Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?)

[lupinlore]

No: HPFGUIDX 131640

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Lupinlore I know that you love to argue for the fun of it. Of course 
> I, and I am sure everyone else on both sides of this debate, do not 
> condone abuse of any kind.  That goes without saying, IMO.

Actually, you are completely incorrect.  I hate and despise arguing,
it is one of my most serious emotional weaknesses.  And because I hate
it so much, and because it is such a glaring weakness, I swore long
ago that I would never allow it to keep me from arguing when arguing
is called for -- and in the case of Snape's teaching methods, arguing
is definitely called for.


> 
> What I am arguing is that Snape fits (as some say) in the *shades of 
> gray area*.  I don't know anything about the modern U.S. school 
> system and what the rules are there.  And since Harry Potter does 
> not attend a U.S. school, I do not think that information is 
> relevant anyway.  I am thinking about when I was a child and life in 
> general.  Even very nasty people who do seriously emotional abuse 
> (think Umbridge) are not prosecuted for it because as far as I am 
> aware it is not against the law anywhere (WW, MW, RW).  Physical 
> abuse is against the law in our RW, but I am not aware of emotional 
> abuse being so.  I suspect that is would be hard to prove.  What is 
> emotionally abusive to one may not be to someone else. (Does that 
> mean that it is OK to be like Umbridge, of course not.)
> 

Yes, you are write about emotional abuse and the law.  That is why
schools have standards and regulations above and beyond the law.  And
that is where Dumbledore, and the WW in general, fail grievously.


> When I say that Snape is sometimes emotionally abusive I am thinking 
> of someone like Neville.  Neville is not your typical child.  He 
> grew up in a negative environment at home as far as I can tell.  His 
> grandmother doesn't seem like the nurturing type.  And Neville seems 
> especially sensitive.  When he was younger, you could probably just 
> look at him crossways and he would burst into tears.  Yes, it would 
> be nice if Neville had a loving nurturing teacher, but it has been 
> my experience that those types of teachers are rare.  And very rare 
> once you get past the 3rd or 4th grade or so.  By then you are 
> expected to be tougher.  Some like Neville are not.  I understand 
> that.  Some are like Neville their whole life.  Does that mean that 
> when they get out into the real world and have a job and a jack
s  
> for a manager that the manager should be fired?  My answer to that 
> would be yes.  But does that happen??  Very, very rarely and when it 
> does it is because they found some other way to hang them.  

You are right again.  And I would be willing to tolerate Snape in
Neville's case if his attitude toward Neville were no worse than for
any of the other Gryffindor's - and if Neville were getting some level
of support from his Head of House.  It reminds me of a situation I
once had with a very Snape like teacher.  In this case, the Assistant
Principal finally pulled me aside and said "Look, X doesn't like
students who are Y" -- I won't go into the specifics.  "We all know
that, and he doesn't dislike you any worse than any other Y's. 
Unfortunately, life is full of a*holes (and she did actually use that
word) and when they're tenured a*holes there isn't much we can do. 
Just trust that the rest of us aren't stupid and that we know how he
is and we aren't about to listen to him or let his opinions ruin your
record."  I never had any more trouble in this particular teacher's
class.  Furthermore, that experience gave me the courage, when
confronted by an abusive boss later in life, to go to my boss's
superior, who said "I can't do much about him, but I can allow you to
transfer to a new opening we have available in another office.  Thank
you for coming to me, else I would not have thought about you for this
opportunity."

If Neville were only being treated the same as Ron or Seamus or even
Hermione, and if we had evidence that he got some kind of support, no
matter how stern, from McGonagall (e.g. "I can't do anything about
Professor Snape's grading standards but I will speak to him about the
personal insults"), then I would say that having an experience with
Snape is teaching him a lesson that, regretably, he does need to
learn.  However, Snape is going *well* out of his way to treat Neville
worse even than he treats most Gryffindors, and we *don't* have any
evidence that Neville gets any support from his Head of House --
rather the opposite, in fact.


<SNIP>
> 
> I am not saying that one should go out of their way to hire nasty 
> teachers. Basically what I am saying is that on a scale of one to 
> ten with one being Molly and ten being Umbridge, I think that Snape 
> is about a 5.  And a 5 is OK.  (I think that very few of us are a 
> one on any regular basis. Most of us are probably a 4.)  So Snape at 
> a 5 is strict, no nonsense, with a bit of sarcastic wit perhaps.  
> And most of the kids can handle it.  And with a little help so can 
> Neville. 
> 

Once again, I think Snape may be a 5 (or maybe a six) with the typical
Gryffindor, but with *Harry and Neville* he is much worse.  Also
Neville really *isn't* getting "a little help" from the appropriate
sources.

> One final thing.  Remember how the rest of the staff responded to 
> Umbridge? Then think of how they interact with Snape.  If Snape was 
> really all that bad don't you think that we would see the rest of 
> the staff treating him the same as they do Umbridge?  But they 
> don't.  And on this point, I rest my case. 
> 

Well, I agree with Phoenixgod on this one.  The WW is a backward,
corrupt, and deeply abusive society.  The fact that Snape may be OK by
their standards is no defense whatsoever.


Lupinlore