Sirius-Barty parallels / Poisoned Sirius (was:Re: Sirius as Father Figure...)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 130997

>>Betsy Hp:
<snip>
>However, I still have problems linking Sirius' behavior to being 
kept in the Black house alone.  For one thing it puts him in a weaker 
(character-wise) position than Barty Crouch, Jr.<

>>Alla:
>I am confused now. Are you saying that if out of two people who 
underwent through similar tragic circumstances only one person had 
depression as result of those circumstances, that makes such person 
to be the person of weaker character than the other?<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
Gosh, no!  I was using the word "character" to mean, "one of the 
persons of a drama or novel" rather than "moral excellence and 
firmness". (quoted from Webster's 9th New Collegiate Dictionary)

What I was suggesting is that if you have two characters jump from a 
great height (to use a highly simplistic example) and one is able to 
get up and keep running and the other is down for the count, the 
first is a stronger character within the story. More physical 
strength, greater athletic ability, etc.  And that it is strange for 
an author to make her villain stronger (in that way) than her hero.  
Especially when the villain and hero share such parallels, IMO.

>>Alla: 
>Right, so back to canon.  I don't see many parallels between  Barty 
Jr. and Sirius in a sense that Barty had just as many grounds to get 
depression as Sirius did.<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
The parallels I see are these:  Both boys were attractive, charming 
and smart.  Both boys come from pure-blooded families.  Both turn 
against, and are disowned by, those families. Sirius' name has been 
burnt off his family tapestry; Barty is publically disowned by Crouch 
at the conclusion of his trial. "You are no son of mine! [...] I have 
no son!" (GoF scholastic hardback p.596)  Both have support within 
those families (Sirius had his uncle, Barty his mother).  Both manage 
the impossible and escape from Azkaban.  Both are trapped in the 
family home they hate, unable to do anything in support of the cause 
they love.

>>Alla:
>Oh, and even if I were to concede that there are strong parallels 
between Barty Sr. and Sirius, which I don't ( I see some, but not 
that many), I would indeed argue that JKR shows  us Sirius as MUCH 
more resilient out of two.
>Sirius managed to get away from his family at sixteen, while Barty 
joined  Voldie and Co as young man.<

Betsy Hp:
Canon tells us that Barty was sent to Azkaban at the young age of 
nineteen.  Since he comes out of his home imprisonment fully 
knowledgable in the dark arts and quite comfortable casting 
Unforgivables I strongly suspect he learned these skills *prior* to 
getting caught at the Longbottom's.  Which would mean that he joined 
Voldemort's group at a younger age... maybe when he was sixteen?

>>Melanie:
>We are severly underestimating Sirius the man is incredibly clever.
Not only did he conceal the fact that he was infact an animagus, 
sneak into a castle, and escape Azkaban. All of this is just as 
interesting as the concealments that Barty Crouch did, inmho. So by 
you to say that Barty was in more of a sane mental state makes makes 
no sense to me.<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes, both men are quite clever and strong wizards.  But Barty is able 
to keep himself mentally together enough (while surrounded by 
evidence of those Death Eaters that walked free) to completely fool 
Dumbledore.  Sirius, on the other hand, can't seem to keep it 
together enough to not viciously attack Harry in a manner clearly 
designed to wound deeply, or to provide Harry a modicum of comfort 
when Harry's afraid he's going mad, or to not sabatoge the lessons 
Hrry desperatly needs before they even begin.

>>Melanie:
>I would argue that it is possible that he could be drugged or even 
that it's just that he wasn't trying to be clever in book five. Who 
was he trying fool? Not really anyone....<

Betsy Hp:
If Sirius is aware of his own depression, he's trying to (or should 
be trying to) fool Harry.  A parent shouldn't (in a perfect world) 
lay the burden of their own demons on their children's shoulders.  
Sirius, by acting in such an unstable manner, puts the burden of 
parenthood on Harry's shoulders.  So Harry feels he must protect and 
nurture Sirius, when really it should have been the reverse.

>>Finwitch:
>I think the idea of Sirius being fed that plant that causes
recklessness etc. IS true. It hit me right as Harry was reading about
the plant - is someone feeding it to Sirius?
>As for Kreacher doing it -- Sirius wanted breakfast and began calling
Kreacher. So if Kreacher usually makes his food he certainly had
opportunity.
<snip>
>For all we know, Narcissa gave it to Kreacher with instructions...<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
The first instance of unstable behavior, IMO, is the first fireplace 
chat Sirius has with Harry where he tells Harry that he's a lesser 
man than his father.  And that came only a week after Harry et al 
left for Hogwarts.  That's part of the reason I doubt Kreacher is the 
culprit, because it's before he's given the command to get out and 
goes for a nice little visit with Mrs. Malfoy.

As to why no one else seems affected (I think Molly is acting well in 
character when she yells at Sirius, IMO, she's fond of shrieking, 
that one) by the poison, perhaps it's delivered in something only 
Sirius partakes of.  (Maybe his private liquor stash?  That would tie 
somethings together nicely...)

>>Catlady:
<snip>
>There are old threads debating that Sirius could not have been very
drugged to recklessness and bad temper because Lupin and other people
who knew Sirius better than we do would have noticed that he was
acting out of character and tried to find out why. Alcoholism doesn't
have that objection: his old friends would see clearly what was
wrong.<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
If the poison was delivered in his liquor, that could provide a 
readily available excuse for the irrational behavior.  It also 
appears that Sirius wasn't noticably worsening.  He'd behave badly, 
and then he'd seem to pull himself together until the next instance 
of unstable behaviour.  There's also the strong possibility that it 
was one of his "old friends" doing the poisoning.  If it wasn't 
Kreacher, than it must have been an Order member.

And, as has been pointed out by many in this thread, Sirius certainly 
has good reason to fall apart.  There may have been a reluctance to 
question why Sirius fell apart so badly on those sporadic occasions 
because so many felt bad and/or guilty over his false imprisonment.  

Betsy Hp