Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...)

[nrenka]

No: HPFGUIDX 130212

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" 
<horridporrid03 at y...> wrote:

> So I think that best way to measure the efficacy of Snape's methods 
> for teaching Occlumency is to compare them with Lupin's methods for 
> teaching the Patronus. That way we're staying within the world JKR 
> has created and the rules she has given us.

Okay--we have two massively different things. :)

<snip canon for Lupin's Patronus lessons>

First of all, *there is an incantation* that one must use.  There's 
no 'Expecto Patronum!' focus-word for Occlumency.

> Already, in the very first lesson, Snape appears to be giving more 
> instruction than Lupin did, at least as far as the mental 
> discipline required.  Snape refers back to a type of magic Harry 
> has already mastered, and he talks Harry through clearing his 
> mind.  Whereas Lupin's advice really came down to "like that only 
> happier!"

I don't think that Snape ever really gives any information on how to 
clear your mind.  He says 'focus!' and all of that, but none of that 
gives Harry any clue as to what to really do.  Focus on what?  How do 
you clear your mind out?  Part of the essence of the problem is that 
Occlumency doesn't hinge upon one thing in the way that a Patronus 
does.

All you need for a Patronus is a focus upon a happy memory.  This is 
tricky (as we see), but is a goal in big flashing neon lights.  In 
contrast, clearing your mind is a goal of absence, and you run into 
the white elephant problem.  (Try not to think of white elephants 
right now.  See?)

A Patronus has this very specific goal.  Occlumency has a nebulous, 
difficult goal, and is more a state of being than a momentary 
expenditure of effort.

> I've read *tons* of posts that talk about how hard it is to empty 
> your mind, but isn't it just as hard, or nearly as hard, to think 
> of a happy thought when you're in the midst of a clinical 
> depression (which is essentially the affect dementors have on 
> people)? And not just a happy thought, but a truly *powerful* happy 
> thought?  For that matter, how hard must it be to be faced by your 
> absolute worst fear and figure out someway to make it silly?  

No. :)

In part, it's because a happy memory has to be pulled out of you but 
is then projected outwards, into a physical manifestation, something 
that you can see.  Clearing your mind is a purely internal thing, and 
takes far, far more getting together with yourself than anything that 
goes outward.  Harry can make a Patronus under intense pressure, but 
I don't think he's shown himself able to do Occlumency under the same.

> But working *within the rules of JKR's world* I think Snape, though 
> asking a lot of Harry, was not asking the impossible.

I don't think he was asking the impossible.  I think he was going 
about it in a way that takes a lot longer for the student to master, 
and is decidedly unhelpful.  No supplementary *exercises* with 
feedback involved, just vague instructions.  No meditation, no 
calming exercises, no puzzle solving, nothin'.  Just hit the kid and 
expect him to respond.

-Nora is admittedly biased, but does know at least a something about 
clearing one's mind and how to teach it