The good Slytherin / Salazar

Thu Jun 23 00:54:41 UTC 2005

No: HPFGUIDX 131226

> >>Alla earlier :
> <snip> 
> >I don't think that Slytherins' bad reputation is purely in the 
eye 
> of  the beholder. I also think that whoever will be the good 
> Slytherin or Slytherins to emerge will reject the ideology of 
their 
> house.<
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> If that happens, then IMO, we're not actually getting a 
> good "Slytherin", we're just getting a good guy.  Which is boring 
to 
> my mind.  "Oh Harry, you're so right, and my house is so wrong!  
> Please can I be your friend?"  What will Harry have learned?  
> Nothing about Slytherin.  He won't be making use of Slytherin 
> Strengths and will therefore not be making use of the entire 
> Strength of Hogwarts.  IMO, anyway.

Alla:

Well, I definitely disagree then. No, actually, I should have 
Clarified  - this person (hypothetical good Slytherin) should reject 
Slytherin's "purebloodism" and absolutely hold on to Slytherin 
strengths, but the problem is that so far to me - 
the "purebloodism" , NOT Slytherins's strengths is what defines  
Slytherin House.

Since my money is on Theodore Nott being one of the good Slytherins, 
I find it very telling that JKR called him on his website "clever 
loner who does not feel a need to join gangs" (paraphrase)

I think that Theo will decide for himself that ambition does not 
have to go hand in hand with thought that only purebloods are 
entitled to the best things in society.

As you probably know, I share POV that in "potterverse" ideological 
lines are drawn quite clearly and the site of "purebloods are 
better than anybody else" is not  the one to be on, IMO.

Therefore I don't see anything wrong in admitting by "good 
Slytherins" that their thinking is flawed on so many levels.

So, yes, I do think that Slytherin House at the end will be the one 
to change the most or there will be no more houses in Hogwarts at 
all. I can see this one even better.

> >>Alla earlier:
> >We HEAR Slytherins' ideology from Draco's mouth and  the gist of 
it 
> is that "Muggleborns are inferior to purebloods". That is an 
> objective statement, which could be judged quite independently 
from 
> Harry's POV.<
> <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Well, Draco certainly shares the *Malfoy* ideology to anyone who 
> will listen. (Usually with a "my father says" thrown in for good 
> measure.)  And I agree that this ideology is wrong.  It's what led 
> his father to the Death Eaters (and kept him there) and it's an 
> ideology that Draco will have to reject if he's to become 
the "good 
> Slytherin".
> 
> But I disagree that this is the *Slytherin* ideology.  For one, we 
> never hear Snape (or Phineas Nigellus for that matter) say similar 
> things.  For another we know of at least one Slytherin who 
rejected 
> the ideology enough to *marry* a muggle-born.  I think *Harry* 
> thinks it's the Slytherin ideology.  But that's because he's had a 
> biased view of the house for years now.  It's a bias I think he 
> needs to get over.

Alla:

I unfortunately cannot find my earlier posts on that issue, so I 
will just summarize.

The reason why I think that "purebloodism" IS Slytherin's house 
ideology is because we have not seen ANY Slytherin yet  ( in the 
younger generation at least) who does not share  such ideology.

Now, you may argue that we have not seen any Slytherins but Draco  
and his cronies sharing this ideology either, but is the absence of 
the evidence equals evidence to the contrary?

I am not so sure. Since JKR does not have book space to develop 
every secondary character, I create an impression of Slytherin 
House based on representatives of Slytherin house I read about so 
far and if you don't know yet, they REALLY don't appeal to me that 
much. :-)

I mean, I absolutely think that JKR may not have introduced the good 
Slytherin yet on purpose and may pull the rug later, but I don't see 
any sign that "purebloodism" does not belong in Slytherin
House.

Snape, well, again, I sure  hope that he rejected this view when he 
betrayed Voldemort, but I submit that we have no evidence that he 
did.
He could have betrayed Voldemort for purely personal reasons  and it 
does not mean that he had to stop thinking that "purebloods are 
better than anybody else" to do so.

And we have at least a  possibility that Snape still thinks that way
Password to Slytherin Dorms was "pureblood" after all.

It may not mean anything, since we don't even know  who comes up 
with passwords, but I think  the passwords have to be acceptable to 
the students, no?

> >>Alla earlier : 
> >Now, Ron, IMO does not just dislike the Slytherins. He dislikes 
the 
> ideology of those who proclaims that Muggleborns witches and 
Wizards 
> are second class citizens. 

> Betsy Hp:
> Here's where I disagree most strongly.  Ron admits, in CoS, that 
he 
> had no idea that Salazar Slytherin had only wanted to teach pure-
> bloods.  So his dislike of the house had *nothing* to do with 
blood 
> ideology.  His brothers hissed at first years who were newly 
sorted 
> into the house (a little young to be pure-blood ideologues, I 
think) 
> so I think the sports analogy is apt.  The Weasleys don't like 
> Slytherin *because* they're Slytherin.  Any logical reasons for 
the 
> dislike are just icing on the cake for them.

Alla:

This quote is at the very least opened to interpretation, IMO

" I always knew Salazar Slytherin was a twisted old loony", Ron told 
Harry and Hermione as they fought their way through the terming 
corridors at the end of the lesson to drop off their bags before 
dinner.
But I never knew he started  all this pure blood stuff. I wouldn't 
be in his house if you paid me. Honestly, if Sorting Hat tried to 
put  me in Slytherin, I'd've got  the train straight back home" - 
Cos, p.152, paperback.

Ron clearly has not a good opinion of Salasar and the fact that he 
did not know that he started "pureblood stuff" does not mean that 
Ron did not know what Slytherin house stands for.\

As to twins hissing, yes, that was not nice, but I submit that was 
indeed icing on the cake and underneath of that is the idea that any 
Slytherin is potential hater of Muggleborns,which surely is not good.

As to signing up eleven years old as potential racists and DE, 
well, yes, it bothers me too. 

> Betsy Hp:
> Out of curiosity, if you *had* to judge Gryffindor based soley on 
> Peter Pettigrew and the current actions of Percy Weasley, what 
view 
> would you have of Gryffindor house?  Not a positive one I'd wager.

Alla:

Erm , yes, of course, not a positive one.

But  we do have many good Gryffindors to act as counterparts to 
Peter and even though I am not a Percy's defender, I submit that  he 
is not quite on the evil side yet.

Swimsalone: 

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Alla, in that I 
> would enjoy seeing Slytherin counterparts to Malfoy, Crabbe, and 
> Goyle who might be loyal to their house, yet oppose the pure-blood 
> doctrine and who have no love for Voldemort. 
> 
> I think it would be interesting if the new "romantic interest" for 
> Harry in HBP were, in fact, a girl from Slytherin...one whom he 
would 
> find himself attracted to despite his feelings for her house (and 
its 
> head). 

Alla:

Hee, it is nice to hear the note of agreement. I am not sure that 
JKR will go for Harry's romantic interest being in Slytherin though 
(although I could be wrong of course), unless she decides to go for 
secondary character.

I am more and more inclined to think that Harry's eventual romantic 
interest will have red hair and many brothers. :-)

Now, if indeed JKR were to play out  the redemption of Draco Malfoy 
( shudders), then I would think that having a romantic interest in 
the other house would be a nice hint for such redemption.

Just my opinion,

Alla