Mental Discipline in the WW: A Comparison (long) (was:Snape the Zen Master...)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 130327

>> Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
The magic is, in and of itself, the exceptional aspect of the story, 
and should be treated as such.  (I think there's a great deal of 
symbolism to the magic -- but it's not something we can recreate in 
the real world, no matter how detailed the Hogwarts lesson we peek 
in on.)


Alla:

I am sure Nora will produce much more eloquent reply, I will just 
make a brief comment - you said it yourself - there IS a great deal 
of symbolism to Magic and I do treat Occlumency as a symbolic type, 
not "rechnical one" so to speak since it is even said  that 
occlumency is an "obscure branch of magic".

I think JKR called it magic simply to make it sound more fun, 
frankly. :-)


>> Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
So, as far as magical lessons are concerned, we can argue teacher 
methodology as far as attitude, etc. are concerned, but we have a 
harder time arguing lesson content. e.g. We can say that Snape 
treated Neville badly in his first ever potion lesson, but we can't 
say Snape was wrong about adding nettles.  The first is universal, 
the second is particular to the WW. 

Alla:

Oh, I am glad we at least agree that methodology and attitude ARE 
universal and Rowling is not writing about aliens race. :-)


I do think that Magical world IS a muggle world in disguise in very 
many things and magic added simply to make it more fun, but people 
in WW world do not become that different from us simply because they 
are more physically resilient and know how to do magic.



Betsy Hp:
Then show me.  Show me examples of detailed instructions in magical 
lessons that would back up the idea that Snape didn't give Harry 
full instruction in Occlumency.  I've given several examples where 
mental discipline needs to be exercised in order to complete a 
magical task and very little detail was given.  Give me an example 
where a Hogwarts professor sets out the kind of mental exercises you 
>feel are necessary for a successful Occlumency class.

Alla:

My argument is that we have NOT seen any kind of lessons which could 
be analogised to Occlumency yet.

As to examples you gave earlier - let's take going through barrier 
for example. Sure you need to concentrate, BUT no matter how good 
you are you CAN be prevented from going  through the barrier, as 
Dobby showed us in CoS. It seems to me that if you learned the 
Occlumency , you know it, although you can probably be outdone by 
good Legilimenc.

Anyways, as I said I don't buy that one as direct analogy

Betsy: 
Because, yes, the WW is very like our own.  But not when it comes to 
magic.  We can make cars go.  We cannot make them fly.  There's an 
exception.  We can stand over a broom and say "Up!" with a great 
deal of authority, but the broom will not leap into our hands.  
There's an exception.  We can try desperately to will ourselves out 
of a clinical depression with one happy thought, but I think most 
mental health professionals will say that probably won't work.  
There's an exception. 

Alla:

The cars in our world do NOT fly, period, same with flying on the 
brooms, I think :-), BUT as Nora showed in her previous posts, there 
are mental relaxation techniques in muggle world which COULD be 
looked at as similar to Occlumency.

As you said though, hopefully our theories will be proved or 
disproved in HBP , if Harry will indeed learn Occlumency  woith 
Dumbledore. Then  hopefully we will see how good or not Snape was in 
doing the teaching. :-) 


Just me of course,

Alla.