Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...)

[phoenixgod2000]

No: HPFGUIDX 130149


> Betsy Hp:
> I was replying more to Lupinlore's implication that Harry was well 
> out of the fight until mean old Dumbledore pulled him in.  But if 
> you're talking an actual draft notice you'll need to point out an 
> actual WW army.  IOW, I doubt Lily or James or Sirius or Lupin 
> received any draft papers either.

But they all volunteered. Harry did too and was turned down. That 
pretty much ends their wartime authority imo.  
> 
> And since Occlumency was an actual lesson under an actual professor 
> and assigned by the actual headmaster of an actual school, Harry 
was 
> indeed under an obligation to behave like an actual student.

Not when the lessons are outside the normal curriculm. But I was also 
a notoriously anti-authoritarian teen :) that could be tainting my 
opinion.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> Here's where I go, "Awwww, poor baby Potter having to operate with 
> only vague threats and shadowy warnings.  Life is soooo hard for 
> you," with little to no pity since the prophecy Dumbledore has been 
> acting under is pretty much a vague hope and shadowy warnings.  
> Welcome to a semi-realistic battle field, kid.  The enemy won't be 
> wearing black hats and he sure as hell ain't sharing his plans with 
> you. 

I agree that the enemy doesn't do that. Seems to me thats a good 
reason to share as much information as humanly possible between 
allies. Knowledge is always better than Ignorance.  I understand why 
Harry couldn't be told everything and I think so did Harry. Still 
there was a pretty wide gulf between the amount of information that 
DD could have shared safely and did share. As he freely admits at the 
end of the book.
 
> I'll also posit that Dumbledore may not have had an exact "why".  I 
> don't think he knew exactly how Voldemort would choose to attack 
> Harry, he just had the knowledge that Voldemort had realized there 
> was a mental link.  

He didn't seem all that surprised the Voldemort went after the 
prophecy. I think he forsaw exactly what Voldemort wanted and how he 
would try to get it. 

> Betsy Hp:
> Actually, I thought Snape was strangely *supportive* of Harry 
> throughout the lessons.  He didn't do anything with the majorly 
> embarrassing information he culled from Harry's mind. 

How was he going to bring that up without blowing his cover? I think 
if he could have he certainly would have used it against Harry. This 
is after all a guy who made a specific point to mock a fourteen year 
olds teeth.

 He didn't get 
> upset when Harry invaded his mind, he even *praised* Harry for it.

There were more than than a few insults flying from Snapes mouth on 
various occasions. He also specifically designed a cover that would 
publiclly humiliate Harry. he didn't need to do that. combined with 
the invasive nature of the lessons and the personal animosity between 
them I don't see how the lessons could have ended any differently. 
Even without Voldemort's influence.

<shrug> I think there probably is a bit of both of our POVs in the 
lessons and we are both just focusing on the parts that reinforce our 
beliefs.

> Betsy Hp:
> *sigh*  Okay.  If that's how you want to see it, if you want to 
> completely ignore the murderous and animalistic rage that swept 
> through Harry whenever Dumbledore *did* look him in the eye,

Yes, because their certainly aren't a million ways around that. I 
don't know, how about using a calming potion to keep Harry from 
flying off the handle, his giant magical bird's chirp of peace to 
keep Voldie out (you think he would be able to possess Harry around a 
phoenix?), telling what you know to Harry *after* you put him in a 
full body bind, or hell, using Dobby and pad of Notebook paper. Harry 
can still read, right? 

I just don't buy that DD's only option was deeply invasive lessons 
with a teacher Harry hates. It's just...implausible. 

>the 
> obvious manuvering Dumbledore had to do to keep the Ministry as out 
> of Hogwarts as possible, fine.

Yeah, that was all for Harry and not to preserve his own power or for 
the greater good of the war (I'm glad he did, but that wasn't 
designed to help Harry. It was designed to protect the institution he 
loved). And he didn't even do a very good job of it since all his 
authority was snatched out from under his nose.

 I suppose 
> we'll have to ignore Dumbledore's defense of Harry keeping him out 
of 
> Azkaban and in Hogwarts at the beginning of OotP,

Was that the time where he showed up, didn't look or speak to harry, 
saved him and then left right away without saying hi? Not what I 
would call the greatest trust building exercise I've ever seen.

 and Dumbledore's 
> sacrifice of his headmaster position to once again keep Harry in 
> Hogwarts in the middle of OotP too.

