Sirius and Prank again? Fools Rush in where Wisemen Fear to Go

[eloise_herisson]

No: HPFGUIDX 129977

Alla:> Eloise:
> <SNIP>
> Sirius knew exactly what he was doing in tempting him to 
> follow a werewolf into an enclosed environment. 
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I'd like to say that we don't know yet whether Sirius knew exactly 
> what he was doing that night and what exactly Sirius was doing.
> 
> Just me of course.


Eloise:

Fair enough. 
Though I'm hard pressed to see how one of the brightest students of 
the year *didn't* know what the probable results of encouraging 
someone to follow a werewolf into a dead end on transformation night 
wouldn't be pretty dire.

I acknowledge that there's a logical flaw in my argument, since in 
fact, I think Sirius *didn't* think. If he *had* thought, then he 
would have realised the possible consequences for Lupin. That lack of 
thought, IMHO, is a result of his loathing for Snape, a loathing 
which led him to think it might be "amusing" to tempt him to follow 
Remus and a loathing which makes him continue to be unapologetic.

> 
>  
> Steve/bboyminn:
> Let me conclude by re-enforcing the point that no matter how much 
> guilt may belong to Snape, it doesn't absolve Sirius's action. 
>  
> Eloise:
> No, it doesn't. What he did was utterly wrong, yet he shows no 
> regret, not even an acknowledgement that it was wrong, just 
> childishly tries to justify it like my kids might:
>  
> "Don't hit your sister."
> "But she was annoying me."
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Doesn't it strike you as strange that Sirius after spending twelve 
> years in Azkaban reacts so violently at the first mention of 
Snape's 
> name. Granted, you can argue that Sirius is a vicious murderer, who 
> always wanted to kill Snape, but isn't it possible that this 
> reaction shows hatred which relies on something much more in depth 
> than the fact that Snape was spying on them?

Eloise:

I don't know what is the root cause of Sirius' enmity towards Snape, 
any more than I *know* what is at the root of the enmity between 
James and Snape.

What I do know is that Lupin is part of the same group. Lupin, whom 
many regard as flawed (and I'd agree) is actually the one who 
acknowledges that the "Prank" nearly killed Snape and that it 
involved him. He shows none of Sirius' animosity towards Snape, 
despite the fact that his nosiness could have ended up with Lupin's 
expulsion (or death? What is the WW penalty for a captured werewolf 
who has killed?) He also shows no hostility towards Sirius over the 
incident.

I'm prepared to cut Sirius some slack (plenty of slack) for being 
unbalanced after twelve years in Azkaban. But he did something that 
was foolhardy, dangerous and wrong, however "innocent" his intentions 
at the time. I maintain that, as with my children, his justification 
of his actions represents an unspoken acknowledgement of that fact 
combined with an unwillingness to lose face by admitting it.

Alla:
> For twelve years Dementors were eating up Sirius' happy thoughts. 
If 
> his reactions about Snape were left intact, isn't it possible that 
> something VERY unhappy connects those two?

Eloise:
Possibly. Though I doubt he had any happy thoughts about Snape anyway.
Except for remembering how he'd tempted him into the tunnel of 
course. ;-)

I'm not commenting on what fuelled their animosity. I just find it 
regrettable that Sirius is unable to admit that he did something 
which could have had such dangerous consequences. It shows strength, 
not weakness to acknowledge that you've made a mistake.

Of course, I wouldn't alter anything. In fact one of my great 
disappointments of OoP was that we didn't see more Sirius-Snape 
interaction. But it's still one of the reasons that I find it 
difficult to like Sirius.

Eloise: 
> <SNIP>
>  And in this case, the "Prank" was 
> designed with malice aforethought, even if Sirius hadn't thought 
the 
> implications through completely.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I don't think we know yet for sure that Prank was designed with 
> malice aforethought. I may be wrong of course.

Eloise:

Could you suggest an innocent "amusing" reason for tempting Snape 
into the tunnel? 


