Hermione's a liberal

[greatelderone]

No: HPFGUIDX 125597


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn" <kcawte at n...> wrote:
> Riight - and I've never known the what it's like to skydive but 
I'd sure as
> heck protest if someone threw me out of a plane. 

GEO: Totally false analogy here that does not work. If the elves 
were given the choice of freedom, they could also put themselves 
under the servitude of wizards again. If you were shoved out of a 
plane, there is no way of getting back up there.

> As I said earlier we have
> seen three individual house elves. Two of them have exercised a 
certain
> amount of choice - Kreacher and Dobby, both are reasonably content 
with
> their choices and the consequences. 

GEO: And in comparison, Kreacher under the servitude of the Blacks 
was turned into an insane house elf and later betrayed Sirius and 
Dobby under the Malfoys was just plain miserable and went behind 
their backs in order to save Harry. Looks like 2/3 of the examples 
didn't do well under servitude.

> But she is trying to forcethe house elves to conform to what she
> feels they should be rather than allowing them to do what they 
want.
> Hermione is imposing her views on others and completely 
disregarding their
> wishes

GEO: Not what she feels, but what most of the world feels. Slavery 
is illegal and is only practiced in the worst places of the world 
which unfortunately does include a few places under American 
governace.

 
> Could you explain you point here again because I'm reading this as 
you
> saying that imposing values of 'civilization' and religion on 
people who
> were doing *perfectly* well beforehand was right because the poor 
little
> natives just didn't know any better, and I'm sure that can't be 
what you
> meant. 

GEO: Imposing freedom on those who have lived under oppression and 
slavery is right. Your analogy in my opinion is wrong since the 
natives were doing fine before the Europeans came however that is 
not the case for House Elves or the Middle East.

> but no one has the right to force their will or
> opinion upon another person. If the House Elves *do not* wish to 
be free
> then by insisting that they *must* be then you are not giving them 
any kind
> of 'right' you are simply saying that instead of blindly obeying 
their
> masters they should blindly obey you. 

GEO: How so? Giving them their freedom, teaching them the use of it 
and letting them go is hardly the equivalent to them trading one 
master for another since they have the choice of going back or 
disagreeing and going their own way.

>I have *never* said Hermione's
> aims are necessarily wrong, just her methods. By saying that she 
has the
> right to choose for them then Hermione is saying she is better 
than them. 

GEO: I disagree. Given the Wizarding World and how it resembles our 
world, any methody is preferable to having them languish in their 
slavery because I for one don't think the MoM and the Purebloods 
would ever free the elves.

? By definition if the House
> Elves wish to continue as they are (and most of them seem to, and 
don't give
> me that argument about not knowing any better, they interact 
with 'free'
> wizards every day, they can see what the alternative is perfectly 
well) then
> it isn't slavery.

GEO: I very much doubt the first House Elves were born to serve 
humans. Their enslavement it seems was imposed by the wizards. 
Freeing them is only the natural thing. They may like it, but then 
plenty of people forced into servitude and slavery have also 
expressedt these same opinions.