Opposite of Gryffindor? - Nature of Sorting

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 125535


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich
<mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> --- Steve <bboyminn at y...> wrote:
>  
> > But as Phineas Nigellus pointed out, Slytherins have plenty of
> > courage, but in the thick of things, Slytherins will courageously
> > save themselve and their own, rather than jump in and selflessly 
> > save others. 


> Magda:
> 
> Well, to be fair, that's not exactly what Phineas says: 
> 
> Chapter 23 - OOTP
> 
> "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid.  For instance, given
> the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks."
> 
> Phineas doesn't say anything about not saving others. ...(moved up 
> from next paragraph)He's not talking about leaving others behind or 
> not putting yourself out for others in dangerous situations. 

bboyminn:

I reformated your paragraphs slightly. I'm confused how you can
interpret "...we will always ... save our own necks..." as anything
other than saving yourself rather than others. He, in the context of
the book and that scene, is saying that he understands Harry running
away and saving himself, which implies leaving other behind. To say
you are 'saving your own neck' generally implies, selfishly saving
yourself rather than selflessly saving others at the risk of yourself.
The rare exception is those occassion when, in order to save /your own
neck/, you must save the neck of others.

My main point is that bravery and courage can manifest themselves in
many ways, not all of those manifestations are considered /heroic/. I
also made the point with regard to the house that you are sorted to,
using Gryffindor and courage as an illustration, that the inner
presence of a /house quality/ doesn't guarantee it manifestation in
the outer world. Hufflepuffs can accomplish very little, Slytherins
are not guaranteed finacial success, Ravenclaws are not always able to
effectively apply their intellect, and Gryffindors are not always able
to summon their courage. 

So, the point is that the Sorting Hat can see qualities deep within
you, that, for whatever reason, you are never able to fully
demonstrate. Peter is a good example. It is assumed that he is a
Gryffindor, and the fact that he is a weak will, approval seeking,
fearful coward doesn't mean the Sorting Hat got it wrong; it means
that Peter never used the assets he had in a positive and productive way. 

Taking that to it's most basic premise regarding the Sorting Hat, the
Sorting Hat makes it's decision based on things it sees deep inside a
person, and essential inner quality, and not based on superficial
desires as others seemingly suggested. 

Expanding that, in an attempt to explain seemingly inconsistent
characters, just because the Sorting Hat see that quality within you
is no guarantee that it will be realized in your outer life; you can
have Gryffindor courage, and not necessarily be a courageous Gryffindor. 



> Magda continues:
>
> As a Slytherin he's opposed to recklessness, to not planning for 
> unforeseen circumstances and he's in favour of getting your 
> priorities right.  Sometimes charging into a situation with nothing 
> but selfless heroism to get you through it isn't the best plan - 
> something we see when Harry insists on going to the MOM.
> 
> Magda (who doesn't doubt at all that Gilderoy Lockhart was a Gryffindor)

bboyminn:

I think there are other aspect of Phineas's conversation with Harry,
as well as general principle, that can support your statement in this
last paragraph, but I don't think that can be derived from the quote
you've given us at the top of your post (quote from Phineas).

Slytherins are more likely to proceed with a plan and an objective
rather than recklessly diving in, that's just good business practice.
But I don't think that is at the heart of this conversation, and it
strays from the fact that I was simply illustrating that courage can
manifest itself in a variety of ways, not all positive. Further, my
purpose in making the illustration, was to support my basic premise
about the nature of the Sorting Hat, and to explain seemingly
inconsistent characters.

Just trying to clarify.

Steve/bboyminn