The Falling-Out of the Hogwarts Four

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 126090


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" <manawydan at n...> wrote:
> Steve wrote:
> >Muggle-borns could be the children of peasant, farmers, craftsmen,
> >scribes, landlords, businessmen, landed gentry, or aristocrats. ...

> Ffred:
> 
> ... unless we assume that there isn't a match between the makeup
> of the general population and the makeup of the Muggleborns, the 
> proportion who _weren't_ peasants would have been pretty small. 
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Probably, though the vernacular languages were being written well 
> before this time. The Welsh ... wrote ... back in the 6th century,
> ....

> >bboyminn:
> 
> >...read, write, and do basic arithmetic would be highly educated.
> > ... this would be ... religious order ..., or ...of wealth
> >and/or nobility.

> Ffred continues:
> 
> ... In my own version of WW history, the invention of writing was 
> one of the biggest spurs to the development of wizardry, ...
> 

> > bboyminn:
> > 
> >That's why I say that everything was done by Master/Apprentice
> >relationships. ...

> Ffred:
> 
> ... Possibly also to say that there were both High and Low Wizards: 
> the High ones being the aristocracy with their own castles/estates, 
> the Low ones being the village wizards and witches doing the work of
> healers and charmers. Each in their own way would then pick up
> on any children with magical potential and train them up as best
> they could.
> 

bboyminn:

All very excellent points Ffred. 

I think we are very much in sync now. I wasn't trying to imply
anything other than both wizards and muggle-borns would reflect a
cross-section of the population. There would be no reason for
magic-born to be predominantly aristocratic and muggle-borns to be
predominantly peasants. Although, I amend that slightly by saying that
I think magic-born are probably slightly better off than muggle-borns.
I base that on the idea that magic-borns have a little extra power
they can use to gain advantage in life.

I also agree with your assessment of the general population make-up;
huge peasant class, very small middle-class, and small upper-class.
Part of the point I was trying to make in the occupations I suggested,
is that there would indeed be /some/ middle-class. Among the middle
class I would count shopkeepers, landowners, craftsmen, artisan,
etc.... I know at this primitive time in history, this middle class
would have been very small, but I'm confident they would exist. Keep
in mind that's a best guess American perspective.

I do agree that writing in vernacular languages is very old, but I'm
uncertain about the number of people who would be able to read and
write in those languages. I suspect they would be very localized, and
the number of educated people within that small group would be
substantially smaller. So, I agree the invention of writing, even if
it was in a local dialect and the number of educated people small, 
would be a tremendous advancement for wizards.

Also, a most excellent point regarding the High and Low wizards. I
think that version of speculative history is extremely likely.


> > bboyminn:
> > 
> >Which brings us to the Basilisk. Just as I cautioned against 
> > believing what people are now say about Salazar, I again caution 
> > against accepting /legend-base/ opinions of what the Basilisk was 
> > for. ....
> >

> Ffred: 
> 
> I remember some posts a long while ago ...that argued cogently that 
> the Basilisk was never conclusively described as attacking Harry, 
> its actions could equally well be described as protecting him.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ffred

bboyminn:

In another post I pointed out that given all it's many ways to kill,
that the Basilisk was basically a killing machine. But at the same
time, being a snake, I don't think it was very aggressive or vicious.
Snakes, for the most part, do nothing but eat and sleep; they really
live very boring lives. 

Any historical accounts of Basilisk killing spree, were probably
events in which the Basilisk preceive itself to be in danger and acted
defensively, or just killed a bunch of people by accident. I really
don't see the Basilisk as an animal that goes on muggle killing sprees.

In CoS we see the Basilisk apparently acting with much forethought and
conscious intent, but I don't believe that forethought or intent on
the part of the Basilisk were there. The Basilisk was specifically
following orders from Tom Riddle, and if left to it's own devices,
would have been content to mind it's own business and eat small mamals
that came wandering by. 

Back in Salazar's day, it would have done the same thing. Although, as
I have said in another posts, I think Salazar more likely would have
ordered the Basilisk to repell a muggle attack on the castle. I think
the idea of the Basilisk killing muggle-born students, is a later day
perversion of Salazar's distrust of muggles. That's not Salazar's
idea, but an irrational exaggeration by Tom Riddle.

I say all this, to re-enforce my point that we really don't know what
Salazar said, believed, or intended. All we know is what other people
with very self-serving agendas are saying about Salazar many many many
many years after the fact. 

Again, you made many excellent points. I really love this kind of
specualtive history, and what I call Logical Expansion of the Wizard
World.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboymninn