Sirius (WAS: House Elves and Slavery (Nel Question ## 1 & 2)

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 126555

I wrote about:

> Sirius'
> > general contempt of those he believed to be inferior to himself,
> such
> > as Pettigrew and, for that matter, his own family.  In his own
> words,
> > "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he
> > treats his inferiors, not his equals."
> 
Phoenixgod responded:
> I agree with you on the accoultration vs brainwashing arguement, but
> I disagree with you about Sirius and Pettigrew.  He's had a long time
> to do nothing but contemplate how much he hates the little rat. 

But Sirius had little regard for Pettigrew even when he was made
Secret Keeper.  Sirius specifically states that he thought it was the
perfect plan because he assumed the DEs would not use "a weak,
talentless thing" like Pettigrew.

IMO,
> they were probably much better friends than you give him credit for.
> While Peter seemed rather servile in the pensieve memory, to me that
> seemed more indicative of JK not understanding male/male friendships
> more than anything else. 

I question why James and Sirius tolerated Pettigrew, since it's hard
to see what he brought to the friendship except unflinching adoration.
 JKR has written James and Sirius as bullies, and perhaps in her view
they are magnanimous enough (well, James, anyway) to allow a thankful
sycophant to hang around with them.

Peter was a marauder, he became an animagus,
> his name is on the Marauders map, his voice is one of the chorus that
> speaks when the map is used. Guys just don't include a hanger-on in
> their plans like that that, while having as much contempt as for the
> individual that she is trying to portray between Peter and the
> others. for MPP to go to as much trouble as they do to help peter
> perform the transformation, and include him in their group and
> nickname, they have to have more respect for him than that. In my
> time, I have been in both postions, the hanger on, and the core
> group, and for peter to be a marauder, Sirus and the rest have to
> have respected him more than you and JK seem to think.

I believe that it may have been primarily Sirius who had so much
contempt for Pettigrew.  As for why they went to so much trouble, if
the four of them were in the same house, it might have been difficult
for them to sneak out at night without Pettigrew's cooperation. 
(Unlike Neville, who tried to stop the Trio because he thought it was
the right thing to do, I can see Pettigrew using the possibility of
ratting on them as a means of being included.)

Debbie:
> > I have a great
> deal
> > of trouble with his character -- how I see Sirius act in the books
> > just doesn't square with what JKR tries to tell us about him
> 
Phoenixgod2000:
> I'm curious about what you mean by that. Could you explain further?

This is based on my reading of Sirius in the books.  I'm well aware
that most of the readership does not share my views, but Sirius just
doesn't work for me as a character.  He seems more like a plot device
to me than anything else.

My problems with Sirius go back to my first reading of PoA, and the
slashing of the Fat Lady.  JKR worked a bit too hard, in my view, to
portray him as a deranged escaped convict.  While I can understand
(sort of; I'm not a revengeful person) his mania to get Pettigrew, the
attack on the Fat Lady was uncalled for.  It's not like the Fat Lady
was working for the enemy.  (Maybe portraits can't really be hurt, but
the Fat Lady reacted as if she could.)  In fact, I was so suspicious
of Sirius I thought his supposed innocence and desire for Harry to
live with him was a trap, which Harry was falling for because of his
desperation to learn about his parents.

Based on his actions across three books, I find myself at a loss to
explain why he rejected his family.  I sense that I'm supposed to
think well of Sirius for running away from home, and to believe that
Sirius' innate principles were such that he recognized the
offensiveness of their pureblood ideology, and rejects their classist
philosophy.  For example, he states, "I hated the whole lot of them;
my parents, with their pure-blood mania, convinced that to be a Black
made you practically royal . . . my idiot brother - soft enough to
believe them."  I doubt any further backstory is forthcoming, but if I
were writing it, Sirius would be first and foremost rejecting his
family (it does seem that his mother was a nasty piece of work), and
incidentally rejecting whatever ideology they espoused.  This would
allow for his inconsistent treatment of house elves, as they were so
far in the background (like a good servant) that the inconsistency of
treatment didn't even occur to him.  They weren't human.

Alla asked:
> I do wonder why you consider  those two statements to be
> inconsistent with each other. I read it as him considering ONE
> particular House Elf to be servant unworthy of attention or notice,
> not the whole class of beings, but that is just my interpretation.
> Accordingly Dumbledore's next statement "kind to House Elves in
> general" makes perfect sense to me. I mean we did not get a chance
> to see  it, but I see no logical contradiction within Dumbledore's
> words. 

The key words, in my view, are "as a servant."  According to
Dumbledore, Sirius categorized Kreacher as a servant, a class
"unworthy of notice or attention."  To me, this is a classic
stereotype of the attitude of the upper class toward the servant
class.  It has nothing to do with Kreacher as an individual.  In fact,
Dumbledore uses this statement as a springboard to make a general
point about wizards' general mistreatment of house elves and other
beings.   Thus, I think it's a correct reading to treat it as an
example of the kind of classism that Sirius is supposed to have
rejected.
   
The Kreacher-specific statements are also at odds with one another. 
Dumbledore begins his speech by stating that Sirius did not hate
Kreacher, but then tries to distinguish his treatment of Kreacher by
saying that Sirius "had no love for Kreacher, because Kreacher was a
living reminder of the home Sirius had hated."  (JKR states on her
website that "Sirius loathes Kreacher, the house-elf he has inherited,
and treats him with nothing but contempt.")  I know JKR called Sirius
"unbalanced", but this is not an example of an unbalanced character
sending mixed signals; JKR is imparting information through Dumbledore
and she still doesn't paint a consistent picture.

I also find the following statement from JKR's website amusing: 
"Sirius is very good at spouting bits of excellent personal
philosophy, but he does not always live up to them."  Based on what
Sirius actually does in the books, I'm not sure he ever tries to treat
his inferiors with respect.  We have to take Dumbledore's word for it,
without any supporting evidence.  In fact, not once but twice his
contempt for what he considered to be lesser beings (Pettigrew and
Kreacher) provided essential information for Voldemort.

Debbie
who wishes JKR had shown Sirius being kind to a house elf so we
wouldn't have to take Dumbledore's word for it