Sirius and Prank again? Pranks, Bullies, Nerds, School

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 130086

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" <a_svirn at y...> wrote:

> 
> a_svirn:
> 
> Well, in GoF Voldemort "forced" Harry to come to the Graveyard, 
> while in OOP he just gave Harry information and waited patiently for 
> Harry to "freely" make up his mind. 
> 
> Does it mean that Voldemort mellowed a bit over the year? That his 
> behaviour in OOP is less murderous than in GoF? And if not, why we 
> should apply different criteria to Sirius? If he *wanted* to kill 
> Snape it doesn't matter in the least whether he "forced" him or 
> lured him into the Shack playing on his weaknesses. In fact the 
> latter seems even more cynical, especially considering that the 
> betrayal of his friend was involved. If he didn't intend to kill or 
> even to play a prank and the whole business was an accident – well, 
> then there is nothing more to say. It doesn't seem likely though. 
> 
> 
> a_svirn:

bboyminn:

Ooooo, nice one...close by no cigar. If you are going to apply this
analogy to the overal discussion, then you shouldn't compare Sirius to
Voldemort, although that does have some merit, you need to analogize
Harry to Snape.

In GoF, Harry is force to go to the graveyard. It's absolutely out of
his control ....poof! and he's gone.

In OotP, just like Snape, Harry made a conscious decision and a direct
determined concerted effort to go. Therefore, as anyone can see, Harry
does hold a share of the blame for what happened at the Dept of
Mysteries. However, as Dumbledore clearly points out in the 'wrap up'
talk, Dumbledore and the people around Harry take the bulk of the
blame. And of course, Voldemort like Sirius holds blame in all cases.

I've been a major factor in the discussion of this particular subject,
but I have never claimed that all the blame falls on Snape, nor have I
claimed that no blame falls on Snape. What I have claimed is that
/some/ degree of blame does fall on Snape, but without the details of
that incident, we can't really determine how much. 

To state the obvious, the more blame Snape holds, the less falls on
Sirius, and conversely, the less blame that falls on Snape, the more
blame falls on Sirius. But exactly how much fall where, we don't know.

I would agree perhaps that Sirius was surely malicious in his intent,
but he may have informed Snape in a way, as illustrated by my sample
scenarios, in which he wasn't or at least tried not to be malicious in
his actions. There is a difference. However, that difference in no way
excuses Sirius, and in no way makes him blameless. In all cases, for
his intent, Sirius will alway share the blame. But again, without the
details, we can't determine what degree of blame falls where. 

I can confidently say that all parties share blame, but the real
question is how much?


Side note: Someone else said in responding to this thread that James
(and/or Sirius) IS a bully. While I'm grammar nitpicking, the story
tells us that James WAS a bully. The point is, that at some point
James saw that petty schoolboy bullying would not carry him far in
real life, and he changed his ways. That explains why everyone, near
the end of his school career and in his later life thought so highly
of him. Short version, he wised up and grew up.

I will also re-enforce what some one else said on the subject of
bullies in school. Frequently they are very popular and priviledge
students. They are the star of the football team. They may have rich
parents. They are probably good looking and can afford nice clothes.
In short, they tend to be the popular kids. 

In reality, they are the generic suburban middle-class mass market
high-consumer 'Pop' culture kids, and god have mercy on anyone who
dares not to conform to that perfect 'Pop' image. Short version, 'That
which does not validate me, is not valid'.

I always found it very odd, when the jocks are picking on the nerds,
there never seems to be a teacher around, but the minute a nerd
retaliates and defends himself, the teacher seem to come flying out of
the woodwork. Highschool has to be the strangest most disfunctional
yet supported and encouraged social structure on earth. 

Sorry for the rant, but I couldn't help myself.

Steve/bboyminn