. Alla: It may very well be, but as Potioncat once said ( I think) all out theories could be very wrong and it may be that good Slytherin will never appear at all. :-) > >>Alla wrote earlier: Again, I AGREE that Harry will see that not all Slytherins are as bad as Draco is, but for now in my mind Draco is the typical representative of House Slytherin simply because I did not see anything to the contrary.< > Betsy Hp: And this is a view I could *never* agree with. Not in a universe as beautifully grey as JKRs. For one, Draco is such a *bad* Slytherin. There's nothing cunning about him, so it's hard for me to judge him as a "typical" Slytherin (though I agree that Harry does see him this way). Alla: JKR's universe may be grey, but as I said before I think that "good" and "bad" defined very clearly and if she decided to define "Slytherin" as bad ( I doubt it, but I think it is entirely possible), I can live with it. :-) And, NO, I don't think that Draco is not cunning, I think he is a VERY typical Slytherin in that aspect. Him milking his injury from Buckbeak is a good example of that, IMO. Betsy: For another, judging a house by the behavior of one student is > just... you can see that it's unfair right? Alla: Yes. I answered that question several times already. Betsy HP: That's part of why I enjoy the > books. Nothing automatically predisposes someone to be good or evil. Alla: And about that I am not so sure. I think character disposition plays a very big part in 'potterverse", but for the better explanation of that I really need Nora. :-) Just my opinion, Alla. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 05:38:18 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:38:18 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131396 >>Alla: >And I am saying that IF this is a mistake, there was no way Harry could NOT make it. I hate explaining it by plot related reasons, but I see no other explanations.< Betsy Hp: I agree with this. There's no way Harry could have had a good impression of Slytherin. And after all, there *is* the shadow of Voldemort over Slytherin. I also think JKR sees more general leadership qualities in the Gryffindor traits. While I do see some very Slytherin aspects in Harry, I think it's important that it's his Gryffindor tendencies that have come to the fore. However, I think it'll be a part of his coming of age for Harry to see something positive in Slytherin (and maybe in that side of himself?). >>Alla: >It may very well be, but as Potioncat once said ( I think) all out theories could be very wrong and it may be that good Slytherin will never appear at all. :-)< Betsy Hp: That's true too. Though, again, I think JKR has worked too hard to give her universe nuance to suddenly plunk down a gigantic block of cartoonish simplicity. I'm also fairly certain some serious foreshadowing occured in OotP's Sorting Hat song chapter. I'm not positive on who the "good Slytherin" will be, but I'm pretty certain one will appear. (Honestly, if one doesn't appear and we're left with the impression that children are designated as good or evil at age eleven... Well, it'll sour my view of the books, I think.) >>Alla: >JKR's universe may be grey, but as I said before I think that "good" and "bad" defined very clearly and if she decided to define "Slytherin" as bad ( I doubt it, but I think it is entirely possible), I can live with it. :-)< Betsy Hp: Well, in that I doubt Dumbledore will suddenly turn out evil or that Voldemort will suddenly be shown as the savior of the WW, I agree. However, in other ways I don't think JKR is all that clear in her defining of good and evil. Take the House of Black. From every vile thing Mrs. Black's portrait spouts (far worse than anything Draco has said) it seems that the Black family is bad to the bone. And yet Regulus, the "proper" Black son, died trying to leave Voldemort. Sirius tells Harry that his parents thought Voldemort went too far. So are they evil? They're cetainly not good. JKR makes it clear that their views are racist and wrong, and yet they *didn't* side with the bad guy. Or look at James. He's a good guy, we all know that. But he instigates one of the worst cases of school bulling we've seen displayed in the series. His attack on Snape echoes the attack of the Death Eaters on the Muggle family in GoF. James is definitely behaving badly (far worse than anything Draco has ever done) and yet, James is one of the good guys. So for all the subtle layers JKR has brought to the concept of good and bad or good and evil, I just can't her agreeing that an entire house at Hogwarts is full stop evil. It doesn't fit with anything else she's done so far. I can see the house being tainted and needing to be cleansed (for want of a better word), but I don't think JKR means to throw Slytherin completely out. >>Alla: >And, NO, I don't think that Draco is not cunning, I think he is a VERY typical Slytherin in that aspect. Him milking his injury from Buckbeak is a good example of that, IMO.< Betsy Hp: Heh, and I see that as a *lack* of cunning. Seriously, how many people did Draco fool? Cunning implies a certain subtlety. I don't think Draco has *ever* been subtle. You can see Draco coming from a mile away. He makes sure of that. And he makes sure that everyone knows exactly where he stands. Actually, in some ways, Draco's need to express his opinion and put his enemies on notice, no matter what hot water those views may land him in strike me as almost Gryffindorish. He's like an old-fashioned Southern aristocrat, slapping his foe in the face with his gloves and insisting on pistols at dawn. Not that I'm saying his plots and plans against Harry and friends are *good*, but I don't think they're all that cunning. >>Betsy HP: >That's part of why I enjoy the books. Nothing automatically predisposes someone to be good or evil.< >>Alla: >And about that I am not so sure. I think character disposition plays a very big part in 'potterverse", but for the better explanation of that I really need Nora. :-)< Betsy Hp: I think we're talking at cross purposes again . I mean that someone can come from a bigoted and blood obsessed family and find himself best friends with a werewolf. Or someone can come from a relatively warm and loving home and find themselves turning on their family in an attempt to get ahead in their government job. (Though honestly, I still hope Percy's a spy and it was all an act.) Or someone could come from a home heavily concerned with law and order and decide to join a group dedicated to chaos. Or someone could come from a home of hateful muggles and find himself fighting to keep muggles safe. I'm just saying that JKR has not drawn obvious and predictable paths to good or evil. No matter their background, upbringing, family views, or even school days mishaps, each character finds their own way and makes their own decision. It's why I find the books so fascinating. Betsy Hp From marilynpeake at cs.com Sat Jun 25 05:51:55 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:51:55 -0000 Subject: bickering between Ron and Hermione In-Reply-To: <7f.60ca9aea.2fedc8c0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131397 After I first noticed the bickering between Hermione and Ron in The Prisoner of Azkaban, I realized that this is very typical of teenagers. In addition to emotions running high, that's often a stage in life when children become idealistic about important world matters and begin working toward their future. When it became apparent exactly how heavy a course load Hermione had taken on in The Prisoner of Azkaban, her frayed nerves and short temper made a great deal of sense to me. Best Wishes, Marilyn ~~ Drink deeply by land or sea. Earth comes only once.~~ >From THE FISHERMAN'S SON Trilogy http://www.marilynpeake.com http://www.thefishermansson.com http://www.thecityofthegoldensun.com --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, BrwNeil at a... wrote: > >> The size of the subject depends on its importance to the individual. Hermione considers house elves as enslaved, Ron comments that his mother would like to have one for doing the ironing. Such differing opinions on slavery were one of the reasons for the US civil war. This is one subject that either Ron or Hermione will need to make a full turn around on if they are to ever be a couple. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jun 25 06:46:17 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:46:17 -0000 Subject: Prophecies always come true. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131398 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bbkkyy55" wrote: Bonnie: > I think we were discussing this a while back. Didn't someone mention > Macbeth. I like the theory that prophecies always do come true, but > that they are generally misunderstood. As has been mentioned, they > are worded so vaguely. We don't even know if we've heard the whole > version yet. Except for Trelawney's predictions that Harry would > die, some of her "insights' actually do come true in a way. For > example, when she sees the Grim in POA. Maybe it wasn't the Grim at > all, it was Sirius and she misinterpreted it. > > When we hear a Prophecy we immediately put our own interpretation on > it, when in reality it may be about something else entirely that we > would never have guessed. > > For example, "neither can live while the other survives". Does that > mean in a literal "live or die" sense, or is it in a "live life to > its fullest" sense. I bet we will be surprised. IMO Harry should do > what he feels is right and disregard the prophecy. In the long run > that may fulfill it more than we could guess. Geoff: I raised the question of prophecy parallels with Macbeth. If you want to refer to them again, the message numbers were 128332 and 129132. From zanelupin at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 08:10:11 2005 From: zanelupin at gmail.com (KathyK) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:10:11 -0000 Subject: Petunia a witch? In-Reply-To: <20050624205305.34934.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131399 Hi everyone! Wow, Brianna, you've pulled me from lurkdom! It's been a while and I'm all sorts of rusty. You've all been warned. :-) Also apologies to Brianna as I've rearranged her post a *tiny* bit. Brianna: > I am not sure what to make of JKR's statement about > Petunia, but I've always wondered about her kitchen. > It's sparkling clean. I've thought about it being > unnaturally clean, and wondered if magic was > involved. But this portrait of Petunia could simply be > a joke on the bored and meaningless life of a suburban > housewife. KathyK: Petunia, Petunia...one of my very favourite characters. What's her deal? Is she our latent witch, destined to surprise her family at the critical moment, revealing at last, perhaps even to her own astonishment, that she is not so different from her dearly departed sister? She, too, can perform a bit of magic if need be? If she is to play this role, I cannot imagine that her magical ability is something she is aware of, using it to keep her muggle kitchen so spectacularly clean. To what purpose? To me, she clearly hates her sister and her magical abilities, whatever the reason--and there are several options to choose from--so I find it difficult to see a logical explanation that she's been doing magic to keep her home the spotless, gleaming wonder that it is. Nor do I think the sort of accidental magic Harry sometimes demonstrates is to blame for the cleanliness of the Dursley home. I could easily be mistaken given my poor recollection of canon at the moment, but the wandless magic was something wizards rarely display unless under some sort of stress. Housecleaning may cause *me* an inordinate amount of anxiety, but I have a sneaking suspicion for Petunia, in her well kept suburban home, it is a rather normal activity and not cause for much worry and distress. Unless, of course, she's so worried about making sure her home is the most orderly in the neighborhood, she's been for years inadvertantly using magic in keeping up her home. :-P Brianna: > I wonder if this character is going to have to pick up a wand to > defend her family, and be capable of some real magic. KathyK: I have to say, Petunia being the one to use magic later in life, is one of the few things that would disappoint me in the next two books. It wouldn't be a surprise, given JKR has essentially removed Dudley from the running with her "What you see is what you get." comment at the Edinburgh Book Festival (15 August 2004). Not to mention her cryptic answer to whether or not Petunia is a squib. She gave her muggle status, but she had to throw in that "but" afterward, didn't she?* Who is left, if we remove Petunia from the running? Arabella Figg and Filch? They're squibs, and Mrs. Figg has already played her part in surprising us with her Squibness. As far as Filch goes...it wouldn't be interesting at all. And Vernon sure ain't gonna be it. Petunia is the most interesting and logical candidate. She's got a witchy sister and nephew. There's more to her than we already know. While I think Petunia's story is more than interesting without adding in her doing magic to the mix, it seems to me she's set to play this part in the series, during some emotionally charged and life-threatening moment, of course. Brianna: > And, does she know any of Lily's old friends? KathyK: Possibly. I'd say it's likely, in fact. And if you want to take our dear Petunia at face value in OOP, Ch 2 *and* assume "that awful boy" she mentioned was James, then I'd say yes. KathyK, who has managed to keep herself distracted from the wait for HBP by loathing her job, seeing Star Wars, Spamalot, and watching four seasons of Alias in the past month...but has now run out of diversions *Link to Edinburgh Chat Transcript: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2004/0804-ebf.htm From maliksthong at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 11:40:43 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:40:43 -0000 Subject: Who do people think HBP Is?/ Hagrid a Halfling. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131400 > > > Geoff: > I just got the following information from Wikkipedia (via Google): > > "Originally, 'Halflin' was an old Scottish word, pre-dating The > Hobbit and Dungeons & Dragons. It meant an awkward rustic teenager, > who is neither man nor boy, and so half of both. Another word for > halflin is hobbledehoy. > > Some fantasy stories use halfling to describe a person born of a > human parent and a parent of another race, often a human female and > an elf. Terry Brooks describes characters such as Shea Ohmsford from > his Shannara series as a halfling of elf-human parentage." > > Note that the meaning which you use is a modern post-Tolkien > invention. > > So you could place Hagrid in that context but in the original Scots > meaning or Tolkien''s for that matter, I think he would not fit the > definition. However, its not worth fighting over. > :-) LOL! Who was fighting? I was just thinking it was not a matter of blood purity but of purity of race, which she seems to touch on often as well, so in my opinion it's probably not Hagrid that's the HBP due to that, he'd be defined by his species. Thanks for telling me that, it's interesting to see from where variations of words originate. I took it for granted that it was something more modern. Chys From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat Jun 25 14:16:14 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:16:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's parents - was it in the stars? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jotwo2003" wrote: Snape believes in enforcing rules and is the head of > Slytherin House, associated with ambition. These traits are typical > for Capricorn, which is Snape's sign. Gerry For Snape it is even better. If you read old-fashioned astrology books, they also give a description of the appearance that belongs to the zodiac sign. For carpicorn this is dark, wiry, dark eyes, even the sallow skin if I'm right. I always wondered if JKR also used that information in picturing Snape. I remember the capricorn because I'm a capricorn myself. I would have loved to have black hair, but unfortunately I'm a blond. Gerry From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Sat Jun 25 10:23:35 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Fitzov de Sullens) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:23:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question: Contest In-Reply-To: <20050625101629.34438.qmail@web86701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050625102335.88010.qmail@web86706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131402 I hope I'm not too late to enter, having been locked off my e-mail for the last 6 weeks!!! 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Sirius 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was previously in love with Remus Lupin, but married James, sparking a period of intense misery and introspection on the part of Lupin who eventually forgave James. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Viktor Krum 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? There won't be one in Book 6, but Sirius will become Minister for Magic in Book 7. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A cauldren 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All of them apart from DADA. See prediction 5 below Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Sirius Black will be revealed to be very much alive. His 'death' was deliberate and carefully planned in order to enable him to learn the secret of Voldemort's own resurrection and so enable Harry to conquer Voldemort in Book 7. Only Lupin knew of Sirius' plan which was concocted during the months of 'inaction' at Grimmauld Place. Harry and the mirror will both be instrumental in bringing Sirius back from beyond the veil. 2. Sirius will bring news and/or assistance from Harry's parents and from other dead Order of the Phoenix members behind the veil. 3. The 'Half-Blood Prince' refers to a person half living-half dead, or who has been resurrected from the dead, or who has been resurrected using a half-blood's blood (Harry's). The HBP is therefore Sirius. 4. Neville will have been traumatised by having heard the prophesy and believing that it may have referred to him. This will lead him to do something very stupid toward the end of Book 6 (such as taking on VM himself). 5. Harry will fail DADA following Umbridge's intervention in his practical exam. "As Harry exited the exam he noticed a strange smile playing on Umbridge's lips". Possibly Umbridge placed the examiner under the Imperious curse. As a result, Harry is unable to take advanced DADA and rethinks his career as an Auror, choosing to become and Unspeakable instead. Harry continues to give practical lessons in DADA however, and becomes a firm friend of the new DADA teacher Viktor Krum. Comments? Suggestions? Love the idea of a quiz. May the most fantastic predictions win! Fitzov [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 14:35:51 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 07:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The good Slytherin - Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050625143552.75571.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131403 -- Steve wrote: > Slytherin probably are selfish and ambitious, which is exactly how > they got into that House. The probably do lean toward believing > that there is something to being a pureblood. But there are all > kinds of people who elevate themselves for a variety of harmless > reason. Some > people in the USA take great status in saying there ancestors came > over on the Mayflower. Personally, I just discovered that a > relative on my father's side of the family signed the Declaration > of Independance. > > ....Being able to take pride in being Pureblood isn't really any > different that taking pride in being among > the aristocracy. Yes... yes.. I know everyone equates it with > racism, and for Draco that is true, but for other Slytherins, > rather than being a psychotic obssession, it may simply be a point > of pride. Steve has an excellent point and it speaks to something that's been bothering me for a while, which is that I think a lot of posters are assuming that the extreme form of pureblood worship that the DE's espouse is quite common throughout the WW and is held in check only by the dedicated efforts of Gryffindors, young and old. I think we have to take the middle ground - the grey area, if you will - and realize that you can be a total snob about your wizard heritage and yet not be a wanna-be mass-murderer or muggle-hunter. Sirius - who has no reason to put his parents' beliefs in a good light - says that his parents were all in favour of Voldemort until they realized what he was really after. It strikes me that this is one of the reasons the WW was so slow to react against the DE's during the first war: they were literally something the WW had never encountered before, the embodiment of blood-pride descending to the level of atrocity and killing. However Voldemort was selling membership cards, it likely wasn't an up front appeal to come join the muggle extermination league. With Barty Crouch Jr. he seems to have stressed the similiarity in their backgrounds as unappreciated by stupid fathers and holding out the opportunity to be revenged on those fathers in the worst possible way. Harry and company hasn't confronted this grey area yet and in Harry's case he probably doesn't know it even exists. He's still in good guy/bad guy mode. (This is another reason, IMO, why Sirius was not a good mentor for Harry; Sirius had way too much emotional baggage concerning his family to give Harry clear and objective guidance about seeing the big picture of wizard society.) Magda ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 15:25:54 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:25:54 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin - Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: <20050625143552.75571.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131404 Magda: > I think we have to take the middle ground - the grey area, if you > will - and realize that you can be a total snob about your wizard > heritage and yet not be a wanna-be mass-murderer or muggle-hunter. > Sirius - who has no reason to put his parents' beliefs in a good > light - says that his parents were all in favour of Voldemort until > they realized what he was really after. > > Harry and company hasn't confronted this grey area yet and in Harry's > case he probably doesn't know it even exists. He's still in good > guy/bad guy mode. (This is another reason, IMO, why Sirius was not a > good mentor for Harry; Sirius had way too much emotional baggage > concerning his family to give Harry clear and objective guidance > about seeing the big picture of wizard society.) Alla: Unsurprisingly, I disagree. I don't think that the ideology area is meand to be even a little bit grey, but pretty much black and white. First question - where exactly do you drew that line where "grey" stops being "grey" and becomes "black"? Say person is being proud of his /her "pureblood" heritage. So far so good, but if such person at the same time thinks that "muggleborns" are not as good as this person is, I doubt that JKT supports this , even if this person does not want to go on a muggleborn killing expedition. Moreover, I think that it is very telling that on her website JKR compares calling people "half-bloods" etc with what natzi did to jews. I may be very wrong, but to me it is quite clear where she stands on "purebloodism', even if it did not grow in certain families to the level of being Voldemort's supporters. I don't think that JKR treats Black family even remotely sympathetically, even though they did not think that Voldemort was right. And I think the fact that Sirius left his family, makes him in fact a very good mentor for Harry, since it would show him where "blood pride" can lead you, if you don't leave it behind. Just my opinion, Alla. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 25 15:32:33 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:32:33 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > But, just as various members of the other three houses have been > varied in their reactions to Harry and his fight with Voldemort > (Smith vs. Macmillan, Cho vs. Luna, Seamus vs. Neville) I'm sure > there will be varied reactions within Slytherin house as well. Some > may welcome the chance to come on board, some may sneer at Harry a > bit, some may decide to join Voldemort. But what I'm hoping for is > that not every new recruit for Voldemort is a Slytherin. > What then do you make of the fact that not a single Slytherin joined Dumbledore's Army? In fact, no Slytherin even bothered to attend the informational meeting at the Hogs Head. Now, perhaps, they were implicitly invited to "not" join up by the Gryffindors - and perhaps Harry is held in such universal dislike by the Slytherins that they chose not to ally themselves with him. And that begs the question, why?, if the Slytherins are supposed to be as "nuanced" as you claim. After all, Hufflepuff has valid reasons to object to accepting Harry in a leadership role (his upstaging of Cedric, and his involvement in Cedric's death), but they waive their objections in light of their belief that Voldemort has returned. I think it safe to assume that of the four dorms, Slytherin is the one most closely connected with Voldemort and the DEs - so perhaps they've heard not only the same rumors that the rest of Hogwarts has heard about Voldemort's return, but may have been privy to some inside information that the rest of the school has not heard - nothing conclusive perhaps, but things like info on the whereabouts of the Azkaban escapees, etc. And there's no Slytherin student sufficiently alarmed by any of this to step forward in opposition to it? > However, I do take issue with the idea that no Slytherin could *ever* > be sweetly good. (Actually, there's something a bit Slytherin in Mary > Poppins herself, wouldn't you say? ) I agree: and here's some evidence: http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/lestrange.htm#AvadaKedavra - CMC From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 16:34:52 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050625163453.5694.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131406 --- Caius Marcius wrote: > What then do you make of the fact that not a single Slytherin > joined Dumbledore's Army? In fact, no Slytherin even bothered to > attend the informational meeting at the Hogs Head. Well, it suggests to me that Slytherins aren't joiners by nature, and especially not joiners of organizations set up by Gryffindors. Slyths keep themselves to themselves, and keep their cards very close to their vests. Another reason why blabber-mouth Draco is probably not the standard most Slyths would prefer their House to be measured against. I don't think you can assume complicity with evil just because the Slyths didn't come to the DA info session. Most of the students there came because of a personal connection with someone Harry knows: Luna because she has a crush on Ron, Cho because she sort of thinks she has one on Harry, Marrietta because Cho probably pleaded with her to come, and the Hufflepuffs because they want to hear the low-down on what really happened to their House star Cedric. Magda ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 16:35:06 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:35:06 -0000 Subject: Petunia a witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131407 I have been thinking about Petunia too. She could be a witch who chose to live as a Muggle, as I have suggested before. She could be a latent witch, but I am not so sure about that. Maybe the only suprise is going to be that she has been intouch with DD all of this time behind Vernon's back. She is a Muggle who knows that the WW exist and maybe knows some of the people there, but does not associate with them. Except there is that Owl the same color as the Longbottom's owl. There are other little indications that she has gotten more than one letter from DD. I think that JKR has hinted that herself. Clearly Petunia knows that magic exist, and so does Vernon. They want nothing to do with it, probably because they have seen the danger in it. I think the *secret* is that Petunia, fully Muggle, is going to let out that she has in fact been in contact with DD more often than Vernon knows. In addition, she could under stress to save her family come up with enough magic to do the *trick*. If this happens it will be to show us that to some extent the power of magic is in us all. And finally, maybe she is going to just going to bake Harry a birthday cake... about time. Tonks_op From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 16:44:41 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The good Slytherin - Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050625164441.10670.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131408 > Alla: > > Unsurprisingly, I disagree. I don't think that the ideology area > is meand to be even a little bit grey, but pretty much black and > white. > First question - where exactly do you drew that line where "grey" > stops being "grey" and becomes "black"? Alla disagrees; stop the presses. The line is drawn where thought becomes action. Hate is not illegal (although I would argue that we have no proof that Slyths in general hate halfbloods and muggles, you're just assuming they do). > Say person is being proud of his /her "pureblood" heritage. So far > so good, but if such person at the same time thinks > that "muggleborns" are not as good as this person is, I doubt that > JKT supports this , even if this person does not want to go on a > muggleborn killing expedition. Being a jerk is not a crime. Again, we have no proof that Slyths in general think this way, although we can probably assume a House-pride and a my-family-goes-back-to-the-Saxon-invasion-of-Britain consciousness. > Moreover, I think that it is very telling that on her website JKR > compares calling people "half-bloods" etc with what natzi did to > jews. I don't think that's the exact quote. > I may be very wrong, but to me it is quite clear where she stands > on "purebloodism', even if it did not grow in certain families to > the level of being Voldemort's supporters. Snobbery is never a virtue, although it's by no means the worst of vices and it's not a crime. > I don't think that JKR treats Black family even remotely > sympathetically, even though they did not think that Voldemort was > right. And who said she did? She treats them as foolish people who were trapped in their own fantasy and allowed it to destroy their family. > And I think the fact that Sirius left his family, makes him in > fact > a very good mentor for Harry, since it would show him where "blood > pride" can lead you, if you don't leave it behind. You think he left it behind? Not at all; Sirius rejected their beliefs but he had a great deal of Black I-can-do-what-I-want attitude which led to his most egregious mistakes. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 17:18:14 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:18:14 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin - Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131410 > Magda: > > The line is drawn where thought becomes action. Hate is not illegal > (although I would argue that we have no proof that Slyths in general > hate halfbloods and muggles, you're just assuming they do). > Alla: I am assuming based on Slytherins I met in the books so far. > Alla earlier: > > > Moreover, I think that it is very telling that on her website > JKR > > > compares calling people "half-bloods" etc with what natzi did to > > > jews. > > Magda: > > I don't think that's the exact quote. Alla: That was not a quote at all, that was paraphrasing. Here is the exact quote. "Why are some people in the wizarding world (e.g., Harry) called 'half-blood' even though both their parents were magical? The expressions 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' have been coined by people to whom these distinctions matter, and express their originators' prejudices. As far as somebody like Lucius Malfoy is concerned, for instance, a Muggle-born is as 'bad' as a Muggle. Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of his mother's grandparents. If you think this is far-fetched, look at some of the real charts the Nazis used to show what constituted 'Aryan' or 'Jewish' blood. I saw one in the Holocaust Museum in Washington when I had already devised the 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' definitions, and was chilled to see that the Nazis used precisely the same warped logic as the Death Eaters. A single Jewish grandparent 'polluted' the blood, according to their propaganda." > Magda : > > You think he left it behind? Not at all; Sirius rejected their > > beliefs but he had a great deal of Black I-can-do-what-I-want > > attitude which led to his most egregious mistakes. Alla: I would like to see more proof on Sirius being proud of being a Black, if you don't mind. We have a proof that he was not proud of his family ( namely him leaving his family behind and never looking back). I don't see any proof to the contrary. Just wanted to add that it also very telling to me that the most sympathetically portrayed "pureblood" family in the books so far ( IMO anyway) is the one whom wisarding society calls "bloodtraitors". JMO, Alla. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 25 18:48:48 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:48:48 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin - Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131411 > Alla: > > I am assuming based on Slytherins I met in the books so far. > Pippin: ::blinks:: Are you saying Jo could write, "All Slytherins are bad because they're prejudiced" without any sense of irony? I don't _think_ so. Anyway, modern thinking on prejudice is that we're all prejudiced ...it's part of the way our minds work. We're all descended from people who didn't wait to find out if this particular tiger was hungry. All we can do is become aware that we're prejudiced, and then decide, if we have time, whether acting on prejudice is justified by the circumstances. After all, it's still not a good idea to wait to see if the tiger is hungry. While it seems that Salazar chose people for his house who shared his particular prejudice, in doing so he would not necessarily be choosing people who were more likely to think or act uncritically. That would not be consistent with having a disregard for rules or being cunning. But wizards of whatever house are taught that their instincts are noble because they're wizards, (that's the lie of the fountain) and Gryffindors believe their instincts are noble because they're Gryffindors. Since none of them evaluate their decisions for prejudice, (since they think they're too noble to have any) they're likely to act on their prejudices without even thinking about it, for example, by not inviting any Slytherins to join the DA. That's something I see in Sirius also , very much so. As Jo says, he spouts that the world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters, but he never acts as though there might be any latent good qualities in Snape. Pippin From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 18:51:06 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:51:06 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin - More Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" > wrote: > > > > But, just as various members of the other three houses have been > > varied in their reactions to Harry and his fight with Voldemort > > ... I'm sure there will be varied reactions within Slytherin ... > > > CMC: > > What then do you make of the fact that not a single Slytherin joined > Dumbledore's Army? In fact, no Slytherin even bothered to attend the > informational meeting at the Hogs Head. ...edited... > bboyminn: Well, you pretty much answered this yourself, although I snipped it from your post. Slytherin weren't there because they weren't asked. As the discussion between Alla and Betsy clearly establish, Harry and friends have a very strong dislike of Slytherin, which in a very childish boarding school way, might even be justified. So, I can't imagine that any Slytherins were ever approached and asked to join the DA Club. Especially, when the Slytherins gave the appearance of supporting Umbridge. However, my speculation relating the new DA Club with the Good Slytherins assumes that it will be an officially sanctioned open club; that is, school approved and open to all houses. Slytherins will join then misbehave as they always do. At this time Draco and his supporters will leave the club, but other non-Draco non-Voldemort Slytherins will stay in the club. It will be these Slytherins that show us that the Draco model, and Harry's preconceived notion of Slytherin indeed do not define ALL Slytherins. > > Betsy HP: > > > > However, I do take issue with the idea that no Slytherin could > > *ever* be sweetly good. (Actually, there's something a bit > > Slytherin in Mary Poppins herself, wouldn't you say? ) > CMC: > > I agree: and here's some evidence: > > - CMC bboyminn: Notice, I didn't actually say that no Slytherin could every be truly nice or sweetly good. I was making a point within a certain context, and to do so, admittedly, I overstated that point to make it clear. I was attempting to counter the apparent assumption by many people that a 'bad' Slytherin is uniformly and completely bad, and that therefore any 'good' Slytherin would instantly be all butterflies and rainbows. My appeal was to try and get people to view Slytherins, good and bad, as a spectum that is more a model of real life, in which even the best of us still has his shades of grey. So, there certainly is room in my spectrum for a 'butterflies and rainbows' Slytherin, just as there is room for a good but definitely not nice Slytherin student. But more than likely, the Good Slytherins are just going to be normal kids with the same virtues as well as frailties and faults as any other kid. Further, I think that last concept more accurately reflects Slytherin House, and reflects in far more accurately than Draco's version of Slytherin, or Harry's highly prejudice version of Slytherin House. The conflicts between house can easily be understood in the childish confines of the schoolyard. Houses are rivals, Slytherins are arrogant, the other House take a certain joy in knocking Slytherin off their high horse. But these are petty House Cup/Quidditch Cup rivalries that make great sense and instill great passion in schoolboys. But later on in life, in order for society to function, the pettyness of the rivalries has to be dropped. I'm reminded of the on-going/always was/never ending rivalry be between Harvard and Yale Universities. Each thoroughly convinced that /their/ university is the best, and that the other is nothing but a bunch of ego-inflated over-rated hacks. And that's fine for schoolboys, but once you are out in the business world, these things can't be allowed. True the jibs, glib cutting remarks, and teasing still continue, but when a Harvard man needs a new employee, and a Yale man is obviously the best man for the job, he doesn't quibble over schoolboy taunts, he takes a much more practical approach. So my Harvard/Yale point is that these schoolboy preception seem likely to fade in the years after Hogwarts. In post-Hogwarts years kids are just kids, and men are just men, and House allegiance carries very little weight beyond the gates of Hogwarts. Which again re-enforces the postion that Slytherins are just kids going to school, perhaps more ambitious, perhaps more eager for suscess, perhaps more cunning, but in the end, they are just people, a complex grey spectrum of people like any other. Though without a doubt, some of them are obssessed with their own unique petty priorites, as are Hufflepuffs, Ravenclaws, and Gryffindors. So, in my eyes, I see that JKR is clearly setting up a sorting out of Slytherins. She is setting the scene for the uniting of Hogwarts House against a common enemy. When that time comes, we will see the appearance of ambitious cunning Slytherins who think Draco is an obnoxious prat, and Voldemort is the worst thing that could possibly happen to their personal plans for success. They will run the range of good, to so-so, and to not nice, but by the same token, not evil. Again, find the answers in the shades of grey. Steve/bboyminn From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 25 19:10:54 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050625191054.42568.qmail@web80101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131413 potioncat wrote: >>snip<< Snape appeared to be taking thoughts out to keep them from Potter. In each case, Snape waits till the last minute to remove them, then replaces them as soon as possible. Many readers seem to think it was his way of taunting Potter, but I think it was standard procedure. Chris: I am listening again to OOtP. At the beginning of the first Occulmency lesson Snape removed three strands from his head and placed them in the pensieve. Do we know if each strand is an individual memory? Or is it three pieces of the same memory? I suspect the reason he removed the thoughts wasn't just to keep them from Harry, but to prevent VM inside Harry, from seeing them and maybe being able to use the memories against him. Chris (flowerchild4) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 19:14:30 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The good Slytherin - More Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050625191430.42827.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131414 First, why can there only be ONE good Slytherin? There must be more than one student currently at Hogwarts who's a good Slytherin... We don't really know a lot of Slytherins from the past (other than the DEs), but two of my favorite characters are Slytherins and I consider them good: Phineas Nigellus and Severus Snape. The only Slytherins mentioned in the books are Draco's friends and the quidditch team, there a many more unknown Slytherins, who at least a couple are nice. Why didn't any Slytherin join the DA? 1) They weren't invited, 2) They are *supposed* to support Umbridge, 3) They don't even know it exists. I bet that now that DD is back, and everyone truly knows LV is back, the DA will become an official club (as explained by other posters), and any Hogwarts student will be able to join, including Slytherins. Hagris's statement that "all evil wizards were in Slytherin" isn't true, one of the most evil characters is a Gryffindor (Wormtail), Umbridge (I'm not sure if she is evil or just a b*tch) doesn't seem like a Slytherin, I would guess she was a Ravenclaw, Marietta Edgcome, though not evil, is a Ravenclaw... I'm sure the list doesn't end here, but that's as far as my memory goes. Anyway, I *know* we'll see a good Slytherin, and as I said in a previous message, maybe this new Slytherin will be Harry's new girlfriend. (BTW can you imagine Ron's face?) Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jun 25 19:22:22 2005 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 19:22:22 -0000 Subject: On the subject of Slytherins - Daphne Greengrass Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131415 Miss Greengrass, pure-blood Slytherin student in Harry's year has existed for JKR for a long time. She's on the master list of students glimpsed in the BBC documentary Harry and me. However, the ordinary reader as opposed to the obsessive fan will have only noticed her once, in OOP, when she was taking a practical exam at the same time as Hermione. This was her first appearance in canon, but it may not be her last. Here are my speculations about her. Green is obviously the colour of Slytherin. However green also has associations of respect for nature. Grass, of course, is a plant. Daphne is a name for the laurel or bay tree. The subject connected with plants and the environment is Herbology. As NEWTs are elective classes, maybe it will no longer be just Hufflepuffs and Gryffindors studying together. Perhaps Harry and the reader will become more familiar with Daphne Greengrass in this way. This character's first name is interesting. She was originally called Queenie in JKR's list of students. Queenie has overtones of royalty, and a belief that some people are better than others because of their birth and lineage. This would fit a Slytherin pure-blood. Now that JKR has changed her name to Daphne, I wonder if there are different implications for this character. Daphne features in Greek mythology. She was a beautiful nymph, the daughter of Peneus, a river god. She was a hunter who dedicated herself to Artemis, goddess of the hunt, and like the goddess, refused to marry. Apollo, a sun god, fell in love with Daphne, but she spurned his advances. She fled and he pursued her through the woods. She prayed to her father for deliverance, and as Apollo approached she was changed into the laurel tree. Apollo was grief- stricken and made the laurel his sacred tree. The laurel or bay tree is said to be so holy that it protects all beneath its shade from lightening. It belongs to the family Thymelaeceae, in the order Myrtales. I'm trying to work out what relevance this legend could have to the plot or to Daphne's characterisation. Could it be a hint that Voldemort will try to recruit Daphne Greengrass but that she will reject joining the side of evil? Although JKR has a vast knowledge of names and plants, does she realise that the laurel has connections with the myrtle? (Myrtles belong to a different family, the Myrtaceae, but the same order.) Daphne's a pure-blood and Moaning Myrtle was a Muggle-born, so they can't be genetically related. Could there be a link with someone in Myrtle's time? We know Olive Hornby's brother got married. Did Olive herself marry and thus change her surname? Or did the she or her brother have children that married into the Greengrass family? Even if there is no direct connection, JKR has told us that we will see Moaning Myrtle again (World Book Day chat 4th March 2004). Myrtle was a victim of Voldemort. Does the plant name link mean Daphne will meet the same fate? The only other theory I can think up for JKR naming this character after a tree is very far out. Hannah Abbott believed in POA that Sirius Black got into the castle by turning himself into a bush. She was totally wrong about Sirius, but if there are animagi, could there possibly be wizards and witches who can turn themselves into plants? In JKR's world, anything is possible. To conclude, as fans are often speculating about whether there will be any good Slytherins, I think Daphne Greengrass could be a candidate. JoTwo From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 19:23:57 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 19:23:57 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin - Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131416 > > Alla: > > > > I am assuming based on Slytherins I met in the books so far. > > > > Pippin: > ::blinks:: Are you saying Jo could write, "All Slytherins are bad > because they're prejudiced" without any sense of irony? > I don't _think_ so. Alla: I think she can go either way, Pippin. I think she can easily get away with doing exactly that. Only I would form it not "All Slytherins are bad because they are prejudiced", but because they share this particular form of prejudice. Would I personally be happy with such direction? Not really, BUT that is only when I look at the story from outside and would ask myself again " could it be that so many kids in WW are predestined to be bad?" When I look at the story from within, I don't really care if all Slytherins would end up being bad. Why? Because so far ( thanks to JKR :-)) I had been led to dislike all Slytherins I saw in the books or at most love/hate them at the same time ( Snape). Now, she can of course go into other direction, but again she had no problem stating that Gryffindor is her favorite house and she values courage beyond anything in the world ( paraphrase). I don't see why it would be problematic for her to portray House which seems to be the opposite of Gryffindor as villains. ( again, not very realistic to me, but JKR can do whatever she wants, no?) Pippin: > That's something I see in Sirius also , very much so. As Jo says, > he spouts that the world isn't divided into good people and > Death Eaters, but he never acts as though there might be > any latent good qualities in Snape. Alla: Well, the word "latent" tells me that you have to look hard to find those qualities. I am not really surprised that Sirius was not willing to look very hard in Snape's soul to find them. :-), giving their history. JMO, Alla. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 20:20:06 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:20:06 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin - More Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131417 >>bboyminn: >The conflicts between house can easily be understood in the childish confines of the schoolyard. Houses are rivals, Slytherins are arrogant, the other House take a certain joy in knocking Slytherin off their high horse. But these are petty House Cup/Quidditch Cup rivalries that make great sense and instill great passion in schoolboys. But later on in life, in order for society to function, the pettyness of the rivalries has to be dropped.< Betsy Hp: I think it's telling that we rarely get told what house adults in the WW belonged to. We're left to guessing based on behavior, but we never really know for sure. I think it shows that after graduating most wizards and witches *do* move on. I think it's also interesting that the rivalry that does exist at Hogwarts seems so Gryffindor vs. Slytherin oriented. Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff seem willing to swing their allegience either way. Has Slytherin been winning far too often? Then we'll cheer for Gryffindor. Does Gryffindor Harry seem to be unfairly stealing the spotlight from a fellow Hogwarts student? Then we'll wear pins designed by a Slytherin. But they also don't seem to have any underlying dislike for each other. We don't see Hufflepuffs hissing at newly sorted Ravenclaws, for example. It's part of the reason I think there *must* be some sort of change in the Gryffindor/Slytherin relationship before the series is over. I don't think it'll be a *huge* part of the last two books. But I do think it'll be an important aspect, like the DA club was in OotP. >>bboyminn: >So, in my eyes, I see that JKR is clearly setting up a sorting out of Slytherins. She is setting the scene for the uniting of Hogwarts House against a common enemy. When that time comes, we will see the appearance of ambitious cunning Slytherins who think Draco is an obnoxious prat, and Voldemort is the worst thing that could possibly happen to their personal plans for success. They will run the range of good, to so-so, and to not nice, but by the same token, not evil.< Betsy Hp: I agree. Except, of course, I'm crossing my fingers that *Draco* will be the one to lead the Slytherins to Harry's side. (Seems to fit the classic school days story line, doesn't it? Doesn't it? Am I crazy here?) I don't think Draco will suddenly cease to be obnoxious, but I'm hoping he'll step out of his father's shadow and be a little less toxic. Betsy Hp From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 25 20:50:24 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who do people think HBP Is? In-Reply-To: <051e01c5776f$af52c6c0$14a223cf@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: <20050625205025.26447.qmail@web80104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131418 Mich Verrier wrote: Hi All. I am wondering who people think HBP Is? JKR has already said that it is not Harry or LV so those 2 are out. I personally think it is Neville. Also do you think that Harry is going to tell Ron and Hermione about the prophecy and that he has to either kill LV or be killed himself? Just some thoughts and I look forward to other people's responses. >From Mich Verrier. Chris: As others have pointed out it is unlikely to be any of the purebloods, unless we find out that the parentage is not as sure as we have been led to believe. However, I don't think that this is likely either, because this is a children's book and while I am sure kids these days can deal with just about anything thrown their way, I for one don't see JKR putting it in her HP books. I think the HBP is most likely to be a historical figure. I like the idea of Godric Gryffindor. This would give some symmetry to the COS storyline about Salazar Slytherin. I also think it may be a title that refers to GG's caring of all magic children and not just the purebloods that SS was so adamant about, rather than an actual regal title. I do think Harry will tell Ron and Hermione. IIRC, JKR said something to the effect that he will tell them once he comes to terms with his emotions. Chris (flowerchild4) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 21:07:27 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:07:27 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (mild TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131419 To: Betsy Horridporrid It was brought to our attention that some of the things you have written in this forum might imply that there is no proof that the House of Slytherin is Evil. Enclosed please find the canon-proven list of our members with their grades in our official S.N.A.K.E. (Seriously Nasty, Amazingly Kewl Evil) test: Tom Riddle (murderer at 16, currently an evil overlord): O Salazar Slytherin (invented the pureblood mania, slipped a basilisk into Hogwarts): O Lucius Malfoy (DE, slips deadly diaries to little girls): E Bellatrix Black-Lestrange (DE, professional sadist): E Rudolphus Lestrange (DE): E Evan Rosier (DE, deceased): E Wilkes (DE, deceased): E Avery (DE and sycophant): E Narcissa Black-Malfoy (DE's wife, took part in the Kreacher plot): A Draco Malfoy (DE's son and proud of it, member of Umbridge's IS): A Vincent Crabbe (DE's son, member of Umbridge's IS): A Gregory Goyle (DE's son, member of Umbridge's IS): A Pansy Parkinson (member of Umbridge's IS): P Bulstrode Millicent (member of Umbridge's IS): P Montague (member of Umbridge's IS): P Theodore Nott (DE's son, loyalty unknown): P Marcus Flint (Quidditch Captain, never heard about fair play): D Severus Snape (ex-DE, currently an Order member, not-nice): D The Bloody Baron (scary ghost, covered in blood, loyalty unknown): D Phineas Nigellus (not-very-nice but on Dumbledore's side): T Notes: Severus Snape's appeal to raise his grade from T to D, despite working for Dumbledore, was granted due to his past record as a DE and his excellent current efforts in terrorizing school children with tragic past. Theodore Nott's grade was demoted from A to P despite being a DE's son, due to his failure to supply us with any concrete canon that he's Not A Nice Person. Several excellent baddies (Rabastan Lestrange, Nott Sr., Crabbe Sr., Goyle Sr.), who could have raised the house statistics (see below) even further, unfortunately had to be rejected since they could not provide definite canon that they were in Slytherin House. House Statistics: 10% Outstanding (evil overlords or their worthy ancestors thereof). 30% Exceed Expectations (unrepented DEs). 20% Acceptable (have close connections with DEs and behave accordingly). 20% Poor (merely serving in the Inquisitorial Squad). 15% Dreadful (merely playing unfair is not enough in our House). 5% Troll (support Dumbledore). Summary: as you can see, 80% of our canon members had passed the SNAKE test with a grade of P or higher, and 60% with a grade of A or higher. We would also like to draw your attention to the fact that during the period known as the Years of Terror (VW1) the proportion of DEs, out of our all canon-approved Slytherins of the then proper age, was 100% (hundred percents!). We earnestly wish that you would not judge our whole house by the small minority of exceptions which haven't managed to follow our high standards. Even if the legendary being known as "the good Slytherin" will be proved, at some point in the future, to actually exist, we trust that you won't see it as a slur on our house. As a whole, the House of Slytherin is Evil, Evil, Evil. Sincerely, The Slytherin Alumni From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Jun 25 21:41:40 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:41:40 -0000 Subject: New anagram challange (was Calling all detectives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > First I wrote: > > Potioncat: > > Sorry. I must do this, I can't help myself. And I don't know who > > first posted this: > > > > Draco Malfoy = Lord of a YMCA. > > Now I know that in post 95677, a little over a year ago, Ginger wrote: > > I hope we find out that middle name if he intends to be Lord > Something. Otherwise we are left with "LORD OF A YMCA" and I'm not > even sure if the British have those. > Ginger, humming "young man, there's a place you can go..." to herself > > So, I wonder if Ginger ever wroe a filk with that in mind? > > And as it seems we're all going out of our minds waiting for HBP, I > issue a challenge. Come up with a middle name for Draco in order to > make a HP appropriate anagram! > First, I thought I'd point out that Draco Malfoy = "Racy Mad Fool", as well. However, I was bored, so I came with a few middle names, and started anagramming. Keep in mind, though, that it's hard not to make fun of Malfoy when doing anagrams. The first name I tried on for size was "Draco Lucius Malfoy". Ginny ended up with "Molly" as her middle name, so why not have Draco end up with "Lucius"? Well, I suppose "Drooly Facial Mucus" is one reason. I was able to come up with "Lord of Cauci Asylum", but still, not much to this one. "Flay Sam; Crucio Ludo" sounds rather like instructions Voldemort might give, though. Next, since JKR keeps giving out middle names like "John" and "Jane", I thought I'd try "Draco John Malfoy". I ended up with "Lord of Onycha Jam", "Lord Machan of Joy", and "Ah, Lord Fancy Mojo!" for this one. I'll admit to being fond of the latter one. It did occur to be that Narcissa may have named him after her brother, "Draco Regulus Malfoy". The results I got here ended up rather odd... "A Graceful Mousy Lord". Sounds more like Pettigrew, really. "Curse Foul Lord Gamay" & "Lord Amylaceous Frug", also came about with this one. As far as predicting the future, we have: "Marauder Cogs Foully", "Amorally Scour Fudge", "Fudge Clamours! 'Royal'", and the odd "Safeguard Curly Loom". There were a few descriptive ones in there as well. "Afar; Decorously Glum", "Farced Lousy Glamour", and "Dreamful Gay Colours" come to mind. Sounds far more like Fan!Draco, though. I then went with him being named "Draco Phineas Malfoy", again going with naming him after relatives. This gave me "Poncy Mafia Lord Shea". Oh well... Anagrams of this one that struck me as interesting included "Nymphadora Ices Olaf" & "HOI! A Pomfrey Scandal". I also ended up with Draco's "Asocial Hyper-fandom", the "Enchilada Army Spoof", "Manacled Hairy Poofs", & "Horny Academia Flops". No comment on these. Another possibility that came to mind was that Draco may have been named "Draco Salazar Malfoy", after Slytherin. The only anagram I ended up with from that was "Mad Royals Of Alcazar". That is one of the better ones I got, though. Then there is "Draco Ignatius Malfoy". Unlikely, since Percy has the same middle name, and also because of the unfortunate initials. Still, you never know... The only lords, that came up really were the worst of the batch, though. "Lord of a Mystic Iguana", "Gay Mafia Suction Lord", & "A Lord of Antigay Music". I did get the single most likely prediction yet, though: "Origami-fond Casuality". Gave me chills. :( "Unfamiliar Cats; Goody!" & "Laudatory Masonic Fig" came up, as did "Magics Info; Laudatory", & "Magician Fluor's Toady". And I was a bit suprised to see "Anagrams Flout Idiocy" in there... Anyways, that's pretty much what I've come up with. Best of luck to anyone else doing anagrams right now. Oh, and I found to be rather helpful. I usually set it to a max of 2/3 words to make it easier to find good anagrams... --Arcum From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jun 25 22:34:58 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:34:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question: Contest Message-ID: <8d.29c240c5.2fef3612@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131423 In a message dated 6/25/2005 10:30:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kayt.williams at btinternet.com writes: 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? There won't be one in Book 6, but Sirius will become Minister for Magic in Book 7. Interesting - a dead felon as the Minister of Magic? JKR has said that Sirius IS dead. Then again - after Fudge, a dead man might be an improvement. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vloe at dallasnews.com Sat Jun 25 22:36:01 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (firebird) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:36:01 -0000 Subject: The Good Slytherin - Shades of Grey Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131424 To this point, JKR's portrayal of Slytherin House verges on caricature, but in the Potterverse generally, there are many, many shades of grey -- not least in our hero himself. Let's recall Harry's first encounter with the Sorting Hat, and why he was so hard to place: "Plenty of courage, I see ..." (a classic Gryffindor trait) "Not a bad mind either ..." (sounds like Ravenclaw) "There's talent, oh my goodness, yes ..." (probably points to Slytherin, but not definitive) "-- and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting." (ambition = Slytherin). Talent and ambition are not inherently evil traits, although they can certainly be misued in pursuit of evil -- just as courage (think of Bellatrix), loyalty (think of Barty Crouch Jr.) and intelligence (think of LV) can. Would Harry automatically have become evil if he had been in Slytherin? I don't think do. His decision to reject being placed in Slytherin was a momentous one (as DD famously pointed out). But it wasn't the only or the last choice that shaped his character. If that choice had sealed his fate, the books could have ended there. It's also worth noting that Harry's "Slytherin" traits (ambition, pride) are prominent -- if sometimes troublesome -- parts of his character to this day. They are the root of what Hermione calls his "saving people thing." They are fundamental to his survival and among the things that make him so engagingly imperfect. (Maybe Harry is the Bad Gryffindor???!!!) As for the title "Good Slytherin," I'd award it without hesitation to Snape -- much as I sometimes despise him. I can't quite envision Harry becoming reconciled to Draco Malfoy, but I look forward to Harry and Snape reaching a much better understanding. firebird From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 25 22:52:15 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:52:15 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin - Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131425 Pippin: > > ::blinks:: Are you saying Jo could write, "All Slytherins are bad > > because they're prejudiced" without any sense of irony? > > I don't _think_ so. > > > Alla: > > I think she can go either way, Pippin. I think she can easily get > away with doing exactly that. > > Only I would form it not "All Slytherins are bad because they are > prejudiced", but because they share this particular form of > prejudice. > > Would I personally be happy with such direction? Not really, BUT > that is only when I look at the story from outside and would ask > myself again " could it be that so many kids in WW are predestined > to be bad?" > Pippin: Unless you are saying people with pureblood prejudice find it harder to compensate than people with other kinds of prejudice, (and I don't see any justification for that in canon), I cannot see that the type of prejudice makes any difference. Alla: > When I look at the story from within, I don't really care if all > Slytherins would end up being bad. Why? Because so far ( thanks to > JKR :-)) I had been led to dislike all Slytherins I saw in the > books or at most love/hate them at the same time ( Snape). > > > Now, she can of course go into other direction, but again she had no problem stating that Gryffindor is her favorite house and she values courage beyond anything in the world ( paraphrase). > > I don't see why it would be problematic for her to portray House > which seems to be the opposite of Gryffindor as villains. ( again, > not very realistic to me, but JKR can do whatever she wants, no?) Pippin: The fact that you see it as not realistic, ie, against what you have come to expect of JKR's world, indicates to me that it would be problematic. So far Harry hasn't met any Slytherins he likes -- big deal. He doesn't even know the names of most of them. Jo might well think that an education in Gryffindor mores plus innate courage is more likely to yield a wizard of superior virtue, while the combination of a cowardly temperarment and an education in Slytherin mores is more likely to yield a twisted one. But that does not imply that all Slytherins must be twisted,or that a Slytherin who had no objection to pureblood prejudice as an eleven year old might not have a change of heart later. > Pippin: > > That's something I see in Sirius also , very much so. As Jo says, > > he spouts that the world isn't divided into good people and > > Death Eaters, but he never acts as though there might be > > any latent good qualities in Snape. > > > Alla: > > Well, the word "latent" tells me that you have to look hard to find those qualities. I am not really surprised that Sirius was not willing to look very hard in Snape's soul to find them. :-), giving their history. Pippin: Given Snape's history, are you really not surprised that he is not willing to look very hard in Harry's soul to find good qualities in Harry? Pippin From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sat Jun 25 23:18:15 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:18:15 -0000 Subject: Prophecies always come true. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131426 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bbkkyy55" wrote: > I think we were discussing this a while back. Didn't someone mention > Macbeth. I like the theory that prophecies always do come true, but > that they are generally misunderstood. As has been mentioned, they > are worded so vaguely. We don't even know if we've heard the whole > version yet. Except for Trelawney's predictions that Harry would > die, some of her "insights' actually do come true in a way. For > example, when she sees the Grim in POA. Maybe it wasn't the Grim at > all, it was Sirius and she misinterpreted it. > > When we hear a Prophecy we immediately put our own interpretation on > it, when in reality it may be about something else entirely that we > would never have guessed. > > Bonnie BG writes: While listening to OOP CD in prep for Book 6, I discovered many details previously overlooked. JKR puts so many layers in her books and I suppose that is what intrigues us so - but I digress. When Firenze takes over divination, in his first class he explains that humans are not as adept at reading signs as centaurs and that even centaurs are not always correct. It takes years to figure out what they mean and centaurs are ever so more patient. I think she wants us to look at the prophecy in the same light - one cannot always be sure what it foretells - not even Dumbledore. He is a powerful wizard but not infallible as Harry and we all learned in OOP. From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 23:19:22 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:19:22 -0000 Subject: Question: Contest In-Reply-To: <8d.29c240c5.2fef3612@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > Interesting - a dead felon as the Minister of Magic? JKR has said that > Sirius IS dead. > Then again - after Fudge, a dead man might be an improvement. > Sherrie > I think Missouri elected a dead guy for their senator or governor or something. However, the person who wrote that entry did include a longer theory of Sirius in their later predictions, saying that he had faked his own death and, let's face it, if he had faked his own death, JKR couldn't let on, now could she? However, she does say something very interesting in this chat (scroll down). Note that she doesn't answer the question about seeing Sirius again (which means yes), does answer that we're never seeing Regulus again because he's dead, and then doesn't answer the question about the mirror (which means yes.) Interesting . . . ********* JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004 SiriuslyLovinSirius: If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in? JK Rowling replies -> I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of incriminating myself. Cathedral: Will we be hearing anything from Sirius Black's brother, Regulus, in future books? JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these days. Kelpie_8: Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up again? JK Rowling replies -> Ooooo good question. There's your answer. *********** TK -- TigerPatronus From fuzzlebub85 at aol.com Sat Jun 25 23:24:01 2005 From: fuzzlebub85 at aol.com (fuzzlebub85) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:24:01 -0000 Subject: SHIP Remus/Tonks, Sirius and Blood Protection (was: Re: Sirius & Remus) In-Reply-To: <20050623212121.61796.qmail@web54705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131428 Melanie said: Tis interesting she is watching her tongue on that end. I mean what does she have to hide now? Sirius is dead..did he eventually marry? Was their a girl involved...or maybe my theory that Remus is the married one will end up panning out. I still say that Remus and Tonks are married. Yes, I know there is an age difference. But why else would she just be sitting around there all the time. She was there quite a bit more than any other Order member. > > ~Melanie > > Kaylee now: Yes! Remus and Tonks are married! I'm glad someone else thinks so. I know they didn't have many interactions (that Harry saw!) in canon so far, but like Melanie said, Tonks hung around Grimmauld Place quite a lot more than anyone else. Also, I know this is very weak and not really much canon support, but when Dumbledore says to Sirius, in GOF, "Lie low at Lupin's for a while," might that also be because his cousin, Tonks, is living there? It makes sense to me, with all the emphasis on family and blood protection Dumbledore seems to have. Maybe the reason Sirius can't be found is another kind of blood protection charm? Well, I'll leave the questions about dragon's blood and protection charms to TBAY...(since Sirius seems to know how to fight a dragon, GoF again...gah, where's the page where they talk in the fire? Canon anyone?) Just my two Knuts, Kaylee Tonks-Lupin, saluting Captain SSSusan of the DRIBBLE SHADOWS > --------------------------------- > Discover Yahoo! > Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sat Jun 25 23:24:04 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:24:04 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- email entry to Tiger, too Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131429 In order to be entered in the HBP contest, you must also email your entry to *TigerPatronus*at*yahoo*dot*com.* If you don't email it, too, you're not entered and not eligible for the year's supply of butterbeer. You will not get a filk composed in your honor. No one will call you "The HP-est." Seriously, no butterbeer for you! TK -- TigerPatronus -- The Butterbeer Nazi From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 00:03:26 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:03:26 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin - More Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131430 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: >My appeal was to try and get people to view Slytherins, good > and bad, as a spectum that is more a model of real life, in which >even the best of us still has his shades of grey. > But in real life, people do their very best to remove the shades of grey, as they make life much more difficult. Childhood conditioning is really /helpful/ (ironic!!) in this respect, and when you are up against the wall, as the whole WW world is at the moment, then prejudices are usually confirmed in the individual rather than diluted. When threatened, the individual tries to eliminate vulnerablility. I can't see there ever being real trust between Slytherin and the rest of the school. Most will give an uneasy truce to some Slytherins, but they are less, not more likely, to embrace those who have previously been enemies. I do agree, however, that human beings are always shades of grey and this is because I believe that each of us has infinite potential/capability for self expression in ALL directions. I'm also of the more controversial opinion, that good and bad is actually relative to your perspective, not an absolute thing in itself. (eg A world wide natural catastrophe, which wipes out 75% of the world's population and destroys our technological ability, could be viewed as just what nature needs to ensure that life survives on this planet for the next few million years. Is this a good or bad thing?) However, I stand by my point that human beings polarise in times of threat and invest 'whiteness' in their beliefs and their actions in order to survive. I don't believe, as you do Steve, that in adulthood we necessarily 'put away childish things'... > The conflicts between house can easily be understood in the >childish > confines of the schoolyard. (cut text) But later on in life, in order for society to function, > the pettyness of the rivalries has to be dropped. > > I'm reminded of the on-going/always was/never ending rivalry be > between Harvard and Yale Universities. Each thoroughly convinced >that > /their/ university is the best, and that the other is nothing but a > bunch of ego-inflated over-rated hacks. And that's fine for > schoolboys, but once you are out in the business world, these >things > can't be allowed. True the jibs, glib cutting remarks, and teasing > still continue, but when a Harvard man needs a new employee, and a > Yale man is obviously the best man for the job, he doesn't quibble > over schoolboy taunts, he takes a much more practical approach. The guy from Harvard may employ the man from Yale, but that doesn't mean that he has changed his attitude. IMO Capitalist society is based on Slytherin principles. What does the Sorting Hat say about Slytherin qualities: PS p88 Or perhaps in Slytherin You'll make your real friends, Those cunning folk use any means To achieve their ends. Is this not business creed? Is this perhaps why the Harvard woman employs the Yale woman? GoF p 157 And power hungry Slytherin Loved those of great ambition. Is this not politics? What drives those who wish to become rich and famous? Most readers don't like Slytherins, they are manipulated to do so. Yet the society we live in glories in Slytherin principles, and rates very highly what Slytherin principles achieve. That is NOT to say that everyone in our society agrees with this, I'm not too much interested in it myself. Those who create wealth, rate wealth. Those who wield power, rate power. They then set about convincing everyone that money and power are the things to have, and I reckon that nearly everyone living in western capitalist society, including me, would concede that they have had dreams at some point, that either money or power would in some way make them more free and solve some of their problems. We have been educated as children to believe that the solution to our problems has to lie in this direction. JKR noted that one of things she loved about having lots of money was not having to worry about paying bills. Our society is set up in this way - having money is a /good thing/ and within reason, the more we have the better. So it could be argued that Slytherins will make the best movers and shakers in both our and WW society - do we condemn the twins for wanting a successful business? Hermione is the only one to object to their using unprincipled means of getting it (using first years as guinea pigs). So, aware that I'm rambling on and should state my case succinctly, or realise that I don't know what I'm talking about ... If what's happening in the world of the books reflects what happens outside it, then good and bad will be manipulated to fit into viewpoints. Slytherin strengths - end justifies means - use/abuse of power - will be percieved (and presented) as necessarily evil, but Gryffindors will use exactly the same tactics and call it good. I'll be interested to see what DD is working towards as a solution. He calls LV Tom, yet says death is too good for him. Hmmm. I hope JKR doesn't take the easy way out, I'm sure she's inventive enough not to. Saraquel From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 00:30:45 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:30:45 -0000 Subject: Prophecies always come true. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131431 > > BG writes: > While listening to OOP CD in prep for Book 6, I discovered many > details previously overlooked. JKR puts so many layers in her books > and I suppose that is what intrigues us so - but I digress. When > Firenze takes over divination, in his first class he explains that > humans are not as adept at reading signs as centaurs and that even > centaurs are not always correct. It takes years to figure out what > they mean and centaurs are ever so more patient. I think she wants us > to look at the prophecy in the same light - one cannot always be sure > what it foretells - not even Dumbledore. He is a powerful wizard but > not infallible as Harry and we all learned in OOP. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Ok, I'd have to go back and read all this again, to remember what Firenze said. But, I was thinking. The way you just described it, it almost make me think, maybe the centars can predict larger events, like say wars breaking out, or bad things happening on a world wide scale, things like that. It seems to me, I don't know, larger events would be more ruled by the stars, and more local events, like a baby being born would be more ruled by closer things. Like a human making a prophecy....meh, I don't know if that means anything. Its something I was just thinking about when I read your post. KarentheUnicorn From johnk at gwu.edu Sun Jun 26 01:02:21 2005 From: johnk at gwu.edu (John Kearns) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 01:02:21 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131432 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Someone" > wrote: > > Petunia may have willfully forfeited > her > > place at Hogwarts; she may have chosen to remain an untrained > witch; > > but in that case she would still be a 'witch', after all, and not a > > muggle. > > Geoff: > In matters such as innate talents as you mention, I wonder whether > there might be a "use it or lose it" effect. As an example, when I > was much younger, I could speak fairly reasonable French. But since I > have not had the opportunity to practise the language for many, many > years, my knowledge has gone completely. I doubt if I could string > even one sentence together. I take your point about Harry's hair and > Great Uncle Algie's experiments with the coefficient of restitution > but those were under conditions of extreme stress; Petunia, being > Petunia, would arrange her well-ordered life to try to avoid these > conditions...... Jo's Barnes & Noble interview, 1999: Question --> Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students in the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather than as children? Rowling --> No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. John K: When I read through this thread this quote is what immediately came to mind. There are certainly other characters with this potential: Filch and Figg come to mind. But in the context of this conversation, I think Petunia would be the prime candidate. As Geoff said, Petunia has arranged her life to avoid extreme stress. But remember this from OotP chapter 2, referring to Petunia: "All [Harry] knew was that he was not the only person in the room who had an inkling of what Lord Voldemort being back might mean." Petunia knows that Voldemort will threaten Muggles. The dementor attack has made her realize that her family will be atop the list. Surely, this stressful situation she's been avoiding, or in Rowling's words "desperate circumstances," are very feasable in the very near future. In fact, we know that Harry this summer will have his shortest stay yet at the Dursleys, but we don't know why; perhaps he leaves either in response to or in order to prevent an attack on the Dursleys. John K From mcleanaliz at gmail.com Sun Jun 26 01:25:40 2005 From: mcleanaliz at gmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 01:25:40 -0000 Subject: Social change in the WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131433 Just a thought I had on the tram this morning. In many ways, the Wizarding World is old-fashioned, conservative, something from past centuries. Maybe one reason for this is that wizards and witches seem to live longer. Therefore it takes longer for the older generation to "die off" and for the new generation to get its voice heard. What do you think? Love, Alice From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 03:06:21 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 03:06:21 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (mild TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131434 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: >To: Betsy Horridporrid >It was brought to our attention that some of the things you have written in this forum might imply that there is no proof that the House of Slytherin is Evil. Enclosed please find the canon-proven list of our members with their grades in our official S.N.A.K.E. (Seriously Nasty, Amazingly Kewl Evil) test: Betsy Hp: Eep! This will teach me to look through the peep-hole *before* opening the door. However, though you seem to have drunk the Gryffindor kool-aid (silly thing for a Slytherin to do) I will attempt to defend against the obviously influenced dispersions you've cast upon your own house. >Tom Riddle (murderer at 16, currently an evil overlord): O Betsy Hp: Ummm, well... yes. There's not really much to say about that. Tom has really not done his house proud in the "seriously-not-evil" clubs. Perhaps they should have engaged him in more group hugs? Or included him in some of their evening sing alongs? >Salazar Slytherin (invented the pureblood mania, slipped a basilisk into Hogwarts): O Betsy Hp: *Inventor* of pureblood mania?!? Honestly, where's the canon proof of that? I mean, yes, Salazar apparently had some trust issues when it came to those attached to the muggle world (probably had something to do with the witches and wizards being persecuted by muggles at the time) but I'm quite sure he wasn't the first wizard to *ever* distrust outsiders. As to the basilisk, no one really knows *why* Salazar left the basilisk behind. Oh sure, *Tom* had his theories, but are we really expected to trust the word of a murderer? >Lucius Malfoy (DE, slips deadly diaries to little girls): E >Bellatrix Black-Lestrange (DE, professional sadist): E >Rudolphus Lestrange (DE): E >Evan Rosier (DE, deceased): E >Wilkes (DE, deceased): E >Avery (DE and sycophant): E >Narcissa Black-Malfoy (DE's wife, took part in the Kreacher plot): A Betsy Hp: And so we've reached Malfoy's little crew. Lucius did know how to make cunning use of the sing-alongs. Tom was quite clever to recruit him, and it doesn't surprise me that a powerful group was formed from Lucius' school gang. (I often wonder if Voldemort didn't sniff around James Potter whilst he was recruiting. James may have swung a crew of Gryffindors into the Death Eater ranks if he'd been taken in.) I don't deny that Riddle has cast a long shadow over Slytherin, and unfortunately many feel he's reshaped the house into his own image. However, there have been glimmers that his shadow is not as over- reaching as the Gryffindor propaganda has suggested. >Draco Malfoy (DE's son and proud of it, member of Umbridge's IS): A >Vincent Crabbe (DE's son, member of Umbridge's IS): A >Gregory Goyle (DE's son, member of Umbridge's IS): A >Pansy Parkinson (member of Umbridge's IS): P >Bulstrode Millicent (member of Umbridge's IS): P >Montague (member of Umbridge's IS): P Betsy Hp: I'm not really sure why sucking up to the powers that be gets defined as evil. After all, the DA club house had a clearly marked sign, "Slytherins need not apply" and Slytherin needed to do *something* to make sure they got through Umbridge's reign. No member of the IS attacked a fellow student and left him in such a state his parents had to come and collect him. The IS, while not as full of school pride as the DA, isn't really what I'd call evil. >Theodore Nott (DE's son, loyalty unknown): P >Marcus Flint (Quidditch Captain, never heard about fair play): D Betsy Hp: Now you're just grasping at straws. A P for being the son of a DE? (Talk about blood prejudice.) I am glad you saw fit to only give Marcus a D. He's not the greatest guy in the world, but as of yet, I wouldn't classify him as evil. >Severus Snape (ex-DE, currently an Order member, not-nice): D >The Bloody Baron (scary ghost, covered in blood, loyalty unknown): D >Phineas Nigellus (not-very-nice but on Dumbledore's side): T Betsy Hp: Other than the Bloody Baron's ability to control Peeves, I agree that we don't know much about him. The fact that he's allowed to remain at Hogwarts tells me that he's most likely loyal to the school. Since I classify Snape and Nigellus as "good Slytherins" in their own right, I'm not sure why they're even included on this list. They offer proof that Slytherin is *not* evil. >Summary: as you can see, 80% of our canon members had passed the SNAKE test with a grade of P or higher, and 60% with a grade of A or higher. We would also like to draw your attention to the fact that during the period known as the Years of Terror (VW1) the proportion of DEs, out of our all canon-approved Slytherins of the then proper age, was 100% (hundred percents!). We earnestly wish that you would not judge our whole house by the small minority of exceptions which haven't managed to follow our high standards. Even if the legendary being known as "the good Slytherin" will be proved, at some point in the future, to actually exist, we trust that you won't see it as a slur on our house. >As a whole, the House of Slytherin is Evil, Evil, Evil.< Betsy Hp: I question your statistics. You're basing the outlook of an entire house with a history that goes back hundreds of years on a mere handful of alumni. I would also argue that the powers that be (aka JKR), fond as she is of red herrings and big-bangs, has done her best to skew the image of Slytherin. Judgement should wait, in my opinion, until *all* evidence is in. >Sincerely, >The Slytherin Alumni Betsy Hp: You really *did* drink the kool-aid! Don't you recall the warnings about accepting gifts from Gryffindors, *especially* when they're edible? Haven't you heard the rumors about what Gryffindors have done to their *own* housemates?!? But don't worry. There's a very good Slytherin with strong potion skills who'll straighten you right out. :) Betsy Hp, who's a bit nervous she ranked TBAY notice, mild as it was From eileennicholson at aol.com Sun Jun 26 03:14:07 2005 From: eileennicholson at aol.com (eileennicholson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:14:07 EDT Subject: Sirius's whereabouts in GOF and S R SHIP Message-ID: <1e4.3e4b02f4.2fef777f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131435 In a message dated 24/06/2005 21:24:49 GMT Standard Time, _jlnbtr at _ (mailto:jlnbtr at m) writes: I agree, we don't really know where Sirius was, but here's what I *know*: During the summer between PoA and GoF he was probably in some tropical paradise (remember the birds). When Harry wrote him saying the scar was hurting, he went back north, then we learn he's in England. He first talks to Harry through the chimeney, still living in a house I think (Short hair, clean) Eileen: Apologies first; never having been good at building up little snippets through careful analysis into a sound theory (just wish I could), I compensate for it by taking a hypothesis and pushing it to extremes, to see where the weak points are. So I have just read PoA again, taking the point of view of a confirmed S/R shipper. And it seems to me to stand up pretty well. Remus' behaviour is now much more plausible to me than it was before. But maybe this is just because the friendship between Remus and Sirius is a whole lot stronger than I thought when I assumed it was platonic during my previous reading? But when Sirius writes to Harry at the end of PoA, he no longer sounds like a 'demented' prisoner on the run. He's calm and collected, has somewhere safe to hide, is making plans, and is focussed on reassuring Harry. He apologises for the fright his appearance gave Harry at Privet Drive, and encloses permission for Harry to visit Hogsmeade at weekends.This seems to me like a big change from the Sirius who appears in the Shrieking Shack. Did Dumbledore tell him where to go, I wonder? But I digress When Harry sees him packing at the end of PoA, Lupin has just lost the job that he valued so highly, has had to admit to Dumbledore that he betrayed his trust by not telling him about the Animagi transformations, and knows that as he has now been publicly exposed in the wizarding world as a werewolf, he will be facing a future full of the sort of reaction that Ron displayed to him in the Shrieking Shack scene. Along with Harry, I was quite distressed for him when I first read this scene, watching him packing in order to slink away as quickly as possible, with that apologetic smile and his tail between his legs... But when I read it again, that smile of his strikes me. Harry manages a grin, but is miserable, and Dumbledore is sober, but Remus seems unable to suppress that smile for long (5 mentions in two pages), and can't wait to get away. Now, if he was off to meet Sirius..... Reading the letter again, I can better understand why Sirius sounds so calm and organised...it becomes easy if I picture Remus at his shoulder, telling him (grimly) about Trelawney and Harry's teacup, suggesting that he still owes Harry an apology and providing the Hogwarts permission form for him to sign. Perhaps they're planning a tropical holiday? Eileen Who, if she were going to meet Sirius, would be smiling like that too. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sun Jun 26 03:32:01 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:32:01 -0500 Subject: Tiny little spelling question, or Run! It's a LOON, was Re: The good Slytherin (mild TBAY) References: Message-ID: <001101c579ff$9f550de0$7c59aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131436 nkafkafi: >Rudolphus Lestrange (DE): E Going by memory is such an iffy thing, but this just doesn't look right. Isn't his name spelled "Rodolphus"? Somebody who remembers where the mention is and hasn't lent all their books out, confirm? ~Amanda, L.O.O.N., wondering if she's just very tired and remembering wrong From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Jun 26 04:09:09 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 04:09:09 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: <20050625163453.5694.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131437 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > > --- Caius Marcius wrote: > > > What then do you make of the fact that not a single Slytherin > > joined Dumbledore's Army? In fact, no Slytherin even bothered to > > attend the informational meeting at the Hogs Head. > > > Well, it suggests to me that Slytherins aren't joiners by nature, and > especially not joiners of organizations set up by Gryffindors. > Slyths keep themselves to themselves, and keep their cards very close > to their vests. > > I don't think you can assume complicity with evil just because the > Slyths didn't come to the DA info session. Most of the students > there came because of a personal connection with someone Harry knows: > Luna because she has a crush on Ron, Cho because she sort of thinks > she has one on Harry, Marrietta because Cho probably pleaded with her > to come, and the Hufflepuffs because they want to hear the low-down > on what really happened to Cedric. OK, let me get this straight: we are wrong to stereotype the Slytherins, we are to suppose that they all react as individuals, but at the same time the fact that they all seem to move as if in lockstep should be relentlessly excused (they're not *joiners*? Geesh! ). As you correctly note, the students from the other three houses attend the initial DA-info meeting from a variety of motives, ranging from total faith in Harry to budding romantic interest to morbid curiosity. What I find curious is that none of these very human and very common responses impacted any of the 250 or so Slytherins in any way shape or form. If hypothetical "good" Slytherin students start reporting for duty at the HQ of the DA in Book Six, swearing eternal allegience to the verities of the Wizarding World, it will rank as one of the most ill- prepared plot twists of recent literary history. - CMC From zanelupin at gmail.com Sun Jun 26 04:10:30 2005 From: zanelupin at gmail.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 04:10:30 -0000 Subject: Tiny little spelling question, or Run! It's a LOON, was Re: The good Slytherin (mild TBAY) In-Reply-To: <001101c579ff$9f550de0$7c59aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131438 I apologize for any strange formatting and attribute it entirely to Yahoomort as the message looked normal before I clicked "preview" the first time. I tried to fix it, but who knows what will happen when I hit "send?" Neri: >> Rudolphus Lestrange (DE): E L.O.O.N.y Amanda nitpicked :-): > Going by memory is such an iffy thing, but this just doesn't look > right. > Isn't his name spelled "Rodolphus"? Somebody who remembers where the > mention is and hasn't lent all their books out, confirm? KathyK: Your memory is just fine. "Rodolphus" is the correct spelling, and can be found in OoP in Chapter 6, "The Noble And Most Ancient House of Black," US ed. p. 114. Also, Lucius utters his name spelled thusly in Chapter 35, "Beyond the Veil," US p.788. KathyK, wondering what purpose wearing masks and face-hiding hoods serves the Death Eaters when they all wander around calling each other by name, anyway. Just the fear factor? Even if they expected none of the children to survive the encounter in the DoM, it seems an unnecessary risk. Must be the intimidation, then. Huh. From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sun Jun 26 05:22:23 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:22:23 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131439 Several times it is mentioned that the Sorting Hat is very large. I am now listening to CoS again and when Harry is in Dumbledore's office, he tries it on again and it slips over his ears AGAIN. WHY is the hat so big? When children are 12, their heads are pretty much full sized, so one wouldn't expect a normal sized hat to be that big. So, either Godrick Griffindor had an unusually large head or he liked wearing gigantic hats. I speculated before that GG may be the half blood prince - half human, half ??? What else is very large besides giants and trolls? Goblins are small, as are dwarves. Greek God? GODrick Griffindor? Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 26 05:48:53 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 01:48:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42BE41C5.2090205@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131440 Laura Lynn Walsh wrote: >Several times it is mentioned that the Sorting Hat is >very large. I am now listening to CoS again and when >Harry is in Dumbledore's office, he tries it on again >and it slips over his ears AGAIN. WHY is the hat so >big? When children are 12, their heads are pretty much >full sized, so one wouldn't expect a normal sized hat >to be that big. So, either Godrick Griffindor had an >unusually large head or he liked wearing gigantic >hats. I speculated before that GG may be the half >blood prince - half human, half ??? What else is >very large besides giants and trolls? Goblins are >small, as are dwarves. Greek God? GODrick Griffindor? > > heather now: Well, I was just looking at the house crests again, and was reminded that Gryffindor's symbol animal is a lion (representing strength and bravery of course). I would not be at all surprised if old Godric was an animagus who turned into a lion. Of course the 'gryffin' part of 'gryffindor' implies something lion-like about him already. I suspect that the 'lion man' who has been described is GG himself. Whether or not he's the HBP is, of course, another question. But, if he was a large, lion-like fellow, that could explain his larger-than-usual hat. He had a big mane to fit it over, after all. Oh hey, I just thought of something. Gryffindor and slytherin are the Lion and the Serpent -- Lion is often used as a christ-figure allegory, and the serpent is of course Lucifer, the betrayer. They started out 'together' but lucifer fell... Eagles (Ravenclaw) are also prominent is christian mythology (esp. eschatological) but I don't recall too much about badgers (Hufflepuff)... heather the buzzard From bob.oliver at cox.net Sun Jun 26 06:03:03 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 06:03:03 -0000 Subject: Emphasis on proper address was: Snape as father figure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131441 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prncssme" wrote: > Phoenixgod says: > > > Princess Sara: > You're assuming I don't act like Snape. ;o) Actually, I see your point here. I just think it's > problematic for students to separate the teacher-in-office from the teacher-as-person in > terms of respect. I can't remember which post it was but someone on the list mentioned > that Harry knows little to nothing about the man himself. And I think we may have to wait > to see the O.W.L. results before we can judge how effective his *ahem* abrasive teaching > style is. > Well, but how effective his teaching style is remains totally beside the point. Snape, IMO, is abusive and totally undeserving of respect, irregardless of how well his students do on the OWLS. Even if Harry gets an "O," I will still firmly maintain that he is well within his rights to view Snape with nothing but contempt and to withhold respect from him. Effectiveness is not a defense for abuse - EVER. Lupinlore From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jun 26 07:01:25 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:01:25 -0000 Subject: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: <42BE41C5.2090205@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: heather: > Well, I was just looking at the house crests again, and was reminded > that Gryffindor's symbol animal is a lion (representing strength and > bravery of course). I would not be at all surprised if old Godric was > an animagus who turned into a lion. Of course the 'gryffin' part of > 'gryffindor' implies something lion-like about him already. I suspect > that the 'lion man' who has been described is GG himself. > > Whether or not he's the HBP is, of course, another question. > > But, if he was a large, lion-like fellow, that could explain his > larger-than-usual hat. He had a big mane to fit it over, after all. > > Oh hey, I just thought of something. Gryffindor and slytherin are the > Lion and the Serpent -- Lion is often used as a christ-figure allegory, > and the serpent is of course Lucifer, the betrayer. They started out > 'together' but lucifer fell... Geoff: The only problem here is that Gryffindor is derived from Griffin d'or (golden Griffin) allowing that there are variant spelling of griffin. According to my dictionary, a griffin has the head and wings of an eagle and the body of a lion so (1) it isn't going to have a mane and (2) it really can't be used for lion symbolism in the Christ and Lucifer comparison. (Strictly speaking they didn't exactly start "together" because Lucifer was the greatest of the angels /created/ by God.) Totally irrelevant to the discussion but of interest to me is that the symbol of Somerset, the county in which I live, is a scarlet griffin. