House Elves & Slavery - minus Goblin thoughts

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 126629



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at y...> wrote:
>
> I agree that more human meddling is not need, and ...we should just let 
> the house-elves get on with doing what they do best. 
> ... that thing that needs fixing is not the Elves, it's the 
> wizards.
>
> ...edited...
>
> When wizards become as honorable as elves, the problem will be
> solved.
>



a_svirn responded:

What you are saying, Steve, in essence, is that humans must take
pains to be generous and fair-minded masters rather than cruel and
abusive ones. Either way they should still stay masters and elves
should still stay slaves. You may be right IF indeed the flaw is in
the elves' nature. It seems highly unlikely though that they
have "evolved" to their slavery all by themselves. ...


bboyminn:

Did I read this sentence correctly-
"You may be right IF indeed the flaw is in the /elves/ nature."

Did you mean 'elves nature' or 'wizards nature'? I'm not sure it will
change my response, just wonder if it was a typo.

I stand firmly on the position that it IS the natural normal nature of
House-elves to serve humans. That really is their true /natural/
nature. On that we seem to disagree. 

But I will agree with your implication that the current manifestation
of the House-elves servitude did not evolve without help. Wizard have
indeed perverted the good nature of House-Elves, but NOT by convincing
them that they have to be 'slaves'. The pervertion is in House-Elves
believing they have to take everything a wizard dishes out. That they
have to accept abuse, as well as dishonor and disrespect by their
'masters'. 

I am also rejecting the human notion of /slavery/ with respect to the
House-elves. If you abuse and mistreat your kids, are they then by
that action slaves? If you make them work around the house, are they
by that action then slaves? We can say kids are different because they
have free will, but if they truly have free will then why don't they
reject the abuse and /forced/ labor? You can counter that by saying
that they are free to leave, but are they? Why do you suppose kids
stay in abusive situation? Because they are bound by their family
connection, and are for the most part, completely dependant on their
parents.

I admit that illustration is somewhat limited in reflecting the
House-Elves situation. 

If you look at the general mythology around various Helper-Elf
legends, you will see that they volunteer their services. They are not
slaves. Now JKR's Helper-Elves go a little beyond that in that they
make a bonded commitment of loyalty and service to the people they
serve; call those people masters if you will, but that doesn't make
House-Elves slaves.

So the Elves enter into voluntary servitude. I firmly believe what
holds them there in service is not a force of magic or law, but the
potential violation of their core nature, and the shame and disgrace
that comes with it. That is what we are seeing in Winky, in here mind
she has violated her very essense of being, and now can not face the
shame and disgrace of having done so. 

I guess my really point in response to your 'evolution' comment, is
that I agree wizards have corrupted and influenced that core nature of
elves, not with regard to their desire to serve, but with regard to
the Elves accepting their ill treatment. Wizard have exploited and
even re-enforced the fierce honor and loyalty of Elves, preying on and
further re-enforcing their shame so that wizards could maintain their
power over the Elves. 

It is in the normal nature of elves to serve, but it is not in the
normal nature of any species to be mistreated and abused. In short,
they DO really like the service, but they hate the abuse. As much as
they hate the abuse, their sense of honor and loyalty will not let
them leave. 

BUT and this is a big BUT, if the Elves do choose to leave their
Master and their Master's abuse, there is nothing in magic or law that
can stop them. The only tool or weapon Masters have against the elves
is shame, and if the elves are no longer buying in to that, then the
Masters can't hold them. (my speculation)

I admit that the two of us are splitting hairs and are separated by a
very fine line. The reason I reject the use of the word 'slavery' even
though the books and the elves themselves use the term 'enslavement'
to refer to their service, is because we are not dealing with slavery
in a human context. Human slaves are either kidnapped or conquered,
and forced into slavery, and held against their will for generations.
The penalty for violation of service is death. 

Elves on the other hand eagerly seek out service, and are unhappy when
it is not available. Seeking out service is the first thing Dobby did
upon being freed. Remember the penalty to an Elf for violation of
service is not death, but freedom. That tells you a lot about the
arrangement.

I can't deny that elements of slavery are part of the wizard/house-elf
arrangement. But I stop short of flat out using the term /slavery/ in
the human context because that is an exageration, a misleading
overstatement with regard to the very special and unique nature of
House-Elves. 

So, the best I can give you is to admit to /elements/ of slavery, but
I firmly stop short of using the term slavery in a human context
because /human context/ in not the appropriate or analogous context
for House-Elves.


> bboyminn originally said:
>
> I think at the core of the many Goblin rebellions, was the Goblin
trying 
> to point out to wizard how hopelessly and ridiculously misguided the 
> wizards were in trying to bring anything and everything into their 
> dominion and under their control.
>

a_svirn responds:

What a way to describe a rebellion! Talk about understatements_

a_svirn

Bboyminn:

Well, yes, a bit of an understatement. But on the other hand how many
/rebellions/ against European dominance have been based in a 'how dare
you think you can tell me what to do and how to live' attitude?

Steve/bboyminn