A good point. I always liked that scene. Best DD scene in the book. 
Maybe one of the best in the series.

   And yes, if *all* of those 
> factors and incidents are removed, Dumbledore was shockingly lazy 
and 
> mean.  

I knew you would see it my way ;)

(We'll do best to ignore the many times Dumbledore has saved 
> Harry's life as well.  That might just confuse the issue.)

Are we also forgetting all the times Harry has saved the day or the 
school or someones life so that we can pretend that Harry is just 
another teenager who needs to be sheltered from the badness of the 
world. That could also confuse the issue and make Dumbledore look, 
well, bad.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> I can see your point here, Phoenixgod.  And it's unfortunate that 
> Dumbledore was *unable* to approach Harry and only Snape had the 
> ability to help Harry.  I think Dumbledore hoped that the DA club 
> (the equivalent of a junior Order) would keep Harry occupied and 
give 
> him a sense of accomplishment.  

It also struck me as odd that if he wanted to give Harry a normal 
teenagers life for one more year, why not make him a prefect. his 
reasoning always seemed off to me, but a relatively minor off 
compared to other more glaring issues I have.


> Betsy Hp:
> So you wouldn't mind the thought that your greatest enemy had total 
> access to your mind?  And could make you feel or do things against 
> your will? 

I'm a bad example. I would have learned Occulomency but I would also 
be Animagus by this book :)  As for the connection, if I thought I 
could get more positve than negative out of the deal I wouldn't shut 
it down. hell, I would focus on Legimency so I could start making V 
do things. that would end the war quick.

 I would add that the dreams provided Harry with a lot of 
> *false* information.

None of that was known at the time. Only in hindsight was it 
realized. up till that point his dreams and scar had led him true.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> So answer me this, why didn't McGonagall do anything?  Or 
Flitwick?  
> Or Sprout?

Maybe they didn't know the counter charm or realize that harry's 
broom was charmed and it wasn't just a first time quiddich player 
screwing up due to nerves.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> Rather than get into a symantics argument I'll reword.  Harry needs 
> to learn from and make amends for his mistakes.  As Dumbledore has 
> (and is probably still) doing.  As Snape has been doing (IMO) for 
> five books.  I'm not saying Harry has commited a great and horrible 
> sin for which he must crawl through broken glass.  A simple apology 
> to Ron and the others would go a long way, I think.

I agree. He should definitely thank the others for following him into 
battle.

  I don't even 
> expect an apology to Snape (though a thank you for saving my life. 
> Again. would be nice).

Maybe. Although I personally thank that saving Harry is the least 
Snape could do considering how much crap he gives the kid. It 
balances out imo.

  Only then will Harry be able to grow, I 
> think.  And maybe he'll do a bit more conferring with others and a 
> little less rushing in.

Definitely agree.

 
> Betsy Hp:

> The loss of Sirius was a strong blow to Harry, and that is probably 
> the worst thing that happened.  But Harry, though important of 
> course, is not, at this time, the most important member of the 
> Order. 

We disagree once again. Seems to me that by defintion the guy who can 
win the war is the most important one and when you weapon is a living 
breathing person with feelings, its best not to leave them a wreck. 

Also, there is a reason that a huge number of fan fics start out year 
six with Harry bitter and disillsioned with DD. Because that is an 
outcome that could easily occur. It won't thanks to author fiat but 
Dumbledore doesn't have that knowledge. You are right, it wasn't as 
bad as it could have been but it could have been a prophecy ending 
catastrophe. and it would have been all because DD wouldn't share 
information.

> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Dumbledore, IMO, did not change a bit in OotP.

I still say that before OOTP Dumbledore was shown to deeply respect 
Harry's abilities and accomplishments. I cannot square the actions of 
that man with the coward that I saw in OOTP. I mean for gods sake, he 
sent Harry back in time! two years ealier. It doesn't make any sense 
to me that the man who could do that was unable to do better in this 
book.

  He kept a secret he 
> told Harry he was going to keep in PS/SS. 

And he should have when Harry was eleven. Things changed. I think we 
are going to have to agree to disagree. I don't see either of us 
budging much.

phoenixgod2000