From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 00:09:00 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:09:00 -0000 Subject: Any guesses how old she is then? WAS Re: Petunia's birthday - February 29? In-Reply-To: <422397FE.2090907@swbell.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125354 >Karen Cleary wrote: > > This is going out on a limb, I know: I think Petunia's birthday is February 29th, and that she'll be receiving a Hogwart's letter when she reaches her eleventh birthday - which will occur when she is 44 years old. > > In the FAQ section of her web site JKR states (emphasis added): > "Everyone who shows magical ability before their *eleventh birthday* will automatically gain a place at Hogwarts." Of course, anyone born on leap day - February 29 - only has a birthday every four years, so it takes awhile for those eleven birthdays to roll by. Valky: Hahahah! That's bloody brilliant Karen, canon thin or not, I just love the "outside the box"-ness of it. I am not willing to let this one drop without a proper investigation, so lets add up some figures and see how old Petunia is as of OOtP. Lily was probably 22 at the oldest when she dies, (am I correct, that is the accepted age by all accounts who have done the counting?) So that would make her 38 in HBP, assuming that there is 5 years or less between the girls since Petunia does seem to have been a young girl when Lily got her letter that would mean that Petunia will be no older than 43 in HBP. So there it is folks : If Petunia was 16 when Lily got her letter then she will be **44** in Book seven.... ALL ABOARD!! Valky From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 00:19:37 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:19:37 -0000 Subject: vampire snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125355 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com "snipsnapsnurr" (message 125348): > The latest technique seems to have something to do with >the idea > that there is no clear definition of who is or is not a >vampire > in the Potterverse. Guess what? As I recall there is not only no > clear definition, there is no mention of vampires at all in any of > the books. "K": Actual vampire book references are found in messages 124998 and 125012. I'd also like to know how in the world you could forget the vampire essay Lupin assigned in PoA? ;-) "snipsnapsnurr": > Muggles have legends about many things in the Potterverse. We have >a vague awareness of things like giants, mermaids, centaurs, >phoenixes (phoenices?), elves, werewolves, shapeshifters, etc.-- >even witches and wizards themselves. Our muggle legends about these >wizard realities are garbled and wildly inaccurate. The muggle >vampire legends are simply another example of this. "K": Muggles might not be aware of the elves, werewolves, giants, mermaids, etc., but the wizarding world is. Vampires are a part of that world also. "snipsnapsnurr": > The character who conforms most closely to muggle vampire legend >so far is the headmaster of Durmstrang. He is not identified as a > vampire though. He is a death eater. "K": Ah, but does it have to be one or the other? Don't confuse what a person is (vampire, werewolf, giant, elf, etc.) with their actions (choosing to be a DE). Even a muggle can be a DE. _____________________________________________________________________ Question: Apart from Harry, Snape is my favourite character because he is so complex and I just love him. Can he see the Thestrals, and if so, why? Also, is he a pure blood wizard? JKR: Snape's ancestry is hinted at. He was a Death Eater, so clearly he is no Muggle born, because Muggle borns are not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 _____________________________________________________________________ "snipsnapsnurr": > I believe that muggle vampir legends are just garbled accounts of > what would be called death eaters in the Potterverse. "K": Well, muggles might have a garbled account of vampires but the wizarding world doesn't. There are books on vampires, they are in the Black Forest, they are studied, the kids believe garlic will ward them off, they have waxy, white skin, there are vampire hunters, Rita Skeeter wants them stamped out, Hermione reads a book on vampires, Hagrid meets one in a pub in Minsk and Harry believes an answer on the O.W.L. test had to do with vampires. Plus, the Centaurs object to them. But maybe we should think about vampires and DE's. How about this little chat between Seamus and Thomas: _____________________________________________________________________ 'Wonder what they'll give us next year?' said Seamus Finnigan gloomily. (concerning DADA instructor) 'Maybe a vampire,' suggested Dean Thomas hopefully. pos/ch 22/pg 313/uk _____________________________________________________________________ "K": The next year Barty Crouch Jr. was the DADA instructor. So? Was Barty Jr. a vampire? He was a DE and maybe he was a vampire. Rita Skeeter attended at least one of the DE trials and Rita wants to stamp vampires out. Why is that? What does she have against vampires? "Last week she (Rita) was saying we're wasting our time quibbling about cauldron thickness, when we should be stamping out vampires! ch 10-pg 147-gof-us Yes, vampires are mentioned in the books and I do believe they will play a role. Personally, I would love to see them and yes, I would love for Snape to be a half-vampire. However I agree with Joe in SoFla concerning Snape (message 125236): ~*If he isn't, no big whoop.*~ "K" From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 00:22:18 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:22:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Double standards for male and femalle characters? Was: Re: Mother Molly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050301002218.17363.qmail@web20025.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125356 I always felt we were supposed to be sickened. It worked, IMO. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 00:58:12 2005 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:58:12 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Any guesses how old she is then? WAS Re: Petunia's birthday - February 29? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125357 Aisbelmon at hotmail.com produced the brilliant theory: > > This is going out on a limb, I know: I think Petunia's birthday is >February 29th, and that she'll be receiving a Hogwart's letter when >she reaches her eleventh birthday - which will occur when she is 44 >years old. Valky then did the math (as did I, but she published first): >Lily was probably 22 at the oldest when she dies, (am I correct, >that is the accepted age by all accounts who have done the counting?) >So that would make her 38 in HBP, assuming that there is 5 years or >less between the girls since Petunia does seem to have been a young >girl when Lily got her letter that would mean that Petunia will be >no older than 43 in HBP. > >So there it is folks : If Petunia was 16 when Lily got her letter >then she will be **44** in Book seven.... ALL ABOARD!! I have always suspected that if it wasn't Mrs. Figg, it would be Petunia who started doing magic "late in life." And I think I remember that JKR once said that of all her characters, she dislikes Vernon Dursley the most -- which was quite an eye-opener considering some of the competition. And her worst villain became that way after his mother was deserted by his father when he found out she was a witch. If Petunia *does* show magical tendencies, will Vernon leave her? Will he take Dudley with him, deeming Petunia the witch as an unfit mother? Alternatively, will he throw her out? (Note that Petunia almost certainly has no means of support or any way of acquiring one.) Again, what about Dudley? And come to think of it, Dudley is old enough to have his own opinion (although possibly not old enough to choose his guardian by law). If his parents split over Petunia's witchcraft, which way will he go? And perhaps most significant, if Petunia and Dudley don't live at Privet Drive, it's no longer "the place where your mother's blood dwells" ... and if Vernon keeps Dudley but throws out Petunia, he wouldn't let Harry stay there anyway. Janet Anderson (This is, I agree, ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT.) From potionmistress60 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 00:53:26 2005 From: potionmistress60 at yahoo.com (potionmistress60) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:53:26 -0000 Subject: Petunia's birthday - February 29? In-Reply-To: <422397FE.2090907@swbell.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125360 Karen Cleary wrote: > > Petunia's the obvious candidate for the leap day birthday; we know > something is unusual in her relations with the magical world and that > she is "not a witch, but..." She is conceivably the right age. As > for whether or not she's aware of her status as a potential candidate > for Hogwarts, I'm not sure. She may be desparately repressing any sign > of magical ability in an attempt to avoid receiving the letter, but > she has right of refusal to the invitation, so although it certainly > appears that Dumbledore is holding something over her head, I'm not so > sure it has anything to do with attending Hogwarts. > > OK, so the canon's a bit thin, but it's got good filk potential, so > there. :-P That would be interesting, indeed. If Petunia does prove to be "magical", perhaps the Evans family is pureblood. So, if the Potters and the Evans are pureblood wizards, that would mean Harry is also pureblood. What's interesting is that Voldemort marked Harry as an equal. Many assume it is because he is thought to be a half-blood like Voldemort/Tom Riddle. What if this "Harry is the savior of the wizarding world" is a bit of a diversion? What I'm trying to say is that maybe Neville is the actual one who will thwart Voldemort. In order to keep Neville safe, Harry is being used in order to throw Voldemort off track. By keeping Harry's pureblood status a secret, it gave Voldemort the illusion that Harry is just like him, thus he possibly made a mistake by choosing to "mark" Harry and is now concentrating his efforts on eliminating that boy, instead of the real wizard savior - Neville Longbottom. Deb From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 02:59:00 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 02:59:00 -0000 Subject: Any guesses how old she is then? WAS Re: Petunia's birthday - February 29? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125363 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" wrote: > Aisbelmon at h... produced the brilliant theory: > > > > This is going out on a limb, I know: I think Petunia's birthday is > >February 29th, and that she'll be receiving a Hogwart's letter when > >she reaches her eleventh birthday - which will occur when she is 44 > >years old. > Just for the record, the credit goes to Karen, for the introduction of the theory, as I am sure was meant by Janet. But the email above Aisbelmon... is mine, not Karen's. Valky From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 03:31:27 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 03:31:27 -0000 Subject: Double standards for male and femalle characters? Was: Re: Mother Molly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125364 Sandra: And on this subject, what about the torturing scenes where Harry has to write lines that are carved into the back of his hand? I hated that so much - it's such a twisted idea in the first place (shame on JKR), but if say Snape had given that as a punishment to Hermione and was 'overseeing' her for the duration, I believe Childline would use it to trigger a new campaign! However, the 'lady' responsible was merely exercising her authority. I refer to both writer and character, and feel rather angry about it. There's plot-development and there's character-development, and that was just a bad idea done for the sake of a cheap'n'easy answer to both. Sandra (still miffed and sickened, but nowhere near as much as one of my friend's daughters who refused to finish the book.) Alla: I am afraid I don't understand your argument. Umbridge's detentions were disgusting, immoral, cruel... Pick your own word. :) I don't even remember anyone arguing that Umbridge was purely "exercising her authority" and therefore it was OK. It surely was not me. :o) Some posters argued that detentions were good BECAUSE they showed to Harry how dangerous Umbridge was, but that is not exactly defending her , isn't it? No matter which character will be doing such disgusting thing, male or female, I can assure you, I won't praise or even justify it. It is just NOT justifiable at all, IMO. I don't know whether I agree with you that it was bad plot device . I honestly don't know. I don't know what JKR had in mind introducing it. I mean I agree with Rebecca that we were supposed to feel sick while reading it, but besides that I am not sure whether it advanced plot much or not. I guess it accomplished one thing for me - it made me sympathise with Harry even more I already did. Just my opinion of course, Alla. From dontask2much at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 04:14:55 2005 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 04:14:55 -0000 Subject: Immortal LV's Dr. Frankenstein: Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125366 The part of the books that mention vampires got me started towards this theory. No, no, it's not a Snape is a vampire/half vampire thingy, so just relax and let your mind wander, broaden...oh, wait, where was I? :) Ah.yes. So we don't get confused I will spread the I-am-not-posting- Snape-is-a-vampire statement liberally throughout this post. :) I figure that by constant reminders rather than constant vigilance about Snape being a vampire, we'll avoid any confusion. I think the mentions of certain Dark Creatures in relation to the mystery surrounding Snape provide us with the ability to discern the reason why DD trusts Snape, and also why DD chose not to kill LV in the MoM. It starts with mentions (just hear me out, willya?) of vampires in the books to date, the concept of what a vampire, boggart, and dementor does, and relates specifically to the following paragraph which TR shares with Harry in CoS: "If I say it myself, Harry, I've always been able to charm the people I needed. So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted .... I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets. I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her. . ." The following sections contain the word vampire and is about the vampire legends and information, but none of them applied to Snape being a vampire, a half vampire or having any such pointy teeth or propensity for blood. Get it? Rinse and repeat. ;) By Western convention, vampires "feed" on blood, have some "mind control" abilities, and don't age. Vampires were thought to have no reflection, as it was widely accepted mirrors reflected the soul and evil creatures didn't have one. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I'm just raising my eyebrow at the "mind control" (Legilimens) and "mirrors reflecting the soul" (Foe Glass/Snape/GoF) for obvious reasons. Snape ages, so Snape being one in any form is suspect. However, that all could be collectively a clue to what follows below... The current day folks who call themselves vampires don't consider themselves the "undead" - they don't drink blood, but instead profess to use vampirism as a means of practicing magic. They also don't "feed" off blood, instead focusing their talents physically, spiritually or psychically to feeding on the "life energy" of like- minded and willing compatriots. These vampires claim such activities enhance their own energy and vitality. (Check Wikipedia for details) If you think of it, this is exactly what boggarts and dementors do: "feed" off a certain aspect of a wizard. And rather what LV appears to do as well. Now for the good parts. :) Think what dementors, boggarts, and vampires have in common, and how LV in a sense encompasses some of their more undesirable abilities. Then think about the Dark Mark, who literally showed us the Dark Mark initially, and whom we passionately disagree and discuss: behind door #3, I give you Potions Master, Severus Snape. The Dark Mark, presented for our "viewing" by Snape, could both be a form of communication, as well as the physical way for LV taking "life energy" or a piece of the soul from the DE's (willing donors) - maybe this is why they are so sensitive when someone says "Voldemort" in their presence as it could (and this is out on a limb) kick off the charm/curse/hex whatever that allows LV to get what that piece of their souls. A wizard who says LV's name might unknowingly be "cursing" the DE who is marked and within earshot, hence the shuddering and clutching of the Mark we see Peter and Snape do when the name is uttered in their presence. Losing some of your "soul" might hurt a tad. Might help keep Voldy "alive" those Dark Marks, methinks? Refer to the TR canon prior in this post: charm the people he needed (Vampish), he wanted souls (Dementor like), and deepest fears (Boggart like.) Maybe this is Snape's connection: he is the first person we see who introduces the Dark Mark to the septology and just perhaps, he is the one who devised this wicked little method. Up to his eyeballs in the Dark Arts and smarter than everybody, he did it with the Dark Lord and created an immortal Frankenstein (LV, metaphorically speaking.) Snape turned to spy for DD, and *that*, my friends, leads to why DD trusts Severus Snape. Snape may have had second thoughts about his own creation, so to speak, and has told DD his part in LV's "immortality." Could you imagine Snape telling DD he was *wrong* for doing it? That might provoke DD to trust him. DD would then also know trying to kill LV in the DoM would be futile, because LV with his ample source of DE's & Dark Marks would be restored to power eventually down the road. I hope you've enjoyed our guests today and tune in next time when we discuss "Annoying Posts: When to Step AWAY From the Computer" :) Charme From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 04:29:43 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 04:29:43 -0000 Subject: Snape's Teaching Career - Dumbledore's idea of adult detention? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125367 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > I've often thought that part of what makes Snape so disagreeable and snarky to many of his students is that his sense of honor has never been fulfilled. He knows his actions as a DE were wrong, but he managed to avoid punishment when called to account. Instead of ending up in Azkaban, like many of his comrades, he got rewarded with a cushy position at a highly regarded school of wizardry. He's been forgiven, by Dumbledore, at least. I sometimes wonder if he still feels deep down that he has not atoned for his sins, whatever they may be. Tonks here: Well that could be. But if I am not so sure that Snape thinks that he has a *cushy position*. For someone who does not like children a job as a teacher 24/7 in a boarding school would be *worse* than a stay in Azkaban!!! It sure would be to me!! Tonks_op From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 04:59:16 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 04:59:16 -0000 Subject: Happy birthday, Ron Weasley! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125368 So, Ron is March baby. ;) I wish him to survive the series intact, become a famous Quiditch player, that is if he still wants it at the end, marry Hermione ( if they both want it at the end) and live happily ever after. :) Alla From arynnoctavia at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 05:52:12 2005 From: arynnoctavia at yahoo.com (Arynn Octavia) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:52:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting Hat/Erised (Was: Opposite of Gryffindor?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050301055212.74470.qmail@web31101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125369 These are two magical objects that I would LOVE to get my hands on! What house would I best go in? We usually know ourselves well enough to make an educated guess on that one, but that Mirror! What would I see? That could be a possible life altering experience. Does it show what we fundamentally want, or just what we currently want? If I were thirsty, would it show me drinking a tall glass of water, or would it show me as an author, meeting the woman of my dreams, and discovering the cure for Schizophrenia? If you are desperatly looking for your keys, and you look into the mirror, would you see where your keys are? If so, it could be used for divination, except it would be hard to tell if what you were seeing was the future, or what you want of the future. My big question: Has JKR mentioned if we will see that mirror again? --Arynn Octavia (A Lupin Lover) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 06:01:49 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 06:01:49 -0000 Subject: Correction and advancing the theory. WAS Any guesses ? - Re: Petunia's birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125370 > Karen produced the brilliant theory: >> This is going out on a limb, I know: I think Petunia's birthday is >>February 29th, and that she'll be receiving a Hogwart's letter when >>she reaches her eleventh birthday - which will occur when she is 44 >>years old. > > Valky then did the math (Sloppily): > > >Lily was probably 22 at the oldest when she dies, (am I correct, > >that is the accepted age by all accounts who have done the > >counting?) > >So that would make her 38 in HBP, Valky (Back again with a brighter mind): Ooops Harry was 1 when Lily was 22, and I counted from zero, so darn it now I have to do it again. In HBP, Lily's age will have been: 37 That is assuming that she was 22 when she died. > I (Valky) said before: > > assuming that there is 5 years or less between the girls since > > Petunia does seem to have been a young > > girl when Lily got her letter that would mean that Petunia will > > be no older than 43 in HBP. > > Valky now: Ok NOW its a bit more complex than that... To assume as I did above I would have to reckon Petunia to be 6 years older than Lily, making her about 17 when Lily receives her letter. This isn't too inconcievable really, Petunia is still young enough to get ridiculously jealous for her parent's affections. That would make Petunia 43 in HBP and 44 in Book seven. Now I would like to add some more fruit to the mix and consider the official Harry Potter Timeline. One the official Time Line the only leap year is 1996. This is the year of HBP. So if this theory is at all to become possible, Petunia must turn 44 in 1996. For that to be a possibility then Lily's age would need to have been fairly close to 5 years younger or less in HBP. Five years younger is 39. Which doesn't fit with the Lily was 22 timeline... But its fairly close. So either we have to slide Lily's age up, or we need to assume a larger gap between Petunia and Lily than 5-6 years. Now considering that I have probably just done more math on this one point than JKR was keen to do on the entire series (lol I don't mind lets leave JKR's blurry maths exactly as it is) then it is entirely plausible that Petunia and Lily were imagined to have "erm.. about five to seven years between them" and thats all the information we need to confirm this theory floats and HBP will bring more OWLS to Privet Drive.. lol I could leave it at that but I am TENACIOUS!! ;D OTOH lets just say for arguments sake that JKR did consider a 29th of Feb birthday for Petunia decided to be extremely accurate with the dates that proved it, and lets look at the options in that regard. 1. GH!Lily is older than 22. Well by all accounts this is as good as impossible. Based on Sirius' and Snape's ages the Marauders generation were all born close to a zero marker of Jan 1960. Lily in 1981 could not possibly be older than 22, and thats the end of that story. 2. Widen the Gap between Petunia and Lily. This is more plausible, but not directly supportive of the theory. The gap needs to be widened to 7 years which would make Petunia 18 or thereabouts when Lily recieves her Hogwarts letter. It's hard to imagine Petunia as having been older than 18 then, considering her speech in PS. Some further microsurgery.. *If* Petunia was born on Feb 29 1952 then she *was* born in a leap year. This *is* seven years earlier than the best possible birthdate for a 22 year old GH!Lily, which would be in late 1959. Break this down into months and we find that Petunia is 7 years and 7+ months older than Lily. Therefore 18 going on 19 when Lily gets her Hogwarts letter. Is this too old ? I'll leave that up to you... Here's two interesting things to take with you while you ponder that. On 29th Feb 1996 person born on 29th Feb 1952 will be..... prrrrrr rrr rrrr rrrr (drum roll) FORTY-FOUR!! IF Petunia *is* a witch born on 29th of February 1952 The she got her Hogwarts letter.... Prrrrrr rrrrr rrr rrrr rrr *****during OOTP!!!!!!****** Valky From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 06:09:35 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 06:09:35 -0000 Subject: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125371 Thinking about the personality types of Molly, Arthur, DD, Lupin and other NF types, it occurred to me that they are all poor. On the other hand Percy who is an STJ has the drive and discipline to excel and be one of the *rich* if not famous. And Lucius is certainly not an NF type either. Is it because the NF types think about other people's feeling or have a conscience that gets in the way of doing some of the things necessary for advancement? Do the NF type think about all of the details and points of view and this gets in the way? Or do they just not value the same things as those with more riches? Is there something inherent in the NF personality that cases them to not excel financially as someone like Percy is bound to do? Do you think that there is any connection between personality type and ones standard of living or social standing? I would love to hear what people think about this. Tonks_op From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 07:26:54 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 07:26:54 -0000 Subject: "Erm.." in OOtP (Vampire!Snape whose side you on NOw?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125372 Ok now knowing that JKR *wrote* the "Erm.. I don't think so." answer to Vampire!Snape I decided to do a little research. So far A quick skip through OOtP reveals TWO meanings of Erm... in JKR's writing. So here it is folks The OOtP verdict on "Erm.. I don't think so." Jo is either VERY nervous. Or She is ummm telling a little white lie. Look below to see the evidence for yourself. Valky 'Harry?' said Hermione tentatively. 'Well done, Hermione,' said Harry, so heartily it did not sound like his voice at all, and, still not looking at her, 'brilliant. Prefect. Great.' Thanks,' said Hermione. 'Erm - Harry - could I borrow Hedwig so I can tell Mum and Dad? They'll be really pleased - I mean prefect is something they can understand.' Cho had called him brave she did not hate him for being alive Of course, she had preferred Cedric, he knew that though if he'd only asked her to the Ball before Cedric had, things might have turned out differently she had seemed sincerely sorry that she'd had to refuse when Harry asked her 'Morning,' Harry said brightly to Ron and Hermione as he joined them at the Gryffindor table in the Great Hall. 'What are you looking so pleased about?' said Ron, eyeing Harry in surprise. 'Erm Quidditch later,' said Harry happily, pulling a large platter of bacon and eggs towards him. 'Harry,' she said timidly, 'don't you see? This this is exactly why we need you we need to know what it's r-really like facing him facing V-Voldemort.' It was the first time she had ever said Voldemort's name and it was this, more than anything else, that calmed Harry. Still breathing hard, he sank back into his chair, becoming aware as he did so that his hand was throbbing horribly again. He wished he had not smashed the bowl of Murtlap essence. 'Well think about it,' said Hermione quietly. 'Please?' Harry could not think of anything to say. He was feeling ashamed of his outburst already. He nodded, hardly aware of what he was agreeing to. Hermione stood up. 'Well, I'm off to bed,' she said, in a voice that was clearly as natural as she could make it. 'Erm night.' 'Er,' said Hermione, her voice slightly higher than usual out of nerves. 'Well - er - hi.' The group focused its attention on her instead, though eyes continued to dart back regularly to Harry. 'Well erm well, you know why you're here. Erm well, Harry here had the idea - I mean' (Harry had thrown her a sharp look) 'I had the idea. 'Well, I on'y jus' got back,' said Hagrid, waving an enormous hand at the haversack. 'Maybe someone came ter call earlier an' I missed 'em.' 'There are no footsteps leading away from your cabin door.' 'Well, I I don' know why that'd be ' said Hagrid, tugging nervously at his beard and again glancing towards the corner where Harry, Ron and Hermione stood, as though asking for help. 'Erm ' Oh, don' you worry abou' that, I've got a great load o' lessons planned,' said Hagrid enthusiastically, scooping up his dragon steak from the table and slapping it over his eye again. 'I've bin keepin' a couple o' creatures saved fer yer OWL year; you wait, they're somethin' really special.' 'Erm special in what way?' asked Hermione tentatively Hermione had tears of fury in her eyes now. 'You hag, you evil hag!' she whispered, as Umbridge walked towards Pansy Parkinson. 'I know what you're doing, you awful, twisted, vicious -' 'Erm anyway,' said Hagrid, clearly struggling to regain the flow of his lesson, 'so - Thestrals. Yeah. Well, there's loads o' good stuff abou' them ' And what do you think of them?' she said, waving her stubby hand at the horses, who by now had stripped a great deal of the carcass down to bone. 'Erm,' said Neville nervously, with a glance at Hagrid. Well, they're er OK " 'Students are too intimidated to admit they are frightened,' muttered Umbridge, making another note on her clipboard. 'Yeah, not bad,' said Harry. 'Mine was pretty quiet,' said Cho. For some reason, she was looking rather embarrassed. 'Erm there's another Hogsmeade trip next month, did you see the notice?' 'What? Oh, no, I haven't checked the noticeboard since I got back.' 'I've been meaning to ask you for ages did Cedric - did he - in - in - mention me at all before he died?' This was the very last subject on earth Harry wanted to discuss, and least of all with Cho. 'Well - no -' he said quietly. There - there wasn't time for him to say anything. Erm so d'you d'you get to see a lot of Quidditch in the holidays? You support the Tornados, right?' The wrap: Nervous = 5 times Lying = 4 times ***************************************************************** Got a HBP Prophecy? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_prophecy_orb/ Signum Orbis From queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 10:34:10 2005 From: queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 10:34:10 -0000 Subject: Department of Mysteries Prophecies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125373 I was reading through the Beyond the Veil chapter, when I came across something which had been already discussed before. But reading it further, I tried deciphering it, and whether this is a clue or just me and others over analysing the part of the book, or perhaps a red herring on JKR's part. Pg 692, OOTP, English Edition: *A jet of red light had shot out of Bellatrix Lestrange's wand, but Malfoy had deflected it; his spell caused hers to hit the shelf a foot to the left of harry and several of the glass orbs there shattered. Two figures, pearly-white as ghosts.... began to speak; their voices vied with each other. "...At the solstice will come a new..." said the figure of an old bearded man. .... "... and none will come after..." said the figure of a young woman.* I realised that maybe this really is a clue. Why I think this is a clue? Because JKR says: several of the glass orbs there shattered. Meaning that in that room, there were more than two figures drifting into the air revealing the prophecies. The ones Harry heard were nearest, and these were the only ones he heard. But why did we have to hear the random bits of predictions from these two figures? There must have been several other whispers anyway, Harry must have heard a few words from the others, maybe if he lifted his head to see the others he would've. So, why those particular lines? Although the random bits are just bits of different prophecies, we heard those lines and hearing it together you read: ...At the solstice will come a new...and none will come after... It sounds like a prophecy on it's on, it matches very well, doesn't it? Or is it only me? It sounds like one prophecy with a few missing pieces. Although these two lines are from two different prophecies are not intended for harry, I felt it was the right opportunity for JKR to slip in a clue for the future books. After all, what better way to slip in a random clue in a mysterious predictions - completely unrelated to the boy-who-lived. If this really is a clue what does it mean? ...At the solstice... The solstice. It doesn't say if it is a shortest day of the year solstice or the longest day of the year solstice but I think in either book 6 or seven something will happen on a solstice.. will come a new...and none will come after... What will happen which is new and why will nothing like it happen again?? Is it a new prophecy on Trelawney's part? Number three being her last. A new character we haven't seen stepping between Harry and Voldemort? A prince? Perhaps something that happens in the last battle. <.< >.> What ever is in store in the nexts books I think these two prophetic lines are some how foreshadowing something in book 6 or 7 and it will start or end at the solstice. ****** DOODLINGTEA: Art by TeaWithVoldy http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=doodlingtea From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 02:38:06 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 02:38:06 -0000 Subject: Snape's Teaching Career - Dumbledore's idea of adult detention? In-Reply-To: <20050228132151.7299.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125374 --- Magda Grantwich wrote: > I just had a rather whimsical thought concerning another reason Snape > is at Hogwarts: it's Dumbledore's idea of an adult-appropriate > detention for Snape's foolishness in believing in pureblood > superiority when he was younger. As Catlady points out, it would > indeed be impossible not to have his perceptions altered by such an > experience. a_svirn: My impression that notion of the pureblood superiority has actually nothing to do with mugglebornes' intellectual and magical ability. Well, maybe fanatics like the womenfolk of the Black's family would insist on that but then, they are not quite sane. As far as I can recall most believers in the pureblood superiority feel that "Mudbloods" are inferior because they are "filthy", "dirty", "riffraff", not a good company to keep, and "don't know our ways" etc. They are therefore shouldn't be allowed to pursue a magical education and in effect shouldn't be allowed to be wizards and witches. In other words they should stay Muggles. No one, not even the Malfoys denies the fact that they CAN be quite able witches and wizards. The thing is that they are not WORTHY to be allowed to do magic, not that their abilities are limited. I'd say it's a social prejudice not a racial one and I don't think that years of teaching could possibly eradicate it. a_svirn From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 13:35:51 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:35:51 -0000 Subject: Department of Mysteries Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125376 Maria wrote: > > I was reading through the Beyond the Veil chapter, when I came across > something which had been already discussed before. But reading it > further, I tried deciphering it, and whether this is a clue or just > me and others over analysing the part of the book, or perhaps a red > herring on JKR's part. > > Pg 692, OOTP, English Edition: > Two figures, pearly-white as ghosts.... began to speak; their voices > vied with each other. > > "...At the solstice will come a new..." said the figure of an old > bearded man. > > .... > > "... and none will come after..." said the figure of a young woman.* > > I realised that maybe this really is a clue. (snip) > So, why those particular lines? Although the random bits are just > bits of different prophecies, we heard those lines and hearing it > together you read: > > ...At the solstice will come a new...and none will come after... > > It sounds like a prophecy on it's on, it matches very well, doesn't > it? Or is it only me? It sounds like one prophecy with a few missing > pieces. > > Although these two lines are from two different prophecies are not > intended for harry, I felt it was the right opportunity for JKR to > slip in a clue for the future books. After all, what better way to > slip in a random clue in a mysterious predictions - completely > unrelated to the boy-who-lived. > > If this really is a clue what does it mean? (snip) Ginger, who has no real answer: After the release of OoP (on June 21st, the solstice) someone thought that it may mean that "At the solstice will come a new (Harry Potter book, the Order of the Phoenix) and none will come after (cuz JKR won't be writing a 6th or 7th book." Glad to see that hasn't happened. Ginger, who wondered about that as well, but didn't come up with anything. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 1 14:01:13 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:01:13 -0000 Subject: Why did Draco do it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125377 Betsy: > One thing I'm sure of: Lucius didn't give Draco any advice in PS/SS > on whether or not befriending Harry Potter was a good idea. I'm > quite sure that Lucius is as hands off with Draco as he can > possibly be. The one scene in CoS where we see Draco and Lucius > interacting made very clear (to me anyway) that Lucius doesn't > think Draco quite measures up. I imagine Lucius is one of those > parents who dislikes children and are not pleased that their > offspring have to go through that rather drippy and disgusting > stage. (I think that part of Draco's hero-worship of his father > springs from his constant attempts to win Lucius's notice and > approval.) So I think Lucius would be a little too busy ignoring > and avoiding his son to sit down and give him some fatherly advice > on who to hang with at school. SSSusan: Hmmmm. I'm curious why you're so sure of this. We *have* seen Lucius make a remark which shows that he expects more from Draco and isn't afraid to note it in public. OTOH, we have also heard Draco say he thinks he'll go bully his dad into buying him what he wants. I don't think that's all huff & puff. And Draco *does* end up with those brooms, does he not? I think one could argue that Draco, while definitely not having daddy totally wrapped around his finger, does have his ear and does make his desires known, often enough to have built confidence that he can whine or bully or demand things and expect to get them. I also am not convinced that Lucius stayed totally out of fatherly advising where Harry was concerned. As you say, Draco is likely curious about Harry, having heard about him for years. At the time of their departure on the Hogwarts Express, no one really knows just how Harry has turned out, what he's like, where his loyalties might lie. Heck, no one even knows if Harry knows his own story enough to know what loyalties people would be referring to. So, yes, I'll bet you're right that Draco is curious. However, I think Lucius is plenty curious, too. I'll bet he's *dying* to get a report on Harry Potter. I could quite easily imagine a scene, prior to school's starting, when Lucius suggests it might be WISE of Draco to introduce himself to Harry Potter, see what the kid is like, see how he behaves. In fact, I can't imagine any reason *not* to imagine a scene like that. It'd be easy enough, as they enjoy their evening meal perhaps, to talk about his surely being sorted into Slytherin, how he should be sure to hook up with Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, et al., and how it sure would be interesting to know just what Harry Potter is made of.... Siriusly Snapey Susan From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 1 14:17:12 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:17:12 -0000 Subject: Riddle's Bones In-Reply-To: <1ea.378a268f.2f54f1c0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125378 martyb worte: Towards the end when Lord Voldemort is making his potion to revive him he uses his father's bone that he dug up. How is it that his father's bones are still in his coffin? I do not know much about decay and that sort of thing > but how long do bones stay underground? If Voldemort was at school many years ago, and he killed his father during those years, then how is it his > father's parts are still around? Hannah: Well, think about all the skeletons that get dug up in ancient burial grounds that are still intact. I don't know the actual timespan it takes for bones to degrade, but we're looking at thousands of years. The outer part of bones are made of mineral deposits, such as calcium, and so last much longer than the soft and squidgy degradable parts. Riddle Sr's bones would definitely still be around after a mere 50 years or so! Hannah From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 1 14:38:54 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:38:54 -0000 Subject: Why did Draco do it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125379 > Betsy wrote: > > One thing I'm sure of: Lucius didn't give Draco any advice in PS/SS > > on whether or not befriending Harry Potter was a good idea. So I think Lucius would be a little too busy ignoring > > and avoiding his son to sit down and give him some fatherly advice > > on who to hang with at school. > > > SSSusan replied: > I also am not convinced that Lucius stayed totally out of fatherly > advising where Harry was concerned. > So, yes, I'll bet you're right that Draco is curious. However, I > think Lucius is plenty curious, too. I'll bet he's *dying* to get a report on Harry Potter. > > I could quite easily imagine a scene, prior to school's starting, > when Lucius suggests it might be WISE of Draco to introduce himself > to Harry Potter, see what the kid is like, see how he behaves. In > fact, I can't imagine any reason *not* to imagine a scene like that. > It'd be easy enough, as they enjoy their evening meal perhaps, to > talk about his surely being sorted into Slytherin, how he should be > sure to hook up with Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, et al., and how it sure > would be interesting to know just what Harry Potter is made of.... Hannah now: I always think the easiest way to decide how Lucius would have acted in a certain situation is to ask 'what would be in it for him?' I think Lucius will use whatever opportunity he can to increase his power and standing in the wizard community. Having a son that's friends with Harry Potter would likely benefit Lucius, so I think it's safe to say he had a little word with Draco before the latter left for Hogwarts. As SSSusan says, it would be easy for Lucius to suggest to Draco that it would be a good idea to get to know the 'Boy-Who-Lived' better. Even in CoS, after a year of bitter rivalry between the two boys, Lucius is heard telling Draco it is 'not prudent to appear less than fond' of Harry. I think that Lucius almost certainly did try and influence Draco on the matter of befriending Harry. Not because it may benefit Draco, but because it would benefit Lucius. Hannah From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 14:45:48 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:45:48 -0000 Subject: Department of Mysteries Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125380 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maria" wrote: > If this really is a clue what does it mean? > > ...At the solstice... > > The solstice. It doesn't say if it is a shortest day of the year > solstice or the longest day of the year solstice but I think in > either book 6 or seven something will happen on a solstice.. > > will come a new...and none will come after... > > What will happen which is new and why will nothing like it happen > again?? Geoff: Looking into the remains of the cup of tea I have just finished, the answer really appears to be quite easy. JKR intends to have Book 7 published at a solstice. Winter solstice 2005 or Summer solstice 2006 would be quite acceptable (please!!!). It fulfils the combined prophecy completely. :-) From stbjohn2 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 15:21:10 2005 From: stbjohn2 at yahoo.com (stbjohn2) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:21:10 -0000 Subject: Department of Mysteries Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125381 "Maria" > wrote: > > > If this really is a clue what does it mean? > > > > ...At the solstice... > > > > The solstice. It doesn't say if it is a shortest day of the year > > solstice or the longest day of the year solstice but I think in > > either book 6 or seven something will happen on a solstice.. > > > > will come a new...and none will come after... > > > > What will happen which is new and why will nothing like it happen > > again?? > > Geoff: > Looking into the remains of the cup of tea I have just finished, the > answer really appears to be quite easy. > > JKR intends to have Book 7 published at a solstice. Winter solstice > 2005 or Summer solstice 2006 would be quite acceptable (please!!!). > > It fulfils the combined prophecy completely. Sandy: I take it as 2 prophecies, one each about the last two books "At the solstice shall come a new..." Yes, I know 16 July is not a solstice day, but the announcement about the new book came on the winter solstice (or within a day of it), and in terms of interpreting prophecies, I think that works. (Prophecies are open for interpretation, I think we all agree?) "And none shall come after" refers to book 7, as it completes the septology, and she plans to write no more HP. (tho I'm not sure I'm ready for it to be the end.) From pegruppel at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 15:35:26 2005 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:35:26 -0000 Subject: Riddle's Bones In-Reply-To: <1ea.378a268f.2f54f1c0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, martyb1130 at a... wrote: >. . . then how is it his > father's parts are still around? > > "martyb1130" > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Peg: Another poster said that they dig up bones all the time--absolutely! Bones are very durable items, they're *mostly* calcium. When protected from water, predators, and other elements, as in a coffin, there should still be enough bone available for Peter to work the spell. From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 17:22:45 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:22:45 -0000 Subject: Department of Mysteries Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125383 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maria" wrote: > > I was reading through the Beyond the Veil chapter, ... > Pg 692, OOTP, English Edition: > > *A jet of red light had shot out of Bellatrix Lestrange's wand, but > Malfoy had deflected it; his spell caused hers to hit the shelf a > foot to the left of harry and several of the glass orbs there > shattered. > > Two figures, pearly-white as ghosts.... began to speak; their voices > vied with each other. > > "...At the solstice will come a new..." said the figure of an old > bearded man. > > .... > > "... and none will come after..." said the figure of a young woman.* I've read the other esponses to your post, but I think we need to keep in mind WHERE these orbs were before they broke. Harry had just picked up his orb when he was confronted by the Death Eaters. He had not departed that Aisle when Belatrix cast her spell, and the text notes that the orbs that were shattered were near Harry's left shoulder. We don't know how the orbs are catalogued, but I would assume they are shelved according to the dates they were recorded. This would mean these were from about the same time as each other, maybe a few months before or after Harry's prophesy. The question we should be asking is what happened on the Solstice either before Harry was born or just after his birth, maybe as late as when he was almost 1. We know Dudley was born June 23, the same year as Harry. Not exactly the Solstice, but very close. What else happened on or near June 21 or December 22 of that year or the years just before or after? From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 17:48:16 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:48:16 -0000 Subject: "Erm.." in OOtP (Vampire!Snape whose side you on NOw?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > > Ok now knowing that JKR *wrote* the "Erm.. I don't think so." answer > to Vampire!Snape I decided to do a little research. > > So far A quick skip through OOtP reveals TWO meanings of Erm... in > JKR's writing. > > So here it is folks The OOtP verdict on "Erm.. I don't think so." > > Jo is either VERY nervous. > > Or > > She is ummm telling a little white lie. > > Look below to see the evidence for yourself. > > Valky > > > 'Harry?' said Hermione tentatively. > 'Well done, Hermione,' said Harry, so heartily it did not sound like > his voice at all, and, still not looking at her, 'brilliant. > Prefect. Great.' > Thanks,' said Hermione. 'Erm - Harry - could I borrow Hedwig so I > can tell Mum and Dad? They'll be really pleased - I mean prefect is > something they can understand.' > > > Cho had called him brave she did not hate him for being alive > Of course, she had preferred Cedric, he knew that though if he'd > only asked her to the Ball before Cedric had, things might have > turned out differently she had seemed sincerely sorry that she'd > had to refuse when Harry asked her > 'Morning,' Harry said brightly to Ron and Hermione as he joined them > at the Gryffindor table in the Great Hall. > 'What are you looking so pleased about?' said Ron, eyeing Harry in > surprise. > 'Erm Quidditch later,' said Harry happily, pulling a large platter > of bacon and eggs towards him. > > > 'Harry,' she said timidly, 'don't you see? This this is exactly why > we need you we need to know what it's r-really like facing him > facing V-Voldemort.' > It was the first time she had ever said Voldemort's name and it was > this, more than anything else, that calmed Harry. Still breathing > hard, he sank back into his chair, becoming aware as he did so that > his hand was throbbing horribly again. He wished he had not smashed > the bowl of Murtlap essence. > 'Well think about it,' said Hermione quietly. 'Please?' > Harry could not think of anything to say. He was feeling ashamed of > his outburst already. He nodded, hardly aware of what he was > agreeing to. > Hermione stood up. > 'Well, I'm off to bed,' she said, in a voice that was clearly as > natural as she could make it. 'Erm night.' > > > 'Er,' said Hermione, her voice slightly higher than usual out of > nerves. 'Well - er - hi.' > The group focused its attention on her instead, though eyes > continued to dart back regularly to Harry. > 'Well erm well, you know why you're here. Erm well, Harry here > had the idea - I mean' (Harry had thrown her a sharp look) 'I had > the idea. > > > 'Well, I on'y jus' got back,' said Hagrid, waving an enormous hand > at the haversack. 'Maybe someone came ter call earlier an' I > missed 'em.' > 'There are no footsteps leading away from your cabin door.' > 'Well, I I don' know why that'd be ' said Hagrid, tugging > nervously at his beard and again glancing towards the corner where > Harry, Ron and Hermione stood, as though asking for help. 'Erm ' > > > Oh, don' you worry abou' that, I've got a great load o' lessons > planned,' said Hagrid enthusiastically, scooping up his dragon steak > from the table and slapping it over his eye again. 'I've bin keepin' > a couple o' creatures saved fer yer OWL year; you wait, they're > somethin' really special.' > 'Erm special in what way?' asked Hermione tentatively > > > Hermione had tears of fury in her eyes now. > 'You hag, you evil hag!' she whispered, as Umbridge walked towards > Pansy Parkinson. 'I know what you're doing, you awful, twisted, > vicious -' > 'Erm anyway,' said Hagrid, clearly struggling to regain the flow of > his lesson, 'so - Thestrals. Yeah. Well, there's loads o' good stuff > abou' them ' > > > And what do you think of them?' she said, waving her stubby hand at > the horses, who by now had stripped a great deal of the carcass down > to bone. > 'Erm,' said Neville nervously, with a glance at Hagrid. Well, > they're er OK " > 'Students are too intimidated to admit they are frightened,' > muttered Umbridge, making another note on her clipboard. > > > 'Yeah, not bad,' said Harry. > 'Mine was pretty quiet,' said Cho. For some reason, she was looking > rather embarrassed. 'Erm there's another Hogsmeade trip next month, > did you see the notice?' > 'What? Oh, no, I haven't checked the noticeboard since I got back.' > > > 'I've been meaning to ask you for ages did Cedric - did he - in - > in - mention me at all before he died?' > This was the very last subject on earth Harry wanted to discuss, and > least of all with Cho. > 'Well - no -' he said quietly. There - there wasn't time for him to > say anything. Erm so d'you d'you get to see a lot of Quidditch in > the holidays? You support the Tornados, right?' > > > The wrap: > > Nervous = 5 times > Lying = 4 times > Antosha: Actually, I make that: Trying to think of something to say when nothing polite or appropriate comes to mind=9 times In each of those cases, the speaker (usually either Harry or Hermione) is having an emotional response--either to what is being discussed or to something else that's going on--but doesn't want to vent. So they say, "Erm..." and veer slightly. My read on the "Erm... I don't think so" quote was that she was biting back a far more... vivid response, along the lines of "Give it a break, people! You've got to be #*&$#* kidding me!" But then, that's just me. From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 18:07:37 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:07:37 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Riddle's Bones Message-ID: <128.5789f579.2f560969@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125385 In a message dated 3/1/2005 7:48:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, pegruppel at yahoo.com writes: >. . . then how is it his > father's parts are still around? > > "martyb1130" > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Peg: Another poster said that they dig up bones all the time--absolutely! Bones are very durable items, they're *mostly* calcium. When protected from water, predators, and other elements, as in a coffin, there should still be enough bone available for Peter to work the spell. ************************************** Chancie: I also wanted to add, that Voldemort's father was killed only 50 years ago. Archeologists are able to exhume the bones of mummy's and even dinosaurs, which are considerably older than 50 years ago. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ryokas at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 19:16:29 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:16:29 -0000 Subject: Riddle's Bones In-Reply-To: <128.5789f579.2f560969@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125386 > Chancie: > > I also wanted to add, that Voldemort's father was killed only 50 years > ago. Archeologists are able to exhume the bones of mummy's and even > dinosaurs, which are considerably older than 50 years ago. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To be needlessly pedantic (after all, I *am* a member here), bones do not last that long in the usual enviroments. Dinosaur bones and the like only last any amount of damage if they mineralize ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossils ) and human remains need to be specifically preserved ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy ). - Kizor From pegruppel at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 19:52:08 2005 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:52:08 -0000 Subject: Riddle's Bones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miikka R." wrote: > To be needlessly pedantic (after all, I *am* a member here), bones do > not last that long in the usual enviroments. Dinosaur bones and the > like only last any amount of damage if they mineralize ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossils ) and human remains need to be > specifically preserved ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy ). > > - Kizor Peg: You're in excellent company here-pedants all! Just to prove that I fit the mold, too, I'll agree on one point and disagree with the other. Fossil bones of any species have been replaced by minerals other than calcium carbonate--very true. But. Bones in general, and human bones in particular, don't require any special treatment to remain largely intact for many, many years. The bones of the Romanovs, among others, have been retrieved from burial sites much older than fifty years, with no particular efforts at preservation (or even respect). Mummification was (and is) meant to preserve soft tissues. All right, now I've probably overdone it . . . Peg From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 21:40:25 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 21:40:25 -0000 Subject: Riddle's Bones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125388 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miikka R." wrote: > > > Chancie: > > > > I also wanted to add, that Voldemort's father was killed only 50 > years > > ago. Archeologists are able to exhume the bones of mummy's and > even > > dinosaurs, which are considerably older than 50 years ago. - Kizor > To be needlessly pedantic (after all, I *am* a member here), bones do > not last that long in the usual enviroments. Dinosaur bones and the > like only last any amount of damage if they mineralize ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossils ) and human remains need to be > specifically preserved ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy ). Geoff: It depends on what you mean by the "usual environments". In my area of Somerset, there has been great excitement in just the past week because, in the county town of Taunton, builders working on a new site discovered the foundations of the old Priory, which was destroyed ij the time of Henry VIII (ie in the 1530s or 1540s) and also found several well-preserved skeletons dating from the period. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 22:04:46 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 22:04:46 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy (was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125389 >>Betsy: >One thing I'm sure of: Lucius didn't give Draco any advice in PS/SS on whether or not befriending Harry Potter was a good idea< >>SSSusan: >Hmmmm. I'm curious why you're so sure of this. We *have* seen Lucius make a remark which shows that he expects more from Draco and isn't afraid to note it in public. OTOH, we have also heard Draco say he thinks he'll go bully his dad into buying him what he wants. I don't think that's all huff & puff. And Draco *does* end up with those brooms, does he not?< Betsy: Draco gets his broom one year later at the proper age and when he's planning on trying out for the Slytherin quidditch team. I'm quite sure he got a good broom because it would be unacceptable for a Malfoy to fly school brooms when it's no longer a school requirement. I can't point to specific canon to show why I'm so sure Lucius has little to do with Draco. It's more a feeling I get based on what Draco says, how he acts, and the few times we see the two interact. Draco is not pampered by his parents. When he is introduced, he's been left alone in a shop while his parents split up to get the other shopping errands done (including buying his wand, which I thought was an Ollivander no-no). This is not the actions of people thrilled and excited about their only son's upcoming trip to Hogwarts. It's what people do when they want to move as quickly as possible to get an annoying job done. In CoS, Lucius acts like he's been *burdened* by his son's company. (Maybe because they're going to have to buy him a broom for quidditch? Maybe because Lucius knows this is his one opportunity to slip the diary to a Weasley child?) And he interacts with Draco as little as possible. Also in CoS, Draco is left at Hogwarts for Christmas. This after mocking Harry's lack of loving parents the Christmas before. I'm sure Lucius was looking for updates on the Chamber Monster situation (and way to worry about his son's safety, by the way) but none the less, Draco is not brought home for Christmas. Whenever Draco quotes his father, it sounds like pronouncements made from on high, not shared wisdom from private conversations. In GoF, when Draco talks about his father wanting to send him to Durmstrang, it sounds more like Draco either overheard the conversation or it was talked about over his head at the dinnertable. I don't get the sense that Draco's input was asked for or allowed at all. At the World Quidditch Cup, Draco doesn't have a friend along with him. He sits between his parents, and Harry doesn't hear from him again. Was he even allowed to cheer during the game? When the Hogwarts train arrives and leaves the London station, we never have any mention of Draco being met or dropped off by his parents. The only person who talks about the closeness of the Malfoy family is Draco, and after a little while it seems to become a case of protesting too much. At least in my opinion. >>SSSusan: >I could quite easily imagine a scene, prior to school's starting, when Lucius suggests it might be WISE of Draco to introduce himself to Harry Potter, see what the kid is like, see how he behaves. In fact, I can't imagine any reason *not* to imagine a scene like that.< Betsy: It's near impossible for me, because I just don't see Lucius interacting with his son at that age. I think Draco sat with his parents at meal times (possibly only dinner with Lucius), to better learn proper table manners, but I think he was expected to keep quiet. When Lucius *does* suggest to his son that it might be wise to appear to be Harry's friend, in CoS, it sounds like this might be the first he mentioned it. I can imagine as Draco gets older, and less childlike, Lucius may start having more conversations with him. But I imagine they'd be fairly stilted and one sided. Lucius passing down Malfoy wisdom, not getting to know his son. Again, there's no specific canon for this, so I doubt I'm persuading anyone, but this is how I see it. And it's so clear to me, that it would be very hard for someone (barring JKR) to get me to see it differently. >>Hannah: >I always think the easiest way to decide how Lucius would have acted in a certain situation is to ask 'what would be in it for him?' >I think that Lucius almost certainly did try and influence Draco on the matter of befriending Harry. Not because it may benefit Draco, but because it would benefit Lucius.< Betsy: I'm not sure if Lucius would see that Harry Potter being attached to his family would be a good thing. For one thing, Harry's the enemy of his master. For another, unless Lucius has knowledge of the prophecy (which I don't think he had in PS/SS), he would see Harry as being famous for something he *did* not for power he'll have in the *future*. I would say that the WW is full of political families who see the benefit of powerful friends. The only people who really reached out to Harry were the Weasleys (totally non-political, except for Percy) and a Muggleborn who has no knowledge of Wizard politics. I think it's safe to assume that most of the WW, while grateful to Harry and fascinated by him, did not see him as a future power broker or even a pawn. Not in the beginning, anyway. As to curiosity (which I think was mentioned by SSSusan, and I think I snipped a little too eagerly), we're forgetting one thing. The best source of information on Harry Potter that Lucius has is Severus Snape. We, the readers, know that Snape is Dumbledore's creature, but Lucius is not aware of this. And who better to tell him all about a student at Hogwarts than one of the Hogwarts' professors? Snape would certainly have a clearer view of Harry than a boy of eleven, and Snape could share the latest staff-room gossip about Harry. No, I'm quite sure that Draco's interest in Harry is influenced only by Draco. Lucius had nothing to do with it. Betsy From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 23:02:10 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:02:10 -0000 Subject: Department of Mysteries Prophecies - Smashing Orbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maria" wrote: > > ... reading ... the Beyond the Veil chapter, ... ... I tried > deciphering it, and whether this is a clue, or just me and others > over analysing the part of the book, or perhaps a red > herring on JKR's part. > > Pg 692, OOTP, English Edition: > > ... several of the glass orbs there shattered. > > Two figures, pearly-white as ghosts.... began to speak; their voices > vied with each other. > > "...At the solstice will come a new..." said the figure of an old > bearded man. > > .... > > "... and none will come after..." said the figure of a young woman.* > - - end quote - - > > I realised that maybe this really is a clue. > > ...edited... > > Maria bboyminn: Sadly, I feel like the Grinch who stole Christmas; I think you are over analysing. First on a tangental point, why did several Prophecy Orbs break, but only two spoke? Remember Harry's earlier description (in narative) of what he saw in the Hall of Prophecies; rows and rows of glass orbs, some shining bright, other dull and dark as burnt-out lightbulbs. I'm guessing that the 'burnt-out' orbs are prophecies that have expired. That is, they have been fulfilled, and are no longer relevant; therefore, they are dark. When analysing the books, we can approach it from two angles, internal and external. Internal means we place ourselves inside the books as if it were the real world, and analyze characters and situations from a reality perspective. External means we analyze the books as readers, aware that it is fiction created by an author. I think this is one of those times when we need to use external analysis. The reason for having the prophecies break is for the author to introduce the concept of what happens when they break, so that later when Harry/Neville break Harry's prophecy, we will understand what is happening, and know (or at least think) that in the chaos, the Prophecy will /play/ unheard. Internally, I think the only purpose of the scene is to give Harry the idea of smashing the Orbs and the shelves in order to create a distraction that will allow them to escape the DE's. The two partial prophecies we hear are of no value in substance. They are simply 'spooky' prophecy-sounding phrases. That's /just/ my opinion but ...none the less ...that is my opinion. Steve/bboyminn "Smashing Orbs" - a great name for a punk rock band. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Mar 1 23:46:56 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:46:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Riddle's Bones Message-ID: <12a.5812f638.2f5658f0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125391 In a message dated 3/1/2005 2:30:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, ryokas at hotmail.com writes: bones do not last that long in the usual enviroments. Dinosaur bones and the like only last any amount of damage if they mineralize ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossils ) and human remains need to be specifically preserved ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy ). ========== Sherrie here: A few years ago (1996), the skeletal remains of a Civil War soldier were discovered still buried in the Railroad Cut on the Gettysburg battlefield, when they were exposed by heavy rains. Though there was no way to tell the soldier's allegiance, it was sufficiently intact to know that he was killed by a shot to the head. They weren't mineralized (133 years isn't really long enough for that, I don't think), and they certainly weren't preserved in any way. I don't think it beyond belief that the bones of Tom Riddle, Sr., would be relatively intact after only 50 years. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 2 00:22:41 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 00:22:41 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy (was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125392 Betsy: > Draco is not pampered by his parents. When he is introduced, he's > been left alone in a shop while his parents split up to get the > other shopping errands done (including buying his wand, which I > thought was an Ollivander no-no). This is not the actions of people > thrilled and excited about their only son's upcoming trip to > Hogwarts. It's what people do when they want to move as quickly as > possible to get an annoying job done. SSSusan: OR it's the actions of parents who never *make* their child do anything for himself, but rather do everything *for* him, which is how I took the shopping outing. Betsy: > In CoS, Lucius acts like he's been *burdened* by his son's company. > And he interacts with Draco as little as possible. Also in CoS, > Draco is left at Hogwarts for Christmas. This after mocking > Harry's lack of loving parents the Christmas before. I'm sure > Lucius was looking for updates on the Chamber Monster situation > (and way to worry about his son's safety, by the way) but none the > less, Draco is not brought home for Christmas. SSSusan: Right. I think Lucius wanted progress reports from Draco. He didn't want to be *out* of the know. So Draco had a function to serve for Daddykins, which is why he stayed. I don't think they left him there because they couldn't be bothered with him but because he could be useful. Betsy: > Whenever Draco quotes his father, it sounds like pronouncements > made from on high, not shared wisdom from private conversations. SSSusan: To me they sound like episodes of *bragging.* As in, "MY father [who is better than your father, of course] said X or Y, and it's IMPORTANT, which is why I'm pronouncing it as if he were a king." I don't think the family is close in the sense of 3 people who just love spending all their free time together or who sit and have heart- to-heart talks all the time. I think Lucius is likely stern with Draco on occasion. So I'm with you that far. But I don't get the sense that Draco is ignored. Again, when he said he needed to go bully his dad, I believe he knew he could say this because he *had* done so successfully before. Kind of like how Dudley could have bragged to his friends that he bullied his parents into giving him two additional birthday presents. Now, I do not picture Lucius going to the extreme that Petunia & Vernon did in that situation, but I do think Draco is used to often getting his way. Betsy: > I'm not sure if Lucius would see that Harry Potter being attached > to his family would be a good thing. The only people who > really reached out to Harry were the Weasleys. SSSusan: I agree that Lucius would likely not want Harry *attached* to their family. Nor do I think that if he did tell Draco to see if he could get to know Harry it was by way of *reaching out* to Harry. Nope, not at all. In my mind it would've been more about intel gathering and strategic placement. That is, Lucius would think it was wise to find OUT what Harry was like, or for Draco to get in Harry's good graces if that was possible. It's about being in a strategic position to find things out. THAT'S how I imagine Lucius' relationship with Draco: he spoils him some, dresses him down other times, but I think he likely does look at Draco in terms of what he can offer to him [Lucius] or the cause. Draco's well placed to gather intel, for instance... This is not to say that Draco understands he's gathiring intel or that Daddy has necessarily shared why he wants information Draco. Draco blabs, so Lucius probably selectively reveals things to Draco. Betsy: > As to curiosity, we're forgetting one thing. The best source of > information on Harry Potter that Lucius has is Severus Snape. We, > the readers, know that Snape is Dumbledore's creature, but Lucius > is not aware of this. And who better to tell him all about a > student at Hogwarts than one of the Hogwarts' professors? Snape > would certainly have a clearer view of Harry than a boy of eleven, > and Snape could share the latest staff-room gossip about Harry. SSSusan: I think Snape might provide Lucius with some information, yes, assuming he is still trying to maintain his cover as a DE with Lucius. But if Snape is on DD's side for real & true, I don't think he'd be providing a full picture. Lucius wouldn't know that, of course, but I still believe Lucius would be interested in any supplemental info Draco could provide. Call it the student-level perspective, something to which Snape wouldn't necessarily be privy. In sum, I think Lucius likely does use his own son. So in that way, they're not a close-knit family, no. But I think you can pamper a child, teach him that he's special & important & one of the Entitled Ones at the same time that you don't mind using him a little to advance your own agenda. Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 03:51:44 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 03:51:44 -0000 Subject: : Moody -- "Types"--Where Are the Bleeding Hearts? by Elkins' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125393 Elkins in post 33990: This is germaine because -- given that you admit that you pretty much agree with the *content* of my post, even down to its political elements -- what I suspect you must have read that angered you so much was: "Moody's a law-and-order type, and I just don't *like* people like that, so I don't like Moody." And so (being perhaps a law-and-order type yourself?), you quite reasonably took personal offense at this and retaliated with: "Oh yeah? Well, I don't like you bleeding-heart jerk-offs either. So there!" But getting back to the Potterverse, where *are* the bleeding heart liberals in canon? Have we actually seen any at all? Fudge is certainly a head-in-the-sand appeaser -- but he also allows his dementors to perform summary executions on accused criminals, which absolutely disqualifies him for the Bleeding Heart Club. Then we have the Pensieve mob who let off Ludo Bagman -- but their behavior is motivated more by a starry-eyed worship of sports heroes than by any bleeding-heart tendencies; we later see that they are more than capable of turning hard-line, even when faced with a screaming pleading teenager in the dock. Now, Lupin would initially seem to fit the profile well enough (he's so *sensitive,* don't you know, so...well, so pale and interesting) -- but when push comes to shove in the Shrieking Shack, he is revealed to be no bleeding-heart. And the same goes for Hermione, who otherwise would seem to be the primary candidate. Really, so far in the series, Dumbledore seems to me to be the closest thing we've got to the stereotypical bleeding-heart liberal -- and he's still not all that close. Dumbledore may not like the dementors, and he may approve of giving people second chances, but he's hardly a _softie_. So where *are* the Bleeding Hearts of the wizarding world? If they exist (and surely they do), then Rowling has not yet chosen to depict them within the books. Bobby wrote in message 34004: Quote by Elkins: "I don't like Moody. I really don't care for him at all. He strikes me as the sort of person who would happily strip away all of my civil liberties, given half the chance, and I consider such men a serious threat to civilized society." Bobby: "This is the part that really set the tone for the entire post. I don't want to come across as attacking you, so let's just say that a writer for the Daily Prophet wrote the above quotation. Crouch is definitely the type of person who would rejoice in stripping away civil liberties and is a threat to civilized society, as JKR means him to be. However, Moody has spent his life fighting the bad guys for all the right reasons. He has lost his leg, his eye, and a large chunk of his nose. He never asks for thanks, or power, or riches. And what does he have to show for it? A writer for the Daily Prophet, who has never actually fought anyone from the Dark Side, believes Moody to be a threat to civilized society. Is that fair? In a perfect world Moody would be able to catch all the Death Eaters in totally legitimate way, but frankly speaking this is not a perfect world and to expect him to do that is completely out of touch with the reality of evil. This, then, goes back to my previous point about looking at motives, rather than actions, which is easier to do in Potter's world than in the real world. When I said that criminals are granted more benefit of the doubt than law-enforcement, what I meant was that criminals are always, always presumed innocent until proven guilty (which they obviously should be). However, there is no mechanism to acknowledge the fact that law-enforcement have their hands tied behind there back 99% of the time while criminals/Death Eaters do not, and if a well-meaning Auror uses questionable means to procure a Death Eater, then he is the bad guy." Alla: I have been reading Elkins writings again and I again have a couple of questions. :o) Now, from reading this post and the replies I figured that Elkins does NOT think that there are many characters in canon, whose political views are liberal enough or as close to RL liberals as possible. I also realise that Elkins does NOT like Moody after GoF. I would love to know how she feels about Moody after OOP, but I guess this is not possible, so I will take what I can get. :) Now, what we saw in GoF was fake Moody and I tend to agree with some replies to Elkins' post - we could not figure much of real Moody based on GoF. I am more interested in your views on real Moody behaviour during the first war. From what I gather Elkins is not very happy with his behaviour during that times and during Pensieve trials. Are you? I don't know. I happen to think that the mentioning that Moody always tried to bring prisoners alive is a shorthand for the fact that Moody tried to behave more or less decently even during a war. Any thoughts? Alla, who apologises if she misinterpreted any views of Elkins. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 05:16:26 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 05:16:26 -0000 Subject: : Moody -- "Types"--Where Are the Bleeding Hearts? by Elkins' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Elkins in post 33990: > This is germaine because -- given that you admit that you pretty > much agree with the *content* of my post, even down to its > political elements -- what I suspect you must have read that > angered you so much was: "Moody's a law-and-order type, and I just > don't *like* people like that, so I don't like Moody." > > And so (being perhaps a law-and-order type yourself?), you quite > reasonably took personal offense at this and retaliated with: > "Oh yeah? Well, I don't like you bleeding-heart jerk-offs either. > So there!" > > > > But getting back to the Potterverse, where *are* the bleeding > heart liberals in canon? Have we actually seen any at all? > > Fudge is certainly a head-in-the-sand appeaser -- but he also > allows his dementors to perform summary executions on accused > criminals, which absolutely disqualifies him for the Bleeding > Heart Club. > > Then we have the Pensieve mob who let off Ludo Bagman -- but their > behavior is motivated more by a starry-eyed worship of sports > heroes than by any bleeding-heart tendencies; we later see > that they are more than capable of turning hard-line, even > when faced with a screaming pleading teenager in the dock. > > Now, Lupin would initially seem to fit the profile well enough > (he's so *sensitive,* don't you know, so...well, so pale and > interesting) -- but when push comes to shove in the Shrieking > Shack, he is revealed to be no bleeding-heart. And the same > goes for Hermione, who otherwise would seem to be the primary > candidate. > > Really, so far in the series, Dumbledore seems to me to be the > closest thing we've got to the stereotypical bleeding-heart > liberal -- and he's still not all that close. Dumbledore may > not like the dementors, and he may approve of giving people > second chances, but he's hardly a _softie_. > > So where *are* the Bleeding Hearts of the wizarding world? If > they exist (and surely they do), then Rowling has not yet chosen > to depict them within the books. > > Bobby wrote in message 34004: > > Quote by Elkins: > "I don't like Moody. > I really don't care for him at all. He strikes me as the > sort of person who would happily strip away all of my civil > liberties, given half the chance, and I consider such men a > serious threat to civilized society." > > > Bobby: > > "This is the part that really set the tone for the entire post. I > don't want to come across as attacking you, so let's just say that a > writer for the Daily Prophet wrote the above quotation. Crouch is > definitely the type of person who would rejoice in stripping away > civil liberties and is a threat to civilized society, as JKR means > him to be. However, Moody has spent his life fighting the bad guys > for all the right reasons. He has lost his leg, his eye, and a large > chunk of his nose. He never asks for thanks, or power, or riches. > And what does he have to show for it? A writer for the Daily > Prophet, who has never actually fought anyone from the Dark Side, > believes Moody to be a threat to civilized society. Is that fair? > In a perfect world Moody would be able to catch all the Death Eaters > in totally legitimate way, but frankly speaking this is not a perfect > world and to expect him to do that is completely out of touch with > the reality of evil. This, then, goes back to my previous point > about looking at motives, rather than actions, which is easier to do > in Potter's world than in the real world. When I said that criminals > are granted more benefit of the doubt than law-enforcement, what I > meant was that criminals are always, always presumed innocent until > proven guilty (which they obviously should be). However, there is no > mechanism to acknowledge the fact that law-enforcement have their > hands tied behind there back 99% of the time while criminals/Death > Eaters do not, and if a well-meaning Auror uses questionable means to > procure a Death Eater, then he is the bad guy." > > > Alla: > > I have been reading Elkins writings again and I again have a couple > of questions. :o) > > Now, from reading this post and the replies I figured that Elkins > does NOT think that there are many characters in canon, whose > political views are liberal enough or as close to RL liberals as > possible. > > I also realise that Elkins does NOT like Moody after GoF. I would > love to know how she feels about Moody after OOP, but I guess this > is not possible, so I will take what I can get. :) > > Now, what we saw in GoF was fake Moody and I tend to agree with some > replies to Elkins' post - we could not figure much of real Moody > based on GoF. > > I am more interested in your views on real Moody behaviour during > the first war. From what I gather Elkins is not very happy with his > behaviour during that times and during Pensieve trials. Are you? > > I don't know. I happen to think that the mentioning that Moody > always tried to bring prisoners alive is a shorthand for the fact > that Moody tried to behave more or less decently even during a war. > > Any thoughts? > > Alla, > > who apologises if she misinterpreted any views of Elkins. It's hard to guess Moody's politics, since we see so little of the actual Moody. And what we see betrays more about his attitude than his political leanings. BUT! We do in fact have one very clear example of a bleeding heart liberal (a label that I myself proudly bear): Hermione. If bleeding-heart liberalism is characterized by rooting for the underdog, support of rights, opposition of oppression that is based on mere tradition--the tradition that conservatives are trying to conserve--then SPEW seems like a BHL movement to me! Antosha From naama_gat at hotmail.com Wed Mar 2 07:30:16 2005 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 07:30:16 -0000 Subject: Dating Muggleborns(was: Where does it say that Molly is a pureblood fanatic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125395 > > >>Naama: > >Since there's no other indication that Molly entertains anti- > Muggleborn prejudice, all of the above are just as likely. More > likely, in fact, given Ron's loud and completely unambigous position > on the subject of Muggleborns.< > > Betsy: > Except of course, that there *is* other indications that Molly > doesn't fully trust Muggles. She expresses it by her obvious > disapproval of her husband's fasination with Muggles, her refusal to > have Muggle items in her house, her successful efforts to keep her > children *away* from Muggles (though they live right by a Muggle > village), and her introductory statement in PS/SS. > > There's nothing that suggests Molly hates Muggles or that she doesn't > think Muggleborn wizards should go to Hogwarts, but there is enough > to hint that she may be a tad suspicious of Muggles and therefore > Muggleborns. And on the other hand, I don't recall Molly ever > expressing a distaste for brown hair, large teeth, or non-Quidditch > fans, etc. > >From what we've seen, Molly's attitude towards Muggles is the prevalent, normal one in the WW (which we see in McGonagall's description of the Dursleys in the beginning of PS, for instance). It's kind of the premise of the books and the way *JKR* uses the term. Muggles are clueless, magic-less, afraid of the different. The divide between Muggles and wizards is unambigous and unproblematic. The thing that JKR portrays as problematic is the attitude to Muggleborns. It may seem psychologically sound that if you look down on Muggles (as the entire WW does), you would look down on Muggleborns too. However, that is not the case in the Potterverse. Some do that and some don't. Those who do are both wrong and evil. Basically what I've tried to say is that, yes, Molly shows the normal condescending attitude to Muggles, but that doesn't necessarily imply (in the Potterverse) that this "taints" her view of Muggleborns. So, I repeat: There is no indication whatsoever that Molly harbours anti-Muggleborn feelings or attitudes. Therefore, her reaction to the Skeeter article can be explained (if such an explanation is even necessary) via any number of factors, without Hermione being a Muggleborn having any priority over the others. Naama From kempermentor at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 07:35:34 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 07:35:34 -0000 Subject: : Moody -- "Types"--Where Are the Bleeding Hearts? by Elkins' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125396 Alla wrote: I am more interested in your views on real Moody behaviour during the first war. From what I gather Elkins is not very happy with his behaviour during that times and during Pensieve trials. Are you? I don't know. I happen to think that the mentioning that Moody always tried to bring prisoners alive is a shorthand for the fact that Moody tried to behave more or less decently even during a war. Any thoughts? Antosha responded to Alla: It's hard to guess Moody's politics, since we see so little of the actual Moody. And what we see betrays more about his attitude than his political leanings. BUT! We do in fact have one very clear example of a bleeding heart liberal (a label that I myself proudly bear): Hermione. If bleeding-heart liberalism is characterized by rooting for the underdog, support of rights, opposition of oppression that is based on mere tradition--the tradition that conservatives are trying to conserve-- then SPEW seems like a BHL movement to me! Kemper now: Moody my impression from GoF pensieve scenes is that he is a bit resentful of some, if not most, of the DE's and of Crouch letting people off that he knows without a doubt are guilty. Moody is under the impression in the Pensieve that Crouch will let Karkaroff. Why is Moody under that impression? Probably because Crouch has done so in the past Moody spent 6 months tracking Karkaroff. He believes Karkaroff will be set free, so he's probably feeling a sense of futility with his work. So what do most of us do when our job is pissing us off? We vent, and we say things we don't necessarily believe. Moody is venting a bit to DD. Bleeding Heart Liberals I don't see any in the books. I see two, possibly three, Progressives: Dumbledore and Arthur Weasley, possibly Lily. Hermione is definitely Progressive leaning, but she needs a mentor. In GoF, SPEW has good intentions, but Hermione is placing her value system onto a different species and a different culture that is not ready to hear what an outsider has to say about their lifestyle. In OoP, she attempts to trick the House Elves into freedom. This `trick' does not allow the House Elf to be in choice. The `trick' is unethical and therefore wrong. Hermione Granger is no Harriet Tubman (for those having grown-up outside the US, I encourage you to Google her and learn her story). Harriet did not free slaves who did not want to be freed. -Kemper From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Tue Mar 1 07:14:57 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 07:14:57 -0000 Subject: Why did Draco do it? / Dudley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125397 > Betsy: > Draco was interested in being Harry's friend from the moment he saw > him, before he knew who Harry was. For some reason, all his attempts > at friendship were rebuffed in the dress shop, so I think Draco saw > this as an opportunity to try again. Of course, since he's not sure > what went wrong in the first place, he does an equally poor job on > the train. I've always thought that what puts Harry off Draco in the beginning, and keeps him hostile, is Draco's eery resemblance to Dudley in character and upbringing. OK, Dudley does his own beating up and Draco needs his hit squad, but apart from that ... Indulged by parents with material goods, but there's no sign of the parents interacting with their sons as people. Spoilt rotten, babied, prone to use parents and therefore to use other people, but with the insecurity that makes them hit out, show off, whine, and resent anyone they can't control. Both boys are victims of child abuse, psychological of course, and have difficulty in developing an adult personality, since being Mummy and Daddy's little boy has always worked for them. Except it hasn't ... but it's all they know about and they lack the gumption to move on. So, until D and/or D can demonstrate some kind of growth in self-knowledge, I don't expect Harry to look on them with any warmth. Deborah From virgivilla at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 23:09:01 2005 From: virgivilla at yahoo.com (virgivilla) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:09:01 -0000 Subject: who is the HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125398 Sorry for my English. I'm from Venezuela. Im been reading your posts but I cant find anything about who you think is the half blood prince... excuse me if you have already talk about this, but I would like to know what other HP fans thinks about this. I think the half blood prince is Godric Griffindor, but every one I have told this thinks Im crazy. I think this because JKR says that the second book and the 6th are related so I think a character of book 2 must be the HBP, but JKR says that it is not Harry, non Voldemort or Hagrid or Neville. I also think the griffindor sword that Harry uses to defeat the basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets is the kind of sword a prince would have. I would like to know your opinion because obviously you all know a lot more of HP than me. "virgivilla" From shalimar07 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 15:54:37 2005 From: shalimar07 at aol.com (mumweasley7) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:54:37 -0000 Subject: Happy birthday, Ron Weasley! / wishes for Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125399 Alla wrote: > So, Ron is March baby. ;) > > I wish him to survive the series intact, become a famous Quidditch > player, that is if he still wants it at the end, marry Hermione > (if they both want it at the end) and live happily ever after. :) I also want to wish a Happy Birthday to one of my favorite characters. My wish is that he will learn to be happy and thankful for what he has. I'd also like to say I think great things are on the horizon for our favorite scardy cat! Since it is March and St. Patrick's Day is just around the corner, I'd like to offer this little tid bit of information that might (or might not) shed some light on this character. I couldn't figure out why Molly is always giving him things he doesn't like..ie..color of clothing, food...etc. Then I stumbled on the following information about Irish traditions. According to the article written by an Irishman, Corned Beef first turns up in the Vision of MacConglinne, a 12th-century poem which describes Irish food as it was eaten at the time. The poet tell us that Corned Beef is a delicacy given to a king, in an attempt to conjure "the demon of gluttony" out of his belly. This delicacy status makes little sense until one understands that beef was not a major part of the Irish diet until the last century or so. The color Maroon is a color of Royalty. Ron also lives in the Top portion of his house. Would someone like to put all this together? MumWeasley From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Tue Mar 1 17:46:25 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:46:25 -0000 Subject: Why did Dumbledore call for Winky? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125400 At the end of GOF, after the fake Mad-Eye Moody was caught but before the polyjuice portion had worn off and he changed back to Barty Crouch, Jr., Dumbledore had Winky brought from the kitchen. How did he know that Winky would know anything about what was going on? There was no apparent reason to suspect that the Crouch family was involved. So what did Dumbledore know and when did he know it? Richard Jones From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 19:47:10 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:47:10 -0000 Subject: Department of Mysteries Prophecies - Row 97=1997 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125401 Maria wrote: I've read the other esponses to your post, but I think we need to keep in mind WHERE these orbs were before they broke. Harry had just picked up his orb when he was confronted by the Death Eaters. He had not departed that Aisle when Belatrix cast her spell, and the text notes that the orbs that were shattered were near Harry's left shoulder. We don't know how the orbs are catalogued, but I would assume they are shelved according to the dates they were recorded. Tinglinger/Samnanya: I don't think that is the case. Given that JKR loves riddles, it is more consistent to assume that the prophecies are catalogued chronologically by the date they are predicted to OCCUR. Row 97 would correspond to 1997 (or even all years of the form xx97 since they are stacked very high up) 1997 would correspond to the year that Harry ends his sixth year at Hogwarts and starts his seventh year there - the perfect time for Harry to confront the dark lord once and for all. There are two solstices during the year, so I assume that the confrontation(s) with the dark lord will be either at the end of Harry's sixth year or the middle of his seventh year at Hogwarts. I had posted on this extensively in 2003/2004 and will find the post(s) if anyone is really interested. From tekayjaye at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 20:10:14 2005 From: tekayjaye at yahoo.com (tekayjaye) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:10:14 -0000 Subject: Riddle's Bones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125402 > Peg wrote: > Fossil bones of any species have been replaced by minerals other > than calcium carbonate--very true. > > But. Bones in general, and human bones in particular, don't require > any special treatment to remain largely intact for many, many years. > The bones of the Romanovs, among others, have been retrieved from > burial sites much older than fifty years, with no particular efforts > at preservation (or even respect). Tekay now: While all of this is very fascinating, I want to go to the text: "'Bone of the father, unknowingly given, you will renew your son!' The surface of the grave at Harry's feet cracked. Horrified, Harry watched as a fine trickle of dust rose into the air at Wormtails' command and fell softly into the cauldron" (GoF, US, 641). So, what came from Riddle's grave was bone dust, not an intact bone. Even if the bones had disintegrated, the dust is enough to make the spell work. My two knuts, of course. Tekay From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 09:08:50 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:08:50 -0000 Subject: Who is the HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125403 "virgivilla" wrote: "I think the half blood prince is Godric Gryffindor, but every one I have told this thinks I'm crazy. I think this because JKR says that the second book and the 6th are related so I think a character of book 2 must be the HBP, but JKR says that it is not Harry, not Voldemort or Hagrid or Neville. I also think the Gryffindor sword that Harry uses to defeat the basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets is the kind of sword a prince would have." I've always thought it might be Victor Krum. JKR mentioned him again in OOTP, so he must be important for some reason. Also in a quote she said he would appear again. He's just mysterious enough. My vote is Victor Krum. "bbkkyy55" From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Mar 2 09:42:51 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 04:42:51 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: : Moody -- "Types"--Where Are the Bleeding Hearts? by... Message-ID: <86.2304e11c.2f56e49b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125404 In a message dated 3/2/2005 12:21:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com writes: BUT! We do in fact have one very clear example of a bleeding heart liberal (a label that I myself proudly bear): Hermione. If bleeding-heart liberalism is characterized by rooting for the underdog, support of rights, opposition of oppression that is based on mere tradition--the tradition that conservatives are trying to conserve--then SPEW seems like a BHL movement to me! =================== Sherrie here: You know, I was watching something on the History Channel the other night when I was forcibly reminded of Hermione's SPEW campaign. The show was on the old ten-in-one circus sideshows, and the "freaks" who appeared in them, many of them for VERY good money. Sometime after WWII a movement began to stop the "exploitation" of these people - whether they wanted to be "freed" or not. Most of the freaks were in the "or not" category - they'd found a way to make their differences work, to be self-supporting, to have their own sort of dignity, and most important perhaps, their own community. Then along come these people who don't CARE about any of that, WE know what's best for you, shut down the sideshows...as a result of which, most of these people lost their livelihoods and became burdens to the state. My immediate thought was, "Hermione and the house elves!" The vast majority of the house elves don't want to be freed, either - but that doesn't stop Hermione. She's got the bit in her teeth, don't bother her with the facts. Sherrie (who's a lot like Hermione in many ways - but usually researches her causes first...) "My best friend is the man who'll give me a book I ain't read." - A. Lincoln [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 2 12:11:51 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:11:51 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy (was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125405 > Betsy: > > Draco is not pampered by his parents. When he is introduced, he's > > been left alone in a shop while his parents split up to get the > > other shopping errands done (including buying his wand, which I > > thought was an Ollivander no-no). This is not the actions of people thrilled and excited about their only son's upcoming trip to > > Hogwarts. It's what people do when they want to move as quickly as possible to get an annoying job done. > SSSusan: > OR it's the actions of parents who never *make* their child do > anything for himself, but rather do everything *for* him, which is > how I took the shopping outing. > Hannah: You argue your case very well, Betsy :-) But I'm still with SSSusan on this one. Draco *is* pampered by his parents. Aside from the argument SSSusan gives above, look at the broom buying (OK, so he wanted Draco to have a nice broom for the family honour, as you say yourself, but did he need to get them for the entire team as well?) And the constant packages from home full of sweets. Those are doubtless from his mother, but *she* at least is spoiling him. And who's to say Draco didn't *want* to stay at school for Christmas in CoS, since we know he himself was trying to find out who the heir of Slytherin was? If his parents didn't want him around at Christmas, why does he go home in PS/SS and PoA? And why did Narcissa not want him to Durmstrang because it was so far away, if she at least didn't want him to come home for holidays? > Betsy: > > I'm not sure if Lucius would see that Harry Potter being attached > > to his family would be a good thing. The only people who > > really reached out to Harry were the Weasleys. Hannah: But Lucius, at this point, is trying to appear respectable. He's schmoozing politicians, such as Fudge, who was quite keen on Harry at that time, making donations to St Mungo's, etc. He's practically renounced his old 'master' by claiming he'd been under the Imperio curse when performing whatever crimes they accused him of the first time round. As far as I can see, Lucius has behaved in character, and switched to the winning side as fast as possible. So I don't think he'd worry what LV would say. I think having Harry Potter as his son's friend would be a huge boon for Lucius. For one thing, Harry has grown up away from the wizarding world, so he's a 'blank canvas' in terms of wizarding opinions. Just look at the huge influence Hagrid had on Harry early on, simply by being the first contact he had with the world. Imagine if Lucius Malfoy had got himself into the position that the Weasleys actually hold with Harry - he could have indoctrinated him with his own prejudices. I'm not saying that this would work, knowing Harry isn't all that daft. But Lucius would certainly have wanted to try. As for it only being the Weasleys that reached out to Harry... I don't know if it was only them, more a case that they got in there first. Even by the time that Draco sought him out on the train, Harry was firmly in the Weasleys' 'camp.' Then he got Sorted into Gryffindor... families hoping to entice him onto the 'Dark side' had their work cut out almost straight away. If Harry hadn't met Ron, if he had been treated kindly by the Dursleys and Dudley, if he'd been Sorted into Slytherin... things would have been very different. > SSSusan: > THAT'S how I imagine Lucius' relationship with Draco: he spoils him some, dresses him down other times, but I think he likely does look at Draco in terms of what he can offer to him [Lucius] or the > cause. Draco's well placed to gather intel, for instance... Hannah: I left that in because it's a great summary of how I see Lucius' relationship with Draco. > Betsy: > > As to curiosity, we're forgetting one thing. The best source of > > information on Harry Potter that Lucius has is Severus Snape. Snape would certainly have a clearer view of Harry than a boy of eleven, and Snape could share the latest staff-room gossip about Harry. Hannah: Snape, give a clear view of Harry? If Snape were any other teacher, then I would agree with that. But we know that Snape right from the start - probably before he even meets the boy - has an image of Harry that is completely distorted, thanks to his hatred of James. His rivalry with Harry's father appears to be common knowledge (Quirrel knows, for example), and Lucius, who has been linked to Snape from when both were at school, would certainly know. So Snape isn't a reliable source on this, though I'm sure he is on other Hogwarts matters. Hannah From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Mar 2 12:42:25 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:42:25 -0000 Subject: who is the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125406 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "virgivilla" wrote: > > > Sorry for my English. I'm from Venezuela. > > Im been reading your posts but I cant find anything about who you > think is the half blood prince... excuse me if you have already talk > about this, but I would like to know what other HP fans thinks about > this. Go back to message #103110, which was the first post that mentions the half-blood prince, and just follow the threads. Also, #103517 nominates Godric Gryffindor as the HPB. > I think the half blood prince is Godric Griffindor, but every one I > have told this thinks Im crazy. - CMC (who also thinks GG is the HBP, but who is also, alas, crazy) From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 2 12:47:31 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:47:31 -0000 Subject: who is the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125407 Virgivilla wrote: > Sorry for my English. I'm from Venezuela. > > Im been reading your posts but I cant find anything about who you > think is the half blood prince... excuse me if you have already talk about this, but I would like to know what other HP fans thinks about this. > I think the half blood prince is Godric Griffindor, but every one I have told this thinks Im crazy. I think this because JKR says that the second book and the 6th are related so I think a character of book 2 must be the HBP, but JKR says that it is not Harry, non Voldemort or Hagrid or Neville. I also think the griffindor sword > that Harry uses to defeat the basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets is the kind of sword a prince would have. I would like to know your opinion because obviously you all know a lot more of HP than me. Hannah: Welcome, Virgivilla - your English is very good, a whole lot better than my (non-existant) Venezuelan! We've discussed the identity of the half-blood prince a lot, but finding posts here can be very difficult, so I don't see why we shouldn't start discussing it again :-) Your Godric Gryffindor idea isn't crazy at all, I think you'll find a lot of people agree with you. I hadn't read that JKR has said the prince won't be Hagrid - it can't be Neville as he's a pureblood. I personally think it will be Colin Creevey. I believe Colin will turn out to be a half blood for the following reasons: 1. We never hear any reference to his Mum. He seems to come from a close knit family, and talks a lot about his Dad, but never his Mum. This suggests to me that she is dead/ has left them. Thus she could well have been a witch without the boys and their father knowing. Or she may have been a squib, or had a magical/ squib parent. 2. Both Colin and Dennis are wizards. Given that Muggle-born wizards are rare (compared to Muggle-born Muggles), to have two in one family without any magical members somewhere, strikes me as suspicious. We know of at least two Muggle-borns who had a non- magical sibling (Lily and Hermione - Hermione's Muggle sister is referred to by JKR in interview). 3. Colin is an inobvious choice, and I think JKR is likely to go for someone unexpected. He and Dennis also get a lot of mentions in all of the books, even where it's not really necessary for the plot. This suggests to me that JKR wants us to be aware of their presence for future plot reasons. Anyway, that's what I think. Hannah From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 2 13:04:02 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:04:02 -0000 Subject: Why did Dumbledore call for Winky? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125408 Richard Jones worte: > At the end of GOF, after the fake Mad-Eye Moody was caught but before > the polyjuice portion had worn off and he changed back to Barty > Crouch, Jr., Dumbledore had Winky brought from the kitchen. How did > he know that Winky would know anything about what was going on? > There was no apparent reason to suspect that the Crouch family was > involved. So what did Dumbledore know and when did he know it? Hannah: Good question! I suppose there was some reason to suspect the Crouch family were involved. He knew Mr Crouch had gone missing under mysterious circumstances, shortly after appearing half-mad and rambling about needing to see Dumbledore and the Dark Lord regaining power, and his son. He also knew about Winky the elf having been accused of casting the Dark Mark. He obviously guessed that 'Moody' was someone under Polyjuice potion. Whether he realised it was Crouch junior or if he just thought that the Crouches may have been involved, so brought up Winky to supply any information she did have, is impossible to say. So Dumbledore was able to put two and two together and get it right in this case. This fits with his 'great and omniscient' image. The only problem is when you start to think how, if he can work that out, he manages to remain apparently oblivious in so many other situations... Hannah From rubykelly at webtv.net Wed Mar 2 13:05:08 2005 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:05:08 -0000 Subject: Why did Dumbledore call for Winky? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125409 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard Jones" wrote: > > > At the end of GOF, after the fake Mad-Eye Moody was caught but before > the polyjuice portion had worn off and he changed back to Barty > Crouch, Jr., Dumbledore had Winky brought from the kitchen. How did > he know that Winky would know anything about what was going on? > There was no apparent reason to suspect that the Crouch family was > involved. So what did Dumbledore know and when did he know it? > > Richard Jones Me (Kat aka rxk) I think he knew Winky was the elf for the Crouch family-if not as an "up front" fact (although owning a house-elf would likely NOT be something to conceal in the magical community; rather it'd probably be something to boast of, and her presence would be both be evident through bragging as well as using her openly as a servant-just as is done in GoF. For example, I imagine she would be used for attending to guests in the Crouch home where her attachment to Crouch Jr, would not go unnoticed), Dumbeldore would be aware of gossip. Also, as a master Legilimens he would have no problem "picking up" the overall theme of her distress; it may well not have seemed necessary to probe any deeper. Hence his request to have her brought in and realization that further enquiry was needed. I hope that clears things up a bit. Kat/rxk From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 13:28:29 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:28:29 -0000 Subject: Potter Hair Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125410 Finwitch: I just reread that hair-part in PS about Harry. Of course, James had a hair just like that and I just thought... You know - Harry had a haircut once a week, and always came out of the barber's like he hadn't been at all - (it made no difference) - and then the famous Petunia cutting it so short he was nearly bald (except for the fringe to hide the scar). Yes, Harry being upset about that haircut, but all those visits to barber's? I mean, Harry liked his *scar* and nothing else about his appearance (including the hair). Harry figured that his hair simply grew that way - all over the place. Then I remember Harry trying to flatten his hair in front of a talking Mirror - and the mirror tells him: "You're fighting a losing battle there" And then we come to Lily saying that James making his hair look like he just came out of the Qudditch Pitch (all over the place? Messy?) because he thought it looked cool, but as she and James weren't assosiating much at the point we see in the Pensieve, I think it's possible that James was trying to change his hair's appearance to please Lily instead? And the curses SS shoot at JP - a haircut? (I mean, the blood-drawing curse did hit the head, so maybe it was just a bit misaimed!) The Potters may even have a 1000 Galleon price for anyone who manages to permanently change the Potter Hair... (And Snape never stopped trying to get that money!) What I'm thinking, is that Potter Hair grows that way and is defiant to any attempts to change the way it is. (Muggle dye being possible exception). No one wrote a book about it (because this hair is ONLY found within Potters) so Hermione doesn't know -- Ron may have heard of it (I don't recall him EVER criticizing Harry's hairstyle, despite all the direct comments he makes about everyone) but doesn't say anything (probably assuming that Harry already knows and WHY would he come up with such a trivial thing?). And how would Harry hear of this? From a Potter. A Potter who works in the Department of Mysteries and was ignorant about Harry's existence, having studied Death etc. and forgotten to live. (due to a loss of a relative). And this Potter-Hair was the first source of Potter Fortune, because of Potters making bets about their hair... (It'll be the same tomorrow anyway-- don't believe me? -- how about a bet?) Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 13:53:47 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:53:47 -0000 Subject: Department of Mysteries Prophecies - Smashing Orbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125411 > > bboyminn: --- > Remember Harry's earlier description (in narative) of what he saw in > the Hall of Prophecies; rows and rows of glass orbs, some shining > bright, other dull and dark as burnt-out lightbulbs. I'm guessing that > the 'burnt-out' orbs are prophecies that have expired. That is, they > have been fulfilled, and are no longer relevant; therefore, they are dark. -- > I think this is one of those times when we need to use external > analysis. The reason for having the prophecies break is for the author > to introduce the concept of what happens when they break, so that > later when Harry/Neville break Harry's prophecy, we will understand > what is happening, and know (or at least think) that in the chaos, the > Prophecy will /play/ unheard. Finwitch: I think you're right about the fulfilled vs. still active prophecy. As the prophecy Harry got wasn't dark, it's still active. (It won't be fulfilled until either Harry or Voldemort is dead, I suppose. 'Either must die at the hand of the other...') No one (except maybe Neville who was right next to it, and Neville was the other possible prophecy-boy, so it's only fair he heard it, too, isn't it?) appears to have paid attention to it at the time, with all that fighting going on... However, it's entirely possible for a DE (or a DA-member or those of the Order who were there, but particularly Neville) to use a Pensieve to hear the smashed Prophecy. Or to witness Harry pointing his wand at Bellatrix and saying Crucio with no effect... Finwitch From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 13:55:00 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:55:00 -0000 Subject: Why did Draco do it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125412 > Hannah said: I always think the easiest way to decide how Lucius > would have acted in a certain situation is to ask 'what would be in > it for him?' I think Lucius will use whatever opportunity he can to > increase his power and standing in the wizard community. Having a > son that's friends with Harry Potter would likely benefit Lucius, so > I think it's safe to say he had a little word with Draco before the > latter left for Hogwarts. (snip) > I think that Lucius almost certainly did try and influence Draco on > the matter of befriending Harry. Not because it may benefit Draco, > but because it would benefit Lucius. Now Ginger: Good stuff, all of you! There is one more thing that Lucius would have going for him if Draco befriended Harry: Harry at his disposal. If LV never returns, Lucius has the prestige of being acquainted with the Saviour of the WW, which would "show" people that he'd been on the right side all along. If LV returns, all he has to do is write to Draco asking him to invite Harry home on the next break. Poof! Harry's head on a platter to prove his loyalty to his dear master. With tartar sauce and a slice of lemon for aesthetic purposes. That sounds like Lucius to me. Plan for the win-win situation. Ginger, eschewing fish for a bit From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 13:57:48 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 05:57:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] who is the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050302135748.73606.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125413 --- virgivilla wrote: > I think the half blood prince is Godric Griffindor, but every one I > have told this thinks Im crazy. I think this because JKR says that > the second book and the 6th are related so I think a character of > book 2 must be the HBP, but JKR says that it is not Harry, non > Voldemort or Hagrid or Neville. I also think the griffindor sword > that Harry uses to defeat the basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets is > the kind of sword a prince would have. I would like to know your > opinion because obviously you all know a lot more of HP than me. > > "virgivilla" Personally I think you're right, Virgivilla. I have never thought that the HBP will be a living character, either a new one or one we've already met. It's more likely to be a legend about the late Godric G., or the equivalent of the Heir of Slytherin. I think we'll find that it was actually a legendary GG heir that resembles Harry, which he firmly rejects in favour of being just himself. Unlike Tom Riddle who sees himself as the Heir of Slytherin. Welcome to the list. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 14:47:46 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 14:47:46 -0000 Subject: Neville's sorting... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125414 David: > Extending this theory a little further to Neville. On the surface he > does not seem the typical Gryffindor. I ask, would we see the > Neville we saw developing in OOTP, if he had been placed in > Hufflepuff. I don't think so. Finwitch: Not only that, but Neville IS brave (more of the sort that endures the arrows of cruel Destiny than the sort to raise arms against the sea of sorrow - or how did Shakespeare put it). He faces his fears regularly (some *define* courage as being just that, and it doesn't require risking your life), although PoA made this OBVIOUS, he's still done that all along. He stood up to Harry&co. (And Dumbledore rewarded him for it) Having learned his spells properly, he's going into battle with Harry. But his bravery - the most brave things I've seen of *anyone* - were in PoA when he admitted to leaving the passwords, knowing full well he'd be in BIG trouble (Much braver than Harry lying about Hogsmeade, and HONEST, too); and in GoF when he was the one to mention the cruciatus curse. And yes, Neville NEEDS to be brave. Because he's powerful wizard, but fears that power he has (which DOES tend to hurt him!). What Neville doesn't have, is ambition (unless the desire of being a Squib counts, but that can't happen and Neville knows it), disregard for rules, willingness to use any means to get what he wants (he'd NEVER cast cruciatus curse on anyone or anything -- and I doubt he'd be casting other unforgivables either)... in other words, NONE of the Slytherin values except those he was born to have... Hufflepuff-- hmm-mm. Is he loyal, kind and fair; unafraid of hard work? Yes - (sometimes standing up to your friends is *more* loyal than letting them do what they want...) - but Neville values bravery and chivalry; and he *needs* bravery most. Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 15:41:37 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:41:37 -0000 Subject: who is the HBP? In-Reply-To: <20050302135748.73606.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125415 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich: > Personally I think you're right, Virgivilla. I have never thought > that the HBP will be a living character, either a new one or one > we've already met. It's more likely to be a legend about the late > Godric G., or the equivalent of the Heir of Slytherin. I think we'll > find that it was actually a legendary GG heir that resembles Harry, > which he firmly rejects in favour of being just himself. Unlike Tom > Riddle who sees himself as the Heir of Slytherin. > Finwitch: Well, anything is possible in a world of magic. I've seen two fanfics where the founders return -- so why not. So I'd say it could be that the Prince is the spirit of CG, delivered to the one who drew the Sword (Harry). AND Harry's *heard* the voice of this spirit when under Imperious by Crouch Jr/Voldemort at least... That way, the Prince is NOT Harry (and yet is linked to Harry...) And certainly not Voldemort (Tom Riddle was not he-who-must-not-be- named at sixteen...) Many have speculated whether this 'Not Harry nor Lord Voldemort' is same kind of clue Dobby gave Harry... well, who knows! But if Slytherin's heir is Tom Riddle alias Voldemort, and Harry(or Neville) carries the Spirit of Gryffindor - is someone like Luna or Cho carrying Ravenclaw's spirit? and if, then who's carrying Helga's? Justin? Ernie? Or would it have been Cedric, but he's dead? Or will it be someone we haven't met properly yet? Finwitch From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 16:49:29 2005 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:49:29 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy (was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125416 Betsy: > Draco is not pampered by his parents. When he is introduced, he's > been left alone in a shop while his parents split up to get the > other shopping errands done (including buying his wand, which I > thought was an Ollivander no-no). This is not the actions of people > thrilled and excited about their only son's upcoming trip to > Hogwarts. It's what people do when they want to move as quickly as > possible to get an annoying job done. Eustace_Scrubb: It is possible for children to be "spoiled" by their parents--given all the newest toys, most stylish clothes, sent to the best camps/schools, etc.--even when (perhaps in fact most often) when those parents maintain a distant personal relationship with the children. By the time we first meet Draco, he's plenty old enough to have figured this out and started using it to his advantage. (In fact, it's not that much different from Dudley's relationship with his parents, except for the fact that as far as we know, Vernon isn't the wealthy, smoothly evil scion of one of England's best families. Though he'd probably admire Lucius if he could just get over his magic phobia. And really, we know more about how Lucius acts in public with Draco than we do about how the Dursleys act with Dudley--with the exception of the zoo trip is SS/PS, we don't really see the Dursleys in public except at King's Cross when they're all petrified of the magic folk about them.) Anyway, I suspect that Lucius and Draco are both adept at using each other to get what they want. And I suspect that Lucius _does_ want first-hand reports on the remarkable Harry Potter. I'm not sure that I agree with SSSusan that I could see it happening as they "enjoy their evening meal" together, because I imagine the Malfoys' dinners as formal occasions, at which the distance between Lucius and Draco is heightened. I'd see it more like this: Draco being ushered into his father's library for some formal advice and admonitions about his behavior at Hogwarts--and his parents' expectations, one of which is to find out what he can about young Potter. And Draco would try, not because of any warmth he feels towards his father, but because it could be a useful chit to have later on, when he wants something from Lucius. A minor comment about the Malfoys' shopping trip: Draco tells Harry that "mother's up the street looking at wands," but it's open to interpretation whether she's _buying_ his wand. She may be doing some pre-screening for him, or maybe she's looking for a new wand for herself...we don't know. I agree that Ollivander wouldn't approve of Draco's mother choosing his wand for him. Also, this could be a way of indicating that the Malfoys don't really feel that parental oversight of the fitting for mere school robes is worth their time. Checking into the quintessential magic appliance--the wand--would be much more important. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 17:27:32 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:27:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's sorting... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050302172732.69526.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125417 --- finwitch wrote: > He faces his fears regularly (some *define* courage as being just > that, and it doesn't require risking your life), although PoA made > this OBVIOUS, he's still done that all along. > > He stood up to Harry&co. (And Dumbledore rewarded him for it)... > > But his bravery - the most brave things I've seen of *anyone* - > were > in PoA when he admitted to leaving the passwords, knowing full well > he'd be in BIG trouble (Much braver than Harry lying about > Hogsmeade, > and HONEST, too); and in GoF when he was the one to mention the > cruciatus curse. Neville is the standard of courage that other Gryffindors should be measured against, to see how well THEY match up. He was an isolated kid with almost no self-esteem and few friends who had more courage at the age of 11 than Remus Lupin had at the age of 15 (with a prefect's badge to back him up). My respect for Neville went through the ceiling as a result of watching the Pensieve scene. I think what happened is that in OOTP Neville finally confronted the reality that the DE's can't be avoided, they can only be defeated, and he's ready for the battle. Magda __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 18:47:47 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:47:47 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries Prophecies - Row 97=1997 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125418 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > > Maria wrote: > > I've read the other esponses to your post, but I think we > need to keep in mind WHERE these orbs were before they broke. > ...edited... We don't know how the orbs are catalogued, but I would > assume they are shelved according to the dates they were recorded. > Tinglinger/Samnanya: > > ... Given that JKR loves riddles, it is more consistent to assume > that the prophecies are catalogued chronologically by the date they > are predicted to OCCUR. > > Row 97 would correspond to 1997 (or even all years of the > form xx97 since they are stacked very high up) > 1997 would correspond to the year that Harry ends his sixth > year at Hogwarts and starts his seventh year there - the > perfect time for Harry to confront the dark lord once and > for all. > > ...edited.. > > I had posted on this extensively in 2003/2004 and will find > the post(s) if anyone is really interested. > >tinglinger bboyminn: Well, I will admit it is an odd coincidence that the Prophecy is in Row 97, and that may have some significants, but oddly, I don't think it's significant significants. It may coincide with the year of the beginning of the seventh school year ('97-'98), and the seventh and final book, and the year in which Harry turns 17 becoming an adult in the wizard world, and she may have picked that particular row as symbolic of all these things, but I think that's as far as it goes. The problem is that the Prophecy was made in late 1979 or early 1980 (the year Harry was born), so that rules out a connection between the row number and the year of the Prophecy. The books will conclude during the 1997-1998 school year, but likely the climax will be in 1998. In addition, the Prophecy is vague enough that no one in the wizard world could predict when it would be fulfilled which is what I take Tinglinger's statement "...by the date they are predicted to OCCUR..." to mean. In fact, while the Prophecy may be completely fulfilled during a certain year, it is actually being fulfilled (occurring) in parts as the years go by. So, the Prophecy is being fulfilled across a span of time and not on a certain (unpredictable) date. Although, I acknowledge that it may expire or conclude on a certain, again unpredictable, date. I think extrenal to the story, JKR needed to create some sense of time and space for the reader. So, she had Harry enter the room in the middle near row 50 (approx.) which means the group has to move through the great room to row 97. That creates time and distance for the search, and later, time and distance for the chase and escape. So, I think any symbolism is external to the story. It may have value to the reader, but is of no or little significant internal to the story. I'm willing to be proved wrong, but that's where I stand for now. Certainly not an opinion that is as fun as a secret message hidden in the story. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 19:18:01 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 19:18:01 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy (was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125419 >>SSSusan: >Again, when [Draco] said he needed to go bully his dad, I believe he knew he could say this because he *had* done so successfully before. Kind of like how Dudley could have bragged to his friends that he bullied his parents into giving him two additional birthday presents. Now, I do not picture Lucius going to the extreme that Petunia & Vernon did in that situation, but I do think Draco is used to often getting his way.< >>Deborah: >I've always thought that what puts Harry off Draco in the beginning, and keeps him hostile, is Draco's eery resemblance to Dudley in character and upbringing. OK, Dudley does his own beating up and Draco needs his hit squad, but apart from that ...< Betsy: I've always thought the so-called resemblances between Draco and Dudley was a red-herring. Mainly because Draco and Dudley are *opposites* if anything. It seems to me that Dudley has a certain contempt for his parents. They do what he wants when he wants them to, so they're useful tools, but he acts in a manner (street-hood) they would totally be against. I seriously doubt Dudley quotes his father at his school, or invokes his anger as the ultimate punishment (wait until my father finds out!). Dudley is a physical bully. His friends hang with him because he can beat the crap out of anything. He's not witty, he's not amusing, he wouldn't come up with a clever song or catchy badge to intimidate his enemies, he'd pound them. And I've never gotten the sense that Dudley worries about his academic ranking. Draco, on the other hand, worships his parents, eschews physical violence (please quote me an example where he and his gang beat up on younger students for fun and entertainment, because I can't recall any), and is academically competitive. Draco is a perfomer. He's at the center of crowds because he's entertaining them with his clever mimicry and amusing stories. Another of Draco's characteristics is he's not afraid to lie or put on a pose if he thinks it makes him look good or more in control of a situation (OotP regarding the OWL examiners). Since I have yet to see Draco bully his father into doing anything for Draco he did not already wish to do, I doubt Draco's brag to Harry in the dress-shop, especially since his goal at the time was so obviously to impress Harry. An aside on the Slytherin brooms: Lucius bought the team brooms to show off his wealth. This was the time period that Lucius starts courting Fudge, and he uses the impression of wealth (I have some doubts as to the veracity of the "Malfoy Fortune") to do so. What better form of display than to sponser his son's quidditch team? It gets the message out to his peers as well. (If Lucius was doing it for his son, why didn't he drop *any* hints to Draco while selling his dark goods? What better way to shut-up a whiner than with the promise of an extra special treat?) >>Eustace_Scrubb: >It is possible for children to be "spoiled" by their parents--given all the newest toys, most stylish clothes, sent to the best camps/schools, etc.--even when (perhaps in fact most often) when those parents maintain a distant personal relationship with the children.< Betsy: It's hard to compare a child from an old family of a certain level of wealth (or maintaining the appearence thereof) and the child of a middle class family aspiring to something higher. Because the rich child will *always* appear to be more pampered, more spoiled, just in maintaining his position. Of course Draco will have the best clothes, the highest quality of a certain amount of toys (though he would *never* be encouraged to count the amount of presents). If the WW (or the British) went in for summer camps, Draco would attend the best one and be kitted out in the best manner (though probably with his father's sleeping bag, and his grandfather's tent, if there wasn't a certain newness to the Malfoy wealth). The utter tackiness of Dudley counting his gifts, the very shiny newness and bigger, bigger, bigger! hysterics of it all is *completely* at odds with the Malfoy way. The Dursleys give Dudley more than they can afford because he's their little Dudley-kins. The Malfoy's give Draco what he's entitled to because he's a Malfoy. There is a *profound* difference. The Dursley's teach Dudley that he's special and entitled in a way that they are not. The Malfoy's don't have to teach Draco anything. Draco knows that he is entitled because his parents are entitled. >>Hannah: >You argue your case very well, Betsy :-) But I'm still with SSSusan on this one. Draco *is* pampered by his parents. >...the constant packages from home full of sweets. Those are doubtless from his mother, but *she* at least is spoiling him. And who's to say Draco didn't *want* to stay at school for Christmas in CoS, since we know he himself was trying to find out who the heir of Slytherin was? If his parents didn't want him around at Christmas, why does he go home in PS/SS and PoA? And why did Narcissa not want him to Durmstrang because it was so far away, if she at least didn't want him to come home for holidays?< Betsy: Thanks, Hannah :) Narcissa *is* the dark horse in this family drama. We know next to nothing about her. It *looks* like she cares for her son - at least according to Draco. But again, Draco is not above lying to maintain appearances, (maybe Durmstrang was too expensive, or maybe no Black ever attended Durmstang, who knows?). The sweets from home could be from Narcissa (out of love, out of appearances?), they could be from a house-elf. We don't know. (Though I will say I'm not sure that sending care-packages from home to a child at boarding school are good examples of *spoiling* your child. Harry thinks so, but what does Harry know about such things?) Plus, Draco's method of finding out who the Heir was, was questioning his father. He didn't go on any sleuthing missions, that we saw anyway. So I'm still pretty sure he was left at Hogwarts to report back to his father. >>SSSusan: >In sum, I think Lucius likely does use his own son. So in that way, they're not a close-knit family, no. But I think you can pamper a child, teach him that he's special & important & one of the Entitled Ones at the same time that you don't mind using him a little to advance your own agenda.< >>Eustace_Scrubb: >Anyway, I suspect that Lucius and Draco are both adept at using each other to get what they want. And I suspect that Lucius _does_ want first-hand reports on the remarkable Harry Potter.< >>Ginger: >If LV returns, all [Lucius] has to do is write to Draco asking him to invite Harry home on the next break. Poof! Harry's head on a platter to prove his loyalty to his dear master. With tartar sauce and a slice of lemon for aesthetic purposes. >That sounds like Lucius to me. Plan for the win-win situation.< >>Hannah: >But Lucius, at this point, is trying to appear respectable. He's schmoozing politicians, such as Fudge, who was quite keen on Harry at that time, making donations to St Mungo's, etc. He's practically renounced his old 'master' by claiming he'd been under the Imperio curse when performing whatever crimes they accused him of the first time round. As far as I can see, Lucius has behaved in character, and switched to the winning side as fast as possible. So I don't think he'd worry what LV would say.< Betsy: I do agree that Lucius would not hesitate to use his son if he thought there was *any* benefit for him. (Though, I disagree with Eustace_Scrubb that Draco is any good at using his father - I've yet to see it happen, frankly.) And I can see your arguments that Lucius could see a benefit in wooing Harry Potter. Here are two counter-arguments: 1)In PS/SS Lucius is not trying to accomplish anything. He's laying low under his Voldemort-victim alibi, not rocking any boats. It's not until CoS, when his home is invaded, that Lucius starts re-entering the world of WW politics, throwing around his money and cosying up to Fudge. Befriending Harry Potter would definitely rock some boats. 2) If Lucius did try and approach Harry Potter there are several Aurors that would find his motives *very* questionable. It's a high risk move, guaranteed to call attention to himself, and I'm not sure what agenda Lucius could possibly have that would outweigh the risks. You all may suggest that if he worked through Draco, none would be the wiser, but one thing we all know about Draco - the kid ain't subtle. And he's no good at keeping secrets, especially at that age. If his father suggested he should be friends with Harry, I can easily imagine Draco saying, "My father thinks you and I should be friends! Oh, hello Professor Dumbledore!" Everyone hated my Snape idea , but if Lucius was interested in gathering knowledge about Harry, Snape would be the most subtle way to go. Before Voldemort returned, Lucius was all about the subtle. (Another way I imagine Draco disappoints him.) And I still think Lucuis *is* disappointed in his son, and not close to him at all. I think he acts like a parent who wants to be around his child as little as possible. >>SSSusan: >OR it's the actions of parents who never *make* their child do anything for himself, but rather do everything *for* him, which is how I took the shopping outing.< Betsy: Except, doesn't Draco strike you as a child that would *love* a shopping trip? Being with his parents, able to pick out things, seeing and being seen in Diagon Alley, this all sounds like Draco's idea of heaven. So why would he do anything to hurry the process? Lucius, on the other hand, I can see trying to get through the entire trip as quickly as possible. >>SSSusan: >I don't think the family is close in the sense of 3 people who just love spending all their free time together or who sit and have heart- to-heart talks all the time. I think Lucius is likely stern with Draco on occasion. So I'm with you that far. But I don't get the sense that Draco is ignored.< Betsy: I do. I really feel that Lucius spends as little time as possible with Draco, and that Draco spends most of his vacation time slouching around the manor, listening at doors, trying to get as close to his father as he can. And I think part of his obsession with beating Harry Potter comes not just from Harry's rejection of him in PS/SS but from his desperate attempts to finally measure up to his father's expectations. Draco craves attention. He's always joking and performing, needing to be in the center of the crowd. Even on the Hogwarts train, Draco can't sit still in a compartment, he has to go up and down the aisles getting attention of all the other students. He's an outgoing boy, and that's fine, but I also think he might be trying to get something he doesn't get at home. Again, there's not any canon I can point to. It's just a feeling I have, based on Draco's actions, and his few interactions with his father. Betsy, who pieced together about six billion posts (okay, five?) for this response so is quite sure she snipped, took out of context, and maybe even mis-credited the various quotes she used. If so, she apologises and assures everyone it was done in ignorance, not malice. From jlawlor at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 19:30:38 2005 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:30:38 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Draco do it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c8805030211302771eab4@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125420 > Now Ginger: > Good stuff, all of you! > > There is one more thing that Lucius would have going for him if Draco > befriended Harry: Harry at his disposal. James: I quite agree - very good stuff! This isn't necessarily a direct response to the above quote, but I wanted to ground this post somewhere in the thread and this seemed to work. I've thought of a third reason for Lucius to want Draco to befriend Harry Potter (aside from wanting information or wanting easy access to kill Harry/the ability to prove to the WW that he wasn't on Voldemort's side after all). Lucius could have been setting himself up to be in the good graces of the next Dark Lord. Now, we don't know what Lucius knew about the prophecy, or whether or not he knew more than any of the other Death Eaters. But if he knew about the possibility that Harry or Neville could have the power to overthrow Voldemort (or even deduced this himself after the fact - knowing that Voldemort wouldn't go after a baby himself without sufficient reason) he would certainly begin to wonder about this power. He would probably see the possibility of Harry being Voldemort's successor and not his mortal adversary. I think it would be obvious to Lucius that Harry was a very powerful wizard and would soon be very important. Had Harry befriended Draco, who do we think would be *so* generous, and *so* helpful? Perhaps he would even seem kind and loving and fatherly. He would want to be Harry's advisor, someone who Harry trusts more than anyone else. (Certainly if Lucius acted like that, Draco and Harry wouldn't trust each other for very long - although I doubt that Draco trusts any of his friends in the way Harry trusts Ron and Hermione). However it works out, Lucius can only benefit from being close to Harry Potter. Friend to the WW's Savior, ready to present Harry's head to Voldemort, or Mentor to the Next Dark Lord - Lucius would want to be any of these, because it would guarantee his being in the good graces of whoever held the most power in the WW. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 19:43:35 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 19:43:35 -0000 Subject: Dating Muggleborns(was: Where does it say that Molly is a pureblood fanatic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125421 >>Naama: >From what we've seen, Molly's attitude towards Muggles is the prevalent, normal one in the WW (which we see in McGonagall's description of the Dursleys in the beginning of PS, for instance). It's kind of the premise of the books and the way *JKR* uses the term. Muggles are clueless, magic-less, afraid of the different. The divide between Muggles and wizards is unambigous and unproblematic.< Betsy: But that's exactly the problem. If you think an entire race of people are "other" how would you look at their children? Yes, Hermione is a witch, yes, she's a good little assimilator, barely visiting her parents over school breaks. But she's been raised by Muggles. Who knows what wierd and immoral things Muggles may teach their children? >>Naama: >The thing that JKR portrays as problematic is the attitude to Muggleborns. It may seem psychologically sound that if you look down on Muggles (as the entire WW does), you would look down on Muggleborns too. However, that is not the case in the Potterverse. Some do that and some don't. Those who do are both wrong and evil.< Betsy: I think you're reading the books in a much more black and white fashion then I am. Because I would say that the overall attitude amongst the WW is that Muggleborns are not to be completely trusted. Fudge is a good barometer for prevailing Wizarding views, and he distrusts Muggleborns. He doesn't hate them, he doesn't think they should be destroyed (I don't think he's been portrayed as out and out evil, either) but he doesn't trust them. >>Naama: >Basically what I've tried to say is that, yes, Molly shows the normal condescending attitude to Muggles, but that doesn't necessarily imply (in the Potterverse) that this "taints" her view of Muggleborns.< Betsy: But of course is does, and within the Potterverse. Again, look at Fudge. He condescendes to Muggles, and his view of Muggleborns are therefore tainted. Rita Skeeter had already published lies about the Weasley family. Why did Molly so quickly and easily believe her this time? The only logical explination is that Hermione was raised by Muggles, and Molly *knows* that Muggles (and therefore their offspring) are somehow... different. Molly isn't evil. Or at least, I don't think JKR is trying to portray her as evil (I'd be very surprised if she turned out to be a closet Death Eater). But there is a major problem in the WW, and at the heart of it is the views they have towards Muggles. Nora and I had a conversation about this a while back (I think we were talking about Salazar Slytherin), and I think the conclusion reached was that there is something rotten in the WW, and it effects everyone. That even Molly is not touched by the taint goes to show how prevalent it is. Betsy From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 20:26:17 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:26:17 -0000 Subject: Neville's sorting... In-Reply-To: <20050302172732.69526.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125422 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > --- finwitch wrote: > > > He faces his fears regularly (some *define* courage as being just > > that, and it doesn't require risking your life), although PoA made > > this OBVIOUS, he's still done that all along. > > > > He stood up to Harry&co. (And Dumbledore rewarded him for it)... > > > > But his bravery - the most brave things I've seen of *anyone* - > > were > > in PoA when he admitted to leaving the passwords, knowing full well > > he'd be in BIG trouble (Much braver than Harry lying about > > Hogsmeade, > > and HONEST, too); and in GoF when he was the one to mention the > > cruciatus curse. > > > Neville is the standard of courage that other Gryffindors should be > measured against, to see how well THEY match up. > > He was an isolated kid with almost no self-esteem and few friends who > had more courage at the age of 11 than Remus Lupin had at the age of > 15 (with a prefect's badge to back him up). My respect for Neville > went through the ceiling as a result of watching the Pensieve scene. > > I think what happened is that in OOTP Neville finally confronted the > reality that the DE's can't be avoided, they can only be defeated, > and he's ready for the battle. > > Magda > > Antosha: Agreed. The other moment that always surprises me takes place in one of the famous not- from-Harry's-PoV Quidditch scenes in SS/PS. Draco makes his customary snide remark and Neville stammers what Harry had said to him: "I'm worth twelve of you, Malfoy" (PS/SS, Ch. 13, "Nicholas Flamel") At which point Malfoy gets into a fistfight with Ron... and Neville takes on GOYLE AND CRABBE. Stunning. Totally unexpected. But totally in character. Of course, they beat the stuffing out of him. But even so... Neville has never shown any sign of cowardice. Low self-esteem. Anxiety. Bumbling, forgetfulness, fear of his grandmother (heck, _I'd_ be scared of Neville's gran...), but never cowardice. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 20:31:58 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:31:58 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts on Draco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125423 Several long Draco and Draco related discussions going on right now. I don't have specific comments to any individual, so I will just make a few random notes about Draco in general. As to whether Draco is pampered, spoiled, or indulged; I think not. Draco comes from a family of wealth, privilege, and status. Because of this, members of the family are expected to conduct themselves with dignity, restraint, and formality at all times. I'm reminded of Prince William and Prince Harry of the Royal Family. Despite their mother's valiant attempts to make them /normal/, they, none the less, have a substantial degree of restraint and formality forced on them in any and all situations, even the most informal situations like a small private fancy-dress party. The Malfoys may have the very best of everything, and by extention, Draco always has the very best, and Draco may indeed have the very best in excess, but that is not done to indulge Draco in the same way the Dudley is indulged by his parents. It's done as a matter of course, it's natural for a family of wealth, status, and privilege to have the best in opulent but dignified excess. I think this degree of restraint and formality permeates all aspects of the Malfoys life; they way they view and interact with other people, the way they carry and conduct themselves, in the way they treat their kids, and indeed, even in Mr and Mrs Malfoy marriage and relationship. Mr and Mrs Malfoy's marriage is a dignified strategic alliance; the merging of two old respected wealthy pureblood families. There are limits and boundaries on who and how the old-money elite can marry, just as there are social restrictions on the marriages of the Royal Family. It is a social obligation. Heaven forbid that they should sully themselves with /common/ relationships. Notice that the Malfoys produced one male heir and stopped having kids. They had done their formal duty, they had done what society had expected of them, and that is all they were obligated to do. Further, I think the Malfoy's relationship with Draco takes on this same sense of formal obligation and restraint. Again, I am reminded of the Royal Family. A family in which, prior to William and Harry, contact with the children was done by formal appointment. Now to Draco and Harry (Potter, not Windsor). At their first meeting in Madame Malkin's Robe shop, Draco demonstrates his self-important formal privileged old-money aristocratic values. This may have been something that others would have recognised and been drawn too. But Harry, having lived with the overindulged or over-privileged Dudley, was turned off by it. Now to the Harry/Draco meeting on the train. Purebloods and aristocrats are more likely to form /strategic alliances/ than actual friendhships. Again, all things are dictated by their outer expresions of wealth, dignity, restraint, formality, privilege, power, and status. I've said before that I think subconsciously Draco viewed himself as the /crown prince/ of the wizard world. He expected to be the focus of all eyes and the center of attention at Hogwarts; admired and feared by all, but bested by no one. So why would the son of a Death Eater (Draco) and the son of a Death Eater *fighter* (Harry) even remotely concided a friendship? Simple... strategic alliance. Harry is a hero in the wizard world, beyond a hero, he is a legend; he has status, and though rarely used, privilege in the wizard world. Naturally, Draco would want to align himself with other persons of status and privilege. Also, Draco surely by his rank and status expected the spotlight to always shine on himself. However, given Harry's legendary status in the wizard world, the spotlight would certainly be shining on him too. So, by forming an alliance with Harry Potter, even when the spotlight was on Harry, Draco could bask in the reflected light of the associated status. Draco and Harry, the Prince and the Legend. Sadly, while Draco is adept at enjoying wealth, status, and privilege, he is not very good at playing the game. His father, Lucius, however is an expert a playing the game of power and privilege. Perhaps, he should have given Draco a few more lessons. So, when Draco re-meets Harry on the train, he tries his best at playing the power and status game as he understands it. His approach is that /He/ is someone special, and that /He/ can help Harry form the proper strategic alliances, and that /He/ can save Harry from the horrible mistake of associating with /commoners/. Draco is offerring to be Harry guide through the world of power and privilege, but fails to understand the austere and underprivileged life that Harry has lead, never having been underprivileged himself. In Ron, Harry has found a treasure, independant of his money in Gringott's, Harry has found the first thing of true value in his life; an honest and open friend. His frist friend ever, the first person who care about him, the first person who was interested in him. Harry on the other hand knows very well how to play the oppressed and underprivileged game. He knows that politeness and courtesy can act a protection from the potentially hostile people of the world. Without question, if all Draco had wanted to do was introduce himself and make a favorable impression, Harry would have, without hesitation, shaken Draco's hand just out of politeness and courtesy; a simple guarded attempt to avoid conflict. But Draco isn't content to build himself up, he has to tear Ron down in the process. He, in essense, says that not only am I better that other people and can be an asset to you, something Harry could deal with, but other people are filth that are beneath you. Again, Draco has made the mistake of reminding Harry very much of Dudley, Dudley is not satisfied with being indulged and elevated in status, but someone who must, on top of that, tear down and oppress other people. It's one thing to elevate yourself in life, it's quite another to do it by pushing other people down. So, out of common defensive politeness, Harry would have shaken Draco's hand. But when Draco crossed the line and insulted Ron, Harry's first ever friend, there was no hope that Harry would ever accept that. So, in a sense, not shaking Draco's hand was not something Harry did against Draco, but something he did in support of Ron. If Draco had left Ron out of it, he would have gotten his handshake. Draco, someone of status, and in his mind, someone of supreme status, could not accept Harry's rejection, and the sting of that rejection has colored their relationship every since. If Draco really understood how the /Status/ game is play, as his father does, he could have probably recovered, and patched his association with Harry (I hesitate to say 'friendship with Harry'). But, his ego clouded his judgement, and Draco did exactly the opposite of what he should, and at every step of the way, made himself look like a fool, and further alienated Harry. Now, given all that has happened, even under the best of circumstances, as in redeemed Draco, things will always be strained and conflicted between them. In addition, even allowing for redeemed Draco in the long run, in the short run, I see things going from bad to worse very quickly in the next book. Like I said... a few random thoughts about Draco. Steve/bboyminn From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 2 21:06:49 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:06:49 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy (was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125424 > Betsy wrote: > I've always thought the so-called resemblances between Draco and > Dudley was a red-herring. Mainly because Draco and Dudley are > *opposites* if anything. It seems to me that Dudley has a certain > contempt for his parents. They do what he wants when he wants them > to, so they're useful tools, but he acts in a manner (street-hood) > they would totally be against. I seriously doubt Dudley quotes his > father at his school, or invokes his anger as the ultimate > punishment (wait until my father finds out!). Dudley is a physical bully. His friends hang with him because he can beat the crap out of anything. He's not witty, he's not amusing, he wouldn't come up > with a clever song or catchy badge to intimidate his enemies, he'd > pound them. And I've never gotten the sense that Dudley worries > about his academic ranking. > > Draco, on the other hand, worships his parents, eschews physical > violence (please quote me an example where he and his gang beat up > on younger students for fun and entertainment, because I can't > recall any), and is academically competitive. Draco is a perfomer. Hannah: Another eloquent argument :-) Of course, it is Harry that first draws the parallel between Dudley and Draco, when he first meets Draco in Diagon Alley and is 'strongly reminded of Dudley.' But Harry's POV isn't terribly reliable. I think that's the problem with any analysis of Draco's character - to support any argument - we have such a one-sided view of him. You argue so convincingly that the boys are different that I am going to have to concede on that. But just because Draco differs from Dudley, it doesn't necessarily mean his relationship with Lucius is as you see it. We don't know if Draco's gang beats up younger children or not. We've never seen it in canon, true, so maybe he doesn't. But we see so little of Draco in canon that it's hard to know what he does with himself all day. I would also say that we don't really know how academically competitive Draco is or isn't - there's not enough information. But there's not enough in canon to say either way. > Betsy: > Thanks, Hannah :) Narcissa *is* the dark horse in this family > drama. We know next to nothing about her. It *looks* like she > cares for her son - at least according to Draco. But again, Draco > is not above lying to maintain appearances, (maybe Durmstrang was > too expensive, or maybe no Black ever attended Durmstang, who > knows?). The sweets from home could be from Narcissa (out of love, > out of appearances?), they could be from a house-elf. We don't > know. (Though I will say I'm not sure that sending care-packages > from home to a child at boarding school are good examples of > *spoiling* your child. Harry thinks so, but what does Harry know > about such things?) Plus, Draco's method of finding out who the Heir > was, was questioning his father. He didn't go on any sleuthing > missions, that we saw anyway. So I'm still pretty sure he was left > at Hogwarts to report back to his father. Hannah: We only see Draco once in the whole of that holiday, for all of about ten minutes. He might have been doing *anything.* And Lucius is a governor at the school - I don't think he needs Draco's input to be able to find out if anything major happens. And for everything else heir-related he has Snape - who should be reliable from Lucius' POV on this matter. I doubt the packages are from a house elf. Dobby was the Malfoy's house-elf and at no point has he ever shown any interest in or affection for Draco. I don't think that it's a case of poor-little- Draco being looked after by the kindly elves. Even if the elves make the packages themselves, it would be at the instruction of Narcissa, so she must have some interest in her son. > Betsy: > I do agree that Lucius would not hesitate to use his son if he > thought there was *any* benefit for him. (Though, I disagree with > Eustace_Scrubb that Draco is any good at using his father - I've yet > to see it happen, frankly.) And I can see your arguments that > Lucius could see a benefit in wooing Harry Potter. > > Here are two counter-arguments: 1)In PS/SS Lucius is not trying to > accomplish anything. He's laying low under his Voldemort-victim > alibi, not rocking any boats. It's not until CoS, when his home is > invaded, that Lucius starts re-entering the world of WW politics, > throwing around his money and cosying up to Fudge. Befriending > Harry Potter would definitely rock some boats. > Hannah: We know nothing about what Lucius was trying to do in PS/SS, as we don't see him. He is a school governor in CoS, and I suspect he was in PS/SS. I doubt that he suddenly decided to enter politics at the start of CoS - I think he's been schmoozing his way in from the day he 'recovered from the Imperius Curse.' Betsy: > 2) If Lucius did try and approach Harry Potter there are several > Aurors that would find his motives *very* questionable. It's a high > risk move, guaranteed to call attention to himself, and I'm not sure > what agenda Lucius could possibly have that would outweigh the > risks. You all may suggest that if he worked through Draco, none > would be the wiser, but one thing we all know about Draco - the kid > ain't subtle. And he's no good at keeping secrets, especially at > that age. If his father suggested he should be friends with Harry, > I can easily imagine Draco saying, "My father thinks you and I > should be friends! Oh, hello Professor Dumbledore!" Hannah: It depends how subtly Lucius has planted the idea into Draco's head. By your own argument, I doubt Draco would do anything that he thinks his father would disapprove of. > Betsy: > And I still think Lucuis *is* disappointed in his son, and not close to him at all. I think he acts like a parent who wants to be around his child as little as possible. > Hannah: Yes, he may well be. And maybe (probably) they're not that close. But I can't see that he would have such an extreme adversion to Draco that he wouldn't be able to bear to spend a few minutes at least suggesting that he might want to get to know Harry Potter.] Hannah From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Mar 2 22:11:16 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:11:16 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries Prophecies - Row 97=1997 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125425 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: bboyminn: > Well, I will admit it is an odd coincidence that the Prophecy is in > Row 97, and that may have some significants, but oddly, I don't think > it's significant significants. > > It may coincide with the year of the beginning of the seventh school > year ('97-'98), and the seventh and final book, and the year in which > Harry turns 17 becoming an adult in the wizard world, and she may have > picked that particular row as symbolic of all these things, but I > think that's as far as it goes. Geoff: I tend to agree with Steve that the row number has little or no significance. >From our point of view as readers (and eavesdroppers on the Wizarding World), we know that Jo Rowling intends her chronicle of Harry's doings to extend over his time at Hogwarts; hence, we are anticipating that the confrontation between Voldermort and Harry will reach its climax within that time frame and probably during Harry's last year at the school. But - and it's a significant but - from the Wizarding World's point of view, the confrontation could have taken place any time after 31st July 1980. We know that Voldemort tried to achieve that outcome very quickly and failed disastrously. At intervals, he has re-emerged in one form or another to try to deal with his nemesis - and so far still proving to be unsuccessful. So I believe that row 97 might be another of JKR's red fish or possibly she just dropped on 97 as being a nice sounding number to use. Time will tell. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Mar 2 22:28:15 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:28:15 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy (was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125426 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > SSSusan: > To me they sound like episodes of *bragging.* As in, "MY father > [who is better than your father, of course] said X or Y, and it's > IMPORTANT, which is why I'm pronouncing it as if he were a king." > > I don't think the family is close in the sense of 3 people who just > love spending all their free time together or who sit and have heart- > to-heart talks all the time. I think Lucius is likely stern with > Draco on occasion. So I'm with you that far. But I don't get the > sense that Draco is ignored. > > Again, when he said he needed to go bully his dad, I believe he knew > he could say this because he *had* done so successfully before. > Kind of like how Dudley could have bragged to his friends that he > bullied his parents into giving him two additional birthday > presents. Now, I do not picture Lucius going to the extreme that > Petunia & Vernon did in that situation, but I do think Draco is used > to often getting his way. Geoff: I am reminded of some students I sometimes met when I was teaching. They would come from a family where there was not a lot of deep family feeling between members and sometimes the parents gave little real, quality time to their children. As a compensation, they would indulge the child with lavish presents. Whatever the child craved was obtained. We usually recognised them because they interacted badly with other pupils and with staff; if their attitude or behaviour was questioned or they were expected to do something which didn't interest them, all hell would break loose. They were spoiled and often unpleasant. And if you did cross them and the parents became involved.... wow.... This is how Draco comes across in the first meetings with Harry. He boasts about his possessions, he is discourteous and sneering to people he feels are inferiors and expects everyone to realise that they are meeting with a fine, superior memebr of wizarding society. It is not surprising that Harry cannot find any common ground with him. And yet, I can still feel sympathy for him. He has missed out on so much on other levels. From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Wed Mar 2 23:35:37 2005 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:35:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125427 On Mar 1, 2005, at 1:09 AM, Tonks wrote: > > Thinking about the personality types of Molly, Arthur, DD, Lupin and > other NF types, it occurred to me that they are all poor... > Barbara: Arthur might be an NT (an intuitive-thinker type). All his fanciful tinkering projects and his love of gadgets indicates an engineer's mindset. Engineers are not always practical. My aunt used say that it took her engineer stepson took hours to finish a simple plumbing project. A healthy imagination and a drive for perfection sometimes get in the way of reality. I know that in the past some on this list have suggested that NT personalities are unfeeling, and have labeled all the heartless, mean-spirited characters in HP as being an "NT." However, I think some of the good guys may be NT types, McGonagall, Arthur and perhaps Bill. I work with a bunch of computer nerds, classic NTs, and many of them are nice, reasonable people who have feelings. Ironically, they are often the first to label someone else as mean (and rightfully so.) The feeling types are usually more likely to make excuses for callous people. I might add too that being a feeling or "F" type doesn't mean that one is nice or kind. It just means that they make decisions based on feelings, and if the feeling are bitter, then watch out! Barbara Roberts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 3 00:07:23 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 00:07:23 -0000 Subject: "Erm.." in OOtP (Vampire!Snape whose side you on NOw?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125428 --- In the interests of finding the truth about Snape and Vampires, I, Valky provided evidence from OotP as to what meaning is ascribed to "Erm" (as in "Erm.. I don't think so" the answer given by JKR when questioned about Snape and Vampires in an online chat) in writing by JKR and concluded that Jo is either: VERY nervous. Or She is ummm telling a little white lie. Through a count of instances amounting to: Nervous = 5 times Lying = 4 times --- antosha replied: Actually, I make that: Trying to think of something to say when nothing polite or appropriate comes to mind=9 times In each of those cases, the speaker (usually either Harry or Hermione) is having an emotional response--either to what is being discussed or to something else that's going on--but doesn't want to vent. So they say, "Erm..." and veer slightly. My read on the "Erm... I don't think so" quote was that she was biting back a far more... vivid response, along the lines of "Give it a break, people! You've got to be #*&$#* kidding me!" But then, that's just me. Valky now: LOL, I had always agreed with you on that until recently, Antosha. My first intuition regarding the Erm ... was that it was intended sacrcastically. Probably, most closely resembling this quote from OOtP: " ' .......... Cedric - did he - in - in - mention me at all before he died?' This was the very last subject on earth Harry wanted to discuss, and least of all with Cho. 'Well - no -' he said quietly. There - there wasn't time for him to say anything. Erm so d'you d'you get to see a lot of Quidditch in the holidays? You support the Tornados, right?' Here I see Harry reacting *nervously*. But there is also the fact that Cho is asking a ridiculous question..... But Harry is not being sarcastic here towards Cho, and so I have needed to rethink my assumption that Erm meant sarcasm to JKR, especially after I added my own analysis on the rest of the OotP "Erm.."s " 'Thanks,' said Hermione. 'Erm - Harry - could I borrow Hedwig so I can tell Mum and Dad? They'll be really pleased - I mean prefect is something they can understand.' " In this scene Hermione is talking to the dreaded CAPSLOCK!Harry that we see in the early chapters of the book. In OOtP Hermione frequently proves her ability to intuitively know what another is thinking, and here Harry is thinking he is jealous not to be a prefect. It's no great leap to assume that Hermione has a pretty good idea of what's going on and that it's Harry who is going to vent, not Hermione. So I essentially take this as close to the same meaning as the quote above, Hermione is reacting *nervously*. So far the emerging pattern is that the speaker is trying to avoid stepping, even gently, on the sensitive feelings of the listener. Perhaps Jo thinks we take Vampire!Snape far too seriously.. next quote: Cho had called him brave she did not hate him for being alive ........... 'What are you looking so pleased about?' said Ron, eyeing Harry in surprise. 'Erm Quidditch later,' said Harry happily, Now here we have an entirely different kettle of fish. In this scene Harry is cheerfully thinking over his blooming relationship with Cho. Something rather personal to him, so when he is asked about it... he ummm tells a *little* porky. (A lie) Fact is he *wasn't* thinking about Quidditch at all, he was thinking about Cho and Erm.. was his way of keeping that to himself. This is the first of a few situations where the speaker who says Erm.. is hiding something. 'Er,' said Hermione, her voice slightly higher than usual out of nerves. ............ 'Well erm well, you know why you're here. Erm well, Harry here had the idea - I mean' (Harry had thrown her a sharp look) 'I had the idea. Hermione "erm.. LIE - I mean (no erm) TRUTH." 'There are no footsteps leading away from your cabin door.' 'Well, I I don' know why that'd be ' said Hagrid ..... 'Erm ' Hagrid is LYING to conceal that he has brought Grawp to Hogwarts. And what do you think of them?' ....... 'Erm,' said Neville nervously, with a glance at Hagrid. Well, they're er OK " Neville is LYING to protect Hagrid (Harry's friend) from the menace of Umbridge. At this moment Neville is terrified of the Thestrals. That's FOUR times that someone is *hiding something* behind "Erm..". So has Jo unintentionally ( or intentionally) given us her shorthand for "I have something to hide" ? 'Erm special in what way?' asked Hermione tentatively Hermione is remembering the Skrewts and is worried that the kind of special Hagrid is talking about is the kind that's illegal, painful and unpleasant to the average non-creature-obsessed folk. She asks "tentatively" indicating some nervousness. 'Erm anyway,' said Hagrid, clearly struggling .... his lesson, 'so - Thestrals. ...' Hagrid is being inquisited by Umbridge, he is not holding back a nasty comment IMHO, he is just plain rattled by her prescence. A quote from a few lines above: "Hagrid stared at her, clearly at a complete loss to understand why she was acting as though he did not understand normal English. " Umbridge has Hagrid on the back foot in this scene, he's struggling with nerves not veangeful feelings. 'Erm there's another Hogsmeade trip next month, did you see the notice?' 'What? Oh, no, I haven't checked the noticeboard since I got back.' Erm.. Dating = Nerves. Full stop, right? Now I still personally use "erm.." to denote a hint of sarcasm but, in short, I can no longer assume that JKR uses it that way . Additionally Erm.. seems to be a relatively new shorthand in the books. There is no trace of it in PS/SS or COS or POA. Though it appears a few times in the latter part of GOF. Hermione says it twice, both times when she is hesitant to avoid saying something that might hurt the feelings of another (Hagrids Ponytail and Harry and Ron's argument), however gentle. And Harry says it later, when he is thinking back quite hard to remember what happened to his wand at the QWC, in the cave with Sirius. This case with Harry is the only one I have found where the speaker is *not* hiding something. Unless he is? In any case, once translated from the books erm.. seems to have a good chance of meaning that JKR does have something to hide about Vampire!Snape, even if it is only to spare the feelings of those who love the theory so passionately. Valky From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 02:29:45 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 02:29:45 -0000 Subject: Why did Dumbledore call for Winky? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125429 Richard Jones wrote: > At the end of GOF, after the fake Mad-Eye Moody was caught but before > the polyjuice portion had worn off and he changed back to Barty > Crouch, Jr., Dumbledore had Winky brought from the kitchen. How did > he know that Winky would know anything about what was going on? > There was no apparent reason to suspect that the Crouch family was > involved. So what did Dumbledore know and when did he know it? Carol responds: I wrote a long post (number 123284) attempting to analyze how much Dumbledore knew about the imposter and his true identity back in January. You may be interested in it and the responses it generated: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/123284 My theory was that Dumbledore had grounds for suspicions about Crouch!Moody from very early on but that he either wasn't absolutely certain of the imposter's identity or didn't have the means to prove it until the moment of epiphany when Crouch!Moody disobeyed a direct order and left the maze with Harry. Both Steve (bboy-mn) and Pippin provided alternative versions of parts of my theory showing that DD could plausibly have suspected either Crouch Sr. or even Crouch Jr. before that time. I suggest reading the whole thread. You may not agree with our conclusions, but it may give you some theories of your own. Carol, who is glad to be home from Costa Rica but knows she'll never get caught up on posting *this* time! From skater314159 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 2 13:54:39 2005 From: skater314159 at yahoo.co.uk (Megan) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:54:39 -0000 Subject: Riddle's Bones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125430 Peg wrote: > > Fossil bones of any species have been replaced by minerals other > > than calcium carbonate--very true. > > But. Bones in general, and human bones in particular, don't require > > any special treatment to remain largely intact for many, many years. > Tekay now: > "'Bone of the father, unknowingly given, you will renew your son!' > > The surface of the grave at Harry's feet cracked. Horrified, Harry > watched as a fine trickle of dust rose into the air at Wormtails' > command and fell softly into the cauldron" (GoF, US, 641). > > So, what came from Riddle's grave was bone dust, not an intact bone. > Even if the bones had disintegrated, the dust is enough to make the > spell work. I agree Peg and Tekay... I think this refers to the metaphor/image used in funereary rites of many cultures of: "ashes to ashes and dust to dust", in that it shows that it is natural for bodies to decay and return to the earth. I think that is used in contrast to Voldie's attempts to stop death and even the process of decay/dissolution/aging... which is a denial of the forces of nature/natural law (depending on what your philosophical bent is). And just so you know, the usual rule for decomp is: flesh being totally decayed (assuming no embalming/mummification) - one year... and bones can vary in preservation depending on temp, moisture, light, and soil variables (anywhere from months to [i]years [/i]...) So while I think his bones, and mebbe even some soft tissue, were in the grave, the important component of the spell was the "dust" and/or "ashes". Skater314159 ---who is writing this quickly before she has to be on task at her new job being an archaeologist--- From dorothywillis at charter.net Wed Mar 2 17:26:53 2005 From: dorothywillis at charter.net (dorothy willis) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:26:53 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is the HBP? References: Message-ID: <000701c51f4d$0704b8e0$6501a8c0@Magister> No: HPFGUIDX 125431 bbkkyy55: >I've always thought it might be Victor Krum. JKR mentioned him again >in OOTP, so he must be important for some reason. Also in a quote >she said he would appear again. He's just mysterious enough. My >vote is Victor Krum. I am with you on this. I find the name "Krum" interesting, as it was the name of a ruler of Bulgaria. This web site http://www.bulgaria.com/history/rulers/krum.html calls him, "energetic, courageous and steadfast ruler, ruthless when necessary," and gives a lot of other information. For instance, it says, "But he is equally celebrated for another important contribution: Bulgaria's first written laws." He ruled from 803-814. If Viktor (not the meaning of his given name) is a descendant with a muggle father and witch mother, he might well be called a half-blood prince. Dorothy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leslie.s.bennett at lmco.com Wed Mar 2 21:13:03 2005 From: leslie.s.bennett at lmco.com (moondance241) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:13:03 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts on Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125432 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Several long Draco and Draco related discussions going on right now. I > don't have specific comments to any individual, so I will just make a > few random notes about Draco in general. > Moondance: Random, though really very quite thought out, organized, and clear! > Steve: > I've said before that I think subconsciously Draco viewed himself as > the /crown prince/ of the wizard world. He expected to be the focus of all eyes and the center of attention at Hogwarts; admired and feared by all, but bested by no one. > Moondance: I think this statement is an excellent illustration of how Draco perceives himself within the walls of Hogwarts. He has had Lucius as an example of how to interact with others. Though he still has a lot to learn (see Steve below), he does expect the respect and preferential treatment he sees his father receiving. Steve: > At their first meeting in Madame Malkin's Robe shop, Draco > demonstrates his self-important formal privileged old-money > aristocratic values. This may have been something that others would > have recognised and been drawn too. But Harry, having lived with the > overindulged or over-privileged Dudley, was turned off by it. Moondance: Harry isn't one to recklessly judge others and express these opinions, especially in front of strangers. So to see Draco do this gives Harry his first impression (negative) of Draco. Though these impressions and Draco's importance are temporarily lost on Harry in his attempt to understand what Draco's talking about Slytherin,etc.), they come flooding back to him later. Steve: > Sadly, while Draco is adept at enjoying wealth, status, and privilege,he is not very good at playing the game. His father, Lucius, however is an expert a playing the game of power and privilege. Perhaps, he should have given Draco a few more lessons. > > So, when Draco re-meets Harry on the train, he tries his best at > playing the power and status game as he understands it. His approach > is that /He/ is someone special, and that /He/ can help Harry form the proper strategic alliances, and that /He/ can save Harry from the > horrible mistake of associating with /commoners/. Draco is offerring > to be Harry guide through the world of power and privilege, but fails > to understand the austere and underprivileged life that Harry has > lead, never having been underprivileged himself. > > In Ron, Harry has found a treasure, independant of his money in > Gringott's, Harry has found the first thing of true value in his life; an honest and open friend. His frist friend ever, the first person who care about him, the first person who was interested in him. > > Harry on the other hand knows very well how to play the oppressed and underprivileged game. He knows that politeness and courtesy can act a protection from the potentially hostile people of the world. Without question, if all Draco had wanted to do was introduce himself and make a favorable impression, Harry would have, without hesitation, shaken Draco's hand just out of politeness and courtesy; a simple guarded attempt to avoid conflict. > > But Draco isn't content to build himself up, he has to tear Ron down > in the process. He, in essense, says that not only am I better that > other people and can be an asset to you, something Harry could deal > with, but other people are filth that are beneath you. Again, Draco > has made the mistake of reminding Harry very much of Dudley, Dudley is > not satisfied with being indulged and elevated in status, but someone > who must, on top of that, tear down and oppress other people. It's one > thing to elevate yourself in life, it's quite another to do it by > pushing other people down. > > So, out of common defensive politeness, Harry would have shaken > Draco's hand. But when Draco crossed the line and insulted Ron, > Harry's first ever friend, there was no hope that Harry would ever > accept that. > > So, in a sense, not shaking Draco's hand was not something Harry did > against Draco, but something he did in support of Ron. If Draco had > left Ron out of it, he would have gotten his handshake. Moondance: I couldn't agree with this analysis more. I don't think Draco is even capable of having "friends" in the standard definition of the word. He has associations, relationships, partnerships, etc. that only work to his benefit. Thanks for these interesting random thoughts. Moondance From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 23:32:43 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 23:32:43 -0000 Subject: Why did Dumbledore call for Winky? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125433 Richard Jones wrote: > > > At the end of GOF, after the fake Mad-Eye Moody was caught but before > the polyjuice portion had worn off and he changed back to Barty > Crouch, Jr., Dumbledore had Winky brought from the kitchen. How did > he know that Winky would know anything about what was going on? > There was no apparent reason to suspect that the Crouch family was > involved. So what did Dumbledore know and when did he know it? a_svirn: Crouch Sr. had vanished from the Hogwarts grounds under the extremely fishy circumstances, so there was a very good reason for DD to suspect his involvement into this mess. But I think that he guessed whom he was dealing with while he listened to the last few exchanges between Harry and Crouch-fils. Harry saw the shapes in the foe-glass sharpening a few minutes before Moody/Crouch announced that he and LV "had the pleasure . . . the very great pleasure ... of killing our fathers to ensure the continued rise of the Dark Order!" Obviously DD waited for culprit to incriminate himself and only then stunned him. After he'd heard his last pronouncement he just put two and two together and arrived to the right conclusion. Still, it's a good question: "why call for Winky?" Why DD wanted her to witness the questioning? It is not immediately clear what he was trying to achieve apart from causing her a great deal of distress. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 00:39:37 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 00:39:37 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts on Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125434 "Steve" wrote: > As to whether Draco is pampered, spoiled, or indulged; I think not. > Draco comes from a family of wealth, privilege, and status. Because of > this, members of the family are expected to conduct themselves with > dignity, restraint, and formality at all times. a_svirn: And when and where did Draco demonstrate this "degree of restraint and formality"? I couldn't recall a single example. Steve: > Notice that the Malfoys produced one male heir and stopped having > kids. They had done their formal duty, they had done what society had > expected of them, and that is all they were obligated to do. a_svirn: Actually, it is considered prudent for those who are in habit of contracting strategic alliances to have at least two sons. A woman is said to have done her duty by her husband only when she's born a heir and a spare. The Prince of Wales's marriage being the case in point. Steve: > > At their first meeting in Madame Malkin's Robe shop, Draco > demonstrates his self-important formal privileged old-money > aristocratic values. a_svirn: Yes, he indeed "demonstrated" these values as you put it. And he did it precisely because he is spoilt rotten and rather unwise into the bargain. These values are not to be "demonstrated" they are to be implied as subtly as possible. Just imagine Prince William saying something of "not allowing commoners and all this riff-raff in Eton". I believe he could have caused a major constitutional crisis by remark like this! (Even though it would have been nothing but the truth). The meeting at Mme Malkin's was the first of many wasted opportunities for Draco to show some of this vaunted "restraint and formality" instead of bragging about his wealth and status in the most ill-bread manner possible. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 02:50:54 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 02:50:54 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy (was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125435 Betsy wrote: > > > Draco is not pampered by his parents. When he is introduced, he's been left alone in a shop while his parents split up to get the other shopping errands done (including buying his wand, which I thought was an Ollivander no-no). > Eustace_Scrubb responded: > A minor comment about the Malfoys' shopping trip: Draco tells Harry that "mother's up the street looking at wands," but it's open to interpretation whether she's _buying_ his wand. She may be doing some pre-screening for him, or maybe she's looking for a new wand for herself...we don't know. I agree that Ollivander wouldn't approve of Draco's mother choosing his wand for him. Also, this could be a way of indicating that the Malfoys don't really feel that parental oversight of the fitting for mere school robes is worth their time. Checking into the quintessential magic appliance--the wand--would be much more important. Carol adds: I think Eustace's explanation is reasonable. Surely the Malfoys would never let their son have a wand that wasn't exactly right for him. OTOh, Mrs. Malfoy probably assumed that only a handsome, expensive wand would be suitable for her son. So, to use Eustace's term, she "pre-screened" wands that seemed acceptable to her taste and budget, possibly trying out some of them herself on the (probably flawed) assumption that if they worked well for her, they'd work well for him. Then draco, who *is* somewhat pampered by his mother if not by his father (and is also apparently somewhat lazy if his "lazy drawl" is any indication), would have fewer wands to go through before making his choice. But I can't see Ollivander under any circumstances letting a parent choose a wand for a child--unless he was deliberately trying to undermine that child. And somehow I don't think Ollivander would do that. Carol From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 02:56:42 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 02:56:42 -0000 Subject: : Moody -- "Types"--Where Are the Bleeding Hearts? by Elkins' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125436 Kemper now: Moody my impression from GoF pensieve scenes is that he is a bit resentful ... the DE's and of Crouch letting people off that he knows without a doubt are guilty. Moody is under the impression in the Pensieve that Crouch will let Karkaroff. ... He believes Karkaroff will be set free, so he's probably feeling a sense of futility with his work. .... Moody is venting a bit to DD. Bleeding Heart Liberals I don't see any in the books. I see two, possibly three, Progressives: Dumbledore and Arthur Weasley, possibly Lily. Hermione is definitely Progressive leaning, but she needs a mentor. In GoF, SPEW has good intentions, but Hermione is placing her value system onto a different species and a different culture that is not ready to hear what an outsider has to say about their lifestyle. In OoP, she attempts to trick the House Elves into freedom. This `trick' does not allow the House Elf to be in choice. The `trick' is unethical and therefore wrong. Alla: "Crouch is going to let him out," Moody breathed quietly to Dumbledore. "He's done a deal with him. Took me six months to track him down , and Crouch is going to let him go if he's got enough few names . Let's hear his information, I say, and throw him straight back to the dementors" - GoF, p.388, paperback. I agree with Elkins that member of law enforcement who advocates to go back on plea bargaining with a prisoner does not sound as very ethical ethical law enforcement member to me. Nevertheless, I tend to agree that your explanation makes A LOT of sense , especially in light of quite sympathetic Moody in OOP ( to me at least) Moody is frustrated and upset, that is why he says it. Thank you! "I'll say this for Moody, though , he never killed if he could help it. Always brought people in alive where possible. He was tough, but he never descended to the level of Death Eaters" - GoF, p.532. "Never descended to the level of Death eaters" seems to me Real! Moody in the nutshell. I almost agree with your assesment of Hermione, but not quite. Sure, she is imposing her values on house - elves, but if it makes her not very ethical, I think her values do not become less liberal. I looked up online dictionaries and two of the relevant definitions of the word "liberal" are as follows: 1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. 2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. I guess you can argue that Hermione lacks "tolerance" in the sense that she does not tolerate house elves unwillinngness to be free. Forgive me for a bit of rambling. I think I am still undecided as to whether I consider Hermione a liberal or not. Just my opinion, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 04:46:00 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 04:46:00 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125437 I have been rereading Cos and had couple of questions. I do not remember those being discussed recently, so if someone could refer me to the message numbers, I will be very grateful. Tonight Yahoomort was just too much to handle. Remember when Collin is petrified and McGonagall and Dumbledore are having the following conversation: "It means," said Dumbledore, "that the Chamber of Secrets is indeed open again." Madam Pomfrey clapped a hand to her mouth. Professor McGonagall stared at Dumbledore. "But, Albus... surely... who?" "The question is not who," said Dumbledore, his eyes on colin. "The question is, how..." And from what Harry could see of Professor Mcgonagall's shadowy face, she didn't understand this any better than he did." - CoS, p.181 Now, it is a fact that Dumbledore suspected Tom Riddle back in the days, right? Does it mean that he knew for sure that Riddle/Voldie is back in Hogwarts? If said conclusion is true, does it mean that Harry's struggle in CoS was also just a test or at least half-test ( I am of the firm opinion that Philosopher stone was a test and the only thing which Dumbledore has not anticipated was him leaving school)? Did Dumbledore know for sure what was going to happen and the only thing he did not anticipate was Lucius making Board to suspend him? Second question. When Hedwig brings Harry a Cristmas gift from Dursleys. "She nibbled his ear in an affectionate sort of way, which was a far better present than one that she had brought him, which turned out to be from Dursleys. They had sent Harry a toothpick and a note telling him to find out whether he'd be able to stay at Hogwarts for summer vacation too." - CoS, p.212, paperback. Let's assume that Dursleys were serious when they wrote a note. We all know the drill about Harry's protection, right? Does it mean that Dursleys were not informed about the nature of the protection by Dumbledore? That he definitely must spend some time there. Does it mean that Dumbledore was still keeping secrets at the end of OOP and Harry does not necessarily have to return to Dursleys every year and can skip a year or two. Does it mean that Dursleys were hoping that protection deal will stop when Harry goes to Hogwarts? What does it mean? Alla From zanelupin at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 07:12:05 2005 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:12:05 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125438 Alla wrote: >>Remember when Collin is petrified and McGonagall and Dumbledore are having the following conversation: >>Now, it is a fact that Dumbledore suspected Tom Riddle back in the days, right? Does it mean that he knew for sure that Riddle/Voldie is back in Hogwarts? >>If said conclusion is true, does it mean that Harry's struggle in CoS was also just a test or at least half-test ( I am of the firm opinion that Philosopher stone was a test and the only thing which Dumbledore has not anticipated was him leaving school)? >> Did Dumbledore know for sure what was going to happen and the only thing he did not anticipate was Lucius making Board to suspend him?<< KathyK: To rephrase Dumbledore, it's the question of 'how' LV was doing it that was important. To me this says quite clearly that he believed from the start LV to be responsible for opening the Chamber. I don't believe Dumbledore *knew* Riddle/LV returned to Hogwarts. I think he had a lot of trouble figuring out this mystery. As he says after hearing what happened in the Chamber of Secrets: ***** "What interests *me* most," said Dumbledore gently, " is how Lord Voldemort managed to enchant Ginny, when my sources tell me he is currently in hiding in the forests of Albania." --CoS, Ch 18, Dobby's Reward, US ed p 328 ***** Obviously at this point Dumbledore had most of, and was about the get all the answers he's been seeking since the Chamber opened. I don't believe he had any idea about the particulars until he heard them from Harry. In other words, I don't think it was meant to be a test (in the way PS/SS seemed to be a test). Dumbledore had no choice but to allow events to unfold as they did because he genuinely didn't know *how* LV was able to open the Chamber. He had reason to believe LV was in Albania. Yet he knew Tom Riddle had previously opened the Chamber and seemed to have no doubt that he was doing so presently. What were the possible explanations? Let's see...His sources were mistaken, LV knew how to be in two places at once, someone else had managed to find their way into the Chamber either on their own or with LV's assistance, or the, IMO, unlikely scenario where Dumbledore knew exactly what was going on. I just don't think it's possible Dumbledore had quite the strong handle on the situation to allow it to be called a test. He may have suspected Harry & Co. were doing some investigating on their own, I do not know. What I do know is that he needed this mystery solved. One of the reasons I think he let the attacks go on to the point where he was removed is that he knew closing the school was not going to solve the problem. The attacks, whether perpetrated by LV in person, from afar, or another person, would not stop so long as the school was open. With the school closed, though, there was no particular reason for the Basilisk to roam outside the Chamber. Not to mention the perpetrator might be slipping through his fingers if everyone goes home. The mystery goes unsolved. With sufficient time passing, perhaps they re-open Hogwarts only to find muggleborns being attacked again, with no end in sight. Then what? Close Hogwarts permanently. Dumbledore wasn't about to see that happen. He needed the school open in order to solve the mystery. I think he anticipated more petrifications on the path to discover what was going on and I agree he didn't anticipate his own suspension. However,the events in CoS were not part of a well-orchestrated test designed for Harry at the expense of the safety and peace of mind of Hogwarts population. Alla: >> Second question. When Hedwig brings Harry a Cristmas gift from Dursleys. >> "They had sent Harry a toothpick and a note telling him to find out whether he'd be able to stay at Hogwarts for summer vacation too." - CoS, p.212, paperback. >> Let's assume that Dursleys were serious when they wrote a note. We all know the drill about Harry's protection, right? Does it mean that Dursleys were not informed about the nature of the protection by Dumbledore? That he definitely must spend some time there. >> Does it mean that Dumbledore was still keeping secrets at the end of OOP and Harry does not necessarily have to return to Dursleys every year and can skip a year or two. >> Does it mean that Dursleys were hoping that protection deal will stop when Harry goes to Hogwarts?<< KathyK: Perhaps only Petunia knew the particular nature of her agreement with Dumbledore and Vernon wrote this note. I also think you may be on to something when you mention the Dursleys may think their part in Harry's safety is over once he started Hogwarts. I wonder how detailed Dumbledore was with his explanation. Maybe they figured if Harry was going to Hogwarts, the wizard folk best be taking some responsibility for their own kind and leave nice, normal folks like themselves out of it. They'd done their part. The boy was alive. They'd even tried to go a bit further and keep him entirely away from that unsavory lot. Would have been best, really but since that magic school was bent on having him, well, they can *have* him then. I certainly *do not* think Dumbledore would tell Harry he must return to the Dursleys every year if he could get away with doing so less frequently. What would be the point of that? KathyK From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 07:16:19 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:16:19 -0000 Subject: Dept. of Mysteries Prophecies - Row 97=1997 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125439 > Geoff: > I tend to agree with Steve that the row number has little or no > significance. Finwitch: Well, me too. I mean really, how could we explain in-story from Unspeakables PoV how to pick the right row? Maybe they did Arithmancy on Trelawney's and Dumbledore's full names and ended up with 97? Too much bother. Or well, maybe they're just numbers and they've got a list somewhere... (You know, like some very equal graveyards...) Or maybe it's a code about their contents? (Like in a library; topic-code, author, title). Finwitch From kempermentor at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 08:07:49 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:07:49 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts on Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125440 Steve shared some thoughts: I think this degree of restraint and formality permeates all aspects of the Malfoys life; they way they view and interact with other people, the way they carry and conduct themselves, in the way they treat their kids, and indeed, even in Mr and Mrs Malfoy marriage and relationship. Mr and Mrs Malfoy's marriage is a dignified strategic alliance; the merging of two old respected wealthy pureblood families. There are limits and boundaries on who and how the old-money elite can marry, just as there are social restrictions on the marriages of the Royal Family. It is a social obligation. Heaven forbid that they should sully themselves with /common/ relationships. Kemper's thoughts: I'm not sure that Lucius comes from old-money. I think he married into old money when he married Narcissa. My impression of the very few people I know who are born into money is that they don't continue to tell you how wealthy they are or how poor you are. What they buy should impress upon others how wealthy they are without them needing to say out loud how rich they are. I think Lucius sees himself as `rich' and not `wealthy'. `Rich', to me, seems to be a word that someone who lives in absence/deficiency/poverty might use. As in, "I wish I was rich" or "I'm going to be rich someday." These phrases suggest envy. `Wealthy', to me, seems to be a word that someone who lives in abundance or born/raised in money might use. It suggests not only security but a way of life. Back to Steve's thoughts: So why would the son of a Death Eater (Draco) and the son of a Death Eater *fighter* (Harry) even remotely concided a friendship? Simple... strategic alliance. Harry is a hero in the wizard world, beyond a hero, he is a legend; he has status, and though rarely used, privilege in the wizard world. Naturally, Draco would want to align himself with other persons of status and privilege. Kemper's quick thought: Or simple strategy. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Back to Steve: Sadly, while Draco is adept at enjoying wealth, status, and privilege, he is not very good at playing the game. His father, Lucius, however is an expert a playing the game of power and privilege. Perhaps, he should have given Draco a few more lessons. Kemper: Even if Lucius was a natural mentor, he doesn't really know the rules of the Status Game to coach Draco effectively. All he knows is that money can buy things and privilege. Brooms and Fudge's ear. This is what Draco knows. I find it hard to believe that Draco is the only wealthy family in Slytherin. Why didn't their families chip in for some brooms for the team? I would guess that those families didn't need to prove that they had money. Quiditch is just a game. I seem to recall from JKR's site that in a synopsis of a deleted chapter we see Draco being uncomfortable/awkward with Theodore at the Nott mansion. Why? I am reminded of Willy Loman and his son Biff (or Happy?) from "Death of a Salesman" and their foil characters next door, also a father and son. Willy wants so much to be like his neighbor but fails miserably. Or for a more modern example BBC's "the Office". The character, David Brent, and his foil Neil Godwin. David is in a position of power but no one likes or respects him. Neil is in a position of power and is liked and respected. There is lots of funny in "the Office", much more than in "Death of a Salesman". I'm on a tangent. Theodore Nott, through jkr's site, doesn't seem to need to prove himself. Draco does. Nott seems to possess a subtle self assurance that Draco lacks. A self-assurance that was most likely role modeled by a father who was self assured and comfortable with himself and with his wealth. Lucius, OTOH, tries to present himself as self assured but comes across as an a-hole who might fear that he will no longer be rich. Kemper contributed thoughts and a tangent From tinglinger at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 00:40:43 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 00:40:43 -0000 Subject: Dept of Mysteries Prophecies - Row 97=1997 potterplots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125441 bboyminn: Well, I will admit it is an odd coincidence that the Prophecy is in Row 97, and that may have some significants, but oddly, I don't think it's significant significants. Geoff: I tend to agree with Steve that the row number has little or no significance. But - and it's a significant but - from the Wizarding World's point of view, the confrontation could have taken place any time after 31st July 1980. We know that Voldemort tried to achieve that outcome very quickly and failed disastrously. At intervals, he has re-emerged in one form or another to try to deal with his nemesis - and so far still proving to be unsuccessful. So I believe that row 97 might be another of JKR's red fish or possibly she just dropped on 97 as being a nice sounding number to use. Time will tell. Tinglinger/Samnanya: I wonder then why JKR even bothered with the whole deathday chapter in COS and Nick's birthday cake. 1492 would be a lame date to use if not for the link to 1992 when COS takes place. This is a possilbe link to the row 97 discussed upthread. I just wonder why the details were even given. Too many herrings can smell up a book. If I have learned anything from this series, precious little written in the series has proven to be irrelevant. I am certain even GRAWP will be useful eventually..... That said, My greatest pleasure in reading the potter books is appreciating the tightly knitted puzzle/plot that is now snowballing rapidly to it's conclusion, whatever it may be. I can't think of any fantasy series that was both complex and consistant that held my interest over the lifetime of the series. The fact that no one has found any major flints in the plotting is extraordinary; the fact that no one has "figured it all out" is even more impressive. I know that JKR loves puzzles since they are an integral part of at least two of the books. Though puzzles and plot twists can slow down a book if not handled properly, they can also add the spice that keeps me reading far into the night. Other readers can believe what they want about whether a given item is a clue or red herring, but to me at least, that is the fun in the reading. To me, I would have punked out after SS if I did not sense that JKR enjoys writing these books as much as most of her readers enjoy reading them. Some series are finished and no reason exists to reread or relive the experience again. To me, each book in this series provides many unanswered questions to think about long after the book has made it's way back to my bookshelf, only to reappear again and again like the timeturner cabinet in the MOM. Being a mathematician (more specifically an actuary) I enjoy solving puzzles and playing with paradox, and I have spent countless hours working on riddles and puzzles for the sheer joy of it. If there is one flaw in this group, (to be fair, the flaw is with me not the group), it is that I have assumed that many members of this group share the same pleasure in analyzing the books and looking for clues in an attempt to "predict the future" that I have. After being active here since just before OOP, I realize that I was wrong. This group is a discussion forum rather than a detective agency, as it states, and I have been remiss in expecting too much regarding plot dissection. So, to try to satisfy my need to "peek behind the magician's veil", I have started a yahoo group called potterplots to post some of the more intriguing theories presented by both myself and others (with their permission) - theories that may not be popular but have some validity; theories that were never dismissed out of hand yet never discussed for whatever reason; theories such as the trichotomy theory of the prophecy that I originally presented in 105955 that was not commented on hardly at all, though still shows up in part in posts published since, or the now infamous "Luna was not on the train leaving Hogwarts" post that was never really addressed or changed and remains the only obvious error in the Harry Potter Lexicon (OOP - The Second War Begins Chapter Summary). Sometimes theories have worn out their welcome at HPFGU and get as smelly as the red herrings they may or may not be if posted over and over in an attempt to get answers that the group is not interested in commenting on for whatever reason. IMO these theoies do need a home. So ....... if any of you are interested in the subplots and puzzles and predictability aspects of the series, please check out and [gasp] join the potterplots group. I still enjoy posting here and am also interested in getting some answers rather than just opinions, but I do want to have some theories see light of day and not get lost within the posts or tossed out like herrings wrapped in old newspapers. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 08:46:37 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:46:37 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts on Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > "Steve" wrote: > > > As to whether Draco is pampered, spoiled, or indulged; I think > > not. Draco comes from a family of wealth, privilege, and status. > > Because of this, members of the family are expected to conduct > > themselves with dignity, restraint, and formality at all times. > a_svirn: > > And when and where did Draco demonstrate this "degree of restraint > and formality"? I couldn't recall a single example. bboyminn (steve): When I refer to 'degree of restraint and formality', I am referring to Draco's general public face. What he does in private, especially what he does away from the gaze of his parents is quite another thing. But the /private face/ of everyone, especially when they are out of sight of authority figures is always quite different than their public face. > Steve: > > > Notice that the Malfoys produced one male heir and stopped having > > kids. They had done their formal duty, they had done what society > > had expected of them, and that is all they were obligated to do. > a_svirn: > > Actually, it is considered prudent for those who are in habit of > contracting strategic alliances to have at least two sons. A woman > is said to have done her duty by her husband only when she's born a > heir and a spare. The Prince of Wales's marriage being the case in > point. bboyminn (steve): We are arguing the finer points now. The more general point is the continuation of the bloodline and the family name, and in Draco, they have that. Besides, by wizard standards, Mr and Mrs Malfoy are relatively young, and in Draco's absents, should duty call again, they are still in a position to produce another heir. > Steve: > > > > At their first meeting in Madame Malkin's Robe shop, Draco > > demonstrates his self-important formal privileged old-money > > aristocratic values. > a_svirn: > > Yes, he indeed "demonstrated" these values as you put it. And he did > it precisely because he is spoilt rotten and rather unwise into the > bargain. These values are not to be "demonstrated" they are to be > implied as subtly as possible. bboyminn (steve): Well, I did say that Draco doesn't really understand how to play the 'old-money' game very well. In a sense, in the Madame Malkin's Robe Shop scene, Draco is testing Harry, testing him in the sense of trying to find out who his is, and whether he is a social equal to Draco, at least on some level. "But they were /our/* kind, weren't they?" (* author emphasis) "I really don't think they should let the /other/* kind in, do you? (* my emphasis) "/They're/* just not the same, they...never...know /our/* ways." (* both my emphasis) "I think they should keep it in old wizarding families." The Draco concludes with... "What's your surname, anyway?" [SS/PS, Am Ed, PB pg 98] Draco clearly lays out his own aristocratic postion, in the process, trying to get a picture of where Harry stands. Is he sympathetic to the pureblood cause? Finally asking the big question of Harry's surname. Draco is maintaining a degree of social aloofness and restrained formality even as he is giving away his pureblood bias. I don't think in this case Draco is so much bragging, as he is trying to establish the social /pecking order/ between them; superior, inferior, or equal, and in what ways. This represents an in-between social face for Draco. It's a private conversation between potential equals, in the presents of insignificant servants and underlings (the shopkeepers and attendants). So, Draco can afford to be a little more bold than he could in a completely public situation. At the same time, Draco does not gush, fawn, or speak with giddy delight; he maintains an aloof, restrained dignity suiting his social status. As far as Draco being spoiled, that's a very tricky game of subtle definitions and interpretaitons. I prefaced my original post with... 'As to whether Draco is pampered, spoiled, or indulged; I think not.' That is, 'I think not' in the sense that other people in the various Draco discussion are portraying him. I go on to say in a later paragraph that Draco very probably does have the best of everything, and has it in opulent excess. Being a person of wealth, status, and privilege, very often Draco does get exactly what he wants (materially). But Draco is so indulged as a matter of the normal course of his position of wealth and status. Where as Dudley is indulged and behaves in a very different way. Given his social status, if Draco behaved as Dudley does, in such an undignified manner, it would be scandalous. However, in the private company of friends and in the private domain of unsupervised school, we see a lot of Dudley in Draco's bullying behavior. Draco is just much more classy about it than Dudley, and that 'classiness' is the very point I am making. Dudley bullies in a loud, obnoxious, uncouth, brute force, no-brains sort of way. Draco bullies with some sense of dignified restraint, and some attempt at sophistication. While we can draw many parallels between Dudley and Draco's actions, we see a big difference in their motivations and attitude. Not so much defending Draco as just trying to put things in perspective. Steve/bboyminn From kempermentor at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 08:47:03 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:47:03 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal: was re: Moody -- "Types"--Where Are the Bleeding Hearts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125443 Kemper (me) earlier: In GoF, SPEW has good intentions, but Hermione is placing her value system onto a different species and a different culture that is not ready to hear what an outsider has to say about their lifestyle. In OoP, she attempts to trick the House Elves into freedom. This `trick' does not allow the House Elf to be in choice. The `trick' is unethical and therefore wrong. Alla responded: I almost agree with your assessment of Hermione, but not quite. Sure, she is imposing her values on house - elves, but if it makes her not very ethical, I think her values do not become less liberal. Kemper now: I need to clarify I don't think her liberal/progressive values are unethical. I think taking away another's choice is. But I don't think Hermione realizes that is what she's doing. When she does, I think she will take a different tactic for elf-rights. Perhaps meeting with Doby and having him approach House Elves who are `enslaved' in some abusive homes. Hermione is trying to change the minds of Hogwart's elves, who seem to be treated well and who may fear being freed out of fear that they will work in an abusive home. Freeing the House Elves isn't enough. Hermione, or more likely Doby, will have to teach them the tools for what it means to be free. Doby appeared to have difficulty prior to coming-on at Hogwarts. It would be unfair to the House Elves to free them and then not guide them to a culture of freedom. There might be chaos. Hermione can't revolutionize a culture over night. Change is a process not an event. Back to Alla: I looked up online dictionaries and two of the relevant definitions of the word "liberal" are as follows: 1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. 2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. I guess you can argue that Hermione lacks "tolerance" in the sense that she does not tolerate house elves unwillinngness to be free. Forgive me for a bit of rambling. I think I am still undecided as to whether I consider Hermione a liberal or not. Kemper now: I'm not arguing Hermione's lack of tolerance; I'm arguing her lack of consideration towards a people who have a seemingly unchanged culture that has continued for centuries. I consider Hermione a liberal as you have well defined it. But again, she could use a mentor. Kemper Thanking Alla for the opportunity to expound on the thread. From naama_gat at hotmail.com Thu Mar 3 10:53:53 2005 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:53:53 -0000 Subject: Dating Muggleborns(was: Where does it say that Molly is a pureblood fanatic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125444 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > >>Naama: > >From what we've seen, Molly's attitude towards Muggles is the > prevalent, normal one in the WW (which we see in McGonagall's > description of the Dursleys in the beginning of PS, for instance). > It's kind of the premise of the books and the way *JKR* uses the > term. Muggles are clueless, magic-less, afraid of the different. The > divide between Muggles and wizards is unambigous and unproblematic.< > > Betsy: > But that's exactly the problem. If you think an entire race of > people are "other" how would you look at their children? Yes, > Hermione is a witch, yes, she's a good little assimilator, barely > visiting her parents over school breaks. But she's been raised by > Muggles. Who knows what wierd and immoral things Muggles may teach > their children? But that's precisely the argument I made - that while it makes sense psychologically, it's not the way JKR has it in her Potterverse. You are continuing to apply RL common sense to a fictional world, that is specifically different in this regard. > > >>Naama: > >The thing that JKR portrays as problematic is the attitude to > Muggleborns. It may seem psychologically sound that if you look down > on Muggles (as the entire WW does), you would look down on > Muggleborns too. However, that is not the case in the Potterverse. > Some do that and some don't. Those who do are both wrong and evil.< > > Betsy: > I think you're reading the books in a much more black and white > fashion then I am. Because I would say that the overall attitude > amongst the WW is that Muggleborns are not to be completely > trusted. Fudge is a good barometer for prevailing Wizarding views, > and he distrusts Muggleborns. He doesn't hate them, he doesn't > think they should be destroyed (I don't think he's been portrayed >as out and out evil, either) but he doesn't trust them. Evidence? He is a snob in his regard for pure bloods, but I can't remember him expressing distrust of Muggleborns. > > >>Naama: > >Basically what I've tried to say is that, yes, Molly shows the > normal condescending attitude to Muggles, but that doesn't > necessarily imply (in the Potterverse) that this "taints" her view > of Muggleborns.< > > Betsy: > But of course is does, and within the Potterverse. Again, look at > Fudge. He condescendes to Muggles, and his view of Muggleborns are > therefore tainted. Rita Skeeter had already published lies about > the Weasley family. Why did Molly so quickly and easily believe >her this time? The only logical explination is that Hermione was >raised by Muggles, and Molly *knows* that Muggles (and therefore >their offspring) are somehow... different. No, it's not the only logical explanation - but I've already made what I think is a convincing case, so I won't repeat it here. And if you want to make counter arguments, could you please base them on textual evidence? I am getting tired of reiterated opinions that are unsupported by cannon. Naama From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 15:02:46 2005 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:02:46 -0000 Subject: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125445 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: [snipperdoodle] > And, honestly, I don't really blame him for leaving. Beyond the > whole, "you got your job so they could use you to spy on me," > argument, the twins were horrible to him. And I don't recall either > parent doing anything to protect Percy from them. I don't think--and I may be a crowd of one on this--that the twins were particularly HORRIBLE to Percy. Yes, they teased him and yes, they made fun of him, but I don't know that what they did to him rose to the standard of an "attack." However, I am curious as to how the denizens of this august body would classify the various characters' types. Curious, -Joe in SoFla From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 3 15:39:12 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:39:12 -0000 Subject: Who is the HBP? In-Reply-To: <000701c51f4d$0704b8e0$6501a8c0@Magister> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125446 > bbkkyy55 wrote: > > >I've always thought it might be Victor Krum. JKR mentioned him again > >in OOTP, so he must be important for some reason. Also in a quote > >she said he would appear again. He's just mysterious enough. My > >vote is Victor Krum. Dorothy replied: > I am with you on this. I find the name "Krum" interesting, as it was the name of a ruler of Bulgaria. This web site http://www.bulgaria.com/history/rulers/krum.html calls him, "energetic, courageous and steadfast ruler, ruthless when necessary," and gives a lot of other information. For instance, it says, "But he is equally celebrated for another important contribution: Bulgaria's first written laws." He ruled from 803-814. > > If Viktor (not the meaning of his given name) is a descendant with a muggle father and witch mother, he might well be called a half- blood prince. Hannah: The only problem I'd have with this theory is how Krum could be a half-blood. Durmstrang doesn't let in muggle-borns (of course, that may not extend to half bloods, but I suspect that it does). Also, Karkaroff thinks Krum is great - yet evil Igor has every appearance of being a genuine pureblood supremacist. Would he really like Krum so much if the boy was half blooded? And then there's Hagrid's comment to Harry in GoF about him wanting Harry to win to prove you don't have to be pureblooded to do it. That suggests to me again that Krum is pureblood. Of course, it could be argued that Krum may be a secret half-blood (his father's not who they think he is etc.) But I still doubt it (mind you, I think it's Colin Creevey, so who am I to talk?). The other thing that doesn't fit so well is JKR's original intention to have the storyline of the HBP in CoS. I can't see how she could have worked Krum into that book without making some very drastic changes. Just my opinion of course. The bit about the possible royal family connection is interesting though. Hannah From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 3 15:56:31 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:56:31 -0000 Subject: Who is the HBP? (Krum) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com "bbkkyy55" (message 125403) > I've always thought it might be Victor Krum. JKR mentioned him >again in OOTP, so he must be important for some reason. Also in a >quote she said he would appear again. He's just mysterious >enough. My vote is Victor Krum. "K": Though JKR did mention we would see Krum again, she also mentioned it would not be any time soon. ____________________________________________________________ JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004 bertieana: Will we be seeing Krum again any time soon? JK Rowling replies - You will see Krum again, though not soon. _____________________________________________________________ I do believe the HBP is a real person but I don't necessarily believe it has to be someone alive at this moment. He could be someone from the past. "K" From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 3 16:11:53 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:11:53 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125448 Alla wrote: > Now, it is a fact that Dumbledore suspected Tom Riddle back in the > days, right? Does it mean that he knew for sure that Riddle/Voldie > is back in Hogwarts? > > If said conclusion is true, does it mean that Harry's struggle in > CoS was also just a test or at least half-test ( I am of the firm > opinion that Philosopher stone was a test and the only thing which > Dumbledore has not anticipated was him leaving school)? > > Did Dumbledore know for sure what was going to happen and the only > thing he did not anticipate was Lucius making Board to suspend him? > Hannah: I think Dumbledore always knew, or strongly suspected it was Riddle the first time. By the time Riddle had become Voldemort, it was confirmed to DD. When the attacks began again, DD knew it must be LV behind it, as he is the heir, and has no children of his own. But he doesn't know how LV is achieving it, as he says to McGonagall. I always find it a bit hard to believe that DD couldn't have worked out a bit more than he did, given his supposed omniscience. That's never sat easily with me. If he was doing it to test Harry, it was a massive risk. It was only luck that none of the students attacked actually looked the basilisk in the eye. I suppose we have to accept that he really didn't know how to solve the problem, unless we subscribe to puppetmaster!DD. And even for him, that would be a very large risk, which didn't pay off terribly well. Alla continued: > Let's assume that Dursleys were serious when they wrote a note. We > all know the drill about Harry's protection, right? Does it mean > that Dursleys were not informed about the nature of the protection > by Dumbledore? That he definitely must spend some time there. > Does it mean that Dumbledore was still keeping secrets at the end of OOP and Harry does not necessarily have to return to Dursleys every year and can skip a year or two. > Does it mean that Dursleys were hoping that protection deal will > stop when Harry goes to Hogwarts? Hannah: I reckon the Dursleys were trying it on, to see if the protection thing still applied. I think they know at least something of the protection, but maybe not how long they need to carry on offering it. They may well have assumed they no longer had to carry on with it now Harry was at Hogwarts. I think Harry does have to go back every summer, as Dumbledore says. If he skipped a year or two, they really would be forcing the definition of 'home.' I think the four-six weeks a year he spends there is the absolute minimum as it is. Hannah From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 17:00:49 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:00:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050303170049.14797.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125449 > I don't think--and I may be a crowd of one on this--that the twins > were particularly HORRIBLE to Percy. Yes, they teased him and yes, > they made fun of him, but I don't know that what they did to him > rose to the standard of an "attack." > > -Joe in SoFla I think the twins' pranking of Percy did increase in severity as the series advanced and that it reflected the increasing severity of their pranking overall. Personally I think they went over the line when they sent him the dragon dung at the office. Pranking at home is one thing; going outside the home to Percy's place of employment was quite another. Pranking and practical jokes are not a light-hearted thing; they're funny tricks (to those not on the receiving end of them) designed to deflate someone or in some other way disconcert them. There really is nothing friendly in being pranked; notice that the twins don't prank their friends in the series. Showing off their pranking products is different; people know in advance that somethings supposed to happen. (Although Hermione was right to come down on them for experimenting on first-years.) Just because Percy didn't dissolve into tears in front of Harry doesn't mean that he didn't have feelings. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 17:43:48 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:43:48 -0000 Subject: Riddle's Bones Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125450 In GoF book we only saw some of Riddle's Bone dust, but I always felt it would have been more powerful if a ghastly white grinning skull with patches of dried blackened skin still clinging to it came out of the grave and plopped into the caldron with a sickening slash. I suppose Rowling felt that would have been a little too powerful. Eggplant From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 17:53:31 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:53:31 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal: was re: Moody -- "Types"--Where Are the Bleeding Hearts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125451 > Kemper now: > > I'm not arguing Hermione's lack of tolerance; I'm arguing her lack of > consideration towards a people who have a seemingly unchanged culture > that has continued for centuries. Finwitch: I think that disrespect of another culture is what I find wrong in what Hermione's doing. AND of the individual elves. She doesn't listen to them, she has a patronizing attitude towards them. She may have managed to memorize history as Dates, Contracts, Wars, Borders -- but does she understand the great lines? The cultures gone since the arrival of the europeans - first they come and teach this new culture how their food sources and other environment-suited cultural things are 'wrong'. Then they leave, and the people no longer have the means to survive on their own. Africa and India. Finwitch From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 18:29:36 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:29:36 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125452 "finwitch" wrote: > I think that disrespect of another > culture is what I find wrong in > what Hermione's doing. I agree Hermione should not have tried to trick the Elves into freedom but I don't think you should respect ALL other cultures, some cultures deserve no respect. Eggplant From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 18:38:46 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:38:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's a liberal: was re: Moody -- "Types"--Where Are the Bleeding Hearts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050303183846.52711.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125453 > Finwitch: > > I think that disrespect of another culture is what I find wrong in > what Hermione's doing. AND of the individual elves. She doesn't > listen to them, she has a patronizing attitude towards them. > She may have managed to memorize history as Dates, Contracts, Wars, > Borders -- but does she understand the great lines? To anyone who's spent their life working in the non-profit sector, JKR's presentation of Hermione as a teenager discovering that life is not fair for everyone is so bang-on that it's scary. Self-righteous, hectoring behaviour on the part of teens when they take up a cause is quite natural and at the risk of sounding patronizing I'd describe it as a natural phase that they have to go through before moving on to a more realistic appraisal of solutions to social problems. Hermione's still at the stage where she thinks announcing that something is a problem is most of the solution. I don't find Hermione's championing of SPEW or her militaristic knitting habit to be the big problem; for me, her biggest mistake is that she infantilizes individual elves: nothing is ever their fault, they have no power over their own actions or activities, they are simply passive recipients of others' abuse. She underestimates the degree of autonomy that they might have in a particular situation: as the lone House Elf in the Crouch household, Winky was able to successfully negotiate with Crouch Sr. on Crouch Jr.'s behalf. Also she didn't really appreciate the extent to which Kreacher's devotion to his late master's beliefs would lead him to actively try to harm Sirius and the Order. This to me is Hermoine's weak spot, not any patronizing attitude or ignorance of another group's personal history. Magda __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From kcawte at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 3 18:45:05 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:45:05 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's a liberal References: Message-ID: <42275B31.000001.00296@KATHRYN> No: HPFGUIDX 125454 Eggplant I agree Hermione should not have tried to trick the Elves into freedom but I don't think you should respect ALL other cultures, some cultures deserve no respect. K I'm not going to address the validity of that statement in and of itself but rather ask - who would you have be the judge as to which cultures deserve respect and which don't. Hermione should concentrate on making sure the house elves have a choice about whether they follow the particular 'rules' of their culture or whether they choose to live outside of them like Dobby. Rather than trying to take that choice from them. Hermione is no more allowing the Elves free will than the rest of the wizarding world. Whether all cultures deserve respect or not is another matter for a more lengthy discussion I fear but I wonder what gives someone the right to decide which cultures are worthy of respect and which are not. K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From t.forch at email.dk Thu Mar 3 19:53:35 2005 From: t.forch at email.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 20:53:35 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050303204742.00be6f00@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 125455 At 18:29 03-03-05 +0000, you wrote: >"finwitch" wrote: > > > I think that disrespect of another > > culture is what I find wrong in > > what Hermione's doing. > >I agree Hermione should not have tried to trick the Elves into freedom >but I don't think you should respect ALL other cultures, some cultures >deserve no respect. Though I suspect that you and I would mostly agree on which cultures (or cultural aspects) we would rather not treat with respect, I do have a problem with such a statement. Realising that most of the population of this world would rather treat my own culture with disdain[1], I can't help asking who should be allowed to make the judgement? With whom would we invest the right to doom certain cultures to disrespect? Certainly not me -- I know that. [1] How else can one regard a culture where the majority happily pay half their income in taxes, and then go on to pay 25% VAT on top of everything they buy with the remaining half -- effectively paying about 60% of /all/ income in taxes . . . just to pay for various social benefits (and, yes, I do pay up happily). Troels From xcpublishing at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 22:01:35 2005 From: xcpublishing at yahoo.com (xcpublishing) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:01:35 -0000 Subject: who is the HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125456 "virgivilla" writes: >I think the half blood prince is Godric Griffindor, but every one I >have told this thinks Im crazy. Hi there! Last month the other list (HPFGU- OTChatter at yahoogroups.com) posted a survey and this was the first question. As of today, the statistics are as follows: A NEW character leads with 13 votes Godric Gryffindor next with 9 votes Lupin has 5 One of the Weasley's has 4 And the rest are scattered 3s, 2s and 1s: Snape, Lupins' Dad, Felix, Creevy, Dumbledore, Neville, Seamus, Dean, NH Nick, Crookshanks, Draco, Sirius, James and Grawp. Can't wait to see who's right! Nicky Joe From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 22:20:44 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:20:44 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy (was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125457 >>Hannah: >I would also say that we don't really know how academically competitive Draco is or isn't - there's not enough information.< Betsy: I base my idea that Draco is academically competitive on a couple of things from canon. There's the scene with his father where he's admonished for not beating a Muggleborn witch in CoS. Then there's the scene in OotP when Snape hands out Potion papers and Draco acts shocked when Snape says some of the class failed, IIRC. He also mocks Harry for taking remedial potions. None of this puts Draco on level with Hermione in academic interest, of course, but it shows that he does have *some* interest in grades, and sees failure as a bad thing. It also shows that his father is interested in his grades, and if his father wants him to do well academically, I imagine Draco is interested as well. Dudley, on the other hand, seemed completely uninterested in school work, and his parents, unfortunately, encouraged him in this. >>Betsy: >The sweets from home could be from Narcissa (out of love, out of appearances?), they could be from a house-elf. We don't know.< >>Hannah: >I doubt the packages are from a house elf. Dobby was the Malfoy's house-elf and at no point has he ever shown any interest in or affection for Draco. I don't think that it's a case of poor-little- Draco being looked after by the kindly elves. Even if the elves make the packages themselves, it would be at the instruction of Narcissa, so she must have some interest in her son.< Betsy: I agree with you, Hannah. I threw out the house-elf idea just as a random suggestion. More than likely the packages come from Narcissa because she cares about her son. I was just trying to point out that we really don't know what the mother-son relationship is like because we've seen so little of it. And most of our information is second hand or open to interpertation. JKR could take this side of the story in any direction, really, and not contradict herself. (Though I doubt we'll learn much more than we otherwise know. Draco is interesting, but he's not the main character, and barely one of the secondaries. Unless he becomes the much anticipated "good Slytherin" there's no knowing if his character will become more fleshed out, and more of his history shared.) >>Hannah: >We only see Draco once in the whole of that holiday, for all of about ten minutes. He might have been doing *anything.* And Lucius is a governor at the school - I don't think he needs Draco's input to be able to find out if anything major happens. And for everything else heir-related he has Snape - who should be reliable from Lucius' POV on this matter.< Betsy: I didn't think of Snape here (D'oh!). He *would* be a good informer. Unless, maybe Lucius was making absolutely sure that no one knew of his involvement? It was a pretty dangerous game he was playing, and the less folks who knew, the more secure the secret. Lucius may have been the only person who knew about the diary and him putting it into play. If that was the case, leaving Draco at school for Christmas would be a good way to stay informed. Draco wouldn't even need to realize his father's role in anything. Lucius could just act interested for curiousity's sake, and Draco would keep him in the know. As to Lucius being a school-governor, I think the Hogwarts staff were trying to keep things as hushed as possible. So they may have delayed getting information to the board. This is all conjecture, of course. I don't think there's anything in canon to tell us one way or another. Same with the Draco as the Slytherin Sleuth. I would think he and the Trio would have crossed paths at some point, if he'd been working the mystery too, but not necessarily. >>Hannah: >We know nothing about what Lucius was trying to do in PS/SS, as we don't see him. He is a school governor in CoS, and I suspect he was in PS/SS. I doubt that he suddenly decided to enter politics at the start of CoS - I think he's been schmoozing his way in from the day he 'recovered from the Imperius Curse.'< Betsy: A lot of my ideas on Lucius come from this essay, which I've pimped here before and will not hesitate to do again : http://www.livejournal.com/community/hp_essays/7250.html It's not the entire thrust of the essay, but the author talks about Lucius staying pretty low after his "imperius curse" tale, mainly because he made a deal with Crouch, Sr. Though even if you don't buy the deal theory, it *does* make sense that if Lucius got away with being a Death Eater, he'd do his best to not rock the boat, unless he felt he had no choice. When we are introduced to him in CoS he's suddenly selling off dark items and taking a huge risk to try and taint Arthur Weasley and possibly remove Dumbledore from Hogwarts. It's around this time that he gets to know Fudge (we know they're not old buddies, because Fudge doesn't know his wife and son in GoF) and starts donating gobs of money to worthy causes, and making a general display of his wealth. Why? And why now? I think the key to Lucius' behavior is given at the opening of CoS, when Arthur Weasley comes back from a midnight raid. Weasley, and his folk, are raiding Malfoy, and his folk. In a sense, Weasley has declared war on Malfoy, so Malfoy is fighting back, using the weapons at his disposal. So I *do* think that Lucius has "suddenly decided" to enter politics, because he's been given no choice. (Not that I'm saying Arthur should have left Lucius alone: sometimes you have to tickle the dragon. hee! I punned the Hogwarts' motto! I'm clever! ) >>Hannah: >It depends how subtly Lucius has planted the idea into Draco's head. By your own argument, I doubt Draco would do anything that he thinks his father would disapprove of. >But I can't see that he would have such an extreme adversion to Draco that he wouldn't be able to bear to spend a few minutes at least suggesting that he might want to get to know Harry Potter.< Betsy: There's truth to that. Lucius could have suggested Harry Potter as a friend in such a manner that Draco thought it was his idea. And if it was something Lucius was interested in, he wouldn't hesitate to set his son to the task. So yes, it *could* have happened that way. I just doubt that it was Draco's prime motivating factor in approaching Harry, and I also doubt it was his prime motive for trying to become friends. I think Draco was genuinely interested in befriending Harry Potter, both before he knew who Harry was, and after. Betsy From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 23:22:39 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:22:39 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts on Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125458 >>Steve/bboyminn: >As to whether Draco is pampered, spoiled, or indulged; I think not. Draco comes from a family of wealth, privilege, and status. Because of this, members of the family are expected to conduct themselves with dignity, restraint, and formality at all times. >At their first meeting in Madame Malkin's Robe shop, Draco demonstrates his self-important formal privileged old-money aristocratic values. This may have been something that others would have recognised and been drawn too. But Harry, having lived with the overindulged or over-privileged Dudley, was turned off by it. >So, when Draco re-meets Harry on the train, he tries his best at playing the power and status game as he understands it. His approach is that /He/ is someone special, and that /He/ can help Harry form the proper strategic alliances, and that /He/ can save Harry from the horrible mistake of associating with /commoners/. Draco is offerring to be Harry guide through the world of power and privilege, but fails to understand the austere and underprivileged life that Harry has lead, never having been underprivileged himself.< Betsy: Yes, yes, yes! That's exactly what I think. Draco, interested in becoming Harry's friend, tries to impress Harry by doing an impression of his father, all aristocratic breeding and the proper amount of disdain for things not truly Wizard. That's all Draco's known, and so it's all he knows to do. He has no *idea* how off- putting he's being, and so he goes and does the same thing on the train. I'll bet he's watched his father act similarly with other folk, and they *fawned* over his father, so why should Harry be any different? (Though I'd also point out that Draco hit the Quidditch angle and the "what House do you want" angle while in the dress shop, which any eleven year old wizard would naturally have views on. So Draco *is* trying to bring up topics of mutual interest.) What's interesting to me is that Draco worked so hard to impress a boy in badly fitting Muggle clothes. I imagine Draco was pretty sheltered up until Hogwarts, but he *had* to have noticed that Harry was dressed differently. Was it the differences that drew him? Or was Draco just eager to befriend a fellow Hogwarts student? Things I sometimes ponder. >>Steve/bboyminn: >But Draco isn't content to build himself up, he has to tear Ron down in the process. >So, in a sense, not shaking Draco's hand was not something Harry did against Draco, but something he did in support of Ron. If Draco had left Ron out of it, he would have gotten his handshake.< Betsy: One thing to add to this: Ron insulted Draco first; he sniggered at Draco's name. It was a small insult, yes, and I think Draco acted all out of proportion, but there you are. >>Kemper: >I'm not sure that Lucius comes from old-money. I think he married into old money when he married Narcissa. My impression of the very few people I know who are born into money is that they don't continue to tell you how wealthy they are or how poor you are. What they buy should impress upon others how wealthy they are without them needing to say out loud how rich they are.< Betsy: I totally agree with you here. I'm quite sure Lucius came from old pure-blood stock that had absolutely nothing to it's name. I think Lucius married well, and may have made some judicious political moves that also added to his once empty coffers. (After all, for a long while there, Voldemort was winning.) But he is too outwardly "money aware" to come from old wealth. The very fact that Lucius feels the need to attack Weasley for his poverty suggests that poverty is one of Lucius's biggest fears. I doubt Draco is too familier with the family's monetary history, but I'm sure he's picked up on his father's money tensions. Children always do. >>Kemper: >Even if Lucius was a natural mentor, he doesn't really know the rules of the Status Game to coach Draco effectively. All he knows is that money can buy things and privilege. Brooms and Fudge's ear. This is what Draco knows.< Betsy: Oh, I think Lucius does have *some* ideas on how the game is played. He's done too well for himself (without taking on a career), and he did land a Black daughter. I think it's more that Draco is not suited, personality-wise, for the kind of games Lucius plays. Lucius strikes me as a leader of his peers, but Draco, though he's a Prefect, seems more like a class-clown than a Slytherin Leader. I also have doubts as to Draco's ruthlessness. His attacks on Harry have all been so... innocent, really. Badges and dress-up, no real humiliation or bodily endangerment at all. I get the feeling that if Lucius had been Harry's peer, he'd have been a much bigger threat. Probably because Harry wouldn't have seen him coming. Because Draco doesn't measure up to his father's expectations, I think that Lucius gives Draco very little training. So Draco apes his father without fully understanding the power behind Lucius's actions. I would also add that we cannot overlook Narcissa who most definitely comes from an old and moneyed family. I'm sure she's had some input in Draco's upbringing. >>Kemper: >I find it hard to believe that Draco is the only wealthy family in Slytherin. Why didn't their families chip in for some brooms for the team? I would guess that those families didn't need to prove that they had money. Quiditch is just a game.< Betsy: Ah, now here, I think, Lucius is desperately trying to *prove* that he's still quite wealthy. Maybe it wasn't a cheap business, getting excused as an Imperio victim back when Voldemort first fell. Maybe Lucius had to dig rather deeply into the family coffers at the time and now there's not much left with which to gain Fudge's support. After all, he's *selling off* portions of the family estate in the beginning of CoS. Which leaves me to wonder - how well off *are* the Malfoy's now? Will Narcissa have anything with which to bargin for her husband's freedom, or will they have to wait on Voldemort's pleasure? Again, I ponder. Betsy From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 3 23:51:36 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:51:36 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy (was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125459 > Hannah: > > >I would also say that we don't really know how academically > competitive Draco is or isn't - there's not enough information.< > > Betsy: > there's the scene in OotP when Snape hands out Potion papers and > Draco acts shocked when Snape says some of the class failed, > IIRC. Valky: Now IIRC Draco hides his result from the class after he says this, and I am not sure but I think Harry sees a low mark on Dracos paper before he can hide it. OTOh I *do* think that Draco is academically competitive in some area, we just haven't seen it up close yet. > > >>Betsy: > >The sweets from home could be from Narcissa (out of love, out of > appearances?), they could be from a house-elf. We don't know.< > > >>Hannah: > >I doubt the packages are from a house elf. Dobby was the > Malfoy's house-elf and at no point has he ever shown any interest > in or affection for Draco. Valky: I had been thinking about this very thing not long ago. Does anyone recall if Dobby and Draco *have* bumped into each other in Hogwarts? Because I was wondering if Dobby did have a parental role in Draco's younger days, perhaps there is an affection between them that we have yet to see. Imagine Dobby talking to Harry in a corridor one day and Draco chancing upon them. What would happen, would Draco be quietly thrilled to see his former carer, and then appalled to discover that he's befriended Harry Potter. Hannah: > I don't think that it's a case of poor-little- > Draco being looked after by the kindly elves. Even if the elves > make the packages themselves, it would be at the instruction of > Narcissa, so she must have some interest in her son.< Valky: Actually I kind of do think that there could be a poor little Draco, raised by Dobby, scenario, but there's nothing to base that on until we can find out more about Narcissa. So it's really speculative territory. > > >>Hannah: > >We only see Draco once in the whole of that holiday, for all of > about ten minutes. He might have been doing *anything.* And > Lucius > is a governor at the school - I don't think he needs Draco's input > to be able to find out if anything major happens. And for > everything else heir-related he has Snape - who should be reliable > from Lucius' POV on this matter.< > > Betsy: > I didn't think of Snape here (D'oh!). He *would* be a good > informer. Unless, maybe Lucius was making absolutely sure that no > one knew of his involvement? Valky: How about they left Draco at Hogwarts over Christmas because they wer *to busy* buttering up the bureaucratic elite and getting Lucius the support he needed to get Dumbledore out of Hogwarts? Too busy climbing the political and social ladder to spend christmas with their son, sounds about right to me. From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 00:20:54 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 00:20:54 -0000 Subject: Molly sees herself as blood traitor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125460 >Valky wrote: She was raised by purebloodists, and married into a pureblood family and not once did she consider that she would ever be outcast for her love of Arthur. ... she was thought she had pleased *everyone*. But not so, because she had become a traitor to pureblood. In OOtP when Sirius shows Harry the tapestry, and all the burnholes where names used to be, I admit having the presumption that the silly old bag hadn't *hurt* anyone by it. I was wrong. Mrs Black wasn't a harmless old biddy trying to make a foolish point, she really did break hearts in her family with her maliciousness, and Molly is our proof. After all, she was raised believing Pure Wizard blood *is* superior.... >SSSusan wrote: Valky, I'm curious where you are getting this info that Molly was raised with all this. Do we *know* the mentality of her parents or upon what message she was raised? Do we *know* she classes herself as a blood traitor? Or are you assuming she was raised this way because almost all pure-blooded families "surely" raise their children this way? It feels like a pretty big leap to me, but maybe I'm missing something. vmonte now: I agree with SSSusan. What proof do we have that all pure blood families raise their children to have this ideology of hate? What about Arthur? He is also a pureblood, is he not? Is he also a blood traitor? And Molly's brothers were part of the Order. So, that makes at least three from one family that did not have this ideology of hate. Were they all blood traitors? Vivian From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Mar 4 00:56:19 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 00:56:19 -0000 Subject: Molly sees herself as blood traitor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125462 > >Valky wrote: > She was raised by purebloodists, and married into a pureblood > family and not once did she consider that she would ever be > outcast for her love of Arthur. ... she was thought she had > pleased *everyone*. > > But not so, because she had become a traitor to pureblood. > In OOtP when Sirius shows Harry the tapestry, and all the > burnholes where names used to be, I admit having the presumption > that the silly old bag hadn't *hurt* anyone by it. I was wrong. > Mrs Black wasn't a harmless old biddy trying to make a > foolish point, she really did break hearts in her family with her > maliciousness, and Molly is our proof. > After all, she was raised believing Pure Wizard blood *is* > superior.... > > > vmonte now: > > I agree with SSSusan. What proof do we have that all pure blood > families raise their children to have this ideology of hate? Valky: I am supposing that there is actually a middle ground between the the out and out liberals, and the purebloodists where Molly stands. And that it is a result of loving people from both sides of the equation, which I think pertains to Molly because her elder female relatives were *probably* Mr's Black and her variously weird aunts and grandmothers (see message 125223), whom I am sure that Molly would love and give importance to in spite of their faults. Vmonte: > What > about Arthur? He is also a pureblood, is he not? Is he also a > blood traitor? > Valky: Yes, the Weasley's are the Blood traitors. But they are Pureblood, so Blood Traitor means something other than marrying muggleborn which is so far unspecified. Vmonte: > And Molly's brothers were part of the Order. So, that makes at > least three from one family that did not have this ideology of > hate. Were they all blood traitors? > Valky: Well maybe that's what blood traitor means. The DE's did go to some rather extreme lengths to kill the Prewett brothers. fascinating veiwpoint thankyou Vivian. OTOh to your question, The brothers are male relatives, that's an important distinction given Molly's obviously "girly" nature. (Read Molly going flaky for Lockheart and discussing Love potions with the teenage girls) Molly's female relatives would have some great importance to her, but who are they? Best guess is Mrs Black and her strangely sadistic counterparts. Valky From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 01:08:45 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 01:08:45 -0000 Subject: Molly and Arthur Was Re: Mother Molly /Nice people get a pass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125463 Alla: Thanks for clarification, but as Janet said - Molly is clearly not the best judge of celebrities. So, even if Rita lied in first two articles, she can still be right in this one, theoretically. I think I will agree with Lupinlore on this one - Molly does NOT treat Hermione as her child, but she certainly treats Harry like one. She thinks Hermione hurt Harry and she lashes out at her. Is it fair ? of course not, but to me it makes perfect sense if we view Molly's action as defending her child from "perceived threat". vmonte responds: Maybe Molly was actually upset for Ron. You don't think that Molly knows that Ron has a thing for Hermione? I mean, even Harry thinks that there is something going on between Ron and Hermione. Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 02:00:00 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 02:00:00 -0000 Subject: Opposite of Gryffindor? In-Reply-To: <20050227192907.92003.qmail@web31109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125464 Arynn Octavia wrote: I am extremely loyal, but not at all concerned with fair play. I'm no Hufflepuff I am brave in certain situations, but not consistantly. I'm no Gryffindor. I am intellegent and studious. I am a Ravenclaw. I am ambitious and perhaps a little Machiavellian. (Yes I can be manipulative.) I am a Slytherin. So where would I go? vmonte responds: At first glance you seem like you're a Slytherin, but the most important key to sorting I believe is where you think you should be. After all, isn't it our choices that make us who we are?" Also ask yourself these questions: What is important to you? Who are your role models? (This tells a lot about who you want to be.) I read somewhere that Daniel Radcliff took an on-line house sorting test and he was placed into Slytherin --- LOL! Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 02:13:02 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 02:13:02 -0000 Subject: Double standards... what about Umbridge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125465 Alla: I am afraid I don't understand your argument. Umbridge's detentions were disgusting, immoral, cruel... Pick your own word. :) I don't even remember anyone arguing that Umbridge was purely "exercising her authority" and therefore it was OK. It surely was not me. :o) Some posters argued that detentions were good BECAUSE they showed to Harry how dangerous Umbridge was, but that is not exactly defending her , isn't it? No matter which character will be doing such disgusting thing, male or female, I can assure you, I won't praise or even justify it. It is just NOT justifiable at all, IMO. I don't know whether I agree with you that it was bad plot device . I honestly don't know. I don't know what JKR had in mind introducing it. I mean I agree with Rebecca that we were supposed to feel sick while reading it, but besides that I am not sure whether it advanced plot much or not. I guess it accomplished one thing for me - it made me sympathise with Harry even more I already did. vmonte responds: I wonder if what Umbridge did to Harry had any lasting effects (aside from the psychological)? Do you think that there is going to be a key moment where Harry will need to lie, for example to save someone else, and on his hand a raised mark will appear stating that he is lying? So, even though let's say that Harry becomes a good occlumens, his hand will betray him. Vivian - Who thought that the most disturbing scene in the movie the Exorcist was when the priest saw the words: "help me" rise from the stomach of the possessed child. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 02:15:20 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 02:15:20 -0000 Subject: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: <20050303170049.14797.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125466 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > Personally I think they went over the line when they sent him the > dragon dung at the office. Pranking at home is one thing; going > outside the home to Percy's place of employment was quite another. > > Pranking and practical jokes are not a light-hearted thing; they're > funny tricks (to those not on the receiving end of them) designed to deflate someone or in some other way disconcert them. There really is nothing friendly in being pranked; notice that the twins don't prank their friends in the series. Showing off their pranking > products is different; people know in advance that somethings > supposed to happen. Tonks here: I agree that the Twin should not have done anything to Percy at work. When reading the books I don't think the Twins are so bad. But if they were real people I would not like them. Practical jokes are just cruel ways to hurt other people and try to get away with it by saying *it was just a joke*. Practical jokes IMO are attacks. They are not funny and are an act of aggression. Tonks_op From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 02:25:38 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 02:25:38 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: <42275B31.000001.00296@KATHRYN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125467 Kathryn: Hermione should concentrate on making sure the house elves have a choice about whether they follow the particular 'rules'of their culture or whether they choose to live outside of them like Dobby. Rather than trying to take that choice from them. Hermione is no more allowing the Elves free will than the rest of the wizarding world. Alla: Fair enough, but don't you think that in some very limited circumstances freedom of choice should not be the prevailing criteria for the action? For example, let's assume that ALL house-elves are tortured on a regular basis in every wizarding home. Now, there is no reason to think that they are treated particularly well ( Dobby is a good example), but according to Dobby situation is sort of improved since Voldemort's defeat. Suppose situation got much worse and house elves are subjected to horrible physical pain every day. Nevertheless for some reason they like it ( they got used to it,whatever). Do you think that if Hermione has means to free them, she should act on them, even if house elves don't want it now? I mean I am not 100% certain, but I tend to lean to POV that in such hypothetical Hermione should act first and educate house elves later, because no objective bystander will object to the fact that torture is NOT good for anybody. Now, that is not what happens in the books and I do think that Hermione will grew up and adjust her strategy, but I wonder. Kemper now: I need to clarify I don't think her liberal/progressive values are unethical. I think taking away another's choice is. But I don't think Hermione realizes that is what she's doing. When she does, I think she will take a different tactic for elf-rights. Perhaps meeting with Doby and having him approach House Elves who are `enslaved' in some abusive homes. It would be unfair to the House Elves to free them and then not guide them to a culture of freedom. There might be chaos. Hermione can't revolutionize a culture over night. Change is a process not an event. Alla: Oh, I agree completely with this statement of yours. hermione definitely needs to change the methods. I just have no doubt that her heart is in a right place. Kemper now: I'm not arguing Hermione's lack of tolerance; I'm arguing her lack of consideration towards a people who have a seemingly unchanged culture that has continued for centuries. I consider Hermione a liberal as you have well defined it. But again, she could use a mentor. Alla: Hm, to play a devil advocate a little bit on the subject of Hermione's tolerance which is unrelated to house elves. It was brought up somewhere in the old discussion maybe by Elkins or by someone else. "NO!" Hermione screamed. "Harry, don't trust him, he's been helping Black get into the castle, he wants you dead too - he's a werewolf!" - PoA, p.345, paperback. Now, this occurence was brought up to show Hermione's intolerance to werewolves. Do you agree? Personally I tend to think that the fact that Hermione was covering up Remus' secret all year shows her tolerance more truthfully that behaviour in the Shack,when everybody's emotions run high and everybody says things they may not mean at all. Although I have to admit that Hermione's remark about Firenze makes me wonder a little. Kemper Thanking Alla for the opportunity to expound on the thread. Alla: Happy to oblige. :o) Just my opinion, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 04:09:33 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 04:09:33 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125468 Alla wrote earlier: Now, it is a fact that Dumbledore suspected Tom Riddle back in the days, right? Does it mean that he knew for sure that Riddle/Voldie is back in Hogwarts? If said conclusion is true, does it mean that Harry's struggle in CoS was also just a test or at least half-test ( I am of the firm opinion that Philosopher stone was a test and the only thing which Dumbledore has not anticipated was him leaving school)? Did Dumbledore know for sure what was going to happen and the only thing he did not anticipate was Lucius making Board to suspend him? KathyK: To rephrase Dumbledore, it's the question of 'how' LV was doing it that was important. To me this says quite clearly that he believed from the start LV to be responsible for opening the Chamber. I don't believe Dumbledore *knew* Riddle/LV returned to Hogwarts. I think he had a lot of trouble figuring out this mystery. As he says after hearing what happened in the Chamber of Secrets: > > ***** > "What interests *me* most," said Dumbledore gently, " is how Lord > Voldemort managed to enchant Ginny, when my sources tell me he is > currently in hiding in the forests of Albania." > > --CoS, Ch 18, Dobby's Reward, US ed p 328 > ***** Obviously at this point Dumbledore had most of, and was about the get all the answers he's been seeking since the Chamber opened. I don't believe he had any idea about the particulars until he heard them from Harry. In other words, I don't think it was meant to be a test (in the way PS/SS seemed to be a test). Alla: I am a little bit bothered by "Albania" quote though. In the one I cited he seems to be quite sure that the question is not "who", but "how". To me it seems to imply that Dumbledore knows exactly WHO opened the Chamber. Have you read that quote differently? In this one Dumbledore seems to think that Voldemort is in Albania. So, does he know that Voldemort in Hogwarts or does he not? I mean I am wondering just how MUCH Dumbledore knows. There is no question in my mind that he knows something, but how much? KathyK: He had reason to believe LV was in Albania. Yet he knew Tom Riddle had previously opened the Chamber and seemed to have no doubt that he was doing so presently. What were the possible explanations? Let's see...His sources were mistaken, LV knew how to be in two places at once, someone else had managed to find their way into the Chamber either on their own or with LV's assistance, or the, IMO, unlikely scenario where Dumbledore knew exactly what was going on. Alla: I don't know, to me the explanation that Dumbledore knew that Riddle is back in Hogwarts seems likely enough, because Dumbledore does not question "who". I am willing to believe that Dumbledore did not know about the Diary, since he seems suprised after Harry's story. I think I will settle on the idea that Dumbledore knew that Riddle's memory or host or something somehow made it to Hogwarts, but had no idea what it was, unless somebody will unconvince me. :o) I am also not sure about whole ordeal being a test. Again, half test seems likely to me for now. Remember how persistent Dumbledore was when he was telling Harry and Ron that help will always be given in Hogwarts to those who ask for it. I'd say he waged on Fawkes and Sorting Hat to help Harry. Now, Riddle is not the most reliable canon character, nevertheless he does say that Dumbledore sent them. I don't know... Just my opinion, Alla From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Mar 4 04:21:29 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 04:21:29 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125469 > Alla wrote: > > > Now, it is a fact that Dumbledore suspected Tom Riddle back in > the days, right? Does it mean that he knew for sure that > Riddle/Voldie is back in Hogwarts? > > > > If said conclusion is true, does it mean that Harry's struggle > > in CoS was also just a test or at least half-test > > > Hannah: I think Dumbledore always knew, or strongly suspected it > was Riddle the first time. ...edit When the attacks began again, > DD knew it must be LV behind it, ...edit.. But he doesn't know how > LV is achieving it, as he says to McGonagall. I always find it a > bit hard to believe that DD couldn't > have worked out a bit more than he did, given his supposed > omniscience. That's never sat easily with me. If he was doing it > to test Harry, it was a massive risk. It was only luck that none > of the students attacked actually looked the basilisk in the eye. Valky: I have a theory about that, which was a discussion point not so long ago here. First, I agree that DD was trying to find out how Riddle was in Hogwarts this second time, and I also found it didn't sit well with me that he didn't *find out* sooner, I was a regular user of The Magic Dishwasher (See Fantasic Posts). With such an annoying itch, one must scratch so I came up with some thoughts when discussing Time-turning and that led me to a new point of veiw regarding what Omniescent Dumbledore would have been doing during COS. I now approach the question from this angle. It *wasn't* luck that nobody died! A closer look shows that only two of the cases were not explained by things that weren't purely chance. Moaning Myrtle saved Mrs Norris because the Basilisk and Ginny!Tom disturbed her, the result was not unusual: Myrtles had a tantrum, Ginny is crying and fighting Tom, Mrs Norris comes to investigate, looks at the water, sees the Basilisk - case solved. In the case of Hermione and Penelope, Hermione had figured it out already so that case is closed quickly too. Justin and Colin were the ONLY ones who were petrified after DD had figured out what was going on and was trying to solve the case and before DD was made to leave Hogwarts. Now lets put ourselves in DD shoes. One relatively omniescent personage in a *very* big house with a *lot* of young muggleborns in his care, two important objectives to achieve. 1. Find out how Riddle is doing it. 2. Make sure noone gets killed. Which priority is highest? So solving the case is secondary priority to saving kids. Which means he has to spend a lot more time watching the muggleborns closely, this doesn't include Ginny Weasley, so she's able to slip under his nose for a while and carry on as Toms puppet without DD being suspicious. A big clue to DD having been a protective prescence is Colin's petrification. He was saved by his camera. In the Entrance Hall. After the Quidditch match. An assumption Colin was actually taking photographs at this time doesn't add up. Colin undoubtedly already has plenty of pictures of the Entrance Hall, and besides he just went to Quidditch, surely he used all his film on that. Then we have Dumbledore coming down the stairs for a refill of hot chocolate at the same moment. Well maybe. But then maybe he had some of his silver instruments aligned to detect lone muggleborns roaming the castle and was rushing downstairs after hearing the alarm bells. hmmm that makes more sense. Did Dumbledore conjure up some really cool magical illusion ahead of him to make Colin put his camera to his face? I think *at least* so. The staff all seemed to know that it was DD that was preventing the muggleborns from being killed, I take that very much for granted to be authoritative. So my theory, Dumbledore wasn't testing Harry. Harry just managed to make himself very helpful. Dumbledore *was* trying to handle the incedent himself, although he intuitively knew that Harry was on the case and did all he could to leave behind some help for Harry. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 04:24:01 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 04:24:01 -0000 Subject: Dating Muggleborns(was: Where does it say that Molly is a pureblood fanatic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125470 >>Naama: >And if you want to make counter arguments, could you please base them on textual evidence? I am getting tired of reiterated opinions that are unsupported by cannon.< Betsy: Yes M'am! Unfortunately, the difficulty is that there really isn't any specific canon where Molly says, "I just don't trust those Muggleborns!" But I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb to suggest that Molly isn't as liberal as her husband when it comes to Muggles (which I think most folks agree with) and even Muggleborns (which is a harder sell, I know). I think that once someone starts to show contempt for Muggles, it lends itself towards a certain uneasiness regarding Muggleborns. You've said: >>Naama: >The thing that JKR portrays as problematic is the attitude to Muggleborns. It may seem psychologically sound that if you look down on Muggles (as the entire WW does), you would look down on Muggleborns too. However, that is not the case in the Potterverse.< Betsy: I've countered that those who show a high regard for pure-bloods (i.e. Fudge, and many in the WW) must therefore hold Muggleborns, with their entirely non-pure-blood, as something somewhat less. I know you think it's applying RL logic to a fictional world, but I haven't seen any canon that demonstrates that the WW *doesn't* place some importance on a person's bloodlines. And it is canon that *everyone* knows who the Muggleborns are. Everyone knows that Lily Potter was a Muggleborn, everyone knows that Hermione is a Muggleborn. In fact, bloodlines are so important Rita Skeeter leads with Hermione's blood status in the heart-break story that turns Molly against Hermione. (GoF Scholastic Hardback p. 512) >>Betsy: >Fudge is a good barometer for prevailing Wizarding views, and he distrusts Muggleborns. He doesn't hate them, he doesn't think they should be destroyed (I don't think he's been portrayed as out and out evil, either) but he doesn't trust them.< >>Naama: >Evidence? He is a snob in his regard for pure bloods, but I can't remember him expressing distrust of Muggleborns.< Betsy: Erm. Okay, I thought Fudge said something about Muggleborns at the end of GoF, and it turns out he was specifically attacking Harry. So, yeah, I don't know if Fudge trusts Muggleborns or not. So point there. :) However, I *still* think the most logical reason Molly suddenly turns on Hermione (on the word of a woman she *knows* is a liar) is that Hermione is a Muggleborn. I *haven't* seen any evidence that the WW's distrust of Muggles does *not* transfer to Muggleborns. It certainly transfers to a higher status to those most removed from Muggles, the pure-bloods. You've suggested that Molly may have turned on Hermione because she doesn't like her hair, or her studiousness, or her lack of quidditch skills. I took those as tongue-in-cheek, because there's even less canonical evidence for those arguments, IMO. I *do* recognize that there isn't clear-cut evidence that Molly has an instinctual distrust of Muggleborns, but I think that there *are* some hints within the texts. I feel like I've pointed those hints out (see message 125308). Of course, you can certainly disagree. :) Betsy, who snipped and scrambled Naama's posts, but hopefully didn't mess up her points. From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 07:40:44 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 07:40:44 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal: was re: Moody -- "Types"--Where Are the Bleeding Hearts? In-Reply-To: <20050303183846.52711.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125471 Magda: > I don't find Hermione's championing of SPEW or her militaristic > knitting habit to be the big problem; for me, her biggest mistake is > that she infantilizes individual elves: nothing is ever their fault, > they have no power over their own actions or activities, they are > simply passive recipients of others' abuse. > > She underestimates the degree of autonomy that they might have in a > particular situation: as the lone House Elf in the Crouch household, > Winky was able to successfully negotiate with Crouch Sr. on Crouch > Jr.'s behalf. Also she didn't really appreciate the extent to which > Kreacher's devotion to his late master's beliefs would lead him to > actively try to harm Sirius and the Order. Finwitch: Yes, well - I compared Hermione to Harry. The way *Harry* sees house- elves... Someone posted about the "freaks" of a circus until someone decided for them it wasn't right... History has too many examples of cultures destroyed when an outsider came and told (and forced the concept by war) people how the way they ate termites and such (for proteine) wasn't quite right... ending up so that the people in the area now need financial assistance to survive... But the thing about underestimating elf-ability to make choices -- this is a fault Dumbledore shares. You make a valid point - especially kind, ignore the faults etc. just because he's a house-elf? I agree that giving a special benefit to someone different out of fear of being seen as a racist is just as much (though perhaps a better one) a fault than rejection for that same difference. Harry&Sirius - they see individuality and ability to make choices within the elves. Sirius was kind to elves in general - just not Kreacher. I'd say they *both* consider the elves as equal to wizards in that regard. Kreacher may be unable to disobey a direct order (not much different for lower-ranking members of an army, is it?) but I'd say that his lying to Harry (unless someone TOLD him to, which I doubt) *is* Kreacher's fault. Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 08:25:49 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 08:25:49 -0000 Subject: Double standards... what about Umbridge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125472 Vivian: > > I wonder if what Umbridge did to Harry had any lasting effects (aside > from the psychological)? Do you think that there is going to be a key > moment where Harry will need to lie, for example to save someone > else, and on his hand a raised mark will appear stating that he is > lying? So, even though let's say that Harry becomes a good occlumens, > his hand will betray him. Finwitch: Don't know about that... Why would Umbridge wish to drug Harry with Veritaserum if Harry's hand would betray his lies anyway? Or was it a test to *Snape*? And didn't Harry LIE there as it was? Anyway, I imagine a scene where Harry, in the 4 Privet Drive, wonders how a Muggle could intimidate him so much when even Voldemort can't. Or seeing Dudley bully Mark Evans. He might think of the magic first (which he uses when fighting a DE or Voldemort) since he's not allowed to use it - but seeing that scar on his hand - he recalls that he did not need *magic* to defy Umbridge. Not even support of friends. And then he'd realise that what kept him so low and intimidated by Dursleys has more to do with the way they made him live in a lie - how he had let them lie to the neighbourhood... how he'd freed himself by defending the truth about his parents with Aunt Marge... You know, the Ministry may well be able to detect using magic in Muggle Area *but* I doubt that *telling* about the magic would be. OR showing the moving pictures in an album and spellbooks, the functions of Marauder's Map, or wearing invisibility cloak... Or growing a nearly bald hair back up over one night... I'd like to see how long Dumbledore would keep Harry at the Dursleys if oure dear Harry took to tell the Muggle neighbours all about wizards openly and loudly, using BOOKS(that Monster Book of Monsters, like - or the moving pictures in them), PHOTOs (that move) and possibly that amazing hair-growth as evidence... to warn them about Voldemort... getting back at the Ministry who didn't bother giving poor Sirius a trial... doing what he believes is right (well, Harry DID ask why wizards were so secret... maybe he figures now that the time of secrets is over; after all, he got lured into a trap because Dumbledore was keeping the existence of a prophecy secret from him...) and while Harry's not much of a talker, that Quill *may* have had the effect that he will stand up and speak the truth - the truth about where he REALLY goes to school; the truth of what the Dursleys are like; the truth of Magic. Truth can be a very powerful weapon - and in OOP Harry used it on Umbridge effectively. Finwitch From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 12:43:01 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:43:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's a liberal: was re: Moody -- "Types"--Where Are the Bleeding Hearts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050304124302.54754.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125473 --- finwitch wrote: > But the thing about underestimating elf-ability to make choices -- > this is a fault Dumbledore shares. You make a valid point - > especially kind, ignore the faults etc. just because he's a > house-elf? Dumbledore did not instruct Sirius to treat Kreacher with kindness because he underestimated the house elf. As he says in Chapter 37: "I warned Sirius when we adopted 12GP as our HQ that Kreacher must be treated with kindness and respect. I also told him that Kreacher could be dangerous to us." Those are not the words of a man who shares Hermione's unrealistic view of house elves. It's because Dumbledore knows that Kreacher does have some wiggle-room within the confines of his bond with the house that he wants him treated carefully. > Finwitch: > Harry&Sirius - they see individuality and ability to make choices > within the elves. Sirius was kind to elves in general - just not > Kreacher. I'd say they *both* consider the elves as equal to > wizards in that regard. Kreacher may be unable to disobey a direct > order (not much different for lower-ranking members of an army, > is it?) but I'd say that his lying to Harry (unless someone TOLD > him to, which I doubt) *is* Kreacher's fault. When did Sirius view house elves as having "individuality and ability to make choices"? He was surprised and disconcerted at Christmas time when Kreacher disappeared (to the Malfoys, as we find out later) and Harry corrected him that house elves can leave the premises if they're determined to and cited Dobby as an example. Sirius who was raised with house elves around knew less about what they were capable of than Harry with his muggle-bound childhood and his limited contact with Dobby. As for being kind to abstract, not-in-his-immediate-vicinity house elves, he probably was. But these house elves were not a danger to him and to the Order while the single one that was both present and vital to Order secrecy was treated poorly. Sirius could have done better. Nothing would have converted or changed Kreacher's attitude but deliberately antagonizing the elf by throwing away heirlooms and ignoring hints like the shrine to Bellatrix in his hidey-hole meant that everyone was unprepared when Kreacher did strike. No one ever expects a slave rebellion. Magda __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 4 12:59:13 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:59:13 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy (was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125474 > > >>Betsy wrote: > > >The sweets from home could be from Narcissa (out of love, out of appearances?), they could be from a house-elf. We don't know.< > > > > >>Hannah replied: > > >I doubt the packages are from a house elf. Dobby was the > > Malfoy's house-elf and at no point has he ever shown any interest > > in or affection for Draco. > > Valky replied: > I had been thinking about this very thing not long ago. Does anyone recall if Dobby and Draco *have* bumped into each other in Hogwarts? > Because I was wondering if Dobby did have a parental role in Draco's younger days, perhaps there is an affection between them that we have yet to see. > > Imagine Dobby talking to Harry in a corridor one day and Draco > chancing upon them. What would happen, would Draco be quietly > thrilled to see his former carer, and then appalled to discover that he's befriended Harry Potter. Hannah now: We've never seen Draco and Dobby meet or interact. But I don't think Dobby has any love for Draco, and that's one of the arguments I use against a secretly-nice!Draco. Dobby refers to his family as 'bad dark wizards.' As far as we know, he's shown no interest in Draco at Hogwarts, nor has he ever asked after him to Harry. Of course, that *is* only as far as we know from canon, but I just think if Dobby liked Draco, then he would have said as much at some point. When Harry treats Dobby politely and kindly, the elf is shocked and has clearly never been treated so well before. I would say that goes against the idea that Draco and Dobby got along. Also, would Dobby long to be set free from the Malfoys if he knew it meant abandoning the child he had brought up and who needed him? And how would Dobby feel about Draco's very obvious dislike of Harry, Dobby's hero? > Hannah originally: > > I don't think that it's a case of poor-little- > > Draco being looked after by the kindly elves. Even if the elves > > make the packages themselves, it would be at the instruction of > > Narcissa, so she must have some interest in her son.< > > Valky wrote: > Actually I kind of do think that there could be a poor little Draco, raised by Dobby, scenario, but there's nothing to base that on until we can find out more about Narcissa. So it's really speculative territory. Hannah now: But if Dobby had raised Draco, how could Draco have turned out as he has? Maybe Dobby did the dirty jobs, I can certainly believe that, but I can't imagine the Malfoys wanting their only son and heir endoctrinated with the beleifs (and grammar!) of a house elf. I think someone raised by a house elf would behave differently to Draco. Of course, as you say, it is very speculative. All Draco debate is, because we see so little, and such a one-sided view. > Valky wrote: > How about they left Draco at Hogwarts over Christmas because they > wer *to busy* buttering up the bureaucratic elite and getting Lucius the support he needed to get Dumbledore out of Hogwarts? > Too busy climbing the political and social ladder to spend christmas with their son, sounds about right to me. Hannah: Possibly. But Draco went home the following year, when his father was presumably just as busy, given that he seems to have fingers in every wizarding pie by early GoF. I'm not trying to say the Malfoys are parents of the year here, by any means. But I just don't buy the theories that Draco is treated that badly. I think he stayed at Hogwarts because he wanted to, in order to try and find out more about the 'heir of Slytherin.' Probably if Draco had gone home, he'd have spent a significant amount of time on his own, while his parents went off to parties without him, but I don't think that they actually forced him to stay in school. Hannah From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Fri Mar 4 13:38:12 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:38:12 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy (was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125475 > > Valky wrote: > > Actually I kind of do think that there could be a poor little > > Draco, raised by Dobby, scenario, but there's nothing to base > > that on until we can find out more about Narcissa. So it's > > really speculative territory. > > Hannah replied: > But if Dobby had raised Draco, how could Draco have > turned out as he has? Maybe Dobby did the dirty jobs, I can > certainly believe that, but I can't imagine the Malfoys wanting > their only son and heir endoctrinated with the beleifs (and > grammar!) of a house elf. I think someone raised by a house elf > would behave differently to Draco. Of course, as you say, it is > very speculative. All Draco debate is, because we see so little, > and such a one-sided view. > Do you really think so? Do you think Dobby would have had the power to discipline Draco? Do you think Dobby would have had the power to say "No sweets now, it's nearly dinner time"? If Draco had demanded toys and sweets and chocolate, Dobby would have had to obey him, and if he did not obey, Draco would have made Dobby punish himself. Sounds like the sort of set-up that created Dudley, to me. Dungrollin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 4 13:46:14 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:46:14 -0000 Subject: Hermione re: Lupin's lycanthropy (was: Hermione's a liberal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125476 Alla: > "NO!" Hermione screamed. "Harry, don't trust him, he's been helping > Black get into the castle, he wants you dead too - he's a > werewolf!" - PoA, p.345, paperback. > > Now, this occurence was brought up to show Hermione's intolerance > to werewolves. Do you agree? Personally I tend to think that the > fact that Hermione was covering up Remus' secret all year shows her > tolerance more truthfully that behaviour in the Shack,when > everybody's emotions run high and everybody says things they may > not mean at all. SSSusan: My first thought was that, yes, you're right -- she did keep his secret all year, which shows "more truthfully" (as you so nicely put it) that his status as werewolf didn't make her suspicious or bother her. And perhaps this was helped along by the knowledge that Lupin was assisting Harry in learning the Patronus charm [she knew that, right??]. OTOH, it is possible that Hermione *was* suspicious to some degree ever since she figured it out and, as soon as she suspected Lupin of betraying Harry by helping Sirius, she was ready to latch right onto that "He's a werewolf" thing as the *cause* of it. I mean, instead of just saying, "I trusted you, and now I find you've been lying, helping a mass murderer to get to Harry!" she phrases it as, "Don't trust him... he's a werewolf!" So which is it with this remark of her? Emotions running high, and Hermione's just horrified at her own seemingly wrong judgment of Lupin's character as good? Or is it to show an underlying prejudice (as we know exists in Ron), even in Hermione? Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Mar 4 13:17:36 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:17:36 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125477 > Alla: > I think I will settle on the idea that Dumbledore knew that Riddle's memory or host or something somehow made it to Hogwarts, but had no idea what it was, unless somebody will unconvince me. :o) > snip > Now, Riddle is not the most reliable canon character, nevertheless > he does say that Dumbledore sent them. I don't know... ?? Potioncat: It??s like Harry and the map. Harry sees Barty Crouch on the map in Snape??s office. The map doesn??t lie, but Harry knows Mr. Crouch is a sick man, and wouldn??t be able to sneak into Hogwarts... It doesn??t make sense. Later, he??ll find out it??s a different Barty Crouch. DD is certain LV!Riddle opened the chamber this time, but knows LV is in Albania. It doesn??t make sense. He must be wondering about his sources, about LV's abilities... It isn??t until later that he finds out about Diary!Riddle. Tom Riddle seems to think DD sent the Hat, but that??s a boy??s best guess. I think the hat came on a different magic. It may be one that DD put in place, knowing that Harry might need magical help. But I don??t see that DD planed any of this as a test. Potioncat From adesahafford at wmconnect.com Thu Mar 3 18:24:56 2005 From: adesahafford at wmconnect.com (Adesa) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:24:56 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks and Mundungus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125478 So I'm re-reading OotP again, and I was wondering... Crookshanks is described throughout the books (repeatedly, I believe) as "bandy-legged" with long, messy ginger hair. I know that JKR has said he's part kneazle, but I read this passage today: "There was a loud crack and a strong smell of mingled drink and stale tobacco filled the air as a squat, unshaven man in a tattered overcoat materialized right in front of them. He had short bandy legs, long straggly ginger hair, and bloodshot baggy eyes that gave him the doleful look of a basset hound; he was also clutching a silvery bundle that Harry recognized at once as an Invisibility Cloak." (OotP, US vers., Chap. 2, pg. 22) Now I'm sure this has probably been discussed here before, so forgive me for misssing it in the archives. But JKR has always been *very* careful about her word choice. The similarities of Crookshanks' and Dung's descriptions can't be coincidental, can they? What does this mean? Adesa, who's always surprised about what new details she picks up with each re-reading. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 4 13:57:46 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:57:46 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125479 > Valky: > First, I agree that DD was trying to find out how Riddle was in > Hogwarts this second time, and I also found it didn't sit well with > me that he didn't *find out* sooner, I was a regular user of The > Magic Dishwasher (See Fantasic Posts). > > With such an annoying itch, one must scratch so I came up with some thoughts when discussing Time-turning and that led me to a new point of veiw regarding what Omniescent Dumbledore would have been doing during COS. I now approach the question from this angle. It *wasn't* luck that nobody died! > > Now lets put ourselves in DD shoes. One relatively omniescent > personage in a *very* big house with a *lot* of young muggleborns in > his care, two important objectives to achieve. > 1. Find out how Riddle is doing it. > 2. Make sure noone gets killed. > Which priority is highest? > > So solving the case is secondary priority to saving kids. Which > means he has to spend a lot more time watching the muggleborns > closely, this doesn't include Ginny Weasley, so she's able to slip > under his nose for a while and carry on as Toms puppet without DD > being suspicious. > > A big clue to DD having been a protective prescence is Colin's > petrification. He was saved by his camera. In the Entrance Hall. > After the Quidditch match. > > An assumption Colin was actually taking photographs at this time > doesn't add up. Colin undoubtedly already has plenty of pictures of the Entrance Hall, and besides he just went to Quidditch, surely he used all his film on that. > > Then we have Dumbledore coming down the stairs for a refill of hot > chocolate at the same moment. Well maybe. But then maybe he had some of his silver instruments aligned to detect lone muggleborns roaming the castle and was rushing downstairs after hearing the alarm bells. > hmmm that makes more sense. Did Dumbledore conjure up some really > cool magical illusion ahead of him to make Colin put his camera to > his face? I think *at least* so. > > The staff all seemed to know that it was DD that was preventing the muggleborns from being killed, I take that very much for granted to be authoritative. > > So my theory, Dumbledore wasn't testing Harry. Harry just managed to make himself very helpful. Dumbledore *was* trying to handle the > incedent himself, although he intuitively knew that Harry was on the case and did all he could to leave behind some help for Harry. Hannah: I really like this theory, Valky. I hope it's true! The bit with Colin particularly works well for me. It does seem a huge coincidence otherwise. Also I like the idea of DD having a machine that alerts him when a Muggle-born/ half-blood student is wandering round alone and in danger. Perhaps NH Nick (and the other ghosts) were helping DD, by patrolling round, maybe getting to the students quickly when there was an alert? We've seen them help out at other times, for instance when they patrolled areas and kept watch for Sirius Black. Having the ghosts to help would be essential during the day (like when Justin was attacked) as there would be likely to be several at-risk students wandering round in different places at a time. This seems to fit in well with DD's omniscience, without making him sound like a bad guy. And while I might lean towards the puppetmaster!DD theory, I can't believe that he's actually ESE. I think maybe an element of testing Harry came in right at the end, when he hints about help being available to those who need it, while looking right at Harry and Ron. But he couldn't have known that Harry and Ron would actually end up in a situation where they needed that help. In fact, he may have guessed that Harry would become a target, so he was doing his best to arm him in case the need arose. Great theory, anyway :-) Hannah From dorothywillis at charter.net Thu Mar 3 17:51:38 2005 From: dorothywillis at charter.net (dorothy willis) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:51:38 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Riddle's Bones References: Message-ID: <000b01c52019$a7eb8af0$6501a8c0@Magister> No: HPFGUIDX 125480 In GoF book we only saw some of Riddle's Bone dust, but I always felt it would have been more powerful if a ghastly white grinning skull with patches of dried blackened skin still clinging to it came out of the grave and plopped into the caldron with a sickening slash. I suppose Rowling felt that would have been a little too powerful. Eggplant I am inclined to think it would be too cartoonish. But of course it is a matter of taste. Dorothy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tayla_gangrel at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 03:40:28 2005 From: tayla_gangrel at yahoo.com (Tayla) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:40:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050304034028.27176.qmail@web61209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125481 Joe in SoFla: [snipperdoodle] > And, honestly, I don't really blame him for leaving. Beyond the whole, "you got your job so they could use you to spy on me," argument, the twins were horrible to him. And I don't recall either parent doing anything to protect Percy from them. I don't think--and I may be a crowd of one on this--that the twins were particularly HORRIBLE to Percy. Yes, they teased him and yes, they made fun of him, but I don't know that what they did to him rose to the standard of an "attack." However, I am curious as to how the denizens of this august body would classify the various characters' types. Tayla: I think that we can all agree that F&G are immature, even for their age, and that they don't see their jokes in the same light as many of their peers, but I have to agree with Joe on this, I don't think that their "attacks" were just that. We do know that F&G took particular offence to the way that Percy was treating them all after getting his job at the MOM, so could it just be that they decided that by pranking him at the very place that he prides himself in would be fitting considering Percy seemed to be attacking his own family? Percy is exhibiting far too many symptoms that we have seen in our own history for me to be comfortable with him around. I cannot remember the exact name they used for it, but we did see some very "Percyish" behavior in Nazi Germany with their own young. Is it disturbing, absolutely. But then again, and I am sorry, but Percy is disturbing. Tayla (who still says that Percy is a status climbing drape ape) From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 4 14:08:58 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:08:58 -0000 Subject: Draco and Daddy and Dobby(was: Why did Draco do it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125482 > > Hannah originally: I think someone raised by a house elf > > would behave differently to Draco. Of course, as you say, it is > > very speculative. All Draco debate is, because we see so little, and such a one-sided view. > Dungrollin replied: > Do you really think so? Do you think Dobby would have had the power to discipline Draco? Do you think Dobby would have had the power to say "No sweets now, it's nearly dinner time"? If Draco had demanded toys and sweets and chocolate, Dobby would have had to obey him, and > if he did not obey, Draco would have made Dobby punish himself. > Sounds like the sort of set-up that created Dudley, to me. Hannah now: Yes, that's a good point. OK, so suppose we had that set up - Dobby cares for Draco day to day, Draco gets whatever he wants because Dobby has no choice. That isn't likely to engender any affection between the two. And I still think that families like the Malfoys would be taking a risk by giving a creature like Dobby too much influence in the child rearing process. If Draco was that dependent on Dobby, and that isolated from his parents, I think it's likely that he would end up taking on at least some of Dobbys views and mannerisms. Dobby may well have had some part in helping to rear Draco, but it would be a minor role, rather than a sort of surrogate parenthood. Hannah From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Mar 4 11:14:28 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:14:28 -0000 Subject: Dept of Mysteries Prophecies - Row 97=1997 potterplots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > Geoff: > I tend to agree with Steve that the row number has little or no > significance. > But - and it's a significant but - from the Wizarding World's point > of view, the confrontation could have taken place any time after 31st > July 1980. We know that Voldemort tried to achieve that outcome very > quickly and failed disastrously. At intervals, he has re-emerged in > one form or another to try to deal with his nemesis - and so far > still proving to be unsuccessful. So I believe that row 97 might be > another of JKR's red fish or possibly she just dropped on 97 as being > a nice sounding number to use. > Time will tell. > > Tinglinger/Samnanya: > I wonder then why JKR even bothered with the whole deathday chapter in > COS and Nick's birthday cake. 1492 would be a lame date to use if not > for the link to 1992 when COS takes place. This is a possilbe link to > the row 97 discussed upthread. I just wonder why the details were even > given. Too many herrings can smell up a book. If I have learned > anything from this series, precious little written in the series has > proven to be irrelevant. I am certain even GRAWP will be useful > eventually..... That said, Geoff: I'm still inclined to my view that 97 has no connection to the year. My view about the Deathday party is that, being the 500th anniversary, it obviously establishes the year as 1992. >From that, we can confirm that Harry, now in the Second Year, entered Hogwarts in 1991 and was born in 1980. Although I think that Jo Rowling had revealed this in interviews etc., I think this is the first place in canon that Harry's year of birth is confirmed and, thus, dates relating to Hogwarts events. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 4 14:44:45 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:44:45 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125484 Alla said: >>>I am a little bit bothered by "Albania" quote though. In the one I cited [DD] seems to be quite sure that the question is not "who", but "how". To me it seems to imply that Dumbledore knows exactly WHO opened the Chamber. Dumbledore seems to think that Voldemort is in Albania. So, does he know that Voldemort in Hogwarts or does he not? I don't know, to me the explanation that Dumbledore knew that Riddle is back in Hogwarts seems likely enough, because Dumbledore does not question "who".<<< SSSusan: DD knows, because of the year before, that Voldy is at some degree of ComingBackNess, but after Voldy fled at the end of the year, DD may well not know anything about the state Voldy is in, his strength or any other particulars. Because he's aware of what Voldy was able to accomplish the previous year, I think what DD knows or suspects is that it's Voldemort who's somehow behind the current attacks. But I think he is genuinely perplexed about the HOW. That is, I *don't* think DD has a clue that it's *Tom Riddle,* rather than Voldemort, who's behind the attacks. DD recognizes that the same thing is happening which happened when Tom was at Hogwarts, but I don't think he would have any reason to suspect a reincarnation of Tom, as opposed to a return of the current incarnation of Voldy. Valky said: >>> First, I agree that DD was trying to find out how Riddle was in Hogwarts this second time, and I also found it didn't sit well with me that he didn't *find out* sooner, I was a regular user of The Magic Dishwasher (See Fantasic Posts).<<< SSSusan: This is one of the reasons [along with his not knowing about the animagi & Marauders Map, if one believes that] that I don't think DD is as omniscient as many people seem to think he is. As I said above, I do think DD was truly perplexed by this. How common *is* leaving a memory of oneself in a diary, after all, I wonder?? Valky: >>>Now lets put ourselves in DD shoes. One relatively omniescent personage in a *very* big house with a *lot* of young muggleborns in his care, two important objectives to achieve. 1. Find out how Riddle is doing it. 2. Make sure noone gets killed. Which priority is highest? Then we have Dumbledore coming down the stairs for a refill of hot chocolate at the same moment. Well maybe. But then maybe he had some of his silver instruments aligned to detect lone muggleborns roaming the castle and was rushing downstairs after hearing the alarm bells. So my theory, Dumbledore wasn't testing Harry. Harry just managed to make himself very helpful. Dumbledore *was* trying to handle the incedent himself, although he intuitively knew that Harry was on the case and did all he could to leave behind some help for Harry.<<< SSSusan: Putting a strong emphasis on the "relatively" part of "relatively omniscient," I'd say I think you may be right, Valky. DD may well have been taking steps to watch over muggleborns, even if they were imperfect steps. I'm one of those who's argued that DD *did* set up the SS/PS challenges as an obstacle course of sorts, as a test for Harry. In CoS, though, I don't think there was anything of this sort going on. I believe DD was genuinely perplexed about how Voldy [not believing it could be Tom Riddle] had reopened the Chamber. Siriusly Snapey Susan From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 4 15:48:17 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:48:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's a liberal Message-ID: <20050304154817.58913.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125485 Kathryn wrote: Hermione should concentrate on making sure the house elves have a choice about whether they follow the particular 'rules' of their culture or whether they choose to live outside of them like Dobby. Rather than trying to take that choice from them. Hermione is no more allowing the Elves free will than the rest of the wizarding world. Whether all cultures deserve respect or not is another matter for a more lengthy discussion I fear but I wonder what gives someone the right to decide which cultures are worthy of respect and which are not. Me: I keep going back to the civil war and more specifically the book Gone With the Wind. The forced end of slavery was seen mainly as an evil by the black slaves of the southern families. Granted this is a novel by a while southern lady BUT it has a basis in truth. The truth is, many black people were "freed" to starve on the street and get put in jail for loitering. Some black people took pride in their white families and were torn to have to leave them. Does that mean overall emancipation was wrong and unjust for the slaves? I don't think so. There was much horror in that culture. Also, the slaves had a hierarchy among themselves. House slaves didn't mix with field hands etc. The "lower-class" slaves were probably treated worse than the house slaves and probably were more apt to favor freedom. The house-elves of Hogwarts have it good. They don't want anything to jeopardize how good they have it in case their resulting condition becomes worse or akin to other house-elves. The books have shown us that Dumbledore, although greatly respected, is much more worldly and just than anyone else in the wizarding world. The two examples of house-elves living in private homes has shown pretty poor conditions. We shouldn't assume the Hogwarts elves are prime examples for the rest. I agree with KEMPER who said "Hermione is placing her value system onto a different species and a different culture that is not ready to hear what an outsider has to say about their lifestyle." Change must come from within. Our governments make this mistake all the time--at least America and Britain does--in going to "help" other countries and our means makes their means worse. Of course, the true motives of our gov'ts may be debated. In some places in the world little girls have their private areas mutilated as part of a coming of age ceremony. Their mothers and grandmothers perform the rite. Is this okay? Should be look at this practice as valid and good because they don't want to change--or some don't want to change? Hermione CARES about the house-elves because they are at the mercy of their owners. I agree with Kemper in that Hermione's cause may be more successfully if Dobby acted as ambassador and went out into the community and visited homes where house-elves may live in conditions akin the ones he lived in while at the Malfoys. Theotokos who is at work but that is my quick two-cents--its been soooo long since I've contributed. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 16:27:03 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:27:03 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20050303204742.00be6f00@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125486 Troels Forchhammer wrote: > With whom would we invest the right > to doom certain cultures to disrespect? > Certainly not me -- I know that. Troels you do yourself a disservice, I've never met you but I've conversed with you for years and think I know you better than that. I have a very strong hunch you do NOT respect the Stalinist culture of the old USSR or the NAZI culture of Germany. I would add to that hall of shame the modern Islamic culture which seems determined to bring the world back to the eleventh century. > Realising that most of the population of > this world would rather treat my own > culture with disdain, I can't help asking > who should be allowed to make the judgement? The individual must make the judgment of who to respect and who to hold in contempt, I can't see any alternative; I can't see how you could force somebody NOT to have an opinion unless you had control of the Orwellian Thought Police. Yes I realize hundreds of millions of people hate my culture, they hate it more than they love life, I think they made a very bad decision but it's their decision and they will have to live (or die) with it. > How else can one regard a culture where > the majority happily pay half their > income in taxes, and then go on to pay > 25% VAT on top of everything they buy > with the remaining half -- effectively > paying about 60% of /all/ income in > taxes ...just to pay for various social > benefits (and, yes, I do pay up happily). Well, I pay up too but I'm not happy about it, I pay up because they'll put me in jail if I don't. The thing is, I think I could spend the money I earned more wisely and more morally than a bunch of government burrocrats, but don't get me started on that. Eggplant From kkersey at swbell.net Fri Mar 4 16:38:34 2005 From: kkersey at swbell.net (kkersey_austin) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:38:34 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125487 > Valky: > A big clue to DD having been a protective prescence is Colin's > petrification. He was saved by his camera. In the Entrance Hall. > After the Quidditch match. > > An assumption Colin was actually taking photographs at this time > doesn't add up. Colin undoubtedly already has plenty of pictures of > the Entrance Hall, and besides he just went to Quidditch, surely he > used all his film on that. I always assumed that Colin simply saw the basilisk a spit second before the basilisk saw him, and, being Colin, had instinctively grabbed his camera to take a quick shot. There's ample evidence of Colin's enthusiasm for photographic documentation of just about anything he runs across. It is interesting that Dumbledore just happens upon the scene so quickly, though. Karen From kcawte at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 4 17:09:52 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:09:52 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's a liberal References: Message-ID: <42289660.000001.01424@KATHRYN> No: HPFGUIDX 125488 Eggplant The individual must make the judgment of who to respect and who to hold in contempt, I can't see any alternative; I can't see how you could force somebody NOT to have an opinion unless you had control of the Orwellian Thought Police. Yes I realize hundreds of millions of people hate my culture, they hate it more than they love life, I think they made a very bad decision but it's their decision and they will have to live (or die) with it. K I snipped the whole first section by the way because I would have said Stalinist Russia and National Socialist Germany were political systems rather than cultures and I can't find any way of discussing that while remaining even vaguely on topic. When we say Hermione needs to respect the House Elves cultrue we don't mean that she necessarily has to feel respect for them, just that she has to act with respect. You say that many people have no respect for your culture, and that is their right, but how would you like being forced you to live under their rules whether you like it or not because they've decided your culture is not worthy of any respect? If Hermione somehow manages to force the House Elves to conform to her will (which is just as much slavery as the system they live under since she is refusing to allow them to exercise their own free will) then she is, unfortunately, not the only one who would have to live with her decision, so would the thousands of house elves. So far we have met three individuals house elves. All were living in houses where they were treated badly by our standards - one wanted freedom, got it, and is now content, one didn't want freedom, was given it anyway, and is now miserable and drowning her sorrows in the bottle, the other didn't want freedom and managed to twist the rules enough in his own head to go to another branch of the same family (who we know from experience don't necesssarily treat their elves well). (btw it's been a long time since I read the books what exactly was Kreacher's fate? did he end up with the Malfoys or not). So from these three elves one chose freedom (and got it thanks to Harry) and is content, one chose to remain a 'slave' and seemed content with that, one had no choice in the matter at all and is not coping in any way. This does not bode well for Hermione's methods - the only elves we know to be happy are those who had some say in their fate, not those who had their fate imposed on them by outside forces. And can we try to keep the real world, especially current real world, references down to a minimum because bringing real world politics into things is bound to cause a fight of some kind. K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Fri Mar 4 17:19:19 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:19:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hermione's a liberal Message-ID: <20050304171919.75803.qmail@web86206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125489 Alla wrote: >Now, this occurence was brought up to show Hermione's intolerance to werewolves. Do you agree? Personally I tend to think that the fact that Hermione was covering up Remus' secret all year shows her tolerance more truthfully that behaviour in the Shack,when everybody's emotions run high and everybody says things they may not mean at all. Irene: So, why doesn't "emotions run high" excuse apply to Snape in the pensieve scene? I remember you building your case on the fact that from all the possible insults he's chosen to call Lily that word. How come that Ron, from all the possible things he could logically throw at Lupin at his point in time(Traitor, Liar, Deatheater come to mind) chooses "Get away from me, werewolf"? Irene Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From sylviablundell at aol.com Fri Mar 4 17:41:59 2005 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (ladyramkin2001) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:41:59 -0000 Subject: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125490 Tonks wrote: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125491 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kkersey_austin" wrote: > > > > Valky: > > A big clue to DD having been a protective prescence is Colin's > > petrification. He was saved by his camera. In the Entrance Hall. > > After the Quidditch match. > > > > An assumption Colin was actually taking photographs at this time > > doesn't add up. Colin undoubtedly already has plenty of pictures of > > the Entrance Hall, and besides he just went to Quidditch, surely he > > used all his film on that. Karen: > It is interesting that Dumbledore just happens upon the scene so > quickly, though. Geoff: I think assumptions are being made here which are not necessarily borne out or supported in canon. '"What happened?" Madam Pomfrey whispered to Dumbledore, bending over the statue on the bed. "Another attack," said Dumbledore. "Minerva found him on the stairs." "There was a bunch of grapes next to him," said Professor McGonagall. "We think he was trying to sneak up here to visit Potter." Harry's stomach gave a horrible lurch. Slowly and carefully, he raised himself a few inches so he could look at the statue on the bed. A ray of moonlight lay across its staring face. It was Colin Creevey. His eyes were wide and his hands were stuck up in front of him, holding his camera. "Petrified?" whispered Madam Pomfrey. "Yes," said Professor McGonagall. "But I shudder to think... If Albus hadn't been on the way downstairs for hot chocolate, who knows what might have..."' (COS "The Rogue Bludger" p.135 UK edition) (1) What evidence is there to suggest that Colin was found immediately after the attack? He might have been there some time... (2) Which set of stairs was Colin on? Were these leading to the entrance hall? (3) Dumbledore states quite clearly that /Professor McGonagall/ found Colin. (4) So, what do we read into Professor McGonagall's comment about Dumbledore being on his way downstairs and what else does she think might have taken place if he hadn't? From juli17 at aol.com Fri Mar 4 19:17:07 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:17:07 -0500 Subject: They're teenagers Message-ID: <20FCF749.746ABD36.0004E520@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125492 One thing I try to remember while I'm reading the HP books is that we are dealing with teenagers here. Teenagers are rash and impulsive, they often don't consider the consequences of their actions, and believe they are indestructible. This is natural, since it's all part of the human maturation process. They also can be very hurtful to each other, no more so than when they are siblings. While reading, I also do my best to judge them all on the same scale. Thus, both Ron's and Hermoine's reactions in the Shrieking Shack--refering to Lupin by the derogatory "werewolf"--are to me very similar to Snape's angry dismissal of Lily as a "mudblood." They all spoke under stressful situations, in the heat of the moment. They said the first thing that came to mind in their anger and/or fear (something that often comes into the minds of adults too in similar situations, though adults have better control of their impulses and don't as often simply blurt out their first thoughts). To me their words demonstrate more their lack of maturity than their truest opinions. And, in the case of Snape, his words as an adolescent don't necessarily reflect his beliefs as an adult, since we all mature and change as we become adults (well, most of us anyway!). Regarding the twins and Percy, Fred and George do indeed torment Percy. It's not uncommon for siblings to torment each other (and that's an understatement!). Again, they're teenagers, which isn't an excuse, but it is a reason for their immaturity and their lack of perception (that tormenting Percy isn't a constructive act). Siblings pick on each other because they are "safe" targets (friends might end the relationship, but siblings can't). But I don't see the twins as horrible, just immature. Julie From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 19:51:09 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:51:09 -0000 Subject: Opposite of Gryffindor? - Nature of Sorting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > Arynn Octavia wrote: > > I am extremely loyal, ... I'm no Hufflepuff > > I am brave ... I'm no Gryffindor. > > I am intellegent and studious. I am a Ravenclaw. > > I am ambitious ... I am a Slytherin. > > So where would I go? > vmonte responds: > ... the most important key to sorting I believe is where you think > you should be. After all, isn't it our choices that make us who we > are?" > > Also ask yourself these questions: > What is important to you? Who are your role models? ... > > ...edited... > > Vivian bboyminn: Well, we can all speculate about how the Sorting Hat works, and I guess short of a detailed explanation from JKR, your guess is as good as mine. However, my guess is not the same as your. I have to believe that the Sorting Hat looks beyond superficial things. I think it looks deep inside a person and sees what is at their very core, their very essense, their true potential. It sees things far beyond what anyone can know or understand about themselves at the tender age of 11, and make decisions on deeper criteria than personal preference, parental wishes, family history, or your deepest most secret 11-year-old ambitions to be either a superhero or drive an ice cream truck (...still undecided). How else can you explain Neville being a Gryffindor? Neville is as Hufflepuff as they come, and most likely that is how he saw himself before, during, and after the Sorting. So, his opinion of himself and his view of his place in the world certainly couldn't have influenced the Sorting Hat. I have vision of Neville and the Sorting Hat arguing over Gryffindor, the Hat being /for/, and Neville being /against/. How else can you explain Hermione being a Gryffindor? Hermione is about as /Ravenclaw/ as they come, and certainly given her attitudes towards 'book learn'n' and academics, I'm sure that's where she felt she belonged (felt she /belonged/, not wanted to be). Yes, I am aware that Hermione herself said she thought Gryffindor was the best, but that's weighed and measured in the mind of an overly ambitious 11 year old. I'm guessing her 11-year-old desire for Gryffindor was based on the fame and reputation of its members. So, her desire is a desire based on status, a desire to be grouped with the people she thought were best, but I don't think the Sorting Hat gives you a house because you think it is the /best/ house. So, we need to make a distinction between where she wanted to be and where she thought she belonged. So, the Sorting Hat sees your true inner potential, and saw unmanifested courage in both Neville and Hermione. But one could assume that the Hat also saw unmanifested courage in Peter Pettigrew. So what's up with that?? Well, the key isn't potential, it's /unmanifested/. I once knew someone who was a member of Mensa, a society of geniuses. She pointed out that raw intelligence, or potential, was no guarantee of success. One of the members with an extremely high I.Q. spend his life collecting comic books, and working as a dishwasher in a local bar. The obvious point is, of course, that potential isn't always realized or fulfilled. You can have the raw courage that places you in Gryffindor, but that doesn't mean you will be able to summon that courage when the time comes. In Peter Pettigrew's case, his insecurities and fears prevented him from accessing his courageous potential. In addition, in some ways, Peter does have courage. We fall into the belief that grand sounding words like 'courage' always manifest themselves in good ways. But as Phineas Nigellus pointed out, Slytherins have plenty of courage, but in the thick of things, Slytherins will courageously save themselve and their own, rather than jump in and selflessly save others. In this illustration, it is not the presents or absents of courage, but the quality of character and selflessness that are the determining factors. So the presents of courage doesn't alway manifest itself in couragious (read - heroic) ways. In summary, having the inner potential that gets you sorted into a particular house doesn't guarantee that that potential will be realized in positive and/or productive ways. On one last tangental point, I can't bring myself to believe that Slytherins are universally evil, or if evil is too strong a word, then universally bad. Ambitious people have a valid place in life. Ambitious people have courage, the courage to take the risks necessary to do great things. They also have the intellect to figure out how to accomplich great things, and the principle of hard work necessary to make those great things happen. They can be ruthless because they are single minded and driven to achieve their goals. You do not step beyond the crowd and achieve stunning success by politely yielding to every person you meet along the way. Sometimes you have to force the world around you into the direction is must go if success is to be realized. Sometimes when the crowd of mundane around you is blocking your way, you simply have to push your way through the crowd. Those people who strive to greatness and success are almost univerally preceive by the people they leave behind as being a -- (rhymes with witch and starts with 'B'). But being a b-b-b-(w)itch doesn't make you evil. Just one man's opinion. Steve/bboyminn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 20:03:23 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:03:23 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: <20050304171919.75803.qmail@web86206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125494 Alla wrote: Now, this occurence was brought up to show Hermione's intolerance to werewolves. Do you agree? Personally I tend to think that the fact that Hermione was covering up Remus' secret all year shows her tolerance more truthfully that behaviour in the Shack,when everybody's emotions run high and everybody says things they may not mean at all. Irene: So, why doesn't "emotions run high" excuse apply to Snape in the pensieve scene? I remember you building your case on the fact that from all the possible insults he's chosen to call Lily that word. How come that Ron, from all the possible things he could logically throw at Lupin at his point in time(Traitor, Liar, Deatheater come to mind) chooses "Get away from me, werewolf"? Alla: I think you misunderstood me. I do NOT excuse Hermione at all. If , let's say the only evidence of her attitude ot werewolves was that remark, I will be definitely saying that she IS prejudiced to werewolves. As of now I think we have conflicting evidence - we have her covering for Remus all year and ... not letting it slip at the dining table or in the common room and we have her saying that. So, as Susan was saying I don't know what is it. I also brought up Hermione's remark about Firenze as horse upthread, which to me does not sit well either. And OF COURSE there is no doubt in my mind that Ron is prejudiced to werewolves. As you correctly stated he could call Remus ANYTHING, and he chose "werewolf". By the way, I think I was being very nice to Snape when I said "emotions run high". I meant everybody's emotions, including Snape and that I could forgive that nasty things he said to remus and Sirius. So, I think I am being very consistent here. Just my opinion of course, Alla. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 4 20:14:11 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:14:11 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125495 Geoff: > I think assumptions are being made here which are not necessarily > borne out or supported in canon. > > (1) What evidence is there to suggest that Colin was found > immediately after the attack? He might have been there some time... > Hannah: Well, Harry hears the basilisk when he wakes up. Then he has a short conversation with Dobby, lasting a few minutes, followed by DD and McG coming in with Colin. It's reasonable to assume, I think, that the basilisk is on it's way to attack Colin when Harry hears it. So given the time it would take for the basilisk to reach Colin (emerge from pipes etc.), then for McG to find him, DD to arrive, and for them both to haul him up the stairs, I would say McG found him almost immediately after he was attacked. Geoff: > (2) Which set of stairs was Colin on? Were these leading to the > entrance hall? > Hannah: Hogwarts layout is a bit of a mystery to me... Colin is presumably somewhere between the hospital wing and Gryffindor tower - unless he'd gone via the kitchens to get the grapes. Or maybe he'd gone to get the grapes at night (since students apparently aren't meant to take food from the kitchens) and wasn't planning to visit Harry right then at all. The kitchens theory would tie in with DD's 'hot chocolate' story. If McG sleeps near Gryffindor tower (which makes sense given her appearances in PoA and OotP when there are disturbances at night) then her room would also be near the site of the attack. So I reckon stairs between Gryff tower and the kitchens. Geoff: > (3) Dumbledore states quite clearly that /Professor McGonagall/ found Colin. > Hannah: Yes, you're right. Well spotted. So... McG was working with DD to protect the students. It would make sense for DD to have the teachers - at least those closest to him, like McG, helping him if he was indeed trying to protect the Muggleborns. So if there is some sort of alarm system to alert DD to lone Muggleborns in potential danger, perhaps it alerts the nearest teacher, who can get there first, as well as DD. That would make sense to me. If Colin was close to Gryff tower, that would probably make McG the closest staff member. Geoff: > (4) So, what do we read into Professor McGonagall's comment about > Dumbledore being on his way downstairs and what else does she think might have taken place if he hadn't? Hannah: Well, given that it's common knowledge that those petrified can be revived, it's quite possible the monster (or the 'heir') would have tried to finish Colin off rather than leave him there petrified. They fear that possibility later in CoS, as Madam Pomfrey says when refusing permission to enter the hospital wing. McG presumably thinks that her arrival scared the monster off, but perhaps she thought that it would return and attack her too. When DD turned up, the monster was scared off (because DD is the all powerful one, right?) Having two of them there also adds safety in numbers. I think it's quite possible that the basilisk would have tried to kill Colin had it had the chance - after all, it has those poison teeth to try out... Hannah From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Mar 4 20:55:35 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:55:35 -0800 Subject: "Lines" (was: Double standards... what about Umbridge?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1532821316.20050304125535@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125496 Thursday, March 3, 2005, 4:48:27 PM, vmonte wrote: v> I don't know what JKR had in mind introducing v> it. I mean I agree with Rebecca that we were supposed to feel sick v> while reading it, but besides that I am not sure whether it advanced v> plot much or not. I got the feeling that Jo disdained the concept of "Lines" as a standard school punishment (the Mother of All "Busywork"), and was just trying to come up with as hideous a satire of it as she could think of. -- Dave From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 21:25:58 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 21:25:58 -0000 Subject: Percy and the Twins (was: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: <20050304034028.27176.qmail@web61209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125497 >>Betsy: >And, honestly, I don't really blame [Percy] for leaving. Beyond the whole, "you got your job so they could use you to spy on me," argument, the twins were horrible to him. And I don't recall either parent doing anything to protect Percy from them.< >>Joe in SoFla: >I don't think--and I may be a crowd of one on this--that the twins were particularly HORRIBLE to Percy. Yes, they teased him and yes, they made fun of him, but I don't know that what they did to him rose to the standard of an "attack."< >>Tayla: >I think that we can all agree that F&G are immature, even for their age, and that they don't see their jokes in the same light as many of their peers, but I have to agree with Joe on this, I don't think that their "attacks" were just that.< Betsy (hoping she assigned everyone to their words correctly!): But they never let up on Percy. Ever. Percy is *always* their target, from the introduction of the Weasley family in PS/SS until Percy finally leaves home by the beginning of OotP. And the twins never stop. It's always two against one (and sometimes even four against one). And there is absolutely no mention of any retaliation on Percy's part, at all. No, the twins behavior swiftly leaves the land of "funny" and enters the land of "persecution" by the time GoF rolls around. If I'd been in Percy's shoes, I'd have left home as soon as I was of age. >>Julie: (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125492) >Regarding the twins and Percy, Fred and George do indeed torment Percy. It's not uncommon for siblings to torment each other (and that's an understatement!). Again, they're teenagers, which isn't an excuse, but it is a reason for their immaturity and their lack of perception (that tormenting Percy isn't a constructive act). Siblings pick on each other because they are "safe" targets (friends might end the relationship, but siblings can't). But I don't see the twins as horrible, just immature.< Betsy: And that's why I don't give Molly or Arthur a pass on this. Siblings can and will treat each other badly. It's the parents job to make sure no one goes too far. Molly and Arthur failed Percy horribly in this regard. And again, it's the fact that Percy was always the twins chosen victim that bothers me. (I think Ron should be very grateful that the twins left school so quickly after Percy did. Ron has a lot more in common with Percy than he'd like to admit, and the twins know it. If they hadn't been so caught up with Umbridge and their joke shop, I think Ron would have had a miserable fifth year.) >>Tayla: >We do know that F&G took particular offence to the way that Percy was treating them all after getting his job at the MOM, so could it just be that they decided that by pranking him at the very place that he prides himself in would be fitting considering Percy seemed to be attacking his own family?< Betsy: Tayla, you'll need to cite some canon of Percy attacking his family when he first gets his job at the Ministry, because as far as I can remember, it didn't happen. The twins are upset because Percy takes his job seriously, seems to be moving ahead, and requests some *gasp* quiet so that he can get some work done while at home. The twins, apparently, hate the idea of Percy being happy. >>Tayla: >Percy is exhibiting far too many symptoms that we have seen in our own history for me to be comfortable with him around. I cannot remember the exact name they used for it, but we did see some very "Percyish" behavior in Nazi Germany with their own young. Is it disturbing, absolutely. But then again, and I am sorry, but Percy is disturbing.< Betsy: Again, please cite canon. Arthur says that Percy only got his position so that the Ministry can spy on the family (OotP). He doesn't accuse Percy of spying himself. And it could be argued that by breaking with his family Percy makes sure that he *cannot* be used as a spy. How could he possibly keep Fudge informed of his family's movements if he won't even see them? Betsy From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Fri Mar 4 10:37:41 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:37:41 -0000 Subject: Where be dragons in HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125498 I wonder if parselmouths can communicate with dragons. In Ursula le Guin's Earthsea books, dragons are native speakers of the earliest known language, which wizards have to learn laboriously. They are also mysteriously connected with humans, most notably the foster daughter who actually becomes one ... We never did know where Hagrid got Norbert from. And it seems rather a waste to have a Weasley as a kind of dragon gameranger and not hear more about his research findings. Loose ends? Perhaps. What if there can be a physical link between dragons and the humans of the WW? Perhaps something Half-Blooded might come out of it? From dorothywillis at charter.net Fri Mar 4 17:11:52 2005 From: dorothywillis at charter.net (dorothy willis) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:11:52 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) References: <20050304034028.27176.qmail@web61209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001401c520dd$444019c0$6501a8c0@Magister> No: HPFGUIDX 125499 >However, I am curious as to how the denizens of this august body would classify the various characters' types. (I would attribute the above remark if I could figure out who said it.) Somewhere online I read a great essay analyzing the Weasley family members. Unfortunately, I can't find it again! I am not fond of practical jokes, but I don't think Fred and George are terrible people. They have always felt very secure because, not only do they have a loving family, they have each other. Their personalities are extremely close, working together like right and left hands. Someone called them, "a pair of bludgers," and it is a good observation. Hurtling through life, they are intensely loyal to their family and friends, but they certainly are not sensitive creatures who notice nuances! They want to comfort their mother about Percy, but have no idea how to do it except by crude abuse. They can't relate to a younger brother except by teasing him. When Fred wants a date for the ball he hollers across the room at the girl. Luckily Angelina understands him and is not bothered by his ways and gives him as good as he sends. If you can do that, Fred and George are OK. It is only if you let them get under your skin that there is a problem. As far as I can see, the only persons bothered by the twins (outside of the occasional first-year) are Percy and Ron. I think Percy is exactly what he appears to be, and has always responded to the twins like a maiden aunt. Of course this means more of the same. I don't think the dragon dung was outrageous. Compared to some practical jokes I have seen in the workplace it is downright mild! But I don't see evidence Percy is really hurt by all this. He is armored in his self-righteousness. I hate to call Ron sensitive, but he is and I could quote examples but he would be embarrassed. I don't mean sensitive in a bad, sissy way, but as a compliment. This has let him be much more injured by the teasing, etc. Now the twins have left he will probably do a lot better. Dorothy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorothywillis at charter.net Fri Mar 4 17:14:07 2005 From: dorothywillis at charter.net (dorothy willis) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:14:07 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks and Mundungus References: Message-ID: <001a01c520dd$931fc040$6501a8c0@Magister> No: HPFGUIDX 125500 Adesa: >The similarities of Crookshanks' and >Dung's descriptions can't be coincidental, can they? What does this >mean? Crookshanks has always appeared to have prudence and good sense. Mundungus has neither. I doubt they are the same. Just my opinion, of course! Dorothy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From frnsic1 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 20:45:07 2005 From: frnsic1 at yahoo.com (frnsic1) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:45:07 -0000 Subject: The Missing Founders... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125501 Has anyone else noticed that, with the thousands of moving portraits throughout Hogwarts and the rest of the WW, we have not yet seen even one portrait of the original four founders???? Nor has there been mention of the founders on Chocolate Frog cards. Any ideas on this? With all the previous headmasters' portraits giving Dumbledore advice in his office, I would think that it would be useful for him to have advice from the original founders, as well. In fact, with the exception of the sorting hat having bits of the mind of each founder, we have no other "advice-giving" links to them. And was there a headmaster when the four founders were at the school??? - Sally (who believes that the HBP is Godric Gryffindor, and that we may hear from some "imprint" of the founders in book 6)... From digigirl02 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 22:23:38 2005 From: digigirl02 at yahoo.com (digigirl02) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:23:38 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the X-men Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125502 This may seem irrelevant, but I was thinking that there are some parents who don't let their children read Harry Potter, but will let them read series such as the X-Men. Both of which have similarities. Such as -Feature ones with "Super Powers" (wizard,mutants) -Have people who fear/hate/misuderstand(Dursleys,muggles,humans) -Have a school where the young ones learn to use their powers (Hogwarts, Xaiver school for gifted youngsters) -Have a father-like Professor(Dumbledore,Xaiver) -Have ones who misuse their powers and use it hurt others (Voldemort,Magneto,Death eaters,brotherhood of evil mutants) -Have heros who use their power for good and to stop the "evil ones" for world domination.(Harry, Order of the Phoenix, X-men) -Feature orphans(Harry,Cyclops,and others with a troubled past) In conclusion, I am a fan of both series, and others in the similar genra. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 22:49:41 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:49:41 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts on Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125503 > bboyminn (steve): > > When I refer to 'degree of restraint and formality', I am referring to > Draco's general public face. What he does in private, especially what > he does away from the gaze of his parents is quite another thing. But > the /private face/ of everyone, especially when they are out of sight > of authority figures is always quite different than their public face. > a_svirn: I still don't understand. What do you mean by his "public face"? When a teacher is present? Even on these occasions he is never "restraint or formal". Mostly he either gloats or whines and both attitudes are rather undignified and unbefitting to a person of his lineage and social standing. > > > Steve: > > > > > Notice that the Malfoys produced one male heir and stopped having > > > kids. They had done their formal duty, they had done what society > > > had expected of them, and that is all they were obligated to do. > > > a_svirn: > > > > Actually, it is considered prudent for those who are in habit of > > contracting strategic alliances to have at least two sons. A woman > > is said to have done her duty by her husband only when she's born a > > heir and a spare. The Prince of Wales's marriage being the case in > > point. > > bboyminn (steve): > > We are arguing the finer points now. The more general point is the > continuation of the bloodline and the family name, and in Draco, they > have that. Besides, by wizard standards, Mr and Mrs Malfoy are > relatively young, and in Draco's absents, should duty call again, they > are still in a position to produce another heir. a_svirn: Well, then they may still have a whole Quiddich team, like the Weasleys. And we don't even know that Draco is the only child, by the way. (Although you are probably right and he is). bboyminn (steve): > Draco clearly lays out his own aristocratic postion, in the process, > trying to get a picture of where Harry stands. Is he sympathetic to > the pureblood cause? Finally asking the big question of Harry's surname. > > Draco is maintaining a degree of social aloofness and restrained > formality even as he is giving away his pureblood bias. I don't think > in this case Draco is so much bragging, as he is trying to establish > the social /pecking order/ between them; superior, inferior, or equal, > and in what ways. > a_svirn: No doubt I am missing something but how could possibly bragging and trying to impress a total stranger with one's possessions and accomplishments qualify as "aloofness and formality?" And without even bothering to make the necessary introductions first too! Draco may try to affect a "bored drawl", but he is NEVER aloof. If he had been he would have saved himself a great deal of trouble. I am with you when you say that at Mme Malkin's Draco is trying to gauge Harry's status in the WW. My point is that despite this careful training you think he's had as the heir to the "House of Malfoy" he goes about it in a totally wrong way. Either you are wrong and he hasn't been groomed for this highly elevated position after all, or if he has, he's failed miserably. a_svirn From pollynesbitt at yahoo.com.mx Fri Mar 4 03:55:14 2005 From: pollynesbitt at yahoo.com.mx (pollynesbitt) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 03:55:14 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Would Ron really be the one for her? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125504 Hello everyone, even though I?ve been reading posts for quite a while, this is the first time I?ve ever posted, so go easy on me, ok? By the way, I?m writing from Mexico. This whole Ron-Hermione thing just doesn?t seem right. Ron seems to be the kind of guy who falls for everyone. He?s had several crushes, other than Hermione ( Fleur, Rosmerta, the Veelas) so I think the fact that he should like her, is just his way being. He likes girls in general. Now Hermione is a smart girl and I don?t think she?d be content with someone like Ron who falls for every other girl that comes his way.( Although, I do believe that she actually did like Ron at first, until she realized the kind of guy he is). Besides, I think Hermione has realized this and has turned her attention to Harry. Specially now that Cho is out of the way.( Beside the fact that she never was a real threat to begin with). I don?t know,-- my feeble idea. What do you guys think? Cheers PollyNesbitt From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 4 22:46:32 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 22:46:32 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts on Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125505 > > > Steve wrote: Notice that the Malfoys produced one male heir and stopped > having kids. > > a_svirn replied: > > > > > > Actually, it is considered prudent for those who are in habit of contracting strategic alliances to have at least two sons. > > bboyminn (steve)responded: Besides, by wizard standards, Mr and Mrs Malfoy are relatively young, and in Draco's absents, should duty call again, > they are still in a position to produce another heir. > > a_svirn replied: > > Well, then they may still have a whole Quiddich team, like the > Weasleys. And we don't even know that Draco is the only child, by > the way. (Although you are probably right and he is). Hannah: Actually, JKR has said that Draco is an only child, in one of the more recent interviews. I wonder if this has as much to do with circumstances as anything. When Draco was around eighteen months, LV got defeated, and Lucius was accused of being a DE. And Narcissa's sister and brother in law were jailed for terrible crimes. And her cousin was also jailed for being a traitor and mass murderer. They must have been under a lot of strain. Maybe they just had other things to worry about than having children. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Mar 4 23:02:16 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 23:02:16 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125506 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > > > Geoff (earlier): > > I think assumptions are being made here which are not necessarily > > borne out or supported in canon. > > > > > (1) What evidence is there to suggest that Colin was found > > immediately after the attack? He might have been there some time... > > > Hannah: Well, Harry hears the basilisk when he wakes up. Then he > has a short conversation with Dobby, lasting a few minutes, followed > by DD and McG coming in with Colin. It's reasonable to assume, I > think, that the basilisk is on it's way to attack Colin when Harry > hears it. So given the time it would take for the basilisk to reach > Colin (emerge from pipes etc.), then for McG to find him, DD to > arrive, and for them both to haul him up the stairs, I would say McG > found him almost immediately after he was attacked Geoff: But, equally, the basilisk could have been /returning/ from the attack...... > Geoff(earlier): > > (4) So, what do we read into Professor McGonagall's comment about > > Dumbledore being on his way downstairs and what else does she > think might have taken place if he hadn't? > > Hannah: Well, given that it's common knowledge that those petrified > can be revived, it's quite possible the monster (or the 'heir') > would have tried to finish Colin off rather than leave him there > petrified. They fear that possibility later in CoS, as Madam > Pomfrey says when refusing permission to enter the hospital wing. > > McG presumably thinks that her arrival scared the monster off, but > perhaps she thought that it would return and attack her too. When > DD turned up, the monster was scared off (because DD is the all > powerful one, right?) Having two of them there also adds safety in > numbers. I think it's quite possible that the basilisk would have > tried to kill Colin had it had the chance - after all, it has those > poison teeth to try out... Geoff: But why? When Justin Finch-Fletchley and Nearly Headless Nick are attacked and Harry finds them, how long after the attack was this? And the same question can be asked about Hermione. In all these cases, the victims were left where they fell; I suspect that the basilisk could have attacked very quickly and been on its way in just a couple of minutes. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 23:07:24 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:07:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Opposite of Gryffindor? - Nature of Sorting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050304230724.60746.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125507 --- Steve wrote: > But as Phineas Nigellus pointed out, Slytherins have plenty of > courage, but in the thick of things, Slytherins will courageously > save > themselve and their own, rather than jump in and selflessly save > others. In this illustration, it is not the presents or absents of > courage, but the quality of character and selflessness that are the > determining factors. So the presents of courage doesn't alway > manifest itself in couragious (read - heroic) ways. Well, to be fair, that's not exactly what Phineas says: Chapter 23 - OOTP "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." Phineas doesn't say anything about not saving others. What he's commenting on is the thin line that divides Gryffindor bravery from Gryffindor bravado. A dead hero is no good to anyone. He's not talking about leaving others behind or not putting yourself out for others in dangerous situations. As a Slytherin he's opposed to recklessness, to not planning for unforeseen circumstances and he's in favour of getting your priorities right. Sometimes charging into a situation with nothing but selfless heroism to get you through it isn't the best plan - something we see when Harry insists on going to the MOM. Magda (who doesn't doubt at all that Gilderoy Lockhart was a Gryffindor) __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 4 23:06:52 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 23:06:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Would Ron really be the one for her? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125508 Polly Nesbitt wrote: > This whole Ron-Hermione thing just doesn?t seem right. Ron seems to be the kind of guy who falls for everyone. He?s had several crushes, other than Hermione ( Fleur, Rosmerta, the Veelas) so I think the fact that he should like her, is just his way being. He likes girls in general. > Now Hermione is a smart girl and I don?t think she?d be content with someone like Ron who falls for every other girl that comes his way.( > Although, I do believe that she actually did like Ron at first, until > she realized the kind of guy he is). > > Besides, I think Hermione has realized this and has turned her > attention to Harry. Specially now that Cho is out of the way.( Beside > the fact that she never was a real threat to begin with). > > I don?t know,-- my feeble idea. What do you guys think? Hannah: Welcome Polly! It's not a feeble idea, there are plenty of very vehement Harry/Hermione shippers out there. I never get terribly worked up about 'Ships,' but I've always assumed Ron would end up with Hermione. It's true Ron had a crush on Fleur, and expressed some interest in Rosmerta and the Veelas (as did Harry and every other male in the latter case), but then, he's a fifteen year old boy! Of course he's going to show an interest in plenty of girls (I live with a fifteen year old bloke (my brother), and Ron seems about normal as far as I can tell). Ron is only behaving like an average male (or even female, since we're not innocent ;-) ) of that age - in fact, rather more modestly than that. I don't think there's any reason for Hermione to reject him on those grounds. It's not even like Ron's actually doing anything with any of those women. He may fall from them all now, but it's likely that when he's older - and in a relationship - that will change, or at least, he'll learn to be less obvious about it ;-) I would say that the sort of relationship R/Hr shippers envisage is rather deeper than a simple crush. Ron and Hermione are friends first and foremost, so any relationship they end up having will not be based on lust alone. Hermione likes things about Ron that go beyond all that - and I can state that as canon, since they are friends, therefore she must like things about him, even if they aren't going to get together romantically. I don't really see any evidence of Hermione having turned her attention to Harry. Indeed, I don't see much evidence for Hermione being that attentive romantically to either boy, with the exception of her anger over the Yule Ball. Of course, there are some good arguments for H/Hr. But I don't think R/Hr can be dismissed on the grounds of Ron's crush on Fleur Delacoeur and a comment about Madam Rosmerta alone. Just my opinion. I don't argue ships very well, I'm afraid. Hannah From vineet_910 at yahoo.co.in Fri Mar 4 21:50:33 2005 From: vineet_910 at yahoo.co.in (vineet_910) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 21:50:33 -0000 Subject: Harry's OWL in Potions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125509 'Harry corked his smaple flask feeling that he might not have acheived a good grade but that, with luck, avoided a fail' Since rivalry between the potions master and Harry has been a central theme in all the books, and as it has been made clear that snape does not accept anyone but students with an 'O' in his NEWT classes, I was wondering if Harry(& Neville! or maybe Ron) are finally gonna have two Snape free years. My guess is that Snape will finally get his dream job: the DADA post. I think I may have a few reasons to support that Firstly Dumbuledore has had quite a bit of difficulty getting anyone for that job, he couldn't find anyone for the post and that was the reason we landed up with Umbridge in the first place. (assuming of course that Dumbledore for once will appoint a decent DADA teacher, Voldemort being back and not git like Lockhart). maybe it will be easier to find a new potions master instead. Secondly during Harry's cat& mouse duel with Bellatrix, she mentioned learning Dark Arts from Voldemort himself. Its reasonable to assume Snape being former death eater might also have been an earstwhile disciple of LV. And hence knowing what kind of dark magic death eaters use, can teach appropriate defences. And lastly having a new potions master need not necessarily change traditional trends associated with new teachers like... The Name Of A Defense Against The Dark Arts Teacher Never Comes Up Before The Book He Or She Teaches Defense Against The Dark Arts. Harry Always First Learns Or Is Exposed To His Current Defense Against the Dark Arts Teacher Shortly Before Arriving At Hogwarts The Year That Teacher Starts Teaching. Defense Against the Dark Arts Teacher Places Harry Potter In Real Peril At Least Once, If Not More.... etc. etc. From collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 23:02:04 2005 From: collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com (jina haymaker) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:02:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Lines" (was: Double standards... what about Umbridge?) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050304230204.5762.qmail@web52609.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125510 vmonte wrote: v> I don't know what JKR had in mind introducing v> it. I mean I agree with Rebecca that we were supposed to feel sick v> while reading it, but besides that I am not sure whether it advanced v> plot much or not. Dave: I got the feeling that Jo disdained the concept of "Lines" as a standard school punishment (the Mother of All "Busywork"), and was just trying to come up with as hideous a satire of it as she could think of. Jina: I think that Jo was trying to relate something that we had to do in school (sometimes if we were that lucky) when we got in trouble. This was just a great form of punishment using the magic way, instead of the muggle way. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 4 23:28:25 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 23:28:25 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125511 time... > > Hannah originally: Well, Harry hears the basilisk when he wakes up. > Geoff later: > But, equally, the basilisk could have been /returning/ from the > attack...... Hannah now: Shame of shame, I've been affected by film contamination (feels very embarrassed). In the book, Harry doesn't hear the basilisk at all before Colin's attack. He wakes up to see Dobby there and has his conversation. So I'm talking about a false reference point anyway. Colin could have been there for a long while. But I still like the theory that they found him quickly after because DD was trying to protect the students. > >Geoff(earlier): (4) So, what do we read into Professor McGonagall's comment about Dumbledore being on his way downstairs and what else does she think might have taken place if he hadn't? > > Hannah originally replied: Well, given that it's common knowledge that those petrified can be revived, it's quite possible the monster (or the 'heir') would have tried to finish Colin off rather than leave him there petrified. I think it's quite possible that the basilisk would have tried to kill Colin had it had the chance - after all, it has those poison teeth to try out... > > Geoff replied: > But why? > > When Justin Finch-Fletchley and Nearly Headless Nick are attacked and Harry finds them, how long after the attack was this? And the same question can be asked about Hermione. > > In all these cases, the victims were left where they fell; I suspect that the basilisk could have attacked very quickly and been on its way in just a couple of minutes. Hannah now: Yes, my argument does fall down a bit there. Maybe McGonagall is wrong in her assumption that the 'monster' would have waited around to finish off Colin. But they definitely do *think* there is a risk that someone might try to kill those petrified; 'We're taking no more chances... no, I'm sorry, there's every chance the attacker might come back to finish these people off.' Madam Pomfrey, p197 Cos paperback UK ed. The timescale for Hermione's attack is hard to judge, as Harry hears the basilisk quite some time before the attack (given that Hermione has to get to the library, find the book she wants, find the relevant part, do her bit of minor book-vandalism, and head off to tell someone, before she gets petrified). The same goes for Justin's. Perhaps in both cases they were lucky enough to be discovered very quickly, but as you say, it would only take a second for the basilisk to bite them. So I guess that McG's comment refers to an unfounded fear. At that stage, Colin was the first human to be attacked, so McG wouldn't really have known what to expect (she was only a student/ maybe not even at the school when the chamber was first opened). Hannah From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 23:16:28 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 23:16:28 -0000 Subject: Where be dragons in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125512 "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > > > I wonder if parselmouths can communicate with dragons. a_svirn: I always thought dragons were lizards, not snakes. "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > > We never did know where Hagrid got Norbert from. a_svirn: Yes, we do. He "won" it from Quirrel. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 5 00:04:01 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:04:01 -0000 Subject: Opposite of Gryffindor? - Nature of Sorting In-Reply-To: <20050304230724.60746.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125513 Steve wrote: > > > But as Phineas Nigellus pointed out, Slytherins have plenty of > > courage, but in the thick of things, Slytherins will courageously > > save > > themselve and their own, rather than jump in and selflessly save > > others. In this illustration, it is not the presents or absents of courage, but the quality of character and selflessness that are the determining factors. So the presents of courage doesn't alway > > manifest itself in couragious (read - heroic) ways. > > Magda replied: > Well, to be fair, that's not exactly what Phineas says: > > Chapter 23 - OOTP > > "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given > the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." > > Phineas doesn't say anything about not saving others. What he's > commenting on is the thin line that divides Gryffindor bravery from > Gryffindor bravado. A dead hero is no good to anyone. > > He's not talking about leaving others behind or not putting yourself out for others in dangerous situations. As a Slytherin he's opposed to recklessness, to not planning for unforeseen circumstances and he's in favour of getting your priorities right. Sometimes charging into a situation with nothing but selfless heroism to get you through > it isn't the best plan - something we see when Harry insists on going to the MOM. > > Magda (who doesn't doubt at all that Gilderoy Lockhart was a Gryffindor) Hannah now: Ooh - a sorting thread! I love these! Do you think GL was a Gryffindor, Magda? I've always seen him as the stereotypical Slytherin. Ambitious, unafraid to use whatever means necessary to get what he wants, cunning even if he's not clever (and Crabbe and Goyle are living proof that Slytherins aren't necessarily clever). I suppose Lockhart may have *asked* to be in Gryffindor because he perceived it as having a better image, which could explain him being placed there. One of things I really hate about the Sorting system is the way that it tells children what personality traits and qualities they have. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Effectively, the Sorting hat labels each eleven year it places. And all childcare practioners know you should never ever do that. If you tell a child they are 'naughty' they will often end up living up to that image you have given them. So what does the house 'label' given to each Hogwarts student do to each of those children, especially those labelled Slytherin or Hufflepuff? Why do Hufflepuff apparently lag behind the other houses in most things (house points, Quidditch etc.)? Is it because loyal, kind, tolerant, hard working people are all losers? Of course not. It's because Hufflepuff has the image of being 'a load of duffers.' And the children stuck into the 'house of duffers' thus live up to that image. Why are most Death Eaters from Slytherin? Because all ambitious people are pure evil? No, because they are told they are in the 'dark wizard house' and treated as such from day one, for seven of their most important formative years. As for the bravery thing, I don't see bravery as a quality you either have or don't have. I think *anyone* can show bravery under certain circumstances, and yes, anyone can be cowardly. Gryffindors are all perceived as brave because they're labelled as such. If a Gryffindor, for example, saves someone's life, they are being brave. If a Slytherin did the same, they'd be making a cunning attempt to gain themselves the recognition and accolades they so ambitiously crave... It's a question of perception. Presumably the Ravenclaws are too busy reading and the Hufflepuffs still trying to tie their shoelaces when brave deeds need committing. OK, I'll stop ranting now. The house system really gets me worked up (as you can tell!). By the way, I'm railing against the system, not any of the posters here! Hannah I've written a very short fanfic based on the silliness of the sorting system, if anyone's interested. It's at http://www.riddikulus.org/authors/hmarder/EK.html People seem to like it. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 5 00:14:44 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:14:44 -0000 Subject: Harry's OWL in Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125514 Vineet wrote: > Since rivalry between the potions master and Harry has been a > central theme in all the books, and as it has been made clear that > snape does not accept anyone but students with an 'O' in his NEWT > classes, I was wondering if Harry(& Neville! or maybe Ron) are > finally gonna have two Snape free years. > > My guess is that Snape will finally get his dream job: the DADA post. I think I may have a few reasons to support that > > Firstly Dumbuledore has had quite a bit of difficulty getting anyone for that job, he couldn't find anyone for the post and that was the reason we landed up with Umbridge in the first place. (assuming of course that Dumbledore for once will appoint a decent DADA teacher, Voldemort being back and not git like Lockhart). maybe it will be easier to find a new potions master instead. > Hannah: I'd like to see Snape as DADA teacher, but I don't know if we will until book 7 (if then). DD seems determined not to let Snape have the job - and look whom he's been prepared to hire instead of him. He must have a *very* good reason not to want Snape there. I also think that JKR has set Harry up to take Potions for NEWT by making it a compulsary subject for an Auror, and by having that little comment about how he thought his potion was acceptable (I bet he gets an O). I don't think she'd do this unless she was going to keep Snape as Potions teacher, otherwise it seems too improbable and would be pointless for her to do. However, I doubt that Neville or Ron will subject themselves to another two years of it, unless either desperately wants to be an Auror, and gets an 'O' grade. That's not impossible, of course. The problem with Snape having been trained in the Dark Arts by LV (which I would agree is highly likely) is that DD may not see that as a good thing. He knew that LV was back in book 5 and yet didn't make use of Snape's skills then. I suspect DD's fear may be that Snape would have trouble distinguishing between the Dark Arts and the Defence. However, I do think that Harry and Snape will definitely have to have some classes together, so if Harry does give up Potions, Snape will almost certainly become DADA teacher. Hannah From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 01:12:37 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 01:12:37 -0000 Subject: "Lines" (was: Double standards... what about Umbridge?) In-Reply-To: <1532821316.20050304125535@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125515 Thursday, March 3, 2005, 4:48:27 PM, vmonte wrote: v> I don't know what JKR had in mind introducing v> it. I mean I agree with Rebecca that we were supposed to feel sick v> while reading it, but besides that I am not sure whether it advanced v> plot much or not. Dave wrote I got the feeling that Jo disdained the concept of "Lines" as a standard school punishment (the Mother of All "Busywork"), and was just trying to come up with as hideous a satire of it as she could think of. vmonte now: Hi Dave. The above quote you've attributed to me is not mine. But I do like your idea of Umbridge's punishment as a satire of "line" work. It makes sense. Vivian From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 5 02:36:07 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 02:36:07 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125516 Valky earlier: A big clue to DD having been a protective prescence is Colin's petrification. He was saved by his camera. In the Entrance Hall. After the Quidditch match. An assumption Colin was actually taking photographs at this time doesn't add up. Colin undoubtedly already has plenty of pictures of the Entrance Hall, and besides he just went to Quidditch, surely he used all his film on that. Karen: It is interesting that Dumbledore just happens upon the scene so quickly, though. Geoff: I think assumptions are being made here which are not necessarily borne out or supported in canon. '"What happened?" Madam Pomfrey whispered to Dumbledore, bending over the statue on the bed. "Another attack," said Dumbledore. "Minerva found him on the stairs." "There was a bunch of grapes next to him," said Professor McGonagall. "We think he was trying to sneak up here to visit Potter." Harry's stomach gave a horrible lurch. Slowly and carefully, he raised himself a few inches so he could look at the statue on the bed. A ray of moonlight lay across its staring face. It was Colin Creevey. His eyes were wide and his hands were stuck up in front of him, holding his camera. "Petrified?" whispered Madam Pomfrey. "Yes," said Professor McGonagall. "But I shudder to think... If Albus hadn't been on the way downstairs for hot chocolate, who knows what might have..."' (COS "The Rogue Bludger" p.135 UK edition) Geoff asked questions and here are my answers: (1) What evidence is there to suggest that Colin was found immediately after the attack? He might have been there some time... Valky: I don't believe that my theory *needs* this evidence to stand to be honest. Surely DD *was* doing *something* to protect the children who were in danger from the Basilisk. MacGonagall found Colin and she doesn't credit his survival to her being on the scene but to *DD's* presence. This actually supports a theory that Dumbledore came down the stairs knowing that Colin was endangered, used a quick spell to ensure that he was not killed and then tried to trace the steps of the Basilisk as far as possible he could afterwards, fulfilling all duty as a Headmaster of the school, it doesn't contradict it. I feel sure that we can assume at least this much of Dumbledore without it needing to be explicity spelled out in a canon timeline. (2) Which set of stairs was Colin on? Were these leading to the entrance hall? Valky: I did go through this question during the last discussion, which related to DD using a Timeturner. I am pretty sure that Geoff was involved in that discussion, but anyhow. After a good deal of counting levels and reveiwing canon we came to a conclusion that Colin was on the second floor, just above the entrance hall close to the kitchens entrance (tickle the pear). (3) Dumbledore states quite clearly that /Professor McGonagall/ found Colin. Valky: Hmmm yeah but MacGonagall also credits Colins survival to DD's presence as I said, and she does specifically say *we* think he was sneaking up here to see Harry, so they most likely discussed the situation before coming up to hospital wing, MacGonagall does seem to know more than she is telling Madam Pomfrey. Hoever, I am more interested in the grapes. It's been discussed before but has never come to a satisfactory conclusion for me. What kind of a clue is that? Did one of these "transfiguration" professors perform a spell? (4) So, what do we read into Professor McGonagall's comment about Dumbledore being on his way downstairs and what else does she think might have taken place if he hadn't? Valky: Well that's what I read into it, I would like to believe its correct but, I don't suppose we'll find that out right away. There are a *lot* of unnamed motives and actions for JKR to explain in future books. I wonder if any of them at all will be brought into the light. From librarybookgrl at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 01:03:13 2005 From: librarybookgrl at yahoo.com (librarybookgrl) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 01:03:13 -0000 Subject: Is Snape the next to die? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125517 I've been wondering who JKR will kill off next, since she admitted on her site that she will continue to kill characters off. In GOF when Voldemort is looking around the circle of death eaters, he comes to six empty spaces. He says three died in his service. One was too cowardly to show up (Karakoff, since he fled that night?), one has left forever, he will die of course (Snape, since he left to be loyal to Dumbledore), and one at Hogwarts now doing his bidding (Crouch, Jr.). Didn't Hagrid tell Harry that when Voldemort decided to kill someone he usually did it, except in the case of Harry? Sure, Snape is spying and has done some working, evidently, to get back in the good graces of Voldy to get the job done, but one wonders, is this possible? From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 03:14:56 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:14:56 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Would Ron really be the one for her? Message-ID: <15a.4bbf5c08.2f5a7e30@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125518 Polly Nesbitt wrote: > This whole Ron-Hermione thing just doesn?t seem right. Ron seems to be the kind of guy who falls for everyone. He?s had several crushes, other than Hermione ( Fleur, Rosmerta, the Veelas) so I think the fact that he should like her, is just his way being. He likes girls in general. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hannah: Welcome Polly! It's not a feeble idea, there are plenty of very vehement Harry/Hermione shippers out there. I never get terribly worked up about 'Ships,' but I've always assumed Ron would end up with Hermione. It's true Ron had a crush on Fleur, and expressed some interest in Rosmerta and the Veelas (as did Harry and every other male in the latter case), but then, he's a fifteen year old boy! **************************************************** Chancie: Welcome again Polly! I'd just like to add, that I don't think that the fact that Ron had a "crush" on Fleur and the Veelas really says much for his just "liking girls in general" Veelas have special powers over men, causing them to be pretty much uncontrollable in front of them, and since Fleur is part-Veela, I would consider that to basically be the same thing. MANY other guys were attracted to Fleur, to the point of crowding around her, so I think that adds to the point that she had some of the Veela's power over men. ****************************************************** Polly again: > Now Hermione is a smart girl and I don?t think she?d be content with someone like Ron who falls for every other girl that comes his way.( > Although, I do believe that she actually did like Ron at first, until > she realized the kind of guy he is). > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hannah again: I don't think there's any reason for Hermione to reject him on those grounds. It's not even like Ron's actually doing anything with any of those women. He may fall from them all now, but it's likely that when he's older - and in a relationship - that will change, or at least, he'll learn to be less obvious about it ;-) ********************************************************* Chancie now: OK I must admit that I'm kind of confused by all this "someone like Ron who falls for every other girl that comes his way" quote. We've known Ron thru the course of 5 years and liking Rosemerita, Fleur, and Hermione, qualifies him as someone who falls over every girl that crosses his path?? Sorry I don't buy that one! If anything I would consider that a bit conservative! If anyone can add some other examples and prove me wrong I would love to debate them with you! ******************************************************* Polly said: > Besides, I think Hermione has realized this and has turned her > attention to Harry. Specially now that Cho is out of the way.. (Beside the fact that she never was a real threat to begin with). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hannah once again: I don't really see any evidence of Hermione having turned her attention to Harry. Indeed, I don't see much evidence for Hermione being that attentive romantically to either boy, with the exception of her anger over the Yule Ball. Of course, there are some good arguments for H/HR. But I don't think R/HR can be dismissed on the grounds of Ron's crush on Fleur Delacoeur and a comment about Madam Rosmerta alone. **************************************************************** Chancie: Again sorry to say that I disagree Polly. Except for the point about "she was never really a threat to begin with" if Hermione was attracted to Harry, why would she try to explain why Cho was acting the way she was? If she was secretly crushing on Harry, she wouldn't want to help his relationship with Cho, she'd be wanting them to brake up! I can't see anything that points to Hermione wanting Harry for anything more than a friend. Some people point to the fact that Hermione is more comfortable with Harry than she seems to be with Ron. But that's because they are truly just friends and that's all either of them wants. They both know that so it doesn't need to be awkward. They are just friends.I see Ron and Hermione as a couple of teenagers who like each other but are too scared to say so for fear the other doesn't feel the same way. That would be too awkward, and knowing they would have to see this person everyday might make things too uncomfortable so they just avoid the subject. Except for the Yule Ball! Hermione was upset at Ron for not seeing her as a regular girl. And her feelings were hurt that he thought of her as a last resort, just in case I can't get anyone else to take me ... kind of thing. That leads up to Ron and Hermione's fight in the common room. He [Harry] climbed into the common room and found Ron and Hermione having a blazing row. Standing ten feet apart, they were bellowing at each other, each scarlet in the face. Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't you?" yelled Hermione; her hair was coming down out of its elegant bun now, and her face screwed up in anger. "Oh yeah?" Ron yelled back. "What's that?" "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does and not as a last resort!" Ron mouthed soundlessly like a goldfish out of water as Hermione turned on her heel and stormed up the girls' staircase to bed. Ron turned to look at Harry. "Well," he sputtered, looking thunderstruck, "well-- that just proves-- completely missed the point--" Harry didn't say anything. He liked being back on speaking terms with Ron too much to speak his mind now--but he somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had. GOF Chapter 23 The Yule Ball. Page 432 American version. I think this greatly adds to the whole Ron/Hermione SHIP. Hermione uses this as an opportunity try to bring up the subject of them. She wants to see how he reacts, if he feels the same way. Ron, is totally shocked that she could see that he really liked her and that's where the statement he made to Harry comes in. If Hermione didn't like Ron, she wouldn't say "ask me first next time." She wouldn't want her to hurt her friend's feelings by after saying this and Ron coming to ask her "oh sorry Ron, I know I told you to ask me to the next ball, but you see the thing is I really like Harry and not you." That's not Hermione! She wouldn't toy with someone's emotions! And I don't think any one would disput the fact that Ron likes Hermione, or else the subject of Viktor Krum wouldn't be such a touchy one!. Also another hit against the Harry/Hermione Ship, JKR said their relationship is totally platonic!!!! Chancie~who can remember all too well how she felt when she was a teenager with a crush, and is glad to be married and done with the dating games!!!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 03:20:03 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:20:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's OWL in Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125519 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vineet_910" wrote: > Since rivalry between the potions master and Harry has been a > central theme in all the books, and as it has been made clear that > snape does not accept anyone but students with an 'O' in his NEWT > classes, I was wondering if Harry(& Neville! or maybe Ron) are > finally gonna have two Snape free years. GEO: I for think that Harry, Neville and Ron might actually meet and exceed their expectations for the potion OWL simply because Snape isn't actually there to harass them . Besides if Snape gets the DADA job, it changes the whole relationship between Harry&Neville and Snape since potions is a class that Snape is a master of and both H&N aren't versed well in while DADA is a class that Harry is versed extremely well in and where Neville is improving and where Snape judging by his one time substitution of the class isn't exactly the best in. > Secondly during Harry's cat& mouse duel with Bellatrix, she > mentioned learning Dark Arts from Voldemort himself. Its reasonable > to assume Snape being former death eater might also have been > an earstwhile disciple of LV. And hence knowing what kind of dark > magic death eaters use, can teach appropriate defences. GEO: The class is DEFENSE AGAINST the dark arts not instructions on the dark arts. Snape may know loads about the Darks Arts, but that doesn't necessarily mean he knows enough about the defense against them. Besides I think the chief reason the DD doesn't give Snape the job is for Snape's own well being considering he'd be working close to a subject that helped cause his downfall. > The Name Of A Defense Against The Dark Arts Teacher Never Comes Up > Before The Book He Or She Teaches Defense Against The Dark Arts. > Harry Always First Learns Or Is Exposed To His Current Defense > Against the Dark Arts Teacher Shortly Before Arriving At Hogwarts The > Year That Teacher Starts Teaching. > Defense Against the Dark Arts Teacher Places Harry Potter In Real > Peril At Least Once, If Not More.... etc. etc. GEO: But that changes the paradigm. All the previous defense teachers were brand new and I think the present will be too. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 03:23:13 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:23:13 -0000 Subject: They're teenagers In-Reply-To: <20FCF749.746ABD36.0004E520@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125520 Juli: One thing I try to remember while I'm reading the HP books is that we are dealing with teenagers here. >Thus, both Ron's and Hermoine's reactions in the Shrieking Shack-- refering to Lupin by the derogatory "werewolf"--are to me very similar to Snape's angry dismissal of Lily as a "mudblood." They all spoke under stressful situations, in the heat of the moment. They said the first thing that came to mind in their anger and/or fear. To me their words demonstrate more their lack of maturity than their truest opinions. And, in the case of Snape, his words as an adolescent don't necessarily reflect his beliefs as an adult, since we all mature and change as we become adults (well, most of us anyway!). Alla: Juli, I agree with you - they ARE teenagers and that is why I am willing to be more lenient to Ron and Hermione, while still thinking that they may be showing prejudice, because at the heated moments, we may be less guarding of true subconscious thoughts. >From what I SEE of Ron and Hermione I have no doubt that they are all together GOOD people, who will outgrow their prejudices . There is another reason why I am not so sure whether Hermione even has them in the first place. She is muggleborn. How deep can her prejudice against werewolf be if two years ago she did not even know who "werewolf" is in the first place. Anyways, as I said in my previous post I DO find Ron's lashing out at Remus and Snape lashing out at Lily to be similar, sort of. What I disagree with is your last sentence - Snape's adolescent beliefs definitely become his beliefs as adult,IMO, since he did join Voldemort ( unless of course you believe that Snape joined DE without subscribing to their ideology, which I don't). And I can be proven wrong of course, but I just don't see Ron becoming Dark Wizard. I just don't. That is why even though we have seen adult Snape and adolescent Snape and only adolescent Ron, I can forgive Ron more, because according to my understanding of his character, he will never go implementing his prejudice of werewolves into something "real", more likely he will outgrow it as one of the flaws of his childhood. To me, especially after OOP Ron had proven that he is on the right side. As to Snape, even though he came back to Light, I can not help but share Valky's fear that Snape never truly did away with "purebloodism" ideology. No, I don't think it is supported by much of canon, except "pureblood" password of Slytherin dorms in CoS ( and even that we don't know who comes up with them), just my speculation. Just my opinion of course, Alla From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Mar 5 03:39:17 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:39:17 -0000 Subject: shortest stay at Privet Drive Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125521 I've been wondering about the "much pleasanter" (per JKR) reason Harry will leave Privet Drive this year. It struck me that maybe he will have a job with the Ministry of Magic? Sort of an internship or a part-time job, he is the right age to start working. (Not that we've ever heard of *any* of these wizard kids having a job, I suppose not being allowed to do magic would interfere with the kinds of jobs they want, but not even a muggle paperboy among them?) Anyway, we already know Fudge is going to be replaced as Minister. We've already had the Dumbledore vs. Ministry plot, so the next Minister will most likely be on his side. If s/he IS working with Dumbledore, surely Harry, the only one who has defied Voldemort FOUR times, would be someone useful to have around. Or they'd at least want to be nice to the kid for a change. Just a thought. Allison (It seems stupid to me for Harry to have to stay there anyway, since he's only protected INSIDE the house, what good is that??? We already saw what happens when people are trapped inside their houses... It would be safer if he stayed at Hogwarts year round!) From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 03:59:02 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:59:02 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Would Ron really be the one for her? In-Reply-To: <15a.4bbf5c08.2f5a7e30@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125522 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, chnc1024 at A... wrote: > Chancie: > > Again sorry to say that I disagree Polly. Except for the point > about "she was never really a threat to begin with" if Hermione > was attracted to Harry, why would she try to explain why Cho > was acting the way she was? If she was secretly crushing on > Harry, she wouldn't want to help his relationship with Cho, she'd > be wanting them to brake up! GEO: That would assume that Hermione is selfish and only cares about herself, but considering how she was willing to help House Elves and Harry it's quite possible that she helped him because Harry was first and foremost her friend and that she placed his happiness before hers. > I can't see anything that points to > Hermione wanting Harry for anything more than a friend. GEO: Besides her excitement when she thought he got the prefects badge or when she wanted him to help her create more clothes for House Elves? > Some > people point to the fact that Hermione is more comfortable with > Harry than she seems to be with Ron. But that's because they > are truly just friends and that's all either of them wants. They > both know that so it doesn't need to be awkward. GEO: Or perhaps a sign that a pairing between Harry and Hermione who even you acknowledge are naturally suited is perhaps favored by even JKR herself. They are > just friends.I see Ron and Hermione as a couple of teenagers > who like each other but are too scared to say so for fear the > other doesn't feel the same way. GEO: There are lots of signs that Ron favors Hermione, but where are the signs that Hermione favors Ron afterall she was the one that abandoned him in his moment of triumph to go into the FF with Hagrid and Harry and she was the one that helped Harry the most in the Triwizard Tournament whereas she did very little in comparison in helping Ron with his confidence problems in OOTP heck Luna did more in encouraging Ron and trying to lift up his spirits. Hermione was upset at Ron for > not seeing her as a regular girl. GEO: I took that more as Hermione being upset over Ron expressing rather sexist opinions about women and valuing beauty and what is skin deep instead of valuing what is in the heart and mind of the person, which is the anti-thesis of Hermione's very character. > I think this greatly adds to the whole Ron/Hermione SHIP. Hermione > uses this as an opportunity try to bring up the subject of them. GEO: All tha I see is Hermione doesn't like being treated as anybody's object. > She wouldn't want her to hurt > her friend's feelings by after saying this and Ron coming to ask her "oh > sorry Ron, I know I told you to ask me to the next ball, but you see the > thing is I really like Harry and not you." That's not Hermione! She > wouldn't > toy with someone's emotions! GEO: No she wouldn't, but nor is she interested in breaking the trio of Harry, Hermione and Ron just when the break between Harry and Ron was repaired after the First Task and when Ron may still be harboring feelings of jealouse towards Harry. > And I don't think any one would disput > the fact that Ron likes Hermione, or else the subject of Viktor Krum > wouldn't be such a touchy one!. GEO: And Rowling herself has said that everyone is in love with the wrong people in GoF and of course Ron is in love with Hermione in that book just as Harry and Hermione are in love respectively with Cho and Krum. Of further interest, both Harry ahd Hermione try and find love in people that have affiliations with houses that the other was almost sorted into with Cho(Ravenclaw) for Harry and Krum (Durmstrang student aligned Slythering house) for Hermione. > Also another hit against the Harry/Hermione Ship, JKR said their > relationship > is totally platonic!!!! GEO: This has been address over a hundred times already. That statement was made before the writting or publication of GoF and OOTP so it doesn't really apply to the present situation. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 04:09:37 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 04:09:37 -0000 Subject: shortest stay at Privet Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125523 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > Anyway, we already know Fudge is going to be replaced as Minister. > We've already had the Dumbledore vs. Ministry plot, so the next > Minister will most likely be on his side. GEO: How do we know that? Right now some theories are suggesting Lucius Malfoy might worm his way out of Azkaban with a clean record and become the next MoM through the manipulation of the people that appoint the said MoM after the sacking of Fudge? If s/he IS working with > Dumbledore, surely Harry, the only one who has defied Voldemort FOUR > times, would be someone useful to have around. Or they'd at least > want to be nice to the kid for a change. GEO: The ministry is the pinnacle of narrow sighted government and overloaded and useless bureaucracy. If they recognized him they would only see him as a cat's paw against DD and Voldemort and dispose of him after the destruction of the latter and the discrediting of the former. > (It seems stupid to me for Harry to have to stay there anyway, since > he's only protected INSIDE the house, what good is that??? We > already saw what happens when people are trapped inside their > houses... It would be safer if he stayed at Hogwarts year round!) GEO: We've seen Hogwarts getting compromised more than Privet Drive including Peter Pettigrew as Scabbers, Quirrelmort, Voldemort's Diary/Lucius Malfoy, Sirius Black and Barty Crouch Jr. However in comparison, Privet Drive has been compromised a total of once. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 04:20:52 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 04:20:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's OWL in Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > However, I doubt that Neville or > Ron will subject themselves to another two years of it, unless > either desperately wants to be an Auror, and gets an 'O' grade. > That's not impossible, of course. GEO: Considering that Neville's father was an auror that could be very possible. Of course one wonders who is going to be more disturbed by the situation: Snape upon realization that he has to be stuck with his two "favorite" pupils for another two years or Harry and Neville having to go through two more years of mental torture.. > I suspect DD's fear may be that > Snape would have trouble distinguishing between the Dark Arts and > the Defence. GEO: Good point there. Snape might indeed venture into DA territory if he was to take the position of DADA and fall again into darkness. > However, I do think that Harry and Snape will definitely have to > have some classes together, so if Harry does give up Potions, Snape > will almost certainly become DADA teacher. GEO: Very unlikely. He needs the potions class to become an auror. Though I doubt he will become an auror or at least be a servant of the ministry, I'm pretty sure he'll in the end have the qualifications for the job considering Rowling's comments about his possible future post-Hogwarts. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 04:43:58 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 04:43:58 -0000 Subject: Percy and other Weasleys. Was: Weasley types. In-Reply-To: <20050304034028.27176.qmail@web61209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125525 Joe in SoFla: I don't think--and I may be a crowd of one on this--that the twins were particularly HORRIBLE to Percy. Yes, they teased him and yes, they made fun of him, but I don't know that what they did to him rose to the standard of an "attack." Tayla: I think that we can all agree that F&G are immature, even for their age, and that they don't see their jokes in the same light as many of their peers, but I have to agree with Joe on this, I don't think that their "attacks" were just that. We do know that F&G took particular offence to the way that Percy was treating them all after getting his job at the MOM, so could it just be that they decided that by pranking him at the very place that he prides himself in would be fitting considering Percy seemed to be attacking his own family? Percy is exhibiting far too many symptoms that we have seen in our own history for me to be comfortable with him around. I cannot remember the exact name they used for it, but we did see some very "Percyish" behavior in Nazi Germany with their own young. Is it disturbing, absolutely. But then again, and I am sorry, but Percy is disturbing. Tayla (who still says that Percy is a status climbing drape ape) Alla: Joe, you are definitely NOT a croud of one on this one. I love twins and very comfortable with loving them. :) Are they tough? Sure. Do they go beyond "siblings teasing" with Persy? Not to me, especially in light of the fact that EVERYBODY in Weasleys family has trouble dealing with Percy's personality. Again, I think Lupinlore was absolutely right,when he hypothecised that percy's personality is completely different from every other Weasley. I'd say that Percy also should have try to do some adjusting , not just expect it from everybody else. Personally I believe that the reason that Fred and George are so hard on Percy is because they feel that he does not share the values every other Weasley shares. Is that nice? NO, not at all, but I can understand their frustration. And actually, I think that OOP proved it that Percy IS different from other Weasleys ( unless we will learn that he is a spy, which is quite possible, I concede). If he is not a spy, I find him not visiting Arthur in the hospital AND writing that awful letter to Ron to be "immoral actions". Tayla, prior to OOP I did NOT find Percy disturbing, different - YES, disturbing - NO. After OOP I still don't think that he is DE in making, but I also think that he is a very good example of "bad" ambition, or as you so eloquently out it "status climbing drape ape". I speculate that Percy wants to achieve desirable social status and it does not matter to him how many people he hurts in the process, even if those people are his family. I do NOT believe that twins pushed him to it. I believe that Percy was always that way ( Remember the book "prefects who achieved power"?) I don't think that Percy is a lost cause, not at all at least at that point, but I believe that he is the one who has to do major soul searching if he wants to reconcile with his family, NOT the other way around. Betsy: Tayla, you'll need to cite some canon of Percy attacking his family when he first gets his job at the Ministry, because as far as I can remember, it didn't happen. The twins are upset because Percy takes his job seriously, seems to be moving ahead, and requests some *gasp* quiet so that he can get some work done while at home. The twins, apparently, hate the idea of Percy being happy. Alla: There was a wonderful post by Pippin in the past "Whether twins are bullies" discussion ( started by Elkins), which I unfortunately cannot find. She argued that Percy disturbs the comfort of his whole family for the stuff, which is pretty insignificant on the grand scale of things. "Hi, Percy," said Harry. "Oh, hello, Harry," said Percy. "I was wondering who was making all the noise. I am trying to work in here, you know - I've got a report to finish for the office - and it is rather diffcult to concentrate when people keep thundering up and down the stairs." "We are not thundering," said Ron irritably. 'We're walking. Sorry, if we 've disturbed the top secret workings of the Ministry of magic." "What are you working on?" said Harry. "A report for the Department of International Magical Cooperation," said Percy smugly. "We'are trying to standardize cauldron thickness. Some of these foreign imports are just a shade too thin - leakages have been incrreasing at a rate of almost three percent a year-" "That'll change the world, that report will," said Ron. "front page of the Daily Prophet, I expect , cauldron leaks" - Gof, p.55-56, paperback. Sure, you can argue that if this stuff is important for Percy, it should be important for everybody else in the family, but one of the reasons why I love Weasleys so much is because I get the feeling that they ARE concerned with changing the world for the better ( some family members more than other, but they definitely do, after all - ALL older Weasleys are in the Order). I think it is perfectly understandable that they are frustrated that Percy loves caudrons more than his family. Oh, and I also think that he welcomed Harry to the Burrow in incredibly obnoxious way. Betsy: Ron has a lot more in common with Percy than he'd like to admit, and the twins know it. If they hadn't been so caught up with Umbridge and their joke shop, I think Ron would have had a miserable fifth year.) Alla: I sincerely hope not. Ron is ambitious sure, just as Bill and Charley ( whom I also like, event though I don't think that they are well developed, just as twins ,whom I mainly consider cominc relief), but I am hoping that Ron's ambition will not lead him on Percy's road. And who knows, maybe twins' pranks saved Ron from walking down Percy's road. ( choosing his ambition over his family) Just my opinion, Alla From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 04:50:23 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 04:50:23 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Would Ron really be the one for her? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125526 Ok, old lady that I am I really don't care about all of the Ship stuff, but I feel the need to put in my 2 knuts worth here anyway. Ron and Hermione are right for each other. Look at the relationship between Arthur and Molly. What do you see? An example of Ron and Hermione 20 years from now. Ron is attracted to Hermione because she is a strong woman like his mother. And strong women do best with a husband like Arthur/Ron. Also JKR keep giving us hints that they each really are attracted to the other, but don't know or what to admit it to themselves. As to Harry. Well I have a theory here. In CS, I think that Ginny represents Eve and Harry represents Adam. Both are doomed to death in the tomb until the symbol of XC comes to rescue them. So it would follow that if Harry ends us with a girlfriend it will be Ginny. Hence a new Adam and a new Eve restored to eternal life. I know this sound far fetched, but it is JKR we are dealing with here. Hermione will be Harry's friend for life, I can't see them as anything else. They have that ease of friendship that comes when you know that you are friends and nothing else. Harry could even talk to Hermione about his problems with girls and she would be OK with that. Hermione could even talk to Harry about boys, not that she would, but if she did it would be OK with him. Tonks_op From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 05:00:15 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:00:15 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Would Ron really be the one for her?~ Message-ID: <105.5c0967da.2f5a96df@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125527 In a message dated 3/4/2005 8:01:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, greatelderone at yahoo.com writes: > Also another hit against the Harry/Hermione Ship, JKR said their > relationship > is totally platonic!!!! GEO: This has been address over a hundred times already. That statement was made before the writting or publication of GoF and OOTP so it doesn't really apply to the present situation. ************************************************* Chancie: I just wanted to include the exact quote, and a few others regarding ships between the trio. Each is a quote from different chats/apperences, and you may check them at: _http://www.madamscoop.org/themes/ships.htm_ (http://www.madamscoop.org/themes/ships.htm) I will have to wait until tomorrow to debate the rest of your post since it is getting close to my daughters bed time, but after reading some of these quotes you may with drawl your arguments. So here are the quotes: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JKR: *looking through questions* No, don't like that one. Oh, I like this one? do Harry and Hermione have a date? [laughter] No. They are ? they?re very platonic friends. But I won?t answer for anyone else, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. [laughter and sound of kids going ?Aaah!?] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chancie: The person asked will they have a DATE. I don't take that to mean ONLY in book 4. It's not will they date in book 4. Hermione and Ron didn't even get close to dating in book 4, and sense we didn't know Krum... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - On whether Harry and his friend Hermione will have a date when they get older: "No, but I won't answer for anyone else - nudge, nudge, wink, wink." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chancie: Same thing here they will not date when they are older!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ sammyohyeah asks: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of GOF? I love your books, btw, and two of them I've read stright through cover to cover in under 24 hours. jkrowling_bn: well done on the reading speed! jkrowling_bn: yes, something's 'going on'... jkrowling_bn: but Ron doesn't realise it yet... jkrowling_bn: typical boy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chancie: Ok this is OBVIOUSLY post GOF! =) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Does Hermione love Ron or Harry? I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chancie: Ok I have to say this doesn't help either case, but I thought I'd include it any way. Well there are all the Harry/Hermione and Ron/Hermione quotes I could find. I look forward to seeing if any of you can use these quotes to justify a H/HR ship! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 05:07:53 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 05:07:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Would Ron really be the one for her? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > Ron and Hermione are right for each other. Look at the relationship > between Arthur and Molly. What do you see? GEO: All I see is that Ron is not his father just as Harry is not like James. As for hermione, she is the opposite of Molly and I think she has a better chance of becoming a Death Eater with mark and mask than a copy of Molly Weasley. > An example of Ron and > Hermione 20 years from now. Ron is attracted to Hermione because she > is a strong woman like his mother. And strong women do best with a > husband like Arthur/Ron. GEO: Is that a fact? I think thats more of your opinion considering Rowling hasn't yet established universal laws in her universe on how relationships work. > So it would > follow that if Harry ends us with a girlfriend it will be Ginny. > Hence a new Adam and a new Eve restored to eternal life. I know this > sound far fetched, but it is JKR we are dealing with here. GEO: The problems I've with his relationship is that it's not one of equals (Ginny is taken over by a mere shadow of young Voldemort's spirit while in contrast Harry battles Voldemort and his spirit and survives numerous times including being taken over briefly by the inherent qualities within himself). I would rather have Harry ending up with someone thats more of his equal like Hermione or even perhaps Luna. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 05:18:53 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 05:18:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Would Ron really be the one for her?~ In-Reply-To: <105.5c0967da.2f5a96df@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, chnc1024 at A... wrote: > - On whether Harry and his friend Hermione will have a date when they get > older: "No, but I won't answer for anyone else - nudge, nudge, wink, wink." > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Chancie: > Same thing here they will not date when they are older!!! GEO: And in regard to that quote we only have the intepretation of the article. We don't have the entire transcript to see the context of the quote unless you have the link to the transcript somewhere. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > sammyohyeah asks: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and > Hermione during the last half of GOF? I love your books, btw, and two of them > I've read stright through cover to cover in under 24 hours. > jkrowling_bn: well done on the reading speed! > jkrowling_bn: yes, something's 'going on'... > jkrowling_bn: but Ron doesn't realise it yet... > jkrowling_bn: typical boy > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Chancie: > Ok this is OBVIOUSLY post GOF! =) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ GEO: Yes and she doesn't acknowledge that Hermione has feelings for Ron. All she says is something is going on between them, which there is: Hermione trying to fight off Ron's less than obvious jealousy and envy over her date with Krum. Besides I for one never take much stock in her quotes considering the whole bit that happened over Lockhart appearing in OOTP. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 05:31:15 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 05:31:15 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny and Harry. AND Would Ron really be the one for her? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125531 Tonks: So it would follow that if Harry ends us with a girlfriend it will be Ginny. Hence a new Adam and a new Eve restored to eternal life. I know this sound far fetched, but it is JKR we are dealing with here. GEO: The problems I've with his relationship is that it's not one of equals (Ginny is taken over by a mere shadow of young Voldemort's spirit while in contrast Harry battles Voldemort and his spirit and survives numerous times including being taken over briefly by the inherent qualities within himself). I would rather have Harry ending up with someone thats more of his equal like Hermione or even perhaps Luna. Alla: I don't know if I buy Tonks analogy, but I tend to agree with her that if Harry ends up surviving ( pretty pleae, JKR:o)) and with girlfriend - it will be Ginny or Luna or any other secondary character ( Parvaty, Susan Bones,whoever). Simply because to me text SO clearly points to Ron and Hermione. I just think that Hermione is "taken' in JKR's mind. Could be wrong, but as I said again, whoever makes Harry happy is fine with me, I don't really care much. :o) What I do disagree with is that Harry and Ginny are not equals. Ginny is the ONLY one who understand what does it mean to have Voldemort in her head, so she clearly knows what Harry is going through And she was not just taken by Riddle. She thought against him bravely. She after all tried to tell Harry what is going on even when Riddle was getting stronger and stronger and if Percy did not show up, maybe she would. So, she did not allow Riddle to make her a complete zombie. As to final fight in Chamber, that was the classical "hero saving beatiful maiden" fairy tale moment, IMO. Just my opinion, Alla From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 06:13:47 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 06:13:47 -0000 Subject: I am Woman--what's that got to do with it! Not Molly's problem but Percy's... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125532 >Tayla wrote: Percy wasn't keeping things from his family because of a percieved lecture from Molly, more so I believe he was keeping to himself because he didn't want to give F&G any more ammunition to use against him, and Molly would probably slip up at some time. Percy has always shown that he was embarassed about his family and the way that would affect his abilities to "climb the drapes". Is that Molly's fault? Valky responded: > Sounds like you are accusing Percy. They are both imperfect, but my theory draws on the canon closeness between them to suppose that Percy was a highly aware young man who managed to attune to and perceive his mothers personal battle with her isolation as a "Blood Traitor". snip vmonte now: It makes more sense that Percy kept his relationship with Penelope quiet because HE was embarassed about his girl friend. It seems to me that Percy has always done what he likes. He doesn't seem to be the kind of person who fears hurting or offending his family. Percy is not a highly aware man, at least not with regards to his family. He is a man that is only highly aware of himself, and what affects him directly. (Come on don't you know people like this?) He didn't seem to care one bit about his father who was dying (for all he knew) in the hospital. Do you really think that he didn't go to the hospital because of a family fight? Or could it really be that he didn't want to hurt his chances of moving up the ladder at work?! Why would Percy's actions, regarding anything, have to do with his mother? What's his excuse for not going to see his father at the hospital? And please don't tell me it was because of his mother because I think that it is something else altogether. You never heard of people secretly dating people they believe are beneath them? Isn't it possible that Percy was ashamed of Penelope? Perhaps the only person in the Weasley family that is having a personal battle with being a "blood traitor" is ONLY Percy. Vivian From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Mar 5 07:37:50 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 07:37:50 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125533 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: Hannah: Yes, my argument does fall down a bit there. Maybe > McGonagall is wrong in her assumption that the 'monster' would have > waited around to finish off Colin. But they definitely do *think* > there is a risk that someone might try to kill those petrified; > > 'We're taking no more chances... no, I'm sorry, there's every chance > the attacker might come back to finish these people off.' Madam > Pomfrey, p197 Cos paperback UK ed. > > The timescale for Hermione's attack is hard to judge, as Harry hears > the basilisk quite some time before the attack (given that Hermione > has to get to the library, find the book she wants, find the > relevant part, do her bit of minor book-vandalism, and head off to > tell someone, before she gets petrified). The same goes for > Justin's. Perhaps in both cases they were lucky enough to be > discovered very quickly, but as you say, it would only take a second > for the basilisk to bite them. So I guess that McG's comment refers > to an unfounded fear. At that stage, Colin was the first human to > be attacked, so McG wouldn't really have known what to expect (she > was only a student/ maybe not even at the school when the chamber > was first opened). Geoff: You have a very valid point here. We are, I suppose, looking at the events in hindsight and know who the attacker was. To Madam Pomfrey and Minerva McGonagall, it would be similar to a terrorist attack out of the blue. They did not know who the attacker was or what the aims of the attack were and might well be expecting a repeat. We know that, if the basilisk had been still around after the attack on Colin, Dumbledore might well have come down to find a petrified student and a dead professor. And, in the climate of fear which was pervading Hogwarts, people might well have expected worse than this. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Mar 5 07:48:54 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 07:48:54 -0000 Subject: Where be dragons in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > "deborahhbbrd": > > We never did know where Hagrid got Norbert from. > a_svirn: > Yes, we do. He "won" it from Quirrel. Geoff: Did he? We can perhaps assume this based on circumstantial evidence. '"Where did you get it,Hagrid?" said Ron, crouching over the fire to get a closer look at the egg. "It must've cost you a fortune." "Won it," said Hagrid. "Las' night. I was down in the village havin' a few drinks an' got into a game of cards with a stranger. Think he was quite glad to get rid of it, ter be honest."' (PS "Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback" p.170 UK edition) We know from a later conversation that Hagrid told this stranger about Fluffy which implies that it was Quirrell but it's not down in black and white. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 08:08:02 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 08:08:02 -0000 Subject: Opposite of Gryffindor? - Nature of Sorting In-Reply-To: <20050304230724.60746.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125535 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > --- Steve wrote: > > > But as Phineas Nigellus pointed out, Slytherins have plenty of > > courage, but in the thick of things, Slytherins will courageously > > save themselve and their own, rather than jump in and selflessly > > save others. > Magda: > > Well, to be fair, that's not exactly what Phineas says: > > Chapter 23 - OOTP > > "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given > the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." > > Phineas doesn't say anything about not saving others. ...(moved up > from next paragraph)He's not talking about leaving others behind or > not putting yourself out for others in dangerous situations. bboyminn: I reformated your paragraphs slightly. I'm confused how you can interpret "...we will always ... save our own necks..." as anything other than saving yourself rather than others. He, in the context of the book and that scene, is saying that he understands Harry running away and saving himself, which implies leaving other behind. To say you are 'saving your own neck' generally implies, selfishly saving yourself rather than selflessly saving others at the risk of yourself. The rare exception is those occassion when, in order to save /your own neck/, you must save the neck of others. My main point is that bravery and courage can manifest themselves in many ways, not all of those manifestations are considered /heroic/. I also made the point with regard to the house that you are sorted to, using Gryffindor and courage as an illustration, that the inner presence of a /house quality/ doesn't guarantee it manifestation in the outer world. Hufflepuffs can accomplish very little, Slytherins are not guaranteed finacial success, Ravenclaws are not always able to effectively apply their intellect, and Gryffindors are not always able to summon their courage. So, the point is that the Sorting Hat can see qualities deep within you, that, for whatever reason, you are never able to fully demonstrate. Peter is a good example. It is assumed that he is a Gryffindor, and the fact that he is a weak will, approval seeking, fearful coward doesn't mean the Sorting Hat got it wrong; it means that Peter never used the assets he had in a positive and productive way. Taking that to it's most basic premise regarding the Sorting Hat, the Sorting Hat makes it's decision based on things it sees deep inside a person, and essential inner quality, and not based on superficial desires as others seemingly suggested. Expanding that, in an attempt to explain seemingly inconsistent characters, just because the Sorting Hat see that quality within you is no guarantee that it will be realized in your outer life; you can have Gryffindor courage, and not necessarily be a courageous Gryffindor. > Magda continues: > > As a Slytherin he's opposed to recklessness, to not planning for > unforeseen circumstances and he's in favour of getting your > priorities right. Sometimes charging into a situation with nothing > but selfless heroism to get you through it isn't the best plan - > something we see when Harry insists on going to the MOM. > > Magda (who doesn't doubt at all that Gilderoy Lockhart was a Gryffindor) bboyminn: I think there are other aspect of Phineas's conversation with Harry, as well as general principle, that can support your statement in this last paragraph, but I don't think that can be derived from the quote you've given us at the top of your post (quote from Phineas). Slytherins are more likely to proceed with a plan and an objective rather than recklessly diving in, that's just good business practice. But I don't think that is at the heart of this conversation, and it strays from the fact that I was simply illustrating that courage can manifest itself in a variety of ways, not all positive. Further, my purpose in making the illustration, was to support my basic premise about the nature of the Sorting Hat, and to explain seemingly inconsistent characters. Just trying to clarify. Steve/bboyminn From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Mar 5 08:52:02 2005 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 08:52:02 -0000 Subject: Is Snape the next to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "librarybookgrl" wrote: > > > I've been wondering who JKR will kill off next, since she admitted > on her site that she will continue to kill characters off. In GOF > when Voldemort is looking around the circle of death eaters, he > comes to six empty spaces. He says three died in his service. One > was too cowardly to show up (Karakoff, since he fled that night?), > one has left forever, he will die of course (Snape, since he left to > be loyal to Dumbledore), and one at Hogwarts now doing his bidding > (Crouch, Jr.). Didn't Hagrid tell Harry that when Voldemort decided > to kill someone he usually did it, except in the case of Harry? > Sure, Snape is spying and has done some working, evidently, to get > back in the good graces of Voldy to get the job done, but one > wonders, is this possible? Sue: I don't think Snape will be killed off before the end of Book 7, if then. He is too important to the development of the plot. LV said that about "he will be killed, of course" all the way back in Book 4 and it was not Snape but poor Sirius who bit the dust in OOP. I suspect LV is too distracted with other problems at this stage. He has lost a lot of followers at the end of OOP - well, at least till they escape from Azkaban again, anyway (I think Draco is right there). He might find it a bit hard to kill Snape at this stage. Besides, it would make such a wonderful bit of drama, at the end of #7, for Snape to die at the climax, saving the day and cursing Harry as he went... ; - ) From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Sat Mar 5 11:30:40 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:30:40 -0000 Subject: Is Snape the next to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125537 librarybookgrl: > > I've been wondering who JKR will kill off next, since she admitted > > on her site that she will continue to kill characters off. In GOF > > when Voldemort is looking around the circle of death eaters, he > > comes to six empty spaces. He says three died in his service. One > > was too cowardly to show up (Karakoff, since he fled that night?), > > one has left forever, he will die of course (Snape, since he left to > > be loyal to Dumbledore), and one at Hogwarts now doing his bidding > > (Crouch, Jr.). Didn't Hagrid tell Harry that when Voldemort decided > > to kill someone he usually did it, except in the case of Harry? > > Sure, Snape is spying and has done some working, evidently, to get > > back in the good graces of Voldy to get the job done, but one > > wonders, is this possible? > > Sue: > > I don't think Snape will be killed off before the end of Book 7, if then. He is too important > to the development of the plot. LV said that about "he will be killed, of course" all the way > back in Book 4 and it was not Snape but poor Sirius who bit the dust in OOP. I suspect LV > is too distracted with other problems at this stage. He has lost a lot of followers at the end > of OOP - well, at least till they escape from Azkaban again, anyway (I think Draco is right > there). He might find it a bit hard to kill Snape at this stage. > > Besides, it would make such a wonderful bit of drama, at the end of #7, for Snape to die at > the climax, saving the day and cursing Harry as he went... ; - ) Julia here: I've read a very interesting article about this on MuggleNet: http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt15.shtml Maline, the author of this theory, thinks that LV didn't refer to Snape when saying about the DE who left him forever... (she actually states that it was Fuge) And I agree with her - it can't be Snape because if LV knew that he is on DD's side Snape wouldn't be able to spy on any DE or LV himself... But read the article there are some good evidences. Julia who wonders who might the missing DE be and why he hasn't been killed so far...? From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 11:52:07 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:52:07 -0000 Subject: Percy and other Weasleys. Was: Weasley types. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125538 >Joe in SoFla wrote: I don't think--and I may be a crowd of one on this--that the twins were particularly HORRIBLE to Percy. Yes, they teased him and yes, they made fun of him, but I don't know that what they did to him rose to the standard of an "attack." >Tayla wrote: I think that we can all agree that F&G are immature, even for their age, and that they don't see their jokes in the same light as many of their peers, but I have to agree with Joe on this, I don't think that their "attacks" were just that. We do know that F&G took particular offence to the way that Percy was treating them all after getting his job at the MOM, so could it just be that they decided that by pranking him at the very place that he prides himself in would be fitting considering Percy seemed to be attacking his own family? Percy is exhibiting far too many symptoms that we have seen in our own history for me to be comfortable with him around. I cannot remember the exact name they used for it, but we did see some very "Percyish" behavior in Nazi Germany with their own young. Is it disturbing, absolutely. But then again, and I am sorry, but Percy is disturbing. Tayla (who still says that Percy is a status climbing drape ape) >Alla wrote: Joe, you are definitely NOT a croud of one on this one. I love twins and very comfortable with loving them. :) Are they tough? Sure. Do they go beyond "siblings teasing" with Persy? Not to me, especially in light of the fact that EVERYBODY in Weasleys family has trouble dealing with Percy's personality. Again, I think Lupinlore was absolutely right,when he hypothecised that percy's personality is completely different from every other Weasley. I'd say that Percy also should have try to do some adjusting , not just expect it from everybody else. Personally I believe that the reason that Fred and George are so hard on Percy is because they feel that he does not share the values every other Weasley shares. Is that nice? NO, not at all, but I can understand their frustration. And actually, I think that OOP proved it that Percy IS different from other Weasleys ( unless we will learn that he is a spy, which is quite possible, I concede). If he is not a spy, I find him not visiting Arthur in the hospital AND writing that awful letter to Ron to be "immoral actions". vmonte responds: I agree that the twins are not malicious brothers who pick on their siblings. Percy is the one with the problem, not his family. It may turn out in the end though that he realizes what an idiot he has been. Probably after his mother gets killed saving his sorry ass. I agree with Alla that Percy has no excuse for not visiting his father at the hospital. And Joe you are also right that they never "attacked" him, just teased him. The twins do not single out Percy either. They tease everyone, including Harry. And no one else has turned their back on their family and friends. Echo: Was Percy acting entirely of his own accord in Order of the Phoenix? JK Rowling replies -> I'm afraid so. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm Tayla, you are right, Percy is disturbing! Vivian From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 03:12:26 2005 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:12:26 -0000 Subject: Ron as Half Blood Prince? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125539 I have been rereading the OOP and came across a line I didn't remember from first reading. Or maybe it just hit me differently. But when Harry is dreaming he dreams of Ron and Ginny in Crowns. Has this been discussed before? I can't find it if it has. Would like to open it for discussion if it hasn't and would like a place to find it if it has. thanks sherry From datalaur at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 08:02:19 2005 From: datalaur at yahoo.com (datalaur) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 08:02:19 -0000 Subject: Malfoy influence/social circles (was Draco and Daddy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125540 horridporrid03 at y...> wrote: > An aside on the Slytherin brooms: Lucius bought the team brooms to > show off his wealth. This was the time period that Lucius starts > courting Fudge, and he uses the impression of wealth (I have some > doubts as to the veracity of the "Malfoy Fortune") to do so. What > better form of display than to sponser his son's quidditch team? It > gets the message out to his peers as well. I find a section of GOF very interesting with regard to how well known/connected the Malfoys and Blacks are to the Ministry and high society circles: GOF US p. 100 and 101 "The Quidditch World Cup" chapter: Fudge (talking to Harry) "...Good job too, these Bulgarian blighters hve been trying to take cadge all the best places... ah, and here's Lucius!" "Ah, Fudge," said Mr. Malfoy, holding out his hand as he reached the Minister of Magic. "How are you? I don't think you've met my wife, Narcissa? Or our son, Draco?" There are some very curious things going on here. 1. How come Fudge calls "Lucius" by his first name when speaking to Harry? (I can't think how Fudge would expect Harry would know Lucius Malfoy by his first name, and yet he never says Lucius's last name. Unless Fudge knows about Lucius/Harry/Dumbledore's meeting at the end of COS?) 2. I am stunned that Fudge doesn't know / greet Narcissa right off, or secondarily that Lucius doesn't say something to the effect of, "I'm sure you recall my wife, Narcissa...." If the Malfoys or the Blacks are/were so famous and influential, how come Fudge has apparently never met Narcissa at a party or something? Evidently the Fudges and the Malfoys/Blacks do NOT move in the same social circles. Fudge and Lucius Malfoy seem roughly of an age, so why have they not met at some function / party at some time in the past? This seems to imply Cornelius and Lucius are recent acquaintances... due to Lucius' donations only? So who ARE the Malfoys' peers? 3. How come Fudge uses "Lucius" but Lucius uses "Fudge" (without using his title)? Not sure about British society (are politicians looked down upon in some sense?), so I'm not sure if that is meant to imply Lucius doesn't have the 'right' to call the minister by his first name (e.g. Lucius is less senior), or if it implies Lucius has the seniority? Equality would seem to be if they addressed each other the same way (i.e. both by first name) 4. Also, Fudge thinks but isn't sure if Lucius knows Arthur Weasley. "...And let's see who else--you know Arthur Weasley, I daresay?" That seems kind of weird. Maybe this is supposedly to imply the JKR's wizarding world is bigger than it seems to us readers (just like Hogwarts student population). So again, Fudge hasn't been at events where both Weasleys and Malfoys are present. Okay, so maybe neither the Malfoys nor the Weasleys attend any Ministry functions... the Weasleys I can understand, given Arthur's minor job and finances, but the Malfoys not being known at Ministry functions (surely there are international / high society functions) seems -really- odd. 5. Last but not least, the Malfoys are sitting -behind- the Weasleys. Sounds like the Weasleys have the better seats. (The box has "about twenty purple and gilt chairs stood in two rows here, and Harry, filing into the front seats with the Weasleys..." I can't tell for 100% sure which row Fudge and the Bulgarian Minister are in, but it seems implied that it is the front row next to Ludo Bagman, the commentator. Maybe Arthur should have asked Lucius 'what he had to sell to get these top box seats', rather than the other way around, eh? What do you all think? laur From arriettyjo at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 08:30:01 2005 From: arriettyjo at yahoo.com (joann) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 08:30:01 -0000 Subject: Who is a Vampire? In-Reply-To: <20050226163147.48767.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125541 pippin_999 wrote: > > > Maybe one reason for JKR's "Erm, I don't think so" answer is that > > there is no universally accepted Potterverse answer to the > > question 'who is a vampire?' Like the term 'half-blood' the > > definition may depend on who is using the term.... > > > > So JKR could have meant, "Erm, *I* don't think so (but some of > > my characters might.)" I'vee been thinking maybe Snape isn't a vampire, but someone else is. I've only just begun a serious reread of the books and am only on SS, so I maybe later books will disprove my theory. But maybe Voldemort is the vampire. That would explain JKR's "Erm" and Prof. Quirrell's interest in vampires. And doesn't Voldemort operate at night? arriettyjo From lsanford at lnls.org Sat Mar 5 09:03:35 2005 From: lsanford at lnls.org (L Sanford) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 03:03:35 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy and other Weasleys. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125542 Alla states: I don't think that Percy is a lost cause, not at all at least at that point, but I believe that he is the one who has to do major soul searching if he wants to reconcile with his family, NOT the other way around. Molley here: I don't know at this point if the Weasley family would accept his attempts to reconcile were he to make any. Percy has been hateful, arrogant, pompous and hurtful and while the whole family feels the sting, I think Molly has been hurt the worst. The other kids have not only had to deal with their own emotions regarding Percy's rejection of the family, but they've been there to witness their parent's heartbreak first hand. I hope I'm wrong here, but I'm afraid when Percy left the way he did, he locked the door, threw away the key and burned the bridge that got him there. The ONLY circumstance in which I see Percy being accepted back into the fold except by his mother and (probably with reluctance) his father is if he was acting under an imperious curse from LV or Pettigrew. Even then, I don't know that his siblings will ever entirely trust or accept him again. From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 5 09:56:13 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (sandra87b) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 09:56:13 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal - she's a corny pain! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125543 > Kemper now: > I'm not arguing Hermione's lack of tolerance; I'm arguing her lack of > consideration towards a people who have a seemingly unchanged culture > that has continued for centuries. > I consider Hermione a liberal as you have well defined it. But > again, she could use a mentor. > Kemper > Thanking Alla for the opportunity to expound on the thread. In my opinion Hermione is a pain in the backside and a dismally embarrassing character. Female characters are capable of doing more in a story than just being the goody-goody, moral-conscience (one Lisa Simpson is enough, thank you - and at least LS is amusing) swots. Without her, Harry might actually have to do some work (or homework) and get motivated by himself every now and then. Take a look at The Odessa Stone for a decent female lead - I love that book, and the three leads (two good, one evil) were deeply believable and 'real'. Unlike the cringeworthy Ms Know-It-All-So-Harry-Doesn't-Have-To. She was okay in the first book, a nice foil to the underprivileged pure-blood Ron and the over-privileged under-loved Harry, but I found her grating in the second, annoying in the third with her "girly swot, brain the size of a planet" persona, and just plain irritating in the 4th and 5th with all the wet-liberal House Elf nonsense and her constant zero-personality preaching. I think JKR is just setting up a scene in books 6 or 7 whereby the House Elves help the trio out of a big scrape, if not the final big scrape of book 7. Hermione finally saves the day, in a round about way. It's just so tedious getting there. Sandra (getting all indignant about the clich?d Hermione, again.) From collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 01:14:02 2005 From: collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com (jina haymaker) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:14:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks and Mundungus In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050305011402.40333.qmail@web52606.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125544 Adesa wrote: Now I'm sure this has probably been discussed here before, so forgive me for misssing it in the archives. But JKR has always been *very* careful about her word choice. The similarities of Crookshanks' and Dung's descriptions can't be coincidental, can they? What does this mean? Jina: I also noticed some similarities too. Although at first I thought that Crookshanks was and animagus (that would be he could be Mundungus) but they JK said that Crookshanks was not an animagus, but it is all very interesting....the selection of JK's wording. Jina From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 5 12:36:09 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:36:09 -0000 Subject: Is Snape the next to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125545 wrote: > I've been wondering who JKR will kill off next, since she admitted > on her site that she will continue to kill characters off. In GOF > when Voldemort is looking around the circle of death eaters, he > comes to six empty spaces. He says three died in his service. One > was too cowardly to show up (Karakoff, since he fled that night?), > one has left forever, he will die of course (Snape, since he left to > be loyal to Dumbledore), and one at Hogwarts now doing his bidding > (Crouch, Jr.). Didn't Hagrid tell Harry that when Voldemort decided > to kill someone he usually did it, except in the case of Harry? > Sure, Snape is spying and has done some working, evidently, to get > back in the good graces of Voldy to get the job done, but one > wonders, is this possible? Hannah: Well, I don't want Snape to die, so I'm biased. But I do think he'll survive until book 7. He may well die in that book, towards the end. But Snape is an important character, because of his antagonistic relationship with Harry. There isn't really anyone else who can take on that function. Killing him before book 7 would seriously affect the balance in that book, in my opinion. For the same reason, I doubt that JKR will kill Ron or Hermione before the final book. As other posters have pointed out, we don't know for sure that the 'one who must die' is Snape. I've heard various theories about it being other people, including Fudge and Bagman. I personally think it *is* Snape, and when LV made that commment, he assumed Snape had 'left him forever.' But later that night, Snape returned to him, having been sent off by DD in the hospital wing scene, armed with his excuse for how he convinced DD that he was a spy/ how he convinced DD to lie for him. Thus LV forgave him (no doubt influenced by the usefulness of having a supporter working at Hogwarts) and changed his mind about killing him. Thus I think that Snape is relatively safe for now. Until book 7. Hannah From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 12:38:57 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:38:57 -0000 Subject: CoS. Question regarding Snape mentioning polyjuice and book name with formula. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125546 vmonte: I was looking for a reference in CoS when I came across something that I think is odd. _________ Page 159, Cos, U.S. edition: "What we'd need to do is to get inside the Slytherin common room and ask Malfoy a few questions without him realizing it's us." "But that's impossible," Harry said as Ron laughed. "No, it's not," said Hermione. "All we'd need would be some Polyjuice Potion." "What's that?" said Ron and Harry together. "Snape mentioned it in class a few weeks ago--" "D'you think we've got nothing better to do in Potions than listen to Snape?" muttered Ron. Page 160: "But getting hold of the recipe will be very difficult. Snape said it was in a book called Moste Potente Potions and it's bound to be in the Restricted Section of the library." vmonte: Snape doesn't show the students how to make the potion, but he does tell them where they can find the potion, interesting. _______ Page 164: Hermione opened Moste Potente Potions carefully, and the three of them bent over the damp-spotted pages. vmonte: Damp-spotted? Am I reading this wrong? Shouldn't it read dry-spotted? Did someone else recently use this book, getting some of the pages wet? If so, who? __________ Page 188: "If I ever find out who threw this," Snape whispered, "I shall make sure that person is expelled." Harry arranged his face into what he hoped was a puzzled expression. Snape was looking right at him, and the bell that rang ten minutes later could not have been more welcome. "He knew it was me," Harry told Ron and Hermione as they hurried back to Moaning Myrtle's bathroom. "I could tell." vmonte: So, if Snape knew, why didn't Harry get in trouble? Vivian From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 5 13:04:02 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:04:02 -0000 Subject: Ron as Half Blood Prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125547 Sherry wrote: > I have been rereading the OOP and came across a line I didn't > remember from first reading. Or maybe it just hit me differently. > But when Harry is dreaming he dreams of Ron and Ginny in Crowns. Has this been discussed before? I can't find it if it has. Would like to open it for discussion if it hasn't and would like a place to find it if it has. thanks Hannah: I think it has been discussed, and some people read a lot of meaning into Harry's dreams (with good reasoning). I personally don't believe that all of his dreams mean something significant. The problem I would have with Ron being the half-blood prince is that Ron is most definitely a pureblood. Unless of course you take the 'half-blood prince' title to mean 'prince *of* the halfbloods' rather than 'prince who *is* a half blood.' Hannah From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 5 13:24:34 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:24:34 -0000 Subject: Percy and other Weasleys. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125548 > Alla wrote: > I don't think that Percy is a lost cause, not at all at least at > that point, but I believe that he is the one who has to do major > soul searching if he wants to reconcile with his family, NOT the > other way around. > > Molley replied: > I don't know at this point if the Weasley family would accept his attempts to reconcile were he to make any. Percy has been hateful, arrogant, pompous and hurtful and while the whole family feels the sting, I think Molly has been hurt the worst. The other kids have not only had to deal with their own emotions regarding Percy's rejection of the family, but they've been there to witness their parent's heartbreak first hand. I hope I'm wrong here, but I'm afraid when Percy left the way he did, he locked the door, threw away the key and burned the bridge that got him there. > The ONLY circumstance in which I see Percy being accepted back into the fold except by his mother and (probably with reluctance) his father is if he was acting under an imperious curse from LV or Pettigrew. Even then, I don't know that his siblings will ever entirely trust or accept him again. Hannah now: I think the opposite. The Weasleys are a loving family, and love forgives everything. In OotP we see Mrs Weasley trying to reach out to Percy, by sending him a Christmas present for instance. She is upset when it gets sent back. I think the Weasleys will be glad to accept Percy back, if and when he sees the error of his ways. OK, he'll need to apologise, and things will be a bit awkward, of course they will. But the Weasleys are not a family who will shut a son out, even though he did have a big row with them and storm off. Percy will have more trouble convincing his siblings, I do agree, but they will come round when they see that it's the best way to keep the family together and that it makes their parents happy. Hannah From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 13:37:24 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 05:37:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Opposite of Gryffindor? - Nature of Sorting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050305133724.61666.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125549 --- Hannah wrote: > Do you think GL was a Gryffindor, Magda? I've always seen him as > the stereotypical Slytherin. Ambitious, unafraid to use whatever > means necessary to get what he wants, cunning even if he's not > clever (and Crabbe and Goyle are living proof that Slytherins > aren't necessarily clever). I suppose Lockhart may have *asked* > to be in Gryffindor because he perceived it as having a better > image, which could explain him being placed there. Yes I do. I don't believe you can ascribe all the Good Things to one house and all the Not As Good Or Even Bad Things to the other three. However flattering to Gryffindors the idea might be. And I don't believe the Sorting Hat lets you ask where you want to go. What would be the point of the Sorting Hat in the first place, then? Magda __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 13:40:18 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 05:40:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape the next to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050305134018.62944.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125550 --- librarybookgrl wrote: > > I've been wondering who JKR will kill off next, since she admitted > on her site that she will continue to kill characters off. I think he'll last until Book 7, then snuff it about halfway through just in time for Dumbledore to give Harry his last bit of Important Educational Learning Experience advice before the preparations for the Big Confrontation at Hogwarts. (Yes, I'm convinced that the final battle will be at Hogwarts. Details at 11.) Magda __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 13:53:00 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:53:00 -0000 Subject: Couple of questions after CoS reread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125551 Hannah now: Yes, my argument does fall down a bit there. Maybe McGonagall is wrong in her assumption that the 'monster' would have waited around to finish off Colin. But they definitely do *think* there is a risk that someone might try to kill those petrified; 'We're taking no more chances... no, I'm sorry, there's every chance the attacker might come back to finish these people off.' Madam Pomfrey, p197 Cos paperback UK ed. vmonte responds: Page 180, CoS, U.S. Edition: "Another attack," said Dumbledore. "Minerva found him on the stairs." snip "Yes," said Professor McGonagall. "But I shudder to think...If Albus hadn't been on the way downstairs for hot chocolate--who knows what might have--" I think that what Minerva was saying here is not that she believed the basilisk would have finished off Colin if Dumbledore hadn't come along, but that it would have killed her if Dumbledore hadn't come along. The quote implies that she found Colin moments after he was petrified. Colin was saved because he was looking through his camera, but Minerva would not have been as lucky, she would have died. So, at the time that Minerva found Colin, DD (at the same time) was coming down the stairs. The basilisk heard DD's footsteps and left before seeing and killing Minerva. Vivian From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 14:12:26 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 06:12:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Opposite of Gryffindor? - Nature of Sorting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050305141226.79135.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125552 > bboyminn: > > I reformated your paragraphs slightly. I'm confused how you can > interpret "...we will always ... save our own necks..." as anything > other than saving yourself rather than others. He, in the context > of the book and that scene, is saying that he understands Harry > running away and saving himself, which implies leaving other > behind. This is Phineas' entire paragraph, in Chapter 23 OOTP: "Not running away, no," said Harry shortly.... "I thought," said Phineas Nigellus, stroking his pointed beard, "that to belong in Gryffindor house you were supposed to be *brave* [italicized]. It looks to me as though you would have been better off in my own house. We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." Then he passes on Dumbledore's instruction for Harry to "stay where you are" and there's a yelling match. As you say, we have to consider the context. Yes, I suppose the obvious interpretation of "save our own necks" would be that PN is commenting on how Harry's running away would fit into Slytherin's supposed characteristics. But I don't believe Phineas would site approvingly behaviour that was not admirable, since he's a pretty house-proud portrait. He's playing on the Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry thing, whereby to a member of those houses the worst thing would be to ascribe other-housely attributes to them. (PN doesn't know, I assume, about the Harry-Sorting Hat debate.) And he's using the terms a Gryffindor would use to reinforce that rivalry. But mostly PN is using some reverse psychology on Harry here (and enjoying it tremendously). He's mocking Harry's motivation ("this is no cowardly flight...you're being *noble*.") in a way that will cause Harry to stop what he's doing on his volition. Just to forbid a teen to do something (as Dumbledore does via PN) won't work. PN is doing his little bit in advance of passing on orders to ensure that Harry will be more likely to actually obey. So, to sum up, I believe that PN's comments about "saving our own necks" refers to the Gryffindor view of a Slytherin's courage to segue into the immediate context getting Harry to stop what he's planning to do, that is to leave 12GP. Just to make myself completely clear: I don't believe that PN would refer to Slytherins "saving our own necks" if he were taking part in a symposium on house characteristics. Magda __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 14:42:54 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:42:54 -0000 Subject: Opposite of Gryffindor? - Nature of Sorting In-Reply-To: <20050305133724.61666.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125553 Magda wrote: And I don't believe the Sorting Hat lets you ask where you want to go. What would be the point of the Sorting Hat in the first place, then? vmonte responds: I don't think it asks you either. I do, however, think that what you value is a strong indicator of where you will go. So, even if the hat believes that Harry would do well in Slytherin, in the end it puts Harry where his values are. I think that Hermione pretty much tells us what she values in SS/PS. Page 287, U.S. edition: "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things--friendship and bravery and--" So, even though Hermione is at first glance a "Ravenclaw type," she values bravery more. The hat, therefore, puts her in Gryffindor. Besides, putting Hermione in Ravenclaw would not foster the right atmosphere to help her grow into a more rounded person. I think a similar thing is happening with Luna, but in reverse. Luna is just as brave as a Gryffindor, but she probably values intelligence. The hat knows that to make Luna a more rounded person, she needs to temper her emotion driven personality by hanging around people who are more logic driven. (It may actually do Hermione and Luna some good to hang around each other more by the way. I bet Luna could help Hermione with the elf movement.) So, if the hat sorts you into the house that brings out the best in you, it will put you where you can meet your full potential. I'm hoping that the hat saw something latent in Percy, and that is why it put him in Gryffindor. Perhaps Percy will remember what his family and house stand for. Vivian From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 14:54:24 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:54:24 -0000 Subject: Opposite of Gryffindor? - Nature of Sorting In-Reply-To: <20050305141226.79135.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125554 Magda wrote a lot of stuff I agree with, but I have a question about one teeny part: (PN doesn't know, I assume, about the Harry-Sorting Hat > debate.) Ginger: I wonder if PN doesn't know about it. In Ch. 12 of CoS, Harry is sitting in DD's office and tries on the sorting hat a second time. It says that the portraits all seem to be asleep, but we have also known them to fake it (especially PN). The conversation is short, and probably goes on entirely in Harry's head, but there is the possibility that after Harry left, the portraits asked the hat, "What was that all about?" This got me thinking, and leads me to my question: Do you (as in all of you) think that Harry got the particular room at #12 because the portrait was in there (or that the portrait was put in that room) so that PN could keep an ear, if not an eye, on Harry for DD? Ginger, trying not to think how potentially embarrasing that could have been. Although not as bad as having Peter in your bed for a few years. From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 5 15:21:14 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:21:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The theory of Harry Potter symbolising the Path of Alchemical Liberation. Message-ID: <20050305152114.85510.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125555 I am replying to: Post 124795 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 From: "Geoff Bannister" Post 124797 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 From: "cat_kind" Post 124798 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 From: "Tonks" Post 124813 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 From: "hogsheadbarmaid" First of all my thanks to all four members for responding to my post 124786 Theory of Liberation (was: John the Baptist again) I love hogsheadbarmaids post. Brilliant! Quite brilliant. Theres nothing like a good sense of humour to put things back into perspective. Many thanks for that. Hogsheadbarmaid: And frankly a knock-down-drag-out bar fight can be highly entertaining. And it can feel good to lay out your argument in absolute terms and let the chips fall where they may! Hans: Sorry everyone, but I have no intention of engaging in a brawl. My only goal here is to testify of my recognition of Harry Potter as being a new version of the timeless Path of Liberation. Im not even going to debate in the sense of wanting to prove Im right. Im just going to answer some questions and correct some, what in my opinion are, misconceptions. One of the most sacred characteristics of the Lohans, i.e. those who have become liberated, is absolute non-violence in every possible way. I believe I should honour and uphold their principle as much as possible. My job is simply to show those who are interested the exactness with which Harry Potter conforms to the teachings of liberation. I do not want to persuade people who are committed to a particular religious philosophy that they should leave their faith and turn to the Path of Liberation. In any case this would be futile because this Path can be gone only by those who long for liberation with all their heart, with all their soul, and with all their mind. This is so beautifully illustrated in Harry Potter by Harrys struggle to master the Patronus. The stag symbolises a souls longing for liberation and Harry has to work very hard for many months, as we all know. If someone pointed out to me the Path of the Sangha or the Taoist Path in Harry Potter I would be very grateful. That wouldnt mean Id necessarily agree with the teachings of that Path itself, but I would be most grateful to KNOW that that particular Path is hidden in Harry Potter. So to sum it up: Im just addressing myself to those people who have open minds and are interested in the spiritual path Jo might be propounding in Harry Potter. If people get upset at my comparisons may I invite them to press delete whenever one of my emails arrives? The fact that some members keep saying Im propagating heretical teachings proves to me they do not understand the point of these posts. I just want to expose people to the truth: not the truth of the teachings themselves, but the truth of whether Harry Potter is BASED on those teachings. Reject the teachings of liberation by all means, call them heretical, satanic or occult or whatever you like. Thats not the point. The point is: does Harry Potter contain them or not? Quite simple. Geoff: In the 2nd century, Gnosticism was a heresy which taught that only people with "special knowledge" who had gone through initiation into the cult could approach God and they were considered to be special a cut above the hoi polloi. Hans: I am quite convinced Geoff really, genuinely believes this. However Im sure 99% of the members of this group know and understand that history is written by the victors. Tom Harpur, an Anglican theologian and Professor of Greek and New Testament studies, proves in his book, The Pagan Christ, that the Gnostics were persecuted and suppressed by the early Christian Church in its battle to gain supremacy over the wide range of religious communities that populated the western world between 200 and 300 AD. Im not blaming modern Christians for what the founding fathers of the church did 1700 years ago. However in order to be honourable and honest I think modern Christians should be able to face the fact that the early church stamped out many groups and many teachings which it saw as dangerous to its rule. The teachings of the Gnostics were and are (Im a member of a modern Gnostic group) the very teachings which Jo is using as the foundations to Harry Potter. I can say here with deep certainty and sincerity: Harry Potter is pure Gnostic literature. Harry is in fact going through those very same initiations that Geoff mentions. Please consider my essay part of this post. It can be found under Harry Potter: Christian Rosycross in Jeans, in the essays in the group files. Going through those initiations, i.e.. SELF-initiations, is extremely hard work, as Jo shows in each part of Harry Potter. Snape thinks Harry considers himself a cut above the hoi polloi. However we know Harry doesnt consider himself that at all. He is in fact very modest and does what he has to, not because of arrogance but because his conscience tells him to. The Gnostics do not consider themselves a cut above the hoi polloi either but go the Path because their heart is filled with longing for God and compassion for suffering humanity. This is exactly in accordance with what Geoff says is the most important commandment. (Geoff: One day, Jesus was asked which commandment was the greatest. His reply was to love God with all your soul strength and mind and added that the second was to love your neighbour (any person who needs your support or help) as you would love yourself.) As you may remember Ive often quoted Psalm 42 as typifying the thirst of the Gnostic Christian for the Living Water from the River of God. The reason that self-initiation is such hard work is that humanity has sunk so low after the fall from the Kingdom of Heaven. The reason the world is in such a mess is because we human beings have lost touch with God. Our minds do not understand what God wants. We are blind and deaf to the Divine Plan. Voldemort lives in each one of us and wants to keep it that way. Harry is the new soul that is born when we begin to long to return to God. In book 7 Harry will defeat Voldemort and so his consciousness will open once again to the Divine Plan. This will not make him arrogant or superior but will fill him with a tremendous feeling of humility and compassion. As Ive stated several times, such a Gnostic Alchemist will then be faced with the choice of staying behind to help his fellow human beings who are wandering around in ignorance, or go on to ever greater intimacy with God. Im fairly sure Harry will stay behind, and possibly take Hagrids job, but it could go either way. Being a Gnostic doesnt mean that only certain people can approach God. The Path of Liberation is open to everyone who is willing to make the effort. All it needs is a Lily and a Stag. The Lily is the spark which God Himself has planted in the seekers heart, and the Stag is the longing to return to God. Indeed, as Geoff says, God so loved the world that he sent his only son so that whoever believed in him would not perish but have everlasting life. Each one of us has His only Son asleep in our heart. Harry Potter shows how to awaken Him and bring us everlasting life with the Father of Lights. Tonks: You would not find one Biblical scholar in the world that would agree with the statement that the Bible points to the same path as your theory of liberation. It points to a path of liberation, yes. But the path is not the same as you have suggested. Hans: May I suggest you read Biblical scholar and (emeritus) Professor of New Testament Tom Harpur? See www.tomharpur.com. Tom doesnt call it liberation but his message is that of liberating the Inner Christ. Tonks: The New Testament is the Good News that the path is open to all who follow Jesus. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6.) He did not say that we can do it on our own without him. So I don't think that you can use the New Testament as proof for a process that does not involve Jesus, since He is what the New Testament is about. Hans: Youre absolutely right. Its impossible to go the Path of Liberation without Jesus: the Inner Christ. Just like Harry Potter, the New Testament was given to humanity by the Masters of Compassion to teach the Path of Liberation. Jesus, or Harry, or Horus, or Briar Rose, is the way, the truth and the life. Within the heart of every seeker is the Son of God without whom it is impossible to have eternal life. Tonks: You say that 99.9% of the people of the world would not agree with your theory of liberation. I would have to guess that JKR is part of that percentage. She is a Christian. Yes she mentions Alchemy, but not because she holds to the Rosicrucian believes. She even said in an interview that she was a Christian and if people knew what she believed they could figure out what the books were about. Hans: In the interview youre quoting she didnt say she was a Christian. She was talking about if she believes in God, and she said she does. That could be interpreted to mean shes a Moslem, a Jew, a Rosicrucian, a Gnostic, a Manichaean, etc. This is the exact quote: "Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling catkind: Okay, now we're getting somewhere. So Hans believes that lots of different myths/religions contain analogies to a "Path of Liberation", and that the HP books do too. Possibly even that said myths/religions/ HP books are inspired by this Path, whether at a subconscious level, or deliberately by the authors, or by divine inspiration. Maybe I, for one, am getting confused because Hans is at the same time explaining this Path with reference to the other mythic/religious analogies and with respect to the Harry Potter story. Hans - is there somewhere I can look up a description of this Path without all the similes? It'd be particularly helpful to have a glossary of what if anything you mean by things like alchemical, etheric, astral, microcosmic etc., which you don't seem to be using in the traditional sense. Hans: I understand what youre saying. There are several ways you could familiarise yourself with this Path. All my main posts to HPFGU since April 2003 are also in the message archive of the Yahoo group: Harry Potter for Seekers: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotterforseekers/messages. If you read my messages in chronological order you will see a gradual development and you should be able to get it alright. The posts of the group are open to the public. As its a very small group all my messages are close together and easy to find. See also http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/messages/15821 You could also visit http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com/ which has my essay and some explanations. Jan van Rijckenborgh is a person who has explained the Path in twentieth century language. His book The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross explains the Path very clearly. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-titleid=396608&ve-field=none/qid=1109971036/sr=12-22/102-4509378-8022564. If you search in Amazon for Rijckenborgh you will find all his books. My essay also has references for further reading. To understand what I mean by etheric, astral etc. read http://groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotterforseekers/messages/566 (The Structure of the Universe). This will explain a lot. I do use these words in the traditional sense, as also used by the Theosophists, the Anthroposophists etc. But feel free to ask. By alchemical I mean that our whole mortal being, consisting of flesh, soul and spirit, is transmuted and transfigured into one of eternal substance, eternal soul and eternal spirit. By microcosm I mean the whole human being, including the higher self, the lower self, the physical body, the invisible bodies, the soul and the spirit. Catkind: Or is this Path something that is only defined as an accumulation of all these myths? I'd have thought it's not much use to have a John the Baptist-parallel in HP if you don't already have a JtB-parallel in the Path of Liberation. It would probably offend the Christians present less if we skip the Christianity/Path analogies and go straight to the Path/HP ones. In any case, if you want to show that HP is inspired by the Path and not by, say, Christianity, you'd have to find places where the Path matches Harry Potter /better/ than it matches Christianity or other traditions. This is never going to work if the parallels are drawn through Christianity. Hans: If I compared Harry Potter to the Path of Liberation without referring to other parallels you wouldnt believe me. Youd say I was making it up as I go along. Thats what I think youll say, anyway. It is precisely by pointing out the Path as taught in other, well known literature, such as the Bible, that I can prove Im not making it up as I go along. Im still making discoveries every day and these are consistent with what Ive said before, but also with the Bible etc. Yes it would make it much simpler if I compared Harry Potter only to, say The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross. However my point of view is that Liberation is an alchemical process that takes place according to natural laws which are just as universal and inexorable as, say, the law of gravity or the law of the three states of matter. These laws are not written laws but are inherent in the very atoms and forces God has created. As you know, we can study these laws and write books about them, but they themselves are not written. Just as scientists study natural laws by means of empirical science, so people can study the spiritual laws by means of spiritual science. Tom Harpur writes that God has planted the story of liberation as an archetype in the subconscious mind of every human being. If anyone raises his/her mind to great spiritual heights they can transfer this archetype to the conscious mind and read it, so to speak. This is why the story of liberation can be found in every nation in every age. Throughout the millennia, or so I believe, people have studied the laws of alchemical liberation and have taught them to others either orally or in writing. It is essential, I believe, to point out to you that Harry Potter is one of many attempts to teach liberation. I am trying to emphasise the universality of Harry Potter. This is because I dont believe Jo is basing Harry Potter on any particular book, but on the natural laws themselves, while at the same time referring to the teachings of others. In my essay I point out that I believe Harry potter is part of a movement leading towards a universal world religion which teaches the birth of the inner Christ in all seekers. I believe people like Tom Harpur are also helping this movement. There are others as well, such as Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy. Why use so many Christian analogies? I believe the Brotherhood of the Masters of Compassion (my nomenclature) has given the Christian gospels to humanity as a road-map to liberation. They were given to all of humanity and do not belong to any particular group. The gospels are wonderful guide books to the divine laws of alchemy if you dont take them literally. They were always meant to be understood symbolically, as applying to the Inner Christ. However in its bid for dominance the early church imposed a literal interpretation on them. Instead of people being allowed to use them to give birth to their inner Christ the church imposed the teachings of the birth of Christ as a solely historical event. They nailed the teachings of liberation to the calendar. The church said you had to belong to the only church of God or your soul would be in jeopardy etc. The Inquisition wasnt called that yet in those days. Just a short quote from the back cover of Jesus and the Goddess by Freke and Gandy: Why were the secret teachings of the original Christians brutally suppressed by the Roman Church? [] Because they show that the gospel story is a spiritual allegory encoding a profound philosophy that leads to Gnosis mystical enlightenment. Because they undermine all external authority by directly revealing the Christ within. Because they have the power to turn the world inside-out and transform life into an exploration of consciousness. What Im saying is that the teachings in the gospels were in fact taken by the early church and made out to be their sole property. I deny ownership of the gospels and I feel I can and should compare Harry Potter to the gospels as well as the Alchemical Wedding or whatever else I can see parallels with. And Im saying the above three reasons could equally be applied to Harry Potter. Take out the word they and substitute Harry Potter. Why are many evangelical or fundamental Christians (Abanes etc.) so opposed to Harry Potter? Because, to paraphrase Freke & Gandy: "Harry Potter undermines all external authority by directly revealing the Christ within." Why else do you think Jo makes Harry have such a tendency to break rules? Catkind: Then another question: Why get so excited about it all? If as Hans says the Path has analogies in all these many myths/ religions, and then presumably in all the other stories which are inspired by said myths/religions, then yet another series with the same analogies is hardly something to write home about. New religions get started when there is a new message, not when the same old message is repeated in a new medium. Hans: Why get so excited? Because Liberation is the most wonderful, ecstatic and rapturous thing there is. There is nothing more glorious, blissful or heavenly than that. When Gods Son wakes up in your heart you have God inside you! He (gradually) lifts you above all worries, all suffering, all anguish. To have God wake up inside your heart is like having a spiritual orgasm, so intense, so heart-warming, so pure, there are no words to describe it. Every day you feel the Inner Christ growing in strength and power, in beauty, in radiant spirituality. And every day you experience a greater compassion for humanity, and for human beings who do not understand they have a Lily in their heart which can give birth to Harry. Why get so excited? I cant STOP myself getting more excited about Harry Potter every day! The story of liberation is the most beautiful story there is. Harry Potter tells this story; thats why so many millions of people love it. They are subconsciously touched by its power. Harry Potter is both a new religion and an old one. Its old in the sense that its the timeless teachings of liberation. Its new in the sense that millions of people are absorbing it in a new way unconsciously. At some time in the future, when the Path of Liberation is taught overtly, with less symbolism, it will be a very short jump indeed for people to make the connection from Harry Potter to liberation. Why get so excited? Are you kidding? The rapture that hits you when the Inner God is born is so exciting, so wonderful and so loving that it just wants to share itself with others. The Love of the God within is not for keeping for oneself. Its essence, its purpose, is to give itself away. Read 1 Corinthians 13. Why get so excited? In this prison of suffering, with hundreds of millions of people living in grinding poverty, with all the terrorism, slaughter, drug abuse, human slavery, hunger, cancer, child pornography, you name it, there is a solution! That is the way hidden in Harry Potter, the way of alchemical transformation leading to total liberation from all those things and more. Why get to excited? To paraphrase Freke and Gandy again: Because Harry Potter has the power to turn the world inside-out and transform life into an exploration of consciousness. Why do I compare Harry Potter to the gospel so often? Freke and Gandy: Because Harry Potter shows that the gospel story is a spiritual allegory encoding a profound philosophy that leads to Gnosis mystical enlightenment. -o0o- I want to finish this post by going back to a post I made shortly after the birth of David, Jos son. I said there that David is the Old Testament version of Harry Potter and so it was a joke on Jos part to say David had nothing to do with Harry Potter. Do you remember that? I quoted Revelation 22:16: I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star. I mentioned that this referred to Sirius. I was immediately howled down by people who told me that Venus is the morning star. A strange coincidence happened a month or two ago when a friend gave me Tom Harpurs book to look at. I opened it at random and this happened to be page 83. I couldnt believe my eyes. Like the star in the east of the gospels, Sirius, the morning star in Egypt, heralded the birth of Horus. That gave me goose bumps! When Harry was born, Sirius was made his God-Father, a very crafty way of saying the same thing. The next thing I saw on the same page was: Horus was transfigured on a mountain; Jesus took Peter, James and John into a high mountain and was transfigured before them. Who were Sirius friends in Harry Potter? Peter Pettigrew, James Potter and Remus JOHN Lupin. When I mentioned this to this group last time I was again howled down by shouts of coincidence! I want to thank sincerely the member of this group who first alerted us to this fact, as it wasnt I. I thumbed randomly through The Pagan Christ again and saw this on page 69: He (God) is the primeval Potter who turned men and gods into being out of his hands. There we have it. Horus Potter the ancient Egyptian mythical hero who was turned up again thousands of years later as Harry Potter. Thanks Jo. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 15:30:01 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 15:30:01 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks and Mundungus In-Reply-To: <20050305011402.40333.qmail@web52606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125556 > Adesa wrote: > > Now I'm sure this has probably been discussed here before, so forgive > me for misssing it in the archives. But JKR has always been *very* > careful about her word choice. The similarities of Crookshanks' and > Dung's descriptions can't be coincidental, can they? What does this > mean? > Jina adds: > I also noticed some similarities too. Although at first I thought that Crookshanks was and animagus (that would be he could be Mundungus) but they JK said that Crookshanks was not an animagus, but it is all very interesting....the selection of JK's wording. Now Ginger (no relation to Crookshanks or Dung): There have been questions about whether or not the two were the same, but they were together in #12 Grimmauld in OoP. (This is not an original thought on my part. I believe the first person to post that was "Jenny" jspolita in message #63961 on 23 June, 2003. But I could be wrong.) So that lets out the animagus theory. On to their similarities: They both have ginger hair and are bandy- legged. It is odd that JKR uses an unusual expression like "bandy- legged" twice, and both times in connection with ginger hair. I have to admit I have no clue what the connection is. Crookshanks is part-Kneazle (per JKR) and Mrs Figg breeds them. Dung and Mrs Figg seem to know each other beyond guarding Harry. That is an assumption on my part, but I just can't see beaning someone with a bag of cat food unless you've been more than just formally introduced. The only thing that could lead to is that Dung is Crookshanks' father, and that's just too odd. Ginger, who was looking through old posts and found one that said "I can't wait for book 4 so all our questions will be answered." From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 5 15:30:37 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 15:30:37 -0000 Subject: Opposite of Gryffindor? - Nature of Sorting In-Reply-To: <20050305133724.61666.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125557 Hannah originally: > > Do you think GL was a Gryffindor, Magda? I've always seen him as > > the stereotypical Slytherin. Ambitious, unafraid to use whatever > > means necessary to get what he wants, cunning even if he's not > > clever (and Crabbe and Goyle are living proof that Slytherins > > aren't necessarily clever). I suppose Lockhart may have *asked* > > to be in Gryffindor because he perceived it as having a better > > image, which could explain him being placed there. > >Magda replied: > Yes I do. I don't believe you can ascribe all the Good Things to one > house and all the Not As Good Or Even Bad Things to the other three. > However flattering to Gryffindors the idea might be. > > And I don't believe the Sorting Hat lets you ask where you want to > go. What would be the point of the Sorting Hat in the first place, > then? Hannah: I don't know what the point would be, the whole system baffles me. I don't believe that you can ascribe all bad things to one house either, and that's exactly what I go on to say in the rest of my original post. I'm not saying that because Gilderoy Lockhart isn't a very nice character, he must have been in Slytherin, the 'house of evil.' I'm saying that, in my opinion, Lockhart is the most stereotypical Slytherin - as the sorting hat describes them, anyway - of anyone we encounter. More so than Draco Malfoy, even. Slytherins are ambitious and will use any means to achieve their ends. That is how the Sorting hat describes them. And that is the predominant feature of Lockhart. He has a burning desire to be famous, and has no qualms about permanently disabling wizards who have done no wrong in order to achieve it. Lockhart is not brave, not in the way that Gryffindors are seen as being brave, anyway. So if Lockhart was placed in Gryffindor - and I agree that there is supporting evidence for that theory - I would assume it was because he valued bravery very highly, or because he wanted to be in Gryffindor because it would suit his brave image. There is also some evidence that the Sorting hat *does* let itself be influnenced by people's opinions. 'It is our choices...' and all that. According to DD, that is why the hat put Harry in Gryffindor. It does seem to rather undermine the purpose of having a hat at all, but perhaps choice is just one element of the process. And of course the Muggle-born students who know nothing about the houses might not have any idea where they want to go, so would need more conventional sorting. I'm not saying that you don't have a valid argument that Lockhart could be a Gryffindor; I also think he may have been one. I just think that it's strange, given that he *appears* to be a typical Slytherin. And no, not because all Slytherins are bad. Ugh. This is just what I hate about the whole Sorting system. As soon as we try to discuss it logically, inconsistencies appear. Hannah From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 5 15:33:09 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:33:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Hermione (2) Message-ID: <20050305153309.45458.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125558 There are many different ways to symbolise the Path to eternal life. Just look how many myths, legends, fairy tales, heroic epics and gospels there are that tell the same story in different ways. Hence I find it difficult to predict exactly how Hermione will end up. So far Harry Potter has followed "The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross" fairly closely. Will it go on like that, or will it depart from that track? I love the way John Granger has quite boldly stated his predictions for the last three books in "Hidden Key to Harry Potter" in a very jovial and laid-back way. I'm taking his example and saying, "Here's my guesses, but don't keep reminding me for the next 30 years about how wrong I was". I still have that funny intuitive inclination to see the trio as the Half-Blood Prince. As I've explained in detail before, HRH = His Royal Highness, and the amount of "pure-blood" in the trio is 1. This would mean the trio would end up as one person. This makes sense in terms of an alchemical wedding, but not as a children's story. The other clue I can't put out of my mind is that in book 5 Harry dreams of Ron and Hermione wearing crowns. In "The Alchemical Wedding" a young king and queen sit in a circle of six with a crown over their heads. Maybe it's a red herring, but I find this a strong argument for seeing at least Ron and Hermione ending up as royals. Let's just briefly see who does what in "The Alchemical Wedding". All three kings and three queens are decapitated, but not Christian Rosycross. However he "passes through the Gate of Saturn" symbolically by playing a vital role in the revivification of the reborn king and queen in the eighth floor of the Tower of Olympus. The bodies of the six monarchs are used in a long alchemical process that ends up with a white clayey substance that is poured into the moulds of two tiny children, a boy and a girl. These are fed on the blood of a bird and they grow quickly to adult size human bodies. Then the Spirit is led into them by the "Old Man in the Tower" (Dumbledore obviously), and they come back to life. Just after this the gate keeper complains about someone seeing Lady Venus, and this is when Christian Rosycross confesses he's the one. What is the meaning of this symbolism? The three royal couples personify the three aspects of the consciousness: the flawed good side (Lupin), the bad side (Snape), and the new consciousness. As you can see, this means that Snape and Lupin are each equivalent to a royal couple. Why? Because "The Alchemical Wedding" symbolises the three aspects in terms of them having a positive and negative side, i.e. an active and passive role. The male here symbolises the creative role and the female the receptive and birth-giving role. Perhaps we'll find out Snape and Lupin have wives somewhere; who knows? The death of the six monarchs symbolises the complete termination of the old and new aspects of the consciousness. This doesn't mean the candidate for alchemical transformation dies or falls asleep. It's a symbolical way of saying that the consciousness of the candidate for liberation is totally renewed and nothing of the old consciousness is left. A new, omniscient, omnipresent and everlasting divine consciousness is born. The new king symbolises the Spirit living in the reborn Son of God, the queen symbolises the reborn Soul living in complete unity with the Spirit, and Christian Rosycross symbolises the personality, the lower self, which is the perfect vehicle for the expression of the united Spirit-Soul. To pour the symbolic patterns of "The Alchemical Wedding" into Harry Potter, here's what could happen. In the final stages Lupin and Snape sacrifice themselves for Harry (or the Half-Blood Prince). Ron and Hermione are both executed. Harry passes through the Gate of Saturn. This could be after a real death (since he predicts his own decapitation in book 4) but I'm inclined to think he won't die physically, but pass through the archway as he is. Then a very big BLANK BLANK BLANK. Something happens behind the Gate of Saturn, and somehow Harry, Ron and Hermione are united into one "Half-Blood Prince", with Sirius deeply involved. Hermione would symbolise the Spirit, Harry the Soul, and Ron the personality. Then, as I mentioned previously, I think Harry or HRH will come back to the muggle world somehow and take Hagrid's place. Dobby will be at his side, and perhaps Harry or HRH will liberate Nearly Headless Nick. Perhaps the Deathday Party was a clue to how Harry will liberate Sir Nick. He always wanted to be decapitated properly, didn't he? Well perhaps Harry will do the job properly, though with a wand rather than an axe. Nick this time will face "death" without fear, and he'll be able to charge off into the distance, finally able to join the Headless Hunt! That's getting right away from Hermione, but I just thought of it and got carried away. Getting back to Hermione, I realise all the above sounds extremely vague and doesn't really convey any clear images. But that's the best I can do. Perhaps after July 16th I'll be able to do a better prediction. Anyway predictions are fun only as long as they're predictions. If I were quite certain, by clairvoyantly looking Jo's mind for instance, you wouldn't want to hear me, would you? "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 15:40:44 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 15:40:44 -0000 Subject: Lockhart - Gryffindor? Was: Re: Opposite of Gryffindor? - Nature of Sorting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125559 Hannah originally: Do you think GL was a Gryffindor, Magda? I've always seen him as the stereotypical Slytherin. Magda replied: Yes I do. I don't believe you can ascribe all the Good Things to one house and all the Not As Good Or Even Bad Things to the other three. However flattering to Gryffindors the idea might be. Alla: I really disagree that Lockhart was Gryffindor for one simple reason ( and not because Gryffindors could not have negative qualities, on the contrary). I simply don't see Lockhart showing any form of courage anywhere in the books. I am not speaking about positive courage only . Could you show me where he displays "reckless bravado", call it whatever you like. And without courage person cannot be Gryffindor, right? As we know, he did not do all those brave deeds he wrote about in his books, and when the courage is needed from him ( to go to Chambers) he runs away as typical Slytherin does to save his own neck. :o) Could you show me some canonical example of Lockhart courage, please? Just my opinion of course, Alla. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 5 15:41:39 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 15:41:39 -0000 Subject: Phineas' portrait( wasRe: Nature of Sorting) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125560 > Ginger wrote: > This got me thinking, and leads me to my question: Do you (as in all of you) think that Harry got the particular room at #12 because the portrait was in there (or that the portrait was put in that room) so that PN could keep an ear, if not an eye, on Harry for DD? Hannah: I think PN's portrait being in the room was no coincidence. Whether Harry was given the room because of the portrait being there, or that PN's portrait was placed in that room when it was decided Harry would sleep there, I don't know. But I'm sure that DD keeps a much closer eye on Harry than it would seem - doesn't he say as much himself at the end of OotP? Having Phineas there proved extremely useful at Christmas, when Harry considered running away. He could also have monitored Harry's dreams and his behaviour in general. Suppose Harry had been literally possessed, like Ginny was in CoS. PN could have reported it to DD very quickly, hopefully before anyone else in 12GP got hurt. DD was afraid to have too much contact with Harry directly in OotP. By using Phineas, he was able to have a close connection to Harry without Harry himself - and therefore possibly LV - realising it. Hannah From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 16:06:03 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:06:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy and other Weasleys. Was: Weasley types. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050305160604.32851.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125561 --- vmonte wrote: > > > >Joe in SoFla wrote: > > I don't think--and I may be a crowd of one on > this--that the twins > were particularly HORRIBLE to Percy. Yes, they > teased him and yes, > they made fun of him, but I don't know that what > they did to him > rose to the standard of an "attack." I guess it's just different for different people. Feeling embarassed and humiliated is something I dread. I've been picked on and cried myself to sleep everynight for a few months in junior high. The way Fred and George treat Percy (particularly in the later books) is horrible to me. If I lived with them, or even went to school with them I would spend my life trying to avoid them and hiding from them and trying to make myself invisible just so they'd leave me alone. In particular, they send dragon dung to his place of work when he was at his very first job. That is the sort of thing his co-workers will make jokes about five or even ten years from now. I'm bascially at my first job in my field now. If someone did that to me, I would be beyond humiliated. Rebecca __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From BrwNeil at aol.com Sat Mar 5 16:53:30 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:53:30 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ginny and Harry. AND Would Ron really be the one f... Message-ID: <1e9.37319ef7.2f5b3e0a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125562 In a message dated 3/5/2005 12:33:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: I don't know if I buy Tonks analogy, but I tend to agree with her that if Harry ends up surviving ( pretty pleae, JKR:o)) and with girlfriend - it will be Ginny or Luna or any other secondary character ( Parvaty, Susan Bones,whoever). Simply because to me text SO clearly points to Ron and Hermione. So clearly points to Ron and Hermione. My question is why? JKR has kept us guessing about everything else in her story. Why in text and interviews is she practically shoving Ron/Hermione down our throats? After five books, we still don't know if Snape is good or bad. JKR sure made him look bad in book one and he has treated Harry nastily ever since. In CoS did anyone guess that Ginny was writing on the walls or would be taken into the chamber. How many of you thought that Sirius was a good guy in PoA, especially after he cut Ron's bed hanging with a knife. I'm sure it was obvious to everyone right from the beginning of GoF that we weren't dealing with the real Moody. The only character that JKR has been totaling honest with is Umbridge. We knew she was totally bad from the beginning. How about Black dying, was that suspected? Rowling on many occasions had said how much she loved the character of Hagrid. It was even publicized that Robbie Coltrane was only committed to the movie series up to book four. Does it make sense that this woman deceives us in her books and interviews on every other subject, but then makes it quite clear that Ron and Hermione are destine to be together? I agree that everything that she has said and all the obvious bickering indicates something could happen between Ron and Hermione. Sometimes it just seems too obvious. We now seem, in the series, to have gone from a trio to a sextet. Of course that doesn't mean they will pair off or that other characters might not be involved, but lets look at the possibilities. JKR isn't writing a porno, so we can eliminate a Ron/Ginny pairing. I also believe her when she says that Neville and Luna is not going to happen. That leaves the following possibilities, assuming all live: Harry---Ginny, Luna, Hermione, Cho OC. Hermione--Harry, Ron, Neville, Krum, OC. Ron--Hermione, Luna, OC Ginny--Harry, Neville, OC Neville--Hermione, Ginny, OC Luna--Harry, Ron, OC. Isn't it interesting that the 'unattractive' Hermione has the most possible contenders. Let's start with Luna. She has a rather obvious liking for Ron, but at the end of OotP she and Harry seem to find a connection. Nevillle has always been treated nicely by Hermione. He asked her to the ball. He ended up going with Ginny, although she went with him just to get there. Neville went to Ginny's aid in OotP. Ginny had an obvious crush on Harry in book two. We saw little of her in book three or four expect her disappointment at not being able to go with Harry to the ball. In book five she seems to have lost that crush, but has she. She certainly isn't a shy timid girl anymore. She defends Neville, saying he isn't a nobody. Is the most involved with OCs. Ron gave the impression in GoF that good looks was the only important quality in a girl. Yet he ignored Padma and spent the entire night watching Hermione and Krum. The most upsetting part of JKR's books is that we only see things from Harry's view point and only what he sees and hears. What was that conversation Ron and Hermione had really about? What were they both really thinking and saying. Luna seems to like Ron, but he seems to regard her as a weirdo. From Harry's point of view it seems Ron likes Hermione and is jealous of Krum. I can't believe that in the year and a half since the ball, Ron and Harry have never discussed what took place. Ron and Hermione constantly fight, but is the fighting really hiding other feelings. Harry is done with Cho. I think this is obvious from the way he describes his feelings. He isn't upset to see her with someone else. Harry thinks Luna is weird, but has formed sort of a bond with her. She is a outcast, and he has always felt like he was one also. They can talk, and understand each other. Honestly although Ginny's role in the story has increased and she is now a much stronger character, there isn't much interaction between her and Harry. I know many people ship H/G, but what, besides her crush, has shown any connection between the two. I realize Harry saved her from the chamber, but I feel he would have saved anyone, As for Harry and Hermione, there has been no sign of any feelings beyond friendship. He needs her, but not necessarily in a romantic way. Harry thinks of Ron as his best friend, but in fact, Hermione has been more responsible for his success than Ron. In PoA and OotP, it was mostly Harry and Hermione doing things while Ron was the comic relief. Hermione is the key character. The unknown quantity. Rowling could destroy all the R/H and H/H shippers by having her relationship with Krum grow into something special. Hasn't Rowling said that Krum will make a reappearance in the story. Truthfully, as she originally was described, Hermione seemed best suited for Neville. She changed as the story has evolved. Her and Harry work well together and are great friends, but can it go further. And can a relationship between Ron and Hermione survive all the fighting. To me they are like oil and water. If not for Harry, I doubt their friendship would have ever lasted. Now we finally come to the conclusion of my rambling where everybody knows I will make predictions. Unfortunately I have two sets. What I wish would happen and what I think will happen. I'd like to see H/Hr, R/L and N/G, but that's not what I expect to happen. I believe in the chess theory which means that Ron will die in the final battle so that Hermione and Harry can go on to defeat Voldemort. I feel that the final defeat of Voldemort will actually be cased by Hermione. It just seems right that the mudblood should have a big part in bringing him down. The question is whether she will die doing so. The only couple I'm predicting is N/G. Neville will also become a Hogwarts Professor. Neil . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 17:13:31 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:13:31 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: <42289660.000001.01424@KATHRYN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125563 "Kathryn" wrote: > I would have said Stalinist Russia > and National Socialist Germany were > political systems rather than cultures Your distinction eludes me. When every book, newspaper, magazine, movie, song and even private conversations must conform to rigid standards I would say that's rather more than politics. > You say that many people have no > respect for your culture, and > that is their right Right? It's not a question of right, it's not your right to feel the force of gravity, it's just the way the way the world is. You either respect me or you don't, my wishes in the matter are irrelevant. > how would you like being forced > you to live under their rules > whether you like it or not > because they've decided your > culture is not worthy of any respect? I wouldn't like it. > If Hermione somehow manages to force > the House Elves to conform to her > will (which is just as much slavery > as the system they live under since > she is refusing to allow them to > exercise their own free will) I agree, as I said before it was wrong of Hermione to try to trick the Elves to become free. > it's been a long time since I read > the books what exactly was > Kreacher's fate? We don't yet know but if Harry has any say in the matter Kreacher's fate will not be pretty. Eggplant From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 17:33:15 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:33:15 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125564 "dumbledore11214" wrote: > So, why doesn't "emotions run high" > excuse apply to Snape in the pensieve scene? Because Hermione had a excellent and logical reason for telling the others in the Shack that Lupin was a werewolf, but Snape did not have a valid reason to insult Lilly. For years everybody had been telling Hermione that werewolfs were no good but she liked Lupin and figured they were wrong, so she covered for him. However for a brief time in the Shack it seemed that Lupin was working for Voldemort; in that instant she must have thought they were right after all and she was wrong, an entirely understandable reaction. I would have done the same. Eggplant From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 17:39:53 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:39:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lockhart - Gryffindor? Was: Re: Opposite of Gryffindor? - Nature of Sorting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050305173954.20516.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125565 --- dumbledore11214 wrote: > Could you show me where he displays "reckless bravado", call it > whatever you like. And without courage person cannot be > Gryffindor, right? > > As we know, he did not do all those brave deeds he wrote about in > his books, and when the courage is needed from him ( to go to > Chambers) he runs away as typical Slytherin does to save his own > neck. :o) > > Could you show me some canonical example of Lockhart courage, > please? Well, which one do you want, reckless bravado or courage? Because they're not the same thing at all. I would argue that Lockhart's entire public career is one long example of reckless bravado. He's always running the risk that someone, somewhere will prove that he didn't do what he said he did or that he was in actual fact in Birmingham when he claimed to be in Burma fighting Dark Creatures. I can't think of anything he did that was really courageous unless you want to count agreeing to let Snape be his duelling opponent. Lockhart is the Gryffindor you get when someone with few brains and fewer morals values courage. And Lockhart DOES value it - in other people. Hannah suggests that Lockhart is the quintessential Slytherin but I totally disagree: Slytherins know how to make alliances and understand the importance of what we would call networking. Lockhart's own personal brand of centre-stage "me! me! me!" is pure Gryffindor-gone-bad. Magda __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 17:50:40 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:50:40 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Phineas' portrait( wasRe: Nature of Sorting) Message-ID: <144.40e8cbd3.2f5b4b70@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125566 In a message dated 3/5/2005 7:44:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk writes: Hannah: I think PN's portrait being in the room was no coincidence. Whether Harry was given the room because of the portrait being there, or that PN's portrait was placed in that room when it was decided Harry would sleep there, I don't know. But I'm sure that DD keeps a much closer eye on Harry than it would seem - doesn't he say as much himself at the end of OotP? Having Phineas there proved extremely useful at Christmas, when Harry considered running away. He could also have monitored Harry's dreams and his behaviour in general. Suppose Harry had been literally possessed, like Ginny was in CoS. PN could have reported it to DD very quickly, hopefully before anyone else in 12GP got hurt. DD was afraid to have too much contact with Harry directly in OotP. By using Phineas, he was able to have a close connection to Harry without Harry himself - and therefore possibly LV - realising it. Hannah ********************************************* Chancie: When reading Hannah's post a question came to mind. I wonder how exactly the Headmasters Portraits work. Would the Portrait need to be painted at the time that they Headmaster was living, or could duplicates be made after ones death? My greatest reason for wondering this is, wouldn't it be much easier to check on Harry if he were given a portrait to put in his room? Harry would have a direct link to Dumbledore 24-7 while at the Dursley's regardless of whether he was locked in his room and unable to release Hedwig. It could be done without the knowledge of Vernon or Petunia, unless the portrait has to be a certain size, but I don't think that is true. Does anyone else have thoughts on this, or am I just in need of more coffee? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 18:10:15 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 18:10:15 -0000 Subject: Lockhart - Gryffindor? /Hermione - liberal. In-Reply-To: <20050305173954.20516.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125567 Magda: Well, which one do you want, reckless bravado or courage? Because they're not the same thing at all. Alla: OK, I thought that recklessness is the same as courage in a negative way. If it is not true, than I would like to see any examples of Lockhart courage in canon. Magda: I would argue that Lockhart's entire public career is one long example of reckless bravado. He's always running the risk that someone, somewhere will prove that he didn't do what he said he did or that he was in actual fact in Birmingham when he claimed to be in Burma fighting Dark Creatures. I can't think of anything he did that was really courageous unless you want to count agreeing to let Snape be his duelling opponent. Alla: Oh, very interesting point about his entire career being example of reckless bravado, I never thought about it. Still, if we are saying that courage and recklessness are not the same , doesn't it mean that Lockhart has no courage? Magda: Lockhart is the Gryffindor you get when someone with few brains and fewer morals values courage. And Lockhart DOES value it - in other people. Alla: I thought that Hat won't sort you in the House, unless YOU have quality which is quintessential for the said house. Am I wrong? If the person values cunninng and ambition in other people but not cunning and ambitious person himself, does it mean that such person will be sorted in Slytherin? Eggplant: "dumbledore11214" wrote: So, why doesn't "emotions run high" excuse apply to Snape in the pensieve scene? Eggplant: Because Hermione had a excellent and logical reason for telling the others in the Shack that Lupin was a werewolf, but Snape did not have a valid reason to insult Lilly. For years everybody had been telling Hermione that werewolfs were no good but she liked Lupin and figured they were wrong, so she covered for him. However for a brief time in the Shack it seemed that Lupin was working for Voldemort; in that instant she must have thought they were right after all and she was wrong, an entirely understandable reaction. I would have done the same. Alla: Eggplant, I liked your explanation, but I did NOT ask that question. That was Irene's. Just my opinion, Alla From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 18:52:25 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 13:52:25 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ginny and Harry. AND Would Ron really be the one f... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125568 In a message dated 3/5/2005 8:55:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, BrwNeil at aol.com writes: Neil How about Black dying, was that suspected? Rowling on many occasions had said how much she loved the character of Hagrid. It was even publicized that Robbie Coltrane was only committed to the movie series up to book four. ****************************** Chancie: I thought I'd start off by replying to this comment. No, I didn't see it comming but I didn't know anyone was supposed to die at that time either. (I had only just gotten into the books a few months before OOP was released, and hadn't gotten into the online HP stuff yet) But also at this time, NONE of the Characters were/are signed for the OOP movie! When they did the contract, the book for OOP hadn't even been released. Mugglenet.com has some info on this on their site. ******************************** Neil We now seem, in the series, to have gone from a trio to a sextet. Of course that doesn't mean they will pair off or that other characters might not be involved, but lets look at the possibilities. JKR isn't writing a porno, so we can eliminate a Ron/Ginny pairing. I also believe her when she says that Neville and Luna is not going to happen. That leaves the following possibilities, assuming all live: Harry---Ginny, Luna, Hermione, Cho OC. Hermione--Harry, Ron, Neville, Krum, OC. Ron--Hermione, Luna, OC Ginny--Harry, Neville, OC Neville--Hermione, Ginny, OC Luna--Harry, Ron, OC. ****************************** Chancie: Actually Harry/Cho was to tally squashed by JKR saying "they were never going to be happy. It's better that it ended early" ******************************* Neil Isn't it interesting that the 'unattractive' Hermione has the most possible contenders ***************************** Chancie: Where does it say that Hermione is "unattractive"(which I take to mean ugly)? IMO she's described as average looking until the Yule ball. Then she's described as "a pretty girl in blue robes Harry didn't know" I don't take this to mean that Harry thought she was ugly before, but that he'd never seen her dolled up. Just because a girl doesn't spend alot of time on her hair and make-up doesn't mean she's ugly. Everyone has at lest a few less than perfect features. I don't see "bushy hair" and "large front teeth" to necessarily translate into "unattractive". **************************** Neil What was that conversation Ron and Hermione had really about? I can't believe that in the year and a half since the ball, Ron and Harry have never discussed what took place. Ron and Hermione constantly fight, but is the fighting really hiding other feelings. ***************************** Chancie: I can believe they haven't discussed it! Harry and Ron had just gotten over a fight, and he himself says/thinks: Harry didn't say anything. He liked being back on speaking terms with Ron too much to speak his mind now--but he somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had. Then there was Harry having to worry about the TWT, and the Cho/Cedric relationship, then the TWT again, then Cedric's death, then Voldemort getting his body and his DE's back, then being sent back to the Dursley's without news, then Dementors attacking him and Duddly, then dealing with his Trial and worrying about being expelled, then Umbridge the toad woman comes to Hogwarts, then Hagrid was missing and turning up like he was hit by a rather large bus, then Author is attacked, then Occulmency lessons with Snape because of his dreams that he's not supposed to have, then studying for O.W.L.s, then his dream/vison of Sirius being tortured, and then the whole thing with going to DoM and resulting in Sirus's death. With all these things going on, I can defiantly see where the fact that Hermione and Ron had a fight after the Yule ball could get overlooked! ********************************** Neil Ron and Hermione constantly fight, but is the fighting really hiding other feelings. *********************************** Chancie: Yep!!! ******************************** Neil know many people ship H/G, but what, besides her crush, has shown any connection between the two. I realize Harry saved her from the chamber, but I feel he would have saved anyone, ******************************* Chancie: I am not as certain about the Harry/Ginny SHIP as I am about Ron/Hermione, but they do have alot more going for them besides the points you listed. Ginny is the ONLY one Harry knows who has been in a situation involving Voldemort/Riddle and can relate to how he feels. She is the only one able to calm him down after over hearing the discussion in St. Mungo's about Author's attack. Hermione tried to calm him, but nothing worked until Ginny stepped in to say something. He felt better, not that many people have that effect on Harry, and I think that's a big point for the H/G ship. ********************************* Neil Hasn't Rowling said that Krum will make a reappearance in the story. Truthfully, as she originally was described, Hermione seemed best suited for Neville. *********************************** Chancie: Yes, JKR did say that Krum would return, but Where did she say Hermione and Neville were suited for eachother? *********************************** Neil I feel that the final defeat of Voldemort will actually be cased by Hermione. It just seems right that the mudblood should have a big part in bringing him down. The question is whether she will die doing so. The only couple I'm predicting is N/G. Neville will also become a Hogwarts Professor. ************************************ Chancie: I have no doubt that Hermione will contribute to the end of Voldemort, but Harry is the hero. It will be him who has the most involved in the battle. I could also see Nevile becoming a herbology Professor, or even another subject (there are still 2 years to go). But I don't agree with N/G. Ginny seems to have no romantic interest in Nevile, and I don't really think Nevile is really into Ginny that way. I think that they are friends and they possible could get together a LONG time from now (things can always change right?), but I see nothing pointing to a ship in the near future nothing that points to a ship From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 5 20:33:02 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:33:02 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's a liberal References: Message-ID: <422A177E.000001.01616@KATHRYN> No: HPFGUIDX 125569 "Kathryn" wrote: > I would have said Stalinist Russia > and National Socialist Germany were > political systems rather than cultures Eggplant Your distinction eludes me. When every book, newspaper, magazine, movie, song and even private conversations must conform to rigid standards I would say that's rather more than politics. Kathryn You cannot simply impose rules on people and claim it is a culture. Culture is created from the shared history, beliefs and influences of a people. National Socialist Germany was a dictatorship based on the political ideals of a certain group. They used their shared culture to try and convince people to join them certainly. They used the shared cultureof the Germanic peoples of Europe to try and increase their popularity but it was simply a nationalistic political system created from the ashes of the German state which remained after the First World War. You appear to be American from some of your comments so you could say that you and I have a shared culture (I am British) we don't however live under the same political system and I think I can say weith absolute certainty that we don't share the same political beliefs. Kathryn > You say that many people have no > respect for your culture, and > that is their right Eggplant Right? It's not a question of right, it's not your right to feel the force of gravity, it's just the way the way the world is. You either respect me or you don't, my wishes in the matter are irrelevant. Kathryn It's still a right - I have a right to live but unless I choose to throw myself off a cliff I don't have much choice in that matter either. Kathryn > If Hermione somehow manages to force > the House Elves to conform to her > will (which is just as much slavery > as the system they live under since > she is refusing to allow them to > exercise their own free will) Eggplant I agree, as I said before it was wrong of Hermione to try to trick the Elves to become free. Kathryn But you didn't seem to be able to distinguish between respecting someone's culture on a purely emotional/intellectual level and respecting it through actions. It is Hermione's right to believe that the culture of the House Elves is not worthy od respect but it is their right to expect her to respect it by her actions. No one has the right to impose their culture or system of beliefs on someone else, by doing so, and make no mistake that is what Hermione is doing, unconsciously as it may be and absolutely with the best of intentions, she is implying that they are somehow 'less' than she is Hermione is a perfect example of the type of person who in the nineteenth century would travel to Africa or the Pacific Islands and try and 'civilize' the natives by insisting they conform to the person in question's ideas of morality and, usually, Christianity. Let's just hope that Hermione doesn't meet the same sticky end that some of those missionaries came to! > it's been a long time since I read > the books what exactly was > Kreacher's fate? Eggplant We don't yet know but if Harry has any say in the matter Kreacher's fate will not be pretty. Kathryn I couldn't remember if he was still at Grimmauld Place now that his master (Sirius) was dead or if he had automatically gone to the next member of the family still alive which would, I assume, be Narcissa. K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 21:08:24 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:08:24 -0000 Subject: The theory of Harry Potter symbolising the Path of Alchemical Liberation. In-Reply-To: <20050305152114.85510.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125570 The Hogshead Barmaid has asked that I leave my wand at the door. Which I do, as I look around to be sure that others are also unarmed. ;-) First let me say that the only reason that I debate these points here is that I feel that the Bible and Christian belief is being misrepresented. Since there are folks on this list that may know nothing about Christianity I feel that I must present an accurate portrayal. I have no problem with anyone who wants to write about the Tao of Harry Potter or even the "Liberation of Harry Potter". I am sure that the author writing about the Buddhist or Taoist view of Harry would not use the Jewish religion to prove his point. And likewise it should not be necessary to present a perverted view of the Christian religion to prove a position that is not only non- Christian, but one that is anathema to Christianity. (Christianity being defined as all of the branches of the one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, as confessed in the Creeds and Counsels of the Church over the past 2000 years.) This is a bit harsh, but it must be said. Moving on There are many paths to the truth that is the Ultimate Truth. There is only one Ultimate Truth but many paths. I am more liberal than most Christians in that I personally believe that the important thing is that a *seeker* follow the path that he knows as outline in one of the major world religions. (In other word, I personally don't think that everyone in the world must be a Christian. Many fundamentalist Christians would not agree with me on this.) All of the world religions have a body of knowledge and practice, perfected over time, that will lead the *seeker* to the Truth. (Some are easier to practice than others and some may lead to a more direct path.) I think that it is important to follow the foundation and traditions of your own religion whatever that may be, and to really practice it on the deepest most mystical level. All of the world religions has practices that will keep the *seeker* safe. It is not wise to go off on ones own, especially at the mystical level. The Buddhist, Taoist, Jewish, Muslim, Native American, Christian and others all have teaching and traditions of practice that will help the *seeker* and keep them safe at the same time. We can all become what a Christian would call a *Saint*. It is in all of us to become that, by whatever name you know it. I am sure that a person of whatever faith can find something in the Harry Potter story that fits with their own belief. That is part of what makes the books so popular. JKR has written a series of books that speak to the deepest part of all of us. And that deep part is found in all people the world over. When Hans reads the books he sees the Rosicrucian path. When I read the books I see the path of mystical Christianity as followed by the contemplative religious orders of the Church. It is also the path taught by the great Saints of the Christian Church. Both the Rosicrucian and Christian mystical paths use similar terms: *to become Christ* or *become one with God* and * Mystical Marriage*. So why such heated debates? Like many arguments among people, what is at the heart of the disagreement is not what one presents as the topic. It is not really the Harry Potter books that we are arguing over. It is, for me at least, the use of one religion against another to prove a point of view that is not part of the orginial. I think that the Hogshead Barmaid said it well when she suggested that if we did not all present our views as the one and only view of the books we could all sit and enjoy a butterbeer together. Maybe even on the house? Where is that barmaid? Peace, Tonks_op (For anyone that wants to study the mystical path of Christianity, I suggest the writings of St. Teresa of Avila as a start, then if you are really brave, St. John of the Cross.) From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 21:11:40 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:11:40 -0000 Subject: Malfoy influence/social circles (was Draco and Daddy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125571 Laur: > There are some very curious things going on here. > > 1. How come Fudge calls "Lucius" by his first name when speaking to > Harry? (I can't think how Fudge would expect Harry would know Lucius > Malfoy by his first name, and yet he never says Lucius's last name. > Unless Fudge knows about Lucius/Harry/Dumbledore's meeting at the end > of COS?) Finwitch: I don't think he was talking to Harry per se - he was talking to the Bulgarian Minister (and making big show about the Boy Who Lived). Laura: > 2. I am stunned that Fudge doesn't know / greet Narcissa right off, > or secondarily that Lucius doesn't say something to the effect of, > "I'm sure you recall my wife, Narcissa...." If the Malfoys or the > Blacks are/were so famous and influential, how come Fudge has > apparently never met Narcissa at a party or something? Evidently the > Fudges and the Malfoys/Blacks do NOT move in the same social circles. Finwitch: Or they do, but Lucius doesn't like Fudge and is making subtle distance, reminding Fudge about well, that there ARE some other people than Harry around? After all, Fudge has been taking advice from Dumbledore... hmm.. old wounds from the Voldemort war - Fudge is - being politician who tries to please everyone (majority anyway)- trying to make friends with Lucius and certainly believing that 'Imperius' - and of course, Lucius is paying bribes...? Laura: > 3. How come Fudge uses "Lucius" but Lucius uses "Fudge" (without > using his title)? Not sure about British society (are politicians > looked down upon in some sense?), so I'm not sure if that is meant to > imply Lucius doesn't have the 'right' to call the minister by his > first name (e.g. Lucius is less senior), or if it implies Lucius has > the seniority? Equality would seem to be if they addressed each other > the same way (i.e. both by first name) Finwitch: Well, let's see... Tonks didn't like her first name. I'd expect Cornelius Fudge to be making better image with sweet and sticky Fudge than with Corny Cornelius.. or their relations could be like that between Severus Snape and Remus Lupin. You DID notice how Lupin says 'Severus' - and Snape stubbornly insists on 'Lupin'. Don't forget that Fudge had been taking advice from Dumbledore (but is definately not doing so in OOP). > 4. Also, Fudge thinks but isn't sure if Lucius knows Arthur Weasley. > "...And let's see who else--you know Arthur Weasley, I daresay?" > That seems kind of weird. Finwitch: Not really -- Fudge possibly DOES know about Arthur Weasley and the raids in Malfoy Mansion -- and certainly about the fight those two got into at Lockhart's signing, it must have been in the Daily Prophet -- maybe he's just telling Malfoy not to pull any stunts like that in front of their international guests or something... and Arthur Weasley IS of the Ministry. > 5. Last but not least, the Malfoys are sitting -behind- the Weasleys. > Sounds like the Weasleys have the better seats. (The box has "about > twenty purple and gilt chairs stood in two rows here, and Harry, > filing into the front seats with the Weasleys..." I can't tell for > 100% sure which row Fudge and the Bulgarian Minister are in, but it > seems implied that it is the front row next to Ludo Bagman, the > commentator. > > Maybe Arthur should have asked Lucius 'what he had to sell to get > these top box seats', rather than the other way around, eh? Finwitch: Arthur got his tickets by Social Contacts. Malfoy used Money. Now, I'd say that Ludo Bagman (who's the HEAD of the Sports Department and therefore more or less in charge of the seats...) gave the tickets to Arthur as a favour (Arthur DID use some favours to get that temporary Floo, didn't he?) Malfoy just doesn't get the 'exchange of favours' going on within the Ministry (and he's envious). It's a game and friends in right places count more than money. (Lucius bribes the Minister, he BUYS the favours Arthur gets by other means... you know, going there to let Moody off with a caution and all that) Finwitch From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 21:30:13 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:30:13 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Would Ron really be the one for her? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125572 >>Tonks: >Ron and Hermione are right for each other. Look at the relationship between Arthur and Molly. What do you see? An example of Ron and Hermione 20 years from now.< Betsy: Ugh, you've totally put me off R/Hr, Tonks. Another Molly and Arthur? What a horrid fate for poor Ron and Hermione. I'd like to think that Ron ends up in a marriage where he's actually respected by his wife and is not forced to hide out in the garden shed. And I'd like to think that Hermione will *grow out* of her bossiness and not continue through life thinking her way is the only way. >>Tonks: >Ron is attracted to Hermione because she is a strong woman like his mother.< Betsy: Molly is *not* strong. She's the weakest member of the Weasley family. She doesn't handle stress well, taking her fears out on those around her (OotP). Molly also believes that ignorance is the best policy (PoA with Harry, OotP with Harry again, and everyone else), which is not a policy of strength. Arthur has a lot more strength than Molly, but because he's so non-confrontational, Molly walks all over him, to the detriment of the family. Betsy, who really likes Ron/Luna, though she's not sure it'll occur in the books. From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 21:36:13 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:36:13 -0000 Subject: CoS. Question regarding Snape mentioning polyjuice and book name with formula. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > vmonte: > > I was looking for a reference in CoS when I came across something > that I think is odd. > > vmonte: > Snape doesn't show the students how to make the potion, but he does > tell them where they can find the potion, interesting. Hmm-mm.. Polyjuice Potion WAS a question in OWL - theory. Apparently he mentions the effects and a reference book once and expects the students to get it (if he does this with other OWL-required matters... well, I don't know). _______ > vmonte: > Damp-spotted? Am I reading this wrong? Shouldn't it read dry- spotted? > Did someone else recently use this book, getting some of the pages > wet? If so, who? Finwitch: Now THAT is interesting question. We DO know that Ginny was possessed and going in and out the Chamber... Hmm--mm. it could have been an older student who needed the book for NEWT-potion-project? someone like Percy? (Molly letting a book from restricted section in the house, not to mention the cost..?) Or was it the Weasley twins who used Lockhart to sign the slip -- you know, Lockhart WOULD sign anything...? Or maybe the spots were there to show what well-made potion is supposed to look like and therefore magically kept liquid (well, they DO have invisible books about invisibility that no one can find and biting monster books about monsters... ) __________ > > "He knew it was me," Harry told Ron and Hermione as they hurried back > to Moaning Myrtle's bathroom. "I could tell." > > vmonte: > So, if Snape knew, why didn't Harry get in trouble? Finwitch: Well, 1) Snape doesn't have the authority to expel Harry. Only McGonagall and Dumbledore do.(We were told this when Harry arrived by Snape himself) 2) Although Snape knew - by means of Legilimency - he doesn't have *proof*. AND Snape's always accusing Harry about this and that, so even if he tried - well, he wouldn't be believed. McGonagall would tell him to quit blaming Harry about everything I suppose - and Dumbledore would just say: 'Innocent until proven guilty, Severus'. Finwitch From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Mar 5 22:08:40 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:08:40 -0000 Subject: CoS. Question regarding Snape mentioning polyjuice and book name with formula. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125574 > vmonte: > Snape doesn't show the students how to make the potion, but he does > tell them where they can find the potion, interesting. Potioncat: At one time, I thought Snape did this on purpose. To nudge the Trio on. I'm no longer so sure. Afterall, Polyjuice does turn up on the OWLs so it was part of the cirriculum. I wonder why a potion that's in a restricted book would be on the OWLs anyway? But it has set up two events. It throws everyone off when Snape interrogates Harry about polyjuice ingredients in GoF. He already had reason to suspect Harry but we were all wondering why he brought it up two years later until we found out about Crouch!Moody. Secondly, it sets it up that Hermione will pick up on anything said by a professor. So Snape can assign the werewolf essay knowing that one of the trio will learn from it. I'm not sure it had the effect he wanted. Of course, I'm not sure if he was trying to reveal Lupin or to protect the trio. > _______ > vmonte: > Damp-spotted? Am I reading this wrong? Shouldn't it read dry- spotted? > Did someone else recently use this book, getting some of the pages > wet? If so, who? Potioncat: The book is restricted but is available to NEWT level Potions students. Everything else in the book sounded pretty terrible! Good question. I wonder if it will come up later? > __________ vmonte: > So, if Snape knew, why didn't Harry get in trouble? Potioncat: Well, most likely Harry was feeling guilty and a little afraid and he thought Snape knew. Snape certainly suspected! As I said, at one time I thought Snape knew too. Now I don't think so. But again, by suspecting them this time, it set him up to suspect them the next time the ingredients went missing. It seems JKR tosses out as many red herrings to the residents of the books as she does to us. Potioncat From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 22:15:07 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:15:07 -0000 Subject: shortest stay at Privet Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125575 > > GEO: We've seen Hogwarts getting compromised more than Privet Drive > including Peter Pettigrew as Scabbers, Quirrelmort, Voldemort's > Diary/Lucius Malfoy, Sirius Black and Barty Crouch Jr. However in > comparison, Privet Drive has been compromised a total of once. Finwitch: Actually... Pre-Hogwarts: DURSLEY-trouble + all that uncontrolled and unknown magic. Not good for anti-Muggle security, is it? What about shopping with Petunia? if a wizard could bow to Harry, another might have killed him! Dobby- a house-elf - got trough (well, yes, he was there with the idea of protecting Harry, but his methods tended to get rather lethal to Harry...). Could it be possible for a house-elf on orders to pop into 4 Privet Drive and kill Harry? and What about the Masons? You might get yourself trough by invitation... Then - well, Harry loses control and leaves. Bound to happen some time... AND Harry did get glimpse of Sirius at Magnolia Crescent. (Again, benevolent act, but - possible trouble). Apparently one *can* at least disapparate from 4 Privet Drive, and organise a floo-connection since Arthur Weasley did it. (sure, they got stuck first and were there for Harry, but still...) And then we get the Dementor ATTACK. Anyway, I'm not altogether certain if Dumbledore's blood-protection was ever magically at work: Harry kept wishing some 'unknown relative' would come and take him away; he felt like a prisoner; Sirius offered him a home - not *new* home. Harry never felt like home there -- not so sure how that effects. What about Lily's hair being auburn while Petunia's is black? What if Petunia was adopted into Evans family - while Lily was born into it - and therefore she's NOT Lily's blood. As to how Harry will leave this time... Maybe he'll tell the neighbourhood kids the truth about his school - and they believe him, even though Harry doesn't do any magic - seeing Harry's photo-album, maybe... Or something else. A party (Sirius' memorial?). A note from Gringotts saying he's inherited a big deal of money (Sirius' will, of course) - or some one, a relation unknown - who had er - dwelled on memories and forgotten to live, planning suicide by the Veil-- until Harry blasted into the Department of Mysteries and gave the person a reason to live... or 'everyone says' is wrong AGAIN and Sirius comes back, as he didn't really die, after all; Maybe he ended up TimeTurned in past to become Stubby Boardman or something; Sirius gets cleared via Quibbler and catching that rat - WHERE WAS THE RAT in OOP? What if an invisible, TimeTurned!Sirius catches him after Harry leaves the scene, keeps him hidden somewhere in a location protected by Fidelius (Secret Keeper being someone trustworthy. A Goblin, perhaps? Hob*goblins*, you know...)... F&G invite him to company meeting? Finwitch From easimm at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 22:17:03 2005 From: easimm at yahoo.com (curlyhornedsnorkack) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:17:03 -0000 Subject: SHIP: complicated webs In-Reply-To: <1e9.37319ef7.2f5b3e0a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125576 I'm shipping, I'm shipping! Of course, for all of you who have been a part of HPFGU for a long time and who've gotten shipping out of their systems, you can ignore me. I might be repeating your words, but that's too bad! It's my turn! I think the Ron-Hermione-Harry relationships are not straightforward. For example, in terms of skills and abilities, Hermione and Harry are a more likely couple than Hermione and Ron. Harry is the most powerful wizard of his age. Hermione is the most intelligent of her age. They both are the best at something. They are close to being equals. From Hermione's actions, it seems to me that she is wildly in love with Harry. Against her better sense she walks into a death trap to be with him. When everyone in school deserts him, she sticks by him. Unfortunately, their relationship is more surrogate mother-son than girlfriend-boyfriend. She makes sure he's fed, explains girls to him, it wouldn't be difficult imagining her straightening out his clothes before he goes in public. She is always there for him, returning from holidays. I think she is maintaining a relationship with Krum to console herself, because she doesn't believe that she is worthy of Harry. Remember how she puts herself down in SS/PS - "only books"? And Harry is interested in really pretty girls. In the end, Hermione and Harry ship doesn't work. I think Ginny and Harry have the best chance for reasons already mentioned by others in the latest ship thread (their shared experiences), and for the simple fact that she is Harry's best friend's sister, and Ron will be pushing the two together. The Hermione and Ron ship just isn't a good match. Ron doesn't provide Hermione with much to admire. Even his loyalty to Harry is in doubt in GOF. Poor Ron, he seems possessive, vaguely desparate, grilling Hermione on anything that might involve romance. I think Ron wants her because she has become familiar and she looks like easy pickings. (Ron is lazy, right?) I think Ron may end alone, chasing after veela for a while, or find a girl who is a bit desperate. Hermione might find a good match once she is out of Hogwarts and meets more older mature wizards. From dk59us at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 22:38:56 2005 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:38:56 -0000 Subject: Extent of blood protection (was Re: shortest stay at Privet Drive) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125577 allies426 wrote: > > (It seems stupid to me for Harry to have to stay there anyway, > > since he's only protected INSIDE the house, what good is that??? We > > already saw what happens when people are trapped inside their > > houses... It would be safer if he stayed at Hogwarts year round!) > GEO commented: > We've seen Hogwarts getting compromised more than Privet Drive > including Peter Pettigrew as Scabbers, Quirrelmort, Voldemort's > Diary/Lucius Malfoy, Sirius Black and Barty Crouch Jr. However in > comparison, Privet Drive has been compromised a total of once. Eustace_Scrubb adds: Does the ancient magic protect Harry against attacks by _anyone_ or just attacks by Lord Thingy? If the latter, and if the dementor attack in Little Whinging was in fact ordered by Umbridge on her own, I'm not sure I'd say that Number Four Privet Drive has been compromised yet. Reading OoP (Canadian ed., p. 737), Dumbledore tells Harry: "While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort...You need return there only once a year, but as long as you can call it home, whilst you are there he cannot hurt you." As usual, this sounded clearer the first time through. Now, on the umpteenth reading, I wonder if this isn't another case of "very careful wording" by JKR. I _do_ think this indicates the protection is only against Voldemort. If anyone else goes after Harry, he must fall back on his own skill and instincts (and on whatever general resilience magic folk have against accidents and violent attacks). ("you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort...he cannot hurt you") If Umbridge called in the dementors on her own, as she claimed herself, that's not covered by the ancient magic. The problem I see with this now is the use of the word "there" to qualify the statements: "_there_ you cannot be touched or harmed" and "whilst you are _there_ he cannot hurt you." This does seem to suggest that the protection is limited to the _place_ where the Dursleys live. At its most specific, this could mean "within the walls of their house." But their home could be interpreted to mean "within their property lines" thus including the yard and the driveway. It could even extend to the "Privet Drive neighborhood" or "Little Whinging." That's about the broadest definition that seems useful, though perhaps others could argue for even more latitude (Surrey? England? UK? Aargh!). But let's assume "there" is limited to the corporate limits of Little Whinging. If so, why couldn't Quirrelmort touch Harry in the catacombs beneath Hogwarts? Is the Privet Drive protection separate from the direct protection due to Lily's sacrifice? Does the latter mean Voldemort can't touch or harm Harry anywhere? If so, what use was the Privet Drive protection--at least until Voldemort's resurrection in bodily form, after which he _can_ touch and harm Harry (I think Imperio and Crucio constitute harm)? But even if the Lily protection is gone while the Privet Drive protection continues, if it's limited to the Dursley's home area it seems to be of relatively little use to Harry on its own. When he lived there year-round, sure, but now he tries to stay "there" as little as possible--and will apparently be there even less in HBP. So exactly what good is it anymore? Bewildered cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 22:56:31 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:56:31 -0000 Subject: Ron and Percy (was: Percy and other Weasleys. Was: Weasley types. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125578 >>Betsy: >Ron has a lot more in common with Percy than he'd like to admit, and the twins know it.< >>Alla: >I sincerely hope not. Ron is ambitious sure, just as Bill and Charley...< Betsy: We don't actually know how ambitious Bill and Charlie are. They both made Prefect and Bill made Head Boy (Charlie didn't, I believe) but we don't know how hard either of them tried for that position, nor how badly they wanted it. Ron, on the other hand, we *know* wanted to be Head Boy and quidditch captain (in PS/SS, anyway). We know he worked hard to get onto the Quidditch team and we know he had to work to improve his playing abilities. If Ron *does* become captain it will be because he worked for the position, not because he's naturally skilled (unlike Harry, and possibly Charlie). Ron finally came into his own as a keeper, but folks aren't singing his praises as the best keeper since whomever. We don't know Ron's total feelings on being Prefect. Because of the twins, Ron made sure to act like it was no big deal. But Harry noticed his attachment to his badge, and Ron was quick to use his authority to shut down Seamus when he was fighting with Harry. So there are hints that Ron may work to be a good Prefect and might try for Head Boy. Ron will have to work to get the positions of Quidditch captain and Head Boy, which shows a certain ambition for public leadership roles. So that's one thing Ron has in common with Percy. Also, like Percy, Ron is incredibly sensitive regarding his dignity. He doesn't like to appear the fool, and so the twins are a threat he takes seriously. Ron avoids confronting them because he's seen what they've done to Percy and he doesn't want similar treatment. I believe the twins presence is part of the problem with Ron's keeping skills, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it's only after the twins leave Hogwarts that Ron finally comes into his own as keeper. Ron is more laid back than Percy, true. I think he benefited from Percy's pain, in that with Percy the twins had such a perfect target they mostly left Ron alone, as long as he kept himself to the background. I'm sure Ron will keep his ambitions to himself and not let the twins get a hint of it until he's well on the way to achieving his goals. Betsy From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 23:12:42 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:12:42 -0000 Subject: CoS. Question regarding Snape mentioning polyjuice and book name with formula. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125579 Potioncat wrote: Well, most likely Harry was feeling guilty and a little afraid and he thought Snape knew. Snape certainly suspected! As I said, at one time I thought Snape knew too. Now I don't think so. But again, by suspecting them this time, it set him up to suspect them the next time the ingredients went missing. It seems JKR tosses out as many red herrings to the residents of the books as she does to us. vmonte responds: Yes, you make a lot of sense. It was a good set-up for the next time Snape suspected Harry. Thanks! Vivian From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 23:14:36 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:14:36 -0000 Subject: Hermione re: Lupin's lycanthropy (was: Hermione's a liberal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125580 > SSSusan: > My first thought was that, yes, you're right -- she did keep his > secret all year, which shows "more truthfully" (as you so nicely put > it) that his status as werewolf didn't make her suspicious or bother > her. And perhaps this was helped along by the knowledge that Lupin > was assisting Harry in learning the Patronus charm [she knew that, > right??]. > > OTOH, it is possible that Hermione *was* suspicious to some degree > ever since she figured it out and, as soon as she suspected Lupin of > betraying Harry by helping Sirius, she was ready to latch right onto > that "He's a werewolf" thing as the *cause* of it. I mean, instead > of just saying, "I trusted you, and now I find you've been lying, > helping a mass murderer to get to Harry!" she phrases it as, "Don't > trust him... he's a werewolf!" > > So which is it with this remark of her? Emotions running high, and > Hermione's just horrified at her own seemingly wrong judgment of > Lupin's character as good? Or is it to show an underlying prejudice > (as we know exists in Ron), even in Hermione? Finwitch: You know -- it WAS Full Moon that night. Not to trust a werewolf on a full moon night is caution, not prejudice... Did she realise that it WAS Full Moon? Or was it just Hermione going: X can't be trusted because he's a werewolf; One must be nice to Y because he's a house- elf; One does trust Z because he's a professor; one admires L because he's written so many books; ... Hermione's questions and courtecy to Mr Black... oh goodness. 'How did you escape Azkaban?' (Oh sure, she ALWAYS wants to know things and her precious books name that as near impossible). And I suppose she figured that courtecy to a potential killer would keep her alive. But what does Harry see: The action of SB going to the rat and trusted Lupin saying they needed explanation; SB stopped choking him so long as he wasn't trying to kill SB and it wasn't to kill him at all; *admitted* Guilt over persuasion vs. the rat's death-faking, beeping rampings to whatever way would please others more - and the SNEAKOSKOPE probably reacted to the rat... Harry HAD wondered how the rat had lived so long etc. Do you believe the rat who pretended to be your friend's pet AND Dead... or the imprisoned but later escaped (like Harry with Dursleys) dog who actually was giving advice about a hurt leg and obviously minding killing the rat more than him...? What about Lupin - *grading* Hermione on that comment? Giving them wands while disarming *himself* - to give the kids the upper hand... what sort of assistant-of-murderer does that? Oh, Harry sees two of his father's friends now that he knows the full truth... and the traitor whom he is now letting to live. Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 23:41:38 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:41:38 -0000 Subject: Ron and Percy (was: Percy and other Weasleys. Was: Weasley types. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125581 > Betsy: > Ron is more laid back than Percy, true. I think he benefited from > Percy's pain, in that with Percy the twins had such a perfect target > they mostly left Ron alone, as long as he kept himself to the > background. I'm sure Ron will keep his ambitions to himself and not > let the twins get a hint of it until he's well on the way to > achieving his goals. Finwitch: Something that might change things: Ron and Harry (with Lupin?) tell the twins that Mr Moony was a prefect AND even a professor later, Mr Prongs was Head Boy; and that Mr Prongs and Mr Padfoot made excellent grades at all subjects and Mr Moony did well, too (except Potions, or was Moony being overly self-critical?); and while Mr Wormtail did not achieve much of anything, he was a bloody traitor! I'd like to see how the twins would react to THAT. Ron knows how much they admired those map-makers... But on the whole -- I think that when Neville was eating that Canary Cream Cracker - they *were* hesitating as whether to protect timid Neville or respect him by playing the prank to full as they'd do with any other. They chose latter and I think it was good for ALL of them. They also help Harry out ALL the time: His trunk at the train; rescue from 4 Privet Drive; giving Harry the map... and while the twins didn't believe Harry any more than Ron did, they did not abandon him for it... they let and even encourage Harry to use the Extendable Ears... Finwitch From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 6 00:01:59 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 00:01:59 -0000 Subject: Extent of blood protection (was Re: shortest stay at Privet Drive) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125582 > GEO commented: > > We've seen Hogwarts getting compromised more than Privet Drive > > including Peter Pettigrew as Scabbers, Quirrelmort, Voldemort's > > Diary/Lucius Malfoy, Sirius Black and Barty Crouch Jr. However in comparison, Privet Drive has been compromised a total of once. > > Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > Does the ancient magic protect Harry against attacks by _anyone_ or > just attacks by Lord Thingy? If the latter, and if the dementor > attack in Little Whinging was in fact ordered by Umbridge on her own, > I'm not sure I'd say that Number Four Privet Drive has been > compromised yet. Hannah: I think it must just be against Voldemort, or maybe those closely allied to him (Death Eaters etc.) Or against dark creatures (since everyone seemed to think he'd be safe from the Dementors inside the house). > Eustace Scrubb: > The problem I see with this now is the use of the word "there" to > qualify the statements: "_there_ you cannot be touched or harmed" and > "whilst you are _there_ he cannot hurt you." This does seem to > suggest that the protection is limited to the _place_ where the > Dursleys live. At its most specific, this could mean "within the > walls of their house." But their home could be interpreted to mean > "within their property lines" thus including the yard and the > driveway. It could even extend to the "Privet Drive neighborhood" or > "Little Whinging." That's about the broadest definition that seems > useful, though perhaps others could argue for even more latitude > (Surrey? England? UK? Aargh!). > Hannah: I reckon it's limited to the house. Following the Dementor attack, Mrs Figg rushes Harry home, and he is ordered strongly by Sirius and Mr Weasley to stay inside the house. Thus it would make sense that he is safe within the property. Eustace Scrubb: > But let's assume "there" is limited to the corporate limits of Little Whinging. If so, why couldn't Quirrelmort touch Harry in the > catacombs beneath Hogwarts? Is the Privet Drive protection separate from the direct protection due to Lily's sacrifice? Does the latter mean Voldemort can't touch or harm Harry anywhere? If so, what use was the Privet Drive protection--at least until Voldemort's > resurrection in bodily form, after which he _can_ touch and harm Harry (I think Imperio and Crucio constitute harm)? > Hannah: I think the Privet Drive protection is separate from the blood protection. LV overcomes the latter at the end of GoF, when he is able to touch Harry. Yet Harry still has to return to Privet Drive that summer, and even the following summer, reason given: for the protection. Eustace Scrubb: > But even if the Lily protection is gone while the Privet Drive > protection continues, if it's limited to the Dursley's home area it > seems to be of relatively little use to Harry on its own. When he > lived there year-round, sure, but now he tries to stay "there" as > little as possible--and will apparently be there even less in HBP. So exactly what good is it anymore? Hannah: It provides JKR the chance to show poor old Harry being treated mean by his Road Dahl-esque relatives ;-) I don't really know what the reasoning would be behind his need to return, unless there is some aspect of blood protection we don't yet know about. Or unless there's another reason altogether... Hannah From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Mar 6 00:06:41 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 00:06:41 -0000 Subject: The theory of Harry Potter symbolising the Path of Alchemical Liberation. In-Reply-To: <20050305152114.85510.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: Hans: > Sorry everyone, but I have no intention of engaging in a brawl. My > only goal here is to testify of my recognition of Harry Potter as > being a new version of the timeless Path of Liberation. I'm not > even going to debate in the sense of wanting to prove I'm right. > I'm just going to answer some questions and correct some, what in > my opinion are, misconceptions. Geoff: I have come to the conclusion that we have to agree to disagree but I believe that in saying that you are not going to debate is a cop out because you are then going on to attempt to prove that you are right. Your last sentence underlines that. Hans: > So to sum it up: I'm just addressing myself to those people who > have open minds and are interested in the spiritual path Jo might > be propounding in Harry Potter. If people get upset at my > comparisons may I invite them to press "delete" whenever one of my > emails arrives? Geoff: And leave you with a wide open field to give just one view to people on the group who are trying to make sense of life? Come, come, Hans, to suggest that anyone not agreeing with you does not have an open mind is the accusation which you yourself are laying at the door of the early church. Hans: > The fact that some members keep saying I'm propagating heretical > teachings proves to me they do not understand the point of these > posts. I just want to expose people to the truth: not the truth of > the teachings themselves, but the truth of whether Harry Potter is > BASED on those teachings. Reject the teachings of liberation by all > means, call them heretical, satanic or occult or whatever you like. > That's not the point. The point is: does Harry Potter contain them > or not? Quite simple. Geoff: I believe that Harry Potter is based on the teachings of Christ as laid out in the gospels and much of what is said and done by individuals in the books reflects that basis. > Geoff: > In the 2nd century, Gnosticism was a heresy which taught that only > people with "special knowledge" who had gone through initiation > into the cult could approach God and they were considered to be > special ? a cut above the hoi polloi. > Hans: > I am quite convinced Geoff really, genuinely believes this. However > I'm sure 99% of the members of this group know and understand that > history is written by the victors. Tom Harpur, an Anglican > theologian and Professor of Greek and New Testament studies, proves > in his book, "The Pagan Christ", that the Gnostics were persecuted > and suppressed by the early Christian Church in itsbattle to gain > supremacy over the wide range of religious communities that > populated the western world between 200 and 300 AD. I'm not blaming > modern Christians for what the founding fathers of the church did > 1700 years ago. However in order to be honourable and honest I > sthink modern Christians hould be able to face the fact that the > early church stamped out many groups and many teachings which it > saw as dangerous to its rule. Geoff: I hope I didn't see a hint of patronising in your remark about me above. The gospel of Christ - as I have pointed out many times - is a surprisingly simply one to embrace. It merely asks for BELIEF. The reason that Gnosticism was frowned on was that it implied that to be a believedr or anyone of importance within the church, you had to possess this special knowledge which could only be acquired by rituals and ceremonies. It was the 2nd century equivalent of the Death Eaters and "pure-blood" superiority. Hans: > The reason that self-initiation is such hard work is that humanity > has sunk so low after the fall from the Kingdom of Heaven. The > reason the world is in such a mess is because we human beings have > lost touch with God. Our minds do not understand what God wants. We > are blind and deaf to the Divine Plan. Voldemort lives in each one > of us and wants to keep it that way. Geoff: But self-initiation will not save us because we are not sinless. e cannot pull ourselves up by our own bootlaces. This is why God came to earth in the fully-human and fully-divine form of Christ. Hans: > Indeed, as Geoff says, "God so loved the world that he sent his > only son so that whoever believed in him would not perish but have > everlasting life." Each one of us has His only Son asleep in our heart. Geoff: Agreed. Hans: > Why use so many Christian analogies? I believe the Brotherhood of > the Masters of Compassion (my nomenclature) has given the Christian > gospels to humanity as a road-map to liberation. They were given to > all of humanity and do not belong to any particular group. The > gospels are wonderful guide books > to the divine laws of alchemy if you don't take them literally. > They were always meant to be understood symbolically, as applying > to the Inner Christ. However in its bid for dominance the early > church imposed a literal interpretation on them. Instead of people > being allowed to use them to give birth to their inner Christ the > church imposed the teachings of the birth of Christ as a solely > historical event. Geoff: Which it was. It was the point in time where God entered his creation to save it. Read the teaching and sermons and letters of Peter and Paul and the other disciples. These were not politicising the early church. They had met with the risen Christ and seen his glory. Hans: > "Why were the secret teachings of the original Christians brutally > suppressed by the Roman Church? > Because they show that the gospel story is a spiritual allegory > encoding a profound philosophy that leads to Gnosis ? mystical > enlightenment. Geoff: We're back to people having to have a mystical enlightenment instead of seeing the real Jesus. Hans: > What I'm saying is that the teachings in the gospels were in fact > taken by the early church and made out to be their sole property. I > deny ownership of the gospels Geoff: ...that's an interesting comment.... We'll have to hold you to that :-) Hans: > and I feel I can and should compare Harry Potter to the gospels > as well as the Alchemical Wedding or whatever else I can see > parallels with. Geoff: As long as you have the courtesy to accept that Christians interpret their *own* scriptures differently to you. > Hans: > Why get so excited? Because Liberation is the most wonderful, > ecstatic and rapturous thing there is. There is nothing more > glorious, blissful or heavenly than that. When God's Son wakes up > in your heart you have God inside you! He (gradually) lifts you > above all worries, all suffering, all anguish. To have God wake up > inside your heart is like having a spiritual orgasm, so intense, so > heart-warming, so pure, there are no words to describe it. Geoff: Now there, except perhaps for your metaphor, I can agree. One of the modern paraphrases of the Bible always refers to Jesus as "The Liberator". I sensed that over 40 years ago when I came to accept Jesus into my life and felt the entrance of the Holy Spirit into my heart and life; but of course I met Christ, the Son of the living God, not "a spiritual allegory encoding a profound philosophy". Hans: > Harry Potter is both a new religion and an old one. It's old in the > sense that it's the timeless teachings of liberation. It's new in > the sense that millions of people are absorbing it in a new way > unconsciously. At some time in the future, when the Path of > Liberation is taught overtly, with less symbolism, it will be a > very short jump indeed for people to make the connection from Harry > Potter to liberation. Geoff: To disagree yet again, Harry Potter is not a religion but a fictional young man - very close to real life, very understandable who, like all of us here on earth wants to know the real truth about "Life, the Universe and Everything". We see pointers in the books which underline the teaching of Christ and folk, such as Dumbledore who show us the clues to finding that truth and even folk like Lucius Malfoy who give us a yardstick of evil to avoid. Finally, may I say that I commend Tonks' reply to this post for reading as well as my ramblings. From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 15:48:55 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 15:48:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's OWL in Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > > > GEO: Very unlikely. He needs the potions class to become an auror. > Though I doubt he will become an auror or at least be a servant of > the ministry, I'm pretty sure he'll in the end have the > qualifications for the job considering Rowling's comments about his > possible future post-Hogwarts. While McGonagall says she recommends potions as aurors need to have a knowledge of poisons etc. The job requires 5 NEWTs of at least exceeds Expectations. Plus some personality tests etc. It is possible Harry won't need to take potions. Will all he has been through he might get in without it. Also, The books end with Harry's seventh year so we might not find out about this anyway. Brent From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 01:07:13 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 01:07:13 -0000 Subject: Harry's OWL in Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brent" wrote: > While McGonagall says she recommends potions as aurors need to have a > knowledge of poisons etc. The job requires 5 NEWTs of at least > exceeds Expectations. Plus some personality tests etc. It is > possible Harry won't need to take potions. Will all he has been > through he might get in without it. Also, The books end with Harry's > seventh year so we might not find out about this anyway. Finwitch: Or was Potions a *required* NEWT for becoming an Auror? Dunno how much Moody knows about antidotes... I suppose you *must* know the theory - you know, take into account things like Polyjuice Potion, Poisons, Veritaserum etc when you're out to figure out who-did-it... Being able to make antidotes and Healing Potions yourself certainly would do well in case you get hit. I think that Defense Against Dark Arts, Outstanding for both theory and Practical definately IS a requirement. As for transfiguration/Charms -- wand is your tool, and best know how to use it, right? And to find out what sort of spells some Dark Wizard has used... and you never know what you'll need. I'd say summoning Charm and ability to transfigure an object into one you need (or the DE into a ferret or a newt or something... easier to cage them...) goes well, too. As for others-- Muggle Studies (if you don't know what a gun is, you'll get killed, plus you mustn't attract attention...) for some, but not Harry nor Hermione. Herbology (you ought to recognise Devil's Snare to avoid it, and of course, if you don't know to cover your ears near Mandrakes, you'll die when you hear them cry...) Care for Magical Creatures-- think what an aid a Phoenix can be to an Auror etc. and it helps, to know how to calm monsters, but... Divination? Hmm-mm. Acceptance of death, or questioning information - I'd say pretty important. Personality tests? Tonks/Kingsley/Moody... Tricks! They all play tricks (Garden reward during Draught? The Confundus.) You must think outside the box if needed, not give up - not panic in face of danger... Think Harry will pass. he's been doing these things since eleven! Finwitch From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 01:45:31 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 01:45:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's OWL in Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > As for others-- Muggle Studies (if you don't know what a gun is, > you'll get killed, plus you mustn't attract attention...) for some, > but not Harry nor Hermione. GEO: I don't believe that they have as many guns over there in Britain so it's probably not necessary and would a regular firearm be able to kill a wizard? I think assualt rifles and shotguns stand a chance, but given the fact that Neville was able to survive a fall from several stories I really don't think they might be as effective in killing wizards and witches as they are in killing regular people. > Divination? Hmm-mm. Acceptance of death, or questioning information - > I'd say pretty important. > GEO: I say it's totally useless. The only thing divination has taught the students of Hogwarts is that prophecy and predication are 9/10s wrong. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 01:55:40 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 01:55:40 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny and Harry. AND Would Ron really be the one for her? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125587 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > What I do disagree with is that Harry and Ginny are not equals. > Ginny is the ONLY one who understand what does it mean to have > Voldemort in her head, so she clearly knows what Harry is going > through GEO: Except their experiences are so clearly different. In Ginny's possession, she blacked out and was unknowingly under Riddle's thrawl for some time. In Harry's case, he felt it and knew when Voldemort was arising within him. Two totally different cases. > And she was not just taken by Riddle. She thought against him > bravely. GEO: And in the end she lost against a mere shadow of a young Voldemort when in comparison Harry fought against Voldemort in his most powerful and inhuman incarnation and expelled him from his mind, which in my opinion creates an inequality between the two: Harry is stronger in will and power in comparison to Ginny. > As to final fight in Chamber, that was the classical "hero saving > beatiful maiden" fairy tale moment, IMO. GEO: Is Harry Potter a fairy tale? It has fairy tale elements, but it certainly is not a fairy tale and probably won't end like one. In fact I'm willing to wager a few quatloos that there will be no Ginny and Harry at the end of book 7 and it will be Harry and Hermione at the end. From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 6 01:58:57 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:58:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dept of Mysteries Prophecies - Row 97=1997 potterplots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050306015857.65360.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125588 > Tinglinger/Samnanya: > I wonder then why JKR even bothered with the whole deathday chapter in COS and Nick's birthday cake. 1492 would be a lame date to use if not for the link to 1992 when COS takes place. Geoff: My view about the Deathday party is that, being the 500th anniversary, it obviously establishes the year as 1992. >From that, we can confirm that Harry, now in the Second Year, entered Hogwarts in 1991 and was born in 1980. Although I think that Jo Rowling had revealed this in interviews etc., I think this is the first place in canon that Harry's year of birth is confirmed and, thus, dates relating to Hogwarts events. This may be lame but as she always reminds us that she is writing for children. . .the first thing I think of when I hear 1492 is the school rhyme "In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue." She could be giving a visual or a time line for kids reading the books to put Nick in context? I am from America and as we insist on continuing to believe the myth of Columbus discovering America, this is one of those rote lessons hammered in our heads. I don't know if Columbus is even focused on in European or British schools. Is he? Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 02:13:32 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 02:13:32 -0000 Subject: shortest stay at Privet Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > Finwitch: > Actually... > Pre-Hogwarts: DURSLEY-trouble + all that uncontrolled and unknown > magic. Not good for anti-Muggle security, is it? What about shopping > with Petunia? if a wizard could bow to Harry, another might have > killed him! GEO: Except the wizards that Harry encountered were all seemingly Order members or ministry aurors including Diggle, Shacklebolt and Vance so they were of no threat and possibly observers and people sent by DD to check up on him. > Could it be possible for a house-elf on orders to pop > into 4 Privet Drive and kill Harry? GEO: Can House-Elves even kill? > Apparently one *can* at least disapparate from 4 Privet Drive, and > organise a floo-connection since Arthur Weasley did it. (sure, they > got stuck first and were there for Harry, but still...) GEO: Arthur Weasley is also a DD supporter and ally. I'm sure that helped immensly in getting the floo people in setting up the connection. > What about Lily's hair being auburn while Petunia's is black? GEO: Petunia's hair I believe is blond not black. I believe you're suffering movie contamination here. As for the differences, it's most likely genetics like why Hermione is a witch and her parents aren't or why Filch and Figg are squibs instead of wizards. From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 6 02:18:17 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:18:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape the next to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050306021817.99481.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125590 I think Snape is the one too cowardly to show up. He had continued to be on good terms with Lucius all these years and so could appear to have been loyal. I am sure Lucius would vouge for him and especially his treatment of Harry. He would have a ready excuse for not showing because of being under DD eye and would not be killed but he would be punished. Karkaroff was the one who publicly denounced Voldemort in court and turned evidence and would thus be the one who left him forever. Karkaroff didn't even try to crawl back and apologize so that would have cinched it for Voldemort. theotokos librarybookgrl wrote: I've been wondering who JKR will kill off next, since she admitted on her site that she will continue to kill characters off. In GOF when Voldemort is looking around the circle of death eaters, he comes to six empty spaces. He says three died in his service. One was too cowardly to show up (Karakoff, since he fled that night?), one has left forever, he will die of course (Snape, since he left to be loyal to Dumbledore), and one at Hogwarts now doing his bidding (Crouch, Jr.). Didn't Hagrid tell Harry that when Voldemort decided to kill someone he usually did it, except in the case of Harry? Sure, Snape is spying and has done some working, evidently, to get back in the good graces of Voldy to get the job done, but one wonders, is this possible? Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 02:19:57 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 02:19:57 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny and Harry. AND Would Ron really be the one for her? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125591 Alla wrote earlier: What I do disagree with is that Harry and Ginny are not equals. Ginny is the ONLY one who understand what does it mean to have Voldemort in her head, so she clearly knows what Harry is going through GEO: Except their experiences are so clearly different. In Ginny's possession, she blacked out and was unknowingly under Riddle's thrawl for some time. In Harry's case, he felt it and knew when Voldemort was arising within him. Two totally different cases. Alla: Oy, what have I gotten myself into? :o) I am really really not that passionate about SHIPS, except couple of slash ships, both of which include Sirius. But I love Ginny and do feel that she will be a good match for Harry. As I said earlier I don't feel that she is the only possible match for Harry ( or Harry for her). I can quite easily see Harry with any of "just a name" characters, I just don't see Harry with Hermione, not because I don't think they are a good match, but because I think that books lead to Ron/Hermione. If Ron dies at the end, then I can see Harry/Hermione too, otherwise, I just don't see it. Moreover, I don't think I have much passion to argue for Ron/Hermione or against them. I just think that text goes that road. You can call it my intuitive speculation, if you'd like. :o) So, back to Harry and Ginny. OF COURSE their cases are different. Harry is the hero of the book. Ginny is still secondary character. I was only arguing that they share something that NOBODY (including Hermione) shares with Harry. Voldemort messed up with both of their heads. Of course Harry is different. He is after all destined to kill Voldie ( if prophecy is correct), not Ginny. I just think that Ginny was strong enough, but of course she was overpowered at the end. As Dumbledore said "Older and wiser wizards than she had been hoodwinked by Lord Voldemort" - CoS, p.330, paperback. Alla earlier: And she was not just taken by Riddle. She thought against him bravely. GEO: And in the end she lost against a mere shadow of a young Voldemort when in comparison Harry fought against Voldemort in his most powerful and inhuman incarnation and expelled him from his mind, which in my opinion creates an inequality between the two: Harry is stronger in will and power in comparison to Ginny. Alla: Umm, yes, she did lost. I am just saying that she put up a good fight, that is all. She is not Harry, no question about it. :) It is just no other female character shares that kind of experience with him. GEO: Is Harry Potter a fairy tale? It has fairy tale elements, but it certainly is not a fairy tale and probably won't end like one. In fact I'm willing to wager a few quatloos that there will be no Ginny and Harry at the end of book 7 and it will be Harry and Hermione at the end. Alla: It is not a fairy tale, but earlier books had a lot of fairy tale elements, IMO. And bet accepted - NO Harry /Hermione, if Ron is alive, if Ron is dead, the bet is off. :o) Neil: What I wish would happen and what I think will happen. I'd like to see H/Hr, R/L and N/G, but that's not what I expect to happen. I believe in the chess theory which means that Ron will die in the final battle so that Hermione and Harry can go on to defeat Voldemort. I feel that the final defeat of Voldemort will actually be cased by Hermione. It just seems right that the mudblood should have a big part in bringing him down. The question is whether she will die doing so. The only couple I'm predicting is N/G. Neville will also become a Hogwarts Professor. Alla: If we are to go with Chess game foreshadowing then Ron will appear to die, but not really dead at the end, IMO. I can see Neville and Ginny and Harry/Luna also, but I feel the most confident with Ron/Hermione,which of course can be wrong. :) JMO, Alla. From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 6 02:21:48 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:21:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape the next to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050306022148.16055.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125592 librarybookgrl wrote: I've been wondering who JKR will kill off next, since she admitted on her site that she will continue to kill characters off. In GOF when Voldemort is looking around the circle of death eaters, he comes to six empty spaces. He says three died in his service. One was too cowardly to show up (Karakoff, since he fled that night?), one has left forever, he will die of course (Snape, since he left to be loyal to Dumbledore), and one at Hogwarts now doing his bidding (Crouch, Jr.). Didn't Hagrid tell Harry that when Voldemort decided to kill someone he usually did it, except in the case of Harry? Sure, Snape is spying and has done some working, evidently, to get back in the good graces of Voldy to get the job done, but one wonders, is this possible? me: I think Snape is the one too cowardly to show up. He had continued to be on good terms with Lucius all these years and so could appear to have been loyal. I am sure Lucius would vouge for his loyalty as well as his treatment of Harry. He would have a ready excuse for not showing because of being under DD eye and would not be killed but he would be punished. Karkaroff was the one who publicly denounced Voldemort in court and turned evidence and would thus be the one who left him forever. Karkaroff didn't even try to crawl back and apologize so that would have cinched it for Voldemort. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 02:33:44 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 02:33:44 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: <422A177E.000001.01616@KATHRYN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn" wrote: It is Hermione's right to believe that the culture of the House > Elves is not worthy od respect but it is their right to expect her to > respect it by her actions. GEO: Their culture is a violation of the rights of sentient beings and the condemnation of the majority of humanity towards slavery. I think that trumps everything including their culture. > No one has the right to impose their culture or > system of beliefs on someone else, GEO: Says who? by doing so, and make no mistake that is > what Hermione is doing, unconsciously as it may be and absolutely with the > best of intentions, she is implying that they are somehow 'less' than she is GEO: I really don't see your reasoning. The elves know no other way of life. They have never been given any other choice but slavery and servitude. If they are fully aware of all their choices and still continue to serve wizards then what Hermione is doing is wrong, but the elves haven't experienced or known freedom so Hermione can only be right. > Hermione is a perfect example of the type of person who in the nineteenth > century would travel to Africa or the Pacific Islands and try and 'civilize' > the natives by insisting they conform to the person in question's ideas of > morality and, usually, Christianity. GEO: Better example would be the present situation of America and the UK in the Middle East and especially Iraq. They're trying to rewrite a wrong and bring their ideals to a place that has long been ignored and exploited using less than noble methods in a world that no longer cares. I for one believe that what both are doing is right though others can see that it's wrong because of the methods and that the exploited seem relatively happy in their minds. However consider this: slavery is something that the majority of humanity has condemned, should wizards be allowed to practice this on a group of clearly sentient beings just because they are isolated and different from Humanity? From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 02:41:26 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 02:41:26 -0000 Subject: Is Snape the next to die? In-Reply-To: <20050306021817.99481.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125594 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: > I think Snape is the one too cowardly to show up. GEO: I disagree, Snape is the one that has abandoned him forever. Karkaroff is the cowardly one considering the first thing he did after the rising was to flee for his life. > He had continued to be on good terms with Lucius all these years and so could appear to have been loyal. I am sure Lucius would vouge for him and especially his treatment of Harry. GEO: Oh I agree that would mostly likely be why he has been accepted back into the circle though I wonder if Voldemort actually buys it considering that Snape is also an occlumens. >He would have a ready excuse for not showing because of being under >DD eye and would not be killed but he would be punished. GEO: Plus he has an even better excuse: he can't apparate at Hogwarts. I'm sure getting back to his great master would prove rather difficult without apparition. From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 6 03:04:42 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 03:04:42 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's a liberal References: Message-ID: <422A734A.000001.01216@KATHRYN> No: HPFGUIDX 125595 GEO: I really don't see your reasoning. The elves know no other way of life. They have never been given any other choice but slavery and servitude. If they are fully aware of all their choices and still continue to serve wizards then what Hermione is doing is wrong, but the elves haven't experienced or known freedom so Hermione can only be right. K Riight - and I've never known the what it's like to skydive but I'd sure as heck protest if someone threw me out of a plane. As I said earlier we have seen three individual house elves. Two of them have exercised a certain amount of choice - Kreacher and Dobby, both are reasonably content with their choices and the consequences. One had no choice at all and is now horribly depressed. Hermione is tryig to make the choices for the elves - she's not respecting them as sentient beings at all. What Hermione is doing is exchanging one kind of slavery for another. If she campaigned to change the laws so that house elves cannot be forced to work for a family if they do not want to then that would be something I would applaud. But she is trying to forcethe house elves to conform to what she feels they should be rather than allowing them to do what they want. Hermione is imposing her views on others and completely disregarding their wishes > Hermione is a perfect example of the type of person who in the nineteenth > century would travel to Africa or the Pacific Islands and try and 'civilize' > the natives by insisting they conform to the person in question's ideas of > morality and, usually, Christianity. GEO: Better example would be the present situation of America and the UK in the Middle East and especially Iraq. They're trying to rewrite a wrong and bring their ideals to a place that has long been ignored and exploited using less than noble methods in a world that no longer cares. I for one believe that what both are doing is right though others can see that it's wrong because of the methods and that the exploited seem relatively happy in their minds. However consider this: slavery is something that the majority of humanity has condemned, should wizards be allowed to practice this on a group of clearly sentient beings just because they are isolated and different from Humanity? K Could you explain you point here again because I'm reading this as you saying that imposing values of 'civilization' and religion on people who were doing *perfectly* well beforehand was right because the poor little natives just didn't know any better, and I'm sure that can't be what you meant. I have no problem with the missionaries saying 'hey this is what I believe, whaddya think?' but no one has the right to force their will or opinion upon another person. If the House Elves *do not* wish to be free then by insisting that they *must* be then you are not giving them any kind of 'right' you are simply saying that instead of blindly obeying their masters they should blindly obey you. I do not believe slavery is right - but the House Elves need to be given the option, if they *want* to stay as they are they should be given that choice. I have *never* said Hermione's aims are necessarily wrong, just her methods. By saying that she has the right to choose for them then Hermione is saying she is better than them. Surely any sentient being has the right to live as they wish provided that by doing so they are not harming anyone else? By definition if the House Elves wish to continue as they are (and most of them seem to, and don't give me that argument about not knowing any better, they interact with 'free' wizards every day, they can see what the alternative is perfectly well) then it isn't slavery. K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 6 03:18:51 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 03:18:51 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's a liberal References: <422A734A.000001.01216@KATHRYN> Message-ID: <422A769B.000001.00260@KATHRYN> No: HPFGUIDX 125596 This is an addendum to my previous post - I am now bowing out of this discussion, so don't expect me to reply. I am not doing it because I have changed my opinions but rather because I can *feel* myself turning into Hermione as I type. No one has the right to force their opinion on others and *I will not* tolerate dissent on this point .... ;) Which is to say I can sympathise with Hermione, but just because most of us are not always capable of realising when our actions contradict our words when emotions are running high, doesn't make us right. Hermione is so passionate about her belief that they should have the right to choose that she cannot see that she is depriving the elves of that very right. *shakes head* of course my high irritation levels may have something to do with the fact that it's half past three in the morning, because the Australians insist on having their day time at such an odd hour and I'm watching the GP ;) K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 03:47:20 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 03:47:20 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: <422A734A.000001.01216@KATHRYN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125597 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn" wrote: > Riight - and I've never known the what it's like to skydive but I'd sure as > heck protest if someone threw me out of a plane. GEO: Totally false analogy here that does not work. If the elves were given the choice of freedom, they could also put themselves under the servitude of wizards again. If you were shoved out of a plane, there is no way of getting back up there. > As I said earlier we have > seen three individual house elves. Two of them have exercised a certain > amount of choice - Kreacher and Dobby, both are reasonably content with > their choices and the consequences. GEO: And in comparison, Kreacher under the servitude of the Blacks was turned into an insane house elf and later betrayed Sirius and Dobby under the Malfoys was just plain miserable and went behind their backs in order to save Harry. Looks like 2/3 of the examples didn't do well under servitude. > But she is trying to forcethe house elves to conform to what she > feels they should be rather than allowing them to do what they want. > Hermione is imposing her views on others and completely disregarding their > wishes GEO: Not what she feels, but what most of the world feels. Slavery is illegal and is only practiced in the worst places of the world which unfortunately does include a few places under American governace. > Could you explain you point here again because I'm reading this as you > saying that imposing values of 'civilization' and religion on people who > were doing *perfectly* well beforehand was right because the poor little > natives just didn't know any better, and I'm sure that can't be what you > meant. GEO: Imposing freedom on those who have lived under oppression and slavery is right. Your analogy in my opinion is wrong since the natives were doing fine before the Europeans came however that is not the case for House Elves or the Middle East. > but no one has the right to force their will or > opinion upon another person. If the House Elves *do not* wish to be free > then by insisting that they *must* be then you are not giving them any kind > of 'right' you are simply saying that instead of blindly obeying their > masters they should blindly obey you. GEO: How so? Giving them their freedom, teaching them the use of it and letting them go is hardly the equivalent to them trading one master for another since they have the choice of going back or disagreeing and going their own way. >I have *never* said Hermione's > aims are necessarily wrong, just her methods. By saying that she has the > right to choose for them then Hermione is saying she is better than them. GEO: I disagree. Given the Wizarding World and how it resembles our world, any methody is preferable to having them languish in their slavery because I for one don't think the MoM and the Purebloods would ever free the elves. ? By definition if the House > Elves wish to continue as they are (and most of them seem to, and don't give > me that argument about not knowing any better, they interact with 'free' > wizards every day, they can see what the alternative is perfectly well) then > it isn't slavery. GEO: I very much doubt the first House Elves were born to serve humans. Their enslavement it seems was imposed by the wizards. Freeing them is only the natural thing. They may like it, but then plenty of people forced into servitude and slavery have also expressedt these same opinions. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 05:31:48 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 05:31:48 -0000 Subject: Is Snape the next to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125598 theotokos wrote: > > I think Snape is the one too cowardly to show up. > > GEO responded: I disagree, Snape is the one that has abandoned him forever. > Karkaroff is the cowardly one considering the first thing he did > after the rising was to flee for his life. > I he can't apparate at Hogwarts. I'm sure getting back to his great master would prove rather difficult without apparition. Carol responds: I've stated similar arguments at some length before, and IIRC JKR herself confirmed that Snape was the one LV believes will has left him forever--unfortunately the remark was made at a conference and not an interview and the traces of it have disappeared from the Internet. At any rate, Voldemort probably knows enough about his supporters to be aware that Karkaroff is a coward and snape is not. To answer the question in the subject heading, JKR has stated that Snape has an important role to play in Book 7, so I doubt very much that he's the next to die. I suspect that one of the Weasleys, maybe Charlie or Bill, will be next. Or Trelawney may prove right in her fears for Lupin, who (according to her) didn't want to see his future in her crystal ball. Carol, with apologies for not providing page references and links From pollynesbitt at yahoo.com.mx Sat Mar 5 19:08:14 2005 From: pollynesbitt at yahoo.com.mx (pollynesbitt) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 19:08:14 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Wizzarding-muggles_blood._I_still_don=B4t_get_it!_Help!?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125599 Ok, This is a long question about how a muggle goes about becoming a wizard. First question : are wizards-witches part of the human race? A race that has both muggles and wizards in it?s geneology? Or are wizards a different species alltogether? ( and how long does a full blooded wizard live?) Which brings me to my most important question: How does a full blooded muggle ( like Hermy) become a witch? Is it a gene thing or a state of mind? Because, the way I see it, She comes to Hogwarts as a muggle, but will leave as a witch. Or was she already a witch from birth? If so, how did that happen? Did she "Mutate"? Did she have a late great wizard grandfather or what? And if she is a wizard from birth, why isn?t she pure blood? I would think that anyone born a witch or wizard would be of pure blood... And lets say for instance that she were to marry someone like Neville or Draco ( of pure wizard blood), would their children be pure bloods or " mud bloods" because of their grandparents? So how many generations would it take before they would actually be pure bloods? Or are pure blood families rapidly becoming extinct without the possiblity of regenerating? And is there a difference between dirty bloods, mud bloods and half- bloods? Would a muggle born be a "dirty-blood" and someone like Harry be a mud blood? Or is Harry considered a pure blood, even though his mother?s parents were ( I think) muggles? Or would he be a half-blood and thus could not be called a mud-blood?????HELP!!!!! Which brings me to my next question...just kidding. From juli17 at aol.com Sun Mar 6 07:26:36 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:26:36 EST Subject: They're teenagers Message-ID: <8d.223f734a.2f5c0aac@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125600 Alla wrote: > > What I disagree with is your last sentence - Snape's adolescent > beliefs definitely become his beliefs as adult,IMO, since he did > join Voldemort ( unless of course you believe that Snape joined DE > without subscribing to their ideology, which I don't). Julie: It's true he joined Voldemort, but he was likely in his late teens at the time, I believe? And by the time he was 22 he had already left Voldemort. Whether this parting was in part based on a change in Snape's ideology I don't know. It's certainly possible, and also possible that his nearly two decades association with Dumbledore has further influenced his ideology. We don't know for sure, because there is really nothing in the books that indicates Snape's current ideology on pureblood issues. (BTW, I don't subscribe to the theory that Snape is mean to Hermoine because she's Muggleborn, not when it's so easy for him to resent her because she's a know-it-all, a Gryffindor, and a close friend of that cursed Harry Potter!) Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 08:01:34 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 08:01:34 -0000 Subject: Lockhart - Gryffindor? - Nature of Courage. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > ...edited... > > > Magda: > I would argue that Lockhart's entire public career is one long > example of reckless bravado. He's always running the risk that > someone, somewhere will prove that he didn't do what he said ... > > ...edited... > Alla: > > Oh, very interesting point about his entire career being example of > reckless bravado.... Still, if we are saying that courage and > recklessness are not the same , doesn't it mean that Lockhart has no > courage? > Magda: > Lockhart is the Gryffindor you get when someone with few brains and > fewer morals values courage. And Lockhart DOES value it - in other > people. > Alla: > > I thought that Hat won't sort you in the House, unless YOU have > quality which is quintessential for the said house. Am I wrong? If > the person values cunninng and ambition in other people but not > cunning and ambitious person himself, does it mean that such person > will be sorted in Slytherin? > > > ...edited... > > Alla bboyminn: I made some points in another thread about the Nature of Sorting and of House Qualities which I realize may have been somewhat convoluted. In it I tried to make several points which I will remake here, and this time try to make them clear and concise to prevent them from getting lost in my endless rambling. 1.) Having the inner 'House Essense' that gets you sorted into a House doesn't guarantee that you will ultimately be able to bring that essense to fulfillment in your outward applied life. While you may have Gryffindor courage, you may never be, for what ever reason, a courageous Gryffindor. 2.) The outward manifestation of an Essential House Quality is not always positive. We fall into the trap of assuming something like courage will always be heroic. Peter Petigrew and Gilderoy Lockhart are living examples that it's not. They both display courage, but use that courage to accomplish negative things. As Alla points out, it took a great deal of courage and daring for Lockhart to perpetrate the level of fraud that he did. To go on writing book after book knowing that at some point it could all come crashing down on him took courage in that he persevered in the face of adversity and against all odds. It's just when Harry 'persevers in the face of adversity' we call it heroic, when Lockhart doesn't we call it cowardly. As I am trying to illustrate, even cowards have their own brand of courage. In addition, Lockhart traveled the world over to meet the people who /really/ did the things in his books. World travel can be a dangerous thing, it takes courage to go off on your own to stange sometime unstable countries, and track down and interview people. Just tracking some of these people down is an act of courage, since some people tend to get dangerously defensive when they hear that a stranger is looking for them. He traveled to areas that he knew in advance were having troubles with vampires, werewolves, and other dark creatures. These are no small things. Peter Petigrew displayed a form of negative courage when he was confronted by Sirius and Peter blew up the street. He took a calcualted risk that he wouldn't accidentally blow himself up in the process. His choices were to act with a negative manifestation of courage or be paralyzed by fear, he chose negative courage. Peter showed some courage in living as a rat with the Weasleys. Mr Weasley is afteral a member of Magical Law Enforcement, and as such, there was a calculated risk that Mr Weasley would find him out. Peter also showed courage in going to Albania to seek out Voldemort. Give the extremely bad outcome of the night a Godric's Hollow there was a very high likelihood that Voldemort would not be too pleased to see Peter. He may have even place the total blame for the fiasco on Peter. So, there certainly was risk in that course of action. I think Peter showed courage when he chopped of his hand to aid Voldemort getting his body back. True, Peter was near scared to death, but how many people could summon the courage to do that? Here we see examples of people who have the core essense of courage, but it just comes out in very negative ways. I think, and I have in the other thread given minor illustrations, that this same positively and negatively applied House Essense can appear in any of the Houses. Slytherins can either be highly ambitious ethical or unethical businessmen. Hufflepuffs can work hard toward constructive or destructive ends. Ravenclaw's can apply their genius to good ends or evil. Gryffindors can display great daring in achieving good or bad things. The quality of the outcome and the nature of intent are not the deciding factors in determining the presence of an Essential House Quality. Well, I wasn't as short as I had hoped for, but, none the less, there it is. Steve/bboyminn From kempermentor at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 08:13:33 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 08:13:33 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Wizzarding-muggles_blood._I_still_don=B4t_get_it!_Help!?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125602 pollynesbittwrote: > Ok, This is a long question about how a muggle goes about becoming a wizard. First question : are wizards-witches part of the human race? A race > that has both muggles and wizards in it?s geneology? > Or are wizards a different species alltogether? ( and how long does a > full blooded wizard live?) > > Which brings me to my most important question: How does a full > blooded muggle ( like Hermy) become a witch? > Is it a gene thing or a state of mind? Because, the way I see it, She > comes to Hogwarts as a muggle, but will leave as a witch. > Or was she already a witch from birth? If so, how did that happen? > Did she "Mutate"? Did she have a late great wizard grandfather or > what? > And if she is a wizard from birth, why isn?t she pure blood? I would > think that anyone born a witch or wizard would be of pure blood... > > And lets say for instance that she were to marry someone like Neville > or Draco ( of pure wizard blood), would their children be pure bloods > or " mud bloods" because of their grandparents? > So how many generations would it take before they would actually be > pure bloods? Or are pure blood families rapidly becoming extinct > without the possiblity of regenerating? > And is there a difference between dirty bloods, mud bloods and half- > bloods? > Would a muggle born be a "dirty-blood" and someone like Harry be a > mud blood? Or is Harry considered a pure blood, even though his > mother?s parents were ( I think) muggles? Or would he be a half- blood > and thus could not be called a mud-blood?????HELP!!!!! Kemper now: To kind of answer few of your questions... I've recently been thinking about Human Magical Origin as well... Growing up in a Judeo/Christian household: God created Man with flaws and faults (in His own image?). Man had some kids through Eve. After a while, there were some `birth defects' or `mutations': children who were `different'. I imagine parents in the early days of human history (and most likely throughout history) would attempt to beat the `different' out their kids `for their own good'. MANY cultures fear the different; it seems reasonable that the Magic Minority that survived their childhood would move away and hide from their abusive families, intolerant communities, ignorant churches, and hurtful et al. End result or beginning is that Purebloods came from Muggles. But Growing up in a secular school system: Man evolved from Ape... survival of the fittest (but who or what created the fittist? primordial ooze, who created that? from the Big Bang, who created the thing that was before the that ?) Since there are magical owls, rats, cats, toads, snakes, why can't there be magical apes? So, Magical Man evolved from Magical Ape. End result or beginning is that Purebloods evolved from Metamorphosis (but not like man to roach). Which is it? I don't know, but since many Purebloods seem to have an aversion to Muggles, I would suspect that the first one MAY be true. Kemper From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 08:46:46 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 08:46:46 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Wizzarding-muggles_blood._I_still_don=B4t_get_it!_Help!?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pollynesbitt" wrote: > > > Ok, This is a long question about how a muggle goes about becoming a > wizard. > > First question : are wizards-witches part of the human race? ... > (and how long does a full blooded wizard live?) > > Which brings me to my most important question: How does a full > blooded muggle ( like Hermy) become a witch? bboyminn: That's like asking if artistic, musical, or scientific genuises are part of the human race. Those with extreme genius are indeed capable of magical things when compared to us common muggles. Obviously, I think being a wizard or a witch, is just a matter of a human-being being blessed with magical genius. It is somewhat genetic since the smart people frequently come from smart families, musically talented people frequently come from musical families. Magic is a little more genetic that normal talent though. It's clear from the books that magical people /most often/ come from magical families, but just like genius (just like muggle borns) sometimes it crops up in unlikely places. > pollynesbitt continues: > > ... the way I see it, She comes to Hogwarts as a muggle, but will > leave as a witch. bboyminn: Hermione entered the school as a magical being, and is now in the process of becoming a /trained/ magical being; which we call a witch. > pollynesbitt continues: > > Did she have a late great wizard grandfather or what? > bboyminn: While there is nothing to support it, I have always suspected that a lot of muggle-borns actually have some latent magical blood hiding in some distant part of their family tree. On the other hand, sometimes genius, or in this case magic, randomly crop up in unlikely places. > pollynesbitt continues: > > And if she is a wizard from birth, why isn?t she pure blood? > ...edited... > Would a muggle born be a "dirty-blood" and someone like Harry be a > mud blood? Or is Harry considered a pure blood, even though his > mother?s parents were ( I think) muggles? Or would he be a > half-blood and thus could not be called a mud-blood?????HELP!!!!! > > Which brings me to my next question...just kidding. > > pollynesbitt bboyminn: The nature of someone's blood is not an absolute fact, it's a matter of prejudice and opinion. In addition, references to /blood/ are more often about heritage and ancestry than the actual blood of the person under discussion. To Malfoy's prejudice, Hermione is a mudblood by virtue of her muggle parents. Draco is not quite as hard on Harry because Harry's parents were a witch and wizard, but Lily's parents were muggles. So, absolutely, in Draco's mind, Harry is not a pureblood. I coined the term 'fullblood' to describe Harry. It's not actually used in the books, but it's a fair term. Harry has fullblooded magical parents, both a witch and a wizard, that makes Harry a fullblooded magical being, but he's not a /pureblood/ because he can't trace his lineage back though several generations of fullblooded ancestors. The main point is that fullbood, mudblood, halfblood, etc... are not absolutes, they mean different things to different people. Again, they are based on prejudice and opinion. In addition, in general conversation, one person could refer to another as a fullbood in one conversation, and a halfblood in another depending on the context of the conversations. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 6 10:57:36 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:57:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Snape (& short response to Geoff) Message-ID: <20050306105736.87554.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125604 Snape!!! One of the most intriguing and thought provoking characters, judging by the heated discussion he provokes on HPFGU. I think Severus Snape and Remus John Lupin belong together. In my opinion they represent respectively the black king and the grey king in "The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross". As I said in my last post, these two characters personify two voices that speak forcefully in the candidate for alchemical transformation. They represent a harvest of experiences that has built up in the microcosm for hundreds of incarnations. These experiences have all been caused by the interplay of two opposite forces in our lives: good and evil - black and grey. How apt! How superbly and cunningly appropriate! Not black and white, but black and grey! For there is no Good; there is no pure white goodness in this fallen universe! There are only shades of grey and black. Good is where the Spirit is, Good is in the original divine universe we've left behind. One of the greatest examples of a person who had reached liberation, Jesus, said: "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." (Mark 10:18) We'll discuss Lupin in the next post. Snape, as you know, always wears black. He is the black king and therefore the voice of our shadow side, our black side, our sinful aspect. He also symbolises the accumulated bad experiences we've had. He is the cup of bitterness we've had to drink throughout hundreds of incarnations. How many times have we committed intensely evil actions, how many times have we given in to the evil around us, how often have we made grave errors of judgement that have caused great suffering to others? All these things have caused extremely painful karmic consequences for each of us. We all have our black side! We human beings are unable to learn without making errors. The word "error" literally means "to wander". What we do in life is to wander around in the dark. Originally this was not so. Before the Fall we were always guided by the Light of the Spirit and there was no wandering, no errors, and so no sin. But we chose to turn away from the Light and go our own way. The more we turned away the more we wandered, and the more we wandered the more we fell into error and blackness. That's Snape. Snape therefore is not just our evil side, he is that aspect in us which caused us to turn away from the Light. And whenever we turn away from the Light we seek the darkness. The darkness is any place where the Spirit is not present, and that's this whole universe, which Jacob Boehme calls "the nature of death". Whenever we seek life fulfilment in any aspect of this fallen universe, Snape is talking to us. One of the most dangerous aspects of our personal Snape is a tendency to engage in occult activities. The human being has a conscious or unconscious desire to rule over his life (the black "KING"), to make his temporary state permanent, to conquer death. We know that Severus Snape studied the black arts in his youth. He was a death eater and was marked by Voldemort with the dark mark. What is the essence of Occultism? It is in fact very close to alchemy. It's Harry Potter without Harry. What I mean by that is that the occultist goes the same path as Harry does, but without a new soul born to Lily and James. As I said in my post about the Chamber of Secrets (Harry 10 - post 316) the occultist goes to the serpent of the kundalini in the plexus sacralis and drives this upwards through all the chakras, endowing him with great occult powers. You can read about these in "The Chakras" by C.W. Leadbeater (Theosophical Publishing House). No wonder Snape has such skill at legilimens and occlumency! Those are occult powers. Jo shows us in the most powerful way possible that Harry can't do that, and in any case he doesn't need it! His love is what drives Voldemort out, not occult power. The liberating message of Harry Potter is so clear, so bright, so pure, so obvious I'm amazed so few people can see it! In the Alchemical Wedding the black king voluntarily submits to decapitation. When a person decides to go the Path of Liberation through alchemical transformation, he surrenders his whole being to the New Soul, personified by Harry. This is why Snape leaves Voldemort and later joins the Order of the Phoenix. He tries to save Harry's life during the quidditch match in Book 1. The apprentice alchemist knows that both his good side and his bad side have to be sacrificed so that the original divine human being can resurge in an alchemical process of death and rebirth. He tries to restrict and restrain his black side as much as possible, but it is still very painful to the new soul. This is why Harry suffers whenever he is in contact with Snape. Snape's very essence is abhorrent to Harry, as our shadow side is abhorrent to the new soul. Now you know why Dumbledore would never want Snape teaching Defence against the Dark Arts. That subject symbolises the lessons the new soul needs, in order to grow and become mature. It would be too big a temptation to Severus. I quote Jo from the Albert Hall interview: "when Professor Dumbledore took Professor Snape onto the staff and Professor Snape said he'd like to teach Defence Against the Dark Arts please and Professor Dumbledore felt that it might bring out the worst in Professor Snape." It all makes sense now, doesn't it? It is obvious that Snape hates Sirius, James and Remus. Sirius: the archetype of liberation. James: the longing for liberation. Remus: the striving for goodness. These three aspects of the candidate on the Path of Liberation are intensely abhorrent to the shadow side. This is why he tries to get Sirius "kissed" by the dementors. Sirius is the very opposite to everything Snape stands for! This is why he opposes Remus' appointment to Hogwarts. This is why he loathes James with the utmost intensity. But I'm sure that although he hurts Harry deeply and makes his life miserable, he will ultimately sacrifice himself for Harry. I guess he will hate him to the end; nevertheless he will see that the only way to defeat Voldemort is to die for Harry. In the Alchemical Wedding the black king has a very old and frail wife. As I said in my last post, the wives of the black king and the grey king symbolise their passive aspects. The wife of the black king is very old and near death. This symbolises the fact that when the alchemist is approaching liberation, the evil in him is weak, and close to its end. The grey king's wife is quite young and vivacious, symbolising the fact that the good side of the alchemist is approaching the rebirth of Absolute Good. She rejoices in her self-surrender to the new born king. Jo once said that some of the teachers indeed do have wives, and so I wonder if Snape has an old frail wife and Lupin a young vigorous one. If they do she's nailing her flag to the mast. Then she's admitting what I've been saying for the last two years: Harry Potter is a new version of the ancient alchemical Path of total human Liberation from suffering, sorrow and death. Jo is bringing this message to the world in the form of a story that is so rapturously beautiful I can't find words for it. The words "Harry Potter" are enough to bring tears to the eyes! Good on ya, Jo, yer blood's worth bottlin! --------------------------------------------- Just a few conciliatory words to Tonks and Geoff about their reactions to my post 125555. My sincere compliments to the restrained and dispassionate way they have both reacted to my post. Just two short points to correct two false impressions I have made on Geoff. Firstly I'm sorry I sounded patronising when I said Geoff sincerely believes what he says about the Gnostics. Far from being patronising I was trying say that I affirm the sincerity of his belief in what to me is false. Secondly I agree with Geoff that we can't pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps. Tonks said a similar thing. Because of my concentration on the "Inner Christ" I have not mentioned the Universal Christ in that particular post. However I do believe that "without me you can do nothing". This is illustrated vividly by Christian's dream in "The Alchemical Wedding". He and the rest of humanity is imprisoned in a deep well. Cords are lowered which people can grasp. The cords are then pulled up. I believe the cords symbolise the Christ. So I'm sure we agree on that. What we won't agree on, I'm sure, is what exactly Christ is. But I won't go into that. Let's finish this discussion on a note of concord. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 20:23:18 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 20:23:18 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: <422A177E.000001.01616@KATHRYN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125608 "Kathryn" wrote: > You cannot simply impose rules on > people and claim it is a culture. You can if the vast majority of people think those imposed rules are absolutely wonderful, in the case of NAZI Germany at one time or another the vast majority of people thought Hitler was the best thing since sliced bread, the only significant disagreement came from the Jews. And that's what I meant when I said you are not obligated to respect all other cultures no matter what. > I think I can say weith absolute > certainty that we don't share the > same political beliefs. I don't even know your political beliefs and you don't know mine, certainly not the ones I think are most important because this did not seem the proper place to express them. > It is Hermione's right to believe > that the culture of the House > Elves is not worthy od respect but > it is their right to expect her to > respect it by her actions. I agree as I said three times now, it was wrong of Hermione to try to trick the Elves to become free. > Hermione is a perfect example of > the type of person who in the > nineteenth century would travel > to Africa or the Pacific Islands > and try and 'civilize' the natives > by insisting they conform to the > person in question's ideas of > morality and, usually, Christianity That's going too far, yes Hermione made a mistake but to equate her to Christian missionaries in Africa is a low blow. She didn't sink quite that far! > I couldn't remember if he [Kreature] > was still at Grimmauld Place now that > his master (Sirius) was dead or if he > had automatically gone to the next > member of the family still alive which > would, I assume, be Narcissa. Book 5 didn't say but I predict in book 6 we will find that Sirius left Grimmauld Place to Harry making him Kreature's master. Harry might then quite literally order him to jump off a cliff. Eggplant From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 6 20:50:44 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:50:44 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's a liberal References: Message-ID: <422B6D24.000001.01236@KATHRYN> No: HPFGUIDX 125609 "Kathryn" wrote: > You cannot simply impose rules on > people and claim it is a culture. Eggplant You can if the vast majority of people think those imposed rules are absolutely wonderful, in the case of NAZI Germany at one time or another the vast majority of people thought Hitler was the best thing since sliced bread, K Still doesn't make it a culture it's a political system/philosophy. > I couldn't remember if he [Kreacher] > was still at Grimmauld Place now that > his master (Sirius) was dead or if he > had automatically gone to the next > member of the family still alive which > would, I assume, be Narcissa. Eggplant Book 5 didn't say but I predict in book 6 we will find that Sirius left Grimmauld Place to Harry making him Kreature's master. Harry might then quite literally order him to jump off a cliff. K I'd be surprised if Sirius can have left the house to Harry since he probably hasn't had time to make any kind of will since he got out of Azkaban and I doubt Harry was his heir before the incident at Godric's Hollow and besides that we don't know if Kreacher would be able to be passed on like that. If house Elves are tied to a family (which seems as likely as being tied to a particular house) then he's probably gone to Narcissa. K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 21:00:51 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:00:51 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: <422B6D24.000001.01236@KATHRYN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125610 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn" wrote: > > I'd be surprised if Sirius can have left the house to Harry since he > probably hasn't had time to make any kind of will since he got out of > Azkaban GEO: Time? The man was stuck in his mother's house for almost an entire year. I daresay he had plenty of time to do things like drawing up a will considering he had absolutely nothing else to do during that time. and I doubt Harry was his heir before the incident at Godric's > Hollow and besides that we don't know if Kreacher would be able to be passed > on like that. If house Elves are tied to a family (which seems as likely as > being tied to a particular house) then he's probably gone to Narcissa. GEO: Unless of course, Sirius makes Harry his heir, which might mean that Kreacher goes to Harry as previously established. From kempermentor at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 21:16:51 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:16:51 -0000 Subject: Kreacher in Probate was Re: Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125611 "Kathryn" wrote: > > > > I'd be surprised if Sirius can have left the house to Harry since > he > > probably hasn't had time to make any kind of will since he got out of Azkaban GEO: Time? The man was stuck in his mother's house for almost an > entire year. I daresay he had plenty of time to do things like > drawing up a will considering he had absolutely nothing else to do > during that time. > > and I doubt Harry was his heir before the incident at Godric's > > Hollow and besides that we don't know if Kreacher would be able to > be passed > > on like that. If house Elves are tied to a family (which seems as > likely as > > being tied to a particular house) then he's probably gone to > Narcissa. > > GEO: Unless of course, Sirius makes Harry his heir, which might mean > that Kreacher goes to Harry as previously established. But there are other possibilities... I just read an editorial over at mugglenet.com that addresses this very issues. It's writen by a lawyer (American?) It's very interesting and worth a read. Kemper From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 21:33:51 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:33:51 -0000 Subject: Hermione's a liberal In-Reply-To: <422B6D24.000001.01236@KATHRYN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125612 "Kathryn" wrote: > Still doesn't make it a culture > it's a political system/philosophy. Your distinction still eludes me. A culture is just a bunch of people who have similar laws, customs and ideas, in short people who share a common philosophy. > I'd be surprised if Sirius can > have left the house to Harry > since he probably hasn't had > time to make any kind of will In book 5 Sirius complains that he has far too much time on his hands and he is on the Ministry's most wanted list AND a member of the Order of the Phoenix, both extremely dangerous organizations to be a member of; so it would seem prudent of him to make out a will, and Harry is the obvious one to leave everything he owned to. Who else, Snape? > he's [Kreature's] probably gone to Narcissa. I think you're wrong because that just wouldn't be very interesting, better if Harry becomes Kreature's new master. Now that has possibilities! Eggplant From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Mar 6 06:41:09 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 06:41:09 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Would Ron really be the one for her? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125613 > Betsy: > Ugh, you've totally put me off R/Hr, Tonks. Another Molly and > Arthur? What a horrid fate for poor Ron and Hermione. I'd like >to think that Ron ends up in a marriage where he's actually >respected by his wife and is not forced to hide out in the garden >shed. And I'd like to think that Hermione will *grow out* of her >bossiness and not continue through life thinking her way is the only >way. Phoenixgod2000: Wow, I could not agree with this point more, Betsy. I see the Molly /Arthur and the Ron/Hermione ship exactly the same way as you. I think it probably is a ship that's going to happen because the story is leading to it, but I like Ron too much to want to subject him to Hermione for a lifetime. Although I'm not sure Hermione would be able to run as roughshod over Ron as Molly does to Arthur. Ron seems like a pretty strong willed individual to me and I doubt he would hide in his woodshed like his father. Oh, the fights they would have. Thats the same reason why I don't ship H/G. Ginny in OOTP reminded me a lot of Molly at her most domineering. A lot of the scenes that fans seem to love where Ginny puts Harry in his *place* like at Christmas time kinda made me mad. I don't understand how anyone could read the way Ginny confronts Harry in OOTP as a postive in any way. IMO, Harry needs someone either purely fun-loving but mature like Tonks (the character) or gentle, like Luna or one of the Hufflepuff girls (Hannah or Susan) instead of someone as abrasive as Ginny, who seemed to almost be too overly confrontational in OOTP-- like she wanted to make up for being so passive earlier in series. I'm amazed Ginny could fly as well as she could considering the chip on her shoulder. > Betsy: > Molly is *not* strong. She's the weakest member of the Weasley > family. She doesn't handle stress well, taking her fears out on > those around her (OotP). Molly also believes that ignorance is the > best policy (PoA with Harry, OotP with Harry again, and everyone > else), which is not a policy of strength. Arthur has a lot more > strength than Molly, but because he's so non-confrontational, Molly > walks all over him, to the detriment of the family. > > Betsy, who really likes Ron/Luna, though she's not sure it'll occur > in the books. Phoenixgod2000: I think you're readiny my mind, Betsy, because I see Molly the same way. I like Ron/Luna as well, Just not as much as I like Harry/Luna. That scene at the end between them really got to me and sold me on a the possibility of a ship between Harry and Luna. Although I wouldn't mind Ron/Luna either. Whoever, if anyone, ends up Luna is going to have a powerful asset in the form a girl with absolute and unwavering faith in whoever she chooses to date. She would be their number one cheerleader, just like she's her father's number one cheerleader. That kind of faith is powerful. And that's why I like Luna. Phoenixgod2000, whose favorite Fanon ship is Harry/Bellatrix, 'cause I like my Harry powerful, slightly dark, and under no ones control... From tayla_gangrel at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 06:43:04 2005 From: tayla_gangrel at yahoo.com (Tayla) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:43:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy and the Twins (was: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050306064304.16385.qmail@web61208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125614 Betsy: Tayla, you'll need to cite some canon of Percy attacking his family when he first gets his job at the Ministry, because as far as I can remember, it didn't happen. The twins are upset because Percy takes his job seriously, seems to be moving ahead, and requests some *gasp* quiet so that he can get some work done while at home. The twins, apparently, hate the idea of Percy being happy. Tayla Now: "I am sorry that I was unable to see more of you over the summer. It pains me to criticize our parents, but I am afraid I can no longer live under their roof while they remain mixed up with the dangerous crowd around Dumbledore (if you are writing to Mother at any point, you might tell her that a certain Sturgis Podmore, who is a great friend of Dumbledore's, has recently been sent to Azkaban for trespass at the Ministry. Perhaps that will open their eyes to the kind of petty criminals with whom they are currently rubbing shoulders). I count myself very lucky to have escaped the stigma of association with such people - the Minister really could not be more gracious to me - and I do hope, Ron that you will not allow family ties to blind you to the misguided nature of our parents' beliefs and actions either. I sincerely hope that, in time, they will realize how mistaken they were and I shall, of course, be ready to accept a full apology when that day comes. Please think over what I have said most carefully, particularly the bit about Harry Potter, and congratulations again on becoming prefect. Your brother, Percy" - Ootp, Scholastic Ed. Pg. 298 Tayla: Percy is exhibiting far too many symptoms that we have seen in our own history for me to be comfortable with him around. I cannot remember the exact name they used for it, but we did see some very "Percyish" behavior in Nazi Germany with their own young. Is it disturbing, absolutely. But then again, and I am sorry, but Percy is disturbing. Betsy: Again, please cite canon. Arthur says that Percy only got his position so that the Ministry can spy on the family (OotP). He doesn't accuse Percy of spying himself. And it could be argued that by breaking with his family Percy makes sure that he *cannot* be used as a spy. How could he possibly keep Fudge informed of his family's movements if he won't even see them? Tayla Now: I think that the above quote says it all. Percy clearly in his letter to Ron states, with some sugar coating, where his loyalties are, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was willing to turn in his own parents, if he was given the opportunity. That line about Azkaban says it all, "tell Mother because she will be the worry-wart, and will start to be able to control them, otherwise, it's Azkaban for our parents, so sorry!" Tayla From lsanford at lnls.org Sun Mar 6 08:59:10 2005 From: lsanford at lnls.org (L Sanford) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:59:10 -0600 Subject: Pettigrew's life debt Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125615 Molley: Ever since I read (and re-read) GoF, I have been disturbed by the fact that Peter Pettigrew's life debt to Harry, considered to be significant at least by DD, was completely disregarded by Pettigrew in the graveyard scene. I know that LV was present and that PP doesn't have the fortitude to defy his master to his face, but did not seem reluctant or hesitant to do what he needed to do except when it came to his own contribution. He matter-of -factly binds Harry to the headstone, draws Harry's blood and even strikes him without so much as giving pause to the implications of what he was doing to this boy to whom he owes his life. So . . .what *is* the consequence to not honoring a life debt? Is PP aware that he in fact *has* a life debt to Harry? In light of all the horrible and treacherous things he's already done, does he think that failing to honor this debt pales in comparison. I can imagine in "The Final Confrontation" that PP may in some *small* way deceive LV on Harry's behalf in order to give him an advantage. Will it be the deciding advantage? Possibly, but I personally doubt it. Will it satisfy the debt? I don't know. It depends on what he does. What DOES satisfy a life debt? Is it an "eye for an eye, life for a life" sort of thing? Prof Snape has satisfied his life debt to James by saving/protecting Harry numerous times, assuming that he's able to repay James through his son rather than to James himself - is his life debt satisfied? From kgpopp at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 19:58:51 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 19:58:51 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Essays on Harry SHIPS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125616 Having read the following essays I am less sure about the direction the JK is going with Harry's romantic life and have even become more open to different combination. I thought I'd include the links for those who are interested, these essays outline at lot of "canon evidence" for their particular perspective While I don't rule our a H&H ship, I will confess I personally lean more to the Ron & Hermione as a pair because a) Their attraction or jealousy was more obvious to me. b) I feel a Harry & Hermione paring could make Ron feel like a 3rd wheel c) Even if Hermione is not Ron's true love, it seems he has at least had some interest in Hermione. Therefore out of respect I think it more likely that Harry would not purse a relationship with Hermione. Anyway here are the links, happy reading. Pro Harry & Hermione http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-harry-hermione.html Anti Harry & Hermione http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-hh-suited.html and a little on Harry and Ginny http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-harry-ginny.html From valy1x2 at hotmail.com Sun Mar 6 23:03:15 2005 From: valy1x2 at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?VmFs6XJpZQ==?=) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:03:15 -0000 Subject: who is the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125617 I have a idea about who the HBP is. First, sorry if this already have been discussed, but I've been away from the group for some while because real-life reasons. Well, I have all the reasons to think Snape is the Half-Blood Prince. Apart from some hints/theories/etc, one suddenly popped up in my head, and I find it particulary troubling. Remember while the Occlumency lessons, Snape wanted Harry to call him 'Sir'. Well, since french is my first language, and that we all know JKR taught french, 'Sir', in french, exactly the same word, is an another name for a ROYAL person. (mostly used for kings) Maybe that's incredibly wacko, but I find it troubling. Love, Valy. From catlady at wicca.net Mon Mar 7 01:48:12 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 01:48:12 -0000 Subject: Post Owls / Umbridge Quill / Dragon / The Twins / Royal Ron / Garden Reward? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125618 I wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125328 : << any theory of why Tom and Harry look alike would have to explain why Tom, Harry, and James look alike. >> Is James's middle name Richard? Steve bboyminn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125344 : << I've always speculated that Post Owls (snip) are naturally born with magical ability (snip) Much like House-elves, Owls have their own brand of natural magic that allows them to travel magically fast, over vast distances, and they have a natural gift for finding the recipient of the letters they are asked to deliver. It's also clear that they have intelligence and wisdom far beyond ordinary owls. >> The bright tropical birds from Sirius's warm hiding place between PoA and GoF must have had the same magical abilities. << Another example, Grubbly-Plank points out that Bowtruckles (tree guardians) are most often found in trees whose wood is suitable for wand making. I believe these are trees that are natually enchanted magical trees. That's why their wood is so effective in wand making. >> Do you remember when there was a theory that the trees whose wood is best suited for wand making used to be wizards or witches who turned into trees as result of doing too much wandless magic? << Hedwig has a very natural loyalty and allegiance to Harry, she would not allow herself to be tracked. She would view it as a betrayal of Harry. >> But despite Hedwig's loyalty, GoF!Sirius warned Harry not to send mail to him via Hedwig because it would be too easy for someone to notice that (a) bright white snowy owl(s) not native to Britain kept landing on the same hillside. Thus, my idea that the landing and take-off take place in normal space. Sandra wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125347 : << what about the torturing scenes where Harry has to write lines that are carved into the back of his hand? I hated that so much - it's such a twisted idea in the first place (shame on JKR) >> Kudos to JKR for creativity coming up with the idea, surely so unnatural for her, that affects readers so strongly. << However, the 'lady' responsible was merely exercising her authority. I refer to both writer and character, and feel rather angry about it. >> Umbridge was being EVIL. As I first read that scene, I exclaimed "That pen must be a Dark Magic artifact!" JKR was doing her job as a writer, which is to tell the truth. I don't mean that the wizarding world really exists, but that she set out to write of a conflict between good and evil, in which case the truth is that evil is EVIL, can be seductive, etc. Jen wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr ownups/message/125350 : << I wonder if Harry will use either the skills of battling dragons and merpeople or use the dragons and merpeople themselves to save the WW. >> Many people expect Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback to return. Betsey in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125351 : << we know [Ron's] spider phobia was a lovely gift from the twins >> I am sure that was accident. Was it when Ron was 3 and Fred was 5 that Fred turned his teddy bear into a spider because Ron broke Fred's toy broomstick? Five years old is more the age for unintended wand magic to happen when the wizard child is angry or scared than the age to do Transfiguration with a wand. << And I don't recall either parent doing anything to protect Percy from them. Instead, Molly actively fueled the twins resentment of their brother, using Percy as an instrument to bludgeon them with. >> I think Molly thought she WAS trying to protect Percy from the twins by trying to make them respect him by telling them how good he was. Of course, it didn't work -- can you think of a method that would have worked? MumWeasley wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125399 : << I couldn't figure out why Molly is always giving him things he doesn't like..ie..color of clothing, food...etc. Then I stumbled on the following information about Irish traditions. (snip) The poet tell us that Corned Beef is a delicacy given to a king,(snip) The color Maroon is a color of Royalty. Ron also lives in the Top portion of his house. Would someone like to put all this together? >> And the song throughout OoP, "Weasley is Our King". Sherry wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125539 : << I have been rereading the OOP and came across a line I didn't remember from first reading. Or maybe it just hit me differently. But when Harry is dreaming he dreams of Ron and Ginny in Crowns. >> Oh, I had also forgotten that. Now that you remind me, long ago I read some theory about the Weasleys being the true lineage of the wizarding royal family as foreshadowed by those crowns and that song and such 'royal' family names as Arthur and Ginevra. I think someone suggested that the Half Blood Prince is the son of Ron and Hermione, but such a son will not play a role in HBP unless he is a time traveller from the future. (JKR volunteered in an interview long ago that Hermione will not have a teenage pregnancy.) Finwitch wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125585 : << Tonks/Kingsley/Moody... Tricks! They all play tricks (Garden reward during Draught? The Confundus.) >> I don't understand the above. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 02:32:58 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:32:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy and the Twins (was: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: <20050306064304.16385.qmail@web61208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050307023258.84835.qmail@web20023.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125619 --- Tayla wrote: > > > > Betsy: > Tayla, you'll need to cite some canon of Percy > attacking his family when he first gets his job at > the Ministry, because as far as I can remember, it > didn't happen. The twins are upset because Percy > takes his job seriously, seems to be moving ahead, > and requests some *gasp* quiet so that he can get > some work done while at home. The twins, > apparently, hate the idea of Percy being happy. > > > Tayla Now: > > "I am sorry that I was unable to see more of you > over the summer. SNIP That's not when he first gets his job with the ministry, that's when he gets his promotion. rEBECCA __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 7 02:54:36 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:54:36 -0000 Subject: They're teenagers In-Reply-To: <8d.223f734a.2f5c0aac@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125620 > > (BTW, I don't subscribe to the theory that Snape is mean to > Hermoine because she's Muggleborn, not when it's so easy for > him to resent her because she's a know-it-all, a Gryffindor, and > a close friend of that cursed Harry Potter!) > > Julie > Valky: What then of the very first Potions class? when he simply refused to even let her speak. It couldn't be because she was a know it all, or because she was HP's friend because in Snapes view she was neither at the time. Simply because she was Gryffindor doesn't quite seem enough to me? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 03:01:42 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 03:01:42 -0000 Subject: Percy and the Twins (was: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: <20050307023258.84835.qmail@web20023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125621 Betsy wrote previously : Tayla, you'll need to cite some canon of Percy attacking his family when he first gets his job at the Ministry, because as far as I can remember, it didn't happen. Tayla : "I am sorry that I was unable to see more of you over the summer. "( quotes Percy's letter to Ron in OOP. See upthread) SNIP Rebecca: That's not when he first gets his job with the ministry, that's when he gets his promotion. Alla: Let me see if I can help Tayla out a little bit. :) "Well, Father feels he's got to make up for his mistake at the match, doesn't he?" said Percy. 'If truth be told, he was a tad unwise to make a public statement without clearing it with his head of department first--" - GoF, p.152, paperback. This attack is not as obnoxious as Percy's OOP letter, but slowly but surely Percy is getting there, IMO. Oh, I just want to say again, although it is more in responce to earlier posts in this thread - twins are not, not the only ones who have problem with Percy. They prank him the most, that is true and their pranks are not merciful sometimes, but other Weasleys lose their patience with Percy too quite often and not always in a gentle way. "That woman's got it in for the Ministry of Magic!" said Percy furiously. "Last weeks he was ssaying we're wasting our time quibbling about cauldron thickness, when we should be stamping our vampires! As if it wasn't specifically stated in paragraph twelve of the Guidelines for the treatment of non-wizard part-humans--- "Do us a favor, Perce," said Bill , yawning, "and shut up." - GoF, p.147, paperback. Bill seems to me to be the kind of guy who does not often tells other people to shut up. It seems that Percy got to him too. What also seems interesting to me is that Percy goes off at Rita when she attacks the minsitry, but the moment he learns that his father is mentioned he changes his tune and attacks his father's doings. Just my opinion, Alla From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 03:41:38 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:41:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy and the Twins (was: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050307034138.95007.qmail@web20023.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125622 --- dumbledore11214 wrote: > Oh, I just want to say again, although it is more in > responce to > earlier posts in this thread - twins are not, not > the only ones who > have problem with Percy. They prank him the most, > that is true and > their pranks are not merciful sometimes, but other > Weasleys lose > their patience with Percy too quite often and not > always in a > gentle way. I agree. And about 80% of the time, I think the other Weasleys are the ones in the wrong, not Percy. I think Percy showed good traits that were never aknowledged by his father or siblings. When he did ask good questions (like about the ministry car) he got mocked. They made a "prefect" jab when he was upset when Penelope was petrified and when they do find out about her no one says "wow that must have been hard" or even thinks "gee we misjudged him" but instead get ready to bother him. When he got a girlfriend he hid her for over a year to keep his brothers from harassing her/him. That's a *huge* indcation that something is wrong. It's hard to positive to your family when I can't recall one single incidence of any of them besides Molly treating him with any degree of respect. At best you get a little admiration from Ron in PS. After that they are constantly derisive and dismissive of him. I can't help but think of CoS when the twins immediately leaped to the assumption that Percy being a prefect must have something to do with why he behaved that way when Percy was because of his ego, as they didn't know about Penelope. Likewise, it seems to me that they could once again be operating without all the facts and moving over to the wrong conclusion. I just can't help but notice that so much of the OOTP Percy information is second-hand. It just seems like there has to be a reason for that. Rebecca __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 03:53:13 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 03:53:13 -0000 Subject: Percy and the Twins (was: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: <20050307034138.95007.qmail@web20023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125623 Alla wrote: ... twins are not, not the only ones who have problem with Percy. They prank him the most, that is true and their pranks are not merciful sometimes, but other Weasleys lose their patience with Percy too quite often and not always in a gentle way. Rebecca: > I agree. And about 80% of the time, I think the other > Weasleys are the ones in the wrong, not Percy. Alla: We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think it is the other way around. I think it is incredibly unfair that Percy expects everybody else in the family to adjust to him, but does nothing of the sort himself ( in my opinion only) Rebecca: When he got a girlfriend he hid her for over a year to keep his brothers from harassing her/him. That's a *huge* indcation that something is wrong. Alla: You are absolutely right - this is a HUGE indication that something wrong, but with whom? Your assumption could be totally correct, but I think that Vmonte's assumption can be absolutely correct also - could it be that Percy hid Penelope because he was ashamed of her? Rebecca: I just can't help but notice that so much of the OOTP Percy information is second-hand. It just seems like there has to be a reason for that. Alla: I think we have a lot of first hand information - the above discussed letter and Percy's not being in the hospital. As I said earlier I concede the small possibility of him being a spy, if not, I don't think that not visiting your badly injured father speaks highly of the person. Just my opinion of course, Alla From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 7 01:49:30 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 01:49:30 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' heir and Kreacher References: Message-ID: <422BB32A.000001.01712@KATHRYN> No: HPFGUIDX 125624 Eggplant In book 5 Sirius complains that he has far too much time on his hands and he is on the Ministry's most wanted list AND a member of the Order of the Phoenix, both extremely dangerous organizations to be a member of; so it would seem prudent of him to make out a will, and Harry is the obvious one to leave everything he owned to. Who else, Snape? K And of course during that time he just wandered into a solicitor's office and got them to draw him up a new will ... The only way he could have made a new will was if he did it himself and assuming wizarding wills work similarly to muggle ones, and we don't know they do but if they don't then we have no idea how they work and any speculation is completely pointless with no evidence at all to go on, then he needs someone to witness his signature - which means as soon as the will is made public then someone will want to know why the person witnessing his signature didn't inform the Ministry that they were keeping company with a wanted criminal. I can't think of any way in which he can have made a legal will *that can be made public* without someone getting into trouble over it. And in answer to whoever it was who said that even if Kreacher is tied to a family he would go to Harry if Harry was Sirius' heir - being someone's heir does not make you family. No matter what Harry and Sirius felt on the matter Harry can't become a blood relative. So *if* Kreacher is tied to the Black family then Harry can't inherit him because he's not a Black and never will be -Kreacher would go to Narcissa (if the Order are very unlucky) or Andromeda (if the order catches a lucky break). And as for Kreacher going to Narcissa not being very interesting - you don't think someone who has spent an entire year in a house with members of the Order of the Phoenix coming and going, including Professor Snape, suddenly being in the hands and under the direct control of the wife of a Death Eater is interesting? I think Harry, Albus and Severus might find it a darn sight *more* interesting than they want. K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 05:07:08 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 05:07:08 -0000 Subject: Harry's OWL in Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125625 Brent wrote: > Also, The books end with Harry's seventh year so we might not find out about this [his possible career as an auror] anyway. Actually, we've been told in an interview that there'll be an epilogue revealing what happens to the survivors, so if Harry lives (and I for one believe he will), we'll find out whether he becomes an auror, in which case it *will* matter whether he takes NEWT potions. (Ron also has expressed a strong desire to become an auror and we've never seen him really mess up in Potions class--writing essays is another matter.) And Hermione of course will be in NEWT everything. I think/hope we'll see all three of them in NEWT Potions with Snape, along with Draco (minus his thug companions). Maybe that will be our chance to meet Theo Nott and Blaise Zabini. Carol, looking forward to *those* classroom dynamics From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 05:39:14 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 05:39:14 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Wizzarding-muggles_blood._I_still_don=B4t_get_it!_Help!?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125626 wrote: > > Ok, This is a long question about how a muggle goes about becoming a > wizard. > First question : are wizards-witches part of the human race? A race > that has both muggles and wizards in it?s geneology? > Or are wizards a different species alltogether? > > Which brings me to my most important question: How does a full > blooded muggle (like Hermy) become a witch? > Is it a gene thing or a state of mind? > And if she is a wizard from birth, why isn?t she pure blood? I would > think that anyone born a witch or wizard would be of pure blood... > > And lets say for instance that she were to marry someone like Neville or Draco ( of pure wizard blood), would their children be pure bloods or " mud bloods" because of their grandparents? > So how many generations would it take before they would actually be > pure bloods? Or is Harry considered a pure blood, even though his mother?s parents were ( I think) muggles? Or would he be a half-blood and thus could not be called a mud-blood? Carol responds: I've read the other responses but am going to write my own anyway, with the intention of simplifying matters. Yes, witches and wizards are human, the same species as Muggles. (The people who talk about "racism" in this forum may consider them to be members of different races, but I think they simply have an ability or gift that Muggles lack--magic. The human race, of course, is not a race at all but a species.) Yes, magic appears to be genetically inherited from the parents. Evidently a Muggleborn either has some remote magically ancestor whose magical gene has been dormant for a long time or is the result of a spontaneous mutation. (However, JKR seems to be as confused about genetics as she is about math, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.) No, a half-blood is not a "mudblood." That term is used by purebloods only to refer to Muggleborns. We don't know how many generations it takes for a person to be considered a pureblood (maybe nine, as in Ernie MacMillan's case?). But a halfblood can be of two types--one Muggle parent and one Wizard parent, as in the case of Tom Riddle and Seamus ("I'm half and half") Finnigan or one pureblood parent and one Muggleborn parent, as in Harry's case. How can the child of a witch and a wizard (Harry) be a halfblood? Because two of his grandparents were Muggles and therefore, according to the Slytherin ethic, which is not based on science but on genealogy, their Muggleborn parent has no wizard blood. (Notice that Lucius Malfoy refers to Muggleborn Hermione as "a girl of no wizard family.") Even though Hermione is a Muggleborn (born of Muggle parents and therefore having no wizard blood), she was born magical and her name, like Harry's, was probably "down for Hogwarts" (inscribed in the Hogwarts records with the magical quill) from the moment she was born. If Muggleborn Hermione were to marry pureblood Ron (much more likely than marrying Neville or Draco), their children would be halfbloods like Harry. They would not be "mudbloods" even by Lucius Malfoy's standards. Carol, who really thought this was going to be a short, simple yes-yes-no-type post when she began it! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 06:21:33 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 06:21:33 -0000 Subject: They're teenagers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125627 Julie wrote: > > (BTW, I don't subscribe to the theory that Snape is mean to Hermoine because she's Muggleborn, not when it's so easy for him to resent her because she's a know-it-all, a Gryffindor, and a close friend of that cursed Harry Potter!) Valky responded: > What then of the very first Potions class? when he simply refused to even let her speak. It couldn't be because she was a know it all, or because she was HP's friend because in Snapes view she was neither at the time. Simply because she was Gryffindor doesn't quite seem enough to me? Carol responds: I think it's simply because Hermione was interfering with what he was trying to do. He was interested in what "our new celebrity" did and didn't know, not in receiving the correct answers from another student. It couldn't have been because she was a Muggleborn (how could he have known that?). And she *was* already presenting herself as a know-it-all (though not, of, course as a friend of Harry's). Carol, hoping that she won't be regarded as a know-it-all for pointing out that it's Hermione, not Hermoine From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 06:43:38 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 06:43:38 -0000 Subject: Percy and the Twins (was: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125628 Rebecca wrote: > > When he got a girlfriend he hid her for over a year to keep his brothers from harassing her/him. That's a *huge* indcation that something is wrong. > Alla responded: > > You are absolutely right - this is a HUGE indication that something wrong, but with whom? Your assumption could be totally correct, but I think that Vmonte's assumption can be absolutely correct also - could it be that Percy hid Penelope because he was ashamed of her? Carol notes: But doesn't Percy thrust out his chest to show off his Prefect badge to Penelope in front of his whole family? (A bit odd since she's also a prefect.) And he certainly keeps her photograph in plain sight when the Weasleys and Harry are staying at the Leaky Cauldron in PoA. Remember how photo!Penny hides because Ron spilled water on her photograph and caused a blemish? I don't think Percy is at all ashamed of her, only afraid (in CoS) of being teased. He's aware, of course, that Penelope is a Muggleborn, but he assumes that being a prefect will somehow protect her from being attacked by the basilisk. At any rate, after she's unpetrified, he resumes his relationship with her, openly this time. (See the photo incident above.) I could be all wet here as it's been awhile since I read the books and the chronology of the Percy/Penny relationship isn't entirely clear in my mind. (I do wonder what became of their relationship after they left Hogwarts. IIRC, Penelope isn't mentioned in GoF or OoP.) Carol From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 07:10:24 2005 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:10:24 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's life debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125629 Molley: Ever since I read (and re-read) GoF, I have been disturbed by the fact that Peter Pettigrew's life debt to Harry, considered to be significant at least by DD, was completely disregarded by Pettigrew in the graveyard scene. I know that LV was present and that PP doesn't have the fortitude to defy his master to his face, but did not seem reluctant or hesitant to do what he needed to do except when it came to his own contribution. He matter-of -factly binds Harry to the headstone, draws Harry's blood and even strikes him without so much as giving pause to the implications of what he was doing to this boy to whom he owes his life. Snow: I was a bit frustrated by this as well until I realized that Peter did not mutilate Harry to draw blood. Peter only drew a few droplets of blood could have been much worse. Molley snipped: So . . .what *is* the consequence to not honoring a life debt? Snow: Whole different story here! As in Peter's case, he has yet to repay his debt but he did buy some time in order to accomplish it, I think. The consequences to not repaying the debt must be severe because it is magically binding. Rowling, I'm sure is not going to tell anything about the life debt issue because it would give too much away, right :-) Molley snipped: Prof Snape has satisfied his life debt to James by saving/protecting Harry numerous times, assuming that he's able to repay James through his son rather than to James himself - is his life debt satisfied? Snow: Good question! I don't think he has, which I stated in a past post that this could be the reason Snape had to betray Voldemort. Maybe Snape had to attempt to save James life because of this life debt and that is why Snape went to Dumbledore and told him of Voldemort's plans to seek out the Potters. Once Snape had betrayed his master and/or was tied to this debt there was no going back to Voldemort for Snape and this would be why Dumbledore trusts Severus; Snape can't return! This would make for a very ugly informant. I just can't see Snape deciding that it would be a nice gesture on his part to inform James of any impending doom if he changed sides for any other reason. When Snape changed sides he informed Dumbledore with some valuable information, information that the arrogant James would not totally adhere to (the shrieking shack when Snape made the comment of James arrogance), which made the life debt fulfillment null and void and made Snape a very angry, reluctant informer: "It's coming back Karkaroff's too stronger and clearer than ever " "A connection I could have made without assistance," Dumbledore sighed, "but never mind." GOF U.S. pg. 598 I always read this bit as Dumbledore being frustrated at Snape's lack of adequate information. It might just be me, but I think Dumbledore knows that Snape is trapped between the two sides because of his inability to repay his life debt. Dumbledore can therefore trust Snape because he knows that Snape can never return to Voldemort. It also makes it sensible why so many of us question Snape's loyalty; he's a bad guy that is forced to be a good guy. Just my warped thinking Snow From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 07:21:30 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:21:30 -0000 Subject: Sirius' heir and Kreacher - there's a will and a way In-Reply-To: <422BB32A.000001.01712@KATHRYN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125630 Kathryn --------------- And of course during that time he just wandered into a solicitor's office and got them to draw him up a new will ... The only way he could have made a new will was if he did it himself and assuming wizarding wills work similarly to muggle ones, and we don't know they do but if they don't then we have no idea how they work and any speculation is completely pointless with no evidence at all to go on, then he needs someone to witness his signature - which means as soon as the will is made public then someone will want to know why the person witnessing his signature didn't inform the Ministry that they were keeping company with a wanted criminal. I can't think of any way in which he can have made a legal will *that can be made public* without someone getting into trouble over it. Tinglinger ---------------- When Harry stuck his head in the fire at Grimauld Place to find Sirius and find out more about his dad, the first person he saw was Lupin, who was reading a piece of parchment. We are given no indication of what he was reading, but the possibility that it was a will cannot be discounted. As for witnesses, there are plenty of Order members known to drop in and out of Headquarters at all hours including ministry members Kingsley Shacklebolt and Mr. Weasley, as well as Dumbledore. The old regime at the ministry has been miscredited and carries no weight, so the will should go right through whatever passes for probate in the wizarding world. Kathryn ------------------- And in answer to whoever it was who said that even if Kreacher is tied to a family he would go to Harry if Harry was Sirius' heir - being someone's heir does not make you family. No matter what Harry and Sirius felt on the matter Harry can't become a blood relative. Tinglinger -------------------- If Kreacher is lucky his head is on the wall next to his ancestors. Either he didn't survive DD's interrogation or Dobby will do him in so as not to damage harry's reputation. If Harry himself does Kreacher in, he will set up an interesting rift with Hermione, who seems rather liberal at this point. I will probably elaborate more on these opinions in my Yahoo group potterplots, which I set up a week ago as a forum to examine plot twists in the series. From lsanford at lnls.org Mon Mar 7 08:18:29 2005 From: lsanford at lnls.org (L Sanford) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:18:29 -0600 Subject: All the possible OWLS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125631 I'm trying to figure out what the twelve subjects are in which a Hogworts student can achieve an OWL. So far, I have only managed to come up with 11. Can anyone fill in the blank? Here is what I have: 1. Potions 2. Herbology 3. Transfiguration 4. Charms 5. Defense Against Dark Arts 6. History of Magic 7. Care of Magical Creatures 8. Divination 9. Ancient Runes 10. Astrology 11. Arithmancy From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Mar 7 09:38:48 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 04:38:48 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy and the Twins (was: Weasley Types (was Molly an... Message-ID: <99.59955b52.2f5d7b28@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125632 In a message dated 3/7/2005 1:46:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: But doesn't Percy thrust out his chest to show off his Prefect badge to Penelope in front of his whole family? (A bit odd since she's also a prefect.) And he certainly keeps her photograph in plain sight when the Weasleys and Harry are staying at the Leaky Cauldron in PoA. Remember how photo!Penny hides because Ron spilled water on her photograph and caused a blemish? ------------------------------- Sherrie here: Not much point in trying to hide it anymore at that time - Ginny'd already spilled the Bertie Bott's. And IIRC, it was his Head Boy badge he was showing off. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carol went on: -------------------------------------- Sherrie again: Percy assumes that an office and a badge will protect the holder from consequences - rather like Richard Nixon did, eh? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carol concluded: -------------------------------------- Sherrie again: Given that prejudice against Muggleborns seems to reach rather high into Wizarding society - and into the upper reaches of the Ministry - I'd taken the lack of mention to indicate that Percy had dumped her to keep their relationship from hindering his upward molbility within the Ministry. Just my 2 Knuts - as ever, YMMV. Sherrie (who disliked Percy from the moment we met him) "My best friend is the man who'll give me a book I ain't read." - A. Lincoln [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 7 10:06:28 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:06:28 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125633 "L Sanford" wrote: > I'm trying to figure out what the twelve subjects are .... Here is what I have: > > 1. Potions > 2. Herbology > 3. Transfiguration > 4. Charms > 5. Defense Against Dark Arts > 6. History of Magic > 7. Care of Magical Creatures > 8. Divination > 9. Ancient Runes > 10. Astrology > 11. Arithmancy 12. Muggle Studies Valky From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 10:38:52 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:38:52 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's life debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125634 Snow: > > "It's coming back Karkaroff's too stronger and clearer than ever " > > "A connection I could have made without assistance," Dumbledore > sighed, "but never mind." GOF U.S. pg. 598 > > I always read this bit as Dumbledore being frustrated at Snape's lack > of adequate information. It might just be me, but I think Dumbledore > knows that Snape is trapped between the two sides because of his > inability to repay his life debt. Dumbledore can therefore trust > Snape because he knows that Snape can never return to Voldemort. It > also makes it sensible why so many of us question Snape's loyalty; > he's a bad guy that is forced to be a good guy. Finwitch: That would explain a lot, yes. And er.. doesn't Umbridge now owe Dumbledore a life-debt? Anyway... Pettigrew DOES do little things: he tries to convince Voldemort to use someone else; when Voldemort said ' kill the spare' he killed Cedric (because it was either Cedric or Harry...) and yes, while he did take Harry's blood, it was done in the way that did least damage. Without the life-debt Pettigrew might have cut some main vein and LOADS of blood (making Harry weaker), instead of just getting the little he did. I just wonder WHERE IS THAT RAT? Has anyone seen him since the graveyard scene? Even Harry in a dream? Finwitch From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 7 10:59:03 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:59:03 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125635 Well, as we await HBP, here is yet another thing to ponder: Will the adults ever learn the truth of Umbridge's detentions? If so, what will their reactions be? Now, by introducing such an emotionally charged theme I think JKR has set herself the burden to carry it through. In other words, if she just drops it and we don't see some exploration of this issue, if only a couple of paragraphs, I think she will have failed very badly as a writer. Of course, I also think she will have failed very badly as a writer if she does not give some exploration of DD's thoughts and actions during the 10 years Harry was at the Dursleys. So, put these comments in that context. Harry does have permanent scars from Umbridge's detentions. That may or may not mean anything, however. Sometimes extraneous details are just extraneous details and not set-ups for later plot developments. Lupinlore P.S. Sadly, I don't think we will hear anything about this again. I just don't think JKR, for all her talents in some areas, is a good enough writer in terms of human psychology and emotions to close this kind of theme off convincingly. I think she pretty much knows her own weaknesses, and will avoid this kind of thing like the plague. Or, alternatively, she doesn't think it needs to be closed off, which is very sad indeed. From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 13:16:37 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:16:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's OWL in Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125636 Me: > > Divination? Hmm-mm. Acceptance of death, or questioning > information - > > I'd say pretty important. > > > > GEO: I say it's totally useless. The only thing divination has > taught the students of Hogwarts is that prophecy and predication are > 9/10s wrong. Finwitch: I was talking about the indirect lessons, not tealeaves. (Curiously enough, the one prediction Harry was doing seriously to Ron said that 'You'll suffer but be very happy'. As illogical as that is, it DID happen that year: Ron was very happy to get Scabbers back, but suffered because the rat kept bitting him!) Accepting your death (watch Harry behind the grave-stone) can be important. You don't want to become a ghost, after all. Right now, life has given Harry the other lesson - that of accepting others dying. As Trelawney said 'that thing you dread will indeed happen' - (and Harry's ONLY dread had to do with Sirius getting caught -- losing him, that is). When she made that other 'dread'-prediction, giving a DATE which was accurate - I think that Lavender dreaded *hearing bad news* at that point of the first lesson! Hermione just confused things with that 'did you dread him being eaten by a fox'. Another thing that I find important that could be taken from Trelawney: code-language. You know - if it looks like that sort of underappreciated prediction, no one who's not in the know will pay attention. Like - well, Grim referring to Sirius... (imagine if Sirius didn't die, or managed his way back and Harry needed to tell that to Dumbledore, possibly trough Trelawney. 'I've seen Grim in the future of Harry Potter...'. Or Harry telling Trelawney about 'seeing a grim somewhere. Please tell professor Dumbledore..' -- maybe the intended message would get trough, but - most importantly, Ministry and DEs would NOT be likely to get it. Or if you talk of conjunction of Moon and Sirius (it means Remus and Sirius are together)... Of course, the Centaur (who isn't certain about anything) - well, you MUST question. If an auror believes everything in the Daily Prophet (not that Harry needs any extra for that), well, not good. AND, the prophecies in the DoM ARE real, and they WILL happen, no matter what. You just cannot be certain what they mean. (but knowing this may give you a *clue* to some other things). And the part about errors, mistakes etc. from Firenze. That 'Mars is bright tonight'. Describe what you see, as effectively and objectively as possible. Not a bad practice, either. That's what a witness should give you... and that's what you ought to get from them. Interpreting prophecies and tealeaves & such, well NO. But there ARE tools to be learned in Divination that can be used to find out things. Tools that can best be learned indirectly or by life -- the tea-leaves and such are just a *cover* for the important lessons... Finwitch From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 13:24:10 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:24:10 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's life debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125637 > Molley wrote (snipped): > So . . .what *is* the consequence to not honoring a life debt? > > Snow replied: > Whole different story here! As in Peter's case, he has yet to repay his debt but he did buy some time in order to accomplish it, I think. The consequences to not repaying the debt must be severe because it is magically binding. Hannah weighing in: I've never liked the idea of a 'life debt' being some sort of magical contract that forces those who owe them to repay them. For one thing, it turns an initial act of heroism into something rather more sinister. You could deliberately put someone's life in danger, so that you could save them and thus force them to owe you something (please, please don't let that be the case with the Prank...) As far as I can see, there is no evidence in canon that a 'life debt' is actually a binding magical contract. Nor is there any that it isn't, of course. But I see Snape's determination to repay what he perceives that he owes James as more to doing with Snape's own character and (admittedly somewhat twisted) strong sense of honour. The same, in my mind, could apply to Pettigrew. He doesn't *have* to save Harry, but at some point, his own sense of decency (and yes, I think he probably does have one somewhere, whatever he may have done) may lead him to do so. > Molley continued (snipped): > Prof Snape has satisfied his life debt to James by saving/protecting Harry numerous times, assuming that he's able to repay James through his son rather than to James himself - is his life debt satisfied? > > Snow replied: > Good question! I don't think he has, which I stated in a past post > that this could be the reason Snape had to betray Voldemort. > "It's coming back Karkaroff's too stronger and clearer than ever " > > "A connection I could have made without assistance," Dumbledore > sighed, "but never mind." GOF U.S. pg. 598 > > I always read this bit as Dumbledore being frustrated at Snape's lack of adequate information. It might just be me, but I think Dumbledore knows that Snape is trapped between the two sides because of his inability to repay his life debt. Dumbledore can therefore trust Snape because he knows that Snape can never return to Voldemort. It also makes it sensible why so many of us question Snape's loyalty; he's a bad guy that is forced to be a good guy. Hannah: Well, I hope that Snape isn't a bad guy forced to be a good guy, though I do admit it's a definite possibility. I just want Snape to have changed sides for more honourable reasons than that. I'd never thought about DD's comment in GoF like that, and I see your point. In fact, when you look at it, what is connected with what? It doesn't actually make a lot of sense. I think that here DD is just showing his unhappiness that it is so obvious that LV must be regaining power. I think Snape showing him the returning Mark, presumably without having been asked, is a good sign. He's volunteering information. I think that Snape *has* repaid his life debt to James, if you want to see it as a binding contract. James saved Snape once. Snape saved Harry once. Seems fair to me. The way that Snape has continued to look out for Harry suggests to me that he is not motivated by 'life debt' alone, or if he is, that it is because he personally can't feel satisfied that he has fulfilled it, not because of some sort of magical rules. He wants to go one better than Potter, or two better, or... I mean, he's saved Harry a few times now. Just my (highly biased in favour of Snape) opinion. Hannah From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 13:40:58 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 05:40:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy and the Twins (was: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050307134058.59757.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125638 --- dumbledore11214 wrote: >You are absolutely right - this is a HUGE indication that something >wrong, but with whom? Your assumption could be totally correct, but >I think that Vmonte's assumption can be absolutely correct also - >could it be that Percy hid Penelope because he was ashamed of her? No, I think it's clear from the end of COS when Ginny tells the twins about Penelope that he was trying to keep both of them (P&P) from being pranked by his brothers. Magda __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 13:50:46 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:50:46 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Wizzarding-muggles_blood._I_still_don=B4t_get_it!_Help!?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125639 > > Kemper now: > To kind of answer few of your questions... > > I've recently been thinking about Human Magical Origin as well... > > Growing up in a Judeo/Christian household: God created Man with > flaws and faults (in His own image?). Man had some kids through > Eve. After a while, there were some `birth defects' or `mutations': > children who were `different'. I imagine parents in the early days > of human history (and most likely throughout history) would attempt > to beat the `different' out their kids `for their own good'. MANY > cultures fear the different; it seems reasonable that the Magic > Minority that survived their childhood would move away and hide from > their abusive families, intolerant communities, ignorant churches, > and hurtful et al. End result or beginning is that Purebloods came > from Muggles. > > But > > Growing up in a secular school system: Man evolved from Ape... > survival of the fittest (but who or what created the fittist? > primordial ooze, who created that? from the Big Bang, who created > the thing that was before the that ?) Since there are magical owls, > rats, cats, toads, snakes, why can't there be magical apes? So, > Magical Man evolved from Magical Ape. End result or beginning is > that Purebloods evolved from Metamorphosis (but not like man to > roach). > > Which is it? I don't know, but since many Purebloods seem to have an > aversion to Muggles, I would suspect that the first one MAY be true. Finwitch: Maybe you could look at the various cultures predating Judeo- Christianity - or the Empire of Rome at least. Look at the cultures considered as *primitive*. Each one had some sort of shaman... the Healer, the Necromancer, the Advisor... never the Chief, but the one doing tribe-rituals -- like the funerals... and thus, in a way, MORE important than the Chieftain. Or look at Merlin's position as the king's advisor and teacher. (to Uthor, but certainly to Arthur) I'd say that if you want the magical one, it's the shaman or the healing woman -- anyway, well respected place in the ancient society. That was the place for wizards and witches. Ancient culture respected magical talent, if feared it as well. You just didn't insult the Druid/shaman/Healer/Mystical man... and you had better do as he told you, as well. (as for Muggles today, you DO take orders from your doctor, right? You take the pill as ordered? You - er - don't eat or drink and go take that blood-test in the laboratory... Or give them your urine- sample?... Imagine trying to explain these things to Arthur Weasley who at least would WANT that information, much unlike Malfoys!) Anyway... the wizard had always been there. Always. Finwitch From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 14:02:04 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:02:04 -0000 Subject: They're teenagers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125640 > Julie wrote: > > > (BTW, I don't subscribe to the theory that Snape is mean to > Hermoine because she's Muggleborn, not when it's so easy for him to > resent her because she's a know-it-all, a Gryffindor, and a close > friend of that cursed Harry Potter!) > > Valky responded: > > What then of the very first Potions class? when he simply refused to even let her speak. It couldn't be because she was a know it all, or because she was HP's friend because in Snapes view she was neither at the time. Simply because she was Gryffindor doesn't quite seem enough to me? > > Carol responded: > I think it's simply because Hermione was interfering with what he was trying to do. He was interested in what "our new celebrity" did and didn't know, not in receiving the correct answers from another student. It couldn't have been because she was a Muggleborn (how could he have known that?). And she *was* already presenting herself as a know-it-all (though not, of, course as a friend of Harry's). Hannah now butts in: I agree with Carol here. Hermione's desperation to answer the questions alone was probably enough to irritate Snape. And of course, he didn't *want* the corrrect answers here (and no doubt assumed that no one would know them and try to give them). He wanted to show Harry up. Letting Hermione answer was the last thing he wanted to do. Out of interest, of the five Gryffindor boys in Snape's class (we don't know the blood status of the girls), from what we see, Snape victimises Harry and Neville the most, and Ron quite a bit. Yet Neville and Ron are both pureblood, while Harry is a half-blood. It seems that, of the five, the least-picked-on Gryff boys are Dean (a supposed muggle-born), and Seamus (a half-blood with a full Muggle parent). I can never make up my mind as to what Snape's exact attitude is now to Muggles and Muggle-borns. But generally, I think he can find plenty of reasons to dislike just about everyone without needing to resort to baseless blood prejudice. I don't see him as having any great love of Muggles, and obviously he has to keep up appearances to his DE cronies of not liking them, but there's not a great deal to say he is especially prejudiced either. And who does he appear to hate most in the world? A pair of purebloods, Sirius and James. Hannah, still determined to see Snape in the best possible light, even if it means squinting! From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 14:12:02 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:12:02 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125641 > "L Sanford" wrote: > > > I'm trying to figure out what the twelve subjects are .... Here is > what I have: > > > > 1. Potions > > 2. Herbology > > 3. Transfiguration > > 4. Charms > > 5. Defense Against Dark Arts > > 6. History of Magic > > 7. Care of Magical Creatures > > 8. Divination > > 9. Ancient Runes > > 10. Astrology > > 11. Arithmancy > Valky added: > 12. Muggle Studies Hannah: I should add that there is much debate over exactly how anyone gets 12 OWLs when even Hermione isn't taking all of the above subjects, and nearly had a nervous breakdown when she tried. There are various suggestions, including separate OWLs for practical and theory papers, or double OWLs for higher grades (both of which explanations I personally disagree with). I have a few theories of my own on this. Maybe there are a couple of extra OWL subjects that don't have scheduled lessons, but are cross-curricular for all of the subjects (rather like General Studies in the RL). 'General Magical Theory' or 'Applications of Magical Theory' or something like that. Perhaps just the highly motivated students, such as Percy and Hermione, bother to take it, explaining why Harry has never mentioned it. Another possibility is that the broader subjects (Charms, Transfiguration) have separate OWLs for different areas of the subject, eg. Transfiguration OWL, and Conjuring OWL, something like that, both taught in the same class, and maybe even examined together with separate sections on the same paper (like English Language and Literature in the RL). Another suggestion would be that some of the subjects which Harry doesn't take, such as Arithmancy or Ancient Runes, have an extension element. In the RL, we have Maths and Further Maths (an extra subject for the more able students). So maybe they get Arithmancy and Further Arithmancy. Hannah From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Mar 7 14:24:24 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:24:24 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125642 Lupinlore wrote: > Well, as we await HBP, here is yet another thing to ponder: Will the adults ever learn the truth of Umbridge's detentions? If so, what > will their reactions be? > > Now, by introducing such an emotionally charged theme I think JKR has set herself the burden to carry it through. In other words, if she just drops it and we don't see some exploration of this issue, if only a couple of paragraphs, I think she will have failed very badly as a writer. Potioncat: It isn't unusual at all in a book about about a child/youth that all sorts of unpleasant things happen to that child that the adults in the story never know about. In fact it happens in real life as well. Harry and Hermione (and others) have taken a sort of revenge on Umbridge and are moving on. I think JKR could go either way in the plot, she could have an adult learn about it and react, or she could keep it secret. I don't think it would be a failure on JKR's part if it doesn't come up again. Potioncat From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Mar 7 14:51:55 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:51:55 -0000 Subject: They're teenagers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: Carol: > > I think it's simply because Hermione was interfering with what he > was trying to do. He was interested in what "our new celebrity" did > and didn't know, not in receiving the correct answers from another > student. It couldn't have been because she was a Muggleborn (how > could he have known that?). And she *was* already presenting > herself as a know-it-all (though not, of, course as a friend of > Harry's). Hannah: > I agree with Carol here. Hermione's desperation to answer the > questions alone was probably enough to irritate Snape. And of > course, he didn't *want* the corrrect answers here (and no doubt > assumed that no one would know them and try to give them). He > wanted to show Harry up. Letting Hermione answer was the last > thing he wanted to do. Geoff: I nearly replied to Carol earlier today in connection with Snape wanting to know what Harry did and did not know. I think that Hannah has put her finger on the heart of the matter - he wanted to show Harry up. In my 30 years experience as a teacher, I would never have treated a new pupil in that way. You would find out by putting questions to the group as a whole and trying to vary them so that you got a cross- section of what they knew; they would be coming form several different schools and would be at different points in the work. I still find it surprising after many readings of PS that Snape lets his ill-feeling towards James to allow him to alienate Harry right from the word go. Geoff Visit http://www.aspectsofexmoor.com for views of the Exmoor National Park and the locomotives of the West Somerset Railway. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Mar 7 15:21:51 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:21:51 -0000 Subject: They're teenagers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125644 > Geoff: > I nearly replied to Carol earlier today in connection with Snape > wanting to know what Harry did and did not know.> > I think that Hannah has put her finger on the heart of the matter - > he wanted to show Harry up. snip > I still find it surprising after many readings of PS that Snape lets his ill-feeling towards James to allow him to alienate Harry right from the word go. Potioncat: I think that's correct, he wanted to deflate Potter's head. But I'm not sure what his real motivation was. For that matter, do we need to know the reason? Whatever Snape was thinking prior to the term beginning, by the time of this first Potions class, Harry is being treated like a celebrity. People are craning their necks to see him, people are talking about him. We know Snape is petty and we know he generally thinks the worst of people. I think he believes Harry is just like James. I'm not saying that excuses it, you know. Just that he thinks he is justified. Potioncat From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 15:25:28 2005 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:25:28 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's life debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125645 Molley wrote (snipped): > So . . .what *is* the consequence to not honoring a life debt? > > Snow replied: > Whole different story here! As in Peter's case, he has yet to repay his debt but he did buy some time in order to accomplish it, I think. The consequences to not repaying the debt must be severe because it is magically binding. Hannah weighing in: I've never liked the idea of a 'life debt' being some sort of magical contract that forces those who owe them to repay them. For one thing, it turns an initial act of heroism into something rather more sinister. You could deliberately put someone's life in danger, so that you could save them and thus force them to owe you something (please, please don't let that be the case with the Prank...) As far as I can see, there is no evidence in canon that a 'life debt' is actually a binding magical contract. Nor is there any that it isn't, of course. But I see Snape's determination to repay what he perceives that he owes James as more to doing with Snape's own character and (admittedly somewhat twisted) strong sense of honour. Snow: It is not called a binding magical contract but from the way Dumbledore describes it, this interpretation doesn't seem too far off: "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them " "This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry." POA U.S. pg. 427 The life debt is a deeply impenetrable magical bond between two wizards. This doesn't leave too much leeway for choices to be an option. Hannah snipped: I think that Snape *has* repaid his life debt to James, if you want to see it as a binding contract. James saved Snape once. Snape saved Harry once. Seems fair to me. The way that Snape has continued to look out for Harry suggests to me that he is not motivated by 'life debt' alone, or if he is, that it is because he personally can't feel satisfied that he has fulfilled it, not because of some sort of magical rules. He wants to go one better than Potter, or two better, or... I mean, he's saved Harry a few times now. Just my (highly biased in favour of Snape) opinion Snow: We've never truly been told whether or not Snape had repaid his debt to James but it had been skirted in SS pg. 300 " Funny, the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace " >From this quote it appears that the debt to James was left unresolved, but who knows. Then again, Snape's debt may have been repaid but Snape didn't feel worthy of the repayment because James died. Snape's attempt at repayment did not actually save James and may have left Snape to feel there was no closure as a result and still felt honor bound to Harry. We have never been told what constitutes repayment of a life debt only that the person owes their life to the other one. Again, choice doesn't seem to be much of an option. Another question is what consequences are there for the person who does not abide by the life debt. Lots of questions surrounding the life debt circumstance and very few answers in five books, this leaves me to believe that there must be something significant about the life debt to the plot of the story. As far as being in favor of Snape and his intentions, I'm still left a bit confused. I believe that Snape is on Dumbledore's side wholeheartedly but still question why he made the decision to switch sides in the first place, was it a choice on Snape's part or was he forced to because of his life debt to James? Snow From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 15:35:41 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:35:41 -0000 Subject: Percy and the Twins (was: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125646 Hannah: Replying here to the whole of this thread in general. Apologies if I repeat something someone else has said, this is just my general view on the matter. I'm going to sit on the fence on this one. Percy is pompous, self- obsessed and makes himself a target for his brothers, but I agree that their teasing affects him badly and he ends up having a hard time of it. Likewise, the twins' 'pranks' end up upsetting people and could potentially cause a lot of damage, but I don't see the twins as being malicious. The main problem is the essential difference between the twins and Percy. Percy has no sense of humour. Ron himself puts it very nicely; 'Percy wouldn't recognise a joke if it danced naked in front of him wearing Dobby's tea cosy.' Thus Percy cannot accept the twins' teasing and laugh it off. I see Percy as being very insecure, hence his constant boasting and toadying up to his superiors. After all, he's grown up in the shadow of Bill and Charlie, and probably suffered from a lack of attention once the very demanding twins came along. Fred and George however, strike me as being thick-skinned, secure people, who are able to laugh at themselves. Take their reaction when they are 'pranked' in canon - the beards they grow after they cross the age-line in GoF. They have each other, and are confident enough to go against what their parents want, and start up a joke shop, not to mention all their audacious pranks. The twins do not, IMO, behave maliciously, but they can be insesitive, especially to Percy, whom I don't think they really understand. Percy's reluctance to admit he had a girlfriend is evidence of the effect that their teasing has had on him. The twins teasing isn't exceptionally cruel, it's just that Percy can't take it. Of course, his reactions make it all the more tempting for the twins to continue, and a vicious circle is formed. A similar pattern is seen with Ron and his Quidditch. Ron improves when the twins aren't around. I'm sure that the twins didn't mean to make Ron play badly - or realise that was the effect they had - since they care a lot about that Quidditch cup. But nevertheless, they had that effect. The twins' 'pranking' has been tacitly supported, and even encouraged, by the administration at Hogwarts. Dumbledore has a sense of humour and an obvious fondness for the twins, and no doubts sees no harm in a few little practical jokes. The trouble is when the 'pranks' stop being harmless. Reminds me of another bunch of 'harmless pranksters,' apparently well loved by the staff, who one day went a step too far and nearly killed somebody... Not to mention that their years of 'pranking' permanently damaged and embittered a fellow student - once again, someone without a great sense of humour. Maybe its time that the Hogwarts staff take the behaviour of studnets like Fred and George more seriously, and acknowledge that it's important merry pranksters know when to draw the line. Hannah From melaniertay at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 15:37:14 2005 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:37:14 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125647 Does Harry have "permanent scars"? I as of the impression his hand healed up. Personally, I doubt the adults will find out about it. Harry does not share things with adults easily. I think it would be way too late to the point of feeling "contrived for moral impact" for her to bring it up again. Mel From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:04:46 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:04:46 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's life debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125648 > Molley wrote (snipped): > > So . . .what *is* the consequence to not honoring a life debt? > > > > Snow replied: > > Whole different story here! As in Peter's case, he has yet to > repay his debt but he did buy some time in order to accomplish it, > I think. The consequences to not repaying the debt must be severe > because it is magically binding. > > > Hannah originally: I've never liked the idea of a 'life debt' > being some sort of magical contract that forces those who owe them > to repay them. > As far as I can see, there is no evidence in canon that a 'life > debt' is actually a binding magical contract. Nor is there any that > it isn't, of course. But I see Snape's determination to repay what > he perceives that he owes James as more to doing with Snape's own > character and (admittedly somewhat twisted) strong sense of honour. > > Snow responded: > > It is not called a binding magical contract but from the way > Dumbledore describes it, this interpretation doesn't seem too far off: > > "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who > is in your debt When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it > creates a certain bond between them " > "This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry." POA > U.S. pg. 427 > > The life debt is a deeply impenetrable magical bond between two > wizards. This doesn't leave too much leeway for choices to be an > option. > Hannah: I'd forgotten that line of DD's, Snow. It adds weight to your argument. Perhaps there is such a thing as a contract, indeed, it would seem that there is. I just hope Snape switched sides for reasons other than that. I am doubtful we'll ever get a full explanation of the way that the 'life debt contract' system works. I would translate the quote you give above from the original Rowlingesque as; 'This is magic at its least thought out, its most convenient for plot, Harry.' I'm not trying to diss JKR here, she's a fantastic writer. But she doesn't always have fully thought out coherent explanations for all the magic in her stories. In a way it's good, as it let's us the readers make up our own minds, and debate endlessly. But sometimes it's also a touch frustrating. Of course, if life debts do play a central part in the plot (which they may yet, you're right there), hopefully there will be more explanation as to the mechanism. Or it may remain a mystery. Hannah From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 12:47:41 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:47:41 -0000 Subject: Kreacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125649 Finwitch Now, where IS this house-elf going to end up? Will it be so that he'll go to Narcissa (family-tie) or that he will stay (house-tie). I think it is house-tie, or Kreacher would have gone to Malfoys to stay when Sirius' Mother died. It's the house of Black Kreacher serves. (Note that Narcissa was IN the tapestry... and Bellatrix, too!) He wasn't taking orders from Tonks who had been burned off the tapestry. (And Sirius recognised that as the reason, and then burned ALL the names off it...). But Sirius wasn't in it, either. So why was Kreacher taking orders from him? was it just because Sirius owned the house? Or because Sirius had LIVED in that house until he left at sixteen... Now, about Fred&George.. they *are* related to the Blacks, despite of their not being on the tapestry and I'd imagine those two being thrilled about developing pranks with Mr Padfoot... and Sirius was BORED. I wonder if F&G ever tried to cheer him up a bit? Harry-- I wonder what happens if Harry inherits the house by Sirius' will. Would he be able to order Kreacher around? Or Fred&George if they do? Or Nymphadora Tonks? Finwitch From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 7 17:56:42 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:56:42 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kreacher References: Message-ID: <422C95DA.000001.01748@KATHRYN> No: HPFGUIDX 125650 Finwitch Now, where IS this house-elf going to end up? Will it be so that he'll go to Narcissa (family-tie) or that he will stay (house-tie). I think it is house-tie, or Kreacher would have gone to Malfoys to stay when Sirius' Mother died. K I'm actually on the fence as to whether it's a house or family tie, but for argument sake - perhaps he stayed with the house because the family member who was next in line (Sirius) wasn't dead just imprisoned. Let's just assume a family tie for now and see how it might work (I fully admit that if it turns out to be a house tie then this line of argument won't stand). When Sirius and Regulus are children he is tied to one or other of the parents. When the parents die he would go to the eldest child (who by this point is also the only child as Regulus is dead), but the eldest child (Sirius) is in Azkaban. Now Kreacher cannot go to Azkaban to serve him so he waits in the house (which was presumably the only residence owned by Sirius at the time) until either his master returns or dies, at which time he then passes to the next family member in line, which would actually depend on which parent he had been tied to I think. Sirius and Regulus had no children so if Kreacher was tied to Mr. Black then he would go to the next surviving member on that side - the oldest of Andromeda, Narcissa or Bellatrix - if it's Mrs. Black then I don't know who the nearest surviving member would be, given that she too seemed to be a Black by birth, not just marriage, it might well still be the oldest of those three. If he's tied to the House then he will go to whoever owns that, whether it is Sirius' chosen heir (if he has a legal will somewhere from wither pre or post Azkaban days) or someone else still remains to be seen - it is after all entirely possible that the house can only be inherited by certain people K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 17:58:08 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:58:08 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's life debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125651 > Snow: > From this quote it appears that the debt to James was left > unresolved, but who knows. Then again, Snape's debt may have been > repaid but Snape didn't feel worthy of the repayment because James > died. Snape's attempt at repayment did not actually save James and > may have left Snape to feel there was no closure as a result and > still felt honor bound to Harry. > As far as being in favor of Snape and his intentions, I'm still > left a bit confused. I believe that Snape is on Dumbledore's side > wholeheartedly but still question why he made the decision to > switch sides in the first place, was it a choice on Snape's part > or was he forced to because of his life debt to James? Jen: Wouldn't that just be fitting as Snape's lot in life? He's saddled with this debt to a person he loathes and can never truly, in his own mind anyway, repay it. Regarding Snape's switch to Dumbledore's side and the life-debt, the explanation that most neatly resolves the plot threads in my mind is Snape did indeed attempt to save James & Lily at Godric's Hollow. Maybe it was heroism that drove him to it, maybe a last ditch effort to free himself from Voldemort, perhaps even for purely contractual reasons as Snow suggested up-thread. Whatever drove him to it, Snape's information was summarily rejected by Sirius and/or James, and Snape, in a seething rage no doubt, was forced to watch the Potters die. This scenario explains the vehemence Snape feels toward the arrogance of Sirius and James, and his immediate dislike for Harry when first laying eyes on him. Also covers why Dumbledore trusts him and would explain the "great personal risk" DD refers to in the Pensieve scene. But about Snape's motivation...Hannah mentioned hoping Snape didn't change sides *just* to repay the life debt. This idea bothers me, too. I don't want to think of a life-debt as a 'binding magical contract' like the Goblet. If it's 'magic at its deepest and most impenetrable' and JKR keeps hammering on the idea of Choice--well, it doesn't fit for a life-debt to be some obligatory business deal. Harry chose to save Pettigrew, not only to keep Lupin and Sirius from becoming murderers as he says in the moment, but also because the idea of watching someone die in front of him was abhorrent at some level. We never get a full explanation from Harry about what motivated him to step in front of the wands directed at Peter, but he feels forced to intervene. I'm imagining James felt that same abhorrence at the idea of Snape being fed to a werewolf. I guess the question is whether someone like Peter can feel that same abhorrence? He didn't show that he can at the graveyard, knowing full well what's in store for Harry. (Maybe Peter knew at the time that using Harry's blood in the rebirthing potion would actually weaken LV in the end, but that seems doubtful.) I'm expecting Peter will attempt to save Harry for plot purposes, it's such a nice set-up with so much foreshadowing, but I'd prefer to see his debt left unpaid. That would be a perfect example of how our choices make us who we are, and would lend more credibilty to Snape's choice. Hannah: > I am doubtful we'll ever get a full explanation of the way that > the 'life debt contract' system works. I would translate the > quote you give above from the original Rowlingesque as; 'This is > magic at its least thought out, its most convenient for plot, > Harry.' Jen: *spits out coke from laughing so hard* So true, so true. I suspect your answer is the 'right' one. Jen, who likes the idea that Snape's motives for attempting to save James & Lily (IF attempting to save them) were mixed at best, and downright unprintable at worst. From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 14:14:37 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:14:37 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's life debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125652 Hannah: > I think that Snape *has* repaid his life debt to James, if you want > to see it as a binding contract. James saved Snape once. Snape > saved Harry once. Seems fair to me. The way that Snape has > continued to look out for Harry suggests to me that he is not > motivated by 'life debt' alone, or if he is, that it is because he > personally can't feel satisfied that he has fulfilled it, not > because of some sort of magical rules. He wants to go one better > than Potter, or two better, or... I mean, he's saved Harry a few > times now. Finwitch: Well - Quidditch Pitch. Shared save. Hermione FINISHED it by distracting Quirrell - or maybe Harry managed to pull out the jinx by himself... whereas James acted all alone in saving Snape. ... Fawkes saved Harry in CoS (by healing his wounds). .. third book. Harry saved PP. Sirius saved Harry, Ron et co. (including Snape) by dragging Lupin away. Harry saved their souls (including Snape's) with his Patronus... so er - Snape saving them was repaying to *Harry*. .. fourth - well... Harry warned Cedric about the dragons. Cedric makes an attempt to pay back by giving Harry a clue about the egg (and tells his classmates to be nice to Harry, apparently); Harry saves Cedric from Krum's crucio or, rather, Crouch Jr's-- and then they fight that Acromantula together -- and then they argue about the cup... they keep helping each other, even when they were supposed to be competing! And well... if Harry hadn't made it back, maybe poor Moody would still be in his trunk... and fifth - yes, the life of Arthur Weasley. But what about those who picked him up, and the Healers? I wonder-- how many life-debts have the Healers gained? Is it enough to pay the hospital fee? You know - Healers who heal their patients from otherwise terminal diseases/poisonings/whatever-- they must have gained loads of life-debts... Finwitch From elfundeb at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 18:18:43 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (Debbie) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:18:43 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Discussion Topics (Nel revived) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125653 Our biweekly CHAPTER DISCUSSIONs have come to an end, with five long months remaining until we have new chapters to discuss. What to do? To help pass the time, and to keep our grey matter engaged until new canon arrives, the elves have decided to offer once again (updated for OOP) a series of discussion questions that were first published in JK Rowling's Harry Potter Novels: A Reader's Guide, by Dr. Philip Nel. Dr. Nel is a professor of children's literature at Kansas State University and an occasional poster in the early days of this list. The list first tackled Dr. Nel's questions in the spring of 2002. Since then we have new canon, and while the questions remain relevant, our perspectives on the issues may have changed. The complete list of questions can be found in the files section here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Discussion% 20Summaries/ As before, the post introducing each discussion topic will present the questions in their original form. The discussion leader will then add additional follow-up questions, which reflect what was revealed in OOP, and offer links to relevant past discussions of the topic, including the 2002 discussions. And, yes, we would love volunteers to introduce each of the topics. If you're interested, email me at elfundeb at comcast.net. Here's the planned schedule: March 7 - Question 4: Class and Elitism March 21 - Questions 1 and 2: The House Elves' Enslavement April 4 - Questions 3 and 9: Racial and Gender Politics April 18 - Question 5: The Mystery of Severus Snape May 2 - Question 6: Loyalty and Betrayal - The Case of Peter Pettigrew May 16 - Question 7: Loyalty and Betrayal - The Case of Percy Weasley May 30 - Question 8: The Rule of Law and Breaking the Rules June 13 - Question 10: Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil June 27 - Question 11: Will HP become a Classic? July 11: Question 12: Cross-book foreshadowing and HBP Prediction Derby And here are links to the introductory posts from the earlier discussions: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37242 (Percy) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37577 (Snape) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38049 (classic HP) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38289 (good vs. evil) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38500 (rulebreaking) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39094 (house elves) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/41210 (class) I will post the first discussion topic, Class and Elitism, this afternoon. Stay tuned! Debbie (newly rechristened Speedy Elf) for the List Elves From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 18:39:02 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:39:02 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125654 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > It's the house of Black Kreacher serves. (Note that Narcissa was IN > the tapestry... and Bellatrix, too!) He wasn't taking orders from > Tonks who had been burned off the tapestry. (And Sirius recognised > that as the reason, and then burned ALL the names off it...). GEO: Tonks was never on the tapestry in the first place since Andromeda got burnt off after going off and marrying a muggleborn. > But Sirius wasn't in it, either. So why was Kreacher taking orders > from him? was it just because Sirius owned the house? Or because > Sirius had LIVED in that house until he left at sixteen... GEO: Because Sirius was still part of the House of Black. He was on the tapestry and everything though he was burnt off. Tonks on the other hand was never even part of the tapestry and probably not even recognized by the Blacks as one of them. > Harry-- I wonder what happens if Harry inherits the house by Sirius' > will. Would he be able to order Kreacher around? Or Fred&George if > they do? > Or Nymphadora Tonks? GEO: If Harry was made Sirius's heir then I think Kreacher would probably be forced to obey Harry. Not sure if he just inherited the house from Sirius. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 18:55:16 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:55:16 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's life debt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125655 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > As far as being in favor of Snape and his intentions, I'm still left > a bit confused. I believe that Snape is on Dumbledore's side > wholeheartedly but still question why he made the decision to switch > sides in the first place, was it a choice on Snape's part or was he > forced to because of his life debt to James? GEO: Given the book's emphasis on choices and free will, it seems very likely that Snape switched over to the Order by his own free will rather than because of his debt to James, which couldn't explain why he turned away from the dark arts themselves. From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 19:32:13 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:32:13 -0000 Subject: Sirius' heir and Kreacher. In-Reply-To: <422BB32A.000001.01712@KATHRYN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125656 "Kathryn" > as soon as the will is made > public then someone will want > to know why the person witnessing > his signature didn't inform the > Ministry that they were keeping > company with a wanted criminal. I'll bet one of the first things the new Minister of Magic does in the next book is issue a posthumous pardon to Sirius Black; and I don't think Harry will have trouble with the ministry anymore regardless of what laws he breaks. If you have the ministry's favor as Harry now does you can literally get away with murder and if you don't then they'll put you in Azkaban for spitting on the sidewalk. Law enforcement in the wizard world is not exactly even handed. As for Kreature, I think Harry will be strongly tempted to kill him and the boy has a point. Kreature is an accessory to murder and must be punished and he knows too much to be set free, but Azkaban has no guards. I don't know if Harry will actually kill him but he will certainly think about it. By the way, anybody have an idea of how Kreature injured Buckbeak? Eggplant From pegruppel at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 19:52:11 2005 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:52:11 -0000 Subject: Kafka and The Order of the Phoenix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125657 Some other list members had posted a bit more about Umbridge and that nasty quill of hers, and that set my mind wandering a bit. I thought I remembered, and finally tracked down, what the quill reminded me of. I'm not a literary type, but I do read this, that, and the other thing, and I finally realized where I'd read about a similar device. Not to mention the trial scene in the beginning of OOtP. Franz Kafka's "The Trial" is more harrowing than Harry's trip in front of the Wizengamot, and the implement that I'm sure led to the invention of the quill is the Harrow in "The Penal Colony." In Kafka's work, the machine is an instrument of capital punishment--it cuts the text of the broken commandment in to the prisoner's flesh until he dies. This is not reading for the faint of heart or the weak of stomach. I'm not implying that JKR "stole" the idea, or any such thing. I'm suggesting literary cross-fertilization here. She might not even have remembered exactly where the idea of cutting the "sin" into the flesh of the victim came from herself, at the time she wrote it. I'd bet a nickel that she's read that story, and, like me, remembered something about a machine that wrote on the flesh of a captive, but may not have remembered exactly where. So, any takes on this? Peg From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 19:58:49 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:58:49 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew's life debt. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125658 In book 3 Dumbledore told Harry: "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them " However we now know Dumbledore can be disastrously wrong. One year after Dumbledore spoke those words Pettigrew murdered Harry's friend, tied him to a tombstone, stuffed a dirty rag into his mouth and helped Voldemort torture him. I think Dumbledore is full of beans. Eggplant From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 20:01:28 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:01:28 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS - The Nature of O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125659 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > "L Sanford" wrote: > > > I'm trying to figure out what the twelve subjects are .... Here is > > what I have: > > > > 1. Potions > > 2. Herbology > > 3. Transfiguration > > 4. Charms > > 5. Defense Against Dark Arts > > 6. History of Magic > > 7. Care of Magical Creatures > > 8. Divination > > 9. Ancient Runes > > 10. Astrology > > 11. Arithmancy > > 12. Muggle Studies > > Valky bboyminn: Actually, Astrology is part of Divinations, Astronomy is a separate subject. The core (require by all up to OWLs) subjects are 1.) Charms 2.) Transfiguration 3,) Potions 4.) Herbology 5.) Defense Against Dark Arts 6.) History of Magic 7.) Astronomy 8.) Care of Magical Creatures a.) Broomstick Flying - we don't know the extent of 'Flying' classes since we see and hear of one and only one. Were there more? Did it go beyond the first year? Electives 9.) Divination 10.) Ancient Runes 11.) Arithmacy 12.) Muggle Studies Other than the books needing to include Hagrid in the story, I don't see any reason why 'Care of Magical Creatures' is a manditory subject. Also, Astronomy, while I recognise is a lifelong scientific occupation in the real world, for these students probably could have been required the first three years and elective after that. That would have given the students sufficient background to carry on with Divinations/Astrology, or to continue with Astronomy if they had an on-going interest. Arithmacy is a branch of Numerology, so could we assume that Numerology is a separate, yet unmentioned, subject? Perhaps General Numberology is in included with Divination, whereas Arithmacy, which is a particularly difficult branch of Numberology, is sufficiently complex to stand on it's own as a subject. Just out of curiousity, can we think of any other /magical/ subject that would be likely to be available, but haven't actually been mentioned yet? ...Magical First Aid and/or Medicine? ...various magical trades like wand making, broom making, magical building construction and maintenance? ...magical husbandry/farming? As many of the regulars here already know, it has been speculated that perhaps, OWLs and NEWTs are broken down into sections as in one OWL for Theoretical Charms and one OWL for Applied or Practical Charms. Of course, that can't apply to subjects like History. The problem I have with one OWL per class is that to get 12 OWLs you have to get 'Acceptable' in every single classs subject available. That means you have to take the test for and pass for classes you never took. We see from Hermione's example that it is next to impossible to be able to take every available class. Even if you tried to learn the subject through independant study, you would be overloaded with work. In addition, the /elective/ subjects are not subjects that the average wizard could bluff their way through. Using my best guess for the system of one OWL for Theory and one OWL for /Applied/, I come up with a total of 18 possible OWLs. Two OWLs per - (theory & applied) [total = 12] Charms, Transfiguration, Potions, Herbology, DADA, Astronomy One OWL per - (theory only) [Total = 4] Ancient Runes, Arithmacy, Muggle Studies, History of Magic One OWL per - (applied/pracitacal only) [Total = 2] Divinations, Care of Magical Creatures [TOTAL = 18 possible OWLs] 12 OWLs of 18 is 67% Tangental note - I simply can NOT see Harry making the unrealistic leap from average to outstanding in his Potion OWL. Easily, I can see from average to better than expected, but to /outstanding/ would be fantasy fiction in the extreme. So, either there is a new Potions teacher, or Snape lowers his standard, or Harry simply doesn't take potion. Personally, I'm betting on a new Potions teacher. On a separate but related tangent, I am of the belief that McGonagall list the most likely and best serving subjects to fulfill the 5 NEWTs require to become an Auror. Note that the subject she did list are all core required subjects. I think the aptitude and abilities of the student are of greatest concern, and those aptitudes and abilities must demonstrate good working knowledge of areas necessary to be an effective Auror. Grades in specific subjects are a starting point for this. So to the Auror Entrance Board, does an Outstanding in Herbology and demonstrated ability in DADA carry more weight than an Exceeds Expectations in Potions and no demonstarated ability? My point is that an accumulation of grades, areas of study, general aptitude, and demonstrated ability are the deciding factors and not just specific subjects. Potions is an important area of knowledge for an Auror, but a bank of sufficient working knowledge could be demonstrated in ways other that a Potions NEWT, like an Exceeds Expectations is OWL Potions combined with an Outstanding in NEWT Herbology factored into a demonstrated ability. It's just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 7 20:11:36 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:11:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' heir. . .now Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050307201136.61256.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125660 eggplant9998 said in the RE: Sirius' heir and Kreacher thread I'll bet one of the first things the new Minister of Magic does in the next book is issue a posthumous pardon to Sirius Black; ------------------------- What do you mean "new Minister"? Fudge was still MofM at the end of OOP. Are you making an assumption or is your statement derived from previous conversations in which the consensus was Fudge would be replaced? I haven't been keeping up with the list much until recently due to R.W. concerns. I think Fudge is horrid and would love to see him replaced, but I don't think he will be--not immediately at least--maybe by the middle/end of the book. theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 20:18:39 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:18:39 -0000 Subject: Sirius' heir and Kreacher - there's a will and a way In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > > ...edited... > Tinglinger > -------------------- > If Kreacher is lucky his head is on the wall next to his > ancestors. Either he didn't survive DD's interrogation or > Dobby will do him in so as not to damage harry's reputation. > If Harry himself does Kreacher in, he will set up an > interesting rift with Hermione, who seems rather liberal at > this point. > bboyminn: I have a sneaking suspicion that Dumbledore has already /taken care of/ Kreacher. Dumbledore, after questioning Kreacher, would have realize that not only was he a loose cannon, but a traitor, and as such, felt it necessary to eliminate that bit of evil. This is especially true in light of Sirius's death. Once Sirius died there was nothing to truly tie Kreacher directly to the House of Black. That made Kreacher not only a loose cannon but a free agent with allegience to and control by no one. That's too great a risk to take. So, yes, Kreacher's head in now on the wall next to his ancestors. Although, I think they should take all those heads down; very nasty business if you ask me. On the subject of the Will, I can easily see Sirius creating a hand written Will, and having it witnessed by someone from the Order. However, that Will can not be presented until they prove Sirius is innocent. Then they have to establish that he is dead. Only then can they present the Will. It is very true that whoever Witnessed the signing of the Will would be in trouble for haboring a fugitive. But I think that can be forgiven once it has been firmly establish the Sirius was innocent. I like to see Harry use Rita again to tell the world the truth about Sirius, and thereby set the stage for him being cleared. None of this will happen until Dumbledore and the Order have everything they need to make it proceed to their advantage. Until is serves Dumbledore and the Order, there is no point in letting anyone know that Sirius is dead. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 20:27:26 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:27:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP speculation: The Love Train (was Re: SHIP: Essays on Harry SHIPS) LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125662 kgpopp said: > Having read the following essays I am less sure about the direction > the JK is going with Harry's romantic life and have even become more > open to different combination. I thought I'd include the links for > those who are interested, these essays outline at lot of "canon > evidence" for their particular perspective > > Pro Harry & Hermione >http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-harry-hermione.html > > Anti Harry & Hermione > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-hh-suited.html > > and a little on Harry and Ginny > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-harry-ginny.html Antosha: Those essays are excellent, kg... I've read them numerous times and they've always struck me as thought-provoking. In shipping discussions/flames, we always tend to focus on who's going to end up with whom (which is reasonable). It seems to me that, based on what we've read so far, and based on the fact that the next book is going to be focussing on a group of fifteen and sixteen-year-olds, romance is going to be at the very least an important sub-theme in the next book. I joked about this in a post a while back, but as we get closer to HBP, and as I consider the trajectory left over from OotP and the the first four books, it seems to me that JKR may, in fact, be headed in a different direction entirely. Consider the data we have--all of it fairly sketchy: 1) The two canon crushes--Harry for Cho and Ginny for Harry--seem to have hit major reality checks. We know about H/C; I can safely say we've seen the end of that romance, though I hope Ms. Chang will achieve some sort of redemption in the next book. Harry/Ginny is a bit more problematic. Ginny's been gleefully dating--she went out with Michael Corner, and she says at the end of OotP that she's "chosen" Dean Thomas. Hardcore H/G shippers are fond of theorizing that she's just doing this to get a rise out of Ron, who's not-so-subtly pushing Ginny back towards Harry; the main support for this seems to be the fact that she is described as speaking "vaguely." (OotP, US Ed. p. 866) I'm not sure that this holds water. I think, until we hear otherwise in HBP, we need to take Miss Ginevra at her word: whether she ends up dating him or not, as of the train-ride, Ginny's interested in Dean. Too, we have Hermione's statement that Ginny "gave up" on Harry at some point during GoF. (OotP, US Ed. p. XX) Again, hardcore H/G shippers point out that 'gave up' isn't the same as 'stopped caring.' That's a stronger point, but it remains to be seen whether Ginny has any unresolved feelings for Harry or not. Harry clearly likes Ginny--their relationship, of which he was always very respectful, blossomed during OotP, once he and Ginny could actually talk. Along with Luna and, possibly, Hermione, Ginny is one of the few girls with whom Harry can discuss substantive emotional issues. (You could, if you wish, add Susan Bones to the list, since she and Harry share a brief commiseration over having lost parents to LV. I think that's stretching matters a bit.) Mostly, Ginny keeps Harry honest, something he desperately needs. We don't, however, have any evidence that he is attracted to her, or considers her romantically. Then again, aside from Cho, Harry hasn't shown any interest in _any_one. However, I would be shocked if a relationship which collected so much energy in books 2, 3 and 4 (you can even PS/SS if you view Ginny's interest at Platform 9 3/4 as serious) would simply fade away. It would be a waste of a good story line. 2) From the Yule Ball in GoF on, Ron is extremely protective of Hermione, to the point of jealousy. The main factor here is his harping in both GoF and OotP on Viktor Krum's interest in Hermione. About the only canon evidence of reciprocal interest (aside from Hermione's constant bickering with Ron, which some see as a Benedick/Beatrice mating ritual) is Parvati Patil's suggesting Hermione as a suitable date for Ron to take to the ball; Parvati either knows something or is being mischievous. (GoF, US Ed. p. 401) The films seem to have a stronger investment in R/Hr. But, as we know, as far as this list goes, the films aren't canon. ;-) 3) Luna acts differently towards Ron than she acts around anyone else. She laughs at his jokes. She calls him by his full name, which no one but his mother does. And it's not simply a matter of her always using full names; she calls Ron's sister (her friend) "Ginny." The Lovegoods (or, at least, _some_ Lovegoods) live near Ottery St. Catchpole, so it is not too much to assume that Ron and Luna have known each other for some time. Ron seems barely aware and more non-plussed than interested in Luna as of OotP. 4) Neville asked first Hermione and then Ginny to the Yule Ball. There are some other bits of weak canon evidence scattered in there--the odd mention, the occasional kiss on the cheek, etc. (Sorry, H/Hr shippers--I believe the relationship is possible, but I don't see any canon evidence for it... yet.) And there are, of course, some budding relationships away from the core characters. The other bit of evidence that I can propose--and it's not much--is JKR's love of the novels of Jane Austen, which center around wonderfully spun-out tales of unrequited love, unexpected triangles, and which inevitably end with the central characters, who have been either chasing the wrong people or in love but unwilling to admit it to the right people, finally getting a clue. Taken together, this leads me to suppose that HBP--which isn't the conclusion of the series, let us remind ourselves--isn't going to resemble Noah's Ark, wherein the couples come in two-by-two, but rather the Love Train: a loves b who loves c who loves.... It seems likely, given what JKR left us with at the end of the fifth book, that we will see some variation on the following: Neville will have a crush on Ginny, who will, after flirting with Dean, realize that her feelings for Harry aren't really all gone, while Harry will develop an infatuation with Luna (I think their conversation during the Farewell Feast will have a profound effect on Harry in HBP), who will pine for Ron, who will long for Hermione, who will... Oh, I don't know. Here I assume we will either see Hermione fighting against the Parvati/Lavenderness of it all, or we will see the introduction of a new character into the mix--probably a Hufflepuff or Slytherin boy, since we've already got Gryffindors and a Ravenclaw. Perhaps Theo Nott will join the DA, inspire Hermione's affections through his studiousness and such, while he will fall for Susan Bones... who will, of course, be harboring a long-standing passion for Neville. Which would tie things up quite nicely. Equally possible would be a more painful scenario in which Luna longs for Ron who longs for Hermione who longs (oh, the angst!) for Harry, who longs (oh, the irony!) for Ginny, who longs for Dean (as she's told us already), who longs for a Hufflepuff or Slytherin girl. Daphne Greengrass? Susan Bones? Hannah Abbott? I really would not be surprised to see the DA turn into Payton Place for a while, with romantic chaos reigning (as the battle against the forces of evil continues) until some semblance of order begins to assert itself at the end of the sixth book--just to keep us from screaming too loudly as we wait for the seventh! Antosha, who still believes that we're unlikely to see any homosexual relationships in canon, but would greatly welcome such... if only for variety and verisimilitude's sake. From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 7 20:35:29 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:35:29 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' heir and Kreacher - there's a will and a way References: Message-ID: <422CBB11.000001.00216@KATHRYN> No: HPFGUIDX 125663 bboyminn: I have a sneaking suspicion that Dumbledore has already /taken care of/ Kreacher. Dumbledore, after questioning Kreacher, would have realize that not only was he a loose cannon, but a traitor, and as such, felt it necessary to eliminate that bit of evil. K How can Kreacher be a traitor - he's never made any pretence of being loyal to the Order. An enemy certainly, but not a traitor. You cannot betray someone you never supported. K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 20:42:06 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:42:06 -0000 Subject: Sirius' heir and Kreacher - there's a will and a way In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125664 > bboyminn: > > This is especially true in light of Sirius's death. Once Sirius died > there was nothing to truly tie Kreacher directly to the House of > Black. > On the subject of the Will, I can easily see Sirius creating a hand > written Will, and having it witnessed by someone from the Order. > However, that Will can not be presented until they prove Sirius is > innocent. Then they have to establish that he is dead. Only then can > they present the Will. It is very true that whoever Witnessed the > signing of the Will would be in trouble for haboring a fugitive. But I > think that can be forgiven once it has been firmly establish the > Sirius was innocent. I like to see Harry use Rita again to tell the > world the truth about Sirius, and thereby set the stage for him being > cleared. > Being guilty of a crime has no bearing on the legality of a will. Sirius didn't lose his right to the Black family estate when he went to Azkaban, therefore he would have been entitled to dispose of it--and its belongings (including the despised Kreature, much to Hermione's disgust)--as he saw fit. No, the problem has more to do with proving he died. Though Kingsley and Tonks were there as credible witnesses, if it comes to that. Kreature is bound to the house, not the owner (though the bind is clearly a loose and chaffing one). Therefore, the house elf would (if still alive) move with the house into the possession of Sirius's heir: most likely Harry, Remus or Tonks, if he left a will, and Bellatrix Lestrange if he didn't. So the Kreature Problem must be dealt with in HBP, one way or another.... From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 20:44:48 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:44:48 -0000 Subject: Sirius' heir and Kreacher - there's a will and a way In-Reply-To: <422CBB11.000001.00216@KATHRYN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125665 > K > > How can Kreacher be a traitor - he's never made any pretence of being loyal > to the Order. An enemy certainly, but not a traitor. You cannot betray > someone you never supported. > > K > > He was a traitor to the House of Black, of which Sirius was the last name-bearer. He may have seen himself as favoring one faction (the Malfoy-Lestranges) over another (the Black- Tonkses), but it's still 'low' treason. Antosha From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 21:02:56 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:02:56 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125666 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > Well, as we await HBP, here is yet another thing to ponder: Will the > adults ever learn the truth of Umbridge's detentions? If so, what > will their reactions be? > > ...edited... > > Lupinlore > > > P.S. Sadly, I don't think we will hear anything about this again. I > just don't think JKR, for all her talents in some areas, is a good > enough writer in terms of human psychology and emotions to close > this kind of theme off convincingly. ...edited... bboyminn: I somewhat agree, I don't think specific to Umbridge sending the Dementors after Harry or using the /cutting quill/, that we will see these things addressed directly. I think we and the characters (H/R/H) will get our satisfaction in seeing Fudge and Umbridge fall into disgrace for the handling of the /Voldemort affair/. In addition, I can see the potential for Umbrdige to start to get a little /high and mighty/ again in an attempt to redeem herself in the public's eye. Something along the line of, well, we may have made a small error in judgement, but Dumbledore this! and Harry that!. At which time Harry and/or Hermione will remind Umbridge that they have enough on her to put her in prison for good, and if she knows what's good for her she will shut-up and accept her disgrace. In this way, Umbridge will become weak, powerless, and disgraced, and Harry will now, suddenly, be the one in the position of power and control. I'm confident Harry will handle the power much better than Umbridge who had elevated herself to god-like status in her own mind. Remember the old saying, Power corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely. In this scenerio, we the readers, get to see Umbridge punished by fate for her trangression, and in addition, get once again see Harry in the heroes light. To see that he truly is a far far better person than those who see power, position, and status. So, the resolution will occur in a small, perhaps 'in passing', side story as part of the process of Fudge and Umbridge falling into disgrace, in a sense, at their own hand. The extension of that, and Harry's interaction with the events, will be another opportunity for us to see Harry for the great person that he is. In this method, the author can give us, the readers, and the characters a sense of satisfaction and justice without being bogged down in a long side track. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 21:05:41 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:05:41 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS - The Nature of O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Other than the books needing to include Hagrid in the story, I don't > see any reason why 'Care of Magical Creatures' is a manditory subject. GEO: Actually I think CoMC is not a mandatory subject and is more of an elective though it seems a good portion of the student population that we know of take the subject. From elfundeb at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 21:23:44 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (Debbie) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:23:44 -0000 Subject: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125668 Yahoomort is at it again. I sent this hours ago and it still didn't arrive on the list, so I'm resending. Here we are -- the first in a series of discussion questions raised by Dr. Philip Nel in his pre-OOP readers guide to the HP novels, discussed on-list in 2002. Dr. Nel's question #4 asks: "Do the novels critique or sustain a class system? Are 'wizards,' as Pico Ayer suggests, 'only regular Muggles who've been to the right school'? Because Hogwarts is only available only to those privileged enough to be wizards, is it an elitist school? Or, because Malfoy's snobby attitude is not presented sympathetically, is Hogwarts actually anti-elitist?" Porphyria's introduction to the 2002 discussion is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/41210 Here's link to the Pico Ayer article: New York Times: "The Playing Fields of Hogwarts" by Pico Iyer (10 Oct. 1999) http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/10/10/bookend/bookend.html The author asserts that "there is a somewhat sinister clannishness that makes all these private academies seem like secret societies . . . designed to train the elite in a system that other mortals cannot follow." Porphyria also asked some excellent follow-up questions, to which I can add little except to point to elements of OOP that may be relevant to the questions: 1. What can we say about the Muggle/Wizard distinction? Is it fundamentally elitist that Muggles are incapable of becoming Wizards? 2. Is there anything wrong with the books' depiction of Muggles? Do they unfairly bear the brunt of hostility? The Dursleys are a satire of the petit bourgeoisie -- social climbers. But isn't Harry a social climber? Is Hermione? Do the books associate sadism and pettiness with the middle class via the Dursleys? What about the books' attitude towards Squibs? Do we find Filch more or less sympathetic when we discover this about him? OOP addition: What about the revelation that Arabella Figg is a Squib and her experience at Harry's hearing? Is there a distinction between the books' attitude toward Squibs and the Ministry's attitude? Is JKR successful in making this distinction? Do OOP's revelations about Petunia make her more than a satire of the upward climbing petit bourgeoisie? And what about the Evans family? Is their apparent favoritism toward Lily another example of elitism? 3. Is Hogwarts an elitist institution? Does its resemblance to Eton, with its cliquish houses, weird sports, funny uniforms and symbolic, honor-based competitions replicate the elitist values of the British Empire, critique them, or even satirize them? OOP Addition: Does the Sorting Hat's new song, with its descriptions of what the founders were looking for in students, and its plea for house unity, refocus our attention on elitism? What light, if any, does the new song shed on whether the Etonesque characteristics of Hogwarts are meant as approval, critique or satire? 4. Is Harry a member of the elite, even among Wizards? In which ways is he privileged by birth, inheritance, exceptional 'natural' talent or special treatment from powerful benefactors? 5. Is there an inconsistency in the way that the books treat the problem of Blood vs. Choice? On the one hand, I think most of us would agree that Dumbledore explains the moral of the books to Harry in CoS: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Yet the text also stresses the power of blood relations in character forming: both the Weasleys *and* the Malfoys mention that their entire family was sorted into the same house and the books are rife with examples of students who take after their fathers, Harry included -- and he might even be the heir of Gryffindor. How do we resolve these contradictions, or can we? OOP Addition: What about Sirius, who rejected his blood relations? Is he merely the exception that proves the rule or a reaffirmation of the importance of choice? 6. How do the books explicitly explore the problem of bigotry and elitism? I'm always amused at Draco's multifarious reasons for condemning his opponents: Ron is poor, Hermione is Muggle-born, Hagrid is a servant, and Harry, heaven forbid, keeps the wrong company. [snipped] Do the books' genuine attempts at criticizing elitism confront or ironicize the ways that they also support elitism? Or do the books' progressive views simply clash with their conservative ones? And a further question: Much discussion pre-OOP focused on Stan Shunpike, his working-class accent, and whether Harry's failure to recognize him indicated that Hogwarts itself was reserved for elite wizards. In OOP we learned more about the importance of OWLs to whether a wizard may continue in a particular subject, and JKR confirmed on her website that anyone with magical ability may attend Hogwarts. Do these revelations impact the validity of those arguments? Or do they point more strongly to a subconscious middle class bias on JKR's part? Porphyria's post includes links to early group discussions of class issues. She also linked to this article: Voice of the Turtle: "Harry Potter and the closet conservative" by Richard Adams (31 May 2001) http://www.voiceoftheturtle.org/reviews/books/richard_potter.shtml Unfortunately, the article appears to have been taken down (though I've left the link in case it was temporarily unavailable), but Elkins' response elaborated on the Adams' points: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/41399 And for a different POV, see Pip's response to Elkins: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/41407 There were many other good posts in this thread that are well worth rereading, too. And, a couple of subsequent discussions on classism at Hogwarts and in the WW generally: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45547 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45548 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45613 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46018 Strangely, there seems to have been very little discussion of class issues since OOP was published. Here are links to the few discussions I found: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/119793 David points out that JKR's website response to the Stan Shunpike question leaves open the question of class in the WW as a whole. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/63264 Milz comments on the elitism of the founders (except for Helga Hufflepuff) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/118178 JustCarol speculates on the education of Stan Shunpike and Tom (the Leaky Cauldron bartender). http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/114938 Eloise discusses the difficulty of sorting out the caricatures from the social commentary. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/120332 iris_ft compares the Dursley's and Voldemort's attitudes. And on a somewhat related theme, Shaun Hately wrote an essay comparing and contrasting Hogwarts and English public schools. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105610 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/108762 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/124709 A thread discussing whether the WW, or just Voldemort, is fascist: That should be more than enough reading to get started. Have at it! Debbie For a complete list of the discussion questions, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Discussion% 20Summaries/ For the schedule, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125653 And if you'd like to introduce a discussion topic, email me at elfundeb at comcast.net From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 21:29:59 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:29:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Remus John Lupin Message-ID: <20050307212959.28755.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125669 Most of us really like Remus John Lupin. He's a very good teacher, and he's kind to Harry and Neville. He teaches Harry a charm that saves his life several times: the patronus. He is extremely flawed, which makes us sympathise with him, but at the same time fills us with revulsion: he's a werewolf. Have you ever noticed how often Jo mentions his greying hair? It's five times, actually, plus once when she mentions his "grey face". This is what gave me the clue that he's the equivalent to the grey king in "The Alchemical Wedding". This king is described as "a very old king with a grey beard". There, the grey king personifies the opposite force to the black king. That's Snape, whom I discussed in my previous post. If Snape personifies our shadow side, it's obvious that Lupin personifies the opposite. Why is he grey? Grey is the symbol of ripeness of experience. The microcosm of a person going the Path of Liberation has an extremely long journey behind it. It's "old" in terms of having been through every possible kind of experience and having learned a great deal from that. Grey is also the opposite of black here. As I said in my last post, in this time-spatial universe nothing is pure white, i.e. good in the absolute sense. Everything here, no matter how good, is flawed. We know that Lupin is extremely flawed. Through no fault of his own he was bitten by a werewolf as a child. I'm not sure why Jo has chosen lycanthropy as Lupin's flaw. It may be just a plot device to set up the marauders. That works extremely effectively, as I'm sure we all agree. It explains why James was a stag, Peter a rat, and Sirius a dog. I think the most essential thing was to give James the ability to turn into a stag, as that is the symbol for the longing for liberation. Making Peter a rat was extremely effective, as his physical presence on Ron's body really emphasised his attachment to the old earthly personality. Making Sirius a dog was very suitable for allowing him to escape from prison and to sneak around Hogwarts, and the dog is obvious from Sirius' nickname as the "dog star". There may be a deeper meaning behind Lupin's lycanthropy, but the main point is that Lupin is very flawed, as is every type of goodness on earth. For one thing, there is no definition of what is "good". It's very subjective and usually we define as "good" whatever promotes our desires and "bad" as whatever thwarts them. In fact we can only get a clear idea of goodness by comparing it to evil. It's been discussed many times that without evil, there would be no good. Good and evil really hold each other in balance in this world. However the main point is that we're all living in a "prison" outside of the real world. Our destination is not INSIDE the prison but OUTSIDE of it! Hence whatever we do inside the prison is only of temporary benefit. The prisoners can help each other or make things even more miserable than they are, but their one and only task is to get OUT of the prison. And now I'm going to say something really shocking and controversial. If our task is to get out, but many do gooders in the prison are working to make life as comfortable as possible under the circumstances, trying to forget the bad conditions, trying to forget the radiant world of sunshine, fresh air and glorious FREEDOM outside of the prison, then is that not actually bad? In the opinion of the prisoners these do gooders are making life in the prison less unbearable, and so they're considered good, but in actual fact they're "drugging" the prisoners into forgetting about liberation, which is their one and only purpose. So doing good may seem wonderful from one point of view, but extremely evil from another. And so that's another aspect of the grey king. Fortunately this is one thing Lupin doesn't do! For does he not teach Harry to invoke the patronus? In the apprentice alchemist, Remus John Lupin personifies the force which realises the impotence of its goodness, the flawed nature of itself, and so encourages the new soul to long for the fresh, cool, clear Living Water, which will refresh it, give it new courage, and drive off the forces that oppose it. And so we can see that Remus has the lightest shade of grey possible in this world. He was a friend of James the stag and Lily the priceless flower of eternal life. He cares greatly for their son, the new eternal soul and helps him as much as possible. He teaches him to concentrate his longing for liberation so much that it becomes an all-conquering force that can overcome the soul's attachment to the astral plane of the fallen universe. This longing for liberation comes from a strong desire for a goodness which has no opposite as it does in this world. The Good in the Real World has no opposite; it is not bipolar but leads to the Absolute Life in the Ineffable Heights of the Father, the Potter of the Universe. As I said in my last post, in "The Alchemical Wedding" the grey king has a wife who is very young and vital. This symbolises the wonderful new opportunity the good side of the candidate has to surrender itself to the new soul and so enter permanent Good. In "The Alchemical Wedding" both the black king and the grey king and their wives voluntarily submit to decapitation. This symbolises the end of relative evil and relative goodness in the candidate. However their death is the same as the death of the phoenix: it is followed by a glorious resurrection of a new human being, the Son of the great Architect. This is the homecoming of the prodigal son to the Father, who shows greater honour to the one who has fallen than to the one who stayed at home! Finally, once again I want to point out that Sirius' three friends were called James (Potter), Peter (Pettigrew) and (Remus) John (Lupin), while Jesus' best three disciples were James, John and Peter. I believe this is of the utmost importance in realising what Harry Potter is really all about. Jo's flag is firmly nailed to the mast, in my opinion. May the world soon wake up to this! "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From kcawte at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 7 21:30:57 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:30:57 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' heir and Kreacher - there's a will and a way References: Message-ID: <422CC811.000001.01840@KATHRYN> No: HPFGUIDX 125670 antoshachekhonte Being guilty of a crime has no bearing on the legality of a will. Sirius didn't lose his right to the Black family estate when he went to Azkaban, therefore he would have been entitled to dispose of it--and its belongings (including the despised Kreature, much to Hermione's disgust)--as he saw fit. No, the problem has more to do with proving he died. Though Kingsley and Tonks were there as credible witnesses, if it comes to that. Kreature is bound to the house, not the owner (though the bind is clearly a loose and chaffing one). Therefore, the house elf would (if still alive) move with the house into the possession of Sirius's heir: most likely Harry, Remus or Tonks, if he left a will, and Bellatrix Lestrange if he didn't. So the Kreature Problem must be dealt with in HBP, one way or another.... K The problem with presenting the will before he is cleared comes not from it s legality or otherwise (I agree it would be perfectly legal) but from the fact that whoever witnessed it and/or is keeping hold of it would be admitting that they knew Sirius' whereabouts for at least some of the time and didn't turn him in. I'm fairly certain that hiding an excaped convict is a crime. And we don't *know* that Kreacher is bound to the house rather than the family - that's a theory not a canonical fact. K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 21:58:20 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:58:20 -0000 Subject: Sirius' heir and Kreacher - there's a will and a way In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125671 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > > > bboyminn: > > > > > This is especially true in light of Sirius's death. Once Sirius > > died there was nothing to truly tie Kreacher directly to the House > > of Black. > > > > On the subject of the Will, I can easily see Sirius creating a > > hand written Will, and having it witnessed by someone from the > > Order. However, that Will can not be presented until they prove > > Sirius is innocent. ...edited... > > > antoshachekhonte: > > Being guilty of a crime has no bearing on the legality of a will. > Sirius didn't lose his right to the Black family estate when he went > to Azkaban, ... > bboyminn: You are absolutely right, being a criminal doesn't affect your ability to control the disposition of your property in the event of your death (ignoring entailments for the moment). But, in this circumstance, Sirius being criminal does affect the wisdom of Dumbledore presenting that Will for consideration. Also, being a criminal could affect the preceived validity of a handwrittnen Will, when there are standards for the disposition of estate property. It is likely, more on this later, that the standard of disposition of an estate favors the first born male child. That's very common in Europe, it keeps the estate from being diluted. Also, as noted, the presentation of the Will of an escaped prisoner can potentially cause legal problems for the people who witness (by signature) that Will. > antoshachekhonte continues: > > No, the problem has more to do with proving he died. Though Kingsley > and Tonks were there as credible witnesses, if it comes to that. > bboyminn: Again, there is no reason to do anything until Dumbledore is in a position to make revealing Sirius's death work to his strategic advantage. Currently, his strategic advantage is best served by letting people think Sirius is alive. When he has taken the proper actions, and at the proper time, Dumbledore can set about proving Sirius is innocent. That lays the ground work to then establishing that Sirius is dead. Prior to establishing Sirius's innocents, the Auror who witnessed his death, and those who, by signature, witnessed the Will would all be in deep trouble if they revealed what they knew. So, establishing Sirius's innocents, opens the door for these witnesses to speak up with out fear of prosecution. Dumbledore will manipulate this situation very carefully. He will work every stage, and only reveal each detail as it suits his best strategic advantage. That's the only way to serve the Order, the cause, and protect innocent people. > antoshachekhonte continues: > > Kreature is bound to the house, not the owner (though the bind is > clearly a loose and chaffing one). Therefore, the house elf would > ... move with the house into the possession of Sirius's heir: most > likely Harry, ... bboyminn: First, although you seem to understand, let's make a distinction between the house that Black owns, and the House of Black. Kreacher is bound by the nature of his enslavement to the House of Black, to the direct patriarchal line of decendancy and accendancy of the immediate Black family. His enslavement is tied to the son (Sirius) by way of the father by the grandfather through the great grandfather and so on for as far back as Kreacher's family attachment to the House of Black goes. True Sirius says that Kreacher is required to obey all members of the Black family, but that is out of loyalty to the family. Kreacher is specifically owned or bound to the immediate and direct line of Blacks that passes through and sadly ends with Sirius. Kreacher may have loyalty to Narcissa Malfoy, and may be willing to transfer his enslavement to her, which is really to the House of Malfoy, but Kreacher is not bound to Narcissa in the absents of any bond of enslavement to the direct male heir of the Black family. In the absents of Sirius, Kreacher is a free agent who is free to transfer his loyalty and enslavement to another branch of the family tree. Keep in mind that while there are still living members of the Black family, the 'House of Black' died with Sirius; the House of Tonks, LeStrange, and Malfoy continue on. In the absents of a controlling Will, the Estate of the House of Black will probably be absorbed into these other houses. Although, I have speculated that since the House of Malfoy has a primary male heir with Black blood, he will probably be given priority in the inheritance of the Black Family Estate. That makes the fight for the Estate, a fight between Harry (via the Will) and Malfoy (via entailment). Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Mar 7 22:54:30 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:54:30 -0000 Subject: Percy and the Twins (was: Weasley Types (was Molly an... In-Reply-To: <99.59955b52.2f5d7b28@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > -------------------------------------- > Sherrie again: > > Given that prejudice against Muggleborns seems to reach rather high into > Wizarding society - and into the upper reaches of the Ministry - I'd taken the > lack of mention to indicate that Percy had dumped her to keep their > relationship from hindering his upward molbility within the Ministry. > > Just my 2 Knuts - as ever, YMMV. Hickengruendler: Why? Isn't it possible, that they just broke up, like most school times do at some time? Granted, it's a bit different in the Potter world, with Lily/James and Arthur/Molly being married, but still it's nothing unusual to break with your teenage girlfriend. IMO, Percy has a worse reputation than he deserves. Granted, he has some grave faults, for example a complete lack of of humor. But when reading some scenes of the books, I frequently get more annoyed by the twins, because they always teased him. My opinion is, that if you know someone who lacks the ability to laugh at himself, then you should let him in peace and seek some victims, who share your sense of humor. And at least by book 4 the twins should have been old enough to realize this. Or maybe it is because the twins are generally liked in fandom, because they are nice and charming people, and I tend to feel sorry for the outsider, but if I were Percy, I would have run away from these brothers, too. And I think, just like book 5 made clear, how cruel and heartless James Potter and Sirius (yes, I know, they were teenagers) could be, we will learn in later books that the twins can be similarly awful, if we see it through the eyes of the victim. And we shouldn't forget, that Percy very probably didn't know how gravely wounded Arthur was. The morning after Harry's dream it was already clear, that Arthur would survive. And I don't think that Percy knew about the incident at this time, since the Weasleys had other things to worry about at this point. Therefore when Percy learned about it, he probably only heard that ARthur was wounded on the leg. Still it wasn't nice to ignore his family and not to visit Arthur, but it's not that Mr Weasley was still on his deathbed when Percy learned, what happened. Hickengruendler From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 23:13:27 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:13:27 -0000 Subject: Post Owls / Umbridge Quill / Dragon / The Twins / Royal Ron / Garden Reward? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125674 >>Betsy: >...we know [Ron's] spider phobia was a lovely gift from the twins...< >>Catlady: >I am sure that was accident. Was it when Ron was 3 and Fred was 5 that Fred turned his teddy bear into a spider because Ron broke Fred's toy broomstick? Five years old is more the age for unintended wand magic to happen when the wizard child is angry or scared than the age to do Transfiguration with a wand.< Betsy: Yeah, I'm sure you're right about it being an accident. I didn't think through the ages, but now you've pointed it out I'm sure Fred got angry at Ron and *presto*, Ron's clutching a large, hairy spider. Still rather icky for poor Ron, but not malicious on Fred's part. >>Betsy: >And I don't recall either parent doing anything to protect Percy from them. Instead, Molly actively fueled the twins resentment of their brother, using Percy as an instrument to bludgeon them with.< >>Catlady: >I think Molly thought she WAS trying to protect Percy from the twins by trying to make them respect him by telling them how good he was. Of course, it didn't work -- can you think of a method that would have worked?< Betsy: Ooh! Way to call me on my cynical criticizing! Much easier to just throw stones than actually think up alternatives, but I'll give it a shot. For one thing, I'm not sure Molly was worried about protecting Percy. And if she was I think she thought her non-stop yelling at the twins would have been enough. I think, when it came to Percy and the twins, Molly never realized how much the twins were hurting Percy. I mean he *is* rather pompous and I think he'd cover his pain in a series of lectures or long winded complaints. I think Molly saw Percy as her easy child and recruited him to act as a sort of parent to help her deal with the more difficult twins. And therein lies the problem. So, to the solution: For one, I think it would have been helpful for Molly *and* Arthur (who gets a share of the blame) to provide a sanctuary for Percy - like his room perhaps - where the twins could not bother him. I don't expect all teasing could have been stopped. And a little teasing can be a healthy thing. But Molly and Arthur could have helped the twins learn about limits. Also, they should have encouraged Percy to involve himself in the other childrens play. He's not sporty, but it may have helped ease tensions if he'd been encouraged to participate in the pickup Quidditch games the younger Weasleys engaged in. (I believe as per canon, Percy didn't join in, but I'm too lazy to go pouring through the books, so I may well be proved wrong, wrong, wrong.) But the biggest thing Molly should have done differently, IMO, was to not make Percy a parent figure for the twins. Percy was different enough on his own. To saddle him with being the example of a perfect child... Molly may as well have taped a big "kick me" sign to Percy's forehead. It was never enough for her to tell the twins what they were doing wrong, she had to point out how Percy would never have acted the same way. (Weirdly enough, Molly actually lies about how perfect Percy is. In OotP when she yells at the twins for Apperating all over the place, she starts into her, "Percy never..." routine. But Percy *did* do unnecessary Apperating after he got his license. Ron was complaining about it in GoF, IIRC.) Anyway, those are some ideas. I can well imagine that the twins would have been a handful for anybody, let alone a mother of seven whose husband seems to have abdicated his role as father (though I suspect Molly may have encouraged Arthur's absence). But I'm afraid that Percy, being such an odd duck within the Weasley fold, got a tiny bit shafted. Betsy From rbrown at cp.tamu-commerce.edu Mon Mar 7 16:01:46 2005 From: rbrown at cp.tamu-commerce.edu (rbrown at cp.tamu-commerce.edu) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:01:46 GMT Subject: (No subject header) Message-ID: <422c7aea.2d0.5a8.29942@cp.tamu-commerce.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 125675 "L Sanford" wrote: > I'm trying to figure out what the twelve subjects are .... Here is what I have: > > 1. Potions > 2. Herbology > 3. Transfiguration > 4. Charms > 5. Defense Against Dark Arts > 6. History of Magic > 7. Care of Magical Creatures > 8. Divination > 9. Ancient Runes > 10. Astrology > 11. Arithmancy 12. Muggle Studies Valky< Well done! With one exception, it's Astronomy. Astrology is part of Divination. ~bob b From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:59:22 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (sandra87b) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:59:22 -0000 Subject: Does anyone else find the Scabbers/Ron thing revolting? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125676 This is something that's bothered me for ages, especially since I saw the film. I find it thoroughly creepy that Ron and the other Weasleys were deceived into giving so much affection and physical attention (hugs and stroking etc) to a rat that was in fact a vile, unhinged man in disguise. If I was Ron I wouldn't stop washing myself for at least a month. Even thinking of it now just made me shiver. Horrible. Sandra (trying to think of anything else BUT that). From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 23:39:55 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:39:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius' heir. . .now Fudge In-Reply-To: <20050307201136.61256.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125677 > eggplant9998 said in the RE: Sirius' heir and Kreacher thread > I'll bet one of the first things the new Minister of Magic does in the > next book is issue a posthumous pardon to Sirius Black; > ------------------------- > > What do you mean "new Minister"? Fudge was still MofM at the end of OOP. Are you making an assumption or is your statement derived from previous conversations in which the consensus was Fudge would be replaced? > theotokos Hannah: JKR confirmed a while ago that there will be a new Minister for Magic in HBP. I think it likely that the new Minister will come in fairly soon, though of course, it could happen anywhere in the book. OotP ends just one week after the 'official' return of LV. Given the panic that the Ministry have been thrown into, it may take a few weeks more before they get rid of Fudge, but I don't think he can stay in office for long now he's been exposed like that. So I think he'll be off near the beginning. I would cheer, but I'm a little bit worried about what he'll do with all the free time he'll suddenly have... Hannah From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 00:35:19 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 00:35:19 -0000 Subject: Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125678 Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? Here's a sentence that Quirrell!Mort says in the end of SS/PS, which has some interesting implications I failed to notice before: SS/PS, Ch. 17 p. 293 US: "See what I have become?" the face said. "Mere shadow and vapour... I have form only when I can share another's body... but there have always been those willing to let me into their hearts and minds... "Willing"? Hearts and minds"? This doesn't sound like some small animals and snakes. So whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell and was that before or during the time he was vapor? Note the "those" and "always". We're likely talking here about several people during a long time. Reminds you of "they, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" (GoF, Ch. 33, p.648 US). It's the DEs that Voldy is talking about here. The other interesting implication of this SS/PS sentence is that maybe Voldy can't possess anyone just like that. He needs the person to be "willing" to let him in. Remember this myth about vampires and demons? They can't enter a house for the first time unless they are invited. Quirrell had to be convinced that he was "a foolish young man, full of ridiculous ideas about good and evil". It seems Voldemort had to show him first that "there is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it" before he could actually take control. Ginny had to share her fears and secrets, steal the diary and hide her suspicions about what she was doing and couldn't remember. And Harry? Harry had already had a connection with Voldy, and he was angry at DD the whole year, and just before he was actually possessed he had tried to perform an Unforgivable curse. Any thoughts? Neri From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 00:52:45 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:52:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy and the Twins (was: Weasley Types (was Molly and Arthur ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050308005245.60365.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125679 --- Hannah wrote: > > > > > The main problem is the essential difference between > the twins and > Percy. Percy has no sense of humour. Ron himself > puts it very > nicely; 'Percy wouldn't recognise a joke if it > danced naked in front > of him wearing Dobby's tea cosy.' Thus Percy cannot > accept the > twins' teasing and laugh it off. I see Percy as > being very > insecure, hence his constant boasting and toadying > up to his > superiors. After all, he's grown up in the shadow > of Bill and > Charlie, and probably suffered from a lack of > attention once the > very demanding twins came along. I agree with this pretty much 100%. I identify with Percy because I have no sense of humor about that sort of thing. Being embarassed and/or humilated is not funny. I despise it being done to me and won't do it to anyone else. I still ocasionally feel embarassed over silly things I said/did with I was in sixth grade that made me sound stupid - I'm that sensitive to that sort of thing. Being treated the way they treat Percy would really, deeply affect me. I don't think the twins intend to be cruel (most of the time) but they show a huge disregard for the feelings of others. And they go to far sometimes. This kid disappeared for weeks (months?) and there's no idea where he went or if he's okay, but they're like "hey, he took points when we didn't deserve it so he deserves whatever he gets" And I think it very plain that Percy was not ashamed of Penny. I still can't figure out why *she* agreed to keeping the thing secret, though. Rebecca __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From dorothywillis at charter.net Mon Mar 7 14:49:40 2005 From: dorothywillis at charter.net (dorothy willis) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 06:49:40 -0800 Subject: Sirius' heir and Kreacher - there's a will and a way References: Message-ID: <001e01c52324$e4bc7d00$6401a8c0@Magister> No: HPFGUIDX 125680 >Kathryn: --------------- And of course during that time he just wandered into a solicitor's office and got them to draw him up a new will ... The only way he could have made a new will was if he did it himself and assuming wizarding wills work similarly to muggle ones, and we don't know they do but if they don't then we have no idea how they work and any speculation is completely pointless with no evidence at all to go on, then he needs someone to witness his signature - which means as soon as the will is made public then someone will want to know why the person witnessing his signature didn't inform the Ministry that they were keeping company with a wanted criminal. I can't think of any way in which he can have made a legal will *that can be made public* without someone getting into trouble over it.< Are holograph wills still valid in England? They were up through the 1930s, for I have seen them mentioned in mystery stories. This would solve the problem. To quote one web site, "The holograph will must, however, be entirely written and signed by the hand of the testator. It cannot be written with a form, a typewriter or a computer. Witnesses are not required for this type of will. Moreover, it is preferable to date the will although this is not an essential condition to its validity." Dorothy From dmk320 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 18:08:31 2005 From: dmk320 at yahoo.com (Dorie Koll) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:08:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: All the possible OWLS In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050307180831.91087.qmail@web60605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125681 L Sanford wrote: >> I'm trying to figure out what the twelve subjects are in which a Hogwarts student can achieve an OWL. So far, I have only managed to come up with 11. Can anyone fill in the blank? Here is what I have: 1. Potions 2. Herbology 3. Transfiguration 4. Charms 5. Defense Against Dark Arts 6. History of Magic 7. Care of Magical Creatures 8. Divination 9. Ancient Runes 10. Astrology 11. Arithmancy << The twelfth would be Muggle Studies. "dmk320" From northsouth17 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 20:40:05 2005 From: northsouth17 at yahoo.com (northsouth17) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:40:05 -0000 Subject: Fudge and New Minister (WAS:Re: Sirius' heir. . .now Fudge) In-Reply-To: <20050307201136.61256.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125682 theotokos: > What do you mean "new Minister"? Fudge was still MofM at the end > of OOP. Are you making an assumption or is your statement derived > from previous conversations in which the consensus was Fudge would > be replaced? I haven't been keeping up with the list much until > recently due to R.W. concerns. I think Fudge is horrid and would > love to see him replaced, but I don't think he will be--not > immediately at least--maybe by the middle/end of the book. I think JKR said it in an interview somewhere. If there was a conclusion arrived at on the list, I've no clue (That pesky real world...). I agree though that the transfer of power will not be immediate, and IMO, far from simple. Fudge has developed throughout the books into a rather shortsighted politician who no longer shows any of the reliance on DD we saw back in PS, and to the contrary, seems to resent DD (Percisely beacuse of that earlier reliance, I think.) I don't see him doing an about face and cheerfully admitting that he's not the right one to do the job at hand. This is just wild hypothesyzation - I think Harry/The Order are still going to have problems other than LV and Minions - still resistance from inside the generally good WW - Which will come in the form of a messy transfer of power. Fudge will need to be outed, but he'll either be murdered or intrigued out, probably by the Order, probably in a less than perfectly nice fashion, after he proves completely incompetent at running the war. /done hyposethising Whatever happens though, a change of Minister sounds like exiting stuff, I'd hate for it to happed off-screen, so to speak. I think they'll offer it DD again, and he'll decide to stick with the school, of course. Northsouth From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Mar 8 01:27:40 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:27:40 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' heir and Kreacher - there's a will and a way References: <001e01c52324$e4bc7d00$6401a8c0@Magister> Message-ID: <422CFF8C.000001.01736@KATHRYN> No: HPFGUIDX 125683 Dorothy Are holograph wills still valid in England? They were up through the 1930s, for I have seen them mentioned in mystery stories. This would solve the problem. To quote one web site, "The holograph will must, however, be entirely written and signed by the hand of the testator. It cannot be written with a form, a typewriter or a computer. Witnesses are not required for this type of will. Moreover, it is preferable to date the will although this is not an essential condition to its validity." K I honestly have no idea - most of my knowledge on the subject comes from mystery novels, where the will is always the cause of at least one murder .. . But even if they're not in the muggle world they might be in the wizarding world - after all the point of a witness is to prove that the person signing is who they say they are and that they are not being coerced, I'm sure there must be a spell that could do that. K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From northsouth17 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 20:51:25 2005 From: northsouth17 at yahoo.com (northsouth17) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:51:25 -0000 Subject: SHIP speculation: The Love Train (was Re: SHIP: Essays on Harry SHIPS) LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125684 Antosha: > I really would not be surprised to see the DA turn into Payton > Place for a while, with romantic chaos reigning (as the battle > against the forces of evil continues) until some semblance of > order begins to assert itself at the end of the sixth book--just > to keep us from screaming too loudly as we wait for the seventh! You know, that's the first ever Shippy scenario I've ever managed to find at all plausible. It seems to fit the way JKR has treated adolescent romance so far - as very awkward, mainly. I don't quite expect a Midsummer's Hogwarts Dream, but I think hormones and embarrassing crushes HBP sounds quite cool, really. Agree that no serious pairing will be cemented (if at all!) only in the 7th book. Northsouth From lsanford at lnls.org Tue Mar 8 00:38:36 2005 From: lsanford at lnls.org (L Sanford) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:38:36 -0600 Subject: Does anyone else find the Scabbers/Ron thing revolting? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125685 > I find it thoroughly creepy that Ron and the other Weasleys > were deceived into giving so much affection and physical > attention (hugs and stroking etc) to a rat that was in fact > a vile, unhinged man in disguise. If I was Ron I wouldn't > stop washing myself for at least a month. Molley: Perhaps this is why Ron says in utter disgust when Scabbers identity is revealed, "I let you sleep in my bed!". The impression I had when reading this was that had the overall drama unfolding at this point not been so dire, he might have vomited out of revolt at the thought. I'm with you - if washing for a month would take care of it, my poor family would have been going next door for their showers till the cows came home! Pruney fingers anyone? From collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 00:52:49 2005 From: collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com (jina haymaker) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:52:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050308005249.85486.qmail@web52604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125686 Neri wrote: > Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? > > > "Willing"? Hearts and minds"? This doesn't sound like some small > animals and snakes. Note the "those" and "always". We're > likely talking here about several people during a long time. > It's the DEs that Voldy is talking about here. > > The other interesting implication of this SS/PS sentence is that > maybe Voldy can't possess anyone just like that. He needs the person > to be "willing" to let him in. I think that since Voldy can talk to snakes he just can't force himself into using their bodies, the snakes did have to be willing. Isn't that how Quirrell found Voldy...in a snake body (I thought I read that somewhere)... oh well, the point I'm trying to make is that it didn't have to be just a person it could have been a snake too. If there was another person before Quirrell (which I'm not too sure there was) that Voldy shared a body with then I would have to think that it was a faithful death eater. And when the DE died Voldy would still live (as we saw in the SS/PS). Jina From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 00:49:33 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 00:49:33 -0000 Subject: Does anyone else find the Scabbers/Ron thing revolting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125687 Sandra wrote: > I find it thoroughly creepy that Ron and the other > Weasleys were deceived into giving so much affection and > physical attention (hugs and stroking etc) to a rat that > was in fact a vile, unhinged man in disguise. a_svirn: There is no accounting for taste, is there? What has me in puzzle though is why a rat-pet was allowed in Hogwarts at all. It was clearly said in the letter of admission: "a cat OR a toad OR an owl". Why there were special allowances made for Weasleys? a_svirn From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 02:35:52 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 02:35:52 -0000 Subject: Penelope & Percy(was: Percy and the Twins(was: Weasley Types(was Molly and Arth In-Reply-To: <20050308005245.60365.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125688 >>Rebecca: >And I think it very plain that Percy was not ashamed of Penny. I still can't figure out why *she* agreed to keeping the thing secret, though.< Betsy: If Penelope knew Percy at all before they started dating, she may have recognized how he'd be treated by the twins (and what she'd be in for, herself) and decided that secrecy would be the wisest course to take. Betsy From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 03:45:46 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 03:45:46 -0000 Subject: Fudge and New Minister (WAS:Re: Sirius' heir. . .now Fudge) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125689 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "northsouth17" wrote: > This is just wild hypothesyzation - I think Harry/The Order are still > going to have problems other than LV and Minions - still resistance > from inside the generally good WW - Which will come in the form of a > messy transfer of power. GEO: Either possibly from Fudge who is probably going to take a more authoritarian/Stalinistic and Crouch like view towards the war with the order of Unforgivables or from Fudge's successor. It's also possible that the next minister may not be who we think it is and might even be Lucius Malfoy or a Voldemort crony as some have suspected. Fudge will need to be outed, but he'll > either be murdered or intrigued out, probably by the Order, probably > in a less than perfectly nice fashion, after he proves completely > incompetent at running the war. /done hyposethising GEO: He's the Chamberlain figure. Most likely he'll resign in disgrace either fading into the background or giving his life to fight in the war. The former seems more likely imo. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 04:14:12 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 04:14:12 -0000 Subject: Life debts (Was: Pettigrew's life debt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125690 Finwitch wrote: > I wonder-- how many life-debts have the Healers gained? Is it enough > to pay the hospital fee? You know - Healers who heal their patients > from otherwise terminal diseases/poisonings/whatever-- they must have gained loads of life-debts... > > Finwitch Carol responds: Without considering how life debts are paid back (and the whole Snape question in that regard since it's already been thoroughly discussed), I think that a life debt may not result from the routine, day-to-day business of healers and so forth. More likely it involves saving someone when you're not obligated to do so by anything other than morality or ethics (it's a healer's *job* to save people) and when the person who does the saving expects no reward for it--no money, no Order of Merlin, maybe not even gratitude. Harry was concerned for Lupin and Black, not for Peter or himself. James was concerned (I think) for the consequences to Remus and Sirius if the so-called Prank succeeded, not for Severus or himself. (Or so it appears from the limited information available.) So I suggest that selflessness or altruism is a factor in incurring a life debt. Possibly there's also an element of risk. Certainly that was the case for James saving Severus from the werewolf; he placed himself in danger to save an enemy. It's not quite as clear in the case of Harry saving Peter Pettigrew. Certainly both altruism and risk apply in Harry's saving Ginny. So if life debts operate as they seem to me to do, she certainly owes him one. But I'm less sure about Mr. Weasley. Harry wasn't in physical danger. Would the risk of being thought mad count? Thoughts, anyone? Carol, who thinks that Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore goes beyond the life debt but is too tired to speculate on it now From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 8 02:00:33 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 02:00:33 -0000 Subject: Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125691 Neri: > Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? > > SS/PS, Ch. 17 p. 293 US: > "See what I have become?" the face said. "Mere shadow and > vapour... I have form only when I can share another's body... but > there have always been those willing to let me into their hearts > and minds... > > This doesn't sound like some small animals and snakes. We're > likely talking here about several people during a long time. > > The other interesting implication of this SS/PS sentence is that > maybe Voldy can't possess anyone just like that. He needs the > person to be "willing" to let him in. SSSusan: Hmmmm. This is *really* off the wall, which isn't very like me, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway. All that time Gilderoy Lockhart was travelling, "doing" all those amazing things he wrote about? As he confessed to Harry & Ron, we know he was actually "stealing the actions" of many others who actually performed those amazing feats, and then performing powerful memory charms upon them. Could doing so leave them in a weakened, susceptible state? Could Lockhart & Voldy have been working in cahoots somehow, with Voldy sort of piggybacking onto Lockhart's memory-charmed, weakened subjects and possessing them?? Siriusly Snapey Susan From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 09:02:22 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:02:22 -0000 Subject: Life debts (Was: Pettigrew's life debt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125692 > Carol: > > I think that a life debt may not result from the routine, ... > business of healers and so forth. Valky: I concur. Life debts are more specific in some way than just the act of saving a life. Carol: > Certainly both altruism and risk apply in Harry's saving Ginny. So if life debts operate as they seem to me to do, she certainly owes him one. But I'm less sure about Mr. Weasley. Harry wasn't in physical danger. Would the risk of being thought mad count? > > Thoughts, anyone? > Valky: Yes actually I have a thought. The only thing that truly sets apart Harrys saving of Peter from his saving of Ginny and Arthur, Gabrielle, Sirius etc etcetera and on, is that Ginny and Arthur have never wronged Harry. Peter OTOH is guilty of a serious crime against Harry and yet Harry chose to save him. I would like to go out on a limb and say that the life debt might have come from Harry being able to forgive Peter but canon so far kind of contradicts that. (Not totally so I could hang on to a flimsy hope if I tried...) However the fact that Peter was guilty of a crime against Harry, murder of him and his family no less, is the stand out (and quite probably ONLY) difference between this and other saving a life events, so it would be a crime to rule it out as the basis of a life debt.. ;D Valky From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 00:40:44 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 00:40:44 -0000 Subject: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125693 1. Of course it IS "fundamentally" elitist, that Muggles are incapable of becoming wizards. Fundamentally in the sense that it is the in the nature of things. It is NOT a social order, it a NATURAL one. Muggles are not capable of magic while wizards are. That makes wizards a breed apart and infinitely superior one at that. Unlike our own world where racism is but a failed ideology in the WW it is a fact of life, complete with racial segregation in the guise of the "International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy". And interestingly enough not even the most ardent muggle-lovers pose to question the Statute and the way Ministry set out to implement it (Obliviators etc.). Strictly speaking there may be more races that just these two if we count giants and veela (and since Fleur's grandmother was a veela we can assume that they at least are human), but we don't know enough about them to speculate. And I don't think it would be all that interesting. After all most of us can't help but identify with Muggles ? a fact that makes muggle/wizard relationship far more interesting topic than "magical brethren". Although JKR understandably prefers us to focus on the magical part of the specter, since that way we won't dwell on the fundamental inequality of the Potterverse. 2. Yes I think there most certainly is something wrong with the way JKR presents Muggles in books. We have only seen the particularly nasty specimen so far, and potentially nice Hermione's parents are of no interest to JKR; she said "they are just dentists" (meaning, I think, "just Muggles"). Understandable perhaps (since that way we are not inclined to be sympathetic) but this is growing clumsier with every book. Squibs ? I think the term says it all. They are handicapped children who grow up to become handicapped adults. Some of them let misery and bitterness to take over their better nature like Filch; some are trying to adjust like Arabella Figg. As for the Evans family we don't know enough to speculate. Lily's parents could love her more simply because she was charming and kind unlike sulky and spiteful Petunia. 3. It wouldn't hurt to read "Hogwarts, A History" first, before answer the question, but yes it is an elitist establishment simply because it is the school which only precious few with the magical ability can attend. In a sense it is more exclusive even than Eton or Harrow: if your name isn't down there since your birth NOTHING, neither money nor connections can ever change the fact. JKR emphasises the exclusive nature of the school making it superficially like English private schools. Besides, she goes out of her way to describe Hogwart's splendour. They even eat off gold plates and drink from gold goblets for God's sake! When it comes to elitism, there is also a question of muggle-borns of course. But since it wasn't specified in #3 it probably belongs elsewhere. About the Song. I don't think there is something Etonesque about it. But it does betray rather slighting attitude towards Hufflepuff. 4. Harry is not a member of elite in Hogwarts. But there is no denying that he is a "DD's favourite boy", and that DD is not shy when it comes to playing favourites. 5. I am not at all sure that there is such thing as "Blood vs. Choice" problem. Children may follow their parents' steps just because they are brought up certain way, not because it's in their "blood". The same character trait may be encouraged by the Malfoys and quelled by the Weasleys and their children's choices may be influenced accordingly. As we know Harry could have easily ended up in Slytherin if Hagrid hadn't warned him about its "dark" reputation and Draco hadn't confirmed his already bad opinion. 6. Hmm Draco's rendition of the WW's elitist ideology does look a bit too simplistic. On the other hand bigotry of any kind is not that complicated. It's about retaining one's privileges and despising those who aren't privileged enough. Draco's problem is that he's too weak to be convincing. If JKR chose to give Harry a more worthy opponent his "elitism" might look a bit more compelling. As for Stan Shunpike ? we know on the authority of JKR that under DD at least Hogwarts is open for everyone born with magical ability. She knows best, I suppose. a_svirn From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 12:55:33 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:55:33 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy(was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125694 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > a_svirn wrote: > 1. Of course it IS "fundamentally" elitist, that Muggles are > incapable of becoming wizards. Fundamentally in the sense that it is > the in the nature of things. It is NOT a social order, it a NATURAL > one. Muggles are not capable of magic while wizards are. That makes > wizards a breed apart and infinitely superior one at that. Unlike our > own world where racism is but a failed ideology in the WW it is a > fact of life, complete with racial segregation in the guise of > the "International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy". And interestingly > enough not even the most ardent muggle-lovers pose to question the > Statute and the way Ministry set out to implement it (Obliviators > etc.). > > Tammy replies: I take exception to that... Muggles and Wizards are basically "made" differently - it doesn't make one superior to the other. Men are made differently from women - which makes them able to pee standing up. And while I (at times) wish I had that ability, it doesn't mean they're superior 'cause they've got it. Perhaps many of the wizards feel they are superior, but place them into a situation where they have to cook, clean, and do the laundy without magic and they'd feel infinitely inferior in a hurry. As for the separation of the two, it's necessary. Muggles would constantly be looking for magical solutions to their problems, if they actually managed to accept it. In all likelihood, it would return to the days of witch trials, because we don't like something we can't understand. Magic is the core of "things you can't understand." -Tammy From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 13:10:19 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:10:19 -0000 Subject: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125695 1. I see the distinction of Wizard/Muggle as the difference between those who see the deeper reality of the world from those who do not. To put it another way, the mystics from those who are more grounded in the physical world. I think that everyone is born with the capacity to be a wizard, but only some children keep that alive in them. Most allow the *world* to change them into worldly creatures like the Dursleys. I see Hogwarts like a monastery. A monastery, especially a Benedictine one is a place that is called "a school of the Lord's service". Only some are called to that type of life or *school*. I see Hogwarts like that. The children who are still in touch with the mystical world at the age of 11 are invited to come and learn more. 2. I think that JKR is telling us by the example of Muggles that the spiritual world is the *real* world and those who are caught up in just the physical world are missing something very important. The physical world will pass away and what is fashionable today is gone tomorrow. The Dursleys and people like them are chasing the wrong things. The spiritual world will continue after the physical one is gone. I think that this is the message that JKR is presenting here. Regarding Squibs: I think it is clear that Squibs are seen in a better light than Muggles. Perhaps they are people who know about the spiritual world and understand the importance, but for some reason can not fully participate in it. I haven't sorted out just why that is. 3. I am not sure on this one. Hogwarts doesn't seem like a really cushy place. Cold dungeons, etc. And except for the Draco types, I don't get the sense that the students are elitist in their thinking like I presume a student at Eton would be. 4. I think that Harry is special in that he has a special purpose, but I don't get the sense that he is a member of the elite. The elite in the WW are the folks like the Malfoys who have money and political power. They are more like the elite Muggles in this respect. DD is respected, but I am not sure the term elite applies to him either. 5. "Doing what is right over what is easy". Choice is more important than blood. Some families like the Weasleys follow what most of us would think is the right way so being in that family would make doing what is right easier. Being a member of the Black family would predispose one to being like them, so here when one follows the right path it will be harder because it mean turning against the blood ties. In the WW world as in the RW families want their memebers to share the same values, experiences, etc. 6. I think that Stan Shunpike could have been a student at Hogwarts. Maybe he was in Hufflepuff and didn't quite get past the OWL level. As to class distinctions: I see Harry and Hermione as from middle class Muggle homes and Ron from a pureblood Wizard home, but poor. The Weasleys value education perhaps in a way that Shumpike's family did not. But we see signs that Ron is not quite in the same social class as Harry and Hermione by his use of poor grammar and the occasional profanity. He does not have that *Noble* air about him. It is very subtle and does not jump out at you, but it is there. I think we see the world from the view of Harry and Harry is who he is. If we want the child reader to have a hero that is a good example I don't think that we want him to be someone with poor grammar and low morals. (Now before you all jump on me, I am not equating low morals with the lower classes. But often poor grammar does go with lower classes, I guess because education does not have the same value as it does in the middle class.) Tonks_op From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 8 15:04:45 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:04:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' heir. . .now Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050308150445.18546.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125696 Hannah: it may take a few weeks more before they get rid of Fudge, but I don't think he can stay in office for long now he's been exposed like that. So I think he'll be off near the beginning. I would cheer, but I'm a little bit worried about what he'll do with all the free time he'll suddenly have... ----------------------- Geo: It's also possible that the next minister may not be who we think it is and might even be Lucius Malfoy or a Voldemort crony as some have suspected. [snip] He's the Chamberlain figure. Most likely he'll resign in disgrace either fading into the background or giving his life to fight in the war. The former seems more likely imo. ----------------------- theotokos: I was unaware of JKR's statements but HURRAY! You are right though, Hannah, I think I am concerned as well about what he will do once ousted--I do think he will need to ousted as opposed to resigning. I think he is too pompous and power-loving to resign unless it be in a Nixonesque way--i.e. no other choice. Will he be embraced by Lucius? Will he turn to the Dark Arts in an attempt to get power again or be ashamed like Crouch eventually was? Dare JKR have him commit suicide? Is that appropriate? Will he seek out DD and meekly follow him? I think, Geo, you have a good point--the new Minister may be worse than the denying Fudge, it may actually be someone pretending to be good whilst supporting Voldemort. I for sure do not think it will be Dumbledore or any of the other "good guys" we know well--at least no one I can think of right now. I don't see it being Lucius either. I think it possible that once the public knows DD has been right all along and Fudge so terribly wrong that suspicion and fear will break out and all the wizards once accused of being DEs will again be under suspicion. theotokos, wondering if covert operations will continue or will it be all out war--and what about the DE's kids at Hogwarts? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Mar 8 15:18:51 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:18:51 -0000 Subject: Character Discussion: Remus John Lupin In-Reply-To: <20050307212959.28755.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125697 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: Hans: > However the main point is that we're all living in a > "prison" outside of the real world. Our destination is > not INSIDE the prison but OUTSIDE of it! Hence > whatever we do inside the prison is only of temporary > benefit. The prisoners can help each other or make > things even more miserable than they are, but their > one and only task is to get OUT of the prison. > > And now I'm going to say something really shocking and > controversial. If our task is to get out, but many do > gooders in the prison are working to make life as > comfortable as possible under the circumstances, > trying to forget the bad conditions, trying to forget > the radiant world of sunshine, fresh air and glorious > FREEDOM outside of the prison, then is that not > actually bad? In the opinion of the prisoners these do > gooders are making life in the prison less unbearable, > and so they're considered good, but in actual fact > they're "drugging" the prisoners into forgetting about > liberation, which is their one and only purpose. > Finally, once again I want to point out that Sirius' > three friends were called James (Potter), Peter > (Pettigrew) and (Remus) John (Lupin), while Jesus' > best three disciples were James, John and Peter. I > believe this is of the utmost importance in realising > what Harry Potter is really all about. Jo's flag is > firmly nailed to the mast, in my opinion. > > May the world soon wake up to this! Geoff: I have isolated out the two sections above as I feel further comment might be worthwhile. It has been commented on in the past that three of the best-known writers of children's fiction, CS Lewis, JRR Tolkien and JK Rowling have Christian backgrounds and there is evidence of that in their books - either overtly or covertly. It seems that CS Lewis ? at least in the first of the Narnia stories (The Lion ,the Witch and the Wardrobe) ? made it an overt allegory of the story of Christ, intentionally so for younger readers. Aslan is very much a representation of Christ in being killed in the place of Edmund and then returning to life. Both the latter authors have eschewed the idea of allegory but Christian ethics and ideals remain as undertones and underpinning to the books. I feel therefore that Jo Rowling would not make such obvious links as you suggest in the names of the three characters. The names concerned are /very/ common names in the UK. James was recently announced as the most popular name for boys in Britain for the 2nd or 3rd year in succession and, if you asked me off the top of my head for three popular boys' names, I might well think of a couple of them. Further, in the Harry Potter story, Peter Pettigrew is a traitor who betrayed James and Lily. Peter the disciple was not. He denied knowing Christ in a moment of weakness but soon became one of the great pillars of the early church; it was Judas whose name is for ever used as an indicator of betrayal. I think that anyone looking for allegory in the HArry Potter books might well miss any possible link here as a result. Hans' analogy of the population of the real world living in a "prison" is a good one because this is exactly the theme of the Christian gospel. I agree with Hans in that our task is to get everyone out of prison ? the prison of our wrongdoing, selfishness and materialism. That is why Christ came. In the Christian world, we are rapidly approaching Easter when we are reminded that Jesus allowed men of evil to drag him to the cross and crucify him thinking that, in so doing, they were winning. They little knew that this was precisely God's plan and that Jesus, in rising from the grave, proved who he was and also carried the punishment for the wrongs of the whole world. Hans refers to the do-gooders who are trying to make life easier and more comfortable. This also includes both those who suggest that this life is the only reality and we must make the best of it for ourselves and those who see the way out of the problem is a very complicated way of life to follow which is only open to a few privileged folk whereas, as Jesus pointed out, all it needs is /genuine/ belief in who he was and what he did for us. It's all bound up in Dumbledroe's choices again. I wholeheartedly agree that Jo's flag is firmly nailed to the mast but a different flag, I think, to the one which was under discussion. From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 8 15:23:18 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:23:18 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mel" wrote: > > Does Harry have "permanent scars"? I as of the impression his hand > healed up. > Yes, he does. The scars from his last series of detentions never disappeared, although they are very faint. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 8 15:28:29 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:28:29 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125699 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > < bboymin wrote: SNIP> > In addition, I can see the potential for Umbrdige to start to get a > little /high and mighty/ again in an attempt to redeem herself in the > public's eye. Something along the line of, well, we may have made a > small error in judgement, but Dumbledore this! and Harry that!. At > which time Harry and/or Hermione will remind Umbridge that they have > enough on her to put her in prison for good, and if she knows what's > good for her she will shut-up and accept her disgrace. > > In this way, Umbridge will become weak, powerless, and disgraced, and > Harry will now, suddenly, be the one in the position of power and > control. I'm confident Harry will handle the power much better than > Umbridge who had elevated herself to god-like status in her own mind. > Remember the old saying, Power corrupt, absolute power corrupts > absolutely. > > In this scenerio, we the readers, get to see Umbridge punished by > fate for her trangression, and in addition, get once again see Harry > in the heroes light. To see that he truly is a far far better person > than those who see power, position, and status. > > So, the resolution will occur in a small, perhaps 'in passing', side > story as part of the process of Fudge and Umbridge falling into > disgrace, in a sense, at their own hand. The extension of that, and > Harry's interaction with the events, will be another opportunity for > us to see Harry for the great person that he is. > > In this method, the author can give us, the readers, and the > characters a sense of satisfaction and justice without being bogged > down in a long side track. > > Just a thought. > > Steve/bboyminn This would be in line with what JKR has done before with Rita Skeeter, I agree. Although I don't know, given the flagrantly illegal and murderous possibilities in Umbridge's actions (sending the Dementors I'm thinking about) it doesn't seem like a good way to address this particular issue. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 8 15:39:01 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:39:01 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > I think JKR could go either way in the plot, she could have an adult > learn about it and react, or she could keep it secret. I don't think > it would be a failure on JKR's part if it doesn't come up again. > Potioncat Well, I disagree strongly, but that isn't a major surprise I don't suppose. I maintain that if JKR lets this drop it will be a major failure on her part. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 8 16:06:56 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:06:56 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy(was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125701 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy" wrote: > > > As for the separation of the two, it's necessary. Muggles would > constantly be looking for magical solutions to their problems, if they > actually managed to accept it. In all likelihood, it would return to > the days of witch trials, because we don't like something we can't > understand. Magic is the core of "things you can't understand." > > -Tammy But of course, that brings up many ethical and moral problems, doesn't it? Saying muggles would "look for magical solutions to their problems" really begs a lot of questions. Particularly it begs the question of what is wrong with looking for magical solutions to problems. I would have to say there is nothing, per se, wrong with looking for a magical solution to a problem, any more than there is something wrong with looking for a scientific or technological solution to a problem. If wizards are capable of curing muggle diseases with potions, for instance, then don't they have a moral duty to share their abilities with the rest of humanity? What is wrong with looking to wizards to provide magical solutions to sickness, for instance? How is that different from looking to physicians to provide scientific solutions, which might as well be magical as far as the average person understands them? To put it even more strictly, let us suppose wizards are capable of curing cancer (we know they don't suffer from it, at any rate). I grant you there is nothing in the books that says this, but let's suppose for an example. By holding themselves apart and denying muggles the cures they can provide, are they not guilty of a grave sin of ommission, in effect murder by implied consent? By the way, this also shows up a weakness inherent in the idea of muggleborns and half-bloods. If magic really could save their relatives, it is inconceivable that a muggleborn would let the statute of secrecy stand in the way of giving his mother a potion, for example, or that a half-blood wouldn't heal his nephew's broken arm because of some danger to wizardkind. JKR doesn't explore these questions and I, who am usually very hard on the author, really don't blame her. If you take a hard look at all these issues the world construct she has built comes down like a house of cards. In order to preserve some degree of believability it is essential that she not get too close to the interface between magical and non-magical worlds. And I think that, more than any discomfort with mixed messages, is why she deals very little with muggles and muggle relations in her books. Lupinlore From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 16:31:10 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:31:10 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy(was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy" wrote: > As for the separation of the two, it's necessary. GEO: And look at what total segregation has accomplished: the rise of an elite pureblood class, prejudice against muggle borns and a view of wizarding supremacy with muggles being viewed even by muggle lovers like Weasley as lower beings compared to the wizards. > Muggles would > constantly be looking for magical solutions to their problems, if they > actually managed to accept it. GEO: Would they? It's Hagrid's reasoning on why they maintain segregation, but would the whole of mankind even trust wizards for solutions when we have scientific research? > In all likelihood, it would return to > the days of witch trials, because we don't like something we can't > understand. Magic is the core of "things you can't understand." GEO: Though I agree Magic is something thats probably not understandable, but do you really think seriously that the whole of mankind will go into a rage and starting lynchings against wizards and wtiches. Yes there will be lynchings, pograms and other nasty things from various portions of humanity, but I don't think it will be as you described. From ellydan at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 16:56:32 2005 From: ellydan at yahoo.com (Melete) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:56:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard supremacy(was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050308165632.655.qmail@web54605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125704 --- lupinlore wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy" > wrote: > > > > > > As for the separation of the two, it's necessary. > Muggles would > > constantly be looking for magical solutions to > their problems, if > they > > actually managed to accept it. In all likelihood, > it would return > to > > the days of witch trials, because we don't like > something we can't > > understand. Magic is the core of "things you can't > understand." > > > > -Tammy > An interesting dilemma, there are obviously moments when even in JKR's books that the two worlds interesect. The Muggle parents of Hermione having a witch daughter, Harry's uncle and aunt having a wizard nephew, and many others with similar situations or the opposite wizarding parents with squib children. In these instances she cannot help the interesections of the culture. I do believe though that there are very good reasons for the two worlds to remain as separate as they do. First for the protection of the muggles. Look at the number of wizards that would make the muggles into a lower caste for themselves. Powerful wizards like the Malfoys wouldn't hesitate to use their powers to manipulate, overpower and subvert the muggle world to their own whims if both worlds were united. Others like Tom Riddle have already killed some muggles in revenge for painful childhoods. Who would control such behavior? It would have to be the Ministry. But then who would make the laws would it be muggles and wizards. Would both willingly work together? Would some wizards get elected because the could promise miracles while muggles could not? Or perhaps only the muggles would govern as the majority rule and wizards with their powers would have to come under the regulation of muggles. Would muggles have the compassion and understanding to realize that wizards are just humans with extra powers? Would they view them as threats or tools to be used? The second main consideration of course woul then be protection of wizards. Their privacy would be gone. News stations would hound them almost as much as celebrities. Can't you see them having citizen watch brigades to make sure each wizard doesn't abuse their powers, b/c how can they trust a "wizard run group" to actually curtail the powers of the wizards so they aren't harmful. And what about wizard children in mixed schools. How would the other children treat the minority of wizard children? Would they not befriend them out of fear? Treat them as freaks? Or constantly blame them for the problems in their lives that the child hadn't fixed like dying relatives, accidents etc? I can see the problems of a united world as being really quite messy. The way the JKR has separated them of course does lend itself to way the story is being told, the issues inherent in the separated worlds as well. On the other hand, if the two worlds would collide what a mess JKR would have on her hands to try and fix up. And certainly in the next book where the wizarding war will start I'm sure there will be some ramifications into the muggle world. Imagine though the mass hysteria if muggles were caught between two opposing forces knowingly in a wizarding war. I think rather at the moment that the world is as neat and tidy as it can be. I'm certainly open to disagreement though and critiquing of this idea. But I do find myself fascinated by the possiblities of what such a world would be like. Ellyddan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:06:42 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:06:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Albus Dumbledore Message-ID: <20050308170642.76185.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125705 Albus Dumbledore is the most abstract and therefore the most difficult character to define. Many people see him as personifying God. I disagree on the principle that God can't be personified. He is not a force and not a living being; He is in my opinion not part of creation and therefore there is nothing we can say about Him, because everything we could possibly imagine is part of creation. God is essentially transcendent and therefore in the ultimate sense is unknowable. However we can get to know God in a second hand way, so to speak, for He projects into creation the Sevenfold Spirit, and as such is immanent. And we can experience the Spirit personally when Harry is born in us. However I do not think Dumbledore personifies the Holy Sevenfold Spirit either. If God, the Causeless Cause, is incomprehensible, then the Sevenfold Spirit is not far from being incomprehensible until we have experienced Him personally. He can certainly not be described in words! Let's try to work it out. In Harry Potter, Dumbledore is a very ancient man who lives in a tower and is in complete charge of Harry's spiritual (i.e. "magic") development. He knows exactly what trials Harry will face each year and organises a lot of them, for example the Mirror of Erised and the seven trial in book 1. He lives in a room which is reached by a moving spiral stairway. The room contains many instruments of observation. In "The Alchemical Wedding" there is also a very ancient man who lives in a tower. He is in complete charge of the alchemical wedding which brings back to life the dead King and Queen. He has a representative who is in a room that is reached by a spiral staircase. This representative is also very old and is called Atlas. To simplify things we could see them as one person, or as the personification of one force. I think the idea of the Very Ancient One being in charge of the Alchemical Wedding is the clue as to who Dumbledore is. What is the purpose of the alchemical wedding? It is the complete restoration of the Divine Human Being as he was before the Fall. In other words, it is the complete healing of the child of the Sevenfold Spirit. What is healing? Being healed means being restored to health, being restored to what God intended us to be. When we are healed, we are whole, we are HOLY. A person who has achieved the alchemical wedding has been transfigured from an imperfect child of Lucimort to a Perfect Child of the Holy Creator, and is therefore Holy. Hence there is only one conclusion I can reach when contemplating Dumbledore: He personifies the Holy Spirit! He is the sanctifying, healing Spirit of God. He therefore also personifies the Holy Plan of Redemption of humanity. In other words, he is the Force of Liberation. And so I believe we will see an alchemical transfiguration leading to total Liberation taking place in Book 7 of Harry Potter. I may be be up the creek in my understanding, and there are many things I haven't figured out yet, but I think we will see some form of alchemical wedding similar to the one in the 1616 version. If I'm correct, Hermione symbolises the original human spirit - the young king in "The Alchemical Wedding"; Harry symbolises the Divine Soul - the young queen in "The Alchemical Wedding", and Ron symbolises the human personality - Christian Rosycross in "The Alchemical Wedding". If this is correct it probably means Harry and Hermione will marry, but Ron will be with them always. Sirius will be their Guide and Inspiration. Dumbledore will be the one to be in charge of things and will be the healing, sanctifying force in the process. I guess we could call him the Master of Ceremonies. To help us understand the force that Dumbledore personifies we could look at the Bible. For example in Revelation, chapter 1, John meets a very ancient man who reminds me of Dumbledore: "I saw one [...] like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden girdle round his breast; his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; his eyes were like flames of fire, his feet like burnished bronze, refined as in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters; in his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth issued a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength." The above is what I believe to be the equivalent of Dumbledore. The "son of man" described there is the symbolic description of the divine aspects of the resurrected original divine human being. John here symbolises the new soul, who has to perform seven tasks: Harry and his seven years of learning. John is told to write seven letters; Harry has to perform a liberating task in each of his seven years. Perhaps one day we could have a look at the seven letters to see how they compare with the seven liberating tasks of Harry. I believe that this principle is called "The Ancient of Days" in the Kaballah. Perhaps a Kaballist could shed some light on this? "The Ancient of Days" is also mentioned in the Book of Daniel, chapter 7. The description there is very similar to the one in Revelation. Finally, I want to tell you briefly why Dumbledore and Atlas live in a room at the top of a spiral staircase. I will explain this in more detail when I do my series on the symbolism in Harry Potter. For now let me say that this room symbolises the supreme spiritual centre in the head of the alchemist. This is the place where the crown chakra is situated, represented in the physical body by the pineal gland. You may remember from my discussion of occultism that occultists try to drive the serpent of the kundalini upwards, through the spine, to the pineal gland. This is where people often get confused between occultism and liberating alchemy. In both occultism and alchemy a force rises up the spine and enters the pineal gland and the crown chakra. In both cases there is a tremendous change in the person. But in occultism it is the Basilisk that rises upwards and enters the Temple of the Holy Spirit to defile it with its evil eyes and poisonous fangs. It's called the Light-birth of Lucifer. In Alchemy it is the New, Pure and Divine Soul, personified in Harry, that rises up to the Temple where it will celebrate the wedding with the Spirit. This is called the Light-birth of Christ. The occultist will earn great powers and stop the wheel of reincarnation for a long period. He will become one of the great rulers of the Fallen Universe. He will become a death eater and serve Lucimort. Harry will enter the Temple of the Holy Spirit and humbly serve the Potter of the Universe with an intense compassion for humanity. He will be free of the wheel of reincarnation, and hence will not be compelled to come to earth again, but he will do so as an unimaginable sacrifice, driven by the Love burning in his heart. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 12:57:58 2005 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:57:58 -0000 Subject: Covers! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125706 Hello all, it's been ages since I've posted and I'm running late to class, so this won't be amazing. But the covers are up! British and American versions. I feel as though the American one has less visually than usual; maybe they know we read into every detail and for some reason didn't want us to? Nah. Anyways. Link: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/005562.html So, I guess I'll start off-- At first I assumed that man with Harry wasn't Dumbledore but the man from the snippet; then I realized he has the half-moon spectacles. Dumbledore looks horrified-- doesn't bode well! Happy looking everybody! -A positivly Gleeful becky From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 13:26:29 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:26:29 -0000 Subject: Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125707 Neri wrote: > Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? > > Here's a sentence that Quirrell!Mort says in the end of SS/PS, which has some interesting implications I failed to notice before: > > SS/PS, Ch. 17 p. 293 US: > "See what I have become?" the face said. "Mere shadow and vapour... I have form only when I can share another's body... but there have always been those willing to let me into their hearts and minds... > > "Willing"? Hearts and minds"? This doesn't sound like some small > animals and snakes. So whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell and was that before or during the time he was vapor? Hannah: Well, I always took this as more figurative than literal. When he says about people 'letting them into their hearts and minds' I took that to mean people prepared to believe in his cause, to follow him. All those people that he'd 'always been able to charm.' So I saw it as referring to the time before he was vapour! mort. Maybe it's also a reference to his use of Legilimency(looking into people's minds). Quirrel was just the latest example of a person whom LV was able to manipulate, except that this time, he had to let him into his heart and mind more literally, in the form of a possession. That was how I understood it anyway. I haven't got my copy of GoF at hand, but doesn't he talk about his time between GH and resurrection during his 'chief villain explains his evil plot' moment in the graveyard? I seem to remember that he hadn't possessed anyone before Quirrel. Hannah From inkling108 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 14:21:15 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:21:15 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125708 Go to mugglenet.com for links and a high res version of the US cover. (Or go directly to Scholastic.com or Bloomsbury.com.) * ** Spoiler space * * * * ** **** ******* US version is purple and green shows Harry and Dumbledore looking into what seems to be pensieve. Harry holds wand at the ready. UK children's version shows the same two engulged by flames, both holding wands. Adult version shows weathered looking magical book. Couldn't make out the title but someone on the mugglenet comments board said it's an advanced guide to potions (!) Cheers, Inkling From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 18:43:44 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 18:43:44 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125709 "lupinlore" wrote: > I maintain that if JKR lets this drop > it will be a major failure on her part. After all the hell Harry went through last year the little unpleasantness in the detention class must seem like a very small thing to him, and with Voldemort back I imagine the adults will be far too busy trying to stay alive to worry about it much. Umbridge has lost her job and been disgraced, she's yesterday's news, I don't see why Rowling needs to ever mention her name again. Harry may well be suffering from post traumatic shock syndrome by now, but it won't be because of Umbridge's detention. Eggplant From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 19:11:50 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:11:50 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125710 Inkling: Spoiler space > * > * > * > * > ** > **** > ******* US version is purple and green shows Harry and Dumbledore looking into what seems to be pensieve. Harry holds wand at the ready. UK children's version shows the same two engulged by flames, both holding wands. Adult version shows weathered looking magical book. Couldn't make out the title but someone on the mugglenet comments board said it's an advanced guide to potions (!) Alla: Oh, dare I hope that this foreshadows Dumbledore stepping up to the plate ( finally) and being a real mentor to Harry ( in a sense of giving him some real training to prepare him)? If that book is indeed "Guide to Potions" maybe it means that Dumbledore will be teaching Harry Potions? JMO, Alla From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 19:34:50 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:34:50 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125712 > Inkling: > > > Spoiler space > > > > > > * > > * > > * > > * > > ** > > **** > > ******* > > > > US version is purple and green shows Harry and Dumbledore looking > into what seems to be pensieve. Harry holds wand at the ready. > > UK children's version shows the same two engulged by flames, both > holding wands. Adult version shows weathered looking magical book. > Couldn't make out the title but someone on the mugglenet comments > board said it's an advanced guide to potions (!) > Alla: > Oh, dare I hope that this foreshadows Dumbledore stepping up to the plate ( finally) and being a real mentor to Harry ( in a sense of giving him some real training to prepare him)? > > If that book is indeed "Guide to Potions" maybe it means that > Dumbledore will be teaching Harry Potions? Hannah: The interesting thing about the Potions book is that it looks so old and battered. Now, I can't see Harry having a second hand book, since he's not exactly strapped for cash, so I wondered if this was a bit of a red herring. Perhaps it isn't *Harry's* book at all, but a young Snape's. Since the USA ed. shows DD and Harry looking into a pensieve, it's safe to say there will be more glimpses into the mysterious past. I'm guessing this is where we'll see Sirius again. We know that this is the book where we find out why DD trusts Snape, and that there is 'something huge' about Lily Potter. My theory is that DD will show Harry the young Snape, and that book will feature. Maybe the 'something huge' about Lily will be revealed along the way (IMO, that she was friends (platonic) with Snape). I don't think the cover of UK childrens ed. bodes well for DD's survival, given the look on his face. Hannah From ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 20:05:22 2005 From: ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com (Constance Vigilance) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:05:22 -0000 Subject: Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? In-Reply-To: <20050308005249.85486.qmail@web52604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125713 Neri asked: Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? --- Then Jina Haymaker wrote: If there was another person before Quirrell (which I'm not too sure there was) that Voldy shared a body with then I would have to think that it was a faithful death eater. And when the DE died Voldy would still live (as we saw in the SS/PS). CV now: But! Voldy says that the reason that animals die when he leaves them is because they aren't magical enough. I'd love to present the quote, but I'm at work, bookless. The inhabited magical person could presumably survive the possession. This is part of the reason why I believe, still firmly, that Quirrell is alive and well and will show up in book 7. Not only does Quirrell pass the "magical enough" test, but he also was operating with a double dose of unicorn blood - not because he was in danger of dying, but because Voldy insisted. Remember, Harry survived a Voldy-possession. ~Constance Vigilance, stubbornly keeping Quirrell Corner warm, and don't even SPEAK of the non-canon medium-that-shall-not-be-named. From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Tue Mar 8 20:15:20 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:15:20 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge and New Minister (WAS:Re: Sirius' heir. . .now Fudge) Message-ID: <1e.40c6db75.2f5f61d8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125714 In a message dated 3/7/2005 5:26:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, northsouth17 at yahoo.com writes: theotokos: > What do you mean "new Minister"? Fudge was still MofM at the end > of OOP. Are you making an assumption or is your statement derived > from previous conversations in which the consensus was Fudge would > be replaced? I haven't been keeping up with the list much until > recently due to R.W. concerns. I think Fudge is horrid and would > love to see him replaced, but I don't think he will be--not > immediately at least--maybe by the middle/end of the book. ************************************ Chancie: You are right in saying Fudge was still MoM at the end of OOP, but JKR has definitely stated there will be a new MoM. On her web site, if you go to the RUMORS section, you can read a clipping from the daily prophet scrolling along the bottom of the page stating that Fudge had been chased from office. I'm not certain that it is still up, but it definatly was there not so long ago. Also JKR has made these statements: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next books? JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of information, I hear you cry! Rumors Harry will be asked to be MoM in book 7 JKR: Seventeen is much too young to enter politics F.A.Q. Will Author Weasley be the new MoM? Alas, no. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It was also one of the "book 6 predictions" threads that was running on the OT Chatter list, and if I remember correctly many people are guessing it will be Amelia Bones. I for one think that it will be an unknown DE, so that it will add to the conflict with the Order of Phoenix. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caesian at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 21:04:39 2005 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:04:39 -0800 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Git (Spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125715 In honor of the Bloomsbury Adult Book Cover - http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2005/03/adulthbpbloomsbury.html (won't elaborate for those who would rather not know) - I wanted to repost a tiny excerpt from 105427, Fri?Jul?9,?2004? Subject:? HP and the Half Blood Git excerpt: In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, message # 105304, "ge25y" suggested Snape as the HBP. I agree. Many possibilities are intriguing but Snape's mystery is already driving the plot. Some might say that a central message in the Septology is that the world is not divided into Good People and Death Eaters. I would agree. But in the case of Snape, I'll guide that point to it's logical conclusion - that the world is not divided into Death Eaters and people who aren't Evil Gits. And so I hope the HBP is our proud, nasty Potions Master. Snape... is already perhaps the most compelling character in the books. I want to know why. Caesian From beth6581 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 05:04:38 2005 From: beth6581 at yahoo.com (beth6581) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 05:04:38 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125716 I may have missed this, either in the book or in discussion here, but I found the physical description of Lily in Snape's Worst Memory (in OOTP) a little odd -- even though it was a very brief description of her, the fact that JKR gave her "thick, dark red hair that fell to her shoulders" leaves me with more of a vision of Ginny Weasely than anyone else. Especially odd because we know that Aunt Petunia is a blonde. I often find myself wondering what kind of familial connection JKR has in mind for her characters. Ron says at one point in CoS that "If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out." Indicating to me at least, that at one point in earlier generations, no one was marrying Muggles, thus keeping open the possibility for a relation to exist between two or more characters from Harry's or his parents' generation; i.e The Weasleys, the Blacks, The Malfoys, The Potters, The Riddles, or even a connection in the Evans family we may not know about - perhaps Lily wasn't the first witch in the family, just the first witch in, say 50 years or so....I don't know where I'm going with this, truly, I probably have all sorts of facts mixed up. I always try to keep in mind, however, that JKR insists that we should all be trying to figure out why LV didn't die. One thought that keeps popping into my head is that since Lily's love saved Harry, and that love was in Harry's blood protecting him, perhaps LV also had some of the Evans/Potter blood in him thus protecting him from the rebound. Maybe while that 'love-protection' saved him from dying, it ruined him because, unlike Harry, he was incapable of returning that feeling of love, so the spell couldnt rebound entirely. JKR also states firmly that LV has never loved or cared for anyone...so if any of what I just said has even the slightest amount of truth to it, I still dont know how it would effect the final outcome. Anyway, just some thought, but enough of my late night ramblings -- have I written too much for a newcomer? :) Beth From ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 21:44:57 2005 From: ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com (Constance Vigilance) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:44:57 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Git (Spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125717 > In honor of the Bloomsbury Adult Book Cover - > > > Caesian reposted a tiny excerpt from 105427, Fri?Jul?9,?2004? > Subject:? HP and the Half Blood Git > > excerpt: > > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, message # 105304, "ge25y" > suggested Snape as the HBP. I agree. Many > possibilities are intriguing but Snape's mystery is already driving the > plot. > > And so I hope the HBP is our proud, nasty Potions Master. Snape... is > already perhaps the most compelling character in the books. I want to > know why. > Now CV: Some have theorized that the 7 tasks in SS match up to the 7 books: 1 - Fluffy (three heads = introduce the trio) 2 - Devil's Snare = danger down a hole 3 - Enchanted Keys = Sirius flies to safety 4 - Chess Game = Contest of champions 5 - Unconscious Troll = Things being handled by others 6 - Potions = HPB 7 - Mirror = (Unknown, although personally, I'm betting that this book is Harry Potter and the Return of Quirrell.) So, Book 6 is related to the Potions puzzle. This could mean that potions, or the Potions Master or logic or any or all of these are central to this book. I'm all for it! ~Constance Vigilance (Wow! Two posts in one day. That makes, for this year, um, a total of 2) From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 17:43:54 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 17:43:54 -0000 Subject: Covers! *HBP spoilers* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125718 becky: > So, I guess I'll start off-- At first I assumed that man with Harry > wasn't Dumbledore but the man from the snippet; then I realized he has > the half-moon spectacles. Dumbledore looks horrified-- doesn't bode > well! > I take it that you're looking at the Scholastic cover, the one that shows them looking into what looks like the Pensieve, and yeah, I'm getting the feeling from that one and from the Bloomsbury kids' edition, which shows Harry and Dumbledore with wands out, surrounded by flame, that my prediction of DD's demise in book six is still a good bet. Though that bearded gent with the glasses COULD be Aberforth... And then there's the Bloomsbury adult edition, which shows the cover of a battered book, reading, "Advanced Potion Making." So the predictions that Harry would get an O on his Potions OWL seems to have been good as well! Antosha From margotcragg at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 02:43:10 2005 From: margotcragg at hotmail.com (pookasmorning) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 02:43:10 -0000 Subject: House identification after Hogwarts (or, Slytherins need not apply) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125719 I was reading some speculation as to what Houses certain adults had been sorted into, and it set me to wondering. What happens to House identification post-Hogwarts? The children at Hogwarts spend seven of their formative years having their respective house loyalties and prejudices drummed into them. And these aren't simply baseless stereotypes; the Hat claims to sort according to criteria, so they (and we) have to assume there is at least some basis for judging people by their House. It doesn't seem logical that students would simply forget that Hufflepuffs = Duffers upon receiving their diplomas. And given that a large percentage of the British wizarding community graduated from Hogwarts, it also seems logical that these biases would carry over into society at large. So how would they affect things like, say, employment opportunities? If a Hufflepuff were being interviewed for a job requiring swift mental reflexes, would he or she automatically lose out to a Ravenclaw? Would a Gryffindor hire a Slytherin for a job requiring teamwork? More importantly, would a Gryffindor vote for a Slytherin (if there is voting)? Would they let their daughter bring one home for dinner? In short, what are the long-term societal effects of Sorting? - Pooka From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 17:57:41 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 17:57:41 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125720 lupinlore" Wrote: > I maintain that if JKR lets this > drop it will be a major > failure on her part. After all the hell Harry went through last year the little unpleasantness in the detention class must seem like a very small thing to him, and with Voldemort back I imagine the adults will be far too busy trying to stay alive to worry about it much. Umbridge has lost her job and been disgraced, she's yesterday's news, I don't see why Rowling needs to ever mention her name again. Harry may well be suffering from post traumatic shock syndrome by now, but it won't be because of Umbridge's detention. Eggplant From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 22:16:28 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:16:28 -0000 Subject: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism & the Nature of Choice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125721 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debbie" wrote: > > ...edited... > > Porphyria also asked some excellent follow-up questions, to which I > can add little except to point to elements of OOP that may be > relevant to the questions: > > 1. What can we say about the Muggle/Wizard distinction? Is it > fundamentally elitist that Muggles are incapable of becoming > Wizards? > bboyminn: I touched on this before. What I hear you asking, reframed, is whether it is fundamentally elitiest that we mere muggles are incapable of becoming musical or scientific geniuses. I think not, it is just the natural order of things. True, there may be elitism, but it is not in the idea that muggles can't become magical. Obviously from the Pureblood themes, some wizard consider themselve a far superior race than muggles. That is elitism, the idea that /we/ are inherently better than /you/. While it is obvious that wizards are superior beings in magical ways, muggle are superior in their knowledge and abilities in technilogical and scienticfic ways. Each group having developed their particular genius by applying their abilities in order to fulfill their needs. Elitism can manifest itself in many way, and is found on many levels in all aspects of our society. Is it elitist for the jocks to get all the glory in high school? Is it elitest that those of above average intellect (the krell boys and nerds) are at the bottom of the H.S. pecking order, down there with stoners and greasers? So, the answer is, of course it is, but the greater question is, on a grander scale, is that a bad thing? > Debbie: > 2. Is there anything wrong with the books' depiction of Muggles? Do > they unfairly bear the brunt of hostility? > bboyminn: In a recent discussion of the good and bad aspects of the Weasley family, I was reminded of the TV show 'Malcolm in the Middle'. There is a family that is unbelievably over the top, but at the same time there is enough truth in it that we can identify with them. The show reflects the chaos of living in a house full of boys. How parents are preceived by kids as overbearing, embarassing, and overprotective. It reflects disfunctional families. It also reflects love, loyalty, genius (each in their own way), and values. Really does sound like the Weasleys. So, I think we need to temper our view of muggles, and especially the Dursley, with a little artistic license. They are exaggerated, but it is done to show us just how much truth there is to them. Also, the author needs to paint Harry situation as bad, in order of us to be as enchanted and awed by the wizard world as Harry is; it's the classic Cinderella story. > Debbie: > 3. Is Hogwarts an elitist institution? Does its resemblance to Eton, > with its cliquish houses, weird sports, funny uniforms and symbolic, > honor-based competitions replicate the elitist values of the British > Empire, critique them, or even satirize them? > bboyminn: How can it be an elitist school when it is the only school? True, Hogwarts does reflect some of the quirks and curiousities of the UK's private schools (private by US standards, supported by private rather than public funds). I think Hogwarts regards itself as the elite school in that it's members think that /they/ get the best education, and /they/ have the best school, and /they/ have the best Quidditch teams, and /they/ are the biggest school. But that's all pretty normal. I'm sure Cambridge and Oxford look down on each other in the UK, just as Yale and Harvard look down on each other in the US, but we are not so much seeing elitism, as school loyalty. > Debbie: > > 4. Is Harry a member of the elite, even among Wizards? In which ways > is he privileged by birth, inheritance, exceptional 'natural' talent > or special treatment from powerful benefactors? > bboyminn: Harry is certainly special and unique as well as famous, and is regared as such by the wizard world, but that's much different that /elite/. Harry does not have a 'holier that thou', 'I'm better than you' attitude. My impression of /elitism/ is that those in the group set themselves above other by a belief in their own superiority in all things. That doesn't fit Harry or his friends. > Debbie: > 5. Is there an inconsistency in the way that the books treat the > problem > of Blood vs. Choice? ... Dumbledore explains ... in CoS: "It is our > choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our > abilities." > bboyminn: I'm afraid that people are in error when they take this as an absolute defining statement of all things in the wizards world. Further, I think they are mistaken to place so much emphasis on 'Choices'. Look at what the statement really says; it doesn't say choices define and dictate any and all things. It says that what we do with our abilities, that is the choices we make, tell far more about a person the the actual abilities themselves. You may be a genius, that is an ability, but how you choose to use your genius tells the world more about you than the mere fact that you are a genius. It is in this sense that choices are important. I seem no conflict between Dumbledore bit of wisdom, and the separation of wizards and muggles, or the emphasis in the books on purity of blood. These are all separate issues. Just because Dumbledore imparted some wisdom on Harry, does not mean that wisdom absolutely dictates the essense and nature of the wizard world. Again, I think people are taking this statement about choice to too much of an extreme, and are placing undo emphasis on /choice/ while ignoring the overal statement made by Dumbledore. > Debbie: > > 6. How do the books explicitly explore the problem of bigotry and > elitism? I'm always amused at Draco's multifarious reasons for > condemning his opponents: Ron is poor, Hermione is Muggle-born, > Hagrid is a servant, andHarry, heaven forbid, keeps the wrong > company. [snipped] Do the books' genuineattempts at criticizing > elitism confront ... > bboyminn: I really don't think elitism is the key question. I think the books explore human nature, and in their fictional way, touch on issues and attitudes that we face everyday in real life. Life isn't perfect, but a fictional book like this can help us see life inconsistencies in perspective, and help us see what should truly be valued in life. On a slight tangent, let's look the wizard's attitude toward muggles in light of the separation of the muggle and wizard worlds. First, let's not forget that it was the muggles who force the separation of the two worlds. Muggle persecution of the wizard world lead to a permanent breach between them. Also, it's not unusual in the real world for like-minded individuals to set themselves apart from others. Illustrations- School for the Performing Arts, Chinatown, Church (Catholic/Protestant/Jew), and many other ways. A good example might be movie stars. They have to live in a private world of other movie star (Beverly Hills, Malabu, Bel Aire, Brentwood) because the intrusion of fans and the paparazzi have made it impossible for them to function in the muggle world. That parallels wizards nicely. On the subject of wizards hiding from muggles because muggle would be wanting magical solutions to all their problems, I'm reminded of Star Trek's Prime Directive. The Prime Directive states that space travelers can not interfer with the normal developement of any new planets they find. They can only exchange technology with planets that are of nearly equal technological developement to their own. Think of the chaos that would reign in our world if it were actually discoovered the Magical Beings were real. It would be the equivalent to space alien appearing in our world. Some would exalt them as savoirs, other would condemn them as agents of the Devil. Some would attempt to control and exploit magic. Other's would want to keep it hidden for the masses so they could exploit the power for themselves. Other's would simply try to figure out how they could make a buck of magic. Each country would try to form magical armies, and develop magical weapons. People would try to use magic as a way of avoiding responsibility. In our current world, as a global society, we are killing ourselves with glutony, but rather than eat less or eat wiser, we would prefer a magical solution that would let us eat like pigs and never gain a pound. Chaos I say, utter chaos. Following on with the Prime Directive concept, it's possible the all human beings have this same magical potential in them, but it is dormant and unevolved. Perhaps the wizards think it is best to let evolution and social development bring muggle to magic rather than drop it on unsophisicated masses out of the blue. This same concept can be illustrate with genius. There is some scientific speculation that we all have genius potential. That in reality, the average human only uses 10% (pick a number) of the brain's capacity. Imagine the magic we could perform if we could tap that other 90%. So, the present or absent of the manifestation of magic in a being, may not be a matter of magic vs muggle, but a matter of active capability vs dormant capability. The point here is that, like the Star Trek Prime Directive, it's probably is best if wizards let muggle socially and developmentally evolve magical ability through a natural process. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 8 22:18:04 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:18:04 -0000 Subject: Pensieves, Potions, and Peril: The HBP Covers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125722 Well, the HBP covers are out. They show: S P O I L E R S ! ! ! ! ! 1) Harry and DD staring into a large stone bowl, possibly a pensieve (Scholastic Cover) 2) A battered textbook of Advanced Potions (Bloomsbury Adult Cover) 3) Harry and DD wreathed in flame from DD's wand, both with fierce/angry/frightened expressions (Bloomsbury Children's Cover) Well, what can we deduce? I think the most obvious things are: A)Interaction between Harry and DD will be important, B) advanced potions will play a role C) Harry and DD will face some kind of serious attack/danger OK, now for the speculation: 1) HBP identity -- well, DD is on two of the covers, and a potions book on one. That would mean, I suppose, that based on the covers DD and Snape are the two best candidates. 2) The pensieve -- if it IS a pensieve, is DD showing Harry important aspects of the past? Perhaps he is revealing his own past with Grindlewald, or the past of Voldemort/Tom Riddle, or the reason he trusts Snape. 3) Potions -- will Harry get into Advanced Potions? The book in the Bloomsbury cover is probably not his, as it is worn and ragged and Harry has no need to buy used books. Could it be Snape's? Could it be Dumbledore's? Could it belong to one of the Weasleys? 4) Harry/DD interaction -- will DD be tutoring Harry? If so in what? Defense? Occlumency? Legilimency? Some have speculated that perhaps DD will tutor Harry in potions. Actually, the potions book and the pensieve could fit together. Perhaps one lesson in advanced potions is making the fluid for a pensieve. Or the book may have been carried by someone in a pensieve memory, such as a young Snape or Tom Riddle. 5) Expressions -- on the Bloomsbury Children's Edition, DD and Harry are both angry/fierce/frightened. But what to make of the expressions on the scholastic edition, particular with regards to Dumbledore? Is he frightened? Surprised? Or is this a lofty look of power? Lupinlore From mz_annethrope at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 10:37:30 2005 From: mz_annethrope at yahoo.com (mz_annethrope) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 10:37:30 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125723 Finwitch wrote: > Now, where IS this house-elf going to end up? > > Will it be so that he'll go to Narcissa (family-tie) > or that he will stay (house-tie). > > I think it is house-tie, or Kreacher would have gone to Malfoys to > stay when Sirius' Mother died. > > It's the house of Black Kreacher serves. (Note that Narcissa was > IN the tapestry... and Bellatrix, too!) He wasn't taking orders from > Tonks who had been burned off the tapestry. (And Sirius recognised > that as the reason, and then burned ALL the names off it...). > > But Sirius wasn't in it, either. So why was Kreacher taking orders > from him? Was it just because Sirius owned the house? Or because > Sirius had LIVED in that house until he left at sixteen... mz_annethrope: Here's an idea: a house elf is analogous to a serf. A serf is bound to the land, but has to serve the master of the house by tilling the land and performing various other duties. The serf has no freedom with regards to the master. A house elf likewise is bound to a house, but serves the family that owns the house (the wizarding world being a bit more egalitarian than the medieval world). Rather than till the soil and return most of the produce to the master, the house elf takes orders from the master and mistress and is bound to obey those orders. So the house elf is bound to the specific house, and is a slave to the masters of the house. That's why I think Kreacher stayed on in the Black house during the years between Mrs. Black's death and Sirius' return to the house. He was bound to the house and was not free to leave, or at least not free to reside any other place. The only time he leaves is when he twists Sirius' command "Get out of here" (sorry, don't have text in hand) to mean he's free to visit Narcissa. And that's why I don't think he'll be rushing off to serve the Malfoy's in the next book, assuming he will be alive to serve them. With regards to Sirius, Kreacher doesn't seem much inclined to take orders from him. I suspect that's because Kreacher doesn't think he's bound to serve him. After all, Sirius has been burned out of the family tree. As far as Kreacher's concerned he's still serving the portrait in the hallway and not the disowned son. My suspicion is that if Kreacher is still alive in the next book (which I doubt) he'd be happy to serve Narcissa or Draco were they to become owners of the Black house. But Andromeda or Tonks can forget about it if they get the property. mz_annethrope (who really wonders how house elves manage to beget the next generation) From valy1x2 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 18:17:36 2005 From: valy1x2 at hotmail.com (Valy) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:17:36 +0100 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125724 Tammy said: I take exception to that... Muggles and Wizards are basically "made" differently - it doesn't make one superior to the other. Men are made differently from women - which makes them able to pee standing up. And while I (at times) wish I had that ability, it doesn't mean they're superior 'cause they've got it. Valy replies: I totally agree. But I think the oldest pure blood wizaring families surely had muggle ancestors. I don't think they've been wizards since their ancestor apes. (Despite I would be amused by a Ape changing his mate into a figg by waving a random stick! Hooga booga!) And I don't think the wizards are a 'race', since muggles give birth to wizards, etc., wizards give birth to squibs, etc. I think the difference they make is from all the prejudices and persecutions from the muggles. I think in that time, *lots* wizards and witches married muggles, giving birth to half-blood, but constantly getting harassed by muggles forced them to live in "an another world", and there, wizards married wizards, etc. You're either born wizard or not, even if the magical gene is dominant. It's like seers' families. You're either born as seer or not, no matter if you're wizard, muggle or squib. Look at Trelawney (Sorry, but I always spell her name wrong...), some aren't believing her as a seer, some does, and she's from the family of a famous seer, etc. There's black husband and white wife having a black daughter and a white son (despite it's rare.) Well... that's my opinion! =P Tammy said: Perhaps many of the wizards feel they are superior, but place them into a situation where they have to cook, clean, and do the laundy without magic and they'd feel infinitely inferior in a hurry. Valy replies: Yep yep. Before knowing being a wizard, did Harry knew how to clean house and wash dishes by clasping his hands? No. A wizard not knowing his powers can't control them, so... Tammy said: As for the separation of the two, it's necessary. Muggles would constantly be looking for magical solutions to their problems, if they actually managed to accept it. In all likelihood, it would return to the days of witch trials, because we don't like something we can't understand. Magic is the core of "things you can't understand." Valy replies: And if both worlds rejoined, some muggles wouldn't believe it. Like UFOS, ghosts, etc. And some muggles would abuse the magic. Asking first for little problems, then for useless or baaaaad things. And some evil muggles could use some wizards to make weapons, take over the world, etc... And vice-versa! Have we ever seen massive destruction weapons in the wizarding world yet? No. Imagine English wizards would make war to any foreign wizards? (Like Hagrid's protestations in Vol.4 about "those foreigners/strangers".) Combines magical and muggle weapons, and world will change itself into a load of ashes. Valy. From ryokas at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 22:40:37 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:40:37 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! *Cover SPOILERs* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125725 > UK children's version shows the same two engulged by flames, both > holding wands. Adult version shows weathered looking magical book. For some initial speculation, the flames look a bit too controlled, more like a wreath of fire than a natural blaze. DD's wand-tip seems to be glowing, too. Not much to go on, yet. > Couldn't make out the title but someone on the mugglenet comments > board said it's an advanced guide to potions (!) Hm? It was clear enough on Mugglenet's picture. "Advanced Potion- making, by Libarius Borage". The name says nothing to me, I doubt it's supposed to. - Kizor From northsouth17 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 11:32:13 2005 From: northsouth17 at yahoo.com (northsouth17) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:32:13 -0000 Subject: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125726 a_svirn: > After all most of us can't help but identify with Muggles ? a > fact that makes muggle/wizard relationship far more interesting > topic than "magical brethren". Although JKR understandably > prefers us to focus on the magical part of the specter, since > that way we won't dwell on the fundamental inequality of the > Potterverse. I wonder if Harry's hatred for the Dursleys is meant to protect him - and us - from this inequality. When Harry leaves the Muggle World for the WW, he does it without a single look back, and of course he has absolutely no reason to, and this way he has no cause to dwell on these issues - and to some extent, neither do we since there's just no sympathetic Muggle characters for us to feel sorry for. Actually, I think that's not strictly ture. We have Petunia - who might not be quite sympathetic, but jealousy of Lily's magical powers, right back in PS, is very clear and sympathetic. Perhaps the Dursleys' harsh treatment of Harry is to some extent to distance themseleves from him, thus saving Dudley from reliving Petunia's jealousy when Lily turned out to be a witch. If Dudley had looked at Harry with anything short of total disdain, he could well be jealous of his powers. As it is, it's just another nasty trait of Harry's. (Hermione has all the problems Harry avoids by being from a dysfunctional family. But they're never dealt with except very barely "Prefect is something they can understand".) > > 4. Harry is not a member of elite in Hogwarts. But there is no > denying that he is a "DD's favourite boy", and that DD is not shy > when it comes to playing favourites. I'm not sure Hogwarts has much of an elite, but this might be because Harry doesn't notice it - because he is part of it, if it exists. He's an older student, he's the star of the Quidditch team, he's not quite popular, but he's not an outcast either, and beyond that he is Harry Potter, who shows up in every end of term speech. Overall though, I think the general "popularity" issues within the school haven't been touched on. Slytherins are maligned (by the text) but not necessarily seen as inferior. Hufflepuff were, a bit, but we have strong Huff characters like Cedric, Zacharias Smith, Ernie Macmillan and Susan Bones. So I'm not sure what the elite at Hogwarts is. It's not the Houses (much), not the prefects, not popularity, not academic. Athletic, perhaps. Northsouth From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 20:44:53 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:44:53 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125727 > GEO: Though I agree Magic is something that's probably not > understandable, but do you really think seriously that the whole > of mankind will go into a rage and starting lynchings against > wizards and wtiches. Yes there will be lynchings, pograms and > other nasty things from various portions of humanity, but I don't > think it will be as you described. Even if it was only a small number of dissidents, there are a thousand instances of what a *small* group can do to larger ones. I think that Wizards would quickly become extinct if they revealed themselves to the world. They don't exactly seem to be excessive breeders like muggles. It wouldn't even take a lot of people to hunt wizards to extinction. As for Muggles using magic, I'm not sure that's even possible. I think it's really an either / or proposition. I doubt most electronic medical equipment would even work on a wizard, and I doubt most magical solutions would even work for muggles. I admit it's my own fanwank but I think it makes sense. After all, don't you think that wizards would use techonlogy if it was reasonably feasible to do so? As for their elitism, I think the wizards are justified in their beliefs, to a certain extent. Let's face it, the ability to use magic is a far larger difference than skin color, gender, or the ability to pee standing up. Magic makes a joke out of the fundamental natural laws that we muggles use in our everyday lives. That's pretty darn impressive. I don't think that wizards are morally superior to us or that their lives are somehow worth more, but I think in terms of ability, wizards have the edge on us. I know I think it would be cool to be a wizard. phoenixgod2000 From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Mar 8 23:04:31 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 23:04:31 -0000 Subject: Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? In-Reply-To: <20050308005249.85486.qmail@web52604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jina haymaker wrote: Jina > If there was another person before Quirrell (which I'm not too sure > there was) that Voldy shared a body with then I would have to > think that it was a faithful death eater. And when the DE died > Voldy would still live (as we saw in the SS/PS). Geoff: If I read things correctly, there wasn't anyone before Quirrell. Voldemort speaking.... '"Nevertheless, I was as powerless as the weakest creature alive and without the means to help myself... for I had no body and every spell which might have helped me required the use of a wand... I remember only forcing myself, sleeplessly, endlessly, second by second to exist.. I settled in a faraway place, in a forest and I waited... surely, one of my faithful Death Eaters would try to find me... one of them would come and perform the magic I could not, to restore me to a body... but I waited in vain..." The shiver ran once more around the circle of listening Death Eaters. Voldemor let the silence spiral horribly before continuing. "Only one power remained to me. I cuold possess the bodies of others. But I dared not go where other humans were plentiful for I knew that the Aurors were still abroad and searching for me. i sometimes inhabited animals - snakes, of course, being my preference - but I was little better off inside them than as pure spirit fort heir bodies were ill- adapted to perform magic... and my possession of them shortened their lives; none of them lasted long... Then... four years ago... the means for my return semed assured. A wizard - young, foolish and gullible - wandered acorss my path in the forest I had made my home. Oh, he seemed the very chance I had been dreaming of... for he was a teacher at Dumbledore's school... he was easy to bend to my will... he brought me back to this country and after a while, I took possession of his body, to supervise him closely as he carried out my orders. But my plan failed. I did not manage to steal the Philosopher's Stone. I was not to be assured immortal life. I was thwarted... thwarted, once again, by Harry Potter..."' (GOF "The Death eaters" pp.566-67 UK edition) It looks to me as if the only human he ever possessed completely was Quirrell because his possession of Harry in OOTP was very brief and Ginny's possession in COS was, of course, by Diary!Tom. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 23:03:01 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 23:03:01 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! *Cover SPOILERs* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125729 > Hm? It was clear enough on Mugglenet's picture. "Advanced Potion- > making, by Libarius Borage". The name says nothing to me, I doubt > it's supposed to. > > - Kizor Valky: Oh I don't know about it saying nothing ;D Might be a very big clue, might be a herring, but it is on the adult version cover so I wouldn't put it past Jo to be having a little game with us. Libatius is close to the latin word libatus or could even be linked to the word Libationis a sacrificial offering (esp drink). And Borage has long been held in Herbal lore as the star of courage, it was also once said to bring happiness wherever it grows. Libatius Borage might have a meaning interesting enough to speculate upon.. (except dare we go down the to Icklebogg Storge again? ) Valky From inkling108 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 23:09:09 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 23:09:09 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! *Cover SPOILERs* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125730 Kizor wrote: > Hm? It was clear enough on Mugglenet's picture. "Advanced Potion- > making, by Libarius Borage". The name says nothing to me, I doubt > it's supposed to. > Inkling now: Yes, Mugglenet now has very clear images, plus other goodies, as does Leaky Cauldron. I do think the potions text being on the cover is quite significant. On the Today show this morning (video also on Mugglenet)Al Roker was really wailing on Arthur A. Levine, wanting to know if Snape is the HBP -- pretty funny, you could hear the cameramen laughing! . To my mind, this text being on the cover raises the likelihood of Snape being the one and that *is* way cool! Inkling From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Mar 8 23:27:16 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:27:16 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism References: <1110272905.11339.31350.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003c01c52436$5f5a1420$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 125731 >Here we are -- the first in a series of discussion questions raised >by Dr. Philip Nel in his pre-OOP readers guide to the HP novels, Sadly I'm sure I'd get a swarm of Howlers if I was to suggest what this guy's nickname might be... >"Do the novels critique or sustain a class system? Are 'wizards,' as >Pico Ayer suggests, 'only regular Muggles who've been to the right >school'? Because Hogwarts is only available only to those privileged >enough to be wizards, is it an elitist school? Or, because Malfoy's >snobby attitude is not presented sympathetically, is Hogwarts >actually anti-elitist?" >1. What can we say about the Muggle/Wizard distinction? Is it >fundamentally elitist that Muggles are incapable of becoming Wizards? What's the spell of the HP books? The fact that they depict a different world to our own. A world that's run on different principles to our own. Muggles and Wizards are subspecies of humans biologically but culturally they could just as easily be lions and elephants. The entire concept of "elitist" in this question really misses the point. >2. Is there anything wrong with the books' depiction of Muggles? Do >they >unfairly bear the brunt of hostility? The Dursleys are a satire of the >petit bourgeoisie -- social climbers. But isn't Harry a social >climber? Is >Hermione? Do the books associate sadism and pettiness with the middle >class via the Dursleys? What about the books' attitude towards >Squibs? Do we find Filch more or less sympathetic when we discover >this about him? I think that Muggles are correctly identified by the WW as a threat. They are a cultural threat, stemming from the steady influx of wizards from a part Muggle background, and they are a physical threat, which is only prevented by the fact that the WW lives in a constant state of emergency to ensure that it's entirely hidden from view. The way the RW treats _any_ minority culture should warn us about the way that Muggledom would treat the WW if wizards came out of hiding. And, well, the petty bourgeoisie are quite often sadistic and petty. >3. Is Hogwarts an elitist institution? Does its resemblance to Eton, >with >its cliquish houses, weird sports, funny uniforms and symbolic, >honor-based competitions replicate the elitist values of the British >Empire, critique them, or even satirize them? I'd identify it as an _elite_ institution but not necessarily an _elitist_ one. Three strands of children appear to go there: one of them are the "Etonian", aristocratic, pureblood types for whom a "Hogwarts education" is something that their parents regard as essential in the word, the second are the Muggleborns who would be totally unable to function in the WW without some sort of introduction and guide to survival in a world that runs on principles that are totally alien to the ones they've grown up with, and the third are the wizarding families for whom the _nature_ of a Hogwarts education is what matters. It's a "school of witchcraft and wizardry": the education children get there is what sets them up for a professional job such as the Ministry. >4. Is Harry a member of the elite, even among Wizards? In which ways >is he privileged by birth, inheritance, exceptional 'natural' talent >or special >treatment from powerful benefactors? Really, Harry is disadvantaged rather than privileged. He doesn't know the ropes without being told. Each stage of his introduction to the WW needs a guide, starting with Hagrid. He's got natural talent and will do well, but without the help and support he's been given, he'd have fallen flat on his face long ago. >5. Is there an inconsistency in the way that the books treat the >problem >of Blood vs. Choice? On the one hand, I think most of us would agree >that >Dumbledore explains the moral of the books to Harry in CoS: "It is our >choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our >abilities." I suspect that most wizards just don't care about this. Only a very few are purebloods anyway, the rest have a muggle or two tucked away in the bloodline but are more concerned with getting on with everyday life on the eel farm without needing to sweat over the big issues. >6. How do the books explicitly explore the problem of bigotry and >elitism? >I'm always amused at Draco's multifarious reasons for condemning his >opponents: Ron is poor, Hermione is Muggle-born, Hagrid is a servant, >and >Harry, heaven forbid, keeps the wrong company. [snipped] Do the >books' genuine >attempts at criticizing elitism confront or ironicize the ways that >they >also support elitism? Or do the books' progressive views simply clash >with >their conservative ones? I think that underlying the books (if you care to look hard enough for it) is the message that our fears of "cultural contamination" and the like are really unfounded, and that the "others" whom we fear are in reality very few. There's enough Muggle influence coming in to present the WW with new possibilities but not enough to threaten it. Similarly, the bigots are presented as being few and diminishing in numbers. There _are_ I think subtextual things that suggest that there are elements of elitism in the WW (especially in looking at the Ministry) but they are outwith the remit of the story. >Much discussion pre-OOP focused on Stan Shunpike, his working-class >accent, and whether Harry's failure to recognize him indicated that >Hogwarts itself was reserved for elite wizards. In OOP we learned >more about the importance of OWLs to whether a wizard may continue in >a particular subject, and JKR confirmed on her website that anyone >with magical ability may attend Hogwarts. Do these revelations >impact the validity of those arguments? Or do they point more >strongly to a subconscious middle class bias on JKR's part? By contrast, I'd stress that JKR accepts that not all children from the WW necessarily attend Hogwarts. If the family don't feel there's a need for formal qualifications in magic, or if they consider it to be a "snobby, elite" place, or if they can't afford the clothing and books, or all sorts of other reasons, they don't have to take it up. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 23:34:48 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 23:34:48 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! *Cover SPOILERs* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125732 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: To my mind, this text being on the cover > raises the likelihood of Snape being the one and that *is* way cool! GEO: Then by your reasoning considering that Dumbledore is on 2/3 of the covers shouldn't he be the HBP? From snow15145 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 00:41:47 2005 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 00:41:47 -0000 Subject: Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125733 Neri: Whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell? Here's a sentence that Quirrell!Mort says in the end of SS/PS, which has some interesting implications I failed to notice before: SS/PS, Ch. 17 p. 293 US: "See what I have become?" the face said. "Mere shadow and vapour... I have form only when I can share another's body... but there have always been those willing to let me into their hearts and minds... "Willing"? Hearts and minds"? This doesn't sound like some small animals and snakes. So whom did Voldy possess before Quirrell and was that before or during the time he was vapor? Note the "those" and "always". We're likely talking here about several people during a long time. Reminds you of "they, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" (GoF, Ch. 33, p.648 US). It's the DEs that Voldy is talking about here. >snipped< Snow: Sounds more like who possessed Tom Riddle! "See what I have become?" the face said not Voldemort said. This being or entity is only alive when he shares another person's body but he has always found willing participants like, possibly, Tom Riddle. Tom was looking to defeat death in any way that he possibly could. If Tom had been confronted with an entity that had an immortality factor but needed to share a human life form, Tom would have been more than happy to concede to its demands of sharing his own body. When the two became one Tom opted for a new name that would be more fitting of the most powerful evil overlord and adopted Lord Voldemort as this new identity. Diary!Tom speaks of Lord Voldemort in a third party reference as though Voldemort was an entirely different person so I would therefore assume that the possession or fusion had not yet fully taken place when Tom was sixteen. This scenario does fit well, I think, especially when Dumbledore in the MOM directs his comments to Tom as if he were making an attempt to appeal to the person that is trapped inside this being who calls himself Voldemort. At one point in the MOM scene right before Voldemort attempts his possession of Harry, he is described as a "faceless figure shimmering and indistinct". Even Bella thought that Voldemort had vanished or was destroyed when she bellowed for him. This was the exact moment that this faceless figure known as Voldemort attempted to possess Harry. Harry felt as though he was locked in the coils of the creature. Harry doesn't recognize any distinctness to Tom Riddle during this possession but that of a snake. There was one other time that Harry experienced himself as a snake and that was when Voldemort possessed the snake that attacked Arthur. Why was Vapormort only left with the power of possession at Godric's Hollow? My answer would be that who ever possessed Tom Riddle, and had the power of possession to do so, was left as vapor, as he had been before he joined with Tom Riddle because the body he inhabited was gone. Go back to the beginning statement where the face said that he is "mere shadow and vapor" without a body to possess. This Vapormort is a possessed entity in itself. This is why Voldemort was left with only one power, the one that belonged to the entity who shared his spirit when Tom's body was destroyed at Godric's Hollow. Voldemort claims that he took several measures to assure his immortality. It is not just the fact that Tom Riddle fused with this possessing entity but also other factors, which allowed the Tom Riddle portion of Voldemort to adhere to and stay somewhat alive with the possessed entity when Tom's physical body was destroyed. This duel immortality precaution on Tom's part allowed Tom to stay as alive as the entity that merged with him. Now who could this possessed entity be, Salazar is a good runner up firstly because he is a parcelmouth. The second factor is the dark mark insignia that portraits the basilisk protruding from the mouth of the statue of Salazar in the Chamber. What more fitting emblem to mark your followers with but an insignia that portraits Salazar Slytherin if Tom did in fact fuse with Salazar. Also, remember what Diary!Tom had said to Harry in the Chamber; Voldemort is my past, present and future. This statement supports the theory because as Diary!Tom he was sixteen and Voldemort would be representative of his connection or fusion with Salazar; Salazar is his past, at the present he is under his tutelage to become the future Lord Voldemort. As far as who he may have possessed at an earlier date other than Tom Riddle, I would speculate that it was the Dumbledore defeated Grindlewald, which would tie in with the reasoning of Dumbledore's apprehension to kill Voldemort in the MOM. When Dumbledore attempted to thwart Voldemort in this scene, he was left with a "faceless figure shimmering and indistinct" entity that attempted possession of Harry. De se vie for Dumbledore who had fought Grindlewald and vanquished him but vanquished him to what? Dumbledore was afraid when this scene happened because he knew that this entity, above the screams of Bella and Harry's relief that Voldemort had gone, was very much alive and needy of another body to continue his vile efforts. This is the reason Dumbledore did not want to attempt to destroy Voldemort; all that would come of it would be to unleash the entity, again. Voldemort's shared status with Harry will be his downfall because the beast must be killed from within and Harry has the means to do this because of his connection with Voldemort. It's just how I see it. Snow From beth6581 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 03:55:17 2005 From: beth6581 at yahoo.com (beth6581) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 03:55:17 -0000 Subject: Neville's Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125734 Hello! I am new to this group and just reread OOTP...I noticed something that I couldnt find discussed in any recent threads, so I thought I'd ask opinions: In the Death Chamber, at the end of OOTP, a Death Eater breaks Neville's wand in half. He says to Harry (through a swollen nose), "My gran's going do kill be, dat was by dad's old wand..." Now, if that's the case, this means Neville never went to Ollivander's to pick out his own wand, or in Ollivander's words, to have the wand choose the wizard. That would mean that Neville wasn't entirely compatible with his wand, which in my opinion, would account for his poor grades and performances during classes...not his ability, as everyone, including his gran, seems to think. For, if it was his ability, I dont think he would ever have done so well during DA meetings. If he could make so much progress in his Defense Against the Dark Arts with a wand that never "chose" him, I am very interested to see his progress during his sixth year with a wand that is truly his own. Neville is obviously a key player in JKR's final plan; I think, sometimes vying with Harry in terms of bravery and loyalty, and cannot wait to see what awaits Mr. Longbottom in books 6 and 7. I'm really excited that I've found this group, you all have a lot of interesting things to discuss! Beth From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 20:57:57 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:57:57 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > Hannah: The interesting thing about the Potions book is that it > looks so old and battered. Now, I can't see Harry having a second > hand book, since he's not exactly strapped for cash, so I wondered > if this was a bit of a red herring. GEO: I'm sure that it would look that way if it went through a few potions accidents and besides Harry's Fantastic Beasts book I recall wasn't exactly in the best shape either. > We know that this is the book where we find out why DD trusts Snape, > and that there is 'something huge' about Lily Potter. My theory is > that DD will show Harry the young Snape, and that book will > feature. GEO: Explain to me again why they would feature something from a flashback scene and make it the cover of the HBP book. From mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 12:44:39 2005 From: mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com (mohalagirl25) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:44:39 -0000 Subject: New book 6 cover Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125736 Well, they just showed the new Harry Potter Book 6 cover on my local news. It's Professor Dumbledore and Harry!!! What does everyone think of this? I'm really interested in what everyone has to say!!! Amy From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 02:53:00 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:53:00 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125737 > "Advanced > Potion- > Making > by > Libalius Borage" > > The author's name is a bit hard to read, but the title is very clear. > Your brightness/contrast on your monitor may make it hard to read. ;) > I put the picture through some Photoshop conversions, and I am 95% > sure that the author's name is Libalius Borage. The e at the end is > the only thing really hard to read - it might be an accented i or a > funky o, but I am pretty sure it is an e. Actually, now that I really look at it, it seems to be Libatius Borage. What I thought was an "l" actually has a little cross for a "t" and I'm still sure that it is an "e" at the end. Does anyone have any info on the names Libatius or Borage? --lawless From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Mar 9 02:44:59 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 02:44:59 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125738 Beth: > I may have missed this, either in the book or in discussion here, > but I found the physical description of Lily in Snape's Worst > Memory (in OOTP) a little odd -- even though it was a very brief > description of her, the fact that JKR gave her "thick, dark red > hair that fell to her shoulders" leaves me with more of a vision > of Ginny Weasely than anyone else. Especially odd because we know > that Aunt Petunia is a blonde. Jen: I find her red hair odd, too. Especially since the Weasleys and Dumbledore also have red hair. Another coincidence like the Mark Evans scenario? Maybe not. I don't think JKR is going for familial connections here though, given all the evidence that Harry has no other family. But maybe there is some kind of *magical* connection, an ability certain subsets of people share. Sort of like Albinism in Muggles. Someone with Albinism can be (or ususally is?) born into a family with no other Albinism present. And many people with Albinism have vision problems. Both traits are present. So why not red hair co-joined with special magical power? Now if only Harry had red hair my speculation might lead somewhere. But alas, if there *is* a special magical ability found in wizard genetics, it's almost certainly marked by the green eyes: {Interview CBBC 2000) "Now, can I ask you: are there any special wizarding powers in your world that depend on the wizard using their eyes to do something? Bit like ... Why do you want to know this? I just vaguely wondered. Why? Well because everyone always goes on about how Harry's got Lily Potter's eyes. Aren't you smart? There is something, maybe, coming about that. I'm going to say no more, very clever." But back to the Pensieve scene. I've never found a satisfactory answer for what important information we find out about Lily in Book 5. JKR said: "We will find out the significant information about Harry's mother in two parts: books 5 and 7. Both are "very important in what Harry ends up having to do." [Read the exact quote from WBUR interview, 1999, Quick Quill Quotes]. So we already knew Lily had red hair and green eyes from the Mirror of Erised. We guessed she was a powerful witch from what happened at Godric's Hollow. She's always been portrayed as a good person and an almost saint-like mother. Check, check, check. All these traits are present in the Pensieve scene. What's new? The only thing left is standing up for Snape, I guess. Or the information we find out about Lily isn't even in the Pensieve scene, but comes at the end of the book when DD explains the blood protection. I didn't feel like I learned anything particularly new there. But then if what Harry 'has to do in the end' is sacrifice himself, that would fit in with the interview comment. Beth: > I always try to keep in mind, however, that JKR insists that we > should all be trying to figure out why LV didn't die. One thought > that keeps popping into my head is that since Lily's love saved > Harry, and that love was in Harry's blood protecting him, perhaps > LV also had some of the Evans/Potter blood in him thus protecting > him from the rebound. Jen: Never thought of that possibility. Interesting speculation. I've always assumed the reason LV didn't die was pretty much the explanation LV himself gives in the graveyard, that his dabbling in immortality saved him. But he's not exactly the best historian, eh? Beth: > Anyway, just some thought, but enough of my late night ramblings -- > have I written too much for a newcomer? :) Never! Welcome to the group. Jen From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 03:09:28 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 03:09:28 -0000 Subject: New book 6 cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mohalagirl25" wrote: > > Well, they just showed the new Harry Potter Book 6 cover on my local > news. It's Professor Dumbledore and Harry!!! What does everyone > think of this? I'm really interested in what everyone has to say!!! > > Amy Antosha Well... It's very interesting--DD and Harry staring enigmatically into what appears to be the Pensieve... But are we sure that it's Albus? Mightn't it be Aberforth? From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 22:38:17 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:38:17 -0000 Subject: Pensieves, Potions, and Peril: The HBP Covers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125741 lupinlore wrote: > OK, now for the speculation: > > 1) HBP identity -- well, DD is on two of the covers, and a potions > book on one. That would mean, I suppose, that based on the covers > DD and Snape are the two best candidates. a_svirn: I wouldn't be too sure of that. There were Harry, Hermione and Buckbeak on the PoA's cover and neither of them had a spell in Azkaban. a_svirn From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Mar 9 03:08:40 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 03:08:40 -0000 Subject: Pensieves, Potions, and Peril: The HBP Covers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > Well, the HBP covers are out. They show: > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > > > > > > > 1) Harry and DD staring into a large stone bowl, possibly a pensieve > (Scholastic Cover) > > 2) The pensieve -- if it IS a pensieve, is DD showing Harry important > aspects of the past? Perhaps he is revealing his own past with > Grindlewald, or the past of Voldemort/Tom Riddle, or the reason he > trusts Snape. > And for the truly obsessive... why is Harry holding his wand in his *left* hand in front of the pensieve/potion/artifact, when he is, in fact, right handed? --Arcum From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 9 03:03:30 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 03:03:30 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125743 Hannah: > > We know that this is the book where we find out why DD trusts > > Snape, and that there is 'something huge' about Lily Potter. My > > theory is that DD will show Harry the young Snape, and that book > > will feature. SSSusan: Actually, Hannah, that comment about the new book answering us these things was made up. The catalog company that listed those tidbits later admitted that Scholastic had actually never provided them with anyinformation about the contents of the new book. Not that that means your theory couldn't prove out in the end.... GEO: > Explain to me again why they would feature something from a > flashback scene and make it the cover of the HBP book. SSSusan: Well, I have thought of one possibility, GEO. The U.S. cover shows Harry & DD looking at what appears to be a pensieve, and there is a lot of eery green light emanating from it and swirling around them. Green light makes me think immediately of one thing: an AK. Since a pensieve replays memories, I'd think it might be possible that the cover depiction *is* of a flashback of sorts, maybe even of the events of GH if DD has a reason to possess a memory of it. Harry's gaining THAT information would certainly be significant enough to warrant a cover reference. Siriusly Snapey Susan From stonehenge.orders at verizon.net Wed Mar 9 03:20:23 2005 From: stonehenge.orders at verizon.net (kjirstem) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 03:20:23 -0000 Subject: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125744 elfundeb wrote: > Dr. Nel's question #4 asks: > > "Do the novels critique or sustain a class system? > Porphyria also asked some excellent follow-up questions, to which I > can add little except to point to elements of OOP that may be > relevant to the questions: > > 1. What can we say about the Muggle/Wizard distinction? Is it > fundamentally elitist that Muggles are incapable of becoming Wizards? > > 6. How do the books explicitly explore the problem of bigotry and > elitism? Do the books' genuine > attempts at criticizing elitism confront or ironicize the ways that > they also support elitism? Or do the books' progressive views simply > clash with their conservative ones? > > > Porphyria's post includes links to early group discussions of class > issues. She also linked to this article: > Voice of the Turtle: "Harry Potter and the closet conservative" by > Richard Adams (31 May 2001) > http://www.voiceoftheturtle.org/reviews/books/richard_potter.shtml kjirstem: Thanks so much for starting up this discussion series, Elfundeb. These are great questions and seem well worth revisiting now and after subsequent books too. Just so I don't forget, for any who want it here is a link to Richard Adams' article in Voice of the Turtle, which I am able to provide thanks to my inefficient information destruction system: http://www.voiceoftheturtle.org/show_article.php?aid=170 I wouldn't call the distinction between the wizard and Muggle worlds "elitist", but I do feel there is an inconsistency in the series' handling of the Muggle/Magic difference versus the class distinctions and outright bigotry within the wizarding world. Within the WW the books are critical of class, blood, and species discrimination, yet the basic set-up of the WW seems to support a big divide between Muggle and Magical people. Somehow this gets my hackles up but I haven't quite got a handle on what is bothering me. In a way it seems hypocritical to tackle the question of bigotry within the magical world without questioning wizarding attitudes toward Muggles. In fact, the portrayal of the Dursleys seems to me to condone the WW sense of superiority. OTOH perhaps I am just not seeing things clearly. I do still hope that this inconsistency, as I see it, will be resolved in the next two books. Personally, I'd like to see Muggle skills or Harry's Muggle upbringing play a pivotal role in "vanquishing" the Dark Lord and I'll hold out hope for that until the end of the series. kjirstem From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 03:25:37 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 03:25:37 -0000 Subject: Does anyone else find the Scabbers/Ron thing revolting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125745 List Elves please note: I'm reposting this and deleting the previous version because the attribution is messed up. My apologies! C. Sandra wrote: > > > I find it thoroughly creepy that Ron and the other Weasleys were deceived into giving so much affection and physical attention (hugs and stroking etc) to a rat that was in fact a vile, unhinged man in disguise. If I was Ron I wouldn't stop washing myself for at least a month. > Carol responds: I can't tell whether the source of your revulsion relates to what you believe is implied pedophilia or just thorough disgust that Peter Pettigrew, murderer and traitor was sleeping on Ron's bed (and very near to Harry) and that Ron at least occasionally petted his rat or scratched his ears as he would with any pet, not realizing that the rat was not a rat (at least not literally). For me, it's more a matter of pity for Ron that the pet he loved didn't deserve his love. I don't think there's much more to it than that. IMO, Peter is essentially lazy and selfish rather than essentially evil. He's only evil when his selfish needs require it (if he has a choice between being killed or committing murder, he'll commit murder), but as the Weasley children's only pet (till Percy got his owl), his basic needs (food, shelter, and disguise) were met and he spent most of his time sleeping. It's only when he realized that Sirius Black had escaped from Azkaban that he apparently began listening in on conversations, and of course as both rat and animagus he had reason to fear Crookshanks. But I don't think that Ron was ever in any danger from Scabbers while he remained in that form, and it was Harry, not Ron, who was in danger from Peter Pettigrew once he was "outed" and escaped to Voldemort. So, no, I don't find the situation disgusting or revolting, only sadly ironic. I'm just glad that Ron now has a pet, Pigwidgeon (sp?), that really is a pet. Too bad he hates Crookshanks, who could sleep on his bed and have his ears or back rubbed and be worthy of the affection. Carol, who's eager to see what everyone thinks of the new book covers! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 04:11:34 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 04:11:34 -0000 Subject: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125746 Tonks: 5. "Doing what is right over what is easy". Choice is more important than blood. Some families like the Weasleys follow what most of us would think is the right way so being in that family would make doing what is right easier. Being a member of the Black family would predispose one to being like them, so here when one follows the right path it will be harder because it mean turning against the blood ties. In the WW world as in the RW families want their memebers to share the same values, experiences, etc. Alla: Is choice more important than blood though? If choice simply "shows" who you really are, doesn't it mean that by your choices you simply show the people around you what kind of person you are. I am not sure that in JKR's world it means that you go against your "predisposition" whatever it means. You said it yourself - being in Weasley family will make doing what is right easier because Weasleys are on the RIGHT side ( here I am back again to the perfect Light and Dark),as JKR sees it and being in Malfoy family will make doing what right much harder. Sirius did choose to break away from his family for said fact I respect him greatly, but if our choices "show what we are", doesn't it mean that in his heart he already was on the side of Light and his choice just exposed it to the world? I think I got myself confused again - I don't want to think that in JKR's world people are what they had been born with, but it seems to me that it could be a possibility. ( Somebody talk me out of it, please) JMO, Alla From melaniertay at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 16:53:29 2005 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:53:29 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy(was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125747 Lupinlore said: > To put it even more strictly, let us suppose wizards are capable of > curing cancer (we know they don't suffer from it, at any rate). I > grant you there is nothing in the books that says this, but let's > suppose for an example. By holding themselves apart and denying > muggles the cures they can provide, are they not guilty of a grave > sin of ommission, in effect murder by implied consent? Well, if wizards don't suffer from Cancer there's no reason to believe they have a cure for it. Why would they? Wizards have a longer life span than muggles as well, but it's natural for them to do so. They probably just naturally do not get muggle diseases, in which case they probably don't have a cure either. If they do not have a cure then it cannot be "murder by implied consent" (which is an iffy long philosophical discussion by itself for even the muggle world's behvior :)). Thus muggleborns and halfbloods have no decision to make. They can't cure them. There probably isn't enough wizards (since they are a very small population) to take care of all of muggle humanities needs (electrical, etc) therefore they must figure it out themselves. Muggles will never be able to apparate and will always need cars. It would be unwise for muggles to sit around waiting for wizards to hand them a portkey. IMHO Mel From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 05:26:50 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 05:26:50 -0000 Subject: Can wizards cure cancer? (Was: Wizard supremacy) (was:Re: Nel Question #4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125748 This is a repost as the original seems to have been eaten by Yahoomort. If it's a duplicate, I'll delete it. Carol Lupinlore wrote: > But of course, that brings up many ethical and moral problems, doesn't it? Saying muggles would "look for magical solutions to their problems" begs the question of what is wrong with looking for magical solutions to problems. If wizards are capable of curing muggle diseases with potions, for instance, then don't they have a moral duty to share their abilities with the rest of humanity? > > To put it even more strictly, let us suppose wizards are capable of curing cancer (we know they don't suffer from it, at any rate). I grant you there is nothing in the books that says this, but let's suppose for an example. By holding themselves apart and denying muggles the cures they can provide, are they not guilty of a grave sin of ommission, in effect murder by implied consent? Carol responds: As Nora has frequently pointed out, argument from absence isn't a very solid argument. IOW, just because the narrator hasn't mentioned any wizards dying from cancer doesn't mean that "we *know* they don't suffer from it." We *do* know that wizards have no cure for myopia or astigmatism or any other of the eye problems that cause Muggles and Wizards alike to rely on eyeglasses (spectacles). We also know that Hogwarts students are as susceptible as any others to the flu (see Trelawney's prediction in her first class in PoA, which seems to be based on past experience rather than the Inner Eye). We know that Perkins, the old warlock who works with Mr. Weasley, suffers from lumbago (GoF, the QWC tent scene). These are all routine ailments for which you'd think the WW potion makers would have developed a cure, but evidently it hasn't happened. Note that St. Mungo's is not a hospital of the type we're familiar with. It doesn't treat cancer or heart disease or perform surgery (stitches are an alien treatment used by Muggle doctors, who are regarded with suspicion by both Ron and Mrs. Weasley). Instead, as stated in the name of the hospital, it's a center for the treatment of *magical* maladies and injuries. Possibly the healers also treat broken bones with a dose of Skele-gro a la Madam Pomfrey, but note the number of wizards from Tom the Innkeeper to (IIRC) Rita Skeeter who have missing teeth. (You'd think the healers could conjure up a leg and a bit of nose for Mad-eye Moody considering that Madam Pomfrey can replace a nose that's blown off. Conjuring a real eye to replace a blinded one seems to be beyond their skill; hence the magical eye in its stead.) Snape and other skilled potion makers can create antidotes to poisonous potions, but Muggles have antidotes, too. Their antidotes, like their poisons, are magical; ours, like our poisons, are science-based. There's no need for wizards to share their remedies with Muggles since the chances of a Muggle being poisoned by a potion are slim to none, just as the chances that a pureblood wizard would swallow Drano are slim to none. We know that wizards live longer than Muggles, but that doesn't imply that no witch or wizard dies from disease. (Mrs. Riddle died in childbirth, which would be impossible if they had a cure for every ailment.) Their longevity results at least in part from the fact that they're more resilient than Muggles when it comes to falls and accidents. They can even survive splinching (yet Sir Nick died from a beheading, which to me seems inconsistent. Oh, well!). But what about old age? Wizards have long lifespans, but they're not immortal. And we *don't know* whether they can die from cancer or heart attacks (is that what killed Ron's uncle who saw the Grim?). Muggles have vaccines against polio and typhoid and smallpox. Are wizards (other than Muggleborns) similarly protected? Are they naturally immune to Muggle diseases? If not, do they have potions to protect against nonmagical diseases and ailments (other than broken bones or broken noses)? As I showed in my first paragraph, it doesn't appear so. Their focus is on magical maladies and (primarily) magical injuries. What evidence do we have that they can treat ordinary human maladies as opposed to magical ones, in particular cancer and other deadly diseases? Very little if any that I can see. It seems unfair, based on such limited evidence, to blame wizards for not sharing remedies they may not even possess. And for the record, I don't think that Hagrid's answer to Harry's question about why Wizards don't want Muggles to discover their existence is the real answer to the question, or at least it's not a complete answer. Hagrid is not a deep thinker (and he's speaking to a child who just turned eleven and just discovered that he's a wizard). If Harry at sixteen asked Dumbledore that same question, I think he'd get a very different answer. There's a lot more to the Muggle/Wizard separation than the unwillingness of wizards to provide magical cures to Muggle problems. Just ask Salazar Slytherin. Carol, who took forever to write this post and hopes she succeeded in making it coherent From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 02:47:45 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:47:45 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125749 The cover shown by Mugglenet for the adult UK version clearly states: "Advanced Potion- Making by Libalius Borage" The author's name is a bit hard to read, but the title is very clear. Your brightness/contrast on your monitor may make it hard to read. ;) I put the picture through some Photoshop conversions, and I am 95% sure that the author's name is Libalius Borage. The e at the end is the only thing really hard to read - it might be an accented i or a funky o, but I am pretty sure it is an e. The thing about the book makes it look like it is a movie prop, but HP Lexicon shows that there wasn't a book called that in the previous books. Given how battered it is, and the fact that Dumbledore is on the other two covers, it MAY be Dumbledore's book that Harry somehow ends up with. It may be Snape's old potion book. It may be Voldemort's old potion book. It may be all of the above. :) I don't see Ron taking potions this year, so it probably isn't his, and since Harry didn't have this book last year, neither should Ginny this year. And I don't think the American version is a Pensieve - I think it's a potion or a scrying bowl or something along those lines. Harry has his wand drawn and they both look determined about something. Why would they need their wands to confront a Pensieve? Is it a portal to someplace? They look to be EQUALS, as well, which is very interesting. The UK kid's version show Dumbledore and Harry in battle surrounded by fire. Is there a dragon involved somewhere? It looks almost as if the fire is coming from Dumbledore's wand. Is Dumbledore protecting Harry from something? They both look like whatever they are looking at is very, er, frightening. Perhaps Harry is wanting to go forward and Dumbledore is holding him back for his own protection. Is Harry trying to save someone and Dumbledore is keeping him from doing so? Dumbledore also has a bit of a mad look to him. My first reaction upon seeing Dumbledore's face was that that is the face of a dead man. Is Dumbledore going to die in this book? Haha, I asked some very unanswerable questions. =D --lawless On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:57:57 -0000, greatelderone wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" > wrote: > > Hannah: The interesting thing about the Potions book is that it > > looks so old and battered. Now, I can't see Harry having a second > > hand book, since he's not exactly strapped for cash, so I wondered > > if this was a bit of a red herring. > > GEO: I'm sure that it would look that way if it went through a few > potions accidents and besides Harry's Fantastic Beasts book I recall > wasn't exactly in the best shape either. > > > We know that this is the book where we find out why DD trusts > Snape, > > and that there is 'something huge' about Lily Potter. My theory > is > > that DD will show Harry the young Snape, and that book will > > feature. > > GEO: Explain to me again why they would feature something from a > flashback scene and make it the cover of the HBP book. > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > From witchypooh67 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 01:38:46 2005 From: witchypooh67 at yahoo.com (witchypooh67) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 01:38:46 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > We know that this is the book where we find out why DD trusts Snape, > and that there is 'something huge' about Lily Potter. Now Kelly: I wish it were confrimed that we would learn why DD trusts Snape and "something big" about Lily, but that wasw a rumor. Here is the update to that story on The Leaky Cauldron. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/005540.html From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 05:53:46 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 05:53:46 -0000 Subject: Liberius and Felix II and Cover on HBP book!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125751 I have got it!! Or I think I have. The potions book is written by Libarius Borage. Now I don't know how Mugglenet got that information because I copy and printed out the page and also blew it up in my photo editor and still could not read it. Maybe some one told them what it said or sent a fax or ?? But lets assume that it is true. I looked up the name in the Microsoft Encarta and the first name is spelled wrong. If you look up Liberius you will find that he was a Pope (actually at that time there was only one church and the bishop in each place was called a Pope, so he was not the Pope as we know the term today.) He was the Bishop of Rome. And he was exiled because he opposed the Arianism heresy. Now this is not the same thing, but the Arians were the pureblood race that Hitler thought was supreme. Back to Liberius. He was Pope/ Bishop in the 4th century. His replacement was a man named . are you ready Felix. That was one of the clues that she gave us!!! Felix II was Pope/Bishop of Rome in 355. Now don't ask me what this all means. I will do some more research. Oh isn't this fun?? Tonk_op From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 06:29:17 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 06:29:17 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: <20050308165632.655.qmail@web54605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125752 Ellyddan wrote: > An interesting dilemma, there are obviously moments > when even in JKR's books that the two worlds > interesect. The Muggle parents of Hermione having a > witch daughter, Harry's uncle and aunt having a wizard > nephew, and many others with similar situations or the > opposite wizarding parents with squib children. In > these instances she cannot help the interesections of > the culture. I do believe though that there are very > good reasons for the two worlds to remain as separate > as they do. First for the protection of the muggles. > Look at the number of wizards that would make the > muggles into a lower caste for themselves. Powerful > wizards like the Malfoys wouldn't hesitate to use > their powers to manipulate, overpower and subvert the > muggle world to their own whims if both worlds were > united. Others like Tom Riddle have already killed > some muggles in revenge for painful childhoods. Who > would control such behavior? Would muggles have > the compassion and understanding to realize that > wizards are just humans with extra powers? Would they > view them as threats or tools to be used? > The second main consideration of course woul > then be protection of wizards. Their privacy would be > gone. News stations would hound them almost as much > as celebrities. And what about wizard > children in mixed schools. How would the other > children treat the minority of wizard children? Would > they not befriend them out of fear? Treat them as > freaks? Or constantly blame them for the problems in > their lives that the child hadn't fixed like dying > relatives, accidents etc? > > I can see the problems of a united world as being > really quite messy. The way the JKR has separated > them of course does lend itself to way the story is > being told, the issues inherent in the separated > worlds as well. On the other hand, if the two worlds > would collide what a mess JKR would have on her hands > to try and fix up. Carol responds: As I see it, the separation of the WW and Muggle worlds is simply a necessary condition for verisimilitude. In order to create a semblance of reality, to help her Muggle readers willingly suspend their disbelief, she has to have credible reasons why none of them has ever (knowingly) encountered a witch or wizard. Unlike Tolkien's Middle Earth, which is removed from our world by thousands or tens of thousands of years into a mythical time before "the lands were changed," JKR's WW exists almost in the here and now (unless you're eleven years old and regard the 1980s and 1990s as "the olden days"). Consequently, she has spells to conceal Hogwarts and the QWC and St. Mungo's from prying Muggle eyes, memory spells to keep Muggles from remembering that they've just seen a dragon (or even a child flying on a toy broom), Muggles who (realistically) think that magic is make-believe and consequently deny that anything they see is supernatural or uncanny (Vernon in SS/PS persuades himself that he didn't see a cat reading a map; Stan Shunpike says, "They don't see nuffink, do they?"). Muggles who can't deny the existence of magic (like Petunia, who has a witch for a sister and Vernon after Petunia takes Harry in) regard it as abnormal and try to hide it from the neightbors. All of these devices (along with the Statute of Secrecy, nicely timed to coincide with a real event, the Salem witch trials, which despite being in America involved Englishmen and -women and would have shocked the whole WW) serve to explain why modern Muggles never (knowingly) encounter magical people, places, and creatures. Past encounters with magical people, places, and creatures, relegated by Muggles to the realm of myth and legend (or fantasy) become history in the WW. Merlin and the other witches and wizards on the chocolate frog cards are presented as historical figures. Granted, this necessary act of separating the WW from the RW has its consequences for the plot and characters. More is required than simply explaining why Muggles in general are unaware of Wizards and why Wizards want it that way. But the separation itself was necessary from the beginning. Even Lord Voldemort has to be weaker than, say, Saruman (I won't even mention Sauron as there's no comparison) or we'd have heard of him. And Lord Voldemort can't win VW2, either, or JKR will be hard put to explain why we Muggles aren't already his slaves. Carol,hoping that this makes sense as an alternative to Nel's overtly Marxist agenda From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 20:12:48 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:12:48 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy(was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125753 > > a_svirn wrote: > > 1. Muggles are not capable of magic while wizards are. > > That makes wizards a breed apart and infinitely superior one > > at that. > > Tammy replies: > I take exception to that... Muggles and Wizards are basically > "made" differently - it doesn't make one superior to the other. > Men are made differently from women - which makes them able to > pee standing up. And while I (at times) wish I had that ability, > it doesn't mean they're superior 'cause they've got it. a_svirn: Well, it's certainly a rather eloquent example, but misleading I'm afraid. Cats are also made differently from mice: they could play with them and eat them when they feel like it, while mice can only flee and hide. Does it make cats superior? I'd say yes. However for sake of political correctness we can agree that they are just "different". Tammy: > As for the separation of the two, it's necessary. Muggles would > constantly be looking for magical solutions to their problems, if > they actually managed to accept it. In all likelihood, it would > return to the days of witch trials, because we don't like something > we can't understand. Magic is the core of "things you can't > understand." a_svirn: Necessary for whom? From what you say certainly not for Muggles. And it's wizards' point of view that counts, does it not? a_svirn From swirskyr at rogers.com Wed Mar 9 05:07:24 2005 From: swirskyr at rogers.com (Rachel) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 05:07:24 -0000 Subject: Covers! *HBP spoilers* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125754 I think that the older gent in the Boomsbury cover looks frightened. If it is DD, I am worried about what is to come. Anything that would frighten him would scare the heck out of me! Rachel From collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 21:39:26 2005 From: collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com (collegegirl200521) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:39:26 -0000 Subject: They're just teenagers!! / Hermione 'know-it-all' Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125755 > > Julie wrote: > > (BTW, I don't subscribe to the theory that Snape is mean to > > Hermione because she's Muggleborn, not when it's so easy for > > him to resent her because she's a know-it-all, a Gryffindor, > > and a close friend of that cursed Harry Potter!) > > Valky: > What then of the very first Potions class? When he simply refused > to even let her speak. It couldn't be because she was a know it > all, Hermy did act as a big know it all though. Also, the fact that later Harry acknowlegdes her hand being raised wasn't the best thing....(a big no-no from Snape)!! Jina From deborahm at moonstar.com Wed Mar 9 05:25:13 2005 From: deborahm at moonstar.com (poodat4) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 05:25:13 -0000 Subject: Neville's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "beth6581" wrote: > "this means Neville never went to Ollivander's to pick out his own > wand. That would mean that Neville wasn't entirely compatible with > his wand, which would account for his poor grades and performances > during classes. I am very interested to see his progress during his > sixth year with a wand that is truly his own." This is a point I have wondered about as well. I think that once Neville has gone to Ollivander's for his new wand, that it would be interesting to compare both the wood and the core of his new wand with that of his father's wand. That might tell us a whole lot about why the old wand performed so poorly in Neville's hands. By the way, I'm new here too. This is my first post. "poodat4" From kcartweel at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 02:32:38 2005 From: kcartweel at yahoo.com (kcartweel) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 02:32:38 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > > > Spoiler space > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > ** > > > **** > > Hannah: The interesting thing about the Potions book is that it > looks so old and battered. Maybe it isn't that Harry (or Snape) can not afford the book but that it is very rare. Oh, and maybe that isn't a pensieve but a cauldron, like the kind that they use in potions. I really like the green theory though. ~IG From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Wed Mar 9 07:09:21 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 07:09:21 -0000 Subject: That nice Mr Borage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125758 Borage is a garden plant - big hairy leaves and nice little blue flowers. Its leaves taste of cucumber and you can eat the flowers too or use them as edible decoration. Could have magical properties concealed from us Muggles, too ... Libarius? Liberius? Seen both; haven't seen the cover clearly enough to choose. Libarius reminds me of a libation, a liquid offering to the god or spirit uppermost in the celebrant's mind at the time - the Romans used to roll their goblets so just a drop of wine escaped, and then it was on with the party. Like saying a pagan Grace, I suppose. So that would be nice and appropriate for a Potions expert. (Leopards used to be Libbards, but I can't fit that in for the life of me.) Liberius the Free? Or maybe it's actually Librarius, he whose learning comes from books! "Deborah" From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 08:00:47 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 08:00:47 -0000 Subject: Liberius and Felix II and Cover on HBP book!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125759 More information: from the Encarta Encyclopedia: Borage originated in the Middle East and was associated with bravery. The ancient Celtic warriors drank borage-flavored wine to give them courage. Herbalists believed that borage imparted a sense of well-being, and the Roman scholar Pliny considered it to be an antidepressant. The five-pointed brilliant blue flowers were once favorite subjects in needlework. It is said to have medicinal qualities. Japanese beetles may attack new growth. Borage attracts bees, so plant where pollination is needed. It also is said to strengthen insect and disease resistance in nearby plants. This plant can also be called "forget me not" ---- Add this to what I wrote about Liberius. What do you all think? Tonks_op From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 08:18:11 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 08:18:11 -0000 Subject: House identification after Hogwarts (or, Slytherins need not apply) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pookasmorning" wrote: > > > .... What happens to House identification post-Hogwarts? > > The children at Hogwarts spend seven ...years having their > respective house loyalties .... And these aren't simply baseless > stereotypes; ... we ... assume ... at least some basis for ... their > House. It doesn't seem logical that students would simply forget > that Hufflepuffs = Duffers upon receiving their diplomas. ... > > So how would they affect things like, say, employment opportunities? > If a Hufflepuff were being interviewed for a job requiring swift > mental reflexes, would he or she automatically lose out to a > Ravenclaw? Would a Gryffindor hire a Slytherin for a job requiring > teamwork? More importantly, would a Gryffindor vote for a Slytherin > (if there is voting)? Would they let their daughter bring one home > for dinner? > > In short, what are the long-term societal effects of Sorting? > > - Pooka bboyminn: Let's not forget that this very same thing occurs in the real world. If a company executive went to Harvard then he probably will favor someone from Harvard over Yale (big rivals). Also, he may favor someone who belonged to the same fraternity, or same social club, or any same church/religion, or anyone of many other things. But in the end, it is whether the person can do the job that is the determining factor, being from Harvard rather than Yale, might be a factor, and might give a job candidate an edge, but more important factors are going to be the key to deciding. So, yes, House loyalties, rather than prejudices, carry over into life after Hogwarts, but also, as you grow up, you realize that the things that were of such terrible importance, like who beat who in Quidditch, when you were young, don't really carry that much weight for adults. In fact, by the time most kids have reached college, they are able to look back on their high school priorities and laugh at how lame they were. Further, all Houses have their advantages, and those advantages have a broad cross section of application. A Hufflepuff, by nature of their hard work and perseverance, could make just as good a business person as a Slytherin. We see in Cedric Diggory that Hufflepufffs are not just mindless drones and workers. Cedric is smart, intelligent, hard working, loyal, honest, noble, and has many other positive traits. He certainly could have done well in any aspect of life he chose to persue, and equally, I think anyone from any other house who knew Cedric would have no problem hiring him, or for that matter, working for him. So, on one hand, to some extent, House loyalties, and even prejudices, do come into play just as they do in the real world, but ultimately, you can't chose a person by their House if it will be to the detriment of your business. First and foremost, you hire or associate with the person that has the highest capability to get the job done. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 08:41:44 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 08:41:44 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! *Cover SPOILERs* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125761 Inkling: "I do think the potions text being on the cover is quite significant. On the Today show this morning (video also on Mugglenet)Al Roker was really wailing on Arthur A. Levine, wanting to know if Snape is the HBP -- pretty funny, you could hear the cameramen laughing! . To my mind, this text being on the cover raises the likelihood of Snape being the one and that *is* way cool!" It's possible, but would JKR give it up that easily? One thing we can imagine is that Harry did very well on his Potions OWL and is now in NEWT level Potions, which will produce a certain amount of tension, to put it elegantly. Jim Ferer From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 9 08:44:26 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 08:44:26 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125762 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Well, I have thought of one possibility, GEO. The U.S. cover shows > Harry & DD looking at what appears to be a pensieve, and there is a > lot of eery green light emanating from it and swirling around them. > Green light makes me think immediately of one thing: an AK. Since > a pensieve replays memories, I'd think it might be possible that the > cover depiction *is* of a flashback of sorts, maybe even of the > events of GH if DD has a reason to possess a memory of it. Harry's > gaining THAT information would certainly be significant enough to > warrant a cover reference. That was my initial thinking as well, but I am not sure. DD was not at GH so how could he possibly remember what was there (maybe Snape's memory)? Harry was a baby, and spared the gruesome details or he would have seen these winged horses (sorry - forgot the name for them - the ones who one can only see if they witnessed death) before OoP, so it can't be his memory either, or can it? On mugglenet were three covers - the US one showing Harry and DD looking into a pensieve like stone caulderon, the British kids cover shows the same pair in the midst of a fire storm. The British adult cover shows a potions book. Putting all these together, I am guessing that the two covers showing Harry and DD probably represent different time snapshots in the same sequence of events. The potion book may be responsible to concocting that mysterious potion or instruct how to create a pensieve? I guess we'll find out in four more months... Salit From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 09:08:40 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:08:40 -0000 Subject: All the World's Problems; Was, Can wizards cure cancer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125763 Lupinlore: " To put it even more strictly, let us suppose wizards are capable of curing cancer (we know they don't suffer from it, at any rate). I grant you there is nothing in the books that says this, but let's suppose for an example. By holding themselves apart and denying muggles the cures they can provide, are they not guilty of a grave sin of omission, in effect murder by implied consent?" "Carol responds: As Nora has frequently pointed out, argument from absence isn't a very solid argument. IOW, just because the narrator hasn't mentioned any wizards dying from cancer doesn't mean that "we *know* they don't suffer from it." Absolutely, it doesn't even suggest anything at all strongly. Carol: "Note that St. Mungo's is not a hospital of the type we're familiar with. It doesn't treat cancer or heart disease or perform surgery (stitches are an alien treatment used by Muggle doctors, who are regarded with suspicion by both Ron and Mrs. Weasley). " We don't know this, either, for the same reason. We just haven't seen it. Some of what Madame Pomfrey does could be considered [magical] surgery. Bloodless and painless to be sure, but something akin to surgery. Wizard Healers might treat both cancer and heart disease with varying degrees of success. Without meaning to, Lupinlore answered the question why wizards don't dare reveal themselves. If the wizard world has some kind of moral obligation to fix things like cancer, then wizards have a lot to answer for if they ever come out. Even if wizards can't cure cancer, a lot of people won't believe it, and will think wizards are guilty of grave sins of omission, in effect murder, for everything from cancer to heart disease to not preventing 9/11 or the tsunami, and nobody will be listening to explanations. It won't be long before people believe that wizards are running things behind the scenes to suit themselves. It'll be a short step for some people from believing that the wizards could have prevented the tsunami to believing wizards **caused** the tsunami for some purpose of their own. We live in a conspiracy theory world. Envy, resentment, and persecution are almost sure to follow if the wizard world reveals itself. Jim Ferer From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Mar 9 10:55:05 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:55:05 -0000 Subject: HBP covers - the Potions book.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125764 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: Hannah: > The interesting thing about the Potions book is that it > looks so old and battered. Now, I can't see Harry having a second > hand book, since he's not exactly strapped for cash, so I wondered > if this was a bit of a red herring. Perhaps it isn't *Harry's* > book at all, but a young Snape's. Since the USA ed. shows DD and > Harry looking into a pensieve, it's safe to say there will be more > glimpses into the mysterious past. I'm guessing this is where > we'll see Sirius again. Geoff: Interesting that this immediately sent my mind off on another track and I went running to canon..... 'They dropped their voices as they entered the muffled stillness of the library. Madam Pince, the librarian, was a thin, irritable woman who looked like an underfed vulture. "Moste Potente Potions?" she repeated suspiciously, trying to take the note from Hermione; but Hermione wouldn't let go. "I was wondering if I could keep it," she said breathlessly. "Oh, come on," said Ron, wrenching it from her grasp and thrusting it at Madam Pince. "We'll get you another autograph. Lockhart'll sign anything if it stands still long enough." Madam Pince held the note up to the light as though determined to detect a forgery but it passed the test. She stalked away between the lofty shelves and returned several minutes later carrying a /large and mouldy book/ (my emphasis). Hermione put it carefully into her bag and they left, trying not to walk too quickly or look too guilty.' (COS "The Rogue Bludger" pp.123-24 UK edition) Could our mysterious new book be another ancient volume lurking in the Restricted Section waiting to be discovered? A little more speculation to keep us going for the next 129 days? From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Wed Mar 9 11:59:34 2005 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 9 Mar 2005 11:59:34 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! Message-ID: <20050309115934.22432.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125765 >>SSSusan: >>Well, I have thought of one possibility, GEO. The U.S. cover shows >>Harry & DD looking at what appears to be a pensieve, and there is a >>lot of eery green light emanating from it and swirling around them. >>Green light makes me think immediately of one thing: an AK. Since >>a pensieve replays memories, I'd think it might be possible that the >>cover depiction *is* of a flashback of sorts, maybe even of the >>events of GH if DD has a reason to possess a memory of it. Harry's >>gaining THAT information would certainly be significant enough to >>warrant a cover reference. >> Amey: It is even possible that the information (/memories) in the Pensieve comes from Harry's head rather than DD's. That will certainly open up new possibilities... By the way, it feels very good to be back to the group after a long time. Hope I haven't missed any important discussions. Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 9 12:06:48 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 12:06:48 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125766 Jen wrote: > But back to the Pensieve scene. I've never found a satisfactory > answer for what important information we find out about Lily in Book > 5. JKR said: "We will find out the significant information about > Harry's mother in two parts: books 5 and 7. Both are "very important > in what Harry ends up having to do." [Read the exact quote from WBUR > interview, 1999, Quick Quill Quotes]. > > So we already knew Lily had red hair and green eyes from the Mirror of Erised. We guessed she was a powerful witch from what happened at Godric's Hollow. She's always been portrayed as a good person and an almost saint-like mother. Check, check, check. All these traits are present in the Pensieve scene. What's new? The only thing left is standing up for Snape, I guess. Hannah now: This puzzles me as well. I was waiting right up till the last page for the significant information, and it never seemed to come. I did read in a not 100% reliable source reported on Mugglenet that there is 'something huge about Lily Potter' in HBP, so maybe JKR moved the revelation intended for book 5 into book 6? > Beth wrote: > > I always try to keep in mind, however, that JKR insists that we > > should all be trying to figure out why LV didn't die. One thought that keeps popping into my head is that since Lily's love saved Harry, and that love was in Harry's blood protecting him, perhaps LV also had some of the Evans/Potter blood in him thus protecting him from the rebound. Hannah now: I like this theory. Lily could be related to LV through his Muggle father's side. That may also explain his slight reluctance to kill her (telling her to stand aside rather than just zapping her outright). Such a revelation would explain a lot of mysteries, and we know something significant is coming up about her. And maybe that also explains the glint in DD's eyes? In destroying Lily's direct blood protection on Harry so that LV can touch him, he has also destroyed his own indirect blood protection that prevented him dying in the first place? > Beth wrote: > > Anyway, just some thought, but enough of my late night ramblings -- have I written too much for a newcomer? :) Hannah: They're very good thoughts, write as much as you want! Welcome to HPfGU! Hannah From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 12:29:19 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:29:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050309122919.69010.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125767 Lindsay wrote: The UK kid's version show Dumbledore and Harry in battle surrounded by fire. Is there a dragon involved somewhere? It looks almost as if the fire is coming from Dumbledore's wand. --lawless I could not help but think "phoenix fire" when I saw the picture. Could it not be fawlks protecting the two of them? We have evidence that shows DD can produce something that appears to be a phoenix (GOF - scene with Crouch at the edge of the forest). Could this be something similar? moonmyyst --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 12:32:47 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 12:32:47 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy(was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125768 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > > a_svirn wrote: > > > 1. Muggles are not capable of magic while wizards are. > > > That makes wizards a breed apart and infinitely superior one > > > at that. > > > > Tammy replies: > > I take exception to that... Muggles and Wizards are basically > > "made" differently - it doesn't make one superior to the other. > > Men are made differently from women - which makes them able to > > pee standing up. And while I (at times) wish I had that ability, > > it doesn't mean they're superior 'cause they've got it. > > a_svirn: > > Well, it's certainly a rather eloquent example, but misleading I'm > afraid. Cats are also made differently from mice: they could play > with them and eat them when they feel like it, while mice can only > flee and hide. Does it make cats superior? I'd say yes. However for > sake of political correctness we can agree that they are > just "different". Tammy: Your example is no less misleading than mine. In my example, we're talking about two members of the same species. Your example is two different species. Are you trying to say that Wizards and Muggles are two different species then? If so, how do you get muggleborns? And where do squibs come from then? > > Tammy: > > As for the separation of the two, it's necessary. Muggles would > > constantly be looking for magical solutions to their problems, if > > they actually managed to accept it. In all likelihood, it would > > return to the days of witch trials, because we don't like something > > we can't understand. Magic is the core of "things you can't > > understand." > > > a_svirn: > > Necessary for whom? From what you say certainly not for Muggles. And > it's wizards' point of view that counts, does it not? > > a_svirn Tammy: It's necessary for both muggles and wizards. Muggles are happier not knowing about magic. Actually, we're happier not knowing about a lot of things. Look back into history - we once knew the world was flat. When people tried to say differently they were killed. We once knew we were the center of the universe. Anyone who said anything else was killed. Muggles through the ages have proven that they just can't handle their beliefs being challenged and changed. Would muggles eventually come to understand it? Sure, if given enough time. But in the meantime how many witches and wizards would have to die? And it's necessary for wizards and witches as well. As Hagrid says, muggles would constantly want a magical solution to their problems. And I'm not talking about just the big ones like medical problems or electricity. I think the wizarding would could easily, and happily, provide some of those bigger things to the muggles if not for the Secrecy Statute. It's the smaller things, like cleaning and cooking. Muggles could conceivably end up enslaving wizards. And before you say that would never happen - how did house elves end up as slaves? House elves seems to have powers that are different enough and in some ways more powerful than wizards and witches, yet they are still working as slaves. Dobby can apparate in Hogwarts where no witch or wizard can. Why didn't the house-elves just apparate away where no witch or wizard could find them? -Tammy From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 13:52:28 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:52:28 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125769 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > Hannah now: I like this theory. Lily could be related to LV > through his Muggle father's side. That may also explain his slight > reluctance to kill her (telling her to stand aside rather than just > zapping her outright). GEO: I disagree, this is the same person who killed his own father and muggle grandparents with little or no remorse. The reason that he was less than willing to kill her probably stems from the same reason that the Potters and Longbottoms survived three encounters with the Dark Lord as for the actual reason: no one has managed to formulate a reason that actually makes sense and the old Voldemort is related to Lily theory has been retread several times. Such a revelation would explain a lot of > mysteries, and we know something significant is coming up about > her. And maybe that also explains the glint in DD's eyes? In > destroying Lily's direct blood protection on Harry so that LV can > touch him, he has also destroyed his own indirect blood protection > that prevented him dying in the first place? GEO: Voldemort didn't destroy the blood protection that was placed on Harry by Lily's sacrifice, the ritual that he took part in GoF allowed him to share in that protection, which then nixes your theory that Voldy is part Evans. As for his survival, I think Voldemort himself has some sort of blood protection akin to that of Harry's placed on him by his own dying mother. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 14:09:49 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 14:09:49 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy(was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy" wrote: > Tammy: Muggles through the ages have proven that they just can't > handle their beliefs being challenged and changed. Would muggles > eventually come to understand it? GEO: Your analogy is evidently false. The example you cited was during a time when the church dominated. However I think in modern times we would be much more tolerant towards them. Yes there would be crackpots and fundamentalists that would hate the wizards, but then there would be others that would embrace them with equal fervence. Sure, if given enough time. But in > the meantime how many witches and wizards would have to die? GEO: And do you really think the wizards will be able to sustain their isolated world as human technology rapidly increases? If they don't reveal themselves on their own terms, they might just be found out accidentally and then the persecutions would be much worse. > And it's necessary for wizards and witches as well. As Hagrid says, > muggles would constantly want a magical solution to their problems. GEO: Thats Hagrid's reasoning and frankly I disagree with it. People aren't like idiotic sheeped as the wizards from the pureblood fanatics and the muggle lovers actually believe. We would be no more dependent on them as we would be on scientists. > And I'm not talking about just the big ones like medical problems or > electricity. I think the wizarding would could easily, and happily, > provide some of those bigger things to the muggles if not for the > Secrecy Statute. It's the smaller things, like cleaning and cooking. GEO: Which most people still do for themselves and doesn't seem to be any easier with magic than it is with ordinary means. > Muggles could conceivably end up enslaving wizards. And before you say > that would never happen - how did house elves end up as slaves? GEO: Except slavery has been condemned by the majority of humanity and has been made illegal in almost every corner of the world though some in worst places still practice. However I do agree that we would exploit and try to dominate the wizards and that they would do the same. From pegruppel at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 14:20:43 2005 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 14:20:43 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125771 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "beth6581" wrote: > > I may have missed this, either in the book or in discussion here, but > I found the physical description of Lily in Snape's Worst Memory (in > OOTP) a little odd -- even though it was a very brief description of > her, the fact that JKR gave her "thick, dark red hair that fell to > her shoulders" leaves me with more of a vision of Ginny Weasely than > anyone else. Especially odd because we know that Aunt Petunia is a > blonde. > Peg: Just to get my oar in: Nothing odd at all about a blond and a redhead in the same family. I've got hair as red as the actor who plays Ron in the Medium-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named. My younger sister has hair a couple of shades lighter, and my "little" brother (size of a fire truck) is platinum blonde (think Draco). Our parents are both redheads. Ah, the wonder of genetics . . . I'm disinclined to believe that Lilly, the Weasleys, and Dumbledore are all related. It *is* possible. But, I've been asked so often if I'm related to people I've never heard of, that I think it's just another, er, red herring. I suspect that the really important part of Lilly's appearance is her eye color, which Harry has so clearly inherited. Other posters have suggested that Harry has inherited much more than Lilly's eye color from her, and others that we need to know his eye color in order to know that it's Harry we're seeing, and not someone else. At this point in the narrative, I'd have to toss a coin. Peg From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 14:47:28 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 14:47:28 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125773 SSSusan: "Well, I have thought of one possibility, GEO. The U.S. cover shows Harry & DD looking at what appears to be a Pensieve, and there is a lot of eery green light emanating from it and swirling around them. Green light makes me think immediately of one thing: an AK. Since a pensieve replays memories, I'd think it might be possible that the cover depiction *is* of a flashback of sorts, maybe even of the events of GH if DD has a reason to possess a memory of it. Harry's gaining THAT information would certainly be significant enough to warrant a cover reference." It might be an AK, but I get something positive out of the American and the British children's covers: Dumbledore and Harry are much closer in this book than the last. I think we'll see Dumbledore actively mentoring Harry much more, and they will share danger together for arguably the first time in this book. (I decided not to count the MoM battle in OoP.) I believe we're preparing for the passing of the torch. An implication of this greater closeness, if it happens, is that Harry has gotten over or is getting over his anger at Dumbledore. I've believed that Harry's mental state will be much better now and what I saw made me feel good about that. As to the Potions book, I wonder if Harry did much better on his Potions OWL than anyone thought? Wow, if that's true, that sure will put Snape in a bind! Let's see, the kid he hates got a great score on his OWL while Snape was giving him the worst grades he could contrive; he's got to put up with him in his NEWT classes; Snape's been further shown up because kids do much better once he's unable to terrorize them. (It'll be even worse if Neville did well.) And Harry won't view it as an unmixed blessing, either. Whether this means that Snape is the Half-Blood Prince, I don't know. I'm inclined to believe the HBP is someone new. Jim Ferer From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 9 14:53:13 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:53:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050309145313.74796.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125774 Beth: One thought that keeps popping into my head is that since Lily's love saved Harry, and that love was in Harry's blood protecting him,perhaps LV also had some of the Evans/Potter blood in him thus protecting him from the rebound. Hannah now: I like this theory. Lily could be related to LV through his Muggle father's side. theotokos (me): I also like this theory on first read, but I was under the impression that JKR ruled out the possibility of LV being related to Harry. At her website in the "Rumors" paper, in response to the question posted 18/02/04 "Voldemort is Harry's real father/grandfather/close relative of some description" she states: No, no, no, no, no. [snip] Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin. If LV is a descendant and Harry cannot be doesn't that imply Harry and LV are not related? And if they are not related then LV and Lily cannot be related. I thought she had said more clearly somewhere but cannot find where. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 9 15:15:18 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:15:18 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125775 >>Hannah originally: My theory is that DD will show Harry the young Snape, and that book will feature. > GEO replied: Explain to me again why they would feature something from a > flashback scene and make it the cover of the HBP book. Hannah now: Explain to me why they *wouldn't* feature something from a flashback scene and make it the cover of the HBP book. SSSusan has already given one possible scenario where a flashback scene could be very important to the plot. Nearly all of the mysteries in HP right now revolve around the past, and the events of the first war. I would say that past revelations, which will almost certainly come via a pensieve, are going to be of great significance to the plot in books 6 and 7. So why not feature that book if it's relevant? Hannah From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 15:40:16 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:40:16 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125776 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > Hannah now: Explain to me why they *wouldn't* feature something > from a flashback scene and make it the cover of the HBP book. GEO: Judging by the previous flashback scenes possibly because of the total lack of relevance. A advanced potions making text that appears to be for the students appearing briefly in a flashback and is probably not going to drive the plot further is not going to appear on the cover of the books. > I would say that past revelations, which will almost > certainly come via a pensieve, are going to be of great significance > to the plot in books 6 and 7. So why not feature that book if it's > relevant? GEO: I don't see how a potions making text is relevant in a flashback. The main mystery of the books is what exactly happened at Godric's Hollow on that Halloween Night. From meltowne at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 15:50:52 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:50:52 -0000 Subject: Liberius and Felix II and Cover on HBP book!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > I have got it!! Or I think I have. > > The potions book is written by Libarius Borage. Now I don't know > how Mugglenet got that information because I copy and printed out > the page and also blew it up in my photo editor and still could not > read it. Maybe some one told them what it said or sent a fax or ?? > But lets assume that it is true. It looks more like Libatius to me, not Liberius. Libatius reminds me of Libatious or libations - relating to pouring, which would make sense with potions. From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 15:57:07 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:57:07 -0000 Subject: HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125778 Since the release of the book covers...anyone out there wondering or making new speculations about who the HBP is??? I'm begining to wonder if it is Dumbledore..... I believe someone (perhaps Malfoy) made the comment that he was the champion of "mudbloods"... Just thought I'd share before entering day two with DD possibilities running through my mind before I pick up and start reading the entire series yet again.. Doddie From meltowne at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 16:06:31 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:06:31 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125779 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > SSSusan: > Well, I have thought of one possibility, GEO. The U.S. cover shows > Harry & DD looking at what appears to be a pensieve, and there is a > lot of eery green light emanating from it and swirling around them. > Green light makes me think immediately of one thing: an AK. Since > a pensieve replays memories, I'd think it might be possible that the > cover depiction *is* of a flashback of sorts, maybe even of the > events of GH if DD has a reason to possess a memory of it. Harry's > gaining THAT information would certainly be significant enough to > warrant a cover reference. Or maybe DD is showing Harry how to use the penseive, and they are looking at HARRY's memories of Godric's Hollow. Maybe DD thinks Harry is old enough now to revisit that evening, and maybe it will provide DD with information he needs - like who else was there. We were introduced to the idea of "mind reading" in previous books, and we know that DD (and Snape too) is able to select memories to place in the penseive. Harry doesn't know how to do that yet, but he is the only one on "our side" that we know of with retrievable memories of Godric's Hollow. From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Wed Mar 9 16:40:02 2005 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:40:02 -0000 Subject: Liberius and Felix II and Cover on HBP book!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125780 --- In HPforGrownups, "meltowne" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups, "Tonks" wrote: > > > > I have got it!! Or I think I have. > > > > The potions book is written by Libarius Borage. [snip] > It looks more like Libatius to me, not Liberius. > > Libatius reminds me of Libatious or libations - > relating to pouring, which would make sense with > potions. The website thesaurus.com has as its fourth entry for "libation": http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?r=2&q=libation * Main Entry: potion * Part of Speech: noun * Definition: concoction * Synonyms: aromatic, brew, cordial, cup, dose, draft, dram, draught, drink, elixir, libation, liquid, liquor, medicine, mixture, nip, philter, remedy, restorative, spirits, stimulant, tonic * Source: Roget's New Millennium? Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1) Copyright ? 2005 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. Best regards Christian Stub? Who thinks it might be a whole year since the last time he said anything here. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 9 16:37:39 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:37:39 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125781 > > Hannah originally: Explain to me why they *wouldn't* feature something > > from a flashback scene and make it the cover of the HBP book. > > GEO: Judging by the previous flashback scenes possibly because of > the total lack of relevance. A advanced potions making text that > appears to be for the students appearing briefly in a flashback and > is probably not going to drive the plot further is not going to > appear on the cover of the books. Hannah: Lack of relevance? Well, the front cover of UK PS shows the Hogwarts express - not the most vital plot element in that book, and that of UK CoS shows the flying car - again, not terribly relevant to the ultimate plot, though great fun. I don't think the other pensieve scenes have been irrelevant either. In GoF, it told the backstory of Crouch and his son, which was very very relevant. It revealed the fate of the Longbottoms. It told us Karkaroff was a DE, and that Snape was a spy vouched for by DD. It introduced the Lestranges. It set the scene for what things were like during the first war. While in OotP, it revealed the James and his friends weren't saints, that maybe there is some truth in Snape's comments. It led to the termination of Occlumency lessons. It showed that Lily Potter wasn't that keen on James at one point in their school time, and that she stood up for Snape. And even if these scenes could be considered of minor importance to the ultimate plot, that doesn't mean pensieve scenes in future books won't be. Hannah originally: > > I would say that past revelations, which will almost > > certainly come via a pensieve, are going to be of great > significance > > to the plot in books 6 and 7. So why not feature that book if > it's > > relevant? > > GEO replied: I don't see how a potions making text is relevant in a > flashback. The main mystery of the books is what exactly happened at > Godric's Hollow on that Halloween Night. Hannah now: Well, it depends on what exactly *did* happen that night. What about immortality potions? What about the possibility of Snape being present at GH when it happened? And while that could be considered the *main* mystery, it's not the only one. Why Dumbledore trusts Snape, and whose side Snape really is on being two of them. And the half-blood prince of the books' title, he's got to be pretty important as well. Perhaps he's linked to the book in some way (perhaps, as has been suggested before, he is Snape). There are a lot of possibilities. One possibility is that there's no connection between the book and the flashback. But it's equally possible, IMO, that there is. Hannah From kkersey at swbell.net Wed Mar 9 16:43:19 2005 From: kkersey at swbell.net (kkersey_austin) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:43:19 -0000 Subject: Libalius vs. Libatius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125782 I'm pretty sure that's a 't' and not an 'l', and here's why: Look at the ascender on the letter 'b' - it's actually a bit higher than the capitals. The vertical element of the letter in question clearly does not go anywhere near that high, and it would be a stangely designed font that has such a discrepancy. A small 't', on the other hand, usually is much shorter than than 'b', 'h', 'l', etc. So, even though I can't see the crossmark, I'm sure that's a 't'. Something that bothers me about the picture of the book - although the book itself looks tattered and old, perhaps *very* old, the lettering and graphics look modern, in fact, they look computer generated (as opposed to hand lettering or mechanical type). Worse, it looks to me like the title etc. were simply photoshopped rather than actually applied to a real book. So all of you out there waiting for that prop to auctioned off for charity, don't hold your breath... Karen, who could be wrong about the photoshopping, but is pretty darn sure about the 't' From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 17:05:53 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 17:05:53 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125783 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > Hannah: Lack of relevance? Well, the front cover of UK PS shows > the Hogwarts express - not the most vital plot element in that book, > and that of UK CoS shows the flying car - again, not terribly > relevant to the ultimate plot, though great fun. GEO: But I don't believe those initial books had adult editions so those examples aren't really comparable in my opinion. > I don't think the other pensieve scenes have been irrelevant > either. In GoF, it told the backstory of Crouch and his son, which > was very very relevant. It revealed the fate of the Longbottoms. > It told us Karkaroff was a DE, and that Snape was a spy vouched for > by DD. It introduced the Lestranges. It set the scene for what > things were like during the first war. GEO: But do you think the courtroom scene in GoF or the flashback to the Hogwarts of Snape's time would have made a good cover for Goblet of Fire or Order of the Phoenix? I for one think they wouldn't have and would have been very misleading if the publishers actually did. They may be relevant and important to the plot, but certainly not coverworthy. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 9 17:31:10 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 17:31:10 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125784 > > Hannah orginally: Lack of relevance? Well, the front cover of UK PS shows the Hogwarts express - not the most vital plot element in that book, and that of UK CoS shows the flying car - again, not terribly relevant to the ultimate plot, though great fun. > > GEO replied: But I don't believe those initial books had adult editions so > those examples aren't really comparable in my opinion. Hannah now: You're partly right. I just checked Amazon, and those books did have adult editions but the covers are different to how I thought (though I could have sworn that there was an adult edition of CoS at some point with a stylised car on the front). Anyway, the cover pictures on Amazon are of a red stone for PS, and a door with snakes on (not the film version) for CoS, so your point about the comparability is valid. Hannah originally: > > I don't think the other pensieve scenes have been irrelevant > > either. > GEO replied: But do you think the courtroom scene in GoF or the flashback to the Hogwarts of Snape's time would have made a good cover for Goblet of Fire or Order of the Phoenix? I for one think they wouldn't have and would have been very misleading if the publishers actually did. They may be relevant and important to the plot, but certainly not coverworthy. Hannah: Oh yes, I'd agree with that. But we don't know what the nature of the flashback scenes in HBP will be, and how important to the plot, and how much of a part the book may or may not play in those scenes, if any. So it could be that the book is part of an important flashback sequence. At the end of the day, I don't suppose we'll know until HBP comes out :-) Hannah From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 17:51:37 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 17:51:37 -0000 Subject: Is that really Dumbledore on the cover of HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125785 It could be Dumbledore, but it could also be the new character described in the only known quote from the new book: "He looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp." Eggplant From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 18:08:41 2005 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:08:41 -0000 Subject: That nice Mr Borage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125786 "Deborah" wrote: > Borage is a garden plant - big hairy leaves and nice little blue > flowers. Its leaves taste of cucumber and you can eat the flowers > too or use them as edible decoration. Could have magical properties > concealed from us Muggles, too ... Eustace_Scrubb: It's also been used as rabbit fodder, but contains an alkaloid called amabiline, which is toxic to the liver. So both rabbits and humans have been warned not to consume too much of it in recent years On the plus side, it may be an anti-inflammatory as well. So it's sort of an ambiguous plant, really. Pretty and with some useful properties, but potentially dangerous in the wrong hands. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 18:17:37 2005 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:17:37 -0000 Subject: Is that really Dumbledore on the cover of HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant9998" wrote: > > It could be Dumbledore, but it could also be the new character > described in the only known quote from the new book: > > "He looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in > his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish > eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, > loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp." Brenda: I also wondered whether this could be someone other than Dumbledore, but he is wearing a semi-moon spectacles, a description very specific to Dumbledore. But then again, who is to say the new character isn't wearing one either?? ~ Brenda From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 18:50:19 2005 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:50:19 -0000 Subject: Is that really Dumbledore on the cover of HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125788 wrote: > > > > It could be Dumbledore, but it could also be the new character > > described in the only known quote from the new book: > > > > "He looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in > > his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish > > eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, > > loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp." > > > Brenda: > > I also wondered whether this could be someone other than Dumbledore, > but he is wearing a semi-moon spectacles, a description very specific > to Dumbledore. > > But then again, who is to say the new character isn't wearing one > either?? > > ~ Brenda That'd be Dumbledore. He's been drawn enough in the chapter pics. It's definitely him. Right? LOL Did anyone else that that was NOT a pensieve on the cover? I'm making myself see it that way now (conformist!), but it didn't look that way to me originally. Marci From tonisan9 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 16:25:51 2005 From: tonisan9 at hotmail.com (tonihollifield) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:25:51 -0000 Subject: Question about House Elves (was: Wizard supremacy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125789 Tammy Wrote: --Snipped-- > ...how did house elves end up as slaves? House > elves seems to have powers that are different enough and in some ways > more powerful than wizards and witches, yet they are still working as > slaves. --Snipped-- I've been following the ongoing discussing regarding house elves for the past week or so, and a question occurred to me when I read the above. I remember reading in FB (which I'm sorry, I don't have with me, so I can't quote), that there was a least one magical creature that was created by wizards. Isn't it possible that the house elf is another one of these creatures? In that case, the wizarding world would not have enslaved another "race" of being, but would have created a creature to serve its needs. While I wouldn't defend the practice of creating another living creature (beast/being, whatever) to serve wizard-kind, I can see a powerful, wealthy, pure-blood family creating a creature such as a house-elf so they wouldn't have to take care of the day-to-day operations of a large estate, especially if it occurred a thousand years ago, say at the time of the founding of Hogwarts. The house-elves could have been given the powers they have (those that we've seen Dobby demonstrate, and Winky and Crouch, Jr. speak of) in order to make them more efficient workers, and they would have been bound to the house (or the family, if that's how it works) to keep the operation of the estate or manor running smoothly. Once created, the house elves could have reproduced from there. Obviously, there's no canon to support this, but I don't remember any canon contradicting it either. Any thoughts? Toni From amy79a at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 15:58:54 2005 From: amy79a at gmail.com (Amy) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:58:54 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All the possible OWLS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95183c4305030707582e4f1b36@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125790 > Hannah Wrote: I should add that there is much debate over exactly how > anyone gets 12 OWLs when even Hermione isn't taking all of the above > subjects, and nearly had a nervous breakdown when she tried. There > are various suggestions, including separate OWLs for practical and > theory papers, or double OWLs for higher grades (both of which > explanations I personally disagree with). > I have often asked myself this same question. I mean if anyone is going to get 12 OWLs it will be Hermione. I like your idea that maybe there are different types of OWLs within each subject. I truly believe that this would make the most since and would simulate our own educational testing. However, another theory I have is that you don't have to take a class to take the OWL on it. Meaning that Hermione can still take the Divination OWL even though she dropped the class. Only the truly dedicated witch\wizard would even attempt to go for 12 OWLs and those that do are probably talented enough to get it. Some of the OWLs such as History of Magic, Mugglestudies, and even Divination could technically be achieved by reading books instead of taking the class. Amy From fmaneely at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 9 13:11:01 2005 From: fmaneely at bellsouth.net (fhmaneely) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:11:01 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! *Cover SPOILERs* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125791 Inkling: "I do think the potions text being on the cover is quite > significant. On the Today show this morning (video also on > Mugglenet)Al Roker was really wailing on Arthur A. Levine, wanting to > know if Snape is the HBP -- pretty funny, you could hear the cameramen > laughing! . To my mind, this text being on the cover raises the > likelihood of Snape being the one and that *is* way cool!" > Jim Ferer: One thing we can imagine is that Harry did very well on his Potions OWL and is now in NEWT level Potions, which will produce a certain amount of tension, to put it elegantly. On the other had, Harry did not do well, and DD is tutoring him..... But it looks like Harry has gotten over his anger at DD. Maybe Harry's stay at the Dursleys is short becasue DD is helping with potions this summer. Fran From lsanford at lnls.org Wed Mar 9 13:51:57 2005 From: lsanford at lnls.org (L Sanford) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:51:57 -0600 Subject: What are the perks of "Death Eating"? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125792 Something that has been nettling the back of my mind throughout my absolute enjoyment of this series is this: What exactly ARE the advantages/perks of being a death eater? On the surface, it is the promise of power sometime in the undefined future. But what are they really getting themselves into? Here is an *entity* who is obsessed with defeating his OWN mortality, (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall in canon that he will or won't share the benefits of his discoveries with his followers) does the initial burn on the arm, burns them thereafter when he wants to summon them, crucios them if something does not go as planned, demands absolute obedience, absolute loyalty and absolute faith in him as their *entity* and for what? I don't really see that the DE's as a group or as individuals have been particularly all that well rewarded. In return, they are feared, (possibly a form of power over others) loathed, and marked by others in the WW as something to be shunned and and defeated - even if it means the death of those who are opposing them. And . . If fighting death eaters results in the death of the fighter, they become martyrs - rejuvinating and galvanizing the efforts of everyone else opposing them (the Longbottoms for example). Honestly, the only death eater I've seen to directly benefit from his association with LV is Peter Pettigrew (the silver hand, presumably superior to the one he *used* to have). Ironically, he is the most cowardly and unstable of them all. What gives?" Molley (who's been up all night taking care of sick puppy dogs and thus is rambling this morning.) From starmom513 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 18:06:16 2005 From: starmom513 at yahoo.com (starmom513) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:06:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050309180616.4513.qmail@web51903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125793 --- doddiemoemoe wrote: > > Since the release of the book covers...anyone out > there wondering or > making new speculations about who the HBP is??? > > I'm begining to wonder if it is Dumbledore..... > > I believe someone (perhaps Malfoy) made the comment > that he was the > champion of "mudbloods"... I had the same thought after seeing the various covers yesterday -- especially the Scholastic one and the way the words "and the Half-Blood Prince" look. Isn't Dumbledore's handwriting described as "spidery" and "loopy"? Probably a long shot, but something else to throw into the mix. starmom From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 19:25:32 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 19:25:32 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! *Cover SPOILERs* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125794 > On the other had, Harry did not do well, and DD is tutoring him..... > But it looks like Harry has gotten over his anger at DD. Maybe > Harry's stay at the Dursleys is short becasue DD is helping with > potions this summer. > Fran Definitely possible, and I really believe that Harry and Dumbledore will be spending more time together; but I've got ten Sickles that says Harry did a lot better on his OWL than expected; he even felt better about his OWL than hte expected to. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 9 19:32:59 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 19:32:59 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS In-Reply-To: <95183c4305030707582e4f1b36@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125795 Amy wrote: > I have often asked myself this same question. I mean if anyone is > going to get 12 OWLs it will be Hermione. > > I like your idea that maybe there are different types of OWLs within > each subject. I truly believe that this would make the most since and > would simulate our own educational testing. However, another theory I > have is that you don't have to take a class to take the OWL on it. > Meaning that Hermione can still take the Divination OWL even though > she dropped the class. Only the truly dedicated witch\wizard would > even attempt to go for 12 OWLs and those that do are probably talented > enough to get it. Some of the OWLs such as History of Magic, > Mugglestudies, and even Divination could technically be achieved by > reading books instead of taking the class. Hannah again now: I'm glad someone thinks my alternative OWL theories make sense! I've heard the idea that maybe clever students like Hermione could take OWLs without attending the classes before. I suppose it is possible (and I know it can be done in the RL, though it makes you pretty unpopular with those who attend the classes). The only problem is that Hermione had her Arithmancy exam at the same time as Ron and Harry had Divination, suggesting that some subjects (presumably those in the same timetable slots at the school) are incompatible. So even if Hermione wanted to do Divination, she wouldn't be able to (unless she was kept in seclusion and did the exam after everyone else, which again happens in the RL). I guess if she was going to do anything extra, it would Muggle Studies, which shouldn't be too difficult for a Muggleborn to pass. I still think that it must be possible to get 12 OWLs without having to take extra regular subjects. If anyone can do it, it's got to be Hermione, and she doesn't seem to be using that method in canon. Just another thing we'll have to wait for HBP to find out (though I suspect that all this could stem from JKR's mathematical problems!) Hannah From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 9 15:31:43 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:31:43 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: <20050309145313.74796.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125796 > Beth: > One thought that keeps popping into my head is that since Lily's love saved Harry, and that love was in Harry's blood protecting him,perhaps LV also had some of the Evans/Potter blood in him thus > protecting him from the rebound. > > Hannah now: > I like this theory. Lily could be related to LV > through his Muggle father's side. > > theotokos replied: I also like this theory on first read, but I was under the impression that JKR ruled out the possibility of LV being related to Harry. At her website in the "Rumors" paper, in response to the question posted 18/02/04 "Voldemort is Harry's real father/grandfather/close relative of some description" she states: No, no, no, no, no. [snip] Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin. If LV is a descendant and Harry cannot be doesn't that imply Harry and LV are not related? And if they are not related then LV and Lily cannot be related. I thought she had said more clearly somewhere but cannot find where. Hannah now: You are right about this, Theotokos, but I still think my (well, Beth's) theory could stand. JKR says he's not a 'close' relative. Now, that kind of qualification by JKR immediately flags up to me the question 'oh, so he could still be a *distant* relation then.' Or it may mean they're not related at all, of course, but I don't think it rules out a distant connection. The Slytherin link also doesn't rule it out, as long as Lily and Tom are related via Tom's father. The Slytherin blood is on Tom's mother's side. So Harry could be distantly related to TR via his father's side without being any kind of Slytherin descendant. Hannah From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 19:44:16 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:44:16 -0500 Subject: Of Pensieves and Potions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125797 Just tossing in another two cents on the pensieve cover and the possibilities thereof. We know that a pensieve is basically a bowl with some stuff in it that can hold and display memories using some sort of magical process. Is it the bowl that is magical or is it the stuff inside? It seems possible that the stuff inside is the physical manifestation of the memories contained therein but I don't know that there's any real evidence to prove it. What if the bowl is irrelevant, only used because that's what you keep liquids in when you want to have ready access to them? What if it is the stuff that is magical? It's described as "light made liquid" or "wind made solid." If it's magical and liquid, wouldn't that make it a potion? Now look at what it does. It saves memories. Our memories?our experiences filtered through our own perceptions?are a big part of who we are. If Harry had memories of his parents, his life would be much different. Imagine if you wanted to cheat death. Imagine you wanted to find a way to save that which makes up your identity should anything happen. Wouldn't saving your memories be a good starting point? Isn't it possible that Snape's job as a Death Eater was to work on turning the pensieve potion (assuming it is one) into something that could hold not just memories but all the other mental aspects of our identity? We know that Voldemort had a potion to bring his body back. Seems to me that only makes sense if you also have a way to bring back the non physical aspects of yourself too?or that you at least have a reasonable expectation of having it soon. The potion that brings your body back requires the blood of an enemy. I don't think it would be all that unremarkable if the potion to bring your mind back required the mind (or at least some portion of the mind) of an enemy. With Lily and James dead, and nobody understanding the significance of Harry's survival, or perhaps simply Harry's inaccessibility, wouldn't Voldemort's greatest remaining enemy be the Longbottoms? Imagine this. Snape is working on a death-cheating potion for Lord Thingy. He develops the potion for bringing back bodies and is close to completing the mind potion as well when someone else gets it done first. This other guy becomes Voldie's most favored potion maker. Snape, who prides himself on his abilities is ashamed of the fact that he didn't get it done first and angered that someone else is the most favored potion maker. Snape leaves the Death Eaters not out of any nobility but because he's ashamed, angry, and jealous. From the outside, it's the kind of thing that would look like a redemptive pattern but really be something else entirely. And don't we have some words from Rowling on the supposed redemptive qualities in Snape? Voldemort seemingly made it clear to his Death Eaters that he had taken steps to protect himself from death and yet they didn't search for him en masse when he disappeared. Why? Clearly they didn't believe him. But Bellatrix did. Why? Perhaps she was the one who developed the potion that worked and thus knew that there was a chance of Voldemort coming back. So once Voldemort meets Harry that night at Godric's Hollow, and disappears, Bellatrix goes to his enemies to get the ingredients. We are told that Bellatrix et al crucio-ed the Longbottoms into insanity but how would anyone know? We don't know if anyone was there who can provide direct evidence. Suppose it wasn't crucio'ing that drove the Longbottoms insane but rather that Bellatrix stole their minds to use them in a potion to bring Voldemort back. It's all supposition of course but I think it makes for further interesting speculation. It would explain why Bellatrix seems to be favored by Lord Voldie. It would explain why they attacked the Longbottoms rather than anyone else. It would explain how Dumbledore can trust Snape not to go back to Voldemort. I would assume that Snape would not stop just because someone else did it. He would want to do it better. And perhaps he has. And perhaps that is what's on the cover, a potion that would protect Harry's life should Voldemort come get him. Wouldn't that be akin to refereeing the quidditch match first year? If Snape saves Harry's life permanently, he can go on hating James' memory forever. -- Gregory Lynn From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 9 19:49:12 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:49:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050309194912.63842.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125798 > theotokos replied: I also like this theory on first read, but I was under the impression that JKR ruled out the possibility of LV being related to Harry. At her website in the "Rumors" paper, in response to the question posted 18/02/04 "Voldemort is Harry's real father/grandfather/close relative of some description" she states: No, no, no, no, no. [snip] Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin. If LV is a descendant and Harry cannot be a descendant, doesn't that imply Harry and LV are not related? And if they are not related then LV and Lily cannot be related. I thought she had said it more clearly somewhere but cannot find where. Hannah now: You are right about this, Theotokos, but I still think my (well, Beth's) theory could stand. JKR says he's not a 'close' relative. Now, that kind of qualification by JKR immediately flags up to me the question 'oh, so he could still be a *distant* relation then.' Or it may mean they're not related at all, of course, but I don't think it rules out a distant connection. The Slytherin link also doesn't rule it out, as long as Lily and Tom are related via Tom's father. The Slytherin blood is on Tom's mother's side. So Harry could be distantly related to TR via his father's side without being any kind of Slytherin descendant. Theotokos again: Okay, Hannah, I can go there with you. Just because Harry is not a descendent of Slytherin, doesn't mean he can't be somehow connected to LV in another way. In answering that rumor, JKR never said "NO NO NO there is no relation between Harry and LV" --she merely states that James is for sure Harry's father and Harry is not a descendant of SalSly. If there was no relation she may have been sure to squash the rumor right then. I am liking this theory more and more. Now--anyone out there want to point out something obvious that we've overlooked? Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 9 19:47:18 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 19:47:18 -0000 Subject: What are the perks of "Death Eating"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125799 Molley wrote: > Something that has been nettling the back of my mind throughout my absolute enjoyment of this series is this: What exactly ARE the advantages/perks of being a death eater? On the surface, it is the promise of power sometime in the undefined future. But what are they really getting themselves into? >What gives? Hannah: I think a lot of DE's would ask the same thing. I get the impression that many of them joined at a young age, and, like Regulus Black, had no real idea what they were getting into. A bit like some of the RL cults that prey on young people and then turn out to be rather more sinister than they first appear. The trouble is, as Sirius says, you don't just hand in your resignation to LV. If you're a DE, then you're one for life. If you want to leave, you're dead. As we see in the graveyard scene, where 'the one who has left forever' has been killed. I suspect that a lot of DE's, particularly the minor ones (the Averys and Crabbes and Goyles of the inner circle), were relieved when LV disappeared, evidenced by their hasty return to 'respectability' and lack of enthusiasm for attempting to find LV. When he returned, they had little choice but to toe the line again, or be hunted down and killed. When Sirius talks about the DE's and LV at the beginning of OotP, he mentions how a lot of witches and wizards thought he had a good idea before he showed his true colours. I'm guessing a lot of the DE's joined LV as a sort of political party, and then were tricked or tempted into getting the Dark Mark, and only when they were in too far to back out did they discover what it really entailed. Of course, there are some fanatics like Bella who are in it for the torturing, or through genuine belief in LV's pureblood cause. But there are a lot of others, IMO, who get very little out of Death Eating (as you illustrate so nicely in your post), and probably wish they could get out. JMO Hannah From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 08:05:48 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 08:05:48 -0000 Subject: HBP covers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125800 BBKKYY: You all are sooo cool. I must go to sleep, work tomorrow, but IMO it's a pensieve. Surely that's DD and I hope after OOTP that DD will be spending a whole lot more time with Harry. In the past years they saw each other distantly and had one talk at the end of the year. Harry has a lot to learn if he's going to be the one to face V and surely DD will be teaching him personally, not leaving it to others (Snape). In the past Harry has excaped IMO purely by chance, he needs training badly. DD and Harry seem to be looking in a pensieve, since DD knows everything almost, he must be showing Harry something about the past. Hmmm. Also, on the other cover they seem to be fighting something together. I'm worried about DD. I'm so excited I can't wait. From lsanford at lnls.org Wed Mar 9 14:16:03 2005 From: lsanford at lnls.org (L Sanford) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:16:03 -0600 Subject: What are the perks of being a death eater? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125801 Something has been tickling the back of my brain ever since I have been thoroughly enjoying (and re-enjoying) this series of books. What exactly are the perks of being a death eater? On the surface, one would presume it to be a promise of power in some form or another and advancement of a pureblood theology. But what are they Really getting out of the deal? Here we have an *entity* (for lack of a better term) who has throughout the series been obsessed with achieving his OWN immortality. Nowhere in canon do I recall his intention, spoken or otherwise, to share his discoveries with his followers so that they might also become immortal. (Note: nowhere does it say that he *won't*. I'm making an assumption here with full awareness of what can happen when you ASSUME.) There is the initial burn in the arm, subsequent burnings when he wants to call everyone together, crucios to the unlucky who make a mistake or when things just don't go as planned and the expectation of absolute obedience, absolute loyalty and absolute faith in him as LV. In return, they are feared (admittedly a form of power over others), loathed, and considered by the rest of the WW as people to be shunned at best and utterly destroyed at worst. Wizards are willing to die in their fight against them and should they die, they become martyrs rejuvenating and inspiring the other fighters of DEs to similar efforts and sacrifices. (Remember the Longbottoms?) There is nothing really concrete for them to gain by being what they are unless LV obliterates his opposition. A mere defeat won't accomplish his victory - anyone who live to fight another day becomes another hero or martyr, spurring on another war . . .it potentially never ends. Is this how one wants to spend their immortality? ;-) Honestly, the only death eater to have gained anything from their association with LV is Peter Pettigrew. (The silver hand, which is *presumably* superior to the one he used to have.) Ironically, he is the most loathsome, cowardly unstable death eater of them all. If I were a death eater, just being in the same room with him would make me ill. So what gives? What are they really getting out of all this? Molley - who was up all night taking care of sick puppy dogs and thus is rambling this morning From valy1x2 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 15:56:11 2005 From: valy1x2 at hotmail.com (Valy) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:56:11 +0100 Subject: Liberius and Felix II and Cover on HBP book!!! References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125802 Tonks said: The potions book is written by Libarius Borage. Meltowne said: It looks more like Libatius to me, not Liberius. Libatius reminds me of Libatious or libations - relating to pouring, which would make sense with potions. Valy says: I know this may seem wacko but... what if Snape wasn't giving potion classes this year? What if he became the DADA teacher? (who knows?) Or worse... what if he was missing?? That something happened to him? (Half-Blood Prince? Voldy-poo got him? What else??) What if Felix was the new DADA teacher? Or the new potion teacher? Or something/someone else? Confusing, I know. Brain is wacko today, please excuse it. Valy. From inkling108 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 20:00:19 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:00:19 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! *Cover SPOILERs* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" > wrote: > To my mind, this text being on the cover > > raises the likelihood of Snape being the one and that *is* way > cool! > Then GEO wrote: Then by your reasoning considering that Dumbledore is on 2/3 of > the covers shouldn't he be the HBP? To which Inkling replies, Well, I'd say the cover art, taken all together, raises the odds for both Snape and Dumbledore as opposed to other candidates -- but of course nothing's certain, especially with JKR! I'm just hoping it's Snape because I think it would make for the most intriguing plot line. One thing I do think can definitely be inferred from the UK cover is that Harry passes his potions OWL and Snape is forced to admit him to his advanced classes, but this was likely anyway, given the way JKR set up the potions OWL scene in OotP. Inkling From shunrata at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 16:02:31 2005 From: shunrata at gmail.com (Shunra Shunrata) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:02:31 +0200 Subject: Pensieves, Potions, and Peril: The HBP Covers References: Message-ID: <016b01c524c1$70f4b2e0$0100000a@Imma> No: HPFGUIDX 125804 Arcum wrote: | And for the truly obsessive... why is Harry holding his wand in | his *left* hand in front of the pensieve/potion/artifact, when | he is, in fact, right handed? I've obsessed about this a few times already, this is now the third time in a row Harry is holding his wand in his left hand on the (Scholastic) cover. Ideas? Shunra From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 20:04:26 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:04:26 -0000 Subject: Libalius vs. Libatius + covers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125805 Karen wrote: > I'm pretty sure that's a 't' and not an 'l', and here's why: > > Look at the ascender on the letter 'b' - it's actually a bit higher > than the capitals. The vertical element of the letter in question > clearly does not go anywhere near that high, and it would be a > stangely designed font that has such a discrepancy. A small 't', on > the other hand, usually is much shorter than than 'b', 'h', 'l', > etc. So, even though I can't see the crossmark, I'm sure that's > a 't'. > > Something that bothers me about the picture of the book - although > the book itself looks tattered and old, perhaps *very* old, the > lettering and graphics look modern, in fact, they look computer > generated (as opposed to hand lettering or mechanical type). > Worse, it looks to me like the title etc. were simply photoshopped > rather than actually applied to a real book. So all of you out > there waiting for that prop to auctioned off for charity, don't > hold your breath... > > Karen, who could be wrong about the photoshopping, but is pretty > darn sure about the 't' I think you're absolutely right about the photoshopping. If you draw an imaginary line from the point in the centre of the swirly flourishes at the top (above 'Harry Potter') to the point in the centre of the swirly flourishes at the bottom (below 'Libatius Borage') it's not parallel with the left margin of the book; and you can't put that down to perspective, because it's way way off parallel with the right hand margin of the book, too. I feel cheated. But to drag this back on-topic, I'm not sure that we can guess anything from it, it's just Harry's potions textbook, and when was Adalbert Waffling significant? As for the pensieve on the US cover, it's true the light coming out of it is green. The description from GoF is thus: "A shallow stone basin lay there, with odd carvings around the edge; runes and symbols that Harry did not recognise. The silvery light was coming from the basin's contents, which were like nothing Harry had ever seen before." (I'm sure that somewhere the pensieve is also described as a 'chipped stone basin', but I can't find where.) Silver light, not green light, it says. Why green? SSSusan says "Because they're watching the AK display at Godric's Hollow, of course!" Perfectly possible. On the other hand, from an artistic perspective, silvery light is effectively white light, which is extremely boring to draw. Candlelight is yellow, even sunshine is yellow; sunsets make nice pictures not only because of the pretty colours of the sky, but because the pink light softens everything else too. White light is difficult and not visually interesting (it's also why you always look terrible under neon strip-lights). But why *green*? Why not blue? (GoF was blue.) Well why not red or purple or orange light then? SSSusan's right, the green light *is* suggestive, in a way that other colours would not be. However, I'm not holding out for a full and frank disclosure of what happened at Godric's Hollow; I'm expecting to have to wait for that until book 7. I almost don't want to get my hopes up. Dungrollin Minus fingernails. From collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 17:05:52 2005 From: collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com (jina haymaker) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:05:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: HBP / Dumbledore as HBP? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050309170553.75768.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125806 Doddie wrote: > anyone out there wondering or making new speculations about > who the HBP is? I'm beginning to wonder if it is Dumbledore... > I believe someone (perhaps Malfoy) made the comment that he > was the champion of "mudbloods"... This would make sense....if only JK said that he wasn't. I at first thought that it was DD too, but JK said he isn't (and neither is Harry). Jina From inkling108 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 20:07:32 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:07:32 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! *Cover SPOILERs* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125807 Jim Ferer wrote: > It's possible, but would JKR give it up that easily? One thing we can > imagine is that Harry did very well on his Potions OWL and is now in > NEWT level Potions, which will produce a certain amount of tension, to > put it elegantly. > Well, remember that some Order of the Phoenix members did appear on the American cover of the same name, albeit in the shadows. So, yes, cover art can be a clue to the meaning of the title. Yes, yes Harry and Snape go head to head in NEWT level potions -- arrive early for good seats! Inkling From beth6581 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 17:59:40 2005 From: beth6581 at yahoo.com (beth6581) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 17:59:40 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125808 > GEO: Voldemort didn't destroy the blood protection that was placed > on Harry by Lily's sacrifice, the ritual that he took part in GoF > allowed him to share in that protection, which then nixes your > theory that Voldy is part Evans. As for his survival, I think > Voldemort himself has some sort of blood protection akin to that of > Harry's placed on him by his own dying mother. Beth now: I don't think I agree that LV performed that ritual with the idea that Harry's blood would afford him any protection. I think he was performing a spell...bone of the father, flesh of the servant, blood of the enemy....to bring him back to full power. I think the glint in DD's eyes tells us that, unknowingly, LV just did something that could prove to be his downfall in the future. Hannah: > > In destroying Lily's direct blood protection on Harry so that LV > > can touch him, he has also destroyed his own indirect blood > > protection that prevented him dying in the first place? I really like that...I couldn't quite put my finger on what DD's glint might mean, and I also noticed how odd it was that LV told Lily to stand aside...what you just speculated fits in really well with both of those mysteries, along with why LV might not have died in the first place...very interesting! Beth From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 20:20:37 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:20:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pensieves, Potions, and Peril: The HBP Covers In-Reply-To: <016b01c524c1$70f4b2e0$0100000a@Imma> References: <016b01c524c1$70f4b2e0$0100000a@Imma> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125809 On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:02:31 +0200, Shunra Shunrata wrote: > > > Arcum wrote: > | And for the truly obsessive... why is Harry holding his wand in > | his *left* hand in front of the pensieve/potion/artifact, when > | he is, in fact, right handed? > > I've obsessed about this a few times already, this is now the third time in > a row Harry is holding his wand in his left hand on the (Scholastic) cover. > > Ideas? > > Shunra > Perhaps the point is that Harry Potter is us. After all, if we were standing in front of a mirror holding a wand in our right hand, it would appear in the mirror as if it were in the left hand. And Harry Potter is a very everyman-ish kind of name. -- Gregory Lynn From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 20:35:43 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:35:43 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "beth6581" wrote: > Beth now: I don't think I agree that LV performed that ritual with > the idea that Harry's blood would afford him any protection. I think > he was performing a spell...bone of the father, flesh of the servant, > blood of the enemy....to bring him back to full power. GEO: Voldemort himself said that he wanted to share in the protection that Lily gave to Harry during the graveyard scene in GoF so he didn't destroy the protection that Lily gave to Harry as even he himself acknowledges. "... if I was to rise again, more powerful than I had been when I had fallen. I wanted Harry Potters blood. I wanted the blood of the one who had stripped me of power thirteen years ago for the lingering protection his mother once gave him would then reside in my veins too." From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 20:41:29 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:41:29 -0000 Subject: HBP / Dumbledore as HBP? In-Reply-To: <20050309170553.75768.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125811 Doddie wrote: anyone out there wondering or making new speculations about who the HBP is? I'm beginning to wonder if it is Dumbledore... Jina; This would make sense....if only JK said that he wasn't. I at first thought that it was DD too, but JK said he isn't (and neither is Harry). Alla: Jina, could you please, please provide the link? I was not aware that she ever said that, only that it is not Voldemort(or Tom Riddle) or Harry. To me it will be a great dissapointment if Dumbledore is excluded from the list of candidates, althought not as much as if Remus will be excluded. Thank you so much, Alla From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 20:51:17 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:51:17 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! *Cover SPOILERs* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125812 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: > Well, I'd say the cover art, taken all together, raises the odds for > both Snape and Dumbledore as opposed to other candidates -- but of > course nothing's certain, especially with JKR! I'm just hoping it's > Snape because I think it would make for the most intriguing plot > line. GEO: I agree it seems quite likely that Snape is the halfblood prince especially since we have the potions text on the cover of the adult edition, which could be associated with Snape taken into consideration that previous covers for the adult edition all showed symbols of or the actual title plot device. However considering that the previous plot devices were only introduced in the said book bearing its names then the HBP might indeed be a new character altogether neither DD or Snape. > One thing I do think can definitely be inferred from the UK cover is > that Harry passes his potions OWL and Snape is forced to admit him > to his advanced classes, but this was likely anyway, given the way > JKR set up the potions OWL scene in OotP. GEO: I agree thats quite likely and probably how the story is going to play out. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Mar 9 20:58:58 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:58:58 -0000 Subject: Adult editions (was Re: News Flash! HBP covers released!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: Hannah: > Lack of relevance? Well, the front cover of > UK PS shows the Hogwarts express - not the most vital plot element > in that book, and that of UK CoS shows the flying car - again, not > terribly relevant to the ultimate plot, though great fun. GEO: But I don't believe those initial books had adult > editions so > > those examples aren't really comparable in my opinion. Hannah now: You're partly right. I just checked Amazon, and those > books did have adult editions but the covers are different to how I > thought (though I could have sworn that there was an adult edition > of CoS at some point with a stylised car on the front). Anyway, the > cover pictures on Amazon are of a red stone for PS, and a door with > snakes on (not the film version) for CoS, so your point about the > comparability is valid. Geoff: At one point last year, I replaced all my HP books with UK hardback editions, supposedly for adults, because my paperbacks were getting tatty after constant thumbing to keep up with my reputation for finding canon quotes. :-) They have a plain coloured binding but each has a square coloured illustration on the front in the centre, roughly 4" square. This is the same picture which appeared on the childrens' paperbacks - ie the Hogwarts Express for PS; the Ford Anglia for COS; and Harry and Hermione flying on Buckbeak for POA. Following up Hannah's comments re the early editions, my copies of PS, COS and POA are listed as first published in this edition in 1999. From shalimar07 at aol.com Wed Mar 9 18:23:31 2005 From: shalimar07 at aol.com (mumweasley7) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:23:31 -0000 Subject: Liberius and Felix II and Cover on HBP book!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125814 Tonks wrote: > Borage originated in the Middle East and was associated with > bravery. The ancient Celtic warriors drank borage-flavored wine > to give them courage. Herbalists believed that borage imparted > a sense of well-being, and the Roman scholar Pliny considered > it to be an antidepressant. > ---- > Add this to what I wrote about Liberius. What do you all think? You ask "What does this all mean"....Maybe a new potions teacher that's knowledgeable, brave and FUN! One can only hope. Shalimar From imontero at iname.com Wed Mar 9 18:31:12 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:31:12 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125815 > SSSusan wrote: > The U.S. cover shows Harry & DD looking at what appears to > be a pensieve, I'd think it might be possible that > the cover depiction *is* of a flashback of sorts, maybe even > of the events of GH if DD has a reason to possess a memory > of it. Luna: I just wanted to add, we are assuming that the pensieve like object in the American cover **is** a pensieve. I think it is way too big... Both Harry and DD are looking into it so this object shows images (or some kind of information). Could it be a super sized pensieve or just a new magical object JKR is introducing in HBP? From mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 19:40:27 2005 From: mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com (Amy Klein) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:40:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pensieve on cover In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050309194027.70811.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125816 When I first saw the cover I automatically assumed it was Dumbledore...now I need to go and look again. As for the pensieve, I thought it was at first. However in OoP Dumbledore and Snape were able to pick it up and place it on their desks, almost like a little jeweled jewlery box. On the cover this looks to be all one thing. Therefore I do not think it is Dumbledore's pensive. It almost reminds me of a rustic looking Galadriel Mirror. Who knows....we can only speculate. Amy Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shalimar07 at aol.com Wed Mar 9 18:35:13 2005 From: shalimar07 at aol.com (mumweasley7) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:35:13 -0000 Subject: Lily's description / Blood protection, LV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125817 > Beth wrote: > I always try to keep in mind, however, that JKR insists that > we should all be trying to figure out why LV didn't die. One > thought that keeps popping into my head is that since Lily's > love saved Harry, and that love was in Harry's blood protecting > him, perhaps LV also had some of the Evans/Potter blood in him > thus protecting him from the rebound. I've thought about the reason LV didn't die that night at Godric's Hollow...I read an editorial recently (sorry, can't remember who wrote it) that said maybe Lily had saved LV at some point. If this is true maybe he became upset enough with her enough that he temporarily 'forgot' that he owed her a life debt. Can this be the ancient magic? Maybe you have to save the person who saved you before you can kill them, otherwise the curse would backfire back to the person performing the curse. "mumweasley7" From virgivilla at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 20:12:22 2005 From: virgivilla at yahoo.com (Virginia Villamediana) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:12:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: Is that really Dumbledore on the cover of HBP? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050309201222.99712.qmail@web40525.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125818 Eggplant wrote: > It could be Dumbledore, but it could also be the new character > described in the only known quote from the new book: > > "He looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in > his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish > eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, > loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp." Virgivilla: I think with that description in the quote from the new book, is possible that character is no other than Godric Gryffindor. I don't know if it is the one on the cover but is probably that Gryffindor may seem like a lion because that is the symbol of his house. From valy1x2 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 20:16:17 2005 From: valy1x2 at hotmail.com (Valy) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:16:17 +0100 Subject: HBP / Dumbledore as HBP? References: <20050309170553.75768.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125819 Doddie: anyone out there wondering or making new speculations about > who the HBP is? I'm beginning to wonder if it is Dumbledore... Valy replies: I'm beginning too, despite my thoughts are still set on Snape being the HBP. Too much hints in my opinion, unless JKR is being evil and leading us on a false way. By seeing the covers, she's making us choose between DD and Snape... I believe someone (perhaps Malfoy) made the comment that he > was the champion of "mudbloods"... Valy replies: Nope, that's Voldemort who made this statement. :) Jina said: >This would make sense....if only JK said that he wasn't. I at first >thought that it was DD too, but JK said he isn't (and neither is >Harry). Valy replies: Really? I didn't know she ALSO said this. I only remember "Neither Harry or Voldy" I know she also said Hagrid wasn't (which is logical, he's half-breed, not half-blood) And neither Ron, Draco, and any Malfoy. But I really didn't know about Dumbledore. Where did she say this? I'm a curious nature needing confirmations, but don't worry, I don't doubt your statements. I'm just wanting to see it... lol. But JKR stated we will be very stunned at the discovery of the HBP. Mmmh... I'm going to post a (spoilers heavy) theory about Snape being the HBP. See it coming! Valy. From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Wed Mar 9 22:51:06 2005 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 22:51:06 -0000 Subject: Adult editions (was Re: News Flash! HBP covers released!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125820 --- In HPforGrownups, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups, "Hannah" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > > GEO: But I don't believe those initial books > > > had adult editions so those examples aren't > > > really comparable in my opinion. Actually, they did, and the covers featured in a way the same items as the UK children's covers - see below. > > Hannah now: You're partly right. I just > > checked Amazon, and those books did have > > adult editions but the covers are different > > to how I thought (though I could have sworn > > that there was an adult edition of CoS at > > some point with a stylised car on the front). > > Anyway, the cover pictures on Amazon are of a > > red stone for PS, and a door with snakes on > > (not the film version) for CoS, so your point > > about the comparability is valid. > > Geoff: > At one point last year, I replaced all my HP > books with UK hardback editions, supposedly for > adults [...] They have a plain coloured binding > but each has a square coloured illustration on > the front in the centre, roughly 4" square. > This is the same picture which appeared on the > childrens' paperbacks [...] Following up Hannah's > comments re the early editions, my copies of PS, > COS and POA are listed as first published in this > edition in 1999. The current set of adult covers for the first four books is a new set, replaceing the original one - the intent is to better match the style of the adult cover for OotP. The original adult covers were somewhat moody in style. For PS it had a head-on b&w photo of a dark steam-locomotive with an impressive plume of smoke; for CoS a photo of a light-coloured Ford Anglia edited into a picture of clouds; for PoA a realistic photo of a hippogriff flying (well, photoedit, really); and for GoF a Chinese (or inspired by Chinese art) drawing of a dragon. The three first can be seen at: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/harrycoverbritadult.html Tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/6om7g The first adult cover for GoF can be seen at: http://www.asiabook.com/browse/bookinfo.asp?ProdID=9780747550792 Tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/6hcgo Best regards Christian Stub? From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 21:25:21 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:25:21 -0000 Subject: Question about House Elves (was: Wizard supremacy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125821 Toni wrote: > I remember reading in FB (which I'm sorry, I don't have with > me, so I can't quote), that there was a least one magical creature > that was created by wizards. Isn't it possible that the house elf > is another one of these creatures? In that case, the wizarding > world would not have enslaved another "race" of being, but would > have created a creature to serve its needs. a_svirn: I doubt that house elves constitute a "race". More likely they are another species altogether like centaurs or goblins. We don't have enough information to judge whether they were created or enslaved (and I for one find it extremely strange that Hermione didn't bother to research their history), but I'm inclined to support the latter. The name HOUSE elves suggest that there are also "wild" elves out there. Or, more likely, there where wild elves one upon a time, but wizards took care of them. a_svirn From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 21:42:47 2005 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:42:47 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! *Cover SPOILERs* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125822 > Inkling: > I do think the potions text being on the cover is quite > significant. To my mind, this text being on the cover > raises the likelihood of Snape being the one and that *is* > way cool! I have a question about this. Where is the potion text? The cover I have seen has Harry and "Dumbledore" looking into some sort of perhaps cauldron. It is a green cover and the only text on the page is Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. What other text is there? sherry From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 22:10:26 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 22:10:26 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125823 > Tammy: > Your example is no less misleading than mine. In my example, we're > talking about two members of the same species. Your example is two > different species. Are you trying to say that Wizards and Muggles > are two different species then? If so, how do you get muggleborns? > And where do squibs come from then? a_svirn: I am no more saying that muggles and wizards are different species than you were saying that they are different genders. I was merely pointing out that wizards can CHOOSE to be charitable and leave Muggles alone, or CHOOSE to be less charitable and indulge in muggle- hunting. Muggles can only hope that they won't be singled out for wizarding entertainment, because there is nothing whatsoever that they can do to prevent it. That makes them inferior. > Tammy: > Muggles are happier not knowing about magic. Actually, we're happier > not knowing about a lot of things. Look back into history - we once > knew the world was flat. When people tried to say differently they > were killed. We once knew we were the center of the universe. Anyone > who said anything else was killed. Muggles through the ages have > proven that they just can't handle their beliefs being challenged and > changed. Would muggles eventually come to understand it? Sure, if > given enough time. But in the meantime how many witches and wizards > would have to die? a_svirn: First, you are again championing wizards here, not Muggles. Second, who says that wizards and witches "would have to die?" As far as I remember from Harry's essay, witches were actually in no danger from Muggles. They only needed to perform necessary charm and enjoy nice "tickling sensation" instead of burning. > Tammy: > As Hagrid says, muggles would constantly want a magical solution > to their problems. And I'm not talking about just the big ones like > medical problems or electricity. I think the wizarding world could > easily, and happily, provide some of those bigger things to the > muggles if not for the Secrecy Statute. It's the smaller things, > like cleaning and cooking. a_svirn: And? Why not? If magic can save innocent lives from diseases, starvation and God knows what else why not help fellow humans? Are we back to the conviction that Muggles are not worthy of magic because they are inferior? And notice that Hagrid's attitude towards Muggles is one of the most hostile in the series. It could have been Malfoy talking. > Tammy: > Muggles could conceivably end up enslaving wizards. a_svirn: My imagination fails me there. Could you please elaborate? > Tammy: > And before you say that would never happen - how did house elves > end up as slaves? a_svirn: How can I possibly know? Only JKR knows the answer at this stage. a_svirn From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 23:23:05 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 23:23:05 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! *Cover SPOILERs* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125824 > I have a question about this. Where is the potion text? The cover I > have seen has Harry and "Dumbledore" looking into some sort of > perhaps cauldron. It is a green cover and the only text on the page > is Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. What other text is there? > > sherry Valky: There are two others, Sherry. to make it simple for you heres the links. http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpadult.jpg http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpchild.jpg From inkling108 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 23:23:15 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 23:23:15 -0000 Subject: US Cover: Picky Pensieve Details.... In-Reply-To: <20050309194027.70811.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125825 ...which may possibly turn out to be significant, so here goes: The more I looked at the pensieve (?) on the US cover, the more I thought it looked different from the way Ms. Grand Pre has illustrated Dumbledore's pensieve. I checked the Chapter illustrations for Snape's Worst Memory in OotP and The Pensieve in GoF and sure enough, the bowl on the cover of the US edition of HBP looks wider, more shallow, and has a more pronounced rim. It is also cracked in two places. This may be partly due to viewing it from a different angle (from below rather than above), but even so, it looks like a different bowl, and what about those cracks? Some speculations: It is not a pensieve but some other device, possibly to do with time, as some have suggested. It is a pensieve but it is not Dumbledore's pensieve. Whose is it? Possibly some ancient wizard, the HBP or one of his ancestors, or Godric Griffindor. It is cracked because it is very old. Or maybe it belonged to Harry's parents, and it was cracked during the explosion at Godric's Hollow the night they were killed. Dumbledore may have been keeping it safe for Harry in the same way he kept the invisibility cloak. In any case, the emotions (concern and apprehension on Dumbledore's part, alertness and wonder on Harry's) depicted on the cover point to something crucial from the past being revealed, something Dumbledore has heretofore been reluctant to show Harry. A pensieve would be one vehicle for this, but perhaps not the only one? Inkling From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 00:20:19 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:20:19 -0000 Subject: The Nature of House-Elves Links - (was:Wizard supremacy...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125826 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy" wrote: > > ...big Edit... > > Muggles could conceivably end up enslaving wizards. And before you say > that would never happen - how did house elves end up as slaves? House > elves seems to have powers that are different enough and in some ways > more powerful than wizards and witches, yet they are still working as > slaves. Dobby can apparate in Hogwarts where no witch or wizard can. > Why didn't the house-elves just apparate away where no witch or wizard > could find them? > > -Tammy bboyminn: Everything you ever wanted to ask about house-elves but were afraid I might answer ;) ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/88208 Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 6:19 pm Subject: Re: house elves and laundry (house elves and goblins) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82881 Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:11 pm Subject: Re: Dumbledore's Army = House Elves http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74080 Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:16 am Subject: Re: Goblins and House-Elves? Wild and Domesticated? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71752 Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:01 pm Subject: House-Elves & the Tie That Binds. (long) In another group- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/message/2309 Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:34 pm Subject: Re: How to Free a House-elf in One Easy Lesson That should keep you busy for a while. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 00:29:01 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:29:01 -0000 Subject: The Nature of House-Elves Links - (was:Wizard supremacy...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Oops, missed one... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/70704 Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:35 pm Subject: Re: Who do the Hogwarts house elves answer to? > > That should keep you busy for a while. > > Steve/bboyminn From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 00:34:05 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:34:05 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: <20050309194912.63842.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125828 > Hannah now: > You are right about this, Theotokos, but I still think my (well, Beth's) theory could stand. JKR says he's not a 'close' relative. Now, that kind of qualification by JKR immediately flags up to me the question 'oh, so he could still be a *distant* relation then.' Or it may mean they're not related at all, of course, but I don't think it rules out a distant connection. > > The Slytherin link also doesn't rule it out, as long as Lily and Tom > are related via Tom's father. The Slytherin blood is on Tom's > mother's side. So Harry could be distantly related to TR via his > father's side without being any kind of Slytherin descendant. > > > Theotokos again: > Okay, Hannah, I can go there with you. Just because Harry is not a descendent of Slytherin, doesn't mean he can't be somehow connected to LV in another way. In answering that rumor, JKR never said "NO NO NO there is no relation between Harry and LV" --she merely states that James is for sure Harry's father and Harry is not a descendant of SalSly. If there was no relation she may have been sure to squash the rumor right then. I am liking this theory more and more. Now--anyone out there want to point out something obvious that we've overlooked? > > Theotokos > > Antosha: Well, I actually rather like this theory, but one problem with it does occur to me: if LV is a cousin of Lily's, than why would living with Lily's blood relations protect Harry from him? And why would getting an infusion of Harry's blood make any difference? From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 10 03:25:53 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 03:25:53 -0000 Subject: Pensieves, Potions, and Peril: The HBP Covers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Gregory Lynn wrote: > > Perhaps the point is that Harry Potter is us. After all, if we were > standing in front of a mirror holding a wand in our right hand, it > would appear in the mirror as if it were in the left hand. And Harry > Potter is a very everyman-ish kind of name. > > -- > Gregory Lynn Actually, I think the more likely explanation is that Mary Grand Pre, the artist, is left-handed and tends to draw all of her characters that way. Lupinlore From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 10 03:41:16 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 03:41:16 -0000 Subject: Cover Art: Occulemncy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125830 What follows is sheer speculation regarding the Book Six cover art... As we all know, Snape's Occulemncy cirriculum with Harry was something less than a smashing success. But surely Book Six!Harry is not going to be doing the Voldy mind-meld as promisculously as his Book Five counterpart (too dramatically renundant). That means someone is going to have to teach Harry proper Occulemncy - and surely only one wizard so qualifies.... - CMC From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 10 03:48:31 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 03:48:31 -0000 Subject: A good narrative strategy (was Re: All the World's Problems; ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125831 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > > Lupinlore: " To put it even more strictly, let us suppose wizards are > capable of curing cancer (we know they don't suffer from it, at any > rate). I grant you there is nothing in the books that says this, but > let's suppose for an example. By holding themselves apart and denying > muggles the cures they can provide, are they not guilty of a grave sin > of omission, in effect murder by implied consent?" > > "Carol responds: As Nora has frequently pointed out, argument from > absence isn't a very solid argument. IOW, just because the narrator > hasn't mentioned any wizards dying from cancer doesn't mean that "we > *know* they don't suffer from it." > > Absolutely, it doesn't even suggest anything at all strongly. > > Carol: "Note that St. Mungo's is not a hospital of the type we're > familiar with. It doesn't treat cancer or heart disease or perform > surgery (stitches are an alien treatment used by Muggle doctors, who > are regarded with suspicion by both Ron and Mrs. Weasley). " > > We don't know this, either, for the same reason. We just haven't seen > it. Some of what Madame Pomfrey does could be considered [magical] > surgery. Bloodless and painless to be sure, but something akin to > surgery. Wizard Healers might treat both cancer and heart disease > with varying degrees of success. > > Without meaning to, Lupinlore answered the question why wizards don't > dare reveal themselves. If the wizard world has some kind of moral > obligation to fix things like cancer, then wizards have a lot to > answer for if they ever come out. Even if wizards can't cure cancer, > a lot of people won't believe it, and will think wizards are guilty of > grave sins of omission, in effect murder, for everything from cancer > to heart disease to not preventing 9/11 or the tsunami, and nobody > will be listening to explanations. > > It won't be long before people believe that wizards are running things > behind the scenes to suit themselves. It'll be a short step for some > people from believing that the wizards could have prevented the > tsunami to believing wizards **caused** the tsunami for some purpose > of their own. We live in a conspiracy theory world. > > Envy, resentment, and persecution are almost sure to follow if the > wizard world reveals itself. > > Jim Ferer I think this is a very good point. I also think it points out why, from the point of view of story construction and narrative strategy, JKR keeps the Wizarding World and the Muggle World as far apart as she can. Trying to deal with any kind of interface between them just raises far too many messy questions and would drag up all sorts of issues she doesn't want to deal with. Which is why I think it's a mistake to try and come up with "hidden messages" in the way JKR presents the split between the worlds, or even to try and make too much sense of it at all. It is a narrative strategy that makes it possible for her to tell the story she wants to tell. Trying to make some logical argument for the split misses the point that this is one of the first "buy ins" you have to make in order for the story to make any sense (perhaps the first after you buy in to the existance of wizards at all). Trying to argue that it makes sense is like trying to argue for the actual existance of wizards and witches, it misses the point that this is part of the basic rules of the universe JKR has created. I think it is legitimate to criticize JKR for not making sense within the rules of the universe she creates, and I have been very hard on her in numerous instances because I think she often makes just that error. However, on the question of basic rules like the existance of wizards and the fact that they live pretty much totally apart from the rest of us, I think she is justified in asking us just to take that at face value and go on. And I think that is all it really amounts to. Lupinlore From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 03:59:43 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 03:59:43 -0000 Subject: A good narrative strategy (was Re: All the World's Problems; ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125832 Lupinlore: I also think it points out why from the point of view of story construction and narrative strategy,JKR keeps the Wizarding World and the Muggle World as far apart as she can. Trying to deal with any kind of interface between them just raises far too many messy questions and would drag up all sorts of issues she doesn't want to deal with. However, on the question of basic rules like the existance of wizards and the fact that they live pretty much totally apart from the rest of us, I think she is justified in asking us just to take that at face value and go on. And I think that is all it really amounts to. Alla: I think this is one of the simplest and the best explanations of the split of muggle and magical worlds I have ever read. I am still wondering though why JKR specifically pointed out that the two worlds will not mesh at the end of the story. You know, theoretically, when story is done, she can briefly explore the good things which could come out of the fact that Wizards will make themselves known to the muggles and not to deal with possible messy issues. Do you think it would still compromise the narrative if two worlds were to meet at the end? Alla. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 10 04:13:30 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:13:30 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125833 SSSusan: > > Green light makes me think immediately of one thing: an AK. > > Since a pensieve replays memories, I'd think it might be > > possible that the cover depiction *is* of a flashback of sorts, > > maybe even of the events of GH if DD has a reason to possess a > > memory of it. Meltowne: > Or maybe DD is showing Harry how to use the penseive, and they are > looking at HARRY's memories of Godric's Hollow. Maybe DD thinks > Harry is old enough now to revisit that evening, and maybe it will > provide DD with information he needs - like who else was there. > > We were introduced to the idea of "mind reading" in previous > books, and we know that DD (and Snape too) is able to select > memories to place in the penseive. Harry doesn't know how to do > that yet, but he is the only one on "our side" that we know of > with retrievable memories of Godric's Hollow. SSSusan: I like this possibility, Meltowne -- that DD is either showing Harry how to access his own memory *or* that DD "extracted" the memory from Harry when he was a baby and stored it himself and is now going to show it to him. Granted, Harry still has auditory memory of the attack, but nothing visual. Maybe DD took it out & stored it so Harry wouldn't have to grow up replaying it?? Several listees have suggested that the (potential) Pensieve on the US cover isn't quite the correct size or shape as the Pensieve we've seen/had described previously. Might I suggest it's just a little artistic license in action? :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 10 04:19:01 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:19:01 -0000 Subject: A good narrative strategy (was Re: All the World's Problems; ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > Alla: > > I think this is one of the simplest and the best explanations of the > split of muggle and magical worlds I have ever read. > > I am still wondering though why JKR specifically pointed out that > the two worlds will not mesh at the end of the story. You know, > theoretically, when story is done, she can briefly explore the good > things which could come out of the fact that Wizards will make > themselves known to the muggles and not to deal with possible messy > issues. > > Do you think it would still compromise the narrative if two worlds > were to meet at the end? > > > Alla. It would in a sense. JKR has tried to create a world, the WW, that you can believe exists "in parallel" with ours. It is a tough balance, because she has to refer to enough "real world" things to make us believe in the reality of the narrative. But if you look at the hard questions the existance of wizards raises, the believability disappears. So she keeps their world separate as much as possible. She underscores her strategy of believability by trying to bring in certain points of hard fact, like having Harry born in a particular year, etc. But she tries to avoid talking much about the interface because then all sorts of problems arise. If the WW and the Muggle World were to meet, all that would be blown out of the water. Say they were to meet at the end of the series, in Harry's seventh year. That would be 1997-1998. Well, obviously no such happened, so believability would go out the door. Even if she projected the meeting into the future, say in 2010, I think it would raise more questions than she wants to deal with. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 10 04:29:14 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:29:14 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant9998" wrote: > > lupinlore" Wrote: > > > I maintain that if JKR lets this > > drop it will be a major > > failure on her part. > > After all the hell Harry went through last year the little > unpleasantness in the detention class must seem like a very small > thing to him, Being forced to carve a blatant lie into your flesh again and again? I see that as more than "a little unpleasantness". and with Voldemort back I imagine the adults will be far > too busy trying to stay alive to worry about it much. Umbridge has > lost her job and been disgraced, she's yesterday's news, I don't see > why Rowling needs to ever mention her name again. Harry may well be > suffering from post traumatic shock syndrome by now, but it won't be > because of Umbridge's detention. Oh, probably not PTSD, to be sure. However, once again, I maintain that if this is not brought up and tied off, and if the adults are not made aware of their own failures in this instance, JKR will have failed very badly as a writer. Lupinlore From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 04:57:00 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:57:00 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125836 GEO wrote: I disagree, this is the same person who killed his own father and muggle grandparents with little or no remorse. The reason that he was less than willing to kill her probably stems from the same reason that the Potters and Longbottoms survived three encounters with the Dark Lord as for the actual reason: no one has managed to formulate a reason that actually makes sense and the old Voldemort is related to Lily theory has been retread several times. vmonte responds: I think that someone warned Voldemort that Lily probably did something to protect herself and the baby. This person told Voldemort to not attack Lily and to go directly after Harry. Voldemort being the arrogant idiot that he is decides that Lily is just a "silly girl" after all and disregards the warning. This person is probably Snape. About Harry's eyes and physical appearance: What if Harry sees/recognizes himself (as a seventeen-year-old teenager) in someone elses penseive memory. And what if that memory belongs to his mother? He may realize that what he has to do is go back to the past to fullfill some role he played there. When he does go back he will be mistaken for James by the DEs, but found out by Snape because he has his mother's eyes. Vivian From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 10 06:18:55 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:18:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Minerva McGonagall Message-ID: <20050310061855.85697.qmail@web25101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125837 Minerva McGonagall is like the Virgin in "The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross." In the latter she conducts the weighing of the candidates to determine their virtuousness. In Harry Potter McGonagall gives the first years the sorting hat to see what house they go into. In the "Alchemical Wedding" the Virgin is called Alchimia. By the way, the book doesn't tell you that explicitly. You have to work out a puzzle that is very similar to the type Jo loves, for example in book 1. It is obvious from reading "The Alchemical Wedding" that Alchimia symbolises the force that transfigures the apprentice alchemist. Now we know why McGonagall is Transfiguration teacher! It all fits, doesn't it? If you haven't read "The Alchemical Wedding" could I suggest you do so now, as the parallels between that and Harry Potter are absolutely striking! It's on http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com/articles/wedding1.php. You can read the whole thing in under an hour. The text contains illustrations. There's not much to add about dear Minerva. I guess you all know Minerva was the Roman goddess of wisdom. Just as Alchimia works as a sort of chief assistant to the old chap on the tower, so Minerva is Deputy Headmistress to Dumbledore, the old chap in the tower. I think that at the end of the series she'll help Harry somehow with his final trials, just as Alchimia does to Christian Rosycross. In fact she is the one who chooses him as one of the select to bring back to life the new king and queen on the eighth floor of the Tower of Olympus. As I've stated before, the eighth floor is a secret floor which symbolises the Gate of Saturn. Just as Minerva helped Harry against the evil intentions of Umbridge ('I will assist you to become an Auror if it is the last thing I do! If I have to coach you nightly, I will make sure you achieve the required results!') so perhaps she'll make sure he can pass through the archway with the veil. You tell 'em, Minerva!! "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 06:59:40 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:59:40 -0000 Subject: It's Libatius (Was: News Flash! HBP covers released!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125838 Lawless wrote: > > Actually, now that I really look at it, it seems to be Libatius > Borage. What I thought was an "l" actually has a little cross for a > "t" and I'm still sure that it is an "e" at the end. > > Does anyone have any info on the names Libatius or Borage? Carol notes: There's a whole thread (or maybe more than one) on the subject over at OT Chatter. Borage, it appears, is a plant used in wine to create a calming effect; Libatius, as other posters have noted, relates to "libation," which can mean a drink, usually wine, spilled on the ground in honor of the gods (or a king), or to the wine itself. Maybe Libatius became "libatious" from drinking too much borage wine? At any rate, it's the kind of joke JKR usually makes in creating imaginary authors for her textbooks. Anyway, the larger scans clearly show that it's Libatius, not Libalius or Liberius. No connection, probably, with the HBP, but the fact that a potions text is shown is a pretty good indication that Harry is in NEWT Potions and is finally recognizing the importance of the Potions Master's subject. Carol, who really hopes we'll see HRH, Draco, and Theo together in *Snape's* NEWT Potions class. It won't as much fun (for the reader) if anyone else teaches it. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Mar 10 07:47:31 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:47:31 -0000 Subject: Adult editions (was Re: News Flash! HBP covers released!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pengolodh_sc" wrote: Christian Stub? > The current set of adult covers for the first four books is a new > set, replaceing the original one - the intent is to better match the > style of the adult cover for OotP. The original adult covers were > somewhat moody in style. For PS it had a head-on b&w photo of a > dark steam-locomotive with an impressive plume of smoke; for CoS a > photo of a light-coloured Ford Anglia edited into a picture of > clouds; for PoA a realistic photo of a hippogriff flying (well, > photoedit, really); and for GoF a Chinese (or inspired by Chinese > art) drawing of a dragon. Geoff: Having just looked at the URL given above for the first three covers, I would make two observations. (1) I have **never** seen HP editions with these covers on sale in the UK. It is the first time I have clapped eyes on them. (2) I'm surprised that they were suggested for UK editions because, being a railfan and being picky, why would they use an American locomotive for a British edition? From punkieshazam at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 07:56:13 2005 From: punkieshazam at yahoo.com (punkieshazam) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:56:13 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125840 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > > > > Hannah originally: Explain to me why they *wouldn't* feature > something > > > from a flashback scene and make it the cover of the HBP book. > > > > GEO: Judging by the previous flashback scenes possibly because of > > the total lack of relevance. A advanced potions making text that > > appears to be for the students appearing briefly in a flashback > and > > is probably not going to drive the plot further is not going to > > appear on the cover of the books. > > Hannah: Lack of relevance? Well, the front cover of UK PS shows > the Hogwarts express - not the most vital plot element in that book, > and that of UK CoS shows the flying car - again, not terribly > relevant to the ultimate plot, though great fun. >snip< Punkie: It is my impression that Mary GrandPre is the only artist that has read any of the books at the time that they were contracted to draw the covers. Has that policy changed for the Brits? Does anyone know the answer to this? I've read the links to interviews on TLC and Mugglenet and nowhere is this discussed. The Potions cover may be similar to the catalogue blurb. Just made up by the photographer who took the picture. Punkie who is as clueless as ever. From punkieshazam at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 08:26:26 2005 From: punkieshazam at yahoo.com (punkieshazam) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:26:26 -0000 Subject: Pensieves, Potions, and Peril: The HBP Covers In-Reply-To: <016b01c524c1$70f4b2e0$0100000a@Imma> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shunra Shunrata" wrote: > > Arcum wrote: > | And for the truly obsessive... why is Harry holding his wand in > | his *left* hand in front of the pensieve/potion/artifact, when > | he is, in fact, right handed? > > I've obsessed about this a few times already, this is now the third time in > a row Harry is holding his wand in his left hand on the (Scholastic) cover. > > Ideas? > > Shunra Punkie: I too have wondered about this. My assumption is that Mary GrandPre is left handed. I've noticed that a lot of comics artists portray their characters as left handed. So I assumed they were too. Punkie From Snarryfan at aol.com Thu Mar 10 09:15:04 2005 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:15:04 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Remus! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125842 Today, 10 March, is Remus' birthday. It make him a Pisces. Christelle From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Mar 10 09:26:26 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:26:26 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: News Flash! HBP covers released! Message-ID: <8c.227c5bc7.2f616cc2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125843 In a message dated 3/9/2005 11:16:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net writes: Several listees have suggested that the (potential) Pensieve on the US cover isn't quite the correct size or shape as the Pensieve we've seen/had described previously. Might I suggest it's just a little artistic license in action? :-) ------------- Sherrie here: Like her bald Snape with goatee illustrations? Personally, I dislike the illustrations - one reason why I prefer the UK editions. Sherrie "My best friend is the man who'll give me a book I ain't read." - A. Lincoln [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 10 12:51:29 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:51:29 -0000 Subject: Adult editions (was Re: News Flash! HBP covers released!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125844 > Christian Stub? > > The current set of adult covers for the first four books is a new set, replaceing the original one - the intent is to better match the style of the adult cover for OotP. The original adult covers were > > somewhat moody in style. For PS it had a head-on b&w photo of a > > dark steam-locomotive with an impressive plume of smoke; for CoS a photo of a light-coloured Ford Anglia edited into a picture of > > clouds; for PoA a realistic photo of a hippogriff flying (well, > > photoedit, really); and for GoF a Chinese (or inspired by Chinese art) drawing of a dragon. > > Geoff: > Having just looked at the URL given above for the first three covers, > I would make two observations. > > (1) I have **never** seen HP editions with these covers on sale in > the UK. It is the first time I have clapped eyes on them. > > (2) I'm surprised that they were suggested for UK editions because, being a railfan and being picky, why would they use an American locomotive for a British edition? Hannah: Oh, I've seen them on sale here in the UK (can't comment on the train type, but I do remember a UK adult ed with a train on it)! So when I posted initially saying that there was a train on PS and a car on CoS, I was right! I also remember the PoA and GoF covers now that they've been described. So my argument of goodness knows how many posts ago *was* valid, and I haven't been hallucinating (sighs with relief). When I went onto Amazon and saw the new versions of the covers I thought I was going mad. So adult editions do use images that don't necessarily move the plot along a great deal. That means the advanced potions book could still be from a pensieve scene. It's interesting that the newer adult covers seem to be choosing images that sum up the plot, or as someone else pointed out, appear in the title. The PoA cover shows an island with a castle/tower on it (presumably Azkaban), and we never even *see* Azkaban in the book. While I'm sure we'll actually encounter the Advanced Potions book in HBP, the theory that it relates directly to the title makes more sense. Perhaps it's not an actual potion in the book, but a piece of information in it about the HBP, or a letter tucked inside it, or even notes written in it. Though I still like the idea that it has an immortality potion in that is central to LV's quest for immortality and plays a part in the plot. It's amazing how much speculation can be achieved from just three images. :-) Hannah From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Mar 10 12:51:03 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:51:03 -0000 Subject: A good narrative strategy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > > > > Alla: > > > > I think this is one of the simplest and the best explanations of > > the split of muggle and magical worlds I have ever read. > > > > I am still wondering though why JKR specifically pointed out that > > the two worlds will not mesh at the end of the story. You know, > > theoretically, when story is done, she can briefly explore the > > good things which could come out of the fact that Wizards will > > make themselves known to the muggles and not to deal with > > possible messy issues. > > > > Do you think it would still compromise the narrative if two > > worlds were to meet at the end? Lupinlore: > It would in a sense. JKR has tried to create a world, the WW, that > you can believe exists "in parallel" with ours. It is a tough > balance, because she has to refer to enough "real world" things to > make us believe in the reality of the narrative. But if you look at > the hard questions the existance of wizards raises, the > believability disappears. So she keeps their world separate as > much as possible. She underscores her strategy of believability by > trying to bring in certain points of hard fact, like having Harry > year, etc. But she tries to avoid talking much about the interface > born in a particular because then all sorts of problems arise. > If the WW and the Muggle World were to meet, all that would be blown > out of the water. Say they were to meet at the end of the series, > in Harry's seventh year. That would be 1997-1998. Well, obviously > no such happened, so believability would go out the door. Even if > she projected the meeting into the future, say in 2010, I think it > would raise more questions than she wants to deal with. Geoff: I think this depends on whether you are prepared to participate in the "willing suspension of disbelief". For many years, I have been a fan of Star Trek. Nowadays, I am slightly amused when I look back at the original series and in the episode "Space Seed", we meet Kahn Noonien Singh (later seen again in "The Wrath of Kahn" film) who rose to power and was involved in the Eugenics Wars from 1992 onwards. Some of the UK posters may know of the comic strip sci-fi character Dan Dare who appeared first in the "Eagle" comic in 1950. In that story, there was a world government on Earth from 1965 and explorers were engaging with the inhabitants of Venus in 1998. But we didn't have an Asian superhuman leader in 1992 - we didn't have people on Venus in 1998. It doesn't bother me. I can pick out a book from my shelves which has facsimile pages of the Dan Dare stories and still enjoy them. I can be lost in the world of Star Trek in the 24th century and still accept the Eugenics Wars because I allow myself to be absorbed into this particular world. I can go to Middle Earth, set in a long gone time on Earth without being troubled by "this isn't real" considerations. I can vicariously share with Harry and Frodo and co. because their worlds are so structured that, while I am within the pages, I am part of those events. It's a bit like going on holiday to a different country. When you return, you know that life continues out there but what you did on your visit doesn't interact with the daily routines at home. Eavesdropping on the activities of Hogwarts is more entertaining than going to the shops, washing the car or mowing the lawn....... From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 10 13:03:50 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:03:50 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125846 > Punkie wrote: > > It is my impression that Mary GrandPre is the only artist that has > read any of the books at the time that they were contracted to draw the covers. Has that policy changed for the Brits? Does anyone know the answer to this? I've read the links to interviews on TLC and Mugglenet and nowhere is this discussed. > The Potions cover may be similar to the catalogue blurb. Just made up by the photographer who took the picture. Hannah now: Well, since they let Mary Grand Pre read the book in order to design her cover, I'm sure they let the other cover illustrators do the same. Or at least read parts of it (the UK editions don't have individual pictures for each chapter, so maybe the cover artists don't have to be given the whole book). The cover art for PS, CoS, PoA, GoF and OotP all come from more than just a clever guess; they couldn't have been drawn without the artist having read at least the scenes they'd depicted. Plus that title sounds like pure JKR. The catologue blurb is one thing, as it's not officially linked to the books (I think). The cover of the book itself is a different matter. They're not going to put out what will undoubtably be the biggest bestseller of the year in a cover that doesn't have anything to do with the content (however small or large the role of the book in the plot), especially given how we fans seize on every detail like this! Hannah, who is equally clueless, but this is what she guesses! From chrissilein at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 16:22:34 2005 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (LadyOfThePensieve) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:22:34 -0000 Subject: What is the Half-Blood Prince? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125847 Hi everybody maybe you wonder why I wrote what instead of who? Right now I?m reckon we are totally wrong if we think the Half-Blood Prince could be a person! Because of the adult cover of book 6 (Advanced Potion-Making) I remembered Snape?s riddle in book 1. Harry?s challange was to find the right potion to come to through black flames to the Philosopher?s Stone. I guess it was a clue for book 6! No I honestly started to think the Half-Blood Prince is a POTION! Here in Europe we have got the funny tradition to give alcoholic drinks funny names. For example: a very popular bitters is called "J?germeister" (Master of Hunting). It?s no person, but a bitters! Another drink is called "Kleiner Feigling" (Little Coward). Indeed no person, but a form of schnapps. Well, just an idea JKR try to fool us totally. Everybody maybe believes the Half-Blood Prince is a guy, but it?s a potion. :hyper Your views, please. Greetings From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Thu Mar 10 16:53:45 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:53:45 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125848 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > > GEO: Voldemort himself said that he wanted to share in the > protection that Lily gave to Harry during the graveyard scene in GoF > so he didn't destroy the protection that Lily gave to Harry as even > he himself acknowledges. > > "... if I was to rise again, more powerful than I had been when I > had fallen. I wanted Harry Potters blood. I wanted the blood of the > one who had stripped me of power thirteen years ago for the > lingering protection his mother once gave him would then reside in > my veins too." Max replies: This statement doesn't necessarily show that Voldemort believes he will be protected by Lily's blood now. I seriously doubt that protective magic can be transferred to another simply by taking a bit of someone's blood. Imo, V is simply stating that his ownership of the lingering spell in his veins will nullify Harry's protection. In his mind, he is now free to kill Harry. From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 16:55:16 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:55:16 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125849 "lupinlore" wrote: > Being forced to carve a blatant lie > into your flesh again and again? I see that as more than "a little > unpleasantness". I think The Quill is terrible too, however I am not Harry, I have been fortunate enough not to have seen a classmate, my mother, my father and my godfather murdered before my eyes, and I have not been hung upside down and stung by a spider the size of a small elephant, and I have not been tied to a tombstone and tortured so horribly I wished for nothing but death. If I had been subjected to even one of those things I think my perspective on what was bad and what was REALLY bad would be somewhat different. Umbridge's quill is small potatoes compared to many other horrors in Harry's life. > However, once again, I maintain that > if this is not brought up and tied off, > and if the adults are not made aware of > their own failures in this > instance, JKR will have failed very badly > as a writer. I don't see why, Harry has already lost whatever trust he ever had in the adult world, more particularly he has lost his affection for Albus Dumbledore and for reasons far more profound than detention class. Dumbledore was quite correct when he said it his fault his beloved godfather is dead. There are many things the Wizarding World needs to apologize to Harry for, but The Quill is only number 422. Eggplant From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 17:19:38 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:19:38 -0000 Subject: Bloomsbury tells name on Potion Book Cover Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125850 I wrote to Bloomsbury and to my surprise they answered! Here it is: "Many thanks for contacting us. The author's name is Libatius Borage; hope that clears everything up for you. Best wishes, Bloomsbury.com Customer Services" www.bloomsbury.com So I was wrong. And if anyone had bets on the *l* or *t* here is the answer. Tonks_op From flamingstarchows at att.net Thu Mar 10 18:41:43 2005 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (texaschow) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:41:43 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125851 > > Punkie wrote: > > It is my impression that Mary GrandPre is the only artist that has > > read any of the books at the time that they were contracted to > draw the covers. Has that policy changed for the Brits? > > Hannah now: Well, since they let Mary Grand Pre read the book in > order to design her cover, I'm sure they let the other cover > illustrators do the same. Or at least read parts of it (the UK > editions don't have individual pictures for each chapter, so maybe > the cover artists don't have to be given the whole book). The cover > art for PS, CoS, PoA, GoF and OotP all come from more than just a > clever guess; they couldn't have been drawn without the artist > having read at least the scenes they'd depicted. > Hannah, who is equally clueless, but this is what she guesses! ~Cathy~ now: Actually, they were very specific when the last book was released that Mary Grand Pre is the *only* artist allowed to read the books. She does chapter illustrations as well as the cover art and that was part of her original contract (and still is). They said last time that the publisher gives the UK artists an idea of what they want on the cover. From stonehenge.orders at verizon.net Thu Mar 10 19:05:21 2005 From: stonehenge.orders at verizon.net (kjirstem) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:05:21 -0000 Subject: Green light/smoke speculation - not the cover though Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125852 Speculation about the greenish light on the Scholastic cover for HBP has reminded me of a nagging question I've had for some time. When Harry's Gringotts vault is first opened a lot of green smoke billows out. There is no mention of a similar effect with the vault the Stone was in. This seems strange to me and I've wondered if it was significant at all, perhaps associated with the events at Godric's Hollow. I've just posted about this OT Chatter too but have come to believe that any discussion about it on-list has been in the distant past, so I'm bringing it up here. If anyone has the whereabouts of previous discussion, please let me know. In any case, I don't have anything that I'd call a theory about the green smoke, but a few things have occurred to me: 1. Somehow it is associated with the AK curses and/or destruction of the Potter's home, 2. It is some Gringotts enchantment, for security? And 3. Somehow the coins weren't in the vault until the door was opened and the smoke is an effect of whatever means by which they appeared. I guess 2 and 3 could be related, but I've always leaned towards 1 anyway. The thing is, how could there still be green smoke in the vault after so much time? I suppose the green smoke probably means nothing but it has been niggling at me for some time and I wondered if anyone else had thoughts about it. kjirstem From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 10 17:55:31 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:55:31 -0000 Subject: Fred and George--Prefects? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125853 As I continue my rereading of OOTP, I noticed something germane to this issue in the infamous letter from Percy to Ron (OOTP, 14/296, US ed.). There Percy congratulates Ron for becoming a Prefect and says he was afraid that Ron would take the "Fred and George" route rather than follow in Percy's footsteps. "You have stopped flouting authority and have decided to shoulder some real responsibility." That means that even when he was the Head Boy at Hogwarts he did not know anything about any "secret Prefects" and did not see anything in Fred and George's behavior that would suggest leadership or taking any responsibility. Richard Jones From northsouth17 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 08:04:15 2005 From: northsouth17 at yahoo.com (northsouth17) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:04:15 -0000 Subject: A good narrative strategy (was Re: All the World's Problems; ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125854 > > Alla: > > Do you think it would still compromise the narrative if two worlds > > were to meet at the end? > > Yes, I do. I don't think it's possible to explore just the good things. There is far too much negative baggage, (racism and elitism) just inherent in the muggle/wizard split. Blowing open the whole dynamic would IMO destroy the concept of the WW as Harry sees it - infinitely better than the Muggle World. Northsouth From valy1x2 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 10 16:39:10 2005 From: valy1x2 at hotmail.com (Valy) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:39:10 +0100 Subject: What is the role of the HBP? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125855 Hi! Well, first, I dont know if this have been discussed before, but if the HBP is a person, what's this person's role in the story?? I have one another wacko theory which nobody will be interessed in, as usual. (j/k) What if the HBP was a person representating... uhm. Let me concentrate, it's difficult to say... A person representating the muggle and wizarding world into one? The muggle/wizard thing is huge in the books, we know those two worlds will not rejoin again, but I find interessing the HBP may be like an embassador that "Muggles, muggleborns and half-bloods" arent inferiors to wizards. This is hard to explain, but since it was mentionned in the books that something should be done for muggles protections and stuff... My personal belief is that even the purest pure blood families came from muggles. Complicated, I know. Okay, laugh at me, this is the fault of my liberal and peace-loving mind where everybody is beautiful, everybody is nice. :-P Because honestly, I think JKR tries to make us see that wizards, even the nice ones like Arthur Weasley, think the muggles are inferiors, sort of retarded, etc. "Half-Blood"... Where's the human in this? Valy. From librarybookgrl at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 03:58:39 2005 From: librarybookgrl at yahoo.com (librarybookgrl) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 03:58:39 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125856 > Antosha: > Well, I actually rather like this theory, but one problem with > it does occur to me: if LV is a cousin of Lily's, than why would > living with Lily's blood relations protect Harry from him? > And why would getting an infusion of Harry's blood make any > difference? Well, couldn't Harry being distantly related have something to do with not being able to slay your own blood kin? Then he would be protected where Lily's blood dwells. Wouldn't Voldemort have made a mistake to get the infusion of Harry's blood, possibly linked with his own blood through Lily? Could Dumbledore's triumphant eye-gleam upon hearing this be because he knew that Voldemoert had inadvertently done this? I think I like this theory; it would make a lot of things make sense. -Librarybookgrl From sally_waddle at hotmail.com Thu Mar 10 04:29:56 2005 From: sally_waddle at hotmail.com (frnsic1) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:29:56 -0000 Subject: Voldemort antibodies / blood protection (was Re: Lily's physical description ... (or, Voldemort antibodies)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125857 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > GEO: Voldemort didn't destroy the blood protection that was placed > on Harry by Lily's sacrifice, the ritual that he took part in GoF > allowed him to share in that protection, which then nixes your > theory that Voldy is part Evans. As for his survival, I think > Voldemort himself has some sort of blood protection akin to that of > Harry's placed on him by his own dying mother. frnsic now: We know that Voldemort's witch mother died giving birth to him (therefore, died so that he could live). This could be Voldemort's blood protection, but I doubt it, because Dumbledore (and Voldemort himself) told Harry that he despised of and had forgotten about this ancient form of magic. Is it likely he would despise of or forget about something that could help or protect him? Do we know the "rules" governing blood protections? What I recall is simply that Harry's mother died to save her son, trying to protect him; therefore, that protection lingers in his veins (I've always envisioned this as some sort of Voldemort antibody). Voldemort's mother was not trying to protect him, but DID die so that he could live. Does this count? If so, who would the protection be AGAINST??? From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 20:07:42 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:07:42 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125858 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" wrote: > > "... if I was to rise again, more powerful than I had been when I > > had fallen. I wanted Harry Potters blood. I wanted the blood of the > > one who had stripped me of power thirteen years ago for the > > lingering protection his mother once gave him would then reside in > > my veins too." > > Max replies: > > This statement doesn't necessarily show that Voldemort believes he > will be protected by Lily's blood now. GEO: Really? I for one certainly think it does show that Voldemort would get that additional benefit. He says it himself that the protection would then reside within his veins. I seriously doubt that > protective magic can be transferred to another simply by taking a bit > of someone's blood. GEO: And how can you say whether that is possible or impossible? It's really Rowling's world and whatever her characters say in terms of exposition is probably true. Besides it's magic almost anything is possible considering the rules governing it are more murky. > Imo, V is simply stating that his ownership of the > lingering spell in his veins will nullify Harry's protection. In his > mind, he is now free to kill Harry. GEO: No thats not what he says. He says he shares in the protection, but if the protection was truly nullified then why does Dumbledore decide to send him back to Privet Drive and the Dursleys at the end of GoF. From dumbledoreindistress at yahoo.com.au Thu Mar 10 09:31:22 2005 From: dumbledoreindistress at yahoo.com.au (dumbledoreindistress) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:31:22 -0000 Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125859 > SSSusan: > I like this possibility, Meltowne -- that DD is either showing > Harry how to access his own memory *or* that DD "extracted" the > memory from Harry when he was a baby and stored it himself and > is now going to show it to him. Granted, Harry still has > auditory memory of the attack, but nothing visual. Maybe DD > took it out & stored it so Harry wouldn't have to grow up > replaying it?? Does not Harry, in reference to the events at GH, recall a flash of green light, followed by a "searing pain" in his forehead? This would seem to suggest that he does indeed have SOME visual recollection of those events. MAYBE "the memory" is VOLDEMORT'S, broadcast on voldy-vision for Harry's viewing pleasure, THEN "extracted" by Dumbledore (in book six, some fifteen years after the event) and transferred to the pensieve for more exhaustive analysis. Could this ability of Harry's, to obtain access not only to Voldy's THOUGHTS (granted, only under certain conditions), but now also his (and Tom Riddle's??) MEMORIES, be another bi-product of their deepening kinship?? A form of legili-thingy, as it were? Jeremy, aware of the fact that he is writing in the same manner that OOTP's capslock!Harry spoke, and heartily apologizing to all concerned. From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 10 20:19:02 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:19:02 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant9998" wrote: > > > I don't see why, Harry has already lost whatever trust he ever had in > the adult world, more particularly he has lost his affection for Albus > Dumbledore and for reasons far more profound than detention class. > Dumbledore was quite correct when he said it his fault his beloved > godfather is dead. There are many things the Wizarding World needs to > apologize to Harry for, but The Quill is only number 422. > > Eggplant Well, I can certainly agree with that. Unfortunately, I really don't think that is the line the narrative is going to take. To wit, I think we will see most of these things swept quite neatly under the rug and none of the emotional/ethical/moral issues you raise here explored. In that sense, the issue of the quill is simply symbolic of a lot of other issues. I dwell on the issue of the quill merely because it is a concrete instance that is well-encapsulated and easily grasped, and one for which there is a physical manifestation in Harry's scars, however faint they may be. If JKR can't or won't deal with that relatively simple issue then how can she hope to deal with the larger and vaguer implications of Harry's relationship to the Wizarding World? Indeed, I rather fear, given JKR's interview about Harry "mastering his own feelings," that far from the people around Harry being faced with their own serious failings, it is going to be Harry who is going to have the moral burden placed on his shoulders. The multiple issues you raise will simply be dropped and not addressed. Harry will forgive DD relatively easily and resume his trust in all the other adults with nary a ripple. That would be a very foul turn, and not one to JKR's credit as an author, but one I sense coming, unfortunately. Lupinlore From juigikario at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 05:19:34 2005 From: juigikario at yahoo.com (juigikario) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 05:19:34 -0000 Subject: PoU and Voldemort's fate In-Reply-To: <8p42mt+g8k3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125861 Steve Bates wrote in this message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/1039 > It has been stated, implicitly and explicitly, > that Voldy has become something other than a physical human and > cannot be killed. So if Voldy is killed, it will be no more than > a half-victory--Voldy will be no more defeated at the end of the > series than he was at the beginning. So if you can kill Voldy's > body but not his spirit, you'd need something that can destroy his > spirit as well. > And, of course, JKR has already introduced something that can > destroy a spirit, or "soul": a dementor. Might it turn out that > the only way to permanently get rid of Voldy is to have a dementor > kiss him? If so, how to turn the dementors against Voldy? Dementor option would be out of the question; Voldemort is the Dementors' ally. Frankly, I think Tom Riddle (NOT Voldemort) will somehow manage redemption, which is likely one of Dumbledore's goals. It would certainly get Voldemort taken down for good in the process. "juigikario" From timregan at microsoft.com Thu Mar 10 20:40:40 2005 From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:40:40 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125862 Hi All, Great thread, well done Debbie for kicking it off with such painstakingly good piece of list research. Let me kick off with what I actually believe. Lupinlore wrote: >>> JKR doesn't explore these questions and I, who am usually very hard on the author, really don't blame her <<< I agree with this. For me JKR seems to clearly stand against class systems and shows this loudly and explicitly through her portrayal of pure-bloods and through Dumbledore's pronouncements. But she is not a consciously political writer and so the books are not didactic and the political philosophy within them is far from consistent. The portrayal of middle-class suburbia may well be JKR's prejudice finding voice in the books. The portrayal of Hogwarts seems to be a current cultural prejudice creeping in (a conservative belief that the old days were better). Finally I think we see class prejudice creep in from JKR's precedents, the other authors and myths she borrows from carry their own prejudices. But here's what I do not get about the class system in the wizarding world: why aren't Muggles enslaved? Tammy wrote: >>> Muggles through the ages have proven that they just can't handle their beliefs being challenged and changed. Would muggles eventually come to understand it? <<< But I'd like to look at the other side ? would wizards tolerate muggles. Ellyddan wrote >>> Powerful wizards like the Malfoys wouldn't hesitate to use their powers to manipulate, overpower and subvert the muggle world to their own whims if both worlds were united <<< Exactly. Wizards and Muggles are both humans, and history teaches us that when one group of humans have a large, tangible, and lasting superiority over other humans they exploit it to subjugate them. And yet muggle society is not totally beholden to the wizarding world. Vernon can run a factory making drills, an artefact of little or no use to wizards. Why? Why aren't Vernon and all other muggles enslaved and carrying out whatever menial tasks wizards do not want to do for themselves? Further, if muggles have no value to wizards why put up with them at all? History didn't put up with Neanderthals for long after we arrived. Perhaps Hagrid would hang on to a few Muggles, running naked through the forest, but other that that the only reason for them to keep us on is if we are useful. But maybe our strength is in our numbers. As Ffred said "Muggles are correctly identified by the WW as a threat". Maybe there is something in the distribution of magic through the human population that prevents wizards' numbers swelling to match numbers of muggles. We've repeatedly seen through history small minorities of humans wielding power over vast majorities. The way they do it is a class or a caste system. But we do not see that played out in the books, the muggle world is left largely untouched, but with a few isolated acts of violence. To me this seems implausible. But don't be glum, in the final analysis muggles are vastly superior to wizards: we exist, and one of us invented all of them ;-) Cheers, Dumbledad. PS Quick aside: a_svirn wrote: >>> After all most of us can't help but identify with Muggles ? a fact that makes muggle/wizard relationship far more interesting <<< This is true of many or most adult readers but is it true of kids? I think not, and after all, these are kids' books. From n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 21:16:50 2005 From: n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com (n_longbottom01) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:16:50 -0000 Subject: Umbridge anagram a clue? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125863 I came across this anagram of Umbridge's name at mugglenet: Dolores Jane Umbridge = Dumbledore goes in jar. The author of that page at mugglenet brought up Rita Skeeter and how she ended up in a jar at the end of GoF. But the jar that came to mind when I read "Dumbledore goes in jar" is the bell jar in the Time room in the Department of Mysteries. You know the one I'm talking about... the one with the bird/egg in it? During the battle in the Department of Mysteries, when the Death Eater's head went into the jar, he became a baby-headed Death Eater. If a person entirely went into the jar, I suspect the result would be to change that person's age (either older or younger). Will we see Dumbledore enter into the jar to become young? n_longbottom01 From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 10 22:21:31 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:21:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Dobby Message-ID: <20050310222131.42831.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125864 Dobby personifies the etheric body of the apprentice alchemist. Just to give you some background information: The personality of the human being consists of seven bodies or vehicles. 1. The physical body 2. The etheric or vital body 3. The astral or desire body 4. The mental body 5. The mental-I 6. The emotional-I 7. The consciousness-I. Each body operates on a corresponding plane. The candidate for liberation has to cut the chains that ties him to each of the planes. In book 2 Harry symbolically cuts the second chain. In normal circumstances the etheric body is fettered to the physical body in six places: one in the head, one in the heart, two in the palms and two in the feet. In the New Testament these are symbolised by the crown of thorns on the head of Jesus, the spear wound in his side, and the nails through his hands and feet. In the Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross, etheric liberation takes place on the second floor (the one above the ground floor). This is how it is described: "This room was the whole breadth of the Tower itself, having six very stately vestries raised a little above the room, and were entered by an ascent of three steps. In these vestries we were placed, there to pray for the life of the King and Queen." In Harry Potter the etheric body is symbolised by a house elf called Dobby. House elves are bound to their master by magic, and the spell can be broken only by the owner giving the elf clothes. Harry gives Dobby's owner Lucius Malfoy a book wrapped up in a sock. Without thinking, Malfoy gives the sock to Dobby, thereby breaking the spell of enslavement. In actual fact the etheric body is a kind of slave of the physical body, because it has to follow it everywhere and serve it day and night. This is because the etheric body is what gives life to the physical body. Without it, the physical body would die. However when the alchemist has reached the stage symbolised by the second floor of the Tower of Olympus, his etheric body is filled with the forces of Liberation, the four ethers from the Sixth Cosmic Plane. These are called "the Four Holy Foods". This means he becomes fully aware within his etheric body and can consciously control and direct it. It is no longer a slave of the physical body. It begins to radiate a glorious golden light and forms part of what is traditionally called, "The Golden Wedding Vesture". It becomes extremely helpful to the alchemist in the further alchemical processes. As we know, Dobby is very helpful to Harry. In book 4 he helps Harry with the second task, and in book 5 he shows Harry how to find the Room of Requirement. I'm sure he will be very helpful also in the next two books, and I suspect that Dobby will accompany Harry on his last journey in book 7. I have the strongest suspicion that an alchemical wedding will take place in book 7, involving Harry, Hermione, Ron, Snape and Lupin, and that Dobby will play some sort of role in this. Good old Dobby! "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 10 22:28:43 2005 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:28:43 -0000 Subject: PoU and Voldemort's fate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "juigikario" wrote: > > Steve Bates wrote in this message: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/1039 > > It has been stated, implicitly and explicitly, > > that Voldy has become something other than a physical human and > > cannot be killed. So if Voldy is killed, it will be no more than > > a half-victory--Voldy will be no more defeated at the end of the > > series than he was at the beginning. So if you can kill Voldy's > > body but not his spirit, you'd need something that can destroy his > > spirit as well. > > And, of course, JKR has already introduced something that can > > destroy a spirit, or "soul": a dementor. Might it turn out that > > the only way to permanently get rid of Voldy is to have a dementor > > kiss him? If so, how to turn the dementors against Voldy? > > > Dementor option would be out of the question; Voldemort is the > Dementors' ally. > > Frankly, I think Tom Riddle (NOT Voldemort) will somehow manage > redemption, which is likely one of Dumbledore's goals. It would > certainly get Voldemort taken down for good in the process. > > "juigikario" Actually, it would not take down Voldemort for good. There is no guarantee that Tom Riddle would not make the exact same choices he did the first time given a second chance. There is also no guarantee that if you removed/destroyed the evil that is Voldemort that it could not manifest itself somewhere else. Ions ago this topic went round and round. Redeemed!Tom Riddle annoys me. Too tidy, too neat. Life is not like that and no one would ever be able to forgive the things he has done anyway. Unless of course the clock is literally turned back to TR's infancy and everything is done differently. Which, again, is no guarantee he won't be just as naughty. Sue(hpfan) wandering out of the broom closet for a few seconds. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 23:19:21 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:19:21 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125866 >>a_svirn: >I was merely pointing out that wizards can CHOOSE to be charitable and leave Muggles alone, or CHOOSE to be less charitable and indulge in muggle-hunting. Muggles can only hope that they won't be singled out for wizarding entertainment, because there is nothing whatsoever that they can do to prevent it. That makes them inferior.< Betsy: This brings up a question I've been pondering on and off for a while now: If the Wizarding World and the Muggle World got in a fight, who would win? The thing is, JKR has already answered this question. After all, the Muggles beat the Wizards several centuries ago. Why would today be any different? So maybe, wizards aren't all that superior after all. And maybe their condescension towards Muggles hides a deeper fear. After all, wizards were beaten by Muggles back when they were still relatively informed of Muggle weapons and fighting tactics. Muggles have a come a long, long way on both counts, and wizards barely know how the Muggle world works now. >>a_svirn: >As far as I remember from Harry's essay, witches were actually in no danger from Muggles. They only needed to perform necessary charm and enjoy nice "tickling sensation" instead of burning.< Betsy: But a people not facing certain danger do not go into such deep hiding they actually go to the trouble of concealing the existance of wild animals that might hint to their own existence. In FB&WTFT, N. Scamander refers to "the dark days that preceded the wizards retreat into hiding." And his footnote goes so far as to call it "this particularly bloody period of wizarding history." (p. xv) In fact, a footnote in "Quidditch Through the Ages" mentions that the 1692 International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy gave wizards the right to carry wands at all times, including the quidditch pitch. (p. 28) This right was given so that wizards could protect themselves from Muggle attacks and would be the equivilent of allowing basketball players to carry guns while on the court. Again, this suggests that wizards were living in extreme danger. >>Tammy: >Muggles could conceivably end up enslaving wizards.< >>a_svirn: >My imagination fails me there. Could you please elaborate?< Betsy: It would be relatively simple. "Mr. Weasley, we have your wife and children hidden in an undisclosed location. Here are their broken wands as proof. No harm will come to them if we have your support in ." That's a pretty dystopian view of things, yes. But it could happen. More realistically, I'm sure there'd be a lot of scientific study into the "wizard gene," and at the very least a certain amount of distrust would arise. I agree with what Jim Ferer wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125763 : >It won't be long before people believe that wizards are running things behind the scenes to suit themselves. It'll be a short step for some people from believing that the wizards could have prevented the tsunami to believing wizards **caused** the tsunami for some purpose of their own. We live in a conspiracy theory world. >Envy, resentment, and persecution are almost sure to follow if the wizard world reveals itself.< Betsy: For the most part, the Muggle world is fairly civilized and not as superstitious as it was back in the time of Wizard persecution. But we still loves us our conspiracy theories, as Jim points out, and I think the scientific efficiency the Muggle world has developed could be used to put a great hurting on the wizards of the world. Wizards are for the most part, amateurs at the game of war. Muggles have long since become quite professional. >>Dumbledad: (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125862) >Wizards and Muggles are both humans, and history teaches us that when one group of humans have a large, tangible, and lasting superiority over other humans they exploit it to subjugate them. And yet muggle society is not totally beholden to the wizarding world. >History didn't put up with Neanderthals. >We've repeatedly seen through history small minorities of humans wielding power over vast majorities. The way they do it is a class or a caste system. But we do not see that played out in the books, the muggle world is left largely untouched, but with a few isolated acts of violence. >To me this seems implausible.< Betsy: It's implausible only if you think that when it comes down to it, wizards are more powerful than Muggles. Everything JKR has written points to the opposite being true. Even the isolated acts of violence speak of a weaker group attacking a stronger. Honestly, if you put a Navy Seal up against an Auror, I think the Navy Seal would win. Once a wizard loses his wand, he's pretty helpless, and I don't think it would take much for the Navy Seal to disarm the wizard. I think the Wizarding world was in danger of going the way of the Neaderthals and that's why they went through the formidable task of completely hiding their existence from Muggles. All the talk of Muggles being weaker or in danger of becoming dependent on wizards are so much propaganda. In fact, I think the propaganda has been going on for so long, most wizards firmly believe it to be true. But their own history tells a different story. Betsy From rob at usdin.net Thu Mar 10 12:37:25 2005 From: rob at usdin.net (Rob Usdin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:37:25 -0500 Subject: Adult editions (was Re: News Flash! HBP covers released!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200503100736254.SM01068@NJPISRUSDIN> No: HPFGUIDX 125867 Geoff: >>>( 1) I have **never** seen HP editions with these covers on sale in the UK. It is the first time I have clapped eyes on them. <<< Maybe they are filed in the "Adult Fiction" section? Most of us head to the Children's section or the bestseller rack to find HP. >>> (2) I'm surprised that they were suggested for UK editions because, being a railfan and being picky, why would they use an American locomotive for a British edition? <<< Yep, a little nitpicky - but what comes to mind is pretty much "because it looked cooler and more attractive." Remember - this is marketing here, and nothing more. --*Rob From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 23:36:16 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:36:16 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125868 >>Lupinlore: >To wit, I think we will see most of these things swept quite neatly under the rug and none of the emotional/ethical/moral issues you raise here explored. >If JKR can't or won't deal with that relatively simple issue then how can she hope to deal with the larger and vaguer implications of Harry's relationship to the Wizarding World? >Harry will forgive DD relatively easily and resume his trust in all the other adults with nary a ripple. That would be a very foul turn, and not one to JKR's credit as an author, but one I sense coming, unfortunately.< Betsy: I'm curious as to where this fear comes from, Lupinlore. I've seen you raise this issue before, but I don't recall any examples being given of where JKR has failed to fully address Harry's emotional state in relation to the trials he's gone through. To my mind, JKR hasn't swept anything under the rug. Harry was haunted by Cedric's death throughout OotP. His disgust with the Dursleys rose to such a pitch he was ready to openly cut all ties with them and leave. Harry hasn't blown off the treatment he's received from Snape, and part of his hostility towards Umbridge was shaped by his being tricked by Crouch!Moody. I *do* think Harry and Dumbledore will reach a mutual agreement that allows them to work together (especially since the new covers came out) but I think this will *only* occur because Dumbledore will be completely honest with Harry, as he promised to be at the end of OotP. But I don't think this means Harry will easily forgive all the adults around him. And I don't think this means that his relationship with Dumbledore will be the same as it was in PS/SS. JKR hasn't taken the easy route before. Why would she do it now? Betsy From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 11 00:29:16 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:29:16 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > > Betsy: > I'm curious as to where this fear comes from, Lupinlore. I've seen > you raise this issue before, but I don't recall any examples being > given of where JKR has failed to fully address Harry's emotional > state in relation to the trials he's gone through. > > To my mind, JKR hasn't swept anything under the rug. Harry was > haunted by Cedric's death throughout OotP. His disgust with the > Dursleys rose to such a pitch he was ready to openly cut all ties > with them and leave. Harry hasn't blown off the treatment he's > received from Snape, and part of his hostility towards Umbridge was > shaped by his being tricked by Crouch!Moody. > > I *do* think Harry and Dumbledore will reach a mutual agreement that > allows them to work together (especially since the new covers came > out) but I think this will *only* occur because Dumbledore will be > completely honest with Harry, as he promised to be at the end of > OotP. But I don't think this means Harry will easily forgive all > the adults around him. And I don't think this means that his > relationship with Dumbledore will be the same as it was in PS/SS. > > JKR hasn't taken the easy route before. Why would she do it now? > > Betsy Well, I certainly hope you are correct, Betsy. And perhaps I am rather pessimistic because after waiting three years post-GoF I found OOTP to be a sloppy, half-baked mess that badly needed another six months of work followed by about three heavy sessions with the editor. But I suppose everybody is allowed one mess-up. Harry is allowed his mess-up year and JKR should be allowed her mess-up book. I'm also pessimistic because I've seen many series start out very strong and then descend into rambling, inconsistent, self-indulgent shambles. I call it a bad case of NOLOSAS (No Longer a Starving Artist Syndrome). Steven King's Dark Tower began with three wonderful books followed by a so-so book finishing with three intolerably self-absorbed, 800 page tomes of self-referential drek. The Wheel of Time had three good books before descending into an interminable seven volume marsh of inpenetrable and inconsistent plot twists. The Sword of Truth had a couple of good books then went off the edge in a like way. I hope that JKR recovers, but OOTP was too similar to the "off the precipice" books of other series for me to have a great deal of confidence. One good sign is the length of the book (HBP that is). At 200 pages shorter than OOTP it is still a long book but one hopes better planned, more tightly plotted, and more thoroughly thought out. Fingers crossed. Lupinlore From collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 15:47:15 2005 From: collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com (jina haymaker) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:47:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pensieve, Time-turner (was Re: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-)) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050310154715.60807.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125870 Vivian / vmonte wrote: > I think that someone warned Voldemort that Lily probably did > something to protect herself and the baby. This person told > Voldemort to not attack Lily and to go directly after Harry. > > > About Harry's eyes and physical appearance: > What if Harry sees/recognizes himself (as a seventeen-year-old > teenager) in someone else's pensieve memory. And what if that > memory belongs to his mother? He may realize that what he has to > do is go back to the past to fullfill some role he played there. > > When he does go back he will be mistaken for James by the DEs, > but found out by Snape because he has his mother's eyes. I'm not too sure about this, Vivian. Lily didn't really have to put a spell on Harry to have her love in him. Anyone could have seen that a mother has for their child would be greater than any spell, no one had to warn Voldy about Lily's love. When JK introduced the time-turner I wondered why no one ever went back in time and try to save the Potters, but I'm not too sure that Harry is the one to do it, he probably will (if he even is let to go back in time which I don't think will happen either). Jina From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 11 00:49:04 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:49:04 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > Betsy: > It's implausible only if you think that when it comes down to it, > wizards are more powerful than Muggles. Everything JKR has written > points to the opposite being true. Even the isolated acts of > violence speak of a weaker group attacking a stronger. Honestly, if > you put a Navy Seal up against an Auror, I think the Navy Seal would > win. Once a wizard loses his wand, he's pretty helpless, and I > don't think it would take much for the Navy Seal to disarm the > wizard. > > I think the Wizarding world was in danger of going the way of the > Neaderthals and that's why they went through the formidable task of > completely hiding their existence from Muggles. All the talk of > Muggles being weaker or in danger of becoming dependent on wizards > are so much propaganda. In fact, I think the propaganda has been > going on for so long, most wizards firmly believe it to be true. > But their own history tells a different story. > > Betsy I tend to agree. And we haven't even gone into the Achilles Heels of the WW, the muggleborns, half-bloods, and squibs. In any conflict between the two worlds, one would expect a certain percentage of the muggleborns and half-bloods to side actively with their muggle kin. Many more would side with them passively by dragging their feet in helping the Wizarding World. And the squibs, my God the squibs! If ever there was a ready made fifth column its them. Knowledgable of the WW, and at least generally informed of magic and how it works, but bitter and at least partially outcast. In your example above, Betsy, of the Auror and the SEAL, the SEAL is almost certain to be victorious if he is informed by an embittered squib "His power is in his wand. Break the wand and he is helpless." Finally, the wizards are drastically outnumbered. JKR is notoriously bad at math, so we don't have any idea how many wizards vis-a-vis muggles there are, but the wizards can't account for, at most, more than 0.015% of the population, and probably much less (Hogwarts is the only school and wizarding Britain and has, even allowing for JKR's generous and unseen number of pupils, only 1000 students covering seven year-groups). True, not all wizards attend Hogwarts but that is probably offset by the extended wizarding life-span and the fact that wizards can probably have children at ages that would be very old for a muggle. Some friends and I once did some calculations and figured that, given those ratios, in the U.S. with a population of roughly 300 million their could be only about 500 thousand wizards even allowing for ridiculously generous ratios. A more realistic figure would be anywhere from fifteen to thirty thousand, including the old, infirm, and children. Say then about ten thousand wizards of "combat capability." That against a population of 300 million. Worldwide that would mean about 200,000 war capable wizards against six billion muggles. Not a pretty picture. Once the muggles realized the wizards are helpless without their wands, the wizards would be done for, even without the full advantages of muggle science coming into play. Lupinlore From fuzzlebub85 at aol.com Thu Mar 10 15:56:42 2005 From: fuzzlebub85 at aol.com (fuzzlebub85 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:56:42 EST Subject: Happy Birthday, Remus! Message-ID: <1ac.33c0f0ed.2f61c83a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125872 Christelle: > Today, 10 March, is Remus' birthday. It make him a Pisces. Kaylee Tonks-Lupin here: A Pisces, hmm? Can anyone tell me exactly what characteristics Pisces are supposed to have? Do they fit the canon for Remus? Kaylee "And this is Nymphadora--" "DON'T call me Nymphadora, Remus, it's TONKS." "Nymphadora Tonks, who prefers to be known by her surname only." "So would you if your fool of a mother named you Nymphadora." --Remus John Lupin introducing Nymphadora Tonks to Harry in OOTP From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 11 00:54:21 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:54:21 -0000 Subject: Pensieve, Time-turner (was Re: Lily's physical description, and a bit more appar In-Reply-To: <20050310154715.60807.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125873 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jina haymaker wrote: > > > When JK introduced the time-turner I wondered why no one ever went back in > time and try to save the Potters, but I'm not too sure that Harry is the one > to do it, he probably will (if he even is let to go back in time which I > don't think will happen either). > > Jina I suspect the answer to the Time Turner question is that JKR uses the "easy" form of time-travel. That is, she predicates that the past, being the past, can't be changed. That way she doesn't have to worry about time paradoxes. When Hermione says "Bad things happen to wizards who mess with time," we tend to think she means there are laws against it. However, I think she may mean that there are "natural" consequences to messing with time. That is, history protects itself against paradoxes, and the backlash against a wizard who tries to change time is not pretty. Lupinlore From catportkey at aol.com Fri Mar 11 01:01:56 2005 From: catportkey at aol.com (catportkey at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:01:56 EST Subject: News Flash! HBP covers released! Message-ID: <13d.ec80a7a.2f624804@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125874 DD on the cover of the children's edition looks like Moses, but instead of parting the sea, he is creating a fire storm out of his wand. Hummmmmm. curious. I also like the idea of Snape being the HBP rather than Trevor, as suggested in previous messages. At the end of the last book, did DD define what Snape had to do? Pook [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From valy1x2 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 10 16:30:48 2005 From: valy1x2 at hotmail.com (Valy) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:30:48 +0100 Subject: What is the Half-Blood Prince? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125875 "LadyOfThePensieve" wrote: Right now Im reckon we are totally wrong if we think the Half-Blood Prince could be a person! Because of the adult cover of book 6 (Advanced Potion-Making) I remembered Snapes riddle in book 1. Harrys challenge was to find the right potion to come to through black flames to the Philosophers Stone. Valy replies: Despite I do not agree, I find it very interesting. And JKR said we'll be VERY surprised at the identity of the HBP, so maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. But I really find it interesting! Ooooh, the suspense! *rips hair off* Valy. From sharon8880 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 18:48:55 2005 From: sharon8880 at yahoo.com (sharon) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:48:55 -0000 Subject: What is the Half-Blood Prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125876 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "LadyOfThePensieve" wrote: > SNIP SNIP SNIP > No I honestly started to think the Half-Blood Prince is a POTION! > > Here in Europe we have got the funny tradition to give alcoholic > drinks funny names. > > For example: a very popular bitters is called "J?germeister" > (Master of Hunting). It?s no person, but a bitters! Another drink > is called "Kleiner Feigling" (Little Coward). Indeed no person, > but a form of schnapps. > > Well, just an idea JKR try to fool us totally. Everybody maybe > believes the Half-Blood Prince is a guy, but it?s a potion. I think you may be onto something. I think this is a very plausible theory. JKR does like to surprise us at times also. This could be a situation where perhaps we, the fans, could say to her "GOTCHA". I would love to see a fan getting a chance to beat her to the punch. Sharon From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 01:16:20 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 01:16:20 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125877 Betsy: "It's [Dumbledad's expectation that wizards would have been imperialist] implausible only if you think that when it comes down to it, wizards are more powerful than Muggles. Everything JKR has written points to the opposite being true. Even the isolated acts of violence speak of a weaker group attacking a stronger. Honestly, if you put a Navy Seal up against an Auror, I think the Navy Seal would win. Once a wizard loses his wand, he's pretty helpless, and I don't think it would take much for the Navy Seal to disarm the wizard. "I think the Wizarding world was in danger of going the way of the Neanderthals and that's why they went through the formidable task of completely hiding their existence from Muggles. All the talk of Muggles being weaker or in danger of becoming dependent on wizards are so much propaganda. In fact, I think the propaganda has been going on for so long, most wizards firmly believe it to be true. But their own history tells a different story." The wizards were in danger of suffering the same fate as other minorities in the 17th century and before. Whether any one wizard may be powerful compared to the average Muggle, the numbers just don't work out. There may only be a few thousand wizards in Britain, [this touches on the "how many students" argument for the umpteenth time] and I don't care if every one of `em is another Albus Dumbledore, they aren't going to come out on top compared to the millions of the general population. "Quantity has a quality of its own." ? Joseph Stalin. So a wizard might be able to defend himself against a Navy SEAL or an SAS commando, but he can't defend himself against a squad of them. Or a platoon. Or a company. Wizard violence towards Muggles seems to have been the acts of individuals and small groups (Voldemort and the Death Eaters, for instance) or misdemeanor Muggle-baiting by wizard louts, the equivalent of bashing mailboxes. There would be no way to convince the Muggle world that wizards weren't a threat. A shadowy cabal, hidden for centuries, possessed of power that no one understands. Oh, these wizards claim they really don't have all that power, but how can you believe it? Next thing you know the story would be going around wizards used the blood of Muggle babies in their spells. It's all been heard and done before. Don't forget the word "ghetto" is hundreds of years old, not a recent invention. We have a lot of history how the world treats groups it perceives as a threat. Jim Ferer From sharon8880 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 19:02:32 2005 From: sharon8880 at yahoo.com (sharon) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:02:32 -0000 Subject: Snape as HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125878 Some other posters have hinted that they think there is a possibility that Snape is the HBP. Well, here's a real quick theory to support that idea. Snape was a prince or some other monarch about to or just coming to power. Voldy formed an alliance with Snape for reasons of expanding power. Snape became an honorary DE because of this alliance. Voldy staged a coup sending Snape into exile, where he was given shelter at Hogwarts working as a professor. Snape then disavowed Voldy, which led to DD to trust him. Snape also became bitter after seeing HP, the infant son of his schooltime nemesis, defeat Voldy who robbed him of his power. This explains his disdain for Harry. So there you have it, Snape's past in a half-baked nutshell. I said it was real quick. Sharon Who stills see HBP as an abbreviation for High Blood Pressure From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 01:19:41 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:19:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is the Half-Blood Prince? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050311011941.17398.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125879 --- LadyOfThePensieve wrote: > maybe you wonder why I wrote what instead of who? > > Right now Im reckon we are totally wrong if we think the > Half-Blood Prince could be a person! > ............ > No I honestly started to think the Half-Blood Prince is a POTION! That's brilliant. I can definitely see that possibility. I really don't think the HBP refers to a real person or a character we've seen before. I suspect that with Book 6 we're going to be entering into a more intense training period for Harry (witness the pics with Dumbledore on the covers). This might be one of those hints. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From angelicfront5 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 19:14:37 2005 From: angelicfront5 at yahoo.com (Lauren Thibeault) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:14:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: It's Libatius (Was: News Flash! HBP covers released!) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050310191437.75228.qmail@web14924.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125880 Carol wrote: > No connection, probably, with the HBP, but the fact > that a potions text is shown is a pretty good indication > that Harry is in NEWT Potions and is finally recognizing > the importance of the Potions Master's subject. > > Carol, who really hopes we'll see HRH, Draco, and Theo > together in *Snape's* NEWT Potions class. Just a thought, but has any one considered the possibilty that Snape finally got the Defense Against the Dark Arts job and that Libatius Borage could very well be the new Potions Teacher? Just a thought, any takers? "angelicfront5" From fritts57 at aol.com Thu Mar 10 20:21:56 2005 From: fritts57 at aol.com (fritts57) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:21:56 -0000 Subject: HBP - Dumbledore, Snape, Gryffindor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125881 > Doddie: > anyone out there wondering or making new speculations about > > who the HBP is? I'm beginning to wonder if it is Dumbledore... > > Valy replies: > I'm beginning too, despite my thoughts are still set on Snape being > the HBP. Too much hints in my opinion, unless JKR is being evil and > leading us on a false way. Fritts writes: I am pretty new to this, so someone yell at me if it has already been stated... but couldn't the HBP be Gryffindor? JKR has stated that the first chapter was going to be the first in CoS, so a back story on the 4 founders of the school seems reasonable. There was a lot of talk in that book about the founders, more about Slytherin and his cool monster than Godric, but still. Just a thought... --Fritts trying out this internet thing From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 21:06:39 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:06:39 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125882 Dumbledad wrote: > Wizards and Muggles are both humans, and history teaches us that > when one group of humans have a large, tangible, and lasting > superiority over other humans they exploit it to subjugate them. > And yet muggle society is not totally beholden to the wizarding > world. Why aren't Vernon and all other muggles enslaved > and carrying out whatever menial tasks wizards do not want to do > for themselves? a_svirn: Maybe they were? Who knows how world history until 1692 lookes like from the wizarding point of view? And then there is this fishy business with Grindelwald's defeat in 1945. > Dumbledad: > > PS Quick aside: a_svirn wrote: > >>> After all most of us can't help but identify with Muggles > a fact that makes muggle/wizard relationship far more interesting <<< > > This is true of many or most adult readers but is it true of kids? > I think not, and after all, these are kids' books. a_svirn: Good point. a_svirn From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Thu Mar 10 23:23:52 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Fitzov de Sullens) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:23:52 -0000 Subject: Voldemort antibodies / blood protection (was Re: Lily's physical description ... (or, Voldemort antibodies)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125883 > frnsic: > We know that Voldemort's witch mother died giving birth to him > (therefore, died so that he could live). This could be Voldemort's > blood protection, but I doubt it, because Dumbledore (and Voldemort > himself) told Harry that he despised of and had forgotten about > this ancient form of magic. Is it likely he would despise of or > forget about something that could help or protect him? I'm a brand new member so please forgive me if I'm writing something that's been discussed before. (I haven't got round to reading all 100000+ posts yet and doubt I ever shall!) The question as to why LV didn't die is obviously central to the question of how (and whether) Harry will prevail over him in the end. It is probably also key to understanding the complexities of the powers of love and evil, and the mysteries of the veil. I too reject the idea that LV benefitted from the protection of his mother's blood for the same reasons that frnsic has so ably set out. I'm guessing that LV drew instead upon his own expertise of the Dark Arts, and conjured some protection of his own making. One other person who might possibly have followed in his footsteps to discover the secret of LV's survival is Sirius. I confess to being in total SAD DENIAL, and can't help but hope that Sirius might have been rather busier during Harry's fifth year at school than we are led to believe. Living cooped up in his parents' old house for a year might have led Sirius to start leafing though their library for clues. Having no other service to offer, he may have decided (unknown to anyone except possibly Lupin) to take the very great risk of venturing beyond the veil. I have many ideas as to why he might have done this, and what possible consequences it might have, but I won't push it on a first post. Fitzov From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 01:11:41 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 01:11:41 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125884 > Betsy wrote: > If the Wizarding World and the Muggle World got in a fight, > who would win? a_svirn: Wizards would. Betsy: > The thing is, JKR has already answered this question. After > all, the Muggles beat the Wizards several centuries ago. Why > would today be any different? a_svirn: What are you referring to? Where did JKR answer this question? betsy: > So maybe, wizards aren't all that superior after all. And maybe > their condescension towards Muggles hides a deeper fear. After > all, wizards were beaten by Muggles back when they were still > relatively informed of Muggle weapons and fighting tactics. a_svirn: Not that I think it matters (because I don't believe wizards were beaten), but suppose it does, whose fault is that? While Muggles are incapable of magic, nothing can stop wizards from mustering Muggle "fighting tactics". Wizards can do everything Muggles can AND magic. Surely it gives them a great advantage on Muggles. > Betsy: > In FB&WTFT, N. Scamander refers to "the dark days that preceded > the wizards retreat into hiding." And his footnote goes so far > as to call it "this particularly bloody period of wizarding > history." (p. xv) a_svirn: And what do we know about those "dark days"? Entirely too little to make any kind of assumption. Betsy: > In fact, a footnote in "Quidditch Through the Ages" mentions that > the 1692 International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy gave wizards > the right to carry wands at all times, including the quidditch > pitch. (p. 28) This right was given so that wizards could protect > themselves from Muggle attacks and would be the equivalent of > allowing basketball players to carry guns while on the court. > Again, this suggests that wizards were living in extreme danger. a_svirn: I agree it MIGHT suggest that wizards feared attacks from Muggles during Quidditch matches. However, to be able to judge of the possibility we need something more substantial than a footnote in "Quidditch through Ages". And even if they did feel cautious about Muggles it doesn't mean that they were in real danger from them. Just routine precautions. > >>Tammy: > >Muggles could conceivably end up enslaving wizards.< > > Betsy: > It would be relatively simple. "Mr. Weasley, we have your wife > and children hidden in an undisclosed location. Here are their > broken wands as proof. No harm will come to them if we have your > support in ." a_svirn: Well, it's simple all right. But unless it's a message from DEs or other dark wizards I don't see it happening. Betsy: > I agree with what Jim Ferer wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125763 : > a_svirn: Yes, I agree with Jim Ferer too. Don't see how this statement advances your argumentation about weak wizards and strong Muggles though. > Betsy: > For the most part, the Muggle world is fairly civilized and not as > superstitious as it was back in the time of Wizard persecution. > But we still loves us our conspiracy theories, as Jim points out, > and I think the scientific efficiency the Muggle world has developed > could be used to put a great hurting on the wizards of the world. > Wizards are for the most part, amateurs at the game of war. Muggles > have long since become quite professional. a_svirn: You are operating on a lot of assumptions here. How exactly can scientific efficiency hurt wizards? From what we saw in the books magic is far more efficient than technology. And how do you know that wizards are amateurs in the games of war? They are certainly adept in killing each other. And they succeeded in overpowering other magical peoples like goblins for instance. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 01:52:45 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 01:52:45 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125885 Lupinlore wrote: > In any conflict between the two worlds, one would expect a > certain percentage of the muggleborns and half-bloods to side > actively with their muggle kin. Many more would side with them > passively by dragging their feet in helping the Wizarding World. a_svirn: One would indeed. Only I don't remember it happening. Even Hermione is more concerned with the rights of house-elves and werewolves than with the way Muggles are treated by the Ministry. Lupinlore: > And the squibs, my God the squibs! If ever there was a ready made > fifth column it's them. Knowledgable of the WW, and at least > generally informed of magic and how it works, but bitter and at > least partially outcast. a_svirn: So what if they generally know how magic works? Even if Filch filched seven years worth of handbooks from the Hogwarts library and sent them to the Dursleys it wouldn't do them any good. They'd need to be magical to make this knowledge work. Lupinlore: > the SEAL is almost certain to be victorious if he is informed by an > embittered squib "His power is in his wand. Break the wand and he > is helpless." a_svirn: Sirius Black managed to elude both Aurors and Dementors without a wand. And Muggles too for that matter. Harry blew up his aunt without a wand. Besides it's not that easy to get a wand from a wizard. They could of course succeed every now and then, but not as a rule. Lupinlore: > Finally, the wizards are drastically outnumbered. a_svirn: Throughout the history Muggle minorities with better technology managed to conquer less fortunate majorities. One doesn't really need a big army if one has weapons of mass destruction at one's disposal. And magic is more effective than technology. So I don't think numbers are really all that safe. a_svirn From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Mar 11 02:40:50 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 02:40:50 -0000 Subject: What is the Half-Blood Prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "LadyOfThePensieve" wrote: > > > No I honestly started to think the Half-Blood Prince is a POTION! > Valky: Well, like everyone else who has responded, I really like this! What I would usually do now is adopt the assumption and try to find support and a further hypothesis to go with it, no exceptions here! Going from an assumption that the HBP is a potion.. lets find support for it... Lady wrote: > Here in Europe we have got the funny tradition to give alcoholic > drinks funny names. > Valky: Here in Australia too, it's not uncommon to give a drink a funny name, and the name usually relates something of the experience of drinking it. for example... Lady wrote: a very popular bitters is called "J?germeister" (Master > of Hunting. Having never drunk a Jagermeister myself, I would assume from it's description as a master of hunting that it is a rather masculine drink, hence its association with the masculine sport of Hunting. Being called a "Master" would mean it's probably not a light drink. You would expect it to be the choice of a burly masculine bloke. Another example Lady wrote: Another drink is called "Kleiner Feigling" (Little Coward). Indeed no person, but a form of schnapps. > Haven't had this one either, but I would be inclined to say that the word "coward" implies its a sweet drink (but still quite a stiff one), and Kleine(little) means its served in smaller amounts. You'd probably also expect to see this drink in the hands of a not-so-burly and less masculine person. So if the HBP as a potion is supported by the tradition of naming drinks we should be able to glean some information about the potion itself from the name Half Blood Prince. Furthermore, if the naming tradition applies to potions, then it's likely that we should be able to find *another* potion that is named in this way somewhere in text.. so is there one? No there isn't according to the Lexicon encyclopaedia of potions, I have confidence in the exhaustive coverage of everything in the lexicon, so I would conclude there is so far no Potions that have been named "personage style". Unfortunately HBP!Potion is not fully supported, but I will have a go at some speculative nonsense on the assumption anyway.. Half Blood Prince - If this were a potion named in the aforementioned tradition, I would expect it to be Princely and hence I would expect that it endows the drinker with princely qualities such as courage, dignity, rightness. A drink called Half Blood I would expect might be difficult to swallow, possibly gag inducing, probably a salty drink. If I were offered a goblet of Half Blood Prince I would hold my nose and gulp it down quickly... Valky From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 02:46:45 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 02:46:45 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125887 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > a_svirn: > So what if they generally know how magic works? Even if Filch > filched seven years worth of handbooks from the Hogwarts library and > sent them to the Dursleys it wouldn't do them any good. They'd need > to be magical to make this knowledge work. GEO: Knowledge about how the enemies abilties work would still benefit any military force going up against the wizards. > Sirius Black managed to elude both Aurors and Dementors without a > wand. And Muggles too for that matter. Harry blew up his aunt > without a wand. Besides it's not that easy to get a wand from a > wizard. They could of course succeed every now and then, but not as > a rule. GEO: Thats because none of the aurors, dementors or policeman knew that Black was capable of transforming into a dog. If they did, I dare say he would have been caught much more earlier. > Lupinlore: > > Finally, the wizards are drastically outnumbered. > > a_svirn: > > Throughout the history Muggle minorities with better technology > managed to conquer less fortunate majorities. GEO: Please tell that to the Nazis. German technology was much more advanced during WW2 yet numerical superiority on the side of the allies was able to nullify any technological superiority that Hitler and co. managed to have. > One doesn't really > need a big army if one has weapons of mass destruction at one's > disposal. GEO: And do wizards have the magical equivalent of a wmd? Even if they do considering how they have blended into the population, setting off the weapon would probably also kill a few of their own along with massive amounts of muggles. And magic is more effective than technology. So I don't > think numbers are really all that safe. GEO: No it isn't. They might be capable of things that present technology can't achieve however I don't think it's really superior. How exactly would they bring down a jet fighter for instance? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 02:52:16 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 02:52:16 -0000 Subject: A good narrative strategy (was Re: All the World's Problems; ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125888 Alla earlier: Do you think it would still compromise the narrative if two worlds were to meet at the end? Lupinlore: It would in a sense. If the WW and the Muggle World were to meet, all that would be blown out of the water. Say they were to meet at the end of the series, in Harry's seventh year. That would be 1997-1998. Well, obviously no such happened, so believability would go out the door. Even if she projected the meeting into the future, say in 2010, I think it would raise more questions than she wants to deal with. Alla: I see what you are saying and I perfectly understand where you are coming from, but I think I agree with Geoff - if such collision of two worlds were to happen in JKR's world, I would not think that it requires any more suspension of disbelief than the acceptance of "magical world". You know, to me it would just mean that wizards are known in JKR's muggle world, that is all. Again, the only reason why I sort of cared about possible collision is because I thought and still think that JKR is going for the radical reshaping of the morals of WW and that collision with muggles would somehow influence it. JMO, Alla From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 02:53:45 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 02:53:45 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > a_svirn: > > Not that I think it matters (because I don't believe wizards were > beaten), but suppose it does, whose fault is that? While Muggles > are incapable of magic, nothing can stop wizards from mustering > Muggle "fighting tactics". Wizards can do everything Muggles can AND > magic. Surely it gives them a great advantage on Muggles. GEO: The development of the military doctrine, training programs and technology isn't something that can be done in a few months or years. All the wizards have is magic and a less than stellar record of logical reasoning. Plus they don't have a standing army. The aurors are their equivalent of policeman/peacekeepers/jedi not actual soldiers. > You are operating on a lot of assumptions here. How exactly can > scientific efficiency hurt wizards? GEO: Scientific efficiency namely a massive industrial base capable of creating tanks, guns, planes and ships quickly and efficently would be quite capable of hampering wizards. >From what we saw in the books > magic is far more efficient than technology. And how do you know > that wizards are amateurs in the games of war? They are certainly > adept in killing each other. And they succeeded in overpowering > other magical peoples like goblins for instance. GEO: They have fought against magical enemies however we have never seem them fight against a fully trained and equipped standing army. The underlying concepts would be quite different and considering that the Ministry has no military command, I think their resistance would be effectively futile. From stonehenge.orders at verizon.net Fri Mar 11 03:26:30 2005 From: stonehenge.orders at verizon.net (kjirstem) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 03:26:30 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125890 > a_svirn: > > While Muggles are incapable of magic, nothing can stop wizards from > mustering Muggle "fighting tactics". Wizards can do everything >Muggles can AND magic. Surely it gives them a great advantage on >Muggles. > kjirstem: I don't agree, one could regard magical people as electro-magnetically handicapped, after all. There are forces that Muggles can work with that wizards apparently cannot, or Muggles can work with those forces in ways that wizards cannot. I happen to agree with Arthur C. Clarke that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." And it appears that some simple Muggle devices are real puzzlers to the wizards, if like Arthur Weasley they bother to notice what exists in the Muggle world. In addition, while the wizarding world plays Quidditch, we don't see them doing much else that is very physical. They may be capable of learning some Muggle ways of fighting but since it isn't something valued in their world they may not have the mental flexibility to think of doing that. In fact, never mind physical fighting, it seems that most wizards have very little idea of what Muggles know or are capable of doing. I don't think ignorance of one's opponent is a very useful weapon in a fight or war. > a_svirn: > How exactly can > scientific efficiency hurt wizards? From what we saw in the books > magic is far more efficient than technology. < > And they > succeeded in overpowering other magical peoples like goblins for >instance. > kjirstem: Magic sure seems more *fun* than technology, but more efficient? Which would you really prefer, putting your head in a fire or using a cell-phone? Owl post is lovely and romantic but not as speedy as email or telephone. As far as how can scientific efficiency hurt wizards, I don't know what Betsy was thinking but here's what occurs to me. There are a lot of Muggles trained in the sciences and if the WW was perceived as a problem then money and people would be allocated toward solving that problem. Not necessarily a nice thing, but there you have it. Also, the goblins, ummm. They appear to be in charge of the only bank. All the wizard/goblin interactions I can think of indicate a certain wariness. (Hagrid speaks quietly regarding them, Bagman seems to be in hot water over his crooked dealings with them.) I'm not sure they lost. kjirstem ? who would love to be a witch but thinks the WW is a little daft From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Fri Mar 11 04:11:52 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 04:11:52 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125891 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > > > "... if I was to rise again, more powerful than I had been when > > > I had fallen. I wanted Harry Potters blood. I wanted the blood > > > of the one who had stripped me of power thirteen years ago for > > > the lingering protection his mother once gave him would then > > >reside in my veins too." > > > > Max replied: This statement doesn't necessarily show that > > Voldemort believes he will be protected by Lily's blood now. > GEO responded: Really? I for one certainly think it does show that > Voldemort would get that additional benefit. He says it himself that > the protection would then reside within his veins. Max: I guess it depends on how you interpret "reside". You choose to interpret that as the protection is being shared. I choose to interpret it as the protection is simply being carried in his blood. Neither of us can say at this point who is right and who is wrong. It's all a matter of opinion. > > Max replied: I seriously doubt that protective magic can be > > transferred to another simply by taking a bit of someone's blood. > GEO responded: And how can you say whether that is possible or > impossible? Max: I have no idea if it's really possible or impossible. My opinion is that I seriously doubt it in this particular case. > GEO responded: It's really Rowling's world and whatever her > characters say in terms of exposition is probably true. Max: Again, the "exposition" you refer to is open to interpretation. > GEO responded: Besides it's magic almost anything is possible > considering the rules governing it are more murky. Max: True. But this neither proves nor disproves my case or yours. > > Max replied: Imo, V is simply stating that his ownership of the > > lingering spell in his veins will nullify Harry's protection. In > > his mind, he is now free to kill Harry. > > GEO responded: No thats not what he says. He says he shares in the protection. . . Max: I hate to be a stickler, but nowhere do the words "share in the protection" or even the word "share" appear in the referenced text. This is simply your reading of the text. > GEO responded: . . .but if the protection was truly nullified then > why does Dumbledore decide to send him back to Privet Drive and the > Dursleys at the end of GoF. Max: The Privet Drive protection was set in place by Dumbledore and sealed by Petunia. It can be seen as related to or even an extension of Lily's protection, but it is a separate charm. I believe this is a fact stated in the text and not my opinion, but others may disagree. In short, many things are clearly stated in JKR's text. Imo, Voldemort gaining protection from Lily's blood is not one of them. What we *do* know is that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry that night, and the only way to do so would be to nullify Lily's lingering protection. This is clearly important to Voldemort, as one of the first things he does is to show the DEs how he can now touch Harry. So, who's right. I have no idea. But we each cetainly have our own opinions. :) From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 05:22:32 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:22:32 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125892 >>Betsy: >After all, the Muggles beat the Wizards several centuries ago. Why would today be any different?< >>a_svirn: >What are you referring to? Where did JKR answer this question?< Betsy: Every piece of Wizarding history given to us by JKR speaks to a large calamity that occured back around the middle ages and ended in a mass retreat of the entire Wizarding World. The entire WW revolves around keeping their existence secret. This is not the actions of a victorious people. When the wizards went into hiding, they were also given the right to carry their wands with them at all times, including the quidditch pitch. This is not a routine percaution. Can you name *any* country in the world where the citizens are encouraged by their government to go about armed at all times, even in the middle of a sporting event? Again, these are not the actions of winners. >>a_svirn: >And what do we know about those "dark days"? Entirely too little to make any kind of assumption.< Betsy: We know quite a bit actually. We know that things were bad enough that the only school of Witchcraft and Wizardry in Britian was built in a remote area, hard for anyone to reach. (Remember, this was before floo powder. And so far there's no evidence a wizard can apperate with a passenger. Getting children to the school must have been a major effort.) We know the times were bad enough to be refered to as "dark" and "bloody". We know that wizards were so desperate to avoid the notice of Muggles they opened negotiations with magical folk they did not fully trust (goblins, mermaids, centuars, etc.). And we know that the end result was a full out retreat with the goal of not only disappearing but to arrange things so that magic never appeared to exist. You put all of this together, it's pretty clear that Muggles were such a large threat they drove Wizards underground. >>Tammy: >Muggles could conceivably end up enslaving wizards.< >Betsy: >It would be relatively simple. "Mr. Weasley, we have your wife and children hidden in an undisclosed location. Here are their broken wands as proof. No harm will come to them if we have your support in ."< >>a_svirn: >Well, it's simple all right. But unless it's a message from DEs or other dark wizards I don't see it happening.< Betsy: Why? There are Special Operation groups from all over the world who could *easily* infiltrate the Burrow and subdue and capture any Weasley on premise before a wand was drawn. The Burrow doesn't have any warning system against Muggles, Mrs. Weasley isn't combat trained, neither are the children. This kind of operation is an example of the Muggle professionalism and scientific efficiency I mentioned up thread. A specially trained group, doing what they do best, going up against a housewife and some school children: no contest. >>kjirstem (message # 125890) : >As far as how can scientific efficiency hurt wizards, I don't know what Betsy was thinking but here's what occurs to me. There are a lot of Muggles trained in the sciences and if the WW was perceived as a problem then money and people would be allocated toward solving that problem. Not necessarily a nice thing, but there you have it.< >>GEO (message # 125889) : >GEO: Scientific efficiency namely a massive industrial base capable of creating tanks, guns, planes and ships quickly and efficently would be quite capable of hampering wizards.< Betsy: I was thinking of both your and GEO's examples, Kjirsem. I would add the specialization of skills, and a logical, systematic way of tackling the perceived threat. Lupinlore made a great point about Squibs in message # 125871. They'd be an excellent source of information, and that information would be poured over until every weakness was identified and fully understood. I would imagine it would not take long until there were Muggle military and scientific groups specilizing in different aspects of the Wizarding World. >>Betsy: >I agree with what Jim Ferer wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125763 >>a_svirn: >Yes, I agree with Jim Ferer too. Don't see how this statement advances your argumentation about weak wizards and strong Muggles though.< Betsy: Oh, I was just agreeing with Jim that if the WW was revealed, it wouldn't take long for suspicion and distrust to set in and eventually for some sort of conflict to breakout. It doesn't go towards my argument, but it does set out that a war would probably occur. Betsy, who snipped and reordered things quite ruthlessly. From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 11 05:58:38 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:58:38 -0000 Subject: PoU and Voldemort's fate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "juigikario" wrote: > > Steve Bates wrote in this message: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/1039 snip So if you can kill Voldy's > > body but not his spirit, you'd need something that can destroy his > > spirit as well. > > And, of course, JKR has already introduced something that can > > destroy a spirit, or "soul": a dementor. Might it turn out that > > the only way to permanently get rid of Voldy is to have a dementor > > kiss him? If so, how to turn the dementors against Voldy? > > > Dementor option would be out of the question; Voldemort is the > Dementors' ally. I disagree! I have a nice dinner with my DH riding on the theory that somehow, LV's soul will get inside Harry, and the Dementors will be tricked into smooching him, and they will suck out Voldy's soul instead of Harry's! But even if the answer is more straightforward than that, the Dementors don't strike me as particularly loyal. Should they become displeased with LV, they may very well turn on him. There are plenty of (speculative) scenarios in which this could be possible. We have no evidence that LV has control over the Dementors other than the ability to offer them humans to feed on. I would guess they have very little effect on him, as I don't think he has many happy memories to feed on. > > Frankly, I think Tom Riddle (NOT Voldemort) will somehow manage > redemption, which is likely one of Dumbledore's goals. It would > certainly get Voldemort taken down for good in the process. "juigikario" I think he'll have a clear choice... and that's all I think. I don't know what he'll choose. So far, he has only chosen evil. Each evil choice he makes will make the path of redemption even harder. But not impossible. imamommy From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 11 06:01:25 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:01:25 -0000 Subject: A good narrative strategy (was Re: All the World's Problems; ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125894 > > Alla: > > I see what you are saying and I perfectly understand where you are > coming from, but I think I agree with Geoff - if such collision of > two worlds were to happen in JKR's world, I would not think that it > requires any more suspension of disbelief than the acceptance > of "magical world". You know, to me it would just mean that wizards > are known in JKR's muggle world, that is all. > > Again, the only reason why I sort of cared about possible collision > is because I thought and still think that JKR is going for the > radical reshaping of the morals of WW and that collision with > muggles would somehow influence it. > > > JMO, > > Alla I understand what you are saying Alla, and the only response I can give at the moment is that JKR just doesn't seem very interested in those kinds of plot developments. It's a shame in a way, but nevertheless based on what she has said in her interview I think it's true. Maybe a lot of the fun for her comes from hypothesizing this radically separate world and she feels like the enjoyment would disappear if she brought things closer to the Muggle world. The WW as she describes it has a LOT of glaring faults, but it is also simpler, more personal, and filled with issues that, for all the greyness and murkiness we sometimes see in the books, are still quite a bit neater than those faced by the Muggle world. Evil and Good are relatively clear in the WW world compared to ours, and it is possible still to have romance and heroism in a pure sense. I suspect that JKR is often very disappointed and disapproving of the things she sees in the real world. I in no way mean to mock her or belittle her for that, because a lot of people are less than enchanted with modern life. But she has said firmly she does not believe in magic, and her depictions of Little Whinging hint that she has a less than favorable view of the kind of Middle Class ethos that dominates so much of the culture, society, and politics of the Anglo-American world. We know that much of her own life, including her first marriage and, if the media are to be believed, her relationship with her father, has been filled with difficult and long-lasting problems. I suspect that the WW is very attractive to her because, for all its inadequacies, it is still a smaller, simpler world of romance and adventure and heros and magic where Good can face Evil in a literal way, and where a brave individual can make a fundamental difference through heroic action and determination to follow what is right. To mix that with the "real" world, that is the stuffy, complicated, murky, Muggle world where romance and heros sometimes seem like things for childrens books; where individual initiative often seems to mean nothing against the iron wheels of economics and the quagmires of political interest; where even in the pursuit of good and right collective action, organization, and professionalism are often more important than bravery and heroism; where the society of Little Whinging is often the dominant factor; where Good and Evil are often difficult to define and once defined, to do anything with; might well seem to her to be a betrayal. I think we might see some basic change in the morals and ethos of the WW. But I suspect it will come from within the WW itself with any Muggle influence being indirect. That way JKR can preserve her fun and avoid all the messy entanglements that might otherwise arise. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 11 06:05:54 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:05:54 -0000 Subject: PoU and Voldemort's fate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125895 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > > But even if the answer is more straightforward than that, the > Dementors don't strike me as particularly loyal. Should they become > displeased with LV, they may very well turn on him. There are plenty > of (speculative) scenarios in which this could be possible. We have > no evidence that LV has control over the Dementors other than the > ability to offer them humans to feed on. I would guess they have > very little effect on him, as I don't think he has many happy > memories to feed on. > Nor are they particularly controllable. Dementors seem to be like vampires in Gothic fiction -- inclined to let their hunger overwhelm their self-control. Recall how they crowded into the Quidditch Pitch in PoA. Perhaps they were drawn to Harry for some reason, but the common belief was that they were drawn by so many souls to feed on. In either case, attacking in that manner at that time was not a calculated move, considering the presence of so many powerful wizards, but seemed more like a herd movement based on instinct. Lupinlore From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 07:09:55 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 07:09:55 -0000 Subject: Did JKR cheat with the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > Doddiemoemoe wrote: > > snip > > So YES!! OF COURSE!!! JK cheated horribly with the prophecy...The > only way in that JK wouldn't cheat with the prophecy is if she > wouldn't have left it until the fifth book... > > IMHO if there was anything that needed telling in the fifth book was > that in the COS Tom Riddle would have at least told Harry about it > then..at least part of it...TR's questions/suppositions lead us NOW > to question this.. > > vmonte responds: > > The Tom Riddle preserved in the diary was only a teenager. This > diary was made by Tom while he was at Hogwarts. And it did not > contain any future memories of the prophecy. > > Vivian Doddie here: You absolutely cannot use this arguement since "Diary Tom" would not have known about Harry Potter defeating him YEARS LATER, yet speaks about it in COS scene!!!! I do not believe there is cannon to support "how Harry got his scar" with regards to discussions with TR...and if he found out about it...it would have had to come from Ginny. My guess is that in COS, TR is looking for answers he doen't have...and still didn't get...because Harry simply didn't know...nor had anyone he came into contact with let anything "slip"...hence yet another reason for Harry to be raised in the Horribly Horrific Dursley home!(no slip-ups of wagging tongues WW which leads to trial in oop...because sssssooooo much was never made public info...or even rumor/gossip info.) What's worse...is that we now have to wonder if Neville heard any of the prophecy during MOM scene....but also if any of the de's or OOP members who can give voldie the snippet he desires to hear. ***heavy sigh*** If DD did not have the same doubts he STILL would not have told Harry about the prophecy...the weapon is too great!!! I'm so glad that Neville being Neville destroyed the orb in oop. DeeDee From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Mar 11 07:42:45 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 07:42:45 -0000 Subject: What is the Half-Blood Prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sharon" wrote: Sharon: > I think you may be onto something. I think this is a very plausible > theory. JKR does like to surprise us at times also. This could be a > situation where perhaps we, the fans, could say to her "GOTCHA". I > would love to see a fan getting a chance to beat her to the punch. Geoff: I hope your punch will be a pleasant blend of Jaegermeister and other suitable beverages which also as had Flitwick treating it with a Cheering Charm. It would make a most pleasant glass to have by your side when you reach the more upsetting parts of HBP - which are bound to be there.... :-) From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 08:05:04 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:05:04 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125899 Betsy: "Every piece of Wizarding history given to us by JKR speaks to a large calamity that occured back around the middle ages and ended in a mass retreat of the entire Wizarding World. The entire WW revolves around keeping their existence secret. This is not the actions of a victorious people." Not a calamity, but a widespread pattern of persecution that led to the Wizards going underground. We know from our Muggle history that war never ceased, and persecution of minorities didn't, either. How many witch-burnings and pogroms did the wizards have to see before they decided this wasn't their party? Actually, I suspect wizards had been hiding for a long time before their concealment was codified in 1692. Betsy: "Oh, I was just agreeing with Jim that if the WW was revealed, it wouldn't take long for suspicion and distrust to set in and eventually for some sort of conflict to breakout. It doesn't go towards my argument, but it does set out that a war would probably occur." War, no, but widespread persecution and public distrust. Heck, the *fictional* wizards we have now are getting themselves in trouble on a daily basis with some groups! Imagine the fuss if the Harry Potter books had to be taken out of the children's literature section at your local library and moved to History. Prosperous minorities around the world have been persecuted out of envy and paranoia throughout history. If it wasn't for this dark side of human nature, a wizard could clean up. The Trio could go on Jay Leno, Madame Pomfrey could do a guest shot on "ER," and Snape could get an endorsement deal from Suave Clarifying Shampoo while Narcissa Malfoy shows off her home to M-----. But I digress. Years ago I wrote a fic where Hermione is interviewed by the Muggle press after the wizard world is outed. She talked about these problems. I haven't seen anything to make me change my mind that the wizards have to stay secret. Jim Ferer From dumbledoreindistress at yahoo.com.au Fri Mar 11 04:24:33 2005 From: dumbledoreindistress at yahoo.com.au (dumbledoreindistress) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 04:24:33 -0000 Subject: What is the Half-Blood Prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125900 Valy: > Despite I do not agree, I find it very interesting. > And JKR said we'll be VERY surprised at the identity of the HBP, Pardon my ignorance, but when precisely, and where precisely, did the great woman utter these words? Jeremy, suspicious of EVERYTHING since that fiasco involving the catalogue company. From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 07:42:43 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 07:42:43 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125901 Amy wrote: > > > I have often asked myself this same question. I mean if anyone is > > going to get 12 OWLs it will be Hermione. > > > > I like your[Hannah's] idea that maybe there are different types of OWLs > within > > each subject. I truly believe that this would make the most since > and > > would simulate our own educational testing. > I always assumed the practical and written were considered 2 separate OWLs. In the book they are worded that way. I remember it sounding like they were described as the Written OWL and practical OWL like they are 2 different things. Not all subjects would have the practical part but Potions, Transfiguration, Charms, Defense Against Dark Arts. I would think are the only ones maybe a couple others. So this would be 16+ possible OWLs and Hermione could get at least 14 of them. Also the courses might change from time to time. I remember DD saying he was thinking of removing Divination. Maybe at times there are more teachers available. There could have been a real Dark arts class back in the day instead of muggle studies. Brent From jacobalfredo at hotmail.com Fri Mar 11 08:56:17 2005 From: jacobalfredo at hotmail.com (albusthewhite) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:56:17 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and free will (was: Re: Did JKR cheat with the prophecy?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125902 Two different points, both related to discussions stemming from a single post. > > vmonte responds: > > > > The Tom Riddle preserved in the diary was only a teenager. This > > diary was made by Tom while he was at Hogwarts. And it did not > > contain any future memories of the prophecy. > > > > Vivian > Doddie here: [snip] > > You absolutely cannot use this arguement since "Diary Tom" would > not have known about Harry Potter defeating him YEARS LATER, yet > speaks about it in COS scene!!!! now albusthewhite: Actually, you absolutely *can* use this argument, because as Riddle himself says, "Well, you see, Ginny told me all about you, Harry.... Your whole *fascinating* history" (CoS USHB 311). TR doesn't have any memory beyond his (fifth?) year at Hogwarts; the info on more current events is provided unwittingly by Ginny in conversing (IMing?) with her diary. elsewhere, lupinlore says: "If the prophecy is true and therefore unavoidable, Voldy really DIDN'T have a choice in striking, as it was already foreordained. His only choice was in striking Harry rather than Neville. And even there he was sharply restricted, as the prophecy foreordains it will be one of those two out of all the wizard children born that year. "So you see, ultimately you can't have a true prophecy and freedom of choice at the same time. If the prophecy is true, it means the prophet has seen what will happen in the future. That in turn means the future is fixed and freedom of choice is an illusion, since choices have already been determined before they are made -- indeed before the people involved even realize their IS an (apparent) choice. "Now, you can try to put a subtle spin on it by saying that true prophecies don't DETERMINE choice, they only PREDICT choice with 100% precision. But once again, when you analyze that carefully it boils down to the future being fixed, and freedom of choice being an illusion. The arguments (which have been exhaustively explored in the religious context of divine predestination) boil down to the fact that a choice that can be predicted with 100% precision cannot, under any reasonable or logical understanding of the term, be a FREE choice.* back to me, albusthewhite: This is interesting, and I'll try to discuss it in context of the WW (so as not to provoke the ire of the list elves :^). I think that - at least for *this* prophecy and the events of *this* story, Lupinlore answers his or her own objections. Regardless of its origins, this prophecy does NOT determine or predict choice with 100% precision -- it only predicts EFFECTS and POSSIBILITY. An important distinction, I think. The prophecy reads (sorry for the repeat): "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives..." To my mind, this does not equate to predicting/determining choice -- there isn't a single actual event identified precisely. Without getting into any of the many, many interesting and greatly discussed alternative readings of the prophecy, the elements are: 1. Someone (HP) is going to be born at the end of July who has the POTENTIAL of defeating Voldemort. 2. VM will "mark him as his equal" -- but there's no specificity as to when or how this will occur, or even exactly what this phrase means. 3. HP will have some power. 4. Someone's gonna die. None of this precludes any kind of choice, with the possible objection that VM must "mark" HP as his equal. But since that phrase is vague, even it doesn't really limit free will. VM is NOT locked into "striking" Harry. He could "mark" him in another, non-scar-related way. Perhaps VM could write a poem about how Harry reminds him of a young Tom Riddle, or give Harry grades in class that are the same as TR got as a student. There's really no limit, given the openness of the text. What the prophecy does do is identify that HP and VM will figure into each other's future. Fate. Whatever. The point is, Jo has put together a really compelling story centering, as Lupinlore says, on the importance of choice, and that the larger issue of free will isn't compromised by this prophecy. -- albusthewhite who thinks this makes sense but absolutely MUST get back to working on his dissertation ps - can someone please tell me how to get my post to not do the irritating line break thing? The "Wrap message text" box doesn't seem to do anything -- I've tried it both ways. From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 10:03:59 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:03:59 -0000 Subject: Prophecy,Choice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125903 Finwitch: Now, IMO, a prophecy CAN predict, with 100% certainty, a choice made by - say - Dark Lord. And yet, the Dark Lord makes that choice FREELY. Why is that? because: a) Dark Lord knows not of this choice until AFTER he's done it. b) it can be predicted, because Dark Lords act that way. c) It's like someone coming back with a TimeTurner, knowing what WILL happen. After all, Timeturner!Harry DID know his other self would be freeing Pettigrew.. AND Trelawney had predicted it to Harry, BUT even that did not make Harry's choice any less free, did it? Anyway, I suggest for anyone interested of other stories (as 6th book won't be out until July) where the future has been predicted and yet there are choices - I liked the Belgariad/Malloreon by David Eddings... yet another growing-up story with TWO competing prophecies that both get fulfilled... Finwitch From timregan at microsoft.com Fri Mar 11 10:35:12 2005 From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:35:12 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125904 Hi All, Eek, this feels like it's getting a bit heated, bringing the Nazis into a discussion always makes me nervous. That said, for me it is obvious that the wizards would obliterate the muggles. One clear advantage is military intelligence. There are easy tests wizards can run to distinguish themselves from muggles, but there is no test muggles can use. Actually that is not true, there are tests, like the ducking stool or dropping muggles out of windows a la Neville, but the tests result in the death of the unfortunate muggle so would not work as a screening process muggles could use to detect wizzards. Wizards have a huge advantage over muggles in that respect, any muggle war cabinet could be infiltrated with wizards and the muggles would not know. At key moments in any conflict a few Avada Kedavras would remove all the muggle leaders and all muggle key strategic planners. Without a good strategy and without good leaders I do not think the muggles could win a conflict. So when GEO asks "How exactly would they bring down a jet fighter for instance?" my answer would be that wizards would ensure that the order to launch was never given. And that's just assuming an all-out physical war. I think it's much more likely that wizards would use magic to undermine muggle technologies and muggle economies. If one morning the muggle world bank awakes to find that its gold reserves are really chocolate, and muggle power stations are running on bon-bons, and the food muggles fed their children has no calorific value, then it would not take long to move muggles back from their technologically advanced state to that of subsistence farmers. For me the only way to escape this logic is if the presence of magic in a human body somehow reduces its capacity for logic or for planning. As GEO said "All the wizards have is magic and a less than stellar record of logical reasoning." But I do not buy that. Hermione and McGonagall are presented as extremely good logicians. But I think that the trouble with this aspect of the books is that we are left with two choices: we can accept these inconsistencies as just part of JKR's writing style, i.e. the world of the HP books is not internally complete or consistent; or we can build increasingly baroque and implausible explanations of how inconsistencies are proved consistent after all. For me the first path takes us to truth and boredom while the second brings us to falsehood and lengthy enjoyable threads! I've tried to write this without confrontation, but it may be a bit contentious, so I feel I need to borrow Steve's sign off ... Just a thought. Dumbledad. From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 11:45:50 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:45:50 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and free will (was: Re: Did JKR cheat with the prophecy?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125906 > > vmonte responds: > > > > The Tom Riddle preserved in the diary was only a teenager. This > > diary was made by Tom while he was at Hogwarts. And it did not > > contain any future memories of the prophecy. > > > > Vivian > Doddie here: [snip] > > You absolutely cannot use this arguement since "Diary Tom" would > not have known about Harry Potter defeating him YEARS LATER, yet > speaks about it in COS scene!!!! now albusthewhite: Actually, you absolutely *can* use this argument, because as Riddle himself says, "Well, you see, Ginny told me all about you, Harry.... Your whole *fascinating* history" (CoS USHB 311). TR doesn't have any memory beyond his (fifth?) year at Hogwarts; the info on more current events is provided unwittingly by Ginny in conversing (IMing?) with her diary. vmonte again: Actually, you can't. Ginny doesn't know anything about the prophecy, neither does Harry (during CoS). Dumbledore tells Harry about the prophecy during OOTP, 2 years later. So, all that Ginny could have told TR about Harry is what is common knowledge in the WW. Basically, that Voldemort was defeated by a baby--no details, nothing. Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 11:59:29 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:59:29 -0000 Subject: Pensieve, Time-turner (was Re: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-)) In-Reply-To: <20050310154715.60807.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125907 I vmonte wrote: > I think that someone warned Voldemort that Lily probably did > something to protect herself and the baby. This person told > Voldemort to not attack Lily and to go directly after Harry. > > > About Harry's eyes and physical appearance: > What if Harry sees/recognizes himself (as a seventeen-year-old > teenager) in someone else's pensieve memory. And what if that > memory belongs to his mother? He may realize that what he has to > do is go back to the past to fullfill some role he played there. > > When he does go back he will be mistaken for James by the DEs, > but found out by Snape because he has his mother's eyes. Jina wrote: I'm not too sure about this, Vivian. Lily didn't really have to put a spell on Harry to have her love in him. Anyone could have seen that a mother has for their child would be greater than any spell, no one had to warn Voldy about Lily's love. When JK introduced the time-turner I wondered why no one ever went back in time and try to save the Potters, but I'm not too sure that Harry is the one to do it, he probably will (if he even is let to go back in time which I don't think will happen either). vmonte again: I'm not saying that someone warned Voldemort that Lily loved Harry. What I'm saying is that someone warned Voldemort that harming Lily would somehow backfire on him. They told Voldemort to go after Harry, only, and to leave Lily unharmed. This "snitch" did not have the full details of how Lily protected Harry, but was aware that she was working on something. This "snitch" is probably the same person that heard the prophecy. I hate time-travel stories (although I think that JKR has done a good job with it), but it's definitely coming back. And no, Harry will not be able to save his parents because it was their choice to die. They believed that that was the only way Harry would survive, and they made sure that no one could interfere with their plans. Not even Dumbledore knows the full details of what happened at GH. Vivian From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 12:59:45 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:59:45 -0000 Subject: What is the Half-Blood Prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "LadyOfThePensieve" > wrote: > > > > > > No I honestly started to think the Half-Blood Prince is a POTION! > > > > > Lady wrote: > > Here in Europe we have got the funny tradition to give alcoholic > > drinks funny names. > > > > Valky: > Here in Australia too, it's not uncommon to give a drink a funny name, > and the name usually relates something of the experience of drinking > it. for example... --- > > Half Blood Prince - If this were a potion named in the aforementioned > tradition, I would expect it to be Princely and hence I would expect > that it endows the drinker with princely qualities such as courage, > dignity, rightness. > A drink called Half Blood I would expect might be difficult to > swallow, possibly gag inducing, probably a salty drink. Finwitch: I don't know... but there IS a coctail called Bloody Mary (a mixed drink) - named so after a Queen Mary who didn't hesitate to have her subjects executed... so at least Blood and Royalty in a drink name have been used - so why not a drink/potion in wizard world called Half Blood Prince? Of course, if this Half Blood Prince is a drink or a Potion, it absolutely MUST have some magical effects! How about- or food? Have you ever eaten 'knights' for desert (bread handled in a certain way -- with red jam. Rich ones have cream, too... Poor ones just the jam...) Hmm... what if it's some sort of blood-pancake someone decided to call half-blood prince? Now let's see -- what kind of magical effect could this drink/potion/food have? Goblet of Fire -- no one was drinking from it! Order of the Phoenix - a bird of Fire... Sure, let's have Aberforth mix a Half Blood Prince: Ogden's Fire-whiskey and DragonBlood (Albus DID come up with 12 uses of Dragonblood... maybe Aberforth made up a 13th one: a Drink) or maybe it's goatblood if dragons aren't available... Or, half-and-half... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 13:25:28 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:25:28 -0000 Subject: shortest stay at Privet Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125909 > GEO: Except the wizards that Harry encountered were all seemingly > Order members or ministry aurors including Diggle, Shacklebolt and > Vance so they were of no threat and possibly observers and people > sent by DD to check up on him. Finwitch: Yes, but - I'm just saying that even if the protection has not been broken (apart from the Dementor-attack), it could be. We saw Voldemort telling Pettigrew that even he cannot harm Harry while he's under his relations' care... so he's not even *trying*. Now-- 'as long as you can still call home a place where your mother's blood dwells there you will be safe from Voldemort' - hasn't Harry always considered Hogwarts more his *home* than Privet Drive? What if Petunia is killed in a car-accident, by DE or Voldemort... And why didn't Dumbledore count Dudley as Lily's blood? He SHOULD also have it via his mother... I have serious doubts about this blood-protection... Was it the blood-protection or Harry's own internal magic or Lily's love-mark that kept Vernon from strangling Harry to dead? Or starvation? or poison? or a magical, lethal disease? Plenty of ways for Harry to die within Dursley household without Voldemort getting involved. (Of course, the prophecy means Voldemort must *be* there, but maybe he'll just pretend to be Grunnings' potential customer, bribe Vernon or - well, as long as he doesn't try to off Harry personally, the protection might not WORK...) Finwitch From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 13:35:52 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:35:52 -0000 Subject: Changes in Wizarding World Was:A good narrative strategy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125910 Lupinlore: I think we might see some basic change in the morals and ethos of the WW. But I suspect it will come from within the WW itself with any Muggle influence being indirect. That way JKR can preserve her fun and avoid all the messy entanglements that might otherwise arise. Alla: Oh, absolutely. After she said that the breach was final, that is exactly what I think too. I am just wondering what would be the driving force for such change, if it were to occur. You know, if it is not collision with muggle world, which it is not for sure, what IS it then? Voldemort's defeat? But then nothing really changed after Dumbledore defeated Gridenwald and after Harry defeated him for the first time. I guess this time must be different somehow. Actually, no scratch that something did change, albeit in small way. As Dobby says house elves are treated better now, sort of. So, I can see Dobby playing important role in defeating Voldie and accordingly status of house elves may change. But so many things need to be changed on so many levels (IMO only) and I am just not sure that sure that Voldie's demize will force them all to occur. What do you think? JMO, Alla From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Fri Mar 11 16:07:40 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:07:40 -0000 Subject: HBP In-Reply-To: <20050309180616.4513.qmail@web51903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125911 doddiemoemoe wrote: > > > > Since the release of the book covers...anyone out > > there wondering or > > making new speculations about who the HBP is??? > > > > I'm begining to wonder if it is Dumbledore..... > > > > I believe someone (perhaps Malfoy) made the comment > > that he was the > > champion of "mudbloods"... > > > I had the same thought after seeing the various covers > yesterday -- especially the Scholastic one and the way > the words "and the Half-Blood Prince" look. Isn't > Dumbledore's handwriting described as "spidery" and > "loopy"? Probably a long shot, but something else to > throw into the mix. > > starmom I started off wondering if it was DD, then took a little stroll through almost all the other characters (via Hagrid, Arthur Weasley, and even Sturgis Podmore) and am now back at DD again. Here's how it goes: DD is not only the HBP, he is also a descendant of Gryffindor. DD owns the house in Godric's Hollow. He got a tip-off that Voldy was after the Potters, he knew it was because of the prophecy, but he hadn't told *anyone* about it. He went to the Potters and convinced them to go into hiding, offering his own house in GH. He *also* convinced them to use the fidelius charm, and he wanted to be their secret-keeper. He didn't tell them about the prophecy, though, because he knew someone close to them was a spy, and he didn't want Voldy to think that *he* thought it was important. Because the Potters didn't, therefore, know that Harry is one of only two people with the power to get rid of Voldy for good, they didn't think it was necessary to have DD as secret-keeper (all the way up in the Highlands), and they stuck with Sirius (at least to start with). Events unfolded, and DD learned of what happened immediately because there's a painting of Gryffindor in the house in GH and a painting of him in the Headmaster's study at Hogwarts. (Sighs) It's the best I can do, and it's *really boring*. Sorry. However, I'm now toying with the idea that there was a prophecy about the founders... Binns says: "The story goes that Slytherin had built a hidden chamber in the castle, of which the other founders knew nothing. [...] Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at the school." (The Writing on the Wall, CoS). The other founders knew nothing, right. So where did the legend come from then, I wonder? Perhaps Salazar wasn't above a bit of bragging in the pub. Or was there a prophecy about the heir of Slytherin? "... and none will come after ..." - No more descendents of Slytherin? Either Voldy will live forever, or the Slytherin line will end when he dies. Binns is remarkably silent about what Slytherin did after leaving the school. Did he disappear? Did he go on to found Durmstrang? Did he go on to become a seriously evil wizard, and get killed by Gryffindor? Enquiring minds want to know. Dungrollin From stbjohn2 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 16:08:34 2005 From: stbjohn2 at yahoo.com (stbjohn2) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:08:34 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125912 --- > > Amy wrote: > > > > > I have often asked myself this same question. I mean if anyone is > > > going to get 12 OWLs it will be Hermione. > > > > > > I like your[Hannah's] idea that maybe there are different types of OWLs > > within > > > each subject. I truly believe that this would make the most > since > > and > > > would simulate our own educational testing. > > > Brent says: > I always assumed the practical and written were considered 2 separate > OWLs. In the book they are worded that way. I remember it sounding > like they were described as the Written OWL and practical OWL like > they are 2 different things. > > Not all subjects would have the practical part but Potions, > Transfiguration, Charms, Defense Against Dark Arts. I would think are > the only ones maybe a couple others. So this would be 16+ possible > OWLs and Hermione could get at least 14 of them. > Sandy now: From the 2004 World Book Day Chat: faye109: Is 12 the maximum possible number of OWLs one can achieve? JK Rowling replies -> Yes, I think it is off the top of my head. The woman is *notoriously* unable to add more than 2 plus 2, but she says 12 is the most, so we have to trust her. Every convoluted method of assigning two OWLs in some subjects exceeds 12. I've previously posted several pieces of canon that support the one-subject, one-OWL position (You can find it on the OOTP chapter discussion of the OWLS chapter if you want actual citations); but briefly, in their talks to classes about OWLs, both Snape and McGonagall tell the students "I expect you to earn an OWL" in this subject, and those are both subjects that would break down into 2 OWLs is you beleive practical earns a second OWL. I don't think either Snape or MM would be settle for their students only earning one OWL when 2 are possible. Also, Parvati says "Isn't there a practical bit on our DADA OWL?" clearly indicating practical and theory are combined. I guess we, like Harry, will find out for sure in July :>) From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Mar 11 16:23:00 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:23:00 -0800 Subject: Splinching (was: Can wizards cure cancer?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <125141803.20050311082300@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125913 Tuesday, March 8, 2005, 9:26:50 PM, justcarol67 wrote: j> They can even survive splinching (yet Sir Nick died from a j> beheading, which to me seems inconsistent. Oh, well!). My personal idea about splinching is not that the Wizard gets physically severed from his body parts (as Harry envisions), but that the Wizard gets stuck somewhere in hyperspace/4th dimension/sub-ether (whatever you prefer) with only certain parts of them still protruding into normal space, causing the illusion of disembodied eyes, limbs, organs, etc. floating around. -- Dave (who perhaps has read too many books by Rudy Rucker) :) From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 16:27:49 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:27:49 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and free will (was: Re: Did JKR cheat with the prophecy?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125914 > ultimately you can't have a true > prophecy and freedom of > choice at the same time. Yes you can. Suppose there were 2 laws on nature: 1) If Voldemort lives much longer he will kill Harry. 2) The only thing that might be able to kill Voldemort is Harry. Put these two together and you have the famous prophecy, that is, in the near future one or both of the two will be dead, it's imposable for both to survive. Harry can choose to kill Voldemort and live or not kill him and die, it's up to Harry. Eggplant From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 11 17:23:04 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:23:04 -0000 Subject: DD as HBP/Heir of Gryffindor (was: HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125915 Dungrollin theorized: > DD is not only the HBP, he is also a descendant of Gryffindor. DD > owns the house in Godric's Hollow. He got a tip-off that Voldy was > after the Potters, he knew it was because of the prophecy, but he > hadn't told *anyone* about it. He went to the Potters and convinced > them to go into hiding, offering his own house in GH. > > He *also* convinced them to use the fidelius charm, and he wanted > to be their secret-keeper. He didn't tell them about the prophecy, > though, because he knew someone close to them was a spy, and he > didn't want Voldy to think that *he* thought it was important. > Because the Potters didn't, therefore, know that Harry is one of > only two people with the power to get rid of Voldy for good, they > didn't think it was necessary to have DD as secret-keeper (all the > way up in the Highlands), and they stuck with Sirius (at least to > start with). > > Events unfolded, and DD learned of what happened immediately > because there's a painting of Gryffindor in the house in GH and a > painting of him in the Headmaster's study at Hogwarts. SSSusan: I have a bit of a different take. The house in GH is the Potters' house, because James is a descendant of Bowman Wright, inventor of the Golden Snitch, who lived in GH. That's where James got the family money ? Wright managed to make a killing from this (and perhaps from selling other Quidditch-related gear, as the popularity of Q. surely soared after the snitch made playing the game more available to the masses). DD told James & Lily about the prophecy. However, he was *not* the Secret Keeper because he convinced J&L that he was such an obvious target for Voldy to come after, that he didn't want to have that knowledge in his possession if Voldy should do so. Thus, DD suggested Sirius. James & Lily ? for *whatever* reason [still don't know this part] ? were suspicious of either Sirius or Lupin *OR* believed Sirius when he suggested that NO ONE in his right mind would suspect Peter of being their SK and went with Peter. DD did not know where James & Lily were. However, there *was* a portrait in GH which ? without a Fidelius Charm in place ? could have talked with its counterpart in DD's office. Once Voldy killed James & Lily and the house blew up (for whatever reason), the FC was broken. The Hogwarts portrait knew instantly that its counterpart had been blown up, and this is what alerted DD to the fact that something had gone down at GH and he needed to go check things out. This is not to say that DD is or isn't the HBP, really; it's just a different take on DD's role in the events leading up to the GH attack. I still think it's possible for DD to be the HBP. I'm just not sure what it would *mean* if he is. Dungrollin: > However, I'm now toying with the idea that there was a prophecy > about the founders... Binns says: > "The story goes that Slytherin had built a hidden chamber in the > castle, of which the other founders knew nothing...." > The other founders knew nothing, right. So where did the legend > come from then, I wonder? Perhaps Salazar wasn't above a bit of > bragging in the pub. Or was there a prophecy about the heir of > Slytherin? "... and none will come after ..." - No more descendents > of Slytherin? Either Voldy will live forever, or the Slytherin line > will end when he dies. SSSusan: What I'm curious about in *this* part of your post, Dungrollin, is how DD's possibly being the HBP and GG's descendant would play into this. If the last heir of Slytherin needs to be wiped out, we know it is only going to happen by one of the Prophecy Boys, not by DD's hand. So if DD is the HBP and GG's descendant, what is the role he would be playing in the elimination of Slytherin's final descendant? Siriusly Snapey Susan From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 11 17:29:04 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:29:04 -0000 Subject: Changes in Wizarding World Was:A good narrative strategy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125916 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > > > Alla: > > Oh, absolutely. After she said that the breach was final, that is > exactly what I think too. I am just wondering what would be the > driving force for such change, if it were to occur. You know, if it > is not collision with muggle world, which it is not for sure, what > IS it then? > > Voldemort's defeat? But then nothing really changed after Dumbledore > defeated Gridenwald and after Harry defeated him for the first time. > I guess this time must be different somehow. > > Actually, no scratch that something did change, albeit in small way. > As Dobby says house elves are treated better now, sort of. > > So, I can see Dobby playing important role in defeating Voldie and > accordingly status of house elves may change. But so many things > need to be changed on so many levels (IMO only) and I am just not > sure that sure that Voldie's demize will force them all to occur. > > What do you think? > > > JMO, > > Alla I think we will likely see that cooperation on the magical side is key. By that I mean I don't necessarily mean the much discussed "unity of houses," although I wouldn't be surprised if we see something coming of that, but cooperation among wizards, house elves, werewolves,goblins, etc. I think this was set up by Umbridge and the anti-werewolf legislation, SPEW, and DD's talk in OOTP about the Ministry Fountain being a lie. What form this will take I don't know. To tell you the truth, I'm a little bit nervous about it, since it seems awfully late in the day to introduce such major shifts without them seeming forced in terms of the plot. Be that as it may, I think we will see something like that which is critical in terms of defeating Voldemort. I don't think we will see this leading to overall major changes in Wizarding society during the actual narrative, more that we will see how this cooperation plays out with particular individuals and groups. However, we may well see references to outgrowths of this in the last chapter when JKR gives us an overview of what happens to everybody. I wouldn't be surprised to see passing references to overall changes in the Wizarding ethos over time coming out of the Voldywar experience. Lupinlore From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 11 19:00:58 2005 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:00:58 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin For Real? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125917 Greetings all, (One shouldn't start things one isn't able to finish. I'll be gone for a few days starting from tomorrow 5.45 AM and won't have Internet access, but I had a thought that won't leave me alone and thought I'd toss the ball to other HP fans and see if it bounces. Just as a disclaimer, I'm not a teacher.) Do you think Remus is portrayed realistically as a teacher, in terms of his personality rather than knowledge? For plot reasons, he has to be a good teacher, and JKR has written him as her pedagogic ideal. >From day one, he outdoes fabled fictional teachers like Mr Chips or John Keating (of Dead Poets' Society) - not for him Hagrid's slow tortuous journey of trial and error. While his suitcase with "Professor R.J. Lupin" in peeling letters hints that it's not his first teaching job, it's still circumstantial evidence. But in the same breath JKR's described him as a person with profound issues, as someone who desperately needs to be liked. He rates fairly low on the scale of self-esteem and self-respect as well. How would he deal with a situation where he'd have to disappoint his students? As JKR writes his lessons, he doesn't seem to have any troubles with upholding his authority, but we only see him with the third-year Gryffindors. Where would he be if one substituted a bunch of hostile seventh-year Slytherins who'd only be too happy to challenge him? Or - horror of horrors - an over-large class in an inner-city state school. Would he handle it just as well? I'm not sure, so I hope someone could convince me. Is it just that he's done some growing up from his easily cowed teenage self and only has one weak point (making Dumbledore disappointed) left, or is he too good to be true? Alshain (who if she could add to her Remus-centric fanfic now would add a couple of diary entries where he wails about unruly classes) From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 11 20:31:35 2005 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:31:35 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125918 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > > Betsy: "Every piece of Wizarding history given to us by JKR speaks to > a large calamity that occured back around the middle ages and ended in > a mass retreat of the entire Wizarding World. The entire WW revolves > around keeping their existence secret. This is not the actions of a > victorious people." Jim: > Not a calamity, but a widespread pattern of persecution that led to > the Wizards going underground. We know from our Muggle history that > war never ceased, and persecution of minorities didn't, either. How > many witch-burnings and pogroms did the wizards have to see before > they decided this wasn't their party? Actually, I suspect wizards had > been hiding for a long time before their concealment was codified in 1692. I'd need to check on my sources again, but the witch craze during the era actually bordered on mass psychosis in Northern Europe. A common trait in witch trial protocols from all over Europe (haven't studied the Salem records as much) was that the intent of the witch or wizard didn't make any difference whatsoever. Every kind of magic, Light or Dark didn't matter, was punished just as harshly. I don't think it's a small wonder if magical people finally had it with Muggles who couldn't even see the difference between good and bad magic. Attempting an explanation probably only led to the stake. And about the witch hunts: In one of my favourite fanfics, the author has a grown-up Neville Longbottom musing that the lessons in History of Magic might not have been dull and boring by accident (AJ Hall: Dissipation and Despair). The smugly stated theme of Harry's history essay in PoA and the glib account in his text book give me similar suspicions. *Was* witch-burning in the Middle Ages (two misunderstandings; first, witch hunts belonged in the 17C [the medieval bugaboo was heresy, not witchcraft], second, witches in England were hanged, not burned) really all that pointless as Harry's history book suggests? What if you were a Squib? What if you didn't have a wand ready? Or what if you for some reason didn't know how to perform a Flame-Freezing charm? Harry uncritically accepts his text book without looking for corroboration from other sources, but then we already knew that he isn't much of a scholar. (And if the Dursleys do own an edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, I'll bet anything that Harry isn't allowed to touch it.) Magical historians must have their biases as well, internal and external ones. It's a no-no to whip up antagonism against Muggles, as a true account might have done, and it wouldn't do much good to present witches and wizards as helpless victims of Muggle bigotry for exactly the same reason. So what do they do to get out of this Catch- 22? They breezily belittle and explain away the entire problem. (All right, it's possible that I'm attributing unnecessarily sinister motives to Bathilda Bagshot, author of "A History of Magic". But the wizarding world seems to have its collective head in the sand about so many issues that a few more won't make much difference at all.) Alshain From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 11 20:39:51 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:39:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DD as HBP/Heir of Gryffindor (was: HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050311203951.28570.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125919 SSSusan wrote: DD told James & Lily about the prophecy. However, he >was *not* the Secret Keeper because he convinced J&L that he was >such an obvious target for Voldy to come after, that he didn't want >to have that knowledge in his possession if Voldy should do so. >Thus, DD suggested Sirius. James & Lily ? for *whatever* reason >>[still don't know this part] ? were suspicious of either Sirius or >Lupin *OR* believed Sirius when he suggested that NO ONE in his >right mind would suspect Peter of being their SK and went with >Peter. I do not have access to the texts, so cannot give page titles, but IIRC DD did offer to be secret keeper for James and Lily. He tells Harry this in PoA as well as his regret for not insisting upon it. James told DD he wanted Sirius as secret-keeper and that he [James] trusted him. DD reminded him there was someone close to him who is a spy but James wouldn't hear of it. It was only later--by Sirius' insistence--that James and Lily made Peter the secret-keeper. That is why Sirius feels responsible for J&L's death. As for whether or not J&L knew about the prophesy--I don't recall any discussion of that. I do, however wonder why DD suggested J&L hideout but didn't do the same for the Longbottoms--or did he? I don't recall that. We do know that at that time DD did not know which child would fulfill the prophesy. Harry didn't become that child until LV tried to kill him and marked him as his equal [according to DD]. theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 20:55:46 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:55:46 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS - Who got what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stbjohn2" wrote: > > --- > > > Amy wrote: > > > > > > ... if anyone is going to get 12 OWLs it will be Hermione. > > > > > > I like your[Hannah's] idea that maybe there are different > > > types of OWLs within each subject. I truly believe that this > > > would make the most sense ... > > > Brent says: > > I always assumed the practical and written were considered 2 > > separate OWLs. ... > Sandy now: > > From the 2004 World Book Day Chat: > > faye109: Is 12 the maximum possible number of OWLs one can achieve? > > JK Rowling replies -> Yes, I think it is off the top of my head. > > ... she says 12 is the most, so we have to trust her. Every > convoluted method of assigning two OWLs in some subjects exceeds 12. bboyminn: Everything is subject to interpretation until proven in canon. JKR's statement that 12 is that maximum number of OWLs you /can get/, doesn't necessarily imply that it is the total number of OWLs available. I know that sound contradictory, but it's possible that there are logistical problems that prevent a student from taking every possible OWL test there is. Perhaps, in the time available, it's not possible to sit more than 12 OWL test. In post number 125659, I calculated 18 possible OWLs. It's possible that you may not be able to sit for both the Practical and Theory test for every subject. Although, I will admit that there is a loophole in the idea. All the test seem to take place in the Great Hall with a limited number of examiners. If all test are given in the same place, then it's hard to support the idea of overlapping or conflicting test schedules. > Sandy continues: > > I've previously posted several pieces of canon that support the > one-subject, one-OWL position; but briefly, in their talks to > classes about OWLs, both Snape and McGonagall tell the students "I > expect you to earn an OWL" in this subject, ... > > I guess we, like Harry, will find out for sure in July :>) > > Sandy bboyminn: Here I will point out (again) that people don't speak (or at least, extremely rarely) in absolutes, we generalize, we summaries, we take shortcuts, usually on the assumption that the people we are speaking to know enough of the specific and context to fill in the minor details themselves. Having said all that, I think it is most likely that JKR created 12 subject and assumed one OWL per subject, without really sitting down and analyzing the details of that OWL testing system. And that is a reasonable thing for an author to do. Even though JKR may have a great deal of knowledge of the wizards and the wizard world that will forever remain off-page, it's reasonable that she didn't dedicate countless hours to refining the OWL testing system when in reality it is a very minor aspect of the story. In my analysis of the number of OWLs, we see 8 core required subjects and 4 elective subjects. In Hermione's case, the two classes she is not taking are Divinations and Muggle Studies. I can't imagine that she will not get an OWL in the classes she is taking. The most difficult ones are Arithmacy and Ancient Runes, and she seems to enjoy those subjects. Certainly, and especially after taking one year of Muggle Studies, Hermione, being a muggle, can pass that test. That leaves Divination and the question of whether Hermione would even bother with the subject. She doesn't seem to place much faith in Divinations, although she is somewhat aware that fortune telling is possible. Conclusion, I think it is safe to say that Hermione got 11 OWLs, as to the 12th, that hinges on whether you think she would bother with the Divinations test, and if she did bother, could she then pass it. Given the poor performance in Divination we've seen by others, either it's an easy pass, or a lot of people are going to fail it. Based on my best quess, I see Harry (and probably Ron) getting 6 OWLs for sure, and the 7th would hinge on whether he/they did well in Astronomy, which if you remember, was interupted by the attack on Hagrid. I suspect Harry could have gotten an additional OWL if he had taken the time to take the Muggle Studies test. That wouldn't be a guaranteed pass because it's really not about Muggles, but about wizard's view of muggles. So, 6 OWLs most likely, and 8 at the absolute most for Harry, and 6, possibly 7, for Ron. Not bad, not bad at all. (Assuming one OWL per subject.) Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 23:00:39 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:00:39 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125921 > > GEO: Knowledge about how the enemies abilties work would still > benefit any military force going up against the wizards. a_svirn: How exactly? > GEO: > > > Sirius Black managed to elude both Aurors and Dementors without a > > wand. And Muggles too for that matter. Harry blew up his aunt > > without a wand. Besides it's not that easy to get a wand from a > > wizard. They could of course succeed every now and then, but not > as > > a rule. > > GEO: Thats because none of the aurors, dementors or policeman knew > that Black was capable of transforming into a dog. If they did, I > dare say he would have been caught much more earlier. a_svirn: This is probably true. However wizards still can apparate (I maybe wrong, but I think it's a kind of wandless magic). And anyway it's not easy to disarm a wizard without magic. In fact you only can do it if you catch them by surprise. > > > Lupinlore: > > > Finally, the wizards are drastically outnumbered. > > > > a_svirn: > > > > Throughout the history Muggle minorities with better technology > > managed to conquer less fortunate majorities. > > GEO: Please tell that to the Nazis. German technology was much more > advanced during WW2 yet numerical superiority on the side of the > allies was able to nullify any technological superiority that Hitler > and co. managed to have. a_svirn: Were they? As far as I know allies had the same kind of weapons that Germans had: war airplanes, tanks, submarines, destroyers, etc. The Nazis might have been a bit ahead when it comes to technology, but not that far ahead. By the end of the war it was the allies who had a nuclear bomb, not the Nazis. When I spoke about technological superiority I meant the situation when one side is armed by bows and arrows and the other one with guns and cannons. > > And magic is more effective than technology. So I don't > > think numbers are really all that safe. > > GEO: No it isn't. They might be capable of things that present > technology can't achieve however I don't think it's really superior. > How exactly would they bring down a jet fighter for instance? a_svirn: Well, I don't know how they can bring down a jet fighter. But I know how wizards can solve the problem of wmd without the least difficulty once and for all. They only need to interrogate a dozen of the top Muggle officials (like the US and Russian Presidents, and British Prime Minister etc.) on the subject of wmd and connected programs with Veritaserum. Upon learning where the wmd are kept wizards need only vanish them together with the corresponding documentation, and then modify memory of all Muggles concerned. In fact they could even obliterate the whole knowledge about nuclear physics etc for good just as they have obliterated knowledge about magic. After they finished the task the whole thing would exist only as a stuff of sci-fi novels just as magic is a stuff of fairy-tales. I concede that the last task might prove tedious, but not impossible. a_svirn From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 23:20:56 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:20:56 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125922 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > a_svirn: > How exactly? GEO: Knowledge of specific spells that they are capable of performing, information about their capabilities with and without wands and their knowledge about defense would all prove immensly useful to military planners. > a_svirn: > > This is probably true. However wizards still can apparate (I maybe > wrong, but I think it's a kind of wandless magic). And anyway it's > not easy to disarm a wizard without magic. In fact you only can do > it if you catch them by surprise. GEO: Or a soldier could do it with a standard issue assault rifle by shooting the said wizard. a_svirn: By the end of the war it was the allies who had > a nuclear bomb, not the Nazis. When I spoke about technological > superiority I meant the situation when one side is armed by bows and > arrows and the other one with guns and cannons. GEO: Except there isn't that big of a gap between wizard and regular muggle technology. They aren't inferior or superior as more like just completely different systems. And besides look at Vietnam for the USA or Afghanistan with the Soviets, in both situations a more advanced force was defeated and hampered by a less advanced force through enormous sacrifices in manpower from the latter. > a_svirn: They only need to interrogate a dozen > of the top Muggle officials (like the US and Russian Presidents, and > British Prime Minister etc.) on the subject of wmd and connected > programs with Veritaserum. GEO: And how would they get their hands on these said officials who are surrounded by secret service agents and body guards everyday. Upon learning where the wmd are kept > wizards need only vanish them together with the corresponding > documentation, and then modify memory of all Muggles concerned. In > fact they could even obliterate the whole knowledge about nuclear > physics etc for good just as they have obliterated knowledge about > magic. GEO: To do any of the above tasks you mentioned would require an enormous amount of work which we don't know if the wizards are even capable of. To vanish all the nuclear, biological and chemical stockpiles along with every bit of information on how to develop them would mean modifying the memory of a significant portion of the population not to mention going through and combing through millions of books and destroying every piece of technology that uses nuclear energy including nuclear energy plants which I think is beyond the wizard's capability. Besides if they were capable of doing such a task why haven't they obliviated the muggles back to a medieval or feudal era or back to caveman status to make it easier to control them? From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 23:24:56 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:24:56 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125923 > > kjirstem: one could regard magical people as > electro-magnetically handicapped, after all. There are forces that > Muggles can work with that wizards apparently cannot, or Muggles can > work with those forces in ways that wizards cannot. a_svirn: How do you figure that? What forces do you have in mind? JKR sure never said anything about that. Harry is a wizard and he's doing things muggle way just fine in Little Whining. > kjirstem: And it appears that > some simple Muggle devices are real puzzlers to the wizards, if like > Arthur Weasley they bother to notice what exists in the Muggle world. a_svirn: "Bother" is a key word here. They don't need Muggle technology, because they prefer magic thank you very much. But when and if they bother to master it, they can. Just like F&G mastered the muggle way of picking locks. > > kjirstem: > Magic sure seems more *fun* than technology, but more efficient? > Which would you really prefer, putting your head in a fire or using > a cell-phone? Owl post is lovely and romantic but not as speedy as > email or telephone. a_svirn: They were speedy enough when they expelled Harry from Hogwarts. Besides, JKR said that wizards have their equivalent of internet which is far better than Muggle one and more fun. They also have mirrors that work like mobile phones and DD said that members of the order have other means of communication. Not to mention that wizarding ways of transportation far more efficient than that Muggle ones. > > kjirstem: > > Also, the goblins, ummm. They appear to be in charge of the only > bank. All the wizard/goblin interactions I can think of indicate a > certain wariness. (Hagrid speaks quietly regarding them, Bagman > seems to be in hot water over his crooked dealings with them.) I'm > not sure they lost. a_svirn: Goblins are magically powerful and yet they have been discriminated by wizards trough centuries and despite several rebellions they are still being discriminated to the point that the Order of the Phoenix is concerned that they ally themselves with LV so that they got the equal rights with wizards. a_svirn > From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 23:25:08 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:25:08 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" wrote: > That said, for me it is obvious that the wizards would obliterate > the muggles. One clear advantage is military intelligence. There are > easy tests wizards can run to distinguish themselves from muggles, > but there is no test muggles can use. Actually that is not true, > there are tests, like the ducking stool or dropping muggles out of > windows a la Neville, but the tests result in the death of the > unfortunate muggle so would not work as a screening process muggles > could use to detect wizzards. GEO: Or they could try the very sure and old method of interrogations. I'm sure there are probably other ways to differentiate the two groups. Possibly placing the suspects under a great deal of stress could also do it Wizards have a huge advantage over > muggles in that respect, any muggle war cabinet could be infiltrated > with wizards and the muggles would not know. GEO: What about background checks? I thought that any potential members of Cabinet at least in the USA underwent one just in case they were under the pay and employ of some foreign agent. I'm sure that would make it very difficult for someone to infiltrate the inner circle of the PM or at least the President. > At key moments in any > conflict a few Avada Kedavras would remove all the muggle leaders > and all muggle key strategic planners. Without a good strategy and > without good leaders I do not think the muggles could win a > conflict. GEO: How exactly would they be able to get to these said leaders in the first place when they are probably surrounded by body guards and secret service people? Besides there's that whole line of succession here and that means you'll have to wipe out the whole cabinet or legislature. > And that's just assuming an all-out physical war. I think it's much > more likely that wizards would use magic to undermine muggle > technologies and muggle economies. If one morning the muggle world > bank awakes to find that its gold reserves are really chocolate, and > muggle power stations are running on bon-bons, and the food muggles > fed their children has no calorific value, then it would not take > long to move muggles back from their technologically advanced state > to that of subsistence farmers. GEO: That would take a great deal of power something, which we haven't seen from the wizards. > But I do not buy that. > Hermione and McGonagall are presented as extremely good logicians. GEO: That may be true, but the present Minister of Magic and his Undersecretary are wonderful studies in human incompetence and pettiness not to mention the total lack of effiency. Perhaps muggles can start fearing wizards when someone like Hermione or McGongall becomes minister of magic however I very much doubt that will ever happen in the wizard world. From bamf505 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 23:28:46 2005 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:28:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All the possible OWLS - Who got what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050311232846.25138.qmail@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125925 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stbjohn2" > wrote: > > --- > > Amy wrote: > ... if anyone is going to get 12 OWLs it will > be Hermione. > > > > > I like your[Hannah's] idea that maybe there > are different > types of OWLs within each subject. I truly > believe that this > would make the most sense ... *big ol' snip with shiny scissors* There is one simple explaination that people have over looked. It maybe possible that there are more than 12 exams (I think someone counted 18), but that students are limited to taking no more than 12, and in the case of conflicting exams - a student may have to choose OR alternative exam times could be set up for them. bamf, going back to the shadows "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 23:34:31 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:34:31 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125926 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > a_svirn: > > > > Not that I think it matters (because I don't believe wizards were > > beaten), but suppose it does, whose fault is that? While Muggles > > are incapable of magic, nothing can stop wizards from mustering > > Muggle "fighting tactics". Wizards can do everything Muggles can > AND > > magic. Surely it gives them a great advantage on Muggles. > > GEO: The development of the military doctrine, training programs and > technology isn't something that can be done in a few months or > years. All the wizards have is magic and a less than stellar record > of logical reasoning. Plus they don't have a standing army. The > aurors are their equivalent of policeman/peacekeepers/jedi not > actual soldiers. > > > You are operating on a lot of assumptions here. How exactly can > > scientific efficiency hurt wizards? > > GEO: Scientific efficiency namely a massive industrial base capable > of creating tanks, guns, planes and ships quickly and efficently > would be quite capable of hampering wizards. > > From what we saw in the books > > magic is far more efficient than technology. And how do you know > > that wizards are amateurs in the games of war? They are certainly > > adept in killing each other. And they succeeded in overpowering > > other magical peoples like goblins for instance. > > GEO: They have fought against magical enemies however we have never > seem them fight against a fully trained and equipped standing army. > The underlying concepts would be quite different and considering > that the Ministry has no military command, I think their resistance > would be effectively futile. a_svirn: They don't need to fight against the fully trained army. Wizards can make themselves unplottable. They can apparate to the Muggle headquarters and after a few carefully applied Iperios make Muggles to aim their amazing ships, planes etc at themselves. They can make them issue the orders that ensure the sort of "friendly fire" that would turn all that technology into a great smoldering pile. Etc, etc, a_svirn From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 00:06:51 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:06:51 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125927 >>Betsy: >JKR hasn't taken the easy route before. Why would she do it now?< >>Lupinlore: >Well, I certainly hope you are correct, Betsy. And perhaps I am rather pessimistic because after waiting three years post-GoF I found OOTP to be a sloppy, half-baked mess that badly needed another six months of work followed by about three heavy sessions with the editor. But I suppose everybody is allowed one mess-up. Harry is allowed his mess-up year and JKR should be allowed her mess-up book.< Betsy: Ah. This is where we part ways, I guess. I quite liked OotP. I don't recall any scenes that I thought unnecessary to the plot, nothing I would have cut. I liked how JKR ratched up the tension and introduced more depth to the storyline. I love that not all of Harry's enemies are minions of Voldemort. I love that friend and foes are not easily identified and I love that Harry's choices are not automatically correct. (Now if we could just work on dear Hermione... ) I think we've gotten into discussions before about how the various characters changed - I quite liked the changes and thought they flowed well from previous books (i.e. Percy leaving the Weasleys, Molly's breakdown, Neville's bravery and determination). Ginny was a bit jarring. There could have been more foreshadowing in earlier books there, though I did like Ginny's character. And I could have done with more Draco (though I think his development for good or ill should occur or at least start in the next book). But I liked the new characters JKR introduced (pause for Luna love moment), and the introduction of more folks not Gryffindor. You mentioned some other series that have disappointed you. I haven't read the Sword of Truth series, and I've only read the first two or three books in King's Dark Tower series. So I can't judge on those. I am a big fan of Jordan's Wheel of Time series, and I disagree about it falling apart after the first three books. (Mat isn't fully realized until further into the series, IIRC.) But then, I love the plottiness and the almost realistic politics of Jordan's world. However (and to save the above comments from being completely OT) JKR has one strong advantage over Jordan and King: She knows exactly how long her series will be. She knew from day one that the series would last seven books, one for each year. That knowledge would have forced her to do some fairly strict outlining. I believe she's said in an interview or two that she's had the final chapter written for a long time now, mainly so she'd always know what she was aiming for. And she's so keen on puzzles and riddles, I imagine she's had to plan for every mystery's outcome. So I think we're reading a series that has been very well planned out. Not to say that there hasn't been errors along the way. Ginny is the most glaring one, IMO. And I really think that was a matter of not dropping big enough hints than an authorial change of mind. (I reread the books with Ginny in mind recently, and her OotP personality was there, you just had to search for it.) But as far as realistic (within the genre) development of the characters, I think JKR has done an excellent job. No one is unrealistically perfect. No one is unrealistically evil. Even Voldemort - with his supervillian posturing - was originally Tom Riddle, poor little orphan boy. (Again - all within the genre. I'm not arguing that JKR has written a true to life documentory type story.) I also think JKR has bravely stepped a little beyond genre and added some unsearched for depth to the characters and her world. I love that the Weasleys are not a perfect little family. I love that the WW can engage in rather mob-like behavior and be swayed by charisma and good press. I love that Fudge can seriously screw with Dumbledore's plans while still being an incompetent little toady of a Minister. And I love that Harry can get a little unhinged by the pressures brought to bare on him and throw himself a proper teenage temper-tantrum. It adds depth to the story. And I think it's a part of the reason so many adults enjoy the series. Of course, it could all fall apart in the next two books. JKR has set up certain expectations of redemption and comeuppance. She's set the bar pretty high on what will constitute a satisfying ending. I have confidence in her though. After all, she's not trying to figure the ending out as she goes along, and she's not bowing to public pressure. (Hello Chris Carter - yes I'm talking to you.) The ending has long been written, and JKR has been aiming for it from book one. I think she'll hit the bullseye. Betsy, who seriously held back on waxing worshipful on Mat. And didn't even mention Min! From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 00:18:45 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:18:45 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125928 > Betsy: > Every piece of Wizarding history given to us by JKR speaks to a large > calamity that occured back around the middle ages and ended in a mass > retreat of the entire Wizarding World. a_svirn: When you say "every time JRK speaks " do you mean the same footnote in Quidditsch through Ages"? > Betsy: The entire WW revolves around > keeping their existence secret. This is not the actions of a > victorious people. a_svirn: Is that a fact? We know that the MoM insists on observing secrecy when it suits them, but I didn't notice that ordinary wizards bother to do so. We saw one major event so far in books ? the World Cup, and no one except the ministry wizards who where on duty and Arthur Weasly bothered about Muggle security. You are right when you say that hiding is not the actions of victorious people. You have a point here, I agree. But Muggle sure don't look any more victorious, do they? You assume that there was a conflict and wizards lost to Muggles, and those who survived went into hiding. But what if they went into hiding in order to avoid the conflict? Because wizards knew that Muggles didn't stand a chance and they wasn't prepared to eradicate fellow humans just for safety reasons? Betsy: > > When the wizards went into hiding, they were also given the right to > carry their wands with them at all times, including the quidditch > pitch. This is not a routine percaution. Can you name *any* country > in the world where the citizens are encouraged by their government to > go about armed at all times, even in the middle of a sporting event? a_svirn: I believe that in 17th century Muggles went around armed to their teeth. > Betsy: > We know quite a bit actually. We know that things were bad enough > that the only school of Witchcraft and Wizardry in Britian was built > in a remote area, hard for anyone to reach. a_svirn: For one thing Hogwarts was founded almost 7 centuries earlier than these dark and bloody times that ended up with the Statute. For another we have another explanation for its secrecy in GoF: "There's traditionally been a lot of rivalry between all the magic schools. Durmstrang and Beauxbatons like to conceal their where- abouts so nobody can steal their secrets," said Hermione matter-of-- factly. Betsy: We know the times were bad enough to be > refered to as "dark" and "bloody". a_svirn: Yes, but we don't know who cause this "darkness" and "bloodiness" in the first place. Could have been wizards. > Betsy: There are Special Operation groups from all over the world who > could *easily* infiltrate the Burrow and subdue and capture any > Weasley on premise before a wand was drawn. The Burrow doesn't have > any warning system against Muggles, Mrs. Weasley isn't combat > trained, neither are the children. a_svirn First, we don't know what kind of warning system the Burrow has. Second, the kind of scenario you suggest can only be possible if the Weasleys are caught by surprise. But if there is an ongoing conflict with Muggles it's not likely. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 00:33:09 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:33:09 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125929 . > > GEO: To do any of the above tasks you mentioned would require an > enormous amount of work which we don't know if the wizards are even > capable of. To vanish all the nuclear, biological and chemical > stockpiles along with every bit of information on how to develop > them would mean modifying the memory of a significant portion of the > population not to mention going through and combing through millions > of books and destroying every piece of technology that uses nuclear > energy including nuclear energy plants which I think is beyond the > wizard's capability. > > Besides if they were capable of doing such a task why haven't they > obliviated the muggles back to a medieval or feudal era or back to > caveman status to make it easier to control them? a_svirn: Good question that. But don't forget that in feudal era wizards lived among Muggles and they probably didn't think there was a need to tamper Muggle technical progress because they profited from it too. Why they don't bother to take necessary precautions nowadays I cannot say. Probably jut being stupid. a_svirn From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 02:02:06 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 02:02:06 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125930 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > a_svirn: > They don't need to fight against the fully trained army. Wizards can > make themselves unplottable. GEO: But not easily or quickly or else DD wouldn't have used the old Black Family house as the headquarters for the order of the phoenix. And would being unplottable cloak yourself from aerial survillance drones or aircraft or from satellites? They can apparate to the Muggle > headquarters and after a few carefully applied Iperios make Muggles > to aim their amazing ships, planes etc at themselves. GEO: Elaborate please? They'd have to compromise the entire military command structure to do that imo and if they could why aren't they ruling the world instead of hiding from it as we see them in the HP books. From jacobalfredo at hotmail.com Fri Mar 11 09:16:14 2005 From: jacobalfredo at hotmail.com (albusthewhite) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:16:14 -0000 Subject: Pensieves, Potions, and Peril: The HBP Covers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125931 Arcum wrote: > > | And for the truly obsessive... why is Harry holding his wand in > > | his *left* hand in front of the pensieve/potion/artifact, when > > | he is, in fact, right handed? Punkie: > > I too have wondered about this. My assumption is that Mary GrandPre > is left handed. I've noticed that a lot of comics artists portray > their characters as left handed. So I assumed they were too. albusthewhite: Also, GrandPre has said that she uses herself as a model for posing the characters in her art. If she is right-handed, she would be seeing a left-hander in the mirror. But as a lefty, I like to think that this is the *real* Harry Potter -- what, after all, does Jo know? Harry's special in so very many ways -- why is he then just another righty when he could be something truly unique? ;^) From jacobalfredo at hotmail.com Fri Mar 11 14:04:16 2005 From: jacobalfredo at hotmail.com (albusthewhite) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:04:16 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and free will (was: Re: Did JKR cheat with the prophecy?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > > > vmonte responds: > > > > > > The Tom Riddle preserved in the diary was only a teenager. This > > > diary was made by Tom while he was at Hogwarts. And it did not > > > contain any future memories of the prophecy. > > > > > > Vivian > > Doddie here: [snip] > > > > You absolutely cannot use this arguement since "Diary Tom" would > > not have known about Harry Potter defeating him YEARS LATER, yet > > speaks about it in COS scene!!!! > > > now albusthewhite: Actually, you absolutely *can* use this argument, > because as Riddle himself says, "Well, you see, Ginny told me all > about you, Harry.... Your whole *fascinating* history" (CoS USHB > 311). TR doesn't have any memory beyond his (fifth?) year at > Hogwarts; the info on more current events is provided unwittingly by > Ginny in conversing (IMing?) with her diary. > > vmonte again: > > Actually, you can't. Ginny doesn't know anything about the prophecy, > neither does Harry (during CoS). Dumbledore tells Harry about the > prophecy during OOTP, 2 years later. So, all that Ginny could have > told TR about Harry is what is common knowledge in the WW. Basically, > that Voldemort was defeated by a baby--no details, nothing. > Vivian albusthewhite once more: Let's be clear about what this argument can and can not be used for: 1. TR *can* know about LV's (& his future) defeat at the hands of HP. Common knowledge, yes, but unknown to TR and certainly of interest to him. 2. TR can *not* find out about the prophecy from Ginny - b/c she doesn't know about it. But I don't believe that TR ever references the prophecy. If this is the case, then perhaps there's a Flint somewhere in here. No, TR d/n have any future memories of the prophecy - or of anything beyond the time of the diary's creation. But contrary to what Doddie says, TR certainly *can* find out about his defeat by HP. If the prophecy is the issue, and it is specifically mentioned by TR, then I don't know how to make sense of this without making it unnecessarily convoluted; but as I lay it out here, it at least makes sense to me. -- albus From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Mar 12 02:10:41 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 02:10:41 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125933 > Betsy: > Ah. This is where we part ways, I guess. I quite liked OotP. I > don't recall any scenes that I thought unnecessary to the plot, > nothing I would have cut. I liked how JKR ratched up the tension > and introduced more depth to the storyline. I love that not all of > Harry's enemies are minions of Voldemort. I love that friend and > foes are not easily identified and I love that Harry's choices are > not automatically correct. (Now if we could just work on dear > Hermione... ) I have to lean more more towards the Lupinlore side of things. I don't think it was quite as flawed as he, but I think JK made a few bad decisions. My opinion can pretty much be summed up like this--Too many people acted stupidly. The author needed the characters to get to a certain point by the end of the book and I think she had many of them act with a level of poor judgement that I found difficult to believe. I don't think that DD would make the decisions to act in OOTP the way he does. I cannot imagine a wizard of his power and wisdom thinking that way. It goes beyond showing him to have human falability and stretches believability. I don't believe Fudge would be quite so incompetent or stuff his head so far into the sand. And I definitely don't think Harry would ever really have forgetten the mirror. Aside from the mirror though, I pretty much think he acted about as on target as he could have with the lack of information he possessed. Spot on with Hermione though :) > I think we've gotten into discussions before about how the various > characters changed - I quite liked the changes and thought they > flowed well from previous books (i.e. Percy leaving the Weasleys, > Molly's breakdown, Neville's bravery and determination). Ginny was > a bit jarring. There could have been more foreshadowing in earlier > books there, though I did like Ginny's character. And I could have > done with more Draco (though I think his development for good or ill > should occur or at least start in the next book). But I liked the > new characters JKR introduced (pause for Luna love moment), and the > introduction of more folks not Gryffindor. Aside from Hermione, which I think suffers from to much authorial empathy, and Ginny, who I think was just flat out badly written, I think most of the characterizations were about the way I would have written them. If anything I would have written Cho to be more devastated and off balance. Neville is a masterful representation of a character who changes almost entirely off screen and based on only a few scenes with Harry, but was absolutely believeable (I'm looking at you Ginny). And the new characters were great. Before OOTP I didn't have a dog in the Harry/Shipping wars other than my dislike of HG and HHr but when I met Tonks and Luna I decided the ultimate Harry ship would be some sort of Harry/Luna/Tonks threesome. Although I would settle for just one of them ending up with Harry :) > she's said in an interview or two that she's had the final chapter > written for a long time now, mainly so she'd always know what she > was aiming for. And she's so keen on puzzles and riddles, I imagine > she's had to plan for every mystery's outcome. So I think we're > reading a series that has been very well planned out. I think that could have been one of the problems of OOTP. She had every so precisely planned out that she had to go ooc with a few of the characters to get the to the spot they needed to be even though it wouldn't really make since for them to do it, since she didn't have the room to allow for changes in her narrative. Phoenixgod2000 From snapesangel2002 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 11 16:49:31 2005 From: snapesangel2002 at yahoo.co.uk (laura) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:49:31 -0000 Subject: Snape as HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sharon" wrote: > > Some other posters have hinted that they think there is a possibility > that Snape is the HBP. I like your theory! This is quite a popular thread on the forums right now. I don't think the HBP is Snape (though I would *love* it if he was). At the moment I think it'll be a new character, but just for fun, here're some arguments for Snape being the Half-Blood Prince: 1)JK said ages ago we were going to get some juicy new info on Snape in book 6. 2)It would explain why Snape's name didn't leap out at Harry from the Black family tree - his 'blood-traitor' family were struck off. 3)JK avoided confirming whether Snape was a pure-blood at the EBF-Why? 4)Snape's an unlikely choice. 5)The potions book on the adult cover *must* have a strong link to the title - more significant than Harry sitting Advanced Potions. 6)Like Sharon said, the royalty link could explain why LV let half- blood Snape join the DEs. Can anyone add any more? After reading interview transcripts yesterday, I'm leaning towards the HBP being a current character more...JK said that she's laid her clues so we can't say she sprang new info on us (Stephen Fry interview 2003). We may be kicking ourselves come July 16th! > Sharon > Who stills see HBP as an abbreviation for High Blood Pressure Me too! Laura* From martyb1130 at aol.com Fri Mar 11 18:21:55 2005 From: martyb1130 at aol.com (martyb1130 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:21:55 EST Subject: The Prohecy Message-ID: <13c.ee15b93.2f633bc3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125935 I was just reading over OOTP and I was wondering why Lord Voldemort had so much "faith" in Trelawney. Everybody seems to think that she is loony and crazy. Why is it that Voldy would care so much about a Prophecy made by somebody who he knows nothing about? Besides the fact that a Prophecy is not always correct or true. Brodeur [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From martyb1130 at aol.com Fri Mar 11 18:27:01 2005 From: martyb1130 at aol.com (martyb1130 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:27:01 EST Subject: Mrs. Weasley's Love Potion Message-ID: <12e.59805e12.2f633cf5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125936 Whilst I was reading the POA it stated that "Mrs. Weasley was telling Ginny and Hermione, about a love potion that she had once made". Now I was under the assumption that those are illegal. Back in the past Hermione was once confronted about making a love potion but then somebody stated, that they are of course illegal at Hogwarts. Brodeur [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bree4378 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 01:36:51 2005 From: bree4378 at yahoo.com (Sabrina) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 01:36:51 -0000 Subject: Wild HBP Theory!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125937 Okey Dokey....after reading everyone's recent posts about who the HBP is, I have come up with a WILD!!! theory. I mean this is REALLY WILD. Even wilder than the theory that Crookshanks and Mundungus are one of the same : P I read some comments about Lily's appearance and the big issue of Harry having Lily's eyes. His mother's eyes. It is emphasized in the books, as well as in the PoA film. I think there is something very important behind this minor detail that keeps coming up. J. Rowling has also described Lily's appearance as being very different from Petunia. Again the eyes. There has also been a lot of discussion about Lily's love, being Harry's shield against LV. There have been some ideas going around about Lily being related to LV. Even a distant relation. I think there may be some truth to that. I think there is a relation, but not necessarily a BLOOD relation. With those thoughts, here is my theory..... Lily and Petunia are half sisters. I believe they have the same mother, but different fathers. Petunia was born first, and her mother had a second child Lily, by another man (Evans). I believe their mother had left Petunia's father when he started to do DARK magic. He had changed, became evil. YES, that's right....I believe Petunia's father is none other than the DARK Lord himself, Voldemort. Her mother found comfort with Evans, and had Lily. When Lily grew up, married James and chose to fight against Voldemort, he marked LILY as his target (opposed to any of the others who were fighting against him). The LOVE that Lily protected Harry with, was the same LOVE she got from her mother. In turn, that same LOVE was at one point given to LV (Tom Riddle at the time) with Petunia's birth being evidence of that. This explains the LOVE protection idea, and somewhat explains a connection between Harry and LV and/or Lily and LV. This theory can also explain the difference in Lily and Petunia's appearance (having different fathers, different eyes), and if eventually, Petunia ends up doing magic, this theory would explain that as well. So, the question was/is........who is the HBP? Well, with a purple- faced muggle for a father, and LV's daughter for a mother, its got to be........DUDLEY!!!! Hey.....I told you this would be a WILD!!!! theory, please give me your input, whether agreeing or debating. My cousin had thought LV was Lily's father, but I had pointed out that it is known that Lily is (excuse my language)a"mudblood." So it wasn't possible for LV to be her father. In my theory, Lily's parents could indeed have both been muggles, therefore truly making Lily a "mudblood". As for the question of Lily's red hair, I don't think at this point that it has anything to do with a Weasley relation. I think it may play a part in explaining an attraction to Ginny, if Harry were to develop feelings for her. From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 12 02:49:10 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:49:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups]"other ways of destroying a man . . ." In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050312024910.37519.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125938 In Ch.36 of OOTP when DD and LV are battling in the MOM, DD sends various spells toward LV while LV appears to mainly rely upon AK. "You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?" called Voldemort, [snip] "Above such brutality, are you?" "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom," Dumbledore said calmly, continuing to walk toward Voldemort as though he had not a fear in the world, [snip], "Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit--" "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" snarled Voldemort. "You are quite wrong," said Dumbledore, [snip] "Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness--" This little exchange has always intrigued me--especially the DD's comment about LV knowing of other ways to destroy a man. That whole statement seems to me laced with insinuation and history. Obviously (I think) DD and LV have a shared history. DD has been a foe to LV from early. What, I wonder, did Tom [LV] do to destroy someone close to DD for that is what it seems like to me. I think Tom did something horrible that DD knew about or witnessed or learned about and that is when Tom became LV and DD began a life set-out to defeat LV. I realize this comment could be a general one acknowledging the many horrors LV performed or had a hand in--the Longbottoms come to mind--but it seems more personal than that. DD is almost gruesome when he says "merely taking your life would not satisfy me." Has this been discussed? Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 12 02:58:04 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:58:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wild HBP Theory!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050312025804.43987.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125939 Sabrina wrote: [snip] >Lily and Petunia are half sisters. I believe they have the same >mother, but different fathers. Petunia was born first, and her >mother had a second child Lily, by another man (Evans). I believe >their mother had left Petunia's father when he started to do DARK >magic. He had changed, became evil. YES, that's right....I >believe Petunia's father is none other than the DARK Lord himself, >Voldemort. [snip] I for one think that is BRILLIANT! I would be very surprised if it turned out to be true--but absolutely brilliant deduction! LV is tall and thin like Petunia. I just don't want Dudley infringing upon Harry's life at Hogwarts. Besides he would have to be a bungling prince since he has no training and he would probably go over to the dark side anyway. Brilliant post though. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 03:00:17 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 03:00:17 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125940 Phoenixgod: I have to lean more more towards the Lupinlore side of things. I don't think it was quite as flawed as he, but I think JK made a few bad decisions. My opinion can pretty much be summed up like this-- Too many people acted stupidly. The author needed the characters to get to a certain point by the end of the book and I think she had many of them act with a level of poor judgement that I found difficult to believe. I don't think that DD would make the decisions to act in OOTP the way he does. I cannot imagine a wizard of his power and wisdom thinking that way. It goes beyond showing him to have human falability and stretches believability. I don't believe Fudge would be quite so incompetent or stuff his head so far into the sand. And I definitely don't think Harry would ever really have forgetten the mirror. Aside from the mirror though, I pretty much think he acted about as on target as he could have with the lack of information he possessed. Alla: I am starting to think that you are my long lost twin. :o) That IS indeed the main problem that bothered me with OOP. I have no problem with Harry's journey so far ( unless indeed his OOP issues will be dropped under the rug in HBP, which I doubt), but overwhelming stupidity of many , especially Dumbledore was too much to swallow for me. Yes, we learned that he is human, NO I don't think that he should be drawed as perfect, but I just did not believe that he would have made as MANY mistakes as he did. It is NOT the first time he leads the war against the Dark Lord. I did not expect him to act as he did, not at all. I did not expect him to forget the human psychology that much. I have to say though, I had no problem with Fudge's characterization. Very annoyed, yes, but pretty much expected it after GoF. Phoenixgod: Spot on with Hermione though :) Alla: Well, very true that is, but I happen to agree with those who think that JKR set Hermione up for huge lapse of judgment in the next books. It is about time that she learned that she can NOT be right all the time. Yes, if she is going to be always right in the next books, always, always, always, I am afraid I will stop calling her Hermione and start calling her "Mary Sue"- Hermione. For now, I am willing to wait. Phoenixgod: Before OOTP I didn't have a dog in the Harry/Shipping wars other than my dislike of HG and HHr but when I met Tonks and Luna I decided the ultimate Harry ship would be some sort of Harry/Luna/Tonks threesome. Although I would settle for just one of them ending up with Harry :) Alla: LOLOL! Somehow I don't think JKR will go for threesome, although I can enjoy any one of those girls with Harry, I would just like to see more development for Luna first. Just my opinion, Alla. From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 12 03:10:33 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 03:10:33 -0000 Subject: Wild HBP Theory!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125941 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com "Sabrina" (Message 125937) > Lily and Petunia are half sisters. I believe they have the same > mother, but different fathers. Petunia was born first, and her > mother had a second child Lily, by another man (Evans). I believe > their mother had left Petunia's father when he started to do DARK > magic. He had changed, became evil. YES, that's right....I >believe Petunia's father is none other than the DARK Lord himself, > Voldemort. "K": Hi Sabrina. Though I believe it is possible for Lily and Petunia to be half-sisters, Voldemort is not the father of Petunia. Here is a quote from an interview with JK Rowling: ~J.K. Rowling's World Book Day Chat: March 4, 2004 Harry: Has Voldemort any children? JK Rowling replies -> No. Voldemort as a father... now that's not a nice thought. Sabrina: >As for the question of Lily's red hair, I don't think at this point >that it has anything to do with a Weasley relation. I think it may >play a part in explaining an attraction to Ginny, if Harry were to >develop feelings for her. "K": I've never been much of a 'shipper' where the kids are concerned but I must admit I've taken a liking to Harry and Ginny. I doubt Harry's future attraction to Ginny ;-) will have anything to do with his mother/Ginny. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 03:23:30 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 03:23:30 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125942 >>Phoenixgod: >I have to lean more more towards the Lupinlore side of things. I don't think it was quite as flawed as he, but I think JK made a few bad decisions. My opinion can pretty much be summed up like this-- Too many people acted stupidly.< Betsy: Usually I'm pretty good at catching that sort of story error. I don't recall anything standing out to me in OotP. The way I see things, the reason for conflict in this book is Dumbledore keeping Harry out of the loop. Every action taken by the various characters was influenced by that decision. And I thought they all reacted as their characters would react. All of the Order members followed Dumbledore's lead. Molly thought Dumbledore was completely correct. Sirius had his doubts but didn't press Dumbledore too far. Lupin followed Sirius's lead. Snape obeyed absolutely, and gave no clue as to his real opinion. I also fully believed Dumbledore's reasoning (as I've gone into in other posts ) mistaken though the reasoning was. >>Phoenixgod: >I don't think that DD would make the decisions to act in OOTP the way he does. I cannot imagine a wizard of his power and wisdom thinking that way. It goes beyond showing him to have human falability and stretches believability.< Betsy I guess I've always felt that Dumbledore had a wizard's amount of power, but a human's amount of wisdom. He's been a warrior, yes. He took down Grindelwald, possibly by himself? Has he ever trained someone to go up against a dark wizard before? It's a hugely different role, and I can't think it's easy on him knowing that this small boy is the only person who has a chance of defeating Voldemort. (And I think it's also important to remember that Dumbledore taught Tom Riddle.) He's been alive for a long time, but not *that* long a time. And what he's trying to do for Harry is new to him, as far as I can tell. As far as JKR has shared with us anyway. So I don't expect him to fully fill the shoes of the "wise old man" so common in myths and so beautifully illustrated by Tolkien. Dumbledore is being overprotective of Harry. In OotP (but not before then, I think) this protectiveness was a mistake. Dumbledore's wisdom is in recognizing his mistake and quite possibly learning from it (we'll see in HBP). >>Phoenixgod: >I don't believe Fudge would be quite so incompetent or stuff his head so far into the sand.< Betsy: Now this is *completely* believable to me. It's happened too many times in RL to be dismissed so easily. Chamberlain is one historic figure that springs to mind. Plus, Fudge has Lucius working on him in the background. And JKR set it up as early as PoA that Fudge was a coward, completely unwilling to stand up to public opinion. Fudge is one character quite comfortable in burying his head in the sand. >>Phoenixgod: >And I definitely don't think Harry would ever really have forgetten the mirror.< Betsy: Yeah, the mirror is a little harder to believe. Of course when I read OotP *I* forgot about the mirror - so it didn't throw me out of the story. But Harry has a pretty stong will, I could see him putting something out of his mind if he decided to. Plus, he was pretty panicked when he was trying to get a hold of Sirius (and he was under a small amount of Voldemort's influence). He didn't even think of contacting Snape, and he was fully aware of Snape being a part of the Order. >>Phoenixgod: >Aside from Hermione, which I think suffers from to much authorial empathy, and Ginny, who I think was just flat out badly written, I think most of the characterizations were about the way I would have written them.< Betsy: I'm withholding judgement on Hermione until after the final chapter is written. There are things about the character that I don't like, and I'm still not sure if JKR is consciously putting those things in and there'll be a reckoning later on, or if she just bugs me at times, and that's all there is to it. This essay by No Remorse is interesting - as is the comment thread: http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/41723.html It theorizes that *Hermoine* will be the member of the Trio to die - not Ron. As to Ginny: I like her. I think she's good for Harry in that she doesn't tip-toe around him. I'm not sure about their ship potential... Erm, I'm lying. I'm pretty sure JKR will end the books H/G and R/Hr, as per the foreshadowing anyway (unless, of course, Hermione dies). I'm just not sure I like it. But I do wish JKR had developed Ginny as smoothly as she developed Neville. (Though the roughness may mean that Ginny isn't going to play a huge role in the upcoming books.) >>Phoenixgod: >Before OOTP I didn't have a dog in the Harry/Shipping wars other than my dislike of HG and HHr but when I met Tonks and Luna I decided the ultimate Harry ship would be some sort of Harry/Luna/Tonks threesome. Although I would settle for just one of them ending up with Harry :)< Betsy: I like Ron with Luna. I think Luna already has a bit of a crush on him, and I think Ron deserves to have someone interested in him. Plus, Luna seems to like Ron just as he is, so yay, Luna! Betsy From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Sat Mar 12 03:49:29 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:49:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wild HBP Theory!!! In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050312034929.37601.qmail@web53307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125943 theotokos wrote: Sabrina wrote: [snip] >Lily and Petunia are half sisters. I believe they have the same >mother, but different fathers. Petunia was born first, and her >mother had a second child Lily, by another man (Evans). I believe >their mother had left Petunia's father when he started to do DARK >magic. He had changed, became evil. YES, that's right....I >believe Petunia's father is none other than the DARK Lord himself, >Voldemort. [snip] I for one think that is BRILLIANT! I would be very surprised if it turned out to be true--but absolutely brilliant deduction! LV is tall and thin like Petunia. I just don't want Dudley infringing upon Harry's life at Hogwarts. Besides he would have to be a bungling prince since he has no training and he would probably go over to the dark side anyway. Brilliant post though. Theotokos Luckdragon: In one of Jo's interviews she says Voldemort has not had any children, so I'm afraid this idea will not come to fruition. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kelly at protocallonline.com Sat Mar 12 07:19:27 2005 From: kelly at protocallonline.com (kellymcj2000) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:19:27 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Vivian says: He may realize that what he has to do is go > back to the past to fullfill some role he played there. > > When he does go back he will be mistaken for James by the DEs, but > found out by Snape because he has his mother's eyes. > > Vivian Wow Vivian, I'd accuse you of legilimancy but for that eye contact is necessary.:) I've also been expecting the Lily's eyes clue to mean Harry will go back in time and be msitaken for James until someone notices the eyes are wrong. I never considered though that Lily may have stored memories in a pensieve. That's very interesting. If she did, why? Would it be something she did as a result of knowing the prophecy? The idea of Snape making the connection is really intriguing. Not only would he realize this person was not James, but he would also know it was Lily and James' son because he himself knows Lily's eyes so well. This last bit is assuming all the speculation about Snape crushing on Lily is true. Maybe it's even Snape's memory in the pensieve and Lily has nothing to do with it. Now I have to back up a bit because there is more than one major plot line going on in this scenario. If something akin to your thoughts is right, it might explain Snape's apparent loyalty to DD and his DE defection. It always seems to me as if Snape doesn't really want to be on DD's side and I've often wondered why (assuming he didn't truly have a change of heart) he works with the Order and DD. That is, if he really is working for them and isn't a double agent DE sort of thingy. Is Snape playing nice with DD because the Harry-from-the-future saves Snape and really cements the whole wizard life debt? Or maybe something else happens in his encounter with 'He-who-must-not-be- James' which binds him to some sort of magical law about experiencing someone else's future. Just imagine if he knew of the prophecy (maybe he was the one thrown out of Hog's Head?) and then ran into this guy who looks just like James but has Lily's eyes. Or imaginge he didn't know about any prophecy at all and ran into all-grown-up-Harry and figured out who he(Harry)was? I'm not saying any of this really happened or even could have happened. If he'd been the one thrown out DD would probably know that. All right, so maybe we'd be looking at an explanation of Snape changing sides, if in fact he ever really did. This could also add another layer of explaination for Snape hating Harry but being bound to protect him, whether or not one assumes the James life-debt and/or working for the Order provides enough explanation. I never have btw. Then there's the whole possible Lily storyline. Did she store memories in a pensieve and why? Maybe the big secret about Lily is that she's a true seer and she saw something of Harry's future and recorded it in the pensieve. Snape mightn't even be involved at all. Maybe she leaves a message for Harry because she knows what's to come. Actually, this doesn't even have to involve Harry going back in time and having her eyes at all. So, anyhow Vivian, thanks for some more fuel for the Harry/Lily's eyes/time-turner theory. As my tcfw sis would say-Tote Awes! From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Mar 12 07:22:11 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:22:11 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125945 > Betsy: > And what he's trying to do for Harry is new > to him, as far as I can tell. As far as JKR has shared with us > anyway. So I don't expect him to fully fill the shoes of the "wise > old man" so common in myths and so beautifully illustrated by > Tolkien. A human's amount of wisdom can be a whole lot. I expect better from DD. He's spend (probably) around twelve or thirteen *decades* as a teacher or headmaster of people exactly like Harry. And based on some of the earlier conversations with Harry (Mirror of Erisod), I get the feeling that he was probably a really, really good teacher, which speaks of a certain level of insight to the student psyche. after so long a time he should know that students make better decisions when they are given all the information possible. I cannot fathom that he would ever make the mistake of witholding information. I just can't wrap my mind around it. He should just know better. But then again I don't understand why he doesn't personally tutor Harry, either. That would be first thing I would do if I knew what DD does. > Betsy: > Now this is *completely* believable to me. It's happened too many > times in RL to be dismissed so easily. Chamberlain is one historic > figure that springs to mind. Plus, Fudge has Lucius working on him > in the background. And JKR set it up as early as PoA that Fudge was > a coward, completely unwilling to stand up to public opinion. Fudge > is one character quite comfortable in burying his head in the sand. Okay, you're probably right about Fudge. I suppose it is sort of believable. My problem with him is that he is painted which such a broad brush he seems more of a caricature of a Chamberlin than a realistic portrayal of one. I just find it hard to believe anyone could be quite that blind. Blind to reality yes, but Fudge is just so stupid I can't quite believe it. > Betsy: > I'm withholding judgement on Hermione until after the final chapter > is written. There are things about the character that I don't like, > and I'm still not sure if JKR is consciously putting those things in > and there'll be a reckoning later on, or if she just bugs me at > times, and that's all there is to it. Probably a little of both. I'm hoping Hermione really learns the lesson of humility that she so desperately needs. > This essay by No Remorse is interesting - as is the comment thread: > http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/41723.html > It theorizes that *Hermoine* will be the member of the Trio to die - > not Ron. I don't believe that any of the trio are going to die but it is an interesting article. > As to Ginny: I like her. I think she's good for Harry in that she > doesn't tip-toe around him. I'm not sure about their ship > potential... Erm, I'm lying. I'm pretty sure JKR will end the books > H/G and R/Hr, as per the foreshadowing anyway (unless, of course, > Hermione dies). I'm just not sure I like it. But I do wish JKR had > developed Ginny as smoothly as she developed Neville. (Though the > roughness may mean that Ginny isn't going to play a huge role in the > upcoming books.) Ginny bugs. What you call not tip-toeing around Harry, I call obnoxiousness. Harry needs a sweet girl, not a little dominating Molly in the making (which is how I see Ginny). I'll feel a little better about them if Harry has at least one real girlfriend before he hooks up with Ginny, but right now, considering her greater experience in the dating world, I don't think they are on a level playing field. I'm firmly convinced that the books will end R/Hr, but I hope you are right and Ginny doesn't play a huge role in the upcoming books, I fear, however, the opposite is true. Maybe she's going to play a huge role and JK needed her to be advanced to the level where she could particpate more fully--so she used shorthand to advance her character. I also think that HG is the most likly ending Harry/Ship, but I pray it ain't so. > I like Ron with Luna. I think Luna already has a bit of a crush on > him, and I think Ron deserves to have someone interested in him. > Plus, Luna seems to like Ron just as he is, so yay, Luna! I don't think there is any question that Luna likes Ron and I think that in the next book he is going to go out on at least one date with her. I think Luna is going to serve as a bridge between Ron and Hermione, somehow acting as the catalyst that brings them together. Which is a shame because I think Ron would be happier with someone like Luna than with Hermione. I can't really see anyone could be happy with a girl who wants to act like your mom, but based on who my friends date, I suppose there are people out there who like the idea. I still see a connection between Harry and Luna and I think she could be good for him. She isn't as in your face agressive as Ginny but neither is she quite as passive in the face of Harry's anger like Hermione. She's more like a reed bending in the wind, a young Taoist sage in the making. Someone who can flow with Harry's anger and divert it without agression. phoenixgod2000, who also thinks we haven't heard the last on Susan Bones when it comes to the Harry shipping front. She's my dark horse in the race for Harry's love. From kelly at protocallonline.com Sat Mar 12 07:37:39 2005 From: kelly at protocallonline.com (kellymcj2000) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:37:39 -0000 Subject: It's Libatius (Was: News Flash! HBP covers released!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125946 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > > Carol notes: > > There's a whole thread (or maybe more than one) on the subject over at > OT Chatter. Borage, it appears, is a plant used in wine to create a > calming effect; Libatius, as other posters have noted, relates to > "libation," which can mean a drink, usually wine, spilled on the > ground in honor of the gods (or a king), or to the wine itself. Maybe > Libatius became "libatious" from drinking too much borage wine? At any > rate, it's the kind of joke JKR usually makes in creating imaginary > authors for her textbooks. > Hi Carol and anyone else reading this Borage can have many effects and one of them is 'strenghening of the heart'. Certainly, it would benefit Harry to have a borage type potion on hand. Borage was believed to provide some resistence to snake venom. Bees like to hang out and build hives near borage. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Mar 12 07:45:40 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:45:40 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125947 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: phoenixgod2000: > Okay, you're probably right about Fudge. I suppose it is sort of > believable. My problem with him is that he is painted which such a > broad brush he seems more of a caricature of a Chamberlin than a > realistic portrayal of one. I just find it hard to believe anyone > could be quite that blind. Blind to reality yes, but Fudge is just > so stupid I can't quite believe it. Geoff: Fudge compares pretty well with Neville Chamberlain and the UK Government - and a large chunk of Joe Public if you look back. The country didn't want a war and felt that, if they continued giving Hitler what he wanted, all would be well. Look at the reception he got when he came back from Munich in 1938 with his infamous piece of paper having given half of Czechoslovakia away. This is Fudge precisely. If you pretend that Voldemort isn't there, he'll go away. From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Sat Mar 12 09:43:51 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 09:43:51 -0000 Subject: DD as HBP/Heir of Gryffindor (was: HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125948 > Dungrollin: > > However, I'm now toying with the idea that there was a prophecy > > about the founders... Binns says: > > "The story goes that Slytherin had built a hidden chamber in the > > castle, of which the other founders knew nothing...." > > The other founders knew nothing, right. So where did the legend > > come from then, I wonder? Perhaps Salazar wasn't above a bit of > > bragging in the pub. Or was there a prophecy about the heir of > > Slytherin? "... and none will come after ..." - No more > > descendents of Slytherin? Either Voldy will live forever, or the > > Slytherin line will end when he dies. > > > SSSusan: > What I'm curious about in *this* part of your post, Dungrollin, is > how DD's possibly being the HBP and GG's descendant would play > into this. If the last heir of Slytherin needs to be wiped out, > we know it is only going to happen by one of the Prophecy Boys, > not by DD's hand. So if DD is the HBP and GG's descendant, what > is the role he would be playing in the elimination of Slytherin's > final descendant? > Just because it's Harry who'll cast the AK (or whatever) doesn't mean that he can do it without DD's help (in fact, if DD hadn't saved the day Voldy could have won several times over by now). And who says the heir of Slytherin has to be killed by a descendant of Gryffindor, anyway? I was thinking more along the lines of a prophecy predicting that Gryffindor and Slytherin would fall out, and the chamber and stuff, and maybe even an intergenerational feud between the two families. It could be specific enough to say that a descendant of Gryffindor would discover the means of destroying the heir of Slytherin, but that the heir of Slytherin will kill him. Which makes a kind of twisted sense, actually - if DD has known for 30 years that Voldy is going to kill him, he's got to plan very very carefully so that Harry is prepared enough to continue the fight once he's popped his clogs. Which brings me onto something else. I'm convinced that DD knows a *lot* about Voldy that he hasn't told yet. "...knowing him as I have done..." The nature of his immortality experiments, for example; and the circumstances of his birth, the murders of his father and grandparents, all that stuff and more. Didn't Arthur Levine say in that interview when the cover illustration was unveiled that we'd learn a lot more about Voldemort in HBP? I think it's time for some filling in on what he got up to in VW1, and indeed what he did on his holidays beforehand. Anyway, I'm not convinced that the HBP has to have anything to do with royalty. "... champion of commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles ..." - it does sound like a eulogy, doesn't it? If DD's for the chop, then I'd expect the book he dies in to be named in his honour - JKR is rather fond of him, after all, and she did as much for Sirius. Dungrollin It's black armband time again, the world is a much less interesting place without Dave Allen. From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Sat Mar 12 03:54:00 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 03:54:00 -0000 Subject: DD as HBP/Heir of Gryffindor (was: HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125949 Dungrollin: > > However, I'm now toying with the idea that there was a prophecy > > about the founders... Binns says: > > "The story goes that Slytherin had built a hidden chamber in the > > castle, of which the other founders knew nothing...." > > The other founders knew nothing, right. So where did the legend > > come from then, I wonder? Perhaps Salazar wasn't above a bit of > > bragging in the pub. Or was there a prophecy about the heir of > > Slytherin? "... and none will come after ..." - No more descendents > > of Slytherin? Either Voldy will live forever, or the Slytherin line > > will end when he dies. > > > SSSusan: > What I'm curious about in *this* part of your post, Dungrollin, is > how DD's possibly being the HBP and GG's descendant would play into > this. If the last heir of Slytherin needs to be wiped out, we know > it is only going to happen by one of the Prophecy Boys, not by DD's > hand. So if DD is the HBP and GG's descendant, what is the role he > would be playing in the elimination of Slytherin's final descendant? John: Judging by the new cover (UK kids edition) DD looks to be down for the count. At least it looks as if he'll go out in a blaze (literally) of glory. I'd agree that DD definitely has some sort of significant connection to Gryffindor; perhaps he is GG's HEIR, as opposed to descendant (this would mirror neatly the differing ideologies of GG & SS). Before he does "go out" perhaps he'll pass on that title to prophecy- boy-Harry, who we know DD holds in great esteem. Perhaps "the heir of GG" *is* "the Half-Blood Prince"?? Anyway, this scenario would pave the way for GG and SS, through Harry and Voldy, to nuke it out in book seven. What do you think? John, enjoying being part of a community where he can put forth the wildest, most half-baked ideas without being persecuted. From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Sat Mar 12 09:02:12 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Kate Williams) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 09:02:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All the possible OWLS - Who got what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050312090212.59731.qmail@web86707.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125950 bboyminn: Based on my best quess, I see Harry (and probably Ron) getting 6 OWLs for sure, and the 7th would hinge on whether he/they did well in Astronomy, which if you remember, was interupted by the attack on Hagrid. I suspect Harry could have gotten an additional OWL if he had taken the time to take the Muggle Studies test. That wouldn't be a guaranteed pass because it's really not about Muggles, but about wizard's view of muggles. So, 6 OWLs most likely, and 8 at the absolute most for Harry, and 6, possibly 7, for Ron. Not bad, not bad at all. (Assuming one OWL per subject.) Fitzov: Has anyone considered the possibility that Harry fails Defence against the Dark Arts? I have long held the suspicion that the 'nasty smile playing on Umbridge's lips' as Harry leaves the DADA exam, means that she has just intervened to fail him. Possibly she placed the examiner under an Imperious curse? If Harry does fail, then I am willing to guess that there is no justice in the Magical World that would enable Harry's mark to be reinstated. This would entirely mess up his future career as an Auror. Any thoughts. Fitzov From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Sat Mar 12 11:03:15 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:03:15 -0000 Subject: the falling-out of the hogwarts four Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125951 I'm relatively new `round these parts, so pardon my ignorance if this has been discussed already What exactly precipitated such a fall-out between the Hogwarts founders (namely SS and the others)? I get the impression, having gleaned from the books what little information is available on this subject, that we haven't quite been given the full picture here. The creation of different houses, one for each of the founders four, suggests that the four had already acknowledged their differences, found a solution and moved on. So why exactly did disagreement spring up, the like of which led to fighting and dueling and, ultimately, SS leaving (being banished from?) the school?? Enlighten me, oh wise ones! John From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Sat Mar 12 10:38:12 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:38:12 -0000 Subject: The Prohecy In-Reply-To: <13c.ee15b93.2f633bc3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125952 Brodeur wrote: > > I was just reading over OOTP and I was wondering why Lord Voldemort had so > much "faith" in Trelawney. Everybody seems to think that she is loony and > crazy. Why is it that Voldy would care so much about a Prophecy made by somebody > who he knows nothing about? Besides the fact that a Prophecy is not always > correct or true. John: Those odd trances, such as Trelawney occasionally drifts into, seem to be the only way of distinguishing a *real* prophecy from a false one. Voldy, having heard of the symptoms of ST's condition from his informant, must have deduced that the prophecy was genuine. John, on the whole dissatisfied with the very notion of a "prophecy." From jsmith4973 at aol.com Sat Mar 12 12:07:46 2005 From: jsmith4973 at aol.com (jsmith4973 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:07:46 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who, exactly, is Petunia Message-ID: <29.6ec58373.2f643592@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125953 In a message dated 02/15/2005 1:47:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, meltowne at yahoo.com writes: << With all the discussions about why Dumbledore left Harry with the Dursleys, I've been thinking about Aunt Petunia. I think there's much more to Petunia than we are led to believe. Remember, what we know about her is all from Harry's perspective. I think she is a witch hiding in deep cover. Vernon is as much a muggle as Harry believes, and she uses that to her advantage as part of her disguise. >> ----------------- This is interesting. Could one speculate that if Petunia were indeed a witch in a very deep closet, she might have failed to make the cut for Hogwarts when she was 11, and this adds to her attitude? Especially as her younger sister, (pretty, desirable, talented, popular,) became a respected member of the WW. 'If you can't lick 'em, join 'em....' Or, if you can't join 'em, put them down as 'awful, worthless, evil, etc....' Jeanne From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 12 13:11:45 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:11:45 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125954 > > Amy wrote: I have often asked myself this same question. I mean if anyone > isgoing to get 12 OWLs it will be Hermione. > > > > I like your[Hannah's] idea that maybe there are different types of OWLs within each subject. I truly believe that this would make the most since and would simulate our own educational testing. > > Brent replied: > > I always assumed the practical and written were considered 2 > separate OWLs. In the book they are worded that way. I remember it sounding > > like they were described as the Written OWL and practical OWL like they are 2 different things. > Sandy replied: > I've previously posted several > pieces of canon that support the one-subject, one-OWL position ; but briefly, in their talks to classes about OWLs, > both Snape and McGonagall tell the students "I expect you to earn an OWL" in this subject, and those are both subjects that would break > down into 2 OWLs is you beleive practical earns a second OWL. I don't think either Snape or MM would be settle for their students only earning one OWL when 2 are possible. Also, > Parvati says "Isn't there a practical bit on our DADA OWL?" clearly indicating practical and theory are combined. Hannah now: Yes, I agree with you Sandy (some good arguments there), and I'll add on my own favourite arguments against the 'separate OWLs for practical and theory' hypothesis. Firstly, it makes no sense from an academic point of view. OK, I know that is true of quite a few things about Hogwarts that are canon, but I still think it stands. If OWLs were awarded separately for practical and theory, then what would be the incentive for a lot of kids who don't like memorising things, writing essays, etc. to bother with the theory side? If you can get your practical Charms OWL and perform the magic you want, why would you bother to do all the book learning if you don't enjoy it? And likewise, what would be the use of a Charms theory OWL if you were actually incapable of performing any of the Charms? In fact, if this were the case, a Muggle could go in and pass the theory OWLs if they were taught the facts. I think the theory and the practical for magic are inextricably linked, rather like science in the RL. You don't have two separate GCSEs (RL OWL equivalent) for 'practical science' and 'theoretical science.' Rather the science exam is made up of both a theoretical and a practical element. If you understand the theory but cannot actually design and perform experiments, you can't be an effective scientist (I left the profession for that very reason - too clumsy), but likewise it's no good being able to perform the practical parts without any understanding of the theory behind what you're trying to do. The same goes for other subjects, like music, PE, drama etc. I see magic in the same way. My other argument, in addition to those given already by other posters, is when McGonagall talks to Harry about the grades needed to be an Auror. She is talking about Transfiguration, Charms, Potions, DADA - all the subjects that are most often suggested as being separated into two elements. But she doesn't say 'and that means both parts, practical and theory' and nor does Harry ask if it has to be for both parts, or either part, or one part more than the other. Just my opinion. Roll on July... Hannah From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 13:20:10 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:20:10 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin For Real? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125955 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alshainofthenorth" wrote: > > > Do you think Remus is portrayed realistically as a teacher, in terms > of his personality rather than knowledge? For plot reasons, he has to > be a good teacher, and JKR has written him as her pedagogic ideal. > From day one, he outdoes fabled fictional teachers like Mr Chips or > John Keating (of Dead Poets' Society) - not for him Hagrid's slow > tortuous journey of trial and error. While his suitcase > with "Professor R.J. Lupin" in peeling letters hints that it's not > his first teaching job, it's still circumstantial evidence. > > But in the same breath JKR's described him as a person with profound > issues, as someone who desperately needs to be liked. He rates fairly > low on the scale of self-esteem and self-respect as well. How would > he deal with a situation where he'd have to disappoint his students? > > As JKR writes his lessons, he doesn't seem to have any troubles with > upholding his authority, but we only see him with the third-year > Gryffindors. Where would he be if one substituted a bunch of hostile > seventh-year Slytherins who'd only be too happy to challenge him? Or - > horror of horrors - an over-large class in an inner-city state > school. Would he handle it just as well? I'm not sure, so I hope > someone could convince me. Is it just that he's done some growing up > from his easily cowed teenage self and only has one weak point > (making Dumbledore disappointed) left, or is he too good to be true? > > Alshain > (who if she could add to her Remus-centric fanfic now would add a > couple of diary entries where he wails about unruly classes) Teacher weighing in here: Interestingly, I recall in one of my education courses having a professor say that teachers are among the most insecure professionals out there, lol. The resulting discussion explored the ways that teaching forces us to be very reflective and introspective about our lessons - did this strategy work as well as I'd planned? If not, why not? What can I do better next time? - as a regular part of our jobs. Add in media attacks on incompetency in the educational system, and you end up with a lot of self-questioning in the profession. In that respect, I think Lupin fits in just fine with the rest of us neurotic personalities. :) As far as wanting to be liked, some teachers function quite well not caring if they are liked or not, but my personal experience has confirmed that students will learn better if the teacher can make a personal connection with them. I don't need to be liked, but it makes for far fewer discipline problems, believe it or not. Maybe it's a matter of mutual respect, or of lessening the "us vs. them" mentality, but either way it works. Within that atmosphere, if a student disagrees or challenges my knowledge, I invite them to do the research and come back to me with facts supporting their position. If they have a valid point I acknowledge it. Now, maybe things would be different with a bunch of snarky Slytherins, but if they can't support their challenge, it seems as though they'd have to drop it. Would Lupin respond this way? Maybe - I could easily see him respecting their right to disagree and encouraging them to go that extra step and backing up their assertions with research. I do feel that Lupin has matured out of the complete inaction seen in the Pensieve, and would be happy to have him as part of my teaching team in my RL school. :) Lorel From stbjohn2 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 14:30:47 2005 From: stbjohn2 at yahoo.com (stbjohn2) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:30:47 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS - Who got what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125957 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stbjohn2" wrote: > > > > --- > > > > Amy wrote: > > > > > > > > ... if anyone is going to get 12 OWLs it will be Hermione. > > > > > > > > I like your[Hannah's] idea that maybe there are different > > > > types of OWLs within each subject. I truly believe that this > > > > would make the most sense ... > > > > > > Brent says: > > > I always assumed the practical and written were considered 2 > > > separate OWLs. ... > > > > Sandy now: > > > > From the 2004 World Book Day Chat: > > > > faye109: Is 12 the maximum possible number of OWLs one can achieve? > > > > JK Rowling replies -> Yes, I think it is off the top of my head. > > > > ... she says 12 is the most, so we have to trust her. Every > > convoluted method of assigning two OWLs in some subjects exceeds 12. >> > I've previously posted several pieces of canon that support the > > one-subject, one-OWL position; but briefly, in their talks to > > classes about OWLs, both Snape and McGonagall tell the students "I > > expect you to earn an OWL" in this subject, ... > > > > I guess we, like Harry, will find out for sure in July :>) > > > > > bboyminn: > >> > Having said all that, I think it is most likely that JKR created 12 > subject and assumed one OWL per subject, without really sitting down > and analyzing the details of that OWL testing system. And that is a > reasonable thing for an author to do. Sandy: I agree, and that's what sent me looking through canon for support to begin with. bboyminn wrote: > (Accidently snipped the part where Steve suggests students can sit an OWL without taking the class.) Sandy: I'm willing to buy that -- it's a lot more comforting to think of Barty Crouch Jr. joining the 12 OWL Club because he spent holidays boning up on extra textbooks, rather than running around with a time turner for a couple of terms. bboyminn wrote: > > Conclusion, I think it is safe to say that Hermione got 11 OWLs (getting one in Muggle Studies without taking class); as to > the 12th, that hinges on whether you think she would bother with the > Divinations test,... Sandy: I'm just curious why she'd bother with either, or what point it would serve in the story -- except to really irritate Ron, which is always fun. JKR has already told us that bravery and friendship are more important than books and cleverness. She's put her heroes in the house of the brave, not of the studious. She's shown us members of the 12 OWLs Club who aren't the best role models (Barty...) So why go through the trouble of getting HG to 11 or 12 OWLs? Only time will tell, so I'm eagerly awaiting Harry's OWL owl in July.. From jxsvt at juno.com Sat Mar 12 14:16:50 2005 From: jxsvt at juno.com (jxsvt) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:16:50 -0000 Subject: HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125958 "My guess (well actually my bf's but I think its a good one) is Hagrid. He is a half-blood and we don't know much about his giant side. Serina Moonsilver, June 2004" I've thought that, too. It would especially fit well if John Granger's alchemical analysis of the HP series is correct. Granger identifies the rubedo stage with Rubeus Hagrid. I know, the alchemical process has to go through the albedo stage before it gets to the rubedo, but the rubedo agent could certainly be identified a book early. It took two books (GoF and OotP) to get through the negredo stage. On the other hand, what would be the benefit of being a prince of giants? From the glimpse we got of them in OotP it doesn't seem that their social institutions are particularly stable. This is my first posting. Hope I got it right, especially the quote. -Jer From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 14:52:10 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:52:10 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and free will (was: Re: Did JKR cheat with the prophecy?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125959 > I vmonte again: Actually, you can't. Ginny doesn't know anything about the prophecy, neither does Harry (during CoS). Dumbledore tells Harry about the prophecy during OOTP, 2 years later. So, all that Ginny could have told TR about Harry is what is common knowledge in the WW. Basically, that Voldemort was defeated by a baby--no details, nothing. Vivian >albusthewhite once more: Let's be clear about what this argument can and can not be used for: 1. TR *can* know about LV's (& his future) defeat at the hands of HP. Common knowledge, yes, but unknown to TR and certainly of interest to him. 2. TR can *not* find out about the prophecy from Ginny - b/c she doesn't know about it. But I don't believe that TR ever references the prophecy. If this is the case, then perhaps there's a Flint somewhere in here. No, TR d/n have any future memories of the prophecy - or of anything beyond the time of the diary's creation. But contrary to what Doddie says, TR certainly *can* find out about his defeat by HP. If the prophecy is the issue, and it is specifically mentioned by TR, then I don't know how to make sense of this without making it unnecessarily convoluted; but as I lay it out here, it at least makes sense to me. vmonte again: Hi Albus. You are right that TR knows about his defeat by HP because of Ginny. (I finally figured out what you were trying to say, sorry.) This thread/post was originally about how some people felt that JKR cheated with the prophecy. One poster mentioned that the prophecy should have come up during CoS, with TR's diary. I responded that Ginny and Harry were not aware of the prophecy and therefore could not let Tom know about it. I also mentioned that the memories preserved in the diary were of 16-year-old TR (not of the future Voldemort). TR is never told about the prophecy during CoS, so it was not possible for it to come up in that book--and it never did. I agree with you that TR only knew what Ginny told him--that he was later defeated by HP with no specific details. Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 16:36:08 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:36:08 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125961 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kellymcj2000" wrote: Wow Vivian, I'd accuse you of legilimancy but for that eye contact is necessary.:) I've also been expecting the Lily's eyes clue to mean Harry will go back in time and be msitaken for James until someone notices the eyes are wrong. I never considered though that Lily may have stored memories in a pensieve. That's very interesting. If she did, why? Would it be something she did as a result of knowing the prophecy? The idea of Snape making the connection is really intriguing. Not only would he realize this person was not James, but he would also know it was Lily and James' son because he himself knows Lily's eyes so well. This last bit is assuming all the speculation about Snape crushing on Lily is true. Maybe it's even Snape's memory in the pensieve and Lily has nothing to do with it. vmonte again: You know, there are several things about "Snape's Worst Memory" that stand out in my mind. (I've posted these comments before.) The first one is that I'm not so sure that this memory belongs to Snape. Page 640, OOTP, U.S. edition: "Harry looked around carefully, Snape had to be here somewhere...This was "his" (in italics) memory...." In PoA Harry also "assumes" that he was saved by his father--but it was really Harry. The next one is that Harry really takes a moment to look at his father in the penseive memory. We are given this description: Page 641 "Excitement exploded in the pit of his stomach: It was as though he was looking at himself but with deliberate mistakes. James's eyes were hazel, his nose was slightly longer than Harry's, and there was no scar on his forehead, but they had the same thin face, same mouth, same eyebrows. James's hair stuck up at the back exactly as Harry's did, his hands could have been Harry's and Harry could tell that when James stood up, they would be within an inch of each other's heights." Interesting, isn't it? Now, someone that knows James intimately would know that Harry was not James (Lily, Snape, the marauders, Dumbledore), but your regular run of the mill DE, would not. Notice how the other DEs mentioned in the HP series seem to be older than Snape. Did JKR do this on purpose? Was it because only specific people were meant to recognize Harry when he went back? (If Lucius was in James's potions class he would also be able to recognize the difference between Harry and James, but he was not--is this on purpose?) (I also cannot help to notice that in the PoA movie Lupin tells Harry that he recognized him by his eyes. Does young Lupin bump into time- traveling Harry? Lupin seems to know something about the past that he is not letting on to, IMO.) Here is the next one-- Page 642: "Harry's stomach gave another pleasurable squirm?was Remus Lupin. He looked rather pale and peaky (was the full moon approaching?) and was absorbed in the exam " I mentioned last summer that I thought that the prank against Snape happened that night, after the OWL examinations. Page 643: "Harry looked around and glimpsed Snape a short way away, moving between the tables toward the doors into the entrance hall, still absorbed in his own examination paper. Round-shouldered yet angular, he walked in a twitchy manner that recalled a spider, his oily hair swinging about his face." ..."Did you like question ten, Moony?" asked Sirius as they emerged into the entrance hall. "Loved it," said Lupin briskly. "Give five signs that identify the werewolf. Excellent question." We recently discussed (on this site) the idea that Snape, because of question 10 in the exam, was beginning to put-two-and-two together about Lupin. If the prank happened that night, did Snape already know that Lupin was a werewolf? Was he planning on killing him? And was this memory really Snape's? Or did it belong to Lily? Better yet, is this memory Harry's? Was seventeen-year-old Harry there watching the events first hand? Did he place this memory in the penseive because he was trying to send sixteen-year-old Harry a message? (He would know that he took a peak into the penseive in his 5th year.) The last time I mentioned this theory someone posted a response that perhaps Snape was saved by Harry during the prank, and not James, LOL! Wouldn't it be a riot if Snape realized who Harry was when he spots him as a first year at Hogwarts? He would also realize that he needs to keep Harry alive at least until Harry manages to go back in time to save his life. I will laugh if Snape follows Harry into the past and is then killed by his younger self. Dumbledore has also mentioned that the penseive helps you make connections/deductions. Did the penseive fish out the memory it knew Harry needed to see? Vivian - Who does not think that Snape had a crush on Lily. From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 12 16:38:59 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:38:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character discussion: Lucius and Narcissa Message-ID: <20050312163859.4182.qmail@web25103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125962 Apart from the Path of Alchemical Liberation itself, Harry Potter has been the most amazing thing in my life. As I said in post 107405, in Harry Potter I recognise ever more clearly the timeless Path leading to eternity. Discovery has been followed by discovery, and the remarkable thing is that whenever I find something new, it's always confirmed by something from another direction. For example I told you that on the Path of liberation the etheric body is at some stage freed from the physical body. When I discovered that Dobby personifies the etheric body, logic led me to realise that obviously the Malfoys must personify the physical body. Then suddenly I remembered with a shock Mrs Malfoy's name: Narcissa! This refers to the ancient Greek legend of Narcissus: the handsome young man who saw the image of his own body in the water and fell in love with it. This story is well known to me as symbolising the Fall. That is the confirmation that the Malfoys do indeed symbolise the physical body. This is just one more suggestion to me that Jo DOES want us to understand what Harry Potter is all about. She leaves clues everywhere. How many haven't I discovered yet? The Seventh Cosmic Plane was originally a gigantic alchemical laboratory in which the original human being was to work on the Divine Plan. The essence of this universe, both in its original state and its fallen one, is incessant change. Things in this universe move in circles, in cycles of rising, shining and fading. They condense and crystallise, only to be pulverised and to dissipate again. They move through the states of matter, from solids to liquids to gases, and back again. They form compounds which react with each other, forming yet other compounds, and then break down into elements again. The human being was to work in this laboratory without living in it, without associating with it. The original intention of God was that matter was to be left without reason (i.e. the faculty of reasoning). The moment that spirit and matter associate themselves with each other, an impossible situation arrives, for then matter gains reason, and hence death. What I mean is this. When spirit connects itself with matter, spirit and matter (which is the opposite of spirit) mix. Now the essence of spirit is that it is eternal and unchanging, while matter is continuously changing, as indicated above. When spirit and matter mix, matter drags spirit down with it, causing crystallisation. Matter resists the spirit, which has to maintain itself. The action of the spirit to maintain itself causes matter to condense and crystallise. In this way spirit is imprisoned in matter, which is the root cause of all suffering. That is the Fall. Humanity was to use matter as an alchemical working material, as an aid towards fulfilling the Divine Plan, but was told not to associate itself with it (remember the commandment in Paradise). The legend of the Sorcerer's Apprentice shows what happens if you try to put life into things without fully knowing what you're doing. This young sorcerer cast a spell on brooms to carry water, but could not stop them. He was nearly washed away by the water. The original human being entered the alchemical laboratory of the Seventh Cosmic Plane and experienced it as a garden of wonders, as a paradise. This place was so marvellously attractive and beautiful that from time to time he forgot his true Home and remained working in the Garden of the Gods. He saw himself standing in the centre. He saw his own reflection in the water and fell in love with it. He wanted to cohabit with it. But that meant his will had created a very erroneous image. Nature, matter, embraced her lover and began to merge with him. And this is how the human being was imprisoned in matter. Here we are millions of years later, still imprisoned in matter, with the a spark of the original spirit dormant in the heart, and the fallen human being living in a universe of sorrow, suffering and death. And every now and then matter proclaims its supremacy, as we saw in Asia last Boxing Day. And so I see Lucius and Narcissa Malfoy not only as the physical body, but in fact the symbol of our imprisonment in matter, where we do not belong. This is why they are vassals of Lucifer. Lucifer, as I've said before, is the personification of the sum total of our erroneous actions since the Fall. That's why Lucius' name is so close to Lucifer's. When we go the Path of Alchemical Transfiguration, the etheric body, the astral body and the mental body are transfigured. The physical body is not. It has to be left behind. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. However when the candidate for transfiguration has accomplished the defeat of Lucimort, the physical body can be used to serve the resurrected Divine Human Being in his communication with "muggles". I wonder if we'll see a reformed Lucius serving Harry at the end? (Just for the sake of accuracy I should add that after liberation a new material body is constructed from the matrix of the transfigured etheric body. It is of an extremely high vibration and so is invisible to us "muggles".) The next character I will deal with is Draco. When I've finished writing about him I'll be able to explain what part of the physical body Lucius represents. See if you can guess beforehand. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 17:14:26 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:14:26 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS - Who got what? In-Reply-To: <20050312090212.59731.qmail@web86707.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kate Williams wrote: > > bboyminn: > > Based on my best quess, ... > > So, 6 OWLs most likely, and 8 at the absolute most for Harry, and 6, > possibly 7, for Ron. Not bad, not bad at all. (Assuming one OWL per > subject.) > Fitzov: > Has anyone considered the possibility that Harry fails Defence against the Dark Arts? I have long held the suspicion that ... Umbridge... has just intervened to fail him. Possibly she placed the examiner under an Imperious curse? > > If Harry does fail, then I am willing to guess that there is no justice in the Magical World that would enable Harry's mark to be reinstated. This would entirely mess up his future career as an Auror. > > Any thoughts. > > Fitzov bboyminn: Interesting thought, but in light of Voldemort's /confirmed/ return, I think in the next book, the Ministry, and by extension Umbridge, will have fallen into complete disgrace, and will have very little time or power to affect anything before they are thrown from office. In addition, I think everyone at Hogwarts knows that Umbridge was corrupt, and actively and aggressively gunning for Harry. Consequently, even if Umbridge has somehow managed to fail Harry in DADA, I think Dumbledre and the staff at Hogwarts would fight to get his grade changed to something more realistic. Also, remember that during the exam Harry produced a Patronus Charm which was witnessed by several examiners and other students. So Umbridge would have had to not only control one of the examiners but erase the minds of the others as well. All that said, I wouldn't put it past Umbridge to try some sneak underhanded means of messing with Harry's grades in a last desperate attempt to discredit him. Fortunately, I don't think Dumbledore, the school staff, or Harry would let her get away with it. Perhaps, this last desperate attempt on Umbridge's part to discredit Harry will be the means by which Umbridge is held accountable and force to pay for the evil she perpetrated during her time at Hogwarts. Time will tell. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 18:24:54 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:24:54 -0000 Subject: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125964 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "someoneofsomeplace" wrote: > John: > ... > > What exactly precipitated such a fall-out between the Hogwarts > founders (namely SS and the others)? I get the impression, ..., that > we haven't quite been given the full picture here. The creation of > different houses, ..., suggests that the four had already acknowledged > their differences, found a solution and moved on. > > So why exactly did disagreement spring up, the like of which led to > fighting and dueling and, ultimately, SS leaving (being banished > from?) the school?? > > Enlighten me, oh wise ones! > > John bboyminn: This has been discussed on and off on various occassions, but it is a good question because I think many people have a very distorted idea of what went on way back then, and an even more distorted idea about Salazar Slytherin. First, the selection of students by some characteristic (Smart, Brave, Hardworking/Loyal, Ambitious) is a separate issue from why the Founders had a falling out. In the mythology of wizards, in the ancient past, it has always been common for wizard to take on several apprentices to train personally. The stories usually go something like a strange man visits a very very very poor family and agrees to pay the family a significant sum of money in return for taking a specific one of their sons on as an apprentice. Part of the promise of apprenticeship, is that the son will be well taken care of and given a good education. In ancient times, hardly anyone was educated, so this was no small promise. Naturally, each wizard would look for certain characteristics in the enchanted boys they took on as apprentices. Back in the time of apprentices, I suspect there were far more magical children than were ever found and apprenticed by wizards. Given that Hogwarts was founded during a time of great oppression and persecution of wizards, the apprentice method had probably not only become impractical but dangerous. In addition, I'm sure the Founders saw that under the old method, they simply could not train all the available magical children. So, the idea of a central common school for all magical children was born. The House characteristics were simply a method for the Founders to select the students that would do best under their tutelage; very much as they had always done under the Apprentice system but with a greater number of student. Given that Helga Hufflepuff wasn't too particular about her students, they were assured that all students would get an adequate education. The split between the Founders did not come because of student House characteristics, but because of Slytherins distrust of muggles, and therefore muggle-borns. Remember that wizards at this time in history were greatly persecuted by muggles. If muggles had found out about Hogwarts, it would have been a disaster of unprecidented proportion. It's one thing for each founders to each have their own separate castle somewhere at which to train their own personal apprentices, but for every available magical child as well as the four greatest wizards of the age to all be at one location at the same time is a recipe for a massacre. Now to one very important point, we have NO real evidence that Slytherin was the pureblood-Nazi he is made out to be. All we really know is that he didn't trust muggles, and given the times and circumstances, that distrust was well founded, and note again, the stakes were very high if anything went wrong. So, I can easily see how Salazar wanted to safely restrict Hogwarts students to those of magical ancestry. It's the only way they could be sure that the school would be safe from betrayal and attack. Of course, the other, more open minded more liberal, Founders thought that muggle-borns would not betray the school because in doing so they would betray themselve by revealing their own magical ability to the muggle authorities. Both very reasonable and justifiable positions. People, at later points in history, have taken Slytherins very justified distrust of muggles, and used that as a foundation, expanding it into some overblown pureblood mania. This is standard operating procedure for tyrants who are trying to grab power. You take the power of a famous person's name (validity by association), twist and pervert his doctrine to your own ends (gee, that seems to make sense), and given the masses an enemy to hate (Jews, Americans, Blacks, muggles, take your pick) and to blame all their troubles on. We do know how people have perverted Salazar's beliefs, but we don't really know what his own personal beliefs were other than he, rightfully so, did not trust muggles. I have no problem seeing the conflict over the admittance of muggle-born students escalating to the level it apparently did. There was a lot at stake, and the consequences of a mistake were grave indeed. Ultimatley, Slytherin saw that he was out numbered and could not win, so he was face with warring with people he once counted as friends, or leaving the school. I think, in leaving the school, Salazar did a very noble and selfless thing. Not saying I'm right, but that's how I see it. Steve/bboyminn From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 18:53:03 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:53:03 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125965 "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > I don't think that DD would make the > decisions to act in OOTP the way he > does. I cannot imagine a wizard of > his power and wisdom > thinking that way. Dumbledore is a powerful wizard and a good man and he can dispense fortune cookie style sayings with abandon but even before OoP his actions did not seem particularly wise to me. > I don't believe Fudge would be quite > so incompetent or > stuff his head so far into the sand. Tell that to Neville Chamberlain. Never underestimate the stupidity of politicians. > And I definitely don't think Harry > would ever really have forgetten the mirror. Why not, people forget important things every day, pilots forget to put down their landing gear before landing and surgeons forget to take out their instruments before sowing up patients, and these are things they knew were important; Harry thought the package was of no importance and put it out of his mind, he certainly had plenty of other things to think about. Was it stupid of him not to remember it months later when he was in a panic? Perhaps, but I can picture myself making the same mistake. Eggplant From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Mar 12 19:37:31 2005 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:37:31 -0000 Subject: Changes in Wizarding World Was:A good narrative strategy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125966 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > > I think we will likely see that cooperation on the magical side is > key. By that I mean I don't necessarily mean the much discussed > "unity of houses," although I wouldn't be surprised if we see > something coming of that, but cooperation among wizards, house elves, > werewolves,goblins, etc. I think this was set up by Umbridge and the > anti-werewolf legislation, SPEW, and DD's talk in OOTP about the > Ministry Fountain being a lie. > > What form this will take I don't know. To tell you the truth, I'm a > little bit nervous about it, since it seems awfully late in the day to > introduce such major shifts without them seeming forced in terms of > the plot. Be that as it may, I think we will see something like that > which is critical in terms of defeating Voldemort. > > I don't think we will see this leading to overall major changes in > Wizarding society during the actual narrative, more that we will see > how this cooperation plays out with particular individuals and groups. > However, we may well see references to outgrowths of this in the last > chapter when JKR gives us an overview of what happens to everybody. I > wouldn't be surprised to see passing references to overall changes in > the Wizarding ethos over time coming out of the Voldywar experience. > Marianne: You've hit exactly on my main worry with the direction that I suspect JKR is going in with respect to all these other beings that inhabit the wizard world. I hope you are correct that the result of this is some sort of cooperation between these groups and the wizards trying to defeat Vmort once and for all. I shudder to think that evil (or at least this personification of it) will be defeated through the cooperation of all of these groups and that then the wizard world will collectively hit itself in the head and say "AHA! We've been prejudiced idiots when it comes to our treatment of elves and werewolves and goblins, etc. Let's rectify all our wrongs and herald the dawning of a new day!" Bells ring, people dance in the street, everyone is able to banish their long-held prejudices, and a good time is had by all. I think I'd throw up. However, that seems too neat and too sanitzed for JKR. I hope so, at least. Maybe the twist she'd have at the end is that people will be able to work together to defeat Voldemort, but at the end, nothing much changes immediately for those who are constrained by wizard society. Maybe JKR will simply leave us knowing that enough wizards exist who see the need for change and that someday in the future, beyond the last pages of Book 7, the world will change for the better. Marianne From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 20:01:56 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:01:56 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125967 > GEO: > And would being unplottable cloak yourself from aerial survillance > drones or aircraft or from satellites? a_svirn: Why not? > > They can apparate to the Muggle > > headquarters and after a few carefully applied Iperios make > Muggles > > to aim their amazing ships, planes etc at themselves. > > GEO: Elaborate please? They'd have to compromise the entire military > command structure to do that imo a_svirn: I think they can compromise the "entire military command structure". It's not like muggle generals immune to Imperio or Obliviate. Or can tell a wizard impersonating their second-in- command with the little aid of Polyjuice from a real second-in- command. and if they could why aren't they > ruling the world instead of hiding from it as we see them in the HP > books. a_svirn: Maybe they just don't bother? From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 12 20:27:47 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:27:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who, exactly, is Petunia In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050312202747.23691.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125968 jsmith4973 at aol.com wrote: I think [Petunia]is a witch hiding in deep cover. Somewhere, at some point, JKR plainly said the Dursley's and Petunia were not magical--I think. Someone on this list, I am sure, will know from where--what interview--she made the remark. I also think JKR said Petunia was NOT a squib but cannot be sure. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From witchypooh67 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 20:47:06 2005 From: witchypooh67 at yahoo.com (witchypooh67) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:47:06 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]"other ways of destroying a man . . ." In-Reply-To: <20050312024910.37519.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: > > In Ch.36 of OOTP when DD and LV are battling in the MOM, DD sends various spells toward LV while LV appears to mainly rely upon AK. > > "You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?" called Voldemort, [snip] "Above such brutality, are you?" > > "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom," Dumbledore said calmly, continuing to walk toward Voldemort as though he had not a fear in the world, [snip], "Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit--" > > "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" snarled Voldemort. > > "You are quite wrong," said Dumbledore, [snip] "Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness--" > > This little exchange has always intrigued me--especially the DD's comment about LV knowing of other ways to destroy a man. That whole statement seems to me laced with insinuation and history. Obviously (I think) DD and LV have a shared history. DD has been a foe to LV from early. What, I wonder, did Tom [LV] do to destroy someone close to DD for that is what it seems like to me. I think Tom did something horrible that DD knew about or witnessed or learned about and that is when Tom became LV and DD began a life set-out to defeat LV. I realize this comment could be a general one acknowledging the many horrors LV performed or had a hand in--the Longbottoms come to mind--but it seems more personal than that. DD is almost gruesome when he says "merely taking your life would not satisfy me." > > Has this been discussed? > > Theotokos Kelly: I, too, have always felt there was some private message in DD's words. I first thought of Wormtail and how his life was ruined when he became a LV supporter and sold out his friends. I hope it has a deeper meaning that is revealed in HBP. Kelly, who is counting the days! Only 126 more dats to go! From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 21:34:44 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:34:44 -0000 Subject: World Wizardry before the Great Schism (Was: Wizard Supremacy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125970 I just thought I sum up some of my objection about the idea of "dark and bloody times" as a confrontation between wizards and Muggles (one that ultimately drove wizards into seclusion). 1. The underling assumption as far is I understand is that there has been a ongoing conflict between Muggles and wizards, and wizards were so hopelessly outnumbered that they were beaten time after time, until they had one witch trial too many and went into hiding. But. We know that until after some three centuries ago wizards lived among Muggles. And by "live" I mean that they not just settled down in Muggle neighbourhoods as a kind of foreign and potentially dangerous weirdo, but actually participated in their lives. Socialising. Pursuing Muggle careers. And not just any careers. Somehow I cannot imagine wizards employed in some menial capacity, unless they were Crabbe and Goyle or Hagrid. Just take a look at Hogwarts House Ghosts: a lady, a nobleman, a knight, and a priest. These are three groups that constituted Muggle elite by the time of the universal split-up in 1692. (And now we are about to learn about wizarding royalty perhaps!). I also don't think that these were special cases. There were quite a few knights at Sir Nicolas' Deathday party. Sir Cadogan is also a knight. And come to think of it, Godric Gryffindor valued bravery and chivalry above anything else and sported a sword. That ought to give us some clues about his possible "Muggle profession". Now, knights didn't just strut about in shining armour. They actually fought wars. Muggle wars to be precise. In other words they fought EACH OTHER. English wizards were probably responsible for dispersing Spanish Armada. Spanish wizards might help Cortes to conquer ancient Aztec sorcerers (and Goblins probably gave them a hand since lots of gold were involved), etc. Which means that wizards were DIVIDED just as surely as Muggles were (and still are). Moreover some of wizards were probably placed highly enough to be instigators of Muggle conflicts. And even if they weren't always responsible they were involved in them all right. One couldn't be placed among the ruling elite and stay neutral. These past few days we've been busy discussing what is more devastating magic or technology. Imagine how devastating is magic AND technology combined. By the end of 17th century different groups of humans might have come close to extermination each other. Upon which point wizards must have come to their senses and to an agreement. There probably have been a wizarding version of the "Cuban missile crisis" after which they agreed to unite their forces and created better and safer universe for themselves leaving Muggles to sort out the mess they created together. That is what I believe the real meaning of the "dark and bloody times" is. Not the threat from Muggles, but a dangerous discord among wizards themselves. And concerning witch trials. Lots of fans seem to agree that these were the result of Muggles prejudices against wizardry. We know however that the History of Magic handbook labeled witch burnings as "pointless". This is certainly one way of putting it, considering that probably not all the "witches" condemned to purging fire were actually witches. We know also that there were wizards among clerics. Now why couldn't there have been wizards among the ranks of the Holy Inquisition? It makes a perfect sense if some of the wizards were indeed concerned about the advancement of the Muggle technology. Who was in a better position to stay in the way of progress than clerics? Personally, I have no trouble picturing Torquemada as a Sitherin alumnus. 2. The Schism itself. It is widely assumed that since the Stature of Secrecy coincided with the Salem Witch trails there must be some connection. I think so too. However we don't know what kind of connection is that. I am not buying the theory that it was another case of evil and prejudiced Muggles persecuting poor helpless wizards (or witches as the case may be). The "witches" of Salem trials could have been Muggles accused in witchcraft. On the other hand IF they were witches they could have survived their execution just as Wendolene the Weird survived her forty-something autos-da- f?. Besides if they were indeed witches they could have been guilty as charged. Magical ability can co-exist with extremely low morals as we know from the books only too well. Moreover IF they were witches and IF they were guilty it is possible that their judges were wizards, not muggles. As I mentioned above wizards used to occupy just about any position in Muggle hierarchy. And finally what if the victims of Salem witches weren't Muggles? JKR never mentioned Salem trials, but she did mention Salem witches. From GoF we learned about the renown "Salem Witch Academy". And the victims in Salem were young girls! What if they were not just any girls? What if they were witches from the academy? In fact, though I don't have a compelling proof I am willing to bet that they were indeed witches. This still leaves the question of who did them in, of course. It could have been evil and prejudiced Muggles. On the other hand it could have been evil and prejudiced wizards. Happens all the time as we learned from "Chamber of Secrets". Or it could have been even more complicated than that: evil prejudiced wizards could use ignorant prejudiced Muggles to do their dirty work. Who knows? Well, You-Know-Who. a_svirn From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Mar 12 22:07:26 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:07:26 -0000 Subject: Changes in Wizarding World Was:A good narrative strategy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125971 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: Marianne: > I shudder to think that evil (or > at least this personification of it) will be defeated through the > cooperation of all of these groups and that then the wizard world > will collectively hit itself in the head and say "AHA! We've been > prejudiced idiots when it comes to our treatment of elves and > werewolves and goblins, etc. Let's rectify all our wrongs and herald > the dawning of a new day!" Bells ring, people dance in the street, > everyone is able to banish their long-held prejudices, and a good > time is had by all. > > I think I'd throw up. Geoff: This is the sort of thing which initially happened at the end of the two World Wars. After the First World War, it was "the war to end all wars" and UK troops returned expecting a "home fit for heroes". Your scenario occurred but then we had a depression and a guy calledHitler who spolied fun and it all came round again in 1945 (I can remember as a beginner in school going to Victory parties both in the school and in the street). But after a big event, we get what we in the UK sometimes call "after the Lord Mayor's show". The party ends, the guests depart and, like the clearing up after Bilbo's party in "The Fellowship of the Ring", folk come to put the place to rights and the next day, it's over and back to the old routine...... I fear that after the bells and the dancing, the old prejudices and procrastinations and excuses resurface. Don't throw up - wait and watch the outcomes... Geoff who is in Cassandra mood tonight :-) From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 23:22:00 2005 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:22:00 -0000 Subject: Symbolism in Half-Blood Prince and preceding titles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125972 OK, I have to mention this after all this time reading various Who/What is HBP theories. I read John Granger's books on the HP septology with interest, and particularly recall his words that each of the titles in the series follows the pattern, "Harry Potter and the [metaphor for Christ.]" (If you go, hunh? you can check his existing books, or notes on hogwartsprofessor.com, to see for yourself what you think of his writings.) When the Book 6 title came out, I observed, "Well, that does fit right in." Hearing this theory in the back of my mind while reading various postings makes me feel it not so likely that the HBP would be Snape, DD, Dudley, etc. Of course, the HBP could indeed be a known character or unknown one while the title still SOUNDS symbolic, but I did want to point out this connection-in-the-titles theory. (In short, before the inundated wonder, Granger posits that this relates to JKR's writing in tradition of Changeling and her favorite English authors who wrote in the Christian tradition and traditional symbolism, and more.) Not to say I think true or false any of these theories, but from a literary perspective, I had to mention this background. --A.J. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 23:24:12 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:24:12 -0000 Subject: Wizard supremacy (was:Re: Nel Question #4: Class and Elitism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125973 >>Betsy: >Oh, I was just agreeing with Jim that if the WW was revealed, it wouldn't take long for suspicion and distrust to set in and eventually for some sort of conflict to breakout. It doesn't go towards my argument, but it does set out that a war would probably occur.< >>Jim Ferer: >War, no, but widespread persecution and public distrust.< Betsy: Sorry, I should have been clearer that I agreed with you about suspicion and distrust, and then *I* took that senario further to an all out war. (Not that I'm saying war would be the only outcome - but it was convenient for the old Wizards vs. Muggles set up I was going for. ) But, you've got me thinking. Because while there'd be public distrust, etc., wouldn't various goverments see an advantage to wooing wizards to their side? After all, wizards do have their strengths and I can imagine that the country with the most loyal wizards would have a distinct advantage over those countries who've driven their wizards out. And if you wanted to keep both your Muggle population and your Wizard population happy, would it not be wise to help felicitate the Wizards going into hiding? And could this be what happened in 1692? After all, there's the suggestion in PoA that the Prime Minister knows about the existence of Wizards. And Hogwarts is haunted by both a Friar and some nuns, IIRC. Which makes me wonder if perhaps the Pope, at the time (when my admittedly creaky historical knowledge *thinks* was a time when the Catholic church pretty much ruled Western civilization), also knew of the existence of Wizards. So maybe, in JKR's world, there's an understanding between Wizards in power and Muggles in power. It's pretty much pure speculation based on teeny-tiny amounts of canon, but when has that stopped anyone? :) Betsy From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 23:59:58 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:59:58 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125974 >>Betsy: >So I don't expect [Dumbledore] to fully fill the shoes of the "wise old man" so common in myths and so beautifully illustrated by Tolkien.< >>Phoenixgod: >A human's amount of wisdom can be a whole lot. I expect better from DD. He's spend (probably) around twelve or thirteen *decades* as a teacher or headmaster of people exactly like Harry. And based on some of the earlier conversations with Harry (Mirror of Erisod), I get the feeling that he was probably a really, really good teacher, which speaks of a certain level of insight to the student psyche.< Betsy: I agree with you that Dumbledore is a very good teacher. And I think in most cases, he knows exactly what his students need and makes sure to provide it. But this thing with Harry is different. First of all, as per the prophecy, the battle will come down to Voldemort and Harry. Harry will have to stand alone. Dumbledore will have to watch from the sidelines and just *hope* that he's taught Harry enough. Has Dumbledore ever been in this position before? It's one thing to teach your students some wand skills and send them into the great wide world. It's a completely different thing to teach your student battle skills he will need to face a formidable foe in a battle the student may well not survive, and in which you, the teacher, will not be allowed to assist. Before, Dumbledore the teacher, was *eager* to help his students learn. In this case, I think Dumbledore was very reluctant. Not that he didn't realize Harry would need both skills and information. I just think Dumbledore fell into the "old man's" fault of trying to stop time, to not admitting that the young child you've known is growing up and needing to take on an adult's burden. Add to this the fact that Dumbledore taught Tom Riddle, that Dumbledore may well feel he's *failed* Tom. He may perhaps have a sense of guilt that while he was busy taking down one Dark Lord he didn't have the wit and wisdom to keep another Dark Lord from forming. In a sense Dumbledore has to train Harry to get rid of a problem he (Dumbledore) created. (Not that I think Dumbledore created Voldemort - just that he'd have a sense of guilt about things, a sense that he could have done, should have done, *something*.) Dumbledore has always struck me as very hands-on. *He* took down Gindelwald, *he* formed the Order, *he* wanted to be the Potters' secret-keeper, *he* took on the responsibility of seeing to Harry's safety after the attack at GH. It's hugely difficult for someone used to doing things himself to stand aside and let someone else do a dangerous, difficult, near impossible task. According to the prophecy, this is just what Dumbledore *must* do. I think it's perfectly understandable human nature for Dumbledore to want to put that moment off for as long as he can. >>Phoenixgod: >I cannot fathom that he would ever make the mistake of witholding information. I just can't wrap my mind around it. He should just know better. But then again I don't understand why he doesn't personally tutor Harry, either. That would be first thing I would do if I knew what DD does.< Betsy: Dumbledore *does* know better. He *knew* he should have told Harry when he first asked him about his relationship to Voldemort in PS/SS. But he was too reluctant to put that burden on Harry. Dumbledore loved Harry too much, even that early on. I have a feeling that Dumbledore's love will turn out to be a very good thing for Harry (it *is* a major theme in the series, after all) but a parent's love for their child can often lead to that parent holding their child back. This is the mistake Dumbledore made. However, because he recognized his mistake, I'm fairly certain he's learned from it (something not all parents do) and we will see a much different relationship between Harry and Dumbledore in the next two books. (If Dumbledore lives that long of course!) But I think it made absolute sense for JKR to write Dumbledore in this manner. Otherwise, why would he bother putting Harry through Hogwarts at all? In a totally ruthless plan it would probably have made more sense to give Harry very specific lessons in attack and defense. Plus, it adds to the gravity of Harry's place in the prophecy. It makes sure that we, the readers, aren't dismissive of the fact that Harry may well need to become a killer in order to survive. This is such a normal part of the hero's journey that I think JKR wanted to do something to illustrate the full horror of Harry's possible destiny. Having Dumbledore express this horror was one way she went about doing it. IMO anyway. Betsy From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 00:05:19 2005 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:05:19 -0000 Subject: HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125975 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jxsvt" wrote: > > It would especially fit well if John > Granger's alchemical analysis of the HP series is correct. Granger > identifies the rubedo stage with Rubeus Hagrid. Hey, cool! Granger has been saying for a while that he expects Hagrid to play an important role coming up (red stage) (and I've also wondered if the 'extra info' JKR gave to Robbie Coltrane had any relation). A.J. From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 13 00:51:10 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:51:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] hogwartsprofessor [was: Symbolism in Half-Blood Prince and preceding titles In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050313005110.36290.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125976 A.J. wrote: (If you go, hunh? you can check his existing books, or notes on hogwartsprofessor.com, to see for yourself what you think of his writings.) A.J., I went to hogwartsprofessor.com and found something totally different. The page said Your account has been created. You can access your Web site right away using d6879.u24.yellowestpages.com. Over the next few days, DNS servers all across the Internet will update themselves with your new site name. Once that happens, you will be able to access your site at its permanent address, hogwartsprofessor.com. That seems strange to me and not at all desirable. The icon in the middle of the page said "Sphere" and the only other things on the page were places to log in. Just to let you know. I hope you didn't send me to some strange place that recorded my visit and is going to hi-jack my server or whatever--I have had that happen and it was a crazy endeavor to clean it all out. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Mar 13 03:20:15 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 03:20:15 -0000 Subject: hogwartsprofessor [was: Symbolism in Half-Blood Prince and preceding titles In-Reply-To: <20050313005110.36290.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125977 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: > A.J. wrote: (If you go, hunh? you can check his > existing books, or notes on hogwartsprofessor.com, to see for > yourself what you think of his writings.) > > A.J., I went to hogwartsprofessor.com and found something totally different. The page said > > I hope you didn't send me to some strange place that recorded my > visit and is going to hi-jack my server or whatever--I have had that > happen and it was a crazy endeavor to clean it all out. > > Theotokos > Valky: Hogwartsprofessor is John Grangers site (without looking upthread) I have visited myself and it's terrific and definitely legit. I checked the link just now and you are right it's not the same at all, but be assured no malice was intended by A.J. I am certain. I think that it may be J.G. who has been hijacked. From stonehenge.orders at verizon.net Sun Mar 13 03:23:39 2005 From: stonehenge.orders at verizon.net (kjirstem) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 03:23:39 -0000 Subject: Magic & Electricity (was Wizard supremacy ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125978 Instead of continuing on Wizard Supremacy I thought I'd head off on a tangent, which is really on the nature of Magic. Obviously been discussed thousands of times and so there isn't much new in this post. There are several good essays over at the Lexicon, my own views are close to those of Mark B. Hammer (PrefectMarcus) in "When Magic Meets Muggle Technology". Anyway, thought I'd put this up since the mental model one has for Magic affects the conclusions one reaches in discussions like the recent one on Wizard Supremacy. I made the statement in that discussion that wizards could be considered "electro-magnetically handicapped", this post is meant to be an explanation of my reasoning. Magic makes things happen. One interpretation of how is that Magic is intention/thought/will/imagination made real, another is that it is a form of energy. I'm inclined toward the interpretation that Magic is form of energy. One example of why I don't think Magic involves only thought or intention is the events during Harry's wand selection. He has no idea what to expect and no apparent intent to produce sparks from the wand, yet it happens. If Magic is a form of energy then it is either: a) a form of energy that is unknown in our world b) a different way of using known types of energy Possibly either a or b can be supported by canon but I find it a lot easier to think of Magic as a form of energy that is unknown to us. A few points from the books that I think provide relevant information about Magical energy: 1. There are various references to devices not working around Hogwarts, especially this one from Hermione (whose info is from "Hogwarts, A History")(P 548 GOF, USHB) "All those substitutes for magic Muggles use ? electricity, computers, and radar, and all those things -- they all go haywire around Hogwarts, there's too much magic in the air." 2. FB&WtFT p 5: Chizpurfles will attack electrical objects from within in the absence of magic. 3. Some devices work around Magic and some do not: - Watches ? work (unless immersed too long, apparently) - Cameras ? work using Magic instead of battery power (per website). (Film-based camera, not digital) - Ford Anglia ? works using Magic ( My interpretation is that its electrical systems failed as it came close to Hogwarts. It switched to using magical energy just soon enough to keep Harry and Ron from being pummeled to death.) - Radios ? there is a wizarding equivalent, not clear whether Muggle radios will work in WW. - Lights: WW seems to use fire or wand light - General absence of most electrical devices in the WW. 4. Spells are frequently associated with a flash of light. 5. Although there is light associated with many spells, the spells themselves don't appear to travel at the speed of light. If they did, there would be no way for someone to deflect a spell without acting prior to hearing the spell. 6. Muggles can clearly be affected by magical energy ? they can be killed, they can be levitated (both GOF), they can get in trouble with be-spelled devices. Many of these points from the books seem to me to imply a relationship between Magic and electrical and magnetic forces. We're told through Hermione (point 1 above) that Magic can disrupt electro-magnetic fields; by symmetry I expect the reverse, disruption of Magic by electro-magnetic forces, to be possible as well. Given this, there is probably a continuum of Muggle technology from that which can always be used around Magic to that which can never be used around Magic. The number of magic users and the extent of their use of magic will determine what Muggle technology (at least of the electro-magnetic type) can be used in a given area. Wizarding children aren't yet trained in the use of Magic. They have some innate ability but probably don't generate the same amount of disruption in electro-magnetic fields as adult Magic users. So, as long as Harry wasn't doing accidental magic he could probably use all the normal Muggle devices. Just the same, I don't recall Harry ever actually getting his hands on Dudley's computer or Playstation. The separation of wizards from the Muggle world seems to me to imply that they don't learn much in the way of math and science. Even those from Muggle families more or less leave the Muggle world at age 11 and the math most kids know at that age is not very advanced. Some education in physics may take place in Muggle studies but it is hard to tell if this is so. The arguments I've made above are the reason I have said that Magic users could be considered "electro-magnetically handicapped". By this I meant both: 1) Their use of Magic limits their ability to use electrical or magnetic devices. 2) They do not appear to pursue knowledge of electricity & magnetism. A group in the Potterverse that could integrate understanding of magical and electro-magnetic forces might be able control both. Whichever group that is would almost certainly be the most powerful. kjirstem - if anyone actually read this far From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 15:14:45 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:14:45 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]"other ways of destroying a man . . ." In-Reply-To: <20050312024910.37519.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125979 Theotokos wrote: > "You are quite wrong," said Dumbledore, [snip] "Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness--" > > This little exchange has always intrigued me--especially the DD's >comment about LV knowing of other ways to destroy a man. That whole >statement seems to me laced with insinuation and history. Obviously (I >think) DD and LV have a shared history. DD has been a foe to LV from >early. What, I wonder, did Tom [LV] do to destroy someone close to DD >for that is what it seems like to me. I think Tom did something >horrible that DD knew about or witnessed or learned about and that is >when Tom became LV and DD began a life set-out to defeat LV. I realize >this comment could be a general one acknowledging the many horrors LV >performed or had a hand in--the Longbottoms come to mind--but it seems >more personal than that. DD is almost gruesome when he says "merely >taking your life would not satisfy me." The scene you recounted made me stop and think quite a bit. It raises so many questions and possibilities, starting with: What exactly happened to Grindlewald? We know that Dumbledore defeated him, but did he kill him? "merely taking your life would not satisfy me." My first thought was that Dumbledore wants revenge for some of the grief that Riddle has caused, but the same statement could be made by someone who wants reparation, rather than revenge. Could it be that Dumbledore wants to use Riddle--or, at least, his power, to in some way heal the damage that he's caused? Alternately, just killing Riddle does not kill his cause--the exclusion of Muggles and Muggleborns from wizarding society. Ideally, Riddle's final defeat would come in such a way as to discredit the whole movement--perhaps by revealing in a spectacular way that the followers of this ideology were conned into worshiping a half-blood. A true victory for the forces of light would be to kill not just Voldemort, but the *idea* of Voldemort. Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 16:24:39 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:24:39 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS - Who got what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125980 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stbjohn2" wrote: > I'm just curious why she'd bother with either, or what point it would > serve in the story -- except to really irritate Ron, which is always > fun. JKR has already told us that bravery and friendship are more > important than books and cleverness. She's put her heroes in the > house of the brave, not of the studious. She's shown us members of > the 12 OWLs Club who aren't the best role models (Barty...) So why go > through the trouble of getting HG to 11 or 12 OWLs? Because that's Hermione. Studiousness (Or swottiness, if you prefer) is an important part of her character-the first part (along with a tendency to bossiness) we're exposed to. She may herself understand that there's more to being good than being smart, but being smart and well-informed is fundamental to her self-image. Having to settle for fewer OWLs than Percy would probably hurt her. Amiable Dorsai From kgpopp at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 16:34:01 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:34:01 -0000 Subject: The Prohecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125981 John: > Those odd trances, such as Trelawney occasionally drifts into, seem > to be the only way of distinguishing a *real* prophecy from a false > one. Voldy, having heard of the symptoms of ST's condition from his > informant, must have deduced that the prophecy was genuine. > > John, on the whole dissatisfied with the very notion of > a "prophecy." Now Kristen: I agree the trance are a sign that this is a "real" prophecy. However I don't think it is a mater of Voldemort believing in Trelawney. I think Voldemort is just playing it safe. He heard someone could be his downfall, so even though he may not think it is true, he figures he will kill em just to be sure. I mean it's not like he has a problem killing others so what is one more person who got in the way. I'd compare it to one of us hearing a hearing a weather report that it might rain. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but either most of us would take our umbrella with us. If it doesn't rain it is not like we are too put out. From adesahafford at wmconnect.com Sat Mar 12 16:41:27 2005 From: adesahafford at wmconnect.com (adesahafford at wmconnect.com) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:41:27 EST Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) Message-ID: <1de.3700ace1.2f6475b7@wmconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125982 In a message dated 3/12/05 9:25:42 AM Central Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Just imagine if he knew of the prophecy (maybe he was the one thrown > out of Hog's Head?) I'd always assumed that was Mundungus. Didn't Lupin or Moody say Dung hadn't been allowed at the Hog's Head for nearly 20 years, and that's why he had to be disguised to overhear the DA formation meeting. Adesa "When we started homeschooling, I felt as though I had tucked a child under each arm and jumped off a cliff. Imagine my surprise to discover we have wings." ~Maura Seger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 12 18:58:05 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:58:05 -0000 Subject: Who is the HBP & link between books 2 & 6? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125983 This is my first post here and I am posting in response to the poll on the subject as neither of my two choices are listed. I have 2 possible candidates for the HBP, assuming he is an existing character. One is Justin Finch-Fletchley. This is on the basis that he said his name had been down for Eton although I do suspect this is probably a red herring. The other is Colin Creevey. This is because JKR did say we'd be *extremely* surprised by his identity, and there doesn't seem to be another reason for him to be there! Also, I don't think this has been discussed before, not recently at least: JKR has said that there is a very strong link between book 2 and book 6 and I was reading through some of her interviews and someone asked her if we would see Aragog again and she said "Yes". I can only assume that this is the link, so what could his involvement be? Karen From bree4378 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 01:48:43 2005 From: bree4378 at yahoo.com (Sabrina) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 01:48:43 -0000 Subject: HBP a Potion? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125984 Hey all, please read my earlier post on my WILD HBP theory. I have also read the various posts commenting on the HBP not being a person at all, and I disagree. I don't really have any proof or citations to show why I disagree. I think it's more the fact that I would be disappointed if the HBP was not even a real person. Even if it is a new character not mentioned in the previous books, I wouldn't mind....but PLEASE don't let it be the name of a potion! "Sabrina" From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 04:00:46 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 04:00:46 -0000 Subject: JKR website update ( Nearly Headless Nick) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125985 If you have not seen it yet, Leaky Caudron mentions that JKR updated her website (Extra stuff section, characters). There is a poem which Nearly headless Nick was supposed to recite in CoS to tell about his beheading. JKR's editor did not like the song that much at that time. :) Anyways, my question would be whether the reason that JKR posted it now is to give us more interesting details about past books or to give us more of HBP-related hints? Do you think we'll see more of Nick in HBP? What do you think his role could be IF it were to increase? Since I am fond of speculation that Harry will somehow go behind the Veil to try and find Sirius there, I thought maybe Nick will be Harry's guide, but then I realised that he as ghost cannot really go in that world, or can he? What do you guys think? Alla. From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 08:17:20 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:17:20 -0000 Subject: FF: Poll - Sirius would you bring him back? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125986 I very humbly submit this little exercise. If it never shows up I won't be surprised, I'm no writer. I just really don't want Harry to totally die. He could maybe go "into the west" like Frodo, but I believe in happy endings, after all is done and said. PS: If this is illegal please delete it promptly, and I promise not to do is again. Harry Potter's Final Battle - bbkkyy's dumb version. His head hurt so bad he could hardly focus to see, and he was shaking and felt like he was going to retch again. He didn't see how he could go on any more. If the others weren't here maybe he would just have given up. Death would be such a relief, he was worn out, so sick of it all. Harry glanced to his right. He could see Ron on the ground cradling Hermione in his arms. They were injured, but they were still alive. Ron was whispering something to Hermione and was protecting her with his body between her and Voldemort. Voldemort was staring at Harry. Harry knew this was it. What should he do? He knew Ginny was just to his left and a little in back of him. Voldemort glared at him and grinned a wicked grin. He started to raise his wand. Then Harry saw Voldemort's eye's glance at where Ginny was standing. He was going to kill Ginny! Harry heard the killing curse's starting phrase. Harry screamed something and aimed his wand at Voldemort as he leaped to the side to shield Ginny from the blast. He was moving in slow motion, he could see the green light of Voldemort's curse coming right at him as he started to fall. It was just like his old dream of the green light and the high pitched laughter. All he could think of was Ginny. He had to protect Ginny. The green light hit him and everything went black. He was floating in a warm soft blackness. Ahead of him, far off he could see a white light appearing. As he floated closer it became brighter. It was so peaceful and warm, nothing hurt. He had never felt so good. The light was coming nearer now and he could see people waiting there for him. It was his mom and dad, and all his family he had seen seven years ago in the Mirror of Erised. He felt so good he wanted to laugh aloud. There was Sirius and Lupin too. They were all looking at him and smiling, waiting for him. Then far, far off he could hear a voice calling his name. It sounded like Ginny. She was sobbing and calling his name. He knew now he could decide. He stopped moving and looked back at his family and Sirius and Lupin. They were still smiling and watching him. They knew what he would do. It was okay. They would wait for him. How could he leave Ginny and Ron and Hermione? They would be so upset if he died. He wanted to go back. He knew it would be painful, knew this place was better, but he would be here again someday. He would go back. It was getting darker. He wasn't floating any more. He could feel the hard ground under him and his head was hurting as usual. Also his leg hurt and he couldn't move it, it must be broken. But he had felt pain before. He also felt Ginny holding his hand and heard her sobbing and calling his name over and over. He took a long slow quivering breath. Where was Voldemort? He opened his eyes and saw Ginny looking at him and crying, now with joy. Big silver tears were running down her beautiful freckled cheeks. "Where is Voldemort, Ginny" he asked. "Oh Harry, you're alive! You've done it Harry! Voldemort is dead! You killed him! Your patronus charm hit him and there was this bright white light. When it faded He was lying there dead. I guess all that good feeling from your patronus was too much for him. It was tremendous." Harry raised his self up to look at the place Voldemort had been standing. There he was, laying crumpled and ugly, not moving on the ground. It was over. He sat up and gave Ginny a great big hug. He had a feeling they would be hugging quite often for many, many years to come. He looked over at Ron and Hermione. They were grinning at him through their injuries. Ron gave Harry a thumbs up sign with his remaining good hand. From collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 23:02:50 2005 From: collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com (jina haymaker) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:02:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as HBP In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050312230251.85668.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125987 sharon wrote: Some other posters have hinted that they think there is a possibility that Snape is the HBP. Well, here's a real quick theory to support that idea. Snape was a prince or some other monarch about to or just coming to power. Voldy formed an alliance with Snape for reasons of expanding power. Snape became an honorary DE because of this alliance. Voldy staged a coup sending Snape into exile, where he was given shelter at Hogwarts working as a professor. Snape then disavowed Voldy, which led to DD to trust him. Snape also became bitter after seeing HP, the infant son of his schooltime nemesis, defeat Voldy who robbed him of his power. This explains his disdain for Harry. So there you have it, Snape's past in a half-baked nutshell. I said it was real quick. Sharon Who stills see HBP as an abbreviation for High Blood Pressure I don't see the High Blood Pressure, but I do think that Snape could be the HBP. I mean he is playing the double agent so half of him is with the good and the evil. But maybe he wasn't a pureblood to start off with so this again would make him half-blood. (Tom Riddle got into Slytherin and he had muggle parents) Jina Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 00:04:01 2005 From: collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com (jina haymaker) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:04:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Prohecy In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050313000401.67145.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125988 Brodeur wrote: I was just reading over OOTP and I was wondering why Lord Voldemort had so much "faith" in Trelawney. Everybody seems to think that she is loony and crazy. Why is it that Voldy would care so much about a Prophecy made by somebody who he knows nothing about? Besides the fact that a Prophecy is not always correct or true. I think that Voldy trusted this Prohecy because Trewlawney went into her trance like state and then predicted what was to happen. There seems to be very few true predictions but you can tell the different between them. Wasn't Trewlawney's grandmother a very well repected Seer? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 13 04:28:43 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 04:28:43 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Serpents, Talking to Animals (was Re:The Falling-Out ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125989 Thanks, Steve! This was a very well-written, plausible explanation. I have another question for you, or anyone who's got an idea: why do you suppose Slytherin chose the snake, a long-standing representation of evil, as his mascot, apart from an uncanny similarity to his name? We know he was a Parselmouth, and while I'm disinclined to think every Parselmouth is inherently evil, it is interesting to me that this should be a symbol he became so connected with. It makes sense for a Parselmouth to choose a basilisk as a defensive tactic, as it's something he or she can control, but why the close ties with serpents in general? This raises another question about magical (and non-magical) animals. Why is it that certain animals (eg. owls, phoenixes, and certain cats) are able to understand human language, and able to express certain communication to their owners, while others are not? IMO, the biggest drawback to having a rat or a toad as a pet (familiar) seems to be a failure to communicate. (To be fair, the only rat I know of turned out to be a murdering animagus, and Neville's got the only toad I know of and I'm not sure he could keep a slug form running away, no disrespect intended.) Are there any witches or wizards who have the gift of speaking to different kinds of animals besides snakes? And where, and why, does Parseltongue originate from. There must be some practical, natural reason why some wizards, albeit a few, need to communicate with this species. Hmmm.... imamommy--- > bboyminn: > > This has been discussed on and off on various occassions, but it is a > good question because I think many people have a very distorted idea > of what went on way back then, and an even more distorted idea about > Salazar Slytherin. > > First, the selection of students by some characteristic (Smart, Brave, > Hardworking/Loyal, Ambitious) is a separate issue from why the > Founders had a falling out. > > In the mythology of wizards, in the ancient past, it has always been > common for wizard to take on several apprentices to train personally. > The stories usually go something like a strange man visits a very very > very poor family and agrees to pay the family a significant sum of > money in return for taking a specific one of their sons on as an > apprentice. Part of the promise of apprenticeship, is that the son > will be well taken care of and given a good education. In ancient > times, hardly anyone was educated, so this was no small promise. > > Naturally, each wizard would look for certain characteristics in the > enchanted boys they took on as apprentices. Back in the time of > apprentices, I suspect there were far more magical children than were > ever found and apprenticed by wizards. > > Given that Hogwarts was founded during a time of great oppression and > persecution of wizards, the apprentice method had probably not only > become impractical but dangerous. In addition, I'm sure the Founders > saw that under the old method, they simply could not train all the > available magical children. So, the idea of a central common school > for all magical children was born. > > The House characteristics were simply a method for the Founders to > select the students that would do best under their tutelage; very much > as they had always done under the Apprentice system but with a greater > number of student. Given that Helga Hufflepuff wasn't too particular > about her students, they were assured that all students would get an > adequate education. > > The split between the Founders did not come because of student House > characteristics, but because of Slytherins distrust of muggles, and > therefore muggle-borns. Remember that wizards at this time in history > were greatly persecuted by muggles. If muggles had found out about > Hogwarts, it would have been a disaster of unprecidented proportion. > > It's one thing for each founders to each have their own separate > castle somewhere at which to train their own personal apprentices, but > for every available magical child as well as the four greatest wizards > of the age to all be at one location at the same time is a recipe for > a massacre. > > Now to one very important point, we have NO real evidence that > Slytherin was the pureblood-Nazi he is made out to be. All we really > know is that he didn't trust muggles, and given the times and > circumstances, that distrust was well founded, and note again, the > stakes were very high if anything went wrong. > > So, I can easily see how Salazar wanted to safely restrict Hogwarts > students to those of magical ancestry. It's the only way they could be > sure that the school would be safe from betrayal and attack. Of > course, the other, more open minded more liberal, Founders thought > that muggle-borns would not betray the school because in doing so they > would betray themselve by revealing their own magical ability to the > muggle authorities. Both very reasonable and justifiable positions. > > People, at later points in history, have taken Slytherins very > justified distrust of muggles, and used that as a foundation, > expanding it into some overblown pureblood mania. This is standard > operating procedure for tyrants who are trying to grab power. You take > the power of a famous person's name (validity by association), twist > and pervert his doctrine to your own ends (gee, that seems to make > sense), and given the masses an enemy to hate (Jews, Americans, > Blacks, muggles, take your pick) and to blame all their troubles on. > > We do know how people have perverted Salazar's beliefs, but we don't > really know what his own personal beliefs were other than he, > rightfully so, did not trust muggles. > > I have no problem seeing the conflict over the admittance of > muggle-born students escalating to the level it apparently did. There > was a lot at stake, and the consequences of a mistake were grave > indeed. Ultimatley, Slytherin saw that he was out numbered and could > not win, so he was face with warring with people he once counted as > friends, or leaving the school. I think, in leaving the school, > Salazar did a very noble and selfless thing. > > Not saying I'm right, but that's how I see it. > > Steve/bboyminn From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Mar 13 04:41:51 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:41:51 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin Serpents, Talking to Animals (was Re:The Fallin... Message-ID: <1fa.4bdbc32.2f651e8f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125990 In a message dated 3/12/2005 11:30:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, imamommy at sbcglobal.net writes: I have another question for you, or anyone who's got an idea: why do you suppose Slytherin chose the snake, a long-standing representation of evil, as his mascot, apart from an uncanny similarity to his name? ========== Sherrie here: Actually, the snake as a personification of evil is relatively recent - generally dating from the Judeo-Christian cosmology (although the Midgard Serpent isn't exactly GOOD...). Prior to that, the snake was considered a representation of wisdom. Witness the Minoan snake Goddess, the snakes that wrap around the wand of Aesculapius, Quetzelcoatl... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 13 04:47:30 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:47:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: hogwartsprofessor [was: Symbolism in Half-Blood Prince and preceding titles In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050313044730.77012.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125991 "M.Clifford" sent a link but it was bad. Valky: Hogwartsprofessor is John Grangers site (without looking upthread) I have visited myself and it's terrific and definitely legit. I checked the link just now and you are right it's not the same at all, but be assured no malice was intended by A.J. I am certain. I think that it may be J.G. who has been hijacked. me: Ah, well that is a shame. It sounded so interesting. Maybe the problem in temporary. theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 05:57:23 2005 From: queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 05:57:23 -0000 Subject: History and Myth Behind HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125992 Just some stuff I got from in books and more about things which could relate to the HP books. Spinners End I was bored last night so I looked up the online British Street Directory and searched for this interesting chapter name. The results had me wondering, because there are two streets in Britain that go by Spinners End. Spinners End, Weston-Super-Mare, Avon, BS22 And Spinners End Drive, Cradley Heath, West Midlands, B_64 The Spinners End in Avon is in an old historical town of Bath. King Edgar who became a king at the age of 16, was however officially made King 14 years later at Bath. So Spinners End, could indeed revolve around a street or a place in HBP. Or: In Greek Myth there was a maiden named Arachne. This woman was so good at spinning and weaving, it was believed that there was no other that could match her ability. Arachne was imputant and quite arrogant about this fact and said no one had better skill than her, even the goddess Athena, who was not only goddess of Wat but Protector of spinners and weavers. Athena challenged the woman and later won. As punishment, Athena turned Arachne into a spider. So Spinners End, could also be metaphorical for the end of arrogance, impudence deceit and lies in HBP. Platform 9 and 3/4 There was a warrior queen named Boadicea living in about 61 AD. I won't go into history about this woman and her daughters and their battle with the Romans, but it was said that this woman was a tall fierce queen, who was scary in Appearance and had a great mass of tawny hair. As legend dictates, Queen Boadicea was thought to be burried underneath Platform ten at Kings Cross Station. The Stag In a unicorn legend I came across, it is believed that the stag a friend of the unicorn would devour the serpent, who represented evil. Harry= stag Voldemort=serpent. The HBP Is it possible the HBP is Dumbledore? Dumbledore means bumblebee, right? The bee represents royalty in Egyptian Mythology and Nepoleon, used the bee as a symbol of his empire as well. The Hand of Glory In Englang it was thought that the hand of a hanged criminal held curative powers. People would pay the executioner to place the hand on their bodies. The Dog A symbol of loyalty, dogs were thought to be faithful even in death, which was also represented by the statues of dogs on gravesites. Dogs were said to have been gaurdian, in life and also in death. This is why I reckon Harry will be able to contact Sirius in some form or another. Even thr mirror -- It is a reflective surface just like water, and it was believed that water acted like a two-way mirror, alowing people to communicate with underground spirits. So yeah, just thought I'd mention this stuff. :D *** DOODLINGTEA: Harry Potter Art by TeaWithVoldy http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=doodlingtea From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 08:14:32 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:14:32 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]"other ways of destroying a man . . ." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125993 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > > Theotokos wrote: > > > "You are quite wrong," said Dumbledore, [snip] "Indeed, > > your failure to understand that there are things much worse than > > death has always been your greatest weakness--" > > > > ...edited... > Amiable Dorsai: > > The scene you recounted made me stop and think quite a bit. It > raises so many questions and possibilities, ... > > "merely taking your life would not satisfy me." My first thought was > that Dumbledore wants revenge for some of the grief that Riddle > has caused, ... Could it be that Dumbledore wants to use Riddle--or, > at least, his power, to in some way heal the damage that he's > caused? > > ...edited.. > > A true victory for the forces of light would be to kill not just > Voldemort, but the *idea* of Voldemort. > > Amiable Dorsai bboyminn: Let me start at the end, regarding not killing Voldemort but killing the idea of Voldemort; I like this and it is so very true. Killing Voldemort, or someone like him, has a very high potential to make that person a martyr and a 'larger-then-life' legend. In doing that, you actually give MORE power to the person and the cause. So, in summary, on this point, I very much agree that the wizard world must defeat Voldemort's cause. Now to the duel between Dumbledore and Voldemort. I don't necessarily disagree with what you, and what others in the past, are saying, but I want to add another point to the mix. Dumbledore can't actually kill Voldemort. When Voldemort got his body back, he referred to it as his old body and his old strength, which I take to mean that he is right back where he was the day before he was vaporized. He has a degree of protection against death. For some insight on Voldemort and the nature of his protections see... Date: Wed Feb 9, 2005 2:30 pm Subject: Voldie Immortal?? -Speculation (was- Dumbledore the General) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/124268 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/124277 Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:48 am Subject: Re: LV's experiments - The Deadly Protection http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/122358 The gist is that if Dumbledore tries to AK Voldemort, it's likely he will either fail, or Voldemort will again be reduced to vapor. However, in being reduced to vapor again, Voldemort has a certain advantage. For one thing he has Death Eaters readily available to help restore him using a tried and proven restoration process. In addition, because of the Prophecy, Dumbledore assumes that Harry is the only person who can truly rid the world of Voldemort. So, to some extent, Dumbledore is bluffing. He is speaking in a strong confident voice that hides the fact that he is limited in what he can do. While I believe all that to be true, I don't think that prevents Dumbledore from also having a somewhat spiritual message in his words. In that, I mean. I don't think Dumbledore is lying to Voldemort, he believes everything he says. There are things worse than death, and there are fundamental truths the Voldemort just doesn't get. I also believe that Dumbledore is attempting to mentally disarm or undermine Voldemort by calling him Tom. In a sense, implying to Voldemort that he can try to make himself out as a god, but Dumbledore knows him for the insecure boy that he is. These are all things suggested before, and again, I'm not trying to discount them. I'm just trying to add to that, the concept that even if he wanted to, Dumbledore knows he can't kill Voldemort, so he bluffs and plays head games with him. As to what some of these 'other ways of destroying a man' might be. A few things occur to me. First, and most obvious, is the Dementor's Kiss. That certainly destroys a man without killing him. Another might be the loss of magical powers. Can you imagine, all magical power force from Voldemort's body by Harry /special power/? Poor Voldemort, force to live out his days as the very thing he despises; a muggle. And speaking of fundemental truths that Voldemort doesn't understand, I think Voldemort's greatest curse could end up being the very thing he is most desperately seeking; immortality. What would happen if Voldemort was able to create a body and mind that could never die, but the experiment went horribly wrong, and while he couldn't die, he would indeed age normally. Many decades down the road, and into centuries beyond that, a frail helpless skeletal Voldemort lives on long forgotten by everyone. Dooomed to that very eternal life he so desperately sought. How's that for justice? Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 13 08:22:59 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:22:59 -0000 Subject: Hermione/House/pet rat/cover illo/love potion/SalemWitchesInstitute/Sir Nick Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125994 Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125627 : << It couldn't have been because she was a Muggleborn (how could he have known that?). >> Presumably the professors were given in advance a list of all entering students, so that Severus would have plenty of time to stew about Harry's arrival. For all we know, that list has detailed information on the children's backgrounds. Magic being what it is, it *could* be more information than the child him/herself knows, like it might explain about Dean not knowing that his biological father, insert name here, was a wizard. Steve bboyminn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125671 : << Keep in mind that while there are still living members of the Black family, the 'House of Black' died with Sirius; the House of Tonks, LeStrange, and Malfoy continue on. >> The high amount of gender equality in the wizarding world sits uncomfortably with the patriarchal traditions inherited from the pre-Statute of Secrecy Muggle world. The wizarding folk do make a big deal about the family by surname, and they do have wives adopting their husbands' surname --- but maybe not in all cases. Maybe a witch of the family can pass on the family surname and The House Of whoever if there is no male heir left. Like, if Sirius and Regulus had hurried up and died before Bellatrix married, Rodolphus could have taken her surname, Black, instead of she his, and they could have had a child who would be heir of the House of Black. Even tho' Bellatrix, Narcissa, and Andromeda all took their husbands' surnames, maybe a child of one of them could become the Heir of Black by adopting the surname Black to go along with the blood. I have a bad fanfic in which the House of Lovegood sprang from the marriage of the last Loving and the last Goodknight (inspired by the wonderful name of an Old West cattle trail). a_svirn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125687 : << What has me in puzzle though is why a rat-pet was allowed in Hogwarts at all. It was clearly said in the letter of admission: "a cat OR a toad OR an owl". Why there were special allowances made for Weasleys? >> It seems to me that a rat is the kind of small pet (didn't Ron sometimes keep Scabbers in his pocket?) that a kid can keep secretly even in a school that doesn't allow pets at all. In addition, Hogwarts under Dumbledore doesn't seem very picky about rules; a student can probably have any pet (e.g. a hippogriff) if Filch doesn't catch him/her with it and the other students living in the same dorm don't complain. I personally think Lavender is Muggle-born, partly because she looked ignorant when the Grim was mentioned, but partly because she left her bunny at home; if she were from a wizarding family, she would have known that 'a cat OR a toad OR an owl' didn't mean 'no bunnies'. OTOH she has a perfectly wizarding name. Eggplant wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125785 : << Is that really Dumbledore on the cover of HBP? It could be Dumbledore, but it could also be the new character described in the only known quote from the new book: "He looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp." >> The bloke on the cover has white hair, not tawny with grey streaks. Brodeur wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125936 : << Whilst I was reading the POA it stated that "Mrs. Weasley was telling Ginny and Hermione, about a love potion that she had once made". Now I was under the assumption that those are illegal. Back in the past Hermione was once confronted about making a love potion but then somebody stated, that they are of course illegal at Hogwarts. >> For something to be against the rules at Hogwarts doesn't mean it's illegal outside of Hogwarts. Like however-many hundred perfectly legal products which Filch has banned from Hogwarts, e.g. Dungbombs. a_swirn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125970 : << From GoF we learned about the renown "Salem Witch Academy". >> In GoF, it was the Salem Witches' Institute, not Academy. I am convinced it is a joke on a UK thing called the Women's Institute; it's kind of a club for housewives in rural areas, with website http://www.womens-institute.co.uk/ Alla wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/125985 : << If you have not seen it yet, Leaky Caudron mentions that JKR updated her website (Extra stuff section, characters). There is a poem which Nearly headless Nick was supposed to recite in CoS to tell about his beheading. JKR's editor did not like the song that much at that time. :) >> But that poem has been on her website for a long time! It is not a very good poem, but answers some of our curiosity about Sir Nick, why he was sentenced to be beheaded, altho' not why he's a Gryffindor (WHAT courage?). In OoP, Nick seemed not very happy about his decision to stay a ghost instead of proceeding into the unknown, and I kind of hope he gets a chance to resume that journey, altho' nowhere near as much as I hope someone can put Myrtle out of her (and our) misery! http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=11 From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Sun Mar 13 10:43:29 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Kate Williams) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:43:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] History and Myth Behind HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050313104329.52937.qmail@web86705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125995 Maria wrote: Spinners End "there are two streets in Britain that go by Spinners End. Spinners End, Weston-Super-Mare, Avon, BS22 And Spinners End Drive, Cradley Heath, West Midlands, B_64" Fitzov de Sullens: The Chapter Title of "Spinner's End" also has me intrigued. It actually sounds more like a house name than a street name to me. I wonder, therefore, if this is the name of Sirius' own house: the one that he bought at the age of 17 with his Uncle Alphard's gold (OOtP, p104 (UK Ed.))? I've read some speculation that Sirius leaves Harry Grimmauld Place, but it seems more likely that he would leave him his own house that has more pleasant connections for him, whilst leaving Grimmauld Place to the Order. JKR has said that Harry leaves Privet Drive early in Book 6 for a 'pleasant reason'. Maybe this is to visit Spinner's End and discover more about his parents and Sirius there. BTW, the Weston-Super-Mare connection is interesting. WSM is a seaside town near to Bristol and therefore, probably not far from Godric's Hollow. (Hagrid flies over Bristol on his way from Godric's Hollow to Surrey.) Any thoughts? Fitzov [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Sun Mar 13 11:02:32 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Kate Williams) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:02:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as HBP In-Reply-To: <20050312230251.85668.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050313110232.95388.qmail@web86710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125996 sharon wrote: "Snape was a prince or some other monarch about to or just coming to power." Fitzov: The biggest issue I have with the identity of the Half Blood Prince, relates to the use of the title "Prince". JKR has give no hints whatsoever that there is any equivalent of Wizard Monarchy, and her books actually strike me as out-and-out republican. There are no Kings and Queens, and therefore no Princes and Princesses. Unless Neville's toad is about to turn into a Prince (viz numerous European fairy tales), I can see no possible connections to monarchy anywhere in the books. The word 'Prince' must be being used as a metaphor for something else therefore. I love the idea that the HBP is not a person but a potion, however the term "Half-Blood" (which clearly does relate to a person) seems to contradict this theory. Many people have speculated that the word 'Prince' is synonymous with 'Heir', but why use the word 'Prince' then? Has anyone else puzzled over the use of the word 'Prince' as opposed to the much more discussed term 'Half-Blood'? Fitzov [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Sun Mar 13 11:24:03 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Kate Williams) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:24:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All the possible OWLS - Who got what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050313112403.96735.qmail@web86710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125997 bboyminn wrote: "Interesting thought, but in light of Voldemort's /confirmed/ return, I think in the next book, the Ministry, and by extension Umbridge, will have fallen into complete disgrace, and will have very little time or power to affect anything before they are thrown from office. In addition, ... even if Umbridge has somehow managed to fail Harry in DADA, I think Dumbledre and the staff at Hogwarts would fight to get his grade changed to something more realistic." Also, remember that during the exam Harry produced a Patronus Charm which was witnessed by several examiners and other students. So Umbridge would have had to not only control one of the examiners but erase the minds of the others as well." Now Fitzov: Good point about the witnesses, but I still don't think that Wizard Justice seems very reliable. If Sirius could be sent to prison without a trial, then I suspect there might also be no forum for grades' appeal. And even if Umbridge has now been completely discredited, there is no reason why she should not have sowed the seeds of Harry's future troubles well before her fall from grace. Why else would Umbridge have been smiling having just apparently witnessed Harry achieving an 'Outstanding' in his DADA OWL? We may have seen the last of Umbridge herself, but I don't think it is the last we will hear of her legacy. Fitzov [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 14:22:41 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:22:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups]"other ways of destroying a man . . ." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050313142241.42281.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 125998 --- Steve wrote: > The gist is that if Dumbledore tries to AK Voldemort, it's likely > he will either fail, or Voldemort will again be reduced to vapor. True. And also likely (from Dumbledore's POV) that he will likely hurt Harry. I think that Dumbledore is operating under the assumption (since COS at least) that the link between Harry and Voldemort could easily lead to Harry being eventually taken over completely by Voldemort in some kind of permanent possession. He was concerned that this takeover was somehow happening in COS (when he invades Harry's mind after Mrs. Norris is found petrified to ascertain that Harry is innocent) and we saw it again in OOTP when he checks his silver instruments ("but in essence divided") after the news about Harry's Arthur dream/vision. Note he checks the instruments immediately before doing anything to help Arthur: he has to be sure that this is Harry he's talking to, not Voldemort in a Harry-suit. The key issue which we sometimes pass over is that as Snape put it to Harry in the first occlumency lesson: "the normal rules don't seem to apply to you, Potter." Dumbledore doesn't KNOW what is going on inside Harry or Voldemort as a result of Voldemort's pre-GH fiasco immortality experiments. I think that we'll find out that both Dumbledore and Snape have been working for years to recreate Voldemort's experiments (and I believe that a younger Snape worked on some of the original ones when he was a DE) to find out what precisely happened at GH that fateful night and to find out just what the connection between Harry and Voldemort really is. Yes, it would be nice if Voldemort-ism could be defeated as easily as a Dark Lord could be but nastiness, evil, bigotry etc. is part of human nature. There can be no final victory, only recurrent small triumphs that must be won over and over again without an end in sight. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 13 14:35:04 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:35:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 125999 > Betsy wrote: > I agree with you that Dumbledore is a very good teacher. And I > think in most cases, he knows exactly what his students need and > makes sure to provide it. But this thing with Harry is different. > > First of all, as per the prophecy, the battle will come down to > Voldemort and Harry. Harry will have to stand alone. Dumbledore > will have to watch from the sidelines and just *hope* that he's > taught Harry enough. Hannah: I agree with virtually all of your post and your very well worded explanation of DD's motives and psychology in his treatment of Harry. The only thing I would disagree with is the assertion that DD is unable to help Harry in the final battle. Yes, the prophecy says that Harry is the only one who can defeat LV, and that 'one must die at the hand of the other.' But it doesn't say that Harry has to do the whole thing alone, without help. I think DD could participate actively in the final battle, as long as Harry does the actual whatever-it-is to get rid of LV. Now, I don't think he actually *will* because that's not how JKR writes these things. At the best, Harry will have his friends there with him (I rather suspect DD will die in HBP anyway). But DD himself can't know that he won't be there to help out, not from the prophecy alone. Hannah From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 14:36:24 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:36:24 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Serpents, Talking to Animals (was Re:The Falling-Out ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126000 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > > Thanks, Steve! This was a very well-written, plausible explanation. > > I have another question for you, or anyone who's got an idea: why do > you suppose Slytherin chose the snake, a long-standing representation > of evil, as his mascot, apart from an uncanny similarity to his > name? We know he was a Parselmouth, and while I'm disinclined to > think every Parselmouth is inherently evil, it is interesting to me > that this should be a symbol he became so connected with. It makes > sense for a Parselmouth to choose a basilisk as a defensive tactic, > as it's something he or she can control, but why the close ties with > serpents in general? > > This raises another question about magical (and non-magical) > animals. Why is it that certain animals (eg. owls, phoenixes, and > certain cats) are able to understand human language, and able to > express certain communication to their owners, while others are not? > IMO, the biggest drawback to having a rat or a toad as a pet > (familiar) seems to be a failure to communicate. (To be fair, the > only rat I know of turned out to be a murdering animagus, and > Neville's got the only toad I know of and I'm not sure he could keep > a slug form running away, no disrespect intended.) Are there any > witches or wizards who have the gift of speaking to different kinds > of animals besides snakes? And where, and why, does Parseltongue > originate from. There must be some practical, natural reason why > some wizards, albeit a few, need to communicate with this species. Finwitch: Now, for one thing snake is not even nearly always associated with evil. For one, it's the symbol of medication -- of *healing*, and nothing bad about that, is there? And it's supposed to represent intellect, fake death etc. as well. As for these *few* wizards able to communicate with snakes - well, it's just a mutation. And Harry saving Justin from that snake shows a benefit from that. Also, snake venom, eggs, scales, fangs etc. are (or could be) important potion ingredients, which means that a parselmouth, being able to gain them, has a benefit! As for other species... maybe Dumbledore can speak with Fawkes? Few wizards can tame a phoenix, after all. And how many (besides Dumbledore) can speak Mermish? How many wizards can speak Gibbledegook? Who knows, though - we may yet see... A toad. Maybe Toadsweat is a potion ingredient...? At any case, most pets wizards have, are *magical* somehow... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 14:57:53 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:57:53 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126001 > Hannah : Yes, I agree with you Sandy (some good arguments > there), and I'll add on my own favourite arguments against > the 'separate OWLs for practical and theory' hypothesis. Firstly, it > makes no sense from an academic point of view. OK, I know that is > true of quite a few things about Hogwarts that are canon, but I > still think it stands. > > If OWLs were awarded separately for practical and theory, then what > would be the incentive for a lot of kids who don't like memorising > things, writing essays, etc. to bother with the theory side? If you > can get your practical Charms OWL and perform the magic you want, > why would you bother to do all the book learning if you don't enjoy > it? And likewise, what would be the use of a Charms theory OWL if > you were actually incapable of performing any of the Charms? In > fact, if this were the case, a Muggle could go in and pass the > theory OWLs if they were taught the facts. > > I think the theory and the practical for magic are inextricably > linked, rather like science in the RL. You don't have two separate > GCSEs (RL OWL equivalent) for 'practical science' and 'theoretical > science.' Rather the science exam is made up of both a theoretical > and a practical element. If you understand the theory but cannot > actually design and perform experiments, you can't be an effective > scientist (I left the profession for that very reason - too clumsy), > but likewise it's no good being able to perform the practical parts > without any understanding of the theory behind what you're trying to > do. The same goes for other subjects, like music, PE, drama etc. I > see magic in the same way. > > My other argument, in addition to those given already by other > posters, is when McGonagall talks to Harry about the grades needed > to be an Auror. She is talking about Transfiguration, Charms, > Potions, DADA - all the subjects that are most often suggested as > being separated into two elements. But she doesn't say 'and that > means both parts, practical and theory' and nor does Harry ask if it > has to be for both parts, or either part, or one part more than the > other. Finwitch: Well, their exams take two weeks, (and weekend is off). TEN DAYS. They take, for most part, one subject a day. Of course, as Astronomy Practical takes place at midnight and History of Magic cannot have practical part... so 12 OWLS maximum is decently estimated. (Of course, it MIGHT be possible to use a time-turner for more, but TERRIBLY exhausting!) Yes, I'd say Owl per subject does well enough. Theory-part, Lunch- break, practical-part... (except that Astronomy was midnight and thus not really involved...) But we'll see Harry's grades in July, right? That will tell us... but what about the NEWTs? Finwitch From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 16:59:11 2005 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:59:11 -0000 Subject: The Prohecy In-Reply-To: <20050313000401.67145.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126002 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jina haymaker wrote: > > Brodeur wrote: > I was just reading over OOTP and I was wondering why Lord Voldemort had so > much "faith" in Trelawney. Everybody seems to think that she is loony and > crazy. Why is it that Voldy would care so much about a Prophecy made by somebody > who he knows nothing about? Besides the fact that a Prophecy is not always > correct or true. > > > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > I think that Voldy trusted this Prohecy because Trewlawney went into her trance like state and then predicted what was to happen. There seems to be very few true predictions but you can tell the different between them. Wasn't Trewlawney's grandmother a very well repected Seer? mhbobbin writes: Was the spy interested in the meeting between DD and Trelawney because of DD or because of Trelawney? If it was DD, was the spy following DD already or did he just happen to be at The Hogs Head when DD showed up to meet a Seer? A mtg between DD and anyone might be interesting to a spy, but a Seer is potentially very interesting. Ostensibly, Voldemort's spies would often be at Hogsemead/Hog's Head, and perhaps this Spy just got lucky that these two walked in for a meeting while he was there. DD's story is that he was willing to meet Sybill out of respect for her grandmother Cassandra Trelawney, who was a famous seer. He indicates he had low expectations for the mtg. I'm willing to accept that there was no more to his rationale for meeting her than he has told us (although he so often holds something back) but how very interesting such a meeting would be for a spy. DD's willingness to meet with this seer immediately gives the seer some credibility, whether or not deserved. The surprise prophecy would be of interest to Voldemort simply becuz it was made to DD. That it was made in a trance probably enhanced its credibility. I'm not so sure that Trelawney is a fraud. She seems to be more right than not in what she sees, although not in divining the meaning. I'm also curious as to whether Cassandra had difficulty getting people to take her seriously, given her name. Perhaps she only became credible after her demise. mhbobbin From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 17:08:16 2005 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:08:16 -0000 Subject: Dung as Spy? (Was Re: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: <1de.3700ace1.2f6475b7@wmconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126003 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, adesahafford at w... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/05 9:25:42 AM Central Standard Time, > HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > Just imagine if he knew of the prophecy (maybe he was the one thrown > > out of Hog's Head?) > > I'd always assumed that was Mundungus. Didn't Lupin or Moody say Dung hadn't > been allowed at the Hog's Head for nearly 20 years, and that's why he had to > be disguised to overhear the DA formation meeting. > Adesa > mhbobbin: I've always wondered if it was Dung as well for this reason. BUT-- why would DD have Dung (who is part of the old gang mentioned at end of Goblet of Fire) in the Order, if he was this particular spy. He was likely already in the Order when the Prophecy was given (it being only a bit more than a year before the end) and yet Aberforth threw him out. I do believe that DD must know who the spy was, given that Aberforth discovered the spy. I think we're probably all a bit distrustful of Dung, given that his name was linked with Umbridge in the Fred and George gag, and other behaviors. Dung is only loyal to Dung I think. Anyway, I suspect Dung is some king of spy now but wasn't The Prophecy Spy. mhbobbin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 17:27:31 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:27:31 -0000 Subject: Sir Nick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126004 Alla wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/125985 : If you have not seen it yet, Leaky Caudron mentions that JKR updated her website (Extra stuff section, characters). There is a poem which Nearly headless Nick was supposed to recite in CoS to tell abou this beheading. JKR's editor did not like the song that much at that time. :) Rita Winston: But that poem has been on her website for a long time! It is not a very good poem, but answers some of our curiosity about Sir Nick, why he was sentenced to be beheaded, altho' not why he's a Gryffindor (WHAT courage?). In OoP, Nick seemed not very happy about his decision to stay a ghost instead of proceeding into the unknown, and I kind of hope he gets a chance to resume that journey, altho' nowhere near as much as I hope someone can put Myrtle out of her (and our) misery! > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=11. Alla: It was? Ooops. Sorry! I thought I visited that section couple of times previously and I guess managed not to notice it. I wonder why Leaky only talked about it yesterday though. Anyways, I am stil wondering if Nick will play bigger role in HBP and I do agree with you - PLEASE, someone put Murtle out of her misery. :) Alla From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 19:47:55 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:47:55 -0000 Subject: JKR website update ( Nearly Headless Nick) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > If you have not seen it yet, Leaky Caudron mentions that JKR updated > her website (Extra stuff section, characters). There is a poem which > Nearly headless Nick was supposed to recite in CoS to tell about his > beheading. JKR's editor did not like the song that much at that > time. :) > > Anyways, my question would be whether the reason that JKR posted it > now is to give us more interesting details about past books or to > give us more of HBP-related hints? > > Do you think we'll see more of Nick in HBP? What do you think his > role could be IF it were to increase? > > Since I am fond of speculation that Harry will somehow go behind the > Veil to try and find Sirius there, I thought maybe Nick will be > Harry's guide, but then I realised that he as ghost cannot really go > in that > world, or can he? > > What do you guys think? > > Alla. a_svirn: The ballad has been on the site for ages. TLC only mentioned it because JKR decided to donate the original draft to the Scottish Dictionary. a-svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 19:54:29 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:54:29 -0000 Subject: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: <1de.3700ace1.2f6475b7@wmconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126006 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, adesahafford at w... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/12/05 9:25:42 AM Central Standard Time, > HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > Just imagine if he knew of the prophecy (maybe he was the one thrown > > out of Hog's Head?) > > I'd always assumed that was Mundungus. Didn't Lupin or Moody say Dung hadn't > been allowed at the Hog's Head for nearly 20 years, and that's why he had to > be disguised to overhear the DA formation meeting. > Adesa > "When we started homeschooling, I felt as though I had tucked a child > under each arm and jumped off a cliff. Imagine my surprise to discover we > have wings." ~Maura Seger a_svirn: That's exactly why I don't think he could be a spy. The Prophesy was made 16 years from OotP, no 20. a_svirn From cat_kind at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 21:12:06 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:12:06 -0000 Subject: The theory of Harry Potter symbolising the Path of Alchemical Liberation. In-Reply-To: <20050305152114.85510.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126007 Hans: > I understand what you're saying. There are several ways you could > familiarise yourself with this Path. All my main posts to HPFGU > since April 2003 are also in the message archive of the Yahoo > group: Harry Potter for Seekers: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotterforseekers/messages. > If you read my messages in chronological order you will see a > gradual development and you should be able to "get it" alright. catkind: That's precisely where I don't "get it". In your posts you explain the path in terms of Harry Potter. That would be a reasonable standpoint if you were trying to recruit an audience of HP fans to the Path, or if you were trying to create a new religion based on HP. But if, as you claim, you are trying to demonstrate that Harry Potter is analogous to the Path, you need to define the path independently of HP. The comparisons with other religions are more confusing than enlightening. Are we expected to take a kind of lowest common denominator for all the traditions you bring up and compare Harry Potter to that? But the religions you refer to barely agree on anything other than that there exists some kind of spiritual world and it's probably a good idea to think about it. If you don't tell us what the Path is in and of itself, it seems like you are simply drawing a collection of parallels between various religious traditions and HP and then claiming this proves HP is based on some undefined fundamental truth. Any features of the religions which don't fit HP can then be thrown away as being features of that particular tradition and not of the fundamental truth. I could pick any other book and do the same thing, just as effectively. We don't know what you believe unless you tell us, Hans. You may believe it's the fundamental underlying truth of all things, but you still need to tell us what exactly you think this truth is before you can usefully compare it to Harry Potter. Hans: > To understand what I mean by etheric, astral etc. read > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotterforseekers/messages/566 > (The Structure of the Universe). This will explain a lot. I do use > these words in the traditional sense, as also used by the > Theosophists, the Anthroposophists etc. But feel free to ask. catkind: Oops, guess I'm coming from a different traditional background. By "traditional meaning" I meant the meaning I will find in a dictionary. For example, "ether" was a posited fluid substance of space itself through which light waves were believed to propagate, a theory later disproved in experiments (that is, assuming you don't mean the chemical compound). "Astral" means to do with stars. Hans in above quoted message: > Each of the seven Cosmic Planes is further divided up > into seven sub-planes. We call these sub-planes, in > order of vibration rate starting at the lowest: > physical, etheric, astral, mental, the mental ideation > plane, the emotional ideation plane and the > consciousness ideation plane (Other people give them > different names). catkind: Do I understand from the above quote that you use "etheric" simply as a name for this second sub-plane? Could I just as well call it "beta" or "level two" or "cheese"? Otherwise I'm still short a useful definition of etheric. The other names are more evocative: physical, for example, or mental. The quoted message raises another question: You give there some very detailed physical or geometric description of these higher planes. Do you believe that they literally exist in any sense, say in a fourth dimension which we cannot see? Or is this another analogy? If the former, what evidence do you have for this belief, or where does it come from? Hans: > What I'm saying is that the teachings in the gospels were in fact > taken by the early church and made out to be their sole property. > I deny ownership of the gospels and I feel I can and should > compare Harry Potter to the gospels as well as the Alchemical > Wedding or whatever else I can see parallels with. catkind: Given the number of branches of Christianity there are today, many rebuilt from the basis of the Bible alone and independent of the early church, I don't really feel it's necessary to repossess the gospels. If it is vital to the point you want to make, then I'd say you have the right to give your own interpretation, and Christians have the right to disagree with you. Don't forget the gospels have been extensively studied over the ages, both from a religious and a historical standpoint. If you make claims that contradict established historical truth, or interpret the Christian Bible inconsistently, you can certainly expect to be argued with. If it's not important to your point, it would be polite to leave other people's religions alone. I would also point out that whether your sect is repressed or not has no relevance to whether they're right or not! Hans: > Why get so excited? Because Liberation is the most wonderful, > ecstatic and rapturous thing there is. catkind: This doesn't answer my question at all. I'm not asking why you're excited about Liberation, you're entitled to be excited about your own religion:-> The question is why you are excited that it shows up again in HP, when you claim it shows up practically everywhere else already. If I may presume to venture an analogy of my own, consider Christianity and C.S.Lewis's children's books. The Narnia series is a strong allegory of Christianity, but I don't see any Christians running around basing new religions on Narnia! Hans: > In the interview you're quoting she didn't say she was a > Christian. She was talking about "if she believes in God", and > she said she does. That could be interpreted to mean she's > a Moslem, a Jew, a Rosicrucian, a Gnostic, a Manichaean, etc. catkind: Nonetheless, Rowling is known to attend a Presbyterian church. Sorry. Hans: > If I compared Harry Potter to the Path of Liberation without > referring to other parallels you wouldn't believe me. catkind: It's not so much that I don't believe you as I don't see a concrete point to agree or disagree with. You're trying to compare HP to something you haven't defined! Hans: > Yes it would make it much simpler if I compared Harry Potter only > to, say "The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross". catkind: Personally, I'd find this much more interesting. Sorry if I sound a bit confrontational here, Hans. I'm genuinely interested in your posts because I think there's things about the HP characters in there that would make for interesting discussion if only I could figure out what you're actually saying. I wouldn't be replying otherwise. catkind, drowning in analogies From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 13 21:31:22 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:31:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Draco Malfoy Message-ID: <20050313213122.11930.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126008 For many months I have pondered on what Draco must personify. Very recently I worked out that Draco's parents must personify the physical body if Dobby personifies the etheric body, because that's what the etheric body is shackled to. This was confirmed by the name Narcissa, as I told you yesterday. Then it suddenly hit me. I asked myself, if the Malfoys are the physical body, their son must be something in the physical body, part of it. Draco means snake, so what in the body could be called "snake"? Then it hit me! It's so obvious! The spinal cord! And the exciting thing is, in a recent post I told you that the force within the spinal cord is called the serpent-fire. So that's my conclusion: Draco personifies the spinal cord with the fiery serpent-force that rules the cerebro-spinal system. To some of you this may sound far-fetched, but this is entirely consistent with the teachings of liberation. The new soul, Harry, is born. This is a new vital force that spreads through the blood to the head. From there it descends down the right string of the sympathetic nervous system. It defeats the kundalini as symbolised in book 2, and then ascends along the left string of the sympathetic nervous system. Meanwhile the old serpent-fire in the spinal cord just carries on supporting the government of the physical body and carrying the commands of the old consciousness, which is a creature of Lucifer. To make Harry Potter such an exciting and intriguing book, Jo exaggerates and over-dramatises things. The point about Draco is that the new soul-force, though increasing in power and strength within the apprentice alchemist, is hampered in its development by the old serpent-fire if this engages in ego-centric activities. To go the Path of Alchemical Liberation, the whole four- fold system of the candidate for liberation has to co-operate in self-surrender to the new soul-force. We as normal human beings are not used to that type of living. As I said in my post on Peter, we are used to fending for ourselves and making sure we survive in life. As soon as the new soul is born, we must stop doing that and reverse our way of living by totally surrendering to the new soul. It will then take care of our life. That is the real meaning of conversion. We must surrender completely to the new soul and let him, Harry, rule our lives. However such a complete reversal of one's way of life is not accomplished overnight and especially in the beginning the candidate makes many mistakes because old habits die hard. He often makes egocentric decisions which harm the new soul-force that is slowly descending down the sympathetic cord. Jo symbolises this as Draco being horrible to Harry. Despite Draco's taunts and jibes Harry keeps growing in strength and grace, and eventually, after defeating the kundalini, he moves up the left string of the sympathetic nerve. On the way up he turns the chakras in the opposite direction to how they were turning before. Then, when he reaches Dumbledore's office, i.e. the pineal gland and the crown chakra, he enters the light-birth of God. This is the moment the Holy Spirit descends into the alchemist and he sees God for the first time. At that same moment the new soul fills the cerebro-spinal system. Until then it filled only the sympathetic strings in the spine, but now it fills the spinal cord as well. The serpent-fire is reborn and is now immortal. I don't know how Jo will describe this. Either Draco will die and Harry take his place, or, as I think more likely, Draco will surrender to Harry and become his ally. In any case, Harry will replace Draco. I tend to think that Jo will make the Malfoys see the error of their ways and serve Harry somehow, with all three Malfoys coming to Harry's aid. The successful apprentice, as soon as he becomes a fully qualified alchemist, uses his physical body to help people find the Path of Liberation as long as his body lasts. As long as he has a physical body people can see him and he can communicate with them. So that's how I think the Malfoys will end up, by assisting Harry when he has become a Bodhisattva. I know it seems unlikely at the moment, but that's my prediction. -oOo- Yesterday I mentioned that Lucius is a special part of the physical body. Let's work it out. His son is pale and has a long, pointed face. Lucius is also pale. In Draco's case the longevity points to the length of the spinal cord and the paleness is the colour of the spinal cord. Ergo: Lucius is the brain with its consciousness. The spinal cord is a kind of "son" of the brain. It comes out of the brain, doesn't it? Dear Friends, there may be some among you who think I'm making all this up as I go along. "There's no such thing as serpent-fire" or whatever. However I challenge you to type "serpent-fire" into your search engine and see whether I'm making all this up. I just did this and this is what I found at http://www.levity.com/alchemy/secret-fire.html: "In the East, all practices, whether designated as such or not, are designed to awaken the semi-dormant energy resident in all creation, and living beings in particular. This energy is known as Kundalini, The Serpent Fire, and the Dragon depending on tradition." Just to remind you: Draco means either Dragon or a kind of serpent in Latin. NB I don't in any way endorse the contents of the website referred to. The main reactions to my posts are from people who deny the validity of the Process of Liberation. These people forget the point that I'm not arguing the validity of the process itself (although only an idiot would not recognise my enthusiasm about it) but whether Harry Potter is a symbolical representation of this process. I hope the facts in this post have helped prove this. There is a lot more to come! "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 13 23:00:40 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:00:40 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four References: <1110686331.21641.59998.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000e01c52820$7b528fc0$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 126010 Steve wrote: >Given that Hogwarts was founded during a time of great oppression and >persecution of wizards, the apprentice method had probably not only >become impractical but dangerous. In addition, I'm sure the Founders >saw that under the old method, they simply could not train all the >available magical children. So, the idea of a central common school >for all magical children was born. >Now to one very important point, we have NO real evidence that >Slytherin was the pureblood-Nazi he is made out to be. All we really >know is that he didn't trust muggles, and given the times and >circumstances, that distrust was well founded, and note again, the >stakes were very high if anything went wrong. (Much snippage) I've speculated (can't remember if it was on-list or not) about this also. Consider how the material culture of the WW and the Muggle world in the 10th century might have differed and the implications for this for the newly founded Hogwarts. On one side of the new intake there are the wizard born kids. They speak wizard-Latin as a lingua franca. They (perhaps) know each other already. Their parents, being wizarding folk, have been able to provide them with the robes, books, etc they needs. They are literate and numerate. They understand what's going on. On the other side are the Muggle borns. They are mostly peasants. They speak (perhaps) seven different dialects of English, five of Irish, Irish, four of Welsh, Cornish, Cumbrian, Pictish, Gaelic, Manx, and Scots (but not Latin, any of them) so that they don't understand each other, leave alone the teachers. They don't understand what's going on, except that they've been abducted by witches and wizards and (according to what the priest has told them) they are going to be murdered and sacrificed to the devil. They are illiterate and innumerate. They consider magic to be dangerous and (possibly) evil. They have no material stuff, just what rags they stand up in. They are dirty, verminous, barefoot, and smelly. Potentially, they are just as magical as the wizard borns. But if Slytherin's mental picture of the school was an academy for the wizard born children who already knew the basics, then I can understand why this reality came as a shock. There's no point teaching someone the uses of dragon's blood if they don't know the use of fleabane or what a toilet is for. As Steve says, it's quite possible that others over the centuries have pinned their own political theories on Slytherin. I can criticise him for elitism, but, faced with the situation he was faced with, how many of us today would end up with Helga and how many with Salazar? I wonder Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Mar 13 23:08:15 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:08:15 -0000 Subject: History and Myth Behind HP In-Reply-To: <20050313104329.52937.qmail@web86705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126011 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kate Williams wrote: Fitzov: > The Chapter Title of "Spinner's End" also has me intrigued. It actually sounds more like a house name than a street name to me. I wonder, therefore, if this is the name of Sirius' own house: the one that he bought at the age of 17 with his Uncle Alphard's gold (OOtP, p104 (UK Ed.))? I've read some speculation that Sirius leaves Harry Grimmauld Place, but it seems more likely that he would leave him his own house that has more pleasant connections for him, whilst leaving Grimmauld Place to the Order. > > JKR has said that Harry leaves Privet Drive early in Book 6 for a 'pleasant reason'. Maybe this is to visit Spinner's End and discover more about his parents and Sirius there. > > BTW, the Weston-Super-Mare connection is interesting. WSM is a seaside town near to Bristol and therefore, probably not far from Godric's Hollow. (Hagrid flies over Bristol on his way from Godric's Hollow to Surrey.) Geoff: We had a long series of contributions last year about Spinners End and asociated ideas. If you pick up in the archive at about message 116923 and follow through (the threads sometimes change names), you might find some posts which may be of interest. It also includes some discussion that Godric's Hollow is in Wales and not Somerset..... From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 13 23:11:17 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:11:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups]"other ways of destroying a man . . ." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050313231117.41579.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126012 Steve wrote: So, to some extent, Dumbledore is bluffing. He is speaking in a strong confident voice that hides the fact that he is limited in what he can do. [snip] I don't think Dumbledore is lying to Voldemort, he believes everything he says. There are things worse than death, and there are fundamental truths the Voldemort just doesn't get. I also believe that Dumbledore is attempting to mentally disarm or undermine Voldemort by calling him Tom. In a sense, implying to Voldemort that he can try to make himself out as a god, but Dumbledore knows him for the insecure boy that he is. [snip] Dumbledore knows he can't kill Voldemort, so he bluffs and plays head games with him. me: I don't see this side of DD. I know DD is unorthodox but I don't think he would take this opportunity to play games with LV--right in front of Harry. I know what you mean, but the connotation of "bluffing" and "playing head game" is off IMO. I agree he is using psychology by calling him Tom. I think he is also using psychology in his statements about what they both know but I don't think he is just stalling or playing his way through this. If DD fails to defend against LV attacks, Harry could die that day. He is using all he has mentally and physically to defend--not to kill, i agree, but definitely not to play with. Head games are played for no purpose except the enjoyment of the one playing them. DD is not that simple. Yes, there are things LV does not get and I believe that is how he will eventually be defeated. I think DD is making smart remarks that may possibly undermine LV's confidence. I do not think DD is laying the ground work for redeeming Riddle (as someone suggested else where). > Amiable Dorsai: > > > "merely taking your life would not satisfy me." My first thought >was that Dumbledore wants revenge for some of the grief that Riddle > has caused, ... Could it be that Dumbledore wants to use Riddle-->or,at least, his power, to in some way heal the damage that he's > caused? > > ...edited.. > > A true victory for the forces of light would be to kill not just > Voldemort, but the *idea* of Voldemort. > me: Maybe that is so. I defiantly feel like there is something more than just killing Voldemort. Something more happened with Tom--I'm sure of it. But, as I stated above, I do not think LV will be redeemed. bboyminn: In addition, because of the Prophecy, Dumbledore assumes that Harry is the only person who can truly rid the world of Voldemort. Me: I don't think DD has told us all he knows about the prophesy. DD kept saying that his coming to love Harry is what could mess this all up--DD's concern for Harry's happiness is dangerous because it leads him away from being concerned for all the "countless and nameless" people who have been and will be harmed by LV. DD started to come clean with Harry at the end of OOTP but no way has he finished. bboyminn: As to what some of these 'other ways of destroying a man' might be. A few things occur to me. First, and most obvious, is the Dementor's Kiss. That certainly destroys a man without killing him. Another might be the loss of magical powers. Can you imagine, all magical power force from Voldemort's body by Harry /special power/? Poor Voldemort, force to live out his days as the very thing he despises; a muggle. me: But this exchange read more personal than that to me. If he was just talking about all the possible ways to destroy people without killing him, DD could say, "We all know" or simply "There are worse . . ." His comment, "We *both* know. . ." sounds personal to me. It sounds like LV/Tom did something very horrible that did or didn't go the way it was meant to go--either way both DD and LV know about it and both recognized it as being horrible. thanks for those thoughts, You got me thinking in new ways now. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 14 00:16:54 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:16:54 -0000 Subject: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126013 > bboyminn: > > This has been discussed on and off on various occassions, but it is > good question because I think many people have a very distorted idea > of what went on way back then, and an even more distorted idea about > Salazar Slytherin. > > First, the selection of students by some characteristic (Smart, > Brave, Hardworking/Loyal, Ambitious) is a separate issue from why > the Founders had a falling out. > Valky: I don't think so. In the sorting Hat's New song it says: These differences caused little strife When *first* they came to life (my emphasis), implying that the differences were a larger problem later than they were to begin with. And later the discord creeping among Hogwarts causes the "Houses" to turn upon each other, not the individuals. The fallout and the house values go hand in hand. > bboy: > The House characteristics were simply a method for the Founders to > select the students that would do best under their tutelage; very > much as they had always done under the Apprentice system but with a > greater number of student. Valky: I disagree again. The sorting was no pre-ordained measure. It was resolution to the disagreement about which students the whole school should accept in. The sortng hats new song: Said Slytherin '*We'll* teach just those who ancestry is purest' and same again for Godric and for Rowena, however Helga alone says "I'll teach the lot" which I suspect might mean that the others followed her lead on this matter and arranged to have their own house. *my emphasis. bboy: > Given that Helga Hufflepuff wasn't too particular > about her students, they were assured that all students would get an > adequate education. > Valky: But the others didn't do this to be assured every magic child would get an education, three of the founders clearly approached the situation with an opinion on *which type* of magic children to teach, I think you are applying Helga Hufflepuff's ideal to all of the founders which would be incorrect. They more likely did it because Helga had pointed out the error of their ways to them, and definitely to remain friends and out of respect for each other. > bboy: > The split between the Founders did not come because of student House > characteristics, but because of Slytherins distrust of muggles, and > therefore muggle-borns. Remember that wizards at this time in > historywere greatly persecuted by muggles. Valky: But JKR has pointed this out to be relatively laughable a situation in Harrys History of Magic essay on Witch burning. OTOH I agree that the distrust of Muggles in itself is a justifiable position. > bboy: > Now to one very important point, we have NO real evidence that > Slytherin was the pureblood-Nazi he is made out to be. All we really > know is that he didn't trust muggles, Valky: Except for that monster hidden in the Hogwarts basement, created to massacre innocent children because they are Muggleborn... > bboy: > I have no problem seeing the conflict over the admittance of > muggle-born students escalating to the level it apparently did. > There was a lot at stake, and the consequences of a mistake were > grave indeed. Ultimatley, Slytherin saw that he was out numbered and > could not win, so he was face with warring with people he once > counted as friends, or leaving the school. I think, in leaving the > school, Salazar did a very noble and selfless thing. > Valky: Nor I, but I still think that Salazar became essentially irrational about the danger from muggle children. Any real threat would be the result of actions by an individual or relatively small contingent of these children, yet he had decided that it would be better to kill them all than deal with this. Why should he win that battle? Salazar leaving may have been a noble act, but then again why should we consider it as having been selfless when he vowed vengeance via the Basilisk and the COS, there is far more evidence that his leaving was in bitterness than in nobility. > bboy: > Not saying I'm right, but that's how I see it. > Valky: Not saying I am right either, but as I see it the Chamber of Secrets is where Tom learned he wanted to be like Slytherin, indicating that what Tom Riddle has become is a good measure of what Salazar Slytherin may have had in mind for himself, at least in basis. The sorting hats new song says the houses 'divided sought to rule', This is what Voldemort does. I think Salazar was most likely a good person (his friends loved him and mourned his leaving), but his love of ambition unbalanced his path in life (he created the chamber of secrets and he lost himself in murderous intent). From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 00:22:34 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:22:34 -0000 Subject: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four In-Reply-To: <000e01c52820$7b528fc0$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126014 Steve: Now to one very important point, we have NO real evidence that Slytherin was the pureblood-Nazi he is made out to be. All we really know is that he didn't trust muggles, and given the times and circumstances, that distrust was well founded, and note again, the stakes were very high if anything went wrong. (Much snippage) Ffred: I've speculated (can't remember if it was on-list or not) about this also. As Steve says, it's quite possible that others over the centuries have pinned their own political theories on Slytherin. I can criticise him for elitism, but, faced with the situation he was faced with, how many of us today would end up with Helga and how many with Salazar? Alla: I speculated about it too and while I think that Steve's post and Ffred's was very well-reasoned, I will hold off warm and fuzzy feelings towards dear Salazar for a while. NO, I don't necessarily think that he was a pureblood Nazi, YES, it is possible that his prejudice towards muggle - borns was understandable because of external persecution, but some rational reasons can always be found by those who hold the said prejudice and I hold against the Salazar the fact that he started all that. He could have meant well ( and it is a possibility, I absolutely concede), he could have NOT, because as far as I can remember we have no eveidence yet that basilisk was left at school as defensive measure. ( I will eat my words, if someone points me to the contrary canon, of course, :)) And offensive measures against all muggle borns is not something that I can sympathize with under any circumstances. Besides, I tend to take as true the fact that real witches were able to escape persecution. Maybe Salasar should have done better research before he started disliking muggle-borns. Again, I do think that with centuries pureblood ideology significantly increased in hatred, maybe Salasar had good intentions and executed them badly, after all founders WERE best friends at one time. But with the limited facts I have now, Salsar does not get much respect from me, except for the fact that he DID participate in foundation of Hogwarts. This is of course just my opinion, Alla From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 01:04:41 2005 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:04:41 -0000 Subject: hogwartsprofessor [was: Symbolism in Half-Blood Prince and preceding titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos > wrote: > > A.J. wrote: (If you go, hunh? you can check his > > existing books, or notes on hogwartsprofessor.com, to see for > > yourself what you think of his writings.) > > > > A.J., I went to hogwartsprofessor.com and found something totally > different. The page said > > > > I hope you didn't send me to some strange place that recorded my > > visit and is going to hi-jack my server or whatever--I have had that > > happen and it was a crazy endeavor to clean it all out. > > > > Theotokos > > > > Valky: > Hogwartsprofessor is John Grangers site (without looking upthread) I > have visited myself and it's terrific and definitely legit. I checked > the link just now and you are right it's not the same at all, but be > assured no malice was intended by A.J. I am certain. I think that it > may be J.G. who has been hijacked. I had checked the site just a day or some hours before posting the above, and it was fine! I just looked and yes, something weird is going on. Sorry, folks... no idea what happened, but that site was fine just the other day... Anyhow, maybe do a web search for links to the alchemy articles, which appear on some other sites. A.J. From dontask2much at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 01:07:59 2005 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (Charme) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:07:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as HBP References: <20050313110232.95388.qmail@web86710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004701c52832$43d49bd0$6501a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 126016 Fitzov said: > Has anyone else puzzled over the use of the word 'Prince' as opposed to > the much more discussed term 'Half-Blood'? > > Fitzov Charme: Well, the acronym "PRINCE" stands for Projects In Controlled Environments (it's a project management term)...naaa, that wouldn't be it. The word "prince" doesn't have to mean the royal connotation it's normally given. It also can be used for a chief man of state, official, or governor, which - how about this - could apply to the Minister of Magic. Timely that, as we're going to be getting a new one... Charme From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 02:23:15 2005 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 02:23:15 -0000 Subject: Draco's Detour? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126017 Draco has been paralleled to Dudley more times than enough, most likely due to their upbringing, but why? In Dudley's case, I think that Petunia overcompensates by attending to every whim to make Dudley feel that he is more important to her than Harry but why would Draco portrait the same type of characteristics as Dudley? What did the Malfoy's do that were A-typical of the Dursley's that made each of their offspring react similarly? Oh yeah they gave him everything he wanted. You see what happens when you put someone on a pedestal and spoil him like a prince. Draco is worthless, at least to Voldemort. Draco, like Dudley, expects to be served, not to serve. Draco is afraid of Voldemort; Voldemort would use him as a doormat. Draco is definitely not his father's son. Where did Draco learn to be non-typical of his silver-tongued father his mother? Lucius wanted to send Draco to Durmstrang but his mother didn't agree. Narcissa may not be what she has been perceived to be in its entirety! " Father actually considered sending me to Durmstrang rather than Hogwarts, you know. He knows the headmaster, you see. Well, you know his opinion of Dumbledore- the man's such a Mudblood-lover- and Durmstrang doesn't admit that sort of riffraff. But Mother didn't like the idea of me going to school so far away. Father says Durmstrang takes a far more sensible line than Hogwarts about the Dark Arts. Durmstrang students actually learn them, not just the defense rubbish we do " GOF pg. 165 U.S. Narcissa in rejecting Durmstrang for her son may be giving a subtle indication that she is not in favor of their teachings although her reasons for not sending him to Durmstrang, as far as her son and husband are concerned, were that it was too far. What is too far away for a witch who can apparate or use floo powder, sounds like a lame excuse if I ever heard one, unless Narcissa doesn't want her son to be like his father. If this is true, why did Lucius marry Narcissa if she did not have the same ruthlessness as her sister Bella and why did Narcissa agree to marriage if her ideals where not the same as her beloved two words, pure and blood. Even by Bella's own remarks at the Ministry, her main concern seemed to be about purity of blood: "Shut your mouth!" Bellatrix shrieked. "You dare speak his name with your unworthy lips, you dare besmirch it with your half-blood's tongue, you dare-" "Did you know he's a half-blood too?" said Harry recklessly. OOP pg. 784 U.S. Bella at this point sent a stupefy spell at Harry but Lucius deflected it for fear of damaging the prophecy. Bella takes great pride in the pureblood status (even beyond sacrificing the precious prophecy orb) that the Black family holds near and dear. Sirius left his family for this very reason: "Because I hated the whole lot of them: my parents, with their pure- blood mania, convinced that to be a Black made you practically royal " OOP pg. 111 U.S. That is Bella's conviction about pure blood; it makes you practically royal and her sister Narcissa was also held in high regard by marrying a pure blood but did Narcissa want to marry Lucius or was he just a status symbol of the ideal pairing? "The pure-blood families are all interrelated," said Sirius. "If you're only going to let your sons and daughters marry purebloods your choice is very limited " OOP pg. 113 Aha! Was Narcissa limited in whom she chose to marry? Do you think Narcissa holds to the same values as her husband? If not, what do you think Narcissa may do now that her husband is in Azkaban? Do you think this might have anything to do with Draco's detour in the upcoming book? I'm thinking Narcissa is much like Regulus (who after he got in too far and learned what was expected of him tried to leave), they both took stock in their pureblood status but not to the degree of Lucius or Bella; they're not willing to sacrifice or kill for it. I think it may be very possible that Narcissa attempts to lead her son to a safe haven while the battle resumes. Of the three Black sisters who are cousins to Sirius, the first cousin, Bella, is a known and proud supporter of Voldemort. The second is, Andromeda, who denounced her pure blood standing and married a muggle born Ted Tonks so, what type of personality are we left with for the third sister, Narcissa? I am going with the Regulus type who is proud of his pure blood status and joined with Voldemort to support `the cause' but could not get out once he was in. Narcissa is like Regulus but not dark-mark-devoted to Voldemort and his agenda and therefore has an opportunity that Regulus did not have. Narcissa is not going to take her pride beyond the limit of social acceptance nor jeopardize her son's life, at least in my opinion. Just for the record, I think that Narcissa is the youngest and saw her previous sister's decisions and the family's reaction to them, which was what provoked her into marrying the pure blood Lucius. Snow- a recovering thinker going into relapse all the time From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 14 02:41:53 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 02:41:53 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > > I think that could have been one of the problems of OOTP. She had > every so precisely planned out that she had to go ooc with a few of > the characters to get the to the spot they needed to be even though > it wouldn't really make since for them to do it, since she didn't > have the room to allow for changes in her narrative. > > Phoenixgod2000 I think you may well be on to something here, Phoenixgod. The tyranny of an outline could well explain the OOC characters in OOTP, along with many of the other contrived developments. An example is Ron suddenly being both a prefect and a Quidditch keeper. It just smacks of the author stacking together a series of sudden, strained, and implausible plot twists aimed at giving him what he saw in the Mirror of Erised -- which, by the way, I certainly hope is not the way things are headed. After all that about how the Mirror doesn't foretell the future I'll throw the book against the wall if it turned out the Mirror foretold the future, even by accident. I agree that Hermione suffers a great deal from authorial empathy, but I'm not sure that explains the problems with her in OOTP. I think much of it was that she was dragged along by the forced developments with many of the other characters. As they changed in rather unbelievable ways to reach the end state that JKR's outline dictated, her reactions had to change as well. In a way I feel rather sorry for her. Caught in a world gone mad she at least remains sane, if shrill. Oddly enough, I really didn't mind the developments with Ginny very much. Given the much greater problems presented by the other characters, I thought her sudden shifts were a relatively minor disruption. After all, we haven't heard much from her in a couple of books, and so at least there was the possibility that much of this had been going on sub-rosa. I agree with Betsy that JKR is probably heading for H/G. I agree with you, Phoenixgod, that the Ginny presented in OOTP doesn't seem a very good match for Harry. I'm not sure I'd agree Harry needs a "sweet" love interest. Given his experience in life, I'm not sure Harry would know how to deal with a sweet person. He would be very puzzled by that kind of temperment and considering the strains he is facing I don't know that he would have the ability to work through a new mode of interacting (which is one reason I have doubts about Harry and Luna - talk about needing a new mode of interacting!) On the other hand, given Harry's increase in temper and decrease in patience, which I expect are long-term trends, I can't see him putting up with a very combative person in the near future, either. At present all I can see Harry doing with Ginny as presented in OOTP is descending gradually into a battle of wills punctuated by increasing snarkiness. Of course, that may change when the contents of the prophecy are revealed and the attitudes of Ginny and others around Harry shift accordingly. If Ginny can maintain her sense of humor and cultivate a version of Molly's strong will marked by calm, firmness, and patience as opposed to her mother's bossiness, I could easily see Ginny as being very good for Harry. Lupinlore From gelite67 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 03:27:34 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:27:34 -0000 Subject: The Prohecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126019 --- > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jina haymaker > wrote: > > > > Brodeur wrote: > > I was just reading over OOTP and I was wondering why Lord > Voldemort had so > > much "faith" in Trelawney. Everybody seems to think that she is > loony and > > crazy. Angie replies: As someone pointed out, her grandmother was a famous Seer. But beyond that, Voldemort surely knew that part of the prophesy had come true when two couples who had thrice defied him had gave birth toward the end of July. I don't think Trewlawny is a fraud. She's not very productive, to be sure. Only two real prophesies -- not many, but enough to keep her from being a fraud, I'd say. What I wonder is if she is even aware that she made the first prophesy; she certainly didn't seem to be aware that she made the second in POA, and seemed horrified when Harry told her what she'd said. Perhaps she doesn't think she truly has the gift and that's why she's so over the top trying to convince everyone, including herself. Probably a lot of pressure in her family toward that end. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 03:52:36 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:52:36 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]"other ways of destroying a man . . ." In-Reply-To: <20050312024910.37519.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: > > In Ch.36 of OOTP when DD and LV are battling in the MOM, DD sends various spells toward LV while LV appears to mainly rely upon AK. > > "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" snarled Voldemort. > > "You are quite wrong," said Dumbledore, [snip] "Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness--" > Angie replies: I think, at least in part, that DD may be referring to the fact that some of Voldemort's opponents would rather die than serve him. I believe Sirius mentioned to the Weasley children, when Arthur was in the hospital in OOP that their father understood that some things are worth dying for. It could also be a reference to the fact that some people are willing to die to save someone else. So, for them it would be worse to live if, by dying, they could save someone they love. (Oh, no, the "L" word again.) After all, wasn't that the case with Lily? Voldemort either forgot or didn't place much stock in sacrificial love and look where it led him. Or perhaps that's it. To Dumbledore, living without being able to experience love is worse than dying. Too, I wonder precisely what DD means by "weakness?" The inability to perfectly achieve what VM wants to achieve? A vulnerability that will ultimately lead to VM's defeat? Tunnel-vision when it comes to death that prevents VM from seeing things as they really are? IMO, this statement is more than DD merely giving his opinion of death. I believe it is related to something that will ultimately lead to VM's downfall. So far, we know VM will go to any means to avoid death and that he cannot reside in a body where love lives. I don't know what other weaknesses he has. But, I believe that since he is now in human form again, he can now be killed. I think Harry's blood has contributed to that and that was why DD was pleased to find out VM could touch Harry in GOF. But perhaps I digress . . . . From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 14 04:21:06 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 04:21:06 -0000 Subject: Draco's Detour? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126021 > Snow: > Narcissa may > not be what she has been perceived to be in its entirety! > > > " Father actually considered sending me to Durmstrang rather than > Hogwarts, you know. He knows the headmaster, you see. Well, you know > his opinion of Dumbledore- the man's such a Mudblood-lover- and > Durmstrang doesn't admit that sort of riffraff. But Mother didn't > like the idea of me going to school so far away. Father says > Durmstrang takes a far more sensible line than Hogwarts about the > Dark Arts. Durmstrang students actually learn them, not just the > defense rubbish we do " GOF pg. 165 U.S. > What is too far away > for a witch who can apparate or use floo powder, sounds like a lame > excuse if I ever heard one, unless Narcissa doesn't want her son to > be like his father. > > Just for the record, I think that Narcissa is the youngest and saw > her previous sister's decisions and the family's reaction to them, > which was what provoked her into marrying the pure blood Lucius. > Valky: Oooh this is good Snow! I have been slowly coming to the conclusion that HBP is going to reveal a whole new left field degree of grey in the WW demographic, I had tentatively placed Molly somewhere near its fringes but I overlooked Narcissa until now. To elaborate, after having read your terrific post here, I am able to imagine Narcissa as the youngest sister. It's a surprisingly good fit really, Andromeda and Bella are painted as such strong willed and powerfully confident young ladies it is easy to imagine that a "third wheel" on the cart would develop sense of having less importance. That could so logically be Narcissa as we know Lucius does like to surround himself with weaker people whom he can "control". I am liking this more and more, but I have to run to pick up children now... > Snow- a recovering thinker going into relapse all the time Valky - Firmly in denial (I do not have a thinking problem, thankyou.) ;D From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 05:03:59 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:03:59 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c52820$7b528fc0$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126022 The problem I have, personally, about all the stories we have heard about the Founders - save the Sorting Hat, who is the only primary source we can really have - is that these stories are about people that lived a thousand years ago, spread by word of mouth. We only have the Sorting Hat to tell us any truth of the matter. I think we can reasonably assume the Salazar Slytherin *built* the Chamber of Secrets - after all, it is no small feat to have a large underground chamber to be built after the fact, and have its construction and origins secret. But do we even know if Salazar left the basilisk? It is called, after all, the Chamber of Secrets - not the Chamber of Death or etc. The term "secrets" indicates *potentially* harmful information only, but there is nothing malicious about it at all, and I would think that if you built a chamber to house a giant, murderous snake, you would call it something a bit different than "Chamber of Secrets." That is, of course, my opinion. I cannot know the mind of Rowling or Slytherin. =P How would the basilisk, who is nothing more than a magical snake, be able to discern a Muggleborn from any other student? My impression was that basilisks were nothing special in and of themselves. Indeed, if it were the only one of its kind, I doubt Hermione would be able to find much information on it in the library. So this is just one basilisk, what makes it so different than any other basilisk? If basilisks were Muggle-detectors, you would think that some of these other pureblood families might keep them around, eh? I think that the monster who was to rise up to kill those "unworthy" to study magic was something that was at completely dependent on who opened the Chamber. That person, a Parselmouth, and probably a descendent of Slytherin, would then be able to control the basilisk (you see that the snake that was attacking Justin immediately stopped upon Harry's command - it seems that being a Parselmouth doesn't just guarantee communication, but also control over the said snake) to do his or her bidding. If Slytherin indeed did leave the snake, we cannot immediately assume that it was left for the purpose of killing off Muggleborns until we get this information from a primary source - either the Sorting Hat, or the personal journal of one of the Founders or their students or someone who was AROUND at the time. The Sorting Hat said that the other Founders were sad after Slytherin's departure, which leads me to believe that whatever Slytherin was, he was well-liked by his peers. Such is, I doubt that he had many fights with them past this Muggleborn issue. Like Steve, I agree that Slytherin had a very justified reason to distrust the Muggles of the time. > bboy: > The split between the Founders did not come because of student House > characteristics, but because of Slytherins distrust of muggles, and > therefore muggle-borns. Remember that wizards at this time in > historywere greatly persecuted by muggles. >Valky: >But JKR has pointed this out to be relatively laughable a situation in >Harrys History of Magic essay on Witch burning. I am going to have to disagree with you when it comes to this certain issue, Valky. While JKR does say, through an essay, that the situation was laughable, that does not explain two things: How are children, or any witch or wizard of the time, who have not been educated, able to know the Charm to keep them from burning at the stake? Or drowning? Or saving themselves from any one of the horrible situations that we saw during the periods of time where people were persecuted for witchcraft? I do think that a fully educated witch or wizard could easily save themselves from a situation of being attacked by Muggles, but the people of the time of the Founders did not have a centralized education before they created Hogwarts. There was no way for anyone to know the magic they would need to freeze the fires, or the Bubble-head charms, or Apparation or any other number of spells. Which is why, I imagine, many of the magical people of the time WERE killed by Muggles, and why it would be justified for Slytherin to have something against them. Second, would a children's history book, being taught in precarious times such as these, tell the hard truth that witches and wizards who did not know any better were tortured and killed? What would this do, except possibly create more anti-Muggle sentiment? I doubt that Dumbledore would allow such a circuluum, even if it were the truth. I believe Harry's History of Magic book painted the issue with a flowery tale, and did not tell the entire truth of the matter. The Wizarding World as a whole seems to be in denial, IMHO. I do not mean to sing praises for Slytherin, but I also do not want to immediately assume that he is an evil maniac dark wizard just because Hagrid and Ronald Weasley do not like those of Slytherin House. I believe Voldemort has covered the deranged dark wizard role well enough, and because of that, many views have been tainted that otherwise may not have been. ;) --Lawless From kempermentor at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 07:58:20 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:58:20 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Salazar=92s_Separation_&_the_Chamber_of_Secrets_(was_Re:The_Falling-Out_of_the_Fou?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126023 Valky wrote (huge snip): I think Salazar was most likely a good person (his friends loved him and mourned his leaving), but his love of ambition unbalanced his path in life (he created the chamber of secrets and he lost himself in murderous intent). Kemper now: I don't see Salazar as an ambitious man. How many ambitious men in the world want to become teachers? He was a teacher who didn't wanted to teach Muggleborns. What's wrong with that? Gordic didn't want to teach cowards. Rowena didn't want to teach dumb-dumbs. Why is no one having a fit about that discrimination? The founders were teaching for years and knew about each others' preferences, and they obviously worked something out prior to the falling out, because all the students were being taught (thanks Helga). So, again, what's wrong with wanting to teach purebloods? Is it because it's xenophobic or maybe nepotistic? But then is wanting to teach only the courageous wrong because of its narrow-minded favoritism towards a single personality trait? Is wanting to teach only the smart kids intellectual elitism? I also don't see his murderous intent. Did Salazar set the Basilisk on Muggleborns or anyone for that matter? I think Salazar built the Chamber as a refuge. Maybe Salazar kept it from the others in case one of the students or Founders accidentally walked in to say hello only to be bitten or stared at by a Basilisk because he didn't close the Chamber all the way. I don't know. I also speculate that when Salazar left, he didn't go running around whispering into ears, "Hey there's this room in Hogwarts that I built I call it the Chamber of Secrets." No. I think it went more like this "Yeah I got this shield that makes a reverberating sound when a powerful spell hits it, but I left it in a room at a school for witchcraft and wizardry along with some other cool stuff no, I'm not going to say what the other stuff is and no, I don't want to go back and get it. It would be awkward. I'm just going to leave it there for some kid to find, that is.. if they can get past the security system No, it's not a monster that goes around killing all the people I don't trust . You'll like this, the security system is a language barrier yeah, so the kid will have to be like me." When you take out the boring parts, you're left with the ingredients of a tasty legend: Chamber of Secrets, monster, Heir of Slytherin. Kemper From loganlongbottom at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 16:01:02 2005 From: loganlongbottom at yahoo.com (Logan) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:01:02 -0000 Subject: Logan's HBP Theory - Dean Thomas Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126024 Well, the other day I was browsing jkrowling.com and came across one of the little prizes she gives you for exploring the site. Well, this one was about Dean Thomas, and I found out some really neat things. He was originally going to be a member of the Trio, and originally had bigger roles in book 1 and book 2. But this all was cut. So could Dean be the HBP? Well, I researched his bloodline on the Lexicon, and found some even neater info. Dean thinks that he is a muggleborn, but he is mistaken. His biological father was a wizard who left Dean and his family when he was very young, and was later killed by Voldemort when he refused to join the Death Eaters. So technically Dean is a half blood. And what would be a more suspenseful way of revealing the HBP to be a person who doesn't even know he is a half blood... Logan Longbottom "You can laugh ,but people used to believe there were no such things as the Blibbering Humdinger or the Crumple-Horned Snorkack!" -- Luna Lovegood From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 08:47:50 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:47:50 -0000 Subject: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four In-Reply-To: <000e01c52820$7b528fc0$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > Steve wrote: > >Given that Hogwarts was founded during a time of great oppression and > >persecution of wizards, the apprentice method had probably not only > >become impractical but dangerous. In addition, I'm sure the Founders > >saw that under the old method, they simply could not train all the > >available magical children. So, the idea of a central common school > >for all magical children was born. > > (Much snippage) >Ffred: > > > Consider how the material culture of the WW and the Muggle world in > the 10th century might have differed and the implications for this > for the newly founded Hogwarts. > > On one side of the new intake there are the wizard born kids. They > speak wizard-Latin as a lingua franca. They (perhaps) know each > other already. Their parents, being wizarding folk, have been able > to provide them with the robes, books, etc they needs. They are > literate and numerate. They understand what's going on. > > On the other side are the Muggle borns. They are mostly peasants. > Potentially, they are just as magical as the wizard borns. > ...edited... > bboyminn: Oooww... not quite. There is no reason to assume that all magic born children are wealthy aristocrats while all muggle born are peasants. I see no reason why each group couldn't represent a full cross section of the economic spectrum of the times. Muggle-borns could be the children of peasant, farmers, craftsmen, scribes, landlords, businessmen, landed gentry, or aristocrats. I will agree that the children of wizards are more likely to be educated and have better incomes, but I hardly think that is universal. In addition, knowing certain Latin based incantations is a far cry from speaking Latin. Although, I admit that any educated person would be likely to speak Latin, but that could be magic or muggle. You do have a very good point about education though, in this time, any books that did exist were painstakingly handwritten. The printing press wasn't invent until the 1400's. So, anyone with the ability to read, write, and do basic arithmetic would be highly educated. The only way for a muggle to achieve this would be for them to join a religious order at a very young age, or be the children of wealth and/or nobility. This extreme lack of available education, and the limited availability of educational material, combined with the prominence of Christian religion in education would not make it easy for magical people to get an education. Although, I do agree that many did. Also, effective transportation was not very prominent in this day and age. Travel was limited to available time, and how far a man could go on a horse, on the assumption that a man even had a horse. This also limited people's ability to communicate and by extension educate themselves. Before you make the Apparation/Floo_Powered argument, we really don't know how recent those inventions are. To Apparate, as I implied, you would either have to discover on you own, or have someone show you, but access to that /someone/ would have been limited. Let us also remember that even today, Apparation is considered dangerous for anyone who is not well trained. The Floo Network is just that, a sophisicated network of interconneting chimney flues that seems to require a substantial support network. That makes me think it is relatively new. Even broom travel was in it's more primitive and infant stages around 1,000A.D. Only two hundred years later in roughly 1200A.D. had broomsticks become full developed. Because of all this, the magical education of wizards would be very limited. It would be limited to what they could figure out on their own and what they could get from other people. But getting information from other people hinged on having contact with them, and that contact would not be an easy thing to come by. That's why I say that everything was done by Master/Apprentice relationships. The classic wizard's tale, starts with a Master Wizard traveling around and coming across various enchanted children, and enticing the parents, usually with money and promises, to allow the child to come away with the wizard. In a sense, parents selling their children, although usually motivated by wanting their children to have a better life. Under this system, I suspect that one Master Wizard would be unlikely to have more than 5 or possibly as many as 10 wizard children of various ages (including young adults) under his control. That doesn't open the door for may magical children to really get a first class magical education. Which is exactly why I think the four finest Master Wizards of the Age got together and created a central school where all magical children could be educated. This centralized education was a natural progression and is paralleled by centralized formal education in the muggle world. But as I pointed out before, having everyone in one place creates a degree of vulnerabity. It's much easier for individual Master Wizards to quietly maintain their own castles with apprentices, than for one large school with a capacity of 1,000 students to go unnoticed. And if the school were betrayed and became noticed by muggles, that could lead to a disaster that would come close to wiping out magic in that part of Europe, which is, of course, exactly what the /Witch Hunters/ wanted to do. Hence, Salazar Slytherin's very reasonable and justified distrust of muggle-borns. > > As Steve says, it's quite possible that others over the centuries > have pinned their own political theories on Slytherin. I can > criticise him for elitism, but, faced with the situation he was > faced with, how many of us today would end up with Helga and how > many with Salazar? > > I wonder > > Cheers > Ffred bboyminn: I wouldn't go so far as to say that Salazar was a peachy guy. I'm sure he had his flaws, but there are repeated references to him being well liked and close friends with the other founders. If he was a total jerk, I really can't see that friendship happening. Especially, his extremely close friendship with Gryffindor, unless we are to regard Gryffindor as something of a dolt, in which case, Salazar would probably not be his friend. There are a couple of troubling points regarding Salazar. First, the Chamber of Secrets; it does seem to be something of a shrine to himself. All the snake images everywhere, and the giant statue of himself in the most prominent location. Also, the Chamber seems very large. What could he have possibly have created it for? Well, one could speculate he intended to hold his pureblood-nazi rallies there. But given his distrust of muggle-born and the very real danger of muggles, one could speculate instead that it was a secret chamber the children could hide in if the castle was ever attacked. Which brings us to the Basilisk. Just as I cautioned against believing what people are now say about Salazar, I again caution against accepting /legend-base/ opinions of what the Basilisk was for. All we have heard comes for /other/ people, and all the /legend/ says is that the Basilisk it to rid the castle of 'those unworthy to study magic'. The /legend/ doesn't specifically mention muggle-born, that is assumed by people who are buying into Salazar's alleged Pureblood=Nazi beliefs. But old legends are not too reliable. I could just as easly speculate that the Basilisk was on hand to protect the school should there ever be a mass attack by muggles. It's possible that Salazar left the Basilisk behind to save the castle/school when the Muggle attack finally came, just as he had predicted. When that happened and his Basilisk saved everyone, he would be a hero, and would gain control of how the school was run. The path of /legend/ logic is that muggles would attack which would imply they had been betrayed by a muggle-born, the Basilisk would save the castle, kill all the attacking muggles, thereby proving that Slytherin was right, muggle-born's couldn't be trusted and were therefore /unworthy/ to study magic. That would be a sequence of events that would 'rid the castle of those unworthy to study magic'. Even if the Basilisk was there for some later generation when the Heir of Slytherin returned to Hogwarts, we still can't rely oto much on that legend. Basilisks are indiscriminate killing /machines/. In legend, not only do they have deadly eyes and poisonous fans, but their breath is also considered deadly (although, that part isn't mentioned in JKR's version) and it is frequently attributed to massive crop failures. The only way a Basilisk, with so many ways to kill, could be restrained is if a Parselmouth was controlling it. I believe that is exactly what was happening in CoS, Tom was telling the Basilisk to do very specific things. Left on it's own, the Basilisk, like most animals, would only kill in defense, for food, or by accident. It's not an animal that specifically seeks out muggles on it's own. Snake aren't that ambitious, they are opportunistic killers; they kill whatever happens to wander by. So, while I'm sure Salazar was no saint, we should be very careful about taking 100% to heart what other people, with their own obvious agenda, are saying he said, or what some 1,000 year old legend impies. As I read the book, I see sufficient indications, to make me believe that modern wizards have taken some small aspect of Salazar and blown it way up to suit their own ends. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 14 12:22:06 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:22:06 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Salazar=92s_Separation_&_the_Chamber_of_Secrets_(was_Re:The_Falling-Out_of_the_Fou?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126026 > > Valky wrote (huge snip): > I think Salazar was most likely a good person (his friends loved him > and mourned his leaving), but his love of ambition unbalanced his > path in life (he created the chamber of secrets and he lost himself > in murderous intent). > > > Kemper now: > > I don't see Salazar as an ambitious man. How many ambitious men in > the world want to become teachers? Valky: Maybe, but evidently the legacy of his house is a tradition of high regard to ambition, where did that come from if not, at least in part, from the founder of the House. Kemper: > He was a teacher who didn't > wanted to teach Muggleborns. What's wrong with that? Gordic didn't > want to teach cowards. Rowena didn't want to teach dumb-dumbs. Why > is no one having a fit about that discrimination? Valky: Possibly you overlooked my having mentioned that Rowena and Godric were equally self righteous as Slazar about who they (*WE*) should teach. Helga was apparently the voice of reason on that account and all the founders, it seemed, followed her lead. Unfortunately they couldn't keep it together. I am supposing it was because although they were able to concede the rightness of Ms Hufflepuff's argument, the way they felt originally was never truly dealt with. > Kemper: > what's wrong with wanting to teach purebloods? Is it because it's > xenophobic or maybe nepotistic? But then is wanting to teach only > the courageous wrong because of its narrow-minded favoritism towards > a single personality trait? Is wanting to teach only the smart kids > intellectual elitism? > Valky: I think they all agreed it was not entirely wrong to have different values, but they didn't hold the fort for long. Only a few years according to COS. "For a few years, the founders worked in harmony together...." And there seemed definitely to be a connection between the rift and the values that the founders had originally espoused. "....A rift began to grow between Slytherin and the others. Slytherin wished to be more selective about the students admitted to Hogwarts. He believed that magical learning should be kept within all-magic families. He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy. After a while, there was a serious argument on the subject between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the school." COS Chapter nine > Kemper: > I also don't see his murderous intent. Did Salazar set the Basilisk > on Muggleborns or anyone for that matter? Valky: But there is still the myth that Salazar intended the Basilisk to be released by his heir: "Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at the school. The heir alone would be able to unseal the Chamber of Secrets, unleash the horror within, and use it to purge the school of all who were unworthy to study magic." Professor Binns COS It may in future books be proved just a myth, but as it stands there is no proof of that yet. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Mar 14 13:39:54 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:39:54 -0000 Subject: Dung as Spy? (Was Re: Lily's physical description, and a bit more apparently :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126027 > mhbobbin: > I've always wondered if it was Dung as well for this reason. BUT-- why would DD have Dung (who is part of the old gang mentioned at end of Goblet of Fire) in the Order, if he was this particular spy. He was likely already in the Order when the Prophecy was given (it being only a bit more than a year before the end) and yet Aberforth threw him out.< Pippin: Dung is not in Moody's photograph of the original order. My take on it is that Dung was not a member of the Order at the time of the prophecy. Neither was he working for Voldemort. I think he was visiting the Hogs Head in disguise and happened to overhear part of the prophecy. Partway through, he was discovered and thrown out, not for eavsedropping per se, but because he was persona non grata and had been for four years. According to this scenario, Dumbledore did not immediately realize that he had been overheard, which explains why he didn't attempt to intercept the eavesdropper. Meanwhile, Mundungus, not a DE himself, peddled his information to one of his contacts who was a DE or had dealings with them. When Voldemort learned of the prophecy, naturally he wanted to get his hands on Dung himself, but Snape or one of Dumbledore's other spies warned Dumbledore, who then sent his own agents to save Dung from capture by the Dark Lord. Dumbledore offered Dung a second chance and that's how he became a member of the Order. Just a theory of course. What do you think? Pippin From cat_kind at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 13:41:50 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:41:50 -0000 Subject: It's Libatius (Was: News Flash! HBP covers released!) In-Reply-To: <20050310191437.75228.qmail@web14924.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126028 > angelicfront5: Just a thought, but has any one considered the > possibilty that Snape finally got the Defense Against > the Dark Arts job and that Libatius Borage could very > well be the new Potions Teacher? > > Just a thought, any takers? catkind: meeeee! I really want to see Snape teaching Harry DADA, purely because it would make for good reading. They'd really have to learn to get on better. And they could have major conflicts about the continuation or otherwise of Dumbledore's Army. And it would be maybe just a little bit dull to have yet another new Defence teacher. With a new Potions teacher Harry would be allowed into NEWT level and we could find out if he is actually any good at the subject. If Snape's still teaching Potions, it's going to take major corruption to get Harry into the NEWT class. While we're at it, Libatius could be the lion-man. catkind From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 14 14:42:10 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:42:10 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Salazar=92s_Separation_&_the_Chamber_of_Secrets_(was_Re:The_Falling-Out_of_the_Fou?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126029 > Kemper wrote: > > I don't see Salazar as an ambitious man. How many ambitious men in the world want to become teachers? Hannah now: Um... I know a few personally for starters. Teaching isn't an easy job and it's quite possible to be an ambitious teacher. Besides, Salazar Slytherin wasn't just 'a teacher.' He was a founder of one of the first organised schools in the country. There's a difference. As well as that, he was a powerful wizard who could have had any number of ambitions in other directions besides teaching and the world of the school. Kemper continued: > I also don't see his murderous intent. Did Salazar set the Basilisk on Muggleborns or anyone for that matter? > I think Salazar built the Chamber as a refuge. Maybe Salazar kept it from the others in case one of the students or Founders accidentally walked in to say hello only to be bitten or stared at by a Basilisk because he didn't close the Chamber all the way. I don't know. > I also speculate that when Salazar left, he didn't go running around > whispering into ears, "Hey there's this room in Hogwarts that I > built I call it the Chamber of Secrets." Hannah now: Yes, I agree that it's unlikely Slytherin himself named it the Chamber of Secrets. It was christened that by someone, maybe many years after he was dead, because of the mysteries surrounding its location (and its very existence) and the nature of the monster. There was obviously some knowledge about the chamber. Perhaps Salazar did build it for protection and not tell anyone else its location for the reasons given already in the thread. He must have said something, for there to be any knowledge of it at all. There was no point telling the others its location, as they wouldn't be able to open it, even once he'd left the school. If Slytherin really did want to kill all Muggleborns at the school, why didn't he release the Basilisk himself, or get his own son/daughter to do it? He must have had a child/ children, but there's no evidence that they or their children, who would be most influenced by Slytherin's beleifs, released the basilisk. As a Muggleborn killing mechanism, the basilisk is very inefficient. Both times the chamber was opened, only one child was killed and relatively few even attacked (luckily). All it achieved (had it not been thwarted) was the closure of the school altogether. And no doubt sooner or later another school would have been started up, somewhere without a secret chamber and resident monster, where Muggleborns could continue to be taught without fear. For someone so sneaky and cunning and clever, it was a remarkably poor plan. However, the basilisk as a last ditch defence mechanism - which could be controlled only by Slytherin, so not turned and used against the school by a Muggle - and the Chamber as a very secret hiding place, do make sense as a plan. I doubt Slytherin was nice, in the same way that Snape isn't nice. But he may not have been evil. Hannah From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 14 16:50:13 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:50:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups]"other ways of destroying a man . . ." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050314165013.8013.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126030 Angie wrote: It could also be a reference to the fact that some people are willing to die to save someone else. So, for them it would be worse to live if, by dying, they could save someone they love. (Oh, no, the "L" word again.) After all, wasn't that the case with Lily? Voldemort either forgot or didn't place much stock in sacrificial love and look where it led him. [snip]To Dumbledore, living without being able to experience love is worse than dying. [snip]IMO, this statement is more than DD merely giving his opinion of death. I believe it is related to something that will ultimately lead to VM's downfall. So far, we know VM will go to any means to avoid death and that he cannot reside in a body where love lives. I don't know what other weaknesses he has. But, I believe that since he is now in human form again, he can now be killed. I think Harry's blood has contributed to that and that was why DD was pleased to find out VM could touch Harry in GOF. But perhaps I digress . . . . me: Maybe I should have snipped more, but I think you are on to something. I tend to forget the whole "love saves us all" stuff because that sappy stereotypical "love is the answer" business tends to bother me in R.L. and other fiction, but JKR has dealt well with it here and I must not forget--as she always reminds us--this is a series for children. That said, I hope she deals with it more imaginatively than LV not being able to reside in a body with love in it. I think she will. I think that escapade in the MoM was a clue to what will eventually be the downfall of LV, as you yourself inferred, but only a clue. Surely the downfall will be more complicated or difficult than that. If it is too easy I will be very disappointed. But back to Love--Love is something core to DD (as we have seen in conversation with Harry as well as through his relationships) and so is probably a conversation he and Tom have had in the past when DD was still in a position of mentor to Tom. Think Anakin and OB1 from Star Wars--except I got the impression from Tom's diary that DD didn't exactly trust Tom, but maybe he used to. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 17:34:18 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:34:18 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Salazar=92s_Separation_&_the_Chamber_of_Secrets_(was_Re:The_Falling-Out_of_the_Fou?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126031 > Kemper now: So, again, what's wrong with wanting to teach purebloods? Is it because it's xenophobic or maybe nepotistic? But then is wanting to teach only the courageous wrong because of its narrow-minded favoritism towards a single personality trait? Is wanting to teach only the smart kids intellectual elitism? Alla: Valky said most of my thoughts, but I want to specifically comment on this one - I see Salazar prejudice as the worst one, because theoretically person can become smarter, more courageous, if he/she works to improve oneself. Yes, it is hard, but it is possible at least in theory and I would argue not only in theory. In other words , at least theoretically, one can do something to get accepted to Rowena or Godric house. There is absolutely NOTHING one can do to become pureblood, you are either born with it or not, therefore I see the discrimination against something as you are born with as the worst kind of discrimination. Just my opinion, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 17:55:49 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:55:49 -0000 Subject: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126032 Valky: But JKR has pointed this out to be relatively laughable a situation in Harrys History of Magic essay on Witch burning. Lindsay: I am going to have to disagree with you when it comes to this certain issue, Valky. While JKR does say, through an essay, that the situation was laughable, that does not explain two things: How are children, or any witch or wizard of the time, who have not been educated, able to know the Charm to keep them from burning at the stake? I do think that a fully educated witch or wizard could easily save themselves from a situation of being attacked by Muggles, but the people of the time of the Founders did not have a centralized education before they created Hogwarts. There was no way for anyone to know the magic they would need to freeze the fires, or the Bubble-head charms, or Apparation or any other number of spells. Which is why, I imagine, many of the magical people of the time WERE killed by Muggles, and why it would be justified for Slytherin to have something against them. Alla: I agree with Valky, because for now that is the only canon we have and I think it is reasonable to assume based on canon that Salasar mistrust of muggles was even if justifiable, not very well based on facts, let's put it this way. But suppose for the sake of the argument that I agree and that essay was a lie and many witches were burned indeed. Don't you think that muggleborns children will be the FIRST to die, because Salazar refused to accept them to school and educate them? I mean thanks G-d for Helga and others, because if Salasar was dictating the rules, he would leave many, many muggleborn kids defenseless against the persecution. Lindsay: Second, would a children's history book, being taught in precarious times such as these, tell the hard truth that witches and wizards who did not know any better were tortured and killed? What would this do, except possibly create more anti-Muggle sentiment? I doubt that Dumbledore would allow such a circuluum, even if it were the truth. I believe Harry's History of Magic book painted the issue with a flowery tale, and did not tell the entire truth of the matter. The Wizarding World as a whole seems to be in denial, IMHO. Alla: I am also wondering how do you know that that book was not telling entire truth? I am thinking that even before Hogwarts was founded witches and wizards existed for centuries at least, so I imagine they knew a lot of stuff already. It is just founders made the magical education widely available, no? It is not like magic did not exist before them, so people had to pass magical knowledge to each other somehow. I think WIzarding World is definitely in denial about many things, but not about this one and there is canon proof for that, which so far had not been proven as false, IMO only of course. JMO, Alla. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 19:28:00 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:28:00 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]"other ways of destroying a man . . ." In-Reply-To: <20050314165013.8013.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126033 > Angie wrote: > ---theotokos replied Maybe I should have snipped more, but I think you are on to something. I tend to forget the whole "love saves us all" stuff because that sappy stereotypical "love is the answer" business tends to bother me in R.L. and other fiction, but JKR has dealt well with it here and I must not forget--as she always reminds us--this is a series for children. That said, I hope she deals with it more imaginatively than LV not being able to reside in a body with love in it. I think she will. I think that escapade in the MoM was a clue to what will eventually be the downfall of LV, as you yourself inferred, but only a clue. Surely the downfall will be more complicated or difficult than that. If it is too easy I will be very disappointed. Angie again: I agree it has to be something more complicated. I have this fantasy that somehow Harry is able to turn the tables and use Voldemort's own hatred/rage (lack of love) against him. Remember in OOP when LeStrange told Harry that he had to mean it when using an Unforgiveable Curse and that righteous indignation wouldn't last long (or something like that; I'm at work so I don't have my "reference books")? As tormented as Harry is, I don't think that Harry he enough inner rage to do it. He couldn't kill Sirius when he had the chance and thought he should, and he could barely inflict the Crucatious curse on LeStrange after she killed Sirius. Maybe he'll discover that the connection with VM goes both ways, especially now the old Voldy has some of Harry's blood in him. But however it goes down, I'm sure JKR will work out something satisfactory for (most of) us. From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 16:56:55 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:56:55 -0000 Subject: Snape as HBP In-Reply-To: <20050313110232.95388.qmail@web86710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126034 > > Fitzov wrote: > > The biggest issue I have with the identity of the Half Blood Prince, relates to the use of the title "Prince". JKR has give no hints whatsoever that there is any equivalent of Wizard Monarchy, and her books actually strike me as out-and-out republican. Karen's Reply: Yea, I agree. They don't have a monarchy sort of government there at the Ministry of Magic, it seems like a copy of Muggle government to me. But they must have at some point been linked to the English monarchy, as it is set in England. So it is possible there is an old tie to someone being kin to royal folks...but since there has not been much mention of it...maybe its gonna be a surprise! (hehe) Fitzov wrote: > > Has anyone else puzzled over the use of the word 'Prince' as opposed to the much more discussed term 'Half-Blood'? Karen's Reply: Half-Blood Heir....Half-Blood Prince..well I'd say if your naming a book Half-Blood Prince does sound way better. But I am also thinking that prince might not mean prince...it might mean like you said Heir. Or..any number of other things we think of with word association with 'prince'. Generally we think of a prince as a hero, or someone pure and good. Most little girls dream of a handsome prince saving them from evil...read Snow White and Cinderella for details on this Prince Theory (laughs) I don't really know if..using that thoery we can qualify Snape as a handsome prince...hum...at least not from the HP book description, of course from the FanFic world well.....anyway. It could also be something that isn't even a person, I think the potion theory is intresting, but I have reservations about it..since most of the titles so far have been about something real. First book: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. Stone was actual stone, not a Potion or Person, or a book on how to make really good brownies...hum. Second Book:Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. Chamber was real chamber with real monster, not a room filled with freshly baked cookies........hum... Third Book: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. Prisoner was real person, who was really in jail...for crimes he didn't commit. Even in the wizarding world the justice system is screwy. I say, what good is having a truth potion if you don't use it..sheash... Fourth Book: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Goblet was real Goblet...not a new brew down at the local wizarding pub that makes your hair curl. Fifth Book: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. And again, order of the Phoenix was a real order, not something on the menue at a Fast Food restaurant. So...from that I'm thinking odviously unless JK is going to break a trend here then the Half Blood Prince must be a real person, since every other title indicated something real in the book and not a play on words to mean something else. But, who knows really, it could in fact be a breaking of the norm....but my question is why at book 6? Meh..I guess we will find out in a few months...twiddles thumbs and pulls out hair waiting for book. KarentheUnicorn From kgpopp at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 17:03:14 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:03:14 -0000 Subject: "other ways of destroying a man . . ." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126035 > bboyminn: > Let me start at the end, regarding not killing Voldemort but killing > the idea of Voldemort; I like this and it is so very true. Killing > Voldemort, or someone like him, has a very high potential to make > that person a martyr and a 'larger-then-life' legend. In doing > that, you actually give MORE power to the person and the cause. > > So, in summary, on this point, I very much agree that the wizard > world must defeat Voldemort's cause. Kristen: 1st let me say that per usual I found your post to be interesting and got me thinking. 2nd, I agree Voldemort's cause must be defeated. But I am not sure I agree that Voldemort's "death" would make him a martyr. Voldemort claims that he is the most powerful wizard of all time. If he is defeated/killed/stripped of power then his claim of being the most powerful wizard would "again" be shown to be false. I say again because if you think of what happened after his 1st encounter with Harry when he was turned to vapor. At that time the DEs at first did not believe that VD was gone, but fairly soon after most tried to distance themselves from his cause believing him to have been destroyed. So I think if he is really defeated then he would lose credibility with almost all of his death eaters. Now there might be a few who think he could again come back but even if there were a few like that I think even they would most likely fear whomever defeated Voldemort. > Now to the duel between Dumbledore and Voldemort. > I want to add another point to the mix. Dumbledore can't actually > kill Voldemort. When Voldemort got his body back, he referred to it > as his old body and his old strength, which I take to mean that he > is right back where he was the day before he was vaporized. He has > a degree of protection against death. > > > The gist is that if Dumbledore tries to AK Voldemort, it's likely > he will either fail, or Voldemort will again be reduced to vapor. > However, in being reduced to vapor again, Voldemort has a certain > advantage. For one thing he has Death Eaters readily available to > help restore him using a tried and proven restoration process. Kristen: I agree. In fact I think if this were to become a cycle where he is AK'd into vapor and then brought back then I think Voldemorts followers and the WW in general would believe that he was invincible and his abilty to instill fear would be greater. > I also believe that Dumbledore is attempting to mentally disarm or > undermine Voldemort by calling him Tom. In a sense, implying to > Voldemort that he can try to make himself out as a god, but > Dumbledore knows him for the insecure boy that he is. Kristen: Here I definitely agree. Dumbledore is being really clever here. Most of the WW will not speak his name and even the DEs wouldn't call VD by the name he gave himself. Instead they refer to him as the Dark Lord which is more of a title like "Mr. President" than a name. But here Dumbledore calls him by his true fist name. This not only shows that Dumbledore is not scared of him, but reminds Voldemort that he cannot hide from his own past. That he is not the pureblood he claims or tries to be. I would think the effect of this is just as you said. > > As to what some of these 'other ways of destroying a man' might be. > A few things occur to me. First, and most obvious, is the Dementor's > Kiss. That certainly destroys a man without killing him. > > Another might be the loss of magical powers. Can you imagine, all > magical power force from Voldemort's body by Harry /special power/? > Poor Voldemort, force to live out his days as the very thing he > despises; a muggle. Kristen: I think this would be a great punishment. I love this idea much more the dementor's kiss. Not only does it fullfill my desire to see VD suffer, it would destroy his power over the DEs. > And speaking of fundamental truths that Voldemort doesn't > understand, I think Voldemort's greatest curse could end up being > the very thing he is most desperately seeking; immortality. What > would happen if Voldemort was able to create a body and mind that > could never die, but the experiment went horribly wrong, and while > he couldn't die, he would indeed age normally. Many decades down > the road, and into centuries beyond that, a frail helpless skeletal > Voldemort lives on long forgotten by everyone. Dooomed to that very > eternal life he so desperately sought. How's that for justice? Kristen: This I also love. Especially in combination with becoming a muggle or would it be a squib. ??? From magalud at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 18:58:51 2005 From: magalud at yahoo.com (ludmila souza) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:58:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Snape as HBP In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050313185851.59293.qmail@web52109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126037 Kate Williams wrote: > JKR has give no hints whatsoever that there is any equivalent of Wizard > Monarchy, and her books actually strike me as out-and-out republican. There > are no Kings and Queens, and therefore no Princes and Princesses. Unless > Neville's toad is about to turn into a Prince (viz numerous European fairy > tales), I can see no possible connections to monarchy anywhere in the books. > Has anyone else puzzled over the use of the word 'Prince' as opposed to the > much more discussed term 'Half-Blood'? Magalud: I have been more curious about the "prince" title than half-blood since the book's title came out. The reason is that it is so completely unexpected in the series. It would be such a big revolution in the Potterverse to suddenly have monarchy and royal ways that I believe it has to be some sort of metaphor. No offence to anyne, but I don't share wild theories about characters suddenly being discovered as royalty - not even Harry, who has always been portrayed as a common wizard boy and a student struggling in his grades. Snape, however, has been shown as the opposite as having been born with a silver spoon in his mouth. He strikes me as someone whose family, despite being pureblood, was fairly poor or just had trouble to make ends meet. Not at all one who secretly had a royal background. SnapeFest 2005! EST? ROLANDO! Fale comigo. Orgulhosa keeper da voz sexy de Severus Snape e do seu sorrisinho sarc?stico - http://hpkeepers.50free.net/index.html My fanfic: http://www.geocities.com/snapesecrets __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginny343 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 20:43:29 2005 From: ginny343 at yahoo.com (ginny343) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:43:29 -0000 Subject: A trip beyond the veil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126038 Alla wrote: > Since I am fond of speculation that Harry will somehow go behind > the Veil to try and find Sirius there, Okay, I haven't noticed this idea has been explored . . . of course there are so many posts! :) I also would like to see Harry go behind the veil and try to find Sirius. I have wondered for a while if maybe HRH would make a potion that would allow Harry to walk through the veil for a time and be able to return. (Although, I'm hoping that potion is not called the Half-Blood Prince. I'd like the HBP to be a person.) This could bring in lots of possibilities. He might meet his parents there, who may give him some information that he needs . . . of course this would also make it hard for him - finally meeting his parents and not being able to stay with them. Also, he might meet Gryffindor, who could give him some information about Syltherin. Since Voldy is the heir of Syltherin, such information could be useful. I feel right now Harry is very unprepared to do any real battle against Voldemort. Just some ideas. Ginny343, who has been reading over her husband's shoulder too long and has decided to join the group herself. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Mar 14 20:46:54 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:46:54 -0000 Subject: A good narrative strategy (was Re: All the World's Problems; ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126039 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: Lupinlore: > The WW as she describes it has a LOT of glaring faults, but it is also > simpler, more personal, and filled with issues that, for all the > greyness and murkiness we sometimes see in the books, are still quite > a bit neater than those faced by the Muggle world. Evil and Good are > relatively clear in the WW world compared to ours, and it is possible > still to have romance and heroism in a pure sense. > > I suspect that JKR is often very disappointed and disapproving of the > things she sees in the real world. I in no way mean to mock her or > belittle her for that, because a lot of people are less than enchanted > with modern life. But she has said firmly she does not believe in > magic, and her depictions of Little Whinging hint that she has a less > than favorable view of the kind of Middle Class ethos that dominates > so much of the culture, society, and politics of the Anglo-American > world. We know that much of her own life, including her first > marriage and, if the media are to be believed, her relationship with > her father, has been filled with difficult and long-lasting problems. > > I suspect that the WW is very attractive to her because, for all its > inadequacies, it is still a smaller, simpler world of romance and > adventure and heros and magic where Good can face Evil in a literal > way, and where a brave individual can make a fundamental difference > through heroic action and determination to follow what is right. To > mix that with the "real" world, that is the stuffy, complicated, > murky, Muggle world where romance and heros sometimes seem like things > for childrens books; where individual initiative often seems to mean > nothing against the iron wheels of economics and the quagmires of > political interest; where even in the pursuit of good and right > collective action, organization, and professionalism are often more > important than bravery and heroism; where the society of Little > Whinging is often the dominant factor; where Good and Evil are often > difficult to define and once defined, to do anything with; might well > seem to her to be a betrayal. Geoff: A rather belated reply to this post but I wanted to add twopennyworth of my own. I think that my view would parallel that of JKR which Lupinlore puts forward as a hypothesis. I am often disappointed with the modern world and the way in which thoughtfulness, beauty and pleasure are trampled by the leviathan of global commerce. I rarely read or watch so-called "real life" dramas when all I have to do is flip on the 9 o'clock news. I am perhaps an idealist in that I like to have good and evil clearly delineated for me; the good wear white hats and have a twinkle in their eye while the bad wear black and hiss evilly. OK, so it's escapism but I have over the years grown to love many books like this, both for adults and children - although I think that distinction is an arbitrary one. Those of you who read my posts will know that I am an unashamed fan of the Lord of the Rings. I first met it a year or so after publication and it took me away from the rather gloomy world view of the 1950s. I was reminding a youth group member at church the other day, that when I was his age, I seriously believed that I might not make it to be 21, so brittle was the peace between the West and Russia. Other books since then which have given me great pleasure are the Narnia series and two of Alan Garner's books by which involve children and magic ("The Weirdstone of Brisingamen"and "The Moon of Gomrath") - short in comparison but strangely similar to the worlds of Harry Potter and of Tolkien. In gloomy circumstances, one looks for reading material which will lift you out of the mundane into the heroic, where, in your mind's eye, you can stand alongside Frodo as he faces Shelob or join Harry as he dodges the Basilisk. There is a real place for the simple in today's world; a place where you do not have to analyse the villains; where your Dursleys are almost figures of fun. I suspect that, in reality, I would not want to spend a fortnight with Aragorn trekking from Bree to Rivendell across the Midgewater Marshes or put up with a Potions lesson when Snape was in a testy mood but it is better for a few hours at least than contemplating global warming or the problems of the Northern Ireland peace process or why my tax bill has jumped so much. Let's face it, I just haven't got as far as my second childhood because I'm not out of the first one yet. :-) From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 20:50:24 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:50:24 -0000 Subject: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126040 Lindsay wrote: > The problem I have, personally, about all the stories we have heard > about the Founders - save the Sorting Hat, who is the only primary > source we can really have - is that these stories are about people > that lived a thousand years ago, spread by word of mouth. > > We only have the Sorting Hat to tell us any truth of the matter. I > think we can reasonably assume the Salazar Slytherin *built* the > Chamber of Secrets - after all, it is no small feat to have a large > underground chamber to be built after the fact, and have its > construction and origins secret. a_svirn: Yes, I agree > > But do we even know if Salazar left the basilisk? It is called, after > all, the Chamber of Secrets - not the Chamber of Death or etc. The > term "secrets" indicates *potentially* harmful information only, but > there is nothing malicious about it at all, and I would think that if > you built a chamber to house a giant, murderous snake, you would call > it something a bit different than "Chamber of Secrets." That is, of > course, my opinion. a_svirn: I think it's called "chamber of secretS", plural for a reason. I do believe that it was Salazar who'd left Basilisk ? it makes perfect sense since he was a Parselmouth after all, and his heir was supposed to be a Parselmouth too. Which means that they were the only ones who could control the monster. I don't think, however, that Basilisk was the main reason to build the chamber. Rather, I think that he was placed there to GUARD something. Monsters are often employed in that way. And I wouldn't be surprised if Harry would have to descend to the chamber again to learn the secret he (and LV) overlooked first time. a_svirn From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 22:41:19 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:41:19 -0000 Subject: The theory of Harry Potter symbolising the Path of Alchemical Liberation. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126041 > Catkind wrote: Sorry if I sound a bit confrontational here, Hans. > I'm genuinely interested in your posts because I think there's > things about the HP characters in there that would make for > interesting discussion if only I could figure out what you're > actually saying. I woulden't be replying otherwise. KarentheUnicorn's reply: (I ahh..am actually putting Karentheunicorn since I have noticed recently there are many Karen's in here!) I would like to um...join the 'I don't get it' group please...'cause I don't get it either. I feel a bit like catkind. I personally think any of us can take the Harry Potter stories and compare them to any other story/religion/theory/myth. Most stories consist of a good and evil character, or at least most of the good stories do. We generally get the ideas of good and evil from either our religious background or how we see the world. So making the comparison is fairly easy. Heck if I wanted to be silly...and of course I can...I can compare the story to the 3 little pigs if I want. 3...the three main Characters Hermione, Ron, and Harry. Who is in the straw house, who is in the stick house..who is in the brick house....hey..Who is the big bad wolf?? For that matter...where did that pig buy his bricks anyway? (laughs) Ok let's get back on topic. For me personally I really don't like comparing the Harry Potter books to a religion or a belief system...of course some have taken up the banner and turned the potter universe into their own religion...while I really have no problem with that per say as I'm a big fan too and can be a little excited and like stuff to an extreme sometime, I just don't see how the comparison really...meh..tells me anything. Ok, if JK Rowling came out and said..I read such and such book, or this is a book or story or religion I researched when writing about these characters, I'd say..hey that might be interesting to read since she made up these characters around this (whatever). I personally would rather debate the reason why they celebrate Christmas in the Potter universe? They don't show images of Santa Claus at the Christmas feast..neither do they show images of baby Jesus...so..what is their equivalent of having Christmas..and Easter for that matter....but considering this is a kids book...most kids consider Christmas a very important holiday..regardless of what the real meaning of it is. So...using that as an example I would say...that maybe sometimes we are overcomparing things and overanalyzing things...maybe sometimes an apple is just an apple...not an orange or a toothbrush. Maybe we don't have to compare these HP Characters to other characters or other stories or religions..maybe we should just take them for what they are....that is until the author tells us different. KarentheUnicorn P.S. Not fully Liberated yet..but is working on it, does anyone have a hammer so I can burst out of this cage of unenlightened sarcastic American humor I'm stuck in? From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 13 23:21:23 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:21:23 -0000 Subject: "other ways of destroying a man . . ." In-Reply-To: <20050313231117.41579.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126042 Theotokos wrote: > His (DD's) comment, "We *both* know. . ." sounds personal to me. > It sounds like LV/Tom did something very horrible that did or > didn't go the way it was meant to go--either way both DD and LV > know about it and both recognized it as being horrible. What springs immediately to my mind is what he did to Hagrid. He framed him for opening the Chamer of Secrets. Had DD not intervened (taking him on as groundsman, covering up the reason for his expulsion), what would have become of him? He was 13/14 years old, his mother had abandoned him and his father was dead. He would no longer become a wizard and indeed magic was now forbidden to him plus the entire WW would have thought he was the heir of SS. He certainly would have been destroyed. Just a thought. Karen From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Mon Mar 14 06:41:42 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:41:42 -0000 Subject: History and Myth Behind HP In-Reply-To: <20050313104329.52937.qmail@web86705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126043 > Fitzov de Sullens: > The Chapter Title of "Spinner's End" also has me intrigued. It > actually sounds more like a house name than a street name to me. Perhaps "Spinners End" is DD's house/estate? I'm not sure why, but it just *sounds* like a Dumbledore-ish sort of place. Now, what effect would this have on the plot of HBP? John. From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Mon Mar 14 06:54:51 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:54:51 -0000 Subject: "Prince"? (was Re: Snape as HBP) In-Reply-To: <20050313110232.95388.qmail@web86710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126044 > Fitzov: > The biggest issue I have with the identity of the Half Blood > Prince relates to the use of the title "Prince". JKR has give > no hints whatsoever that there is any equivalent of Wizard > Monarchy, > > Many people have speculated that the word 'Prince' is synonymous > with 'Heir', but why use the word 'Prince' then? John: The word "prince" can also refer to the "chief" or "greatest" of something. Satan, for instance, is sometimes called "the prince of darkness." The way I see it, the term "Half-Blood Prince" pertains to some sort of champion of half-bloods/the half-blood cause. Didn't Voldy refer to DD as a "champion of mudbloods and commoners" (or words to that effect)? Is it just me, or is there some sort of correlation between these descriptions? John. From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Mon Mar 14 07:16:29 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:16:29 -0000 Subject: Who is the HBP & link between books 2 & 6? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126045 "Karen Barker" wrote: > > JKR has said that there is a very strong link between book 2 > and book 6 and I was reading through some of her interviews and > someone asked her if we would see Aragog again and she said "Yes". > I can only assume that this is the link, so what could his > involvement be? Well, spiders are well known for spinning! Perhaps he and his ghastly family are connected to Spinners End. Deborah From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Mon Mar 14 09:23:22 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Kate Williams) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:23:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: History and Myth Behind HP In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050314092322.74141.qmail@web86703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126046 Fitzov: > The Chapter Title of "Spinner's End" sounds more like a house name > than a street name. I wonder if this is the name of Sirius' own > house: the one that he bought at the age of 17 with his Uncle > Alphard's gold (OOtP, p104 (UK Ed.))? Geoff: > We had a long series of contributions last year about Spinners End > and associated ideas. Fitzov: Noted and thanks. But I hope this isn't end of subject? What about the idea that Sirius has another home that Harry inherits? Would this free Harry from the Dursleys? Did Sirius have to live close by James in order to visit for Sunday lunch? Is there a geographical limit to apparating and floo powder? (Personally I suspect the answer to the last questions is no. Sirius and James just liked the views around the Severn Estuary, whether from the Welsh or English sides). Fitz From jeterluver2 at aol.com Mon Mar 14 16:12:07 2005 From: jeterluver2 at aol.com (Marissa) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:12:07 -0000 Subject: Logan's HBP Theory - Dean Thomas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126047 Logan wrote: > He was originally going to be a member of the > Trio, and originally had bigger roles in book 1 and > book 2. But this all was cut. So could Dean be the > HBP? Well, I researched his bloodline on the Lexicon, > and found some even neater info. Dean thinks that he > is a muggleborn, but he is mistaken. His biological > father was a wizard who left Dean and his family when > he was very young, and was later killed by Voldemort > when he refused to join the Death Eaters. So technically > Dean is a half blood. And what would be a more suspenseful > way of revealing the HBP to be a person who doesn't > even know he is a half blood... Marissa: It sounds like a good idea and it would be cool if he was the Half- Blood Prince. The only problem is that on her website Jo says she "sacrificed Dean's voyage of discovery for Neville's" which to me means she cut it out completely and is only revealing the information because it won't be in the books. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=2 Dean Marissa From mwburge1 at aol.com Mon Mar 14 16:58:55 2005 From: mwburge1 at aol.com (mryburge) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:58:55 -0000 Subject: The Prohecy / Dumbledore, Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126048 > mhbobbin writes: > DD's story is that he was willing to meet Sybil out of respect > for her grandmother Cassandra Trelawney, who was a famous seer. > He indicates he had low expectations for the mtg. I'm willing to > accept that there was no more to his rationale for meeting her > than he has told us (although he so often holds something back) > . DD's willingness to meet with this seer immediately gives > the seer some credibility, whether or not deserved. The surprise > prophecy would be of interest to Voldemort simply because it was > made to DD. That it was made in a trance probably enhanced its > credibility. > > I'm not so sure that Trelawney is a fraud. She seems to be more > right than not in what she sees, although not in divining the > meaning. I am not sure that the prophecy meant that much to Dumbledore until Voldemort acted in such as way so as to make the prophecy "true" as to Harry. (E.g., although D. warned James and Lily into hiding, it doesn't seem like the prophecy was the reason - because he didn't warn the Longbottoms either, when the prophecy could just as easily, AT THE TIME, have been about Neville.) Although once it came to pass, he became a "believer." Contrast Dumbledore with Hermione, however. She adamantly refuses to consider Trelawney as anything other than a fraud. And she may be right - consider that the prophecy was nothing more than a guess/prediction until it was acted upon. It was only LV's voluntary act that made the prophecy "true" as to Harry, and "untrue" as to Neville. I think level-headed, Muggle-born Hermione knows that no prophecy is written in stone, and that choice, action, free will, etc. all work to affect outcome. She, who loves "magic" more than anyone in the series, refuses to acknowledge divination as magical at all, and remains the one who refuses to be blinded/impressed/overwhelmed by the prophecy. In other words, she seems to be the only one at this point who believes that the outcome can be changed. And if the outcome of the prophecy can be changed, then what is its real value? Hence, perhaps, Hermione's disdain? MaryB From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 20:00:29 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:00:29 -0000 Subject: "other ways of destroying a man . . ." / The Gleam In-Reply-To: <20050313231117.41579.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126049 *just jumping in* Amiable Dorsai wrote: > A true victory for the forces of light would be to kill not just > Voldemort, but the *idea* of Voldemort. Didn't Harry try to do that a bit unknowingly to the DEs, when he was in the DoMysteries (OoTP) holding the prophecy and talking to LMalfoy, and he told them that Voldemort was a half-blood as well? Yeah, and... I never understood why DD had a 'triumphant' look on his face when HP told him that he was touched by LV in GoFbook. Chys *waves hi* From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 22:00:35 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:00:35 -0000 Subject: Wizard Persecution (was: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126050 >>Valky: >But JKR has pointed this out to be relatively laughable a situation in Harrys History of Magic essay on Witch burning.< >>Lindsay: >How are children, or any witch or wizard of the time, who have not been educated, able to know the Charm to keep them from burning at the stake?< >>Alla: >I agree with Valky, because for now that is the only canon we have...< Betsy: Except that it's not. Actually, canon points overwhelmingly to Wizard persecution being a very real threat. "They built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." (CoS scholastic paperback ed. p. 150) "Muggle persecution of wizards at this time was reaching a pitch hitherto unknown [...] It is not the aim of this work to discuss the dark days that preceded the wizards' retreat into hiding." (FB&WtFT scholastic ed. p. xv) "The right to carry a wand at all times was established by the International Confederation of Wizards in 1692, when Muggle persecution was at its height and the wizards were planning their retreat into hiding." (QTtA scholastic ed. footnote 1. p. 28) The first quote is from Professor Binns, the second from Newt Scamander and the third from Kennilworthy Whisp. All three gentlemen are presented by JKR as scholars; two of them are historians outright. To dismiss their wording and the implications of their statements would be, IMO, a mistake. Of course we also know that wizards and witches are hard to kill, and I'm sure it wasn't a complete bloodbath, but to dismiss their persecution as a mere annoyance is to overlook history. And yes, Harry's third year textbook suggests that is *was* a mere annoyance, but history is often watered down for children, especially if it's politically dangerous history. And in the current climate of the WW, Muggle/Wizard relations are a political time bomb. It would be very unwise to instill either an unhealthy fear or an unhealthy hatred of Muggles into wizarding children. Better to whitewash the history for now. Since we have one source in canon being contradicted by three other sources in canon, I think it's safe to say Harry's textbook is not telling the full tale. Betsy From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 14 22:10:01 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:10:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the Hufflepuff Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126051 There have been many, many, MANY threads over the years about Dumbledore's possible house affiliation. This IS NOT another one. Rather, I would point out that in comparing DD to the founders as they have been presented, I find it most interesting that he seems most similar to the founder of the least respected of the houses - that is, Helga Hufflepuff. Hufflepuff, at least as presented in the later series, was the one who wanted to "take them all and teach them all the same." This seems to describe DD's policies perfectly, as they were explained in PS/SS. As an educator, he seems to be philosophically much closer to Helga than to Godric or Rowena or Salazar. I find this rather refreshing. Helga seems to have been by far the sanest and most level-headed of all the founders, and assuredly the most pragmatic. It is interesting and encouraging that it is she who in the end managed to have the most influence on Hogwarts' overall philosophy (i.e. that Hogwarts, as an overall institution, is a place for all wizards, not just the smart or brave or ambitious or pureblooded). I wouldn't be surprised if, in fact, it was Helga who dominated the other founders through persistance, pragmatism, and reasoned arguments, rather than Slytherin through cunning, Ravenclaw through brilliance, or Godric through bravery. Of course, DD represents in many ways a meld of the founders. He is brave like Godric, intelligent like Rowena, sly like Slytherin, and pragmatic like Helga. Perhaps JKR intended for this to be so. On the other hand, as has been pointed out time and again, all that may mean is that DD is a "real" person, whereas the founders, with the partial exception of Helga Hufflepuff, are presented as archetypes. All of the HP characters embody traits of multiple houses, so DD's eclectic nature may well not "mean" anything from JKR's POV at all. In any case, to get back to the point of the post, I suspect that if DD were to use a time-turner to go back a thousand years, he would be far more comfortable discussing the practical problems of educating young wizards with Helga than he would be in conversation with any of the other founders, although he could hold his own with all of them. Lupinlore From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 22:25:08 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:25:08 -0000 Subject: Wizard Persecution (was: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126052 Valky: But JKR has pointed this out to be relatively laughable a situation in Harrys History of Magic essay on Witch burning.< Lindsay: How are children, or any witch or wizard of the time, who have not been educated, able to know the Charm to keep them from burning at the stake?< Alla: I agree with Valky, because for now that is the only canon we have...< Betsy: Except that it's not. Actually, canon points overwhelmingly to Wizard persecution being a very real threat. The first quote is from Professor Binns, the second from Newt Scamander and the third from Kennilworthy Whisp. All three gentlemen are presented by JKR as scholars; two of them are historians outright. To dismiss their wording and the implications of their statements would be, IMO, a mistake. Of course we also know that wizards and witches are hard to kill, and I'm sure it wasn't a complete bloodbath, but to dismiss their persecution as a mere annoyance is to overlook history. And yes, Harry's third year textbook suggests that is *was* a mere annoyance, but history is often watered down for children, especially if it's politically dangerous history. And in the current climate of the WW, Muggle/Wizard relations are a political time bomb. It would be very unwise to instill either an unhealthy fear or an unhealthy hatred of Muggles into wizarding children. Better to whitewash the history for now. Since we have one source in canon being contradicted by three other sources in canon, I think it's safe to say Harry's textbook is not telling the full tale. Alla: Good quotes, Betsy, but I don't see how these three quotes contradict the other one. To me the question is whether wizards and witches were burned and I don't see the proof of it so far. Maybe they were prosecuted by different methods other than burning, I don't know. I just don't see the contradiction and I don't see the proof that this book whitewashes the history. It just talks about real witches being able to save themselves from fire. None of your quotes says that they could not do that. :) In fact, they just say that persecution occurred. I understand where you are coming from, I just don't see the reason to dismiss the other one that fast. In fact, maybe the fact that persecution IS mentioned in well - known scholarly books and at children history lessons points out to whitewashing of the history in the other direction. Am I being clear? Professor Binns also teaches kids, so why is it more reasonable to assume that he is not telling tales and the other book does? JMO, Alla. From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 14 22:27:42 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:27:42 -0000 Subject: History at Hogwarts (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126053 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > > The first quote is from Professor Binns, the second from Newt > Scamander and the third from Kennilworthy Whisp. All three > gentlemen are presented by JKR as scholars; two of them are > historians outright. To dismiss their wording and the implications > of their statements would be, IMO, a mistake. > > Of course we also know that wizards and witches are hard to kill, > and I'm sure it wasn't a complete bloodbath, but to dismiss their > persecution as a mere annoyance is to overlook history. And yes, > Harry's third year textbook suggests that is *was* a mere annoyance, > but history is often watered down for children, especially if it's > politically dangerous history. And in the current climate of the > WW, Muggle/Wizard relations are a political time bomb. It would be > very unwise to instill either an unhealthy fear or an unhealthy > hatred of Muggles into wizarding children. Better to whitewash the > history for now. > > Since we have one source in canon being contradicted by three other > sources in canon, I think it's safe to say Harry's textbook is not > telling the full tale. > > Betsy And, let us remember that Harry is hardly the best of Professor Binns' students. History of Magic seems to be his least favorite course in terms of the actual subject matter, although due to Snape Potions is his least favorite class. Like many teenagers, he just isn't interested in the subject and finds it dry and boring. I think Betsy is right that the textbook is, in keeping with many lower level history texts, not all that good. But Harry certainly doesn't read it very thoroughly, either, and probably comes away with all sorts of skewed ideas. And it doesn't help that Binns seems to be a pretty poor teacher. You know, it strikes me that Professor Binns may well represent a milder version of the same phenomenon we saw with Umbridge. The Ministry felt that DADA was a dangerous subject and wanted to make sure the students only learned an "approved" version, with all the dangerous parts stripped away. Perhaps factions in the Ministry have long had the same view of History of Magic. After all, why does DD allow Binns to teach (although I realize we can ask that about a LOT of the Hogwarts faculty)? Perhaps because he is under pressure from the Ministry to do so. The Ministry knows that Binns only uses "approved" textbooks and covers "approved" subjects. They could easily disguise this pressure as economic parsimony (i.e. Binns still wants to teach, how wonderful! We won't have to pay him a salary and he won't even require any quarters!) Meanwhile they are making sure that the dangerous parts (from their POV) of Wizarding History, such as the details of the Wizard/Muggle split, are never taught. Recall that Binns is the only major professor who was, to our knowledge, never visited by Umbridge. Perhaps he is known to be the Ministry's ghost. And isn't it interesting that the various bits of important historical information that crop up in the stories always come from sources OTHER than the history professor? Of course all this is probably bull and Binns is just a bad professor that Albus keeps for whatever reasons he keeps bad teachers. But wouldn't it explain a lot, and be juicy besides, if there are elements in the ministry bound and determined that the dangerous facts of wizarding history never reach impressionable ears? Lupinlore From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 22:42:01 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:42:01 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126054 >>Phoenixgod: >I think that could have been one of the problems of OOTP. She had every so precisely planned out that she had to go ooc with a few of the characters to get the to the spot they needed to be even though it wouldn't really make since for them to do it, since she didn't have the room to allow for changes in her narrative.< >>Lupinlore: >I think you may well be on to something here, Phoenixgod. The tyranny of an outline could well explain the OOC characters in OOTP, along with many of the other contrived developments.< Betsy: I think we've discussed this before, but I can't resist throwing my two cents in. Again . I really didn't see any character in OotP acting out of character. Except for Ginny, no one came out of left field for me. I even understood Harry's anger and frustration with being kept in the dark about things. (It's never good to keep folks who thrive on action *out* of the action.) Am I alone in this? I do wonder though, what contrived developments? >>Lupinlore: >An example is Ron suddenly being both a prefect and a Quidditch keeper.< Betsy: What? But Ron works so darn hard to become keeper. Actually, I would have been surprised if Ron *hadn't* tried out for a spot on the team. He's quidditch mad, his brothers have all played (except for Percy, who's *definitely not* Ron's role model), and we learned in PS/SS that Ron, at the very least, wants to be on the team. Now if Ron had been an outstanding keeper, totally unfazed by Draco's taunts or the attentions of the crowd, *then* I would have suspected authorial tampering. No - Ron earns his spot, and in the end, he earns his triumph. (Sucks that it was off-screen though. I'm betting JKR is setting us up for something there.) Ron's being prefect was also handled perfectly well, IMO. First, everyone is rather insultingly surprised that he got it instead of Harry. And second, Dumbledore, in the end, makes it clear that Harry had been removed from the running. Of the fifth year boys only Dean struck me as someone who could have been prefect. But he's been so uninvolved in all the adventures that have earned Gryffindor their housecup year after year, even he would have been a strange choice over Ron. Frankly, Harry is so unassuming in general, I don't know that he'd have made a good prefect. Actually, in many ways I feel like JKR has been holding back when it comes to Ron. We've been shown time and again that he's a crack chess player. Has he ever shown a head for strategy off the game board (and I'm not talking fanon, here )? He's also more sexually aware than Harry, and shows some real jealousy, when it comes to Hermione, towards both Krum and Harry. Will something come of that (beyond R/Hr I mean)? For that matter, has his jealousy towards Harry's place in the spotlight been fully dealt with? No, JKR has set Ron up for some major stuff from the beginning of the series. And it wasn't just with the Mirror of Erised (though I'd argue that if Ron does become Head Boy and Quidditch Captain, that would be foreshadowing rather than a special power of the Mirror). JKR has constantly given hints that Ron is a character to keep an eye on. If nothing happened with him it would be totally anticlimatic. >>Lupinlore: >I agree that Hermione suffers a great deal from authorial empathy, but I'm not sure that explains the problems with her in OOTP. I think much of it was that she was dragged along by the forced developments with many of the other characters.< Betsy: What "forced developments"? Was there a time that you thought Hermione was acting out of character? As to authorial empathy, I'm going to withhold judgement until the end of the series. Hermione did some pretty ruthless things in OotP, (in GoF too, for that matter) and I wonder if there will be any consequences she'll have to face. But Hermione has always shown a tendency towards ruthlessness when she's sure she's right. (Here's an interesting essay by No Remorse comparing Hermione to Umbridge: http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/31520.html ) But again, I didn't feel any author strong-arming going on with Hermione or her reactions to various events. Betsy From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 14 22:44:21 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:44:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Crabbe & Goyle Message-ID: <20050314224421.11348.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126055 On the left and the right of the spinal cord are the two strings of the sympathetic nervous system. Almost like two body guards of the spinal cord, they don't have much of a mind of their own. They just do as they're told. If Draco Malfoy personifies the spinal cord with the serpent-fire running through it, then obviously Vincent Crabbe and Gregory Goyle personify the two sympathetic nervous strings on either side. In the Eastern esoteric tradition they're called Ida and Pingala. In the New Testament they're referred to as Ananias and Sapphira. I have mentioned several times that the new soul-force, personified by Harry, descends along the right string of the sympathetic nervous string to the sacral plexus, where the kundalini is defeated. The soul-force then slowly rises up the left string, towards the pineal gland, the place of the crown chakra. When it reaches that point, the apprentice alchemist has completed his first initiation: the Mercury initiation. He receives the Holy Spirit and the new soul becomes conscious. The old serpent-fire (Draco) is defeated and disappears. The new serpent-fire now circulates through the the spinal cord as well as the two strings of the sympathetic nervous system. This is symbolised so beautifully in the caduceus, or staff of Mercury. The central rod symbolises the new force operating in the spinal cord, and the two serpents symbolise the two renewed sympathetic cords. The globe with the two wings (the golden snitch) symbolises the new Mercury (or Hermione) consciousness. The wings symbolise the heights to which the new mind can fly, and of course Mercury symbolises the contact with Mt Olympus, i.e. God. By the above I'm saying that this knowledge was known to the ancient Greeks and Romans and taught in their Mystery Schools, and they received it from the ancient Egyptians. As we know Harry and Ron creep into Crabbe's and Goyle's skins, in a manner of speaking, because they take polyjuice potion to take their place to get information out of Malfoy about the Chamber of Secrets. This is a way of indicating the construction of a new serpent-fire in the candidate for alchemical transfiguration. Harry Potter tells the story several times in different ways, using several different symbologies. May I take this opportunity, by the way, to stress the fact that in liberating alchemy, the whole person, including his physical body, is involved in the process of transfiguring from a mortal, flawed human being, to an immortal, divine God-Man. Paul was right when he said that our body is a temple in which the Holy Spirit must dwell. To begin the process of alchemy, the physical body is necessary. If it were not necessary, we wouldn't have it. However once the basic process has been started, i.e. once Harry has been born, the death of the physical body can not stop it. And as I said when discussing Lucius Malfoy, the physical body cannot transfigure into anything divine. It's doomed. Sorry, Lucius. To resume the discussion about the way Harry Potter tells the story about alchemy; in actual fact the story told in book 2 about the killing of the basilisk and the ascent to Dumbledore's office is the complete story of liberation, but it's only one aspect, and so in Harry Potter it's a sort of foreshadowing of what will happen in book 7. We haven't reached the end of the story yet, and Crabbe and Goyle may come into the story again if Jo wants to tell us about the new serpent-fire forming in the sympathetic nervous system and after that taking over the old serpent-fire in the spinal cord. Perhaps she'll have Crabbe and Goyle siding with Harry in book 7. It's inevitable, really. Then I guess Draco will also be conquered by Harry. That could mean he'll side with Harry after Crabbe and Goyle do. Jo could make Draco die, but I'm a big softy and I think it would be more satisfying if at the end Draco sees the error of his ways and sides with Harry against Voldemort. All this is related to the Gate of Saturn that I've mentioned so often. The Gate of Saturn symbolises the alchemist going through the last stage of his apprenticeship. His old consciousness dies and the new one is born. The new consciousness has complete power over the new serpent-fire. As I've said before I hope no one thinks this is painful or full of suffering. Although Harry Potter paints a rather painful picture, as does the New Testament, there is no pain, but sheer, unadulterated joy, as the prodigal son return to the loving arms of the father to be united with him for ever. To lose the old, imperfect earthly personality is like losing an old ragged coat that is so worn out and smelly it feels like a relief to throw it off for ever. Can you imagine Harry re-uniting with Sirius? Just one last thing. Vincent = conquering. The right string. Pingala, the male string. Gregory = watchful. The left string. Ida, the female string. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 14 22:45:23 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:45:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's House (was Re: History and Myth Behind HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "someoneofsomeplace" wrote: > > > Fitzov de Sullens: > > The Chapter Title of "Spinner's End" also has me intrigued. It > > actually sounds more like a house name than a street name to me. > > > > Perhaps "Spinners End" is DD's house/estate? I'm not sure why, but > it just *sounds* like a Dumbledore-ish sort of place. > > Now, what effect would this have on the plot of HBP? > > John. Well, from the American cover, it seems that Dumbledore will be much more active in Harry's education in HBP. Perhaps he is taken out of Privet Drive to spend the rest of the summer at DD's house? It would make a lot of sense. DD would want Harry to go someplace safe. It would be cruel to send him to Grimmauld Place, with all it's memories of Sirius, and there are evidently reasons he doesn't want Harry to come to Hogwarts in the summer (perhaps because it would be too conspicuous of a break with tradition). The Burrow is probably not safe enough. So Dumbledore's own house would be a logical choice. Also, one assumes Dumbledore is going to want to work on healing his relationship with Harry. Having the boy as a houseguest for a while would give him time to start that process. If Dumbledore is himself the HBP, then a sojourn at Dumbledore's house might serve for Harry to gather knowledge about Dumbledore's past that will be important as the book continues. Just speculating, of course. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 14 23:03:18 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:03:18 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126057 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > > > >>Lupinlore: > >An example is Ron suddenly being both a prefect and a Quidditch > keeper.< > > > Betsy: > What? But Ron works so darn hard to become keeper. Actually, I > would have been surprised if Ron *hadn't* tried out for a spot on > the team. He's quidditch mad, his brothers have all played (except > for Percy, who's *definitely not* Ron's role model), and we learned > in PS/SS that Ron, at the very least, wants to be on the team. > > Now if Ron had been an outstanding keeper, totally unfazed by > Draco's taunts or the attentions of the crowd, *then* I would have > suspected authorial tampering. No - Ron earns his spot, and in the > end, he earns his triumph. (Sucks that it was off-screen though. > I'm betting JKR is setting us up for something there.) > > Ron's being prefect was also handled perfectly well, IMO. First, > everyone is rather insultingly surprised that he got it instead of > Harry. And second, Dumbledore, in the end, makes it clear that > Harry had been removed from the running. Of the fifth year boys > only Dean struck me as someone who could have been prefect. But > he's been so uninvolved in all the adventures that have earned > Gryffindor their housecup year after year, even he would have been a > strange choice over Ron. Frankly, Harry is so unassuming in > general, I don't know that he'd have made a good prefect. > Chuckle. Well, we'll just have to disagree on this one, Betsy. I found the whole prefect situation so contrived and poorly written that it strikes me as one of the worst pieces of plotting JKR has done in the entire series. It's like she said, "WHOOPS! Got to get Ronniekins a prefect badge! Got to make sure the Mirror of Erised comes true! I'm sure they won't see this one coming!" Like Phoenixgod, I found it impossible to believe that Dumbledore would act as strangely and stupidly as he did, in that situation and most of the others in OOTP. And if the Mirror is foreshadowing, it's incredibly clumsy foreshadowing of incredibly implausible plot developments. The keeper situation is, I agree, more plausible and better written. Had it not been for the clumsiness of the prefect subplot, I would have had no trouble with it at all. But I maintain, linked together they point to a clumsy, contrived, and poorly written attempt to give Ron everything he saw in the Mirror, flying directly in the face of plausibility and believability. Now, if in the end this plays out in a more believable and less contrived fashion, JKR will have recovered from her disaster in the making. For instance if Ron becomes Quidditch captain but not Headboy, or vice-versa, I will conceed that the foreshadowing in the Mirror is not as poorly done as it first appears. But if the Mirror does come true, it will be forced and manipulative beyond belief. Lupinlore From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 23:13:05 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:13:05 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126058 Lupinlore: Chuckle. Well, we'll just have to disagree on this one, Betsy. I found the whole prefect situation so contrived and poorly written that it strikes me as one of the worst pieces of plotting JKR has done in the entire series. It's like she said, "WHOOPS! Got to get Ronniekins a prefect badge! Got to make sure the Mirror of Erised comes true! I'm sure they won't see this one coming!" Like Phoenixgod, I found it impossible to believe that Dumbledore would act as strangely and stupidly as he did, in that situation and most of the others in OOTP. And if the Mirror is foreshadowing, it's incredibly clumsy foreshadowing of incredibly implausible plot developments. The keeper situation is, I agree, more plausible and better written. Had it not been for the clumsiness of the prefect subplot, I would have had no trouble with it at all. But I maintain, linked together they point to a clumsy, contrived, and poorly written attempt to give Ron everything he saw in the Mirror, flying directly in the face of plausibility and believability. Alla: Hmmm, I agree with you that Ron becoming a prefect came out of nowhere, BUT if Harry is removed from running, won't you agree that ANY of fifth year boys would be equally good candidates? If yes, I'd say Ron had some advantages, because he was with Harry fighting together against Voldie in PS/SS and CoS, so Dumbledore has pretty good indications about his character, I think. Isn't the character one of the main reasons how Prefect is chosen? I can be very off on this one. Grades are also important factor, right? Is there any indication that Ron's grades are worse than other boys? I guess my question to you will be if Ron did not see all that in the Mirror, would you have considered him being Prefect not as contrived as you think now? In other words is your main objection Ron becoming a prefect per se, or the fact that he saw himself getting all that in the Mirror? I think that without Mirror I would feel better about Ron being a prefect. JMO, Alla. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 23:18:55 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:18:55 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126059 >>Betsy: >First of all, as per the prophecy, the battle will come down to Voldemort and Harry. Harry will have to stand alone. Dumbledore will have to watch from the sidelines and just *hope* that he's taught Harry enough.< >> Hannah: >Yes, the prophecy says that Harry is the only one who can defeat LV, and that 'one must die at the hand of the other.' But it doesn't say that Harry has to do the whole thing alone, without help. >I think DD could participate actively in the final battle, as long as Harry does the actual whatever-it-is to get rid of LV.< Betsy: I agree that Harry *can* have folks standing by his side when he goes into the final whatever-it-is (I like that phrase ) with Voldemort (like you I won't predict whether he actually *will* or who those folks might be) but I was talking more about the idea that in the end it will come down to Harry vs. Voldemort. Even if that final face-off takes all of three seconds, for that moment, nothing else will matter. I think Dumbledore would much prefer that that final moment, even if if it's a nanosecond moment, be between him and Voldemort. And I think it's very difficult (or was anyway, I think Dumbledore learns from his mistakes) for Dumbledore to deal with the fact that the final moment is Harry's. Which is very different from the usual mind set of the "wise old man" in hero's journey tales. Usually the role of mentor and teacher is old hat to the wiseman character. In this case, Dumbledore is filling that role for the first time really, and he's learned that it is not an easy role to fill. (And let me add, that I know Dumbledore is a teacher and has been for many years, but usually he's the one facing the danger, not training others to do the job. This is me trying to avoid repeating myself by... repeating myself. heh.) Betsy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 14 23:18:54 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:18:54 -0000 Subject: History at Hogwarts (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126060 Lupinlore: > ...why does DD allow Binns to teach (although I realize we can > ask that about a LOT of the Hogwarts faculty)? Perhaps because he > is under pressure from the Ministry to do so. The Ministry knows > that Binns only uses "approved" textbooks and covers "approved" > subjects. ...Meanwhile they are making sure that the dangerous > parts (from their POV) of Wizarding History, such as the details > of the Wizard/Muggle split, are never taught. > Of course all this is probably bull and Binns is just a bad > professor that Albus keeps for whatever reasons he keeps bad > teachers. But wouldn't it explain a lot, and be juicy besides, if > there are elements in the ministry bound and determined that the > dangerous facts of wizarding history never reach impressionable > ears? SSSusan: I certainly can't disprove your view, Lupinlore, but I do doubt it. DD has a history of sharing information with the Hogwarts kids that the Ministry would *not* approve of his sharing (how Cedric died, that Voldemort has come back) and of generally *doing* things of which the Ministry would not approve (allowing Lupin & Hagrid to teach, for instance). So my guess would be that Binns is just JKR's giving us a stereotypical boring history teacher, just as Madam Pince is a stereotypical severe & shushy librarian, just as Trelawney is a stereotypical daft & clueless "fortune-teller." I've NO idea why DD allows Binns and Trelawney to teach if they're really not all that good, but I can't imagine that he would cave to Ministry pressure to teach a watered-down history curriculum, where important but upsetting facts have been removed to "protect" children's sensibilities. Siriusly Snapey Susan, former history teacher & current library person, who's not keen on stereotypical images of same. From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 14 23:29:15 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:29:15 -0000 Subject: History at Hogwarts (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > > > SSSusan: > I certainly can't disprove your view, Lupinlore, but I do doubt it. > DD has a history of sharing information with the Hogwarts kids that > the Ministry would *not* approve of his sharing (how Cedric died, > that Voldemort has come back) and of generally *doing* things of > which the Ministry would not approve (allowing Lupin & Hagrid to > teach, for instance). Actually, it isn't really my view so much as a playful little thing that occurred to me. Like you, I very much doubt it's "true." > > So my guess would be that Binns is just JKR's giving us a > stereotypical boring history teacher, just as Madam Pince is a > stereotypical severe & shushy librarian, just as Trelawney is a > stereotypical daft & clueless "fortune-teller." I've NO idea why DD > allows Binns and Trelawney to teach if they're really not all that > good, but I can't imagine that he would cave to Ministry pressure to > teach a watered-down history curriculum, where important but > upsetting facts have been removed to "protect" children's > sensibilities. > Oh, I'm sure he wouldn't cave if pressed directly. But if the Ministry said "You've got a perfectly good history professor who isn't costing a knut, we won't give you funds to hire another one," that is another situation. But, like I said, I agree with you that this is all probably not true in the least. It makes for a good story, though. :-) Lupinlore From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 14 23:32:51 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:32:51 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four References: <1110803049.91398.7833.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000f01c528ee$256f3620$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 126062 Steve wrote: >Muggle-borns could be the children of peasant, farmers, craftsmen, >scribes, landlords, businessmen, landed gentry, or aristocrats. I will They could be (though I'm not sure how many people could have been described (in our terms) as landlords and business people in the 10th century). But unless we assume that there isn't a match between the makeup of the general population and the makeup of the Muggleborns, the proportion who _weren't_ peasants would have been pretty small. Even 800 years later, the population of the British Isles was overwhelmingly rural. >addition, knowing certain Latin based incantations is a far cry from >speaking Latin. Although, I admit that any educated person would be >likely to speak Latin, but that could be magic or muggle. Probably, though the vernacular languages were being written well before this time. The Welsh Cynfeirdd wrote their stuff back in the 6th century, for example. >read, write, and do basic arithmetic would be highly educated. The >only way for a muggle to achieve this would be for them to join a >religious order at a very young age, or be the children of wealth >and/or nobility. Which is quite important. In my own version of WW history, the invention of writing was one of the biggest spurs to the development of wizardry, making it far easier to transmit information down the generations rather than having to reinvent everything over and over again >That's why I say that everything was done by Master/Apprentice >relationships. The classic wizard's tale, starts with a Master Wizard I'd agree with you on that one. Possibly also to say that there were both High and Low Wizards: the High ones being the aristocracy with their own castles/estates, the Low ones being the village wizards and witches doing the work of healers and charmers. Each in their own way would then pick up on any children with magical potential and train them up as best they could. >Which brings us to the Basilisk. Just as I cautioned against believing >what people are now say about Salazar, I again caution against >accepting /legend-base/ opinions of what the Basilisk was for. All we I remember some posts a long while ago (though I couldn't point you at the number now) that argued cogently that the Basilisk was never conclusively described as attacking Harry, its actions could equally well be described as protecting him. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 14 23:39:45 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:39:45 -0000 Subject: History at Hogwarts (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126063 SSSusan previously: > > I've NO idea why DD allows Binns and Trelawney to teach if > > they're really not all that good, but I can't imagine that he > > would cave to Ministry pressure to teach a watered-down history > > curriculum, where important but upsetting facts have been > > removed to "protect" children's sensibilities. Lupinlore: > Oh, I'm sure he wouldn't cave if pressed directly. But if the > Ministry said "You've got a perfectly good history professor who > isn't costing a knut, we won't give you funds to hire another > one," that is another situation. SSSusan: This raises an interesting question. DOES the Ministry fund Hogwarts teacher salaries or general operating expenses? What *is* the Ministry's degree of oversight? How much autonomy does Hogwarts have? Fudge has said, "I've *allowed* you to..." when speaking to DD, and we saw him clamp down during Umbridge's reign, but I wonder what the Hogwarts "charter" says about authority and whether the Ministry has any fiscal role to play? Back to the Binns & Trelawney as teachers issue (not to mention the hiring of Lockhart), I have to confess that I *don't* understand how this fits with what we know of DD. He seems to care very much about children and about doing the right thing. So -- esp. if I assume the Ministry offers NO financial assistance to Hogwarts -- why does DD keep these folks and why hire Lockhart? Yes, *perhaps* he's kept Trelawney in order to protect her, as has been hypothesized. Yes, *perhaps* it's hard to find someone to teach DADA, but was the "jinx" well known at the point of finding a replacement for Quirrell? Others have recently been talking about aspects of the books which have felt forced to them [Ginny's emergence in OotP, Ron as prefect & Keeper in OotP]. For me, this notion of crappy teachers being hired/retained at Hogwarts bothers me more than those others. Siriusly Snapey Susan From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 14 23:33:35 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:33:35 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > > I guess my question to you will be if Ron did not see all that in the > Mirror, would you have considered him being Prefect not as contrived > as you think now? In other words is your main objection Ron becoming > a prefect per se, or the fact that he saw himself getting all that in > the Mirror? > > I think that without Mirror I would feel better about Ron being a > prefect. > > JMO, > > Alla. Good points, Alla. Without the Mirror I would still have felt the prefect subplot to be rather unbelievable, but it would not have seemed nearly so contrived and poorly written. You are right that it is the incredibly clumsy foreshadowing in the mirror (if that is indeed what it is) that makes the development of Ron seem so contrived and manipulative. Lupinlore From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 00:40:55 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:40:55 -0000 Subject: A trip beyond the veil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126065 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ginny343" wrote: > > Alla wrote: > > Since I am fond of speculation that Harry will somehow go behind > > the Veil to try and find Sirius there, > > > Okay, I haven't noticed this idea has been explored . . . of course > there are so many posts! :) > > I also would like to see Harry go behind the veil and try to find > Sirius. I have wondered for a while if maybe HRH would make a > potion that would allow Harry to walk through the veil for a time > and be able to return. ... > This could bring in lots of possibilities. He might meet his > parents there, who may give him some information that he needs . . . > ...edited... > > Just some ideas. > > Ginny343, Welcome to the group. Here are a couple of quick references to previous Veil discussion. I'm still looking for one really good discussion, but searching using Yahoo is difficult. When I find it, I'll let you know. Date: Sun Jun 29, 2003 3:57 pm Subject: OOP: Veil - Gateway of Lost Souls http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/65783 Date: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:32 pm Subject: An Odd Ghostly Question. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/124602 Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:23 am Subject: Re: Sirius' death and The Veil Room http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/114355 Date: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:47 pm Subject: Re: Good Writing & Death http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/110753 Date: Sat Aug 14, 2004 3:03 am Subject: The End By Assorted Plot Devices http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/110039 Date: Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:25 am Subject: Re: Siriusly Alive ...or Gone but not forgotten http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/96449 Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 12:50 am Subject: How about... this ending? (was: A portrait of Sirius?) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/95121 These aren't necessarily the best ones, just the only ones I could find in reasonable amount of time. Once you read these you should be brimming with ideas. Also remember that the above links, in most cases, take you to the middle of a thread. Be sure to read up and down the threat to get everyone's feedback on the idea. No subject is ever closed here, so feel free to comment even on these olf threads. STeve/bboyminn From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 02:34:21 2005 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 02:34:21 -0000 Subject: The Prohecy / Dumbledore, Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mryburge" wrote: > > > mhbobbin writes: > > DD's story is that he was willing to meet Sybil out of respect > > for her grandmother Cassandra Trelawney, who was a famous seer. > > He indicates he had low expectations for the mtg. I'm willing to > > accept that there was no more to his rationale for meeting her > > than he has told us (although he so often holds something back) > > . DD's willingness to meet with this seer immediately gives > > the seer some credibility, whether or not deserved. The surprise > > prophecy would be of interest to Voldemort simply because it was > > made to DD. That it was made in a trance probably enhanced its > > credibility. > > > > I'm not so sure that Trelawney is a fraud. She seems to be more > > right than not in what she sees, although not in divining the > > meaning. > > mryburge: > I am not sure that the prophecy meant that much to Dumbledore until Voldemort acted in such as way so as to make the prophecy "true" as > to Harry. (E.g., although D. warned James and Lily into hiding, it > doesn't seem like the prophecy was the reason - because he didn't > warn the Longbottoms either, when the prophecy could just as easily, AT THE TIME, have been about Neville.) Although once it came to pass, he became a "believer." mhbobbin: We don't actually know if the Longbottoms were told to go into hiding at the time. We only know that some time after the events at Godric Hollow when people were feeling safe, the Longbottoms were tortured. mryburge: > > Contrast Dumbledore with Hermione, however. She adamantly refuses > to consider Trelawney as anything other than a fraud. And she may > be right - consider that the prophecy was nothing more than a > guess/prediction until it was acted upon. It was only LV's > voluntary act that made the prophecy "true" as to Harry, > and "untrue" as to Neville. I think level-headed, Muggle-born > Hermione knows that no prophecy is written in stone, and that > choice, action, free will, etc. all work to affect outcome. She, > who loves "magic" more than anyone in the series, refuses to > acknowledge divination as magical at all, and remains the one who > refuses to be blinded/impressed/overwhelmed by the prophecy. In > other words, she seems to be the only one at this point who believes > that the outcome can be changed. And if the outcome of the prophecy > can be changed, then what is its real value? Hence, perhaps, > Hermione's disdain? > > MaryB mhbobbin: First, whether or not DD believed the prophecy does not mean that Voldemort would not take it seriously. For that reason alone, DD would have to consider advising the Potters, and probably the Longbottoms, to hide. Second: I love the character Hermione. But her rational mind does not have the last word on whether the concept of prophecy is true or not. I think all the characters are challenged in one way or another and HErmione's challenge is to get beyone her rational concept of the possible and to consider the impossible. But whether or not the concept of divination is a serious discipline in the wizarding world, much of the wizarding world does accept there's some basis for it. So back to the original question--why did the Voldemort act upon a prophecy considering how unreliable it was--it may come down simply to he gave it some credence, and expected there'd be no consequence for him if it wasn't. mhbobbin From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Mar 15 02:56:36 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 02:56:36 -0000 Subject: FILK: Struck in the Riddle Chateau Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126067 Frank Bryce in his first solo! Struck in the Riddle Chateau (GoF, Chap. 1) To the tune of Stuck in the Middle With you by the Stealers Wheel MIDI at: http://www.sequinsbyeileen.com/midi.htm THE SCENE: The Riddle House. FRANK BRYCE, as he is hit by the AK rays of Lord Voldemort, has yet enough time to sing his swan song. FRANK BRYCE: Well I don't know who has come here tonight I got the feeling that he isn't too nice He's a Lord who's sitting upon a chair And he promises to prove a nightmare What will be left of me, Voldy tells me, "Nighty-night." Struck in the Riddle chateau Yes I'm struck in the Riddle chateau And I'm wondering where it is I should go He refused to reveal to me his face For he's lacking so in all social grace What will be left of me, Voldy tells me, "Nighty-night." Struck in the Riddle chateau Well he's speakin' of a murder Quite amused about his fiendish plans As his serpent comes a-crawling Them two start to talk and say Hiss, hiss. He talks in code like a criminal For that "Quidditch" word makes no sense at all He's so cruel he's plotting further attacks I can hear it all despite my earwax What will be left of me, Voldy tells me, "Nighty-night." Struck in the Riddle chateau Well he's speakin' of a murder Quite amused about his fiendish plans As his serpent comes a-crawling Them two start to talk and say Hiss, hiss. Yeah I don't think I should be here tonight I've been hit by rays of emerald light I weren't scared til Wormtail turned `round his chair And he hit me with Kedavran glare What will be left of me, Voldy tells me, "Nighty-night." Struck in the Riddle chateau Yes I'm struck in the Riddle chateau Struck in the Riddle chateau Here I am struck in the Riddle chateau - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From nifer819 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 23:23:50 2005 From: nifer819 at yahoo.com (nifer819) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:23:50 -0000 Subject: History at Hogwarts and the Founding Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126068 Is there any evidence to indicate how old Professor Binns is? We know from Nearly Headless Nick's deathday party in CS that he died 500 years ago. Is it possible that Professor Binns is as old if not older than Nick? Could it be that the sorting hat is not the only one with first hand, err... first hat, knowledge of what happened at Hogwarts at the time of the Founding Four's split? From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 23:29:32 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:29:32 -0000 Subject: Teachers (was History at Hogwarts (was Re: Wizard Persecution )) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > After all, why does DD allow Binns to teach (although I realize we > can ask that about a LOT of the Hogwarts faculty)? Maybe the Hogwarts version of tenure doesn't end with the death of a professor? For all we know, Hogwarts has a long history of corporeally-challenged instuctors. But this brings up something I've been pondering for a while: How easy is it to find teachers for a school in which *every* student goes armed, and few of them can be trusted to get even benignly-intentioned spells right the first time? We know it's hard for DD to find qualified DADA teachers, it may be nearly as hard to find any teachers who want to spend a lot of time around a bunch of kids who can barely control their magic. Amiable Dorsai From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 01:19:18 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:19:18 -0000 Subject: History and Myth Behind HP/ of Floo or Portkeys? In-Reply-To: <20050314092322.74141.qmail@web86703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126070 > > > Fitzov: > "Is there a geographical limit to apparating and floo powder?" > > There was talk of this on another thread, I do not remember which one, but it had someting to do with Narcissa Malfoy not wanting Draco to attend Durmstrag, thus he attends Hogwarts because it's closer to home. Could there be a limit to how far you can travel with Floo, which would require you to use a Portkey/Apparate over longer distances instead? What of everyone that travels by Floo to Gringotts bank? Is there only one branch of it, or is it available in other countries/locations? What of the big Quidditch match, did Mr. Weasley explain that or is it just because there's nothing on the Floo network near enough for that many wizards (stadium seats 100,000 at a time and it was full,) to either Apparate or Floo there? -Chys. From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 01:46:01 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:46:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's House / Occlumency Lessons? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126071 Lupinlore (I think...) wrote: > Also, one assumes Dumbledore is going to want to work on healing his > relationship with Harry. Having the boy as a houseguest for a while would give him time to start that process. > > If Dumbledore is himself the HBP, then a sojourn at Dumbledore's house might serve for Harry to gather knowledge about Dumbledore's past that will be important as the book continues. > > Just speculating, of course. Another speculation- did Dumbledore hint at teaching Harry Occlumency -himself- not just getting Snape to grow up (out of his hissy fit) and continue their lessons? Maybe Harry gets to spend some Summertime with Dumbledore and work on Occlumency? Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 02:25:21 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 02:25:21 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126072 Lupinlore: > > Good points, Alla. Without the Mirror I would still have felt the > prefect subplot to be rather unbelievable, but it would not have > seemed nearly so contrived and poorly written. You are right that it is the incredibly clumsy foreshadowing in the mirror (if that is > indeed what it is) that makes the development of Ron seem so contrived and manipulative. > > How is it clumbsy foreshadowing if he actually gets part of what he wants, having earned it himself? (I see nothing wrong with that, no matter WHO is involved. Isn't the point of foreshadowing to show something that could potentially happen? Just because it's something the character desires doesn't make it any less of an achievable goal.) I don't think people give Ron enough credit. He falls to the background as not being as good as the other characters because Harry is the main focus, he's puffed up and more important and seems to make the others around him pale in comparison, what with the plot revolving around him. Hermione is always there to keep them going with her quick knowledge in tight spots, but I do think Ron is one of the most important of the supporting cast. Hermione reminds me of a Mary-Sue or self- insert, like it's the author's personal reaction going on and thus the character is automatically more important, even if it's not openly stated as such. Ron's a good character that plays a nescessary role. Ron's the reason, aside from mild animosity for Draco and the reputation of Sl., that Harry Chose to be in a different house from Draco- because Ron befriended Harry on the train and I do think that contrast had added to his decision, seeing one kind of person (mediocre Ron) compared to another (haughty Draco). Ron's usually there when Harry really needed him. Like Harry he might not have the best grades but then, who knows? It's not really mentioned. I think the Prefect position is chosen more for 'character' and it's like a popularity contest when students are involved, too. (Why did I suddenly think of Prom King and Queen?)They need to have authority, and perhaps Ron would build more as time went on, who knows what the plan was supposedly in DD's manipulative mind, but he represents Potential for something better. Ron is well rounded and usually likeable, definitely something to work off of. As well, Draco is a person everyone would listen to. He's probably academically stable, too. Some people wonder why he got to be prefect. I say, why not? He probably earned it as much as Ron did. Chys From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 03:46:20 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:46:20 -0000 Subject: Wizard Persecution (was: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126073 >>Alla: >Good quotes, Betsy, but I don't see how these three quotes contradict the other one. To me the question is whether wizards and witches were burned and I don't see the proof of it so far.< Betsy: That wasn't the question as I understod it. I reread upthread to make sure I didn't totally misread things, and what was under discussion was whether or not the Muggle persecution of wizards and witches constituted a viable threat. You and Valky used the canon of Harry's textbook to suggest that Muggles posed no threat to witches and wizards. (They couldn't even burn them!) I brought up the other quotes to show that magical folks did feel threatened by Muggles. (It was a dark and dangerous time.) Which makes the contradiction pretty clear. >>Alla: >I just don't see the contradiction and I don't see the proof that this book whitewashes the history. It just talks about real witches being able to save themselves from fire. None of your quotes says that they could not do that. :) >In fact, they just say that persecution occurred.< Betsy: But the textbook suggests that the persecution wasn't really that bad, annoying more than anything else. And that's how you use that particular canon. >>Alla (message # 126032): >...I think it is reasonable to assume based on canon that Salasar mistrust of muggles was even if justifiable, not very well based on facts...< Betsy: So according to Harry's textbook, you feel Salazar had no fact based reason to distrust Muggles. But the quotes that I used suggest that, according to canon, Muggles really *were* a danger to wizards and witches. Whether or not *some* magical folk could survive *some* methods of torture and execution, JKR has given us clear indications that Muggles did push the WW into hiding. As to me suggesting that the textbook is a whitewash of history, well, it puts a funny, happy spin on what has been shown to be a pretty bleak time period. If that ain't whitewash, I don't know what is. :) >>Alla: >Professor Binns also teaches kids, so why is it more reasonable to assume that he is not telling tales and the other book does?< Betsy: Because we have *one* source of information being contradicted by *three* sources of information. When you have three seperate sources saying one thing is true (Muggles really did present a threat to Wizards) lined up against one lone source saying the opposite (Silly Muggles couldn't touch Wizards!), and especially when the three sources are backed up with the historical fact that the wizards hid all evidence of magic from Muggles, it's logical to go with the more backed up canon. It's especially important that the three sources come from very seperate places. Though obviously all three spring from JKR's mind, she put them in the mouths of three seperate characters, all of whom she considered fairly scholarly. Betsy From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Mar 15 04:50:35 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 04:50:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126074 > Betsy: > I think Dumbledore would much prefer that that final moment, even if > if it's a nanosecond moment, be between him and Voldemort. And I > think it's very difficult (or was anyway, I think Dumbledore learns > from his mistakes) for Dumbledore to deal with the fact that the > final moment is Harry's. Which is very different from the usual > mind set of the "wise old man" in hero's journey tales. Usually the > role of mentor and teacher is old hat to the wiseman character. In > this case, Dumbledore is filling that role for the first time > really, and he's learned that it is not an easy role to fill. I don't think we're going to convince each other of our respective pov, Betsy. I understand what you are saying and can see how you come to it, but I still don't buy that Dumbledore would be that reluctant to tell Harry what he needed to know. It just struck me as completely out of the character (As I understood him) that had been established in the previous four books. Remember, this is the same man who *encouraged* Harry to travel back in time, in a dangerous stunt that could wipe him from existence, a man who *rewarded* Harry for his quick actions in books one and two instead of punish him because of the danger, and then, in book four saw Harry outwit a dragon, survive a duel with his nemesis, and do other countlessly brave things. Then, all of a sudden, in the fifth book he wants to shield Harry because he cares too much? No, I just don't buy it. DD knows what Harry can do and never seemed overly concerned with shielding him from danger in the previous books. Honestly, I thought DD respected Harry more. phoenixgod2000, who thought DD was the second best character before book five and hopes book six redeems him From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 05:00:57 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:00:57 -0000 Subject: Wizard Persecution (was: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126075 Alla earlier: Good quotes, Betsy, but I don't see how these three quotes contradict the other one. To me the question is whether wizards and witches were burned and I don't see the proof of it so far.< Betsy: That wasn't the question as I understood it. I reread upthread to make sure I didn't totally misread things, and what was under discussion was whether or not the Muggle persecution of wizards and witches constituted a viable threat. You and Valky used the canon of Harry's textbook to suggest that Muggles posed no threat to witches and wizards. (They couldn't even burn them!) I brought up the other quotes to show that magical folks did feel threatened by Muggles. (It was a dark and dangerous time.) Which makes the contradiction pretty clear. Alla: Oh, OK then I will definitely concede that magical folks did feel threatened by Muggles. I will not concede however that we know the REASON why they feel threatened by Muggles ( why and how exactly they were persecuted). I will also not concede that wizards were burned. Betsy: Whether or not *some* magical folk could survive *some* methods of torture and execution, JKR has given us clear indications that Muggles did push the WW into hiding. Alla: I am not sure if it is true. We don't know for sure yet what exactly pushed WW into hiding. Persecution occurred, yes, but it does not necessarily follow that wizards went into hiding because of that, IMO. Although I am too tired to come up with reasonable alternative, I admit. :) Let me reiterate again my main point - whether Muggles persecuted Wizards or not, I find Salasar's prejudice against muggle born children to be quite... disgusting. These kids did not do anything to him, in fact they badly needed magical education just as all purebloods did, in fact I will argue that muggle borns were in more danger of being persecuted since they grew up among muggles. I mean, it is one thing when Salazar refused admission of muggle borns to his own house ( which I don't like much either, but hey, as long as they are admitted in other houses, I guess they will be educated), but when he started arguing that muggle borns should not be admitted into Hogwarts at all, well... let's just say that I think it is good that he left. :o) "A rift began to grow between Slytherin and the others. Slytherin wished to be more selective about the students admitted to Hogwarts. he believed that magical learning should be kept within all-magical families. He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy. After a while, there was a serious argument on the subject between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the school" - CoS, p.130. I am wondering about something else - Sorting Hat in OOP does not specifically states the reason for the conflict. "So Hogwarts worked in harmony For several happy years, But then discord crept among us Feeding on our faults and fears. The Houses that, like pillars four, Had once held up the school, Now turned upon each other and, Divided sought to rule. And for a while it seemed the school Must meet an early end, What with dueling and with fighting And with clash of friend on friend And at last there came a morning When Old Slytherin departed And though the fighting then died out He left us quite downhearted." - OOP, p.205-206. Now, it says quite specifically that the fighting ended when Slytherin left, so I'd imagine he was the major reason for conflict, but why Hat does not reiterate the reason for conflict again? Is it because JKR sufficiently described it earlier in the song or something else happened, which we are not privy to yet? I mean all that Hat says is that at first their differences did not stop Founders from working together, but then I don't get the impression that Salazar left because of those differences only, or am I just misreading or misunderstanding the text of the Song? I want to see Salazar as tragic figure, I really do, but the fact that he was once friend with others is not enough for me yet, I am sure others were upset that he left, but they could simply be upset because their friend turned to Darkness. Just my opinion of course, Alla From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Mar 15 05:15:44 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:15:44 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126076 - In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lupinlore: > I think you may well be on to something here, Phoenixgod. huh, I wonder how that happened. After all that about how the Mirror doesn't foretell the > future I'll throw the book against the wall if it turned out the > Mirror foretold the future, even by accident. Ron bothered me less just because something truly meaningful was *finally* happening to his character. I hope it sets up an arch that shows the fandom just how great the character can be. I see where you are coming from though. I wish it wouldn't have come at the expense of harry, nor was his moment of triumph happening off screen, well done either. > I agree that Hermione suffers a great deal from authorial empathy, but > I'm not sure that explains the problems with her in OOTP. I think > much of it was that she was dragged along by the forced developments > with many of the other characters. As they changed in rather > unbelievable ways to reach the end state that JKR's outline dictated, > her reactions had to change as well. In a way I feel rather sorry for > her. Caught in a world gone mad she at least remains sane, if shrill. Eh, Hermione seemed to backslide into the annoying rulesmonger that she was in the earlier books. Her crack about Harry having a "saving people thing" irritated me to no end. Why she picked then to suddenly decide having a wacky adventure was a bad idea is absolutely beyond me. And of course, she protests the one time it actually was a good idea to protest it. aside from being obnoxious, the whole thing was badly timed. And just another example of Hermione being always right. Which is really annoying. Especially since her brain seems to come at the expense of Harry and Ron's. > Oddly enough, I really didn't mind the developments with Ginny very > much. Given the much greater problems presented by the other > characters, I thought her sudden shifts were a relatively minor > disruption. After all, we haven't heard much from her in a couple of > books, and so at least there was the possibility that much of this had > been going on sub-rosa. It was badly handled if she's going to be as important as I think she might be. And for the record, if Ginny ends up a parseltongue, I may give up the series. Thats how much I hate both the idea and her character. > I agree with Betsy that JKR is probably heading for H/G. I agree with > you, Phoenixgod, that the Ginny presented in OOTP doesn't seem a very > good match for Harry. I'm not sure I'd agree Harry needs a "sweet" > love interest. I think that is exactly what he needs in order to balance him out. He needs someone who will back him up all the way and not present a struggle whenever something she doesn't like comes up. Which seemed to be were Ginny was heading to me. Harry needs someone like Luna, who won't be bullied, but will neither bully in return. Again, something I saw in Ginny. >At present all I can > see Harry doing with Ginny as presented in OOTP is descending > gradually into a battle of wills punctuated by increasing snarkiness. I see Harry and Ginny getting into a lot of loud arguments. Not the flirty kind like Ron and Hermione, but real, ugly fights. >If Ginny can maintain her sense of humor and cultivate a > version of Molly's strong will marked by calm, firmness, and >patience as opposed to her mother's bossiness, I could easily see >Ginny as being very good for Harry. There is no evidence of Ginny becoming that way in the books so far. To me, she seemed like an overbearing young girl with a chip on her shoulder because of the way she is treated by her mother and brothers since she is a girl and the youngest. She certainly didn't spend much of the OOTP being calm, kind, or patient. She fought Harry every step of the way to go to the DoM and yet did almost nothing once she got there. For a girl who was touted as being sneaky and a powerful witch throught the book when people talked about her, she certainly never demonstrated it when it counted. No, Ginny has nothing Harry needs. phoenixgod2000 From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 05:20:35 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:20:35 -0000 Subject: "other ways of destroying a man . . ." / The Gleam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126077 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Sage Lattes" wrote: > > *just jumping in* > > Amiable Dorsai wrote: > > A true victory for the forces of light would be to kill not just > > Voldemort, but the *idea* of Voldemort. > > > Didn't Harry try to do that a bit unknowingly to the DEs, when he was > in the DoMysteries (OoTP) holding the prophecy and talking to > LMalfoy, and he told them that Voldemort was a half-blood as well? > > Yeah, and... I never understood why DD had a 'triumphant' look on his > face when HP told him that he was touched by LV in GoFbook. > > > Chys *waves hi* Antosha: :waves back: I'm looking forward to seeing the fallout of Harry's little dig about Tom's parentage in the DoM. When you look at the fact that the core of the DEs--the Malfoy/Black/Lestranges-- were rabid pureblood fanatics before they ever joined up with Tommy-boy, you have to know that it's going to drive a wedge of doubt deep into LV's loyal base. Add to that the fact that Tom let them all get rounded up and tossed in to Azkaban--many of them for the second time--and I think we're going to see a certain amount of grumbling from the ranks. As for that triumphant gleam.... :shudders: That topic has been discussed at great length here in the year or so that I've been around, but I have to say that no one has ever proposed a good, canonical explanation. It's clear that DD knows--or thinks he knows-- something that Harry (and therefore the reader) don't. Deep thinkers have spun theories about there having been some sort of human remnant of Tom Riddle himself (placed in Harry when LV's Death Curse failed all those years ago) having been put back into the soulless LV. Others have theorized that DD is really a demonic, evil puppetmaster, plotting EVERYONE's demise, and this is the final link in the chain. (Not my favorite theory.) Others recently have theorized some sort of kinship between LV and Harry through their muggle sides--so that by taking in Evans blood, LV renders himself vulnerable again. There are many more... (And I apologize for mangling the theories above--they're infinitely more intriguing than I've managed to make them sound.) Alas, I don't think we're going to know much more about that gleam until July 16.... From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 15 05:22:56 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:22:56 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Sage Lattes" wrote: > > > Lupinlore: > > > > > > > How is it clumbsy foreshadowing if he actually gets part of what he > wants, having earned it himself? (I see nothing wrong with that, no > matter WHO is involved. Isn't the point of foreshadowing to show > something that could potentially happen? Just because it's something > the character desires doesn't make it any less of an achievable goal.) Because Ron most definitely HAS NOT earned it. Dumbledore himself admitted that Harry was the one who deserved the badge. Ron receiving it as he did represents extremely poor writing on JKR's part, an attempt to fulfill a foreshadowing that we were told wasn't a foreshadowing (i.e. that the mirror does not predict the future). > > > As well, Draco is a person everyone would listen to. He's probably > academically stable, too. Some people wonder why he got to be > prefect. I say, why not? He probably earned it as much as Ron did. > Because Draco is dangerous, malicious, and tyrannical. That is most definitely NOT a person who has earned a position of authority, or who should be given it even if he has. Lupinlore From AntaresCheryl at aol.com Tue Mar 15 05:34:41 2005 From: AntaresCheryl at aol.com (antarestch) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:34:41 -0000 Subject: OT Posting Guidelines and FAQ Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126079 Is my computer just hiccupping or are the links for "HP for Grownups, Posting Guidelines" and the "FAQ" page that are on the home page no longer working links? When I click on them, I get the message that the site cannot be found. Thanks, Cheryl From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 15 05:48:27 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:48:27 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Serpents, Talking to Animals (was Re:The Falling-Out ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: snip > > I have another question for you, or anyone who's got an idea: why > do > > you suppose Slytherin chose the snake, a long-standing > representation > > of evil, as his mascot, apart from an uncanny similarity to his > > name? We know he was a Parselmouth, and while I'm disinclined to > > think every Parselmouth is inherently evil, it is interesting to me > > that this should be a symbol he became so connected with. It makes > > sense for a Parselmouth to choose a basilisk as a defensive tactic, > > as it's something he or she can control, but why the close ties > with > > serpents in general? > > > > This raises another question about magical (and non-magical) > > animals. Why is it that certain animals (eg. owls, phoenixes, and > > certain cats) are able to understand human language, and able to > > express certain communication to their owners, while others are > not? > > IMO, the biggest drawback to having a rat or a toad as a pet > > (familiar) seems to be a failure to communicate. (To be fair, the > > only rat I know of turned out to be a murdering animagus, and > > Neville's got the only toad I know of and I'm not sure he could > keep > > a slug form running away, no disrespect intended.) Are there any > > witches or wizards who have the gift of speaking to different kinds > > of animals besides snakes? And where, and why, does Parseltongue > > originate from. There must be some practical, natural reason why > > some wizards, albeit a few, need to communicate with this species. > imamommy ========== (inserting Sherrie's quote) Sherrie here: Actually, the snake as a personification of evil is relatively recent - generally dating from the Judeo-Christian cosmology (although the Midgard Serpent isn't exactly GOOD...). Prior to that, the snake was considered a representation of wisdom. Witness the Minoan snake Goddess, the snakes that wrap around the wand of Aesculapius, Quetzelcoatl... Sherrie > Finwitch: > > Now, for one thing snake is not even nearly always associated with > evil. For one, it's the symbol of medication -- of *healing*, and > nothing bad about that, is there? And it's supposed to represent > intellect, fake death etc. as well. imamommy: All right, I can accept other uses of the snake in symbolism, but I'm not sure how the Judeo-Christian application is "recent". It dates back to the creation of the world. This "mythology" if you want to call it that, has been carried through a lot of centuries, yes? What I am really interested in, then, is why Slytherin chose the Snake as his mascot. Theories, anyone? > As for these *few* wizards able to communicate with snakes - well, > it's just a mutation. And Harry saving Justin from that snake shows a > benefit from that. Also, snake venom, eggs, scales, fangs etc. are > (or could be) important potion ingredients, which means that a > parselmouth, being able to gain them, has a benefit! imamommy: I never said there weren't benefits to being able to speak Parseltongue. I thought of it more as a gift, or talent, than a mutation, but whatever. > > As for other species... maybe Dumbledore can speak with Fawkes? Few > wizards can tame a phoenix, after all. And how many (besides > Dumbledore) can speak Mermish? How many wizards can speak > Gibbledegook? > imamommy: Yes, but I think Mermish and Gobbledegook can be learned, like French or Spanish. Few wizards seem to apply themselves to the acquisition of this knowledge, and it doesn't appear to be on the Hogwarts syllabus (or I'm sure Hermione would be taking more lessons), but IMHO, I never thought that Mermish or Gobbledegook were inborn talents, or mutations. Parseltongue seems different. From the evidence we have, either one has the gift or one does not. So my question remains, then, which animals can wizardkind communicate with? And what leads them to choose particular pets, apart from owls and phoenixes and snakes? Also, does Hermione break any rules by having Crookshanks as a pet? > Who knows, though - we may yet see... A toad. Maybe Toadsweat is a > potion ingredient...? At any case, most pets wizards have, are > *magical* somehow... > > Finwitch imamommy giggles at the thought of Neville collecting Toadsweat in a vial. From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 15 05:52:05 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:52:05 -0000 Subject: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126081 Okay, this is just an attempt boil down some of the most recent posts in terms of character development as represented in OOTP. I'm not necessarily arguing for any of these interpretations, I'm just trying to collect everything together for discussion if people so desire. The characters whom people object to are: 1) Dumbledore. Many people found him OOC in the last book. Particularly they found his decisions and actions implausible and sometimes downright unbelievable in light of his previous actions and characterization. 2) Harry. I think all of the people involved in this latest set of discussions agree that his anger was believable. However, he seemed to have curious (and, some suspect, authorally convenient) lapses in smarts, particularly not bothering to open the mirror -- and I would add that it seems contrived that neither Sirius nor Remus mentioned the mirror during his firecall (as in, why aren't you using the mirror, Harry?). 3) Ron. His development seems contrived to some, and perhaps even offensive, since he was elevated to a position he had not earned at the expense of Harry, who had earned it. In particular it seems forced and manipulative as it seems designed to fulfill a foreshadowing we had been assured was not a foreshadowing. That is, we were specifically assured the Mirror of Erised did not foretell the future. If it did foretell the future, even by coincidence, then the whole thing smells of poorly conceived contrivance. Some also object to the fact that Ron's Quidditch triumph, which he certainly HAD earned, took place "off screen," thus once again making the sudden eminence of his character seem hollow and forced. 4) Ginny. Her shift in personality came out of left field, and leaves many people feeling that JKR was playing fast and loose with her character in order to move her overnight into position for some future role, quite possibly as Harry's love interest. 5. Hermione. She seemed shrill and unsympathetic to some people, and many object to the fact that she was always right. This last trait was especially grating, as it leads many to believe she was essentially a clumsy insertion of JKR herself into the text. It also raised doubts that Hermione will undergo any kind of maturation in the next two books. After all, how can she learn much-needed humility and respect for non-intellectual gifts if she's ALWAYS right? I think that about sums it up. Like I said, just trying to pull all the topics together for convenience and further discussion, if anyone so desires. Lupinlore From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 15 06:16:18 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:16:18 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126082 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Sage Lattes" > wrote: > > > > > > > > As well, Draco is a person everyone would listen to. He's probably > > academically stable, too. Some people wonder why he got to be > > prefect. I say, why not? He probably earned it as much as Ron did. > > > > Because Draco is dangerous, malicious, and tyrannical. That is most > definitely NOT a person who has earned a position of authority, or who > should be given it even if he has. > > > Lupinlore No, perhaps Nott. What were the choices for a male Slytherin prefect? Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott are the only one's we know of in fifth year, correct? I can see clear reasons for not choosing Crabbe or Goyle, but why Nott not? The answer may be in how prefects are chosen. IIRC, Tonks said something about her head of house saying she lacked certain qualities, i.e. the ability to behave herself, that caused her not to get the badge. This left me with an impression that the heads of houses submit names for prefects to DD for approval. If my theory is correct, it would make sense that Snape would submit Malfoy's name (as he is constantly praising him for whatever reason), and what justifiable cause could DD have for disallowing it? Yes, I know Draco is a git, but as far as I can tell he's got at least as clean a record as Ron and Harry, and possibly better grades. Also, if Snape's preferencial treatment of Draco is part of his cover, DD may not want to circumvent that strategy. imamommy From siskiou at vcem.com Tue Mar 15 06:24:28 2005 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:24:28 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <813731273.20050314222428@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126083 Hi, Monday, March 14, 2005, 9:52:05 PM, lupinlore wrote: > 3) Ron. His development seems contrived to some, and perhaps even > offensive, since he was elevated to a position he had not earned at > the expense of Harry, who had earned it. In particular it seems > forced and manipulative as it seems designed to fulfill a > foreshadowing we had been assured was not a foreshadowing. That is, > we were specifically assured the Mirror of Erised did not foretell the > future. If it did foretell the future, even by coincidence, then the > whole thing smells of poorly conceived contrivance. Some also object > to the fact that Ron's Quidditch triumph, which he certainly HAD > earned, took place "off screen," thus once again making the sudden > eminence of his character seem hollow and forced. Just a quick comment to the above: even if Ron actually gets his wishes (from age 11) fulfilled in the future, I see this more as a lesson of "Having is not always as good as wishing". Meaning, while he is now a prefect and has won the Quidditch cup, it doesn't quite make him feel as good as he may have thought, and he now knows it comes along with a lot of hard work. Most people don't instantly become good quidditch players (Harry was a lucky exception, but even he has to train with the team). And being a prefect doesn't mean automatic respect from everyone (see Fred and George) and also means a bunch of extra work (and humiliation for Ron, as everyone thought it was Harry who got the badge). Ron has learned a lot this last year, and I hope it will be Hermione's turn for some much needed lessons in HBP (mostly talking about her methods to achieve her goals). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 15 07:03:23 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:03:23 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126084 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > > > No, perhaps Nott. What were the choices for a male Slytherin > prefect? Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott are the only one's we know > of in fifth year, correct? I can see clear reasons for not choosing > Crabbe or Goyle, but why Nott not? > > The answer may be in how prefects are chosen. IIRC, Tonks said > something about her head of house saying she lacked certain > qualities, i.e. the ability to behave herself, that caused her not to > get the badge. This left me with an impression that the heads of > houses submit names for prefects to DD for approval. If my theory is > correct, it would make sense that Snape would submit Malfoy's name > (as he is constantly praising him for whatever reason), and what > justifiable cause could DD have for disallowing it? Yes, I know > Draco is a git, but as far as I can tell he's got at least as clean a > record as Ron and Harry, and possibly better grades. Also, if > Snape's preferencial treatment of Draco is part of his cover, DD may > not want to circumvent that strategy. > > imamommy I think that is a very good possibility. I did not mean to say that there are no good explanations for Draco being a prefect, only that there are perfectly good reasons for people to find it surprising and to think that, on the face of it, it is a very bad idea. I rather lean to your last sentence. Snape may very well have said that Lucius expected Draco to be a prefect, and in order for Snape to maintain his cover he needed to deliver the position. As I said, I think there are scenarios that make sense. What does not make sense is claiming that there are no obvious problems with Draco being made a prefect. Lupinlore P.S. Does anyone else find it a little surprising that the fact of Draco being a prefect ended up making no difference at all in OOTP? Despite Hermione's warning to Harry ("You should be careful, Malfoy is a prefect now, he could make things very difficult for you"), it is Draco as head of the Inquisitorial Squad that ends of being dangerous. Draco as a prefect makes no impression at all. He does not even think to use his prefect authority (whatever that might amount to) on Harry when he confronts him at the end of the book. From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 07:23:09 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:23:09 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126085 "lupinlore" wrote: > Ron most definitely HAS NOT earned it. > Dumbledore himself admitted that Harry > was the one who deserved the badge. > Ron receiving it as he did represents > extremely poor writing on JKR's part Yes, Harry JKR makes it clear that Harry is the one who deserves it most, she also explains why he nevertheless did not get it. Are you saying that in literature good things should always go to the person who deserves it most because otherwise you have "extremely poor writing"? Outside of Harry nobody in school deserved it more than Ron, nobody risked his life as much for the greater good. I also find it rather bizarre to call the most popular author on the planet not just a poor writer but an EXTREAMLY poor writer. Writers who can write verbal pyrotechnics that impress literary snobs (like Harold Bloom) are a dime a dozen, someone who can dream up characters that are enormously popular in every culture on Earth come up once or twice a century. The Order Of The Phoenix, the very book you are complaining about was number one on the French best seller list, the ENGLISH version of The Order Of The Phoenix. Not bad for a extremely poor writer, she must have something going for her. I'm not saying JKR doesn't have her faults, "I think she uses too many adverbs, particularly in dialogue attribution", he said earnestly. Eggplant From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 07:34:11 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:34:11 -0000 Subject: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126086 Antosha: Hmmm... 1) It strikes me that what was out of character was DD's frailty and lapses of judgment. This didn't bother me, even when I wanted to slap the old guy around a bit. 2) Okay, so the mirror thing REALLY rubbed me the wrong way. 3) Ah, but for the vision that Ron saw in the mirror to come true doesn't require that the MIRROR be able to predict the future--we know it can't. Rather, it requires that RON be able to predict the future, a gift he's shown in a number of the books. I'm a big fan of Seer!Ron. That Harry not be made a prefect was a perfectly reasoned bit of poor judgment on DD's part (see #1)--not so much the choice, which I think had merit. No, the way of presenting it to Harry, which was plain stupid, given DD's unwillingness to converse directly with Harry during almost the whole of the book. And I agree: who was more likely to try out for the open Quidditch positions than Ron? 4) Phoenix2000 and I have agreed to disagree on this: I liked the direction that Ginny is going in, and--whether she ends up with Harry romantically or not (and I think she's the current odds-on favorite)--like the way she deals with him. You don't feel that way. That's okay. 5) But Hermione ISN'T always right. Especially when it comes to tactical decisions, she can be absolutely thick, the creation of the DA notwithstanding. Her approach to promoting elfish welfare--SPEW and the guerilla knitting campaign--are just pain doomed, however noble her intentions. And her brilliant plan to get away from Umbridge in the forest? Less than brilliant. She's an extremely bright girl with a fine sense of logic (a talent that she has pointed out is little prized in witches and wizards) and an over-developed work-ethic, but she, too makes mistakes, errors of judgment. From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 07:46:24 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:46:24 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Persecution (was: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126087 > Alla: > > Oh, OK then I will definitely concede that magical folks did feel > threatened by Muggles. I will not concede however that we know the > REASON why they feel threatened by Muggles ( why and how exactly > they were persecuted). I will also not concede that wizards were > burned. > > Betsy: > > > Whether or not *some* magical folk could survive *some* methods of > torture and execution, JKR has given us clear indications that > Muggles did push the WW into hiding. > > Alla: > > I am not sure if it is true. We don't know for sure yet what exactly > pushed WW into hiding. Persecution occurred, yes, but it does not > necessarily follow that wizards went into hiding because of that, > IMO. Although I am too tired to come up with reasonable alternative, > I admit. :) Lindsay: Alla, Betsy, we have seem to distracted from the main point entirely. I originally said: "How are children, or any witch or wizard of the time, who have not been educated, able to know the Charm to keep them from burning at the stake? Or drowning? Or saving themselves from any one of the horrible situations that we saw during the periods of time where people were persecuted for witchcraft? I do think that a fully educated witch or wizard could easily save themselves from a situation of being attacked by Muggles, but the people of the time of the Founders did not have a centralized education before they created Hogwarts. There was no way for anyone to know the magic they would need to freeze the fires, or the Bubble-head charms, or Apparation or any other number of spells. Which is why, I imagine, many of the magical people of the time WERE killed by Muggles, and why it would be justified for Slytherin to have something against them." There were a very many ways that people killed "witches" back in the day, not just burning. They would drown them, starve them, hang them, chop off their head, bleed them dry. They would use all sorts of torture devices to wring confessions out of people, which normally resulted in death or at least disfigurement. If we recall Betsy's quotes, though... Betsy: "They built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." (CoS scholastic paperback ed. p. 150) Betsy: "Muggle persecution of wizards at this time was reaching a pitch hitherto unknown [...] It is not the aim of this work to discuss the dark days that preceded the wizards' retreat into hiding." (FB&WtFT scholastic ed. p. xv) "The right to carry a wand at all times was established by the International Confederation of Wizards in 1692, when Muggle persecution was at its height and the wizards were planning their retreat into hiding." (QTtA scholastic ed. footnote 1. p. 28) Lindsay: Each one of those quotes mentions persecution. Two of the three deliberately indicate that they "retreated" into hiding because of the persecution - the other one just implies it. The third quote states that witches and wizards needed to *protect* themselves from Muggles. There is no arguement to be made: the Wizarding World went into hiding because of the persecution by Muggles. Harry's book does not say anything about witches or wizards and going into hiding. It just mentions the issue of burning. Let's look at the quote from Harry's book (PoA, pg 2): "Non-magic people (more commonly known as Muggles) were particularly afraid of magic in medieval times, but not very good at recognizing it. On the rare occasion that they did catch a real witch or wizard, burning had no effect whatsoever. The witch or wizard would perform a basic Flame Freezing Charm and then pretend to shriek with pain while enjoying a gentle, tickling sensation. Indeed, Wendelin the Weird enjoyed being burned so much that she allowed herself to be caught no less than forty-seven times in various disguises." There are problems with that, though. Some very glaring fallacies with the logos of that entire paragraph. The Muggles caught a real witch or wizard, okay. And that witch or wizard still *allows* themselves to be burned at the stake (Wendelin excluded)? They have to have their wand with them to cast the Flame Freezing Charm, and yet they just stand there and allow it? When people were burned at the stake, they were tied to it, often with their hands *above* their head. How is the witch or wizard going to access their wand in such a position, if they have been helpless up until now? If their hands are tied *behind* their backs, there is still an issue of not only reaching the wand, but the fact that the wand may not even be on them anymore. People were not tied up to be burned at the stake in full clothing. They were stripped, often after the trial or whatever humiliation process that replaced the "trial", if not naked then down to the very shifts of their clothing, and that is saying that they didn't spend a few days locked up first. So saying all this, that they end up casting the Flame Freezing Charm and enjoy the tickling sensation...Muggles aren't exactly that dumb. They are going to realise, after a while, that this person isn't burning. What then? Do they just let the person go? No, they are all the more righteous that this is indeed a witch, and the next thing you know, that witch is in an iron maiden thinking that the stake wasn't such a bad place after all. I'm not saying that there weren't those who escaped burning, there obviously was. But to say that none of were is just silly. That excerpt from Harry's book is full of flaws of logic - or rather, does not give all the information. Perhaps it does not lie, but it is clearly not explaining the situation very well. Alla: > "A rift began to grow between Slytherin and the others. Slytherin > wished to be more selective about the students admitted to Hogwarts. > he believed that magical learning should be kept within all-magical > families. He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing > them to be untrustworthy. After a while, there was a serious > argument on the subject between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and > Slytherin left the school" - CoS, p.130. > Lindsay: Again, I am not trying to sing Slytherin praises, but there is absolutely nothing malicious about what Binns says about Slytherin's views. The sole reason that Binns gives for Slytherin is that he finds Muggles "untrustworthy". He does not say that Muggleborns are less powerful or inferior in any matter to purebloods, he just finds them untrustworthy. To me, there is absolutely nothing malicious with that, and the entire point of this debate was whether or not Slytherin's views were justified. To me, all the indications that JKR has given us about relations between Muggles and the Wizarding World of that time points that indeed he was. We have heard three Sorting songs at this point. Only one of the three mentions that Slytherin wanted children from magical families. The Hat itself seems more concerned with the personality traits of Slytherins, and the one time it has mentioned blood it says "whose ancestry is purest". However, obviously the Hat doesn't even follow its own song (and this does not follow what Binns said, either). On the "Harry Potter and Me", you can see JKR's student list, where we can count not one, but TWO other Slytherins who are half-blood (Tracey Davis (girl) and Millicent Bullstrode), so it is not just Tom Riddle. So until we see a Muggleborn in Slytherin (thus showing that the Hat completely disregards Slytherin's true intentions for his house regarding blood), it is safe to assume that Slytherin only felt that Muggleborns were untrustworthy, not half-bloods. I imagine the Hat just said that to make a good rhyme. =P Alla: > "So Hogwarts worked in harmony > For several happy years, > But then discord crept among us > Feeding on our faults and fears. > The Houses that, like pillars four, > Had once held up the school, > Now turned upon each other and, > Divided sought to rule. > And for a while it seemed the school > Must meet an early end, > What with dueling and with fighting > And with clash of friend on friend > And at last there came a morning > When Old Slytherin departed > And though the fighting then died out > He left us quite downhearted." - OOP, p.205-206. Lindsay: The part that really stands out to ME in that is the "divided sought to rule". It doesn't just say that Slytherin and Gryffindor were the ones arguing, it was *all* of them. And it doesn't mention the Muggleborn issue at all. I don't think we know well enough all the reasons that they were fighting, let alone why Slytherin left. I'm sure the admittance of Muggleborns was just one of the many problems. Either he left and the Founders had nothing to fight amongt each other about (which wouldn't make sense to what the Hat just said), or the remaining Founders learned the errors of their ways, so to speak. They realised that whatever they were arguing about didn't matter so much, because they had just lost their best friend. It's kind of sad, when you think about it that way. And if the Houses can't unite after a thousand years of discord - it seems there is little hope for Hogwarts in the present day. --Lindsay From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Mar 15 07:50:52 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:50:52 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126088 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: imamommy: > No, perhaps Nott. What were the choices for a male Slytherin > prefect? Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott are the only one's we know > of in fifth year, correct? I can see clear reasons for not choosing > Crabbe or Goyle, but why Nott not? Geoff: What about the mysterious and shadowy Blaise Zabini? Was his name just a space filler or will he emerge from the wings? From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 07:52:33 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:52:33 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126089 "lupinlore" wrote: > Does anyone else find it a little > surprising that the fact of Draco > being a prefect ended up making no > difference at all in OOTP? I would be very surprised if anything Draco does makes any long term difference. After fighting dragons and experiencing first hand the horrors of Dementors and Voldemort Draco must seem like nothing more than a irritating mosquito to Harry. > He does not even think to use his > prefect authority (whatever that > might amount to) on Harry when he > confronts him at the end of the book. At the end of the book what on earth could Draco do with his "prefect authority" that would intimidate Harry in the slightest? Draco might not be a genius but he's smart enough to know Harry hopelessly outmatched him, and considering Harry's state of mind at the time Draco was very lucky Snape showed up when he did. If Draco was thinking of detention or deducting house points Harry was thinking of murder. Eggplant From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 08:03:34 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:03:34 -0000 Subject: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four In-Reply-To: <000f01c528ee$256f3620$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > Steve wrote: > >Muggle-borns could be the children of peasant, farmers, craftsmen, > >scribes, landlords, businessmen, landed gentry, or aristocrats. ... > Ffred: > > ... unless we assume that there isn't a match between the makeup > of the general population and the makeup of the Muggleborns, the > proportion who _weren't_ peasants would have been pretty small. > > ...edited... > > Probably, though the vernacular languages were being written well > before this time. The Welsh ... wrote ... back in the 6th century, > .... > >bboyminn: > > >...read, write, and do basic arithmetic would be highly educated. > > ... this would be ... religious order ..., or ...of wealth > >and/or nobility. > Ffred continues: > > ... In my own version of WW history, the invention of writing was > one of the biggest spurs to the development of wizardry, ... > > > bboyminn: > > > >That's why I say that everything was done by Master/Apprentice > >relationships. ... > Ffred: > > ... Possibly also to say that there were both High and Low Wizards: > the High ones being the aristocracy with their own castles/estates, > the Low ones being the village wizards and witches doing the work of > healers and charmers. Each in their own way would then pick up > on any children with magical potential and train them up as best > they could. > bboyminn: All very excellent points Ffred. I think we are very much in sync now. I wasn't trying to imply anything other than both wizards and muggle-borns would reflect a cross-section of the population. There would be no reason for magic-born to be predominantly aristocratic and muggle-borns to be predominantly peasants. Although, I amend that slightly by saying that I think magic-born are probably slightly better off than muggle-borns. I base that on the idea that magic-borns have a little extra power they can use to gain advantage in life. I also agree with your assessment of the general population make-up; huge peasant class, very small middle-class, and small upper-class. Part of the point I was trying to make in the occupations I suggested, is that there would indeed be /some/ middle-class. Among the middle class I would count shopkeepers, landowners, craftsmen, artisan, etc.... I know at this primitive time in history, this middle class would have been very small, but I'm confident they would exist. Keep in mind that's a best guess American perspective. I do agree that writing in vernacular languages is very old, but I'm uncertain about the number of people who would be able to read and write in those languages. I suspect they would be very localized, and the number of educated people within that small group would be substantially smaller. So, I agree the invention of writing, even if it was in a local dialect and the number of educated people small, would be a tremendous advancement for wizards. Also, a most excellent point regarding the High and Low wizards. I think that version of speculative history is extremely likely. > > bboyminn: > > > >Which brings us to the Basilisk. Just as I cautioned against > > believing what people are now say about Salazar, I again caution > > against accepting /legend-base/ opinions of what the Basilisk was > > for. .... > > > Ffred: > > I remember some posts a long while ago ...that argued cogently that > the Basilisk was never conclusively described as attacking Harry, > its actions could equally well be described as protecting him. > > Cheers > > Ffred bboyminn: In another post I pointed out that given all it's many ways to kill, that the Basilisk was basically a killing machine. But at the same time, being a snake, I don't think it was very aggressive or vicious. Snakes, for the most part, do nothing but eat and sleep; they really live very boring lives. Any historical accounts of Basilisk killing spree, were probably events in which the Basilisk preceive itself to be in danger and acted defensively, or just killed a bunch of people by accident. I really don't see the Basilisk as an animal that goes on muggle killing sprees. In CoS we see the Basilisk apparently acting with much forethought and conscious intent, but I don't believe that forethought or intent on the part of the Basilisk were there. The Basilisk was specifically following orders from Tom Riddle, and if left to it's own devices, would have been content to mind it's own business and eat small mamals that came wandering by. Back in Salazar's day, it would have done the same thing. Although, as I have said in another posts, I think Salazar more likely would have ordered the Basilisk to repell a muggle attack on the castle. I think the idea of the Basilisk killing muggle-born students, is a later day perversion of Salazar's distrust of muggles. That's not Salazar's idea, but an irrational exaggeration by Tom Riddle. I say all this, to re-enforce my point that we really don't know what Salazar said, believed, or intended. All we know is what other people with very self-serving agendas are saying about Salazar many many many many years after the fact. Again, you made many excellent points. I really love this kind of specualtive history, and what I call Logical Expansion of the Wizard World. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboymninn From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 15 08:52:29 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:52:29 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant9998" wrote: > The Order Of The Phoenix, the very book you are > complaining about was number one on the French best seller list, the > ENGLISH version of The Order Of The Phoenix. Not bad for a extremely > poor writer, she must have something going for her. Good point. . Did I say she had nothing going for her? To use a historical example, when Shakespeare (who was easily the wealthiest and most popular playwright of his day) died it was said he had never blotted out a single line of his writing. To which Ben Jonson replied, "Would that he had blotted out a thousand, so numerous are his mistakes!" Yet the same Ben Jonson was well known to have adored both Shakespeare and the general body of Shakespeare's work, and to have said "He was a man not of an age, but for all time." Now, I'm not going to go that far in praising JKR, because I really don't think she's THAT good. However, I enjoyed PS/SS very much, and CoS only slightly less. I thought PoA was brilliant, and GoF I absolutely adored. OOTP, on the other hand, I found to be a disappointing abomination, rife with severe mistakes and, yes, poor writing, sometimes lapsing into extremely poor writing. But that isn't surprising. Shakespeare wrote "Troilus and Cressida" as well as "Romeo and Juliet" and "Cymbeline" as well as "King Lear." "Hamlet" is a classic but as for "Timon of Athens," well, there's a reason it's almost never read, much less produced. When you get right down to it, JKR can write whatever she wants, for whatever reason she wants, using whatever style she wants, at whatever length she wants, without regard to what anyone else in the entire universe thinks or desires. That is the right and privilege of a writer. Some people will love it. Some people will hate it. Some will have a reaction somewhere in the middle. All will have their reasons for their love/hate of a given work by a given author, and those reasons may or may not be shared by anyone else. The right and privilege of a reader is to love or hate anything for any reason whatsoever, without regard to the opinions of anyone else in the entire cosmos. Another right and privilege of a reader is to buy anything they wish with or without regard to anyone else's opinion. So, who is correct about OOTP? Is it a brilliant piece of literature taking the series into more mature realms? Is it a deeply flawed and disappointing mess that rambles meaninglessly from one implausible and sometimes offensive plot twist to another until finally ending with a few useful revelations garnished around an embarassingly clumsy maguffin in the form of an obvious prophecy? Is it a book of mixed effectiveness that combines very good and very bad elements? I don't know any good way to tell. I don't even know that there is, objectively, a right answer unless God Himself has an opinion -- and if he does he ain't about to share it with me or anyone else. I do know what my opinions are and my reasons for those opinions, which I BELIEVE to be correct, regardless of their popularity or lack thereof. The best I can do is remain loyal to the opinions I believe to be the right ones, as to do anything else would make me a hypocrite. So, yes, I do think the Prefect subplot was clumsy and contrived. And that many of the characters acted in unbelievable ways. And that much of Dumbledore's speech at the end of the book was poorly written. I have given my reasons for those opinions, and many others, and I stand firmly by them. Lupinlore From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 09:06:52 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:06:52 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. - Clumsy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Sage Lattes" > wrote: > > > > > > Lupinlore: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it clumbsy foreshadowing if he actually gets part of what > > he wants, having earned it himself? (... Isn't the point of > > foreshadowing to show something that could potentially happen? > > Just because it's something the character desires doesn't make it > > any less of an achievable goal.) > Lupinlore: > > Because Ron most definitely HAS NOT earned it. Dumbledore himself > admitted that Harry was the one who deserved the badge. Ron > receiving it as he did represents extremely poor writing on JKR's > part,... > > ...edited.. > > Lupinlore bboyminn: I will agree with you that some of the writing was a little clumsy. But it was not Ron getting the Prefect Badge that was clumsy but the final explanation of why he got it. And in saying that, I don't mean the reason, but the way the final explanation was written. First, if not Harry, then who? No one other than Ron has distinguished himself in any way. So, all things weighed, Harry had way too much on his plate already, that only leaves Ron. So, Ron got it. Seems very logical to me. In addition, not unexpected. Many of us have been predicting for a long long time, that as the story went on, Ron would start to distinguish himself; he would start to stand on his own, and be measured by his own achievements. Also note that Ron did not see himself as Prefect, he saw himself as Headboy, and we already know you don't need to be Prefect to become Headboy. True, it's helps, but it's not required. What Ron saw in the Mirror was achievement, a desire to distinguish himself, to be the equal or better of his brother. That's a very reasonable desire. And, Ron has distinguished himself all through the story, although, I don't think he completely realizes that history will remember him far above and beyond any of his brothers. Ron see his achievement by the only means of measurement he has available to him at the time, so I don't think it was so much the specific things he saw that he wanted, it was to achieve and stand-out. Now to the /clumsiness/. The phrase (something to the effect of), '...enough to be getting on with...' was used just a little too often for my taste. It may be a very common 'Britishism', but to my American ears, once was enough, but every use after that was jarring. And to use it to explain a very critical point in the story, why Harry wasn't Prefect, was weak. Especially weak, as I have noted, because the phrase had already been used. I buy Ron as Prefect, I really liked the idea. I buy the general explanation; makes sense to me, but the way it was written was weak. As long as we are on over-used phrases, someone turning their head suddenly and 'cricking' their neck one time is interesting, but more than that is weak. As far as Ron getting on the Quidditch team, I've been predicting that for years. I even predicted he would be Keeper. In addition, I have been predicting that Ron will eventually become Team Captain (note- /eventually/), but I don't base that on the Mirror. I see that as part of the natural dynamics of the story, and the natural dynamics of Harry and Ron, all independant of what Ron saw in the Mirror. For what it's worth, unless Harry is dead, I don't think Ron will be Headboy. But he will still have, in the end, a very outstanding career at Hogwarts, history-making outstanding. As long as we are on the subject of surprises, I have no problem with Ginny's developement, because, in my own mind, I always picture her as a much stronger character than she was being made to appear. I also love the character that developed; smart, brave, daring, strong, outspoken, stubborn--a Weasley to the very core. Coming from her family, how could she be anything other than what she is? So, I agree parts of the story were clumsy, but not in the storyline or character development, I see it in the simple basic mechanics of writing. Personally, I think some of the copy editors should have called JKR on those repetitive phrases. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 15 09:41:00 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:41:00 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. - Clumsy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126093 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > bboyminn: > > I will agree with you that some of the writing was a little clumsy. > But it was not Ron getting the Prefect Badge that was clumsy but the > final explanation of why he got it. And in saying that, I don't mean > the reason, but the way the final explanation was written. You make a good point, Steve. The clumsiness of the event may well relate to the mechanics of the writing. > > Now to the /clumsiness/. The phrase (something to the effect of), > '...enough to be getting on with...' was used just a little too often > for my taste. It may be a very common 'Britishism', but to my American > ears, once was enough, but every use after that was jarring. And to > use it to explain a very critical point in the story, why Harry wasn't > Prefect, was weak. Especially weak, as I have noted, because the > phrase had already been used. I expect this is one of those cultural things. I also am an American and found the "...enough to be getting on with..." to be a curiously colorless expression, conveying little sense of the immensity of the weight on Harry's shoulders. But, Dumbledore is British, after all, and the expression may well convey something different to British readers. I would be interested to hear about it, if it does. > > For what it's worth, unless Harry is dead, I don't think Ron will be > Headboy. But he will still have, in the end, a very outstanding career > at Hogwarts, history-making outstanding. > Well, as I've said in another post, how contrived the whole development of Ron seems when all is said and done will depend a lot on what happens in the next two books. If Ron does have an outstanding career without his vision in the Mirror coming literally true, then it will not seem nearly as contrived as it will should he actually become Quidditch Captain AND Head Boy AND winner of the Quidditch Cup. > > So, I agree parts of the story were clumsy, but not in the storyline > or character development, I see it in the simple basic mechanics of > writing. Personally, I think some of the copy editors should have > called JKR on those repetitive phrases. > Unfortunately, JKR is so successful now as to be editor proof. I don't mean that she has become arrogant or anything of that nature. Rather, with so much money riding on getting her books out, I am sure the executives at her publishers have very little patience with editors who take more than a minimal amount of time processing her manuscripts. I suspect Scholastic and Bloomsbury put tremendous pressure on their editorial staffs to give JKR's submissions a couple of run-throughs for spelling and grammar and then GET THE THING OUT. I wonder how much of the problems with OOTP could have been avoided if the editors had had the freedom to treat her manuscript with the same rigor they would have shown an unknown author's. Lupinlore From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Tue Mar 15 10:27:39 2005 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:27:39 -0000 Subject: The OOTP Gripe List v5 432 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126094 Lupinlore wrote: (snip) 2. Harry. I think all of the people involved in this latest set of discussions agree that his anger was believable. However, he seemed to have curious (and, some suspect, authorally convenient) lapses in smarts, particularly not bothering to open the mirror -- and I would add that it seems contrived that neither Sirius nor Remus mentioned the mirror during his firecall (as in, why aren't you using the mirror, Harry?). Leah: The mirror really bugged me on first reading OOTP. It seemed such a massive plot hole. We've now had the benefit of JKR's comment (in the Edinburgh Festival chat I believe) when she said words to the effect that the mirror would not have been as helpful as we might have thought. There are also three textual clues to the mirror's use. One is that James and Sirius used the mirrors to communicate during detention. Detention is normally supervised, so how were they managing to chat away with these devices? The second is Sirius' brief explanation that Harry can use the mirror if Snape is giving him a hard time, and the third is Sirius' note explaining that Harry would appear in Sirius' mirror and Sirius could talk in Harry's. So one possible explanation is that(i)these are not walkie-talkie dvices, but that communication is by another means, such as words appearing on the surface of the mirror. (ii)Harry may not be able to talk/write; he just appears while Sirius communicates (iii) Sirius has told him to use the mirror if there are problems with Snape, so an appearance by Harry in the mirror would indicate just that. Harry would not have been able to communicate his problems about James, so no need to remind him of the mirror. If Harry had used the mirror after the vision, he would have got some sort of reply from Sirius, but might have believed this to be a trick, since it would not have been the conversation Harry wished for. Furrther on the lack of reminders from Remus and James over the 'worst memory' conversation is: Remus did not know about the mirrors/ Sirius (a) did not want Remus to know (why?) (b) forgets in his involvement with telling Harry about James (c)knows the mirror would not work in these circumstances Lupinlore: 3) Ron. His development seems contrived to some, and perhaps even offensive, since he was elevated to a position he had not earned at the expense of Harry, who had earned it. In particular it seems forced and manipulative as it seems designed to fulfill a foreshadowing we had been assured was not a foreshadowing. That is, we were specifically assured the Mirror of Erised did not foretell the future. If it did foretell the future, even by coincidence, then the whole thing smells of poorly conceived contrivance. Some also object to the fact that Ron's Quidditch triumph, which he certainly HAD earned, took place "off screen," thus once again making the sudden eminence of his character seem hollow and forced. Leah: Ron becoming a prefect did not bother me. He has spent sixteen years living in his brother's various shadows, and five as Harry's faithful sidekick. DD was right to give him a chance to do something on his own. As to this being a step on the path to headboyship, it ain't necesarily so. Being a prefect does not seem a necessary step to that position (eg James). Personally, I rather hope 'new-look' Neville gets the job. As you say, Ron has worked at and earned his Quidditch triumph. If he fulfills a particular desire through his own efforts then I don't think that negates what DD has told us about the Mirror of Erised. 'off-screen' didn't bother me in terms of story telling but that it might foreshadow further difficulties with the trio. Lupinlore: 4) Ginny. Her shift in personality came out of left field, and leaves many people feeling that JKR was playing fast and loose with her character in order to move her overnight into position for some future role, quite possibly as Harry's love interest. Leah: Her first appearance in COS, was not, her brothers tell us, 'normal' Ginny. She's dealing with crushes, and the possible onset of adolescence. Since then she's been possessed by VM, which must have been in some way a character forming experience. She's had a couple of years to sort all of that out, and now she's back. Leah From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 06:47:59 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:47:59 -0000 Subject: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126095 I absolutely love OOTP and respectfully disagree with Lupinlore's list of "gripes" in post no. 126081. Sorry. :( >1. Dumbledore. I haven't noticed anyone remembering that one of the reason's DD gave for his actions, was his belief that VV would be spying on him through Harry. While I hated the way he abandoned Harry, I can sort of understand his actions when this is kept in mind. Besides, this method helps us as readers realize that DD is not perfect and that he must eventually step back and allow Harry to do his stuff. >2. Harry. The main reason Harry set the mirror aside and immediately put it out of his mind was he didn't want to complain to Sirius and get Sirius upset to the point he would do something dangerous. Harry was trying to protect Sirius and decided immediately he wouldn't use the mirror no matter how badly he (Harry) needed help. So he just forgot about it. >3. Ron I think Ron was made prefect as an honor to Harry. If DD didn't want to put more burdens on Harry, the next best thing would be to give the honor to Harry's best friend. I think Ron has earned the Prefect badge more than any of the other Gryffindors. >4. Ginny I think the image of Ginny that was distorted was our original image. I think Ginny was always this way, but in the beginning she was so shy because she was smitten by Harry. Growing up in a house full of older brothers, you would have to have some back bone or else. And believe me, young ladies can act incredibly stupid when they are smitten. >5. Hermione I don't know, she is obnoxious. But her part is essential. I guess we'll have to wait and see. Just my view. OOTP was my very favorite so far. I loved Harry's moods and felt so for him. I hated DD at first, but now my opinion has been softening, only he better take Harry under his wing in HBP or I don't know if I will be able to forgive him. Bonnie. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Mar 15 10:56:32 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:56:32 -0000 Subject: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126096 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > 1) Dumbledore. Many people found him OOC in the last book. > Particularly they found his decisions and actions implausible and > sometimes downright unbelievable in light of his previous actions and > characterization. Hickengruendler: But which action exactly? The only thing I found unbelievable during my first reading, was, that he didn't spoke to Harry. But this was explained in the end when he said, that he feared, that Voldie would use Harry to spy on him. I found this explanation believable. I think it was a mistake from Dumbledore, but I can understand why he did what he did, and I did not find it out of character. > > 2) Harry. I think all of the people involved in this latest set of > discussions agree that his anger was believable. However, he seemed > to have curious (and, some suspect, authorally convenient) lapses in > smarts, particularly not bothering to open the mirror -- and I would > add that it seems contrived that neither Sirius nor Remus mentioned > the mirror during his firecall (as in, why aren't you using the > mirror, Harry?). Hickengruendler: Yes, he had curious lapses in smarts. That's because he's a boy who acts before he thinks. I think he had these lapses of smarts in all the books (see GoF, where he honestly thought, that the hostages during the second task were in real danger, or in CoS, when he and Ron took Lockhart of all teachers to go with them in the chamber). OotP however, was the first book, in which Harry's behaviour had some real consequences. However, to be fair, Sirius gave Harry the present half a year earlier, and than Harry forgot it. It's not a surprise, that he didn't think of it at such a moment, where he couldn't think clearly for obvious reasons. Also, Harry was interrupted during his conversation with Remus and Sirius. They talked about the pensieve scene, and before Sirius could add anything else, Harry heard Filch going to the office. > > 3) Ron. His development seems contrived to some, and perhaps even > offensive, since he was elevated to a position he had not earned at > the expense of Harry, who had earned it. In particular it seems > forced and manipulative as it seems designed to fulfill a > foreshadowing we had been assured was not a foreshadowing. That is, > we were specifically assured the Mirror of Erised did not foretell the > future. If it did foretell the future, even by coincidence, then the > whole thing smells of poorly conceived contrivance. Some also object > to the fact that Ron's Quidditch triumph, which he certainly HAD > earned, took place "off screen," thus once again making the sudden > eminence of his character seem hollow and forced. Hickengruendler: I agree with you, that if Ron really gets exactly what he sees in the mirror, it would be a unbelievable and not really satisfying. However, I think we just have to wait to make a judgement about this. So far, he got neither, except winning the Quidditch Cup, what he deserved. But I do think he'll be the Quidditch captain, but not the headboy (coughErnieMacMillancough). > > 4) Ginny. Her shift in personality came out of left field, and leaves > many people feeling that JKR was playing fast and loose with her > character in order to move her overnight into position for some future > role, quite possibly as Harry's love interest. Hickengruendler: I agree with those who critisize Ginny's development. I think Ginny's development was the most problematic to write, since it makes complete sense, that she acted differently around Harry than normally, because of the crush. But I still found it jarring and mostly unsatisfying. > > 5. Hermione. She seemed shrill and unsympathetic to some people, and > many object to the fact that she was always right. This last trait > was especially grating, as it leads many to believe she was > essentially a clumsy insertion of JKR herself into the text. > so desires. > Hickengruendler: I really think people should have a bit more trust in JKR. I think she knows very well, where Hermione's flaws lie. She even mentioned this, when she said, that Luna was the anti Hermione. Hickengruendler From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Tue Mar 15 12:44:37 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:44:37 -0000 Subject: "other ways of destroying a man . . ." / The Gleam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126097 antosha wrote: > As for that triumphant gleam.... :shudders: That topic has been discussed at great length here in the year or so that I've been around, but I have to say that no one has ever > proposed a good, canonical explanation. It's clear that DD knows-- or thinks he knows-- something that Harry (and therefore the reader) don't. Deep thinkers have spun theories about there having been some sort of human remnant of Tom Riddle himself (placed in Harry when LV's Death Curse failed all those years ago) having been put back into the soulless LV. Others have theorized that DD is really a demonic, evil puppetmaster, plotting EVERYONE's demise, and this is the final link in the chain. (Not my favorite theory.) Others > recently have theorized some sort of kinship between LV and Harry through their muggle sides--so that by taking in Evans blood, LV renders himself vulnerable again. There are many more... (And I apologize for mangling the theories above--they're infinitely more > intriguing than I've managed to make them sound.) > > Alas, I don't think we're going to know much more about that gleam until July 16.... How about simply (and, alas, boringly) that: Harry is protected when he is where his mother's blood dwells. Harry, Petunia and Dudley are the only living people who share this blood. Oh, but now Voldy does too... Where's he dwelling these days? If Harry ever ends up at DE HQ, he may be protected from harm there too. It would really irritate Voldy, wouldn't it? Actually it would really irritate me, too; another Deus ex machina saving our hero in his darkest hour. But I can't think of anything else. Dungrollin From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 12:48:42 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:48:42 -0000 Subject: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126098 lupinlore wrote: > 1) Dumbledore. Many people found him OOC in the last book. > Particularly they found his decisions and actions implausible and > sometimes downright unbelievable in light of his previous actions and > characterization. Tammy: I think my biggest objection to Dumbledore in OOTP is that he's treating Harry too much like a child. I firmly believe in Puppetmaster!Dumbledore pre-OOTP and OOTP breaks that a little too much. He goes from manipulating Harry (and co.) to find the Sorcerer's Stone, to enter the Chamber, to find out about Remus and Sirius, to stay in the Triward Tournament, to suddenly not wanting Harry to be in danger? Hello? Dumbledore's the one who PUT Harry in danger in every pre-OOTP book. > lupinlore wrote: > 2) Harry. I think all of the people involved in this latest set of > discussions agree that his anger was believable. However, he seemed > to have curious (and, some suspect, authorally convenient) lapses in > smarts, particularly not bothering to open the mirror -- and I would > add that it seems contrived that neither Sirius nor Remus mentioned > the mirror during his firecall (as in, why aren't you using the > mirror, Harry?). Tammy: Harry's always been arrogant, rash, and lacking in judgement. As Hermione pointed out, he has a bit of a "saving people thing" that has gone to his head. He's been "right" up until OOTP, so why not continue this trend? Okay, so it backfired and got his beloved godfather killed. So now he'll finally learn his lesson about thinking before you act - and maybe even listening to his friends. If you ask me, it's about time Harry got that lesson. > lupinlore wrote: > 4) Ginny. Her shift in personality came out of left field, and leaves > many people feeling that JKR was playing fast and loose with her > character in order to move her overnight into position for some future > role, quite possibly as Harry's love interest. Tammy: Ginny's development HAD to happen off-screen. Ginny's stumbling block, personality-wise, has been Harry up to now. She had a huge crush on him. Perhaps some people are simply too far from their first crush to remember the mind-numbing effect that it has on a person. She's tongue-tied and can't even think straight when Harry's around. As the books are from Harry's POV, we're not going to see Ginny actually get over that. Girls generally mature a lot from 12 - 14, and that's about the age range that both Hermione and Ginny went through their sudden change. Beyond that, boys are dim and don't notice a thing when it comes to girls at that age. Ginny's overnight change was perfectly understandable and necessary. > lupinlore wrote: > 5. Hermione. She seemed shrill and unsympathetic to some people, and > many object to the fact that she was always right. This last trait > was especially grating, as it leads many to believe she was > essentially a clumsy insertion of JKR herself into the text. It also > raised doubts that Hermione will undergo any kind of maturation in the > next two books. After all, how can she learn much-needed humility and > respect for non-intellectual gifts if she's ALWAYS right? > Tammy: I think the Centaur incident will have taught Hermione some much needed lessons, at least I'm hoping so. Hermione is who she is. She's been the same obnoxious always-right character since the beginning. JKR's gotta change that soon, or it's going to seem just too fake. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 12:58:57 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 04:58:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050315125857.7776.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126099 --- phoenixgod2000 wrote: > this is the same man who *encouraged* Harry to travel back in time, > in a dangerous stunt that could wipe him from existence, a man who > *rewarded* Harry for his quick actions in books one and two instead > of punish him because of the danger, and then, in book four saw > Harry outwit a dragon, survive a duel with his nemesis, and do > other countlessly brave things. Then, all of a sudden, in the fifth > book he wants to shield Harry because he cares too much? No, I just > don't buy it. All very true and the main reason why Dumbledore's book-end chat with Harry in OOTP was a major "Huh?" moment for me. Especially after letting his name stand for the Triwizard Tournament. Dumbledore knew that the only reason someone put his name in there was for not-Harry-healthy reasons and yet he basically let Harry be a decoy for a year. Major, major character dislocation here. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 15 13:00:55 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:00:55 -0000 Subject: Wizard Persecution (was: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126100 Valky: But JKR has pointed this out to be relatively laughable a situation in Harrys History of Magic essay on Witch burning.< Lindsay: How are children, or any witch or wizard of the time, who have not been educated, able to know the Charm to keep them from burning at the stake?< Alla: I agree with Valky, because for now that is the only canon we have...< Betsy: Except that it's not. Actually, canon points overwhelmingly to Wizard persecution being a very real threat. The first quote is from Professor Binns, the second from Newt Scamander and the third from Kennilworthy Whisp. All three gentlemen are presented by JKR as scholars; two of them are historians outright. To dismiss their wording and the implications of their statements would be, IMO, a mistake. Valky now: Fair assumptions all Betsy, and I'd like to concede and allow them to be proof that the book Harry was studying from was erroneous rot, however..... ;-P It was Harry's prescribed text for History of Magic, set by Professor Binns. Without assuming that Binnsy has read it cover to cover and nitpicked the fine detail, personally (he certainly has had plenty of time on his hands for doing so..) we can yet find that some creedence to it's authority or author would rather likely be paid by Professor Binns or else why would he choose it. Now, with that in mind it begs exactly what kind of an expert on History Professor Binns really is. In a sense he is espousing two contradictory versions of it by the reasoning you have given above. So either he's not spent a whole lot of time on history throughout his life (and death) or he has reason to believe that both versions are relatively true to fact. I would like to try on option B just for the fit. One thing I think we can safely assume is that wizard persecution existed in Salazar's time, I have never tried to dismiss this argument. What I question is that to what degree were Muggle methods of battle a serious and mortal danger to Hogwarts via the admission of Muggle children. In other words, did Salazar have the situation out of proportion or should the distrust of Muggles really have been escalated thus far? A simple argument to that Salazar's behaviour *was* irrational, is that History tells of the inability of Muggles to "kill" wizards by burning, the most common practise and hence a reason to believe that the persecution was *relatively* laughable. The other argument in this case is that Salazar transposed his distrust onto children, the weakest of all, as Lindsay has pointed out above so again Salazar's position continues to be quite ironic seeing as he was one of the "Most Powerful" wizards of the age and pretty hilarious, to boot. Although I agree with the most of what you say Betsy, the problem is that my statement above belongs in this context, and doesn't represent my position without it. In that way, Alla is correct that this is the only canon we have to gauge the rational level of fear a wizard such as Salazar would be justifiably working from, and no matter how you look at it, he doesn't fit under the bar. Going from there, I'd like to make a further point, that to me feels important in this discussion, about my position on Salazar. Now here's the thing. Tom used possession to preserve his memory in a *very secret* diary. Dumbledore *couldn't* work out how this was done, he's got the headmaster from Tom's time hanging on his wall and if he consulted him about what Tom was *taught* at school to deduce how it was being done and drew a blank where does that leave 16 year old Tom with knowledge of an obscure art even a mystery to DD. 16 year old Tom had possession magic at his disposal after exploring the COS, a kind of Magic that DD is not familiar with, a kind of magic that JKR saw fit to label as "very secret". A kind of magic fit to be stowed in a Chamber of *Secrets*? Why not. Dark Magic? It is. Just to be clear I don't think that Godric and Salazar being friends is any proof at all that Salazar was not into Dark Magic. The ontology of the founders era is minus the Evil Overlord threatening all of WizardKind with Dark Arts and plus the persecution by muggles. Hence Dark Arts was *not* the enemy leaving Godric and Salazar freely able to be on friendly terms. Just as I believe Snape and James may have been in a time other than VWI. Valky From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Mar 15 13:06:01 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:06:01 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "other ways of destroying a man . . ." / The Gleam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42377869.24878.1633DB6@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 126101 On 15 Mar 2005 at 12:44, dungrollin wrote: > How about simply (and, alas, boringly) that: > Harry is protected when he is where his mother's blood dwells. > Harry, Petunia and Dudley are the only living people who share this > blood. Shaun: Actually, the 'gleam' has always seemed rather straightforward to me - I don't know if I'm right, but I've never really had any doubt about what it meant. "'Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realize that love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign... to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever. It is in your very skin. Quirrell, full of hatred, greed, and ambition, sharing his soul with Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason. It was agony to touch a person marked by something so good.'" (PS, p.216). It's quite clear and straightforward - Voldemort *cannot* understand love. And so it is agony for him to touch Harry. "'He said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's,' Harry told Dumbledore. "He said the protection my - my mother left in me - he'd have it too. And he was right - he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face.' For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second. Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him. 'Very well,' he said, sitting down again. 'Voldemort has overcome that particular barrier. Harry, continue, please.'" (GoF - no page number as I am going off quote list). Voldemort seeks to take Harry's protection - and he succeeds. But because we know that that protection was love, and we know the Voldemort could not stand to touch Harry because love flowed through his veins - it seems to me obvious that Voldemort has taken on more than he expected. Voldemort is now capable of comprehending love. He's probably not aware of it - and I'm sure he would disdain it. But now he understands it - and that means that it can be used to fight him. And that is the reason for the gleam - because Dumbledore now knows that something about Voldemort has changed. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 15 13:15:03 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:15:03 -0000 Subject: "other ways of destroying a man . . ." / The Gleam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" wrote: > How about simply (and, alas, boringly) that: > Harry is protected when he is where his mother's blood dwells. > Harry, Petunia and Dudley are the only living people who share this > blood. > Oh, but now Voldy does too... > Where's he dwelling these days? > If Harry ever ends up at DE HQ, he may be protected from harm there > too. > > It would really irritate Voldy, wouldn't it? Actually it would > really irritate me, too; another Deus ex machina saving our hero in > his darkest hour. But I can't think of anything else. > > Dungrollin Valky: HAHA! I don't think this is boring at all Dung, it's actually rather intriguing. The thing is I don't think that Harry's Mothers blood 'dwells' in DE HQ, but rather IN Voldemort himself.. So if Voldemort transfigures into a giant Snake and eats Harry, does he get indigestion... :D From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 13:23:23 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:23:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432 In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050315132323.67260.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126103 --- lupinlore wrote: > > 3) Ron. His development seems contrived to some, and perhaps even > offensive, since he was elevated to a position he had not earned at > the expense of Harry, who had earned it. In particular it seems > forced and manipulative as it seems designed to fulfill a > foreshadowing we had been assured was not a foreshadowing. That > is, we were specifically assured the Mirror of Erised did not > foretell the future. If it did foretell the future, even by > coincidence, then the > whole thing smells of poorly conceived contrivance. Some also > object > to the fact that Ron's Quidditch triumph, which he certainly HAD > earned, took place "off screen," thus once again making the sudden > eminence of his character seem hollow and forced. I too wish we'd seen Ron's quidditch triumph if only because we would then have avoided the "pleasure" of meeting Grawp. Although the dawning realization of Harry and Hermoine of the new lyrics to THAT song was a charming moment too and I'm glad Ron was appreciated by the entire House and not just by Harry and Hermione. While the Mirror of Erised does not tell the future, it does reflect someone's strongest desires. Sometimes those desires are not possible - Harry will never meet his parents because they're dead. But Ron's desire was to outshine his brothers and there are limited opportunities for a student to do that, and I don't think it unreasonable that Ron achieve a couple of them (I doubt that he'll be captain and I can't see him as Head Boy over Ernie MacMillan). Part of Ron's problem is that he is more like Percy than the other Weasleys and he's spent four and a half books trying to be like the twins instead. The twins' ideas of what is acceptable and cool have squashed his personal ambitions for years and not until they are gone does Ron really come into his own. (Ginny, on the other hand, is the Weasley most like the twins.) So I don't really have a problem with Ron's development because it was more of an internal realization on his part that he wasn't the third twin and that he had just as much right to achieve his own ambitions in his own way without anyone putting him down about it. And I think Harry didn't deserve to be Prefect either. Neville did. > 5. Hermione. She seemed shrill and unsympathetic to some people, > and > many object to the fact that she was always right. This last trait > was especially grating, as it leads many to believe she was > essentially a clumsy insertion of JKR herself into the text. It > also > raised doubts that Hermione will undergo any kind of maturation in > the > next two books. After all, how can she learn much-needed humility > and respect for non-intellectual gifts if she's ALWAYS right? She never seemed shrill to me. And she was often right - if Ron and Harry want her to be a little more humble or less bossy then they might try doing their own damn homework for a change so she doesn't feel she has to be the perfect one who's carrying the load for all of them. And I think she did mature - she was noticeably pleasanter to Luna at the end of the book than she was at the beginning and it wasn't because she saw a photo of a crumple-horned snorkack. Hermione rocks - she's Harry's biggest asset (his walking brain) and her only blind spot isn't SPEW, it's that she doesn't realize that she could be a target in her own right. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Tue Mar 15 13:55:14 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:55:14 -0000 Subject: "Little Miss Perfect" (Was Re: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126104 I think the posters are incorrect about Hermione always being right in OOTP. She has been consistently my favorite character throughout the five books, but in OOTP she made some big mistakes. Here are five instances of "Little Miss Perfect," as that cow Rita Skeeter called her, screwing up in OOTP. (1) Hermione's Guerrilla Hat Campaign. How do the House Elves get freed? It cannot be by merely touching clothing. The Hogwarts students get their clothing cleaned, presumably by the House Elves. In Book 1 chapter 5 when Harry receives his letter from Hogwarts, it says that the students should have their names in their clothes. Why would this be if their clothes weren't somehow mixed up with other people's clothes, and it is only during cleaning that this would happen. The clothes aren't cleaned magically wherever the students drop them and left there. Also, in the Polyjuice scene in COS, Hermione said she went to the laundry to steal some robes ? so she knows there is a laundry and that someone is cleaning them, and I'm surprised that there weren't any House Elves hanging around for her to sneak by. The essential problem is this: House Elves are not freed merely by contact with their masters' clothes, or else why didn't Dobby free himself when he was at the Malfoys by just grabbing some clothes himself? Nor is it by intent since Lucius did not intend to free Dobby when he inadvertently threw him a sock. The House Elves are freed only if their master *hands* them some clothing (like with Dobby at the end of COS). Dobby speaks of being "presented with" or "passed" clothes (COS, p. 177 US ed.) The master doesn't even have to own the clothes: Lucius passed Dobby Harry's sock. And the Elves can't refuse to accept them if they don't want to be freed ? remember Winky was fired by Crouch against her will in GOF (p. 138). So how can Hermione's hats work? Are the students "masters" of the Elves? Dobby treats Harry like a master in the scene in OOTP 27 where he warns Harry that Umbridge is coming to the Room of Requirement. So presumably the students count as "masters." But if the students are not "masters" and only DD or the teachers are, then Hermione is making another mistake in thinking she could free the Elves at all. But in any case, masters still must *hand* clothing to the Elves to free them. The Elves can pick up the dirty clothing of the students and clean them without being freed. It is only being passed the clothing that counts. So ... this means that the great Hermione Granger is making a mistake when she thinks that the hats she is gleefully knitting and leaving around the Gryffindor Common Room will free the House Elves. She is not handing the hats and socks to the Elves and so they can't be freed. How did Hermy think her clothes were being cleaned for years? She knew there was a laundry. The Elves can pick them up and nothing will happen. But the House Elves are still annoyed and insulted that someone is trying to trick them and so they do not clean the Common Room. Shouldn't good little House Elves go on doing their duty despite this? They know they are in no danger of being freed. Apparently Hermione did enough to turn off even dedicated House Elves from doing their job. That was quite an accomplishment in itself. Second, why hasn't Hermione noticed the problem? Why hasn't she thought this thing to death the way she does everything else? And why didn't she bother to check to see if her hats were actually working by checking with the House Elves in the kitchen? Why does she never bother to check to see if it is working? Is this story line a signal of her drift into arrogance? Or is JKR using it for something in HBP? (2) The D.A. List jinx. If Hermione had simply told the students about the jinx, no one would have told Umbridge. Think about it. If she was relying on the students' honesty all along, why bother putting a jinx on the list in the first place? And if she doesn't tell them, why did bother putting the jinx on it at all? The jinx wouldn't work to keep the secret unless they know it's there. It's like the Doomsday Device the Russians had in the movie "Doctor Strangelove": it is only a deterrent if they bother to tell the Americans. Was Hermione's object to keep the list secret or was she just being mean? Of course, the students would be mad at her at first if she told them about the jinx ("Oh, by the way, I put this little jinx on the list . . ."), but they would get over that and realize that they were safe of being exposed. Isn't that what is important? So the question is: was the purpose of the jinx to protect the students and the list, or was it just a nasty little trick to catch someone? (3) Umbridge getting the D.A. list. Hermione apparently "left [the list] behind" "pinned" to the wall of the Room of Requirement, to quote the book. Why in the world did she leave it pinned to the wall? Why bother taking attendance at the meetings or anything else connected to the list? Why didn't she take it and leave it somewhere hidden in her dorm room? Everyone may think it is secure in the Room of Requirement, but Hermione usually thinks things through more than that. If you reply that it wasn't her copy of the list but one that the Room of Requirement provided Umbridge (since the room provides whatever is needed and Umbridge needed that), there is still a problem. Wouldn't JKR have Hermione the next day say something like "It's not my list! Mine is still in my room!" or "The list vanished from my room!"? The way JKR wrote the scene Hermione definitely pinned her copy to the wall and left it there, and Dumbledore ended up fired. (4) The St. Valentine's Day Massacre. If Hermione had taken a minute on St. Valentine's Day to tell Harry why she wanted to meet him during his Valentine's Day date with Cho or to say that other people would be there too, things might not have gone so badly when Harry told Cho that Hermione wanted to see him that day. Moreover, since Hermione had to have been planning the Rita Skeeter interview days or weeks in advance, she could have told him sometime earlier what she was planning. She was able to make time afterwards to have a nice long talk with Harry about Cho. But the way she handled things, everything blew up for Harry. H/H shippers might argue that she did it on purpose to ruin Harry's relationship with Cho, but I like Hermione and so I like to think that she would not be that devious with Harry no matter how she felt. (5) Umbridge in the forest. At the end of the book, was Hermione trying to get Umbridge killed? Granted, she was thinking on her feet, but she knew the centaurs and spiders would kill an adult, and there she goes leading Umbridge into the forest. Not many people would object if Umbridge was killed, but did Hermione really want to kill a human being? I could talk about her lack of "people skills" in trying to get Harry to do what is best for him or how she treated Luna, but enough of my complaining. Richard Jones From h.m.s at mweb.co.za Tue Mar 15 10:00:47 2005 From: h.m.s at mweb.co.za (H.M.S) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:00:47 +0200 Subject: Ron & the mirror (was Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines,) References: <1110864910.24003.79438.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004e01c52949$4431c130$0200a8c0@Sharon> No: HPFGUIDX 126105 (Sorry, I don't have my books here with me at the office so can't supply quotes) Ron saw himself as Head boy and Quidditch Captain in the Mirror of Erised (which is Desire spelled backwards). As Dumbledore told Harry, the mirror showed the looker his deepest desires of the heart. Thus the mirror is not foretelling the future, but merely showing what Ron REALLY wants (to shine where he has always been overshadowed by all his older, brilliant-in-some-way, brother) Presumably - he still dreams about being captain and winning the cup; and dreams don't come true until we work for them! Sharon (SA) From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 15 15:40:43 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:40:43 -0000 Subject: History at Hogwarts (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126106 > SSSusan previously: > > > I've NO idea why DD allows Binns and Trelawney to teach if > > > they're really not all that good, but I can't imagine that he > > > would cave to Ministry pressure to teach a watered-down history > > > curriculum, where important but upsetting facts have been > > > removed to "protect" children's sensibilities. > This raises an interesting question. DOES the Ministry fund > Hogwarts teacher salaries or general operating expenses? What *is* > the Ministry's degree of oversight? How much autonomy does Hogwarts > have? Fudge has said, "I've *allowed* you to..." when speaking to > DD, and we saw him clamp down during Umbridge's reign, but I wonder > what the Hogwarts "charter" says about authority and whether the > Ministry has any fiscal role to play? > > Back to the Binns & Trelawney as teachers issue (not to mention the hiring of Lockhart), I have to confess that I *don't* understand how this fits with what we know of DD. > For me, this notion of crappy teachers being hired/retained at Hogwarts bothers me more than those others. Hannah: Oh yes, me too. Anything like that bothers me, because it seems to be at odds with the image JKR clearly has of DD being all- knowing and all-good. The question about Hogwarts autonomy is very interesting (and I bet JKR hasn't given it much thought). Hogwarts apparently isn't a fee paying school, so the funding must be coming from somewhere. I'd guess that the MoM is the source. How much control they have is another matter - did the MoM exist when Hogwarts was established? What about the governors, how much power do they have? Enough to fire Dumbledore in CoS. Of course, it seems likely that, given the relatively small number of wizards about, a fair proportion of governors are also ministry employees, so maybe they exert control indirectly via the governors. Why is Binns allowed to teach, apart from the cost? Lack of other suitable applicants, perhaps... I've really no idea. As for Trelawney, it's certainly the protection factor. Note that he was very keen for her not to leave the castle when Umbridge fired her. And given that he's not too keen on Divination as a subject anyway, it looks to me like she's there for her own safety. He now also has Firenze still teaching Divination, again because it's unsafe for him to return to the forest (though Firenze seems to be a good teacher). I'd go as far as saying that Snape too is teaching because he needs to be kept safe. But then that brings us to the situation where teaching posts go to people because they are DD's cronies or need protection from the outside world, rather than having any actual ability or desire to educate young people. I suppose we'll never be able to rationalise why DD hired people like Lockhart, for example. They appeared because JKR thought they'd make a good character. That's probably all the justification there can ever be. Hannah From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 15 15:45:05 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:45:05 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: <20050315125857.7776.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126107 phoenixgod wrote: > > this is the same man who *encouraged* Harry to travel back in > > time..., a man who *rewarded* Harry for his quick actions in > > books one and two instead of punish him because of the danger, > > and in book four saw Harry outwit a dragon, survive a duel with > > his nemesis, .... Then, all of a sudden, in the fifth book he > > wants to shield Harry because he cares too much? No, I just don't > > buy it. Magda: > All very true and the main reason why Dumbledore's book-end chat > with Harry in OOTP was a major "Huh?" moment for me. Especially > after letting his name stand for the Triwizard Tournament. > Dumbledore knew that the only reason someone put his name in there > was for not-Harry-healthy reasons and yet he basically let Harry be > a decoy for a year. Major, major character dislocation here. SSSusan: Two questions. And I'm *not* trying to convince either of you that you're wrong -- just trying to think through possibilities here. As for the TWT, I think how one evaluates DD's behavior turns on whether one believes that the name's having gotten into the cup and then gotten out as a selection *truly* constitutes a binding contract, regardless of HOW those things happened. This has been debated here before, and there are those who feel that there has to be a way for a Headmaster or step in and say, "Oh, no, no. This is a mistake. He's underage and he will NOT compete." There are others who believe that the stated *binding contract* really is just that and there was nothing DD could do to get Harry out of it. (Hard to imagine, a bit, I'll admit -- I mean, what if Harry had just said, "No, thanks"?) The question which came to mind for me as I read Phoenixgod's reasons for not finding DD very believable in OotP was this: Could it be that until the very end of GoF, DD could convince himself that Harry's antics were all "practice," but now that Voldy had a *corporeal body* back, could hold a wand and move about at will, was human again, it meant that DD could no longer deny the reality of the situation? Voldy was back at full force, and Harry would have to face him -- the real thing. It wasn't "practice" anymore. I mean, could that explain why he so suddenly turned *from* allowing Harry to do all these risky things *to* trying to protect him in ways he hadn't before? Just askin', Siriusly Snapey Susan From inkling108 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 16:20:09 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:20:09 -0000 Subject: Ron and Percy (was Re: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432) In-Reply-To: <20050315132323.67260.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126108 Magda wrote: > Part of Ron's problem is that he is more like Percy than the other > Weasleys and he's spent four and a half books trying to be like the > twins instead. The twins' ideas of what is acceptable and cool have > squashed his personal ambitions for years and not until they are gone > does Ron really come into his own. Inkling now: (light bulb going on in head) Yes...and Percy senses this too, which is why Ron was the only Weasley he made overtures to in OotP and why Percy was so visibly upset when there was a delay in Ron's return during the second task. Underneath the pompousness of Percy's letter in OotP was a real loneliness and yearning for some kind of connection to his family, to the point of projecting his attitudes onto Ron "what *we* might call the Fred and George route" and "no doubt you will say that Potter has always been Dumbledore's favorite" assuming that Ron shares his hypersensitivity to status and "the people who count." And underneath the advice to disassociate from Harry may be genuine concern about Ron's welfare and future. (Not to justify any of what he wrote, just that the motives were more that just pomp and vanity) What Percy doesn't understand is that Ron's genuine ambition is not so great as to distort his perception of events and his judgement of others. Percy doesn't understand this because he lacks the self- insight to realize the his own view is so distorted -- to him, Power makes right. I think if Percy is redeemed in the next two books it will be through Ron, but to help Percy Ron will have to continue to develop a sense of self, getting further out of his family's and Harry's shadow. Becoming Keeper was a beginning; he found the courage to try it despite the risks, and to stay with it despite the ridicule. Should Ron truly become his own man in book 6 it he may be able to see that Percy is not just a one-dimensional "git" but a complex person shaped by the same family pressures as Ron, and with the same need to prove himself. And that Percy, despite his overweening pride, has the same underlying love for family that all the Weasleys have. Inkling From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 15 17:01:46 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:01:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh m In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > As for the TWT, I think how one evaluates DD's behavior turns on > whether one believes that the name's having gotten into the cup and > then gotten out as a selection *truly* constitutes a binding > contract, regardless of HOW those things happened. This has been > debated here before, and there are those who feel that there has to > be a way for a Headmaster or step in and say, "Oh, no, no. This is a > mistake. He's underage and he will NOT compete." There are others > who believe that the stated *binding contract* really is just that > and there was nothing DD could do to get Harry out of it. (Hard to > imagine, a bit, I'll admit -- I mean, what if Harry had just > said, "No, thanks"?) > > The question which came to mind for me as I read Phoenixgod's reasons > for not finding DD very believable in OotP was this: Could it be > that until the very end of GoF, DD could convince himself that > Harry's antics were all "practice," but now that Voldy had a > *corporeal body* back, could hold a wand and move about at will, was > human again, it meant that DD could no longer deny the reality of the > situation? Voldy was back at full force, and Harry would have to > face him -- the real thing. It wasn't "practice" anymore. I mean, > could that explain why he so suddenly turned *from* allowing Harry to > do all these risky things *to* trying to protect him in ways he > hadn't before? > > Just askin', > Siriusly Snapey Susan Well, let me offer a meta-solution to some of these problems. I really don't think Dumbledore is meant to be seen as a puppetmaster, at least not to anything near the extent he often is. My suspicion is that we will find: 1) That he didn't intend for things in PS/SS to come to the point they did. He gave the cloak to Harry to see what Harry could/would accomplish, but things got out of hand very quickly. 2) He had no intention of Harry invading the CoS alone. 3) The situation with Sirius and the Dementors got out of hand as well 4) The GoF DOES establish a binding contract DD could not alter And, basically, as JKR says, DD lets Harry have freedoms he doesn't allow other students, but also reluctantly lets him learn some hard lessons he really, really would rather shield Harry from. But I don't think he ever intended Harry to get into the kind of dangers he has, and he wanted the lessons to be more in the way of the fact that not everyone in the WW is nice OR good, and that Harry needs to realize that there are a lot of people out there who really DO wish him harm (recall that when JKR alluded to this she was answering a question about why Dumbledore tolerates the children of Death Eaters gaining prominence at Hogwarts). We have clues to that in statements like "You faced Voldemort much sooner than I had intended," and his allusion to how Harry stunned him with his reaction to the PS/SS situation. So, in the end I think we are going to see Dumbledore as incompetent more than outright manipulative. Indeed, most of his manipulativeness in JKR's mind would seem to consists of him 1) enabling Harry's decisions, and 2) letting some people like the Malfoy clique (and maybe Snape) act like jerks even though he would really rather punish Malfoy and his cronies and tell Snape to keep his mouth shut. So, why does DD show such lapses of competence? Well, the answer is that there IS a puppetmaster at work, and her name is J.K. Rowling. Dumbledore has provided her with an all-too-useful tool for massaging plot events the way she wanted them to go, and I think she sometimes indulged herself in plotting without really thinking of the implications for DD's character. Or, to put it another way, there really are TWO Dumbledore's. There is Dumbledore the character, the kindly, wise headmaster who is the epitome of goodness and who loves Harry deeply and weeps that his beloved child has endured such pain. And there is Dumbledore the hand and mouthpiece of God (or at least JKR, who is the functional equivalent in the Potterverse) and who therefore does things that seem out of keeping with his character and who seems curiously incompetent at crucial moments in the story basically because the plot NEEDS him to act in incompetent ways. Lupinlore From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 17:32:31 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:32:31 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. - Clumsy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126110 "lupinlore" wrote: > I wonder how much of the problems > with OOTP could have been avoided > if the editors had had the freedom > to treat her manuscript with the > same rigor they would have shown > an unknown author's. I don't see the problems with OOTP that you do, nor do most people I think it's safe to say considering it's popularity. However you do have a point, it must be a bit intimidating to be JKR's editor, you'd need the confidence of a heart surgeon and the courage of a test pilot to walk up to the most successful novelist of all time and say "No no, you're doing it all wrong, do it this way " If I were her editor I would timidly suggest only two changes to OOTP: 1) In the final exam Harry is looking at Venus and Orion, but Venus can only be seen near sunrise or sunset and this was about midnight, and Orion is a winter constellation and it was June. Change it to Saturn and Polaris. 2) Cut out unnecessary adverbs, the book would be 10 pages shorter. Eggplant From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Mar 15 17:32:32 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:32:32 -0000 Subject: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: Pippin: I wonder, are Dumbledore and the other OOP!characters (Lupinlore didn't mention Molly and the Marauders so I'll add them to the list) really OOC with respect to the way JKR depicted them in previous books, or are they only out of sync with the pop culture stereotypes that the reader, with JKR's sly encouragement, superimposed on them? Was there ever justification in canon for thinking that Ron's ambitions were as unrealistic as Sancho Panza's, or was that an expectation formed by Sancho himself and all the generations of loyal but hopelessly out of their depth sidekicks who followed in his footsteps? Whoever said that Molly was June Cleaver with a wand, or weren't there always indications that, kind and loving though she is, she has a tendency to play favorites and is a poor judge of character? Did canon ever show Ginny as a simple innocent, or did we think she was because, like Snow White, she accepted a gift from a stranger and was cast into a trance? Did everyone in canon see the Marauders as angels with dirty faces, or did we, the readers, wish that characterization on them? Did anyone promise us that Harry would always be clever enough to see through the traps the villain laid for him, or did we think he would because he's the hero? Did anyone say we'd always like Hermione? That she'd always display just the right mixture of superiority and fallibility that we'd find endearing? Or are we trying to fit her into the cultural straitjacket of a proper literary heroine? JKR did say that Dumbledore is the epitome of goodness. But once you get away from fuzzy platitudes and down to hard cases, is there consensus about what goodness means? Isn't it a matter of passionate and bloody dispute? I think JKR snuck in another object lesson in the power of stereotypes. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 17:42:28 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:42:28 -0000 Subject: Wizard Persecution (was: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126112 Alla earlier: "A rift began to grow between Slytherin and the others. Slytherin wished to be more selective about the students admitted to Hogwarts. he believed that magical learning should be kept within all-magical families. He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy. After a while, there was a serious argument on the subject between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the school" - CoS, p.130. > Lindsay: > Again, I am not trying to sing Slytherin praises, but there is > absolutely nothing malicious about what Binns says about Slytherin's > views. The sole reason that Binns gives for Slytherin is that he > finds Muggles "untrustworthy". He does not say that Muggleborns are > less powerful or inferior in any matter to purebloods, he just finds > them untrustworthy. To me, there is absolutely nothing malicious with > that, and the entire point of this debate was whether or not > Slytherin's views were justified. Alla: Well, we differ on this point, Lindsay. Salazar did not want muggle- born witches and wizards in Hogwarts. He found them untrustworthy, why? Did he think that children will help muggles to persecute purebloods and then will be dead themselves? They are people with magical ability who are just as vulnerable to persecution as any other witch or wizard. Salazar wanted to deny them education in Hogwarts, thus making them even more likely to be persecuted. Yes, I find malice in it. In his mind Salazar may have perfectly good reasons to have such prejudice. As I said earlier one can rationalize any prejudice, but whether outside observer finds such reasons to be rational, it is a different story. I don't. Again, as long as Salazar wanted pure bloods only in his house, I could sort of give him a pass (without really liking it, but hey that is his house, he sort of does what he wants, especially since Godric and Ravena also had their criteria. Although again I don't find theirs to be as bad as Salazar's was.), but when he started saying no muggle-borns in Hogwarts, I don't like it at all. Lindsay: So until we see a Muggleborn in Slytherin (thus showing that the Hat completely disregards Slytherin's true intentions for his house regarding blood), it is safe to assume that Slytherin only felt that Muggleborns were untrustworthy, not half-bloods. I imagine the Hat just said that to make a good rhyme. =P Alla: Slytherin wanted those whose blood is purest. It seems clear to me. :o) Lindsay: I don't think we know well enough all the reasons that they were fighting, let alone why Slytherin left. I'm sure the admittance of Muggleborns was just one of the many problems. Either he left and the Founders had nothing to fight amongt each other about (which wouldn't make sense to what the Hat just said), or the remaining Founders learned the errors of their ways, so to speak. They realised that whatever they were arguing about didn't matter so much, because they had just lost their best friend. It's kind of sad, when you think about it that way. And if the Houses can't unite after a thousand years of discord - it seems there is little hope for Hogwarts in the present day. Alla: Well, I said the similar thing upthread - it is a possibility that something else happened, but it also states that fighting died out when Salazar left. And there is also a possibility that Sorting Hat felt that it sufficiently described the conflict already. :o) Valky: One thing I think we can safely assume is that wizard persecution existed in Salazar's time, I have never tried to dismiss this argument. What I question is that to what degree were Muggle methods of battle a serious and mortal danger to Hogwarts via the admission of Muggle children. In other words, did Salazar have the situation out of proportion or should the distrust of Muggles really have been escalated thus far? Alla: Yes, thank you, Valky again. This is exactly my point. I think Salazar went too far. Now that I think about it, maybe he had some personal tragedy to deal with ( as if someone in his family killed by Muggles), which I would find sympathetic on the personal level, but not on general level. Just speculating. Valky: A simple argument to that Salazar's behaviour *was* irrational, is that History tells of the inability of Muggles to "kill" wizards by burning, the most common practise and hence a reason to believe that the persecution was *relatively* laughable. The other argument in this case is that Salazar transposed his distrust onto children, the weakest of all, as Lindsay has pointed out above so again Salazar's position continues to be quite ironic seeing as he was one of the "Most Powerful" wizards of the age and pretty hilarious, to boot. Alla: Again, I do wonder what happened that made Salasar distrust of Muggleborns increase so drastically that he started insisting that Muggleborns should not be allowed into Hogwarts AT ALL? Just my opinion, Alla From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Mar 15 18:17:12 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:17:12 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 5837 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126113 In a message dated 3/15/2005 8:14:01 AM Central Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: originally said: "How are children, or any witch or wizard of the time, who have not been educated, able to know the Charm to keep them from burning at the stake? Or drowning? Or saving themselves from any one of the horrible situations that we saw during the periods of time where people were persecuted for witchcraft? Magical children would learn the same way that Muggle children did before education was formalized. . from their parents. The muggle-borns would be more likely to be persecuted prior to formal education. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 15 19:14:33 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:14:33 -0000 Subject: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126114 Lupinlore wrote: > The characters whom people object to are: > > 1) Dumbledore. Many people found him OOC in the last book. > Particularly they found his decisions and actions implausible and > sometimes downright unbelievable in light of his previous actions and characterization. Hannah: I've always found DD like this. His actions in all five books don't make sense in the light of his reputation and JKR's apparent image of him as the personification of goodness. In my opinion anyway. >Lupinlore: > 2) Harry. Hannah: Apart from his anger, Harry seemed about the same as before in this fic. He never was the sharpest kid around. Lupinlore: > 3) Ron. His development seems contrived to some, and perhaps even > offensive, since he was elevated to a position he had not earned at > the expense of Harry, who had earned it. In particular it seems > forced and manipulative as it seems designed to fulfill a > foreshadowing we had been assured was not a foreshadowing. Hannah: I don't think that Ron's position as prefect or as keeper are signs that he will achieve his eleven-year-old ambitions. There are other people more likely to be made head boy, and I'd think Harry was a dead cert for Quidditch captain (and also a strong candidate for head boy, actually). Why shouldn't Ron be given a bit of an existence of his own? He's a good Quidditch player from a Quidditch playing family, and had the advantage of a bit of favouritism to get him onto the team, and while I don't think he's an obvious choice for prefect, neither would I say Harry is. Lupinlore: > 4) Ginny. Her shift in personality came out of left field, Hannah: I didn't see her personality as shifting that drastically. Even back in CoS Ron says that she 'never shuts up.' The fact that she survived the trauma of her possession suggests a great strength of character. And in GoF she was already developing into the more confident girl we see in OotP. Lupinlore: > 5. Hermione. She seemed shrill and unsympathetic to some people, and many object to the fact that she was always right. Hannah: Again, Hermione was pretty much like she's always been, and I didn't think she was always right. My problems with OotP lie more in the excessive length and the amount of padding, along with the frustrating way that it promised much and left us plotwise barely any further on from the end of GoF. The characterisation was never a problem for me. It's not her best book - I'd go as far as saying the weakest of the five - but it is still a good read. Lupinlore wrote: > I think that about sums it up. Like I said, just trying to pull allthe topics together for convenience and further discussion, if anyone so desires. Hannah: It was a great idea for a discussion thread, Lupinlore :-) Hannah From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 19:39:51 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:39:51 -0000 Subject: "Little Miss Perfect" (Was Re: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126115 Richard Jones wrote: > > I think the posters are incorrect about Hermione always being right > in OOTP. She has been consistently my favorite character throughout > the five books, but in OOTP she made some big mistakes. Here are > five instances of "Little Miss Perfect," as that cow Rita Skeeter > called her, screwing up in OOTP. > > (1) Hermione's Guerrilla Hat Campaign. > (2) The D.A. List jinx. > > (3) Umbridge getting the D.A. list. > > (4) The St. Valentine's Day Massacre. [Erm, "fiasco"? There's no massacre. Carol] > > (5) Umbridge in the forest. > I could talk about her lack of "people skills" in trying to get Harry to do what is best for him or how she treated Luna, but enough of my complaining. Carol responds: I've never thought that Hermione was perfect. In fact, when I first read the phrase "little Miss Perfect," I thought it was a typo for "little Miss Prefect," which is at least unarguable. Only the fact that Rita repeats the phrase several times made me think that it might actually be JKR's actual wording rather than an editor's erroneous "correction." At any rate, I agree that the overdeveloped house-elf/hats subplot in OoP is a set-up for something to come in HBP or Book 7. More important, I think that Hermione is overdue for a lesson about books as a source of truth. So far, she's learned that "Hogwarts: A History" doesn't give the full story (it doesn't mention house-elf enslavement). In my view that's because the author is probably a pureblood or halfblood who grew up in the WW, unlike Muggleborn Hermione, who sees it with Mugglevision. IOW, the author doesn't mention house-elf enslavement because he or she takes it for granted, just as we take modern plumbing and electricity for granted. But she may well find that her books are wrong about crumple-horned snorkacks, too. Hermione needs some firsthand experience of both life and the WW to balance her book knowledge and I think that lesson is coming in HBP, via house-elves and/or Luna Lovegood. As for JKR claiming Hermione as a source of information in one of her interviews (forgive me for not having gone upthread to see what others have said on the topic), I think she meant that we can generally believe Hermione when she provides factual information about Hogwarts or the WW that clearly comes from a book, especially when she cites her source. But her opinions are another matter. We're free (at least until canon proves us wrong) to dispute her views on house-elves or her psychoanalyses of Sirius and Cho Chang). We can agree with her that Snape deserves Dumbledore's trust or with Ron that he doesn't. But when she tells us that you can't apparate from Hogwarts or that only six (IIRC) witches and wizards registered as Animagi in the twentieth century, we would do well to believe her. Part of her function in the knowledge is to serve as a walking almanac. The WW is not her birthplace; it's a new world that she has to live in for at least ten months of the year and has come to love despite its flaws. She wants to know as much as she can about it, and to pass on her knowledge to Harry, who was also raised as a Muggle until he was eleven. We who are forced to live in the Muggle world every minute of every day should be grateful for the tidbits of information she chooses to throw to us, or rather to Harry. No, she's not perfect. Neither is the WW. Or Harry or Dumbledore or JKR herself. But they wouldn't be interesting--or worth writing many long posts on--if they were. If you want perfect goodness, read Dante's "Paradiso" or the heavenly sections of Milton's "Paradise Lost." (Snore.) Carol, who still thinks of Hermione as "little Miss Prefect" whether or not that was JKR's intention. From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 20:25:13 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:25:13 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Persecution (was: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126116 Valky: > Without assuming that Binnsy has read it cover to cover and nitpicked > the fine detail, personally (he certainly has had plenty of time on > his hands for doing so..) we can yet find that some creedence to it's > authority or author would rather likely be paid by Professor Binns or > else why would he choose it. > Lindsay: I haven't met a teacher to date who had any direct control over the books they taught out of. Perhaps it is different in the UK, but most books over here are chosen by either the board or district or the principal (I think it differs by county or state), or at the university level, by the department. Twice in my life I have worked with my teachers to get the books changed. One finally got the district to change after a year of complaining to them and getting enough of the other teachers to sign a petition. The other, after three years, is still trying to get the department to change the book, but to no avail, even though he has been teaching that class for years and he is a senior member on staff. So it may not even be a matter under Binns's control. Umbridge excluded - she had a bit more control over these things than Binns does. Dumbledore, the Board of Governors, even the Ministry may be the ones controlling the student book list. And while Binns may have changed the book during his life, I doubt Binns is going to make the effort in death. He may have understood the need to cover it up, there may have not *been* a better book out there, etc. While, yes, if the book was false, the correct information could probably very easily be had through asking Binns or the Library, how many students are going to actually sit down, ask questions, and then research? But the book isn't false - it does tell the truth regarding the matter. It just doesn't tell the *entire* story, I think. It omits a great deal of information, and in a manner as to dismiss that there IS any further information. And I don't doubt for a second that Slytherin was a Dark wizard. I agree completely with you, Valky, that the Chamber probably held a great deal of knowledge about such things, and that is where Tom learned it all. And yes, we do not really have a true canon backup for any of this, I think currently we do have enough canon to support that Salazar wasn't entirely malicious, if we assume that the basilisk was more of a defensive measure than an offensive one. Even if it is offensive, whether or not Salazar's mistrust was just that - mistrust - is the key. We have received no canon evidence that Salazar *hated* Muggles and Muggleborns. No primary or secondary source has said that at all. He just did not want Muggleborns in the school because he thought they were untrustworthy. And whether that is right or wrong doesn't matter, but whether the position is justifiable - or even, understandable. I think it is. JKR has, time and time again, fooled us into thinking one thing about something, only to reveal that it is something else entirely. Things are not always what they seem, or what people make them out to be. While Snape is still a bastard, now we feel pity for his childhood. We learned that James wasn't the greatest kid out there. We learned that Dumbledore is indeed infalliable. We learned, books 1-4, that the current DADA person wasn't who we thought they were. There has been incidences, time and time again, of mistaken indentity, or mistaken assessment of a person. I think JKR has given us more than enough hints that Salazar Slytherin wasn't exactly the maniac Dark Wizard who hated Muggles that Voldie and the Death Eaters (that sounds like a band, huh?) make him out to be. That everyone else makes him out to be, too. Except Dumbledore. Dumbledore has yet to say anything negative about Salazar Slytherin, and in fact, when he did talk to Harry about him (concerning Harry's placement in Gryffindor), there was something respectful and *good* about what Dumbledore said. Dumbledore, who should have plenty of bad things to say about Slytherin concerning their clashing views on Muggleborns, doesn't take the oppurtunity to say negative things about the Founder, but good things. Things that Harry, he pointed out, had in common with Slytherin. I think that speaks volumes, and while I do not doubt for a second that Slytherin practised Dark magic, that doesn't exactly make him a maniacally murderer who set out to eradicate all Muggleborns. I'm not saying that Slytherin was a good person. Far from it. But I am trying to justify his position as we know it, and I think there is a lot to be said from what we know. Alla: Again, I do wonder what happened that made Salasar distrust of Muggleborns increase so drastically that he started insisting that Muggleborns should not be allowed into Hogwarts AT ALL? Lindsay: It makes me wonder, too. :) From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 20:37:56 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:37:56 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, ...etc..., plotlines, oh my!. - Clumsy? Minor Points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > > > > bboyminn: > > > > > > > > ... The phrase (something to the effect of), '...enough to be > > getting on with...' was used just a little too often for my taste. > > It may be a very common 'Britishism', but to my American > > ears, once was enough, but every use after that was jarring. ... > > Especially weak, as I have noted, because the phrase had already > > been used. > LupinLore replies: > > I expect this is ...(a)...cultural things. I ... am ... > American and found the "...enough to be getting on with..." to be a > curiously colorless expression, .... But, Dumbledore is British, > after all, and the expression may well convey something different to > British readers. bboyminn: Just so we are clear, it's not so much the expression itself, as I recognise that as a common British speech pattern. It's the fact that other characters had used the same expression. The first time it was used, it was interestly curious, each time after that it was jarring. Then to use it as part of Dumbledore's explanation of why Harry didn't get a Prefect Badge left the whole experience as you put it 'colorless' and bland. I get the sense it went something like this... it's late, I'm tired, need to finish this, oh well -- '...enough to be getting on with...', turn out the lights, go to bed, the end. Certainly at this critical emotion packed point in the story, JKR could have found something more effective than a tired trite old expression. Any other way of saying the same thing would have been infinitely more satisfying. Along with... ...cricked his neck... ..enough to be getting on with... someone pointed out that '...little Miss Perfect...' referencing Hermione was a little overused. Aren't there people whose job it is to catch these things. (more on that later) > > bboyminn: > > > > For what it's worth, unless Harry is dead, I don't think Ron will > > be Headboy. But he will still have, in the end, a very outstanding > > career at Hogwarts, history-making outstanding. > > > Lupinlore: > > Well, as I've said in another post, how contrived the whole > development of Ron seems when all is said and done will depend a lot > on what happens in the next two books. ... > bboyminn: I will agree with one aspect of your point. If the story unfolds in a way in which everything Ron saw in the mirror comes true, that will be a little over the top. How completely unimaginitive. The way I see it going, as I said in my previous post, and the way I see you HOPING it will go, is that Ron will distinguish himself as Harry's friend and side-kick, but also on his own. He will prove himself as himself, and not just as an extension of Harry. That's what many of us Ron fan are hoping and have been predicting. > < bboyminn: > > > > I see it in the simple basic mechanics of writing. Personally, I > > think some of the copy editors should have called JKR on those > > repetitive phrases. > > > Lupinlore concludes: > > ...JKR is so successful now as to be editor proof. ..., with so much > money riding on getting her books out, I am sure ... her publishers > have very little patience with editors ... I suspect Scholastic ... > to ...GET THE THING OUT. I wonder how much of the problems with OOTP > could have been avoided if the editors had had the freedom to treat > her manuscript with the same rigor they would have shown an > unknown author's. > > Lupinlore bboyminn: I'm curious if anyone remembers how much time there was between the finished OotP manuscript and the release date of the book? I don't recall, and while it was certainly a number of months, it seems pretty short. With the latested book, Half-Blood Prince, they seem to be taking a little longer. I think it's possible, in hindsight, that they realize they may have rushed to publication. In addition to JKR's fame and the Siren's call of money, I think the story is starting to get long and complex, and that is making editing more difficult. Further, I doubt that /one/ editor proofreads cover to cover and makes the corrections. I suspect in a rush to get it out, a team of editors are working on sections of the book, and that makes things like repetative phrases harder to catch. Finally, I think OotP contained plot points and characters that had to be established in this book because they will be needed in later books. When an author has specific things that the broader story demands, sometimes the short term story suffers in an attempt to work them in. So, I think the short-term story suffered because there were so many key plot points that JKR had to include in this story, that it made tying them together difficult which in turn made parts of the book a little clumsy. For example, many people hated the Grawp sidetrack, especially since it occurred during Ron's moment of glory. But JKR needed Grawp in the story for both short-term and long-term reasons. The long-term is that he needed to be introduced so she could use him in later books. The short-term is, she had to establish his presents and character/personality so he could intervene in the Umbrige/Centaur fiasco. In addition, Grawp has to bleed on Harry and Hermione, so his blood could later draw the Thestrals to them. I would love to love Hagrid's /little/ brother, but he is such a blundering, oafish, imbecile that I can muster very little sympathy for him. Great sympathy for Hagrid, but none for Grawp. Curiously, my attitude mirrors Harry and Hermione's. Just a few minor points. Steve/bboyminn From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 15 22:02:30 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:02:30 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. - Clumsy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126118 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant9998" wrote: > > I don't see the problems with OOTP that you do, nor do most people I > think it's safe to say considering it's popularity. Oh, I don't know. I never find that I lack for company when the subject of OOTP and its faults comes up. But you are right that I am more critical of OOTP than most. That's life. And after all, don't forget that in the great swath of the population I represent a favorable group with regard to JKR. I was willing to plop down a hard-earned $35.00 American for OOTP, and have already done the same for HBP. The vast majority of humanity, even of humanity that speaks English and has the cash, is not willing to part with a dime for Harry Potter. JKR is definitely the world's most popular and successful author. But after all, even at that the great mass of people, even of English-speaking people, really don't give a flip one way or another. However you do > have a point, it must be a bit intimidating to be JKR's editor, you'd > need the confidence of a heart surgeon and the courage of a test pilot > to walk up to the most successful novelist of all time and say "No no, > you're doing it all wrong, do it this way " Chuckle. Confidence yes and an extremely kind boss. But, to be fair, in the end it is JKR's baby. It is never the editor's job to write the book, only to try and improve it. That is why ultimately JKR has to get the praise or the blame for her successes and failures, not her editors. > > If I were her editor I would timidly suggest only two changes to OOTP: > > 1) In the final exam Harry is looking at Venus and Orion, but Venus > can only be seen near sunrise or sunset and this was about midnight, > and Orion is a winter constellation and it was June. Change it to > Saturn and Polaris. Good point. > > 2) Cut out unnecessary adverbs, the book would be 10 pages shorter. > > Eggplant Probably more like 50 pages shorter. Another good point. Lupinlore From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 22:15:22 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:15:22 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126119 > SSSusan: > Two questions. And I'm *not* trying to convince either of you that > you're wrong -- just trying to think through possibilities here. > > As for the TWT, I think how one evaluates DD's behavior turns on > whether one believes that the name's having gotten into the cup and > then gotten out as a selection *truly* constitutes a binding > contract, regardless of HOW those things happened. This has been > debated here before, and there are those who feel that there has to > be a way for a Headmaster or step in and say, "Oh, no, no. This is a > mistake. He's underage and he will NOT compete." There are others > who believe that the stated *binding contract* really is just that > and there was nothing DD could do to get Harry out of it. (Hard to > imagine, a bit, I'll admit -- I mean, what if Harry had just > said, "No, thanks"?) > > The question which came to mind for me as I read Phoenixgod's reasons > for not finding DD very believable in OotP was this: Could it be > that until the very end of GoF, DD could convince himself that > Harry's antics were all "practice," but now that Voldy had a > *corporeal body* back, could hold a wand and move about at will, was > human again, it meant that DD could no longer deny the reality of the > situation? Voldy was back at full force, and Harry would have to > face him -- the real thing. It wasn't "practice" anymore. I mean, > could that explain why he so suddenly turned *from* allowing Harry to > do all these risky things *to* trying to protect him in ways he > hadn't before? > > Just askin', > Siriusly Snapey Susan a_svirn: I don't believe that DD deliberately let Harry to continue as a fourth champion. As far as we can see he's been getting increasingly more worried throughout the GoF. He knew that LV was getting stronger and he wasn't happy about the TWT situation. Still, his helplessness does look strange, I admit. There are actually much more questions concerning this business with TWT. In fact I'd say that Book 4 is the most controversial so far. I do believe that the selection of champions constitutes a "truly binding contract". So what? The tradition of holding TWT was abandoned a few centuries ago precisely because the whole thing was too dangerous and the death tally too high. Then all of a sudden the Ministry and DD decided that they could give it a try providing that a few rules were changed. So why not change the one regarding the selection as a binding contract? It was extremely careless for Crouch and DD not to anticipate that kind of thing. After all, students were bound to try befuddling the goblet, and considering the background of the Durmstrang's headmaster they couldn't in all honesty rule out attempts of sabotage and cheating. So why stick to that "binding" thing? Just because the Goblet is made that way? Surely they could think of something. Make another goblet, if necessary. (Come to think of it, why didn't they organize a series of "play- offs"? They certainly had enough time: there was a month gap between the selection and the first task and intervals between the tasks took a couple of months each. And it does seem bizarre that 22 kids came all the way to Hogwarts just to be rejected right upon arrival). And doesn't the whole setting strike you as an extremely unfair one? For starters three judges out of five were British. Moreover it seems that unlike their foreign colleagues every teacher at Hogwarts from the Headmaster down to Hagrid knew what was in store for the champions. Now, Crouch/Moody did say that cheating is a traditional part of the tournament, didn't he? It still doesn't explain why the other two schools agreed to participate under these terms, however. Certainly NOT the best way to foster a better international relationship. And the tasks themselves. OK, the first one was a bit on the extreme side, but no denying it was spectacular. But the other two? We saw them through Harry's eyes, so they were spectacular enough for us, but imagine that you were part of the audience? You could only have seen how the champions prepared to brave the lake, and how they entered the maze. What kind of tournament is that if all you can do is to watch the lake surface or the maze hedges? For hours and hours presumably. I really would like to hear what sort of commentary Ludo Bagman came up with under the circumstances. And finally why did LV bother with this tournament at all? If all he needed was to arrange a port-key, surely Crouch jr. could arrange it any time he wanted without going to such lengths in order to ensure Harry's victory? One can turn ANYTHING into a portkey, can't one? And Crouch-Moody had the whole year at his disposal. a_svirn From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Mar 15 22:39:10 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:39:10 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh m In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126120 > a_svirn: > I don't believe that DD deliberately let Harry to continue as a > fourth champion. As far as we can see he's been getting increasingly more worried throughout the GoF. He knew that LV was getting stronger and he wasn't happy about the TWT situation. Still, his helplessness does look strange, I admit.< Pippin: To me, it seemed awfully familiar, but then I've actually been a victim of identity theft. Although the loan company was willing to admit I wasn't responsible for the debt taken out in my name, there was no provision in the law then to stop them reporting it as a bad loan to the credit reporting agencies. We don't know what the penalty for withdrawing from a magical contract is, but I wouldn't be surprised if Harrry had had to go around with QUITTER emblazoned on his face for all time. And after all, Dumbledore knows that only Voldemort can kill Harry, so why worry about dragons, merpeople and acromantulas? A_svirn: > And the tasks themselves. OK, the first one was a bit on the extreme side, but no denying it was spectacular. But the other two? We saw them through Harry's eyes, so they were spectacular enough for us, but imagine that you were part of the audience? < Pippin: The WW obviously hasn't been spoiled by television. Suppose people's attention does wander...they can't flip to another channel. Pippin From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 23:08:10 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:08:10 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > And finally why did LV bother with this tournament at all? If all he > needed was to arrange a port-key, surely Crouch jr. could arrange it > any time he wanted without going to such lengths in order to ensure > Harry's victory? One can turn ANYTHING into a portkey, can't one? > And Crouch-Moody had the whole year at his disposal. GEO: But one can't simply create a portkey on Hogwarts grounds considering the various safe guards placed on the school by its many former headmasters. The only time other than the triwizard tournament that the portkey was created was during OOTP by the Headmaster of the school who no doubt would have the knowledge to getting around some of the schools various protections and barriers. As for the situation in the Tri-Wizard tournament, the consensus seems to be that the trophy was already a portkey approved by Hogwarts to teleport the champion out of the maze, but was modified by Crouch to teleport Harry into the hands of Voldemort, which would also explain why Harry was able to teleport back to Hogwarts and out of the maze when he touched it a second time. From melaniertay at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 23:17:44 2005 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:17:44 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh m In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126122 Lupinlore Said: > So, in the end I think we are going to see Dumbledore as incompetent > more than outright manipulative. Indeed, most of his manipulativeness > in JKR's mind would seem to consists of him 1) enabling Harry's > decisions, and 2) letting some people like the Malfoy clique (and > maybe Snape) act like jerks even though he would really rather punish > Malfoy and his cronies and tell Snape to keep his mouth shut. > > So, why does DD show such lapses of competence? I've wondered about this too. I got stuck on one thing. First, if he is incompetent at what is he incompetent? Being a puppetmaster. He runs the school (which is his job) just fine. Dumbledore can appear incompetent because we expect him to know everything. If he cannot predict the future or see through polyjuice potion, he is incompetent. This is only because we think he should have known, something no one could know. Maybe he's just a 150 year old man. Pretty smart, but also fallible. Mel From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 16 01:06:27 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 01:06:27 -0000 Subject: Wizard Persecution (was: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126123 > Valky: > > Without assuming that Binnsy has read it cover to cover and > > nitpicked the fine detail, personally (he certainly has had plenty > > of time on his hands for doing so..) we can yet find that some > > creedence to it's authority or author would rather likely be paid > > by Professor Binns or else why would he choose it. > > > Lindsay: > I haven't met a teacher to date who had any direct control over the > books they taught out of. Perhaps it is different in the UK, but > most books over here are chosen by either the board or district or > the principal .... edited.... > So it may not even be a matter under Binns's control. Umbridge > excluded - she had a bit more control over these things than Binns > does. Dumbledore, the Board of Governors, even the Ministry may be > the ones controlling the student book list. Valky: Fair point, but it doesn't explain nine Gilderoy Lockhart's for DADA in second year. It seems entirely possible that the teachers do set the texts, given that. I don't know about UK but I think in Australia that there is some cases where the Lecturer/Teacher is allowed to set the text as he/she sees fit particularly in college education. On the rest we seem to relatively (there's that word again) agree about it all, Though we weigh the Basilisk vs Distrust slightly differently. And although we both agree we are going to be surprised by the real Salazar (I haven't said so directly but that is what I was getting at) there is some distinction between what is the most likely hairpin direction for his character in a future book. > > Alla: > Again, I do wonder what happened that made Salasar distrust of > Muggleborns increase so drastically that he started insisting that > Muggleborns should not be allowed into Hogwarts AT ALL? > > Lindsay: > It makes me wonder, too. :) Valky: Like Alla, I had some thoughts about, possibly, that Salazar had a personal tragedy in his own history that pushed him toward the abyss of his reasoning. It seems likely. But what could that be? Can we use Wendelin the Weird to rule out his parents/loved ones having been burned at the stake? Or shouldn't we rule that out at all. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 03:20:30 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 03:20:30 -0000 Subject: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126124 Alla wrote: > Besides, I tend to take as true the fact that real witches were > able to escape persecution. > Carol responds: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only canon I can recall about witches and wizards escaping persecution relates to witch-burning. Historically, witches were also drowned (if they died, they were declared innocent; if the survived, they were guilty and subjected to some other punishment) or hanged, as at the Salem witch trials in 1692. Admittedly, that was long after Salazar Slytherin's time, but I don't think it's coincidence that the Statute of Secrecy was passed in that same year. So I think it's likely that *not* all witches and wizards escaped persecution. Either that or in JKR's version of history as in the RW version, a lot of (presumably) innocent *Muggles* died as the result of anti-witch/wizard hysteria. Carol, whose ancestor Martha Carrier, an English settler married to a Welshman, was one of the "witches" hanged in Salem in 1692 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 03:41:40 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 03:41:40 -0000 Subject: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126125 Carol: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only canon I can recall about witches and wizards escaping persecution relates to witch-burning. So I think it's likely that *not* all witches and wizards escaped persecution. Either that or in JKR's version of history as in the RW version, a lot of (presumably) innocent *Muggles* died as the result of anti-witch/wizard hysteria. Alla: Umm, I am going to repeat myself again, but I'd like to not be misunderstood. :o). Upthread we did come to very nice consensus that persecution did occurred (or I think that we came to such consensus). I am only disputing the size of persecution and methods ( the burning ). I am also disputing the dismissal of the canon source, not the existence of persecution per se. I even specifically conceded that point, which I was not really disputing originally, or if it seemed that I was, then sorry for being unclear. And a very good point that many muggles did die as a result of anti- witches hysteria. I am inclined to believe that. Of course the main point of all that to me is how justified was Salazar in letting his fear, distrust, dislike ( call it how you prefer) of Muggles cloud his judgment of muggle-borns magical children, who, IMO, were more vulnerable than purebloods, because as Melissa (I think) said they lived among muggles. I don't find Salazar politics to be justified at all. Just my opinion of course, Alla From gelite67 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 03:41:58 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 03:41:58 -0000 Subject: Robe Malfunction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126126 OK, the subject is a little tongue-in-cheek but this really bugs me -- don't wizards/witches wear clothes under their robes? In COS, Ron and Harry get larger robes and shoes when they take the Polyjuice Potion to change into Crabbe and Goyle, but nothing else. What about pants, shirts, and undies? In OOP when Harry enters Snapes worst memory, James turns Snape upside down revealing his underwear. In GOF, after the World Quidditch Match, when the Death Eaters are on the loose, Draco taunts Hermione that she'll be up in the air showing her knickers. I don't get it! Angie From gelite67 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 03:50:42 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 03:50:42 -0000 Subject: "other ways of destroying a man . . ." / The Gleam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126127 --- > antosha wrote: > > As for that triumphant gleam.... :shudders: That topic has been > discussed at great length here in the year or so that I've been > around, but I have to say that no one has ever > > proposed a good, canonical explanation. Angie replies: This was pointed out by someone else, so I don't take credit for it, but could it be that because Voldy took Harry's blood, he is now "killable" again? From gelite67 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 03:56:05 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 03:56:05 -0000 Subject: Does Trewlawney Know About the Prophecy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126128 I wonder if Trewlawney even knows she made the prophecies? If she goes into a trancelike state and emerges like she did in POA with Harry, she seems to be unaware. Moreover, she seemed horrified at the thought that she had made a prediction to Harry about the Dark Lord. If she knew she had done it once before, seems like it wouldn't have come as quite a shock. I find it interesting that the only two people who have witnessed her predictions are Harry and DD. What is the mysterious connection b/w her and them that "triggered" the prophecies? Related question: How does DD know that she's only made 2 predictions? Couldn't she have made some to someone else, that never got "recorded" at the MOM? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 03:59:33 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 03:59:33 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy In-Reply-To: <20050313000401.67145.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126129 Brodeur wrote: > I was just reading over OOTP and I was wondering why Lord Voldemort had so much "faith" in Trelawney. Everybody seems to think that she is loony and crazy. Why is it that Voldy would care so much about a Prophecy made by somebody who he knows nothing about? Besides the fact that a Prophecy is not always correct or true. > > jina haymaker responded: > I think that Voldy trusted this Prohecy because Trewlawney went into her trance like state and then predicted what was to happen. There seems to be very few true predictions but you can tell the different between them. Wasn't Trewlawney's grandmother a very well repected Seer? Carol adds: Voldemort wasn't present, but I agree with Jina that the spy, whoever he was, would have recognized the Prophecy as genuine because of the change in Trelawney's voice and her obvious transformation from her ordinary self to a conduit for the prophecy as she entered the trance. The style of the prophecy, too, is not that of ordinary speech. I'm quite sure that Trelawney was not in the habit of referring to Voldemort as "the Dark Lord," for example. The spy (almost certainly a Death Eater) would have put all this together and drawn the conclusion that it was a legitimate prophecy. Voldemort, as a Legilimens, would have known that he spoke the truth--and might even have been able to visualize the scene himself based on the spy's memory of the event. (Whether he could *hear* it or not, I don't know. Legilimency seems to depend mostly on visual memories.) At any rate, Trelawney's identity was secondary to the Prophecy itself, which LV would have recognized as true to form, operating as real prophesies operate in the WW. Probably he had never heard of Sybil Trelawney and wouldn't have cared whether she was regarded as a fraud in other circumstances. It was only *this* circumstance, the prophecy concerning himself and a yet-unborn baby, that mattered. At that point, IMO, Dumbledore realized what had happened and became concerned for her safety, fearing that LV might try to kidnap her and torture the rest of the prophecy out of her if Legilimency failed. That, I'm sure, is why DD hired her; not because he realized that she wasn't wholly a fraud but because he wanted to protect her, even if it meant exposing his students to useless fluff masquerading as magical education. Carol From bree4378 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 01:13:55 2005 From: bree4378 at yahoo.com (Sabrina) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:13:55 -0000 Subject: Wild HBP Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126130 "K" wrote: > ~J.K. Rowling's World Book Day Chat: March 4, 2004 > > Harry: Has Voldemort any children? > > JK Rowling replies -> No. Voldemort as a father... now that's not a > nice thought. I didn't know about the interview. Oh well...there goes my theory I guess. If LV doesn't have any children, then I suppose Petunia can't be his daughter. I knew it was a WILD theory...and a long shot, but I'll keep at it, and try to figure out who the HBP is. "K" wrote: > I've never been much of a 'shipper' where the kids are concerned but > I must admit I've taken a liking to Harry and Ginny. I doubt Harry's > future attraction to Ginny ;-) will have anything to do with his > mother/Ginny. I like the idea of a Harry/Ginny SHIP as well, and I was just thinking that his mother had red hair and green eyes, and so does Ginny. Harry never had his mother in his life, but Ginny could end up filling that hole. Of course, its hard to get too much into "adult" relationships and feelings, when we are talking about teenagers. From kreneeb at hotmail.com Wed Mar 16 04:13:42 2005 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (Kasey Baker) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:13:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robe Malfunction References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126131 OK, the subject is a little tongue-in-cheek but this really bugs me -- don't wizards/witches wear clothes under their robes? In COS, Ron and Harry get larger robes and shoes when they take the Polyjuice Potion to change into Crabbe and Goyle, but nothing else. What about pants, shirts, and undies? In OOP when Harry enters Snapes worst memory, James turns Snape upside down revealing his underwear. In GOF, after the World Quidditch Match, when the Death Eaters are on the loose, Draco taunts Hermione that she'll be up in the air showing her knickers. I don't get it! Angie kitten: I agree it's confusing, and if they don't wear clothing under their robes, impractical... to throw gas on the fire I'm reminded of the first book where, Ron politely asks Hermione to leave them (Harry and Ron) alone so they can change into their school robes... which implies, that they had to completely undress... at least to their unmentionables, to do it. kitten [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 16 04:17:07 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:17:07 -0000 Subject: Does Trewlawney Know About the Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126132 Angie wrote: > I find it interesting that the only two people who have witnessed > her predictions are Harry and DD. What is the mysterious > connection b/w her and them that "triggered" the prophecies? > > Valky: I had a theory for this waaay back when OOtP canon was young, which I called Prophecies Instrument. Basically, I supposed that a true prophecy was connected to it's witness by way of the witness being the vessel through which it can be fulfilled. In POA Harry hears the prophecy and soon after he is faced with a choice of paths before him, the one he chooses (sparing Pettigrew) is the manner by which the Prophecy can be fulfilled, and it is the same with Dumbledore, who also not long after hearing the Prophecy is faced with a choice in of what to do with Baby Harry. By the reasoning of my theory it is through DD's choices that Harry could ever fulfill the prophecy, if he chooses wrongly the world is doomed. Maybe this is also an explanation for the mystery of why Harry and DD heard Trelawneys Prophecies. The connection is between the witness and their own future life - inner being to the Prophecy . It also begs the question of wether the spy is a Prophecy instrument too. Aside: If the spy is a PI then that really leans the bar heavily towards Severus Snape being the Spy. Valky From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 04:21:09 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:21:09 -0000 Subject: It's Libatius (Was: News Flash! HBP covers released!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126133 catkind wrote: > I really want to see Snape teaching Harry DADA, purely because it > would make for good reading. They'd really have to learn to get on > better. And they could have major conflicts about the continuation or otherwise of Dumbledore's Army. And it would be maybe just a little bit dull to have yet another new Defence teacher. > > With a new Potions teacher Harry would be allowed into NEWT level and we could find out if he is actually any good at the subject. If Snape's still teaching Potions, it's going to take major corruption to get Harry into the NEWT class. > > While we're at it, Libatius could be the lion-man. Carol responds: I think Libatius is just the textbook author. Except for Gilderoy Lockhart, we haven't seen any teachers using textbooks they've written themselves. FWIW, I think the lion man is Felix Felicis and that he'll be the new DADA teacher, true to the pattern of a new DADA teacher for each book (a new character as well) and true to the cat connotations of the name. Yes, I know that Felix Felicis mean "happy of happies," but it's so close to Felis (cat) that it would nicely suit a man who resembles a lion. For that matter, Felix is as good a candidate as anyone for the HBP. As for Snape, I think he'll remain the Potions Master (with HRH as his pupils) until the end of Book 7. (It will take a bit of fudging, maybe, but not "major corruption" to get Harry into Snape's NEWT Potions class. He's probably better than he thinks he is, and class grades don't count--only NEWT scores.) If Snape survives into the epilogue and remains a good guy (in the sense of being allied with DD and the Order), I think he'll be rewarded for his services with the DADA position he's wanted all along. But it's all speculation till July 16, and maybe for another two years after that. Carol, who is behind on posting again and asks the List Elves to divide her posts this week by seven before concluding that she's overposting From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 16 05:13:49 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:13:49 -0000 Subject: New Wild HBP Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126134 Who is the HBP..? Take a look back through my (Valky's) posts and you'll see I just can't make up my mind. Today I have a new suggestion. It's based pretty largely on this clue. 1. The plot of HBP is related to a discovery Harry made in COS. To start with let's assume that the COS discovery relevant to the HBP plot is that 16 year old Tom Riddle learned how to possess someone through a very secret diary. OK, on that assumption lets build to a supposition that Tom learned the art of possession in the Chamber of Secrets. With me? Ok so leaping from that Platform lets imagine that Salazar Slytherin is the HBP. Lost you there, didn't I. :D I had better tell you how I got here. Remember we are standing on the assumption that Salazar and Tom shared their interest in possession. Tom was a Half Blood, who wanted nothing more than to rid himself of the "dirty blood" he inherited from his father. He changed his name, transformed himself to something not human, and put a few eggs in the basket of possession magic. It is easy to assume that the Diary was simply another part of the whole quest for immortality by Voldemort, but that might be a leap away from the true meaning of the diary. 16 year old Tom was infinitely more keen on the annihilation of "dirty blood" and all it's associations than he was on immortality. (I mean what 16 yr old doesn't think he is *already* immortal), chances are that the Diary preserving LV's 16 year old self has a lot more relevance to anti-mudbloodism than first appears. JKR was asked what would happen if Tom had succeeded in killing Ginny in Cos. JKR answered that Voldemort would be stronger, but that she would say nothing more. I wonder if what Jo was hiding here was Why Tom wanted to possess someone to begin with. Was it one of his early plans to rid himself of Riddle Blood? If the answer is yes then HBP Salazar Slytherin is but a small step away. If possession was the method in one of Toms early plans to become pureblooded wizard then maybe it was the same in Salazar. Maybe Salazar was a Half-Blood too. Valky Dipping a toe for now. From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 19:16:44 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:16:44 -0000 Subject: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126135 Pippin: > I wonder, are Dumbledore and the other OOP!characters really OOC with respect to the way JKR depicted them in previous books, or are they only out of sync with the pop culture stereotypes that the reader, with JKR's sly encouragement, superimposed on them? < Pippin: > Was there ever justification in canon for thinking that Ron's ambitions were as unrealistic as Sancho Panza's, or was that an expectation formed by Sancho himself and all the generations of loyal but hopelessly out of their depth sidekicks who followed in his footsteps? < Tinglinger: I didn't see any OOC representation of Ron. In fact if Ron indeed goes OOC in HBP, JKR has established a "reason" since Ron accioed the Brain of Unknown Thoughts in the MoM. Madame Pomfrey did warn that although Ron was completely cured, thoughts do leave deep scars. Only if Ron signs up for the South Beach diet in HBP would I think he was OOC. Pippin: > Whoever said that Molly was June Cleaver with a wand, or weren't there always indications that, kind and loving though she is, she has a tendency to play favorites and is a poor judge of character? < Tinglinger: There is plenty of canon describing Molly as a formidable mom - Hermione's threat of sending a letter to her sure put Fred and George back in line pretty quickly. Pippin: > Did canon ever show Ginny as a simple innocent, or did we think she was because, like Snow White, she accepted a gift from a stranger and was cast into a trance? < Tinglinger: I cannot imagine anyone assuming Ginny to be an innocent given the amount of backstory that JKR used in embellishing her character. Like how she got her skills in Quidditch or how she can lie with impunity. Pippin: > Did everyone in canon see the Marauders as angels with dirty faces, or did we, the readers, wish that characterization on them? < Tinglinger: Maybe some readers have been riding around Pirates of the Caribbean too much. No innocents here. Only Harry was suprised by his dad once all the facts (up to now) were revealed. Harry was not told all the facts, a now familiar pattern in the series. JKR was very carefully to say that Harry was like his dad in many ways but not completely. He was heroic in trying to save his family, as well as a legendary quidditch player, and i feel that I may not have been the only one snookered into believeing that James was ALWAYS a hero, which was clearly not the case. Pippin: > Did anyone promise us that Harry would always be clever enough to see through the traps the villain laid for him, or did we think he would because he's the hero? < Tinglinger: How boring a story is when the Hero always wins unchallenged. Pippin: > JKR did say that Dumbledore is the epitome of goodness. But once you get away from fuzzy platitudes and down to hard cases, is there consensus about what goodness means? Isn't it a matter of passionate and bloody dispute? < Tinglinger: And yet... I always thought it curious that his partner Nicholas Flamel died at age 666.... Pippin: > I think JKR snuck in another object lesson in the power of stereotypes. < Tinglinger: I think that JKR is not done with object lessons. I personally think that she will be dealing extensively with loyalty, outcasts, and freedom of the press in HBP, my theories on these matters which will be part of another post or five, (see below). Only a very gifted writer can toss around object lessons without being preachy. What some of the posters here take as OOC is really COC (complexity of character). I have not found any character in this series who acted inconsistently without some canon support, and I would be very curious to see some evidence in canon to the contrary. Tinglinger who has recently created a yahoo group for theories and plotlines for the Harry Potter series which you are welcome to check out at http:://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 05:55:03 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:55:03 -0000 Subject: Editing JKR (Was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126136 lupinlore wrote: > > > I wonder how much of the problems with OOTP could have been avoided if the editors had had the freedom to treat her manuscript with the same rigor they would have shown an unknown author's. > eggplant responded: > I don't see the problems with OOTP that you do, nor do most people I > think it's safe to say considering it's popularity. However you do > have a point, it must be a bit intimidating to be JKR's editor > > If I were her editor I would timidly suggest only two changes to OOTP: > 1) In the final exam Harry is looking at Venus and Orion, but Venus > can only be seen near sunrise or sunset and this was about midnight, > and Orion is a winter constellation and it was June. Change it to > Saturn and Polaris. > > 2) Cut out unnecessary adverbs, the book would be 10 pages shorter. Carol notes: But of course, the OoP we're seeing *is* the edited version, and *two* kinds of editing (developmental editing and copyediting) have already been done to the book before it's set in print. To be sure, an author can accept or reject a copyeditor's changes (even JKR probably has to abide by the developmental editor's suggestions). At any rate, it would be interesting (to me) to see the copyeditor's suggestions (which may be limited to mechanical corrections and tightened sentences). The problem is complicated by simultaneous American and British editions copyedited by two different people. In theory, JKR should approve the corrections in both, and if the American copyeditor catches something that the British editor misses (or vice versa), she should suggest (insist?) that the correction be made in the British edition, too. A careful comparison of the British and American editions would give *some* idea of the changes a copyeditor makes. Chances are they both automatically corrected some of the same errors, with differences in spelling, grammar, punctuation, and even vocabulary corresponding to the differences in American and British English. The point I'm making, though, is that even in the British editions, we're *not* seeing JKR's unedited writing. If we were, we'd be slogging through stuff like Nearly Headless Nick's Deathday song and we'd have read about the dog-loving woman (Mopsy?) who was cut out of GoF. The Edits section of JKR's website gives some idea of what the developmental editor has done to improve the books. (The copyeditor, working at the level of words and sentences, never gets any credit for his or her hard work.) BTW, I disagree with Lupinlore about the clumsiness of OoP (Ron's becoming Prefect made perfect sense to me; I never worried about whether Ron's Mirror of Erised dreams might come true; they were always more mundane and realistic than Harry's. If *Harry's* came true, I would call it a clumsy plot device.) I do agree that the book is too long. If I were the developmental editor, I'd have insisted that JKR cut out half the SPEW thread. But as a reader, I'm more concerned about what was *not* said--all the things that haven't been adequately explained and which, in consequence, we constantly debate. If it all fits together after I've read Book 7 twice, I'll consider it good writing. If not, well, there's always the revised edition, which JKR can put together with the help of her fans and an outstanding, HP-loving editor. Carol, who copyedits for a living in case you haven't guessed From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 15 13:51:08 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:51:08 -0000 Subject: 'Enough to be getting on with' - clumsy? (was Re: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. - Clumsy?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126137 Steve/bboyminn: > > Now to the /clumsiness/. The phrase (something to the effect of), > > '...enough to be getting on with...' was used just a little too > > often for my taste. It may be a very common 'Britishism', but to > > my American ears, once was enough, but every use after that was > > jarring. Lupinlore wrote: > I expect this is one of those cultural things. I also am an > American and found the "...enough to be getting on with..." to be > a curiously colorless expression, conveying little sense of the > immensity of the weight on Harry's shoulders. But, Dumbledore is > British, after all, and the expression may well convey something > different to British readers. As an English person, I think this is a typical example of understatement which is a very English/British trait. Someone will casually mention that they 'had a bit of bother with the car' the other day, and when you dig into it you discover that actually it broke down in the middle of nowhere, their mobile was flat, they had to walk miles to the nearest town where the garage was shut and essentially spent all day trying to sort it out and it cost them a fortune to get it fixed! I think it's all part of the stiff upper lip thing, we generally don't like to make too much of a fuss about things and just get on with it as best we can! Karen From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 15 13:28:38 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:28:38 -0000 Subject: Prefects (was Re: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126138 > > Chys: > > How is it clumbsy foreshadowing if he actually gets part of what > > he wants, having earned it himself? > > Lupinlore: > Because Ron most definitely HAS NOT earned it. Dumbledore himself > admitted that Harry was the one who deserved the badge. > > > Chys: > > As well, Draco is a person everyone would listen to. He's probably > > academically stable, too. Some people wonder why he got to be > > prefect. I say, why not? He probably earned it as much as Ron did. > > Lupinlore: > Because Draco is dangerous, malicious, and tyrannical. That is most > definitely NOT a person who has earned a position of authority, or > who should be given it even if he has. My understanding is that there are two prefects per house (one boy one girl) and that they are chosen by the Head of House in consultation with DD (or vice versa). Draco is Snape's favourite which is why he is the Slytherin male prefect. We don't like him but there's no doubt that he's a perfect Slytherin! There was a choice of 5 Gryffindors - HP ruled out by DD as he had enough responsibility to cope with, Neville is (or at least at the start of OOP) too timid, Seamus is too quick to jump to (often the wrong) conclusions without full posession of the facts, this leaves a choice between Ron and Dean. We don't really know a lot about Dean to explain why they chose Ron over him per se, but I don't think these two prefect choices were convoluted or forced by JKR. Karen From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 18:19:50 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:19:50 -0000 Subject: History at Hogwarts and the Founding Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126139 "nifer819" wrote: > > > Is there any evidence to indicate how old Professor Binns is? We > know from Nearly Headless Nick's deathday party in CS that he died > 500 years ago. Is it possible that Professor Binns is as old if not > older than Nick? Could it be that the sorting hat is not the only > one with first hand, err... first hat, knowledge of what happened at > Hogwarts at the time of the Founding Four's split? Chys: I thought it was 500 years before that, but, I don't know the time line. It was mentioned how long ago that happened in the book, right? Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 18:39:46 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:39:46 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126140 > > Because Ron most definitely HAS NOT earned it. Dumbledore himself > admitted that Harry was the one who deserved the badge. Ron receiving > it as he did represents extremely poor writing on JKR's part, an > attempt to fulfill a foreshadowing that we were told wasn't a > foreshadowing (i.e. that the mirror does not predict the future). > > > Because Draco is dangerous, malicious, and tyrannical. That is most > definitely NOT a person who has earned a position of authority, or who > should be given it even if he has. > Ah, that's cool. I agree with you on Draco, actually, but IRL I've seen people like that, who just through their tyrrany seem to have earned it for all their malicious efforts. (Mal-foy Mal-icious? NO! ...Yes. Yes. Yes.) If you were to compare Harry to Ron, Harry would deserve the badge absolutely (if for all the crap they've been through and what Harry's been getting them out of, he's developed more than Ron has over a short span of time.) If Harry were never around, Ron would probably get it on his own merits, which seem to fall to the background where Harry's concerned. It's like someone might compare and think that girls aren't strong just because the boys around them lift weights and have tons of muscles. It gets overlooked, in my opinion. Maybe I'm just noticing something that not many others have, but I can easily compare Ron to one of the persons I attented school with a long time ago, and just like that person, he should have gotten it for his own strength of character, even if he wasn't truly the better choice. There's also the fact that DD is all protective, and he believed that the responsibility would be too much for Harry while he was attempting to deal with everything horrid around him as an adult might, while everyone else was still concerned with the troubles of adolescence. In that, I think it helps Ron too, even if it does hurt Harry's feelings. I think we're going to disagree on this one, but that's fine, we have our own opinions. Chys From angelicfront5 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 18:25:18 2005 From: angelicfront5 at yahoo.com (Lauren Thibeault) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:25:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050315182518.59329.qmail@web14921.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126141 > catkind: > I really want to see Snape teaching Harry DADA, purely because > it would make for good reading. > > With a new Potions teacher Harry would be allowed into NEWT > level and we could find out if he is actually any good at the > subject. If Snape's still teaching Potions, it's going to take > major corruption to get Harry into the NEWT class. > > While we're at it, Libatius could be the lion-man. I agree with all that. I hadn't thought about the NEWT Potions class but you are right. In order for Harry to get into that level of a potions class he will require having a new teacher. I don't think even Snape could keep Harry out of DADA Newt Level classes. Harry has more than proven himself there. I think you have sealed my suspicion that Snape may finally get the position he so badly has wanted. Interesting thought that Libatius could be "lion-man" hmmm I do believe that the HBP is someone new so maybe........ angelicfront5 From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 19:33:37 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:33:37 -0000 Subject: Ron & the mirror (was Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines,) In-Reply-To: <004e01c52949$4431c130$0200a8c0@Sharon> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126142 Sharon said: Presumably - he still dreams about being > captain and winning the cup; and dreams don't come true until we work for > them! > If a dream comes true it was never really a dream- it was a goal. A Goal can be a desire so there's nothing wrong with what was portrayed in the book. And it's not inconceivable that such a goal could be achieved by Ron, if he applies himself further. I think Ron's well on his way to attempting to achieve his goals, he just gets overshadowed by Harry's cental plotline and his grand achievements, even if Harry does have the worst luck lately in the series: Siris dying, being banned from Quidditch, and so on... Chys From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Tue Mar 15 22:55:42 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Kate Williams) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:55:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "Prince"? (was Re: Snape as HBP) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050315225542.26762.qmail@web86707.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126143 John: > The word "prince" can also refer to the "chief" or "greatest" of > something. Satan, for instance, is sometimes called "the prince > of darkness." > > The way I see it, the term "Half-Blood Prince" pertains to some > sort of champion of half-bloods/the half-blood cause. Didn't Voldy > refer to DD as a "champion of mudbloods and commoners" (or words > to that effect)? Is it just me, or is there some sort of correlation > between these descriptions? Fitzov: Interesting thought. I didn't think of the biblical references to 'Price of Darkness', or perhaps more fittingly, 'Prince of Peace'. (I'm not much of a Church-goer, but I do vaguely remember this being part of a hymn that I used to sing at school). I don't hold with any theory that the 'Prince' is a self-styled, Minister or Chief or even Heir ... but a self-styled Champion, maybe. Maybe the 'Prince' is the new Champion of the united cause; one that rejects the pure-blood claim and wants to promote peace between the pure-blood, half- blood and 'mud-blood' wizarding ranks. Dumbledore might be a good contendor for this position, although I somehow think that his line is likely to be pure-blood. (I don't know why, it just seems fitting). Maybe the 'Champion' could be Harry's own father from beyond the grave. After all, Potter does not sound like a wizarding name and we know nothing about James' ancestry (he does not appear on Sirius' family tree). Maybe this is why James was an important target for LV, and the reason why Harry himself is so special. Thoughts? Fitzov p.s. I would be grateful if some kind person can tell me how to make my pen name appear at the head of my e-mails instead of my real name. I have played with the profiles until I am blue in the face, but still can't get it to work! Someday soon my colleagues are going to discover that I have another life and this could be rather hard to explain! (Answered offlist by an elf.) :-) Fitzov de Sullens Sirius "became more and more prone to what Mrs Weasley called 'fits of the sullens', in which he bacame taciturn and grumpy, often withdrawing to Buckbeak's room for hours at a time." From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 02:27:36 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 02:27:36 -0000 Subject: Ron and Percy (was Re: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126144 jones.r.h.j wrote: >>> I think the posters are incorrect about Hermione always being right in OOTP.>>> Chys: I think it just proves that Hermione is human, and is not above making mistakes. Perhaps JKR didn't want her to appear to be as much of a self-insert who it always correct and does the right thing, and managed her more as a true person in her own right, who is faulty like the rest of them? Inkling said: >>>Should Ron truly become his own man in book 6 it he may be able to see that Percy is not just a one-dimensional "git" but a complex person shaped by the same family pressures as Ron, and with the same need to prove himself. And that Percy, despite his overweening pride, has the same underlying love for family that all the Weasleys have.>>> Chys: I think Ron's main problem, aside from living in everyone else's shadow, is that he's lacking in Self Esteem; he thinks he's not good enough, little Ron, the runt of the litter. (Ginny doesn't count because she's a girl and so she has her own set of problems she's working her way steadily through as the books progress.) So perhaps DD was trying to help Ron along with assigning him the prefect position, or perhaps his HOH saw he had such potential for improvement and suggested it herself. The Prefect badge I do think he earned, but it could teach him some responsibility, and in accomplishing tasks that are important, give him some importance of self. Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 02:35:37 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 02:35:37 -0000 Subject: Wizard Persecution (was: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126145 If Salazar is really like that, against the taint of the blood entering his house in Hogwarts, then how did a half-blood become his heir? I know this has probably been asked a million times but I am curious. Chys From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 11:14:07 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:14:07 -0000 Subject: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432 / "Little Miss Perfect" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126146 Bonnie: > I absolutely love OOTP and respectfully disagree with Lupinlore's > list of "gripes" in post no. 126081. Sorry. :( Agreed. There's a lot going on in OotP, it bears careful reading. Bonnie: > >1. Dumbledore. > > I haven't noticed anyone remembering that one of the reason's DD > gave for his actions, was his belief that VV would be spying on > him through Harry. This is an important point. Much of Dumbledore's behavior is explained by it. Bonnie: > >2. Harry. > > The main reason Harry set the mirror aside and immediately put it > out of his mind was he didn't want to complain to Sirius and get > Sirius upset to the point he would do something dangerous. Harry > was trying to protect Sirius and decided immediately he wouldn't > use the mirror no matter how badly he (Harry) needed help. So he > just forgot about it. And this is an extremely important part of Harry's character. He refuses to tell McGonagall about the Blood Quill for similar reasons. Bonnie: > >3. Ron > I think Ron has earned the Prefect > badge more than any of the other Gryffindors. Easily, so far as we've seen. Which other Gryffindor boys have won awards for service to the school? Based on what we know, if DD can't choose Harry, he has to choose Ron. Bonnie: > >4. Ginny > > I think the image of Ginny that was distorted was our original > image. We *know* Harry's viewpoint of Ginny is distorted, Ron tells Harry that Ginny acts oddly around him in the second book. Besides, it hardly seems fair to expect a character to act the same at 14 as at 11. Bonnie: > >5. Hermione > > I don't know, she is obnoxious. But her part is essential. I > guess we'll have to wait and see. Hermione is a terrific character. She reminds me of of a couple of girls I went to high school with. It will be interesting to watch her character, and her relationship to the boys, develop in the next two books. Antosha: > 5) But Hermione ISN'T always right. Especially when it comes to > tactical decisions, she can be absolutely thick, the creation of > the DA notwithstanding. Her approach to promoting elfish > welfare--SPEW and the guerilla knitting campaign--are just pain > doomed, however noble her intentions. And her brilliant plan to > get away from Umbridge in the forest? Less than brilliant. She's > an extremely bright girl with a fine sense of logic (a talent > that she has pointed out is little prized in witches and wizards) > and an over-developed work-ethic, but > she, too makes mistakes, errors of judgment. Hermione and Dumbledore seem to both suffer from the vices of their virtues: They're both so used to being right--because they *are* almost always right--that they fail to notice when they're going down the wrong path. Dumbledore has just had his nose rubbed in his mistakes, I expect he'll be a bit more thoughtful about how he handles Harry in the future. Hermione made a couple of big mistakes in OotP (though I'd cut her some slack on Umbridge and the Forest, I thought that was a pretty good bit of improvisation, given how little she had to work with), but I'm not sure that she's had her epiphany yet--I really can't wait to see her in book 6 to find out. Richard Jones: > I think the posters are incorrect about Hermione always being right > in OOTP. > (4) The St. Valentine's Day Massacre. If Hermione had taken a minute > on St. Valentine's Day to tell Harry why she wanted to meet him > during his Valentine's Day date with Cho or to say that other people > would be there too, things might not have gone so badly when Harry > told Cho that Hermione wanted to see him that day. Moreover, since > Hermione had to have been planning the Rita Skeeter interview days or > weeks in advance, she could have told him sometime earlier what she > was planning. She was able to make time afterwards to have a nice > long talk with Harry about Cho. But the way she handled things, > everything blew up for Harry. H/H shippers might argue that she did > it on purpose to ruin Harry's relationship with Cho, but I like > Hermione and so I like to think that she would not be that devious > with Harry no matter how she felt. Hermione's behavior is odd here. I don't believe that she deliberately sabotaged Harry, but I also suspect that she didn't approve of Cho as a girlfriend for Harry, and that she didn't do everything she could have to help Harry out. Sure, she tells Harry what he did wrong, but she doesn't tell him how to fix it. I'm agnostic about ships, but even if Hermione doesn't want Harry as a boyfriend, she has plenty of reason for not wanting Harry to hook up with Cho--starting with Ginny. Ginny may have given up on Harry, but Hermione may not have given up on the idea of Harry/Ginny. If nothing else, Hermione probably knows Cho fairly well, both as another prefect, and as an academic rival. Cho doesn't seem to like her much and the feeling may be mutual. Hermione may simply not wish to have her best friend saddled with a girlfriend that she dislikes. So she doesn't sabotage the relationship (deliberately) but she doesn't help much, either. Richard Jones: > (5) Umbridge in the forest. At the end of the book, was Hermione > trying to get Umbridge killed? Granted, she was thinking on her > feet, but she knew the centaurs and spiders would kill an adult, > and there she goes leading Umbridge into the forest. Not many > people would object if Umbridge was killed, but did Hermione > really want to kill a human being? That human being? As opposed to having the the Cruciatus performed on her best friend and leaving Sirius hung out to dry? Probably. Hermione can be pretty ruthless if the stakes are high enough. Ask Rita Skeeter. Amiable Dorsai From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Wed Mar 16 00:04:41 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Kate Williams) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:04:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A trip beyond the veil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050316000441.15372.qmail@web86709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126147 OK, I know I risk being cut to pieces for discussing a subject that has already been done to death (metaphorically speaking) ... and thanks Steve for the links to posts, all of which I have read. However, as a new member I would like to put forward a theory that I think has not been discussed before, and I should be keen to hear members' views. The Veil: Sirius knew exactly what the Veil was and meant. In his brief career before imprisonment in Azkaban he was an Unspeakable and was involved in a research project studying the passage of life to death. Whilst at Grimmauld Place he was frustrated and bored and worried by the Prophecy, the contents of which had already been communicated by Dumbledore to OotP members. He knew that, in order to save Harry, someone would need to discover the secrets of LV's survival of death and find a counter-curse. Finding himself locked up in his parents' old house, Sirius resorted to an in-depth study of their books on Dark Magic: explaining why he spent 'hours at a time' locked up in Buckbeak's room apparently in 'fits of the sullens'. The episode at the Ministry of Magic presented Sirius with an opportunity. By 'goading' Bellatrix to 'kill' him, he could put into practice all of the counter-curses that he had been studying, and follow the path that LV had taken, beyond death and to a place of 'resurrection' where he could discover LV's secret and tutor Harry, whether though the mirror, or by finding a way back to real life. In support of the theory that Sirius planned his own 'death' it is notable that Sirius waits until Dumbledore has appeared before staging the fight with Bellatrix (probably in order to ensure that Harry is safe) and then 'allows' Bellatrix to hit him with (probably) a stunning spell before tumbling though the veil. There are also several other reasons why Sirius might have fancied a trip beyond the veil. The most obvious one is to contact James and Lily; but I wonder too if he didn't have a desire to contact other members of the OotP, in particular, the mysterious and beautifully-named Dorcas Meadows, who may very possibly have been Sirius' girlfriend. (She was stending next to Sirius in Moody's photograph, just as Lily was standing next to James.) The only person who knew of Sirius' plan was Lupin, which is why he acted so promptly to prevent Harry from following Sirius though the veil. He's 'd...' could stand for so many things. 'He's dead' is obvious. He's 'descended, disapparated, discovering...' etc., less so. Dumbledore would have been furious had he known of the risks Sirius was planning to take; and Harry himself could not know since there was a high likelihood that Sirius would die in the attempt. Clearly I am in SAD DENIAL, but it seems so obvious to me that Sirius' death is not clean cut. There is no body, no reason for Sirius to succumb to a wizard less powerful than himself, no reason for Sirius to goad Bellatrix into killing him, and no reason to wait until Dumbledore turns up to stage the final fight. And the veil itself is so mysterious, with voices clearly emanating from beyond, that it cannot be a final divider between life and death. I could go on with this theory for many boring pages, but would welcome members' views first. Please don't cut me down. One of these days I may well get around to reading all 100,000+ previous posts. Fitzov de Sullens From jltraveling at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 18:43:05 2005 From: jltraveling at yahoo.com (jltraveling) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:43:05 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126148 SSSusan previously: > Back to the Binns & Trelawney as teachers issue (not to mention > the hiring of Lockhart), I have to confess that I *don't* > understand how this fits with what we know of DD. > > > For me, this notion of crappy teachers being > hired/retained at Hogwarts bothers me more than those others. Hannah: > But then that brings us to the situation where teaching posts go to > people because they are DD's cronies or need protection from the > outside world, rather than having any actual ability or desire to > educate young people. I'm new here, hope you don't mind if I jump into the conversation. I think there are two basic issues in the hiring/retention of Hogwarts teachers. From the Puppetmaster!Dumbledore perspective, it seems that each of the teachers (with the possible exception of Binns, though time may tell) has something important to teach Harry and the rest. Not necessarily in the classroom, but the all-important real- life lessons that the omniscient Dumbledore knows will become crucial in the very near future. Sirius alluded to this point in GOF (p.226, US hardback edition), in his letter to Harry he states "...they're saying he's got Mad-Eye out of retirement, which means he's reading the signs, even if no one else is." If Dumbledore's entire point in hiring Moody was to have him available at the school when things went bad, couldn't this theory apply to other teachers as well? Snape, for example, may be a miserable jerk, but from all indications he is an admirable potion-maker as well as a member of the Order of the Phoenix. And he has saved Harry's life. As for Trelawney, Dumbledore has said that he does not think too highly of the subject of Divination. Nonetheless, the rare "real" prophecies that she does make are of crucial importance. Perhaps Dumbledore feels that allowing Trewlaney to continue teaching Divination is a justifiable means to the end of having her well-placed within the castle for the times that she does make a real prophecy. A bit of a consipiracy theory, I know, but from the perspective of Puppetmaster!Dumbledore, IMHO it is possible that the "bad teachers" are part of a well-placed network of Dumbledore supporters, all of whom have something important to contribute to the students. And in all cases, the teachers do seem, to me, to be interested in teaching, although their styles may leave something to be desired. Another possible theory in addition to or instead of the above, stems from the fact that, as has been mentioned previously, the actual number of adult wizards in the Potterverse is relatively low. Of those, how many are genuinely interested in teaching? What is the pay scale for Hogwarts teachers anyway, and what is the prestige factor? In the real world, teachers are often overworked, underpaid, and underappreciated. Maybe this is true in the books as well. Umbridge forced her way into the school because Dumbledore was unable to find a DADA teacher at all. Granted that post is rumored to be jinxed, but nonetheless, it may be difficult to find wizards who are qualified in their subject matter, called to the art of teaching, and able to present creative, entertaining lessons that the students enjoy, all at the same time. Maybe Dumbledore is simply doing the best he can given a very limited pool of available potential teachers. Just my random thoughts on the subject. Lisa From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 05:16:48 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:16:48 -0000 Subject: Robe Malfunction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126149 gelite67 said: >OK, the subject is a little tongue-in-cheek but this really bugs me - >don't wizards/witches wear clothes under their robes? >In COS, Ron and Harry get larger robes and shoes when they take the >Polyjuice Potion to change into Crabbe and Goyle, but nothing else. >What about pants, shirts, and undies? >In OOP when Harry enters Snapes worst memory, James turns Snape >upside down revealing his underwear. >In GOF, after the World Quidditch Match, when the Death Eaters are on >the loose, Draco taunts Hermione that she'll be up in the air showing >her knickers. >I don't get it! Now Bonnie: This has bugged me too. Also at the World Quidditch Match when the kids were getting the water, the one wizard was wearing a nightgown because he liked the fresh air. The robes must obviously be the zip up kind that close, not the open ones they wear in the movies. -Bonnie From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 16 06:27:40 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:27:40 -0000 Subject: Triwizard portkey / Only Vold can kill Harry? (was Re: Dumbledore the teacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126150 a_svirn wrote: >And finally why did LV bother with this tournament at all? If all he >needed was to arrange a portkey, surely Crouch jr. could arrange it >any time he wanted without going to such lengths in order to ensure >Harry's victory? One can turn ANYTHING into a portkey, can't one? >And Crouch-Moody had the whole year at his disposal. Lord V didn't want anyone to know that he was back so he didn't want Harry dead under suspicious circumstances, he wanted it to look like a tragic accident and the TWT was perfect cover. The 3rd task was the only one suitable (first too visible to all and 2nd supervised by the merpeople). and Pippin wrote: >Dumbledore knows that only Voldemort can kill Harry, >so why worry about dragons, merpeople and acromantulas? Ooh no! I don't think only Lord V can kill Harry at all. Only Harry can kill Lord V, and "neither can live while the other survives" but Harry can still be killed by other means, I'm sure. Had the DEs have got hold of the prophecy sphere, then they would have killed Harry. Malfoy only told them to be careful of him till they got the sphere. Karen From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 13:11:22 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:11:22 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. - Clumsy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126151 bboyminn: > For what it's worth, unless Harry is dead, I don't think Ron will > be Headboy. But he will still have, in the end, a very > outstanding career at Hogwarts, history-making outstanding. Lupinlore: > Well, as I've said in another post, how contrived the whole > development of Ron seems when all is said and done will depend > a lot on what happens in the next two books. If Ron does have > an outstanding career without his vision in the Mirror coming > literally true, then it will not seem nearly as contrived as it will > should he actually become Quidditch Captain AND Head Boy > AND winner of the Quidditch Cup. Assuming Katie Bell is either gone at the beginning of the next school year, or that she doesn't want the job, Ron is a pretty good candidate for the job of Captain. He loves the game, and probably knows more about it than Harry, plus Keeper is a pretty good position for the Captain. He can watch the rest of the game while doing his job, unlike the Seeker, who has to take time out from his primary job if he wants to see the rest of the team in action, Diggory and Charlie Weasley notwithstanding. Winning the Quidditch cup would not be odd, especially if he still has Harry as his Seeker. At this point, though, I have to agree that Head Boy seems like a stretch for Ron, especially given his less than stellar record as Prefect.. But who knows what next year will bring? Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 17:37:15 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:37:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh m In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126152 SSSusan: > As for the TWT, I think how one evaluates DD's behavior turns on > whether one believes that the name's having gotten into the cup and > then gotten out as a selection *truly* constitutes a binding > contract, regardless of HOW those things happened. I think the issue is settled by the fact that neither Maxime nor Karkaroff could think of a way to keep Harry out of the contest. If there was a way, one of them would have suggested it. >(Hard to imagine, a bit, I'll admit -- I mean, what if Harry had just > said, "No, thanks"?) I don't know--ask Marietta Edgecombe. Amiable Dorsai From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Mar 16 07:28:55 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:28:55 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. - Clumsy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42387AE7.1362.952DE1@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 126153 On 15 Mar 2005 at 17:32, eggplant9998 wrote: > If I were her editor I would timidly suggest only two changes to OOTP: > > 1) In the final exam Harry is looking at Venus and Orion, but Venus > can only be seen near sunrise or sunset and this was about midnight, > and Orion is a winter constellation and it was June. Change it to > Saturn and Polaris. The thing is from an astronomical point of view, I've analysed the astronomy and it's marginally possible given Hogwarts likely location for both these things to be seen in June. With Venus, the key is that Hogwarts is located quite a considerable distance north of the equator - and therefore in summer, sunset comes late and sunrise comes early. So even though Venus can be seen only within a relatively short period near sunrise and sunset, that can also be very late, or very early. When I did my astronomical analysis taking into accounts the likely dates that the astronomy exam took place and locations in the general area where Hogwarts most likely is, the 'best' match I found was where Venus rose at 2.54am. But if we're wrong on, say, the year, we could conceivably get an earlier time. Orion is more problematic - but it's just very marginally possible. While it is generally speaking a winter constellation, it does pop up over the horizon in June in the northern hemisphere - from the perspective of utility in the astronomy lesson, it's very marginal because it only *just* manages to rise on one of the likely dates before the sun rises and sweeps away its visibility. I agree, by the way, that it would have been better if other planets and constellations were used (although I would point out that Polaris is a star, not a constellation, and so is not a proper substitute for Orion - Ursa Minor might be a better choice), but in all honesty I'd be very surprised if most editors knew enough astronomy to pick problems like that - some would, but they can't be experts on everything. It's not the first astronomical problem to creep into the books either - Mars was *not* particularly bright (by its standards) at the time frame indicated in the Philosopher's Stone. The thing is - an author can't nitpick every little detail of course - and once a book goes out into the world, experts (or at least the informed and semi-informed) can probably find problems with all sorts of things. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 08:18:26 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:18:26 -0000 Subject: The Gleam - Joy/Pain of Love - was(...ways of destroying a man . . ) In-Reply-To: <42377869.24878.1633DB6@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126154 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > Shaun: > > Actually, the 'gleam' has always seemed rather straightforward ... > > ...edited... > > Voldemort seeks to take Harry's protection - and he succeeds. But > because ...that protection was love, and ... Voldemort could not > ... touch Harry because love flowed through his veins - it seems to > me obvious that Voldemort has taken on more than he expected. > Voldemort is now capable of comprehending love. He's probably not > aware of it - and I'm sure he would disdain it. But now he > understands it - and that means that it can be used to fight him. > > And that is the reason for the gleam - because Dumbledore now knows > that something about Voldemort has changed. > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought > Shaun Hately bboyminn: We have a strange combination of paradox and irony brewing here. Love in and of itself, independant of this particular story, is a strangely twisted emotion. Nothing has the power to bring you joy, and nothing has the power to bring you pain, like love; no greater joy, no greater pain. As so neatly works into Shaun idea, love is both a protection and a vulnerability, both in general, and specifically and especially relative to this story. To dare to love makes you vulnerable, and to realize love, brings you a sense of safety and security, if not in reality, then at least the feelings. I agree with Shaun to some extent. Voldemort is/was/can_be a little shortsighted. He saw only power and protection in Harry's blood. But in taking that blood, he has introduced a vulnerability. I'm with you up to that point, but what that vulnerability can be I think is still a great mystery. An even greater mystery is how it will all play out in the story. You say that because Voldemort now has Harry's /loving/ blood in him he unwittingly has the capability to comprehend or understand love. I think it is more likely that he can't or doesn't understand it any better now than he ever did nor will he ever, BUT he now has the capability to experience it. Many great intellects, great thinkers and philosophers have the capability to ponder the nature of love and come to an intellectual understanding of it. Yet sadly many of them don't have the capability to experience it. They live in their minds, not their hearts. It is in experiencing love that you come to see the magnitude of it's power. The extent of it's ability to create and destroy; the great giver of joy and/or pain. So, the only ammendment to what you said that I would make, is that Voldemort's downfall will not come from an understanding of love, but somehow from experiencing it. Ironically, for Voldemort, that will probably not be a pleasant experience with a pleasant outcome. So, I think the solution will come in the heart, not the mind. But what that resolution will be, how it will play out, I don't have a clue. The heartwrenching sight of a fallen comrade? Sudden compassion for a worthy adversary? A sudden realization of the horrible emotional emptiness his life and choices have created? The sudden swelling of emotion upon expriencing the compassion and mercy extended by an enemy? Sudden compassion for all his victims? ...??? Only time, God, and JKR know for sure. I think Voldemort's /gleam/ followed by great weariness, reflect the very conflict we are all having. He realized that Voldemort has introduced into himself both a protection and an unforeseen vulnerability. I think that much is clear, and we, or most, can agree on that. But, much like myself, Dumbledore realizes what a complex emotion love is, and is just as baffled as we are in trying to figure out how this vulnerability will manifest itself, or how he can use it to his advantage. Also, more as a side note, notice that both Sirius and Dumbledore react in the extreme as soon as they hear Voldemort used Harry's blood. This is before Harry has had a chance to explain why his blood was taken. So, there has to be some great significant to just the use of blood itself. The information about the transferred protection, the /gleam/, and realization of vulnerability all come after the initial strong reaction to blood being used. In that sense, we are really seeing two reactions here, one initially to the general use of blood, and a later one to the specific use of Harry's blood for a specific purpose. Although, I have no idea as to what the initial general reaction meant. Perhaps it is no more than a general reaction based in knowing that human blood is only used in the darkest of magic. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 09:40:13 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:40:13 -0000 Subject: Wizard Persecution - The Thing about History... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > >>Alla: > >Good quotes, Betsy, but I don't see how these three quotes > contradict the other one. To me the question is whether wizards and > witches were burned and I don't see the proof of it so far.< > Betsy: > That wasn't the question as I understod it. I reread upthread to > make sure I didn't totally misread things, and what was under > discussion was whether or not the Muggle persecution of wizards and > witches constituted a viable threat. You and Valky used the canon > of Harry's textbook to suggest that Muggles posed no threat to > witches and wizards. (They couldn't even burn them!) I brought up > the other quotes to show that magical folks did feel threatened by > Muggles. (It was a dark and dangerous time.) Which makes the > contradiction pretty clear. > > ...edited.. > > Betsy bboyminn: The thing about history is that it covers such a vast span of time. I've been struggling to determine where best to jump into this thread with a few points I think you should all consider. First, the peak period of persecusion of magical people was roughly the 15th to the 18th century (1400's to 1700's). In addition, real history tells us that many thousands of people WERE killed, and keep in mind that European population back then was relatively small. There are many historical accounts of hundreds (300 to 400) of magical people being killed at a single event. The point here is that even if muggles weren't very good at finding witches, they were still killing thousands, and being quite hysterically out of control were bound to get a few real magical people. Next point, the passage from the history book which Harry references while doing his homework under the bed sheets, is not dated. I believe it refers to /medieval/ witch burning, that covers roughly 500A.D to 1500A.D. Between the founding of Hogwarts (1,000A.D.) and the 1400's, the beginning of centuries of hysterical persecusion of magical people, which was sadly fueled by the growing influence of the Church, there was a lot of room for magical technology to develop. The Freeze Flame charm may have been developed as a response to many previous centuries of witch killings. Next, we have a /living/ example of a wizard being beheaded; Nearly-Headless Nick. If you read his poem on JKR's website, you will see that he was captured and beheaded by muggles. Also, how are we to assume all those members of the Headless Hunt lost their heads? Perhaps from falling off their horses (sarcasm)? JKR is attempting to create her universe in the apparent real universe. In her world, World Wars I and II occurred. The Queen is Elizabeth, her son is Charles, his sons are Harry and Willian, Paris is in France, London is in England, Glasgow is in Scotland, the sky is blue, the grass is green, and thousands of real live people were killed in the rise and fall of magical persecusion that has occurred repeatedly over the many many centuries. That's a fact; that's history. The only twist in her world is that many of those thousands killed were actually real magical people. So, I don't think we can dispute the dangers of magical persecution. Further, I don't think the existance of a Freeze Frame Charm at some point in history, cancels out all other history. Nor does it mean that every witch or wizard was in a position to be able to make use of that Charm. Perhaps you need a wand, and only witches and wizards who were able to retain their wands could use it. So, again, that single fact, the Freeze Frame Charm, does not cancel out all other history. Now to Salazar, I have already said that his fear of muggles was justified. At the same time, I will say the it was a prejudice, a true prejudice, and additionally, that to some extent, it was illogical and irrational, for reasons that other pointed out. If a muggle-born student betrayed the school to the muggles, the muggle would be very likely to also kill that muggle-born student. On the other hand, this would not be the first time in history when a parent had betrayed a child, especially when confronted with the power influence of the Church. In real life, friend betrayed friend, neighbor betrayed neighbor, family betrayed family; the corruption and betrayal on all levels was rampant. I don't see how you can discount the reality of magical persecution when it's in our history books as well as theirs. In addition, while Salazar had some real foundation for his belief, there is an undoubted element of prejudice, as well as an illogical irrational element to his beliefs. My original point was that we need to be carefull about distinguishing between what Salazar himself said and believed, and what other people are /claiming/ he believed. Remember that even the very best doctrines (Christianity, Islam, ...) have been and are being perverted toward selfish tyranical ends. So, I have no doubt that there is a degree of selfserving pervertion of Salazar's original beliefs. But at the same time, I make no claim that Salazar was completely innocent and/or completely free of malice. Yet, I must temper the negative about Salazar with the fact that he was well liked and close friends with the other founders, that prevents me from painting him as a total monster. Just trying to keep things in prespective, that's all. Steve/bboyminn From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 10:16:38 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:16:38 -0000 Subject: House-elves and James Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126156 Finwitch: Remember Dumbledore telling Harry that his father used it mainly to 'steal food from the kitchen' - what if he was studying House- elves instead, seeing if they were happy? (Not that he didn't take the food to poor Lupin in Shrieking Shack, but...) How would Harry know? he'd find a hand-written, unpublished work in a Potter Vault at Gringotts... or maybe Sirius' if Sirius was a co- worker... We'll see how Hermione with her SPEW reacts to that work, including interviews of Nitwit, Oddment and Tweak... (Since I found about house-elves, I thought those 'few words' were house-elf names, house-elves called there because of Harry Potter). Also - - Lily saying 'you're as bad as he is' - did she perhaps think that James was judging Snape etc. based on his family-history? If she was, she must have been proven wrong by Sirius (Black-family WAS of those pure-bloodists) - the Werewolf (who can't help what he is, either) -- so what was Peter? the rare Muggle-born accepted as a Death-Eater, because he sold the Potters to Voldemort? The perfect, submissive spy - who would EVER think that Muggle-born would be working for Voldemort? Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 10:28:17 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:28:17 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126157 A-svirn:: > > And finally why did LV bother with this tournament at all? If all he > needed was to arrange a port-key, surely Crouch jr. could arrange it > any time he wanted without going to such lengths in order to ensure > Harry's victory? One can turn ANYTHING into a portkey, can't one? > And Crouch-Moody had the whole year at his disposal. Finwitch: Well, I'd just say that one important thing is TIMING. They had to make *Harry*, ONLY and CERTAINLY Harry, grasp the portkey at a predictable time without letting anyone notice... preferably alone. Sure, if it could be anyone, why not change some other object - like the Sorting Hat - into a portkey... And of course, the third task weakened Harry, because he had been bitten by that Acromantula... And give Dumbledore a bit of slap: LOOK, old man, I got Harry from under your nose... Finwitch From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Mar 16 10:38:47 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:38:47 +1100 Subject: The Gleam in more detail (was Re: The Gleam - Joy/Pain of Love) In-Reply-To: References: <42377869.24878.1633DB6@localhost> Message-ID: <4238A767.7776.14303A6@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 126158 On 16 Mar 2005 at 8:18, Steve wrote: > bboyminn: > > So, the only ammendment to what you said that I would make, is that > Voldemort's downfall will not come from an understanding of love, but > somehow from experiencing it. Ironically, for Voldemort, that will > probably not be a pleasant experience with a pleasant outcome. Shaun: Yes, that would make a lot of sense to me. In saying Voldemort can now 'understand' love, I didn't really mean he'd understand it in the clear and open sense. Rather I meant that now it is something of relevance to him - when before it was not. bboyminn: > So, I think the solution will come in the heart, not the mind. But > what that resolution will be, how it will play out, I don't have a > clue. The heartwrenching sight of a fallen comrade? Sudden compassion > for a worthy adversary? A sudden realization of the horrible emotional > emptiness his life and choices have created? The sudden swelling of > emotion upon expriencing the compassion and mercy extended by an > enemy? Sudden compassion for all his victims? ...??? Shaun: I've also got no idea of how JKR would use this. I just have a very real feeling that this is something she will use. I finished a reread of Order of the Phoenix today, and near its end found another couple of potentially relevant quotes. Page numbers refer to British editions. "'There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!' snarled Voldemort. 'You are quite wrong,' said Dumbledore, still closing in upon Voldemort and speaking as lightly as though they were discussing the matter over drinks. Harry felt scared to see him walking along, undefended, shieldless; he wanted to cry out a warning, but his headless guard kept shunting him backwards towards the wall, blocking his every attempt to get out from behind it. 'Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness -'" (OotP, p.718) Contrast that with this. "Harry turned his back on Dumbledore and stared determinedly out of the window. He could see the Quidditch stadium in the distance. Sirius had appeared there once, disguised as the shaggy black dog, so he could watch Harry play he had probably come to see whether Harry was as good as James had been Harry had never asked him 'There is no shame in what you are feeling, Harry,' said Dumbledore's voice. 'On the contrary the fact that you can feel pain like this is your greatest strength.' Harry felt the white-hot anger lick his insides, blazing in the terrible emptiness, filling him with the desire to hurt Dumbledore for his calmness and his empty words. 'My greatest strength, is it?' said Harry, his voice shaking as he stared out at the Quidditch stadium, no longer seeing it. 'You haven't got a clue you don't know ' 'What don't I know?' asked Dumbledore calmly. It was too much. Harry turned around, shaking with rage. 'I don't want to talk about how I feel, all right?' 'Harry, suffering like this proves you are still a man! This pain is part of being human -'" (OotP, p.726) The two most relevant lines (in my view): "'Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness -'" (on Voldemort) "'the fact that you can feel pain like this is your greatest strength.'" (to Harry) Voldemort's greatest weakness is that he cannot conceive of something worse than death. Harry's greatest strength is that he can. And what that thing is, painful as it is, comes from love. Harry can love so he feels the pain of death intensely. Voldemort cannot love, and so he cannot conceive of that pain worse than death of grieving for someone you love. "'You do care... You care so much you feel as though you will bleed to death with the pain of it... You have now lost your mother, father, and the closest thing to a parent you have ever known. Of course you care.'" (OotP, p. 726 (extracted quote). This is what Harry can conceive that Voldemort cannot - or could not. And, I think, that some fraction of that is now within Lord Voldemort. He took it when he took Harry's blood laced with the love of his mother as a protection. Harry's greatest strength now sits within the blood of his darkest enemy. "'`I cared about you too much,' said Dumbledore simply. 'I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed. In other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we fools who love to act.'" (OotP, p. 739) 'we fools who love' - Dumbledore's insight into what Voldemort thinks of those who are capable of loving. How will he deal with this if it's now a part of him? To him it's a weakness, so he will fight it. It can't aid him if he fights it, it would seem to me. Perhaps Voldemort will fall - will be destroyed - because he rejects as weakness that that could make him stronger. He embraces his greatest weakness and disdains Harry's greatest strength. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From juanitatighan at frontiernet.net Wed Mar 16 09:42:50 2005 From: juanitatighan at frontiernet.net (Jane Jordan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 03:42:50 -0600 Subject: Robe Malfunction References: Message-ID: <003e01c52a0c$85195050$0200a8c0@domain.invalid> No: HPFGUIDX 126159 Angie: > OK, the subject is a little tongue-in-cheek but this really bugs me -- > don't wizards/witches wear clothes under their robes? I don't know about those scenes, but I remember that Ron and Harry would usually put their robes on over their muggle garb. Jane From cat_kind at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 11:31:22 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:31:22 -0000 Subject: The theory of Harry Potter symbolising the Path of Alchemical Liberation. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126160 > > Catkind wrote: Sorry if I sound a bit confrontational here, Hans. > > I'm genuinely interested in your posts because I think there's > > things about the HP characters in there that would make for > > interesting discussion if only I could figure out what you're > > actually saying. I woulden't be replying otherwise. > > > KarentheUnicorn's reply: (snip) > Heck if I wanted to be silly...and of course I can...I can compare the > story to the 3 little pigs if I want. 3...the three main Characters > Hermione, Ron, and Harry. Who is in the straw house, who is in the > stick house..who is in the brick house....hey..Who is the big bad > wolf?? For that matter...where did that pig buy his bricks anyway? > (laughs) Ok let's get back on topic. > > For me personally I really don't like comparing the Harry Potter > books to a religion or a belief system...of course some have taken > up the banner and turned the potter universe into their own > religion...while I really have no problem with that per say as I'm > a big fan too and can be a little excited and like stuff to an > extreme sometime, I just don't see how the comparison > really...meh..tells me anything. (snip) catkind: Actually, I think it can be fascinating to make comparisons, as long as we remember that they are just that, comparisons, and not maps of JKR's brain. So who is the Big Bad Wolf? And which pig is which? If Harry is the hero, then presumably his house is built of bricks. Voldemort would of course be the wolf. Aha! But doesn't that mean we should expect two of our heroes' houses to fall down? Will two of our heroes give in or be defeated by LV? Or even be converted? Or has the fairytale already been fulfilled in OotP when both Hermione and Ron were downed in the Dept of Mysteries? But how could their defeats there be attributed to the use of inferior materials in housebuilding? And how is the wolf to be defeated? Firstly, we need strong walls around us. Learn Occlumency, Harry! We have to outwit the wolf, and never do what he expects. Then the wolf will try to come within our walls and fight on our own terms, and we are to leave a kettle of boiling water under the only available entrance. So perhaps the way to defeat LV is to set some kind of trap for him? Let him think he is possessing Harry, when in fact someone else is lying in wait for him? Or here's another theory. The wolf is Draco Malfoy, and our heroes' houses fall down when they fall to his taunting and lose their tempers. Ron is easily needled, Harry not so often, Hermione with her brick house is protected by her rational nature. Can Hermione set a trap for Malfoy to give him a final comeuppance? And we might think about what our three piggies have built their houses out of. Hermione, it is clear, builds her house out of learning. What about Ron? Perhaps his house is built of jokes and fun? Harry's bricks must be love, as that seems to be the driving force behind his resistance to LV. The point I'm trying to make is that even such a silly comparison as this can give us pointers to analysing the characters in the books, to seeing the past in a different light, and to speculating about the future of the story. Narrative causality rules! catkind From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 10:31:04 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:31:04 -0000 Subject: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126161 Lupinlore: > > 2) Harry. he seemed to have curious (and, some suspect, > > authorally convenient) lapses in smarts, particularly not > > bothering to open the mirror > > Hickengruendler: > Yes, he had curious lapses in smarts. That's because he's a boy who > acts before he thinks. OotP however, was the first book in > which Harry's behaviour had some real consequences. However, to be > fair, Sirius gave Harry the present half a year earlier, and then > Harry forgot it. It's not a surprise, that he didn't think of it at > such a moment, where he couldn't think clearly for obvious reasons. Also don't forget that he forgot about Snape before jumping to the conclusion of using the fire. While the mirror seems obvious I don't think it was to Harry. I mean on your first reading did you think about this until the end of the book? I know I didn't think something like "oh what about that package Harry got, I wonder if he can use that". I'm sure it was also a shorter amount of time for us than 6 months, also. Given how freaked out he was, I would be surprised if he did think of it. I would have bought him remembering in the earlier fire message as it was a much shorter time frame and he had a couple days to think about it. Brent From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 12:47:35 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:47:35 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: <20050315182518.59329.qmail@web14921.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126162 > > > catkind: > > I really want to see Snape teaching Harry DADA, purely because > > it would make for good reading. > > *more snipping* > > >angelicfront5 wrote: > I agree with all that. I hadn't thought about the NEWT > Potions class but you are right. In order for Harry to > get into that level of a potions class he will require > having a new teacher. I don't think even Snape could > keep Harry out of DADA Newt Level classes. Harry has > more than proven himself there. I think you have > sealed my suspicion that Snape may finally get the > position he so badly has wanted. > *snip* Tammy: I think it's very probable that Snape could go to DADA. It also makes for some excellent plot twists. The DADA professor has put Harry into danger in every book (SS - Quirrel!Mort tried to kill him, COS - Lockhart tried to erase his memory, POA - Werewolf tried to kill him (intentionally or unintentionally), GOF - Crouch!Moody enters him into tournament and tries to have Voldemort kill him, OOTP - Umbridge sends Dementors after him). If Snape gets the DADA job, he can put Harry into danger by compromising him to Voldemort somehow. It sets up a wonderful plot where Snape either is evil or appears to be evil and is really just spying. Snape gets fired (obviously) and goes off to Voldemort for either more spying or more real evil stuff in Book 7. Just because we don't see him at the school doesn't mean we wouldn't see him or have some huge things revealed about him in the course of the book. Tammy, who still hasn't figured out if she wants Snape to be bad or good. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 16 13:22:42 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:22:42 -0000 Subject: "Little Miss Perfect" (Was Re: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126163 Richard Jones wrote: > I think the posters are incorrect about Hermione always being right > in OOTP. Hannah: I agree, Richard, and I wanted to respond to some of the evidence you give. Richard Jones wrote: > (1) Hermione's Guerrilla Hat Campaign. Hannah: Yes, Hermione hasn't really thought it through at all. She's so carried away by her sense of righteous indignation that she refuses to use her customary logic. I think here Hermione is showing why she's a Gryffindor and not a Ravenclaw - rushing into things without thinking them through, showing a 'saving elves' complex... Richard Jones: > (2) The D.A. List jinx. If Hermione had simply told the students > about the jinx, no one would have told Umbridge. Think about it. If > she was relying on the students' honesty all along, why bother > putting a jinx on the list in the first place? > So the question is: was the purpose of the jinx to protect the > students and the list, or was it just a nasty little trick to catch someone? Hannah: I think it was intended to serve both purposes - protecting those on the list and revealing the identity of a traitor so they knew not to trust them again. The other members - or Hermione at least - would be able to see at a glance that they had been betrayed, and start warning the others and preparing excuses and alibis. The jinx wasn't meant as a deterent - they were relying on the members' honesty - rather as a warning system for the others. But Hermione didn't think it through very well, as you say. Once the spots appeared on Marietta's face, she was kept away from the other students, and so they didn't see. However, it did make Marietta reluctant to go on giving details once the spots appeared, so it did work to some extent. Richard Jones: > (3) Umbridge getting the D.A. list. Hermione apparently "left [the > list] behind" "pinned" to the wall of the Room of Requirement, to > quote the book. Why in the world did she leave it pinned to the > wall? Why bother taking attendance at the meetings or anything else > connected to the list? Why didn't she take it and leave it somewhere > hidden in her dorm room? Hannah: I don't know if this counts as Hermione messing things up, though it's a good reminder that she isn't omniscient. The consequences of the list being there were not, IMO, forseeable for Hermione, so I don't think she can be blamed for it. I don't even know if Hermione was wrong to leave it in the Room of Requirement. How safe would the dormitories be - I'm sure Umbridge could search them. There are also the two unnamed Gryffindor girls who sleep there but aren't in the DA. Leaving it in the RoR actually makes sense, because even if someone else got in there at another time, the Room wouldn't provide the same things. It was probably the safest place she could leave it. The reason for having it prominently displayed at meetings was probably to remind them that they'd signed up to it, and of their oath not to tell anyone. Richard Jones: > (4) The St. Valentine's Day Massacre. Hannah: I don't think we can blame this on Hermione. What went wrong between Harry and Cho was down to Harry and Cho, and it wouldn't have worked out anyway. Things were already going badly before Harry mentioned his meeting in the pub. It wasn't Hermione's place to tell Harry exactly what to say to his girlfriend beforehand, and if she had, he'd probably have bitten her head off. It was up to Harry to square things with Cho, and it's not Hermione's fault that he's not clued up enough to manage that. Richard Jones: > (5) Umbridge in the forest. At the end of the book, was Hermione > trying to get Umbridge killed? Granted, she was thinking on her > feet, but she knew the centaurs and spiders would kill an adult, and > there she goes leading Umbridge into the forest. Not many people > would object if Umbridge was killed, but did Hermione really want to > kill a human being? Hannah: No, I don't think she was trying to get Umbridge killed at all. I think Hermione's mistake here was her arrogance, and her lack of understanding and empathy for other magical creatures. Exactly the same problems that underly her SPEW campaign. Hermione thought that the centaurs would help them out (and she had some grounds, given Firenze's intervention in PS). She reckoned that they would capture Umbridge, allowing her and Harry to get away. This whole incident, IMO, is the ultimate example of Hermione getting it very wrong. Not because she wanted to kill Umbridge, because I don't think she did, but because she completely misjudged the situation and forgot all that she knew about the centaurs and their beliefs. Hermione assumed the centaurs would rush to their aid, even though they were already virtually at war with the Hogwarts humans, and despite their belief that they shouldn't intervene in human matters. She then went and antagonised them by saying the wrong thing. I feel sorry for Hermione here because she was thinking on her feet and doing the best that she could. But, as Richard Jones says, it is evidence that Hermione does not 'get everything right' in OotP. Hannah From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 16 13:39:40 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:39:40 -0000 Subject: Ron and Quidditch (was Re: Umbridge, detention, scars etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126164 > Lupinlore: > > If Ron does have > > an outstanding career without his vision in the Mirror coming > > literally true, then it will not seem nearly as contrived as it will > > should he actually become Quidditch Captain AND Head Boy > > AND winner of the Quidditch Cup. Amible Dorsai wrote: > Assuming Katie Bell is either gone at the beginning of the next > school year, or that she doesn't want the job, Ron is a pretty > good candidate for the job of Captain. He loves the game, and > probably knows more about it than Harry, plus Keeper is a pretty > good position for the Captain. He can watch the rest of the game > while doing his job, unlike the Seeker, who has to take time out > from his primary job if he wants to see the rest of the team in > action, Diggory and Charlie Weasley notwithstanding. Hannah now: Katie Bell is one year older than Harry, so will still be at Hogwarts - and presumably on the team - in HBP. But I would say that Harry, not Ron, is the obvious choice for captain, and, these being the 'Harry Potter' books, I'm sure it's Harry that will get the honour. Harry is a very talented Quidditch player, and has been on the house team since the first year - a huge achievement in itself. Ron, however, is a mediocre player who's already had a bad year where he's struggled to motivate himself, let alone a team of people. Although he's supported Quidditch for longer than Harry, he has four years less playing experience on the team. Harry has also already shown leadership skills, and many of those on the team are DA members, so they are used to following him. Even if Ron was captain, I think the others would turn to Harry naturally, creating problems for Ron. As for Harry being a Seeker, I don't think it matters. Charlie Weasley and Cedric Diggory were both captains while playing Seeker, and they weren't as good as Harry. The very nature of Quidditch means that the captain can only have a limited influence whilst play is actually going on. The role of the captain seems more to do with pre-match preparation; tactics, training, and motivation, rather than on-pitch leadership. I very much doubt Ron will be captain or Head Boy. But I agree with bboymin that he will have a successful school career. I just think that he will discover there are other ways to do that without having to be Head Boy, or captain of Quidditch. Like helping to save the world from the forces of evil. Hannah From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 16 14:01:23 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:01:23 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: <20050315182518.59329.qmail@web14921.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126165 catkind: > > With a new Potions teacher Harry would be allowed into NEWT > > level and we could find out if he is actually any good at the > > subject. If Snape's still teaching Potions, it's going to take > > major corruption to get Harry into the NEWT class. angelicfront5: > I hadn't thought about the NEWT Potions class but you are right. In > order for Harry to get into that level of a potions class he will > require having a new teacher. SSSusan: I'm not convinced a new Potions teacher would be necessary in order for Harry to be in the NEWT-level class, though I used to think so. Several people (Caius? Carol?) have discussed this here & elsewhere, and the point has been made that the *only* requirement for getting into NEWT-level Potions appears to be getting a high enough score on the OWL exam. IOW, that whole history between Harry & Snape -- all those messed up Potions, points docked, zeros -- will mean *nothing* towards Harry getting into NEWT-level Potions class. We know that Snape worked on the students from the beginning of 5th year, telling them what standards he expected, chastizing most of them for not being anywhere near those standards. Here is what Snape said in the first lesson of 5th year: ********************* 'Before we begin today's lesson', said Snape, sweeping over to his desk and staring around at them all, 'I think it appropriate to remind you that next June you will be sitting an important examination, during which you will prove how much you have learned about the composition and use of magical potions. Moronic though some of this class undoubtedly are, I expect you to scrape an "Acceptable" in your OWL, or suffer my... displeasure.' His gaze lingered this time on Neville, who gulped. 'After this year, of course, many of you will cease studying with me', Snape went on. 'I take only the very best into my NEWT Potions class, which means that some of us will certainly be saying goodbye.' His eyes rested on Harry and his lip curled. Harry glared back, feeling a grim pleasure at the idea that he would be able to give up Potions after fifth year. 'But we have another year to go before that happy moment of farewell', said Snape softly, 'so, whether or not you are intending to attempt NEWT, I advise all of you to concentrate your efforts upon maintaining the high pass level I have come to expect from my OWL students.'" [OoP, ch. 12] *********************** We also have this information from McGonagall: 'And I must tell you that Professor Snape absolutely refuses to take students who get anything other than "Outstanding" in their OWLs, so-' [OoP, chapter 29] But Snape doesn't grade the OWL exam. He, presumably, accepts the grades given to him by the examiners. We know Harry thought he actually might have passed, and given Harry's confidence level about Potions & the exams in general, that might very well be an *under*estimate of how well he'd actually done. Also, the standards Snape holds to in his own classroom just might be higher than the standards to which the examiners hold students, might they not? If that's the case, then achieving the "O" Snape requires might be possible for more students than think they can achieve it. So we shall see, but I'm not writing off the possibility that Harry actually managed to earn admittance into Snape's NEWT-level Potions class, though I think JKR would be wise to explain it carefully so it doesn't feel like a "major corruption," as catkind suggested. Siriusly Snapey Susan From alexpie at aol.com Wed Mar 16 15:56:40 2005 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:56:40 EST Subject: HP and the Work of the Editors Message-ID: <1c1.24342846.2f69b138@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126166 Steveboy wrote: > Further, I doubt that /one/ editor proofreads cover to > cover and makes the corrections. I suspect in a rush to get it out, a > team of editors are working on sections of the book, and that makes > things like repetative phrases harder to catch. > > Editors don't proofread; proofreading is a separate process done after the copy editor has finished and the pages are set. Manuscripts are almost never divided amongst editors, let alone a "team" of them (unless it's something styleproof, like a product manual), because each editor imparts his or her own style to the ms. Finally, JKR--and any other author--has the right to reject corrections/edits. I am annoyed by Ron's "groans of longing", which show up far more often that is reasonable and, as an editor, would certainly have queried them My guess as to why they're on a longer pub schedule is that JKR has her hands rather full at the moment! Barb LES, NYC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Mar 16 15:57:07 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:57:07 -0000 Subject: Ron and Quidditch (was Re: Umbridge, detention, scars etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > Hannah now: > > Katie Bell is one year older than Harry, so will still be at > Hogwarts - and presumably on the team - in HBP. But I would say > that Harry, not Ron, is the obvious choice for captain, and, these > being the 'Harry Potter' books, I'm sure it's Harry that will get > the honour. > I agree that seems the most logical progression. JKR has sent us some curve balls, however. I wouldn't be stunned by anything at this point. However, if I had to bet I would tend to agree with you. I think it more likely that Harry will become Captain than that Ron will. The main arguments against him being Captain are A) that DD might feel it would be too stressful and; B) some feel that Seeker is not a good position for a Captain. As you point out, we have plentiful precedent for Seekers being Captains, so I think we can safely dismiss that argument out of hand. As for the first argument, I think being Captain would be different than being Prefect. The responsibilities would be more limited, and Quidditch per se is something Harry enjoys very much. > Harry is a very talented Quidditch player, and has been on the house > team since the first year - a huge achievement in itself. Ron, > however, is a mediocre player who's already had a bad year where > he's struggled to motivate himself, let alone a team of people. > > Although he's supported Quidditch for longer than Harry, he has four > years less playing experience on the team. Harry has also already > shown leadership skills, and many of those on the team are DA > members, so they are used to following him. Even if Ron was > captain, I think the others would turn to Harry naturally, creating > problems for Ron. I think this is true. Ron showed a capacity for hard work and dedication, but he certainly has not demonstrated any great genius for Quiddicth maneuvers or Quidditch strategy. Some make much of Ron's "strategic skills" at chess. The problem is we don't know if chess skills translate into Quidditch coaching/planning skills (they certainly wouldn't in real life, you don't see a football team trying to hire Bobby Fischer or Garry Kasparov). > I very much doubt Ron will be captain or Head Boy. But I agree with > bboymin that he will have a successful school career. I just think > that he will discover there are other ways to do that without having > to be Head Boy, or captain of Quidditch. Like helping to save the > world from the forces of evil. > At this point I think the whole head boy situation is entirely up in the air. I see the following candidates: 1) Ron. He certainly hasn't shown any Head Boy potential so far, but being a prefect may put him on track for it, although I would find it contrived; 2) Harry. Probably the most logical choice, although DD may well not want to overburden him. Then again, DD may feel he made a mistake thinking that way, it's hard to tell from his speech in OOTP. Also, Harry may very well not want to be Head Boy even if DD offers it to him. 3) Draco. I can't think of any reason whatsoever this would come about (barring DD dying and a completely new administration coming into power), except that a lot of people think it would make for an interesting set of conflicts. I think it would be silly, myself. 4) Ernie MacMillan. This name comes up a lot in the fandom. Once again I can't really think of any good arguments for him other than that he seems vaguely Percy-ish. Lupinlore From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Mar 16 16:08:17 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:08:17 -0000 Subject: "Little Miss Perfect" (Was Re: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > > Richard Jones: > > (3) Umbridge getting the D.A. list. Hermione apparently "left > [the > > list] behind" "pinned" to the wall of the Room of Requirement, to > > quote the book. Why in the world did she leave it pinned to the > > wall? Why bother taking attendance at the meetings or anything > else > > connected to the list? Why didn't she take it and leave it > somewhere > > hidden in her dorm room? > > > Hannah: > I don't know if this counts as Hermione messing things up, > though it's a good reminder that she isn't omniscient. The > consequences of the list being there were not, IMO, forseeable for > Hermione, so I don't think she can be blamed for it. > Hickengruendler: I will go further and say that she didn't leave the list in the room, or at least there isn't any evidence for it. Umbridge said, that the room delivered the evidence. It's the Room of Requirement. The list probably appeared in the room, because it was what Umbridge needed. It is nowwhere said that the list was left behind. And to add something: Even if the list was left behind, it was not only Hermione's mistake. Okay, she was the organizer and therefore probably most responsible. But that doesn't mean that the other students couldn't have reminded her of the list. Hickengruendler From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Mar 16 16:15:30 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:15:30 -0000 Subject: Prefects (was Re: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126169 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: Hickengruendler: I actually agree that Ron deserves to be prefect, if it can't be Harry. But > Seamus is too quick to jump to (often the > wrong) conclusions without full posession of the facts, I find this particular reason unconvincing. Sure, Seamus didn't believe Harry in OotP, but Ron didn't believe him in GoF. Therefore it's not that he hasn't the same flaw. And look how often Ron prejudges people just because he didn't like them. I love Ron, but I think if jumping to conclusions without full posession of the facts is a reason why Seamus didn't get the badge, than Ron doesn't deserve it either. I think Ron was make prefect because he proved himself countless of times. It were not Dean and Seamus who risked their lives to stop evil on a regular basis in the first three, and who loyalli fought at Harry's side. Hickengruendler From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 16 16:52:06 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:52:06 -0000 Subject: Ron and Quidditch/ Head Boys (was Re: Umbridge, detention, scars etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126170 Lupinlore wrote: > At this point I think the whole head boy situation is entirely up in > the air. I see the following candidates: > > 1) Ron. He certainly hasn't shown any Head Boy potential so far, > but being a prefect may put him on track for it, although I would > find it contrived; > > 2) Harry. Probably the most logical choice, although DD may well > not want to overburden him. Then again, DD may feel he made a > mistake thinking that way, it's hard to tell from his speech in > OOTP. Also, Harry may very well not want to be Head Boy even if DD offers it to him. > > 3) Draco. I can't think of any reason whatsoever this would come > about (barring DD dying and a completely new administration coming > into power), except that a lot of people think it would make for an interesting set of conflicts. I think it would be silly, myself. > > 4) Ernie MacMillan. This name comes up a lot in the fandom. Once > again I can't really think of any good arguments for him other than that he seems vaguely Percy-ish. Hannah now: What do we know about past Head Boys? They seem a mixed bunch: Tom Riddle - prefect, academically brilliant, popular, saved school from closure (OK, he was an evil Dark Lord in training, but no one knew that at the time). James Potter - not a prefect, academically strong, popular, good at Quidditch, saved life of fellow student, but for at least his early school career had a reputation for being a prankster and even something of a bully. Bill Weasley - prefect, academically strong, apparently not 'stuffy' in attitude. Percy Weasley - prefect, academically strong, obsessed with keeping to the rules and respecting authority. They are all wildly different, which makes it hard to say exactly what criteria are looked for in a Head Boy. Being a prefect seems to help, but obviously isn't an absolute requirement. All are academically able. James and Tom both committed acts of bravery/ 'special service,' which probably helped their cases (especially James'), but can't practically be a requirement. A responsible attitude and dislike for rule breaking would logically be the most important, but that does make the selection of James and possibly even Bill (who clearly isn't the same ilk as Percy) a bit of a mystery. Of the most likely candidates listed by Lupinlore, I would agree that all have a good chance. I think it is unlikely that Head Boy is going to be a minor character, given the emphasis placed on it in earlier books. I'd say Ron had a better chance of being Head Boy than he does Quidditch Captain, and perhaps Harry will be the latter while Ron gets to be Head Boy. Draco is another possibility, though it would seem a bit irrational unless he does become in some way 'redeemed' over the course of HBP. I've just read too many 'Draco is Head Boy and Hermione is Head Girl and they fall in love' type fanfictions to have any enthusiasm for Draco as Head Boy, though that's not a canon reason for him not to get it. Ernie does seem to have some of the characteristics of Percy, and he is likely to do well in his OWLs, as well as being responsible, and a prefect. It will depend on how he's developed in HBP. If we see him taking a more central role, getting to know the trio better, and perhaps being helpful in whatever crisis hits the school this year, I'd say that was an indication he's in with a chance. I suppose we should also consider the Ravenclaw male prefect, Terry Boot. He could be in with a chance, though it seems unlikely to me since we know less about him than we do about Ernie. If it's going to be anyone outside Gryffindor or Slytherin, I think it has to be Ernie. I would tentatively add one other good candidate to the list, and that would be Neville. He is beginning to come out of his shell and prove himself, and I would hope that DD will support that. I still believe the 'other prophecy boy' has an important part to play. I think it would be a JKR-ish twist to have Neville announced as Head Boy, and something which has been foreshadowed (if you're keen on foreshadowing) right from the conclusion of book one. Overall, I agree with Lupinlore that it is very up in the air at this stage. The events of HBP may make it a bit clearer, but even then, I suspect she may still surprise us. Part of me thinks 'oh, it'll obviously be Harry, his not being made prefect is just a decoy, as well as making his Head Boyship easier to swallow for us cynical readers.' But the other part thinks; 'but it seems so obvious and JKR is rarely obvious.' I do think that, whoever it is, the choice for Head Boy will be an important feature of book 7. Hannah From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 17:00:12 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:00:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh m In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126171 A-svirn: >why did LV bother with this tournament > at all? If all he needed was to arrange > a port-key, surely Crouch jr. could > arrange it any time he wanted without > going to such lengths in order to ensure > Harry's victory? One can turn ANYTHING > into a portkey, can't one? And > Crouch-Moody had the whole year > at his disposal. If I were JKR's editor for GoF I would suggest Voldemort say something like this to his death eaters in the graveyard: "There is a powerful spell preventing port keys from working at Hogwarts but during the Tri Wizard Tournament people would be arriving from all over the world so I knew the spell would have to be temporarily removed, if not in the castle itself at least on the grounds. It also amused me to have Harry Potter whisked away to his doom at the very instant he thinks he's going to attain his greatest triumph. And I did it right under Dumbledore's nose with the entire world watching, people can now see with their own eyes which one of us is more powerful." Now I just need to just figure out why anybody would want to watch the second and third tasks. Staring at a hedge and the unruffled surface of a lake lacks a certain visual appeal. Eggplant From riberam at glue.umd.edu Wed Mar 16 17:09:41 2005 From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (maryblue67) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:09:41 -0000 Subject: A thought about wizard-muggle relations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126172 I recently claimed back my copy of Philosopher's Stone which a friend had borrowed for ages, and was really looking forward to reading it again. And there, at the very first page, I had an interesting thought about wizard-muggle relations. I don't have a theory or anything, this is just a rhetoric question. But any comments, theories or analyses are welcome. So, here is the issue. At the very beginning of Philosopher's Stone we learn that the Dursleys don't want to have anything to do with the Potters. In particular, they know that they have a little child as well, and they don't want Dudley mixing with a child of their type. BUT, what would happen if Lily and Petunia did get along? The two kids, being cousins, would obviously see each other often, play together, etc. Harry would be living in the magical world, exposed to magic all the time, use a different vocabulary, talk about brooms and quidditch, while Dudley wouldn't know anything about it. And it's pretty hard to keep children's mouths closed. It takes a while for a child to understand what a secret is, and longer even to have the strength of character to keep one. So, regardless of the relations between the Dursleys and the Potters... how do families like theirs (one muggle and one magical) get along? How do they comply with the Statute of Secrecy? With the adults is one thing, but how to make a child like Dudley keep quiet at school about his cousin Harry, who makes magic and plays with toy-broomsticks? Are muggle-born witches and wizards doomed to be apart from their muggle families to maintain the secrecy of the wizarding world? I wonder.... Maria From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 16 17:14:35 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:14:35 -0000 Subject: Another look at the Mirror of Erised Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126173 I hope this isn't too OT, but I've been dwelling lately on thoughts of the Mirror of Erised. I hope we get another peek at it in the next two books. I have been musing about what Harry and Ron would see in it were they to look now, and what Hermione might see if she looked in. Originally, when Harry looked into the Mirror, he saw his parents and progenitors, because he longed to have his family. Is that still what he would see? If so, I'm sure Sirius would be prominent in the line-up. I think this is still plausible, but I also have other ideas. Maybe he would see himself as just an average, ordinary WW kid, with nothing more on his mind than his homework and sneaking a bottle of firewhisky. Or maybe he would see himself post-Voldemort, somehow triumphant but not a murderer, living free after being in instrument in the hands of fate. Perhaps a look into the Mirror could help Harry discover a way to defeat LV? I know it shows neither knowledge or truth, but it might be a good catalyst for some ideas. What about Ron? In his first year, Ron saw himself standing proud as Head Boy and Quidditch Captain. Is that what he still wants? (OK, maybe he'd see himself kissing Hermione, wouldn't that give everyone a laugh!) He's had the opportunity to be a prefect, and he's on the quidditch team, but would he really want to be the leader? He didn't seem very comfortable with being a prefect, although that had quite a bit to do with his bros. teasing him, and he seemed to gain confidence (in both prefect duties and quidditch) after Fred and George made their spectacular exit. So, is this still what he wants? And on the side, is he being slowly more prepared for it to actually happen? If these honors come to Harry instead, would we see Ron feel any more jealousy, or would he defer to Harry's leadership? And what about Hermione: she wasn't there when the boys got a peek in first year. But what would she want most now? Theories, away! imamommy From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 16 17:21:09 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:21:09 -0000 Subject: Watching tasks 2 and 3 (wasRe: Dumbledore the teacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126174 Eggplant wrote: > If I were JKR's editor for GoF I would suggest Voldemort say something > like this to his death eaters in the graveyard: > > "There is a powerful spell preventing port keys from working at > Hogwarts but during the Tri Wizard Tournament people would be > arriving from all over the world so I knew the spell would have to be > temporarily removed, if not in the castle itself at least on the > grounds. It also amused me to have Harry Potter whisked away to his > doom at the very instant he thinks he's going to attain his greatest > triumph. And I did it right under Dumbledore's nose with the entire > world watching, people can now see with their own eyes which one of > us is more powerful." > > Now I just need to just figure out why anybody would want to watch > the second and third tasks. Staring at a hedge and the unruffled > surface of a lake lacks a certain visual appeal. Hannah: Good explanation for the portkey business, Eggplant! Now for why anyone wanted to watch the second and third tasks... Maybe they could see parts of what was going on, through the magical equivalent of television - some kind of projection of under the lake/ the maze. That would make sense. But then how come no one seemed to know anything that had happened during either task? Perhaps the magical equivalent of the camera only focuses on one place at a time. With four champions all off in different places, it can't show everything. So it moves around. So when Harry was trying to save all the other captives, the camera was busy showing Fleur's desperate battle with the Grindylows, etc. In the maze, maybe they *did* see Cedric and Harry take the cup together - I don't think there's any canon evidence to say that the audience hadn't seen that moment. If the cup was intended to be a portkey out of the maze, then no one would have thought anything odd when Harry and Cedric disappeared, until they didn't reappear in the appointed place. Or maybe Crouch!Moody had hoodwinked the system just as he did the goblet, either not to be able to focus on the cup, or to show a false image. That's the best that I can come up with. Hannah From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Wed Mar 16 17:39:27 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:39:27 -0000 Subject: Ron and Quidditch/ Head Boys (was Re: Umbridge, detention, scars etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126175 My own take on the Head Boy is that it will be a Slytherin to be named later. The "good" one we've been expecting. I think Hermione will be Head Girl and DD will not want to have both heads from the same house. He will also want to reward the GS, which will make the Slytherins feel less like outsiders in the school. He will also feel that Harry will be too busy with the DA and preparing for Voldemort. I do believe that Harry will be Quiddich Captain, but by then Ron will have found something that he excells in and won't much care about being Capt. He'll still be on the team, still love the sport, but not want to be in charge. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Mar 16 20:07:39 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:07:39 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robe Malfunction Message-ID: <9a.2277f12a.2f69ec0b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126176 In a message dated 3/16/2005 5:26:30 AM Central Standard Time, juanitatighan at frontiernet.net writes: Angie: > OK, the subject is a little tongue-in-cheek but this really bugs me -- > don't wizards/witches wear clothes under their robes? I don't know about those scenes, but I remember that Ron and Harry would usually put their robes on over their muggle garb. Jane I don't know about all of them but I would presume at least a few don't. Remember the scene in GOF at the Quidditch World Cup and ol' Archie "I like a healthy breeze round my privates" when refusing to wear pants instead of an overdress. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 16 20:27:10 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:27:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The theory of Harry Potter symbolising the Path of Liberation Message-ID: <20050316202711.78734.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126177 Hans originally: > Yes it would make it much simpler if I compared Harry Potter only > to, say "The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross". catkind: Personally, I'd find this much more interesting. Sorry if I sound a bit confrontational here, Hans. I'm genuinely interested in your posts because I think there's things about the HP characters in there that would make for interesting discussion if only I could figure out what you're actually saying. I wouldn't be replying otherwise. We don't know what you believe unless you tell us, Hans. You may believe it's the fundamental underlying truth of all things, but you still need to tell us what exactly you think this truth is before you can usefully compare it to Harry Potter. Hans: Thank you for your encouragement. Once youve started something like this its only fair to finish it, I believe. OK I shall do my best to explain it to you in absolute terms with only the essential references to Christianity, but using the Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross as the main comparison. Just to be totally honest: I am a candidate to become a Rosicrucian one day and so obviously I see things from that point of view. As a candidate for membership my understanding is partial and flawed though. This will take quite a lot of time and Ill have to ask for your patience. It might take several weeks. Its going to be extremely difficult not to bring (esoteric) Christianity into it because the Rosicrucian manifestos of 1614-16 were explicitly Christian. The Fama Fraternitatis of 1614 states categorically: JESU MIHI OMNIA. This is Latin for: Jesus means everything to me. It also says: Ex Deo Nascimur In Jesu morimur Per Spiritum Sanctum reviviscimus (From God we are born, in Jesus we die through the Holy Spirit we are reborn). This incidentally is the message of Harry Potter, as youll see in book 7. The Confessio Fraternitatis of 1615 says (ch 10): >From the beginning of the world there has not been given unto men a more worthy, a more excellent, and more admirable and wholesome book than the Holy Bible. And please note that the First name of the hero in The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross of 1616 is CHRISTIAN. So much for Geoffs and Tonks claims that the Rosicrucians are heretics. Meanwhile Ill continue my current series of characters as they are finished. Otherwise Ill see you in a few weeks. Thanks for your interest. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 16 20:48:45 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:48:45 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126178 Lisa [jltraveling] wrote: > I'm new here, hope you don't mind if I jump into the conversation. SSSusan: Welcome, Lisa! Please do jump into the conversation -- that's what makes it fun around here. Lisa: > From the Puppetmaster!Dumbledore perspective, it seems that each of > the teachers has something important to teach Harry and the rest. > Not necessarily in the classroom, but the all-important real-life > lessons that the omniscient Dumbledore knows will become crucial in > the very near future. > > ...Moody was to have him available at the school when things went > bad ...Snape, for example, may be a miserable jerk, but from all > indications he is an admirable potion-maker as well as a member of > the Order of the Phoenix. And he has saved Harry's life. > ...Perhaps Dumbledore feels that allowing Trewlaney to > continue teaching Divination is a justifiable means to the end of > having her well-placed within the castle for the times that she > does make a real prophecy. SSSusan: These seem pretty reasonable to me in terms of your suggestion that there is something *besides* just their subject matter that they have to teach or to offer. Snape & Moody (and even Crouch!Moody) do seem to know their stuff, and so the subject matter isn't being short shrifted. Binns & Trelawney seem to be less well argued away with this explanation, at least in terms of keeping them on as *teachers* as opposed to keeping them in some other capacity at Hogwarts. Since Hogwarts has many ghosts, if Binns is less than a dynamic & fairly ineffective history teacher, couldn't he just be a "regular" Hogwarts ghost and somebody more skilled could teach History? Couldn't Trelawney be kept in a post such as Hogwarts Resident Seer and either dispense with Divination altogether or hire someone different? (I get the sense that Trelawney might have been content all along with just room & board and the chance to interact with a few interested students.) I'm also wondering where *Lockhart* would fall in this category of "These Teachers Have Something Else to Teach." Into the "Harry Must Learn That You Can't Always Trust a Pretty Face (or a Conceited Blowhard)" category? Or perhaps it falls more into your next point: Lisa: > ... the actual number of adult wizards in the Potterverse is > relatively low. Of those, how many are genuinely interested in > teaching? SSSusan: I admit that I've never quite understood the "Nobody's willing" explanation for filling the DADA post, especially before, say, Harry's third year. If, as it seems, Quirrell had been there for a few years, then took sabbatical before returning Harry's 2nd year [see http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-quirrells-leave.html ], then surely news of a possible DADA jinx wouldn't have started 'til at least after Lockhart's year? But if, as you suggest, there just *aren't* many adult witches or wizards capable of AND interested in teaching DADA, because of an overall small wizarding population, I guess I could understand it. But wouldn't teaching DADA be one of the coolest jobs? :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 21:07:28 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:07:28 -0000 Subject: "Little Miss Perfect" (Was Re: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" > wrote: > > > > > Richard Jones: > > > (3) Umbridge getting the D.A. list. Hermione apparently "left > > > [the list] behind" "pinned" to the wall of the Room of > > > Requirement, ... > > > > Hannah: > > > I don't know if this counts as Hermione messing things up, > > though it's a good reminder that she isn't omniscient. The > > consequences of the list being there were not, IMO, forseeable for > > Hermione, so I don't think she can be blamed for it. > Hickengruendler: > > I will go further and say that she didn't leave the list in the > room, or at least there isn't any evidence for it. Umbridge said, > that the room delivered the evidence. It's the Room of Requirement. > The list probably appeared in the room, because it was what Umbridge > needed. It is nowhere said that the list was left behind. > > ...edited... > > Hickengruendler bboyminn: Hickengruendler has a point. We only /know/ that Hermione pinned the List on the wall at the first meeting, from there on, we can only assume. That said, I think the book is intended to /imply/ that it was left up on the wall. That's just the way I read it. But Hickengruendler has made another important point, one I have also made in the past. The Room of Requirements gives you what you need in that moment, Umbridge needed evidence, the room provided. What gets me, independant of whether Hermione actually left the List pinned to the wall, is why didn't Harry and/or Dumbledore use 'the Room of Requirements provides what you want' as an excuse to explain the List. Either of them could have explained to Umbridge, with a sarcastic air of explaining to a child, that that's how the Room works. She wanted some evidence and the Room gave her some evidents, but that the Room most likely manufactured what she wanted. Noting that the List said 'Dumbledore's Army' which is exactly what the Ministry believed and in a sense, desired; so her own internal beliefs and desires cause the list to be titles that way. In addition, Umbridge already knew everyone who was at the Hog's Head meeting, and so she expected those people to be involved, consequently, the Room gave her a List titled the way she wanted it to be titled with a list of students she expected to be there. All clear evidence that the Room gave her exactly that which met with her expectation. In addition, they could have pointed out to Umbridge, that it is far more likely that she would name them 'Dumbledore's Army' than that they would name themselves with such an unlikely and incriminating title. Certianly, something like the 'Defensive Arts Study Group' would have been much more likely if the students had named themselves, or so Dumbledore and Harry would explain. Of course, it's a load of crap, but Umbridge might have bought it, and it would have been very difficult to dispute even in a court of law. The simple fact is, the Room gives the seeker the things that they need; that pretty much explains everything. Also, when Harry was asked by Fudge if he knew why he had been brought to Dumbledore's office, I was just aching for Harry to reply in his snarkiest attitude, 'Yeh, apparently the latest Educational Decree has made it against the law to use the boy's bathroom'. (Remember, Harry was on his way to the boy's bathroom when Draco hit him with a Trip Jinx.) Ultimately though, that's not how the story needed to go, and so JKR took it in a different direction. I think we also need to temper our criticism with the knowledge that /real life/ never quite follows the most logical path; things go wrong, people make the wrong choices, people are misguided, emotions cloud our judgement, etc.... I will close by saying that IF Hermione left the List pinned to the wall the whole time, that doesn't seem that illogical. The Room was a secret place that was difficult to find, so to them, the DA Club, it probably seemed like a vault, very secure. Given that, I think I can forgive Hermione this mistake. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 21:41:22 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:41:22 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126180 > GEO: But one can't simply create a portkey on Hogwarts grounds > considering the various safe guards placed on the school by its many > former headmasters. a_svirn: Obviously one can, since the maze was also situated on Hogwarts grounds. On the Quidditch Pitch to be precise. GEO: > As for the situation in the Tri-Wizard tournament, the consensus > seems to be that the trophy was already a portkey approved by > Hogwarts to teleport the champion out of the maze, but was modified > by Crouch to teleport Harry into the hands of Voldemort, which would > also explain why Harry was able to teleport back to Hogwarts and out > of the maze when he touched it a second time. a_svirn: I don't know about the consensus, but JKR tells a different story: "I offered to carry the Triwizard Cup into the maze before dinner," whispered Barty Crouch. "Turned it into a Portkey. My master's plan worked." And even if you were right, I don't see why Crouch couldn't send Harry a letter, turned to a portkey, or turn his broomstick into a portkey, or come up with something that didn't present the same kind of logistical problems as the TW cup did. a_svirn From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 16 21:57:22 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:57:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Neville Longbottom Message-ID: <20050316215722.38100.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126181 Neville Longbottom Medulla Oblongata The human body is a temple in which God should dwell. That's the theory. Before He can do so a few things have to happen, like a complete rebuilding. Harry Potter is the manual for rebuilding the Temple. The body with all its organs is a kind of three dimensional blueprint for a four dimensional Temple, just as a two dimensional blueprint on paper contains all the plans for a three dimensional building. Hence all the major organs, especially those in the head, have a function in building up the new temple in three days (stages). The physical body is essential for liberation, otherwise we wouldn't have one! We know now that the spinal cord with its fiery serpent-force is symbolised by Draco, and the two strings of the sympathetic nervous system by Crabbe and Goyle. I suspect Lucius is the physical brain and Narcissa the physical body as a whole. The pineal gland is obviously Dumbledore's office. The heart is symbolised by Godric's Hollow. Another organ vital in the process of liberation is the medulla oblongata, also known as Neville Longbottom, with his toad Trevor. I have previously mentioned that we live in a fallen universe. By that I mean it is a part of the original divine universe which has been struck by discord. Jacob Boehme says that God closed off part of the universe and it became the world of wrath. However God never forsakes the works of His hands and three streams flow from the River of God into our universe to enable us to sail back on its waters. These three streams differ in levels of vibration and potency. We can think of these streams as rays of power which are radiated into our universe by the Brotherhood of Compassionate Ones. Firstly there is the calling ray. This is the Pistis. Secondly there is the more powerful ray, the Sophia, which enters the heart of the true seeker and causes the new soul (Harry) to be born. Then there is a third ray which brings the Holy Spirit into the temple to celebrate the alchemical wedding. Each time it is the medulla oblongata that is the gate which allows the ray to enter the person. Perhaps it would be better to say gate-keeper, because the medulla controls the heart sanctuary (e.g. the heart-beat & breathing). As Ive said previously, the body-temple contains three sanctuaries: the biological sanctuary situated in abdominal area, the Holy Sanctuary, situated in the chest, and the Holy of Holies situated in the head. When an evil entity wants to possess a person, he enters through the medulla oblongata. Its the same thing with the Lord. He knocks on the door of the medulla and performs his miracles if he is allowed in. The first time he knocks he comes as the Father and he brings the calling ray. The medulla opens the door to the heart sanctuary and the seeker is born. The calling ray disconcerts him and drives him to look for the meaning of life. He tries all sorts of religious groups and practices, but nothing satisfied his spiritual hunger. Then one day he realises that nothing on earth can satisfy his deep yearning for spiritual fulfilment and he finds Lily. He knows his fulfilment lies in her. The seeker ceases his frenetic seeking and enters a period of inner quiet. This inner quiet causes the medulla to open for the second ray, symbolically referred to as the Son. I want to translate a few words from Het nieuwe teken (The New Sign) by Jan van Rijckenborgh. This book discusses the alchemical wedding. These changes [becoming quiet] open the medulla like a chalice to the Divine Light. [] The lesser blood circulation changes, a different endocrine secretion influences the blood, and new possibilities enter the consciousness. This is the birth of Harry, the new soul. It is the medulla which has opened the gate for the light and made the birth of the new soul possible. This is obviously the reference to Neville and Harry being born at the same time, as the seventh month dies. There are many people who think Neville will have a great and significant role to play in the final battle in book 7. Well, theyre absolutely right! For it is the medulla which opens the gate for the third time, this time to the Holy Spirit, the Lord of Life and Death. Let us see what will happen. Harry grows in grace before God and men. Neville is his friend and staunch supporter. When Harry has reached maturity, i.e. the candidate for the alchemical wedding has surrendered his mortal self totally to the new soul, and the alchemical processes have reached the right stage, God knocks on the door of the medulla for the third time. Van Rijckenborgh: A stream of energy of an unprecedented power and vibration touches the medulla anew and enters the serpent-fire channel [the spinal cord], to shoot downwards into the sacral plexus [the Chamber of Secrets]. As a result of this violent contact there comes a raising of the consciousness. Van Rijckenborgh explains that the candidate enters a new consciousness which is symbolised by the vision of John on Patmos (See Revelation chapter 1). This is the rebirth of the heavenly, immortal human being, the Original Son of God. This is what is described in the Alchemical Wedding as the rebirth of the King and the Queen, and is called passing through the Gate of Saturn. So you see, dear friends, Neville will play an essential role in Harrys final triumph. He will open the gate to the Holy Spirit. There are some questions left about Neville which I cant answer. For instance why he has a toad. Nor do I know why Neville is so forgetful. On the other hand if it hadnt been his forgetfulness which drew my attention to the head I would have never thought of the medulla. Jo definitely leaves clues! She could have called him Marcel Lubbermans, as he is called in the Dutch translation, and I would never have found out his secret. PS After I sent this post to HPfS Valky wrote in and pointed out that it is literally Neville that causes Harry to become a seeker! Remember the first flying lesson when Neville drops his remembrall and Draco grabs it? It is Neville's remembrall that Harry catches when Minerva looks out of the window and realises Harry is the seeker Oliver Plank has been looking so desperately for. This is incontrovertible proof that Jo is symbolising the medulla oblongata opening the gate to the first radiation, causing a person to become a seeker. Thanks, Valky! "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 21:58:00 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:58:00 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > A-svirn:: > > > > > And finally why did LV bother with this tournament at all? If all > he > > needed was to arrange a port-key, surely Crouch jr. could arrange > it > > any time he wanted without going to such lengths in order to ensure > > Harry's victory? One can turn ANYTHING into a portkey, can't one? > > And Crouch-Moody had the whole year at his disposal. > > Finwitch: > > Well, I'd just say that one important thing is TIMING. They had to > make *Harry*, ONLY and CERTAINLY Harry, grasp the portkey at a > predictable time without letting anyone notice... preferably alone. > > Sure, if it could be anyone, why not change some other object - like > the Sorting Hat - into a portkey... > > And of course, the third task weakened Harry, because he had been > bitten by that Acromantula... > > And give Dumbledore a bit of slap: LOOK, old man, I got Harry from > under your nose... > > Finwitch a_svirn: What if Harry got, say, a Christmas present turned into a Portkey? This way one could ensure that it would be definitely Harry who'd touch it, be sure of timing, and could gloat to one's heart's content. And no need to go out of one's way to ensure Harry's victory at the tournament. a_svirn From collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 13:37:14 2005 From: collegegirl200521 at yahoo.com (jina haymaker) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:37:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050316133714.96865.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126183 Tammy: > If Snape gets the DADA job, he can put Harry into danger > by compromising him to Voldemort somehow. It sets up a wonderful > plot where Snape either is evil or appears to be evil and is > really just spying. Snape gets fired (obviously) and goes off to > Voldemort for either more spying or more real evil stuff in Book 7. Tammy, I'm not 100% sure but I think Snape is one of the good guys. Also, I don't think that DD would want Snape to become DADA teacher for 2 important reasons: 1- It might bring back his DE ways (which wouldn't be good) and 2- Snape's potion classes are getting the most OWLs and NEWTs than any other wizarding school. Jina From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 22:04:47 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:04:47 -0000 Subject: "Little Miss Perfect" (Was Re: The OOTP Gripe List, v. 5,432) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > > Richard Jones wrote: > > I think the posters are incorrect about Hermione always being > right > > in OOTP. > > > Hannah: I agree, Richard, and I wanted to respond to some of the > evidence you give. > > Richard Jones wrote: > > (1) Hermione's Guerrilla Hat Campaign. > > > Hannah: Yes, Hermione hasn't really thought it through at all. > She's so carried away by her sense of righteous indignation that she > refuses to use her customary logic. I think here Hermione is > showing why she's a Gryffindor and not a Ravenclaw - rushing into > things without thinking them through, showing a 'saving elves' > complex... > a_svirn: I think this episode as well as ones with centaurs and sneak-jinx shows that she should have been in Slytherin if it wasn't for her muggle provenance. Any means to achieve the end an all that. a_svirn From ihearthermione at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 18:18:30 2005 From: ihearthermione at gmail.com (Ziggie Valencourt) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:18:30 -0500 Subject: Watching tasks 2 and 3 (wasRe: Dumbledore the teacher) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126185 > Eggplant wrote: > > Now I just need to just figure out why anybody would want to watch > > the second and third tasks. Staring at a hedge and the unruffled > > surface of a lake lacks a certain visual appeal. > > Hannah: > Maybe they could see parts of what was going on, through the magical > equivalent of television - some kind of projection of under the > lake/ the maze. Well...I've never posted, but I couldn't resist this one. The maze was set up in the Quidditch pitch...which is designed for Quidditch (duh) and the stands are elevated so as to be even with the action during Quidditch. The walls of the maze were tall (10-20 feet if memory serves) but they were open topped. Wouldn't people have been able to see in, over the top of the maze? Just my thoughts.... Ziggs From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 22:16:01 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:16:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh m In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant9998" wrote: > > A-svirn: > > >why did LV bother with this tournament > > at all? If all he needed was to arrange > > a port-key, surely Crouch jr. could > > arrange it any time he wanted without > > going to such lengths in order to ensure > > Harry's victory? One can turn ANYTHING > > into a portkey, can't one? And > > Crouch-Moody had the whole year > > at his disposal. > > If I were JKR's editor for GoF I would suggest Voldemort say something > like this to his death eaters in the graveyard: > > "There is a powerful spell preventing port keys from working at > Hogwarts but during the Tri Wizard Tournament people would be > arriving from all over the world so I knew the spell would have to be > temporarily removed, if not in the castle itself at least on the > grounds. It also amused me to have Harry Potter whisked away to his > doom at the very instant he thinks he's going to attain his greatest > triumph. And I did it right under Dumbledore's nose with the entire > world watching, people can now see with their own eyes which one of > us is more powerful." > > Now I just need to just figure out why anybody would want to watch > the second and third tasks. Staring at a hedge and the unruffled > surface of a lake lacks a certain visual appeal. > > Eggplant a_svirn: There is a bit of his speech you forget to mention: "I also think it's a good policy to keep my faithful followers busy, so that they won't have enough leisure time to entertain daydreams about the world dominance and immortality". a_svirn From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 22:15:59 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:15:59 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > a_svirn: > Obviously one can, since the maze was also situated on Hogwarts > grounds. On the Quidditch Pitch to be precise. GEO: No doubt that was created with the assistance of the current Headmaster of the School who would then know all the secret and ways to bypass the school's various security measures and considering we also see him making several portkeys in OOTP, I am willing to believe that he is the way that controls the magical ways of access in and out of the school. > And even if you were right, I don't see why Crouch couldn't send > Harry a letter, turned to a portkey, or turn his broomstick into a > portkey, or come up with something that didn't present the same kind > of logistical problems as the TW cup did. GEO: Because he couldn't make a workable portkey without the Headmaster's approval. The trophy was approved since it was a method of retrieving the champion out of the maze with style and without having him fight his way out of the maze with the monsters, the various traps and possibly even his fellow champions arrayed against him and with the extra burden of the trophy. Besides how else do you explain Harry teleporting outside the quidditch pitch from the graveyard when he touched the portkey trophy the second time? From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 22:17:38 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:17:38 -0000 Subject: Ron and Quidditch & Head Boy/Girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126188 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" > wrote: > > > Hannah now: > > > > Katie Bell is one year older than Harry, so will still be at > > Hogwarts - and presumably on the team - in HBP. But I would say > > that Harry, not Ron, is the obvious choice for captain,... > > > Lupinlore: > > I agree that seems the most logical progression. JKR has sent us > some curve balls, however. ... > > However, if I had to bet I would tend to agree with you. I think it > more likely that Harry will become Captain than that Ron will. The > main arguments against him being Captain are > > A) that DD might feel it would be too stressful and; > B) some feel that Seeker is not a good position for a Captain. > > > Hannah(?): > > > > ...edited... > > > > Although he's supported Quidditch for longer than Harry, he has > > four years less playing experience on the team. Harry has also > > already shown leadership skills, and many of those on the team are > > DA members,... Even if Ron was captain, I think the others would > > turn to Harry naturally, creating problems for Ron. > Lupinlore: > > I think this is true. Ron showed a capacity for hard work and > dedication, but he certainly has not demonstrated any great genius > for Quiddicth maneuvers or Quidditch strategy. ...edited... > bboyminn: Way back when I made the original comment about Ron becoming Captain, I qualified it with a very big /eventually/. I think we will start out with Harry as Captian, but I speculate that Harry will find it a very frustrating job. Partly because Harry is used to acting independantly, that's why he makes a good Seeker, but only a so-so 'team player'. Also, I suspect JKR has many non-Quidditch frustrations and distractions lined up for Harry. In an attempt to help out, Ron will jump in in an atttempt to pick up the slack. This will lead to a conflict between Harry and Ron over who is really in charge. Although, unvoiced, Harry will admit that Ron is pretty good at it. Long story short, /eventually/ Harry will turn the Captainship over to Ron who will do very well at it. Remember Ron has a lifetime of following Quidditch, several older brothers with whom he can practice, and discuss strategy and tactics. Ron also has 'off field' experience in many positions. So, without a doubt, Ron is very knowledgable in Quidditch. Harry on the other hand, doesn't really know Quidditch that well. He has only experienced it for a few years and only from his single position as a very independant, not so team oriented, position of Seeker. So, I think, without a doubt given his general popularity, and his unquestionable skill as a Seeker, Harry will start out as Team Captain, but /eventually/ that position will be turned over to Ron. > > Hannah(?): > > > I very much doubt Ron will be captain or Head Boy. But I agree > > with bboymin that he will have a successful school career. ... > > he will discover there are other ways to do that without > > having to be Head Boy, ... > > > Lupinlore: > > At this point I think the whole head boy situation is entirely up in > the air. I see the following candidates: > > 1) Ron. ... > > 2) Harry. ... > > 3) Draco. ... > > 4) Ernie MacMillan. ... > > > Lupinlore bboyminn: Let's look at the circumstances and state of affairs in book 6 and 7, and decide who best fills the requirement, not in general, but of those specific times and circumstance. There is an extremely high likelihood that Hogwarts will be attacked. Even if it is attack in book 6, the creates the strong implication that it /could/ again be attacked in book 7, Harry's Headboy year. They are going to need a Headboy and Headgirl who are able to function under pressure, who are good in a fight, and who are able to take strong and immediate decisive action. It's entirely possible that many student could fit those requirements, but only a very very few students have demonstrated those skills, and of course, that would be Harry, Ron, and Hermione. While Neville has grown much stronger, I really don't see him becoming Headboy, although, it might be a nice twist. These are not going to be normal times, so they are not going to use normal standards in their choice. Because of this I predict Harry will indeed be Head Boy. Also, remember that Head Boy and Head Girl while related to Prefects, are more of an honor than a position. While the job does come with some responsibilities, it seems to be an honor bestowed upon the most oustanding boy and girl. The Junior Prefects get stuck doing most of the work. Also, I don't see being Head Boy as being that much of an burden for Harry. If fact, in my view, the greatest burden is probably just the burden to behave yourself and set a good example. I really don't think Ron needs to be Head Boy, and personally I don't think he should be Head Boy. When the time finally comes, Ron will have discovered that he doesn't need to measure himself against his brothers. He will discover that he is quite outstanding when measure by his own achievements. His becoming Head Boy seems so pointlessly obvious, but his realizing that his own achievement are his greatest measure, does have a very nice point to it. So, /eventually/ Ron will be Captain, and Harry most likely will be Head Boy. Just one man's opinion. Steve/bboyminn From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 22:19:27 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:19:27 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126189 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > What if Harry got, say, a Christmas present turned into a Portkey? > This way one could ensure that it would be definitely Harry who'd > touch it, be sure of timing, and could gloat to one's heart's > content. And no need to go out of one's way to ensure Harry's > victory at the tournament. GEO: Have you seen any portkeys other than the ones approved by Dumbledore including the trophy that Barty Crouch Jr. compromised working on Hogwarts grounds? And considering that you can't apparate in Hogwarts with exception to Dumbledore who used Fawkes it's also quite possible that portkey and possibly floo connections are also strictly regulated and controlled by magic there. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 22:19:32 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:19:32 -0000 Subject: Watching tasks 2 and 3 (wasRe: Dumbledore the teacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126190 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ziggie Valencourt wrote: > > > Eggplant wrote: > > > Now I just need to just figure out why anybody would want to watch > > > the second and third tasks. Staring at a hedge and the unruffled > > > surface of a lake lacks a certain visual appeal. > > > > Hannah: > > Maybe they could see parts of what was going on, through the magical > > equivalent of television - some kind of projection of under the > > lake/ the maze. > > > Well...I've never posted, but I couldn't resist this one. > > The maze was set up in the Quidditch pitch...which is designed for > Quidditch (duh) and the stands are elevated so as to be even with the > action during Quidditch. The walls of the maze were tall (10-20 feet > if memory serves) but they were open topped. Wouldn't people have > been able to see in, over the top of the maze? > > Just my thoughts.... > > Ziggs a_svirn: Then, they would have seen Crouch jr. interfering with champions' progress, wouldn't they? a_svirn From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 22:26:03 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:26:03 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Binns & Trelawney seem to be less well argued away with this > explanation, at least in terms of keeping them on as *teachers* as > opposed to keeping them in some other capacity at Hogwarts. Since > Hogwarts has many ghosts, if Binns is less than a dynamic & fairly > ineffective history teacher, couldn't he just be a "regular" Hogwarts > ghost and somebody more skilled could teach History? GEO: Perhaps Binns knows about secrets to the school and its history that are valuable to the headmasters of the school, which would be why they would keep him on the HoM post. > I'm also wondering where *Lockhart* would fall in this category > of "These Teachers Have Something Else to Teach." Into the "Harry > Must Learn That You Can't Always Trust a Pretty Face (or a Conceited > Blowhard)" category? Or perhaps it falls more into your next point: GEO: Or perhaps Lockhart was forced upon Dumbledore by the Board of Governors under Lucius Malfoy? Afterall what better way to sabotage the school and help Tom Riddle than by appointing an idiot to the post there and no doubt the Governors or a good number of them would have went along with it thanks to Lockhart's undeserved reputation. > SSSusan: > But if, as you suggest, there just *aren't* many adult witches or > wizards capable of AND interested in teaching DADA, because of an > overall small wizarding population, I guess I could understand it. > > But wouldn't teaching DADA be one of the coolest jobs? :-) GEO: This after a major and brutal terrorist war with a Dark Lord whose name people are afraid to speak of even after he was gone for 10 years? Considering the amount of fear there is towards Voldemort and his name, I think the teaching of something like DADA would be shunned by the majority of population just because of its association with Voldemort despite the fact that it would be a necessity against him. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 22:39:38 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:39:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126192 > GEO: No doubt that was created with the assistance of the current > Headmaster of the School who would then know all the secret and ways > to bypass the school's various security measures and considering we > also see him making several portkeys in OOTP, a_svirn: No doubt. >GEO:I am willing to > believe that he is the way that controls the magical ways of access > in and out of the school. a_svirn: So what? We all witnessed how he'd failed the task spectacularly. > > > And even if you were right, I don't see why Crouch couldn't send > > Harry a letter, turned to a portkey, or turn his broomstick into a > > portkey, or come up with something that didn't present the same > kind > > of logistical problems as the TW cup did. > > GEO: Because he couldn't make a workable portkey without the > Headmaster's approval. The trophy was approved since it was a method > of retrieving the champion out of the maze with style and without > having him fight his way out of the maze with the monsters, the > various traps and possibly even his fellow champions arrayed against > him and with the extra burden of the trophy. a_svirn: Suppose you are right concerning the TW cup as means to get back from the maze. It still does not explain why Crouch couldn't set up another potkey. DD didn't give a damn about Fudge's authorization in OotP, so there is no reason to suppose that Crouch jr. would be more considerate. >GEO:Besides how else do you > explain Harry teleporting outside the quidditch pitch from the > graveyard when he touched the portkey trophy the second time? a_svirn: Maybe it's just the way portkeys are made ? as a return ticket, rather then a single one? From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 22:58:49 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:58:49 -0000 Subject: Watching tasks 2 and 3 (wasRe: Dumbledore the teacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126193 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ziggie Valencourt > wrote: > > > > > >Eggplant wrote: > > > > Now I just need to just figure out why anybody would want to > > > > watch the second and third tasks. Staring at a hedge and the > > > > unruffled surface of a lake lacks a certain visual appeal. > > > Hannah: > > > Maybe they could see parts of what was going on, through the > > > magical equivalent of television - some kind of projection of > > > under the lake/ the maze. > > Ziggs: > > > > ... > > > > The maze was set up in the Quidditch pitch...which is designed for > > Quidditch (duh) and the stands are elevated so as to be even with > > the action during Quidditch. The walls of the maze were tall > > (10-20 feetif memory serves) but they were open topped. Wouldn't > > people have been able to see in, over the top of the maze? > > > > Just my thoughts.... > > > > Ziggs > a_svirn: > > Then, they would have seen Crouch jr. interfering with champions' > progress, wouldn't they? > > a_svirn bboyminn: Ziggs is right. The hedges are about 20ft; Harry's estimate, and Quidditch is played at an average height of 50ft; the hooped goal posts are elevated to 50ft. That implies the bulk of the game goes on between 25ft and 100ft in the air. A reasonable estimate of the stadium seating height would be a range of 30ft to 70ft. From a 70 ft elevation, you wouldn't have had any trouble looking down into a 20 foot hedge row. Remember that the hedges are wide enough to accommodate Sphinx, Giant Spiders, and Blast-End Skrewts. So, everybody would have been able to see something. However, not everybody would have been able to see everything. Illustration, those sitting on the ends would have been able to see into the north/south rows of hedges nicely but would have difficulty seeing into the east/west hedge rows. Those on the sides of the stadium could see into the east/west rows, but would have had an obstructed view of the north/south rows. I think Bagman who was commentating, and who was likely in the top box probably had the best view. In addition, the Cup seemed to be in a well lit clearing in the middle of the maze. So it should have been well visible by most people. As to people seeing Crouch!Moody, yes some people would have seen him some of the time, but they would have had no way of knowing what he was doing. In all likelihood those who could see him well, couldn't see the result of his actions, and those who could see the results, couldn't see Moody doing anything. The Lake is another matter. Of course, they only had to wait an hour for some results, and while it may have been boring, an hour really isn't that long. Maybe Bagman regaled them with stories from his Quidditch days to pass the time. Or maybe someone recited short biographies of the contestants and the history of the Tournement to keep the crowd entertained while they waited. I once speculated that a large bubble floated above the surface of the lake showing the location of each contestant, and the location of the objective. But if that were true, then everyone would know that Harry got there first. Anything that gives the spectators insight into what is happening under the lake, makes it difficult to explain why people didn't know what happened, and therefore know that Harry got there first. So, sadly, I think they just sat there bored while Bagman entertained them until it was close to the one hour limit. Although, I won't discount the possibility that Bagman has some type of remote viewing method that allowed him to monitor and comment on what was going on under the lake, but this remote viewing method only allowed viewing one contestant at a time, and therefore, they were distracted elsewhere when Harry was at the hostages. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 23:12:33 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:12:33 -0000 Subject: Watching tasks 2 and 3 (wasRe: Dumbledore the teacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126194 > bboyminn: > > I think Bagman who was commentating, and who was likely in the top box > probably had the best view. a_svirn: Then he would have seen how one champion was busy torturing another champion. Surely, someone would have to step in at this point? a_svirn From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Mar 16 23:20:33 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:20:33 -0000 Subject: The theory of Harry Potter symbolising the Path of Liberation In-Reply-To: <20050316202711.78734.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126195 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: > And please note that the First name of the hero in "The Alchemical Wedding > of Christian Rosycross" of 1616 is CHRISTIAN. > > So much for Geoff's and Tonks' claims that the Rosicrucians are heretics. > Hans Andr?a Geoff: I had noticed. Bear in mind that a person's Christian name (or given name if you prefer) does not necessarily indicate what their personality or world view will be. In my own case, Geoffrey is a variant of "Godfrey" and comes from the German "Gottfried" which means "God's peace". Many of my friends over the years have observed that I was not well-named. :-) I don't think I have ever publicly applied the word heretic directly to the Rosicrucians. What I have objected to is the fact that the observations you have made in regard to the Path of Liberation have taken Biblical passages and teaching completely out of their original context and that you have implied that Jesus never existed as a person. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Mar 16 23:38:51 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:38:51 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126196 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > a_svirn: > Suppose you are right concerning the TW cup as means to get back > from the maze. It still does not explain why Crouch couldn't set up > another potkey. DD didn't give a damn about Fudge's authorization > in OotP, so there is no reason to suppose that Crouch jr. would be > more considerate. GEO: Dumbledore controlled access of magical transportation such as apparition, portkeys and possibly even floo channels because of his position as headmaster. Any portkey that didn't have his blessing would simply not work and that would include any unauthorized portkey that Barty Crouch Jr would have tried to make to kidnapp Harry. > a_svirn: > Maybe it's just the way portkeys are made ? as a return ticket, > rather then a single one? GEO: Then why outside the maze? He and Cedric were taken to the graveyard at the maze's center so shouldn't he have been spit back out at the center instead of outside the maze according to your theory? From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 00:11:38 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:11:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron and Quidditch (was Re: Umbridge, detention, scars etc) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050317001138.81694.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126197 --- lupinlore wrote: > 4) Ernie MacMillan. This name comes up a lot in the fandom. Once > again I can't really think of any good arguments for him other than > that he seems vaguely Percy-ish. Hey! Ernie's the MAN! If he's not Head Boy in Book 7, the fix is decidedly in. He's honest, forthright, doesn't hesitate to argue with Malfoy when something isn't right, had the courage and the decency to apologize publicly to Harry in COS when he admitted that he had been wrong to accuse him of being the Heir of Slytherin and he's prefect for Hufflepuff, which indicates that he's one of their top members. I quite like Ernie and think he'd be a fine Head Boy. Percy-ish indeed! Magda (snorting loudly) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From dontask2much at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 02:01:49 2005 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (Charme) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:01:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Watching tasks 2 and 3 (wasRe: Dumbledore the teacher) References: Message-ID: <003901c52a95$4856d0f0$6501a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 126198 > Well...I've never posted, but I couldn't resist this one. >> >> The maze was set up in the Quidditch pitch...which is designed for >> Quidditch (duh) and the stands are elevated so as to be even with > the >> action during Quidditch. The walls of the maze were tall (10-20 > feet >> if memory serves) but they were open topped. Wouldn't people have >> been able to see in, over the top of the maze? >> >> Just my thoughts.... >> >> Ziggs > > a_svirn: > > Then, they would have seen Crouch jr. interfering with champions' > progress, wouldn't they? > a_svirn > Charme: Disillusionment Charm might have prevented anyone from seeing Junior, perhaps. A reach, but give me credit for offering a possible solution :) Charme From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 17 02:44:08 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:44:08 -0000 Subject: Watching tasks 2 and 3 (wasRe: Dumbledore the teacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126199 Steve: > I think Bagman who was commentating, and who was likely in the top > box probably had the best view. In addition, the Cup seemed to be > in a well lit clearing in the middle of the maze. So it should > have been well visible by most people. SSSusan: Oooooh! Does this possibility provide additional fodder for those who think Bagman is really one of the baddies? Could he have been in on Crouch!Moody's plot? IIRC, after Bagman blows his whistle for the third time, signalling Fleur's entry into the maze, we don't get any further info on where Bagman is sitting or what he is saying. Leaves a lot of this open to speculation. So from a vantage point such as Steve suggests -- esp. if he was the only one up there -- Bagman could report some of the action, elect to not report other aspects of it, basically cover for C!M, couldn't he? Or am I just tired & not thinking properly? Siriusly Snapey Susan From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Mar 17 03:52:48 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:52:48 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron and Quidditch (was Re: Umbridge, detention, scars etc) Message-ID: <42.65265978.2f6a5910@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126200 In a message dated 3/16/2005 7:49:20 AM Central Standard Time, hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk writes: Amible Dorsai wrote: > Assuming Katie Bell is either gone at the beginning of the next > school year, or that she doesn't want the job, Ron is a pretty > good candidate for the job of Captain. In an interview at the World Book Chat (March 4, 2004), J K Rowling was asked whether or not Ron would make the Quidditch team in book 6. Rowling replied, ? Well, he's already there! The question is, whether the new Quidditch Captain will allow him to stay!? Based on this I'd guess that Ron is not the Quidditch Captain in HBP. In fact it even sounds as if his position as Keeper is in jeopardy. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 03:56:16 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:56:16 -0000 Subject: Robe Malfunction In-Reply-To: <9a.2277f12a.2f69ec0b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126201 --- Angie Wrote: > > OK, the subject is a little tongue-in-cheek but this really bugs me -- > > don't wizards/witches wear clothes under their robes? > > > > Melissa wrote: > I don't know about all of them but I would presume at least a few don't. > Remember the scene in GOF at the Quidditch World Cup and ol' Archie "I like a > healthy breeze round my privates" when refusing to wear pants instead of an > overdress. Angie again: Yes, someone else mentioned that and may I just say, "EWWW!" It seems a bit odd to me that they wouldn't wear clothes under their robes, especially since it gets so frickin' cold at Hogwarts! > > ] From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 04:01:22 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:01:22 -0000 Subject: Does Trewlawney Know About the Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126202 ---> Angie wrote: > > I find it interesting that the only two people who have witnessed > > her predictions are Harry and DD. What is the mysterious > > connection b/w her and them that "triggered" the prophecies? > > > > > > Valky replied: > > > > Maybe this is also an explanation for the mystery of why Harry and DD > heard Trelawneys Prophecies. The connection is between the witness and > their own future life - inner being to the Prophecy . It also begs the > question of wether the spy is a Prophecy instrument too. > > > Aside: If the spy is a PI then that really leans the bar heavily > towards Severus Snape being the Spy. > > Angie again: Can you further explain what you mean about Snape? I assume you are referring to him being the person who overheard the first prophecy, by why does it lean the bar heavily toward him being a spy if the spy is a PI? From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 04:07:22 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:07:22 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126203 DD said that few people would recognize Voldemort as the young man who was Tom Riddle, which leads me to wonder: Who else besides DD and Harry do we know for certain knows that Voldemort is Tom Riddle? Should we assume that Harry told Ron and Hermione? I know that Ginny, Arthur, and Molly know that Voldemort enchanted Ginny via the diary, but do they know the diary was Riddles' diary? Does Hagrid know that Voldemort is Tom Riddle? (I'm kinda surprised Harry hasn't asked Hagrid questions about Riddle, since Harry knows that Hagrid went to school with him.) What about Snape and the other members of the order? Do they know? Angie From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 04:19:35 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:19:35 -0000 Subject: Another look at the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126204 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > > I hope this isn't too OT, but I've been dwelling lately on thoughts > of the Mirror of Erised. I hope we get another peek at it in the > next two books. I have been musing about what Harry and Ron would > see in it were they to look now, and what Hermione might see if she > looked in. > > Angie replies: Great topic! What is the deepest and most desperate desires of their hearts at this point (because, as you imply, that does change)? I think what Harry wants most and thus, would see, is a defeated Voldemort and a very alive Sirius. But I think he's long accepted he's never going to see his parents again, at least not on this side. As for Ron, I hope he sees something different. I think the reason he saw himself as Head Boy and Quidditch Captain was because, in his 11-year old mind, those were the ultimate symbols of success -- if he could be those things, then he could be "somebody", like his older brothers. I'd like for him to see that he doesn't have to mimic his brothers in order to be "somebody." I'd like to see him seeing himself doing something no one expects him to do, like getting a bunch of N.E.W.Ts or becoming a teacher. Or at least walking to Hogsmeade with Hermione (yes,in that way!). :) Hermione is easy: She'd see all houseelves freed and being treated as equal to wizards (and herself getting 12 N.E.W.T.s!) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 04:24:56 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:24:56 -0000 Subject: pet rat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126205 a_svirn wrote: > > << What has me in puzzle though is why a rat-pet was allowed in > Hogwarts at all. It was clearly said in the letter of admission: "a > cat OR a toad OR an owl". Why there were special allowances made for > Weasleys? >> > Catlady responded: > It seems to me that a rat is the kind of small pet (didn't Ron > sometimes keep Scabbers in his pocket?) that a kid can keep secretly > even in a school that doesn't allow pets at all. In addition, Hogwarts under Dumbledore doesn't seem very picky about rules; a student can probably have any pet (e.g. a hippogriff) if Filch doesn't catch him/her with it and the other students living in the same dorm don't complain. I personally think Lavender is Muggle-born, partly because she looked ignorant when the Grim was mentioned, but partly because she left her bunny at home; if she were from a wizarding family, she would have known that 'a cat OR a toad OR an owl' didn't mean 'no bunnies'. OTOH she has a perfectly wizarding name. Carol notes: I think we *are* told somewhere that Lavender is a Muggleborn, though you're right: Lavender Brown exactly matches the pattern of Narcissa Black. (Hmm! wonder what that might signify. Probably exactly as much as Lily Evans/Mark Evans.) But Lavender might also have been worried that the cats and owls might *eat* her bunny and consequently left it at home. (Ironically, the protective measures didn't save the bunny.) At any rate, I think the operative word in McGonagall's letter is the repeated and capitalized "OR." Students may bring one pet, but not, under any circumstances, more than one. I think McGonagall assumes that the students will have the standard wizarding pets and doesn't bother to list other, remoter possibilities, like Lee Jordan's tarantula (which, as far as we know, he's allowed to keep, just as Ron is allowed to keep his rat). It's possible, of course, that Lee kept the tarantula a secret, but I doubt that it could have escaped the combined notice of McGonagall, Dumbledore, and DD's network of portrait spies. The same applies to Scabbers, who was at Hogwarts with Percy before he was with Ron. I think DD knew about the rat from the first and either tacitly or specifically okayed him because of the Weasley family's (relative) poverty. It would be unfair to send home little Percy's )or little Ron's) pet and ask the family to buy one from the approved list. I do think that the Hogwarts administration (DD and the heads of houses) would have objected if a student brought a dog, which would stir up trouble among the cats (and doesn't fit the WW image, if that matters)--or a wolf or a porcupine or any number of other large or troublesome animals. But a rat? Rats are small, quiet, relatively clean, and intelligent for their size--or at least lab rats are. Maybe DD assumed that Scabbers was a magical rat like the ones in the pet shop in PoA--harmless, amusing, and intelligent. If I were DD or even the usually rule-enforcing McGonagall, I'd have let the matter go. After all, she *gave* first-year Harry a broom, and that was a larger breach of the rules than letting a child from a poor family keep a pet that's not specifically listed in the welcome letter. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 05:04:38 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:04:38 -0000 Subject: All the possible OWLS - Who got what? In-Reply-To: <20050312090212.59731.qmail@web86707.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126206 Fitzov wrote: > Has anyone considered the possibility that Harry fails Defence against the Dark Arts? I have long held the suspicion that the 'nasty smile playing on Umbridge's lips' as Harry leaves the DADA exam, means that she has just intervened to fail him. Possibly she placed the examiner under an Imperious curse? > > If Harry does fail, then I am willing to guess that there is no justice in the Magical World that would enable Harry's mark to be reinstated. This would entirely mess up his future career as an Auror. Carol responds: I've always thought of DADA as a required course for students at all levels regardless of their performance in earlier years. It seems to be essential for survival in the WW, particularly in a time of danger like the pending VW2. But if there is such a course as NEWT DADA for which only the best students qualify, admission would almost certainly be based on OWL scores, not course marks. And if the new DADA teacher tried to block Harry from entering, McGonagall would come to his defense as his Head of House and assistant headmistress, pointing out that he received high marks in all the DADA exams "set by competent instructors" (quoting from memory here). In the unlikely event that any new instructor faced with an angry McGonagall would or could stand his ground against her, she could always get Dumbledore to back her up. If the DADA instructor wants to keep his job, he's not going to take him to court over a single student's eligibity to take his class. I very much doubt that the need for a grade appeal will arise, but if it does, Madam Bones knows that Harry can cast a corporeal patronus, which pretty much seals the argument as to whether he belongs in NEWT DADA (if such a course even exists). Carol, who fully expects to see Harry as an auror in the epilogue to Book 7 From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 05:31:44 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:31:44 -0000 Subject: Robe Malfunction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > > OK, the subject is a little tongue-in-cheek but this really bugs me -- > don't wizards/witches wear clothes under their robes? > Tonks here: Well this subject does seem a bit muddled in the books and then there is the movie contamination. In the U.S. version of the books, which has pictures inside the book, it show in SS/PS the kids wearing what look to me like cassocks like monks wear. In the other media they wear robes like U.K. kids in boarding schools wear. And Muggle clothing under it. This doesn't seem right. I mean Harry and Hermione are from the Muggle world, but Ron isn't. It has bothered me that he wears Muggle clothes and he doesn't live in the Muggle world. It doesn't make sense. Especially when we see older wizards trying to figure out how to look like Muggles when they go to the Quidditch World Cup. Something just doesn't jive here. I think that older wizard wear what DD wears. DD wears the classic look for wizards. That is a long Alb (the long gown) and an outer robe or cloak. Sometimes in winter they wear an Alb, robe and cloak. (See pictures of Snape at the Quidditch match.) I am sure that there is some sort of underwear, with some male wizards on the eccentric side not wearing any. The kids seem to wear what they wear in boarding schools. That is the open robe over their regular clothing. Tonks_op From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 05:49:24 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:49:24 -0000 Subject: Umbridge, ...etc..., plotlines, oh my!. - Clumsy? Minor Points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126208 > bboyminn : > Further, I doubt that /one/ editor proofreads cover to > cover and makes the corrections. I suspect in a rush to get it out, a team of editors are working on sections of the book, and that makes > things like repetative phrases harder to catch. > Carol responds: Earlier I pointed out the difference between developmental editors and copyeditors. For the record, proofreading is something different altogether. It happens after the copyedited manuscript is set in type. The proofreader corrects any errors made by the typesetter, and in some cases is authorized to catch and correct (or at least query) errors overlooked by the copyeditor. The author and publisher also look at the proofs (the typeset pages) and correct any errors that they spot at that point. The typesetter then incorporates all the corrections, which are checked again and again until everything is (in theory) exactly right. Obviously, though, the more people are involved in the process, the more human errors and inconsistencies are likely to creep in. And, as I indicated previously, there are bound to be discrepancies between the British and American editions. But I doubt that either the American or the British publisher divvies up the copyediting among a team of editors. I, for one, would spot the resulting inconsistencies and be sidetracked and annoyed by them. I think the copyeditors are probably chosen for efficiency rather than perfectionism. In other words, they know how to meet a deadline and when to let a less than perfect sentence go--which is why someone (like me) who values precision and conciseness would never be chosen for the project. And the proofreaders are probably strictly limited in the types of corrections they're allowed to make--all for the sake of efficiency (and not offending a rich and famous author by suggesting corrections that the editors missed). Nevertheless, as I said before, we're *not* seeing the raw, unedited manuscripts or anything like them. Carol, wondering how much red would appear on the pages of HBP if she had the manuscript in her hands right now From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 06:44:56 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:44:56 -0000 Subject: Robe Malfunction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126209 gelite67 wrote: > > OK, the subject is a little tongue-in-cheek but this really bugs > me -- don't wizards/witches wear clothes under their robes? > > Tonks responded: > > Well this subject does seem a bit muddled in the books and then > there is the movie contamination. In the U.S. version of the books, > which has pictures inside the book, it show in SS/PS the kids > wearing what look to me like cassocks like monks wear. In the other > media they wear robes like U.K. kids in boarding schools wear. And > Muggle clothing under it. This doesn't seem right. I mean Harry > and Hermione are from the Muggle world, but Ron isn't. It has > bothered me that he wears Muggle clothes and he doesn't live in the > Muggle world. It doesn't make sense. Especially when we see older > wizards trying to figure out how to look like Muggles when they go > to the Quidditch World Cup. Something just doesn't jive here. > > I think that older wizard wear what DD wears. DD wears the classic > look for wizards. That is a long Alb (the long gown) and an outer > robe or cloak. Sometimes in winter they wear an Alb, robe and > cloak. (See pictures of Snape at the Quidditch match.) I am sure > that there is some sort of underwear, with some male wizards on the > eccentric side not wearing any. > > The kids seem to wear what they wear in boarding schools. That is > the open robe over their regular clothing. Carol responds: In general, I agree with Tonks, except the part about the kids wearing an open robe over their regular clothing. We're never told that the kids' robes are open, or that they differ in any way, except in being black, from the robes that older wizards wear. The only time we know that Harry wears clothes under his robes (always plural, not singular) is in a quidditch match when it's very cold. We have the scene already mentioned, when Ron asks (or orders) Hermione to leave so he and Harry can change to their robes, and we have the scene with young Snape wearing only underpants (and shoes and socks) under his robes. So I'm guessing that at least the purebloods (and halfbloods raised in the WW) *don't* wear clothing (except underwear) under their robes, whether they're students or adults. I think they wear closed robes like those worn by clerics and students in the Middle Ages, and hooded cloaks over the robes in cold weather. IOW, I think the films and Mary Grand Pre have it wrong. The one problem I have is the pureblood parents having no clue what Muggle clothes look like. Surely they had Muggleborn friends when they were in school, and also they and their children have to pass as Muggles when they take the kids to Platform 9 3/4 and pick them up at the end of the year, so they must have *some* idea what those clothes look like. And oddly, even Mr. Black, Sirius Black's late father, owned a pair of trousers that Kreacher was found "snogging." (That's an inconsistency a copyeditor should have queried, bboy and Lupinlore.) But I doubt that they or their children wear Muggle clothes under their robes. So it's underwear or nothing. Or maybe "robes" means there's some sort of "underrobe" like a slip, but we haven't seen any such thing mentioned, and I think Harry and Ron would protest mightily against wearing such a garment if it existed. Some time back we had a thread with a link to medieval academic robes that looked something like the way some of us imagine the Hogwarts robes to look, but I don't have time to search for it now. Think of a priest's black cassock without a white alb or a sleeveless chasuble. I'm pretty sure that the robes and pointed black hats described in the list of requirements for first-year students in SS/PS are based on the traditional clothing associated with Halloween or fairytale witches (just as brooms and cats and cauldrons are associated with those witches). That's almost certainly the image that would come to the mind of the average eleven-year-old encountering SS/PS for the first time (without having seen the movies first). It's what I envision, too, as I read the books, except that I usually forget about the hats until JKR mentions them. I think Snape and McGonagall dress very much like the students most of the time. Dumbledore and Flitwick I imagine as dressing more like a traditional sorceror like Merlin, in bright colors with stars or other decorations on the robes. But either way, the robes are closed, and there are no Muggle clothes underneath. Maybe boxer shorts with stars on them. Or, in Dumbledore's case, socks. (Joking on that last point.) Carol, pointing out that women who wear dresses have nothing but underwear (and pantyhose) beneath them, which makes us not so different from Snape and Dumbledore on those occasions From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 07:28:19 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:28:19 -0000 Subject: Does Trewlawney Know About the Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126210 > ---> Angie wrote: > > > I find it interesting that the only two people who have > > > witnessed her predictions are Harry and DD. What is the > > > mysterious connection b/w her and them that "triggered" the > > > prophecies? > > > > > > > Valky replied: > > > > > > > > Maybe this is also an explanation for the mystery of why Harry and > DD heard Trelawneys Prophecies. The connection is between the > witness and their own future life - inner being to the Prophecy . > > It also begs the question of wether the spy is a Prophecy > > instrument too. > > > > Aside: If the spy is a PI then that really leans the bar heavily > > towards Severus Snape being the Spy. > > > > Angie again: > > Can you further explain what you mean about Snape? I assume you are > referring to him being the person who overheard the first prophecy, > by why does it lean the bar heavily toward him being a spy if the > spy is a PI? Valky: Well first I figure that the eavesdropper was a Prophecy Instrument because Voldemort would not have shown up at GH when he did if the eavesdropper had not *chosen* to tell him. But the choice laid before DD and Harry as prophecy Instruments was not as simple to make as would be the decision for a devoted follower of Voldemort to tell him about a threat to his dominion. What I mean is that, by the reasoning I have used, it follows that the eavesdropper PI *struggled* with the decision to tell Voldemort just as Harry struggled with the decision to spare Pettigrew and DD struggled with his decision to leave Harry at the Dursleys, this all leans it heavy towards Snape because we know that he betrayed Voldemort soon after by joining DD. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Mar 17 07:54:34 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:54:34 -0000 Subject: Watching tasks 2 and 3 (wasRe: Dumbledore the teacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > > bboyminn: > > > > > I think Bagman who was commentating, and who was likely in the top > box > > probably had the best view. > > a_svirn: > > Then he would have seen how one champion was busy torturing another > champion. Surely, someone would have to step in at this point? > > a_svirn Geoff: Don't forget the time of day. It was evening. 'They walked onto the Quidditch pitch, which was now completely unrecognisable. A twenty-foot-high hedge ran all the way around the edge of it. There was a gap right in front of them; the entrance to the vast maze. The passage beyond it looked dark and creepy.' (GOF "The Third Task" p.538 UK edition) 'Thw towering hedges cast black shadows across the path and, whether becasue they were so tall and black or because they had been enchanted, the sound of the surrounding crowd was silenced the moment they entered the maze. Harry felt almost as if he was underwater again. He pulled out wand, muttered "Lumos" and heard Cedric do the same just behind him.' (ibid. pp.539-540) 'The maze was growing darker with every passing minute as the sky overhead deepened to navy.' (ibid. p,540) Apart from the illumination where the Cup was, spectators would have had trouble seeing a lot of the action because it was happening on darkened paths. So a lot of the "fun and games" probably wasn't seen. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Mar 17 08:40:25 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:40:25 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robe Malfunction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4239DD29.7291.1A14CAC@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 126212 On 16 Mar 2005 at 3:41, gelite67 wrote: > > > OK, the subject is a little tongue-in-cheek but this really bugs me -- > don't wizards/witches wear clothes under their robes? > > In COS, Ron and Harry get larger robes and shoes when they take the > Polyjuice Potion to change into Crabbe and Goyle, but nothing else. > What about pants, shirts, and undies? > > In OOP when Harry enters Snapes worst memory, James turns Snape > upside down revealing his underwear. > > In GOF, after the World Quidditch Match, when the Death Eaters are on > the loose, Draco taunts Hermione that she'll be up in the air showing > her knickers. > > I don't get it! By coincidence, during my recent readthrough of the books I gathered all the information I could find on this. There's a rather mixed bag of information there. >From Philosopher's Stone. 1. "Harry woke at five o'clock the next morning and was too excited and nervous to go back to sleep. He got up and pulled on his jeans because he didn't want to walk into the station in his wizard's robes -- he'd change on the train." 2. "'Scabbers has been fighting, not us,' said Ron, scowling at her. 'Would you mind leaving while we change?'... He and Ron took off their jackets and pulled on their long black robes. Ron's were a bit short for him, you could see his sneakers underneath them." 3. "Harry knew, when they wished him good luck outside the locker rooms the next afternoon, that Ron and Hermione were wondering whether they'd ever see him alive again. This wasn't what you'd call comforting. Harry hardly heard a word of Wood's pep talk as he pulled on his Quidditch robes and picked up his Nimbus Two Thousand." 4. "And suddenly, their wardrobes were empty, their trunks were packed, Neville's toad was found lurking in a corner of the toilets; notes were handed out to all students, warning them not to use magic over the holidays ('I always hope they'll forget to give us these,' said Fred Weasley sadly); Hagrid was there to take them down to the fleet of boats that sailed across the lake; they were boarding the Hogwarts Express; talking and laughing as the countryside became greener and tidier; eating Bettie Bott's Every Flavor Beans as they sped past Muggle towns; pulling off their wizard robes and putting on jackets and coats; pulling into platform nine and three-quarters at King's Cross Station." >From Chamber of Secrets: 5. "Immediately, his insides started writhing as though he'd just swallowed live snakes - doubled up, he wondered whether he was going to be sick - then a burning sensation spread rapidly from his stomach to the very ends of his fingers and toes - next, bringing him gasping to all fours, came a horrible melting feeling, as the skin all over his body bubbled like hot wax - and before his eyes, his hands began to grow, the fingers thickened, the nails broadened, the knuckles were bulging like bolts - his shoulders stretched painfully and a prickling on his forehead told him that hair was creeping down toward his eyebrows - his robes ripped as his chest expanded like a barrel bursting its hoops - his feet were agony in shoes four sizes too small." >From Prisoner of Azkaban: 6. "At a quarter to eleven, the Gryffindor team set off for the locker rooms. The weather couldn't have been more different from their match against Hufflepuff. It was a clear, cool day with a very light breeze; there would be no visibility problems this time, and Harry, though nervous, was starting to feel the excitement only a Quidditch match could bring. They could hear the rest of the school moving into the stadium beyond. Harry took off his black school robes, removed his wand from his pocket, and stuck it inside the T- shirt he was going to wear under his Quidditch robes. He only hoped he wouldn't need it. He wondered suddenly whether Professor Lupin was in the crowd, watching." >From Goblet of Fire: 7. "There was a definite end-of-the-holidays gloom in the air when Harry awoke next morning. Heavy rain was still splattering against the window as he got dressed in jeans and a sweatshirt; they would change into their school robes on the Hogwarts Express." 8. "Harry soared higher in a circle; the Horntail was still following his progress; its head revolving on its long neck - if he kept this up, it would be nicely dizzy - but better not push it too long, or it would be breathing fire again - Harry plummeted just as the Horntail opened its mouth, but this time he was less lucky - he missed the flames, but the tail came whipping up to meet him instead, and as he swerved to the left, one of the long spikes grazed his shoulder, ripping his robes -- He could feel it stinging, he could hear screaming and groans from the crowd, but the cut didn't seem to be deep. . . . Now he zoomed around the back of the Horntail, and a possibility occurred to him...." 9. "'He'll be fine,' said Madam Pomfrey, giving Harry some pajamas and pulling screens around him. He took off his robes, pulled on the pyjamas, and got into bed. Ron, Hermione, Bill, Mrs. Weasley, and the black dog came around the screen and settled themselves in chairs on either side of him. Ron and Hermione were looking at him almost cautiously, as though scared of him." >From Order of the Phoenix 10. "'We'd better change,' said Hermione at last, and all of them opened their trunks with difficulty and pulled on their school robes. She and Ron pinned their prefect badges carefully." 11. "Harry said nothing. He threw his wand down on to his bedside table, pulled off his robes, stuffed them angrily into his trunk and pulled on his pyjamas." 12. "All their teammates but Angelina were already in the changing room when they entered. 'All right, Ron?' said George, winking at him. 'Yeah,' said Ron, who had become quieter and quieter all the way down to the pitch. 'Ready to show us all up, Ickle Prefect?' said Fred, emerging tousle-haired from the neck of his Quidditch robes, a slightly malicious grin on his face. 'Shut up,' said Ron, stony-faced, pulling on his own team robes for the first time. They fitted him well considering they had been Oliver Wood's, who was rather broader in the shoulder." 13. "Angelina had changed already and was talking to the rest of the team when they entered. Harry and Ron pulled on their robes (Ron attempted to do his up back-to-front for several minutes before Alicia took pity on him and went to help), then sat down to listen to the pre-match talk while the babble of voices outside grew steadily louder as the crowd came pouring out of the castle towards the pitch." 14. "Snow was filling up the window now. Harry became aware that the knees of his robes were soaked through: Fang was drooling with his head in Harry's lap." 15. "They pulled off their robes and put on pyjamas in silence; Dean, Seamus and Neville were already asleep. Harry put his glasses on his bedside table and got into bed but did not pull the hangings closed around his four-poster; instead, he stared at the patch of starry sky visible through the window next to Neville's bed. If he had known, this time last night, that in twenty-four hours' time he would have kissed Cho Chang..." 16. "When Ron woke up, Harry pretended to have enjoyed a refreshing nap too. Their trunks arrived from Hogwarts while they were eating lunch, so they could dress as Muggles for the trip to St Mungo's. Everybody except Harry was riotously happy and talkative as they changed out of their robes into jeans and sweatshirts." 17. "'What?' said Ron, looking amazed. (Harry wanted to stamp on Ron's foot, but that sort of thing is much harder to bring off unnoticed when you're wearing jeans rather than robes.) 'Is that your dad down the end, Neville?'" (PLEASE NOTE: I do not claim this list is entirely exhaustive - I may have missed some relevant references.) Of the 17 references, 5 (3,4, 10 11,12,13) seem to me to at least imply the wearing of clothes under robes. 10 (1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 14, 15, 16, 17) seem to me to imply the wearing of nothing significant under robes. 1 (2) is mixed. 1 (6) clearly mentions clothing worn under robes, but may imply this is unusual. I'll analyse in detail. 1 (NO CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "He got up and pulled on his jeans because he didn't want to walk into the station in his wizard's robes -- he'd change on the train." implies that Harry would not wear jeans if he was wearing his wizard robes - he puts on jeans *because* he is not going to wear his robes to the station. 2 (MIXED): "'Would you mind leaving while we change?'... He and Ron took off their jackets and pulled on their long black robes." The first part implies that modesty requires Hermione to leave - however all the text says is they remove their jackets - nothing else - suggesting other clothes are left on. 3 (CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "Harry hardly heard a word of Wood's pep talk as he pulled on his Quidditch robes and picked up his Nimbus Two Thousand." There are girls on the team, and presumably Wood only gives his pep talk when all are present - so Harry is probably changing in the presence of girls. 4 (CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "pulling off their wizard robes and putting on jackets and coats" is similar to two - after pulling off the robes, the only clothing mentioned as being put on are jackets or coats - suggesting other clothes are being worn. 5. (NO CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "his robes ripped as his chest expanded like a barrel bursting its hoops" implies that Harry is only wearing his robes - no mention of his other clothes tearing or ripping. 6. (CLOTHES UNDERNEATH BUT...): "Harry took off his black school robes, removed his wand from his pocket, and stuck it inside the T-shirt he was going to wear under his Quidditch robes." clearly indicates that Harry does wear a T-shirt under his robes - but the fact this needs to be pointed out suggests it might be unusual. 7. (NO CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "Heavy rain was still splattering against the window as he got dressed in jeans and a sweatshirt; they would change into their school robes on the Hogwarts Express." Similar to 1 in my view - if they intended to put on their robes over their jeans and sweatshirts, would it say they were going to change? Change to me implies taking off the jeans and sweatshirt and putting on the robes. 8. (NO CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "one of the long spikes grazed his shoulder, ripping his robes -- He could feel it stinging" suggests that after the robes are ripped there is nothing beneath to protect his skin. 9. (NO CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "He took off his robes, pulled on the pyjamas, and got into bed." implies that once he takes off the robes, he pulls on the pyjamas - no other clothes mentioned. 10. (CLOTHES UNDERNEATH) "'We'd better change,' said Hermione at last, and all of them opened their trunks with difficulty and pulled on their school robes" certainly implies that they wear something under their robes. I suppose after 5 years as close friends, they might not care *that* much about modesty - but there's no mention of disrobing at all. 11. (NO CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "He threw his wand down on to his bedside table, pulled off his robes, stuffed them angrily into his trunk and pulled on his pyjamas." - same as 9. 12. (CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "All their teammates but Angelina were already in the changing room when they entered... 'Shut up,' said Ron, stony-faced, pulling on his own team robes for the first time. They fitted him well considering they had been Oliver Wood's, who was rather broader in the shoulder." implies clothing - Ron is changing in a room that has girls in it. 13. (CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "Harry and Ron pulled on their robes (Ron attempted to do his up back-to-front for several minutes before Alicia took pity on him and went to help)" - same as 12 - and would Alicia really be the one to help if he wasn't wearing anything. Even if standards of modesty are different at Hogwarts, surely Harry, or Fred and George would have stepped in in that case (-8 14. (NO CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "Snow was filling up the window now. Harry became aware that the knees of his robes were soaked through: Fang was drooling with his head in Harry's lap." implies nothing is worn under the robes - they are soaked through and Harry can feel it. 15. (NO CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "They pulled off their robes and put on pyjamas in silence" - as 9 and 11. 16. (NO CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "Everybody except Harry was riotously happy and talkative as they changed out of their robes into jeans and sweatshirts." - implies that they were not already wearing the jeans and sweatshirts. 17. (NO CLOTHES UNDERNEATH): "(Harry wanted to stamp on Ron's foot, but that sort of thing is much harder to bring off unnoticed when you're wearing jeans rather than robes.)" - jeans *RATHER THAN* robes - implies that it's one or the other normally. A very mixed bag. My only conclusion is that whether or not they wear anything underneath their robes is a matter of choice. Generally they don't, it would seem to me - but in cases where they know they may wind up changing in the presence of the opposite sex, they generally choose to do so. Of course, it's important to realise that the Wizarding world *is* a somewhat different culture from the Muggle world. There may not be the same concerns about nudity, or changing. Or perhaps, it's more specific. It may matter generally or not among friends. Or it may matter less among Quidditch team mates (or House mates - McGonnagall did say the House is something like a family - plenty of families where it matters less). It may well be that similar ideas do apply - but we do need to at least be aware that the cultural norms in this regard may be different. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 04:46:42 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:46:42 -0000 Subject: History and Myth Behind HP In-Reply-To: <20050313104329.52937.qmail@web86705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126213 Fitzov de Sullens wrote: > The Chapter Title of "Spinner's End" also has me intrigued. It actually sounds more like a house name than a street name to me. I wonder, therefore, if this is the name of Sirius' own house: the one that he bought at the age of 17 with his Uncle Alphard's gold (OOtP, p104 (UK Ed.))? Carol responds: Interesting suggestion. I've always wondered what happened to Sirius's other house--surely the one he intended for Harry to come and live in if he (Sirius) hadn't remained a fugitive and if 12 Grimmauld Place, with all the protections already on it, hadn't been a perfect (if eerie and uncomfortable) choice for Order Headquarters. Regarding the name "Spinner's End": I thought that "End" was a term used in Britain for a cul-de-sac, which literally means "bottom of the bag" (note Tolkien's pun in naming Bilbo's house "Bag End," which IIRC refers to both the house and the cul-de-sac where it's situated. At the end of LOTR, the street replacing Bagshot Row is called New Row but referred to as "Sharky's End" as "a purely Bywater joke." My point is that I can see "Spinner's End" being both the name of a street ending in a cul-de-sac and a house at the end of that street. I won't try to speculate about whose house it is, but I'll bet it's the place Harry goes after "the shortest stay ever" at 4 Privet Drive. Carol, who has never encountered a house with a name outside British literature (and photos of Frank Lloyd Wright creations) From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 05:20:02 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:20:02 -0000 Subject: Ron and Quidditch & Head Boy/Girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126214 bboyminn: Way back when I made the original comment about Ron becoming Captain, I qualified it with a very big /eventually/. I think we will start out with Harry as Captian, but I speculate that Harry will find it a very frustrating job. Partly because Harry is used to acting independantly, that's why he makes a good Seeker, but only a so-so 'team player'. Also, I suspect JKR has many non-Quidditch frustrations and distractions lined up for Harry. In an attempt to help out, Ron will jump in in an atttempt to pick up the slack. This will lead to a conflict between Harry and Ron over who is really in charge. Although, unvoiced, Harry will admit that Ron is pretty good at it. Long story short, /eventually/ Harry will turn the Captainship over to Ron who will do very well at it. Remember Ron has a lifetime of following Quidditch, several older brothers with whom he can practice, and discuss strategy and tactics. Ron also has 'off field' experience in many positions. So, without a doubt, Ron is very knowledgable in Quidditch. Harry on the other hand, doesn't really know Quidditch that well. He has only experienced it for a few years and only from his single position as a very independant, not so team oriented, position of Seeker. So, I think, without a doubt given his general popularity, and his unquestionable skill as a Seeker, Harry will start out as Team Captain, but /eventually/ that position will be turned over to Ron. vmonte responds: I see something like this happening as well. Harry will become the captain, but he will not be good at it--a first for him! (I can actually see Harry missing several opportunities of catching the snitch because he becomes too focused on watching his players.) Ron, on the other hand, will reveal his gift for strategy, and at a critical moment (during a game) will take over and turn around the Gryffindor's losing streak. Ginny will be the person that will tell Harry that he stinks as a strategist and that Ron should be the captain. Harry will have to face the fact that he cannot be good at everything. Vivian From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 07:24:34 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:24:34 -0000 Subject: Watching tasks 2 and 3 - Stepping In In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > > bboyminn: > > > > > I think Bagman who was commentating, and who was likely in the top > > box probably had the best view. > a_svirn: > > Then he would have seen how one champion was busy torturing another > champion. Surely, someone would have to step in at this point? > > a_svirn bboyminn: Small problem here, or at least potential problem, the Maze seems to be covered by a silencing charm. That is, as soon as Harry went into the Maze, all outside sound stops. The Silence Barrier was probably to prevent the contestants for getting clues or warning shouted to them, or to prevent them from getting clues or warning from the crowds reactions. I can't say with any certainty, but it's possible the silence barrier worked both ways; stopped sound from getting in or out. So, it would have been difficult for the observers to figure out what Harry, Victor, and Cedric were doing to each other. Of course, they would have know something strange was going on, especially after Harry stunned Viktor. The Stunning spell casts red light, but I don't recall a colored light associated with the Cruciatus Pain Curse, nor the Imperius Mind Control Curse. So after Harry stunned Viktor, at that point, the event had been resolve, red sparks had been sent up so some one would come to fetch Viktor, and Harry and Cedric were OK, so there was no point in stopping the contest. Also, as I explained in my post, even the very best seat in the stadium would not have been a perfect seat; everybody could see something, but nobody could see everything. Just a guess. Steve/bboyminn From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 10:29:40 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:29:40 -0000 Subject: As the 7th month dies... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126216 I believe that Dumbledore made a mistake interpreting the prophecy. It's not vague or cryptic in meaning, it's more likely very *exact*! What I was thinking of the phrase 'As the 7th month dies' - well... anyone watch TV when the year 1999 died? It WAS pretty big thing then, wasn't it? Particularly with the rumoured Millenium-bug of computers, and the whole 4-digit vs. 2-digit systems... So, thinking globally, 'as the 7th month dies' refers to a 24-hour period, beginning from Midnight at the International Date-line, on GMT+12 - time zone, where the '7th month dies' and becomes 1st August first. (GMT time on that moment, in Britain where the Greenwitch observatory is located, this time happens to be NOON, 31st July...). And, 7th month is completely dead when even at GMT-12 time-zone 31st July turns to 1st August. (At noon GMT, 1st August). And what does this mean? We've heard that Neville was born on 30th July, which makes it too early for him to be 'the one' - unless he was born at Midnight on GMT-12 timezone -- and his parents chose his birthdate to be the 30th July (to hide the possibility of his being the prophecy-boy...). Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 11:04:32 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:04:32 -0000 Subject: Robe Malfunction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126217 > > > Melissa wrote: > > I don't know about all of them but I would presume at least a few > don't. > > Remember the scene in GOF at the Quidditch World Cup and ol' > Archie "I like a > > healthy breeze round my privates" when refusing to wear pants > instead of an > > overdress. > > Angie: > > Yes, someone else mentioned that and may I just say, "EWWW!" > > It seems a bit odd to me that they wouldn't wear clothes under their > robes, especially since it gets so frickin' cold at Hogwarts! Finwitch: We met old Archie during SUMMER. I'd expect that what a wizard or witch has under the robes varies by what temperature/practicality dictates. And about the cold -- well, I saw this man in news during a very cold weather, and all he was wearing were bobbler hat, mittens, shorts, socks and shoes - while pushing snow away from the drive-way... some people just feel comfortable in light clothing no matter how cold it is. (I don't, but...) Who knows, maybe Archie only wears his robes for modesty in public (at his wife's insistence?) and is totally naked otherwise... And anyway... I'd say they *can* pull on the robes first and take their jeans (and whatever) off *then*, beneath their closed robes? I remember changing underwear/swimming suit under a dress several times myself... Mind you, I think that Ron used that 'changing' as an excuse to be politely rid of Hermione for a moment... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 11:36:20 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:36:20 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126218 > Carol: > > Interesting suggestion. I've always wondered what happened to Sirius's > other house--surely the one he intended for Harry to come and live in > if he (Sirius) hadn't remained a fugitive and if 12 Grimmauld Place, > with all the protections already on it, hadn't been a perfect (if > eerie and uncomfortable) choice for Order Headquarters. > > Regarding the name "Spinner's End": I thought that "End" was a term > used in Britain for a cul-de-sac, which literally means "bottom of the > bag" (note Tolkien's pun in naming Bilbo's house "Bag End," which IIRC > refers to both the house and the cul-de-sac where it's situated. At > the end of LOTR, the street replacing Bagshot Row is called New Row > but referred to as "Sharky's End" as "a purely Bywater joke." > > My point is that I can see "Spinner's End" being both the name of a > street ending in a cul-de-sac and a house at the end of that street. I > won't try to speculate about whose house it is, but I'll bet it's the > place Harry goes after "the shortest stay ever" at 4 Privet Drive. > > Carol Finwitch: I myself believe that as well. A street called Spinner's end (two locations have been found on a map), a house located at the end of it - AND possibly a Spinner died there. Famous spinners in literature: Legendary witch who put Sleeping Beauty to her famous sleep... The elf who could spin gold out of straw... -- what was his name? The Fates... Arachne; and the goddess, Athene... --- Oh, and I suppose that it *could* be Sirius' other house. Particularly if Sirius comes back as Stuffy Boardman... But it could belong to Flamels, too. And I'd say that Perenelle DOES know how to spin - what woman didn't 6-7 centuries ago? (and they could be alive. Albus may have erred in thinking that the stone was destroyed - or Nicholas made a new one - and well, it was never suggested that their death at the destruction of the stone would be instant!) Actually I kind of like the idea of Flamels-- who might even be Harry's relatives... ancestors: maybe they had a daughter (- or granddaughter - or-- well, you get it...) - who married a Potter: a wizard who may even have been working with clay those days... or some ancestor to Lily&Petunia Evans... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 12:12:59 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:12:59 -0000 Subject: A thought about wizard-muggle relations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126219 Maria: > So, regardless of the > relations between the Dursleys and the Potters... how do families > like theirs (one muggle > and one magical) get along? How do they comply with the Statute of > Secrecy? With the > adults is one thing, but how to make a child like Dudley keep quiet > at school about his > cousin Harry, who makes magic and plays with toy-broomsticks? Are > muggle-born > witches and wizards doomed to be apart from their muggle families to > maintain the > secrecy of the wizarding world? Finwitch: Oh, well - who would *believe* the child? They'd just think it was child's play - and the 'toy broomstick' was just a version of stick- Horse... Most children DO believe in magic - Christmas Magic, anyway (flying reindeers, elves, ability to visit every house in the World in one night) ... then they go to school and stop believing, because it doesn't fit into physics. Dudley would have stopped talking about magic soon because of auntie Marge saying that anyone 'flying with a broomstick' just didn't have enough to buy a proper stick-horse with contempt or because the other children would laugh at him for believing such tales... Finwitch From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Mar 17 13:04:17 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:04:17 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126220 SSSusan wrote: > Also, the standards Snape holds to in his own classroom just might be higher than the standards to which the examiners hold students, might they not? If that's the case, then achieving the "O" Snape requires might be possible for more students than think they can achieve it. Potioncat: Very nice post, thanks for the long quote from the 5th years' first potions class. Had Lupin been the long standing Potions Master the speech would have sounded more like this, "You have an important test to take at the end of the year. And I'm certain with a little hard work, everyone of you can earn an Acceptable." he smiled at Neville. "This class will continue my high pass rate, I'm sure McGonagall tells Harry he's performing at "Acceptable" in Transfigurations, but says he can work harder and make the "E" she expects. She also says he can make the grade in Potions. By this, I mean, looking at his current marks, she thinks he can perform well enough on the OWLs to earn a spot in the NEWT classes. I wonder in this case, if Snape did give him zeroes, because his other grades would have to be very high to keep his overall potions grade up. Could Snape have had some reason to hide Potter's true ability? So it seems that the marks that these two teachers give are much harder to earn than the marks on the tests. If we could have wandered into the common rooms we might have heard older students telling the 5th years not to worry about potions or transfigurations, everyone does better in those than they do in the class. Of course, we never get a heads up from the older students. So I don't think it would be an error for Harry to get into the classes. I think JKR did a nice job of setting us all up to worry about it. On the other hand, let's say Harry doesn't get into Potions. There will still be some reason for him to suffer Snape. Some older level requirement we haven't heard of, or just more nightime wanderings. And if he doesn't get into Potions, he'll either defeat LV thereby earning a waiver of the potions requirement for Auror, or he'll die in the battle, or he'll be tired of fighting anyway and become a pro quidditch player. Potioncat (who really wrote a me too post, but hopefully well enough that no one noticed.) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 17 13:27:40 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:27:40 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126221 Angie: > DD said that few people would recognize Voldemort as the young man > who was Tom Riddle, which leads me to wonder: Who else besides DD > and Harry do we know for certain knows that Voldemort is Tom > Riddle? SSSusan: Lucius Malfoy knows, since he's the one who planted the diary in the first place. I think it's a widely held belief that Malfoy stored several of Voldy's things while he was "gone," the diary amongst them. Even if Lucius wasn't necessarily trying to bring Voldy back via the diary scheme [I have my doubts that that was his goal], I do still believe he knew this diary was Tom's *and* Voldemort's and that they are one and the same. The bigger question is probably whether Lucius knows TR is a "mudblood." Oh, and to answer your other question, I think Snape does know, though I don't have canon to point to offhand to support that. Siriusly Snapey Susan From meltowne at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 14:04:44 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:04:44 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126222 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: a_svirn: > > Maybe it's just the way portkeys are made ? as a return ticket, > > rather then a single one? GEO: Then why outside the maze? He and Cedric were taken to the > graveyard at the maze's center so shouldn't he have been spit back > out at the center instead of outside the maze according to your > theory? meltowne: Maybe because he didn't change the ultimate destination of the portkey, but hijacked it. Thus it took Harry to the graveyard as a detour and then when he touched it again, it took him to its original destination. It also seems to me that if the portkey was able to transport Harry to the graveyard, then perhaps all of DD's guards on Hogwarts were down. Maybe it had something to do with the monsters and the way the maze was set up. That would also mean that any Death Eaters who were at Hogwarts may in fact have been able to apparate to the graveyard, and Snape might have been there, if he had been in a position to disappear without being noticed - or with DD's permission. We know Crouch Jr wasn't there, and Karkarov, but this opens possibilities for the other missing Death Eater. I think JRK wanted us to assume Snape wouldn't be there because he couldn't leave Hogwarts, but maybe he could. From ginny343 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 04:18:17 2005 From: ginny343 at yahoo.com (ginny343) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:18:17 -0000 Subject: A trip beyond the veil? In-Reply-To: <20050316000441.15372.qmail@web86709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126223 Fitzov wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126147 : > The Veil: > Sirius knew exactly what the Veil was and meant. In his brief > career before imprisonment in Azkaban he was an Unspeakable > and was involved in a research project studying the passage of > life to death. > > Finding himself locked up in his parents' old house, Sirius > resorted to an in-depth study of their books on Dark Magic: > > > In support of the theory that Sirius planned his own 'death' it > is notable that Sirius waits until Dumbledore has appeared before > staging the fight with Bellatrix (probably in order to ensure > that Harry is safe) and then 'allows' Bellatrix to hit him with > (probably) a stunning spell before tumbling though the veil. > > Clearly I am in SAD DENIAL, but it seems so obvious to me that > Sirius' death is not clean cut. There is no body, no reason for > Sirius to succumb to a wizard less powerful than himself, no reason > for Sirius to goad Bellatrix into killing him, and no reason to wait > until Dumbledore turns up to stage the final fight. And the veil > itself is so mysterious, with voices clearly emanating from beyond, > that it cannot be a final divider between life and death. Okay, I have to say that this very same idea has crossed my mind. The whole thing about Sirius researching and planning this during his long hours at Grimmauld and him intentionally going through the veil. Especially given that Lupin knew what the veil was, so probably Sirius did too. And as he is said to have been smart, it seems odd he would be fighting so close to it. However . . . several things have made me change my mind. First of all, Sirius is reckless - even JKR has said so (I think). We can only assume he got so caught up in the action (finally, he got to DO something) that he didn't realize he was so close to the veil. Or, maybe he was so sure of himself that he didn't consider himself in any danger. That would also be in character for him. The other main reason I have disgarded this idea, is that Sirius' "eyes widened in shock" and then "Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's . . . face" when he fell through the veil. Shock, fear, and surprise are not the words I would use to describe Sirius' reaction to something that he had been planning for awhile. Finally, I don't see how Sirius would have had any way of knowing that if a battle began in the MOM (only probable because the prophecy was there), that it would end up in the room with the veil. There seems to be quite a few rooms there. Anyway, I hope I haven't really cut you down. I hope maybe people will come back and challenge what I have just said. I rather like the theory and would like my ideas proven wrong. This is only my second post, so I am new and quite behind on the past readings myself. :) Ginny343 From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 17 14:45:21 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:45:21 -0000 Subject: The Future of SPEW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126224 I have done a very cursory survey of discussions regarding Hermione and SPEW on several web sites. It seems that most people feel that SPEW represents Hermione going overboard, and will provide her at least some comeuppance with regard to always thinking her opinion's are right and not realizing that other people/creatures see the world differently. I understand where people are coming from with this. Certainly I think Hermione needs a lesson in humility very badly -- or to put it another way, that she needs to be knocked off the high horse she's been riding at least since GoF. But I'm not at all sure that JKR shares the prevailing view of the fandom on this issue. If we look at what we have been seen/told about the House Elves apart from the discussions of SPEW, it would seem that JKR is very firmly in Hermione's camp. We have never yet seen an in-depth discussion with a happy house-elf, although it is strongly implied that they exist. The main house elves we have seen are Dobby, happy in his freedom; Kreacher, twisted by his slavery,; and Winkie, who was happy in slavery but whose former happiness is not presented as a positive thing, but rather as a stumbling block that leads her into alcoholism and an inability to cope with life. Add to this Dumbledore's remarks at the end of OOTP and JKR is definitely on the side of the abolitionists. I suspect that if Hermione gets a comeuppance with SPEW (and I'm not totally sure she will), it will be a purely tactical humiliation having to do with her methods like leaving clothes lying around randomly. I doubt she is going to face any kind of re-evaluation of her values or her overall strategy of working to free the elves. In other words, I very, very much expect that her opinions will be vindicated. I really can't imagine that Hermione is ever going to face some kind of lesson in cultural relativism in which she is expected to accept the house-elf value system or come to think that applying standards from the Muggle World is a bad policy. JKR just ain't a moral or cultural relativist - a fact I expect will become very much clearer in the next two books with regard to several issues. In any case, what are other people's opinions/expectations in this regard? Lupinlore From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Mar 17 14:46:22 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:46:22 -0000 Subject: Robe Malfunction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126225 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: Tonks_op: > The kids seem to wear what they wear in boarding schools. That is > the open robe over their regular clothing. Geoff: I think, for the benefit of our US friends, we ought to point out that only a few UK public schools have robes as such. One certainly is Christ's Hospital which is a school which my parents and teachers wanted me to go to when I was 9 and I was having nothing to do with these robes. Surprisingly for my age, I got my way. I think my mother had similar views to Narcissa Malfoy and didn't want me away from home. Most schools have fairly ordinary uniforms. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Mar 17 14:52:22 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:52:22 -0000 Subject: History and Myth Behind HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol, who has never encountered a house with a name outside British > literature (and photos of Frank Lloyd Wright creations) Geoff: Come and visit my road in Porlock. Every house has a name, but no number. Mine is "Cornerways" because, surprise, surprise, it's on the corner of two roads. Many of the villages here have named houses without numbers. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Mar 17 15:01:58 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:01:58 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: Siriusly Snapey Susan: > The bigger question is probably whether Lucius knows TR is > a "mudblood." Geoff: On a point of information, Tom is a half-blood, not a mudblood. his mother was a witch..... From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 15:02:20 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:02:20 -0000 Subject: The Future of SPEW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126228 Lupinlore: I have done a very cursory survey of discussions regarding Hermione and SPEW on several web sites. It seems that most people feel that SPEW represents Hermione going overboard, and will provide her at least some comeuppance with regard to always thinking her opinion's are right and not realizing that other people/creatures see the world differently. I understand where people are coming from with this. Certainly I think Hermione needs a lesson in humility very badly -- or to put it another way, that she needs to be knocked off the high horse she's been riding at least since GoF. But I'm not at all sure that JKR shares the prevailing view of the fandom on this issue. If we look at what we have been seen/told about the House Elves apart from the discussions of SPEW, it would seem that JKR is very firmly in Hermione's camp I suspect that if Hermione gets a comeuppance with SPEW (and I'm not totally sure she will), it will be a purely tactical humiliation having to do with her methods like leaving clothes lying around randomly. I doubt she is going to face any kind of re-evaluation of her values or her overall strategy of working to free the elves. In other words, I very, very much expect that her opinions will be vindicated. Alla: For some reason I absolutely agree with you ( strange, huh? :o)). I predict that by the end of 7 book house elves will definitely be free and moreover being able to enjoy freedom. I don't know whether we will discover that they indeed had been enchanted into liking slavery or something similar to that, but I suspect that the main message as to house elves issue will be that slavery is bad, period. I still hope that Hermione will learn that you cannot push people into accepting freedom, you have to at least make sure that they understand what does it mean to be free. I also hope that at least once Hermione will give advice to Harry, which will be very wrong and hurt them all badly. It would be nice if this advice will be somehow connected with house elves situation. Just speculating, Alla. From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Thu Mar 17 06:43:54 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:43:54 -0000 Subject: The theory of Harry Potter symbolising the Path of Liberation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126229 > Hans Andr?a wrote: > > And please note that the First name of the hero in "The Alchemical > > Wedding of Christian Rosycross" of 1616 is CHRISTIAN. > > > > So much for Geoff's and Tonks' claims that the Rosicrucians are > > heretics. > > Geoff: > I had noticed. Bear in mind that a person's Christian name (or given > name if you prefer) does not necessarily indicate what their > personality or world view will be. > > I don't think I have ever publicly applied the word heretic directly > to the Rosicrucians. What I have objected to is the fact that the > observations you have made in regard to the Path of Liberation have > taken Biblical passages and teaching completely out of their original > context and that you have implied that Jesus never existed as a > person. Rosicrucians are a bit like the people on the List, actually. They are playing mental games that don't attract everyone, but that they enjoy enough to take seriously. (Heresy is only useful as a concept in a monoreligious world anyway, otherwise people who care would never stop slinging mud in all directions while the rest of us dozed off.) However, it is undeniable (so far, anyway!) that neither Jesus nor the Rosicrucians get a mention in the HP books. Deborah From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 15:13:12 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:13:12 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126230 SSSusan wrote: Also, the standards Snape holds to in his own classroom just might be higher than the standards to which the examiners hold students, might they not? If that's the case, then achieving the "O" Snape requires might be possible for more students than think they can achieve it. Potioncat: McGonagall tells Harry he's performing at "Acceptable" in Transfigurations, but says he can work harder and make the "E" she expects. She also says he can make the grade in Potions. By this, I mean, looking at his current marks, she thinks he can perform well enough on the OWLs to earn a spot in the NEWT classes. I wonder in this case, if Snape did give him zeroes, because his other grades would have to be very high to keep his overall potions grade up. Could Snape have had some reason to hide Potter's true ability? Alla: Welcome back. I think you are stretching it a little bit with Snape having a reason to hide Potter's true ability in potions. Hide from whom? I never completely bought "Snape has to be nasty to Harry, because there are DE children in the class", but that I can at least understand. Could you elaborate a little bit? Potioncat: So it seems that the marks that these two teachers give are much harder to earn than the marks on the tests. If we could have wandered into the common rooms we might have heard older students telling the 5th years not to worry about potions or transfigurations, everyone does better in those than they do in the class. Of course, we never get a heads up from the older students. So I don't think it would be an error for Harry to get into the classes. I think JKR did a nice job of setting us all up to worry about it. Alla: You could be very right and I personally I was always pretty sure ( of course you can never be 100% sure with JKR)that Harry will get into Potions class from the way Potions OWL was set up. There WAS a Polyjuice question on theory, which Harry knew really well from experience and there was no Snape in the room breathing down his neck on practical. So, yes, I can see him in Potions class. I can also see him there for the metathinking reason of continuing ineractions with Snape, since I don't see Snape getting DADA yet. Potioncat (who really wrote a me too post, but hopefully well enough that no one noticed.) Alla: LOL! I know your secret now. :o) JMO, Alla From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 09:17:52 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:17:52 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: <20050316133714.96865.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126231 > Jina: > Tammy, I'm not 100% sure but I think Snape is one of the good guys. Also, I don't think that DD would want Snape to become DADA teacher for 2 important reasons: 1- It might bring back his DE ways (which wouldn't be good) and 2- Snape's potion classes are getting the most OWLs and NEWTs than any other wizarding school. > You know what else? He simply scares the crap out of students until they DO well regardless of what's placed before them, at his wrath of their failure. Neville, prime example. Chys From magistera at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 07:50:04 2005 From: magistera at gmail.com (magistera_coi) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:50:04 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126232 SSSusan "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > I'm also wondering where *Lockhart* would fall in this category > of "These Teachers Have Something Else to Teach." Into the "Harry > Must Learn That You Can't Always Trust a Pretty Face (or a Conceited > Blowhard)" category? Or perhaps it falls more into your next point: Jumping in (another new face here) - while Lockhart is pretty useless at teaching DADA, he's certainly effective at teaching Harry why one shouldn't be caught up in one's own celebrity. Granted, Harry doesn't so much need to learn this, but maybe Dumbledore thinks he should. After all, one of the (alleged) points of leaving him with the Dursleys, aside from the whole blood protection thing (which I personally think is very shoddy) is to keep him from growing up as TBWL, constantly aware of his celebrity. "magistera_coi" From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 09:30:18 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:30:18 -0000 Subject: Ron and Quidditch & Head Boy/Girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126233 > bboyminn: > There is an extremely high likelihood that Hogwarts will be > attacked. > > They are going to need a Headboy and Headgirl who are able to > function under pressure, who are good in a fight, and who are > able to take strong and immediate decisive action. Chys: They're also going to need someone who isn't going to leave the students behind on the good faith that they understood said instruction and run off to face the DE and LV when they do attack. I don't think it's in Harry's nature to stay back and babysit while there's trouble afoot. The students will need direction, guidance, and councelling on what to do in said situations as they develop as well as a show of strength that the HB is staying with them to help. One of the other students can do that, and I don't think it would be Ron either, he's the adventurous sidekick type, he's always in on the action, unless Harry tells him no, I'd think. Hermione might, but it depends on the situation. Personally I think she'd be good at it as HG, but it doesn't suit her, she would be caught up with her studies and then like with the time-turner, maybe have bitten off more than she can chew. She was already saying it was trying just being a prefect. I think someone else needs to fill in that HB position, when the time comes- Neville is out of the question as well. He's too vengeful and will be by Harry's side in that situation, given how he acted in OotP when the DE were attacking them. Give it to Draco or someone in Sl. to keep them out of trouble, that way they'd HAVE to be with the students instead of out causing trouble. Chys From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Thu Mar 17 11:04:21 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Fitzov de Sullens) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:04:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Another look at the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050317110421.89933.qmail@web86701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126234 imamommy at sbcglobal.net wrote: "I hope this isn't too OT, but I've been dwelling lately on thoughts of the Mirror of Erised. I hope we get another peek at it in the next two books. I have been musing about what Harry and Ron would see in it were they to look now, and what Hermione might see if she looked in." Fitzov: This is a wonderful thought and would be a great plot device to show how much the characters have developed. Somehow I suspect that Harry's vision will remain much the same as before. He will see his parents there, but they will probably have been joined by all of the other people that Harry has developed a great affection for. Sirius of course; but maybe also people who are still around him and whom he fears to lose (viz. the Woes of Mrs Weasley). Ron and Hermione, the entire Weasley family, Dumbledore, Hagrid, Ginny ...? I doubt that Harry will dwell much upon his own fate and the impending battle with Voldemort. After all, when confronting his worst fear in front of the Boggart, it was 'fear itself' that preoccupied Harry, rather than the embodiment of his potential nemesis. I would love to see Ron having developed in the same direction and putting his family and friends before personal glory. As other posters have speculated, Books 6 and 7 may well be the place where Ron discovers that there are many other things more important than becoming Head Boy or Quiddich Captain. Fitzov From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Thu Mar 17 10:50:45 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Fitzov de Sullens) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:50:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "Spinner's End" -- a house? (was Re: History and Myth Behind HP) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050317105045.62009.qmail@web86705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126235 Fitzov de Sullens wrote: > The Chapter Title of "Spinner's End" ... sounds more like a house name > than a street name to me. Carol responds: > Regarding the name "Spinner's End": I thought that "End" was a term used > in Britain for a cul-de-sac, which literally means "bottom of the bag" > (note Tolkien's pun in naming Bilbo's house "Bag End," which IIRC refers > to both the house and the cul-de-sac where it's situated. At the end of > LOTR, the street replacing Bagshot Row is called New Row but referred to > as "Sharky's End" as "a purely Bywater joke." > > Carol, who has never encountered a house with a name outside British > literature (and photos of Frank Lloyd Wright creations) Fitzov: It's very common for British houses to have names: particularly in villages and historic towns where the owners seem to think that '2 Main Street' is a bit boring for their lovely two-bedroomed bugalow. I'm no expert, but I think the term 'End' when applied to a house indicates that it is at the end of a street or at the edge of a village. 'Howards End' by E.M. Forster (one of the greatest novels of all time IMHO), refers to the house owned by Mrs Wilcox at the edge of the village of Hilton. And I always thought that 'Bag End' in LOTR also referred to Bilbo's house at the end of Bagshot Row. Assuming that Godric's Hollow is a village and not a house, I wonder whether this could be the location of Spinners End? If it is indeed Sirius' other house, this would make it very convenient indeed for visiting Mr and Mrs Potter for Sunday lunch. Wouldn't it be great if Harry had an early visit to Godric's Hollow in Book Six? Fitzov From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Thu Mar 17 11:28:18 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Fitzov de Sullens) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:28:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: All the possible OWLS - Who got what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050317112818.10976.qmail@web86703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126236 Fitzov wrote: > Has anyone considered the possibility that Harry fails Defence against > the Dark Arts? > > If Harry does fail, then I am willing to guess that there is no justice > in the Magical World that would enable Harry's mark to be reinstated. > This would entirely mess up his future career as an Auror. Carol responds: > I've always thought of DADA as a required course for students at all > levels regardless of their performance in earlier years. It seems to be > essential for survival in the WW, particularly in a time of danger like > the pending VW2. > > But ... if the new DADA teacher tried to block Harry from entering, > McGonagall would come to his defense as his Head of House and assistant > headmistress, pointing out that he received high marks in all the DADA > exams "set by competent instructors" (quoting from memory here). [SNIP] > > I very much doubt that the need for a grade appeal will arise, but if it > does, Madam Bones knows that Harry can cast a corporeal patronus, which > pretty much seals the argument as to whether he belongs in NEWT DADA (if > such a course even exists). > > Carol, who fully expects to see Harry as an auror in the epilogue to Book > 7 Fitzov: Replies to this post seem to be placing a lot of faith in Wizard Justice which, from what we've actually seen of it, totally stinks. Harry was lucky to get a hearing at all in OotP given what happened to Sirius and to Barty Crouch! I think Carol raises an interesting point when she says that DADA is essential to survival and therefore a course that is more important than merely receiving a NEWT in the subject. If Harry is excluded from NEWT DADA, I suspect there are several people who will ensure that Harry's DADA education continues regardless. Dumbledore and Snape will no doubt have something to contribute, and given that Lupin has proved himself a very able DADA teacher, private lessons over the holidays is certainly something that Harry could look forward to. I also disagree that being an Auror is the most suitable career choice for Harry. Assuming that he survives his final battle with Voldemort, I would have hoped that he would already have taken this career as far as it can go. Being an 'Unspeakable' seems to me a far more interesting and rewarding career, requiring plenty of courage as well as a reasonable intelligence. I think Harry needs to broaden his horizons, and failing DADA through Umbridge's intervention may well be the catalyst for this. Fitzov From tinglinger at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 15:44:42 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:44:42 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End - the death of Aragog ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126237 finwitch ------------- A street called Spinner's end (two locations have been found on a map), a house located at the end of > it - AND possibly a Spinner died there. Famous spinners in literature: Legendary witch who put Sleeping Beauty to her famous sleep... The elf who could spin gold out of straw... -- The Fates... Arachne; and the goddess, Athene... Oh, and I suppose that it *could* be Sirius' other house. Particularly if Sirius comes back as Stuffy Boardman... But it could belong to Flamels, too. And I'd say that Perenelle DOES know how to spin - what woman didn't 6-7 centuries ago? (and they could be alive. Albus may have erred in thinking that the stone was destroyed - or Nicholas made a new one - and well, it was never suggested that their death at the destruction of the stone would be instant!) Actually I kind of like the idea of Flamels-- who might even be Harry's relatives... ancestors: maybe they had a aughter (- or granddaughter - or-- well, you get it...) - who married a Potter: a wizard who may even have been working with clay those days... or some ancestor to Lily & Petunia Evans... tinglinger --------------------------- Hmmm ... or maybe it is something as simple as the death of Aragog and its effect on the demography of the Forbidden Forest? JKR has stated that Aragog had a strong influence on keeping the spiders in the FF in line (his role in the confrontation and capture of Ron, Harry, and Fang in CoS) and his death might free the spiders from the obligation to Hagrid and make them more predatory in accordance with their nature. Tinglinger who has started a group called potterplots to present theories and plotlines at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From lyraofjordan at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 14:53:29 2005 From: lyraofjordan at yahoo.com (lyraofjordan) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:53:29 -0000 Subject: Watching tasks 2 and 3 (wasRe: Dumbledore the teacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126238 > Geoff: > Don't forget the time of day. It was evening. > > 'They walked onto the Quidditch pitch, which was now completely > unrecognisable. A twenty-foot-high hedge ran all the way around the > edge of it. There was a gap right in front of them; the entrance to > the vast maze. The passage beyond it looked dark and creepy.' > > (GOF "The Third Task" p.538 UK edition) > > 'The maze was growing darker with every passing minute as the sky > overhead deepened to navy.' > > (ibid. p,540) > > Apart from the illumination where the Cup was, spectators would > have had trouble seeing a lot of the action because it was happening > on darkened paths. So a lot of the "fun and games" probably wasn't > seen. Lyra: This probably won't clear anything up, but Hermione addresses what they could see in OOTP (pge 251, U.S.) "Look, you don't understand what it was like after it happened," H said quietly. "You arrived back in the middle of the lawn clutching Cedric's dead body ... None of us saw what happened in the maze. ... We just had Dumbledore's word for it that You-Know-Who had come back and killed Cedric and fought you." "None of us saw what happened in the maze. ... " could be interpreted to mean they didn't see what happened at the end of the task (possibly because, as Geoff has pointed out, it was dark), or it could mean they couldn't see what happened in the maze during the entire task. From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 16:00:01 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:00:01 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com: Carol (message 126213) > My point is that I can see "Spinner's End" being both the name of a > street ending in a cul-de-sac and a house at the end of that > street. I won't try to speculate about whose house it is, but I'll > bet it's the place Harry goes after "the shortest stay ever" at 4 > Privet Drive. Finwitch (message 126218): > I myself believe that as well. A street called Spinner's end (two > locations have been found on a map), a house located at the end of > it - AND possibly a Spinner died there. > Famous spinners in literature: > Legendary witch who put Sleeping Beauty to her famous sleep... > The elf who could spin gold out of straw... -- what was his name? > The Fates... > > Arachne; and the goddess, Athene... "K": I would personally like to see 'Spinner's End' have a meaning other than a house on some street but surely that is a possibility. However, I do find 'The Fates' interesting. Below is some info. It's a bit long so feel free to skip to the bottom. ** my emphasis ~The Fates The Fates are mentioned in The Odyssey as the heavy Spinners.(The Odyssey, 07.097) ~Fate(s).The Fates are Clotho (with a spindle), Lachesis (with a scroll or globe), and Atropos **(with a pair of scales or shears) **. ~The Fates, or Moirae, were the goddesses who controlled the destiny of everyone from the time they were born to the time they died. They were: Clotho, the spinner, who spun the thread of a person's life, Lachesis, the apportioner, who decided how much time was to be allowed each person, and Atropos, the inevitable, who cut the thread when you were supposed to die. Even though the other gods were almighty, and supposedly immortal, even Hera had reason to fear them. All were subject to the whims of the Fates. Ministers of the Fates were always oracles or soothsayers **(seers of the future)**. The Fates were very important, but it is still unknown to who their parents were. There is some speculation that they might be the daughters of Zeus, however, this is debatable. ~Clotho, a goddess from Greek mythology, is the youngest of the three Fates, but one of the oldest goddesses in Greek mythology. She is a daughter of Zeus and Themis. Each fate has a certain job, whether it be measuring thread, spinning it on a spinning wheel, or **cutting the thread** at the right length. Clotho is the spinner, and she spins the thread of human life with her distaff. The length of the string will determine how long a certain person's life will be. She is also known to be the daughter of Night, to indicate the darkness and obscurity of human destiny. No one knows for sure how much power Clotho and her sisters have, however, they often disobey the ruler, Zeus, and other gods. For some reason, the gods seem to obey them, whether because the fates do possess greater power, or as some sources suggest, their existence is part of the order of the Universe, and this the gods cannot disturb. ~Atropos In Greek mythology, Atropos was one of the three Moirae, the Fates, the female deities who supervised fate rather than determine it. Atropos was the fate who cut the thread or web of life. She was known as the "inflexible" or "inevitable" and cut this thread with the **"abhorred shears."** She worked along with Clotho, who spun the thread, and Lachesis, who measured the length. They were the daughters of Zeus and Themis (the goddess of order.) It is not clear whether the fates were superior to Zeus or if he was subject to them as mortals were. The Roman name of the fates are Nona, Decuma, and Morta. ~Clotho was the spinner, Lachesis was the drawer of lots, and Atropos represented the inevitable end to life. This notion that human fate was spun around a person at birth by **divine Spinners** - in other words, the Fates - was popular in Greek mythology, poetry, and literature. Indeed, there is a compelling scene in the Odyssey of Homer that alludes to this concept of spinning fate. In time, the somewhat vague idea of three goddesses who supervised the **spinning of human fate** evolved into a more concrete concept. The Fates came to be identified as a trio of older females who handled the threads of human life. One of these threads was allocated to every person, and each goddess took her turn in manipulating this thread. Clotho selected the thread, Lachesis measured it, and Atropos **cut this thread** to signify the end of a person's existence. The Fates were known as Parcae (or sometimes, Fatae) in Roman mythology. ~The Greek Creation Myth In the darkness of the Greek creation myth there is a bird with black wings. This bird is making a golden egg from which the God of Love is coming. One of the shells from the egg becomes the sky, which is also called Uranus, while the other shell becomes the earth, Gaia. In the Norse creation story the world was made from an evil giant , while the world in the Greek creation story was made from an egg. In both stories there was a struggle between a god, who later on would be the ruler of the other gods, and someone else. In the Greek creation story, Zeus fought against his father while Odin fought against the giant, Ymir. I think the ruler of the gods had to show everyone that they were good and brave enough to be the leaders. Then the other gods and the humans could respect and trust them. It is also very interesting to draw parallels to Oedipus and Beowulf. Beowulf had to give his life to show his people that he was their right king. A king could never be afraid of death nor to struggle. Oedipus did not have to struggle physically, but instead he solved a riddle and that way he saved the people (B6). Not solving the riddle he would never have become the king. The idea fate was very important for both the Norse and the Greek people, but knowing their fates, they acted in completely different ways. The Greeks always tried to run away from their fate. ~In Norse mythology they instead prepared themselves to meet fates. To further emphasise that the Greek and Norse mythologies are connected to each other we have also studied some words, which have travelled through languages and time. Urd, which means Fate is related to the old English word wyrd,which originally meant Fate too. Today we have the word left as the ***Weird Sisters***. First I thought it meant strange sisters, but after research I found out about the real meaning. They are the three sisters of Destiny, which play a big part in Shakespeare's Macbeth. (B5) ~In its later form, Wyrd is the Nordic/Anglo-Saxon variant of the myth of the 'three sisters of Fate', or 'three sisters of Destiny' (respectively, the Greek and Roman variants of the same myth-group) - though there are some important differences in practice (see Wyrd and Fate). The basic myth itself goes back at least six thousand years, into a common Indo-European ancestry which has long since been lost. In the Nordic variant, 'Wyrd' is actually the name of one of the three sisters: the counterparts in Wyrd to the Greek 'three sisters' Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos Like the Fates, the three Norns spin, weave and end our lives - though exactly which sister does which task is never very clear... Unlike the dispassionate Moirai - another Greek name for the Fates - the three Weird Sisters treat our lives as some kind of wyrd joke, to be played with, tossed around, confused, confounded; Another part of the imagery of Wyrd, which is less easily understood in practice, is that in the Nordic view they not only spin and weave our lives into a weird, twisted fabric, but maintain life itself: together, they live beside the Well of the World, and use its waters to tend the roots of Yggdrasill, the World Tree. They are all- powerful: even the gods were subject to their own wyrd, according to Nordic myth, and would meet their end at the final cataclysmic Ragnar?k. We can't argue with the Fates; neither can we argue with the Sisters of Weird - and yet they do provide us with choices, with some knowledge of where a choice will lead us... that strange sense of 'impending wyrd'... Other Folklore: In many cultures, threads are seen as being spirit pathways. In the Romanian folklore, it was once believed that a vampire traveled upon the moonlight spun **thread of weavers** to drink the blood of the sun and moon. This vampire, the Varcolai, would only depart into other celestrial spheres **if the thread was broken**. >From OoP (not sure what page number): The one good thing to be said for this lesson was that it was not a double period. By the time they had all finished reading the introduction of the book, they had barely ten minutes left for dream interpretation. At the table next to Harry and Ron, Dean had paired up with Neville, who immediately embarked on a long-winded explanation of a nightmare **involving a pair of giant scissors** wearing his grandmother's best hat; Harry and Ron merely looked at each other glumly. ___________________________________________________________________ It is the *cutting & shears* that grab my attention, especially since Neville has a dream about giant scissors. ~ with a pair of scales or shears ~ cutting the thread ~...web of life. She was known as the "inflexible" or "inevitable" and cut this thread with the **"abhorred shears." ~ spinning of human fate ~cut this thread to signify the end of a person's existence. ~ Weird Sisters. - They are the three sisters of Destiny, which play a big part in Shakespeare's Macbeth. ~ We can't argue with the Fates; neither can we argue with the Sisters of Weird - and yet they do provide us with choices, with some knowledge of where a choice will lead us... that strange sense of 'impending wyrd'... and the dream... ~ Neville, who immediately embarked on a long-winded explanation of a nightmare **involving a pair of giant scissors** "K" From elvenlady0903 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 15:01:47 2005 From: elvenlady0903 at yahoo.com (Sandy) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:01:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ron and Quidditch & Head Boy/Girl Message-ID: <20050317150147.74661.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126240 Lupinlore wrote: > I think it more likely that Harry will become Captain than that > Ron will. The main arguments against him being Captain are > A) that DD might feel it would be too stressful and; > B) some feel that Seeker is not a good position for a Captain. Elvenlady: I would also like to point out that a captain needs to be able to observe the team while they are playing to find where they may need work. While it may be hard for a beater or a chaser, it would be almost impossible for a seeker. They have to keep their eye out for the little bitty snitch and as JKR says a lot in the books, Harry doesnt even see what is happening most of the time. Sandy From legacylady at prodigy.net Thu Mar 17 15:06:23 2005 From: legacylady at prodigy.net (LegacyLady) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:06:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Future of SPEW In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050317150623.60376.qmail@web80201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126241 Lupinlore wrote: > I really can't imagine that Hermione is ever going to face some > kind of lesson in cultural relativism in which she is expected > to accept the house-elf value system or come to think that > applying standards from the Muggle World is a bad policy. JKR > just ain't a moral or cultural relativist - a fact I expect will > become very much clearer in the next two books with regard to > several issues. Legacy: I have to say that I really liked the points you made in this. I had an overall feeling that part of Hermione's drive toward SPEW and freeing the house elves - particularly her actions in OotP of knitting clothes to set the ones at Hogwarts free - was so that Jo could give the readers a "direction" for Hermione. Harry's future has been pre-ordained - and not just by the prophecy (or, perhaps it IS because of it). He WOULD make an excellent Auror and so the reader can sit back and see what Harry would do after his years at Hogwarts were through - assuming he survives. Hermione's love of books and knowledge wasn't really enough information to tell us what her passionate drive might be after she leaves school. We learn that in OotP when she has her "career counseling". Her passion for creatures she doesn't feel are properly represented makes her ripe for entering that field. Ron's future, however, isn't clearly defined throughout the future and that makes me worry about him. Does he HAVE a future?? From StGgal at aol.com Thu Mar 17 15:47:25 2005 From: StGgal at aol.com (stggal) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:47:25 -0000 Subject: The Future of SPEW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126242 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: >In any case, what are other people's opinions/expectations in this > regard? I don't see why Hermione should have to (or be expected to) change tack...she is who she is: a know-it-all and I, for one, love her for it. That's not to say, of course, she doesn't have some growing up to do. But her view of the world is just as valuable as the next character's. That being said: I don't think we'll have to worry about her: I suspect she'll learn enough life lessons, either at Hogwarts, or beyond, to help keep that egocentric streak of hers fully checked and balanced. And let us not forget the Weasley Factor: as long as Ron continues to be somewhat of a foil-challenge to her, she'll always have someone around to remind her she's not 'all-that.' :) Sorry if this reply isn't in-depth and/or SPEW-specific enough, but I'm new here and this is my first post: I think I'd like to dip a toe in before taking a big plunge. :) Happy to be here, Helene From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 17 16:38:07 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:38:07 -0000 Subject: Ron and Quidditch & Head Boy/Girl In-Reply-To: <20050317150147.74661.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126243 > Lupinlore wrote: > > > I think it more likely that Harry will become Captain than that > > Ron will. The main arguments against him being Captain are > > A) that DD might feel it would be too stressful and; > > B) some feel that Seeker is not a good position for a Captain. > > > Sandy wrote: > > I would also like to point out that a captain needs to be able to observe the team while they are playing to find where they may need work. While it may be hard for a beater or a chaser, it would be almost impossible for a > seeker. > They have to keep their eye out for the little bitty snitch and as JKR says a lot in the books, Harry doesnt even see what is happening most of the time. Hannah now: We've already addressed that further up the thread. Both Cedric Diggory and Charlie Weasley were Seekers who were also team captain (and of teams that enjoyed success as well), so it doesn't appear to be that much of a hurdle. In fact, I would go as far as saying Seekers are better placed than many to observe the action. Harry often seems to hover around above the field of play, making him more able to observe the overall action than a Chaser or Beater who is right in the middle of it. Also, from what little we know of Quidditch and the way it's played at Hogwarts, it seems that the captain's role tends to be more to do with preparing for the game - motivation, tactics, and traning, rather than actual on pitch leadership. Just my opinion, of course, but I really don't think Ron's going to be captain over Harry. Hannah From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 17 16:39:07 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:39:07 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "magistera_coi" wrote: > > SSSusan "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > Jumping in (another new face here) - while Lockhart is pretty useless > at teaching DADA, he's certainly effective at teaching Harry why one > shouldn't be caught up in one's own celebrity. Granted, Harry doesn't > so much need to learn this, but maybe Dumbledore thinks he should. Hmmm. But what about the other students who aren't getting DADA skills? Granted, Harry is clearly the most important student at Hogwarts with regard to the coming war, but does that justify teaching him some vague, and almost certainly unneeded, lesson about celebrity at the expense of his own DADA education and that of 999 others? It's questions like these, combined with questions of practicality like how exactly Dumbledore is supposed to plan and anticipate and control unforeseeable and uncontrollable events, that make me think superpuppetmaster!Dumbledore, and for the most part regularpuppetmaster!Dumbledore, is almost purely a creation of fandom. > After all, one of the (alleged) points of leaving him with the Dursleys, > aside from the whole blood protection thing (which I personally think > is very shoddy) is to keep him from growing up as TBWL, constantly > aware of his celebrity. I agree that the whole blood protection thing is so riddled with unanswered questions (e.g. exactly what did DD say to Petunia?), plot holes (e.g. why don't the DEs just kill Harry while he's out of the house at Muggle primary school?), and character contradictions (e.g. an "epitome of goodness" who appears to be extremely tolerant of child abuse) as to be a major, major problem. However, the whole "not turning Harry's head" explanation is even worse, so I think we have to go with the first one, bad as it is. By the way, I tend to agree with nrenka on this one. That is I don't think JKR has the books plotted out in nearly the detail or clarity she likes to let on, and she may well have changed her mind about the reasons for Harry being at the Dursleys between Book I and Book IV when the blood protection first gets mentioned. That is she may have originally intended to go with DD's explanation to McGonogall in Book I, then realized later that just wasn't going to cut it and decided to emphasize an alternative that, unfortunately, raises as many difficulties as it solves. Lupinlore From cat_kind at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 17:36:21 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:36:21 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126245 > SSSusan wrote: > Also, the standards Snape holds to in his own classroom just might > be higher than the standards to which the examiners hold students, > might they not? If that's the case, then achieving the "O" Snape > requires might be possible for more students than think they can > achieve it. > Potioncat: > > So it seems that the marks that these two teachers give are much > harder to earn than the marks on the tests. (snip) > So I don't think it would be an error for Harry to get into the > classes. I think JKR did a nice job of setting us all up to worry > about it. > > Alla: > > You could be very right and I personally I was always pretty sure ( > of course you can never be 100% sure with JKR)that Harry will get > into Potions class from the way Potions OWL was set up. There WAS a > Polyjuice question on theory, which Harry knew really well from > experience and there was no Snape in the room breathing down his > neck on practical. (snip) catkind: Personally, I'd predict Harry an E in Potions. Not an O, but still significantly better than he has been getting from Snape, thanks to the Polyjuice question and not being loomed over. The problem is, if Harry really is an Outstanding student, then Snape will not only be landed with Harry at NEWT level, but he will also look rather silly after the comments he was making about Harry's work. Harry and his classmates would never take Snape's grades seriously again. I don't think Snape would risk being put in this position. There are teachers that mark down deliberately to make their students work harder, and I could see McG being one of them. Then at the beginning of the NEWT class she can congratulate her students on their good OWL performance. It's hard to see what tack Snape could take if students are consistently doing better than expected, I can't imagine him congratulating anyone outside his own house. I would think it out of character for Harry to get an O as well. Harry is set up as a bit of an everyman. It's repeatedly pointed out to us that he's not a particularly good student in general. He's only particularly talented at Defence and flying. Potions has always been one of his worse subjects, and we've certainly not seen him work particularly hard at it or take any interest. How can he suddenly be Outstanding at it? I've seen nothing to indicate that Harry is better at Potions than at subjects like Transfig or Charms, or that he is nearly as good at Potions as Hermione. Does anyone think he will get lots of O's and rival Hermione? Or just in Defence and Potions? Having said that, I'm also, say, 95% sure Harry will still be in Potions. I fear DD will force Snape to make an exception; I hope someone else is teaching Potions, so no exception is needed. In the latter case Snape doesn't have to be teaching Defence of course. He could be off spying or something. The obligatory Harry/Snape confrontations could come from Occlumency lessons or Order meetings instead of regular lessons. catkind From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 17 17:59:46 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:59:46 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126246 catkind: > Personally, I'd predict Harry an E in Potions. Not an O, but still > significantly better than he has been getting from Snape, thanks to > the Polyjuice question and not being loomed over. > > The problem is, if Harry really is an Outstanding student, then > Snape will not only be landed with Harry at NEWT level, but he will > also look rather silly after the comments he was making about > Harry's work. It's hard to see what tack Snape could take if > students are consistently doing better than expected. SSSusan: I would reiterate that it's not necessarily Harry doing a *great* deal better, but rather the possibility that the standards are different. What Snape calls "E" in his class may be an "O" to anyone else (or at least to the examiners), meaning lots of students are doing better than they realize. But I understand what you're saying about how Snape might then lose his advantage if his NEWT Potions class contains several people who apparently hadn't been cutting the mustard previously. But what about the possibility of Snape's announcing on the first day of NEWT-level Potions that the class includes... ahem [accompanied by significant sneer in Potter's direction] *some* students who would never have been included if the choice had been up to him... but that the graders of the O.W.L. examinations unfortunately have lesser standards which, equally unfortunately, he must accept. Also, as for Harry's view of himself, I could imagine him telling himself that he *did* just luck out in having had "easy" exam graders and having had a key question dealing with something he could answer well *in spite of Snape*, Polyjuice Potion. He would likely NOT believe he should be there himself. catkind: > Does anyone think he will get lots of O's and rival Hermione? Or > just in Defence and Potions? SSSusan: I think these two will be it for Harry, yes. I'd predict an E or A in Transfiguration and an E in Charms. I wonder if he'll actually fail Divination [as he seems to hope he will] or will end up with an A? And what will they do w/ the Astronomy practical exam they didn't get to complete? Siriusly Snapey Susan From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 18:11:40 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:11:40 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > I agree that the whole blood protection thing is so riddled with > unanswered questions (e.g. exactly what did DD say to Petunia?), > plot holes (e.g. why don't the DEs just kill Harry while he's out of > the house at Muggle primary school?), GEO: And would the Death Eaters under Lucius Malfoy be able to find where Harry was staying considering their disdain and contempt of the muggle world? Plus according to the prophecy only Voldemort can kill Harry however if the Death Eaters were to kill him then the prophecy would be proven to be false. and character contradictions > (e.g. an "epitome of goodness" who appears to be extremely tolerant > of child abuse) as to be a major, major problem. GEO: Again what would you have Dumbledore do? The choice of giving him to the Dursleys seems better than any imagined alternatives especially after Godric's Hollow. From siskiou at vcem.com Thu Mar 17 18:22:17 2005 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:22:17 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another look at the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: <20050317110421.89933.qmail@web86701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050317110421.89933.qmail@web86701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <502155066.20050317102217@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126248 Hi, Thursday, March 17, 2005, 3:04:21 AM, Fitzov wrote: > I would love to see Ron having developed in the same direction and putting > his family and friends before personal glory. As other posters have > speculated, Books 6 and 7 may well be the place where Ron discovers that > there are many other things more important than becoming Head Boy or > Quiddich Captain. I don't believe Ron's vision in the mirror actually means he wants personal glory. And I don't think Harry's deepest desire is somehow "better" than Ron's. If Harry *had* a family, I doubt he would be seeing them in the mirror. Humans tend to desire things they don't have, and looking at Harry's childhood, I can't think of anything that he could miss more. Ron has a family who loves him (no need to have that as his deepest desire), but said family has a lot of strong personalities in it, who tend to get all the positive attention, while Ron is the sixth son, and was followed by a baby sister who I strongly suspect got a lot more attention than he did, *because* she is a girl. Ron doesn't want personal glory (imo). He wants to be "seen". Not just as another Weasley, but as Ron. At home, Ron seems to blend in. No outstanding academic achievements to get him positive attention, and he doesn't appear to be a troublemaker to get attention that way. During the time Ron grew up, he saw how his parents reacted to his five brothers' achievements, and years of that can make it hard to keep up your self esteem. I'm actually proud of Ron's strength in sharing his family with him and not showing jealousy for that. After all, Harry outshines him in just about everything, and his whole family pays a lot of attention to Harry, which I could see hurting sometimes. It's great for Harry, who deserves it, of course, but I am trying to look at it from Ron's POV. So, to me it doesn't seem strange that Ron sees himself alone, with a lot of achievements, and Harry sees himself surrounded by family. And ironically they both wish for what the other has, and I think they are both learning that actually having those things isn't always as desirable as they imagines it to be. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Mar 17 18:25:42 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:25:42 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Prince"? (was Re: Snape as HBP) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1969994828.20050317102542@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126249 Sunday, March 13, 2005, 10:54:51 PM, someoneofsomeplace wrote: s> The way I see it, the term "Half-Blood Prince" pertains to some s> sort of champion of half-bloods/the half-blood cause. Didn't Voldy s> refer to DD as a "champion of mudbloods and commoners" (or words to s> that effect)? Is it just me, or is there some sort of correlation s> between these descriptions? Here's my take: My dictionary gives as one of the definitions of "Prince": "One very outstanding in a specified respect." Also, does anyone else recall this bit from the movie _Arthur_, between Liza Minnelli and her father?: LM: Do you know why women marry badly? It's because there are so many men, and so few -- princes. F: You met a prince? LM: I met a nice guy. But with my help he could become a prince. So I think it may be that Jo is using the word here figuratively for someone who is both a half-blood and in one way or another has "princely" qualities -- And I don't mean riches, rank, etc. -- Rather, someone who is a prince in their heart. -- Dave From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Mar 17 19:11:45 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:11:45 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > wrote: > > > I agree that the whole blood protection thing is so riddled with > > unanswered questions (e.g. exactly what did DD say to Petunia?), > > plot holes (e.g. why don't the DEs just kill Harry while he's out > of > > the house at Muggle primary school?), Hickengruendler: What reason do they have? Voldemort is gone. They don't know if he will return. Many of them just escaped Azkaban by pretending they were under the Imperius Spell. What reason do they have to attack the Boy Who Lived, if they don't know if Voldemort will ever return. After all, the really loyal Death Eaters were already in Azkaban. Sorry, but I don't think it's a plot hole at all, and I'm slightly surprised that you think it is, since it is in my opinion 100% logical. From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 17 19:21:34 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:21:34 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126252 > > I agree that the whole blood protection thing is so riddled with > > unanswered questions (e.g. exactly what did DD say to Petunia?), > > plot holes (e.g. why don't the DEs just kill Harry while he's out > of > > the house at Muggle primary school?), > > GEO: And would the Death Eaters under Lucius Malfoy be able to find > where Harry was staying considering their disdain and contempt of > the muggle world? Plus according to the prophecy only Voldemort can > kill Harry however if the Death Eaters were to kill him then the > prophecy would be proven to be false. Well, the Ministry certainly knows where Harry is, and Lucius has a lot of "good friends" there. A few galleons here and there would bring in some quite useful information. I think Dumbledore would disagree with your interpretation of the prophecy. Why would he say Harry was "in more danger than anyone but I appreciated?" from rogue DEs after his parents' deaths if the only person who could kill Harry was (temporarily) gone? And if he is afraid of OTHER things the DEs could do, once again it puts holes in the Blood Protection. Lucius seems to have any number of people under his thumb at the Ministry, and the Ministry knows where Harry is. Just stake out the house under an invisibility cloak, wait until the boy leaves to go to school, and kill/kidnap/maim, whatever. Now, if the Blood Protection would have protected Harry while he was at primary school, then JKR still has some major 'splainin' to do. Just how far does this protection go? And why were the Dementors able to attack Harry in OOTP? > > and character contradictions > > (e.g. an "epitome of goodness" who appears to be extremely > tolerant > > of child abuse) as to be a major, major problem. > > GEO: Again what would you have Dumbledore do? The choice of giving > him to the Dursleys seems better than any imagined alternatives > especially after Godric's Hollow. I disagree strongly and vehemently. At the very least DD should have sent Petunia a Howler saying "let Harry out of the closet or spend the next week as a mushroom." Of course, now that I think of it that would have been a slight on the Fungus Kingdom. Lupinlore From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Mar 17 19:26:45 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:26:45 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126253 > Alla wrote in 126230: > > Welcome back. I think you are stretching it a little bit with Snape > having a reason to hide Potter's true ability in potions. Hide from ?? whom? ?? ?? Potioncat now: ?? Thanks, I've been lurking a bit. To answer your question: I don't know. But it seems, from McGonagall's conversation in Career Advice, Harry is doing better than we might think. For that matter, I believe Snape expects Neville to pass. But I don't believe Neville thinks that Snape thinks Neville will pass. Throughout OoP Harry thinks Professor Snape has given him a zero. And we do have one case where Snape asks "No marks again?" But if Harry had all those zeroes, how could his course grade/marks be high enough for McGonagall to think he would do all right on the OWLs? Trust me,it is very hard to pull a zero up to a passing grade! So either he wasn't getting zeroes at all, or his grades do not reflect his ability. Snape tells Harry that he is a lamentable potion maker. I'm not sure if that is true. I don't think he ever said anything about Harry's actual ability in front of others. And I don't know what Snape's motivation is. The only person he ever praised was Draco in the first class, but it's Hermione who gets top marks. (Remember, I don't think Professor Snape is a good teacher.) Catkind wrote in 12645 > The problem is, if Harry really is an Outstanding student, then Snape > will not only be landed with Harry at NEWT level, but he will also > look rather silly after the comments he was making about Harry's work. > Harry and his classmates would never take Snape's grades seriously ?? again. I don't think Snape would risk being put in this position. Potioncat: But, all his students will do better on OWLs than they did in his class. I'm going by his comment that he has a high pass rate on OWLs and Ubridge's comment that the 5th years were very advanced according to Ministry standards. > Catkind: Potions has always been > one of his worse subjects, and we've certainly not seen him work > particularly hard at it or take any interest. How can he suddenly be ?? Outstanding at it? Potioncat: Again his performance won't improve (well, maybe a little) but the standard will change. All the students will be marked according to the Ministry's Standard, not by Snape's Standard. Also, we were told (In SS/PS I think) that Harry and Ron both made good marks. He doesn't do well in potions, but keep in mind, McGonagall thinks he can earn an "O" in Potions and an "E" in Transfiguration. > Catkind: > I've seen nothing to indicate that Harry is better at Potions than at > subjects like Transfig or Charms, or that he is nearly as good at ?? Potions as Hermione. Potioncat: He may not need to be nearly as good as Hermione to get an O. There just isn't anything higher to give her. He just has to get a certain percent correct to get an "O"? or an "E" and how he compares to her isn't important. We've seen Harry compare himself to Ron in Potions. But we don??t know how Ron did either. Hermione is the only one who seems to consistently get her potions to turn out properly, but I don't think she's the only one who passes. > > > SSSusan wrote in 126246: > > But what about the possibility of Snape's announcing on the first day > of NEWT-level Potions that the class includes... ahem [accompanied by > significant sneer in Potter's direction] *some* students who would > never have been included if the choice had been up to him... but that > the graders of the O.W.L. examinations unfortunately have lesser ?? standards which, equally unfortunately, he must accept. Potioncat: I would almost predict this will happen in HBP!!!! LOL! > catkind: > > Does anyone think he will get lots of O's and rival Hermione? Or ?? > just in Defence and Potions? Potioncat: Well, I'm not really sure if he will get an O in Potions. It's just that if he does, I won't feel it's out of character or out of the realm of maybe. What I really think is that he and Snape will continue to butt heads. I have a question for those in the know about the tests that correspond to OWLs in the RW. Would you expect to fail any? I know some students do fail tests, but in the WW it seems expected to fail,or rather take some OWLs but not all of them. Wouldn't you really expect most students at Hogwarts to pass the OWLs based on RW experience? The way these tests have been presented, we should expect that Ron and Harry wouldn't even pass them all. But certainly McGonagall expects Harry to pass Potions, Transfigurations, DADA and Charms. Potioncat who thinks maybe she's managed to post a reply to several posts at once and thanks everyone who helped her work it out. From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 17 19:49:49 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:49:49 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > > > > I agree that the whole blood protection thing is so riddled with > > > unanswered questions (e.g. exactly what did DD say to Petunia?), > > > plot holes (e.g. why don't the DEs just kill Harry while he's out > > of > > > the house at Muggle primary school?), > > Hickengruendler: > > What reason do they have? Voldemort is gone. They don't know if he > will return. Many of them just escaped Azkaban by pretending they > were under the Imperius Spell. What reason do they have to attack the > Boy Who Lived, if they don't know if Voldemort will ever return. > After all, the really loyal Death Eaters were already in Azkaban. > > Sorry, but I don't think it's a plot hole at all, and I'm slightly > surprised that you think it is, since it is in my opinion 100% > logical. Well, did the DEs think Voldemort was gone for good? I don't think we know that for sure. Certainly Voldemort could communicate at least during some periods of his ten years as a wraith. Did he communicate with some of the DEs? I don't think we know. This ties in with the question of Voldy's wand. Did the DEs save it after he was killed? Why did anybody do that if they didn't think he was coming back? Besides, if Harry really wasn't in danger then Albus' moral burden becomes even larger. If the answer to "where else could Harry have been safe those ten years?" was "Many places," as it would be were the DEs not out after him, then the only defense Albus has is "I thought Voldemort would be back, some day." Let's see, ten years worth of child abuse while Albus knew Harry could be safe other places but he believed in Voldemort coming back some day. So afraid was he he didn't even dare to intervene at Privet Drive while Harry was being abused. Right. Some wise, compassionate, insightful, unselfish epitome of goodness THAT is. And of course the future of the WW might be at stake, good of the many and all that. Sorry, but that kind of calculus is reprehensible and indefensible. From the wizarding side its "We'll let the kid suffer ten years of child abuse because Voldy MIGHT come back during those ten years and we MIGHT be in danger." In that scenario, the Wizarding World, and Dumbledore, are so fundamentally morally compromised they aren't worth saving. Lupinlore From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 19:53:27 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:53:27 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > Well, the Ministry certainly knows where Harry is, and Lucius has a > lot of "good friends" there. A few galleons here and there would > bring in some quite useful information. GEO: They apparently know where he is in book 2, but we really have no evidence if they knew where he was between the fall of 1981 and the summer of 1990. The only wizards he meets during that time are all people associated with Dumbledore or old Order members. > Now, if the Blood Protection would have protected Harry while he was > at primary school, then JKR still has some major 'splainin' to do. > Just how far does this protection go? And why were the Dementors > able to attack Harry in OOTP? GEO: Good questions perhaps these will be addressed in latter volumes. > I disagree strongly and vehemently. At the very least DD should > have sent Petunia a Howler saying "let Harry out of the closet or > spend the next week as a mushroom." Of course, now that I think of > it that would have been a slight on the Fungus Kingdom. GEO: But then would DD be the ultimate epitome of goodness if he was to threaten the Dursleys? And do you think seriously think that Vernon would then put up with the boy for ten years if Dumbledore tried to threaten them? In ten years they would have tried numerous ways to get rid of the boy and unless Dumbledore and his order's attention during that interim was focused entirely on the Dursleys, the Dursleys would have probably pulled it off eventually. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 19:58:11 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:58:11 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126257 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > Let's see, ten years > worth of child abuse while Albus knew Harry could be safe other > places but he believed in Voldemort coming back some day. So afraid > was he he didn't even dare to intervene at Privet Drive while Harry > was being abused. Right. Some wise, compassionate, insightful, > unselfish epitome of goodness THAT is. GEO: So out of curiousity where else did you think that Dumbledore could have placed Harry aside from Privet Drive after the debacle at Godric's Hollow? From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 17 20:09:10 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:09:10 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > But then would DD be the ultimate epitome of goodness if he was to threaten the Dursleys? Lupinlore now: Yes, I believe he would have been. Or rather just as much of an epitome of goodness as he was by not threatening them. Goodness doesn't always mean following the rules or even the laws. And a few threats to some Muggles that richly deserve them doesn't counterbalance turning a blind eye to ten years of child abuse. > > GEO: So out of curiousity where else did you think that Dumbledore > could have placed Harry aside from Privet Drive after the debacle at > Godric's Hollow? Lupinlore: Well, I take it we are assuming for the sake of this that Harry was in no danger from the DEs once Bellatrix, et. al. were rounded up? Albus himself admitted he had numerous options for families to take Harry. "Many would have done so, more than gladly." Or, if anonymity is needed, he might have placed Harry with a suitably screened Muggle family. My personal favorite at the moment is Phoenixgod's contention that DD should have said Harry died at Privet Drive and smuggled him out of the country with a fake name. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 17 21:57:50 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:57:50 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > catkind: > > Personally, I'd predict Harry an E in Potions. Not an O, but still > > significantly better than he has been getting from Snape, thanks to > > the Polyjuice question and not being loomed over. > > > > The problem is, if Harry really is an Outstanding student, then > > Snape will not only be landed with Harry at NEWT level, but he will > > also look rather silly after the comments he was making about > > Harry's work. It's hard to see what tack Snape could take if > > students are consistently doing better than expected. > > > SSSusan: > I would reiterate that it's not necessarily Harry doing a *great* > deal better, but rather the possibility that the standards are > different. What Snape calls "E" in his class may be an "O" to anyone > else (or at least to the examiners), meaning lots of students are > doing better than they realize. I understand what you're saying Susan, but I have to agree with catkind that for Harry to get an "O" seems quite a stretch. Granted Snape is hardly unbiased or fair in his grading of Harry, but as catkind points out Potions is a subject that Harry does not like and we have no evidence that he has ever studied or practiced it very diligently. Also, one would think that if there is habitually THAT big of a difference between class performance and OWLS in Snape's subject it would be common knowledge. Certainly it would be at every school I've ever had anything to do with. Yet Harry feels he might have scraped by with an "A." Like catkind, I think Harry will get an "E." If he has been just barely scraping by in Snape's classes I can see the combination of lowered expectations due to Snape's inappropriate grading combined with a dash of good with regard the questions that came up on the exam leading to him having that grade. Where will that leave Harry with regard to NEWT Potions. I suspect IF Harry is in Potions we will see that: 1) DD will force Snape's hand through a face-saving device of lowering the bar for all students due to the needs of the war; 2) Somebody such as Malfoy will need an exception and Snape will have to lower the bar himself in order to grant it; I don't think we will see Snape get DADA and/or a new Potions master. DD seems to have VERY good reasons for not wanting Snape in that position. I suppose it might be done as a bit of war strategy - for instance DD gives Snape the DADA post so that he (Snape) can fool Voldemort into thinking Hogwarts students aren't being taught well while the "real" teaching is going on in the DA. But even that I think is an unlikely scenario. But why does everybody think Harry will WANT to take NEWT poitions? We have already seen that his hatred of Snape has reached new heights. And somehow I suspect he has more on his mind these days than becoming an auror. I could see him agreeing to learn what potions might be necessary to fight Voldemort, but not from Snape. That leaves the possibility that: 1) Harry just doesn't take potions (which I think is unlikely in the extreme), or 2) Harry is tutored by some third party such as Dumbledore or McGonogall or even Hermione. This may not be all that unusual. McGonogall must know that Harry is not the world's greatest little potion brewer, yet she seems quite confident that something can be worked out for him to study for his NEWT. Given that Snape seems to have an antipathy for all Gryffindors, this situation may have arisen in the past. Lupinlore From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 21:59:20 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:59:20 -0000 Subject: As the 7th month dies... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > I believe that Dumbledore made a mistake interpreting the prophecy. > ..., it's more likely very *exact*! > > What I was thinking of the phrase 'As the 7th month dies' - well... > ... > > So, thinking globally, 'as the 7th month dies' refers to a 24-hour > period, beginning from Midnight at the International Date-line, on > GMT+12 - time zone, where the '7th month dies' and becomes 1st > August first. ... And, 7th month is completely dead when even at > GMT-12 time-zone 31st July turns to 1st August. > > And what does this mean? We've heard that Neville was born on 30th > July, which makes it too early for him to be 'the one' - ... > > Finwitch bboyminn: Well, my first thought is to make a distinction between... 'WHEN the seventh month dies...' and 'AS the seventh month dies...' Just my interpretation but 'WHEN' implies an event, a precise point in time; whereas 'AS' implies a process, that is a general span of time. Shifting the context to illustrate the point... 'When he died...' is the moment the person in question died. 'As he died...' implies a span of time leading up to /this person's/ death. In otherwords, by my interpretation, 'WHEN' it dies is, as you say, the exact time and place when the month dies. 'AS' it dies, could mean as the last week of July is winding down. Also, as I'm sure you know, there has been an agruement that SEPTember was originally the seventh month ('sept' being the prefix for 7). On the Gregorian calendar, September is the 9th month, on the pre-Gregorian/Latin calendar, September is the 7th month. While it's true this had been pointed out, I don't think JKR would enage in such an obscure reference. I think she says seven and means July. All that said, I think there is tremendous room for Dumbledore to have misinterpreted the Prophecy. Here is a classic example of a misinterpretation. Suppose, Voldemort kills Harry, and in a burst of fury and daring, Neville kills Voldemort to avenge Harry. Perhaps, Harry dying opens a vulnerability in Voldemort that allows Neville to truly kill him. That seems well within the scope of the Prophecy. Just a bunch of speculation, but none the less, there it is. Steve/bboyminn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 22:48:12 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:48:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the teacher (was: Umbridge, detention, scars, and plotlines, oh my!. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126261 > > GEO: Dumbledore controlled access of magical transportation such as > apparition, portkeys and possibly even floo channels because of his > position as headmaster. a_svirn: Except that he wasn't doing a good job controlling it. Still, I admit that your explanation seems most logical, even though Crouch Jr. story doesn't exactly confirm it. And the guy was under Veritaserum after all. > > > a_svirn: > > Maybe it's just the way portkeys are made ? as a return ticket, > > rather then a single one? > > GEO: Then why outside the maze? He and Cedric were taken to the > graveyard at the maze's center so shouldn't he have been spit back > out at the center instead of outside the maze according to your > theory? a_svirn: Maybe, Crouch's aim was a bit off? It's not like Cedric and Harry landed right near Tom Riddle's Grave. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 23:26:16 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:26:16 -0000 Subject: The Future of SPEW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126262 ---lupinlore wrote: > I suspect that if Hermione gets a comeuppance with SPEW (and I'm not > totally sure she will), it will be a purely tactical humiliation > having to do with her methods like leaving clothes lying around > randomly. I doubt she is going to face any kind of re-evaluation of > her values or her overall strategy of working to free the elves. a_svirn: Except that her methods are not *just* methods. They also reflect a certain set of values. And these values are getting increasingly slytherinish in the book 5, for she is not fussy about the means she's employing to achieve her ends. She is also being self- righteously arrogant, and this is hardly an attitude JKR would sympathize with. JKR doesn't seem to approve those who operate in terms of "worthwhile causes" (e.g. LV, Percy, both Crouches). And however worthwhile Hermione's goals might be I think when it comes to elves it's Harry who channel JKR. He is genuinely interested in Dobby as a person, and by now genuinely hates Kricher, whereas Hermione sees them all as a "noble cause" rather than persons. a_svirn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 23:40:28 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:40:28 -0000 Subject: The Future of SPEW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > ... regarding Hermione and SPEW .... It seems that most people feel > that SPEW represents Hermione going overboard, and will provide her > at least some comeuppance with regard to always thinking her > opinion's are right and not realizing that other people/creatures > see the world differently. > bboyminn: Oh joy... oh joy... a house-elf discussion, one of my favorites. Hermione's problem is that she has taken a very typically British colonialist attitude toward the house-elves. My metaphorical vision of how Hermione relates to the house-elves is very mush the image of how the British related to the East and West Indians (east=India, Burma, etc..., west=Americas). The British came to these places and saw these people and thought 'Oh these poor primitive people. What they really need is to be more British; that will fix them up'. Of course, the fact the both these places had cultures, religion, traditions, and civilizations dating back 10,000 years, long before Britian or any form of it ever existed, was completely irrelevant. Nothing is valid that doesn't validate /us/; colonialism at it's finest. In her typical colonialist attitude, Hermione naturally thinks it's the house-elves that need to change. When in reality, the house-elves are just fine, it's wizards that need to change. > Lupinlore continues: > > If we look at what we have been seen/told about the House Elves > ... it would seem that JKR is very firmly in Hermione's camp. We > have never yet seen an in-depth discussion with a happy house-elf, > although ... implied that they exist. ... Add to this Dumbledore's > remarks at the end of OOTP and JKR is definitely on the side of the > abolitionists. > > ... if Hermione gets a comeuppance with SPEW ..., it will be a > purely tactical humiliation having to do with ... leaving clothes > lying around .... I doubt she is going to face any kind of > re-evaluation of her values or her overall strategy of working to > free the elves. > > In other words, I very, very much expect that her opinions will be > vindicated. I really can't imagine that Hermione is ever going to > face some kind of lesson in cultural relativism in which she is > expected to accept the house-elf value system or come to think that > applying standards from the Muggle World is a bad policy. ... > > In any case, what are other people's opinions/expectations in this > regard? > > > Lupinlore bboyminn: With out a doubt, Hermione was incredibly shortsighted in her latest SPEW venture. Logic; house-elves are freed by giving them clothes, so she will free Hogwarts elves by giving them clothes...'nuff said, end of story, one bit of completely self-contained logic. Just one small piece she forgot, she doesn't have the authority. She can no more free someone else's house-elves, than she can walking to a ramdom business and start firing people. Teens are not noted for the great depth of their foresight, nor are the especially prone to attention to detail. What Hermione fails to see is that Elves are volunteers. The volunteer to serve the families they serve. (see my essays note below from more detail) They serve dilligently, faithfully, and loyally, and that service truly is at the core of their nature. House-elves are not people, they don't relate to life like people. House-elves are very special magical creatures whose very core nature is to serve, and that service brings them their greatest happiness and fulfillment. The problem is that wizards don't enter into that same agreement with the same dilligents, faithfullness, and loyalty. They take advantage of the good nature of the house-elves. They know that no matter how poorly they treat the house-elves, the elves are bound by a fierce elfin honor to their commitment. I firmly believe there is no force of magic or law holding house-elves to their commitment of a bond of servitude. Nothing holds them but, as I said, fierce elfin honor and centuries of history. What Hermione needs to realize is that elves do want freedom, but it's not freedom of self-determination, they already have that. They happily choose to be bonded by servitude. However, as intelligent sentient beings, they want and deserve freedom from oppression. Which means that it's wizards who are the flawed partners in this contract of servitude. So, what Hermione needs to realize first is that it truly is in the nature of house-elves to serve humans. That is the thing that fulfills them and makes them happiest. I know others will say the people said the same thing about human slaves, that they were happy being slaves, but this is different. House-elves are magical creatures who truly have an natural ingrained desire to serve others. But they do not have a natural ingrained desire to be abused, exploited, and mistreated. Although I don't know to what extent it will play out, as a minor point, I think Hermione will eventually get this. She will come to understand that there is no corruption in the Elves agreement to serve, but that the true corruption is in the wizard's abuse and exploitation of the good nature of the elves. From this understanding she will realize that, probably through the political process, it's wizards that need to be fixed and not house-elves. This end result fits with Dumbledore's many statement about wizards' interactions with all magical creatures. An interaction that very much models the "we are superior, we know what's best" colonialist attitude which is based in corruption and exploitation. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - For old hands this is all old news, but for any newcomers who might want more insight into the nature of House-elves, here are some links... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71752 Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:01 pm Subject: House-Elves & the Tie That Binds. (long) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/88208 Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 6:19 pm Subject: Re: house elves and laundry (house elves and goblins) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74080 Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:16 am Subject: Re: Goblins and House-Elves? Wild and Domesticated? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82881 Date: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:11 pm Subject: Re: Dumbledore's Army = House Elves (Note: in a Different Group) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/message/2309 Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:47 am Subject: How to Free a House-elf in One Easy Lesson These links will usually take you to the middle of a discussion, so remember to move up and down the thread to read everyone's opinions on the matter. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Mar 17 23:49:06 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:49:06 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > Well, did the DEs think Voldemort was gone for good? I don't think > we know that for sure. Hickengruendler: At least we know that they didn't do anything to find him. That's what Voldemort himself said during the rebirth in GoF. They are a sleazy pack who only help him, while he is powerful, and once he was gone, they only cared for their own safety. I still think that's pretty in character for what we know about Lucius Malfoy and the others. > Certainly Voldemort could communicate at > least during some periods of his ten years as a wraith. Did he > communicate with some of the DEs? I don't think we know. This ties > in with the question of Voldy's wand. Did the DEs save it after he > was killed? Why did anybody do that if they didn't think he was > coming back? Hickengruendler: Well, I think the wand IS a plothole. Therefore I don't expect any answers in this point. However, in JKR's defense I didn't realize this until it was pointed out to me by other fans. But even if Voldemort communicated with some Death Eaters (which I doubt), he knows that his Death Eaters can't kill Harry. (Or, if the prophecy is wrong, at least he thought). Therefore to order them to kill Harry wouldn't make any sense, since he knows about the probably and knows that he, and not a Death Eater, has to kill Harry. > > Besides, if Harry really wasn't in danger then Albus' moral burden > becomes even larger. If the answer to "where else could Harry have > been safe those ten years?" was "Many places," as it would be were > the DEs not out after him, then the only defense Albus has is "I > thought Voldemort would be back, some day." Let's see, ten years > worth of child abuse while Albus knew Harry could be safe other > places but he believed in Voldemort coming back some day. So afraid > was he he didn't even dare to intervene at Privet Drive while Harry > was being abused. Right. Some wise, compassionate, insightful, > unselfish epitome of goodness THAT is. Hickengruendler: But here you assume, that Dumbledore knew when exactly Voldemort would return. But Dumbledore didn't know, and therefore he put Harry to the save Dursleys, because it was theoretically possible, that Voldemort could return any day, trying to kill Harry. And Dumbledore explains all of this in the second to last chapter in OotP. > > From the wizarding side its "We'll > let the kid suffer ten years of child abuse because Voldy MIGHT come > back during those ten years and we MIGHT be in danger." In that > scenario, the Wizarding World, and Dumbledore, are so fundamentally > morally compromised they aren't worth saving. Hickengruendler: Well, I at least think that it was the best decision Dumbledore could make. It's all about keeping Harry safe. Voldemort might indeed have come back in those ten years, and in this case the first one in danger would have been Harry. Harry might havehad eight peaceful years, at, let's say, Lupin's place, but he might have died during his nineth. Not a good solution. I think Dumbledore knew, that whatever decision he would make, it would have been highly problematic, and I think he chose the least bad of all possibilities. I do agree with you that Dumbledore should have, if not threatened the Dursleys, than at least *reminded* them, that he has an eye on Harry and expects that they treat him at least civilly. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Mar 17 23:57:36 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:57:36 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > Now, if the Blood Protection would have protected Harry while he was > at primary school, then JKR still has some major 'splainin' to do. > Just how far does this protection go? And why were the Dementors > able to attack Harry in OOTP? Hickengruendler: I don't think the blood protection works at primary school. And if it did, than only because Dudley was around, another a blood relative. I'm not sure if the protection just works in the house, or whenever Harry is around a blood relative, but I don't think it's that big that it works in whole Little Whinging. The Dementors were not sent by Voldemort. Dumbledore did not say, that Harry was protected from all evil in the Dursley household (after all, Dudley punched Harry several times), but that Voldemort couldn't harm him, there. If we assume, this also mean, that Voldemort also can't harm him there indirectly, through henchmen (and otherwise it wouldn't make much sense, and it agrees with canon, since Quirrell, another henchmen of V. couldn't harm Harry in PS), this also doesn't include the Dementors, since they were sent by Umbridge, and hadn't to do anything with Voldemort directly at this point. Hickengruendler From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 00:15:53 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:15:53 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > Angie: > > DD said that few people would recognize Voldemort as the young man > > who was Tom Riddle, which leads me to wonder: Who else besides DD > > and Harry do we know for certain knows that Voldemort is Tom > > Riddle? > > > SSSusan replied: > Lucius Malfoy knows, since he's the one who planted the diary in the > first place. > > Angie again: Yep, forgot about that. SSSSusan: > The bigger question is probably whether Lucius knows TR is > a "mudblood." Angie again: Didnt' Harry tell Bella that in OOP? Or was it Umbridge? He told somebody. Surely word will get around. > SSS again: > Oh, and to answer your other question, I think Snape does know, > though I don't have canon to point to offhand to support that. > > Angie again: Yeah, I think the same thing, although I have nothing to back it up. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 00:37:34 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:37:34 -0000 Subject: Robe Malfunction In-Reply-To: <4239DD29.7291.1A14CAC@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126267 --- gelite67 wrote: > > OK, the subject is a little tongue-in-cheek but this really bugs me -- > > don't wizards/witches wear clothes under their robes? > > Shaub wrote: > By coincidence, during my recent readthrough of the books I gathered all the information > I could find on this. There's a rather mixed bag of information there. > > Angie (in awe) again: I bow before your Imminence! You reminded me of so many instances I had overlooked. I realize this is not that important in the grand scheme of things. I just wondered if anyone else had noticed this. OF course, it all begs the question of why wizards wear robes anyway if they are so concerned about Muggles not knowing about them. Looks like to me they'd try to blend in. Thanks for your post. From katiebug1233 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 17 17:35:25 2005 From: katiebug1233 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:35:25 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126268 a bit of snippage: > Angie: > > DD said that few people would recognize Voldemort as the young > > man who was Tom Riddle, which leads me to wonder: Who else > > besides DD and Harry do we know for certain knows that Voldemort > > is Tom Riddle? > > SSSusan: > Lucius Malfoy knows, since he's the one who planted the diary in > the first place. I think it's a widely held belief that Malfoy > stored several of Voldy's things while he was "gone," the diary > amongst them. Even if Lucius wasn't necessarily trying to bring > Voldy back via the diary scheme [I have my doubts that that was > his goal], I do still believe he knew this diary was Tom's *and* > Voldemort's and that they are one and the same. Katie: To Angie- I am pretty sure that Hagrid also knows that TR=V. He knew Riddle at school and was framed by him so I bet he is in on the entire story. We know that the trio are in the know as well as Ginny. (She says in OoP that she had been possessed by LV.) I have a feeling that Mr.& Mrs. Weasley know because they were told about Ginny's possession episodes. I wouldn't be surprised if more members of the Order knew as well. To Susan- If not to bring LV back, what else would Malfoy's plan have been? -katie From StGgal at aol.com Thu Mar 17 17:40:34 2005 From: StGgal at aol.com (stggal) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:40:34 -0000 Subject: The Future of SPEW/Ron's Future In-Reply-To: <20050317150623.60376.qmail@web80201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126269 LegacyLady wrote: > Ron's future, however, isn't clearly defined throughout the future > and that makes me worry about him. Does he HAVE a future?? I honestly don't see how JK could kill him off, I really don't. He'll be just fine--he'll graduate Hogwarts with top honors, will go on to woo and win Ms. Granger, land a job at the ministry and live on to make lots and lots of red-headed babies. Helene From andie1 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 18 02:35:02 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:35:02 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126270 Lots of snipping... DD said that few people would recognize Voldemort as the young man who was Tom Riddle, which leads me to wonder: Who else besides DD and Harry do we know for certain knows that Voldemort is Tom Riddle? SSSusan: Lucius Malfoy knows I am pretty sure that Hagrid also knows that TR=V. Mr.& Mrs. Weasley know because they were told about Ginny's possession episodes. I wouldn't be surprised if more members of the Order knew as well. Just a few thoughts on the matter: I'm pretty sure that the Death Eaters, at least the ones who are in Voldemort's "inner circle", know very well of his background. (Of course, this includes Lucius.) During the graveyard scence when the Death Eaters beg Voldemort to tell them how he has achieved the feat of returning to his body, he tells them the story... and of course, his father, Tom Riddle, was a part of the rebirth; thus, why they were gathered there. It surprised me slightly that in OoP when Harry is trying to get the DE's / Bellatrix angry, he mentions how Voldie is a half-blood. They act angry over this statement, but I'm assuming this is just because they don't like it to be mentioned and not because they didn't know. grindie :) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 03:51:16 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:51:16 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126271 Lupinlore: But why does everybody think Harry will WANT to take NEWT poitions? We have already seen that his hatred of Snape has reached new heights. And somehow I suspect he has more on his mind these days than becoming an auror. I could see him agreeing to learn what potions might be necessary to fight Voldemort, but not from Snape. That leaves the possibility that: 1) Harry just doesn't take potions (which I think is unlikely in the extreme), or 2) Harry is tutored by some third party such as Dumbledore or McGonogall or even Hermione. This may not be all that unusual. McGonogall must know that Harry is not the world's greatest little potion brewer, yet she seems quite confident that something can be worked out for him to study for his NEWT. Given that Snape seems to have an antipathy for all Gryffindors, this situation may have arisen in the past. Alla: Well, very true. As things stood at the end of OOP I could not see Harry wanting to be anywhere in close vicinity to Snape, but since as I said earlier I do see Harry in NEWTS Potions class with Snape, I can add another speculative scenario to two of yours. Suppose that Harry still wants to become an auror in HBP, accordingly he understands that he needs the potions NEWT to get there AND there is nobody else available to tutor him. Plot device? Yes, absolutely, but at the same time I don't see it as very contrived possibility that neither Dumbledore nor Minerva are very good at Potions. So, what I am getting at is that Harry may simply choose to endure Snape again, IF he wants to become auror that badly. I am hoping that if that happens, Harry will at least not allow Snape to treat him as punching bag anymore. Do I like such scenario? On one hand not at all, on another hand - I don't want to be deprived of Harry/Snape scenes. I would much prefer though to see Dumbledore or anybody else to tutor Harry and see Harry/Snape interact outside the classroom. Potioncat: Well, I'm not really sure if he will get an O in Potions. It's just that if he does, I won't feel it's out of character or out of the realm of maybe. What I really think is that he and Snape will continue to butt heads. Alla: You know what? I think I may just agree with you on this one. :o) I don't think that "O" for Harry will be out of reaching. It is not because I think that Harry is a hidden Potions genuis, not at all. I think that luck could have been just on his side on that OWl. Am I confusing? I remember my oral exams in high school. If I had to answer the ticket I knew well, I could get a very good grade, even if did not know the subject that well OVERALL. I don't think that Harry is that good in Potions and definitely not better than Hermione , but I think that he is better than Snape lets him think and with some luck, he may get an O. JMO of course, Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Mar 18 04:17:03 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:17:03 -0000 Subject: Leaning on the Dursleys was Hogwarts Teachers - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126272 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > > I disagree strongly and vehemently. At the very least DD should > have sent Petunia a Howler saying "let Harry out of the closet or spend the next week as a mushroom." Of course, now that I think of it that would have been a slight on the Fungus Kingdom. Pippin: One might point to Harry's relocation from the cupboard under pressure from the Hogwarts letters as a sign that it would have worked -- but -- and it's a big but--removing Harry from the closet wasn't the point of the letter campaign. The point of the letter campaign was for Harry to get his Hogwarts letter, and at that, it failed. Interfering with the Dursleys does not have predictable results. Pippin From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 04:37:23 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:37:23 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126273 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > Lupinlore now: > And a few > threats to some Muggles that richly deserve them doesn't > counterbalance turning a blind eye to ten years of child abuse. GEO: Which would then go along with the rest of the wizarding world's opinion of treating those that they regard as weak as their inferiors. Sorry, but I really don't see him doing it especially when he is a critic of the pov of wizards towards their "inferiors". And then there is the fact that the Dursleys were doing him a favor. They didn't have to take the boy in mind you and could have given him to the ophanage or the proper authorities. Threatening them especially when he still depended on them for Harry's protection wouldn't be a wise move. > Lupinlore: > Albus himself admitted he had numerous options for families to take > Harry. "Many would have done so, more than gladly." GEO: And how would he have known that they might not be secret agents and sympathizers to Voldemort? So far he knew Voldemort had compromised Wizarding Society even going so far to have a traitor in the order during the first war not to mention that putting a child with a wizarding family would give Lucius Malfoy and surviving DEs less targets to choose from if they wanted to avenge their master. Or, if > anonymity is needed, he might have placed Harry with a suitably > screened Muggle family. GEO: We don't know the extent of Dumbledore's relations with the Muggle World, but considering that he has to use a squib as his liaison I don't think Dumbledore would have the resources to pick and choose a family for Harry even if he wanted to not to mention the lack of protection that a muggle family would have in regard to wizards. My personal favorite at the moment is > Phoenixgod's contention that DD should have said Harry died at > Privet Drive and smuggled him out of the country with a fake name. GEO: But you seem to not see the disadvantages to that. Dumbledore doesn't have that much influence outside the UK (why else would he have Charlie Weasley start recruiting foreign wizard for the Order) and if Harry was indeed found by the Death Eaters, it would be much more difficult for the Order or DD to come to the rescue not to mention that there might be DEs unaccounted for who also fled abroad. From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 05:57:25 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:57:25 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecuti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126274 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > wrote: > > Lupinlore now: > > And a few > > threats to some Muggles that richly deserve them doesn't > > counterbalance turning a blind eye to ten years of child abuse. > > GEO: Which would then go along with the rest of the wizarding > world's opinion of treating those that they regard as weak as their > inferiors. Sorry, but I really don't see him doing it especially > when he is a critic of the pov of wizards towards their "inferiors". > Well, I can see that argument, but I'm sorry to say I completely and vehemently disagree with it. To balance his own conscience on Harry's pain would be a thoroughly indefensible move on Albus' part. It may, truthfully, be in character, but is certainly NOT the attitude of an "epitome of Goodness." Which, I think, is just to say that we need a LOT more information from Rowling on these questions. From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 05:58:42 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:58:42 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecuti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126275 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > > > My personal favorite at the moment is > > Phoenixgod's contention that DD should have said Harry died at > > Privet Drive and smuggled him out of the country with a fake name. > > GEO: But you seem to not see the disadvantages to that. Dumbledore > doesn't have that much influence outside the UK (why else would he > have Charlie Weasley start recruiting foreign wizard for the Order) > and if Harry was indeed found by the Death Eaters, it would be much > more difficult for the Order or DD to come to the rescue not to > mention that there might be DEs unaccounted for who also fled abroad. But you have just said that the DEs were not a threat to Harry. Besides, I still don't think Albus' attitude is defensible. To turn a blind eye to child abuse is NEVER acceptable. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 06:04:29 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:04:29 -0000 Subject: Leaning on the Dursleys was Hogwarts Teachers - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126276 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > . > > Pippin: > One might point to Harry's relocation from the cupboard under > pressure from the Hogwarts letters as a sign that it would have > worked -- but -- and it's a big but--removing Harry from the closet > wasn't the point of the letter campaign. The point of the letter > campaign was for Harry to get his Hogwarts letter, and at that, it > failed. Interfering with the Dursleys does not have predictable > results. > > Pippin Which in no way means it should not have been tried. Sorry, but I can't buy the "it was too risky" defense. Ignoring child abuse is NEVER justified. But, most of all, I think we need a LOT better discussion of these issues on JKR's part. Lupinlore From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 18 06:11:31 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:11:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: The Weasleys Message-ID: <20050318061131.65662.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126277 Paul tells us the body is a temple. "Do you not know," he asks, "that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? So glorify God in your body." (1 Cor. 6:19-20) The purpose of liberating alchemy, and hence of Harry Potter, is to bring back the Holy Spirit into the temple of the body. This human temple in our present state is very degenerated and not at all in accordance yet with Paul's statement. The preliminary process of alchemy is the transmutation and purification of the body to make it suitable for the Holy Spirit. The human temple has seven beautiful flowers which proclaim God's glory in the liberated human being. They also perform essential work in the alchemist's transmutation. These "flowers" are known as chakras and are actually force-centres in the etheric and astral bodies. They receive and distribute various types of energy for the person's needs, from energy to stay healthy to spiritual energy. They are connected to the endocrine glands and various plexuses. They look like convolvuli and are actually little whirlpools of energy on the surface of the etheric body. Their stem originates in the spinal cord. In the ordinary earthly human being the chakras are seven fetters that tie him down to the fallen universe in which we live. They rotate extremely fast and suck in energy from our "Nature of Death" as Jacob Boehme calls it. Alchemy slows the chakras down and then finally reverses their rotation so that they suck in energy from the Divine Universe, the Sixth Cosmic Plane. When all the chakras rotate in the opposite direction to their previous one, liberation is achieved. The Holy Spirit enters and death has been vanquished. It is apparent from their location on the spinal cord and from their colours and various other references that they are personified in Harry Potter by the Weasley family. Sometimes their symbolism refers more to the chakra itself, and sometimes more to the endocrine gland connected with it. The connections between the chakras, the endocrine glands and the plexuses that Jo Rowling indicates are not exactly the same as some people claim them to be. I can't explain that. It is obvious, to me at any rate, that the chakras and their glands are in the right order of age, starting with Ginny at the bottom of the spine, but with Bill at the top instead of Arthur and Molly. The reason for this will become apparent. I will deal with each member of the Weasley family in a separate post. I will conclude this post with a chart that I think clarifies the order of the chakras and the Weasleys. plexus - gland - chakra - Weasley (brain) - pineal - crown - Bill carotid - pituitary - brow - Arthur & Molly cervical - thyroid - throat - Charlie cardiac - thymus - heart - Percy lumbar - adrenals - navel - Fred & George solar - pancreas - spleen - Ron sacral - gonads - root - Ginny. When I have finished discussing the individual members of the Weasley Family I will predict what will happen to them in the end. However I think the Chamber of Secrets is a cameo of the whole process. This should provide a clue. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 06:22:19 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:22:19 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecuti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126278 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > > Hickengruendler: > > But here you assume, that Dumbledore knew when exactly Voldemort > would return. But Dumbledore didn't know, and therefore he put Harry > to the save Dursleys, because it was theoretically possible, that > Voldemort could return any day, trying to kill Harry. And Dumbledore > explains all of this in the second to last chapter in OotP. Actually, no, I don't assume that. I just think his reasoning of letting Harry suffer is morally unjustified. It amounts to stopping his ears, closing his eyes, and constantly muttering "Voldemort might be coming," to himself to drown out the sound of a child crying in a closet -- if he was even bothering to pay attention to the consequences of his decision at all. Although I can readily see how this might be one of the "old man's mistakes" he alludes to. Nevertheless, in particular with regard to the question of why he did not intervene to protect Harry from some of the Dursleys' abuse, I think his explanation in OOTP begs far too many questions. > I do agree with you that Dumbledore should have, if not threatened > the Dursleys, than at least *reminded* them, that he has an eye on > Harry and expects that they treat him at least civilly. And this is one of the nubs of the whole rather heated debate over DD and the Dursleys. Without an answer to this, at best DD looks mealy mouthed in OOTP. At worst he comes off as manipulative and cold-hearted -- i.e. regarding Harry as an asset who has to be kept locked in a closet at all costs vs. seeing him as a human being with real needs. I certainly hope that JKR doesn't think DD's little speech at the end of OOTP settles the issue. After all, she was the one who brought up the whole "epitome of goodness" characterization. There are still a lot questions that need to be answered before DD can get off the hook. Lupinlore From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Mar 18 07:59:16 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:59:16 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126279 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: grindie: > It surprised me slightly that in OoP when Harry is trying to get the > DE's / Bellatrix angry, he mentions how Voldie is a half-blood. > They act angry over this statement, but I'm assuming this is just > because they don't like it to be mentioned and not because they > didn't know. Geoff: This may remain as one of those bits of information about which we can only speculate. My reading is that Bellatrix didn't know. Why? Because twice at least she uses the term "half-blood" as a pejorative term. '"Shut your mouth!" Bellatrix shrieked. "You dare speak his name with your unworthy lips, you dare besmirch it with your half-blood's tongue, you dare - " "Did you know he's a half-blood too?" said Harry recklessly. Hermione gave a little moan in his ear. "Voldemort? Yeah, his mother was a witch but his dad was a Muggle - or has he been telling you lot he's pure-blood?"' (OOTP "Beyond the Veil" pp.691-692 UK edition) '"He dares - he dares - " shrieked Bellatrix incoherently, "he stands there - filthy half-blood - "' (ibid. p.692) (Poor girl's got herself in quite a tizz hasn't she?) Her reaction is so violent that I read it as Harry attacking something she holds very dear. And it it his response to /her/ insult that triggers off his exchange. Why did she choose that particular wording? She could quite easily have chosen other ways of putting Harry down. Mocking his age and lack of experience for example. No, I feel that Voldemort has carefully hidden his background from the Death Eaters. We know that he was known as Voldemort to a small circle of friends when he was at Hogwarts but poeple like Bellatrix are from a later generation who have been indoctrinated with the pureblood theories. However, as I said at the start, we may never know for certain. From josturgess at eircom.net Fri Mar 18 10:42:14 2005 From: josturgess at eircom.net (mooseming) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:42:14 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126280 General thoughts following Lupinlore and Alla ... The interesting thing to me is how, and why, JKR has deliberately set up the potions conflict, she has gone out of her way to give us a great deal of info on Harry's potion requirements and has made it very hard for him to meet them convincingly. We know Harry must take potions to study to be an auror. We know Snape only accepts students with an `O' pass. Harry has done better than we might have predicted as he and Neville both performed well in the practical because Snape wasn't there. Plus Harry had a polyjuice question in his written exam. Plus Umbridge comments on how advanced the class as a whole is. However, to get an `O' must be exceptionally hard and we have no real reason to believe Harry would have gained anything more than an `E'. He finds the written paper difficult and believes after his practical that he should have passed if not very well. So why did JKR have Snape set the NEWT acceptance level so high? If she simply wanted Harry to take potions and surprise/irritate Snape then she could have set the grade as in Transfiguration to `E', but she didn't. She could want Harry to take potions against Snape's wishes (some have suggested McGonagall/DD could ensure this) this would provide a believable excuse for Snape to further humiliate Harry and good motivation for Harry to begin to fight back by working hard to prove his worth. In terms of Harry growing up it makes sense that with the information from the prophecy plus his experience teaching the DA he will start to apply himself as a student. In potions he could start to work at a subject that isn't his forte. He could learn that to overcome adversity it is necessary to engage in the unpleasant but it is also empowering to face your enemy on his own ground and, if not win, at least stand proud. Harry could gain confidence whilst the hostility between Snape and him could become more personal and more overt. But what of Neville? If he is to become a healer, as some believe, then he needs to take potions too. Is Snape going to have to continue to teach him as well? Mind you I wouldn't put it past JKR to have a little joke with both us and Snape and give Neville an `O'! Of course neither Harry or Neville could take potions at all, but given that the adult cover of the UK edition of HBP is a potions book that seems unlikely. Snape could refuse to teach them and they could find an alternate teacher but that disrupts the Snape/Harry/Neville dynamic too much in my opinion. Or JKR could be using the potions dilemma as a distraction when Snape moves to the DADA post. Harry (and the reader) could be forgiven for not dwelling on the why DD changed his mind so much as the benefit to Harry. I imagine the conversation with Ron would go something like this: Harry `But why did DD give Snape the DADA position after all this time?' Ron `Listen mate don't worry about it. Now we can take potions and become aurors. Its what you want isn't it?' Harry `Yeah but Snape teaching DADA its going to be a nightmare!' Ron `You're good at DADA, Snape won't be able to pick on you right. Hey, you'll really show him up!' Harry was really dreading his first DADA lesson but it turned out Ron was right. Snape started out by asking Harry the most difficult questions imaginable but Harry was able to answer them all. Snape quickly left Harry alone and concentrated on ignoring him completely which suited Harry. Snape was a surprisingly good teacher and Harry could hardly believe he would have enjoyed one of his classes so much! He agreed with Ron, whatever DD's reasons for changing his mind it had certainly improved life at Hogwarts for Harry. End of discussion . Then I'm left asking why has JKR moved Snape to DADA now, where does that take us? Who is the new potions master? I'm sure of one thing only, JKR has created the potions dilemma for a very good reason, I just don't know what it is! Regards Jo From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 11:24:54 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:24:54 -0000 Subject: Filk: Magichood March Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126281 This is based on Motherhood March from "Hello, Dolly". If you haven't seen it, let me take a second to set you up on what happens during the song. Barnaby and Cornelius are playing hookey from work, take a trip to New York and end up in a hat shop trying to evade their boss, Horace, who wanders in after them. They hide. The hat shop owner, Mrs. Malloy, her assistant Minnie, and Dolly are trying to help them escape by distracting Horace. They sing a song consisting of patriotic-sounding non sequiters as they march him around the room. None of it makes sense in the original either. I took that idea and ran with it. To CMC The scene: OoP ch. 22 Harry and the Weasley children are in Dumbledore's office awaiting the portkey. Fawkes' warning tells them that Umbridge is on her way. Dumbledore says, "Minerva, go and head her off- tell her any story." Now, in a rare behind the scenes view, unauthorized, yea, undreampt of by JKR herself, we find out just how Minerva managed to hold the toadlady at bay. Dashing down the steps, McGonnagal muttered bracingly to herself, "Tell her any story, but what?" "Ah, Pamona, Filius," she gasped spying Sprout and Flitwick on the stairwell, "I need your help. Umbridge is on her way to the Headmaster's office and we need to stop her." "Stop her?" squeaked Flitwick. "Surely she won't stand for..." "Stand for what?" simpered Umbridge hefting her rotund form around a bend in the stairs. "Why," McGonnagal floundered, "Why, it's important to know what you stand for. Why, I stand for... a lot of things...important things... (cue music)..." McGonnagal takes Umbridge by the arm, marches her around the landing a few times and back down the stairs as she sings: McGonnagal: I stand for magichood, the ministry and a good broom for orphans. Take off you hat, ma'am, Dilys Derwent's ghost is passing. Do you see him free the world of Grindlewald? Near th' historic Queerditch Marsh? If you see him with Ghouls Gadding down at Fortiscue's, Stand up and march, march, march. Sprout takes Umbridge by the other arm, leading her further down the stairs as the music vamps: Sprout: Has this not effected you, Ma'am? I stand for magichood, the ministry and a good broom for orphans. Lower your wand, ma'am, Kennilworthy Whisp is writing. Do you see him sulking in the Shreiking Shack? Near St. Mungo's entry arch? If you see him playing Gobstones with the Giant Squid, Stand up and march, march, march. As the music again vamps, Flitwick takes his turn on Umbridge's arm. The ladies do a reprise of their verses as Flitwick sings a countermelody: Flitwick: Diagon, just go down to Diagon. "I regret that I had but one Year with the Yeti." In the words of Muldoon, "Naught but a Goblin could ope' the door." "Yes, dad, I can escape Azkaban!" MM, PS, and FF: If you see him chasing blooders in the Queerditch March. Bertie, Bertie, Bertie Botts' beans! Stand up and march, march, march. MM: Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! MM, PS, and FF: March, march, march. PS: Damn all the stunners, death's an adventure! MM, PS, and FF: March, march, march! Umbridge finds herself in the Great Hall, and realizing she's been had, charges out and heads back to Dumbledore's office. Ginger, noting that "vamp" in this case has nothing to do with Snape. We won't ask what Sprout and Flitwick were doing up after hours. From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 12:14:25 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:14:25 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecution ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126282 "lupinlore" : --- afraid > was he he didn't even dare to intervene at Privet Drive while Harry > was being abused. Right. Some wise, compassionate, insightful, > unselfish epitome of goodness THAT is. > > And of course the future of the WW might be at stake, good of the > many and all that. Sorry, but that kind of calculus is > reprehensible and indefensible. From the wizarding side its "We'll > let the kid suffer ten years of child abuse because Voldy MIGHT come > back during those ten years and we MIGHT be in danger." In that > scenario, the Wizarding World, and Dumbledore, are so fundamentally > morally compromised they aren't worth saving. Finwitch: Well, I think this is a case of 'presume innocent' until proven guilty. That is a very strong theme in the books, isn't it? As such, Dumbledore is bound to trust the Dursleys... who ARE Harry's relatives, and there's that ancient blood-protection to go with... Yes, we get very much of the bad side of this principle in the beginning of PS, but Harry's also being accused and sent to his cupboard all along... AND the Snape/Quirrell-thing... Then comes the CoS: Harry's wrongly accused by wizards... Harry's to suspects: Malfoy and Hagrid, are proven innocent... (and Harry as well). PoA: Well, Sirius' wrongful imprisonment et al. is the BIG theme in here... GoF: Harry did NOT put his name into the Goblet... OOP: Well, Harry's in the centre of accusations, particularly by Umbridge... Finwitch From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Mar 18 12:31:32 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:31:32 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126283 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > > General thoughts following Lupinlore and Alla ... > > The interesting thing to me is how, and why, JKR has deliberately > set up the potions conflict, she has gone out of her way to give us > a great deal of info on Harry's potion requirements and has made it > very hard for him to meet them convincingly. > > We know Harry must take potions to study to be an auror. > We know Snape only accepts students with an `O' pass. > > Harry has done better than we might have predicted as he and Neville > both performed well in the practical because Snape wasn't there. > Plus Harry had a polyjuice question in his written exam. Plus > Umbridge comments on how advanced the class as a whole is. > > However, to get an `O' must be exceptionally hard and we have no > real reason to believe Harry would have gained anything more than > an `E'. He finds the written paper difficult and believes after his > practical that he should have passed if not very well. > > So why did JKR have Snape set the NEWT acceptance level so high? Hickengruendler: Since reading OotP, I was sure, that Harry would take potions. I think he'll become an Auror, and if he has to take Potions to become an Auror, then he somehow will be able to take the subject. Until I read this, I thought that Harry would either take an O in Potions, or Snape would drop the standard a bit, either because Hermione is the only one who got an O, or because it's war and Dumbledore convinces Snape to accept more students, so that they can prepare themselves (although of course DADA would be the more important defense subject). But your last question is really interesting. My first answer would be, to show again, how ridiculousy high Snape's standards are. But maybe there's more to it. > She could want Harry to take potions against > Snape's wishes (some have suggested McGonagall/DD could ensure this) > this would provide a believable excuse for Snape to further > humiliate Harry and good motivation for Harry to begin to fight back > by working hard to prove his worth. In terms of Harry growing up it > makes sense that with the information from the prophecy plus his > experience teaching the DA he will start to apply himself as a > student. In potions he could start to work at a subject that isn't > his forte. He could learn that to overcome adversity it is > necessary to engage in the unpleasant but it is also empowering to > face your enemy on his own ground and, if not win, at least stand > proud. Harry could gain confidence whilst the hostility between > Snape and him could become more personal and more overt. Hickengruendler: And to be honest, I would agree with Snape if that were the case. I really think Harry deserves to become an Auror, he already is much better in fighting Death Eaters than many grown ups are, but if nobody who hasn't got an O gets in Advanced Potions, and only Harry does, that would be absolutely unfair. Of course it would make roon for some interesting Snape/Harry interaction, but I really hope it's not the case. > > But what of Neville? If he is to become a healer, as some believe, > then he needs to take potions too. Is Snape going to have to > continue to teach him as well? Mind you I wouldn't put it past JKR > to have a little joke with both us and Snape and give Neville an `O'! Hickengruendler: I still think Neville will be the classmate who JKR promised us will become a teacher. And I hope it's in DADA, although I think Herbology is more likely. > Or JKR could be using the potions dilemma as a distraction when > Snape moves to the DADA post. Harry (and the reader) could be > forgiven for not dwelling on the why DD changed his mind so much as > the benefit to Harry. I imagine the conversation with Ron would go > something like this: > > Harry `But why did DD give Snape the DADA position after all this > time?' > Ron `Listen mate don't worry about it. Now we can take potions and > become aurors. Its what you want isn't it?' > Harry `Yeah but Snape teaching DADA its going to be a nightmare!' > Ron `You're good at DADA, Snape won't be able to pick on you right. > Hey, you'll really show him up!' > > Harry was really dreading his first DADA lesson but it turned out > Ron was right. Snape started out by asking Harry the most difficult > questions imaginable but Harry was able to answer them all. Snape > quickly left Harry alone and concentrated on ignoring him completely > which suited Harry. Snape was a surprisingly good teacher and Harry > could hardly believe he would have enjoyed one of his classes so > much! He agreed with Ron, whatever DD's reasons for changing his > mind it had certainly improved life at Hogwarts for Harry. > > End of discussion . Hickengruendler: There are two reasons why I hope you are wrong. 1.) It would be boring if Harry suddenly got along with Snape in class. Sure, we all want to see them working together, but not this way. Too easy, IMO. 2.) I adore Snape as a character, and if he becomes DADA teacher in book 6, than we might lose him before book 7, and that would be a shame. Or might JKR change her pattern and keep the DADA teacher for the last two years. Hickengruendler From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 13:01:34 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:01:34 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart (was History at Hogwarts) (was Re: Wizard Persecuti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126284 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > > Finwitch: > > Well, I think this is a case of 'presume innocent' until proven > guilty. That is a very strong theme in the books, isn't it? As such, > Dumbledore is bound to trust the Dursleys... who ARE Harry's > relatives, and there's that ancient blood-protection to go with... > > Yes, we get very much of the bad side of this principle in the > beginning of PS, but Harry's also being accused and sent to his > cupboard all along... AND the Snape/Quirrell-thing... > > Then comes the CoS: Harry's wrongly accused by wizards... Harry's to > suspects: Malfoy and Hagrid, are proven innocent... (and Harry as > well). > > PoA: Well, Sirius' wrongful imprisonment et al. is the BIG theme in > here... > > GoF: Harry did NOT put his name into the Goblet... > > OOP: Well, Harry's in the centre of accusations, particularly by > Umbridge... > > Finwitch I'm afraid I don't quite understand your point, Finwitch. I'm not trying to be snotty, just genuinely a little confused. Do you mean that DD was ignorant of abuse/trusted the Dursleys because of this principle or (which is what I think you mean) that judgment on DD should be suspended pending further info? Or perhaps both? Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 13:15:44 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:15:44 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126285 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > > General thoughts following Lupinlore and Alla ... > > The interesting thing to me is how, and why, JKR has deliberately > set up the potions conflict, she has gone out of her way to give us > a great deal of info on Harry's potion requirements and has made it > very hard for him to meet them convincingly. > > We know Harry must take potions to study to be an auror. Well, to be fair, we know that to be an auror Harry needs five NEWTS and McGONOGALL recommends that one of them be in Potions. It is theoretically possible for him to take a NEWT in another subject and meet the Ministry requirement. > We know Snape only accepts students with an `O' pass. > > Harry has done better than we might have predicted as he and Neville > both performed well in the practical because Snape wasn't there. > Plus Harry had a polyjuice question in his written exam. Plus > Umbridge comments on how advanced the class as a whole is. > > However, to get an `O' must be exceptionally hard and we have no > real reason to believe Harry would have gained anything more than > an `E'. He finds the written paper difficult and believes after his > practical that he should have passed if not very well. > > So why did JKR have Snape set the NEWT acceptance level so high? > > If she simply wanted Harry to take potions and surprise/irritate > Snape then she could have set the grade as in Transfiguration > to `E', but she didn't. She could want Harry to take potions against > Snape's wishes (some have suggested McGonagall/DD could ensure this) > this would provide a believable excuse for Snape to further > humiliate Harry and good motivation for Harry to begin to fight back > by working hard to prove his worth. In terms of Harry growing up it > makes sense that with the information from the prophecy plus his > experience teaching the DA he will start to apply himself as a > student. In potions he could start to work at a subject that isn't > his forte. He could learn that to overcome adversity it is > necessary to engage in the unpleasant but it is also empowering to > face your enemy on his own ground and, if not win, at least stand > proud. Harry could gain confidence whilst the hostility between > Snape and him could become more personal and more overt. > Actually, I lean toward the following scenario: Draco Malfoy gets an "E." Snape must make an exception for him, as favoring Draco would shore up Snape's position with the DEs. However, Dumbledore insists, with that irritating (to Snape) twinkle in his eye that the only way Snape can make an exception is to lower the bar across the board. That lets Harry (and possibly Ron and Neville) into Advanced Potions. This sets up a very interesting situation. Snape is furious and humiliated to have Harry in his class, especially since Harry is inclined to make Snape's life miserable as much as humanly possible. However, Snape is also showing cracks in his facade with regard to Malfoy. The boy has proven himself less than up to Snape's standards in the Potion Master's beloved subject. To make matters worse it is HIS fault that POTTER got into Advanced Potions to inflict pain on Snape. And with Lucius in Azkaban, Daddy is no longer looking over Snape's shoulder to make sure Draco gets favored status. Snape and Harry go their obligatory round in the first class of Advanced Potions, but then to Harry's amazement Draco and Snape proceed to engage in a snarking match (probably mild by Snape/Harry standards, but still). This situation so fascinates Harry that he makes overtures to the only people in class who might be able to explain it, some Slytherins he has heretofore ignored (perhaps Zabini and/or Nott). This is the needed opening to introduce a "good" Slytherin and eventually integrate them into the DA. Lupinlore From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 18 13:38:08 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:38:08 -0000 Subject: Lucius' Motivation ( wasRe: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126286 > > SSSusan wrote: Even if Lucius wasn't necessarily trying to bring > > Voldy back via the diary scheme [I have my doubts that that was > > his goal], I do still believe he knew this diary was Tom's *and* > > Voldemort's and that they are one and the same. > > > Katie wrote: > To Susan- If not to bring LV back, what else would Malfoy's plan > have been? Hannah now: Oooo... a Lucius Malfoy's motivation question! I love these! We had a really interesting discussion on this a few months back, let's see if I can remember what we came up with... My contention has always been that Lucius Malfoy's intention *wasn't* to bring LV back. Because I believe that LM acts only to further his own interests, and I don't think that playing second fiddle and grovelling around to LV was really that beneficial for him. After all, he was quick enough to denounce LV when it looked like that was the losing side, and hadn't made any effort to reinstate in him in that time. If PP could track down LV in a few weeks, I'm sure that LM, with all of his resources, could have managed it in ten years. So what was his motivation? Several possibilities. 1) Malfoy needed to discredit Arthur Weasley. It's mentioned several times in CoS that the Muggle Protection Act is going to affect Malfoy's interests; the very motivating factor that I believe LM will act on. Thus he gave Ginny the diary, and sat back to wait for her to be caught. This theory is supported by the timing (why did he choose that particular year to pass out the diary?), and by DD, who seems to lean towards this theory himself when he confronts Lucius at the end. 2) Lucius wished to get rid of DD from Hogwarts so that he could take over there himself through a puppet Headmaster, likely Snape. Also, removal of DD from Hogwarts would weaken the authority of the biggest 'champion of mudbloods and muggles.' The diary created an extreme enough situation for him to get DD removed (and even then he had to resort to threats and bribery). This is supported by his actions in CoS, and by Draco's toadying comments in Potions. 3) Lucius hoped to 'rid the school of mudbloods' through the diary scheme, but had no intention of bringing back LV. I don't think Lucius even necessarily realised that it was going to be possible for TMR to leave the diary and take on a life of his own. 4) Lucius wanted specifically to get rid of Harry, and thought that the basilisk and diary!Tom would be able to do this. Harry represents a symbol of hope for those who support DD's ideals, and are thus opposed to Lucius. Enough reason for LM to want him dead. Those are a few for starters. Discuss at will! Hannah From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Fri Mar 18 14:09:43 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:09:43 -0000 Subject: A Revolt among the DE's? (Was Re: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126287 "Geoff Bannister" bringing up the fact that Bellatrix only learned in OOTP(OOTP "Beyond the Veil" pp.691-692 UK edition)that LV was not a pure-blood but a half-blood and was furious at Harry brings up an interesting issue: will the pure-blood fanatics among the ranks of the DE's revolt against LV or at least have divided loyalties? In particular, Lucius Malfoy always seems to looking out for himself and might he try to exploit dissent to take over? Richard Jones From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Mar 18 15:09:47 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:09:47 -0000 Subject: Leaning on the Dursleys was Hogwarts Teachers - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126288 Pippin: The point of the letter campaign was for Harry to get his Hogwarts letter, and at that, it failed. Interfering with the Dursleys does not have predictable results. Lupinlore: > Which in no way means it should not have been tried. Sorry, but I can't buy the "it was too risky" defense. Ignoring child abuse is NEVER justified.< Pippin: Consider what the outcome of the letter campaign was. Not only did Harry not get his letter, he ended up on an island out at sea on a stormy night in a hut with gaps in its walls, no fuel, provisions consisting of one bag of chips and a banana, and a blanket too thin to keep him warm. If Hagrid hadn't arrived and the storm had lasted through morning, who knows if any of them would have survived, especially if Vernon decided to try to get back to land during the storm when the food ran out. I wouldn't put it past him. Vernon doesn't strike me as terribly stable. I wonder if Petunia's insistence on keeping everything as normal as possible isn't "magical" thinking -- maybe she thinks as long as everything seems normal, Vernon will be normal too. As it was, Hagrid's arrival resulted in an unplanned illegal use of magic against a Muggle. In fact, many of the wizard/Muggle interactions we've seen have ended up that way...the Statute of Secrecy bids fair to be the Potterverse equivalent of the Prime Directive. Willing suspension of disbelief is required in order to suppose that violation is the exception rather than the rule. Be that as it may, it's clear that even a wizard as trustworthy and generally Muggle-friendly as Hagrid can't be trusted to keep his wand in his pocket (or his umbrella). The idea that Dumbledore could have someone lean on the Dursleys for long enough to change their engrained behavior without getting caught isn't credible to me. Vernon has an abusive personality and threatening him once or twice isn't going to change it. I'd think it was highly unrealistic and sloppy writing on JKR's part if it did. Lupinlore: > But, most of all, I think we need a LOT better discussion of these issues on JKR's part.< Pippin: Nothing would justify bombarding a child with radiation and feeding him poison till he was constantly nauseous and his hair fell out --unless you were trying to stop a cancer from coming back. I think we just need to be convinced that Voldemort returned is as lethal as Dumbledore says he is. If Trelawney's second prophecy is to come true, there shouldn't be a problem. Pippin From cat_kind at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 15:45:59 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:45:59 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA, new Potions teacher? (was Re: It's Libatius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126290 Potioncat: > To answer your question: > I don't know. But it seems, from McGonagall's conversation in > Career Advice, Harry is doing better than we might think. For that > matter, I believe Snape expects Neville to pass. But I don't believe > Neville thinks that Snape thinks Neville will pass. catkind: Maybe McG knows about Snape's attitude to Harry, just as she knows about Umbridge's lunacy, and is taking that into account in the careers interview, possibly even overcompensating in this case. She also says Harry will have to work to bring up his Potions grade. Does he? I'm not convinced. > Potioncat: > He may not need to be nearly as good as Hermione to get an O. There > just isn't anything higher to give her. He just has to get a > certain percent correct to get an "O"? or an "E" and how he > compares to her isn't important. We've seen Harry compare himself to > Ron in Potions. But we don't know how Ron did either. Hermione is > the only one who seems to consistently get her potions to turn out > properly, but I don't think she's the only one who passes. catkind: True, Hermione is obviously exceptional. But if Harry is to get an "O" he must be nearer her standard than the standard of the average student. My impression is that he is around average without Snape's interference. I doubt the whole class is going to get "O"s, even if they do better than in other subjects. What I'm trying to say is, if Harry is to get an "O" in Potions, he needs to be better than the majority of other students at it, and he needs to be better at Potions than at most of his other subjects. I just don't see either of these being true, however much the position may be skewed by Snape's oddities. Matter of opinion, naturally. > > > SSSusan wrote in 126246: > > But what about the possibility of Snape's announcing on the first > day > of NEWT-level Potions that the class includes... ahem [accompanied > by > significant sneer in Potter's direction] *some* students who would > never have been included if the choice had been up to him... but > that > the graders of the O.W.L. examinations unfortunately have lesser > standards which, equally unfortunately, he must accept. > > Potioncat: > I would almost predict this will happen in HBP!!!! LOL! catkind: A very convincing scenario :-D But at that point if not before, the students will all know about Snape's marking. They'll be sitting in the NEWT class saying, well I got a Troll, but it's Snape so that's really an E, no problem. > Potioncat: > > I have a question for those in the know about the tests that > correspond to OWLs in the RW. Would you expect to fail any? catkind: In GCSEs there are grades (A* and) A-G, all of which are technically passes. To actually fail is possible but rare, and I wouldn't expect it to happen to anyone at a nice boarding school like Hogwarts. It would be spotted beforehand and the student withdrawn from the exam. However, for practical purposes only A-C grades count, and these were supposed to be equivalent to a pass in the old "O-Level" (Ordinary Level!) system that GCSEs replaced. Plenty of people fail in the sense of not getting A-C's. My impression is that the GCSE grades A,B and C correspond more or less to the OWL grades O,E and A. (Hope I got that right, it's a while since I had any direct connection with English schools.) As to the Potions/Snape question, guess we'll just have to wait and see. I do like Lupinlore's idea in Msg 126285. catkind From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 16:22:19 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:22:19 -0000 Subject: Leaning on the Dursleys was Hogwarts Teachers - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126291 Lupinlore: But, most of all, I think we need a LOT better discussion of these issues on JKR's part.< Pippin: Nothing would justify bombarding a child with radiation and feeding him poison till he was constantly nauseous and his hair fell out --unless you were trying to stop a cancer from coming back. I think we just need to be convinced that Voldemort returned is as lethal as Dumbledore says he is. If Trelawney's second prophecy is to come true, there shouldn't be a problem. Alla: I don't need to be convinced that returned Voldemort is lethal. I mean, stronger depiction of him as Big Evil wouldn't hurt, IMO, but I get that what is JKR trying to do with Voldie. I'll suspend my desire to laugh sometimes and accept that he is to be feared. :) Personally I need to be convinced that Dumbledore was SURE that Voldemort is coming back one day - MAYBE is not good enough for me, I am afraid. I also need to be convinced that Harry could not be touched by DE on Privet Drive and I am not entirely convinced on that matter either. I definitely need to be convinced that Dumbledore's interference with Dursleys would have been lethal for Harry and for Harry only. I most certainly would not have think of Dumbledore as less moral person if he would interfere. So, yes, I would like much better discussion of those issues. I certainly hope that Dumbledore and Harry will have MANY talks in HBP, not only at the end of the book. JMO, Alla. From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 16:44:38 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:44:38 -0000 Subject: Leaning on the Dursleys was Hogwarts Teachers - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126292 Pippin said: < I think we just need to be convinced that Voldemort > returned is as lethal as Dumbledore says he is. > Lupinlore replied: That would help, but I have to agree with Alla that quite a bit more is needed. Like her, I think Dumbledore and Harry need to talk about a LOT of things. It is true that it would be easier to take Dumbledore's fears seriously if Voldy weren't such a cartoon. But even if he were pictured as believably as a gangster in a Martin Scorsese movie, that would not resolve the issues. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 17:00:34 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:00:34 -0000 Subject: Leaning on the Dursleys was Hogwarts Teachers - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126293 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > > I definitely need to be convinced that Dumbledore's interference with > Dursleys would have been lethal for Harry and for Harry only. > I most certainly would not have think of Dumbledore as less moral > person if he would interfere. > Yes, that is the great big brass ring, isn't it? Actually, though, for me it isn't necessary to actually prove this point, which is probably unprovable. It would be enough to be convinced that DUMBLEDORE was convinced of this, which would require a good explanation as to why (not just "Voldemort might come back some day," but "these specific DEs were prowling around with wands plotting to kill you and I could not have stopped them for these good reasons"). Also, it would be helpful to have puppetmaster!Dumbledore finally put to rest. I'm afraid JKR didn't inspire a great deal of confidence with that speech in OOTP, however. In fact it left me with a feeling of icy dislike and distrust for the man. Every sympathetic moment like his tear and his signs of exhaustion is undercut by an unsympathetic one, such as cutting Harry off when he tried to protest about Petunia or his constant references to some kind of plan. > > So, yes, I would like much better discussion of those issues. > > I certainly hope that Dumbledore and Harry will have MANY talks in > HBP, not only at the end of the book. > Oh yes. DD and Harry have a great deal to discuss, starting with Harry's parents and proceeding through the Dursleys and Sirius to one obnoxious Potions master. Lupinlore From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 18 17:35:37 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:35:37 -0000 Subject: What would Bella think or do? (was: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126294 SSSusan said previously: > > The bigger question is probably whether Lucius knows TR is > > a "mudblood." [Which I should now correct to *half-blood*!] Angie again: > Didnt' Harry tell Bella that in OOP? Or was it Umbridge? He told > somebody. Surely word will get around. SSSusan: It was Bella, and he told her in the Ministry building. The question is whether she *believed* Harry and, even if she did, whether she would tell anyone else. She clearly seemed upset by the comment, and I'm not sure how she would react in the long run.... Anybody got any guesses on that? Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 18 18:03:59 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:03:59 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126295 Hickengruendler: > > But here you assume, that Dumbledore knew when exactly Voldemort > > would return. But Dumbledore didn't know.... Lupinlore: > Actually, no, I don't assume that. I just think his reasoning of > letting Harry suffer is morally unjustified. It amounts to stopping > his ears, closing his eyes, and constantly muttering "Voldemort > might be coming," to himself to drown out the sound of a child > crying in a closet.... Hickengruendler: > > I do agree with you that Dumbledore should have, if not > > threatened the Dursleys, than at least *reminded* them, that he > > has an eye on Harry and expects that they treat him at least > > civilly. Lupinlore: > Without an answer to this, at best DD looks mealy mouthed in OOTP. > At worst he comes off as manipulative and cold-hearted. SSSusan: This is where this particular discussion topic always seems to come to an end, Lupinlore. You are firm in your view that it is NEVER alright to turn a blind eye to abuse. But I have never seen a response which really addresses the dilemma many of us think DD faced: that if he threatened the Dursleys, they could just wash their hands of Harry, say, "Fine! We don't want the brat anyway." At which point they could turn him out, send him to an orphanage, call in the Muggle authorities, or what have you. I don't see it as so black and white as *either* DD is turning a blind eye to abuse *or* DD is keeping the Dursleys in line with threats. To me it's a fine line DD was walking, and he knew it. DD NEEDED the blood protection for Harry if he assumed that Voldy would, indeed, attempt to rise again. Who knew when that would be?? And it could potentially be a ONE-SHOT deal: Voldy's back, he attacks, Harry's gone. Boom -- end of chance to eliminate Voldy! There's no room for DD to say, "Oh, well, sorry about that, folks. I thought we'd have a little advance notice that Voldy was back and I could move Harry to safety then." No, the only place the blood protection was available was with the Dursleys, and so DD (and Harry) needed them. Hence, if DD pushed them too hard, he risked their balking & kicking Harry out. Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 19:21:12 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:21:12 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126296 Hickengruendler: But here you assume, that Dumbledore knew when exactly Voldemort would return. But Dumbledore didn't know.... Lupinlore: Actually, no, I don't assume that. I just think his reasoning of letting Harry suffer is morally unjustified. It amounts to stopping his ears, closing his eyes, and constantly muttering "Voldemort might be coming," to himself to drown out the sound of a child crying in a closet.... Hickengruendler: I do agree with you that Dumbledore should have, if not threatened the Dursleys, than at least *reminded* them, that he has an eye on Harry and expects that they treat him at least civilly. Lupinlore: Without an answer to this, at best DD looks mealy mouthed in OOTP. At worst he comes off as manipulative and cold-hearted. SSSusan: This is where this particular discussion topic always seems to come to an end, Lupinlore. You are firm in your view that it is NEVER alright to turn a blind eye to abuse. But I have never seen a response which really addresses the dilemma many of us think DD faced: that if he threatened the Dursleys, they could just wash their hands of Harry, say, "Fine! We don't want the brat anyway." At which point they could turn him out, send him to an orphanage, call in the Muggle authorities, or what have you. Alla: But are you SURE that Dumbledore indeed faced that dilemma? Because from the books I have not gotten the clear impression that he indeed did that. That is exactly what i meant under "better explanation of those issues". I am not convinced that Dursleys would have thrown Harry out, because if JKR would have showed that to me, I'd have less problems with Dumbledore than I have now. So far the examples been given tell me the contrary - that when Howler came, Petunia insists that Harry stays. When Order wants, they have no problem threatening Dursleys. I mean, sure posters came up with many convincing explanations of why that happened, but in the text I don't see much indication that Dursleys would have thrown Harry out. Just my opinion, Alla From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 19:43:43 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:43:43 -0000 Subject: What would Bella think or do? (was: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126297 --- > SSSusan said previously: > > > The bigger question is probably whether Lucius knows TR is > > > a "mudblood." [Which I should now correct to *half-blood*!] > > Angie again: > > Didnt' Harry tell Bella that in OOP? Or was it Umbridge? He told > > somebody. Surely word will get around. > > > SSSusan: > It was Bella, and he told her in the Ministry building. The question > is whether she *believed* Harry and, even if she did, whether she > would tell anyone else. She clearly seemed upset by the comment, and > I'm not sure how she would react in the long run.... > > Anybody got any guesses on that? > >Angie again: I'm sure she doesn't consider Harry a credible person to make such an accusation, but I'll bet it will nag at her. Since she seems to be second-in-command, what she thinks is probably important to the other DE, although admittedly not as important as what VM thinks. But would she even share the info with anyone? I'd be afraid to, in her shoes. I have a hard time picturing a DE saying to Voldemort, "So, Voldy. Dude -- heard you were a half-blood!" First, they're not likely to doubt him; second, I'd think they'd be too fearful. But what if they came by the knowledge independently? I don't know what it would take to convince them, but if they were convinced, I wonder what they would do, given that there is only one way to leave Voldemort's service (except in Snape's case, apparently)? I'd be extremely PO'd and betrayed if it was me. It would be lovely to think that someone would betray Voldemort and help the Order. But I don't hold my breath, even though DD thinks that Pettigrew could be useful, since he owes Harry a debt of gratitude. If Pettigrew was convinced VM was on his way down, he'd probably try to turn (again), but I don't think he really cares about whether anyone is less than pure-blood. From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 18 19:44:14 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:44:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Ginny Weasley Message-ID: <20050318194414.99938.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126298 The root chakra is bright orange red, just like Ginnys hair. This chakra is connected to the sacral plexus and the gonads. It is obviously linked to the sexual force, and in my post on Harry in the Chamber of Secrets I have explained that the kundalini force resides in the sacral plexus. In addition the sacral plexus is the mirror of the subconscious mind. Quite a responsibility for a little girl! This area is traditionally regarded as feminine, which is why the youngest Weasley is a girl. The progress of the process of liberation is reflected in the nervous system, the endocrine glands and the chakras. The soul force born from the Lily in the heart gradually enters the head, from where it travels down the right string of the sympathetic nerve. As it goes down we can imagine it perhaps like an electric current, causing the wire to glow and remain glowing behind it as it moves downward. The plexuses are linked to the sympathetic nervous system and we can imagine the glow gradually entering the plexuses one by one on the downward course of the soul-force. This force causes great changes in the nervous system, which alter the person completely. His perception of the world is totally renewed and his body is made ready for the great alchemical changes leading to liberation. In addition to the plexuses being changed, the rotation of the chakras is slowed down as the soul-force goes down on its journey through the pipes of Hogwarts. The chakras suck in energy from the world around us. The purpose of liberation is to stop the body taking in the energy from this fallen universe and to start absorbing the energy of the Sixth Cosmic Plane, the Kingdom of God. This will be obvious to those whove read the previous posts in this series. The effect of slowing down the chakras is gradually to release the apprentice alchemist from the shackles with which he is chained to this world. This process takes many years. Harry manages to liberate himself in seven years; but these are definitely not years made of twelve months but stages in the process. When the soul-force reaches the sacral plexus it bends the sexual force upwards so that the apprentice alchemist is no longer the slave of his sexual desires. Instead the energy becomes creative energy at the alchemists disposal. We know that Harry comes down to rescue Ginny from the basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets. There he meets the unconscious Ginny and Tom Riddle who has been stored as a memory in the diary. Tom Riddles diary is a reference to the place of the sacral plexus as the mirror of the subconscious mind. The whole of a persons past, and all his past incarnations, are stored there and when Harry saw the scenes Tom Riddles diary showed him, he was looking into the subconscious mind with its complete memory of all past events. Tom Riddle is the subconscious force that links us to our microcosmic past. You may remember me telling you that when a foetus is adopted by a microcosm, the microcosmic self (Voldemort) pours its essence into the spinal cord. The whole past of the microcosm is poured into the sacral plexus in this way, and this plexus radiates our subconscious urges up along the spinal cord into the brain. The fact that Ginny is unconscious symbolises the complete lack of rotation in the chakra and the coming to stillness of the sexual force. Harry defeats the basilisk symbolising the serpent of the kundalini. As I have stated often before, this force contains our entire karma, good and bad. At this stage the apprentice alchemist is freed from his karma, which the Bible calls the forgiveness of sins. You can imagine, I hope, that this is an extremely advanced stage in the process of liberation. This is something that incessantly fills me with wonder: the supreme process of human fulfilment; the most Holy Alchemical process of Transfiguration from man to God is shown in Harry Potter. It is totally breathtaking in its majesty. Harry stabs the diary and thus kills Tom Riddle. In other words he is liberated from the domination of the subconscious mind and hence from the microcosmic self through the subconscious. Normally just before this happens the apprentice encounters the three temptations that are symbolically described as the temptations Jesus has in the desert. However Jo is showing us a cameo of the whole Path which is described in much greater detail in the seven volumes. Ginny wakes up, symbolising the chakra starting its rotation again, this time rotating in the opposite direction. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From allura9703 at yahoo.ca Fri Mar 18 05:26:17 2005 From: allura9703 at yahoo.ca (allura9703) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:26:17 -0000 Subject: The Future of SPEW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126299 Lupinlore wrote: > It seems that most people feel that SPEW represents Hermione going > overboard, and will provide her at least some comeuppance with > regard to always thinking her opinions are right and not realizing > that other people/creatures see the world differently. > > > I suspect that if Hermione gets a comeuppance with SPEW (and I'm > not totally sure she will), it will be a purely tactical humiliation > having to do with her methods like leaving clothes lying around > randomly. I doubt she is going to face any kind of re-evaluation > of her values or her overall strategy of working to free the elves. > In other words, I very, very much expect that her opinions will be > vindicated. I really can't imagine that Hermione is ever going to > face some kind of lesson in cultural relativism in which she is > expected to accept the house-elf value system or come to think > that applying standards from the Muggle World is a bad policy. I don't think that SPEW is dead, but I do think that Hermione will have to re-adjust her thinking about SPEW. The problem is that Hermione was brought up in the Muggle world where people do not want to be enslaved. She's forgetting, or ignoring that House Elves are not humans. I don't think that they view themselves as slaves but that it is their duty to serve their master to the best of their abilities. Look at Dobby. While he likes being free does not want too much freedom. In GoF, Dumbledore was prepared to pay him more with more time off but Dobby "beat him down" to a far lower wage and fewer days off and flat out tells Hermione that he does not want to too much. Also even though Dobby is free, he still feels the need to punish himself for disobeying a direct order from Umbridge, when he warns Harry that she knows about the DA and is coming to get them in OOTP. Had Dobby been treated better by the Malfoys, I'm not convinces that he would have even wanted freedom. Hermione has not even bothered to ask any of the House Elves if they want freedom, she just assumes that they do. I don't like the fact that she is trying to trick them into becoming free by hiding the hats she knits. It's a very underhanded way to achieve your goal and Ron was right to unhide the clothes because it gives them a choice. It's very telling that none of the Hogwarts House Elves will clean Gryffindor Tower anymore because of what she is doing. Hermione is blinded by what she thinks is right. And she will eventually learn that the way she is handling SPEW is wrong (and I do think its wrong to try to trick someone into something that they might not want). SPEW is not dead; Hermione will learn that there are better ways to help someone attain freedom. Allura From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 18 20:01:30 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:01:30 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126300 SSSusan: > I have never seen a response which really addresses the dilemma > many of us think DD faced: that if he threatened the Dursleys, > they could just wash their hands of Harry, say, "Fine! We don't > want the brat anyway." At which point they could turn him out, > send him to an orphanage, call in the Muggle authorities, or what > have you. Alla: > But are you SURE that Dumbledore indeed faced that dilemma? > ... in the text I don't see much indication that Dursleys would > have thrown Harry out. SSSusan: For me it is the *possibility* that they would have that's enough. DD couldn't KNOW one way or the other. Could he take the risk that if he pushed too hard, they wouldn't do so? The Dursleys were under no obligation to keep Harry. You mention that we get no indication they would have thrown him out. I happen to believe that DD "sweetened the deal" by offering some sort of protection to the Dursleys in exchange for their taking Harry in, hoping they'd be more willing to do so, but we don't know that yet either. I think this was an extra step that DD likely took to help ensure the Dursleys would keep Harry, but it would be no guarantee of their doing so. Again, while there is no indication that the Dursleys would for certain bail out if DD pushed too hard or threatened them, isn't it a distinct possibility? And a possibility that made it risky for DD to press them hard? Siriusly Snapey Susan From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Fri Mar 18 07:13:56 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:13:56 -0000 Subject: As the 7th month dies... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126301 Steve wrote: > Well, my first thought is to make a distinction between... > > 'WHEN the seventh month dies...' > > and > > 'AS the seventh month dies...' > > Just my interpretation but 'WHEN' implies an event, a precise > point in time; whereas 'AS' implies a process, that is a general > span of time. John: Well, yes, Neville and Harry were, as far as I know, born a few days apart; the prophecy could have applied to either. Steve again: > Also, as I'm sure you know, there has been an argument that > SEPTember was originally the seventh month ('sept' being the prefix > for 7). > I don't think JKR would enage in such an obscure reference. I think > she says seven and means July. John again: Yes, I'd feel a bit cheated, wouldn't you? Steve again: > All that said, I think there is tremendous room for Dumbledore to > have misinterpreted the Prophecy. Here is a classic example of a > misinterpretation. Suppose, Voldemort kills Harry, and in a burst > of fury and daring, Neville kills Voldemort to avenge Harry. Perhaps, > Harry dying opens a vulnerability in Voldemort that allows Neville > to truly kill him. That seems well within the scope of the Prophecy. John, again: Agreed. I have to say, I *did* lose a little respect for DD, having read OOTP. How could he have put such faith, based all his scheming plans around, such a stupid piece of crap like the prophecy. Notorious, the wretched things are; their meaning almost always becomes clear only after the event. This one seems to be particularly open-ended. That's why I'd like to see DD survive the series and be left to chew over his having interpreted the prophecy incorrectly. A lesson, perhaps, of the futility of trying to engineer future events? John. From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 07:25:30 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:25:30 -0000 Subject: Robe Malfunction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126302 I realize I'm a little slow here, but I just got back. On a practical note, I wore a longish skirt today with stockings and found things felt like they were getting a little twisted. :( I can only imagine what a long robe with jeans would feel like. I'm sure it wouldn't take long for most of us to abandon the jeans. I also know a young man who recently purchased a kilt and found it surprisingly comfortable. Especially in warmish weather. "bbkkyy55" From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Fri Mar 18 07:44:18 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:44:18 -0000 Subject: The Wizarding World and Politics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126303 Not sure if this has been discussed before, but what do fellow listees make of the political system in the Wizarding World. Fudge is an "elected" representative of the population, but we don't know to what extent this was a democratic process. How many ministerial candidates were there? Is voting compulsory? What about political parties in the Wizarding World? There appears to be no discernable separation of powers OR enshrined constitution OR independent, er... reputable, news medium. Pertaining to elections, there are at least 5-6 years between drinks. Just how accountable is the holder of office?? I've speculated as to the role played by international law in the wizarding world. Any thoughts? John. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 20:21:22 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:21:22 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126304 Susan: Again, while there is no indication that the Dursleys would for certain bail out if DD pushed too hard or threatened them, isn't it a distinct possibility? And a possibility that made it risky for DD to press them hard? Alla: I am just trying to figure out where our views diverge. I don't see it as distinct possibility at all, because I see no hints in the text pointing to that, but as I said in the previous post I definitely see the hints to the contrary - namely Petunia being intimidated and BOTH Petunia and Vernon being VERY intimidated by the Order. I think the threat at the end is what annoys me the most - we clearly see ( in my opinion only) that Dursleys can say nothing to refute Order members' threats and I keep wondering why exactly it could not have been done earlier. I want to SEE at least clues that if Dumbledore interfered, disaster would have happened. JKR does not show me anything close, that is why I don't see it as distinct posibility at all. I think that if Dumbledore would NOT have threatened with Howler and nothing happened at the end, I would feel much better. Something to the effect - OK, Dumbledore is really and truly helpless, because even in the face of such dire threat, he could not have interfere. But now I KNOW that he can interfere and perfectly capable of doing that and I am left wondering why it was not done years earlier? Just my opinion, Alla From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 20:24:20 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:24:20 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > I don't see it as so black and white as *either* DD is turning a > blind eye to abuse *or* DD is keeping the Dursleys in line with > threats. To me it's a fine line DD was walking, and he knew it. > Well, if I was convinced that DD indeed experienced such a dilemma, I would be inclined to agree. That is if we could be definitively shown that he REALLY believed Harry would die if he intervened -- and I'm afraid that "he might die someday because Voldemort might return" isn't nearly good enough, I mean "he WOULD die because THIS group would do THESE things that I could not prevent for THESE reasons," -- then I would be inclined to be rather sympathetic to Albus' situation. However, I am not at all convinced that Albus experienced such a dilemma. Absent more evidence about his thoughts and actions during those ten years, I think it is perfectly plausible to think he approached this as a way to keep his essential weapon locked up safely -- and if it gets banged up a little in the process, well that's not anything to worry about. In other words, in the great battle between what's good and what's right, Albus just closed his eyes, stuck gum in his ears, and took the easy way out. Also, like Alla, I'm not all that convinced that the Dursleys would have kicked Harry out. They were threatened twice in OOTP and did no such thing. But, once again, all of that is to say we need a much more complete (and hopefully careful and well-thought out) discussion of these issues. If it turns out that Albus underwent a great deal of tension and turmoil over this situation, and that he had perfectly good evidence that Harry was in immediate danger that he could not have shielded him from even at Hogwarts, then he's off the hook. But I have to admit, it ain't looking good for him at the moment. Lupinlore From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Fri Mar 18 12:21:40 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:21:40 -0000 Subject: Robe Malfunction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126306 > Angie wrote: > > OK, the subject is a little tongue-in-cheek but this really > > bugs me -- don't wizards/witches wear clothes under their > > robes? > > Shaun wrote (#126212): > By coincidence, during my recent readthrough of the books I > gathered all the information I could find on this. There's a > rather mixed bag of information there. > My guess is that since JKR is Scottish, she'd be (a) totally accustomed to large, hairy gentlemen (and those who wish to emulate them) strolling through snowstorms wearing nothing under their kilts, and (b) accustomed also to all the jokes that this strange ethnic habit gives rise to. No, I didn't mean that, I meant: all the jokes that it generates. Er ... maybe I didn't mean that either. And kilts are shorter than wizard robes - on the knee, or as far down as the top of knee-length socks. So a wiz in a robe would be better off than a Scottish RSM in a kilt. For those who know about cricket, when Dr Ali Bacher was still a player here in South Africa - late 60s, early 70s - he needed an extra bowler and got Lee Irvine to oblige, which meant that Ali had to keep wicket. Down he went behind the stumps, and the crowd erupted in evil delight: he'd strapped his pads too tight, so his flannels burst, and he was wearing nothing underneath, as was all too evident! (Apologies to the rest of you!) Deborah From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 20:51:09 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:51:09 -0000 Subject: The Wizarding World and Politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126307 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "someoneofsomeplace" wrote: > > > Not sure if this has been discussed before, but what do fellow > listees make of the political system in the Wizarding World. > > Fudge is an "elected" representative of the population, but we don't > know to what extent this was a democratic process. How many > ministerial candidates were there? Is voting compulsory? What about > political parties in the Wizarding World? > > There appears to be no discernable separation of powers OR enshrined > constitution OR independent, er... reputable, news medium. > Pertaining to elections, there are at least 5-6 years between > drinks. Just how accountable is the holder of office?? > > I've speculated as to the role played by international law in the > wizarding world. Any thoughts? > > John. a_svirn: I guess we'll learn more about these issues in HBP, since there will be a new minister. I believe that the minister and probably the heads of the most important departments (like Law Enforcement for instance) are appointed by the Wizengamot. Also there is a core of lower and middle-level ministry functionaries who are offered positions of various degrees of importance according to their NEWT results and stay in their offices regardless of the current political situation. Rather like British civil servants. The most intriguing question though is how the Wizengamot being formed. a_svirn From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 21:00:41 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:00:41 -0000 Subject: The Wizarding World and Politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126308 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: a_svirn: > > I guess we'll learn more about these issues in HBP, since there will > be a new minister. I believe that the minister and probably the > heads of the most important departments (like Law Enforcement for > instance) are appointed by the Wizengamot. Also there is a core of > lower and middle-level ministry functionaries who are offered > positions of various degrees of importance according to their NEWT > results and stay in their offices regardless of the current > political situation. Rather like British civil servants. The most > intriguing question though is how the Wizengamot being formed. > Good points. We know that Albus was asked to leave the Wizengamot, apparently by the members of the body. That seems to indicate that the Wizengamot is a self-perpetuating council. In that case, given teh rest of the theory outlined above, Wizarding Britain would essentially be a classic oligarchy. Lupinlore From ihearthermione at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 17:57:20 2005 From: ihearthermione at gmail.com (Ziggie Valencourt) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:57:20 -0500 Subject: DD's dilemma (RE: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: <95252865BCB8864680EDA1BE63124DC90EE8E831@exchfwa05.aww.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126309 Lupinlore: > Actually, no, I don't assume that. I just think his reasoning of letting > Harry suffer is morally unjustified. It amounts to stopping his ears, > closing his eyes, and constantly muttering "Voldemort might be coming," > to himself to drown out the sound of a child crying in a closet -- if he > was even bothering to pay attention to the consequences of his decision > at all. Although I can readily see how this might be one of the "old > man's mistakes" he alludes to. Nevertheless, in particular with regard > to the question of why he did not intervene to protect Harry from some of > the Dursleys' abuse, I think his explanation in OOTP begs far too many > questions. Ziggie: It's easy with the knowledge we have 15 years after the fact to look back and criticize Dumbledore's mistakes. No one know what happened to LV, no one knew that all the DE's were fleeing for their lives, no one knew if and when LV would even come back. Granted, after a few years then **maybe** Harry could have been moved, but why move him away from the only family he had? It would have been more abusive to place Harry with strangers than to take him away from his family at the age of 5 or 6, no matter how nasty they may seem. Family is family, and deep down I think Harry was happy to have someone, even if they were awful. Lupinlore: > And this is one of the nubs of the whole rather heated debate over DD and > the Dursleys. Without an answer to this, at best DD looks mealy mouthed > in OOTP. At worst he comes off as manipulative and cold-hearted -- i.e. > regarding Harry as an asset who has to be kept locked in a closet at all > costs vs. seeing him as a human being with real needs. Ziggie: Do we know that he ignored Harry for 10 years? It sounds from the Howler that Petunia received that Dumbledore had been in regular contact. Maybe he had reminded them or suggested they move Harry, and maybe they had threatened to throw Harry out. We have a 10 year void that we don't have any canon to support one way or the other... Ziggs...who thinks that Dumbledore deserves a break for not being able to be perfect. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 21:06:36 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:06:36 -0000 Subject: What would Bella think- to be or not to be In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126310 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: >Angie again (gelite67?): > > I'm sure she doesn't consider Harry a credible person to make such > an accusation, but I'll bet it will nag at her. ... > > I have a hard time picturing a DE saying to Voldemort, "So, Voldy. > Dude -- heard you were a half-blood!" First, they're not likely to > doubt him; second, I'd think they'd be too fearful. > > But what if they came by the knowledge independently? I don't know > what it would take to convince them, but if they were convinced, I > wonder what they would do, given that there is only one way to leave > Voldemort's service (except in Snape's case, apparently)? > > I'd be extremely PO'd and betrayed if it was me. ...edited.. > > (gelite67?) bboyminn: One small problem, one doesn't necessarily have to be a pureblood to promote the Pureblood idea. Witness Adolf Hitler, who was't even German, he was Austrian, not only that, his ancestry didn't fit the /pureblood/ Arian ideal, and there are some hints that he may have even had a trace of Jewish blood in him. Yet, he was able to very effectively promote the Pureblood Arian ideal. Voldemort could take the approach of saying things like... Look what happened to me, I've been defiled, the pure and noble blood of Salazar Slytherin himself has been corrupted and poisoned by the blood of my father, a muggle and a fool. We can not allow this atrocity to happen again. We must protect the blood of our children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren. To avenge the fouling of my noble blood I destroy the muggle family from which it came. I put an end to the filthy House of Riddle forever. We must protect our children (said in a high shrill Simpson-esque voice, 'Won't somebody think of the children'), we must destroy the muggles who would corrupt and destroy us. We must protect our future generations from suffering the humiliation and corruption that I, in whose viens flows the blood of Salazar Slythrin, have suffer. In this /vein/ Voldemort paints himself as the poor, to be pitied, helpless victim of a horrible crime, a crime, that in his deep magnanimous benevolence, he wants to protect others from. I've seen people use the same tack to decry and demonize their mixed racial blood or mixed religious blood. Also, it's standard fair for evil overlords, and fanatic tyrannical dictators. Give the people a point of pride and something that makes them /special/, better than everybody else. Tie that rallying point to a respected historical figure who had vaguely similar beliefs. Pervert and distort those beliefs to your own ends. Then, most important of all, give your followers a good enemy, someone to hate, someone to blame all their ills on. It's perfect, even if you are the lowest poorest scum of the earth, you can still feel you are better than muggles, and of course, it's not your fault you are the lowest, poorest scum of the earth, that blame falls firmly on muggles. So, while not initially logical, it is reasonable for someone like Voldemort to promote an ideal to which he does not conform, and to get people to rally behind him in spite of that fact. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 21:11:17 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:11:17 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (RE: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ziggie Valencourt" wrote: > Ziggie: > > Do we know that he ignored Harry for 10 years? It sounds from the Howler > that Petunia received that Dumbledore had been in regular contact. Maybe he > had reminded them or suggested they move Harry, and maybe they had > threatened to throw Harry out. We have a 10 year void that we don't have > any canon to support one way or the other... > I agree that we have a great gap in canon -- which is why we need more information. As far as DD and Petunia being in regular communication during the period, I'm afraid JKR has already ruled it out. She has said on her website that "Remember my last" referred to the letter Dumbledore had left in Harry's basket in 1981. This would mean that they have not had private contact (as opposed to official communications from Hogwarts) for almost fifteen years. Lupinlore From elvenlady0903 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 19:58:52 2005 From: elvenlady0903 at yahoo.com (Sandy) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:58:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would Bella / Malfoy / DEs think or do? (was: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050318195852.51847.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126312 Angie wrote: > But what if they came by the knowledge independently? I don't know > what it would take to convince them, but if they were convinced, I > wonder what they would do, given that there is only one way to leave > Voldemort's service (except in Snape's case, apparently)? Elvenlady: Correct me if I am wrong, I can't remember if it is a line in the movie or if it is from the book but in CoS when Malfoy is in DD's office, DD hands Malfoy the book and says something about being more careful with Tom's old school things. The diary says Tom Riddle. Malfoy must make the connection. Would he not do a big of checking into the past of Tom Riddle? If for anything else, to learn more about his master. Especially with the obsession of the whole pure-blood thing. Just a thought. Sandy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 18 21:15:34 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:15:34 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126313 Alla: > I think that if Dumbledore would NOT have threatened with Howler > and nothing happened at the end, I would feel much better. > Something to the effect - OK, Dumbledore is really and truly > helpless, because even in the face of such dire threat, he could > not have interfere. > > But now I KNOW that he can interfere and perfectly capable of > doing that and I am left wondering why it was not done years > earlier? SSSusan: Because now DD has the news and the proof that Voldemort *is* in fact back? And that gives him leverage he didn't have before? This plays into the protection I *believe* DD offered the Dursleys. Before Voldy returned, the Dursleys MIGHT have pooh-poohed the possibility that he could even do so. Thus, what would they care if they pitched out Harry and DD withdrew his protection? But now that it's clear Voldy IS back and that danger has come veeeerry close to their dear Dudley [even if it didn't come from Voldy himself], Petunia may well want to "cash in" on that protection, *but* she is reminded by DD's Howler that she can't unless she keeps Harry. No proof, of course; just my suspicions. Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 18 21:20:23 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:20:23 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126314 SSSusan: > > I don't see it as so black and white as *either* DD is turning a > > blind eye to abuse *or* DD is keeping the Dursleys in line with > > threats. To me it's a fine line DD was walking, and he knew > > it. Lupinlore: > Well, if I was convinced that DD indeed experienced such a > dilemma, I would be inclined to agree. That is if we could be > definitively shown that he REALLY believed Harry would die if he > intervened -- and I'm afraid that "he might die someday because > Voldemort might return" isn't nearly good enough, I mean "he WOULD > die because THIS group would do THESE things that I could not > prevent for THESE reasons," -- then I would be inclined to be > rather sympathetic to Albus' situation. SSSusan: But how could anyone ever KNOW those particulars? Isn't it always the risks, the possibilities, the odds which one has to deal with? If the potential negative consequences were minor, fine, be aggressive and take some chances. If the potential negative consequence is horrendous [i.e., loss of the WW's one potential Voldy-killer], then doesn't it behoove you to be conservative and extra-cautious? Siriusly Snapey Susan, really pushing the limit on posting today and so hoping her argument is complete. :-) From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 21:22:22 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:22:22 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126315 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > > SSSusan: > Because now DD has the news and the proof that Voldemort *is* in > fact back? And that gives him leverage he didn't have before? > > This plays into the protection I *believe* DD offered the Dursleys. > Before Voldy returned, the Dursleys MIGHT have pooh-poohed the > possibility that he could even do so. Thus, what would they care if > they pitched out Harry and DD withdrew his protection? But now that > it's clear Voldy IS back and that danger has come veeeerry close to > their dear Dudley [even if it didn't come from Voldy himself], > Petunia may well want to "cash in" on that protection, *but* she is > reminded by DD's Howler that she can't unless she keeps Harry. > > No proof, of course; just my suspicions. Well, the problem here Susan is that you put DD in an even worse moral position. Not only does he do nothing, he has potential specific leverage over the Dursleys and STILL does nothing. All these MIGHTS just aren't an acceptable excuse for turning a blind eye to child abuse. Sorry, but that scenario just sinks him further into a quagmire of ineptitude/cold hearted manipulation. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 21:34:46 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:34:46 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126316 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > SSSusan: > But how could anyone ever KNOW those particulars? Isn't it always > the risks, the possibilities, the odds which one has to deal with? I didn't say he had to KNOW them. I said he had to BELIEVE them, and that we needed to be shown that, along with his evidence for these beliefs. We just don't know enough. But the evidence ain't good for Albus. > If the potential negative consequences were minor, fine, be > aggressive and take some chances. If the potential negative > consequence is horrendous [i.e., loss of the WW's one potential > Voldy-killer], then doesn't it behoove you to be conservative and > extra-cautious? And turning a blind eye to child abuse is a minor consequence? I suppose if you (generic you, not you personally) ARE talking about Harry as a weapon rather than a human being, one could see the abuse as a minor consequence. From the evidence we have Albus might be thinking about Harry as a weapon. If that is the case, it is a good argument. It is also morally reprehensible and he deserves some severe consequences for that lapse. As I've said, it isn't enough to get Albus off the hook to show that he had reasons. To get him out from under the moral burden it needs to be shown that he paid attention to the consequences of his decision and cared about them and that he honestly BELIEVED that Harry WOULD have died -- not that he "might" have died "if" Voldemort returned -- if he intervened to stop the Dursleys child abuse. Lupinlore From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 21:41:21 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:41:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050318214121.71302.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126317 --- cubfanbudwoman wrote: > The Dursleys were under no obligation to keep Harry. You mention > that we get no indication they would have thrown him out. I happen > to believe that DD "sweetened the deal" by offering some sort of > protection to the Dursleys in exchange for their taking Harry in, > hoping they'd be more willing to do so, but we don't know that yet > either. I think this was an extra step that DD likely took to help > ensure the Dursleys would keep Harry, but it would be no guarantee > of their doing so. I agree, and will add that I think once the Dursleys got over their shock at finding a baby on the doorstep, they struck a hard bargain that ensured that no "freak" wizard or witch would his or her face around Privet Drive while Harry was growing up. Dumbledore agreed, and placed a squib in the neighbourhood instead. I really, really hope we're not going to go off on another fruitless round of squabbling over whether child abuse is a Very Bad Thing. We all agree on that. The question is whether what Harry had to put up with was child abuse or just really bad parenting. As I said before, I think that its clear that Harry was not frightened of the Dursleys pre-PS/SS and the way he demands his letters from Uncle Vernon doesn't indicate to me that he was cowering in terror from him. Harry is wary not to give them a reason to send him to his closet and he certainly doesn't like them but he was not an abused child. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 18 21:44:39 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:44:39 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: <20050318214121.71302.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > I really, really hope we're not going to go off on another fruitless > round of squabbling over whether child abuse is a Very Bad Thing. We > all agree on that. The question is whether what Harry had to put up > with was child abuse or just really bad parenting. > > As I said before, I think that its clear that Harry was not > frightened of the Dursleys pre-PS/SS and the way he demands his > letters from Uncle Vernon doesn't indicate to me that he was cowering > in terror from him. Harry is wary not to give them a reason to send > him to his closet and he certainly doesn't like them but he was not > an abused child. > Well, with respect, I think that is a totally indefensible position. Sorry, but being locked in a closet and denied food DOES constitute child abuse. Lupinlore > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 21:50:16 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:50:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050318215016.14030.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126319 --- lupinlore wrote: > -- if he intervened to stop the Dursleys child abuse. Just one teeny, weeny problem with your argument, Lupinlore: the Dursleys weren't child abusers. We've gone over this not too long ago and I really don't see why we need to go over the exact same ground again. You have your views, obviously strongly and might I just add almost obessively held, and other people have differing views on this. We will know more in the next two books about the arrangements that Dumbledore made with the Dursleys about keeping Harry, Harry's protection from both Lily and Dumbledore when he was a baby as well as other pre-series backstory. I respectfully suggest we wait until the end of the series when we know more details before we go at this whole issue again. Magda (who thought we had a three-a-day rule in force) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 21:54:06 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:54:06 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: <20050318214121.71302.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126320 Magda Grantwich wrote: > The question is whether what Harry had to put up > with was child abuse or just really bad parenting. > > As I said before, I think that its clear that Harry was not > frightened of the Dursleys pre-PS/SS and the way he demands his > letters from Uncle Vernon doesn't indicate to me that he was cowering > in terror from him. Harry is wary not to give them a reason to send > him to his closet and he certainly doesn't like them but he was not > an abused child. a_svirn: I guess it depends on your definition of abuse. Harry is certainly not physically or sexually abused, but he is neglected at best and maltreated at worst. a_svirn From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Fri Mar 18 21:55:19 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:55:19 -0000 Subject: Snape FILK Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126321 I've never written one of these things before, but thought of it on the train home from work (having injudiciously exhausted my reading matter). A couple of fudged rhymes, and some dodgy metre, but couldn't stop myself once it got into my head... To the tune of Ko-Ko's little list, from the Mikado. Snape: Since frequently it happens that a victim must be found, I've got a little list - I've got a little list, And scorn-deserving students, staff and idiots abound, I'm sure you get the gist - they're *all* upon the list. The imbecilic cretins fill my classes year on year, My contempt is not a front, it is whole-heartedly sincere, Longbottom can't boil water without making it go "bang!" He has the brains and subtlety of an orang-utan, My loathing of them runs so deep, I really can't resist, They're *all* upon the list - for they'll none of them be missed. Chorus: He's got 'em on the list - he's got 'em on the list, And they'll none of 'em be missed - they'll none of 'em be missed. Snape: There's Sirius and James, the dolt: so vain it nauseates The flippant humorists - they were upon the list, But Potter's swollen cranium much more infuriates, He heads my little list - he *never* would be missed. That damn trio's larks fill me with apoplectic rage, Capricious squirts: Our world's at an apocalyptic stage, That reckless bloody werewolf, lying calmly to my face, How he got my job I'll never know, it's a disgrace! I'm certain there are others... let me add them to the list, They should *all* be on the list - I'm sure they'll not be missed. Chorus: He's got 'em on the list - he's got 'em on the list, And I don't think they'll be missed - I'm sure they'll not be missed. Snape: Lockhart was a moron, I detested him with zeal, The witless egoist - I've got *him* on the list, I've taught all seven Weasleys (a disheartening ordeal), They'll none of them be missed ? they're all upon the list. Granger is unbearable, she sets my teeth on edge, I'd garrotte her if I could but I gave Dumbledore my pledge, That graveyard-full of former friends, including You-Know-Who, The task of filling in the blanks I'd rather leave to you... Incompetents, who *clearly* cannot with wit coexist, They're right there on the list - they're *all* upon the list. Chorus: You may put 'em on the list - you may put 'em on the list, For they'll none of 'em be missed - they'll none of 'em be missed. Sorry. I won't do it again. Dungrollin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 22:07:44 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:07:44 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: <20050318215016.14030.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126322 Magda: Just one teeny, weeny problem with your argument, Lupinlore: the Dursleys weren't child abusers. Alla: If one defines what they did as child abuse, then yes, they are. Magda: We will know more in the next two books about the arrangements that Dumbledore made with the Dursleys about keeping Harry, Harry's protection from both Lily and Dumbledore when he was a baby as well as other pre-series backstory. I respectfully suggest we wait until the end of the series when we know more details before we go at this whole issue again. Alla: I agree that backstory may and hopefully will give more explanation to Dursleys and Dumbledore behaviour , but whether we have the backstory or not, on its own Dursleys actions are horrible enough to me. With detailed writing, Dumbledore can be 100% redeemed in my eyes, I am not so sure about Dursleys. Magda (who thought we had a three-a-day rule in force) Alla, who is also pushing the limit today, but who thought that till March 21 the three a day is voluntary. Sorry if I am wrong. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Mar 18 22:19:57 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:19:57 -0000 Subject: Leaning on the Dursleys was Hogwarts Teachers - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Personally I need to be convinced that Dumbledore was SURE that Voldemort is coming back one day - MAYBE is not good enough for me, I am afraid.< Pippin: He says he was sure, he only didn't know when it would happen. Alla: > I also need to be convinced that Harry could not be touched by DE on Privet Drive and I am not entirely convinced on that matter either.< Pippin: The protection against DE's does not need to be absolute to be stronger than it is any where else. Making it absolute would make things far too easy for Dumbledore, since that would allow him to use Privet Drive as a litmus test. My personal take is that a Death Eater with evil intent would be barred, but there would be nothing to stop one from, um, shaking Harry's hand, for example. : Alla: > I definitely need to be convinced that Dumbledore's interference with Dursleys would have been lethal for Harry and for Harry only. Pippin: We have evidence of that already. Consider the upshot of the letter campaign.Harry was stranded on an island out at sea in the midst of a storm, with no shelter but a leaky hut and a thin blanket, nothing to eat once the chips and the banana were gone, no fuel, an armed and increasingly hysterical Uncle Vernon , and no escape except a rowboat. I wouldn't give long odds on any of the party surviving if the storm had kept up past morning and Hagrid hadn't arrived. But Hagrid's arrival brought its own problems. Hagrid is as Muggle-friendly a wizard as we've come across and Dumbledore would trust him with his life, but he still couldn't keep himself from using illegal magic on a Muggle. Luckily he got away with it that time, but too much magical interference would bring the Ministry into it for sure, riddled with DE's as it is. What do you want to bet Harry would've been situated with the Malfoys, if they'd been allowed to decide? And there would have to be a *lot* of interference to get Vernon to change. It's not like Vernon is a well-meaning parent who suffers from occasional lapses in judgement. He's an abusive personality through and through and it would take more than a few threats to make him change his ways--or at least I wouldn't think much of JKR's take on reality if it didn't. Pippin From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 18 23:20:07 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:20:07 -0000 Subject: The Wizarding World and Politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126324 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "someoneofsomeplace" wrote: > > > ... what do fellow listees make of the political system in the > Wizarding World. > > Fudge is an "elected" representative of the population, but we don't > know to what extent this was a democratic process. .... > > There appears to be no discernable separation of powers OR enshrined > constitution OR independent, er... reputable, news medium. .... > > I've speculated as to the role played by international law in the > wizarding world. Any thoughts? > > John. bboyminn: Two main points- First, I don't think the Ministry is a true government, although, that is only /in a sense/. Obviously, they have law enforcement, civil and criminal courts, and have a body that passes new laws. The Ministry's true purpose is to prevent the muggle world from finding out about the magic world; JKR said as much. The bulk of the /government's/ job is to deal with various aspect of this assigned task. When the Statue of Secrecy was passed, I suspect it contained a provision requiring all nations with a population of more that '_X_' (fill in the blank) number of magical citizens to form an administrative body to facilitate enforcing the Statue of Secrecy. As bureaucracies have a tendancy to do, from this basic task, the Ministry has grow into the behemoth of civil service that we see today. (Interesting side note: There are more people working for the US Dept of Agriculture, than there are farmers in the US. Bureaucracy at it's finest.) As an illstration, let's look at the Dept of Law Enforcement Divisions- Department of Magical Law Enforcement -Improper Use of Magic Office -Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office -Auror Headquarters (Dark Wizard Fighters) -Wizengamot (Court) Administrative Offices While not directly part of Law Enforcement, there is also the 'Accidental Magical Reversal Squad' and the 'Obliviator Headquarters', which I can only conclude work very closely with Magical Law Enforcement toward the end of enforcing the Statue of Secrecy. Notice the lack of common muggle branchs of law enforcement, like robbery, homicide, vice, drugs, organized crime, etc.... This reenforces my belief that /Law/ is not /primarily/ about Law and Order, but about enforcing the Statue of Secrecy. Second, while I acknowledge the figure-head of Minister of Magic, and don't deny his political clout, I see the wizard world as being ruled by committee. The most powerful committee being the Wizengamot; which is the true seat of government. The Wizengamot, I take to mean the 'committee of wise' or 'council of elders'. In a sense harkening back to old tribal law were indeed a group of tribe elders were the arbiters of right and wrong, and justice. Harry was tried before the /full court/ which we can assume is the highest court in the land. From this, I assume that the size of a court committee presiding over a hearing is based on the severity of the crime. Minor civil and criminal matters are presided over by single judge, who hears both sides, and makes a ruling. Other cases may require three judges, others five, others seven, etc.... Notice that much like the Council of Elders, each side represents themselves. That is, they do not have an advocate or representative (read- lawyer) to advise them on their rights, law, and procedure, or to speak on their behalf. In theory that is not necessary, because as the representatives of justice in the wizard world, the court is neutral, and will hear both sides and rule without prejudice. Of course, when an soft-spoken, meek, uneducated person has to make his case against an educated, aggresive, well-spoken, intimidating man of influence, it's not really a fair match. Also, rule by committe is very prone to corruption as we see in the manner in which Minister Fudge conducted Harry's trial. If Dumbledore hadn't appear as a self-proclaimed 'witness for the defense', and in reality acted as Harry's advocate, Harry would have been soooooo screwed. In a sense, we see minor degrees of corruption at all levels of government, gold changing hands, exchanging of favors, loopholed laws, etc.... Now on the matter of elections, again, I think the Wizangmot is the central authority. Among other things, they bring proposals into law. In addition, I think they appoint the next Minister of Magic, but before doing so, they pole (formally or informally) public opinion to determine which candidates are favored. While the Wizengamot can't ignore general public opinion, I don't think they are bound by it. There is one exception however, if public opinion becomes so strongly negative and vocal that the Wizengamot can't ignore it, that is the same as a de facto 'Vote of No Confidence', and essentially forces the appointment of a new goverment official (could be the Minister, or it could just be one of the department heads, etc...). I believe this is what will happen to Fudge, people will be so outraged at his incompetence, that the Wizengamot will have no choice but to dismiss him. Although in true political fashion, he will be allowed to resign to 'pursue other interests and spend more time with his family'. That saves him the disgrace of being thrown from office. When he resigns, the bulk of his supportive adminstration (Umbridge) will resign with him. I think all or nearly all department heads will stay, but those higher up and closer to Fudge will leave with him. One thing we haven't seen, and that I wonder very much about, is whether the Minister has a Cabinet, a group of appointed advisers who work for him in a paid capacity. I'm very curious about the structure of the government in the area between the department heads and the Minister himself. Perhaps, the Cabinet is made up of his department heads, and they act as his adviser, each in their area of expertice. I guess that's actually two points, the Cabinet, and the structure of government between the dept heads and the Minister. Also note that some department heads are also members of the Wizengamot, so their is some overlap in function. Can we also assume an overlap in pay; one paycheck for department head, and an additional paycheck for Wizengamot member. That combination would probably reap a pretty substantial income. I would also speculate that Ministry members aren't prevented from engaging in outside businesses which would substantially improve their income, and open the door to more corruption. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From ryokas at hotmail.com Sat Mar 19 00:02:00 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:02:00 -0000 Subject: What would Bella think or do? (was: Tom Riddle -- Who Knew?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126325 "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > SSSusan said previously: > > > The bigger question is probably whether Lucius knows TR is > > > a "mudblood." [Which I should now correct to *half-blood*!] > > Angie again: > > Didnt' Harry tell Bella that in OOP? Or was it Umbridge? He told > > somebody. Surely word will get around. > > > SSSusan: > It was Bella, and he told her in the Ministry building. The question > is whether she *believed* Harry and, even if she did, whether she > would tell anyone else. She clearly seemed upset by the comment, and > I'm not sure how she would react in the long run.... > > Anybody got any guesses on that? This post prompted me to finish the small speculation of Bellatrix's character I'd been working on. So, from my likely inaccurate perspective: It will have no effect. Bellatrix is a fanatic; likely the most loyal of all of Voldemort's supporters. The facts are unimportant in comparison to The Truth. In her trial, she was unflinchingly defiant and even proud of her actions, and it's telling that in a group where the bulk of the minions apparently don't much care of LV and keep to their roles to further their own agendas (with a cheerful dose of "I'll kill you if you try to leave") she was the one known person to defend her position when she had nothing to gain by doing so. As if that wasn't enough, here's something more. Bellatrix Lestrange spent well over a dozen years of her life in Azkaban, in torturous conditions with a high attrition rate. She shows considerable physical effects; what of the mental scars? There have to be some, and not light ones, either. Many become profoundly insane, Sirius lasted through his obsession, Bella was in for even longer than him. Once she gets out, her defining characteristic - the loyalty for her Lord - is present to such an extent that she flies into a rage in the above scene, to the point of endangering the whole mission. I theorize that Bellatrix has survived Azkaban by making LV, his rise to power and his doctrines, an obsession of her own. He's the focal point and pretty much the object of worship of her miserable life. This view could have tis own acronym. She will *not* back down where he is concerned, and come to that, might very well be the one and only willing partner should LV ever decide to procreate. Not that Voldy after all he's gone through might even be capable of that, and even if he is the viability of the fruit of such an union is very much in question. If the spawn can live, it could well be twisted with dark magics and wither its host, or just burst out of- .. you know, I see why Jim asked if I'm a front for Freddy Krueger. I think the point has been made. - Kizor From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 19 01:09:29 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:09:29 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma - Protections and Perspectives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > wrote: > > > > > > > SSSusan: > > Because now DD has the news and the proof that Voldemort *is* in > > fact back? And that gives him leverage he didn't have before? > > > > This plays into the protection I *believe* DD offered the > > Dursleys. Before Voldy returned, the Dursleys MIGHT have > > pooh-poohed the possibility that he could even do so. Thus, what > > would they care if they pitched out Harry and DD withdrew his > > protection? But now that it's clear Voldy IS back and that > > danger has come veeeerry close to their dear Dudley [even if it > > didn't come from Voldy himself], Petunia may well want to "cash > > in" on that protection, *but* she is reminded by DD's Howler that > > she can't unless she keeps Harry. > > > > No proof, of course; just my suspicions. > > > > SSSusan > Lupinlore" > > Well, the problem here Susan is that you put DD in an even worse > moral position. Not only does he do nothing, he has potential > specific leverage over the Dursleys and STILL does nothing. All > these MIGHTS just aren't an acceptable excuse for turning a blind > eye to child abuse. Sorry, but that scenario just sinks him further > into a quagmire of ineptitude/cold hearted manipulation. > > Lupinlore bboyminn: Perhaps I haven't followed this thread close enough, but I don't understand your reply Lupinlore. How does SSSusan's comment put Dumbledore in a worse moral position? Before and after Voldemort's return, the Dursley's have some spill-over protection from Harry's presences in their home. Before the fact, that protection doesn't give Dumbledore much leverage over the Dursleys because it is protection from something that doesn't actually exist, confining the context to Voldemort for the moment. The threat of withdrawing protection against a hypothetical danger, is not much of a threat and therefore is not much leverage. After the fact, that threat is very real, and now Harry's presence in their home has great value to the Dursley's. Dumbledore's potential threat to withdraw this protection therefore carries great weight. And as SSSusan noted, the Howler reminded Petunia that the protection wasn't unconditional, to keep the protection, they had to keep Harry. Oddly, the Dursley's have squandered their potential protection. Now that Harry is older, he is less likely to stay at the Dursley's for as long a period of time, and is indeed only a year or two from leaving them for good. True without Harry there, the Dursley's are less likely to be collateral damage in an attack on Harry, but with Voldemort's return, a direct attack on the Dursley's could be used as a means to draw Harry out. So, there is a very real element of danger even if Harry isn't in the house. So, again, did I miss a piece of the conversation, or am I simply missing Lupinlore's point? Some general points- Simply, Dumbledore felt Harry had the greatest protection by being in the house where his mother's blood dwells. Dumbledore further felt that this protection was INDEED necessary under the circumstances. Circumstances that we as readers do not have full information on. Harry arrived at the Dursley's at the tender age of about 1-1/2 which means it would be roughly three years (or more) before Harry ventured out of the house in any significant way. That approx. three year buffer zone, gave the danger to Harry sufficient time to mellow. Death Eaters could be tracked down. The real degree of threat could be fully assessed. In the meantime, Harry would have his maximum possible protection. To the Dursley's treatment of Harry. I will again remind people that Harry treatment is only out of order by today's very liberal standards. I must remind you all that caning (whipping) was only removed from UK schools in mid 1980's (Shaun...exact date?), and to some extent physical punishment still exists in certain school today in the US, the UK, and I assume many other countries. In addition, it was not that long ago that while the Dursley's treatment of Harry might have been considered harsh, it would not have been considered criminal. It would have fell within the scope of allowable methods for parents and guardians to raise and discipline their kids. Further, there are many kids in the real world that are horribly horribly abused relative to Harry. I'm sure, although others have their doubts, that Dumbledore agonized over continuing to leave Harry at the Dursley's, but it would take something pretty substantial to override the knowledge that this placed represented the place of greatest protection. Also, it human nature to procrastinate, to become entrench in the 'as is' and blinded to all the 'could be'. Finally, Dumbledore is a busy man, a poor excuse, but none the less true. He has a school to run. He has national and international government positions demanding his time. While I don't think that forced Harry completely out of Dumbledore's mind, he was busy, and that made it easy to accept the status quo, and diffucult to consider and impliment corrective actions. Dumbledore's human, with all it's frailties and flaws, and considering his overal good nature, I can forgive his mistakes. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Mar 19 01:25:52 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:25:52 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma - Protections and Perspectives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126327 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > Some general points- > > > To the Dursley's treatment of Harry. I will again remind people that > Harry treatment is only out of order by today's very liberal > standards. I must remind you all that caning (whipping) was only > removed from UK schools in mid 1980's (Shaun...exact date?), and to > some extent physical punishment still exists in certain school today > in the US, the UK, and I assume many other countries. That is true, but irrelevant, IMO. This isn't then, this is now. > > In addition, it was not that long ago that while the Dursley's > treatment of Harry might have been considered harsh, it would not have > been considered criminal. It would have fell within the scope of > allowable methods for parents and guardians to raise and discipline > their kids. > Once again, true but irrelevant, once again IMO. What was then is not important. What is now is. > Further, there are many kids in the real world that are horribly > horribly abused relative to Harry. Very true. However, that in no way reduces the fact of Harry's abuse, or of Dumbledore not intervening to stop it. > > I'm sure, although others have their doubts, that Dumbledore agonized > over continuing to leave Harry at the Dursley's, but it would take > something pretty substantial to override the knowledge that this > placed represented the place of greatest protection. Yes, and this is the nub of things. In order for this issue to be settled, we need some detailed exploration of these possible facts. > > Dumbledore's human, with all it's frailties and flaws, and considering > his overal good nature, I can forgive his mistakes. > > Just a thought. And a very good set of thoughts, Steve. However, once again I will have to stand by my contention that, although these are all good possibilities, we will not know until and unless JKR gives us some very careful and thoughtful exploration of these themes. Lupinlore From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 19 03:15:10 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:15:10 -0000 Subject: Leaning on the Dursleys was Hogwarts Teachers -/Re: DD's dilemma - Protectio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126328 Alla earlier: I definitely need to be convinced that Dumbledore's interference with Dursleys would have been lethal for Harry and for Harry only. Pippin: We have evidence of that already. Consider the upshot of the letter campaign.Harry was stranded on an island out at sea in the midst of a storm, with no shelter but a leaky hut and a thin blanket, nothing to eat once the chips and the banana were gone, no fuel, an armed and increasingly hysterical Uncle Vernon , and no escape except a rowboat. I wouldn't give long odds on any of the party surviving if the storm had kept up past morning and Hagrid hadn't arrived. Alla: Oh, yes, I also think that it was dangerous but what I meant under "lethal for Harry' was that Dursleys would have thrown him out and I don't see that evidence in the text. Even using your example - Dursleys did not threw Harry out when the letters start arriving , they run WITH him, which indeed makes me think that Dumbledore promised them something - protection or something like that. Lupinlore: Well, the problem here Susan is that you put DD in an even worse moral position. Not only does he do nothing, he has potential specific leverage over the Dursleys and STILL does nothing. Steve: Perhaps I haven't followed this thread close enough, but I don't understand your reply Lupinlore. How does SSSusan's comment put Dumbledore in a worse moral position? Before and after Voldemort's return, the Dursley's have some spill-over protection from Harry's presences in their home. Before the fact, that protection doesn't give Dumbledore much leverage over the Dursleys because it is protection from something that doesn't actually exist, confining the context to Voldemort for the moment. The threat of withdrawing protection against a hypothetical danger, is not much of a threat and therefore is not much leverage. Alla: I am going to give my reasons and my reasons only why I think it puts Dumbledore in even worse moral position. I disagree that before the fact such protection does not give Dumbledore much leverage , because if Dursleys indeed accepted such protection from the beginning , they were sufficiently scared of the fact that Voldemort may come back even HYPOTHETICALLY. I think that if Dumbledore threatened to withdrew such protection during those ten years, it would have worked very nicely. Dursleys accepted that protection when Voldemort was not back yet. I submit that they would not have wanted to lose it whether Voldemort was there or not. And of course all of it is just speculation. We are not even sure whether such protection was offered in the first place, although I do think that Susan was convincing and something WAS offered to Dursleys. Just my opinion, Alla From cparnell at bigpond.net.au Sat Mar 19 05:12:53 2005 From: cparnell at bigpond.net.au (saieditor) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:12:53 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry and DE Children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126329 I have given a lot of reflection to public morality in the Wizarding World. To my reading it is a world with public morality gone awry. Bigotry, corruption, vendetta and duels are commonplace. It is largely a world of vanity, egotism, and putting Number 1 first, except for those who have mastered the ego. Look at Fudge. Lucius Malfoy. St Mungo's on Christmas Day. A larger part of my public morality reflection focuses on Snape and his treatment of Harry. It is my contention that Snape is continuing a feud or quarrel with the dead through a child of the dead. This in any dispensation is the stuff of meaness and anti social personality. A most confusing man, Snape. Recently re-reading OOP, I see that Snape does not admit feeling and emotion as a means of motivation, defense nor behaviour. (see Occulmency lessons) Snape only values the supression of feeling and emotion. He is an extraordinarily complex character, of mixed loyalties and perverse when it suits him, and self protective when it suits him. For example, would he continue to treat Harry's Potions lessons and samples thus presented as he does in front of McGonagall or Dumbledore? I think not; he would put on a face and avoid detection of his vendetta with James Potter through Harry. IF this is true, then we must assume that beneath the layers of ice and hostility, history and loyalties, there is a moral faculty within Snape which is yet to emerge. I would point to the Veritaserum episode in Umbridge's Office as an example of Snape's loyalty to the Order of Phoenix, rather than Snape deflecting Umbridge away from Harry's knowledge for reasons of immoral behaviour by a [Head Teacher] witch or wizard. Chris in Shepparton. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > SSSusan wrote: > Potioncat: > McGonagall tells Harry he's performing at "Acceptable" in > > Alla: Welcome back. I think you are stretching it a little bit with Snape having a reason to hide Potter's true ability in potions. Hide from whom? I never completely bought "Snape has to be nasty to Harry, because there are DE children in the class", but that I can at least understand. Could you elaborate a little bit? From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 19 05:23:31 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:23:31 -0000 Subject: Leaning on the Dursleys was Hogwarts Teachers -/Re: DD's dilemma - Protectio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126330 Alla: > I disagree that before the fact such protection does not give > Dumbledore much leverage , because if Dursleys indeed accepted > such protection from the beginning , they were sufficiently scared > of the fact that Voldemort may come back even HYPOTHETICALLY. I > think that if Dumbledore threatened to withdrew such protection > during those ten years, it would have worked very nicely. > > Dursleys accepted that protection when Voldemort was not back yet. > I submit that they would not have wanted to lose it whether > Voldemort was there or not. SSSusan: And I *do* think that a threat to withdraw protection after a couple of years had passed would NOT have worked very nicely. :-) What I am arguing is very much what Steve picked up on a few posts back. Let's say that Petunia (I'm leaving Vernon out on purpose, since he likely has no inside info on the WW) believed & understood that Voldemort & the DEs were evil & dangerous. When Harry appeared on her doorstep, presumably accompanied by the news that Voldy appeared to have been vanquished, but that it was POSSIBLE that he might manage to come back because of his work towards immortality, this would have frightened Petunia greatly. Thus, Petunia might think accepting DD's protection would be advisable. Then time passes.... No news of Voldy.... No DEs in Little Whinging.... No danger seems imminent any more. My argument is that it's **human nature** to stop focusing on a potential danger as time passes without its appearing. Right after 9/11 many people were understandably very, very vigilant about safety. After a couple of years, a lot of people are, well, frankly, less focused on safety, less fretful about getting on a plane or going into a highrise, simply because they've had more & more experiences over time *without* another 9/11 happening. (I'm not saying that's smart; I'm saying it's human nature.) This is why I think DD didn't have much leverage after a time. Petunia may have *stopped believing* there was any danger of Voldy returning. I mean, if he was going to do it, wouldn't he get it done as soon as possible? Yet 2, 3, 4... years go by, with no attack, no sign of problem, and it's EASY to believe there is no real danger, that DD was wrong about Voldy coming back. So why need any protection? Not that you're going to refuse it outright, necessarily, but you just stop thinking about it. If DD demands the Dursleys treat Harry properly, they could laugh in his face and say, "Why? Nothing's going to happen to us! You can't make us! YOU NEED US more than we need you." But. At the end of Harry's 4th year, what Petunia had possibly believed never would happen *did* happen. The danger which had faded out of the realm of possibility had come back with a bang. Fear returns, desperation to protect her family returns. And wham! - - DD has leverage over them he didn't in those years when they didn't believe Voldy would return. I take the threat by the Order members at King's Cross as evidence that the Order *does* understand they have more pull with the Dursleys than they did before Voldy reappeared. I also suspect that how the D's treat Harry at the start of HBP will tell us a lot about whether my view is right or way off base. Siriusly Snapey Susan From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat Mar 19 06:59:28 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:59:28 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Future of SPEW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1763272594.20050318225928@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126331 Thursday, March 17, 2005, 6:45:21 AM, lupinlore wrote: l> I doubt she is going to face any kind of re-evaluation of l> her values or her overall strategy of working to free the elves. In l> other words, I very, very much expect that her opinions will be l> vindicated. I think Jo has dropped numerous hints that House Elves are very, very powerful magically. -- In some ways maybe more powerful than Wizards. And that makes me wonder if the reason House Elves have been enslaved all these centuries is because Wizards fear their power, and so feel a need to keep it shackled, possibly with some massive House-Elf-specific variation on the Imperious Curse. I think the situation will change when the vast power of House Elves becomes instrumental in defeating LV. This I think is when Hermione will be vindicated. -- Dave From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Mar 19 07:50:10 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:50:10 -0000 Subject: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126332 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miikka R." wrote: Kizor: > It will have no effect. Bellatrix is a fanatic; likely the most loyal > of all of Voldemort's supporters. The facts are unimportant in > comparison to The Truth. > > In her trial, she was unflinchingly defiant and even proud of her > actions, and it's telling that in a group where the bulk of the > minions apparently don't much care of LV and keep to their roles to > further their own agendas (with a cheerful dose of "I'll kill you if > you try to leave") she was the one known person to defend her position > when she had nothing to gain by doing so. Geoff: Looking at this post and Steve's last one was interesting because in my thinking, I had also been drawing parallels with the Nazis and other dictatorships. The subtle difference is that Hitler's non-Aryan background was obvious from his physical appearance; he was not blond, blue-eyed or rippling with muscles. It is not obvious in the Wizarding World whether someone is pure-blood, half-blood or bloodless :-) by their appearance. Again, it has been pointed out that these leaders - Hitler, Voldemort - carefully ignored the fact that they did not match their own criteria to be one of the chosen people. Apart from that, there are similarities in the behaviour of followers. Many of Hitler's associates were fanatical in their support even in the last days when the regime was falling apart around their ears - a good example of this was Joseph Goebbels who was still pumping out propaganda when the Russians were fighting their way into Berlin. Folk like this hear what they want to hear and anything else is a lie put out by the "enemy" - political, war or personal opponents. So I still believe that Bellatrix didn't know about Voldemort's half-blood background but, having heard it from Harry would, as I think Steve suggested, dismiss it as the bumblings of a child or, from an adult, from someone who didn't have the special knowledge to understand what the "leader" stood for. Mark you, it is true of all the notable dictators that there are always folk in the wings trying to get into the right position for the moment when something happens to the leader; that element in Bellatrix plus her apparent devotion to Voldemort plus her mental state after so much time in Azkaban could make her a more dangerous opponent to deal with in the ultimate showdown. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 19 07:56:11 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:56:11 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma= Declarative Statements of Abuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126333 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich > wrote: > > I really, really hope we're not going to go off on another > > fruitless round of squabbling over whether child abuse is a Very > > Bad Thing. We all agree on that. The question is whether what > > Harry had to put up with was child abuse or just really bad > > parenting. > > > > ... Harry is wary not to give them a reason to send him to his > > closet and he certainly doesn't like them but he was not > > an abused child. > > > > Magda > Lupinlore: > > Well, with respect, I think that is a totally indefensible > position. Sorry, but being locked in a closet and denied food DOES > constitute child abuse. > > Lupinlore bboyminn: I agree, I don't really know if we want to open this can of worms again, not after, just recently, the subject of abuse was discussed in great detail for many many days on end. Yet, here I am posting again. The Dursleys were mean, nasty, and /abusive/ people with regard to Harry, and I find it hard to believe anyone would dispute that statement. But the problem comes when I read people making absolute declarative statement about (capital "C") Child (capital "A") Abuse. In addition, it doesn't matter if they believe Harry was or wasn't abused; my uneasy, tight stomach, uncomfortable feeling is the same. Obviously, it's not an intellectual problem, it's an emotional one, it makes me very uneasy, and I admit, it's MY problem. We think that 'child abuse' is absolute; it either is, or it isn't. But different times, different cultures, different countries, different laws all have different ideas of what constitutes /abuse/. What constitutes abuse legally and socially is a very variable thing. Since I am very confident that we can get a high concensus on the statement that the Dursleys were mean, nasty, and /abusive/ people with regard to Harry, we should leave it at that. Everytime we get into statements of (capital "C") Child (capital "A") Abuse, we get mired in /interpretations/ which, in addition, are clouded by very strong emotions all around. In that area, and after many long hours/days/months/years of debate, the best we have ever come up with is to agree to disagree. In short, we can debate whether Harry was ABUSED (note capital letters) but is there anyone who would argue that the Dursleys were NOT /abusive/? Trying to add perspective to a very emotionally charged subject. steve/bboyminn From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Mar 19 15:04:13 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:04:13 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126334 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: Absent more evidence about his thoughts and actions during > those ten years, I think it is perfectly plausible to think he > approached this as a way to keep his essential weapon locked up safely -- and if it gets banged up a little in the process, well that's not anything to worry about. In other words, in the great battle between what's good and what's right, Albus just closed his eyes, stuck gum in his ears, and took the easy way out. If it turns out that Albus underwent a great deal of > tension and turmoil over this situation, and that he had perfectly good evidence that Harry was in immediate danger that he could not have shielded him from even at Hogwarts, then he's off the hook. But I have to admit, it ain't looking good for him at the moment.< Pippin: Sorry, but we already know that any DE who was willing to risk creating a portkey could spirit Harry away from Hogwarts at any time. Privet Drive appears to be a different story, at least Voldemort in GoF is definite that his plans to kidnap Harry couldn't have been put into effect while Harry was there. But I think what appears to be the lack of turmoil and tension is a cultural difference. If Job had been an Englishman of the old school, he would have sunk his head in his hands and shed a single tear, by which other gentlemen of the old school would have known that he was utterly overcome by his grief. Sackcloth, ashes, breastbeating and going to sit on the dunghill would have struck them as foreign excess. Pippin From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 19 15:16:44 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:16:44 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) References: Message-ID: <423C425C.000001.01400@KATHRYN> No: HPFGUIDX 126335 Pippin: But I think what appears to be the lack of turmoil and tension is a cultural difference. If Job had been an Englishman of the old school, he would have sunk his head in his hands and shed a single tear, by which other gentlemen of the old school would have known that he was utterly overcome by his grief. Sackcloth, ashes, breastbeating and going to sit on the dunghill would have struck them as foreign excess. K That would actually make a great deal of sense to me as an argument if the character you're talking about weren't Albus Dumbledore - who strikes me as being far too flamboyant and open to be associated with the words 'stiff, uper lip'! Other characters tend to act in that way, although I imagine they all have thier blind spots where they act emotionally rather than suppressing their feelings, Snape, Vernon Dursley and Minerva McGonagall could all fit into that patters. Vernon's out bursts only occur when Harry is involved. Snape may be mean but he only tends to be emotional and irrational where the Marauders are involved (directly or indirectly). I'm not sure what Minerva's blind spot is but she probably has one, the school possibly? Dumbledore on the other hand may be secretive about information but he's always been fairly open about his emotions. K [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Mar 19 15:16:55 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:16:55 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma - Protections and Perspectives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126336 Steve (bboyminn) said: (and in my opinion, said well) > To the Dursley's treatment of Harry. I will again remind people that > Harry treatment is only out of order by today's very liberal > standards. I must remind you all that caning (whipping) was only > removed from UK schools in mid 1980's (Shaun...exact date?), and to > some extent physical punishment still exists in certain school today > in the US, the UK, and I assume many other countries. Ginger: Steve, you hit on something that has been on my brain since the last time this subject was on screen. I think you are right on target. My question is: At what point would DD have intervened, if this was an option? I'm still undecided as to whether or not it was, but for the sake of arguement, let's say it was. DD is 150 years old, give or take. So at the time Harry was placed with the Dursleys, DD was 140ish. Unless my math is off (could be), this means DD was born circa 1840. If he had children, he would have raised them around 1860 to 1900, possibly even up to 1950. I am giving him a broad range due to WW life expectancy. Of course, I wasn't personally around at this time, but if you look at history, childrearing has changed drasticly. Offhand, I think of the "Little House" books by Laura Ingalls Wilder, who was raised in the mid to late 1800's. I remember a scene where she slapped her sister Mary, and Pa saw it and called her into the house. She fully expected to be spanked with a strap. She was about 4 or 5 at the time. She knew she deserved it, but he surprised her by not punishing her. Her parents are portrayed throughout the series as very loving parents. This was just how things were done then. Back to DD. If he was raised in this era, by these standards, the Dursleys must not have looked like much of a threat to him. Comparatively speaking. But it is not a light comparison. Were the hindquarters of children in the 1800's any less delicate than those in the 1900's? Well, maybe after a few strappings. ;o) For the most part, our views tend to be formed during our late childhood and early adulthood. We question them, test them, and with some exceptions, have them set by mid-adulthood. (OT aside):My sister teaches university classes in gerontology. She did an interesting presentation on how the music that was popular in our youths reflects the values we carry on in life. I wonder if we asked people as close as we could find to DD's age if the Dursleys were abusive, what the answers would be. Probably as varied as ours, but I'd bet a knut that they'd see it as less abusive than we would. Back on topic: DD seems to be pretty progressive in his childrearing views for someone of his generation. We know whippings aren't allowed at Hogwarts. I inferred that it was due to his influence. I could be wrong there. But we have never seen the Dursleys whip Harry. We have seen him sent to his room (or in the first book, closet) without supper, and often for days at a time. We have seen Dudley smack him and bully him. We have seen him forced to do many extra chores which Dudley didn't have to do. Which was very unfair, but not abusive. They were chores a child that age could be expected to do in a home without servants. We have seen him subsist on minimal feedings. Again, very nasty. I would say this is the worst thing they have done to him, but then again, I'm rather fond of food and get very cranky when my access is limited. So where would have been DD's "cut off point"? Would he intervene if they whipped him? If they kept him from going to school? If they knowingly allowed a child molester to take him for the weekend? My guess is probably so. (Again, assuming he could have.) One thing I wonder, and there is no conclusive canon that I could find (any help here would be appreciated): How much and how often was he punished for things which did *not* involve magic? It seems like all the punishment that I recall involved magic in some way: the teacher's wig, being on top of the school, his hair regrowing, etc. Petunia's response to his query about his parents' death was just a thin lined mouth, and "Don't ask questions". I haven't found any other non-magical references. So what it comes down to, if DD could have intervened, is at what point he would have done so. Given the life experience and mindset of those typical of his generation, rather than imposing those that have come about very recently (in the grand scheme of things), what would led him to intervene? The Dursleys didn't love Harry. That should have been the greatest motivating factor in his treatment, and the Dursleys thouroughly failed on that. I can grit my teeth and deal with the other things they did, but for that one thing, I can not forgive them. But I can not say that, knowing what we know, I would have intervened. As almost everyone has said, we don't know enough at this point. As always, unless I am referring to actual canon, these are my opinions and my take on the subject. Others may agree or disagree as they see fit. Ginger, who wishes she could slap the $4!+ out of some of the kids she sees in the store where she works, as their parents obviously haven't done so. Nasty, bratty, thieving little monsters. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Mar 19 16:14:52 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:14:52 -0000 Subject: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126337 I have been trying to understand Bella. As an Auror and Metamorphmagus I want to impersonate her. But I can't quite get the mindset. I am hoping that some more imaginative folks here can help me understand her. She seems to be a strong, heartless woman. I can't quite understand the mindset of someone that likes to hurt other people. And I am perplexed by the groveling she does at the feet of LV. Do we ever see Lucius grovel? I don't remember him ever doing that. Maybe because he know LV's dirty little secret (Tom) and LV allows Lucius a little slack because of this. Anyway how can a person be strong, unyielding, cruel and loving it one minute, and the next be a sniveling, whimpering being groveling at the feet of LV? I just don't get it. Can someone help me understand what is in Bella head? Thanks. Tonks_op From elanorpam at yahoo.com.br Sat Mar 19 16:24:37 2005 From: elanorpam at yahoo.com.br (Paula "Elanor Pam") Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:24:37 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Leaning on the Dursleys was Hogwarts Teachers -/Re: DD's dilemma - Protectio References: Message-ID: <008601c52ca0$27720320$0601010a@harrypotter> No: HPFGUIDX 126338 From: "dumbledore11214" Alla: > I disagree that before the fact such protection does not give > Dumbledore much leverage , because if Dursleys indeed accepted such > protection from the beginning , they were sufficiently scared of the > fact that Voldemort may come back even HYPOTHETICALLY. I think that > if Dumbledore threatened to withdrew such protection during those > ten years, it would have worked very nicely. > > Dursleys accepted that protection when Voldemort was not back yet. I > submit that they would not have wanted to lose it whether Voldemort > was there or not. >From Vernon's reaction to the Dementor attack, I suppose the "protection" was offered only to Petunia, or only she knows about it (...if there was a protection in the first place). Vernon didn't seem to have much of an idea who Voldemort was, and he didn't show any qualms on kicking Harry out the doorway the instant he understood what Voldy could do. I actually think Dumbledore had both his hands tied, as the only party he could make business with was Petunia and until OOTP we barely see her have any say over Vernon. If he tried to reason with Vernon, he'd probably have furniture chucked at his head before a single word, and even if he managed to relay the message, who guarantees that crass, thickheaded, bigoted Vernon would truly understand what it was about. "So, there's an evil guy after Harry, but if Harry's here no one will be able to harm us/ get near the house/ whatever the protection is really about? Well, it's not my problem, get the brat out of my sight!! I don't wanna have any to do with these crazy folk and their M word!!" That's the reaction I can see coming from him. I think only Petunia really knew about the blood protection and any other special protection they received, and also knew she'd be unable to reason with Vernon on the matter, so she just worked him by using the "think of what the neighbours will say if..." excuse. She did insist Harry was kept at home after the dementor attack. I hope my arguments are understandable, my head feels funny for some reason XD;; Elanor Pam From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Mar 19 16:36:33 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:36:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050319163633.9724.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126339 --- Kathryn wrote: > That would actually make a great deal of sense to me as an argument > if the character you're talking about weren't Albus Dumbledore - > who strikes me as being far too flamboyant and open to be > associated with the words 'stiff, upper lip'!... > Dumbledore on the other hand may be secretive about information but > he's always been fairly open about his emotions. Or he's always been careful to create that public image of himself. A lot of that barminess is carefully cultivated so that he appears less threatening to wizarding society. I think Pippin is right - the head in the hands and the single tear was the equivalent of a Generation X-er howling in anguish and breaking up furniture. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 19 18:06:04 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:06:04 -0000 Subject: Teachers' blind spots (was: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: <423C425C.000001.01400@KATHRYN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126340 > Dumbledore... strikes me as being far too flamboyant and > open to be associated with the words 'stiff, uper lip'! Other > characters tend to act in that way, although I imagine they > all have thier blind spots.... > > I'm not sure what Minerva's blind spot is but she probably has > one, the school possibly? SSSusan: Oh, it's Quidditch!! Remember she sobbed harder than Wood when Gryffindor won the championship? And that she actually *broke* the rules [not a common occurence for MM!] to get Harry a broom and allow him on the Gryffindor team as a first year? Siriusly Snapey Susan From stix4141 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 19 21:34:30 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:34:30 -0000 Subject: The Future of SPEW In-Reply-To: <1763272594.20050318225928@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126341 Dave Hardenbrook wrote: I think Jo has dropped numerous hints that House Elves are very, very powerful magically. -- In some ways maybe more powerful than Wizards. And that makes me wonder if the reason House Elves have been enslaved all these centuries is because Wizards fear their power, and so feel a need to keep it shackled, possibly with some massive House-Elf-specific variation on the Imperious Curse. I think the situation will change when the vast power of House Elves becomes instrumental in defeating LV. This I think is when Hermione will be vindicated. stickbook now: Sounds good. However, what if Hermione manages to free the Elves en masse, only to have them do more damage than good? I got the impression that the majority of the folks here felt that Hermione was headed for what one member called "a major lapse in judgement" that would have profoundly negative effects on Harry et al. Perhaps this could be it; especially given Hermione's insensitivity to the wishes of the Elves, the very creatures she is trying to set free. stickbook From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 19 23:09:27 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:09:27 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Wizarding World and Politics References: <1111246942.30885.28574.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001701c52cd8$b69c93c0$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 126342 O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:20:07 -0000 From: "Steve" Subject: Re: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "someoneofsomeplace" wrote: > > > ... what do fellow listees make of the political system in the > Wizarding World. > > Fudge is an "elected" representative of the population, but we don't > know to what extent this was a democratic process. .... > > There appears to be no discernable separation of powers OR enshrined > constitution OR independent, er... reputable, news medium. .... > > I've speculated as to the role played by international law in the > wizarding world. Any thoughts? > > John. bboyminn: Two main points- First, I don't think the Ministry is a true government, although, that is only /in a sense/. Obviously, they have law enforcement, civil and criminal courts, and have a body that passes new laws. The Ministry's true purpose is to prevent the muggle world from finding out about the magic world; JKR said as much. The bulk of the /government's/ job is to deal with various aspect of this assigned task. When the Statue of Secrecy was passed, I suspect it contained a provision requiring all nations with a population of more that '_X_' (fill in the blank) number of magical citizens to form an administrative body to facilitate enforcing the Statue of Secrecy. As bureaucracies have a tendancy to do, from this basic task, the Ministry has grow into the behemoth of civil service that we see today. (Interesting side note: There are more people working for the US Dept of Agriculture, than there are farmers in the US. Bureaucracy at it's finest.) As an illstration, let's look at the Dept of Law Enforcement Divisions- Department of Magical Law Enforcement -Improper Use of Magic Office -Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office -Auror Headquarters (Dark Wizard Fighters) -Wizengamot (Court) Administrative Offices While not directly part of Law Enforcement, there is also the 'Accidental Magical Reversal Squad' and the 'Obliviator Headquarters', which I can only conclude work very closely with Magical Law Enforcement toward the end of enforcing the Statue of Secrecy. Notice the lack of common muggle branchs of law enforcement, like robbery, homicide, vice, drugs, organized crime, etc.... This reenforces my belief that /Law/ is not /primarily/ about Law and Order, but about enforcing the Statue of Secrecy. Second, while I acknowledge the figure-head of Minister of Magic, and don't deny his political clout, I see the wizard world as being ruled by committee. The most powerful committee being the Wizengamot; which is the true seat of government. The Wizengamot, I take to mean the 'committee of wise' or 'council of elders'. In a sense harkening back to old tribal law were indeed a group of tribe elders were the arbiters of right and wrong, and justice. Harry was tried before the /full court/ which we can assume is the highest court in the land. From this, I assume that the size of a court committee presiding over a hearing is based on the severity of the crime. Minor civil and criminal matters are presided over by single judge, who hears both sides, and makes a ruling. Other cases may require three judges, others five, others seven, etc.... Notice that much like the Council of Elders, each side represents themselves. That is, they do not have an advocate or representative (read- lawyer) to advise them on their rights, law, and procedure, or to speak on their behalf. In theory that is not necessary, because as the representatives of justice in the wizard world, the court is neutral, and will hear both sides and rule without prejudice. Of course, when an soft-spoken, meek, uneducated person has to make his case against an educated, aggresive, well-spoken, intimidating man of influence, it's not really a fair match. Also, rule by committe is very prone to corruption as we see in the manner in which Minister Fudge conducted Harry's trial. If Dumbledore hadn't appear as a self-proclaimed 'witness for the defense', and in reality acted as Harry's advocate, Harry would have been soooooo screwed. In a sense, we see minor degrees of corruption at all levels of government, gold changing hands, exchanging of favors, loopholed laws, etc.... Now on the matter of elections, again, I think the Wizangmot is the central authority. Among other things, they bring proposals into law. In addition, I think they appoint the next Minister of Magic, but before doing so, they pole (formally or informally) public opinion to determine which candidates are favored. While the Wizengamot can't ignore general public opinion, I don't think they are bound by it. There is one exception however, if public opinion becomes so strongly negative and vocal that the Wizengamot can't ignore it, that is the same as a de facto 'Vote of No Confidence', and essentially forces the appointment of a new goverment official (could be the Minister, or it could just be one of the department heads, etc...). I believe this is what will happen to Fudge, people will be so outraged at his incompetence, that the Wizengamot will have no choice but to dismiss him. Although in true political fashion, he will be allowed to resign to 'pursue other interests and spend more time with his family'. That saves him the disgrace of being thrown from office. When he resigns, the bulk of his supportive adminstration (Umbridge) will resign with him. I think all or nearly all department heads will stay, but those higher up and closer to Fudge will leave with him. One thing we haven't seen, and that I wonder very much about, is whether the Minister has a Cabinet, a group of appointed advisers who work for him in a paid capacity. I'm very curious about the structure of the government in the area between the department heads and the Minister himself. Perhaps, the Cabinet is made up of his department heads, and they act as his adviser, each in their area of expertice. I guess that's actually two points, the Cabinet, and the structure of government between the dept heads and the Minister. Also note that some department heads are also members of the Wizengamot, so their is some overlap in function. Can we also assume an overlap in pay; one paycheck for department head, and an additional paycheck for Wizengamot member. That combination would probably reap a pretty substantial income. I would also speculate that Ministry members aren't prevented from engaging in outside businesses which would substantially improve their income, and open the door to more corruption. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 19 23:13:09 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:13:09 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Wizarding World and Politics References: <1111246942.30885.28574.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001b01c52cd9$389d85a0$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 126343 Steve wrote >One thing we haven't seen, and that I wonder very much about, is >whether the Minister has a Cabinet, a group of appointed advisers who >work for him in a paid capacity. I'm very curious about the structure >of the government in the area between the department heads and the >Minister himself. Perhaps, the Cabinet is made up of his department >heads, and they act as his adviser, each in their area of expertice. I >guess that's actually two points, the Cabinet, and the structure of >government between the dept heads and the Minister. In between the department heads and the top of the greasy pole are Junior Ministers. Fudge was one at the time of Voldemort's defeat, as he tells us in PoA. There may of course only be one but I believe he phrases it as "I was _a_ Junior Minister" rather than "I was _the_ Junior Minister" which suggests that there are more than one. If each has an area of responsibility, then perhaps that's the "Cabinet" Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Mar 20 00:28:23 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:28:23 -0000 Subject: Inside Bella was Re: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126344 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > She seems to be a strong, heartless woman. >snip snip< > Anyway how can a person be strong, unyielding, cruel and loving it one minute, and the next be a sniveling, whimpering being groveling at the feet of LV? I just don't get it. < Pippin: She's not a woman at all, really. She's an overgrown child. JKR symbolizes this by having her use that baby voice. Other people are her toys, to be broken if it pleases her. LV is her substitute parent, whom she's desperate to please. Pippin From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 02:23:49 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:23:49 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126345 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > And turning a blind eye to child abuse is a minor consequence? I > suppose if you (generic you, not you personally) ARE talking about > Harry as a weapon rather than a human being, one could see the abuse > as a minor consequence. From the evidence we have Albus might be > thinking about Harry as a weapon. If that is the case, it is a good > argument. It is also morally reprehensible and he deserves some > severe consequences for that lapse. As I've said, it isn't enough > to get Albus off the hook to show that he had reasons. To get him > out from under the moral burden it needs to be shown that he paid > attention to the consequences of his decision and cared about them > and that he honestly BELIEVED that Harry WOULD have died -- not that > he "might" have died "if" Voldemort returned -- if he intervened to > stop the Dursleys child abuse. I think there are a few things we must take into consideration before we accuse Dumbledore of allowing the Dursleys to abuse Harry. First is Dumbledore's definition of abuse - we know Neville was dropped out a window to see if he had any wizarding ability. This suggests that the moral compass of wizards differs a bit from that of Muggles. Maybe some of what we consider abuse isn't considered abuse by wizards because it doesn't really cause any harm to wizarding children. Second, we must ask how much Dumbledore really knew about the abuse. He knew they weren't very friendly, and didn't like Harry, but did Arabella Figg know that he lived in the cupboard under the stair? She babysat on Dudley's birthday each year, but I doubt she knew much about what happened inside the house. Even she said she couldn't risk being too nice, lest the Dursley find someone else (presumably who would be even worse) to watch him. Third, we must ask what the risk was to Harry. I think in the beginning it was more than just the blood protection. Obviously the Ministry knows where Harry is now, but did they know before he entered Hogwarts? Maybe the Death Eaters couldn't have harmed Harry, but they could have made his life miserable - far worse than the Dursleys, if they had gotten hold of him as a young child. Maybe the LeStranges didn't otrture the Longbottoms to find Voldemort, but to find Harry. We don't know how much they knew about the prophesy, but maybe they knew LV was after Harry, and wanted to eliminate him after LV was gone. If that's true, then staying with any Wizarding family would have been a risk - far worse than what he suffered in the Dursley household. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Mar 20 02:52:45 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:52:45 -0000 Subject: Prince/Hans/Salazar/Apparation/Christmas/Hermione/Wand/MuggleClothes/Abuse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126346 Fitzov wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125996 : << The biggest issue I have with the identity of the Half Blood Prince, relates to the use of the title "Prince". JKR has give no hints whatsoever that there is any equivalent of Wizard Monarchy, and her books actually strike me as out-and-out republican. There are no Kings and Queens, and therefore no Princes and Princesses. >> According to the Lexicon, http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/wizards-l-n.html#Merlin Merlin's Famous Wizard card says: "Sometimes known as the Prince of Enchanters." I thought he was called that because his magic was so powerful, but I can't find that in the Lexicon. Hans Andrea wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126008 : << Yesterday I mentioned that Lucius is a special part of the physical body. Let's work it out. His son is pale and has a long, pointed face. Lucius is also pale. In Draco's case the longevity points to the length of the spinal cord and the paleness is the colour of the spinal cord. Ergo: Lucius is the brain with its consciousness. The spinal cord is a kind of "son" of the brain. It comes out of the brain, doesn't it? >> I admire your deduction, but am disappointed that it didn't end up that Lucius is the prick. Ffred Manawydan wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126010 : << faced with the situation he was faced with, how many of us today would end up with Helga and how many with Salazar? >> Me, I'd pick the same way as Rowena. Btw, how did she figure out which children were the 'cleverest' if she didn't speak their language? Snow wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/126017 : << her reasons for not sending him to Durmstrang, as far as her son and husband are concerned, were that it was too far. What is too far away for a witch who can apparate or use floo powder, sounds like a lame excuse if I ever heard one >> QUIDDITCH THROUGH THE AGES says that Apparation is more dangerous the longer the distance covered and only the most talented mages try to Apparate across entire continents. It says that wizards used ships to cross oceans until a broomstick capable of flying so long a distance was invented. I think JKR views Apparation and Floo as a great deal more limited than us readers do, and never thought of Steve bboyminn's plan of Apparating across the continent by a series of short Apparations from city to city. Karen the Unicorn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126041 : << I personally would rather debate the reason why they celebrate Christmas in the Potter universe? They don't show images of Santa Claus at the Christmas feast..neither do they show images of baby Jesus...so..what is their equivalent of having Christmas..and Easter for that matter. >> Winter Solstice and Spring Equinox were celebrated in many cultures before Christianity. We see that the wizarding folk live a long time and resist change (they still wear Medieval clothing in the twentieth century), so I assume that their pre-Christian religions (in Britain, primarily Druidism and religio Roma) were never rooted out, so that there are now two main religions at Hogwarts (plus as many other religions as Muggleborn and half-blood students were raised with by their Muggle families): one would be about half-way between Roman Catholic and Anglican, and the other would be The Old Religion, consisting of all local pre-Christian religions mushed together. So that even tho' I think Hogwarts was probably more religious in past centuries, the holiday feasts would always have been somewhat secular because of 'lowest common denominator'. imamommy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126173 : << And what about Hermione: she wasn't there when the boys got a peek in [the Mirror of Erised] first year. But what would she want most now? >> I think her vision first year would have been a heap of books containing all the knowledge in the world, altho' her crying in the restroom because everyone hated her and her gloating over 112% on the Charms exam suggest the possibility that her vision would have been all the people at Hogwarts cheering her and asking for her autograph. I think her vision during GoF and into OoP would have been seeing all the House Elves happy in their clothes and freedom, but events in OoP may have changed it to seeing Harry in a better mood or seeing LV defeated. The bit about writing a letter to tell her parents she'd been made prefect because 'prefect is something they can understand' suggests the possibility that she has a greater desire for closeness with her Muggle family than she lets on, possibly represented by a vision of them as happy guests at Hogwarts. a_svirn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126184 : << I think [knitting and hiding the elf hats] as well as ones with centaurs and sneak-jinx shows that she should have been in Slytherin if it wasn't for her muggle provenance. Any means to achieve the end an all that. >> I noticed that in CoS when she so calmly arranged to drug Crabbe and Goyle with sleeping potion, then realised that the whole plan for accessing the Restricted Section, stealing the ingredients, etc, was pretty Slytherin. Angie asked in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126203 : << Who else besides DD and Harry do we know for certain knows that Voldemort is Tom Riddle? >> Ollivander knew that he had sold the wand that LV was using. Either he sold it to Tom Riddle and knew that Tom Riddle was LV, or he had sold a wand to a red-eyed noseless scaley snake-man LV. Tonks_op wrote http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126207 : << It has bothered me that [Ron] wears Muggle clothes and he doesn't live in the Muggle world. It doesn't make sense. >> I assume that wearing Muggle clothes became a fad among young wizards and witches soon after the first fall of LV. It may have started with older kids trying to show that they were on the anti-LV pro-Muggleborn winning side by dressing like their Muggleborn classmates, but soon became 'these styles are cool/hot, not like that old fuddyduddy stuff my parents wear', and now maybe Ron doesn't even *know* that those are Muggle styles. I suppose it is generally known that the reason kids wear jeans that sag to show their boxer shorts (spray-painted on hiphuggers that show their thongs is quite another thing) to look like 'gangstas', but how widely known is it that gangstas' jeans sag because CYA (California Youth AUthority, juvenile prison) doesn't allow belts, which could be used as weapons? And the CYA clothes are all too big because CYA has better things to do with its time than try to find well-fitting clothing for a bunch of convicted growing children. Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126209 : << The one problem I have is the pureblood parents having no clue what Muggle clothes look like. Surely they had Muggleborn friends when they were in school, and also they and their children have to pass as Muggles when they take the kids to Platform 9 3/4 and pick them up at the end of the year, so they must have *some* idea what those clothes look like. >> >From memory, at the beginning of GoF, when Ron writes to Harry that the Weasleys will pick him up to take him to see Quidditch World Cup, Uncle Vernon says something rude about the way those people dress, and Harry reflects that he has never seen Mr and Mrs Weasley wearing Muggle clothing. I wondered at the time how large numbers of people in wizarding robes going to King's Cross twice a year could go unnoticed by us Muggles.... Steve bboyminn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126326 : << Harry treatment is only out of order by today's very liberal standards. (snip) In addition, it was not that long ago that while the Dursley's treatment of Harry might have been considered harsh, it would not have been considered criminal. It would have fell within the scope of allowable methods for parents and guardians to raise and discipline their kids. >> Think about fairy tales which were published during the Victorian period. Many of them starred mis-treated step-children. Much of the mis-treatment was similar to Dursley treatment of Harry: sleep on the floor or a very bad bed, wear rags, limited food, forced to do mass quantities of housework while the evil step-mother's own children wore fine clothes and went to parties all the time... To me, the context of the stories shows that the Victorian readers found that degree of favoritism between the children in a family to be Out Of Order despite being legal. Tonks_op wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126337 : << Anyway how can a person be strong, unyielding, cruel and loving it one minute, and the next be a sniveling, whimpering being groveling at the feet of LV? I just don't get it. Can someone help me understand what is in Bella head? Thanks. >> It seems it is not uncommon among S&M people for a person to play 'bottom' to one person and 'top' to another person, so I don't see any contradiction in Bella's behavior. What I find harder is to explain that s&m people, playing consensual games that both partners enjoy, are not at all like Bella's true viciousness... From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 03:21:06 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 03:21:06 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126347 Meltowne: I think there are a few things we must take into consideration before we accuse Dumbledore of allowing the Dursleys to abuse Harry. First is Dumbledore's definition of abuse - we know Neville was dropped out a window to see if he had any wizarding ability. This suggests that the moral compass of wizards differs a bit from that of Muggles. Maybe some of what we consider abuse isn't considered abuse by wizards because it doesn't really cause any harm to wizarding children. Alla: Yes, I evaluate the "abuse" issue by our, "muggle" standards. :o) Personally I believe that even though wizard children are more prone to physical injuries, JKR did not drastically change the criteria of abuse as though she is writing about alien race. Hence her statement in the interview that Harry is abused ( the one where she talks about Dudley being just as abused as Harry), but that is of course just my personal belief. If JKR indeed is writing about the world, where what was done to Harry is considered to be OK, I don't think I like the morals of that world that much. Meltowne Second, we must ask how much Dumbledore really knew about the abuse. He knew they weren't very friendly, and didn't like Harry, but did Arabella Figg know that he lived in the cupboard under the stair? She babysat on Dudley's birthday each year, but I doubt she knew much about what happened inside the house. Even she said she couldn't risk being too nice, lest the Dursley find someone else (presumably who would be even worse) to watch him. Alla: Someone in Hogwarts surely knew about Harry's living conditions. "Yet here it was, a letter addressed so plainly there could be no mistake: Mr.H.Potter The Cupboard Under the Stairs 4 Privet Drive Litle Whinging Surrey" - PS/SS, p.34 Just my opinion, Alla From kking0731 at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 05:06:28 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:06:28 -0000 Subject: Prince/Hans/Salazar/Apparation/Christmas/Hermione/Wand/MuggleClothes/Abuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126348 Snow wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/126017 : << her reasons for not sending him to Durmstrang, as far as her son and husband are concerned, were that it was too far. What is too far away for a witch who can apparate or use floo powder, sounds like a lame excuse if I ever heard one >> Catlady replied: QUIDDITCH THROUGH THE AGES says that Apparation is more dangerous the longer the distance covered and only the most talented mages try to Apparate across entire continents. It says that wizards used ships to cross oceans until a broomstick capable of flying so long a distance was invented. I think JKR views Apparation and Floo as a great deal more limited than us readers do, and never thought of Steve bboyminn's plan of Apparating across the continent by a series of short Apparations from city to city. Snow again: I can agree with you about the apparation point when it becomes a long distance, but Durmstrang wouldn't be that far from the UK would it, something on the order of east coast to west coast of the U.S.? The main point of my post was that there were other methods that could be used for communication besides apparation between Draco and Narcissa if Narcissa would have really wanted Draco to attend Durmstrang as the school of choice. Since Narcissa chose this lame excuse, of Durmstrang being too far, for her reasoning behind her apprehension for Draco to attend Durmstrang, I would suspect that she had an alternative reasoning. Remember they (the Malfoy's) are of the dark arts side of the spectrum per se and would know of many ways of communication. I mean if the good side has two-way mirrors for communication and the like, wouldn't the dark side have at the very least the equivalent? Narcissa could have found many ways in which to communicate with Draco if he had attended Durmstrang but she insisted that Draco did not attend Durmstrang because it was just too far, can you really rationalize that as an excuse with all of the wizarding resources that they have available for communication? Snow From stix4141 at hotmail.com Sun Mar 20 06:00:55 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:00:55 -0000 Subject: Draco the HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126349 Given that JKR has said we would be very surprised about the identity of the Half-Blood Prince, has anyone considered that it might be Draco Malfoy? Not that I have any canon to support this, but it might be a great vehicle for Draco's rejection by the Death Eaters, whom he admires so much. I realize, of course, that this is very unlikely given how much resemblance there is between Draco and Lucius; but it goes well with the idea that Draco's own hubris will ultimately be his undoing. Maybe I just like the idea of seeing the look on Malfoy's face when he finds out he's not as pure-blood as he thought. Any other far-out suggestions? - stickbook From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 08:20:22 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:20:22 -0000 Subject: OT: Facing a Stalemate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126350 I'm not a moderator or a list-elf here, so I'm certain that I am over stepping my authority. If that is true then the Administrators can feel free to delete this message, and send me a stern Howler; a Howler which I will humbly accept. That said, it has come to my attention (indirectly) that this might be a good time to remind people that a majority of the debates and discussion here in this group are going to end in a Stalemate. More importantly, when that occurs, we all need to recognise it, and move on. Opinions are like noses, everybody gets one, and nobody's is any better than anyone elses (noses and opinions). We ponder, we speculate, we expound, we pontificate, we /believe/, but we do not KNOW if Lupin is Ever-So-Evil or Ever-So-Nice (just an illustration, don't really care). Once each side has stated their case, then re-stated, illustrated, clarified, documented, counter opposition, and re-clarified their position, and the discussion has decended into 'yes he is' - 'no he isn't'; it's time to step back. When it becomes clear that each side is entrenched and unwavering in their belief, that is definitely NOT the time to shift to personal attacks, either on the person or on their opinion. No, indeed, that is the time to shrug your shoulders and walk away. Feel free to think what you will, but be careful what you say. Remember, we are all friends here, bonded by a common interest, and the world will not end if someone doesn't accept your belief that Lupin is or isn't evil (again, just for illustration; don't really care). Each game, each discussion, does NOT have to end in a WIN. When you reach a Stalemate, shake your opponents hand, clear the chess pieces, and move on to the next game. Remember, someday you may need a friend, but you will /never/ need enemies. Hope I'm not in really deep trouble for this. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 09:14:36 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 09:14:36 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma - Protections and Perspectives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > > Steve (bboyminn) said: (and in my opinion, said well) > > To the Dursley's treatment of Harry. I will again remind people > > that Harry treatment is only out of order by today's very liberal > > standards. I must remind you all that caning (whipping) was only > > removed from UK schools in mid 1980's (Shaun...exact date?), and > > to some extent physical punishment still exists in certain school > > today in the US, the UK, and I assume many other countries. > Ginger: > Steve, you hit on something that has been on my brain since the last > time this subject was on screen. I think you are right on target. > > My question is: At what point would DD have intervened, if this was > an option? I'm still undecided as to whether or not it was, but for > the sake of arguement, let's say it was. > > DD is 150 years old, give or take. So at the time Harry was placed > with the Dursleys, DD was 140ish. Unless my math is off (could be), > this means DD was born circa 1840. If he had children, he would > have raised them around 1860 to 1900, possibly even up to 1950. I > am giving him a broad range due to WW life expectancy. > > ...edited... > > Back to DD. If he was raised in this era, by these standards, the > Dursleys must not have looked like much of a threat to him. > Comparatively speaking. But it is not a light comparison. Were the > hindquarters of children in the 1800's any less delicate than those > in the 1900's? Well, maybe after a few strappings. ;o) > > ...edited... > > So where would have been DD's "cut off point"? ... > > ...edited... > > So what it comes down to, if DD could have intervened, is at what > point he would have done so. Given the life experience and mindset > of those typical of his generation, rather than imposing those that > have come about very recently (in the grand scheme of things), what > would led him to intervene? > > > .... I can not say that, knowing what we know, I would have > intervened. As almost everyone has said, we don't know enough at > this point. > > As always, unless I am referring to actual canon, these are my > opinions and my take on the subject. Others may agree or disagree as > they see fit. > > Ginger, who wishes she could slap the $4!+ out of some of the kids > she sees in the store where she works, as their parents obviously > haven't done so. Nasty, bratty, thieving little monsters. bboyminn: Yes, yes, yes, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. My point in making reference to historical standards, as well as other cultures, and other countries, is to point out that our modern day very liberal standards, is not likely the standard that Dumbledore is using. Dumbledore is a man with a very broad out look on history, because he has lived a substantial amount of it. His opinions are less likely to change with ever-changing social trends. OK, so far all I've said is I agree with myself and with Ginger, to redeem myself from this List trangression, I do have one more point to add. Dumbledore is a magical being, more than anything that substantially alters his standard. Wizards are very resilient. Neville was drop on his head from a (presumably) second story window and lived to joke about it. In addition, the other wizards he told this incident to, got the joke and laugh along with him. Given Harry confrontations with Voldemort and given his Quidditch accidents, it seems fair to say the wizards are physically resilient. But given the many psychological tramas Harry has endure, only to come out of it in very good shape; all things considered, it seems fair to say the wizards are also psychologically resilient. I can't say that with any authoritity, because I have limited information. Dumbledore has thousands of years of documented wizard history combined with 150 years of his own personal experience to draw on. Not to mention, a decade or two as headmaster of a school. I think he is a better judge than I. Because we can't really measure a fair standard from Dumbledore's perspective, the best we can do with our limited knowledge is comment on the NATURE of the Dursley's treatment of Harry. I think we can agree that the nature of their treatment of him was /abusive/. To me, /abusive/ is word that covers a broader spectrum, and I feel much more comfortable with it. Admittedly, this has a lot to do with my personal reaction to discussion of Abuse (note the capital 'A'), and with my own view of the broader context of /abusive/. That's why I'm trying to promote the postion that we never will agree on whether Harry was Abused, because that hinges on a variable and personal definition of 'abuse'. But, I've yet to hear anyone argue against the idea that the /nature/ of the Dursley's treatment of Harry sometimes fell into the context of /abusive/. Part of my point, is that agruing /abuse/ is a no win argument. It can't be determined with certainty. Yes, YOU personally can be certain, but you can never raise a consensus of certainty on Abuse. But I think we can reach a high consensus on the /abusive nature/ of Harry's treatment. That's all I'm trying to say. Steve/bboyminn From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Mar 20 14:27:16 2005 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:27:16 -0000 Subject: Inside Bella was Re: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126352 Tonks: > > > She seems to be a strong, heartless woman. > >snip snip< > > Anyway how can a person be strong, unyielding, cruel and > loving it one minute, and the next be a sniveling, whimpering > being groveling at the feet of LV? I just don't get it. < > Pippin: > She's not a woman at all, really. She's an overgrown child. JKR > symbolizes this by having her use that baby voice. Other people > are her toys, to be broken if it pleases her. LV is her substitute > parent, whom she's desperate to please. > Marianne: I have the same puzzlement Tonks does, not only with regard to Bellatrix, but to all the rest of the DEs. Obviously they agree with Voldemort, or are scared to death of him, or feel that by following him they will get what they want - power, position, a chance to lord over people who may be smarter or more skilled than they are, but who aren't pureblood, or whatever. Still, all this bowing and scraping to the Lord and Master, no matter how powerful Vmort is, is not something I get, either. I'm on the fence about Pippin's analysis. If Bellatrix is really caught in this sort of immaturity, even aside from her cruelty, what sort of history did she have to cause that? Was she always a spoiled, little rich bitch, with a mile-wide streak of cruelty, who got whatever she wanted all her life, demanding expensive toys and the latest fashion, then somehow wrecking them and demanding more? Did Voldemort realize she was a powerful witch, and that he could manipulate her power and cruelty to his own ends? I wonder too how much of a role Azkaban has played in making her what we see in OoP. Are we seeing her as she always was, meaning that the Dementors had no effect on her, or are we seeing someone who has survived that hell-hole, but who is not unscathed by it? I wouldn't think anyone can emerge from Azkaban whole, and, as JKR describes Sirius as being somewhat unbalanced by his imprisonment, I can't imagine that Bellatrix has not also suffered some mental damage. Marianne From ryokas at hotmail.com Sun Mar 20 15:34:42 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:34:42 -0000 Subject: Draco the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126353 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stickbook41" wrote: > Any other far-out suggestions? > > - stickbook As you specifically asked: In response to, and (as a general supporter of ANTITHESIS) hamfisted parody of, all the claims that we can deduce who the HBP is from the few suggestions that we'll learn more about this-and-that I've taken up the opinion that the Half-Blood Prince is none other than Lily Potter. ...What? My reasoning: - It's been stated that we'll be very surprised at the character's identity. - While it initially may seem impossible, there's the possibility of wordplay, and in any case some of the stranger brands of magic could no doubt make the option feasible. - JKR's shown her love of throwing curveballs. - It's not any less workable than the theory that Dumbledore is the HBP as he's on the cover, or that Snape is the HBP as there'll be more background on him. - I think it's funny. Kizor From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 16:37:42 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:37:42 -0000 Subject: Inside Bella was Re: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126354 Pippin: She's not a woman at all, really. She's an overgrown child. JKR symbolizes this by having her use that baby voice. Other people are her toys, to be broken if it pleases her. LV is her substitute parent, whom she's desperate to please. Marianne: I'm on the fence about Pippin's analysis. If Bellatrix is really caught in this sort of immaturity, even aside from her cruelty, what sort of history did she have to cause that? Was she always a spoiled, little rich bitch, with a mile-wide streak of cruelty, who got whatever she wanted all her life, demanding expensive toys and the latest fashion, then somehow wrecking them and demanding more? Did Voldemort realize she was a powerful witch, and that he could manipulate her power and cruelty to his own ends? I wonder too how much of a role Azkaban has played in making her what we see in OoP. I wouldn't think anyone can emerge from Azkaban whole, and, as JKR describes Sirius as being somewhat unbalanced by his imprisonment, I can't imagine that Bellatrix has not also suffered some mental damage. Alla: On the level of sympathy or empathy with the character, I really have no interest in Bella, but on the intelectual level of analysing the text, I do wonder what made her as crazy as she is. In light of all that I am again wondering when Voldemort started recruiting and whether Bella took the Dark mark while she was still in school or just out of school. As to her upbringing, I tend to think that it is a possibility that she had a cruel streak since she was a child, but that is just speculation in light of general look at Black family. Nevertheless, Andromeda managed to get away, Sirius got away so it is not a given that Black family produced only crazy pureblood fanatics. I don't know. Could it be that Bella's husband influenced her thinking that much? And of course I am quite positive that even if she was crazy before Azkaban, she got crasier there. JMO, Alla From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 16:55:12 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:55:12 -0000 Subject: Child Abusers (was) DD's dilemma In-Reply-To: <20050318215016.14030.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126355 Magda Grantwich wrote: > The Dursleys weren't child abusers. If the police discovered a couple who put bars on the windows of a 12 year old boys room then locked the door and kept him in 24/7 and the only food he got was a can of cold soup shoved through a cat flap in the door that he must share with his pet who is also locked up then I rather think that couple would go to jail for a very long time. Eggplant From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 17:03:11 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:03:11 -0000 Subject: Draco the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126356 stickbook41 ------------ Given that JKR has said we would be very surprised about the identity of the Half-Blood Prince, has anyone considered that it might be Draco Malfoy? Not that I have any canon to support this, but it might be a great vehicle for Draco's rejection by the Death Eaters, whom he admires so much. I realize, of course, that this is very unlikely given how much resemblance there is between Draco and Lucius; but it goes well with the idea that Draco's own hubris will ultimately be his undoing. Maybe I just like the idea of seeing the look on Malfoy's face when he finds out he's not as pure-blood as he thought. Any other far-out suggestions? tinglinger ---------- May not be as far out as you think ..... there was a thread started at HPFGU 114157 and continuing through 114199, 114230, 114268, among others that present both sides of the argument backed by canon. Arguments from either side can't be ruled out, though one will clearly be wrong in the end. That's what makes for a good dialogue. tinglinger who has created the Yahoo Group potterplots to present canon-backed theories. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From editor at texas.net Sun Mar 20 18:05:11 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:05:11 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Facing a Stalemate References: Message-ID: <002301c52d77$5d0fc580$4859aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 126357 Steve, everyone-- 1. It is not incumbent upon anyone to be on the admin team to speak good sense. 2. Steve's right. 3. The art of this list lies in knowing when and how to cease debate and accept alternative interpretations and viewpoints. That said, while I applaud Steve for posting this reminder (for I have done similar things in the past)-- Further discussion of the subject matter of this Post O'Good Sense (i.e., "Yes! How do we make a rule for that?" "You goober, you can't legislate good sense!" etc.) probably should be on Feedback or OT Chatter. Thanks, Steve. ~Amanda From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Mar 20 18:32:18 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:32:18 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma - Protections and Perspectives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126358 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > My question is: At what point would DD have intervened, if this was an option? I'm still undecided as to whether or not it was, but for the sake of arguement, let's say it was. > Pippin: Dumbledore sends Hagrid to get Harry off the island, and he sends the Howler in OOP when he fears that Harry may be thrown out of the house. On the other hand locking a child in a cupboard is abusive and illegal but it isn't life-threatening, and neither is having to live on soup for a couple of days. I think we can say that Dumbledore intervenes when Harry is in mortal danger. Presumably Dumbledore has some sort of magical device similar to the Weasley clock that tells him when that is the case. That would also explain why the DE's were so reluctant to use lethal force when ambushing Harry and co at the Ministry. They didn't want to set off any alarm bells. I guess it's hard to imagine that anyone who cares about a child's psychological well-being would be willing to risk it in order to secure his safety, but as I've pointed out, there are analogous situations in real life. And I think JKR was well aware of this. After all, she put her own infant child in physical danger in order to escape an intolerable situation in Portugal. She must have wondered many times, as Harry's story took shape in her mind and she worried about where Jessica's next meal would come from, whether she had done the right thing, and what could have conceivably persuaded her to choose otherwise. I think Dumbledore (and JKR) knew the risk he was taking, especially since it reappears in OOP, not only for Harry but for Sirius. I think Dumbledore mentioned the risk that celebrity might pose in the WW because he he had to steel himself for his decision, which shows that he did care. He was reminding himself that Harry's psychological well-being could not be assured, even if he were placed with a kind loving family. Fame and fortune and the envy that come with them have destroyed many a happy home -- see Othello. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 18:31:56 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:31:56 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry and DE Children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126359 Saieditor wrote: A larger part of my public morality reflection focuses on Snape and his treatment of Harry. It is my contention that Snape is continuing a feud or quarrel with the dead through a child of the dead. This in any dispensation is the stuff of meaness and anti social personality. A most confusing man, Snape. Alla: Sorry for not replying to your post earlier. I absolutely agree with you that Snape continues his quarrel with a dead man through his son. Saieditor: Recently re-reading OOP, I see that Snape does not admit feeling and emotion as a means of motivation, defense nor behaviour. (see Occulmency lessons) Snape only values the supression of feeling and emotion. He is an extraordinarily complex character, of mixed loyalties and perverse when it suits him, and self protective when it suits him. For example, would he continue to treat Harry's Potions lessons and samples thus presented as he does in front of McGonagall or Dumbledore? I think not; he would put on a face and avoid detection of his vendetta with James Potter through Harry. IF this is true, then we must assume that beneath the layers of ice and hostility, history and loyalties, there is a moral faculty within Snape which is yet to emerge. I would point to the Veritaserum episode in Umbridge's Office as an example of Snape's loyalty to the Order of Phoenix, rather than Snape deflecting Umbridge away from Harry's knowledge for reasons of immoral behaviour by a [Head Teacher] witch or wizard. Alla: Hmmm. I go back and forth on whether Snape is a complex character or not. For the most part I tend to agree with Nora Renka - that Snape seems to be complex because we don't know the motivations behind his actions. When his motivations will be revealed, I believe that much of his complexity will dissappear. (I hope I did not change Nora's argument) I was intrigued by your question whether Snape will treat Harry the same in front of Minerva or Albus. I assume you mean if they were to sit in on one of his lessons, right? Some kind of inspection? Actually, I will give Snape more points if he WILL indeed treat Harry the same, because then at least I will know that he is honest in not being able to distinguish between two Potters. If he starts treating Harry nicely in front of Albus, I can only call him a hyppocrite, who is scared enough of his boss to stop the bullying in front of him, but continues doing so when nobody is there to protect he students. And yes, for the most part I agree that Snape is loyal to the Light. JMO, Alla. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 18:59:48 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:59:48 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma - Protections and Perspectives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126360 > Pippin: I guess it's hard to imagine that anyone who cares about a child's psychological well-being would be willing to risk it in order to secure his safety, but as I've pointed out, there are analogous situations in real life. And I think JKR was well aware of this. After all, she put her own infant child in physical danger in order to escape an intolerable situation in Portugal. She must have wondered many times, as Harry's story took shape in her mind and she worried about where Jessica's next meal would come from, whether she had done the right thing, and what could have conceivably persuaded her to choose otherwise. Alla: It is my speculation, but I believe that JKR was removing her child from potentially abusive situation ( if her husband was abusive to her, which again is my speculation only, it was only a matter of time before he will start abusing a child. Speaking from experience of working with domestic violence survivors). Thus she was choosing child psychological well-being over direct physical safety, wasn't she? Actually, I would say she was saving her daughter from both of those situations and she was simply caring less about financial well-fare. Again, I don't even know that her husband was abusive, so I should probably stop my speculation. I am wondering about something else though - I remember some time ago somebody remarked that not paying much attention to psychological well-being of Harry and many others could simply be due to the fact that JKR endured many tough times in her life and emerged the winner. Maybe her philosophy is that anybody could beat whatever life throws at them by themselves, no outside help needed and she applies that philosophy to her characters, Harry in particular, but definitely not only him. Just speculating, Alla. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 20:14:45 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:14:45 -0000 Subject: Inside Bella was Re: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126361 > Alla: > > On the level of sympathy or empathy with the character, I really > have no interest in Bella, but on the intelectual level of analysing > the text, I do wonder what made her as crazy as she is. > a_svirn: Maybe it's a trait that runs in the family? Look at Sirius' mother, for instance. She has never been in Azakabane yet she's definitely less than sane. I wonder if the Black family has overdone this pure- blood thing a bit. Inbreeding can bring dangerous consequences about. And come to think of it, Sirius' mother was screeching something about the "house of her fathers'. Yet, Grimauld 12 seems to be the Black's family house. Can it be that Mrs and Mr Black had common ancestors? Probably in more than one generation? Sirius did say something about his parents' conviction that being Black was like being royalty. If Blacks have been practicing inside marriages for a few centuries in a row there is nothing surprising if they turn up mad once in a while. a_svirn From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 20 21:13:56 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:13:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Ronald Bilius Weasley Message-ID: <20050320211356.53773.qmail@web25101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126362 As we climb up the spinal column we meet a character for the second time. When first I came across this idea I was flabbergasted. How is this possible? How can a character personify two totally different things, one abstract and one concrete? Long ago in this character discussion I told you that Ron is the John the Harbinger figure of the gospel, the self-sacrificing earthly personality who says, "After me comes one who is greater than I". Yet now I'm saying Ron is the spleen chakra, connected to the pancreas. But upon reflection, I came across the following facts: Ron had a pet rat who personified the "blood-ego", or "desire-ego", the survivor and panic merchant who will go to any lengths to preserve the physical body. This astral consciousness-centre is situated in the solar plexus, in the spleen-liver system. See my post on Peter Pettigrew, alias Scabbers. Ron is very fond of food. The books often mention his wonderful appetite and how he likes to stuff his mouth with food. He especially likes sweet things. Remember the conversation with Hermione about sugar quills? The pancreas produces digestive juices, and an internal secretion which digests sugar! And the stomach actually rests on the pancreas. His middle name is Bilius. Bilious means feeling sick from an imbalance of bile, which is produced by the liver. This double function Ron has actually works! Ron personifies the abstract earthly personality who sacrifices himself for the new soul, as Ron shows in the chess game in book 1, but he also personifies the spleen chakra and the pancreas, as part of the Weasley Family of chakras and endocrine glands. The superhuman intelligence with which Harry Potter is written is rising to ever greater heights in my estimation. I feel totally overwhelmed by the sheer dazzling perfect complexity of it all. Ron: the mortal earthly personality which devotes itself to the New Soul and will thus sacrifice itself in the alchemical wedding for the King and Queen. Ron will enter eternity by dissolving in the alchemical processes and rising again as part of the Eternal Son of God. Ron: the high priest of the biological temple. Ronald Bilius Weasley: the spleen chakra, the pancreas and the solar plexus, with his pet, the biological ego, situated in the spleen-liver system. As the candidate goes the Path of Alchemical Liberation he loses his biological ego, when Ron loses Scabbers. You may be interested to know, by the way, that the spleen chakra actually absorbs solar energy, which I should think is the reason the plexus it's linked to is called the solar plexus. None of the chakras die during the process of liberation, so we can feel safe that Jo won't kill Ron off. However, in his role as John the Baptist, who was beheaded, I feel sure Ron will make a tremendous act of self-sacrifice for Harry and Hermione. I'd also like to remind you, and especially tell new members, about the "pricking of my thumbs" when I see the trio's initials, whose order Jo never varies: H.R.H.= His Royal Highness. And their "magical blood": Harry - blood, Ron - full blood, Hermione no magical blood. Together: 1 out of 3. The Half Blood Prince? The mind boggles. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 19 19:53:13 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:53:13 -0000 Subject: DD's Dilemma Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126363 I wonder how much exactly DD knew about Harry's treatment at the Dursleys. In the discussion chapter of OOTP, when DD is talking to Harry about the first year, he says, "you arrived at Hogwarts, neither as happy nor as well nourished as I would have liked, perhaps, yet alive and healthy. You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the circumstances. Thus far, my plan was working well." It sounds like DD was curious and pleased to find out that Harry was okay, if a little appalled at how poorly he was dressed and at how unhappy and skinny Harry was. It sounds like this was the first time DD had personally seen Harry, though he may have gotten reports from Mrs. Figg and whoever or whatever. I wonder if by some means DD could tell that Harry was alive and his room was "under the stairs", but didn't quite know the day to day conversations and what went on there. And Mrs. Figg and some of the others seem odd enough that I can see them saying, 'Harry is okay, a little solemn, but otherwise fine.' Since the WW never seem to be clued in on what proper Muggle dress is, maybe they thought Dudley's old clothes were just fine. Certainly DD must have known that the Dursleys would be less than ecstatic to have Harry. I myself would absolutely love to see what was in that first letter addressed to the Dursleys. Certainly Petunia at least had an understanding with DD about something in the arrangement that she didn't wholely share with Vernon. I'm sure we will find out something about Petunia in the last books that will clarify her knowledge and position for us. I've also wondered if the Dursleys knew they were being abusive. They certainly spoiled Dudley horribly and ignored Harry, but maybe this was based on their own instincts and they were not totally aware of how things appeared from Harry's point of view. They certainly seem very shallow and definitely not deep thinkers. I can almost hear them saying. "Dudley's old clothes are still in good shape, Harry should be happy to have them. Harry was a room here and we provide his meals and buy his glasses send him to school with Dudley and all. He's just fine, but just look at our Dudley wudley. Isn't he special. He's just the finest and best boy we know." Some children would think it somewhat cool to have a neat little room under the stairs, Harry was small any way, so he fit just fine. Remember Vernon telling him in SS that Harry was getting too big for the cupboard under the stairs and that's why they were going to give him Dudleys second bedroom. I think the Dursleys were so extremely terrified of "MAGIC" that even looking at Harry scared them to death. They seemed to think of him more as a bomb that might go off and blow there house up any minute. I don't know how much they knew about James and Lilys deaths, but enought probably to terrify them. Bottom line, I don't think DD knew ALL the details of Harry's life at the Dursleys and I think the Dursleys were so terrified of Harry and his MAGIC and so doting of Dudley, they just didn't get it. "bbkkyy55" From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 00:03:18 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:03:18 -0000 Subject: Wizard Government Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126364 Steve wrote: > I believe this is what will happen to Fudge, people will be so outraged at his incompetence, that the Wizengamot will have no choice but to dismiss him. When he resigns, the bulk of his supportive adminstration (Umbridge) will resign with him. I think all or nearly all department heads will stay, but those higher up and closer to Fudge will leave with him.< Bonnie: I wonder if Percy will lose his job too. This is going to be very humiliating for him, isn't it? It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out for the Weasleys. From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Sun Mar 20 05:01:05 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:01:05 -0000 Subject: juvenile!Bella was Inside Bella was Re: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126365 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" > wrote: > > > She seems to be a strong, heartless woman. > >snip snip< > > Anyway how can a person be strong, unyielding, cruel and > loving it one minute, and the next be a sniveling, whimpering > being groveling at the feet of LV? I just don't get it. < > > Pippin: > She's not a woman at all, really. She's an overgrown child. JKR > symbolizes this by having her use that baby voice. Other people > are her toys, to be broken if it pleases her. LV is her substitute > parent, whom she's desperate to please. > John: Interesting point. Compare and contrast Bella with Sirius, whose 'spell' in Azkaban appeared to arrest his maturely development (in turn, contrast him with Lupin). We shouldn't discount the effect that such a large chunk (14-15 years?)out of one's `life' would have on an individual. Particularly when it's that period of one's life applying to Sirius & Bella. The real question for me concerns the fear and mingled awe Voldy seems to invoke; he's done NOTHING so far to merit people coming over all faint/weakening at the knees/falling off their chair at the mere mention of his name. OK, he's killed/ordered the killing of a few people here and there, but what about the effect he has on his followers? They wouldn't be *particularly* impressed with him, I wouldn't think, after a long line of bungled attempts to kill a teenage boy. He must have done *something* at one point to woo them all. John, getting off the topic I know. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 21:46:13 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:46:13 -0000 Subject: DE's Dilemma... (was: DD's dilemma ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126366 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Pippin: > > ...edited.. > > That would also explain why the DE's were so reluctant to use > lethal force when ambushing Harry and co at the Ministry. They > didn't want to set off any alarm bells. > > ....edited... > > Pippin bboyminn: Sorry, I'm taking a complete change of direction here. My new direction is related to comments (much) farther up in this thread, but not necessarily to the more immediate subject of discussion. Pippin's statement reminded me of these earlier comments and brought up some new ideas. In discussion of the protection on Harry at the Dursley's someone wonder why the DE's never tried to attack Harry. Was he really that hard to find? Certainly, as we see from Bellatrix actions, there were fanatically eager DE's around after Voldemort's apparent defeat, why no attempts at vengeance and retribution? Let's look at how Voldemort was vanquish oh so many years ago. The darkest most powerful wizard in a century (maybe in history) was defeated by an infant; a wandless, helpless, seeming defenseless infant (OK, maybe toddler). I think that creates a HUGE element of doubt in the DE's minds. Are any of them actually going to have the courage to attempt to do, what in their eyes, the greatest wizard of all time could not do? Voldemort has twice since his return attempted to AK (killing curse) Harry (graveyard and Ministry Atrium). But I really have to believe that in the back of his mind, Voldemort has some doubt as to the wisdom and safety of that action. In his rebirth, he MAY (emphasis on 'may') have overcome Harry's protection, or he may have only overcome one small aspect of it. In Dumbledore's end of book speech (GoF), he says that Harry still has that protection. So, Voldemort in the moment, may have been angry and arrogant enough to truly attempt to kill Harry, but I'm sure he did so with a definite element of uncertainty gnawing at him. Now to the DE's, it seems obvious that they were going to kill Harry and friends after they got the Prophecy, but I see that conversation going something like this.... Lucius: You have interferred with the Dark Lord once too often Potter, but in me you have met your match, and now you will meet your death. Avery... kill him. Avery: What...? Whoa... wait... what... me... why me? You kill him. Lucius: (furious and frustrated) Avery! I'm in charge, I order you to kill him! Avery: (sarcastic) Oh very brave of you. Screw that, I'm not getting vaporized. You're in charge, you kill him. Lucius:(big gulp then smarmy) Ah... Bella. Dear sweet Bellatrix, you are certainly the Dark Lord's most loyal servant, certainly you must want to perform this service for him. Bellatrix: (suddenly not so confident) Well I... well I... umm... Well, I'll torture him for you, more than happy to do that. But kill him... Well... (voice trails off) Lucius: Jugson! Dolohov! Somebody kill him! That's an order. Jugson: (thoughfully) Maybe if we don't use a wand. We could stab him. Anybody go a knife? Dolohov: We could throw him off the roof. Of course, that might not kill him. As the DE's form a circle and begin to debate various alternate methods of killing Harry, Harry and friends slowly tiptoe away and make their escape. OK, I was having a little fun there, but I think I've illustrated a very valid point. Given the mystery of how a little wandless baby so easily defeated (in their opinion) the darkest most powerful wizard of all time, I have to believe that anyone and everyone is filled with real doubt as to IF and HOW Harry can even be killed. And IF and WHEN someone attempts that feat, they would much prefer that it was someone other than themselves. Certainly, that would be strong incentive for the DE to avoid Harry at all cost. Note that the ever-so-fanatic Bellatrix left Harry alone and went after the Longbottoms, two powerful experience Aurors. So, while I think there was a real potential danger to Harry, I also think friend and foe alike have real doubts as to IF and HOW Harry can be killed. And I further think that there isn't anyone including Voldemort that is too eager to be the first one to try. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 22:09:31 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:09:31 -0000 Subject: Inside Bella was Re: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126367 I appreciate all who have responded to my question. I am still trying to understand how someone like Bella could bring herself to grovel at the foot of LV. I understand the idea that was presented that she is really a child mentally, but I am not so sure of that. If she is as nasty as LV, which I think she is, can you imagine LV groveling at someone's feet? Those 2 things just don't seem to fit together. Where are all the DE on this list? I know you are out there. Explain to me what a cruel person thinks. How can people do those things? I can understand a crime of passion, but I can't understand cruelty for the fun of it. Help me understand Bella, so I can pretend to be her. I want to find my *dark side*. ;-) Thanks. Tonks From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 22:36:21 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:36:21 -0000 Subject: Inside Bella was Re: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126368 "Tonks" wrote: > > I appreciate all who have responded to my question. I am still > trying to understand how someone like Bella could bring herself to > grovel at the foot of LV. I understand the idea that was presented > that she is really a child mentally, but I am not so sure of that. a_svirn: I am not sure about that too. Besides, even if she is, she is a rather crazy child. Which bring us back to the same question: why? > If she is as nasty as LV, which I think she is, can you imagine LV > groveling at someone's feet? Those 2 things just don't seem to fit > together. > a_svirn: I really don't see why nastiness and grovelling should be mutually exclusive. She is a fanatic, and that being the case she is liable to worshiping LV complete with grovelling at his feet, kissing the hem of his robe and so on. Personally, I am much more puzzled by Lucius. He certainly NOT a fanatic, his ambition probably rivals that of LV and his social standing is (or at the very least was) infinitely superior. So why on earth would he pledge his loyalty to a dangerous power-hungry half-blood, who expects him to grovel and call him "Master"?! There is nothing to be gained from such an arrangement for Lucius and everything to loose. a_svirn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 20 23:14:36 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:14:36 -0000 Subject: Inside Bella - Social & Psychological Motivation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > I appreciate all who have responded to my question. I am still > trying to understand how someone like Bella could bring herself to > grovel at the foot of LV. > ... edited ... > > Explain to me what a cruel person thinks. How can people do those > things? ...I can't understand cruelty for the fun of it. Help me > understand Bella, so I can pretend to be her. I want to find my > *dark side*. ;-) Thanks. > > Tonks bboyminn: You understand that in seeking to discuss and understand this kind of cruelty, you are opening the door to the discussion of some pretty unpleasant aspect of human behavior and psychology. So, don't ask to see the dark side unless you are willing to face it. Several aspects come into play in any 'Bella'-like personality. The first aspect is POWER. It is said the rape is not a sexual act, but an act of power. The thrill is in having power over and degrading and deminishing that other person. It's a case of the old, lifting yourself up, by pushing other people down. This is very common in people who either feel or fear their own inferiority, whether it be rapist, oppressive bosses, or loud obnoxious kids at the mall. Each struggles for a sense of superiority while fighting against a sense of inferiority. Other cruel people are just sociopaths, they have no sense of empathy for other people. Without this sense of empathy, people are reduced to simply object for your amusement. Back to a sense of superiority, some people no matter how rich they are, whether they are suburban teenagers, wealthy tycoons, or 'old money' families, they have an ingrained sense of being put upon. That somehow they are the underdog and that the whole world is conspiring against them, which beings on a sense of insecurity. Which is a view of themselves that their psyche absolutely will not tolerate. They have a deeply ingrain, to their core, need to feel superior, but the only way they can do it, is by convincing themselves that all other people are beneath them. That's why the jocks pick on the nerds; they elevate themselves to the top of the high school pecking order, by making sure that all other groups are kept on the bottom. The only thing that keeps Bellatrix from being just another person is her family's belief that they are the royalty of the wizard world. With this sense of priviledge and position, often comes a sense of lawlessness. A sense that they are a law unto themselves. That ordinary laws are for the ignorant and wretched masses. That those of great superiority needn't both with the mundane. One might ask, why does the bully bully? The answer is of course he does because he can. Even playground bullies have this false sense of superiority, and fear of not having it, that provokes them to prove again and again that they are superior, and can do as they damn well please. We can see the same thing his wealthy priviledge kids who get into trouble. They move through life with a self-preceived impunity, quite convinced that dad's money can buy them out of anything, even murder. Bella fits all these models. She has an unbearable need to show that she is all powerful. She has an unwavering belief in her own absolute superiority. She has an unwavering belief that she is so poweful as to be immune to any consequences for her actions. Now as to how such an egotistical megalomaniacal self-important person can bring themselves to bow down to Voldemort, while complicated, is not really that hard to understand. In a sense, Voldemort is not /a/ Lord (title), he is THE Lord (supreme being). His teaching, his beliefs, his rhetoric is the seat of all power. He is the being that represents himself as the ultimate in this school of superiority. It is he, in whose veins flows the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself; the key and most significant figure in all of wizarding history, whose own beliefs validate their own. And validation is the key. I used the following statement in an earlier thread in a different context, but it fit this thread and it's context perfectly, especially when referring to power-crazy, self-supierior, cruel tyrannical fanatics; "That which does not validate me is not valid". In a twisted sense, respect and even worships Voldemort because he is the source from which she achieve all validity. Bella is willing to bow down to Voldemort, because he is the source of all power. It is through him, that every bit of her own self-worth is validated. That and she really doesn't want him to kill or torture her. Sometimes you just have to acknowledge and accept that you've met someone who is even more crazy and fanatical than you are, and when you do, in your own insanity, you admire them for it. Anything here you can use? Steve/bboyminn From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 21 00:21:00 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:21:00 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma - Protections and Perspectives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126370 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > > > I am wondering about something else though - I remember some time ago > somebody remarked that not paying much attention to psychological > well-being of Harry and many others could simply be due to the fact > that JKR endured many tough times in her life and emerged the > winner. Maybe her philosophy is that anybody could beat whatever life > throws at them by themselves, no outside help needed and she applies > that philosophy to her characters, Harry in particular, but > definitely not only him. > > Just speculating, > > Alla. Hmmm. I don't know, Alla. First of all, IMO, if JKR thinks that she's dead wrong. But that is, of course, my experience matched against someone else's. However, more to the point, I really doubt JKR has much of a formal philosophy she's working from. Oh, she has opinions of course, and tendencies and beliefs. But I don't think they are mirrored in the books in any conscious way MOST of the time. Rather I think she is just trying to tell the story as she wants it to go. And frankly, I think she is often rather unaware of lots of these issues until and unless they are pointed out by another party. That often happens with authors. You get so wrapped up in the story you are trying to tell that you develop a kind of myopia. I don't know how many times I've written something and had someone come up to me and say "Why did you say so and so?" To which I answer "I said/implied/meant no such thing!" Yet when they show me the manuscript with passages marked I go "Oh, well I guess I DID say/imply that, didn't I?" I think lots of the issues we (we meaning fans) see in the books arise from this tendency. For instance the issue of the Slytherins. I think JKR just needed some people in the early books to be the villains. I doubt the whole issue of marking a quarter of children at Hogwarts as "evil" crossed her mind until it erupted in fandom. I think the issue of Veritaserum and Legilemency with regard to Sirius in Azkaban functioned the same way. Was JKR attempting to send a message about trust in authority or the application of technology to court cases? I doubt it. These were useful plot devices and in the haste and intensity of writing the books I don't think she even realized until afterwards that they cut against one of her major subplots. By not having psychological counseling at Hogwarts or in the WW is she sending a message about self-help vs professional/amateur counseling? I seriously doubt it. I think that in her intense focus on the storyline she just never thought about that issue. For what it's worth, stepping out of the canon for a moment and doing a little authorial analysis, I think Siriusly Snapey Susan is right in a comment she made to me off list recently. That is that JKR probably thought "OK, Harry at Dursleys, here's the reason, subplot closed, moving on." All the issues implied and imbedded in that subplot may well not have occurred to her until it was too late. This all goes along with what we have seen many times. JKR just isn't the best in the world when it comes to keeping track of implications and details. If it doesn't directly concern the storyline she has envisioned, she tends sometimes to slide over things, leaving all sorts of tangles and confusions and objections in the wake of her pen. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 21 00:41:20 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:41:20 -0000 Subject: DD's Dilemma In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126371 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bbkkyy55" wrote: > > Bottom line, I don't think DD knew ALL the details of Harry's life at > the Dursleys This is possible, although as Alla says the fact that the letter arrived addressed to Harry in the cupboard cuts against this. It is definitely an issue we need a LOT more detail on. We can only hope that JKR doesn't think she cleared everything up with DD's speech in OOTP. Lupinlore From dontask2much at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 02:02:26 2005 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (Charme) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:02:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Inside Bella - Social & Psychological Motivation References: Message-ID: <025701c52dba$088443e0$6501a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 126372 >Steve said: > Bella is willing to bow down to Voldemort, because he is the source of > all power. It is through him, that every bit of her own self-worth is > validated. That and she really doesn't want him to kill or torture > her. Sometimes you just have to acknowledge and accept that you've met > someone who is even more crazy and fanatical than you are, and when > you do, in your own insanity, you admire them for it. > > Anything here you can use? Charme: Liked your post, Steve. Your final paragraph is true in some sense, although I'd like to add some comments of my own, with your indulgence. :) >From philospohical perspective, I've tried to forget that Bellatrix is a woman and find some common ground within mythology and legend, but her damn predeliction for "baby talk" always throws me off. If I ignore that (and it's hard), then I start to feel she's bent towards zealotry, and even Nazism. In any of these ideologies, there is nearly *always* a leader, every fanatic respects someone who is more crazy and committed than everybody else. Doesn't matter if you're a male or female zealot, if you're not the leader, you're going to look up to the one who is or can teach you to be more powerful than you already are. She's committed to the idea of her own and others pureblood superiority (the *cause*, if you will) over halfbloods, Muggles and mudbloods, but not over Lord Voldemort. Another factor in my mind is the difference, and interaction, between Lucius Malfoy and Bellatrix in OoP during the conflict in the DoM . Lucius leads her (and the rest of the DE's), yet if you'll note, she doesn't harbor the same respect towards Lucius as she does Voldemort. Lucius is ambitious, logical, and determined, and Bellatrix is just chaotic and rash up until the "action" really heats up. This leads me to believe that Bellatrix is, for lack of a better phrase, a "warrior princess." In combat, she is filled with her own self worth, taunting and teasing those she duels with. She likes fighting, torture, cruelty (she says at much to Harry during their MoM interaction regarding the Cruciatus Curse) and the validation of herself in combat to support the *cause* and the desires of her mentor. It's almost similiar to the desire to fight for a cause bigger than oneself, only for an ammoral conviction rather than a moral one. Charme From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 02:30:08 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 02:30:08 -0000 Subject: Lucius' ambition. Was: Inside Bella was Re: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126373 A_svirn: Personally, I am much more puzzled by Lucius. He certainly NOT a fanatic, his ambition probably rivals that of LV and his social standing is (or at the very least was) infinitely superior. So why on earth would he pledge his loyalty to a dangerous power-hungry half-blood, who expects him to grovel and call him "Master"?! There is nothing to be gained from such an arrangement for Lucius and everything to loose. Alla: I think the general answer to your question about Lucius is simple enough ( IMO anyway). Lucius thinks that Voldemort can give him something that nobody else can and this SOMETHING is so valuable to Lucius that he is willing to abandon his pride and grovel at his feet. Now, my suspicion that this something is no less than immortality, as we had been told of Voldemort's pursuit of immortality, although we don't know much concrete information yet. Maybe he promised to share the potion or the formula or something like that with his most loyal DE. Of course I can be very off base. Maybe Lucius just feels that Voldemort will die soon and he as the most powerful will become next Dark Lord. Alla, who had been speculating way too much last couple of days, but does not want to stop yet. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 21 03:06:46 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 03:06:46 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126374 Lupinlore said: >>> For what it's worth, stepping out of the canon for a moment and doing a little authorial analysis, I think Siriusly Snapey Susan is right in a comment she made to me off list recently. That is that JKR probably thought "OK, Harry at Dursleys, here's the reason, subplot closed, moving on." All the issues implied and imbedded in that subplot may well not have occurred to her until it was too late. JKR just isn't the best in the world when it comes to keeping track of implications and details. If it doesn't directly concern the storyline she has envisioned, she tends sometimes to slide over things, leaving all sorts of tangles and confusions and objections in the wake of her pen.<<< SSSusan: Yep, I did say something along these lines offlist. To clarify a wee bit, I had said that I *can* see JKR thinking so fully that DD saw leaving Harry with the Dursleys as his only option, that she never gave all the rest of those issues we've talked about that much thought [not checking up on him; not going back & intervening over the years; not threatening the Dursleys a little more -- *if* in fact none of that happened]. (I also wrote this before I thought more fully about the possibility of a "return protection" offered by DD to Petunia. This has altered my thinking somewhat about DD's options.) My main point to Lupinlore really was intended to be that JKR may well have never anticipated the degree of analysis her books & decisions would undergo. She may have thought that her reasoning would be clear to the readers, whereas a lot of us (esp. her adult readers) are more inclined to question and critique. This is not a bad thing! But I do think there may well be situations where JKR believes her position is clearer than we feel it is. I'm wondering if DD's decision to leave Harry with the Dursleys isn't one of those situations where she'd be surprised to discover what a hullabaloo has arisen over it. On another matter, but still in this thread... bbkkyy55 wrote: > Bottom line, I don't think DD knew ALL the details of Harry's life > at the Dursleys Lupinlore replied: > This is possible, although as Alla says the fact that the letter > arrived addressed to Harry in the cupboard cuts against this. SSSusan: I've always assumed that the precise addressing of envelopes in the WW comes via some special magic of the owls, rather than of the sender. That somehow they are able to adjust the ink so that it matches the true location of the recipient. I've mentioned this before and haven't exactly been overwhelmed with support for the idea , so I may be in a big minority. But when Harry wrote to Sirius, he couldn't know the address, yet Hedwig found him. And didn't Pig know to find Ron while he was *on* the Hogwarts Express and moving? I know that's *finding* and not *addressing,* but couldn't those two be connected? Harry's letters in SS/PS kept changing as he & the Dursleys moved to new locations. Did the sender [McGonagall, I think?] actually know of these addy changes, or did the owls simply adjust the envelopes to reflect the reality? Siriusly Snapey Susan From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Mar 21 04:41:05 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 04:41:05 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126375 > SSSusan: > Yep, I did say something along these lines offlist. To clarify a > wee bit, I had said that I *can* see JKR thinking so fully that DD > saw leaving Harry with the Dursleys as his only option, that she > never gave all the rest of those issues we've talked about that much > thought [not checking up on him; not going back & intervening over > the years; not threatening the Dursleys a little more -- *if* in > fact none of that happened]. > > (I also wrote this before I thought more fully about the possibility > of a "return protection" offered by DD to Petunia. This has altered > my thinking somewhat about DD's options.) Jen: On another related thought: I try to imagine a story where Harry was raised a different way or where Dumbledore intervened or the Dursleys were different people. Most of the scenarios I run through my head pale in comparison to what JKR actually created. I personally don't care to read about how DD attempted to convert the Dursleys, or save Harry from their fiendish ways. It sacrifices the story for political correctness IMO. The idea of DD placing Harry with the Dursleys, then spending the next 11 years trying to make them act a certain way sounds like a social service case history, not a compelling, one-of-a-kind, fantasy-based, fictional story. Even if JKR did think through all the possible ramifications of her plot, and still decided to depict the story, Harry, DD and the Dursleys the way she did, I applaud her for that. She's created a moment in history as much as a ficitonal construct, and she's created nothing to be ashamed of, or to explain away or to correct for people who don't agree with her story. I can't say for sure, but if you removed the Dursleys from the story and had Harry raised with Wizards, or made the Dursleys different characters or even changed the scope of the DD character to more of an interventionist type, I think some of the magic would be lost. In the first scenario we wouldn't get to see Harry enter the magical world for one thing, as he'd already be there. That was the hook for me, the magic of the story--Harry got a one-of-a-kind oppoortunity to leave behind this totally disastrous life to be a *wizard*. Who can't relate to having someone appear and say, 'this isn't who you really are, let me show you the magical world you really belong to." In the second scenario, making the Dursleys different characters, well there's a bit of room there but nothing which is compelling for me personally. Say the Dursleys are exactly as they are and raise Harry as a 'pampered prince' like Dudley. OK. Maybe JKR could get away with making Harry the same character he his now, but that would be a stretch. Some people say it's unbelievable that Harry is just a regular guy after being raised by the Dursleys, but that's not unbelievable to me. As a social worker in RL I meet phenomenal people like that all the time. It would be more of a stretch to have Harry be the character he is after being raised like Dudley, IMO. One possibility would be to make the Dursleys basically loving-if- flawed parents like we all are, coaching Harry along, understanding and nurturing his magical skills when they appear. Treating him like a son, and welcoming his admission to Hogwarts with excitement and acceptance rather than fear and rage. Bleeech--that's a boring story IMO. The entire WW and the loving Dursleys behind him all the way to his ultimate defeat of the Dark Lord. Where's the magic in that? No, I love what JKR has done and see it as a package deal. Even though I spend my time deconstructing the story, ultimately what JKR said in an interview is the lens through which I view the HP series: "I sweated blood over that story to make it work, but it really came from my heart. Only later can you start analyzing it. But you can overanalyze, too. I had a woman tell me it was clear to her that Harry was so abused that he becomes schizophrenic, and that everything that happens from the point of the arrival of the letters about Hogswart is his own escape into a sort of torture-fantasy. I tried to be polite and say something like, 'Well, that would be one way of looking at it, I guess.' But I was kind of scared. One of the nicest things about writing for children is that you don't find them deconstructing novels. Either they like it or they don't like it. " (Book Links, 1999). Jen, who so loves Harry's story exactly as it is. From stix4141 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 21 05:13:35 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 05:13:35 -0000 Subject: Why does the WW fear Voldemort? (was: juvenile!Bella) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126376 John: > The real question for me concerns the fear and mingled awe Voldy > seems to invoke; he's done NOTHING so far to merit people coming > over all faint/weakening at the knees/falling off their chair at the > mere mention of his name. OK, he's killed/ordered the killing of a > few people here and there, but what about the effect he has on his > followers? They wouldn't be *particularly* impressed with him, I > wouldn't think, after a long line of bungled attempts to kill a > teenage boy. He must have done *something* at one point to woo them > all. stickbook: I had the same concern--that Voldemort was coming across as more a Charles Manson type than a Hitler. The only thing I can think of was that Voldemort did his most of his public damage in a relatively short amount of time. To many in the Wizarding World, he burst onto the scene quite suddenly, even though he had been secretly festering under the surface for many years (the Lexicon doesn't seem to have many details to support or refute). Also part of the shock was that so many witches and wizards seemed to agree with his beliefs. Maybe if the WW at large had been paying more attention they would have nipped Voldie in the bud; but this is the same community that believes that Harry survived only ONE Voldemort attack, and that is unwilling to believe he survived the additional four. In short, Voldemort was such a terror because he was such a surprise, not only because of his own horriic actions, but also because his "gift for spreading discord" was so great that not even the Wizarding authorities could muster enough force to stop him. Just a theory, of course :) stickbook From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Mon Mar 21 05:15:53 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:15:53 EST Subject: Emerald Snake Eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126377 Hi! Since HBP is due out in July, I decided to start a re-read of the books and I read something in CoS today that made me wonder. I'm quite sure that someone else has noticed this LONG be for me, but would like to know if anyone has any thoughts on the fact that the Serpents at the opening of the chamber had Emeralds for eyes. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Soon the distant noise of Ron straining to shift the rocks was gone. The tunnel turned and turned again. Every nerve in Harry's body was tingling unpleasantly. He wanted the tunnel to end, yet dreaded what he'd find when it did. And then, at last, as he crept around yet another bend, he saw a solid wall ahead on which two entwined serpents were carved, their eyes set with great, glinting emeralds. Harry approached, his throat very dry. There was no need to pretend these stone snakes were real; their eyes looked strangely alive. He could guess what he had to do. He cleared his throat, and the emerald eyes seemed to flicker. "Open," said Harry, in a low, faint hiss. The serpents parted as the wall cracked open, the halves slid smoothly our of sight, and Harry, shaking from head to foot, walked inside. CoS chapter 16 "The Chamber of Secrets" page 305 American Hardback. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I suppose it is very possible that the green stones have nothing to do with Harry's green eyes, and that they only lend to the fact that Slytherin has green as a main color for their house's crest; much like the fact that Godric Gryffindor's sword held rubies and their crest is red. Still I guess the fact that it was green EYES made me wonder, and the fact that it was stated on more than one occasion. And as I said previously I'm sure this has been discussed, but still I would love to hear thoughts on this. Chancie~who found it somewhat amusing that she accidentally came up with another possible acronym for ESE =) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 05:15:34 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 05:15:34 -0000 Subject: Inside Bella - Social & Psychological Motivation In-Reply-To: <025701c52dba$088443e0$6501a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Charme" wrote: > >Steve said: > > Bella is willing to bow down to Voldemort, because he is the source of all power. It is through him, that every bit of her own self-worth is validated. That and she really doesn't want him to kill or torture her. Sometimes you just have to acknowledge and accept that you've met someone who is even more crazy and fanatical than you are, and when you do, in your own insanity, you admire them for it. > Charme said: > From philospohical perspective, I've tried to forget that Bellatrix is a woman and find some common ground within mythology and legend, but her damn predeliction for "baby talk" always throws me off. If I ignore that (and it's hard), then I start to feel she's bent towards zealotry, and even Nazism. Tonks now: First a special thank you to Steve for such an informative post. As to Charme's post, I have often thought of Bella as Nazi like. I saw a PBS special a couple of week ago about the Nazis and the concentration camps. The show told of a woman SS officer that was worse than any of the men. When I saw that I wondered if she was the basis for Bella. I seriously wonder if JKR used the Nazis as the role models for the DE. If that were the case than this woman officer was the model for Bella. Bella's taunting of Harry I am able to understand. I think she is like Snape in that regard, showing disdain for the display of emotions of sadness and grief. Like Snape she shows emotion but only anger, not anything tender like love or sadness. These are the emotions of the weak, the victims. The strong and superior do not stoop to such displays of emotions. The "wearing of emotions on the sleeve" as Snape would say. While I like the idea of dressing all in black, in a commanding presence like Snape... now I am not sure if I really want to *try on* Bella's mindset to get into the part. Maybe for a short period of time, but this Auror doesn't want to go to the dark side. And I am not sure if I have it in me to really do a good imitation of her. I am sure that many will say that this is a good thing. ;-) Thanks again. Tonks_op From sylviablundell at aol.com Mon Mar 21 10:39:52 2005 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (ladyramkin2001) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:39:52 -0000 Subject: Draco the HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126379 Kizor wrote: >I've taken upthe opinion that the Half Blood Prince is none other >than Lily Potter Not beyond the bounds of possibility. After all, Queen Elizabeth I always referredto herself as a Prince! Sylvia (we really NEED that new book) From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Mon Mar 21 11:33:34 2005 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 06:33:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87922b4463cd5072ee59c777f80d64c5@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 126380 Tonks wrote: > > I have been trying to understand Bella...? > > Anyway how can a person be strong, unyielding, cruel and loving it > one minute, and the next be a sniveling, whimpering being groveling > at the feet of LV?? I just don't get it. Can someone help me > understand what is in Bella head?? Not sure I have an answer exactly, for it's the same problem that many have in understanding real true-to-life people who have become fanatically devoted to a person and who then do horrible crimes. Remember "Squeaky Frome?" She was one of the "Manson's women," and during Manson's murder trial, she camped out in front on the courthouse. Too much. She later tried to shoot President Ford. After 20 years in prison, she still says that she is still one of Manson's most loyal supporters. People are still trying to figure out why a popular, middle class kid turned into a dangerous fanatic just enthralled by Manson. In Frome's case, emotional abuse from her father was part of the puzzle. Her father stopped speaking to her when she came an adolescent. (http://www.squeakyfromme.org/media/sipchen.htm.) Manson knew how to pick his followers. Bella seems to be the counterpart of McGonagall. MM thinks for herself and is not a slave to Dumbledore, yet in OotP she is willing to follow Dumbledore when he is banished. MM has a healthy loyalty and respect for Dumbledore. On the other hand, Bella's devotion is not rational (LV is a half-blood): and slavish. She's an example of loyalty and devotion gone amuck. What I find interesting is what it is about Manson or Hitler) that engendered such devotion. There were both paranoid, very delusional. Both Manson and Hitler dabbled I think in the occult--think "dark arts." lt's funny I can see Tom Riddle as a cult leader. Voldemort just doesn't seem quite human. However, Voldemort's power to possess and control people does seem real. How many parents of a sullen or wild adolescent's have wondered what has taken control of their formerly docile child? Barbara Roberts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 21 12:47:42 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:47:42 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Jen: On another related thought: I try to imagine a story where > Harry was raised a different way or where Dumbledore intervened or > the Dursleys were different people. > > Most of the scenarios I run through my head pale in comparison to > what JKR actually created. I personally don't care to read about how > DD attempted to convert the Dursleys, or save Harry from their > fiendish ways. It sacrifices the story for political correctness > IMO. The idea of DD placing Harry with the Dursleys, then spending > the next 11 years trying to make them act a certain way sounds like > a social service case history, not a compelling, one-of-a-kind, > fantasy-based, fictional story. > > Even if JKR did think through all the possible ramifications of her > plot, and still decided to depict the story, Harry, DD and the > Dursleys the way she did, I applaud her for that. She's created a > moment in history as much as a ficitonal construct, and she's > created nothing to be ashamed of, or to explain away or to correct > for people who don't agree with her story. > Well, as I've said many times, JKR is under no compunction or responsibility to write anything for anybody. She has every right and power to write anything she wants for any reason she wants for any audience she wants. And anyone who reads her stories can react in any way they feel is genuine. That is the right of the reader. And there are plenty of people who feel as you have described. That is absolutely and inarguably your right. However, there are plenty of us who feel another way. We very much DO want to read how DD tried to save Harry from the Dursleys, or agonized over his decision. And it is not politically correct in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Rather we have found or ability to believe in Dumbledore's character, as JKR obviously WANTS us to believe in it, to have been badly shaken by his actions or lack thereof with regard to Harry and the Dursleys. Now, you might say that we suffer from too great a literalism, or an inability to suspend disbelief. You might even say, as with that excellent quote you used from JKR, that we are simply not able to take the story as it is and react without analyzing. All of that may be true, or not. But, and it is a VERY important BUT, our reactions and feelings are every bit as genuine and heartfelt as those who love the story without any further explanation. And the expressions of our distress are in no way politically correct, or unappreciative, or indicative of an inability to feel the magic of the story. Rather it is an indication of the fact that JKR obviously wants us to feel one way about a character and situation, and we find it impossible to do so given the story as it now stands. I personally hope that JKR HAS paid attention to the "hullaballoo" this storyline has caused, and takes action in the next two books to calm it. But she is under no obligation to do so. She may do whatever she wants. She did not have to bring this up the first time, and does not have to again. Similarly, we are under no obligation to like or be appreciative of what she has done, or to cease expressing our dislike simply because she sees things another way. Personally, if she does not address these issues, or worse, provides some pat or off-the-cuff answer, I'll probably throw the books in the dumpster and regret having wasted my money. That is just me, of course. But it is a genuine expression of my feelings about the matter, which are not politically correct, or over-analyzing, or anything else. They are just an expression of the jarring discord I feel with what I read and the author's stated intent. Chuckle. Somehow, I seriously doubt anything I do will make much of a dent on the Harry Potter enterprise, one way or another. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 21 13:10:27 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:10:27 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126383 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > My main point to Lupinlore really was intended to be that JKR may > well have never anticipated the degree of analysis her books & > decisions would undergo. She may have thought that her reasoning > would be clear to the readers, whereas a lot of us (esp. her adult > readers) are more inclined to question and critique. This is not a > bad thing! But I do think there may well be situations where JKR > believes her position is clearer than we feel it is. I'm wondering > if DD's decision to leave Harry with the Dursleys isn't one of those > situations where she'd be surprised to discover what a hullabaloo > has arisen over it. > I accept your correction and bow humbly to receive my appropriate chastisment. :-) You know, I wonder if we might not be dealing to an extent with one of those cultural disconnects to which Pippin alluded upthread (or perhaps it was in one of the related threads). In any case, one of the main issues with regards to which there seems to be a gulf between JKR and some (a few? many? lots of? who knows?) her readers is the lack of apparent remorse or tension in Dumbledore over this whole issue. To wit, Pippin said that Dumbledore may be expressing remorse in the fashion of an "English gentleman of the old school." To many of us (most of whom are on the other side of the Atlantic, I believe, although I may well be mistaken on that) he comes across as cold, unsympathetic, and somewhat inappropriate in his affect with regard to this issue. As I have said before, part of his speech in OOTP that might be supposed to come across like sympathy and remorse reads to me, and I believe to some (many? a few? lots of? who knows?) others as "You survived and you're healthy kid, so you don't have a right to complain. Shut up and take it like a man." On the other hand, or in addition to this, perhaps the "authorial myopia" is in play, here. That is, JKR knows what Dumbledore is feeling and means to say, therefore it is clear to her whether it is clear to anybody else or not. In any case, it's a possibility. Lupinlore From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Mar 21 13:14:24 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:14:24 -0000 Subject: Readers' Response was Re: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126384 Lupinlore wrote: snip Personally, if she does not address these issues, or worse, provides some pat or off-the-cuff answer, I'll probably throw the books in the dumpster and regret having wasted my money. That is just me, of course. But it is a genuine expression of my feelings about the matter, which are not politically correct, or over-analyzing, or anything else. They are just an expression of the jarring discord I feel with what I read and the author's stated intent. Potioncat: This intrigues me. And I've seen similar statements about other plot issues. But, how could you be so involved with the first 5 books and later be so very disappointed that you would think it a waste? I have a friend who stopped reading the series after PoA because it became too dark for her. But she isn't reading it and discussing it and spending time on it. Now, I can understand being upset over a character's death. I can understand being disappointed over some event that doesn't occur as expected. But I can't see how whatever-comes-next, could ruin the whole series. If I'm correct, you've enjoyed the books so far, but have some reactions to the Dursley/Dumbledore portions of the story. I don't mean this to sound attacking, I'm just curious. And I'm not just asking you personally, Lupinlore, but others who've said similar things about other issues. Lupinlore also wrote: > Chuckle. Somehow, I seriously doubt anything I do will make much of a dent on the Harry Potter enterprise, one way or another. Potioncat: Especially since you've already paid your money! ;-) Potioncat From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 13:34:46 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:34:46 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126385 > > Susan: > > > I've always assumed that the precise addressing of envelopes in the > > WW comes via some special magic of the owls, rather than of the > > sender. That somehow they are able to adjust the ink so that it > ?? matches the true location of the recipient. > > Potioncat: > I agree. And while JKR no longer has Harry amazed at the address on > envelopes they probably read something like: Ron Weasley, Compartment > 4, Hogwarts Express. Or Sirius Black, cave under the holly tree near > Hogsmeade, or better yet: Sirius Black, You Know Where. Finwitch: Quite - and er - I think that if one's under protective 'unplottable' or 'Fidelius' Charms - (and who knows what others) - SECRET location, well -- I think the envelope would just say: Unknown location (as the ones calling Harry for the Hearing mentioned). Still, Hedwig could reach Hermione, Ron and Sirius at 12 Grimmauld Place - as did the Ministry-OWL reach Harry... Still, all the post Harry's getting is from friends, official (Hogwarts&Ministry) and only after that Quibbler article from any other... are the allowed birds carrying mail somehow restricted? Finwitch From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 15:05:06 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:05:06 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126386 Jen said: (snipped with a big wave to Jen) > I can't say for sure, but if you removed the Dursleys from the story > and had Harry raised with Wizards, or made the Dursleys different > characters or even changed the scope of the DD character to more of > an interventionist type, I think some of the magic would be lost. > > In the first scenario we wouldn't get to see Harry enter the magical > world for one thing, as he'd already be there. That was the hook for > me, the magic of the story--Harry got a one-of-a-kind oppoortunity > to leave behind this totally disastrous life to be a *wizard*. Who > can't relate to having someone appear and say, 'this isn't who you > really are, let me show you the magical world you really belong to." (snip the rest) Now Ginger: I totally agree. It's the ultimate "wish fulfillment". Now, not many of us check the sky daily for an owl inviting us to join the WW, but we all have our wishes. How many of us play the lottery? How many (especially in our teen years) dream of meeting that special someone who will be our soul mate? How many cheer for the underdog team in the World Series or Superbowl if "our" team isn't playing, or go totally mad if our team is in it? And that's just us adults. Remember what you wished for as a child? The lower the circumstances, the greater the fulfillment. A destitute mother of 3 working 3 jobs winning the lottery fills us with the warm fuzzies more than a CEO winning it. Cinderella gets the slipper, not her evil step-sisters. And how 'bout those Red Sox? The more the hero needs the wish to be fulfilled, the more we cheer for them when it is. And so it is with Harry. Had the Dursleys been a loving family, Harry's entrance into the WW would have been interesting, but he would not have garnered the sympathy he did coming from a loving family. As it was, we cheered with him. He didn't make an entrance, he made an escape. And we cheer that escape in every book as the Durslays keep giving him (and us)reason to wish for it. It just jacks the emotional level up a notch. The Dursleys can be "as bad as they wanna be" and as long as Harry keeps coming out the winner, we'll cheer for him. Plot device? Yes, but it's got us hooked! Ginger, who rather enjoys the Dursleys, just because it's so fun to root against them. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 21 15:33:28 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:33:28 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126387 SSSusan previously: > > My main point to Lupinlore really was.... Lupinlore: > I accept your correction and bow humbly to receive my appropriate > chastisment. :-) SSSusan: No, no, not at all, Lupinlore. You weren't in need of correction as much as I wanted to offer clarification. :-) Lupinlore: > You know, I wonder if we might not be dealing to an extent with one > of those cultural disconnects to which Pippin alluded upthread. As I have said before, part of his speech in OOTP that might > be supposed to come across like sympathy and remorse reads to me, > and I believe to some others as "You survived and you're healthy > kid, so you don't have a right to complain. Shut up and take it > like a man." SSSusan: I think you may well be right about this. Or it may be a combination of how you responded to Jen and this issue. IOW, Jen is happy with the package that has come from JKR, whereas you & some others would prefer to see more detail in area X or more explanation in area Y. Different strokes for different folks. Add this to a possible cultural disconnect, and I can see where distress comes in for some readers. As for me, I'm more in Jen's camp over the lens through which we look at the books, as well as being able to enjoy them (by & large) just as they've been given to us. My thoughts about DD in the OoP speech were *between* Pippin's and yours, though. I don't see DD as as "stiff upper lippish" as some other male British literary characters, but I definitely couldn't imagine him emoting all over the place either. I *do* see that single tear as indicative of a lot from a man who isn't likely to do a lot of crying. So much of it, I think, still hinges on whether you are able to believe that DD did what he *believed* he *had* to do regarding Harry's life from 15 months to age 15. If you do, then the degree of sadness & remorse he showed to Harry is likely satisfactory. If you do not -- if you're looking for a complete justification of why he did what he did, where he now believes he screwed up -- then I can understand that the scene would ring hollow. Siriusly Snapey Susan, who will add, for the sake of the owl post part of the subject line, that she thinks owls' magical ability to locate recipients is reflected in magically changing addresses on envelopes. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Mar 21 15:37:03 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:37:03 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126388 Potioncat here, trying to correct some sort of programming error that showed up the first time I sent this post. With any luck, this one will work and I'll delete the original post > Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote in post #126374 > My main point to Lupinlore really was intended to be that JKR may > > well have never anticipated the degree of analysis her books & > > decisions would undergo. She may have thought that her reasoning > > would be clear to the readers, whereas a lot of us (esp. her adult readers) are more inclined to question and critique. > > Jen agreed, responding in post 126375: > > > >...we wouldn't get to see Harry enter the magical > > world for one thing, as he'd already be there. That was the hook > for > > me, the magic of the story--Harry got a one-of-a-kind oppoortunity > > to leave behind this totally disastrous life to be a *wizard*. Who > > can't relate to having someone appear and say, 'this isn't who you > ?? really are, let me show you the magical world you really belong > to." > > Potioncat: > It took two attempts for me before I could get into the Harry Potter > series, and at that, I had to make myself stick with it the second > time. (Who would have guessed!) I couldn't buy the idea that Harry > could be treated the way he was and still be a nice kid! although I'll accept Jen's professional opinion on the matter. So very quickly, in the first couple of chapters, I took it as a throwback to earlier forms of literature. The Dickens or Bronte story: hero/herione is treated horribly, unfairly accused of things, punished unjustly but grows up well anyway. In fact, that style of story telling make the series a quirky sort of out-of-time narrative. > > We're never quite sure when or where we are. Are we in Victorian > England? Is Harry Pip? Medieval England? Is Harry Wart? Modern > England? Is he just Harry? Because I came at it from a Dickens sort > of filter, I never reacted to the abuse. Abuse is a modern issue. > And while Harry is in modern England, the story really isn't. > > It also turns the idea of witches upside down. (No foreshadowing > intended.) Harry is rescued from the bad Muggle world and taken to > the good Wizarding world. Just as we became comfortable in the > Wizarding World, knowing that some wizards aren't good, but most > certainly the ones at Hogwarts are, we meet Snape... erm, Professor > Snape, another literary throw-back. Once again, for me at least, I > suspend disbelief and accept this character from the past. And again,we're surprised when he doesn't follow the standard role of cruel schoolmaster but seems to have hidden agendas and good purposes. > > This quirky use of time and characterizations are what make the > series so much fun IMHO. > > > Susan also wrote in that same post: > > > I've always assumed that the precise addressing of envelopes in the WW comes via some special magic of the owls, rather than of the > > sender. That somehow they are able to adjust the ink so that it > ?? matches the true location of the recipient. > > Potioncat: > I agree. And while JKR no longer has Harry amazed at the address on > envelopes they probably read something like: Ron Weasley, Compartment 4, Hogwarts Express. Or Sirius Black, cave under the holly tree near Hogsmeade, or better yet: Sirius Black, You Know Where. > > Potioncat From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Mar 21 16:37:57 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:37:57 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma - Protections and Perspectives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126389 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > I think lots of the issues we (we meaning fans) see in the books arise from this tendency. For instance the issue of the Slytherins. I think JKR just needed some people in the early books to be the villains. I doubt the whole issue of marking a quarter of children at Hogwarts as "evil" crossed her mind until it erupted in fandom.< Pippin: ::blinks:: I doubt it. What we might call the Slytherin Question echoes historical reality far too closely for that. To wit, the other houses rejected Slytherin's philosophy, but they seem to have found that they couldn't disavow Slytherin House without uprooting themselves. The resemblance between this situation and the history of conflict between Protestants and Catholics, or between Christians and Jews, are to me too obvious to be accidental. I do think that JKR is dealing with the issues she raises on her own timetable, which may be too slow for some readers. If we are not party to Dumbledore's thinking as he decided what lesser evils he was prepared to tolerate for the sake of the greater good, it is because JKR wants the issue and the anguish to be fresh when Harry grapples with it. He'll have to, considering the Sorting Hat's advice. He may find that he needs, not the hypothetical 'good' Slytherins, but the unreformed 'evil' Slytherins, many of whom, for all their bullying, cheating ways, are prepared to support Harry against Voldemort, as they showed by standing for him in GoF. My own feeling is that a bright shining line is being drawn between the bullies who kill, and the bullies who, tempted though they might be, nonetheless refrain from killing. Lupinlore: > I think the issue of Veritaserum and Legilemency with regard to Sirius in Azkaban functioned the same way. Was JKR attempting to send a message about trust in authority or the application of technology to court cases? < Pippin: Considering that JKR used to work for Amnesty International, and these kinds of things are burning issues for them, I'd say, "Yes, indeed." Pippin From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Mar 21 17:09:35 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:09:35 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > However, there are plenty of us who feel another way. We very > much DO want to read how DD tried to save Harry from the Dursleys, > or agonized over his decision. And it is not politically correct > in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Rather we have found or > ability to believe in Dumbledore's character, as JKR obviously > WANTS us to believe in it, to have been badly shaken by his > actions or lack thereof with regard to Harry and the Dursleys. > Now, you might say that we suffer from too great a literalism, or > an inability to suspend disbelief. You might even say, as with > that excellent quote you used from JKR, that we are simply not > able to take the story as it is and react without analyzing. SSSusan: > I think you may well be right about this. Or it may be a > combination of how you responded to Jen and this issue. IOW, Jen > is happy with the package that has come from JKR, whereas you & > some others would prefer to see more detail in area X or more > explanation in area Y. Different strokes for different folks. Add > this to a possible cultural disconnect, and I can see where > distress comes in for some readers. Jen: I misunderstood your point, Lupinlore, and think SSSusan summed up our differences well. At first I thought you were saying JKR owes us an explanation, which I would argue fiercely, but now I understand that you do not buy what JKR is selling up to this point. And that opinion, like you said, is inarguably your right to feel. The Dumbledore character, his actions & motivations, don't add up for you and you need a better explanation to make it all hang together. Lupinlore: > Similarly, we are under no obligation to like or be appreciative of > what she has done, or to cease expressing our dislike simply > because she sees things another way. Personally, if she does not > address these issues, or worse, provides some pat or off-the-cuff > answer, I'll probably throw the books in the dumpster and regret > having wasted my money. That is just me, of course. But it is a > genuine expression of my feelings about the matter, which are not > politically correct, or over-analyzing, or anything else. They > are just an expression of the jarring discord I feel with what I > read and the author's stated intent. Jen: It *is* hard for me to understand the 'jarring discord' you feel from the characterization of Dumbledore and the situation with the Dursleys. But I won't try to change your mind! Like you said, you have a right to feel it and find the books somewhat diminished by it. There are possible scenarios which would mightily diminish the series for me, like ESE!Lupin. No matter how expertly Pippin argues this plot twist, I would not buy that JKR has prepared us for a twist such as that. No matter what sinister intent people invest in Lupin, mainly because of his actions in POA, I still maintain he was a victim of plot necessity in that one. The plot hinged on the ambiguity of his character so the reader would be left wondering about his true nature until the bitter end. If JKR comes back to say, 'no, he actually *is* evil' I will feel duped and it will take some mighty acrobatics on my part to make peace with it. But I probably will go through the exercise. Ginger: > And so it is with Harry. Had the Dursleys been a loving family, > Harry's entrance into the WW would have been interesting, but he > would not have garnered the sympathy he did coming from a loving > family. As it was, we cheered with him. He didn't make an > entrance, he made an escape. And we cheer that escape in every > book as the Durslays keep giving him (and us)reason to wish for > it. > > It just jacks the emotional level up a notch. The Dursleys can > be "as bad as they wanna be" and as long as Harry keeps coming out > the winner, we'll cheer for him. Jen: That's exactly where the emotional connection is, Ginger. The Escape. And even better was Harry's deep desire to find another life via the unknown man on the motorcycle who appears in his dreams. Heart-wrenching. And the dreams came TRUE. That's what I love. That Hagrid appeared one day, and Harry had the guts & the desire to ditch it all for a life he knows nothing about, but one he's *certain* will be better than the Dursleys. As he says in the celluloid version of POA: "Anywhere is better than here." Amen, brother. Jen From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 21 17:20:07 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:20:07 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post/Readers' Response In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: My thoughts about DD in the OoP speech > were *between* Pippin's and yours, though. I don't see DD as > as "stiff upper lippish" as some other male British literary > characters, but I definitely couldn't imagine him emoting all over > the place either. I *do* see that single tear as indicative of a lot > from a man who isn't likely to do a lot of crying. > > So much of it, I think, still hinges on whether you are able to > believe that DD did what he *believed* he *had* to do regarding > Harry's life from 15 months to age 15. If you do, then the degree of > sadness & remorse he showed to Harry is likely satisfactory. If you > do not -- if you're looking for a complete justification of why he > did what he did, where he now believes he screwed up -- then I can > understand that the scene would ring hollow. > Yes, I do believe you've hit on it, Susan. It does VERY much ring hollow for me and for at least some others (a dozen or so of my personal acquaintance, anyway). And unless we get a MUCH more complete justification of Dumbledore's actions or lack thereof, including a detailed explanation of what he would do differently and an expression of remorse for the pain he has caused Harry, the books go to the dumpster. As for the question of why take the books to the dumpster, I can offer some rather entertaining explanations [:-)] and then the serious one. I guess if you're a Freudian you could say it represents a socially acceptable sublimation of rage toward the author. Or if you are an environmentalist you could say it's a contribution of much-needed absorbent material to land-fills badly in need of seepage prevention. Or if you are a Foucaultian it is the act of rejecting material at variance with the dominant episteme. Now, for the serious explanation. I have limited room on my bookshelves and can only keep books I'm inclined to revisit -- which means books that are either practically useful to me in some way or works of fiction into which I can enter without jarring dissonance. Now, the "goodness" of Dumbledore is a theme/plot element near the heart of the Harry Potter series. I could readily believe it until Book V by the theory that he didn't know about what went on at the Dursleys and if he had he would have acted firmly to stop it (I know the thing about the letters was cutting against that, but as it was only a minor thing I could ignore it or come up with various theories to explain it). Now, with Book V, such jarring dissonance is introduced into the presentation of Dumbledore that neither I nor many people of my acquaintance can believe in him as a good character anymore. Sorry, just can't do it. His speech in OOTP is just completely unconvincing and totally unsatisfactory. And unless the future books act to defuse this dissonance with detailed explanations of why a "good" character tolerated child abuse (and that IS what he did), then the dissonance will likely grow into a complete inability to suspend disbelief at all with regard to the story. At that point the books become 3500 pages or so of land-fill seepage prevention material. Or to put it another way, they represent about four linear feet that can be used for something I can either use or believe in, like dog grooming manuals. Of course someone might well say that just because some people feel dissonance that does not mean there is a problem to be fixed or that JKR is under any obligation at all to give further explanations. Definitely true. But then neither is anyone under any obligation to like her books or keep them on the shelf, either. Lupinlore From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 17:40:12 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:40:12 -0000 Subject: Readers' response Was: Re: DD's dilemma + Owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126393 Lupinlore: Personally, if she does not address these issues, or worse, provides some pat or off-the-cuff answer, I'll probably throw the books in the dumpster and regret having wasted my money. That is just me, of course. But it is a genuine expression of my feelings about the matter, which are not politically correct, or over-analyzing, or anything else. They are just an expression of the jarring discord I feel with what I read and the author's stated intent. Jen: It *is* hard for me to understand the 'jarring discord' you feel from the characterization of Dumbledore and the situation with the Dursleys. But I won't try to change your mind! Like you said, you have a right to feel it and find the books somewhat diminished by it. There are possible scenarios which would mightily diminish the series for me, like ESE!Lupin. No matter how expertly Pippin argues this plot twist, I would not buy that JKR has prepared us for a twist such as that. If JKR comes back to say, 'no, he actually *is* evil' I will feel duped and it will take some mighty acrobatics on my part to make peace with it. But I probably will go through the exercise. Alla: Hi, Jen! The funny thing is that I actually thought that I love OOP after I got over the initial shock and I think I owe it to the discussions on this list that I now love it MUCH less than I thought. Some of the posters here can be very convincing. No, I don't think that I hate it, but I do not enjoy the last book as much as I was thinking. Going back to your earlier points - yes, just as Lupinlore says I want much better explanation, although I don't think that I feel as strongly as he does about throwing the books away, if no explanation will be given. After all, no matter how much we discuss the first four books, it did not make me enjoy ANY of them any less. Oh, and yes about ESE!Lupin. :o) JKR wished him a Happy Birthday, so it makes me even more confident that he is not. :) Jen: That's exactly where the emotional connection is, Ginger. The Escape. And even better was Harry's deep desire to find another life via the unknown man on the motorcycle who appears in his dreams. Heart-wrenching. And the dreams came TRUE. That's what I love. That Hagrid appeared one day, and Harry had the guts & the desire to ditch it all for a life he knows nothing about, but one he's *certain* will be better than the Dursleys. As he says in the celluloid version of POA: "Anywhere is better than here." Amen, brother. Alla: Oh, of course. No matter how much I want to slap Dursleys, I don't want them out of the story. I do agree with you that emotional moment of escape would not have played out as strongly as if Dursleys were nice, BUT that was when story was much more rooted in fairy tale and I would not have Harry of PS/SS to be any other way. But when I read about Harry at the end of OOP, who tries to tell Dumbledore that "she never loved me" and Dumbledore shuts him up in the middle of the sentence, THAT Harry is not rooted in fairy tale as much as he used to be ( for me anyway). I see a portrayal of hurt child, who is a realistic enough to demand answers and hopefully receive satisfactory answers. Am I being confusing? JMO, Alla. From xcpublishing at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 18:27:58 2005 From: xcpublishing at yahoo.com (xcpublishing) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:27:58 -0000 Subject: Subject: Inside Bella was Re: What would Bella think or do? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126394 "Tonks" wrote: > > I appreciate all who have responded to my question. I am still > trying to understand how someone like Bella could bring herself to > grovel at the foot of LV. I saw nothing odd about this behavior at all. What it told me was that although Bellatrix is stark raving mad, she's no idiot. She screwed up and she's seen what LV is capable of. Even in her madness, she's intelligent enough to know how to deflect LV's rage - he's shown he values loyalty, even in those that would stab him in the back given half a chance. Before he can even think to torture her, she leaps on his feet and gives him the groveling routine. If she escapes torture, she wins. In fact, this little tidbit moved her to the top of the DE food chain in my opinion - how many of the others can manipulate LV? Do you think Lucius would stoop to groveling? And if he did, would LV buy it? He certainly isn't buying it from Wormtail, who admittedly grovels on a continuous basis just to stay alive. Like everything else she does, I think Bella can cold-bloodedly turn on and off any emotion she wants. Frankly, I don't even think she IS loyal to LV, he's simply the only one that can give her what she wants: victims. I think she just wants to inflict as much pain on anyone and everyone possible for as long as she can get away with it. She has anger issues. My question is, was she born that way? Or did her rage develop later? I would really love to have some more background on the ever-so-delightful Black family. Nicky Joe From xcpublishing at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 18:48:20 2005 From: xcpublishing at yahoo.com (xcpublishing) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:48:20 -0000 Subject: Subject: Re: The Future of SPEW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126395 Dave Hardenbrook wrote: >I think Jo has dropped numerous hints that House Elves are very, very >powerful magically. -- In some ways maybe more powerful than Wizards. >And that makes me wonder if the reason House Elves have been enslaved >all these centuries is because Wizards fear their power, and so feel a >need to keep it shackled, possibly with some massive >House-Elf-specific variation on the Imperious Curse. I like this idea, although it makes you wonder how Dobby could have broken the curse. It would at least be an explanation of why elves became servants in the first place. I think the house-elves are going to become major players in the next two books. And that brings up another question - are ALL elves house-elves? Are there still elves living elsewhere? Do they despise their house-elf cousins for demeaning themselves? stickbook now: >Sounds good. However, what if Hermione manages to free the Elves en >masse, only to have them do more damage than good? I think the elves will end up being freed, although how JKR plans to pull off that little nugget is anyone's guess. Anyone have a guess? Stickbook, what do you mean by "more damage than good"? Nicky Joe From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 19:25:40 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:25:40 -0000 Subject: Lucius' ambition. Was: Inside Bella was Re: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126396 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > A_svirn: > Personally, I am much more puzzled by Lucius. He certainly NOT a > fanatic, his ambition probably rivals that of LV and his social > standing is (or at the very least was) infinitely superior. So why > on earth would he pledge his loyalty to a dangerous power-hungry > half-blood, who expects him to grovel and call him "Master"?! There > is nothing to be gained from such an arrangement for Lucius and > everything to loose. > > Alla: > > I think the general answer to your question about Lucius is simple > enough ( IMO anyway). Lucius thinks that Voldemort can give him > something that nobody else can and this SOMETHING is so valuable to > Lucius that he is willing to abandon his pride and grovel at his > feet. > > Now, my suspicion that this something is no less than immortality, > as we had been told of Voldemort's pursuit of immortality, although > we don't know much concrete information yet. Maybe he promised to > share the potion or the formula or something like that with his most > loyal DE. a_svirn: You may be right, but if Lucius believed that he must be dumb indeed. Could be, of course. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 19:51:46 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:51:46 -0000 Subject: Inside Bella - Social & Psychological Motivation In-Reply-To: <025701c52dba$088443e0$6501a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126397 "Charme" wrote: Lucius is ambitious, > logical, and determined, and Bellatrix is just chaotic and rash up until the > "action" really heats up. This leads me to believe that Bellatrix is, for > lack of a better phrase, a "warrior princess." a_svirn: I am sure you can find a better phrase. Just imagine a grovelling Brunhild or Boddicea. I certainly can't. From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 21 21:32:26 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:32:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050321213226.90829.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126398 Lupinlore: "OK, Harry at Dursleys, here's the reason, subplot closed, moving on." SSSusan: I had said that I *can* see JKR thinking so fully that DD saw leaving Harry with the Dursleys as his only option, that she never gave all the rest of those issues we've talked about that much thought [not checking up on him; not going back & intervening over the years; not threatening the Dursleys a little more -- *if* in fact none of that happened]. [among other posts blasting DD for not intervening] I have been reading off and on during this thread--darn RL--but I thought the reason DD didn't intervene in HP's life at the Dursley's was because he did not want to draw attention to HP's whereabouts. I thought this so surely that I just *knew* it was canon, but now I don't know where I got that idea--whether from the book, interviews, yahoogroups, etc. Once HP was of age to attend Hogwarts the point was mute. He was already "outed" so to speak. Prior to that, his whereabouts were secret. I thought DD didn't want to jeopardize this privacy--perhaps thinking if LV DE's wanted to find HP, then following DD--or others in his employ--as best they could would lead them to him. No communication and therefore subsequent neglect HP suffered from the Dursley's was safer than than the alternative of being found out by the DEs. SSSusan: I've always assumed that the precise addressing of envelopes in the WW comes via some special magic of the owls, rather than of the sender. That somehow they are able to adjust the ink so that it matches the true location of the recipient. I've mentioned this before and haven't exactly been overwhelmed with support for the idea , so I may be in a big minority. That is what I have always assumed as well. It makes so much sense although I cannot work out the logistics, and explains why Harry can simply say "find him" and all be well. If DD or others were able to magically *know* where someone was, why did DD need help from the portraits to find Arthur Weasley in the MOM? theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 21:54:07 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:54:07 -0000 Subject: Subject: Inside Bella was Re: What would Bella think or do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126399 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "xcpublishing" wrote: > > I saw nothing odd about this behavior at all. What it told me was > that although Bellatrix is stark raving mad, she's no idiot. She > screwed up and she's seen what LV is capable of. Even in her > madness, she's intelligent enough to know how to deflect LV's rage - he's shown he values loyalty, even in those that would stab him in the back given half a chance. Before he can even think to torture her, she leaps on his feet and gives him the groveling routine. If she escapes torture, she wins. In fact, this little tidbit moved her to the top of the DE food chain in my opinion - how many of the others can manipulate LV? Tonks here: I like this idea about Bella. She is very resourceful and a very evil person. Perhaps more evil than LV himself. She and she alone can manipulate old Voldy. Yes, I do like this one!!! Ohooo, I might be getting a bit too much pleasure out of my journey to the dark side! ;-) Tonks_op From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Mon Mar 21 22:07:36 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:07:36 -0000 Subject: Some more OOTP Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126400 I am continuing my rereading OOTP and I have some more questions that I hope you can all help me with. (I tried to do some searches but didn't get anything.) (1) Is Umbridge part troll? Does anyone else think that Umbridge is part human and part something else? Troll? Also there are lots of references to toads in how she looks to Harry. Is why she hates "half-breeds" so much because she is one? (2) How did LV know what was in the Department of Mysteries? In the thoughts that Harry shares with him, LV has a pretty good knowledge of the DoM. He even knows to go to row number 97. How could he know this? Some of the Ministry employees may be DE's but wouldn't only the "Unspeakables" know what exactly is in there? So is an Unspeakable a DE? (3) How does the Pensieve work? The Pensieve doesn't store "memories" exactly because Harry sees things from a third- person point of view, not from Snape's. Harry had to stay within sight of Snape, but he heard things Snape could never have heard and thus couldn't have a memory of them. So what does this say about what is stored in our heads? (4) Snape's worst memory. Snape put three "thoughts" into the Pensieve so that Harry couldn't penetrate them. Are they all part of one "memory" or are there two more "memories" we didn't see? (5) Did Snape really expect Harry to see his "worst memory"? He was furious afterwards, but did he really mean it? He got to show Harry that his father was an arrogant jerk and he got an excuse to stop giving Harry Occulmency lessons. If he is really working for LV, the latter is the result he wants. (6) Did JKR have Sirius give HP that special mirror just so that Harry would feel guilty, or is there is something more? Will that mirror return in HBP? (7) In DD's exit scene, I noticed that DD didn't have a particularly high regard for the truth or the law. No real question ? just an observation. He lied about organizing the DA and about it having its first meeting that evening and about plotting against the Ministry. He used violence to resist arrest. He didn't mind Marietta Edgecombe being put under a curse to modify her memory. Richard Jones From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 21 22:11:06 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:11:06 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: <20050321213226.90829.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126401 SSSusan: > > I had said that I *can* see JKR thinking so fully that DD > > saw leaving Harry with the Dursleys as his only option, that she > > never gave all the rest of those issues we've talked about that > > much thought [not checking up on him; not going back & > > intervening over the years; not threatening the Dursleys a > > little more -- *if* in fact none of that happened]. theotokos: > [among other posts blasting DD for not intervening] SSSusan: EEEEK!! I'm not blasting DD for not intervening! I'm one of the ones who thinks he truly did what he believed to be best. Now, I may have *wished* he'd exerted a little influence over the years, for poor Harry's sake, but I think that DD believed if he pushed too hard, the Dursleys would've kicked Harry out. And I think JKR probably thought it was clear to her readers that DD didn't feel he had any choice. Just clarifying. :-) theotokos: > If DD or others were able to magically *know* where someone was, > why did DD need help from the portraits to find Arthur Weasley in > the MOM? SSS: Exactly! I don't think they DO know. I think the *owls* know (somehow!), and as long as a letter is in an owl's possession, the ink on the envelope will re-write itself to be accurate upon delivery. Siriusly Snapey Susan From elanorpam at yahoo.com.br Mon Mar 21 22:29:35 2005 From: elanorpam at yahoo.com.br (Paula "Elanor Pam") Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:29:35 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some more OOTP Questions References: Message-ID: <00a401c52e65$7d69fdc0$0601010a@harrypotter> No: HPFGUIDX 126402 From: "Richard Jones" (7) In DD's exit scene, I noticed that DD didn't have a particularly high regard for the truth or the law. No real question - just an observation. He lied about organizing the DA and about it having its first meeting that evening and about plotting against the Ministry. He used violence to resist arrest. He didn't mind Marietta Edgecombe being put under a curse to modify her memory. Elanor Pam: I think that just shows Dumbledore has better priorities than being a goody two-shoes. His main priority was keeping Harry IN Hogwarts, where he could be safe and monitored and keep up his occlumency lessons (big haha here). His other priority, I suppose, was making sure no student could be charged for the DA, by lack of proofs. And about using violence to resist arrest - wouldn't you resist in his place? Knowing they were a bunch of corrupted, bigoted, irresponsible politicians who were going to stick you into Azkaban without a trial because of a single sheet of paper, that, really, barely counts as proof without an OFFICIAL confession? (I don't think Dumbley's counts as official, he wasn't in front of a court.) And also, seeing them all so damn happy about it wouldn't make you want to give them the proverbial swift kick? But actually, I think Dumbledore wasn't the least bothered by them, or maybe he expected exactly that kind of reaction. The guy is 150 years old, Fudge was like his annoying grandson trying to trick him to look smarter than he really was (and failing). And who actually knows whether the spell he used actually hurt? Since he also used it against Shacklebolt, I have my doubts. Just because his office was half destroyed, it doesn't mean he did it himself. And as for Marietta, a memory changing charm performed by someone who knows what he's doing is probably not a danger to the target. Remember Mr. Roberts - all that Mr. Weasley said about him was that he'd be disoriented for a while. I don't think the consequences were something to be worried about. Elanor Pam From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Mar 21 22:46:59 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:46:59 -0000 Subject: Some more OOTP Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126403 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard Jones" wrote: > > I am continuing my rereading OOTP and I have some more questions that > > (2) How did LV know what was in the Department of Mysteries? In the > thoughts that Harry shares with him, LV has a pretty good knowledge > of the DoM. He even knows to go to row number 97. How could he know > this? Some of the Ministry employees may be DE's but wouldn't only > the "Unspeakables" know what exactly is in there? So is an > Unspeakable a DE? Hickengruendler: Yes, Augustus Rookwood, who was one of the DE who escaped from Azkaban in the middle of the book (along with Bellatrix) worked before his arrestment in the DoM. See Goblet of Fire, chapter "The Pensieve". Karkaroff tells Crouch, that Rookwood is a Death Eater, and in this scene it is mentioned, that Rookwood works for the DoM. Rookwood is also the one who tells Voldemort, that only Harry and Voldemort can lift the prophecy from the shelf. We see part of the scene through Harry's dream in the chapter "Seen And Unforeseen" in book 5. > > (5) Did Snape really expect Harry to see his "worst memory"? He was > furious afterwards, but did he really mean it? He got to show Harry > that his father was an arrogant jerk and he got an excuse to stop > giving Harry Occulmency lessons. If he is really working for LV, the > latter is the result he wants. Hickengruendler: I don't think Snape wanted Harry to see the memory. This memory showed Snape being humilitated, and I'm sure this is not something he wanted Harry to see. > > (6) Did JKR have Sirius give HP that special mirror just so that > Harry would feel guilty, or is there is something more? Will that > mirror return in HBP? Hickengruendler: The mirror will play another role. JKR said so in a chat, and I think it's on her website, too. Hickengruendler From dontask2much at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 23:49:35 2005 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (Charme) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:49:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Inside Bella - Social & Psychological Motivation References: Message-ID: <004b01c52e70$a38ae1d0$6501a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 126404 > "Charme" wrote: > > > Lucius is ambitious, >> logical, and determined, and Bellatrix is just chaotic and rash up > until the >> "action" really heats up. This leads me to believe that Bellatrix > is, for >> lack of a better phrase, a "warrior princess." > > a_svirn: > > I am sure you can find a better phrase. Just imagine a grovelling > Brunhild or Boddicea. I certainly can't. Charme: Errr, GI Jane? :) That's what I wanted to say initially, but figured someone, somehow, would be offended by that. One can be a "warrior princess" in the current popular culture definition and grovel. Just depends what you're grovelling for and about, I suppose. I see you give Bella a much more lofty stature than I do: I certainly don't think she's comparable to Brunhild and Boudicca, who were both queens. One can be a princess for life and never be "queen." Bella hasn't shown herself capable of a queenly rank and leading, IMO. Charme From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 00:15:09 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 00:15:09 -0000 Subject: Inside Bella - Social & Psychological Motivation In-Reply-To: <004b01c52e70$a38ae1d0$6501a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Charme" wrote: > > "Charme" wrote: > > > > > > Lucius is ambitious, > >> logical, and determined, and Bellatrix is just chaotic and rash up > > until the > >> "action" really heats up. This leads me to believe that Bellatrix > > is, for > >> lack of a better phrase, a "warrior princess." > > > > a_svirn: > > > > I am sure you can find a better phrase. Just imagine a grovelling > > Brunhild or Boddicea. I certainly can't. > > Charme: > > Errr, GI Jane? :) That's what I wanted to say initially, but figured > someone, somehow, would be offended by that. > > One can be a "warrior princess" in the current popular culture definition > and grovel. Just depends what you're grovelling for and about, I suppose. a_svirn: If you say so. > Charme: I > see you give Bella a much more lofty stature than I do: I certainly don't > think she's comparable to Brunhild and Boudicca, who were both queens. a_svirn: neither do I. > Charme: One can be a princess for life and never be "queen." a_svirn: true. From ryokas at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 00:26:02 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 00:26:02 -0000 Subject: Some more OOTP Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126406 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard Jones" wrote: > > I am continuing my rereading OOTP and I have some more questions that > I hope you can all help me with. (I tried to do some searches but > didn't get anything.) > > (1) Is Umbridge part troll? Does anyone else think that Umbridge is > part human and part something else? Troll? Also there are lots of > references to toads in how she looks to Harry. Is why she > hates "half-breeds" so much because she is one? There's little evidence either way, but I'd guess against it, as the trolls appear to be a race with a tendency towards evil (or general nastiness, at the least) and it'd conflict with JKR's themes of choice. Umbridge needs to be vile entirely because of her own volition. > (2) How did LV know what was in the Department of Mysteries? In the > thoughts that Harry shares with him, LV has a pretty good knowledge > of the DoM. He even knows to go to row number 97. How could he know > this? Some of the Ministry employees may be DE's but wouldn't only > the "Unspeakables" know what exactly is in there? So is an > Unspeakable a DE? A good point, and it's been stated that LV will have plants in the MoM. It seems like a safe assumption that there's some knowledge of what's going on in the Department going around, as Dumbledore was keenly aware of quite a few things. Then again, he and it might share some history. > (5) Did Snape really expect Harry to see his "worst memory"? He was > furious afterwards, but did he really mean it? He got to show Harry > that his father was an arrogant jerk and he got an excuse to stop > giving Harry Occulmency lessons. If he is really working for LV, the > latter is the result he wants. Snape's clean, says I, but he was also clearly a) bashful and b) neurotic about his worst memory. While knocking Harry's perception of James off its pedestal would've been a pleasant side-effect, the fury of an extreme invasion of privacy is of a different order of magnitude altogether. Come to think of it, what does using a Pensieve look like from the outside? > (7) In DD's exit scene, I noticed that DD didn't have a particularly > high regard for the truth or the law. No real question ? just an > observation. He lied about organizing the DA and about it having its > first meeting that evening and about plotting against the Ministry. > He used violence to resist arrest. He didn't mind Marietta Edgecombe > being put under a curse to modify her memory. DD is clearly on the sixth grade of whatever that thing is that my high school psychology book featured. He doesn't think that laws and regulations are intrisically valuable, but what value they may have comes from their effects. As such, an unjust law is no law at all. This requires considerable knowledge of what's going on and the intelligence to interpret it to work properly; luckily, DD ranks high on both. Kizor From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Mar 22 01:27:04 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 01:27:04 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: <20050321213226.90829.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126407 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: theotokos: > That is what I have always assumed as well. It makes so much sense although I cannot work out the logistics, and explains why Harry can simply say "find him" and all be well. If DD or others were able to magically *know* where someone was, why did DD need help from the portraits to find Arthur Weasley in the MOM? Pippin: Dumbledore needed the portraits to get help for Arthur -- he already knew where Arthur was, and so did the portraits, since Dumbledore had stationed him on guard duty. The portraits had to make sure that Arthur was found by the 'right' people -ones who wouldn't say he was in a restricted area. I think Privet Drive may have been unplottable until it was time for Harry's letter, which might possibly explain the cupboard business. My guess is otherwise Dumbledore does know where Harry is, unless Harry is in an unplottable location, such as the Chamber of Secrets or the graveyard in GoF. That would certainly shed some light on the time travel episode in PoA, wouldn't it. Hagrid found Harry at the hut on the rock. Arthur notes that Harry's Hogwarts owl has reached him at the Burrow and says that's because Dumbledore has found out he's there. (CoS) Fudge also was waiting to intercept Harry when he got off the Knight Bus in PoA, and no owls were involved, as far as we know. There is some canon that the Dursleys did try to get shut of Harry at least once. "Well, I won't deny that they are extremely angry, Harry, but they are prepared to take you back next summer as long as you stay at Hogwarts for the Christmas and Easter holidays. " --Fudge, PoA ch 3. That sounds to me like some bargaining had to be done. Pippin From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 01:40:03 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 01:40:03 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126408 Jen Reese wrote: I can't say for sure, but if you removed the Dursleys from the story and had Harry raised with Wizards, or made the Dursleys different characters or even changed the scope of the DD character to more of an interventionist type, I think some of the magic would be lost. In the first scenario we wouldn't get to see Harry enter the magical world for one thing, as he'd already be there. That was the hook for me, the magic of the story--Harry got a one-of-a-kind oppoortunity to leave behind this totally disastrous life to be a *wizard*. Who can't relate to having someone appear and say, 'this isn't who you really are, let me show you the magical world you really belong to." In the second scenario, making the Dursleys different characters, well there's a bit of room there but nothing which is compelling for me personally. Say the Dursleys are exactly as they are and raise Harry as a 'pampered prince' like Dudley. OK. Maybe JKR could get away with making Harry the same character he his now, but that would be a stretch. Some people say it's unbelievable that Harry is just a regular guy after being raised by the Dursleys, but that's not unbelievable to me. As a social worker in RL I meet phenomenal people like that all the time. It would be more of a stretch to have Harry be the character he is after being raised like Dudley, IMO. vmonte responds: Fantastic post Jen! I agree with you. I love the HP books because they tell children that they have power over their own lives. That no matter how lousy their family life may be they ultimately are the ones that can choose the path they will take. You can either decide to close your heart to love, or you can put the past behind you and choose love. There are quite a few characters in the HP books that have let their past "hurts" negatively influence their present behavior. These characters are forever stuck in a vindictive and or martyr-like loop. Their behavior is also infantile and sometimes cruel. It's kind of pathetic when you really think about it. Harry on the other hand is who he is DESPITE the abuse and neglect he received from the Dursleys. That's pretty amazing in my book! I think JKR is telling kids to take responsibility for their own lives. Vivian From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 02:00:40 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:00:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050322020040.60043.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126409 --- vmonte wrote: > > Harry on the other hand is who he is DESPITE the abuse and neglect > he received from the Dursleys. That's pretty amazing in my book! > > I think JKR is telling kids to take responsibility for their own > lives. I think we also underestimate how much kids actually know about the world around them. They know that bad things happen to people and that grown-ups are often blind to nasty things like bullies. They're aware that kids can be physically hurt or even killed - they do pick up horror stories from the news. And to present them with literature where everything goes the way it should go - ie, Social Services swoops in and chastises the Dursleys and rescues Harry - isn't the way it works in real life. There is plenty of that kind of kids fiction around and it's pretty boring. I strongly doubt that the Dursleys qualify as legally, criminally abusive parents. Yes, I know they locked him in his room and fed him cold soup - once, for about a week. And I've asked 2 social workers, 3 teachers and 1 cop about it: they all agree that realistically the Dursleys would probably get the equivalent of a severe talking to, mandatory counselling and about 6-9 months of monthly visits by the authorities to endure. The Dursleys as presented to us would be smart enough to get around those strictures without too much trouble. In an ideal, perfect world, they'd be in big trouble; unfortunately, we're stuck in the world we've got. I don't think kids would find those real-life "punishments" very effective. Much more appropriate to see Aunt Marge get literally blown up and to see the house-proud Dursleys' living room explode when Arthur and the twins come to pick up Harry in GOF. THAT really hurts. And Harry's attitude to them cannot be dismissed either: he is not terrified of them or even afraid of them. He demands his letters from Uncle Vernon in PS/SS, he faces them down in COS when he leaves in the middle of the night (he's mad as heck, not afraid), he even feels the first stirrings of empathy for Aunt Petunia ("his mother's sister") in OOTP. Post-COS, the Dursleys are a major inconvenience for Harry because they are people who can irritate him in countless little ways and he has to put up with them for a number of weeks every year. It's hard to keep up a polite facade with people you don't like in an office; living with them is ten times as bad. They're reminders of a life he can't wait to leave behind. The reason I haven't written the Dursleys off completely (which I might have done pre-OOTP) is that single comment of Aunt Petunia's that Harry was staying. If you want to believe that Dumbledore threatened her or bribed her years ago, fine. I don't. I think we're going to discover that she does have a small bit of humanity left inside her and that it came out when she was confronted by her sister's defenceless child at a time when she had an infant around the same age. She felt empathy for her sister's fate and her nephew's plight and it went far enough for her to give him a home. Not the love of a family, she doesn't have that much inside, but enough as Dumbledore said that she took him in. And that counts. And I think we're going to find out in the next two books that you've got to keep an eye out for that bit of humanity in all the characters, even the truly awful ones, to see if it's completely extinguished or not. Magda (who will no longer respond to the Dumbledore/abuse issue ever again because she doesn't want to be called names anymore) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From elfundeb at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 03:21:06 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (Debbie) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 03:21:06 -0000 Subject: House Elves and Slavery (Nel Question ## 1 & 2) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126410 House Elves: the second installment of Dr. Nel's discussion questions from his Reader's Guide to the HP novels. So, without further ado, Dr. Nel's questions: 1. Jonathan Levi said that GoF was "the first children's book to endorse slavery since Little Black Sambo." Do the Potter novels endorse the house-elves' enslavement? Consider the positions on elf rights taken by Ron, George, Mr. Weasley, Dobby, Winky, Hermione, Sirius Black and Harry. With whom are our sympathies supposed to lie? 2. If the HP novels endorse subjugation of the house elves, do they endorse enslavement? Or should we instead see Rowling as recognizing the limitations of social reform? Are we supposed to be outraged or sympathetic to George Weasley's statement that the house elves are happy (GoF, pg 211)? A related point: Hermione says that the house elves have been brainwashed into accepting their jobs. Should we agree with her? Do we see the means through which the elves are brainwashed? And the follow-up questions: A. Are the house-elves meant to be taken as literal beings, or are they meant to represent a metaphor for something? And if they are metaphoric, then what exactly is the message Rowling is trying to send through them? On the other hand, are we reading too much into the house elves? Could they be just another borrowing from folklore? B. Does the depiction of the treacherous Kreacher add an additional dimension to our understanding of house elves and their narrative function? Kreacher's description (as well as that of his sleeping quarters), which emphasizes his filthiness rather than the doll-like description of Dobby? What about his apparent endorsement of the racist views of the Black family? C. Consider the statements made by Dumbledore in OOP ch. 37, "The Lost Prophecy." For example, Dumbledore states that Sirius "regarded [Kreacher] as a servant unworthy of attention or notice. Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike . . . We wizards have mistreated and abused our fellows for far too long." How about Kreacher's treachery? Do these statements alter your assessment of JKR's intent, or reaffirm it? Is JKR making a point about the importance of respect? D. Many readers believe JKR is using the house elves as a means to explore racism. How does this compare with her treatment of other beings often cited for the same point, such as giants and werewolves? Are are there nuances in her treatment of different types of beings that suggest a different message is intended for each one? And, some examples of what's been said before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126224 Only a few days ago, Lupinlore asked about the future of SPEW http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/114016 Susana analyses the house elves' enslavement based on the behaviour of Dobby, Winky and Kreacher http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/109846 pentzouli sparks a thread by pointing out dangers to the WW of freeing the house elves http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102588 Eric Oppen discusses the differences between house elves and serfs http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100589 Annemehr discusses Kreacher and how attitudes can change in a society that accepts slavery http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90216 Tigerqueen starts a thread on why SPEW must fail http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/84611 Kneasy suggests the house elves may be no more than a depiction of folklorish brownies http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80752 DeeDee discusses the choice to be free available to the Hogwarts house elves http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/69863 Ebeth compares WW attitudes toward house elves to 19th century Americans http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/69124 Tigerpatronus compares the house elves' condition to slavery in the U.S. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/47966 Elkins explores the possibility that Winky was Crouch Sr.'s mistress http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39279 Ama writes on freedom vs. oppression http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39094 Gwen's introduction to the topic in 2002, with additional links to early posts on the subject (don't forget to read the ensuing thread) If you'd like to introduce a discussion topic (several are available, including Snape!), email me at elfundeb at comcast.net Debbie who still hasn't posted her response to the last question ************** For a complete list of the discussion questions, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Discussion% 20Summaries/ For the schedule, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125653 From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Sun Mar 20 06:04:29 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:04:29 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126411 Alla: > > Yes, I evaluate the "abuse" issue by our, "muggle" standards. :o) > Personally I believe that even though wizard children are more prone > to physical injuries, JKR did not drastically change the criteria of > abuse as though she is writing about alien race. Hence her statement > in the interview that Harry is abused ( the one where she talks > about Dudley being just as abused as Harry), but that is of course > just my personal belief. If JKR indeed is writing about the world, > where what was done to Harry is considered to be OK, I don't think I > like the morals of that world that much. John: Hmmm. I still feel we're many of us being perhaps a *teensy* bit too harsh on DD, in general, not just on this point. His priority, remember, was to keep Harry alive; invoking the blood protection by giving him to the Dursleys was the best, probably only, way to do that. BTW, I don't think we've by any means been given the full story on *that* particular matter?I adhere to that idea which's been floating around that Lily left some sort of loving imprint of herself in Harry's sub-conscience, so that he would hang on to the feeling that he had *some* worth as a human being, in spite of all that Durlsley- neglect. I also think DD knew about this. How else would Harry grow up to be the relatively healthy boy that we are introduced to in PS/SS? But back to my first point, try putting yourself in DD's shoes. The burden he bears, as the (very much) self-appointed protector of the WW, means that he is under a duty, nay *contract*, to keep alive the WW's, as he sees it, only hope of survival. Sure he's probably made some mistakes at different stages but it's none of our duty IMHO to act as any type of moral authority over him. Note that it's essentially a no-win situation DD is in; even if Harry and the WW survive, he'll have to live, or die, with the fact that he knowingly subjected Harry to some pretty tough times. We're obviously pretty lucky that we aren't likely to be faced with these types of decisions at any point in our lives. Not defending the Dursley's behavior, not saying I'm right, but that's just the way I see it. John. From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Sun Mar 20 06:21:15 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:21:15 -0000 Subject: Draco the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stickbook41" wrote: > > Given that JKR has said we would be very surprised about the identity > of the Half-Blood Prince, has anyone considered that it might be Draco > Malfoy? Not that I have any canon to support this, but it might be a > great vehicle for Draco's rejection by the Death Eaters, whom he > admires so much. > > I realize, of course, that this is very unlikely given how much > resemblance there is between Draco and Lucius; but it goes well with > the idea that Draco's own hubris will ultimately be his undoing. > Maybe I just like the idea of seeing the look on Malfoy's face when he > finds out he's not as pure-blood as he thought. John: I like, I like. Some clandestine liaison on the part of Mr and/or Mrs Malfoy, hmm? Now that *would* be interesting, *and* surprising. Now, who could the other party in this, er, collaboration to bring about young Draco be? John, hoping his post isn't subject to censorship by the list elves From lizthelucky at comcast.net Sun Mar 20 20:12:08 2005 From: lizthelucky at comcast.net (Liz the Lucky) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:12:08 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco the HBP? References: Message-ID: <007101c52d89$181d73c0$0300a8c0@yourkbv4bfa8sa> No: HPFGUIDX 126413 stickbook41 > Any other far-out suggestions? I have this wierd feeling the HBP is Grawp. No real reason. Just that JKR said on her website that he was the one good monster-related thing that Hagrid's ever done. And it does seem like she went to such an awful lot of trouble introducing him if the only reason he's there is to rescue Hermione at the end. Can't provide any more evidence than that, but {shrug} Hugs and Kisses, Liz the Lucky lizthelucky at comcast.net http://www.mindspring.com/~luckyliz From shunrata at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 21:31:30 2005 From: shunrata at gmail.com (Shunra Shunrata) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:31:30 +0200 Subject: avada kedavra - a question In-Reply-To: References: <01ec01c52747$8a082cc0$0100000a@Imma> Message-ID: <5b436afb050320133133626c80@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126414 A question on the origin of Avada Kedavra - As far as I know from learning Aramaic the original phrase was "avra kedavra" - "I will create with my speech" - i.e. it is a charm/spell/whatever of *creation*. In HP I see it as "avada kedavra" which may be seen as coming from the root "avad" to be destroyed - "I will destroy with my speech", which is pretty much what the avada kedavra is supposed to do. Does anyone know if this modification is intentional on JKR's part or whether she was just mistaken on the original phrase? Thanks muchly Shunra From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 21 07:11:56 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:11:56 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma - Protections and Perspectives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126415 Lupinlore wrote: >JKR just isn't the best in the world when it comes to keeping track >of implications and details. If it doesn't directly concern the >storyline she has envisioned, she tends sometimes to slide over >things, leaving all sorts of tangles and confusions and objections >in the wake of her pen. Karen: And never forget, she thought she was writing a story for children. I don't suppose she ever envisioned her books being psychoanalized to the Nth degree, by hundreds of pedantic obsessives (I'm including myself in that description, LOL) stretching from one end of the globe to the other! I know this is not stricty canon, but neither is what I am responding to and I do think that this is an important point that is often forgotten when people start getting heated. Karen From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 05:06:35 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 05:06:35 -0000 Subject: DD's Dilemma Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126416 bbkkyy55 wrote: > Bottom line, I don't think DD knew ALL the details of Harry's life > at the Dursleys Lupinlore replied: > This is possible, although as Alla says the fact that the letter > arrived addressed to Harry in the cupboard cuts against this. Bonnie (bbkkyy55): Certainly DD knew Harry was in the cupboard under the stairs, but that in and of itself does not constitute an abusive situation. It could have been a cosy, clean, nice little place. Harry was small, maybe he liked it. Didn't you ever play in a closet when you were small, I did. But did DD know the food was doled out rather unfairly. Did he know about the verbal abuse, yelling and other deprivations? It seems to me that only by being there on a daily basis would you know that. I really don't think DD is all knowing, as is illustrated in OOTP. He has his sources, but I don't think they know everything we as readers know. They don't live with Harry on a daily basis as we do. Unless some believe DD has little cameras and microphones stashed away all around and inside the Dursleys house. :) For instance, do they know about the rough time Harry had at school with Dudley and his gang. That, I believe, would have been the hardest for a young boy to deal with. No friends! Harry seems to have been able to deal with the Dursleys fine, but no friends! I think that's why he values Hermione and Ron so much. He's never had a friend. But I digress. Maybe what I'm saying is, Is it possible for DD to know as much about Harry's life as we do? I say no. Opposing views are welcome. :) Bonnie (bbkkyy) From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Mon Mar 21 07:24:01 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:24:01 -0000 Subject: Why does the WW fear Voldemort? (was: juvenile!Bella) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126417 > stickbook: > > I had the same concern--that Voldemort was coming across as more a > Charles Manson type than a Hitler. The only thing I can think of was > that Voldemort did his most of his public damage in a relatively short > amount of time. To many in the Wizarding World, he burst onto the > scene quite suddenly, even though he had been secretly festering under > the surface for many years (the Lexicon doesn't seem to have many > details to support or refute). Also part of the shock was that so > many witches and wizards seemed to agree with his beliefs. > > Maybe if the WW at large had been paying more attention they would > have nipped Voldie in the bud; but this is the same community that > believes that Harry survived only ONE Voldemort attack, and that is > unwilling to believe he survived the additional four. > John: Note the comment of Sirius (or was it Lupin?)in OOTP about many being all for the "purification" of the wizarding race, at least until Voldy showed his "true colours." So he was on the scene for a while before all heck really broke loose. I wonder what sort of hold he had already established by the time these colours were shown? Just speculation, of course, we really don't have enough canon at this stage. John. From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Mon Mar 21 08:21:50 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:21:50 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126418 > Jen said: >No, I love what JKR has done and see it as a package deal. Even > though I spend my time deconstructing the story, ultimately what >JKR > said in an interview is the lens through which I view the HP >series: > > "I sweated blood over that story to make it work, but it really >ame > from my heart. Only later can you start analyzing it. But you can > overanalyze, too. I had a woman tell me it was clear to her that > Harry was so abused that he becomes schizophrenic, and that > everything that happens from the point of the arrival of the letters > about Hogswart is his own escape into a sort of torture-fantasy. I > tried to be polite and say something like, 'Well, that would be >one > way of looking at it, I guess.' But I was kind of scared. One of >the > nicest things about writing for children is that you don't find >them > deconstructing novels. Either they like it or they don't like >it. " > (Book Links, 1999). > > Jen, who so loves Harry's story exactly as it is. John: Exactly! You know, I do think we tend to over-analyze these books sometimes. HP is, essentially, a form of escapism, a ripping good yarn about good versus evil. I don't think it should be viewed as a critique of contemporary society, or the Path of Liberation, or anything other then what it appears at the surface. Sure, "classic" literature will always transcend the motives of the author, but I don't think JKR's work is/should be viewed in that light. Her skill as a writer, I *think*, is that she knows what will best please today's audience. That, plus the fact that her books are very much a unique hybrid of many different genres. One other thing; I think we should very much just let JKR write the story the way she wants to, have things happen to characters that she wants to have happen to them, "cheat" with a prophecy here and there if she wants to. If we don't like some of these things, fair enough, but by looking for ways to "improve" the story as it currently stands/ saying "I'll be disappointed if she does *that*", we are overlooking one of the very things that has made these stories so appealing, to all of us; that JKR won't be dictated to when it comes to what she should or shouldn't include in her books. Just my opinion. John, who despite all of that will probably continue to "over- analyze" and lament certain aspects of the books anyway. From rlai1977 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 23:04:00 2005 From: rlai1977 at yahoo.com (rlai1977) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:04:00 -0000 Subject: Why did Draco do it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126419 Are we allowed to reply to a post that is roughly one month old? Anyway... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julia" wrote: > > I've just reread a few first chapters of PS/SS and there is one > think I can't stop thinking about. > > Why did Malfoy then, in the train, came into Harry's compartment? He > didn't do it just to take a look at Potter but he intended to have > him on his side. What for? > I can't think of any good explanation... Did Lucius tell him to do > this? or he was just curious? Actually we do have a definite answer to Draco's intent there... >From JK Rowling interview transcript, The Connection (WBUR Radio), 12 October, 1999: Malfoy, yeah, him. I read the first book at camp and how did Malfoy feel so strongly against him in the first book? JKR: Why does Malfoy dislike Harry so much in the first book? Yes. JKR: Well, if you notice the very first time that Malfoy meets Harry and knows that it's Harry, he makes an effort to be his friend. He does actually want to be associated with Harry because he knows that it would be cool to turn up at the school being Harry Potter's friend because Harry's so famous. So Malfoy is kind of --- he wanted to be Harry's friend, Harry didn't want him as a friend and that made him bitter. That`s the starting point. So I'd say the motive behind Draco's wanting to befriend (whatever befriending actually means in his little blond head) Harry was really simple and rather averagy-child-like :) From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 03:16:46 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 03:16:46 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry and DE Children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126420 > Alla: (snip) I will give Snape more points if he WILL indeed treat Harry > the same, because then at least I will know that he is honest in not > being able to distinguish between two Potters. If he starts treating > Harry nicely in front of Albus, I can only call him a hyppocrite, > who is scared enough of his boss to stop the bullying in front of > him, but continues doing so when nobody is there to protect he > students. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I was thinking about Snape, and how he has treated Harry, and I though maybe he has been obvious of how he feels about Harry in front of Dumbledore, but he woulden't have the same opportunity in the same fashion, like in potions class. But he has been rather odvious on how he feels, especially in the third book where he's railing on Harry and blaming him because Sirius gets away, and that was in front of DD and the Minister of Magic. But there is so much more going on between Dumbledore and Snape that is not obvious yet. As an adult it would be nice to read private convesations between the adult characters, but since the book is from Harry's point, we never really get that. But somehow I think Dumbledore is very much protecting Snape somehow, or is trying to change him or..I really don't know what..like in the very first book at the end when Harry is asking about Snape. "And there's something else..." "Fire away." "Quirrell and Snape--" "Professor Snape, Harry." Ok, It seems Dumbledore wants Harry to give Snape respect by calling him Professor and not just Snape, but even after Harry knows and has figured out Snape was trying to actually help him in this book, he obviously can't get past the things that happened in the classroom, to me very much like Professor Snape who is not able to get past how Harry's dad treated him. The history between them already has put them against each other. Harry is a kid, he obviously didn't have very good parents in the Dursleys, so he had no reason to learn to say Thank You. Of course Snape is an adult and should be able to see past this and just get over it, but I wonder why Dumbledore doesn't say more at this point to Harry, like, I know you can't understand, and you and Professor Snape do have your differences, but maybe it would be a good idea to offer Professor Snape your thanks for helping you..etc etc...or something like that. But on this note I'm wondering does Dumbledore know that Snape was helping Harry at the Quidditch match, does DD even know some of the things Snape was doing? He does say to Harry in the same coversation from above "I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even. Then he could go back to hating your father in peace..." So, its obvious to me...he must have known a lot of what Snape was doing or why would he say he worked so hard to protect you? So, did Snape inform Dumbledore of the things he did...and if not how does Dumbledore know he worked so hard?..hum..(bangs head..wants more from adult characters...please..just one..one private conversation please!!...ok I know we get them when the kids are sneaking around..so can we have more invisible cloak action..teehee) In the Chamber of Secrets we do see Snape give the three kids a hard time in front of the other Professors, hince the famous line from Dumbledore "Innocent until proven guilt, Severus." and right after DD said that the next line is Snape looked furious... So I am thinking DD had to be looking at Snape....and I know DD knows furious when he sees it. So...I am wondering can't Dumbledore take Snape aside and say..give the kid a break he's only 12...or I know you have problems with the past that you and James share..but Harry is not james...or at least something to that effect...but do we see the private convesations...meh no..its a kids book...I must remember that! (laughs) I really want to know more about Snape and Dumbledore's relationship, why he trusts Snape, why he seems inclined to give him so much slack in some situations, there is just something there. Ok, so Snape gave Dumbledore his story and DD believes him, at least thats what we got from JKR, so it must be a pretty good story. Either a really big truth or a really big lie..meh. I mean, if this 'story' would prove to everyone why Snape is how he is, and his reasonings etc etc, why can't Dumbledore share it with Harry, what is the reason. All we get is.."Its Private"...ok, there has got to be more reason than that if you ask me. (thinks these adults are not very good on the communication level here, no wonder Harry doesn't tell people stuff..he is learning from the adults around him IMO) I don't know (pulls out hair, Is suffering from book withdrawal...dang it July 16..CURSE YOU FAR OFF DATE! BAIN OF MY EXISTANCE!)hehe ...but I'm sure since this is a group for grown up's...we are all more interested in the adult characters. Plus the questions I have are probably the same darn questions everyone else has. So, until July 16, we will all pull out some hair, turn prematurely gray, curse the date of July 16, and surf the internet for every tidbit of news about the Infamous Half Blood Prince...To that I say, the HBP might not be Professor Snape or anyone for that matter...it might be a very tasty alcoholic beverage we will all want to drink before July 16th gets here. So..who's up for designing a HBP drink?? KarentheUnicorn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 03:54:20 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 03:54:20 -0000 Subject: House Elves and Slavery (Nel Question ## 1 & 2) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126421 Debbie: 2. If the HP novels endorse subjugation of the house elves, do they endorse enslavement? Or should we instead see Rowling as recognizing the limitations of social reform? Are we supposed to be outraged or sympathetic to George Weasley's statement that the house elves are happy (GoF, pg 211)? A related point: Hermione says that the house elves have been brainwashed into accepting their jobs. Should we agree with her? Do we see the means through which the elves are brainwashed? Alla: I am copying the answer to this question by Dave Witley in the message 39137, because I would like to get some clarification either from him or anybody else. :o) Davewitley wrote in message 39137: I will only address the question of brainwashing. I have mentioned before that there is a sharp distinction between the Dobby of COS and the elves, including Winky, of GOF. The latter *do* seem brainwashed. Dobby most definitely does not. If freedom is essentially an inner state of mind then Dobby is most definitely free right from the beginning of COS. He is carrying out acts in direct opposition to his master's plan. He knows what his masters are. He is able to choose what side he is on. He is able to express his gratitude to Harry for something that he has not, in fact, benefited from. He is able to use his powerful magic in furtherance of his ends. How is he not free? Furthermore, he describes the condition of house-elves in a way that leads the reader to believe that all are like him. In particular, he mentions that the owners of elves *in general* are very careful not to give clothes to their elves. The implication of this is that the magical element is sufficiently important that both sides must obey it. The natural reading of his words is that if, say Mr Crouch had inadvertently given Winky a sock to hold, the would *both* have had to accept that she was now free, *whether they liked it or not*. I think probably the explanation is that (as somebody pointed out in connection with Neville's memory) a magical condition, as described by Dobby, is being used as a metaphor for a psychological one, as observed by the trio in GOF. With JKR we seem to get both the symbol and the thing symbolised together, sometimes to our slight confusion as we are left with two valid explanations occupying the same intellectual space." Alla: I would like to know what Dave meant when he said that " a magical condition, as described by Dobby is being used as a metaphor fora psychological one, as observed by Trio in GoF." I often feel that symbols in HP series are not that simple as they may seem and since my thinking of House Elves is quite simple, I would love to understand the details of more sophisticated interpretations. Thanks! Debby: And the follow-up questions: A. Are the house-elves meant to be taken as literal beings, or are they meant to represent a metaphor for something? And if they are metaphoric, then what exactly is the message Rowling is trying to send through them? On the other hand, are we reading too much into the house elves? Could they be just another borrowing from folklore? Alla: See, here I go again. I confess that I had been thinking about this question earlier and I still don't know how we can think of house - elves as a metaphor for something ( except as metaphor for slavery, of course), but it just seems to be such on the surface interpretation. Debby: B. Does the depiction of the treacherous Kreacher add an additional dimension to our understanding of house elves and their narrative function? Kreacher's description (as well as that of his sleeping quarters), which emphasizes his filthiness rather than the doll-like description of Dobby? What about his apparent endorsement of the racist views of the Black family? Alla: Well, to me Kreacher represents the idea, which I am not sure JKR intended to. I think that House Elves should be treated as individuals and even though their plight as general SHOULD be abolished ( IMO of course), we are not obligated to feel sympathy for House Elves simply because they are enchanted ( enslaved, brainwashed, whatever). I like Dobby, I pity Winky, I hate Kreacher. Just my opinion of course, Alla From librarybookgrl at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 01:34:01 2005 From: librarybookgrl at yahoo.com (librarybookgrl) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 01:34:01 -0000 Subject: Emerald Snake Eyes / Harry's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126422 Chancie chnc1024 at A... wrote: > I suppose it is very possible that the green stones have nothing > to do with Harry's green eyes, and that they only lend to the fact > that Slytherin has green as a main color for their house's crest; > much like the fact that Godric Gryffindor's sword held rubies and > their crest is red. Still I guess the fact that it was green EYES > made me wonder, and the fact that it was stated on more than one > occasion. No, as a matter of fact, you are not alone on this. I have something to add to the speculations. I was reading an interview with JKR and she expressed dismay over a foreign book cover showing Harry without glasses. She said something to the effect that they didn't understand that his eyes were the key to his vulnerability. Now, how often are referenced made that Harry has his mother's eyes, whose were green, too? Interesting. "librarybookgrl" From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 04:05:20 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 04:05:20 -0000 Subject: Vernon's outbursts (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: <423C425C.000001.01400@KATHRYN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126423 k: > Vernon's outbursts only occur when Harry is involved. Chys: It's from Harry's POV so we only see what Harry knows. Perhaps he has outbursts around the others and Harry's not a part of that? I think he's just an overall abusive person. Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 04:35:28 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 04:35:28 -0000 Subject: Character Discussion: Ronald Bilius Weasley In-Reply-To: <20050320211356.53773.qmail@web25101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126424 Hans?: > Ron had a pet rat who personified the "blood-ego", or "desire-ego", < Chys: Percy had the rat first, does that make a difference? What about the relation to Voldemort? (Or I think you mentioned that, maybe.) Hans: > Ron: the mortal earthly personality which devotes itself to the New Soul and will thus sacrifice itself in the alchemical wedding for the King and Queen. Ron will enter eternity by dissolving in the alchemical processes and rising again as part of the Eternal Son of God. < Chys: Does that mean Ron's gonna get killed in the future, to save Harry? JKR mentioned more people central to the plot would die because that's just the way life is. Or perhaps do something terribly selfless for him? Hans: > None of the chakras die during the process of liberation, so we can feel safe that Jo won't kill Ron off. However, in his role as John the Baptist, who was beheaded, I feel sure Ron will make a tremendous act of self-sacrifice for Harry and Hermione. < Chys: *^^hadn't read this yet* Ok, if not for him, then does it for Sirius? I was wondering if the characters Animagus forms would make a difference. Hans: > I'd also like to remind you, and especially tell new members, about the "pricking of my thumbs" when I see the trio's initials, whose order Jo never varies: H.R.H.== His Royal Highness. And their "magical blood": Harry - ? blood, Ron - full blood, Hermione no magical blood. Together: 1? out of 3. The Half Blood Prince? The mind boggles. < Chys: Wow, didn't see that. Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 05:08:12 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 05:08:12 -0000 Subject: avada kedavra - a question In-Reply-To: <5b436afb050320133133626c80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126425 Shunra Shunrata wrote: > As far as I know from learning Aramaic the original phrase was > "avra kedavra" - "I will create with my speech" - i.e. it is a > charm/spell/whatever of *creation*. In HP I see it as "avada > kedavra" which may be seen as coming from the root "avad" to be > destroyed - "I will destroy with my speech", which is pretty > much what the avada kedavra is supposed to do. It also sounds like Abra Cadabra which was originally written out in a series of words and spoken as a chant and used to heal ill people. Chys From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 05:55:05 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 05:55:05 -0000 Subject: avada kedavra - a question In-Reply-To: <5b436afb050320133133626c80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126426 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shunra Shunrata wrote: > > A question on the origin of Avada Kedavra - > Tonks here: I think the Kedavra is suppose to be body as in dead body. A cadaver. And I think she was doing a take off on the Abrakadabra as well. Tonks_op From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 22 05:56:17 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 05:56:17 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "someoneofsomeplace" wrote: > > > > John: > Hmmm. I still feel we're many of us being perhaps a *teensy* bit too > harsh on DD, in general, not just on this point. > > > His priority, remember, was to keep Harry alive; invoking the blood > protection by giving him to the Dursleys was the best, probably > only, way to do that. That may be. If that is explained specifically, and the reasons why given, and the reasons DD never intervened given, I would say a good case for Dumbledore has been made. But it certainly hasn't been made yet. > > BTW, I don't think we've by any means been given the full story on > *that* particular matter?I adhere to that idea which's been floating > around that Lily left some sort of loving imprint of herself in > Harry's sub-conscience, so that he would hang on to the feeling that > he had *some* worth as a human being, in spite of all that Durlsley- > neglect. I also think DD knew about this. How else would Harry grow > up to be the relatively healthy boy that we are introduced to in > PS/SS? > That is certainly an intriguing possibility. Personally, I doubt it's the case, although my doubt isn't particularly strong. Like you say, it would explain a lot. > But back to my first point, try putting yourself in DD's shoes. The > burden he bears, as the (very much) self-appointed protector of the > WW, means that he is under a duty, nay *contract*, to keep alive the > WW's, as he sees it, only hope of survival. > > Sure he's probably made some mistakes at different stages but it's > none of our duty IMHO to act as any type of moral authority over > him. I would most vehemently disagree with the idea that we have no right to morally judge Dumbledore and his inaction. Now, we may have no DUTY to do so, however I think we have every right to judge him to this point, and to find him badly wanting, at least by the standard JKR seems to want him to exemplify. Note that it's essentially a no-win situation DD is in; even if > Harry and the WW survive, he'll have to live, or die, with the fact > that he knowingly subjected Harry to some pretty tough times. We're > obviously pretty lucky that we aren't likely to be faced with these > types of decisions at any point in our lives. Well, yes. I'm also never faced with the decision whether to take the country to war or not. However, I think I have every right to have a moral opinion about that decision. Once again, I, and many others, would be more inclined to be sympathetic toward Dumbledore if indeed we did see some of that anguish and tension people are postulating. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 22 06:01:25 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:01:25 -0000 Subject: DD's Dilemma In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126428 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bbkkyy55" wrote: > Bonnie (bbkkyy55): > > Certainly DD knew Harry was in the cupboard under the stairs, but > that in and of itself does not constitute an abusive situation. It > could have been a cosy, clean, nice little place. Harry was small, > maybe he liked it. Didn't you ever play in a closet when you were > small, I did. But did DD know the food was doled out rather > unfairly. Did he know about the verbal abuse, yelling and other > deprivations? It seems to me that only by being there on a daily > basis would you know that. > > I really don't think DD is all knowing, as is illustrated in OOTP. > He has his sources, but I don't think they know everything we as > readers know. They don't live with Harry on a daily basis as we do. > Unless some believe DD has little cameras and microphones stashed > away all around and inside the Dursleys house. :) > > > Maybe what I'm saying is, Is it possible for DD to know as much about > Harry's life as we do? I say no. Opposing views are welcome. :) > > Bonnie (bbkkyy) You may well be right, Bonnie. If so, it would be VERY helpful to have that explained to us. At the moment, though, we do have DD's statement about how "I have watched you more closely than you can have imagined." Does he mean just at Hogwarts? Or are the Dursleys included? If so why was Mrs. Figg in place? Just what DID Mrs. Figg tell Dumbledore in her reports? All of this is information that could go a very long way toward polishing Dumbledore's image once again in certain quarters -- or further demolishing it, as the case may be. Lupinlore From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 22 06:02:18 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:02:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Fred and George Message-ID: <20050322060218.30384.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126429 Who are the two mischief makers who get on so well with Harry? If the Weasleys symbolise the endocrine glands which are so important in the process of alchemy, Fred and George must surely personify the adrenal glands. There they sit, grinning on top of the kidneys, producing adrenalin. No wonder Jo connects them on three separate occasions with toilet seats. For aren't they sitting on top of the body's toilets? Their function is vital to the body as they regulate metabolism and water and salt balance. If they were to stop working we'd be dead in a couple of days. Their most important function is to maintain the body's energy level. If a sudden emergency arises they can enable the body to perform almost incredible feats of physical effort that are normally not possible. I've been assured most emphatically that the adrenal glands play a great role in manic depression. What has all this to do with Liberating Alchemy? It has everything to do with it, because it is essential to have our energy system in perfect balance. The question is: what do we do with our energy? Do we spend it on pointless things which please the ego or do we use it to help the new soul grow in us? In other words, are we supporting Harry or Voldemort? No wonder Revelation 2:23 says, "I am he who searches heart and kidneys". And Psalm 26 says, "Test my heart and my kidneys". This is to draw our attention to our adrenals glands and the need to spend our energy wisely. When the new soul force, the Divine Prana, reaches the part of the body where the adrenal glands are situated, these come under the control of the new soul-force, personified by Harry. This is why Harry gives them a thousand Galleons. The new soul-force is a golden colour and so when Harry gives gold we can be sure he is giving his power away, this time to the part of the body controlling energy. A person with a new soul will always spend his energy unselfishly, helping others in some way on the Path or to the Path. Harry has made friends with Ginny, and so the sexual force is under control. This is bent upwards and turned into creative energy. Fred and George are also great supporters of Harry and they help him keep his energy in perfect balance. As the navel chakra, the twins are a flower with ten petals, alternately red and green. It's probably a total coincidence (for once) that Fred rhymes with red and George has four letters the same as the word "green". But perhaps not, seeing Harry Potter is being written with superhuman intelligence. When we see them for the last time in book 5 they are wearing green dragon-skin coats. With their red hair they are the perfect symbol for the navel chakra! The energy which this chakra is associated with is emotional energy. When our inner Harry gives his gold to our inner twins we know that we have our emotional energy under control, as well as our physical energy. This obviously gives the apprentice alchemist a great feeling of balance, of having plenty of energy, and of emotional stability. Yer blood's worth bottlin, Jo! "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 22 06:08:56 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:08:56 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126430 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > > theotokos: > > [among other posts blasting DD for not intervening] > > > SSSusan: > EEEEK!! I'm not blasting DD for not intervening! I'm one of the > ones who thinks he truly did what he believed to be best. Now, I > may have *wished* he'd exerted a little influence over the years, > for poor Harry's sake, but I think that DD believed if he pushed too > hard, the Dursleys would've kicked Harry out. And I think JKR > probably thought it was clear to her readers that DD didn't feel he > had any choice. > > Just clarifying. :-) Actually, I'm not all that sure theotokos WAS referring to your post, Susan. In any case, I certainly thought you were clear. :-) And I'm glad you said "JKR thought," past tense. I hope she doesn't think that now. I know, I know, JKR is writing the books for herself, etc. But, if she really did INTEND to get that message across, I hope she now realizes she was not completely successful in doing so (not because of my posts or anyone elses, but because this debate has flared across every major HP website ever since OOTP came out). Lupinlore From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Mar 22 07:51:03 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:51:03 -0000 Subject: Vernon's outbursts (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126431 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Sage Lattes" wrote: > > > k: > > Vernon's outbursts only occur when Harry is involved. > > Chys: > It's from Harry's POV so we only see what Harry knows. Perhaps he has > outbursts around the others and Harry's not a part of that? I think > he's just an overall abusive person. Geoff: There is some canon evidence - not from Harry's POV - which suggested that he could get very worked up; not perhaps and outburst but certainly an internal rage. "But on the edge of town, drills were driven out of his mind by something else. As he sat in the usual morning traffic jam, he couldn't help noticing that there seemed to be lot of strangely dressed people around. People in cloaks. Mr.Dursley couldn't bear people who dressed in funny clothes - the get-ups you saw on young people! He supposed this was some stupid new fashion. He drummed his fingers on the steering wheel and his eyes fell on a huddle of these weirdos standing quite close by. They were whispering excitedly together. Mr.Dursley was enraged to see that a couple of them weren't young at all; why, that man had to be older than he was, and wearing an emerald-green cloak! But then it struck Mr.Dursley that this was probably some silly stunt - these people were obviously collecting for something... yes, that would be it. The traffic moved on and a few minutes later, Mr.Dursley arrived in the Grunnings car park, hismind back on drills" (PS"The Boy Who Lived" p.8 UK edition) He later became uneasy when he passed another group of oddly dressed people on his way to and from the baker's and also hears the name "Potter" spoken. And then he is hugged by a total stranger after they collide almost at the works entrance. I thing he is so "correctly" middle class that any deviation from what he and Petunia see as "normal" behaviour creates a reaction of anger or unease. So Harry collects the flak. He, after all, does not fit the mould.... This type of person is not uncommon. I know a few myself! From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 08:31:40 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:31:40 -0000 Subject: Some more OOTP Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126432 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard Jones" wrote: > > I am continuing my rereading OOTP and I have some more questions > ... > > Richard: (1) Is Umbridge part troll? > bboyminn: NO. I think she is a conservative pureblood, who believes in the pureblood ideal, but is not fanatic about it. She positively nuts, but not quite fanatic. While she may promote pureblood, she accepts muggle-borns are magical beings. That is a simple fact of life, that, like it or not, she can't avoid. Further, while she may dislike interbreeding of magic people and muggles, she abhors the interbreeding of magical people and other magical creatures (Hagrid), as well as any magical creatures who /looks like/ an intermix of wizard/human and non-human (centaurs). Her madness and irrational actions come from a lust for power that masks deep seated insecurities and inadequacies. > Richard: (2) How did LV know what was in the Department of Mysteries? > bboyminn: First, Voldemort has been around for a long time. Rough estimates place him in the area of 70 years old (give or take). He has a brilliant intellect, he is knowledgable and experienced, so it would not be that unlikely that he had a good general knowledge of the wizard world and the workings of the Ministry. By extention, he would be aware of the Department of Mysteries, and would likely know that they record and track prophecies. That covers the superficial knowledge; the detailed knowledge, like the actual row number, all came from Rookwood who used to work in the Dept of Mysteries. Notice that as Voldemort gains more information, Harry's dreams take him farther and farther into the Dept of Mysteries. The door to the revolving circular room never opened in any dream until AFTER Voldemort talked to Rookwood. > Richard: (3) How does the Pensieve work? > bboyminn: Let's start with a little experiment. Right now as you sit at your computer, without turning around, think about what the room behind you looks like. Assuming you are at home or the office, a place you are familiar with, don't you have a three demensional picture of what is behind you? Don't you have a three dimensional image of what your kitchen and bedroom look like? The Pensieve stores memories as three dimensional holographic /scapes/ or images, very similar to the function of the Holodeck in Star Trek. Even though Snape is sitting near the lake next to a bush reading his test paper, he still has a full three dimensional awareness of everything around him. He knows what Hogwarts grounds look like, he knows what James and friends look like, he knows where the beech tree is and who is sitting under it, and doesn't have to be looking direct at that scene to know what it looks like. The next logical question is, OK the visual hologram idea explain what we see, but how could Snape hear what James and friends were talking about? Simple, your brain takes in much more information than you are aware of. At work, at home, in a restaurant/cafe/coffee-shop, we tune out what is going on in the background. We concentarte on what our friends are saying and ignore what the people at the next cafe table are saying. But, and this is a big but, this is not a matter of what our ears or our brain hear, it's a matter of focus and concentration. Our ears and brain don't stop working simply because we focus our attention elsewhere, our subconscious still picks up that data. There have been demonstrations where under hypnosis, people were able to recall details of events (sights/sounds/etc...) that escaped their conscious mind as the events originally played out. So, if indeed a pensieve stored memory is similar to a hologram, that would explain how Harry can move in three dimensional space, and hear conversations that Snape wasn't consciously aware of. Am I right? Who knows. But it sound as good as anything else I've heard. > Richard: (4) Snape's worst memory. Snape put three "thoughts" into > the Pensieve so that Harry couldn't penetrate them. > bboyminn: First, let's consider that there is a likely difference between how many pensieve memories Harry sees Snape store, and how many he actually stores. Snape may have been stashing away memories for an hour before Harry arrive, and all we are seeing is Snape finishing up. > Richard: (5) Did Snape really expect Harry to see his "worst memory"? > bboyminn: Logic tells us that Snape stored several kinds of memories. Reasonably, he hid Order secrets that Harry should not know. Then he hid Voldemort secrets that Harry should not know. Then he hid personal secrets that, for a variety of reasons, Harry should not know. If there is a real chance that Voldemort at some point can enter Harry's mind and see scenes in the same or similar manner to what Harry can, then it would have been possible for Voldemort to see things that Harry shouldn't/couldn't/wouldn't have any way of knowing. Or, if Voldemort captures Harry at some point in the future and attempt to probe his mind using Legilimency, it would be very hard for Harry to explain how he happened to come by detailed memories of Snape's childhood. All things considered, I seriously doubt that Snape only hid three memories, especially after Harry had proven on occassion, that he could indeed probe Snape's memories. I think the particular memory that Harry saw in the pensieve was just random chance, a twist of fate. I don't think Snape (or Dumbledore) intended for Harry to see this. I think Snape's anger was genuine and justified. > Richard: (6) Did JKR have Sirius give HP that special mirror just so > that Harry would feel guilty, ...? Will that mirror return in HBP? > bboyminn: I think the mirror will be used in the same fashion as the Pocket Knife Sirius gave Harry. The knife was setup in one book, and used in another. The same will happen with the Mirror. I suspect Harry will be very tired of being out of the communcations loop, and with Hermione's help, he will enchant a few more mirrors so they (H/R/H) can keep in contact. Further, Dumbledore (or Lupin, or Arthur) may now have the other matching mirror, and Harry may use the two mirrors to communicate with the Order. Regardless of the exact arrangement, I think JKR introduced the mirror now with the intension that it really be used in a later book. > Richard: (7) In DD's exit scene, I noticed that DD didn't have a > particularly high regard for the truth or the law. ... > > Richard Jones bboyminn: Well, as others have already pointed out, the /Law/ was hopelessly corrupt. Think about all the loopholes in Umbrige and Fudge's case. Educational Decree or no Educational Decree, do you really think they could have made that case in any fair court? Certainly, an Educational Decree can restrict students and general teaching staff from forming clubs and holding meetings, but can it really have sufficient authority to prevent the HEADMASTER of the School from meeting with a group of his students? I think not. In addition, in court, a fair arguement could be made that it is the job of the Room of Requirements to manufacture exactly what the seeker is looking for; Umbridge wanted evidence, the Room created evidents. Even if it's a load of crap, in a fair trial it creates very real reasonable doubt. So, exactly what was Dumbledore great crime here? Planning to met with students? Independant of Educational Decrees and High Inquisitors, a Headmaster is well within his rights to meet with his students. Attacking Aurors and Ministry officials? Given the level of corruption and a cases based on flimsy trumpted up evidence, I think a fair point could be made for self-defense. Lying? Just a small lie or two for the greater good, certainly that can be forgiven, and certainly, it's not a capital crime. So, where is the real crime? Further, there is a big difference between doing what is legally right and doing what is morally right, especially in the face of the corruption and pervertion of that law by the very people entrusted to guard enforce it. When /Law/ itself becomes lawless, it loses it's authority. In the past we have discussed a particular system that outlines the stages of Moral development. Others are far more knowledgable than I am, so the best I can do is give you an overview. Oddly enough, those who ridgedly follow the rules/law are at the lowest stage of moral development. Those who make a genuine, heartfelt, conscionable choices seated in a clear and genuine moral sense of right and wrong are in the upper stages of moral development. Again, neither my explanation nor this system are intended to be an all encompassing explanation. So in the face of such blatant corruption, Dumbledore did what was morally right even if it wasn't legally right. Just making it up as I go along. Steve/bboyminn From kempermentor at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 09:08:58 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:08:58 -0000 Subject: Inside Bella - Social & Psychological Motivation... and the KKK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126433 Bboyminn: Several aspects come into play in any 'Bella'-like personality. The first aspect is POWER. This is very common in people who either feel or fear their own inferiority, whether it be rapist, oppressive bosses, or loud obnoxious kids at the mall. Each struggles for a sense of superiority while fighting against a sense of inferiority. One might ask, why does the bully bully? The answer is of course he does because he can. Even playground bullies have this false sense of superiority, and fear of not having it, that provokes them to prove again and again that they are superior, and can do as they damn well please. Kemper now: I think you are right on about the sense of inferiority driving some to seek superiority over others, but I disagree, in a sense, that a bully bullies because he can. Rather, he bullies because others allow him to: whether it's the victim not fighting back against the bully or the witnesses not telling the bully that his actions suck. Bullies only do as they damn well please as long as others allow it. bboyminn continues: Now as to how such an egotistical megalomaniacal self-important person can bring themselves to bow down to Voldemort, while complicated, is not really that hard to understand. In a sense, Voldemort is not /a/ Lord (title), he is THE Lord (supreme being). His teaching, his beliefs, his rhetoric is the seat of all power. He is the being that represents himself as the ultimate in this school of superiority. It is he, in whose veins flows the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself; the key and most significant figure in all of wizarding history, whose own beliefs validate their own. And validation is the key. I used the following statement in an earlier thread in a different context, but it fit this thread and it's context perfectly, especially when referring to power-crazy, self-supierior, cruel tyrannical fanatics; "That which does not validate me is not valid". In a twisted sense, respect and even worships Voldemort because he is the source from which she achieve all validity. Kemper adds: The twisted validation is an excellent theory on why Bella would bow. But I've been thinking since OoP, when Harry `outed' Voldemort, Bella had a seed of doubt planted in her regarding Voldemort. This would mean that she is starting to develop two conflicting world views. 1. Pure-bloods are Superior to non-pure-bloods 2. My Superior (the Dark Lord) is not a Pure-blood For Bella, these two views can't co-exist for long, one will need to win over the other. Bella will either believe: 1. Pure bloods are Superior to non-pure-bloods, so the Dark Lord is not my Superior or 2. My Superior (the Dark Lord) is not a Pure-blood, so Pure- bloods are not superior to non-pure-bloods This is cognitive dissonance. Which way will Bella go? Steve, in another post, suggested that Voldemort come clean about his heritage to the DE's, explaining his ire at the Mudblood who spoiled the bloodline of Salazar Slytherin and what he did to bring justice to that slight kill his Mudblood father and grandparents. This sounds believable to me. I can see Bella wanting to buy into it so that the dissonance, if not completely resolved is at least faded considerably. Charme & Tonks and many other posters: Charme - I start to feel she's bent towards zealotry, and even Nazism Tonks - I have often thought of Bella as Nazi like. I saw a PBS special a couple of week ago about the Nazis and the concentration camps. The show told of a woman SS officer that was worse than any of the men. When I saw that I wondered if she was the basis for Bella. I seriously wonder if JKR used the Nazis as the role models for the DE. If that were the case than this woman officer was the model for Bella. Many other posters ? Nazis DE's. Kemper now: I, too, thought of the Nazis as a way to equate the DE's to the Real World. But no longer. Now I think of the Ku Klux Klan instead. The Nazi's seemed to have more outward support of the community and didn't have to hide who they were. Whereas the KKK came about through some general held beliefs within the community but took those beliefs to the extreme. So extreme, in fact, that they had to keep their identity hidden and all that could be seen of their faces were eyes glinting through slits in hoods. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 09:46:05 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:46:05 -0000 Subject: House Elves and Slavery (Nel Question ## 1 & 2) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126434 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debbie" wrote: > > House Elves: the second installment of Dr. Nel's discussion > questions from his Reader's Guide to the HP novels. > > 1. Jonathan Levi said that GoF was "the first children's book to > endorse slavery since Little Black Sambo." Do the Potter novels > endorse the house-elves' enslavement? ...edited.. > bboyminn: Ah the elves, one of my favorite topics. Though I was disappointed to not see my post in your list. From my list of my posts, see message #126263. For my complete Q&A on elves see... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71752 Date: Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:01 pm Subject: House-Elves & the Tie That Binds. (long) Old news to most people, as I have frequenlty commented on the subject. There is one problem with comparing House-Elves to human slaves. Elves actively seek out people to serve, and humans are kidnapped and forced into slavery. House-elves and other mythical Helper-Elves are acting on their natural instinct much the way a sheep dog knows how to herd sheep. Serving is what they do, and they really are genuinely happy to serve. The problem isn't service or being bond for generations to their masters, that's just the way it works. Consider that many mythical Helper-Elves, including the Scotich legend Brownies upon which House-Elves are likely based, serve in secret. That is, the sneak into a house (shoe shop, tailor shop, etc...) perform their service, and in the morning seek away before anyone can find out about them. That shows a very great difference between elves and human slaves. Serving in secret didn't serve JKR's story, so she adjusted the legend to suit her needs. So, as I have said many times before, and contrary to Hermione's very colonial attitude, the House-Elves don't need to be fixed, there is nothing wrong with them. It is the wizards who need to be fixed. It's wizard's ill-treatment and exploitation of the Elves good nature and fierce loyalty that needs to change. Enslaved and unenslaved, the House-Elves, overtly or covertly, are going to seek out humans to serve. > 2. If the HP novels endorse subjugation of the house elves, do they > endorse enslavement? Or should we instead see Rowling as recognizing > the limitations of social reform? ...edited.. > bboyminn: My statements above should and my published works should give you a hint of where I stand. It is a great mistake to directly equate the House-Elves with human slaver in all it's forms on earth and in history. Within reason in some ways one could be analogous to the other, one could be used to illustrate aspect of the other, but to say that they are one and the same is plain wrong in my opinion. For one reason, we are not dealing with free-spirited human beings, we are dealing with a very instinctive ingrained nature of a mythical magical being; most importantly, intelligent sentient magical beings. As to any endorsement of the elves enslavement, the story isn't over yet. We don't know where it is going, or how it will play out, so we can't say with any certainty what the author is or isn't endorsing. Although, I would add that from a logical point, given what we know about the author, to think she would endorse this is ridiculous. As to how we should react to George and Ron's statements that the House-elves are happy, I think it's the truth. They are truly happy in their servitude. That is, they are happy and fulfilled by serving humans. But no being (human, magical, other) is happy being abuse, mistreated, and exploited. If there is any corruption in the general nature of Elves, it's in Elves having been convinced by wizards that extreme punishment and inhuman abuse are a normal part of being in the service of humans. And, oh so sadly, of our human race, their is some truth to that; we can be a cruel lot. > And the follow-up questions: > > A.Are the house-elves meant to be taken as literal beings, or > are they meant to represent a metaphor for something? ... Could they > be just another borrowing from folklore? > bboyminn: They are without a doubt borrowed from common folklore, and they are literal mythical beings. As far as a metaphor, I think the Elves are intended to be a mirror to humans, as I already said, we can be a very cruel self-serving greedy lot. Sadly, the most inhuman creatures on earth are humans themselves. Kind of ironic, eh? Further, I think part of the lesson here, is that we humans need to get over the idea that everything has to serve and validate us. Elves enter there servitude with a fierce honor and unwavering loyalty, sadly, humans do not enter that agreeemnt with the same sense of honor and loyalty. And, I think that will be the lesson here. Unless we follow the Golden Rule of treating everyone and everything with the same care and compassion that we would want for ourselves, we may find that everyone and everything in the world has turned against us. Certainly, there are great lessons to be learned here, but they are about the flaws in human nature, not in Elfin nature. > B. Does the depiction of the treacherous Kreacher add an additional > dimension to our understanding of house elves and their narrative > function? Kreacher's description (as well as that of his sleeping > quarters), which emphasizes his filthiness rather than the > doll-like description of Dobby? What about his apparent endorsement > of the racist views of the Black family? > bboyminn: Again we are faced with the failings in human nature, not in Elfin nature. Kreacher is a crazy and flawed as the humans who raised him. He is the product of the only frame of reference he has ever had; cruel, heartless, self-serving, and irrational. How could he be any different? On the other hand, we don't know all of Dobby's backstory. We don't know if his family has served the Malfoys for many generations. Without backstory, it's hard to make a judgement or comparison. As far as endorsement of the Black family racist views, I certainly didn't see any endorsement. I saw the flaws, I saw the failings, I saw the fanaticism, I saw the self-serving irrationality, but I saw no endorsement. > C. Consider the statements made by Dumbledore in OOP ch. 37, "The > Lost Prophecy." "... We wizards have mistreated and abused our > fellows for far too long." How about Kreacher's treachery? Do > these statements alter your assessment of JKR's intent, or reaffirm > it? Is JKR making a point about the importance of respect? > bboyminn: Again, I can only say that this aspect of the story is about the failings and follies of humans. In the end, I am confident that my statement that 'the Elves are fine, it's the wizards who need to be fixed' will be proven out. > > D. Many readers believe JKR is using the house elves as a means > to explore racism. > bboyminn: Just extending what I have already said, I don't think the point is racism, I think it is man's inhumanity to man. Or, perhaps in this case, human being's inhumanity to all other beings. > ...edited link list... > > Debbie From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 10:12:01 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:12:01 -0000 Subject: Draco the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126435 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stickbook41" wrote: > > Given that JKR has said we would be very surprised about the identity > of the Half-Blood Prince, has anyone considered that it might be Draco > Malfoy? <> > Any other far-out suggestions? > > - stickbook Doddiemoemoe: I still keep having that horrible dream of Peter Pettigrew being the HBP...I hope to all heaven I am wrong...because it makes anyone else being the HBP seem completely plausible!! LOL And in my mind I desire to hop on any bandwagon in the sad hopes that I could get rid of this stinking re'curring dream! Doddiemoe: (Who'd give just about anything for JKR to reassure in an interview that, "PP is definitely NOT the HBP!".. *heavy sigh*) stinkin' dreams absolutely useless..........unless........ they are.. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 13:48:34 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:48:34 -0000 Subject: FIlk: Viktor Krum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126436 To the tune of "Different Drum" by Linda Ronstadt To Dot aka Dungrollin. Great first filk, girlfriend! Scene: The infamous Yule Ball Brawl. Ron and Hermione have had it out in the Gryffindor common room, and now summarize their disagreements. Hermione: You and I have to disagree about Viktor Krum. All night tonight I was having fun, I could still feel your eyes on me. You try to tell me Harry's what it's 'bout, But really, Ron, you're such a lout- The beauty within me's what he sees. Ron: Now, don't get me wrong, Though he's in your pocket, It's not that Muggle thing 'bout a rocket*- He's a guy who wants to get info free. And now I'm not saying you're not pretty, All I'm sayin's he's playing dirty, And any person Harry sees Is prime to give him something that he needs. Hermione: Oh, Good night! I can't believe You could be so dense. And I cannot conceive you could come on much stronger. Next time, first you'll ask me. *Ron is referring to "Rocket Science" here. Ginger, ready to call it a day. From tmar78 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 14:04:06 2005 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:04:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some more OOTP Questions In-Reply-To: <1111461931.15852.7192.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050322140406.95838.qmail@web14121.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126437 Richard Jones wrote: (1) Is Umbridge part troll? Tyler: I seriously doubt it. A more likely explanation is that the good-looks fairy simply hasn't been kind to her. And let's face it, she deserves it. RJ: (2) How did LV know what was in the Department of Mysteries? Tyler: I also thought it was unusual that he knows EXACTLY how the place looks, detail for detail. That just doesn't seem possible, regardless of how vivid a description he may have received from Rookwood. Perhaps he's tried breaking into the DoM once before and was successful? RJ: (3) How does the Pensieve work? The Pensieve doesn't store "memories" exactly because Harry sees things from a third-person point of view, not from Snape's. Tyler: How's this for a theory? Perhaps it utilizes some of the "technology" found in a Time-Turner. To be more precise, perhaps it works this way: you put a memory in, the device analyzes it and determines where/when it occured. It then projects itself, in some sense, back in time to see what else was going on within close proximity of the recorded event. That way, when you play the memory back, you get a more objective view of what went on. RJ: (4) Snape's worst memory. Snape put three "thoughts" into the Pensieve so that Harry couldn't penetrate them. Are they all part of one "memory" or are there two more "memories" we didn't see? Tyler: I think there are two more memories, possibly related to crimes he committed as a DE. I hope JKR reveals the nature of these memories! RJ: (5) Did Snape really expect Harry to see his "worst memory"? Tyler: Somehow I doubt it. He seemed WAY too ticked off! RJ: (6) Did JKR have Sirius give HP that special mirror just so that Harry would feel guilty, or is there is something more? Will that mirror return in HBP? Tyler: I think it was to make him feel guilty, plus I think it'll pop up in either book 6 or 7, or both. It could become a handy plot device. RJ: (7) In DD's exit scene, I noticed that DD didn't have a particularly high regard for the truth or the law. Tyler: I think, to a degree at least, DD has an "ends-justifies-the-means" mentality. We see it when he leaves Harry w/ the Dursleys for 10 years in spite of their abuse. Its a mental trait we all have as well, to some degree. I think DD is pretty good about keeping himself from thinking and acting in this way most of the time. I think this was just one of those scenarios where he probably felt he had no other choice. Man, it feels good to be back! Haven't posted anything in forever. I've been really busy these past couple months, but I hope to now participate in the list more often. :) www.redmeat.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Mar 22 15:09:42 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:09:42 -0000 Subject: Character Discussion: Ron/Fred and George In-Reply-To: <20050322060218.30384.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: Geoff: Kust a couple of observations: Hans (in message 126429): > No wonder Revelation 2:23 says, "I am he who searches > heart and kidneys". And Psalm 26 says, "Test my heart > and my kidneys". This is to draw our attention to our > adrenals glands and the need to spend our energy > wisely. Geoff: I am intrigued to know which version of the Bible translates these verses in that way. I checked out some five translations in my possession and then visited www.biblegateway.com to check more. Almost every version I checked translates your two quotes as "heart and mind" except, curiously, the King James' Version which speaks of "reins and hearts". Hans (in message 126362): > I'd also like to remind you, and especially tell new > members, about the "pricking of my thumbs" when I see > the trio's initials, whose order Jo never varies: > H.R.H.= His Royal Highness. And their "magical blood": > Harry - ? blood, Ron - full blood, Hermione no magical > blood. Together: 1? out of 3. The Half Blood Prince? > The mind boggles. Geoff: Yes, but is it boggling at a JKR red herring or even just her style? The new book is entilted "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" - ie singular. One Prince. We are not thinking of a Half-Blood Royal Family! The Maths is interesting, that the pureblood/half-blood/bloodless mix comes to 50% but Hermione can in no way fulfil the title. Speculative fun perhaps.... From heos at virgilio.it Tue Mar 22 16:20:49 2005 From: heos at virgilio.it (chrusotoxos) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:20:49 -0000 Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126439 Hi! Just an useless post for you all: Harry wants to become an Auror, and for this he needs a high grade in Potions - which he will never have. My question is: will Harry be allowed to follow Snape's lessons and/or have his grades artificially upgraded (very wrong IMO), or he'll never be able to join the Aurors Academy (a life lesson, but very depressing) or...now that the danger is high, DD will finally give in and give the DADA lessons to Snape - finding another teacher for Potions and thus allowing Harry to continue it? I've read this theory in a fanfic (forgot which, sorry) and I like it a lot. If Snape teaches DADA, Harry will be forced to be active in his lessons, the subject is too much important to drop, and when he sees Snape's kowledge he might respect him more etc etc - so this means that Snape would endure sono internal struggle to be good even if he teaches DADA, and thus being good in the end... I think all this very probable, what do you think? Thanks and bye From pegruppel at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 16:57:44 2005 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:57:44 -0000 Subject: avada kedavra - a question In-Reply-To: <5b436afb050320133133626c80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shunra Shunrata wrote: > > A question on the origin of Avada Kedavra - > > As far as I know from learning Aramaic the original phrase was "avra > kedavra" - "I will create with my speech" - i.e. it is a > charm/spell/whatever of *creation*. In HP I see it as "avada kedavra" > which may be seen as coming from the root "avad" to be destroyed - "I > will destroy with my speech", which is pretty much what the avada > kedavra is supposed to do. > > Does anyone know if this modification is intentional on JKR's part or > whether she was just mistaken on the original phrase? > > Thanks muchly > > Shunra Peg: I believe (no references at hand) that you're essentially correct--it literally means "Let it be destroyed" and was aimed at a disease, not a person. It was originally a healing phrase. Another poster to the thread says that it was used as "abra cadabra." Yes, indeed, it was, but it's a corruption of the original "avada kedavra." I think JKR decided to use the literal meaning of the phrase for the death curse she needed as a plot device. The fact that most Westerners are more familiar with "abracadabra" as part of a stage magician's patter means that most people will at least see the similarity. I wouldn't be surprised if, in the next two books, we see Harry explaining to his uncle (if noone else) that he *didn't* say "abracadabra," he said "Avada Kedavra" and there's no relationship between what Muggles think it means and what it means to a witch or wizard in the Potterverse. Peg--off on a tangent. From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Tue Mar 22 07:28:52 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:28:52 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126441 > > > > > > > Lupinlore: > > > > > I would most vehemently disagree with the idea that we have no right > to morally judge Dumbledore and his inaction. Now, we may have no > DUTY to do so, however I think we have every right to judge him to > this point, and to find him badly wanting, at least by the standard > JKR seems to want him to exemplify. > John: I agree that we have a right to judge DD's *ACTIONS*, or inactions, as either good/bad/negligent; only then can such actions/inactions be appropriately dealt with. However, I don't think we have any right to judge DD the man. Just because he has made some arguably questionable decisions, we cannot ever IMO consider ourselves the moral authority over him. You know, I think it would perhaps be better were we have this sort of debate at the end of book 7, when all is out in the open. > > > >>Lupinlore: >Once again, I, and many others, > would be more inclined to be sympathetic toward Dumbledore if indeed > we did see some of that anguish and tension people are postulating. > John: What exactly do you mean by this? Just because DD isn't one prone to overt displays of emotion, should this be a reason for us to find him wanting in that respect? John. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 19:11:12 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:11:12 -0000 Subject: Some more OOTP Questions - Dept Mystery Details In-Reply-To: <20050322140406.95838.qmail@web14121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney wrote: > Richard Jones wrote: > > > RJ: > (2) How did LV know what was in the Department of > Mysteries? > > Tyler: > I also thought it was unusual that he knows EXACTLY > how the place looks, detail for detail. That just > doesn't seem possible, regardless of how vivid a > description he may have received from Rookwood. > Perhaps he's tried breaking into the DoM once before > and was successful? > > tyler maroney bboyminn: This does bring up a very interesting question. Certainly, Rookwood can tell Voldemort about the various rooms through which Harry will have to travel to get to the Prophecy, but the level of detail in the images Voldemort is transmitting is VERY high; precise details. How could Voldemort project with such precision with out ever having been there? Well, one explanation is that in his many years of life and in the wizard world, at some point he was in the Hall of Prophecies (on completely unrelated business). Another, and more likely, is that once Rookwood gave Voldemort the verbal details, Voldemort rounded it out by applying Legilimency to Rookwood to pull exact images of each room from Rookwood's mind. While I think that is entirely possible, it's highly speculative since we don't really have any direct knowledge of how Legilimency works. Snape clearly says it's not like mind reading, and we know that Voldemort and other skilled practitioners can use it to divine truth, but that's about the extent of our knowledge. Again, I think it is entirely possible, but I'm hesitant to rely on such gimmicks as the Time Turner, Veritaserum, Occlumency, Legilimency, etc... to solve every mystery that comes up. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 19:19:03 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:19:03 -0000 Subject: Leaning on the Dursleys was Hogwarts Teachers - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126443 Lupinlore wrote: > It is true that it would be easier to take Dumbledore's fears > seriously if Voldy weren't such a cartoon. But even if he were > pictured as believably as a gangster in a Martin Scorsese movie, > that would not resolve the issues. Carol notes: Pathetic as Voldemort's attempts at harming Harry have been for various plot-related reasons, he did succeed in Crucioing Harry and he wants Harry dead. Making a child sleep in a cupboard with spiders may be child abuse (or child neglect), but Crucio is a form of torture. Nothing that the Dursleys have done or tried to do compares with that. Nor have they repeatedly tried to murder him. Carol From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 19:55:57 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:55:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some more OOTP Questions - Dept Mystery Details In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050322195557.50277.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126444 --- Steve wrote: > This does bring up a very interesting question. Certainly, Rookwood > can tell Voldemort about the various rooms through which Harry will > have to travel to get to the Prophecy, but the level of detail in > the images Voldemort is transmitting is VERY high; precise details. > > How could Voldemort project with such precision with out ever > having been there? Two suggestions: Maybe he was there at some point - as a snake? Surely the night he attacked Arthur wasn't the first and only time he'd invaded the MoM. Or: At some point in the past, before he began his campaign of terror over 20 years earlier, he had been in the MoM and the DoM as a regular visitor. Which raises questions about his pre-VWI activities too. Magda (who likes both options for different reasons) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 22 21:07:46 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:07:46 -0000 Subject: We'll be "very surprised" by the HBP?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126445 Lately I have seen at least 3 or 4 references [see 125875, 126349, 126353, for example] to JKR's having said we would be "very surprised" to discover the identity of the Half-Blood Prince. For the life of me, I cannot find any such quote. Could someone who's actually heard or read this direct me to the source? Or would someone else like to join me in Skeptical Land? :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 21:15:06 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:15:06 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126446 This post contains some spoilers for the dragonlance series. Okay, I wanted to start a new topic that had nothing to do with house elves or DD. I was rereading when the dragonlance series when it suddenly struck me that Snape has a tremendous amount in common with Raistlin Majere. Both are bitter, sarcastic, biting men with little regard for rules, those they percieve as stupid, and weakness in themselves and others. Both wear a lot of black and even seem to have similar speaking patterns. Obviously both are wizards of there respective 'verses and both spend more than a little time on the dark side. Raistlin even eventually has his powers stripped away because of the chance he could backslide in to darkness, a la a recovering alcoholic. Very similar seeming to JK's reasoning about why DD never lets Snape teach DADA. Here is where my cognative dissonace comes in. I *loathe* Snape. there is nothing to like or love about the man and very little to even respect about him. I don't want him to ever be shown as right and I hope he's secretly evil just so someone can kick his behind. But Raistlin, a character so similar to Snape it's astounding, is one of my favorite literary characters of all time. Throughout the entire series of the novels I rooted for Raist. Even when he was at his worst, there was a part of me that desperately wanted him to redeem and patch up his relationships with his former friends. I found him entertaining, compelling, and sympathetic even when he was at his darkest. Why? What makes Snape so contempable to me and many other people, while similar literary characters can be just as dark and bitter and yet still remain sympathetic and understandable--even in their own way likeable. I do realize that Snape has his fans but he also has many detractors. For those of you who've read both series or another series with a Snape like character, what seperates Snape from them to make him either more or less likeable and sympathetic? phoenixgod2000, who thinks that anyone who hasn't read either the Dragonlance Chronicles or Legends needs to do so stat! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 22:41:50 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:41:50 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126447 Phoenix God: Okay, I wanted to start a new topic that had nothing to do with house elves or DD. I was rereading when the dragonlance series when it suddenly struck me that Snape has a tremendous amount in common with Raistlin Majere. Here is where my cognative dissonace comes in. I *loathe* Snape. there is nothing to like or love about the man and very little to even respect about him. I don't want him to ever be shown as right and I hope he's secretly evil just so someone can kick his behind. But Raistlin, a character so similar to Snape it's astounding, is one of my favorite literary characters of all time. Why? What makes Snape so contempable to me and many other people, while similar literary characters can be just as dark and bitter and yet still remain sympathetic and understandable--even in their own way likeable. I do realize that Snape has his fans but he also has many detractors. For those of you who've read both series or another series with a Snape like character, what seperates Snape from them to make him either more or less likeable and sympathetic? phoenixgod2000, who thinks that anyone who hasn't read either the Dragonlance Chronicles or Legends needs to do so stat! Alla: I am so glad you started this thread. Now, I have to confess that I have not read Dragonlance Chronicles, but I have a feeling that I will enjoy reading them, so if you could e-mail me the name of the author, I would be very grateful. Moving on. So, my attempt to answer your question may not be 100% accurate, but since usually Snape like characters are my favourite ones, especially in the fantasy books, I will try to do so anyway. There is indeed something which separates Snape from other similar characters and makes me like him not as strongly as I like ... Boromir from LOTR for example. Boromir as I mentioned earlier is my VERY favourite character from LOTR. I don't care for Frodo nearly as much as I care for Boromir. Now, I don't know if Raistlin Majere had ever been in the position of authority over children, if he ever had to be in ANY kind of teaching position, because if he was , my hypothesis will not work. I cannot forgive Snape's cruelty to the chidren. It is just that simple. I cannot justify it by anything. I just find bullying a child over something his father did to be SO very despicable, despite any possible justifications,which we may hear later in the series. I absolutely don't mind if Snape was being cruel to the adults ( Sirius, Remus, whoever) - I mean, I do mind, but I can certainly understand and forgive it. Harry and Neville thought are VERY different story. That being said, I cannot say that I don't like the character, because he has too much similarity to my favourite type, BUT I sure like him less than similar characters of different books. Just my opinion, Alla. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 22 23:02:11 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:02:11 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126448 Phoenixgod said: > Both are bitter, sarcastic, biting men with little regard for > rules, those they percieve as stupid, and weakness in themselves > and others. Both wear a lot of black and even seem to have similar > speaking patterns. Obviously both are wizards of there > respective 'verses and both spend more than a little time on the > dark side. SSSusan: Looks like your first two responses have come from people who've *not* read the dragonlance series. Sorry `bout that, but I did have a couple of comments to make. The one thing which stuck out to me when I read your summary of the two men's similarities was that you said they both have "little regard for rules." I don't have any idea if this could be a reason why you like Raist and detest Snape, phoenixgod, but I see Snape as actually having a *very* high regard for rules, indeed. I think he hates Harry enough just for being James' son, but I think one thing which puts his hatred over the top is that it pisses him off that Harry breaks rules *all the time.* If you think about Snape and his relationship to DD, for instance, have you ever seen him *not* follow an order or a request of DD's? He may express a difference of opinion or a reservation, but in the end, he does what he is asked to do. This seems to me to be the mark of a man who believes in order and following the rules. Alla added: > I cannot forgive Snape's cruelty to the chidren. It is just that > simple. I absolutely don't mind if Snape was being cruel to > the adults - I mean, I do mind, but I can certainly understand and > forgive it. Harry and Neville thought are VERY different story. SSSusan: I can't know whether this would be enough to explain the difference in your reactions, either, Phoenixgod, but this is a key for me, too, in how I feel about Snape. As much as I find Snape fascinating and *really* enjoy reading the scenes he's in, I could never *like* this part of him. As I've read more about narcissism, I've become convinced that JKR has drawn Snape as a totally, clinically narcissistic man, and that helps me *understand* his treatment of Harry & Neville a little more, but I still can't abide it. Doubt I was any help, but there you have it. ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From yutu75es at yahoo.es Tue Mar 22 23:04:22 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:04:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some more OOTP Questions - Dept Mystery Details References: <20050322195557.50277.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001801c52f33$7e745d40$8000a8c0@casa> No: HPFGUIDX 126449 > --- Steve wrote: > >> This does bring up a very interesting question. Certainly, Rookwood >> can tell Voldemort about the various rooms through which Harry will >> have to travel to get to the Prophecy, but the level of detail in >> the images Voldemort is transmitting is VERY high; precise details. > >> >> How could Voldemort project with such precision with out ever >> having been there? > > Magda answered: > Two suggestions: > > Maybe he was there at some point - as a snake? Surely the night he > attacked Arthur wasn't the first and only time he'd invaded the MoM. > > Or: > > At some point in the past, before he began his campaign of terror > over 20 years earlier, he had been in the MoM and the DoM as a > regular visitor. Which raises questions about his pre-VWI activities > too. > > Magda (who likes both options for different reasons) > > Me (Fridwulfa) There's a third option. If Snape, through legilimancy, can see flashes, images, of Harry's memories, I'm pretty sure that Voldemort, who is by far a better legilimens, can get an accurate picture, all he needs is access to Rookwood's memories and images of the different rooms, and he can get those no problem. Voldemort is the most powerful legilimens alive, or so they say, and Rookwood is willing to help, so... Piece of cake. Cheers, Fridwulfa > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from > posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 23:24:07 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:24:07 -0000 Subject: Some more OOTP Questions In-Reply-To: <20050322140406.95838.qmail@web14121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126450 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney wrote: > Tyler: > I also thought it was unusual that he knows EXACTLY > how the place looks, detail for detail. That just > doesn't seem possible, regardless of how vivid a > description he may have received from Rookwood. > Perhaps he's tried breaking into the DoM once before > and was successful? GEO: Or perhaps he viewed Rookwood's memories through a pensieve and thus was able to extract that level of detail through his viewing of it. From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 00:46:48 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:46:48 -0000 Subject: Vernon's outbursts (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Sage Lattes" wrote: > > > k: > > Vernon's outbursts only occur when Harry is involved. > > Chys: > It's from Harry's POV so we only see what Harry knows. Perhaps he has > outbursts around the others and Harry's not a part of that? I think > he's just an overall abusive person. > > > Chys Vernon does verbally abuse his coworkers/underlings at Grunnings (Sorcerer's Stone, American paperback page 4): "Mr. Dursley, however, had a perfectly normal, owl-free morning. He yelled at five different people. He made several important phone calls and shouted a bit more. He was in a very good mood until lunchtime..." Vernon yells at people and enjoys it. Lorel From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 01:07:27 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 01:07:27 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126452 SSSusan: Looks like your first two responses have come from people who've *not* read the dragonlance series. Sorry `bout that, but I did have a couple of comments to make. The one thing which stuck out to me when I read your summary of the two men's similarities was that you said they both have "little regard for rules." I don't have any idea if this could be a reason why you like Raist and detest Snape, phoenixgod, but I see Snape as actually having a *very* high regard for rules, indeed. If you think about Snape and his relationship to DD, for instance, have you ever seen him *not* follow an order or a request of DD's? He may express a difference of opinion or a reservation, but in the end, he does what he is asked to do. This seems to me to be the mark of a man who believes in order and following the rules. Alla: Hm. I don't know, Susan. In general, I tend to agree with you that Snape has high regard for rules, EXCEPT when his emotions get the best of him. For example , I seriously doubt that Dumbledore ordered Snape to let it slip about Remus' condition. Not really want to go there again, but I also don't believe that Dumbledore ordered Snape to stop Occlumency the way he did. So, yes, I do think that Snape does not always follow Dumbledore's requests. Although it is certainly possible that Dumbledore ordered Snape to do those things and we just don't know about it yet. JMO, Alla. From juli17 at aol.com Wed Mar 23 01:54:14 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:54:14 EST Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA Message-ID: <68.520c07d3.2f722646@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126453 chrusotoxos wrote: > Hi! Just an useless post for you all: Harry wants to become an Auror, and > for this he needs > a high grade in Potions - which he will never have. > > My question is: will Harry be allowed to follow Snape's lessons and/or have > his grades > artificially upgraded (very wrong IMO), or he'll never be able to join the > Aurors Academy (a > life lesson, but very depressing) Julie: I think it is possible Harry got a high enough grade on his OWL to move forward in Potions. I don't think he benefits from Snape's teaching methods, and certainly the personal antipathy between them doesn't help. But the final testing is administered by a third party, and with Snape not present Harry has one major distraction removed. I think Harry might have done better than even he expected. chrusotoxos: > or...now that the danger is high, DD will finally give in and > give the DADA lessons to Snape - finding another teacher for Potions and > thus allowing > Harry to continue it? I've read this theory in a fanfic (forgot which, > sorry) and I like it a lot. > If Snape teaches DADA, Harry will be forced to be active in his lessons, the > subject is too > much important to drop, and when he sees Snape's kowledge he might respect > him more > etc etc - so this means that Snape would endure sono internal struggle to be > good even if > he teaches DADA, and thus being good in the end... > > I think all this very probable, what do you think? > > Thanks and bye > Julie: I suspect Snape will eventually teach DADA, though probably not until the 7th book. I do agree that Harry will be active in the lessons, because he is very skilled in the subject. Even Snape's presence isn't going to affect Harry's confidence there. In fact, I suspect Harry will be better than Snape at DADA, and he won't hesitate showing it, which should add another dimension to Harry and Snape's relationship. Whether being upstaged by Harry will increase Snape's antipathy, or whether Snape will gain a grudging respect for Harry's skills (and Harry for Snape's) in what is sure to be a desperate time in the war against Voldemort remains to be seen. I, of course, hope for the latter :-) Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 23 02:09:09 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 02:09:09 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a "rules man"? (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126454 SSSusan: > but I see Snape as actually having a *very* high regard for rules, > indeed. Alla: > In general, I tend to agree with you that Snape has high regard > for rules, EXCEPT when his emotions get the best of him. > For example , I seriously doubt that Dumbledore ordered Snape to > let it slip about Remus' condition. > Not really want to go there again, but I also don't believe that > Dumbledore ordered Snape to stop Occlumency the way he did. SSSusan: I'm not sure the teaching of Occlumency itself was an *order*, but rather a request? (Though you're right that of course DD did not order Snape to stop the lessons.) I think you're right about strong emotion being the one thing which might get in the way of Snape's following rules. But in the Occlumency instance, I'd add that *Harry Potter* broke the rules by snooping in the Pensieve, quite possibly making it wholly justifiable (in Snape's own mind) to discontinue the lessons. Was it breaking a *rule* to tell that Lupin was a werewolf? I'm not sure. Perhaps. I don't think we know that DD forbade it, though it's likely that he did. Even so, I'm just not convinced these examples negate my inclination to describe Snape as a rules man. I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this, either pro or con. Siriusly Snapey Susan From jmrazo at hotmail.com Wed Mar 23 03:30:25 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 03:30:25 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126455 > SSSusan: > Looks like your first two responses have come from people who've > *not* read the dragonlance series. Sorry `bout that, but I did have > a couple of comments to make. > > The one thing which stuck out to me when I read your summary of the > two men's similarities was that you said they both have "little > regard for rules." I don't have any idea if this could be a reason > why you like Raist and detest Snape, phoenixgod, but I see Snape as > actually having a *very* high regard for rules, indeed. I misspoke. The problem when you talk about a series that someone else hasn't read. when I wrote that I was thinking more about the rules in regards to magic. Snape, by dint of his having learned a lot of the Dark Arts at an early age, showed a disregard for rules and strictures about what magic is *appropraite* to learn. Raistlin shows a similar disregard when learning his own style of magic. That's what I was thinking about when I typed that rules thing. In general, I would agree that Snape is more of a rules follower in general, in a petty hall moniterish sort of way. Raistlin is far more of an generalized rule breaker but something tells me that neither man would let little things like rules get in the way of learning something interesting. phoenixgod2000, who would pay to see either Raistlin or Tasselhoff get under Snapes skin. From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Wed Mar 23 03:36:42 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 03:36:42 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126456 I want to argue that Malfoy, LV's "slippery friend" (OOTP 33/650), is trying to play both sides of the fence at the same time: he wants to come out on top no matter who wins. He wants to become Minister of Magic if the good guys win and have LV killed by Harry and take over the dark side if the good guys lose. Maybe he'll exploit the knowledge that Bellatrix gained that LV is not a pureblood to get a rift started among the DE's with him leading those who want a pureblood in charge. On the one side, he has his flunky Bagman installed at the Ministry and was on the Board of Directors of Hogwarts before he messed things up in COS. He also is a generous donator to St. Mungo's. All of these are attempts to position himself powerfully in the wizarding world. On the other side, he wants to have keep Harry alive because only Harry holds the key to having LV killed. Two things point to this. First, notice that he saved Harry from being killed in the DoM. Second (and this is more speculative), I think he might have sent Dobby to Harry in COS to try to prevent him from going back to Hogwarts to protect him so that he would be alive later if LV came back to finish LV off for him. Malfoy was trying to get the monster in the Chamber of Secrets released to rid the school of mudbloods and to discredit DD, and he would not want a non-pureblood like Harry in danger if he needed him later. (I still don't know why Malfoy was trying to get Tom Riddle reborn. Maybe he didn't know that that would be a consequence of his plan or that the monster was a Basilisk. Did he know it was Riddle or just the "Heir of Slytherin"? There is no evidence in COS or GOF that LV knew of Malfoy's actions in COS.) How else could a House Elf go to help someone else except on orders from their masters? They are bound to serve "one house, one family" ? how else would Dobby go to help another even if Harry was responsible for the downfall of LV the first time and helped to improve the House Elves' treatment. (But this does not explain why Dobby keeps hurting himself when he is helping Harry.) Also, wouldn't Malfoy have noticed all the time his House Elf wasn't around? Also consider the fact that Snape apparently hangs out with Malfos ? Malfoy's "laddog" as Sirius called him ? and his loyalties are not exactly clear. It may be Malfoy who is the Order's spy, passing information through Snape. Is it another instance of playing both until a winner is clear? Of course, Malfoy now has a lot of explaining to do now that he has been caught in the DoM. But his silver tongue may get him out of it again, just as he did after the first war. But if LV helps him escape from Azkaban, then it will very hard for him to try to convince anyone that he really was on the side of the Ministry all along. In short, Lucius is just a power hungry opportunist with no convictions on either side. He can be sure to be on the winning side by being on both sides and becoming number one on whichever sides wins. Thus, he doesn't care who wins as long as he comes out on top. He's the paradigm of Slytherin ambition and sliminess. Richard Jones From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 03:46:33 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 03:46:33 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard Jones" wrote: > Of course, Malfoy now has a lot of explaining to do now that he has > been caught in the DoM. But his silver tongue may get him out of > it again, just as he did after the first war. But if LV helps him > escape from Azkaban, then it will very hard for him to try to > convince anyone that he really was on the side of the Ministry all > along. This is the big problem for me...if Malfoy is so smooth, so high up, he's still stuck doing the s***work along with everyone else at the end of OotP, and he's not important enough to rescue individually. When caught like he is, with a large group of fellow travelers, getting out legally is going to be nigh on impossible, especially given that we already know that Fudge is out. I think we have greatly overestimated Lucius' actual skills. He's wily in CoS, but his thuggish behavior (threatening families--not smoove) is not exactly the epitome of subtle. (Not that Slytherins, unlike in their fanon incarnations, are always subtle either.) And if he was primarily out for himself, I think he has been firmly put back in place by OotP. When Voldemort says "Hop!", he says "How high?". Perhaps you might consider that Lucius is, shockingly, a genuinely devoted ideologue. He's certainly not powerful or competent enough to be the Dark Lord in waiting, but he also seems to genuinely believe in the political ideals that Voldemort is pushing. The diary thing is admittedly very curious--does he know who and what Tom Riddle really is? Bella doesn't. One wonders if it works out consistently, though. JKR's points often don't and you'll drive yourself insane trying to make things work out completely coherently. -Nora gets back to less fun things (howdy, y'all) From stix4141 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 23 05:15:40 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:15:40 -0000 Subject: Subject: Re: The Future of SPEW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126458 stickbook from before: >Sounds good. However, what if Hermione manages to free the Elves en >masse, only to have them do more damage than good? Nicky Joe: I think the elves will end up being freed, although how JKR plans to pull off that little nugget is anyone's guess. Anyone have a guess? Stickbook, what do you mean by "more damage than good"? stickbook again: Just that the elves being free wouldn't automatically necessitate their joining the side of (for lack of a better term) the good guys. After all, Winky was not particularly pleased with freedom. What if turns out that the majority of the elves, now free to decide their own loyalties in regards to VW2, ending up taking sides with Fudge, or worse yet, Voldemort? Dave Hardenbrook wrote: >I think Jo has dropped numerous hints that House Elves are very, very >powerful magically. stickbook again: Yes, and what if that power was used *against* our heroes? To tell the truth, I'd be a little disappointed if Hermione frees all the elves JustInTheNickOfTime to have them all end up saving the day. The character would grow so much more upon the discovery that all the effort she put into "doing the right thing" turned out to be the wrong thing. Whether or not house elves end up liberated, I predict that SPEW will be a *dramatic* failure, and here's why. JKR's gift for naming people and things is always SO appropriate that it's a big part of what makes the story feel it could be real. SPEW sticks out like a sore thumb. Even though it's used as a comedic device, the fact that our brilliant Hermione couldn't think of a less unflattering acronym (along with the elves' own distrust of freedom) makes me think that Jo is setting us up to believe that SPEW is no big deal. After all, how many of us didn't give a second thought to Dumbledore's one-line "joke" in PoA about Trelawney's making a grand total of 2 real predictions? We're on to you, Jo! As a side note, all this is NOT to say that Hermione herself will ever relent in her passion for the elf-liberation cause--she won't. stickbook who apologizes for responding so late and then ranting From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 23 06:25:22 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:25:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Ronald Bilius Weasley In-Reply-To: <1111500309.62739.54248.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050323062522.31403.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126459 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 From: "Chys Sage Lattes" Hans: > Ron had a pet rat who personified the "blood-ego", or "desire-ego", < Chys: Percy had the rat first, does that make a difference? What about the relation to Voldemort? (Or I think you mentioned that, maybe.) Hans now: The point is that everything Ron owns is second-hand. The earthly personality doesnt own anything original. Its all handed down from others. Our body we get from our parents, our karma and our talents and faults we inherit from previous incarnations of our microcosm. Even our ego is given to us by Voldemort. Voldemort (see my previous posts) symbolises our microcosmic consciousness, and the ego in the solar plexus is the survival mechanism given to during the processes of transferring the life-forces to the foetus before birth. Hans: > Ron: the mortal earthly personality which devotes itself to the New Soul and will thus sacrifice itself in the alchemical wedding for the King and Queen. Ron will enter eternity by dissolving in the alchemical processes and rising again as part of the Eternal Son of God. < Chys: Does that mean Ron's gonna get killed in the future, to save Harry? JKR mentioned more people central to the plot would die because that's just the way life is. Or perhaps do something terribly selfless for him? Hans now: How exactly Jo will symbolise the alchemical wedding of body, soul and spirit I dont know. All three have to die in order to be resurrected but how this is to happen in Harry Potter I have no idea. I used to think Ron would be decapitated but I just dont see how this could be possible as Jo herself has said that dead is dead. Im absolutely sure of the message of Harry Potter, and Im Jos World No. 1 Fan, but Ive got to wait like all of you to see how its going to end. What I am sure of is that Harry will triumph against Voldemort and enter eternity together with Hermione and Ron. Ill have to make a new list of predictions. The previous one is out of date. Hans: > None of the chakras die during the process of liberation, so we can feel safe that Jo won't kill Ron off. However, in his role as John the Baptist, who was beheaded, I feel sure Ron will make a tremendous act of self-sacrifice for Harry and Hermione. < Chys: Ok, if not for him, then does it for Sirius? I was wondering if the characters Animagus forms would make a difference. Hans now: Sirius I believe is in the original Kingdom of God. Thats where he belongs and Harry will unite with him sooner or later, depending on whether he chooses to be a Bodhisattva and take Hagrids place. I think he will. The animagus form is of course a symbol of the characters purpose in the story. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From stix4141 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 23 06:35:58 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:35:58 -0000 Subject: House Elves and Slavery (Nel Question ## 1 & 2) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126460 bboyminn: Kreacher is a crazy and flawed as the humans who raised him. He is the product of the only frame of reference he has ever had; cruel, heartless, self-serving, and irrational. How could he be any different? now stickbook: I think the problem that a lot of us are having with that idea in particular regards to Kreacher is that in the series there's SO MUCH emphasis on overcoming a bad environment and ending up a good person. Harry, of course, springs immediately to mind, as does Sirius, Lupin, and (to lesser degrees) several other Good Guys. The flip-side of that coin is that those who don't overcome their bad environment end up being unlikeable, like Draco Malfoy, whose family life must be very similar to what Sirius's was. It's worth pointing out that the only exception to this rule so far seems to be Snape, but (as bboyminn pointed out with Dobby) we don't know his whole backstory yet. bboyminn: As far as endorsement of the Black family racist views, I certainly didn't see any endorsement. I saw the flaws, I saw the failings, I saw the fanaticism, I saw the self-serving irrationality, but I saw no endorsement. stickbook: But after Sirius instructed Kreacher to "get out," Kreacher didn't go wait by a bush in the garden, he *chose* to go straight to the Death Eaters. And JKR, via Dumbledore, reminds us regularly that what makes us who we are our choices. The question is, Does this idea extend to house elves? I tend to think it does--Dobby (in CoS) didn't have any trouble thinking for himself, even when it conflicted with his current master's values; and after he continued to think for himself after he was freed, when his freedom conflicted with the values of the elf community at large. bboyminn: Again, I can only say that this aspect of the story is about the failings and follies of humans. stickbook: Is Kreacher a messed-up individual? You bet. Is he blameless due his horrible environment? I have a harder time with that one. stickbook who is shocked to be disagreeing with bboyminn! From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 23 06:37:13 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:37:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Ron/Fred and George Message-ID: <20050323063713.23459.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126461 From: "Geoff Bannister" Hans (in message 126429): > No wonder Revelation 2:23 says, "I am he who searches > heart and kidneys". And Psalm 26 says, "Test my heart > and my kidneys". Geoff: I am intrigued to know which version of the Bible translates these verses in that way. Almost every version I checked translates your two quotes as "heart and mind" except, curiously, the King James' Version which speaks of "reins and hearts". Hans now: Thanks for that interesting point, Geoff. I took the liberty of changing reins into kidneys as I didnt think many members of HPfGU would know that word. Renes is the Latin word for kidneys and we can see how we get the words adrenals from that (ad = to). I also notice that many Bible translations omit the word unicorn and substitute buffalo. If theres a Biblical scholar amongst us Id be interested to know how such important (to me) differences can arise. Hans (in message 126362): > I'd also like to remind you, and especially tell new > members, about the "pricking of my thumbs" when I see > the trio's initials, whose order Jo never varies: > H.R.H.= His Royal Highness. And their "magical blood": > Harry - blood, Ron - full blood, Hermione no magical > blood. Together: 1 out of 3. The Half Blood Prince? > The mind boggles. Geoff: Yes, but is it boggling at a JKR red herring or even just her style? Hans now: I agree; it could be a red herring. The more you study Harry Potter the more mysteries you solve, opening the door to ten times as many mysteries again. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 23 06:42:44 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:42:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Percy Message-ID: <20050323064244.1415.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126462 Percy is the most interesting Weasley to write about because there is so much beauty I can tell you about him. If we continue our climb up the spinal column we now come to the heart chakra. This is of a reddish-golden colour. The gland associated with this chakra is the thymus. This initiates the body's immune system during childhood, and so we could compare it to a shield. However the most important role Percy plays in liberating alchemy is the formation of the Holy Grail inside the human body. The heart-sanctuary of the apprentice alchemist literally becomes a golden chalice which can receive and store the Blood of Christ. To understand this we should look at the plexuses which are situated here. Three plexuses are "inflamed" with the new soul-force, the Divine Prana which emanates from the new soul. These are the pharyngeal, the pulmonary, and the cardiac plexuses. Harry, the new soul, invades the whole body through the autonomic nervous system and he renders his shining gold to all parts of the body. Percy receives his share in the aforementioned plexuses. The pharyngeal plexus (at the pharynx) forms the rim, the pulmonary (lung) plexus forms the chalice and its base stands on the cardiac (heart) plexus. I hope it is clear from this that every seeker has the Holy Grail potentially present and all he has to do is commence the quest for the Holy Grail. Making the Holy Grail or finding it after a quest is a long, arduous process of intense purification. The Blood of Christ is the etheric substance of the Kingdom of God that is extended to the seeker by the Brotherhood of Christ once the seeker has finished making the Grail in his heart-sanctuary. Should any selfish desire enter the Grail it will crack and the seeker has to start again. Percy is short for Percival or Parsifal, a knight on the quest for the Holy Grail. We know from the legend of Parsifal that while on his quest, he sees a Golden City in the distance. He quickly hurries towards it, but when he arrives, it has disappeared. It turns out to be an illusion. Percy Weasley is also hurrying towards a Golden City, is he not? Is the Ministry of Magic not a golden city with its golden doors, sculptures, etc? We can be sure that before the end of book 7 Percy will have the same experience as Parsifal. His Golden City will go up in smoke and he will be left with a painful but very salutary disillusionment. Notice that Percy has turned his back on Harry in Book 5. He even tells Ron not to associate with Harry. This symbolises the fact that when a seeker has worldly ambitions he turns his back on the New Soul, and so he won't find the Holy Grail. We can be sure Percy will turn back to Harry in total loyalty before the end, and he WILL find the Holy Grail, without which Harry won't be able to achieve liberation. I should add in connection with Percy, and Charlie as well, that the Knight of the Holy Grail has two immortal faculties: the Pure Heart and the Word or Speech. The Pure Heart forms the knight's Shield, and the Word forms the Sword. With these two weapons the knight is invincible and can enter liberation. These two weapons are the heart chakra and the throat chakra respectively. I will leave the throat chakra for the post dealing with Charlie, but when the new soul reaches the heart chakra and the seeker succeeds in purifying his heart, he has a magic shield that gives him immortality. Purification is achieved by the seeker not allowing worldly emotions and desires to enter his heart. This is not done by force of will, but by self-surrender to the Lily in the heart. The lily is a symbol not only for the immortal spark of the spirit, but also for purity. If the seeker allows his lily to spread its power through his heart and does not deviate, he WILL purify his heart and thus gain the shield of immortality. And when the heart is purified, the seeker can earn the other immortal faculty, the Sword, symbolised by Charlie. We can be sure that all the Weasleys together will help Harry enter the alchemical wedding. Percy will be his shield and Charlie his sword. The sheer beauty of it all is mind-blowing! "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From stix4141 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 23 07:15:38 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:15:38 -0000 Subject: What DD always said... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126463 In a recent re-read of CoS, I noticed this passage: "We shall have to send all the students home tomorrow," said Professor McGonagall. "This is the end of Hogwarts. Dumbledore always said..." (Chapter 16: The Chamber of Secrets) And it's been sitting in my brain ever since. I really wish she'd have finished that sentence. Does anyone know what Dumbledore "always said"? stickbook who is feeling talkative From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 23 07:16:06 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:16:06 -0000 Subject: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126464 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: >Huge Snip > Now to one very important point, we have NO real evidence that > Slytherin was the pureblood-Nazi he is made out to be. All we really > know is that he didn't trust muggles, and given the times and > circumstances, that distrust was well founded, and note again, the > stakes were very high if anything went wrong. > > So, I can easily see how Salazar wanted to safely restrict Hogwarts > students to those of magical ancestry. It's the only way they could be > sure that the school would be safe from betrayal and attack. Of > course, the other, more open minded more liberal, Founders thought > that muggle-borns would not betray the school because in doing so they > would betray themselve by revealing their own magical ability to the > muggle authorities. Both very reasonable and justifiable positions. > > People, at later points in history, have taken Slytherins very > justified distrust of muggles, and used that as a foundation, > expanding it into some overblown pureblood mania. This is standard > operating procedure for tyrants who are trying to grab power. You take > the power of a famous person's name (validity by association), twist > and pervert his doctrine to your own ends (gee, that seems to make > sense), and given the masses an enemy to hate (Jews, Americans, > Blacks, muggles, take your pick) and to blame all their troubles on. > > We do know how people have perverted Salazar's beliefs, but we don't > really know what his own personal beliefs were other than he, > rightfully so, did not trust muggles. > > I have no problem seeing the conflict over the admittance of > muggle-born students escalating to the level it apparently did. There > was a lot at stake, and the consequences of a mistake were grave > indeed. Ultimatley, Slytherin saw that he was out numbered and could > not win, so he was face with warring with people he once counted as > friends, or leaving the school. I think, in leaving the school, > Salazar did a very noble and selfless thing. > > Not saying I'm right, but that's how I see it. > > Steve/bboyminn imamommy: Steve, this post was very well written, and I agree, although my husband pointed out that Salazar had to be at least a little loopy; he did, after all, leave a Basilisk to kill muggles even after he left. This prompted a discussion about what might have made ol' Slythy go round the twist. So, what if the Half-Blood Prince, whomever he is, was the *cause* of Sal Slytherin's descent from logical caution into madness? What if somehow this person betrayed him? The title of prince certainly seems to fit better with that time period than the current one. It also leaves the possibility of GG being the HBP open, although it could have been someone else. imamommy From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Mar 23 09:02:36 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:02:36 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4241CB5C.19491.D88CAC@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 126465 On 22 Mar 2005 at 21:15, phoenixgod2000 wrote: > This post contains some spoilers for the dragonlance series. As may mine. phoenixgod2000: > What makes Snape so contempable to me and many other people, while > similar literary characters can be just as dark and bitter and yet > still remain sympathetic and understandable--even in their own way > likeable. I do realize that Snape has his fans but he also has many > detractors. For those of you who've read both series or another > series with a Snape like character, what seperates Snape from them > to make him either more or less likeable and sympathetic? Shaun: OK - I have read both Harry Potter (obviously) and the Dragonlance Chronicles and Legends - though the last time I read Dragonlance was probably five years ago or so now. I've also read a smattering of the other Dragonlance books over the years. Having said that, I would say I am more sympathetic to the character of Snape, in general, but I can see some reason to be sympathetic to Raistlin's that *may or may not* apply to Snape. We know more about Raistlin's uprbringing in my view than we do about Snapes - we have snippets about Snapes. The major reason I regard Snape more positively than Raistlin is because Snape strikes me as a man who has *genuinely* swung between evil and good. He was evil (when he was a Deatheater). He is now good (as a member of the Order). That is, of course, open to debate - but it's the way I see it. Of course, if he's deceived everyone, I'd have to reasess. With Raistlin, it's different. People reading this should be aware that the Dragonlance books were written as a tie in to scenarios and a gameworld for the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (AD&D) game. At around the same time as the original Dragonlance Chronicles (the first three novels that started the Dragonlance series) were released, a series of AD&D Modules in which you could play the characters was released. The world of Krynn in Dragonlance is an AD&D gameworld. It follows the rules of the AD&D game (generally - there were some particular changes made for the specific world). In AD&D, the concepts of Good and Evil are not really debatable and abstract. It is a feature of the game that every creature has an 'alignment' - an absolute statement of whether they are (among other things) Good or Evil. Not every AD&D/D&D game follows this, a lot of players and Dungeon Masters actually hate the concept and abandon it in their games, but it is a feature of the 'offficial' game, and as the Dragonlance novels were official products they subscribe to it. Alignment has two axes in the game - but only one - the Good, Neutral, Evil axis is relevant to what I am saying here, so I'll just use those three terms. Now an interesting feature of the Dragonlance world is that Mages (Wizards) wear robes that indicate whether they are Good, Neutral, or Evil. Good Mages wear white, Neutral Mages wear red, Evil Mages wear black. There are rare renegades who break the rules, but even most renegades seem to follow them. As the Dragonlance Chronicles begin, Raistlin is a Red Robed mage - he's neutral. This does make him unusual as most, if not all, of the companions are good, but there is a real distinction between neutral and evil. Over the course of the Chronicles, Raistlin becomes black robe - but it's the reason he does this is why I regard him as far worse than Snape. Because while Snape in my view, genuinely swings between evil and good - Raistlin becomes evil for one major and primary reason. He deliberately chooses to do so, because he wants power and he sees the black robes as his path to power. Raistlin is ambitious - he'd definitely be a Slytherin. Incidentally, he's also studious, brave, and very hard working. But ambition overall. To me, *deliberately* choosing to be evil in order to become powerful... that is *really* evil. Raistlin was neutral until he made that choice - and his actions before and after his choice indicate to me that if he wasn't seeking power, he still would be. Raistlin is, in my view, pretty close to Voldemort, in fact. But there are still a few other factors to be considered. Raistlin has a twin brother - Caramon. Caramon is almost the opposite of Raistlin in many ways - Raistlin is the weak scholarly wizard, Caramon the immensely strong, physical, warrior. Caramon loves Raistlin. Loves him incredibly. It's more or less unconditional love. And though Raistlin tries to reject it - as he rejects everything that doesn't lead to power - he never really *quite* succeeds. Caramon helps him hold onto a shred of humanity in my view, so he never quite falls as far as Voldemort (though he does become immensely more powerful and successful). Raistlin also had a pretty hard childhood. He almost died (and was saved only by the love and dedication of his elder sister Kitiara - who also, incidentally turns to evil). There may be some parallel with Snape there - but Raistlin was protected by his siblings to an extent. We don't really know if anyone protected Snape if he did have a hard childhood as many of us believe. Perhaps the greater insight we have into Raistlin than Snape... the Dragonlance Legends (the second series of three books in the Dragonlance series - these six books are probably considered the core DL books - there are a huge number more by a lot of different authors, but these are where it started - the three Tales books might be included as well, but are quite different) were about the twins, Caramon and Raistlin, so we get to see a lot more of them than we do of Snape... perhaps that greater insight makes Raistlin more sympathetic in some ways. We get to see much more of what makes him tick. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From technomad at intergate.com Wed Mar 23 10:03:21 2005 From: technomad at intergate.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 04:03:21 -0600 Subject: DD and Snape Message-ID: <004101c52f8f$8c8ce580$5f570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 126466 People on here have wondered what went on between DD and Snape; why did Snape turn from the Dark Side, why did he go to Dumbledore, why does Dumbledore trust and believe in Snape, even when Snape is being a gigantic jerk? I would be very unsurprised to find that the reason for a lot of this stuff is that Snape is DD's grandson, or something similar. That would account for the trust between them, and for DD's willingness to forgive Snape for shenanigans that, frankly, had they been committed by somebody working for me, would have resulted in an immediate sacking. The WW is small, and mostly inter-related. Snape would about have to be "pure-blooded" enough to get into Slytherin House, not to mention being pure enough to join the DEs. That would increase the chances that he and DD are kin. If Snape is DD's grandson, or possibly even a son ( we don't _know_ that "Severus Snape" is his real birth name, after all, or that "Albus Dumbledore" is the real birth name of the Headmaster---magical initiations are often accompanied by the adoption of a new name to symbolize a new life, rather like baptism or initiation in various religious contexts) that would account easily for why Snape is protected by Dumbledore, and why he agreed to work against the DEs. "You want to kill _my grandfather?_ My dear old, sweet, white-haired grandpa? I think NOT!" It might be that I'm barking up a completely wrong tree---but if Snape turns out to be close-enough kin to DD for DD to protect him, I'll say "I told you so!" *going back to pacing the floor impatiently, counting the minutes until the next book's in my hands* From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Mar 23 12:00:10 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:00:10 -0000 Subject: We'll be "very surprised" by the HBP?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126467 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > Lately I have seen at least 3 or 4 references [see 125875, 126349, > 126353, for example] to JKR's having said we would be "very > surprised" to discover the identity of the Half-Blood Prince. > > For the life of me, I cannot find any such quote. Could someone > who's actually heard or read this direct me to the source? Or would > someone else like to join me in Skeptical Land? :-) > http://www.iharrypotter.net/books/year5/ I did a google search, and found this reference in an archive of speculaton about OOP (it's not dated, but it appears to be circa 2002, early 2003) to an alleged interview (not the interview itself) in which JKR was quoted as saying that we were going to be "very surprised" when we discover the identity of the next GQT captain. I wonder if that quote (in itself a little suspect) somehow got transmogrified into the statement about the HBP. - CMC (who will be surprised on July 16 whether JKR said it or not) From kcartweel at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 20:45:00 2005 From: kcartweel at yahoo.com (kcartweel) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:45:00 -0000 Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "chrusotoxos" wrote: > My question is: will Harry be allowed to follow Snape's lessons and/or have his grades > artificially upgraded (very wrong IMO), or he'll never be able to join the Aurors Academy (a > life lesson, but very depressing) or...now that the danger is high, DD will finally give in and > give the DADA lessons to Snape - finding another teacher for Potions and thus allowing > Harry to continue it? I've read this theory in a fanfic (forgot which, sorry) and I like it a lot. > If Snape teaches DADA, Harry will be forced to be active in his lessons, the subject is too > much important to drop, and when he sees Snape's kowledge he might respect him more > etc etc - so this means that Snape would endure sono internal struggle to be good even if > he teaches DADA, and thus being good in the end... That's what I've been thinking. I do not think that Harry did good enough on the exam to take potions from Snape, and if all of a sudden the rules change just for him, I'd be mad. However, the loophole I see is if Snape does DADA and they get a new teacher to do potions (could it be the half blood prince?) or DD does it himself. That way Harry can study to be an Auror. OR.. Snape is potions, does not take Harry, DD teaches Harry himself to make up for being stupid in book 5. OR.. how about Harry just training to be a DADA teacher instead.. I mean it is the only subject he is good at really. Wish the book was out already, ~Kels From angelicfront5 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 20:02:33 2005 From: angelicfront5 at yahoo.com (Lauren Thibeault) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:02:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some more OOTP Questions - Dept Mystery Details In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050322200233.16011.qmail@web14927.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126469 Steve wrote: > > How could Voldemort project with such precision > with out ever > > having been there? Magda Grantwich wrote: > Two suggestions: > > Maybe he was there at some point - as a snake? > Surely the night he > attacked Arthur wasn't the first and only time he'd > invaded the MoM. > > Or: > > At some point in the past, before he began his > campaign of terror > over 20 years earlier, he had been in the MoM and > the DoM as a > regular visitor. Which raises questions about his > pre-VWI activities > too. Lauren: What about the possiblity of them using a Pensieve? If Rookwood put his memories of the DoM into a Pensieve and let Voldemort look at them (like Harry did with both Dumbledore and Snape) then he would have those percise visions wouldn't he? From apollovibes at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 21:10:16 2005 From: apollovibes at yahoo.com (apollovibes) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:10:16 -0000 Subject: Some more OOTP Questions In-Reply-To: <20050322140406.95838.qmail@web14121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126470 Tyler: I think it was to make him feel guilty, plus I think it'll pop up in either book 6 or 7, or both. It could become a handy plot device. apollo: Not sure if it was truly intended to make Harry feel guilty just to feel guilty. But with that guilt he's realizing (albeit slowly) a need to think plans and actions through and to pay attention to what he's offered regardless of arrogance (recalling his thoughts on the gift) to become the competent wizard (or leader perhaps) that he needs to be. So maybe it's a catalyst (and maybe a plot device as RJ said) for Harry and his growth. Everything Harry's done has been "right" - sort of - with some major stumbles along the way. He saved the Philosopher's Stone, Ginny and Sirius. Then he came back alive from the graveyard.... Even though Cedric was murdered Harry never really thought they were in danger - a bit odd circumstance maybe. Harry wasn't or shouldn't be held at fault and he should not feel that way. He made a noble decision to share the trophy with Cedric, no one (obviously not even Dumbledore) would ever think that would lead to Cedric's demise. However when Harry knows someone is in danger or has reason to believe someone is, he's intuitive (to a certain point) and intent on helping - good qualities for a start, but again, lack of thought and plan are holding him back from being a true leader. He had options, but wouldn't look past his arrogance to see them. I'll go as far to say he was blinded by it (as pointed out by Snape): forgetting about Snape being in the Order and easily gone to the dungeons for help - would risk much less trouble for him or his friends - minus snide or rude remarks from Snape of course. Adam / apollo From silvanaroven at yahoo.de Tue Mar 22 21:59:50 2005 From: silvanaroven at yahoo.de (Silvana Roven) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:59:50 +0100 Subject: AW: [HPforGrownups] Snape, Potions and DADA In-Reply-To: <1111508981.76752.4014.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126471 Hi Chrusotoxos, > Hi! Just an useless post for you all: Harry wants to become an > Auror, and for this he needs > a high grade in Potions - which he will never have. > why? In OotP we learn that Harry did just fine in his OWLs - perhaps because Snape was not around. So he might have reached an "outstanding" already and therefore be allowed in Snape's Potions class. Only JKR knows. *shrugs* Greetings Silvana From blibbering_humdinger at yahoo.com.au Wed Mar 23 07:11:56 2005 From: blibbering_humdinger at yahoo.com.au (blibbering_humdinger) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:11:56 -0000 Subject: We'll be "very surprised" by the HBP?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > Lately I have seen at least 3 or 4 references [see 125875, 126349, > 126353, for example] to JKR's having said we would be "very > surprised" to discover the identity of the Half-Blood Prince. > > For the life of me, I cannot find any such quote. Could someone > who's actually heard or read this direct me to the source? Or would > someone else like to join me in Skeptical Land? :-) > Ron: I'm fairly certain JKR did *not* make this comment. Like you I've seen several references made, but have no idea as to its source. Maybe it's one of those "unofficial" comments, made privately to someone at one of the book days? Ron. From shunrata at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 21:27:32 2005 From: shunrata at gmail.com (Shunra Shunrata) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:27:32 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: avada kedavra - a question In-Reply-To: References: <5b436afb050320133133626c80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b436afb0503221327753f0f91@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126473 Tonks_op: > I think the Kedavra is suppose to be body as in dead body. A > cadaver. And I think she was doing a take off on the Abrakadabra as > well. I would tend to believe that any resemblance to cadavar is accidental. > Peg: > > I believe (no references at hand) that you're essentially correct--it > literally means "Let it be destroyed" and was aimed at a disease, not > a person. It was originally a healing phrase. My observation was that the "avada" itself is a change from the "avra" of the original Aramaic phrase. Avra is creation, Avada is destruction. I am surprised at JKR's accuracy in the modification. Maybe I shouldn't be. > Another poster to the thread says that it was used as "abra > cadabra." Yes, indeed, it was, but it's a corruption of the > original "avada kedavra." In Aramaic "b" and "v" are written with the same letter, and can only be distinguished if the word has vowel notations. So Avra Kedavra easily becomes Abracadabra. > I wouldn't be surprised if, in the next two books, we see Harry > explaining to his uncle (if noone else) that he *didn't* > say "abracadabra," he said "Avada Kedavra" and there's no > relationship between what Muggles think it means and what it means to > a witch or wizard in the Potterverse. And do you think Uncle Vernon will be willing to listen? :) Shunra From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 13:04:06 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:04:06 -0000 Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126474 Chrusotoxos, Hi! Just an useless post for you all: Harry wants to become an Auror, and for this he needs a high grade in Potions - which he will never have. Silvana: why? In OotP we learn that Harry did just fine in his OWLs - perhaps because Snape was not around. So he might have reached an "outstanding" already and therefore be allowed in Snape's Potions class. Only JKR knows. *shrugs* Alla: There was a nice discussion recently about whether Harry gets an O or E on his Potions OWL. Personally I tend to agree with you Silvana, I don't think that O is out of the question, IF he was lucky that day, but I do think that at least E is very likely. I strongly doubt that Snape gets DADA in HBP, because I am not sure that those reasons Dumbledore had not to give him the position suddenly dissappeared. I think Harry wil get in Potions Class one way or another, but as you said only JKR knows. :) JMO, Alla. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 23 13:07:03 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:07:03 -0000 Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126475 "chrusotoxos" wrote: > > My question is: will Harry be allowed to follow Snape's lessons > and/or have his grades > > artificially upgraded (very wrong IMO), or he'll never be able to > join the Aurors Academy (a > > life lesson, but very depressing) or...now that the danger is high, > DD will finally give in and > > give the DADA lessons to Snape - finding another teacher for Potions > and thus allowing > > Harry to continue it? Kels replied: > That's what I've been thinking. I do not think that Harry did good > enough on the exam to take potions from Snape, and if all of a sudden > the rules change just for him, I'd be mad. OR.. > how about Harry just training to be a DADA teacher instead.. I mean it > is the only subject he is good at really. Hannah: I think that Harry will get an 'O' for his Potions, and that Snape will teach him. The other theories are interesting, but in my opinion, that is what JKR has set up in OotP. The interaction between Harry and Snape is an important part of the books, and enjoyed by most readers. She's going to have him teach Harry something. If JKR intended to make Snape DADA teacher, why did she go to all the effort of explaining (via McG) that Harry would *have* to take Potions the following year? And then dropping all those hints that he could achieve the required standard (his feeling that both exams had gone well, the hints that Snape marks more harshly than the OWL examiners, the stuff from Umbridge about the class being advanced...) If JKR was going to have him as DADA teacher, she'd not have bothered with that. Instead, she'd have set Harry (and us) up to think 'great, no more Potions, no more Snape' and then given him a very nasty surprise at the start of term feast. There are things that DD can teach Harry, and I hope he will teach him, or at least offer him some sort of guidance (the book covers seem a good indication), but I don't think Potions is one. I think DD will have far more interesting and important things that he can teach Harry about defence, and about himself. I would say DD's likely to teach Harry Occlumency next year, rather than Potions. I've never liked the theory that Harry might become DADA teacher himself. How is he supposed to teach NEWT level stuff when he's still only a 7th year? How could he hope to keep control of the Slytherins, and the older students - and even the younger students? And finally, how can Harry possibly do his own NEWTs when he's got a full time teaching schedule? JKR tries to show that Harry is, in essence, a normal kid. Although he's at Hogwarts, and has the prophecy and all his adventures, he's still somehow 'just like us.' It's part of what makes the books, and the character, so appealing. Whatever else is happening, Harry still has to go to lessons, do his homework, struggle to learn new spells, pass notes with his friends... if Harry was made into some sort of junior teacher, then that normalcy, the very thing that readers young and old identify with, is taken away. Oh, and JKR has said that she doesn't think Harry is suited to an academic career ie. he's not going to be a teacher. Harry has the DA, that's where he gets to do his bit of teaching. He doesn't need a more official role to go with it. Hannah From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 13:16:03 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:16:03 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126476 > > theotokos: > > If DD or others were able to magically *know* where someone was, > > why did DD need help from the portraits to find Arthur Weasley in > > the MOM? > > SSSusan: > Exactly! I don't think they DO know. I think the *owls* know > (somehow!), and as long as a letter is in an owl's possession, the > ink on the envelope will re-write itself to be accurate upon > delivery. Finwitch: I think they're using Self Correcting Ink to write the addresses... and Aberforth may have used Auto Answer Quill at Hogwarts... (and the other things banned from OWL-examinations...) It's interesting that there ARE several ways to magically aid answering questions, but you're not allowed to use them in exams. Anyway, it seems to me that some, if not most - Owls take letters to the place where the person SLEEPS - (Owl waiting on Harry's BED at Hogwarts in GoF) or EATS (Owls arriving during the breakfast). Maybe it's just staying in the same place for longer than a minute... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 13:35:20 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:35:20 -0000 Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126477 > > Alla: > > There was a nice discussion recently about whether Harry gets an O > or E on his Potions OWL. Personally I tend to agree with you > Silvana, I don't think that O is out of the question, IF he was > lucky that day, but I do think that at least E is very likely. > > I strongly doubt that Snape gets DADA in HBP, because I am not sure > that those reasons Dumbledore had not to give him the position > suddenly dissappeared. > > I think Harry wil get in Potions Class one way or another, but as > you said only JKR knows. :) Finwitch: Well, I think it's entirely possible for there to be more teachers - particularly now that Voldemort's back and even the Ministry admits it. So - I'd say that either Harry does get an 'O' for his Potions Owl or we get two persons who teach Potions. And that *other* person could be Nicolas Flamel, and Perenelle could be teaching DADA... (I know Dumbledore said the Stone was destroyed, and most likely believed it was, but... 'enough elixir to set his affairs' - he could live up to one thousand with what he has left, or maybe he fooled Albus to believe he had destroyed the Stone or...) Anyway-- I'd like to actually meet the Flamels, who both were older than Albus Dumbledore is now back when Sir Nicolas de Mimsy- Porpington was executed... well, I don't know how old professors Marchbanks and Tofty are, but I think the Flamels are older by far... At any rate, I do wish we get to meet the Flamels! (and see how they would consider Albus Dumbledore & all the rest as *young*. And if they truly outage rest of the wizards by a century, an AGELINE set to six hundred and fifty is enough to protect the Stone... Maybe NF did fake it and the stone Harry got from the mirror was just a bait!). Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 13:56:37 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:56:37 -0000 Subject: DD's Dilemma In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126478 Bonnie: > Maybe what I'm saying is, Is it possible for DD to know as much about > > Harry's life as we do? I say no. Opposing views are welcome. :) Lupinlore: > You may well be right, Bonnie. If so, it would be VERY helpful to > have that explained to us. At the moment, though, we do have DD's > statement about how "I have watched you more closely than you can have > imagined." Finwitch: Well, I do think that 'Albus Dumbledore'-Chocolate Frog Card could be doing that for him. Possibly even Harry's wand-core (via Fawkes). And whatever-alerts-the-ministry-of-Harry-using-magic at Dursleys. And Mrs Arabella Figg. He may even have something akin to Marauder's Map, showing Privet Drive & Magnolia Crescent & Harry's school; he may have a clock like Mrs Weasley's showing Harry -- so yes, plenty of ways for Dumbledore to keep watch on Harry and not have the knowledge on just how bad it was for Harry to live among his Muggle relatives. Hagrid has better idea, after Harry told him what Vernon did to Hedwig (did he do something about it? After all, Hedwig was no longer padlock-caged in PoA), but it's Ron (and F&G) who know more. As for Vernon not trying to kill Harry-- I disagree. He *has* tried to kill Harry by means of starvation; in OOP he tried to strangle Harry... and what of Petunia nearly hitting Harry with a frying pan on the head? Or death by the dehydration over weeding the garden in heat? I'm surprised Harry survived the Dursleys, myself. Finwitch From pegruppel at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 14:14:48 2005 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:14:48 -0000 Subject: avada kedavra - a question In-Reply-To: <5b436afb0503221327753f0f91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126479 Shunra wrote: > In Aramaic "b" and "v" are written with the same letter, and can only > be distinguished if the word has vowel notations. So Avra Kedavra > easily becomes Abracadabra. > > > I wouldn't be surprised if, in the next two books, we see Harry > > explaining to his uncle (if noone else) that he *didn't* > > say "abracadabra," he said "Avada Kedavra" and there's no > > relationship between what Muggles think it means and what it means to > > a witch or wizard in the Potterverse. > > And do you think Uncle Vernon will be willing to listen? :) > > Shunra Now Peg again: I never cease to be amazed--I get language lessons along with a book discussion group! Very interesting stuff. Back to the AK. I had second thoughts after I posted that *Harry* would be the one to explain the difference between Avada Kedavra and abracadra. What if Petunia does it? We know that she knows *much* more about the WW than she's been willing to admit. Vernon would believe her, and with his recent encounter with the Aurors (plus some) at the train station, he's at least going to listen to Petunia. At least one would think so, but he's a thick-headed fool to begin with, and it's really hard to guess how he might react. A frightened, thick-headed fool, so he's even less predictable. Now that I'm on the subject, I wonder if it's possible that Petunia will have to confess to how much she knows and how she knows it, if she does tell Vernon the difference between AK and abracadabra. Hmmm. More food for thought on Petunia. Peg From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Mar 23 14:38:35 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:38:35 -0000 Subject: Kidneys and the re'em was Re: Character Discussion: Ron/Fred and George In-Reply-To: <20050323063713.23459.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126480 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: > Hans now: > Thanks for that interesting point, Geoff. I took the liberty of changing "reins" into "kidneys" as I didn't think many members of HPfGU would know that word. Renes is the Latin word for kidneys and we can see how we get the words "adrenals" from that (ad = to). > > I also notice that many Bible translations omit the word "unicorn" and substitute "buffalo". If there's a Biblical scholar amongst us I'd be interested to know how such important (to me) differences can arise. > Pippin: I don't claim to be a Biblical scholar but maybe I can shed a little light on this. According to a note in Tanakh, the English translation of the Hebrew scripture prepared by the Jewish Publication Society, the literal meaning of the phrase in Psalm 26 is "kidneys and heart" . The text uses "heart and mind." I could add that 'kidney" has also been used figuratively in English to mean temperament or nature, as "a gentleman of that kidney." As for the unicorn, in seven different places, the Hebrew scripture refers to an animal called the re'em. Even in ancient times, no one was sure what it was, though from its description it was large, fierce, and horned. The Greek translation known as the Septuagint used the term monoceros, later Latinized as unicorn. Modern scholars think the re'em was some kind of buffalo that was already extinct when the Bible was first translated. Of course we know better, since FBAWTFT tells us that the re'em are actually giant oxen with golden hides. Pippin, pleased to have found a canon point to hang this explanation on. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 23 15:12:35 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:12:35 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a "rules man"? (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126481 > SSSusan: > > but I see Snape as actually having a *very* high regard for rules, > > indeed. But in the Occlumency instance, I'd add that > *Harry Potter* broke the rules by snooping in the Pensieve, quite > possibly making it wholly justifiable (in Snape's own mind) to > discontinue the lessons. > > Was it breaking a *rule* to tell that Lupin was a werewolf? I'm not sure. Hannah: I always think of Snape as a rules man, yet when I come to write this post, I find it hard to justify exactly why I think that. Snape certainly seems to be playing by some sort of rules, I'm just not sure whose. Probably his own. I would say he has a strong sense of honour and of justice; strong but twisted. Snape is not fair in his treatment of Harry. Yet he seems to fanatically believe in some form of justice. Thus Snape wasn't breaking a rule when he revealed the truth about Lupin, at least, not one of his own rules. He beleived that, thanks to the Prank, Lupin deserved some form of retribution. And, following Lupin's omission to take his potion and night spent on the rampage, perhaps he also believed it was right to let the truth out, thus removing the dangerous Lupin. Snape's treatment of Gryffindors, in particular Harry and Neville, could also be justified *in his mind* by his belief in justice. Gryffindors tormented him at school, so it's his *right* (he believes) to get back at them by treating the Gryffindor students badly. Warped, of course, but Snape is certainly that. Likewise, he feels he can torment Harry because of what James did to him. And maybe - my new favourite theory - the Longbottoms, as Aurors, did something to Snape that means he now victimises Neville in revenge. Maybe they killed one of his Death Eater friends. Maybe they refused to believe he had switched sides. Potions - something Snape has an exceptional talent for - seems to be all about following rules very exactly and precisely. Snape also would appear to have a skill at logic, despite his irrational behaviour. Snape strikes me as the sort of man who would apply logic so rigidly and absolutely that he actually ends up with completely wrong conclusions when he applies it to something as illogical as human nature and life in general. I think those things point to him having a set of highly personal rules that he sticks to rigidly. They may not be the same as everyone else's rules, to the point that he is happy to show a Slytherin disregard for the conventional rules that do not tie in with his own warped belief in justice and honour. I don't know if that made sense, it's kind of hard to express. Just my opinion anyway. And I'm not saying that Snape believing his behaviour to be right actually makes it right, just that it could explain it in light of him still being a 'rules man.' Hannah From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Mar 23 15:17:56 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:17:56 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma + owl post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126482 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Jen: It *is* hard for me to understand the 'jarring discord' you [Lupinlore] feel from the characterization of Dumbledore and the situation with the Dursleys. But I won't try to change your mind! Like you said, you have a right to feel it and find the books somewhat diminished by it. There are possible scenarios which would mightily diminish the series for me, like ESE!Lupin. No matter how expertly Pippin argues this plot twist, I would not buy that JKR has prepared us for a twist such as that. No matter what sinister intent people invest in Lupin, mainly because of his actions in POA, I still maintain he was a victim of plot necessity in that one. The plot hinged on the ambiguity of his character so the reader would be left wondering about his true nature until the bitter end. > > If JKR comes back to say, 'no, he actually *is* evil' I will feel > duped and it will take some mighty acrobatics on my part to make peace with it. But I probably will go through the exercise. > Pippin: Jen, you've made me see Lupinlore's objections to JKR's portrayal of Dumbledore in an entirely new light. If Lupin had come to feel that Dumbledore was using *him* as a weapon, that he was indifferent to the werewolves' plight and had let Lupin or other werewolves suffer the likes of Umbridge when he should have intervened on their behalf -- well, that might make Lupin feel the way Lupinlore seems to think Harry ought to -- that he has cause for bitter resentment against Dumbledore above and beyond the faults that Dumbledore has acknowledged, and that if Dumbledore won't admit it, then what passes for good in the Wizarding World isn't really worth saving. Now I think, personally, that Dumbledore does have what JKR thinks are worthwhile reasons for everything. But this might be the reason she has told us that he is good but not yet tried to justify him: to make Lupin's defection more credible. Pippin From northsouth17 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 15:19:29 2005 From: northsouth17 at yahoo.com (northsouth17) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:19:29 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: <4241CB5C.19491.D88CAC@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126483 phoenixgod2000 wrote: > This post contains some spoilers for the dragonlance series. > Shaun: > As may mine. > Me too :-) I've snipped all of Shaun post, and am relying to it as a lump.... Like him I read DragonLance last a few years ago, and my memeories are becoming sketchy, but unlike him, I've never played, and know nothing about RPG or AD&D etc, it's all so many arcane acronyms. Also unlike him, I love Raistlin, and if not quite despise, then am ambivalent about Snape. Again with disagreeing - I see Raist as having had a far more complex arc where evil is concerned. Perhaps this is beacuse I've *only read the books*, and percive alignment much more vaugely and gradiently than Shuan, as I *don't know* that things need to be aligned so or so. Mainly though is that we've seen more of Raist and his struggles. yes, yes, we've been told that Snape was DE. We've been told that he is now not. Even Harry dosen't believe it's that simple! We're never explicitely shown him doing something good for the order. Nor something bad for LV. With Raist though, we see both his good deeds and his bad. We see him go back and forth, see his clothes change colors, see him weak and strong, good and bad. Very compelling. Snape - not so much. Another major reason, that i think may be more personal, and I think i may be misremembering, Raistlin has a dignity Snape lacks. Snape is very petty, all his "evil" - so far as we've been shown - directed at the children of the kids who bullid him in a myriad of nasty pathetic little ways. (Dropping Harry's potion? Hermoines teeth? Remus's secret, the Order of Merlin lust...My estimation for him dropped no end with these things.) Raist OTOH...his evil is for power, for ambition, for changing the world to suit whatever twisted plan he's got...thats cool. Raist had a *plan*. Snape has a grudge. Really, as Shaun said, Raislins more comparable to LV than to Snape, who's only a servant on this or that or both sides. Even if we're ever fianlly shown him doing something significant, ro told of his past actions...He's still not betraying everyone to start his own faction, is he? (Hmmmm....) Northsouth From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Mar 23 15:24:35 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:24:35 -0000 Subject: Kidneys and the re'em was Re: Character Discussion: Ron/Fred and George In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126484 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Pippin: > I don't claim to be a Biblical scholar but maybe I can shed a little > light on this. According to a note in Tanakh, the English > translation of the Hebrew scripture prepared by the Jewish > Publication Society, the literal meaning of the phrase in Psalm > 26 is "kidneys and heart" . The text uses "heart and mind." I could > add that 'kidney" has also been used figuratively in English to > mean temperament or nature, as "a gentleman of that kidney." Geoff: That possibly covers the Psalm reference, which would be in Aramaic (?) I imagine that the Revelation text would be Greek. I have contacted my elder son, who is halfway through a PhD in Theology if he can shed any light on this. Watch this space..... From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 15:27:46 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:27:46 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: <4241CB5C.19491.D88CAC@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126485 Shaun: OK - I have read both Harry Potter (obviously) and the Dragonlance Chronicles and Legends - though the last time I read Dragonlance was probably five years ago or so now. I've also read a smattering of the other Dragonlance books over the years. Having said that, I would say I am more sympathetic to the character of Snape, in general, but I can see some reason to be sympathetic to Raistlin's that *may or may not* apply to Snape. We know more about Raistlin's uprbringing in my view than we do about Snapes - we have snippets about Snapes. The major reason I regard Snape more positively than Raistlin is because Snape strikes me as a man who has *genuinely* swung between evil and good. He was evil (when he was a Deatheater). He is now good (as a member of the Order). That is, of course, open to debate - but it's the way I see it. Of course, if he's deceived everyone, I'd have to reasess. With Raistlin, it's different. But there are still a few other factors to be considered. Raistlin has a twin brother - Caramon. Caramon is almost the opposite of Raistlin in many ways - Raistlin is the weak scholarly wizard, Caramon the immensely strong, physical, warrior. Caramon loves Raistlin. Loves him incredibly. It's more or less unconditional love. And though Raistlin tries to reject it - as he rejects everything that doesn't lead to power - he never really *quite* succeeds. Caramon helps him hold onto a shred of humanity in my view, so he never quite falls as far as Voldemort (though he does become immensely more powerful and successful). ... perhaps that greater insight makes Raistlin > more sympathetic in some ways. We get to see much more of what > makes him tick. Alla: Oh, you can be on to something Shaun. I have a feeling that I will enjoy Raistlin character greatly. Not just the fact that as you say we know more about his upbringing, but the fact that there is a person who loves Raistlin and from what you said I understand that Raistlin loves his brother too, no matter how hard he tries to reject it. Am I right? It is VERY important to me that no matter how dark the character is, he is still able to experience positive feelings ( love, friendship, just caring for somebody). I don't see Snape showing us ANY positive feelings whatsoever, NONE. I mean he is loyal to the Light, OK, but I want to see him care at least a little bit for the person, not just to be faithful to the idea( not even in a romantic sense - for family member, for a friend, ANYBODY) I mean many speculated that he lost loved ones to the Darkness, but that is just speculation so far. I am not even sure that Snape cares for Dumbledore, though I do want to believe in it. I want to see it, than I definitely will be able to care for Snape more, I am sure of it. Going back to Boromir - he loves his brother and his father and when push comes to shove , he does feel friendship towards Hobbits. I also have a question about Raislin ( I AM getting a book, but I love spoilers :)). You said he chose evil, but does he definitely goes back to the Light at the end, or does he remain neutral? Because if he goes back to Light, I don't see much difference between him and Snape, because Snape also chosen evil at one point of his life. JMO, Alla, who cannot wait to buy Dragonlance chronicles now. From naama_gat at hotmail.com Wed Mar 23 15:30:44 2005 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:30:44 -0000 Subject: Kidneys and the re'em was Re: Character Discussion: Ron/Fred and George In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126486 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > > Pippin: > > I don't claim to be a Biblical scholar but maybe I can shed a > little > > light on this. According to a note in Tanakh, the English > > translation of the Hebrew scripture prepared by the Jewish > > Publication Society, the literal meaning of the phrase in Psalm > > 26 is "kidneys and heart" . The text uses "heart and mind." I could > > add that 'kidney" has also been used figuratively in English to > > mean temperament or nature, as "a gentleman of that kidney." > > Geoff: > That possibly covers the Psalm reference, which would be in Aramaic > (?) I imagine that the Revelation text would be Greek. The psalms are in Hebrew. All the old testament is, other than Daniel. NT - Greek, although parts of it are thought to be translations of older Aramaic texts. I think that Revelations is thought to have been originally written in Greek. Naama From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 23 16:08:10 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:08:10 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a "rules man"? (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126487 SSSusan: > > but I see Snape as actually having a *very* high regard for > > rules, indeed. Hannah: > I always think of Snape as a rules man, yet when I come to > write this post, I find it hard to justify exactly why I think > that. Snape certainly seems to be playing by some sort of rules, > I'm just not sure whose. Probably his own. I would say he has a > strong sense of honour and of justice; strong but twisted. Snape > is not fair in his treatment of Harry. Yet he seems to fanatically > believe in some form of justice. > I think those things point to him having a set of highly personal > rules that he sticks to rigidly. SSSusan: Between some offlist correspondence and the comments phoenixgod provided in his follow-up post, I've decided that my blanket statement that Snape is a "rules man" was indeed probably going overboard. In fact, phoenixgod's take is probably most accurate: Snape is a rules man in the "petty hallmonitorish" sense. [LOVE that phrase!] Many people agree with you, Hannah, that Snape seems bound by *some* code and has a strong sense of *some* kind of justice, but that it's his OWN. So perhaps the reason he tends to follow DD's instructions is that it suits his own internal code, not necessarily that he's a rules follower across the board. And much of the rest of it would probably fall under the hall monitor category. Hannah: > Potions - something Snape has an exceptional talent for - seems to > be all about following rules very exactly and precisely. Snape > also would appear to have a skill at logic, despite his irrational > behaviour. Snape strikes me as the sort of man who would apply > logic so rigidly and absolutely that he actually ends up with > completely wrong conclusions when he applies it to something as > illogical as human nature and life in general. SSSusan: A point I agree with, Hannah. Think about the line in TMWSNBN, where Sirius says to Snape, "Once again you've applied your keen & penetrating mind to the task and as usual come to the wrong conclusion." It may not be verbatim from JKR's text, but I think it is an understandable accusation for someone to make against him. Logic, reason, "rules"-following all work tremendously well in potion- making, but in assessing human behavior...? Siriusly Snapey Susan From cat_kind at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 17:14:08 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:14:08 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a "rules man"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126488 SSSusan: > Was it breaking a *rule* to tell that Lupin was a werewolf? I'm not > sure. Perhaps. I don't think we know that DD forbade it, though > it's likely that he did. > > Even so, I'm just not convinced these examples negate my inclination > to describe Snape as a rules man. > > I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this, either pro or con. catkind: I don't think it's rules that interest Snape so much as power, or *authority*. He respects Dumbledore's authority, and does more or less what Dumbledore says. He bullies the Gryffindors because they are not inclined to respect his, Snape's, authority. As a teacher Snape probably isn't subject to many actual rules at Hogwarts - it doesn't strike me as the sort of school that would have an extensive Teachers' Handbook. I also think Dumbledore ordered him not to tell about Lupin, or he would have done so much sooner. But at that point, Snape's respect for Dumbledore is down. He's already strongly questioned him after the shrieking-shack incident but given in to the Headmaster's authority, and as a result Sirius has escaped. I could imagine that in Snape's eyes, Dumbledore has a ridiculous blind-spot when it comes to the Potters and their little cliques. He, Snape, is just going to have to make up for the Headmaster's indulgence. Does Snape ever disobey DD when neither the Marauders nor Harry and co are involved? Can't think of any examples, then we probably wouldn't hear about it anyway. Does he break actual laws? Almost certainly in his DE days, and if he is acting as spy among the DEs he must be breaking laws again. Turning DE in the first place doesn't sound like the action of someone with respect for laws. And then there's Snape's enforcing of rules, which is at best erratic. He has it in for Gryffindor house, he lets Slytherins get away with a lot more. Compare this to McGonagall - she tries to be fair and penalise everyone she catches breaking rules. (Well, assuming they don't reveal surprising Quidditch talents in the process.) This suggests to me that McG is more interested in the rules themselves than Snape - Snape is more interested in the power they give him. In particular, he comes down like a tonne of bricks on Hermione when she tries to help Neville in potions - she is trying to usurp his authority as teacher, and Neville is letting her. This isn't about rulebreaking (surely Malfoy must be helping Crabbe and Goyle just as much). After the Pensieve incident, Snape is mortified - Harry has seen him being humiliated, Harry will probably never respect him again. Perhaps he even sees this as giving Harry a certain measure of power over him - a measly ten points, for fighting his pet Slytherin and open cheek? ("trying to decide what curse to use on Malfoy, sir") Just a theory. catkind From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Mar 23 17:47:17 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:47:17 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "northsouth17" wrote: > > Raist OTOH...his evil is for power, for ambition, for changing the world to suit whatever twisted plan he's got...thats cool. Raist had a *plan*. Snape has a grudge.< Pippin: I've only got vague memories of the three Dragonlance books I read. I do recall Raistlin as the most compelling character, but no way did I identify with him the way I can identify with Snape. I suppose it's because I don't really identify with the lust for power. Snape, OTOH, wants respect. That, to me, is a nobler ambition, though Snape is of course trying to get it in a completely wrong-headed and counterproductive way as far as Harry is concerned. IMO, the thing Snape sees Harry as having in common with James is that neither respected him, and in Snape's mind, until Harry starts respecting him, there's no reason to regard him as any different than James. Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 23 20:28:10 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:28:10 -0000 Subject: The "choosing evil" difference (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: <4241CB5C.19491.D88CAC@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126490 Shaun: > The major reason I regard Snape more positively than Raistlin is > because Snape strikes me as a man who has *genuinely* swung > between evil and good. He was evil (when he was a Deatheater). He > is now good (as a member of the Order). With Raistlin, it's > different. > He deliberately chooses to do so, because he wants power and he > sees the black robes as his path to power. To me, *deliberately* > choosing to be evil in order to become powerful... that is > *really* evil. SSSusan: This raises some questions for me, Shaun (or anyone else who'd care to weigh in). You're saying, then, that even though Snape had a true swing from evil to good, you believe Snape did *not* choose evil because he desired power. Have I got that right? Do you imagine he chose evil for more mundane reasons, or that his family background rather predisposed him towards the path he took? Or something else entirely? Just curious! Siriusly Snapey Susan From northsouth17 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 20:30:25 2005 From: northsouth17 at yahoo.com (northsouth17) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:30:25 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126491 Pippin: > Snape, OTOH, wants respect. That, to me, is a nobler ambition, > though Snape is of course trying to get it in a completely > wrong-headed and counterproductive way I agree with this, but It dosen't help me to like Snape. He's so counter productive, that it downright look self sabotaging to me. I'm not really sure whether Harry respects Snape - The problem is that I know I don't. I do respect Raistlin, who is comparatively a far more messed up and evil and convulted character. But he's never made nasty remarks at insecure 14 year old girls. It's these petty, mean, teacher things that Snape does that cause me to dislike him - not beacuse they're cruel, becuase I really do find cruelty intriguing - I think Raist was very cruel at times, especially to Caramon - but because they're so petty and pathetic. The man has barely a shred of dignity. He constantly stoops to the verbal equivelant of following the other kids around and sticking his tongue out at them. Raistlin has some of this, but IIRC it wasn't directed at those weaker than him. Now teenage Snape, him I like, Mudblooding and all. (I suppose we'll find out he would routinely steal potions ingiridients or hide the shoes of his roomates or something, but as it stands, I find in him a bearing that adult Snape totally lacks.) From jmrazo at hotmail.com Wed Mar 23 20:54:07 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:54:07 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126492 > Shaun: Phoenixgod2000: You did an excellent job summarizing the three robes of magic and Raistlin's changing. I wasn't sure how much detail about a non HP book I could include.. > Having said that, I would say I am more sympathetic to the > character of Snape, in general, but I can see some reason to be > sympathetic to Raistlin's that *may or may not* apply to Snape. We > know more about Raistlin's uprbringing in my view than we do about > Snapes - we have snippets about Snapes. I'm curious, how can you be more sympathetic towards Snape when he is, a best a second tier character that we know very little about. We get much more from Raistlins POV and can totally understand where he is coming from in his own mind. All we have are suppositions when it comes to Snape. > The major reason I regard Snape more positively than Raistlin is > because Snape strikes me as a man who has *genuinely* swung between > evil and good. He was evil (when he was a Deatheater). He is now > good (as a member of the Order). I don't know. It never seems to me that Snape actually agrees with anyone on the light side. He just joins it so he doesn't get tossed in Azkaban. There doesn't seem to be genuine belief in the cause of light. Raistlin doesn't change much, but it is a genuine change. > And though Raistlin tries to reject it - as he rejects everything > that doesn't lead to power - he never really *quite* succeeds. > Caramon helps him hold onto a shred of humanity in my view, so he > never quite falls as far as Voldemort (though he does become > immensely more powerful and successful). phoenixgod2000: Raistlin's power makes Voldemort look like a girl scout. There is more tenderness in Raistlin than simple love for his brother. I've been thinking about it a lot and I think I've discovered the reason why I like Raistlin and hate Snape so much. Raistlin picks on his equals. He picks on people who can fight back. Because of the abuse he suffered as a child he actually has a great deal of sympathy for the truly weak. Because until he learned magic, he was one of those people. He actually is very sweet towards children and enjoys delighting them with magic--even after he goes evi. There is a nobility about Raistlin that Snape never has because all out beloved potion master does is pick on the weak and defenseless. > ... perhaps that greater insight makes Raistlin > > more sympathetic in some ways. We get to see much more of what > > makes him tick. I think in the end, Raistlin is just humanized more than Snape, and possesses admirable qualities even while dark, which Snape doesn't embody. > Alla: > Going back to Boromir - he loves his brother and his father and > when push comes to shove , he does feel friendship towards Hobbits. phoenixgod2000: I liked Boromir a lot in the movies but I'm about to commit a terrible sin. I hate the LOTR novels. I cannot *stand* Tolkien's writing style. > I also have a question about Raislin ( I AM getting a book, but I > love spoilers :)). You said he chose evil, but does he definitely > goes back to the Light at the end, or does he remain neutral? > Because if he goes back to Light, I don't see much difference > between him and Snape, because Snape also chosen evil at one point > of his life. Can't tell you too much Alla, but I can say this. Raistlin never redeems per say. He stays essentially the same but he works to put right what he makes wrong. And he makes peace with his brother. I can't wait to see what you think about the books! phoenixgod2000 From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 21:10:05 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:10:05 -0000 Subject: The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four - Salazar & Basilisk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > ...Huge Snip... > > ...., we have NO real evidence that Slytherin was the > > pureblood-Nazi he is made out to be. All we really know is that he > > didn't trust muggles, and ... that distrust was well founded, and > > ..., the stakes were very high if anything went wrong. > > > > So, I can easily see how Salazar wanted to safely restrict > > Hogwarts students to those of magical ancestry. > > > > Not saying I'm right, but that's how I see it. > > > > Steve/bboyminn > imamommy: > > Steve, this post was very well written, and I agree, although my > husband pointed out that Salazar had to be at least a little loopy; > he did, after all, leave a Basilisk to kill muggles even after he > left. bboyminn: Well, we have been lead to believe that the Basilisk was there for /ill/ purpose, but that's based in assumptions of modern-day people who are relying on rumor, speculation, and an unreliable Legend. Further down in the same thread, in post #126025 I address this issue in a response to Ffed and said in short... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ....snip.... But old legends are not too reliable. I could just as easly speculate that the Basilisk was on hand to protect the school should there ever be a mass attack by muggles. It's possible that Salazar left the Basilisk behind to save the castle/school when the Muggle attack finally came, just as he had predicted. When that happened and his Basilisk saved everyone, he would be a hero, and would gain control of how the school was run. The path of /legend/ logic is that muggles would attack which would imply they had been betrayed by a muggle-born, the Basilisk would save the castle, kill all the attacking muggles, thereby proving that Slytherin was right, muggle-born's couldn't be trusted and were therefore /unworthy/ to study magic. That would be a sequence of events that would 'rid the castle of those unworthy to study magic'. ....snip... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Notice how this alternate interpretation doesn't really contradict the Legend or what we know as fact regarding Salazar's beliefs. > imamommy continues: > > This prompted a discussion about what might have made ol' > Slythy go round the twist. So, what if the Half-Blood Prince, > whomever he is, was the *cause* of Sal Slytherin's descent from > logical caution into madness? ... It also leaves the possibility of > GG being the HBP open, although it could have been someone else. > > imamommy bboyminn: Interesting point. First we don't know if the Half-Blood Prince is someone living today, or a historical figure. For that matter, we don't know if he is a real person or a metaphor. The HPB could be a fairytale or myth that illustrates a critical point to Harry, perhaps about courage, or sacrific, or some other noble attribute. Given how little information we have, your guess (or your husband's) is as good as any. As to whether Salazar /actually/ went 'round the twist. Again, we can only speculate. I wasn't trying to paint Salazar as a prefect and peachy person, I'm sure he had his faults. I'm also sure his belief were based in a bias or prejudice against muggles, but I'm not sure whether that was within general and reasonable bounds, or if he was totally fanatic about it. It seems clear if the conflict caused that much strife among the founders, Salazar must have had very strong feeling which he defended with equal strength and determination. It seems reasonable that Salazar wasn't simply weighing in with his preference, he was adamant and determines that he was right, and that his ideas be followed. But in considering this, we must also consider what was at stake. With the abondoning of the 'spread-out' apprentice system, and the adoption of a central school of magic, the wizard world became very vulnerable. If the magic-hating muggles got wind of and attacked the school, not only would the finest wizards and witches of the age be lost, but an entire generation of magical people would be destroyed. That could have spelled the end of the magical world in the UK. Given all that, it's within reason for Salazar to have taken a strong, forcefull, and unyeilding position on the matter. So, in this light, it's not that hard to justify Salazar's actions. Again, I'm not trying to paint Salazar as a saint, I'm sure (very sure) he had his dark side; he was ambitions, cunning, and had a definite pureblood bias, but so far I haven't seen direct evidents that he is 'round the twist or that he's evil. Not sure what to make of the poor guy. Steve/bboyminn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 21:28:41 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:28:41 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126494 Phoenixgod 2000: I'm curious, how can you be more sympathetic towards Snape when he is, a best a second tier character that we know very little about. We get much more from Raistlins POV and can totally understand where he is coming from in his own mind. All we have are suppositions when it comes to Snape. Alla: I am not sure if it applies to Shaun and if not I apologize, but I know for sure that some Snape fans love him BECAUSE he is a second tier character and so much is opened to imagination. Now, with me it is really a thin line to walk - such as I cannot love the character, who is just a name in the book - if I have to imagine the whole story, it is not author's story, it is my own. But when we are given some hints about the character and a lot of things are left to imagination, but not all of them,, I can live with that. The problem with Snape is as you stated that all we have are pretty much suppositions and anything we think about him can turn out to be false at the end of book 7. For example he may have noble intentions or he may have none, so I am cautious at this point. Phoenixgod2000: Raistlin's power makes Voldemort look like a girl scout. There is more tenderness in Raistlin than simple love for his brother. I've been thinking about it a lot and I think I've discovered the reason why I like Raistlin and hate Snape so much. Raistlin picks on his equals. He picks on people who can fight back. Because of the abuse he suffered as a child he actually has a great deal of sympathy for the truly weak. Because until he learned magic, he was one of those people. He actually is very sweet towards children and enjoys delighting them with magic--even after he goes evi. There is a nobility about Raistlin that Snape never has because all out beloved potion master does is pick on the weak and defenseless. Alla: Are you saying that it is really truly possible for the character to have a bad childhood and not become a bully of children himself? :) I would never thought so when I read about Snape. :) Yeah, I have a feeling that I will love Raislin character a lot. And yes, the fact that Raislin picks on his equals will probably make all the difference for me too. I would LOVE for example to see a full blown duel between Snape and Sirius. ( OK, OK that is slash fan in me talking :)) I'd like to see more of Snape fighting with his equals in general. Maybe at least he and Remus will fight in the next book. I'd say Remus was way too patient and too nice for a very long time :) JMO, Alla. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Mar 23 21:36:11 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:36:11 -0000 Subject: Young men/bad decisions (was Re: The "choosing evil" difference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126495 > SSSusan: snip > Do you imagine he chose evil for more mundane reasons, or that his > family background rather predisposed him towards the path he took? > Or something else entirely? Potioncat: I'm not sure if I'm really answering this question. And I've never even heard of the other character Snape is being compared with in this thread. But what strikes me all of a sudden, is the comparison between Regulus Black and Severus Snape. June 1978 Severus Snape graduates from Hogwarts (18 years old) 1980/81 ??? Regulus Black tries to leave DEs and is killed (19/20?) 1980/81 Severus becomes spy for Dumbledore (20/21?) Sep/Nov 1981 joins Hogwarts staff (21 years old) Regulus seems to have some respect from fandom because he died trying to leave the DEs. Although we know he was a DE, no one seems to think he was evil. Evidence is that he joined because of Pureblood ideology but didn't approve of everything LV stood for and hadn't realized what the DEs really planned to do. So why is Snape seen differently? Would he have been better recieved if he had died? It appears he also had a change of heart, or didn't fully understand what he was getting into in the first place. He could have come to the same conclusion as Regulus at the same time. Maybe some new part of LV's plan was announced and both young men knew it wasn't for them. Regulus, wearing his heart on his sleeve jumped up and said "I quit" Snape kept quiet. I suppose I'm saying we don't know that Snape was evil. We know he joined an organization that is evil, but we also know the full extent of its evil nature wasn't known at first. Did he join it because of what it offered him? What did it offer him? Or did he agree with restricting Muggle-born wizardry? What is really apparant (all of a sudden) is how very young Snape and the Marauders were. But, isn't it always that way in wartime? Potioncat From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 23 22:08:08 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:08:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discusson: Further Musings on Percy Message-ID: <20050323220808.82875.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126496 This morning's post was concentrated on the teachings of liberation as they apply to the character of Percy, who personifies the heart-sanctuary and more especially the heart chakra. Today I just want to do some wild speculation and if it doesn't come out in Harry Potter I don't want you to say, "Your predictions didn't work out". This is just pure fun, OK? I was just thinking today what sort of energy the heart chakra sucks in. I guess it must be a form of emotional energy, surely? I think it's probably astral energy to do with sympathy and antipathy; love and hate. I'm just speculating now. Just imagine the chakra rotating in the opposite direction. That means only the most pure divine love could enter the heart-sanctuary. We've already been in the heart: Lily lived inside the hollow heart and the Room of Love is also in the heart. So my speculative question is: what will Percy do when he abandons his selfish ambition? Somehow he will be connected to the Room of Love. Will he be the one to open it to Harry? Will he shield Harry against Voldemort? I can't get a clear picture but I do think that Percy and Harry belong together. I'm sure they will do wonderful things together before the end of the story. Just imagine if we could achieve such a state: in our heart burns the God-spark which radiates a purifying force throughout our being. Our emotions are pure and we have expelled all selfish desires and ambitions. We have opened our whole being to the Divine Prana which is personified by Harry. We are filled with a Love that is totally unselfish and all embracing. We care only for the eternal well being of those around us, and of all of humanity. This fills us with an intense, unbelievably rapturous joy, which nothing can extinguish. Our heart chakra, Percy, attracts the purest possible love-energy so that we can never become depleted no matter how much we give to those around us. That's the reality awaiting all of us if we can find the Holy Grail in our own heart. How will Jo describe this in Harry Potter? Is this even possible? I don't know, but I'm beginning to love Percy already! "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 23 22:11:30 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:11:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Charlie Message-ID: <20050323221130.83141.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126497 If my assessment of Jo's symbolism is correct, the next chakra we see as we move up the spinal column is the throat chakra, personified by Charlie Weasley. This chakra is connected with the thyroid gland and the pharynx. The throat chakra affects the pharynx very much, and so this chakra is in harmony with our speech. We probably don't realise this, but our speech is our most powerful magical faculty. Harry Potter readers will know just how important speech is in magic, but do we ever think about the effects our speech has on our environment? Do we ever think about what incredibly deep and painful wounds our words can cause? Do we realise our words can actually destroy people's lives? Do we think about the pain caused by sarcasm, by teasing, by lies? Do we stop and think about how words can be made to deceive? Do we consider the destruction caused by criticism? Or how we resemble animals when we quarrel? And then how many of us often pour out a stream of words like a bad case of diarrhoea? In other words we trivialise our most powerful magical faculty? Occultism uses speech also. But then it is used to nail the user extra hard to the fallen universe, the world of Voldemort. The alchemist uses speech to liberate himself! I explained in my post about Percy that the human being has two faculties which he can use to liberate himself and make himself immortal. This is stated by Hermes Trismegistus in his Thirteenth Book of the Corpus Hermeticum. These two faculties are called the Purified Heart and the Word or Speech. They are symbolised respectively by the shield and the sword of the knight of the Holy Grail. In Harry Potter they are personified (I surmise) by Percy and Charlie. Before the alchemist can begin to forge the sword he must first purify his heart. Percy must give up his ambitions and pledge his loyalty to Harry. He must open the Room of Love. When the heart sanctuary is pure and clean and free of egocentric desires and emotions, the second immortal faculty can be forged. This is a tremendous creative faculty with which the alchemist can destroy all his negative qualities. The Divine Prana (Harry) concentrates intensely in the larynx and the throat chakra starts working in a new way, with great power. When the Word is born in the alchemist, the Holy Spirit can enter and marry the soul. This is when the alchemical wedding can begin. The Word is symbolised by the sword because of the power and strength which this magical faculty gives to the reborn, immortal son of God. Just as the horn of the unicorn symbolises the new will, the new speech is symbolised by a two edged sword coming out of the mouth of the Divine Human Being. This human being is seen by John on Patmos: "...one like the son of man,[...]from his mouth issued a sharp two-edged sword." The person who has this sword "in his mouth" has the renewed throat chakra, and the holy Spirit and the soul are married within him. When he speaks, his words actually create what he says. For example if he says to a sick person, "be healed", the person will be healed. However this sword will never be used for mundane purposes. It will be used only to do the will of God. If the user were to use it frivolously or out of favouritism he would be committing the same kind of act as caused the Fall originally. I guess I'm getting carried away and leaving Harry way behind, but who knows what Jo intends to do with Charlie? If he really does personify the throat chakra, as I suspect, he will be essential in helping Harry achieve victory. In accordance with the above, Percy will first rejoin Harry and give him the shield in some symbolical way. Perhaps he will protect him, and perhaps he will help Harry open the Room of Love. Then Charlie will give Harry the Sword, or perhaps he will use his Speech in some way, helping Harry to enter the Bridal Chamber. Or maybe I'm totally up the creek. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 22:23:08 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:23:08 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126498 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard Jones" wrote: > > I want to argue that Malfoy, LV's "slippery friend" (OOTP 33/650), is > trying to play both sides of the fence at the same time: he wants to > come out on top no matter who wins. He wants to become Minister of > Magic if the good guys win and have LV killed by Harry and take over > the dark side if the good guys lose. Maybe he'll exploit the > knowledge that Bellatrix gained that LV is not a pureblood to get a > rift started among the DE's with him leading those who want a > pureblood in charge. > > On the one side, he has his flunky Bagman installed at the Ministry > and was on the Board of Directors of Hogwarts before he messed things > up in COS. He also is a generous donator to St. Mungo's. All of > these are attempts to position himself powerfully in the wizarding > world. > > On the other side, he wants to have keep Harry alive because only > Harry holds the key to having LV killed. Two things point to this. > First, notice that he saved Harry from being killed in the DoM. > Second (and this is more speculative), I think he might have sent > Dobby to Harry in COS to try to prevent him from going back to > Hogwarts to protect him so that he would be alive later if LV came > back to finish LV off for him. Malfoy was trying to get the monster > in the Chamber of Secrets released to rid the school of mudbloods and > to discredit DD, and he would not want a non-pureblood like Harry in > danger if he needed him later. (I still don't know why Malfoy was > trying to get Tom Riddle reborn. Maybe he didn't know that that > would be a consequence of his plan or that the monster was a > Basilisk. Did he know it was Riddle or just the "Heir of > Slytherin"? There is no evidence in COS or GOF that LV knew of > Malfoy's actions in COS.) How else could a House Elf go to help > someone else except on orders from their masters? They are bound to > serve "one house, one family" ? how else would Dobby go to help > another even if Harry was responsible for the downfall of LV the > first time and helped to improve the House Elves' treatment. (But > this does not explain why Dobby keeps hurting himself when he is > helping Harry.) Also, wouldn't Malfoy have noticed all the time his > House Elf wasn't around? > > Also consider the fact that Snape apparently hangs out with Malfos ? > Malfoy's "laddog" as Sirius called him ? and his loyalties are not > exactly clear. It may be Malfoy who is the Order's spy, passing > information through Snape. Is it another instance of playing both > until a winner is clear? > > Of course, Malfoy now has a lot of explaining to do now that he has > been caught in the DoM. But his silver tongue may get him out of it > again, just as he did after the first war. But if LV helps him > escape from Azkaban, then it will very hard for him to try to > convince anyone that he really was on the side of the Ministry all > along. > > In short, Lucius is just a power hungry opportunist with no > convictions on either side. He can be sure to be on the winning side > by being on both sides and becoming number one on whichever sides > wins. Thus, he doesn't care who wins as long as he comes out on > top. He's the paradigm of Slytherin ambition and sliminess. > > Richard Jones a_svirn: It's kind of obvious that Lucius is a power-hungry opportunist. In fact, one can state the same about a virtually every DE (at least, the opportunist part), with the exception of Bellatrix. It does not however explain his association with LV. If anything, his being a DE considerably diminished his chances to "come out on the top". Lucius was born to assume a position of power and influence. He was a part of the elite from the very beginning. The fact that even after having thoroughly damaged his reputation he managed to regain his position of a "pillar of the society" and exercise a certain influence on the WW's legislation, law enforcement and public opinion demonstrates how much weight his social standing carries. If he had not got involved with LV in the first place he would have probably made a minister by now. There was no point in risking all that and throwing his lot with a low-born, Muggle-bred adventurer. Especially, since it must have been glaringly obvious that the said adventurer wasn't interested in sharing HIS power and even less so his immortality. As for the possibility of turning his incarceration in Azkaban to his advantage, I agree. The battle in the DoM although it had effectively brought the "phoney war" to its end, did not result into any serious bloodshed. (As far as the Ministry concerned, Sirius Black is no great loss anyway). Which means that although Lucius's reputation is now tarnished probably beyond repair, he is not in fact guilty of any serious crime. At least, comparing to the "crimes against humanity" that are certainly to come and very soon. And while those DE who are still at large are going to be engaged into real fighting and get killed or convicted for murder charges he is going to be safely tacked in Azkaban (not pleasant, but bearable, now that there are no Dementors around). Moreover, if Fudge sent him in Azkzban without a trial (and it looks like he did exactly that) Lucius is technically not a convict, but a detainee. At the moment the difference is not significant, but I imagine that when time is right he will know how to play this card. a_svirn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 22:56:51 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:56:51 -0000 Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA - Possible and Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > > Hannah: > I think that Harry will get an 'O' for his Potions, and > that Snape will teach him. bboyminn: Again, we are on one of those subjects in which people are entrenched in their opinions. Although, I admit that since these events haven't played out yet, there is much more room for speculation. Personally, I am forced to come up with alternate scenerios like a new Potions teacher because I simply can not believe that Harry got and 'O' in his Potion OWL. In the absents of that, I have to create alternatives. The OWL- --- OotP AM Ed, HB, pg 716 --- ... the one (exam) that would be the downfall of his ambition to become an Auror.... Sure enough, he found the written exam difficult... Harry corked his sample flask feeling that he might not have achieved a good grade but that he had, with luck, avoided a fail. - - - end quote - - - I'm sure Harry did better than he expected, but it's a HUGE leap from avoiding a fail to top-grade Outstanding. If I'm taking a written test that I get a 90% on, that's probably not a test I'm going to think is difficult; it's a test for which I knew 90% of the answers. I don't get the sense that Harry knew 90% of the answers. A difficult test is one where I struggle to bring an impending 60% up to a hopeful 70% (avoided a fail). Further, I think these percentages likely reflect the wizard grading system, 90%+ ="O", 80%+ = 'E", 70%+ = "A", 60%+ = "D", below 60% = fail. Wizards really don't strike me as a group that grades on a curve. If Harry's Practical Potion went well, the potion would have looked exactly as it should have looked, and Harry would have been confident that it was correct. As it is, there must be something wrong with it, because he thinks the best he will do is scrape by with an 'pass'. Even factoring in Snape's absents, I can't stretch '...avoided a fail...' all the way up to a (+90%) 'Outstanding'; it just doesn't stretch that far. Certainly, I think Harry did better than /he/ expected, which brings him up to a low to middle "Exceeds Expectations" [80% to 85% range, although, a more likely range is mid-A to mid-E (75% to 85%)]. If a Hufflepuff takes over the Potions class, a 75%/Acceptable would probably be enough, anyone else would probably require an +80%/E. One of the best new theories that keeps Snape in the Potions teaching position, is one that speculated that Draco did poorly and got an "A" or an "E", and the only way to keep Draco in the class it to lower the standard. That satisfies everyone; Harry gets in, Snape is still the teacher. > Hannah continues: > > The other theories are interesting, but in my opinion, that is what > JKR has set up in OotP. The interaction between Harry and Snape is > an important part ... > > If JKR intended to make Snape DADA teacher, why did she go to all > the effort of explaining (via McG) that Harry would *have* to take > Potions the following year? > > ...edited... > > Hannah bboyminn: Well, yes, JKR did include the Career Counciling meeting where she set up Harry's need for Potions. But in every single book, JKR as set up Snape's desire to teach DADA. In each book it becomes more difficult to get DADA teachers, and indeed in the last book (OotP), Dumbledore was unable to find a DADA teacher in time, so the Ministry had to appoint one. Teachers like Lockhart were tolerable when things we less critical, but Voldemort is back now and operating in the open, Dumbledore is well past the time when he can appoint second rate teachers, or accept Ministry interference. Now, he is out of time, now it is a matter of life and death. There simply is no room left for (pardon the expression) half-assed DADA teachers. Student must learn to defend themselves. So, who do we have left, who is both willing and able? Snape. I admit that this breaks the pattern of a new DADA teacher appearing in every book and driving the plot forward, then meeting the Curse of the DADA in the end. But I counter that with the belief that OotP was a great transitional book. What applied in the past no longer applies. With Voldemort back and the world at war, routine comfortable patterns have to be broken, and all that /could/ open the door for Snape to finally be DADA teacher. I'm not 100% entrenched in this belief that Snape will teach DADA, but it is one way to explain how a not so 'outstanding' Harry can continue with Potions. Further, I have pointed out in the past, that I don't think Potions is an absolute requirement to become an Auror, it is just a reasonably logical area of expertise that an Auror must have. If Tonks serves as any model, Auror's don't have to 100% in all areas. A basic working knowledge of potions would be suffcient if other more positive aspects were in a surplus. For exampe, Harry has more than demonstrated a superb ability to fight dark wizards. While his charms and tranfigurations grades are good, beyond that he has demonstrated an outstanding ability to apply those sujects in practical defensive situations. Logic says that the Auror selection committee is not going to look just at NEWT grades, but reasonably at the bigger picture of theoretical and demostrated skills and apptitude. I think, a fair grade in OWL potions combined with a high grade in NEWT Herbology combined with other outstanding skills and demonstrated abiliy would add up to enough. I really don't think Potions is an absolute requirement, just a logical and reasonable area of knowledge for an Auror. So,... -I can see no way for Harry's grades to jump all the way into the +90% 'Outstanding' range. -I'm not convinced that Potions are an absolute requirement. -Snape could take over as DADA teacher, the book has been setting up that possibility since book 1. -Equally, I can see possible ways in which Snape and Harry could continue in potions, but not at Snape's present standard. -I can also see possible ways for Harry to NOT take Potions and still be eligible to become an Auror. -I don't think Harry will be privately tutored in Potions by Dumbledore, McGonagall, or anyone else. He is more likely, in my opinion, to not take potions than for that to happen. -While I haven't addressed it here, if Harry doesn't take Potions and Snape doesn't teach DADA, I see plenty of room for conflict when Snape takes over as faculty adviser for the DA Club. Speculating of course, that the DA Club will be an open and offical club in the next book. -I can see the reaction on Harry's face, when he drops Potions and think he is finally rid of Snape, only to find Snape teaching DADA. It's worth it just for that reaction alone. -An easy way out for all, is for Snape to drop his standards to accomodate Draco's poor Potions grade. So, anything and everything is possible, with one exception, I just can not bring myself to see any scenerio in which Harry gets an 'Outstanding' in his Potion Owl. There has to be some other explanation. If he does, JKR better have an extremely good explanation for it, even then I'll still have trouble believing it. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Mar 23 23:39:39 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:39:39 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The "choosing evil" difference (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: References: <4241CB5C.19491.D88CAC@localhost> Message-ID: <20050323232830.M66352@alphalink.com.au> No: HPFGUIDX 126500 On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:28:10 -0000, cubfanbudwoman wrote > Shaun: > > The major reason I regard Snape more positively than Raistlin is > > because Snape strikes me as a man who has *genuinely* swung > > between evil and good. He was evil (when he was a Deatheater). He > > is now good (as a member of the Order). With Raistlin, it's > > different. > > > He deliberately chooses to do so, because he wants power and he > > sees the black robes as his path to power. To me, *deliberately* > > choosing to be evil in order to become powerful... that is > > *really* evil. > > SSSusan: > This raises some questions for me, Shaun (or anyone else who'd care > to weigh in). You're saying, then, that even though Snape had a > true swing from evil to good, you believe Snape did *not* choose > evil because he desired power. Have I got that right? Shaun: It's more a matter that I don't think we have enough information to judge why Snape turned to evil. There's a lot more information about Raistlin and his motives and ideas available in the DL Chronicles and Legends than there is about Snape in the HP books. > Do you imagine he chose evil for more mundane reasons, or that his > family background rather predisposed him towards the path he took? > Or something else entirely? Very few evil people *choose* to be evil. They certainly *choose* to commit evil acts, but if you looked at their motivations, you would find motivations like power, or hatred, or bigotry, or fear behind those choices. Evil is the *result* of their choices, not the motivation for the choices themselves. As we have so little information with regards to Snape, I therefore think that it is likely (until other evidence arises) that he fits into this model. With Raistlin, though, the situation is that he *deliberately* chose the path of evil - even before he'd committed an act of evil. At the time when he dons the black robes, Raistlin has not acted explicitly evil. He has acted competely amorally in my view, and some of the things he has done come clse to evil, but he has stayed in the neutral area. When Raistlin becomes evil, when he dons the black robes he announces his deliberate intention to embrace evil. This isn't something that develops because of his actions, this is a deliberate and premeditated choice. To bring yet another 'fantasy' novel into this, I am reminded of the character descriptions in Terry Pratchett's Good Omens. At the start of that book (which is a humourous account of the apocalypse), the characters are briefly introduced. Several demons are described as 'fallen angels' - and then we come to one of the main characters, Anthony Crowley, who is described as: "An Angel who did not so much Fall as Sauntered Vaguely Downwards." Raistlin fell - there was nothing accidental about his approach to evil. It was clearly and explicitly chosen. I think the same applies to Voldemort - but I think it's actually very uncommon. Most who come to evil come to it accidentally - they saunter vaguely downwards towards it. Can I say for certain that Snape did that? No - but in the absence of anything to suggest he made a deliberate explicit choice of evil, I think it unlikely. It's rare. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 23:52:22 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:52:22 -0000 Subject: The "choosing evil" difference (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: <20050323232830.M66352@alphalink.com.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126501 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > Shaun: > Most who come to evil come to it accidentally - they saunter > vaguely downwards towards it. Can I say for certain that Snape did > that? No - but in the absence of anything to suggest he made a > deliberate explicit choice of evil, I think it unlikely. It's rare. What if the choice was not a deliberate explicit choice "Hmm, I'm going to be evil" but the choice of "I'm going to do what I want in order to gain power for myself, because myself is what matters". Voldemort's Credo is "No good and evil, only power and those too weak to use it", which is a pretty concise statement of something like Kantian radical evil. Radical evil is the elevation of self-interest to the supreme consideration. It involves pursuing what you want, regardless of harm done to other people, laws broken, offending nature, etc. Sounds rather like the Dark Arts (from what we know); get what you want even if you have to take it (resurrection spell) or violate someone else (Unforgiveables). Joining the DEs *could* be part of a quest for personal power by Young!Snape, and leaving the revelation that power isn't all, that good and evil exist. Well hello, Diana. Haven't seen you around these parts in some time. -Nora goes back to turning pages very carefully From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Mar 24 00:09:00 2005 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 00:09:00 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a "rules man"? (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > Between some offlist correspondence and the comments phoenixgod > provided in his follow-up post, I've decided that my blanket > statement that Snape is a "rules man" was indeed probably going > overboard. In fact, phoenixgod's take is probably most accurate: > Snape is a rules man in the "petty hallmonitorish" sense. [LOVE that > phrase!] > > Many people agree with you, Hannah, that Snape seems bound by *some* > code and has a strong sense of *some* kind of justice, but that it's > his OWN. So perhaps the reason he tends to follow DD's instructions > is that it suits his own internal code, not necessarily that he's a > rules follower across the board. And much of the rest of it would > probably fall under the hall monitor category. > > > Hannah: > > Potions - something Snape has an exceptional talent for - seems to > > be all about following rules very exactly and precisely. Snape > > also would appear to have a skill at logic, despite his irrational > > behaviour. Snape strikes me as the sort of man who would apply > > logic so rigidly and absolutely that he actually ends up with > > completely wrong conclusions when he applies it to something as > > illogical as human nature and life in general. > > > SSSusan: > A point I agree with, Hannah. Think about the line in TMWSNBN, where > Sirius says to Snape, "Once again you've applied your keen & > penetrating mind to the task and as usual come to the wrong > conclusion." It may not be verbatim from JKR's text, but I think it > is an understandable accusation for someone to make against him. > Logic, reason, "rules"-following all work tremendously well in potion- > making, but in assessing human behavior...? > Marianne: Hmmmm...that last sentence, minus the reference to potion-making, might even apply to Hermione... But getting back to the rules question, I've always speculated that part of Snape's irritation and anger with the Marauders stemmed not only from the fact that they broke rules, but that whatever punishment they received did not change their behavior. That could feed on itself endlessly - MWPP do something and get caught, a teacher gives them whatever punishment is deemed appropriate for the crime of the moment, and the very next day or week, they go and break some other rule. Eventually it drives Snape to distraction. I can see this continuous cycle really getting up Snape's nose so that he comes to feel they are never punished enough. It's just a short step from there to thinking that they can get away with anything or that Dumbledore is showing favoritism because they're Gryffindors when really it was a case of the punishment never being a deterrent because MWPP, or probably at least PP, didn't care about what the school's authority. Add to this if Snape knew, as he probably did, of instances when MWPP did things and were never caught, and, thus, escaped punishment. Again Snape could add this to the ledger of them getting away with EVERYTHING. Marianne From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Mar 24 00:33:38 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 00:33:38 -0000 Subject: The "choosing evil" difference (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126503 > > Shaun: > > > Most who come to evil come to it accidentally - they saunter > > vaguely downwards towards it. Can I say for certain that Snape did that? No - but in the absence of anything to suggest he made a deliberate explicit choice of evil, I think it unlikely. It's rare. Nora: > What if the choice was not a deliberate explicit choice "Hmm, I'm going to be evil" but the choice of "I'm going to do what I want in order to gain power for myself, because myself is what matters". Voldemort's Credo is "No good and evil, only power and those too weak to use it", which is a pretty concise statement of something like Kantian radical evil.< > Pippin: Hmm. That was the argument Voldemort used with Quirrell, whom he characterized as young and naive. It may not reflect Voldemort's own beliefs at all, and in any case Voldemort tailors his message to suit his audience. I think Snape as a young man wanted power because he wanted respect. But someone who wants respect *does* care what other people think, very much so. It's true that Snape treats Harry, Hermione and Neville very disrespectfully but I don't think it's because he sees them as insecure, powerless children. I think he feels weak compared to them and so he needs to intimidate them. After all, what is a potions master compared to the wizard who vanquished Voldemort, or the most brilliant witch Hogwarts has ever seen? Neville also appears to be a magically powerful potion maker even if he can't seem to control it --plenty of other people botch their potions, but they don't explode. I think, for whatever reason, Snape lacks any protective instinct toward children, so in protecting Harry he makes a *choice*. I think that, like Petunia, it probably gets him more brownie points in JKR's book than someone who protects a child because he has a natural fondness for him. Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 24 00:36:27 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 00:36:27 -0000 Subject: Young men/bad decisions (was Re: The "choosing evil" difference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126504 Potioncat: > June 1978 Severus Snape graduates from Hogwarts (18 years old) > 1980/81 ??? Regulus Black tries to leave DEs and is killed (19/20?) > 1980/81 Severus becomes spy for Dumbledore (20/21?) > Sep/Nov 1981 joins Hogwarts staff (21 years old) > > Regulus seems to have some respect from fandom because he died > trying to leave the DEs. So why is Snape seen differently? SSSusan: Interesting observation about the timing of two DEs' defections. And a fair enough question about why many fans see Snape differently than they see Regulus. I wonder if the difference isn't that, while we know little about Snape, we know even less about Regulus? We don't know how things would've turned out had he lived after deserting Voldy & the DEs, but it's fairly easy (and rather fun) to imagine that he might've done good things, been noble, all of that. Whereas with Snape, we know exactly how things have turned out (on the surface, anyway) because we *see* him post-Voldy-desertion, and it isn't exactly a pretty picture! He's a nasty, snarky, mean-spirited, petty, vindictive bullier of *kids.* In short, it's much easier to credit an unknown Regulus for his bravery & to fantasize about what he might've been than to credit Snape for his bravery when we see his limitations & weaknesses all the time. Siriusly Snapey Susan From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 24 00:48:01 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 00:48:01 -0000 Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA - Possible and Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126505 bboyminn wrote: > Personally, I am forced to come up with alternate scenerios like a new > Potions teacher because I simply can not believe that Harry got and > 'O' in his Potion OWL. In the absents of that, I have to create > alternatives. > I'm sure Harry did better than he expected, but it's a HUGE leap from > avoiding a fail to top-grade Outstanding. > > If I'm taking a written test that I get a 90% on, that's probably not a test I'm going to think is difficult; it's a test for which I knew 90% of the answers. I don't get the sense that Harry knew 90% of the answers. A difficult test is one where I struggle to bring an > impending 60% up to a hopeful 70% (avoided a fail). Further, I think these percentages likely reflect the wizard grading system, 90% + ="O", 80%+ = 'E", 70%+ = "A", 60%+ = "D", below 60% = fail. Wizards really > don't strike me as a group that grades on a curve. There simply is no room left for (pardon the expression) half-assed DADA teachers. > > Student must learn to defend themselves. So, who do we have left, who is both willing and able? Snape. I admit that this breaks the pattern of a new DADA teacher appearing in every book and driving the plot forward, then meeting the Curse of the DADA in the end. But I counter that with the belief that OotP was a great transitional book. What applied in the past no longer applies. With Voldemort back and the world at war, routine comfortable patterns have to be broken, and all that /could/ open the door for Snape to finally be DADA teacher. Hannah: I think the grade boundaries that you envisage are unrealistically high. In some subjects at GCSE (OWL equivalent) the percentage for an A* can be as low as 65% if there's a very tough paper. Certainly the 'fail' mark for all subjects at that level in the RL is *well* below 60%, more like 20 or 30%. For A-Level, the 'A' boundary is 80%. For degree level, the boundary for a first is 70%. 90% seems extrememly high given these RL figures (though of course, it's impossible to tell from canon). I do know what you mean about it being a bit frustrating if Harry does pull off a top grade in his worst and most hated subject, but I think JKR will do it. Alternatively, I like the theory of him getting an E, but Snape having to lower the bar in order to let Draco into the class. I would like for Snape to be DADA teacher, but I don't think it will happen until book 7 at least. DD must have a pretty good reason not to employ Snape in that role, and even though he knew at the start of Harry's fifth year that LV was back, he preferred to have the Ministry's gopher than let Snape teach. Snape may be the only canon character we know who appears willing and able, but there are any number of OC's that JKR can create that we need never have heard of up till now, and any number of reasons she can fabricate for why they couldn't/wouldn't take up the role in previous years. Hannah From nrenka at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 01:09:23 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 01:09:23 -0000 Subject: The "choosing evil" difference (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126506 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: >> Nora: >> What if the choice was not a deliberate explicit choice "Hmm, >> I'm going to be evil" but the choice of "I'm going to do what I >> want in order to gain power for myself, because myself is what >> matters". Voldemort's Credo is "No good and evil, only power >> and those too weak to use it", which is a pretty concise >> statement of something like Kantian radical evil. > > Pippin: > Hmm. That was the argument Voldemort used with Quirrell, > whom he characterized as young and naive. It may not reflect > Voldemort's own beliefs at all, and in any case Voldemort tailors > his message to suit his audience. I don't agree here at all, Pippin. I think that argument encapsulates what makes Voldemort what he is. What Voldemort wants, Voldemort gets; Voldemort is out for no one but Voldemort in his radically self-centered world. Value judgements are irrelevant compared to the ability to exercise the will. JKR tells us that he never loved anyone. It seems like Possessed!Quirrell is truly speaking for the boss at that point in time. It connects up so nicely with the appeal of the Dark Arts, and we do know that Snape has some unspecified level of interest (enough that DD wouldn't let him take the DADA job) in such. > I think Snape as a young man wanted power because he wanted > respect. But someone who wants respect *does* care what other > people think, very much so. I think that Snape is very likely the type to confuse genuine respect and esteem with the respect generated from the fear of power. Snape the "sadistic teacher who abuses his power" seems to get a low- grade kick out of exercising his power over others. That may well come from some deep rooted fears of inadequacy. I don't think it's as benign as you would like to present it, but we shall all have to see, no? -Nora watches the snow fall and trudges out into it From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 01:14:37 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 01:14:37 -0000 Subject: Young men/bad decisions (was Re: The "choosing evil" difference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126507 Potioncat: Regulus seems to have some respect from fandom because he died trying to leave the DEs. So why is Snape seen differently? SSSusan: Interesting observation about the timing of two DEs' defections. And a fair enough question about why many fans see Snape differently than they see Regulus. I wonder if the difference isn't that, while we know little about Snape, we know even less about Regulus? In short, it's much easier to credit an unknown Regulus for his bravery & to fantasize about what he might've been than to credit Snape for his bravery when we see his limitations & weaknesses all the time. Alla: I am a little bit puzzled. I don't think I ever assigned Regulus deflection more respect than I assigned to Snape, but come to think of it, I would argue the opposite to your argument, Susan. I think the difference between the two is that while we know much less about Regulus than we know about Snape, we know more about how Regulus deflected than we know about Snape's. Am I being confusing? We know that Regulus did not have a stomach for whatever particular athrocity Voldie and Co wanted him to commit and he tried to quit. Yes, I respect him for that. As to Snape, we know that he told Dumbledore his story and he believed it, that is it. I just want to be 100% sure that Snape deflected for real and for good reasons. I believe it for the most part, but sometimes, I experience tinge of doubt and I don't like it. When I have no doubt, I respect both men's deflection equally. Now, that is true that we know more about what happened to Snape after he deflected and definitely the bullying part of his personality does not get much respect from me, but that does not relate to him leaving Voldemort at all. Just my opinion, Alla From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Mar 23 05:17:26 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (rdoliver30) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:17:26 -0000 Subject: DD's dilemma (was: Hogwarts Teachers - Lockhart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126508 > >>Lupinlore: > > Once again, I, and many others, would be more inclined to > > be sympathetic toward Dumbledore if indeed we did see some > > of that anguish and tension people are postulating. > > John: > What exactly do you mean by this? Just because DD isn't one > prone to overt displays of emotion, should this be a reason > for us to find him wanting in that respect? I think Alla said it better than me when she said: "But when I read about Harry at the end of OOP, who tries to tell Dumbledore that "she never loved me" and Dumbledore shuts him up in the middle of the sentence, THAT Harry is not rooted in fairy tale as much as he used to be ( for me anyway). I see a portrayal of hurt child, who is a realistic enough to demand answers and hopefully receive satisfactory answers." Lupinlore now: Put simply, many of us find DD's explanation at the end of OOTP cold and unsympathetic, and notably lacking in remorse for what he has put Harry through, whether with good reason or not. JKR obviously wants us to like and sympathize with Dumbledore and to regard him as a shiningly good character. Based on what we have seen of this issue, we can't go along with her, because we are far from convinced that he really cared very much whether Harry was suffering. Or to put it another way, we suspect from what we have seen so far that he regarded Harry merely as a weapon to be saved from harm, and that he really didn't care one way or another how Harry was treated. Now, many people have postulated that Dumbledore has experienced a great deal of anguish and tension over this issue. We see little evidence of that. If indeed we are to see Dumbledore as JKR obviously wants him to be seen, making some of that anguish and tension clear would be helpful. Otherwise, he simply seems like a cold chessmaster, perhaps fond of Harry and sorry for some of the things he did during Harry's fifth year, but overall really very uncaring about Harry as a person and simply concerned that his "plan" (whatever it is) move on apace. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Mar 23 05:19:56 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (rdoliver30) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:19:56 -0000 Subject: Leaning on the Dursleys was Hogwarts Teachers - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126509 > Carol notes: > Pathetic as Voldemort's attempts at harming Harry have been for > various plot-related reasons, he did succeed in Crucioing Harry > and he wants Harry dead. Making a child sleep in a cupboard with > spiders may be child abuse (or child neglect), but Crucio is a > form of torture. Nothing that the Dursleys have done or tried to > do compares with that. Nor have they repeatedly tried to murder > him. Yes, but none of that excuses the abuse they did inflict on him. It may be that Dumbledore had no choice in the matter, but that is far from obvious at the present juncture (at least to some of us). Now, it may be that JKR thinks she has made this clearer than she in fact has. But at the present, MUCH more detail is needed before we can see Dumbledore as the "epitome of goodness" she wants him to be seen as. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Mar 23 05:29:25 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (rdoliver30) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:29:25 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126510 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > > This post contains some spoilers for the dragonlance series. > > > > > > Here is where my cognative dissonace comes in. I *loathe* Snape. > there is nothing to like or love about the man and very little to > even respect about him. I don't want him to ever be shown as right > and I hope he's secretly evil just so someone can kick his behind. > But Raistlin, a character so similar to Snape it's astounding, is > one of my favorite literary characters of all time. Throughout the > entire series of the novels I rooted for Raist. Even when he was at > his worst, there was a part of me that desperately wanted him to > redeem and patch up his relationships with his former friends. I > found him entertaining, compelling, and sympathetic even when he was > at his darkest. > > Why? > > What makes Snape so contempable to me and many other people, while > similar literary characters can be just as dark and bitter and yet > still remain sympathetic and understandable--even in their own way > likeable. I do realize that Snape has his fans but he also has many > detractors. For those of you who've read both series or another > series with a Snape like character, what seperates Snape from them > to make him either more or less likeable and sympathetic? > Very interesting Phoenixgod. I HAVE read Dragonlance, and I see where you are drawing your comparison between the characters. Let me suggest how some differences may account for your different reactions. 1) Raistlin's sarcasm is equal-opportunity. He pretty much gives it to all sides without reserve. The only slight exception is Caramon, which is understandable as he is Raistlin's twin brother. Snape, on the other hand, is NOT equal-opportunity in his sarcasm. It is very much directed toward some characters more than others. 2) Raistlin rarely, if ever, is shown interacting with children, whereas that accounts for most of Snape's interactions. 3) Raistlin is shown from the very beginning as a being firmly anchored in human relationships with his brother and others of his former adventuring party. Snape is a radically disconnnected character, who seems actually to shun human relationships. 4) Finally, Raistlin is physically ill most of the time, unlike Snape. The automatic sympathy his wrenching sickness inspires helps to counteract his sarcasm. Snape has no such advantage. Just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 24 00:56:38 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (rdoliver30) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 00:56:38 -0000 Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA - Possible and Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126512 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > -While I haven't addressed it here, if Harry doesn't take Potions and > Snape doesn't teach DADA, I see plenty of room for conflict when Snape > takes over as faculty adviser for the DA Club. Speculating of course, > that the DA Club will be an open and offical club in the next book. Well, this is one I just can't see happening any more than I can see Harry getting an "O" on his potions owl. Dumbledore has plenty of evidence that these two despise each other. I just don't see him being stupid enough to put them in a tense situation where they are pointing wands at each other. As for Snape getting DADA -- I just don't know. Dumbledore seems to have an AWFULLY powerful suspicion of what would happen in that situation, a suspicion that can't help but be magnified by Snape's failure to control himself in Occlumency. If he can't resist a schoolboy grudge, how is he going to resist the Dark Arts? If Snape ever does get DADA, I have a sneaking suspicion it will be the beginning of the end for the Potions Master. Lupinlore From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 01:40:41 2005 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 01:40:41 -0000 Subject: Cockroach cluster Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126513 I've always been troubled by the many references to cockroaches in inappropriate places--such as candy, and as Lupin's solution to making the Boggart go look ridiculous. What is funny about a cockroach??? I just came across a reference to the words Cockroach Cluster in a list of twenty favorite MOnty Python sketches, in the skit "Crunchy Frog", referencing Cockroach clusters, on Entertainment Weekly (ew.com or through cnn). I believe that JKR is a big Monty Python fan so I thought this reference was a bit interesting. Crunchy Frog is apparently on DVD 2, Episode 6. Well if MOnty PYthon thought cockroach clusters were funny... Don't know what this all means (likely zip) but perhaps that is where she found the word to begin with. Maybe in her mind, a cockroach is associated with humor. mhbobbin From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 02:00:00 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:00:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Potions and DADA - Possible and Not In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050324020001.92391.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126514 > bboyminn wrote: > > Personally, I am forced to come up with alternate scenerios like > a new Potions teacher because I simply can not believe that Harry > got and 'O' in his Potion OWL. In the absents of that, I have to > create alternatives. Okay, how about this suggestion: Let's say Harry gets a really good mark on his Potions Owl. Not a GREAT mark, but a good one. But not enough to get into Potions based on Snape's standard of accepting only "O"-quality students. Now we KNOW - because JKR says so - that Harry's not spending much time at Privet Drive this summer, in fact it will be his shortest stay yet (not a direct quote). I suggest that Dumbledore will have Harry picked up at Privet Drive and brought to another location where he will learn Advanced Potions from this mysterious Felix What's-his-name so that he can prove that he can do the complicated stuff and thus have the equivalent of an "O". I'm not sure you can re-write your OWL (or what would be the point of cramming for the one at the end of the previous year?) but since Snape has the final say in what level of student he takes, he can presumably make an exception for a student who can prove that he's moved his marks up through remedial lessons? And who has a completely objective teacher in Felix WHN who can verify it - especially if FWHN was the Potions Teacher who taught Snape's generation at Hogwarts years ago? I'm rather pleased with this theory; connects a few different dots not normally in each other's neighbourhood, explains the book covers we've seen, introduces a new character and gives Snape a setback. And Harry gets into NEWT-level potions. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From elfundeb at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 02:09:08 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:09:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Elves and Slavery (Nel Question ## 1 & 2) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80f25c3a05032318092d06be9e@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126515 I'm going to improve on my record and actually post some thoughts about the house elves. For some reason, I end up on a Sirius tangent. > bboyminn: > Ah the elves, one of my favorite topics. Though I was disappointed to > not see my post in your list. From my list of my posts, see message > #126263. For my complete Q&A on elves see... > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71752 Sorry -- I did miss some, especially the older ones, as I did the search in reverse chronological order. There have been many thoughtful posts on the elves, and I know I did not include them all. > 2. If the HP novels endorse subjugation of the house elves, do they > endorse enslavement? Or should we instead see Rowling as recognizing > the limitations of social reform? Are we supposed to be outraged or > sympathetic to George Weasley's statement that the house elves are > happy (GoF, pg 211)? A related point: Hermione says that the house > elves have been brainwashed into accepting their jobs. Should we > agree with her? Do we see the means through which the elves are > brainwashed? It's interesting how this question focuses only on whether the house elves have been brainwashed. I think it's overreaching to describe the house elves as brainwashed, as the current connotations of the term suggest an intentional process of re-education, whereas the enslavement of the houe elves goes back centuries. What's really going on, in my view, is the usual process of culturization, and if it applies to the house elves, it applies to everyone else, too. If it is appropriate to state that the house elves have been brainwashed by wizarding culture to accept their subservient role, then it would be equally appropriate to assert that Hermione has been brainwashed by her bleeding-heart liberal muggle culture to assume that all beings must be free. And equally appropriate to assert that the Weasleys, who accept the house elves' enslavement (George comments in CoS that Molly wished she had a house elf), as brainwashed by the same WW culture. Everyone who buys into the norms of his/her culture without a thorough and detached appraisal is *brainwashed* in a sense. > B. Does the depiction of the treacherous Kreacher add an > additional dimension to our understanding of house elves and their > narrative function? Kreacher's description (as well as that of his > sleeping quarters), which emphasizes his filthiness rather than the > doll-like description of Dobby? What about his apparent endorsement > of the racist views of the Black family? Another *brainwashed* character. And Kreacher doesn't just accept the subservient role of house elves; he also seems to accept his family's pureblood mania, while Sirius does not. Though JKR's emphasis on choice indicates that Kreacher (and anyone else) must be held accountable for his or her actions notwithstanding that "Kreacher is what he has been made by wizards." Alla asked: > Davewitley wrote in message 39137: > Furthermore, he describes the condition of house-elves in a way that > leads the reader to believe that all are like him. In particular, he > mentions that the owners of elves *in general* are very careful not > to give clothes to their elves. The implication of this is that the > magical element is sufficiently important that both sides must obey > it. The natural reading of his words is that if, say Mr Crouch had > inadvertently given Winky a sock to hold, the would *both* have had > to accept that she was now free, *whether they liked it or not*. > > I think probably the explanation is that (as somebody pointed out in > connection with Neville's memory) a magical condition, as described > by Dobby, is being used as a metaphor for a psychological one, as > observed by the trio in GOF. With JKR we seem to get both the symbol > and the thing symbolised together, sometimes to our slight confusion > as we are left with two valid explanations occupying the same > intellectual space." > > Alla: > I would like to know what Dave meant when he said that " a magical > condition, as described by Dobby is being used as a metaphor fora > psychological one, as observed by Trio in GoF." I often feel that > symbols in HP series are not that simple as they may seem and since > my thinking of House Elves is quite simple, I would love to > understand the details of more sophisticated interpretations. The elves' servitude is a magical condition, subject to magical rules that have a force of their own. Dobby was freed by operation of those magical rules contrary to Lucius Malfoy's intent, in the same manner that Harry was forced by operation of a magical contract, without any intent of his own, to participate in the Triwizard Tournament. On the other hand, we as readers often see a thematic or metaphoric element to the magic. For example, the Department of Mysteries episode in OOP is a metaphor for all of the mysteries of life, but the physical manifestations of the mysteries have specific magical properties -- such as the bell jar that causes the DE to reverse its age. I have my own magical explanation for Dobby's independence; I have argued that he was at one time the Potters' house elf, and was only relocated to the Malfoys after the events at Godric's Hollow. However, I also think JKR is using Dobby, as well as Sirius, to make her point about the importance of personal choice, as they are two obvious exemplars of characters that reject the norms of the subculture in which they were raised. We are given no backstory to explain either one, though it would seem to be a natural area to explore, given the importance JKR seems to place on personal choice. When did Sirius learn that there was something wrong about his family's pureblood fanaticism? And if he was able to exercise his conscience to reject his family, why did it not extend to his treatment of house elves? The statement that Sirius regarded Kreacher "as a servant unworthy of attention or notice" suggests that in this respect he had absorbed the family's own upper-class views. However, Dumbledore then makes the apparently inconsistent statement that Sirius "was kind to house elves in general" but that he "had no love for Kreacher, because Kreacher was a living reminder of the home Sirius had hated." Somehow treating a class of beings as unworthy of attention or notice doesn't seem very "kind" to me. However, it does seem consistent with Sirius' general contempt of those he believed to be inferior to himself, such as Pettigrew and, for that matter, his own family. In his own words, "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." Debbie with apologies for focusing so much on Sirius, but I have a great deal of trouble with his character -- how I see Sirius act in the books just doesn't square with what JKR tries to tell us about him From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 02:25:30 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 02:25:30 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a "rules man"? (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126516 SSSusan: A point I agree with, Hannah. Think about the line in TMWSNBN, where Sirius says to Snape, "Once again you've applied your keen & penetrating mind to the task and as usual come to the wrong conclusion." It may not be verbatim from JKR's text, but I think it is an understandable accusation for someone to make against him. Logic, reason, "rules"-following all work tremendously well in potion- making, but in assessing human behavior...? vmonte responds: I agree with your assesment of Snape, SSSusan. Snape also has some major control issues. I'm pretty sure that something will happen in the future in which Snape will blunder big time and come to the wrong conclusion about something important--putting everyone in the Order in danger. I personally think that Dumbledore is taking a great risk in trusting Snape. Snape may be a methodical sort of person, but I don't see him as a rational man. Vivian From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Mar 24 03:35:55 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 03:35:55 -0000 Subject: House Elves and Slavery (Nel Question ## 1 & 2) In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a05032318092d06be9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, elfundeb wrote: However, Dumbledore then makes the > apparently inconsistent statement that Sirius "was kind to house elves > in general" but that he "had no love for Kreacher, because Kreacher > was a living reminder of the home Sirius had hated." Somehow > treating a class of beings as unworthy of attention or notice doesn't > seem very "kind" to me. However, it does seem consistent with Sirius' > general contempt of those he believed to be inferior to himself, such > as Pettigrew and, for that matter, his own family. In his own words, > "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he > treats his inferiors, not his equals." I agree with you on the accoultration vs brainwashing arguement, but I disagree with you about Sirius and Pettigrew. He's had a long time to do nothing but contemplate how much he hates the little rat. IMO, they were probably much better friends than you give him credit for. While Peter seemed rather servile in the pensieve memory, to me that seemed more indicative of JK not understanding male/male friendships more than anything else. Peter was a marauder, he became an animagus, his name is on the Marauders map, his voice is one of the chorus that speaks when the map is used. Guys just don't include a hanger-on in their plans like that that, while having as much contempt as for the individual that she is trying to portray between Peter and the others. for MPP to go to as much trouble as they do to help peter perform the transformation, and include him in their group and nickname, they have to have more respect for him than that. In my time, I have been in both postions, the hanger on, and the core group, and for peter to be a marauder, Sirus and the rest have to have respected him more than you and JK seem to think. > Debbie > with apologies for focusing so much on Sirius, but I have a great deal > of trouble with his character -- how I see Sirius act in the books > just doesn't square with what JKR tries to tell us about him I'm curious about what you mean by that. Could you explain further? phoenixgod2000 From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 24 03:38:47 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 03:38:47 -0000 Subject: Merlin's Beard! was Re: Prince/Hans/Salazar//MuggleClothes/Abuse... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > Fitzov wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125996 : > > << The biggest issue I have with the identity of the Half Blood > Prince, relates to the use of the title "Prince". JKR has give no > hints whatsoever that there is any equivalent of Wizard Monarchy, and > her books actually strike me as out-and-out republican. There are no > Kings and Queens, and therefore no Princes and Princesses. >> > > According to the Lexicon, > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/wizards-l-n.html#Merlin Merlin's > Famous Wizard card says: "Sometimes known as the Prince of > Enchanters." I thought he was called that because his magic was so > powerful, but I can't find that in the Lexicon. Catlady imamommy: OOOH! It would be very interesting to see Merlin, Rowling-style. After all, she's tackled a lot of other traditional legends and put her own spin on them. This may help support in some way the theory some posters hold that the Potter series draws heavily from Arthurian legend. imamommy From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 21:20:02 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:20:02 -0000 Subject: Vernon's outbursts (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126519 > Geoff: > I thing he is so "correctly" middle class that any deviation > from what he and Petunia see as "normal" behaviour creates a > reaction of anger or unease. So Harry collects the flak. He, > after all, does not fit the mould.... That makes lots of sense. And Harry's around him 24/7 to take the brunt of it all. So if there is anything off screen it's probably not as harsh as what is directed at the source of his discomfort- Harry. Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 21:35:22 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:35:22 -0000 Subject: Character Discussion: Ronald Bilius Weasley In-Reply-To: <20050323062522.31403.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126520 > Hans now: > The point is that everything Ron owns is second-hand. The earthly > personality doesn't own anything original. It's all handed down > from others. Even our ego is given to us by Voldemort. Chys: Yes, I think he has a big Ego. He thinks he can get away with everything, if he tries hard enough. I get it now, about the second hand rat. > Hans now: > How exactly Jo will symbolise the alchemical wedding of body, soul > and spirit I don't know. What I am sure of is that Harry > will triumph against Voldemort and enter eternity together with > Hermione and Ron. Chys: Guess we'll have to wait and see. I can find something to occupy my time between now and then. *sigh* I just don't know what she's got planned for Ron, and there is much discussion on that subject here. > Hans now: > Sirius I believe is in the original Kingdom of God. That's where > he belongs and Harry will unite with him sooner or later, depending > on whether he chooses to be a Bodhisattva and take Hagrid's place. > I think he will. The animagus form is of course a symbol of the > character's purpose in the story. Chys: Ah, that makes sense, even for the other animagus in the story. It does sort of reflect them nicely. > " if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the > intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's > coming in the books." JK Rowling Chys: I'm still not sure what that means, but I'll go along with it. Chys From lexical74 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 04:31:02 2005 From: lexical74 at yahoo.com (Brian Brinkman) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 04:31:02 -0000 Subject: Cockroach cluster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126521 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhbobbin" wrote: > > > I've always been troubled by the many references to cockroaches in > inappropriate places--such as candy, and as Lupin's solution to > making the Boggart go look ridiculous. What is funny about a > cockroach??? > (snip) > I believe that JKR is a big Monty Python > fan so I thought this reference was a bit interesting. >(snip) > Don't know what this all means (likely zip) but perhaps that is > where she found the word to begin with. Maybe in her mind, a > cockroach is associated with humor. > > mhbobbin Brian: I think that's a possibility. In the US, Monty Python humor seems to be viewed as offbeat and appreciated mostly by "smart people." I wonder if that's true in the UK and if it's merely a famous example of "British humor"? Then there's JKR's enjoyment of alliteration. Sometimes the alliteration reminds me that the books were originally marketed as children's books. The Shrieking Shack, Marauders Map as blatant examples. Then there's Severus Snape, Minerva McGonagall, Willy Widdershins, Dudley Dursley (also assonant), Godric Gryffindor, Rowena Ravenclaw, Helga Hufflepuff, and Salazar Slytherin. I like alliteration and there's nothing inherently juvenile about it, but in the "grammar" of American lit., too much alliteration can destroy verisimilitude (but maybe that's not an issue here). So, it's possible that cockroach cluster is just another example of alliteration from an author who enjoys it. Brian Brinkman (My parents liked alliteration, too.) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 05:20:44 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 05:20:44 -0000 Subject: House Elves and Slavery (Nel Question ## 1 & 2) In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a05032318092d06be9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126522 Debby: The statement that Sirius regarded Kreacher "as a servant unworthy of attention or notice" suggests that in this respect he had absorbed the family's own upper-class views. However, Dumbledore then makes the apparently inconsistent statement that Sirius "was kind to house elves in general" but that he "had no love for Kreacher, because Kreacher was a living reminder of the home Sirius had hated." Somehow treating a class of beings as unworthy of attention or notice doesn't seem very "kind" to me. However, it does seem consistent with Sirius' general contempt of those he believed to be inferior to himself, such as Pettigrew and, for that matter, his own family. In his own words, "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." Alla: I do wonder why you consider those two statements to be inconsistent with each other. I read it as him considering ONE particular House Elf to be servant unworthy of attention or notice, not the whole class of beings, but that is just my interpretation. Accordingly Dumbledore's next statement "kind to House Elves in general" makes perfect sense to me. I mean we did not get a chance to see it, but I see no logical contradiction within Dumbledore's words. ( Alla tries to not start ranting again on how much she dislikes the timing of that speech) One more thing - I get that JKR tries to get across the message about nicer treatment for Kreacher, but again I just dislike him SO much. I do wish that Sirius treated him better - for safety reasons, but I speculate that nothing would have stopped Kreacher from betraying the Order. JMO of course, Alla From tinglinger at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 05:43:38 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 05:43:38 -0000 Subject: The Lovegoods at the World Cup Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126523 I believe that Luna is going to play a major role in the HBP. Her family name is first mentioned in Goblet of Fire as attending the World Cup. "No, the Lovegoods have been there for a week already and the Fawcetts couldn't get tickets," said Mr. Diggory. GOF US ed, pg. 73) I was curious why the name was mentioned in Goblet of Fire, when Luna was not formally introduced until OOP. After rereading Chapters 8 and 9 of GOF, I realized that there were at least two purposes of introducing the Lovegood name in GOF. First, it establishes that Luna and her dad are interested enough in Quidditch to be at the World Cup a week early. This established Luna's fascination with Quidditch in OOP. It also explains why she would go so far as to make funny and outrageous hats, which may or may not be used later. Second, it established that both Luna and her dad probably saw the Dark Mark, and, if they didn't before, know now what it symbolizes. I have said here before that Luna's dad is in mortal danger because of his role in breaking the story of LV's escape through Harry's interview with Rita Skeeter that appeared in his magazine. His death would serve a lot of purposes plotwise and can move the story in an unexpected direction. The Dark Lord always knows and is never forgiving. I fear that Luna's dad will be one of the first, if not THE first casualty of the Second War. Tinglinger who has recently created a yahoo group for theories and plotlines for the Harry Potter series which you are welcome to check out at http:://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 06:53:16 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 06:53:16 -0000 Subject: Cockroach cluster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhbobbin" wrote: > > > I've always been troubled by the many references to cockroaches in > inappropriate places--such as candy, and as Lupin's solution to > making the Boggart go look ridiculous. What is funny about a > cockroach??? > > ...edited... > > Maybe in her mind, a cockroach is associated with humor. > > mhbobbin bboyminn: Well, on one hand, it's the oddness and absurdity of it. Remember Cockroach Cluster are mentioned along with Blood Flavored Lollipops. So I think part of it is to reflect the unusual tastes of the wizard world. Of course, we must consider that candied insects are actually not that uncommon. So while it reflects 'unusual tastes' in the wizard world, it wouldn't be that unusual for people to actually each them. I looked for the reference to Lupin, Boggarts, and cockroachs and couldn't find it, but I would speculate that part of what makes the anti-Boggart charm effective is not the humor in the converted shape, but in the contrast. The humor in turning a big woolly bear into a cockroach, is in turning something large and fierce into something small and helpless. Ok, it's not a big laugh, but to each his own. So, again, it's not cockroachs themselves that are funny but the context and contrast in which they are applied in the story. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 07:17:02 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:17:02 -0000 Subject: Kings, Wizards, and Princes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126525 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > Fitzov wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125996 : > > << The biggest issue I have with the identity of the Half Blood > Prince, relates to the use of the title "Prince". JKR has give no > hints whatsoever that there is any equivalent of Wizard Monarchy, > and her books actually strike me as out-and-out republican. There > are no Kings and Queens, and therefore no Princes and Princesses. >> > > Catlady replies: > > According to the Lexicon, > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/wizards-l-n.html#Merlin Merlin's > Famous Wizard card says: "Sometimes known as the Prince of > Enchanters." I thought he was called that because his magic was so > powerful, but I can't find that in the Lexicon. > bboyminn: But there are kings, queens, and princes in JKR's world, because JKR sets her fictional world in the real world that means Elizabeth is Queen, her son Charles and his sons Harry and William are Princes. That is true in our world and in hers. Personally, I would love it if Prince Harry and/or Prince William appeared in the story, although I don't think that will happen, so someday, I'll have to write it myself. Here is one way, we could have a half-blood Prince. If Viktor Krum's father, a wizard, married into the royal family of Bulgaria, then Viktor would be a half-blood prince. That may or may not make him THE Half-Blood Prince, but still... a half-blood Prince. The HBP in question could be a by-product of the intermarriage of Royal and magical from any of the European countries that have or at one point in history had a Monarchy; Spain, Demnark, Germany, Sweden, Italy, Greece, etc.... Also, remember that in VERY ancient times, the country side of each of these European countries was dotted with minor kings, only later was rule consolidated into a single Royal family for each country. The Half-Blood Prince might be a decendant of one of the minor kings. In addition, let us not forget the Merlin was the advisor and guide to King Arthur. That is very commonly true in legend and fairytale. Many stories are based around the Royal family being advised by a dark wizard who seeks to gain power, or a /light/ wizard who seeks to protect and defend the Royal family. If a decendant of Merlin at some point married a decendant of King Arthur, that would again give us a Half-Blood Prince. Although, I will agree in general that the wizard world doesn't have it's own separate Royalty. Just a few minor points. Steve/bboyminn From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Mar 24 07:48:32 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:48:32 -0000 Subject: Cockroach cluster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126526 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > bboyminn: > I looked for the reference to Lupin, Boggarts, and cockroachs and > couldn't find it, but I would speculate that part of what makes the > anti-Boggart charm effective is not the humor in the converted shape, > but in the contrast. The humor in turning a big woolly bear into a > cockroach, is in turning something large and fierce into something > small and helpless. Ok, it's not a big laugh, but to each his own. > > So, again, it's not cockroachs themselves that are funny but the > context and contrast in which they are applied in the story. Geoff: Just for reference: 'Ron leapt forward. Crack! Quite a few people screamed. A giant spider, six feet tall and covered in hair, was advancing on Ron, clicking its pincers menacingly. For a moment Harry though Ron had frozen. Then - "Riddikulus!" bellowed Ron and the spider's legs vanished. It rolled over and over; Lavender Brown squealed and ran out of its way and it came to a halt at Harry's feet. He raised his wand ready but - "Here!" shouted Professor Lupin suddenly, hurrying forward. Crack! The legless spider had vanished. For a second, everyone looked wildly around to see where it was. Then they saw a silvery-white orb hanging in the air in front of Lupin who said "Riddikulus!" almos lazily. Crack! "Forward, Neville, and finish him off!" said Lupin as the Boggart landed on the floor as a cockroach.' (POA "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" pp.104-105 UK edition) Interesting thought there is: Whose fears provoked the appearance of the cockroach? From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 08:29:55 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:29:55 -0000 Subject: Young men/bad decisions - Back to Mommy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126527 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > Potioncat: > > Regulus seems to have some respect from fandom because he died > trying to leave the DEs. So why is Snape seen differently? > > > SSSusan: > Interesting observation about the timing of two DEs' defections. > And a fair enough question about why many fans see Snape differently > than they see Regulus. > > > Alla: > > I am a little bit puzzled. I don't think I ever assigned Regulus > deflection more respect than I assigned to Snape, but come to think > of it, I would argue the opposite to your argument, Susan. > > I think the difference between the two is that... We know that > Regulus did not have a stomach for whatever particular athrocity > Voldie and Co wanted him to commit and he tried to quit. Yes, I > respect him for that. > > As to Snape, we know that he told Dumbledore his story and he > believed it, that is it. I just want to be 100% sure that Snape > deflected for real and for good reasons. I believe it for the most > part, but sometimes, I experience tinge of doubt and I don't like it. > > When I have no doubt, I respect both men's deflection equally. > >...edited... > > Just my opinion, > > Alla bboyminn: In a nutshell here is the difference between these two men. Regulus quit the dark side, Snape joined the good side; big difference. While Regulus did quit the dark side, we have no sign that he redeemed or reformed in any way; no sign that he changed his /Black/ attitudes. He simply got in over his head, and didn't have the stomach for what he was being asked to do for the /cause/. Snape on the other hand, as far as we have been lead to believe, has completely renounced his dark side, and is actively fighting for and with the good side. Because of his functions as a Spy, he still has to retain the image that he supports the pureblood ideals, and that he is not completely adverse to a little dark magic now and then. That's not that hard to do while Voldemort was gone. Basically, it's just a lot of tough talk while Snape and the gang are guaffing ales and complaining about how the Purebloods are so /put upon/ by the world at large. A fairly easy task. Now that Voldemort is back, things are much more difficult and dangerous for Snape. He may indeed be asked to do things that his new outlook on life won't allow him to do. Fortunately, Snape gets to spend most of his time away from Voldemort, and his position at the school means he is not available for the routine raids and missions that the rank and file Death Eaters must carry out; convenient. So, I see a big difference between Snape and Regulus. Snape made a very big change in alleginace and philosophy, whereas Regulus just wanted to go back home to his mommy. Just a thought. Bboyminn/Steve From HMaffioli at cox.net Thu Mar 24 07:02:53 2005 From: HMaffioli at cox.net (Heather Maffioli) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:02:53 -0800 Subject: Python's Cockroach cluster References: Message-ID: <008e01c5303f$7fac5340$6401a8c0@sd.cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 126528 mhbobbin: > I've always been troubled by the many references to cockroaches in > inappropriate places--such as candy, and as Lupin's solution to > making the Boggart go look ridiculous. What is funny about a > cockroach??? > > ...edited... > > Maybe in her mind, a cockroach is associated with humor. bboyminn: > So, again, it's not cockroachs themselves that are funny but the > context and contrast in which they are applied in the story. Now Me: Cockroach cluster is a Monty Python reference. JK has mentioned this in at least one interview. It is from a sketch called Wizzo and is about a bizarre chocolate company. http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Scripts/HollywoodBowl/hollywood.html#whizzo Constable: Well, why don't you move into more conventional areas of confectionery, like praline or lime cream, a very popular flavor I'm met to understand, or Strawberry Delight? I mean, what's this one? "Cockroach Cluster?" And this, "Anthrax Ripple?" ~Heather From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Thu Mar 24 07:27:18 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:27:18 -0000 Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA - let's twist again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126529 There's been reams of discussion about Snape's doomed ambition to teach DADA, and the rich assortment of eccentrics that DD has had to employ instead of Snape ... So, let's look at it from a slightly different angle. Some of the professors are brilliant - others, let's say, not. Presumably this suggests that there isn't an infinite pool of talented would-be staff members out there, queueing up for Hogwarts jobs. So, since we also know that Snape is brilliant at Potions (though rating at best a Needs To Improve at public relations), shouldn't we start to wonder who DD could appoint in Snape's place if he gave him the DADA post? After all, a weak DADA teacher is just that; a weak/incompetent Potions teacher could blow up the school, magic enchantments or not! Deborah From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Thu Mar 24 09:04:06 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:04:06 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126530 Lupinlore: > > Put simply, many of us find DD's explanation at the end of OOTP cold > and unsympathetic, and notably lacking in remorse for what he has put > Harry through, whether with good reason or not. > > > > Now, many people have postulated that Dumbledore has experienced a > great deal of anguish and tension over this issue. We see little > evidence of that. If indeed we are to see Dumbledore as JKR > obviously wants him to be seen, making some of that anguish and > tension clear would be helpful. Otherwise, he simply seems like a > cold chessmaster, perhaps fond of Harry and sorry for some of the > things he did during Harry's fifth year, but overall really very > uncaring about Harry as a person and simply concerned that his "plan" > (whatever it is) move on apace. > John, again: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. JKR cannot re-mould DD's character, refine his flaws, just to satisfy the demands of us readers. He is supposed to be seen as "good", yes, but JKR has made just as concerted an effort to show that DD is not perfect, not infallible; in short, he's human. DD does *appear* a fairly detached individual at times(such as at the end of OOTP, as cited by Lupinlore), I agree, but that does not mean he is any less compassionate/sympathetic then those of us who "proudly wear [our] hearts on our sleeves." DD's persona seems, to me, to be a coping mechanism for all the ills he has seen and experienced during his time. His acting whimsically, etc., appears to be another way of bearing that burden. [Just one question: to what extent do you think DD has been desensitized by his many experiences of human suffering?] There is one other point to be made here, I think. DD, when he planned Harry's future and ultimately left him on the Dursley's doorstep, may have felt some attachment to the boy, but I doubt very much whether he *loved* him, as such. The same applies to Harry's first ten years with the Durlseys. Only after Harry came to Hogwarts, and met the challenges confronting him there, did DD's feelings for the boy develop. That must be kept in mind, I feel, when analyzing his original decision, and the said anguish and tension that went into it. As to the supposed lack of remorse 15 years later, well I've given my view on that. Note that those very mistakes DD made during OOTP that you refer to were, in fact, borne out of his *love* for, and, as a consequence, certain blindness towards, Harry. So he certainly cares deeply about Harry even though, one might argue, he isn't under *any* duty to "love" him, such as a father would love a son, such that DD now does. Obviously these fairly irreconcilable positions mean that we aren't going to reach genuine consensus on this topic; I suppose both points of view are subjective ones, and I suppose it is the rather different approaches to these books employed by readers that lie at the very heart of the issue. Unless I'm much mistaken many of the readers identifying with Lupinlore find Harry's suffering very real (sorry, can't really express that any better; hope you understand what I'm getting at). For me, the fact that Harry and his suffering are fictional events make it quite easy to, firstly, see DD's decisions from a logical standpoint and, secondly, to put forth a defense of his actions. In "real life" I daresay my stance would be a little different. Just a (particularly long-winded) pile of Storge, I guess, but that's my point of view. John. From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Thu Mar 24 09:31:09 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:31:09 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a "rules man"? (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126531 > vmonte: > I agree with your assesment of Snape, SSSusan. Snape also has some > major control issues. I'm pretty sure that something will happen in > the future in which Snape will blunder big time and come to the wrong > conclusion about something important--putting everyone in the Order > in danger. I personally think that Dumbledore is taking a great risk > in trusting Snape. Snape may be a methodical sort of person, but I > don't see him as a rational man. > John: With regard to "control issues" Snape only has one; no, two; no wait, THREE, as far as I'm concerned: Sirius Black, James Potter and son Harry, and they all of them involve "letting go." You have to have a fair amount of self-discipline, I figure, to master occlu-thingy and to play double-agent with our good friend Voldy (add stoppering-of-death to the list if you're one of *those* people). If Snape *does* screw up? You can sure as heck bet it will involve one of Harry, James and Sirius. John. From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Thu Mar 24 09:51:18 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:51:18 -0000 Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA - Possible and Not In-Reply-To: <20050324020001.92391.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126532 > Magda wrote: > Okay, how about this suggestion: > > Let's say Harry gets a really good mark on his Potions Owl. Not a > GREAT mark, but a good one. But not enough to get into Potions based > on Snape's standard of accepting only "O"-quality students. > > Now we KNOW - because JKR says so - that Harry's not spending much > time at Privet Drive this summer, in fact it will be his shortest > stay yet (not a direct quote). > > I suggest that Dumbledore will have Harry picked up at Privet Drive > and brought to another location where he will learn Advanced Potions > from this mysterious Felix What's-his-name so that he can prove that > he can do the complicated stuff and thus have the equivalent of an > "O". I'm not sure you can re-write your OWL (or what would be the > point of cramming for the one at the end of the previous year?) but > since Snape has the final say in what level of student he takes, he > can presumably make an exception for a student who can prove that > he's moved his marks up through remedial lessons? > > And who has a completely objective teacher in Felix WHN who can > verify it - especially if FWHN was the Potions Teacher who taught > Snape's generation at Hogwarts years ago? > > I'm rather pleased with this theory; connects a few different dots > not normally in each other's neighbourhood, explains the book covers > we've seen, introduces a new character and gives Snape a setback. > And Harry gets into NEWT-level potions. > John: The problem is, we don't meet this Felix fellow (if he *is* a fellow) until Chapter 14 or something, and I doubt that we'll be spending 13 or more chapters at this Spinners End location. Just substitute *him* for someone else and you've got yourself a good theory going. I, too, feel that Harry will take remedial potions. He'll be in for some pretty hard work if he wants to get himslef up to scratch in that time; but maybe he will finally start to take his studies, esp. potions, seriously? Personally, I think that book cover with the potions booklet could hold the key to Voldy's present disfigurement and near-immortality. The name of the author stems from the word libation, which means the pouring of a drink, particularly for some sort of god. Extra fodder for Snape-as-stopperer-of-death theorists, perhaps? We *will*, after all, find out quite a lot more about Voldy in this book. Just a random, possibly incoherent, set of thoughts. John, logging off to the blessed relief of all concerned, no doubt. From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 24 09:13:39 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:13:39 -0000 Subject: Snape the Arch-enemy (was Re: DD's dilemma + owl post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126533 Pippin: > Jen, you've made me see Lupinlore's objections to JKR's > portrayal of Dumbledore in an entirely new light. ...Harry ought to -- that > he has cause for bitter resentment against Dumbledore above > and beyond the faults that Dumbledore has acknowledged, and > that if Dumbledore won't admit it, then what passes for good in > the Wizarding World isn't really worth saving. Yes, Harry certainly does have a right to feel the way you describe, but I suspect things will be quite a bit more complicated than that. I would not be surprised for Harry in HBP to be very withdrawn, depressed, and secretive, plagued by doubts, fears, guilt, hatred, and resentment. If OOTP was the story of no one communicating with Harry, I wonder if HBP will be the reverse, the story of Harry communicating with no one. Add the pressures of a war, and you have the makings of a deep and persistant problem for Dumbledore, the Order, and Harry's friends. I rather doubt we will see Harry shouting at Dumbledore again. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if we see something worse -- a cold, somewhat mean and sarcastic Harry who is beginning to show altogether too many Snapish qualities for the Headmaster's comfort. We saw the beginnings of such, perhaps, in Harry's confrontation with Draco/Snape at the end of OOTP. I have sometimes theorized that in a way Snape is really Harry's arch-enemy, not Voldemort. I don't mean that Snape is LITERALLY Harry's arch-enemy, but rather that he symbolizes a much greater danger because of the psychological trap he embodies. I don't see any danger of Harry ever turning into another Voldemort. I think turning into another Snape is a more realistic possibility. That won't happen, I'm sure, but I think we may see Harry teetering on that precipice from time to time in HBP. And that will represent a more complicated challenge for Harry's friends than any simple resentment toward Dumbledore or hatred for Snape, no matter how powerful those emotions might be. Lupinlore From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Mar 24 12:39:39 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:39:39 -0000 Subject: Cockroach cluster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126534 Geoff wrote snip "...Then they saw a silvery-white orb hanging > in the air in front of Lupin who said "Riddikulus!" almos lazily. > Crack! > "Forward, Neville, and finish him off!" said Lupin as the Boggart > landed on the floor as a cockroach.' > > (POA "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" pp.104-105 UK edition) > > Interesting thought there is: Whose fears provoked the appearance of > the cockroach? Potioncat: I absolutely do not believe it! I cannot count the number of time this scene has been discussed/debated/argued. I don't remember anyone pointing this out. Lupin isn't turning the Boggart Orb into a cockroach. The "crack" is the counter-spelled Boggart turning into someone else's fear. We aren't told in PoA or in OoP what Lupin's counter-spelled Boggart becomes. (Although Pippin has said that Lupin doesn't really dispell the Boggart.) I'll have to give this some thought, but I still think there is a literary reason for Orb to cockroach to Boggart!Snape AND blood flavored candy near cockroach clusters AND Lupin's orb to cockroach/Snape's exploding jar of cockroaches. BTW, how common are cockroaches in England? I think of them as warm climate pests. Potioncat From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 24 13:25:54 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:25:54 -0000 Subject: Young men/bad decisions - Back to Mommy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126535 bboyminn: > In a nutshell here is the difference between these two men. Regulus > quit the dark side, Snape joined the good side; big difference. SSSusan: True, though I would argue that there seems to be a fairly good-sized segment of the fandom which doesn't fully trust this change of Snape's. bboyminn: > Snape made a very big change in alleginace and philosophy, whereas > Regulus just wanted to go back home to his mommy. SSSusan: *Possibly.* Since we don't know the circustances of Regulus' decision, it could be just as you described, or it could be he would've "turned good." Which was really my point -- that because we don't know, it's fully open to any scenario one wishes, including extremely positive ones. Snape's open to extremely positive outcomes, too, I suppose, but with him, since we see his nastiness & pettiness & even cruelty in the here & now, even if we believe his choice to join the good side was a sincere one, it's much more difficult to fantasize about his becoming a Really Good Guy, you know? Siriusly Snapey Susan From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Mar 24 15:18:19 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:18:19 -0000 Subject: Cockroach cluster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Potioncat: > BTW, how common are cockroaches in England? I think of them as warm > climate pests. Geoff: They can be surprisingly common especially in places like kitchens or houses in general where basic hygienic requirements have been ignored. From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 24 15:23:23 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:23:23 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126537 John said: > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. JKR cannot re- mould > DD's character, refine his flaws, just to satisfy the demands of us > readers. He is supposed to be seen as "good", yes, but JKR has made > just as concerted an effort to show that DD is not perfect, not > infallible; in short, he's human. DD does *appear* a fairly detached > individual at times(such as at the end of OOTP, as cited by > Lupinlore), I agree, but that does not mean he is any less > compassionate/sympathetic then those of us who "proudly wear [our] > hearts on our sleeves." DD's persona seems, to me, to be a coping > mechanism for all the ills he has seen and experienced during his > time. His acting whimsically, etc., appears to be another way of > bearing that burden. [Just one question: to what extent do you think > DD has been desensitized by his many experiences of human suffering?] True, I suppose, but nevertheless rather beside the point. The point is that JKR is trying to sell a particular image of Dumbledore, and it just isn't getting across. If he is indeed "compassionate/sympathetic" then we need to see much greater evidence of that than we have received to this point. You say that JKR can't remold his character just to please readers. I suppose that is true. However, if sympathy/compassion ARE part of his character presumably they can be revealed in a relatively clear fashion. At this time, to many of us, postulating a cold and manipulative Dumbledore simply fits the evidence better than a sympathetic/compassionate Dumbledore who for some reason behaves in bizarre ways not very consistent with sympathy or compassion. > > There is one other point to be made here, I think. DD, when he > planned Harry's future and ultimately left him on the Dursley's > doorstep, may have felt some attachment to the boy, but I doubt very > much whether he *loved* him, as such. The same applies to Harry's > first ten years with the Durlseys. Only after Harry came to > Hogwarts, and met the challenges confronting him there, did DD's > feelings for the boy develop. That must be kept in mind, I feel, > when analyzing his original decision, and the said anguish and > tension that went into it. > True, but that does not help Dumbledore's case. It only makes him look like a cold and reprehensible person who uses an infant as a pawn in his schemes. > As to the supposed lack of remorse 15 years later, well I've given > my view on that. Note that those very mistakes DD made during OOTP > that you refer to were, in fact, borne out of his *love* for, and, > as a consequence, certain blindness towards, Harry. So he certainly > cares deeply about Harry even though, one might argue, he isn't > under *any* duty to "love" him, such as a father would love a son, > such that DD now does. > I really am curious what evidence you see, John, for Dumbledore having any remorse for Harry's suffering? I'm not trying to be a smart-a**, I'm really curious. I grant that he seems sorry for his mistakes of Harry's fifth year, but I see no evidence at all that he has any remorse for the pain his decisions have inflicted on Harry over the last fifteen years. And absence evidence of such sorrow, and a much better explanation of his decisions, then I and others simply don't see him the way JKR wishes us to. > > Obviously these fairly irreconcilable positions mean that we aren't > going to reach genuine consensus on this topic; I suppose both > points of view are subjective ones, and I suppose it is the rather > different approaches to these books employed by readers that lie at > the very heart of the issue. Unless I'm much mistaken many of the > readers identifying with Lupinlore find Harry's suffering very real > (sorry, can't really express that any better; hope you understand > what I'm getting at). For me, the fact that Harry and his suffering > are fictional events make it quite easy to, firstly, see DD's > decisions from a logical standpoint and, secondly, to put forth a > defense of his actions. In "real life" I daresay my stance would be > a little different. This may be true, I suppose. It is, in any case, similar to something Kneasy said some months ago. Like I say, for whatever reason, JKR needs to give us a lot better explanation and a look at this compassion/sympathy of Dumbledore before I can buy into her description of him. Absent that, her characterization is unbelievable, and into the trash the books go. Lupinlore From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 15:56:51 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:56:51 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126539 Lupinlore: I really am curious what evidence you see, John, for Dumbledore having any remorse for Harry's suffering? I'm not trying to be a smart-a**, I'm really curious. I grant that he seems sorry for his mistakes of Harry's fifth year, but I see no evidence at all that he has any remorse for the pain his decisions have inflicted on Harry over the last fifteen years. And absence evidence of such sorrow, and a much better explanation of his decisions, then I and others simply don't see him the way JKR wishes us to. Alla: Yes, I agree. I've also been thinking - what could have convinced me better that Dumbledore is sorry for doing what he did? NO, I don't think that JKR owes us such explanation or trying to improve the story :) or anything like that, I am just trying to suggest what could have sold me on that idea. I definitely DON'T need Dumbledore to become hysterical during his speech at the end of OOP. I agree it would have been a little wierd, BUT I do need a little bit more of emotion, just a little bit - like for example when Harry looks at Dumbledore he could see , I don't know , shame in his eyes, or something like that. Also as I said earlier - I DEFINITELY could go without Dumbledore "cutting accross" ,when Harry says that "she never loved me". I wanted Dumbledore to listen better and acknowledge that Harry has every right to feel as he feels and dislike his time spent with Dursleys. I also would like Dumbledore to SPELL IT OUT - something like - I would NEVER left you with Dursleys, if there was any chance that you could survive without it and I am very sorry for what you suffered at their hands, but unfortunately I had no other choice. This is just not the issue, where I want to second guess the author and figure out what she was trying to say. I mean, it can be interesting quite often, but on this issue, I want JKR to be very clear and I just don't think that she is. Unless of course Puppetmaster!Dumbledore is what she was trying to present, then to me she succeeded, but it does not look to me that this was her intent, and this is of course IMO only. John: Unless I'm much mistaken many of the readers identifying with Lupinlore find Harry's suffering very real (sorry, can't really express that any better; hope you understand what I'm getting at). For me, the fact that Harry and his suffering are fictional events make it quite easy to, firstly, see DD's decisions from a logical standpoint and, secondly, to put forth a defense of his actions. In "real life" I daresay my stance would be a little different. Alla: You meant that for us Harry's sufferings are realistically portrayed, right? Not that we can't distinguish between reality and fiction? :) Many books I love I read on two or more different levels of perceptions - my feelings or emotions are definitely involved and of course my intellectual side is involved in it too. The funny thing is that quite often no matter how strongly I identify with the character on the emotional level, I can analyse him on the inellectual level, no problem and see the different side of it. But, even if I take "the coldest", most intellectual approach to Dumbledore's speech at the end of OOP, I am just not buying it, sorry. Dumbledore does not defend himself to me very logically, I am afraid. I mean I can figure out what IS the possible defense, but I want it to be written better. Just my opinion of course, Alla. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 24 16:20:48 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:20:48 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126540 Lupinlore wrote: > True, I suppose, but nevertheless rather beside the point. The > point is that JKR is trying to sell a particular image of > Dumbledore, and it just isn't getting across. If he is > indeed "compassionate/sympathetic" then we need to see much greater > evidence of that than we have received to this point. You say that > JKR can't remold his character just to please readers. I suppose > that is true. However, if sympathy/compassion ARE part of his > character presumably they can be revealed in a relatively clear > fashion. At this time, to many of us, postulating a cold and > manipulative Dumbledore simply fits the evidence better than a > sympathetic/compassionate Dumbledore who for some reason behaves in > bizarre ways not very consistent with sympathy or compassion. Hannah now: I was going to post something similar myself, Lupinlore, but you've put it better than I could! JKR keeps telling us, both personally in interviews, and through her characters, that DD is good, benevolent, powerful, virtually omniscient etc., and yet the character she shows us through his actions in the books doesn't measure up to that at all. I like the theory of puppetmaster!DD, and I think, when the books are as closely analysed and discussed as they are here on HPfGU, it emerges as a stong theory with lots of evidence to back it up. Yet I don't believe JKR intends for this to happen; at least, I don't think that there will ever be an explicit 'Merlin's beard! DD's been setting this up all along!' moment in canon, because she doesn't seem to see him like that. I hope she addresses some of his incomprehensible blunders and decisions in later books. I doubt that she will. With DD, it's a matter of faith. She wants us to believe what she tells us, blindly, no matter what evidence comes to the contrary. John wrote: > > There is one other point to be made here, I think. DD, when he > > planned Harry's future and ultimately left him on the Dursley's > > doorstep, may have felt some attachment to the boy, but I doubt > very > > much whether he *loved* him, as such. The same applies to Harry's > > first ten years with the Durlseys. Only after Harry came to > > Hogwarts, and met the challenges confronting him there, did DD's > > feelings for the boy develop. That must be kept in mind, I feel, > > when analyzing his original decision, and the said anguish and > > tension that went into it. Hannah: Just because DD didn't *love* Harry at the time, that was no excuse to abandon him to his abusive relatives for ten years. All adults have a moral responsibility to protect children when they have to power to do so, regardless of whether they love, like, dislike, or don't even know them. If DD is as powerful as JKR wants us to believe, I'm sure there's something he could have done to improve the way that Harry was treated. However, it appears he did not. The Dursleys don't love Harry, but that doesn't make it OK for them to have locked him in a cupboard and told him he's worthless for ten years (I know that's an extreme example, but it's the same principle). Vernon and Petunia had a responsibility to treat Harry better than they did. DD, as self-appointed adoption-fixer, also had a responsibility to ensure Harry was treated properly for those ten vital formative years. Whether or not he loved or was attached to Harry, he still had a responsibility towards him. From what we see in canon, he does not appear to have fulfilled that duty. Hannah From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Mar 24 16:12:28 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:12:28 -0000 Subject: The "choosing evil" difference (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: Nora: > I think that Snape is very likely the type to confuse genuine respect and esteem with the respect generated from the fear of power. < Pippin: I think that's very true, but that doesn't mean that genuine respect isn't what Snape really wants, if only he knew how to get it. It's difficult for me to reconcile Quirrel's "There is no good and evil" with Dumbledore's speech that Voldemort knows that love has a power, though he has always discounted it. I think Quirrel was deceived and Fake!Moody was telling the truth. Voldemort knows there is an intrinsic difference between the dark and the light. As Fake!Moody says, he had the very great pleasure of killing his father to ensure the continued rise of the Dark Forces. I think Snape turned away from the Dark Arts when he found they couldn't give him what he wanted, which doesn't mean it would be safe for him to fool around with them again. Nora: > Snape the "sadistic teacher who abuses his power" seems to get a low- grade kick out of exercising his power over others. That may well come from some deep rooted fears of inadequacy. I don't think it's as benign as you would like to present it, but we shall all have to see, no?< Pippin: Benign? No, but I don't really understand the view of those who think the kids are being traumatized for life. To me it's like thinking that Charlie Brown ought to have brain damage from all the times he's fallen on his head after Lucy jerked the football away from him. Lucy's not benign, but it would be silly to treat her bullying as attempted murder just because it's so graphically depicted. Pippin From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 24 16:42:50 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:42:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Arthur and Molly Message-ID: <20050324164250.8371.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126542 The pituitary gland, as you no doubt all know, is the master gland. It is close to the central consciousness in the head and it regulates the other endocrine glands. "But", I hear you shout, "how can two people personify one gland?" Easily, because the pituitary gland or hypophysis has two lobes, the anterior and the posterior lobes. According to the liberating teachings, the lobes are oppositely charged, while in men and women they are also oppositely charged. What really stunned me was the chakra that is associated with this. It's the brow chakra, and I was really dumbfounded to discover that half the chakra is red, and the other half indigo. Red for Arthur and indigo for Molly! Jo, your ingenuity is mind-blowing! >From there it's a small step in the imagination to make all the kids red headed, as red is a fairly predominant colour in the chakras, and Ginny's chakra is a brilliant red. Unfortunately I can't tell you a lot more about this. I believe that when the brow chakra starts to turn the other way the new consciousness is born. This is (need I say) the moment of victory, the moment death has been conquered for ever. This is the death of the ordinary temporary consciousness. It just merges into the new consciousness as a candle flame merges into the sun. It's no longer there - yet it has become part of the great, divine consciousness that is permanently linked to God. This is the culmination of book 7. Every member of the Weasley family will play a crucial role in this, as well as Neville, Draco, Crabbe & Goyle and others. There's one other point associated with this. As I said, the pituitary gland has two lobes. The anterior lobe, according to the teachings of liberating alchemy, is associated with the Head Sanctuary of the human temple, and the posterior lobe is associated with the Heart Sanctuary. We could say that Arthur is a philosopher-magician while Molly is a mystic-magician. Together they form an extremely powerful magical team. I have not talked about this before, but this is the time to tell you that for all practical purposes it is impossible to go the Path of Liberating Alchemy alone. To defeat Voldemort there has to be an Order of the Phoenix! According to the teachings of liberation it is the power of the pituitary gland that enables a group of men and women to pool their magic power together to form a group force-field in which the Holy Spirit can dwell. So, ladies, you may be encouraged to hear that in liberating alchemy men and women are absolutely equal, and in fact can't do the work of liberation without each other. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 17:22:43 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:22:43 -0000 Subject: Merlin's Beard! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126543 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > Catlady said: > > According to the Lexicon, Merlin's Famous Wizard card says: "Sometimes known as the Prince of > > Enchanters." I thought he was called that because his magic was so powerful, but I can't find that in the Lexicon. > Catlady > > imamommy: > > This may help support in some way the theory some posters hold that the Potter series draws heavily from Arthurian legend. > Tonks now: Hummm.. I would be so shocked, but even so if we saw Merlin it would be great! Merlin was only half human. He got his magic from his father, and his mother was a nun. So they say. JKR is always referring to him, the Order of Merlin for example. But I would really be surprised if that is who the half blood prince is. I think it is Goddrick Griffindor and DD knows how to contact him. Tonks_op From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 17:50:55 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:50:55 -0000 Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA - Possible and Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "someoneofsomeplace" wrote: > > John: > The problem is, we don't meet this Felix fellow (if he *is* a > fellow) until Chapter 14 or something, and I doubt that we'll be > spending 13 or more chapters at this Spinners End location. Just > substitute *him* for someone else and you've got yourself a good > theory going. > > I, too, feel that Harry will take remedial potions. He'll be in for > some pretty hard work if he wants to get himslef up to scratch in > that time; but maybe he will finally start to take his studies, esp. > potions, seriously? Finwitch: And who could this person be? I have a guess: Nicolas Flamel. Being that alchemy was what began chemistry (and Potions, too, I suppose). I think Nicolas knows Potions well (Elixir of Life being one). Or who-ever was teaching potions to SSnape. Arsenius Jigger perhaps? (the one who wrote the Potions' book) So I have at least two names... but why would either pick up Harry? Somehow I see Nicolas Flamel as a likely character - as ancient as he is... Maybe both Nicolas and Perenelle even come to Hogwarts to teach? Finwitch From stix4141 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 24 18:54:26 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:54:26 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126545 lupinlore: The point is that JKR is trying to sell a particular image of Dumbledore, and it just isn't getting across. stickbook now: Lupinlore's touched on something here. Yes, JKR is trying to sell a particular image of Dumbledore, and it's been remarkably successful. That image is *despite previously notions, Dumbledore is, in fact, fallible*. Is it a coincidence that we are discovering this when Harry discovers it? We've discovered everything else when Harry discovered it, so probably not. Is it a coincidence that we react with anger the same way Harry reacts with anger? We love Sirius and hate Draco the way Harry does (fanfics aside), so probably not. Harry's anger with Dumbledore is born not our of Dumbledore's rather weak explanation at the end of OotP, but out of the fact that Dumbledore is not the omniscient fix-all protector that Harry thought. Nothing about Dumbledore has changed except for Harry's view of him. And isn't that adolescence in nutshell? All of a sudden our parents and teachers aren't as great as they used to be, and it's very upsetting. Anyway, that was my take on it, and there hasn't been anything similar posted lately. stickbook who wouldn't do adolescence again for all the tea in China From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 24 20:05:14 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:05:14 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126546 > lupinlore wrote: > The point is that JKR is trying to sell a particular image of > Dumbledore, and it just isn't getting across. > stickbook replied: > Lupinlore's touched on something here. > > Yes, JKR is trying to sell a particular image of Dumbledore, and it's > been remarkably successful. That image is *despite previously > notions, Dumbledore is, in fact, fallible*. Is it a coincidence that > we are discovering this when Harry discovers it? We've discovered > everything else when Harry discovered it, so probably not. Is it a > coincidence that we react with anger the same way Harry reacts with > anger? We love Sirius and hate Draco the way Harry does (fanfics > aside), so probably not. > Hannah: I see the 'DD is fallible' lesson as separate from the 'highly questionable motives of DD' theory. Yes, fallibility is what JKR wants to show, and she does it. But the problems that I have with DD's character development go beyond that. I'm not talking about 'an old man's mistakes,' I'm talking about a highly intelligent, extremely powerful wizard, who makes very questionable decisions, constantly gets things wrong, and could be considered to be heartlessly manipulating those around him. I'm not sure I agree about discovering it along with Harry. Even when I first read PS, back in 1997 before any of the other books were written, I thought it was strange that this supposedly wonderful wizard had left Harry with his horrible relatives, and that he managed not to notice what Quirrel was (or worse, noticed but did not do anything about it), and that he was duped into going off site for a whole day, while Harry and his friends saved the day single handed. I had my doubts about him in CoS, when he apparently was unable to work out the mystery of the basilisk. And again in PoA, when the whole Sirius Black thing came out. In fact, I've *never* thought that DD fits JKR's image of him. Also, we don't necessarily feel the same way that Harry does about characters. A lot of people (yes, me included) love the character of Snape (as opposed to his behaviour), and a lot of people (not me) love Draco, and an awful lot hate Hagrid and can't stand Sirius. Stickbook continued: > Harry's anger with Dumbledore is born not our of Dumbledore's rather > weak explanation at the end of OotP, but out of the fact that > Dumbledore is not the omniscient fix-all protector that Harry thought. > Nothing about Dumbledore has changed except for Harry's view of him. > And isn't that adolescence in nutshell? All of a sudden our parents and teachers aren't as great as they used to be, and it's very upsetting. Hannah: But it's not just Harry that thinks that. I agree with what you've written with regards to Harry's own personal psyche, and the good point made about adolescence, but the 'great and good' image of DD has been fed us by a lot more people than Harry, from JKR herself, through to Hagrid, Lupin, Ron, Percy, the Weasleys... No, nothing about DD has changed. He's still supposedly this image of goodness and omniscience, but also the man who's been making a right royal mess of things since day 1 (Kneasy wrote a fantastic post on this a while back). I agree that Harry is now seeing him more as I see him. But that doesn't change the discrepancy between JKR's vision of DD, and the character she's actually portraying. Hannah, who wouldn't want to do adolescence again either! From northsouth17 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 20:11:03 2005 From: northsouth17 at yahoo.com (northsouth17) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:11:03 -0000 Subject: Young men/bad decisions - Back to Mommy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126547 > bboyminn: > > Snape made a very big change in alleginace and philosophy, whereas > > Regulus just wanted to go back home to his mommy. > > SSSusan: > *Possibly.* Since we don't know the circustances of Regulus' > decision, it could be just as you described, or it could be he > would've "turned good." Which was really my point -- that because we > don't know, it's fully open to any scenario one wishes, including > extremely positive ones. > Sirius descirbes his brothers defection in less than glowing terms though. It's true that we don't know - and perhaps Sirius did not either, really - but we have no reason to think he didn't, and he retains a contempt for Regualus that does not really hint at a hidden moral spine to Reg. NOrthsouth From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 22:17:08 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:17:08 -0000 Subject: Young men/bad decisions - Back to Mommy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "northsouth17" wrote: > Sirius descirbes his brothers defection in less than glowing terms > though. It's true that we don't know - and perhaps Sirius did not > either, really - but we have no reason to think he didn't, and he > retains a contempt for Regualus that does not really hint at a hidden > moral spine to Reg. GEO: Considering how Sirius hated the majority of his family including his father, mother and possibly his own brother and that he doesn't even trust or like Snape after the man defected to the Order, I really wouldn't count him as a source of unbiased information in regards to ex-Death Eaters turning to the light. From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 03:57:08 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 03:57:08 -0000 Subject: The "choosing evil" difference (was: Snape and Raistlin Majere) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126549 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Pippin: > Benign? No, but I don't really understand the view of those who > think the kids are being traumatized for life. To me it's like > thinking that Charlie Brown ought to have brain damage from all > the times he's fallen on his head after Lucy jerked the football > away from him. Lucy's not benign, but it would be silly to treat > her bullying as attempted murder just because it's so graphically > depicted. So we end up with the problem of how seriously we are supposed to read such things in the Potterverse. For instance, there are those who argue that the Twins shoving Montague into the cabinet was a malicious action resulting in the inexcusable permanent damage to a fellow student, and those who see it as comedy. There's a way out, but it's uncomfortable. It involves judging people by intentions, and when it comes to teachers, *absolutely no regular teacher* (discounting Umbridge, and last-minute Lockhart) has shown the kind of sustained malice towards his students as Snape does. You might argue that it's not really malice, it's just frustration, etc. Fine. I raise against your speculation my speculation that it is indeed, supported as a heuristic by the authorial imprimitur of "sadistic teacher who abuses his power". Even if Neville is, circa OotP, not a snivelling wreck, it's due to the grace of his own character and that of his friends, not the consistent moral cruelty he's received from Snape. "What is moral cruelty? It is not just a matter of hurting someone's feelings. It is deliberate and persistent humiliation, so that the victim can eventually trust neither himself nor anyone else." Of course, we're in a wait-and-see pattern--but I would bet you all right now that we end up getting something like that confirmed for the character. -Nora sits and enjoys the afterburn of the sake From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 25 04:37:26 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 04:37:26 -0000 Subject: Merlin's Beard! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > > Catlady said: > > > According to the Lexicon, > Merlin's Famous Wizard card says: "Sometimes known as the Prince of > > > Enchanters." I thought he was called that because his magic was > so powerful, but I can't find that in the Lexicon. > > Catlady > > > > imamommy: > > > > This may help support in some way the theory some posters hold > that the Potter series draws heavily from Arthurian legend. > > > > Tonks now: > > Hummm.. I would be so shocked, but even so if we saw Merlin it > would be great! Merlin was only half human. He got his magic from > his father, and his mother was a nun. So they say. JKR is always > referring to him, the Order of Merlin for example. But I would > really be surprised if that is who the half blood prince is. I think > it is Goddrick Griffindor and DD knows how to contact him. > > Tonks_op imamommy: Wait, did you mean half human, or half-blood wizard? Did you mean his father was a wizard and his mother was a nun? Disregarded that vow of chastity, eh? Well, if he's a half-blood wizard, and his chocolate frog card says he was the Prince of Enchantment, that's some of the most tangible evidence we've come across, although it's still litlle more than a good guess. Will July 16 never come!?! imamommy From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 25 04:51:28 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 04:51:28 -0000 Subject: Snape, Potions and DADA - Possible and Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126551 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "someoneofsomeplace" > wrote: > > > > John: Snip > > I, too, feel that Harry will take remedial potions. He'll be in for > > some pretty hard work if he wants to get himslef up to scratch in > > that time; but maybe he will finally start to take his studies, > esp. > > potions, seriously? > > Finwitch: > > And who could this person be? I have a guess: Nicolas Flamel. Being > that alchemy was what began chemistry (and Potions, too, I suppose). > I think Nicolas knows Potions well (Elixir of Life being one). > > Or who-ever was teaching potions to SSnape. Arsenius Jigger perhaps? > (the one who wrote the Potions' book) > > So I have at least two names... but why would either pick up Harry? > Somehow I see Nicolas Flamel as a likely character - as ancient as he > is... Maybe both Nicolas and Perenelle even come to Hogwarts to teach? > > Finwitch But aren't the Flamels probably deceased by now? It was, after all, four years ago that they destroyed the philosopher's stone. imamommy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 05:05:37 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:05:37 -0000 Subject: Is Flamel dead yet? Was: Re: Snape, Potions and DADA - Possible and Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126552 Finwitch: And who could this person be? I have a guess: Nicolas Flamel. Being that alchemy was what began chemistry (and Potions, too, I suppose). I think Nicolas knows Potions well (Elixir of Life being one). Imamommy: But aren't the Flamels probably deceased by now? It was, after all, four years ago that they destroyed the philosopher's stone. Alla: I think that it is quite likely that Flamels are not deceased yet. Think about it - when Dumbledore in PS/SS says that Flamel has enough elixir to take care of his affairs , he does not specify the time frame at all. I do think that Flamels may show up in one capacity or another. It also gives JKR some opportunity to kill some characters to whom the readers are not too attached. I speculate that if Flames do show up they won't die from natural causes. I think they will go down fighting Voldemort and his DE. JMO, Alla. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 05:19:24 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:19:24 -0000 Subject: Merlin's Beard! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126553 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > > imamommy: > > Wait, did you mean half human, or half-blood wizard? Did you mean > his father was a wizard and his mother was a nun? Disregarded that vow of chastity, eh? Well, if he's a half-blood wizard, and his chocolate frog card says he was the Prince of Enchantment, that's some of the most tangible evidence we've come across,(Snip) Tonks now: Well I didn't want to tell the whole dirty little story. But I ment half human. We presume that his mother who was a nun was raped by an an incubus (male demon). Encarta Encyclopedia says: "Merlin was conceived when his father, an incubus (male demon) lies with his mother, a nun at Carmarthen in southwestern Wales, while she is asleep." He gets his magical abilities from his father because his father was not human, but a demon. Merlin was baptised as a Christian. Of course we do not know if any of this is true of if he ever really lived, but this is what some of the legions say about him. He was also the mentor to King Arthur. Now Rowlings is getting some ideas from the King Arthur tales. Here is another bit from Encarta: "According to tradition, Merlin arranges for the conception of Arthur when King Uther Pendragon of Britain falls in love with Ygraine, a married woman. Merlin transforms Uther into the likeness of Ygraine's husband, so that he may lie with her. Arthur is then conceived. After Arthur is born, Merlin takes him and gives him to a man named Hector to be raised as a commoner. After Uther dies, Merlin notifies the barons of Britain that God has established a test to determine the successor to the throne. In front of a cathedral has appeared a large stone topped with an anvil, in which a sword is embedded. The rightful king will be able to withdraw the sword. Only Arthur can do so, and he becomes king." So according to this I think that Arthur is a half-blood. His mother could be a commoner and his father the King. But note the sword and the same thing in CS when Harry is the one that can draw the sword of Gryffindor out of the Sorting Hat. I still don't think that Merlin is the half-blood prince. The half- blood prince will have to be a Christ symbol and that leaves Merlin out. And I don't think that she is going to use any more of King Arthur's tale either. The Goblet of Fire and the Holy Grail did have some things in common, however. Tonks_op From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 05:58:26 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:58:26 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126554 Well I see we are doing another round of DD bashings. OK I will jump in again just for old times sake, as DD's loyal supporter. I see DD as a very loving, very caring person. This part of his personality comes through to me. Now I guess you could say that I am just projecting, but that is how I see him. I see him as almost God like, a Saint prehaps. I know you don't all agree with me and that is OK. But I do see the image of DD the way that JKR apparently wants us to see him. As to the end of OP. I see that scene as that of a therapist and angry client. DD is not letting himself get sucked into Harry's anger. DD is staying calm and letting Harry get his emotions out, even by tearing apart DD's office. This is what a therapist would do in this situation and it seems perfectly plausible to me. Also DD is able to control his emotions and Harry has not let learned to. Controlling ones emotions so that those emotions can not be used against you by someone like LV, is not the same as not caring. DD is IMO able to acknowledge his feelings, but not let his feeling overpower him. We see from Harry's situation (being led to the MoM by LV) what can happen when one is not able to control emotions. It is one of the lessons that Snape has learned perhaps a bit too well. A wizard must be in total control of himself at all times if he is going to fight the forces of evil. DD knows this and can do it. But he lets his guard down just a bit and we see his tear. This one tear is a very powerful image if you ask me. DD doesn't have to turn into a blubbering idiot to show us that he cares. I think it is very, very clear that he cares. I think that he even cares for Tom, but does not like what Tom has chosen to become. Tonks_op From elfundeb at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 06:31:25 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:31:25 -0500 Subject: Sirius (WAS: House Elves and Slavery (Nel Question ## 1 & 2) In-Reply-To: References: <80f25c3a05032318092d06be9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80f25c3a05032422315f6c2dd0@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126555 I wrote about: > Sirius' > > general contempt of those he believed to be inferior to himself, > such > > as Pettigrew and, for that matter, his own family. In his own > words, > > "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he > > treats his inferiors, not his equals." > Phoenixgod responded: > I agree with you on the accoultration vs brainwashing arguement, but > I disagree with you about Sirius and Pettigrew. He's had a long time > to do nothing but contemplate how much he hates the little rat. But Sirius had little regard for Pettigrew even when he was made Secret Keeper. Sirius specifically states that he thought it was the perfect plan because he assumed the DEs would not use "a weak, talentless thing" like Pettigrew. IMO, > they were probably much better friends than you give him credit for. > While Peter seemed rather servile in the pensieve memory, to me that > seemed more indicative of JK not understanding male/male friendships > more than anything else. I question why James and Sirius tolerated Pettigrew, since it's hard to see what he brought to the friendship except unflinching adoration. JKR has written James and Sirius as bullies, and perhaps in her view they are magnanimous enough (well, James, anyway) to allow a thankful sycophant to hang around with them. Peter was a marauder, he became an animagus, > his name is on the Marauders map, his voice is one of the chorus that > speaks when the map is used. Guys just don't include a hanger-on in > their plans like that that, while having as much contempt as for the > individual that she is trying to portray between Peter and the > others. for MPP to go to as much trouble as they do to help peter > perform the transformation, and include him in their group and > nickname, they have to have more respect for him than that. In my > time, I have been in both postions, the hanger on, and the core > group, and for peter to be a marauder, Sirus and the rest have to > have respected him more than you and JK seem to think. I believe that it may have been primarily Sirius who had so much contempt for Pettigrew. As for why they went to so much trouble, if the four of them were in the same house, it might have been difficult for them to sneak out at night without Pettigrew's cooperation. (Unlike Neville, who tried to stop the Trio because he thought it was the right thing to do, I can see Pettigrew using the possibility of ratting on them as a means of being included.) Debbie: > > I have a great > deal > > of trouble with his character -- how I see Sirius act in the books > > just doesn't square with what JKR tries to tell us about him > Phoenixgod2000: > I'm curious about what you mean by that. Could you explain further? This is based on my reading of Sirius in the books. I'm well aware that most of the readership does not share my views, but Sirius just doesn't work for me as a character. He seems more like a plot device to me than anything else. My problems with Sirius go back to my first reading of PoA, and the slashing of the Fat Lady. JKR worked a bit too hard, in my view, to portray him as a deranged escaped convict. While I can understand (sort of; I'm not a revengeful person) his mania to get Pettigrew, the attack on the Fat Lady was uncalled for. It's not like the Fat Lady was working for the enemy. (Maybe portraits can't really be hurt, but the Fat Lady reacted as if she could.) In fact, I was so suspicious of Sirius I thought his supposed innocence and desire for Harry to live with him was a trap, which Harry was falling for because of his desperation to learn about his parents. Based on his actions across three books, I find myself at a loss to explain why he rejected his family. I sense that I'm supposed to think well of Sirius for running away from home, and to believe that Sirius' innate principles were such that he recognized the offensiveness of their pureblood ideology, and rejects their classist philosophy. For example, he states, "I hated the whole lot of them; my parents, with their pure-blood mania, convinced that to be a Black made you practically royal . . . my idiot brother - soft enough to believe them." I doubt any further backstory is forthcoming, but if I were writing it, Sirius would be first and foremost rejecting his family (it does seem that his mother was a nasty piece of work), and incidentally rejecting whatever ideology they espoused. This would allow for his inconsistent treatment of house elves, as they were so far in the background (like a good servant) that the inconsistency of treatment didn't even occur to him. They weren't human. Alla asked: > I do wonder why you consider those two statements to be > inconsistent with each other. I read it as him considering ONE > particular House Elf to be servant unworthy of attention or notice, > not the whole class of beings, but that is just my interpretation. > Accordingly Dumbledore's next statement "kind to House Elves in > general" makes perfect sense to me. I mean we did not get a chance > to see it, but I see no logical contradiction within Dumbledore's > words. The key words, in my view, are "as a servant." According to Dumbledore, Sirius categorized Kreacher as a servant, a class "unworthy of notice or attention." To me, this is a classic stereotype of the attitude of the upper class toward the servant class. It has nothing to do with Kreacher as an individual. In fact, Dumbledore uses this statement as a springboard to make a general point about wizards' general mistreatment of house elves and other beings. Thus, I think it's a correct reading to treat it as an example of the kind of classism that Sirius is supposed to have rejected. The Kreacher-specific statements are also at odds with one another. Dumbledore begins his speech by stating that Sirius did not hate Kreacher, but then tries to distinguish his treatment of Kreacher by saying that Sirius "had no love for Kreacher, because Kreacher was a living reminder of the home Sirius had hated." (JKR states on her website that "Sirius loathes Kreacher, the house-elf he has inherited, and treats him with nothing but contempt.") I know JKR called Sirius "unbalanced", but this is not an example of an unbalanced character sending mixed signals; JKR is imparting information through Dumbledore and she still doesn't paint a consistent picture. I also find the following statement from JKR's website amusing: "Sirius is very good at spouting bits of excellent personal philosophy, but he does not always live up to them." Based on what Sirius actually does in the books, I'm not sure he ever tries to treat his inferiors with respect. We have to take Dumbledore's word for it, without any supporting evidence. In fact, not once but twice his contempt for what he considered to be lesser beings (Pettigrew and Kreacher) provided essential information for Voldemort. Debbie who wishes JKR had shown Sirius being kind to a house elf so we wouldn't have to take Dumbledore's word for it From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 25 07:11:21 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:11:21 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > > > > Also DD is able to control his emotions and Harry has not let > learned to. Controlling ones emotions so that those emotions can > not be used against you by someone like LV, is not the same as not > caring. DD is IMO able to acknowledge his feelings, but not let his > feeling overpower him. We see from Harry's situation (being led to > the MoM by LV) what can happen when one is not able to control > emotions. It is one of the lessons that Snape has learned perhaps a > bit too well. A wizard must be in total control of himself at all > times if he is going to fight the forces of evil. DD knows this and > can do it. But he lets his guard down just a bit and we see his > tear. This one tear is a very powerful image if you ask me. DD > doesn't have to turn into a blubbering idiot to show us that he > cares. I think it is very, very clear that he cares. I think that > he even cares for Tom, but does not like what Tom has chosen to > become. > I suppose a lot of it comes down to what you view as goodness. Is a person who controls themselves and thus "floats above" the ordinary fray of humanity good, or simply detached? Does getting involved in the pain and sorrow of life, including the pain of others, make you lose perspective? If Dumbledore did indeed choose not to bribe or threaten the Dursleys because he feels it would be morally wrong, does that make him good? Or does it merely make him selfish and finicky, willing to opine endlessly about right and easy but unwilling to actually soil his hands to bring about a right outcome? Does viewing and treating Harry as a weapon serve a greater good? Or is it a reprehensible "ends justify means" mindset that ultimately leads to damnation? What you, Tonks, see as laudable self-control, many of us see as deplorable coldness. What you see as noble adherence to the good, many see as tacit approval of abuse. I'm not trying to be argumentative, merely to lay out the differences clearly. You use the metaphor of God or a Saint to describe Dumbledore. Fair enough, I suppose. However, neither of those is very clear. People differ widely over what they expect from God and what kind of behavior they regard as saintly. To use a Biblical example in keeping with it being Good Friday, some people are attracted to the Jesus of the Gospel of John who calmly gives a series of pithy lessons from the cross. Others, myself included, are much more in tune with the Jesus of the Gospel of Matthew, who screams "My God, my God, why hast thou deserted me?" (Yes, yes, I know he was quoting the psalms, but still.) Do you prefer the Jesus who calmly prophesies Peter's betrayal, or the one who weeps over his dead friend Lazarus and who drives the money changers from the temple in a fit of righteous rage? Which is only to say, in the end, that if you can buy the Dumbledore JKR is selling, more power to you! However, that does not change the fact that I, and many others, simply cannot. Lupinlore From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 25 07:27:15 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:27:15 -0000 Subject: Merlin's Beard! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > I still don't think that Merlin is the half-blood prince. The half- > blood prince will have to be a Christ symbol and that leaves Merlin > out. And I don't think that she is going to use any more of King > Arthur's tale either. The Goblet of Fire and the Holy Grail did have > some things in common, however. > > Tonks_op imamommy Thanks for the clarification on the legend. Yeccch! Why do you suppose the HBP necessarily needs to be a type and shadow of Christ? I haven't even made up my mind that he needs to be a good guy. I'm still not sure he's not a beverage, as someone suggested. Or a new designer drug:P Can you please offer some support for this claim? imamommy who can usually relate anyone from Simba to Care Bears to half the characters in LOTR back to being a T&S of Christ From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 25 07:40:36 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:40:36 -0000 Subject: Is Flamel dead yet? Was: Re: Snape, Potions and DADA - Possible and Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126558 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > imamommy previously: > But aren't the Flamels probably deceased by now? It was, after all, > four years ago that they destroyed the philosopher's stone. > > > Alla: > > I think that it is quite likely that Flamels are not deceased yet. > Think about it - when Dumbledore in PS/SS says that Flamel has > enough elixir to take care of his affairs , he does not specify the > time frame at all. > > I do think that Flamels may show up in one capacity or another. It > also gives JKR some opportunity to kill some characters to whom the > readers are not too attached. > > I speculate that if Flames do show up they won't die from natural > causes. I think they will go down fighting Voldemort and his DE. > > > JMO, > > Alla. imamommy again: I don't feel attached to them at all. I think if Voldemort killed them, I wouldn't be at all upset because, well, they were on their way already, right? And I don't want to see precious pages devoted to any development of characters before they die, who I thought were dead anyway. The Flamels death wouldn't have a minor impact on me; it would have no emotional impact on me and I think I would be bothered by the distraction. my two knuts, imamommy From northsouth17 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 08:33:48 2005 From: northsouth17 at yahoo.com (northsouth17) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:33:48 -0000 Subject: Sirius and the Blacks (WAS: Young men/bad decisions - Back to Mommy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126559 > GEO: Considering how Sirius hated the majority of his family He liked Andromeda and her family well enough, he seems to have liked his uncle. I don't think Sirius hates his entire family - perhaps his immediate family, of whom he has bad memories of living in the same house, but not his enitre family for the sake of it - if they weren't associated with the Voldemortian ideology, he seems to respect them. SO i think if Reg had turned because of genuine ideology, Sirius might have been more inclined to welcome him into the renegade branch of the family. Northsouth From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 25 09:12:22 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:12:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Bill Message-ID: <20050325091222.92437.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126560 We know very little about Bill except that he's a cool guy with a pony tail and an earring. He used to work in Egypt but now works for the ministry, and he's a member of the Order of the Phoenix. He doesn't like Snape, which is a good sign. I have mentioned that Dumbledore's office is sure to symbolise the pineal gland. This signifies to me that Bill personifies the crown chakra. This is a "flower" with 960 petals which are predominantly violet. In addition it has a sort of subsidiary central whirlpool of gleaming white flushed with gold in its heart. In liberated people this inner whirlpool reverses itself and sticks out the top, resembling a crown. You will often see this crown on statues of the Buddha. It looks like a knot of hair on the crown of the head. Perhaps Bill's ponytail is Jo's clue to his identity. There's not much more I can tell you. The crown chakra is connected very intimately with the pineal gland, where the alchemical wedding takes place. This is the wedding hall where the Holy Spirit performs its miracle of merging three separate forces into one: the spirit, the soul and the personality. What I see for sure is that in book 7 all the Weasleys will be brought to their new life by Harry, but they in turn will help Harry towards the culmination of book 7: the alchemical wedding. Bill will be connected with Dumbledore's office somehow. What happens in reality is that the Holy Spirit enters the sympathetic nervous system via the medulla oblongata. From there it flashes downwards like lighting to the sacral plexus, then up again on the opposite string. It brings the chakras back to life after their rotations had stopped. It then enters the pineal gland and the crown chakra. The new consciousness is born. This is what the Buddha calls the enlightenment, what Jacob Boehme calls the Light-birth of Christ, and is shown in the Bible as the Transfiguration on the Mount and as the descent of the Holy Spirit. It is also called the Baptism of Fire. The now fully qualified alchemist experiences this as an immeasurably joyous light, as a peace that surpasses all understanding and never leaves. It is the purpose of life on earth. Bill Weasley will be the jewel in Harry's crown. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Mar 25 09:30:46 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 04:30:46 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Merlin's Beard! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126561 In a message dated 3/24/2005 11:39:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, imamommy at sbcglobal.net writes: Wait, did you mean half human, or half-blood wizard? Did you mean his father was a wizard and his mother was a nun? Disregarded that vow of chastity, eh? -------------------------- Sherrie here: According to legend, Myrddin (or Merlin) was begotten upon a nun by the Prince of Darkness - thus only half-human. (Though I rather like Mary Stewart's twist on that legend, myself...) The nun was the daughter of one of the local kings in Dyfedd (part of Wales) - thus giving us a half-blood prince. If Harry's going to actually meet Merlin - well, I'm not so sure how that'd go over with me. I suppose it would depend on how she handles it. A portrait? Could live with that. Great Merlin's Ghost? Yeah, that too. But Merlin freed from his crystal cave? Uh - I'd find that a little too much, methinketh. Sherrie "The gods only go with you if you put yourself in their path." - Myrddin Emrys, THE CRYSTAL CAVE [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 12:20:27 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 04:20:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050325122027.11446.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126562 >"Tonks" > Also DD is able to control his emotions and Harry has not let >> learned to. Controlling ones emotions so that those emotions can >> not be used against you by someone like LV, is not the same as >> not caring. DD is IMO able to acknowledge his feelings, but not >> let his feeling overpower him. We see from Harry's situation >> (being led to the MoM by LV) what can happen when one is not able >> to control emotions. > Lupinlore: > I suppose a lot of it comes down to what you view as goodness. Is > a person who controls themselves and thus "floats above" the > ordinary fray of humanity good, or simply detached? Does getting > involved in the pain and sorrow of life, including the pain of > others, make you lose perspective? I believe you are misunderstanding what Tonks said. Harry's strong emotions upon (apparently) learning that Voldemort had Sirius at the DoM and was torturing him overwhelmed all his other faculties. He became consumed with the urge to rescue Sirius immediately and refused to listen to Hermione's very reasonable questions about how such a situation had come about. By going with his feelings over his logic and intellect - both in analyzing whether his vision was plausible and in determining a realistic plan of action - Harry surrendered important points to Voldemort before he ever left Hogwarts. This is the point that Snape makes to Harry in his little urgent sermon about "weak fools" who let Voldemort feed off their emotions. However Snape came to join the DE's, he made it easy for Voldemort to recruit him because he wore his resentments, his desires, his feelings so openly that he didn't realize he was being manipulated until it was too late. (Just for the record, I believe that's how Voldemort got a lot of the DE's: he manipulated their pureblood snobbery until it was transformed into a personal loyalty to him - until, that is, they came to associate doing Voldemort's will as automatically being bad for muggles and muggle-borns. Voldemort has blinded them to the possibility that if they really thought about it, attacking and bringing down other purebloods isn't exactly consistent with what he's espousing, and that tossing them an occasional bone (no graveyard pun intended) in the form of regular episodes of recreational muggle murders doesn't hide the fact that he has other goals. Put it this way: the DE's might have joined because they wanted wizard society cleaned up and the muggleborn/halfblood contingent removed, either entirely or at least beaten down into a servile minority while purebloods took their rightful places at the top of the heap. But I really doubt that the DE's had any problem with the idea of the heap or were looking to really transform society. They haven't twigged yet to the fact that Voldemort wants to transform their society according to his own lights. I think this was what Snape figured out - and what Dumbledore knew all along. Snape put 2+2 together and finally got the wrong sum, and it was this part of what JKR called "his story" that he gave to Dumbledore that caused Dumbledore to believe him.) I thought you made a lot of very good points, Tonks. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 12:26:02 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 04:26:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Flamel dead yet? Was: Re: Snape, Potions and DADA - Possible and Not In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050325122602.49945.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126563 > Alla: > > I think that it is quite likely that Flamels are not deceased > yet. Think about it - when Dumbledore in PS/SS says that Flamel > has enough elixir to take care of his affairs , he does not specify > the time frame at all. No he doesn't but right after that he says his line about death being like going to bed after being the next great adventure to the well-prepared mind (or something, don't have my book). So if the Flamels pop up four years later it would not be very fictionally satisfying at all. And it doesn't take four years+ to "set your affairs in order". Couple of months, max. The Flamels are gone. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 12:30:03 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 04:30:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050325123004.50713.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126564 --- Magda Grantwich wrote: > I think this was what Snape figured out - and what Dumbledore knew > all along. Snape put 2+2 together and finally got the wrong sum, > and it was this part of what JKR called "his story" that he gave to > Dumbledore that caused Dumbledore to believe him.) Oops. I meant, of course, "finally got the RIGHT sum". Carry on. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 25 12:37:17 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:37:17 -0000 Subject: Sirius and the Blacks (WAS: Young men/bad decisions - Back to Mommy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126565 Northsouth: > SO i think if Reg had turned because of genuine ideology, Sirius > might have been more inclined to welcome him into the renegade > branch of the family. SSSusan: And maybe he would have but simply didn't get the chance, is all. Here's *all* we have from Sirius on the matter: 'Was he killed by an Auror?' Harry asked tentatively. 'Oh, no', said Sirius. 'No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely; I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death.' SSSusan again: While we don't know what source Sirius turned to for the information that Regulus panicked and tried to back out, the information came to Sirius after the fact. So it seems clear that Regulus didn't himself contact Sirius after he'd made his decision to leave. Thus, we really can't know what his motivations were. He might just as well have had a true change of heart but never got a chance to express it, no? Siriusly Snapey Susan From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 25 13:28:51 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:28:51 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: <20050325122027.11446.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126566 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > > Lupinlore: > > I suppose a lot of it comes down to what you view as goodness. Is > > a person who controls themselves and thus "floats above" the > > ordinary fray of humanity good, or simply detached? Does getting > > involved in the pain and sorrow of life, including the pain of > > others, make you lose perspective? > > > I believe you are misunderstanding what Tonks said. > > Harry's strong emotions upon (apparently) learning that Voldemort had > Sirius at the DoM and was torturing him overwhelmed all his other > faculties. He became consumed with the urge to rescue Sirius > immediately and refused to listen to Hermione's very reasonable > questions about how such a situation had come about. By going with > his feelings over his logic and intellect - both in analyzing whether > his vision was plausible and in determining a realistic plan of > action - Harry surrendered important points to Voldemort before he > ever left Hogwarts. > Okay. That IS a very good observation. However, it is rather beside the point of Dumbledore and whether or not we can buy him as JKR wants us to. I don't think anyone is disputing the idea that it isn't good to be totally carried away by your emotions. And I don't think anyone is saying that Dumbledore should have matched Harry scream for scream. HOWEVER, being carried away with your emotions is not the same thing as showing a believable amount of sympathy/compassion that would have led us to buy into JKR's characterization. Alla has addressed this point very well. Quote from Alla: I definitely DON'T need Dumbledore to become hysterical during his speech at the end of OOP. I agree it would have been a little wierd, BUT I do need a little bit more of emotion, just a little bit - like for example when Harry looks at Dumbledore he could see , I don't know , shame in his eyes, or something like that. Also as I said earlier - I DEFINITELY could go without Dumbledore "cutting accross" ,when Harry says that "she never loved me". I wanted Dumbledore to listen better and acknowledge that Harry has every right to feel as he feels and dislike his time spent with Dursleys. I also would like Dumbledore to SPELL IT OUT - something like - I would NEVER left you with Dursleys, if there was any chance that you could survive without it and I am very sorry for what you suffered at their hands, but unfortunately I had no other choice. This is just not the issue, where I want to second guess the author and figure out what she was trying to say. I mean, it can be interesting quite often, but on this issue, I want JKR to be very clear and I just don't think that she is. Unless of course Puppetmaster!Dumbledore is what she was trying to present, then to me she succeeded, but it does not look to me that this was her intent, and this is of course IMO only. Now Lupinlore: I must agree 100% with Alla's argument. A hysterical Dumbledore would not have been appropriate. Nobody is asking for one. However, there is a lot of room between hysteria and coldness. There is a lot of room between being carried away by your emotions and suppressing them to the point that, if they exist, they can't be detected. And of course, this is NOT just an issue of emotions. It is also a matter of thoroughly inadequate explanations. Dumbledore's speech left a lot of very important points unanswered -- enough to legitimately think that JKR has not done a very good job of justifying the repeated statements about Dumbledore's goodness to which we've been treated. Lupinlore From inkling108 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 14:59:59 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:59:59 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126567 If I may barge in here -- I think that Dumbledore's apparent restraint in the face of Harry's suffering has its roots in the literary tradition that JKR is working within, which is the classic foundling/orphan who is mistreated or disregarded for most of his childhood only to discover that he has a unique and important destiny to fulfill, at which point he enters into a different world entirely and must meet the challenges of his destiny. The Arthurian Legends and Dickens (especially Great Expectations) are just two examples of this tradition. In fact you can trace it back to Christ, who was dismissed by his neighbors when he stood up to preach in the local synagogue. One of the reasons these stories are so powerful is the extreme contrast between who the protagonist is believed to be, and who he turns out to be. In other words, had Harry been treated well as a child the story would lack one of the archetypal dramas that has made it so popular all over the world. Same is true for the many challenges Harry has faced at Hogwarts. The protagonist must rely upon himself to meet the trials, or else he will not discover the qualities he needs to fulfill his destiny. Dumbledore must hang back or the story will not fulfill that archetype either. The problem is that in Dumbledore JKR has created a character that she wants us to believe is wise and extremely powerful. In fact Dumbledore himself is an archetype along the lines of Merlin and Gandalf, but he is also a literary creation of the modern age. We expect our wise old men to be compassionate and believably human as well as archetypal, and so we expect them to intervene in the hero's sufferings. (Merlin was not subject to these expectations and did all his shady arrangements around Arthur's birth apparently without a qualm). So her job as author is to make all this work together, and she hasn't quite succeeded. But I'm not sure anyone could. To me, the problem lies not with Dumbledore's character but with the role he has been assigned to play, which does not allow for helping Harry more than he has. True, this role does not quite seem to square with his character, as presented by JKR. It's a flaw in the story, but not, IMO, a reason to throw the story in the trash. Inkling From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Mar 25 16:09:26 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:09:26 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: Lupinlore: > You use the metaphor of God or a Saint to describe Dumbledore. > > Which is only to say, in the end, that if you can buy the Dumbledore JKR is selling, more power to you! However, that does not change the fact that I, and many others, simply cannot. Pippin: JKR has a powerful literary precedent for calling Dumbledore good and yet leaving his motives for allowing Harry to suffer the Dursleys in doubt. The Hebrew scripture never explains why the Chosen People had to suffer slavery in Egypt. Generations of commentators have struggled to reconcile the captivity in Egypt with their concept of a benign and all powerful deity. It could be that for JKR, getting people who normally wouldn't recognize a theological issue if it danced naked in front of them wearing a tea-cozy to wonder about such a thing is more to her purpose at this point than providing an answer. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 16:38:47 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:38:47 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126569 Pippin: JKR has a powerful literary precedent for calling Dumbledore good and yet leaving his motives for allowing Harry to suffer the Dursleys in doubt. The Hebrew scripture never explains why the Chosen People had to suffer slavery in Egypt. Generations of commentators have struggled to reconcile the captivity in Egypt with their concept of a benign and all powerful deity. It could be that for JKR, getting people who normally wouldn't recognize a theological issue if it danced naked in front of them wearing a tea-cozy to wonder about such a thing is more to her purpose at this point than providing an answer. Alla: I don't know, Pippin. I am NOT a theological scholar by all means ( last time when I read the commentary was almost ten years ago) , but I read Scripture itself quite a few times and personally I had no doubt why G-d had allowed his Chosen people to suffer slavery. It is again just my impression. I was absolutely sure that G-d was punishing them or us. Now, sure it is not explained expressly why, but just as a general idea that is the one I got. Now, I am Jewish and I believe in G-d, but I don't think that those who follow all laws of Judaism will really consider me a believer. I mainly believe with my heart, that is all, so I don't think my word will count for much. So, going back to Dumbledore. I really don't want to think that the idea here is that he was punishing Harry for the sins of the past generations or something like that. Just my opinion, Alla. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 17:02:12 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:02:12 -0000 Subject: Is Flamel dead yet? In-Reply-To: <20050325122602.49945.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126570 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > And it doesn't take four years+ to "set your affairs in order". > Couple of months, max. The Flamels are gone. > > Magda bboyminn: In weighing in on this in the past, I like to remind people that as you get older your preception of time changes. When I was a kid warm lazy summer days seemed to last forever, now the days are rushing by. To a 10 year-old, a decade is a lifetime, to a 100 year-old a decade is one small faction of a lifetime. To someone who is almost 700 years-old, a decade is like a year to a normal person. So, indeed a 'couple of months, max' is like the blink of an eye to someone so old. I can easily see Flamel and his wife taking five to ten years to set their affairs in order. One could speculate, that this is why JKR made of point of noting that Flamel had a remaining supply of Elixer. Otherwise, why not just agree that Flamel will soon die and leave it at that? Others will react differently, but if handled well, I won't have a problem with Flamel appearing in the remaining books, perhaps I am bias because, since he was first mentioned, that's exactly what I've wanted to happen. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Fri Mar 25 17:56:55 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:56:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius (WAS: House Elves and Slavery (Nel Question ## 1 & 2) In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a05032422315f6c2dd0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126571 First off, I want to thank you elfundeb for your post. I've often felt that I was the only person that didn't trust, or like, Sirius. elfundeb said> > But Sirius had little regard for Pettigrew even when he was made > Secret Keeper. Sirius specifically states that he thought it was the > perfect plan because he assumed the DEs would not use "a weak, > talentless thing" like Pettigrew. I don't think Sirius liked or respected many people, James Potter being the exception. I don't even think he cared that much about Lupin when they were younger, he was just a friend of James' that was fun to hang around with on the full moon. His disregard for Lupin's condition during the pensive scene showed that. Years later he cared because Lupin was his only tie to his glory days. > I question why James and Sirius tolerated Pettigrew, since it's hard > to see what he brought to the friendship except unflinching adoration. > JKR has written James and Sirius as bullies, and perhaps in her view > they are magnanimous enough (well, James, anyway) to allow a thankful > sycophant to hang around with them. My take exactly. What's a star without his fanclub? When you mentioned how you distrusted his offer for Harry to live with him I totally understood. I think it would have been bad for Harry in the long run. We were shown during OotP that Sirius was still reckless and not anywhere near mature. He wouldn't have helped Harry mature, he would have helped him become even more reckless and foolhardy. Casey From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 18:32:25 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:32:25 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126572 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > Lupinlore: > > ...edited... > And of course, this is NOT just an issue of emotions. It is also a > matter of thoroughly inadequate explanations. Dumbledore's speech > left a lot of very important points unanswered -- enough to > legitimately think that JKR has not done a very good job of > justifying the repeated statements about Dumbledore's goodness to > which we've been treated. > > Lupinlore bboyminn: I just finished a cup of coffee so I'm not sure if this post is fueled by good ideas or just caffine. Regardless, here it goes... Oddly, when I started typing this post, I credited the above quote to LupinDore rather than LupinLore, and couldn't help wondering if fate had guided my hand. (just a useless point of trivia) When ever this subject comes up, the first thing that occurs to me is that Dumbledore is 150 years old; he's been a lot of places and seen a lot of things. Considered how many wars have occurred in the last 150 year, then add to that Dumbledore's historical knowledge of war and conflict. In his lifetime, how many self-important self-proclaimed Dark Lords do you think he has seen? How many pompous self-important but marginally effective polititians like Fudge do you think Dumbledore has see? How many schoolyard Draco-ish bullies do you think he has seen? How many trapped-in-the-past, can't-let-go bitter people like Snape do you think Dumbledore has seen? How many 'tragically misunderstood' schoolboys, who alone (at least in their own view) can see and feel life with clarity, do you think Dumbledore has seen? How many people, that he knew personally, do you think Dumbledore has seen die? In general, how many times, over and over again, do you think Dumbledore has witnessed the follies of man? Suffering is part of life; to be alive is to suffer, just ask any Buddhist. I think Dumbledore in all his years of experience with the follies and foibles of man (and yes, it is mostly men) has naturally developed a calm mellow Buddha-like response to life. Yelling and screaming, the wailing and gnashing of teeth, the throwing of breakable objects, by Dumbledore, at this point, serves no purpose, but letting Harry rage and storm does. We see clearly in each book, that Dumbledore understands that Harry must express himself whether by emotion or by retelling a terrible tale. Harry must purge the 'poison' from his system. But as any good councilor knows, when those you council dump their 'poison', it's best that you as councilor do not then pick up that poison and internalize it. So in conclusion (I think the coffee is starting to wear off), I think we are seeing the wisdom of age in Dumbledore and the Buddha-like calm that comes with it. As to Dumbledore's seeming inadequate imcomplete explanations, I think we are seeing two things, one internal to the story and one external. First, the author must limit information, JKR could have to us 'everything' in the first books during the end of year conversation with Harry, but then wouldn't that have ruined the remaining books for us; not much of a mystery if you know the answers going in. The second part is that Dumbledore must be pragmatic, he has a job at hand, a task which must be accomplished, a problem with tremendous consequences the must be dealt with. Part of a Buddha-like calm and wisdom is to know that no matter what happens, you must simply carry on. Life means suffering, life means death, and when they happen, life goes on. A great priest in the meditative tradition was asked by one of his students, "What is it like to be enlightened?". The priest answered, "Before I was enlightened, I chopped wood and carried water, now that I am enlightened, I chop wood and carry water". I fear that Dumbledore has a great deal of very important wood to chop and water to carry, and the best he can do is get on with it. ...then again, it could just be the coffee talking. Steve/bboyminn From xcpublishing at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 19:06:16 2005 From: xcpublishing at yahoo.com (xcpublishing) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:06:16 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126573 phoenixgod2000 writes: >What makes Snape so contempable to me and many other people, while >similar literary characters can be just as dark and bitter and yet >still remain sympathetic and understandable--even in their own way >likeable. I do realize that Snape has his fans but he also has many >detractors. For those of you who've read both series or another >series with a Snape like character, what seperates Snape from them >to make him either more or less likeable and sympathetic? OMG, I guess it had to happen, but I actually disagree with you, phoenix!!! I do agree there are similarities between the two, but I despised Raistlin with every fiber of my being and desperately wanted someone to squish him. (And his annoying brother, but that's another story.) On the other hand, I actually do like Snape, even though I'm hoping he's ESE. I never saw Raistlin having any redeeming qualities. Snape's redeeming qualities pretty much only lie in the fact that (ESE!) Dumbledore seems to like him and I'm still in the mood to give DD the benefit of the doubt. For those that haven't read Dragonlance, your question can also be included with Thomas Covenant from the Lord Foul's Bane series by Stephen Donaldson. I so utterly despised that character that I could barely bring myself to read the whole series and it was only through sheer admiration of his writing (and the amazing world he'd made) that I could get through it all. Until the sixth book when the whining SOB character finally redeemed himself. Finally. Barely. Personally, I think it is the whining factor that makes the characters less likeable. Raistlin was a griping, cantankerous, angry whiner. Thomas Covenant spent so much time whining that I nearly threw the book against a tree several times. Snape has never whined. Not once. I admire that. Nicky Joe From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 25 19:25:04 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:25:04 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Elves and Slavery References: <1111678023.58803.34492.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002201c53170$5a72d360$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 126574 Debbie wrote: >It's interesting how this question focuses only on whether the house >elves have been brainwashed. I think it's overreaching to describe >the house elves as brainwashed, as the current connotations of the >term suggest an intentional process of re-education, whereas the >enslavement of the houe elves goes back centuries. What's really >going on, in my view, is the usual process of culturization, and if it >applies to the house elves, it applies to everyone else, too. >If it is appropriate to state that the house elves have been >brainwashed by wizarding culture to accept their subservient role, >then it would be equally appropriate to assert that Hermione has been >brainwashed by her bleeding-heart liberal muggle culture to assume >that all beings must be free. And equally appropriate to assert that With much snippage, a different perspective which sidesteps the issues of enslavement, acculturation, and brainwashing. I think it's easy to slip into what Kneasy (bless 'im) used to call "Muggle thinking" and approach the house elf question from our own RW human being perspective (and how can we easily do otherwise?) We are used to a world in which we are the only sapient species (though the recent discovery of the Flores Island Hobbits tells us that this wasn't always the case) so in our world (and Potterverse Muggles would share that perspective) all sapient beings have the same (human) nature. We are all naturally cooperative, generous, and freedom-loving. But shifting across to the WW, things are very different. Our own species has three subspecies (not just Muggles like ourselves, but also squibs and wizarding folk). But also the world is inhabited by many other sapient species (who can be expected to have very different natures than ourselves). There are Giants. Close enough to be able to interbreed with humans, as we know (though it's worth wondering whether people like Hagrid and Maxime are sterile in the way that mules and ligers are in nature). Pureblooded Giants don't seem to think at all like us, though we don't actually even know whether the remnant that we've heard described lost their more intelligent members when the species was virtually wiped out. There are Goblins, and we don't know how they think at all. There are Centaurs, and JKR describes them sufficiently well to make it obvious that they have a totally different mindset from humans (when Harry first meets them he has real difficulty understanding what they're on about). There are various others, including merfolk and vampires. And there are house elves. Who also appear to act for the most part according to their natures. We've met some untypical ones (ie Dobby) but most of the others don't think like him. Winky, for example, pretty much lost her sanity when she was "liberated" from "servitude". Kreacher has also pretty much been pushed over the edge. Is the message perhaps that the more humans meddle with house elves, the worse it is for them? Shouldn't we just let them get on with what it's in their nature to do, and not try to alter them? Would the result of Hermione's crusade be a species made up of Kreachers and Winkys? Hermione can be understood for her perspective, but WW-borns _know_ that not all sapients have minds that run on the same tracks as our own. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 25 19:29:55 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:29:55 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126575 Nicky Joe: > Snape has never whined. Not once. I admire that. SSSusan: Hmmmm. I'm thinking about his one, Nicky Joe. Snape has never whined. Is that true? Like you, I am impressed that Snape often manages to swallow the words which likely WANT to come out when DD (or McGonagall) cuts him short ["Innocent until proven guilty, Severus"; "Not today, Mr. Weasley"; "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus"; etc.]. OTOH, what *would* you call Snape's behavior outside the hospital wing at the end of PoA? It may not be *whining* exactly, but I'd certainly call it a hissy fit. Siriusly Snapey Susan From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 20:23:05 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:23:05 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (and a bit about Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126576 Finwitch: I do see Dumbledore as epitome of goodness. He is human - and he does make mistakes, yes-- and he admits it himself. And I do believe he cares for Harry. You know, I have no doubt what-so-ever about Sirius truly caring - that Sirius does love Harry enough to give his life for him. Now- I imagined Sirius going trough some sort of purification in the beyond, and then return as Stubby Boardman (going back in time). Stubby had to live, keeping timeline intact - (although he did become a popular singer) - knowing, but he must not to do anything to prevent the October 31st when Voldemort fell, nothing to get Harry out of Dursleys, nothing to prevent Voldemort's second coming -- (although he could be there to capture the rat, but only if he can watch Harry being tortured and in danger - and do nothing). And get over his childhood with nasty family, and his mental torture in Azkaban. (I do think Sirius was a bit crazy in PoA, spending 12+ years with only dementors and suicidal, depressed people for company is not good for one's sanity... but he WAS trying his best. He did recover and did quite well outside in freedom - locked up in the house of his childhood with Kreacher was bringing it all back again...) And then he must keep the rat alive (so he can be free later) for a year. Knowing what Harry will be going trough and do nothing until after Sirius Black goes trough. Now that - if not what he went trough beyond the veil - would teach him patience, a bit of wisdom and letting go of revenge. *Then* he can go and get Harry. And just about the only thing that separated this reborn and purified SB from Albus Dumbledore - was the ability and decision to take Harry to live with him instead of the Dursleys. He could do that, having at least a Pensieve memory of the wish of Lily and James - as well as Harry's. As for Dumbledore leaving Harry there - I think he honestly believed it was best for Harry and the best way to keep him alive, but I don't agree with him. Yes, Dumbledore had a priority to keep him alive, but... Asked a hypotethical choice - would you rather live one year freely, having fun - or ten in misery, locked up in some dark closet under the stairs... Me, I'd rather take the year of LIVING. I think Sirius would, too -- and so would Harry. What of you? Finwitch From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Mar 25 20:29:50 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:29:50 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > In his lifetime, how many self-important self-proclaimed Dark Lords do > you think he has seen? How many pompous self-important but marginally > effective polititians like Fudge do you think Dumbledore has see? How > many schoolyard Draco-ish bullies do you think he has seen? How many > trapped-in-the-past, can't-let-go bitter people like Snape do you > think Dumbledore has seen? How many 'tragically misunderstood' > schoolboys, who alone (at least in their own view) can see and feel > life with clarity, do you think Dumbledore has seen? How many people, > that he knew personally, do you think Dumbledore has seen die? In > general, how many times, over and over again, do you think Dumbledore > has witnessed the follies of man? > > Suffering is part of life; to be alive is to suffer, just ask any > Buddhist. I think Dumbledore in all his years of experience with the > follies and foibles of man (and yes, it is mostly men) has naturally > developed a calm mellow Buddha-like response to life. Well, I guess my reaction to that would be complicated. To be calm in the face of your own suffering is one thing. However, this can very easily spill over into dismissing or making light of the suffering of others (which many Buddhist teachers warn against as a false but very seductive enlightenment). Compassion after all literally means "to suffer with." I agree that Dumbledore shows calm. But I'm not all sure he shows that other great Buddhist virtue, compassion. Rather his calm seems to take the form of coldness and dismissal of Harry's pain. I would have no quarrel with Dumbledore's calm, were it not for the absence of compassion. > > Yelling and screaming, the wailing and gnashing of teeth, the throwing > of breakable objects, by Dumbledore, at this point, serves no purpose, > but letting Harry rage and storm does. We see clearly in each book, > that Dumbledore understands that Harry must express himself whether by > emotion or by retelling a terrible tale. Harry must purge the 'poison' > from his system. But as any good councilor knows, when those you > council dump their 'poison', it's best that you as councilor do not > then pick up that poison and internalize it. > Once again, I can but refer to Alla's previous post. No one would be impressed by Dumbledore yelling and screaming and throwing things. We WOULD be impressed by a show of compassion and, yes, remorse for the pain his decisions have caused Harry. Calm is one thing, a cold absence of remorse in the face of what his decisions have done to an innocent is quite another. It is one thing to be calm yourself in the face of pain life deals you. It is quite another to fail to show appropriate sympathy and compassion in the face of someone else's pain. You say that much of the calm we see in Dumbledore is 150 years of experience. I could agree with that. However, I, unlike what you seem to be saying, don't see that as a good or admirable thing. (Neither, I might add, does Dumbledore necessarily, else he would not be talking about his "Old man's mistakes," and "The failings of age.") It would appear that in achieving his calm Dumbledore has forgotten the pain of others. Yes, he has seen many Snapes in his life. Does that mean he should not be compassionate for those Snape's taunts injure, and act to restrain Snape to prevent that pain? Should he just say "Life is suffering, suffering is learning." and turn a blind eye? For that matter does his age and experience excuse him for not recognizing the depths of Snape's own wounds, and the fact that in asking Snape to teach Harry Occlumency he was inviting disaster? Does it excuse him for underestimating the pain of Sirius at being confined in a house he hated, thus inviting another disaster? Not very responsible or very admirable. Yes, he has seen much death. Does that mean he should not show compassion in the face of death (although I think he does show sympathy on this point, actually)? Yes, he has seen many bad parents. Does that excuse him for turning a blind eye to Harry's suffering? Life is suffering. But that does not excuse coldness or forgetting the pain of others. Lupinlore From rayheuer3 at aol.com Fri Mar 25 20:59:47 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:59:47 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Flamel dead yet? Message-ID: <8d.23af7a50.2f75d5c3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126578 Steve/bboyminn wrote: >Others will react differently, but if handled well, I won't have a >problem with Flamel appearing in the remaining books, perhaps I am >bias because, since he was first mentioned, that's exactly what I've >wanted to happen. I missed the original post(s) in this thread, and I'm too lazy to look it up, so forgive me if I'm just repeating earlier statements. Ever since it was made clear that Fudge would soon be the ex-MoM, my wife and I have had a continuing argument about this. I insist that Nicholas Flamel would seem the obvious choice for the new Minister of Magic. He has the twin advantages of name recognition and being closely associated with Dumbledore while not being Dumbledore (who certain factions in the Ministry would certainly oppose). My wife, on the other hand, insists that Flamel died shortly after Book 1. There is absolutely no canon on whether he is alive or dead, and if JKR is thinking along the same lines as I am, there is no reason why Flamel could not still be alive. [Wifey has not been interested in discussing the matter since JKR announced that the new MoM would not be Arthur Weasley.] ::snicker:: -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stix4141 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 25 21:21:56 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:21:56 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126579 lupinlore: > Once again, I can but refer to Alla's previous post. No one would > be impressed by Dumbledore yelling and screaming and throwing > things. We WOULD be impressed by a show of compassion and, yes, > remorse for the pain his decisions have caused Harry. Calm is one > thing, a cold absence of remorse in the face of what his decisions > have done to an innocent is quite another. It is one thing to be > calm yourself in the face of pain life deals you. It is quite > another to fail to show appropriate sympathy and compassion in the > face of someone else's pain. stickbook now: Isn't it wonderful how we can all get such different impressions of the same event? Steve read Dumbledore as having a zen-like calm, Lupinlore a cold indifference, and as for me, I read it as plain old guilt. Dumbledore felt guilty for not being able to see a way around his perceived mistakes (ten years with the Dursleys, etc), hence the single tear and the allowance of Harry to smash up his office. Also, I got the impression that Dumbledore had been waiting for and dreading this explosion from Harry for a long time. He tells Harry that he'd been dreading having to explain the whole bit about the prophecy, but what he was really dreading was the big question that Harry would eventually put to him: "If you're so wise and powerful, why haven't you made my life any easier?" More guilt; there's no satisfactory answer. With that in mind, I'd like to put it to Lupinlore and Alla and anyone else who might want to jump in: What (if anything) could Dumbledore have done or said in this scene to convince you that he was telling the truth? stickbook who feels a bit naive taking the scene at such face value From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 21:30:01 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:30:01 -0000 Subject: House Elves & Slavery - plus Goblin thoughts In-Reply-To: <002201c53170$5a72d360$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > Ffred: > > Is the message perhaps that the more humans meddle with house elves, > the worse it is for them? Shouldn't we just let them get on with > what it's in their nature to do, and not try to alter them? Would > the result of Hermione's crusade be a species made up of Kreachers > and Winkys? Hermione can be understood for her perspective, but > WW-borns _know_ that not all sapients have minds that run on the > same tracks as our own. > > Cheers > > Ffred bboyminn: All very excellent points. I think it is very important for us to see the various humanoid creatures as intelligent sentient sapient beings each with there own unique set of character traits. To your short comment about Goblins, I will add that they are obviously shrewd and capable businessmen as well as superb craftmen. In addition, they appear of have a fully developed and sophisticated language which further marks their degree of intelligents. I believe house-elves are equally intelligent, and that their apparent lack of language sophisication is a matter of education, not a lack of ability. While I agree completely with your paragraph which I quoted above, I want to take this opportunity to re-enforce a point I have been making ad nauseam in addressing the House-Elf issue. I agree that more human meddling is not need, and further agree that we should just let the house-elves get on with doing what they do best. I need to add that I don't see 'no problem'; indeed I do see a problem, I do see something that needs to be fixed. But that thing that needs fixing is not the Elves, it's the wizards. Wizards need to enter into their agreement with house-elves with the same sense of honor and commitment that the house-elves bring to the arrangement. Sadly, as humans are inclined to do, we see a weakness or a flaw in the House-Elves attitude and nature, and we exploit it to our advantage. House-elves are unwaveringly loyal and obidient, and that opens the door to abuse, exploitation, disrespect, and mistreatment by wizards. When wizards become as honorable as elves, the problem will be solved. Just saying it again (...and again ...and again...) A few further notes on Goblins- When I think of Goblins vs Wizards, I'm reminded of how native people almost universally viewed Europeans when they first met. The Hawaiian's word for Europeans, now for all non-Hawaiian people, is something like 'Holli' (or close to that). Translated it means 'stupid' or 'stupid ones'. When native Americans (N&S) met Europeans they had the same reaction, these must be the stupidest people on earth. How foolish of them to think that they can bend the forces of nature to their will. Logically, one must live in harmony with nature if they are to endure. There is the tale of native Americans selling Manhattan Island to the Europeans for something like $15 in beads. But to the native Americans, the joke was on the Europeans, how stupid of the them to think that they can own what belongs to God. Humans are the guardians and stewards of the land, only God can truly own it. I think that reflect Goblin's attitudes toward wizards. I think at the core of the many Goblin rebellions, was the Goblin trying to point out to wizard how hopelessly and ridiculously misguided the wizards were in trying to bring anything and everything into their dominion and under their control. A good example is when wizards were setting up the Dept for the Control of Magical Creatures, and were trying to find a way to classify various magic creatures; whether beast, being, spirit, or other. At first, they felt language was the key; if a creature could speak, it was therefore intelligent making it a being. Goblins taught trolls how to speak a few basic sentences and brought them before the committee. Of course, the wizards thought that the Goblins were just trying to be disruptive. But I think the Goblins were trying to point out how stupid it was for wizards to think that it was their job to classify and control other perfectly intelligent beings. I suspect Goblins look down on wizards as being erogant, self-centered, and somewhat simple-minded, and can't imagine what make the humans think that they have a right to control anyone or anything. Again, re: Goblin/wizard relations, and despite many very bloody Goblin rebellions, it has always been the wizards who need to be fixed, not the Goblins, Elves, or Centaurs. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 21:42:56 2005 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:42:56 -0000 Subject: Merlin's Beard! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > I still don't think that Merlin is the half-blood prince. The half- > > blood prince will have to be a Christ symbol > > Why do you suppose the HBP necessarily needs to be a type and shadow > of Christ? I wanted to thank Tonks for pointing that out. And to imamommy, I think that 'symbol' may not mean necessarily 'type and shadow.' The other week I pointed out how John Granger had pointed out before Book 5 came out that the titles of all the books relate to "Harry Potter and the {Christ Symbol by association or metaphor, etc.}" Then we got Phoenix (traditional symbol because it is reborn) and Half-Blood Prince (too obvious), so that seemed to fit right in. I tried to link to the web site where you can see more on his literary theories, but there was a problem with the site after I posted, so I didn't continue the discussion. (It was hogwartsprofessor.com and had some of the essays up, though I recall the above from reading his actual books.) (This symbolism would also seem to preclude Draco as HBP...) A.J. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 22:11:42 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:11:42 -0000 Subject: Half-Blood Prince ( was Merlin's Beard!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > > Why do you suppose the HBP necessarily needs to be a type and shadow of Christ? I haven't even made up my mind that he needs to be a good guy. I'm still not sure he's not a beverage, as someone suggested. Or a new designer drug:P Can you please offer some support for this claim? Tonks now: The half-blood prince could be someone alive now or in the past. It could be a story about that person. But the person that it refers to must be a Christ figure because of the symbolism that runs throughout the HP series. We see so much symbolism of Christ in Harry that it led me to think that Harry was the Christ until the 5th book when he does in fact fall from grace and commits a sin. The real XC (Christ) would not have done that. DD shows signs of the Christ as well with his patronus being a phoenix and with Faulks, etc. So the symbolism of XC is everywhere in the series. John Granger also points this out in his Book "Looking for God in Harry Potter". Sometimes when I think of the WW and the MW, I think of the difference between those in heaven (angels) and those on earth (humans) before the death, resurrection and ascension of XC. Jean Danielou, S.J., in his book "The Angels and Their Mission (According to the Fathers of the Church)" speaks of some of the angels having what might be called a pure-blood philosophy. These angels did not want to be servants to humans whom they felt were below them. In this tradition Satan says "I will not pay homage to Adam" and when Michael was about to force me to pay homage I said "I will not pay homage to someone who is lower than I and who came after me." This was the sin of Satan and his followers. They would serve God, but not humans made in the image of God. I should explain here that there was a hierarchy in heaven with all pure blood angels, but different stations. As far as I can figure out there were 3 levels. When Jesus assended he went above them all to sit at the right hand of God. (As we see later in this post Lucifer had a problem with this idea.) Sometimes the angels (or at least the Archangels) are referred to as Princes. This, I think, is where the concept of Satan being the "Prince of this world" comes from. He is a fallen angel but still a Prince. (I suppose one could speculate as to SS being the half-blood prince if one were looking for the anti-Christ. Perhaps SS's mom (a witch) got a bit too friendly with Satan.) Another tradition follows this same line of thought with "Lucifer refusing to accept the future prospect of the Incarnation of the Word." (Danielou) Lucifer did not thing that God should stoop to such a level. Sounds a bit like Lucius doesn't it? Again Danielou says "The true mystery of the incarnation is the self- abasement of the divine Person of the Word, a little lower than the angels. And the true mystery of the Ascension is the exaltation of human nature above all the worlds of the angels." When Jesus ascended back to heaven the angels that were not with him on earth did not recognize him in his human form. They had to ask repeatedly "who is this?" before they opened the door. They were all shocked that God would bring his son (a half-blood Prince) back into heaven in his *human* body. Jesus is known as the Prince of Peace. And also after the resurrection and ascension, He is known as the King of Heaven. Thus it is Christ who is the half-blood Prince. All of JKR's work points to the Christ and the whole pure-blood clash concept has already been played out in human history when God took human form and became half God/half man in the person of Jesus. What is perplexing is just how this will be played out in the books. Tonks_op From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 22:25:01 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:25:01 -0000 Subject: House Elves & Slavery - plus Goblin thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: I > want to take this opportunity to re-enforce a point I have been making > ad nauseam in addressing the House-Elf issue. > > I agree that more human meddling is not need, and further agree that > we should just let the house-elves get on with doing what they do > best. I need to add that I don't see 'no problem'; indeed I do see a > problem, I do see something that needs to be fixed. But that thing > that needs fixing is not the Elves, it's the wizards. > > Wizards need to enter into their agreement with house-elves with the > same sense of honor and commitment that the house-elves bring to the > arrangement. Sadly, as humans are inclined to do, we see a weakness or > a flaw in the House-Elves attitude and nature, and we exploit it to > our advantage. House-elves are unwaveringly loyal and obidient, and > that opens the door to abuse, exploitation, disrespect, and > mistreatment by wizards. > > When wizards become as honorable as elves, the problem will be solved. > > Just saying it again (...and again ...and again...) a_svirn: What you are saying, Steve, in essence, is that humans must take pains to be generous and fair-minded masters rather than cruel and abusive ones. Either way they should still stay masters and elves should still stay slaves. You may be right IF indeed the flaw is in the elves' nature. It seems highly unlikely though that they have "evolved" to their slavery all by themselves. I for one think that their "nature and attitude" has been ruthlessly tampered with. So I'd say that the "thing that needs fixing" is whatever magic was used by wizards to ensure their "sense of honour and commitment". Incidentally that is why Hermione's attempts to trick elves to freedom are doomed at best and potentially dangerous at worst. Even were she successful in her endeavour she couldn't offer them the real freedom, until the binding charms were lifted. As the things stand now she can only succeed in making them powerful enemies. >I think at the > core of the many Goblin rebellions, was the Goblin trying to point out > to wizard how hopelessly and ridiculously misguided the wizards were > in trying to bring anything and everything into their dominion and > under their control. > a_svirn: What a way to describe a rebellion! Talk about understatements a_svirn From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 22:42:15 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:42:15 -0000 Subject: Sirius (WAS: House Elves and Slavery) In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a05032422315f6c2dd0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, elfundeb wrote: > Debbie: > > Based on his actions across three books, I find myself at a loss to > explain why he rejected his family. > ... (snip) > I doubt any further backstory is forthcoming, but if I > were writing it, Sirius would be first and foremost rejecting his > family (it does seem that his mother was a nasty piece of work), and > incidentally rejecting whatever ideology they espoused. This would > allow for his inconsistent treatment of house elves, as they were so > far in the background (like a good servant) that the inconsistency > of treatment didn't even occur to him. They weren't human. Question: do you find Harry's rejection of Draco on their first two meetings to be personal or ideological? I find it, interestingly enough, to be both. Harry rejects Draco because of the attitudes Draco espouses, which manifest themselves in distinctly unpleasant behavior which reminds Harry of Dudley. With Sirius, it may well have been the same thing. His near family is so unpleasant strongly *because* of the ideology that they espouse. They make nasty comments about other families who are inferior, they have strict standards of decorum and ideas about what the proper place of everyone is in the world, and they don't tolerate variation. Twelve- year old Ron knows what "Mudblood" means, both as in what it stands for--but he also has a definite idea about the approach to the world and other people that those who use it have. It's not a word that a nice, in the deep sense of the word, person uses. Ideology is something that can be expressed as a partial root of an action without it being fully consciously manifested as such. You don't even have to resort to the slipperiness and skeezy Marxism of a Jameson to argue that. > I also find the following statement from JKR's website amusing: > "Sirius is very good at spouting bits of excellent personal > philosophy, but he does not always live up to them." Based on what > Sirius actually does in the books, I'm not sure he ever tries to > treat his inferiors with respect. We have to take Dumbledore's > word for it, without any supporting evidence. In fact, not once > but twice his contempt for what he considered to be lesser beings > (Pettigrew and Kreacher) provided essential information for > Voldemort. Pettigrew is a hole, but if we take your read on the Marauders' dynamic, we end up with a lot of unexplained things. The first is that your take is profoundly cynical, and I'm not sure that's the direction that JKR is going to take their story--it takes a lot of the potential pathos and meaning out of it if Peter was always this complete toady. As well, if Peter was always such a tool, was he a good enough actor yet committed enough to a scary cause to go into the Order? Dumbledore must have approved of him. Sirius' failures fall into the pattern of the personal. He treats Kreacher badly largely because Kreacher is a horrible reminder of the past that he thought he had escaped forever, that he is now chained to as his mental health degenerates. He doesn't think that Snape has any "latent good qualities", but we have an unknown-yet-promised backstory for why he and Snape hate each other so personally. Speculation in that front has proven spectacularly inconclusive. And, ummm, is Sirius alone to blame for the Secret Keeper switch? Because I seem to remember two other people being involved in it as well, and we all know who wore the pants in THAT family. (Can you see Lily meekly acceding to something she isn't completely sure of that involves the safety of herself and her family? I can't either.) -Nora rejoices, for the library is closed and no more work may be done From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 22:57:21 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:57:21 -0000 Subject: Is Flamel dead yet? In-Reply-To: <8d.23af7a50.2f75d5c3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > Steve/bboyminn wrote: > > >Others will react differently, but if handled well, I won't have a > >problem with Flamel appearing in the remaining books, perhaps I am > >bias because, since he was first mentioned, that's exactly what I've > >wanted to happen. > > I missed the original post(s) in this thread, and I'm too lazy to look it > up, so forgive me if I'm just repeating earlier statements. > > Ever since it was made clear that Fudge would soon be the ex-MoM, my wife > and I have had a continuing argument about this. I insist that Nicholas Flamel > would seem the obvious choice for the new Minister of Magic. He has the > twin advantages of name recognition and being closely associated with Dumbledore > while not being Dumbledore (who certain factions in the Ministry would > certainly oppose). My wife, on the other hand, insists that Flamel died shortly > after Book 1. There is absolutely no canon on whether he is alive or dead, > and if JKR is thinking along the same lines as I am, there is no reason why > Flamel could not still be alive. > > [Wifey has not been interested in discussing the matter since JKR announced > that the new MoM would not be Arthur Weasley.] ::snicker:: > > -- Ray > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] a_svirn: I guess, he may still be alive There is a small drawback, however. NF is French, not British. From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 23:02:19 2005 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:02:19 -0000 Subject: Half-Blood Prince ( was Merlin's Beard!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > The half-blood prince could be someone alive now or in the past. It > could be a story about that person. But the person that it refers > to must be a Christ figure because of the symbolism that runs > throughout the HP series. We see so much symbolism of Christ in > Harry that it led me to think that Harry was the Christ until the > 5th book when he does in fact fall from grace and commits a sin. > The real XC (Christ) would not have done that. DD shows signs of > the Christ as well with his patronus being a phoenix and with > Faulks, etc. So the symbolism of XC is everywhere in the series. > John Granger also points this out in his Book "Looking for God in > Harry Potter". Hey, you read that book! Did you read his earlier book, _The hidden key to Harry Potter_ from a few years ago? (It is quite interesting, and has useful literary background information.) There he considers Harry not as the Christ figure, but as Everyman. You're right, there is lots of symbolism in the septology. JG sees DD as Pater figure, Salazaar Slytherin/LV/etc. as Satan figures, and Harry as Everyman who must seek the right choices. Something to ponder... A.J. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 23:07:19 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:07:19 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126587 McGuffin- Definition: in film, a plot device that has no specific meaning or purpose other than to advance the story; any situation that motivates the action of a film either artificially or substantively; also written MacGuffin Etymology: Alfred Hitchcock's term, based on a story where this device was used in a story set on a Scottish train I'm curious to what extent previous book titles limit the nature of the Half-Blood Prince. In previous books, the title element (Harry Potter and '_insert element here_') has for the most part been the McGuffin in the story. It is not necessarily relavant in and of itself, but it, the 'title element', has been the thing, the excuse, that carries the story forward while the truer and deeper elements play out in that framework. Philosopher's Stone Chamber of Secrets Prisoner of Azkavan Goblet of Fire Order of the Phoenix Half-Blood Prince In each case, the 'title element' is the plot framework, but, in the end, is not really a key story element in and of itself. The Stone drove the plot, but in the end was destroyed. The Chamber now lays long forgotten. The Sirius-the Prisoner drove the story, but the thing of value in the end was Sirius-the Godfather. The Goblet of Fire symbolizes the Tri-Wizards Tournement which made up the plot but neither the Tournement or the Cup have any lasting or on-going significants. The Order perhaps should have been 'HP and the Cutting Quill' or 'HP and the Toad Witch' as the McGuffin seemed to be more Umbridge than the Order itself. Now the 'Half-Blood Prince'; if this McGuffin theme is carried through, then the HBP has to be the vehicle that carries the story forward, and provides the framework for more important themes to play out. If the HBP is a historical figure such as Merlin, Gryffindor, Salazar, or other, I don't see how the on-going framework of the story can be woven around that. Unless somehow the legend/tale/story of the HBP can create this framework. I take that as a stretch though. The Legend of the Chamber of Secrets, helped find the real Chamber, the true key, but I don't see how the legend of Merlin or Gryffindor can lead to anything directly related and tangible by the end of the story. So, I suspect that the HBP must be a real-time figure, that is, a living person. It's easy to see Harry or Tom/Voldemort in that role, both half-blood, both significant characters, both with yet untold backstories, both with yet unfulfilled destinies, but JKR has already ruled them out. Can we speculate whether the HBP will be antagonist(bad guy), protagonist(good guy), or neutral? Of course, we CAN specualate, but can we find any foundation for that speculation? One of the most likely candidates is the new DADA teacher, or if Snape teaches DADA, then the new Potions teacher. And how do Felix (what's his name), and the Lion-Man fit into the picture? If we really want to dig deep, could Theodore Nott or Blaise Zabinin be our McGuffin? As long as we are speculating, it the 'Prince' most likely to be symbolic or true European Royalty? All, I've done is ask a big question and added very little, but I'm curious how this HBP=McGuffin idea alters the possiblities for the HBP, and am open to any speculation others might like to add. For what it's worth. Steve/bboyminn From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 23:52:10 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:52:10 -0000 Subject: Is Flamel dead yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126588 bboyminn wrote: In weighing in on this in the past, I like to remind people that as you get older your preception of time changes. When I was a kid warm lazy summer days seemed to last forever, now the days are rushing by. To a 10 year-old, a decade is a lifetime, to a 100 year-old a decade is one small faction of a lifetime. To someone who is almost 700 years-old, a decade is like a year to a normal person. So, indeed a 'couple of months, max' is like the blink of an eye to someone so old. I can easily see Flamel and his wife taking five to ten years to set their affairs in order. One could speculate, that this is why JKR made of point of noting that Flamel had a remaining supply of Elixer. Otherwise, why not just agree that Flamel will soon die and leave it at that? Others will react differently, but if handled well, I won't have a problem with Flamel appearing in the remaining books, perhaps I am bias because, since he was first mentioned, that's exactly what I've wanted to happen. vmonte responds: I agree. He is definitely still alive. Besides, I keep thinking that the connection between Dumbledore and Flamel needs further explanation. There are some key pieces of information missing in their backstory. If Flamel is dead, my bet is that the brain that attacked Ron belongs to Flamel. What if Ron begins to have memories that are not his? Ron is also obsessed with the fact that he has no money. Will he try to make another Philosopher's Stone? Will the story end where it began? Vivian From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat Mar 26 00:03:14 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:03:14 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Flamel dead yet? Message-ID: <19d.3065af03.2f7600c2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126589 a_svirn: >I guess, he may still be alive? There is a small drawback, however. >NF is French, not British. Ray: The historical Flamel is French, yes. (A 14th Century French Alchemist who was rumored to have discovered the Philosopher's Stone and the secret to eternal life). But is there canon on Dumbledore's old friend? -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 00:14:14 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:14:14 -0000 Subject: Is Flamel dead yet? In-Reply-To: <19d.3065af03.2f7600c2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > > a_svirn: > > >I guess, he may still be alive??? There is a small drawback, however. > >NF is French, not British. > > > Ray: > > The historical Flamel is French, yes. (A 14th Century French Alchemist > who was rumored to have discovered the Philosopher's Stone and the secret to > eternal life). But is there canon on Dumbledore's old friend? > > -- Ray > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] a_svirn: I see no reason why he shouldn't be French. I think that DD is a great believer in the international friendship. a_svirn From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 26 01:10:51 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 01:10:51 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126591 > bboyminn wrote: > Suffering is part of life; to be alive is to suffer, just ask any > Buddhist. I think Dumbledore in all his years of experience with the > follies and foibles of man (and yes, it is mostly men) has naturally > developed a calm mellow Buddha-like response to life. > > Yelling and screaming, the wailing and gnashing of teeth, the throwing > of breakable objects, by Dumbledore, at this point, serves no purpose, > but letting Harry rage and storm does. We see clearly in each book, > that Dumbledore understands that Harry must express himself whether by > emotion or by retelling a terrible tale. Harry must purge the 'poison' > from his system. But as any good councilor knows, when those you > council dump their 'poison', it's best that you as councilor do not > then pick up that poison and internalize it. Hannah: I agree with you that DD shouting and becoming hysterical would not be in character or appropriate. I'm happy to accept that his attitude is of zen calm, or that of a good counsellor. My problems with the portrayal of DD go way beyond this scene at the end of OotP. It isn't so much his attitude that bothers me, it's his actions, and what he has (and hasn't) to say about them. This was meant to be the speech that told us everything. They teased with that line for months before the book came out. After DD's behaviour in OotP, we wanted an explanation. What we got was a big let down. It was completely inadequate, and it didn't tell us anything we didn't already know/ couldn't have easily guessed. Even the prophecy bit was no big shock (unless you count that of JKR having used such a suspect plot device). So Harry needed to live with Petunia for his mother's blood protection. Wow! Revelation... except he already told Harry that in book one. But it still didn't explain why the Dursleys were apparently given free rein to treat Harry as they pleased for ten years, while the great and marvellous DD did nothing to intervene. In fact, the only new bits of information we got in this speech only served to make me more uneasy about DD's motives, rather than less so. First there's the line about Harry not being a 'pampered little prince.' That raises the extremely uncomfortable idea that DD deliberately placed a baby in a family where he knew he would be mistreated/ turned a blind eye when mistreatment occured, because he felt that would cause Harry to develop into someone that would better suit DD's plan. Secondly there's his 'I have watched you more closely than you have known.' This further suggests that DD knew what was going on with the Dursleys, yet still did nothing to stop it. He never claims to have done anything about the situation, and neither does he explain why he couldn't/ why he didn't know if that was the case. And then there's all the other DD disasters. The incomprehensible recruitment decisions. The failure to solve problems at his school that three eleven/twelve years managed. His treatment of Sirius. His failure to notice/ decision to ignore Quirrel!Mort when Snape knew full well what was going on. My problems with the portrayal of DD go beyond that single scene in OotP, though nothing in that speech did anything to ease them. Hannah From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 13:45:28 2005 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:45:28 -0000 Subject: Cockroach cluster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126592 Potioncat wrote: > BTW, how common are cockroaches in England? I think of them as > warm climate pests. Cockroaches are not a warm climate pest - they are pests everywhere, lol. Apartment complexes are riddled with them as are loads of restaurants. They are hard to keep at bay when you put huge amounts of trash anywhere. Similar to rats. sherry From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 26 03:01:15 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (elady25) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 03:01:15 -0000 Subject: Christian references (Was Re: Half-Blood Prince) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > imamommy: > > > > Why do you suppose the HBP necessarily needs to be a type and > shadow of Christ? > > Tonks now: > > The half-blood prince could be someone alive now or in the past. It could be a story about that person. But the person that it refers > to must be a Christ figure because of the symbolism that runs > throughout the HP series. We see so much symbolism of Christ in > Harry that it led me to think that Harry was the Christ until the > 5th book when he does in fact fall from grace and commits a sin. imamommy: However, many scriptural and fictional characters are Christ symbols wtihout being perfect as he was. The point is that they function in a way to remind us of Christ. One example is King David, who is a type and shadow of Christ in some stories, but becomes a pretty good example of what pride and lust can drive us to in others. > > Sometimes when I think of the WW and the MW, I think of the > difference between those in heaven (angels) and those on earth > (humans) before the death, resurrection and ascension of XC. Jean > Danielou, S.J., in his book "The Angels and Their Mission (According > to the Fathers of the Church)" speaks of some of the angels having > what might be called a pure-blood philosophy. These angels did not > want to be servants to humans whom they felt were below them. In > this tradition Satan says "I will not pay homage to Adam" and when > Michael was about to force me to pay homage I said "I will not pay > homage to someone who is lower than I and who came after me." > This was the sin of Satan and his followers. They would serve God, > but not humans made in the image of God. > > I should explain here that there was a hierarchy in heaven with all > pure blood angels, but different stations. As far as I can figure > out there were 3 levels. When Jesus assended he went above them all > to sit at the right hand of God. (As we see later in this post > Lucifer had a problem with this idea.) imamommy: This is a bit OT, but I have a different understanding of what happened in Heaven. According to the doctrines of my preferred religion, we existed as spirit children in our Heavenly Father's prescence. Christ, or Jehovah (of the OT) was the firstborn of these children. Satan was another. At some point there was a great council held, and Father presented his plan of happiness: that we would come to earth to gain mortal bodies, and be tested and tried to see if we would be obedient to him. We would have a veil across our minds so that we could not remember our premortal life. We would have free agency to choose good or evil. Father knew he would need a Savior designated, so that if man fell the Savior could pay the price for our physical and spiritual death. Then if we repented in the name of the Savior, we could return to Father's prescence. Lucifer (Satan) had another plan. He thought we sould come to earth and be constrained to only do the will of God, and he wanted all the glory to be given to him. Jehovah accepted the mission to be the Savior and give the glory to Father. Two-thirds of us chose to follow Father's plan and gain a mortal life; one-third followed Lucifer when he was cast down, and became his minions, nver to recieve a mortal body and therefore a chance at exaltation. Also, Micheal and Jehovah were sent to form the earth. The spirit that was Micheal became Adam in the garden. So I vary somewhat in theology from what you regard as obvious, and I don't think there was any class distinction among angels; rather I believe that angels are either spirits who have not yet come to earth, or those who have already died. > When Jesus ascended back to heaven the angels that were not with him > on earth did not recognize him in his human form. They had to ask > repeatedly "who is this?" before they opened the door. They were > all shocked that God would bring his son (a half-blood Prince) back > into heaven in his *human* body. Jesus is known as the Prince of > Peace. And also after the resurrection and ascension, He is known > as the King of Heaven. imamommy: I don't know if you are going to accept this, but there is a scriptural reference in my religion that says "This is my work and my glory: to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (We use other texts in addition to the Bible) I would not think the angels were astounded that he was ascending, but I would venture that they were perhaps testing his knowledge before he returned to Father's prescence. (I'm not sure of the reference you are citing.) > > Thus it is Christ who is the half-blood Prince. All of JKR's work > points to the Christ and the whole pure-blood clash concept has > already been played out in human history when God took human form > and became half God/half man in the person of Jesus. What is > perplexing is just how this will be played out in the books. > > Tonks_op Tonks, thanks for making your case. I'm not saying it can't be. I'm just saying it's not obvious in my mind that it has to be. Granted, JKR's religious background may be more in keeping with yours, but I've been amazed at how many time things have jumped out at me as particular to my faith (the veil between this world and the next, for example). And I would think to someone without a Christian background at all, they would not be as quick to accept the theory. There is a lot of Christian symbolism, but whether intentional or not I cannot say. As I've said before, I think the best stories touch a wide audience because they testify of Truth, real truth, that touches our spirits no matter who we are. And that's why we all love HP. imamommy From lhtaber at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 00:47:40 2005 From: lhtaber at yahoo.com (Larry) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:47:40 -0000 Subject: The Lovegoods at the World Cup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126594 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > > I believe that Luna is going to play a major role in the HBP. > Her family name is first mentioned in Goblet of Fire as > attending the World Cup. > > "No, the Lovegoods have been there for a week already and the > Fawcetts couldn't get tickets," said Mr. Diggory. > GOF US ed, pg. 73) > > I was curious why the name was mentioned in Goblet of Fire, > when Luna was not formally introduced until OOP. After > rereading Chapters 8 and 9 of GOF, I realized that there > were at least two purposes of introducing the Lovegood > name in GOF. > > First, it establishes that Luna and her dad are interested > enough in Quidditch to be at the World Cup a week early. > This established Luna's fascination with Quidditch in OOP. > It also explains why she would go so far as to make funny > and outrageous hats, which may or may not be used later. > I agree that Luna is going to be important somehow in books 6&7, I'm just not sure how. If she isn't going to be involved in the future, JKR sure did spend a lot of time introducing and developing her for just one book. When I read the passage quoted above, I thought back to Mr. Weasley's comment about the wizards with the cheaper tickets having to arrive weeks early and interpreted that as the reason why the Lovegoods arrived early. Although, I also thought that with Luna's father being the editor of a large magazine they weren't exactly poor, so I would think they would have gotten better tickets. Unless since they are not exactly popular with the Ministry, they couldn't get any better tickets (esp since it is mentioned the Fawcetts could't even get tickets). Larry From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 07:40:57 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:40:57 -0000 Subject: Snape the Arch-enemy (was DD's Dilemma) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126595 Lupinlore says: > snip> >> I don't mean that Snape is LITERALLY Harry's arch-enemy, but rather that he symbolizes a much greater danger because of the psychological trap he embodies. I don't see any danger of Harry ever turning into another Voldemort. I think turning into another Snape is a more realistic possibility. That won't happen, I'm sure, but I think we may see Harry teetering on that precipice from time to time in HBP. And that will represent a more complicated challenge for Harry's friends than any simple resentment toward Dumbledore or hatred for Snape, no matter how powerful those emotions might be.>> I think you have something here. Harry already can be rather sarcastic and morose and he certainly doesn't tend to confide in anyone. I think being alone so much and not being able to count on any "wise" adult assistance all his life, not from the Dursleys, DD, or any other adult we've met so far except maybe Lupin, has made him what he is. Mostly others have been either unreliable or absent and/or out of touch. Harry has just gotten used to dealing with troubles on his own. Even at school with the DA, he's the one who calls the shots. It would be enough to make anyone a grump. He didn't even tell Ron or Hermione about Umbridge's detentions, till they found out by chance. I'm hoping that OOP will end this phase of Harry's personality. I'd like to see him stew for a while over the four weeks he's at the Dursleys' for the summer. He does need to deal with his grief over Sirius and his knowledge now about the prophecy. This will take some time alone I believe. Then I'd like to see DD step in finally and become more of a mentor for him. No more of this leaving him alone all year followed by a "nice" chat and that's it. Bonnie From sourcherrymagic at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 09:01:48 2005 From: sourcherrymagic at yahoo.com (Stray) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:01:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Veritaserum and Imperius or memory charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050325090148.89834.qmail@web51702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126596 I was just wondering; if someone is under the Imperus that instructs him to tell lies about something and then is administered Veritaserum, which one is stronger? Alternative: what if the Imperius instructs the one to believe that the lies are the truth? And finally: what if there is no Imperius, instead a memory charm that makes the one forget. Is Veritaserum strong enough to call on the memories from the person's subconscious? ST From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Fri Mar 25 09:54:36 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:54:36 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126597 Lupinlore: > True, I suppose, but nevertheless rather beside the point. The > point is that JKR is trying to sell a particular image of > Dumbledore, and it just isn't getting across. If he is > indeed "compassionate/sympathetic" then we need to see much greater > evidence of that than we have received to this point. John: I suppose it's with some hesitation that I limber up for another round, but oh well; going into bat for DD truly is one of my chief delights This statement about JKR's image of DD not getting across as intended is, of course, just the opinion of you and many others. I would venture to say that there are also many, like me, who *have* bought the image. Perhaps we just have different, but by no means better or worse, ideals of goodness and compassion and so forth? Lupinlore: > You say that > JKR can't remold his character just to please readers. I suppose > that is true. However, if sympathy/compassion ARE part of his > character presumably they can be revealed in a relatively clear > fashion. At this time, to many of us, postulating a cold and > manipulative Dumbledore simply fits the evidence better than a > sympathetic/compassionate Dumbledore who for some reason behaves in > bizarre ways not very consistent with sympathy or compassion. John: Well, when I said "character" I was referring specifically to the public front/fa?ade projected by DD (my fault there). Lupinlore: > > > > I really am curious what evidence you see, John, for Dumbledore > having any remorse for Harry's suffering? I'm not trying to be a > smart-a**, I'm really curious. I grant that he seems sorry for his > mistakes of Harry's fifth year, but I see no evidence at all that he > has any remorse for the pain his decisions have inflicted on Harry > over the last fifteen years. And absence evidence of such sorrow, and a much better explanation of his decisions, then I and others simply don't see him the way JKR wishes us to. John: Well, I'll assume for the purposes of this response that DD *ought to have* shown remorse for Harry's suffering. I'm by no means that way inclined *at present*, but what the heck I concede that there's no direct, *concrete* evidence of this (that I can directly recall) but, frankly, I don't really need any. It seems to follow logically that if DD can feel remorse for his actions in OOTP, he can, and does, also feel remorse for his decision 15 years earlier. That issue was, however, only very briefly touched upon at the end of OOTP; the main issue at hand was the fiasco that had just occurred at the DoM. DD, in cutting across Harry, was merely defending Petunia for having accepted the burden foisted upon her. If you need it spelled out clearly for you that DD feels true remorse and sympathy; or that he's really-sorry-but-had-no-choice- but-to-leave-Harry-at-the-Dursleys, well that's entirely reasonable. (Perhaps we *will* get that type of explanation at some stage). But I'm perfectly comfortable with JKR's portrayal of DD's character and supposed goodness, without "evidence", thank you very much, and that's that. John. From angelicfront5 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 25 18:25:17 2005 From: angelicfront5 at yahoo.com (Lauren Thibeault) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:25:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Founders in DD's Office In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050325182517.36485.qmail@web14926.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126598 I just had a thought when rereading Order of the Phoenix. If there is a picture of all the Headmasters in DD's office wouldn't there be pictures of the founders as well? If so this could be how the Godric Gryffindor might be "spoken to" in HBP. Lauren From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 02:31:19 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:31:19 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126599 Steve/bboyminn- > > So, I suspect that the HBP must be a real-time figure, that is, > a living person. It's easy to see Harry or Tom/Voldemort in that > role, both half-blood, both significant characters, both with yet > untold backstories, both with yet unfulfilled destinies, but JKR > has already ruled them out. > > Chys: The word 'prince' makes me think that it's someone younger, though I know the word has nothing to do with age, but it's just an American thing I grew up with. Prince is below King, and King should be older, but that's just a stereotype from storybooks. But perhaps she did this to make us think it's one of the students, rather than an adult? Prince seems to define male, or else wouldn't it be mentioned as Princess or some other form of title defining female? While I don't give very much to the possibility that it's blood royalty it can't be ruled out, but I think it could be a simple title that someone has earned, out of his previous actions or respect given to him for his past deeds. There are many students that are half-blooded, and I don't think it's any of the established full bloods. That just wouldn't be right, unless there's some kind of scandal involved in their heritage that becomes a plot device for the next book. I think of one student in the books which this could be, but that's already been discussed here indepth. Popular ideas: I've decided it's not Hagrid- he's half giant, not half-blooded. Though he could potentially be of royal blood in giant terms, we learned in OoTP that that is a wavering right- and royalty amongst giants is a fickle thing, to be changed daily if need be. I don't think it's Neville, it's been established many times in the books that he's full-blooded wizard, regardless of the fact he's not that 'magical'. I don't think it's Ron, or any of the Weasleys. They seem to have alternative roles to play. Snape? No, I don't think it's him because he seems to be a full- blooded, and he's in the DE. New teacher? Well we'll only have to wait and see, won't we? It does seem to be a trend for JKR to invent a new character to influence the flow of the next book, doesn't it? Peter? I hope not, personally I dislike him for his weakness and I can't see him being a major plot device being as weak as he is, without somehow hurting Harry in some way, again. If that's just a repeat of book 4, then I don't personally want to see it. Godric Gryffindor/Salazar Slytherin? I have no idea. Perhaps, but how would that further the plot unless it has something to do with COS and something from the past conflicts or involving Hogwarts in some way? I can't see how it would be an important life-altering plot device unless it has to do with Harry's magic and his developing occlumency/eye magic he sees to be focusing on, which he inherited either from his mother, Voldemort, or both. Will the pensieve show up again and more adventuring in the chamber be essential to the plot? I'd like to see what the small Mirror would have to do with the next book, and an induction into the order since everything is out in the open and it's obvious Harry is a part of everything. DD mentioned he didn't want to notice that Harry was growing up, and so maybe now that he's seen what he's capable of without proper guidance, he's going to keep him under his wing a little tighter, to better prepare him and keep him safe? Making him a part of everything in the order might just keep him occupied enough, and better prepared for what's to come, as well as allowing everyone to keep a better eye on him. I'm not sure, just speculation. Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 03:21:53 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 03:21:53 -0000 Subject: Muggle Money Exchange Rate? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126600 Ok, so what is it, does anyone have any past discussion references they could send me to tell me exactly what the exchange rate is between Muggle and Wizarding money? Or do we know the knut to dollar rate? I think JKR said there isn't one, but that's bull, even if that's what she intended. There has to be one since people can exchange muggle money for Wizarding money - Hermione's parents did this themselves. Otherwise you'd change a one dollar bill or a $10 for 50 galleons, and that ain't right if the goblins don't know the difference. Hagrid payed an owl 5 knuts in book 1, Hermione paid an owl a couple knuts sometime later, a wand was something like 7 galleons right? How much is a broom? So what is it? *very curious* Chys From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 03:52:50 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 03:52:50 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126601 Lupinlore wrote: > I really am curious what evidence you see, John, for Dumbledore having any remorse for Harry's suffering? I'm not trying to be a smart-a**, I'm really curious. I grant that he seems sorry for his mistakes of Harry's fifth year, but I see no evidence at all that he has any remorse for the pain his decisions have inflicted on Harry over the last fifteen years. And absence evidence of such sorrow, and a much better explanation of his decisions, then I and others simply don't see him the way JKR wishes us to. Carol responds: Forgive me, Lupinlore, but I really wish you wouldn't assume that your views coincide with those of the group or even most of its members. We really can't know what others think, can we? You're opinions and you're entitled to them, but please treat them as just that--your opinions. That aside, can you show me any evidence that Harry has suffered long-term damage from being left with the Dursleys, or from any other decisions of Dumbledore's? I realize that Dumbledore is capable of error (I would hope so--it's a human trait), for example in not deducing sooner that Crouch!Moody was a DE working for Voldemort and that his goal was to kill Harry. But where is "the pain [DD] has inflicted on Harry"? Harry hardly ever thinks about the Dursleys when he's at Hogwarts. He's not preoccupied with his "suffering" or losing sleep over it. Harry is, as DD pointed out in OoP, as normal a boy as his circumstances have permitted, quite possibly more normal than he would have been as a pampered prince. I'm at a loss as to what you want Dumbledore to apologize *for,* and I'm quite sure that Harry would be astounded if he did any such thing. Carol, who is a bit disconcerted by this new format and hopes that the List Elves can do something about the jumbled mess on the home page as it appears in Netscape 7.2 From nrenka at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 04:13:32 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 04:13:32 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: >> Lupinlore wrote: >> I really am curious what evidence you see, John, for >> Dumbledore having any remorse for Harry's suffering? I'm not >> trying to be a smart-a**, I'm really curious. I grant that he >> seems sorry for his mistakes of Harry's fifth year, but I see no >> evidence at all that he has any remorse for the pain his decisions >> have inflicted on Harry over the last fifteen years. And absence >> evidence of such sorrow, and a much better explanation of his >> decisions, then I and others simply don't see him the way JKR >> wishes us to. > > Carol responds: > Forgive me, Lupinlore, but I really wish you wouldn't assume that > your views coincide with those of the group or even most of its > members. We really can't know what others think, can we? You're > opinions and you're entitled to them, but please treat them as just > that--your opinions. If one were to have read the other notes in this and various other threads, I believe that Lupinlore was using 'others' to refer to other people that he had spoken with and discussed these issues with who were not necessarily members of this group. Some people here do agree with him. The first person "I see no evidence" is also a statement of personal intent, as I understand it. :) > That aside, can you show me any evidence that Harry has suffered > long-term damage from being left with the Dursleys, or from any > other decisions of Dumbledore's? This comes up every few months, but I thought I'd offer my perspective upon it. I'd say the most important thing in the plot of the series is that Harry has a very real and tangible reluctance to go to adults for help, and this is a result of adults always having been unreliable in his life. He doesn't tell Dumbledore what he's thinking and of his odd experiences in CoS; he keeps mum about the quill in OotP out of a desire to protect McGonagall. That kind of intense independence is something that Harry takes to an extent which is distinctly unhealthy (especially in the case of the quill). There's no denying Harry's bitterness when he states about Petunia that "She never loved me!". He's reluctant to engage with the Weasleys, who are happy to try to be surrogate parents. Harry is reluctant to let anyone know about his scar pains in GoF, but does open up about that to Sirius, indicating the rare position of trust that Sirius holds for him. Harry's inwardness can be strength, but it's also a weakness, and it seems generated in part by the loveless home of the Dursleys. He is lucky to have the support of his friends as much as he does, and he is distinctly less functional when his support net is decreased (when Ron is not talking to him). That points to someone who really must have that support, not someone to whom it is really just the icing on the cake. > I'm at a loss as to what you want Dumbledore to apologize *for,* > and I'm quite sure that Harry would be astounded if he did any such > thing. This is a different tack to take on it, but I think Dumbledore owes Harry an apology (and admitted as such and done it, in part) for keeping him in the dark. He should have come clean about any number of things *long* before the end of the year (and the end of the book), and he knows it. Knowledge could have prevented a lot of worrying and trouble that exploded into disaster. Harry is important, nay, essential--and as such has the right to both know and learn for himself, and not merely rely upon the knowledge of the Headmaster. Ignorance is not bliss, it breeds miscommunication and ill-informed actions. It would probably be a further balm to Harry's soul to talk over the circumstances of his being left at the Dursleys, and the depth of Dumbledore's regret at taking such actions that he knew would result in a stifled childhood bereft of many of the positive experiences that Harry might have otherwise had. I can't imagine having grown up without little birthday parties or the feeling of being wanted by my parents. > Carol, who is a bit disconcerted by this new format and hopes that > the List Elves can do something about the jumbled mess on the home > page as it appears in Netscape 7.2 Sorry--no can do there, I think. I don't like this bizzare new format better than anyone else does, but there doesn't seem to be a way to opt out of it. We'll be up on what can be done about it, though. -Nora starts to catalog saints for fun but not profit From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 04:15:50 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 04:15:50 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126603 Lupinlore wrote: And absence evidence of such sorrow, and a much better explanation of his decisions, then I and others simply don't see him the way JKR wishes us to. Carol responds: Forgive me, Lupinlore, but I really wish you wouldn't assume that your views coincide with those of the group or even most of its members. We really can't know what others think, can we? You're opinions and you're entitled to them, but please treat them as just that--your opinions. Alla: I thought Lupinlore meant by "others" those who agree with him, but that's just me. Sigh... and I thought that I am being ridiculous sometimes when I put "just my opinion" in every post of mine, I guess not. Isn't it just a formality after all? Isn't all that we post here is our opinions, not facts, unless supported by scientific proof, of course? Carol: That aside, can you show me any evidence that Harry has suffered long-term damage from being left with the Dursleys, or from any other decisions of Dumbledore's? Alla: I am in no mood right now to cite every quote of Harry's life with Dursleys, I did that several times, so I will just say that - I believe that Dumbledore is at least indirectly and at last partially responsible for Sirius' death ( by keeping him confined, etc, etc.) So, as result of Dumbledore's actions, Harry lost his Godfather. Whether you believe that Sirius was a good Godfather, or not, Harry loved him and he now lost a loved one. Here you go - long-term damage as result of Dumbledore's actions, since I believe that no matter what losing a loved one is not a good thing. Carol: I'm at a loss as to what you > want Dumbledore to apologize *for,* and I'm quite sure that Harry > would be astounded if he did any such thing. Alla: I am sure about the opposite - that Harry needs to hear such apology very badly, but that is of course just my opinion. Carol, who is a bit disconcerted by this new format and hopes that the List Elves can do something about the jumbled mess on the home page as it appears in Netscape 7.2 JMO, Alla, who is not used to new format yet either. From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 26 04:15:39 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (elady25) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 04:15:39 -0000 Subject: Christian references (Was Re: Half-Blood Prince) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126604 I have an amendment to this post: Tonks said she sees the WW as being like the angels and th MW as being the people on earth. I forgot to mention that I have always thought of the WW as bieng the body of Christ's church, and the MW as being the Gentiles, in a manner of speaking. imamommy --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elady25" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > > > imamommy: > > > > > > Why do you suppose the HBP necessarily needs to be a type and > > shadow of Christ? > > > > Tonks now: > > > > The half-blood prince could be someone alive now or in the past. > It could be a story about that person. But the person that it refers > > to must be a Christ figure because of the symbolism that runs > > throughout the HP series. We see so much symbolism of Christ in > > Harry that it led me to think that Harry was the Christ until the > > 5th book when he does in fact fall from grace and commits a sin. > > imamommy: > However, many scriptural and fictional characters are Christ symbols > wtihout being perfect as he was. The point is that they function in > a way to remind us of Christ. One example is King David, who is a > type and shadow of Christ in some stories, but becomes a pretty good > example of what pride and lust can drive us to in others. > > > > Sometimes when I think of the WW and the MW, I think of the > > difference between those in heaven (angels) and those on earth > > (humans) before the death, resurrection and ascension of XC. Jean > > Danielou, S.J., in his book "The Angels and Their Mission > (According > > to the Fathers of the Church)" speaks of some of the angels having > > what might be called a pure-blood philosophy. These angels did not > > want to be servants to humans whom they felt were below them. In > > this tradition Satan says "I will not pay homage to Adam" and when > > Michael was about to force me to pay homage I said "I will not pay > > homage to someone who is lower than I and who came after me." > > This was the sin of Satan and his followers. They would serve God, > > but not humans made in the image of God. > > > > I should explain here that there was a hierarchy in heaven with all > > pure blood angels, but different stations. As far as I can figure > > out there were 3 levels. When Jesus assended he went above them all > > to sit at the right hand of God. (As we see later in this post > > Lucifer had a problem with this idea.) > > imamommy: > > This is a bit OT, but I have a different understanding of what > happened in Heaven. According to the doctrines of my preferred > religion, we existed as spirit children in our Heavenly Father's > prescence. Christ, or Jehovah (of the OT) was the firstborn of these > children. Satan was another. At some point there was a great > council held, and Father presented his plan of happiness: that we > would come to earth to gain mortal bodies, and be tested and tried to > see if we would be obedient to him. We would have a veil across our > minds so that we could not remember our premortal life. We would > have free agency to choose good or evil. Father knew he would need a > Savior designated, so that if man fell the Savior could pay the price > for our physical and spiritual death. Then if we repented in the > name of the Savior, we could return to Father's prescence. Lucifer > (Satan) had another plan. He thought we sould come to earth and be > constrained to only do the will of God, and he wanted all the glory > to be given to him. Jehovah accepted the mission to be the Savior > and give the glory to Father. Two-thirds of us chose to follow > Father's plan and gain a mortal life; one-third followed Lucifer when > he was cast down, and became his minions, nver to recieve a mortal > body and therefore a chance at exaltation. Also, Micheal and Jehovah > were sent to form the earth. The spirit that was Micheal became Adam > in the garden. So I vary somewhat in theology from what you regard > as obvious, and I don't think there was any class distinction among > angels; rather I believe that angels are either spirits who have not > yet come to earth, or those who have already died. > > > When Jesus ascended back to heaven the angels that were not with > him > > on earth did not recognize him in his human form. They had to ask > > repeatedly "who is this?" before they opened the door. They were > > all shocked that God would bring his son (a half-blood Prince) back > > into heaven in his *human* body. Jesus is known as the Prince of > > Peace. And also after the resurrection and ascension, He is known > > as the King of Heaven. > > imamommy: > > I don't know if you are going to accept this, but there is a > scriptural reference in my religion that says "This is my work and my > glory: to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." > (We use other texts in addition to the Bible) I would not think the > angels were astounded that he was ascending, but I would venture that > they were perhaps testing his knowledge before he returned to > Father's prescence. (I'm not sure of the reference you are citing.) > > > > Thus it is Christ who is the half-blood Prince. All of JKR's work > > points to the Christ and the whole pure-blood clash concept has > > already been played out in human history when God took human form > > and became half God/half man in the person of Jesus. What is > > perplexing is just how this will be played out in the books. > > > > Tonks_op > > Tonks, thanks for making your case. I'm not saying it can't be. I'm > just saying it's not obvious in my mind that it has to be. Granted, > JKR's religious background may be more in keeping with yours, but > I've been amazed at how many time things have jumped out at me as > particular to my faith (the veil between this world and the next, for > example). And I would think to someone without a Christian > background at all, they would not be as quick to accept the theory. > There is a lot of Christian symbolism, but whether intentional or not > I cannot say. As I've said before, I think the best stories touch a > wide audience because they testify of Truth, real truth, that touches > our spirits no matter who we are. And that's why we all love HP. > > imamommy From thursdaymorning at outgun.com Thu Mar 24 18:12:44 2005 From: thursdaymorning at outgun.com (thursday morning) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 02:12:44 +0800 Subject: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition Message-ID: <20050324181244.6006421AFF9@ws5-6.us4.outblaze.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126605 Richard wrote in 126456: > (I still don't know why Malfoy was > trying to get Tom Riddle reborn. Maybe he didn't know that that > would be a consequence of his plan or that the monster was a > Basilisk. Did he know it was Riddle or just the "Heir of > Slytherin"? There is no evidence in COS or GOF that LV knew of > Malfoy's actions in COS.) Honestly, I don't think he was trying to get Riddle reborn. There are never just two sides to anything and I have no doubt that Malfoy is on side #3 - his own. He knew, just as well as Snape and Dumbledore knew, that LV was coming back. Getting the diary into the school gave him something to show LV as proof of his continued devotion. (That or die as I'm quite certain LV can do more than just call his Deatheaters thru that mark.) However, he hedged his bets by giving it specifically to Ginny Weasley. So far general consensus has it that he did so because he hates Arthur Weasley. I have no doubt that he honestly does dislike Arthur but I also think LM is a smart, smart puppet-master. After all, he's been dancing on both sides of the knife his entire adult life. I think he's studied the Weasleys (just as any good tactician studies all the players on the field) and I think his choice of Ginny Weasley was deliberate. Diagon Alley was full of students buying their school supplies but he deliberately gave it to Ginny. Why? Because she was raised by two loving, supportive parents who were raising her to be honest and brave. She knew the diary had not been bought for her. Why did she not take it to her parents at once and ask "Where did this come from and is it okay for me to keep it?" Having passed that option, why did she not take it to them when it started writing back? They had certainly made themselves clear on the subject of sentient inanimate objects. Failing that option, it still remains that Ginny was at school with *four* protective older brothers she could have gone to at any time. Also, her family has at least a decade (probably longer) of trusting MM, who was available to her as her head of house, and far longer of trusting DD. I think LM had every reason to expect Ginny to go to *someone* and stop the whole mess long before it went as far as it did. If it had gone the way he'd planned there would have been no active danger to the students but he'd still have the credibility he needed to survive the return of LV. Also, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he sent Dobby to Harry with a general order to keep him away/get him away from Hogwarts. After all, that would have upset DD's plans just as much as it would have protected a boy he has to be viewing as a possible tool for his own use. thursday -- From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Sat Mar 26 04:36:04 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 04:36:04 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126606 Steve: > McGuffin- > Definition: in film, a plot device that has no specific meaning or > purpose other than to advance the story; any situation that motivates > the action of a film either artificially or substantively; also > written MacGuffin > > > > I'm curious to what extent previous book titles limit the nature of > the Half-Blood Prince. > > In previous books, the title element (Harry Potter and '_insert > element here_') has for the most part been the McGuffin in the story. > It is not necessarily relavant in and of itself, but it, the 'title > element', has been the thing, the excuse, that carries the story > forward while the truer and deeper elements play out in that framework. > > Philosopher's Stone > Chamber of Secrets > Prisoner of Azkavan > Goblet of Fire > Order of the Phoenix > Half-Blood Prince > > > > Now the 'Half-Blood Prince'; if this McGuffin theme is carried > through, then the HBP has to be the vehicle that carries the story > forward, and provides the framework for more important themes to play out. John: As usual, Steve, you raise some excellent and very interesting points (sorry I had to snip so many of them). The questions for me are not *who is* the HBP, but *what* is a HBP, what does a HBP *do*, and how the heck does a HBP fit into the overall scheme of things? that is, the Second Voldy-war and Harry's destiny? Is there something actually called the HBP, or is the name just for the purposes of the title (like Sirius as "The Prisoner of Azkaban")? The more I think about it, the less inclined I am to believe that the HBP is an actual person. If it is, well, the most obvious candidate is GG. But that would seem to suggest that Harry is heir of GG and all that, which doesn't sit well with me?I figure that ProphecyBoy!Harry has "enough to be going on with" without being another "chosen one." Rather, I am leaning towards that highly ingenious theory woven by someone that the HBP is, in fact, a drink or potion. Something along the lines of: #potion drunk by Voldy, many years ago, to guard himself against mortal death, holds the key to his surviving GH (not sure how, exactly); #clue of some sort stumbled across by Harry, as per usual, which sets things in motion; #lunch hours devoted by trio to scouring library for extra info; #Harry and co. led on a wild goose chase; #inevitable calamity of some sort results, BUT Harry works out what happened exactly at GH, why it is that Voldy survived, and why it is that he seemingly has some residual voldy-bits inside of him; #dust settles around the wreckage and DD (if still alive) wraps things up, waxes lyrical about Harry's choices as compared to those of TR. The potion or drink drives the story forward but, in true McGuffin mold, is in itself not a key element of the story. It eventually *explains* lots of stuff but, once this stuff is explained, it is no longer of any real use to anyone. It also provides a vehicle for other important themes to be played out; Harry, by delving into Voldy/TR's past, finds out a lot more about what/how turned Tom to the dark side. By comparing and contrasting Harry and Tom's adolescent years, JKR is able to rehash that important "choices" theme. It's a pretty wild sort of theory, yes, based purely on impulse; but who knows? John. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Mar 26 05:26:27 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:26:27 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126607 > Carol responds: > Forgive me, Lupinlore, but I really wish you wouldn't assume that > your views coincide with those of the group or even most of its > members. We really can't know what others think, can we? You're > opinions and you're entitled to them, but please treat them as > just that--your opinions. Alla: > I thought Lupinlore meant by "others" those who agree with him, > but that's just me. Sigh... and I thought that I am being > ridiculous sometimes when I put "just my opinion" in every post of > mine, I guess not. Isn't it just a formality after all? Isn't all > that we post here is our opinions, not facts, unless supported by > scientific proof, of course? Jen: There is an understanding that everything posted is opinion, but I think there's a subtle distinction between a canon discussion and a purely personal opinion post. Mine will fall under the personal opinion post for the record ;). I think a canon post is a laying out of text in order to make a point. Yes, it's still an opinion post becuase I arrange the text in the way I wish, but the text is still guiding the post to a certain end. In a purely opinion post, canon text is not the major portion of the argument or debate. The major portion includes things like my personal view of a character or a situation, or plot points which ring true or fall flat for *me*. This type of post takes the discussion outside the text and is more prone to misunderstanding because it's clearly one person's POV. I'm not using the text to make my argument, but arguing about the text itself. Not that we can't post pure opinions, but that type of post more often boils down to "I believe this" "Well I believe that" and stalls out. It doesn't promote discussion, but division. We all like and don't like certain characters, situations, plot twists, etc. Stating that continuously doesn't further the debate or help another see something from within the story. Just my two knuts, Jen From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 26 05:39:28 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:39:28 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: <20050324181244.6006421AFF9@ws5-6.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126608 > Diagon Alley was full of students buying their school supplies but he deliberately gave {the diary} to Ginny. Why? Because she was raised by two loving, supportive parents who were raising her to be honest and brave. ...edited.... > I think LM had every reason to expect Ginny to go to *someone* and stop the whole mess long before it went as far as it did. If it had gone the way he'd planned there would have been no active danger to the students but he'd still have the credibility he needed to survive the return of LV. > > Also, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he sent Dobby to Harry with a general order to keep him away/get him away from Hogwarts. After all, that would have upset DD's plans just as much as it would have protected a boy he has to be viewing as a possible tool for his own use. > > thursday > -- Valky: Hmm I think that this is a perfectly reasonable explanation Thursday, but I would like to offer mine which has a entirely different spin on it. I think that Lucius gave the diary to Ginny because she is pureblood. And not just pureblood but a Weasley Blood Traitor and therefore a 'dispensable' Pureblood. You see, my thoughts lean towards why Tom created the Diary in the first place. When I think of the title 'Teenage Tom and the Quest for Immortality' something just doesn't fit. Tom wasn't questing for immortality when he was a schoolboy, he was questing for a way to rid himself of his fathers dirty Muggle Blood. AHA! The Diary! What if it was always intended to be a method of gaining PURE BLOOD in his veins!! Yeah, I think Lucius and Tom had an agreement - Lucius gets Tom a pureblood body to own and Tom makes Lucius the King od wizardom by getting rid of Dumbledore. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 07:55:34 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:55:34 -0000 Subject: Is Flamel dead yet? - No but he was born French. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > > > > Ray: > > > > The historical Flamel is French, yes. (A 14th Century French > > Alchemist who was rumored to have discovered the Philosopher's > > Stone and the secret to eternal life). But is there canon on > > Dumbledore's old friend? > > > > -- Ray > a_svirn: > > I see no reason why he shouldn't be French. I think that DD is a > great believer in the international friendship. > a_svirn bboyminn: Indeed during the 14th Century Flamel was French, you can still go visit the house he lived in in Paris. It's been converted to an Inn. He is also allegedly buried there, although even in the real world many people dispute whether there is actually a body in the grave. However today - "There have been many reports of the Sorcerer's Stone over the centuries, but the only Stone currently in existence belongs to Mr. Nicolas Flamel, the noted alchemist and opera lover. Mr. Flamel, who celebrated his six hundred and sixty-fifth birthday last year, enjoys a quiet life in **Devon** with his wife, Perenelle (six hundred and fifty-eight)." PS/SS Chapt 13 Am Ed PB Pg 273 Flamel and his wife, at least when the library reference book was published, were living in Devon. So, yes he was born and lived in France, but that was almost 700 years ago. Just passing it along. Steve/bboyminn From celletiger at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 08:00:46 2005 From: celletiger at yahoo.com (Marcelle) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:00:46 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126610 snippage... celletiger: Kay, the way I see it is that we aren't aware of any relation of DD to HP. DD, as much as he avoids it, is in a political position, just as any chancellor of a university is in a political position. Thank goodness DD is not "political" in the sense that he can be persuaded by money/power, (hey I'm from Louisiana). DD was simply taking care of business that night. It wasnt his responsibility to take HP anywhere that Halloween. In fact, its nice that a man of his position did. Sure DD was a leader in the OoP, but then the order should have been responsible for HP's future. DD acted quickly and obviously performed some charm that protected HP at Privet Drive for the first fourteen years he lived there. He put Figgy on the Drive to make sure the kid wasn't in mortal peril. Success is about managment skills, inculding delegation. DD thought it impt enough to himslef deliver HP to the Dursleys. DD alone will have to answer for any heinous problems of HP's mental development as a result of HP's tenure with the Dursleys, which since HP came out rather well adjusted (I attribute the 'tude problem in OoP to the tragic events of Gof), DD did what a prudent manager would do, and HP turned out alright. celletiger From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 08:39:38 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:39:38 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126611 Chys wrote: Godric Gryffindor/Salazar Slytherin? I have no idea. Perhaps, but how would that further the plot unless it has something to do with COS and something from the past conflicts or involving Hogwarts in some way? I can't see how it would be an important life-altering plot device unless it has to do with Harry's magic and his developing occlumency/eye magic he sees to be focusing on, which he inherited either from his mother, Voldemort, or both. vmonte responds: I think that the HBP is a person, not a drink, as some other posters believe. I also think that it's Godric Gryffindor. Mostly because it's time that we get the back-story between the break up of SS and GG. And also because Godric literally means: Rules with God. It's about time we see the power behind the Order. We already know how DEs came about, I want to know more about how the Order came to be-- because I think that it is a lot older than we've been led to believe. Is GG still alive? Or is he a penseive memory? Who knows? I keep thinking that Flamel was more that just DD's chemistry partner. And he lived a long life too. Is/was Flamel really GG? How did Flamel and Dumbledore meet? Was Flamel the previous leader of the Order? If he is/was GG it would explain why DD is now in possession of GG's sword. Did Flamel train DD to be the next Order leader? And is Dumbledore training Harry to be the next leader? Vivian http://www.cutebabyname.com/godric.html From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 09:13:36 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:13:36 -0000 Subject: Muggle Money Exchange Rate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Sage Lattes" wrote: > > Ok, so what is it, does anyone have any past discussion references > they could send me to tell me exactly what the exchange rate is > between Muggle and Wizarding money? Or do we know the knut to dollar > rate? > > ...edited... > > > So what is it? > > *very curious* > > Chys bboyminn: We don't actually know the Galleon to Dollar ratio. The best we have is JKR interview statement that 1 Galleon is /about/ 5 British Pounds. But since that statement was made without a reference to when it was one to about five, we can't really accurately allow for the flucuations in currency rates. This does allow us to roughly convert Galleons into Pound, and then we can easily use current exchange rates to convert Pounds into US Dollars or any other currency. It's not completely accurate but for rough estimates I use this ratio G1:?5:$7.5 One Galleon = Five Pounds = Seven Dollars and fifty cents. The conversion between Pound and Dollar is 1.5, so ?5 x 1.5 = $7.50 Again, because US to Pound currency exchange rates are always changing, it's never completely accurate, but if you are just trying to make a fair estimate of the cost of something, it works out OK. For example, the 10 Galleon Omnoculars were about ?50 or $75. I've been looking for a post in which I had the cost many of the items in the books figured out, but I can't find it. If I recall correctly, a butterbeer is about US$.60. Hope that helps. If I find other posts with more details, I'll send them to you. Steve/bboyminn From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 26 13:30:32 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:30:32 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: <20050324181244.6006421AFF9@ws5-6.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126613 Thursday wrote: > Honestly, I don't think he was trying to get Riddle reborn. There are never just two sides to anything and I have no doubt that Malfoy is on side #3 - his own. He knew, just as well as Snape and Dumbledore knew, that LV was coming back. Getting the diary into the school gave him something to show LV as proof of his continued devotion. (That or die as I'm quite certain LV can do more than just call his Deatheaters thru that mark.) > I think LM had every reason to expect Ginny to go to *someone* and stop the whole mess long before it went as far as it did. If it had gone the way he'd planned there would have been no active danger to the students but he'd still have the credibility he needed to survive the return of LV. > Also, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he sent Dobby to Harry with a general order to keep him away/get him away from Hogwarts. After all, that would have upset DD's plans just as much as it would have protected a boy he has to be viewing as a possible tool for his own use. Hannah: Now that is a very interesting idea. I personally think that he gave the diary to Ginny because he was hoping she'd be caught and thus he could use that as a way to discredit Arthur and stop the Muggle Protection Act. The argument against his using the diary as a way to show LV that he still supported him would be why Lucius never brought it up in the graveyard scene. There's LV, berating Lucius for his lack of loyalty, and not once does Malfoy say; 'but master, I planted the diary into Hogwarts!' I do think Dobby acted of his own volition, having heard what Lucius planned, and fearing that Harry would be endangered. Whether there was an actual specific threat to Harry, or whether Dobby was just concerned that he'd be hurt accidentally, I don't know. Hannah From gidgx at yahoo.com.au Sat Mar 26 10:27:43 2005 From: gidgx at yahoo.com.au (gidgx) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:27:43 -0000 Subject: HBP - Seamus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126614 I was just wondering if anyone else thought that the half-blood prince is Seamus? "gidgx" From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 26 14:47:23 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:47:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character Discussion: Hagrid (2) - Grawp and the giants Message-ID: <20050326144723.8811.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126615 In book 5 Hagrid reveals his compassion for humanity. One day, when Ron is engaged in playing quidditch, Hagrid asks Harry and Hermione to come into the Forbidden Forest with him. When they reach a place deep in the forest, they see a great mound of earth that moves rhythmically up and down, accompanied to the sound of deep, grunting breathing. They realise to their horror that it is a sleeping giant. I couldn' leave him,' said Hagrid, tears now trickling down his bruised face into his beard. 'See he's my brother! These are among the most sublime words in the whole Harry Potter septology. This proves what the Masters of Compassion feel for humanity: they see us as their brothers. The sleeping giant is the symbol for the unconscious masses. We learn that the giants name is Grawp and that he is tied to the trees around him. Hagrid asks Harry and Hermione to befriend him and to teach him things. Here we see a Master of Compassion, or Hierophant, showing the apprentice alchemist what his task will be in the future: to teach unconscious humanity. This is an extension of Harrys work as leader of Dumbledores army, which is the Jupiter initiation. We notice that Ron is absent. This is a task for the new soul and the new mind. The old, earthly personality is not involved. The mystery of why Hagrid is always bleeding and showing wounds and lacerations is now solved. Grawp is somewhat reluctant, and not too sensitive about what he does to others. This is the reward for the Bodhisattvas sympathy for the suffering of the human race: wounds, blood and pain. But to Hagrid this means nothing. He loves his brother with all-enduring patience and brushes the wounds off as insignificant. When we look back to Hagrids tale earlier in the story we can learn more about the relationship of the Hierophant with humanity. Hagrid is accompanied by Olympe Maxime when he visits the giant community in a valley far, far away from civilization. They tread with caution as the giants are very aggressive. To make sure they are well received they bring some gifts. First they bring everlasting fire. 'Dumbledore'd bewitched this branch to burn fer evermore, which isn' somethin' any wizard could do, an' so I lies it down in the snow by Karkuss feet and says, "A gift to the Gurg of the giants from Albus Dumbledore, who sends his respectful greetings."' 'And what did Karkus say?' asked Harry eagerly. 'Nothin',' said Hagrid. 'Didn' speak English.' Who are these giants? They are the nations of the earth! They do not understand the language of the Masters of Compassion. They dont even understand each other, as they all speak different languages. Hagrid tells us they are every aggressive and kill each other at the drop of a hat. They are always warring. How typical of the human race! Nearing extinction, Hagrid says. The first gift is everlasting fire. This is obviously a reference to the Greek legend of Prometheus, who brought fire to humanity. This proves beyond any doubt that Jo is symbolising the giants as humanity, the masses in general. In the Greek legend Prometheus steals fire from Mt Olympus to give the fire to the human race. The fact that Hagrids partner is Olympe, the French feminine form of Olympus, proves that Jo is referring to this legend beyond a shadow of doubt. The three gifts are: everlasting fire, an indestructible helmet, and a roll of dragon skin. Three supernal and radiant symbols of what the Masters of compassion want for humanity: a total renewal of spirit, soul and body. The fire is the soul-fire that is born in the heart when a person opens his heart to the divine power. This soul-fire is the new soul, personified in Harry Potter by Harry. The helmet is the new spirit that enters the head when the heart has been renewed. This is personified by Hermione. The dragon skin symbolises the new indestructible body that is constructed after liberation has been achieved through the rebirth of the soul and the spirit. If there is any proof needed of what Harry Potter is really about, surely this is the one of the clearest and most obvious symbols in the whole book? Thanks for coming down from Mt Olympus to give us Harry Potter, Jo! "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 14:50:15 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 06:50:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050326145015.68639.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126616 --- thursday morning wrote: > > Honestly, I don't think he was trying to get Riddle reborn. There > are never just two sides to anything and I have no doubt that > Malfoy is on side #3 - his own. He knew, just as well as Snape and > Dumbledore knew, that LV was coming back. Getting the diary into > the school gave him something to show LV as proof of his continued > devotion. Very true, but we should remember that the main impetus for Lucius to get rid of a lot of things he happened to have around the house was that the Ministry was conducting raids and searches and therefore Lucius was prudently getting...questionable...artefacts out of the manor. Riddle's diary was a special case; it couldn't be sold because it was possible to "activate" it and therefore since something had to be done with it, the best option would have been to get it into Hogwarts where it could wreck havoc - well away from Wiltshire. So the main impetus for getting rid of the diary was to get it out of Malfoy manor before the Arthur Weasleys of the MoM could find it. There was no call from Voldemort to "plant" the diary on someone. Had the MoM not got too close for comfort, there's no reason to suspect the diary wouldn't still be in the Malfoy family vault, collecting dust. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 14:58:19 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 06:58:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Christian references (Was Re: Half-Blood Prince) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050326145820.93438.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126617 Another Jesus-Harry similarity: Jesus was never a prefect either. Magda (couldn't resist and now hiding under desk) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 15:39:22 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:39:22 -0000 Subject: Founders in DD's Office In-Reply-To: <20050325182517.36485.qmail@web14926.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126618 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lauren Thibeault wrote: > > I just had a thought when rereading Order of the > Phoenix. If there is a picture of all the Headmasters > in DD's office wouldn't there be pictures of the > founders as well? If so this could be how the Godric > Gryffindor might be "spoken to" in HBP. Tonks now: I have often wondered about the portraits in DD's office. I guess the founders could be there, but why have we not seen them? There is also the fact that the portraits are bound to follow the orders of the current Headmaster. Thus it was very important for DD's office to be sealed when Umbridge took over the school, so that she could not use them. So would the founders have allowed a portrait to be made? Maybe not. Now I know that JKR does not want to lead anyone, child or otherwise, to the Dark side, but I still wonder if this portrait thing isn't a form of Necromancy. For those here who may not be aware of this so called Dark Art, let me explain. Necromancy is where a wizard calls the spirits of the other world. They can be the dead or some form of spirit that lives only on the other side of the veil. They are called demons, but not in the Jewish/Christian sense of the word. The wizard draws a circle around himself with protective symbols around it so that the demon cannot hurt him. Then he calls the demon to do his bidding, often transmitting messages and gathering information. I really don't know a lot about this, but I have a very old *Wizard* friend that does. ;-) So while Necromancy is often thought of as a Dark Art (the demon has no free choice), if the former Headmasters were given a choice at one point and made a vow to be used by the current Headmaster, then DD could engage in this practice. But I think if JKR was using this bit of Wizardry she would hide it very carefully. This also can be a clue as to why pictures cannot be used but portraits can. Maybe there is something of the subject (lock of hair, finger nail, blood, etc.) in the portrait that makes the subject part of their own portrait in a way that they would not be in a picture. And in this way the portrait can be used in much the same way as the Necromancer would use the demon. Tonks_op From tmar78 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 17:10:07 2005 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:10:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Veritaserum and Imperius or memory charm In-Reply-To: <1111847837.15373.38667.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050326171007.95529.qmail@web14121.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126619 ST wrote: I was just wondering; if someone is under the Imperus that instructs him to tell lies about something and then is administered Veritaserum, which one is stronger? Alternative: what if the Imperius instructs the one to believe that the lies are the truth? And finally: what if there is no Imperius, instead a memory charm that makes the one forget. Is Veritaserum strong enough to call on the memories from the person's subconscious? Tyler responds: Question #1: Veritaserum seems to be some pretty strong stuff, but the Imperius Curse can be pretty hard to shake off. Tough call. Perhaps if the person was trying to resist, the Veritaserum might give their mind enough of a boost to break free. Question #2: I don't think an Imperius Curse can be made to act as a makeshift memory charm; I don't think it can make you forget the truth. I think it could only force you to lie about it. Best case scenario, the IC could force you not to think about the truth, to put it in the back of your mind somewhere, making it harder for a truth potion or Legilimenist to uncover it. Question #3: Hmm...good one! Well, we do know there are ways to recall memories suppressed by a memory charm. Veritaserum might just be one of those ways; seems like a good possibility. On a related note, didn't JKR once say that Voldemort broke through Bertha Jorkin's MC using the Cruciatus Curse? Or did I dream that? www.redmeat.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From stix4141 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 26 19:50:32 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:50:32 -0000 Subject: HBP - the Unusual Suspects - Crookshanks (was: HBP - Seamus?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126620 gidgx: > I was just wondering if anyone else thought that the half-blood > prince is Seamus? stickbook: That's interesting, considering that his mam was not initially supportive of Harry and Dumbledore in OotP. It occured to me that the HBP might be Crookshanks, given his way-above-average feline intelligence and the accepted theory that he's half-kneazel. I'm looking forward to finding out more about Crookshanks, with particular regards to his immediate and intense animosity toward Scabbers in the Magical Menagerie (PoA)--if Crookshanks indeed recognized Wormtail in animagus form, then what was the extent of his involvement in VW1? stickbook From stix4141 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 26 20:14:33 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:14:33 -0000 Subject: The barman in the Hog's Head Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126621 During a recent reread of OotP, this passage during the Hog's Head scene caught my eye: "The barman sidled toward them out of a back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal fo long gray hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry." (Chapter 16: In The Hog's Head) It really drives me nuts sometimes that Harry doesn't pay more attention to these things--WHY does he look familiar? I'd like to put forth the theory that the barman is (drum roll please) Aberforth Dumbledore. Arguments in favor: - Physical description is similar to that of Albus - Harry saw Aberforth in Moody's photo of the original Order (Chapter 9: The Woes Of Mrs. Weasley), possibly explaining why he looked familiar - Aberforth appears not to have been very involved with the other members of the original Order--Moody tells Harry that he only ever met Aberforth one time, and that he was a "strange bloke"--and this could explain why none of the current Order members seem to be familiar with his whereabouts - This is just fun: Harry notices that the Hog's Head "smelled strongly of something that might have been goats." Arguments against: - Why would Mundungus have been the one to spy on Harry at the initial DA meeting when the Order could have used Aberforth? (Refutes could include a falling-out between Albus and Aberforth, or that Aberforth is an ultra-secret agent for Albus.) Any other ideas? stickbook From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 26 20:34:23 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:34:23 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Elves & Slavery - plus Goblin thoughts References: <1111806857.27606.54937.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001201c53243$33dc4b40$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 126622 a_svirn wrote: >What you are saying, Steve, in essence, is that humans must take >pains to be generous and fair-minded masters rather than cruel and >abusive ones. Either way they should still stay masters and elves >should still stay slaves. You may be right IF indeed the flaw is in >the elves' nature. It seems highly unlikely though that they >have "evolved" to their slavery all by themselves. I for one think >that their "nature and attitude" has been ruthlessly tampered with. No, I don't think I'im putting words in Steve's mouth in denying that he's saying that. Elves aren't human and they don't have human nature. Their nature is to do housework. Some (and I'm sure not all) wizards take advantage of that by mistreating elves in their households. That doesn't make them "masters" any more than it makes elves "slaves". Closest example in our own world (which doesn't have any other sapient species any more) is that some humans mistreat their pets, and that some farmers mistreat their stock. That doesn't change the nature of the cats, dogs, or chickens, it's just a practice which most of us find repugnant. If I was to end the "slavery" of my old dog, she'd die a miserable death on the streets. I think it's equally cruel to try to force elves to be what? Proletarians? when they just don't want to be. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From stix4141 at hotmail.com Sat Mar 26 20:38:11 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:38:11 -0000 Subject: The barman in the Hog's Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126623 Sorry, everybody. I realized this was discussed not too long ago just after I posted :( stickbook crawing under a rock --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stickbook41" wrote: > > During a recent reread of OotP, this passage during the Hog's Head > scene caught my eye: > > "The barman sidled toward them out of a back room. He was a > grumpy-looking old man with a great deal fo long gray hair and beard. > He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry." (Chapter > 16: In The Hog's Head) > > It really drives me nuts sometimes that Harry doesn't pay more > attention to these things--WHY does he look familiar? I'd like to put > forth the theory that the barman is (drum roll please) Aberforth > Dumbledore. > > Arguments in favor: > - Physical description is similar to that of Albus > - Harry saw Aberforth in Moody's photo of the original Order (Chapter > 9: The Woes Of Mrs. Weasley), possibly explaining why he looked > familiar > - Aberforth appears not to have been very involved with the other > members of the original Order--Moody tells Harry that he only ever met > Aberforth one time, and that he was a "strange bloke"--and this could > explain why none of the current Order members seem to be familiar with > his whereabouts > - This is just fun: Harry notices that the Hog's Head "smelled > strongly of something that might have been goats." > > Arguments against: > - Why would Mundungus have been the one to spy on Harry at the initial > DA meeting when the Order could have used Aberforth? (Refutes could > include a falling-out between Albus and Aberforth, or that Aberforth > is an ultra-secret agent for Albus.) > > Any other ideas? > > stickbook From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 20:40:46 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:40:46 -0000 Subject: The barman in the Hog's Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126624 stickbook wrote: During a recent reread of OotP, this passage during the Hog's Head scene caught my eye: "The barman sidled toward them out of a back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal fo long gray hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry." (Chapter 16: In The Hog's Head) It really drives me nuts sometimes that Harry doesn't pay more attention to these things--WHY does he look familiar? I'd like to put forth the theory that the barman is (drum roll please) Aberforth Dumbledore. vmonte responds: Hi stickbook, JKR already confirmed that Aberforth is the barkeep at the Hogs Head Inn. See Lexicon for info: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/aberforth.html Vivian From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 20:46:25 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:46:25 -0000 Subject: House Elves & Slavery In-Reply-To: <001201c53243$33dc4b40$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126625 A_svirn wrote: It seems highly unlikely though that they have "evolved" to their slavery all by themselves. I for one think that their "nature and attitude" has been ruthlessly tampered with. Ffred: Elves aren't human and they don't have human nature. Their nature is to do housework. Closest example in our own world (which doesn't have any other sapientspecies any more) is that some humans mistreat their pets, and that somefarmers mistreat their stock. That doesn't change the nature of the cats,dogs, or chickens, it's just a practice which most of us find repugnant. If I was to end the "slavery" of my old dog, she'd die a miserable death on the streets. I think it's equally cruel to try to force elves to be what? Proletarians? when they just don't want to be. Alla: I tend to agree with A_svirn. Personally I would like to see MUCH more evidence before I agree that slaves nature is to do housework and housework only. The beings with such powerful magic as Dobby has seem to me to be suited to do more advanced things than just to serve wizards. I also disagree with comparison of Elves and pets. Elves have the intellect of the same strength as wizards do, IMO, even if they employ it differently. Also IMO, pets don't ( I am not saying that cats and dogs are stupid, of course not). I will be the first one to say that Hermione needs to adjust her methods and figure out what Elves REALLY want, but I don't think that we know for sure that that is ALL they want. Just my opinion of course, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 20:48:37 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:48:37 -0000 Subject: House Elves & Slavery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126626 Alla: I tend to agree with A_svirn. Personally I would like to see MUCH more evidence before I agree that slaves nature is to do housework and housework only. Alla: Apologies - I mean "ELVES" nature of course. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 21:14:27 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:14:27 -0000 Subject: Is Flamel dead yet? - No but he was born French. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126627 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > > > > > > > Ray: > > > > > > The historical Flamel is French, yes. (A 14th Century French > > > Alchemist who was rumored to have discovered the Philosopher's > > > Stone and the secret to eternal life). But is there canon on > > > Dumbledore's old friend? > > > > > > -- Ray > > > > a_svirn: > > > > I see no reason why he shouldn't be French. I think that DD is a > > great believer in the international friendship. > > a_svirn > > bboyminn: > > Indeed during the 14th Century Flamel was French, you can still go > visit the house he lived in in Paris. It's been converted to an Inn. > He is also allegedly buried there, although even in the real world > many people dispute whether there is actually a body in the grave. > > However today - > > "There have been many reports of the Sorcerer's Stone over the > centuries, but the only Stone currently in existence belongs to > Mr. Nicolas Flamel, the noted alchemist and opera lover. Mr. Flamel, > who celebrated his six hundred and sixty-fifth birthday last year, > enjoys a quiet life in **Devon** with his wife, Perenelle (six hundred > and fifty-eight)." PS/SS Chapt 13 Am Ed PB Pg 273 > > Flamel and his wife, at least when the library reference book was > published, were living in Devon. > > So, yes he was born and lived in France, but that was almost 700 years > ago. > > Just passing it along. > > Steve/bboyminn a_svirn: Nice one, Steve. I wonder how many centuries of British residency make one eligible for the Minister office. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 21:36:03 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:36:03 -0000 Subject: House Elves & Slavery - plus Goblin thoughts In-Reply-To: <001201c53243$33dc4b40$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > a_svirn wrote: > >What you are saying, Steve, in essence, is that humans must take > >pains to be generous and fair-minded masters rather than cruel and > >abusive ones. Either way they should still stay masters and elves > >should still stay slaves. You may be right IF indeed the flaw is in > >the elves' nature. It seems highly unlikely though that they > >have "evolved" to their slavery all by themselves. I for one think > >that their "nature and attitude" has been ruthlessly tampered with. > > No, I don't think I'im putting words in Steve's mouth in denying that he's > saying that. > > Elves aren't human and they don't have human nature. > > Their nature is to do housework. > > Some (and I'm sure not all) wizards take advantage of that by mistreating > elves in their households. That doesn't make them "masters" any more than it > makes elves "slaves". > > Closest example in our own world (which doesn't have any other sapient > species any more) is that some humans mistreat their pets, and that some > farmers mistreat their stock. That doesn't change the nature of the cats, > dogs, or chickens, it's just a practice which most of us find repugnant. > > If I was to end the "slavery" of my old dog, she'd die a miserable death on > the streets. I think it's equally cruel to try to force elves to be what? > Proletarians? when they just don't want to be. > > Cheers > > Ffred > > O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon > Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion > Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri a_svirn: Excellent example, Ffred. You can't in all consciences abandon your old dog, because dogs have been domesticated throughout the centuries of breeding and training and are not consequently fit to live in wilderness. Well, most of them in all events. This is precisely what I am saying about elves. Wizards have meddled with their nature in order to force them to their bidding. DD told us as much, didn't he? And while I am not going to get too far afield discussing the rights of animals, I find the domestication of sapient creatures most repugnant. And yes, it makes them slaves, just as it makes wizards masters. As for your analogy with cattle it is also apt! I don't understand why you object to the term "slave" if you are ready to liken them to the stock, though. The latter is hardly any better than the former. a_svirn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 22:34:09 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:34:09 -0000 Subject: House Elves & Slavery - minus Goblin thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > I agree that more human meddling is not need, and ...we should just let > the house-elves get on with doing what they do best. > ... that thing that needs fixing is not the Elves, it's the > wizards. > > ...edited... > > When wizards become as honorable as elves, the problem will be > solved. > a_svirn responded: What you are saying, Steve, in essence, is that humans must take pains to be generous and fair-minded masters rather than cruel and abusive ones. Either way they should still stay masters and elves should still stay slaves. You may be right IF indeed the flaw is in the elves' nature. It seems highly unlikely though that they have "evolved" to their slavery all by themselves. ... bboyminn: Did I read this sentence correctly- "You may be right IF indeed the flaw is in the /elves/ nature." Did you mean 'elves nature' or 'wizards nature'? I'm not sure it will change my response, just wonder if it was a typo. I stand firmly on the position that it IS the natural normal nature of House-elves to serve humans. That really is their true /natural/ nature. On that we seem to disagree. But I will agree with your implication that the current manifestation of the House-elves servitude did not evolve without help. Wizard have indeed perverted the good nature of House-Elves, but NOT by convincing them that they have to be 'slaves'. The pervertion is in House-Elves believing they have to take everything a wizard dishes out. That they have to accept abuse, as well as dishonor and disrespect by their 'masters'. I am also rejecting the human notion of /slavery/ with respect to the House-elves. If you abuse and mistreat your kids, are they then by that action slaves? If you make them work around the house, are they by that action then slaves? We can say kids are different because they have free will, but if they truly have free will then why don't they reject the abuse and /forced/ labor? You can counter that by saying that they are free to leave, but are they? Why do you suppose kids stay in abusive situation? Because they are bound by their family connection, and are for the most part, completely dependant on their parents. I admit that illustration is somewhat limited in reflecting the House-Elves situation. If you look at the general mythology around various Helper-Elf legends, you will see that they volunteer their services. They are not slaves. Now JKR's Helper-Elves go a little beyond that in that they make a bonded commitment of loyalty and service to the people they serve; call those people masters if you will, but that doesn't make House-Elves slaves. So the Elves enter into voluntary servitude. I firmly believe what holds them there in service is not a force of magic or law, but the potential violation of their core nature, and the shame and disgrace that comes with it. That is what we are seeing in Winky, in here mind she has violated her very essense of being, and now can not face the shame and disgrace of having done so. I guess my really point in response to your 'evolution' comment, is that I agree wizards have corrupted and influenced that core nature of elves, not with regard to their desire to serve, but with regard to the Elves accepting their ill treatment. Wizard have exploited and even re-enforced the fierce honor and loyalty of Elves, preying on and further re-enforcing their shame so that wizards could maintain their power over the Elves. It is in the normal nature of elves to serve, but it is not in the normal nature of any species to be mistreated and abused. In short, they DO really like the service, but they hate the abuse. As much as they hate the abuse, their sense of honor and loyalty will not let them leave. BUT and this is a big BUT, if the Elves do choose to leave their Master and their Master's abuse, there is nothing in magic or law that can stop them. The only tool or weapon Masters have against the elves is shame, and if the elves are no longer buying in to that, then the Masters can't hold them. (my speculation) I admit that the two of us are splitting hairs and are separated by a very fine line. The reason I reject the use of the word 'slavery' even though the books and the elves themselves use the term 'enslavement' to refer to their service, is because we are not dealing with slavery in a human context. Human slaves are either kidnapped or conquered, and forced into slavery, and held against their will for generations. The penalty for violation of service is death. Elves on the other hand eagerly seek out service, and are unhappy when it is not available. Seeking out service is the first thing Dobby did upon being freed. Remember the penalty to an Elf for violation of service is not death, but freedom. That tells you a lot about the arrangement. I can't deny that elements of slavery are part of the wizard/house-elf arrangement. But I stop short of flat out using the term /slavery/ in the human context because that is an exageration, a misleading overstatement with regard to the very special and unique nature of House-Elves. So, the best I can give you is to admit to /elements/ of slavery, but I firmly stop short of using the term slavery in a human context because /human context/ in not the appropriate or analogous context for House-Elves. > bboyminn originally said: > > I think at the core of the many Goblin rebellions, was the Goblin trying > to point out to wizard how hopelessly and ridiculously misguided the > wizards were in trying to bring anything and everything into their > dominion and under their control. > a_svirn responds: What a way to describe a rebellion! Talk about understatements_ a_svirn Bboyminn: Well, yes, a bit of an understatement. But on the other hand how many /rebellions/ against European dominance have been based in a 'how dare you think you can tell me what to do and how to live' attitude? Steve/bboyminn From nrenka at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 22:35:13 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:35:13 -0000 Subject: House Elves & Slavery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > A_svirn wrote: > > It seems highly unlikely though that they > have "evolved" to their slavery all by themselves. I for one think > that their "nature and attitude" has been ruthlessly tampered with. > > Ffred: > > > Elves aren't human and they don't have human nature. > > Their nature is to do housework. > > Closest example in our own world (which doesn't have any other > sapientspecies any more) is that some humans mistreat their pets, > and that somefarmers mistreat their stock. That doesn't change the > nature of the cats, dogs, or chickens, it's just a practice which > most of us find repugnant. > Alla: > I also disagree with comparison of Elves and pets. Elves have the > intellect of the same strength as wizards do, IMO, even if they > employ it differently. Also IMO, pets don't (I am not saying that > cats and dogs are stupid, of course not). I think that Alla is right in pointing out that house elves, unlike cats and dogs, are fully sapient beings (so far as we can tell). They communicate with human language and are included as some of the Magical Bretheren along with the centaurs and goblins. Dobby is capable of artistic creation that goes beyond just utilitarian things. Yes, he makes Harry Potter socks, but he also paints Harry Potter, and the creation of art is something that speaks to his greater capabilities. We know that house-elves have powerful magic of their own kind and can do things that wizards cannot. They are also presented as having many of the same foibles as humans. Kreacher's twistedness is not so far off what a human can become, or Winky's refuge in drunkenness, or Dobby's combination of fear and brave iconoclasm. Compare a house-elf even to the partially anthropomorphized Buckbeak and see the difference. I tend to agree with Steve that the essentially generous and devoted nature of the house-elf has been cruelly and inconsiderately exploited by wizards. Dumbledore is telling us The Way It Is when he says that wizards have exploited their fellow beings for too long. While there may be something in the fundamental nature of the house- elf that says "work and loyalty are what I really want to do", wizard treatment (with exceptions such as Dumbledore) is not much of a good thing. I expect this theme to come up again and matter somehow. The destruction of the Fountain is too explicit a symbol not to be run with. -Nora wishes she had a friendly helpful house-elf to dust... From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 22:39:11 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:39:11 -0000 Subject: Thoughts Regarding HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126631 vmonte: Just some thoughts regarding HBP: The children are always taught magic or introduced to an object or animal that will help them fight against Voldemort and the DEs. We know of two major things that are going to happen in book 6. 1. Hermione will be turning 17 a few weeks into the beginning of sixth year. She will be able to apparate early in the year, Ron a few months later, but Harry not until the summer. What comes to mind my mind is that Hermione and Ron are going to have a strategic advantage over Harry and Neville (as well as Ginny and Luna). 2. Human Transfiguration will be taught to HRH this year. What exactly is human transfiguration anyway? Can a wizard turn into objects and animals, as well as other people (as with polyjuice)? I have a prediction that Ron and Hermione will excel in this class and that Harry will not. I have no proof, but it's about time Harry isn't best in something, IMO. (Besides, Harry's strength lies more in is combat skills/instincts.) Other thoughts: It also seems reasonable to assume that Harry (and probably Neville) will be taking NEWT level Potions. (The adult book cover for Half- Blood Prince seems to allude to this anyway.) I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Harry and or Neville will excel in this class, and that JKR will make Harry or Neville an even better "potions master" than Snape. (We know that JKR has based Snape after a chemistry professor she hated. My feeling is that she will enjoy writing scenes that show Harry and or Neville surpassing Snape's skill and knowledge.) Alas, Mr. Weasley will not be the Minister of Magic. So, will he instead be killed along with his wife? With mom out of the picture no one will stop the Weasley kids from joining the Order. Besides, I think that Ron is going to show a lot of emotional/magical growth in the next book. Tragedy has a way of forcing you to grow up sometimes. If book 6 is more like part one of a two-part book, will book 6 end in a cliffhanger? Will we think that a major character has died? How will the Transfiguration classes come in to play in the final chapter of book 6? We'll also learn more about Voldemort's birth. I wonder why this is so important? (I really don't need to know more about Voldemort, I rather read more about Snape, Godric Gryffindor, Flamel, and Dumbledore's younger days to be honest.) We already know that Voldemort's father was human, so we must be learning more about LV's mother. Unless she was Grindelwald's daughter, I could really care less. That's it for now, Vivian http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/books/hbp/book_hbp.html From barbfulton at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 17:58:12 2005 From: barbfulton at yahoo.com (Barb Fulton) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:58:12 -0000 Subject: Muggle Money Exchange Rate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126632 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Sage Lattes" > wrote: > > > > Ok, so what is it, does anyone have any past discussion references > > they could send me to tell me exactly what the exchange rate is > > between Muggle and Wizarding money? Or do we know the knut to dollar > > rate? > > > > ...edited... > > Chys > > bboyminn: > > We don't actually know the Galleon to Dollar ratio. The best we have > is JKR interview statement that 1 Galleon is /about/ 5 British Pounds. > > But since that statement was made without a reference to when it was > one to about five, we can't really accurately allow for the > flucuations in currency rates. snip > One Galleon = Five Pounds = Seven Dollars and fifty cents. > > The conversion between Pound and Dollar is 1.5, so ?5 x 1.5 = $7.50 snip examples of what things cost > Steve/bboyminn Barb now: I thought I'd add a little more canon to the discussion...In the Forward to FBaWtFT, here is the following quote "Comic Relief U.K. has raised over 250 million dollarssince 1985 (that's also 174 million pounds, or thirty-four million, eight hundred and seventy- two Galleons, fourteen Sickles, and seven Knuts). With my lacking-maths skills, using these numbers, I figured a Galleon to be worth about $7.35. If I calculated incorrectly, please correct me. -Barb, delurking for a moment, now going back to hide in lurkdom From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 22:57:01 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:57:01 -0000 Subject: House Elves & Slavery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126633 Alla wrote: I also disagree with comparison of Elves and pets. Elves have the intellect of the same strength as wizards do, IMO, even if they employ it differently. Also IMO, pets don't ( I am not saying that cats and dogs are stupid, of course not). I will be the first one to say that Hermione needs to adjust her methods and figure out what Elves REALLY want, but I don't think that we know for sure that that is ALL they want. vmonte responds: Elves are not animals. They appear to have the same mental capacity as humans do, and in my opinion also appear to have greater magic within them. Just because a being chooses to serve others does not mean that that being is only good for that particular purpose. It also does not mean that that being has a lesser intellect than their master. Serving others may just be what elves feel is important and noble work. Perhaps wizards should stop feeling superior or sorry for elves, and try to understand what's important to them. Vivian From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Mar 26 23:17:06 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:17:06 -0000 Subject: OT: Yahoo's layout changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126634 I hope that the Elves will allow this message to be posted because, although it is technically off-topic, I think it deals with a serious development which, although discussed on OT-chatter and Feedback, really needs to be brought to the attention of the main HPFGU group for their consideration and action. We British have a saying that a camel is a horse designed by a committee and this seems to be true of the changes to the group layout introduced by Yahoo which seem to have been implemented by some one who does not belong to a group. The new screen layouts make it very awkward to use the group and also introduce a number of things which appear to contradict their description. For example, have you noticed that: 1. To move from one message to get to the next highest (and hence later) message, you click on "Previous" or to go backwards to an older post, you click on "Next". 2. When you select "Message Index" from a single message pane, instead of getting the next batch of messages chronologically forward from the one you are using, you get the previous batch, so you then have additionally to click on - guess(!) - "Previous". 3. There is no window to select an older message directly. Fortunately, someone on Feedback has pointed out the you can replace the message number in the URL window at the head of the message with the one you want. But how incredibly fiddly is that? 4. The message number is not shown alongside its contents in the list. So you have to count down the list to work out this piece of information. 5. The message order is reversed, with the newest message at the top. For me, that is annoying because, on the couple of occasions or so when I come onto the group during the day, I have to go to the bottom of the list to try to pick up from the point which I had previously reached. I feel that if other contributors agree with me then if we all take it upon ourselves to email Yahoo individually, they might ? just might ? realise that they have made a dog's breakfast of the changes and maybe have a rethink about the resultant mess. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 23:18:09 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:18:09 -0000 Subject: Muggle Money Exchange Rate? Link In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barb Fulton" wrote: > > snip > > > One Galleon = Five Pounds = Seven Dollars and fifty cents. > > > > The conversion between Pound and Dollar is 1.5, so ?5 x 1.5 = $7.50 > > snip examples of what things cost > > > Steve/bboyminn > Barb now: > > ...In ... FBaWtFT, here is the following quote "Comic Relief U.K. > has raised over $250 million since 1985 (that's also ?174 million > , or 34 million... Galleons,...). > > ..., I figured a Galleon to be worth about $7.35. ... > > -Barb Sorry for the short post. Here is a link to a previous discussion, with the G:?:$ cost of several items, and a link to the HP-Lexicon's Galleon/Pound/Dollar currency converter. It shows the Galleon currently at $7.33. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/118127 Steve/bboyminn From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 18:45:25 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:45:25 -0000 Subject: The curious silver instruments Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126636 I've been interested in the WW machinery. Let's see, there's the interesting clocks, DD's watch and the Weasleys' clock. There's the WW cars that seem to hold much more than expected and can move through traffic magically. (I want one.) There's the sneakascopes and the various mirrors (foe glass, mirror of Erised, the one Sirius gave Harry). Of course there's wands and radios and pensives. I'm sure I've missed a lot. You probably have discussed this, but perhaps some of you oldtimers can enlighten us newcomers. The ones that interest me most currently are the fragile silver instruments in DD's office. from COS chapter 11 "A number of curious silver instruments stood on spindle-legged tables, whirring and emitting little puffs of smoke." from OOP chapter 22 "Dumbledore now swooped down upon one of the fragile silver instruments whose function Harry had never known, carried it over to his desk, sat down facing them again, and tapped it gently with the tip to his wand. The instrument tinkled into life at once with rhythmic clinking noises. Tiny puffs of pale green smoke issued from the minuscule silver tube at the top. Dumbledore watched the smoke closely, his brow furrowed, and after a few seconds, the tiny puffs became a steady stream of smoke that thickened and coiled in the air....A serpent's head grew out of the end of it, opening its mouth wide. Harry wondered whether the instrument was confirming his story: He looked eagerly at Dumbledore for a sign that he was right, but Dumbledore did not look up. 'Naturally, naturally,' murmured Dumbledore apparently to himself, still observing the stream of smoke without the slightest sign of surprise. 'But in essence divided?' Harry could make neither head nor tail of this question. The smoke serpent, however, split itself instantly into two snakes, both coiling and undulating in the dark air. With a look of grim satisfaction Dumbledore gave the instrument another gentle tap with his wand: The clinking noise slowed and died, and the smoke serpents grew faint, became a formless haze, and vanished. Dumbledore replaced the instrument upon its spindly little table;....." What is this all about? Will we learn more in books 6 and 7? Does anyone have any ideas? Bonnie From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 26 20:01:39 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:01:39 -0000 Subject: Why did Crookshanks 'hate' Scabbers was: HBP - the Unusual Suspects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126637 Stickbook wrote: >I'm looking forward to finding out more about Crookshanks, with >particular regards to his immediate and intense animosity toward >Scabbers in the Magical Menagerie (PoA)--if Crookshanks indeed >recognized Wormtail in animagus form, then what was the extent of >his involvement in VW1? Karen: I don't think that he recognised Wormtail in animagus form, it's just that kneazles "can detect unsavory or suspicious persons very well and will react badly to them". (As per the book of Fantastic Beasts and where to find them, it's also reported on the Lexicon in their Beastiery section.) Karen From pegruppel at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 23:50:27 2005 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:50:27 -0000 Subject: Veritaserum and Imperius or memory charm In-Reply-To: <20050326171007.95529.qmail@web14121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney wrote: > Question #3: Hmm...good one! Well, we do know there > are ways to recall memories suppressed by a memory > charm. Veritaserum might just be one of those ways; > seems like a good possibility. On a related note, > didn't JKR once say that Voldemort broke through > Bertha Jorkin's MC using the Cruciatus Curse? Or did > I dream that? > > www.redmeat.com > > Peg: Nope, you didn't dream it. In GoF, Chapter 1, LV tells Peter, ". . . But Memory Charms can be broken by a powerful wizard, as I proved when I questioned her." (p. 12, U.S. hardback ed.). Before that (p. 11) LV also stated, "I killed Bertha because I had to. She was fit for nothing after my questioning, quite useless." Also, when the Priori Incantatem effect takes place in the graveyard, LV's wand emits screams after Bertha's shade (or whatever) appeared. Although it's never stated outright that he used the Cruciatus Curse, it seems extremely likely that he did. Peg > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From bkalb at learnlink.emory.edu Sat Mar 26 20:30:57 2005 From: bkalb at learnlink.emory.edu (bkalb1977) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:30:57 -0000 Subject: The barman in the Hog's Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126639 Stickbook wrote: > During a recent reread of OotP, this passage during the Hog's > Head scene caught my eye: > > I'd like to put forth the theory that the barman is (drum roll > please) Aberforth Dumbledore. Well spotted... this has been confirmed by JKR at the Edinburgh Book Festival: Q: Why is the barman of the Hog's Head vaguely familiar to Harry? Is he Dumbledore's brother? JKR Answer: Ooh?you are getting good. Why do you think that it is Aberforth? [Audience member: Various clues. He smells of goats and he looks a bit like Dumbledore]. I was quite proud of that clue. That is all that I am going to say. [Laughter]. Well yes, obviously. I like the goat clue?I sniggered to myself about that one. bk From bree4378 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 20:38:01 2005 From: bree4378 at yahoo.com (Sabrina) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:38:01 -0000 Subject: Ronald Billius Weasley/ HBP possibility Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126640 Hans wrote: > I'd also like to remind you, and especially tell new members, about the "pricking of my thumbs" when I see the trio's initials, whose order Jo never varies: H.R.H.== His Royal Highness. And their "magical blood": Harry - ? blood, Ron - full blood, Hermione no magical blood. Together: 1? out of 3. The Half Blood Prince? The mind boggles. < Sabrina wrote: I found this part of your post very interesting. Ron is pureblood, Harry half blood, and Hermione NO (magical) blood. I believed that a half blood is someone with 1 muggle parent and one wizard/witch parent. This was shown when Seamus describes himself. The trio together make up 1.5 blood. If they totaled 0.5 blood, I would of thought you solved it. Instead, I got to thinking.... Is Hermione considered a witch? If she were to marry and a muggle, would their child be considered a half-blood, although she has "no magical blood?" The reason I'm asking is because I got to thinking about J.Rowling's hints of a romance between Ron and Hermione. Ron being pureblood, and Hermione being of no (magical) blood, would that make a future child of their's a Half-Blood? If so, is it possible that the HBP could be a reference to a future someone? A.k.a the son of Ron and Hermione? From bkalb at learnlink.emory.edu Sat Mar 26 20:42:35 2005 From: bkalb at learnlink.emory.edu (bkalb1977) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:42:35 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126641 This point has probably been brought up before... but I just realized it so thought I'd post. When JKR released the three chapter titles, I had a suspicion that Felix Felicis was probably going to be the new DADA teacher. Didn't think much more about it until I realized that what caught my eye initially was the chapter #- "Chapter 14- Felix Felicis". In GOF and OOP, the DADA have chapters named after them. In GOF- "Chapter 13- Mad-Eye Moody" and in OOP "Chapter 12- Professor Umbridge". So around Chapter 14 might be an ideal time to put the new DADA teacher in a chapter title. bk From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 22:13:54 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:13:54 -0000 Subject: House elves and slavery Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126642 I just have to put in my oar here. What is slavish about house work? It's a very noble art. Work in general ought to be more highly valued in our society. I work in a hospital and have often thought that the housekeepers and aids ought to be paid nearly as much as the nurses, etc. (No, I'm not either.) What would happen to us all if there was no one to clean up? House elves ought to be highly valued and very well treated. I think it's a very noble profession. Bonnie From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 26 22:40:07 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:40:07 -0000 Subject: House elves and slavery + WW keeping in shape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126643 Further on my last post: Not only is housekeeping a noble art, it's the elves who need to free the Wizards so that they can enjoy the pleasures of a good day's work also. What does the WW do to keep in shape anyway? If they aren't careful they are all going to start looking like Umbridge. So I say, let's free the wizards. :) Bonnie From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 00:22:24 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:22:24 -0000 Subject: House Elves & Slavery - minus Goblin thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126644 > bboyminn: > > Did I read this sentence correctly- > "You may be right IF indeed the flaw is in the /elves/ nature." > > Did you mean 'elves nature' or 'wizards nature'? I'm not sure it will > change my response, just wonder if it was a typo. a_svirn: I meant elves nature. > bboyminn: > > I stand firmly on the position that it IS the natural normal nature of > House-elves to serve humans. That really is their true /natural/ > nature. On that we seem to disagree. > > But I will agree with your implication that the current manifestation > of the House-elves servitude did not evolve without help. Wizard have > indeed perverted the good nature of House-Elves, but NOT by convincing > them that they have to be 'slaves'. a_svirn: You know, Steve, you have a real gift for understatements. No, I don't believe that wizards CONVINCED elves to be slaves either. I rather think that they have ruthlessly forced elves to their bidding. That is what DD told Harry, and I imagine he knew what he was about. > bboyminn: The pervertion is in House-Elves > believing they have to take everything a wizard dishes out. That they > have to accept abuse, as well as dishonor and disrespect by their > 'masters'. > > I am also rejecting the human notion of /slavery/ with respect to the > House-elves. If you abuse and mistreat your kids, are they then by > that action slaves? If you make them work around the house, are they > by that action then slaves? We can say kids are different because they > have free will, but if they truly have free will then why don't they > reject the abuse and /forced/ labor? You can counter that by saying > that they are free to leave, but are they? Why do you suppose kids > stay in abusive situation? Because they are bound by their family > connection, and are for the most part, completely dependant on their > parents. > > I admit that illustration is somewhat limited in reflecting the > House-Elves situation. a_svirn: You reject the term "slaves" because elves are not human by nature, but your example is not any better, since it's concerned with human adults and human kids. I believe that slaves are a closer analogy though than children. After all one can treat children with either kindness or severity bordering on abuse, but the ultimate goal of any such exercise is to mould them into adults which is to say equals. When and where this goal is substituted for any other one the line between treating kids as kids and treating them as slaves is crossed. With elves on the other hand whether one treats them kindly or cruelly doesn't change the underlying assumption that they are inferior. > bboyminn: > If you look at the general mythology around various Helper-Elf > legends, you will see that they volunteer their services. They are not > slaves. Now JKR's Helper-Elves go a little beyond that in that they > make a bonded commitment of loyalty and service to the people they > serve; call those people masters if you will, but that doesn't make > House-Elves slaves. a_svirn: I might be wrong of course by doesn't the term "commitment" implies the idea of free will and choice? You seem to forget that house elves have neither. How come they enter into "voluntary servitude" then? Dobby was the only elf who did indeed enter into voluntary arrangement with DD, but 1) his previous situation was anything but voluntary servitude, 2) he's somewhat of an oddity among his kind, and his arrangement with DD cannot be described as servitude. It's employment. > bboyminn: > So the Elves enter into voluntary servitude. I firmly believe what > holds them there in service is not a force of magic or law, but the > potential violation of their core nature, and the shame and disgrace > that comes with it. That is what we are seeing in Winky, in here mind > she has violated her very essense of being, and now can not face the > shame and disgrace of having done so. a_svirn: I agree with you about Winky's felling herself disgraced. But I believe that this is a direct result of wizards' tampering with elves `core nature' or mind or whatever you'd like to call it. It's a result of enchantments DD has mentioned AND decades (or, perhaps centuries) of training. That is why I am saying that Hermione cannot really FREE elves, since in their minds they are still bound to their masters even after they are given clothes. > bboyminn: > I guess my really point in response to your 'evolution' comment, is > that I agree wizards have corrupted and influenced that core nature of > elves, not with regard to their desire to serve, but with regard to > the Elves accepting their ill treatment. Wizard have exploited and > even re-enforced the fierce honor and loyalty of Elves, preying on and > further re-enforcing their shame so that wizards could maintain their > power over the Elves. > > It is in the normal nature of elves to serve, but it is not in the > normal nature of any species to be mistreated and abused. In short, > they DO really like the service, but they hate the abuse. As much as > they hate the abuse, their sense of honor and loyalty will not let > them leave. > > BUT and this is a big BUT, if the Elves do choose to leave their > Master and their Master's abuse, there is nothing in magic or law that > can stop them. The only tool or weapon Masters have against the elves > is shame, and if the elves are no longer buying in to that, then the > Masters can't hold them. (my speculation) a_svirn: I believe you are wrong here. DD said distinctly that Kreacher and Dobby had been forced to their masters' bidding by the enchantments of their kind. And since elves are not even allowed wands under the current wizarding law, I believe there are quite a few regulations that prevent them from doing anything their "real normal nature" might prompt them to do. > bboyminn: > I admit that the two of us are splitting hairs and are separated by a > very fine line. The reason I reject the use of the word 'slavery' even > though the books and the elves themselves use the term 'enslavement' > to refer to their service, is because we are not dealing with slavery > in a human context. Human slaves are either kidnapped or conquered, > and forced into slavery, and held against their will for generations. > The penalty for violation of service is death. > > Elves on the other hand eagerly seek out service, and are unhappy when > it is not available. Seeking out service is the first thing Dobby did > upon being freed. Remember the penalty to an Elf for violation of > service is not death, but freedom. That tells you a lot about the > arrangement. a_svirn: It does indeed. It makes elves situation even worse than human enslavement, because elves are violated not only physically, but also mentally. I think that in making elves actually reject freedom and regard it as the ultimate punishment JKR tries to demonstrate metaphorically how such arrangements corrupt one's very nature and judgment. It's is hardly a secret that in our world "hereditary" slaves more often that not are afraid of freedom and cannot imagine being their own masters. Only in their case it's the result of their upbringing while elves suffer from upbringing AND magic. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 00:24:26 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:24:26 -0000 Subject: House elves and slavery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126645 Bonnie: I just have to put in my oar here. What is slavish about house work? It's a very noble art. Work in general ought to be more highly valued in our society. I work in a hospital and have often thought that the housekeepers and aids ought to be paid nearly as much as the nurses, etc. (No, I'm not either.) What would happen to us all if there was no one to clean up? House elves ought to be highly valued and very well treated. I think it's a very noble profession. Alla: Absolutely, housework IS a noble profession, just as any work. The point I am trying to make is that I don't see enough convincinng evidence ( enough to convince me, of course) in the text that Elves always wanted to do housework ONLY, would continue to do housework ONLY, IF they were not enslaved. I am not sure if I think that they are brainwashed, probably not, since Dobby is indeed a very good example of that, but I am not sure if House elves current situation is their own doing only. Whatever elves choose at the end, is very satisfactory with me, I just want them to be able to make informed choice, that is all. "Dobby likes work, but he wants to wear clothes and he wants to be paid, Harry Potter... Dobby likes being free" - GoF, p.378, paperback. JMO, Alla From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Sun Mar 27 01:37:28 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:37:28 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Felix Felicis Message-ID: <1a3.304a185f.2f776858@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126646 In a message dated 3/26/2005 4:09:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, bkalb at learnlink.emory.edu writes: When JKR released the three chapter titles, I had a suspicion that Felix Felicis was the new DADA teacher. what caught my eye initially was the chapter #- "Chapter 14- Felix Felicis". In GOF and OOP, the DADA have chapters named after them. In GOF- "Chapter 13- Mad-Eye Moody" and in OOP "Chapter 12- Professor Umbridge". So around Chapter 14 might be an ideal time to put the new DADA teacher in a chapter title. bk ******************************************* Chancie: While it is true that the DADA teachers have had chapters named after them, the MoM has too. Chapter 14 in CoS is named after Fudge. We know that we will have a new MoM, so Felix Felicis could possibly be the new MoM as well... Any takers? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 01:40:18 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 01:40:18 -0000 Subject: House elves and slavery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126647 Alla wrote: Absolutely, housework IS a noble profession, just as any work. The point I am trying to make is that I don't see enough convincinng evidence ( enough to convince me, of course) in the text that Elves always wanted to do housework ONLY, would continue to do housework ONLY, IF they were not enslaved. I am not sure if I think that they are brainwashed, probably not, since Dobby is indeed a very good example of that, but I am not sure if House elves current situation is their own doing only. Whatever elves choose at the end, is very satisfactory with me, I just want them to be able to make informed choice, that is all. "Dobby likes work, but he wants to wear clothes and he wants to be paid, Harry Potter... Dobby likes being free" - GoF, p.378, paperback. vmonte responds: I see what your saying Alla. Perhaps "time" has brainwashed elves into believing that their rightful place in life is serving humans. (And I do believe that wizards are taking advantage of the elves, often treating them like slaves.) I believe it's the bad treatment by the wizards that has corrupted the way elves perceive themselves. Winky and Kreecher are examples of what long term abuse and prejudice can do to a being. What is also disturbing to me is this: If the elf culture thinks that serving humans is a noble profession, why do they then have a method in which they can be freed from servitude? What is it with the whole thing about wearing filthy rags, and not being allowed new clothing? This is disturbing. If elf tradition is passed down orally, perhaps something important about their past has been forgotten? Maybe they were once a mighty race but they've forgotten their past. With all the hidden power elves have, I'm now starting to wonder Alla if they were always under the rule of wizards? Vivian From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 01:56:34 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:56:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The curious silver instruments In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050327015635.97530.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126648 --- bbkkyy55 wrote: > from OOP chapter 22 > "The instrument tinkled into life at once with rhythmic clinking > noises. Tiny puffs of pale green smoke issued from the minuscule > silver tube at the top. Dumbledore watched the smoke closely, his > brow furrowed, and after a few seconds, the tiny puffs became a > steady stream of smoke that thickened and coiled in the air....A > serpent's head grew out of the end of it, opening its mouth wide. > Harry wondered whether the instrument was confirming his story: He > looked eagerly at Dumbledore for a sign that he was right, but > Dumbledore did not look up. > 'Naturally, naturally,' murmured Dumbledore apparently to > himself, > still observing the stream of smoke without the slightest sign of > surprise. 'But in essence divided?' > Harry could make neither head nor tail of this question. The > smoke serpent, however, split itself instantly into two snakes, > both > coiling and undulating in the dark air. With a look of grim > satisfaction Dumbledore gave the instrument another gentle tap with > his wand: The clinking noise slowed and died, and the smoke > serpents grew faint, became a formless haze, and vanished. > Dumbledore replaced the instrument upon its spindly little > table;....." > > What is this all about? Will we learn more in books 6 and 7? Does > anyone have any ideas? I assume that the two smokey serpents are somehow Voldemort and Harry and that Dumbledore is confirming that Harry is still Harry and not taken over or possessed by Voldemort (as Moody mentions in St. Mungos when they all visit Mr. Weasley). You'll notice that Dumbledore doesn't do anything to act on Harry's story until AFTER he's consulted the little silver instrument. After he confirms that Voldemort is not speaking through Harry with a false story that might be a trap for the Order, only then does Dumbledore arrange for the portraits to find Arthur and get him help. I think there's been a growing fear on Dumbledore's (and Snape's) part since COS that the mental connection between Harry and Voldemort could go very toxic someday. This - imo - is what the instrument DOES; how it actually WORKS, well it's magic after all. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From andie1 at earthlink.net Sun Mar 27 02:37:29 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:37:29 -0000 Subject: McClaggan Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126649 JKR mentioned at the Edinburgh Book Festival after the release of OoP that she would be using the name McClaggan in Book Six because it was a name she had heard recently and decided to include it in the series. First, I thought that it was bound to be a "nobody" character, but now I'm not sure. JK might have assumed we would think that... :) She just loves those surprises. After all, there was that brief mention of the "Chamber Pot Room" and look how important that room turned out to be in OoP! So, with that said, what do we think of this name - McClaggan... New DADA teacher? Student? DE that we haven't heard of before? I'd love to see your thoughts on the matter. grindie From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Sun Mar 27 04:07:29 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:07:29 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ronald Billius Weasley/ HBP possibility Message-ID: <1e2.388cdecf.2f778b81@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126650 In a message dated 3/26/2005 4:05:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, bree4378 at yahoo.com writes: Sabrina wrote: Is Hermione considered a witch? If she were to marry and a muggle, would their child be considered a half-blood, although she has "no magical blood?" ************************************* Chancie: Yes, Hermione possesses the magical "gene" so she is considered a witch. the ability to do magic determines if your a witch/wizard, if not even Squibs would be witches/wizards, because of their family. IMO if Hermione was to marry a muggle (I personally see her with Ron, but that's another post =) ) and have a child, the child would have 1/2 magical blood, and 1/2 muggle blood, so I think that would make the child half blood regardless of whether or not the child could do magic. ****************************************************** Sabrina wrote: The reason I'm asking is because I got to thinking about J.Rowling's hints of a romance between Ron and Hermione. Ron being pureblood, and Hermione being of no (magical) blood, would that make a future child of their's a Half-Blood? If so, is it possible that the HBP could be a reference to a future someone? A.k.a the son of Ron and Hermione? ******************************************************* Chancie again: I think that this can be answered simply by looking at Harry. He had one muggle born parent, and one pure blood parent. He's considered half blood regardless of the fact that Lily was witch. I wouldn't see Ron and Hermione's child being any different. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Mar 27 06:49:11 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 06:49:11 -0000 Subject: The curious silver instruments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126651 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bbkkyy55" wrote: Bonnie: > I've been interested in the WW machinery. Let's see, there's the > interesting clocks, DD's watch and the Weasleys' clock. There's the WW cars that seem to hold much more than expected and can move through traffic magically. (I want one.) There's the sneakascopes and the various mirrors (foe glass, mirror of Erised, the one Sirius gave Harry). Of course there's wands and radios and pensives. I'm sure I've missed a lot. > > You probably have discussed this, but perhaps some of you oldtimers > can enlighten us newcomers. The ones that interest me most currently > are the fragile silver instruments in DD's office. > What is this all about? Will we learn more in books 6 and 7? Does > anyone have any ideas? Geoff: I began a thread on this very topic way back at message 79231 entitled "The Smoke Serpent" and there were several replies to the post which you might find to be of interest. In case you haven't seen the comments from various contributors on the new YIS (Yahoo Idiot System), to get to that message replace theexisting message number in the URL window at the top with the one you want. Happy hunting! From kking0731 at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 07:15:05 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 07:15:05 -0000 Subject: Ronald Billius Weasley/ HBP possibility In-Reply-To: <1e2.388cdecf.2f778b81@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, chnc1024 at A... wrote: > In a message dated 3/26/2005 4:05:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, > bree4378 at y... writes: > > Sabrina wrote: > > Is Hermione considered a witch? If she were to marry and a muggle, > would their child be considered a half-blood, although she has "no > magical blood?" > > > > ************************************* > > Chancie: > > Yes, Hermione possesses the magical "gene" so she is considered a witch. > the ability to do magic determines if your a witch/wizard, if not even Squibs > would be witches/wizards, because of their family. IMO if Hermione was > to marry a muggle (I personally see her with Ron, but that's another post =) > ) > and have a child, the child would have 1/2 magical blood, and 1/2 muggle > blood, so I think that would make the child half blood regardless of whether > or not the child could do magic. > > ****************************************************** > > Sabrina wrote: > > The reason I'm asking is because I got to thinking about J.Rowling's > hints of a romance between Ron and Hermione. Ron being pureblood, > and Hermione being of no (magical) blood, would that make a future child of > their's a Half-Blood? If so, is it possible that the HBP could be a > reference to a future someone? A.k.a the son of Ron and Hermione? > > ******************************************************* > > Chancie again: > > I think that this can be answered simply by looking at Harry. > He had one muggle born parent, and one pure blood parent. > He's considered half blood regardless of the fact that Lily was > witch. I wouldn't see Ron and Hermione's child being any different. Snow: Yes, but Tom Riddle alias Lord Voldemort has one magical parent and one "totally" non magical parent...what do you call him? I call him wanting! From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 27 07:51:54 2005 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (udder_pen_dragon) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:51:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle Money Exchange Rate? Link In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050327075154.50732.qmail@web25307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126653 Steve wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barb Fulton" wrote: > > snip > > > One Galleon = Five Pounds = Seven Dollars and fifty cents. > > > > The conversion between Pound and Dollar is 1.5, so ?5 x 1.5 = $7.50 > > snip examples of what things cost > > > Steve/bboyminn > Barb now: > > ...In ... FBaWtFT, here is the following quote "Comic Relief U.K. > has raised over $250 million since 1985 (that's also ?174 million > , or 34 million... Galleons,...). > > ..., I figured a Galleon to be worth about $7.35. ... > > -Barb Sorry for the short post. Here is a link to a previous discussion, with the G:?:$ cost of several items, and a link to the HP-Lexicon's Galleon/Pound/Dollar currency converter. It shows the Galleon currently at $7.33. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/118127 Steve/bboyminn UdderPD adding his two pence worth I accept and normally use ?5 = 1 Galleon (I useually allow a slight variation in Goblin exchange rates . But looking at the International exchange rates this morning I find ?1 = $1.8 which makes 1Galleon = $9.00 TTFN UdderPD Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From captivity at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 01:35:32 2005 From: captivity at gmail.com (-p) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:35:32 -0500 Subject: on veritaserum and being paranoid and suspicious In-Reply-To: <1111881491.16304.96631.m20@yahoogroups.com> References: <1111881491.16304.96631.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126654 Is Veritaserum more or less reliable than Sodium Pentathol? Am I wrong to think that it is a cure-all for situations in which one party or anoher is not believed to be telling the truth? In situations such as when Harry and his crew are swearing this or that about the Dark Lord, why wasn't anyone willing to administer Veritaserum to ensure the truth? The use of the serum on Crouch Jr makes me think that it is a trusted method. Umbridge's willingness to use it on Harry also makes me curious as to why the kids never dream of using it on character's whom they feel untrustworthy. I began thinking about this because I desired to choke some down Winky's throat at the World Cup in GoF. Her behavior seemed so incongruous that I think that someone at the Cup should have been suspicious enough to try it. I can see the urge for those surrounding Crouch Sr to trust him unconditionally - and his show of anger was tell-tale of something suspicious to all parties involved I believe... p From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 02:26:58 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:26:58 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126655 > vmonte responds: > I think that the HBP is a person, not a drink, as some other posters > believe. I also think that it's Godric Gryffindor. Mostly because > it's time that we get the back-story between the break up of SS and > GG. And also because Godric literally means: Rules with God. It's > about time we see the power behind the Order. We already know how DEs > came about, I want to know more about how the Order came to be-- > because I think that it is a lot older than we've been led to > believe. > > Is GG still alive? Or is he a penseive memory? Who knows? I keep > thinking that Flamel was more that just DD's chemistry partner. And > he lived a long life too. Is/was Flamel really GG? How did Flamel > and Dumbledore meet? Was Flamel the previous leader of the Order? If > he is/was GG it would explain why DD is now in possession of GG's > sword. Did Flamel train DD to be the next Order leader? And is > Dumbledore training Harry to be the next leader? > Chys: I do think he's a person, not a potion. If it's a potion, then it has to effect a person, but it makes no sense to me should that be the case. I am more and more liking the idea that it's GG, but I have nothing to back it other than the lack of knowledge of Hogwarts past, and precious events which could affect the future. I don't know how that would have altered the relationship between GG and SS though. You would think, SOMEWHERE, there would be PORTRAITS of the founders, right? I mean, really.... I'd even settle for one of them all sitting around a table playing poker. *_* The order... is supposed to hunt down Voldemort from what I gather in book 5, but perhaps they had a purpose before that? (They were a well established group, right? Who formed them? I don't know if Flamel had anything to do with it, they sound like separate issues.) I don't know enough about it to say, but it might have something to do with Merlin. I think the sword of GG could have been passed down through the Headmasters, since it's seemingly a school artifact, such as the sorting hat? I doubt that Flamel is GG, they are two different characters, and it would be anti-climactic if we find out the now deceased Flamel (I stand by this, he's gone, as is stated in book 1, he's gotten his affairs in order and is letting go.) *ahem* Should we find that Flamel is actually GG, and Harry never got to meet him (or whatever plot device follows,) it wouldn't help the plot any IMO, and sounds like something an editor would cut out or have altered for the sake of the story. It's non-essential, so I don't see it as being true. I think Flamel and DD have in common the potions/alchemy idea. DD was famous for the 12 uses of the Dragons blood correct? Flamel, obviously, the PS/SS. Perhaps they were friends from childhood or something simple like that? About the book covers; haven't they, in the past, always depicted scenes direct from the book? So what of the potion book that's shown in the adult version, and the 'DD and Harry in a ring of fire' version? (Is that a credible version? I haven't researched.) I saw the version where on scholastic.com, DD and Harry seem to be looking into a cauldron or a pensieve of sorts.... Perhaps you can somehow FIND the HBP with a POTION? (Even so, why would DD need Harry for that, eh?) Chys From thursdaymorning at outgun.com Sun Mar 27 02:53:54 2005 From: thursdaymorning at outgun.com (thursday morning) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:53:54 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition Message-ID: <20050327025354.4E66C23CFE@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126656 > Hannah: > Now that is a very interesting idea. I personally think that he > gave the diary to Ginny because he was hoping she'd be caught and > thus he could use that as a way to discredit Arthur and stop the > Muggle Protection Act. Rather a win-win scenario for LM. > The argument against his using the diary as a way to show LV that he > still supported him would be why Lucius never brought it up in the > graveyard scene. There's LV, berating Lucius for his lack of > loyalty, and not once does Malfoy say; 'but master, I planted the > diary into Hogwarts!' I have to disagree here. If my mother were berating me for-well, pretty much anything and I'd said *anything* other then 'yes, ma'am' or 'no ma'am' I'd be accused of talking back and gotten a good smack for it at the least. Avery had already been crucio'd. I consider LM to have been incredibly foolish for saying as much as he did. Perhaps if LV had not interrupted him he would have babbled on and mentioned the diary. I admit there is no canon evidence for my theory but I don't think this scene can be used against it either. Unless I'm missing something? > > I do think Dobby acted of his own volition, having heard what Lucius > planned, and fearing that Harry would be endangered. Whether there > was an actual specific threat to Harry, or whether Dobby was just > concerned that he'd be hurt accidentally, I don't know. But what I don't understand is *why* Dobby would do this. Yes, Dobby is apparently a *very* unusual house elf but this just seems so far out of house elf norm. This wasn't an impulsive act. Dobby was stopping Harry's mail all summer. He continued interferring all the way thru the school year. It seems to me so far out from the norm that I started looking for options, hence the 'LM sent Dobby' theory. I would be very interested to see more complete arguments for the 'Dobby acts on his own' theory. Thank you for the feedback, Hannah. I hope to hear more. Thursday -- _______________________________________________ Outgun.com free e-mail @ www.outgun.com Check out our Premium services - POP3 downloading, e-mail forwarding, and 25MB mailboxes! Powered by Outblaze From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 03:04:17 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 03:04:17 -0000 Subject: Founders in DD's Office/Necromancy & Chaos Magick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126657 > Tonks: >> Now I know that JKR does not want to lead anyone, child or > otherwise, to the Dark side, but I still wonder if this portrait > thing isn't a form of Necromancy. > > For those here who may not be aware of this so called Dark Art, let > me explain. Necromancy is where a wizard calls the spirits of the > other world. They can be the dead or some form of spirit that lives > only on the other side of the veil. They are called demons, but not > in the Jewish/Christian sense of the word. The wizard draws a circle > around himself with protective symbols around it so that the demon > cannot hurt him. Then he calls the demon to do his bidding, often > transmitting messages and gathering information. I really don't > know a lot about this, but I have a very old *Wizard* friend that > does. ;-) > > So while Necromancy is often thought of as a Dark Art (the demon has > no free choice), if the former Headmasters were given a choice at > one point and made a vow to be used by the current Headmaster, then > DD could engage in this practice. But I think if JKR was using this > bit of Wizardry she would hide it very carefully. > > This also can be a clue as to why pictures cannot be used but > portraits can. Maybe there is something of the subject (lock of > hair, finger nail, blood, etc.) in the portrait that makes the > subject part of their own portrait in a way that they would not be > in a picture. And in this way the portrait can be used in much the > same way as the Necromancer would use the demon. > > Tonks_op Chys: It's popular (At least in several HP fics I have read,) That Ravenclaw has something to do with Necromancy because of the RAVEN subject, involving death and such. Is there any Canon to back this up? The ring and demon summoning sounds like chaos magic to me. (Chaos being simply a collection of many types of diverse magicks all in one, as far as I can tell. I'm not that into it as to know all the forms and terminology yet, only a little here and there. It doesn't seem to requre that much of a commitment, now that I think of it- You can change your religion on a dime with this, should you so desire to pray to another 'god' for any purpose. ^_^;) Perhaps the subjects of the portraits were still alive when the portraits were created and they simply 'charged' them with their own energy, rather than having their blood in the paint? (Which is also possible, I'd assume.) Seeing as it's a world of true magic, I don't see how this wouldn't be possible. (For those who don't know of the chaos magic IRL, it's just like giving -thesubject- a part of yourself so that it can work for your will. 'Sigils' can be used this way, charged in various fashions to perform for the will of the creator and 'charge' something into effect. You could use it as a chant to simply change your mood and meditate before an important event ie- 'I will get the job, I will get the job' .... but getting your sibling to wash the dishes for you seems to be the most popular [and surprisingly effective!!] method of Sigil use in my house, anyway....) Or perhaps they are ancient Servitors of some fashion, summoned by the founders and taking the form of a portrait's subject, which would explain why they serve the Headmasters and current Headmaster only? Ah, I don't know, just wondering. Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 03:30:25 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 03:30:25 -0000 Subject: Ronald Billius Weasley/ HBP possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126658 > Sabrina wrote: > > > The reason I'm asking is because I got to thinking about J.Rowling's > hints of a romance between Ron and Hermione. Ron being pureblood, > and Hermione being of no (magical) blood, would that make a future child of their's a Half-Blood? If so, is it possible that the HBP could be a reference to a future someone? A.k.a the son of Ron and Hermione? Chys: Oh, this makes sense, but I do think the potion option shouldn't be abandoned. Perhaps, like a Pensieve can see the past in a memory, a potion (NOT the HBP TITLED potion, just a special potion....) would be used to see a specific person from the future/past? Maybe a memory not yet created? If HBP is not GG, this descendant of Ron & Hermione is a good example. I hadn't thought of it before, but she's been building them up as a couple, so perhaps something will come of it. Chys From thursdaymorning at outgun.com Sun Mar 27 03:46:21 2005 From: thursdaymorning at outgun.com (thursday morning) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:46:21 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition Message-ID: <20050327034621.9EDDB21AFF9@ws5-6.us4.outblaze.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126659 > Very true, but we should remember that the main impetus for Lucius to > get rid of a lot of things he happened to have around the house was > that the Ministry was conducting raids and searches and therefore > Lucius was prudently getting...questionable...artefacts out of the > manor. Riddle's diary was a special case; it couldn't be sold > because it was possible to "activate" it and therefore since > something had to be done with it, the best option would have been to > get it into Hogwarts where it could wreck havoc - well away from > Wiltshire. > > So the main impetus for getting rid of the diary was to get it out of > Malfoy manor before the Arthur Weasleys of the MoM could find it. > There was no call from Voldemort to "plant" the diary on someone. > Had the MoM not got too close for comfort, there's no reason to > suspect the diary wouldn't still be in the Malfoy family vault, > collecting dust. I agree, Magda, that without the threat of further ministry raids the diary would most likely still be sitting somewhere in Malfoy Manor. However, just as I don't believe there are ever just two sides to anything, I also suspect there's rarely only one reason for doing something - esp when you're dealing with someone like Lucius Malfoy, slippery Slytherin that he is. So he needed to get it out of the manor and he couldn't sell it. He could have found a way to destroy it. Burn it? Toss it down a lime pit? He could have simply 'misplaced' it in Knockturn Alley. Sending it to Howarts with Ginny Weasley: 1) got it out of Malfoy Manor, 2) created a possibility of discrediting Arthur Weasley, 3) created a possibility of discrediting Dumbledore, 4) gave himself something to show LM as 'proof' of his continued faithfulness (assuming he ever tells him), 5) his concern (not neccessarily *entirely* faked) for the students made him look good to Fudge, 6) got Dobby into Hogwarts (assuming he set up Dobby's part in the whole mess) and probably another half dozen reasons I'm not Slytherin enough to think of. As with my 'LM sent Dobby' theory, I don't think we have enough information to completely confirm any one theory so I don't feel I'm out of line to speculate on others. I'm not investing anything of myself in them - I'm just having fun. But I do want them to be well thought out - so the more opposing thoughts I get the more complete my theories become. BTW, I should probably say that, as certain as I am that Lucius Malfoy is constantly plotting and adapting his plots to new circumstances, I'm sure he never expected Harry to free Dobby. That had to have hacked him off big time. Thursday -- _______________________________________________ Outgun.com free e-mail @ www.outgun.com Check out our Premium services - POP3 downloading, e-mail forwarding, and 25MB mailboxes! Powered by Outblaze From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Sun Mar 27 04:43:48 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (someoneofsomeplace) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 04:43:48 -0000 Subject: How Did DD Get It? (Re: The curious silver instruments) In-Reply-To: <20050327015635.97530.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126660 Magda: > I assume that the two smokey serpents are somehow Voldemort and Harry > and that Dumbledore is confirming that Harry is still Harry and not > taken over or possessed by Voldemort... > I think there's been a growing fear on Dumbledore's (and Snape's) > part since COS that the mental connection between Harry and Voldemort > could go very toxic someday. > > This - imo - is what the instrument DOES; how it actually WORKS, well > it's magic after all. John: That seems the most obvious and logical explanation. My question is, how would DD have obtained such an instrument? Did he somehow capture a piece of Harry `n Voldy-shared-essence direct from the scene at GH? I'm still suspicious, you see; whenever JKR declines to shed light on something so conspicuous as this, something that even *Harry* wondered about, that would seem reason enough to suggest that she's up to her old tricks again; laying indecipherable clues about crucial, but as yet un-revealed, information. Anyone else want to throw up some suggestions out of left field here? John. From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 11:29:32 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:29:32 -0000 Subject: Thoughts Regarding HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > vmonte: > > Just some thoughts regarding HBP: > > The children are always taught magic or introduced to an object or > animal that will help them fight against Voldemort and the DEs. > > We know of two major things that are going to happen in book 6. > > 1. Hermione will be turning 17 a few weeks into the beginning of > sixth year. She will be able to apparate early in the year, Ron a few > months later, but Harry not until the summer. > > What comes to mind my mind is that Hermione and Ron are going to have > a strategic advantage over Harry and Neville (as well as Ginny and > Luna). Nope, I do not think so...my guess is that 1. Ron will wait so he can take apparition test/lessons with Haryy...Hermione will probably sit and pass exam and practical...but that is how she is...Ron(I'm suppositioning..will spend summer practicing for quiditch team... > > 2. Human Transfiguration will be taught to HRH this year. >(snip) doddiemoe here: If any of the trio can transform..it will be Ron...he needs a magical talent that will shine in his family...I doubt it wll be Hermione/Harry..This is something the twins, nor older bros.etc. could do....Ron began to come into his own towards the end of OOP....book six is where he will superceede his family.. > It also seems reasonable to assume that Harry (and probably Neville) > will be taking NEWT level Potions. (The adult book cover for Half- > Blood Prince seems to allude to this anyway.) I'm going to go out on > a limb and say that Harry and or Neville will excel in this class, > and that JKR will make Harry or Neville an even better "potions > master" than Snape. (snip) I KNOW Harry will continue studies in potions....I do not believe that snape will be the professor... However, due to prophecy...both Harry and Neville must receive the same education...(makes me wonder if snape doesn't have a prophecy of his own)... > Alas, Mr. Weasley will not be the Minister of Magic. So, will he > instead be killed along with his wife? With mom out of the picture no > one will stop the Weasley kids from joining the Order. Besides, I > think that Ron is going to show a lot of emotional/magical growth in > the next book. I agree, however I get a sneaky suspicion that if any of the Weasley's will hold elective office at this point in the books it will be Molly more than Arthur! If book 6 is more like part one of a two-part book, will book 6 end > in a cliffhanger? Will we think that a major character has died? How > will the Transfiguration classes come in to play in the final chapter > of book 6? I agree book six will have a cliffhanger ending...with Dumbledore dying!..I dd is an animagus...his animi would be a Phoenix...however no one like to "die" (physical death is painful---not fawkes, not dd, we have yet to hear if nick Flamel died... > We do not need to hear about Voldy's birth...we already know.. We know a great deal about about Voldy's birth than any other character in said books..My hypothesis: At the least, we need to hear more about the death, than the birth! Doddiemoemoe From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 12:58:57 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:58:57 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126663 Chys wrote: I think Flamel and DD have in common the potions/alchemy idea. DD was famous for the 12 uses of the Dragons blood correct? Flamel, obviously, the PS/SS. Perhaps they were friends from childhood or something simple like that? vmonte responds: You make some good points but according to the HP books DD is only 150 years old and Flamel was 666 in book 1. Childhood friends doesn't seem to apply unless DD is actually older than we've been told or perhaps DD is actually Flamel himself. Maybe thats why he is looking so tired lately, he's running out of the elixer. Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 13:19:10 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:19:10 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: <20050327025354.4E66C23CFE@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126664 Thursday wrote: But what I don't understand is *why* Dobby would do this. Yes, Dobby is apparently a *very* unusual house elf but this just seems so far out of house elf norm. This wasn't an impulsive act. Dobby was stopping Harry's mail all summer. He continued interferring all the way thru the school year. It seems to me so far out from the norm that I started looking for options, hence the 'LM sent Dobby' theory. I would be very interested to see more complete arguments for the 'Dobby acts on his own' theory. vmonte responds: I do not think that Lucius sent Dobby to Harry's house. I think that it is more likely that Dobby was once a house elf in the Potter home (Harry's grandparent's house). If this is true then Dobby is behaving in the proper way. He is treating Harry as though Harry was his master. When Harry gave Dobby his sock in CoS Dobby thanked Harry for setting him free. If Dobby still considered Harry's family as his masters then it makes sense. Also, Dobby may be different from the other elves because he may have met Lily who probably treated him respectfully. This is a different topic but I wonder if Luna is part elf? She reminds me of Dobby. She likes to wear unusual things like radishes for earings and butterbeer cap necklaces. She also has those large eyes that never blink... Vivian From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 13:25:03 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 05:25:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves and slavery In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050327132503.97123.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126665 --- vmonte wrote: > > What is also disturbing to me is this: > If the elf culture thinks that serving humans is a noble > profession, > why do they then have a method in which they can be freed from > servitude? What is it with the whole thing about wearing filthy > rags, and not being allowed new clothing? This is disturbing. Anyone else remember reading the Shoemaker and the Elves when they were little kids? It's a fairy tale about a shoemaker and his wife who are down on their luck and finally the shoemaker has just enough leather to make pair of shoes. He sets out the leather, intending to work on them in the morning and goes to bed. The next morning there's a brand new pair of beautiful shoes on the workbench - much finer than anything he could ever make - and the first customer who comes in buys them with a purse of gold. So he buys more leather and the same thing keeps happening every morning until the shoemaker and his wife are prosperous again. Now of course they're dying of curiosity about this and so one night they stay up and hide behind the curtains all night. Around midnight elves come into the shop and make the shoes; the elves are naked. The shoemaker and his wife decide to thank the elves so the shoemaker makes shoes for them and the wife makes elf-sized clothing, and that night they lay the gifts out instead of the usual leather. The elves are delighted with their gifts and depart, never returning again. (There's a little chant they sing which I can't quite remember but the implication is that they're freed from some kind of enchanted bondage.) The shoemaker and his wife however remain happy and prosperous for the rest of their days. Now I've always viewed JKR's image of house elves as coming from just this kind of folkloric background. The elves are required to provide service but if the humans they served didn't thank them in return then the servitude would continue until they did. And the requirement to serve seems to have been imposed on the elves through something other than humans; certainly the shoemaker didn't enchant the elves. It's not hard to imagine what would have been the fate of those elves if the shoemaker had been unworthy of the generosity, or if his son or daughter were less honorable. Those elves would have been stuck there until they were let go. So too would JKR's house elves be trapped in a continuous servitude loop until after hundreds of generations the whole thing had been perverted into a master/slave relationship. Note that at no time in the shoemaker story is work denigrated; the shoes the elves make are much better in quality than anything the shoemaker could produce. The implication is that the elves are pretty hot stuff if they really chose to compete with human shoemakers. I really think this is one area where JKR as a Brit didn't appreciate the connotations of elven servitude or slavery for a North American audience who would immediately imagine a gone-with-the-wind-civil-war-jim-crow kind of situation without the folkloric cultural background that Europeans might more readily assume. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 13:27:26 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:27:26 -0000 Subject: How Did DD Get It? (Re: The curious silver instruments) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126666 John wrote: That seems the most obvious and logical explanation. My question is, how would DD have obtained such an instrument? Did he somehow capture a piece of Harry `n Voldy-shared-essence direct from the scene at GH? I'm still suspicious, you see; whenever JKR declines to shed light on something so conspicuous as this, something that even *Harry* wondered about, that would seem reason enough to suggest that she's up to her old tricks again; laying indecipherable clues about crucial, but as yet un-revealed, information. Anyone else want to throw up some suggestions out of left field here? vmonte responds: Sure. There is a theory called the "Changeling!Harry" variant theory. You can read it at the Redhen website. http://www.redhen-publications.com/Changeling.html Vivian From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 13:33:50 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 05:33:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050327133350.51574.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126667 --- thursday morning wrote: > He could > have simply 'misplaced' it in Knockturn Alley. Sending it to > Howarts with Ginny Weasley: > > 1) got it out of Malfoy Manor, > 2) created a possibility of discrediting Arthur Weasley, > 3) created a possibility of discrediting Dumbledore, Very true and I agree with you; I would just add the caveat that the decision to give the diary to Ginny was a spur-of-the-moment decision because he was really, really angry with Arthur at the time. He wasn't scouring Diagon Ally looking for a likely Weasley to frame. > As with my 'LM sent Dobby' theory, I don't think we have enough > information to completely confirm any one theory so I don't feel > I'm out of line to speculate on others. > > Thursday I don't think LM sent Dobby. Dobby was too terrified and emotional all through COS for him to have been obeying his master's orders. It would also challenge our view of Dobby as an overall good guy character who we're expected to admire. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 13:55:33 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:55:33 -0000 Subject: House elves and slavery In-Reply-To: <20050327132503.97123.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126668 Magda wrote: Now I've always viewed JKR's image of house elves as coming from just this kind of folkloric background. The elves are required to provide service but if the humans they served didn't thank them in return then the servitude would continue until they did. And the requirement to serve seems to have been imposed on the elves through something other than humans; certainly the shoemaker didn't enchant the elves. It's not hard to imagine what would have been the fate of those elves if the shoemaker had been unworthy of the generosity, or if his son or daughter were less honorable. Those elves would have been stuck there until they were let go. So too would JKR's house elves be trapped in a continuous servitude loop until after hundreds of generations the whole thing had been perverted into a master/slave relationship. Note that at no time in the shoemaker story is work denigrated; the shoes the elves make are much better in quality than anything the shoemaker could produce. The implication is that the elves are pretty hot stuff if they really chose to compete with human shoemakers. I really think this is one area where JKR as a Brit didn't appreciate the connotations of elven servitude or slavery for a North American audience who would immediately imagine a gone-with-the-wind-civil-war-jim-crow kind of situation without the folkloric cultural background that Europeans might more readily assume. vmonte responds: Thank you Magda, I knew there was something familiar about JKR's elves. I also read the shoemaker story when I was a child. I agree with the idea that the relationship between elves and humans has become perverted over time into a master/slave relationship (completely through the fault of humans who have taken advantage of the elves). Time does not always heal all wounds; it sometimes makes you forget your history/past and eventually you start believing the ideology of the oppressor. You are also right that the idea of slavery is repulsive to me and that I immediately drew upon my knowledge of North American slavery and completely forgot the shoemaker story. Vivian From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 15:42:33 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 15:42:33 -0000 Subject: Elves and other creatures in folklore /Re: House elves and slavery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126669 Vmonte responds: Thank you Magda, I knew there was something familiar about JKR's elves. I also read the shoemaker story when I was a child. I agree with the idea that the relationship between elves and humans has become perverted over time into a master/slave relationship (completely through the fault of humans who have taken advantage of the elves). Time does not always heal all wounds; it sometimes makes you forget your history/past and eventually you start believing the ideology of the oppressor. You are also right that the idea of slavery is repulsive to me and that I immediately drew upon my knowledge of North American slavery >and completely forgot the shoemaker story. Alla: I am not sure. I mean I read shoemaker's story or similar one when I was a child too, but I am not exactly sure that those elves are exactly the same. I mean, sure, JKR draws from folklore, fairy tales, but are we sure that she does not change those creatures as they suit her? Take the vampires, for examples. Whether or not Snape will turn out to be the one, I think many people agree that vampire will show up eventually in the series, right? I don't think that that hypothetical vampire will follow all the rules of folklore. Take the centaurs. Yes, they seem to be pretty close to the centaurs from Greek myths, which I grew up with. Fantastic Beasts even acknowledge that centaurs originated in Greece, nevertheless I do find JKR's centaurs to be different because of their isolation from humans and some other things. So, going back to elves. I am MUCH more familiar with european fairy tales than I am with the history of slavery, nevertheless in my mind I cannot completely abandon the association with slavery. Although I agree that JKR probably had in mind "shoemaker story" and similar tales. JKR does not just talk about Elves' service, she makes sure to tell us about the details of their punishment, whether it is related to their service or not. I don't know... Hopefully we'll find out in the end what she had in mind. :) Just my opinion, Alla From eggplant9998 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 16:07:40 2005 From: eggplant9998 at yahoo.com (eggplant9998) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:07:40 -0000 Subject: Why did Scabbers hate Goyle (was: Why did Crookshanks 'hate' Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126670 In the first book, Scabbers AKA Peter Pettigrew AKA Wormtail, heroically defends Ron and Harry by biting Goyle on the finger. In light of what we learn about this particular rat in later books this act of nobility seems somewhat out of character. Why did he do it? Eggplant From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 16:43:52 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:43:52 -0000 Subject: Why did Scabbers hate Goyle (was: Why did Crookshanks 'hate' Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126671 eggplant9998 In the first book, Scabbers AKA Peter Pettigrew AKA Wormtail, heroically defends Ron and Harry by biting Goyle on the finger. In light of what we learn about this particular rat in later books this act of nobility seems somewhat out of character. Why did he do it? There are several possible explanations that I can see - 1 - As Sirius said in POA, Pettigrew always aligned with the stronger side. Although in this particular fight, Malfy/Goyle/Crabbe are physically stronger, they are on the wrong side of the WW in the big picture.. 2 - Pettigrew did not want to blow his cover as Ron's pet where he could hear all sorts of interesting info, especially with Harry Potter around, and 3 - Peter was living at the Weasley residence since Percy got him, and was privy to all sorts of info coming out of the Ministry (a great home for rats, it seems), giving further reason not to blow his cover. Tinglinger who has recently created a yahoo group for theories and plotlines for the Harry Potter series which you are welcome to check out at http:://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 16:49:58 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:49:58 -0000 Subject: How Did DD Get It? (Re: The curious silver instruments) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126672 John how would DD have obtained such an instrument? Did he somehow capture a piece of Harry `n Voldy-shared-essence direct from the scene at GH? Anyone else want to throw up some suggestions out of left field here? tinglinger How about buying one on Diagon alley? (SS ch 5 pg 72) "A low sounding hoot .....There were shops selling robes, shops selling tlelscopes, and strange silver instruments" I am certain that DD either invented them, got a discount, or did some overclocking on whatever he bought there. Tinglinger who has recently created a yahoo group for theories and plotlines for the Harry Potter series which you are welcome to check out at http:://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 17:46:20 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:46:20 -0000 Subject: Why did Scabbers hate Goyle (was: Why did Crookshanks 'hate' Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant9998" wrote: > > In the first book, Scabbers AKA Peter Pettigrew AKA Wormtail, > heroically defends Ron and Harry by biting Goyle on the finger. In > light of what we learn about this particular rat in later books this > act of nobility seems somewhat out of character. Why did he do it? > > Eggplant To ingratiate himself in Ron's good graces? Because Goyle's father cursed him once with something particularly unpleasant? Or maybe he was having a particularly nasty nightmare when Goyle came in and lashed out not being properly awake. a_svirn From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 18:01:40 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:01:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Scabbers hate Goyle (was: Why did Crookshanks 'hate' Scabbers In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050327180140.36129.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126674 wrote: > > In the first book, Scabbers AKA Peter Pettigrew AKA Wormtail, > heroically defends Ron and Harry by biting Goyle on the finger. > In light of what we learn about this particular rat in later books > this act of nobility seems somewhat out of character. Why did he do > it? Hey, NEVER touch a rat's chocolate frog heap. It really makes them mad. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bob.oliver at cox.net Sun Mar 27 22:31:00 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:31:00 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126675 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > wrote: > > > If one were to have read the other notes in this and various other > threads, I believe that Lupinlore was using 'others' to refer to > other people that he had spoken with and discussed these issues with > who were not necessarily members of this group. Some people here do > agree with him. The first person "I see no evidence" is also a > statement of personal intent, as I understand it. :) Exactly Nora. Thank you. I was not aware that for some reason people were reading "others" as "all others in the group." Those are two VERY different things. > > > That aside, can you show me any evidence that Harry has suffered > > long-term damage from being left with the Dursleys, or from any > > other decisions of Dumbledore's? > > This comes up every few months, but I thought I'd offer my > perspective upon it. > > I'd say the most important thing in the plot of the series is that > Harry has a very real and tangible reluctance to go to adults for > help, and this is a result of adults always having been unreliable in > his life. He doesn't tell Dumbledore what he's thinking and of his > odd experiences in CoS; he keeps mum about the quill in OotP out of a > desire to protect McGonagall. That kind of intense independence is > something that Harry takes to an extent which is distinctly unhealthy > (especially in the case of the quill). > > There's no denying Harry's bitterness when he states about Petunia > that "She never loved me!". He's reluctant to engage with the > Weasleys, who are happy to try to be surrogate parents. Harry is > reluctant to let anyone know about his scar pains in GoF, but does > open up about that to Sirius, indicating the rare position of trust > that Sirius holds for him. Harry's inwardness can be strength, but > it's also a weakness, and it seems generated in part by the loveless > home of the Dursleys. He is lucky to have the support of his friends > as much as he does, and he is distinctly less functional when his > support net is decreased (when Ron is not talking to him). That > points to someone who really must have that support, not someone to > whom it is really just the icing on the cake. I agree totally. I would add that I think this is likely to become an even greater issue in the upcoming books. But, I suppose we shall see. > > > > > I'm at a loss as to what you want Dumbledore to apologize *for,* > > and I'm quite sure that Harry would be astounded if he did any such > > thing. > > This is a different tack to take on it, but I think Dumbledore owes > Harry an apology (and admitted as such and done it, in part) for > keeping him in the dark. He should have come clean about any number > of things *long* before the end of the year (and the end of the > book), and he knows it. Knowledge could have prevented a lot of > worrying and trouble that exploded into disaster. Harry is > important, nay, essential--and as such has the right to both know and > learn for himself, and not merely rely upon the knowledge of the > Headmaster. Ignorance is not bliss, it breeds miscommunication and > ill-informed actions. > > It would probably be a further balm to Harry's soul to talk over the > circumstances of his being left at the Dursleys, and the depth of > Dumbledore's regret at taking such actions that he knew would result > in a stifled childhood bereft of many of the positive experiences > that Harry might have otherwise had. I can't imagine having grown up > without little birthday parties or the feeling of being wanted by my > parents. Once again, I agree totally. I also would add that Dumbledore himself, as nora has pointed out in other posts, practically admits that his age and experience have rendered him rather incapable of relating properly to the pain younger people often experience when faced with cruel circumstances. > > > Carol, who is a bit disconcerted by this new format and hopes that > > the List Elves can do something about the jumbled mess on the home > > page as it appears in Netscape 7.2 > > Sorry--no can do there, I think. I don't like this bizzare new > format better than anyone else does, but there doesn't seem to be a > way to opt out of it. We'll be up on what can be done about it, > though. > Lupinlore, who adds his voice to the general clamor of confusion and distaste over the new format. From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Sun Mar 27 22:47:31 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:47:31 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] What makes pureblood pure?? Re: Ron.../ HBP pos... Message-ID: <75.41f2ea45.2f789203@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126677 In a message dated 3/26/2005 11:16:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, kking0731 at gmail.com writes: > Chancie again: > > I think that this can be answered simply by looking at Harry. > He had one muggle born parent, and one pure blood parent. > He's considered half blood regardless of the fact that Lily was > witch. I wouldn't see Ron and Hermione's child being any different. Snow: Yes, but Tom Riddle alias Lord Voldemort has one magical parent and one "totally" non magical parent...what do you call him? I call him wanting! ********************************************************* Chancie: Well, I defiantly wouldn't consider him pure blood that's for sure! I think the WW kinda looks at pure/half/mud (excuse my language) blood in pretty basic terms. You are pure blood if your family can be traced back several generations being all magical.(much in the way that animals are considered pedigree) Mudblood (excuse me again) is coming out of a purely Muggle line of ancestors (at lest for a few generations). And it seems to me that Half blood is anything in between. Harry is considered half, but is actually more like 75% or something like that since his Mom though she was muggle born was a witch. Taking this into account (if you agree with my reasoning of course) I could see how some one could think of themselves as "pure blood" but actually discover that some where along the line they had a muggle or muggle born in the family. There fore making them half blood instead of pure. Any thoughts? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Sun Mar 27 23:01:35 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 18:01:35 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ronald Billius Weasley/ HBP possibility Message-ID: <46.662255f3.2f78954f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126678 In a message dated 3/27/2005 1:02:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, yami69hikari at yahoo.com writes: Sabrina wrote: > > > The reason I'm asking is because I got to thinking about J.Rowling's > hints of a romance between Ron and Hermione. Ron being pureblood, > and Hermione being of no (magical) blood, would that make a future child of their's a Half-Blood? If so, is it possible that the HBP could be a reference to a future someone? A.k.a the son of Ron and Hermione? Chys: Oh, this makes sense, but I do think the potion option shouldn't be abandoned. Perhaps, like a Pensieve can see the past in a memory, a potion (NOT the HBP TITLED potion, just a special potion....) would be used to see a specific person from the future/past? Maybe a memory not yet created? If HBP is not GG, this descendant of Ron & Hermione is a good example. I hadn't thought of it before, but she's been building them up as a couple, so perhaps something will come of it. Chys ****************************************************** Chancie: I like the idea of the HBP being Ron and Hermione's child, but I have one big reason of why it won't be. JKR has been keeping us in suspense over who will die. If Ron and Hermione's child comes from the future, then it will show that at least Ron and Hermione make it to adulthood and out of school. JKR has said that Hermione will not have a teenage pregnancy, so it would defiantly guarantee that they will both live. JKR isn't going to do that until book 7 when she gives us their follow up info. So I really don't see it happening, but it is a good thought. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 23:08:06 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:08:06 -0000 Subject: on veritaserum and being paranoid and suspicious In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, -p wrote: > > Is Veritaserum more or less reliable than Sodium Pentathol? Am I > wrong to think that it is a cure-all for situations in which one > party or another is not believed to be telling the truth? ... why > wasn't anyone willing to administer Veritaserum to ensure the truth? > bboyminn: I won't go into detail about Veritaserum because it's been cover before ...see... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/123764 Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 3:22 pm Subject: Veritaserum RANT Instead, let me put this question to you, you ask why the wizard world doesn't use artificial truth-telling devices (potions, spells, contraptions,...), but now ask yourself why don't we use them in the real world? Why don't we force every suspect to take Sodium Pentathol and be done with it? We could save ourselves a lot of money on long drawn out trials and appeal processes. Why because it is a violation of basic human rights? Some people in real life will insist on being questioned while connected to a lie detector machine in order to prove the truth of their words, but all it really proves is that they either have no stress response to lying, or the truly believe the lies they are telling. Though there is always a chance that they are really telling the truth. True is not absolute; it is greatly colored by perspective and preception. Harry at one time believed Sirius killed his parent, that is a truth because believes it to be true, but as we later find out, it is a /false/ truth. > -P (captivity) continues: > > The use of the serum on Crouch Jr makes me think that it is a > trusted method. bboyminn: Using Veritaserum on Crouch!Moody was probably unethical and likely violated some aspect of the law, however, in such an extreme situation it probably would have been overlooked. > -P (captivity) continues: > > Umbridge's willingness to use it on Harry also makes me curious as > to why the kids never dream of using it on character's whom > they feel untrustworthy. > bboyminn: Umbridge's actions were clearly against the law, and a gross voilation of human rights. She was not acting under an emergency life-and-death stituation. She was merely on a fishing expedition for information. I'm sure she felt her high position of power in the Ministry would insulate her from any legal or political fallout from her actions, but that in no way erases the wrongness of actions. As to Harry and Friends using it, this is a substance whose possession and use are strictly controlled by the Ministry of Magic. Snape's description makes brewing it sound like a long complex process. While Snape, a teacher and Master Potions maker, might be able to get away with brewing up a batch, for Harry to do so would have been unquestionably against the law (in my interpretation). > -P (captivity) continues: > ... I desired to choke some down Winky's throat at the World Cup > .... Her behavior seemed so incongruous that ... someone ... should > have been suspicious .... I can see ... those surrounding Crouch Sr > to trust him unconditionally - and his show of anger was tell-tale > of something suspicious to all parties involved I believe... > > p bboyminn: Winky was in a situation where she knew she was in serious legal trouble, but also in deep trouble with her Master, Crouch. That puts her in a very very high stress situation, and could easily have seemed a justification for her odd behavior and emotions. Crouch on the other hand doesn't seem like he is ever a very pleasant person, so I think expressions of anger on his part are casually accepted by those who work with him. Notice Crouch's blunt and hostile reactions toward Harry/Ron/Hermione before Winky is discovered. It seems commonly accepted that he is just not a pleasant guy. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 00:01:37 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 00:01:37 -0000 Subject: What makes pureblood pure?? Beauty and Blood In-Reply-To: <75.41f2ea45.2f789203@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, chnc1024 at A... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/26/2005 11:16:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, > kking0731 at g... writes: > Snow: > > Yes, but Tom Riddle alias Lord Voldemort has one magical parent and > one "totally" non magical parent...what do you call him? > > I call him wanting! > Chancie: > > ... I think the WW kinda looks at pure/half/mud... blood in pretty > basic terms. You are pure blood if your family can be traced back > several generations being all magical. ... Mudblood ... is coming > out of a purely Muggle line of ancestors .... And it seems to me > that Half blood is anything in between. > ... > > ...edited... > > Any thoughts? bboyminn: This is my take on the Nature of Blood- "Beauty and Blood are in the eye of the beholder." Half-blood, mud-blood, pure-blood are not absolute; they mean different things to different people. While Dumbledore refers to Harry as a Halfblood, that is in the context of making a point, I don't really think Dumbledore views Harry as a mixed or half-blood. Harry's parents were both magical beings, that makes Harry's blood fully magical, or what I call a fullblood. Seamus who is a mix of a full muggle and a full magical being, could accurately be called a half-blood. So, to a pureblood fanatic, only the purest of pure blood is good enough. All other non-pure blood is soiled, and therefore mudblood. To Joe average-wizard-on-the-street, you are either muggle, muggle-born, mixed, or magic; it's probably not a matter of blood at all. Since /mudblood/ implies soiled, dirty, contaminated blood, and demeans and insults the person at which it is directed, it is a term that would only be used as by the most fanatic Purebloods. Again, back to Joe Average in the street, he probably doesn't care about the mix of your blood other than general curiousity about your background. For the most part, you are either witch/wizard or you are not, and that's all that matters. I think few average wizards would refer to Harry as a halfblood because both his parents were magical. Though they would still have a general curiousity about his heritage. Any reference to Harry as a halfblood by the average wizard would simply be to establish the context of his heritage, and would carry no malice, ill-will, or intent to insult. This would occur in the same context that I usually know whether my friends are of Dutch, German, Russian, or Scandinavian heritage. It's a point of acquaintance and general discussion, but of little or no real consequence. So, in general, there is no hard and fast definition of Blood, it's a matter of personal opinion. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 00:07:17 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 00:07:17 -0000 Subject: Why did Scabbers hate Goyle (was: Why did Crookshanks 'hate' Scabbers In-Reply-To: <20050327180140.36129.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > wrote: > > > > ... Scabbers ..., heroically defends Ron and Harry by biting Goyle > > on the finger. ... Why did he do > > it? > > Hey, NEVER touch a rat's chocolate frog heap. It really makes them > mad. > > Magda bboyminn: I think a simple explanation is the best one, so I'm on the same track as Magda. Here is my simple explanation... "You never bite the hands that feeds you, but you do bite the hand that steals the food that feeds you." Just a (short) thought. Steve/bboyminn From mysticowl at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 01:14:27 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:14:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ronald Billius Weasley/ HBP possibility In-Reply-To: <46.662255f3.2f78954f@aol.com> References: <46.662255f3.2f78954f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126682 Chancie wrote: >and have a child, the child would have 1/2 magical blood, and 1/2 muggle >blood, so I think that would make the child half blood regardless of whether >or not the child could do magic. You yourself just said that a squib is not a witch/wizard regardless of their magical parentage, so why would a child who can't do magic, but who has one magical parent, be any different? I believe half-blood is a term that applies only to witches and wizards, not to squibs or muggles. The real question is for me, whether someone who has one magical and one muggle parent but can't do magic themselves is called a squib or a muggle? Alina. From elfundeb at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 02:19:57 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:19:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius and Pettigrew (WAS: House Elves and Slavery) In-Reply-To: References: <80f25c3a05032422315f6c2dd0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80f25c3a050327181937cc24dc@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126683 I sent this post 14 hours ago, but I'm trying again because the first one never made it to the list. Nora: > Question: do you find Harry's rejection of Draco on their first two > meetings to be personal or ideological? I find it, interestingly > enough, to be both. Harry rejects Draco because of the attitudes > Draco espouses, which manifest themselves in distinctly unpleasant > behavior which reminds Harry of Dudley. I agree with your take. Draco's attitude reminded him of Dudley, but he also made anti-muggleborn comments in Madam Malkin's shop. Harry, the son of a muggleborn witch, would be predisposed to find such comments offensive. With Sirius, it may well > have been the same thing. His near family is so unpleasant strongly > *because* of the ideology that they espouse. They make nasty > comments about other families who are inferior, they have strict > standards of decorum and ideas about what the proper place of > everyone is in the world, and they don't tolerate variation. Twelve- > year old Ron knows what "Mudblood" means, both as in what it stands > for--but he also has a definite idea about the approach to the world > and other people that those who use it have. It's not a word that a > nice, in the deep sense of the word, person uses. True, but Ron was raised in a very different kind of family. He learned at home that "Mudblood" prejudice was offensive. Sirius grew up in a family where the use of the word was evidently acceptable, and if the Blacks traveled only in like-minded circles, he would not have learned of other points of view until he arrived at Hogwarts. In fact, one backstory I've considered is that the trouble started between Sirius and his family when he arrived at Hogwarts and was sorted into Gryffindor, infuriating his family. > Pettigrew is a hole, but if we take your read on the Marauders' > dynamic, we end up with a lot of unexplained things. The first is > that your take is profoundly cynical, and I'm not sure that's the > direction that JKR is going to take their story--it takes a lot of > the potential pathos and meaning out of it if Peter was always this > complete toady. As well, if Peter was always such a tool, was he a > good enough actor yet committed enough to a scary cause to go into > the Order? Dumbledore must have approved of him. If JKR wants there to be pathos and meaning in Pettigrew's story, then she made a big mistake in her portrayal of Peter in the Pensieve scene. It's one thing for Transfiguration to be more difficult for him than the others, but his supposed inability to remember werewolf characteristics in the OWL exam is just silly and badly overplays his alleged inferiority. I think his accomplishments when Sirius hunted him down after Godric's Hollow establish that he was much more capable than Sirius (or McGonagall) gave him credit for. Dumbledore must have recognized more, but Dumbledore is known for giving changes to those whose talents are dismissed by others. I see no reason why he would not give Pettigrew a chance, in spite of the risks. > Sirius' failures fall into the pattern of the personal. He treats > Kreacher badly largely because Kreacher is a horrible reminder of the > past that he thought he had escaped forever, that he is now chained > to as his mental health degenerates. I think this is a reasonable explanation. My problem is that JKR gives us *two* different, and in my view, inconsistent explanations. He loathed Kreacher because he reminded him of the horrible home that he escaped, *and* he didn't hate Kreacher but simply regarded him as a servant unworthy of notice. > And, ummm, is Sirius alone to blame for the Secret Keeper switch? > Because I seem to remember two other people being involved in it as > well, and we all know who wore the pants in THAT family. (Can you > see Lily meekly acceding to something she isn't completely sure of > that involves the safety of herself and her family? I can't either.) I don't think Lily would have acceded to the plan because she thought Pettigrew was a "weak, talentless thing." As I wrote above, Pettigrew's character only makes sense if he is in fact smarter than JKR (and Sirius and McGonagall) seem to believe. Sirius, though, was a bad choice as secret keeper because he was the obvious choice. Debbie From catlady at wicca.net Mon Mar 28 02:31:19 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:31:19 -0000 Subject: Depression/Resilience/AK/Lucius/the first casuality/Hans-Pineal/Merlin/Squib Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126684 Alla wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/126360 << I remember some time ago somebody remarked that not paying much attention to psychological well-being of Harry and many others could simply be due to the fact that JKR endured many tough times in her life and emerged the winner. Maybe her philosophy is that anybody could beat whatever life throws at them by themselves, no outside help needed and she applies that philosophy to her characters >> When she had clinical depression, she had therapy for it. And I feel that I've read some interview where she stated that people should seek therapy if they need it, but I can't find that quote on Quick Quotes: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/070 0-hottype-solomon.htm "JK: Um, I was depressed, um, I'd say - would it be 1994 - I did suffer a spell of what I was told was clinical depression. I don't know, I was told it was. Yeah, I was depressed for a while. I'm not ashamed of that, plenty of people get depressed and I've never suffered from it again and I got through it. But the Dementors, uh, it's so hard to trace the origin of something. I saw these things and I knew what I wanted them to do, but they became, as I really thought about what they did, I realized that's what I was doing. That's normally the way it happens with me. I don't consciously think 'And now, I will create the personification of depression' but as I'm creating them I realize what I'm doing. You know, what unconsciously is going on. So they create an absence of feeling, which is my experience of depression. It is an absence " Btw I am always struck by the defensiveness of 'I'm not ashamed of that'. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/0700-nyt-cowell.htm "She acknowledged that she shook her depression in 1994 only with nine months of counseling, realizing later that her continued ability to write during this period was "a sign that I wasn't very badly depressed." Potioncat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126388 : << I couldn't buy the idea that Harry could be treated the way he was and still be a nice kid! although I'll accept Jen's professional opinion on the matter. >> I dunno if I accept Steve bboyminn's statement that wizards are as much more resilient than Muggles psychologically as physically -- they seem to be just as screwed up as us readers. I accept Jen's statement that sometimes it happens in Real Life, but I thought only if the child had not only natural resilience, but also some caring adult, such as supportive schoolteacher. That's why, as everyone knows by now, I agree with what 'someoneofsomeplace' John wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126411 : << BTW, I don't think we've by any means been given the full story on *that* particular matter?I adhere to that idea which's been floating around that Lily left some sort of loving imprint of herself in Harry's sub-conscience, so that he would hang on to the feeling that he had *some* worth as a human being, in spite of all that Durlsley-neglect. I also think DD knew about this. How else would Harry grow up to be the relatively healthy boy that we are introduced to in PS/SS? >> Shunra Shunrata wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126414 : << A question on the origin of Avada Kedavra - As far as I know from learning Aramaic the original phrase was "avra kedavra" - "I will create with my speech" - i.e. it is a charm/spell/whatever of *creation*. In HP I see it as "avada kedavra" which may be seen as coming from the root "avad" to be destroyed - "I will destroy with my speech", which is pretty much what the avada kedavra is supposed to do. Does anyone know if this modification is intentional on JKR's part or whether she was just mistaken on the original phrase? >> http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 "Does anyone know where avada kedavra came from? It is an ancient spell in Aramaic, and it is the original of abracadabra, which means "let the thing be destroyed". Originally, it was used to cure illness and the "thing" was the illness, but I decided to make it the "thing" as in the person standing in front of me. I take a lot of liberties with things like that. I twist them round and make them mine." a_svirn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126368 : << So why on earth would he pledge his loyalty to a dangerous power-hungry half-blood, who expects him to grovel and call him "Master"?! There is nothing to be gained from such an arrangement for Lucius and everything to loose. >> I figure Lucius's pledge of loyalty was a lie and his grovelling is play-acting. IMHO Before HP vanquished LV the first time, Lucius was planning to use LV to gain power for himself -- he figured that LV had powerful magic, charisma, and such to lead a successful rebellion/coup and crown himself Emperor of All Wizards, at which time The Emperor of All Wizards would do whatever his 'faithful' 'servant' and lapdog Lucius suggested that he do. Lucius is probably extremely irritated at the re-appearance of That Loser with some kind of control over him via the Dark Mark on his arm. I like to think that Tom Riddle was Lucius's godfather and had some influence over him growing up, which is why he is so *very* evil. I also like to think that Lucius plans to betray LV at some point when he has gotten all he can from LV, and that LV plans to demolish LM just before LM betrays him, and LM does not know that LV knows that LM plans to betray LV. The shocked surprise of the loser (I'm not sure which one would lose) will be so funny! Tinglinger wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126523 : << The Dark Lord always knows and is never forgiving. I fear that Luna's dad will be one of the first, if not THE first casualty of the Second War. >> Bertha Jorkins was the first casualty, Frank Bryce the second, and Cedric Diggory the third. Mr. Lovegood can't be earlier than fourth. Hans Andrea wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126560 : << I have mentioned that Dumbledore's office is sure to symbolise the pineal gland. This signifies to me that Bill personifies the crown chakra. >> I don't understand what connection there is between Dumbledore's office and Bill Weasley. I also don't understand why the chronological pattern was broken by putting Arthur & Molly (third eye chakra -- isn't third eye the pineal gland?) between Charlie (throat) and Bill (crown). Inkling wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126567 : << In fact Dumbledore himself is an archetype along the lines of Merlin and Gandalf, but he is also a literary creation of the modern age. We expect our wise old men to be compassionate and believably human as well as archetypal, and so we expect them to intervene in the hero's sufferings. (Merlin was not subject to these expectations and did all his shady arrangements around Arthur's birth apparently without a qualm). >> No one expected Merlin to be good, as in virtuous. That's why one, recently discussed, version of his story had him fathered by the Devil. We do expect Gandalf to be good, and I haven't heard anyone say that he isn't; why not? Alina wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/126682 : << The real question is for me, whether someone who has one magical and one muggle parent but can't do magic themselves is called a squib or a muggle? >> I'm sure the wizarding folk would *call* them a Muggle, but to me, if they inherited the wizarding genes but the genes didn't work right, they're a Squib, and if they didn't inherit the wizarding genes, they're a Muggle. The pattern of inheritance seen in canon works best with the wizarding genes being recessive (both the one you get from your mother and the one you get from your father have to be magic for you to be magic); the only way the child of a witch and wizard would lack magic is due to some kind of birth defect, a fortunately rare event, and we're been told that Squibs are rare. A person who inherited the magic version (m) from one parent and the Muggle (M) version from the other parent, but two Muggles who are heterozgous (mM) would have an average of one-quarter of their children be mm, Muggle-born witches and wizards. I think the real average is higher than the Mendelian average 1/4 because the m sperms have a speed or longevity advantage in getting to the egg and the m eggs might have an advantage in being ovulated, much the same way that magic people have advantages when it comes to surviving being dropped out of a window. Sometimes a recessive gene has some effect, even in one copy. Maybe the Mm Muggles are a bit more 'psychic' or a bit more fond of fantasy literature or have a bit better sense of humor than the MM Muggles, anyway something that would make them MUCH more attractive to wizards and witches than MM Muggles, so that all mixed marriages happen to Mm Muggles, so that the Mendelian average would be that half the children are mm magic. But canon seems to show all or most of the children of these mixed marriages being magic, which is not Mendelian no matter how you slice it. Maybe there is something like the Rh- factor, in which an mm woman has tremendous difficulty in carrying an Mm child to term ... like an acquaintance of mine who mentioned that her parents had 21 miscarriages before she came along. From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 02:48:50 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:48:50 -0000 Subject: The Droobles Blowing Gum Wrappers - Mystery Solved? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126685 I finally figured out why Alice Longbottom is so fixated on Droobles Blowing Gum Wrappers, and in doing so, found how Sirius probably screwed up big-time as the Potter's Secretkeeper. There have been countless posts dealing with the Droobles Gum Wrappers, with many novel theories and anagrams tossed about to be chewed on and spit out, {so to speak}. Here is my take on what the incident means and why it might be important in explaining what happened at Godric's Hollow. The Droobles Blowing Gum Wrapper itself isn't as important as what most of us would do to a gum wrapper as compared to what Neville actually did with it. Gum Wrappers are tossed away as if they have no value at all (besides keeping gum off our shoes). Unfortunately, someone who was careless with a seemingly unimportant piece of paper fifteen years before the visit to St Mungos may have changed the course of history of the Wizarding World. What if Sirius as secretkeeper wrote the Potter's Hiding Place down on paper and then DIDN'T PROPERLY DESTROY IT? And what if Pettigrew found the paper and took it to Voldemort, where its authenticity can be verified either by Regulus Black or the Black family crest that appeared on the paper? Once Voldemort had the location, the Potters were doomed. I don't believe that Pettigrew was ever the Potter's Secretkeeper as everyone claims. I can't beleive that Sirius would be that stupid given the low opinion everyone has of the little rat. McGonagall went on a rant with Madame Rosmerta as to how stupid and useless Pettigrew was. Why would Sirius think that changing secretkeeper to Pettigrew would work ? Pettigrew was always good at stealth and what better way f utilizing stealth than to steal a scrap of paper carelessly handled or disposed of by Sirius? Rats do live near bins, don't they? Sirius tosses the paper in the bin, and Peter transfigures into a rat, goes into the bin, and voila! One rat with valuable information. Before you dismiss this idea, there are three bits of canon you should be aware of: First, going back to POA, end of Chapter 13, we find that Neville has caused Sir Cadugan to allow the then Killer!Black into Gryffindor Tower because Neville left a piece of paper with a week's worth of paswords lying around. Neville's carelessness with a scrap of paper put everyone in Gryffindor in danger. Second, in OOP, at the very end of Chapter 3, Moody gives Harry a piece of parchment with the instructions to "read quickly and memorize". Harry sees the location of the Order written in a familiar hndwriting. Then at the start of Chapter 4, Moody "pulled the piece of parchment out of Harry's hand and set fire to it with his wand tip. ... the message curled into flames and floated to the ground...". Harry did not need the paper, merely the memory of its contents, to enter 12 Grimaud Place. Was Moody being paranoid? Or, was he being careful that noone else could possibly see the message? Third, in OOP, at the end of Chapter 23, Neville's guarded secret, which was a secret to all EXEPT FOR HARRY, was exposed when HRH saw Neville leaving the closed ward with his grandmother after visiting his parents. While Neville's grandmother tells HRH about Neville's parents, she is interrupted by Neville's mom, holding something in her outstretched hand. "..Neville had already stretched out his hand, into which his mother dropped an empty Droobles Blowing Gum Wrapper." Neville's grandmother says " ..Neville, put that wrapper in the bin, she must have given you enough of them to paper your bedroom by now ...." However, Harry was sure that he saw Neville slip the wrapper into his pocket. Why would Neville do that? The first reference tells us the consequences of being careless with important information written on common objects. Neville has learned his lesson and does not leave the gum wrapper lying around like he did before. The second reference tells us how secret information is revealed to a non secretkeeper and how the information is properly disposed of afterwards. Though Moody is admittedly super-paranoid, he makes absolutely sure that noone else can read the message. The third reference, links the first two - a gumwrapper, an object seemingly unimportant, is held for safekeeping until it can be properly disposed of or taken to a safe place. Anyone can get the wrapper out of a bin once it was tossed there.... especially a rat..... So i feel that Sirius Black never intended to tell Pettigrew where the Potters were hidden. When the hiding places were set up or shortly thereafter, Sirius showed a certain piece of paper to the Longbottoms (just like Moody showed Harry in OOP). Then Sirius got careless and didn't destroy the slip of paper revealing the Potter's hiding place. Voldemort knew that it was authentic because either the paper was marked with the Black crest from a ring, or Regulus was able to authenticate Sirius' handwriting. This relieves Pettigrew from having any brains, only treachery and the ability to dumpster dive. So the Potters were done in by Sirius' carelessness and Pettigrew's treachery. The lie that Pettigrew was made secretkeeper was told to disguise the real guilty party - Sirius Black. This also ties in with the theory of Snape trying to warn James but being rebuffed. He was there when Pettigrew delivered the evidence and knew that the Potters were in mortal danger and went to warn them, only to have James laugh in his face (thanks for that idea, mooseming...). It also explains Snape's tirade that Harry believed in Black too much... And additionally, how did the death eaters know where to find the Longbottoms? Dumbledore KNEW that both boys were threatened. Why hide one using a secretkeeper and not the other ? It would seem that the Longbottoms had a secret keeper too. Did they trust Sirius with that huge responsibility too? Or did they show Sirius a similar piece of paper revealing their hiding place that was not properly disposed of? I wonder... Little bits of paper are very important - even bubble gum wrappers. Something here for everyone to chew on...... Tinglinger who has recently created a yahoo group for theories and plotlines for the Harry Potter series which you are welcome to check out at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 03:37:47 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 03:37:47 -0000 Subject: The Droobles Blowing Gum Wrappers - Mystery Solved? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: What if Sirius as secretkeeper wrote the Potter's Hiding Place down on paper and then DIDN'T PROPERLY DESTROY IT? And what if Pettigrew found the paper and took it to Voldemort, where its authenticity can be verified either by Regulus Black or the Black family crest that appeared on the paper? Once Voldemort had the location, the Potters were doomed. vmonte responds: Peter already knew the address because he was the secret keeper. And Sirius made Peter the secret keeper according to the books. See the Lexicon: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/pettigrew.html Vivian From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Mar 28 03:38:55 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 03:38:55 -0000 Subject: The Droobles Blowing Gum Wrappers - Mystery Solved? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126687 tinglinger: > What if Sirius as secretkeeper wrote the Potter's Hiding > Place down on paper and then DIDN'T PROPERLY DESTROY IT? > And what if Pettigrew found the paper and took it to > Voldemort, where its authenticity can be verified either > by Regulus Black or the Black family crest that appeared > on the paper? Once Voldemort had the location, the Potters > were doomed. > > I don't believe that Pettigrew was ever the Potter's > Secretkeeper as everyone claims. I can't beleive that > Sirius would be that stupid given the low opinion everyone > has of the little rat. McGonagall went on a rant with Madame > Rosmerta as to how stupid and useless Pettigrew was. Why > would Sirius think that changing secretkeeper to Pettigrew > would work ? Jen: Now this is a very interesting take on the Droobles wrappers and one that fits really well except for this one little section. Even Sirius says that Peter was the SK, that "Lily and James only made you SK because I suggested it." (POA, Servant of Lord Voldemort). I can't imagine Peter would not protest that he *wasn't* the SK, and also why would Sirius lie about that part? It doesn't appear that Sirius was ever the SK, that before the Fidelius was performed he suggested Pettigrew instead. As for the wrappers though, and their possible meaning, that's a nifty idea that *Alice* may be the one who accidentally misplaced an important piece of paper or in some way contributed to Godric's Hollow incident or the Longbottom torture. Maybe her SK (if they had one) accidentally left a paper lying about as you suggested, leading to the revelation of the Longbottoms location. You do make a very good canon argument for what can happen in the WW when people are careless with seemingly insignificant slips of paper. Jen From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 28 04:05:13 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 04:05:13 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marcelle" wrote: > > snippage... > > celletiger: > Kay, the way I see it is that we aren't aware of any relation of DD > to HP. DD, as much as he avoids it, is in a political position, > just as any chancellor of a university is in a political position. > Thank goodness DD is not "political" in the sense that he can be > persuaded by money/power, (hey I'm from Louisiana). DD was simply > taking care of business that night. It wasnt his responsibility to > take HP anywhere that Halloween. In fact, its nice that a man of > his position did. Sure DD was a leader in the OoP, but then the > order should have been responsible for HP's future. DD acted > quickly and obviously performed some charm that protected HP at > Privet Drive for the first fourteen years he lived there. He put > Figgy on the Drive to make sure the kid wasn't in mortal peril. > Success is about managment skills, inculding delegation. I'm sorry but I have to disagree vehemently. This isn't about "management." This is about placing a child where he knew the child would be unwanted, unloved, and treated badly. Further, DD has as much as admitted that he wasn't making this decision for charity. He VERY much had his own purposes in mind. Thus, "political" figure or not, his actions cannot be seen as some sort of saintly act, but as a calculated move for which he must be held morally accountable. DD thought > it impt enough to himslef deliver HP to the Dursleys. DD alone will > have to answer for any heinous problems of HP's mental development > as a result of HP's tenure with the Dursleys, which since HP came > out rather well adjusted (I attribute the 'tude problem in OoP to > the tragic events of Gof), DD did what a prudent manager would do, > and HP turned out alright. > celletiger Well, nora (nrenka) has recently answered this one, so I will quote her: I'd say the most important thing in the plot of the series is that Harry has a very real and tangible reluctance to go to adults for help, and this is a result of adults always having been unreliable in his life. He doesn't tell Dumbledore what he's thinking and of his odd experiences in CoS; he keeps mum about the quill in OotP out of a desire to protect McGonagall. That kind of intense independence is something that Harry takes to an extent which is distinctly unhealthy (especially in the case of the quill). There's no denying Harry's bitterness when he states about Petunia that "She never loved me!". He's reluctant to engage with the Weasleys, who are happy to try to be surrogate parents. Harry is reluctant to let anyone know about his scar pains in GoF, but does open up about that to Sirius, indicating the rare position of trust that Sirius holds for him. Harry's inwardness can be strength, but it's also a weakness, and it seems generated in part by the loveless home of the Dursleys. He is lucky to have the support of his friends as much as he does, and he is distinctly less functional when his support net is decreased (when Ron is not talking to him). That points to someone who really must have that support, not someone to whom it is really just the icing on the cake. Lupinlore now: I will just add that I agree totally. Harry bears many deep scars from his time at the Dursleys, and Dumbledore should acknowledge them and admit to his own culpability in their creation. Lupinlore From elfundeb at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 04:20:37 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:20:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Elves and Slavery In-Reply-To: <002201c53170$5a72d360$704b6d51@f3b7j4> References: <1111678023.58803.34492.m30@yahoogroups.com> <002201c53170$5a72d360$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <80f25c3a0503272020695903c9@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126689 Ffred wrote: > Elves aren't human and they don't have human nature. > > Their nature is to do housework. > > Some (and I'm sure not all) wizards take advantage of that by mistreating > elves in their households. That doesn't make them "masters" any more than it > makes elves "slaves". Except that in the books, these words are consistently used to describe the relationship. For example, in CoS ch. 10 Dobby refers both to his "master" and his "enslavement." In OOP ch. 37 Dumbledore uses the word "master" more than once to describe the relationship between Sirius and Kreacher, and describes Kreacher's condition as enslavement. And Winky refers to both Crouch Sr. and Jr. as "master." I agree that it is the house elves' nature to want to provide good service, and that therefore they can't directly be compared to humans. However, there are ways of allowing the house elves to do housework without exploiting them. I think the fact that house elves lack the freedom, as things stand now, to disobey a direct order means that the nature of the relationship between the elves and those they work for must be changed. > If I was to end the "slavery" of my old dog, she'd die a miserable death on > the streets. I think it's equally cruel to try to force elves to be what? > Proletarians? when they just don't want to be. But your dog is not bound to serve you and punish herself if she doesn't do what you want. Ffred: > But shifting across to the WW, things are very different. Our own species > has three subspecies (not just Muggles like ourselves, but also squibs and > wizarding folk). But also the world is inhabited by many other sapient > species (who can be expected to have very different natures than ourselves). [snip discussion of different ww species of beings, which I agree with] > Is the message perhaps that the more humans meddle with house elves, the > worse it is for them? Shouldn't we just let them get on with what it's in > their nature to do, and not try to alter them? Would the result of > Hermione's crusade be a species made up of Kreachers and Winkys? Hermione > can be understood for her perspective, but WW-borns _know_ that not all > sapients have minds that run on the same tracks as our own. It is their nature to provide good service (even independent-minded Dobby does not want a new profession), but we don't know whether their enslavement is part of their nature or whether the terms of their enslavement are part of a centuries-old devil's bargain between house elves and wizards. If the former, Hermione is way off the mark as the real issue is house elf abuse. If the latter, the fact that they are enslaved is the problem, because they cannot leave an abusive master. The relationships among all beings are a constant issue in the WW, as illustrated by the snippets of history in Fantastic Beasts. Wizards are not the only species to believe they are superior to other beings. Witness the centaurs' insistence on classification as beasts because they would not share being classification with hags and vampires. And though there are clearly differences in the natures of different species (Grawp, anyone?), we don't know how extensive they are. Are goblins by nature wily creatures who counseled trolls to disrupt the councils of beings, or is it a reaction to their isolation from wizarding society? The differences between nonhuman beings and humans does make it very difficult to claim that any species of beings is being used in the books as a specific metaphor for something -- be it slavery, housewives, or the servant class (in the case of the elves), the mentally ill or HIV-positive (in the case of werewolves), or Jews (which has been suggested as a metaphor for the goblins), though I believe it is appropriate to assume that JKR is raising issues of exploitation and prejudice in her depiction of the treatment of nonhuman beings in the books. Debbie From captivity at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 18:20:26 2005 From: captivity at gmail.com (-p) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:20:26 -0500 Subject: Green light spell in OotP In-Reply-To: <1111935019.9265.97005.m12@yahoogroups.com> References: <1111935019.9265.97005.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126690 In reading the books - I've alsways associated certain spells with certain colors of light - red flashes are stunning spells and green - well, Avada Kedavra, of course. And man that green light was passed back and forth throughout the Ministry during the final showdown in OotP. I'm wondering if could have gotten hit with anything other than Avada Kedavra. It seems to me that she got hit with the same type of green light that hit the statue protecting Harry, the same green light that 'killed' Fawkes and the same green light that snuffed everyone else in the series who got snuffed with the Avada Kedavra spell. JKR says that Tonks will appear in later books - so I'm waiting for someone to tell me why she didn't die from the green light, or perhaps that there is another powerful spell that emits a green flash. Ideas? -p From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 05:22:10 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:22:10 -0000 Subject: The Droobles Blowing Gum Wrappers - Mystery Solved? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126691 tinglinger What if Sirius as secretkeeper wrote the Potter's Hiding Place down on paper and then DIDN'T PROPERLY DESTROY IT? And what if Pettigrew found the paper and took it to Voldemort, where its authenticity can be verified either by Regulus Black or the Black family crest that appeared on the paper? Once Voldemort had the location, the Potters were doomed. vmonte responds: Peter already knew the address because he was the secret keeper. And Sirius made Peter the secret keeper according to the books. Lexicon: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/pettigrew.html tinglinger again yes but in the previous paragraph hagrid, in describing what his role was the night the Potters died and how Sirius loaned him the motorbike says "Dumbledore knew he'd bin the Potters' Secret-Keeper." This statement is then supported by Fudge. McGonagall changes directions in mid sentence when describing Pettigrew. "Never quite in their league, talent wise. I was often rather sharp with him. You can imagine how I - how I regret that now,,,," She sounded as though she had a sudden head cold." Hmmmmm - or a sudden change of heart? Did she know something the others didn't? If she knew that Sirius was NOT the Secret Keeper, did she know that Peter was much more likely to betray Lily and James than Surius was? If so why didnt she say anything? Then in the Shrieking Shack, after Lupin arrives, he asks a strange question and gets seems to convince himself of an up to this point unlikely fact - ALL THROUGH LEGILLIMENS POA Chapter 17 "But then..." Lupin mutthered, STARING AT BLACK SO INTENTLY IT SEEMED HE WAS TRYING TO READ HIS MIND,{a blatant clue that Lupin could at least try legillimens} "... why hasn't he shown hinself before now" Unless" - Lupin's eyes suddenly widened, as though he was seeing something beyond Black, something none of the rest could see, {another clue that Lupin used legillimens}" - unless he was the one, ...unless you switched without telling me ?" tinglinger Telling me ............or anyone else for that matter. So it is only Sirius' word, {or thought transferred} that supports Peter as new SK. Lupin draws that conclusion based on Sirius' thoughts. Then later on, after a lot activity, Harry finally yells that Sirius was the secret keeper, and Harry hears Sirius start a confessional until {sirius'} voice broke. {Sirius} turned away. But Lupin is very unsympathetic - "Enough of this,"said Lupin, and there was a steely note in his voice Harry never heard before." I have puzzled about this quote often, and have a theory, but that is for a later post..... Once Scabbers transformed to Pettigrew, Black gets his courage back "Lily and James only made you Secret-Keeper because I suggested it," black hissed so venomously that Pettigrew took a step backwards... Pettigrew was muttering distractedly; Harry caught words like "far-fetched" and "lunacy", but he couldnt help paying more attention to the ashen color of Pettigrew's face .... I think there is enough doubt to make the stolen paper theory at least possible. Tinglinger who has recently created a yahoo group for theories and plotlines for the Harry Potter series which you are welcome to check out at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots {with one colon this time so the link should work!} From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 20:10:06 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:10:06 -0000 Subject: Muggle Money Exchange Rate? Link In-Reply-To: <20050327075154.50732.qmail@web25307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126692 > UdderPD adding his two pence worth: > > I accept and normally use ?5 == 1 Galleon (I usually allow a > slight variation in Goblin exchange rates. > > But looking at the International exchange rates this morning > I find ?1 == $1.8 which makes 1Galleon == $9.00 I think in this case it's appropriate to say that there's room for change seeing as it fluctuates daily. I'd think 7-9 is a good estimate when appraising, then. Chys From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 05:36:06 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:36:06 -0000 Subject: Green light spell in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126693 -p I'm wondering if {Tonks} could have gotten hit with anything other than Avada Kedavra. It seems to me that she got hit with the same type of green light that hit the statue protecting Harry, the same green light that 'killed' Fawkes and the same green light that snuffed everyone else in the series who got snuffed with the Avada Kedavra spell. JKR says that Tonks will appear in later books - so I'm waiting for someone to tell me why she didn't die from the green light, or perhaps that there is another powerful spell that emits a green flash. Ideas? tinglinger The spell was never described. All the text said was "Harry saw Tonks fall .., her limp form toppling from stone seat to stone seat, and Bellatrix, triumphant, running back towards the fray" Bellatrix wasn't only shooting AKs because {if you believe that "her" second jet of light hit Sirius} Sirius didn't die immediately like he would have if he was hit by an AK - he d'd going through the veil. Also in her winning duel with Kingsley,jkr describes him as "There was a loud bang and a yell from behind the dais. Harry saw Kingsley, yelling in pain, hit the ground." Not the result of an AK. tinglinger who has a website for discussion of plot points called potterplots http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 20:12:36 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:12:36 -0000 Subject: on veritaserum and being paranoid and suspicious In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126694 -p wrote: > > Is Veritaserum more or less reliable than Sodium Pentathol? Am I > wrong to think that it is a cure-all for situations in which one party > or anoher is not believed to be telling the truth? In situations such > as when Harry and his crew are swearing this or that about the Dark > Lord, why wasn't anyone willing to administer Veritaserum to ensure > the truth? Chys: Isn't it against some kind of rule or moral code to administer it to children? Umbridge had no problem with this obviously. About Crouch, I don't think anyone was the wiser, even for his elf's odd behaviour. Look at Dobby. He's odd as it is and apparently there's nothing wrong with him other than the fact he's got some obvious issues. Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun Mar 27 20:29:04 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:29:04 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126695 > Vivian / vmonte responds: > You make some good points but according to the HP books DD > is only 150 years old and Flamel was 666 in book 1. Childhood > friends doesn't seem to apply unless DD is actually older than > we've been told or perhaps DD is actually Flamel himself. Maybe > that's why he is looking so tired lately, he's running out of > the elixir. I mean as in during DD's childhood, sorry about that. I know the age difference. XD There was mention of Flamel being 7 when his wife was born, right? (Just thinking.) But that was a much longer time before DD. Maybe he was a teacher or something. It could be anything like that, the the two of them got working on a project together... Flamel IS DD? Well, that's one that I -had- thought of before, first time I finished reading book 1, since Harry never SEES him in the series & he never finds an image of his face. For such an important back-character, he never showed up! If he was actually DD, it would make sense. I don't know though. I don't remember ever actually reading that DD was 150. I had always had to guess. I don't keep up on every interview, but I never encountered this in a book. Did I miss it somewhere? How old is McGonnagall? I was certain that nothing was mentioned of a wizard's longevity, so I wouldn't have known if they could be potentially older than the book seems to imply. Chys From captivity at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 01:54:59 2005 From: captivity at gmail.com (-p) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:54:59 -0500 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: <1111935019.9265.97005.m12@yahoogroups.com> References: <1111935019.9265.97005.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126696 I've been reading plot theories on how Ginny will be a Chaser and Ron will be Keeper and Harry will be Seeker again next year - Why does everyone want to put all the popular characters on the team? -I have a nagging suspiscion that JKR may keep Harry off the Quidditch pitch for good. Just because Umbridge has been discredited doesn't mean everything is hunky-dory does it? What if Harry's school Quidditch days are over? -p From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 04:52:38 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 04:52:38 -0000 Subject: was HBP possibility/ Born as Squibs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126697 Alina: > I believe half-blood is a term that applies only to witches > and wizards, not to squibs or muggles. The real question is > for me, whether someone who has one magical and one muggle > parent but can't do magic themselves is called a squib or a > muggle? Chys: I think in this one, it's squib since it's FROM a magical parent but with no magical ability. I don't know what it would be for a squib who has muggle/squib children with another squib or with a muggle as father/mother. Could a squib have wizarding children that are still magical? However, I do think that Squib (who married) a wizard as mother/father who produced an heir he/she would either be born as another squib in the family, or a wizard/witch dependant upon whether they could use magic or not because the mother/father was magical. Gah. I can see it better this way: Muggle x Muggle = Muggle child or Wizard/Witch child (In which case it's called Muggleborn or 'Mudblood') Muggle x Wizard/Witch = Squib? or Wizard/Witch child (In which case it is half-blood, but is it called a Squib in this case??) Wizard x Witch = Squib child or Wizard/Witch child (Dependent upon family history, this is pure-blooded or half-blooded.) Squib x Wizard/Witch = Squib child or Wizard/Witch Child (I don't know how bloodlines apply to this with intricate family histories.) Is that right? Correct me if I'm wrong, as I would want to know. Thanks Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 05:12:18 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:12:18 -0000 Subject: The Droobles Blowing Gum Wrappers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126698 tinglinger: > What if Sirius as secretkeeper wrote the Potter's Hiding > Place down on paper and then DIDN'T PROPERLY DESTROY IT? > And what if Pettigrew found the paper and took it to > Voldemort, where its authenticity can be verified either > by Regulus Black or the Black family crest that appeared > on the paper? Once Voldemort had the location, the Potters > were doomed. Chys: The fact of the matter is, Peter was made the secret keeper because Sirius was too obvious. This is canon. Also, something that a few people obviously didn't pick up- Neville's MOTHER gave him that wrapper. She's incapable of giving him anything other than little things like that and the fact it was -from- her -to- him is sentimental. He kept it because it was a gift from her, made me sad there when I first read it. Reminded me of a relative of mine who does the same thing. She doesn't have any other way to do anything for him, in that state. It's hard to believe some people didn't catch that part. But I suppose the papers laying about was a good point- in the fact that if you have a secret, you must keep it to yourself without the potential that someone could steal it or pick it up. I don't think that had anything to do with the Longbottom's problem though. Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 05:25:01 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:25:01 -0000 Subject: House Elves and Slavery/Harry's relation to House elves In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a0503272020695903c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126699 Debbie: > though I believe it is appropriate to assume that JKR is raising > issues of exploitation and prejudice in her depiction of the > treatment of nonhuman beings in the books. That, and the treatment of Harry by the Dursleys are eerily similar. Thus Harry would understand it, and his relationship with Dobby makes perfect sense- he sees/treats him as an equal because he can see people in that light. He doesn't think of himself as superior, he hasn't learned that (growing up doing the dishes, cleaning the house/gardening, doing all of Dudley's chores...) and he doesn't follow that superiority philosophy that seems to rampant in older pureblood families. (Some could argue that was part of the reason DD placed him with the muggle family to begin with, for perspective.) I usually compare him to a house elf in my mind, when thinking of his ill treatment by the Dursleys. It's something he can understand, but not to the extend of bashing his own brains out or ironing his hands- that's where the similarities end. He's not inclined to it, he was forced into it like the elves it seems are forced to follow their master's orders. He has a good relationship with Hagrid and the fact that the's part giant doesn't phase him. Same with Lupin and the fact he's a werewolf. Being different in that way is not an issue for the kid, nor is the difference in birthright or blood. He doesn't seem to be prejudiced in that way, and can relate to Ron in his poverty, having been given hand-me-downs of the rugged kind for all of 11 years. Maybe this will make him better than LV, in that light, or perhaps that was DD's intent, and JKR brings it out more clearly with the differences in the species and his reaction to that? Chys From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 06:55:57 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:55:57 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? Alternate View. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, -p wrote: > > I've been reading plot theories on how Ginny will be a Chaser and > Ron will be Keeper and Harry will be Seeker again next year - Why > does everyone want to put all the popular characters on the team? > -I have a nagging suspiscion that JKR may keep Harry off the > Quidditch pitch for good. > -P replied: > > Just because Umbridge has been discredited doesn't mean everything > is hunky-dory does it? What if Harry's school Quidditch days are > over? > > -p bboyminn: Harry may or may not continue with Quidditch, but I don't personally think it will have anything to do with Umbridge. Everyone, especially Ginny, seems to realize the Umbridge's rules and ruling will only last as long as Umbridge. If she's gone then her ruling against Harry is gone. Neither Dumbledore nor McGonagall would EVER continue to enforce Harry's ban from Quiditch. But that doesn't mean he couldn't stop playing for other reasons. With Dumbledore re-appointed as Head of the Wizengamot, I'm sure all the Education Decrees will be rescinded, and along with them all of Umbridge's school related authority. So, again, if Harry doesn't continue with Quidditch, it will not have anything to do with Umbridgel; school work, DA Club, private lessons, stress, but not Umbridge. As far as Quidditch, I've always had the suspicion that Harry and Ron would end up as Beaters. Given how terrible the current Beaters are, I think they will find an alternate Keeper, Ginny will continue as Seeker, and they will try to find a couple of reasonable Chasers. No matter how you arrange it, the next Gryffindor Quidditch team is in trouble. Although, they might encourage Dean and Seamus to try out for Chasers, it seems that Seamus claims to have done a fair amount of flying before he entered school. It's possible he never applied before because a position he wanted was never open before. Now with at least two Chasers gone, he my try out. I predict - Keeper - unknown (Neville? Creevey? Transferred Slytherin? Other?) Seeker - Ginny Beaters - Ron and Harry Chasers - Dean, Seamus, Katie Bell Captian - Harry in the beginning, but Ron by the end. Remember, you heard it here first. Steve/bboyminn From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Mar 28 06:55:22 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:55:22 -0000 Subject: Green light spell in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126701 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: tinglinger: > Bellatrix wasn't only shooting AKs because {if you believe that > "her" second jet of light hit Sirius} Sirius didn't die > immediately like he would have if he was hit by an AK - > he d'd going through the veil. Geoff: Indeed she wasn't. If you look at the moments before Sirius was hit... "Only one pair was still battling, apparently unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light:he was laughing at her. "Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing round the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest." (OOTP "Beyond the Veil" p.710 UK edition) There has always been speculation as to who sent the second spell and what it was, but Bellatrix's first attempt wasn't an Avadra Kedavra. Geoff Visit http://www.aspectsofexmoor.com for views of the Exmoor National Park and the heritage West Somerset Railway From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 07:07:01 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:07:01 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Scabbers hate Goyle (was: Why did Crookshanks 'hate' Scabbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126702 Tinglinger wrote: > There are several possible explanations that I can see - > 1 - As Sirius said in POA, Pettigrew always aligned with the > stronger side. Although in this particular fight, > Malfy/Goyle/Crabbe are physically stronger, they are on the > wrong side of the WW in the big picture.. > 2 - Pettigrew did not want to blow his cover as Ron's pet > where he could hear all sorts of interesting info, especially > with Harry Potter around, and > 3 - Peter was living at the Weasley residence since Percy > got him, and was privy to all sorts of info coming out of the Ministry > (a great home for rats, it seems), giving further > reason not to blow his cover. I would agree that your option one is correct. Peter is aligning himself on the "stronger" side, ie his owner, making him a more beloved pet. But I don't think he was worried at all about being discovered at that point in time. There'd be absolutely no reason for Ron or anyone else to suspect Scabbers to be Peter Pettigrew. It wasn't until Remus came to Hogwarts and Sirius escaped was there any real threat on Peter's cover, as both could recognize his Animagus form. I doubt Peter was even contemplating rejoining Voldemort at that time, either. He was probably done with it all. But when he was found out and on the run again, he had to find himself a powerful protector: Voldemort. Peter biting Goyle could mean any multitude of things under the surface - perhaps Goyle Sr. picked on Peter before he hooked up with James, etc? Or during his time with Voldemort back in the day, Goyle Sr. was cruel or looked down on Peter or any other number of things that would cause Peter to have a grudge against Goyle Jr. (As Snape has shown, sons who look like their fathers shall not be pardoned). Perhaps, not as an intentional act of Peter, though, but perhaps it is a plot device by JKR to later have Goyle Jr. be on Harry's side. --Lindsay From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Mon Mar 28 06:38:21 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:38:21 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126703 Lupinlore: > Well, Nora (nrenka) has recently answered this one, so I will > quote her: > > I'd say the most important thing in the plot of the series is > that Harry has a very real and tangible reluctance to go to > adults for help, and this is a result of adults always having > been unreliable in his life. > > There's no denying Harry's bitterness when he states about > Petunia that "She never loved me!". He's reluctant to engage > with the Weasleys, who are happy to try to be surrogate parents. > Harry is reluctant to let anyone know about his scar pains in > GoF, but does open up about that to Sirius, indicating the rare > position of trust that Sirius holds for him. John: I would say that Harry's reluctance to engage with the adults in his life is less about their "unreliability" in his eyes, than Harry's own personality, his feeling the need to constantly prove himself. Harry's reluctance to confide in (virtually) anyone other then his peers, and perhaps BiggerBrother!Sirius, is born out of the fear of tarnishing other people's view of him. I think you'll find that this is a characteristic very common in adolescent boys, healthy home-life or otherwise. > Lupinlore now: > I will just add that I agree totally. Harry bears many deep > scars from his time at the Dursleys, and Dumbledore should > acknowledge them and admit to his own culpability in their > creation. John: You make it sound as if Harry is in need of some serious therapy! (Then again, perhaps he is, but only because of the trauma he has experienced since entering the WW.) Just enlighten me with a few more of these "MANY deep scars" (my emphasis) inflicted upon Harry. IMO he arrives at Hogwarts, as DD says, as normal a boy as could be expected under the circumstances; and, in fact, a good deal healthier than many kids. Sure he has his flaws; just don't confuse those inherent in his person with the "scarring" inflicted by the Dursleys. My opinion, for what it's worth. John. From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 07:19:45 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:19:45 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: References: <1111935019.9265.97005.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126704 -p writes > I've been reading plot theories on how Ginny will be a Chaser and > Ron will be Keeper and Harry will be Seeker again next year - Why > does everyone want to put all the popular characters on the team? > -I have a nagging suspiscion that JKR may keep Harry off the > Quidditch pitch for good. > > Just because Umbridge has been discredited doesn't mean everything > is hunky-dory does it? What if Harry's school Quidditch days are > over? > Well, we do have this tidbit in OOtP, chp. 26: 'Good catch,' Harry told Ginny back in the common room, where the atmosphere resembled that of a particularly dismal funeral. 'I was lucky,' she shrugged. 'It wasn't a very fast Snitch and Summerby's got a cold, he sneezed and closed his eyes at exactly the wrong moment. Anyway, once you're back on the team -' 'Ginny, I've got a lifelong ban.' 'You're banned as long as Umbridge is in the school,' Ginny corrected him. 'There's a difference. Anyway, once you're back, I think I'll try out for Chaser. Angelina and Alicia are both leaving next year and I prefer goal-scoring to Seeking anyway.' ---- So we know that Ginny will try out for Chaser next year. And now that Umbridge is gone and faith restored in Dumbledore, I'm sure he can get all those Educational Decrees removed and Harry back on the Quidditch team. Whether or not Ron will be there - I think he still will be, but as Keeper? Probably, unless he possibly tries out for Chaser, seeing as there will be two openings next year. But I think it is pretty positive that we'll see Harry as Seeker and Ginny as Chaser next year. I also think that Millicent will be Keeper for Slytherin, seeing as there will be an opening next year and she is one of those who checked out Quidditch Through the Ages. I believe that JKR was leaving a hint. :) --Lindsay From kempermentor at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 08:29:51 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:29:51 -0000 Subject: Squibs are considered Mudbloods by some was: HBP possibility/ Born as Squibs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126705 > Alina: > > I believe half-blood is a term that applies only to witches > > and wizards, not to squibs or muggles. The real question is > > for me, whether someone who has one magical and one muggle > > parent but can't do magic themselves is called a squib or a > > muggle? > > > Chys: > > I think in this one, it's squib since it's FROM a magical parent > but with no magical ability. I don't know what it would be for a squib who has muggle/squib children with another squib or with a > muggle as father/mother. Could a squib have wizarding children > that are still magical? > Muggle x Muggle = Muggle child or Wizard/Witch child (In which case > it's called Muggleborn or 'Mudblood') > > Muggle x Wizard/Witch = Squib? or Wizard/Witch child (In which case > it is half-blood, but is it called a Squib in this case??) > > Wizard x Witch = Squib child or Wizard/Witch child (Dependent upon > family history, this is pure-blooded or half-blooded.) > > Squib x Wizard/Witch = Squib child or Wizard/Witch Child (I don't > know how bloodlines apply to this with intricate family histories.) > > Is that right? > Correct me if I'm wrong, as I would want to know. Kemper now: "He did it, he did it!" Filch spat, his pouchy face purpling. "You saw what he wrote on the wall! He found ? in my office ? he knows I'm a ? I'm a ?" Filch's face worked horribly. "He knows I'm a Squib!" he finished. (CS 142) " wrote on the wall" To refresh everyone's memory what was written on the wall: THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS HAS BEEN OPENED. ENEMIES OF THE HEIR, BEWARE. (CS 138) Filch, a Squib, identifies with `enemies of the heir.' Enemies of the heir are thought to be Muggles and those without pure magical heritage. Since Filch identifies himself as an enemy of the heir, it can easily be assumed that he considers himself a Mudblood, not because he was born of Muggle parents, but because he was born a Muggle essentially. So, as to Alina's question as diagramed by Chys, Squib x Witch/Wizard = ? If ? is a magical child, then she would be considered a Half-Blood, regardless of how pure the Squib's bloodlines are. If ? is a non-magical child, then she would either be considered a Muggle, if the magical parent was not in the life (of course, the child would never know she was a Muggle), or a Squib, if the magical parent was still in her life and therefore a part of Magical Culture and Language. Kemper Who is interested in becoming a member of WHY, We Hate Yahoo. From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 28 10:11:20 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:11:20 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126706 -P > I've been reading plot theories on how Ginny will be a Chaser and > Ron will be Keeper and Harry will be Seeker again next year - Why > does everyone want to put all the popular characters on the team? > -I have a nagging suspiscion that JKR may keep Harry off the > Quidditch pitch for good. > > Just because Umbridge has been discredited doesn't mean everything > is hunky-dory does it? What if Harry's school Quidditch days are > over? Karen: Something that has ocurred to me before is will there even be any Quidditch in books 6 & 7 - after all there will be a war on won't there? I know that a lot of people on this site are American and their homeland wasn't affected in the same way: Hollywood didn't stop making films so I assume that sports also carried on, but there was certainly no professional sport played in Britain during WW II - apart from anything else, all the professional sportsmen were fighting in the war. As certain of the older Hogswarts students will be doing so too in some capacity or other, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Quidditch was one of the first casuaties. Karen From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 11:15:35 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:15:35 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126707 Karen: Something that has ocurred to me before is will there even be any Quidditch in books 6 & 7 - after all there will be a war on won't there? I know that a lot of people on this site are American and their homeland wasn't affected in the same way: Hollywood didn't stop making films so I assume that sports also carried on, but there was certainly no professional sport played in Britain during WW II - apart from anything else, all the professional sportsmen were fighting in the war. As certain of the older Hogswarts students will be doing so too in some capacity or other, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Quidditch was one of the first casuaties. vmonte responds: I doubt it. JKR has already made several references regarding Quidditch in the next book. One that comes to mind is that there will be a new captain and that he/she might not want Ron on the team. Also, the character of Ginny has already told Harry that when Umbridge gets kicked out of school he'll be able to play on the team again. Ginny also makes it known that she wants to play Chaser in sixth year. Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 11:33:27 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:33:27 -0000 Subject: The Droobles Blowing Gum Wrappers - Mystery Solved? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126708 tinglinger wrote: yes but in the previous paragraph hagrid, in describing what his role was the night the Potters died and how Sirius loaned him the motorbike says "Dumbledore knew he'd bin the Potters' Secret-Keeper." This statement is then supported by Fudge. McGonagall changes directions in mid sentence when describing Pettigrew. "Never quite in their league, talent wise. I was often rather sharp with him. You can imagine how I - how I regret that now,,,," She sounded as though she had a sudden head cold." Hmmmmm - or a sudden change of heart? Did she know something the others didn't? If she knew that Sirius was NOT the Secret Keeper, did she know that Peter was much more likely to betray Lily and James than Surius was? If so why didnt she say anything? vmonte responds: Dumbledore only knew what the original plan was. This plan was later altered by Sirius and the Potters who never informed anyone else of the change. We know this because Sirius tells us that he and the Potters made the change. We are also told by other characters that they were not aware of the change. McG feels sorry for being so tough on Pettigrew in retrospect. It doesn't say anything about her being suspicious of Peter before the GH attack. Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 11:40:46 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:40:46 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126709 Chys wrote: Flamel IS DD? Well, that's one that I -had- thought of before, first time I finished reading book 1, since Harry never SEES him in the series & he never finds an image of his face. For such an important back-character, he never showed up! If he was actually DD, it would make sense. I don't know though. I don't remember ever actually reading that DD was 150. I had always had to guess. I don't keep up on every interview, but I never encountered this in a book. Did I miss it somewhere? How old is McGonnagall? I was certain that nothing was mentioned of a wizard's longevity, so I wouldn't have known if they could be potentially older than the book seems to imply. vmonte responds: If DD is Flamel then it would make sense why his Patronus is a Phoenix. (I wonder if he had any other aliases?) JKR has already told us that a person's patronus is a reflection of the person. JKR also said in another itnterview that DD was about 150-years-old and that Minerva was 75-years-old. Vivian From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 28 12:36:51 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:36:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Why did Scabbers hate Goyle? Message-ID: <20050328123651.91355.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126710 Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:07:40 From: "eggplant9998" : In the first book, Scabbers AKA Peter Pettigrew AKA Wormtail, heroically defends Ron and Harry by biting Goyle on the finger. In light of what we learn about this particular rat in later books this act of nobility seems somewhat out of character. Why did he do it? Hans: In my post, "Character Discussion: Peter Pettigrew" I pointed out that Jo is personifying the human ego by Scabbers. His job is to defend his owner. When Ron was under threat he did what the ego is meant to do: defend. When his job was finished he went back to sleep, which is what the ego does when it's not needed. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 28 13:45:53 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:45:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hans-Pineal Message-ID: <20050328134553.56674.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126711 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:31:19 From: "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" : Hans Andrea wrote in message/126560 : << I have mentioned that Dumbledore's office is sure to symbolise the pineal gland. This signifies to me that Bill personifies the crown chakra. >> I don't understand what connection there is between Dumbledore's office and Bill Weasley. I also don't understand why the chronological pattern was broken by putting Arthur & Molly (third eye chakra -- isn't third eye the pineal gland?) between Charlie (throat) and Bill (crown). Hans: Well done, Rita! I often leave gaps in my posts to see whether anyone reads them. You have found two gaps that indeed do need further explanation. Of course you don't understand the connection between Dumbledore's office and Bill. That's because I haven't explained it. The pineal gland is indeed the third eye and theoretically is the organ of perception par excellence. When the alchemist has completed the process of transmutation the pineal gland "opens" and he can perceive with the new consciousness. This is where the Holy Sanctifying Spirit (Dumbledore) will dwell. In addition there comes about a spiral shaped etheric connection between the head and the heart which looks like a moving spiral staircase. Obviously Dumbledore's office! Remember all the tinkling silver instruments (of perception)? There are many other indications which point towards Dumbledore's office as the pineal gland, but I think this is enough. This is described in "The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross", where you will see other clues. If Bill is the crown chakra he must indeed be connected to the pineal gland, because, of all the connections between the chakras and the physical glands, the relationship between the pineal gland and the crown chakra is the most intimate one of all. I guess I would have to say that if Dumbledore's office symbolises the physical gland, Bill personifies the crown chakra. Why? Only he and Charlie are interchangeable as far as I can see. 1. Ginny is obviously the root chakra connected to the sacral plexus as this is where the events of the neutralising of the kundalini (the basilisk) and the subconscious mind (Tom Riddle) take place. Harry found her there unconscious (the chakra stands still when the soul-fire reaches it) and when he had finished with the basilisk and Tom she woke up (the chakra started turning the other way). 2. Ron is obviously the spleen chakra because of the clues of his middle name, his ownership of Scabbers, his love of food, etc. No doubt here. (see my post on him) 3. Fred and George are obviously the navel chakra, and more specially the twin adrenal glands. By the way, when we last see Fred and George in part 5 of the septology we see two red-headed boys wearing green coats. The colour of their chakra is: red and green! 4. Percy can't be anything else than the heart chakra because this is where ambition lives. The legend of Parsifal and the quest of the Holy Grail is the vital clue. In addition the thyroid gland plays a role in bringing the new soul-fire (Harry) to the head, which is exactly what Percy did in book 1 when he brought Harry to his room high up in the tower. 5. The pituitary gland can't be anyone but the Weasley couple, because, as I said in my post, this gland is the master gland and directs all the other ones. What could be a more appropriate personification of the master gland than calling it mummy and daddy? And it fits 100% because, as I said in my Arthur and Molly post (darn Yahoo with their new message archive so I can't find the number) this gland is divided into two lobes, one of which controls the heart (Molly) and the other the head (Arthur). As icing on the cake the brow chakra is half red, half indigo. If you have a look at a picture of it it takes your breath away! This is either the world's biggest coincidence or Jo has taken the idea of the red side of the chakra to give Arthur and his offspring red hair. 6. That only leaves Charlie and Bill as the remaining two chakras and glands. Obviously as the parents can only personify the pituitary gland, with the associated brow chakra, there is a break in the order, which can't be avoided. I doubt whether the pituitary gland can influence the pineal gland as it's sort of autonomous. As Bill is the oldest, and so the most independent, I really have to put him on top of the head as the crown chakra. However I'm open to correction as all I can do, like anyone else, is read the clues. Another very small clue is Bill's ponytail. As I said previously, Masters of Compassion like the Buddha are shown with a knot of hair on their head, symbolising the totally developed crown chakra. Jo could hardly show Bill as having a bun, but a pony tail is the next best thing. Perhaps. His courting of Fleur Delacour is probably a clue but I can't work it out. That obviously leaves Charlie as the throat chakra. I think his love of dragons is a clue but I don't know what it means. We'll probably find out. I want to thank you very profusely for your questions as it's great to know someone is reading my posts with enough interest to ask questions (and not just trying to knock them down). "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 28 13:59:18 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:59:18 -0000 Subject: Harry's emotional scars (was: In Defense of DD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126712 Lupinlore now: > > Harry bears many deep scars from his time at the Dursleys, and > > Dumbledore should acknowledge them and admit to his own > > culpability in their creation. John: > You make it sound as if Harry is in need of some serious therapy! > (Then again, perhaps he is, but only because of the trauma he has > experienced since entering the WW.) > > Just enlighten me with a few more of these "MANY deep scars" (my > emphasis) inflicted upon Harry. IMO he arrives at Hogwarts, as DD > says, as normal a boy as could be expected under the circumstances; > and, in fact, a good deal healthier than many kids. Sure he has > his flaws; just don't confuse those inherent in his person with > the "scarring" inflicted by the Dursleys. SSSusan: I am in agreement with John. Here's this kid who has lived through a nasty, nasty situation with the Dursleys, and yet he is able to make friends right away with Ron, shortly thereafter with Hermione; he seems to get on well with his fellow Gryffindor classmates; he knows how to laugh and have fun; he has a sense of right & wrong [in the big issues, if not in the little rule-bending behaviors :-)] and a sense of duty which is much deeper & more fully developed than many people's his age (or any age). How many 11- or 12-year-olds (or any age, for that matter) would've said, "Try to STOP Snape? No way!" or "Go AFTER Ginny? Are you nuts? Let someone else do it!" But not Harry. He has a very strong sense of watching out for the greater good and of doing his part (even if he tends to go a little farther than many people think he should in that!). I don't see in this the evidence of an individual with many deep emotional scars. Now, I'm not saying there has been *no* lasting effect on Harry of living with the Dursleys. Think of the scene in GoF where Molly hugs Harry after the graveyard ordeal. He had no recollection of *ever* being hugged like that, as if by a parent. This is incredibly poignant for us readers to read, true, and it may equate to an emotional scar (certainly to an emotional longing) in Harry. So that's one example, possibly. We know Harry doesn't ask enough questions. Is that a scar or is that typical teen behavior (or even JKR protecting her secrets for a 7-book series)? We know Harry doesn't turn to adults as often as would be helpful for him, and this may be a result of his upbringing. This is the example with the best canon support, I think. But all in all, I don't see these many deep scars you've suggested. I see a situation where a child might easily be *expected* to have developed many scars, but I don't see it *in actuality* in Harry. Any one of *us* might have come out of that experience deeply scarred, but for whatever reason, I don't think Harry did; he is an amazingly resilient young man. Some would point to Harry's behavior in OotP as evidence of a young man deeply scarred, but it can be explained, as John suggested, mostly by the horrors which occurred in the graveyard and by his frustration at being left out of the loop by DD during his 5th year. I don't think we're seeing a manifestation of a bunch of deep scars from years & years previous as much as we're seeing reactions to present-time frustrations & grief. So I guess that's a long way of saying, along with John, that I'd be interested in knowing these examples of many deep emotional scars in Harry. Siriusly Snapey Susan From nrenka at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 13:59:58 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:59:58 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Pettigrew (WAS: House Elves and Slavery) In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a050327181937cc24dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, elfundeb wrote: > Debbie: > > True, but Ron was raised in a very different kind of family. He > learned at home that "Mudblood" prejudice was offensive. Sirius > grew up in a family where the use of the word was evidently > acceptable, and if the Blacks traveled only in like-minded circles, > he would not have learned of other points of view until he arrived > at Hogwarts. In fact, one backstory I've considered is that the > trouble started between Sirius and his family when he arrived at > Hogwarts and was sorted into Gryffindor, infuriating his family. There is the possibility of some other views in the Black family: I'm thinking of Uncle Alphard. What else I was trying to bring up is that it *does* occur that people decide, from an insider perspective precisely without much exposure to the outside, that the behavior of the inside is distasteful and wrong. Given what Sorting seems to indicate about a person in this essentialist world, Sirius going into Gryffindor is a good indication that he had already developed some differences of thinking about the world from his parents, and becoming friends with James Potter (pureblood family that doesn't seem to be pureblood obsessed) probably only made it worse. > If JKR wants there to be pathos and meaning in Pettigrew's story, > then she made a big mistake in her portrayal of Peter in the > Pensieve scene. It's one thing for Transfiguration to be more > difficult for him than the others, but his supposed inability to > remember werewolf characteristics in the OWL exam is just silly and > badly overplays his alleged inferiority. I think his > accomplishments when Sirius hunted him down after Godric's Hollow > establish that he was much more capable than Sirius (or McGonagall) > gave him credit for. Dumbledore must have recognized more, but > Dumbledore is known for giving changes to those whose talents are > dismissed by others. I see no reason why he would not give > Pettigrew a chance, in spite of the risks. I think it's a deliberate narrative strategy. :) We've been set up with two presentations which really don't fit together comfortably at all; Marauders as great group of friends, Marauders as petty and dismissive of their own members. What is missing is enough information to put both aspects into one picture, because at present too many things don't make sense. [The other, underrated possibility, is that we're extrapolating from age 15 to age 21 with excessive ease.] To make it really interesting, I think this has us- the-readers doing precisely what Harry does; confused by the disjunction of material, we tend to swing pretty hard to one side or another (I've seen at least one 'James Imperio'ed Lily' theory out there, for example), when the actual thing is more in the middle. Peter and his role are awfully ambiguous at present, hence the formulations of the DISHWASHER crew that it's possible that Peter is actually an agent of Dumbledore, or that he's innocent and Lupin really did it. It's the kind of story where minimal revelations can have maximal effects on how we see the character--much like Snape's character arc, which has been set up so that any number of "Ahas!" could be the right one (but we're probably only going to get one). > I don't think Lily would have acceded to the plan because she > thought Pettigrew was a "weak, talentless thing." As I wrote above, > Pettigrew's character only makes sense if he is in fact smarter than > JKR (and Sirius and McGonagall) seem to believe. Sirius, though, > was a bad choice as secret keeper because he was the obvious choice. If I understand you correctly, then, Sirius is to blame for suggesting Peter because he thought he was the weak, talentless thing (James presumably agreeing?), but Peter was sharp enough to fool Dumbledore and Lily, two people who are always presented to us as fairly acute. It's all rather tangled, but I don't see the basic presentation of the facts changing a terrible amount (famous last words, I know), which means there's some explainin' to be done. -Nora gets up and going through the rain From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 28 14:12:12 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:12:12 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Pettigrew (WAS: House Elves and Slavery) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126714 Debbie said: > True, but Ron was raised in a very different kind of family. He > learned at home that "Mudblood" prejudice was offensive. Sirius > grew up in a family where the use of the word was evidently > acceptable, and if the Blacks traveled only in like-minded circles, > he would not have learned of other points of view until he arrived > at Hogwarts. Nora responded: > What else I was trying to bring up is that it *does* occur that > people decide, from an insider perspective precisely without much > exposure to the outside, that the behavior of the inside is > distasteful and wrong. SSSusan: I think Nora's right in this. Look at Harry. He could easily have become a selfish, whining, angry bully based on his "inside" experience. But in fact he ended up quite different indeed from the example set within his family. And, since this appears to have developed in Harry prior to his entering Hogwarts -- without a whole lot of other "outside" examples for influence -- it's seems at least possible that Sirius experienced something similar. Siriusly Snapey Susan From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 28 18:08:03 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:08:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's emotional scars (was: In Defense of DD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > So I guess that's a long way of saying, along with John, that I'd be > interested in knowing these examples of many deep emotional scars in > Harry. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Well, that's a fair question. Unfortunately, you have already dealt with the examples I would probably raise. :-). That's fair enough. I think that we are dealing with different perceptions of what is and is not pathological behavior (or evidence of emotional distress, if you prefer a less clinical term). Nora or Alla or I could list the behaviors we see as evidence of scarring from the Dursleys and other Dumbledore decisions, others would say there are other sources (or that this is not emotional distress at all), we would disagree - perhaps very strongly, and round and round we go. To take this in a slightly different direction, I think the series is on the edge of a series of revelations about JKR's view of these things (i.e. emotional scarring). We have hints we are going to learn a lot more about Voldy in the next couple of books, and Snape as well. Some have postulated that the theme of emotional scarring will be very big. Others that emotional scarring will have no place as a major theme in the narrative and that "free choice" will be the deciding factor. We have hints in both directions. Dumbledore's constant talk about "what's good over what's easy" points to free will, but then the talk about how "some wounds run too deep for the healing," points another way. Then, that's making the presumption (which I feel is always a dangerous one) that JKR really HAS a very clear philosophy on the matter. It's entirely possible that she will come down somewhere in the middle, or give us yet more mixed signals and contradictory episodes. Either way, I suspect we are going to have a great deal more to argue about very shortly. Lupinlore From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 18:53:06 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:53:06 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126716 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > Karen: there > was certainly no professional sport played in Britain during WW II - apart from anything else, all the professional sportsmen were > fighting in the war. As certain of the older Hogswarts students > will be doing so too in some capacity or other, I wouldn't be at all > surprised if Quidditch was one of the first casuaties. > > Vivian: I doubt it. JKR has already made several references regarding > Quidditch in the next book. One that comes to mind is that there will > be a new captain and that he/she might not want Ron on the team. > Also, the character of Ginny has already told Harry that when > Umbridge gets kicked out of school he'll be able to play on the team > again. Ginny also makes it known that she wants to play Chaser in > sixth year. Well, Ginny doesn't know that there will be Quidditch or not, she just assumes there will be, but I agree with you we'll have Quidditch. For one thing, it's really important to give the kids, especially Harry, as normal a school experience as possible. Nothing should be cut unless it has to be. I bet JKR's statement that next year's captain may not want Ron on the team is a red herring. the captain's likely to be Harry, or Ginny, or Ron. From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 19:17:57 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:17:57 -0000 Subject: Harry's emotional scars (was: In Defense of DD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126717 Siriusly Snapey Susan: "So I guess that's a long way of saying, along with John, that I'd be interested in knowing these examples of many deep emotional scars in Harry" Lupinlore: "I think that we are dealing with different perceptions of what is and is not pathological behavior (or evidence of emotional distress, if you prefer a less clinical term)." Indeed. "Deep emotional scars" suggests a settled pathology, a fundamental trauma in Harry left by the Dursleys. The resilience that Harry shows, his ability to make friends, his compassion, his leadership qualities, his assumption of obligations and duties to a larger world belie the notion that this is a troubled kid. Would that more kids were like him. If we're discussing the notion that the Dursley experience influenced Harry, I'm with you. Some part of Harry's tendency not to go to adults when he'd be smart to do so probably belongs to his time at Privet Drive, where going to adults was useless or worse. But does this prove a "deep emotional scar?" Maybe it's semantics, but I'd call it a bad habit Harry would do well to change. Here's the distinction to me: I predict that in HBP Harry will unlearn that habit. I've believed since OoP that Harry and Dumbledore will work more closely together than ever (the covers hint at it). I believe Harry's resentment against Dumbledore will heal. Harry's mental state will be much, much better than it was in OoP. What we saw was, I believe, the product of the stress Harry was under; rejected by his schoolmates, held to ridicule and worse in the wizard world, persecuted by Umbridge, reviled by Snape. Now almost all of that is gone. If Harry bore deep emotional scars from the Dursleys, shaking it off wouldn't be so easy. July we'll know. Jim Ferer From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 28 20:35:01 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:35:01 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition and Dobby's Motivation In-Reply-To: <20050327025354.4E66C23CFE@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126718 Hannah originally: > > I do think Dobby acted of his own volition, having heard what Lucius > > planned, and fearing that Harry would be endangered. Whether there > > was an actual specific threat to Harry, or whether Dobby was just > > concerned that he'd be hurt accidentally, I don't know. Thursday replied: > But what I don't understand is *why* Dobby would do this. Yes, Dobby is apparently a *very* unusual house elf but this just seems so far out of house elf norm. This wasn't an impulsive act. Dobby was stopping Harry's mail all summer. He continued interferring all the way thru the school year. It seems to me so far out from the norm that I started looking for options, hence the 'LM sent Dobby' theory. I would be very interested to see more complete arguments for the 'Dobby acts on his own' theory. > Hannah: For the very reason Dobby said he did it. Because he cared about the great Harry Potter who made LV go away and improved the lives of the majority of house elves, and he wanted to warn him. I don't see Dobby's behaviour here being inconsistent with the little we know about renegade house elves from canon. In OotP, when DD is talking about Kreacher, he says that the elf couldn't reveal information that he had been directly ordered not to. But he managed to bend the rules when a direct order wasn't prohibiting him. So unless Lucius said to Dobby 'don't go and warn Harry Potter' Dobby is still able to do it. Dobby knows that his master wouldn't approve, and that he is acting against his master's interests, hence the need to punish himself. Furthermore, in OotP we see Dobby breaking a direct order, from Umbridge, in tipping Harry off about the raid on the DA. If Lucius sent Dobby, it undermines the whole character and purpose of the elf. He'd have lied to Harry, and carried on lying after he was freed. It doesn't tie up with Dobby's very real dislike of his master. It dpesn't explain why Dobby indicated to Harry the Lucius was the one that handed Ginny the diary in the first place (at that stage, it couldn't possibly have helped Lucius). Why did Dobby injure himself if Lucius had told him to act? And why was Dobby unable to tell Harry certain things? I think Dobby's desire to warn Harry is in line with his character development throughout CoS, GoF and OotP. While the behaviour is far out from the house elf norm, I think it's not any more far out than Dobby's actions in GoF, for example, which are canonically of his own volition. And we've seen from Kreacher that Dobby isn't the only elf who's willing to go a long way to insubordinate and break the spirit of the rules that govern elves. Anyway, that's a more complete picture of why I think Dobby acted of his own accord. Hannah From kreneeb at hotmail.com Mon Mar 28 20:59:21 2005 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (Kasey Baker) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:59:21 -0700 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > Karen: there > was certainly no professional sport played in Britain during WW II - apart from anything else, all the professional sportsmen were > fighting in the war. As certain of the older Hogswarts students > will be doing so too in some capacity or other, I wouldn't be at all > surprised if Quidditch was one of the first casuaties. > > Vivian: I doubt it. JKR has already made several references regarding > Quidditch in the next book. One that comes to mind is that there will > be a new captain and that he/she might not want Ron on the team. > Also, the character of Ginny has already told Harry that when > Umbridge gets kicked out of school he'll be able to play on the team > again. Ginny also makes it known that she wants to play Chaser in > sixth year. Jim Ferer said: Well, Ginny doesn't know that there will be Quidditch or not, she just assumes there will be, but I agree with you we'll have Quidditch. For one thing, it's really important to give the kids, especially Harry, as normal a school experience as possible. Nothing should be cut unless it has to be. kitten: I agree... Ginny wouldn't know one way the other... but I think she's right, and its going to stay... we have quotes from JKR that suggest it is... Saying that, I wouldn't mind seeing Quidditch gone from the next two books... I think Quidditch was really fun and interesting in the first couple of books, but reading the fifth... it got really old really fast... you knew who was going to catch the snitch and so, consequently, you knew who was going to win the match... I mean... even without Harry playing, they still won!!... IMHO Quidditch is fast becoming dull, a waste of perfectly good page time... the only reason I would find it interesting again is to see another team, preferably Hufflepuff, give Gryffindor the Whoopin' they so richly deserve. -g- Jim Ferer: I bet JKR's statement that next year's captain may not want Ron on the team is a red herring. kitten.... Yes, it would be a funny red Herring, if Ron becomes Captain. The one person who wanted Ron off the team during the fifth book was Ron himself... LOL... Honesly... I don't really care if Harry or Ron is Quidditch captain in the next book... either way, they both deserve it... Jim Ferer: the captain's likely to be Harry, or Ginny, or Ron. kitten: Oh no!!! NOT GINNY!!! she has been playing for the team for how long?... don't get me wrong, I love her, even with her "sudden" appearance in the fifth book... but I would most definitely cry Mary-sue if she ends up Quidditch captain, with only playing for half a season... and having other people who have played on the team longer and have much more leadership skills then she has been shown to have. It would be horribly written... almost on a fanfic level. Personally I think its down to... Harry, Ron, and, (if she is returning) Katie Bell... I don't see Ginny being in the running at all... just my two knuts. kitten... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 21:03:23 2005 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:03:23 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126720 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, -p wrote: > -I have a nagging suspiscion that JKR may keep Harry off the > Quidditch pitch for good. > > Just because Umbridge has been discredited doesn't mean everything > is hunky-dory does it? What if Harry's school Quidditch days are > over? The interesting thing is that at the end of OOTP, Harry is contemplating his fate and the seriousness of the war to come and so forth, and notes that the other students are worried about Quidditch and other 'rubbish.' A.J. From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 21:36:38 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:36:38 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126721 > Karen: > Something that has ocurred to me before is will there even be any > Quidditch in books 6 & 7 - after all there will be a war on won't > there? I know that a lot of people on this site are American and > their homeland wasn't affected in the same way: Hollywood didn't > stop making films so I assume that sports also carried on, but there > was certainly no professional sport played in Britain during WW II - > apart from anything else, all the professional sportsmen were > fighting in the war. As certain of the older Hogswarts students > will be doing so too in some capacity or other, I wouldn't be at all > surprised if Quidditch was one of the first casuaties. > Tammy: I think that Quidditch is a huge stress reliever for the kids. I'd imagine that Dumbledore would probably argue to keep Quidditch simply because it provides a little bit of normalcy for the students during a hectic and terrifying time. And if JKR ends up cancelling Quidditch, I'd have to be more than a little disappointed that she didn't think of it that way. From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Mar 28 21:40:22 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:40:22 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "A.J." wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, -p wrote: > > -I have a nagging suspiscion that JKR may keep Harry off the > > Quidditch pitch for good. > > > > Just because Umbridge has been discredited doesn't mean everything > > is hunky-dory does it? What if Harry's school Quidditch days are > > over? > > The interesting thing is that at the end of OOTP, Harry is > contemplating his fate and the seriousness of the war to come and so > forth, and notes that the other students are worried about Quidditch > and other 'rubbish.' > > A.J. That is very true, A.J. Nevertheless, I have a strong suspicion that we will see Harry on the Quidditch Pitch again. Recreation is even more important in war than in peace, and I can't imagine Hogwarts shutting down one of the chief means of diversion, although I suppose I could see Quidditch being restructured to lesson the aspect of house rivalry (i.e. volunteer teams or the like). Similarly, I can't imagine the lifetime ban being enforced against Harry. But as you say, Harry hardly seems in a Quidditch mood at the end of OOTP, does he? I suspect we will see several factors combine to bring Harry back to the pitch. Especially, I can imagine pressures from his friends to play, as it is the one reliable source of recreation available to him (not to mention that they, and McGonnogal, will play on the House Loyalty theme). I can even imagine him being ordered to play by Dumbledore. After all, going from the Boy who Lived to the Boy who Sank into a Longlasting Funk isn't wouldn't do anybody any good. Lupinlore From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 21:47:25 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:47:25 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition and Dobby's Motivation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > > If Lucius sent Dobby, it undermines the whole character and purpose > of the elf. He'd have lied to Harry, and carried on lying after he > was freed. It doesn't tie up with Dobby's very real dislike of his > master. It dpesn't explain why Dobby indicated to Harry the Lucius > was the one that handed Ginny the diary in the first place (at that > stage, it couldn't possibly have helped Lucius). Why did Dobby > injure himself if Lucius had told him to act? And why was Dobby > unable to tell Harry certain things? > a_svirn: Basically, I agree, but Dobby could have been set up. Just like he was set up by Crouch/Moody, when he staged a conversation with McGonagall about jellyweed. But that would mean that Lucius is aware of his elf's delicate sensibilities and personal sympathies and that would be certainly out of character. a_svirn From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 28 22:45:29 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:45:29 -0000 Subject: The Droobles Blowing Gum Wrappers - Mystery Solved? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126724 Tinglinger wrote: > I finally figured out why Alice Longbottom is so fixated on > Droobles Blowing Gum Wrappers, and in doing so, found how > Sirius probably screwed up big-time as the Potter's > Secretkeeper. > What if Sirius as secretkeeper wrote the Potter's Hiding > Place down on paper and then DIDN'T PROPERLY DESTROY IT? > And what if Pettigrew found the paper and took it to > Voldemort, where its authenticity can be verified either > by Regulus Black or the Black family crest that appeared > on the paper? Once Voldemort had the location, the Potters > were doomed. > > I don't believe that Pettigrew was ever the Potter's > Secretkeeper as everyone claims. I can't beleive that > Sirius would be that stupid given the low opinion everyone > has of the little rat. McGonagall went on a rant with Madame > Rosmerta as to how stupid and useless Pettigrew was. Why > would Sirius think that changing secretkeeper to Pettigrew > would work ? > So i feel that > Sirius Black never intended to tell Pettigrew where the > Potters were hidden. > > When the hiding places were set up or shortly thereafter, > Sirius showed a certain piece of paper to the Longbottoms > (just like Moody showed Harry in OOP). Then Sirius got > careless and didn't destroy the slip of paper revealing > the Potter's hiding place. Voldemort knew that it was > authentic because either the paper was marked with the > Black crest from a ring, or Regulus was able to > authenticate Sirius' handwriting. > This relieves Pettigrew from having any brains, > only treachery and the ability to dumpster dive. > > So the Potters were done in by Sirius' carelessness and > Pettigrew's treachery. The lie that Pettigrew was made > secretkeeper was told to disguise the real guilty party - > Sirius Black. Hannah: I applaud you on a good conspiracy theory - it's pretty hard to find new ones. On the other hand, I don't actually think it's right. If Sirius and not Peter was secret keeper, then why did DD believe his story? He must have performed Legilimency on Sirius when he spoke to him that evening in PoA. If Sirius was lying about Peter being SK, then DD would have known. Secondly, why didn't Peter deny being SK when Sirius confronted him in the shack? I'm sure he'd have been very quick to deny it. And how could Sirius be sure that Peter was to blame for passing on the dropped piece of paper if that *was* what happened? Sirius' behaviour immediately after GH (giving Hagrid his bike and saying he wouldn't need it any more) suggests he knew immediately that Peter was responsible. If the information got to LV through a carelessly misplaced piece of paper, then how did he know it was Peter that showed him? Sirius had the idea of using Peter as SK for the very reasons you cite for him not being it. He says it himself; 'Who would suspect a weak, talentless' person like Peter? Sirius Black, James Potter's closest friend, best man at his wedding, Godfather to his son, is the obvious choice of SK. DE's could have captured him and forced the location out of him using Veritaserum or the Imperius Curse. So they used Peter instead, hoping that if he stayed in hiding and kept his head down, LV would be so busy chasing Sirius, the decoy, that it would buy time. Sirius has his faults, but I do not think that dishonesty on that scale is one of them. If he truly had been SK and accidentally betrayed Lily and James through a careless act, I think he would be the first to admit to it. Lying about it - especially so elaborately - is the action of a coward, something that Sirius definitely is not. I think the gum wrappers are a plot device used effectively to show the terrible sadness of Neville and his mother's situation. I tend to dislike theories that she is somehow passing on coded messages to him, as I think if she had that level of mental capacity left, she would care more about relating properly to her son than trying to pass some vague warning that he'd probably never understand. That's why I think it won't work. But it was fun discussing it anyway. Hannah From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 28 23:07:16 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:07:16 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126725 -p wrote: > > I've been reading plot theories on how Ginny will be a Chaser and > Ron will be Keeper and Harry will be Seeker again next year - Why > does everyone want to put all the popular characters on the team? > -I have a nagging suspiscion that JKR may keep Harry off the > Quidditch pitch for good. > > Just because Umbridge has been discredited doesn't mean everything > is hunky-dory does it? What if Harry's school Quidditch days are > over? Hannah: I don't think the ban will be enforced. Quidditch is one of things a lot of readers - particularly younger readers - really like about the books. If JKR cuts it out then she's denying some readers one of their favourite things about the stories. And really, for it to have the same impact, it needs Harry to be playing. In OotP she couldn't even be bothered to describe the final match from Harry's spectator POV. Quidditch is also a great plot device for the rivalry between various houses, for camaraderie between Gryffindors, and for Harry to be attacked/ injured. So I think Quidditch will definitely be on, and Harry will definitely be playing. Ginny, I think, will become Chaser (she said she would prefer that to Seeker). Harry will return as Seeker (he has a gift for it), and I don't see why Ron can't remain as a Keeper. Ron performed very well in his final match, when he no longer felt pressured by the presence of the twins. I don't think that's too many main characters on the team. Besides, people 'want' them there because that is what is strongly suggested by canon. Members of the Quidditch teams from all houses tend to become main/ important characters anyway. JKR had no problem with having three main characters (Harry, Fred and George) on the team in the first books. Just my opinion Hannah From apollovibes at yahoo.com Mon Mar 28 18:06:48 2005 From: apollovibes at yahoo.com (apollovibes) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:06:48 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126726 Karen: Something that has ocurred to me before is will there even be any Quidditch in books 6 & 7 - after all there will be a war on won't there? I know that a lot of people on this site are American and their homeland wasn't affected in the same way: Hollywood didn't stop making films so I assume that sports also carried on, but there was certainly no professional sport played in Britain during WW II - apart from anything else, all the professional sportsmen were fighting in the war. As certain of the older Hogswarts students will be doing so too in some capacity or other, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Quidditch was one of the first casuaties. -- apollo: I don't see either the first war or the upcoming second one to be anything like a WWI / WWII style of war. Much less the state the U.K. was in during WWII. >From the descriptions given (disappearances, trusting no one, murders, FEAR) it sounds more like a Cold War with espionage (most prevalent in OotP) leading the way with Covert and Black Ops dealing with assassinations (on the D.E. side) and intelligence (on both sides) with small battles like the one in the DoM. Yes, this such as Quidditch would be at risk, but DD's not a fool, there might be extra precautions taken. It doesn't seem as if quidditch was cancelled the first time around either. Maybe it's just personal preference on this, but I would be slightly disappointed to see a Braveheart style battle on Hogwarts' grounds. From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Tue Mar 29 02:02:19 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:02:19 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? Alternate View. Message-ID: <65.421404b5.2f7a112b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126727 In a message dated 3/27/2005 10:58:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, bboyminn at yahoo.com writes: I predict - Keeper - unknown (Neville? Creevey? Transferred Slytherin? Other?) Seeker - Ginny Beaters - Ron and Harry Chasers - Dean, Seamus, Katie Bell Captian - Harry in the beginning, but Ron by the end. Remember, you heard it here first. Steve/bboyminn **************************************** Chancie: Umm.. Well of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion but why would Ginny stay on as Seeker? She herself says that she's rather be chaser, and Harry has only missed the Snitch once in all the games he's played. Why would the team keep Harry from being seeker knowing that he's the best there is? Wouldn't that only be hurting themselves? I do agree with the fact that Umbridge will not have an impact on Harry's future in Quiddich. I predict: Harry will continue with Quiddich, and be seeker Ron will stay on as keeper (due to his final win in OoP) Ginny, Katie Bell and ??? Chasers Dean and Seamus Beaters Ron will be Gryffindor Captain. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 02:12:50 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:12:50 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126728 > Jim Ferer: the captain's likely to be Harry, or Ginny, or > Ron. > > kitten: Oh no!!! NOT GINNY!!! she has been playing for the team for how long?... don't get me wrong, I love her, even with her "sudden" appearance in the fifth book... but I would most definitely cry Mary-sue if she ends up Quidditch captain, with only playing for half a season... and having other people who have played on the team longer and have much more leadership skills then she has been shown to have. It would be horribly written... almost on a fanfic level. Personally I think its down to... Harry, Ron, and, (if she is returning) Katie Bell... I don't see Ginny being in the running at all... just my two knuts. > Lindsay replies: My money is on Katie Bell, since she will be a seventh year. But she will have been on the team as long as Harry, since in his first year she would have been in her second, and was on the team at that time (since we know Harry was the only first year in a hundred years to make a House team). So honestly, it *could* go to Harry, but I am betting on Katie - because after all, Harry did miss half a year of Quidditch. And as for whether or not there will be Quidditch, I am of the opinion there will be. After all, Ludo Bagman was a Quidditch champ during the first war, so they obviously didn't stop Quidditch then. --Lindsay From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 29 03:58:08 2005 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (Ravenclaw Bookworm) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:58:08 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126729 Karen: Something that has ocurred to me before is will there even be any Quidditch in books 6 & 7 - after all there will be a war on won't there? I know that a lot of people on this site are American and their homeland wasn't affected in the same way: Hollywood didn't stop making films so I assume that sports also carried on, but there was certainly no professional sport played in Britain during WW II - apart from anything else, all the professional sportsmen were fighting in the war. As certain of the older Hogswarts students will be doing so too in some capacity or other, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Quidditch was one of the first casuaties. vmonte responds: I doubt it. JKR has already made several references regarding Quidditch in the next book. One that comes to mind is that there will be a new captain and that he/she might not want Ron on the team. Bookworm: Karen's comment about sports during wartime sent me on a history hunt ;-) I found several bits of info: 1. The list of NCAA Division I-A national football champions includes the WWII years. (www.answers.com) 2. In professional football's early days, Washington was one of the game's most powerful clubs, capturing two league crowns and posting ten consecutive winning records from 1936 to 1945. (http://www.nflhistoryguide.com/wr/history.htm) 3. The Great Depression of the 1930s and World War II (1939-1945), however, drained many of the early professional franchises of money and players. (http://www.nflfootballhistory.net/begin.htm) 4. [Baseball] Players, coaches and umpires enlisted, teams held war bond drives, and equipment was collected to send to those serving overseas. On the homefront, baseball provided entertainment to those working to support the war effort. For those serving overseas, it was an important connection to the lives they had left behind. (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/education/primary_sources/world_wa r_ii/) Even though the teams were affected by the war, both baseball and football continued in the US during WWII. I agree with Vivian/vmonte that Quidditch will continue. It is Harry's biggest strength ? the way he won the first Task, one of his "happiest moments" was the first time he flew a broom, a major loss during OoP. During the summers he can't wait to get back to his friends and to Quidditch. IIRC, at one point he says that flying is the only time he feels free. Ravenclaw Bookworm From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 29 06:42:38 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:42:38 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? Alternate View. In-Reply-To: <65.421404b5.2f7a112b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126730 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, chnc1024 at A... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/27/2005 10:58:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, > bboyminn at y... writes: > > I predict - > > Keeper - unknown (Neville? Creevey? Transferred Slytherin? Other?) > Seeker - Ginny > Beaters - Ron and Harry > Chasers - Dean, Seamus, Katie Bell > > Captian - Harry in the beginning, but Ron by the end. > > Remember, you heard it here first. > > Steve/bboyminn > > > > **************************************** > > Chancie: > > ...everyone is entitled to their own opinion but why would Ginny > stay on as Seeker? She herself says that she's rather be chaser, > ... Why would the team keep Harry from ... seeker knowing ... he's > ..best ...? ... > > I ... agree ... Umbridge will not ... impact ...Harry's ... > Quiddich. > > I predict: > > Harry ... seeker > Ron ... keeper ... > Ginny, Katie Bell and ??? Chasers > Dean and Seamus Beaters > > Ron will be Gryffindor Captain. > > Chancie bboyminn: I've had this belief that Harry and Ron would be Beaters for years, believe it or not. Part of this theory allows for the fact that Harry WANTS to be Seeker and Ron wants to be Keeper, but they will sacrifice those desires for the greater good of the team. So, to your question, the Team won't /make/ them do this, it will be a strategic move that Harry and Ron will make for the greater good of the Team. Since I've had this notion for years, I formulated it before I saw how BAD the current Beaters are. Now that the current Beaters are the weakest link on the team, if they have any chance of winning, they are going to have to figure out how to field the strongest team with what they have to work with, and I believe that will involve making some personal sacrifices. I also think that Beaters are critical to the on-going game. Without effective Beaters, the Chasers are crippled, and can't do their job properly. True, Gryffindor did manage to scape a win, aided greatly by Ron's goal Keeping, but you can't build a whole effective team around one or two good players. They are going to have to do their best to move people into positions that serve the team rather than the individual. Certainly, I don't have a strong foundation to build this on, but the recent changes to the team point to new Chasers and marginal Beaters being the weak links. So, when I look at the available players, my first objective is to fix those two problems. Also, remember that in the first book Oliver Wood comments that Harry would make a good Beater, and the narrative comments that Seamus considers himself a good and experienced flyer. So, I do see some hints pointing in this direction, though I must admit that they are weak. None the less, in a few months we shall see if my prediction was right. Steve/bboyminn From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 29 07:01:25 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (elady25) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:01:25 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? Alternate View. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126731 snip > Certainly, I don't have a strong foundation to build this on, but the > recent changes to the team point to new Chasers and marginal Beaters > being the weak links. So, when I look at the available players, my > first objective is to fix those two problems. Also, remember that in > the first book Oliver Wood comments that Harry would make a good > Beater, and the narrative comments that Seamus considers himself a > good and experienced flyer. So, I do see some hints pointing in this > direction, though I must admit that they are weak. > > None the less, in a few months we shall see if my prediction was right. > > Steve/bboyminn imamommy: This probably makes no sense, but what if somehow Hermione wound up playing Quidditch? I know, she doesn't give the quills off a knarl what happens in the inter-house competition, and as far as we know she hasn't ridden a broom since first year, but just what if... What position would she play, and would she be good or terrible? It would certainly take her out of her comfort zone. Maybe what will happen with Quidditch this year is what I keep waiting for: Pro scouts coming to see Harry. Even in first year, IIRC, he's considered better than Charlie Weasley, who could have gone on to play for England. I can't believe he's never, ever thought seriously about professional quidditch. I don't know that he'd ever choose that path ("if he survives," that is) but it seems like something so obvious to have considered. Scouts would provide perhaps a necessary complication to playing the game, especially if we add in all the usual falling off the broom, bludgers gone psycho, attacks by dementors, and other crazy things that generally happen when we see Hary play quidditch. Anyway, I hope there is quidditch in the book because, sadly, we don't have W-ESPN :( imamommy From idcre at imap2.asu.edu Tue Mar 29 08:47:48 2005 From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 08:47:48 -0000 Subject: Half-blood Voldemort, Half-blood(?) Snape. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126732 Whether or not Snape turns-out to be the HBP, if he's a half-blood regardless (possible, as JKR would not state whether or not he was pure-blood, only that, "...he's no muggle-born"), then that might explain a possible appeal to his becoming a follower of Voldemort in the first place. Voldemort loathed his muggle father for abandoning him and his witch mother. If Snape endured some similar situation with his own father and mother, then he might have felt an instant connection to Voldemort via those similar circumstances (especially if Voldemort manipulated Snape's emotions along those lines). BM P.S.: Speaking of "Half-blood Prince," it need not refer to actual royalty..."prince" could be an endearing name one calls another, such as a father calling his daughter his "little princess" (or a mother calling her son her "little prince"). From kaye60cc at yahoo.com Tue Mar 29 02:29:05 2005 From: kaye60cc at yahoo.com (kaye60cc) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 02:29:05 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126733 -p wrote: > I have a nagging suspiscion that JKR may keep Harry off > the Quidditch pitch for good. > > Just because Umbridge has been discredited doesn't mean everything > is hunky-dory does it? What if Harry's school Quidditch days are > over? I think Harry and Ron will be too busy doing other stuff to worry much about Quidditch. Their days of being children are quickly coming to an end because of their responsibilities to Dumbledore's army and the order, whether they are ready for them or not. "kaye60cc" From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Mar 29 11:20:40 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:20:40 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126734 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kaye60cc" wrote: > > -p wrote: > > I have a nagging suspiscion that JKR may keep Harry off > > the Quidditch pitch for good. > > > > Just because Umbridge has been discredited doesn't mean everything > > is hunky-dory does it? What if Harry's school Quidditch days are > > over? "kaye60cc": > I think Harry and Ron will be too busy doing other stuff to worry > much about Quidditch. Their days of being children are quickly coming > to an end because of their responsibilities to Dumbledore's army and > the order, whether they are ready for them or not. Geoff: But in the real world, soldiers on active duty have time to relax and unwind. They can't be concentrating on Voldemort and the war every hour of every day. Changing the subject, correct me if I'm wrong but I think that Steve, in mesage 126730, has been influenced by the "medium that dare not speak its name". I believe it is only in the film that Oliver Wood suggests that Harry might make a good Beater. There is only a brief mention of the Bludgers during Oliver's teach-in on Quidditch (PS "Hallowe'en" pp.124-125 UK edition). Geoff Visit http://www.aspectsofexmoor.com for views of the Exmoor National Park and the heritage steam locomotives of the West Somerset Railway. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Mar 29 12:04:30 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:04:30 -0000 Subject: FILK: (I Can't Take No) Sadist Action Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126735 (I Can't Take No) Sadist Action To the tune of (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction by The Rolling Stones - words and music by Mick Jagger and Keith Richards Hear a MIDI at http://www.skunkworx.org/music.stuff/r.html Dedicated to Ginger THE SCENE: The Hog's Head. It's open mike night, and ARGUS FILCH, having had one too many Mai-Tais, stumbles on stage to lament certain restrictions in his job description. FILCH: I can't take no sadist action, I can't take no sadist action And though my battle cry says to fry each wise guy I can't take no, I can't take no When I'm roaming through the halls and the twins come on all radical They're telling me Dumbledore is bannin' ruthless strangulation And he'll fire insubordination I can't take no. Oh, no, no, no. Hey, hey, hey That's what they say I can't take no sadist action, I can't take no sadist action And though I would imply each wise guy oughta die I can't take no, I can't take no Well, Umbridge writes a decree, and she say she gonna show `em How hard my whip can hit But the twins mutiny and summon a swamp And Delores has to quit I can't take no. Oh, no, no, no. Hey, hey, hey That's what they say I can't take no sadist action, I can't take no sadist action And though want to cry, "Crucify each wise guy!" I can't take no, I can't take no When I'm hearin' from my cat And she's spyin' this and she's spottin' that And we're tryin' to catch some git, like Potter But he thinks I'm just a bloody old joke As he sneaks `round in his magic cloak. I can't take no. Oh, no, no, no. Hey, hey, hey That's what they say. I can't take no, I can't take no I can't take no sadist action, no sadist action, No sadist action, no sadist action - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated today with 48 new filks) From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 29 13:09:17 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:09:17 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? Alternate View. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126736 > bboyminn wrote: > > I've had this belief that Harry and Ron would be Beaters for years, > believe it or not. Part of this theory allows for the fact that Harry WANTS to be Seeker and Ron wants to be Keeper, but they will sacrifice those desires for the greater good of the team. So, to your question, the Team won't /make/ them do this, it will be a strategic move that > Harry and Ron will make for the greater good of the Team. > > I also think that Beaters are critical to the on-going game. Without > effective Beaters, the Chasers are crippled, and can't do their job > properly. True, Gryffindor did manage to scape a win, aided greatly by > Ron's goal Keeping, but you can't build a whole effective team around > one or two good players. They are going to have to do their best to > move people into positions that serve the team rather than the individual. Hannah: I agree that Beaters are important, but I think that by far the single most important player in a Quidditch team is the Seeker. It's a fact that, usually, the team that gets the Snitch wins. I personally think the rules of Quidditch are a bit daft, because it makes all the goal scoring business seem rather a waste of energy, but that's the way it is. Having an excellent Seeker who's almost certain to get the Snitch is a much greater asset to the team than even a pair of good Beaters. After all, there are three Chasers and only two Bludgers, and they can use evasive flying to avoid them. Of course, it would be best to have good Beaters and a good Seeker. But given a choice, it makes much more sense to have a great Seeker. JMO Hannah From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Mar 29 14:14:12 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:14:12 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? Alternate View. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126737 Hannah: I agree that Beaters are important, but I think that by far the single most important player in a Quidditch team is the Seeker. It's a fact that, usually, the team that gets the Snitch wins. I personally think the rules of Quidditch are a bit daft, because it makes all the goal scoring business seem rather a waste of energy, but that's the way it is. Having an excellent Seeker who's almost certain to get the Snitch is a much greater asset to the team than even a pair of good Beaters. After all, there are three Chasers and only two Bludgers, and they can use evasive flying to avoid them. Of course, it would be best to have good Beaters and a good Seeker. But given a choice, it makes much more sense to have a great Seeker." Sure. When the Seekers decide 90% of the games, that's the first position to fill. The ideal Beaters are tough, muscular players who can bat the Bludger hard. The equivalent I can think of are baseball catchers (notoriously tough) or gridiron football linebackers. The ideal Chaser is fast, highly coordinated, with a tremendous spatial sense and excellent peripheral vision. The Chasers work together very closely and so shouldn't be changed if possible. The Keeper, if he's like goalies in other sports, is often the smartest player on the pitch. She or he has to be able to think strategically *and* tactically to anticipate what's coming. A Keeper doesn't have to be fast, but has to be very quick with the best lateral movement. The Keeper is very likely to be team captain because of the tactical mentality and because the Keeper can see the game unfold. The Seeker is the star, and a loner. (Sound like anybody?) Size is unimportant, even a drawback, maybe, because the Seeker is part race driver and part jockey. Vision is essential. Harry is a great Seeker for these reasons, but he also thinks tactically and flies in ways that help his teammates without being guilty of interference. I'd bet some Seekers look for the Snitch and that's it. The Seeker is the other position most likely to be Captain, also because the Seeker can see the big picture. Before anyone says anything, any position can be captain. Angelina's a Chaser. Keepers and Seekers, though, do get the best view of the whole game and that's an advantage. If a Seeker thinks beyond just finding the Snitch then that makes the Seeker even better. Jim Ferer From cat_kind at yahoo.com Tue Mar 29 15:29:40 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:29:40 -0000 Subject: Hans-Pineal In-Reply-To: <20050328134553.56674.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126738 > Catlady: I don't understand what connection there is between Dumbledore's > office and Bill Weasley. I also don't understand why the chronological > pattern was broken by putting Arthur & Molly (third eye chakra -- > isn't third eye the pineal gland?) between Charlie (throat) and Bill > (crown). > > Hans: > If Bill is the crown chakra he must indeed be connected to the pineal gland, > because, of all the connections between the chakras and the physical glands, > the relationship between the pineal gland and the crown chakra is the most > intimate one of all. > catkind: I have to say I find the fact that you have two things symbolising the pineal gland (and this isn't the only time you've had two symbols for the same thing) an indication that maybe just maybe you're getting a little carried away with your analogies Hans. Well, I expect you've already gathered I think that:-) I'll happily eat my words if a concrete connection between Bill Weasley and Dumbledore's office turns up in the last two books. (Though I can't really imagine how it would. Bill Weasley for the new Headmaster?) Will you eat yours if it doesn't? Actually, a lot of traditions have the crown chakra associated to the pituitary gland and the brow chakra to the pineal gland. (There is a good explanation of this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakras ) If you adopted that system you could have Molly and Arthur at the top after all! The rest of that end of the spectrum is easy to assign, as we know very little about Charlie and Bill. There's no evidence it's a bad analogy at least - I wouldn't say that makes it a good one. Unfortunately I find the rest of the assignations less believable. Being a dedicated kind of lunatic, I've done a little research here and collected as many different chakra traditions as I could find. The first question is, why should the Weasleys be chakras at all? The only reason I can see is that chakras are the only things in theology that come in an ordered row. Hans has made a fairly convincing argument for fudging the numbers so that at least we have the same number of Weasleys/chakras, though there's some room for disagreement there - people who split the brow chakra in two, for example, tend to split all the rest as well (excepting base and crown). The gonads are more separate than the two lobes of the pituitary gland, yet Ginny doesn't seem to be twins. If the Weasleys *have* to symbolise something, chakras is an obvious candidate, agreed. I'd prefer to go with the simpler hypothesis that the Weasleys don't symbolise anything particular. Here's Hans' table again: plexus - gland - chakra - Weasley (brain) - pineal - crown - Bill carotid - pituitary - brow - Arthur & Molly cervical - thyroid - throat - Charlie cardiac - thymus - heart - Percy lumbar - adrenals - navel - Fred & George solar - pancreas - spleen - Ron sacral - gonads - root - Ginny. catkind: I'm perplexed by the bottom three here. They're quite differently shuffled from any other traditions I can find, so I don't know whether to assign colours and ideas according to body part, plexus or gland. In particular, biologically speaking, the solar plexus and spleen are above the navel and lumbar region. Why do you have them below, Hans? More normal would be 3. solar plexus/pancreas/yellow - power, will, ... 2. sacral plexus/spleen,navel/gonads/orange - sexuality, food,... 1. base/adrenals/red - earth, security,... though admittedly there are many variations. Now to the assignation of Weasleys and chakras. Thanks for organising your argument here Hans, it was much more readable. > Hans: > 1. Ginny is obviously the root chakra connected to the sacral plexus as this > is where the events of the neutralising of the kundalini (the basilisk) and > the subconscious mind (Tom Riddle) take place. catkind: On the other hand, the base is the only chakra I've ever seen associated with the colour maroon, Ron's colour. The usual colour of red is not informative as all the Weasleys have "red" hair and belong to Gryffindor. The kundalini serpent is usually *below* the first chakra AFAIK, that would certainly have to be associated to Ginny if it's female sexuality. But to associate the first chakra to Ginny just on the basis of proximity seems a big jump. The first chakra itself is rarely about sexuality, it's usually about security and home and ideas like that. Sounds more like Molly than Ginny. Evidence inconclusive. Hans: > 2. Ron is obviously the spleen chakra because of the clues of his middle > name, his ownership of Scabbers, his love of food, etc. No doubt here. (see > my post on him) catkind: I've no idea what this chakra is or its other associations, it seems to be a mixture of various chakras in the literature. The second chakra is often orange, sexuality and food, which would be okay for pretty much anyone. Well, insofar as all the Weasleys except Charlie have shown an interest in the opposite sex, and they all have orange hair, and they all seem to have pretty healthy appetites as far as we've seen. Maybe Ron gets an extra point for eating near Harry more. Again, this is the only chakra I have associated to ambition in my collection, though admittedly only once. So Percy also gets a nose in here. Hans: > 3. Fred and George are obviously the navel chakra, and more specially the > twin adrenal glands. By the way, when we last see Fred and George in part 5 > of the septology we see two red-headed boys wearing green coats. The colour > of their chakra is: red and green! catkind: Hum. But Gred's Weasley-jumper colour is blue with yellow writing. They're a two-man rainbow! I don't think wearing green once gives them a serious association with the colour. And I repeat, everyone has red hair, so that proves nothing. Haven't we seen Ginny in green too? Can't really remember. The power/control bit of this chakra sounds a bit like Percy. Another question: What symbol do you actually mean with the green and red petals? What are the corresponding symbols for the other chakras? You don't seem to mention them. The chakras are usually given rainbow colours in order so this one would be yellow. Hans: > 4. Percy can't be anything else than the heart chakra because this is where > ambition lives. The legend of Parsifal and the quest of the Holy Grail is > the vital clue. In addition the thyroid gland plays a role in bringing the > new soul-fire (Harry) to the head, which is exactly what Percy did in book 1 > when he brought Harry to his room high up in the tower. catkind: But...but...the heart chakra has to be about love and emotion. Percy is not emotional at all compared to his siblings. Again, the association with ambition is new to me. (And thyroid was Charlie in your earlier post, not Percy.) If you want to associate Percy with the Holy Grail, that's kind of a whole new question. Hans: > 5. The pituitary gland can't be anyone but the Weasley couple, because, as I > said in my post, this gland is the master gland and directs all the other > ones. catkind: Fair enough, IF the Weasleys are chakras, Arthur and Molly would fit whichever one corresponds to the pituitary. As I say above, why not make it the crown chakra to boot? Or wait a mo, they could be the heart Chakra too, seeing as they are an actual presumed-romantic couple, and obviously showering love on the kids. Or the sexual chakra, whichever that is, seeing as they are clearly not backward in that area either. Hans: > this gland [ck: pituitary] is divided into two lobes, one of which controls the heart (Molly) and the other the head (Arthur) catkind: Note: these are the spiritual roles for the lobes, not biological ones if I understand correctly. This is a good fit to Molly and Arthur IMO - especially as it's the anterior lobe, Molly, which (biologically) controls the other glands. She's definitely more heart-oriented, though Arthur's not so much an intellectual as a geek I'd say. Also biologically, the pituitary is itself controlled by the hypothalamus. Is that by any chance Dumbledore, Hans? Hans: > That obviously leaves Charlie as the throat chakra. I think his love of > dragons is a clue but I don't know what it means. We'll probably find out. catkind: Hey, the dragons could be the parathyroid glands! Or maybe Charlie will have four kids. He'll have to hurry to get them in by the end of book seven though... I think the twins get a look-in here too. Not only is this chakra blue according to most lists, which is the twins' Weasley-jumper-colour, but it also has a strong association with creativity, one of their major talents. --------- In conclusion I'm finding Weasleys and chakras far too intertwined to get a clear set of analogues. --------- Hans (to Rita): it's great to know someone is reading my posts with enough interest to ask questions (and not just trying to knock them down). catkind: Maybe I'm imagining it, but you sound a little indignant there, Hans. If you don't like being disagreed with, this is probably not the place to present your theories. They argue about everything down to the colour of Snape's socks here, and I for one find it loads of fun :-) catkind From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Mar 29 18:09:31 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:09:31 -0000 Subject: HP Conventional Wisdom Watch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126739 In the spirit of NEWSWEEK Magazine, I thought I'd give a conventional wisdom (CW) watch on our favorite HP characters. This is based on a scan of posts from the past couple of months, and is entirely subject to all kinds of error. Feel free to add corrections, additions, detractions, and howls of rage. As I can't easily do nifty little arrows like NEWSWEEK, I'll use rising, falling, and mixed. HARRY POTTER: Rising. General thought is that he will rise out of the angst and pain so characteristic of his fifth year. How long this will take and how difficult it will be is a matter of debate, but most expect Harry's sixth year to be much better than his fifth, at least mentally and emotionally. ALBUS DUMBLEDORE: Mixed. Epitome of Goodness or Cold Manipulator? Well written hero or supposed icon of the good who fails to come across? Will HBP clear this up, or further stir the cauldron? He gets a slight lift from his appearance with on two out of three announced covers, seeming to indicate that he will have a prominent role in Harry's life and perhaps act to clear up the doubts about him in many minds. But this is counterbalanced by a suspicion in some quarters that his prominence on the covers may be his death sentence. SEVERUS SNAPE: Rising. The UK Adult cover indicates to many that his subject will be very important in the sixth book. He is also gaining as one of the candidates for the HBP. However, CW with out snarky potions master is always extremely volatile, and almost no one doubts there are twists in the roller coaster yet to come. REMUS LUPIN: Falling. His stature as a candidate for the HBP seems to have declined recently. Pippin's theory of an ESE!Lupin so far has few supporters, but the prominence of Dumbledore and Harry on the covers seems to work against the previously popular idea that he would step up to be a paternal figure for Harry in the sixth book. Also his disappointing passivity in OOTP still grates on some people's nerves. SIRIUS BLACK: Falling. CW is that he is dead and will remain that way. RON WEASLEY: Rising. He certainly became more prominent in OOTP, albeit by somewhat controversial plot twists. How this will play out is a matter of fierce debate, but he seems unlikely to fade into the background anytime soon. HERMIONE GRANGER: Falling. OOTP left many believing she badly needed a lesson in humility, if not a smack in the mouth. Her efforts with SPEW are not popular among readers, and many think she is doomed to embarrassment. SEAMUS FINNEGAN: Mixed. Not a good performance in OOTP, but a longshot for HBP. DEAN THOMAS: Rising. His possible relationship with Ginny may bring him more into prominence, and like Seamus he is a longshot for HBP. NEVILLE LONGBOTTOM: Rising. He showed signs of blooming in OOTP, and it is a trend that seems likely to continue. GINNY WEASLEY: Rising. Despite some distaste at her personality shift in OOTP, she seems unlikely to fade. Mark her as Gryffindor Chaser and the most likely candidate for Girlfriend-of-the-Boy-who-Lived. LUNA LOVEGOOD: Mixed. A favorite of JKR, and one of the few characters who seemed to connect with Harry at the end of Book V. However, indications are that among fans outside of internet circles, reaction has ranged from indifference to annoyance. PERCY WEASLEY: Falling. Early speculation that he might be a spy for Dumbledore has largely given way to a focus on Percy as a Weasley misfit and messed-up dude. MINERVA MCGONNOGAL: Mixed. Her strong personality is a breath of fresh air. But her handling of Harry in HBP gives new meaning to the word "maladroit." DRACO MALFOY: Falling. Expectations of a deepening of his character have been badly disappointed, and CW is that he is Most Likely to Take the Dark Mark. On the other hand, he still has a committed group that see potential in him. THEODORE NOTT: Rising. Most likely candidate for Good Slytherin. BLAISE ZABINI: Rising. JKR confirms we will see more of him. Like Theo, a candidate for Good Slytherin. RUBEUS HAGRID: Falling. His charm has worn off for many fans. And he seems to many to be the perfect candidate for Next Death. GRAWP: Falling. Of course, he was in the sub-basement already, so what can one say? NYMPHADORA TONKS: Rising. Neatest new character in OOTP, and seems likely to have a major roll in Voldy War II. ALISTOR MOODY: Falling. Moody? Whose that? ABERFORTH DUMBLEDORE: Rising. Will the smelly barkeep at the Hog's Head be the next DADA professor? GODRIC GRYFFINDOR: Rising. Possible HBP, and perhaps a match for the lion-like man described on JKR's website. LUCIUS MALFOY: Falling. Jail-bait and probably soon escaped felon. Lo how the mighty have fallen. NARCISSA MALFOY: Rising. Somebody has to fill Lucius' shoes, and JKR confirms we will see more of her. BELLATRIX LESTRANGE: Mixed. Scary villainess, but did she HAVE to go into the infantile act at the MoM? VOLDEMORT: Falling. Let's face it, he seems to be operating out of the Villain's Book of Cartoon Cliches. PETUNIA DURSLEY: Mixed. Hints we will learn more about her, and that there is more to learn. On the other hand, it has also been confirmed that she is barely in the book, and JKR seems to think she is too far gone to ever be redeemed. DUDLEY DURSLEY: Mixed. More to know about his experience with the Dementors, and hints from JKR that he MIGHT be redeemable. But also we know he is "just Dudley." SLYTHERIN HOUSE: Mixed. JKR does not seem to like them very much, and is not happy with the popularity of this house among fans. On the other hand, Theo seems a candidate for a Good Slytherin, and the Sorting Hat is talking about House Unity. But it seems awfully late in the day. Lupinlore From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 29 18:30:51 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:30:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Character Discussion: Gilderoy Lockhart Message-ID: <20050329183051.70044.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126740 As Ive pointed out in my essay, there are some remarkable similarities between The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross and Harry Potter. For example when Christian Rosycross enters the castle he sits down at a meal served up by invisible servants, just as happens at Hogwarts. And just like Harry, he sees candle-lights suspended in mid-air. Very soon after their entrance into the hall both parties are tested; Christian Rosycross by seven weights, Harry by the sorting hat. I want to draw your attention to the behaviour of some of the people whom Christian Rosycross observes just after he enters the hall. "In this hall there was a multitude of guests, emperors, kings, princes and lords, noble and ignoble, rich and poor, and all kinds of rabble.[] When the braggarts had satisfied their hunger somewhat and the wine had taken away their restraint, they began to vaunt and boast. One would prove this, another that, and the most sorry idiot made the loudest noise.[] They boasted about deeds which neither Sampson, nor Hercules with all their strength could ever have achieved. The one would discharge Atlas of his burden, another would draw forth the three-headed Cerberus (HP!) from Hell.[]There was one who heard the rustling of the heavens; a second said he could see Platos ideas, and a third could number Democrituss atoms. There were also not a few pretenders to perpetual motion. Many of them had a good understanding but unfortunately assumed too much of themselves." Does this bring anyone to mind? Later in The Alchemical Wedding these people are called makers of the Lapis Spitalauficus. This is an imitation of the Lapis Philosophicus, the Philosophers Stone. This is what I think Gilderoy Lockhart symbolises. He is the seeker who enters the School of Liberation with the motive of using it for his own selfish gain. He tries to impress everyone with his false Philosophers Stone. He uses Harry to further his own ends and we learn that he in fact cant do anything that he claims he can do in his books. But his end is the same as the false seekers in The Alchemical Wedding: he loses his memory. In Harry Potter Gilderoy (gold-leaf covered king) blows out his own memory by chanting obliviate with Rons defective wand. In The Alchemical Wedding these false seekers are given the oblivionis haustus, the draught of oblivion. The maker of the Lapis spitalauficus has his hart locked up, while Harrys hart is what saves him and Sirius. Jo, the depth of your work is unfathomable. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 29 18:56:04 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:56:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Chakras, glands & plexuses Message-ID: <20050329185604.79402.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126741 Thanks very much to cat_kind for his/her detailed reaction to my recent post on the chakras. I really appreciate the time put into it. I will reply in detail in due course. Just for now I want to correct a mistake I made. I wrote: In addition the thyroid gland plays a role in bringing the new soul-fire (Harry) to the head, which is exactly what Percy did in book 1 when he brought Harry to his room high up in the tower. catkind: Thyroid was Charlie in your earlier post, not Percy. Hans: Sorry I meant to say thymus. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Mar 29 19:28:02 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:28:02 -0000 Subject: HP Conventional Wisdom Watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: Hickengruendler: I will only answer where I have some questions or disagree with you completely. Therefore consider every character where I don't answer as an "I agree". Lupinlore: > SIRIUS BLACK: Falling. CW is that he is dead and will remain that > way. Hickengruendler: But we will see him again. JKR as good as told us so, when she said she couldn't tell. However, I hope he remains dead, and we will only see him shortly like Harry's parents in book 4 or 5. Lupinlore: > RON WEASLEY: Rising. He certainly became more prominent in OOTP, > albeit by somewhat controversial plot twists. How this will play out > is a matter of fierce debate, but he seems unlikely to fade into the > background anytime soon. Hickengruendler: Actually, I thought he was close to fading to the background in OotP. Yes, he had a lot of pagetime, but that's what you expect from Harry's best friend. He also had a subplot involving Quidditch, but I still think he had less of a role than in the previous books. I hope this threat won't continue and he won't become another Xander. On the other hand, I'm optimistic that this won't happen, since the story, and therefore Ron's development, too, is mostly planned from the beginning, while Xander's on "Buffy" was not. Lupinlore: > HERMIONE GRANGER: Falling. OOTP left many believing she badly needed > a lesson in humility, if not a smack in the mouth. Her efforts with > SPEW are not popular among readers, and many think she is doomed to > embarrassment. Hickengruendler: Yes, I agree partly with this. But I still hope she's proven right concerning SPEW in the end. I found Ron's view on this topic much more annoying. Hermione has to change her methods, but at least she realizes that something is wrong. Lupinlore: > SEAMUS FINNEGAN: Mixed. Not a good performance in OOTP, but a > longshot for HBP. Hickengruendler: I thought he had his best performance in OotP so far. Yes, he argued with Harry. But that was as much Harry's fault as his. They were two hot-headed teenagers, that's all. But I'm sure he won't be the HBP. In fact, I see some gruesome death in the future, with him not having as much DADA training as the other students. Lupinlore: > GINNY WEASLEY: Rising. Despite some distaste at her personality > shift > in OOTP, she seems unlikely to fade. Mark her as Gryffindor Chaser > and the most likely candidate for Girlfriend-of-the-Boy-who-Lived. Hickengruendler: Yeah, you are probably right. But I can't help myself, I find this character very boring. I hope book 6 will change it, but I currently so don't care what happens to her. Lupinlore: > LUNA LOVEGOOD: Mixed. A favorite of JKR, and one of the few > characters who seemed to connect with Harry at the end of Book V. > However, indications are that among fans outside of internet circles, > reaction has ranged from indifference to annoyance. Hickengruendler: Well, for what it's worth, I know three readers who are not in the internet circles, my mother, my aunt and one of my closest friends, and they all love Luna and my mother even said said she considers Luna to be the best character introduced after book 1. Lupinlore: > MINERVA MCGONNOGAL: Mixed. Her strong personality is a breath of > fresh air. But her handling of Harry in HBP gives new meaning to the > word "maladroit." Hickengruendler: Do you mean OotP? Or do you have an advanced copy of book 6? ;-) I absolutely loved McGonagall in OotP, and think her treatment of Harry was exactly right. Hogwarts was in a very difficult situation, and Harry needed someone to set his head straight regarding Umbridge. Or do you mean something else? Lupinlore: > DRACO MALFOY: Falling. Expectations of a deepening of his character > have been badly disappointed, and CW is that he is Most Likely to > Take > the Dark Mark. On the other hand, he still has a committed group > that > see potential in him. Hickengruendler: Yep. But I do think that he will get some development, now that Lucius is in prison. But it's really overdue, and I also don't expect much. Lupinlore: > NYMPHADORA TONKS: Rising. Neatest new character in OOTP, and seems > likely to have a major roll in Voldy War II. Hickengruendler: I'm not sure. I quite liked her, but she just screams "background character" to me. I think we will see her again, but I don't expect as much as most other readers seem to do. Lupinlore: > VOLDEMORT: Falling. Let's face it, he seems to be operating out of > the Villain's Book of Cartoon Cliches. Hickengruendler: Yes, but I have some hopes for HBP. We definitely will learn more about his past, and that's never bad. From kreneeb at hotmail.com Tue Mar 29 19:47:24 2005 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (Kasey Baker) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:47:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP Conventional Wisdom Watch References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126743 kitten... who is standing up to the plate because she actually thought of a couple... AMELIA BONES: Rising. Many feel that her brief roll in OotP wasn't for nothing. She is the best possibility for the next Minister of Magic... and with some bad guys that have to be put on trial and captured... her roll as head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement leads to the belief that she will have a bigger roll in HbP. VICTOR KRUM: Rising. JKR has said that we'll see him again... which leaves many readers debating in what capacity... maybe a catalyst to the budding relationship between Ron and Hermione? ERNIE MACMILLAN: Rising. His small supporting roll in OotP really showed a lot of promise... having a small band of readers giving him the headboy badge in seventh year. kitten In the spirit of NEWSWEEK Magazine, I thought I'd give a conventional wisdom (CW) watch on our favorite HP characters. This is based on a scan of posts from the past couple of months, and is entirely subject to all kinds of error. Feel free to add corrections, additions, detractions, and howls of rage. As I can't easily do nifty little arrows like NEWSWEEK, I'll use rising, falling, and mixed. HARRY POTTER: Rising. General thought is that he will rise out of the angst and pain so characteristic of his fifth year. How long this will take and how difficult it will be is a matter of debate, but most expect Harry's sixth year to be much better than his fifth, at least mentally and emotionally. ALBUS DUMBLEDORE: Mixed. Epitome of Goodness or Cold Manipulator? Well written hero or supposed icon of the good who fails to come across? Will HBP clear this up, or further stir the cauldron? He gets a slight lift from his appearance with on two out of three announced covers, seeming to indicate that he will have a prominent role in Harry's life and perhaps act to clear up the doubts about him in many minds. But this is counterbalanced by a suspicion in some quarters that his prominence on the covers may be his death sentence. SEVERUS SNAPE: Rising. The UK Adult cover indicates to many that his subject will be very important in the sixth book. He is also gaining as one of the candidates for the HBP. However, CW with out snarky potions master is always extremely volatile, and almost no one doubts there are twists in the roller coaster yet to come. REMUS LUPIN: Falling. His stature as a candidate for the HBP seems to have declined recently. Pippin's theory of an ESE!Lupin so far has few supporters, but the prominence of Dumbledore and Harry on the covers seems to work against the previously popular idea that he would step up to be a paternal figure for Harry in the sixth book. Also his disappointing passivity in OOTP still grates on some people's nerves. SIRIUS BLACK: Falling. CW is that he is dead and will remain that way. RON WEASLEY: Rising. He certainly became more prominent in OOTP, albeit by somewhat controversial plot twists. How this will play out is a matter of fierce debate, but he seems unlikely to fade into the background anytime soon. HERMIONE GRANGER: Falling. OOTP left many believing she badly needed a lesson in humility, if not a smack in the mouth. Her efforts with SPEW are not popular among readers, and many think she is doomed to embarrassment. SEAMUS FINNEGAN: Mixed. Not a good performance in OOTP, but a longshot for HBP. DEAN THOMAS: Rising. His possible relationship with Ginny may bring him more into prominence, and like Seamus he is a longshot for HBP. NEVILLE LONGBOTTOM: Rising. He showed signs of blooming in OOTP, and it is a trend that seems likely to continue. GINNY WEASLEY: Rising. Despite some distaste at her personality shift in OOTP, she seems unlikely to fade. Mark her as Gryffindor Chaser and the most likely candidate for Girlfriend-of-the-Boy-who-Lived. LUNA LOVEGOOD: Mixed. A favorite of JKR, and one of the few characters who seemed to connect with Harry at the end of Book V. However, indications are that among fans outside of internet circles, reaction has ranged from indifference to annoyance. PERCY WEASLEY: Falling. Early speculation that he might be a spy for Dumbledore has largely given way to a focus on Percy as a Weasley misfit and messed-up dude. MINERVA MCGONNOGAL: Mixed. Her strong personality is a breath of fresh air. But her handling of Harry in HBP gives new meaning to the word "maladroit." DRACO MALFOY: Falling. Expectations of a deepening of his character have been badly disappointed, and CW is that he is Most Likely to Take the Dark Mark. On the other hand, he still has a committed group that see potential in him. THEODORE NOTT: Rising. Most likely candidate for Good Slytherin. BLAISE ZABINI: Rising. JKR confirms we will see more of him. Like Theo, a candidate for Good Slytherin. RUBEUS HAGRID: Falling. His charm has worn off for many fans. And he seems to many to be the perfect candidate for Next Death. GRAWP: Falling. Of course, he was in the sub-basement already, so what can one say? NYMPHADORA TONKS: Rising. Neatest new character in OOTP, and seems likely to have a major roll in Voldy War II. ALISTOR MOODY: Falling. Moody? Whose that? ABERFORTH DUMBLEDORE: Rising. Will the smelly barkeep at the Hog's Head be the next DADA professor? GODRIC GRYFFINDOR: Rising. Possible HBP, and perhaps a match for the lion-like man described on JKR's website. LUCIUS MALFOY: Falling. Jail-bait and probably soon escaped felon. Lo how the mighty have fallen. NARCISSA MALFOY: Rising. Somebody has to fill Lucius' shoes, and JKR confirms we will see more of her. BELLATRIX LESTRANGE: Mixed. Scary villainess, but did she HAVE to go into the infantile act at the MoM? VOLDEMORT: Falling. Let's face it, he seems to be operating out of the Villain's Book of Cartoon Cliches. PETUNIA DURSLEY: Mixed. Hints we will learn more about her, and that there is more to learn. On the other hand, it has also been confirmed that she is barely in the book, and JKR seems to think she is too far gone to ever be redeemed. DUDLEY DURSLEY: Mixed. More to know about his experience with the Dementors, and hints from JKR that he MIGHT be redeemable. But also we know he is "just Dudley." SLYTHERIN HOUSE: Mixed. JKR does not seem to like them very much, and is not happy with the popularity of this house among fans. On the other hand, Theo seems a candidate for a Good Slytherin, and the Sorting Hat is talking about House Unity. But it seems awfully late in the day. Lupinlore Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue Mar 29 12:52:26 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:52:26 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126744 > Vivian / vmonte responds: > If DD is Flamel then it would make sense why his Patronus is a > Phoenix. (I wonder if he had any other aliases?) JKR has already > told us that a person's patronus is a reflection of the person. > > JKR also said in another interview that DD was about 150-years-old > and that Minerva was 75-years-old. Ok, wait, whose Patronus is a Phoenix, again? There's so much that's mentioned in interviews and left out of the books, which could SO contribute to the storyline, and so it's confusing to me if something must be explained Outside of the canon story. Makes me think it's almost bad on JKR's part, to leave out info like that. -_-;;; Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue Mar 29 13:05:42 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:05:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's emotional scars (was: In Defense of DD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126745 Lupinlore: >> To take this in a slightly different direction, I think the series is on the edge of a series of revelations about JKR's view of these things (i.e. emotional scarring). We have hints we are going to learn a lot more about Voldy in the next couple of books, and Snape as well. Some have postulated that the theme of emotional scarring will be very big. Others that emotional scarring will have no place as a major theme in the narrative and that "free choice" will be the deciding factor. We have hints in both directions. Dumbledore's constant talk about "what's good over what's easy" points to free will, but then the talk about how "some wounds run too deep for the healing," points another way. << Chys: JKR's done a pretty good job of showing the actual accumulation of emotional scarring in HP's case, beginning with GH event then after the abuse at the Dursleys, he has to take it at school too. (Taunting from children, the Daily Prophet, Snape looking down his hooked nose at him... Bad DADA teachers out to get him... something emotionally traumatic occuring like clockwork every year... emotionally messed up in my opinion, just from that, and not just the normal teenage angst.) Then there's the matter of DD, and what he did to Harry which is unforgivable, really. And what he did afterwards that struck a nerve with me, though it was explained away in a fashion which didn't settle my stomach: The worst thing you can do to a person is ignore them. I know this from experience. It makes them think they have no worth to you. For a whole year, DD did this to Harry, and we expect him to be a happy, normal, emotionally stable teenager as of the start of term next year and simply let it all slide? I think not. He's already starting to be moody in the sense that he's distancing himself from everything he's liked (school, friends... he's depressed, then there's the prophecy, and what he should have known all along- everyone he supposed to have trusted has LIED to him.) Just how far JKR goes with it in future books will make his emotional scarring (and behaviour afterwords) believable... or not. Chys From kennymod at yahoo.com Tue Mar 29 19:33:40 2005 From: kennymod at yahoo.com (kennymod) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:33:40 -0000 Subject: UK adult cover -- "Borage" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126746 Any context for Libalius Borage: All that I can find is that Borage is a herb, and found this basic info. For some reason, I don't think HBP is going to be about making summer gin cocktails. Though, the description below states that: "hardy annual has a messy, straggling habit." Borage is a nutritious, tasty, and attractive herb. Leaves have a cucumbery flavor and can be used to accent salads or mixed with other greens and steamed. Stems can be peeled and chopped to use like celery. The edible flowers can be used as a garnish or in salads, and when candied they make a beautiful decoration for cakes and pastries. I grow borage as a companion to my tomatoes. They improve the health of my tomato plants, and I could swear the tomatoes taste better when borage grows nearby! The bright blue, star-shaped flowers (which bloom most of the summer) make borage one of the prettiest herb plants, thought the dark green leaves are rather plain. The flavor of the leaves resembles that of cucumber. The plant will grow to a height of about 18 inches, and spread about 12 inches. This hardy annual has a messy, straggling habit. It is a native of northern Europe, and grows well in the temperate regions of North America. Cultivation Borage is not a fussy plant, but the richer the soil, the bushier the plant will be. It prefers full sun, and needs protection from wind as it is easily blown over. Seeds can be sown throughout the season, and once growth is established, it will continue to seed itself. Place plants close together so they can support each other. A plant or two in an indoor pot will provide leaves all winter, but it will need lots of sun. Borage is an excellent companion plant for tomatoes, squash and strawberries. The plant actually improves the flavor of tomatoes growing nearby. Culinary Uses ? Borage flowers and leaves are the traditional decoration for gin-based summer cocktails, and may be set in ice cubes to garnish other drinks. ? The flowers and young leaves may be used to garnish salads. dips, and cucumber soups. ? Candied borage flowers make attractive cake decorations. ? Chopped leaves can be added to soups and stews during the last few minutes of cooking. ? The leaves can be cooked with cabbage leaves (two parts cabbage, one part borage.) ? Borage does not dry well for culinary use. Medicinal Use ? Because it is a tonic plant for the adrenal glands, borage provides an invaluable support for a stressful lifestyle. ? Borage is rich in minerals, especially potassium. ? A tea made with borage helps to reduce fevers and ease chest colds. ? An infusion of borage acts as a galactogogue, promoting the production of milk in breastfeeding mothers. Other Uses ? Borage makes an excellent facial steam for improving very dry, sensitive skin. ? The flowers may be dried to add color to potpourri. "kennymod" From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 01:13:54 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:13:54 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126747 Chys wrote: Ok, wait, whose Patronus is a Phoenix, again? There's so much that's mentioned in interviews and left out of the books, which could SO contribute to the storyline, and so it's confusing to me if something must be explained Outside of the canon story. Makes me think it's almost bad on JKR's part, to leave out info like that. -_-;;; vmonte responds: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-scholastic- chat.htm Question: How old is old in the wizarding world, and how old are Professors Dumbledore and McGonagall? J.K. Rowling responds: Dumbledore is a hundred and fifty, and Professor McGonagall is a sprightly seventy. Wizards have a much longer life expectancy than Muggles. (Harry hasn't found out about that yet.) http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 What form does Dumbledore's Patronus take? Good question. Can anyone guess? You have had a clue. There was a little whisper there. It is a phoenix, which is very representative of Dumbledore for reasons that I am sure you can guess. Vivian :) JKR From tmar78 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 01:21:18 2005 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:21:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Things better for House Elves? (was Re: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition & Dobby's Motivation) In-Reply-To: <1112118711.12602.2644.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050330012118.87377.qmail@web14126.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126748 > Hannah: For the very reason Dobby said he did it. Because he cared about the great Harry Potter who made LV go away and improved the lives of the majority of house elves, and he wanted to warn him. Has anyone else wondered just how LV's fall improved the daily lives of British House Elves? They would all still be tied to the same families who would still be able to treat them just as ruthlessly as before. After all, as far as we know from canon, no one actually monitors HE living conditions, to make sure their being treated properly. So whats changed? Any thoughts? Tyler www.redmeat.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Mar 30 01:39:23 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:39:23 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] UK adult cover -- "Borage" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126749 In a message dated 3/29/2005 7:50:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, kennymod at yahoo.com writes: All that I can find is that Borage is a herb, and found this basic ============= Sherrie here: >From http://www.shee-eire.com/Herbs,Trees&Fungi/Herbs/Borage/Factsheet1.htm NAME : Borage GAELIC NAME : LATIN NAME : borago officinalis COMMON / FOLK NAMES : Bugloss, Burrage, Common Bugloss, Herb of Gladness. MEDICINAL PART : Herb, Flowers. PLACES OF ORIGIN : Ireland, Europe and cultivated elsewhere. HABITAT : Anywhere and everywhere. DESCRIPTION : Borage is an annual plant. The hollow, bristly, branched and spreading stem grows up to 2 feet tall. The leaves are bristly, oval or oblong-lanceolate, the basal ones forming a rosette and the others growing alternately on the stem and branches. FLOWERING PERIOD : The blue or purplish, star-shaped flowers grow in loose racemes from June to August. PROPERTIES : Aperient, Diaphoretic, Febrifuge, Galactagogue, Pectoral, Tonic Preparation and Dosage : Prolonged use of borage is not advisable. MAGICAL PROPERTIES GENDER : Masculine PLANET : Jupiter ELEMENT : Air ASSOCIATED DEITIES : Medb POWERS : Courage, Psychic Powers RITUAL USES Call on the Goddess Medb while asking for Courage, Inspiration and Insight into your Life. Use Borage as an offering to the Goddess. MAGICAL USES Carry the fresh blossoms to strengthen your courage, or place one in your buttonhole for protection when walking. A tea of borage will induces psychic powers. ================ Sorry about the formatting... Sherrie . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 03:14:09 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:14:09 -0000 Subject: DD's Patronus ( was Re: The Half-Blood McGuffin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > > What form does Dumbledore's Patronus take? > > Good question. Can anyone guess? You have had a clue. There was a > little whisper there. It is a phoenix, which is very representative of Dumbledore for reasons that I am sure you can guess. > Tonks now: "For reasons that I am sure you can guess"!!??? What did she mean by that??? Is DD imortal like the Phoenix?? Or because he has the Order of the Phoenix? But the Order is representative of Christ. I know everyone must be tired of hearing that, but it is what it is. Who is DD?? I know we have gone round on this before. But... "for reasons that I am sure you can guess" ... well I can't guess!!! Is it suppose to be that obvious? When I say that he is God, everyone says he is just a human. Well that doesn't make sense either. Is he God, Christ, Nicholas Flamel, or just some old wizard human with a bird??? I tend to think that he is God or maybe Christ, but my first guess is God. So go ahead folks, what does she mean??? I suppose that one could say that he is St. Peter, I could see that. But Hagrid has the Keys.. so Hagrid should be St. Peter. ??? Tonks_op From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 03:37:56 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:37:56 -0000 Subject: HP Conventional Wisdom Watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126751 Hickengruendler: I will only answer where I have some questions or disagree with you completely. Therefore consider every character where I don't answer as an "I agree". Alla: Yes, I will do the same thing. Lupinlore: SIRIUS BLACK: Falling. CW is that he is dead and will remain that way. Hickengruendler: But we will see him again. JKR as good as told us so, when she said she couldn't tell. However, I hope he remains dead, and we will only see him shortly like Harry's parents in book 4 or 5. Alla: Well, I hope he won't remain dead, but I do understand that the possibility of him coming back as fully alive is pretty slim. I do think though that we will see him not in the past, but in the present, coming back temporarily in some kind of spiritual form to help Harry. I think this possibility is rather strong, especially since besides the quote Hickengruendler mentioned ( JKR said that she won't answer in what form we will see Sirius, because she does not want to incriminate herself ), JKR also said that mirror will play a role. Lupinlore: HERMIONE GRANGER: Falling. OOTP left many believing she badly needed a lesson in humility, if not a smack in the mouth. Her efforts with SPEW are not popular among readers, and many think she is doomed to embarrassment. Hickengruendler: Yes, I agree partly with this. But I still hope she's proven right concerning SPEW in the end. I found Ron's view on this topic much more annoying. Hermione has to change her methods, but at least she realizes that something is wrong. Alla: SPEW is a VERY good example of how poor execution can turn me off VERY good intentions. I DO want Hermione to be right at the end in a sense that house elves will be free and being able to enjoy the freedom, but I am one of those who prior to Hermione being right want her to be smacked across her head and fall hard. NO, Hermione, you can't trick someone into being free, you really, really can't. :) Regardless of what happens to Hermione though ( whether she will be proven right or wrong), I seriously doubt that as member of the trio she is in any danger of fading into background. Lupinlore: GINNY WEASLEY: Rising. Despite some distaste at her personality shift in OOTP, she seems unlikely to fade. Mark her as Gryffindor Chaser and the most likely candidate for Girlfriend-of-the-Boy-who- Lived. Hickengruendler: Yeah, you are probably right. But I can't help myself, I find this character very boring. I hope book 6 will change it, but I currently so don't care what happens to her. Alla: Agree with Lupinlore. Whatever happens to Ginny, I don't see her as fading either. I find her to be a lot of fun now. :) Lupinlore: LUNA LOVEGOOD: Mixed. A favorite of JKR, and one of the few characters who seemed to connect with Harry at the end of Book V. However, indications are that among fans outside of internet circles, reaction has ranged from indifference to annoyance. Hickengruendler: Well, for what it's worth, I know three readers who are not in the internet circles, my mother, my aunt and one of my closest friends, and they all love Luna and my mother even said said she considers Luna to be the best character introduced after book 1. Alla: I think Luna has a great potential, but so far I need much more to really care about her. I mean I am pretty sure that JKR set her up to be right about a great deal of things and probably much to Hermione's annoyance, but I just don't feel Luna yet. :) Lupinlore: DRACO MALFOY: Falling. Expectations of a deepening of his character have been badly disappointed, and CW is that he is Most Likely to Take the Dark Mark. On the other hand, he still has a committed group that see potential in him. Alla: I see potential in him all right. :) Path of Darkness all the way. :) Lupinlore: VOLDEMORT: Falling. Let's face it, he seems to be operating out of the Villain's Book of Cartoon Cliches. Hickengruendler: Yes, but I have some hopes for HBP. We definitely will learn more about his past, and that's never bad. Alla: Yes, Hickendruendler learning about character's past is never bad, but I am afraid that for me it is a little too late to ever consider Voldemort as compelling evil. We'll see, maybe I will change my mind in July. Lupinlore: REMUS LUPIN: Falling. His stature as a candidate for the HBP seems to have declined recently. Pippin's theory of an ESE!Lupin so far has few supporters, but the prominence of Dumbledore and Harry on the covers seems to work against the previously popular idea that he would step up to be a paternal figure for Harry in the sixth book. Also his disappointing passivity in OOTP still grates on some people's nerves. Alla: I still hold hope for remus to get closer to Harry in HBP. I mean, I will be the first one to be happy if Dumbledore will become a real mentor for Harry, but you never know - the covers may just show the final moments of the book. That may leave some room for Remus during all year. Just my opinion of course and great post, Lupinlore. Alla From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 30 03:42:32 2005 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (Ravenclaw Bookworm) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:42:32 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? Alternate View. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126752 imamommy: This probably makes no sense, but what if somehow Hermione wound up playing Quidditch? I know, she doesn't give the quills off a knarl what happens in the inter-house competition, and as far as we know she hasn't ridden a broom since first year, but just what if... What position would she play, and would she be good or terrible? It would certainly take her out of her comfort zone. Bookworm: Here's another weird thought - what if Neville joins the team?? I just reread the quote in book 1 where Ron tells Harry that "...Neville would play Quidditch for England before Hagrid lets Dumbledore down." Another of Ron's wild predictions? I'm not arguing that this will happen, but if by some strange event Neville learns to fly without falling off his broom, watch out :-< Ravenclaw Bookworm From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 04:56:24 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:56:24 -0000 Subject: DD's Patronus ( was Re: The Half-Blood McGuffin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126753 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > What form does Dumbledore's Patronus take? > > Good question. Can anyone guess? You have had a clue. There was a > little whisper there. It is a phoenix, which is very representative of Dumbledore for reasons that I am sure you can guess. Tonks responded: "For reasons that I am sure you can guess"!!??? What did she mean by that??? Is DD imortal like the Phoenix?? Or because he has the Order of the Phoenix? But the Order is representative of Christ. I know everyone must be tired of hearing that, but it is what it is. Who is DD?? I know we have gone round on this before. But... "for reasons that I am sure you can guess" ... well I can't guess!!! Is it suppose to be that obvious? When I say that he is God, everyone says he is just a human. Well that doesn't make sense either. Is he God, Christ, Nicholas Flamel, or just some old wizard human with a bird??? I tend to think that he is God or maybe Christ, but my first guess is God. So go ahead folks, what does she mean??? I suppose that one could say that he is St. Peter, I could see that. But Hagrid has the Keys.. so Hagrid should be St. Peter. ??? vmonte again: Well, a phoenix is a bird that dies but is reborn again and again. If the phoenix represents Dumbledore it may just mean that Dumbledore has lived several lives, or that he lived the lives of several people. Confused yet? To make it simple, maybe it just means that Dumbledore has lived under several aliases. Vivian From elfundeb at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 04:58:39 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:58:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80f25c3a0503292058112997ca@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126754 -p wrote: > > -I have a nagging suspiscion that JKR may keep Harry off the > > Quidditch pitch for good. > > > > Just because Umbridge has been discredited doesn't mean everything > > is hunky-dory does it? What if Harry's school Quidditch days are > > over? A.J. wrote: > The interesting thing is that at the end of OOTP, Harry is > contemplating his fate and the seriousness of the war to come and so > forth, and notes that the other students are worried about Quidditch > and other 'rubbish.' I'm not a fan of the Quidditch sequences generally, but I'm quite certain that Quidditch will continue, because it is part of the structure of the books. Like the seven obstacles to the Philosopher's Stone in PS/SS, which appear to foreshadow the climax of each book, the Quidditch sequences in each book also foreshadows its climax. In OOP, Harry's anger and lack of control caused him to go after Draco (I think it was Draco; I don't have the books with me right now) which cost him his position on the team. Later on, Harry's anger and unwillingness to attempt to control his visions of the DoM led to the near-debacle there. His Keeper and substitute Seeker saved the Quidditch Cup (after the Keeper's mistakes nearly lost it for the Gryffs), and his real-life keeper, after making some mistakes of his own in OOP (like letting Snape teach Occlumency to Harry), arrived at the DoM in time to stave off further tragedy, while his #1 real-life chaser (and temporary captain, perhaps), Hermione, was busy maneuvering Harry (e.g., pushing him to start the DA, the Rita Skeeter interview). In HBP, I fully expect to see Harry back at Seeker, Ginny winning a Chaser position (which, as she says, is more suited to her), and Ron back at Keeper. But I doubt the outcome will be just another Quidditch Cup with Gryffindor's name on it; there will be a twist, and it will be something unexpected. That's the nutshell analysis; the full, pre-OOP version is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/48192 And the post-OOP update is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/88055 Debbie who thought the Quidditch scenes were boring until making this connection From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 05:16:57 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:16:57 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? Alternate View. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126755 imamommy: This probably makes no sense, but what if somehow Hermione wound up playing Quidditch? I know, she doesn't give the quills off a knarl what happens in the inter-house competition, and as far as we know she hasn't ridden a broom since first year, but just what if... What position would she play, and would she be good or terrible? It would certainly take her out of her comfort zone. Bookworm: Here's another weird thought - what if Neville joins the team?? I just reread the quote in book 1 where Ron tells Harry that "...Neville would play Quidditch for England before Hagrid lets Dumbledore down." Another of Ron's wild predictions? I'm not arguing that this will happen, but if by some strange event Neville learns to fly without falling off his broom, watch out :-< vmonte now: I thought of Neville too. I wonder if Luna will be on the Ravenclaw team? Remember when she rode on those disgusting invisible animals? How she appeared so natural on it's back? as though she had always been riding them? JKR also always mentions how she appears out of nowhere. Is she graceful? Does she have stealth? She reminds me a lot of Krum. Harry also notices how natural Krum appears as a flyer--as though he were a bird. I wonder if Luna will become the Ravenclaw seeker? Or maybe she will change houses and join the Gryffindor team. Vivian From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 06:04:30 2005 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:04:30 -0000 Subject: Harry's emotional scars (was: In Defense of DD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > To take this in a slightly different direction, I think the series is > on the edge of a series of revelations about JKR's view of these > things (i.e. emotional scarring). We have hints we are going to learn > a lot more about Voldy in the next couple of books, and Snape as > well. Some have postulated that the theme of emotional scarring will > be very big. Others that emotional scarring will have no place as a > major theme in the narrative and that "free choice" will be the > deciding factor. We have hints in both directions. Dumbledore's > constant talk about "what's good over what's easy" points to free > will, but then the talk about how "some wounds run too deep for the > healing," points another way. You write as though the two themes are mutually exclusive. Does Snape seem like an automaton? Lupin must be scarred -- does he still make choices? What about Draco, his mind poisoned by being raised by a Death Eater; does he have free will? Is the problem a tension between the ideas that our "scars" affect who we are, and yet it's our choices that ought to make us who we are? In real life, it is some of each. But Jo never said our choices make us who we are, Dumbledore said they *show* who we are -- it's a rephrasing of "by their fruits you shall know them." Dumbledore does not talk "constantly" about what's right over what's easy. He seems to know quite well that what's good is sometimes very very difficult. It must be partly why he gives second chances. A person, or a character, does not have a choice about what happens to him. What he has a choice about is what he does about it. So Harry finds himself, whether he likes it or not, born and then marked as the person who must face Voldemort. Theories are plentiful about what he'll decide to do with that knowledge. And if he lives through it, he cannot even choose to become an Auror. He can only choose to try. Try, or try not. There is no "do." As Harry realises at the end of GoF, "what would come, would come [he has no choice in the matter]...and he would have to meet it [in a manner of his own choosing] when it did." What role will past troubled relationships play? Details in book seven... ... Or I could be completely off my rocker. But I'm not worried - bring on the next two books! Annemehr From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 06:22:53 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:22:53 -0000 Subject: Things better for House Elves? - How? and Why? In-Reply-To: <20050330012118.87377.qmail@web14126.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney wrote: > > > Tyler: > > Has anyone else wondered just how LV's fall improved > the daily lives of British House Elves? They would > all still be... treat ... as ruthlessly as before. > ... So whats changed? Any thoughts? > > Tyler bboyminn: I think that while Voldemort was strong the Death Eater's were growing very full of themselves, acting as if they were all powerful and above the law. The killed and tortured for sport, and I suspect of few of those killed and tortured for sport were house-elves. Ruthless men entranced and intoxicated by their preceived invulnerability can be unbelievable cruel. But when Voldemort was vanquished, they suddenly had great incentive to rein it in and play it cool. They fought hard to convince the Ministry and their fellow wizards that they were just poor victims, and in reality, were fine upstanding citizens who just wanted to get back to their normal elf-loving, muggle-loving lives. Given that any continued ruthlessness or cruelty on their part would throw great suspision on their claims of having been enchanted (mind control curse) by Voldemort, I suspect they were on their best behavior and that improved the lives of Elves greatly. Just a thought. Steve From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Mar 30 06:47:57 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:47:57 -0000 Subject: UK adult cover -- "Borage" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kennymod" wrote: "kennymod": > Any context for Libalius Borage: > Other Uses > ? Borage makes an excellent facial steam for improving very > dry, sensitive skin. Geoff: Perhaps Voldemort could make use of some to make himself even more attractive to Bellatrix? :-) From thursdaymorning at outgun.com Wed Mar 30 06:36:40 2005 From: thursdaymorning at outgun.com (thursday morning) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:36:40 +0800 Subject: Lucius, Dobby and side #3 was:Lucius Malfoy's Ambition Message-ID: <20050330063640.E0BA823CFE@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126760 Greetings Hannah, Magda, Nora, Richard, a_svirn, Vivian, Valky et al, I've just discovered that my email has been soft bouncing apparently random messages (I didn't know it could do that) so I've gone back to yahoogroups to retrieve those I missed. This message is something of an amalgamation. I hope no one minds. To begin, I think the theories about Dobby's motivations in protecting Harry (in this thread at least) are heavily dependant on Lucius' loyalties. If Lucius is in fact a devoted Death Eater then Dobby had to have been acting entirely on his own. However I suspect that Lucius is on his own side. While this certainly does not place him in Dumbledore's camp it does mean he is not a loyal DE. He's all for seeing both sides tumble as long as he and his are left standing in the end. So, if Lucius is not a loyal DE, does not believe whole-heartedly in Voldemort's party line, why did he join in the first place? A snaky-faced lunatic cruciating his followers indiscriminately isn't going to acquire much of a following without one hell of a reputation. That reputation, however, could certainly be created by a charasmatic and handsome man advocating a change in government (with his followers in positions of power of course) and a change of policies that he says are certain to bring disaster. The comparisons to Hitler are easy to make but these are the roots of many revolutions throughout history. Lucius would have been a very young man at the time he was recruited. Young men are inclined toward dramatic actions and romantic gestures. Even now, at 40+ (very young by wizard standards), he paints a rather romantic image of himself. The frequent crucios and raving lunatic leader would have been later complications - sure signs of a doomed movement come too late for an easy out. Like Richard I think Lucius will be less concerned with *which* side wins than he is with ensuring his own survival - and it seems to me the light side would appear easier to manipulate than above lunatic leader. Therefore, he can be counted on to be sabotaging both sides as he determines it best suits his own ends. Situations where he can throw both sides off balance must be manna from heaven. Nora thinks we are overestimating Lucius' skills citing a lack of subtlety and suggesting he is "shockingly, a genuinely devoted ideologue." If Lucius is not as intelligent as he'd like to appear then I'd say she's exactly right. All aspects of my theories about both Lucius and Dobby are dependant on his being intelligent as well as goal oriented. If Nora is correct then Lucius is probably out of the game at this point. We can probably take it as given that Dobby was working on his own as well. However, relative intelligence levels aside, I don't see how Nora's theory accommodates Lucius' pride - the one characteristic of Lucius' I've never seen anyone argue didn't exist. Richard and a_svirn (interesting screenname) both think Lucius will manage to talk his way out of trouble if not actually turn his incarceration to his own advantage. I agree the ministry isn't going to make anything stick as things stand and, if he stays in Azkaban until the shit is done hitting the fan, I agree he'll have the perfect alibi no matter which side wins. I'm less certain he'll be able to stay out of a game I think he'd prefer to be manipulating. Would anyone care to speculate how he could continue to manipulate the situation from inside Azkaban? BTW Magda, I agree he wasn't "scouring Diagon Alley looking for a likely Weasley to frame." I do think he was in Diagon Alley with the diary on that particular day to plant it on *someone* and was delighted with the opportunity to plant it on a Weasley. The best plans are flexible. No one else seems to think that Dobby could have been sent by Lucius. a_svirn's suggestion that Dobby could have been set up is the only post that even approaches it. Ah, well, *I* still like the theory. As I hoped, you've all given me quite a lot to think about even if it didn't turn my theories around. Magda, you said you think Dobby was "too terrified and emotional all through COS for him to have been obeying his master's orders." I didn't read it like this. I even went back and reread ch2 of COS ('Dobby's Warning') and I really don't see Dobby terrified. JKR actually used the term 'slyly' when they got to the topic of the letters. No, I've always read Dobby as being a little drama que- er, drama elf. I don't think Lucius micromanaged Dobby's actions but rather sent him off with the barebones "Keep Harry Potter alive and preferably away from Hogwarts" and Dobby came up with the specifics of how to do so. I don't see how this prevents him from being an "overall good guy character who we're expected to admire." Hannah also expressed concern that "if Lucius sent Dobby, it undermines the whole character and purpose of the elf." How? Hannah, you also pointed out that Kreacher "managed to bend the rules when a direct order wasn't prohibiting him." Does the idea of only a general guideline instead of specific orders make you view my theory any differently? Vivian suggested Dobby was acting properly in warning Harry if Dobby used to be a Potter family elf. This made me wonder how long house elves live. Do we have any canon information? How would it affect the relationship between elf and master if Dobby was around to change Master Lucius's diapers and teach him his manners? Valky, I'm totally missing the gist of your theory. How would a diary left behind when he finished his NEWTs make him a pureblood? Here's another little tidbit question about the diary that all of you have probably already discussed: If the diary maneuver had been sucessful, would there be *two* dark lords running about? There wasn't any sign of the disembodied, older version in the Chamber waiting to occupy the newly restored young body. Newly restored young body appeared to be occupied already. Would the two versions work together? or compete for control of the DEs? How different might things have been in the later adventures if the younger version had survived and dominated? Goodness this list is fun. Thursday -- _______________________________________________ Outgun.com free e-mail @ www.outgun.com Check out our Premium services - POP3 downloading, e-mail forwarding, and 25MB mailboxes! Powered by Outblaze From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 08:46:41 2005 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (Andromeda) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:46:41 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a0503292058112997ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126761 > I'm not a fan of the Quidditch sequences generally, but I'm quite > certain that Quidditch will continue, because it is part of the > structure of the books. Like the seven obstacles to the Philosopher's > Stone in PS/SS, which appear to foreshadow the climax of each book, > the Quidditch sequences in each book also foreshadows its climax. > > In OOP, Harry's anger and lack of control caused him to go after Draco > (I think it was Draco; I don't have the books with me right now) which > cost him his position on the team. Later on, Harry's anger and > unwillingness to attempt to control his visions of the DoM led to the > near-debacle there. His Keeper and substitute Seeker saved the > Quidditch Cup (after the Keeper's mistakes nearly lost it for the > Gryffs), and his real-life keeper, after making some mistakes of his > own in OOP (like letting Snape teach Occlumency to Harry), arrived at > the DoM in time to stave off further tragedy, while his #1 real- life > chaser (and temporary captain, perhaps), Hermione, was busy > maneuvering Harry (e.g., pushing him to start the DA, the Rita Skeeter > interview). > > In HBP, I fully expect to see Harry back at Seeker, Ginny winning a > Chaser position (which, as she says, is more suited to her), and Ron > back at Keeper. But I doubt the outcome will be just another > Quidditch Cup with Gryffindor's name on it; there will be a twist, and > it will be something unexpected. > > That's the nutshell analysis; the full, pre-OOP version is here: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/48192 > And the post-OOP update is here: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/88055 > > Debbie > who thought the Quidditch scenes were boring until making this connection Andromeda now: Debbie, I loved your posts; I had missed those. I especially loved your pre-Oop(anti-)prediction of Ron as Keeper based on the potentially self-sacrificing nature of the position (seemed too obvious at the time?). I know a lot of people have made the chess game /Ron/ self-sacrifice connection; this makes an interesting addition. What is Ron going to have to do to save Harry in the end? He certainly didn't save him in Oop. Also, Harry as captain of Quidditch mirroring his eventual captaining of the war against Voldemort (post-Dumbledore?). We definitely may still see it happen. I think Quidditch will be back, both for the lovely metaphor you've outlined, but also because it is the thing that makes poor Harry the happiest. I agree with the person (just a day or two ago, sorry!) who said they were surprised Harry never thought about a professional Quidditch career, since it was clearly where his skills and interests lay, outside of surviving Voldemort! Maybe a sport will seem trivial in the aftermath of the revelations of Oop, but I think Harry will need both the distraction from real life and the lessons for real life Quidditch offers. Like you, I've never been a huge Quidditch fan, so I at first hoped maybe it would drop out. But I was also surprised to discover that the Quidditch sequences were favorites of my (young) daughter... so there may be an age thing there, although that shouldn't apply to the later books, since they are clearly not aimed at young children the way the early books were. In any case, thanks for your very well thought out ideas. -Andromeda From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 30 10:34:10 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:34:10 -0000 Subject: Lucius, Dobby and side #3 was:Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: <20050330063640.E0BA823CFE@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126762 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thursday morning" wrote: > Valky, I'm totally missing the gist of your theory. How would a > diary left behind when he finished his NEWTs make him a pureblood? > Valky: By possessing the body of a pure blooded wizard. My theory is hat simple. I am supposing that Tom was intending the diary as a way to escape the half muggleness in himself. He takes over a pureblood wuzard through the diary and then has a pureblood body of his own to possess. Thursday: > Here's another little tidbit question about the diary that all of > you have probably already discussed: > If the diary maneuver had been sucessful, would there be *two* dark > lords running about? There wasn't any sign of the disembodied, > older version in the Chamber waiting to occupy the newly restored > young body. Newly restored young body appeared to be occupied > already. Would the two versions work together? or compete for > control of the DEs? How different might things have been in the > later adventures if the younger version had survived and dominated? > Valky: JKR would only say that had the Diary succeeded in restoring Tom then Voldemort would be "more powerful". I can only assume that it would *be* decidely to Voldies advantage that the diary successfully possess Ginny, but how is left to speculation. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 12:16:21 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:16:21 -0000 Subject: Lucius, Dobby and side #3 was:Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126766 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thursday morning" wrote: Vivian suggested Dobby was acting properly in warning Harry if Dobby used to be a Potter family elf. This made me wonder how long house elves live. Do we have any canon information? How would it affect the relationship between elf and master if Dobby was around to change Master Lucius's diapers and teach him his manners? vmonte responds: We don't know how long Dobby has been with the Draco family though (that's if he ever worked for the Potters). Dobby could have started working for them after the death of Harry's grandparents. Vivian From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Wed Mar 30 11:14:11 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:14:11 -0000 Subject: Things better for House Elves? (was Re: Lucius Malfoy's Ambition & Dobby's Motiv In-Reply-To: <20050330012118.87377.qmail@web14126.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126767 Tyler: > Has anyone else wondered just how LV's fall improved > the daily lives of British House Elves? They would > all still be tied to the same families who would still > be able to treat them just as ruthlessly as before. > After all, as far as we know from canon, no one > actually monitors HE living conditions, to make sure > they're being treated properly. So what's changed? House elves are non-human, right? Consider what their lives would have been like if the bad guys had won. Nasty, poor, brutish and very, very short. So a defeat for LV is a victory for them, even if it leaves their living conditions unchanged. "deborahhbbrd" From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 11:23:31 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:23:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question on Sirius and his vault In-Reply-To: <20050330063640.E0BA823CFE@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <20050330112331.14223.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126768 Hello everyone: I am a newbie here--but have been lurking for some time to get a feel of the list before I made my first post. I do have a bit of a question that has been bugging me for a bit that maybe you people could clear up for me. Now I am not sure if this has been pondered here, but as I was re-reading POA again just recently when I had a Law and Order moment. At the end when Sirius sends Harry the note confirming it was him who sent the new broom and Crookshanks was the one who did the ordering I wondered--how did Crookshanks get the money from Sirius's vault without raising alarm bells? Didn't occur to the trolls to say no? Didn't whomever gave Crookshanks the money realize the vault the money was comming from belonged to a fellon? And if they did realize it why did TPTB let the money go, didn't they suspect the note could have been a cover for something worse? I do apologize if I sound like I am rambling here, but it's been nagging me as to how Sirius was able to pay for Harry's new broom and not get caught the instant his vault was accessed.... laurie From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 11:52:59 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:52:59 -0000 Subject: LV in the MOM Atrium; Harry's Possession? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126769 Ok, I have a question- The whole purpose of the OoTP event in the Ministry of Magic's Department of Mysteries was that Voldemort himself NOT be there, that Harry do the dirty work of retrieving the prophecy for him, correct? So then was Voldemort ever actually IN the Atrium that evening? Or was it that he was posessing Harry to attack Dumbledore? Could that be why Harry had no idea what was going on on the other side of the statue that was 'defending' him and herding him away- when in actuality it was LV posessing him and he just didn't know what was going on as he was too concerned with trying to get a good look at the unfolding action? He obviouly wouldn't see it from behind a statue, when he was the centerpoint of said action. This has been nagging at me, as I can't remember a scene where Voldemort's actually -seen- in that battle. DD could have been talking to LV through Harry, and couldn't that be why it sounded like LV kept trying to get DD to kill Harry? That he was not there at all, but fighting -through- him? Chys From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 11:56:32 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:56:32 -0000 Subject: Neville's future - was Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126770 Bookworm wrote: >Here's another weird thought - what if Neville joins the team?? I >just reread the quote in book 1 where Ron tells Harry that "...Neville >would play Quidditch for England before Hagrid lets Dumbledore down." >Another of Ron's wild predictions? > >I'm not arguing that this will happen, but if by some strange event >Neville learns to fly without falling off his broom, watch out :-< I have my own ideas about Neville's future. His confidence has increased massively in the last book and consequently his magical abilities have come on in leaps and bounds and I can only see that continuing. I strongly suspect that he is the one who will end up a teacher as per JKR's quote. She said, if I remember correctly something along the lines that one of them would be a teacher and not the obvious one (which to me implies not Hermione). I give you Neville Longbottom: Future permanent DADA teacher! Karen From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 12:44:05 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:44:05 -0000 Subject: Lucius, Dobby and side #3 was:Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: <20050330063640.E0BA823CFE@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126771 >Thursday wrote: > Hannah also expressed concern that "if Lucius sent Dobby, it > undermines the whole character and purpose of the elf." How? > Hannah, you also pointed out that Kreacher "managed to bend the > rules when a direct order wasn't prohibiting him." Does the idea > of only a general guideline instead of specific orders make you > view my theory any differently? > Here's another little tidbit question about the diary that all of > you have probably already discussed: > If the diary maneuver had been sucessful, would there be *two* dark > lords running about? There wasn't any sign of the disembodied, > older version in the Chamber waiting to occupy the newly restored > young body. Newly restored young body appeared to be occupied > already. Would the two versions work together? or compete for > control of the DEs? How different might things have been in the > later adventures if the younger version had survived and dominated? > > Goodness this list is fun. Hannah: I wasn't very clear there, I meant 'Dobby the specific elf' rather than 'elves in general,' but I phrased it badly. If Lucius sent Dobby, then he lied to Harry throughout CoS, and even once he was freed, never owned up. Dobby's intervention in CoS establishes his character, and if it turns out that he was only following orders, then his character development makes less sense. In CoS, Dobby's actions tell us he believes passionately in house elf rights and in trying to protect his kind (through protecting Harry). It shows that he is brave, and prepared to undergo injury and the danger of being found out by Lucius, in order to do what he thinks is right. He is established as unconventional for a house elf. And of course, we see that his interventions, though well meaning, often cause more trouble than they prevent. Dobby does his best to protect Harry, but isn't particularly good at it. It also establishes his near worship of Harry. This behaviour is backed up by his actions in GoF and OotP. But if Lucius actually sent him, most of these traits are undermined. It suggests Dobby cares little for Harry, isn't particularly politically minded or brave about it, isn't unconventional, and is in fact extremely sneaky, devious, and untrustworthy. That doesn't tie in with his later actions as a 'free-elf.' Now for part two, the question of the two Dark Lords. Had TMR been successful, there would theoretically have been two Voldemorts on the planet; one being restored!Tom, the other being Vapour!Mort. But I don't think TMR would have been willing to seek out his former incarnation. At that stage, LV was at his weakest, the Quirrel effort having failed, he was by his own admission at his lowest ebb. Even though Vapour!Mort would technically be the same person as TMR, I can't see TMR wanting to share power even with himself. I think he would have gone it alone as the Dark Lord, and maybe even attempted to sabotage his former self if he thought Vapour!Mort posed any threat to him. Hannah, who wholeheartedly agrees that HPfGU is fun! From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 12:41:39 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:41:39 -0000 Subject: The Quidditch Metaphor: The Role of Quidditch in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126772 Debbie wrote: PS/SS I've left this for last, because the parallels do not seem to work as foreshadowing like the parallels in the later books do. The primary parallel I see in the first Quidditch match, against Slytherin, is that the Trio suspect Snape both of trying to kill Harry during the Quidditch match and of trying to get through the obstacles to reach the Stone. However, since Harry doesn't learn that Snape was protecting him instead of jinxing him at the Quidditch match until he faces Quirrelmort, the element of foreshadowing is lacking. There is some foreshadowing in the Hufflepuff match, where Harry's grab of the Snitch in record time foreshadows his ability later on to retrieve the Stone instantly from the Mirror when he realizes he needs to keep Quirrelmort from getting it (ch. 17). However, I find this parallel less satisfying than those in the later books. That's the nutshell analysis; the full, pre-OOP version is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/48192 And the post-OOP update is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/88055 vmonte responds: Debbie what an excellent post! I have also written about quidditch as a metaphor for the war and the roles the children will play in that war. You have really written great stuff here! Now about your problems with quidditch during SS/PS: I believe that the quidditch in this book reflects what happened at Godric's Hollow. You wrote about the ease of Harry catching the snitch above. Well, look at how baby Harry was able to defeat Voldemort at GH. (And it was really due to the fact that his mother had placed a spell on Harry to protect him.) By the way, should we start thinking that Snape was at Godric's Hollow too? And what about Wormtail's role? Didn't Peter turn out to be as "two-faced" as Quirrell?! Peter and Quirrell were both perceived as being harmless, but in the end it turned out they were both working for the baddest guy of all. By the way, I knew that Ron would be the eventual Keeper in the series. It fits quite nicely with another theory of mine... Vivian From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 30 13:08:00 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:08:00 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? Alternate View. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126773 Bookworm: > Here's another weird thought - what if Neville joins the team?? I > just reread the quote in book 1 where Ron tells Harry > that "...Neville would play Quidditch for England before Hagrid > lets Dumbledore down." Another of Ron's wild predictions? > > I'm not arguing that this will happen, but if by some strange event > Neville learns to fly without falling off his broom, watch out :-< SSSusan: I don't think this is weird, Bookworm. Well, I mean, it may be still seem somewhat unlikely, but I wouldn't think it's as unlikely as Hermione. :-) Hermione is just not comfortable flying a broom, from what we've seen. But Neville, as many people have pointed out, gives indications that he's potentially quite talented & powerful; he just may need to learn to *harness* his powers. (Think about all the comments which have been made concerning what he might be able to do with a NON-hand-me-down wand.) Neville was able to get on the broom & fly right away first year, even if he couldn't control it, right? It may be that, similar to the changes we began to see in Neville re: DADA skills in OoP, along with the overall improvement in his self-confidence, we might just find that Neville can be quite a good flyer, indeed. Siriusly Snapey Susan From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 13:05:07 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:05:07 -0000 Subject: LV in the MOM Atrium; Harry's Possession? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126774 >Chys wrote: > Ok, I have a question- The whole purpose of the OoTP event in the > Ministry of Magic's Department of Mysteries was that Voldemort > himself NOT be there, that Harry do the dirty work of retrieving the > prophecy for him, correct? > > So then was Voldemort ever actually IN the Atrium that evening? > Or was it that he was posessing Harry to attack Dumbledore? Could > that be why Harry had no idea what was going on on the other side of > the statue that was 'defending' him and herding him away- when in > actuality it was LV posessing him and he just didn't know what was > going on as he was too concerned with trying to get a good look at > the unfolding action? He obviouly wouldn't see it from behind a > statue, when he was the centerpoint of said action. > > This has been nagging at me, as I can't remember a scene where > Voldemort's actually -seen- in that battle. DD could have been > talking to LV through Harry, and couldn't that be why it sounded like > LV kept trying to get DD to kill Harry? That he was not there at all, > but fighting -through- him? Hannah: I think LV was actually there in person. He didn't intend to enter the Ministry, but once things had gone so badly wrong, with his DE's being defeated, he decided to turn up and try to salvage the operation. Note that he didn't realise DD was there, in which case he wouldn't have risked it. But he thought he could get in quickly, grab the prophecy (which he didn't know had been destroyed until he got there), and kill anyone who got in the way. LV must have been there, or an image of him there, because Fudge and the other Ministry officials *saw* him there, that was how they were convinced. The whole point is that he's seen, at least at the end. I don't think he was fighting through Harry except in the bit where he actually possessed him. Harry didn't get the terrible pain in his scar until that happened. Hannah From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 30 13:26:09 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:26:09 -0000 Subject: Lucius, Dobby and side #3 was:Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: <20050330063640.E0BA823CFE@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126775 Thursday: > If the diary maneuver had been sucessful, would there be *two* dark > lords running about? There wasn't any sign of the disembodied, > older version in the Chamber waiting to occupy the newly restored > young body. Newly restored young body appeared to be occupied > already. Would the two versions work together? or compete for > control of the DEs? How different might things have been in the > later adventures if the younger version had survived and dominated? SSSusan: I have seen it proposed by those who believe Lucius *was* actually attempting to bring Riddle back to life [not a view I espouse, btw] that the ultimate hope for slippery, power-hungry, manipulative Lucius was precisely to bring *Riddle* back, as opposed to helping Voldemort return. The thought is that this might allow for a young man who's more *controllable* and *manipulatable* [wd?] than the grown Voldemort, and, thus, Lucius might be able to rein Riddle in while still utilizing his skills, and in the end he (LM) would be the one to gain the power and be in control. Siriusly Snapey Susan From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Mar 30 13:29:17 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:29:17 -0000 Subject: LV in the MOM Atrium; Harry's Possession? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126776 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Sage Lattes" wrote: Chys: > Ok, I have a question- The whole purpose of the OoTP event in the > Ministry of Magic's Department of Mysteries was that Voldemort > himself NOT be there, that Harry do the dirty work of retrieving the > prophecy for him, correct? > > So then was Voldemort ever actually IN the Atrium that evening? > Or was it that he was posessing Harry to attack Dumbledore? Could > that be why Harry had no idea what was going on on the other side of > the statue that was 'defending' him and herding him away- when in > actuality it was LV posessing him and he just didn't know what was > going on as he was too concerned with trying to get a good look at > the unfolding action? He obviouly wouldn't see it from behind a > statue, when he was the centerpoint of said action. > > This has been nagging at me, as I can't remember a scene where > Voldemort's actually -seen- in that battle. DD could have been > talking to LV through Harry, and couldn't that be why it sounded like > LV kept trying to get DD to kill Harry? That he was not there at all, > but fighting -through- him? Geoff: Am I misunderstanding you? - or are we reading the same book? To save me quoting about three apges of OOTP verbatim, let me precis what I see.... Harry tells Bellatrix that she should save her breath - Voldemort cannot hear her, whereupon said gentleman suddenly appears in the middle of the hall. He complains that the Death Eaters have allowed Harry to thwart him again and attempts to cast the Avadra Kedavra spell which is blocked by the wizard statue. Dumbledore appears in front of the golden gates and he and Voldemort exchange spells. Dumbledore has his "Tom" conversation and there is a further battle between them. Harry is quite able to see what is going on even though the statue is keeping him back. Then, when it seems that Voldemort is trying to flee and Harry attempts to come out from behind the statue, that is when the possession occurs.... (OOTP "The Only One He Ever Feared" condensed from pp. 716-719 UK edition) As far as I read it, this is a real event. Voldemort is not a "projection"; he has come, forced into the action because events have gone against his planning. So I don't follow your reasoning... From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 13:33:10 2005 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:33:10 -0000 Subject: UK adult cover -- "Borage" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126778 > "kennymod": > > Any context for Libalius Borage: > > > > > Other Uses > > ? Borage makes an excellent facial steam for improving very > > dry, sensitive skin. > > Geoff: > Perhaps Voldemort could make use of some to make himself even more > attractive to Bellatrix? > :-) Annemehr: No, no, no. You're missing the point; you have to look at all the book covers. First (B. children's), Harry and DD wrap themselves in flame in the course of a battle. Next (B. adult), they seek a remedy in the potions book, and finally (Scholastic), they brew themselves a steam bath for the faces they've burnt raw. :P From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 13:38:54 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:38:54 -0000 Subject: Lucius, Dobby and side #3 was:Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126779 Thursday: > If the diary maneuver had been sucessful, would there be *two* dark > lords running about? There wasn't any sign of the disembodied, > older version in the Chamber waiting to occupy the newly restored > young body. Newly restored young body appeared to be occupied > already. Would the two versions work together? or compete for > control of the DEs? How different might things have been in the > later adventures if the younger version had survived and dominated? SSSusan: I have seen it proposed by those who believe Lucius *was* actually attempting to bring Riddle back to life [not a view I espouse, btw] that the ultimate hope for slippery, power-hungry, manipulative Lucius was precisely to bring *Riddle* back, as opposed to helping Voldemort return. The thought is that this might allow for a young man who's more *controllable* and *manipulatable* [wd?] than the grown Voldemort, and, thus, Lucius might be able to rein Riddle in while still utilizing his skills, and in the end he (LM) would be the one to gain the power and be in control. vmonte now: Or then again, Thursday may have a point here. Lucius could've been thinking that the diary just might kill two birds with one stone. Maybe he was hoping that Diary Tom and Voldemort would wipe each other out (as well as wiping out Harry), and leave the playing field open for his own rise. Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 13:40:21 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:40:21 -0000 Subject: LV in the MOM Atrium; Harry's Possession? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126780 Chys wrote: Ok, I have a question- The whole purpose of the OoTP event in the Ministry of Magic's Department of Mysteries was that Voldemort himself NOT be there, that Harry do the dirty work of retrieving the prophecy for him, correct? So then was Voldemort ever actually IN the Atrium that evening? Or was it that he was posessing Harry to attack Dumbledore? Could that be why Harry had no idea what was going on on the other side of the statue that was 'defending' him and herding him away- when in actuality it was LV posessing him and he just didn't know what was going on as he was too concerned with trying to get a good look at the unfolding action? He obviouly wouldn't see it from behind a statue, when he was the centerpoint of said action. This has been nagging at me, as I can't remember a scene where Voldemort's actually -seen- in that battle. DD could have been talking to LV through Harry, and couldn't that be why it sounded like LV kept trying to get DD to kill Harry? That he was not there at all, but fighting -through- him? vmonte responds: Voldemort was definitely there. Don't you remember that he was spotted by several wizards from the community at large--including Fudge? That's why Fudge could no longer deny that LV was back. Vivian From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Mar 30 13:48:25 2005 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:48:25 -0000 Subject: HP Conventional Wisdom Watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126781 > Hickengruendler: > > I will only answer where I have some questions or disagree with you > completely. Therefore consider every character where I don't answer > as an "I agree". > > Alla: > > Yes, I will do the same thing. Marianne: Chiming in to further confuse the attributions of who is saying what.. > Lupinlore: > > SIRIUS BLACK: Falling. CW is that he is dead and will remain that > way. > > Hickengruendler: > > But we will see him again. JKR as good as told us so, when she said > she couldn't tell. However, I hope he remains dead, and we will only > see him shortly like Harry's parents in book 4 or 5. > > > Alla: > > Well, I hope he won't remain dead, but I do understand that the > possibility of him coming back as fully alive is pretty slim. I do > think though that we will see him not in the past, but in the > present, coming back temporarily in some kind of spiritual form to > help Harry. I think this possibility is rather strong, especially > since besides the quote Hickengruendler mentioned ( JKR said that > she won't answer in what form we will see Sirius, because she does > not want to incriminate herself ), JKR also said that mirror will > play a role. > Marianne: Alla and I are probably in the minority of hoping for some sort of resurrection, but I'm sure it won't happen. My disagreement with Lupinlore's "falling" rating is based on JKR's insistence that Sirius had to die. This implies that there is an important reason that this had to happen, and I hope she really means IMPORTANT. Not to show Harry that death happens unexpectedly, not to push Harry farther along on the Hero's journey by removing one of his mentor figures, and not simply because, for some as yet unknown reason, the Black inheritance has to be put up for grabs. OTOH, didn't JKR say at one point that "a fan of Harry's" will die in OoP, which led many of us to assume the death would be someone like Colin Creavy or Hagrid? So sometimes the way she words her answers to interview questions may trip me up. > > Lupinlore: > HERMIONE GRANGER: Falling. OOTP left many believing she badly > needed a lesson in humility, if not a smack in the mouth. Her > efforts with SPEW are not popular among readers, and many think she > is doomed to embarrassment. Marianne: Agreed, although I found Hermione's quick-quote character assessments of various people to be even more annoying than her misguided, though well-meaning efforts on behalf of the elves. > > > > Lupinlore: > LUNA LOVEGOOD: Mixed. A favorite of JKR, and one of the few > characters who seemed to connect with Harry at the end of Book V. > However, indications are that among fans outside of internet > circles, reaction has ranged from indifference to annoyance. > > Hickengruendler: > > Well, for what it's worth, I know three readers who are not in the > internet circles, my mother, my aunt and one of my closest friends, > and they all love Luna and my mother even said said she considers > Luna to be the best character introduced after book 1. > > Alla: > > I think Luna has a great potential, but so far I need much more to > really care about her. I mean I am pretty sure that JKR set her up > to be right about a great deal of things and probably much to > Hermione's annoyance, but I just don't feel Luna yet. :) > Marianne: I felt Luna to be an almost forced creation at times. It almost seemed that she was introduced to be the anti-Hermione, all ehtereal feelings and intuitiveness, rather than practical and logical. I'm undecided. > > Lupinlore: > REMUS LUPIN: Falling. His stature as a candidate for the HBP seems > to have declined recently. Pippin's theory of an ESE!Lupin so far > has few supporters, but the prominence of Dumbledore and Harry on > the covers seems to work against the previously popular idea that he > would step up to be a paternal figure for Harry in the sixth book. > Also his disappointing passivity in OOTP still grates on some > people's nerves. > > > Alla: > > I still hold hope for remus to get closer to Harry in HBP. I mean, I > will be the first one to be happy if Dumbledore will become a real > mentor for Harry, but you never know - the covers may just show the > final moments of the book. That may leave some room for Remus during > all year. > Marianne: I'd label this more as lurking in the weeds. I don't believe in ESE!Lupin and I do trust that, since JKR has expressed her liking of Lupin, that he will come out of his passivity in some major way. And, no, I don't think it will be as a father-mentor substitute for Harry now that Sirius is gone. Which leads to another question: If Lupin does suddenly play a more prominent, assertive role, do you think there will be readers that he's suddenly gone OOC, much the same way people seemed surprised by GirlPower!Ginny in OoP? Marianne From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 13:48:08 2005 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:48:08 -0000 Subject: DD's Patronus ( was Re: The Half-Blood McGuffin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126782 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > > > > > What form does Dumbledore's Patronus take? > > > > Good question. Can anyone guess? You have had a clue. There was a > > little whisper there. It is a phoenix, which is very > representative of Dumbledore for reasons that I am sure you can > guess. > > > > > Tonks now: > > "For reasons that I am sure you can guess"!!??? What did she mean > by that??? Is DD imortal like the Phoenix?? Or because he has the > Order of the Phoenix? But the Order is representative of Christ. I > know everyone must be tired of hearing that, but it is what it is. Annemehr: Well, the jury's still out on whether Dumbledore himself will prove to have a life similar to the deaths and rebirthings of the phoenix, but the connection to the bird is more obvious in its other characteristics. The entry for Phoenixes in Fantastic Beasts (my copy of which has fallen behind a cabinet I can't move by myself, so I can't quote it exactly) says that they are extremely loyal, their tears have healing properties, and their song strikes fear into the evil, but lends courage to the pure of heart. DD tells Harry some of this in CoS, at Fawkes' rebirthing. When Harry heard phoenix song when his wand connected with Voldemort's, he experienced the boost to his courage, and he connected the sound to Dumbledore. I don't see a direct link between phoenix tears and DD's character (unless you want to get very metaphorical), but making a connection to the others is easier. Does that help? Annemehr From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Mar 30 16:48:01 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:48:01 -0000 Subject: UK adult cover -- "Borage" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126783 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > > > "kennymod": > > > Any context for Libalius Borage: > > > > > > > > > Other Uses > > > ? Borage makes an excellent facial steam for improving very > > > dry, sensitive skin. > > > > Geoff: > > Perhaps Voldemort could make use of some to make himself even more > > attractive to Bellatrix? > > :-) > > Annemehr: > No, no, no. You're missing the point; you have to look at all the > book covers. First (B. children's), Harry and DD wrap themselves in > flame in the course of a battle. Next (B. adult), they seek a remedy > in the potions book, and finally (Scholastic), they brew themselves a > steam bath for the faces they've burnt raw. > :P Geoff: Yes, but I still hold to my view that "himself" wouldn't go wrong to have a steam bath for his own good..... He might get Bellatrix to come and scrub his back. From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 12:46:03 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:46:03 -0000 Subject: A question on Sirius and his vault In-Reply-To: <20050330112331.14223.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126784 laurie: > > I do apologize if I sound like I am rambling here, but > it's been nagging me as to how Sirius was able to pay > for Harry's new broom and not get caught the instant > his vault was accessed.... > > > Perhaps there's just plain old indifference in action. It's goblins, and with Hagrid, they didn't seem to mind him getting into the special vault after the SS, just so long as he had the key. He also had the key to Harry's vault, so no problem there. Give the cat the key, if to fetch the contents of the vault, and there ya go. Indifference, and that's about it for my opinion, Goblins are magic creatures too, and I doubt they are treated as equals among the wizards so perhaps wizarding matters don't matter that much to them. Chys From leslie.s.bennett at lmco.com Wed Mar 30 14:57:07 2005 From: leslie.s.bennett at lmco.com (moondance241) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:57:07 -0000 Subject: Why did Hermione Lie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126785 Reading SS/PS again, I was again struck by the question of why Hermione decided to lie about the troll in the bathroom. Prior to this incident, Ron had hurt her feelings so much, she was hiding out in the bathroom crying. She'd been at odds with Harry and Ron about losing points for Griffyndor. Basically, there was not a sign there would be a friendship there. Knowing 11 year olds (I have one), I would think she'd be more likely to tell on the boys (even with the risk of losing more points) then to lie for for them. I haven't figured out her motivation. Is it just author license to bring the three together? Any other ideas (besides you shippers!!)? Moondance From hambtty at triad.rr.com Wed Mar 30 13:16:13 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:16:13 -0000 Subject: The Seven Charms in HPSS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126786 Each charm (in order) that guarded the Stone has so far been related to the plot in each book. So, we can assume that will continue to be the case. 1. The 3 headed dog (HRH), 2. the devils snare (plant cure for those petrified by the monster), 3. keys - Sirus freed, 4. chess game - Tri- wizard Tournament, 5. troll who did not have to be defeated (I get stuck here), 6. potions/Prof. Snape, 7. THE MIRROR What do you think the undefeated troll means in relation to OOP? I think that Snape will be a key figure in HBP if JKR set out the 7 themes in SS. And of course a MIRROR will tie up the entire story. That troll has me stumped tho, any ideas? I'm sure you do. From lsanford at lnls.org Wed Mar 30 13:53:52 2005 From: lsanford at lnls.org (L Sanford) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:53:52 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Half-Blood McGuffin - EUREKA ! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126787 vmonte responds: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 What form does Dumbledore's Patronus take? Good question. Can anyone guess? You have had a clue. There was a little whisper there. It is a phoenix, which is very representative of Dumbledore for reasons that I am sure you can guess. Molley here: Oh My Gosh!! Is it possible to infer from this that DD is immortal? Well, not exactly immortal, but can die and resurrect himself? Is this the reason Voldemort is afraid of him? Think about it - if DD was merely a very powerful wizard he could still be defeated by superior strategy, favorable opportunity/timing and/or sheer dumb luck. I've always felt there was *something* more concrete to the fear of LV than the mere "powerful wizard" argument. Any thoughts? From eleanorrice at sympatico.ca Wed Mar 30 16:45:57 2005 From: eleanorrice at sympatico.ca (meandabbey) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:45:57 -0000 Subject: Inheriting Kreacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126788 I don't think this has been discussed recently. If it has, perhaps you could point me to the relevant post. There has been some discussion of the possibility that Harry may inherit some or all of Sirius's assests. What if this includes Kreacher? I can see all sorts of tension. Harry would want nothing to do with him. Even discussing him would be more than he could bear. Hermione would be sure that setting him free would change K's attitude and would be the only moral and ethical thing to do. Some or all of the members of the order would insist that Harry retain ownership of K, to prevent him going to Bellatrix. I can see endless possiblities for dissension and strife. However, I am fairly sure that Kreacher is not HBP. ;o) From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 17:37:42 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:37:42 -0000 Subject: A question on Sirius and his vault In-Reply-To: <20050330112331.14223.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, laurie goudge wrote: > > Hello everyone: > > ...edited... > > ... At the end when Sirius sends Harry the note confirming it was > him who sent the new broom and Crookshanks was the one who did the > ordering I wondered--how did Crookshanks get the money from > Sirius's vault without raising alarm bells? ...Didn't whomever gave > Crookshanks the money realize the vault ... belonged to a fellon? > ... > > ... it's been nagging me as to how Sirius was able to pay for Harry's > new broom and not get caught the instant his vault was accessed.... > > > laurie bboyminn: We don't really have a solid explanation for this, so we are reduced to speculation. This is the theory I have speculated in the past. Order Placed by a Cat- I think we are looking at standard straight forward mail-order. The cat(Crookshanks) took the order /form/ to the post office. That order form contained an authorization to withdraw the money from Vault #711; Sirius's vault. So, Crookshanks wasn't actually carrying gold, just an authorization for the gold much the same way you give authorization to withdraw from you credit card when you mail order. Goblin, Bankers, and Privacy- Still it's fair to ask, why didn't the Bank Goblins know that this was Sirius's vault, further knowing Sirius was an exscaped criminal, why didn't they turn him in? I have always speculated that the Goblins don't think much of the Ministy. The Ministry represents an organization that has oppressed and controlled them for centuries. Also, the Goblin take money and their trust to guard it very seriously. I therefore think that they also take the private financial affairs of their customers very seriously. I can very easily see the Goblins thinking it's not any of the Ministries business what the Bank's customers are doing with there money, and therfore they would see no need to assist or notify the Ministry. As long as wizard's personal bank business isn't affecting the Goblin's own gold or profit, I think they would guard their customer's privacy as closely as they guard their customer's gold. The Goblins, who again are not the most Ministry friendly creatures, would regard chasing criminals as the Ministries business, and guarding gold and privacy as their own business; never the two shall meet. This seems like a fair explanation, but we'll never know until JKR confirms it. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From mysticowl at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 18:27:31 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:27:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why did Hermione Lie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126790 Well, Harry and Ron did come to save her from a Troll. Even if she didn't think it was their intention to help her, help her they did. I think saving your life overweighs getting your feelings hurt. Rowlings explained it as a bond that can't help but appear when you face a bloodthirsty troll together (no books on me, so I'm forced to paraphrase) and it's good enough for me. Alina. From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 18:29:14 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:29:14 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Things better for House Elves? - How? and Why? In-Reply-To: References: <20050330012118.87377.qmail@web14126.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126791 > > Tyler: > > > > Has anyone else wondered just how LV's fall improved > > the daily lives of British House Elves? They would > > all still be... treat ... as ruthlessly as before. > > ... So whats changed? Any thoughts? > > > > Tyler > > bboyminn: > > I think that while Voldemort was strong the Death Eater's were growing > very full of themselves, acting as if they were all powerful and above > the law. The killed and tortured for sport, and I suspect of few of > those killed and tortured for sport were house-elves. > > Ruthless men entranced and intoxicated by their preceived > invulnerability can be unbelievable cruel. But when Voldemort was > vanquished, they suddenly had great incentive to rein it in and play > it cool. They fought hard to convince the Ministry and their fellow > wizards that they were just poor victims, and in reality, were fine > upstanding citizens who just wanted to get back to their normal > elf-loving, muggle-loving lives. > > Given that any continued ruthlessness or cruelty on their part would > throw great suspision on their claims of having been enchanted (mind > control curse) by Voldemort, I suspect they were on their best > behavior and that improved the lives of Elves greatly. Lindsay: Steve beat me to it, but yes, that was something I wondered about before I also came to that conclusion. I also imagine a lot of Death Eater owners were thrown in Azkaban as well, and the rest of the family they then served were not so cruel, or at least, on their best behavior. Most societies that have slavery of some sort at least have laws "protecting" the slaves from harsh abuse, normally as humanity laws. Of course, those tended to be ignored or brushed aside, however if the Wizarding World has such laws, I imagine the Ministry would be looking for any excuse to throw the rest of the family into Azkaban, or at least fine them heavily and conduct raids. So where they might normally ignore House Elf abuse laws, they might be looking to enforce them since they cannot pin anything else on those people. So thus, the family would definitely want to be on their best behavior. --Lindsay From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 18:35:52 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:35:52 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Seven Charms in HPSS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126792 B.G. > Each charm (in order) that guarded the Stone has so far been related > to the plot in each book. So, we can assume that will continue to be > the case. > > 1. The 3 headed dog (HRH), 2. the devils snare (plant cure for those > petrified by the monster), 3. keys - Sirus freed, 4. chess game - Tri- > wizard Tournament, 5. troll who did not have to be defeated (I get > stuck here), 6. potions/Prof. Snape, 7. THE MIRROR > > What do you think the undefeated troll means in relation to OOP? > > I think that Snape will be a key figure in HBP if JKR set out the 7 > themes in SS. > > And of course a MIRROR will tie up the entire story. > > That troll has me stumped tho, any ideas? I'm sure you do. Lindsay: Interesting theory. The troll could be Umbridge. They never had to actually defeat her - she will be removed by the Ministry because faith has been restored in Dumbledore due to the fight at the Ministry building, but they never actively took any role to remove her from her position. Also, Hermione leads her to the centaurs, which defeat her, but Hermione and Harry themselves do not. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 18:59:34 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:59:34 -0000 Subject: HP Conventional Wisdom Watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126793 Hannah: Brilliant idea, Lupinlore! As others have, I'll just put comments after those I don't necessarily agree with: >Lupinlore: > REMUS LUPIN: Falling. His stature as a candidate for the HBP seems to have declined recently. Pippin's theory of an ESE!Lupin so far has few supporters, but the prominence of Dumbledore and Harry on the covers seems to work against the previously popular idea that he would step up to be a paternal figure for Harry in the sixth book. Also his disappointing passivity in OOTP still grates on some people's nerves. Hannah: REMUS LUPIN: Rising. Now that Sirius has gone, Lupin is the last remaining Marauder (excluding Peter on account of his being confirmed as ESE), and Harry's final link to his Mum, Dad, and Sirius. Though he remained detached in OotP, this may have been due to fear of interfering in Harry and Sirius' relationship. His positive actions at the end of OotP (participating in threatening the Dursleys) suggest that he may become more of a mentor figure again to Harry. He can offer Harry emotional support that, IMO, DD can't. They can also enjoy a closer relationship than Harry is likely to achieve with a man who is more the 100 years older than him, partly responsible for his miserable life, and still his Headteacher. >Lupinlore: PERCY WEASLEY: Falling. Early speculation that he might be a spy for > Dumbledore has largely given way to a focus on Percy as a Weasley > misfit and messed-up dude. Hannah: PERCY WEASLEY: Mixed. Though the theory of Percy as a spy has pretty much been shot down by JKR, there is still a chance for the third Weasley to redeem himself by trying to compensate for his past actions. Despite Percy's alienation in the last book, he still managed to get into a lot of scenes, so we aren't meant to be forgetting him. There is also speculation that he may play a larger part in the next books by becoming a Death Eater. Whether that counts as rising or falling I'm not sure... > >Lupinlore: MINERVA MCGONNOGAL: Mixed. Her strong personality is a breath of > fresh air. But her handling of Harry in HBP gives new meaning to the > word "maladroit." Hannah: MINERVA MCGONAGALL: Rising. Her role in OotP combined the best bits of Snape's personality (great snarky lines, devious operation) without the bullying and general nastiness. Her support of Harry over the careers advice and her attempts to advise him Umbridge (more than the 'perfect' DD managed) and heroic defence of Hagrid elevated her status with many fans. Though her promise to help Harry become an Auror if it's the last thing she does is of concern to some as a foreshadowing of her death. > >Lupinlore: GRAWP: Falling. Of course, he was in the sub-basement already, so > what can one say? > Hannah: GRAWP: Mixed. Though Grawp's popularity is indeed currently around 'sub-basment' level, he did serve some purpose at the end of OotP, and JKR has said he will be much improved in HBP. He sounds too much like a plot device for him not to end up helping the good side in book 6 and/or 7. And he has the dubious advantage of not being able to sink much lower. Additions: DOBBY AND THE HOUSE ELVES: Rising. Much speculation about them playing a major role in the coming battle, and of them attaining their freedom or at least more rights. COLIN CREEVEY: Rising. Colin's membership of the DA has slightly improved his male fangirl image. He's considered an outside chance for the role of HBP by some HP fans, and even a possible Quidditch team member. Speculation about his parentage and his function in the plot suggest he could be on the rise. LILY POTTER: Mixed. We're in store for a major revelation about Lily, possibly in HBP. Speculation has suggested a number of possibilities, most of them something negative. Following James being knocked from his pedestal in OotP, it seems likely that the engimatic and supposedly angelic Lily is next in line for a bashing. PETER PETTIGREW: Rising. Speculation abounds over the whereabouts of the rat in OotP, and JKR has promised we'll learn more. A small number of dedicated Peter sympathisers are proposing theories for his not being a totally evil waste of space. And then there's the question of that life debt he owes Harry... many think Peter may help save the day yet. Just my opinion! Hannah From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 19:04:38 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:04:38 -0800 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126794 Lindsay: The Leaky Cauldron says that the marketers just released these large stand-up cover art for HBP. At the bottom, there are three kids looking up at Harry and Dumbledore. Here's a large picture: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2005/03/scholstanduphbphuge.html Who do you think each one is? I definitely think that the right girl is Ginny. To the left, the boy's hair is more brown then red, and no freckles (which Ron normally has when GrandPre draws him), so I don't think that is Ron, nor really any of the Weasleys. My first reaction is Seamus, because the boy's face is too angular to be Neville's...but since we know we're going to be seeing Zabini coming up, that could be him! I *think* that is a green scarve he is wearing. If we go for Slytherin, could also be Nott. Or it could be any number of kids in the DA, but my money is on Blaise, Seamus, Theodore, in that order. As for the black haired girl - she COULD be Cho, but she really doesn't look Asian, and I think Cho is going to be taking a back-seat, anyway. She also doesn't look Indian, so I doubt she is one of the Patil sisters. She's too cute to be Bulstrode. Pansy, Luna and Hannah are blondes. Susan's hair up until this point is long and kept in a plait. Could be Lavender, she is in DA...doubt it is someone outside the DA, and they all look too young to be out of Hogwarts and in the Order. There is the possibility, if the boy is Zabini or Nott, that the girl is one of our unknown Slytherin girls, Daphne Greengrass or Tracey Davis. If JKR is going for House unity, then we're going to have to meet some nice Slytherins eventually, right? And not just one...two! I think the definite Ginny down there at the bottom, looking directly up at Harry, is going to have the GW/HP shippers squealing, and for good reason. If there are two new characters and Ginny on the cover, then Ginny must play a very important role in HBP, and being Harry's girlfriend might be it. Or...it could have something to do with her involvement in that darn diary. ;) In retrospect, that could be Lily instead of Ginny, too. Ah well. What do you all think? --Lindsay From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 19:04:59 2005 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:04:59 -0000 Subject: Quidditch for Harry in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126795 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Andromeda" wrote: I agree with the > person (just a day or two ago, sorry!) who said they were surprised > Harry never thought about a professional Quidditch career, since it > was clearly where his skills and interests lay, outside of surviving > Voldemort! Maybe a sport will seem trivial in the aftermath of the > revelations of Oop, but I think Harry will need both the distraction > from real life and the lessons for real life Quidditch offers. > I too thought it made sense as a nice career after the war, if he were to live. At risk of souding cliche'd, I would mention again that author John Granger found Harry's (symbolic) position as Seeker among the clouds quite appropriate... I can see how it would be too much to deal with if there's a war on, but it's just the sort of thing that would be perfect afterwards... if he retains interest. Not contributing much besides this, A.J. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 19:28:45 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:28:45 -0000 Subject: The Seven Charms in HPSS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126796 > B.G.wrote > > Each charm (in order) that guarded the Stone has so far been related > > to the plot in each book. So, we can assume that will continue to be the case. > > > > 1. The 3 headed dog (HRH), 2. the devils snare (plant cure for those petrified by the monster), 3. keys - Sirus freed, 4. chess game - Tri-wizard Tournament, 5. troll who did not have to be defeated (I get stuck here), 6. potions/Prof. Snape, 7. THE MIRROR > > > > What do you think the undefeated troll means in relation to OOP? > > > > I think that Snape will be a key figure in HBP if JKR set out the 7 themes in SS. > > > > And of course a MIRROR will tie up the entire story. > > > > That troll has me stumped tho, any ideas? I'm sure you do. Hannah: I've heard the theory before and I'm not a great fan of it, mainly because I don't think JKR puts as much thought as we believe into these sort of allegories. Your assertion that each task *has* been linked to the book of the same number is in fact open to interpretation. *I'm* not assuming it will continue to be the case because I'm not convinced that it ever has been the case. The trouble is with these sort of 'representative' theories, is that it comes down to interpretation, and anyone clever enough can find symbolism for whatever they want in things like the seven tasks. For instance; your interpretation that Snape will be a big part in book 6, which I fervently hope is correct, but can't agree with the logic. By the same reasoning, Quirrel should have played a big part in OotP, McGonagall in GoF, and Flitwick in POA, yet none of them had any more significant role than normal in these books, and Quirrel never even featured. To further highlight my point, we could argue that the tasks in reverse order represent the books (task 7 = book 1 etc.) So we have Book 1: the mirror. Harry finding out the truth about himself and his past (reflections). Book 2: the potions. The polyjuice potion and the potion to restore those who are petrified. Book 3: the troll. Something supposedly dangerous (Sirius, the Grim) turns out to be non-theatening and benign (as it's unconcious). Book 4: the chess game. OK, that one's the same. Book 5: the flying keys. Things being elusive and hard to catch hold of, hidden. Represents Harry's search for hard-to-come-by information and the hiding of the truth amongst a myriad of lies. Book 6: the Devil's Snare... who knows? Maybe it's an ingredient in a potion by Libatious Borge. Book 7: Giant three headed dog, calmed by music. Music is a greater magic than anything at Hogwarts. Harry will snake charm LV into submission through playing the ukelele... OK, the last one was a bit silly, but it's impossible to relate any scenario to a book we don't know that plot of yet. I'm just trying to show why I find the tasks=books theory a bit implausible. There are just too many ways to interpret the tasks in order to come to the desired conclusion. However, to answer your initial question with regard to the troll, some people think it symbolises Harry being kept in the dark and not told anything (as the troll was unconcious). Hannah From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 19:34:53 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:34:53 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione & Flying, Quidditch (was Re: Quidditch for Harry HBP?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126797 > SSSusan: > I don't think this is weird, Bookworm. Well, I mean, it may be still > seem somewhat unlikely, but I wouldn't think it's as unlikely as > Hermione. :-) Hermione is just not comfortable flying a broom, from > what we've seen. But Neville, as many people have pointed out, gives > indications that he's potentially quite talented & powerful; he just > may need to learn to *harness* his powers. (Think about all the > comments which have been made concerning what he might be able to do > with a NON-hand-me-down wand.) Lindsay: While I'm not advocating Hermione being on the House team, but I don't think this anti-flying Hermione thing is really accurate. I think Hermione would probably do better on a broom than Neville. We see Hermione and brooms twice: The first class, where she was not able to get her broom up first like Harry was. Harry speculated that the broom might be able to sense if the owner was nervous, like it obviously did with Neville. Hermione as a Muggle-born who doesn't seem to take everything in stride like Harry does, being nervous about her first broom flight, is not at all unusual. We don't know if she was nervous of the flying itself, or of doing badly, since Harry also says that Hermione found something that cannot be learned by books alone. Hermione, if nothing else in PS/SS, was always trying to prove herself. And like Harry having thoughts about being awful on a broom and falling off in front of Malfoy, I imagine Hermione did, also. Perhaps also like Harry did in PS/SS, Hermione thought that if she screwed up too much, they'd send her back to the Muggle world. The second time we see Hermione and a broom is also in PS/SS, when they're in the key chamber. At that time, they all grab brooms and start chasing keys. It could have been a moment of the thing, but Harry definitely does not notice Hermione being at all awkward on her broom. The other two times we see Hermione flying is on Buckbeak with Harry and on the threstral. On Buckbeak, I don't have a book with me at the moment, but Harry hears Hermione muttering as she clings to him, something like "I don't like this." or "Not like this." (My memory is a bit fuzzy, don't have a book on me for exact quote). But then again, the first time Harry flew on Buckbeak, he was also very nervous - the animal's back sloped downward, the feathers were slick, his legs caught uncomfortably under the wings. Harry was also afraid of falling off Buckbeak when he was riding by himself. Imagine Hermione, not being able to grab Buckbeak's neck, or have her legs under his wing joint, sitting on the animal's rump and only hanging on by clinging to Harry? I'd be scared, too. And lastly, the thestrals. Hermione can't see the thestrals, which was undoubtably nerve-wracking, but we didn't hear one peep out of her about the whole thing. Harry didn't notice Hermione looking nervous or scared or anything. I do not think Hermione is afraid of flying. As for Quidditch, Hermione was really getting into the games in PS/SS, when we got to go to her and Ron's PoV in the stands. She was jumping up and down, dancing on the seats, screaming and hollering with the rest. Throughout the rest of the books, we see Hermione definitely put school in front of Quidditch, which is exactly the responsible, Hermione thing to do. She questions why the others get so worked up about Quidditch and why it has to create house rivalries that extend outside the pitch in OOtP. Again, I don't have the book on me, but I just read this passage the other night, and the boys told Hermione that she just didn't get Quidditch. I think what Hermione doesn't get is that the rivalry for most of the Houses doesn't extend outside the pitch, it is just perceived that way. It's like any rival teams in any sporting event. Very competitive, sometimes insults are thrown, but at the end of the day, no matter who wins or loses, nobody hates the other team. Unfortunately, Gryffindor and Slytherin have already have a rivalry that isn't just in the Quidditch pitch, and I think Hermione is confusing that rivalry with the normal Quidditch rivalry that Gryffindor has with the other Houses. I suppose she might fear that the Gryffindor/Slytherin hatred might develop between Gryffindor and the other two Houses *because* of Quidditch, when they all are really supposed to be working together. In the end, though, Hermione would put her schoolwork before any game. However, I don't for a second think she isn't a Quidditch fan. I think she is, and if she has any hand-eye coordination, she could probably turn out to be a Chaser. The problem for Hermione would be priorities, but seeing as it is sixth year and Hermione seems to really have no trouble staying at the top of the class, I would say it is possible. It would definitely be one of those out-of-nowhere things, but JKR likes to throw out red herrings all the time - we think we know someone, and though we have hints of otherwise, we tend to ignore. We always thought Neville was a bit slow, no backbone - now we know that we just didn't know Neville well enough, even though we had hints with him standing up to them in PS/SS and him doing well in Herbology. Ginny, we always thought of as shy and soft-spoken, even though we always heard other characters talk of her differently. Turns out, we just didn't know *that much* about Ginny beforehand, but now we know. For all we see of Hermione, we really do not know *that much* about her. We know a ton of a lot more about Ron, in retrospect. So I could very well see Hermione filling a Chaser spot in HBP. If Harry isn't Seeker, because I do give the Ron/Harry as Beaters theory merit, then that will probably be Ginny, and I just can't see Hermione being a Keeper. She seems too short, whereas Wood and Ron are both tall. --Lindsay From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 19:44:04 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:44:04 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126798 > Lindsay wrote: > > The Leaky Cauldron says that the marketers just released these large > stand-up cover art for HBP. At the bottom, there are three kids > looking up at Harry and Dumbledore. > Who do you think each one is? > > I definitely think that the right girl is Ginny. > > To the left, the boy's hair is more brown then red, and no freckles > (which Ron normally has when GrandPre draws him), so I don't think > that is Ron, nor really any of the Weasleys. My first reaction is > Seamus, because the boy's face is too angular to be Neville's...but > since we know we're going to be seeing Zabini coming up, that could be > him! I *think* that is a green scarve he is wearing. If we go for > Slytherin, could also be Nott. Or it could be any number of kids in > the DA, but my money is on Blaise, Seamus, Theodore, in that order. > > As for the black haired girl - she COULD be Cho, but she really > doesn't look Asian, and I think Cho is going to be taking a back- seat, > anyway. She also doesn't look Indian, so I doubt she is one of the > Patil sisters. She's too cute to be Bulstrode. Pansy, Luna and > Hannah are blondes. Susan's hair up until this point is long and kept > in a plait. Hannah: Thanks for the link, Lindsay! This is very interesting... I personally think the boy on the far left is Ron, as he has a sharp nose like Ron has, though I'm not familiar with Mary GrandPre's illustrations. The boy next to him (I thought it was a boy anyway) I think is Neville, as he has a soft, rounded look about his face. The red headed girl is probably Ginny, though maybe it's Lily as you say. If the other boys are Ron and Neville, it makes more sense for it to be Ginny. What did interest me was the picture of the Dark Mark on the left halfway down, which appears to be cast into the air above a town/ village skyline (it stretches across the length of the page). Godric's Hollow in a pensieve? Or Hogsmeade under attack? If the three watchers are actually watching DD and Harry, it makes the pensieve theory less likely, as I don't suppose there'd be much to see. It also looks like the pensieve is much taller than it is described in canon... I had been convinced it was a pensieve in the picture, but now I'm not so sure. Is it just artistic licence? So many questions! Mainly hinging on; is it a picture of the past (Godric's Hollow for example), or of actual events that are going to happen (the Dark Mark and shocked expressions spell bad news for DD). And if it is Ron, Ginny and Neville (or another character), where is Hermione? Hannah From siskiou at vcem.com Wed Mar 30 19:48:54 2005 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:48:54 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01711254.20050330114854@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126799 Hi, Wednesday, March 30, 2005, 11:44:04 AM, Hannah wrote: > And if it is Ron, Ginny and Neville (or another character), > where is Hermione? Actually, I think Hermione is right next to Ron. To me it looks like Ron and Hermione on one side, and Ginny on the other. I can't imagine the person next to Ron being Neville, but I could be mistaken. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 19:56:03 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:56:03 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126800 >>Phoenixgod: >What makes Snape so contempable to me and many other people, while similar literary characters can be just as dark and bitter and yet still remain sympathetic and understandable--even in their own way likeable. >For those of you who've read both series or another series with a Snape like character, what seperates Snape from them to make him either more or less likeable and sympathetic?< Betsy: So I've been away for a while on horrible, icky, ugly, RL business, but this question was too intriguing for me to pass up. Especially since so few (if any?) Snape fans replied. Because I totally understand the attraction to a character who has not had it easy. Someone who made some wrong choices and now has to pay for them. And especially the attraction to a character with the quick sardonic wit JKR has so lovingly bestowed upon Snape. (Come on, love him or hate him, you have to admit Snape gets the best lines. Is it any wonder he's JKR's favorite character to write?) I haven't read the dragonlance series, and am not familier with Raistlin Majere. Though he sounds like most of the characters in Glenn Cook's Black Company series (which my husband *loves* but became a bit too nihilistic for my tastes). Snape has certainly seen the worst human nature has to offer during his time as a Death Eater (and under the hands of James and Sirius - did anyone else see a potential rape scene there?) And Snape made the rather heroic decision to turn his back on the winning side and join with the losers, so he's got the redemption thing going on too. But there's something else I love about Snape, that I have a sneaking suspicion is probably the very reason others hate him. (Yeah, I'm not thinking I'll be changing any minds here. Maybe clarifying a few things?) And it's got everything to do with my attitude towards children. I do like kids. Cute, sweet, etc., etc., But also capable of mind-boggling cruelty and very much needing a touch of strict discipline and some unbending rules. Otherwise - chaos. Snape has a similar view. He's not there to be the children's best friend, or to help them unleash their creativity, or worried about scarring their poor fragile minds . He's there to teach potions. And if he has to pound the knowledge into their thick, clumsy skulls (hello, Neville) than that's what he'll do. I admire that. (Not that I wouldn't have been scared crapless of Snape if he was my teacher - but I think I'd have appreciated his methods a few years down the road. As I do with my very Snape-like fourth grade teacher, secretly referred to as Mrs. Hitler by her students.) Snape's old-world, old-school, way of teaching is like a breath of fresh air for me. I also, don't think Snape is nearly as unfair as Harry and friends like to think he is. Yes, he's got a special place in his heart for his Slytherins. And yes, he's got a not-so-nice place in his heart for Gryffindors (thank you James and Sirius). However, the times he disciplines Harry, Harry has usually done something to deserve Snape's wrath. And quite frankly, if Hogwarts had a strict honor code, Hermione and Neville would have been expelled a long time ago. There's no way that I can imagine Snape condoning cheating. Snape is not a nice man. And he certainly doesn't coddle his class. But he's not required to do either of those things. He's required to teach potions. Which he does admirably well. (I think Harry will be very surprised with how well he does on his Potions' OWL, because I think Snape has made a habit of demanding far more from his students than the OWL's do.) And I *like* that part of Snape. So while I think Snape's teaching methods and the way he treats Harry and Co. turn many people off the man, it's this very thing that pulls me towards him. From his opening sneer about Hogwarts' new celebrity in PS/SS to the final 10 points taken in OotP Snape is a compelling character that I love to watch. May the final two books include many, many scenes with Snape. Betsy, who's so thrilled to be back, you don't even know. From tmar78 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 19:56:32 2005 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:56:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Things better for House Elves? - How? and Why? In-Reply-To: <1112181285.9282.63413.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050330195632.26750.qmail@web14122.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126801 > Tyler: > > Has anyone else wondered just how LV's fall improved > the daily lives of British House Elves? They would > all still be... treat ... as ruthlessly as before. > ... So whats changed? Any thoughts? bboyminn: But when Voldemort was vanquished, they suddenly had great incentive to rein it in and play it cool. They fought hard to convince the Ministry and their fellow wizards that they were just poor victims, and in reality, were fine upstanding citizens who just wanted to get back to their normal elf-loving, muggle-loving lives. Tyler again: True, they were given an incentive to behave. That means any public displays of cruelty was out of the question, lest they draw suspicion on themselves. But how would anyone know that they were mistreating their house elves as that would be going on behind closed doors? Thats what I don't get. www.redmeat.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 19:57:21 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:57:21 -0000 Subject: Hermione & Flying, Quidditch (was Re: Quidditch for Harry HBP?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126802 > Lindsay: > > While I'm not advocating Hermione being on the House team, but I don't think this anti-flying Hermione thing is really accurate. I think Hermione would probably do better on a broom than Neville. > We see Hermione and brooms twice: The first class, where she was not able to get her broom up first like Harry was. Harry speculated that the broom might be able to sense if the owner was nervous, like it obviously did with Neville. Hermione as a Muggle-born who doesn't seem to take everything in stride like Harry does, being nervous about her first broom flight, is not at all unusual. We don't know if she > was nervous of the flying itself, or of doing badly, since Harry also says that Hermione found something that cannot be learned by books alone. Hermione, if nothing else in PS/SS, was always trying to prove herself. And like Harry having thoughts about being awful on a broom and falling off in front of Malfoy, I imagine Hermione did, also. Perhaps also like Harry did in PS/SS, Hermione thought that if she screwed up too much, they'd send her back to the Muggle world. > > The second time we see Hermione and a broom is also in PS/SS, when > they're in the key chamber. At that time, they all grab brooms and > start chasing keys. It could have been a moment of the thing, but > Harry definitely does not notice Hermione being at all awkward on her broom. > I do not think Hermione is afraid of flying. > As for Quidditch, Hermione was really getting into the games in PS/SS, when we got to go to her and Ron's PoV in the stands. She was jumping up and down, dancing on the seats, screaming and hollering with the rest. > So I could very well see Hermione filling a Chaser spot in HBP. If > Harry isn't Seeker, because I do give the Ron/Harry as Beaters theory merit, then that will probably be Ginny, and I just can't see Hermione being a Keeper. She seems too short, whereas Wood and Ron are both > tall. Hannah: A good argument in favour of Hermione being better at flying than we think. I don't think she will end up playing Quidditch (though you say yourself that you don't advocate her joining the team). Hermione can't be good at everything. If she got into the Quidditch team as well as being prefect, senior DA member, and top of every class, it would be getting a bit much to believe. Rather like kickass-rainbowbelt!Hermione of the Medium That Shall Not Be Named. Plus having the entire trio as Quidditch team players seems a bit contrived. And having Hermione on the ground can be an advantage plotwise - she might well be needed to intervene in the event of an attack, for example. The Quidditch team also provides a chance for other minor characters to be given a boost into prominence, or for introducing new characters. It seems a shame to give it to one of the major characters who's going to play a big part whatever happens. Anyway, very good argument for Hermione being a better flier than she's given credit for, and the points about house rivalry were interesting too. I agree she's probably a competent flier when she needs to be and that she likes Quiddtich, though I think that she's good enough or enthusiastic enough to actually make the team. Hannah From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 20:00:22 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:00:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why did Hermione Lie In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050330200022.72042.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126803 --- moondance241 wrote: > Reading SS/PS again, I was again struck by the question of why > Hermione decided to lie about the troll in the bathroom. Prior to > this incident, Ron had hurt her feelings so much, she was hiding > out in the bathroom crying. She'd been at odds with Harry and Ron > about losing points for Griffyndor. Basically, there was not a > sign there would be a friendship there. Knowing 11 year olds (I > have one), I would think she'd be more likely to tell on the boys > (even with the risk of losing > more points) then to lie for for them. I haven't figured out her > motivation. Is it just author license to bring the three together? Those two guys just risked their lives or at least their health for her sake, you better believe she's not going to let them lose points or get punished for her sake. She was grateful. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tmar78 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 20:11:59 2005 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:11:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Things better for House Elves? (was Re: Lucius Malfoy's In-Reply-To: <1112202463.94975.54378.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050330201159.70206.qmail@web14126.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126804 Tyler: > Has anyone else wondered just how LV's fall improved > the daily lives of British House Elves? They would > all still be tied to the same families who would still > be able to treat them just as ruthlessly as before. > After all, as far as we know from canon, no one > actually monitors HE living conditions, to make sure > they're being treated properly. So what's changed? "deborahhbbrd": House elves are non-human, right? Consider what their lives would have been like if the bad guys had won. Nasty, poor, brutish and very, very short. So a defeat for LV is a victory for them, even if it leaves their living conditions unchanged. Tyler again: Nasty, poor, and brutish, yes. Short? I'm not so sure. I think even the DEs would have enough sense to realize you don't want to kill your servant (at least not until you get a replacement) or else you'll be stuck doing the cooking, cleaning, etc. I see nothing to in canon to suggest that HEs were being killed for sport the way muggles were. I think they were just treated like dirt. Which is why I have a difficult time understanding whats different. www.redmeat.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 20:23:09 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:23:09 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: <01711254.20050330114854@vcem.com> References: <01711254.20050330114854@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126805 Susanne: > > > And if it is Ron, Ginny and Neville (or another character), > > where is Hermione? > > Actually, I think Hermione is right next to Ron. > > To me it looks like Ron and Hermione on one side, and Ginny > on the other. > > I can't imagine the person next to Ron being Neville, but I > could be mistaken. Lindsay: Mugglenet is saying the same thing, that it's Hermione, but honestly, I can't see it. It definitely looks like a girl, but her hair is short, which Hermione's is not, does not look at all bushy, and looks more black than brown. So unless Hermione dyes her hair and cuts it, I can't see it. Let's look at the other books, both front and back cover, On SS, we saw Harry, Fluffy and Dumbledore, all of which are new characters. On CoS, we saw Fawkes (new), Ron and Ginny, who is kinda new because we never really got to meet her before. It is also a picture of a scene, which the first book was not. On PoA, we again see a scene, but we see Buckbeak (new), Sirius (new), Dementors (kinda counts as new), and Hermione, but again, this is a scene. On GoF, not a scene. We saw Cedric, Victor and Fleur on the front, all new. On OotP, we saw Moody (who we had not met real one before), Tonks (new) and what I think is Lupin, although it could also be Mundungus (new). They are all in the Black house, I think, I think that is Phineas's (new!) portrait on the wall behind them. OotP certainly had a scene with Harry in the Ministry, but I don't think this is an actual scene, but rather a collage like SS and GoF. So. On HBP we could certainly HAVE a scene with Dumbledore/Harry, but I'm going more for a collage for the bottom half (which I think will be the back cover, although something else entirely could be). We have already seen Ginny, Ron and Hermione, all in scene-only instances, nothing where it is particularly them. So I if the three people are supposed to be new characters, or at least people we have not really met before, then it could very well be Lily on the right, and two completely new people on the left. Ginny/Lily has a very concerned, sad look on her face as she looks up at Harry, which leads me to lean more towards Lily, as I would imagine Ginny more trying to do something instead of just gazing sadly. Oh well. --Lindsay From siskiou at vcem.com Wed Mar 30 20:41:35 2005 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:41:35 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: References: <01711254.20050330114854@vcem.com> Message-ID: <115765323.20050330124135@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126806 Hi, Wednesday, March 30, 2005, 12:23:09 PM, Lindsay wrote: > Mugglenet is saying the same thing, that it's Hermione, but honestly, > I can't see it. It definitely looks like a girl, but her hair is > short, which Hermione's is not, does not look at all bushy, and looks > more black than brown. So unless Hermione dyes her hair and cuts it, > I can't see it. I'm looking at the "huge" version on TLC, and the girl's hair does not look black to me in the least. And I don't see the hair being short, either, except the bangs and some fringes around the face. I think it's Hermione. And the boy next to her has red hair and a long nose, so I think that's definitely Ron (maybe his freckles fade with age?). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 21:26:44 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:26:44 -0000 Subject: Lucius, Dobby and side #3 was:Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126807 > > vmonte: > > Or then again, Thursday may have a point here. Lucius could've been > thinking that the diary just might kill two birds with one stone. > Maybe he was hoping that Diary Tom and Voldemort would wipe each > other out (as well as wiping out Harry), and leave the playing field > open for his own rise. > a_svirn: I don't think that Lucius is overly powerful wizard or that he is breathtakingly brilliant but I think he is shrewd enough not to plan anything so ill-judged. How one can let lose so dangerous a force as the diary Tom in HOPE that he would wipe out LV (who is in hiding after all) and get Harry in the process? Some plan indeed. It was a pure chance that Harry came by the diary. And even then he could simply flush it down the toilet. Or he could show it somebody who could recognize it for the dark magic artefact it was. Or McGonagall could confiscate it when Lucius's own clueless son tried to take it from Harry. Moreover, how was Lucius to know that Ginny had a crush on Harry and would regale Tom with the stories of Harry's heroic deeds? Because he learned how LW powers were destroyed from Ginny, not from Lucius. "And why did you want to meet me?" said Harry. Anger was coursing through him, and it was an effort to keep his voice steady. "Well, you see, Ginny told me all about you, Harry," said Riddle. "Your whole fascinating history. " His eyes roved over the lightning scar on Harry's forehead, and their expression grew hungrier. "I knew I must find out more about you, talk to you, meet you if I could." And later: "Haven't I already told you," said Riddle quietly, "that killing Mudbloods doesn't matter to me anymore? For many months now, my new target has been -you." Which means, I suppose, that initially when he started his games with Ginny his goal WAS killing Mudbloods. Moreover it looks like Lucius purposely withheld certain very important information from Tom. Probably so that Tom wouldn't wander from the suggested course? a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 21:30:39 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:30:39 -0000 Subject: The Seven Charms in HPSS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: > > > Each charm (in order) that guarded the Stone has so far been related > to the plot in each book. So, we can assume that will continue to be > the case. > > 1. The 3 headed dog (HRH), 2. the devils snare (plant cure for those > petrified by the monster), 3. keys - Sirus freed, 4. chess game - Tri- > wizard Tournament, 5. troll who did not have to be defeated (I get > stuck here), 6. potions/Prof. Snape, 7. THE MIRROR > > What do you think the undefeated troll means in relation to OOP? > > I think that Snape will be a key figure in HBP if JKR set out the 7 > themes in SS. > > And of course a MIRROR will tie up the entire story. > > That troll has me stumped tho, any ideas? I'm sure you do. a_svirn: What the Troll has to do with anything? He didn't guard the stone. From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 21:34:38 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:34:38 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: <115765323.20050330124135@vcem.com> References: <01711254.20050330114854@vcem.com> <115765323.20050330124135@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126809 Susanne: > I'm looking at the "huge" version on TLC, and the girl's > hair does not look black to me in the least. > > And I don't see the hair being short, either, except the > bangs and some fringes around the face. > > I think it's Hermione. > > And the boy next to her has red hair and a long nose, so I > think that's definitely Ron (maybe his freckles fade with > age?). Lindsay: Well, we can agree to disagree, Susanne. ;) I have been inspecting the huge version as well, and while that could be dark brown hair, in PoA GrandPre drew Hermione with very light brown hair, not dark, which leads me to believe it is not her. Also, if you inspect just above the girl's shoulder, there is a change of lighting from dark to green as if the girl's hair curves down to the base of her neck, as if it is short. It also is cut short just above her shirt collar on the front side, and Hermione doesn't strike me as a girl to have her hair layered. Bangs, yes, layered hair? No. Try pushing up the contrast and brightness on your monitor and take a good look again, or use a graphics program to do so. I'll try doing that later tonight and saving an image if there is a real profound difference. As for the boy, yes, I could definitely see him being Ron, except for four things: Chin is too sharp, face is too delicate (Ron has a long nose but more of a rounded face, the boy looks more like Malfoy than Ron), no freckles, and he's wearing what definitely looks to be green scarf. The left-side girl is wearing a light blue shirt, which might mean she's a Ravenclaw, and we don't really see any clothing (woohoo! er, sorry) on Ginny (Lily). The girl is PROBABLY Ginny, because her eyes look brown, but then again, they are kinda small and hard to see. Anyway, just a matter of opinion. ;) I doubt that Scholastic would actually answer the question like Bloomsbury did for the adult edition cover concerning Borage. --Lindsay From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 21:38:09 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:38:09 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Seven Charms in HPSS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126810 > a_svirn: > > What the Troll has to do with anything? He didn't guard the stone. Lindsay: Yea, actually, he did. We saw the troll twice - once in the girl's lavatory, and once down on the puzzles. But by the time the kids got to the troll the second time, it had already been knocked unconcious by Quirrel!Mort, and thus they didn't have to deal with it. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 21:41:37 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:41:37 -0000 Subject: The Seven Charms in HPSS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lindsay wrote: > > a_svirn: > > > > What the Troll has to do with anything? He didn't guard the stone. > > Lindsay: > > Yea, actually, he did. We saw the troll twice - once in the girl's > lavatory, and once down on the puzzles. But by the time the kids got > to the troll the second time, it had already been knocked unconcious > by Quirrel!Mort, and thus they didn't have to deal with it. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 21:42:50 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:42:50 -0000 Subject: The Seven Charms in HPSS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126812 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lindsay wrote: > > a_svirn: > > > > What the Troll has to do with anything? He didn't guard the stone. > > Lindsay: > > Yea, actually, he did. We saw the troll twice - once in the girl's > lavatory, and once down on the puzzles. But by the time the kids got > to the troll the second time, it had already been knocked unconcious > by Quirrel!Mort, and thus they didn't have to deal with it. a_svirn: Oops, sorry! My mistake. I've just looked it up myself. From siskiou at vcem.com Wed Mar 30 21:44:17 2005 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:44:17 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: References: <01711254.20050330114854@vcem.com> <115765323.20050330124135@vcem.com> Message-ID: <61877030.20050330134417@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126813 Hi, Wednesday, March 30, 2005, 1:34:38 PM, Lindsay wrote: > Try pushing up the contrast and brightness on your monitor and take a > good look again, or use a graphics program to do so. I'll try doing > that later tonight and saving an image if there is a real profound > difference. Um, I think I'll agree to disagree ;) > As for the boy, yes, I could definitely see him being Ron, except for > four things: Chin is too sharp, face is too delicate (Ron has a long > nose but more of a rounded face, the boy looks more like Malfoy than > Ron), no freckles, and he's wearing what definitely looks to be green > scarf. Ron has grown a lot and peoples' faces change when they get older. He looks to be wearing a green jacket and I don't see a scarf (I think what you see as a scarf I see as the jacket collar), but anyhow, I'll agree to disagree on that, too. Time for me to get ready for work as it is... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From sharon8880 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 15:25:08 2005 From: sharon8880 at yahoo.com (sharon) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:25:08 -0000 Subject: New HBP Promo Artwork Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126814 Over at TLC, there is some new HBP promo artwork posted that shows the question being asked "Who is the Half Blood Prince? Find out in 50 days". So I guess that blows the theory that the HBP is a potion. It really is a person. Sharon From sharon8880 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 17:13:35 2005 From: sharon8880 at yahoo.com (sharon) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:13:35 -0000 Subject: Why did Hermione Lie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "moondance241" wrote: > > > Reading SS/PS again, I was again struck by the question of why Hermione > decided to lie about the troll in the bathroom. Prior to this > incident, Ron had hurt her feelings so much, she was hiding out in the > bathroom crying. She'd been at odds with Harry and Ron about losing > points for Griffyndor. Basically, there was not a sign there would be > a friendship there. Knowing 11 year olds (I have one), I would think > she'd be more likely to tell on the boys (even with the risk of losing > more points) then to lie for for them. I haven't figured out her > motivation. Is it just author license to bring the three together? > Any other ideas (besides you shippers!!)? I think the main reason was because they had just saved her from the troll. Her lie saved them from punishment. This evened the score. Neither party would owe anything to the other. But let's take this one step further. Why did Ron & Harry try to save her in the first place? Other than this is one of the first incidents to evidence Harry's "gotta save somebody" need. I don't understand their motivation. Sharon From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 17:45:16 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:45:16 -0000 Subject: Why did Hermione Lie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126816 "moondance241" wrote: > Reading SS/PS again, I was again struck by the question of why >Hermione decided to lie about the troll in the bathroom. Prior to >this incident, Ron had hurt her feelings so much, she was hiding >out in the bathroom crying. She'd been at odds with Harry and Ron >about losing points for Griffyndor. Basically, there was not a >sign there would be a friendship there. Knowing 11 year olds (I >have one), I would think she'd be more likely to tell on the boys >(even with the risk of losing more points) then to lie for for >them. I haven't figured out her motivation. Is it just author >license to bring the three together? Well I think that the fact that they had just gone out of their way to find her in order to rescue her from the troll, then having found her being attacked by it they proceeded to risk their skins to save hers, is plenty of motivation for her! The only part of it that I wondered about, was Hermione's wisdom in saying that she'd deliberately gone after the troll when the boys hadn't actually been doing anything wrong. They were being taken back to their dorms after the 'Troll Alert' had been given when they suddenly remembered being told that Hermiome was crying in the loo and would not know about the Troll and felt guilty that she was there because they had upset her, so rushed to her aid instinctively. I suspect that if anyone would have got into trouble it would be Hermione 'deliberately' seeking out the troll rather than them rushing off on a whim. Karen From cwood at tattersallpub.com Wed Mar 30 17:43:46 2005 From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (MsTattersall) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:43:46 -0000 Subject: Constellations reveal HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126817 In this morning's Dallas Morning News' family/kids section, there was a star map of the April constellations and descriptions of the various constellations visible. The identity of the HBP leaped out at me when I read the description of the constellation Leo. Its principal star is REGULUS, which the article pointed out means "little prince." The teaser paragraph from HBP we have all read describes someone as looking like an "old lion." If Sirius was named for the principal star in the constellation Canis Major (Big Dog) (also described in the DMN article), and his general aspect, as well as his animagus form, is a big dog, can we then assume that the name of his younger brother, Regulus, was derived in a similar way from the constellation LEO? Now a big hint from canon: OotP, p. 111 (US). Sirius says, "Because I hated the whole lot of them: my parents, with their pureblood mania, convinced that to be a Black made you practically ROYAL [emphasis added] ... my idiot brother, soft enough to believe them ..." On the following page, Sirius describes how Regulus joined the Death Eaters but backed out when he found out what they wanted him to do, and that he was killed for it. But was he really? Sirius has only secondhand information and doesn't actually know who killed him. Everyone thought Peter Pettigrew was dead, too. I submit that Regulus Black is not only alive, but is the Half-Blood Prince; and in book 6 we will discover that the House of Black isn't as "toujours pur" as advertised. It also opens up all kinds of tinned invertebrates about the disposition of 12 Grimmauld Place and the future of the Order. I also submit that it will be revealed that what the Death Eaters wanted him to do was participate in the Godric's Hollow affair, as OotP says that he was killed 15 years ago--right about that same time. Which means Regulus, when he appears, can sort out a lot of unanswered questions. Probably this theory has already been floated on this list (I posted it on OT-Chatter to begin with), but this is the report of my epiphany! Whew. Thanks. Had to get that out. Ms. Tattersall From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 21:59:54 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:59:54 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius, Dobby and side #3 was:Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126818 Lindsay: I'll step in with a_svirn and reply to this thread a bit late. I meant to earlier, but never actually did. My initial reaction to CoS when I read it concerning Lucius was this: Snape told Lucius that Voldemort was back in a sorts, in that he had been possessing Quirrell for the schoolyear. Lucius, who up until now had done absolutely nothing to look for Voldemort, would look in a very bad light if Voldemort showed up again soon. I don't think Lucius completely knew the diary's capabilities, he may not have known that Riddle's fifteen year old memory could come to life through it. But whether or not he did doesn't matter for this. But anyway, he went to Diagon Alley that day with the plans of slipping that diary to some Hogwarts student. He wouldn't know too much about the students, but from Draco he probably knew which kids were rule-followers and would turn in a strange, magical diary, so he would find one, probably a girl who would be more inclined to write in a diary, and slip it into their books or whatever. It was just by chance that the Weasleys were there that day, and just by chance that he got the oppurtunity to give it to Ginny. I imagine that Lucius probably reasoned that Riddle would do his thing, open the Chamber, but that eventually Dumbledore would weed out which student it was and take the diary from them. Lucius may hate Dumbledore, but if Voldemort respects Dumbledore's capabilities as a wizard, Lucius probably does, too. And, if some Mudbloods got killed along the way and Dumbledore removed as Headmaster (and if Lucius knew about, a new Riddle "born"), then all the better. Lucius could probably pressure the Governors into getting a new Headmaster that was more to Lucius's liking - perhaps Snape. With this new Headmaster in charge that Lucius trusts, or at least controls, he would then tell Snape etc. what was causing the attacks. The new Headmaster would "discover" the malicious diary that was possessing students, saves the day, becomes the hero and ensures their place as Headmaster. Meanwhile, Dumbledore would be discredited and not in a position of power over the school anymore. So when Voldemort comes back, either through whatever means or through Riddle, Lucius could say, "Look, my lord, look what I did for you!" and get rewarded, etc. etc. That was my initial reaction to this whole CoS fiasco. However, I can see the theories that Lucius is a survivalist first and could potentially play both sides like I imagine Snape is doing, that Lucius set Dobby up to warn and keep Harry from Hogwarts so that Harry would not spoil the fun like he did end up doing (because as that night in GH and as PS/SS shows, Harry has a knack for doing such things, and it's better not to risk it), etc. I think they're all credible theories, but like most things, I tend to want to go with my gut instinct, and mine is "slightly concerned Lucius who is preparing his lines for the Dark Lord's return." From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 17:54:47 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:54:47 -0000 Subject: The Seven Charms in HPSS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126819 "B.G." wrote: Each charm (in order) that guarded the Stone has so far been related to the plot in each book. So, we can assume that will continue to be the case. 1. The 3 headed dog (HRH), 2. the devils snare (plant cure for those petrified by the monster), 3. keys - Sirus freed, 4. chess game - Tri- wizard Tournament, 5. troll who did not have to be defeated (I get stuck here), 6. potions/Prof. Snape, 7. THE MIRROR > That troll has me stumped tho, any ideas? I'm sure you do. Well I hadn't noticed those connections before, but you have a very good point. The thing that immediately springs to mind is perhaps it's referring to the fact that Dumbledore did not try and kill Voldemort in the MoM (presumably because that's Harry's job if he's to be got rid of permenantly), so Troll didn't have to be defeated = LV not to be defeated by DD? - Just an idea! Another idea, is that your No 6 referring to potions/Snape, makes me wonder if it's actually Hermione that's the point of this. It was her excellent brain power that solved the riddle of the potions, perhaps these qualities of hers are going to be key in getting them through whatever is coming up in book 6? Thank you for your prompting! Karen From bledsoe_stephanie at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 18:34:46 2005 From: bledsoe_stephanie at yahoo.com (bledsoe_stephanie) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:34:46 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin - EUREKA ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126820 > > Molley here: > Oh My Gosh!! Is it possible to infer from this that DD is immortal? Well, > not exactly immortal, but can die and resurrect himself? Is this the reason > Voldemort is afraid of him? Think about it - if DD was merely a very > powerful wizard he could still be defeated by superior strategy, favorable > opportunity/timing and/or sheer dumb luck. I've always felt there was > *something* more concrete to the fear of LV than the mere "powerful wizard" > argument. Any thoughts? I think that you may be on to something. Rowling has said that someone dies in HBP and it could very well be Dumbledore. Maybe he will come back in the last book. Different aspects of the plot seem to come back to Fawkes. This is definitley something to think about! From BamaJenny12 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 18:54:37 2005 From: BamaJenny12 at yahoo.com (bamajenny12) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:54:37 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why did Hermione Lie References: Message-ID: <00a801c53559$ed942e40$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126821 Moondance241 wrote: Reading SS/PS again, I was again struck by the question of why Hermione decided to lie about the troll in the bathroom. Prior to this incident, Ron had hurt her feelings so much, she was hiding out in the bathroom crying. She'd been at odds with Harry and Ron about losing points for Griffyndor. Basically, there was not a sign there would be a friendship there. Knowing 11 year olds (I have one), I would think she'd be more likely to tell on the boys (even with the risk of losing more points) then to lie for for them. I haven't figured out her motivation. Is it just author license to bring the three together? Any other ideas (besides you shippers!!)? Jenny here: No matter what had happened before, Harry and Ron had just come to her rescue and quite possibly saved her life. Hermione was probably (rightfully!) grateful to the boys and didn't want to see them get into more trouble. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonisan9 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 30 19:08:16 2005 From: tonisan9 at hotmail.com (tonihollifield) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:08:16 -0000 Subject: A question on Sirius and his vault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126822 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, laurie goudge > wrote: > > > > Hello everyone: > > > > ...edited... > > > > ... At the end when Sirius sends Harry the note confirming it was > > him who sent the new broom and Crookshanks was the one who did the > > ordering I wondered--how did Crookshanks get the money from > > Sirius's vault without raising alarm bells? ...Didn't whomever gave > > Crookshanks the money realize the vault ... belonged to a fellon? > > ... > > > > ... it's been nagging me as to how Sirius was able to pay for Harry's > > new broom and not get caught the instant his vault was accessed.... It had occurred to me that Gringotts might work something like a Swiss bank, where accounts can be accessed only by account number (or in this case, vault number), and not by name. Since in SS, Hagrid asked to withdraw from Harry's vault, there must be names on at least some of the vaults, but maybe there's an option to just use numbers (such as the vault the stone was stored in.) If that's the case, then Sirius' vault could have been accessed without his name having to come up at all. Just a thought, Toni From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Mar 30 22:11:44 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:11:44 -0000 Subject: Beware the lighting (was Re: Full HBP cover artwork) In-Reply-To: <61877030.20050330134417@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126823 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Wednesday, March 30, 2005, 1:34:38 PM, Lindsay wrote: > > > Try pushing up the contrast and brightness on your monitor and take a > > good look again, or use a graphics program to do so. I'll try doing > > that later tonight and saving an image if there is a real profound > > difference. > > Um, I think I'll agree to disagree ;) > > > As for the boy, yes, I could definitely see him being Ron, except for > > four things: Chin is too sharp, face is too delicate (Ron has a long > > nose but more of a rounded face, the boy looks more like Malfoy than > > Ron), no freckles, and he's wearing what definitely looks to be green > > scarf. > > Ron has grown a lot and peoples' faces change when they get > older. > He looks to be wearing a green jacket and I don't see a > scarf (I think what you see as a scarf I see as the jacket > collar), but anyhow, I'll agree to disagree on that, too. > > Time for me to get ready for work as it is... > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne mailto:siskiou at v... Let me add that I also think what we are seeing is Ron and Hermione on the left and Ginny on the right. I think we should beware trying to interpret the colors too closely. The whole scene, both top and bottom, is awash in green light. Gran Pre most likely drew the colors "true." I.E. she drew them as she thought they would appear when viewed in green light. Thus Hermione's hair is darker than it would appear in standard lighting, Ron's freckles are washed out and his hair is more brownish than usual, and Ron's robe (I think it is a robe, not a jacket) appears green when it is probably in fact the standard Hogwart's black. Lupinlore From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 22:11:52 2005 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:11:52 -0000 Subject: Why did Hermione Lie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126824 I never understood her lie either when the truth works just fine. She could have just as easily said "I was in here upset and the boys came to warn me. The troll beat them here and they saved my life." Jason --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "moondance241" wrote: > > > Reading SS/PS again, I was again struck by the question of why Hermione > decided to lie about the troll in the bathroom. Prior to this > incident, Ron had hurt her feelings so much, she was hiding out in the > bathroom crying. She'd been at odds with Harry and Ron about losing > points for Griffyndor. Basically, there was not a sign there would be > a friendship there. Knowing 11 year olds (I have one), I would think > she'd be more likely to tell on the boys (even with the risk of losing > more points) then to lie for for them. I haven't figured out her > motivation. Is it just author license to bring the three together? > Any other ideas (besides you shippers!!)? > > Moondance From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Mar 30 22:20:29 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:20:29 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] New HBP Promo Artwork Message-ID: <1da.3940592c.2f7c802d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126825 In a message dated 3/30/2005 4:05:38 PM Central Standard Time, sharon8880 at yahoo.com writes: Over at TLC, there is some new HBP promo artwork posted that shows the question being asked "Who is the Half Blood Prince? Find out in 50 days". So I guess that blows the theory that the HBP is a potion. It really is a person. Sharon What puzzles me is the "50 days" portion. HBP's release date is 106 days away. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Mar 30 22:20:25 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:20:25 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126826 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lindsay wrote: > > Lindsay: Also, > if you inspect just above the girl's shoulder, there is a change of > lighting from dark to green as if the girl's hair curves down to the > base of her neck, as if it is short. It also is cut short just above > her shirt collar on the front side, and Hermione doesn't strike me as > a girl to have her hair layered. Bangs, yes, layered hair? No. Hickengruendler: I think this is because she's wearing an anorak, just like Ron does. The anorak covers a part of the hair. I'm not 100% sure, but I think you can see a collar covering the hair. Anyway, I'm absolutely sure that this girl is Hermione, she looks like the Hermione on some of the Grand-Pre drawings I saw in the internet, for example for the chapter "The Woes Of Mrs Weasley". It's exactly the same face, except that the hair on the new cover is shorter, but like I said, IMo that's because of the collar. Hickengruendler From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Mar 30 22:28:05 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:28:05 -0000 Subject: HP Conventional Wisdom Watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126827 Just thought I'd add a couple that have just occurred to me: MARY GRAND PRE: Rising. Historically she has been JKR's favorite illustrator, and her artwork for HBP has inspired a storm of speculation about plot and character in Book VI. I hope for Scholastic's sake that her contract isn't up for renegotiation. THE DA: Rising. Despite a large group of fans who think it has served its purpose, majority opinion is that it will figure large in Book VI and VII, and perhaps be a major factor in Harry's own rise to greater stature. QUIDDITCH: Rising. Although there has been some speculation that the game may be getting old, and that it is time for Harry to "put away childish things," the vast majority seem to think that, after relative absence in the last two books, Quidditch will roar back in Book VI. Recreation is even more important in a time of war, and Harry needs SOMETHING to take his mind off his troubles and grief. Besides, betting on the identity of the new Captain is getting to be a VERY popular passtime among fans. THE SCHOLASTIC MARKETING TEAM: Rising. After an overkill campaign for OOTP that was partially responsible for some of the book's badly mixed reception, they appear to have learned their lesson. So far their campaign has been restrained and carefully timed, with images and bits of information released in such a way as to incite large- scale speculation without the over-the-top furor that preceded OOTP. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Mar 30 22:30:22 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:30:22 -0000 Subject: New HBP Promo Artwork In-Reply-To: <1da.3940592c.2f7c802d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 3/30/2005 4:05:38 PM Central Standard Time, > sharon8880 at y... writes: > Over at TLC, there is some new HBP promo artwork posted that shows > the question being asked "Who is the Half Blood Prince? Find out > in 50 days". So I guess that blows the theory that the HBP is a > potion. It really is a person. > Sharon > What puzzles me is the "50 days" portion. HBP's release date is 106 days > away. > > Melissa > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Remember, this is a stand-up advertisement display designed to be used in bookstores. We are seeing advanced images. Most likely the display will go up 50 days in advance of HBP release. It probably also has changeable numbers so that the stores can do a countdown. Lupinlore From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 22:46:50 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:46:50 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126829 Ok here is my take on this: One the left is Ron and Hermione. On the right is Lily in the pensive. If you look closely, she looks as if part of her body is swimming in the pensive. Also what do the symbols around the pensive says? This may also be a clue. Can anyone figure that out? It would be ruins or hieroglyphics. I suspect hieroglyphics because the handle of the Firebold broom is in hieroglyphics and I think that we will see something about Eygpt again. So Ron and Hermoine watch as DD and Harry look into... whos pensive??? Who else was there that night? Just what did Snape put in his pensive? Was it Snape or someone else? Or ??? Tonks_op From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 23:12:24 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:12:24 -0000 Subject: A question on Sirius and his vault - Hagrid, Molly, Harry, Goblins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tonihollifield" wrote: > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, laurie goudge > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello everyone: > > > > > > ...edited... > > > > > > ... At the end when Sirius sends Harry the note confirming it was > > > him who sent the new broom and Crookshanks was the one who did > the > > > ordering I wondered--how did Crookshanks get the money from > > > Sirius's vault without raising alarm bells? > > > ... > > > > > > ... it's been nagging me as to how Sirius was able to pay for > > > Harry's new broom and not get caught the instant his vault was > > > accessed.... > Toni: > > It had occurred to me that Gringotts might work something like a > Swiss bank, where accounts can be accessed only by account number. > ...and not by name. Since in SS, Hagrid asked to withdraw from > Harry's vault, there must be names ...(or) an option to just use > numbers... If that's the case, then Sirius' vault could have been > accessed without his name having to come up at all. > > Just a thought, > > Toni bboyminn: I think you are generally on the right track, Gringotts is somewhat like Swiss Banks, but it's not so much the numbers themselves as the fact the Swiss Bankers recognise that individual financial matters are Private business. One way of handling /private/ financial matters is with numbered accounts. As to Hagrid, remember that Harry was with Hagrid at the time, and Hagrid also had the key to the vault, these factors surely carried some weight with the Goblin banker. More significant is the fact the Molly Weasley has accessed Harry's bank vault several times, most of those times with Harry's implied permission, but none that I can recall in which Harry gave his direct expressed or written permission. External to the story, that was simply a way for the author to speed things up, and keep the plot moving by avoiding a side-track trip to Diagon Alley. Must simpler from a writer's perspective to have Molly do it off-page. Internal to the story, I have always speculated that one of the reasons the Goblins are so successfull as bankers is because they have a kind of magical sixth sense that allows them to detect the validity of a request to accesss a bank vault. So, they could sense that both Sirius's and Molly's request were valid authorized request to access and remove gold from a given bank vault. For the record, here is what Sirius actually said- - - - PoA, Am Ed, Pb, pg 433 - - - Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me. I used /your name/ but told them to take the gold from my own Gringotts vault. - - - end quote - - - 'I used your name...', that could mean that the order said, send the order to Harry Potter, but I'm paying (vault 711). The same as if you credit-card mail-ordered a birthday present for someone and had it sent directly to their house; ordered by one person, delivered to another. Alternately, it could imply some financial association between Harry and Sirius. It could imply that Harry's /name/ somehow has the authority to access Sirius's bank vault; perhaps by virtue of Sirius being his Godfather. Again, we could be faced with the Goblin's magical /validation/ that confirmed that Harry was indeed authorized to transfer gold from that numbered vault. There could be some significants in this last possiblility regarding the disposition of the Black Estate. It might imply that long ago, some connection had been made between Harry and Sirius. Perhaps, Harry is already authorized to control or at least gain access to the Black Family money, or perhaps just Sirius's personal money. Last note, if Sirius signed the mail-order form, then his signature could have been sufficient verification to authorize the transfer of money to the Quidditch supply company. But wouldn't that mean that whoever processed the order at the Quidditch supply company would have seen Sirius Black's signature? I guess it's possible that they get so many orders that they don't really look at the names, they simply place the order, and send the order form off to the bank to get the gold transferred. Once they have verification of transfer, they ship the broom off to the specified delivery address. When you process a lot of paperwork like that sometimes you can see without really seeing. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 23:36:54 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:36:54 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126831 Lindsay wrote: Lindsay: The Leaky Cauldron says that the marketers just released these large stand-up cover art for HBP. At the bottom, there are three kids looking up at Harry and Dumbledore. Here's a large picture: http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/images/2005/03/scholstanduphbphuge.html Who do you think each one is? I definitely think that the right girl is Ginny. To the left, the boy's hair is more brown then red, and no freckles (which Ron normally has when GrandPre draws him), so I don't think that is Ron, nor really any of the Weasleys. My first reaction is Seamus, because the boy's face is too angular to be Neville's...but since we know we're going to be seeing Zabini coming up, that could be him! I *think* that is a green scarve he is wearing. If we go for Slytherin, could also be Nott. Or it could be any number of kids in the DA, but my money is on Blaise, Seamus, Theodore, in that order. vmonte here: Maybe it's Neville's father and mother on the left and Lilly on the right. Vivian From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 30 23:37:24 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:37:24 -0000 Subject: Lucius, Dobby and side #3 was:Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126832 Lindsay: > So when Voldemort comes back, either through whatever means or > through Riddle, Lucius could say, "Look, my lord, look what I did > for you!" and get rewarded, etc. etc. > I think they're all credible theories, but like most things, I > tend to want to go with my gut instinct, and mine is "slightly > concerned Lucius who is preparing his lines for the Dark Lord's > return." SSSusan: I agreed with almost everything you wrote up to this point, but here is where I differ. I've never believed that Lucius' goal was to bring Voldy back. I believe his goal was the other things you suggested -- discrediting DD, perhaps implicating a Weasley, killing a Mudblood or two, maybe getting a new headmaster who suits Lucius better. But *if* the goal was to do something to help Voldy return so that he could brag about what he'd done to try to help him, then why DIDN'T he brag when he first had the chance, when he was called to the graveyard to meet the resurrected Voldy? Some people have argued that anyone would've been too scared to have said that in that moment, but I disagree. I think it'd be more human nature to protest and defend oneself with that, "But, Master, if you only knew what I'd attempted on your behalf...." Siriusly Snapey Susan From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 23:47:45 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:47:45 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126833 Tonks wrote: Ok here is my take on this: One the left is Ron and Hermione. On the right is Lily in the pensive. If you look closely, she looks as if part of her body is swimming in the pensive. Also what do the symbols around the pensive says? This may also be a clue. Can anyone figure that out? It would be ruins or hieroglyphics. I suspect hieroglyphics because the handle of the Firebold broom is in hieroglyphics and I think that we will see something about Eygpt again. So Ron and Hermoine watch as DD and Harry look into... whos pensive??? Who else was there that night? Just what did Snape put in his pensive? Was it Snape or someone else? Or ??? vmonte responds: They're rune symbols. JKR makes a point of Harry noticing the rune symbols around the penseive in OOTP. Vivian From larriepam2000 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 16:48:44 2005 From: larriepam2000 at yahoo.com (larriepam2000) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:48:44 -0000 Subject: A question on Sirius and his vault In-Reply-To: <20050330112331.14223.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126834 > Laurie: >-how did Crookshanks get the money from > Sirius's vault without raising alarm bells? Didn't > occur to the trolls to say no? And if they did > realize it why did TPTB let the money go, didn't they > suspect the note could have been a cover for something > worse? Welcome Laurie. I have often wondered the same thing, I don't have the answers but did you notice that Sirius's vault is #711 and Dumbledore's vault is #713, I find that interesting. What it means, (if anything) I don't know. I suppose that Sirius could be useing the "Black Family" vault. Just a little more to think about. Pam From jlawlor at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 23:57:37 2005 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:57:37 -0600 Subject: Troll in the Dungeon (Was: Why did Hermione Lie) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c8805033015571f9f5fb2@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126835 Moonda > Reading SS/PS again, I was again struck by the question of why Hermione > decided to lie about the troll in the bathroom. Prior to this > incident, Ron had hurt her feelings so much, she was hiding out in the > bathroom crying. This thread brought to mind a question I'd had when re-reading PS (or perhaps just thinking about it one day). Why the fuss over a troll in the dungeon? Obviously this is going to be dangerous, but it can't possibly have been necessary that all of the teachers follow Dumbledore into the dungeon to deal with the troll. Certainly, from his fight with Voldemort in the Ministry, we know that Dumbledore is powerful enough to take care of a troll by himself. And it's not that hard to believe that any of the other major teachers (McGonnagol, Snape, Flitwick etc) would have been able to handle it as well. It would have been safer to say "Students, remain calm, Teachers guard the doors while I (or professor McGonnagol or whomever) take(s) care of the troll" But then I thought about it some more, and I think this rather makes sense: It was a drill. A perfect time to "drill" the students and prefects and give them some sort of experience with a situation where the teachers are unavailable and the Head Boy and Prefects are responsible for getting the younger students to safety. (Obviously getting the troll locked in the girl's bathroom wasn't part of either plan - Dumbledore's nor Harry's). It also has the benefit of keeping the students on their toes - reminding them that the WW is a dangerous place and that Dumbledore and their teachers won't always be able to protect them from it. I wonder what the Puppetmaster!DD people will have to say about this. :D - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From imontero at iname.com Wed Mar 30 17:13:16 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:13:16 -0000 Subject: Why did Hermione Lie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126836 Moondance wrote: > I was again struck by the question of why Hermione decided to > lie about the troll in the bathroom. Prior to this incident, > Ron had hurt her feelings so much, she was hiding out in the > bathroom crying. She'd been at odds with Harry and Ron about > losing points for Gryffindor. Basically, there was not a sign > there would be a friendship there. I would think she'd be more > likely to tell on the boys (even with the risk of losing more > points) than to lie for for them. I think that Hermione lied because Ron and Harry came for her rescue and saved her life putting their own lives in danger. She was touched by this heroic act and also, Hermione, as a character, was designed with a golden heart. She is a Griffindor, telling the truth to save her neck and blaming the guys would have been the reaction of a Slytherin, not of a Gryffindor. Luna From SaturdaySunrise at Aol.com Wed Mar 30 18:22:40 2005 From: SaturdaySunrise at Aol.com (SaturdaySunrise at Aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:22:40 EST Subject: Why did Hermione lie? Message-ID: <154.4e163442.2f7c4870@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126837 I think the fact that Harry and Ron saved Hermione from the troll was what prompted her to lie for them. For me, if someone saved my life, I would do all that I could to repay them... and all Hermione could do to repay Harry and Ron at that particular moment was to blame the whole ordeal on herself, and try to keep Harry and Ron out of further trouble. Just my 2 cents, Courtney From jeterluver2 at aol.com Wed Mar 30 20:05:51 2005 From: jeterluver2 at aol.com (Marissa) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:05:51 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126838 > Hannah: > And if it is Ron, Ginny and Neville (or another character), > where is Hermione? Mugglenet says they're Hermione, Ron and Ginny. :) ~Marissa From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 31 00:16:02 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:16:02 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lindsay wrote: > Lindsay: > > The Leaky Cauldron says that the marketers just released these > large stand-up cover art for HBP. At the bottom, there are three > kids looking up at Harry and Dumbledore. > Who do you think each one is? > Valky: Thanks for posting this Lindsay. I have read all the other opinions, and I agree with the people who say the two on the left are Ron and Hermione and the one on the right is Lily. I noted that the Snake thing was hovering over "Hermione and Ron" on the left, that may be an indication that Harry's friends are in danger from Voldemort. Just aside, pondering on all the deliberation that has been going on over the face shapes and features of the three poeple looking up, I stared for a little while and wondered if perhaps the boy on the left was one of the young marauders. It wouldn't be James as the hair is too neat, but perhaps Sirius or Remus.. Anyhow I couldn't imagine who might be the girl standing beside him, so I didn't go with it for long.. then again if that is a Pensieve then Harry is looking into the past.. OTOH whats with the massive pillar under it? hmmm getting nowhere.. Valky From WNCMegs at aol.com Wed Mar 30 22:00:02 2005 From: WNCMegs at aol.com (megs0124) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:00:02 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126840 > Hannah wrote: > I personally think the boy on the far left is Ron, . > The boy next to him (I thought it was a boy anyway) I > think is Neville, . The red headed girl is probably > Ginny, though maybe it's Lily as you say. If the other > boys are Ron and Neville, it makes more sense for it to be > Ginny. > > What did interest me was the picture of the Dark Mark on the > left halfway down, which appears to be cast into the air above > a town/village skyline (it stretches across the length of the > page). Godric's Hollow in a pensieve? Or Hogsmeade under > attack? I agree with you, Hannah, that the boy on the left is Ron. He is growing older and is becomming settled in his appearence. I believe the person on the right of Ron is Hermione. The girl's hair looks as if it is behind her shoulders, not necessarily cut short like some have been saying. The redheaded woman to the right of the stone basin, which I believe is a Pensieve, is Lily. JKR says we are going to find out more in this book, HBP, about Harry's scar, and about the events surrounding Lily and James' death. The dark mark shown in the picture could be from the night they are killed. Another theory I have is Dumbledore could be showing Harry what he remembers from the events surrounding his parent's death. No, Dumbledore was not there when it happened, but he might be showing Harry details about it. I also believe that this, the Pensieve, is an indication that Dumbledore, not Snape, is going to work with Harry with Occlumency. Yes, Snape might be there to help if needed, but the first set of lessons did not work so well. Plus, if Harry takes potions, which I believe he will from the cover art I have seen of the UK Adult cover. It is of a torn and battered advanced potions book. We might have Harry taking potions and/OR we are going to find out a lot more about Professor Snape (Which I hope for- he is great, mean but great). Megan From SaturdaySunrise at Aol.com Wed Mar 30 22:33:26 2005 From: SaturdaySunrise at Aol.com (SaturdaySunrise at Aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:33:26 EST Subject: Motivation/Saving Hermione [was RE:Why did Hermione Lie] Message-ID: <128.59af0fa3.2f7c8336@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126841 Sharon, I think Harry and Ron were motivated by guilt. After all, the reason Hermione was in the bathroom in the first place was because of Ron's nasty comments. Imagine if the troll attacked Hermione because she was hiding in the girls' bathroom, because Ron made her hide in the girls' bathroom? How would they live with themselves? They couldn't. And they knew that... so they helped her to spare themselves the guilt. =0) Courtney From kennymod at yahoo.com Wed Mar 30 23:01:57 2005 From: kennymod at yahoo.com (kennymod) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:01:57 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126842 It appears to me that there is a dragon on the left above the two figures. "kennymod" From yutu75es at yahoo.es Thu Mar 31 00:29:08 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:29:08 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full HBP cover artwork References: Message-ID: <002f01c53588$a94d7fa0$8000a8c0@casa> No: HPFGUIDX 126843 Fridwulfa: Ok. Here are my two knuts... On the left: Ron and Hermione, on the right, Ginny, though it might be Lilly, she looks a bit older than Ron and Hermione. I've noticed the Deathmark as well, a green outline of a serpent, hovering and the skyline of what looks like a city or maybe a small village (Godric's Hollow?). Could the deathmark be hovering over a house, as it used to when the DEs attacked and killed someone? Most probably, though that's not that big a surprise, is it? Cheers, Fridwulfa From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 00:59:34 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:59:34 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius, Dobby and side #3 was:Lucius Malfoy's Ambition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126844 > SSSusan: > I agreed with almost everything you wrote up to this point, but here > is where I differ. I've never believed that Lucius' goal was to > bring Voldy back. I believe his goal was the other things you > suggested -- discrediting DD, perhaps implicating a Weasley, killing > a Mudblood or two, maybe getting a new headmaster who suits Lucius > better. > > But *if* the goal was to do something to help Voldy return so that > he could brag about what he'd done to try to help him, then why > DIDN'T he brag when he first had the chance, when he was called to > the graveyard to meet the resurrected Voldy? > > Some people have argued that anyone would've been too scared to have > said that in that moment, but I disagree. I think it'd be more > human nature to protest and defend oneself with that, "But, Master, > if you only knew what I'd attempted on your behalf...." Lindsay: I don't think it was Lucius's goal to actually bring Voldemort back through Riddle - if he even knew about the diary's capability to do such a thing - but rather to provide for his scapegoat when the time came that he needed it. Yea, I think that up until PS/SS, Lucius was done with Voldemort in his mind. There's only so many times you can use that Imperio excuse, after all, before you have to start taking the fall in society for your actions, and I think Lucius very well skated the edge when Voldemort disappeared in Godric's Hollow. Lucius didn't do it for any one reason - he had the potential to gain in a lot of different ways. Killing multiple birds with one stone sort of thing. But I think what prompted him to action was Snape telling him about Quirrell!Mort, otherwise, why didn't he try something like this much much sooner, during the ten years when Heroic!Harry would not have been a problem? And as for speaking up, Avery did and got Crucio'ed. I don't think Voldemort was quite in a receiving mood for their excuses at the time, and they all knew it - I imagine this would have been something he found out by-the-by. Probably from Wormtail, actually, since he was around for the whole thing, and Lucius probably did not directly tell him. Nor do I think Lucius would directly tell him, because then it looks like a whiney excuse. He would make sure that SOMEONE mentioned it to Voldemort, though, when they recounted what had happened for the past two years after PS/SS. --Lindsay From kking0731 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 01:00:30 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:00:30 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: <002f01c53588$a94d7fa0$8000a8c0@casa> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126845 I just checked out the photo and it looks like a young James and Lily looking up at the morsemordre symbol, possibly over one of their families houses. The figure on the right of the pencieve looks like an older Lily possibly speaking through the pencieve. The symbols around the edge of the pencieve are not very distinct but the first one on the left looks like a serpant and one at the right just before the crack looks like a man's face maybe Salazar just before the crack in the relationship with the other three founders. Snow From leslie.s.bennett at lmco.com Thu Mar 31 00:52:00 2005 From: leslie.s.bennett at lmco.com (moondance241) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:52:00 -0000 Subject: Why did Hermione Lie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126846 Karen wrote: > > The only part of it that I wondered about was Hermione's wisdom > in saying that she'd deliberately gone after the troll when the > boys hadn't actually been doing anything wrong. They were being > taken back to their dorms after the 'Troll Alert' had been given > when they suddenly remembered being told that Hermiome was crying > in the loo and would not know about the Troll and felt guilty > that she was there because they had upset her, so rushed to her > aid instinctively. I suspect that if anyone would have got into > trouble it would be Hermione 'deliberately' seeking out the troll > rather than them rushing off on a whim. Moondance: This is what I was trying to say, though you were able to actually "verablize" it. :-) Why did Hermione say she was trying to take care of the troll instead of the truth. She could have softened it so as to not get the boys in trouble without the fabrication. I just find it interesting. Moondance From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 01:23:08 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:23:08 -0000 Subject: The Seven Charms in HPSS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126847 Karen wrote: Another idea, is that your No 6 referring to potions/Snape, makes me wonder if it's actually Hermione that's the point of this. It was her excellent brain power that solved the riddle of the potions, perhaps these qualities of hers are going to be key in getting them through whatever is coming up in book 6? vmonte: I agree with you Karen, I've also mentioned this before. I think that Hermione will help Harry out by figuring out something important using her logical mind. I keep thinking about how Hermione knew what Lupin was in PoA, but how she kept it to herself until the end of the book. I think she will figure out something important about Snape which will not be revealed until the end of book 7. Maybe Harry will eventually show Hermione Snape's penseive memory and she will see something Harry never noticed before. Vivian From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 02:18:39 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:18:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question on Sirius and his vault In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050331021839.42607.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126848 > Pam: > did you notice that Sirius's vault is #711 > and Dumbledore's vault is #713, I find that > interesting. What it means, (if anything) I don't > know. I suppose that Sirius could be using the > "Black Family" vault. But if so, and it having been stated that Sirius's ma was dead for some time now, you'd kinda think questions would be raised. But then I tend to be kinda nitpicky with details like that. Laurie From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 02:33:52 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:33:52 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marissa" wrote: > > > Hannah: > > And if it is Ron, Ginny and Neville (or another character), > > where is Hermione? > > > Mugglenet says they're Hermione, Ron and Ginny. :) Unless they were told, Mugglenet's opinion is as good as ours. I didn't see their basis for saying it's them, but I agree that it is Ron, Hermione, and Ginny. Ron and Ginny have the same color hair (don't forget that the red is muted by the greenish cast of everything). Ron's profile looks about the same as a chapter header Mary GrandPre did in GoF. I think they're looking up at the Dark Mark, not Harry and Dumbledore. somebody said the Pensieve was "too tall." I'm sure it's setting on a pedestal or table for the purposes of the artwork. Jim Ferer From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 02:36:52 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:36:52 -0000 Subject: The Seven Charms in HPSS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126850 vmonte wrote: > I think she will figure out something important about Snape which > will not be revealed until the end of book 7. Maybe Harry will > eventually show Hermione Snape's penseive memory and she will see > something Harry never noticed before. Carol responds: I don't see how that would be possible. Surely the memory is back in Snape's head. He wouldn't have stored it in the Pensieve. And Harry has not reached the level of Occlumency that allows him to take memories from his own head, much less choose to take his own memory of *someone else's* memory and put it in a Pensieve. He certainly wouldn't be able to take the memory directly from Snape's head! I do think that Hermione will see something about Harry himself that he never noticed before. I predict that she'll recognize the "lightning bolt" scar as, in fact, a rune--eihwaz, probably, since Hermione already mentioned it, but possibly a different rune. Or Luna will mention it, Hermione will scoff, and then she'll realize that Luna is right and rush to the library. As for revelations about Snape, I think they'll come in Book 7, via Snape himself. But, of course, I'm only guessing. Carol, who will gladly trade someone's cold weather for her spring allergies From peckham at cyberramp.net Thu Mar 31 03:21:39 2005 From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 03:21:39 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kennymod" wrote: > > It appears to me that there is a dragon on the left above the two > figures. > > "kennymod" That is not a dragon, it is a Dark Mark. The appearance of a Dark Mark would also explain why the characters are looking up and have a concerned expression on their faces. Allen From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 03:23:40 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 03:23:40 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126852 vmonte wrote: > > They're rune symbols. JKR makes a point of Harry noticing the rune > symbols around the penseive in OOTP. Carol responds: I agree that the symbols are runes, but I don't think this is Dumbledore's Pensieve. It appears to be old and cracked, unlike his, and they don't seem to be at Hogwarts, where (to my knowledge) there are no Corinthian columns (which is what this Pensieve appears to be placed on). I do like Tonks' idea that the girl who appears to be in water up to her neck is really in the Pensieve--very likely Lily, if that's the case. And for the record, I think the boy and girl on the left are Ron and Hermione and that they're looking at that feeble caricature of a Dark Mark rather than whatever DD is revealing to Harry in the Pensieve. Carol From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Thu Mar 31 04:01:55 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 04:01:55 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126853 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > Carol wrote: > And for the record, I think the boy and girl on the left are Ron and > Hermione and that they're looking at that feeble caricature of a Dark > Mark rather than whatever DD is revealing to Harry in the Pensieve. Max: I agree with Carol on both counts. Here's a link to one of GrandPre's drawings from OotP. Hermione is almost identical in both shots. http://www.hogwarts-gallery.org/picture.php?cat=265&image_id=3575&expand=169,169,169 I also think the three figures are looking up at the dark mark, not Harry and Dumbledore. I believe the dark mark scene is superimposed on top of the pensieve scene. They might be related, but imo they're separate events. Max From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 04:02:52 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 04:02:52 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marissa" wrote: > > > > > Hannah: > > > And if it is Ron, Ginny and Neville (or another character), > > > where is Hermione? > > > > > > Mugglenet says they're Hermione, Ron and Ginny. :) > > Unless they were told, Mugglenet's opinion is as good as ours. I > didn't see their basis for saying it's them, but I agree that it is > Ron, Hermione, and Ginny. Ron and Ginny have the same color hair > (don't forget that the red is muted by the greenish cast of > everything). Ron's profile looks about the same as a chapter header > Mary GrandPre did in GoF. I think they're looking up at the Dark Mark, > not Harry and Dumbledore. > > somebody said the Pensieve was "too tall." I'm sure it's setting on a > pedestal or table for the purposes of the artwork. > > Jim Ferer vmonte: I think they are all looking at the Dark Mark that is in the sky. You can see the head of the mark over the two figures on the left and the tail end over the red headed girl on the right. I think that the image below is what Harry and Dumbledore are watching in the penseive. They are looking at a memory. We still need some information about what happened at GH. If the figure on the right is Lily, why is she alone? Where is James? There is a very dreamy quality to that figure. The artist has painted her with less detail giving her a softer look. So,it may very well be a penseive memory involving Lily. The two figures on the left may be an older version of Ron and Hermione, but I wish it was the Longbottoms. I want to find out what happened to them when they were attacked by the DEs. http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbpstandee.jpg http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=/hbpstandeesmall.jpg Vivian From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 31 04:22:30 2005 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (Ravenclaw Bookworm) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 04:22:30 -0000 Subject: Why did Hermione Lie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126855 Karen wrote: The only part of it that I wondered about was Hermione's wisdom in saying that she'd deliberately gone after the troll when the boys hadn't actually been doing anything wrong. They were being taken back to their dorms after the 'Troll Alert' had been given when they suddenly remembered being told that Hermiome was crying in the loo and would not know about the Troll and felt guilty that she was there because they had upset her, so rushed to her aid instinctively. I suspect that if anyone would have got into trouble it would be Hermione 'deliberately' seeking out the troll rather than them rushing off on a whim. Moondance: This is what I was trying to say, though you were able to actually "verablize" it. :-) Why did Hermione say she was trying to take care of the troll instead of the truth. She could have softened it so as to not get the boys in trouble without the fabrication. I just find it interesting. Bookworm: Hermione could have easily said that the boys had come to help her without the story about having gone to look for it herself, but the story seems to be more in keeping with her personality. She tries to be "Little Miss Perfect" so she wouldn't want to admit that she was crying in the bathroom. Going after a troll by herself is much more decisive ? crying in the loo is wimpy. James Lawson's suggestion that it was a drill for the prefects and students also makes sense. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 31 04:40:30 2005 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (Ravenclaw Bookworm) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 04:40:30 -0000 Subject: Inheriting Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126856 Meandabbey: I don't think this has been discussed recently. If it has, perhaps you could point me to the relevant post. There has been some discussion of the possibility that Harry may inherit some or all of Sirius's assests. What if this includes Kreacher? I can see all sorts of tension. Harry would want nothing to do with him. Even discussing him would be more than he could bear. Hermione would be sure that setting him free would change K's attitude and would be the only moral and ethical thing to do. Some or all of the members of the order would insist that Harry retain ownership of K, to prevent him going to Bellatrix. I can see endless possiblities for dissension and strife. However, I am fairly sure that Kreacher is not HBP. ;o) Bookworm: There are probably as many theories as there are readers, but for what it's worth, I think Kreacher will go to Narcissa Malfoy. Dobby told Harry in CoS that house elves are destined to serve their owner's "house" ? not a specific owner. For whatever reason, Kreacher went to the Malfoys instead of to Bellatrix. Even though Bellatrix was in hiding, I would think a house elf tied to the family would be able to find her. Possibly Narcissa is the oldest. Kreacher's future is most likely different than the rest of Sirius' estate. There has been speculation on whether or not Sirius left a will (probably leaving everything to Harry), and who his next-of-kin is if there is no will. IIRC, JKR said we would find out early in HBP. Ravenclaw Bookworm From tmar78 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 05:02:55 2005 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:02:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Things better for House Elves? - How? and Why? In-Reply-To: <1112219872.34396.21245.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050331050255.18902.qmail@web14122.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126857 Lindsay: Steve beat me to it, but yes, that was something I wondered about before I also came to that conclusion. I also imagine a lot of Death Eater owners were thrown in Azkaban as well, and the rest of the family they then served were not so cruel, or at least, on their best behavior. Tyler: But according to OotP, only 10 DEs were in Azkaban and there were at least 30 present when Voldemort was rejuvenated. Surely that wouldn't have made much of a difference? But then...do we know what the House Elf population of Britain is? Hogwarts supposedly has the most of any private dwelling at 100. If the HE pop. for the whole country is a thousand or less, maybe it would have had a huge impact. Okay, I guess that mystery is solved! :) www.redmeat.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 31 05:12:14 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 05:12:14 -0000 Subject: Characters' pasts and Dumbledore's future Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126858 I've been wondering something about the last two books. Do people think we will learn anything about Dumbledore's past? We have several characters for whom the past is very important. These include: HARRY - the boy definitely has a past. How and to what extent it effects him is controversial, but with the prophecy, his parents' murder, the Dursleys, etc., I think it's clear his past is important. NEVILLE - very similar to Harry in this regard. SNAPE - possibly the most past-haunted character in the series. PERCY - many speculate his past with his family determined his behavior in the last couple of books. LUPIN - his story is entangled with Snape and Harry. HAGRID - a character who has largely overcome his past, until Grawp showed up, anyway. And yet Dumbledore, one of the most important characters of the series, has a past of which we know little. Is this to set him apart? To let him "float above" the kind of entanglements with which other characters wrestle? Or is his past simply yet to be revealed? Is the humanizing of Dumbledore in OOTP a prelude to further revelations that will bring him, in this regard, more in line with the other characters? Personally, I lean toward the latter, but what does everyone else think? Lupinlore From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 05:20:00 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 05:20:00 -0000 Subject: Lupin's role in HBP WAS: Re: HP Conventional Wisdom Watch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126859 Lupinlore: REMUS LUPIN: Falling. His stature as a candidate for the HBP seems to have declined recently. Pippin's theory of an ESE!Lupin so far has few supporters, but the prominence of Dumbledore and Harry on the covers seems to work against the previously popular idea that he would step up to be a paternal figure for Harry in the sixth book. Also his disappointing passivity in OOTP still grates on some people's nerves. Alla: I still hold hope for Remus to get closer to Harry in HBP. Marianne: I'd label this more as lurking in the weeds. I don't believe in ESE!Lupin and I do trust that, since JKR has expressed her liking of Lupin, that he will come out of his passivity in some major way. And, no, I don't think it will be as a father-mentor substitute for Harry now that Sirius is gone. Which leads to another question: If Lupin does suddenly play a more prominent, assertive role, do you think there will be readers that he's suddenly gone OOC, much the same way people seemed surprised by GirlPower!Ginny in OoP? Alla: Speaking for myself only, NO, I won't be surprised if Lupin will play more assertive role in HBP, because I won't think that it will come out of nowhere. Although I don't believe in him being ESE!, he does have an edge , he CAN be assertive when he wants to ( dealing with Dementor in PoA, dealing with Boggart during the lesson, stopping Harry from following Sirius, etc.). I think he HAS it in him, he just has to overcome his nonassertiveness. :) I was not very surprised by GirlPower Ginny either, but I know many people were. Just my opinion, Alla. From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 05:37:22 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 05:37:22 -0000 Subject: A question on Sirius and his vault - Hagrid, Molly, Harry, Goblins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > As to Hagrid, remember that Harry was with Hagrid at the time, and > Hagrid also had the key to the vault, these factors surely carried > some weight with the Goblin banker. > > More significant is the fact the Molly Weasley has accessed Harry's > bank vault several times, most of those times with Harry's implied > permission, but none that I can recall in which Harry gave his direct > expressed or written permission. Finwitch: Well, the text doesn't *say* Harry gave Molly a letter, his key or anything like that, but that may just have been cut off. (You know, like not describing Harry using a toilet, just say that he was let out of his prisonlike bedroom twice a day to do so...) Steve: --I have always speculated that one of the > reasons the Goblins are so successfull as bankers is because they have > a kind of magical sixth sense that allows them to detect the validity > of a request to accesss a bank vault. So, they could sense that both > Sirius's and Molly's request were valid authorized request to access > and remove gold from a given bank vault. > > For the record, here is what Sirius actually said- > - - - PoA, Am Ed, Pb, pg 433 - - - > Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me. I used /your > name/ but told them to take the gold from my own Gringotts vault. > - - - end quote - - - > > 'I used your name...', that could mean that the order said, send the > order to Harry Potter, but I'm paying (vault 711). The same as if you > credit-card mail-ordered a birthday present for someone and had it > sent directly to their house; ordered by one person, delivered to > another. > > Alternately, it could imply some financial association between Harry > and Sirius. It could imply that Harry's /name/ somehow has the > authority to access Sirius's bank vault; perhaps by virtue of Sirius > being his Godfather. Again, we could be faced with the Goblin's > magical /validation/ that confirmed that Harry was indeed authorized > to transfer gold from that numbered vault. > > There could be some significants in this last possiblility regarding > the disposition of the Black Estate. It might imply that long ago, > some connection had been made between Harry and Sirius. Perhaps, Harry > is already authorized to control or at least gain access to the Black > Family money, or perhaps just Sirius's personal money. > > Last note, if Sirius signed the mail-order form, then his signature > could have been sufficient verification to authorize the transfer of > money to the Quidditch supply company. But wouldn't that mean that > whoever processed the order at the Quidditch supply company would have > seen Sirius Black's signature? > > I guess it's possible that they get so many orders that they don't > really look at the names, they simply place the order, and send the > order form off to the bank to get the gold transferred. Once they have > verification of transfer, they ship the broom off to the specified > delivery address. When you process a lot of paperwork like that > sometimes you can see without really seeing. Finwitch: I agree on the Goblins magically telling if you're authorised to access a vault and I also believe that they'd let any thief to suffocate or face a dragon or whatever... They don't call wizard law to deal with them - no, Goblins do it themselves (as Hagrid put it: 'yeh'd be mad to try and rob it'). As for others: Harry's name may be a password verifying the withdrawal - or Harry might be, as Sirius godson and heir, authorised to make withdrawal - or it was a simple mailorder. As to not noticing the signature - yes, well - the dealer not looking carefully, it was for the Goblins to do so... and even if someone did think the signature seemed to say Sirius Black (some people have really messy signatures!) who would think that an escaped convict, a murderer about to slay Harry Potter, would be mail-ordering a Firebolt to Harry as a christmas present? I think that if someone did notice the signature, he either didn't believe it (someone playing a prank) - or figured that SB must be innocent if he's doing something nice like that... either way, he wouldn't have contacted any aurors.. (and lose a business oppurtunity on a very expensive Firebolt? Think not) and, the order came by a post owl so such order would not even help them out at all... But I do like to believe that Sirius made Harry some sort of co-user of his Vault upon being made his Godfather/Harry's birth. James and Lily would have known that. After all, they both trusted Sirius (James insisted on Sirius being the SK, did he not?), even after it was clear that someone close to him was a traitor. I'd find it hard to believe that someone, making my child a co-user of his bank-Vault, would be involved in a plot to lead to the child's death... (and of course, none but the Goblins, Potters and Sirius knew of that arrangement... Harry doesn't know, but Sirius DID tell Harry his Vault-number!) Finwitch From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 06:33:22 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 06:33:22 -0000 Subject: A question on Sirius and his vault - Hagrid, Molly, Harry, Goblins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > > More significant is the fact the Molly Weasley has accessed Harry's > > bank vault several times, most of those times (only) with Harry's implied > > permission, but none that I can recall in which Harry gave his direct > > expressed or written permission. > Finwitch: > > Well, the text doesn't *say* Harry gave Molly a letter, his key or > anything like that, but that may just have been cut off. (You know, > like not describing Harry using a toilet, just say that he was let > out of his prisonlike bedroom twice a day to do so...) > > ...edited... > > Finwitch bboyminn: Here is the problem I have with this idea that Harry gave Molly the his vault key or some other official authorization off-page. In some cases, Molly does say before the fact, that Harry should give her his School Supplies List and she will pick things up for him. If there was going to be a direct and literal authorization by Harry that would have been the time for it. In other cases, Molly doesn't even tell Harry what she has done until after that fact, sort of, 'oh, by the way Harry, while you were gone, I picked up your school books, and a bag full of gold'. In these matter-of-fact, after-the-fact cases, Harry is not extremely shocked or surprised, he also doesn't seem to acknowledge that he knew Molly was off doing this for him. He certainly doesn't object, but neither is there any indication that he knew what Molly was going to do. So, while I can't discount it, I personally find the idea that Harry gave Molly official authorization off-page a little weak. Again, I'm not implying that it's wrong, only that my read of the text more strongly implies Molly acting on her own, than Harry giving expressed permission. So, from my perspective Molly has not expressed but implied permission to act on Harry behalf, and that somehow the Goblins know that this is a genuine valid request for funds on the behalf of the Vaults true owner. As far as books and supplies, I could see Molly simply saying, 'Send a bill to Gringotts and have the funds withdrawn from Harry Potter's account'. That's not that far outside normal business practice. But how is Molly able to get hard cold cash from Harry's account? The only way I can explain that and remain consistent with the way I read the books, is to offer the explanation above and in my previous post. Trying to work out how the wizard world works off-page is one of the things I enjoy most. Steve/bboyminn From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Mar 31 06:40:12 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 06:40:12 -0000 Subject: Characters' pasts and Dumbledore's future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126862 Lupinlore: > And yet Dumbledore, one of the most important characters of the > series, has a past of which we know little. Is this to set him > apart? To let him "float above" the kind of entanglements with which > other characters wrestle? > > Or is his past simply yet to be revealed? Is the humanizing of > Dumbledore in OOTP a prelude to further revelations that will bring > him, in this regard, more in line with the other characters? > > Personally, I lean toward the latter, but what does everyone else > think? Jen: On one hand JKR has used DD for a very specific purpose so far: He is the actor behind the scenes who brought Harry to this juncture, and his purpose may therefore be ending. OTOH, there could be a future for his role that only his back story can explain. For instance if Dumbledore is the HBP, we might hear how he came to be the 'champion' of muggle-borns and the disenfranchised groups of the WW population. He's such a different character from the others in how he views the WW, mainly because he views it within the context of the larger world. How Dumbledore became that person, given the confines of the WW, could be important information for Harry's next struggle and so we would hear the story. There is some weight to the idea that Dumbledore will be important in Book 6, given the alchemical references in the series. If OOTP was the first stage or nigredo stage in the series, symbolized by the dissolution (death) of Black, then the next step in the alchemical process is the albedo stage or the stage of purification, represented by Albus Dumbledore.* My extrapolation is that Harry must pass through the stage of relying on Dumbledore's explanations and plans in Book 6. This could mean a literal death of DD, or a figurative one for Harry. We've already seen those moments when Dumbledore is 'dying' to Harry in the sense of viewing him as omnipotent. Like this moment in POA: "Harry stared up into the grave face and felt as though the ground beneath him were falling sharply away. He had grown used to the idea that Dumbledore could solve anything. He had expected Dumbledore to pull some amazing solution out of the air. But no...their last hope was gone." (POA, US, Hermione's Secret). The turn of events in Book 6 could come from Harry realizing DD's interpretation of the prophecy is misleading or outright wrong. It could be that Harry merely makes a choice to rely less and less on DD for the 'answers' as he has in the past. Possibly DD will actually die. I would sorely love to hear Dumbledore's back story, but waver on whether this is in the cards. Just as with more information on the Marauder generation, it may just not be important to the larger story. Jen *Reference for this info is an article by John Granger http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg34.html From hambtty at triad.rr.com Thu Mar 31 03:04:54 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 03:04:54 -0000 Subject: Ancient Runes and the scar Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126863 Interesting idea about Herminone discovering that Harry's scar looks like an ancient symbol. From the website "The Meanings of Runes" I found this about Ancient Rune "yew" and it looks very much like a lightning bolt. DIVINATORY MEANINGS: change, initiation, confrontation of fears, turning point, death, transformation This rune is the turning point in the runic journey, and represents the transformation phase of the initiatory process. All rites of passage, particularly those marking the transition into adulthood, contain the symbolism of death, the idea being that one's former 'self' has died and given birth to a new persona. ....... The process is a truly frightening one, but it is something we all must go through if we are to confront our deepest fears and emerge with the kind of wisdom that cannot be taught but must be experienced. Eihwaz is the gateway to this wisdom, and lies between life (jera) and rebirth (per?). "B.G." From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Thu Mar 31 04:45:16 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 04:45:16 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126864 > vmonte: > > I think they are all looking at the Dark Mark that is in the sky. You > can see the head of the mark over the two figures on the left and the > tail end over the red headed girl on the right. John: Ron looks as if he's wearing a dressing-gown. Maybe he's been port- keyed back to The Burrow in the middle of the night, after another of Harry's visions, only to find the dark mark hovering above his house? Yikes! Molly and Arthur and all the rest I just can't bear the thought of it! vmonte: I think that the > image below is what Harry and Dumbledore are watching in the > penseive. They are looking at a memory. We still need some > information about what happened at GH. If the figure on the right is > Lily, why is she alone? Where is James? There is a very dreamy > quality to that figure. The artist has painted her with less detail > giving her a softer look. So,it may very well be a penseive memory > involving Lily. > John: It looks as if Lily's looking up at someone?Voldy? If I'm not mistaken, this is her begging him for mercy ("Take me! Not Harry,I'll do anything, etc."). This, after all, is perhaps the most crucial moment in the series and, in response to vmonte, by that stage James was already dead (I think). It does seem as if that night, and finding out exactly what transpired on it, could be the central theme of this book. JKR has as good as told us that the first chapter is indeed an account of GH, hasn't she? John. From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 04:55:45 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 04:55:45 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin - EUREKA ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126865 > Molley here: > Is it possible to infer from this that DD is immortal? Well, > not exactly immortal, but can die and resurrect himself? Is > this the reason Voldemort is afraid of him? I've always > felt there was *something* more concrete to the fear of LV > than the mere "powerful wizard" argument. Any thoughts? *snickers* Maybe he's Merlin in disguise. Maybe he's Flamel as well. Maybe he's also Godric, let's guess. If that's possible and he's so powerful, why not? Chys From havelockxf at hotmail.com Thu Mar 31 05:51:07 2005 From: havelockxf at hotmail.com (Kathie) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 05:51:07 -0000 Subject: Is Seamus Finnigan the HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126866 He has a muggle father and a witch mother...? Just a thought. ;) nunley From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 04:49:03 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 04:49:03 -0000 Subject: LV in the MOM Atrium; Harry's Possession? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126867 > Geoff: > > Harry tells Bellatrix that she should save her breath - Voldemort > cannot hear her, whereupon said gentleman suddenly appears in the > middle of the hall. He complains that the Death Eaters have > allowed Harry to thwart him again and attempts to cast the Avadra > Kedavra spell which is blocked by the wizard statue. > > Dumbledore appears in front of the golden gates and he and > Voldemort exchange spells. Dumbledore has his "Tom" conversation > and there is a further battle between them. Harry is quite able > to see what is going on even though the statue is keeping him > back. > > Then, when it seems that Voldemort is trying to flee and Harry > attempts to come out from behind the statue, that is when the > possession occurs.... > > (OOTP "The Only One He Ever Feared" condensed from pp. 716-719 UK > edition) > > As far as I read it, this is a real event. Voldemort is not > a "projection"; he has come, forced into the action because > events have gone against his planning. So I don't follow your > reasoning... Sorry, I haven't read it in a while so I honestly forgot the first part or didn't understand it the first time around. (That was why I initially hated the HP books, I couldn't understand the story because some of how it was written made it sound unclear to me.) I had meant during the possession, was he there, or had he gone by then?- and he was actually possessed, correct? That part, in writing, sounded quite vague of details to me. It really sounded to me like Harry was first being defended by the statue then was being held back by it, and either the lack of knowledge on what's going on, or his inability to contribute, may have given me the impression he was helpless there. It also just seemed wrong that it would contradict everything that had happened previously in the book- LV trying to get Harry to get the prophecy for him, and then suddenly showing up there anyway. I've only read book 5 once before, and it was rushed on loan from a friend, and am still in the process of finding another one for keeps, so forgive me if i have forgotten the play-by-play. Chys From captivity at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 00:12:02 2005 From: captivity at gmail.com (-p) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:12:02 -0500 Subject: Hermione a werewolf? In-Reply-To: <1112219872.34396.21245.m26@yahoogroups.com> References: <1112219872.34396.21245.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126868 Ok- more nitpicking on my part - but I just saw the PoA movie and I'm wondering again what I must have forgotten before - about Hermione being a werewolf. I mean - preposterous and absurd and I'm sure that JKR has spoken about it.... but I can't find anything in any interviews about it. There are discussions where people say that she couldn't be based on transformation - that Harry and Ron would've known - but hey, they didn't even grasp it after their werewolf essay - and Ron was the only one who thought something was funny about her just appearing in classes... Hrmm.. Hermione: possible werewolf spawn or nerdy dentist daughter? Discuss. -p From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 11:59:16 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:59:16 -0000 Subject: The Half-Blood McGuffin - EUREKA ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126869 > Molley here: > Is it possible to infer from this that DD is immortal? Well, > not exactly immortal, but can die and resurrect himself? Is > this the reason Voldemort is afraid of him? I've always > felt there was *something* more concrete to the fear of LV > than the mere "powerful wizard" argument. Any thoughts? Chys responded: *snickers* Maybe he's Merlin in disguise. Maybe he's Flamel as well. Maybe he's also Godric... vmonte now: Ronald Weasley... Vivian From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu Mar 31 13:47:28 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:47:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Snape's unfairness was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Raistlin Majere Message-ID: <20050331134728.6390.qmail@web86210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126870 Betsy wrote; > He's not there to be the children's best > friend, or to help them unleash their creativity, or worried about > scarring their poor fragile minds . He's > there to teach potions. And if he has to pound the knowledge into > their thick, clumsy skulls (hello, Neville) than that's what he'll > do. I admire that. (Not that I wouldn't have been scared crapless > of Snape if he was my teacher - but I think I'd have appreciated his > methods a few years down the road. As I do with my very Snape-like > fourth grade teacher, secretly referred to as Mrs. Hitler by her > students.) Snape's old-world, old-school, way of teaching is like a > breath of fresh air for me. I also, don't think Snape is nearly as > unfair as Harry and friends like to think he is. Lots of good points you made about Snape, and I agree with them. To keep this from being strictly "me too" post, let's go over several examples of Snape's perceived unfairness (or lack thereof ;-)). JKR is very skillful about making the readers share Harry's point of view. Lots of people believe that Snape gave him a passing grade only because Dumbledore intervened, when we only have Harry's completely wild guess as a basis. Lots of people share Harry's belief that Snape wanted to poison him, when it's much more likely that Snape wanted him to study antidotes very hard. Snape used Trevor as a lesson prop! Shock, horror, what an evil man. How many people have noticed, that Flitwick used Trevor as a prop while teaching levitation? Snape let Draco to the class in the middle of the lesson, without taking points. Harry is furious, because when he was late, he didn't get away with it. But what he forgets is that he was late discussing quidditch with Oliver, and Draco comes straight from the hospital wing (where he was faking it, but that's not the point). Actually, Oliver reminded me of something: when Snape is going to referee that game in PS, Oliver tells his team "we should not give him any excuse" or something along these lines. Notice that Oliver, an experienced Gryffindor :-), does not think that even if they play the cleanest game possible Snape will find a way to penalise them. Harry does, though, and that's exactly his problem. We discussed possible strategies Harry could adopt in his dealings with Snape a while ago. Changing his attitude to "Don't give him any excuse" might be a winning one. > May the final two > books include many, many scenes with Snape. Let's drink to that. :-) Irene Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From nrenka at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 13:55:10 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:55:10 -0000 Subject: Lucius, Dobby and side #3 (but more Lucius Malfoy's Ambition) In-Reply-To: <20050330063640.E0BA823CFE@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thursday morning" wrote: > Nora thinks we are overestimating Lucius' skills citing a lack of > subtlety and suggesting he is "shockingly, a genuinely devoted > ideologue." If Lucius is not as intelligent as he'd like to appear > then I'd say she's exactly right. All aspects of my theories about > both Lucius and Dobby are dependant on his being intelligent as > well as goal oriented. If Nora is correct then Lucius is probably > out of the game at this point. We can probably take it as given > that Dobby was working on his own as well. However, relative > intelligence levels aside, I don't see how Nora's theory > accommodates Lucius' pride - the one characteristic of Lucius' I've > never seen anyone argue didn't exist. I see your argument about Lucius' pride and raise you one graveyard scene. Lucius' pride is not strong enough that he refuses orders from Voldemort to do things, and the graveyard scene strikes me as very deliberately played on Voldemort's part to make people nervous in ways that strike at their weaknesses and tendencies. Lucius is pretty obviously following orders in OotP, enough that he is on the team at the DoM and takes the fall for his boss; his social standing in society is now shot, which has got to impact his pride severely. (We know per interview that Fudge is out--and Lucius Malfoy is very publicly associated with Fudge, and the linkages between them of money and such are probably now exposed. I don't see how, with Dumbledore's faction in the clear ascendency post-OotP, Lucius is going to be able to get off. Get OUT of Azkaban and go back to the DEs, yes, but his public reputation has been destroyed in ways that are genuinely irrecoverable. That's part of Draco's rage at the end of the book--Daddy is in jail and *everyone* knows it.) Where has it ever been suggested that he has been too proud to follow his leader? -Nora runs off to class for more fun with old books From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Thu Mar 31 14:23:51 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:23:51 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Seven Charms in HPSS Message-ID: <1ef.38f034dc.2f7d61f7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126872 Miss Nitpicky here, but the devil's snare didn't cure those who were petrified in book two, that was the mandrakes. So task 2 the devil's snare really didn't have anything to do for the plot of book 2. Danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 14:28:09 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:28:09 -0000 Subject: Hermione a werewolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126873 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, -p wrote: > > Ok- more nitpicking on my part - but I just saw the PoA movie > and I'm wondering again what I must have forgotten before - > about Hermione being a werewolf. I mean - preposterous and > absurd and I'm sure that JKR has spoken about it.... but I > can't find anything in any interviews about it. > > There are discussions where people say that she couldn't be > based on transformation - that Harry and Ron would've known - > but hey, they didn't even grasp it after their werewolf essay > - and Ron was the only one who thought something was funny > about her just appearing in classes... Hrmm.. > > Hermione: possible werewolf spawn or nerdy dentist daughter? > Discuss. > > -p Finwitch: No, she's not. She did not transform during a full moon (either of her, that is) while Lupin DID transform. AND she never misses a class... so no - Hermione just cannot be a werewolf... unless Lupin bit her during their stay in 12 Privet Drive... Finwitch From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Mar 31 14:28:53 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:28:53 -0000 Subject: Ancient Runes and the scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126874 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: "B.G.": > Interesting idea about Herminone discovering that Harry's scar looks > like an ancient symbol. From the website "The Meanings of Runes" I > found this about Ancient Rune "yew" and it looks very much like a > lightning bolt. Geoff: Inevitably, this has been discussed before. The earliest reference I have in my own personal archive is message 81869, a passing comment in the thread "Dumbledore's Bridge" and there is a longer thread from mesage 89668, thread title "The Scar". These have been others but, not being into runes personally, I haven't got message numbers. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 14:32:57 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:32:57 -0000 Subject: Ancient Runes and the scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126875 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: > > Interesting idea about Herminone discovering that Harry's scar looks > like an ancient symbol. From the website "The Meanings of Runes" I > found this about Ancient Rune "yew" and it looks very much like a > lightning bolt. GEO: Yes, but sowulo not eihwaz I believe is the actual thunderbolt rune. As for Harry's scar supposedly in the shape of a rune, didn't Rowling herself say that the shape of the scar really didn't matter? From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Mar 31 14:39:41 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:39:41 -0000 Subject: Wider thoughts on Hermione 's lying In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126876 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "moondance241" wrote: Moondance: > Reading SS/PS again, I was again struck by the question of why Hermione > decided to lie about the troll in the bathroom. Prior to this > incident, Ron had hurt her feelings so much, she was hiding out in the > bathroom crying. She'd been at odds with Harry and Ron about losing > points for Griffyndor. Basically, there was not a sign there would be > a friendship there. Knowing 11 year olds (I have one), I would think > she'd be more likely to tell on the boys (even with the risk of losing > more points) then to lie for for them. I haven't figured out her > motivation. Geoff: I'd like to take a slightly wider perspective on this question of the troll incident, arising out of one contributor's comment that Harry and Ron felt guilty. What led up to this whole business? After the broomstick incident, which revealed Harry's skill, Malfoy confronted Harry and because Harry wasn't afraid of him, challenged him to a wizard's duel. While Ron and Harry are discussing this . `"Excuse me." They both looked up. It was Hermione Granger. "Can't a person eat in peace in this place?" said Ron. Hermione ignored him and spoke to Harry. "I couldn't help overhearing what you and Malfoy were saying ?" "Bet you could," Ron muttered. "- and you mustn't go wandering around the school at night, think of the points you'll lose Gryffindor if you're caught and you're bound to be. It's really very selfish of you." "And it's really none of your business," said Harry. "Goodbye," said Ron".' (PS "The Midnight Duel" p.115 UK edition) OK, so Harry's in the wrong but she is poking her nose into the matter and they don't really know each other well yet. Comes the evening. `They had almost reached the portrait hole when a voice spoke from the chair nearest them: "I can't believe you're going to do this, Harry." A lamp flickered on. It was Hermione Granger, wearing a pink dressing gown and a frown. "You!" said Ron furiously. "Go back to bed!" "I almost told your brother," Hermione snapped. "Percy ? he's a Prefect, he'd put a stop to this." Harry couldn't believe that anyone could be so interfering.' (ibid. p.115) I'm inclined to agree with Harry on this one. They leave the portrait hole, with Hermione following and continuing to hector them until `"Go away." "All right but I warned you, you just remember what I said when you're on the train home tomorrow, you're so ?" But what they were, they didn't find out. Hermione had turned to the portrait of the Fat Lady to get back inside and found herself facing an empty painting. The Fat Lady had gone on a night-time visit and Hermione was locked out of Gryffindor Tower. "Now what am I going to do?" she asked shrilly. "That's your problem," said Ron, "We've got to go, we're going to be late." They hadn't even reached the end of the corridor when Hermione caught up with them. "I'm coming with you," she said. "You are not." "D'you think I'm going to stand out here and wait for Filch to catch me? If he finds all three of us, I'll tell him the truth, that I was trying to stop you and you can back me up." "You've got some nerve ?" said Ron loudly.' (ibid. p.116) Hermione obviously hasn't read "How to win friends and influence people". She barges in on the boys ? maybe with right on her side ? and then threatens to shop them and expects them to meekly agree with her ..there follows their attempts to get away from Filch and their entry into the forbidden corridor and the meeting with Fluffy. They return safely but shocked to the Common Room. `It was a while before any of them said anything. Neville, indeed, looked as if he'd never speak again. "What do they think they're doing, keeping a thing like that locked up in a school?" said Ron finally. "If any dog needs exercise, that one does." Hermione had got both her breath and her bad temper back again. "You don't use your eyes, any of you, do you?" she snapped. "Didn't you see what it was standing on?" "The floor?" Harry suggested. "I wasn't looking at its feet, I was too busy with its heads." "No, not the floor. It was standing on a trapdoor. It's obviously guarding something." She stood up, glaring at them. "I hope you're pleased with yourselves. We could all have been killed ?or worse, expelled. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to bed." Ron stared after her, his mouth open. "No, we don't mind," he said. "You'd think we dragged her along, wouldn't you?"' (ibid. p.120) As I said, earlier, Harry is wrong; He and Ron are breaking school rules but they should have no guilty feelings towards Hermione. She chose to interfere, to threaten to drop them in it if the situation demanded that and came along, against the wishes of the boys. >From my experience of teaching, I often found that, if you had a disagreement with a boy, the matter had usually blown over by the following lesson and things were back to normal. If you crossed swords with a girl pupil, she would often sulk for days. This has happened with Hermione. `Hermione was now refusing to speak to Harry and Ron but she was such a bossy know-it-all that they saw this as an added bonus.' (PS "Hallowe'en" p.121 UK edition) This continued for weeks after the incident up to the incident which triggered Hermione's withdrawals to the girls' loos. The Charms lesson on Hallowe'en `Ron, however, was to be working with Hermione Granger. It was hard to tell whether Ron or Hermione was angrier about this.' (ibid. p.126) After Hermione's demonstration of feather flying . `Ron was in a very bad temper by the end of the class. "It's no wonder no one can stand her," he said to Harry as they pushed their way into the crowded corridor. "She's a nightmare, honestly." Someone knocked into Harry as they hurried past him. It was Hermione. Harry caught a glimpse of her face ? and was startled to see that she was in tears. "I think she heard you." "So?" said Ron but he looked a bit uncomfortable. "She must've noticed she's got no friends."' (Ibid. p.127) An old English adage says that eavesdroppers hear no good of themselves. Ron is perhaps uncomfortable because she is crying but feels that she has brought it on herself. When the troll crisis starts, they are not going to stop because they consider Hermione to be a pain - that fact probably doesn't cross their mind in the emergency. They suddenly realise that another person is in trouble if they are not warned so they decide to ride over the hill to the rescue. It has been said that Hermione could have told the truth ? she was in the toilets and the boys set out to warn her. I am sure that this would have been perfectly acceptable to Professor McGonagall, so why not tell? I believe that she didn't want to have to enlarge on /why/ she was in there; it might have proved embarrassing and humiliating for her. From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 14:55:23 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:55:23 -0000 Subject: A question on Sirius and his vault - Hagrid, Molly, Harry, Goblins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126877 "Steve": n: > > Here is the problem I have with this idea that Harry gave Molly the > his vault key or some other official authorization off-page. In some > cases, Molly does say before the fact, that Harry should give her his > School Supplies List and she will pick things up for him. If there was > going to be a direct and literal authorization by Harry that would > have been the time for it. Finwitch: That was in Goblet of Fire, and it's the first time someone else is doing Harry's shopping for him. The giving of the list and permission is cut off (well, I'd say that putting Molly say that and Harry do it in the next sentence would be clumsy). As for Molly doing the same thing apparently on her own in the Order of the Phoenix, I'd say that the permission Harry gave Molly upon leaving to the Quidditch World Cup was still in force. Maybe Molly had the key (or whatever) when she was arguing with Sirius, saying that Harry was 'as good as' her son. Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 15:15:09 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:15:09 -0000 Subject: Characters' pasts and Dumbledore's future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126878 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > I would sorely love to hear Dumbledore's back story, but waver on > whether this is in the cards. Just as with more information on the > Marauder generation, it may just not be important to the larger > story. Finwitch: So would I - I'd love to hear about Albus and Aberforth's time together as children; What ar we to make of Albus' hair being auburn at the age of 100 and completely white 50 years later? Yes, I do know that age tends to turn some people's hair white - but some are *born* so. Maybe Albus (his name means WHITE) was BORN an Albino (blue eyes for humans, white hair, and no pigment whatsoever..) and just dyed his hair with magic? Or someone else had, as a prank... (Tom Riddle? Minerva? Someone else?) Aberforth, his brother (the bar-tender), has greying - hair (aging, I think). They could be twins, and either one could be older. Don't let the hair-colour lure you... Not that it matters, of course -- but I'd like to hear of Albus' early life. And Aberforth's for that matter. How did they ever end up in a situation where Albus doesn't know whether or not his brother can read?? And what's with the thick, woollen socks? Maybe Aberforth used to give him those socks for Christmas (if he can't read, how would he go about giving BOOKS?) but due to some arguement (possibly about Sirius, and how Albus did nothing to get him a trial, which Aberforth insisted on principle), stopped sending him anything. And Albus, in PS, would like nothing more than being at peace with his brother again... (Sirius may have stopped at Hog's Head while escaping, right?) Finwitch From inkling108 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 16:23:57 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:23:57 -0000 Subject: Full HBP cover artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126879 > vmonte: > > I think they are all looking at the Dark Mark that is in the sky. You > can see the head of the mark over the two figures on the left and the > tail end over the red headed girl on the right. I think that the > image below is what Harry and Dumbledore are watching in the > penseive. They are looking at a memory. We still need some > information about what happened at GH. If the figure on the right is > Lily, why is she alone? Where is James? There is a very dreamy > quality to that figure. The artist has painted her with less detail > giving her a softer look. So,it may very well be a penseive memory > involving Lily. I also think they are looking at the dark mark, and with the skyline in the background my guess is that there is a scene in OotP in which the dark mark appears in the London sky (or perhaps some other muggle city -- the skyline looks too urban to be Hogsmeade). Didn't JKR say that with the war beginning in earnest, muggles would begin to notice some strange things going on? Inkling From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Mar 31 16:29:30 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:29:30 -0000 Subject: Snape's unfairness was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: <20050331134728.6390.qmail@web86210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126880 > Actually, Oliver reminded me of something: when Snape > is going to referee that game in PS, Oliver tells his > team "we should not give him any excuse" or something > along these lines. Notice that Oliver, an experienced > Gryffindor :-), does not think that even if they play > the cleanest game possible Snape will find a way to > penalise them. Harry does, though, and that's exactly > his problem. > We discussed possible strategies Harry could adopt in > his dealings with Snape a while ago. Changing his > attitude to "Don't give him any excuse" might be a > winning one. > > > > May the final two > > books include many, many scenes with Snape. > > Let's drink to that. :-) > > Irene > > Let me give another example, however, that cuts against this interpretation. In OOTP, Snape deliberately sabotages Harry's potion so that he will be able to give Harry another zero. That does not strike me as the behavior of someone who needs an excuse. Rather it is the behavior of someone who manufactures an excuse where none exists. To get this back to the Raistlin/Snape comparison, Snape has always struck me as cruel and stupid in his teaching methods and his dealings with his students. Raistlin, on the other hand, while cruel, was never stupid. Lupinlore From sopraniste at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 16:37:08 2005 From: sopraniste at yahoo.com (sopraniste) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:37:08 -0000 Subject: Why did Hermione Lie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126881 I always wondered why she didn't just tell the truth too, but a friend of mine pointed out that assuming the school operated on a legalist system of rules (which, of course, it doesn't, but if it DID) it wouldn't matter that the boys had a good REASON to go off when they had been TOLD to return to their House with everybody else, they still disobeyed and would still be punished. Now, from a strictly mathematical point of view, it was MUCH better for Hermione to be punished and both Harry and Ron rewarded for their accomplishment. However, I'm still not convinced that even Hermione was analyzing the situation THAT much! I'm not altogether convinced that McGonagall didn't KNOW Hermione was lying, and that was the REAL reason she lost points. Just a thought.... Flop. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 17:28:04 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:28:04 -0000 Subject: Why did Hermione Lie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126882 > Bookworm: > Hermione could have easily said that the boys had come to help her > without the story about having gone to look for it herself, but the > story seems to be more in keeping with her personality. She tries > to be "Little Miss Perfect" so she wouldn't want to admit > that she was crying in the bathroom. Going after a troll by herself > is much more decisive ? crying in the loo is wimpy. > Antosha: So she should have told the truth? "Well, Professor, I've been in here crying since this afternoon because Ron and Harry--well, really, to be precise, Ron--said some horrid, hurtful things about me after I tried to help him in Charms. But they came and helped me when the troll came in, so now I've decided to forgive them." I can't see that getting anyone but Hermione off the hook for being where they weren't supposed to be--the students were told to stay with the prefects and go back to their dormitories, and I can't see McGonagall being terribly sympathetic to a couple of eleven- year-olds who made a classmate weep through dinner. I don't see it painting Hermione herself in the best light, and we all must admit that she has a certain amount of pride. And I certainly don't see it leading to Hermione become Ron and Harry's best friend. Which was, after all, the main dramatic purpose of the scene. From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 31 17:47:38 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:47:38 -0000 Subject: Are all the DE's from Slytherin? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126883 Many people think all of LV's followers were from Slytherin because in the first book Hagrid tells Harry that "not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't from Slytherin" (p. 80 US ed.). But in the second book the narrator says that Slytherin was "the house that has turned out more dark witches and wizards that any other" (p. 77). I guess people remember the first statement only because it was in the movie, but I prefer to think that Hagrid is simply mistaken and the narrator is to be trusted more. This leads to two questions: (1) Even if all of LV's followers are from different houses, are the Death Eaters (i.e., LV's inner circle) all from Slytherin? (2) Will students from different houses or only from Slytherin side with LV if the upcoming war extends to Hogwarts? Richard Jones From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 17:57:34 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:57:34 -0000 Subject: Snape unfairness/ Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126884 Betsy: So I've been away for a while on horrible, icky, ugly, RL business, but this question was too intriguing for me to pass up. Especially since so few (if any?) Snape fans replied. Alla: Welcome back and I think I must be addicted to Snape bashing/defending sessions. No matter how many I did, I can rarely pass by another one. :) Betsy: And Snape made the rather heroic decision to turn his back on the winning side and join with the losers, so he's got the redemption thing going on too. Alla: That is what saves Snape for me on the empathy level. Betsy: Snape's old-world, old-school, way of teaching is like a breath of fresh air for me. I also, don't think Snape is nearly as unfair as Harry and friends like to think he is. Alla: And THAT I will never be able to see, I am afraid, EVER. McGonagall is an old school disciplinarian, true and I love her for that. Snape on the other hand - I am trying to come up with the new name for him. I think I will call him "unfair disciplinarian" today... Betsy: However, the times he disciplines Harry, Harry has usually done something to deserve Snape's wrath. Alla: Sure he did. On their very first lesson Harry looked like James and that is why he needed to be singled out and humiliated in front of the class. :) Yes, quite often Harry is indeed guilty of SOMETHING when Snape catches him, but Snape usually misinterprets Harry's intentions SO badly that it makes any punishment he gives look oh so very misplaced and unfair to me. Betsy: (I think Harry will be very surprised with how well he does on his Potions' OWL, because I think Snape has made a habit of demanding far more from his students than the OWL's do.) And I *like* that part of Snape. Alla: Harry was not very surprised though. He knew that he had done better that he usually does precisely because Snape was not breathing down his neck. Irene: We discussed possible strategies Harry could adopt in his dealings with Snape a while ago. Changing his attitude to "Don't give him any excuse" might be a winning one. Alla: Yes, we did discuss it. I used to think that I don't want to see that, but I think I changed my mind. I DO want to see Harry try that strategy. I am still quite adamant that it will not work, but I want to see it in the text. Harry trying to do whatever Snape requests in course of the lessons and Snape coming up with new excuses every time to sabotage Harry's efforts. It DOES make for entertaining read though, no questions about it. Lupinlore: Let me give another example, however, that cuts against this interpretation. In OOTP, Snape deliberately sabotages Harry's potion so that he will be able to give Harry another zero. That does not strike me as the behavior of someone who needs an excuse. Rather it is the behavior of someone who manufactures an excuse where none exists. Alla: Yes, I agree. Lupinlore: To get this back to the Raistlin/Snape comparison, Snape has always struck me as cruel and stupid in his teaching methods and his dealings with his students. Raistlin, on the other hand, while cruel, was never stupid. Alla: I am in the middle of "Dragonlance Chronicles" now and so far I adore Raislin. He is very human and despite his sharp tongue and ambition, he does not bully weak and he does seem to love his brother. I don't know how I will react when Raislin will truly turn to evil . but so far between Snape and Raistlin, Raistlin definitely wins. I don't know whether I agree that Snape is stupid though. I think it was Northsouth who summed it perfectly for me "Raistlin had a plan. Snape has a grudge." Just my opinion of course, Alla From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Mar 31 18:20:17 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:20:17 -0000 Subject: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "xcpublishing" wrote: > OMG, I guess it had to happen, but I actually disagree with you, > phoenix!!! I just got back from vacation and yours is the first message I am going to reply to because of the momentousness of the event :) I do agree there are similarities between the two, but I > despised Raistlin with every fiber of my being and desperately wanted > someone to squish him. (And his annoying brother, but that's another > story.) I never saw Raistlin as either whiny or petty. And I agree that Caramon *could* be annoying. But what HP really needs is a character like Tasselhoff... Dobby almost qualifies but not quite. On the other hand, I actually do like Snape, even though I'm > hoping he's ESE. I never saw Raistlin having any redeeming > qualities. Snape's redeeming qualities pretty much only lie in the > fact that (ESE!) Dumbledore seems to like him and I'm still in the > mood to give DD the benefit of the doubt. Then you are a kinder person than I and have far more faith in DD's judgement. How many times has he been hoodwinked again? About three times a book it seems like. I'm with Ron, Snape is always going to be on my crap list. For those that haven't > read Dragonlance, your question can also be included with Thomas > Covenant from the Lord Foul's Bane series by Stephen Donaldson. I could never get into that series. I didn't like the authors writing style. But I was also a lot younger when I picked the book so maybe I'll try it again. Once I read the nine dozen books that are already on my list. Raistlin was > a griping, cantankerous, angry whiner. Snape has never whined. Not once. I admire that. No, he only makes fun of little girls and the bullied. He's a sweetheart. There is nothing to admire about Severus Snape > Nicky Joe It's still good to hear from you, even though we disagree :) I was wondering what you would like about my post since I know we've read a lot of the same books. Jon From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Mar 31 18:37:10 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:37:10 -0000 Subject: Are all the DE's from Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard Jones" wrote: > > This leads to two questions: > > (1) Even if all of LV's followers are from different houses, are the > Death Eaters (i.e., LV's inner circle) all from Slytherin? > > (2) Will students from different houses or only from Slytherin side > with LV if the upcoming war extends to Hogwarts? > > Richard Jones Hickengruendler 1.) Nope. There is at least one Death Eater, who is a Gryffindor, and that's Peter Pettigrew. JKR was once asked, if all the Marauders were from Gryffindor, and she answered yes. Unluckily, the person who asked the question (during a chat) made a mistake and mentioned Lupin twice while forgetting Womrtail, therefore I can you can say that it is not really canon that Peter's a Gryffindor, too. But I think it's 99,999% likely. It wouldn't make much sense if the other three Marauders would befriend a Slytherin just like that. Sirius especially is not that tolerant to accept him like this. 2.) I think most of the students will side with Harry, except a few Slytherins and one or two "surprise candidates" from other houses. On her website, (where she was asked about Snape's heritage) JKR hinted that there might be a muggleborn Death Eater. I don't think this one would be from Slytherin, and I also don't think it's Wormtail, since they speak about her mother as if she were a witch. Hickengruendler From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 31 18:50:19 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:50:19 -0000 Subject: Things better for House Elves? - How? and Why? In-Reply-To: <20050331050255.18902.qmail@web14122.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126887 > Lindsay: > > Steve beat me to it, but yes, that was something I > wondered about before I also came to that conclusion. > I also imagine a lot of Death > Eater owners were thrown in Azkaban as well, and the > rest of the family they then served were not so cruel, > or at least, on their best > behavior. > > Tyler: > But according to OotP, only 10 DEs were in Azkaban > and there were at least 30 present when Voldemort was > rejuvenated. Surely that wouldn't have made much of a > difference? But then...do we know what the House Elf > population of Britain is? Hogwarts supposedly has the > most of any private dwelling at 100. If the HE pop. > for the whole country is a thousand or less, maybe it > would have had a huge impact. > Hannah: I would add that only ten Death Eaters *escaped* Azkaban. It's likely that there are others in there, perhaps less senior members who weren't important enough to get busted out in the first lot. Also I would imagaine that a number died in the prison/ served shorter sentences for more minor crimes if they were clever enough to avoid being outed as actual DEs. When was the House-Elf relocation department or whatever it is set up? Perhaps that was a development that occurred after VW1 and improved the lot of house elves generally. Maybe that contributed to the improvements for elves, along with the removal of some of the more vicious elf owners. Hannah From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Mar 31 18:52:33 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:52:33 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126888 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stickbook41" wrote: > stickbook now: > With that in mind, I'd like to put it to Lupinlore and Alla and anyone > else who might want to jump in: What (if anything) could Dumbledore > have done or said in this scene to convince you that he was telling > the truth? I had to jump in on this one because I'm wrestling with this very thing in one of my fics. I personally would connect it to the Mirror of Erised. Something like this: "You asked me once, Harry, what I see when I look into the mirror of Erised. I told you the first of many lies then Harry. I do not see socks." The old wizards voice dropped into a whisper and Harry had to strain to hear him. "I see *you*. I see a harry potter who grew up happy and loved. sometimes you are with your parents. Other times you are with relatives who love and care for you. Still others you are with a wizarding family who showed you all the wonders of your birthright." Tears glimmered in blue eyes that did not twinkle. "There are many variations on the same theme, but always, always, you are happy with only the cares of ordinary boys. Yet with all of my magic, I could not make that happen for you." Something like that, only with more than one minute of thought invested in it. phoenixgod2000 From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 31 19:05:45 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:05:45 -0000 Subject: Ancient Runes and the scar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: > > > > Interesting idea about Herminone discovering that Harry's scar looks > > like an ancient symbol. From the website "The Meanings of Runes" I > > found this about Ancient Rune "yew" and it looks very much like a > > lightning bolt. > > GEO: Yes, but sowulo not eihwaz I believe is the actual thunderbolt > rune. As for Harry's scar supposedly in the shape of a rune, didn't > Rowling herself say that the shape of the scar really didn't matter? Hannah: Yes, she has, can't remember which interview, but in one of them she said something like 'the shape isn't the most important thing about the scar.' That interested me because it implies something else about the scar is important. But what? The size? Seems unlikely. The colour? Also unlikely. The properties? Maybe she means its 'alarm bell' behaviour. The placement? This is what I think she's referring to. The scar is on Harry's forehead. Why? AK's seem to work effectively whatever body part they hit. But Harry's is slap bang in the middle of his forehead (in the medium that must not be named it even seems to move about ;-) !) I think that's a hint that it wasn't an AK that LV used, but a 'transfer of power spell,' as has been discussed before. That may well have needed to be aimed at Harry's head rather than anywhere else. Thus the important thing about the scar is that it is the remnant of a power transfer curse gone wrong, and the placement gives that away. My crazy new theory (about the placement, not the curse used - I can't claim credit for that!) Hannah From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Mar 31 19:06:57 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:06:57 -0000 Subject: Snape's unfairness was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126890 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > Let me give another example, however, that cuts against this > interpretation. In OOTP, Snape deliberately sabotages Harry's potion > so that he will be able to give Harry another zero. That does not > strike me as the behavior of someone who needs an excuse. Rather it > is the behavior of someone who manufactures an excuse where none > exists. Pippin: I'm sure Snape regarded Harry's snooping in his pensieve as his excuse. Never mind that Snape also threw Harry to the floor, yelled at him, tossed a jar after him and cut off the occlumency lessons (not that Harry would regard the latter as a punishment) --if Harry doesn't know by now that Snape punishes according to his sense of injury rather than the crime, he ought to. Lupinlore: > To get this back to the Raistlin/Snape comparison, Snape has always > struck me as cruel and stupid in his teaching methods and his > dealings with his students. Raistlin, on the other hand, while > cruel, was never stupid. Pippin: The only time I've seen Snape be stupid is when he refuses to listen in the Shrieking Shack, and since that is probably related to the other two stupid things he did, following Lupin in the prank and joining the Death Eaters, I'm inclined to wait until I've heard the whole story. But I still think Snape is more like Lucy Van Pelt in Peanuts. He's a crab and a fussbudget, and you could definitely say that Lucy is a sadistic little girl who abuses her power. But there's no indication that Lucy wants *more* power, and Snape doesn't seem to either. Like Snape, Lucy's personality is completely at odds with her type: little girls are supposed to be *nice* and a lot of people think that teachers should be nice too. OTOH, Charlie Brown could save himself a lot of grief if he just stopped running at the football, and Harry, methinks, could spare himself a lot of grief if he did the same. He doesn't have to buy into Snape's opinion of him any more than he has to buy into Vernon's, or Charlie Brown has to keep paying nickels to Lucy to have her tell him he's a blockhead. It also never seems to occur to Harry that with the Room of Requirement at his disposal and Hermione to coach him, he could have learned OWL potion making, or even Occlumency, without Snape. Pippin From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 19:11:03 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:11:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things better for House Elves? (was Re: Lucius Malfoy's In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050331191103.2764.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126891 > Tyler: > Has anyone else wondered just how LV's fall improved > the daily lives of British House Elves? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Harry is the enemy of Lord Voldemort and the DE's. So Harry is the house elf poster boy. Dobby says that house elves were treated like dirt (not exact quote) and then admits that he personally is still treated that way, which implies that his personal situation is not the norm in the WW. Regardless of whether conditions have improved quantitatively, Dobby certainly believes they have, and that's enough to have motivated him. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 19:20:26 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:20:26 -0000 Subject: In Defense of DD (was Re: DD's dilemma) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126892 stickbook: "Isn't it wonderful how we can all get such different impressions of the same event? Steve read Dumbledore as having a zen-like calm, Lupinlore a cold indifference, and as for me, I read it as plain old guilt. Dumbledore felt guilty for not being able to see a way around his perceived mistakes (ten years with the Dursleys, etc), hence the single tear and the allowance of Harry to smash up his office. "Also, I got the impression that Dumbledore had been waiting for and dreading this explosion from Harry for a long time. He tells Harry that he'd been dreading having to explain the whole bit about the prophecy, but what he was really dreading was the big question that Harry would eventually put to him: "If you're so wise and powerful, why haven't you made my life any easier?" More guilt; there's no satisfactory answer." Guilt, remorse, sadness, fatigue. I think Dumbledore's show of compassion was completely appropriate; the proof, to my mind, was that it was effective. Harry left Dumbledore's office in a much better state of mind and understanding a lot more. DD explained himself, grieved for his mistakes, let Harry vent. Showy displays of "compassion" are more about comforting the comforter than the person comforted. stickbook: "... who feels a bit naive taking the scene at such face value." Don't feel naive. Feel wise that you aren't outsmarting yourself. The "nothing is what it looks like" mind-set is where conspiracy theories are born. Most of them sink without a ripple. Jim Ferer From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 19:28:33 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:28:33 -0000 Subject: Things better for House Elves? - People Against Themselves. In-Reply-To: <20050331050255.18902.qmail@web14122.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney wrote: > Lindsay: > > Steve beat me to it, but yes, ... > I also imagine a lot of Death Eater owners were thrown in Azkaban as > well, and the rest of the family they then served were not so cruel, > or at least, on their best behavior. > Tyler: > But according to OotP, only 10 DEs were in Azkaban and there were > at least 30 present when Voldemort was rejuvenated. Surely that > wouldn't have made much of a difference? ... If the HE pop. > for the whole country is a thousand or less, maybe it would have > had a huge impact. > > Okay, I guess that mystery is solved! :) bboyminn: Let's not forget the mob-mentality that comes into play. As Voldemort and the Death Eaters grew more lawless, the general population, especially those who were somewhat sympathetic to Voldemort alledged Pureblood philosophy, would have also become more lawless. Although subconscious, people would have felt that either the DE's or the anonymity of the crowd would have protected them from repercussions. More so, I think it is a case of people acting on there subconsious urges which are re-enforced and validated by the actions of others, that leads people to do cruel things that they wouldn't otherwise dare to do. Given this, I think the cruel sense of superiority would have spread beyond the top level Death Eaters. You need only look at the action of normal citizens in Hitler's Germany, Pol-Pot's Cambodia or parts of todays Middle East to see it doesn't take much to turn a population against itself. Just a thought. steve/bboyminn From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 19:30:53 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:30:53 -0000 Subject: Fantasia on Destiny and Why Hermione Lied In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126894 Bookworm: Hermione could have easily said that the boys had come to help her without the story about having gone to look for it herself, but the story seems to be more in keeping with her personality. She tries to be "Little Miss Perfect" so she wouldn't want to admit that she was crying in the bathroom. Going after a troll by herself is much more decisive ? crying in the loo is wimpy." Antosha:"I can't see that getting anyone but Hermione off the hook for being where they weren't supposed to be--the students were told to stay with the prefects and go back to their dormitories, and I can't see McGonagall being terribly sympathetic to a couple of eleven- year-olds who made a classmate weep through dinner. I don't see it painting Hermione herself in the best light, and we all must admit that she has a certain amount of pride. And I certainly don't see it leading to Hermione become Ron and Harry's best friend. Which was, after all, the main dramatic purpose of the scene." I'm with Antosha; Hermione probably wouldn't want to admit crying in the loo. Too Myrtle by half. So here's the fantasy on this scene: We've often wondered why Hermione wasn't sorted into Ravenclaw. We know now, after the things she's done, that she was destined for Gryffindor, but what if we carry it even further? What if she was destined for the Trio, that unique blend of personalities and skills? Who knows what the Sorting Hat knows, and why it does what it does. The Hat puts people *where they ought to be,* but where they ought to be for who? What purpose? Maybe a larger purpose. Absolutely, completely, unequivocally unsupported, but fun just the same. Jim Ferer From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Thu Mar 31 08:30:27 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:30:27 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half-Baked Postulation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126895 I'm fairly certain this has been discussed before (what *hasn't*?), but in the light of all this recent cover-art euphoria, I'm gonna take another shot at it Has anyone wondered what other symptoms of Harry and Voldy's ever- deepening kinship might develop in HBP? What about the manifestation of some more of these "powers" Voldy charitably proffered Harry some 16 years before? In OOTP, Harry began to gain access to Voldy's thoughts, and there was a distinctive legilimency-ness to the phenomenon, even though it was merely that unique scar-connection showing its wares. Still, there's a rather useful analogy there, IMO. Now, Snape tells us that a sufficiently skilled Legilimens (Hope I'm spelling that right) can gain access not just to another's thoughts, but to their memories as well *so*, will Harry in HBP (inadvertently) work his way further and further into Voldy's mind, thereby obtaining access, perhaps, to Voldy/Tom Riddle's deepest, darkest memories? The "evidence" supporting such an outrageous supposition: 1. Chapter One, it seems, will give us some sort of account of GH [see JKR's site?"extra stuff"]. Could JKR use a style here similar to that in Chapter One of GoF? Something along the lines of; Voldy's recollection of GH slips into Harry's dreams; or otherwise is planted there as part of an elaborate ruse to again lure him into the Dark Lord's waiting arms (with the culmination to arrive ten months later, of course); we see everything; Harry wakes up, scar throbbing with pain such as he had never experienced before. 2. The book cover showing Harry & DD looking into the pensieve (and looking rather worried, I have to say) could be this very memory: their relationship being much more open now, Harry promptly tells DD about what he has dreamt, DD extracts the memory and transfers to the pensieve for his own consumption, thus is able to reach some new and startling conclusions about the "connection" that, as Harry says, he's never been able to explain satisfactorily. 3. JKR has said we will find out quite a lot more about Voldy's past in this book?what turned him rotten, how he obtained near- immortality and survived GH, etc. Giving Harry access to Voldy/Tom's memories would be a rather convenient way of doing this, I think. After all, she must surely be running out of novel reasons for Harry to fall into the pensieve so that he/we can find out important back- story. Anyone want to add to it? Or else, strike it down? John, hoping we get some of these BIG questions answered on July 16 (OOTP was *so* disappointing in that regard!). From dreamy at tigrou2.com Thu Mar 31 13:01:32 2005 From: dreamy at tigrou2.com (Dream Howler) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:01:32 -0500 Subject: Squibs Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050331070546.026cb808@filter.hcsmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126896 Hello everyone, I have to slightly disagree with some of the statements made about Squibs so far. JKR has put an article on her website stating that: A Squib is almost the opposite of a Muggle-born wizard: he or she is a non-magical person born to at least one magical parent. Squibs are rare; magic is a dominant and resilient gene. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=19 If we follow this theory, ANY child born to at least one magical parent with no magic is a Squib no matter WHO they live with. I think someone mentioned that they might be called a Muggle if they lived with a Muggle. Technically, they ARE a Muggle, but they still carry the magic gene, it just wouldn't be active and would be called a Squib. Since as she stated Magic is a dominant gene and resilient gene, if the Squib married a magical person, it stands to reason that the child would be magical. Not that they would produce another Squib. So far in the series we have been introduced to two Squibs. Filch and Mrs. Figg. I think by using JKR's own words that if Filch or Mrs. Figg had gotten married... then their children would have probably had a magical child IF they had married a witch/wizard. Any child of a Squib would depend on who their grandparents were to determine wether they would be a half blood or not. Pure Blood is determined by having 4 magical grandparents. If a Squib was from a pureblood family and so was the witch/wizard marrying the Squib, I would think they would be a pureblood. If a child of a squib had Muggle grandparents or at least one Muggle grandparent then the child would be a half-blood. These are of course my theories based on JKR's own provided information. They are open to criticism. ========================================================== Also, some interesting thoughts: This Kwikspell course that he was doing was basically Filch refusing to accept the fact that he had no magic and was going to try any means necessary to get magic even if it was risky. I surmise that Filch was probably a pureblood Squib, though it has yet to be proven. I am theorizing from the fact that he seems to be hoping more than anything that the course will work. Though, this also brings up an interesting question... would Filch sell out Dumbledore if Voldemort promised him magic? Don't think it would happen, but Filch seems to be very unhappy with the way certain things are run. Do you think it is possible if he was given the opportunity. Dreamy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My Links: Dream Howler's Story Site http://www.dhowler.com Dream Howler's Harry Potter Archive: http://hp.dhowler.com Dream Howler's Harry Potter Forum: http://hp.dhowler.com/forum/ Dream Howler's Writing Journal: http://www.greatestjournal.com/~dreamhowler/ Dream Howler's Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dreamhowler_writings/join ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author of: Looking for Love in All the Right Places (Boy-Bands) http://lfl.dhowler.com/ Bane of My Existence - (Harry Potter) http://bane.dhowler.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irishwynch at aol.com Thu Mar 31 17:29:53 2005 From: irishwynch at aol.com (irishwynch at aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:29:53 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full HBP cover artwork Message-ID: <100.106d23f2.2f7d8d91@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126897 Vmonte writes: Maybe it's Neville's father and mother on the left and Lilly on the right. Marla now: I think that it is Ron and Hermoine on the left. I can see the red in the hair from the highlights. Then on the right, I'm leaning towards Lily because the female looks older, more mature. I haven't noticed anyone mention the Death Mark on the left side between the pensive and the two kids. It reminded me of the one displayed over the campgrounds at the World Cup. Perhaps that means something important. Marla [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Mar 31 20:31:00 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:31:00 -0000 Subject: hair color (was Re: Full HBP cover artwork) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126898 Lindsay snip She's too cute to be Bulstrode. Pansy, Luna and > Hannah are blondes. Potioncat: Sorry for such a LOONY question, but could you provide the book and chapter for Pansy's hair color? It's bugged me for a while that I couldn't find that detail. (and last time I looked, it wasn't in Lexicon.) > From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 20:37:13 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:37:13 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups]Would Filch help Voldy for magic?? ( Was: Re:Squibs) Message-ID: <1a1.30b757fc.2f7db979@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126899 In a message dated 3/31/2005 12:12:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, dreamy at tigrou2.com writes: Though, this also brings up an interesting question... would Filch sell out Dumbledore if Voldemort promised him magic? Don't think it would happen, but Filch seems to be very unhappy with the way certain things are run. Do you think it is possible if he was given the opportunity. Dreamy **************************************************** Chancie: I DEFIANTLY think Filch would sell Dumbledore out to get what he wants. Look at how he treated the Umbridge situation! Umbridge gave him the power he wanted, and he did everything she wanted him to. I think he might be a little more nervous dealing with Voldy, but so far, Filch's track record doesn't exactly show much for loyalty! The question is, would Voldy want Filch's help since he is a Squib? If Filch promised Voldy info on the castle, like ways to sneak in, I think it's possible... Any thoughts? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 20:48:02 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:48:02 -0000 Subject: Things better for House Elves? - People Against Themselves. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126900 > bboyminn: > > Let's not forget the mob-mentality that comes into play. As Voldemort > and the Death Eaters grew more lawless, the general population, > especially those who were somewhat sympathetic to Voldemort alledged > Pureblood philosophy, would have also become more lawless. Although > subconscious, people would have felt that either the DE's or the > anonymity of the crowd would have protected them from repercussions. > > More so, I think it is a case of people acting on there subconsious > urges which are re-enforced and validated by the actions of others, > that leads people to do cruel things that they wouldn't otherwise dare > to do. > > Given this, I think the cruel sense of superiority would have spread > beyond the top level Death Eaters. You need only look at the action of > normal citizens in Hitler's Germany, Pol-Pot's Cambodia or parts of > todays Middle East to see it doesn't take much to turn a population > against itself. > > Just a thought. > > steve/bboyminn a_svirn: Normal citizens in Germany embraced National Socialism with all their hearts. That's why Hitler came into power in the first place. And quite legitimately too. Whereas normal British wizards not only dislike the DE movement and personally LV profoundly, but also are quite frankly terrified of them. Not really that much of a similarity. a_svirn From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 31 20:48:54 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:48:54 -0000 Subject: HBP full cover design In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126901 > > vmonte: > > > > I think they are all looking at the Dark Mark that is in the sky. > You > > can see the head of the mark over the two figures on the left and > the > > tail end over the red headed girl on the right. I think that the > > image below is what Harry and Dumbledore are watching in the > > penseive. They are looking at a memory. We still need some > > information about what happened at GH. If the figure on the right > is > > Lily, why is she alone? Where is James? There is a very dreamy > > quality to that figure. The artist has painted her with less > detail > > giving her a softer look. So,it may very well be a penseive memory > > involving Lily. > > I also think they are looking at the dark mark, and with the skyline > in the background my guess is that there is a scene in OotP in which > the dark mark appears in the London sky (or perhaps some other > muggle city -- the skyline looks too urban to be Hogsmeade). Didn't > JKR say that with the war beginning in earnest, muggles would begin > to notice some strange things going on? > > Inkling Hannah: Hang on, I just had a thought. Are the three figures, the skyline and the Dark Mark actually part of a separate illustration altoghether? Perhaps this is the back cover illustration, and it's been superimposed onto the front cover image for the purpose of the promotion. I don't really know how the book covers work for the US versions, but the UK ones have one picture on the front, and an unrelated one on the back. So if the same applies to US editions, and the new parts of the image are actually from the back cover, then the two images aren't necessarily related. So the 'three watchers' almost certainly aren't watching, or being watched. Have I just embarrassed myself and stated the obvious? Or have I had a good idea? I need input from people with US versions and those who know more about art and cover designing than I do (virtually everyone, I'd imagine!) Hannah From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu Mar 31 21:31:16 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:31:16 +0100 Subject: Snape's unfairness was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Raistlin Majere In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <424C6C24.7070003@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 126902 lupinlore wrote: > irene wrote: >>We discussed possible strategies Harry could adopt in >>his dealings with Snape a while ago. Changing his >>attitude to "Don't give him any excuse" might be a >>winning one. > > > Let me give another example, however, that cuts against this > interpretation. In OOTP, Snape deliberately sabotages Harry's potion > so that he will be able to give Harry another zero. That does not > strike me as the behavior of someone who needs an excuse. Rather it > is the behavior of someone who manufactures an excuse where none > exists. Does he sabotage the potion really? You see, Harry was with his back to the desk, so it's his guess again. That we, the readers, buy into this guess so easily, is another demonstration of JKR's skills. I read this scene as either the potion rolled off the table, or Draco helped it on the way down, and Snape, of course, did nothing to save it. I still recommend that Harry tries his best at each potion, and not to take his eyes off it until he gets the full marks. Irene From nrenka at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 22:04:06 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:04:06 -0000 Subject: Self-taught Occlumency? I think not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126903 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > It also never seems to occur to Harry that with the Room of > Requirement at his disposal and Hermione to coach him, he could have > learned OWL potion making, or even Occlumency, without Snape. Potion making less curious, but Occlumency a very curious comment, Pippin. Do you have any canon that supports the idea that it would be learnable for Harry without an experienced teacher? After all, Hermione never mentions books on Occlumency in the library that could be used to help Harry--which, given her general inclinations for looking things up and reliability in finding them, can in this situation be taken as an indication that there weren't any. I have a model for Occlumency that is by no means perfect, but makes some good analogies--it was posted in fits and starts in the past, but I have it all together now so I should post it in toto. Part of what I would contend from it is that Occlumency is presented as a set of skills that involve the refinement of oneself. It is not manifested in a single charm or action, unlike the Patronus or resisting the Imperius curse. It involves getting down with your entire self, and is developed through the learning of mental skills (clear your mind, let go of emotion, learn how to resist). As such, it seems to really require a *partner* who knows Legilimency to learn, as it needs that person as both the guider and tester. Harry and Hermione and a non-existent book would be rather like two kids a and "Teach Yourself Karate" video. Hint: they're not going to get very far. -Nora goes and digs out the Grand Unified Occlumency Theory From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Mar 31 22:59:24 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:59:24 -0000 Subject: Self-taught Occlumency? I think not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126904 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: > > > > > It also never seems to occur to Harry that with the Room of > > Requirement at his disposal and Hermione to coach him, he could have > > learned OWL potion making, or even Occlumency, without Snape. > > Potion making less curious, but Occlumency a very curious comment, > Pippin. Do you have any canon that supports the idea that it would be > learnable for Harry without an experienced teacher? After all, > Hermione never mentions books on Occlumency in the library that could > be used to help Harry--which, given her general inclinations for > looking things up and reliability in finding them, can in this > situation be taken as an indication that there weren't any. Pippin: Great though Snape's knowledge be, as Gandalf would say, it must have a source, which isn't necessarily in the library, even if Hermione has access to the restricted section. What about Snape's office, or Dumbledore's? (People will keep giving him books.) Can the ROR draw from outside Hogwarts? Perhaps from under the drawing room floor in Malfoy Manor? Point is, Harry didn't try, didn't ask. It's canon that there is writing on Imperius resistance, which Snape says requires similar technique. Harry hasn't read those either, AFAWK, though Snape probably thinks he has. It was an assignment in fourth year DADA. (I don't have my books with me for the reference.) Nora: > > As such, it seems to really require a *partner* who knows Legilimency > to learn, as it needs that person as both the guider and tester. > Harry and Hermione and a non-existent book would be rather like two > kids a and "Teach Yourself Karate" video. Hint: they're not going to > get very far. Pippin: As far as the 'tester' goes, Harry had Voldemort. And while ordinary kids probably couldn't learn karate that way, motivated, talented people can learn a surprising amount by unorthodox means. I forget the name of the Japanese figure skating champion who is supposed to have learned by watching TV. Of course Harry might have only slight abilities as an occlumens, but in that case he was never going to be good enough to resist Voldy anyway. I'd be surprised if JKR thinks there is only one right way to learn anything-- do you see canon for that? Pippin interested to hear Nora's theory on the proper teaching of Occlumency. And wondering if Nora thinks that Snape was taught that way, and if not, why Snape would want to experiment with an untried method when so much was at stake From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 23:39:45 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:39:45 -0000 Subject: HBP full cover design In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126905 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" wrote: > I don't really know how the book covers work for the US versions, > but the UK ones have one picture on the front, and an unrelated one > on the back. So if the same applies to US editions, and the new > parts of the image are actually from the back cover, then the two > images aren't necessarily related. So the 'three watchers' almost > certainly aren't watching, or being watched. Tonks here: It seems to me that the US book covers often have important images from the key scene of the book. And the front pictures blends into the back so that when you open the cover out it all goes together. For example: PA shows Harry and Ginny on Buckbeak with an image/shadow of Sirius under them which blends into the image on the back of a Dementor and a black dog, a strange tree and some sort of animal, and a crescent moon. It is all very symbolic of what is in the book, but we do not know that until we have read it all. OP shows Harry (left handed, which I LOVE.) on the cover in the MoM. We do not know it is the MoM until we read the whole book. But there he is in the MoM in the room with candles and doors. This image continues to the back image where, still in the MoM, Madeye Moody, Tonks, and someone else are there. The veil is there with Sirius in what looks like a doorway next to it. There is another door with a shadow of someone reflected on the floor. These are all scenes from the battle of the MoM. We would never have been able to figure any of it out before we read the book. I don't have the other books handy. But this is how GrandPre does her work. Again, I LOVE left handed Harry!! Of course all really good wizards are left handed. ;-) Tonks_op From nrenka at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 23:56:47 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:56:47 -0000 Subject: Self-taught Occlumency? I think not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126906 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > > Great though Snape's knowledge be, as Gandalf would say, it must > have a source, which isn't necessarily in the library, even if > Hermione has access to the restricted section. What about Snape's > office, or Dumbledore's? (People will keep giving him books.) Can > the ROR draw from outside Hogwarts? Perhaps from under the drawing > room floor in Malfoy Manor? I was suggesting that Snape's knowledge was perhaps acquired not primarily from books, but from experience with a teacher. There are all sorts of things that can be described in books, but are best taught with the minimum of a teacher in conjunction with books. Piano, any martial art, and meditation are ones that immediately come to mind. > Point is, Harry didn't try, didn't ask. It's canon that there is > writing on Imperius resistance, which Snape says requires similar > technique. Can you point me to the 'writing' part of this canon? I see Crouch! Moody saying that Imperius can be resisted, and this can be taught. > Harry hasn't read those either, AFAWK, though Snape probably thinks > he has. It was an assignment in fourth year DADA. (I don't have my > books with me for the reference.) There is generic mention of 'books' on the subject--but this is on the Unforgiveable Curses in general. No further mention is made of how to resist it; the only information we are given about it is when Harry actually *does* so, in GF 15--the little dialogue with Harry and his Inner Voice. Now, isn't it interesting that Crouch!Moody insists that the students actually BE the targets of the curse to learn how to resist it? That suggests a training model where you need to start out on a smaller scale and work your way up. Not to mention one where these largely non-existent books you cite aren't going to help like real experience. > Pippin: > As far as the 'tester' goes, Harry had Voldemort. Not a good tester--see above, with Crouch!Moody's comment "If you'd rather learn the hard way--when someone's putting it on you so they can control you completely...". Good testers start low and let you know what they're doing, and then escalate the force to keep your skills on the edge. That's not even to mention that it can be surmised from the end of the book conversation that Harry and Voldemort's link is something at least slightly different from the normal one caused by Legilimency. > Of course Harry might have only slight abilities as an occlumens, > but in that case he was never going to be good enough to resist > Voldy anyway. There's a very profound difference in "slight abilities" from the beginning and "never going to be good enough". I've seen people who could never have taught themselves martial arts become fairly exceptional in the hands of a good teacher. Ultimate skill in an area and the ability to teach it to oneself do not exist in a one-to- one ratio. Not all world-class concert pianists are self-taught; in fact, I think relatively few are. > I'd be surprised if JKR thinks there is only one right way to learn > anything-- do you see canon for that? No--but I have a model which makes very good sense to me for why Harry had such difficulties with Occlumency. It's admittedly modeled paralleling an RL activity, and it has holes--but every account of Occlumency does. > Pippin > interested to hear Nora's theory on the proper teaching of > Occlumency. And wondering if Nora thinks that Snape was taught > that way, and if not, why Snape would want to experiment with an > untried method when so much was at stake Snape's education in Occlumency and skills at it are my admitted hole. However, we have some hints in canon as to Dumbledore' ultimate disappointment in Snape's actions as teacher. Is it really so hard to imagine Snape letting his personal interests and feelings get the better of him--unless you want to cling to the MD reading of Snape in the Shack, it makes thematic sense for the character. -Nora dredges up the file From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 23:58:11 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:58:11 -0000 Subject: Self-taught Occlumency? I think not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126907 Occlumency and Legilmency I think that these 2 subjects are related to what Muggles call hypnosis. There is a form of hypnosis that is only taught to those with the proper credentials and it is done, not with books but person to person. Yes, there are some books and people could learn about it from the books, but they could not learn this specific type. The type I am thinking of and that I think DD and SS can do is that which is taught in such a way as to guard the knowledge so that unauthorized persons can not gain proficiency in this method. So what I am saying is that IMO, Harry could not learn Occlumency well enough to fight LV without a teacher. Tonks_op Who is putting together a training manual for students to lean Occlumency. From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Thu Mar 31 08:07:09 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:07:09 -0000 Subject: Things better for House Elves? (was Re: Lucius Malfoy's In-Reply-To: <20050330201159.70206.qmail@web14126.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126911 > "deborahhbbrd": > Consider what their lives would have been like if the > bad guys had won. Nasty, poor, brutish and very, very > short. > > Tyler again: > Nasty, poor, and brutish, yes. Short? I'm not so > sure. I think even the DEs would have enough sense to > realize you don't want to kill your servant (at least > not until you get a replacement) or else you'll be > stuck doing the cooking, cleaning, etc. I see nothing > in canon to suggest that HEs were being killed for sport > the way muggles were. Deborah again: Not killed for sport, no, but ... worked to death? Why not? The Nazis did that to the Jews, gypsies, gays, etc with never a thought for the morrow ... or else they assumed that once the war was over and they were safely victorious, there would be no need for a slave- labour force any more so it wouldn't matter that they'd used 'em all up. And I don't see Narcissa and Bellatrix as domestic goddesses using their brooms for sweeping - they could use magic as Molly W does in the absence of HEs, though it does seem to be physically draining, like housework. Or, like ancient Romans and the Old South, the HEs could have been used as a breeding population to generate new slaves ... wouldn't be dehumanising as they weren't human. QED. I suppose it all hangs on how you rate DE intelligence and foresight. (As usual, they haven't read the books in which the bad guys get arrogant and lose, so they don't think it could happen to them. Unlike the wonderful Flora Poste in Cold Comfort Farm, whose power over her relations came from her ability to recognise the soap-opera plot they were living in, and turn it to her advantage.) From missvassy at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 21:31:06 2005 From: missvassy at yahoo.com (missvassy) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:31:06 -0000 Subject: Squibs / Filch In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050331070546.026cb808@filter.hcsmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126912 Dreamy wrote: > This Kwikspell course that he was doing was basically Filch > refusing to accept the fact that he had no magic and was going > to try any means necessary to get magic even if it was risky. > I surmise that Filch was probably a pureblood Squib, though it > has yet to be proven. I am theorizing from the fact that he > seems to be hoping more than anything that the course will work. Perhaps Filch is the person that JKR refers to coming to their powers late in life. Maybe in the next book he will show some magical power or perhaps he is given it by Voldemort. "missvassy" From shalimar07 at aol.com Thu Mar 31 16:11:26 2005 From: shalimar07 at aol.com (mumweasley7) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:11:26 -0000 Subject: Hermione a werewolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 126926 -p wrote: > I'm wondering again what I must have forgotten before - > about Hermione being a werewolf. > > There are discussions where people say that she couldn't be > based on transformation - that Harry and Ron would've known - > but hey, they didn't even grasp it after their werewolf essay > - and Ron was the only one who thought something was funny > about her just appearing in classes... Hrmm.. > > Hermione: possible werewolf spawn or nerdy dentist daughter? After watching the movie I had to grab the book. When she howls to distract the werewolf I thought of the line "They only respond to their own kind". After a short read I found that Rowling did not write that distraction in her story...just an add in for the movie. Shalimar