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Jun 26 07:57:45 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:57:45 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius" wrote: > As you correctly note, the students from the other three > houses attend the initial DA-info meeting from a variety of motives, > ranging from total faith in Harry to budding romantic interest to > morbid curiosity. What I find curious is that none of these very > human and very common responses impacted any of the 250 or so > Slytherins in any way shape or form. > Hickengruendler: I think we can see it the other way around as well. The Slytherins weren't told about the DA. Look who were the members of the group: The Trio; Ron's silblings, who of course are trusted by the Trio and believed in Voldemort's return; Neville and Dean, who share a dorm with Harry and Ron, (I'm sure Seamus was asked as well, but didn't join because of his argument with Harry. This is IMO proved by how fast he joined after they made up); Lavender and Parvati, who share a dorm with Hermione; the members of the Gryffindor Quidditch-Team; Lee Jordan, who was probably told by the twins; Colin, who according to CoS gets alonmg pretty well with Ginny, and it's therefore likely to assume that he was told by her; Dennis, Colin's brother, who was probably told by Colin; Cho Chang, who Hermione realized Harry was romantically interested in and who was Cedric's girlfried and therefore had a more personal reason to join anyway; Marietta, who was probably told by Cho; Padma, who was probably told by Parvati; Michael, who according to Hermione was told by Ginny; Michael's friend, who obviously were told by him; Luna and Ernie; who both openly supported Harry in Hermione's presence; Ernie's friends. This was a very close-knitted group (and obviously so, because they couldn't risk to tell everybody), that only includes people trusted by Harry, Ron and Hermione, or people who are trusted by people HRH trusted. The only exception was Zacharias Smith, who according to Hermione overheard her telling Ernie about the group at the Hufflepuff table. It is therefore likely to assume that no Slytherin joined the DA, because most, if not all, Slytherin's didn't know about the DA. And if Slytherins knew about it, than at the very least they didn't run to Umbridge telling her about it. However, this also makes me doubt what Betsy said, that Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs have a more neutral relationship with the Slytherins than the others do. It seems that none of them trusted any Slytherin enough to tell them about the DA. Hickengruendler From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 26 09:22:42 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:22:42 -0000 Subject: Hedwig/SortgHt/Switchingl/IWant/Bode'sVisitor/Pensieve/Wedding/Luna/Bike/ Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131444 "sesshomiru25" wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130988 : << Has anyone ever thought that Dumbledore may be an animagus and his form may be a white owl, say "Hedgwig". This is just a theory but it would explain how Dumbledore knows a lot about what Harry does without using occulmency. >> Whenever this is suggested, someone points out that it's impossible because DD is a MALE wizard and Hedwig is a FEMALE owl, so it is unneccessary to search canon for scenes in which they appear together. Tinglinger wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130996 : << 9. The sorting hat's song .... (ss 117) "There's nothing hidden in your head The Sorting Hat can't see" and later ... (ss 121) "you could be great you know, it's all here in your head" ------------------------------------------------------------------ Yeah.....like the Dark Lord is... just biding his time.... >> As Firebird wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131424 << Let's recall Harry's first encounter with the Sorting Hat, and why he was so hard to place: "Plenty of courage, I see ..." (a classic Gryffindor trait) "Not a bad mind either ..." (sounds like Ravenclaw) "There's talent, oh my goodness, yes ..." (probably points to Slytherin, but not definitive) "-- and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting." (ambition = Slytherin). >> except that some listie once suggested that 'now that's interesting' was Parselmouth. In your theory here, it could be Dark Lord. Tinglinger wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130996 : << 10. (ss 155) Hermione to Ron and Harry "... and you'll lose all the points I got from Professor McGonagall for knowing about Switching Spells" ------------------------------------------------------------- Switching spells are mentioned but never described - what are the consequences of a Switching Spell gone wrong? I always felt that Harry was hit by this spell rather than an AK spell at Godric's Hollow... >> Well, we know that Switching Spells are part of Transfiguration, because the first year Transfiguration textbook was authored by Emeric Switch, and McGonagall, the Transfiguration teacher, hissed at Neville not to let anyone from Durmstrang know that he couldn't even do a simple Switching Spell. Lupinlore wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131005 : << What conversations do you want most to see in HBP? What characters do you really want to see interacting and how? >> 1. Ginny and Hermione to Ron and Harry: "We're engaged! Pick your jaw up off the floor, Ron. Of course we can't get married until Ginny leaves school, but then we want you both to be our best man, or man of honor, or whatever the word is." Meri August wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131011 : << The visitor is described as an "old and stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet". Now, what I want to know is, who the heck is this guy? It is possible, and entirely likely, that it is just one of Bode's relations come to cheer him up, but couldn't it also have been a disguised DE come to see how he's doing and whether or not he'll need to be finished off? >> I always assumed it was Croaker, Bode's work colleague. When Arthur was telling the kids the names of passing wizards at the QWC site, one pair was "Bode and Croaker -- they're Unspeakables," meaning that they worked in the Department of Mysteries. Pitaprh wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131064 : << When you put memories into a pensive are they then removed from your mind? (snip) Does Dumbledor on a daily basis remember the court case of Barty Crouch JR, does he have to return to the pensive to recall it? >> I think that Dumbledore on a daily basis remembers that he was at the sentencing of Barty Crouch Jr and that he put the details into his Pensieve. Gerry Festuco wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131085 : << I would prefer Hagrid and Mme Maxine's wedding. I want true love for Hagrid! >> I don't think Olympe would be happy if she stopped being Headmistress of Beauxbatons. Whether Hagrid would be happy as gamekeeper, keeper of the keys, and headmistress's husband at Beauxbatons would depend on whether 'interestin' critters' are allowed at Beauxbatons ... Fleur's rude comments about, I think it was Peeves, wouldn't be allowed at Beauxbatons suggest that it's not a good fit for Hagrid. Anyway, Hagrid wouldn't want to leave Hogwarts as long as Dumbledore and Harry were there, so the wedding should wait for the end of book 7, when Harry leaves school and DD goes to his 'next great adventure'. Betsy hp wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131104 : << Gryffindor would have refused Luna. >> Not if her courageous disregard for facing physical danger matches up to her courageous disregard for being unpopular and mocked. saieditor predicted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131105 : << Harry will have a dream communication from Sirius and locate the Flying Motorbike. Harry will use this Motorbike to travel ~ and fly back in time with Hermione (and possibly Ron) to Godrics Hollow looking for a certain clue. >> Is the Flying Motorcycle on that little island where Hagrid caught up with Harry and the Dursleys (sounds like a bad name for a rockk band)? When Hagrid said he 'flew' to the island, he meant he flew on the motorcycle? Then he left it behind when he left by boat? Betsy hp wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131209 : << we know of at least one Slytherin who rejected the ideology enough to *marry* a muggle-born. >> Do you mean Tom Marvolo Riddle's mother? I don't think we know that she was in Slytherin House just because she was a descendent of Slytherin. Karen the Unicorn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131232c : << The idea of being Pureblood, the big ideas of having kids continue the pureblood ideals, and the pureblood line, don't seem like very non gender related topic to me. It is harkening back to the days when women were sold to the highest bidder, and, (snip) it is also being brought up in a very non gender friendly way, if you ask me. A woman would be forced to accept her family's choice, purely based on the bloodline and nothing else. >> I don't think the pure-bloodism is a sign of gender bias. A woman, like Andromeda Black, could be disowned by her racist family for marrying a Muggle born, but surely a man could also be disowned by his racist family for marrying a Muggle born (as Alisha mentioned in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131276 ). There IS some appearance of gender bias in the appearance that married witches take their husband's surnames (Molly Weasley, Narcissa Malfoy) and therefore the family line must be passed through the male offspring ... On the one hand, that victimizes daughters by limiting how much of their parents' property they can inherit. But on the other hand, it makes the (oldest or favored) son more victimised than the daughter in terms of choosing whom to marry. Because the daughter could marry the man of her choice merely at the cost of being disowned by her family, while the son would be limited to marrying a pureblood witch, even if he were in love with a Muggle or a male ... I could imagine a family like the Blacks using anything from an Imperius curse to a threat of murdering the beloved to force their heir to marry a pureblood. Tamara wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131242 : << Do you think Lord Voldemort was born so terribly evil, or was he made that way by his circumstances? >> Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort was so terribly evil ever since he was first conceived in the mind of Joanne Rowling. No one in this novel (or any novel) has any free will and none made any free choice, because they are all controlled by The Author. And at any point in the story, the Author knows what will happen to them in the rest of the story. It is not clear whether Real Life is similar ... I will speak of knowing the future a couple of paragraphs down. The effect that circumstances have on a person differs from person to person. Some, maybe a large part, of the difference is because of the person's in-born traits and some is because of (the effect of) the person's previous experiences. So one difference between abused baby Tom and abused baby Harry is that they are different people, and another is that Tom went in the orphanage directly at birth, while Harry had a first year and a half with loving parents (and IMHO Lily magically stayed in his mind to comfort and advise him after her death). Reading Tom Riddle in the Chamber of Secrets, I am convinced that he is a sociopath, which I believe has been discovered to be a mental condition caused by the physical brain that a person is born with. That makes the comparison between him and Harry as an example of free will be not a very good comparison, because little Tommy baby didn't CHOOSE to be physically unable to empathise with other people or to feel love for anyone. It is a trait that made it a whole lot easier for him to become evil. Eustace Scrubb wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131376 : << But having free will doesn't mean that one escapes the prophecy. Oedipus later discovered that he had been adopted by Polybus of Corinth and that the man he killed on the road to Delphi was in fact his real father and that he had in fact married his mother. Prophecy fulfilled. And it's not just a matter of interpretation. It objectively worked out that way. >> Prophecies that come true because they are true prophecies (as opposed to prophecies that come true because of co-incidence, or because they were cleverly worded to be true no matter what happened, or because they were predicted by someone who had a lot of information) raise the same problem as time travel where visitors from the future cannot change the past. It is the famous Problem of Free Will. Every present is someone else's past, so if the past cannot be changed, all a person can do in the present is what the future knows that he/she did. How can my will be free if I can only choose the choice that actually will happened? ("will happened" is my feeble attempt at vocabulary for time travel). JoTwo wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131383 : << To recap, the canon argument for Snape being there is that originally Dumbledore was tipped off by a spy that the Potters were in danger, and we know Snape was a spy. If he was trying to protect Lily and James, on finding out that the Secret Keeper had told Voldemort of their whereabouts, it would be logical for Snape to have gone to Godric's Hollow to warn them. >> Snape couldn't have gone to Godric's Hollow to warn them, unless he as well as Voldemort had been told the Secret by the Secret Keeper. Dumbledore could have told the Potters about Snape's warning. Dumbledore could have summoned James to Floo his head to Hogwarts for Snape to warn him. Someone (Dumbledore or LV) who had a note on which the Secret Keeper had written the Secret could have showed Snape the note, and *then* he could have gone to Godric's Hollow to warn them. I believe Dumbledore was told the Secret via note, which is how he failed to know that Peter, not Sirius, was the Secret Keeper. I can't think of any particular reason why LV would have been told the Secret by note. Alice Loves Cats wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131433 : << In many ways, the Wizarding World is old-fashioned, conservative, something from past centuries. Maybe one reason for this is that wizards and witches seem to live longer. Therefore it takes longer for the older generation to "die off" and for the new generation to get its voice heard. >> This is a forbidden "I quite agree!" post. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 11:11:21 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 04:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Social change in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050626111121.55431.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131445 -- alice_loves_cats wrote: > In many ways, the Wizarding World is old-fashioned, conservative, > something from past centuries. Maybe one reason for this is that > wizards and witches seem to live longer. Therefore it takes longer > for > the older generation to "die off" and for the new generation to get > its voice heard. Good point. Especially since the Wizan-whatever seems to be the only wizard governing authority and it's made up largely of wizards and witches who've "paid their dues", so to speak. A society where great reverence is paid to senior citizens and survivors. On the other hand, it's also a society where the Prime Directive is "don't let the muggles find out!" so I'm not sure that sticking to old-fashioned ideas/things isn't at least partly a way to keep separate from the muggle world. Magda (likes cats too) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 11:25:25 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 04:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050626112526.48464.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131446 --- Caius Marcius wrote: > > OK, let me get this straight: we are wrong to stereotype the > Slytherins, we are to suppose that they all react as individuals, > but > at the same time the fact that they all seem to move as if in > lockstep should be relentlessly excused (they're not *joiners*? > Geesh! ). I suppose this is meant to be a withering comeback that should leave me abashed and trembling, but since I didn't say any such thing, I'll be excused for not reacting that way. > As you correctly note, the students from the other three > houses attend the initial DA-info meeting from a variety of > motives, > ranging from total faith in Harry to budding romantic interest to > morbid curiosity. What I find curious is that none of these very > human and very common responses impacted any of the 250 or so > Slytherins in any way shape or form. I also noted, which you haven't included, that all of the others who came had a personal connection of some kind to the Trio. None of the non-Draco Slytherins has a similar connection. I think it's the connection rather than the motive that moved the others to attend. > If hypothetical "good" Slytherin students start reporting for duty > at > the HQ of the DA in Book Six, swearing eternal allegience to the > verities of the Wizarding World, it will rank as one of the most > ill-prepared plot twists of recent literary history. Not at all; JKR has prepared us for it by deliberately excluding most of the Slytherins (and Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws) from Harry's conscious awareness, and as his circle grows, he will confront new kids. Should he have done this earlier? Probably but Harry's lack of curiosity is almost proverbial by now we'll just have to accept it. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 11:28:33 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 04:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050626112833.56888.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131447 Petunia's reference to "that awful boy" telling Lily about Azkaban and the Dementors. Harry immediately leaps to the conclusion she's referring to James. Leaping to conclusions is a Bad Thing in JKR-land and so we can be pretty sure that Harry is wrong. I don't know that this will be a huge plot point but we'll probably find out who it was when we find out more about Lily. Magda (who's betting it was Snape and prays it's not a sign of a SS/LE ship) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 12:45:44 2005 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 05:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050626124544.34892.qmail@web30314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131448 In my re-read to prepare for HPB, I ran across a line that jumped out at me as it had not before: [Barty Crouch] "And both of us had the pleasure... the very great pleasure... of killing our fathers, to ensure the continued rise of the Dark Order!" [Bloombury paperback, p. 589] Huh?? OK, I get Barty Crouch killing his father to ensure the rise of the Dark Order, but Tom Riddle??? He didn't just off Dad and the Grans for vengeance, apparently, but how would a death in 1945 ensure the rise of the Dark Order twenty years later? And if it's a reference to his rebirth, how would he have known in 1945 he needed to kill his father? Hmmm.... akh, who's willing to admit she may be over-analyzing the text... --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 13:10:42 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 06:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which "One liners" do you think most beg for an explanation ? In-Reply-To: <20050626124544.34892.qmail@web30314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050626131042.66451.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131449 --- AnitaKH wrote: > In my re-read to prepare for HPB, I ran across a line that jumped > out at me as it had not before: > > [Barty Crouch] "And both of us had the pleasure... the very great > pleasure... of killing our fathers, to ensure the continued rise of > the Dark Order!" [Bloombury paperback, p. 589] > > Huh?? OK, I get Barty Crouch killing his father to ensure the rise > of the Dark Order, but Tom Riddle??? He didn't just off Dad and > the Grans for vengeance, apparently, but how would a death in 1945 > ensure the rise of the Dark Order twenty years later? And if it's > a reference to his rebirth, how would he have known in 1945 he > needed to kill his father? Hmmm.... The killing of Tom Sr. and the grandparents was Tom Jr's first step in eradicating his post - permanently. The existence of a muggle dad would have been highly embarassing for an ambitious Dark Lord to have to acknowledge. The comparision isn't exact, of course, but I put that down to Voldemort's ability to create an apparently special bond with his DE's and make them feel quite singled out for attention. I'm sure Barty Jr. loves the idea that he and Voldemort have a unique connection. Magda ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Sun Jun 26 10:04:45 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:04:45 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131450 Hope its not too late to enter... 1. Who will be the most major character to die? A Weasley, probably Percy, (2nd guess would be Fudge ? could be why he is not MoM anymore). 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Dumbledore. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (I think she has a few) I think she may have saved LV life at one stage (or prevented someone from killing him) i.e. when Harry saved Pettigrew, Dumbledore said that a certain bond is created when you save another wizards life and that it is "magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable" I think when LV tried to attack Harry whilst in the arms of Lily, LV was breaking this magical bond, hence the magical bond between Lily and LV saved Harry .something like that.. I also think she had a fling with Lupin (he seemed to have romanticized about her when he talks about her with Harry in PoA (movie)). 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character (I don't know who, but I don't think it's the lion guy). I would like it to be Tonks, but I think she will be too busy in the Order. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I like the idea of Hermione and Harry, but I think Ginny will be the "little romance" in his life. (Besides ? I think Ron shows too much jealousy and interest in Hermione to allow Harry to have her). I don't think they will date, but since the experience in the Department of Mysteries, I think without realizing both Ginny and Harry will start to confide in each other. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Lucius ? I think he will buy his way in; he seemed to donate quite a lot to the Ministry, so I wouldn't be surprised. ? don't know how he will do it with him being in Azkaban, but I suppose the dementors will stray with Voldemort out of the closet. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledores pensive 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yep 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes ? I think he will need to know some concoctions for his future in Herbology. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Ron will end up as captain of the Quiddich team for Griffindor, Ginny will make chaser .I think Harry will be too busy with DA and other secret lessons to be captain but will remain seeker. 2. The lion guy is a manticore. 3. I think the 4 houses will unite (including slytherin) and I think it will eventually include Draco uniting. I think Draco is very scared of LV, and maybe something will happen to Lucius or Narcissa forcing Draco to unite with the rest of the school 4. I too think that Neville will excel once he gets his own wand ? especially since the last was his dads and may not have suited him, just like the many wands that didn't suit Harry. I also think Neville will have much more confidence in this book, especially after his experience with Harry and the DA lessons. 5. The three times that Lily and James Defied LV will be revealed to Harry by Dumbledore. 6. Harry and Dumbledore will become very close (father - son relationship) so that JK Rowling can kill Dumbledore off for us in the 7th book, making her avid readers bawl uncontrollably for weeks on end. 7. Harry will inherit Sirius gold and anything else in Gringotts vault # 711. pot_of_harry From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 26 14:10:00 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:10:00 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius" wrote: > > OK, let me get this straight: we are wrong to stereotype the > Slytherins, we are to suppose that they all react as individuals, but > at the same time the fact that they all seem to move as if in > lockstep should be relentlessly excused (they're not *joiners*? Pippin: There is a notable example in canon which shows that they do not all move as in lockstep. Gof-US 37,723 ...Harry saw that Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and many of the other Slytherins had remained defiantly in their seats, their goblets untouched. --- So we know that at least a few of them defiantly followed Dumbledore's lead rather than Malfoy's and drank to Harry. Dumbledore's eyes were on the Slytherin table ("his eyes lingered on the Durmstrang students") as he said "we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided." Between that and the Sorting Hat's new song, the revelation that even the hardcore Black family turned against Voldie, and Harry's grumble that he's not going to be reaching out to Slytherin any time soon, or words to that effect, it'd be a misfired Chekhov's gun and a mishandled plot development if the issue of Slytherins joining the fight against Voldie never surfaces. Pippin From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Sun Jun 26 14:17:15 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:17:15 -0000 Subject: OT: Incurable pedantry (Was: Emphasis on proper address...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131452 > Well, but how effective his teaching style is remains totally beside > the point. Snape, IMO, is abusive and totally undeserving of respect, > irregardless of how well his students do on the OWLS. Even if Harry > gets an "O," I will still firmly maintain that he is well within his > rights to view Snape with nothing but contempt and to withhold respect > from him. Effectiveness is not a defense for abuse - EVER. > > Lupinlore Dungrollin: Trying and failing to fight down the impulse... gnawing off fingers in attempt... stabbing compass into thigh... no... it's no good... Absolutely no offence meant, but there is NO SUCH WORD AS IRREGARDLESS. You mean irrespective or regardless. Sorry. I'll get me coat. Dung. From johnk at gwu.edu Sun Jun 26 14:33:33 2005 From: johnk at gwu.edu (John Kearns) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:33:33 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131453 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius" wrote: > OK, let me get this straight: we are wrong to stereotype the > Slytherins, we are to suppose that they all react as individuals, > but at the same time the fact that they all seem to move as if in > lockstep should be relentlessly excused (they're not *joiners*? > Geesh! ). As you correctly note, the students from the other three > houses attend the initial DA-info meeting from a variety of > motives, ranging from total faith in Harry to budding romantic > interest to morbid curiosity. What I find curious is that none of > these very human and very common responses impacted any of the 250 > or so Slytherins in any way shape or form. > - CMC John K, trying to respond without duplicating anything that's been said: I have a very hard time believing that none of the 250 Slytherins would have been interested in the DA, just as I have a hard time believing that none of the 720 Gryffindors, Hufflepuffs, and Ravenclaws not present would have joined. As has been mentioned, none of them knew about the DA, and if they did it is in fact evidence for them *not* being evil because they didn't alert the authorities. You must also remember that we see everything through the ever-so- frustrating Harry-filter. They all seem to move in evil lockstep, sure, but he also knows only a handful of them, and these seem to be Malfoy's friends, the quidditch team, and the IS and no more. Once his stereotype is planted - before he even arrives at Hogwarts - he's expecting all Slytherins to behave similarly, and is therefore looking for that behavior (and quite likely ignoring any contradictions). Remember that Harry thought Penelope was a Slytherin- he doesn't even know who they are aside from those who fit his stereotype. There is certainly ample evidence for Slytherin apologists. Salazar was anti-Muggle, but he lived in a different time, where magic was persecuted, and perhaps had reason to be fearful. Draco tries to make friends with Harry and most of his actions can be explained through stereotypes learned at home, jealousy of Harry's fame, and reaction to some equally-bad actions taken by the trio. Goyle, it seems, was not in the IS, nor was his father at the MoM. Nott is in Draco's year but seemingly is not friends with him. Snape's a nasty guy, but he's saved Harry's life twice. I could continue giving examples *almost* all the way down your list. Yes, of course there is canon evidence for the evil Slytherins. The story is told from Harry's perspective. But when we put it in context, there is also a fair amount of evidence that not all Slytherins are evil at all, and in fact, that many are good. What were there, maybe 50 DEs at the height of it all (a liberal estimate)? What about the other 1020 Slytherins to graduate over a 30-year period or so? This argument reminds me of ships. We've been deliberately set up so that any of a dozen things could plausibly happen. In the meantime, there's plenty of evidence every which way, but there's no *proof* of anything at all. Not to mention, the evidence that does exist manages to create some very passionate opinions - mine included. ;) John K From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 16:06:50 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:06:50 -0000 Subject: OT: Incurable pedantry (Was: Emphasis on proper address...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131454 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" > Trying and failing to fight down the impulse... gnawing off fingers > in attempt... stabbing compass into thigh... no... it's no good... > > Absolutely no offence meant, but there is NO SUCH WORD AS > IRREGARDLESS. You mean irrespective or regardless. > Sorry. I'll get me coat. Sure there is: it's right here in my "Webster's New International Dictionary" (2nd ed.)--right between "irrefutability" and "irregeneracy". Webster doesn't seem to care for it much, but there it is. Of course, you have an unalienable right to your opinion. Amiable Dorsai From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 16:21:19 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:21:19 -0000 Subject: Tiny little spelling question, or Run! It's a LOON, was Re: The good Slytherin ( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131455 > Neri: > > >> Rudolphus Lestrange (DE): E > > L.O.O.N.y Amanda nitpicked :-): > > > > Going by memory is such an iffy thing, but this just doesn't look > > right. > > Isn't his name spelled "Rodolphus"? Somebody who remembers where > the > > mention is and hasn't lent all their books out, confirm? > > KathyK: > > Your memory is just fine. "Rodolphus" is the correct spelling, and > can be found in OoP in Chapter 6, "The Noble And Most Ancient House > of Black," US ed. p. 114. Also, Lucius utters his name spelled > thusly in Chapter 35, "Beyond the Veil," US p.788. Neri: Thanks for the correction. My only excuse is that, in order to be exact and thorough, I was listing all canon Slytherins according to their page in the Lexicon: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/hogwarts/houses/slytherin.html and this is where I also got the error in spelling Rodolphus' name. This is obviously a single error of the Lexicon, since in their Which Wizard page Rodolphus indeed appears by his correct spelling. Neri From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Sun Jun 26 14:39:35 2005 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:39:35 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131456 This one is easy to answer, there are no good Slytherns. I've been rereading the books to get ready for HBP and not once do you see a single decent or honorable act by a Slythern. Not once does a single Slythern student perform a act of friendship or tolerance for Harry nor do you read of any Slytherns disapproving of Drago Malfoy's actions. All you see is a bunch of nasty little snakes trying to craw up the ferret's ass as far as they can go. It not just Malfoy but all of Slythern House that has declared themselves Harry's enemies. If there is such a thing as good(non evil more likely)Slythern then they will probably show up in HBP with the news that Voldemort is back. I hope that they will be some Slytherns that want nothing to do with Voldemort and this will lead them seek out an alliance with the other Houses. But they will have to make the first move. They will have to show contrition to their school mates and they will have to first apologize to Harry and make a show of friendship not the other way around. McMax From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 26 16:40:44 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:40:44 -0000 Subject: OT: Incurable pedantry (Was: Emphasis on proper address...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131457 > > Dung: > > Absolutely no offence meant, but there is NO SUCH WORD AS > > IRREGARDLESS. You mean irrespective or regardless. > > Sorry. I'll get me coat. > > Amiable Dorsai: > Sure there is: it's right here in my "Webster's New International > Dictionary" (2nd ed.)--right between "irrefutability" and > "irregeneracy". Webster doesn't seem to care for it much, but there > it is. > > Of course, you have an unalienable right to your opinion. Ah, a descriptivist, prescripivist debate. For the record, my copy of `Mind the Gaffe' ? the Penguin guide to common errors in English ? states that there is *no such word*. It is also not mentioned in my copy of Chambers (UK) English dictionary. But people continue to use it, so therefore there /is/ such a word, QED. Quoting from one of my favourite websites on language use (www.worldwidewords.org - a useful resource for pedants like me): "[Q] "I have more than once seen the corruption irregardless used in some standard writings and with a straight face. Has it become acceptable?" "[A] The word is thoroughly and consistently condemned in all American references I can find. But it's also surprisingly common. It's formed from regardless by adding the negative prefix ir-; as regardless is already negative, the word is considered a logical absurdity. "It's been around a while: the Oxford English Dictionary quotes a citation from Indiana that appeared in Harold Wentworth's American Dialect Dictionary of 1912. And it turns up even in the better newspapers from time to time: as here from the New York Times of 8 February 1993: "Irregardless of the benefit to children from what he calls his `crusade to rescue American education,' his own political miscalculations and sometimes deliberate artlessness have greatly contributed to his present difficulties". "But, as I say, it's still generally regarded by people with an informed opinion on the matter as unacceptable. The Third Edition of The American Heritage Dictionary states firmly that "the label `nonstandard' does not begin to do justice to the status of this word" and "it has no legitimate antecedents in either standard or nonstandard varieties of English". Some writers even try to turn it into a non-word, virtually denying its existence, which is pretty hard to do in the face of the evidence. The level of abuse hurled at the poor thing is astonishingly high, almost as great as that once directed at hopefully. It seems to have become something of a linguistic shibboleth. "That's strange because, as Professor Laurence Horn of Yale University points out, the duplication of negative affixes is actually quite common in English. Few users query words such as debone and unravel because they are so familiar. In earlier times there were even more such words, many recorded from the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: unboundless, undauntless, uneffectless, unfathomless and many others. "Grammarians of the eighteenth century and after?who had a greater sense of logic than feel for the language?did much to stamp them out. They argued that, in language as in mathematics, two negatives make a positive: putting two negatives together cancels them out. This has been the basis for condemnation of statements like "I never said nothing to nobody", which aren't standard British or American English. But in many other languages?and in some local or dialectal forms of English both today and in earlier times?multiple negatives are intensifiers, adding emphasis. "Irregardless has a fine flow about it, with a stronger negative feel than regardless that some people obviously find attractive. Indeed, the stress pattern of the word probably influenced the addition of the prefix, as the stress in regardless is on gar, which makes it sound insufficiently negative, despite the -less suffix. "So the precedents are all on the side of irregardless and?despite the opinions of the experts?I suspect that the word will become even more popular in the US in the future. For the moment, though, it is best avoided in formal writing." So there you go. From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 17:00:12 2005 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:00:12 -0000 Subject: HP Chat - Is going on today. Please read. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131458 HP:1 is not available. That's Ok, HP Chat is still on. Please come to this link: http://www.rayzonz.com/cmps_index.php? As to why HP:1 is not working, according to posts on HPFGU OT Chatter, including an article, Yahoo has turned off the "user" created chat rooms. I am not a list elf and I will leave the offical word and a permanent solution up to them. I simply wanted us to have somewhere to chat, especially with 19 days to go til book 6. From prncssme at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 18:01:42 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:01:42 -0000 Subject: Abusive Snape was: Emphasis on proper address In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131459 Lupinlore says: > Well, but how effective his teaching style is remains totally beside > the point. Snape, IMO, is abusive and totally undeserving of respect, > irregardless of how well his students do on the OWLS. Even if Harry > gets an "O," I will still firmly maintain that he is well within his > rights to view Snape with nothing but contempt and to withhold respect > from him. Effectiveness is not a defense for abuse - EVER. > > Lupinlore Princess Sara's defense: Okay, I was just going to let this one go but I just want it on the record that I, in no way, think abuse is EVER justified or defendable. But honestly, I just don't think Snape is all that abusive. High handed, overly critical, biased toward his own house and deeply unhappy in his current position but not abusive. I think this is why we will never agree on the respect of Snape issue. I still maintain that however Snape treats Harry (which, imho, is not even NEAR the level of abuse shown by the Dursleys), the man has saved his life on numerous occasions. I also believe that Snape cannot treat Harry well without raising the suspicions of certain DE children in Slytherin house. But when they are alone, a la the occlumency lessons, Snape shows remarkable restraint and dare I say it, politeness until Harry crosses the line and looks into the pensieve. I just keep thinking about Snape's almost sympathetic reaction to Harry's memory of being chased up a tree by Aunt Marge's dog. It seems incongrous with a Snape who will exploit any weakness to hurt Harry. I just think that condemning Snape out of hand based on the point of view of a teenage boy is unfair to the character. And until JKR tells me that Snape is working for Voldemort and wants to beat the living snot out of Harry, I'll say he's worthy of respect. - Princess Sara, who, as you might have guessed, is a rampant Snape fangirl and who will defend her Potions Master until she breathes her last. Unless of course, he's shown to be canonically evil. ;o) From bob.oliver at cox.net Sun Jun 26 18:05:09 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:05:09 -0000 Subject: OT: Incurable pedantry (Was: Emphasis on proper address...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131460 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" wrote: > > > Dungrollin: > > Trying and failing to fight down the impulse... gnawing off fingers > in attempt... stabbing compass into thigh... no... it's no good... > > Absolutely no offence meant, but there is NO SUCH WORD AS > IRREGARDLESS. You mean irrespective or regardless. > Sorry. I'll get me coat. > > Dung. Why, I ain't never! :-) Sorry, not scoffing at prescriptionist ideas of language -- just in their general direction. :-) SCENE AT THE PEARLY GATES: Alice knocks on the door. ST. PETER: Who is it? ALICE: It is I, Alice Teedlebaum. ST. PETER: Go away! I don't have any English teachers scheduled today! Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Sun Jun 26 18:13:41 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:13:41 -0000 Subject: Abusive Snape was: Emphasis on proper address In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131461 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prncssme" wrote > > Okay, I was just going to let this one go but I just want it on the record that I, in no way, > think abuse is EVER justified or defendable. But honestly, I just don't think Snape is all that > abusive. High handed, overly critical, biased toward his own house and deeply unhappy in > his current position but not abusive. > > I think this is why we will never agree on the respect of Snape issue. I still maintain that > however Snape treats Harry (which, imho, is not even NEAR the level of abuse shown by > the Dursleys), the man has saved his life on numerous occasions. I also believe that Snape > cannot treat Harry well without raising the suspicions of certain DE children in Slytherin > house. But when they are alone, a la the occlumency lessons, Snape shows remarkable > restraint and dare I say it, politeness until Harry crosses the line and looks into the > pensieve. I just keep thinking about Snape's almost sympathetic reaction to Harry's > memory of being chased up a tree by Aunt Marge's dog. It seems incongrous with a Snape > who will exploit any weakness to hurt Harry. > That's fair enough. :-) I think you are right that we are at the point where we always arrive with regard to Snape -- i.e. that some will regard him as worthy of respect barring dramatic revelations, and others such as I will never regard him as worthy of respect barring such dramatic information. We badly need more canon, but I doubt at this point it will help all that much. If Harry gets an O in potions many will regard Snape as being vindicated while others, such as I, will regard it as absolutely no vindication whatsoever. If Harry does relatively poorly (actually I think he'll probably get an "E" but I wouldn't bet a penny on it) I and others will (very hypocritically) regard ourselves as vindicated while others will argue that Harry's particular response to his teaching style does not in any way invalidate it. And a good time will be had by all. Lupinlore From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 26 18:19:15 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:19:15 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Social change in the WW References: <1119784555.905.8311.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001e01c57a7b$91033600$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 131462 alice_loves_cats (and so do I) wrote: > In many ways, the Wizarding World is old-fashioned, conservative, > something from past centuries. Maybe one reason for this is that > wizards and witches seem to live longer. Therefore it takes longer for > the older generation to "die off" and for the new generation to get > its voice heard. There's no direct canon to say that the WW is a gerontocracy (but none to say that it isn't, either...) but long lives (and the probable lack of anything like retirement pensions) could easily mean that wizarding folk would look to have working lives of perhaps 150-180 years (scary, no?) Someone in our own world of that age would certainly be way out of synch with the way the world is today, so it's fair to suggest that the WW would change far more slowly than our own. But on top of this, the WW is set up in a way which makes it far harder to change anyway. First of all, there's the Statute of Secrecy, and the fact that the Ministry are likely to take a dim view of anything that hasn't been completely Muggle proofed _before_ it's introduced. But more importantly, the WW is a bureaucracy with no distinction between the government and the administration. The only way of introducing change is by suitably bureaucratic bodies such as International Wizarding Congresses or the Wizenagemot. But any wizard who's interested in politics (such as Percy) does so by joining the bureaucracy. Therefore all of the "politically active" wizarding folk are already going to be members (or perhaps retired members) of the bureaucracy. Therefore congresses and committees will start off with a preponderance of bureaucrats among their members, making them less likely to introduce changes. Dumbledore is an exception, but note the pressure that he faced to become Minister when the post last fell vacant. Maybe literally the _only_ route for someone who wants dramatic social change in the WW is to go the Voldemort route and start a conspiracy. hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bob.oliver at cox.net Sun Jun 26 18:22:50 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:22:50 -0000 Subject: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131463 Okay, here's yet more grist for the "abusive Snape" mill. Would an "O" for Harry on the OWLS vindicate Snape's teaching methods? I hold that it would not. Abuse is never justified -- EVER. And behavior and teaching methods such as Snape's are never justified -- EVER. The effectiveness of them, if they are effective, is no defense or vindication whatsoever. Snape would still be absolutely in the wrong to employ such methods, and Dumbledore would still be absolutely in the wrong to allow them. Let the argument commence. Chuckle. Lupinlore P.S. For the record, I don't think Harry will get an "O" but I would not be shocked if he did (it's the easiest way for JKR to get him into Advanced Potions, after all, and there is plentiful precedent in fanfic). I actually think that the results we see in HBP will be murky and mixed. Hermione will get an "O" of course. Harry I suspect will get an "E," -- i.e. better than he thought but not up to "O" standards. I think Ron will probably do somewhat worse than Harry. Neville I think will pass, much to his surprise, but with a "low pass," -- although I would not be terribly surprised if he failed. Thus I suspect that picture will provide plentiful fuel for the arguments all around -- i.e. Harry will do better than he thought but probably not as well as he could, Hermione will get an "O" despite the teaching methods used, and Neville will still be evidence that Snape needs to be drug out and hanged. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 18:49:17 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:49:17 -0000 Subject: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131464 Lupinlore: > Okay, here's yet more grist for the "abusive Snape" mill. Would an > "O" for Harry on the OWLS vindicate Snape's teaching methods? > > I hold that it would not. > P.S. For the record, I don't think Harry will get an "O" but I would > not be shocked if he did (it's the easiest way for JKR to get him into > Advanced Potions, after all, and there is plentiful precedent in > fanfic). I actually think that the results we see in HBP will be > murky and mixed. > Thus I suspect that picture will provide plentiful fuel for the > arguments all around -- i.e. Harry will do better than he thought but > probably not as well as he could, Hermione will get an "O" despite the > teaching methods used, and Neville will still be evidence that Snape > needs to be drug out and hanged. Alla: Say, Harry indeed gets an "O" and I don't think that it is that implausible. After all, there must be a reason why JKR mentions that Harry knew theoretical part well, AND felt better without Snape breathing down his neck. Of course it would not justify anything to me in regards to how Snape treats Harry and Neville. If they got a decent grade, it would be despite Snape not because of him to me. Besides, if what they have to encounter in Snape class on day by day basis is the price for decent grade, I would say this price is too high. But having said all that, I AM looking forward to learning how Gryffindors did on their Potion Owls in general. If they passed OK, then at least it would answer a question for me whether Snape is a good teacher to other Gryffs or not, because his remark about high pass in his classes does not care much weight with me. JMO, Alla. From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Sun Jun 26 13:48:14 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Fitzov de Sullens) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:48:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Question: Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050626134814.84758.qmail@web86707.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131465 MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > Interesting - a dead felon as the Minister of Magic? tigerpatronus wrote: > However, the person who wrote that entry did include a longer > theory of Sirius in their later predictions, saying that he had > faked his own death and, let's face it, if he had faked his own > death, JKR couldn't let on, now could she? > > However, she does say something very interesting in this chat > (scroll down). Note that she doesn't answer the question about > seeing Sirius again (which means yes), does answer that we're > never seeing Regulus again because he's dead, and then doesn't > answer the question about the mirror (which means yes.) > > Interesting . . . Now Fitzov: Absolutely agree with you TigerPatronus. I think JKR has been very coy on the subject of whether Sirius is dead or not. As an ardent Sirius fan, it has continued to give me hope. For what it's worth, I also very much agree with the person who thought the clasped hands on the Bloomsbury book cover looked like Harry reaching out to pull Sirius back through the veil; whilst the ghostly boat reminds me of the ferry boat on the River Styx. The ring is also black, with some sort of pattern (possibly a column on it) and didn't Kreatcher try to rescue a golden ring bearing the Black family crest from Sirius during the 'cleaning' of 12 Grimmauld Place? Fitzov From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 20:37:22 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:37:22 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131466 >>Hickengruendler: >However, this also makes me doubt what Betsy said, that Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs have a more neutral relationship with the Slytherins than the others do. It seems that none of them trusted any Slytherin enough to tell them about the DA.< Betsy Hp: I think the only people who reached outside their house were Gryffindors. I believe that Hufflepuffs brought Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws brought Ravenclaws. Even before the hammer came down, I think everyone knew that the DA club was something to keep quiet about, so I think everyone played their cards incredibly close to their chest. I think it was an example of Gryffindor bravery and leadership (and Hermione's native cunning) that encouraged them to reach outside their house. I give the Gryffs props for doing so. But no Gryffindor knew any Slytherin to reach out to. And therein (IMO) lies the weakness. If someone *had* included a Slytherin, I'm betting Umbridge would have never caught Harry and friends coming out of the meeting. >>Betsy hp: << we know of at least one Slytherin who rejected the ideology enough to *marry* a muggle-born. >> >>Catlady: >Do you mean Tom Marvolo Riddle's mother? I don't think we know that she was in Slytherin House just because she was a descendent of Slytherin.< Betsy Hp: No. Sorry, I should have clarified. I'm talking about Andromeda Black who married Ted Tonks. If all Black's until Sirius were Slytherins, then Andromeda was a Slytherin and still managed to meet and marry a muggle-born wizard. Betsy Hp From prncssme at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 20:39:21 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:39:21 -0000 Subject: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131467 > Alla: > If they passed OK, then at least it would answer a question for me > whether Snape is a good teacher to other Gryffs or not, because his > remark about high pass in his classes does not care much weight with > me. > > JMO, > > Alla. Princess Sara: Hmmm, I'm not remembering what his comment was exactly about a high pass rate but I'm curious why it doesn't carry much weight. IMO, Snape is very much like Hermione when it comes to how much the students should know. Hermione reads and does homework well in advance of when she actually needs to know the material. Similarly, Snape wants students to be pretty advanced when it comes to the "core" material of his class. For canon example, see his stint as DADA teacher in book three. Therefore, I don't think it would be that far out of the realm of possibility for even poor Neville to do way better than expected on their potions OWL. Snape is quite possibly teaching at a higher level than would normally be expected of fifth year students. That being said, I really do think that most of Snape's behavior in the classroom is an effort to force his students to perform to his exacting standards. In a subject involving dangerous ingredients, open flames, and possibly deadly consequences for mistakes, his expectations make a fair bit of sense. Perhaps his methods are misquided (I personally don't subscribe to the "scare them into line" method of teaching, but I digress) but if it gets results and keeps his students safe, I can see why Dumbledore would let him continue. Which actually leads into my theory about why Dumbledore doesn't let Snape teach DADA. I think that Snape would continue to use the same methods in DADA that he employs in Potions but with far worse results. Because DADA is not nearly as dangerous as Potions (even in Barty!Moody's class, the kids weren't ever in real physical danger), there wouldn't be a place for the scare tactics or rigid control needed in Potions. In that situation, Snape's methods WOULD cross the line into abuse (you got me to admit it! ;o) ), a fact that Dumbledore is very much aware of. - Princess Sara From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 20:45:12 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:45:12 -0000 Subject: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131468 >>Lupinlore: >Okay, here's yet more grist for the "abusive Snape" mill. Would an "O" for Harry on the OWLS vindicate Snape's teaching methods? >I hold that it would not. Abuse is never justified -- EVER. And behavior and teaching methods such as Snape's are never justified -- EVER. The effectiveness of them, if they are effective, is no defense or vindication whatsoever. Snape would still be absolutely in the wrong to employ such methods, and Dumbledore would still be absolutely in the wrong to allow them.< Betsy Hp: Okay, I'll bite. But first I have to ask, what abusive methods? Making Harry call him sir? Demanding potions be done correctly? Disliking class disruptions? Throw some canon at me, because I seriously don't know what you're talking about when you say "abusive methods". And yes, if a teacher's students learn what the teacher is teaching I'll call that effective. Betsy Hp From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Jun 26 21:22:41 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:22:41 -0000 Subject: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131469 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > Betsy Hp: > Okay, I'll bite. But first I have to ask, what abusive methods? > Making Harry call him sir? Demanding potions be done correctly? > Disliking class disruptions? Throw some canon at me, because I > seriously don't know what you're talking about when you say "abusive > methods". > > And yes, if a teacher's students learn what the teacher is teaching > I'll call that effective. > > Betsy Hp Hickengruendler: The only part where I would call Snape abusive is the scene with Neville's toad. I find this mentally abusive towards Neville, even if Snape didn't really plan to poison Trevor (which I admit is possible). Even making Neville think that he would kill his beloved pet is clearly crossing the line, IMO. Here Snape's possible reason (making Neville learn Potions) does not justify his means, because they were way to harsh, IMO. I also wanted to mention the comment regarding Hermione's teeth, but it was not really abusive just mean. It does illustrate IMO, however, that at least some of Snape's mean methods/remarks can not simply be explained by trying to make the students learn Potions, because this remark does not fulfill any purpose except to humilitate Hermione. That proves that Snape does have a sadistic streak, and IMO that's the reason for most of his behaviour in the classroom as well. Sure he is frustrated that some students won't learn, either because they are not able to or because they don't want, but as a teacher it is his profession to deal with those problematic cases, and scaring the students is not the way to go. I do think he gets his class to learn and that the standard in the Potion-OWLS will be very high, there's no doubt he knows his subject, but I still think the methods he uses are wrong, no matter if you want to call them abusive or not. At least in Neville's case they are. He obviously blossoms at those teachers the most, who are nice and encourage him (Lupin and Harry, especially) instead of sneering at him and insulting him. Therefore if it Snape's aim to teach Neville Potions that way, he failed, since his mere presence is a handicap for Neville. By the way, I do not think that the fandom will ever agree in this point, not even after HBP. If Neville get's an OWL in Potions, which I think he will, there are two possible explanations, which both can be seen as accurate depending from which point you look at it. a.) Snape's teaching methods did have some success in the end, because Neville passed the OWL. Snape's lessons are hard, but so is life and Neville has to master this as well. The Potion OWLs are a step in the right direction. b.) It's a proof that Snape's teaching methods are not sucessfull, since Neville only is able to get it right, when Snape is not there. Therefore this could be seen as a reason that Snape is bad for Neville and holds him back, and Neville only is able to master Potions (and life) when Snape isn't there to undermine his self- confidence. Both reasonings obviously have some truth in them and it's impossible to disprove either one, but I won't deny that I will be in the second group. ;-) Hickengruendler From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Jun 26 21:31:42 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:31:42 -0000 Subject: Grey VS Good Slytherins Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131470 I'm jumping into the debate late because I've been at a gaming convention all weekend. My GF wanted to see what one was like so I took her. Thus I missed this very interesting debate despite having something to say. Imagine that ;) >From what I understand of the debate, a number of people seem to think that the 'good' slytherin is going to be more of a grey figure than an actual good one, but a character who is going to oppose Voldemort for various, mostly practical and slightly mercenary reasons. I don't think that is going to be true. I think that if we get a Slytherin on Harry's side of the conflict we are actually going to get a *good* Slytherin. We've seen the best and worst of every house in Hogwarts except for Slytherin. We've seen the courage of Harry, the cowardly Peter, and the hidebound Percy. We've seen the imaginative and confident Luna (open to everything and anything) arrayed against Cho and Marrieta--the pedestrian and the weak- willed. We've seen loyal and strong Cedric played against the stiffly formal Ernie and stubborn and obnoxious Zackarius Smith. We've seen the best and worst in every house and we've seen one of the most admirable young adults in the series come from a house that had been repeatedly disrespected by much of the school. But all we know of in Slytherin is Draco Malfoy and his cronies. I think that the houses are going to have to come together and I think in order to do that we are going to have to meet a truly good Slytherin. One that embodies slytherin traits, but uses those traits in a greater service than simple self-advancement. hat I think is needed is the Slytherin version of Cedric, Luna, or Harry. We need the best of slytherin. And the best of Slytherin *will* be better than grey. phoenixgod2000 And just for the record,no, I don't think that Snape represents the best of his house. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 21:47:51 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:47:51 -0000 Subject: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131471 > Hickengruendler: > > The only part where I would call Snape abusive is the scene with > Neville's toad. I find this mentally abusive towards Neville, even if > Snape didn't really plan to poison Trevor (which I admit is > possible). > I also wanted to mention the comment regarding Hermione's teeth, but > it was not really abusive just mean. It does illustrate IMO, however, > that at least some of Snape's mean methods/remarks can not simply be > explained by trying to make the students learn Potions, because this > remark does not fulfill any purpose except to humilitate Hermione. Alla: I agree with your picks of course, but I have plenty of others to choose from. I am not posting from home, so I will just reference this scene. How about the one when Harry comes running for help for Barty Sr. and meets dear Severus? I don't care if Snape knew that Dumbledore was coming from his office or not, as some posters argued in the past to defend Snape, I find what left his mouth to be mentally abusive to Harry. Here is a student who is nervous and upset , because he is trying to save a life and Snape mocks him and humiliates him instead of telling him that Dumbledore is coming or where to find Dumbledore. Yep, I think it was emotional abuse. Now, if one would argue that Snape has authority over Harry outside the classroom, because it is a boarding school, then I think it is a fair argument that Snape has to watch his mouth while they are on the school grounds and not in Potion classroom. It should work both ways, shouldn't it? Hickengruendler At least in Neville's case they > are. He obviously blossoms at those teachers the most, who are nice > and encourage him (Lupin and Harry, especially) instead of sneering > at him and insulting him. Therefore if it Snape's aim to teach > Neville Potions that way, he failed, since his mere presence is a > handicap for Neville. Alla: Absolutely. Don't forget about Professor Sprout's class, where Neville excells too. If indeed Snape wants to teach Neville something ( which I personally doubt), could he talk to other teachers? Couldn't he learn that his methods do not work for Neville? Oh, and great recap of "two possible explanations" for Neville's good grade. Needless to say I would be in the second group too. Just my opinion, Alla. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 22:11:13 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The good Slytherin - Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050626221113.65167.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131472 --- dumbledore11214 wrote: > >> Magda: >> >> The line is drawn where thought becomes action. Hate is not >> illegal (although I would argue that we have no proof that Slyths >> in general hate halfbloods and muggles, you're just assuming they >> do). > Alla: > > I am assuming based on Slytherins I met in the books so far. But you've just proved my point: JKR has carefully made sure we meet few Slyths aside from Draco and his entourage. If there are 250 kids per House (JKR's figures, roughly, not mine), then we've "met" only a fraction who've made an impression on Harry. > Alla: > > That was not a quote at all, that was paraphrasing. > > Here is the exact quote. > > "Why are some people in the wizarding world (e.g., Harry) > called 'half-blood' even though both their parents were magical? > > The expressions 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' have > been coined by people to whom these distinctions matter, and > express > their originators' prejudices. As far as somebody like Lucius > Malfoy > is concerned, for instance, a Muggle-born is as 'bad' as a Muggle. > Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of > his mother's grandparents. > > If you think this is far-fetched, look at some of the real charts > the Nazis used to show what constituted 'Aryan' or 'Jewish' blood. > I > saw one in the Holocaust Museum in Washington when I had already > devised the 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' > definitions, and was chilled to see that the Nazis used precisely > the same warped logic as the Death Eaters. A single Jewish > grandparent 'polluted' the blood, according to their propaganda." Well, as I read her quote, it refers to the pureblood extremisim of the Malfoys of the WW, not the pureblood families as a whole. >> Magda : >> You think he left it behind? Not at all; Sirius rejected their >> beliefs but he had a great deal of Black I-can-do-what-I-want >> attitude which led to his most egregious mistakes. > Alla: > > I would like to see more proof on Sirius being proud of being a > Black, if you don't mind. We have a proof that he was not proud of > his family ( namely him leaving his family behind and never looking > back). I don't see any proof to the contrary. Alla, Alla, Alla - please read my above comment again. I NEVER said he was PROUD of being a Black. I SAID that he retained a lot of the attitudes of the Black Family even though he rejected their beliefs. Attitudes such as his nasty harping on Snape's physical traits during the pensieve scene, his lack of appreciation of Kreacher's feelings (yes, I know Kreacher is about as much fun as a Dementor to be around but Sirius treated him as if he didn't matter at all and ignored Dumbledore's very prescient warning that Kreacher could be dangerous) and probably most obvious to me - his willingness to toss aside other concerns if they conflicted with what he wanted to do (attitude to the potential danger from Kreacher, attitude to Harry's fears for his safety). > > Alla: > Just wanted to add that it also very telling to me that the most > sympathetically portrayed "pureblood" family in the books so far > ( IMO anyway) is the one whom wisarding society > calls "bloodtraitors". I assume you mean the Weasleys. And "wizarding society" didn't call them bloodtraitors - one dead woman's portrait and one demented house elf did. And the only other person who comes close to the same expression is Lucius Malfoy, who is hardly all of wizarding society. I repeat my earlier claim: that we are misreading the series if we assume that the kind of pureblood extremism proclaimed by Lucius Malfoy is the same as pureblood pride that permeats a significant portion of the WW. Until Voldemort came along and put his megalomaniacal energy behind the effort, the sheer number of mixed marriages in the WW was eroding pureblood families anyway. Voldemort's brand of extremism caught a lot of people by surprise. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From labmystc at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 22:54:30 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:54:30 -0000 Subject: Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131473 Perhaps this has been discussed, I'm not sure. During my re-reads a question has popped into my mind. Why is Snape allowed to continue to get close to Death Eaters like Malfoy? Voldemort obviously knows that Snape has betrayed him and joined the Order. Luicius Malfoy more than likely knows that Snape is a traitor by now? How can he continue in his function as spy when everyone knows he has joined DD. Or am I missing something? Chris labmystc From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 23:07:32 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050626230732.11657.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131474 Chris wrote: Why is Snape allowed to continue to get close to Death Eaters like Malfoy? Voldemort obviously knows that Snape has betrayed him and joined the Order. Luicius Malfoy more than likely knows that Snape is a traitor by now? How can he continue in his function as spy when everyone knows he has joined DD. Or am I missing something? Juli: Why are you so sure that LV knows that Snape has joined the Order? 15 years ago when he disapeared, his DE (not all of them of course), when back to the WW saying they were under Imperio, or like Karkarov they made bargains. So why would it be so unlikely that Snape got a job at Hogwarts? For all these years Snape has been in Malfoy's good side, he's been his lapdog (as Sirius says), and I bet he vouched for Snape in front of LV. Who besides the members of the OoP knows that Snape is working with Dumbledore? I bet he went back to him, and just like the others he begged for forgiveness, and I guess he got it cause he's still alive. JMO, Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 23:13:44 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:13:44 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (mild TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131475 > Betsy Hp: > Ummm, well... yes. There's not really much to say about that. Tom > has really not done his house proud in the "seriously-not-evil" > clubs. Perhaps they should have engaged him in more group hugs? Or > included him in some of their evening sing alongs? > Neri: It looks like head boy Tom was a lead singer in the evening sing alongs, and the words probably went along the lines of "we cunning folks use any mean to achieve our ends" and "those whose ancestry is purest". Or at least, these are the official words that the Sorting Hat used, but within the warm and cozy safety of the Slytherin commons it probably went more along the lines of "so I bet it's a matter of time before a mudblood is killed this time I hope it's Granger". I imagine Tom felt very much at home. > Betsy Hp: > *Inventor* of pureblood mania?!? Honestly, where's the canon proof > of that? I mean, yes, Salazar apparently had some trust issues when > it came to those attached to the muggle world (probably had something > to do with the witches and wizards being persecuted by muggles at the > time) but I'm quite sure he wasn't the first wizard to *ever* > distrust outsiders. > > As to the basilisk, no one really knows *why* Salazar left the > basilisk behind. Oh sure, *Tom* had his theories, but are we really > expected to trust the word of a murderer? > Neri: Umm, I guess you have a perfectly reasonable and innocent reason why old Sally sneaked a XXXXX classified monster into a school? And the only people in history I know who depicted themselves in monumental statues and the like were tyrants, usually of the worst kind. The basilisk coming right out of the mouth doesn't help much in alleviating this impression. If old Salazar didn't *invent* the pureblood mania, then he is the one who made it ingrained into Hogwarts. And the whole mistrust argument doesn't really hold water, IMO. Wouldn't it be the Muggle-born wizards who were the most vulnerable to muggle persecution, not having magical teaching in how to control their magic and how to hide or protect themselves? Salazar was apparently ready to let them burn because they weren't pure enough. > Betsy Hp: > I don't deny that Riddle has cast a long shadow over Slytherin, and > unfortunately many feel he's reshaped the house into his own image. > However, there have been glimmers that his shadow is not as over- > reaching as the Gryffindor propaganda has suggested. > Neri: Are Draco's own words above Gryffindor propaganda? Well, I guess they are if you count JKR as a Gryffindor (which of course she is, which means the whole HP saga is Gryffindor propaganda). We have a pretty good canon picture of house Slytherin in the "Riddle's shadow" era, and we have a pretty good picture of the house founder. Now, if *between* Salazar and Tom the house was actually quite nice, well, I suspect you might have a problem finding canon for that, but if you do then I'll just have to modify my claim to the slightly less catchy "the house of Slytherin *in the period of Voldemort* is Evil, Evil, Evil". > Betsy Hp: > I'm not really sure why sucking up to the powers that be gets defined > as evil. Neri: It doesn't. That's why those who merely sucked up only get a P . But as the house statistics show, they are a minority. And unfortunately they're also a minority that enthusiastically takes orders from those who do worse than just suck up to power. > Betsy Hp: > Now you're just grasping at straws. A P for being the son of a DE? > (Talk about blood prejudice.) Neri: In the HP saga, if you're half giant or a werewolf or the son of Dark wizards or whatever, you are supposed to show in some way that you aren't bound by your unfortunate ancestry. If Theo had done the smallest thing to indicate that he doesn't like his ancestry, I would have gladly given him a T. Until now he hadn't, so I gave him a P. If you insist on a T it would still hardly change the picture of the whole house. > Betsy Hp: I am glad you saw fit to only give > Marcus a D. He's not the greatest guy in the world, but as of yet, I > wouldn't classify him as evil. > Neri: Again, Flint's slight offenses should be viewed in the context of his house norm. The guy enthusiastically took part in this "any mean to achieve our ends" consensus. He's just the material to become a nice little Voldemort's supporter outside Hogwarts, if not a DE. In fact, Voldy seems to be in great need of new recruits, and given JKR's tendency for constructive recycling I won't be surprised if Marcus Flint will surface in the next books as a minor Voldemort's servant. > Betsy Hp: > > Since I classify Snape and Nigellus as "good Slytherins" in their own > right, I'm not sure why they're even included on this list. They > offer proof that Slytherin is *not* evil. Neri: As you've probably realized by now, they were included so I won't be accused of skewing the statistics by taking the good Slytherins out of it. Since they're so few, they don't really prove that Slytherin house is not evil. They only prove that some good people may be found even in an evil establishment. > > Betsy Hp: > I question your statistics. You're basing the outlook of an entire > house with a history that goes back hundreds of years on a mere > handful of alumni. Neri: We haven't been given any data regarding all these hundreds of years. So let's limit the discussion to present day (and the last 30 years) Slytherin House. > Betsy Hp: > I would also argue that the powers that be (aka > JKR), fond as she is of red herrings and big-bangs, has done her best > to skew the image of Slytherin. Judgement should wait, in my > opinion, until *all* evidence is in. > Neri: Contrary to some opinions, JKR is *not* all-powerful. She can't completely overturn a wide and detailed picture she's been painting for five books, or she'll lose her credibility as an author. She *can* reveal that a single bad person is actually good, or that a single good person is actually evil. She *can* introduce additional "good Slytherins" just to make a point about prejudice or school unity or second chances. But changing the whole role that Slytherin house, with its dogma and values, has been playing in the series would be lousy writing. But perhaps the worst news for the House-Slytherin-Isn't-Evil fans are that JKR (like Voldemort) is now in dire need of evil recruits. She's writing a series about a war, and this war is now starting to really gather momentum. The good guys must have somebody to fight. JKR requires enemies, and they have to be numerous and convincing and Evil, and to have a proper background in the previous books. Hordes of dementors and Giants can help, but they won't be enough. JKR has been showing us that the roots of evil start at home and at school, and that evil is created by people and their values, not by demons and monsters. Surely this is what Slytherin house was invented for? So we can have a pureblood mania and school rivalry and evil enemies and a convincing war. And if that doesn't seem fair, well that's fiction. Invented characters don't get human rights. Neri From labmystc at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 23:30:01 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:30:01 -0000 Subject: Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: <20050626230732.11657.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131476 > Juli: > > Why are you so sure that LV knows that Snape has > joined the Order? 15 years ago when he disapeared, his > DE (not all of them of course), when back to the WW > saying they were under Imperio, or like Karkarov they > made bargains. So why would it be so unlikely that > Snape got a job at Hogwarts? For all these years Snape > has been in Malfoy's good side, he's been his lapdog > (as Sirius says), and I bet he vouched for Snape in > front of LV. Who besides the members of the OoP knows > that Snape is working with Dumbledore? > I bet he went back to him, and just like the others he > begged for forgiveness, and I guess he got it cause > he's still alive. > > JMO, > > Juli > Aol: jlnbtr > Yahoo: jlnbtr > MSN: julibotero at m... > Chris: I'm not sure that LV knows that Snape joined the Order. However, in GoF, LV is walking around surveying the DEs that returned to him when summoned. When he comes to the gap in the circle, he says: "And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service." Scholastic U.S. PB, p. 651 Now obviously the DEs know the dead ones whom LV is referring to. Karkaroff is the cowardly one, Barty JR. the loyal one, that leaves Snape. This scene doesn't look to me as if LV is trying to put on a show for Harry or the others. He genuinely believes Snape is gone from his service, and will be killed as punishment. Lucius Malfoy is among the DEs present, so how can he act like normal in the presence of Snape? It would seem Lucius would be the closest to him, could kill him easily, and return to LV with news of his death and regain his master's favor. Now if Snape is a double agent, which he very well could be (though I doubt it) then the above scene makes no sense. Like I stated, I think LV was genuinely angry, not just putting on a show. Chris labmystc From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 23:37:31 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050626233731.23272.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131477 > > Chris: > Now obviously the DEs know the dead ones whom LV > is referring to. > Karkaroff is the cowardly one, Barty JR. the loyal > one, that leaves > Snape. Juli: Actually I always thought that "The one who has left me forever, he'll die" is Karkaroff, "The Coward who'll pay" is Severus, and I agree that Barty of course is the loyal one. If Lucius told LV that Snape was a teacher in Hogwarts (and trying to get Harry kicked out), then he must have known that "no-one can disapear from Hogwarts", then of course he couldn't arrive at the Graveyard on time, then after DD told him what to do he could have left Hogwarts and then show himself to LV. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 23:48:25 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:48:25 -0000 Subject: Grey VS Good Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > ...edited... > > From what I understand of the debate, a number of people seem to > think that the 'good' slytherin is going to be more of a grey figure > than an actual good one, but a character who is going to oppose > Voldemort for various, mostly practical and slightly mercenary > reasons. I don't think that is going to be true. > > ...edited... > > And the best of Slytherin *will* be better than grey. > > phoenixgod2000 bboyminn: "Good" is such a broad word, that it makes discussion of it difficult. I am a big supporter of the existance of one or more Good Slytherins, so keep that in mind as you read my 'grey' position. To some extent, my 'grey' position was intended to counter the often leap to conclusion that either all Slytherins are the hell-spawned sons of satan or that any 'Good Slytherin' will certainly be a flowers and bunnies, hugs and kisses, Mary Poppins clone. This is best illustrated in 'Redeemed Draco', there are those, who for whatever reason (too much Harry/Draco Slash most likely), think that if Draco rejects Voldemort and the Death Eaters, he will instantly become one of the 'flowers and bunnies' crowd, and that certainly, he and Harry will be such great friends that they will suddenly be snogging in the broom closet. No, no, no... to all these things. What I am saying is that many of the Slytherins are just normal kids with the same good and bad that we find in all normal kids. True, they do have their unique Slytherin ambitions, but that's not a bad thing. Further, we don't see them because they mind their own business and keep their heads down. The fact that they laugh at Draco's jokes, the jokes at Harry/Ron/Hermione's expense, doesn't tell me they are evil, nor does it tell me they support Draco, it tells me that they are normal kids. Further, the uniting of the Houses should not reasonably be interpreted as being united down to the last man and woman; a nother assumption that many people leap to. Even if only a small percent of Slytherins reject Draco and Voldemort, that still represents the four Houses coming together in a common cause. These 'good' Slytherins will be against Voldemort, against the Death Eaters, and against Draco. Their key positive points won't be the standard ambition and cunning, though certainly that will be there, it will be intelligence, a clear head, and a free-thinking independance. Because of this, they will cooperate with the Good Guys and act against the bad guys. In all likelihood, those Slytherins and the other Houses will develop mutual respect for each other. Each side will consider the other side 'good' but with a small 'g'. They will eventually learn to trust and appreciate each other. Each will develop a greater understanding of the other person as an individual and as a representative of their house. To all these, YES; but don't look for any skipping through the garden hand-in-hand, or snogging in the closets. My goal is not to set a perfect shade of grey, it's to rein in the extremes on the issue of The Good Slytherin. I see Good Slytherins in a /very positive/ light, but again, that doesn't mean hugs and kisses all around. So, strange as it may sound after all I've said, I do agree that Good Slytherins will be more than a bland shade of grey, but they certainly will not be the universally hopeless evil or gushingly friendly extremes that some have implied. Once again, just trying to bring some perspective to the subject in general. Steve/bboyminn From labmystc at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 23:50:39 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:50:39 -0000 Subject: Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: <20050626233731.23272.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131479 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > > > > Chris: > > Now obviously the DEs know the dead ones whom LV > > is referring to. > > Karkaroff is the cowardly one, Barty JR. the loyal > > one, that leaves > > Snape. > > Juli: Actually I always thought that "The one who has > left me forever, he'll die" is Karkaroff, "The Coward > who'll pay" is Severus, and I agree that Barty of > course is the loyal one. Chris: In GoF (same edition as previously stated) during the hospital scene, Fudge is having a hard time believing LV is back. This is from p. 710 Snape speaking: "...This Mark has been growing clearer all year. Karkaroff's too. Why do you think Karkaroff fled tonight? We both felt the Mark burn. We both knew he had returned. Karkaroff fears the Dark Lord's vengeance. He betrayed too many of his fellow Death Eatersto be sure of a welcome back into the fold" Once LV touched the mark, Karkaroff fled into the forest and hasn't been seen since. This to me is the description of a coward, too scared to return. I think Karkaroff was LV's reference to a coward who will be punished. >Juli: > If Lucius told LV that Snape was a teacher in Hogwarts > (and trying to get Harry kicked out), then he must > have known that "no-one can disapear from Hogwarts", > then of course he couldn't arrive at the Graveyard on > time, then after DD told him what to do he could have > left Hogwarts and then show himself to LV. > I don't think LV would fall for this excuse. "I'm at Hogwarts...gimme a sec and I'll be right there." Besides, I think the information LV has on the Death Eaters is what he has gleaned from speaking to Pettigrew, Bertha's memories, Crouch Jr., and Crouch Sr. LV does not see or speak to any DEs until they apparate into the graveyard. So obviously he learned of Snape and Karkaroff from one of these sources. Chris labmystc From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 00:36:17 2005 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Kathy) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:36:17 -0000 Subject: HP Prediction Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131480 Compulsory Questions: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Vernon Dursley. Also, one of the Creevey brothers will die, probably Dennis. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Hagrid. JKR said that COS held a key regarding this question. My question is: Why did Riddle want to get rid of Hagrid ? just because he wasn't a `pure-blood'? I don't think so. There's more to this than we know. I think Hagrid's mother was the Queen of the Giants. 3. What is Lily's big secret? Lily knew about Lupin and had been helping him. It was thru this effort that she finally understood what James and his friends had gone thru to `protect' Lupin. Her heart softened, and let James in. The big secret is that Lupin really cared deeply for Lily ? and though she cared for him just as much, it wasn't `that' kind of love to her. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? So far it has always been a new character, being introduced for the first time. I don't think this formula will change. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood. The ending of OOP gave us a clue that he sees her through different eyes. Perhaps by the end of HBP we'll start seeing Harry look at Ginny differently as well. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Dolores Jane Umbridge, who had previously been the undersecretary to the Minister. To keep the drama going, there has to be someone inept in this position. Hem, Hem, that said, Dolores would be the perfect person for the job. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It's definitely a pensive, but it doesn't look like Professor Dumbledore's. His was never described as cracked. Obviously, it will be pivotal to the plot, though. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Definitely. Without Snape's constant interruptions, Harry did well on his O.W.L.s 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? He has no interest in continuing with potions. If he does continue, it will be due to a relationship between Herbology and potions. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Nine. Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Professor Dumbledore and Professor McGonagall are husband and wife. 2. It will be discovered that Kreacher had placed a potion in the food/drink Sirius ate/drank, one that would make him very reckless. It built up over a period of time, to the point that instead of protecting himself in the fight in the Dept. of Mysteries, that he actually thought he was infallible. 3. Whether it will come out in HBP or in Book 7, Snape was actually fostering Harry's inability to keep Voldemort out of his head. Not just because he got a kick out of it, but also because he needed to keep the dark lord thinking that he was on his side. 4. Harry and Ginny will get together, but probably not till Book 7. 5. Dobby will play an important role in the last book. 6. Barty Crouch, Jr. is alive and well, and should be in HBP, although still using Polyjuice potion to further Voldemort's aims. KathyO From johnk at gwu.edu Sun Jun 26 21:48:42 2005 From: johnk at gwu.edu (John Kearns) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:48:42 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy Hp: > Okay, I'll bite. But first I have to ask, what abusive methods? > Making Harry call him sir? Demanding potions be done correctly? > Disliking class disruptions? Throw some canon at me, because I > seriously don't know what you're talking about when you say "abusive > methods". All references are Scholastic first-edition hardcover. CoS p193: "'A bad idea, Professor Lockhart.... Longbottom causes devastation with the simplest spells. We'll be sending what's left of Finch- Fletchley up to the hospital wing in a matchbox.' Neville's round, pink face went pinker." PoA p125: "'Orange, Longbottom.... Tell me, boy, does anything penetrate that thick skull of yours?' ... 'Please, sir,' said Hermione, 'please, I could help Neville put it right-' 'I don't remember asking you to show off, Miss Granger,' said Snape coldly, and Hermione went as pink as Neville. 'Longbottom, at the end of this lesson we will feed a few drops of this potion to your toad and see what happens. Perhaps that will encourage you to do it properly.'" PoA p132: "'Possibly no one's warned you, Lupin, but this class contains Neville Longbottom. I would advise you not to entrust him with anything difficult. Not unless Miss Granger is hissing instructions in his ear.'" PoA p172: "'Miss Granger... five more points from Gryffindor for being an insufferable know-it-all.'" GoF p299: "(Ron) forced Hermione to show Snape her teeth - she was doing her best to hide them with her hands, though this was difficult as they had now grown down past her collar.... Snape looked coldly at Hermione, then said, 'I see no difference.'" GoF p515, after reading an embarassing article aloud to the class: "'All this press attention seems to have inflated your already over- large head, Potter,' said Snape quietly, once the rest of the class had settled down again.... 'You might be laboring under the delusion that the entire wizarding world is impressed with you... but I don't care how many times your picture appears in the papers. To me, Potter, you are nothing but a nasty little boy who considers rules to be beneath him.'" GoF p517: "'Do you know what this is, Potter?... It is Veritaserum - a Truth Potion so powerful that three drops would have you spilling your innermost secrets for this entire class to hear,' said Snape viciously. 'Now, the use of this potion is controlled by very strict Ministry guidelines. But unless you watch your step, you might just find that my hand slips... right over your evening pumpkin juice.'" OotP p661: "(Harry) had just turned away when he heard a smashing noise.... His potion sample lay in pieces on the floor, and Shape was surveying him with a look of gloating pleasure. 'Whoops,' he said softly. 'Another zero, then, Potter....'" John K now: I chose the examples above (from many more like them) because these are all instances either of Snape acting unprovoked (i.e. not in response to anything specific) or blantantly overreacting to a situation. Furthermore, they are all verbatum, and hence not subject to the influence of Harry's perceptions (as are his facial expressions, etc.) Perhaps when you wonder about abusive methods you are thinking of physical abuse, which of course Snape does not use. However, psychological and emotional abuse is just as serious. I am a high school teacher and I can tell you that no matter what a student may say or do to me, it is illegal for me to resort to name-calling or personal insults. If a student tries to leave the room, it is illegal for me to stand in his way. It is illegal for me to touch a student for any reason except physical protection of another student, even if I am being physically assaulted myself. The lines are drawn so that, no matter what, teachers can never abuse students in any way. Many of the tactics Snape uses (particularly threats and deliberate destruction of grades) would be sufficient to lose a modern teacher his job, even with just a single occurance. Some would - and should - lead to prosecution. What's more, it seems very, very improbable that even a single one of these instances is taken out of context or through a skewed perception. In other words all of these actions are, on Snape's part, very conscious and deliberate - not something he let slip while meaning to say something else. This makes them even worse. He really is a horrible person who has no business being around children. I suppose Dumbledore has his reasons. John K From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Mon Jun 27 01:30:57 2005 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:30:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will Ginny be a prefect? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06fbc76d5f31d4ec936baba42b035a16@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131482 > > Amie: > > I'm pretty sure she'll be made a prefect. If for no other reason than > we don't really know any other Griffindor's in her year. I'm not sure about becoming a prefect nest year, but I think Ginny might become Griffindor's new Quidditch captain. She's not too young, after all Wood was team captain in his fifth year. Unlike Ron, Ginny seems to be a natural athlete too. Can you imagine the mess if she has to tell Ron that he's been replaced by a better player? I think JKR has hinted (somewhere?) that Ron may have trouble making the team next year, so this speculation seems to fit the hint. Barbara Roberts (Ivogun) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 01:43:36 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:43:36 -0000 Subject: Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > Perhaps this has been discussed, I'm not sure. During my re-reads a > question has popped into my mind. Why is Snape allowed to continue to > get close to Death Eaters like Malfoy? Voldemort obviously knows that > Snape has betrayed him and joined the Order. Luicius Malfoy more than > likely knows that Snape is a traitor by now? How can he continue in > his function as spy when everyone knows he has joined DD. Or am I > missing something? My guess is that Snape is not so much a spy as a spymaster, that is, that he uses his inside knowledge of the Death Eaters to garner information. Perhaps he is "running" other DE's who want a ticket out. Given the very public manner in which he was outed as Dumbledore's spy, I can't see him reporting as himself to Voldemort. Maybe he's got the elder Crabbe in a trunk, and Polyjuices himself to look like him when he attends a meeting. Amiable Dorsai From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Jun 27 01:52:51 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:52:51 -0000 Subject: Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131484 > > Juli: Actually I always thought that "The one who has > > left me forever, he'll die" is Karkaroff, "The Coward > > who'll pay" is Severus, and I agree that Barty of > > course is the loyal one. > > Chris: In GoF ... p. 710 Snape: "...This Mark has been growing > clearer all year. Karkaroff's too. Why do you think Karkaroff fled > tonight? We both felt the Mark burn. We both knew he had returned. > Karkaroff fears the Dark Lord's vengeance. He betrayed too many of > his fellow Death Eatersto be sure of a welcome back into the fold" > > Once LV touched the mark, Karkaroff fled ... > This to me is the description of a coward, too > scared to return. I think Karkaroff was LV's reference to a coward > who will be punished. > > >Juli: > > If Lucius told LV that Snape was a teacher in Hogwarts > > (and trying to get Harry kicked out), then he must > > have known that "no-one can disapear from Hogwarts", > > then of course he couldn't arrive at the Graveyard on > > time, then after DD told him what to do he could have > > left Hogwarts and then show himself to LV. > > > > I don't think LV would fall for this excuse. "I'm at > Hogwarts...gimme a sec and I'll be right there." Besides, I think the > information LV has on the Death Eaters is what he has gleaned from > speaking to Pettigrew, Bertha's memories, Crouch Jr., and Crouch Sr. > LV does not see or speak to any DEs until they apparate into the > graveyard. So obviously he learned of Snape and Karkaroff from one of > these sources. > > Chris > labmystc aussie: Once Snape visited LV, he would have been full of his (Snape's) version of what happened to Couch Jr after Harry got back to Hogwarts. It would have been things that LV didn't know about till Snape reported. Retuning with this ground breaking news would have helped Snape's standing with LV. He wouldn't have told them everything as it happened. But his version would have to explain reports from students still outside at the Quidditch field when Snape went with DD to see "Moody" and took time in the hospital. He probably wasn't aware of LV plan with "Moody" so could say he continued "pretending" to support DD to stay close to LV's enemy until it was too late to save Couch Jr. He then stayed for long enough to work out how Harry escaped again, and DD and Fudge's plans after Harry reported to them. This may have appeased LV enough to allow Snape to remain ... although he may have been punished with a Cruciatus Curse to ensure his loyalty. aussie / Hagrid From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 01:58:11 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:58:11 -0000 Subject: OT: Incurable pedantry (Was: Emphasis on proper address...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: > > > Dung: > > > Absolutely no offence meant, but there is NO SUCH WORD AS > > > IRREGARDLESS. You mean irrespective or regardless. > > > Sorry. I'll get me coat. > > > > Amiable Dorsai: > > Sure there is: it's right here in my "Webster's New International > > Dictionary" (2nd ed.)--right between "irrefutability" and > > "irregeneracy". Webster doesn't seem to care for it much, but > > there it is. > > > > Of course, you have an unalienable right to your opinion. > > Ah, a descriptivist, prescripivist debate. > "[A] The word is thoroughly and consistently condemned in all > American references I can find. But it's also surprisingly common. > It's formed from regardless by adding the negative prefix ir-; as > regardless is already negative, the word is considered a logical > absurdity. I tend toward the prescriptivist viewpoint myself. I mostly wanted to make the "unalienable right" joke (which is probably only funny to an American, and not all of us). I don't care for "irregardless", either. But it's way too late in the day to demand consistent logic from English. Amiable Dorsai From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 01:58:34 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:58:34 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin - Shades of Grey/ Sirius and his family / In-Reply-To: <20050626221113.65167.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131486 Alla earlier: > > > > I am assuming based on Slytherins I met in the books so far. > Magda: > But you've just proved my point: JKR has carefully made sure we meet > few Slyths aside from Draco and his entourage. If there are 250 kids > per House (JKR's figures, roughly, not mine), then we've "met" only a > fraction who've made an impression on Harry. Alla: You can be right, OR there is another possibility that we are not going to meet any Slytherins who think differently than this fraction does. Even better, what if we are not going to meet ANY new Slytherins at all? Are we supposed to think that Slytherin house is not all Evil simply because there is a possibility that we have not met some of its members yet? Magda: > Alla, Alla, Alla - please read my above comment again. I NEVER said > he was PROUD of being a Black. I SAID that he retained a lot of the > attitudes of the Black Family even though he rejected their beliefs. > Attitudes such as his nasty harping on Snape's physical traits during > the pensieve scene, his lack of appreciation of Kreacher's feelings > and probably most obvious to me - his willingness to toss aside other > concerns if they conflicted with what he wanted to do (attitude to > the potential danger from Kreacher, attitude to Harry's fears for his > safety). Alla: Well, actually I see no proof that any of those attitudes ARE Blacks family attitudes. Unless you can show me that any other member of Black family disliked Snape of course. I speculate that if Snape is indeed a pureblood and fancied Dark Arts , then Blacks would love him . Do I even have to address Kreacher here? Sirius' dislike of Kreacher shows that he did not treat him as his family did ( Kreacher loved Sirius' parents, didn't he?) So, it seems to me that those attitudes of Sirius ( whether you agree with them or not) were just those - HIS and do not prove (to me at least) that he retained his family attitudes. > Neri: > > If old Salazar didn't *invent* the pureblood mania, then he is the one > who made it ingrained into Hogwarts. And the whole mistrust argument > doesn't really hold water, IMO. Wouldn't it be the Muggle-born wizards > who were the most vulnerable to muggle persecution, not having magical > teaching in how to control their magic and how to hide or protect > themselves? Salazar was apparently ready to let them burn because they > weren't pure enough. Alla: Yes, yes, Neri, absolutely. I raised the very same argument in one of the older rounds of Good Slytherin/Bad Slytherin debate. The most benefit of the doubt I am willing to give Salasar is some kind of personal tragedy ( you know, loved one burned or something like that) after which he started "only purebloods" are deserved to be taught in Hogwarts "song". I am willing to come up with some excuse NOT for Salasar's ideas, because I don't find them to be very excusable, but with the reason why he , IMO went crazy. I am willing to entertain such thought simply because of initial friendship between founders. I mean the other founders must have liked something in him, if they were willing to be friends with him? But again, it may not mean anything. The fact that one is friend with the good people may not stop such person from becoming Evil. And so far, in my book Salazar's ideas are evil. Let's also not forget that Salazar wanted all Hogwarts to be closed for muggleborns witches and wizards, not just his house. And as you absolutely correctly stated , IMO, he did not want to educate fellow wizards and witches, NOT outsiders. He did not want to educate those most vulnerable to the persecution. Bad Salazar, very bad Salazar. :-) Just my opinion, Alla. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 02:16:29 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:16:29 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (mild TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131487 >>Neri: >It looks like head boy Tom was a lead singer in the evening sing alongs, and the words probably went along the lines of "we cunning folks use any mean to achieve our ends" and "those whose ancestry is purest".< Betsy Hp: Well, let's stop mucking about in speculation about what young Tom sang (I expect it was whatever folks wanted to hear at that point of his life) and turn to Hogwart's official singer, the Sorting Hat. "Or perhaps in Slytherin You'll make your real friends, Those cunning folks use any means To achieve their ends." (SS scholastic paperback p.118) (Harry misses the sorting in CoS and PoA.) "Shrewd Slytherin from fen." [...] "And power-hungry Slytherin Loved those of great ambition." (GoF scholastic hardback p.177) "Said Slytherin, 'We'll teach just those Whose ancestry is purest.'" [...] "For instance, Slytherin Took only pure-blood wizards Of great cunning, just like him," (OotP scholastic hardback p.205) So Slytherins should be cunning, ends over means thinkers, filled with ambition and pure of blood. Though, since we do know Slytherin has taken students who aren't pure-bloods (Tom, almost Harry, the Weasley who wasn't) I'll say Slytherin wants those who've got strong ties and/or loyalties to the WW. So, certainly not the fluffy bunny house. But though those traits are formidable and could lead to horrible consequences if used for evil, they're not evil traits in and of themselves. >>Neri: >Or at least, these are the official words that the Sorting Hat used, but within the warm and cozy safety of the Slytherin commons it probably went more along the lines of "so I bet it's a matter of time before a mudblood is killed this time I hope it's Granger".< Betsy Hp: Ah, the old, "let's hold Draco Malfoy to a higher standard than Harry" argument. Harry has day-dreamed about putting a teacher he disliked under a Cruciatus curse and bashing his head in with a cauldron. In fact, Harry actually threw a cruciatus at someone. So if we're expected to look at twelve year old Draco's idle day-dreams about the girl he hates getting conveniently killed as an example of evil, then I expect our next to discussion to be about what a horrid little boy Harry has turned out to be. >>Neri: >Umm, I guess you have a perfectly reasonable and innocent reason why old Sally sneaked a XXXXX classified monster into a school?< Betsy Hp: Protection? The Sorting Hat did say that the discord that crept amongst the founders fed on their "faults and fears". It seems fairly obvious to me, since the school was specifically built in a remote location to get away from muggle persecution, that Salazar did not trust those with muggle connections. The fault and fear that would build inside of Salazar, I think, must have been his muggle paranoia. If the other founders didn't share his fears and he felt he had to leave, wouldn't it make sense for him to leave behind a creature that might help protect them from their own folly? Or maybe there's something else hidden in Salazar's chamber, and the Basalisk was only supposed to serve as a guardian. After all, the basilisk was locked up rather securely. Remember, the founders *liked* Salazar, quite a bit. They liked him after he created Slytherin house and laid out his vision of the perfect Hogwarts student. And they liked him well enough after he left that they were sad to have lost him. They did keep his house at Hogwarts, after all. He can't have been *that* bad. >>Neri: >And the only people in history I know who depicted themselves in monumental statues and the like were tyrants, usually of the worst kind. The basilisk coming right out of the mouth doesn't help much in alleviating this impression.< Betsy Hp: Did those tyrants tuck those statues away in the basement, locked away from human view? Maybe there's something *inside* the statue, and the mouth is how to gain entrance. Harry wasn't able to stick around and go exploring once the snake was dead, so maybe there's more to discover. I also think the snake coming out of Salazar's mouth signals the parsel tongue connection. >>Neri: >If old Salazar didn't *invent* the pureblood mania, then he is the one who made it ingrained into Hogwarts.< Betsy Hp: I thought that was Voldemort? >>Neri: >And the whole mistrust argument doesn't really hold water, IMO. Wouldn't it be the Muggle-born wizards who were the most vulnerable to muggle persecution, not having magical teaching in how to control their magic and how to hide or protect themselves?< Betsy Hp: Actually, *children* were the most vulnerable. And if your town is under attack, do you get your children to safety first, or leave them to fend for themselves while you rescue some kids living further out? In times of trouble the circle you draw around those you consider yours becomes smaller. Yes, muggle-born wizards were in more danger than pure-bloods. But muggle-born wizards also had the strongest ties to muggles. They had their feet in two different worlds and therefore were more likely to become traitors. >>Neri: >Salazar was apparently ready to let them burn because they weren't pure enough.< Betsy Hp: They weren't *trustworthy* enough is how I'd see it. >>Neri: >Are Draco's own words above Gryffindor propaganda?< Betsy Hp: As I've said, many times before, Draco is spouting his *father's* philosophy. We have absolutely no canon to tell us if this is what all Slytherins believe. >>Neri: >Well, I guess they are if you count JKR as a Gryffindor (which of course she is, which means the whole HP saga is Gryffindor propaganda).< Betsy Hp: I think that JKR definitely sees the Gryffindor traits as better for leadership, etc. I don't think she sees Slytherin as evil. Actually, I think JKR's treatment of Slytherin has been very... Slytherin. She's been very cunning in showing us very little of that house and allowing folks to come to their own conclusions. I think Slytherin, much like Snape, is one of her favorite red herrings. (So far Harry has been betrayed by a Gryffindor and a Ravenclaw.) >>Neri: >We have a pretty good canon picture of house Slytherin in the "Riddle's shadow" era, and we have a pretty good picture of the house founder. Now, if *between* Salazar and Tom the house was actually quite nice, well, I suspect you might have a problem finding canon for that, but if you do then I'll just have to modify my claim to the slightly less catchy "the house of Slytherin *in the period of Voldemort* is Evil, Evil, Evil".