Voldemort and free will (was: Re: Did JKR cheat with the prophecy?)

[albusthewhite]

No: HPFGUIDX 125902



Two different points, both related to discussions stemming from a
single post.


> > vmonte responds:
> > 
> > The Tom Riddle preserved in the diary was only a teenager.  This 
> > diary was made by Tom while he was at Hogwarts. And it did not 
> > contain any future memories of the prophecy.  
> > 
> > Vivian
> Doddie here: [snip]
> 
> You absolutely cannot use this arguement since  "Diary Tom" would 
> not have known about Harry Potter defeating him YEARS LATER, yet 
> speaks about it in COS scene!!!! 


now albusthewhite:
Actually, you absolutely *can* use this argument, because as Riddle himself says, "Well, 
you see, Ginny told me all about you, Harry....  Your whole *fascinating* history" (CoS 
USHB 311).  TR doesn't have any memory beyond his (fifth?) year at Hogwarts; the info on 
more current events is provided unwittingly by Ginny in conversing (IMing?) with her diary.


elsewhere, lupinlore says:
"If the prophecy is true and therefore unavoidable, Voldy really
DIDN'T have a choice in striking, as it was already foreordained. His
only choice was in striking Harry rather than Neville. And even there
he was sharply restricted, as the prophecy foreordains it will be one
of those two out of all the wizard children born that year.

"So you see, ultimately you can't have a true prophecy and freedom of
choice at the same time. If the prophecy is true, it means the
prophet has seen what will happen in the future. That in turn means
the future is fixed and freedom of choice is an illusion, since
choices have already been determined before they are made -- indeed
before the people involved even realize their IS an (apparent) choice.

"Now, you can try to put a subtle spin on it by saying that true
prophecies don't DETERMINE choice, they only PREDICT choice with 100%
precision. But once again, when you analyze that carefully it boils
down to the future being fixed, and freedom of choice being an
illusion. The arguments (which have been exhaustively explored in the
religious context of divine predestination) boil down to the fact that
a choice that can be predicted with 100% precision cannot, under any
reasonable or logical understanding of the term, be a FREE choice.*


back to me, albusthewhite:
This is interesting, and I'll try to discuss it in context of the WW (so as not to provoke the 
ire of the list elves :^).  I think that - at least for *this* prophecy and the events of *this* 
story, Lupinlore answers his or her own objections.  Regardless of its origins, this 
prophecy does NOT determine or predict choice with 100% precision -- it only predicts 
EFFECTS and POSSIBILITY.  An important distinction, I think.  The prophecy reads (sorry for 
the repeat): 

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have 
thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as 
his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the 
hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives..."

To my mind, this does not equate to predicting/determining choice -- there isn't a single 
actual event identified precisely.  Without getting into any of the many, many interesting 
and greatly discussed alternative readings of the prophecy, the elements are:
1. Someone (HP) is going to be born at the end of July who has the POTENTIAL of defeating 
Voldemort.
2. VM will "mark him as his equal" -- but there's no specificity as to when or how this will 
occur, or even exactly what this phrase means.
3. HP will have some power.
4. Someone's gonna die.

None of this precludes any kind of choice, with the possible objection that VM must "mark" 
HP as his equal.  But since that phrase is vague, even it doesn't really limit free will.  VM is 
NOT locked into "striking" Harry.  He could "mark" him in another, non-scar-related way.  
Perhaps VM could write a poem about how Harry reminds him of a young Tom Riddle, or 
give Harry grades in class that are the same as TR got as a student.  There's really no limit, 
given the openness of the text.  What the prophecy does do is identify that HP and VM will 
figure into each other's future.  Fate.  Whatever.

The point is, Jo has put together a really compelling story centering, as Lupinlore says, on 
the importance of choice, and that the larger issue of free will isn't compromised by this 
prophecy.

-- albusthewhite
who thinks this makes sense but absolutely MUST get back to working on his dissertation

ps - can someone please tell me how to get my post to not do the irritating line break 
thing?  The "Wrap message text" box doesn't seem to do anything -- I've tried it both 
ways.