Snape as father figure

[phoenixgod2000]

No: HPFGUIDX 130959

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
wrote:
> Phoenixgod:
> 
> > The
> > kind of tough uncompromising father that kids grow up to respect 
and
> > understand do what they do out of love.
> 
> The whole point is, the children in the equation don't necessarily 
see that.
> And we are seeing the relationship entirely through the child's 
eyes in this
> case. The motivating factor for the adult is almost immaterial, 
for to a
> child's perspective, all that matters or holds weight is the 
child's
> reasoning and the child's perception--which are not mature enough 
to have
> moved out of "victim" mode.

phoenixgod200:

lets begin on a note of agreement. The book should come out 
tomorrow, right?  

Now onward to the arguing!

The motivating factor is everything when it comes to father 
figures.  Understanding the motivation is the key to coming to 
accepting/respecting your fathers actions. You move out of victim 
mode because you realize you were never the victim in the first 
place.  Harry *is* Snape's victim in a lot of ways (although not as 
much as Neville). He doesn't need to learn how to respect or 
understand him. What he needs is to learn how to stand up to the man 
and to let his petty actions roll off of his back. It's closer to 
what the child of an emotional abusive parent has to go through 
instead of the child of a strict but basically caring parent which 
seems to me what you're arguing.

To boil it down: The type of father figure a child comes to respect 
later in life is the kind of father who is tough but has your best 
interests at heart and not the kind of father who is tough but 
uninterested or actively antagonistic with his child. No one comes 
to respect the second type of father, they just come to endure him.

Guess which one I think Snape is :)  

> And I submit that Snape wants Harry to be disciplined until he can 
grow to
> discipline himself. And Harry has shown Snape precious little 
evidence that
> he can. Nothing you have said so far is inapplicable to Snape; in 
fact, it's
> a really good summary of what I think Snape is trying to do.
 
I agree that Harry is undisciplined and if you were to say that 
Snape is a representation of 'Authority' in the novel I wouldn't 
have any arguement with you other than what sort of authority he 
represents. But father figures are something different and I don't 
think Snape fits into that camp. To be honest, I don't even think 
that Dumbledore fits into that camp. When I talk about a father 
figure I am speaking of a more symbolic familial role for the 
character and neither Snape nor DD fit in my view. A generic 
authority figure yes, but not a father figure.

> Snape doesn't have Harry's best interest at heart.
 
> And this is the part I answered in my earlier post. Basically, (a) 
we don't
> know that, and (b) even if we did, *Harry* is not mature enough to
> understand what Snape is trying to do.
 
It seems pretty clear to me that Snape doesn't have Harry's best 
interests at heart. He does what he does out of obligation to 
Dumbledore and his understanding of what DD would want--ie, keeping 
the kiddies alive. And there certainly isn't any evidence that Snape 
knows the extent of the role Harry is to play in the coming 
conflict. I can't imagine he would ever have quit occulomency 
lessons if he did.

> I argue that Snape exhibits objectivity towards Harry -- as an 
example,
> during the Occlumency lessons--especially after Harry "breaks 
into" Snape's
> thoughts and sees some of Snape's memories. Harry, typical for his
> perception, braces for a very personal response and instead meets 
a very
> professional one. An objective one.

You think Snapes reaction was objective? You apparently operate 
under a different definition than I do. Objectivity is dispassionate 
and clear thinking which is pretty much the opposite of what Snape 
does.

phoenixgod2000, who totally knows he's going to catch crap from 
people for not thinking of DD as a father figure.