Wizard Persecution - The Thing about History...

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 126155


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03"
<horridporrid03 at y...> wrote:
> 
> >>Alla:
> >Good quotes, Betsy, but I don't see how these three quotes 
> contradict the other one. To me the question is whether wizards and 
> witches were burned  and I don't see the proof of it so far.<
 
> Betsy:
> That wasn't the question as I understod it.  I reread upthread to 
> make sure I didn't totally misread things, and what was under 
> discussion was whether or not the Muggle persecution of wizards and 
> witches constituted a viable threat.  You and Valky used the canon 
> of Harry's textbook to suggest that Muggles posed no threat to 
> witches and wizards. (They couldn't even burn them!) I brought up 
> the other quotes to show that magical folks did feel threatened by 
> Muggles. (It was a dark and dangerous time.)  Which makes the 
> contradiction pretty  clear.
> 
> ...edited..
> 
> Betsy

bboyminn:

The thing about history is that it covers such a vast span of time.

I've been struggling to determine where best to jump into this thread
with a few points I think you should all consider.

First, the peak period of persecusion of magical people was roughly
the 15th to the 18th century (1400's to 1700's). 

In addition, real history tells us that many thousands of people WERE
killed, and keep in mind that European population back then was
relatively small. There are many historical accounts of hundreds (300
to 400) of magical people being killed at a single event. The point
here is that even if muggles weren't very good at finding witches,
they were still killing thousands, and being quite hysterically out of
control were bound to get a few real magical people.

Next point, the passage from the history book which Harry references
while doing his homework under the bed sheets, is not dated. I believe
it refers to /medieval/ witch burning, that covers roughly 500A.D to
1500A.D. Between the founding of Hogwarts (1,000A.D.) and the 1400's,
the beginning of centuries of hysterical persecusion of magical
people, which was sadly fueled by the growing influence of the Church,
there was a lot of room for magical technology to develop. The Freeze
Flame charm may have been developed as a response to many previous
centuries of witch killings. 

Next, we have a /living/ example of a wizard being beheaded;
Nearly-Headless Nick. If you read his poem on JKR's website, you will
see that he was captured and beheaded by muggles. Also, how are we to
assume all those members of the Headless Hunt lost their heads?
Perhaps from falling off their horses (sarcasm)?

JKR is attempting to create her universe in the apparent real
universe. In her world, World Wars I and II occurred. The Queen is 
Elizabeth, her son is Charles, his sons are Harry and Willian, Paris
is in France, London is in England, Glasgow is in Scotland, the sky is
blue, the grass is green, and thousands of real live people were
killed in the rise and fall of magical persecusion that has occurred
repeatedly over the many many centuries. That's a fact; that's
history. The only twist in her world is that many of those thousands
killed were actually real magical people.

So, I don't think we can dispute the dangers of magical persecution.
Further, I don't think the existance of a Freeze Frame Charm at some
point in history, cancels out all other history. Nor does it mean that
every witch or wizard was in a position to be able to make use of that
Charm. Perhaps you need a wand, and only witches and wizards who were
able to retain their wands could use it. So, again, that single fact,
the Freeze Frame Charm, does not cancel out all other history.

Now to Salazar, I have already said that his fear of muggles was
justified. At the same time, I will say the it was a prejudice, a true
prejudice, and additionally, that to some extent, it was illogical and
irrational, for reasons that other pointed out. If a muggle-born
student betrayed the school to the muggles, the muggle would be very
likely to also kill that muggle-born student. 

On the other hand, this would not be the first time in history when a
parent had betrayed a child, especially when confronted with the power
influence of the Church. In real life, friend betrayed friend,
neighbor betrayed neighbor, family betrayed family; the corruption and
betrayal on all levels was rampant.

I don't see how you can discount the reality of magical persecution
when it's in our history books as well as theirs. 

In addition, while Salazar had some real foundation for his belief,
there is an undoubted element of prejudice, as well as an illogical
irrational element to his beliefs. My original point was that we need
to be carefull about distinguishing between what Salazar himself said
and believed, and what other people are /claiming/ he believed. 

Remember that even the very best doctrines (Christianity, Islam, ...)
have been and are being perverted toward selfish tyranical ends. So, I
have no doubt that there is a degree of selfserving pervertion of
Salazar's original beliefs. But at the same time, I make no claim that
Salazar was completely innocent and/or completely free of malice. Yet,
I must temper the negative about Salazar with the fact that he was
well liked and close friends with the other founders, that prevents me
from painting him as a total monster.

Just trying to keep things in prespective, that's all.

Steve/bboyminn