Mental Discipline in the WW

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 130274

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at y...> wrote:
> We have debated all sides of the Occlumency situation.  Whoever we 
> blame for the failure of Harry to learn Occlumency, I think that we
> can all agree that Occlumency is important skill to have when 
> battling the Dark Lord.  I think that that is the main thing that 
> JKR wants us to remember.  

bboyminn:

Well, I sort of agree and sort of disagree; how that for firm commitment?

The lessons with Snape were a failure, and we can debate the finer
points of why, whose fault, etc..., but Occlumency itself, in the
broader picture, was not a failure. Once he is no longer blinded by
his animosity toward Snape, Harry will realize 'Hey, I can do this',
and he can.

>From very early on we see indications that Harry can block memories he
doesn't want people to see, and he managed to do it in a variety of
ways from defensive spell, to blocking spells, to flat out refusal to
allow the images to be seen. 

As should be obvious from my past posts that I believe Snape
approached the lessons all wrong, though that is not unexpected given
the general relationship between Snape and Harry. Others have argued
that perhaps there really is no way to learn this except by try, try,
try, and try again. That perhaps the process is so internal that it
somewhat defies explanation. None the less, I have to believe that any
competent teacher can see that Snape is working against himself, and
is intentionally or unintentionally subverting the process. 

While the 'try and try again' method may be the only way to learn,
Snape creates an atmosphere and uses a general method that is counter
productive, and no one will ever sway me from that position. When
Harry does block a memory a good teacher wouldn't belittle his
student, he would say 'Well done, you successfully block a memory you
don't want me to see, but you have to learn to stop all memories even
when you don't care if I see them, or when you yourself do want to see
them. You've got the basic idea, now we need to refine it'. Harry gets
encouragement for his success, and an explanation of how and where he
needs to proceed from their.

Shaun has pointed out before that he had a very Snape like teach who
was extremely strict and demanding, but as brutally as this teacher
may have demanded success, I suspect he also gave his student the
tools to succeed. So, it's not necessarily Snape hard and direct
no-nonsense approach that I object to, it the fact that Snape doesn't
give Harry the tools and atmosphere that support learning. There is a
big difference in being strict and demanding for it's own sake, and
being stict and demanding toward a productive goal. I don't off-hand
remember the subject that Shaun's teacher taught, but it seems like it
might have been one of those subjects that students univerally hate
and resist when they are young, but greatly appreciate when they are
older. So this teacher may have fiercely demanded success because he
knew the reward for his work lay far down the road.

Regarding the second aspect of the lesson, the dreams, 'Calm down' and
'clear your mind' are near impossible tasks, but there are very common
techinques that are well known and thousands of year old that Snape
could have given to Harry.

As far as the classes themselves, I think Harry was as curious as
Snape to see the cascade of general memories that came from Harry's
mind. It's hard to stop something that you are interested in seeing.
But whenever a personal memory came to Harry, he was able to cut if
off immediately. Plus it's hard to block your dreams when the very
person who it telling you to clear you mind, is also the person who is
aggitating and aggrivating you to the point where, even for someone
who knew how to do it, it would have been a difficult task.


> Tonks_op continues:
>
> Closing your mind, controlling your emotions to battle the 
> forces of darkness within yourself and within the world is an 
> important skill to have. So even though we are all left to debate 
> long into the night the ramifications ... the one thing that we 
> are all left with is the undisputed knowledge that Occlumency is an 
> important skill for a young wizard like Harry to learn. ... We have 
> all *gotten it*, even if Harry didn't.
> 
> Tonks_op

bboyminn: 

I think in a somewhat spiritual or deeper 'life' sense, you are right.
This internal struggle against outside influences is part of the deep
message and symbolism of Occlumency. Be a free thinker, don't let
others get into your mind and influence you with their own thoughts.

>From a more practical perspective, I think it is a case of JKR
introducing a concept with in a limited context that will have greater
story significants in the future. Is there really anyone here who
thinks Harry's skill at Occlumency won't be tested and proven at some
point in the future? The immediate context is for Harry to be so
aggitated by circumstance and so aggrivated by Snape, that he can't
block the dream that JKR needs him to see in order for the story to go
where it needs to go.

In a somewhat broader context, Snape and Harry learn things about each
other that they otherwise would never of been able to know. I think
away from the fanned flames of anger, they will both realize that they
have come to a deep understanding of each other, and that in turn will
prehaps bring about a reduced level of hostility between them. Though
I suspect in the short term, the flames will burn hotter before they
actually mellow. I also wonder if the lessons weren't the seed for a
future 'show down' or 'clear of the air' between Snape and Harry. A
clearing of the air that will try to resolve increased hostility with
the deeper understanding.

So, I think Occlumency is one of those things that goes beyond the
immediate plot need, and will have ramifications large and small in
assorted other areas of the general plot and in Harry's life. And
further, since I can see several potential payoffs in the future, I'm
not sure I can rate is as a failure.

Just some general thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn