Snape as father figure (Continuing Saga of the Father Figure)

[unicorn_72]

No: HPFGUIDX 130992

 
> dan wrote<snipped>:
> Regardless of what Dumbledore knows, the point is that we readers
> don't know enough about why Snape put those memories into the 
pensieve
> - they are hardly the most compromising one's in terms of Snape
> alluded to spy role, are they? Unless they hide something like 
that,
> or his spy role has to do with his rivalry with the marauders.
> 
> The idea of the pensieve is associated with shame in this case -
> Snape's in the content and Harry's in the revelation about his 
father
> and his father's friends and in the prying into on discovery by 
Snape,
> and then Snape's again in that he is reminded that it was THIS 
memory
> he set aside (not a spy memory, say) which of course just directs 
the
> shame of both the original scene and the prying into it back on
> himself again.
> 
> So, if Snape is "stern, implacable" father figure, the motivating
> force and the connection with Harry seems to be shame.
> 

KarentheUnicorn's Reply (yes its long, so hex me):


First off Maybe we should change the Father Figure to Dominate Male 
Figure, I think that would appease a lot of people that take issue 
with the word Father.

A lot of people say Snape put that memory from the Occlumency scene 
there on purpose, but, I don't know, tis a good theory, but somehow 
the way the character of Snape appears to me, he is a person that 
values and wants Respect above everything else, perhaps he demands 
it in the classroom so much because it is possible something he 
never had. I don't think he would willingly let Harry see something 
that would so humiliate him, because he is demanding Sir/professor 
so much. And others have demanded it for him as well, Dumbledore and 
also I believe Molly also corrected Harry as well on that, wanting 
him to call Snape, Professor Snape. I can see why Dumbledore might 
do it, what is Molly's reason for doing it? I had not though of her 
as being so caught up in the sir, madam thing. She is in the Order, 
so, she must know quite a bit about Snape...meh..I guess that is 
stuff for later.

If we look at the situation with the pensive, and the comments by 
Sirius as to Snape being a little oddball, we are led to believe 
Snape was not respected by very many students, one also might wonder 
was he even respected among Slytherin...So, I would think, if he is 
the kind of person that needs respect very badly to validate 
himself, then having that authority stepped on, or in any way 
undermined can make him very upset and very stressed/unreasonable, 
even if it is in his own imagination.

I'll put my own self into this position; depending on who the person 
is, if said person Embarrasses or does something to publicly 
humiliate me, I get very hurt and defensive, I do know the 
difference between joking around and someone who is being 
crule...and I myself do remember the people that do those kinds of 
things to me. So, if I were to imagine myself in a situation like 
the pensive scene, I can see how I wouldn't exactly have James and 
Sirius on my christmas card list. I don't care if they are 16 year 
olds and just kids. Generally it has been my own personal experience 
those popular kids are the people that do the large amount of 
bulling.

So, even if Snape was a little git back then, could it not be said 
they pushed him even further to the...meh..'dark side' (LOL). Here 
we have James and Sirius, the most popular boys at school at the 
time, the hero's, all the girls swoon...cheer, want to be their 
girlfriend, Griffendor's to the max, everyones favorite, LOVE LOVE 
LOVE for them. Is it not possible that James/Sirius's actions 
towards Snape could easily have pushed him towards being in with 
Lucius/Voldemort's crowd? OK, look at it this way, James and Sirius 
are supposed to be the good guys/ heros, the people that do no 
wrong, to Snape, they would not appear to be good guys, now would 
they?? Who does one turn too, when noone believes you when you say 
they are not good guys or heros, who sucks in destressed kids who 
are the rejected...people like Lucius and Voldemort..of 
course...meh..thats my own theory...but anyway.

Plus I think a lot of people are thinking of Snape even in the 
pensive scene as Older Snape, if the scene is real, he's only around 
16, young, foolish, while he is a death eater, how old is he...late 
teens early twenty's...How many boys are wreckless and do foolish 
stuff at that age...sheash is their a % on that?? Is 'A Lot' a good 
estimate?

Now I remember reading either here or somewhere else, Snape was 
probably a little git then to, he deserved it. I will not really 
argue that so much, maybe he did. But, both Sirius and James 
attacked him, while James did most of it, Sirius was their to back 
James up. OK, I've also read a comment to the effect saying, well 
maybe Snape was tough and both were needed to handle him....hum, 
somehow that just doesn't jive well with me. Why would they attack 
him then?? If the scene is real, it didn't look like to me he was 
tougher. OK, I saw that once someone commented, Snape drew blood 
from James in the pensive scene, and it was said something to the 
affect he is obviously meaner because of that...um...I believe right 
before that the spell James used caused Snape to choke on soap suds, 
So, imagine yourself being held down, coking on soap suds you can't 
stop them....I believe choking is not exactly up their on the top 
ten of funny things to do to someone, I generally consider that just 
as violent as drawing blood...in this situation at least.
Now, as far as spying goes, I do remember the comment that I can 
give to Sirius, that Snape always followed them around, to get them 
in trouble. To go back to what I wrote about, Snape's feelings that 
James and Sirius are not good guys, it can easily be attributed to, 
he wanted to get them in trouble because he might have had the 
desire to show everyone they were not "Wonderful Good Guys"...

Now, we don't see Snape's actions, so, he was probably just as big 
of a git as James was, they were rivals so, one would view the other 
as pond scum, but we are talking about why Snape is the way he is 
and why he is a dominate figure in Harry's life, James the actual 
father is dead, so Harry needs substitute fathers...Snape is one, be 
it father, or just male figure.

I'm not in any way cuting Snape any slack here on how he treats 
children, but I will use the first scene we see Harry and Snape 
together in the classroom as an example. Snape is grilling Harry on 
what he knows. I am sure, Snape is aware of all the talk, the 
whispers about the boy who lived coming to school, so regardless of 
how he might feel about James. It can easily be seen as Snape really 
actually might want to see what the boy knows, or size him up to 
show the rest of the class, just because he is though of as 
something special, I want the rest of you to not be distracted 
by "famous potter" Let me show you how smart he really is..etc etc.

Now, Harry is thinking in his head in this scene, how does this man 
expect me to know the whole book already, well, sitting right beside 
you is Hermione G, she does, shes practicly jumping to answer 
Snape's question. Now, in my experience with school, some teachers 
never call on the person raising their hand, they get the person in 
the back sleeping, is that evil...meh, if you are the kid, yea.

So, the fact that Harry is sitting beside someone that knows the 
answers, one can easily think Snape might consider, well, another 
griffendor knows the answer, how come mr. famous doesn't.
If you move into this scene, then you will clearly see, Harry snarks 
back at Snape; Why don't you ask her...thus, drawing laughter from 
students....now, one can clearly imagine steam coming out of Snape's 
head at this point. Potter is telling me how to run my class and who 
to ask. One would imagine Snape would take away, 20 points, 10 
points in the least for this cheekie backtalk, and undermining his 
authority in front of other students....meh..no, he takes away one 
point....One might even imagine that, this sort of backtalk might be 
exactly how James might have talked to teachers at some point, or 
even from the first, Perhaps James made comments to make the class 
room errupt into giggles, this would obviously reinforce Snapes 
opinion of Harry being just like James.

Now, this is all wild speculation on my part, but, if you move 
further into the scene, we see, Neville screwing up, Snape turns on 
Harry and blames him saying something to the affect of, "Though he 
would make you look good if he got it wrong, did you?"

Ok...I'm torn between why this happens, I can see two reasons Snape 
has this reaction, well three, but I'll stick with the two. First, 
we clearly get Neville into the story now, if one imagines that 
Snape knows the profecy or part of it, then he knows Neville is the 
other boy. While, I can't see how he would think Harry would know 
who Neville is, their is a common thread here between the two boys 
that we are all aware of now, but at the time of reading the first 
book we were not. So if you go back and look at it now, their seems 
to be more going on with that comment that just a nasty teacher. 
Neville is second place, because of Harry...etc etc. So, its 
reinforcing Snapes idea that Harry wants to be better than Neville 
and everyone else.

Now, the other idea I have is, what if James did exactly this sort 
of thing in class with Snape, Did Slytherin and Griffendor have 
double potions together way back then, we might assume probably they 
did. Could James possibly have foiled a potion lesson for Snape in a 
similar manner by letting Snape screw up, or causing his lesson to 
fail in some way? So, again, Snape's opinion of Harry being like 
James is reinforced again....just on their first day together....

Again, all speculation on my part...meh..isn't this fun.

Obviously Snape is coming to the wrong theory about Harry, I don't 
give him any cookies for acting like a git....
If he is as I said, someone who wants respect so badly, and to have 
some little kid come in and screw up your day, and not to mention 
its the son of the guy who humilated you way back when, well, it is 
easy to see who he acts like a jerk, not an excuse, just a reasoning 
why.

Also I am reminded that Slytherin, before Harry came to school, was 
on top, they won the Quidditch cup a bunch of times in a row, did 
they also win the house cup too??? I can't remember, but I do 
remember the comment in the first book about Slytherin, sadly, I 
can't find it right now...So, Snape has been in first place for a 
while, one might imagine he is blaming Harry also for loosing him 
that dominate place on the Quidditch field, and possibly the house 
cup....meh...again, wild speculation on my part again.

Me thinks Snape needs a wakeup call, I imagine it might be coming in 
book 6....but again, that is pure wild speculation on my part...Can 
that be a good prediction for the next book. Professor Snape, Your 
wake up call has arrived! (laughs)


Wonders if anything I said amounts to anything, probably not, waits 
for answers in the next book...(bounces with excitment)

Karen