< Betsy Hp: Let's review our canon knowledge of Salazar. We know Salazar comes from a swampy area of England, and IIRC those from swamps and marshes are often painted as sneaky and cunning in fairy-tales and the like. We know he was, power-hungry, shrewd and a pure-blood. We also know he was very good friends with the other founders, especially Gryffindor, and we know that he left the school when the fighting between the four reached its height. We know that when Salazar did leave, the other three founders were sad to have lost him. And we know that they kept his house intact. Why didn't the founders destroy Slytherin? If Salazar was so evil, why'd they leave his house in their school? Maybe Salazar *wasn't* all that evil in the first place. Maybe his cunning and shrewdness served the founders well and they realized that Hogwarts would be weaker without some of his philosophies balancing out their own. As to Voldemort, we know that when he was at the height of his power his Death Eaters outnumbered the Order members *twenty* to one. Are you seriously implying that Slytherin was *that* much larger a house than the three others combined? We also know that at least one Slytherin family (the Blacks) disapproved of Voldemort's methods and lost a child to him. And we know that one of Voldemort's top spies was a Gryffindor. We also know that when Lucius Malfoy joined up with Voldemort he brought his people along. That they were all Slytherin is hardly surprising. But were they *all* of the Slytherins? And were all the Death Eaters Slytherin? We know that those Death Eaters who managed to slink away when Voldemort fell were, for the most part, Slytherin. But they were also all, IIRC, Lucius's people. Again, our information is dodgy, so I think sweeping generalizations are not safe to make. >>Neri: >Contrary to some opinions, JKR is *not* all-powerful. She can't completely overturn a wide and detailed picture she's been painting for five books, or she'll lose her credibility as an author. She *can* reveal that a single bad person is actually good, or that a single good person is actually evil. She *can* introduce additional "good Slytherins" just to make a point about prejudice or school unity or second chances. But changing the whole role that Slytherin house, with its dogma and values, has been playing in the series would be lousy writing.< Betsy Hp: More lousy than carefully painting a nuanced world where affiliations and family lines don't automatically funnel a character into a good or evil camp and then suddenly throwing in the biggest black hat since the Lone Ranger appeared on the silver screen? Worse than that? So you're seriously saying that if JKR *doesn't* show us that Slytherin is a house dedicated to future tyrants and psychopaths then suddenly it'll be a bad series to you? That just doesn't make any kind of sense to me. Usually I prefer my stories with a bit of a third demension thrown in there and some shades of gray. Which is why I was drawn into this particular series. But if you'd prefer for Dumbledore to suddenly turn into the world's biggest idiot, for the founders to all turn out to be insane child abusers, for the moral of the story to be "Prejudice is *great* kids!", then I'm hoping you end up thinking JKR did herself some *really* lousy writing. >>Neri: >But perhaps the worst news for the House-Slytherin-Isn't-Evil fans are that JKR (like Voldemort) is now in dire need of evil recruits. She's writing a series about a war, and this war is now starting to really gather momentum. The good guys must have somebody to fight. JKR requires enemies, and they have to be numerous and convincing and Evil, and to have a proper background in the previous books. Hordes of dementors and Giants can help, but they won't be enough. JKR has been showing us that the roots of evil start at home and at school, and that evil is created by people and their values, not by demons and monsters. Surely this is what Slytherin house was invented for? So we can have a pureblood mania and school rivalry and evil enemies and a convincing war. And if that doesn't seem fair, well that's fiction. >Invented characters don't get human rights.< Betsy Hp: Erm... *bad* fiction, maybe. Evil at eleven, huh? Absolutely no hope for any child sorted into Slytherin. Kinda of stupid of the founders to keep Slytherin. Stupid of the many headmasters Hogwarts has had over the years to not just gas those despicable little brats as soon as the Sorting Hat sang out "Slytherin"! Honestly, the Weasley twins shouldn't have held back at just hissing the newly sorted Slytherins. Maybe they should have force fed them some of their candy experiments, watched the little tikes bleed out. Score some for the good guys? It would make poor Snape and Niguellus feel fairly useless. A Headmaster and a Head of House, obviously freakishly different from any Slytherin before or since, totally unable to cast the evil out of their house. And of course one of the biggest fools would be the Sorting Hat and its naive, and in the end rather pointless, song in OotP. Screw school unity, obviously the Slytherins need to die. (Because no Gryffindor or Ravenclaw would ever even *think* about going against dear, sweet, fluffly, little Harry.) Betsy Hp From juli17 at aol.com Mon Jun 27 02:27:11 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:27:11 EDT Subject: The good Slytherin Message-ID: <29.75eb0211.2ff0bdff@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131488 > Subject: Re: The good Slytherin > > This one is easy to answer, there are no good Slytherns. I've been > rereading the books to get ready for HBP and not once do you see a > single decent or honorable act by a Slythern. Not once does a single > Slythern student perform a act of friendship or tolerance for Harry nor > do you read of any Slytherns disapproving of Drago Malfoy's actions. > All you see is a bunch of nasty little snakes trying to craw up the > ferret's ass as far as they can go. It not just Malfoy but all of > Slythern House that has declared themselves Harry's enemies. Julie says: Where do we ever read of all Slytherins *approving* of Draco's actions? In fact, we actually *do* read of one who doesn't approve, or at least isn't interested in joining Draco's antics. And where in the book do we read that all in Slytherin House have declared themselves Harry's enemies? AFAIK, most Slytherins haven't really declared themselves either way. It's been mentioned, but we see Slytherins from Harry's POV exclusively. And we only see perhaps a dozen of them--Draco and friends, along with some on the Quidditch team--while the vast majority are essentially non-entities at the moment. What we do know that every Slytherin toasted Cedric, and some also toasted Harry. Simple , but we don't really know for sure Fact is, we don't know enough about the majority of Slytherins to know whether they are LEANING toward good or toward evil. I capitalize the word leaning because we are talking about children after all, some as young as 11 years old, and it seems very presumptuous to write them off so immediately and based only on their house affiliation. Not much different in fact than some Slytherins writing off all muggle-borns as inferior. > > If there is such a thing as good(non evil more likely)Slythern > then they will probably show up in HBP with the news that Voldemort is > back. I hope that they will be some Slytherns that want nothing to do > with Voldemort and this will lead them seek out an alliance with the > other Houses. But they will have to make the first move. They will have > to show contrition to their school mates and they will have to first > apologize to Harry and make a show of friendship not the other way > around. > > > McMax > Julie says: Er, apologize for WHAT? Existing? Being sorted into Slytherin by the Sorting Hat? What have most Slytherins done to Harry or anyone else at Hogwarts other than support their own house in various competitions, as all students do? I really don't see any reason at all the condemn a whole house for the actions of some. I agree Slytherins will more likely be "Not Evil" rather than "Good." No one is fully "Good" or "Evil," including every Gryffindor we've met. They too have human faults, be it recklessness (Harry/Sirius), insensitivity (Ron), intolerance (Hermoine), passiveness (Lupin), blind ambition (Percy), occasional meanness (twins), arrogance (James), and even cowardice (Peter). The list could go on. Fact is, even those on the side of good are only "Mostly Good," and some perhaps just "Not Evil," if we consider Snape's apparent actions and attitude. Still, I'm hoping one or two Slytherins might fall in the "Mostly Good" camp myself, and I don't think there's a single piece of canon that would make this impossible or even improbable (including that even Snape could end up in the "Mostly Good" camp). Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Mon Jun 27 02:46:01 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:46:01 EDT Subject: Shades of Grey Message-ID: <212.387728a.2ff0c269@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131489 It seems to me some fans tend to see the characters in Harry Potter as either all black or all white (i.e., all good or all evil). I find it interesting when JKR has gone to such lengths to create shades of grey in her characters--Snape, Peter, Sirius, Dumbledore, Hermoine, Lupin, etc, etc, straight on to Harry himself. In fact, without those shades of grey I don't think the HP series would be anything more than another run of the mill children's fantasy series, if it even got beyond the first book or two. It doesn't have to be a choice between "Evil, Abusive Snape" and "Best Teacher and Our Hero Snape"--in fact, JKR has made it pretty obvious Snape lies somewhere inbetween. Likewise, we don't have to see a Slytherin with pasted on angel wings appear to prove that all Slytherin's aren't irredemably evil from the day they start at Hogwarts. Like in real life, humans in any group run the gamut between good and bad behavior, with most falling somewhere in the middle. And even when there is immense pressure to act out or condone evil, some refuse to submit. (Those who hid or helped Jews in the midst of the Nazis are one example.) I think there are more shades of grey in everything--including ourselves--that most of us want to see. Which is why I hope JKR calls the 7th book "Harry Potter and the Shades of Grey." ;-) Just my opinion, Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 27 03:07:19 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:07:19 -0000 Subject: Theo Nott Re: The good Slytherin (mild TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131490 Potioncat: I've jumped into this post, snipping here and there, responding to both Betsy and to Neri. > > Betsy Hp: > > > > As to the basilisk, no one really knows *why* Salazar left the > > basilisk behind. Oh sure, *Tom* had his theories, but are we really expected to trust the word of a murderer? Potioncat: I know better than to do this, especially this late in the game, but I have a question: Do we really "know" that Salazar left the basilisk in the Chamber? I'm tired, it's late; if this is an incredibly stupid question will someone gently direct me to the correct canon? > Neri: > In the HP saga, if you're half giant or a werewolf or the son of Dark > wizards or whatever, you are supposed to show in some way that you > aren't bound by your unfortunate ancestry. If Theo had done the > smallest thing to indicate that he doesn't like his ancestry, I would have gladly given him a T. Until now he hadn't, so I gave him a P. If you insist on a T it would still hardly change the picture of the whole house. Potioncat: I've no concern for the rest of the House. But I will stand up for Theo, at least until JKR gives us more info. And I really, really would have liked it better if she had actually given us the deleted scene between Draco and Theo. What were these kids taught about Harry? I mean, just look at the different spin you get from history depending on whether the writer was York or Lancaster (waves to Carol); or whether you learned American history in the South or in the North. (The name Sherman still gives the chills and I was born 90 years AFTER the War of Northern Agression.) But consider this about Theo. Although Draco's gang, or Draco's cronies (can't actually remember the phrase) is mentioned from time to time, it's very vague as to who is in that group. At the time, it is usually during a class. Neither Theo nor Blaise are ever described as coming to class with Draco. While Pansy and Milicent are mentioned along with specific behaviors, Theo and Blaise aren't. So, once in class the Slytherins, much like the Gryffindors, gather together, they don't seem to hang out together out side of class. Theo is named once with Draco; when they are reading the article about DEs in the library. Later, when Draco, Crabbe and Goyle come upon Harry in the Entrance Hall, Theo isn't with him. And on the train, Theo doesn't join in on the attempted revenge. So he doesn't seem to show enough loyalty to the Sons of DEs to earn a P. I'd suggest a D or T. A Fiodor Knott, used in harness making, is a very difficult knot to learn. I'd say Theodore Nott may be a difficult Slytherin to to know. > Neri: She *can* introduce additional "good > Slytherins" just to make a point about prejudice or school unity or > second chances. But changing the whole role that Slytherin house, with > its dogma and values, has been playing in the series would be lousy > writing. Potioncat: Not is she's had it planned all along. Although I have a certain "feel" for the outcome, it could go either way. If the ultimate theme is that courage is good and ambition is bad, then there probably won't be any "good" Slytherins in the current bunch. If the ultimate theme is prejudice (or depending on stereotypes) is bad, then there will be "good" Slytherins. I lean toward the latter. Neri: Surely this is what Slytherin house was invented for? So we > can have a pureblood mania and school rivalry and evil enemies and a > convincing war. And if that doesn't seem fair, well that's fiction. > Invented characters don't get human rights. Potioncat: Well, if she goes with the Ambition as Bad, you're right. And we all have to remember: no real child was actually harmed by being sorted into Slytherin. Either way, I can't wait! From vloe at dallasnews.com Mon Jun 27 03:16:00 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (firebird) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:16:00 -0000 Subject: Why is Snape allowed to continue spying? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131491 Good question. LV must know that Snape is working for DD and the Order. When LV was sharing Quirrell's body, Snape made it very clear to Quirrell that he was dedicated to thwarting Quirrell's attempt to obtain the PS/SS for LV. At that point, presumably, LV was too weak to do away with Snape. Either that or he didn't want to arouse DD's suspicion by murdering a teacher right under his crooked nose. I suppose we have to assume that the other DE's who have had access to Snape at Hogwarts (Lucius Malfoy, Barty Crouch Jr., Karkarof, McNair) either similarly did not want to draw attention to their allegiance to LV or were unable to kill Snape because he is a more powerful wizard. All that said, I'm not sure LV knows Snape is a spy. I think Snape does his spying long-distance, by means of legilimency. If he's skilled enough, he can look inside the DE's minds (perhaps even LV's mind) without their realizing it. I figure that in the days of LV's ascendancy, Snape hung out with the DE's and learned to get into their heads. Now he sneaks in undetected while remaining within the protective walls of Hogwarts. Actually, I can't recall his ever leaving Hogwarts, except to go to No. 12 Grimauld Place, which is equally heavily protected. In short, Snape is smart, careful, skilled and powerful -- as well as thoroughly unpleasant. firebird From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 27 03:21:23 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:21:23 -0000 Subject: Draco, Cunning? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131492 I wanted to respond to a previous post earlier, and didn't write the number down. Now of course I can't find it. Someone said that Draco isn't cunning. But I have this to offer: Draco was injured by Buckbeak. We know that. A great deal of blood was lost. It was two weeks before he was back in Potions and he wore the sling for a lot longer. Harry thinks he was faking, and so do most of us. Either he wan't faking, or he tricked Pomfrey, Snape, McGonagall, Flitwick and Sprout. So either he was cunning enough to fool all of them, or he was injured that badly. I think it would be very hard to fool Pomfrey. I could believe Snape let him get away with it, if (and only if) it provided an advantage to the Slytherin Quidditch team for him to be on the injured list. That's assuming Snape knew he was faking. I can't imagine why any of the others would put up with it. So, which is it? Did he fool all of them? Or was he injured that badly? Potioncat, not defending Draco, you understand. From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 03:23:40 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:23:40 -0000 Subject: Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > > > > > > > Chris: > > > Now obviously the DEs know the dead ones whom LV > > > is referring to. > > > Karkaroff is the cowardly one, Barty JR. the loyal > > > one, that leaves > > > Snape. > > > > Juli: Actually I always thought that "The one who has > > left me forever, he'll die" is Karkaroff, "The Coward > > who'll pay" is Severus, and I agree that Barty of > > course is the loyal one. >I don't think LV would fall for this excuse. "I'm at > Hogwarts...gimme a sec and I'll be right there." Besides, I think >the > information LV has on the Death Eaters is what he has gleaned from > speaking to Pettigrew, Bertha's memories, Crouch Jr., and Crouch >Sr. > LV does not see or speak to any DEs until they apparate into the > graveyard. So obviously he learned of Snape and Karkaroff from one of > these sources. Saraquel: Actually, I think LV learned about Snape whilst nestled in Quirrel's turban. But, in the Occlumency lesson where Harry directly questions Snape says: OotP p521 Br Ed "...it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters. 'No - that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him. ...... "Yes, Potter...." Snape does not say his job is to spy directly on LV, but to find out what LV is saying to his DEs - very different thing. I think that either Snape has a ship with Narcissa, and has had for a long time. JKR has hinted that we will find out about Snape's love life in book 7. Or he has some sort of blackmailing relationship with one of the Malfoys. His protection of young Draco would imply the former to be more likely and am presuming that this idea has lead to speculation on this list about, is Draco Snape's son? (I've seen that as the subject of a post before, but didn't read it.) There is also the tantalising hint JKR put on her website denying Luna to be Snape's daughter, but adding at the end - "Snape does not have a daughter." I don't think that Snape is spying directly, but using the Malfoys in some way. If he is entangled with Narcissa, then he would jump at the mention of Lucius Malfoy as one of the DEs, as Harry recounts in the hospital scene at the end of GoF, guilty conscience and the very real danger of Lucius finding out about it. Saraquel From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 27 03:39:29 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:39:29 -0000 Subject: Today's Standards (was Snape's abuse) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131494 > John K now: The lines are drawn so that, > no matter what, teachers can never abuse students in any way. Many of > the tactics Snape uses (particularly threats and deliberate > destruction of grades) would be sufficient to lose a modern teacher > his job, even with just a single occurance. Some would - and should - > lead to prosecution. Potioncat: First, I agree (for those who don't know) Snape is a terrible teacher, or at least, he has terrible methods. But, as to the single comment above, I would like to add: by today's standards (at least in my county) James would be charged with sexual harrassment for his treatment of Severus after OWLS and if he did remove Severus' pants, he'd be charged with sexual assualt. I know because a boy was so charged for similar behavior in our county. Potioncat who has now posted 3 times today and will turn into a toad if she posts again...at least for the next 20 mins or so... but who does not want Snape or James so charged. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 03:54:27 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:54:27 -0000 Subject: Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131495 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > Now obviously the DEs know the dead ones whom LV is referring to. Karkaroff is the cowardly one, Barty JR. the loyal one, that leaves Snape. This scene doesn't look to me as if LV is trying to put on a show for Harry or the others. He genuinely believes Snape is gone from his service, and will be killed as punishment. Lucius Malfoy is among the DEs present, so how can he act like normal in the presence of Snape? It would seem Lucius would be the closest to him, could kill him easily, and return to LV with news of his death and regain > his master's favor. > > Now if Snape is a double agent, which he very well could be (though > I doubt it) then the above scene makes no sense. Like I stated, I > think LV was genuinely angry, not just putting on a show. > Tonks: We don't really know who LV was referring to. We are only assuming. Maybe he thinks that Karkaroff is dead. Maybe not. But there is a reason why LV might refer to Snape as the one who has left forever and still think that Snape is a double agent working for him. Remember Snape was not present at the battle of the MoM. This may be to protect him from being killed by a DE who thinks that he has left forever. But LV would not kill Snape himself. Perhaps only LV and Malfoy know that Snape is a double agent. That way Snape can spy for both sides. If LV fears that there may be traitors among the DE wouldn't he let them think that Snape was working for DD? That way a traitor would try to contact Snape. Then Snape would be in the rather intriguing position of really knowing who the traitors would be without really working for LV, but LV thinks that he still is. The traitor DE would trust Snape believing that he has left LV forever. And LV thinks that Snape is really still working for him. Snape only has contact with Malfoy for this reason. Perhaps the other DE's don't know that Malfoy has contact with Snape or if they do thereis some story to cover it that seems plausable. Hummm soon we will know.. maybe. Tonks_op From editor at texas.net Mon Jun 27 04:11:43 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:11:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) References: Message-ID: <001301c57ace$55aa4140$a758aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131496 John K posted: > I chose the examples above (from many more like them) because these > are all instances either of Snape acting unprovoked (i.e. not in > response to anything specific) or blantantly overreacting to a > situation. Furthermore, they are all verbatum, and hence not subject > to the influence of Harry's perceptions (as are his facial > expressions, etc.) Well chosen. > Perhaps when you wonder about abusive methods you are thinking of > physical abuse, which of course Snape does not use. However, > psychological and emotional abuse is just as serious. I am a high > school teacher and I can tell you that no matter what a student may > say or do to me, it is illegal for me to resort to name-calling or > personal insults. If a student tries to leave the room, it is illegal > for me to stand in his way. It is illegal for me to touch a student > for any reason except physical protection of another student, even if > I am being physically assaulted myself. The lines are drawn so that, > no matter what, teachers can never abuse students in any way. Okay, I have to make a point here. Let me say right now that I am NOT defending Snape's nastiness. But you are equating "abusive" with "illegal"--and they are not the same (just as "ethical" and "legal" are often two very very different things). I have been on the list for almost five years, and every single "Is Snape abusive?" thread inevitably gets down to semantics--what constitutes "abuse," how Snape measures up against modern U.S. standards/rules, modern U.K. standards/rules, etc. I'm not trying to bring us to semantics early and nip the full bloom of opinion-stating about Snape's methods that this thread promises--but I really, really cannot let "illegal" and "abusive" stand for each other. Your example, for instance, has a logical corollary that standing in a student's way if he tries to leave the room *is* abusive, and I question the sense of that. Just because the current American school system is paranoid in the extreme about holding students accountable for their actions and punishing them in any way, does not therefore make it true that trying to control a student's behavior or hold him accountable for his mistakes is therefore abusive. Snape is doing both of these. I think his methods can be very nasty; but I fully believe that he is entitled to the goal of control and discipline. It sounds like you don't believe either the methods, *or* the ends, are justified. And I think children should be exposed to someone like Snape. The sooner they learn that life isn't fair; that some people are mean for no reason; that sometimes the mean ones are on your side even if they're not nice; and that the nice people aren't always your friends--the better. It's called reality. Most school systems and theories seem to set out to protect children from reality, rather than give them a chance to learn to deal with it. ~Amanda From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 04:16:16 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:16:16 -0000 Subject: Shades of Grey/Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: <212.387728a.2ff0c269@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131497 Juli wrote: > It seems to me some fans tend to see the characters in Harry > Potter as either all black or all white (i.e., all good or all evil). I > find it interesting when JKR has gone to such lengths to create > shades of grey in her characters--Snape, Peter, Sirius, Dumbledore, > Hermoine, Lupin, etc, etc, straight on to Harry himself. In fact, > without those shades of grey I don't think the HP series would be > anything more than another run of the mill children's fantasy series, > if it even got beyond the first book or two. Alla: Juli, I of course can speak for myself only, but it is not that I see characters in JKR's world to be black and while, but I do think that JKR beliefs system is much less grey than many fans tend to think. I am prepared to eat my words, of course. I asked that question earlier, but I will ask it again. Do you have any doubt that Dumbledore's side is GOOD side and Voldemort's side is BAD side? Now, sure characters who inhabit both sides could be grey, but I do believe that lines are drawn quite clearly and for example philosophy of "pureblood" superiority is drawn as philosophy of bad guys. > >>Neri: > >And the whole mistrust argument doesn't really hold water, IMO. > Wouldn't it be the Muggle-born wizards who were the most vulnerable > to muggle persecution, not having magical teaching in how to control > their magic and how to hide or protect themselves?< > > Betsy Hp: Yes, muggle-born wizards were in > more danger than pure-bloods. But muggle-born wizards also had the > strongest ties to muggles. They had their feet in two different > worlds and therefore were more likely to become traitors. Alla: Betsy, wasn't your initial argument that Salazar was somehow RATIONAL in not trusting muggleborns because he was saving his fellow wizards from muggle persecution. I say ( hopefully it is the same what Neri says) that it does not hold water because those kids were also wizards, who were most likely to fall under the threat of persecution. If I misread you, could you clarify please? Salazar may have thought that muggleborns would become traitors, but it does not mean that he was somehow justified in such thinking. > >>Neri: > >Salazar was apparently ready to let them burn because they weren't > pure enough.< > > Betsy Hp: > They weren't *trustworthy* enough is how I'd see it. Alla: OK, let's rephrase Neri's sentence. Salazar was apparently ready to let them burn because " they weren't trustworthy" enough. Somehow I don't see how it makes Salazar's ideas sound less horrible. Potioncat: Well, if she goes with the Ambition as Bad, you're right. And we all have to remember: no real child was actually harmed by being sorted into Slytherin. Either way, I can't wait! Alla: Yep, I agree with you, Potioncat, I absolutely do. I think that both paths are equally possible, but I am more inclined to think of "A few good Slytherin" scenario, not all of them. Although I most certainly can see Theo and /or Blaise among them. I cannot wait either. Alla. From editor at texas.net Mon Jun 27 04:17:52 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:17:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why is Snape allowed to continue spying? References: Message-ID: <001c01c57acf$3063e840$a758aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131498 Chris: > I don't think LV would fall for this excuse. "I'm at > Hogwarts...gimme a sec and I'll be right there." Don't forget, though--if Snape did leave to go to Voldemort at the end of GoF, to try to weasel back into his good graces, Voldemort has a good reason to let him live. He (Voldemort) has just had Harry Potter foil his plans and escape, right in front of the whole crew of loyal Death Eaters. His plan, whatever it was, failed at least in part, quite publicly. He needs a fallback. So I can see that Snape, positioned strategically at Hogwarts close to Dumbledore, can make a case to Voldemort that he (Snape) has spent 14 years of his life deluding Voldemort's greatest enemy so that he will be in a position to be of most use when Voldemort returned, as he (Snape) and all truly loyal DEs knew would occur. Voldemort has a vested interest in making it seem that he had a Plan B of Snape being his tool at Hogwarts all along. So I can see that Voldemort would take the excuse--not without a fair amount of Crucio, *somebody's* got to take the brunt of Voldemort's frustration at Harry's escape--but it's in Voldemort's interest to save face and take control again after the graveyard fiasco, and Snape's appearance might been just the thing. ~Amanda From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Jun 27 04:56:57 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:56:57 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: <001301c57ace$55aa4140$a758aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > > And I think children should be exposed to someone like Snape. The sooner > they learn that life isn't fair; that some people are mean for no reason; But mean people should not be tolerated simply because they exist, quite the opposite. > that sometimes the mean ones are on your side even if they're not nice; Are they? I'm not at all sure that Snape is on Harry's side in any meaningful way. That remains to be seen. and > that the nice people aren't always your friends--the better. It's called > reality. So what? Murder is part of reality, as well, so is rape. I hope you don't mean children should be exposed to murderers and rapists. No, I don't mean that Snape is a murderer or a rapist. I just point out that the argument is, IMO, extraordinarily weak. Most school systems and theories seem to set out to protect > children from reality, rather than give them a chance to learn to deal with > it. > Rather, modern school systems and theories are in place to prevent just the kind of abuse that Snape practices -- and much worse things as well. Lupinlore From jmkearns at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 03:46:44 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:46:44 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131500 First of all, this will be my (I believe) fifth post here, and I realized today that I've displayed some rather horrid manners. So, my apologies, and hallo! My thanks to everybody who posts and reads here for what is really a wonderful community. You all really make me THINK about HP, which is a lot of fun. Onward --> One more quick side note: for an excellent post about Slytherin and the basilisk, check out #71191. > Betsy Hp: > Ah, the old, "let's hold Draco Malfoy to a higher standard than > Harry" argument. Harry has day-dreamed about putting a teacher he > disliked under a Cruciatus curse and bashing his head in with a > cauldron. In fact, Harry actually threw a cruciatus at someone. > So if we're expected to look at twelve year old Draco's idle day- > dreams about the girl he hates getting conveniently killed as an > example of evil, then I expect our next to discussion to be about > what a horrid little boy Harry has turned out to be. > <> > As I've said, many times before, Draco is spouting his *father's* > philosophy. We have absolutely no canon to tell us if this is > what all Slytherins believe. Betsy Hp graces the surface of an issue (amidst a good argument) that I believe will have to come to the forefront of the story in the next two books, and which will hit us in the face with the 'Slytherin is evil' standpoint the books have taken to this point: Draco Malfoy is not yet himself. I don't mean he is being Imperio-ed or anything like that. But I, at least, tend to forget while reading the books that Harry, Malfoy, and the rest are all *kids* - kids who, even at the end of their fifth year, are only just beginning to feel out and understand their own personalities and opinions. Fourth and fifth year (US equivalent = first two years of high school) are a time when kids are developmentally just beginning to comprehend things like the effects of their actions, the significance of positive relationships, and their importance and role in larger society. And I think we've seen these realizations starting in Harry - his discoveries, for example, that Dumbledore is not infallable, that his father was imperfect, that his actions could bring about a person's death, and that he is to be a critical factor in the WW's war against Voldemort. We've very little indication to this point, however, that Draco Malfoy has experienced anything similar. He still espouses the ideas and rhetoric of his father and acts toward his peers in ways that demonstrate a lack of understanding of potential consequences. But though at the end of OotP we don't see much of Draco, we do see a chain of events that almost certainly should make him *think* about his role - his father exposed as a criminal, his arch-enemy revealed to be a hero, and almost certainly the full gravity of Voldemort's ideals, now that his family, too, has been torn apart. Perhaps even that his buddy Goyle is having a change of heart (why the heck isn't he on the inquisitorial squad?). Now Draco may react in any number of ways, and I'm certainly not here to suggest that he will be crawling to Harry asking to be his sidekick, because of course he won't. Nobody's character changes *completely* overnight or even in two years, despite some fanfiction suggesting the contrary. And of course one possibility is that he'll think everything through and decide he's on his father's side, or something close to it. Naturally there are all sorts of potential consequences here, but this being the less interesting possibility, I'm going to leave it at that. The more intriguing possibility, of course, is that Draco finds he doesn't quite believe in all the horrific things his father has taught him. He'll be too proud and scared of his father to blantantly switch sides, of course, and he'll continue to torment Harry because he'll still be as jealous of him as ever. But his fundamental beliefs will change. He'll still be nasty on the surface - after all, what else does he know to be? And maybe he won't even side with the good guys but just start to feel a little sorry for them. But - and remember, this is just one possibility - some piece of the facade he's built will come crumbling down. We already know that Rowling's previously planned a chapter with Draco discussing Death Eaters, that we're seeing more of Narcissa in this book, and, significantly, that Draco will indeed have a Detour in chapter 6. Doesn't it seem likely that *something* interesting will happen with this young man? Rowling has consistently shown us characters in varying shades of gray. In fact, the only characters we know much about that continue to be one-dimensional are the Slytherins - a viewpoint largely left over from Harry's 11-year-old self. I can't fathom that this would continue. Harry will now be grown up enough to see it; I think it highly likely, given the evidence, that Draco will too. So, then, what would the consequences of this change be? It's hard to say without knowing the context of what is to happen at Hogwarts, but perhaps his still-nasty self will ask to join the now-in-the- open DA. Perhaps he'll subtly defend Hermione in class one day, much to the Gryffindors' shock. Perhaps he'll tip Harry off in secret that some danger is imminent. Who knows. But he'll show us, in some small way, that Slytherin is *not* evil. That anyone is capable, when making the right choices, of being a good person. And what better way to get a bit of insight into the mind of Voldemort - the one and only *true* evil the books have shown us? Thanks again for the wonderful group. And remember - this is just my opinion. I'd love to hear yours. ;) John K From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Mon Jun 27 05:33:33 2005 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:33:33 -0000 Subject: HP Prediction Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131501 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? tonks, and mr olivander > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Dumbledore > 3. What is Lily's big secret? She wa sin slytherin? > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Fleix Felicitas > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? a special cauldron that must be used for the potion found in the advanced potion book > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes because the new teacher will accept students who got an E on OWLs not just O students > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? no > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? everything except for astronomy, hisotry of magic, and divination From oppen at mycns.net Mon Jun 27 06:17:03 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (ericoppen) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:17:03 -0000 Subject: Anti-Muggleborn prejudice and its real-world analogs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131502 I personally think that the analogy to the Nazis is a tad overdone in this case. My own theory is that the loathing that people like the Malfoys have for "M*dbloods" and Muggles maps more closely to British class antagonism---in this case, high-class (Eton/Harrow/Rugby, Oxbridge, Guards regiments, etc.) against those who "just aren't up to our standards, don't you know." To this day, having an accent that's "wrong" for the group you're in can be an ordeal---whether you're too "posh-spoken" or too "working- class." Children whose accents don't fit in often find it expedient to transfer to different schools. I acknowledge that this prejudice is not nearly as strong as it used to be, but the Wizard World is conservative in many ways---in some ways it's medieval, in others, pseudo-Victorian, and in still others it echoes the Britain that existed before 1945. If you think of Muggleborns as people who're trying to get higher in the class system (sort of like the Dursleys, oddly enough; Smeltings may be a real social coup for them) a lot of things start making sense. After all, if all that mattered was magical power, nobody would dare to sneer at a Hermione Granger (and Draco Malfoy's father would be all but pushing his son into her bed.) From buffyeton at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 06:29:18 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:29:18 -0000 Subject: Draco, Cunning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131503 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I wanted to respond to a previous post earlier, and didn't write the > number down. Now of course I can't find it. Someone said that Draco > isn't cunning. But I have this to offer: > > Draco was injured by Buckbeak. We know that. A great deal of blood > was lost. It was two weeks before he was back in Potions and he wore > the sling for a lot longer. Harry thinks he was faking, and so do > most of us. Either he wan't faking, or he tricked Pomfrey, Snape, > McGonagall, Flitwick and Sprout. So either he was cunning enough to > fool all of them, or he was injured that badly. I think it would be > very hard to fool Pomfrey. > > So, which is it? Did he fool all of them? Or was he injured that > badly? > > Potioncat, not defending Draco, you understand. I don't think a great deal of blood was lost, and he was only out of classes for about 4 days. I think he was playing up his injury. I don't think that you'd need it to be badly bleeding to stay out of class or wear a sling. All you have to do is whine incesently, and get your Daddy to write a note saying you should rest. >From what Malfoy has done so far, he doesn't come off as being cunning or really all that clever. Tamara From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 07:18:32 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:18:32 -0000 Subject: the ring on the cover of HBP In-Reply-To: <20050626134814.84758.qmail@web86707.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131504 Fitzov: Bloomsbury book cover - The ring is also black, with some sort of pattern (possibly a column on it) and didn't Kreatcher try to rescue a golden ring bearing the Black family crest from Sirius during the 'cleaning' of 12 Grimmauld Place? tinglinger I thought that the ring could be something divided - represented by Harry's scar - but even magnified the picture does not show us WHAT is divided. However, that division sure looks like Harry's scar to me. btw imho the only link between Kreacher and the ring is that Harry will no doubt "ring" Kreacher's neck if Dumbledore didn't beat him to it. tinglinger who loves homonyms and ringing in some good theories in his group potterplots which will become very active around the end of this month including a prediction poll or two and hopefully a chat if I can figure out how to set it up without getting yahoomorted ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 27 08:40:30 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:40:30 -0000 Subject: the SPOILER on the cover of HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131506 S P O I L L E R S P A C E just in case anyone still doesn't know about the ring... they must be as blind as Fudge. * > Fitzov: > Bloomsbury book cover - The ring is also black, with some sort of > pattern (possibly a column on it) and didn't Kreatcher try to > rescue a golden ring bearing the Black family crest from Sirius > during the 'cleaning' of 12 Grimmauld Place? > > tinglinger: > I thought that the ring could be something divided - represented by > Harry's scar - but even magnified the picture does not show us WHAT > is divided. However, that division sure looks like Harry's scar to > me. > > btw imho the only link between Kreacher and the ring is that > Harry will no doubt "ring" Kreacher's neck if Dumbledore didn't > beat him to it. > > tinglinger > who loves homonyms and ringing in some good theories in his group > potterplots which will become very active around the end of this > month including a prediction poll or two and hopefully a chat if I > can figure out how to set it up without getting yahoomorted ... JLV here: The canon quotes relevant to this are: (From the Great and Noble House of Black OotP): "Several times Kreacher sidled into the room and attempted to smuggle things away under his loincloth, muttering horrible curses every time they caught him at it. When Sirius wrested a large golden ring bearing the Black crest from his grip, Kreacher actually burst into furious tears and left the room sobbing under his breath and calling Sirius names Harry had never heard before. "'It was my father's,' said Sirius, throwing the ring into the sack. 'Kreacher wasn't quite as devoted to him as to my mother, but 1 still caught him snogging a pair of my father's old trousers last week.'" In chapter 23, the trio look into Kreacher's den: "In a far corner glinted small objects and coins that Harry guessed Kreacher had saved, magpie-like, from Sirius's purge of the house." One of these small objects could possibly be the ring that Kreacher sneaked out of the rubbish before it was taken away. (Who does wizarding dustbins anyway? Methinks there is a future career for Goyle in the wizarding waste disposal services.) I was thinking that this might be relevant particularly because JKR saw fit to mention how particularly upset Kreacher was about this particular ring, even though it belonged to Sirius' dad, who wasn't Kreacher's favourite. I like the idea that the scar-shaped break is representavive of something 'in essence divided'. Nice connection. JLV xx Who is feeling particularly prescriptivist today and thinks that `wring' and `ring' are more properly called homophones. Homonyms are (in the narrowest sense) two or more words spelled and pronounced the same but with different meanings, but the use of homonym to mean one of two or more words pronounced alike but with different meanings is so widespread that it can hardly be called incorrect. Irregardless of what I just said ;-) From prncssme at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 09:31:39 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:31:39 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131507 John K: > What's more, it seems very, very improbable that even a single one of > these instances is taken out of context or through a skewed > perception. In other words all of these actions are, on Snape's part, > very conscious and deliberate - not something he let slip while > meaning to say something else. This makes them even worse. Princess Sara: I really think that judging Snape by the standards of the American public school system is highly problematic. The wizarding world as presented in the books comes off as very old-fashioned and Victorian-esque. Compared to some of the methodologies of Victorian "schools", Snape's teaching style is practically benevolent in comparison! Does this excuse his rather nasty turns of phrase? Probably not but I do think it puts them into perspective. It's also rather telling that you mention the deliberateness of Snape's words and actions, IMHO. Snape is, as far as we know, a double agent and very used to watching the things he says. Nearly all of your examples, particularly the ones from OoP and GoF, were in the presence of Slytherin students. I know the "good" Slytherin debate is currently raging, but the cold hard truth is that the majority of DEs and soon-to-be DEs are in Slytherin house. Imagine if Snape had reacted sympathetically to Hermione's teeth and Draco Malfoy had told his daddy? Or if word got round to LV that Snape had missed an opportunity to torment Neville Longbottom, the other boy who could have been a threat to the Dark Lord? I really don't think Snape CAN be nicer without seriously risking his life. John K: > He really is a horrible person who has no business being around > children. I suppose Dumbledore has his reasons. Princess Sara: We've come to a point we can't debate! JKR has explicitly said that Snape is a deeply horrible person and even I, the most willfully blind fangirl around, can admit that's very clear. Snape very obviously takes pleasure in the fine art of the snark but I don't think that means he has no business teaching. I had a remarkably Snape-like teacher in high school (way more years ago than I really want to admit to) who reigned over her classroom with a tight fist and absolutely no sympathy for nasty, snivelling little teenagers. She was mean, she was sarcastic, and she made us work at a level high above what was expected of us by other teachers. But I've never forgotten anything she taught me and I cried at her funeral. I think that's what Snape is for most of the students at Hogwarts. The horrible, mean spirited person who teaches you more than you ever thought possible. - Princess Sara, who at 3:30am tends to get a little maudlin and over-emotional From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Mon Jun 27 09:49:44 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:49:44 -0000 Subject: Half-blood Princes in European Literature Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131508 Hi, I just read one of those Guardian columns yesterday which says "there are lot of half-blood princes in strangest medieval European poems." I am not familiar with this literature and can somebody elucidate on the matter? Bye Adi From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 27 11:56:02 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:56:02 -0000 Subject: Shades of Grey/Good Slytherins/Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131509 I thought it might be useful to take a slightly wider view of these discussions and stand back to get a better view. One of the dangers into which we all fall from time to time is to draw generalisations and try to make them apply to individual cases. I have to admit that I am not fond of the USA as a country and, like many of my UK compatriots, often think of the country as pushy, arrogant and rather full of itself. This has not been helped recently by the very mixed feelings in the UK about our involvement in the war against Iraq. However, since I came onto HPFGU about two years ago, I have had occasion to exchange emails off-group with several other members ? many of them living in the US and have found them to be pleasant, friendly and sociable. So I have to remind myself that we are not all identical copies of each other. I think that there are parallels which can be drawn between Slytherin house and Germany during the Hitler years. I am just old enough to remember the end of the Second World War, having started going to school at Easter that year. Obviously, my views as a child were shaped by my home and friends and things I heard said. For many years in the UK, there was no such thing as a good German whereas the Allies were perfect. For years, war films were produced depicting the Nazis as evil, brutish thugs and the Allies were always winning, usually led by somebody such as John Wayne who did everything on his own. :-) As time went on, we began to see that one of our allies had been as brutal a tyrant as Hitler and the Cold War soon shattered our illusions about our relationships. We also began to see that our side of the story was flawed. I, for one, have always deplored the bombing of Dresden as but one example of questionable motives. There were also folk in Germany who worked on the side of good ? Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of the leading figures of the Confessing Church comes to mind ? and others who tried to bring down the Hitler regime because they saw that it was destroying anything worthy and honourable in the country. Here we can see the points which have been made by those who want to show that labelling all Slytherins as evil is a generalisation which is as wrong as the real world cases mentioned above. The comparison is not quite as direct as with the two sides in World War Two because Voldemort is not the unchallenged leader of the Wizarding World but he has polarised opinions into those who support the good and those who lean towards evil. As a side thought, I often wonder if JKR consciously paralleled Voldemort with Hitler because we have here two dictators who espouse ideals which they themselves do not fit ? Hitler with his Aryan obsession and Voldemort aiming for pureblood dominance when Hitler wasn't tall, blond and blue-eyed and Voldemort isn't a pureblood .. In a recent discussion on the question of being sorted into Slytherin. I wrote as part of a reply in message 130929: "We need to remember that they didn't /choose/ the house, the Sorting Hat placed them there. They may have accepted this because, at the age of 11, they thought that this was what Hogwarts wanted and couldn't be altered; so I wonder how many incoming pupils over the years have challenged the Sorting Hat's thinking as Harry did?" I suspect that there are many families with pupils in the house who are not in favour of Voldemort, his Death Eaters and their pureblood policy but are happy to leave their offspring there because they see that, among other things, Slytherin is a house which encourages cunning, ambition self-reliance and perhaps business acumen which, used properly, are not in themselves wrong aims. Finally, Draco. I have said on a number of occasions that I have a sneaking sympathy for him. With eleven years of having no other view than Voldemort's racism and his father's class snobbery poured into his ears, it's surprising he's still sane. I have said also that, as a Christian, I believe that no one is irredeemable unless they put themselves into that position by their attitude and behaviour. After all, Saul of Tarsus set out to crush the early Christian church but, after he had the famous meeting with the risen Christ on the Damascus road, he performed a complete volte-face and became one of the most powerful advocates of the then-new Christian faith. I'm not suggesting that Draco might have a Hogsmeade road experience ? although it could happen in real life ? but he's sharp enough to see which way the wind is blowing and might yet decide that being a Death Eater isn't worth the hassle. We are often reminded that were are seeing things from Harry's point of view and he hasn't had a huge amount of interaction with folk from all the other houses. We only see a small number of pupils named in other houses. When I was at school in my teens, I didn't know everyone in my year because I had a circle of close friends and I knew a few other folk in the year because, maybe, they belonged to the same school society, we got the same bus home or whatever. So any analysis of Slytherin tendencies is drawn from too small and too biased a sample for us to draw accurate conclusions. Time will tell. From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 27 12:26:50 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:26:50 -0000 Subject: Quidditch Captain (was Re: Will Ginny be a prefect?) In-Reply-To: <06fbc76d5f31d4ec936baba42b035a16@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131510 > Snip > I think Ginny might become Griffindor's new Quidditch captain. > She's not too young, after all Wood was team captain in his fifth > year. Unlike Ron, Ginny seems to be a natural athlete too. Can you > imagine the mess if she has to tell Ron that he's been replaced by > a better player? I think JKR has hinted (somewhere?) that Ron may > have trouble making the team next year, so this speculation seems > to fit the hint. > > Barbara Roberts (Ivogun) JLV: I think the hint to which you are referring is this from the World Book Day chat: bibwhang: Will Ron ever get on the Gryffindor quidditch team? JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's already there! The question is, whether the new Quidditch Captain will allow him to stay! I personally don't take this as a hint that Ron will have trouble making the team. It just seems to say ? Why ask that question? Ron was already on the team in OotP! A better question would be `Who will be captain next year?' as they will dictate the team... or something more along those lines. The obvious choice for captain is Harry (as star player and longest serving member), but given that he has rather enough responsibilities to be going along with, I am actually hoping that Ron will be captain and JKR is teasing us with her comment (after all, she never actually says he won't be captain). He may not be the best player, but he sure would make a good team leader. Ginny is an excellent candidate too, but I wish it could be Ron. I'm sure he'll gain more confidence as Quidditch captain (especially with the ladies ? imagine the comedy that would ensue). Ginny just doesn't need the self-esteem boost as much, in my opinion. Weasley is our king! JLV xx From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 12:43:54 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:43:54 -0000 Subject: IMO, Sirius and Albus... /Veil sends back in time.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131511 > Chys: > > Dropping in my 2 knuts here: > Maybe they dunno he's really dead and just assume that you pass > through the veil to death? Maybe he's been sent back in time, to a > random time in history, and that would be why he seems to know > everything- one thing against it, why didn't he stop certain things > from happening- maybe he couldn't and not affect time up until this > point? *just playing around with theory here* Finwitch: I myself play with the theory that the Veil may well send people back in time... That it exists outside of time and therefore one can go to any time trough it. However, Sirius Black does NOT become Dumbledore. For two reasons: 1) Dumbledore may seem to know a lot of things, but he does not understand *Harry* whereas Sirius does. (Hmm - Dumbledore tells Harry - and expects Harry to know well - that ignorance is worse than outright hatred. However, Harry's reaction shows just the opposite: Harry's staying away from Dursleys/'the rule number one for quiet life' - how both Harry and Ron saw Hermione's refusal to speak to them as an 'added bon?s' - or how Harry found it a *relief* when Snape was giving him the silent treatment. As for Sirius - well, he was quite right about objecting Snape teaching Harry, about telling Harry all, about - well, even what Harry feels). Going back trough time you're to gain more understanding, not LOSE it! Besides, Sirius has Black hair and young Albus had Auburn hair. (OK, hair can be dyed by potions/spells, but still...) Besides, Albus has a brother, so that doesn't fit into that theory either. However, SB might come back as a lead singer of Hobgoblins - Stubby Boardman. Quibbler has already made the connection, after all... (and, SB may have crabbed the rat, too) even though we get Harry's disbelief, and Hermione's snorting, and all the Snorkacks and Nargles... (Well, how do we know whether these things exist. Did Hermione believe in magic until she got her letter? We know Harry didn't) - well, each time Harry disregards something, it's important. Yes, the Quibbler was - as a channel for him to have his story, but I do believe this article about Sirius may have more validity than Harry thinks... Finwitch From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 12:46:15 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: <001301c57ace$55aa4140$a758aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: <20050627124615.42667.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131512 --- Amanda Geist wrote: > And I think children should be exposed to someone like Snape. The > sooner they learn that life isn't fair; that some people are mean > for no reason; that sometimes the mean ones are on your side even > if they're not nice; and that the nice people aren't always your > friends--the better. It's called reality. Most school systems and > theories seem to set out to protect > children from reality, rather than give them a chance to learn to > deal with it. Actually, I think this is the reason that JKR gave when she was asked why Dumbledore kept Snape on as a teacher, namely that bad teachers are a fact of life (not exact quote). Makes sense to me. We all had crap teachers in our student years; people who really should have been doing something else for a living or people who had given up and simply didn't care anymore or just people who had no idea how to control a class except by yelling at it. Snape doesn't fall into these three categories; he's more of a "takes out his frustrations on the class" type. But I disagree with some of John's examples such as when Snape confronts Harry and threatens him with veritaserum because he thinks he's lying when Harry says he didn't steal from Snape's office. Snape has every reason to think it's Harry who after all did use Gillyweed in his task and Snape can tell if somethings missing from his stores. I think that would look pretty open and shut to most teachers. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eileennicholson at aol.com Mon Jun 27 12:48:12 2005 From: eileennicholson at aol.com (eileennicholson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:48:12 EDT Subject: Character parallel Message-ID: <1ed.3eb4c3c8.2ff14f8c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131513 Geoff Bannister: >snip< if JKR consciously paralleled Voldemort with Hitler >snip< ? Hitler with his Aryan obsession and Voldemort aiming for pureblood dominance when Hitler wasn't tall, blond and blue-eyed and Voldemort isn't a pureblood?..< Is JKR using any parallels in creating Dumledore? Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Eileen Nicholson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From labmystc at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 12:56:49 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:56:49 -0000 Subject: Draco, Cunning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131514 Tamara wrote: > I don't think a great deal of blood was lost, and he was only out of > classes for about 4 days. I think he was playing up his injury. I > don't think that you'd need it to be badly bleeding to stay out of > class or wear a sling. All you have to do is whine incesently, and > get your Daddy to write a note saying you should rest. > > From what Malfoy has done so far, he doesn't come off as being > cunning or really all that clever. > > Tamara Chris: I would have to agree with Tamara here. Draco doesn't strike as one who is all that clever at all. Or all that talented a wizard, either. Like Dudley, Draco constantly has an entourage around him for protection. Draco knows that on his own, he wouldn't stand a chance against Harry, or Hermione for that matter. So he has his goons with him most of the time. Plus, he's picked a fight on the Hogwarts Express at least twice, and paid the price for it. Not very clever, in my opinion. As far as the injury to his arm...I think any person with a talent for whining and sucking up, such as Draco, and a powerful, influential father such as Lucius, could weasel his way out of anything. Draco is not clever, he's just a big baby and knows how to play up his talent. Chris labmystc From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 27 13:21:28 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:21:28 +0100 Subject: will Ginny be a prefect Message-ID: <001d01c57b1b$21781b20$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 131515 I personally don't think Ginny will be a prefect - that is, if Dumbledore decides to make no changes in the Griffindor ones. In OotP Chapter 10 Hermione tells Harry and the others in the compartment that there are two prefects from each house. Actually, assuming that was still the case when Percy was a prefect, we don't hear who the girl prefect at that time was. Derek From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 27 13:21:56 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:21:56 -0000 Subject: Shades of Grey/Good Slytherins/Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131516 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > As a side thought, I often wonder if JKR consciously paralleled > Voldemort with Hitler because we have here two dictators who espouse ideals which they themselves do not fit ? Hitler with his Aryan obsession and Voldemort aiming for pureblood dominance when Hitler wasn't tall, blond and blue-eyed and Voldemort isn't a pureblood .. Pippin: Wonder no more. ----- http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/fal l00-bbc-newsround.html (Lizo:)Voldemort's a half-blood too (JKR:)Like Hitler! See! I think it's the case that the biggest bully takes their own defects and they put them on someone else, and they try to destroy them. And that's what he -- Voldemort -- does. That was very conscious -- I wanted to create a villain where you could understand the workings of his mind, not just have a 2-D baddie, dressed up in black, and I wanted to explore that and see where that came from. Harry in Book Four is starting to come to terms with what makes a person turn that way. Because they took wrong choices and he Voldemort took wrong choices from an early age. --- Even if JKR intends Slytherin to be emblematic of the wrong choices children make, it does not follow that Slytherins are people who *always* make wrong choices. Some of the anti-Slytherin rhetoric around here comes perilously close, IMO, to "the only good Slytherin is a dead Slytherin". I have a feeling JKR is consciously leading people to make these kinds of over-simplifications as a kind of object lesson. I think in her mind the source of much prejudice is not hate but mental laziness, again making the easy choice instead of the right one. Pippin From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 13:36:47 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character parallel In-Reply-To: <1ed.3eb4c3c8.2ff14f8c@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050627133647.65922.qmail@web33715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131517 Eileen: > Is JKR using any parallels in creating Dumledore? Marozi: Historical parallels, you mean? I would say in a very general, cultural-archetype sense, Dumbledore is Churchill to Fudge's Chamberlain. He's willing to accept responsibility for making the hard, no-win decisions, willing to speak unpalatable truths that people don't want to hear, willing to ask people to make what seem like unfair sacrifices, and willing to take the blame when things go wrong. It's what makes him the WW's de facto wartime leader, regardless of who the official minister is. ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From labmystc at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 14:12:53 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:12:53 -0000 Subject: Shades of Grey/Good Slytherins/Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > I thought it might be useful to take a slightly wider view of these > discussions and stand back to get a better view. > > One of the dangers into which we all fall from time to time is to > draw generalisations and try to make them apply to individual cases. > I have to admit that I am not fond of the USA as a country and, like > many of my UK compatriots, often think of the country as pushy, > arrogant and rather full of itself. This has not been helped recently > by the very mixed feelings in the UK about our involvement in the war > against Iraq. Chris: I would have to agree with you on this point, and I think its a generalization we have made in regards to this story. It is easy to take a look at the leader of a group, and characterize all of his people or follwers in the same vein as the leader. I for one am not pushy, arrogant, and full of myself. Yet, many people from other parts of the world would classify me that way because I'm American. I think we fall into the trap with the WW. Voldemort, Snape, Malfoy and his Cronies all fall to the left of center when it comes to Good and Evil. Yes, some are worse than others, but overall, we classify the whole of Slytherin as possessing those same qualities though we haven't even met or heard of the majority of them. We could say the same of Gryffindor. The characters we have met belonging to that house all seem to fall on the side of good. Yet have we met all of them? No, we haven't, so there may be an evil Gryffindor lurking in the mist. I root for the individual in these cases, and do not classify all members of a group as having the same qualities as their more popular examples. I do not think all Arabs are terrorists, all Americans are haughty and arrogant, etc. etc. I look for the individual who can stand out, step up, and say that he or she is different from the rest. I think we will see this in the last two books, I hope so anyway. JKR does not write one-dimensional characters, and I hope that comes through in the last two. Chris labmystc > > However, since I came onto HPFGU about two years ago, I have had > occasion to exchange emails off-group with several other members ? > many of them living in the US and have found them to be pleasant, > friendly and sociable. So I have to remind myself that we are not all > identical copies of each other. > > I think that there are parallels which can be drawn between Slytherin > house and Germany during the Hitler years. I am just old enough to > remember the end of the Second World War, having started going to > school at Easter that year. Obviously, my views as a child were > shaped by my home and friends and things I heard said. For many years > in the UK, there was no such thing as a good German whereas the > Allies were perfect. For years, war films were produced depicting the > Nazis as evil, brutish thugs and the Allies were always winning, > usually led by somebody such as John Wayne who did everything on his > own. :-) > > As time went on, we began to see that one of our allies had been as > brutal a tyrant as Hitler and the Cold War soon shattered our > illusions about our relationships. We also began to see that our side > of the story was flawed. I, for one, have always deplored the bombing > of Dresden as but one example of questionable motives. There were > also folk in Germany who worked on the side of good ? Dietrich > Bonhoeffer, one of the leading figures of the Confessing Church comes > to mind ? and others who tried to bring down the Hitler regime > because they saw that it was destroying anything worthy and > honourable in the country. > > Here we can see the points which have been made by those who want to > show that labelling all Slytherins as evil is a generalisation which > is as wrong as the real world cases mentioned above. The comparison > is not quite as direct as with the two sides in World War Two because > Voldemort is not the unchallenged leader of the Wizarding World but > he has polarised opinions into those who support the good and those > who lean towards evil. > > As a side thought, I often wonder if JKR consciously paralleled > Voldemort with Hitler because we have here two dictators who espouse > ideals which they themselves do not fit ? Hitler with his Aryan > obsession and Voldemort aiming for pureblood dominance when Hitler > wasn't tall, blond and blue-eyed and Voldemort isn't a pureblood .. > > In a recent discussion on the question of being sorted into > Slytherin. I wrote as part of a reply in message 130929: > "We need to remember that they didn't /choose/ the house, the Sorting > Hat placed them there. They may have accepted this because, at the > age of 11, they thought that this was what Hogwarts wanted and > couldn't be altered; so I wonder how many incoming pupils over the > years have challenged the Sorting Hat's thinking as Harry did?" > > I suspect that there are many families with pupils in the house who > are not in favour of Voldemort, his Death Eaters and their pureblood > policy but are happy to leave their offspring there because they see > that, among other things, Slytherin is a house which encourages > cunning, ambition self-reliance and perhaps business acumen which, > used properly, are not in themselves wrong aims. > > Finally, Draco. I have said on a number of occasions that I have a > sneaking sympathy for him. With eleven years of having no other view > than Voldemort's racism and his father's class snobbery poured into > his ears, it's surprising he's still sane. I have said also that, as > a Christian, I believe that no one is irredeemable unless they put > themselves into that position by their attitude and behaviour. After > all, Saul of Tarsus set out to crush the early Christian church but, > after he had the famous meeting with the risen Christ on the Damascus > road, he performed a complete volte-face and became one of the most > powerful advocates of the then-new Christian faith. I'm not > suggesting that Draco might have a Hogsmeade road experience ? > although it could happen in real life ? but he's sharp enough to see > which way the wind is blowing and might yet decide that being a Death > Eater isn't worth the hassle. > > We are often reminded that were are seeing things from Harry's point > of view and he hasn't had a huge amount of interaction with folk from > all the other houses. We only see a small number of pupils named in > other houses. When I was at school in my teens, I didn't know > everyone in my year because I had a circle of close friends and I > knew a few other folk in the year because, maybe, they belonged to > the same school society, we got the same bus home or whatever. So any > analysis of Slytherin tendencies is drawn from too small and too > biased a sample for us to draw accurate conclusions. Time will tell. From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Jun 27 14:04:53 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:04:53 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131519 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John Kearns" wrote: > > Betsy Hp graces the surface of an issue (amidst a good argument) > that I believe will have to come to the forefront of the story in > the next two books, and which will hit us in the face with > the 'Slytherin is evil' standpoint the books have taken to this > point: Draco Malfoy is not yet himself. > > I don't mean he is being Imperio-ed or anything like that. But I, > at least, tend to forget while reading the books that Harry, Malfoy, > and the rest are all *kids* - kids who, even at the end of their > fifth year, are only just beginning to feel out and understand their > own personalities and opinions. > > We've very little indication to this point, however, that Draco > Malfoy has experienced anything similar. He still espouses the > ideas and rhetoric of his father and acts toward his peers in ways > that demonstrate a lack of understanding of potential consequences. > But though at the end of OotP we don't see much of Draco, we do see > a chain of events that almost certainly should make him *think* > about his role - his father exposed as a criminal, his arch-enemy > revealed to be a hero, and almost certainly the full gravity of > Voldemort's ideals, now that his family, too, has been torn apart. > Perhaps even that his buddy Goyle is having a change of heart (why > the heck isn't he on the inquisitorial squad?). > > Now Draco may react in any number of ways, and I'm certainly not > here to suggest that he will be crawling to Harry asking to be his > sidekick, because of course he won't. Nobody's character changes > *completely* overnight or even in two years, despite some fanfiction > suggesting the contrary. And of course one possibility is that > he'll think everything through and decide he's on his father's side, > or something close to it. Naturally there are all sorts of > potential consequences here, but this being the less interesting > possibility, I'm going to leave it at that. Very, very good points. I agree that having Draco continue in his present mode would be less intriguing -- i.e. less dramatic. However, it might also be more realistic and a better literary device. You are right that none of the kids are really "themselves." But most people aren't -- that is, very few people really have a well developed sense of self at any age from 16 to 99. Adolescence is a time of great turmoil and change, but I'm not sure most people find it a time of overall deepening in self-knowledge. Why should Draco "think everything through?" Most people rarely think anything basic through thoroughly -- and I include myself in that. And I'm not sure why having his family sundered should lead to a great deal of self-exploration and questioning. It could do so, I agree. But in my experience it is much more common for people to cling even tighter to their basic beliefs in time of crisis. The fact is plenty of people are born and nurtured in evil, and grow into horrible ideas and actions with nary a qualm of conscience or remorse or questioning. It is one of the saddest facts about the human condition. > > > We already know that Rowling's previously planned a chapter with > Draco discussing Death Eaters, that we're seeing more of Narcissa in > this book, and, significantly, that Draco will indeed have a Detour > in chapter 6. Doesn't it seem likely that *something* interesting > will happen with this young man? Not necessarily. Many would argue the expunged chapter was orginally intended to introduce Theo Nott rather than to provide much development of Draco. And one chapter title isn't much evidence of anything -- other than that Draco will in fact figure into the story in some way. > > Rowling has consistently shown us characters in varying shades of > gray. In fact, the only characters we know much about that continue > to be one-dimensional are the Slytherins - a viewpoint largely left > over from Harry's 11-year-old self. I can't fathom that this would > continue. Harry will now be grown up enough to see it; I think it > highly likely, given the evidence, that Draco will too. > Rowling certainly has shown us shades of grey in the day to day lives of the characters. However, I'm not so sure that applies to the big questions. Rowling seems to have a very strong sense of good and evil, and as the big questions come to dominate life at Hogwarts I think we may see that coming through more clearly rather than less. It is possible that the lines will be drawn more clearly, and more harshly, than many readers would like. > So, then, what would the consequences of this change be? It's hard > to say without knowing the context of what is to happen at Hogwarts, > but perhaps his still-nasty self will ask to join the now-in-the- > open DA. Perhaps he'll subtly defend Hermione in class one day, > much to the Gryffindors' shock. Perhaps he'll tip Harry off in > secret that some danger is imminent. Who knows. But he'll show us, > in some small way, that Slytherin is *not* evil. That anyone is > capable, when making the right choices, of being a good person. > > And what better way to get a bit of insight into the mind of > Voldemort - the one and only *true* evil the books have shown us? > I do think we will see a "Good Slytherin." But I think this will play out within the context of JKR's very strong morality, which is not what a lot of people would like. I think the "Harry's viewpoint" argument is deployed a lot more often than it should be. We always talk about Hermione and DD being JKR's mouthpieces. But I suspect that Harry is her eyes. I think often his perceptions are JKR's perceptions. When it comes to Slytherin house, I think a lot of Harry's basic perceptions are Rowling's basic perceptions. That is, much as many readers would like it to be otherwise, she really does find the values and characteristics of Slytherin house problematic and mostly objectionable, and she really does have a mostly disapproving attitude toward people who evince those values and characteristics. Thus, in the case of the "Good Slytherin," I think this will be someone who doesn't fit the Slytherin mold all that well. I doubt we will see this as someone who makes Harry realize that he has judged the values of Slytherin house unfairly, but rather someone who makes Harry realize good people can survive even in a hostile environment. The Good Slytherin will have some Slytherin characteristics -- probably that of coming from an old pureblood house. But I doubt very much, despite the wishes of many readers, we will see an argument for the value of craftiness or ambition. I just don't sense that JKR has a great deal of respect for those traits. Now, does Draco fit the bill of someone who can do this? Not at all. In fact, does Draco fit the bill of someone likely to be redeemed at all? It is true that people do change -- but changes have to have some seed or foundation on which to build. The child IS the father of the man after all. What have we seen in this child that is evidence he can grow into a good man -- even one of such extraordinarily problematic goodness as Snape? Not much. He loves his parents -- which is a good trait. But that isn't much to work with. What would be the purpose of changing Draco? It would show no one is born evil, which would be an effective message. It would show the value of redemption. But JKR already has several characters that may serve that purpose, including Percy, Snape, and Pettigrew. What would be the literary value of Draco not changing? It would provide a needed example of what happens when someone doesn't question and isn't redeemed. Redemption has no meaning except when compared with the opposite. We have Voldemort, of course. But he is an *alien* example, an example of someone who really isn't human anymore. To drive the lesson home we need a fallen person who IS human, and who preferably is one of Harry's age-mates. It would be tragic, in a sense. But it would also illustrate the real fact that you can't save everyone, and that people often tread a very easy path to damnation. Lupinlore From labmystc at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 14:22:19 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:22:19 -0000 Subject: will Ginny be a prefect In-Reply-To: <001d01c57b1b$21781b20$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131520 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Thorburn" wrote: > I personally don't think Ginny will be a prefect - that is, if Dumbledore > decides to make no changes in the Griffindor ones. In OotP Chapter 10 > Hermione tells Harry and the others in the compartment that there are two > prefects from each house. Actually, assuming that was still the case when > Percy was a prefect, we don't hear who the girl prefect at that time was. > > Derek Chris: Prefects remain prefects until the time they leave school or "get promoted" to Head Boy or Girl, am I right? I'm not sure from the readings. It seems Percy was a prefect until he was made Head Boy. Using Percy as an example, I think Hermione will more than likely make Head Girl in her seventh year (not so sure about Ron). This would leave an opening for a girl prefect in Gryffindor, and Ginny may be the potential person to fill it. Chris labmystc From jenneferp at muzak.com Mon Jun 27 13:58:14 2005 From: jenneferp at muzak.com (jenzajlp) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:58:14 -0000 Subject: Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131521 Chris wrote: Perhaps this has been discussed, I'm not sure. During my re-reads a question has popped into my mind. Why is Snape allowed to continue to get close to Death Eaters like Malfoy? Voldemort obviously knows that Snape has betrayed him and joined the Order. Luicius Malfoy more than likely knows that Snape is a traitor by now? How can he continue in his function as spy when everyone knows he has joined DD. Or am I missing something? Jen writes: Has it actually been confirmed in canon that Snape's job in the Order is to spy on the Death Eaters? It's assumed that this is what he's doing by H, Hr, & R, but JKR has been very coy about this subject in the books. At the end of GoF (and please forgive my lack of clear references, as I don't have my books in front of me) when Dumbledore begins handing out assignements to the professors, he asks Snape if he "knows what he must do" (approximate quote). It is never said what Snape is actually doing. The only other clear reference to Snape's duty for the Order is when Harry is practicing Occlumency. "...it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters. 'No - that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him. ...... "Yes, Potter...." (quotes from OotP stolen from Saraquel's post) IIRC, Snape pauses for a moment before his "Yes, Potter" and smirks as he answers. This passage has always bothered me - Would Snape willingly agree with Harry about this if it was the truth? And if he were to confirm this for Harry, would he do it in such a smug/condescending way? (Granted, Snape reeks of smug attitude, but usually when he's got the upper hand). If Harry were right about this, wouldn't it have caught Snape off guard? I read this passage in a different way. IMO, Harry assumes he knows what Snape's job is...but he's wrong. Snape is amused by what he sees as Harry's arrogance and smugly agrees, instead of clarifying what he's actually doing for the Order. Is there anything in canon that specifically says that Snape is currently working as a spy? I personally think there's something more to Snape's duties than we know and that there's a big reason they've been kept a secret from us. Of course...I have no theories on what he could be doing if he's not a spy. Any takers? :) Jenza From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 27 14:37:17 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:37:17 -0000 Subject: Shades of Grey/Good Slytherins/Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131522 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > I thought it might be useful to take a slightly wider view of these > discussions and stand back to get a better view. > > One of the dangers into which we all fall from time to time is to > draw generalisations and try to make them apply to individual cases. > Pippin: Indeed. Assuming the Slytherins don't know the Muggleborns any better than the Muggleborns know them, might they not draw their conclusions based on the ones who draw the most attention to themselves? Hermione and Colin? And even Harry didn't have a positive first impression of them. Pushy, obnoxious, full of themselves? You'd better believe it! Pippin From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 14:57:41 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:57:41 -0000 Subject: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131523 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" > wrote: > > > > > Betsy Hp: > > Okay, I'll bite. But first I have to ask, what abusive methods? > > Making Harry call him sir? Demanding potions be done correctly? > > Disliking class disruptions? Throw some canon at me, because I > > seriously don't know what you're talking about when you > say "abusive > > methods". > Hickengruendler: > > The only part where I would call Snape abusive is the scene with > Neville's toad. I find this mentally abusive towards Neville, even if > Snape didn't really plan to poison Trevor (which I admit is > possible). Even making Neville think that he would kill his beloved > pet is clearly crossing the line, IMO. >From "Prisoner of Azkaban": "Possibly no one's warned you, Lupin, but this class contains Neville Longbottom. I would advise you not to entrust him with anything difficult. Not unless Miss Granger is hissing instructions in his ear." This is completely over the top--abuse, gratuitous abuse, pure and simple. > I also wanted to mention the comment regarding Hermione's teeth, but > it was not really abusive just mean. I disagree. It was a deliberate insult of a distressed student, not associated with her behavior or performance in class--abuse, full stop. > a.) Snape's teaching methods did have some success in the end, > because Neville passed the OWL. Snape's lessons are hard, but so is > life and Neville has to master this as well. The Potion OWLs are a > step in the right direction. If Neville gets an OWL in Potions, it probably means that Hermione is an effective tutor. Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 15:02:41 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:02:41 -0000 Subject: Shades of Grey In-Reply-To: <212.387728a.2ff0c269@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: > I think there are more shades of grey in everything--including > ourselves--that most of us want to see. Which is why I hope JKR > calls the 7th book "Harry Potter and the Shades of Grey." ;-) Nah. The title of book seven has already been announced: S P O I L E R "Neville Longbottom and the Misunderstood Prophecy" Amiable Dorsai From jmkearns at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 15:23:48 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:23:48 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: <001301c57ace$55aa4140$a758aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131525 > Amanda: > Okay, I have to make a point here. Let me say right now that I am > NOT defending Snape's nastiness. But you are equating "abusive" > with "illegal"--and they are not the same (just as "ethical" > and "legal" are often two very very different things). John K: Good post, Amanda. This is certainly true. Confusing legality with ethics often gets people in trouble, as it just has me ;). I guess what I was trying to point out was, these behaviors are *seen* as abusive by some, hence the laws. I see Snape's treatment of students as abusive, but perhaps (probably?) this is only because I've been trained to do so. I know very little about practices in schools in other parts of the world, so my experience is limited. Would this be considered abuse elsewhere? > Amanda: > Just because the current American school system is paranoid in the > extreme about holding students accountable for their actions and > punishing them in any way, does not therefore make it true that > trying to control a student's behavior or hold him accountable for > his mistakes is therefore abusive. Snape is doing both of these. I > think his methods can be very nasty; but I fully believe that he > is entitled to the goal of control and discipline. It sounds like > you don't believe either the methods, *or* the ends, are justified. John K: I think I can see where you're coming from. It's a difficult situation, to be sure, which I think is why our school system has chosen to draw the line at the most definable place (teachers can do *nothing*). Of course this is one extreme, just as 'teachers can do *anything*' would be the other. Snape falls somewhere in the middle. So is it okay? One big thing still sticks out at me: threatening Harry with the Veritaserum. Yes, he believes Harry has broken into his office. But I can't imagine many parents being happy with their child being threatened with a controlled substance that would put the child in a completely indefensable position. > Amanda: > And I think children should be exposed to someone like Snape. The > sooner they learn that life isn't fair; that some people are mean > for no reason; that sometimes the mean ones are on your side even > if they're not nice; and that the nice people aren't always your > friends--the better. It's called reality. Most school systems and > theories seem to set out to protect children from reality, rather > than give them a chance to learn to deal with it. This is clearly Dumbledore's perspective, as well as Rowling's. And I agree with it... to an extent. I certainly cringe every time I pass one of our new plastic playgrounds with no moveable parts - if our kids never get injured, how are they to learn what can hurt them in reality? Will a swing really kill them? Or a splinter? This is much the same issue. I am not a parent yet, so it is difficult for me to fully understand the perspective. Certainly most American parents, right or wrong, would have screamed *foul* at Snape long ago. I still feel it's inappropriate for the school's second biggest bully to be a teacher, whether the teacher feels justified or not. There must be a line somewhere, and I feel, as Harry does, that Snape *sometimes* crosses it. But, perhaps that's my pansy American self speaking again (and I don't mean that sarcastically... I'm not fond of my culture or what it's done to me). So, Snape shouldn't be fired. But I do think Dumbledore should be keeping a close eye. After all, if we're going to draw the line in the gray area, it necessarily falls to the headmaster to enforce it. Probably he is, and we just haven't seen it. He certainly contains Snape's anti-Harry outbursts in mixed company, ignores Snape's requests for Harry's expulsion, and (Harry thinks) perhaps prevents Snape from failing him first year. Maybe our headmaster does know what he's doing, after all. :) John K From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 15:26:21 2005 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:26:21 -0000 Subject: HP Prediction Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131526 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Snape and Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Hagrid 3. What is Lily's big secret? 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character not previously introduced. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amanda Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes, he will get an E on OWLs but Dumbledore will force Snape to take him into the class, giving Snape one more grievance against Harry 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? no 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? everything except for astronomy, history of magic, and divination Rolshan From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 15:33:41 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:33:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: <001301c57ace$55aa4140$a758aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131527 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > John K posted: I am a high school teacher and I can tell you that no matter what a student may say or do to me, it is illegal for me to resort to name- calling or personal insults. If a student tries to leave the room, it is illegal for me to stand in his way. It is illegal for me to touch a student for any reason except physical protection of another student, even if I am being physically assaulted myself. The lines are drawn so that, no matter what, teachers can never abuse students in any way. Tonks now: Good God, now I see what is wrong with our schools these days!! You can not even defend yourself?? No wonder kids are so disrespectful of adults these days!! A little fear of authority is what they need. Hey Filch were are you? ;-) Seriously, even in the mental heath field the worker can defend themselves. They are taught a specific technique and if used as taught they can even subdue and restrain a client. ~Amanda said: Just because the current American school system is paranoid in the extreme about holding students accountable for their actions and punishing them in any way, does not therefore make it true that trying to control a student's behavior or hold him accountable for his mistakes is therefore abusive. Snape is doing both of these. I think his methods can be very nasty; but I fully believe that he is entitled to the goal of control and discipline. (Snip) Tonks now: I agree with Amanda. Snape is just like the teachers we use to have in the 50's and early 60's. I see nothing wrong with him. He knows his subject well and has high standards for his students. I didn't like those types of teachers, they were not the friendly ones, but (looking back) they did their job and did it well. All I remember about the ones we liked is the fun stuff that they taught that had nothing to do with the subject. That I can type this sentence today is because of a nasty no nonsense typing teacher. We were all emotionally abused back then and some (boys) where mildly physically abused. It was a different time. Hogwarts lives in a different time as well. We can not judge the teachers of Hogwarts by some *modern* standard in the U.S. schools. Snape is guilty of emotional abuse at times, yes. There are many offices and other places of employment where the Snapes of the world function. I am not discounting the severe consequences to someone who is emotionally vulnerable. I am just saying that there are far worse behaviors that occur everyday in our country and around the world and we need to get rid of those first. There are many nasty people in the world that are law abiding people. I am not defending them, but you can't fire them all just for being nasty. Who would run the country, after all? I think we are getting a bit namby pamby if we can't tolerate Snape. There are much worse people in the world (WW or MW) and we need to take care of them first before we go after an otherwise law abiding person who is just a little curt in his remarks. Yes, as a child I would have been like Neville and Snape would have destroyed me emotionally. But there are far worse things that a person or teacher could do and we do not see Snape doing them. Umbridge comes to mind. No one have every argued in *her* defense and that is because she is a very nasty person and the type that should be fired. She is cruel. Snape is just .. well Snape. I don't get the sense that Snape would do the sort of things that Umbridge does. There is a difference in the underlying personality of the two. Umbridge is the closest thing to being a DE without (I presume) being one. Snape was a DE, perhaps the good Slytherin. He doesn't seem to have that deep cruel streak that Umbridge does. Oh yes, he puts up a good front, but it is, IMO, a front. He is a good spy and must play the part. Not that I think that when he isn't a spy he would be the type to give little Neville a pat on the head. But I think that Snape is a good person and Umbridge is not. I have said before that I think Snape has a dark sense of humor that is not understood or appreciated. Hence, the remark about Hermione's teeth. "I don't see any difference" can mean "it is not all that bad" and a reassuring statement. So it is a matter of opinion. Hermione was not destroyed by it, and some of us reader saw it as a bit of humor. Not everyone has to be like peaches and cream. I have a friend like Snape. When I first met her I didn't like her. And she didn't like me, bleeding heart liberal that I am. We had a mutual friend that insisted that the two of us learn to tolerate each other and after a few years (and a few battles) we are the best of friends. So who knows, if they both survive the war, Harry and Snape might even become friends. You never know. Tonks_op From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 15:37:01 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:37:01 -0000 Subject: HP Contest - Send entries to Tiger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131528 Don't forget to email contest entries to Tiger, too. Really. If you haven't emailed it, you aren't entered. Good luck! TK -- TigerPatronus --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rolshan2000" wrote: > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? > > Snape and Dumbledore > > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? > > Hagrid > > 3. What is Lily's big secret? > > > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? > > A new character not previously introduced. > > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? > > Ginny > > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? > Amanda Bones > > > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? > Pensieve > > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? > yes, he will get an E on OWLs but Dumbledore will force Snape to take > him into the class, giving Snape one more grievance against Harry > > > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? > no > > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? > everything except for astronomy, history of magic, and divination > > > > Rolshan From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Mon Jun 27 15:38:18 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:38:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050627153818.20389.qmail@web86211.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131529 --- John Kearns wrote: > Probably he is, and we just haven't seen it. But we have seen it. Dumbledore has drawn a very clear line at physical harm to the students, and we've seen that it gets him very angry at OoTP. By the looks of it, Dumbledore (and Hogwarts culture in general) is significantly less sensitive to emotional abuse, however it's defined. Can anyone honestly say that any emotional "abuse" that Snape might have inflicted is worse (or even equal) than the detention in the Forbidden Forest for 11-year olds? McGonagall has assigned it, in case anyone has forgotten. Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 15:41:31 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:41:31 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin - Should we assume that S. House is not all evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131530 Alla wrote: "Are we supposed to think that Slytherin house is not all Evil simply because there is a possibility that we have not met some of its members yet?" Del replies: I can't believe that I'm reading something as fundamentally prejudiced as THAT, especially coming from someone who so adamantly claims to be against prejudice... Let me ask you a few questions, Alla: 1. WHERE in the CANON does it say that we are supposed to believe that all Slytherins are evil? 2. You're the lawyer: isn't there a little rhyme that goes something like "assumed innocent until proven guilty"? 3. What beginning of proof do you have that Blaise Zabini, Theo Nott and Daphne Greengrass, 3 Slytherin students in Harry's year, 3 students that he has been meeting several times a week for 5 years, are evil? We know for a fact that Theo Nott has been so neutral to Harry that Harry didn't even manage to learn his name in 4+ years! 4. What about Malcolm Baddock, Tracey Davis, Derrick, Terence Higgs, Graham Pritchard and Adrian Pucey? Are you REALLY saying that we are SUPPOSED to ASSUME that they are all evil simply because JKR didn't say otherwise? "They are Slytherins, so they are evil." Disgusting, prejudiced, unfounded, and unworthy of the wonderfully intricate, subtle, and complicated world that the Potterverse is increasingly showing itself to be. Del, irate From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 16:00:17 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:00:17 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: <001301c57ace$55aa4140$a758aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131531 Amanda: > And I think children should be exposed to someone like Snape. The sooner > they learn that life isn't fair; that some people are mean for no reason; > that sometimes the mean ones are on your side even if they're not nice; and > that the nice people aren't always your friends--the better. It's called > reality. Most school systems and theories seem to set out to protect > children from reality, rather than give them a chance to learn to deal with > it. > Alla: I can only speak for myself, but I most certainly will reject this way of introducing my child to the reality of life, if I can help it. I think my child will learn just fine that life is not always fair without being exposed to a teacher, who will threaten him to poison his pet, who if my child is injured will mock his injury instead of sending him to the doctor, who will become my child biggest fear. On top of all that, said teacher will decide to persecute my child, if he did not like me while we were at school. After all, I was blessed (IMO) with not having Snape like teachers when I was a child and even as a teen and learned just fine about unfairness of life. So, I think I will find other ways to explain to my child ther reality of life. Irene: > Can anyone honestly say that any emotional "abuse" > that Snape might have inflicted is worse (or even > equal) than the detention in the Forbidden Forest for > 11-year olds? McGonagall has assigned it, in case > anyone has forgotten. Alla: Yep, I absolutely can. I never had any doubt that they were watched VERY carefully on that detention. Harry got away, but that was for plot purposes, IMO. Alla wrote earlier: > "Are we supposed to think that Slytherin house is not all Evil simply > because there is a possibility that we have not met some of its > members yet?" > > Del replies: > I can't believe that I'm reading something as fundamentally prejudiced > as THAT, especially coming from someone who so adamantly claims to > be against prejudice... Alla: Erm.. Welcome back, Del. I would invite you to reread some of my latest posts, where I said that I am very open to the idea of Good Slytherin, but I am just as open to the idea that Slytherins will remain evil. Del: > "They are Slytherins, so they are evil." Disgusting, prejudiced, > unfounded, and unworthy of the wonderfully intricate, subtle, and > complicated world that the Potterverse is increasingly showing itself > to be. Alla: I don't subscribe to the idea that "only the name characters" can prove the non-evilness of the Slytherins. > Del, irate Alla: Sorry, if my post made you feel that way, but not sorry for the post itself. Just my opinion, Alla. From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Mon Jun 27 16:10:04 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:10:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050627161004.53818.qmail@web86208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131532 --- dumbledore11214 wrote: > > Irene: > > Can anyone honestly say that any emotional "abuse" > > that Snape might have inflicted is worse (or even > > equal) than the detention in the Forbidden Forest > for > > 11-year olds? McGonagall has assigned it, in case > > anyone has forgotten. > > > Alla: > > Yep, I absolutely can. I never had any doubt that > they were watched > VERY carefully on that detention. > > Harry got away, but that was for plot purposes, > IMO. Got away? No, he was doing exactly as told by Hagrid. The danger has found him, for a change. And he would have been completely and thoroughly dead if not for Firenze. If I remember Hagrid's advice, it was "stay on the path and shoot red sparks if in danger". That would've been really helpful against a verewolf or any other dangerous beasts in the forest. And that's beside the point anyway. Even if they were carefully watched and in no real danger, they didn't know that, did they? So the potential for "emotional scars" was still much greater than the infamous Trevor episode or whatever Snape is usually charged with. Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From rosered2318 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 16:08:33 2005 From: rosered2318 at yahoo.com (rosered2318) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:08:33 -0000 Subject: Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131533 My personal theory is that Snape is a spy, but not THE spy. I think Snape is a red herring for both the DE and the OOtP. My money is the Rookwood is actually THE spy for the Order, and someone yet to be discovered is spying on the Order for Voldemort. I read a great essay at the Lexicon about where all the DE's were during the fight at the MoM and Rookwood appears to be absent throughout most of the fighting. He reappears in the Death Chamber (or whatever it is called) at the end, fighting Kingsley with another Death Eater at his side. The next thing we know, Kingsley is fighting just the one Death Eater. Rookwood got out of the battle pretty quick. Take into account that Bagman was found passing information to him and Bagman managed to get released....maybe Bagman truly is an idiot and Rookwood let someone know it was unintentional. Come to think of it, how did Snape get away with not being there? And wouldn't he have known that there was going to be a trap? It appeared as though ALL the DE in Voldemorts inner circle were at the MoM. I was under the assumption that Snape was in the graveyard in GoF....(if you respond do this, please change the title so it doesn't get messy) Rosered From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 27 16:53:29 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:53:29 -0000 Subject: will Ginny be a prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131534 > > Derek > > I personally don't think Ginny will be a prefect - that is, if > > Dumbledore decides to make no changes in the Griffindor ones. In > > OotP Chapter 10 Hermione tells Harry and the others in the > > compartment that there are two prefects from each house. > > Actually, assuming that was still the case when > > Percy was a prefect, we don't hear who the girl prefect at that > > time was. > > Chris: > Prefects remain prefects until the time they leave school or "get > promoted" to Head Boy or Girl, am I right? I'm not sure from > the readings. It seems Percy was a prefect until he was made Head > Boy. Using Percy as an example, I think Hermione will more than > likely make Head Girl in her seventh year (not so sure about Ron). > This would leave an opening for a girl prefect in Gryffindor, and > Ginny may be the potential person to fill it. Actually Hermione says that there are two *fifth year* prefects from each house - I take this to mean that two fifth years are made prefects every year, so each house has three male and three female prefects at all times. It does not seem to be necessary to be a prefect to become Head Boy/Girl (James wasn't made a prefect in his fifth year but was Head Boy), but you can be both at the same time (like Percy). It may be that James was made a prefect in addition to Lupin, or Lupin gave up/was stripped of the honour, making it so the Head Boy is/was a prefect, but canon doesn't give us any information on this. The potential is there for Ginny to be a prefect, especially as she showed her mettle so well at the DoM and she hasn't made trouble like Fred and George. The only question is whether or nor there are better candidates in her year in the house. My instinct is to think that there aren't, and Mrs Weasley is going to be a very happy lady. JLV xx From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 17:07:22 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:07:22 -0000 Subject: Forbidden Forest detention / All Slytherins evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131535 Alla wrote: "Yep, I absolutely can. I never had any doubt that they were watched VERY carefully on that detention." Del replies: So carefully that precious 11-year-old Harry came within meters of Quirrellmort and was saved by the intervention of a non-school-staff forest resident... If I learned that my 11-year-old son, while serving his school-detention alone in a high-security prison, came within 10 meters of a machine-gun-holding terrorist and was saved only through the courageous intervention of a passing-by guard, I would NOT believe that his headmaster and his staff were protecting my son appropriately. Chances are that I would in fact pull my son out of this school, and sue the staff for having deliberately put my son into mortal danger. Alla wrote: "I would invite you to reread some of my latest posts, where I said that I am very open to the idea of Good Slytherin, but I am just as open to the idea that Slytherins will remain evil." Del replies: Remain? The Slytherins will REMAIN evil? Can you point me to the post where you or anyone carefully demonstrated that all the Slytherins ARE evil? What you are saying is "I will believe that all the Slytherins are evil as long as one of them isn't shown to be innocent". IOW: they are guilty until proven innocent, simply on the basis that they are Slytherin. This is pure and simple prejudice. Alla wrote: "I don't subscribe to the idea that "only the name characters" can prove the non-evilness of the Slytherins. " Del replies: I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate, please? Del From wargames at stratuswave.net Mon Jun 27 14:53:27 2005 From: wargames at stratuswave.net (uscsmarine4) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:53:27 -0000 Subject: Which School? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131536 > Pat: You're both right. GOF pg 676 Scholastic HC, BC Jr. > says: "Who put your name in the Goblet of Fire, under the name of a > different school? I did." But the Goblet had to me made to forget > that it is the TRIwizard tournament, and be hoodwinked into > accepting a fourth name. That's what I was trying to say. Several people mentioned the fact that there was a fourth school, (possibly a minor one?), but JKR never says what the name was. She rarely leaves such details out accidentally. Maybe something, maybe nothing. Uscsmarine From rosered2318 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 15:55:32 2005 From: rosered2318 at yahoo.com (rosered2318) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:55:32 -0000 Subject: Inconsistencies in the DADA position Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131537 I always have Snape on the brain..... "You have applied regularly for the Defense Agains the Dark Arts post since you first joined the school, I believe" - Umbridge, to Snape, pg 364 OOtP, US ed "the Ministry has the right to appoint a suitable [teacher] if - and only if - the headmaster is unable to find one." - Dumbledore, to Umbridge, pg 597 OOtP, US ed "He was the on'y man for th job....An' I mean the on'y one. Gettin' very difficult ter find anyone fer the Dark Arts job. People aren't too keen to take it on, see. They're startin' ter think it's jinxed." - Hagrid, about Lockhart, to HRH, CoS 115, US ed So these three things do not add up. Taking quotes one and two together, it would seem that DD is specifically keeping Snape from the DADA position. But quotes one and three directly contradict one another. In addition, if we assume that Snape was telling the truth about applying every year but Hagrid was wrong in quote three, what would make DD think that Lockhart would be a more suitable candidate than Snape? I know characters will sometimes give misleading information, but something about this really bugs me and I can't put my finger on what it is. Any thoughts? Rosered From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 18:08:12 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:08:12 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131538 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > ... I agree that having Draco continue in his present mode would be > less intriguing -- i.e. less dramatic. However, it might also be > more realistic and a better literary device. > > ...edited... > > Why should Draco "think everything through?" Most people rarely > think anything basic through thoroughly -- and I include myself in > that. ... But in my experience it is much more common for people > to cling even tighter to their basic beliefs in time of crisis. > > ...edited... > > What would be the purpose of changing Draco? It would show no one > is born evil, which would be an effective message. It would show > the value of redemption. But JKR already has several characters > that may serve that purpose, including Percy, Snape, and Pettigrew. > > What would be the literary value of Draco not changing? It would > provide a needed example of what happens when someone doesn't > question and isn't redeemed. Redemption has no meaning except when > compared with the opposite. ... > > It would be tragic, in a sense. But it would also illustrate the > real fact that you can't save everyone, and that people often tread > a very easy path to damnation. > > Lupinlore bboyminn: First, I think Draco must change, although I can see him going either way. In the end, he may be so full of spite and hate that he will be on the road to becoming the next 'evil overlord'. But the personal foundation of my belief that most strongly supports 'Redeemed Draco' is rooted in Draco finally having to face what it truly means to be a Death Eater and a Voldemort supporter. Right now Draco echoes his father's sentiments and engages in a very childish and transparent game of schoolyard bullying. Further I think Draco has a very idealized somewhat romantic vision of what being a Death Eater means. In his mind, he sees his father and to some extent, his father's friends getting chummy with Voldie. All of them sitting around talking tough, quaffing ale, and bragging about how superior they are. But he has yet to face the harsh cold merciless reality of the torture and murder of innocent people. Dealing with that in the abstract is easy, but when you have to be there and hear the screams and see the pain, and perhaps even be the one who causes those things, suddenly, it's not quite so romantic and idealized. Further, I think in his romantic notion of life under Voldemort, Draco sees himself, his father, and Voldemort standing on a high balcony while the wizard world below bows down to them. The ultimate symbol of power, superiority, and authority. The key is that he sees himself and his father standing side by side with Voldemort as an equal. He has yet to face the reality of having to bow, crawl on his hands and knees acting deeply reverent and servile, and kissing Voldies scaly butt ...er... make that the hem of his robe. It's in these harsh, cold, and terrible realities that the oh-so-not-brave Draco will have to make his choice. Up until now, it's been a schoolyard game of no consequence, but being a Death Eater is far from fun and games, and has severe consequences. As far as the possibility of Draco not changing, of him not ever having to face /hard/ decisions, I really don't see that happening. At the end of the last book, we already see things becoming more polarized. Harry is not longer taking a 'leave me alone Draco' attitude. Now it more a 'get in my face and you'll pay a price Draco' attitude. Draco also seems to have taken a step beyond schoolyard bullying, now it is very deep and personal. It seems reasonable that the polarization, the shifting of people to the extremes, will extend to the entire wizard world. In times of deep, difficult, and dangerous crisis like this, there isn't much room to stay safely on the middle ground. So, my point is that I think it is inevitable for Draco to change. Either he will be completely sucked into the Death Eater mentality, if not the actual organization, and be on his way to becoming Voldie-II, or he will suddenly be faced with the dark and nasty realities of beind a Death Eater and realize he doesn't have the stomach for it. But I say once again, with emphasis, that even if Draco rejects the Death Eaters, he will not suddenly become buddy-buddy with Harry. He might become 'not bad' but that doesn't be he will be good, and it certainly doesn't mean he will suddenly become nice. There is a part of me that is leaning toward 'Redeemed Draco', but other than a distinct lack of courage and real-world experience, we haven't seen much to support it. Perhaps, I'VE just been reading too much Harry/Draco slash. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 27 18:10:20 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:10:20 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131539 Lupinlore wrote: >>I think the "Harry's viewpoint" argument is deployed a lot more often than it should be. I suspect that Harry is her eyes. I think often his perceptions are JKR's perceptions. When it comes to Slytherin house, I think a lot of Harry's basic perceptions are Rowling's basic perceptions. That is, much as many readers would like it to be otherwise, she really does find the values and characteristics of Slytherin house problematic and mostly objectionable, and she really does have a mostly disapproving attitude toward people who evince those values and characteristics. But I doubt very much, despite the wishes of many readers, we will see an argument for the value of craftiness or ambition. I just don't sense that JKR has a great deal of respect for those traits.<< SSSusan: This is going to be start out perilously close to a forbidden "Me, too" post, but I'll attempt to redeem myself as I move along. I just thought this deserved comment. In the end, what we want, hope or expect from JKR isn't going to make a difference, is it, to what we actually GET? There IS tremendous concern in the fandom ? particularly amongst the adults ? over all kinds of issues surrounding Slytherin House. HOW can JKR be stereotyping this way? HOW can she be "condemning" 11-year-olds to being classed as evil when they're too young to really know who and what they and life are all about? She will "have" to show us some "good" Slytherins before she's through. Etc., etc. Now, am I one who'd like to see a lot of Slytherins stand up and be counted against Voldy & the DEs? I sure am. Am I convinced JKR *will* give us this? Not fully, no. And while I won't be surprised if JKR uses the student prejudice against Slytherins as a whole to make A Point with her readers, I'm definitely not convinced JKR will give us a whole new TAKE on Slytherin House. In fact, I think Lupinlore is really likely to be proven correct on this issue ? that JKR may well NOT particularly value the Slytherin characteristics of craftiness and ambition, particularly ambition of the "whatever it takes/watch out for yourself" variety. Lupinlore continued with what he suspects is coming: >>Thus, in the case of the "Good Slytherin," I think this will be someone who doesn't fit the Slytherin mold all that well. I doubt we will see this as someone who makes Harry realize that he has judged the values of Slytherin house unfairly, but rather someone who makes Harry realize good people can survive even in a hostile environment. The Good Slytherin will have some Slytherin characteristics -- probably that of coming from an old pureblood house. But I doubt very much, despite the wishes of many readers, we will see an argument for the value of craftiness or ambition. I just don't sense that JKR has a great deal of respect for those traits. I agree that having Draco continue in his present mode would be less intriguing -- i.e. less dramatic. However, it might also be more realistic and a better literary device. It is true that people do change -- but changes have to have some seed or foundation on which to build. What have we seen in this child that is evidence he can grow into a good man -- even one of such extraordinarily problematic goodness as Snape? Not much. He loves his parents -- which is a good trait. But that isn't much to work with.<< SSSusan: (Ooooh, love that phrase for Snape: "extraordinarily problematic goodness." That captures it for me.) Again, I think LL is correct. I've never quite been able to grasp (in spite of valiant efforts by Betsy hp) where people *see* the evidence for the likelihood of redeemed!Draco, *especially* since the different-in-tone and much-more-ominous-sounding threat against Harry we got from Draco at the end of 5th year. I think a change has *already* happened in him ? he's angry and he wants revenge and it's moved beyond schoolboy bullying & games... or so it read to me. And to me this also makes Draco's likelihood for "The Good Slytherin" much less than others. Lupinlore asked: What would be the purpose of changing Draco? It would show no one is born evil, which would be an effective message. It would show the value of redemption. But JKR already has several characters that may serve that purpose, including Percy, Snape, and Pettigrew. SSSusan: Yup, I think so, too. I suppose the problem (if one wants to classify it that way) is that of these three, only Snape is a Slytherin... and so many really want this change to happen with a *Slytherin.* My preference is also for that, whether it's Goyle, Knott, Zabini, or whomever... I just don't think Draco is very likely to fit the bill... and I won't be shocked if it's not a Slytherin JKR chooses. Might be, might not be. Siriusly Snapey Susan From alishak at spu.edu Mon Jun 27 18:30:53 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:30:53 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar (Ye Purebloods, Merlin was What!?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131540 > > Alisha wrote: I don't see how this flows logically from the > pureblood > > ideal. If the males in the family hold such prejudices, it is > > entirely possible that the females do as well. There's no way of > > knowing what would happen to a woman who chose to marry a non- > > pureblood wizard. She would probably be disowned, but that is no > > different than what happens to Tonks' mother. Narcissa Malfoy > > probably chose to marry a pureblood wizard based on her own > > prejudices not necessarily those of her family. And inversely, if > a > > wizard chose to marry a non-pureblood witch, he would also > probably > > have been disowned. It is not only the women who might have been > > pressured into marrying against their will. In order for a family > > to remain "toujours pur", both the witches and the wizards would > > have to marry only purebloods. > > > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > Yes, I though of that actually, But still, the point I was making > was about the gender friendly way everything is supposed to be > balanced, if say, you are a pureblood woman, and have to choose > between the man you love and your family..well..thats not very > gender balanced, ok so maybe thats a family problem, but I suppose > the logic I was following, the wizarding world is not 50/50 balanced > if this sort of thing is going on. And yes, I do see that the > children like Belle have been brought up and believe just as > strongly as the men, I was just making the point that not everyone > would be that way, so, their is a strong gender bias even in the > wizarding world....I think that was sorta..what I meant by that....I > think most of my post was basicly to show that even though its a > nice though that the wizarding world is sorta this balance woman man > thing, There are still just as many issues as the regular muggle > folks have. Alisha: I'm still a little confused as to why you think it would only be the women who might be forced to choose between love and family. In this situation, if a pureblood wizard fell in love with a muggleborn witch (or just a muggle for that matter), he would also be forced to make that decision. There's no indication that if a wizard married a muggleborn, their marriage would be tolerated because they are male. The idea of pureblood supremacy is not limited simply to the marriage of witches, therefore it is not necessarily gender biased. > > > > > > > Alisha wrote: > > Again, I don't see this as entirely logical. First of all, it is > > apparent that Narcissa carries at least some sway in the Malfoy > > household. It was her decision for Draco to attend Hogwart's > > instead of Durmstrang. > > Also, it's possible that Molly chose to stay home with the > > children. She seems a capable witch in her own right, I'm sure > she > > could have gotten a job if she chose to. The presence of a > > homemaker does not always indicate a patriarchal system. And to > say > > that since Arthur is the breadwinner he is the head of the house > is > > simply propagating patriarchal values. That's the argument that > > people have used for centuries to argue male superiority. Since > the > > man is the one who "works" he is the one to whom the female should > > submit. The reason that men worked, historically, was because > they > > were physiologically better suited to the work that needed to be > > done. It is natural in many animals as well for one gender to do > > specific work because they are physically better capable. (Think > of > > lionesses doing the hunting because the male lions' manes make > them > > too conspicuous for stalking prey.) > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > > I though they had those mane's because it made them look > sexy...Hay..You lion, Your not Sexy, Your lazy, you eat all the > food, and you bash my cubs around....hum..but you do have a cute > tooshie...ok, so maybe I'll hang around and raise your rotten litter > of 6 cubs...rotten man. > > Well, maybe we will see that Narssie is the boss and Lucius is just > following her orders...muwhahah. I simply though she wanted her baby > boy close to home. If that is what you meant in your reply, as, > thats the only thing I can remember really being said about > her....except the comment about she looks like shes got dung under > her nose..teehee, If that is the statment you were talking about, > That is almost like a complaint of a winny rich woman, pleading with > her husband not to send her son so far away from her. I mean, in my > mind, I'm seeing her doing a Rowena Ravenclaw putting foot down > episode that I so comically indicated. "If you send my little Draco > all the way to that school, I will never speak to you again Lucius!!" Alisha: Regardless of how she managed to sway Lucius, she still exhibited some level of power in the relationship. Lucius did eventually give in to her desires. >KarentheUnicorn: I was also not trying to say that Molly and Aurther have anything > but a loving relationship, but working and earning money is > importaint to life, obviously the Weasley's are in need of money. > The wizarding world is no different there compaired to the muggle > world. So if they are so poor and in need of money I wonder why > Molly doesn't work? I'm not complaining about it, or, saying shes > wrong, so please, I hope nobody is getting offended and saying I'm > using a male point of view..since..um..I'm a girl. I was just using > my power of observation to point out, Even though it is being said > that the wizarding world is balanced 50/50, well, their are still > examples of the same muggle system....Be it by choice or forced. Alisha: The thing is, /someone/ had to stay home with the kids. In a family as large as the Weasley's, it's only possible for one parent to work outside the home. The fact that it is Molly and not Arthur who stays home could be indicating merely that Molly prefers to stay at home. > > > Alisha wrote: > > This is only one version of the story of Merlin. When it comes to > > legends, there are no "facts", only interpretations. > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > > Meh..um...Generally, wouldn't that also be the case in > any "information" JLR might put in her books about Merlin. But, > thats just compairing a story, to a story..since..well, last I > checked..the potter universe was...under a great deal of > interpretation right now. So, anything we say about, Merline, Rowena > Ravenclaw, Salizar Slytherin, is actually, one version of our own > idea of the story, and until JKR gives us facts...I will submit that > it is all open for interpritation. > > Alisha: That's true, but the "facts" you presented about the legend of Merlin do not appear in Rowling's story, so there's no indication that they are facts in her universe. -Alisha From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 18:32:00 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:32:00 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (mild TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131541 Neri wrote: "Umm, I guess you have a perfectly reasonable and innocent reason why old Sally sneaked a XXXXX classified monster into a school? " Del replies: Go ask Hagrid. He does that all the time. He even deliberately puts his monsters in contact with the kids, which Slytherin didn't do. Neri wrote: "In the HP saga, if you're half giant or a werewolf or the son of Dark wizards or whatever, you are supposed to show in some way that you aren't bound by your unfortunate ancestry." Del replies: Who put you in charge of writing the rules of the Potterverse, Neri? Have you exercised Legilimency on JKR, that you can pretend to know what she expects of her characters? And how do you know when to put the time limit for one showing their colours? You are not JKR, Neri. You have no authority to declare what are the rules of the Potterverse. If anything, one of the main rules that JKR has alluded to is: "judge people individually, not according to who their family or friends are, or whatever particular trait they have". Neri wrote: "As you've probably realized by now, they were included so I won't be accused of skewing the statistics by taking the good Slytherins out of it. Since they're so few, they don't really prove that Slytherin house is not evil. They only prove that some good people may be found even in an evil establishment. " Del replies: I notice you conveniently avoided to mention all the neutral Slytherins, the ones we don't know much about. Let's compare your list with the Lexicon's one, shall we? I've taken the Lexicon's list, and taken out of it all the names you mentioned on your list. Those were those that were left: * Baddock, Malcolm (1994 - 2001) * Bletchley, Miles * Bole (1989 - 1995) * Davis, Tracey (witch) (1991-1998) (HPM) * Derrick (1989 - 1995) * Greengrass, Daphne (1991 - 1998) (HPM, OP31) * Higgs, Terence * Pritchard, Graham (1994 - 2001) * Pucey, Adrian (c.1989 - 1996 or 1997) * Warrington, C. (1989? - 1996) * Zabini, Blaise (1991 - 1998) Miles Bletchley, Bole, and Warrington might be construed as being not-too-nice. But the others are total unknowns. Looks like this might screw up your statistics a bit... Neri wrote: "But changing the whole role that Slytherin house, with its dogma and values, has been playing in the series would be lousy writing." Del replies: Maybe it's you who've been doing some lousy reading, because I personally have NO problem imagining that Slytherin House is in no way the block of prejudice, hatred and treachery that some paint it here. I see INDIVIDUALS in Slytherin. I don't see a House. All the Slytherins are individuals, just like all the Gryffindors, all the Ravenclaws, and all the Hufflepuffs are individuals. Expecting less diversity in Slytherin than in any of the other 3 Houses is very lousy reading IMO. Neri wrote: "But perhaps the worst news for the House-Slytherin-Isn't-Evil fans are that JKR (like Voldemort) is now in dire need of evil recruits." Del replies: Draco will possibly bring his gang to LV, just like his father did. But we know of very few people in Slytherin outside Lucius's gang who became DEs, so there is no reason to believe that many outside of Draco's gang will become DEs this time around. And may I remind you that the current Slytherin Head-of-House is anti-LV, and that the one DE who helped LV come back to life is a Gryffindor? Neri wrote: "JKR has been showing us that the roots of evil start at home and at school, and that evil is created by people and their values, not by demons and monsters. Surely this is what Slytherin house was invented for?" Del replies: Writing the Potterverse rules again, are you? Who are you to say why Slytherin House was invented? Maybe it was invented so kids would learn, through Harry, that we shouldn't take anybody else's word as to who our enemy is, and that we shouldn't condemn anyone just because they happen to be related to an enemy? Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 18:59:45 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:59:45 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131542 Lupinlore wrote: "I think the "Harry's viewpoint" argument is deployed a lot more often than it should be. We always talk about Hermione and DD being JKR's mouthpieces. But I suspect that Harry is her eyes. I think often his perceptions are JKR's perceptions." Del replies: Examples: * Snape is trying to kill Harry in PS/SS, while Quirrell is just a poor scaredy stuttering teacher. * Diary!Tom is a poor courageous orphan to whom Harry can relate. * Sirius Black is a monstruous traitor, a Muggle-killer, who wants to kill Harry too, in PoA. * Crouch!Moody is Moody in GoF. * Cedric is a shallow pretty boy in GoF. Need I go on? The number of times when Harry gets things wrong is way too high to pretend that he correctly reflects JKR's view. In fact, from experience, I now personally take the opposite stance: if Harry is so sure of something about someone, then he's probably wrong. Lupinlore wrote: "When it comes to Slytherin house, I think a lot of Harry's basic perceptions are Rowling's basic perceptions. That is, much as many readers would like it to be otherwise, she really does find the values and characteristics of Slytherin house problematic and mostly objectionable, and she really does have a mostly disapproving attitude toward people who evince those values and characteristics." Del replies: You are confusing several issues here. 1. Does JKR object to the Slytherin values? I'm not sure. Through Percy, for example, she showed that she doesn't hold ambition at any cost in high regard. However, she showed through the Twins that she doesn't have a problem with reined-in ambition, the type of ambition that pushes one to work extra-hard to achieve their dreams. Through Hermione in OoP, she seems to approve of cunning, when it is applied to good goals. And so on. 2. Regardless of what she thinks of the Slytherin values, do we know that JKR thinks of the Slytherin students as evil or even just bad or mean? This one is easy: no we don't know that. JKR has taken great pains to show us that the other 3 Houses contain many different kinds of students, including students who don't seem to embody their House's values at all. She has carefully shown us nice and not nice students in each of the 3 Houses. So assuming that she would hold a simplistic black-and-white view of her Slytherin characters seems extremely illogical to me. Lupinlore wrote: "But I doubt very much, despite the wishes of many readers, we will see an argument for the value of craftiness or ambition. I just don't sense that JKR has a great deal of respect for those traits." Del replies: Funny then, that she made those traits major qualities of Hermione's and the Twins'... Lupinlore wrote: "But it would also illustrate the real fact that you can't save everyone, and that people often tread a very easy path to damnation." Del replies: The examples of Peter Pettigrew and Regulus Black should have taught you that there is nothing easy in being a DE. It might be the easiER path for some people in some circumstances, but it is never easy. The concept that it is easy to be that evil is a very false and dangerous one IMO. Del From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 19:18:39 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:18:39 -0000 Subject: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131543 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rosered2318" wrote: > I always have Snape on the brain..... > > Taking quotes one and two together, it would seem that DD is > specifically keeping Snape from the DADA position. I think you've nailed it. Dumbledore thinks that putting Snape in the DADA position would be worse than hiring Lockhart or letting the Minister of Magic make an appointment. Hagrid's ignorance of Snape's application may be due to Dumbledore's wishing to spare Snape the embarrassment of being publicly turned down in favor of Goldilocks. So why would DD let Snape teach (I'm being very nice, I didn't put quotes around "teach".) Potions, but not DADA? Any thoughts? Amiable Dorsai From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 19:20:25 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:20:25 -0000 Subject: LINKS: Slytherin - Through the Past Darkly Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131544 Just a quick note, since we are discussing the general nature of Slytherin House and the Good Slythering. Here are a couple of recent threads that deal pretty deeply with the nature of both Slytherin House and Salazar Slytherin himself. Just thought a few people might be interested in reviewing it. Both are very long threads. From: "someoneofsomeplace" Date: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:03 am Subject: The Falling-out of the Hogwarts Four http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125951 From: "Steve" Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:51 pm Subject: Salazar & Slytherin - Quality of Qualities. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/121862 This thread does extend upward from this link, but the subject shifts slightly at this point. Repost of some old 'Good Slytherin' Discussiona- Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:48 pm Subject: Switching houses http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/93350 Indirectly touches on the 'Good Slytherin' subject. Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:00 am Subject: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/91320 Nice long thread that touches on several aspects of the latest book including the Good Slytherin. Date: Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:43 am Subject: Re: The Good Slytherin - Stringy & Weedy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/84984 Discusses who likely candidate are for the Good Slytherin. Subject line refers to the books describing one Slytherin as 'weedy' and another one as 'stringy'. Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:22 am Subject: What the Sorting Hat REALLY Said, and The Good Slytherin. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/84899 Discussion of whether Harry said he want to be Gryffindor or if he simply said 'not Slytherin'. Additional thought on the Good Slytherin. Started with a discussion of the Sorting Hat and how it works. Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:27 pm Subject: Thestrals and Slytherins http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71039 Starts as a discussion of the 'stringy' Slytherin who could see the Thestral and quickly switches to this title "Good Slytherin (Was: Re: Thestrals and Slytherins)". There are probably more 'Good Slytherin' threads, these just happen to be some I had in my notes. Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion. Steve/bboyminn From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 19:46:55 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: will we ever hear about tom riddles mum? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050627194655.10403.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131545 I am unsure if anyone has posted this before but does anyone think we will hear about tom riddles mum? was re-reading the fourth book and it did strike me as odd that we the little we know of Tom Riddles past most of it concerns his dad and I am getting kind of curious as to what drove TBTB to put tom in a muggle orphanaged... laurie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jun 27 17:53:28 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:53:28 -0000 Subject: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131546 Rosered wrote: > So these three things do not add up. Taking quotes one and two > together, it would seem that DD is specifically keeping Snape from > the DADA position. But quotes one and three directly contradict one > another. In addition, if we assume that Snape was telling the truth > about applying every year but Hagrid was wrong in quote three, what > would make DD think that Lockhart would be a more suitable candidate > than Snape? I know characters will sometimes give misleading > information, but something about this really bugs me and I can't put > my finger on what it is. Any thoughts? > > Potioncat: Hagrid doesn't always know as much as he thinks he does. Or certainly isn't correct in what he knows. Regularly isn't the same as yearly. OTOH, he may have applied yearly until Longbottom arrived. Then the potential of taking a trip to the hospital wing in a matchbox may have made potions look better. My personal, I belive so but can't prove it opinion: He isn't interested in the DADA position. He was misleading Umbridge. If nothing else, maybe he wanted her to think he wanted her job and any ill feeling he showed was envy of her job, not loyalty to DD. Potioncat From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Jun 27 18:00:53 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:00:53 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: >> > Snape is guilty of emotional abuse at times, yes. There are many > offices and other places of employment where the Snapes of the world > function. I am not discounting the severe consequences to someone > who is emotionally vulnerable. I am just saying that there are far > worse behaviors that occur everyday in our country and around the > world and we need to get rid of those first. There are many nasty > people in the world that are law abiding people. I am not defending > them, but you can't fire them all just for being nasty. Who would > run the country, after all? > > I think we are getting a bit namby pamby if we can't tolerate > Snape. I am honestly baffled by this statement, Tonks. You admit that Snape is guilty of abuse, but then say it would be namby pamby if we refuse to tolerate his abusive behavior. Are you saying that people who battle abuse and insist that abusive behavior be halted are weaklings deserving of contempt? Are you saying that emotional abuse should not be halted simply because it isn't physical abuse? Are you saying that someone who is clearly guilty should not be punished just because there are people who do worse things that cannot be punished for reasons of law or politics or practicality or ability to apprehend them? Lupinlore From amis917 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 27 18:40:02 2005 From: amis917 at hotmail.com (amis917) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:40:02 -0000 Subject: will Ginny be a prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131548 JLV: Actually Hermione says that there are two *fifth year* prefects from each house - I take this to mean that two fifth years are made prefects every year, so each house has three male and three female prefects at all times. It does not seem to be necessary to be a prefect to become Head Boy/Girl (James wasn't made a prefect in his fifth year but was Head Boy), but you can be both at the same time (like Percy). It may be that James was made a prefect in addition to Lupin, or Lupin gave up/was stripped of the honour, making it so the Head Boy is/was a prefect, but canon doesn't give us any information on this. Amie: I always thought that Lupin was prefect, but James was made Head Boy. If someone, like Percy, was a prefect and then named Head boy, I wonder if they replace them with a new prefect. JLV: The potential is there for Ginny to be a prefect, especially as she showed her mettle so well at the DoM and she hasn't made trouble like Fred and George. The only question is whether or nor there are better candidates in her year in the house. My instinct is to think that there aren't, and Mrs Weasley is going to be a very happy lady. Amie: I have to agree with you. When reading OotP I found this quote about Ginny. "Yea, size is no guarantee of power," Said George. "Look at Ginny" (US hardback, pg 100) I think this backs up that she is capable of being prefect and also may hint at her becoming a bigger player in the future. It could also have been forshadowing to her role at the MoM....but I just don't know! -Amie From jenn_ivory at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 20:09:51 2005 From: jenn_ivory at yahoo.com (jenn_ivory) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:09:51 -0000 Subject: Shades of Grey/Good Slytherins/Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131549 Hi I am a new member. I think the parallel of Hitler and Voldemort is very good. I see Slytherins as very similar to Hitler's followers. Of course, we understand that just because someone was German or even in Hitler's Party doesn't mean that they believed all of his policies. I think some Slytherins are either scared or just following the crowd. Which in my book could be just as dangerous as the people who actively believe in Voldemort. They are passively following him by not actively opposing him. Am I making sense? Jenn From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 27 20:23:32 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:23:32 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Alla: > After all, I was blessed (IMO) with not having Snape like teachers > when I was a child and even as a teen and learned just fine about > unfairness of life. > > So, I think I will find other ways to explain to my child ther > reality of life. > Pippin: I wonder if Dumbledore is concerned that lack of experience in this area might lead one to exaggerate the dangers? Rather like an over- protecting parents who are afraid that every scratch will lead to blood poisoning? Now of course, a scratch could lead to blood poisoning, but that's a worst case scenario, and it would be a shame if kids were prevented from otherwise wholesome activities because they might get a scratch. Perhaps Dumbledore is concerned that without experience, the students will grow up to put the Snapes of the world in the same category as Umbridge, so repelled by the mere thought of the damage Snape could do in a worst case scenario that they ignore all the positives. Pippin From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 27 20:54:56 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:54:56 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131551 "Tonks" wrote: > I have said before that I think > Snape has a dark sense of humor that is not understood or appreciated. Hence, > the remark about Hermione's teeth. And I think some people bend over backwards trying to find excuses for that piece of noxious slime called Severus Snape. I also think that when a child is in pain and has been seriously injured so baddly she has been hideously disfigured, and that child although extraordinarily brave has reached her limit and is near panic, and to chose that exact instant to make a joke at that very brave child's expense, well,.... that is more that just dark humor, it is very close to being unforgivable. And that's not the end of it, the last shred of any sympathy I may have had for Snape evaporated in the last pages of book 5; After all of Harry's heroism, after going through hell and despite his near suicidal depression Snape figured Harry had still not suffered enough, and so the mighty Hogwarts Potions master insulted Harry and took points from Gryffindor. The only sort of person who would do something like that is a bad man, a very very bad man, and a very small man too; there is just no other interpretation. Eggplant From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 27 20:56:47 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:56:47 -0000 Subject: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131552 > Rosered wrote: > > So these three things do not add up. Taking quotes one and two > > together, it would seem that DD is specifically keeping Snape > > from the DADA position. But quotes one and three directly > > contradict one another. In addition, if we assume that Snape > > was telling the truth about applying every year but Hagrid was > > wrong in quote three, what would make DD think that Lockhart > > would be a more suitable candidate than Snape? I know > > characters will sometimes give misleading information, but > > something about this really bugs me and I can't put > > my finger on what it is. Any thoughts? > > > Potioncat: > Hagrid doesn't always know as much as he thinks he does. Or > certainly isn't correct in what he knows. > > Regularly isn't the same as yearly. > > OTOH, he may have applied yearly until Longbottom arrived. Then > the potential of taking a trip to the hospital wing in a matchbox > may have made potions look better. > > My personal, I believe so but can't prove it opinion: He isn't > interested in the DADA position. He was misleading Umbridge. If > nothing else, maybe he wanted her to think he wanted her job and > any ill feeling he showed was envy of her job, not loyalty to DD. > > Potioncat I think Snape /does/ want to be DADA teacher and /does/ apply for the DADA position every time it's vacant ? this is not disputed in any way by JKR in the Royal Albert Hall interview quote most relevant to this discussion: "Jackson: "Professor Snape has always wanted to be Defence Against Dark Arts teacher. In book 5 he still hasn't got the job. Why does Prof Dumbledore not allow him to be Defence Against The Dark Arts teacher?" "JK Rowling: That is an excellent question and the reason is that I have to be careful what I say here. To answer it fully would give a lot away about the remaining two books. "When Prof Dumbledore took Prof Snape onto the staff and Prof Snape said "I'd like to be Prof of Defence Against the Dark Arts please" and Prof Dumbledore felt it might bring out the worst in Snape so said "I think we'll get you to teach Potions and see how you get along there"." The interesting question is *why* Dumbledore thinks that DADA will bring out the worst in Snape, and JKR indicated that this is something BIG and important to the plot as it would spoil the next two books somewhat to reveal it. Presumably the reason is related to Snape's desire to take the post on. The mind boggles. This reason will presumably explain why Lockhart (or even Umbridge) was actually a far better candidate than Snape... I dread to think what will happen if Dumbledore does die and the new head of Hogwarts lets Snape in. JLV xx From tygrene at hotmail.com Mon Jun 27 19:43:22 2005 From: tygrene at hotmail.com (guddammit) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:43:22 -0000 Subject: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131553 I always have Snape on the brain..... So why would DD let Snape teach (I'm being very nice, I didn't put quotes around "teach".) Potions, but not DADA? Howdy all. First post from a yank in France :) Sorry New York, love the French Riviera and beaches :D snapesnapesnape, a delicious character with lots to debate. The most important question that should be asked is "what is his story", no? DD trusts him to be good, but why? With those memories of an abusive childhood, and being bullied and ridiculed by the Marauders, is he good for A: proving himself (glorymonger?) B: revenge (having been hurt by Death Eaters, hence why he is in the Order) C: the goodness of his heart (yes yes, I am reaching I know...) Now, back to DADA classes. Weve seen how it's possible to conduct the classes: bookwork and practical. The bookwork, no danger really, but that practical bit... Lupin had carefully controlled situations, Lockhart no, but then pixies are not THAT dangerous. Moody cursed the students, even Harry had the students working on each other to practice. It seems to be the popular way to do it, practice on the students. Now let's imagine Snape practicing on student. Right... Okay, integrate personality A: Glorymonger with practical classes. Not too many problems actually. He might get out of hand because he is nasty. (I personally he is calculating enough and controlled emotionally- skilled occlumens, to not do anything that would awake the ire of DD.) So personality B: Revenge. That emotion would be powerful enough to make him lose control. Revenge against James by hurting Harry, or perhaps, revenge against other families of Death Eaters? Well now, Ive rambled on enough for one posting. Cheers. Tygrene From labmystc at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 21:13:49 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:13:49 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: <20050627153818.20389.qmail@web86211.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131554 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene Mikhlin wrote: > > --- John Kearns wrote: > > > Probably he is, and we just haven't seen it. > > But we have seen it. Dumbledore has drawn a very clear > line at physical harm to the students, and we've seen > that it gets him very angry at OoTP. > > By the looks of it, Dumbledore (and Hogwarts culture > in general) is significantly less sensitive to > emotional abuse, however it's defined. > > Can anyone honestly say that any emotional "abuse" > that Snape might have inflicted is worse (or even > equal) than the detention in the Forbidden Forest for > 11-year olds? McGonagall has assigned it, in case > anyone has forgotten. Chris: I can and will, from two different points of view, one from a WW point of view, and one from reality. **flips a coin**...ah heads, WW point of view first: These kids are wizards!!!!! The forbidden forest detention would have been scary yes, dangerous perhaps, but cause for permanent emotional damage to any one of these kids? I don't think so. Fear is the one emotion that we as humans seem to overcome the easiest. We are all scared of monsters, the dark, strangers, etc. etc. when we are small children, but eventually we outgrow these fears, and they have no lasting emotional damage. After the detention occurred, I'm sure Mcgonagall wrung her hands in sorrow that she had sent them out there. But she didn't know that Quirrelmort was lurking about in the trees, did she? The kids had Hagrid with them, and he is quite adept at dealing with anything that *naturally* belonged in that forest, isn't he? In hindsight, everyone can look back at the event and say it might not have been the right call, but WW parents are not going to yank their kids from school over it. Now the real world. There has been a lot of discussion on here (some very heated from what I've read) about the teaching methods of Snape, about how *good* or how *evil* this house is, or that person is. If we want to talk reality where all this is concerned, let's talk reality. I confess ingorance as to how other schools in other parts of the world discipline their students, and how other cultures respond to abusive behavior, criticism, and the treatment of their children by other adults. I do say this though. I have two daughters. If I existed in the WW, and Snape treated my daughters the way he treats students in this story, he would have an AVADA KEDAVRA with his name on it! There is no teacher in any school that my daughters are attending going to belittle them, threaten physical harm, or in any way cause them emotional stress. Piling on homework causes stress, and that's fine. Good for them in fact...teaches responsibility. But to criticize or verbally chastise a student in the presence of others is wrong. Teachers are supposed to boost a student's confidence, give them praise where it is due, and criticism and instruction where it is not. I for one do not cater to the idea that if Neville's frog had perished after being fed the potion, he would have learned a valuable lesson and tried harder next time. This is not the way to instruct a student to do better. I had my share of callous, egomaniacal, holier-than-thou teachers in school too. One of them is now a good friend of mine. They commanded respect, self-discipline, manners, and good behavior. And they got it! Not because we feared them, and not because they berated us and criticized us at every opportunity. But because they deserved it for rewarding us with the same treatment they expected. The reason the American school system is in such a shape is because the kids nowadays are little monsters before they ever enroll. Disrespecting adults, bullying others for sport, and general misbehavior...these things are the result of behaviors taught or not taught at home. Unless the child has an emotional problem there is no reason to behave this way. Draco is the perfect example...every behavior he exhibits was one taught to him by his parents. Racism and prejudice are not inborn traits, they are LEARNED! Yes, now the teachers have rules that prevent them from laying a hand on a student. But can you blame them?! You grab a child by the collar of his shirt to stop him from running in the hall...next day he brings a .45 to school and conducts target practice. This is what the teachers have to contend with nowadays. But how did that student get that way in the first place? In most cases of extreme violence in schools, the kids were either outcasts ridiculed by the other students, or they had parents that didn't give a damn, or they were emotionally unbalanced. I like the stories about violent music, and violent video games, and violent imagery from movies being the root cause. But let's be real people! I played violent video games, I listened to death metal, and I've seen the Matrix twelve times. I however, not shot up a school. Probably because I knew better. I never beat a smaller kid up, though I am a third degree black belt. Because I was taught better. I never ridiculed a fellow student, or made fun of someone because of their appearance, because I was taught better. This is the problem in our schools. These kids are not taught better! The bully, the group of jocks who gives a wedgie to a nerdy kid, the prep teen queen who makes fun of a poorer girl...these kids were not taught anything by their parents! I think throughout these books, Harry and the rest have shown incredible restraint when dealing with Snape. Yes, Harry has erupted a few times, but I would have done the same thing if I were in his shoes. And I pray...pray...pray...that those of you who have espoused Snape's teaching methods on here are not teachers in your respective areas of the world. God help all those students if you are. Chris labmystc From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 27 21:22:41 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:22:41 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin - Should we assume that S. House is not all evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131555 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: Alla: > "Are we supposed to think that Slytherin house is not all Evil simply > because there is a possibility that we have not met some of its > members yet?" Del: > I can't believe that I'm reading something as fundamentally prejudiced > as THAT, especially coming from someone who so adamantly claims to > be against prejudice... > "They are Slytherins, so they are evil." Disgusting, prejudiced, > unfounded, and unworthy of the wonderfully intricate, subtle, and > complicated world that the Potterverse is increasingly showing itself > to be. Geoff: I agree but bear in mind that Harry has been encouraged towards that line of thinking - perhaps subliminally - in what has been said about Slytherin to him in his early days of contact with the Wizarding World: '"And what are Slytherin and Hufflepuff?" "School houses. There's four. Everyone says Hufflepuff are a lot o'duffers but - " "I bet I'm in Hufflepuff," said Harry gloomily. "Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin," said Hagrid darkly. "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You- Know-Who was one."' PS "Diagon Alley" pp.61-62 UK edition) Now before you jump irately on me, I know that isn't quite what was in Alla's message but, to someone as new to the scene as Harry, it could be open to misinterpretion as meaning precisely that; hence all Slytherins are evil and lessen the chance of him seeing the possibility of "good" in the house. Hagrid has been carrying a large responsibility in inducting Harry to the world of magic and unfortunately that comment might just have laid the foundation for future problems. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 27 21:27:58 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:27:58 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Steve/bboyminn: > But I say once again, with emphasis, that even if Draco rejects the > Death Eaters, he will not suddenly become buddy-buddy with Harry. He > might become 'not bad' but that doesn't be he will be good, and it > certainly doesn't mean he will suddenly become nice. > > There is a part of me that is leaning toward 'Redeemed Draco', but > other than a distinct lack of courage and real-world experience, we > haven't seen much to support it. Perhaps, I'VE just been reading too > much Harry/Draco slash. > > Just a few thoughts. Geoff: I agree totally with your last paragraph. Looking at the previous comment to that, you see Draco as a possible Snape Mark II model? :-) From mich at ntl.sympatico.ca Mon Jun 27 20:47:56 2005 From: mich at ntl.sympatico.ca (Mich Verrier) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:47:56 -0400 Subject: Title of Book 7 (was: Shades of Grey) SPOILER? References: Message-ID: <02bf01c57b59$85868aa0$9959e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> No: HPFGUIDX 131557 Julie wrote: >> I think there are more shades of grey in everything--including >> ourselves--that most of us want to see. Which is why I hope JKR >> calls the 7th book "Harry Potter and the Shades of Grey." ;-) Amiable Dorsai wrote: Nah. The title of book seven has already been announced: "Neville Longbottom and the Misunderstood Prophecy" Mich: Hi Amiable Dorsai. Was this true? Or where you just kidding around? When you said that the seventh book will be called that? I personally think that you were having a little fun. >From Mich Verrier. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon Jun 27 21:48:15 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:48:15 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: <001301c57ace$55aa4140$a758aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131558 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Just because the current American school system is paranoid in the extreme > about holding students accountable for their actions and punishing them in > any way, does not therefore make it true that trying to control a student's > behavior or hold him accountable for his mistakes is therefore abusive. Nothing John wrote was used as a classroom discipline techniqe. Some were against students not even in Snapes class at the time! I don't have a problem with holding students accountable and neither do most of the teachers I know--regardless of what you hear about the supposedly spineless American school system. Snapes classroom abuse is personal and biting, something no teacher should use as a Classroom management technique. If you have to correct a students behavior it should be firm and objective because if you make it a personal attack, all the student focuses on is the attack and not changing behavior. > Snape is doing both of these. I think his methods can be very nasty; but I > fully believe that he is entitled to the goal of control and discipline. The idea that Snapes only recourse for classroom management is mocking his students, threatening to poison pets, and sabotaging student work is ludicrous and demonsrates a petty sadism that shouldn't be tolerated. > And I think children should be exposed to someone like Snape. The sooner > they learn that life isn't fair; that some people are mean for no reason; > that sometimes the mean ones are on your side even if they're not nice; and > that the nice people aren't always your friends--the better. It's called > reality. Most school systems and theories seem to set out to protect > children from reality, rather than give them a chance to learn to deal with > it. This point of view is just silly. So we should include a Snape-like teacher to teach what? That you should just roll over and let people with power trips walk all over you because they have authority? That mean people should just be tolerated and not confronted? That evil can be small and petty as well as grand and sweeping? Snape is a bad lesson to teach children because he is in such a superior position to them they basically have no recourse to him. They can't stand up to him, they can't confront him. He's their teacher, he holds all the cards. It doesn't surprise me at all that Neville is more scared of him than Bellatrix. He's more helpless in front of Snape than he is in front of a death eater. Bella, Neville can actually hex. Snape, he can only endure. School is there to teach skills, not painful life lessons. Those happen regardless of the kind of teachers you have. Your heart still gets broken. Your friends will betray you. You'll still have a shitty boss. You'll still have days where nothing goes right and all you want to do is lock yourself in your house and call for take- out. Teachers and school should be a safe haven from the crap of the world, not your first introduction to it. If Dumbledore really was as big on choices and lessons as he likes to say, he would use Snape to actually teach students something about confronting the corrupt and sadistic other than just playing their game. From prncssme at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 22:00:29 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:00:29 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131559 Chris: > And I pray...pray...pray...that those of you who have espoused > Snape's teaching methods on here are not teachers in your respective > areas of the world. God help all those students if you are. > > Chris > labmystc Princess Sara: Hey now! That's not fair at all! Just because I defend Snape from accusations of unprovoked abusiveness does not mean that I'm a horrible teacher. I don't agree with Snape's methods and I would never ever use them in my english classroom but I can see why he feels justified in employing them in a fictional Potions classroom. Now, can we please engage in a discussion free from character attacks? - Princess Sara, who just broke her vow to stop posting to this thread From bamf505 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 22:06:26 2005 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Clarification - Godparent Message-ID: <20050627220626.68624.qmail@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131560 Hey everyone- I'm looking for clarification on the British idea of godparent. People keep bringing up the idea that with Sirius's death, Harry needs a new legal guardian. In the US, a godparent has NO legal standing when it comes to a child, unless they are immediate family. In the US (if Sirius was not imprisoned) Harry still would have ended up with the Dursleys as blood relation outweighs 'godparent'. Godparent is more of a religious thing, or merely symbolic. It would not mean that that person becomes a child's guardian, unless it is legally spelled out in a will or such. So, my question is this - does a godparent have a legal status in the UK? What rights would Sirius have had to claim Harry? bamf, inquiringly Me t wyrd gewf ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From stephenm42 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 27 21:40:08 2005 From: stephenm42 at hotmail.com (stargzrsteve) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:40:08 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131561 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Fred Weasley > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy, describe more.) Hagrid and Maxime's son > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily's big secret is an amazing recipe for chocolate chip cookies. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character, someone DD has known for many years. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one. However he will spend more time with Luna. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Digory > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. The jobs lost in cauldron production would destroy the wizarding economy if he didn't take the class. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? If practical exams get their own OWLs, Harry will get 12. If they aren't counted separately, Harry will get 7. Predictions (0-10 points each): > 1. Hagrid and Mme Maxime will get married at the beginning of the book. Harry will be in the wedding party. > 2. Hagrid and Mme Maxime will have a son, the HBP. He will be a pure half-blood with the royalty coming from Mme Maxime's side. > 3. Ginny will reveal her animagus abilities. (Something feline) > 4. Ron will be the new Quidditch captain. Early in the year he will continue to be tormented by self-doubt, but by the end he will be writing to Viktor Krum for advice on getting Harry to take Seeking to the next level. > 5. Neville becomes a Beater on the Quidditch team. His place is to be protecting Harry by taking on Crabbe and Goyle just like he did in first year during the match against Hufflepuff. stargazer steve From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jun 27 22:13:42 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:13:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clarification - Godparent In-Reply-To: <20050627220626.68624.qmail@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004f01c57b65$7ade4eb0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 131562 So, my question is this - does a godparent have a legal status in the UK? What rights would Sirius have had to claim Harry? bamf, inquiringly Sherry now Actually, Sirius is both godfather and guardian. He calls himself Harry's guardian on several occasions. i believe the first time is in POA as they are leaving the shrieking shack and Harry and Sirius have the conversation about Harry leaving the Dursleys. Often parents will make the godparents the guardians as well. My parents did that. Lily and James must have done that as well. Interesting question, was Dumbledore breaking the law by placing Harry with the Dursleys when Sirius was the legal guardian? Sherry From prncssme at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 22:15:44 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:15:44 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131563 Tonks said: > > I think we are getting a bit namby pamby if we can't tolerate > > Snape. > Lupinlore now: > I am honestly baffled by this statement, Tonks. You admit that Snape > is guilty of abuse, but then say it would be namby pamby if we refuse > to tolerate his abusive behavior. Are you saying that people who > battle abuse and insist that abusive behavior be halted are weaklings > deserving of contempt? Are you saying that emotional abuse should not > be halted simply because it isn't physical abuse? Are you saying that > someone who is clearly guilty should not be punished just because > there are people who do worse things that cannot be punished for > reasons of law or politics or practicality or ability to apprehend > them? Princess Sara says now: I think what Tonks is saying is that compared to say, Umbridge, the problem of Snape's occasional mean remarks is relatively small. Umbridge is physically AND emotionally abusive in ways that make Snape look like a fluffy bunny of a man. While this doesn't make Snape any less of a sardonic bastard, it does throw him into perspective. Can we please stop accusing each other of supporting or endorsing abuse? I'm still not convinced that Snape IS the abusive man deserving of an AK or dismemberment but if we find out in HBP that he is that evil, I will happily reverse my opinion. But if I never go over to your side of thinking regarding Snape, it still doesn't mean I think emotionally abusing kids is a jolly good time. - Princess Sara From labmystc at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 22:21:23 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:21:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131564 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prncssme" wrote: > Chris: > > And I pray...pray...pray...that those of you who have espoused > > Snape's teaching methods on here are not teachers in your respective > > areas of the world. God help all those students if you are. > > > > Chris > > labmystc > > Princess Sara: > > Hey now! That's not fair at all! Just because I defend Snape from accusations of > unprovoked abusiveness does not mean that I'm a horrible teacher. I don't agree with > Snape's methods and I would never ever use them in my english classroom but I can see > why he feels justified in employing them in a fictional Potions classroom. > > Now, can we please engage in a discussion free from character attacks? > > - Princess Sara, who just broke her vow to stop posting to this thread Chris: I am in no way attacking your character! I used espoused as in *adopted*. You say you don't use these teaching methods so I applaud you. I am not attacking your opinion, since I can see that Snape has had problems of his own. However, I have no sympathy for anyone who takes out his problems on children. Chris labmystc From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jun 27 22:24:24 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:24:24 -0000 Subject: Title of Book 7 (was: Shades of Grey) SPOILER? In-Reply-To: <02bf01c57b59$85868aa0$9959e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131565 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mich Verrier" wrote: Julie: > >> I think there are more shades of grey in everything--including > >> ourselves--that most of us want to see. Which is why I hope JKR > >> calls the 7th book "Harry Potter and the Shades of Grey." ;-) Amiable Dorsai: > Nah. The title of book seven has already been announced: > > "Neville Longbottom and the Misunderstood Prophecy" > Mich: > Hi Amiable Dorsai. Was this true? Or where you just kidding around? When you said that the seventh book will be called that? I personally think that you were having a little fun. Geoff: Of course that was the case. The smiley dropped off the end of the message. Actually, this information is wrong. The correct title for Book 7 is "Harry Potter and the gobsmacked HPFGU members" :-) From yutu75es at yahoo.es Fri Jun 24 22:44:20 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:44:20 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clarification - Godparent References: <004f01c57b65$7ade4eb0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <00e901c5790e$4456a800$8000a8c0@casa> No: HPFGUIDX 131566 > > Sherry wrote: Interesting question, was Dumbledore breaking the law by > placing Harry with the Dursleys when Sirius was the legal guardian? Me (fridwulfa): Well, Maybe he was, but don't forget that DD thought Sirius to be the Potter's secret keeper, so he couldn't possibly leave Harry with a man who had (according to what he knew) betrayed his parents and almost got Harry killed as well. He probably thought it was a matter of time before Sirius was sent to Azkaban and, of course, he wouldn't trust Sirius with the child if he thought he wanted his godson dead. DD was just trying to protecto Harry so, if the legal guardian was a traitor, a DE and, possibly a murderer... well, where else could he take the baby to but with his relatives, blood protection or not? They were his only option. Cheers Fridwulfa ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, ms seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jun 27 22:49:02 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:49:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clarification - Godparent In-Reply-To: <00e901c5790e$4456a800$8000a8c0@casa> Message-ID: <006c01c57b6a$6a935f00$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 131567 > > Sherry wrote: Interesting question, was Dumbledore breaking the law by > placing Harry with the Dursleys when Sirius was the legal guardian? Me (fridwulfa): Well, Maybe he was, but don't forget that DD thought Sirius to be the Potter's secret keeper, so he couldn't possibly leave Harry with a man who had (according to what he knew) betrayed his parents and almost got Harry killed as well. He probably thought it was a matter of time before Sirius was sent to Azkaban and, of course, he wouldn't trust Sirius with the child if he thought he wanted his godson dead. DD was just trying to protecto Harry so, if the legal guardian was a traitor, a DE and, possibly a murderer... well, where else could he take the baby to but with his relatives, blood protection or not? They were his only option. Cheers Fridwulfa Sherry Oh of course. I know that, I was just sort of thinking out loud. One of the things i've always wondered was if Dumbledore believed in his heart that Sirius had betrayed the Potters. I doubt I'll ever have an answer to that, because it doesn't seem that it will matter to the plot. Just one of those things that crosses my mind from time to time. Sherry From yutu75es at yahoo.es Mon Jun 27 23:06:02 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:06:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clarification - Godparent References: <006c01c57b6a$6a935f00$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <00f001c57b6c$cbf9b030$8000a8c0@casa> No: HPFGUIDX 131568 > Sherry i've always wondered was if Dumbledore believed in his heart that > Sirius had betrayed the Potters. Me (fridwulfa): Don't we all? I think we'll learn more about what happened the night the Potters were killed and I think (or I should say hope) that we'll learn more about why no one suspected Wormtail and why they did suspect Lupin as the traitor, and I think we'll learn something really interesting about Sirius that'll make his "betrayal" more plausible. Remember DD offered to be the Potter's SK, that makes me think he didn't really trust Sirius. They knew there was a traitor among them, so... Why not Sirius? I bet DD had seen enough double agents, spies, and traitors in his days not to trust ANYone. Cheers, Fridwulfa ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, ms seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 27 23:28:58 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:28:58 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131569 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > Snape is a bad lesson to teach children because he is in such a > superior position to them they basically have no recourse to him. > They can't stand up to him, they can't confront him. He's their > teacher, he holds all the cards. It doesn't surprise me at all that > Neville is more scared of him than Bellatrix. He's more helpless in > front of Snape than he is in front of a death eater. Bella, Neville > can actually hex. Snape, he can only endure. Pippin: ::blinks:: I think you're exaggerating. Snape has been hexed three times by Harry and once each by Ron and Hermione. So far, none of them have got so much as a nosebleed in return. Not even a detention. What is your canon for saying that Neville has no recourse? . As far as we know, Neville has never complained to any adult in authority, and neither has Harry. Hagrid doesn't count, since at that point Hagrid was only the gamekeeper. JKR was asked what to do about real life bullies and her answer was, tell someone, and keep telling someone until you get help. So far, neither Harry nor Neville has followed her excellent advice, and I don't expect they will get any help until they do. Pippin From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 27 23:28:20 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:28:20 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131570 >>Lupinlore: >But I doubt very much, despite the wishes of many readers, we will see an argument for the value of craftiness or ambition. I just don't sense that JKR has a great deal of respect for those traits.< >>SSSusan: >In the end, what we want, hope or expect from JKR isn't going to make a difference, is it, to what we actually GET?< >And while I won't be surprised if JKR uses the student prejudice against Slytherins as a whole to make A Point with her readers, I'm definitely not convinced JKR will give us a whole new TAKE on Slytherin House. In fact, I think Lupinlore is really likely to be proven correct on this issue ? that JKR may well NOT particularly value the Slytherin characteristics of craftiness and ambition, particularly ambition of the "whatever it takes/watch out for yourself" variety.< Betsy Hp: The thing is, JKR *has* shown that she approves of cunning, shrewdness and ambition. Just about all of her heroes evidence such skills. Harry is *constantly* manipulating the Dursleys. Hermione has black-mailed Skeeter and out-thought Umbridge with amazing shrewdness. Harry is highly ambitious on the quidditch pitch, and Hermione is probably one of the most ambitious witches currently attending Hogwarts. And my goodness, Dumbledore is crafty enough to win praise from a Slytherin! HOWEVER, I do think JKR feels that those skills need to be tempered by a certain amount of bravery and chivalry (for want of a better word). There's a reason that the good Slytherins of past generations have a Gryffindor to lead them. Niguellus is cool, but he needs a Dumbledore to keep him in line. Snape too, benefits from Dumbledore's leadership (and may well need Lupin to prevent his early demise). The good Slytherin of Harry's generation will, I think, need to follow Harry's lead, allow Harry's Gryffindor traits to keep his (or her) Slytherin traits in line. I have a sneaking suspision that JKR feels a good person has traits from all four of the Hogwarts houses. Bravery, intelligence, a good work ethic, and yes some measure of cunning and ambition, create a well balanced person. And an army made up of those four traits would be very formidable indeed. In fact, IMO part of CoS was to show Harry that, as long as he let his Gryffindor side take lead, the Slytherin side of himself was a necessary and good part of him too. Dumbledore specifically lists Harry's Slytherin traits in a positive way while assuring Harry that he was indeed a Gryffindor. >>Lupinlore: >Thus, in the case of the "Good Slytherin," I think this will be someone who doesn't fit the Slytherin mold all that well. I doubt we will see this as someone who makes Harry realize that he has judged the values of Slytherin house unfairly, but rather someone who makes Harry realize good people can survive even in a hostile environment.< Betsy Hp: The thing that makes me uncomfortable with that sort of thinking is the prejudice it encourages. It smacks too much of the "some Jews may want to convert!" type thinking. And again, it demands that we accept that for hundreds of years a hot-bed of evil has been allowed to fester at Hogwarts, which strikes me as highly illogical. >>SSSusan: >Again, I think LL is correct. I've never quite been able to grasp (in spite of valiant efforts by Betsy hp) where people *see* the evidence for the likelihood of redeemed!Draco, *especially* since the different-in-tone and much-more-ominous-sounding threat against Harry we got from Draco at the end of 5th year. I think a change has *already* happened in him ? he's angry and he wants revenge and it's moved beyond schoolboy bullying & games... or so it read to me. And to me this also makes Draco's likelihood for "The Good Slytherin" much less than others.< Betsy Hp: Well, if at first you don't succeed.... Part of the reason I have hopes for Draco is that he strikes me as such a lonely little boy. He spent most of PS/SS trying desperately to win Harry's friendship and failing rather spectacularly. It's interesting to me that he was the only character to try and befriend Harry *before* realizing who Harry was. I'd love it if Draco finally succeeded and won Harry as a friend. (And I do think that if it happens, he and Harry could become friends.) What keeps the hope alive is JKR's failure to really push Draco over the line into total evil land. He's been truly obnoxious to Harry and friends, and he's said some incredibly hateful things to Hermione (at his father's bidding JKR has very carefully pointed out), but he hasn't hurt anyone and in fact he's often provided (completely by mistake, I think) vital pieces of information to Harry. At this point in the game, if Draco did decide to come on board he'd have very little to make-up for, IMO. There have also been textual hints, I think. In OotP we learned that a character could be a totally obnoxious and cruel little bully and still choose the good side in the end (James). We learned that a character could be raised in an intensely bigoted family that they adored and still be repulsed by Voldemort (Regulus). And we were told that sixteen is an age when life altering choices can be made (James and Sirius, possibly Regulus and Snape). Then of course, there's the neon flashing sign in the Sorting Hat's Song chapter in OotP where Harry tempts the gods with his flippent, "Friends with Slytherin? Never!" remark while looking Right. At. Draco. Do I smell foreshadowing? Oh yes I do! Throughout OotP Draco treated the changes going on at Hogwarts as some sort of lark. He sucked up to Umbridge to gain access to the quidditch pitch, he joined the IS to make life difficult for Harry, but he didn't really see, IMO, that things were getting a whole lot more serious. It wasn't until his father landed in Azkaban that things stopped being a school-boy game for him, I think. His demeanor, when he confronts Harry on the stairway at the end of OotP is like nothing we've seen from Draco before. He refers to his father as Dad, he's quiet rather than declaiming. Draco had his father on a very high pedestal and the end of OotP rocked the foundations of Draco's world. I think he's going to go through some major changes in the upcoming book. Where those changes will lead him, I can't wait to find out. >>Lupinlore asked: >What would be the purpose of changing Draco? It would show no one is born evil, which would be an effective message. It would show the value of redemption. But JKR already has several characters that may serve that purpose, including Percy, Snape, and Pettigrew.< >>SSSusan: >Yup, I think so, too. I suppose the problem (if one wants to classify it that way) is that of these three, only Snape is a Slytherin... and so many really want this change to happen with a *Slytherin.* My preference is also for that, whether it's Goyle, Knott, Zabini, or whomever... I just don't think Draco is very likely to fit the bill... and I won't be shocked if it's not a Slytherin JKR chooses. Might be, might not be.< Betsy Hp: I for one will be *hugely* shocked, and majorly disappointed if JKR lets the series end with Harry *still* thinking all Slytherins are evil by default. It's such a message of bigotry and prejudice... I seriously equate it with judging someone by a religion. "They may seem nice, but they're *Catholic* you know." It just doesn't seem to fit with the grand scheme of things. Though, I don't really equate the "good Slytherin" with redemption anyway. I see it as being more about *Harry* than the Slytherins. It's Harry who's been raised to hate all Slytherins, so I think it's Harry who will need to witness something that shakes up his current world-view. Here's an analogy: If I hate all Spanish people, it's not Spain or Spaniards that need to change, it's my own view of that country. I see Harry's view of Slytherin in a somewhat similar light. And in that sense, I think Draco is *perfect* for the good Slytherin role, because to Harry, Draco *is* Slytherin. Of course, if Draco chooses the wrong path (because I'm hopeful, but not certain) than it will need to be another Slytherin who is *very* Slytherin to serve that role. Again, anyone coming out of that house saying "oh my house is so terrible, please take me under your wing oh great and kind Harry Potter" leads us right back to the Jew or Catholic converting "You're right! My religion *is* evil!" or the Spaniard rejecting his country "You're right! My country-men *are* evil!" Which I don't think is the message JKR is trying to send. I hope. Betsy Hp From juli17 at aol.com Tue Jun 28 00:09:46 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:09:46 EDT Subject: Shades of Grey/Good Slytherin Message-ID: <88.2991760a.2ff1ef4a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131571 > Alla: > > Juli, I of course can speak for myself only, but it is not that I > see characters in JKR's world to be black and while, but I do think > that JKR beliefs system is much less grey than many fans tend to > think. I am prepared to eat my words, of course. > > I asked that question earlier, but I will ask it again. > > Do you have any doubt that Dumbledore's side is GOOD side and > Voldemort's side is BAD side? > Now, sure characters who inhabit both sides could be grey, but I do > believe that lines are drawn quite clearly and for example > philosophy > of "pureblood" superiority is drawn as philosophy of bad guys. > Julie says: I have no doubt DD is on the good side and Voldy is on the bad side. And the lines are drawn quite clearly on the issue of pureblood superiority. I just don't think it's as clear who's truly on each side of that line. And I suspect many (probably including a number of Slytherins) haven't yet chosen a side of the line. After all, the war is just starting, and siding with Umbridge at school was pretty much unrelated to supporting a full takeover of the WW by Voldy--and unrelated to pureblood superiority I think (correct me if Umbridge espoused pureblood superiority because I don't really recall it). I do think we'll get a better idea of who is truly on each side in HBP. And while JKR is certainly within her rights to keep painting Slytherin house with a two-dimensional brush of irredeemable evil, I hope she doesn't, because I think it will diminish the series and her theme of one's choices trumping one's environment. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Tue Jun 28 00:26:15 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:26:15 EDT Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) Message-ID: <9b.625cb517.2ff1f327@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131572 Tonks wrote: > I have said before that I think Snape has a dark sense of humor that > is not understood or appreciated. Hence, the remark about > Hermione's teeth. "I don't see any difference" can mean "it is not > all that bad" and a reassuring statement. So it is a matter of > opinion. Hermione was not destroyed by it, and some of us reader > saw it as a bit of humor. Julie says: I'm more than willing to give Snape some benefit of the doubt, considering how much we still don't know about him. But I can't see his "I don't see any difference" being in any sense meant as reassuring. True, Hermoine wasn't destroyed by it, but I'm pretty sure Snape took the opportunity to knock Hermoine down a peg or two in a very mean way. I envision Snape meeting Dumbledore later in a corridor, and Dumbledore giving him a penetrating look, shaking his head once, and saying quietly, "Really, Severus, I expected better of you." Then departing silently, leaving Severus behind to consider his words. Because I don't think Dumbledore is blind to Snape's meanness, nor willing to let it completely pass. Of course, we'll never know what Dumbledore and Snape say to each other in private, because of the limitation of seeing virtually everything through Harry's eyes, but I still have my theories! Julie --who considered last night the concept of many years passing and the Harry Potter series becoming a well-deserved classic-- at which point a future Gregory MacGuire might decide to give said classic series a new spin, a la "Wicked" or "Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister," wherein Snape finally has *his* say! ;-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 00:46:10 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:46:10 -0000 Subject: Shades of Grey/Good Slytherins/Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenn_ivory" wrote: > Hi I am a new member. I think the parallel of Hitler and Voldemort is very good. I see Slytherins as very similar to Hitler's followers. Of course, we understand that just because someone was German or even in Hitler's Party doesn't mean that they believed all of his policies. I think some Slytherins are either scared or just following the crowd. Which in my book could be just as dangerous as the people who actively believe in Voldemort. They are passively following him by not actively opposing him. Am I making sense? Welcome Jenn! I agree pretty much with you, I believe most Slytherins are just too afraid to act against their house. Since they are not against LV, then they are with him, is that what you're saying? Either you're with me or against me? But how is being quiet or laying low equal to being an active LV supporter? I think thwy just aren't quite sure on how to act, but maybe now they'll start supporting DD, and perhaps even join the DA with Harry. I've always believed that most Slytherins are good, it's just more exciting to write about the evil ones, there really can't be a war if everyone's on the same side ;) I'd like it if Theodore Nott would rebel against his DE dad and become friends with Harry. Juli From kking0731 at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 01:25:07 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:25:07 -0000 Subject: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131574 JLV: The interesting question is *why* Dumbledore thinks that DADA will bring out the worst in Snape, and JKR indicated that this is something BIG and important to the plot as it would spoil the next two books somewhat to reveal it. Presumably the reason is related to Snape's desire to take the post on. The mind boggles. Snow: Is that realllllly why Dumbledore does not appoint Snape to teach the DADA class, because he thinks that it will bring out the worst in Snape? If that is true then why does Dumbledore trust Snape? Why is it Dumbledore will trust Snape to teach at the school at all Or be a member of the OOP Or teach Harry Occlumency (if "it would bring out the worst in Snape") but He wont let him teach DADA? Does that make sense; it's an oxymoron to me. Dumbledore has trusted Snape with much more than a mere DADA position. But what if the DADA position is really jinxed as proposed by Percy to Harry in the first book; maybe Dumbledore is actually saving Snape from the jinx on the position. Now, not that too many people like my perception, but I feel that James was the DADA teacher up until the time he had to go into hiding at Godric's Hollow and put a jinx on the position until what time he either came back or Voldemort was destroyed for sure. What better way to ensure the position that could make or break the students that would be taught this subject (including his son)? Remember: "And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and James- whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry- always hated the Dark Arts." OOP pg. 670 James hated the Dark Arts, if you hate something wouldn't you want to be the best at combating it defense of it? (Yes, no matter what you might hear Harry about your dad being the DADA teacher, he always hated Dark Arts) If as some believe, I myself do, that Snape traded sides and came to Dumbledore with information of who Snape believed to be the traitor along with the prophecy discussion that Voldemort heard and his intentions on baby Harry. James was suggested to go into hiding by Dumbledore as a precaution that Snape indeed was telling the truth and had valuable information. James only went halfway with this suggested safeguard and went into hiding as proposed. (But as Snape has so kindly reminded Harry in the Shrieking Shack; "You,d have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black " POA pg. 361) James didn't trust Snape or his opinion (of Sirius as the traitor) to the degree Dumbledore does and entrusted Sirius with not only his life but that of his wife and son. James also was aware that Snape craved the Dark Arts and if this was a trap of some kind, that Dumbledore had fallen for, Snape may try to steer the children of Hogwarts the wrong way by applying to the position that just opened up by his unwilling sabbatical. James was faced with a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't situation. On one hand he has a long lasting loathing for Snape and his Dark Arts and spying on the Marauders regime; and on the other he has a faithful headmaster who is suggesting to James that he needs to trust his former nemesis. Now, if James had held the former position at the school of being the Defence Against the dark arts teacher wouldn't he have done something in the way of a jinx to ensure the safety of the position and its students in his absence? If Dumbledore was aware, or became aware, of what James may have done, would he permit this jinxed position to be appointed to Snape for Snape's own welfare? Percy was aware that the position was jinxed, why wouldn't Dumbledore be aware of the same? Usual disclaimer, JMO Snow (Mom and brother in the hospital with heart problems, so if you respond and I don't get back to you, I apologize but I will try `cause this is one of my favorite theories) From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 02:07:23 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:07:23 -0000 Subject: will we ever hear about tom riddles mum? In-Reply-To: <20050627194655.10403.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131575 laurie goudge I am unsure if anyone has posted this before but does anyone think we will hear about tom riddles mum? was re-reading the fourth book and it did strike me as odd that we the little we know of Tom Riddles past most of it concerns his dad and I am getting kind of curious as to what drove TBTB to put tom in a muggle orphanage... tinglinger I always felt that the first chapter of GOF was the most hedged and uncertain chapter in the series. Riddle's mother will be VERY important in the storyline, with her role paralleling Lily's. Just as Harry will be used by Dumbledore as a weapon to ultimately defeat the Dark Wizard Voldemort, so Tom Riddle will be revealed as having served the same function in helping Dumbledore defeat the Dark Wizard Gindelwald in 1945. However, Dumbledore ultimately failed in that Riddle later chose the dark path to become a wizard more evil than Grindelwald. This would explain why Dumbledore tells Harry that his choices are more important than his abilities. Dumbledore is hoping that Harry will be able to defeat VOldemort without going down the dark path himself. tinglinger so many theories so little time .... summaries and polls to follow in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 02:50:38 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:50:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131576 >>Betsy Hp: > Okay, I'll bite. But first I have to ask, what abusive methods?<< > >>John K: > > Perhaps when you wonder about abusive methods you are thinking of > physical abuse, which of course Snape does not use. However, > psychological and emotional abuse is just as serious. > > He really is a horrible person who has no business being around > children. I suppose Dumbledore has his reasons.<< Betsy Hp: Snape does have the market on cruel wit. I do agree with that. I think where the disagreements come in are on the degree of harm we think those verbal attacks and threats do to the children in his classroom. I happen to think that Snape doesn't really harm the kids all that much. And I think he does a good job teaching them potions. I'm not a parent, but I'll try to imagine how I'd react if I was Hermione's or Harry's or Neville's mom. Hermione is easy. I'd do nothing. She's doing a great job in potions, and while the remark about her teeth was unkind, Snape didn't stop her from getting help. And Hermione *does* have a bad habit of answering questions without being called on. Plus, Hermione seems like the kind of girl who's usually *loved* by adults around her. It's good practice for her to deal with a demanding and not very easily pleased teacher. I'd probably make sure she wasn't internalizing any of Snape's snarks, but frankly, I don't think she is. With Harry I'll ignore the personal aspect (the enmity between his father and Snape is it's own special thing). Again, I don't think I'd complain to the Headmaster about Snape. Harry hates Snape, and dislikes potions, but it doesn't seem to affect the rest of his life. (Harry doesn't *dwell* on Snape -- he doesn't have nightmares, etc.) I'd probably have a similar talk with Harry that my dad had with me when I complained about mean and unfair teachers. The whole, there are mean and unfair people in the world and it's best to learn how to deal with them, chat. Other than the one time Harry's potion fell (or was dropped) Snape has graded Harry fairly, plus he's saved his life a couple of times. So all in all, I don't see anything I as a parent would need to go to the school about. Neville is harder. There appears to be some sort of learning disability going on. And it's not just in potions. IIRC, Neville struggles in all of his classes except for Herbology. As a parent I think his fuzzy memory and lack of concentration *would* worry me, and I feel like I'd want to consult with all of his teachers -- get their suggestions, etc. Then there's the fact that Neville is so scared of Snape. Would I talk to Snape and/or Dumbledore about this? Would I talk to Neville? I know I'd do *something*, but I don't think it would involve storming into the school and throwing down with Snape. (But my folks are Canadian, so there's this huge pressure to keep things "civilized". ) Does Neville even *tell* his grandmother about his problems with Snape? Is she aware of his scholastic difficulties? Weirdly enough I think Neville's grandmother would *approve* of Snape's methods. After all, his family tried to scare some magic out of him, so I can see them agreeing that trying to scare some learning into him is an acceptable teaching practice. If I was Neville's mom I don't think I'd be satisfied with that, but I don't think I'd be calling for Snape's head. I *would* probably call for a parent/teacher meeting. (Which doesn't seem to be something done in the WW.) Betsy Hp From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 03:12:59 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050628031259.46284.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131577 --- snow15145 wrote: ...edited... > > James was faced with a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't situation. On one hand he has a long lasting loathing for Snape and his Dark Arts and spying on the Marauders regime; and on the other he has a faithful headmaster who is suggesting to James that he needs to trust his former nemesis. Now, if James had held the former position at the school of being the Defence Against the dark arts teacher wouldn't he have done something in the way of a jinx to ensure the safety of the position and its students in his absence? Juli: I don't understand, in what way could a jinx on the DADA position could ensure the safety of the students? I mean, why would the children remain safe if they aren't taught DADA? It seems like a paradox to me: James wanted Harry to be safe, so that's why he wanted to teach DADA, right? then he dies, but James put a jinx on the position so no teacher could remain over a year, But if a good teacher (like Remus or even Crouch!Moody) couldn't last a year, then how could the kids learn to defend themselves? The jinx may be useful when there are bad teachers like Quirell, Umbridge or (I forgot his name, the CoS DADA teacher), but hurtful in the case of a good teacher. > > If Dumbledore was aware, or became aware, of what James may have done, would he permit this jinxed position to be appointed to Snape for Snape's own welfare? Percy was aware that the position was jinxed, why wouldn't Dumbledore be aware of the same? So how does exactly this Jinx work? The teacher only remains as such for a year? He dies sometimes soon? or becomes insane? I can't see anything in common with all the DADA teachers except that they don't last over a year. If this jinx is that they only last a year as DADA teacher, then couldn't Snape take back his Potions position afterwards? I think the reason why DD doesn't want Snape to teach DADA is that his cover will be blown: He *can't* teach DADA to the DE's kids, cause they'd know that he was gone to the other side; he can't teach the Dark Arts either cause DD needs them to learn DADA, so really he's got no choice but to remain where he is, unless he wanted to let LV know he was working with Dumbledore, which I'm sure he doesn't. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maliksthong at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 03:18:40 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:18:40 -0000 Subject: Lifespans? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131578 Ok so DD is like 150 right? (But Harry doesn't know this yet.) And is this possibility of lifespan different for those who are half- blooded, or is it all wizards that have this longevity? Also, can a phoenix ever die? I just got that newt scamander book and it said they have (i'm not quoting) an extensive lifespan so do they ever die, or do they just keep existing? Chys From maliksthong at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 03:20:51 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:20:51 -0000 Subject: Title of Book 7 (was: Shades of Grey) SPOILER? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131579 > Geoff: > Of course that was the case. The smiley dropped off the end of the > message. > > Actually, this information is wrong. > > The correct title for Book 7 is "Harry Potter and the gobsmacked > HPFGU members" > :-) Actually, I heard it was: 'Harry Potter and the Droobles Factory!' You know. ^_^; Chys From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 03:29:41 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:29:41 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar (Ye Purebloods, Merlin was What!?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131580 > > Alisha wrote: > I'm still a little confused as to why you think it would only be the > women who might be forced to choose between love and family. In > this situation, if a pureblood wizard fell in love with a muggleborn > witch (or just a muggle for that matter), he would also be forced to > make that decision. There's no indication that if a wizard married > a muggleborn, their marriage would be tolerated because they are > male. The idea of pureblood supremacy is not limited simply to the > marriage of witches, therefore it is not necessarily gender biased. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Can't argue with you very much there, I suppose I am more apt to consider the female point of view, being a female. Though, generally, I tend to see boy's as wanting to be like their fathers, more so than I see girls wanting to be like their mothers, ok, so, I suppose one can aruge very much with me on that...but....I tend to take that point of view from my own family. My mother is one of 10 children, and my example comes from those aunts and uncles, while most of the men wanted to be like grandpa, none of the women desired to just be a stay at home mom, like grandma was. So, maybe I shouldn't be using my own family as a reference. I was also just considering how much Draco appears to want to be like his father....and was using them as the pureblood perfection family. But, we really haven't seen his mother much yet to know what she things. The only scene I remember is the quiddich scene, and she didn't seem to be to thrilled to be there....did she ever even say anything at all???? I don't even remember her talking??? Meh, I am also, thinking more along the lines of an adult, and giving the adults qualities I would think they might have, if, the book was an adult book, instead of a children's book. I seriously don't think JKR is going to go into areas that would concern the things we are talking about, at least not to the degree to what we are talking about, or, what I'm thinking, so, basicly the point I think I'm trying to make is...really, meaningless since, it is a children's book and not an adult book. > > Alisha: > Regardless of how she managed to sway Lucius, she still exhibited > some level of power in the relationship. Lucius did eventually give > in to her desires. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Ah, so, I think you are saying, it does not matter how or why she has the power, just the fact that she has it is enough. Meh...thats the trouble with power though, one minute you got it, next your hiding in a snake hole somewhere. Though, I sorta was thinking, there may be more reasons why Draco is at Hogwarts than, mummy's wish for Draco to be at Hogwarts and complaine she didn't want her baby so far away. Cause, if he was not their, what little blond kid would Harry have as a winny little enemy. Has a feeling Daddy likes having Draco their, to write letters to tell daddy whats going on. Cause, I have a feeling, he trusts his son to tell him everything....doesn't feel so sure about Snape. > > Alisha: > That's true, but the "facts" you presented about the legend of > Merlin do not appear in Rowling's story, so there's no indication > that they are facts in her universe. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Meh, well, I don't know all the Merlin legends...meh...I was basicly getting it from my own head of how I remembered it as the only one I knew...and um...I though I said it didn't apear in the HP universe??? what did I say...hum...for that matter..what were we talking about... Oh yea..gender bias...hum....Well, one person who might not have to worry to much about Gender bias is JKR...she just has to worry about US Adult Fan's picking her Book apart and looking for adult topics in a childrens book, that we can argue about. So...its still open for debate I suppose, is there gender bias in the Wizardin World....hum...I'll say yes, That doesn't mean everyone is that way, I think we are both trying to be to black and white here. I think there are many who are bias, be it gender or otherwise, so I don't see JKR making a perfect world where women and men are equal, I see a world where some people are trying to do the right thing..and some people are trying to do bad things...and some people that don't know what the hell is going on. So, I suppose I was just trying to point out that in some cases there is gender bias, not that the whole wizarding world is screwed up..though..I can debate you on that to...I think its just as screwed as the muggle world. KarentheUnicorn From jmkearns at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 03:13:25 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:13:25 -0000 Subject: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131581 > JLV: > I think Snape /does/ want to be DADA teacher and /does/ apply for > the DADA position every time it's vacant ? this is not disputed in > any way by JKR in the Royal Albert Hall interview quote most > relevant to this discussion: The interesting question is *why* Dumbledore thinks that DADA will > bring out the worst in Snape, and JKR indicated that this is > something BIG and important to the plot as it would spoil the next > two books somewhat to reveal it. Presumably the reason is related > to Snape's desire to take the post on. The mind boggles. John K: Sorry, that was a lot to clip in. I did not become a HP fan until after the fifth book was already out, and so in my first reading I read all five books at once. I have a theory that I think was how I originally made sense of the situation when I read the books. Let's assume for a minute that Snape is a double spy; both Dumbledore and Voldemort think he's on their respective sides. This is, I think, probably the most widely held theory regarding Snape. Now, look at the perspectives of Voldemort and Dumbledore in this teaching situation. Voldemort: "I want my minion to be DADA teacher because then my enemies won't be trained to fight me and/or I'll be able to recruit followers." After all, the trio has remarked that they learned nothing from Quirrell. Now Dumbledore: "I don't want our double agent to be put in the position Voldemort wants, even if I trust him completely, because this will put him into some very sticky situations (deciding what to teach/not to teach and to whom... remember Drumstang's curriculum) and he has quite enough of those to be going on with as it is." Thus, I always assumed that Snape regularly applied for the post to appease Voldemort, with the mutual understanding that Dumbledore wouldn't give it to him because it would force him to walk an even thinner tightrope. And though he doesn't share this part with Snape, the fact that Dumbledore probably knows of the students' fears of Snape, and the fact that he seems to consider DADA the most important class in Hogwarts, probably had something to do with it too. In other words, it would bring out the 'worst' in Snape not becuase he would become an even nastier teacher (though that may be part of the reason as well), but because it would be the worst situation Dumbledore could put him in on a daily basis. Bring out his connection to Voldemort, perhaps? I can't make this fit JKR's quote very well, though I'm sure somebody can as it makes sense in my head. Does this make sense or am I just making up senseless rationales? John K From aliasnance at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 03:35:14 2005 From: aliasnance at yahoo.com (aliasnance) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:35:14 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131582 I have been lurking for a while now. After re-reading all five books in anticipation for Book Six, thought I would have a go at the predictions contest. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? As Harry always loses those people who have became surrogate parents to him, Molly Weasley & Remus Lupin. Lupin will die because of Pettigrew's silver hand. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Trevor, Neville's toad. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily invented whatever gave the Potters the fortune they left to Harry - possibly Drooble's gum. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape will finally get the position, as the WW is now at war, & Dumbledore wants someone qualified to teach it. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? It will be Susan Bones or Eloise Midgen, now that her acne has cleared up. There will be a bit of riff in his friendships though, as he spends more time with Luna & Hermione doesn't like to be around her. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Tiberius Ogden 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve from the Department of Mysteries. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, but he will now hate DADA. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, because there will be a new Potions teacher, McCleggan, the Old Lion guy. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? If practical exams get their own OWLs, Harry will get 12. If they aren't counted separately, Harry will get 7. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Harry will get the other mirror to Sirius beyond the veil, & he will be able to communicate with him & with his parents. 2. The Centaur population has been decimated by Grawp, so it is safe for Firenze to go back into the Forbidden Forest. We'll see female Centaurs in this book. (They have to be able to repopulate.) 3. Neville's mom is able to communicate this book, and there will be a potion using Drooble's Gum to help others like her. 4. Ginny will become a prefect. 5. Dumbledore will ask Harry to continue Dumbledore's Army, but he will have to open it up to the Slytherins, thus going along with the Sorting Hat's song in OOTP. Also, we will learn more about Theodore Nott & Blaise Zabini. 6. Grawp becomes more civilized, & assists Hagrid in his duties. This will be the wildest year for Care of Magical Creatures class. 7. The new Minister for Magic will give house elves & goblins more "rights" than they have had before, which infuriates the pure blood wizards. 8. Neville finds out about the prophecy & is convinced he is the one to defeat Voldemort. He will die, but his grandmother will finally be proud of him. He will do outstanding magic this year, as he will have his own wand. Nance, who is very happy Book Six will come out two days before her birthday. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jun 28 04:32:30 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:32:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch Captain (was Re: Will Ginny be a prefect?) Message-ID: <87.2a6da7ee.2ff22cde@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131583 In a message dated 6/27/2005 7:28:09 AM Central Standard Time, jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk writes: The obvious choice for captain is Harry (as star player and longest serving member), Actually Katie Bell is the longest serving player on the team. She was already there when Harry joined in his first year. Oliver Wood left after Harry's 3rd year. Fred, George, Angelina and Alicia are left (or were leaving) at the end of Harry's 5th year. Leaving Katie Bell as the Senior player left from Harry's 1st year. For that reason alone I think that Katie will get it. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 05:03:04 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:03:04 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prncssme" wrote: > > Lupinlore said: > > Are you saying that people who battle abuse and insist that abusive behavior be halted are weaklings deserving of contempt? (snip)> > Princess Sara said: > I think what Tonks is saying is that compared to say, Umbridge, the problem of Snape's occasional mean remarks is relatively small. Umbridge is physically AND emotionally abusive in ways that make Snape look like a fluffy bunny of a man. (snip)> > Can we please stop accusing each other of supporting or endorsing abuse? Tonks: Thank you Princess Sara. I especially like thinking of Snape as a fluffy bunny. ;-) Lupinlore I know that you love to argue for the fun of it. Of course I, and I am sure everyone else on both sides of this debate, do not condone abuse of any kind. That goes without saying, IMO. What I am arguing is that Snape fits (as some say) in the *shades of gray area*. I don't know anything about the modern U.S. school system and what the rules are there. And since Harry Potter does not attend a U.S. school, I do not think that information is relevant anyway. I am thinking about when I was a child and life in general. Even very nasty people who do seriously emotional abuse (think Umbridge) are not prosecuted for it because as far as I am aware it is not against the law anywhere (WW, MW, RW). Physical abuse is against the law in our RW, but I am not aware of emotional abuse being so. I suspect that is would be hard to prove. What is emotionally abusive to one may not be to someone else. (Does that mean that it is OK to be like Umbridge, of course not.) When I say that Snape is sometimes emotionally abusive I am thinking of someone like Neville. Neville is not your typical child. He grew up in a negative environment at home as far as I can tell. His grandmother doesn't seem like the nurturing type. And Neville seems especially sensitive. When he was younger, you could probably just look at him crossways and he would burst into tears. Yes, it would be nice if Neville had a loving nurturing teacher, but it has been my experience that those types of teachers are rare. And very rare once you get past the 3rd or 4th grade or so. By then you are expected to be tougher. Some like Neville are not. I understand that. Some are like Neville their whole life. Does that mean that when they get out into the real world and have a job and a jack s for a manager that the manager should be fired? My answer to that would be yes. But does that happen?? Very, very rarely and when it does it is because they found some other way to hang them. In the ideal world we would all be nice, kind, caring and loving people. But we are not. Even caring people say and do stupid things at times without realizing the impact it might have on someone else. The best place for the Nevilles of the world to learn to deal with emotionally abusive people is when they have supportive friends to help them and at an age when learning interpersonal relations is easier. If he is surrounded only by loving and nurturing teachers during his whole school career, then he is going to be in for an even ruder shock when he gets out into the real world. And when he gets out into the real world his school friends will be gone and he will have no skills to cope and could become one of those who end up putting a gun to his head. That is an extreme thought perhaps, but it can and does happen. I am not saying that one should go out of their way to hire nasty teachers. Basically what I am saying is that on a scale of one to ten with one being Molly and ten being Umbridge, I think that Snape is about a 5. And a 5 is OK. (I think that very few of us are a one on any regular basis. Most of us are probably a 4.) So Snape at a 5 is strict, no nonsense, with a bit of sarcastic wit perhaps. And most of the kids can handle it. And with a little help so can Neville. One final thing. Remember how the rest of the staff responded to Umbridge? Then think of how they interact with Snape. If Snape was really all that bad don't you think that we would see the rest of the staff treating him the same as they do Umbridge? But they don't. And on this point, I rest my case. Tonks_op From kking0731 at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 05:33:01 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:33:01 -0000 Subject: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: <20050628031259.46284.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131585 Juli: I don't understand, in what way could a jinx on the DADA position could ensure the safety of the students? I mean, why would the children remain safe if they aren't taught DADA? It seems like a paradox to me: James wanted Harry to be safe, so that's why he wanted to teach DADA, right? then he dies, but James put a jinx on the position so no teacher could remain over a year, But if a good teacher (like Remus or even Crouch!Moody) couldn't last a year, then how could the kids learn to defend themselves? The jinx may be useful when there are bad teachers like Quirell, Umbridge or (I forgot his name, the CoS DADA teacher), but hurtful in the case of a good teacher. Snow: If James had thought that Snape could enter that (his) position and would teach the children of Hogwarts Dark Arts and not the `Defense' of the dark arts, Snape would then be the equal to Karkaroff who was the headmaster of a school (Durmstrang) who held the teaching of Dark Arts in high regard; not the `Defense' of the Dark Arts. If James were this teacher he would want to protect against the teaching of Dark Arts. (Lockhart was the teacher in COS who remains to be a character in the novels however subtle (or not) his role has resumed.) Snow (me) previously: If Dumbledore was aware, or became aware, of what James may have done, would he permit this jinxed position to be appointed to Snape for Snape's own welfare? Percy was aware that the position was jinxed, why wouldn't Dumbledore be aware of the same? Juli replied: So how does exactly this Jinx work? The teacher only remains as such for a year? He dies sometimes soon? or becomes insane? I can't see anything in common with all the DADA teachers except that they don't last over a year. If this jinx is that they only last a year as DADA teacher, then couldn't Snape take back his Potions position afterwards? Snow in response: I, jmo, believe that anyone who is not James will not stand a chance at maintaining the role as DADA teacher until such time that Voldemort has been vanquished forever; no matter whom they are. Juli: I think the reason why DD doesn't want Snape to teach DADA is that his cover will be blown: He *can't* teach DADA to the DE's kids, cause they'd know that he was gone to the other side; he can't teach the Dark Arts either cause DD needs them to learn DADA, so really he's got no choice but to remain where he is, unless he wanted to let LV know he was working with Dumbledore, which I'm sure he doesn't. Snow: You do have a point about Snape's cover being blown (which I wholeheartedly believe in) but Snape is teaching them something even more powerful than DADA. Potions are very much a part of, imo, why Harry is alive along with why Tom Riddle became Voldemort. If either of these potions were equal to the ancient magic that Voldemort said Lily performed, they would be greater than any DADA lesson ever taught. So, Snape is actually teaching in a position that is more powerful than the DADA position he always craved to have. I'm just looking at this from James' point of view if everything came down the way I stated in my previous post. James is faced with trusting not Dumbledore but who Dumbledore trusts (and its not likely that he gave James anymore info than he gives to Harry or anyone else) which happens to be Snape, his worst adversary. How much can you ask of the man James is human and can put his trust in just so many persons why in God's name would Dumbledore ever trust Snape? Yet, if James was wrong and Dumbledore and Snape were right and he didn't go into hiding as suggested he would be solely to blame for putting his wife and child in jeopardy. So, worse of two evils, James thought it wouldn't hurt to take the old man's suggestion to go into hiding even if Snape was the one who tipped him off, and it wouldn't hurt to take precautions about his position at Hogwarts knowing how much Snape adored Dark Arts but when it came to Sirius it was just the horse of a different color and James would never, could never think the worst of Sirius. James took cover as suggested and took precautions against his nemesis for his old position at Hogwarts by jinxing the position it isn't like it would hurt anyone, they just wouldn't last long enough to have an adverse effect if they were teaching wrongly. Cheers Snow Oops disclaimer, JMO From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 07:02:08 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:02:08 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Wizard, Muggle, & Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Lattes" wrote: > Ok so DD is like 150 right? (But Harry doesn't know this yet.) > > And is this possibility of lifespan different for those who are half- > blooded, or is it all wizards that have this longevity? > bboyminn: I've always speculated that the maximum lifespan of a wizard was about double that of a human, which would make it about 250 years. Keep in mind that's /maximum lifespan/ not /average lifetime/. The typical wizard or witch would probable 'kick the bucket' between 150 and 200 (muggle 75 to 100) years with some but very few of them living to ages past 200. I think anything beyond 225 (muggle age 112) would be extremely unusual. In a past discussion with another person in this group, they thought the age ratio should be adjusted by 18 years since muggle and wizard develop roughly the same up to that age. It's only after they become adults that the aging process slows. So ((Wizard_years - 18)/2)+18 = (Equavalent_Muggle_Years); which means a 200 year old wizard is equivalent to a ((200-18)/2)+18) = 109 year old muggle. That would make Dumbledore ((150-18)/2)+18) = 84 in muggle years, and McGongall who is about 70 would be the equivalent of ((70-18)/2)+18) = 44 in muggle years. PERSONALLY, I think those estimates are too old. I go with a simple divide by two. So 150 year old Dumbledore is about 75, and 70 year old McGonagall is about 35. The difference between the two is minor, so I think either method is a fair estimation of a wizards lifespan relative to a muggle lifespan. As far as the lifespan of TRUE half-bloods, that is, the off-spring of the marriage of a muggle and a wizard, I don't think there is a difference. It's the magic that enhances your lifespan not genetics. Either you have the magic or you don't; so magic-born, muggle-born, or half-blood, it doesn't matter. If you are a magical person, you get the enhancement. > Chry: > > Also, can a phoenix ever die? I just got that newt scamander book > and it said they have (i'm not quoting) an extensive lifespan so do > they ever die, or do they just keep existing? > > > Chys bboyminn: This last question is almost impossible to answer, JKR simply doesn't give us enough information. Further, general mythology is mixed. In some legends of the Phoenix, the creatures are immortal, in others, they may live for many centuries, in still other cases, their lifespans may be measure in a thousand or more years. Within these legendary lifespans, it's never indicated whether that is the time between regenerations or if it is the sum total of all regenerations. We really don't know which specific of the Phoenix legend JKR latch on to, and further we don't know to what extent she modified the legend to suit her own needs. Personally, I believe a Phoenix can truly and completely die, but the circumstances that could cause that would be exceptionally rare. Also, that the span between natural regenerations is probably 100 to 200 years, and that those regeneration would certainly allow a Phoenix to live for a few thousand years (1,000 to maybe 3,000 years). Relative to even a wizard's lifespan, that is as good as immortal. Can't prove a thing, but there it is. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 07:26:13 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:26:13 -0000 Subject: Quidditch Captain (was Re: Will Ginny be a prefect?) In-Reply-To: <87.2a6da7ee.2ff22cde@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131587 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/27/2005 7:28:09 AM Central Standard Time, > jlv230 at y... writes: > The obvious choice for captain is Harry (as star player and longest > serving member), Actually Katie Bell is the longest serving player > on the team. She was already there when Harry joined in his first > year. Oliver Wood left after Harry's 3rd year. Fred, George, > Angelina and Alicia are left (or were leaving) at the end of Harry's > 5th year. Leaving Katie Bell as the Senior player left from Harry's > 1st year. For that reason alone I think that Katie will get it. > > Melissa bboyminn: This is just as difficult to guess as the many other things we speculate on. First, is it really wise to appoint a captain who is only going to be with the team for one year? We've seen that happen in the book, and we could argue that the senior player has earned it. But it would seem that at some point, you would want to defer to a junior member of the team, especially if a large number of team members are being lost. A younger more junior member could start building toward the future, start building a cohesive team with consistent on-going leadership and style. Katie will only be with the team one year if selected as team captain, either Harry or Ron will at least have two years to build a team. Ginny on the other hand would have three years to start working with the main team as well as with reserves to start building a team that has winning potential when the senior players leave. So, in my view, the choices are by order of seniority- Katie Bell Harry Ron Ginny No one else seems to have sufficient aptitude to fill the role. Katie is most likely to be selected by the teachers based on both skill as a player and seniority. Although, she could voluntarily defer to Harry, to give him more time to work with his new team. Personally, I believe that Harry will get it, but won't necessarily like the job all that much, and really won't be that great at it for a variety of reason. On the other hand, Ron has grown up in a Quidditch family. He has older brothers who play, follow, and discuss Quidditch, which makes Ron much more knowledgable than Harry regarding the subtle strategies of the game. So, I personally feel that at some point, Harry will defer to Ron, and make him captain. Ron's dream finally coming true. Again, can't prove a thing, but there it is. Steve/bboyminn From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 28 07:35:36 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:35:36 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131588 > Tonks: > Thank you Princess Sara. I especially like thinking of Snape as a > fluffy bunny. ;-) If by bunny you mean a vorpal bunny :) > I am not saying that one should go out of their way to hire nasty > teachers. Seems to be a step up from some other people. Basically what I am saying is that on a scale of one to > ten with one being Molly and ten being Umbridge, I think that Snape > is about a 5. And a 5 is OK. (I think that very few of us are a > one on any regular basis. Most of us are probably a 4.) So Snape at > a 5 is strict, no nonsense, with a bit of sarcastic wit perhaps. Interesting rating system. I would agree that the average person is about a four. Of course Snape would get about a seven from me. There is a difference between a sarcastic nononsense disciplinarian and Snape. And when the only people you can use your 'wit' on are children, you are pretty much the definition of a tiny, pathetic man. And Molly deserves way higher than a one! That woman seems to want to yell at everyone but Dumbledore and Harry. The way she treats her husband and the twins is appalling and she should burn in hades for talking to Sirius the way she does. Unforgivable!!! > One final thing. Remember how the rest of the staff responded to > Umbridge? Then think of how they interact with Snape. If Snape was > really all that bad don't you think that we would see the rest of > the staff treating him the same as they do Umbridge? But they > don't. And on this point, I rest my case. Hogwarts and the Wizarding World have a stupid definition of not that bad so that doesn't get a pass for me. This is after all the society that seems to think that soul sucking demons should guard students, dragon baiting is a good olympic event, and the culture at large has the ability to turn on their heroes with the speed and intelligence of a pack of especially stupid lemmings. I mean, DD makes me mad, but they turn on him after a hundred years of reverence. These people are DUMB! phoenixgod2000 From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 28 07:52:45 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:52:45 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131589 > Pippin: > ::blinks:: I think you're exaggerating. Maybe. All I know is that I hate dealing with bullies in a power position. I've been repremanded for lipping bosses and parents who were in the wrong. It sucks to be in the weak position. On the other hand I *love* meeting bullies on a fencing strip. Because I am a very, very good fencer and humbling arrogant guys who think they are gods gift to the foil is deeply satifying. I don't think that its a stretch to suggest that Neville finds it easier to confront the torturer of his parents with a battle spell on his lips than Potion class with Snape. > Snape has been hexed three times by Harry and once each by Ron > and Hermione. So far, none of them have got > so much as a nosebleed in return. Not even a detention. That Sirius Black, he has a good confudus charm, don't he. Can't blame the kids for what they did. > What is your canon for saying that Neville has no recourse? . As > far as we know, Neville has never complained to any adult in > authority, and neither has Harry. Hagrid doesn't count, since at > that point Hagrid was only the gamekeeper. Ahh, yes. Recourse. Who would that be again. His stern, exasperated House head who shows sympathy for anyone about once in the series. Or maybe he should go to the mysterious headmaster who spouts wisdom like a fortune cookie but doesn't actually like to do a whole lot. Messes with that individual choice thing, you see. Oh, I know! He should go to his grandmother who wants to get him toughened up. She'll take him right out of Snapes class and move him to that other potion teacher at hogwarts. Oh, wait... phoenixgod2000 From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 28 08:39:17 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:39:17 -0000 Subject: Quidditch Captain (was Re: Will Ginny be a prefect?) In-Reply-To: <87.2a6da7ee.2ff22cde@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131590 > JLV: > The obvious choice for captain is Harry (as star player and longest > serving member) > > Melissa: > Actually Katie Bell is the longest serving player on the team. She > was already there when Harry joined in his first year. Oliver Wood > left after Harry's 3rd year. Fred, George, Angelina and Alicia are > left (or were leaving) at the end of Harry's 5th year. Leaving > Katie Bell as the Senior player left from Harry's 1st year. For > that reason alone I think that Katie will get it. > Hmm - Katie is only a year older than Harry. That means she must either have joined at the same time as Harry or she played in her first year. Neither of which seem to be the case... but I still can't find my copy of PS. Can someone confirm what the situation is there? Yet, consulting OotP, Ginny does only mention Angelina and Alicia leaving (I had thought the three girls were in the same year for some strange reason - hence my comment). I hope you can see how I got confused! I still want Ron to be captain. But perhaps he'll have to wait until his last year at Hogwarts... JLV xx From kempermentor at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 08:57:20 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:57:20 -0000 Subject: BetrRe: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131591 Lupinlore: > > ...edited... > > What would be the purpose of changing Draco? It would show no one > is born evil, which would be an effective message. It would show > the value of redemption. But JKR already has several characters > that may serve that purpose, including Percy, Snape, and Pettigrew. > > What would be the literary value of Draco not changing? It would > provide a needed example of what happens when someone doesn't > question and isn't redeemed. Redemption has no meaning except when > compared with the opposite. ... > > It would be tragic, in a sense. But it would also illustrate the > real fact that you can't save everyone, and that people often tread > a very easy path to damnation. bboyminn: ...Edit... ... Edit some possible romantic notions and harsh realities... ... ediit some more... So, my point is that I think it is inevitable for Draco to change. Either he will be completely sucked into the Death Eater mentality, if not the actual organization, and be on his way to becoming Voldie-II, or he will suddenly be faced with the dark and nasty realities of beind a Death Eater and realize he doesn't have the stomach for it. ...edit... There is a part of me that is leaning toward 'Redeemed Draco', but other than a distinct lack of courage and real-world experience, we haven't seen much to support it. Perhaps, I'VE just been reading too much Harry/Draco slash. Kemper: I would like to offer two other scenarios for Draco that won't leave him redeemed nor having a dark mark tatoo... 'Betrayed Draco' Draco trying to impress the eye of his father or the Dark Lord does something that foils his father/DL's plan. 1. DL tells Lucius to kill Draco (in some twisted Abraham/Isaac tones) and Harry saves Draco somehow: begrudgingly, by happenstance, or other. 2. DL with Lucius by his side goes to kill Draco. Draco cries out for his dad to save him, but it's Harry who does so: begrudgingly, by happenstance, or other. The foil for the Malfoy's seem to be the Weasley's. So, if Not-a-Spy Percy is redeemed and forgiven by his family, it would seem that Dumb- Dumb Draco would be betrayed and condemned by his. Or maybe I'm trying to influence Steve's slash. Kemper From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 28 09:05:16 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:05:16 -0000 Subject: Quidditch Captain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131592 I confess it has always rather confused me that Harry was troubled that he was not made a prefect but he neither expected nor wanted to be named captan, the head of the Quidditch team. It's odd. Wood was leader of the team at tame age as Harry. Eggplant From jwright at amdocs.com Tue Jun 28 04:53:01 2005 From: jwright at amdocs.com (pitaprh) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:53:01 -0000 Subject: Snape in the Graveyard? (Was: Re: Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131593 Chris: > Now obviously the DEs know the dead ones whom LV is referring to. > Karkaroff is the cowardly one, Barty JR. the loyal one, that > leaves Snape. Juli: > Actually I always thought that "The one who has left me forever, > he'll die" is Karkaroff, "The Coward who'll pay" is Severus, and I > agree that Barty of course is the loyal one. Why does Snape have to be either the cowardly one or the one that has left Voldemort forever? Voldemort walked by about 6 DE ( I don't have the book here and can't remember exactly) and didn't say anything to them. Why wasn't Snape one of them? We don't know that Snape wasn't there. He may not have been able to apparate out of Hogwarts but that doesn't mean he couldn't head to Hogmeade and go from there. Snape had to have known that Voldemort came back even before Dumbledore and before Dumbledore asked him to do whatever it was at the end of book 4, because the mark on his arm would be burning. Pitaprh From jwright at amdocs.com Tue Jun 28 05:22:02 2005 From: jwright at amdocs.com (pitaprh) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:22:02 -0000 Subject: HP Prediction Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131594 Compulsory Questions: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Bill Weasley. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Viktor Krum 3. What is Lily's big secret? She was also an animagi. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? New Character 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one in particular. He may have crushes but not a relationship 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? NOT a pensive. In book 5 when Arthur is bit by the snake Dumbledore brings out a bowl that looks like a pensive and smoke comes out in the form of snakes and it tells him that Arthur is in danger. It is that object (which we are never told what it is) that is on the cover of book 6. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yep. Can't get away from Snapes tormenting and he wants to be an auror(SP) 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Nope 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Tweleve. JKs favorite number. Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Kreacher will become the Malfoy's new house elf. 2. Harry will find out what is behind the veil and there is no way to communicate to those behind it. 3. Gryffindor wins the house cup. 4. Something happens where Harry is once again looked poorly upon by his peers at school (except his close friends). 5. We get another true prediction from Professor Trelewany. From emza at tesco.net Mon Jun 27 23:05:31 2005 From: emza at tesco.net (emza29) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:05:31 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday Dobby! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131595 Just noticed that JKR has updated her website, and today it is Dobby's birthday. Awww... I'm getting him a pair of sparkly socks. Emma From louis.ward at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 09:49:43 2005 From: louis.ward at gmail.com (Louis Ward) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:49:43 -0500 Subject: Lifespans?... Wizard, Muggle, & Phoenix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131596 Steve wrote: > Personally, I believe a Phoenix can truly and completely die, > but the circumstances that could cause that would be > exceptionally rare. Also, that the span between natural > regenerations is probably 100 to 200 years, and that those > regeneration would certainly allow a Phoenix to live for a few > thousand years (1,000 to maybe 3,000 years). Relative to even a > wizard's lifespan, that is as good as immortal. I got the impression that time between natural regenerations was much shorter for Fawkes. Dumbledore seemed to be at least somewhat personally familar with Fawkes various stages of 'development' in CoS. Too familar for it to be a twice-in-a-wizard-lifetime event. "Louis" From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 28 10:54:13 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:54:13 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131597 > > Pippin: > > What is your canon for saying that Neville has no recourse? . As > > far as we know, Neville has never complained to any adult in > > authority, and neither has Harry. Hagrid doesn't count, since at > > that point Hagrid was only the gamekeeper. Phoenixgod: > Ahh, yes. Recourse. Who would that be again. Pippin: "You will find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." --Albus Dumbledore, CoS 14 Maybe Neville has learned helplessness, or maybe he, like Harry, wants to show he is tough enough to take it. But you can't deny, I think, that the emphasis in the series, and from JKR herself, is that it's sometimes right, but not easy, to ask for help. Now granted, the help that is given may not be the kind of help that Harry or Neville wants -- Harry is told that lipping Umbridge is not the way to go, but he does get help from the Order and Dobby in setting up the DA. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jun 28 11:07:02 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:07:02 -0000 Subject: Harry doesn't know Re: Lifespans? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131598 "Chys Lattes" wrote: > Ok so DD is like 150 right? (But Harry doesn't know this yet.) Potioncat: This never gets discussed! Harry doesn't know how old DD or McG are. Not that most kids care, but he'd be surprised, wouldn't he? Even if he took the time to do the math, he could come up with 80 or so for DD. (Lot's of people did.) Would he possibly guess that McG is 70+? Most "normal" fans don't know how old DD is. There are hints that wizards live a very long life, but we're not actually told in the books "how" long they live. Ok, I know everyone of us knows, but we aren't normal. Why did JKR make a point of saying that Harry doesn't know this yet? I wonder how it's going to fit into the plot? It might be something that wouldn't catch us too off guard, but would surprise less knowing fans. Any ideas? And another thought just crossed my mind; I wonder how many of the old Headmasters DD actually knew. From sam2sar at charter.net Tue Jun 28 12:24:52 2005 From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:24:52 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday Dobby! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131599 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "emza29" wrote: > Just noticed that JKR has updated her website, and today it is Dobby's > birthday. > > Awww... I'm getting him a pair of sparkly socks. > > Emma I am going to give him the basket of mateless socks sitting by my waching machine. I put a lovely bow on it. He could even sleep in the basket if he wanted to. Sam 2 Sar From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 12:47:46 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:47:46 -0000 Subject: Title of Book 7 (was: Shades of Grey) SPOILER? In-Reply-To: <02bf01c57b59$85868aa0$9959e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131600 > Amiable Dorsai declared: > Nah. The title of book seven has already been announced: > > "Neville Longbottom and the Misunderstood Prophecy" > > Mich muttered: > Hi Amiable Dorsai. Was this true? Or where you just kidding around? > When you said that the seventh book will be called that? I personally > think that you were having a little fun. I may have been teasing just a little. ;-) Amiable "What's this tongue doing in my cheek?" Dorsai From jjpandy at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 12:53:43 2005 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (JJ Pandy) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:53:43 -0000 Subject: Quidditch Captain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > I confess it has always rather confused me that Harry was troubled > that he was not made a prefect but he neither expected nor wanted to > be named captan, the head of the Quidditch team. It's odd. Wood was > leader of the team at tame age as Harry. > > Eggplant JJ's reply: Harry recognizes that it is usually a senior member of the team who is made captain, so he does not expect himself to be given the position. However, prefects are chosen during 5th year, so he knew he was eligible for the position and since there were so few 5th-year Gryffindor boys to choose from, he figured he had a good chance of being selected. -JJ From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 28 13:18:17 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:18:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] BetrRe: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C14E19.2010901@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131602 Kemper: >I would like to offer two other scenarios for Draco that won't leave >him redeemed nor having a dark mark tatoo... 'Betrayed Draco' > >Draco trying to impress the eye of his father or the Dark Lord does >something that foils his father/DL's plan. > >1. DL tells Lucius to kill Draco (in some twisted Abraham/Isaac tones) >and Harry saves Draco somehow: begrudgingly, by happenstance, or >other. > >2. DL with Lucius by his side goes to kill Draco. Draco cries out >for his dad to save him, but it's Harry who does so: begrudgingly, by >happenstance, or other. > > heather now: I actually like this idea, and it's similar to a dream I had not long ago. In my dream Draco was in great danger, but the cause of the danger wasn't specified. His dad trying to kill him would fit the bill. Also in my dream, it wasn't Harry that saved Draco but *Hermione*, leaving Draco in life-debt to that "filthy little mud-blood". Hermione, in helping Draco, actually softens somewhat toward him, and he, in panic and desperation and an odd sense of gratitude, tells her some things about his family, his life, etc that make him 'vulnerable' and 'open' to her. Maybe with your addition to my storyline, it could be "I've tried so hard to please my father... every thing I've ever done... I've cheated, I've stolen, I've tattled, I have tormented you and Harry, all so that my father will be proud of me. He was never happy with me, he was always threatening to ship me off if I didn't do better in school, so I tried harder, I did more. Why was he never happy with what I did? Now he's trying to... to kill me? All I wanted was my daddy... I don't understand..." After this, Hermione and Draco become solid, though somewhat begrudgingly, friends, and Draco starts to re-evaluate himself and his values. The whole discussion of "Draco Redeemed" is interesting, and I admit I'd like to see it, though I was quite unconvinced by any of the offered scenarios of what would actually *trigger* his change-of-heart. It would have to be something dramatic, something definite, in my view, rather than just a re-evaluation-because-I'm-16-and-daddy-is-in-jail sort of deal. Daddy tries to kill him? That would do the job for me. Would Voldemort actually request this murder, however? I believe so. With Crouch!Moody and with Tom Riddle, we have seen this idea of killing-your-father being an important 'rite-of-passage' for the truly evil. Perhaps Voldy will convince Lucius that someday, Draco might kill HIM so he'd better kill Draco first. Of course, Lucius knows his son would never have the balls to do that. And it's a totally different situation -- Crouch Jr and Riddle killed fathers who they despised because they represented everything they stood against. Draco idolizes his father in an unhealthy way to the point of sycophancy. So another possibility would be Voldy realizing how 'weak' Draco is, and convincing Lucius that he is a liability... likely to betray them, even by accident, etc. Or, thirdly, Draco at 16 could finally start to develop inner strength and stand up to his father. Still being evil!Draco, sure, but no longer being toady to daddy. This brings us back to situation #1 -- kill Draco before he kills you, Lucius. Anyway, fun to postulate about. :) heather the buzzard From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 28 13:20:46 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:20:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy Birthday Dobby! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C14EAE.4030601@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131603 emza29 wrote: >Just noticed that JKR has updated her website, and today it is Dobby's >birthday. > >Awww... I'm getting him a pair of sparkly socks. > > heather now: Um. Goody. So I share my birthday with a brown-nosing rebellious counter-culture idol-worshipping house elf with a sock fetish? Bully for me (lol) heather the buzzard From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 28 13:41:21 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:41:21 +0100 Subject: why couldn't Vernon Dursley hold Harry Message-ID: <001d01c57be7$131d5b40$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 131604 Yesterday, I started listening to OotP and once again I've noticed another reference to someone being unable to hold Harry - this time, Uncle Vernon. I seem to remember that in PS, Dumbledore tells Harry the reason why Quirrell couldn't hold him was because of the protection Harry's mother left in him. Now, in OotP, we read that Uncle Vernon couldn't. As far as I'm aware, the only other time Uncle Vernon grabbed Harry was in CoS, when he dragged him upstairs, following the letter threatening expulsion from Hogwarts if any magic was performed during holiday time. So I'm wondering whether this incident in OotP was either some magic inside Harry, or once again, help from Lily. Derek From jjpandy at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 15:08:34 2005 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (JJ Pandy) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:08:34 -0000 Subject: Clarification - Godparent In-Reply-To: <00f001c57b6c$cbf9b030$8000a8c0@casa> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > > > Sherry > i've always wondered was if Dumbledore believed in his heart that > > Sirius had betrayed the Potters. > > Me (fridwulfa): > Remember DD offered to be the Potter's SK, that > makes me think he didn't really trust Sirius. They knew there was a traitor > among them, so... Why not Sirius? I bet DD had seen enough double agents, > spies, and traitors in his days not to trust ANYone. > Cheers, > Fridwulfa > > JJ's reply: I'd like to know why the Potter's didn't go with DD as SK - after all, isn't he the only one You-Know-Who ever feared, and couldn't DD have used additional spells to further protect the secret within him? Oh, and on a side note - does Harry have a godmother? Maybe he did have one, but she was a victim to Voldemort before Harry's parents were? -JJ > > > ______________________________________________ > Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! > Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad > http://correo.yahoo.es From labmystc at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 15:22:41 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:22:41 -0000 Subject: why couldn't Vernon Dursley hold Harry In-Reply-To: <001d01c57be7$131d5b40$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131606 > Yesterday, I started listening to OotP and once again I've noticed >another reference to someone being unable to hold Harry - this time, >Uncle Vernon. > Now, in OotP, we read that Uncle Vernon couldn't. As far as I'm >aware, the only other time Uncle Vernon grabbed Harry was in CoS, >when he dragged him upstairs, following the letter threatening >expulsion from Hogwarts if any magic was performed during holiday >time. So I'm wondering whether this incident in OotP was either some magic inside Harry, or once again, help from Lily. > Derek I think this would be the sort of *wandless* magic we've seen from Harry before. He is able to perform magic when he is feeling intense emotion. He made the glass disappear from the boa constrictor's cage (SS,p.28, Sch. PB)after Dudley had pushed him to the floor. He blew up Aunt Marge like a balloon while she was criticizing him and his parents(CoS, p.29, Sch. PB). At other times as well, though I don't have specific page references. On this occasion, he had just bumped his head on the window sill after hearing Mundungus disapparate(OoTP, p. 4, Sch. HB). "Then, as the pain in the top of Harry's head gave a particulary nasty throb, Uncle Vernon yelped and released Harry as though he had received an electric shock-some invisible force seemed to have surged through his nephew, making him impossible to hold(p.5). The sudden pain from the bump on his head, coupled with Vernon grabbing him through the window probably made Harry a little angry. I think no outside intervention, just anger causing the magic within to swell a little bit. Chris labmystc From labmystc at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 15:32:21 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:32:21 -0000 Subject: Clarification - Godparent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131607 > I'd like to know why the Potter's didn't go with DD as SK - after > all, isn't he the only one You-Know-Who ever feared, and couldn't DD > have used additional spells to further protect the secret within him? >snip< > -JJ My guess would be that the Potters trusted their friends above all others. James had grown up with Sirius after all, and they were like brothers. The person anyone relies on to not betray them is their best friend. We're not sure whether Lily agreed with them, as has been discussed on here before. James more than likely had to convince Lily, as she probably would have went along with DD. There are gaps in the story that will probably be resolved in the last two books, and we will find out more information then. I do have to give credit to Sirius though. He made a mistake in trusting Peter Pettigrew. However, he knew enough about himself to be aware that if he was caught by LV, he may have weakened under torture and eventually divulged the secret. This shows to me that the arrogant teenager eventually grew into a man that was well aware of his flaws. Chris labmystc From jmkearns at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 13:39:26 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:39:26 -0000 Subject: Quidditch Captain (was Re: Will Ginny be a prefect?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131608 > > Melissa: > > Actually Katie Bell is the longest serving player on the team. > > She was already there when Harry joined in his first year. > > Oliver Wood left after Harry's 3rd year. Fred, George, Angelina > > and Alicia are left (or were leaving) at the end of Harry's 5th > > year. Leaving Katie Bell as the Senior player left from Harry's > > 1st year. For that reason alone I think that Katie will get it. > > JLV: > Hmm - Katie is only a year older than Harry. That means she must > either have joined at the same time as Harry or she played in her > first year. Neither of which seem to be the case... but I still > can't find my copy of PS. Can someone confirm what the situation > is there? Yet, consulting OotP, Ginny does only mention Angelina > and Alicia leaving (I had thought the three girls were in the same > year for some strange reason - hence my comment). I hope you can > see how I got confused! John K now: Katie is only mentioned in passing in books 1 and 2. We hear from Lee Jordan that Alicia was only a reserve the previous year, but nothing about Katie. I think, as JLV has said, it must be true that Katie joined the team the same time as Harry, and we just don't hear about it because from Harry's perspective it doesn't matter - the whole team is new to him anyway. So... Katie is the most senior member by age but not tenure, unless you include the fact that Harry only played a third of a season last year. If Harry's season out counts against him (and I can see McGonagall doing something like that, especially if she doesn't want him as a distracted captain anyway), then the next most longest tenured players after Katie are Ron and Ginny. It's a very real possibility that any of the four could be captain. Poor Katie... what's she going to do with Angelina and Alicia gone? :( John K From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 16:05:39 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clarification - Godparent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050628160540.11224.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131609 JJ wrote: ...edited... > Oh, and on a side note - does Harry have a > godmother? Maybe he did > have one, but she was a victim to Voldemort before > Harry's parents > were? No he didn't, JKR says on her website that Sirius was too busy being a rebel to get married. Juli Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lealess at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 16:39:05 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:39:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131610 "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > This is after all the society that seems to think that soul sucking > demons should guard students, dragon baiting is a good olympic event, > and the culture at large has the ability to turn on their heroes with > the speed and intelligence of a pack of especially stupid lemmings. > I mean, DD makes me mad, but they turn on him after a hundred years > of reverence. > > These people are DUMB! > lealess: There are real life parallels to Hogwarts-style schools, namely, parochial schools. While most have high standards and expectations of teachers, others occasionally surface in the news because of abuse of students and lack of concern for teacher qualifications. Similarly, I have a friend from Northern Ireland who was taught in a Catholic boys' boarding school that sounded a lot like Hogwarts in many ways, complete with education in the mysteries. That school had quite vicious corporal punishment on top of teacher intimidation, bullying, belittling of students ... yet in spite of his bitterness at having several subjects ruined because of exceedingly uninterested or hostile teachers (worse than Snape, frankly, because they weren't qualified in their subjects), in spite of not having one class where boys were not rapped across the hands with a ruler or verbally demeaned by priests and lay teachers on a regular basis, or worse, he and most other students left school with a generally excellent education. (Not every one did, admittedly.) Frankly, the fact that Hogwarts is by-and-large non-sectarian, i.e., not devoted to one sex, class or religion, would probably seem revolutionary in the society in which my friend grew up. Hogwarts is part of an old society where being a wizard appears to be a fairly brutal business. It exists as a fictional construct, on its own terms. It is similar to a parochial school in that it teaches subjects which distinguish the believers from the rest of society, in which the teachers are drawn from the ranks of believers. I suppose we can apply our 21st century, Western standards to wizarding society, and perhaps that is what JKR is striving for. In a larger human rights sense, Snape seems to be petty but not harmful to students in terms of lasting damage. And in spite of his unpleasantness, most of his students receive a solid education in potions. Not all do, but that is to be expected in any class. lealess From julierice8 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 16:02:42 2005 From: julierice8 at yahoo.com (Julie Rice) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: That Night at Godric's Hollow - a discussion of what I'll be Message-ID: <20050628160242.99098.qmail@web50509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131612 snip From: "jotwo2003" There's a lot of speculation that what happened the night that the Potters were killed at Godric's Hollow may be the Chapter One of HBP that's been 13 years in the brewing. If this is correct then I will be very interested in looking out for any hints that the person who makes the final stand against Voldemort to protect Lily and Harry isn't James. (This is a theory that arose from the flashback in the PS/SS film. As JKR wrote this herself, according to an interview in Empire Online with Columbus, I take it as canon. In the flashback Geraldine Somerville and a child are shown, but the audience just sees the black-clad arm and hand of the person standing in front of her. Also the cast list is in order of appearance but Adrian Rawlins is not credited alongside Geraldine Somerville. He is credited much later. This implies that Adrian Rawlins only played James in the Mirror of Erised scene, not the Godric's Hollow scene.) Julie replies: You bring up a lot of interesting points. Whoever the person may or may not have been in the movie scene, the person that was killed before Lily was James. THis is from the revised version of GOF. (Who else was freaked out when they read that Lily was killed before James when they first read it. What kind of scenarios were going through your head.) Lily came out of voldemort's wand and then James came out. Maybe there was someone else there defending them but didn't die, but Voldemort killed James and then before he killed someone else, he killed Lily. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Tue Jun 28 16:41:21 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:41:21 -0000 Subject: Why is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131613 --- "firebird" wrote: > Good question. > > LV must know that Snape is working for DD and the Order. When LV > was sharing Quirrell's body, Snape made it very clear to Quirrell > that he was dedicated to thwarting Quirrell's attempt to obtain > the PS/SS for LV. > > firebird Aussie: Sorry. I don't agree. LV doesn't let the DE know of his full plans so easily. So Snape had no idea what Quirrel's intentions for the PS/SS was. He knew Quirrel let the troll in and tried to jinx Harry's broom, but didn't know that it was for LV's bidding or purpose. (after being away from DE and Snape so long, LV didn't know who he could trust. Since LV didn't reveal his plans, Snape could have been excused for not helping then) aussie From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 17:43:31 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:43:31 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Wizard, Muggle, & Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131614 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Louis Ward wrote: > Steve wrote: > > Personally, I believe a Phoenix can truly and completely die, > > but the circumstances that could cause that would be > > exceptionally rare. Also, that the span between natural > > regenerations is probably 100 to 200 years, and that those > > regeneration would certainly allow a Phoenix to live for a few > > thousand years (1,000 to maybe 3,000 years). Relative to even a > > wizard's lifespan, that is as good as immortal. > Louis: > I got the impression that time between natural regenerations was > much shorter for Fawkes. Dumbledore seemed to be at least somewhat personally familar with Fawkes various stages of 'development' in > CoS. Too familar for it to be a twice-in-a-wizard-lifetime event. > > "Louis" bboyminn: That's why I made a point of saying /natural/ regeneration. Fawkes has been force to regenerate a few times; for example, when Fawkes ate a death curse in the Min'o'Mag Atrium. That would allow Dumbledore to see the rebirth several times, although, he wouldn't see the details of the natural aging process. Also, let's not forget that Dumbledore may have witnesses other phoenix (not Fawkes) degeneration & rebirth, and he may have a great deal of book knowledge or knowledge obtained from other people about the phoenix lifecycle. You do bring up a valid point, and I am only guessing at the answer. JKR just has not given us enough information to even make and educated guess about the Phoenix. I'm going mostly in instinct and intuision. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Tue Jun 28 17:43:42 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:43:42 -0000 Subject: Character Happiness (Was SHIP - SB/RL) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131615 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: > I think what we have here is a classic case of HoYay*. There is > (usually) nothing in it, but the yay! factor makes people look for > things 'between the lines' - because it's fun - (yay)! I think the > attraction of it comes from the idea that the love must be secret, > and secret love is intense, exciting, sexy and passionate (yay). MizStorge replies: I think it's more a case of "HappyYay!" As some readers have pointed out, JKR's characters come from some of the most disfunctional backgrounds in literature, be it unhappy childhood (Harry, Sirius, Severus), suspicion (Remus bitten by a werewolf, Neville possibly a Squib, Draco failng to live up to Lucius), poverty (the Weasleys), parental death (Tom Riddle, Harry, Luna) etc. that any happiness in the books is very transitory (poor Harry's best memories of his parents are illusions in a magical mirror). While some may feel having a moody stranger for your erstwhile godchild may make up for the murder of some of your dearest friends, being falsely imprisoned under horrendous circumstances for 13 years and living on the run in dog form eating rats until you are virtually imprisoned in your parent's home with a surly house-elf and a bunch of co-workers, this version of Sirius Black's life isn't one I find satisfying. Even if it's a total illusion, I find more enjoyable a subtext that supports Sirius being happy in a loving adult relationship, giving him some stability and a reconnection to the important people in his past as recompense for his terrible treatment at the hands of his creator, JKR. End rant! From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 17:55:01 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:55:01 -0000 Subject: Why is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > (after being away from DE and Snape so long, LV didn't know who he > could trust. Since LV didn't reveal his plans, Snape could have been > excused for not helping then) GEO: But Voldemort had Crouch under the Imperius curse for more a few months and would have had the time and leisure to interrogate the former head of the department of magical law enforcement on what happened after his fall and which Death Eaters snitched and which remained loyal and given his position he would have certainly been an expert on the matter considering he presided during the wizengamot trial in which Karkaroff snitched on Rookwood and would have probably known about Snape being a spy so that the latter could have avoided Azkaban. From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 18:14:59 2005 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] BetrRe: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: <42C14E19.2010901@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20050628181459.25479.qmail@web30312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131617 > Kemper postulated: > > >I would like to offer two other scenarios for Draco > that won't leave him redeemed nor having a dark mark tatoo... 'Betrayed Draco' [quick snip, more of a trim...] 1. DL tells Lucius to kill Draco (in some twisted Abraham/Isaac tones) and Harry saves Draco somehow: begrudgingly, by happenstance, or other. > > > >2. DL with Lucius by his side goes to kill Draco. > Draco cries out for his dad to save him, but it's Harry who does so: begrudgingly, by happenstance, or other. > heather expanded: [after an interesting comparison to a dream she had, with a possible scenario] > Daddy tries to kill him? That would do the job for me. > > Would Voldemort actually request this murder, however? I believe so. With Crouch!Moody and with Tom Riddle, we have seen this idea of killing-your-father being an important 'rite-of-passage' for the truly evil. Perhaps Voldy will convince Lucius that someday, Draco might kill HIM so he'd better kill Draco first. > > Of course, Lucius knows his son would never have the balls to do that. And it's a totally different situation -- Crouch Jr and Riddle killed fathers who they despised because they represented everything they stood against. Draco idolizes his father in an unhealthy way to the point of sycophancy. [followed by some additional plausible scenarios, which I rather ruthlessly snipped] akh: This part of your response harkens back to a (somewhat unfocused) post I made earlier, speculating on the statement Crouch/Moody makes in Goblet of Fire, equating the killing of his father to LV killing his in order to "ensur[e] the rise of the Dark Order." If Patricide is part of the ancient ritual of membership/advancement in the Dark Order, Draco is in for a nasty surprise, if he chooses DE-hood. This could lead to the scenario you describe above (Lucius had better off Draco before it's his turn to die), Draco "failing the test" because he can't bring himself to kill his father, or some other attitude-altering catastrophe. Hmm, this might explain the rather noticeable lack of grandparents in HP... akh, who want to wish Happy Birthday to all posters who shares Dobby's big day today! __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 28 18:39:45 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:39:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry doesn't know Re: Lifespans? References: <1119958692.769.33382.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001e01c57c10$c46b1440$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 131618 Potioncat mused: >Most "normal" fans don't know how old DD is. There are hints that >wizards live a very long life, but we're not actually told in the >books "how" long they live. Ok, I know everyone of us knows, but we >aren't normal. Why did JKR make a point of saying that Harry doesn't >know this yet? I wonder how it's going to fit into the plot? It might >be something that wouldn't catch us too off guard, but would surprise >less knowing fans. Any ideas? > >And another thought just crossed my mind; I wonder how many of the old >Headmasters DD actually knew. Possibly not very many. Our only reference points are - we know Dumbledore's age, which leads us to conclude that he was born around 1840 - the description of Armando Dippet in CoS, and the fact that appears to be very elderly Given that Marchbanks is that much older than Dumbledore, it's not impossible that Dippet was already Head when Dumbledore went to school in the 1850s, perhaps aged about 100 when he took on the job.. It's not explicit as to whether there was another Head between Dippet and Dumbledore. I'd go for a minimum of one, but more likely two Also interesting how little we speculate about Dumbledore's earlier activities. His first 100 years are a complete blank. hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 18:47:09 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lifespans?... Wizard, Muggle, & Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050628184710.59096.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131619 --- Steve wrote: > PERSONALLY, I think those estimates are too old. I go with a simple > divide by two. So 150 year old Dumbledore is about 75, and 70 year > old McGonagall is about 35. The difference between the two is > minor, so I > think either method is a fair estimation of a wizards lifespan > relative to a muggle lifespan. The really interesting question re lifespans is, when exactly does the aging process slow down? Because everyone under the age of, say, Arthur Weasley (who's about 50 yrs old, I think, based on Charlie's and Bill's ages) acts like their muggle equivalents. Does it happen when you hit 60? Does every year suddenly become two years? Or does your metabolism suddenly slow down? Because if it's as simple as 1 wizard year = 2 muggle years, then witches would have babies until they were 80! Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 18:53:38 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:53:38 -0000 Subject: Why is Snape allowed to continue spying? Double Trouble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131620 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > > GEO: > But Voldemort had Crouch under the Imperius curse for more a few > months and would have had the time and leisure to interrogate the > former head of the department of magical law enforcement on what > happened after his fall and which Death Eaters snitched and which > remained loyal and given his position he would have certainly been > an expert on the matter considering he presided during the > wizengamot trial in which Karkaroff snitched on Rookwood and would > have probably known about Snape being a spy so that the latter could > have avoided Azkaban. > > Geo bboyminn: I don't think there is much that Crouch could have told Voldemort that he didn't already know, plus how did Voldemort know the things he did know, the many things he reveal in the graveyard? Perhaps what knowledge of circumstances Voldemort had, did indeed come from Crouch. So, Voldemort knew may of the DE's claimed bewitchment, renounced Voldemort and went back to their happy trouble free lives. Knowing this, it's reasonable he suspected that many of the DE's made one excuse or another to get themselves out of trouble. That Snape might have done so too, would not be that much of a shock. As far as Snape, sadly (for you), I must once again trot out my Double-Double Agent theory. The best explanation I can come up with to explain how Snape can still be at Hogwarts and yet still appear to be working with Voldemort is that he is a double-double agent spy. First, Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore to appear to betray Voldemort, but with the real intent of acting as Voldemort's spy on Dumbledore. Then Snape actually joined Dumbledore and now became a spy against Voldemort. Since Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore, it is expected that Snape, in order to maintian his cover, will appear to be loyal to Dumbledore and acting against Voldemort. So any betrayals Voldemort sees will be expected as part of the game. Given his Double-Double Spy status, both side will accept Snape's appearance of loyalty to the other, and will both accept Snape's periodic betrayals. As far as the graveyard scene, Snape is at Hogwarts, and is required to appear loyal to Dumbledore. If nothing else he is under the very close supervision of Dumbledore. Karkaroff on the other hand, while at Hogwarts, is much more free to come and go. Therefore, there is logical justification for Snape not appearing at the graveyard, but no justification for Karkaroff not to appear. Plus, Fake!Moody is at Hogwarts testing Karkaroff's loyalty and reporting back to Voldemort. So, Karkaroff could appear at the graveyard if he wanted to, that makes him 'too cowardly to return'. Snape on the other hand has an excuse for not appearing, and that makes him 'the one I BELIEVE has left me forever'; meaning truly joined Dumbledore. Once the graveyard ordeal was over, Snape contacts Voldemort again, pledges his loyalty and offers to continue spying against Dumbledore. Even if Voldemort doesn't believe Snape, he certainly believes he can use Snape to his advantage for as long as it serves him. That's the only explanation that I've come across that resolve all or most conflicts related to Snape returning to Voldemort. I've yet to see a more complete explanation. Of course, I can't say it's true, only that it explains a lot. Steve/bboyminn From editor at texas.net Tue Jun 28 19:00:41 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:00:41 -0000 Subject: Lifespans? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131621 Chys Lattes wrote: > Ok so DD is like 150 right? (But Harry doesn't know this yet.) We don't know that Harry doesn't know. Canon is silent on this point. > And is this possibility of lifespan different for those who are half- > blooded, or is it all wizards that have this longevity? This isn't in the books, so far--I don't know if JKR has addressed it in interviews. > Also, can a phoenix ever die? I just got that newt scamander book and > it said they have (i'm not quoting) an extensive lifespan so do they > ever die, or do they just keep existing? Going strictly by myth, there is only *one* phoenix and no, it never dies. The cycle just keeps repeating. In JKR's world, though, it seems they are a type of animal (not a singular one), and so I'd go by what ol' Newt says. ~Amanda From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 19:30:05 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:30:05 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Wizard, Muggle, & Phoenix In-Reply-To: <20050628184710.59096.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > --- Steve wrote: > > .. I go with a simple > > divide by two. So 150 year old Dumbledore is about 75, ... I > > think either method is a fair estimation of a wizards lifespan > > relative to a muggle lifespan. > Magda > > The really interesting question re lifespans is, when exactly does > the aging process slow down? Because everyone under the age of, > (50) ...acts like their muggle equivalents. Does it happen > when you hit 60? Does every year suddenly become two years? Or > does your metabolism suddenly slow down? > > Because if it's as simple as 1 wizard year = 2 muggle years, then > witches would have babies until they were 80! > > Magda bboyminn: How you look is different than how you act. People act their age because they are their age, people who are 50 have 50 years of experience and knowledge, and act accordingly. Among muggles many people look like they are 30 when they are 50, and others who appear to age faster, look 50 when they are age 30, so appearance is not a real clue across a broad spectrum. The key is that magic protects magical people. They are less susceptible to the physical deterioration over time. Look at Dumbledore, he's 150, but his description is not much different that a typical healthy 75 to 85 year old person. Keep in mind that we have Congressmen who are in their 70's and 80's; one even made it to nearly age 100. Look at Marchbanks, the OWL examiner. She looks like someone who is probably approaching 100 years old, yet she is more likely to be approaching 200 years old. So, the maturing process is not affected, people still 'grow up'; it's the aging process that's slowed; they don't grow old as fast. McGonagall who is about 70 is not described as being old in the books. One would guess her appearance to be that of a conservative person in her 40's which is consistent with the age calculation I made. But never is she describe as looking like a typical 70 year old. As far as having babies, Molly, depending on you interpretation, seems to be somewhere between Hagrid and McGonagall in age, that make her nearly 70 and we can assume the same for Arthur. That means Molly had Ginny when she was about roughly age 55. That is certainly past the age when most women are capable of having babies. It's not unheard of, but it is rare. So, yes, witches can have babies much later in life; perhaps into their 60's and even 70's. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From alishak at spu.edu Tue Jun 28 19:50:04 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:50:04 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Wizard, Muggle, & Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131623 > bboyminn: > > As far as having babies, Molly, depending on you interpretation, seems > to be somewhere between Hagrid and McGonagall in age, that make her > nearly 70 and we can assume the same for Arthur. That means Molly had > Ginny when she was about roughly age 55. That is certainly past the > age when most women are capable of having babies. It's not unheard of, > but it is rare. So, yes, witches can have babies much later in life; > perhaps into their 60's and even 70's. > > Just a few thoughts. Alisha: I'm curious as to what makes you place Molly between Hagrid and McGonagall. I've always seen her as younger than Hagrid. Could you clarify your reasoning for that? From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 20:05:42 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:05:42 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "madorganization" wrote: > Alisha: > I'm curious as to what makes you place Molly between Hagrid and > McGonagall. I've always seen her as younger than Hagrid. Could you > clarify your reasoning for that? bboyminn: Hagrid was 13 fifty years ago when the Chamber was opened. That makes him 63 during 'Chamber of Secrets'. Again in CoS, Molly comments on OG the Gamekeeper before Hagrid. That makes it appear as if Molly was in school before Hagrid; although, it is possible that their Hogwarts careers overlapped; though, Molly gives no indication that she is aware of the previous Chamber opening or the trouble that occurred then, and no indication that she was aware of Hagrid's involvement. So, I am guessing that Molly is older than Hagrid. Molly seems to know who McGonagall is, but gives no sense of familiarity that you would expect if they had gone to school together. So Hagrid is 63 in CoS, we can assume that McGonagall is 71 in CoS. That puts my guess at Molly's age at about 68. That puts a substantial gap between her and Hagrid, and a smaller but significant gap between her and McGonagall. That makes Molly's equivalent muggle age ((68-18)/2)+18)= 43. That still leaves her plenty young to have had Ginny 12 years previous at normal wizard's age 56, and muggle equivalent age 37. This varies slightly from my previous post, but back there, I was just guessing. Steve/bboyminn From alishak at spu.edu Tue Jun 28 20:43:58 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:43:58 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131625 > bboyminn: > > Hagrid was 13 fifty years ago when the Chamber was opened. That makes > him 63 during 'Chamber of Secrets'. > > Again in CoS, Molly comments on OG the Gamekeeper before Hagrid. That > makes it appear as if Molly was in school before Hagrid; although, it > is possible that their Hogwarts careers overlapped; though, Molly > gives no indication that she is aware of the previous Chamber opening > or the trouble that occurred then, and no indication that she was > aware of Hagrid's involvement. So, I am guessing that Molly is older > than Hagrid. Molly seems to know who McGonagall is, but gives no sense > of familiarity that you would expect if they had gone to school > together. So Hagrid is 63 in CoS, we can assume that McGonagall is 71 > in CoS. That puts my guess at Molly's age at about 68. That puts a > substantial gap between her and Hagrid, and a smaller but significant > gap between her and McGonagall. > Alisha: I always just assumed that Hagrid spent some time as a gamekeepers assistant before taking on the full responsibilities of the job. Thirteen is a little young to be in charge of the entire grounds at Hogwarts, and it seems like too much of a coincidence that Og left just as Hagrid was expelled. Wouldn't it be possible for Hagrid to have been assisting Og when Molly was in school? It seems for the most part that witches and wizards have children at the same ages as their muggle counterparts. Lucius Malfoy is what, 47? 42? Perfectly normal muggle age to have a 15 year old son. And James and Lily definitely started their family at a young age (even young for most muggles). I agree that the aging process seems to go slower for witches and wizards than for muggles, but I don't think that families are started any later, and I would guess that Molly and Arthur are somewhere in their early to mid 50s. Alisha: whose parents are older than most her friends' parents, but not /that/ old. From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 28 20:49:54 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:49:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C1B7F2.9090304@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131626 Alisha: >>I'm curious as to what makes you place Molly between Hagrid and >>McGonagall. I've always seen her as younger than Hagrid. Could you >>clarify your reasoning for that? >> >> > > >bboyminn: > >Hagrid was 13 fifty years ago when the Chamber was opened. That makes >him 63 during 'Chamber of Secrets'. > >Again in CoS, Molly comments on OG the Gamekeeper before Hagrid. That >makes it appear as if Molly was in school before Hagrid; although, it >is possible that their Hogwarts careers overlapped; > heather now: Ah, but we don't know when Hagrid became gamekeeper, do we? I doubt that he got the job straight after being expelled, at age 13. Besides which, doesn't Hagrid say that DD got him the job? And DD wasn't headmaster until much later. I think DD became HM just around the time that MWPP started at Hogwarts, because of the way Lupin explained that his parents had been worried that he wouldn't be able to go to Hogwarts (after being bit at age 9, IIRC) until DD became HM, then things became OK. Do we even know if Hagrid was gamekeeper while MWPP were at Hogwarts? We know that he *knew* them, but does it say anywhere that he was actually at Hogwarts in that job? I would expect that he was... it's also possible that DD convinced the previous headmaster to hire Hagrid even before he was HM himself. But even so, I doubt it was right after being expelled. Even if he was kept on right away, it would have been as an apprentice under the current fellow (presumably Og). It would take awhile to train him up in all the secrets of the forest and keeping of the grounds, etc. bboyminn: >Molly seems to know who McGonagall is, but gives no sense >of familiarity that you would expect if they had gone to school >together. So Hagrid is 63 in CoS, we can assume that McGonagall is 71 >in CoS. That puts my guess at Molly's age at about 68. That puts a >substantial gap between her and Hagrid, and a smaller but significant >gap between her and McGonagall. > > heather now: Except that McGonagall *IS* described as being "old" in the books. When she gets zapped by the ministry guys, Pomfrey's reaction is "oh my, and at HER AGE", meaning she's old and thus less resistant to direct attacks, less hale and hearty. We never hear anything like that about Molly and Arthur. They're described as still being full of vigour, with no grey hair (heh). Now they aren't YOUNG and they certainly are older than Harry's parents, since Bill is all growed up himself, but they are not described in terms that would make it appear they were in the same generation as McGonagall at all. Anyway, I think this all hinges on when-Hagrid-became-gamekeeper, and as far as I know there is NO canon that says it was at age 13. I expect he would not have officially had the job until he was fully an adult, and probably only after apprenticing as well -- Also remember, the previous gamekeeper would not have been FIRED just so that Hagrid would get a timely position. He stayed there until he retired, then Hagrid took over. heather the buzzard From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 28 21:00:28 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:00:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] BetrRe: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: <20050628181459.25479.qmail@web30312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050628181459.25479.qmail@web30312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42C1BA6C.5020200@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131627 AnitaKH wrote: >This part of your response harkens back to a (somewhat >unfocused) post I made earlier, speculating on the >statement Crouch/Moody makes in Goblet of Fire, >equating the killing of his father to LV killing his >in order to "ensur[e] the rise of the Dark Order." > >If Patricide is part of the ancient ritual of >membership/advancement in the Dark Order, Draco is in >for a nasty surprise, if he chooses DE-hood. This >could lead to the scenario you describe above (Lucius >had better off Draco before it's his turn to die), >Draco "failing the test" because he can't bring >himself to kill his father, or some other >attitude-altering catastrophe. > > heather now: Yes! Thank you, I had deleted your email (and I'm too lazy to remember that I can look them up on Yahoo) but it was your post on that subject that got me thinking of that particular scenario. Basically, last night my brain took a whole bunch of ideas I'd read on this list (your patricide theory, recent stuff about Draco, etc) and put it all together with the dream I'd had and spat out a full-fledged theory of its own. It did the same thing later with stuff about Snape, James and Lily, and LV and that night in GH. Basically, right now I'm thinking that Snape had feelings for Lily, whether or not they were ever returned, and it was that which first prompted him to turn from LV to DD, to protect her (perhaps he'd been having second thoughts about the whole DE thing already, but perhaps not). Add in to that the life-bond-thing from James having saved Snape's life (which so far has only been mentioned as an explanation of why Snape would be so resentful towards the Potters, but the idea of the life-bond hasn't really been explicitly mentioned in terms of Snape ever returning the favour and saving James' life). If Snape himself was the one who told DD about LV's plans, then that explains why DD is sure he can trust him. Anyway, I'm sure that's all already been thought about and talked about, it just 'clicked' nicely in my brain last night. :) anitaKH: >Hmm, this might explain the rather noticeable lack of >grandparents in HP... > > heather: Haha! Except of course for Mrs. Longbottom. Seriously though, I do want to find out what happened to them all... we know that Mr. and Mrs. Potter were around as late as James and Sirius being 16, 17 years old. I presume they were victims of the whole LV situation, but it's never really been explained. Same thing for Mr. and Mrs. Evans, and I suspect that ties in with Petunia's secret, too.... >akh, who want to wish Happy Birthday to all posters >who shares Dobby's big day today! > > heather now: That's me! Wheeeeeeee! heather the buzzard From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jun 28 22:25:53 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:25:53 -0000 Subject: BetrRe: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: <42C14E19.2010901@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: heather: > The whole discussion of "Draco Redeemed" is interesting, and I admit I'd > like to see it, though I was quite unconvinced by any of the offered > scenarios of what would actually *trigger* his change-of-heart. It > would have to be something dramatic, something definite, in my view, > rather than just a re-evaluation-because-I'm-16-and-daddy-is-in- jail > sort of deal. > > Daddy tries to kill him? That would do the job for me. Geoff: First, let me say that what I am about to write does NOT draw any parallels with Draco and the Biblical scenario. I mentioned a day or so ago the conversion of Saul of Tarsus on the way to Damascus to arrest and persecute early Christians (as outlined in Acts chapter 9). Paul underwent such a dramatic change of heart that many people, including the early followers of Jesus, did not believe him and thought it was a trap. He had been present when Stephen was stoned to death for his faith and it has been suggested that the way in which he faced death started trains of thought which Paul did not reecognise until after his meeting with the risen and ascended Christ. But then, on the realisation that he had been going the wrong way, he made the necessary volte-face to accept Christ into his life. Judging by the inter-personal relationships we see between Slytheirns and Gryffindors, the former seem to be lacking in closeness and real friendship and Draco just might have picked up on the warmth within the latter house and actually be envious at the way they watch each other's backs. Couple this with a realisation that perhaps being a DE is not going to lead to a life of luxury and security and the question as to whether he can trust anyone and a few pennies might start to drop for friend Draco. Just thinking aloud..... From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 22:49:27 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:49:27 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "madorganization" wrote: > > bboyminn: > > > > Hagrid was 13 fifty years ago when the Chamber was opened. That > > makes him 63 during 'Chamber of Secrets'. > > > > Again in CoS, Molly comments on OG the Gamekeeper before Hagrid. > > ...edited... > > > > Alisha: > I always just assumed that Hagrid spent some time as a gamekeepers > assistant before taking on the full responsibilities of the job. > Thirteen is a little young to be in charge of the entire grounds at > Hogwarts, and it seems like too much of a coincidence that Og left > just as Hagrid was expelled. Wouldn't it be possible for Hagrid to > have been assisting Og when Molly was in school? > > ...edited.. > > Alisha: bboyminn: When Hagrid actually took over as gamekeeper is irrelevant. The fact is that Molly remembers OG, but seems to have no memories or recollections of Hagrid. Hagrid isn't a have guy to spot, and the Chamber of Secret, explusion of one student, death of another, as well as a few petrification would not be likely to be missed by Molly. If she came to school after these events, Hagrid would still be there training as gamekeeper, and like I said, he's not an easy guy to miss. So, the only conclusion I can reach is that Molly was in school before Hagrid, which makes her older than him. Remember that in terms of muggle aging, Molly and Arthur are mid-forties, and what we see and hear of them is somewhat consistent with that functional age. Keep in mind, that the formula I gave isn't a linear function. At age 18 the functional age gap between wizards and muggles is ZERO. Gradually as they get older that gap widens. At middle age, the gap is there but barely noticable. Just beyond middle age, you look well preserved. But as the age creeps higher, the gap between you actual age and your functional age gets pretty wide. Example: at age 18 the gap is zero, functional and actual age are the same. At actual age 200, you are functionally age 100 making a hundred year gap. My point is that your estimation of Molly's functional age, isn't that much different from my calculated functional age. Molly appears to be mid-forties, but she is actually near twice that age. Just as Dumbledore's actual age is nearly twice his functional age. This has been argued before, but I've have never found much substance in arguments for Molly and Arthur being young. Just one man's opinion. Steve/bboyminn From alishak at spu.edu Tue Jun 28 22:58:04 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:58:04 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131630 > bboyminn: > > When Hagrid actually took over as gamekeeper is irrelevant. The fact > is that Molly remembers OG, but seems to have no memories or > recollections of Hagrid. Hagrid isn't a have guy to spot, and the > Chamber of Secret, explusion of one student, death of another, as well > as a few petrification would not be likely to be missed by Molly. If > she came to school after these events, Hagrid would still be there > training as gamekeeper, and like I said, he's not an easy guy to miss. Alisha: This is presuming that had Molly been at school while Hagrid was gamekeeper (or assistant gamekeeper), she would have mentioned it. As many others have mentioned, absence of proof is not proof of absence. Molly tells Harry her memories of Og because Harry doesn't know of him. She may not mention Hagrid (or Harry may not mention it to us) because we've seen him already. We know about him. Besides, she's reminiscing. You don't reminisce about people who are still around (usually). As far as Hagrid being difficult to miss, I personally notice many things that I choose not to mention to other people, either because they don't seem important to me or because I don't think that they would be interested. At any rate, your arguments for Molly and Arthur being over 60 seem no more solid than the ones I have heard for their being younger than 50. -Alisha From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Jun 28 22:59:23 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:59:23 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: <42C1B7F2.9090304@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131631 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > Alisha: > > >>I'm curious as to what makes you place Molly between Hagrid and > >>McGonagall. I've always seen her as younger than Hagrid. Could you > >>clarify your reasoning for that? > >> > >> > > > > > >bboyminn: > > > >Hagrid was 13 fifty years ago when the Chamber was opened. That makes > >him 63 during 'Chamber of Secrets'. > > > >Again in CoS, Molly comments on OG the Gamekeeper before Hagrid. That > >makes it appear as if Molly was in school before Hagrid; although, it > >is possible that their Hogwarts careers overlapped; > > > > heather now: > Ah, but we don't know when Hagrid became gamekeeper, do we? I doubt > that he got the job straight after being expelled, at age 13. > > Besides which, doesn't Hagrid say that DD got him the job? And DD > wasn't headmaster until much later. I think DD became HM just around > the time that MWPP started at Hogwarts, because of the way Lupin > explained that his parents had been worried that he wouldn't be able to > go to Hogwarts (after being bit at age 9, IIRC) until DD became HM, then > things became OK. Neri: There's a little peace of canon that actually supports this view. Tom Riddle, while bragging about framing Hagrid in the Chamber of Secrets, says: (CoS, Ch. 17 p. 312 US) "Only the Transfiguration teacher, Dumbledore, seemed to think Hagrid was innocent. He convinced Dippet to keep him and train him as gamekeeper" This "train him as gamekeeper" seems to suggest a period of apprenticeship with Ogg. This means the Weasleys can be 60 or even 50 years old. Neri From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 28 23:22:06 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:22:06 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "madorganization" wrote: > > bboyminn: > > > > When Hagrid actually took over as gamekeeper is irrelevant. The > fact > > is that Molly remembers OG, but seems to have no memories or > > recollections of Hagrid. Hagrid isn't a have guy to spot, and the > > Chamber of Secret, explusion of one student, death of another, as > well > > as a few petrification would not be likely to be missed by Molly. > If > > she came to school after these events, Hagrid would still be there > > training as gamekeeper, and like I said, he's not an easy guy to > miss. > > > Alisha: > This is presuming that had Molly been at school while Hagrid was > At any rate, your arguments for Molly and Arthur being over 60 seem > no more solid than the ones I have heard for their being younger > than 50. phoenixgod2000: I agree with Steve. If Molly and Arthur aren't much older than what would be their muggle equivelents, then why are wizards living so much long towards the elderly end of the spectrum? Basically, what you're saying is that wizards have an exceptionally long twilight of their life, which would seem odd. Not to mention a really crappy deal. It makes more sense to follow steves logic and make the entire life cycle of a wizard stretch out longer. From alishak at spu.edu Tue Jun 28 23:51:22 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:51:22 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131633 > phoenixgod2000: I agree with Steve. If Molly and Arthur aren't much > older than what would be their muggle equivelents, then why are > wizards living so much long towards the elderly end of the spectrum? > Basically, what you're saying is that wizards have an exceptionally > long twilight of their life, which would seem odd. Not to mention a > really crappy deal. It makes more sense to follow steves logic and > make the entire life cycle of a wizard stretch out longer. Alisha: I'm not saying that witches and wizards /can't/ have children much later in life, only that it doesn't seem like this particular pair did. I would also think that the animosity between Arthur and Lucius Malfoy indicates that the two of them are close in age (perhaps an animosity carried on from school). We know that Lucius is in his 40s. I can't see Arthur really seeing Lucius in such an antagonistic light if he were 20 years older. -Alisha From jmrazo at hotmail.com Wed Jun 29 00:18:31 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:18:31 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131634 > Alisha: > I'm not saying that witches and wizards /can't/ have children much > later in life, only that it doesn't seem like this particular pair > did. > > I would also think that the animosity between Arthur and Lucius Malfoy > indicates that the two of them are close in age (perhaps an animosity > carried on from school). We know that Lucius is in his 40s. I can't > see Arthur really seeing Lucius in such an antagonistic light if he > were 20 years older. Seemed more like it was work related than school boy related. I think the hostility can simply be explained by the fact that Lucius Malfoy just isn't the type of wizard that Arthur Weasley likes. phoenixgod2000 From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 01:46:08 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:46:08 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131635 Betsy Hp: In fact, IMO part of CoS was to show Harry that, as long as he let his Gryffindor side take lead, the Slytherin side of himself was a necessary and good part of him too. Dumbledore specifically lists Harry's Slytherin traits in a positive way while assuring Harry that he was indeed a Gryffindor. Bookworm: I always wondered what the Sorting Hat was going to say when Harry pulled it off his head while in DD's office. IMO, it was about to say that Harry would have done well in Slytherin, but that since Harry chose Gryffindor he had equal potential to do brave deeds. As in, just because you are good at one thing, doesn't mean that you aren't as good as or better at another. Betsy Hp: Well, if at first you don't succeed.... Part of the reason I have hopes for Draco is that he strikes me as such a lonely little boy. Bookworm: Draco was the one who started the conversation with Harry in Madam Malkins. And on the train, he approached Harry again and offered to help him. Unfortunately for him, his arrogance reminded Harry of Dudley, so his overtures were rejected. I also suspect that his father told him that it might be beneficial for him to get to know Harry ? at least until it was obvious that Harry preferred the Weasleys to the Malfoys. Betsy Hp: He's been truly obnoxious to Harry and friends, and he's said some incredibly hateful things to Hermione (at his father's bidding JKR has very carefully pointed out), Bookworm: Imagine what it would be like to live in Malfoy Manor with only his parents ? such warm, loving people that they are ? and the house elves. He is an only child who apparently does not live up to his father's image of what a Malfoy should be (as seen in Borgin & Burkes). Small wonder that half of what he says starts with, "My father says..." as if he has been discouraged from thinking for himself. Betsy Hp: Then of course, there's the neon flashing sign in the Sorting Hat's Song chapter in OotP where Harry tempts the gods with his flippent, "Friends with Slytherin? Never!" remark while looking Right. At. Draco. Do I smell foreshadowing? Oh yes I do! Bookworm: Actually, he looked at "the Slytherin table where Draco Malfoy was holding court." Subtle difference. While I think you may be right, subtlety *is* JKR's trademark. Betsy Hp: Throughout OotP Draco treated the changes going on at Hogwarts as some sort of lark. It wasn't until his father landed in Azkaban that things stopped being a school-boy game for him, I think. Draco had his father on a very high pedestal and the end of OotP rocked the foundations of Draco's world. I think he's going to go through some major changes in the upcoming book. Where those changes will lead him, I can't wait to find out. Bookworm: Neither can I. Either he is going to be furious with Harry for knocking Lucius off that pedestal and go for revenge, or he will finally start to think for himself and realize that he really doesn't want to be like his father. Or maybe both. ;-) Betsy Hp: And in that sense, I think Draco is *perfect* for the good Slytherin role, because to Harry, Draco *is* Slytherin. Of course, if Draco chooses the wrong path (because I'm hopeful, but not certain) than it will need to be another Slytherin who is *very* Slytherin to serve that role. Bookworm: JKR said on her website (Extras/Edits) "...Theodore is a clever loner .... However, in this [deleted] scene.... we rarely see Draco talking to anybody he considers a real equal, and he is forced to see Theodore as such, because Theodore is just as pure-blooded as he is, and somewhat cleverer." (http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=5) So Theodore is a loner and cleverer than Draco. This is why I think the idea of Theodore Nott is so popular. We don't know what he is like yet, other than this quote, but his father *is* a Death Eater, so his support of the `good' side would mean a break with his family ? choice versus blood. But you've made the most logical explanation for why Draco might be the `good Slytherin' that I've read. Who knows, maybe it will be both of them. Ravenclaw Bookworm From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Jun 29 03:40:35 2005 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:40:35 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131636 My friend had this question. I swear I read something about this here, but I forget, so I'm posthing this :) ----------------------------------------- I suddenly thought about this. How did Sirius really get his parent's house? Yes, it goes to the last living Black, who was him, but he was disowned. Wiped from the Black family tree. Not to be given a cent of their money. Normally, if one is dead and the other disowned (meaning he wasn't alive in the first place, in their minds), then shouldn't the inheritance go to Narcissa or Andromeda? And if it can be handed only to males, shouldn't it all go straight to Draco, the only male left with Black blood? I found this puzzling, at any rate. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 04:23:05 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:23:05 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (mild TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131637 > Neri wrote: > "Umm, I guess you have a perfectly reasonable and innocent reason why > old Sally sneaked a XXXXX classified monster into a school? " > > Del replies: > Go ask Hagrid. He does that all the time. He even deliberately puts > his monsters in contact with the kids, which Slytherin didn't do. > Neri: You still didn't give any explanation. In Hagrid's case the explanation is obvious: he was a stupid and lonely 13 yrs old kid. Moreover, Hagrid's baby monster complex is painted as a rather amusing flaw in a person who is otherwise good and kind, but Salazar's basilisk fits right there with his pureblood mania, his monumental self-portrait and his noble heir, as corroborated by multiple canon sources such as the Sorting Hat, Binns, Dumbledore and Riddle. > Neri wrote: > "In the HP saga, if you're half giant or a werewolf or the son of Dark > wizards or whatever, you are supposed to show in some way that you > aren't bound by your unfortunate ancestry." > > Del replies: > If anything, one of the main rules that JKR has alluded to is: "judge > people individually, not according to who their family or friends are, > or whatever particular trait they have". > Neri: I agree about the family part, less so about the friends. We are mainly supposed to judge people by their choices and actions, which we can't do if the author tells us nothing about them. I already wrote (the part you snipped) that I'm perfectly willing to reconsider Theodore's SNAKE grade with additional data, and in any case he wasn't my point. I wasn't judging an individual here. I was judging an institution, Slytherin House, by the many things we were told about many of its members. > Del: > * Baddock, Malcolm (1994 - 2001) > * Bletchley, Miles > * Bole (1989 - 1995) > * Davis, Tracey (witch) (1991-1998) (HPM) > * Derrick (1989 - 1995) > * Greengrass, Daphne (1991 - 1998) (HPM, OP31) > * Higgs, Terence > * Pritchard, Graham (1994 - 2001) > * Pucey, Adrian (c.1989 - 1996 or 1997) > * Warrington, C. (1989? - 1996) > * Zabini, Blaise (1991 - 1998) > > Miles Bletchley, Bole, and Warrington might be construed as being > not-too-nice. But the others are total unknowns. > > Looks like this might screw up your statistics a bit... > Neri: As you say, we know almost nothing about them, and the little we do know isn't nice. But why do you need to bother with them at all? The 1000 years period that my statistics covers must include many thousands of Slytherins who were never mentioned by name, and maybe they were all saints. That would screw up the statistics even worse. But this is fiction, and JKR can't tell us about all these people. She needs to paint a reliable picture of a whole world by showing us a relatively small number of details and people. JKR chose which Slytherins to show us, and she chose to describe nearly all of them as baddies. Moreover, JKR chose to show us that the values of Slytherin House, the ends-over-means and the pureblood prejudice, are the very things that the good guys are fighting against. JKR shows us the evil overlord as the boy who was a prefect in Slytherin house. She seems to draw a direct line from all those petty Quidditch fouls to the Slytherin official ideology of "using any means to achieve their ends", and from there it's not very far to "there's no good and evil, only power and those too weak to seek it". The deeds of the individuals, in all the different levels of evil, mesh perfectly with the ideology of the house. > Del replies: > Maybe it's you who've been doing some lousy reading, because I > personally have NO problem imagining that Slytherin House is in no way > the block of prejudice, hatred and treachery that some paint it here. > Neri: Well, my lousy reading is based on 20 Slytherins on which we have lots of canon, from diverse sources over 5 books. On what is your imagination based? > I see INDIVIDUALS in Slytherin. I don't see a House. All the > Slytherins are individuals, just like all the Gryffindors, all the > Ravenclaws, and all the Hufflepuffs are individuals. Expecting less > diversity in Slytherin than in any of the other 3 Houses is very lousy > reading IMO. > Neri: Slytherin House can be viewed as a mere collection of individuals, but it can also be viewed as an institution with a 1000 years old celebrated tradition, or even as an abstract concept representing a way of life that a person might choose to embrace or to reject. And JKR indeed describes Slytherin house as such in several key places in the series. > Neri wrote: > "But perhaps the worst news for the House-Slytherin-Isn't-Evil fans > are that JKR (like Voldemort) is now in dire need of evil recruits." > > Del replies: > Draco will possibly bring his gang to LV, just like his father did. > But we know of very few people in Slytherin outside Lucius's gang who > became DEs, so there is no reason to believe that many outside of > Draco's gang will become DEs this time around. > Neri: The number of the DEs is limited. Of course not all Slytherins will become DEs. But Voldemort (and the story) also need supporters who aren't DEs, and almost all Slytherins in canon, even those who aren't DEs, demonstrate that they would gladly support people like Umbridge. But I noticed you didn't address my point at all, so may I ask you, who will the war be fought against? Who will be Voldemort's soldiers and supporters? > And may I remind you that the current Slytherin Head-of-House is > anti-LV, and that the one DE who helped LV come back to life is a > Gryffindor? > Neri: They're both rare exceptions to their houses, and they both seem to change their ways *despite* their house's ideology, not because of it. Snape and Wormtail show that people have free will and can act against the institutions they belong to. But do they also show that the institutions don't exist or that they aren't important? > Neri wrote: > "JKR has been showing us that the roots of evil start at home and at > school, and that evil is created by people and their values, not by > demons and monsters. Surely this is what Slytherin house was invented > for?" > > Del replies: > Writing the Potterverse rules again, are you? Who are you to say why > Slytherin House was invented? Maybe it was invented so kids would > learn, through Harry, that we shouldn't take anybody else's word as to > who our enemy is, and that we shouldn't condemn anyone just because > they happen to be related to an enemy? Neri: Noble sentiments (to quote one notable Slytherin ). But when you write children's books (to quote the Author now) you need to be ruthless. In order to make your important point above in a convincing and dramatic way, JKR first need to have a *real* enemy. And the more believable, well-developed, numerous and evil the enemy, the more dramatic will be the realization that some of it aren't really enemies. Neri From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Jun 29 04:39:40 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:39:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prncssme" wrote: > > Can we please stop accusing each other of supporting or endorsing abuse? I'm still not > convinced that Snape IS the abusive man deserving of an AK or dismemberment but if we > find out in HBP that he is that evil, I will happily reverse my opinion. But if I never go over > to your side of thinking regarding Snape, it still doesn't mean I think emotionally abusing > kids is a jolly good time. > > - Princess Sara No, we can't. Those who endorse or defend Snape's methods (and I know Tonks is not, but some do) ARE endorsing and defending the emotional abuse of children. Sorry if that stings, but I'm not going to quit speaking the truth just because their are some who are uncomfortable hearing it. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Jun 29 04:47:01 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:47:01 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131639 --- In HPforGrownups, Phoenixgod wrote: > > Hogwarts and the Wizarding World have a stupid definition of not that > bad so that doesn't get a pass for me. > > This is after all the society that seems to think that soul sucking > demons should guard students, dragon baiting is a good olympic event, > and the culture at large has the ability to turn on their heroes with > the speed and intelligence of a pack of especially stupid lemmings. > I mean, DD makes me mad, but they turn on him after a hundred years > of reverence. > > These people are DUMB! > > phoenixgod2000 I agree completely. The Wizarding World as we have been shown is a corrupt, backward, and deeply abusive society. The fact that Snape, or anyone else for that matter, is tolerated by the WW standards is no defense WHATSOEVER. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Jun 29 05:17:30 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:17:30 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131640 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > > Lupinlore I know that you love to argue for the fun of it. Of course > I, and I am sure everyone else on both sides of this debate, do not > condone abuse of any kind. That goes without saying, IMO. Actually, you are completely incorrect. I hate and despise arguing, it is one of my most serious emotional weaknesses. And because I hate it so much, and because it is such a glaring weakness, I swore long ago that I would never allow it to keep me from arguing when arguing is called for -- and in the case of Snape's teaching methods, arguing is definitely called for. > > What I am arguing is that Snape fits (as some say) in the *shades of > gray area*. I don't know anything about the modern U.S. school > system and what the rules are there. And since Harry Potter does > not attend a U.S. school, I do not think that information is > relevant anyway. I am thinking about when I was a child and life in > general. Even very nasty people who do seriously emotional abuse > (think Umbridge) are not prosecuted for it because as far as I am > aware it is not against the law anywhere (WW, MW, RW). Physical > abuse is against the law in our RW, but I am not aware of emotional > abuse being so. I suspect that is would be hard to prove. What is > emotionally abusive to one may not be to someone else. (Does that > mean that it is OK to be like Umbridge, of course not.) > Yes, you are write about emotional abuse and the law. That is why schools have standards and regulations above and beyond the law. And that is where Dumbledore, and the WW in general, fail grievously. > When I say that Snape is sometimes emotionally abusive I am thinking > of someone like Neville. Neville is not your typical child. He > grew up in a negative environment at home as far as I can tell. His > grandmother doesn't seem like the nurturing type. And Neville seems > especially sensitive. When he was younger, you could probably just > look at him crossways and he would burst into tears. Yes, it would > be nice if Neville had a loving nurturing teacher, but it has been > my experience that those types of teachers are rare. And very rare > once you get past the 3rd or 4th grade or so. By then you are > expected to be tougher. Some like Neville are not. I understand > that. Some are like Neville their whole life. Does that mean that > when they get out into the real world and have a job and a jack s > for a manager that the manager should be fired? My answer to that > would be yes. But does that happen?? Very, very rarely and when it > does it is because they found some other way to hang them. You are right again. And I would be willing to tolerate Snape in Neville's case if his attitude toward Neville were no worse than for any of the other Gryffindor's - and if Neville were getting some level of support from his Head of House. It reminds me of a situation I once had with a very Snape like teacher. In this case, the Assistant Principal finally pulled me aside and said "Look, X doesn't like students who are Y" -- I won't go into the specifics. "We all know that, and he doesn't dislike you any worse than any other Y's. Unfortunately, life is full of a*holes (and she did actually use that word) and when they're tenured a*holes there isn't much we can do. Just trust that the rest of us aren't stupid and that we know how he is and we aren't about to listen to him or let his opinions ruin your record." I never had any more trouble in this particular teacher's class. Furthermore, that experience gave me the courage, when confronted by an abusive boss later in life, to go to my boss's superior, who said "I can't do much about him, but I can allow you to transfer to a new opening we have available in another office. Thank you for coming to me, else I would not have thought about you for this opportunity." If Neville were only being treated the same as Ron or Seamus or even Hermione, and if we had evidence that he got some kind of support, no matter how stern, from McGonagall (e.g. "I can't do anything about Professor Snape's grading standards but I will speak to him about the personal insults"), then I would say that having an experience with Snape is teaching him a lesson that, regretably, he does need to learn. However, Snape is going *well* out of his way to treat Neville worse even than he treats most Gryffindors, and we *don't* have any evidence that Neville gets any support from his Head of House -- rather the opposite, in fact. > > I am not saying that one should go out of their way to hire nasty > teachers. Basically what I am saying is that on a scale of one to > ten with one being Molly and ten being Umbridge, I think that Snape > is about a 5. And a 5 is OK. (I think that very few of us are a > one on any regular basis. Most of us are probably a 4.) So Snape at > a 5 is strict, no nonsense, with a bit of sarcastic wit perhaps. > And most of the kids can handle it. And with a little help so can > Neville. > Once again, I think Snape may be a 5 (or maybe a six) with the typical Gryffindor, but with *Harry and Neville* he is much worse. Also Neville really *isn't* getting "a little help" from the appropriate sources. > One final thing. Remember how the rest of the staff responded to > Umbridge? Then think of how they interact with Snape. If Snape was > really all that bad don't you think that we would see the rest of > the staff treating him the same as they do Umbridge? But they > don't. And on this point, I rest my case. > Well, I agree with Phoenixgod on this one. The WW is a backward, corrupt, and deeply abusive society. The fact that Snape may be OK by their standards is no defense whatsoever. Lupinlore From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 05:25:05 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:25:05 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Wizard, Muggle, & Phoenix In-Reply-To: <20050628184710.59096.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > The really interesting question re lifespans is, when exactly does > the aging process slow down? Because everyone under the age of, say, Arthur Weasley (who's about 50 yrs old, I think, based on Charlie's and Bill's ages) acts like their muggle equivalents. Does it happen when you hit 60? Does every year suddenly become two years? Or does your metabolism suddenly slow down? > > Because if it's as simple as 1 wizard year = 2 muggle years, then > witches would have babies until they were 80! Tonks: Is it that time slows down? Maybe it speeds up. By that I mean when you are young time is slow, so a year last a long, long time. But as you get older the year moves faster. So once a wizard is say 80 years old time goes faster for them. This would mean that time is normal for a 30 year old and a 50 year old, but for an 80+ year old they live twice as fast and age faster. Or so it seems. That is the only way I can see the difference between Muggles and Wizards. The Muggles sense time moving faster but age the same. The Wizards sense time moving faster and somehow move along with it after age 80. Well this is almost as confusing as TT. ;-) Tonks_op From Schlobin at aol.com Wed Jun 29 06:27:29 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:27:29 -0000 Subject: Clarification - Godparent In-Reply-To: <20050628160540.11224.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131642 First, Dumbledore did indeed believe that Sirius had betrayed Lily and James - he told the Ministry of Magic that the Potters had made Sirius their secret keeper. Second, a godparent might have standing in a U.S. court. A child doesn't necessarily go to biological relatives. If the parents have a will, the court may respect their wishes and give the child to the person the parents designate. Also, anybody can sue for custody of a child --- if a godparent alleged that the aunt and uncle were abusive, for example, the court might place the child with the godparent. Susan McGee, northern California From Schlobin at aol.com Wed Jun 29 06:36:19 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:36:19 -0000 Subject: Whys is Snape allowed to continue spying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131643 > "...it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to > his Death Eaters. > 'No - that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him. > ...... > "Yes, Potter...." > (quotes from OotP stolen from Saraquel's post) > > IIRC, Snape pauses for a moment before his "Yes, Potter" and smirks > as he answers. This passage has always bothered me - Would Snape > willingly agree with Harry about this if it was the truth? And if he > were to confirm this for Harry, would he do it in such a > smug/condescending way? (Granted, Snape reeks of smug attitude, but > usually when he's got the upper hand). If Harry were right about > this, wouldn't it have caught Snape off guard? > > I read this passage in a different way. IMO, Harry assumes he knows > what Snape's job is...but he's wrong. Snape is amused by what he sees > as Harry's arrogance and smugly agrees, instead of clarifying what > he's actually doing for the Order. > > Is there anything in canon that specifically says that Snape is > currently working as a spy? > > I personally think there's something more to Snape's duties than we > know and that there's a big reason they've been kept a secret from > us. Of course...I have no theories on what he could be doing if he's > not a spy. Any takers? :) > > Jenza I agree that it is not explicitly stated that Snape is a spy. However, I think it's implied by the smirked "yes potter". I think someone posting previously might have figured it out...maybe Snape has a relationship with one of the Death Eaters who is giving him information. Is he a double agent? That is, really working for Voldemort? I doubt it. First, he wouldn't have prevented Harry from being killed in the Philosopher's Stone. Second, JKR states that Snape's "redemption" will be a model for at least one other redemption. (I think I'm remembering that correctly.) Susan McGee (if you're over 40 and want a low volume list, you can join Harry Potter for Grownups Over 40 by emailing me at SusanGSMcGee at aol.com) From spherissa at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 04:39:06 2005 From: spherissa at gmail.com (Amanda Coleman) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:09:06 +0930 Subject: Clarification - Godparent In-Reply-To: <20050628160540.11224.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050628160540.11224.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8c20328105062821396dd2a492@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131644 Juli says: No he didn't, JKR says on her website that Sirius was > too busy being a rebel to get married. > > Juli Rissa: A godmother doesn't have to be the spouse of a godfather. I'm not saying JKR hasn't said he didn't have one, I am unsure myself, but from what you have said it's impossible to say whether or not he did. Although I do wonder about Lily's friends... no one ever seems to say "that Mrs Witch was a good friend of Lily's"... Rissa From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jun 29 06:42:13 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:42:13 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C2CF65.8455.11B3AA7@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 131645 On 29 Jun 2005 at 4:39, lupinlore wrote: > No, we can't. Those who endorse or defend Snape's methods (and I know > Tonks is not, but some do) ARE endorsing and defending the emotional > abuse of children. Sorry if that stings, but I'm not going to quit > speaking the truth just because their are some who are uncomfortable > hearing it. Well, let me just say this that I was a child who as a result of his schooling became suicidal for two years, and deeply clinically depressed for about ten years, who became a chronic achiever in terms of his education for about five years, and who still bears significant physical and emotional scars from some of his experiences. And I had some very nice, kind, very compassionate teachers. And I had some who were extremely Snape-like. And the nice, kind, compassionate teachers were the ones who almost *KILLED* me, and the Snape-like teachers were front and centre of the ones who *SAVED* me. I don't go so far as to endorse Snape's methods as a teacher - I'm training to be a teacher myself at the moment, and I would never use many of the methods he uses because I think there are better ways of teaching. But, even though I don't endorse them, I'm always more than a bit disturbed when I see people condemning them. Whether a particular child is 'abused' by a particular method of teaching, is often dependent on that child's individual personality. Methods that seriously harmed me are ones that many of my classmates greatly benefitted from. Methods that I benefitted from were ones that I can easily see harming other children. The reality is that there are no miracle methods in teaching. There may be some methods that are *generally* better than others - but there's no perfect style of teaching. Some kids do well with strict, even nasty teachers. Some kids need love and affection and the gentle touch. A school should have a range of different teacher. If Snape was the *only* teacher at Hogwarts, or if *all* the teachers at Hogwarts taught the way he did, then I'd have very serious concerns for the pupils - but as one teacher in a range - I really don't see a major problem with him. It's true that Snape's methods do seem to be inappropriate for Neville - but Neville is one child in a school of somewhere from 280 to 1000 students (depending on what school of thought you subscribe to). I attended eight schools as a child with a range of different philosophies, including two that are regarded as among the best schools in my country - and at none of those eight schools were *every* teachers methods appropriate for *every* single student. I often found myself as the one among many for whom the 'standard' methods which a particular teacher used didn't work - but I won't condemn a teacher just because their methods don't work for a small number of children - if those methods are working for a lot of children. The first question in my opinion is whether Snape's methods work for any of the kids in his classes - and we do have indications that his results are quite good. Looking at the original question - would an 'O' for Harry vindicate Snape? Well, provided that 'O' came from Snape, it'd go some way to that - but I'd be more interested in knowing how most of the students went. Snape's methods shouldn't be condemned on the basis of whether or not they are less than ideal for one or a few children - but nor should they be condoned on the basis of whether they work for a few. It's the overall effect that matters. Now having said that, unless Neville gets a good mark, there's no way I would condone Snape's treatment of him - even if Snape's general methods can be condoned, a good teacher should make changes where needed - so if Neville's marks do not reflect what he is capable of, then Snape should not have done what he did. But there's a difference between talking about Snape deals with individuals - and how he teaches overall. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 07:16:43 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:16:43 -0000 Subject: Ogg's tomb?? / Re: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131646 > Neri: > There's a little peace of canon that actually supports this view. Tom Riddle, while bragging about framing Hagrid in the Chamber of Secrets,says: > > (CoS, Ch. 17 p. 312 US) > "Only the Transfiguration teacher, Dumbledore, seemed to think Hagrid was innocent. He convinced Dippet to keep him and train him as gamekeeper" > > This "train him as gamekeeper" seems to suggest a period of > apprenticeship with Ogg. Tonks: Hum.. reading this thread has led me down another path. Back to the cemetery on the Hogwarts grounds. And maybe we don't have to dig under Ugg's grave, but Ogg's. The Droobles wrappers again, folks. It all comes back to gum-wrappers. What if there is something about Ogg's grave that we need to see? If he were there when the chamber was opened the first time, and then when Hagrid was expelled he became Hagrid's Master and Hagrid was his apprentice. Hagid may have been an apprentice until Ogg died. We don't know when Ogg died or how. Could Tom Riddle who was still there for a couple more years have hid something under or in Ogg's grave? Here is an interesting tidbit from the Lexicon: --- Ogg Gamekeeper at Hogwarts during Molly Weasley's era, probably the man who held the job before Hagrid. Molly seemed to be rather fond of him (GF31). Ogg's name has interesting associations from both the bible and British folklore. In the bible, Ogg, King of the Bashan, tried to deter the Israelites from conquering the promised land; Ogg has become a name for giant in the Hebrew language. Ogg may also be a reference to the legendary British giants Gog and Magog who guarded the entrance to the royal palace. Their names also have their source in the bible. (--Brewer's Dict. and Lexicon reader Tomer Navot) ---- Note the reference to *guarding the royal palace*. Anything to do with the HBP? As to anagrams for Droobles. There is one with *Bode* and *Ogg's Tomb* but the rest of the leftover letters don't make any sense. Help. Tonks_op From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 07:30:25 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:30:25 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > ... How did Sirius really get his parent's house? > > Yes, it goes to the last living Black, who was him, but he was > disowned. Wiped from the Black family tree. Not to be given a cent > of their money. Normally, if one is dead and the other disowned > (meaning he wasn't alive in the first place, in their minds), then > shouldn't the inheritance go to Narcissa or Andromeda? And if it can > be handed only to males, shouldn't it all go straight to Draco, the > only male left with Black blood? > > I found this puzzling, at any rate. > >Brenda bboyminn: We have discussed the Black Estate before and here is what I have come away with. First are 'Entailments' which are legal conditions tied to an estate that can have legal precedence that can be applied across centuries, in some cases applied to an estate forever. These legal precedents usually limit and control who can get the inheritance and under what conditions, and details what they are allowed to do with the estate. This is usually done in an attempt to preserve the family fortune and prevent it from being diluted with each subsequent death and dispersement by inheritance. Most commonly, the first born son gets everything, with only occassional minor amounts to other brothers and sisters. Further, this same condition of the first born male getting everything, is part of Old English Common Law. Again, to prevent the family fortune from being diluted. So, it would take a legal event of substantial magnitude to prevent Sirius from having undisputed claim to the Black Family Estate. Disowned or not disowned, there would be huge legal precedents in his favor. There may be legal directives and entailments, that transend the wishes of the immediate generation of Blacks. I know there are others here who know more about this than I do, so if I'm off base, please feel free to correct me. Steve/bboyminn who is worried that he may have misused 'precedence' and 'precedents'. From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 29 08:05:16 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:05:16 -0000 Subject: Clarification - Godparent In-Reply-To: <8c20328105062821396dd2a492@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131648 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Amanda Coleman wrote: > Juli says: > > No he didn't, JKR says on her website that Sirius was > > too busy being a rebel to get married. > > > > Juli > > Rissa: > A godmother doesn't have to be the spouse of a godfather. > I know that... you know that... but still JKR said, in the Edinburgh interview posted on her website: "Does Harry have a godmother? If so, will she make an appearance in future books? "No, he doesn't. I have thought this through. If Sirius had married... Sirius was too busy being a big rebel to get married. When Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, just the best friend. At that point it looked as if the Potters would have to go into hiding so obviously they could not do the big christening thing and invite lots of people. Sirius is the only one, unfortunately. I have got to be careful what I say there, haven't I?" I know the married thing is a non-sequitur, but JKR is thinking aloud here and this is where her thought process goes. It may be that Lily did have close pals, but by this time Voldemort had killed/incapacitated (Alice Longbottom?) them, or they had turned to Voldemort, or they aren't important to the story so JKR never mentions them (like Harry apparently never goes to the loo). It may be that she was good friends with Lupin, but couldn't stand the other three... the possibilities are endless. JLV xx From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jun 29 12:18:29 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:18:29 -0000 Subject: Harry doesn't know Re: Lifespans? In-Reply-To: <001e01c57c10$c46b1440$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131649 Potioncat asked: > >And another thought just crossed my mind; I wonder how many of the old Headmasters DD actually knew. Ffred answered: snip > Given that Marchbanks is that much older than Dumbledore, it's not > impossible that Dippet was already Head when Dumbledore went to school in > the 1850s, perhaps aged about 100 when he took on the job.. > > It's not explicit as to whether there was another Head between Dippet and > Dumbledore. > > I'd go for a minimum of one, but more likely two Potioncat wonders again: Well, as I make it out, and I'm as good with math as JKR is, Phineas Nigellus could have been born born around 1815. (One of many possible dates) That makes him only about 25 years older than Dumbledore. I wonder if PN was the Headmaster before Dippet? Although, he seems too young, doesn't he? Or could he have been between Dippet and Dumbledore? You would think if he was too long ago, Sirius wouldn't know much about him. And for that matter, I wonder how Sirius knew PN was so unpopular? Here's how I came up with a possible date. For an arbitrary reason, I made most of the generations 30 years. That's on the older side. I also made Sirius' parents older than that, given that Mrs. Black is an elderly witch in her portrait. So: Sirius b 1960, Mr. Black 1915, grandfather 1875, Great- grandfather 1845 (about DD's year), great-great-grandfather 1815 (Phineas). It makes sense that DD might have had reason to know several of the Headmasters either as a student or a teacher or just in the WW. How does that sound? And, now it crosses my mind, those Blacks don't live very long lives, do they? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 13:46:48 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:46:48 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (mild TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131650 Neri wrote: "You still didn't give any explanation. In Hagrid's case the explanation is obvious: he was a stupid and lonely 13 yrs old kid. Moreover, Hagrid's baby monster complex is painted as a rather amusing flaw in a person who is otherwise good and kind," Del replies: In PS/SS, Hagrid keeps a baby dragon (classified XXXXX) in his hut, and lets 3 11-year-old kids come close to it and even handle it. In CoS, he sends 2 12-year-old kids to the lair of a tribe of fully-grown Acromantulas (XXXXX). In PoA, he makes 13-year-old kids interact with fully-grown Hippogriffs (XXX). In GoF, he breeds the Blast-Ended Skrewts (not classified as Hagrid created them, but their "parents" are classified respectively XXXXX (Manticore) and XXX (Fire-crab)), and then has 14-year-old kids take care of them. In OoP, he asks a couple of 15-year-old kids to take care of a fully-grown Giant (extremely dangerous and violent beings, who are immune to many spells). This is way more than just a "baby monster complex", and though it is sometimes amusing, it is also often amazingly dangerous, even life-threatening. Neri wrote: "but Salazar's basilisk fits right there with his pureblood mania, his monumental self-portrait and his noble heir, as corroborated by multiple canon sources such as the Sorting Hat, Binns, Dumbledore and Riddle." Del replies: Salazar never unleashed his basilisk, which was kept shut inside the mouth of the statue inside the CoS and who had to be called, and he never made anyone look at his statue. Those things remained hidden for many hundreds of years. The basilisk was completely HARMLESS as long as nobody went and looked for it, and then *decided to use it*. As for the Heir of Slytherin, CoS seems to imply that it is Tom who went and looked for the CoS, not Slytherin who went and recruited Tom. In short: it is TOM who unleashed the Basilisk, it is TOM who gave flesh to the legend of the Heir of Slytherin. NOT Salazar. Sure Salazar put the Basilisk in the CoS to start with (or so it seems anyway), but we have only second-hand accounts as to WHY he did it, and what it intended it to do. Neri wrote: "I agree about the family part, less so about the friends." Del replies: Which is why it is particularly unfair to judge Theo by his family, since JKR made a point to tell us that he is NOT one of Malfoy's gang. That doesn't automatically mean that he doesn't agree with Malfoy, granted, but he is NOT one of his friends. Neri wrote: "We are mainly supposed to judge people by their choices and actions, which we can't do if the author tells us nothing about them." Del replies: Exactly! This is why I object so strongly to judging characters we know next-to-nothing about. Neri wrote: "I wasn't judging an individual here. I was judging an institution, Slytherin House, by the many things we were told about many of its members. " Del replies: Many?? 20 people, you call that many?? By that standard, all Whites are racist, all Christians are anti-semitic, and all Germans were Nazis. Does Slytherin House spawn lots of Dark Wizards? Yes, it does, we know that from the very beginning. But: 1. All Dark Wizards are not necessarily supporters of LV, as shown by the example of the Blacks. 2. Even if half of Slytherin turns out Dark, that doesn't say anything about the other half. Neri wrote: "As you say, we know almost nothing about them, and the little we do know isn't nice." Del replies: Hum no, I said that 3 out of 11 could be construed as not-nice, and that's only because they did ONE bad action. Neri wrote: "But why do you need to bother with them at all? The 1000 years period that my statistics covers must include many thousands of Slytherins who were never mentioned by name, and maybe they were all saints. That would screw up the statistics even worse. But this is fiction, and JKR can't tell us about all these people. She needs to paint a reliable picture of a whole world by showing us a relatively small number of details and people. JKR chose which Slytherins to show us, and she chose to describe nearly all of them as baddies. " Del replies: Many problems in your reasoning: 1. JKR did NOT describe nearly all the Slytherins we have met as baddies. 20 out of 31 (if I got my numbers right) is not "nearly all", and even among those 20, quite a few are not Eeevil, just not-nice. 2. JKR deliberately did NOT extrapolate on some very significant Slytherin characters, namely Theo Nott, Blaise Zabini, and Daphne Greengrass. She took the pain of letting us know that they exist, that they are Slytherins in Harry's year, that Harry has many classes with them but never interacts with them, and that he didn't even know the name of one of them until his 5th year. I call that MAJOR information. 3. JKR mainly introduces us to the people who *interact* with Harry. We don't know the names of most Gryffindors because Harry doesn't interact with them. We learned about Luna when Harry discovered her, even though Neville, for example, already knew about her. So it makes perfect sense that we shouldn't know about most Slytherins, quite simply because Harry doesn't interact with them. Moreover, it makes perfect sense that almost all the Slytherins we do know should be baddies, since this is the REASON Harry interacts with them! Harry knows about Crabbe and Goyle because they are Malfoy's cronies. Harry knows about Pansy Parkinson because she supports Malfoy. Harry knows about the DEs because they are LV's supporters. Of course, the next question is then: how come Harry never interacts positively with a Slytherin? Good question, I grant you that THIS is suspect. However, if you take a look at the "political" situation in Hogwarts, you'll see that this is very unlikely, because of one thing: Malfoy. Who are the Slytherins Harry could interact positively with? They are mostly those he has classes with. But most of those Slytherins belong to Malfoy's gang. We know that Theo Nott is a loner, which means that he is not interested in being in Malfoy's gang, but then he has no reason to befriend Harry either precisely because he is a loner. Blaise Zabini and Daphne Greengrass both seem to keep under Harry's radar, and it is very probable that they would try to keep under Draco's radar too, because nobody would want to have the main bully of their House on their case. What other Slytherins could positively interact with Harry? Harry doesn't belong to any club, except for Quidditch, which is a *competitive* club, so inter-House befriending is pretty hard there (romance is another matter). Slytherin and Gryffindor sit on opposite sides in the Great Hall, they live as far away from each other as they could (Gryffindor up a tower, Slytherin in the dungeons). Any Slytherin who would want to befriend Harry would have to do so in the open, they would have to go out of their way to go and see Harry, and that would inevitably be told to Draco at one time or the other. Considering Draco's power, I have no problem seeing why no Slytherin would bother trying to befriend Harry. I mean, it's not like they have a *reason* to purposely befriend Harry, do they? Neri wrote: "Moreover, JKR chose to show us that the values of Slytherin House, the ends-over-means and the pureblood prejudice, are the very things that the good guys are fighting against. JKR shows us the evil overlord as the boy who was a prefect in Slytherin house. She seems to draw a direct line from all those petty Quidditch fouls to the Slytherin official ideology of "using any means to achieve their ends", and from there it's not very far to "there's no good and evil, only power and those too weak to seek it". The deeds of the individuals, in all the different levels of evil, mesh perfectly with the ideology of the house. " Del replies: I agree. But I also notice that JKR showed us non-Slytherins fitting the Slytherin ideology: Peter Pettigrew ("no good or evil"), Percy Weasley ("any means to achieve their ends"), who were both *Gryffindors* and so supposedly counter-Slytherins. She showed us members of each of the 3 Houses who don't clearly fit the stereotype of their House (Percy and Peter, Luna, and Zacharias Smith). So I have really no problem envisioning that several Slytherins might be far from the Stereotypical Bad Slytherin. Neri wrote: "Well, my lousy reading is based on 20 Slytherins on which we have lots of canon, from diverse sources over 5 books. On what is your imagination based? " Del replies: 1. On 3 individual Slytherins whom we SHOULD have seen acting badly towards Harry or Hermione by now, and who are still yet unknowns. That speaks LOADS to me. 2. On the fact that none of the other 3 Houses is anything like an ideological block. 3. On the fact that the biggest student bully in the school is in Slytherin, which is a big explanation as to why the more peaceful and friendly Slytherins would keep their heads low. Neri wrote: "Slytherin House can be viewed as a mere collection of individuals, but it can also be viewed as an institution with a 1000 years old celebrated tradition, or even as an abstract concept representing a way of life that a person might choose to embrace or to reject. And JKR indeed describes Slytherin house as such in several key places in the series. " Del replies: It is obvious that people like Draco or Sirius did indeed see Slytherin House that way. Just like the Weasleys seem to see more in Gryffindor than just a House. But that doesn't in any way mean that everyone who is Sorted into Slytherin sees that House that way. The Sorting Hat, in particular, doesn't seem to consider Slytherin House in that strict view. Neri wrote: "The number of the DEs is limited." Del replies: By what? I counted 23 people on the Original Order of the Phoenix picture, and they were supposed to have been out-numbered 20 to one. That's roughly 400 DEs. Way enough room to include all of Slytherin House. Neri wrote: "Of course not all Slytherins will become DEs. But Voldemort (and the story) also need supporters who aren't DEs, and almost all Slytherins in canon, even those who aren't DEs, demonstrate that they would gladly support people like Umbridge." Del replies: How do they demonstrate that?? It's pretty much Draco's usual gang that enrolls in the IS, and they are FAR from being a majority in Slytherin House. I know I use their names a lot, but can you show me ANYWHERE in the canon where it says that Theo Nott, Blaise Zabini or Daphne Greengrass support people like Umbridge? Neri wrote: "But I noticed you didn't address my point at all, so may I ask you, who will the war be fought against? Who will be Voldemort's soldiers and supporters? " Del replies: What about those people who joined in the Muggle-torture at the QWC? For that matter, who were LV's soldiers and supporters last time around? Neri wrote: "They're both rare exceptions to their houses, and they both seem to change their ways *despite* their house's ideology, not because of it. Snape and Wormtail show that people have free will and can act against the institutions they belong to. But do they also show that the institutions don't exist or that they aren't important? " Del replies: * Peter Pettigrew did NOT change. He was always sucking up to the biggest bully on the field, according to Sirius and Remus. * We don't know why Snape changed sides, and we definitely do NOT know if he changed anything in his thinking. He obviously still thinks that niceness and fairness are not necessary, and that any means, no matter how petty, is allowed to achieve his ends (breaking Harry's vial so he can give him a zero and get some revenge, for example). As for the existence and importance of the institutions: I never said they don't exist or don't matter. I just said that we can't simply assume that someone buys into an institution's ideology wholesale simply because they belong to it. Especially since in the case of Slytherin and purebloodism, it never says anywhere that one has to BELIEVE in purebloodism to become a Slytherin. It seems logical that all those who do believe in it will end up in Slytherin, but there is no proof that the reverse is true (ie that all those who end up in Slytherin believe in purebloodism). Neri wrote: "Noble sentiments (to quote one notable Slytherin ). But when you write children's books (to quote the Author now) you need to be ruthless. In order to make your important point above in a convincing and dramatic way, JKR first need to have a *real* enemy. And the more believable, well-developed, numerous and evil the enemy, the more dramatic will be the realization that some of it aren't really enemies. " Del replies: OK, that I can agree with :) However, I don't think there is any more need to show Slytherin as the enemy. It has been showcased in that light right from the beginning. The school bully is a Slytherin, and he becomes Harry's personal enemy very quickly. The Slytherin Quidditch team is the only one who resorts to fouls. Slytherin creates the "Potter stinks" badges and spreads them around. Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw often side with Gryffindor against Slytherin. Big Bad Slytherin is presented as something of a monster (complete with the monkey-like face on his statue). And so forth and so on. Now I think it's time Harry got to know the Slytherins a bit better, and realised they are not all Draco's followers, nor would-be DEs. And maybe, just maybe, some of them will even turn out to be very decent people, and yet proud to be Slytherins :) Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 14:21:34 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:21:34 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131651 Lupinlore wrote: "The Wizarding World as we have been shown is a corrupt, backward, and deeply abusive society. The fact that Snape, or anyone else for that matter, is tolerated by the WW standards is no defense WHATSOEVER." Del replies: Oh yes it is!!! Circumstances and the local law are paramount in determining the gravity of an act. RL example: nobody in the US will be condemned to death for smuggling a bit of coke. But an American can be condemned to death in some Asian countries for doing so. Would Snape be condemned for his teaching methods in the RW? Yes of course. But the point is: he is NOT in the RW. And THAT is all that matters. The law and the morality where HE lives are not against what he is doing, and that is a more-than-sufficient defense for his actions. Trying to prosecute Snape for something that is considered neither illegal nor immoral in his world is pointless. What is necessary is to change the law and/or the morality in the WW. What Harry and the others must do is *make the WW disapprove legally and/or morally of Snape's actions*. Then Snape's condemnation will come automatically if he keeps acting the same way. I think this is precisely what DD is aiming for: a change of heart in the WW society. Not just a change of policy, but a true change of heart. Del From jmoses22002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 11:02:58 2005 From: jmoses22002 at yahoo.com (jmoses22002) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:02:58 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131652 Steve/bboyminn: > snip < > ...it would take a legal event of substantial magnitude to prevent > Sirius from having undisputed claim to the Black Family Estate. > Disowned or not disowned, there would be huge legal precedents in his > favor. There may be legal directives and entailments, that transend > the wishes of the immediate generation of Blacks. I see only one problem with this theory. I believe Sirius was a fugitive at the time. If he was, he wouldn't have a legal claim to anything. I believe that it was more along the lines of he got there first and hid it. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. - -jmoses From pipes814 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 13:23:40 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:23:40 -0000 Subject: That Night at Godric's Hollow - a discussion of what I'll be looking out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131653 I've been most interested in what this chapter "13 years in the brewing" could be. I'm thinking it may involve Petunia reading Dumbledore's letter and her reaction to everything in it. I believe there is a little more to Petunia than we've seen and I look forward to finding out soon. From bethg2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 14:41:36 2005 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (Beth) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:41:36 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131654 I've always wondered if Ma and Pa Black had a change of "heart" about Sirius after he was accused of being the #2 dark wizard in the country. That seems like something that would make his mother proud, although his mother's portrait must have the correct information now. Beth > ----------------------------------------- > > I suddenly thought about this. How did Sirius really get his parent's > house? > > Yes, it goes to the last living Black, who was him, but he was > disowned. Wiped from the Black family tree. Not to be given a cent of > their money. Normally, if one is dead and the other disowned (meaning > he wasn't alive in the first place, in their minds), then shouldn't the > inheritance go to Narcissa or Andromeda? And if it can be handed only > to males, shouldn't it all go straight to Draco, the only male left > with Black blood? > > I found this puzzling, at any rate. From labmystc at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 14:41:42 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:41:42 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131655 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Lupinlore wrote: > "The Wizarding World as we have been shown is a corrupt, backward, and > deeply abusive society. The fact that Snape, or anyone else for that > matter, is tolerated by the WW standards is no defense WHATSOEVER." > > Del replies: > Oh yes it is!!! OH NO IT IS NOT!!! > > Circumstances and the local law are paramount in determining the > gravity of an act. Circumstances and the local law are NOT paramount when it comes to the actions perpetrated by someone on another individual. The standards of the individual being attacked is what matters in instances like these. WW authorities, Snape, DD, and whatever adult you can name in this book may find it ok that Snape uses these methods with the children he is teaching. However, if the children THEMSELVES OR THEIR PARENTS feel like it is a problem, then it is a problem no matter what the law states. > And THAT is all that matters. The law and the morality where HE lives > are not against what he is doing, and that is a more-than-sufficient > defense for his actions. That is NOT all that matters! Who dictates morality standards to a society? It is not the authorities in charge, that is for sure! My president has a different state of morality altogether different than that of my own. Morality is something that each individual defines on his or her own. It is not set in law, it is not established by a governing society, and it is certainly not taught by a teacher in school. If the kids in this story feel like they are being mistreated, then they are being mistreated, regardless of what WW law states or allows. It is up to the individual to decide what violates his or her own morality, not a governing official. You live in France right? Do you have children? Would you like for them to be mistreated in this way at their school? What if Jacques Chirac decided one day to make it law that kids could be beaten within an inch of their life for underperforming in school? Would that be ok with you? According to you it would be since law and morality are dictated by the people in charge. I think you would find that there would be a problem with this. Or does your individual morality say different? > Trying to prosecute Snape for something that is considered neither > illegal nor immoral in his world is pointless. Who said anything about prosecution? All I would want is that he (a) change his teaching methods and the way he personally deals with these children or (b) his termination. Personally, since I think he knows his stuff, he should simply change his methods, quit the personal attacks, and teach these kids what he knows in a constructive manner. Also, there is a little thing called respect. As a teacher, he deserves respect, but only if it is EARNED! So far in these books, I have seen him do very little to earn any one of these students' respect. He holds a grudge against a child for something his father did in the past, he criticizes a child who may or may not have a learning disability, and he conducts punishment in an unfair manner. Basically, he is a bully, and thinks he can intimidate someone smaller and less powerful than him. I, for one, hope that in the last two books, somehow, someway, Snape learns his lesson. They're going to need him in this war. Chris labmystc From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 29 14:43:02 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:43:02 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (mild TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131656 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > > Neri wrote: > > "Umm, I guess you have a perfectly reasonable and innocent reason why old Sally sneaked a XXXXX classified monster into a school? " > > > > Del replies: > > Go ask Hagrid. He does that all the time. He even deliberately puts his monsters in contact with the kids, which Slytherin didn't do. > > Pippin: Better yet, ask Dumbledore. What about that three-headed dog, eh? If Dumbledore had been driven from the school (which has happened twice now), leaving behind only the warning that anyone who ventures into the third floor corridor will meet a sudden and violent death, who knows what sort of wild stories would have grown up after a thousand years? I doubt the Chamber has yielded up all its Secrets. It could be the basilisk was meant to be a treasure guardian, not an instrument of genocide. > > Neri: > You still didn't give any explanation. In Hagrid's case the explanation is obvious: he was a stupid and lonely 13 yrs old kid. Moreover, Hagrid's baby monster complex is painted as a rather amusing flaw in a person who is otherwise good and kind, but Salazar's basilisk fits right there with his pureblood mania, his monumental self-portrait and his noble heir, as corroborated by multiple canon sources such as the Sorting Hat, Binns, Dumbledore and Riddle. Pippin: The Sorting Hat also tells us that Slytherin and Gryffindor were good friends. So either Slytherin was always a phony (and some how I think old Godric was more discerning than that --- he hasn't picked many phonies for Gryffindor House, has he?) or Slytherin deteriorated *after* his brains were picked for the Hat. In which case the Hat may be only looking for ethnic pride, not racism. There is a difference. > Neri: > The number of the DEs is limited. Of course not all Slytherins will become DEs. But Voldemort (and the story) also need supporters who aren't DEs, and almost all Slytherins in canon, even those who aren't DEs, demonstrate that they would gladly support people like Umbridge. > > But I noticed you didn't address my point at all, so may I ask you, > who will the war be fought against? Who will be Voldemort's soldiers > and supporters? Pippin: According to Sirius, mostly people he has tricked, jinxed or blackmailed into following him. Plus that army of 'creatures whom all fear' Voldie talked about in GoF, and which we saw him recruiting in OOP. Giants, goblins, dementors and others with a grievance against wizardkind. And, sadly, a few individuals so damaged that they take joy in evil. But Slytherin initially was not one of those, to judge by his friendship with Godric, and it's not clear that the Hat preferentially puts such people in Slytherin. To embrace murder as a way of life, JKR seems to be saying, you need a flawed character *and* a flawed ethical system. It is not clear that the people the Hat picks for Slytherin have more character flaws than the others. Draco seems to be one of those who takes joy in evil, but we know nothing about whether the rest of the Slyths are like that. Pippin From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 29 15:12:03 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:12:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lifespans?... Wizard, Muggle, & Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050629151203.21083.qmail@web26308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131657 Tonks: Is it that time slows down? Maybe it speeds up. By that I mean when you are young time is slow, so a year last a long, long time. But as you get older the year moves faster. Hells: I find it easier looking at the lifespans from a biological view. I think there is a big difference between maturing and ageing. Our bodies grow and mature until we pass puberty and reach our adult height. After this our bodies begin to age. Ageing is caused by our cells making minute mistakes as they replicate themselves. It's just like making copy after copy of a video, after a few copies you can see a big difference in the picture quality. In humans the result is wrinkles, our organs working less efficiently, and everything else we associate with ageing. I think magical bodies work the same way, but that the cells can replicate magically with less mistakes. This would lead to wizards maturing at the same rate as muggles, but ageing far more slowly. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PCcalling worldwide with voicemail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 15:28:31 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:28:31 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: Chris said: Also, there is a little thing called respect. As a teacher, he deserves respect, but only if it is EARNED! So far in these books, I have seen him do very little to earn any one of these students' respect. Tonks: NO, NO, NO!! Snape does not have to *EARN* the respect of his students. Snape and even Umbridge (oh I can't believe that I am including *that* nasty woman in this), but yes even Umbridge deserve the respect of their office. We don't have to like them personally or even have respect for them personally, but we do have to have respect for them in the position that they are in. To do otherwise is to be uncivilized. In a civilized society people treat each other with respect even when they hate them intensely. I know you are going to say.. "That is what Snape should be doing and he isn't.. yata, yata". But even when the other person is a jerk, there is no reason to stoop to the same level. As the saying goes "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and soon everyone will be blind and toothless". We can be civil even to Umbridge. Have we learned nothing from McGonagall's advice to Harry? She is right, you know. I tend to be the outspoken one who says "wait, something isn't right here" and go on to give the Umbridges of the world a nasty time. And I can tell you that this type of a response is a stupid thing to do. Not only does it get you in deep trouble politically, but it makes you no better than *them*. I am not saying that fighting for social change is wrong, what I am saying is that Gandhi's way is better than the rebel leader hell bent on destroying the other guy. Children can know in their heart that a teacher is not right in what they do, but it is their place as children in a civilized society to say "yes Sir" just the same. Also if they can do that without burning inside with rage it is even better. The point here is the *burning inside* will give you ulcers, etc. I speak from experience here too. Hating someone else, even when justified doesn't harm *Them*, it harms *you*. As I have said to others at times when in a bad work environment "just wait a bit, give them enough rope and they will hang themselves, we won't have to do it for them". And time and time again I have been right. The nasty boss, teacher, whatever, will do themselves in, without our help. And burning with rage only destroys us, not them. Easier said than done, I know. Much easier to rage. But not good for our physical health. Now before everyone responds with "you want kids to shut up and not tell about being abused, etc." That is NOT what I said. Tonks_op From karen at dacafe.com Wed Jun 29 15:29:59 2005 From: karen at dacafe.com (kmcbears1) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:29:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131659 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prncssme" wrote: > > > > Can we please stop accusing each other of supporting or > endorsing abuse? I'm still not > > convinced that Snape IS the abusive man deserving of an AK or > dismemberment but if we > > find out in HBP that he is that evil, I will happily reverse my > opinion. But if I never go over > > to your side of thinking regarding Snape, it still doesn't mean I > think emotionally abusing > > kids is a jolly good time. > > > > - Princess Sara > > No, we can't. Those who endorse or defend Snape's methods (and I know > Tonks is not, but some do) ARE endorsing and defending the emotional > abuse of children. Sorry if that stings, but I'm not going to quit > speaking the truth just because their are some who are uncomfortable > hearing it. > > Lupinlore This is a fictional story. Snape's actions are to advance the story and not to condone or condemn actions in real life. Supporting Snape's actions in the story does not mean they are endorsing or defending abuse of children in real life. In my case, I am supporting the actions of a fictional character in the context of the fictional story line. I find Snape a very complex personality to discuss. We do not know everything. We only see Snape through Harry's eyes. This is a prejudicial view point. Harry's negative view of Snape began on his first night at Hogwarts when Harry associated his scar hurting with Snape looking at him. Snape's attitude did not help in the first class to make Harry feel more positive about them. I have not posted in a long time due to bias on this topic. But I could not keep silent when you lumped supporters of a fictional character's action in context of the story line as pro-child abuse. - kmcbears From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 15:32:19 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:32:19 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131660 Chris labmystc wrote: "Circumstances and the local law are NOT paramount when it comes to the actions perpetrated by someone on another individual. The standards of the individual being attacked is what matters in instances like these." Del replies: I completely disagree. If what Person A does to Person B is neither immoral nor illegal by society's standards, then it is entirely Person B's problem if they don't like it. Example: back when I was working, I did not like the sexual pics and jokes that my coworker pinned all around his work station, but because this was neither illegal nor immoral, I had no recourse but to swallow it. On the other hand, I could threaten them with legal action when they smoked around me, because it is illegal to smoke inside buildings. Note: it also works the other way. If Person B considers that it is OK to beat up people, and consequently doesn't have a problem with someone beating them up, it doesn't change the fact that in many countries Person A can be prosecuted for beating up Person B. Other example: a 14-year-old girl might have no problem personally with girls her age having sexual relationships with 30-year-old men, but in some countries her 30-year-old lover will be prosecuted anyway. Chris labmystc wrote: "WW authorities, Snape, DD, and whatever adult you can name in this book may find it ok that Snape uses these methods with the children he is teaching. However, if the children THEMSELVES OR THEIR PARENTS feel like it is a problem, then it is a problem no matter what the law states." Del replies: Yes it is a problem. TO THEM. But it doesn't have to be a problem to anyone else - not to Snape, not to DD, not to anyone. Nobody has any kind of obligation to share their point of view, and nobody has to effect a change just to satisfy them. Chris labmystc wrote: "That is NOT all that matters! Who dictates morality standards to a society? It is not the authorities in charge, that is for sure!" Del replies: I never said that. Chris labmystc wrote: "Morality is something that each individual defines on his or her own." Del replies: That's *personal* morality. But nobody's personal morality defines what a society finds morally acceptable or not. Some people have a very "low" morality and find many things acceptable that society finds repulsive. Inversely, many people find that some things that are accepted by society are morally offensive to them. Chris labmystc wrote: "If the kids in this story feel like they are being mistreated, then they are being mistreated, regardless of what WW law states or allows. It is up to the individual to decide what violates his or her own morality, not a governing official." Del replies: It is their right to do so, but it is nobody else's duty to agree with them. If someone feels violated because I looked at them, it's their problem, not mine. Nobody has a right to force me to apologise or to look the other way. If I feel sexually harrassed because a co-worker has a nude female pic on his computer, that's my problem, not his. Nobody has a right to force him to apologise or to take that pic off his computer screen. Chris labmystc wrote: "You live in France right? Do you have children? Would you like for them to be mistreated in this way at their school? What if Jacques Chirac decided one day to make it law that kids could be beaten within an inch of their life for underperforming in school? Would that be ok with you? According to you it would be since law and morality are dictated by the people in charge. I think you would find that there would be a problem with this. Or does your individual morality say different?" Del replies: Many misconceptions in here, some important, some not. 1. I don't live in France anymore, but that is of no consequence to your point. 2. Unless I'm mistaken, Jacques Chirac, as the President, doesn't have the right to make such laws, but that doesn't matter. 3. I never said that it was the governing bodies who determined what was moral, though they obviously determine what is legal. 4. Living in a democracy with a constitution means that this kind of scenario as you described can't happen. Such a law would be anti-constitutional, so it couldn't be passed. I notice, however, that we have never heard of a WW constitution, which explains that Umbridge was able to pass all those Educational Decrees. They would have been deemed anti-constitutional in many RW democratic countries. 5. My personal morality does come at odds with the law and the general morality quite often. But because my personal morality doesn't have any power on other people, I just have to swallow what is legal, and I can only try to fight what is generally considered moral. Chris labmystc wrote: "All I would want is that he (a) change his teaching methods and the way he personally deals with these children or (b) his termination. " Del replies: Why should any of this happen? Just because YOU have a problem with his teaching methods doesn't mean anybody else should have a problem with them too. If Snape doesn't have a problem with them, he has no reason to change them. And if DD has no problem with them, he has no reason to fire Snape. You are asking that Snape act as a convict by either reforming or being put away, when he is NOT a convict, and can't be one since what he is doing is neither illegal nor considered immoral by his society. Chris labmystc wrote: "Personally, since I think he knows his stuff, he should simply change his methods, quit the personal attacks, and teach these kids what he knows in a constructive manner." Del replies: Should? But WHY should he do that? "Should" implies that there is some kind of obligation, but Snape has NO such obligation, of any kind. Chris labmystc wrote: "Also, there is a little thing called respect. As a teacher, he deserves respect, but only if it is EARNED!" Del replies: That's your point of view, but it doesn't seem to be his, nor DD's, and *their* opinion is what matters in the Potterverse. Chris labmystc wrote: "So far in these books, I have seen him do very little to earn any one of these students' respect. He holds a grudge against a child for something his father did in the past, he criticizes a child who may or may not have a learning disability, and he conducts punishment in an unfair manner. Basically, he is a bully, and thinks he can intimidate someone smaller and less powerful than him." Del replies: How unusual in the WW... Chris labmystc wrote: "I, for one, hope that in the last two books, somehow, someway, Snape learns his lesson." Del replies: What lesson?? That he "should" be nice? I'm afraid this is not a necessary basic life lesson. It's NICE when people decide to include it in their own list of commandments, but there is *absolutely NO obligation of any kind* to do so. Not being nice is not breaking any legal or moral rule. If Snape is fine with being not-nice, who is anyone to tell him that he is wrong? As you said, everyone decides their own morality, and Snape obviously chose that being nice or fair wasn't necessary. That's his morality, and as long as he respects the law, he is perfectly entitled to it. Chris labmystc wrote: "They're going to need him in this war." Del replies: He's going to be useful whether he changes or not. Now don't get me wrong: I WISH he would change. I WISH he would be nicer, especially to Neville. But I am very aware that he has absolutely NO OBLIGATION to change. He is ENTITLED to remain a jerk, without having to endure any kind of punishment for it, since obviously the WW doesn't have a problem with his behaviour. Del From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 15:32:46 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050629153246.20160.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131661 Steve/bboyminn: (snip) ...it would take a legal event of substantial magnitude to prevent Sirius from having undisputed claim to the Black Family Estate. Disowned or not disowned, there would be huge legal precedents in his favor. There may be legal directives and entailments, that transend the wishes of the immediate generation of Blacks. Jmoses wrote: I see only one problem with this theory. I believe Sirius was a fugitive at the time. If he was, he wouldn't have a legal claim to anything. I believe that it was more along the lines of he got there first and hid it. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. Juli replies: The way I see it, only a BLACK could get the Black Family fortune, as Sirius is the Last Black. You say that someone may challenge it, say Narcissa Malfoy or Bellatrix Letrange, they may have Black blood but none of them are Blacks, they changed their last names, so legally they aren't Blacks. Let's think who knows that Sirius' got 12GP: DD and the OoP, HRH, the Malfoys, the Letrange, and other DEs, right. If any of them claimed that Sirius had taken tha Black house and fortune they would be in trouble with the MoM because: 1) They know where a fugitive is hidding and they haven't told the MoM, 2) How did they find out if they aren't on LV's side?. Sirius may have started to live at 12GP only during OoP, but he owned it long before that, since his mother died (8 years ago?) he was the rightful owner of the Black estate, so why would anyone challenge it years after that? If Narcissa or Bella wanted the house they could have challenged it years ago when Mrs Black died, not now. Juli Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From hambtty at triad.rr.com Wed Jun 29 15:35:36 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:35:36 -0000 Subject: Ogg's tomb?? / Re: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131662 --- Tonks: Hum.. reading this thread has led me down another path. Back to the cemetery on the Hogwarts grounds. And maybe we don't have to dig under Ugg's grave, but Ogg's. The Droobles wrappers again, folks. It all comes back to gum-wrappers. BG writes: I too think the gum-wrappers are most important. Alice is trying to tell Neville something - he doesn't pick up on things the way Harry does nor does he have Ron and Hermione at his side. Once Hermione has time to think about the prophecy (and Neville's possible link to it), I think she'll remember the gum-wrappers Alice gave to Neville and the comment made by his gran that Alice has given him enough to paper a room. I think Alice's love for her son is so strong that she is trying to warn him as best she can. Maybe she is circling certain letters and when Hermione gets all the wrappers Neville has saved, she will help the others to decipher the code. Her knowledge of arithmacy and ancient runes will come into play here - those subjects have been mentioned far too many times to ignore. From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed Jun 29 15:38:57 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:38:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050629153857.39304.qmail@web86202.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131663 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > wrote: > > No, we can't. Those who endorse or defend Snape's > methods (and I know > > Tonks is not, but some do) ARE endorsing and > defending the emotional > > abuse of children. Sorry if that stings, but I'm > not going to quit > > speaking the truth just because their are some who > are uncomfortable > > hearing it. Look, you think that the modern american educational system is the best educational system ever. That's your opinion, and you are perfectly entitled to it. However, it is not a fact. And it does not become a fact even if you repeat it until the rest of the listies are blue in the face. The closest real life educational equivalent to Hogwarts is an old-style English school. Now whether we agree on its relative merits or not, the fact is: within that system Snape's teaching style is nowhere close to being out of bounds. Yes, he is not an average teacher even within the relevant system of coordinates, but he would not be taken out and shot. Deal with it. Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 29 15:51:45 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:51:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050629155145.34796.qmail@web26310.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131664 > Del: > Circumstances and the local law are paramount in determining the gravity of an act. >Chris >labmystc: >You live in France right? Do you have children? Would you >like for them to be mistreated in this way at their school? Hells: I think what Del was saying is that you can't judge one society by another's standards. Whatever our personal views we can't judge the wizarding world by our muggle standards. For example, I'm English and I find the idea of owning a handgun - a weapon designed to kill and maim - very sickening. I find it hard to understand why Americans can own guns and keep them in a house with children. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that my society has a very different viewpoint and you can't compare them as if they are the same and we are more similar than wizards and muggles. --------------------------------- How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alishak at spu.edu Wed Jun 29 16:20:14 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:20:14 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131665 > phoenixgod2000: > > Seemed more like it was work related than school boy related. I > think the hostility can simply be explained by the fact that Lucius > Malfoy just isn't the type of wizard that Arthur Weasley likes. > Alisha: This theory seems to be based on a common misconception about Lucius Malfoy. He doesn't actually /work/ at the ministry. He spends a lot of time there, throwing his money around, but all indications are that he doesn't have a job. He's wealthy. Work is beneath him. I agree that Malfoy isn't the type of wizard that Arthur likes, but there is something more personal between them than simply Arthur's principles. I mean, George W. Bush isn't the sort of person that I like, but if I met him in, say, a bookstore, I doubt we'd end up in a fist fight. What we need to ask ourselves is, "How do these two men know each other?" It has to be something where they would spend enough time together to know at least trivial details about each other (Malfoy's interest in the dark arts, Arthur's poverty and large family). Malfoy does spend a lot of time at the ministry, but Arthur (for all that we love him) isn't really important enough to be on speaking terms with the Minister's personal friends. Obviously the animosity between them is strong and personal enough that they talk about it at home. Both Ron and Draco have heard of the other's father. It seems only logical that Arthur and Lucius have known each other for quite some time and that they have never gotten along. The only place where a Malfoy and a Weasley are likely to spend enough time together to learn to dislike each other that much and that personally is at school. I think it's likely that Arthur and Molly are a bit older than Lucius (otherwise Molly started her family at an extremely young age), but I think they are close enough to have spent at least a few years at school together. -Alisha From labmystc at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 16:35:06 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:35:06 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131666 > Tonks: > > NO, NO, NO!! Snape does not have to *EARN* the respect of his > students. Snape and even Umbridge (oh I can't believe that I am > including *that* nasty woman in this), but yes even Umbridge >deserve the respect of their office. We don't have to like them >personally or even have respect for them personally, but we do have >to have respect for them in the position that they are in. To do >otherwise is to be uncivilized. Tonks, I generally agree with what you have to say on here, but this time I cannot. I am supposed to respect someone simply because of the office that they hold? No. I can respect the actual position itself: president, teacher, police officer, whatever. I'm a non- practicing Catholic. Do I respect a priest who is proven to have molested children? Absolutely not. The POSITION of priest commands respect...the person filling that position does not automatically command respect. In order for that to occur they have to do well in the position and EARN my respect. Jo has drawn references between LV and Hitler. Am I to respect Hitler for his POSITION as Chancellor of Germany, though ignore the fact that he EXTERMINATED 6 million people? Of course not. These are extreme examples, but according to your statement they deserve respect for the position that they hold. I do not respect them in any way, so am I uncivilized? If we want to talk about being civilized, do the students at Hogwarts not have the right to demand to be treated in a civilized manner? After all, they are human beings, and citizens of a civilized society. Can they not command that same respect from a teacher? Must they endure the treatment they receive? In a CIVILIZED society, I would say no. Just because Snape and Umbridge are teachers, and adults, do not mean they command unconditional respect. > In a civilized society people treat each other with respect even > when they hate them intensely. I know you are going to say.. "That > is what Snape should be doing and he isn't.. yata, yata". But even > when the other person is a jerk, there is no reason to stoop to the > same level. I will agree here. There is no reason for them to stoop to the same level. As a matter of fact, I support a person who would keep their mouth shut, and rise above it all and be the better person. But does this always stop the behavior? NO. How much must a person endure before enough is enough and action is taken? > As the saying goes "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a > tooth and soon everyone will be blind and toothless". You use a biblical reference here. How about "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?" This works right? Harry and the others could just swallow their feelings, be nice to Snape and Umbridge, and they will eventually see the error of their ways? Please. That doesn't happen in the fictional nor the real world and it has been proven in the books. Snape will continue to be his nasty self until somebody puts a stop to it. Umbridge got her comeuppance, but it was written that way by Jo. Sometimes, things just don't happen that way in the real world. >We can be civil even to Umbridge. Have we learned nothing from >McGonagall's advice to Harry? She is right, you know. What was her advice? To lay low, and ignore it, because only worse things will happen. IS this always the case in the real world? No way. We'd still have slavery, segregation, leaders in power who could do what they wanted to do, communism, facism, the list goes on. Laying low and doing nothing did not get rid of these things. Action did! > I tend to be the outspoken one who says "wait, something isn't >right here" and go on to give the Umbridges of the world a nasty >time. And I can tell you that this type of a response is a stupid >thing to do. Not only does it get you in deep trouble politically, >but it makes you no better than *them*. I am not endorsing that Harry and the others retaliate with similar actions. What I am saying is that they do something, anything, to stop this behavior. To ignore it, and rise above it, is not going to stop it. A child can get beat up everyday for his lunch money. He can say to himself, "I will not fight. I'm going to be the better person, and not resort to violence." And a month later, this kid is still getting beat up, and his money taken. I'm not saying he should respond and beat up the bully, but he should do something to stop it. JKR herself said that a child being bullied should tell somebody, anybody, until someone listens and puts a stop to it. > Children can know in their heart that a teacher is not right in >what they do, but it is their place as children in a civilized >society to say "yes Sir" just the same. Really, I always thought that children learned behaviors from the elders that they have contact with. Saying "yes sir" and going on with this behavior without questioning it is not a healthy thing for children to do is it? And really, if what you said above is the case, it's a darn shame that children in a civilized society act better than adults in that same society do. Are the children supposed to be the role model for the adults? It sounds like that's what you are advocating. >Hating someone else, even when justified doesn't harm *Them*, it >harms *you*. Who's saying the children should hate Snape? I'm saying "hate what he does, not him" and do something in response. Because they are children does not mean they have to agree with everything the adults say no matter what. Chris labmystc From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 16:36:08 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:36:08 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: <20050629153246.20160.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131667 > > Juli replies: > > The way I see it, only a BLACK could get the Black > Family fortune, as Sirius is the Last Black. You say > that someone may challenge it, say Narcissa Malfoy or > Bellatrix Letrange, they may have Black blood but none > of them are Blacks, they changed their last names, so > legally they aren't Blacks. > > Let's think who knows that Sirius' got 12GP: DD and > the OoP, HRH, the Malfoys, the Letrange, and other > DEs, right. If any of them claimed that Sirius had > taken tha Black house and fortune they would be in > trouble with the MoM because: 1) They know where a > fugitive is hidding and they haven't told the MoM, 2) > How did they find out if they aren't on LV's side?. > > Sirius may have started to live at 12GP only during > OoP, but he owned it long before that, since his > mother died (8 years ago?) he was the rightful owner > of the Black estate, so why would anyone challenge it > years after that? If Narcissa or Bella wanted the > house they could have challenged it years ago when Mrs > Black died, not now. > > Juli Finwitch: At any rate, it was Sirius' father's. Not his mother's. When did Sirius' father die? Was that ever said? Did Sirius (who certainly did NOT get along with his mother) leave, at 16, before or after his father was dead? At least it's clear that Sirius' father died first... and he was the one who put all possible protections on the house (and Sirius apparently knew all of them). I wouldn't be surprised if any other than the Blacks (Sirius, Regulus & their parents) wouldn't be able to even find the 12 GP without invitation. Aside from that, well... Regulus is dead. The place *may* have been property of that Uncle of Sirius' who supported Sirius in getting his own place and left to Sirius by means of a will or whatever. Note that it was Mrs Black who disowned Sirius - the Uncle who supported Sirius may well have discredited that... and now that Sirius has blasted everyone who wasn't already blasted... As to who inherits Sirius -- I'm positive that Harry gets everything in Vault 711. (I'd imagine that Sirius *may* have declared it a shared account between him and Harry, so that doesn't even go to inheritance court. Or left it to Harry/Remus Lupin in a magically binding will. You know, like a magically binding contract) As for Malfoys to have a claim (Bella is ALSO a convicted fugitive to WW, along with her husband - so she can't.) They could have noticed the matter in a clock... Finwitch From labmystc at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 16:54:47 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:54:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: <20050629155145.34796.qmail@web26310.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131668 > Hells: > > I think what Del was saying is that you can't judge one society by >another's standards. Whatever our personal views we can't judge the >wizarding world by our muggle standards. For example, I'm English >and I find the idea of owning a handgun - a weapon designed to kill >and maim - very sickening. I find it hard to understand why >Americans can own guns and keep them in a house with children. I'm >not saying it's wrong, just that my society has a very different >viewpoint and you can't compare them as if they are the same and we >are more similar than wizards and muggles. I think you all misunderstand my point. I don't care what another society thinks or does, or what laws or morals that society has in place. Last time I checked, everyone on here and everyone in the WW are HUMAN! As humans, we have certain fundamental rights that lower, non-reasoning animals don't have. The right to treat others in a respectful way, and the right to expect the same treatment in return. The right to make the correct or incorrect decisions, and face the consequences of those decisions. These are fundamental rights that we as humans have. And there's that little thing about free will. Snape has the right to act the way he wants to as long as that behavior does not impact negatively on anyone else. The concept of being uncivilized and civilized was brought up in another post. Last time I checked, purposely degrading someone was not the mark of a civilized individual. He has the right to treat his students the way he wants to according to WW standards. And Harry and the other students have the right to not like it, and to do something about it according to human standards. As far as the weapons go: I'm American, and as a member of our civilized society, I have the right to reject the idea of owning a handgun and keeping it in my house, and I have. I own no firearms of any kind in my house, and have never owned one. It is my right not to have one. If you are a student of history, which I am, you will already know why that amendement is in place and I will not need to explain it to you. As for present times, our society is filled with people who use guns for criminal activities and other violent measures. I agree to the right to own a handgun for protection against these kinds of people. I think the laws should be more strict as to who owns them, training in the use of firearms, and how easily they should be able to get one. However, I think they're overall use is necessary. It wasn't Americans that first created firearms in the first place... Chris labmystc From jjpandy at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 17:02:03 2005 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (JJ Pandy) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:02:03 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin (mild TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131669 > Del replies: > Many problems in your reasoning: > > Of course, the next question is then: how come Harry never interacts > positively with a Slytherin? Good question, I grant you that THIS is > suspect. However, if you take a look at the "political" situation in > Hogwarts, you'll see that this is very unlikely, because of one thing: > Malfoy. > What other Slytherins could positively interact with Harry? Harry > doesn't belong to any club, except for Quidditch, which is a > *competitive* club, so inter-House befriending is pretty hard there > (romance is another matter). Slytherin and Gryffindor sit on opposite > sides in the Great Hall, they live as far away from each other as they > could (Gryffindor up a tower, Slytherin in the dungeons). Any > Slytherin who would want to befriend Harry would have to do so in the > open, they would have to go out of their way to go and see Harry, and > that would inevitably be told to Draco at one time or the other. > Considering Draco's power, I have no problem seeing why no Slytherin > would bother trying to befriend Harry. I mean, it's not like they have > a *reason* to purposely befriend Harry, do they? > JJ's reply: I believe Slytherins do not interact positively with Harry not just because of Malfoy, but also because of Snape. Snape is Head of the Slytherin House and I think it is obvious to all students (even ones as thick as Crabbe and Goyle)in the Potions class that Snape does not like Harry. A Slytherin student may not be or want to be friends with Malfoy, but have good reason not to get on the bad side of their Head of House/Potions professor. I'm sure older and younger Slytherin students have heard stories of Snape and Harry's hate-hate relationship, in addition to Malfoy and Harry's hate-hate relationship in the Slytherin Common Room since Malfoy does love to raise his voice to be heard - add that to Quidditch team loyalty - and I can see why a Slytherin may not want to just walk up to Harry and strike up a friendly conversation. Besides, at this point, I am sure Harry would be suspicious of any Slytherin trying to act friendly towards him unless he actually witnessed that Slytherin doing something nice for another non-Slytherin (like helping Neville pick up books he dropped). JJ :) From lhuntley at fandm.edu Wed Jun 29 17:25:28 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:25:28 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131670 I'm using webview reply feature, which I've never really done before (despite 3+ years of membership), so bear with me if the formatting is off. Chris labmystc wrote: > Circumstances and the local law are NOT paramount when it comes to > the actions perpetrated by someone on another individual. The > standards of the individual being attacked is what matters in > instances like these. Del replied: > I completely disagree. If what Person A does to Person B is neither > immoral nor illegal by society's standards, then it is entirely > Person B's problem if they don't like it. I think that this, as a blanket statement, is clearly incorrect. To use an extreme example to prove my point: today I read a brief article in the NYT about a woman in Pakistan who was gang raped by a group of men as a punishment because of something her brother did. These men not only had the approval of their society, they also had the approval (instruction, even) of the *law*. Yet, somehow, I don't feel that the situation (or the state of human rights in that country) in that country is the woman's "problem". I guess I'll be quite surprised (and a little awed) if you manage to disagree with me on this one. ^_~ Del: > Example: back when I was working, I did not like the sexual pics and > jokes that my coworker pinned all around his work station, but > because this was neither illegal nor immoral, I had no recourse but > to swallow it. On the other hand, I could threaten them with legal > action when they smoked around me, because it is illegal to smoke > inside buildings. What if, instead, he had made it a habit to grab your butt in a friendly (but still upsetting for you) manner? If there were no laws in place against this, would you still feel that this was merely your problem? Chris labmystc wrote: > WW authorities, Snape, DD, and whatever adult you can name in this > book may find it ok that Snape uses these methods with the children > he is teaching. However, if the children THEMSELVES OR THEIR > PARENTS feel like it is a problem, then it is a problem no matter > what the law states. Del replies: > Yes it is a problem. TO THEM. But it doesn't have to be a problem to > anyone else - not to Snape, not to DD, not to anyone. Nobody has any > kind of obligation to share their point of view, and nobody has to > effect a change just to satisfy them. Not sure I agree completely with Chris on this, although I'm not entirely with Del either -- can I just sit on the fence? ^_~ Sometimes parents can put unfair pressure on teachers to change their habits when they really aren't doing anything wrong. On the other hand, if a large majority of said parents and their children feel that they are being wronged, is it perhaps possible, per Del's immoral/illegal model, that a significant faction of society *does* perceive Snape's action to be crossing morality boundaries? Chris labmystc wrote: > All I would want is that he (a) change his teaching methods and the > way he personally deals with these children or (b) his termination. Del replies: > Why should any of this happen? Just because YOU have a problem with > his teaching methods doesn't mean anybody else should have a problem > with them too. If Snape doesn't have a problem with them, he has no > reason to change them. And if DD has no problem with them, he has no > reason to fire Snape. > > You are asking that Snape act as a convict by either reforming or > being put away, when he is NOT a convict, and can't be one since > what he is doing is neither illegal nor considered immoral by > his society. But if enough children (who *do* count, you know) and parents feel that his conduct is unusual and immoral, then who is to say that he's *not* going against the morality of his society? [Warning: Del, you will probably disagree with the following on a very fundamental level, but I wanted to put it out there anyway.] Even if this is not the case, I do believe that there are certain morals that are rather universal. For example, I don't think women deserved to be sexually violated, ever. This comes under the general code of not intentionally harming others when you can help it. I feel that Snape is in violation of this general code in a big way. Not only is he unnecessarily hurtful -- he takes pleasure out of it! Chris labmystc wrote: > I, for one, hope that in the last two books, somehow, someway, > Snape learns his lesson. Del replies: > What lesson?? That he "should" be nice? I'm afraid this is not a > necessary basic life lesson. It's NICE when people decide to include > it in their own list of commandments, but there is *absolutely NO > obligation of any kind* to do so. Perhaps the basic life lesson is that being unnecessarily and intentionally hurtful to others is not only harmful to them -- it's harmful to you and it's harmful to your society. I think this qualifies it as immoral in a broad range of moral theories. We've already see this lesson played out in OotP: Snape's treatment of Harry obviously hurt Harry, but also was a significant factor in the damage caused tothe Order (and therefore to Snape and Snape's society). Personally, though, I don't think Snape is ever going to learn this lesson, and I won't be particularly bothered if this is the case. What bothers me is when people go out of their way to justify his actions, but then come down hard on Harry for not being The Better Man. This comment is not directly at Del, BTW. It's just something I've noticed a lot on this list over the years. IMO, the vast majority of the moral responsibility for the problems in their relationship lays with Snape. Not only is he the adult, not only does he understand situations that Harry's only beginning to be privy to, not only was he the one to initiate and sustain the conflict -- he also is the one with the history of malicious, gleefully unfair treatment of others. (That said, I *do* think that at some point in the story, Harry *will* be The Better Man to some extent -- if only for his own peace of mind.) Del: > Not being nice is not breaking any > legal or moral rule. Maybe it doesn't seem so when you phrase it that way, but I really believe that not being malicious *is* a moral rule. Laura (who welcomes Del back to posting after her long absence.) From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 17:31:53 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:31:53 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Wizard, Muggle, & Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131671 wrote: > > Steve wrote: > > > Personally, I believe a Phoenix can truly and completely die, > > > but the circumstances that could cause that would be > > > exceptionally rare. Also, that the span between natural > > > regenerations is probably 100 to 200 years, and that those > > > regeneration would certainly allow a Phoenix to live for a few > > > thousand years (1,000 to maybe 3,000 years). Relative to even a > > > wizard's lifespan, that is as good as immortal. Finwitch: Yes, well - however long the natural lifespan is, the Phoenix does the same fire&rebirth when he/she dies. However... I think that if some thoroughly EVIL person were to slay a Phoenix when it's just reborn - a chick that is - THEN it would, I believe, die completely. (With some VERY bad consecuences to whoever did that). It will, at the end of the natural cycle, be it 50 or 500 years, DIE. However, then it will simply be reborn again, a young bird - how long does it take of a newly reborn phoenix to regain maturity? Less than a year, apparently. However, it seems to me that the Phoenix is immune to Basilisk-stare (which seems to be some sort of FIRE trough the eyes - judging from Colin's camera). Probably to the poison, too... or at least Phoenix tears can heal it completely. Faithful pets (Fawkes taking AK for Dumbledore proves this better than that 'Harry's loyalty call'..) Carry heavy loads - very useful. Any limits? Think not... Healing tears Magical song to encourage the pure-hearted and strike fear to the impure... comforting weight Harry noticed. (another magical quality or just Harry?) Finwitch From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 17:38:20 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050629173820.61198.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131672 I think I'd be more impressed with Lupinlore's, Chris's, and Phoenixgod's arguments if someone could explain to me how attacking a fictional character's actions is somehow assisting in the fight against child abuse of real, living, breathing children. Because otherwise it's just another tedious outbreak of strident hectoring that erupts every two or three months. I personally don't need any lecturing from anyone on the subject of Child Abuse is Bad - to which the only civilized response is "Well, DUH!" Being on the side of the angels does not give anyone carte blanche to be rude and insulting to fellow listees. And - Earth to Lupinlore - accusing people of "endorsing and defending the emotional abuse of children" is pretty damn insulting. Hoping the Admin-elves will bring this sorry episode to a conclusion soon. Magda ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Jun 29 17:39:08 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:39:08 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: <20050629153246.20160.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > Steve/bboyminn: (snip) > ...it would take a legal event of substantial magnitude to > prevent Sirius from having undisputed claim to the Black Family > Estate. Disowned or not disowned, ... There may be legal > directives and entailments, that transend the wishes of > the immediate generation of Blacks. > > > Jmoses wrote: > I see only one problem with this theory. I believe Sirius was > a fugitive at the time. If he was, he wouldn't have a legal > claim to anything. I believe that it was more along the > lines of he got there first and hid it. > > Juli replies: > The way I see it, only a BLACK could get the Black Family fortune, > as Sirius is the Last Black. You say that someone may challenge > it, say Narcissa Malfoy or Bellatrix Letrange, they may have > Black blood but none of them are Blacks, they changed their last > names, so legally they aren't Blacks. ... > > Sirius may have started to live at 12GP only during OoP, but he > owned it long before that, since his mother died (8 years > ago?) he was the rightful owner of the Black estate, so why > would anyone challenge it years after that? If Narcissa or > Bella wanted the house they could have challenged it years ago > when Mrs Black died, not now > > > Juli > aussie: Welcome to Wizards' Law. Especially when dealing with an ancient family, you probably have to respect the line of ownership until death at least. Wizards have faced enough persecution of the last millenium from Muggles. They wouldn't want to copy Muggle laws that Salazar Slytherin and other founders suffered under. Magical curses may protect the house exclusively for the heirs and those they invite. Kreacher was bound by such laws as was anyone wanting to claim the house for the simple reason that the sole heir was a convicted murderer in an inescapable prison. One of these posts reminded us that Black didn't go direct to 12GP. He was sending tropical birds instead of owls to Harry. Whoever helped Sirius then may hold a few more answers for Harry about his godfather. aussie From labmystc at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 17:44:32 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:44:32 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131674 > Del replies: > I completely disagree. If what Person A does to Person B is neither > immoral nor illegal by society's standards, then it is entirely >Person B's problem if they don't like it. So, if person A is doing what he is doing, person B just has to deal with it? What about person C, D, E, F and so on and so forth. When enough people get together to say one thing is wrong, or that they feel person A is a problem, usually that is enough to prove there is in fact a problem, right? If Harry and the rest come out and say that Snape is unnecessarily abusive toward them, that's enough. Regardless of what the society's rules and morality are, if there is a widespread problem with enough people complaining, something has to be done. > Example: back when I was working, I did not like the sexual pics >and jokes that my coworker pinned all around his work station, but >because this was neither illegal nor immoral, I had no recourse but >to swallow it. On the other hand, I could threaten them with legal >action when they smoked around me, because it is illegal to smoke >inside buildings. You are talking about a LAW against smoking inside buildings, right? When did it become a law, and why was it made a law? Probably, enough health professionals and individual citizens came together with a complaint and the government responded with this law. The situation you described with the sexual pictures is against the law in my area of the U.S. It didn't use to be though. But enough men and especially women had a problem with it, complained to officials who could do something about it, and it is now against the law. People stood up when they had a problem regardless of what society at the time thought, and enacted change! Why can't Harry and the other students do the same? > Del replies: > That's *personal* morality. But nobody's personal morality defines > what a society finds morally acceptable or not. Really? I always thought that the collective consciousness of a society was based on the individual consciounesses of the society at large. The ideals of a society were not based on what any one man or woman thought at the time. Murder has been wrong since God said it was, but do all people believe murder is wrong because God said so. I think there are some atheists out there who think murder is wrong, not because one individual said so but because it is a common belief throughout society. >Some people have a very "low" morality and find many things >acceptable that society finds repulsive. Inversely, many people find >that some things that are accepted by society are morally offensive >to them. But do these "repulsive" things of a society personally impact upon an individual? Society generally accepts homosexuality, but there are many who find this lifestyle repulsive. Does this lifestyle have a personal impact on these people? No, it does not. Homosexuals live out their lives without ever being around or involved with these individuals. Not so with Snape and the students. He is personally impacting each one of the children that he is in contact with. The wizarding society may accept this behavioe as a whole, but individuals like Harry, Neville, and the others do not. > Del replies: > It is their right to do so, but it is nobody else's duty to agree >with them. If someone feels violated because I looked at them, it's >their problem, not mine. Nobody has a right to force me to apologise >or to look the other way. But Harry doesn't have a problem with the way Snape looks at him. He has a problem with the way he is being treated and spoken to. Does looking at someone really cause them harm in anyway, whether they like the way you look at them or not? No. But verbally abusing and mistreating someone does. A teacher can give a student a stern look which the student may not appreciate, but if the teacher says "You are an idiot, and will never succeed!" or tears up a homework assignment and then says "Zero!" then there is a problem. > 4. Living in a democracy with a constitution means that this kind of > scenario as you described can't happen. Such a law would be > anti-constitutional, so it couldn't be passed. I notice, however, >that we have never heard of a WW constitution, which explains that >Umbridge was able to pass all those Educational Decrees. They would >have been deemed anti-constitutional in many RW democratic countries. But the WW, in absence of a constitution would use these educational decrees and any other orders by the Ministry as law. Who decides that these laws are immoral, the people enacting them or the people in society that have to live by them? Obviously, Umbridge didn't think that these decrees were immoral, so they must not be. Oh, wait. Everyone else thought they sucked, but that's ok. It's acceptable because she's the High Inquisitor. > 5. My personal morality does come at odds with the law and the >general morality quite often. But because my personal morality >doesn't have any power on other people, I just have to swallow what >is legal, and I can only try to fight what is generally considered >moral. Who says you have to swallow it? Did Ghandi, did Martin Luther King? Did Martin Luther in his Protestant Reformation? Did Abraham Lincoln? Are we as individuals so small that we cannot do what we can to enact change? The answer is no. The reason things stay the same is because nobody has the guts to stand up and try to change it. We should just deal with what we can, and ignore everythig else that bothers us? No. > Del replies: > Why should any of this happen? Just because YOU have a problem with > his teaching methods doesn't mean anybody else should have a problem > with them too. If Snape doesn't have a problem with them, he has no > reason to change them. And if DD has no problem with them, he has no > reason to fire Snape. UH, I'm not in the books. I believe Harry, Neville, Hermione, Lavender, Patil, all the Weasleys, Sirius, Remus Lupin, Mad-Eye Moody, more than likely James AND Lily were they alive...sounds like they have a problem with it. I think I have fictional back-up on this one... > You are asking that Snape act as a convict by either reforming or > being put away, when he is NOT a convict, and can't be one since >what he is doing is neither illegal nor considered immoral by his >society. Who is asking him to act like or be a convict? I'm just saying he should start treating the children a little bit better, as most adults would do in a "civilized" society. > Del replies: > Should? But WHY should he do that? "Should" implies that there is >some kind of obligation, but Snape has NO such obligation, of any >kind. You're right. He has no obligation to be nice, treat children with respect, teach in a constructive manner, be a good human being and role model for his students, or in any way act like a respectable adult in a position of power. He should continue abusing his authority, lower children's self-respect and esteem, berate those with less authority and power than himself, and overall act like a general ass. I applaud him! > Del replies: > That's your point of view, but it doesn't seem to be his, nor DD's, > and *their* opinion is what matters in the Potterverse. Since these books are called "Harry Potter and the..." and you say Potterverse, I think Harry has a little say too. :-) > Del replies: > How unusual in the WW... Unusual for most of the rational, free-thinking adults. Yes. > Del replies: > What lesson?? That he "should" be nice? I'm afraid this is not a > necessary basic life lesson. It's NICE when people decide to include > it in their own list of commandments, but there is *absolutely NO > obligation of any kind* to do so. You're right. The first thing I plan on teaching my children when they're older is that they can walk over anybody, make fun of less fortunate people, criticize anyone and anything they wish, and be little monsters if they feel like it. As a matter of fact, I will save my copies of the books and tell them I hope they are more like Snape when they are adults. Oh yeah. Then again I won't. Because the last thing I want to do is add more pieces of crap into what we call society. Chris labmystc From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 17:55:54 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:55:54 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Wizard, Muggle, & Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131675 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich > wrote: > > The really interesting question re lifespans is, when exactly does > > the aging process slow down? ...edited... > Tonks: > Is it that time slows down? Maybe it speeds up. By that I mean when > you are young time is slow, so a year last a long, long time. But as > you get older the year moves faster. ... That is the only way I can > see the difference between Muggles and Wizards. The Muggles sense > time moving faster but age the same. The Wizards sense time moving > faster and somehow move along with it after age 80. > Well this is almost as confusing as TT. ;-) > > Tonks_op bboyminn: Of course, it's not time that runs fast or slow depending on your age, it /preception/ of time or our perspective on time. At age 10, one year is 10% of a lifetime, at age 100, a year is 1% of a lifetime, and our preception/perspective shifts accordingly. When we are young, there is time for everything; lazy summer days stretch out forever as we fill them with play. When we are old, a day slips away, sometimes, before we even know it was there. Now imagine how terribly fast those days must slip away for someone who is age 150, even if they are still healthy and active. No wonder Dumbledore never gets anything done. No wonder he never gets around to telling Harry 'everything', the days, weeks, months, and years fly by before he has a chance, at least to his perspective they do. That could explain a lot. As far as the change in the aging process, it's not an event. It's not like at age 50, your biological clock suddenly jumps back 25 years. You simply grow old slowly. We see people like that in real life. People who seem physically, mentally, and socially much younger than their actual age, and certainly much younger than other people his/her same age. Mostly for them, it's a combination of good genetics, luck, and a healthy active lifestyle (and lots of sex, or so I'm told). The whole wizard's age vs muggle age is simply a means of lending perspective to the differences. A hundred year old wizard is still a hundred years old; a hundred year old muggle is still a hundred years old. But in terms of health, vitatity, and mental and physical abilities, plus the damaging deteriorating effects of age, a hundred year old wizard is the /equivalent/ of a 59 year old muggle. It's like putting a dog's life in perspective by using dog years. It simply puts a given stage of a dog life into a human perspective. Wizard's years, simple put a wizard's age into a muggle equivalent perspective. Hummm... I talked a lot, but did I actually say anything? Steve/bboyminn From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 17:59:02 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:59:02 -0000 Subject: Outsider critique? (Was: Snape's abuse) In-Reply-To: <20050629155145.34796.qmail@web26310.