New LOON. Was Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...)

Tue Jun 7 02:16:14 UTC 2005

No: HPFGUIDX 130210

O-kay.

She did it.

Betsy has impressed the socks off me with this post. Her other ones are very
good, but in this one she went and retrieved canon from three books to
support an interpretation of magical instruction and its application in the
comparison of two separate "special lesson" styles provided to Harry, and
their efficacy. Wow. This sort of fanatical adherence to canon--the
simultaneous subjectivity of the chase of a good theory, along with the
objectivity of the written word--is the sort of schizophrenia L.O.O.N.s* are
made of. So...

Betsy, if you are not already a L.O.O.N.**, I recognize you as a sister on
the basis of your lunatic attention to canon detail and the skillfull
braiding of same into a coherent pattern. An owl will be along shortly to
give you the password to the special wing of the library.

~Amanda, founding L.O.O.N.

*League Of Obsessive Nitpickers, whose devotion to canon detail puts them in
a class (and only *sometimes* a padded room, thank you) by themselves.
**Our first president, Joywitch, accidentally used the L.O.O.N. records as
tinder when trying to prepare a cooking fire in a hurry when a preschool
field trip strayed too near her cave; they have not yet been reconstructed.

----- Original Message -----
From: "horridporrid03" <horridporrid03 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 5:24 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long)
(was:Snape the Zen Master...)