> Steve/bboyminn:
>  
> In simpliest terms, there is a difference between throwing someone
> into a dean of wolves, and simply telling him where the dean is.
>  
> That's all I'm trying to say.
>  
> > Eloise:
> > If you *know* that the person will enter the den, then morally, 
> > there's no difference at all, IMHO.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Oh, I disagree with you, Eloise and I agree with Steve.  Simple 
> hypothetical. 

<Snip hypothetical>

Eloise:

If I did that to you, knowing that you couldn't resist the bait, then 
yes, I believe I would bear the lion's share of the responsibility 
and all the *culpability*. Taking advantage of another's weakness is 
never pretty.

I guess my bottom line is that I have the right to do something 
foolish with my own life (and yes, that's my responsibility) but I 
don't have the right to encourage someone else to do something 
foolish with theirs. Surely it is *wrong* to do something for our own 
amusement that any reasonable person could see had a strong 
likelihood of harming another.

I never said that Snape wasn't foolish for falling for the bait.
But we have *no* reason whatsoever to believe that Sirius suggested 
to Snape that he would be entering a dangerous situation. Yes, Snape 
should have been able to work it out for himself (although he could 
reasonably have expected that a werewolf might have been somewhat 
more restrained, caged perhaps) and that's where the inconsistency 
lies.

Actually (sorry) I blame JKR. ;-) I'm stepping back for a minute to 
look a this as a piece of writing.

I think it's incredibly hard to set up this kind of thing without 
some inconsistencies creeping in. Sirius trying to feed Snape to a 
werewolf is the counterpoint to (and the ostensible reason for) Snape 
wanting to feed Sirius to the Dementors. The snooping around after 
MWWP is the superficial reason we are given for the initial 
resentment between them (which I quite agree might have a deeper 
cause). Unfortunately, the snooping around *ought* to have alerted 
Snape to what he might face. It's compounded in OoP by having Snape 
reading about werewolves, a detail surely meant to remind us of the 
snooping, the resentment, but inconsistent with his decision to enter 
the tunnel.

But then, books in general are full of these sorts of things. In this 
series, how is it *possible* that Harry both asks and confides so 
little? A good thing it is, too, or there's be no plot at all to 
speak of if he did what any sensible boy should do and tell the 
greatest wizard of the age whenever he had a suspicion that something 
was wrong instead of going it alone. 

These books are scrutinised to a degree that no author ought to have 
to put up with, every little inconsistency is found and we 
desperately try to find internal justifications for them, 
justifications which I believe will sometimes be elusive. In this 
case, I think we have details given as an aid to characterisation 
slightly clashing with the plot.


> 
> 
> > Valky:
> <SNIP>
> Sirius does not think Sevvie was blameless, and apparently neither 
> did Dumbledore.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I don't know for sure what Dumbledore thinks of course, but I 
> believe that what you are saying IS a possibility, because I always 
> thought that " My memory is as good as ever" to be opened to very 
> wide interpretations.

Eloise:

Snape was breaking school rules and I'm sure he was punished, just as 
Draco was in similar circumstances. As, I presume, were Sirius and 
James. If they weren't, then Snape had good cause for resentment.

Alla:
> One more thing - we all know JKR's answer on her website to the 
> question " Do you like Sirius Black?", where she lists his positive 
> and negative qualities.
> 
> I am not going to quote the whole answer again, but just one 
> sentence.
> 
> "Sirius is brave, loyal, reckless, embittered and slightly 
> unbalanced by his long stay in Azkaban."
> 
> The word which I am looking at here is loyal. If loyalty is one of 
> Sirius' determining qualities, isn't it possible that he did not 
> actually betray Remus or at least was not planning  consciously to 
> betray Remus and again, maybe there is something about Prank we are 
> not privy to yet.

Eloise:

I don't think for one minute he *planned* to betray Remus (if by that 
you are referring to the possible consequences of the "Prank"). What 
I think is that blind hatred and that recklessness which is another 
of the determining characteristics mentioned above led him to do 
something which Lupin would be equally justified on resenting. Only 
Lupin doesn't.


Alla:
> Please forgive me for talking like a Parrot. :-)

Eloise:
Ditto.

~Eloise