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, hells456 wrote: > Hells: > > I think what Del was saying is that you can't judge one society by > another's standards. Whatever our personal views we can't judge the > wizarding world by our muggle standards. This is the crux of the matter, a fundamental issue on which Del and others (including myself) will disagree at base. I think that regarding behavior, it is eminently possible to critique actions (and intentions) from any number of moral perspectives, including ones which are decidedly *not* those internal to the society, including the laws. One of JKR's major major points seems to be that breaking rules (or the laws of the wizarding world) is sometimes Good in the pursuit of greater Good. That's why she's relatively unsympathetic to those who toe the strict legal line, even when it leads them away from what they should be doing. Within the story, we are (in my reading) often asked to critique what is going on, from a number of different perspectives. I'll give a precis of two characters who seem the most important: Hermione is the talented outsider come in to make her way in the wizarding world. She thus brings in a moral sensibility not necessarily founded in this world--and she has strong objections, hence S.P.E.W. Now I would argue that Hermione is certainly committing a number of sins of the crusader, such as inadequate consideration of custom and wishes of those she wants to help, but nonetheless she's been partially validated by Dumbledore's comments at the end of OotP (those about wizards and their lessers). Dumbledore is an insider to society, in powerful position--but also something of an outsider as he's in touch with the Muggle world and thus likely various ideas from it that seem lacking in the WW, such as human rights. [Side note: JKR herself takes the International Declaration of Human Rights veddy seriously.] He's a social critic in how he runs Hogwarts, speaking against the Dementors, telling Fudge he puts too much emphasis on blood, etc. IMO, a reading which just says "Oh, that's WW practice and Snape is just following it so it's okay" ignores the ethical problems of abuse of authority and a sadistic personality. However, flaying him on the model of modern (whatever) education ignores the cultural context and social approval. A middle path is, of course, less exciting but eminently possible. To completely dismiss outsider critique is to cut off one of the most powerful forces for much-needed reform--Voice. -Nora hunts for her copy of E. O. Hirschmann, "Exit, Voice, and Loyalty" From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 18:01:37 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:01:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131677 Chris labmystc wrote: "Last time I checked, everyone on here and everyone in the WW are HUMAN! As humans, we have certain fundamental rights that lower, non-reasoning animals don't have." Del replies: I'm sorry to say that, but no we don't. Human beings have no *inherent* rights coming from the fact that they were born humans. Those "human rights" are rights that were *created* by humans. Groups of people have agreed to GRANT those rights to all human beings in their sphere of influence. It was a moral, social, political decision, but it was not an acknowledgement of a biological reality. And unfortunately, there are still people, governments, in the world we live in, who decide NOT to grant those rights to the people they rule over. Which means that there are human beings in some parts of the world who do NOT have those "fundamental human rights". There are parts of the world where human beings are not more, or barely more, than non-reasoning animals. But anyway, AFAIK, the WW did NOT ratify the human rights convention, or whatever it is called. So we can't start off with the pre-conception that they necessarily view "human rights" as we do. Moreover, we know for a fact that the WW holds some sentient, reasoning, intelligent beings as little more than animals. We also know that wizards can be stripped of their "fundamental rights" if some "accidents" happen to them, like being bitten by a werewolf (no more right to education, no more right to work, no more freedom of circulation, no more respect, and so on). Believing that the purebloodist and the anti-Muggle ideologies exist in a vaccuum is naive IMO. Those ideologies are flourishing because the WW soil is fertile. The WW is full of varied prejudices, and it does not seem to have a moral view of who is worthy of respect and why. What we Western Muggles take as obvious fundamental human rights don't seem to be concepts that many wizards have grasped yet. Chris labmystc wrote: "The right to treat others in a respectful way, and the right to expect the same treatment in return. " Del replies: Look at how the adults treat each other in the WW. Do you really see that much respect? McGonagall obviously looks down on Trelawney. Lupin is harrassed because he is a werewolf. Sirius was thrown in Azkaban without a trial. Umbridge and Fudge look down on several categories of people. And do I need to mention His Respectable Highness Lucius Malfoy, or the Noble House of Black (including its supposedly "white" sheep, who never seems to have shown any respect to one of his "closest friends"). The only things wizards seem to truly respect are money, ancestry, and above all magical "talent" (or more appropriately IMO, magical *power*). Money, ancestry and power, the world-old combination of attributes that BUYS one respect in most societies. In short: respect is not something that one can freely claim in the WW, it is something that must be bought. And once it is bought, it can be imposed on all "inferiors". Snape "bought" his students' respect simply by being a teacher, and so his students owe him respect no matter what. Chris labmystc wrote: "The right to make the correct or incorrect decisions, and face the consequences of those decisions." Del replies: Like being a DE, and getting away by simply pretending that you were under an Imperius Curse or something? Chris labmystc wrote: "Snape has the right to act the way he wants to as long as that behavior does not impact negatively on anyone else." Del replies: Says who? As long as no moral or legal authority is there to ensure that such rules are being followed, then those rules do not exist. It's like saying "it's forbidden to kill another human being", but having no law enforcement force, no law condemning murder, and no prison: it's pointless. As long as nobody in power of any kind will care that Snape acts in ways that impact negatively on others, there won't be ANY rule saying it is wrong and he won't have any reason to change. In short: as long as neither DD nor the School's Board of Governors, nor even the Ministry, care about what Snape does, then what he does is neither right nor wrong, and he has no obligation to change. Chris labmystc wrote: "The concept of being uncivilized and civilized was brought up in another post. Last time I checked, purposely degrading someone was not the mark of a civilized individual." Del replies: Careful on this one ;) Many of the popular games, jokes, and shows in our "civilised" societies today are based on degrading other people. Chris labmystc wrote: "And Harry and the other students have the right to not like it, and to do something about it according to human standards." Del replies: Obviously, WW human standards allow for what Snape does. So Harry and the others won't get anywhere if they try to do something based on those standards. What they need to do is RAISE those standards, so that things like Snape's teaching methods and purebloodism become morally and legally unacceptable. Chris labmystc wrote: "However, I think they're overall use is necessary. It wasn't Americans that first created firearms in the first place..." Del replies: That's not the point. The point is that having firearms at home is morally and legally acceptable in the US, while it is unthinkable in other countries. To me, for example, having guns at home is an uncivilised thing to do, it refers to barbaric times. That's the way I instinctively think about it because of my circumstances, the society I grew up in. But I guess if I studied US history, I would come to the conclusion that it makes sense for you (as a society) to think differently. Similarly, I find Snape's method of teaching quite uncivilised by my standards, but considering everything else that goes on in the WW, I can see that it is not out of place there. Del From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 18:12:32 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:12:32 -0000 Subject: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131678 > Snow: > > If James had thought that Snape could enter that (his) position and > would teach the children of Hogwarts Dark Arts and not the `Defense' > of the dark arts, Snape would then be the equal to Karkaroff who was > the headmaster of a school (Durmstrang) who held the teaching of Dark > Arts in high regard; not the `Defense' of the Dark Arts. If James > were this teacher he would want to protect against the teaching of > Dark Arts. (Lockhart was the teacher in COS who remains to be a > character in the novels however subtle (or not) his role has > resumed.) > Snow in response: > Snow: > > You do have a point about Snape's cover being blown (which I > wholeheartedly believe in) but Snape is teaching them something even > more powerful than DADA. Potions are very much a part of, imo, why > Harry is alive along with why Tom Riddle became Voldemort. If either > of these potions were equal to the ancient magic that Voldemort said > Lily performed, they would be greater than any DADA lesson ever > taught. So, Snape is actually teaching in a position that is more > powerful than the DADA position he always craved to have. --> > I'm just looking at this from James' point of view if everything came > down the way I stated in my previous post. James is faced with > trusting not Dumbledore but who Dumbledore trusts (and its not likely > that he gave James anymore info than he gives to Harry or anyone > else) which happens to be Snape, his worst adversary. How much can > you ask of the man James is human and can put his trust in just so > many persons why in God's name would Dumbledore ever trust Snape? > Yet, if James was wrong and Dumbledore and Snape were right and he > didn't go into hiding as suggested he would be solely to blame for > putting his wife and child in jeopardy. Finwitch: I agree with the idea of the jinx being put for protection, and never mind whether James Potter ever had the post or if he was the one to jinx it. However, I do not believe it's "you teach a year at most and then you'll leave and not come back" - as Quirrell DID return. No... it's more like "Your worst/darkest secret will be revealed and if you act against students in Hogwarts your act will be returned to you to protect the students" - Quirrellmort's double identity ended up in his death but not before he tried to kill Harry; Lockhart's Obliviating policies turned against him when he tried to do that to Ron; Lupin's Lycanthropy was revealed but he himself decided to leave, nothing was really against him within Hogwarts; Impostor Crouch!Moody was revealed - and it may be he force-fed Veritaserum to Harry before asking his questions - and was fed it by Dumbledore later; Umbridge then... well, futile tasks, small taunts repeated often while raising crowds against Hogwarts - particularly the student, Harry. That's what she got back from Hogwarts, too... nearly entire Hogwarts as well. If there was a DADA teacher who had no dark secrets to speak of (Umbridge came close) AND who were good about their position, they would stay. Possibility of the revealence-jinx maybe why Dumbledore cannot let Snape take this position... Of course, it might be more general than that - Hogwarts will teach them all, old or young... most of the DADA teachers just get it the hard way. And this is possibly set by the school song! (Just because we only 'heard' it once, doesn't mean they don't traditionally sing it *every* year, after the Feast - or the first morning). Finwitch From labmystc at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 18:14:47 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:14:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: <20050629173820.61198.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131679 Magda: > I think I'd be more impressed with Lupinlore's, Chris's, and > Phoenixgod's arguments if someone could explain to me how attacking > a fictional character's actions is somehow assisting in the fight >against child abuse of real, living, breathing children. I think I can, hopefully in a cogent way. First, regardless of how fictional it is, Harry Potter has become an institution in and of itself in the real world. It is being used in English classes as extra-curricular reading, and it has spawned thousands of websites, chat groups like this one, and other outlets. Hundreds of Thousands of children as well as their parents are reading these books. I know of several individuals within my own age group who even discuss these books with their children. They have found that their children are becoming immersed in the Potterverse, and that parents can use these books as a teching tool about good vs. evil, morality, and the real world. I for one, have always read books, be they fiction or nonfiction, not just merely for entertainment, but for what kind of lessons I can glean from the writer and what they are trying to say. JKR injects little nuggets like these into her writing and they can be used for a teaching tool. I think this group gives us adult readers a chance to have some real discussions about issues like these that come from the books. The conversations on here definitely transcend the general ones: "Draco is so hot, I hope he hooks up with Hermione." Anything that can generate the kind of debate we have on here, and make us think about the themes involved, I am all for. No, in no way are our discussions helping to solve child abuse, or murder, or any other major problem in the real world. But they do make us think, don't they. And I enjoy learning about what other people from all over the world think about these topics. I try to stray away from attacking anyone's personal character, but sometimes we do have strong opinions. I have never taken anything said about what I think as a personal attack on me or my beliefs even if it sounded like one. I like the debate that is generated on here, and it gives me insight into other people. Are we curing Cancer, of course not. But we are thinking, aren't we? And it's even more interesting that what generated this thinking seems to be the same thing that got our kids interested in reading again. > I personally don't need any lecturing from anyone on the subject of > Child Abuse is Bad - to which the only civilized response is "Well, > DUH!" Being on the side of the angels does not give anyone carte > blanche to be rude and insulting to fellow listees. And - Earth to > Lupinlore - accusing people of "endorsing and defending the >emotional abuse of children" is pretty damn insulting. I have never said that you go out an endorse this behavior in the real world. If anyone has thought that about my posts, then I apologize to you all, and I will admit that I was wrong in doing so, as that was not my intention. I have very strong opinions about this subject, based on a fictional work or not, and the idea that someone like Snape exists and could do these kinds of things in the real world, piss me off. Again, I apologize if anyone mistook my post for a personal attack. > Hoping the Admin-elves will bring this sorry episode to a conclusion > soon. Think of something thought-provoking to discuss and I'm all for it. This particular topic has worn me out emotionally. :-) Chris labmystc > > > > ____________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Sports > Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football > http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From yellows at aol.com Wed Jun 29 18:30:56 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:30:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Inconsistencies in the DADA position Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131680 In a message dated 6/29/2005 2:14:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, finwitch at yahoo.com writes: If there was a DADA teacher who had no dark secrets to speak of (Umbridge came close) AND who were good about their position, they would stay. Possibility of the revealence-jinx maybe why Dumbledore cannot let Snape take this position... BriefChronicles now: I think you have a good point here about a possible jinx on the DADA position. If Dumbledore thinks it would be a bad idea for Snape's secret to get out, and the DADA position reveals all of its professors' secrets, then Snape's cover surely would be blown. I have a slight problem with this theory, though. Dumbledore knew about Lupin's secret. With this logic, if I'm understanding correctly, we can only assume that Dumbledore didn't think it would be a problem for the entire school to know that secret. Are we to believe there is a good reason for Lupin's nature to be revealed? I suppose the argument can be made that all people of non-pure-blood situations should be openly accepted, and one way to go about this is to make it clear just how many remarkable people have less than pure blood. But I haven't seen Dumbledore making direct attempts to "out" Hagrid or any others who feel they have something to hide. I've always felt that Dumbledore's part in the equality movement has been more as a protector than an instigator. If he knew that the DADA position would reveal the professor's darkest secret, then why would he hire Lupin? BriefChronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 18:35:25 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (Debbie) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:35:25 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Rudeness and Insults Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131681 Greetings from Hexquarters! A reminder from the HPfGU List Rules: "We welcome debate, but do not attack or insult other list members." Interpretations and opinions of canon are as varied as our membership; debating and discussing these interpretations and sharing opinions are the reasons for this group's existence. As adults, we expect everyone here to accept that we are all entitled to our opinions, and we expect that people should be able to disagree with one another without being snide or insulting. Please keep your comments and critiques focused to the merits of the argument. Do not attack or insult other list members. If you find yourself losing your temper, don't hit 'Send'. Read your response later and find a way to make your point without attacking others. Please keep it civil. We reserve the right to pull offending threads and to put repeat offenders back on moderated status. Thank you for your cooperation, Speedy Elf For the List Admin Team From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 29 18:38:15 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:38:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C2EA97.90103@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131682 Finwitch: >I agree with the idea of the jinx being put for protection, and never >mind whether James Potter ever had the post or if he was the one to >jinx it. However, I do not believe it's "you teach a year at most and >then you'll leave and not come back" - as Quirrell DID return. No... >it's more like "Your worst/darkest secret will be revealed and if you >act against students in Hogwarts your act will be returned to you to >protect the students" - > Ohh.... I snipped all your examples, but this theory, I like. >If there was a DADA teacher who had no dark secrets to speak of >(Umbridge came close) AND who were good about their position, they >would stay. Possibility of the revealence-jinx maybe why Dumbledore >cannot let Snape take this position... > This is the conclusion I reached as I read your post, as well. It all fits with the stories from canon, and explains why Snape can't have the job... I really, really like this idea. [/aol] heh heather the buzzard From labmystc at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 18:42:35 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:42:35 -0000 Subject: WW POV and acceptance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131683 > Similarly, I find Snape's method of teaching quite uncivilised by my >standards, but considering everything else that goes on in the WW, I >can see that it is not out of place there. > > Del If we discuss Snape's actions from the WW point of view, than I concede and will agree with you. You have presented your viewpoint in a more articulate manner than I ever could have, and you seem to have a great capacity for reason. I have enjoyed this exchange immensely. I hope we disagree more in the future. :-) I will concede that if we view morality, law, and standards of society from a WW point of view, then Snape is more than obliged to act the way he has been acting. I can only hope that within the books, these kids learn from his actions and go on to become functional adults who contribute to change within their society. Chris *bowing out of this discussion after being bombarded with more reason than he can argue against* From kjones at telus.net Wed Jun 29 18:45:01 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:45:01 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: <20050629173820.61198.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050629173820.61198.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42C2EC2D.2080408@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131684 Magda Grantwich wrote: > I think I'd be more impressed with Lupinlore's, Chris's, and > Phoenixgod's arguments if someone could explain to me how attacking a > fictional character's actions is somehow assisting in the fight > against child abuse of real, living, breathing children. > > Because otherwise it's just another tedious outbreak of strident > hectoring that erupts every two or three months. > > I personally don't need any lecturing from anyone on the subject of > Child Abuse is Bad - to which the only civilized response is "Well, > DUH!" Being on the side of the angels does not give anyone carte > blanche to be rude and insulting to fellow listees. And - Earth to > Lupinlore - accusing people of "endorsing and defending the emotional > abuse of children" is pretty damn insulting. > > Hoping the Admin-elves will bring this sorry episode to a conclusion > soon. > > Magda Kathy writes: I agree completely. I am at a loss to understand how such intelligent and usually reasonable people can allow a discussion of a plot device, Snape's teaching abilities, to deteriorate to the point of name calling and insults. The discussion should answer whether or not the description of Snape's teaching works as a plot device. This story has nothing to do with educational systems past, present or future. Nor does it have anything to do with child abuse. Is this not Harry Potter for Grownups? KJ From jmkearns at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 18:50:22 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:50:22 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Phoenix in particular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131685 > > Steve wrote: > > Personally, I believe a Phoenix can truly and completely die, > > but the circumstances that could cause that would be > > exceptionally rare. Also, that the span between natural > > regenerations is probably 100 to 200 years, and that those > > regeneration would certainly allow a Phoenix to live for a few > > thousand years (1,000 to maybe 3,000 years). > > Finwitch: > It will, at the end of the natural cycle, be it 50 or 500 years, > DIE. However, then it will simply be reborn again, a young bird - > how long does it take of a newly reborn phoenix to regain > maturity? Less than a year, apparently. John K: The extent of my knowledge about the mythology behind the Phoenix is the combination of Jo Rowling and a city in Arizona, but I did want to point out one bit of relevant JKR canon: "'Professor,' Harry gasped. 'Your bird - I couldn't do anything - he just caught fire-' To Harry's astonishment, Dumbledore smiled. 'About time, too,' he said. 'He's been looking dreadful for days; I've been telling him to get a move on.... It's a shame you had to see him on a Burning Day.'" (CoS, Scholastic p207) Nothing is blantantly stated here, but my assumption, based solely on this passage, was always that Fawkes dies and is reborn fairly regularly; perhaps this happens every month or two. It is fairly strongly implied that the process is quick - he's only been looking dreadful for days (not weeks or years), and Dumbledore speaks of Burning Day as a very non-momentous event, as though he's seen hundreds or thousands of them. I haven't found anything in canon to contradict this. And as you said, it takes very little time for Fawkes to return full-form. As far as really and truly dying... somewhere I picked up the idea that Fawkes may have belonged to Godric Gryffindor, but I never pictured him as being much older than that (and even that's perhaps just a flight of fancy, if you'll pardon the pun). It's interesting to consider - for example, when Dumbledore dies, will Fawkes die as well, like my grandfather's clock? Or could his death foreshadow Dumbledore's? Perhaps he can only be killed when he is not yet full- grown. Or perhaps his mortality is simply irrelevant. Fawkes is certainly one of the most fascinating creatures Jo Rowling has presented us with. I shall be keeping my eye out for him. Incidentally, perhaps this has been discussed, but why was the Order of the Phoenix so named? Is Fawkes one of their methods of communication, or might this be of significance for future books? John K From labmystc at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 18:59:52 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:59:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: <42C2EC2D.2080408@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131686 Kathy writes: > I agree completely. I am at a loss to understand how such >intelligent and usually reasonable people can allow a discussion of a >plot device, Snape's teaching abilities, to deteriorate to the point >of name calling and insults. The discussion should answer whether or >not the description of Snape's teaching works as a plot device. This >story has nothing to do with educational systems past, present or >future. Nor does it have anything to do with child abuse. Is this >not Harry Potter for Grownups? Yes, it is for Grownups. This is why I bowed out of the conversation after an apology for offending anyone. I can't speak for anyone else, but in this particular circumstance, I let my heart override my head, and let the point get away from me. The topic of child abuse (which this thread devolved into) is a tough one for me, and I quit thinking for a few posts. Once again I apologize from my end. In the future, I plan on sticking to the discussion, as long as you all don't shun me for past mistakes. Chris From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 19:01:33 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:01:33 -0000 Subject: WW POV and acceptance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131687 Chris: > I will concede that if we view morality, law, and standards of > society from a WW point of view, then Snape is more than obliged to > act the way he has been acting. I can only hope that within the books, > these kids learn from his actions and go on to become functional > adults who contribute to change within their society. Alla: I really liked what Nora said in 131676. "A middle path is, of course, less exciting but eminently possible. To completely dismiss outsider critique is to cut off one of the most powerful forces for much-needed reform--Voice." Is what Snape doing agreeable by many standards of WW? Quite possible. Am I as a reader obliged to accept that this is how it is supposed to be, always will be and that no reform should follow? Not to me, but then I am of the opinion that WW is a muggle world in disguise, not alien race to which our morals are inapplicable. In fact, I think that JKR is doing exactly that - leads to the eventual radical shake up of WW. Who knows, maybe at the end Lupin will indeed become Headmaster. Just my opinion, Alla. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 19:24:24 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:24:24 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Phoenix in particular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131688 > John K: > As far as really and truly dying... somewhere I picked up the idea > that Fawkes may have belonged to Godric Gryffindor, but I never > pictured him as being much older than that (and even that's perhaps > just a flight of fancy, if you'll pardon the pun). It's interesting > to consider - for example, when Dumbledore dies, will Fawkes die as > well, like my grandfather's clock? Or could his death foreshadow > Dumbledore's? Perhaps he can only be killed when he is not yet full- > grown. Or perhaps his mortality is simply irrelevant. Alla: I am in a very speculative mood today, but as long as it is about canon, why not? :-) I think that Fawkes belonging to Godric is a possibility, especially since he brought the Hat with the Sword to Harry. I also think that in light of the fact that Dumbledore's patronus is a Phoenix, it is a possibility that Dumbledore gets reborn periodically ( I agree with this possibility in general, I think). So, I think I may also be agreeable to the idea that Dumbledore is a Godric reincarnation and Voldemort - Slytherin reincarnation. I don't remember the names of the posters who raised these speculations first, sorry. John K: > Fawkes is certainly one of the most fascinating creatures Jo Rowling > has presented us with. I shall be keeping my eye out for him. Alla: Agreed. JMO, Alla From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 19:32:25 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:32:25 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131689 Chris labmystc wrote: "So, if person A is doing what he is doing, person B just has to deal with it? What about person C, D, E, F and so on and so forth. When enough people get together to say one thing is wrong, or that they feel person A is a problem, usually that is enough to prove there is in fact a problem, right?" Del replies: It depends on what you call "enough". If "a lot of" people get together to say one thing is wrong, then it means that that thing is quickly becoming not morally acceptable by their society's standards anymore. But if "a few" people get together to say they disagree with something, it might only mean that they are misfits. It does not necessarily mean that they are visionaries who have a higher morality. For example, if a couple of students argued that a fat person is not a good role-model, and that consequently no fat person should be allowed to teach kids, would you call them visionaries or misfits? Chris labmystc wrote: "If Harry and the rest come out and say that Snape is unnecessarily abusive toward them, that's enough. Regardless of what the society's rules and morality are, if there is a widespread problem with enough people complaining, something has to be done." Del replies: I quite agree. However, NOBODY is complaining about Snape to ANYONE in power. IIRC, not even Harry or Neville ever talked to DD or McG about Snape. And I can't remember any other student ever saying that they had a real problem with Snape. Chris labmystc wrote: "People stood up when they had a problem regardless of what society at the time thought, and enacted change! Why can't Harry and the other students do the same?" Del replies: I never said they can't do the same! In fact, I encourage them to do the same. But the problem is that they don't WANT to! NONE of them has EVER tried to enact such a change. And if THEY won't fight, why should anyone else fight for them? Chris labmystc wrote: "Really? I always thought that the collective consciousness of a society was based on the individual consciounesses of the society at large." Del replies: Agreed. And the general WW morality seems to be that Snape's methods are fine... Chris labmystc wrote: "But do these "repulsive" things of a society personally impact upon an individual? Society generally accepts homosexuality, but there are many who find this lifestyle repulsive. Does this lifestyle have a personal impact on these people? No, it does not. Homosexuals live out their lives without ever being around or involved with these individuals." Del replies: I disagree. When homosexuality is taught as normal in school to children, then they are impacted. And yes I know that it hasn't happened yet, but it will. I read an article recently about a school that tried to do just that in the US. It was stopped by the parents getting in league to prevent it. Which goes to show that accepting homosexuality DOES ALREADY impact everyone. Chris labmystc wrote: "Not so with Snape and the students. He is personally impacting each one of the children that he is in contact with." Del replies: Agreed. But is he *traumatising* all of them? I don't think so. And *that* is what matters. The fact that the kids have a teacher they don't like is of no importance (think of Hagrid and the Ravenclaws, or the boys and Lockhart). It's the fact that some of them are traumatised or abused by him that matters. And so far we know of only one kid who is traumatised by Snape, and a second one who is abused. By Muggle standards (and by mine, make no mistake), this is already way too much, but it seems to be acceptable by WW standards. Now, I am ALL for someone, anyone, in the WW to argue the case that the WW standards stink, and that a no-casualty rule should be implemented. But as long as nobody does it, then our criticising Snape for having a few casualties is pointless. Chris labmystc wrote: "The wizarding society may accept this behavioe as a whole, but individuals like Harry, Neville, and the others do not." Del replies: Actually, they do. They don't complain, do they? They don't band together, they don't take action, they don't write a Letter to the Headmaster, or to the Board of Governors. Nothing, they do absolutely nothing. Chris labmystc wrote: "But Harry doesn't have a problem with the way Snape looks at him. He has a problem with the way he is being treated and spoken to. Does looking at someone really cause them harm in anyway, whether they like the way you look at them or not? No. But verbally abusing and mistreating someone does." Del replies: No, it doesn't necessarily. Many kids are not hurt by verbal abuse or mistreatment. They don't like it, sure, but they are not hurt by it either. Honestly, Neville seems to be the only one hurt by Snape's verbal abuse. Even Harry is not really *hurt* by Snape's treatment. He is angered and upset by it, sure, but he's not hurt by it. As others have pointed out, he doesn't have nightmares about Snape, Snape is nowhere in the list of his worst fears, and so on. And when Snape leaves him alone, Harry has no problem going to Potions lessons. Chris labmystc wrote: "But the WW, in absence of a constitution would use these educational decrees and any other orders by the Ministry as law. Who decides that these laws are immoral, the people enacting them or the people in society that have to live by them? Obviously, Umbridge didn't think that these decrees were immoral, so they must not be. Oh, wait. Everyone else thought they sucked, but that's ok. It's acceptable because she's the High Inquisitor." Del replies: Technically, yes. This is precisely why nobody at school, not even DD, could do anything: they had their hands tied by the fact that those Decrees were perfectly legal. Sure they were immoral, and the teachers clearly showed they disagreed with them, but they had no legal recourse against them. What is badly needed in the WW is something like a Constitution. Something that states the basic rights of people, and the basic acceptable and non-acceptable beliefs. As long as there is no such Constitution, the WW is at the mercy of the current political powers : Crouch sending people to Azkaban without a trial, Umbridge and her Decrees, Fudge having a suspect soul-sucked without a trial, and of course the DEs freely spouting their purebloodist trash. Chris labmystc wrote: "Who says you have to swallow it? Did Ghandi, did Martin Luther King? Did Martin Luther in his Protestant Reformation? Did Abraham Lincoln? Are we as individuals so small that we cannot do what we can to enact change? The answer is no. The reason things stay the same is because nobody has the guts to stand up and try to change it. We should just deal with what we can, and ignore everythig else that bothers us? No." Del replies: It's not just the guts, you know :) It's also the means and the support. Not to mention the will to risk one's life, and even more others' lives... Chris labmystc wrote: "UH, I'm not in the books. I believe Harry, Neville, Hermione, Lavender, Patil, all the Weasleys, Sirius, Remus Lupin, Mad-Eye Moody, more than likely James AND Lily were they alive...sounds like they have a problem with it. I think I have fictional back-up on this one..." Del replies: I'd like to see it. I'd like to see where any of them ever indicated that they wanted to take action against Snape, or even that they were truly disturbed by Snape. Sure they don't like him, but apart from James, Lily and Sirius, I don't remember any of them actually DOING something against Snape, not even reporting him. Chris labmystc wrote: "Who is asking him to act like or be a convict? I'm just saying he should start treating the children a little bit better, as most adults would do in a "civilized" society." Del replies: Careful ;) Are you saying that the British society of a few decades ago was not civilised? Chris labmystc wrote: "You're right. He has no obligation to be nice, treat children with respect, teach in a constructive manner, be a good human being and role model for his students, or in any way act like a respectable adult in a position of power. He should continue abusing his authority, lower children's self-respect and esteem, berate those with less authority and power than himself, and overall act like a general ass. I applaud him!" Del replies: Using sarcasm won't get you anywhere. You know perfectly well that I am not saying I approve his behaviour, nor am I encouraging him to keep at it. Moreover, you still haven't demonstrated that Snape DOES have ANY obligation to be nice. Can you do so? Chris labmystc wrote: "Since these books are called "Harry Potter and the..." and you say Potterverse, I think Harry has a little say too. :-) " Del replies: Too bad he doesn't say anything then... Chris labmystc wrote: "Unusual for most of the rational, free-thinking adults. Yes." Del replies: I'm not sure what you mean by that? Chris labmystc wrote: "You're right. The first thing I plan on teaching my children when they're older is that they can walk over anybody, make fun of less fortunate people, criticize anyone and anything they wish, and be little monsters if they feel like it. As a matter of fact, I will save my copies of the books and tell them I hope they are more like Snape when they are adults. Oh yeah. Then again I won't. Because the last thing I want to do is add more pieces of crap into what we call society." Del replies: Useless sarcasm again. Am I advocating that we teach kids to be like Snape? You should know that this is not what I mean. I am going to teach my son to be nice, because as a Christian I "believe in" niceness. But does that mean that I have a right to impose this standard on anyone else? No. Other people have a RIGHT to choose to be un-nice if they want to. If you can prove otherwise, then please do so. Del From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 19:40:12 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:40:12 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131690 > bboyminn: > > First are 'Entailments' which are legal conditions tied to an estate > that can have legal precedence that can be applied across centuries, > in some cases applied to an estate forever. a_svirn: As far as I know entails were supposed to be confirmed in each generation. Moreover, they could be "broken" with the heir's consent (provided that he was of age). That's how many a gentleman managed to squander away their estates. Granted, Sirius wasn't likely to cooperate with his father on the matter in question. > bboyminn: > Further, this same condition of the first born male getting > everything, is part of Old English Common Law. Again, to prevent the > family fortune from being diluted. > a_svirn: I believe under the common law provisions for the widow and the younger children were supposed to be made. I don't remember the details, but I believe up to the third of the whole estate went to the widow (provided, of course, that there was no Will, or that it was legally overturned). From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Wed Jun 29 20:26:54 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:26:54 -0000 Subject: That Night at Godric's Hollow - a discussion of what I'll be looking out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jamie" wrote: > I've been most interested in what this chapter "13 years in the > brewing" could be. I'm thinking it may involve Petunia reading > Dumbledore's letter and her reaction to everything in it. I believe > there is a little more to Petunia than we've seen and I look forward to > finding out soon. Miz Storge replies: Yes, this is the crux of the whole thing: who was there, how You-Know- Who was tipped off, how Dumbledore and Sirius found out what had happened,how the curse rebounded and how Petunia reacted. But I bet JKR keeps us waiting til Book7! From jmrazo at hotmail.com Wed Jun 29 21:06:21 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:06:21 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131692 I hate that redheaded red herring for Harry's affections. Especially after OOTP. I hated the way she burst onto the scene with supercool flying ability and quiddich love (never once mentioned before). I hate the way she's apparently a powerful witch (also never mentioned before. You'd think someone would have noticed before now). I hate that suddenly she's Hermiones bestest girlfriend in the world ( a relationhip that happened totally offscreen, just like everything else thats supposed to make Ginny cool). I hate her attitude as a little mini-molly ball buster who had to get into Harry's face about things she knew nothing about. She's an annoying, poorly written, poorly foreshadowed character with an inexplicable fanbase considering what she's actually done. Most of all, I hate that deep down inside, although I pray it won't happen, I think that Rowling is going to hook her and Harry up. "She never shuts up," does not a characterization make regardless of what Ginny defenders think. Nothing about the way she acted in OOTP made sense at all when you think about anything shes done in the past books. phoenixgod2000, who just wanted to post something about someone other than Snape From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 22:07:29 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050629220729.57292.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131693 Phoenixgod: > I hate that redheaded red herring for Harry's affections. Especially after OOTP. I hated the way she burst onto the scene with supercool flying ability and quiddich love (never once mentioned before). I hate the way she's apparently a powerful witch (also never mentioned before. You'd think someone would have noticed before now). I hate that suddenly she's Hermiones bestest girlfriend in the world ( a relationhip that happened totally offscreen, just like everything else thats supposed to make Ginny cool). Juli: I agree a bit with you, I don't like Ginny. When we first met her I thought she was ok, she was this cute shy little girl, who like many others fell for our heroe, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that, but then out of nowhere she's everywhere, her personality has change, in fact I find her annoying, and I hope Harry doesn't end up with her, I want Harry to find love with someone new. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jun 29 22:23:22 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:23:22 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? Common Law Ref. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131694 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > bboyminn: > > > > First are 'Entailments' which are legal conditions tied to > > an estate that can have legal precedence that can be applied > > across centuries, in some cases applied to an estate forever. > > a_svirn: > > As far as I know entails were supposed to be confirmed in each > generation. Moreover, they could be "broken" with the heir's consent > ... > > > bboyminn: > > > Further, this same condition of the first born male getting > > everything, is part of Old English Common Law. Again, to prevent > > the family fortune from being diluted. > > > > > a_svirn: > > I believe under the common law provisions for the widow and the > younger children were supposed to be made.... bboyminn: I'm sure I posted this before, but I haven't been able to track down the link, so here it is again - English Common Law of Inheritance - "Addressing the Duke and Inheriting his Loot" http://it.uwp.edu/lansdowne/als.html Normal Rules for Inheritance of Property Under English Common Law all property descended to the eldest surviving son, .... If there were neither brothers nor sisters it could not ascend to the father, uncles, grandfather etc. ***It always descended, never ascended.*** Note that this differs from the rules for titles, which could ascend (to an uncle, for instance). Common Law made no provision whatever for a man's younger descendants other than the eldest's obligation by honor to care for them. Not all were honorable, however, and Common Law could and sometimes did leave the younger descendants in dire straits, ... Patents: The patent comes from the Crown and grants the title (Duke, Marquess, Earl etc). Along with the title comes outright ownership of certain real property (the titleholder's seat of power). All real property included with the patent is automatically entailed to the titleholder and his rightful heirs in perpetuity. ... Entails: Other real property owned by a peer or major landowner (the landed gentry) can be entailed by the titleholder/landowner himself, in a document that carries the force of civil law. Originally these entailments were either in perpetuity or for as long as four hundred years or many generations, ... Entails were a legal contract under civil law. If the landowner or titleholder wished all of his property to go to his primary (male) heir there was no need for a document outlining the entails, as under Common Law that would automatically be the case. If on the other hand he wanted the option to provide for his wife, younger sons or his daughters either by settlement or later by will, he (rather his solicitor) drew up the entails, ... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wills and Settlements: Apparently only apply to unentailed property. There is much more there, but I don't want to quote it all. So, the inheritance by the eldest surviving son was automatic, there didn't have to be any documentation to establish it. Property can only descend. Depending on the time in history, entailments could last a few hundred years or the could last forever. Although, perpetual entailments we later outlawed. My guess is that Sirius's personal property and money are unentailed and he can do with them as he pleases, which probably means Harry get them. However, the Black Estate is mostly ruled by very strict quidelines. I'm still hoping for a fight over the estate between Harry and Draco. Harry won't really want the money or property, but he will fiercely NOT want Draco to get it. Just some basic reference info. Steve/bboyminn From alishak at spu.edu Wed Jun 29 23:52:09 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:52:09 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131695 I don't know if anyone has posted on this before (don't you get tired of reading that sometimes), but I was wondering a little something about the Marauder's Map. In CoS, Arthur has the memorable line, "Don't trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain." When Harry first uses the map, he even remembers this advice. My question is, will JKR ever show us why the map shouldn't be trusted? It seems like she meant Arthur's advice to be sound, but Harry's quick dismissal of it seems like a cop-out (if it was indeed meant to set our fears to rest). It's almost like JKR said, "Oh, crap! I've set this precedent for dealing with magical objects, but I really like this one, and I don't want my readers to be suspicious of it. What can I do? I know, I'll just have Harry remember the advice and then decide it's worth the risk. Then no one will worry." Am I the only one who's interested in how the map will play into future plot lines? -Alisha: who sincerely hopes we see the map playing a trick on us later. From cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com Thu Jun 30 00:38:27 2005 From: cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com (Claire) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:38:27 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131697 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > I hate that redheaded red herring for Harry's affections. > Especially after OOTP. I hated the way she burst onto the scene with > supercool flying ability and quiddich love (never once mentioned > before). I hate the way she's apparently a powerful witch (also > never mentioned before. You'd think someone would have noticed > before now). I hate that suddenly she's Hermiones bestest girlfriend > in the world ( a relationhip that happened totally offscreen, just > like everything else thats supposed to make Ginny cool). I hate her > attitude as a little mini-molly ball buster who had to get into > Harry's face about things she knew nothing about. She's an > annoying, poorly written, poorly foreshadowed character with an > inexplicable fanbase considering what she's actually done. > > Most of all, I hate that deep down inside, although I pray it won't > happen, I think that Rowling is going to hook her and Harry up. > > "She never shuts up," does not a characterization make regardless of > what Ginny defenders think. Nothing about the way she acted in OOTP > made sense at all when you think about anything shes done in the > past books. > > phoenixgod2000, who just wanted to post something about someone > other than Snape Claire's response: I don't agree with you, phoenix. I believe JKR has been holding back on Ginny's capabilities because the rest of her family discounts it. How would you like being the only girl with six brothers? My brother was the only boy with 7 sisters, and didn't get "noticed", if you will, until he went into college and his personality was strong enough to counteract whatever we could dish out. (We didn't think he'd live past puberty and yet he has become the rock of the family.) I believe Ginny is the same -- a lynchpin - - her powers have been growing steadily through the books. Especially since she has gotten over her initial infatuation with Harry and is no longer the tongue-tied, dewy-eyed, blinded-by-the- fame-of-Harry young girl. Ginny using stealth to break into the broom closet and practicing Quidditch without her brothers, especially George and Fred, knowing is, IMO, a testament to her resilience. Harry could do worse. It appears to me as if she has a some of the qualities Lily had at Ginny's age. I look forward to her blossoming into a more delightful character and giving Harry a run for his money. Claire From smilingator81 at aol.com Thu Jun 30 00:27:47 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:27:47 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131698 phoenixgod2000: She's [referring to Ginny] an > annoying, poorly written, poorly foreshadowed character with an > inexplicable fanbase considering what she's actually done... Nothing about the way she acted in OOTP > made sense at all when you think about anything shes done in the > past books. smilingator4915: Except for Ginny's role at the end of CoS, I too never really thought much about her until reading OotP. But let's remember that we are following Harry in these books, not any of the other characters. Since Ron and Hermione spend a lot of time with the hero, then we get to see all sides of their personalities. But honestly, who saw that Krum and Hermione would end up at the Yule Ball together? The fact that Hermione and Ginny are good friends is of little surprise to me. After all, Hermione is a girl and does not spend much time with the boys when they are in their dorm rooms. I always wondered what Hermione did/talked about when she was in her dorm room. Hermione has visited the Weasleys over the summer, Ginny's company was probably a pleasant escape from Ron and the twins. Instead of being so hard on Ginny's characterization, maybe we should be asking why JKR all of a sudden is showing Ginny's true colors. Who else has been introduced to us in the books but because Harry spends little time with them, we do not know what their abilities and talents are? Just my thoughts... From pipes814 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 00:36:22 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:36:22 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131699 Alisha wrote: > I don't know if anyone has posted on this before (don't you get > tired of reading that sometimes), but I was wondering a little > something about the Marauder's Map. > > In CoS, Arthur has the memorable line, "Don't trust anything that > can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain." > When Harry first uses the map, he even remembers this advice. > > My question is, will JKR ever show us why the map shouldn't be > trusted? I believe Arthur said this to protect them from potential Dark Magic objects. I'm sure there are magical objects that are not dangerous, but either Ginny is too young to distinguish the two, or perhaps only particularly skilled wizards can do so. Yes, Harry chose not to heed this advice on one occasion, but he tends to be one to take risks. Luckily, the creators of the map were not dark wizards, so although it's possible that through some mistake it's not foolproof, it won't wilfully trick anyone. I do also wonder what use the map may have in future. Jamie From srbecca at hotmail.com Thu Jun 30 00:52:31 2005 From: srbecca at hotmail.com (Rebecca Dreiling) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:52:31 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131700 As a female with no sisters and 3 brothers I know what it is like to be ignored for the most part by my older brother and his friends. That is until I started reaching a dating age. Then my brother's only concern was keeping his friends and peers away from me..much like Ron does with Ginny. Boys aren't all that keen to hang out with their little sisters..much less hang out with them with their friends... That is until you start becoming "dateable" or are going to the same high school and share interests.. This is just my experience. Since I am the only female of my generation in my family (on both sides!) I get the Ginny story line. I was pretty much ignored until I was 13-14 by my brother and his friends..before then I was just a baby. After I hit puberty my brother's friends suddenly started to become interested in what I had to say or what my interests were. Hormones sure are fun. Rebecca From lhuntley at fandm.edu Thu Jun 30 02:18:15 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:18:15 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131701 YES, YES, YES! Phoenixgod, I think I love you. I may even have to forgive you for all those horrible things you said about Hermione. *grins* Now, onto the stuff that will make this *not* a unforgivable "me too" post. Claire said: > How would you like being the only girl with six > brothers? My brother was the only boy with 7 sisters, and didn't > get "noticed", if you will, until he went into college and his > personality was strong enough to counteract whatever we could dish > out. Rebecca said: > As a female with no sisters and 3 brothers I know what it is like to be > ignored for the most part by my older brother and his friends. > This is just my experience. Since I am the only female of my generation in > my family (on both sides!) > I get the Ginny story line. I was pretty much ignored until I was 13-14 by > my brother and his friends..before then I was just a baby. After I hit > puberty my brother's friends suddenly started to become interested in what I > had to say or what my interests were. Hormones sure are fun. Both of these are totally valid responses with respect to RL. However, HP is a *story*. In a story, you really do need to follow the "show, don't tell" rule when it comes to characterization. It's true that we're (sort of) limited to Harry's POV, but IMO Jo could have/should have dropped little hints along the way that Ginny was going to go Super!Girl in OotP. A good example of this would be the twins scratching their heads and wondering where their brooms had got to, perhaps, and a bit later a part about Ginny coming in looking flushed or perhaps Ron being unable to find her. JKR's done this sort of thing before, and done it masterfully, which is part of the reason that Ginny's characterization seems especially bad and out-of-the-blue to me. smilingator4915: > Except for Ginny's role at the end of CoS, I too never really thought > much about her until reading OotP. But let's remember that we are > following Harry in these books, not any of the other characters. Since > Ron and Hermione spend a lot of time with the hero, then we get to see > all sides of their personalities. But honestly, who saw that Krum and > Hermione would end up at the Yule Ball together? Ahh, you've made my point for me. ^_~ See, JKR left "clues" that Viktor was staking out Hermione. She had a build-up with Hermione's refusal to name her date. She also had the reader's attention drawn to the topic. I agree that most people probably did not guess the "twist", but that's not the point. A good twist is not easily guessable, but it *is* something you should be able to look back and say "Oh, yeah!" about. Not only did JKR do none of these things for Ginny, a characterization should really not be a twist, per se, unless there's a very, very good reason for it. If, as Phoenixgod and I suspect, the reason is to quickly beef up her to be The Perfect Girl For Harry in the upcoming books . . . well, that is a pretty lousy reason, IMO. Personally, the only conclusions I can think of that would make me accept her characterizations as is are 1) She's actually residually evil from Tom's influence in CoS or 2) She's actually a plot device to show how cool *Neville* is (by ending up with him, that is). Option 2) is actually quite satisfying, if you think about it. The girl that spent her childhood mooning after an idealized "hero" she didn't really know grows up to recognize that some people are "quiet heroes", once you take the time to know and appreciate them. Hey, he did try to "save" her from the IS when Umbridge guessed that Harry was trying to break into her office. Claire, again: > I believe Ginny is the same -- a lynchpin -- > her powers have been growing steadily through the books. My response to this is: SHOW ME. This isn't really a challenge to you though -- it's a challenge to JKR. To me, it seemed like Ginny's "steady" growth rather suddenly exploded onto the scene in OotP. *shrugs* But then, to be fair, I never did like her. Laura From prncssme at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 03:02:11 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 03:02:11 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131702 Phoenixgod says: > "She never shuts up," does not a characterization make regardless of > what Ginny defenders think. Nothing about the way she acted in OOTP > made sense at all when you think about anything shes done in the > past books. > > phoenixgod2000, who just wanted to post something about someone > other than Snape Princess Sara replies: You and I just can't seem to agree on anything, can we? ;o) I personally am a fan of Ginny and had been expecting more of her in OotP. Perhaps I just like the James/Lily-Harry/ Ginny parallels, but I digress. I present to you a theory on why, all of a sudden, Ginny has burst onto the scene. We all agree that the HP books are written from Harry's POV, a view which many have admitted is skewed through his perceptions. Up until OotP, Harry has had little call to notice Ginny as anything more than his best friend's little sister. She's been a side note. However, in OotP, Harry realizes that Ginny is very much over her crush on him and I think that makes Harry sit up and take notice. I think this revelation surprises Harry out of his view of Ginny as "annoying little sister" to real person. Because this shift happens for Harry, it happens for us through the Harry POV narration. I think that this new awareness will cause the build up of romantic feelings throughout HBP, although I don't think they'll get together until Book 7, if at all. On a side note, I think that Harry's preoccupation (without realizing it's a preoccupation) with Ginny's love life is what has led to the Slut!Ginny characterization. Harry realizes Ginny's got a boyfriend and dwells on it so her actions are blown out of proportion. Princess Sara with her two knuts From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Jun 30 03:17:00 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 03:17:00 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > I hate that redheaded red herring for Harry's affections. > Especially after OOTP. I hated the way she burst onto the scene with > supercool flying ability and quiddich love (never once mentioned > before). I hate the way she's apparently a powerful witch (also > never mentioned before. You'd think someone would have noticed > before now). I hate that suddenly she's Hermiones bestest girlfriend > in the world ( a relationhip that happened totally offscreen, just > like everything else thats supposed to make Ginny cool). I hate her > attitude as a little mini-molly ball buster who had to get into > Harry's face about things she knew nothing about. She's an > annoying, poorly written, poorly foreshadowed character with an > inexplicable fanbase considering what she's actually done. > > Most of all, I hate that deep down inside, although I pray it won't > happen, I think that Rowling is going to hook her and Harry up. > Chuckle. I agree that the epiphany of Ginny Weasley was contrived and very poorly written. However, considering the number of poorly written travesties in OOTP (the incredibly silly Prefect situation, Dumbledore's speech in which the epitome of goodness is revealed to regard child abuse as a minor and unimportant matter, McGonagall's breathtaking stupidity), it was a relatively minor sin. I also agree that Ginny is probably being set up as Harry's love interest. I don't really object to that, per se, as it was heavily forshadowed in CoS. It's more that it seems JKR forgot to do her development work in the last couple of books and had to squeeze three books work into one. At this point, who could serve as Harry's love interest without it being a situation even more contrived than the sudden development of Ginny? Luna might well be the only candidate. Otherwise, Harry would have to take up with a relative unknown, who would then have to be developed even more quickly than Ginny. So, all told, not well done on JKR's part, but considering the huge problems and flaws she introduced in OOTP, not worth stewing over very much. Lupinlore From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Jun 30 03:27:27 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:27:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00b401c57d23$a4b65fb0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 131704 My response to this is: SHOW ME. This isn't really a challenge to you though -- it's a challenge to JKR. To me, it seemed like Ginny's "steady" growth rather suddenly exploded onto the scene in OotP. *shrugs* But then, to be fair, I never did like her. Laura Sherry now: Funny, I was not at all surprised by Ginny in OOTP. Am I the only one who did see it coming? In each book, except POA I think, she's become a little more of a character, a little more interesting and having a little more personality. I just started reading GOF again, and actually paid attention to the scene when Harry arrives at the burrow, and he, Ron, Hermione *and* Ginny all go upstairs to avoid the wrath of Molly and the twins. Before the events in COS, Ginny would have been too shy to go socialize around Harry. It seemed like a natural maturing on her part, her trauma in the chamber wiping away the school girl in some ways forever. I can't quote canon here, but Ginny seems to me to be coming out of her shell throughout GOF, and her blossoming in OOTP wasn't at all a surprise to me. Well, I usually find I'm in sync with PhoenixGod, about Sirius and Snape, so I guess it was time to differ! sherry From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Jun 30 03:47:11 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 03:47:11 -0000 Subject: Lifespans?... Phoenix in particular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John Kearns" wrote: > > > It's interesting > to consider - for example, when Dumbledore dies, will Fawkes die as > well, like my grandfather's clock? Or could his death foreshadow > Dumbledore's? Perhaps he can only be killed when he is not yet full- > grown. Or perhaps his mortality is simply irrelevant. > Or perhaps when Dumbledore dies (my prediction for the end of book 6), Phoenix will go to Harry's possession and be the "other pet" that Harry may or may not acquire, as JKR has hinted in the past. Allison From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Jun 30 04:05:04 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:05:04 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131706 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prncssme" wrote: > On a side note, I think that Harry's preoccupation (without realizing it's a preoccupation) > with Ginny's love life is what has led to the Slut!Ginny characterization. Harry realizes > Ginny's got a boyfriend and dwells on it so her actions are blown out of proportion. > > Princess Sara with her two knuts I know this is not totally related to this thread (and maybe has already been discussed!), but the blown-out-of-proportion "slut" Ginny characterization really bothers me. We've barely even seen Ginny holding hands with any of the boys; there's no canon for "slut." I don't think Ginny having two boyfriends in one year is SO unrealistic, either, which I've read in a fair number of past posts. She's a 13 or 14-year old girl. They're fickle. I had friends that went through a boyfriend a week at that age! ~Allie (and maybe she did come from the shadows, but I like Ginny! :) ) From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 04:23:19 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:23:19 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > I am supposed to respect someone simply because of the office that they hold? No. (snip)> I do not respect them in any way, so am I uncivilized? (snip> I will agree here. There is no reason for them to stoop to the same level. As a matter of fact, I support a person who would keep their mouth shut, and rise above it all and be the better person. But does this always stop the behavior? NO. How much must a person endure before enough is enough and action is taken? > Tonks: I think you are missing my point, and perhaps I am not being clear. When I hear the phrase "so and so must EARN my respect" that translates to me as: "I can be rude and treat them in a disrespectful manner because I don't like them". Which happens way too often in this day and age by young people toward older people or those in positions of authority. IMO we have become a rude and crude society and I don't do not think that it is right. Children are to learn to treat their teachers and elders with respect. Not just when they *like* them. This is an old fashion idea, but a good one. This has, as I said in my previous post, nothing to do with social change. If a child is being mistreated they should tell someone. But they do not have the right to be rude and crude to a teacher or anyone else just to show off or because they don't happen to like that person for whatever reason. If you live in the U.S. you know what I am talking about if you look around and see the disrespectful manner in which teens and some who are a bit older treat other people. And it is IMO because they can get away with anything in school. The whole *question authority* thing has gone too far the other way. Let's look at LV for example. Watch DD. LV is the most evil person of the times. And yet DD calls him Tom and does what he can to protect himself and others from LV, but he doesn't stand there and insult him. DD doesn't call LV names. DD doesn't try to put rat poison in LV's coffee. DD doesn't do any of the things that some people on this list want Harry to do or say to Snape. And what that says to me is that DD is showing respect for the little bit of *human* that is left in LV. DD does not approve of what LV does. He fights against LV. But when they are face to face, DD acts like a civilized human being. Do you think that makes him less of an adversary to LV? Do you think that means he thinks that what LV does is OK? Or not that bad? Or maybe "well we will wait and see if things get better?" NO. DD is against LV and LV knows it. I know it is not a popular idea in the U.S.; maybe there is still hope for other countries. But IMO!! a child should always treat an adult with respect. They do not have to like the person, they do not have to suffer abuse, they do not have to like what the adult does, but they do not have the right to act like a little snot!! And that is how I interpret the phrase *he must deserve my respect, before I give it*. This type of respect is subjective. One person respects you and someone else doesn't. So one can treat you like Sh..t and the other bows at your feet. I think NOT. Sorry if this is a bit curt. It is one of my pet peeves against the younger generation. Tonks_op From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Jun 30 04:24:45 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:24:45 -0000 Subject: "Holds you in great esteem" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131708 Okay, here's something else to chew on: At the end of OOTP, when Harry first enters DD's office, he is greeted by the portly former headmaster in the painting behind DD's desk (I believe that the HP Lexicon identifies him as Fortescue, but it really doesn't matter). The wizard says (and I'm probably not getting this exactly) "Dumbledore thinks very highly of you, as I'm sure you know. Oh yes, holds you in great esteem." Now, presumably Fortescue (as we'll call him) knows this because he's overheard DD say as much -- we don't have any evidence for paintings having telepathic powers. But, here's the interesting part: Who has Dumbledore said it TO? What kind of conversations has Fortescue overheard or been a part of? To whom has DD expressed these opinions? McGonagall? Snape? Certainly the painting seemed to imply this was more than a one-time phenomenon, and also that it had been fairly recent (although perhaps that is speculating too much). In short, what sort of conversations about Harry has DD been having in his office which have led him to express these opinions? What events or controversies might have initiated these conversations? Who do you think has been party to them? Why would DD feel the need to express positive opinions in what Fortescue seems to imply was a rather emphatic (or at least very unmistakeable) manner? Here are some possibilities I can think of: To Snape: It seems hard to believe that Harry's name doesn't arise fairly regularly when Snape visits DD's office. It's also easy to imagine that DD would find it necessary to be, err, CLEAR in his opinions when talking to Snape. Perhaps his request that Snape teach Harry Occlumency would be an example? To Umbridge: Hard to know what Umbridge said to DD in private, assuming they did indeed meet in private. But it seems plausible that they would and that the subject of Harry would arise. Once again, one might see Dumbledore being quite emphatic -- although, in the case of Umbridge, he might deliberately downplay the subject so as to keep Umbridge's suspicions from becoming even further aroused. To McGonagall: She and DD would certainly meet fairly often, and it's easy to imagine that Harry's name would come up with some regularity. But would DD feel it necessary to emphasize his opinions to McGonagall, who presumably would already be familiar with them -- and be unlikely to challenge them. So, perhaps Snape would be the best candidate, although that is sheer speculation and one can make plausible arguments for all kinds of scenarios. Which ones do you favor and why? Lupinlore From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 05:25:34 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:25:34 -0000 Subject: "Holds you in great esteem" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: The wizard says (and I'm probably not > getting this exactly) "Dumbledore thinks very highly of you, as I'm sure you know. Oh yes, holds you in great esteem." > > Now, presumably Fortescue (as we'll call him) knows this because he's overheard DD say as much (snip) Who has Dumbledore said it TO? What kind of conversations has Fortescue overheard or been a part of? To whom has DD expressed these opinions? McGonagall? Snape? Tonks: Well I think that DD could have been thinking about Harry and talking about him to the old headmasters. The old headmasters talk to DD and they hear everything that goes on in DD's office. They see Harry when he comes in after one of his adventures. They probably all ask DD questions and discuss Harry with him. I think that might be the main thing. Of course, DD could be talking to Snape too. DD might be reassuring Snape of Harry the same as he reassures Harry about Snape. Snape strikes me as the only one who might have some concern about Harry's abilities. (Umbridge doesn't count.) But basically I think that DD talks to the old headmasters. Tonks_op From PenapartElf at aol.com Thu Jun 30 05:38:06 2005 From: PenapartElf at aol.com (PenapartElf at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:38:06 EDT Subject: MESSAGE - seeking HP fans in Scotland Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131710 Greetings and salutations! A request has arrived here at Hexquarters from Vicky Allan (a reporter with the Scottish newspaper Sunday Herald) who is seeking to speak to adult HP fans in Scotland. As she already has the female perspectives well covered, Vicky is looking for male points of view at this time. Please contact Vicky directly via phone at 0131 620 2806 or via email at vickallan @yahoo.co.uk (without that extra space) if you or someone you know fits the bill. As always, please do not reply to this message on the Main list. To answer this call for interviewee, please contact Vicky directly. Otherwise please send your comments to the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space). We now return you to the regularly scheduled programming of merrily meandering discussion threads. Thanks! :) Penapart Elf for the HPfGU List Admin Team From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jun 30 05:50:32 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:50:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131711 In a message dated 6/29/2005 11:06:01 PM Central Standard Time, AllieS426 at aol.com writes: On a side note, I think that Harry's preoccupation (without realizing it's a preoccupation) > with Ginny's love life is what has led to the Slut!Ginny characterization. Harry realizes > Ginny's got a boyfriend and dwells on it so her actions are blown out of proportion. Ok Umm color me confused but just when has Harry "dwelled" or been "preoccupied" with Ginny's boyfriends without realising it? I just finished a re read of OOTP in preparation for HBP and I don't recall any instances of this happening. Ron OTOH dwelled on and was preoccupied with Ginny's love life several times in OOTP. We know this because Harry knows it (and since we see what Harry sees .. ect) perhaps Harry's noticing of what Ron is doing is what you are referring too? Melissa (who has a 13 year old daughter. And an 11 Y. O. daughter and an 8 Y.O. daughter. . . I hate puberty!!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Jun 30 06:07:40 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:07:40 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > YES, YES, YES! Phoenixgod, I think I love you. I may even have to forgive you for all those > horrible things you said about Hermione. *grins* Who knows what I'll think of Hermione by the end of the series. She's a well written character. Just one I find annoying. Ginny, I find annoying *and* badly written. > Both of these are totally valid responses with respect to RL. However, HP is a *story*. In a > story, you really do need to follow the "show, don't tell" rule when it comes to > characterization. It's true that we're (sort of) limited to Harry's POV, but IMO Jo could > have/should have dropped little hints along the way that Ginny was going to go Super!Girl > in OotP. I agree with you. Rowling did a great job of showing Nevilles transformation, a large part of which happens internally or off screen, yet it is still absolutely plausible when by the end of the book, he is second man standing after Harry. It wouldn't be hard to lay down track to show Ginny's evolution in front of Harry. Maybe have her get really excited during the world cup and talk to him about his favorite team, momentarily forgetting who she was talking to. or have her show her power when she's in the DA by blasting through someone's shield after she loses her temper. Maybe she stays after a few times to help Harry clean up and they talk like real people instead of crush and crushee. all it would take is to *show* Ginny change in front of Harry. There is also not the slightest indication of any of her interests before this book. How hard would it be to show Ginny's interest in Quiddich before now? Instead all we get is Hermione talking about how Ginny changed. It's clumsy writing. We get implausible stories about her taking out her brothers brooms to practice alone. I'm supposed to believe that the weasley twins, pranksters extraordinare, have their brooms in an easily found location unguarded by one of their oddly effective prank charms? Or that Molly doesn't have a ward or a chime, or some other sort of magical measure to prevent her kids from sneaking around? Please. The idea that she could get away with it at all, let alone for an extended period of time, is just silly. The end of the book was another let down when it came to Ginny. We here about how great her hexes are, how she's so powerful despite being tiny, and she throws a temper tantrum so she can go to the department of mysteries, and what happens? She's practically the first one down, the first one if I'm not mistaken. Throughout OOTP Ginny is all talk and no payoff. But she's so in your face with her attitude that it makes her character deeply annoying. At least to me. > smilingator4915: > > Except for Ginny's role at the end of CoS, I too never really thought > > much about her until reading OotP. But let's remember that we are > > following Harry in these books, not any of the other characters. Since > > Ron and Hermione spend a lot of time with the hero, then we get to see > > all sides of their personalities. But honestly, who saw that Krum and > > Hermione would end up at the Yule Ball together? I did. It was pretty obvious to me that Hermione and Krum were going to have some kind of fling and a date to the yule ball was a good guess. > Not only did JKR do none of these things for Ginny, a characterization should really not be > a twist, per se, unless there's a very, very good reason for it. If, as Phoenixgod and I > suspect, the reason is to quickly beef up her to be The Perfect Girl For Harry in the > upcoming books . . . well, that is a pretty lousy reason, IMO. Another possiblity that I've heard which makes me feel a lot better is this: Rowling shorthands Ginny's characterization because her character isn't ultimately that important, unlike Neville. While that seems plausible, I think that because of CoS supposed importance for the overall story, I don't see that happening. > Personally, the only conclusions I can think of that would make me accept her > characterizations as is are 1) She's actually residually evil from Tom's influence in CoS or > 2) She's actually a plot device to show how cool *Neville* is (by ending up with him, that > is). I like option two as well. It has a very Molly-Arthur vibe. Thanks for the support Laura. Your in the club! phoenixgod2000, who as much as he hates ginny, does not believe in Slut!Ginny. Ginny isn't a slut, she's just annoying. From tinglinger at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 07:18:01 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:18:01 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map + Invisibility Cloak = Disaster (once DD Gone) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131713 Jamie Luckily, the creators of the map were not dark wizards, so although it's possible that through some mistake it's not foolproof, it won't wilfully trick anyone. I do also wonder what use the map may have in future. Tinglinger The Marauder's Map has two properties that seem to have been forgotten, since Jo has not mentioned them since Harry first used the map in Chapter 10 POA. (All references to Ch 10 POA 194-195 am ed) First, the map can reveal passwords........ "Harry watched carefully. His little ink self appeared to be tapping the witch with his minute wand. Harry quickly took out his real wand and tapped the statue. Nothing happened. He looked back at the map. The tiniest speech bubble had appeared next to his figure. The word inside said, "Dissendium."" "Dissendium!" Harry whispered, tapping the stone witch again. At once the statue's hump opened wide enough to admit a very thin person. Hmmm .. quite useful to get around Hogwarts. And with an invisibility cloak, noone is the wiser...... Second, the map may actually influence it's user to get on with their agenda... (Emphasis added) "Harry traced the secret passage to Honeydukes with his finger. Then, quite suddenly, AS THOUGH FOLLOWING ORDERS, he rolled up the map, stuffed it inside his robes, and hurried to the door of the classroom. So I wonder if the MM CAN willfully mislead others - or more properly, not be concerned with the consequences of WHERE others are led by it's use.... Hmmm, how about Dumbledore's office? I wonder what might have happened if Umbridge had the map and knew how to use it? And let us not forget that 1) Pettigrew, a known traitor, was one of the authors of the MM and knows how it works, and 2) Lupin, whose motives are not necessarily 100% pure gave the map back to Harry at the end of POA, despite knowing its powers..... We have been told that Dumbledore had placed many protections around Hogwarts so that an enemy would have a hard time accessing the school. However, once he is gone, the MM and a few invisibility cloaks will leave Hogwarts open to invasion by Voldemort and his supporters......... We shall see...... tinglinger who though busy, will be posting more to potterplots in the next two weeks before HBP http://groups.yahoo.com/group/poterplots From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 08:13:59 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:13:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131714 > Tonks: > I think you are missing my point, and perhaps I am not being clear. > When I hear the phrase "so and so must EARN my respect" that > translates to me as: "I can be rude and treat them in a > disrespectful manner because I don't like them". Which happens way > too often in this day and age by young people toward older people or > those in positions of authority. IMO we have become a rude and crude > society and I don't do not think that it is right. Children are to > learn to treat their teachers and elders with respect. Not just > when they *like* them. This is an old fashion idea, but a good one. > > This has, as I said in my previous post, nothing to do with social > change. If a child is being mistreated they should tell someone. > But they do not have the right to be rude and crude to a teacher or > anyone else just to show off or because they don't happen to like > that person for whatever reason. If you live in the U.S. you know > what I am talking about if you look around and see the disrespectful > manner in which teens and some who are a bit older treat other > people. And it is IMO because they can get away with anything in > school. The whole *question authority* thing has gone too far the > other way. Finwitch: To me this idea is horror, because there are adults who seriously mistreat and even abuse children - and I believe that such are more than ready to take full advantage of this sort of 'showing respect' to adults to make the children co-operate with them. What are the poor kids to do? How can a "yes, sir"- child refuse when an adult wants to give them drugs, alcohol, food items the child is (severely) allergic to or candy to a diabetic child... and takes offence at a refusal? If children are not allowed to say no to adults, they may well die because of it... not what you mean, I suppose, but I understand that children will, most likely, fail at telling the difference because of those adults who don't respect the civil rights of children. As for the question authority - adolescents are *supposed* to do that - to become independent adults. Besides, if the teen's in a "disobey you for the sake of disobedience"-mode any smart adult would then tell them to do the opposite of what they want done... As for Harry vs. Snape - well, as I see it, Snape is acting like a bullying adolescent not like a responsible adult. If adults want that respect they must act like responsible adults - and that's what I mean by earning respect. And yes, I do expect adults to behave first - adults have no right whatsoever to insult children (as Snape is regularly doing to Harry and Neville for no reason). They ought to show good example... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 09:02:10 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:02:10 -0000 Subject: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131715 > BriefChronicles now: > If he knew that the DADA position would reveal the professor's darkest > secret, then why would he hire Lupin? Finwitch: It is possible that Dumbledore didn't *know* but doubted it and since all the staff already knew, it's questionable whether Lupin's lycanthropy could be even considered a secret. Dumbledore may have figured that this way he'd find the truth about things like: Did Remus help Sirius escape? etc. Besides, the revealance tended to come out at the end of the year - after this teacher has taught the students. What, I ask, would a student figure, after witnessing Lupin's gentle manner and excellence at his subject and teaching it for a year when this revelation comes out? Probably that being a werewolf is not such a bad thing as Ministry &al. say it is... BTW, Hagrid's secret was *also* revealed after he became a professor, so that spell might not be limited to DADA at all. He, however, managed to keep the secret for over a year... I wonder, though -- could these few lines of Hogwarts school song (that Dumbledore conducted for the Weasley twins) be a magically binding contract? 'So teach us things worth knowing, Bring back what we've forgot, Just do your best, we'll do the rest, And learn until our brains all rot.' I ask you, why did the teachers' smiles become fixed when Dumbledore came about with the song? Finwitch From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 30 09:17:08 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:17:08 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C44534.14783.6CF6AD1@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 131716 On 30 Jun 2005 at 9:02, finwitch wrote: > I ask you, why did the teachers' smiles become fixed when Dumbledore > came about with the song? Well, that's not at all surprising in my view, I think it's just a reflection of how long the dinner had gone on at that time. The teachers had hasd to sit through the sorting, the dinner (which lasted until everyone 'had eaten as much as they could' - even before desert arrived - and that seems to go on a while as well ('at last the puddings too disappeared'), and then threw Dumbledore talking - and just as it all seems to be over, and they can get out of there and get to bed... Dumbledore announces the school song is to be sung - that's the reason for the smiles becoming fixed - they just want to get out of there and go to bed! It seems to be pretty late - Harry is tired as he goes up to bed, and when they get to their room, he and the others are too tired to talk much - even allowing for the fact that 11 year old on a day of excitement like this might well get tired rather early, there are real indications that this meal does tend to go on quite a while. The teachers are simply bored - and trying not to show it. Besides, anyone who has sat through a school song can tell you how boring that can be (not too bad if you get into the singing of it - but I can certainly remember assemblies that went on way too long...) Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 11:57:36 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:57:36 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > I hate that redheaded red herring for Harry's affections. > > phoenixgod2000, who just wanted to post something about someone > other than Snape KarentheUnicorn's Reply: So, you're saying, you hate Jenny And Snape? So, basicly you hate these two characters for pretty much the same reason. 1. They are in the background most of the time doing their own thing. 2. Harry doesn't know how or why they do the things they do. 3. When all of a sudden Harry has to deal with them.....suddenly, He (and you), are confused as hell about the character.....interesting. Maybe this is JKR's little way of show that, Harry actually doesn't pay attention....hummmmmm... KarentheUnicorn From riberam at glue.umd.edu Thu Jun 30 12:53:42 2005 From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (maryblue67) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:53:42 -0000 Subject: "Holds you in great esteem" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > wrote: > The wizard says (and I'm probably not > > getting this exactly) "Dumbledore thinks very highly of you, as > I'm sure you know. Oh yes, holds you in great esteem." > > > > Now, presumably Fortescue (as we'll call him) knows this because > he's overheard DD say as much (snip) Who has Dumbledore said it TO? > What kind of conversations has Fortescue overheard or been a part > of? To whom has DD expressed these opinions? McGonagall? Snape? > > Tonks: > Well I think that DD could have been thinking about Harry and > talking about him to the old headmasters. The old headmasters talk > to DD and they hear everything that goes on in DD's office. They > see Harry when he comes in after one of his adventures. They > probably all ask DD questions and discuss Harry with him. I think > that might be the main thing. Now me, maryblue67: This is a comment I stopped to ponder on also in my last re-read of OotP. But to me, it is better explained if put together with some of the things Dumbledore tells Harry in his big conversation at the end. Forgive me if my quotes aren't exact, but Dumbledore not only sheds a tear, but also says things like "I never dreamed I would have such a person in my care" or "I cared for you too much". These statements would make sense if either they have had a long friendship relationships, and therefore does not make sense when used refering to the first year, when they have basically just met, or if Dumbledore has reasons to be close emotionally to Harry. While I don't support grandfather or similar theories, I think that Dumbledore and the Potters must have been very close. If Dumbledore had no family, then the Potters might have been like family and their new baby like a grandson, in terms of affection. This said, I think that throught the years the headmasters in the paintings must have been witnesses to this affection, starting long back with the Potters and continuing after Harry came to Hogwarts. In addition, Dumbledore must have discussed all of Harry's achievements and victories in his office, either directly with the headmasters or with them as witnesses. Thus, it would be quite easy to observe Dumbledore's "thinking highly" of Harry. Therefore, I do not think that Fortescue's statement is based on a recent conversation with neither Snape nor anyone else, but a much longer affair. Maryblue67, who was fascinated with the shows of affection from Dumbledore From labmystc at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 12:54:43 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:54:43 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131719 > Finwitch: > > To me this idea is horror, because there are adults who seriously > mistreat and even abuse children - and I believe that such are more > than ready to take full advantage of this sort of 'showing respect' > to adults to make the children co-operate with them. What are the > poor kids to do? How can a "yes, sir"- child refuse when an adult > wants to give them drugs, alcohol, food items the child is (severely) allergic to or candy to a diabetic child... and takes offence at a > refusal? I have to jump in this argument just one more time. I both agree and disagree with Finwitch here. I agree that there are adults in the *real world* who would take advantage of a child like this. Predators that try to kidnap kids by offering them candy to get them in their car are a perfect example. But I don't think that is what Tonks was referring to. I think she means for kids to defer to adults in a more social setting: classrooms, on the street, in a restaurant, things like that. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, Tonks. I agree that teenagers, at least in the U.S, have lost(or not been taught) the characteristic that adults as being older are to be treated with a certain amount of respect. I don't mean to say that children should just blindly follow the lead of adults, and to not question their actions when the adults are blatantly trying to lead them down the wrong path. However, a little deference, and perhaps politeness should be shown. >snip< > > As for the question authority - adolescents are *supposed* to do > that - to become independent adults. Besides, if the teen's in > a "disobey you for the sake of disobedience"-mode any smart adult > would then tell them to do the opposite of what they want done... What teen isn't like this in the real world? I respected my parents and any other adult I came in contact with, but there were times when I disagreed and showed to the adults that I did. But I did it in a *respectful* way. "I'm sorry Mr. SO and SO, I have to disagree with you." Of course I may have been shot down, but I didn't react badly and call the adult an idiot or anything. > As for Harry vs. Snape - well, as I see it, Snape is acting like a > bullying adolescent not like a responsible adult. If adults want > that respect they must act like responsible adults - and that's > what I mean by earning respect. This is what I tried to echo in my earlier posts, and was shot down by a load of reasoning from Del. And now I agree with her. In the world of the books, Snape's actions are considered OK by the people in charge, DD, McG, whoever. If the kids had a real problem with it, they could complain to someone about it, and they may get something to change. But they haven't, so it doesn't. In the RW however, I have to agree with Finwitch. If the adult doesn't act like a grownup, then I at my own age would have trouble respecting them, much less ask a child to do so. The adult has to act like an adult, before he or she deserves to be treated like one. In a RW classroom, if there were a teacher like Snape, I would not recommend that the student having the problem should *go at* the teacher, but someone else in Authority needs to be told about the teacher's actions. For a child in this situation to retaliate, or to be disrespectful, would only get that child in more trouble. The best thing is to notify someone else, or even the parent. > And yes, I do expect adults to behave first - adults have no right > whatsoever to insult children (as Snape is regularly doing to Harry > and Neville for no reason). They ought to show good example... We, as adults, all should expect this. In the books, it is allowed. In the RW, no. Any adult in the RW who acts this way toward children has a serious problem, and should not be allowed to be in that position anyway. But you have to deal with it in a smart manner. I have an example from my life, and it is one of the experiences that make me feel so strongly about this subject. When I was 21, I worked in an autoparts store part-time while going to college. A man was at the counter, and had a little girl with him. He was trying to get a part, but his daughter kept bugging him, and pulling on his pants leg. He yelled at her multiple times, which I ignored...but finally, he slapped her full tilt across the face. She had only needed to go to the bathroom. This was the breaking point for me, and I told him, "You slap that girl like that again, and I'll do the same to you." He, of course, got haughty with me, and asked me to go outside. I obliged him ( I was the only manager on duty, so noone stopped me)and ended up kicking his ass all over the parking lot. I lost my job, but he didn't press charges. I obviously could have handled the situation better, but I didn't. I got my reward though, that little girl actually smiled at me when he dragged himself into his car, and they left. The point is, there are adults like this in varying degrees of temperament out there in the real world, and children don't need to be treated like this by them. Adults must NOT treat kids in this way, either through verbal or physical abuse, and they do not command respect from a child when they act in this manner. Yes, Snape is allowed to, and that is something we have to put up with while reading the books. In the RW, however, we do not. Chris From mich at ntl.sympatico.ca Thu Jun 30 05:13:55 2005 From: mich at ntl.sympatico.ca (Mich Verrier) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:13:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map References: Message-ID: <009701c57d32$870f97b0$ace1e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> No: HPFGUIDX 131720 Alisha: > Am I the only one who's interested in how the map will play into > future plot lines? Hi all. Speaking of the Marauders Map I am wondering, was it used in OotP? Because I seem to remember at the end of GoF Harry not getting it back from the fake Moody but I don't really remember. I think I will have to go through and read the books again. Mich Verrier From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Thu Jun 30 05:58:20 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:58:20 -0000 Subject: "Holds you in great esteem" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131721 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > So, perhaps Snape would be the best candidate, although that is sheer > speculation and one can make plausible arguments for all kinds of > scenarios. Which ones do you favor and why? I think Snape is the most plausible...I can imagine him throwing a tantrum when finding out he had to teach Harry Occlumeny! Snape did say "I assure you I did not beg for the job" (pg519 OotP), so there is evidence that he did discuss/argue teaching Harry with DD, whether or not it was in DD office or at Grimmauld, who is to say. Either way....the people in the portraits can move. It's more plausible that all of the three scenarios you mentioned happened, I am sure DD had all three teachers in his office at some stage, as well as others who may have brought up the subject of Harry (i.e. Hagrid). Another argument would be that Fortescue has another portrait elsewhere and (I assumed that he) would be assisting DD in some spying...sorry....observations needed by the Order (via other portrait(s)). I only assumed this when Mr Weasley was attacked by the snake, and also Phineas talking to Harry, and checking on Sirius. I think the portraits are assisting the Order more than we know. And if so...I am sure DD has discussed Harry at length with them. Not to mention they have heard every experience of Harry's mentioned in DD office (especially when DD took the blame for the DA after the Fudge and Sneak incident - Chpt 27) and now they also know about the prophecy now too. These were just some of the assumptions I made .. pot_of_harry From labmystc at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 13:23:20 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:23:20 -0000 Subject: SHIPS: Jumping on the Bandwagon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131722 I have prevented myself from posting about any potential relationships for Harry since starting this group. However, since the "I hate Ginny Weasley" posts, I'm going to throw in and make a bet of a thousand galleons on what is to happen. Has anyone found it funny that Ginny got over her hero worship of Harry now seems to want no romantic relationship with him whatsoever? Ginny adored Harry for quite some time, and did not get over this until after CoS. Once Harry saved her from certain death, wouldn't those feelings have only been cemented in her permanently? I'm not female (ladies out there, help me) but I would think that if I adored a guy, and then he saves my life, I would only have stronger feelings for him. Even taking into account the embarassment Ginny would feel over being the cause of everything in CoS, I still don't think she would get over him but idolize him more. Yes, the way in which JKR has written Ginny to be a bigger personality than she once was, all of a sudden, has me troubled. Is she setting her up as a love interest, someone with the will and personality to rival Harry's? Possibly, but I don't think so. I think she may just be preparing Ginny for an integral role in the war ahead. She may have received a little more courage, daring, and power than we have all perceived from her exchange with Tom and the diary. Maybe, like Harry, a little bit of Tom still remains in her. But I don't think she will be romantically linked to Harry. IMO, I think JKR is developing a little bit of a love triangle with the trio that will eventually lead to disaster. JKR seems to think (according to her FAQ on the website) that we should have figured out the romance by now. Here's what I think it is: Ron likes Hermione, as evidenced by his jealousy over her and Krum's relationship. Hermione likes Harry because of his personality and his awesome acumen as a wizard. Harry doesn't even notice Hermione as a potential girlfriend. I think Ron will declare his love for Hermione, Hermione will respond that she likes Harry, Harry will be lost as usual, then the conflict between all three will erupt. Someone posted in the Ginny thread that Hermione and her had become friends because they are in the dormitory away from the boys, and they obviously talked to each other. Perhaps, they talked about Harry, Hermione revealed her feelings, and this is what cooled Ginny off of Harry. This is just my opinion. However, the theory of the love traingle conflict could lead to the theme that friendship trumps all, and conflict will be resolved. JMHO. Chris From jmoses22002 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 11:14:46 2005 From: jmoses22002 at yahoo.com (jmoses22002) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:14:46 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131723 Alisha wrote: > In CoS, Arthur has the memorable line, "Don't trust anything that > can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain." > When Harry first uses the map, he even remembers this advice. > > My question is, will JKR ever show us why the map shouldn't be > trusted? It seems like she meant Arthur's advice to be sound, but > Harry's quick dismissal of it seems like a cop-out (if it was indeed > meant to set our fears to rest). > -Alisha: who sincerely hopes we see the map playing a trick on us > later. I believe, that line was said in order to raise your suspicions about Tom Riddle's book. The map just got caught in the cross fire. -jmoses22002 From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jun 30 13:42:20 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:42:20 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131724 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmoses22002" wrote: > Alisha wrote: > > In CoS, Arthur has the memorable line, "Don't trust anything that > > can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain." > > When Harry first uses the map, he even remembers this advice. jmoses22002: > I believe, that line was said in order to raise your suspicions about > Tom Riddle's book. The map just got caught in the cross fire. Geoff: That cannot be accurate. Don't forget that Arthur Weasley made this comment at the /end/ of Chamber of Secrets - after we already have had our suspicions about Tom's diary confirmed. From adesahafford at wmconnect.com Thu Jun 30 13:44:49 2005 From: adesahafford at wmconnect.com (adesahafford at wmconnect.