[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as father figure

[Amanda Geist]

No: HPFGUIDX 130939

What IS the world coming to, I'm combining responses.

(1) It was quite early this morning and I forgot to make another point to
Phoenixgod's post. Phoenixgod quite neatly made my own point for me and I
did not call it out.

Phoenixgod:

> The
> kind of tough uncompromising father that kids grow up to respect and
> understand do what they do out of love.

The whole point is, the children in the equation don't necessarily see that.
And we are seeing the relationship entirely through the child's eyes in this
case. The motivating factor for the adult is almost immaterial, for to a
child's perspective, all that matters or holds weight is the child's
reasoning and the child's perception--which are not mature enough to have
moved out of "victim" mode.

> they want their children to
> grow up strong and disciplined so they enforce that discipline until
> the child is ready to enforce that discipline on themselves.

And I submit that Snape wants Harry to be disciplined until he can grow to
discipline himself. And Harry has shown Snape precious little evidence that
he can. Nothing you have said so far is inapplicable to Snape; in fact, it's
a really good summary of what I think Snape is trying to do.

> When I was a teen I hated my father and we had
> a terrible relationship. I didn't understand what he was trying to
> do.

This is Harry now.

> I'm older and wiser now and I see more clearly. He might have
> been an ass sometimes, but he was an ass that had my best interest
> at heart and in the end I am better off for what my father did.

This is where I hope Harry will allow himself to be mature enough to
achieve.

> Snape doesn't have Harry's best interest at heart.

And this is the part I answered in my earlier post. Basically, (a) we don't
know that, and (b) even if we did, *Harry* is not mature enough to
understand what Snape is trying to do.

(2) Okay, Alla's turn. She (she?) said she was asking me a question and then
instead stated an opinion. I'll do my best.

Alla:

> In the post-OOP world, I am truly puzzled, Amanda, when anybody (
> not just you) starts arguing that Snape can have ANY kind of
> objectivity towards Harry.
>
> I think Dumbledore pretty much spelled it out for us:
>
> "But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too
> deep for healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome  his
> feelings about your father - I was wrong" - OOP, paperback, p.833.
>
> Now, of course you can argue that Dumbledore is wrong here. I myself
> had argued that on several occasions, BUT then I think the fair
> asumption would be  that Dumbledore can be wrong about the first
> part of the quote . You know, "I trust Severus Snape".
>
> If you don't argue that Dumbledore is wrong though, I think his
> words effectively foreclose ANY kind of objectivity that Snape can
> have towards Harry.

I don't think Dumbledore's wrong at all. I don't think Snape can overcome
his feelings about James. Dumbledore didn't say "Snape can't overcome his
feelings about *you* because you're James' son"--he said "about your
father."

I argue that Snape exhibits objectivity towards Harry -- as an example,
during the Occlumency lessons--especially after Harry "breaks into" Snape's
thoughts and sees some of Snape's memories. Harry, typical for his
perception, braces for a very personal response and instead meets a very
professional one. An objective one.

Snape's reaction after the Pensieve is an old and powerful reaction to
James. I think he would have thrown *anyone* out of his office who saw that.
It probably didn't help a damn bit that it was Harry--in fact, I saw this as
a betrayal of trust. Snape didn't remove his memories, lock them in a
cabinet, and set a spell on it. Snape is extending a trust to Harry to
behave like an adult and respect his limits--which Harry does not do. Harry
does not live up to Snape's expectations and behaves like a child, peeking
where he knew he was not wanted (and, if he were paying attention, where he
should have known might result in danger to himself and others).

And lastly, I think we are wrong to infer that Dumbledore knows everything
that happened with Harry, Snape, and the Pensieve. My personal thought is
that Snape did not tell Dumbledore what happened, because I can't imagine
Dumbledore would not have told Harry how wrong that was. I think Snape just
went to Dumbledore and said something like, "I'm sorry, every time I look at
Harry I see James and I just can't handle it, I can't keep teaching him,
it's giving me ulcers." I can't imagine Snape would want anyone to know any
more about his private humiliation; it was clearly painful to him and I
doubt he wanted to discuss it, even to the point of telling Dumbledore. SO,
what Dumbledore says to Harry may well be based on incomplete information.

Did that answer?

(3) Now to Karen:

> I myself view Sirius as more of the Cool Uncle figure, that relation
> who has been a little wild, might have a shady past or a background
> that any teenage boy would think is cool.

I think this is a very good perception and quite valid. And Sirius became
the "wilder" one of the pair. In fact, Harry's relationship with Sirius
underwent a little role-reversal in OoP, to where Harry was behaving more
like the father, and Sirius more like the child chafing at restrictions. If
Sirius' response to Harry in the fire was not the lashing out of a petulant
child at a mean and obtuse authority figure, I don't know what it was.

(4) And Pippin, lovely Pippin:

> It would be nice if Harry had such a father in the same way it
> would be nice if Voldemort gave up seeking world domination
> and decided to devote his energies to becoming all-wizard
> Gobstones champion, ie, it would give the characters
> something to cheer about and completely spoil the story
> from the reader's point of view.
<snip>
> he has to winnow the good
> from the bad in all his father figures, Snape included.
>
> It's true that Snape doesn't love Harry -- but
> as every parent learns, parenting has to be done even when
> you don't feel loving, even when it's tedious, even when
> your kids remind you of  everything you hate.

> A good father would be as loving as Sirius without the inconstancy,
> as constant as Snape without the cruelty, as affectionate as Arthur
> without the passivity, as proactive as Dumbledore without the
> distance -- you get the idea.

I have nothing to add. But this was so well stated I just had to cheer
Pippin, and since I'm dutifully combining, I can surely add this onto the
bottom of a substantive post. As I've said to friends--good parenting is not
that you never want to throw your children out the window; it's not doing it
when you feel like it. Superb parenting is when they can't tell you feel
like it. Snape isn't a great father figure; but I think he quite effectively
fulfills the minimum qualifications: looking out for the child; trying to
keep the child safe until the child gets a clue; trying to give the child a
clue; being present in the child's life to fulfill those ends.

~Amanda, premier Snapologist