Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?)

[Chris]

No: HPFGUIDX 131674

> Del replies:
> I completely disagree. If what Person A does to Person B is neither
> immoral nor illegal by society's standards, then it is entirely 
>Person B's problem if they don't like it.

  So, if person A is doing what he is doing, person B just has to 
deal with it? What about person C, D, E, F and so on and so forth. 
When enough people get together to say one thing is wrong, or that 
they feel person A is a problem, usually that is enough to prove 
there is in fact a problem, right? If Harry and the rest come out and 
say that Snape is unnecessarily abusive toward them, that's enough. 
Regardless of what the society's rules and morality are, if there is 
a widespread problem with enough people complaining, something has to 
be done.

 > Example: back when I was working, I did not like the sexual pics 
>and jokes that my coworker pinned all around his work station, but 
>because this was neither illegal nor immoral, I had no recourse but 
>to swallow it. On the other hand, I could threaten them with legal 
>action when they smoked around me, because it is illegal to smoke 
>inside buildings.

   You are talking about a LAW against smoking inside buildings, 
right? When did it become a law, and why was it made a law? Probably, 
enough health professionals and individual citizens came together 
with a complaint and the government responded with this law. The 
situation you described with the sexual pictures is against the law 
in my area of the U.S. It didn't use to be though. But enough men and 
especially women had a problem with it, complained to officials who 
could do something about it, and it is now against the law. People 
stood up when they had a problem regardless of what society at the 
time thought, and enacted change! Why can't Harry and the other 
students do the same?
 

> Del replies:
> That's *personal* morality. But nobody's personal morality defines
> what a society finds morally acceptable or not. 

  Really? I always thought that the collective consciousness of a 
society was based on the individual consciounesses of the society at 
large. The ideals of a society were not based on what any one man or 
woman thought at the time. Murder has been wrong since God said it 
was, but do all people believe murder is wrong because God said so. I 
think there are some atheists out there who think murder is wrong, 
not because one individual said so but because it is a common belief 
throughout society. 


>Some people have a very "low" morality and find many things 
>acceptable that society finds repulsive. Inversely, many people find 
>that some things that are accepted by society are morally offensive 
>to them.

   But do these "repulsive" things of a society personally impact 
upon an individual? Society generally accepts homosexuality, but 
there are many who find this lifestyle repulsive. Does this lifestyle 
have a personal impact on these people? No, it does not. Homosexuals 
live out their lives without ever being around or involved with these 
individuals. Not so with Snape and the students. He is personally 
impacting each one of the children that he is in contact with. The 
wizarding society may accept this behavioe as a whole, but 
individuals like Harry, Neville, and the others do not.
 
> Del replies:
> It is their right to do so, but it is nobody else's duty to agree 
>with them. If someone feels violated because I looked at them, it's 
>their problem, not mine. Nobody has a right to force me to apologise 
>or to look the other way. 

  But Harry doesn't have a problem with the way Snape looks at him. 
He has a problem with the way he is being treated and spoken to. Does 
looking at someone really cause them harm in anyway, whether they 
like the way you look at them or not? No. But verbally abusing and 
mistreating someone does. A teacher can give a student a stern look 
which the student may not appreciate, but if the teacher says "You 
are an idiot, and will never succeed!" or tears up a homework 
assignment and then says "Zero!" then there is a problem.

 

> 4. Living in a democracy with a constitution means that this kind of
> scenario as you described can't happen. Such a law would be
> anti-constitutional, so it couldn't be passed. I notice, however, 
>that we have never heard of a WW constitution, which explains that 
>Umbridge was able to pass all those Educational Decrees. They would 
>have been deemed anti-constitutional in many RW democratic countries.

  But the WW, in absence of a constitution would use these 
educational decrees and any other orders by the Ministry as law. Who 
decides that these laws are immoral, the people enacting them or the 
people in society that have to live by them? Obviously, Umbridge 
didn't think that these decrees were immoral, so they must not be. 
Oh, wait. Everyone else thought they sucked, but that's ok. It's 
acceptable because she's the High Inquisitor.


 
> 5. My personal morality does come at odds with the law and the 
>general morality quite often. But because my personal morality 
>doesn't have any power on other people, I just have to swallow what 
>is legal, and I can only try to fight what is generally considered 
>moral.

   Who says you have to swallow it? Did Ghandi, did Martin Luther 
King? Did Martin Luther in his Protestant Reformation? Did Abraham 
Lincoln? Are we as individuals so small that we cannot do what we can 
to enact change? The answer is no. The reason things stay the same is 
because nobody has the guts to stand up and try to change it. We 
should just deal with what we can, and ignore everythig else that 
bothers us? No.
 
> Del replies:
> Why should any of this happen? Just because YOU have a problem with
> his teaching methods doesn't mean anybody else should have a problem
> with them too. If Snape doesn't have a problem with them, he has no
> reason to change them. And if DD has no problem with them, he has no
> reason to fire Snape.

  UH, I'm not in the books. I believe Harry, Neville, Hermione, 
Lavender, Patil, all the Weasleys, Sirius, Remus Lupin, Mad-Eye 
Moody, more than likely James AND Lily were they alive...sounds like 
they have a problem with it. I think I have fictional back-up on this 
one...

> You are asking that Snape act as a convict by either reforming or
> being put away, when he is NOT a convict, and can't be one since 
>what he is doing is neither illegal nor considered immoral by his 
>society.

  Who is asking him to act like or be a convict? I'm just saying he 
should start treating the children a little bit better, as most 
adults would do in a "civilized" society.
 
> Del replies:
> Should? But WHY should he do that? "Should" implies that there is 
>some kind of obligation, but Snape has NO such obligation, of any 
>kind.

  You're right. He has no obligation to be nice, treat children with 
respect, teach in a constructive manner, be a good human being and 
role model for his students, or in any way act like a respectable 
adult in a position of power. He should continue abusing his 
authority, lower children's self-respect and esteem, berate those 
with less authority and power than himself, and overall act like a 
general ass. I applaud him!
  
> Del replies:
> That's your point of view, but it doesn't seem to be his, nor DD's,
> and *their* opinion is what matters in the Potterverse.

  Since these books are called "Harry Potter and the..." and you say 
Potterverse, I think Harry has a little say too. :-)  


> Del replies:
> How unusual in the WW...

  Unusual for most of the rational, free-thinking adults. Yes.
 
> Del replies:
> What lesson?? That he "should" be nice? I'm afraid this is not a
> necessary basic life lesson. It's NICE when people decide to include
> it in their own list of commandments, but there is *absolutely NO
> obligation of any kind* to do so.

  You're right. The first thing I plan on teaching my children when 
they're older is that they can walk over anybody, make fun of less 
fortunate people, criticize anyone and anything they wish, and be 
little monsters if they feel like it. As a matter of fact, I will 
save my copies of the books and tell them I hope they are more like 
Snape when they are adults.
  Oh yeah. Then again I won't. Because the last thing I want to do is 
add more pieces of crap into what we call society.

Chris
labmystc