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:44:49 EDT Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! Message-ID: <7b.4843af46.2ff55151@wmconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131725 phoenixgod2000 wrote: > Instead all we get is Hermione talking about how Ginny changed. > It's clumsy writing. We get implausible stories about her taking > out her brothers brooms to practice alone. JKR knows how to lay foundations and generally writes her characters well. So I think she has written Ginny like this for a reason: We are to be as surprised by her change as Harry is. He hardly notices her in POA and GOF; when she's finally over her crush, she begins to interact with him in a normal way. He now notices her because they have normal conversations and Hermione has become closer to her, thus bringing more contact with Harry. Wow, he's thinking, she sure has changed. How'd *that* happen? I think the lack of info during Ginny's transformation/coming into her own in a family of boys is intentional to make the reader as shocked as Harry must be. Adesa From smilingator81 at aol.com Thu Jun 30 13:42:38 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:42:38 -0000 Subject: SHIPS: Jumping on the Bandwagon/I Hate Ginny Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131726 Chris: > Has anyone found it funny that Ginny got over her hero worship of > Harry now seems to want no romantic relationship with him > whatsoever? Ginny adored Harry for quite some time, and did not get > over this until after CoS. Once Harry saved her from certain death, > wouldn't those feelings have only been cemented in her permanently? > I'm not female (ladies out there, help me) but I would think that > if I adored a guy, and then he saves my life, I would only have > stronger feelings for him. smilingator: Okay, I am a female who has been in love before... and while I still hold a place in my heart for a certain man (he was my first and only love), I am very much over my feelings for him. I could only take so much rejection before I had to let go and move on with my life. I waited for years, but things just did not work out. Now, he never saved my life in the literal sense, but he did help me to learn about myself and for that I'll be forever grateful. Maybe Ginny's feelings for Harry did grow stronger right after he saved her. But again, Harry liked Cho for a couple of years and if he was not paying attention to Ginny, perhaps our red-headed friend's feelings went to other people. Chris: > Someone posted in the Ginny thread that Hermione and her had > become friends because they are in the dormitory away from the > boys, and they obviously talked to each other. Perhaps, they talked > about Harry, Hermione revealed her feelings, and this is what cooled > Ginny off of Harry. smilingator: I was actually the one that made that post :) While I do believe that Hermione and Ginny talked to each other in the girls' dormitory, I basically posted that to make the point that we have no idea what's going on in the girls' dormitory, or even in the boys' bedrooms other than the Griffyndor students in Harry's room. The romantic relationships between the characters are interesting to me... I hope Ron and Hermione do end up together (sorry!). Ron is obviously jealous of Krum and Hermione's friendship, but let's not forget Hermione's reactions regarding Ron and the part Veela student from Beauxbatons (her name escapes me right now). As far as for Harry, I like Luna (I am soooo glad that whole Cho thing is over with; Ms. Chang needs time to heal from Cedric). Then again, they are only 15 years old and we are trying to figure out who will marry whom? I am a teacher and while I do see relationships develop between my students often, very few of them actually make it to marital status. Just my thoughts... From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 14:11:16 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:11:16 -0000 Subject: Droobles Gum mystery solved! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131727 You heard it here first folks. Alice *is* sending a message to Neville with the gum wrappers. It's CHEW CHEW CHEW CHEW. Or CHOO CHOO CHOO CHOO. Yes, the answer to the mystery lies with the trolley lady on the Hogwarts Express. Neville only needs to ask her for Droobles, and she will reveal all. I'm sure this is news to all of you. It would be news to JKR too. Ginger, needing a moment of silliness in her life. From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Jun 30 14:11:41 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:11:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > I know it is not a popular idea in the U.S.; maybe there is still > hope for other countries. But IMO!! a child should always treat an > adult with respect. They do not have to like the person, they do > not have to suffer abuse, they do not have to like what the adult > does, but they do not have the right to act like a little snot!! > And that is how I interpret the phrase *he must deserve my respect, > before I give it*. This type of respect is subjective. One person > respects you and someone else doesn't. So one can treat you like > Sh..t and the other bows at your feet. I think NOT. > > Sorry if this is a bit curt. It is one of my pet peeves against the > younger generation. > > Tonks_op Well, complaining about the younger generation is a time-honored tradition, is it not? :-) I used to hate it when my parents did that. But now that I've gotten old and fat and bald and my joints hurt and my stomach can't tolerate sweets any more I indulge in it just as often as they did. Unfortunately, when I force myself to be honest I'm not at all sure most of what I have to say makes any more sense than the type of thing they used to come up with, all those years ago. Much of it is that the world has just moved on and one is getting older and doesn't fit in with a lot of things anymore. And the privileges one used to look forward to enjoying are now a thing of the past. Or, as a dear friend once said, "just when I got old enough to expect deference, deference went out of fashion!" Yes, people probably were more polite at one time than they are now. Yes, it would be very nice if there was a more widespread code of conduct involving a set of coded gestures of respect, coupled to a real sense of responsibility among those in power in a given situation. It would even be very healthy, were such a thing present in reality. But it isn't, and it really never has been. Those in power insist on their privileges and rarely have felt the sense of obligation and responsibility that theoretically go with them. The codes of deference and respect have always become a way for the powerful to keep their foot on the throat of those below them. Priests, aristocrats, teachers, politicians, slave owners, and members of upper classes in general have screamed "RESPECT" and "SOCIAL ORDER" and "CIVILIZED SOCIETY" for centuries as an excuse to justify their own tyranny. In my youth, it was true that people were more polite and respectful. And those to whom respect was accorded almost universally abused their position right, left, and center. So it would be nice if true mutual respect undergird by a sense of responsibility and commitment among the powerful existed. But it doesn't, and it never really has. The shedding of the more hypocritical codes of respect is a phenomenon that has been going on for centuries (it may have started after the American revolution when apprentices began to refuse to call their employer's "Master," and "Mistress" -- and oh did the employers complain about the lack of respect, being called a mere "sir"!). It does make society cruder and more difficult and less -- aesthetically pleasing. But it is also in the main an incredibly healthy trend. When I young person refuses to accord me respect, I do get very angry. But when it passes and I reflect on it, I am almost always forced to admit that they are probably in the right -- because I have not earned the respect I want to demand. Lupinlore From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 14:43:32 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Holds you in great esteem" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050630144333.97060.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131729 --- lupinlore wrote: > Now, presumably Fortescue (as we'll call him) knows this because > he's > overheard DD say as much -- we don't have any evidence for > paintings > having telepathic powers. But, here's the interesting part: Who > has > Dumbledore said it TO? What kind of conversations has Fortescue > overheard or been a part of? To whom has DD expressed these > opinions? McGonagall? Snape? Certainly the painting seemed to > imply this was more than a one-time phenomenon, and also that it > had > been fairly recent (although perhaps that is speculating too much). I assume that Dumbledore talks to the paintings regularly and that one of the ways he's on top of things in the castle is his "spies on the wall" all over the school. If the paintings keep a particular eye on Harry, then it's natural that there's discussion about Harry with the paintings giving their opinions. Magda __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 14:45:31 2005 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:45:31 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131730 phoenixgod2000" wrote: > The end of the book [Order] was another let down when it came to Ginny. We > here about how great her hexes are, how she's so powerful despite > being tiny, and she throws a temper tantrum so she can go to the > department of mysteries, and what happens? She's practically the > first one down, the first one if I'm not mistaken. Throughout OOTP > Ginny is all talk and no payoff. But she's so in your face with her > attitude that it makes her character deeply annoying. At least to me. Meri here. I would have to disagree that Ginny was the first one down at the DoM: That would be Hermione, as far as we know, who was knocked out by one of the DE's curses. Ginny twisted or broke her ankle in the planet room, where Ron went all funny, too. And I also disagree that she threw "a temper tantrum" to go with them. She just didn't want to be left out nor did she want to be treated like a baby, something she has been struggling against for the entire novel (sort of similar to Harry's own struggle to be treated like an adult earlier in the book) and even earlier that that IIRC: I believe that in GoF there was a time when HRH were trying to discuss Sirius and Ron told Ginny to, "go away," to which she reacted a bit hufflily. And remeber, neither Neville nor Luna nor Hermione reacted well to Harry's wanting to go on with only Ron and have the others catch up. But on the subject of Ginny's character development, I have to say that I was neither disappoineted nor unpleasantly surprised. Her progression has been slow, and admittedly mostly offscreen as it were, but her progression has been there. In fact we should have probably figured that she had a forceful personality, it is there in her first scene in SS, on the train platform when she unabashedly asks if she can go see Harry while he's on the train and when she begs to be let to go to Hogwarts early: she doesn't want to be left behind. Sound familiar? Ginny is to me an example of how people can change drastically during their teenaged years, sometimes with little or no corroborating experience or evidence. RL example time: my youngest brother started off middle school painfully shy, few friends, little social life and so nervous about school that he would often fake illness not to go. But now he's near fourteen (Ginny's OOTP age) and is heading to high school, he runs track and plays basketball on school teams, is out with a large group of friends quite often and actually speaks to other members of the family besides our parents. He changed, he grew up, just like Ginny did. Sometimes it just happens. It isn't a foult of the storytelling, just a quirk of the character. And remeber, in most cases JKR does things for a reason (Mark Evans fiasco aside), so maybe we should hold in judgement till all is said and done. And I don't think it is wrong that Ginny and Hermione should have become good friends, the foundation for that was laid back in PoA when the pair of them started spending time together with Mrs. Weasley during their time in Diagon Alley. Why shouldn't Hermione have a bestest girlfriend? She deserves one. Anyway, I like Ginny. I think she's a fascinating character that has spunk, attitude, doesn't take no for an answer and has managed to survive mostly emotionally intact after being possessed by LV and growing up with six older brothers, something that couldn't have been easy. No, I take that back: I *love* Ginny, in much the same way I love Hermione (and to some extent Luna and Professor McGonagall). The pair of them are so different from the usual archetypes of fantasy heroines that I really can't help appreciate them (for example, Susan and Lucy Pevensie from the Narnia books just want to make me vomit or poke my eyes out). I was admittedly surprised to see Ginny so prominent in book five, albeit pleasantly so, because in truth I think I should have seen it coming. So that's all I have to say about that. Meri - thinking that the real personality change we should be debating is Seamus Finnegan, who went from being the charming Gryffindor fourth banana to a raging dork-wad... From jeterluver2 at aol.com Thu Jun 30 14:36:30 2005 From: jeterluver2 at aol.com (Marissa) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:36:30 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131731 > jmoses22002: > > I believe, that line was said in order to raise your suspicions about > > Tom Riddle's book. The map just got caught in the cross fire. > > Geoff: > That cannot be accurate. Don't forget that Arthur Weasley made this > comment at the /end/ of Chamber of Secrets - after we already have had > our suspicions about Tom's diary confirmed. Marissa: I think what Arthur said is similar to the "Don't take candy from strangers" line that we use with children. You shouldn't trust people or things that you don't know because they can be dangerous. Harry recieved the map from Fred and George, two people he felt he could trust, and since they had been using it for years assumed it was okay. Arthur was just reprimanding Ginny with a common saying that wizards use. It would seem to me that the map can be trusted because we later learned who created it and they aren't dark wizards. From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 30 14:52:22 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:52:22 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131732 > Alisha: > In CoS, Arthur has the memorable line, "Don't trust anything that > can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain." > When Harry first uses the map, he even remembers this advice. > > My question is, will JKR ever show us why the map shouldn't be > trusted? It seems like she meant Arthur's advice to be sound, but > Harry's quick dismissal of it seems like a cop-out (if it was indeed > meant to set our fears to rest). It's almost like JKR said, "Oh, > crap! I've set this precedent for dealing with magical objects, but > I really like this one, and I don't want my readers to be suspicious > of it. What can I do? I know, I'll just have Harry remember the > advice and then decide it's worth the risk. Then no one will worry." > > jmoses22002: > I believe, that line was said in order to raise your suspicions about > Tom Riddle's book. The map just got caught in the crossfire. > > Geoff: > That cannot be accurate. Don't forget that Arthur Weasley made this > comment at the /end/ of Chamber of Secrets - after we already have > had our suspicions about Tom's diary confirmed. JLV: Absolutely Geoff. And the map wasn't actually introduced `til PoA anyway. Alisha, the way I see it, Harry thinking about Arthur's comment is a cunning red-herring clue. In POA, it seems JKR wants us to like Lupin initially (like Harry does), but drops a number of hints that could be interpreted as him being ESE. When he turns up at the shrieking shack, it seems JKR wants us to think `Noo! He was bad all along! He let Black in!' ? the same way Harry does. The clues, including: - Snape's suspicion - the map (including Harry's though about Arthur's comment and Snape's and Lupin's reactions to it when Snape finds it) - hints about the whole werewolf thing lead us (and the Trio) to conclude that we should have seen it all along ? Lupin being evil is obvious! Harry, Ron and Hermione discuss this evidence in detail in the shrieking shack. I thought it was a great `aha!' moment and it worked because ESE!Lupin fits the evidence. I don't think for a moment JKR thought, "Oh, crap! I've set this precedent for dealing with magical objects, but I really like this one, and I don't want my readers to be suspicious of it. What can I do? I know, I'll just have Harry remember the advice and then decide it's worth the risk. Then no one will worry." Because that frankly wouldn't work. It would only make us *more* suspicious of the map, and think Harry a fool for not heeding the advice when it is finally revealed that the-Lupin-who-we-now-think-is-evil says he helped write it. (`Noo! Stupid Harry! You should have known!') When it turns out that Lupin is NOT evil (I'm not having a ESE!Lupin debate here but I think Lupin *is* on the good side), and Black is NOT evil, we are gradually persuaded (like the Trio) that the `evidence' is all bunk. Black gives his side of the story and we have another (bigger) `aha!' moment and ? again ? it works because it fits the evidence. And you think `Ooh, you are tricksy JKR ? just when I was convinced, you showed me I was fooled again!'. I love twists in the tale and red herrings. (*spoiler* I think The Usual Suspects is a wonderful film ? there is a double twist there.) This double-bluff on JKR's part is one of the reasons why PoA is my favourite Harry book (the other being whole time-travel thing which is brilliant because it adheres to the rule that you can't change the past ? none of this `Back to the Future' nonsense). JMO, JLV xx From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Jun 30 15:10:20 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:10:20 -0000 Subject: Changing the WW (was Snape's abuse ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131733 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Chris labmystc wrote: > "And Harry and the other students have the right to not like it, and > to do something about it according to human standards." > > Del replies: > Obviously, WW human standards allow for what Snape does. So Harry and > the others won't get anywhere if they try to do something based on > those standards. What they need to do is RAISE those standards, so > that things like Snape's teaching methods and purebloodism become > morally and legally unacceptable. > Well, I don't want to get into an argument about whether human rights are inherent or conventional. Coming as I do from a country founded on the philosophical principle that they are in fact and obviously inherent, I have strong opinions on that one. However, it seems clear that as a practical matter Del is quite correct, the exercise of human rights cannot be furthered in the WW without social change. Which is what I sense Del would like to see -- a general change in the beliefs of the WW such that many practices -- purebloodism, Snape's attitudes, house-elf slavery, etc. are not only no longer extant but simply not acceptable on a moral level. But is this the way JKR is going? I don't think anyone would argue seriously that this ISN'T the way the WW needs to go, but is this something JKR is doing? In a way clearly yes. The SPEW subplot is obviously related to that. Also the Sorting Hat's weary suspicion of the House System in OOTP can be taken us a sign. But what evidence do we have that real change is possible in the WW within the context of the story (as opposed to something we see at the very end in a "fifty years later" epilogue where she says something like "Hermione Granger was one of the greatest Headmistresses in Hogwarts History, and of course it goes without saying that Severus Snape would never be allowed to teach at the modern Hogwarts")? I would say we don't have very much. The corruption within the Wizarding government is so deep and pervasive that even Dumbledore finds it impossible to preserve his own position when he falls out of political favor, much less work for any significant change. Malfoy and other DEs who many responsible citizens of the Wizarding World know very well are supporters of Voldemort and guilty of murder and other serious crimes walk free and the "good" people seem unable to do a thing about it. Even the Weasleys accept house elf-enslavement, contempt of muggles (maybe not Arthur, but Molly) and cruel degradation of squibs (see the twins' attitude) as legitimate parts of their social order. And one can argue that the worst attitudes of the Wizarding Social Order are permanently enshrined and honored at Hogwarts in the form of Slytherin House. In a lot of ways the wizarding world seems analogous to the U.S. on the brink of the Civil War. Although the war brought about many sweeping changes, it hardly eliminated many of the roots of the problems that caused the war to start with. In order to see the Wizarding World move to an ideal where purebloodism, Snape, etc. aren't tolerated, they would have to move through a set of developments that in the real world U.S took more than a hundred years (remembering that given wizarding lifespans this would be more like two hundred in the WW to get an equivalent number of generations), and in some ways aren't done yet. How could we see some of this play out? To use the Civil War analogy, one thing that becomes obvious when studying that era is the "WAR CHANGES EVERYTHING." The vast majority of the northern population could have cared less about slavery, for instance, when the war started. They very much cared about it by the time it was over. I think the effects of the war with Voldemort would be the only realistic catalyst for change in the WW. Even Dumbledore, after all, seems to accept the corruption of his society as something he cannot change (witness his toleration of Snape). Perhaps the war will force the WW to make new alliances and shift its attitudes in order to survive. Perhaps the "anti-werewolf legislation" for instance, will become a point of contention, and the status of the House Elves be a major point. But if that is the case, it seems awfully late in the day for JKR to get into all that. Granted, she has laid some of the groundwork. But in the last two books she has to continue Harry's saga, bring Ron and Hermione and Ginny and Neville along as well, answer the big riddles that have been hovering about various things, finish off Voldemort, bring Snape's arc to a close, deal with the Malfoys, show us the fallout of Sirius' death, and on and on and on. To add a major saga of social change on top of that would be a staggering task, particularly since the social change hasn't even BEGUN. If the changes had started way back about the second book, something might be worked out. But to start a social revolution and bring it along in the last two books on top of everything else? To tell the truth, I'm baffled by JKR's intentions in this regard. I agree with Del that change would be a powerful storyline, but it seems a hard row to hoe in the last two books. Which is why I hold out for more personal forms of justice and retribution. Part of it may be a cultural thing. The Potter books are set in the tradition of the British public school story. There is no equivalent to that in the American literary tradition. I suppose the Horatio Alger stories are similar in some ways, but they are much more positive and lighter in tone than the Potter saga has turned out to be. To an American audience, portrayal of a world like the WW often is a signal that social change (or at least institutional change) will be a major theme of the story. I don't know if that is the same in other countries. Perhaps to JKR the social change theme doesn't seem as obviously inherent in the setting. And maybe I'm just full of it. In any case, what do other people think? Is change of WW society a goal of JKR's? If so, how is this going to play out? Is it something we are going to actually see? Will purebloodism still be acceptable by the last page? Will someone like Snape still be able to teach at Hogwarts by the last page? Will the house elves still be in bondage on the last page? Will Slytherin House still be in existance on the last page? Lupinlore From imontero at iname.com Thu Jun 30 14:59:15 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:59:15 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131734 Laura said: > My response to this is: SHOW ME. This isn't really a challenge to you though -- it's a > challenge to JKR. To me, it seemed like Ginny's "steady" growth rather suddenly exploded > onto the scene in OotP. > > *shrugs* But then, to be fair, I never did like her. > Luna: I have to step here on behalf of Ginny and Jo. Jo did leave clues regarding Ginny's personality and strength of character. In COS Ron said she never shuts up. Then we see how she fiercely comes in defense of Harry at the bookstore (scene with Drako). By that time, Ginny was already receptive enough to realize that Harry didn't want all that fame (see, she already knew he wanted to be a quiet hero). Then we have her dealing a full year with proto-Voldy possessions. She got rid of the diary by throwing it in a sink; she broke into Harry's room to steal the diary, both instances shows Ginny's nerve. Finally, she didn't allow Ron to hug her or comfort her after the COS scene (see parallel with her not wanting help from Luna in the DOM). I was impressed by Ginny's strength in COS. She was putting up a great fight against Riddle. Of course, at the end Riddle won the battle, after all, he was a far more powerful wizard As DD said, older and more powerful wizards have fallen on Voldemort traps. In GOF, Jo shows us other side of Ginny's character. She is loyal and she stands by her decisions and compromises. She doesn't accept going to the ball with Harry because she had already accepted going with Neville, she kept Hermione's secret regarding her date. By the end of GOF, I was already wondering when Jo was going to show us a full version of Ginny and was pleased that she did it in OOTP. So, after all the clues she has been giving us, it shouldn't been a big surprise Ginny character evolution in OOTP. I know some people, for one reason or another, just don't like her character But I think it is unfair to say that Jo didn't give clues regarding Ginny ? true self ? Jo did give us plenty of them From hambtty at triad.rr.com Thu Jun 30 15:52:36 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:52:36 -0000 Subject: Droobles Gum mystery solved! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > You heard it here first folks. > > Alice *is* sending a message to Neville with the gum wrappers. It's > CHEW CHEW CHEW CHEW. > > Or CHOO CHOO CHOO CHOO. > > Yes, the answer to the mystery lies with the trolley lady on the > Hogwarts Express. > > Neville only needs to ask her for Droobles, and she will reveal all. > > I'm sure this is news to all of you. It would be news to JKR too. > > Ginger, needing a moment of silliness in her life. BG writes: Stranger things have happened!! I really do think that Alice is trying to tell Neville something though - and he just isn't getting it. BUT he is saving the wrappers and when Hermione starts thinking about the prophecy and remembers the wrapper she saw Alice give Neville, she'll start putting it together for the boys. Her arithmacy & ancient runes studies will definitely come in handy in Book 6. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jun 30 16:05:20 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:05:20 -0000 Subject: Changing the WW (was Snape's abuse ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131736 Lupinlore: > I think the effects of the war with Voldemort would be the only > realistic catalyst for change in the WW. Even Dumbledore, after > all, seems to accept the corruption of his society as something he > cannot change (witness his toleration of Snape). Perhaps the war > will force the WW to make new alliances and shift its attitudes in > order to survive. Perhaps the "anti-werewolf legislation" for > instance, will become a point of contention, and the status of the > House Elves be a major point. Jen: Dumbledore did not choose to go the route of entering the formal political structure to pursue social change. But he is the strongest individual advocate for change in the WW through his post as headmaster. No one else holds the power he does to shape the WW of the future. The largest population of House Elves in Britain employed safely at Hogwarts? Check. The largest herd of centaurs safely ensconced in the Forbidden Forest? Check. Rare beasts such as the unicorns find safety at Hogwarts. Unemployable members of the wizarding world find opportunity. And most important of all, ALL witches and wizards are welcome at Hogwarts regardless of heritage. Dumbledore does not accept the 'corruption of his society as something he cannot change,' it's just that his methods are gradual rather than apocalyptic in nature. Lupinlore: > Part of it may be a cultural thing. The Potter books are set in > the tradition of the British public school story. There is no > equivalent to that in the American literary tradition. I suppose > the Horatio Alger stories are similar in some ways, but they are > much more positive and lighter in tone than the Potter saga has > turned out to be. To an American audience, portrayal of a world > like the WW often is a signal that social change (or at least > institutional change) will be a major theme of the story. I don't > know if that is the same in other countries. Perhaps to JKR the > social change theme doesn't seem as obviously inherent in the > setting. And maybe I'm just full of it. Jen: Social change as a possible major theme didn't strike me until reading MAGIC DISHWASHER on this site. I certainly didn't read the first four books as anything other than the Hero's journey mythology set in a unique environment. But in a very subtle way JKR is advocating the most crucial change of all---inside each person is the capacity to choose good over evil, right over easy. This is the basis for true social change, much more than a forced political or legal change within a cultural system. Granted, sometimes the forced change has to come before individual change evolves, but starting anywhere in the system can have a significant effect. From imontero at iname.com Thu Jun 30 16:25:52 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:25:52 -0000 Subject: SHIPS: Jumping on the Bandwagon/I Hate Ginny Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131737 Chris: > > Someone posted in the Ginny thread that Hermione and her had > > become friends because they are in the dormitory away from the > > boys, and they obviously talked to each other. Perhaps, they talked > > about Harry, Hermione revealed her feelings, and this is what cooled > > Ginny off of Harry. snip Luna: This is a quote from the online chat transcript, Scholastic.com, 3 February 2000: Q:Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley? JO: In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time for him to change his mind. ;-) (emoticon was placed there by Jo herself!) I think that the probabilities for Harry changing his mind regarding Ginny are great, especially after OOP. I find highly suspicious the stress Jo was making on Ginny's love life in OOP. We also see Ginny's ex' get together with Harry's ex'. We see her taking the snitch right under Cho's nose and the final scene on the train. I don't know, it seems to me Jo is showing us the direction Ginny is taking with respect to Harry. If it happens, it won't be a big surprise to me and, after what I saw in the HBP prediction contest, a lot of people see it coming too. We can argue that he will change his mind with respect to Hermione. The problem I have with it is that I don't see any big change of attitude from Harry with respect to Hermione. Hermione goes about him more like a big sister than a girlfriend Well, this is just my perception. But we also have Jo's quotes that tell us that seem to back up my perception: 1. Harry and Hermione are platonic. 2. Ron and Hermione do have something going on. 3. Ron and Hermione have snogging potential (as opposed to Harry and Hermione having none) Luna could be a good candidate too, but somehow I don't think that's the road Jo is taking From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Jun 30 17:06:37 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:06:37 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: <7b.4843af46.2ff55151@wmconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, adesahafford at w... wrote: > JKR knows how to lay foundations and generally writes her characters well. So I think she has written Ginny like this for a reason: We are to be as surprised by her change as Harry is. He hardly notices her in POA and GOF; when she's finally over her crush, she begins to interact with him in a normal way. He now notices her because they have normal conversations and Hermione has become closer to her, thus bringing more contact with Harry. Wow, he's thinking, she sure has changed. How'd *that* happen? I think the lack of info during Ginny's transformation/coming into her own in a family of boys is intentional > to make the reader as shocked as Harry must be. > > Adesa Hickengruendler: I normally didn't want to reply to that topic anymore before book 6 is released, because I think then we'll know a lot more about Ginny's role in the saga, and could judge it a bit better. (Right now, I'm very unhappy with the way Ginny developed, and in contrast to for example Lupinlore, Ginny is the only character whose development I really do not like at all). However, I do want to say something about your point. I think you have a very good one, and I would agree with you, if Harry at least had shown some reaction. If Ginny's development should be a shock for Harry and the readers, than Harry should act shocked, or at least surprised. But he didn't. All he stated was, that she now talks more, after Hermione told him, that she's with Michael Corner. That's not much. Also, I think the argument, that it is told from Harry's point of view can only take us so far. I will admit that it is harder to write a character who has/had a crush on Harry, since she acts unusually around him. Imagine how Harry would seem, if book 4 were told from Cho's point of view. However, it was JKR's decision, to tell us the story from Harry's point of view. This has many advantages, but I think in Ginny's case it was a disadvantage, because it made her development in book 5 to sudden. And even with the Harry lense, there were some chances, to add some information about Ginny's "real" character in the earlier books. And Ron's statement that she never shut up, just didn't do it for me. Because it tells us nothing about Ginny except that she's chatty (which she really wasn't even all that much, in OotP). My favourite Ginny moment was the pre Yule Ball scene in GoF. There I saw a girl with a strong character and an interesting personality, who still resembled Ginny from book 2 and 3. In book 4 generally she seemed to come into her own, IMO. She still seemed a bit shy, but nonetheless was very fun and likeable. I frankly did not see this in book 5. We were just given to much informations at once. It was as if Jo (maybe influenced by the partly very harsh crticism she got for some of her female characters, and Ginny in particular?) made a list with some abilities that define a "cool" character, and than in the course of book 5 we were told that Ginny has them all. Add to this that inspite of this we never saw her doing anything interesting, and I became quite annoyed with her character as well. IMO, her "development" in OotP was a step backwards, from what promised to be a likeable and interesting individual in GoF to a stereotype of the cool and sporty girl in OotP. Hickengruendler, who again wrote much more about this topic, than he really wanted From jjpandy at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 17:12:01 2005 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (JJ Pandy) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:12:01 -0000 Subject: We Like Ginny! (was Re: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131739 Thank you "lunamko3" (message # 131734) and "meriaugust" (message # 131730) for coming to Ginny's defense. I was rather surprised at some of the strong negativity expressed in the other emails. I cheered when Ginny became a bigger charater in OOTP, much better than introducing another new, never-before-seen character like Luna, although Luna has her place in the story. I, too, saw Ginny's involvement increase through the books as her character grew up and found her niche at school where she just wasn't "mollycoddled" as the baby and only girl of the family. Hopefully, after her involvement in the DA and the battle at the end of OOTP, the rest of Ginny's family will recognize that "little Ginny" has grown up! Ginny has her own voice, makes her own decisions, and has her own personality. I can't wait to see the role she plays in HBP! JJ :) From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 17:13:13 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:13:13 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > > Finwitch: > > To me this idea is horror, because there are adults who seriously mistreat and even abuse children - and I believe that such are more than ready to take full advantage of this sort of 'showing respect' to adults to make the children co-operate with them. (Snip) > Then Chris said: > I have to jump in this argument just one more time. (snip) But I don't think that is what Tonks was referring to. I think she means for kids to defer to adults in a more social setting: classrooms, on the street, in a restaurant, things like that. Tonks: Well I was hoping that this discussion would die, but one finial attempt to explain ( or maybe have the last word. Ha!! dream on. ;-)) There are two things here and we are arguing at each other. I am talking about behavior in, as Chris says, a public setting such as a classroom. And I think that Chris began this discussion by talking about feelings. Others are talking about private situations in which a child should not obey and run away. The topic that we started with was Snape. Snape is in a classroom setting, which is a public place. Feeling respect for someone is one thing and I am not talking about that. I am talking about how one behaves toward another. I am not talking about child molesters, etc. I am sure it is difficult to teach a child the difference between been polite to an adult and going with a stranger or with your parish priest for that matter. I am talking about ONE thing here, and one thing only. Behavior in a classroom. Never mind Snape's behavior. I am responding to the concept that "if I don't like my teacher or *feel* respect for them that I do not have to treat them well". That is what I am talking about and that alone. Adults like Snape do not have a monopoly on bad behavior. Bratty kids can do the same things to adults that are nice, kind people who are there to help them. This is what I am talking about. Turn the situation around. If the nasty person is the kid and the nice person is the teacher. What I think some people are saying is that it is OK for a kid to be a smart mouth to a teacher like Snape. But the same people will argue that it is not OK for a teacher to be a smart mouth back to a kid who acts like Snape. There is a double standard here. Ya, you will say that the adult has to behave and the child doesn't because they are a child. Well, hogs-swallow! A child past a certain age SHOULD treat their elders with respect. If you don't like the word respect, then say polite behavior instead. Just because the adult says things that you don't like or is snarky doesn't mean that it is OK to do likewise. When you teach a child that respect depends on the *person* you are laying groundwork for bad behavior in the classroom. I have seen kids that I think would have profited by someone like Umbridge. And Umbridge they deserved!!! (thinking of a situation from a couple of years ago which still causes strong emotions.) I feel really strongly about this because as a mental health professional I have been on the receiving end of crap from disrespectful teenagers in a group. It is one thing to be in a one to one situation such as DD and Harry when Harry was angry and tearing apart DD's office. That is OK, I don't have a problem with that. I am talking about behavior in a group situation with one person as the authority figure and the group is there for a task. According to the concept of *a person has to earn my respect before I treat them with any*, the only person who could control a group of kids like that would be someone like Snape or worse. A decent NICE person would be eaten alive. In a group situation like a classroom the kids are there for a purpose. A teacher should not have to spend a lot of time on *maintenance* issues. They are all there for a task. It takes away from the task at hand when a teacher has to first *earn their respect*. Under the old school of thought, you are there to learn.. Shut up, sit down and listen. Treat your teacher with respect. It doesn't matter *who* the teacher is. They are the person in authority and you treat them with respect (polite behavior), because you are the student and they are the teacher. This is social conditioning, the type that the older generation had and why, even today, the older generation are more respectful of others in general. I see nothing wrong with this system. And from what I hear here about U.S. schools and what I see in the behavior of young people today, a little return to the old ways would be a damn good thing!! Now I am going to shut up on this subject and move on, before I start swearing a blue streak. Tonks_op. From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 17:26:15 2005 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:26:15 -0000 Subject: SHIPS: Jumping on the Bandwagon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131741 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > IMO, I think JKR is developing a little bit of a love triangle > with the trio that will eventually lead to disaster. JKR seems to > think (according to her FAQ on the website) that we should have > figured out the romance by now. Here's what I think it is: Ron likes > Hermione, as evidenced by his jealousy over her and Krum's > relationship. Hermione likes Harry because of his personality and his > awesome acumen as a wizard. Harry doesn't even notice Hermione as a > potential girlfriend. I think Ron will declare his love for Hermione, > Hermione will respond that she likes Harry, Harry will be lost as > usual, then the conflict between all three will erupt. > This is just my opinion. However, the theory of the love traingle > conflict could lead to the theme that friendship trumps all, and > conflict will be resolved. JMHO. Sarah: Finally, someone else who believes that JKR is setting up a love triangle! It's in the books, and it's in her interviews. She's never shot down either potential relationship, but she's shot down other ones as being ridiculous. She's playing with all the relationship debators. We have enough clues about if Harry and Hermione will end up together? We have clues in GoF if Hermione likes Ron? And feelings between the three of them were foreshadowed in the movie of CoS? She's setting up a triangle, big time. In my opinion, Harry's developed more-than-friendship feelings towards Hermione throughout OotP, but doesn't recognize them for what they are. And Hermione's in his "off limits" category, since he does seem do believe that Hermione likes Krum and that Ron likes Heormione. Just my opinion. I can't wait until HBP comes out! From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 17:13:03 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map + Invisibility Cloak = Disaster (once DD Gone) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050630171303.42100.qmail@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131742 --- tinglinger: > So I wonder if the MM CAN willfully mislead others - > or > more properly, not be concerned with the > consequences of > WHERE others are led by it's use.... Marozi: This has already come up, though. In POA Lupin tells Harry that the map would encourage him to endanger himself by sneaking out- not from malice, but simply as a manifestation of the young Marauders' boyish high spirits. The map obviously does have an "agenda" of its own (being "up to no good") and has been already identified as potentially dangerous and not-to-be-trusted, without being evil like Riddle's diary. I don't expect the issue to come up again, though, since I think Harry has more or less outgrown the "sneaking out for the thrill of it" phase, and I don't think the map holds any darker influence than that. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 17:36:28 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:36:28 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? Common Law Ref. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131743 > > bboyminn: > > I'm sure I posted this before, but I haven't been able to track down > the link, so here it is again - English Common Law of Inheritance - > > "Addressing the Duke and Inheriting his Loot" > http://it.uwp.edu/lansdowne/als.html > a_svirn: You did indeed post it before. However, it is only a site, not a legal handbook. (It also worth mentioning that the information the site in question imparts concerns the regency period ? that is more than a hundred years after the Statute of Secrecy). Besides, there is great difference between common law, entails, patents etc. Entails, for instance, have nothing to do whatsoever with common law; you yourself quote that they carry the "force of civil law" which is quite another cup of tea. Another site (encyclopedia.com says that, "The subsequent development of the entail reflects a continuing struggle between the effort to preserve large estates and the need for free alienation". The struggle resulted in number of legal procedures that enable entail-holders to break an entail and alienate the property. For example on http://www.redrice.com/listowel/CHAP3.html: "This had been made possible, by an agreement between my father and grandfather while I was still a child, to break the entail on the family property, whereby the family fortune had passed for several generations, undivided, since the time of the first Richard Hare, the merchant from Cork, with the family honours passing from father to eldest son. The entail was broken by my father and grandfather to benefit the family by reducing tax on my father's death". Moreover, if by "strict guidelines" that rule "Black estate" you mean entail, with the death of Sirius they are no longer applied: for instance on http://www.genfiles.com/legal/entail.htm: "Apart from taking legal action to break an entail (discussed below), or a conditional conveyance whose condition was not met, the land would remain in fee tail until the original recipient had no living issue. It's worth mentioning that in this context "dies without issue" has a counterintuitive meaning. If a man dies with living children, it would seem that he died leaving issue. However, in this context he is said to have died without issue when his last living descendant dies (perhaps several generations after his own death). At that moment, the land reverts, in fee simple, to the original conveyor. Since the original conveyor was certainly dead, his own heir as defined in the original conveyance (or by law otherwise) takes possession". This means in effect, that with the last Black dead, the ownership of the estate is no longer defined by the original "civil contract" or entail and must be established by whatever laws that are customary in the WW. As for widows and younger children rights see for instance: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pointe/3829/amite_thesis_intro.htm l "Common law, the basis of both English and American law, (1) was the result of centuries of amalgamation and precedent. Most of the laws relating to property were made by men who, having achieved their wealth, were interested in maintaining their investments." "If the husband predeceased the wife, anything she might later bequeath came only from that portion that her husband had willed her. While property laws dating to the middle ages stipulated that a widow and her children had rights to their share of the husband's personal property, by the mid-fourteenth century it became possible for a man to leave nothing at all to his children or widow-- even property which she had brought into the marriage. The old rule of "reasonable parts" that automatically gave the widow one-third and the children two-thirds of an estate applied only when the husband died intestate. (3)" From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 17:49:59 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:49:59 -0000 Subject: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131744 Officially, Peter. He admits that he betrayed Lily and James in PoA. (Well, he admits *why* he did it and *that* he was a spy, even if he never admits the actual betrayl.) (PoA, UStPB, p373-5) Sirius and Lupin suspected each other. So why is this on JKR's website? (Extra Stuff, opening chapters of PS): "Other drafts included a character by the name of 'Pyrites', whose name means 'fool's gold'. He was a servant of Voldemort's and was meeting Sirius in front of the Potters' house. Pyrites, too, had to be discarded . . ." Why was a servent of LV *meeting* *Sirius* in front of J&L's house? Is it possible that this is a Flint, or at least an artifact from an earlier draft in which SB was the actual spy? Or is a slip? I guess we'll find out in a couple weeks, maybe, but what do you guys think? TK -- TigerPatronus From lhuntley at fandm.edu Thu Jun 30 17:53:10 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:53:10 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131745 Luna: > I have to step here on behalf of Ginny and Jo. Jo did leave clues > regarding Ginny's personality and strength of character. > In COS Ron said she never shuts up. I agree with Phoenixgod and Hickengruendler -- this is not enough. It's not even really that indicative of the personality she develops in OotP, anyway. All it says is that she talks a lot, which she never really did. Luna: > Then we see how she fiercely > comes in defense of Harry at the bookstore (scene with Drako). By > that time, Ginny was already receptive enough to realize that Harry > didn't want all that fame (see, she already knew he wanted to be a > quiet hero). That wasn't really what I meant by "quiet hero". I meant someone who has a lot of inner strength and bravery, but is never really given credit for it because they never do anything "big" and/or they're personality is not compelling to others. Basically, Neville is, in many ways, as stoic and brave as Harry, but he'll never be a Hero in the same way, IMO. Hermione, to me, is another "quiet hero", because of her willingness to do the right thing over the opinions of her peers. Now, she's not as good an example of what I am trying to get across as Neville, but I think we can both agree she is not "quiet" in the traditional sense. ^_~ As for Ginny, of course she defends him -- he's her idol! I thought her defense of Harry in CoS was a bit ironic, really, because although she is smart enough to see that Harry is uncomfortable on a pedestal, she can't seem to take him off of it. Luna: > So, after all the clues she has been giving us, it shouldn't been a > big surprise Ginny character evolution in OOTP. > I know some people, for one reason or another, just don't like her > character But I think it is unfair to say that Jo didn't give > clues regarding Ginny ? true self ? Jo did give us plenty > of them Meri: > But on the subject of Ginny's character development, I have to say > that I was neither disappoineted nor unpleasantly surprised. Her > progression has been slow, and admittedly mostly offscreen as it > were, but her progression has been there. In fact we should have > probably figured that she had a forceful personality [. . .] The thing is, before OotP came out, there were very, very few people (at least on this list) who suspected that Ginny was actually KickAss!Girl. In fact, most Ginny defenders and Harry/Ginny SHIPpers praised Ginny for *not* challenging Harry and being contentious with him. They argued that Hermione was too quick to point out when Harry was wrong. They said he needed his life-mate to be someone who wouldn't argue with him all the time and who would quietly support and respect him (with dignity, of course) no matter what. I may not have agreed with them at the time, but I certainly couldn't argue that Ginny didn't fill this role more easily than Hermione. In OotP, however, Ginny made Hermione look like Miss Restraint when it came to telling Harry off. IMO, this is just one example of the way in which JKR did a bad job of defining Ginny's personality for the readership. I guess I just don't buy the argument about Harry's POV. JKR did a good job of developing Neville, for instance, even though he never got much attention from Harry. There are ways around the POV problem, and -- as I have said before -- JKR usually pulls them off brilliantly. I just think she failed with Ginny. Laura From maliksthong at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 18:24:28 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:24:28 -0000 Subject: Ogg's tomb?? / Re: Lifespans?... Molly and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: > --- Tonks: > > Hum.. reading this thread has led me down another path. Back to the > cemetery on the Hogwarts grounds. And maybe we don't have to dig > under Ugg's grave, but Ogg's. The Droobles wrappers again, folks. > It all comes back to gum-wrappers. > > BG writes: > I too think the gum-wrappers are most important. Alice is trying to > tell Neville something - he doesn't pick up on things the way Harry > does nor does he have Ron and Hermione at his side. Once Hermione has > time to think about the prophecy (and Neville's possible link to it), I > think she'll remember the gum-wrappers Alice gave to Neville and the > comment made by his gran that Alice has given him enough to paper a > room. I think Alice's love for her son is so strong that she is trying > to warn him as best she can. Maybe she is circling certain letters and > when Hermione gets all the wrappers Neville has saved, she will help > the others to decipher the code. Her knowledge of arithmacy and > ancient runes will come into play here - those subjects have been > mentioned far too many times to ignore. Chys: That was what I had suggested in the first place, what if it's some kind of code she's trying to get across to Neville, since no one else is listening? So is there something hidden in Ogg's gravesite or written on his tombstone in code, perhaps? Maybe he knew a secret but was good at keeping it, quite a good foil to Hagrid with his, 'I shouldn't have told you that...' But then, does it stand to reason if he knew it, someone else knew it as well? Maybe Hagrid knows but it hasn't come up in that round about unimportant kind of way yet. What was the original phrase or set of letters that you're all making those anagrams from? I might try it too. How old are Neville's parents? Are they the same age as Lily and James? Chys From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 18:24:59 2005 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:24:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131747 > Tonks_op. In a group situation like a classroom the kids are there for a purpose. A teacher should not have to spend a lot of time on *maintenance* issues. They are all there for a task. It takes away from the task at hand when a teacher has to first *earn their respect*. Under the old school of thought, you are there to learn.. Shut up, sit down and listen. Treat your teacher with respect. It doesn't matter *who* the teacher is. They are the person in authority and you treat them with respect (polite behavior), because you are the student and they are the teacher. This is social conditioning, the type that the older generation had and why, even today, the older generation are more respectful of others in general. I see nothing wrong with this system. And from what I hear here about U.S. schools and what I see in the behavior of young people today, a little return to the old ways would be a damn good thing!! Sarah: I think that this is still the system in place. Does this mean that it happens? No; a teacher needs to control the situation in some way, shape, or form, or the class gets out of hand. Children, especially teenagers, will get out of hand and rowdy if allowed to. This is NOT sometyhing only true of the younger generation, but of the older one as well. Every generation has complained about the "youth" of the time. In every time period, there are some elders who complain that the youth are snot nosed little brats who have no respect for their elders and that thigns were not like that when they were younger. So not true! My grandparents complained about the hippies, their parents complained of zoot-suiters, etc, etc. The behavior of young people really hasn't changed all that much, it's just that the old people have forgotten what it's like to be young! Sure, not everyone was a snot-nosed brat as a teen, but a good chunk of us were, and thought that we weren't. Now onto Snape's abuse. I work for child protective service. And Snape is abusive. Sorry. He's emotionally abusive (yes, there is such a thing), neglectful, and physically abusive towards Harry in OotP. Umbridge is abusive in her punishments, but she is not nearly as bad as Snape is. (At least in her duties as a teacher before she tried the imperious curse.) Let me deal with Umbridge first. She's a nasty person, and a very poor teacher. Her pen is the only thing abusive about her. In my opinion, she is like the old school teachers that used a ruler to rap kids on the hand. Not permissable anymore, and it hasn't been for over 20 years. (When I started elementary school.) She's mean, and not a good teacher, but in terms of abuse, the only thing she needs to stop is the pen thing. The children never reported her behavior to authorities, so we really don't know if she would have been stopped. I'm not saying that she's good, nor am I saying that she's not abusive. In public schools in the US, she'd be fired in a heart beat if the kids had ever reported her to the authorities. Now on to Snape. First of all, Snape is a bigot and a "reformed" Death Eater. As a Death Eater, he has probably been asked to kill, torture, maim, etc innocent people for their ancestry or beliefs. I think most readers tend to forget that he was a Death Eater, and what being a Death Eater entails. Remember, Sirius' brother was killed when he tried to back out for what he was being asked to do. Snapes behavior towards Hermione is neglectful at one point: he did not allow her to get medical treatment for her teeth after Draco's spell hit her. Not taking a child in for medical treatment is considered medical neglect. She went in spite of Snape, but it was Snape's duty to have someone take her to the hospital wing. (Just as it was Hagrid's duty to take Draco to the hospital wing when Draco was injured by the hippogriff.) His behavior to Harry, Neville, and Hermione in class is emotional abuse because he consistently belittles them, calls them names, and threatens them (he has threatened to drug Harry). The belittling and calling them names is a gray area (one that no adult should really cross), but he crossed it when he threatened Harry with the veritaserum. Finally, Snape was physically abusive towards Harry in OotP. Snape grabbed Harry hard enough to cause Harry pain in the arms (and Harry is used to pain), threw Harry to the ground, and threw things at Harry. In the US, Snape would be arrested for assault and battery for this. Unacceptable behavior. I very much doubt that Dumbledore would permit this if he knew, but Harry didn't tell anyone about the physical abuse. And whatever Harry did, he did not deserve this; Snape took his anger out on Harry . In my opinion, Snape is much, much more harmful to the children than Umbride is. Umbridge is incompetent, and abusive, but her abuse is much less harmful to the children in the long run than Snape's is. (Not saying that Umbridge is not abusive! She is; however her problems are with her punishments, which is a lot easier to rectify in the real world that Snape's types of abuse are.) Snape's main problem is that his troubling behavior is not misguided punishment, as Umbridges are. Umbridge's behavior in trying to use the cruciatus curse is when she crosses into Snape level abuse. Snape, however, is one nasty piece of work. And really, who knows if Dumbledore even knows about Snapes behavior? We've found out that Dumbledore is a lot less omnipresent than Harry originally believed. (Typical of children realizing that adults are humans, which is one of the reasons that teens are such brats, because they've realized that adults are only human!) Harry's never reported Snape, so who knows what Dumbledore knows? Just my two cents on the topic. From labmystc at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 18:27:45 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:27:45 -0000 Subject: "Holds you in great esteem" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131748 >maryblue67: > > This is a comment I stopped to ponder on also in my last re-read of OotP. But to me, it is > better explained if put together with some of the things Dumbledore tells Harry in his big > conversation at the end. Forgive me if my quotes aren't exact, but Dumbledore not only > sheds a tear, but also says things like "I never dreamed I would have such a person in my > care" or "I cared for you too much". These statements would make sense if either they have > had a long friendship relationships, and therefore does not make sense when used > refering to the first year, when they have basically just met, or if Dumbledore has reasons > to be close emotionally to Harry. While I don't support grandfather or similar theories, I > think that Dumbledore and the Potters must have been very close. If Dumbledore had no > family, then the Potters might have been like family and their new baby like a grandson, in > terms of affection. This said, I think that throught the years the headmasters in the > paintings must have been witnesses to this affection, starting long back with the Potters > and continuing after Harry came to Hogwarts. In addition, Dumbledore must have > discussed all of Harry's achievements and victories in his office, either directly with the > headmasters or with them as witnesses. Thus, it would be quite easy to observe > Dumbledore's "thinking highly" of Harry. > > Therefore, I do not think that Fortescue's statement is based on a recent conversation with > neither Snape nor anyone else, but a much longer affair. > I agree with this assessment based on personal experience. I had a very close relationship with my grandfather, he being more like a father to me than my own father was. However, he did not like to divulge emotion, army sergeant, man's man, all of that. I was a pallbearer at his funeral. At the end, when we progressed out of the sanctuary and passed his casket, my grandfather's minister stopped me. I hadn't spoken to this man since I was a child. He grabbed me by the arm, and whispered in my ear: "He always thought highly of you...very highly. Don't ever forget him and how much he loved you." Needless to say, I was kind of taken aback. Obviously, my grandfather had spoken quite well of me and what he thought about me to this man, though my grandfather had never muttered a word as such to me. I think the same applies here. The emotions and feelings DD has concerning Harry are probably obvious to the portraits and the professors within DD's circle. He has probably talked about Harry on many occasions, especially of how proud he is that Harry has been able to overcome obstacles. I favor the idea that DD was closer to the Potters than has been revealed to us. And I think that it is that relationship, not the event that made Harry famous, that led to DD wanting Harry retrieved from Godric's Hollow that night. Chris From maliksthong at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 18:28:38 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:28:38 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday Dobby! Stinky underwear...? In-Reply-To: <42C14EAE.4030601@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131749 > heather now: > > Um. Goody. So I share my birthday with a brown-nosing rebellious > counter-culture idol-worshipping house elf with a sock fetish? > > Bully for me (lol) > > heather the buzzard Question on that well stated description of said house elf- in the ....movie.... COS, just out of curiosity, was that Harry's underpants he was sniffing when he came out of the closet?? Chys, having just watched COS and wondering about that part. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 30 18:44:59 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:44:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lifespans? References: <1120066820.1964.46889.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003601c57da3$d3116140$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 131750 Potioncat wondered again: > You would think if he was too long ago, Sirius wouldn't know much > about him. And for that matter, I wonder how Sirius knew PN was so > unpopular? > > Here's how I came up with a possible date. For an arbitrary reason, I > made most of the generations 30 years. That's on the older side. I > also made Sirius' parents older than that, given that Mrs. Black is > an elderly witch in her portrait. 30 years is the standard "generation" in our own world. It's difficult to estimate how that would be modified in the WW. On one side, there are those who'd point to the fact that wizards reach sexual maturity at the same time as Muggles and, at least in Harry's case, can start having children early. Others would say that early maturity doesn't necessarily mean that it's socially typical to have children young, and that one of the reasons that we see so few brothers/sisters in the books is that it's quite normal to have children with long gaps in between. If that is so, then a WW generation would be much long than a Muggle one, perhaps (if like me you assume that a WW lifespan is Muggle x 3) as long as 90 years. My only reason for leaning that way is that if you have a 30 year generation for the WW, coupled with the extra lifespan, the WW would be up to its waist in grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great-you get the picture. I could of course be wrong. The books have one person's perspective (Harry's), and a person with no surviving relatives at that. If I'm right, it could date Black dad at 1870, granddad at 1780 and great-granddad at 1690. He'd be my candidate for Phineas, for no particular reason but that Phineas seems to have an 18th century "feel" to him. If that were so, then, let's assume that he became Head at the age of 100, in 1790, and held the position for 90 years until Dippet took over. That would mean that he could have been Head while Dumbledore was a pupil! > And, now it crosses my mind, those Blacks don't live very long lives, > do they? Depends how old Mrs B was when Sirius was born. She could perhaps have been in her 120s. Scary. But JKR alone knows all. hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From labmystc at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 18:48:01 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:48:01 -0000 Subject: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131751 > So why is this on JKR's website? (Extra Stuff, opening chapters of > PS): "Other drafts included a character by the name of 'Pyrites', > whose name means 'fool's gold'. He was a servant of Voldemort's and > was meeting Sirius in front of the Potters' house. Pyrites, too, had > to be discarded . . ." > > Why was a servent of LV *meeting* *Sirius* in front of J&L's house? > > Is it possible that this is a Flint, or at least an artifact from an > earlier draft in which SB was the actual spy? Or is a slip? > > I guess we'll find out in a couple weeks, maybe, but what do you > guys think? > > TK -- TigerPatronus I don't think JKR meant it to be any indication that Sirius was once going to be the spy. My guess is Pyrites was a person that Sirius would have confronted after the Potters' deaths who was still lingering aroung Godric's Hollow. This probably would have replaced Hagrid's falshback in PoA when he remembers meeting and comforting Sirius, then retrieving the flying motorcylce to go and rescue Harry. However, it does beg the question. Why would this storyline have been cut simply because Peter eventually became the spy in her writing? Who would have been the spy? I don't see Sirius as the spy, at all, ever. This would have blown half of the themes Harry has dealt with right out of the mix. Sirius as father-figure and brother. Sirius as adult who can't grow up. Sirius as bad angel/negative conscience to Harry. All of these themes would have been up in smoke. Just MHO, Chris From timnshell at hotmail.com Thu Jun 30 19:10:02 2005 From: timnshell at hotmail.com (Shell) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:10:02 -0000 Subject: The Voice in Harry's Head Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131752 Okay, this has been bugging me for quite a while now. I've been re- listening to the books (for about the 30,000th time now!) and I've decided to put it to you all. In GOF, when Moody puts the Imperious Curse on Harry, he hears a voice in his head that helps him fight the curse. Who is this voice? Is this a remnant of Lord V? Or something else? I can't recall if JKR ever explained this. Anyway, would love to hear what you all think of this. Shell From emza at tesco.net Thu Jun 30 17:30:35 2005 From: emza at tesco.net (emza29) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:30:35 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? Common Law Ref. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131753 Bboyminn: > > > > > > First are 'Entailments' which are legal conditions tied to > > > an estate that can have legal precedence that can be applied > > > across centuries, in some cases applied to an estate forever. > > a_svirn: > > > > As far as I know entails were supposed to be confirmed in each > > generation. Moreover, they could be "broken" with the heir's consent The trouble with the entail theory, which does ring true in terms of how Sirius might have inherited the Black estate, is that Grimmauld Place itself seems to have been his mother's house, not his father's, and therefore, self-evidently, had either descended through the female line, or had been bought by Mrs Black with her own money. If it had been inherited by Mrs Black, it could therefore be passed on to another female. If she had bought it with her own money, it would not be encumbered by an entail, and she could leave it how she wished. If this is so, how *did* Sirius end up with it? Mrs Black's attachment to the family is terribly strong - maybe despite her personal feelings towards her worthless son, in the end her attachment to the proper descent of property won out. Anyway...given that it is Mrs not Mr Black's, I assume that there is either other property somewhere, to which knowledge we are not privy, or "the Black estate" was nothing more than a bunch of mouldering magical artefacts. Emma From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 19:29:33 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:29:33 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? Common Law Ref. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131754 Emma: > The trouble with the entail theory, which does ring true in terms of > how Sirius might have inherited the Black estate, is that Grimmauld > Place itself seems to have been his mother's house, not his > father's, and therefore, self-evidently, had either descended > through the female line, or had been bought by Mrs Black with her > own money. If it had been inherited by Mrs Black, it could therefore > be passed on to another female. If she had bought it with her own > money, it would not be encumbered by an entail, and she could leave > it how she wished. a_svirn: Yet the tapestry represented the "Noble House of Black", and the portraits were also Blacks. Considering Sirius's bitter comments on the subject of the Black's inbreeding tradition and their conviction that being a Black makes one almost royal, my guess is that Mr and Mrs Black were first cousins (to marry a daughter off to a heir apparent in order to secure her inheritance was a practice not at all unheard of). Another possibility that the marriage was actually incestual. Blacks had been dark wizards for centuries after all, who knows what ghastly customs would that "entail". From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 19:37:19 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:37:19 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! ... She's such a 'Weasley'. In-Reply-To: <7b.4843af46.2ff55151@wmconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, adesahafford at w... wrote: > phoenixgod2000 wrote: > > Instead all we get is Hermione talking about how Ginny changed. > > It's clumsy writing. We get implausible stories about her taking > > out her brothers brooms to practice alone. > Adesa: > > JKR knows how to lay foundations and generally writes her characters well. So I think she has written Ginny like this for a reason: We are to be as surprised by her change as Harry is. He hardly notices her in POA and GOF; when she's finally over her crush, she begins to interact with him in a normal way. He now notices her because they have normal conversations and Hermione has become closer to her, thus bringing more contact with Harry. Wow, he's thinking, she sure has changed. How'd *that* happen? I think the lack of info during Ginny's transformation/coming into her own in a family of boys is intentional > to make the reader as shocked as Harry must be. > > Adesa bboyminn: So, people say the clues weren't there. Just out of curiousity, I went back and read an earlier section of PoA to see how Ginny was interacting with people when Harry was around, and the clues are definitely there. Prior to this, whenever Harry was around, Ginny went completely stoic, frozen by tension. But in PoA Ginny laughs freely in a conversation with Mrs. Weasley and Hermione while Harry is at the breakfast table with them. Later, on the train platform, Harry and Ginny share a giggle and a suppressed smile at how dorky Percy is acting. Still later, on the train, Harry wants to tell Ron and Hermione about the things Mr. Weasley told him (re: Sirius Black) but Ginny is there. Ron tells Ginny to 'go away' and she replies huffily "On, that's nice." and stalks off. That's not the response of the shy, mute, inhibited Ginny we have seen earlier. It shows a boldness and confidence not previously seen In GoF, we actually see Harry and Ginny engage in normal converstation, and see hints of a new comfort level and confidents in Ginny. As to why Ginny is moving to the forefront of the story, that should be obvious, she is moving forward to take the place of Fred and George who are moving into the background now that they are no longer at Hogwarts. So, the signs that Ginny inhibition around and infatuation with Harry are fading are actually there very early if you just look for them. Yes, the hints are small and very subtle, but they are there none the less. I have to wonder it the real problem isn't that the books don't give hints, it's that readers have so thoroughly and confidently place Ginny into their own self-defined compartment that they are shock when that image is broken. The reason, I don't have a problem with Ginny's change, is that once we see her, we see that she is as Weasley as a Weasley can be. She is, in my mind, exactly who I would expect her to be given the family she has grown up with. He primary Weasely characteristics are pig-headed, stubborn, determined, quick witted, outspoken, confident, independant, daring, magically talented, and given that she has 6 older brothers, she knows how to handle and is comfortable aroung men, and has probably been effectively wrapping them around her little finger since she was two years old. I think too, as Rebecca pointed out, that now that Ginny has reached puberty, Harry is seeing her in a whole new light; a whole new light that is illuminated with a nice new set of 'headlights' (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, - if you know what I mean). This is no longer Ron's little leave-us-alone shy tag-a-long sister; this is a young confident self-determined young woman, and like as said, she is a Weasley to her core. So, given that fact that she is what I would have expected the youngest Weasley to be like, I'm not that shocked. And remember, her growing prominence is there to offset Fred and George's deminishing prominence. Yes, her change was sudden, and it catches Harry as off-guard as it catches us, and that should be a clue in and of itself. As a side note - I SO PREDICTED Ron's reaction to any guys that are interested in Ginny. Typical big brother behavior. I still see Ron acting like this when Ginny is in her 30's, assuming she's not married by that time. In fact, I suspect if Ginny dated Prince Harry or Prince William of Windsor, Ron would be so... "Who is this Guy?" "What do we know about him?" "I don't trust him. He's got shifty eyes." "He's only after one thing!" ETC...ad infinitum. For what it's worth. Steve/bboyminn From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 19:43:32 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:43:32 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? Common Law Ref. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131756 Emma: > > If this is so, how *did* Sirius end up with it? Mrs Black's > attachment to the family is terribly strong - maybe despite her > personal feelings towards her worthless son, in the end her > attachment to the proper descent of property won out. Or she held out hope that Sirus would one day redeem himself in her eyes, and never got around to actually disowning him before dying. For that matter, she may well have believed that he *had* redeemed himself, by her lights, when he was "revealed" as a supporter of Voldy. Imagine her potrait's disappointment when he brought a bunch of Muggle-lovers, mudbloods and werewolves into "her" house. Amiable Dorsai From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 30 19:45:44 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:45:44 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mochajava13" wrote: > In my opinion, Snape is much, much more harmful to the children > than Umbride is. Umbridge is incompetent, and abusive, but her > abuse is much less harmful to the children in the long run than > Snape's is. I don't agree with this at all. The Umbridge is far, far more abusive than Snape will ever be: Umbridge is deliberately preventing the children form learning DADA. She may very well be incompetent as well, but we don't know that. Her sole and onle purpose as a DADA teacher is making sure the children will have no practical knowledge of the subject at all. Why? Because Fudge is afraid... Lots of stuff people learn in DADA is essential knowledge in the ww (see al the creatures in PoA) and to make sure the children do not learn this stuff is not only abusive it is criminal and dangerous. Snape at least teaches his subject and wants his students to do well. Gerry From keepintbpa at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 19:28:02 2005 From: keepintbpa at yahoo.com (Steph) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Voice in Harry's Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050630192802.27161.qmail@web31612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131758 Shell: In GOF, when Moody puts the Imperious Curse on Harry, he hears a voice in his head that helps him fight the curse. Who is this voice? Stephanie: I haven't begun my own re-read of GOF yet, so my answer may be off. I was under the impression that it was Harry's own voice and willpower fighting Crouch!Moody's demands when he was under the Imperious Curse. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tab1669 at elnet.com Thu Jun 30 17:54:39 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:54:39 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > I hate that redheaded red herring for Harry's affections. > Especially after OOTP. I hated the way she burst onto the scene with > supercool flying ability and quiddich love (never once mentioned > before). I hate the way she's apparently a powerful witch (also > never mentioned before. You'd think someone would have noticed > before now). I hate that suddenly she's Hermiones bestest girlfriend Flyingmonkeypurpe now: It sounds like somone is Jealous of Ginny. Also they would not have noticed before because they don't have any classes with her. She does not do magic outside of the classroom like the twins. We don't get to see her do magic until ootp. phoenixgod2000: > annoying, poorly written, poorly foreshadowed character with an > inexplicable fanbase considering what she's actually done. Flyimgmonkey: Neville has not done anything ether but alot of people like him. If your talking about doing stuff like Harry then he is the only one who does that kind of stuff. Ron and Hermione both help but Harry does the rest. So your saying that because she is not Harry that people should not like her? phoenixgod2000: > "She never shuts up," does not a characterization make regardless > of what Ginny defenders think. Nothing about the way she acted in > OOTP made sense at all when you think about anything shes done in > the past books. flyingmonkey: Now that Ron and Hermione are both prefects Harry has no one to talk to when they are doing their jobs. So now HArry has to talk with other people. (EX Neville and Ginny ) So now we get to see more of Ginny and Neville flyingmonkeypurple From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Jun 30 20:19:15 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:19:15 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! ... She's such a 'Weasley'. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131760 > > bboyminn: > > So, people say the clues weren't there. Just out of curiousity, I went > back and read an earlier section of PoA to see how Ginny was > interacting with people when Harry was around, and the clues are > definitely there. So the clues were there that she is magically powerful? That she likes quiddich? That she likes to prank people? That she liked to steal the twins brooms so she could learn how to fly? > Prior to this, whenever Harry was around, Ginny went completely stoic, > frozen by tension. But in PoA Ginny laughs freely in a conversation > In GoF, we actually see Harry and Ginny engage in normal > converstation, and see hints of a new comfort level and confidents in Ginny. But those 'clues' are so vague you could justfiy any personality change with them. You could have her turn into the next Parvati or Lavender and justify them with the same clues. > As to why Ginny is moving to the forefront of the story, that should > be obvious, she is moving forward to take the place of Fred and George > who are moving into the background now that they are no longer at > Hogwarts. Other than laughing that their jokes (which everyone but Molly and Snape does), were you aware that Ginny was especially a fan of theirs or of pranking in general? I have to wonder it the real problem isn't that the books don't > give hints, it's that readers have so thoroughly and confidently place > Ginny into their own self-defined compartment that they are shock when > that image is broken. But Neville's been kind of a spineless screwup for the entire series, and not a single person has problem with his transformation. Hell, Harry doesn't notice that one happen either, but all of us still did. So Ginny *could* have had better foreshadowing. > The reason, I don't have a problem with Ginny's change, is that once > we see her, we see that she is as Weasley as a Weasley can be. Actually she's almost too generic as a weasley. Every other one has characteristics that are uniquely theirs, something that they have that no other weasley has. Bill (my personal idol) has his coolness and Fleur, Charile has dragons, the twins have each other and their business dreams, Ron has chess, his insecurities, and the cannons, Percy has the stick up his %&^%&, and Ginny has...what? Ginny is just an amalgam of different weasley characteristics desgined to make her be cool without anything of her own. I suppose you could argue Voldemort, but that's only brought up a handful of times, and nothing comes out of it. If that's supposed to be her thing, its being done badly. > I think too, as Rebecca pointed out, that now that Ginny has reached > puberty, Harry is seeing her in a whole new light; a whole new light > that is illuminated with a nice new set of 'headlights' (nudge, nudge, > wink, wink, - if you know what I mean). I got your totally subtle and completely nonsexist comments. Nice! On a more serious note, please tell me where Harry sees her in a whole new light? Ron was preoccupied with Ginny's love life throughout the books, but Harry basically said "Huh, so she's talking to me now? Thats nice." Not the slightest hint of real emotions toward her, not the slightest bit of caring about her love life, and he basically ignores her existence unless she's right in front of him or taking his spot on the quiddich team. Not to mention completely disrespects her ability as a seeker and as a fighter (and that was after seeing her in action during the DA). I don't see it. And remember, her > growing prominence is there to offset Fred and George's deminishing > prominence. If all Ginny is going to be is the next generation of comic relief then I will be fine. It's the LI aspect and her really annoying attitude that bothers me. > Yes, her change was sudden, and it catches Harry as off-guard as it > catches us, and that should be a clue in and of itself. While it does catch him off guard right at the beginning of the book, it moves to the realm of complete irrelevence once he gets used to the new status quo. We saw Harry's infatuation with cho coming two books away and yet not even the smallest thought of Ginny in a romantic light during OOTP. Not even a twinge. > As a side note - I SO PREDICTED Ron's reaction to any guys that are > interested in Ginny. Typical big brother behavior. I still see Ron > acting like this when Ginny is in her 30's, assuming she's not married > by that time. I still act that way and my sister is practically married. It is what big brothers do and I thought Ron's reactions were well done as well. Ron also seems to want Ginny and Harry to hook up. Maybe that means they won't since Ron will be shoving Ginny on Harry. Could be some good comedy. phoenixgod2000 From emza at tesco.net Thu Jun 30 20:08:22 2005 From: emza at tesco.net (emza29) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:08:22 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? Common Law Ref. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131761 Emma earlier: > The trouble with the entail theory, which does ring true in terms of > how Sirius might have inherited the Black estate, is that Grimmauld > Place itself seems to have been his mother's house, not his > father's, and therefore, self-evidently, had either descended > through the female line, or had been bought by Mrs Black with her > own money. If it had been inherited by Mrs Black, it could therefore > be passed on to another female. If she had bought it with her own > money, it would not be encumbered by an entail, and she could leave > it how she wished. Emma now: Sorry for replying to my own post.I should have thought some more about this before I pressed 'send'. Let me explain why I think Number 12 Grimmauld Place was Mrs Black's property rather than the Black ancestral seat: Mrs Black regards it as the house of *her* fathers: "Filth! Scum! By-products of dirt and vileness! Half-breeds, mutants, freaks, begone from this place! How dare you befoul the house of my fathers - " (p 74 OOTP UK edition) Sirius sees the house as the place where his father lived for a time: 'My father put every security measure known to wizardkind on it *when he lived here*' (my emphasis; p 106 as before) Kreacher sees the house as Mrs Black's: '...nasty old blood traitor with her brats messing up my mistress's house, oh, my poor mistress, if she knew, if she knew the scum they've let into her house, what would she say to old Kreacher' (p 100 as before) As does Snape: '"Or are you afraid he might not take very seriously the advice of a man who has been hiding inside his mother's house for six months?"' (to Sirius) (p 399-400 as before) I'm aware that any of the above might be explained away as individual statements. Mrs Black's personality permeates 12 Grimmauld Place, mainly because of her portrait in the entrance hall. It is almost inevitable that Mr Black is less prominent in people's minds. Kreacher obviously adored her so sees the house as hers, and Snape was aiming to insult Sirius as much as possible by implying that he's still tied to his mother's apron strings. Still, I don't think the strong personality of Mrs Black entirely explains away Sirius referring to his father strengthening the security 'when he lived here', or Mrs Black referring to 'the house of my fathers'. I'm sure there are lots of possible explanations for the above ? I like a_svirn's idea of Mr and Mrs Black having an incestuous marriage ? but it seems to me that the easiest is that the house actually was `the house of [Mrs Black's] fathers' rather than Mr Black's, and that Mr Black did indeed only live there for the time being. The following is pure speculation, and based almost entirely on too much reading of Jane Austen and George Eliot, but it also strikes me as implausible that such a grand family as the Blacks seem to be should have a house in a *street* with a *number* as their main seat. Betcha there's a country estate somewhere, or there was, and Number 12 Grimmauld Place was just their house in town, brought to the marriage by Mrs Black. From timnshell at hotmail.com Thu Jun 30 20:40:31 2005 From: timnshell at hotmail.com (Shell) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:40:31 -0000 Subject: The Voice in Harry's Head In-Reply-To: <20050630192802.27161.qmail@web31612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131762 Shell: > > In GOF, when Moody puts the Imperious Curse on Harry, > he hears a voice > in his head that helps him fight the curse. Who is > this voice? > Stephanie: > > I haven't begun my own re-read of GOF yet, so my > answer may be off. I was under the impression that it > was Harry's own voice and willpower fighting > Crouch!Moody's demands when he was under the Imperious > Curse. Shell: No, I really don't believe it is Harry's own voice. It distinctly said "A voice in Harry's head awakened...." If it was his own voice, there would be no reason for it to "awaken". And wouldn't he have heard the voice before this? And if I remember correctly, he hears this voice yet again when he's dueling with Lord V. Ah, so darn confusing!!! From alishak at spu.edu Thu Jun 30 21:20:44 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:20:44 -0000 Subject: The Voice in Harry's Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131763 > Shell: > > No, I really don't believe it is Harry's own voice. It > distinctly said "A voice in Harry's head awakened...." If it was his > own voice, there would be no reason for it to "awaken". And wouldn't > he have heard the voice before this? And if I remember correctly, he > hears this voice yet again when he's dueling with Lord V. > > Ah, so darn confusing!!! Alisha: I think the biggest evidence for it being Harry's own voice is that it speaks in the first person. Normally, when Harry "hears voices" in his head, they use "you". "The had didn't want to put you in Gryffindor." (paraphrased) for example. This time, it uses "I". "I don't think I will, thanks." (or something along those lines). If the voice belonged to someone else, it would refer to Harry in the second person. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 21:56:34 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:56:34 -0000 Subject: The Voice in Harry's Head - Talking to his 'Self' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131764 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shell" wrote: > > In GOF, when Moody puts the Imperious Curse on Harry, he hears a > voice in his head that helps him fight the curse. Who is this voice? > Is this a remnant of Lord V? Or something else? I can't recall if > JKR ever explained this. > > Anyway, would love to hear what you all think of this. > > Shell bboyminn: First, let me ask, don't you have that voice in you own head? Don't you carry on a mental dialog when you think about something or weigh a decision? Haven't you ever seen the image of a person with a devil sitting on one shoulder and an angel sitting on the other while the person weighs the Pro's and Con's of a decision? Aren't all our mental dialogs influenced by various aspects of ourselves? Isn't physical desire always debating moral conscience? etc... When Harry is under the Imperius Curse, that voice is simply a higher stronger aspect of himself coming forward, fighting its way through the peacefull fog and contentment that the curse has forced on him. Other less strong willed people simply let the intoxicating effect of the curse take control of them, they are content to set their 'Self' aside and just ride in the peace. Harry's 'Self' is strong enough to step forward and refuse to be suppressed by the intoxication effect. One his stronger 'Self' steps forward, it become a debate between free-will and a will that is being forced on him. The same is true of the Occlumency lessons. When Harry is under the influence of the Legilimens Charm/Curse, he is initially content to just side back and watch while these interesting images come floating by, but the minute they roam into something sensitive and personal, his strong-will self-determined 'Self' step forward and says, 'NO! I won't allow that memory to be seen'. Also, on occassion when a voice, sounding very much like Hermione's, speaks, it's really just his own conscience and voice of reason. How often do WE ALL ignore that voice when it speaks to us? So, these voices are just aspects of Harry 'Self' carrying on a normal internal dialog. Just one man's view. Steve/bboyminn From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 30 22:20:19 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:20:19 -0400 Subject: Lily? Message-ID: <42C47023.3060705@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131765 I just read this quote from JKR, which I hadn't personally read before: Now, the - the important thing about Harry's mother - the really, really significant thing - you're going to find out in two - in two parts. You'll find out a lot more about her in book five, or you'll find out something very significant about her in book five, and you'll find out something incredibly important about her in book seven. I presume that this quote is the origin of the question "What is Lily's Big Secret?" But, it left me wondering -- what "very significant" thing did we learn about her in book 5? The only thing I really recall was that DD spelled out in more detail the 'old magic' her sacrifice left in Harry. But that's not really telling us anything *about her*. Other things, like that she belonged to the Order and had 'thrice defied' LV, also apply to James, and to others as well in fact. And they're not really all that *surprising* things heh. Am I forgetting something, or did JKR change tack along the way? heather the buzzard From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jun 30 23:07:15 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:07:15 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! ... She's such a 'Weasley'. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131766 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > > > > > bboyminn: > > > > So, people say the clues weren't there. ... an earlier section of > > PoA to see how Ginny was interacting with people when Harry was > > around... > PhoenixGod: > > So the clues were there that she is magically powerful? That she > likes quiddich? That she likes to prank people? That she liked to > steal the twins brooms so she could learn how to fly? > bboyminn: But you are not arguing 'clues' and 'hints', you are agruing details. Would Ginny be likely to be magicaly powerful? Of course, given the rest of her family, I would expect nothing less. I don't need clues to imply that detail. Is she into Quidditch? Well, given her family, she either loves it or hates it, and we have no clue that she hates it. She has lived immersed in Quidditch with six brothers who live and breath Quidditch. She likes to Prank people? I think that's an assumption your part. We see no evidence, but on a broad scale, yes, she probable is not above pulling a prank now and them; sweet revenge on six self-absorbed older brothers, oh sweet revenge. The clues are not in the details. No, JKR doesn't drop a clue that Ginny is specifically any of these things, because those wouldn't be clues, they would be data. The clues regarding Ginny are that she does not fit into this comfortable little pigeonhole we have all been /persuaded/ to put her in. Again, the clues and hints are not in the details, but in the fact that things are not as they seem. Further, remember with regard to the greater story arc, Ginny is a minor character. Even if JKR tried, the publishing editors are not going to clutter books that are already an unprecedented size with details of a minor character unless those details move the central plot along. Keep in mind that the British editors removed Dean Thomas's sorting in order to trim back the size of the book. By Harry Potter standard, a short book. British readers were surprised to discover Dean was a black Londoner. In addition, while dropping SUBTLE hint that things are not as they seem, JKR, I think, indended Ginny's real personality to surprise us the readers as much as it surprised Harry. > PhoenixGod continues: > > ...edited... > > On a more serious note, please tell me where Harry sees her in a > whole new light? > bboyminn: Well, he's not blind, true, he may not be impressed at the moment, but he's not blind. We all saw it clearly, how could Harry not see the new Ginny, and in seeing her, how could he not regard her in a whole new light. The problem is, the 'Ginny' aspect of the story didn't have time to develop enough for Harry to react. The story was too busy with the story to react to this minor point, but none the less, it is obvious and will be developed further. > > bboyminn originally said: > > > > And remember, her growing prominence is there to offset Fred and > > George's deminishing prominence. > Lord and Master of all Phoenix (phoenixgod2000) replies: > > If all Ginny is going to be is the next generation of comic relief > then I will be fine. It's the LI aspect and her really annoying > attitude that bothers me. > bboyminn: Ahhhh... but you missed one very crucial point. I never said Ginny would replace Fred and George's PURPOSE in the story, she will replace their /prominence/. Ginny will not become the 'prankster', she will become the 'other' Weasleys in Harry's daily life. > > bboyminn originally said: > > Yes, her change was sudden, and it catches Harry as off-guard as > > it catches us, and that should be a clue in and of itself. > Phoenixgod replies: > > While it does catch him off guard right at the beginning of the > book, it moves to the realm of complete irrelevence once he gets > used to the new status quo. ...not even the smallest thought of > Ginny in a romantic light during OOTP. ... > bboyminn: We each come to enlightenment in our own way. For some, it comes as a revelation, as in Ron's "Hermione, you're a girl!". For others, it's a growing awareness. While Harry hasn't felt the 'twinge' in his loins, he does have a growing awareness that Ginny is not Ron's baby sister, rather a young woman that is found desirable by many men. So, if we just give those 'headlights' a little more time to shine, whether he fall for her or not, Harry will certainly feel a 'twinge' of enlightenment. Either that or 1,000,000 SLASH stories weren't wrong afterall. > > bboyminn: > > > > As a side note - I SO PREDICTED Ron's reaction to any guys that > > are interested in Ginny. Typical big brother behavior. I still > > see Ron acting like this when Ginny is in her 30's, assuming she's > > not marriedby that time. > Phoenixgod: > > I still act that way and my sister is practically married. It is > what big brothers do and I thought Ron's reactions were well done as > well. Ron also seems to want Ginny and Harry to hook up. Maybe that > means they won't since Ron will be shoving Ginny on Harry. Could be > some good comedy. > > phoenixgod2000 bboyminn: Yes, I thoroughly enjoyed Ron's reaction, and I anticipate it will get worse before it gets better. Slashy as it may seem, I could see Ron not being too flustered if Dean or Seamus slept with Harry (slash-nudge, slash-wink); he could trust Dean and Seamus THAT MUCH, but he would go ballistic at the thought of either Dean or Seamus even thinking about Ginny, shag Harry-yes, but he certainly doesn't want those filthy disgusting perverted 'they only want one thing' boys thinking about his sister /that way/. It really is quite comical. Steve/bboyminn