> >>Nora:
> <snip>
> >A Zen master gives a student something that's very productive to
> think about and go on.<
> <snip>
>
> >>Lupinlore:
> >I actually discussed this very subject recently with a Buddhist
> monk I know.
> <snip>
> >He said of the whole Occlumency scene that he found it all very
> silly.  The two instructions Snape gave, "Clear your mind"
> and "Master yourself" were essentially worthless.  The first (once
> again in his belief) takes years to learn how to do effectively, and
> the second takes ten thousand lifetimes.<
> <snip>
>
> Betsy Hp:
> Honestly, I think we're looking in the wrong direction if we compare
> Occlumency with Zen or the ilk.  I remember reading a review that
> compared the magic of the Harry Potter world to the magic of the
> imagination.  I think that's a more proper direction to look.
> Because from the very beginning we are told that the magic of the WW
> works because the wizard or witch *believes* it will work.
>
> Remember what Molly first tells Harry when he's trying to get onto
> Platform 9 3/4 :
>
> "All you have to do is walk straight at the barrier between
> platforms nine and ten.  Don't stop and don't be scared you'll crash
> into it, that's very important.  Best do it at a bit of a run if
> you're nervous." (SS paperback p.93)
>
> She specifically tells Harry that it's "very important" that he not
> believe he's going to crash into the barrier.  Harry even closes his
> eyes so he won't see himself crash.  Now, there may be some Zen-like
> aspects to the idea that believing something allows you to do it (I
> know nothing about Zen), but I don't think that was the thrust of
> JKR's vision regarding the magic of the WW.  In order to enter the
> WW Harry has to *believe* in magic, otherwise the magic doesn't
> work.  I think this idea is more in line with Peter Pan's lessons in
> flying than in any real world meditation techniques.
>
> So I think that best way to measure the efficacy of Snape's methods
> for teaching Occlumency is to compare them with Lupin's methods for
> teaching the Patronus. That way we're staying within the world JKR
> has created and the rules she has given us.
>
> If we take a look at the instructions Lupin gave Harry for the
> Patronus lessons we'll see that Lupin doesn't give Harry any good
> advice as far as *how* to produce the mental state that allows one
> to conjure a Patronus.  The first direction comes after Harry asks
> how to conjure a Patronus.
>
> "With an incantation, which will work only if you are concentrating,
> with all your might, on a single, very happy memory." (PoA
> scholastic hardback p.237)
>
> After Harry tries and fails, Lupin gives more advice.
>
> "You might want to select another memory, a happy memory, I mean, to
> concentrate on.... That one doesn't seem to have been strong
> enough...." (ibid p.239)
>
> Again Harry fails, and Lupin gives further instruction:
>
> "Ready?" [...] "Concentrating hard?  All right -- go!"  (ibid p.241)
>
> In the end, Harry doesn't produce a really strong Patronus against
> the boggart dementor.  He does produce something against the Draco!
> Dementor, but Lupin quickly tells him that it only worked *because*
> he wasn't going up against a real dementor [ibid p.263]. Which holds
> true.  Harry fails when he first goes up against real dementors.
> [ibid p.383]  The only reason Harry *does* finally produce a
> Patronus is because of the paradox of time travel.
>
> "I knew I could do it this time," said Harry, "because I'd already
> done it.... Does that make sense?" (ibid p.412)
>
> Now lets compare Lupin's lessons with Snape's.  There are some
> obvious differences in that whereas before Harry was the eager
> student and Lupin the reluctant teacher, Harry is now quite a
> reluctant student.  (I'm hard pressed to figure out Snape's mindset
> here.  He says he's not that eager to teach Harry, but he certainly
> doesn't try and talk Harry out of learning, as Lupin does several
> times.)
>
> Here's Snape's first actual instructions:
>
> "You may use your wand to attempt to disarm me, or defend yourself
> in any other way you can think of," said Snape
> [...]
> "I am about to attempt to break into your mind," said Snape
> softly.  "We are going to see how well you resist.  I have been told
> that you have shown aptitude at resisting the Imperius Curse.... You
> will find that similar powers are needed for this.... Brace
> yourself, now.... Legilimens!"  (OotP scholastic hardback p.534)
>
> Harry fails in his first attempt and Snape gives further instruction.
>
> "You let me get in too far.  You lost control."
> [...]
> "You managed to stop me eventually, though you wasted time and
> energy shouting.  You must remain focused.  Repel me with your brain
> and you will not need to resort to your wand." (ibid p.535)
>
> Harry asks for more instruction on (I assume) repelling Snape with
> his brain.
>
> "Now, I want you to close your eyes."
> [...]
> "Clear your mind, Potter," said Snape's cold voice.  "Let go of all
> emotion...."
> [...]
> "You're not doing it, Potter.... You will need more discipline than
> this.... Focus now...."
> [...]
> "Let's go again... on the count of three... one -- two -- three --
> Legilimens!" (ibid)
>
> Already, in the very first lesson, Snape appears to be giving more
> instruction than Lupin did, at least as far as the mental discipline
> required.  Snape refers back to a type of magic Harry has already
> mastered, and he talks Harry through clearing his mind.  Whereas
> Lupin's advice really came down to "like that only happier!"
>
> The lesson continues for a bit and Snape is very unhappy with
> Harry's inability to empty himself of emotion.  Then there's the
> minor breakdown when Harry realizes that his dreams have been taking
> place at the DoM and Snape realizes (maybe the first to do so) that
> Harry has been receiving dreams from Voldemort.  But the interesting
> thing, to me anyway, is that Snape gives Harry a homework assignment
> working on the very thing Harry has said he's having a hard time
> with... emptying himself of emotion.
>
> "You are to rid your mind of all emotion every night before sleep --
> empty it, make it blank and calm, you understand?"
> [...]
> "And be warned, Potter... I shall know if you have not practiced..."
> (ibid p.538)
>
> I find this interesting because though Harry never produces a strong
> Patronus with Lupin because, as per Lupin, his happy thought isn't
> happy enough, Lupin doesn't assign any kind of homework to Harry at
> all.  If Lupin, who we all agree is a great teacher, *doesn't*
> assign homework, I think it reflects well on Snape that he *does*
> assign Harry homework.  Snape has identified where Harry is the
> weakest and he attempts to have Harry exercise this one area so that
> he becomes stronger.  The problem isn't Snape's instructions, it's
> Harry's lack of discipline.
>
> I've read *tons* of posts that talk about how hard it is to empty
> your mind, but isn't it just as hard, or nearly as hard, to think of
> a happy thought when you're in the midst of a clinical depression
> (which is essentially the affect dementors have on people)? And not
> just a happy thought, but a truly *powerful* happy thought?  For
> that matter, how hard must it be to be faced by your absolute worst
> fear and figure out someway to make it silly?  And yet that sort of
> mental discipline is expected of third years in JKR's world.
>
> In fact the kind of mental discipline that can make a brick wall
> just go away is expected of children younger than eleven (Ginny gets
> through the barrier and I believe she's only ten at the time).  Of
> course, JKR isn't really expecting the rules of her world to
> translate to ours.  (I don't recommend anyone close their eyes and
> run at a brick wall.)  Just as the rules of Peter Pan's world don't
> translate to ours, either.  (Ditto to jumping off the barn roof
> while thinking gleefully of mermaids.)
>
> But working *within the rules of JKR's world* I think Snape, though
> asking a lot of Harry, was not asking the impossible.  And I imagine
> that if Harry is ever to learn Occlumency we will find him sitting
> in his bed every evening focusing on emptying his mind of all
> emotion.  And I expect Harry will manage it, too.  (With a pinch of
> fairy dust, of course. <g>)
>
> Betsy Hp
>
>
>
>
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