Harry had to fail - Harry's Tragic Flaws

[phoenixgod2000]

No: HPFGUIDX 130861


> Julie Rice <julierice8 at y... wrote:
> <snip> 
> <JKR had to have Harry fail in Book 5 so that the
> series was more realistic.<
 
> <snip>
> <He had to fail in book 5 so that we as readers would
> actually wonder if he will make it at the end of book
> 7.  If he did just fine in book 5 and book 6, there's
> no way he could fail in book 7.  I guess he could, but
> we would all hate the series because "it's all about
> the ending" (a quote from a recent Johnny depp movie).<

Phoenixgod2000 Reply to Julie Rice: I agree with you. Harry had to 
lose in OOTP because it is supposed to heighten the tension for the 
later books. If all Harry ever does is win then the story is going 
to get stale. The drama is lessened.

That having been said, I think the book ultimately failed at that 
because the events and mistakes did not flow logically, at least for 
me. I've talked about it with a few other list members about it and 
I think we came to the conclusion that Rowling so needed the story 
to get to a certain point by the end of the book she rushed the 
characters and warped them a little from their previous actions in 
the other book, to the point where they became OOC so that they 
would make the mistakes she needed them to make so that the actions 
she needed taken were for the good of the plot. I've called it 
Author's Fiat in the past because the characters just do what she 
needs them to do instead of actions that arose organically out of 
the personalities and histories that are previously established.

Honestly, Ron, Draco and Snape were the only three characters that 
seemed in character to me--at least to the way I have always 
interepreted them.  Well, them and Dobby :)
 
> Jen replies:
> I completely agree with this opionion and wanted to expand on it a 
> little.  I think that Harry will also continue to fail through 
HBP, 
> wherein he will eventually learn the lessons he needs to defeat 
> Voldemort in Book 7.  OotP was the first book that really showed 
us all of Harry's flaws, which I think is why so many peopl finished 
> that book disliking him. 

Reply to Jen: I disagree with you Jen because I think OOTP is going 
to be Harry's lowest point in terms of his personal life. while the 
books and the war might grow darker I don't think Harry is going to 
sink any lower.  HBP is going to be a story about Harry pulling 
himself back up with book seven sealing the deal.  Harry needs a win 
bad in HBP and I think he is going to get it.  The way I see the 
story going is that end of OOTP caused Harry to lose a bit of his 
edge and nerve (second guessing himself) and the HBP is going to be 
about the recovery of his essential Harry Potterness (at least 
that's what I think).


>Harry is:  
 > *Short-tempered:  I think that Harry's tendency to fly off the
> handle may soon alienate some of his friends, or may land him in 
big 
> trouble.  

Actually, I would argue that Harry is the opposite of short 
tempered. How often before OOTP have we seen him lose his temper? 
Not often, iirc.  Harry is a slow boiler and OOTP pushed him to his 
boiling point.  Well, that and puberty. Thats it. He's much more 
even tempered in all the rest of the books. 

>More telling is 
> his inability to control his temper around Umbridge, even though 
he 
> was specifically warned by McGonagall on more than one occasion to 
> stay quiet.  

McG's advice is terrible in the book. For someone who's taught for 
forty years she doesn't seem to have a great grasp of teenage 
psychology. Her punishments and scoldings made things worse for 
Harry. Not better. It made him feel like he had no one to turn to 
which led to his desperation at the end of the book. Besides, 
standing up and telling the truth may not have been smart, but it 
was moral. and it had nothing to do with his temper.

> *Arrogant:  What really surprised me about Harry in OotP was his 
> outright disregard for the advice his friends and mentors gave him 
> because he either felt he was entitled to something or simply felt 
he 
> was above it.   

I don't think there is any evidence of Harry being arrogant and 
certainly occulomency wasn't part of it. Harry didn't want to learn 
it because he was curious, not arrogant. And since the information 
that was being concealed was about him, I would say he was entitled 
to it.

I also think the way he handled the DA is the best example of 
Harry's lack of arrogance.
 
> *Self-pitying:  Some of you may disagree with me here, or may 
think 
> Harry is entitled to feel this way given all of the tragedy he has 
> seen in his formative years.  <snip>  I think there are more 
productive ways to 
> deal with his feelings and he needs to overcome this flaw in order 
to 
> concentrate on what's ahead. 

I agree with you that Harry could deal with things in a more 
constructive way but thats true of everyone in OOTP. Snape, Sirius, 
DD, Lupin, Molly, Ron, Hermione, Cho, Lucius, Draco, and Voldemort 
all could have dealt with things on a more constuctive level.

Pretty much everyone but Luna. Luna was very constructive at all 
times in the story.

 For those who pity him as well and
> feel that he is justified, I give you Neville as an example, who 
has 
> had his share of tragedies and has never pulled the "You
> don't 
> understand/Woe is me" card that Harry pulled with his friends on 
> multiple occassions in OotP. 

First of all, Neville hasn't suffered more than Harry, and secondly 
Neville has a crapload of his own problems to deal with. He is 
deeply self pitying, but his self esteem is so low that he doesn't 
bother complaining to anyone because he doesn't think it'll do any 
good. 
 
> *Impulsive:  When Harry thought that Sirius was being tortured in 
> OotP, he was ready to do just about anything to get there and save 
> him.  When he is placed in these situations he doesn't think
> about repercussions – at these times, Hermione has always been
> his grounding force, trying to make him stop and think first 
before  doing. But what happens if Hermione isn't there to slow him 
down?

Harry is impulsive but that quality has so far saved more lives than 
it has taken. His impulsivity has saved Sirius, Hermione, Ginny, and 
just about every other main character in the books at one point or 
another. On balance, I think Harry's instincts help far more than 
they hurt.
  
>And it's true
> that 
> at times that this can save the day  - but I don't think it 
> ultimately works in the context of defeating Voldemort. Voldemort 
> doesn't think with his heart because he doesn't have one.  He
> deals 
> in manipulation, torture, and ultimately, strategy.  Harry needs 
to 
> be able to think before dealing with him which leads to an 
nteresting 
> dilemma.  

Harry needs to think in order to reach the endgame with the big V, 
but ultimately harry is going to win through his passion and 
instincts. It's not going to come down to a duel or fight to the 
death. Its going to end because Harry is going to do something 
simple and instinctive. Something that voldemort couldn't have 
concieved of and that will be what spells his end. Harry is going to 
win because he is human and Voldemort isn't. I think if Harry 
becomes to much of a thinker he's going to lose some of his 
essential Harryness, which is a person who looks before he leaps 
because of his saving people thing. And thats why I like him!

phoenixgod2000